Star. — London, England, 1806-05-15 00:00:00

would it not have been diced, why they had not been ' difpnfed of? The Hon. Admiral here read the di. reaions given by Earl St. Vincent for repairing the flips, in which he enjoined the necefiity of working as much extra as poffible ; and by contrafiing theft directions with Mailer direelions in the year 1783, when the proportion of extra work was limited, in ferred, that Earl St. Vincent, fo far from having loft fight of the neceffity of repairing the (hips which re quired it, ax the Hon. Member would infinuate, had been more than ufually folicitous, having given direc tiosito work as much as poffible, while former Boards of Admiralty had limited the quantum and expencc of extra work. Directions, he alfo (hewed, were given to keep as much as poffible ready for fel-vice ; to have the guns mounted, and that heavy articles which were not of a perilliable nature thould be left on board. It tight be alked why the Noble Lord bad not gone to the merchants' yards, to have part of the repairs executed ? and he would anfwer, be knew too much of merchants' yards The lbips which had been built there were very bad, and on that account it was not - thought advifeable to employ them for repairs. The Hon. Admiral was proceeding to thew the expence of repairing n merchants' yards, from a lilt on the table t when he was called to order br Mr. JEFFERY, who Paid, that, wifhing to prevent the Hpn. Admiral from going the length be feemed. to incline, and to keep the matter within fome tom , pafs,he felt Liturelf called on to !late, that the Hon. Admiral's ftatements were not applicable to the mo. does he had fubmiued to the Houfe. For what he heti the.lift of repairs he was about to refer to might have taken place twenty years ago. Lord HOWICK expected his furprife, after the . length of the, Honourable Gentleman's own fpeech, that he fhpuld talk of faring the time, of the Houfe in curtailing the rpeech of soother. Whether the lift referred to by his Hon. Friend was or was hot applicable to his motion, was of little confequence.-- • One of the , charges or rather , the only eh-Inge, againft the Noble Lord was,. his not having ufed the Merchants' yards, and the lift referred to went to - They the impropriety of nfiog them. Admiral MARKHAM then returned. He was not fltrprifed that the Honourable Gentleman did not with to bear What he had to adduce on this point, as he taint( be Mime it would completely- overturn his cafe. He thin 'read the comparative ftatement of the expence of building anew, and the ruins neually expended - on repairs in merchants' yards, en feveral different Ships. On one, the repairs were ik,oool. where the rebuilding would hive colt only 7,0001. ; another to ' 0001. where the original colt would have been only 60061. ; another 13,0001. where the aal eipence was only wool. ; and particularly the 'cafe of the Lion, where the original con was only at,eool. and the repairs amounted to 6t,0001. and from all there examples he inferred, that Lord St. Vincent wits right in declining to employ the mer chants' yards. The next affcruon of the Honourable Gentleman was, that the Noble Earl had wantonly difeharged a number of workmen from the dock yards. From referring to the document on this Tub jea, lying on the table, it would be teen that the per- Cons whom he had cfirmiffed, were utterly incapable • of doing s t ay work, Tome of them being blind and others lame,•sehile, at the &Me dare the* were charged as thtiking the greateft earning. This, how ever, was called a wanton difeharge. There were In the dock yards 320 fhipwrights, not one of whom was fit for any thing, aid to whom the wages paid fortlioo-1, was z 0,94.31. whereas, if they had been placed on the fuperannuated lift, they would only have received 11,2641. Not one of them was dilkhatged enprovided for. They were ail put on the fop a annuated lift, but this was the wanton difmiffsi of I which the Noble Lord was 'mitred. It was necef fary, however, in addition, to nate what the Noble Lord did to keep up the flock. Apprentices were allowed to be taken by the moll deferring of the men, and between the years tflot and 1804 inclofire sno apprentices were taken in, a thing which had never been known in the yards before, all of whom were now fit to take a man's birth. So, when he difmilfed one let as incapable, the Noble Lord paid correfponding attention to the keeping up of the number of artificers which might be required. The Honourable Gentleman had made a comparifoo be tween