Star. — London, England, 1812-05-09 00:00:00

/ in a Bill 4 4 to repeal the SI Geo - . 11. c. 48 ; and to entitle Copyholders to vote for Knights of the Shire." The Marquis of TAVISTOCK, in seconding the inotion, declared hii opinion, that the adoption of a fair and free Representatiren of the People in Parlia ment, would do much towards removing the pretent evils under which the people laboured. He wished to shorten the duration of Parliament ; but unless the expences attending Elections could, at the same time, be reduced, the effects of such a measure would only tend to increase the influence of the Crown. —He hoped he should not to-night hear it asserted,. that Parliament could not exist without corruption. If Parliament could not be rendered quite pure, let us, for Gon's sake, do all-we could towards making it so. Corrupt practice was bad, but corrupt precept was still y:orse. The Noble Lord concluded by de. Oaring be ipconded the Motion of his Hon. Friend most cordially. Mr. W. ELLIOTT could not-agree to tht motion of his Honout able Friend ; he thought it would be to Make a desperate stake upon speculation. He was 'ln, the Constitution, in its present form, was :h would best enable us to meet those evils to e were exposed. He could not, when he sued on the Continent, agree to an impeach- Censtitution which had preserved us alone all the surrounding nations, a stay to the Tired liberties of Europe. The Honourable then entered into a review of Parliamentary j for some years back ; and obsetved, that the ican War, which, though it was a leg:11 War, his opinion, a War most adverse to equity ; however, was not put an end to by the Jut it was terminated by the purity of Par -a Parliament which afterwards introduced ;cal Reform, .and did many other public \ -t how was that Parliament treated by the t its dissolution ? with so much public grati a; had it not Ecen for the existence of this which is now so much objected to, some of 'minent members would have bten lost to the Would-Gentlemen, who now wi,lied for , as it was called, undertake to intrcduce una. into thpHduse ? There. would always be two . •ties 7 —a majority and a minority—and the wino hi always, consider themselves right. But • he said that all the measures carried by the '_were carried by corruption. The Right ,ble Member then adverted to what had been irmiagltam, Sheffield, Manchester, and other erns, not being represented. Was the House cons the representative of the country par- Wai it not the representative of the nation ge ? and bad tlfo:e places flourished less undet representation than any other part of the king , No man wished more than he did to ice the of Commons identified withthe People—but never consent to s,:e the House of Commons, about by every .gust of popular passion.— ' hostile was he to the notion of restoring 41 Piirliaments, They would operate as a corn. issolution of the morality of the People ; and lso corrupt the morals of the Representatives. change would only serve to draw the People m their industry, and. would be continually ig ill blood in the country, which it Must be 'of every . good man to avoid. It was said ...Refoim was necessary to satisfy the People.— Shen wag it that satisfy them ? Look at tings which took place some time ago at pub ans, and it would be seen that almost ' s ell the s Who met there began to dispute among than , *hoot various plans, although they all met garliamentary Reform. Here . the Honourable tan alluded to certain Resolutions, said ,to seen sanctioned by the Honourable Baronet who tresentative for Weitmintter, in which it was . that every man who paid direct taxes should vctte. The effect of such a plan wculd be to all the ancient and yeaerable usages on which ‘stitution rested for its sezurity. Not one stone ,agnificent fabric would be left upon another. .said the People called for this Reform. He , ed the People did not wish for any such change; „conceived it highly dangerous at this per ic d•ol to stir up the People to the agitation of such .ion. For these reasons he would oppose the middle was stage in doing so, he should be y a very great majority of the House. LYTTLF/TON said, he must dissent from of the conclusions of his Honourable Friend, lb he agreed in some of his premises. This „in was in its nature wholly experimental, for was no fact to go upon as a precedent. It was try to proceed on this principle—tiled the Re. :anion of the People was inadequate. He be le could venture to say, that the character of iuse had lost ground in the estimation of the and to prove this, he should quote the fact id been brought home to the Secietary for Fo. Affairs (Lord Castlereagh) : another fact was ; lision on the Walcheren question. No doubt souse was admirably constituted as to the hide who composed it : he believed no other as elected in any other way, could draw. toge large a portion of talent, learning, icklustry,, iroperty. But his wish was to rescue the 13cuse to operalion of Royal Influence. He (Mild the necessity of to many placemen sitting in to conceived it would give purity and indepen to the House, if-more men of property through ► cduntry had a right of voting. At present, hteneiof the Crown had nearly done away its udence. He was sorry to see too great an in. ice to politicil subjects prevailing among the , and hoped their vigilance would soon be use. ;sated for the benefit of their country. Hon. Mr. WARD began by complimenting zght Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Elliott) for his ad de speech. He knew that in following the Right Gentleman in his opinions, he should expose to a tide of unpopularity. The enemies of this of Reform now asked for had been continually, ?resented as the advocates of corruption ; and by , at means, the cause of the reformers gained ground the Public ; while it often happened that indivi the most active in stirring up a feeling of this only mounted on the shoulders of the people they afterwards betrayed. That House never been, and never ought to be, purely democratic. must be the case if the demands of those who claimed on the ground of rigl.t were granted. Yet *ere men who held out that Parliamentary Re- IgoUld be a remedy for every existing evil. The - US, ror it so. Con was still Oaring be most cordi Mr. W. of his Hon Make a de of opinion, that which which we looked rou went of a • amongst a almost exp Member di History fo American - was, in his that War, People, be - liament—a economica vices • yet People at tside, that; .system, w its most en country. reform, as nimit inst parties—a • ray would let it not Honourab said of Bit great tom of Commc tially ? nerally ? a such a rep dom. N( House' of he would hided al Equally Triennial plete dissc would aim Such a ch away. fray producing ' the wish that a Rel .What phi the Meetii die tavern persons seliies Abc 'for. Puha Gentlema have been *as jtepr asserted tl have a ve' tear.up al . the Consti of the ma It was .SA believed 1 and he cc distress u questioi motion, ' joined by Mr. L many of although question there was necessary presentat lieved he the Hoc Public ; that had reign At the decis that Hot viduals sembly e ther so 1: and prop from the not tee I it. He dente to out the c the influ indepenc different • people, a fully esti The the Rigf mirable Hon.•GI : himself 1 . species c represen that with the -duals. di .kind, on whom d had bees That m claimed there vie form • ... _ best criterion of the extellenee of any Parliament oil Government was, the happiness of the people. Now compare the present state of this country with what it was in former times, and with the enslaved, impo. %writhed, and desolated nations of the Continent ; and it would be found that even during a period of near twenty years war, we were increasing in prosperity and internal happiness : that we enjoyed a state of political happiness unexampled in the history of the world. This statement afforded-prima facie evidence. in favour of things as they are, against things as they would be._ He was no alarmist at the idea ofinnova tion ; but hi conceived that in all changes, it was fit to examine the evil to be removed, and then to see how much evil would arise from the means adopted to remove it. This was the true mode of discussing the present question. If any man doubted of the suc:' cess of this plan, such person ought to oppose it. As to the opinions of the people, he asked what estimate could be formed of them, when the people passed over in apathy the destruction of whole armies a few months after they had been canonizing the discoverer of female influence in the disposal of Military Com missions.— (Hear, hear!) —lt was said, among other things, that a Reform in Parliament would check the expenditure of public money. He could silt t see how a Reform would alter the financial state of the country ; and he must say, there never was a popular Assembly that laboured more to correct public abuses than the present Parliament, in the present times.