the Adminiftrations of the Noble Lord, and thofe of Lord Melville and Lord Barham, pettiest lady alluding to the 'Vim" , of Trafalgar, and to thofe fince atehieved by Sir R. Strachan and Sir T. Duckworth. He did not with to force this argu ment, but unqueflionabiy the Noble Lord was the perfon who noticed the trankendant merits of the departed hero. It was he that fent him to the Nile, where he performed one of his moll glorious exploits ; and it was he, too, who fira noticed the other two gallant officers, the latter of whom ferved as Lieutenant under him. If there was any merit in thefe circomdanees, that merit unqueflionably be longed to the Noble Lord. The Honourable Ad miral then thawed the fuperiority of the fyftem in troduced into the yards by Mr. Tucker, which the Honourable Gentle Man had called a new Jangled •fehetne, and illuflrated this fuperlority, by (hewing that under it the Circe and Pallas of about fix hun dred tons each had been laid down in June and launched in November, 'at an expense of about Ono'. each. While•under the old &Clem two other frigates of too tons lefs burden took nearly two years in building, and cull 13,6031. each. The Ho nourable Admiral then alluded to the charge rcfpec. tins the want of timber in the yards which, he maintained, it was not properly the bufinefs at the Firft Lord of the Admiralty, but of the Navy Board, to look after. If they felt any difficulty in making up the quantity ordered, they communicat ed it to the Admiralty, who then, of courfe, would look into the matter, and endeavour to have the oh fiacle removed. He thawed that at the end of the American war, the quantity of timber, inflead of be ing 66,000 load., as was ordered, had fallen down to 40,000, and that in the year 1784 it had decreafid Rill farther, and amounted only to 29,000, and in the year 1786 amounted only to 15,000, all of which were to he attributed to the great quantity ufed in the merchants' yards. To fh:w the info& cicncy of the work done in the merchants' pErds, he ended to the (hips Ajax and Achilles, toe repairs on which in the.years 1803 Plld 1804, though they were then new Chips, amounted to mocol. and ar goed that the great quantity of timber confirmed in the King's Docks iii repairing the deficiencies in the Blips bulk Itt th e . merchants yards, contributed: 'much to any fcarcity which might take place in the article of timber. On the whole, the Hon. Admi , rat contended. there was no ground for going into any farther inveffigation on this gelation. Lord GA RLIES conceived that the only queßion here, and that one of the hielleft importance, was, whether we were able in the King' Yards alone, and'' without having recoorfe at all to the Merchants yardr; to build and repair all the (hips necelfary for the Britifh Navy. He knew it was Paid that we fafely might, but this he doubted, and he thould be forty to fee it once laid down as a principle that we World. If, however, he fhould be called on to give a vote on the prefent occafion, he fhouid moll certainly vote in the negative. Thequen ion was merely one of opinion, and although he differed from the Hon. Admiral oppofite, and from the Noble Lord, in his fentiments on the fobjeft, he was convinced that the Noble Lord bad aided from the belt and pureß of motives.— Some of the flatements of the Hon. Gentleman were complete truifais, but Rill he did not think his infe rences comet. Even if he did, however, be thould oppofe the prefent motion, reconciling, as he did, the ferviccs which the Noble Lord had rendered to his country. He thought there mull be Come inaccuracy about the Ratements of the expends of building and repairs mentioned by the Hon. Admiral, probably in the matter of dates; though he confined thet a there were more items which prefented themfelves repairing than in building, to furnifh the opportu nity of making a charge. He reconciled a refpedal ble builder nonfat, that if he were not employed to repair he would not build. The Aja;, of which be himfelf was the Commander, he agreed with the Hoe. Admiral, deferred every ill that could be raid of her. There never was a mote improper (hip built foi his Majefty's fervice. But Rill that did not go to the fyitem. If ten (hips were bad, the fyllem could ogt be affcaed. There ought to be a fuperictenditig •Officer belonging to his Majefly on the (pot, and it was impolnble the (hips could be fo bad ;f he did his duty. He gave it as his dilution s that Lard St. Vin cent, in his silk to the dock lards, had done a great deal of good. They