— Look at the Parliaments in King William's time, and those triennial Parliaments too, and the grossest cor ruptions would be discovered to have existed then. The eyes of intelligent men in that House were al ways vigilant in finding out abuses, and no Assembly that ever existed was so free from them. With respect to what his Honourable Friend had said of the enor mous evil of the influence of the Crown, this was cer tainly the great evil he had to complain of. Yet he saw nothing in it that should incline him to a Reform in Parliament. Besides, the influence in question was so extensive, that it operated more on the Consti tuent than on the Representative Body. There was scarcely a family who dii not look up to some emo lument from the influence of the Crown—who did not expect something from the Treasury—some small rivulet from the great ocean, to fertilize their indi vidual spot. It had been asserted, that if there was a Parliamentary Reform, all cornipt influence would ,be done away. It would produce the very reverse, because theelectors were under more influence than the Representatives. In the city of London there were 10 or 12,000 electors, yet three of the Members of the City had voted that the Walcheren Expedition was a good thing. Now would it be said that the whole City of London ought on that acceuot to be disfranchised ? A House of Commons ought to speak the sense of the people, not fi om day to day, but from period to pe riod ; and he did not think it would be found' that the House of Commons had ever, for a long time together, opposed the•will'of the people. But it was not to be subject to daily changes, in compliance with the wavering opinions of a populace ; if so, it would be subject to all the dangers of a democracy --(Hear, hear),—which every ',lend to the ceun:ry should wish to avoid. In case cf such a reform, a perpetual bounty would be held out for tu r b u l ence 1 of every kind; and there was so evil he should more deprecate, than that of bringing the talents cf the country, in perpetual collision with the most power. I ful and vigorous part of the.population. When he !coked round in that House, he saw a body very differently constituted from e hat a 'House new-mo- . ; delled by new changes would be. Wi.h all its de • 1 feels, he saw in it the greatest talents, virtues, and 'learning. He saw men who had cultivated their minds, and whose morals were of the first kind ; and these' men got into Parliament through the very means the reformers cried out against so much. — His great objection to any change was, thin it wauld Admit a principle, that a thing which had been found practicably good ought to be altered. To the breach' thus forrne.l, all that was bad in the country would immediately rush. Ile didnot believe that the peo ple of the country signified any wish for this change. The people of Scotland asked for no reform ; and they were not very backward at any time in calling out for what they wanted. Ridiculous as was the i Constitution of the Scotch Burghs, he could not kind a single Scotchman who wanted to have them" over- thrown. And, he believed, the Constitution of i Scotland would continue to diffuse happiness over 1 the country, when all the pigeon-holes of the Abbe Sieyes should be held in execration. There wet C ine . ! deed moderate reformers—but let •them go to any meeting in Palace.yard, and there 'they would find their 'moderate plans scouted with contempt. His. Hon. Friend's moderate plan had been treated in 'hat way by Mr. Roscoe, of Liverpool, who stated in a book of his, that every householder ought to have a vote. There could not be a more fatal error than to concede points merely on the ground of their being fine in theory. ln all times, the persons ruling the State had to contend with things set up by fee-, 'Sous men. 'We had a great struggle to make; and the country ought to stand, not on petty compere. :Mises, but on the great basis of our ancient. usagen. If the Members of that Home should once mate ~.the acknowledgment that they were . not the COM: mons representing the People of England, the par ties to whom that was conceded, would require still further concessions.. A truce might be made ; but there could be no peace. There could be no concor dat by which the parties could mutually enter the churches of each other. From that moment the House, by giving a little, would. lose all its power, -and the parties depriving them of the same would .not regard their fate a single hour.—( !Year, hear.) — If under that Constitution, in behalf of which the Russells and the Cavendishes had shed their blood— that Constitution which the peat men of that day. deemed to be sufficient for the preservation of the country, and which was now handed down to us the same as it was made by them, he could get no Fthedy for this alledged evil, he was contented to this inconvenience, so comparatively small, 'e enjoyment of its many blessings so compara tively great. Sir FRANCIS BURDETT felt, after the elabo iate speech of the Right'lion. Gentleman, much dis trust in supporting the motion, which, however, he must consider as being founded on true constitutional doctrines. They bad been tolxl, that if the House were more popular, it would be agitated by every gust of popular opinion : and they. were also told that its great merit consisted' in resisting that potier. On the part chili people of Engine!, however, be most lay in one great claim of right to a awaits the Go, vernment, and that • right depended on their .Repre :oilman in Parliament. Instead oLahis being the case, that power was lent to those Members who were in the habit of representing the rotten boroughs, which they had very properly so denominated.— He never could allow that doctrine to be Constitu tional that twelve or fourteen thousand persons at most should return a majority of Members to that House. Rather than this. oligarchical measure should -be continued, he would be glad to see the Crown des potic at once. All his opinions on this subject of Re form had been founded on the old. Statute Laws and even Judge Blackstone said, that the Parliament was compounded of King, Lords, and Commons, and that the people had the undoubted right of fairly and freely electing the latter. This he would main tain, however violent a Reform it might be stated to be, was true constitutional doctrine, not acted upon at the present day. He might be accused again of. using violent language, but he did not use so strong as Blackstone, whom, he was afraid, would himself have been considered as a very violent person at this day. He (Sir Francis). did not consider the Great Charter as altogether obsolete, though it had been mu i. infringed upon by modern statutes. He would argue on it, and c, ntend, that Magna Charta was one• of - the dearest birthrights of Britons. He found by a Statute of Edward 111. that the people were to have a fair representation and annual Parliaments, and hi fOund, in Statute after Statute, the fair represen , Cation of the prop* in Parliament and the power of these Representatives to grant the taxes. all of which this Boronghmongering system always denied. A charge had already been brought against the re formers, that they . were never all of the same opinion; the thing was impossible to find a number of persons of the same opinion ; and indeed they knew that, on the sending abroad of armies, the Ministers • them.l selves could not agree, nor could they plan expedi. l Lions of any kind without differing very much in opi nion. According to Fortescue, it was the great ex cellence of our laws that they were madi by that -which he calls the common consent of the realm.— i3ut now there was no such thing known as that corn. mon consent in the country. The late Mr. Windham said, the whole nation was corrupt, f,cm the highest - to the lowest ; and at that time he complained of the undue influence of mea in power. He said. that this influence gave to Ministcrs the only power they had of carrying on the Government, hy insuring them of ' * majority. When reforms were refused on public abuses, and when it came to the last push, our ances, !tors were wont to draw their %words, and force the Mo- narch to that restitution of their rights which they had in vain petitioned for. Several of our Kings had been -dethroned in this way ; and one of the specific charges against King Richard the Second, was his using undue influence over the Commons. The fair representation of the people in Parliament was the only check they, 'could have on the Crown itself. He, could not conceive why Gentletnenopposite should impute to - him bad motives for his conduct ran such occasions. IThat interest could be have in pursuing any bad system equal to those whir would put the .public money in their pockets, and it they old not wish thas : any dislionolu able motives should be im puted to them, they should at least, allow him some credit for his intenriens being full as good. So far was he frcm being a reformer of a captious cast, that any reform, however smell, was sure of having his humble assistance. It had been said that in former times there was no thought of Parliamentary reform. Was it necessary to remind them, diet just after the Revolution, the Tory party, whose opinions he held, declared it to be necessary ? Their opinion was that I great• power should be trusted to the .King by prero gative, as it ought to be, for the purpose of carrying I op the Government . ; at the same time taking care to demand a fair representation. Had th never heard of Lord Halifax declaring even then t hat reform in Parliament was necessary ? nor of the Earl of De vonshire, who obj.:cted to passing the Triennial Bill Thete was nothing, in his opinion, more dangerous fur giving unlimited power to the Crown than that corrupt union between:it and the House of Commons. If they looked at the passing of the Septennial Act,. ! it would be fe — und like