now proceeded there with an energy formerly unknown. It was of the utmost importance that the head cf a department lhould dccafionany thew hithfelf. He was equally free, however, to adinit that there were irtßances in which Lord St. Vincent carried things too far; that fame perfons were difeniffed who might have been retain ed, but that many Viere properly difeharged. One other thing, which had fallen horn the Honourable Admiral. He mull notice, as it Concerned a chareaer whom every man in this country muff ever hold dear —the lite Lord Nelfon. The Honourable Admi ral had Rated that Lord St. Vincent had the merit of firft dircovering the uncommon talents of this great man. Ht agreed, that if an one quanty more pecUliarly belonged to Earl St. Vincent than ano ther, it Was i quick knowledge and feidCtion of nasal charaaer. He himfelf was the perfbn who carried out Earl St. Vincent in his (hip the Ajar, tO the Me diterranean, where they found Lord Nelfon ; and how did they find him ? With a diltinguilbing pen dant flying, the very charafter of which was to im part that the commander who Wore it had already dißinguifhed himfelf above all the relt—the appoint ment of Lord Mellon to any important command naturally followed. The Roble Lord declared he had no intention to detract from the merit of Lord St. Vitfeent, Inhofe powers of diferkdinating tVere well known ; but merely to far, that Lord Nelfon's own merit had diftingoithed hint, and that he Rood diftinguilhed, when Lord St. Vincent' joined the Fleet. Vifconnt HOWICK began by animadverting upon the conduit of the Mover And Seconder of the Motion before the Houfe. The one having finifited his Ratement, and fnbmitted.his Motion, profeffed his indifference to its fate, and the other gave his affift ance, confeffing, at the fame time. that be knew no thing of the matter. If this filbjea referred folely to the queßion, whether or not any °lipping thould be built in the merchants' yards, as the Noble Lord who had it'll fat down had Rated, he Ihould not feel it ne ceffary to enter into it. But the Hon. Mover had adduced a number of katetnents, fo calculated to make a falfe itnprefnon, that he thought it proper to fay fomething, in order that nothing Ihould go forth to the country that had a tendency to mißead the public opinion. The Hon. Mover's charges; as well as he could recoiled, leaned to be fopinenefr, negli gence, and culpable inaaivity on the part of Lnrd St. Vincent: a charge of any more againa an illußri ousperfon,whpfe reputation ftoodashigh,and in whom the country felt fuch an lomat, would, he contelred, at any time excite his regret ;but the charges now ad vanced 'spina him, he could not hear but with fur . prife. What! to accufe Lord St. Vincent of ftspinenefs! The Noble Lord who loft addreffed the Hook, had particularly dwelt upon the energy of the Noble Earl. and obferved that that energy was on fome oceafions carried to the extreme of rigour. Others had fome times laid the Noble Earl was rather vio lent. But now, for the firfi time be believed in hit II I life, that Noble Earl was accufed of fupinenefs. Is order, however, to fupport This fingulor accufation, • the Hon. Mover had entered Into various details, I hut contriving to make there details as favourable to his objea as palible, he drew all his comparifons from periods which were molt unfairly controlled.— The Honourable Mover dwelt upon the difference of uur (hipping in numerical force at the conclufion of the lag war and the commencement of the prefent, and this difference he attributed to the mal-admini : illation of Earl St. Vincent. Now, what was the fait ? why, that at the clofe of the war fetch was the Rate of our fleet, that there were only two fail of the . line aftually in good condition ; and yet, althodgh I at the commencement of this war, there were only • 36 fail fit for fervice, we had in twelve menths after : wards no lets than 88 fail in commiffion, and now we had tor, together with eight fitting out from a i Rate of ordinary. Now, if fuch is force, raj:wired' I fo Gaon after ten years war, were compared'Witli ate I force in commiffion at the beginning of the laft war, the Houfe would be enabled to judge how far hue tivity was imputable to Lord St. Vincent. At the end of the year 94 our naval force, after a long period of peace to prepare it, exceeded but by ems fail of Me' line that which the adminifiration of. Lord Bt. Vin cent contrived to put in a Rata of readinefs orgy one year after the beginnint• of the prefent writ, and