all other had Acts, set forth eve matter of necessity ; and only a temporary Mee.: sure, on the ground of the existence of a Popish plot in the country. He hoped he needed not to remind the House of tbe opinion expressed by Lord Chat. r' ham, that if Parliament did not reform itself Irons within, it would be reformed from without with a vengeance. He would ch .Menge any man in the House to controvert the necessity which there absolutely is of es ery now and then reforming the abuses which crept into Governments,Or when they fall into decay. -;--An Hon. Gentleman said, that a desire for a Re form did not generally prevail in the Country, be- I.cause such desire had not been expressed in Scotland; but he thought the silence of the people of Scotlafid en this subject a strong reason for the House to in -itt;re whether a reforrnecfßepresentation of that part rot a Kingdom was not, at the prewnetime parti eslTriy desirable, because all the world knew the, Anal tyranny which was exercised by Bonaparte in iFrance, while the people not only refrained from ut • tering their complaints, but some were abandoned' epough to declare themselves-and their country in a-' prosperous situation. His object was, not to !Nome' a :violent Reform, as was sometimes represented, but to restore the Constitution to its origieal purity, and thereby establish the natural means of o ur nat i cma ll defence, he native strength of the Country. At present, we, at a great expense, maintained a stand. mg army to protect us from-foreign invasion, -and riots at home, but he was sorry to say, that, whale we did so, we preserved no means of defence against our protectors. In former times, the attempti of the_ `Crown to influence the determinations of Parliament were successfully resisted; but in our times, the Mi aisters of the day had contrived to manage Parlia ment in a much more easy way than had been at-' tempted by King James the Second.—( Hear, 1084 —For his own part, he would wish the Crown to re tain its just prerogative, but he condemned .he un constitutional influence *of wicked Ministers. He wished the Crown to resume its former privilege of withholding writs for the election of Representatives, for rotten boroughs.— (Hear, Iseardsear.)—Gentlemed might cry Hear, but they could not decoy such a power to be vested in the Crown. One main ,objec-, tion which had been stated aitainst a Reform was, that if dose Dom& were minded from Veotiog Representatives, men of great political talents be excluded from sitting in that House. But no reason for coming to that conclusion, could prove, by history, that men of the c talents had been Representatives in Parliament, the mode of election was most pure, and presentatives spoke the sense of the repre. Were the same system to be again recur should enjoy the same effect, instead of sent, a few pusillanimous wretches, who danger them - selves, crying up iuternvnable the disinterested part of the community. horrors, and were unanimous in their desire Lord MILTON said, the Honourabl had aigurd this suhject with his usual Ct. but he never, when he spoke of the good oh condescended to mention the.reign in rerich stitution was at its acme of perfectien. ' dient he had hit on of allowing the King writ to whatever Boroughs he pleased, %a pletely formed for raising despotism on the wreck cf the Constitution. He contended, that Parliament was as pure now as-ever it had been ; and Ire conjured the House to pause, before it over turned the Parka. mentor) , Constitutien of the country. Sir SAMUEL KOMILLY expressed his surpesel. at the arguments of the Noble Lord, and declared a... had long thought reform necessary as a mea ns o f.' diminishing the influence of the Crown. With re . spect to the proposition of his Honourable Friend, for adding Copyholdcrs to Freeholders, and.to , lake the elective franchise from the Electors- Al Close, Boroughs, and give it to the Counties, he thcueeet • was so fair and equitable that the HOUSe could not ; object to it. It would be recollected, 1;:.d copje u kt • estates were in effect the same as freeholds. • Mr. DAVIES GIDDY was not inclined to off e r many observations upoq the motion, as ie had bees discussed much more eloquently than he could die ceps it. The Object of those who contended id sup. port of the motion, was to make the Parliament a democratic cow ; but he would defy any of the Gen. . tiemen supporting the rroposition to strew him Mac such a mode of representation would be better than .' a mixed form of Government. Hp could syn3paddat as much as the Honourable Baronet could do with the situation of the people at present. But the peer . , posed alteration would not benefit the COnstitetioaL , Such an assembly, coupled