after an interval of only ty months ; during tbel three years of Lord St. Vincent's addiinittration, five rail of the fine bad bob LtancHed vuerel during the two years which followed, what 'addition had been made to our navy ? Why none that was effective. Orde►s had been given to bond (hips, bat there flaps would not, even according to the contra& be ready before 1809. It was trite that come purchafe► had been made, but what were they ? sic EA It Indiamen, to (loops, form brigs, and 52 fire teffels. Of the firth, four were found unfit for (entice, and one more, which colt a 6,0001. was after a tingle voyage, dif charged as unfit for any purpofe whatever ; the In dia Company refuting to take it back again "n al- moll aoy terms; and yer 'heti %Ferrets aare h..tight at the rate of 331. per ton. Of the t.i.n brigs four were found to be unfit for fervice ; of the flo , p.• re vets ; and of the fire tenets ts. Now if thole .provideet bargains, and the fpecies of atltivity which they be trayed, were compared to the condat of Lord Si. Vincent, what inference was likely to be dray n. and to whom !bottld blame attach ? 'Lord St. Vincent had ordered eight fail of the line, and 103 veffels of men of war defciiption to be built. Of there 84, ;4 of which were frigates, were now in atqual fervice.— Very Porn indeed. so t.f the fmallett fized nails or dered by the Noble Earl would be in readied's, and this would form ag more than had been produced, of ths Ame fort, for the to years preceding his admini- Oration ; and all this was done, the Fintsfe would bear in mind, in the King's yards, which were alfo equal to the repair of 61 vefels, 40 of which were of the line. Yet the Honourable Mover alerted that it was happy for the country the Noble Earl had 'quitted the Admiralty, as, if he had remained thee, the battle of TratAar would never have been won. Bartle fallacy of this affertion would be obvious to my man who examined the papers on the table, for by none but Earl St. Vincent, had that addition been made to our Navy to which the Honourable Mover thought proper to afcrihe the refult of that glorious :engagement.—lf the fhips ordered to be built by Earl St. Vincent were not.yet laid down, if his orders were not fully executed, he begged to obferve that the ratth was in the Navy Board, whofe duty it was to have fuel: orders flailed. The Noble Vifeount anis Midverted do The periods chofen by the Honourable M6Ver for thofe comparifons as to the number of our de% which he feemed to think a proper criterion from which to judge of the comparative merit of dif ferent Naval Adminiftrations. But no criterion could be more erronbons: For inflance, he had only to obferve, that although very little merit comparatively belonged to the capture of Co many (hips at Toulon and the Helder, in the cunrk of the fail war, yet how great an addition to our Navy front thole events, compared to the Voir (hips which we had from the battle of Trafilgail We fought not, however, for flips, but to deliroy the enemy's fleets, and the Inc eels of our obje& might a' little depend on a mere in creafe in the numerical force of our navy, as that in. creek might determine the comparative merits of the different Naval Adminiarations under shich increafe mould arife. With rtgard to the propriety of building King's (rips in merchants' yards, for himfelf, he fhould ray, that not having yet had fufficient time for an enquiry upon that flabjett, he !tmid not pledge himfelf to any fyllem. But as to Lord St. Vincent, he had no hit - Italian in Rating that his conduet was perfectly jußifiable t far that Noble Lord entertained an opi nion open coming into office, that to build in met-. chants' yards Would be advifable ; but this opinion was sliflOdged by the reprefentations of the Navy Board. For the grounds of that reprefentation, the NM* Vircount referred to the fads quoted by his Hon. Friend, particularly refpelling the Ajax, Achil les and Lion. The Noble Vircount went into a cal colation, to thew that although the number of (hip- Weights employed in the King's yards amounted to 2581, while thofe in the merchants' yards amount. ed to but WI, yet the work done by the latter .ex ceeded that of the former in the proportion of three to one. Indeed Mr. Wells, an eminent Ihip builder, had Rated in a letter to Earl St. Vincent, that in hi: own yard only, more work by SOOO tons was done in one year, than in three of the King's yards. Such an inequality could proceed only from the want of Come fuch efficient regulations, as it was the great object and endeavour of Lord St. Vincent to intro- duce, and for attempting to introduce which, the Noble Perfon had incurred fo much abide. But fuels abufe could have nn other effect upon that Noble Lard, than to raife him Rill higher in the opinion of thole whole opinion was of any value ; he meant all the honed, thinking part of the coun try. That the King's yards, under proper arrange ments, were capable of doing more for the Navy than had hitherto been effected, he had little doubt, and that any reference to the Merchants' yards &mild be avoided, unlefs where the neceflity was prefliag, Teemed to be the general fentiment among them who were capable of judging upon the fubjeS. But what ever might be the femiments as to this point, it was, at all events, a mere matter of opinion, and furely that which was bet a matter of opinion could not he alledged againft Lord St. Vincent as the ground of a criminal charge. Here the Noble Vitcount cuffed that part of the fuhjett which related to the building in Merchants' yards, and proceeded to chi n:fa the Honourable Mover's allufion to the flock of timber in the King's yards, the limited amount of which, the Honourable Mover feemed to attribute. altogether to the mikotteitift of Lo.d St. Vincent.—, Now it happened that the fupply of the article relied entirely with the Navy Board. An order had been made in 1785, that a return fhould be annually made to the Board of Admiralty of the Rate of the timber in the dock yards, in order that care Ihould be taken always to keep up a fofficient Rock for three years tonfumption. Since the year 95 this order had been difpenfed with ; in confequence of which, when Lord St. Vincent came into office, he had no opportunity of knowing the quantity of timber In the dock yards. That article was, no doubt, rather limited, but not more Co than during the latter years of Lord Spencer's Adminifiration. But the limitation in both cafes prn ceeded from the fame caufe, namely, an order of Lord Spencer's, that the timber taken into the d,Kk yards fhould be mot: carefully examined. In ceafequenec of this examination, the timber of the yards became Itfi in quantity, but fo much better in quality, that he onderflood there was more capable of ore than when the Rock was flinch larger. However, as . Coon as Lord St. Vincent was appalled that the' Rock was not fo large as was deferable, he took ' merifnies to provide an adequate fupply ; with that 'kw he fought to obtain timber from New South Wass t ardenl (hips to be built In the Eaft Ladies I and had aanally contracted for a large quantity of timber from the coaft of Dalmatia. The latter would have appeared in the Houle had the late Minifter tented to the produetion of a paper moved for by his Honourable Friend in thecourfe of the lag Seftions. Bat .liat palter was refuted. But the enemy became acquainted with the objeft. That enemy, however, had now got poem° n of the provineg. and wi:h it 1.0,000 tree., which had hem aftually cut down ready to be carried to this country. As to the pro ceedings of Lord St. Vincent reipating foreign tim her, his jtth;r;cation would be Sound in the Sixth Report of the Commit]; mers of Naval Inquiry, in the hiflory of the emitiatt with Mr. L.irkin, and in the obferva:i..iis t f the Na' y Board on the Ap pendix of the Sixth Report above alltni.d to ; al thnngli that Board had thought proper on a par ticular oeciatinn to Hate, that the mode of receiv-. log timber at the deck yard , previoufly to the eniercement of Lord Spencer's regniaikn was, "on the whole, .beneficial." What was to be Paid of fuck a Board 1 but C =thing mutt be done. Had Lord St. Vincent remained ionic time longer at the Admi ralty, the probability was that the evils complained of would have been remedied—that their root would have been cut up. The Honourable Mover was per teBly right in laying that he (Lord Howick) had undertaken a great refpoafibility. He felt it, and !tumid execute the duty aligned to him to the beg of his ability. He was aware that the prefent (late of our Navy was by no means fuch as could be cleared, but he trolled to the refources of the coun try for fupplying its wants, and for upholding the flrength, the rank, and the unparalleled character whichit had fo long maintained. To do that, how ever, he felt that the moft advilable c-urfe to purfue would be that chalked out by Earl St. Vincent, namely, to root out abufes and to infufe that energy into the feveral offices, of which he was lorry, from his own experience, they were very much in want....