as it would be by 60 ; fancies of a variety of persons, or as was once sass pressed by an Honourable Member, " composed 4, 1 . the worst materials—the base pander of •the wont, ~ passions of the people," would never amalgam., .. with the other branches of the Legislature. If ai l .., semblies of this description did exist, it must be aem .. distance from the metropolis, surrounded andinim... guarded by an armed force ; for they would Mom . likely be apt to indulge opin i ons that the King esiC . ' a cypher. The present state of representation was . the very perfection of the Constitution, and compe e tent to all useful and necessary purposes. A demo.. ,erotical one would absorb the other branches. Could i it be said that Westminster would be worse nine; ~ Seated if it were less democratic ? Conceiving rite' . '. no, practical benefit would be. derived to the weeny from an alteration in the system of election, he should oppose the motion. Mr. GOOCH concurred with those who thought. the question one of the most vital importance. If the ~ proposition was acceded to, - the result mio'bt be at. companied by total ruin to the country. He saw no 1 good whatever that could arise from adopting it. 'There never was a time in the annals of th e coittere .. when a greater mass of honour, of integrity, A 4%, were combined in this House. He diatielhilk. the voice of the people ran counter of the opidanfl. Parliament ; at least, he could find nothing like kit; . .his intercourse with his neighbours, the i . . of the county which he had the honour to 'They were honest husbandmen, and he thou t them as fully entitled to credit as the constituents old* Honourable baronet, whom he used to meet at the Crown and Anchor, and the King's Arms, in Pse • lace-yard, and who, when other trades failed them. 'set about manufacturing speeches and patriots.ee 'Near, hear, and laughter.) Mr. WHITBREAD was anxious to deliver lii - :' opinion on the present question, although he had deal so frvuently before, and would contiuue te do it to' the end of his political career; for he was every dal, . more and more convinced of the necessity of a Par. liamentary Reform. The Honourable Member wlio . . had just sat down had told them, contrary to the ge. neral opinion, that the voice of the People was not in opposition to the decision of this House ; and,this he. had learnt from his intercourse with his neighbours and constituents. He should, however, have treated . in a more decorous manner the constitueuu of an H. 1 nourable Baronet, who might be considered as- tits . most enlightened body of electors—(rigru ofa•Mile• hatiat)—he maintained that the inhabitants of thaws.. tropolis Were fairly entided to that distinction.' val . • were not to be called a rabble.—( fire Mr. Gael AP' oiled the exprenion.)—The Honourable M. (MG' . ' Whitbread) continued :—He might not have ased die , _impression, but he had represented them as manufaib.. • qirers of speeches and patriots, Tire ticsaue# • •,. Member then adverted to the arguments of his no. nourable Friend (Mr. Ward and to the numerous . Motives, however absurd in lees, ihiclebe bat ' attributed to the Reformers ; he would not, 4f h:i .7 : -ever, dwell much on ,his speech, in hopes having his vote. A Noble Lord (Lord•M pr d is ton a ln i t ..s , satisfied with resisting the motion, had ea distrust of all those who supported 7.1 Lee cause c. , of so n tha . t be in in f g ac c t onsi thor ered men as w th h e o itermssifr ecm . .:, so tive ße :lo o s u rrn a dli e lam very peo pso p ple ieL c ( o N u ear ld is , o , l eu re r frai . haer nfrosn eoloolami rbizr .- tended that the liberties of the people would be " ger, if they were so readmitted to their just oho* . `the Conetitution—(liter, hear.) The Hosi ' man then adverted briefly to different L , ''' the speakers on the other side. He admiclad !W. some men of great talents and integrity had bawl ° ' t to the House by Boroughs, but he begged of Id s '1 e 411. consider the difference of weight attached to t its 441,;); II llaen representing populous districts . 14 s• '11,57. AMID had occasionally represented boroughs. P* estssidered it as the height of his ambition to . Norwich or Norfolk. He believed the lass NI" s p for Cambridgeshire, the present Teller of th e quer, felt precisely is the same way. l a was a natural Parliamentary *lingo aid preferred being considered as Repo people titan as delegates from a po • . . - . lents lecedsT b But he s alt because he :he greats.* Iment, whet i when Re. aesented.— " ured to , w e ti f, as at pre. incurred as 1 1 le war, while I" y• felt a ll it 4 re for peace.. ble cor.sistency ; old state*, ich the Cc.a. The exil e. I to send his as one Com.. " a - . _ `al