- This deficiency had been. particularly obrerved upon in a late Report from the Comrniffion of Inquiry, at the head of which was a Noble Lord (Barham), and that Report ftated the belt mode of removing the evil to be the appointment of vigorous and softies officers in the department of the Navy Board It were much to be regretted that that Noble Lord himfelf did not aft upon this recommendation—es t in two appointments made by his Lordlhip in the department alluded to, he did not appear to have had any filch thing in contemplation. The Noble Vif. COO* di(claimed any inclination to excite the leaf! &cord. between departments which ought to aft cordially together for the public fervice. He could, indeed, appeal to the late Comptroller of the Navy Baud, to prove that his dirpofition was quite of a contrary nature. The oblervations he had made re fpeEling individualsohe Houle would feel to have been forced upon him. The Noble Vifccunt con cluded with expreffing conviaion, that DO blame could attach to Lord - St. Vincent opon any of the grounds ltated by the Hon. Mover, nor upon any other tbit the molt active of his enemies could ima gine, and of courfc that there was no reafon for going into the foropofed Committee. Colonel BASTARD replied to the flatement, that many of our west kmen were now in the Service of the enemy, by Rating that fo fyflematic was the re. Mines of there people to every thing that came from the Admiralty Board, that they dilcuffed every meafure that was propofed to be adopted by that Board, recorded their proceedings on what was cal led the tree of liberty, and even bad delegates itt town for the purpofe of treating with the Admi ralty as to the regulations which they might approve ot. Such men as thole were of a dirpolition which Might p oticularly fuit the charafter of the French at that moment, but which would induce a delibe rate body of Englifismen to think very little of the tors of fervice fo alloyed. Mr. TYRWHITT maintained, that the only fyf• tem of terror of the Noble Lord was, that which he aCted on againft the enemies of his country, cn the tath of February, for initance. Mr. OSBORNE MARKHAM, from a compara tive view of the Qatements on the table, declared that we had a greater fupply of large timber particularly, than at almolt any other period. Mr. BANKES thought, that as there was not any grave or fetious foundation laid for the charge which was intended to be brouoht forward, nothing but a difference as to fpeculative matter of opinion having been proved to the Rode, be fhould, in the words of the Seconder of the motion, with to have the quef tion s. entirely let at reit," but in a very different manner from that in which the Honourable Gentle man propofed to do it—he thould vote tor the total dirmilivi of the motion, or any further procers on the fubjeet of it. The Admiralty, however, fhould have correfled the conduit of the Navy Board. But the Noble Earl had let about the work of reform with a moft laudable degree of fpirir, which he trufted his Lordlhip's fuccelfor in office would continue to ins. glove upon. Mr. FOX agreed with the Hon. Member who (poke lad, lo far as to declare, that the Admiralty had the pov:er and the light which he fpoke of, namely, to controul the Navy Board. But, where there tam not any evidence of criminal neglaft, the natqral jultice of mot men's minds would induce them not to bring lot ward any pubic acenration, but this might be carried too far, and would have a per nicious tentlency to the interetts of the country. Mr, JEFFERY, in explanation of hie former Sate. meats, replied to many of the arguments width had been advanced againft him, and infifted on every pa fition he had before laid down. He was called to order by the Speaker, who Aiked the Houk if the pradlice of reading fpecches Was to prevail ? Mr. CANNING compared the aft to the reading of the Statements in opening a Budget. The SPEAKER declared, that what the Honour- able Member mas reading, arratcil to him to be a train of conceived argumel.r, tint a numer;cal Date. meet, merely calculated to ofiiit the memory. Mr. FOX raid, how could he know that what the Honourable r•lrtmber was reading, as his arguments, might not polObly have been the writing and concep— tion of force other perfoa, who was not a Member of rite Hoerr+ The quedion was then put and carried without a dieilion. A Vole, expreffive of the approbation of the Houk of Lord, Sr. Vincent'. conduit during Ma adniniltra tirn, was moved by Mr. foa, (Tara min 5.11 ~~