Star. — London, England, 1820-06-03 00:00:00

being .oppressed. The Hon. Gentleman had com pitied our present situation with that of 1792; but would any man say that the two periods were at all similar ? He must know that the pay of the military was now nearly double. Ile compared the Esti mates of 1788 with those of the present day ; and contended, that we had 5000 men instead of 3000 we had a Driver Coi pc which did not then exit, and we had also a more efficient Sapper and Miners Corps now. The state of the Empire had greatly altered. We had fifteen or sixteen new Colonies ; besides, the gun-wharfs ef the Navy, which were under the Ord• nonce Department, had been doubled. There was an army belonging to us in the lonian Isles, which ought not to be suffered to starve ; but if the Hon. Geatlenian would get them the £OOO from any other source they would be very much obliged to him. It was well known that the Government was obliged to purchase gunpowder where they could:— The consequence was, that many complaints were made of it in the American war. Government then established manufactories of gunpowder, and since that time there had been no complaints, and we had now the best gunpowder in the world. It would not be worth while to throw away the 4..%100,000, which the manufactories cost, for the saving of £lO,OOO :t-year. Mr. Clt EEVEY said, an extraordinary answer had been made to an objection which he felt an interest in, as it was similar to one which be was about to make. When it was objected that a sum should not be voted for Gibraltar, because there were other means of supplying that expense than by a vote of Parliament, it was answered that it could be made the subject of a separate motion, and this too in a Committee of Supply—(Hear, hear).—Now he (Mr. (7retwey) would not consent, on the part of the People of England, to pay for the repairs of Forts at Barba • does and the Leeward Islands: He would produce an Act of the Assembly Of Barbadoes, which pro vided for that purpose, without burthening the People of England. Mr. Creevey then read the Act of the, Assembly of Barbadoes of 1663, declaring that it was necessary for several purposes relating to the Go vernment of those Colonies, and specially for " the reparation of the Forts; ' that a competent Revenue should be raised, and that for those purposes they granted a duty 0f.4 1 / 2 per Cent. to be levied on all Imports—(Hear, hear).—What then had they to do but to apply this Revenue? He would spew that the Revenue existed. There were Papers before the House shewing that the Duties had produced £57,000 a-year. But it had not been applied to the purposes of the Colonial Act, and he would tell them why. Instead of repairing the Forts, £1,500 was given from it to Sir C. Lone ; £5OO to Sir Home Popham —('or what service from a Member on Me Mini •sterial side).—He (Mr. Creevey) did not know for what Sir Home Popham bad got it, but not, he pre sumed, for repairing the Forts ! Mr. Huskisson had another Pension, Lord Hood another, the Honour able Fulke Greville, and Lady Mansfield another, with various others ; and by these several Lords and Ladies, and Gentlemen, this Fund was swallowed up, which should go to the repair of the Forts. There was the Colonial Act creating the Duty, there was the money raised by it, and which instead of repair ing the Forts, went into the pockets of Ladies and Gentlemen!—(lfear,hcar).—This was a subject which had been before spoken of, but never discussed ade quately, because it had never been discussed by it self. The Act bore date 1663. For some time after, it was not applied as it should be. In the time of Queen Anne, the Planters of Barbadoes petitioned the Crown on the subject, and the House of Com mons addressed the Crown. Mr. Secretary Vernon, from the Queen, declared to the Ilouse, that the Fund should be thereafter applied to the repara tion and erection of Forts, &c.—(Hear, hear). — In the Civil List Act of that day, in going over the small hereditary Revenues, the 4i per cent. duties Were always excepted. So far was he from thinking that this was not a fit time for bringing forward this Subject, it was, in his opinion, the very time. They should tread in the steps of the House of Commons of the reign of Queen Anne. He was quite sure that when the question came to be understood in the country, that it would not be endured that they should vote a sum for the reparation of the Forts in the Leeward Isles, when there were funds specially for that purpose. He was sure that the country would not, without dissatisfaction, see its Represen tatives not only not apply this money to its proper purpose, but put it into their own pockets, and bur then the people to make up the deficiency. When the process was understood, it would not be long en dured. His experience gave him considerable ex pectations on this subject. When he, first made a motion in the House on the two overgrown Teller ships of the Exchequer, he was almost hooted out of the House, such was the clamour at his having thought of invading the sacred rights of property. But the progress of opinion respecting those offices, after that exposure, was speedily such, that the Noble men found all at once that the circumstances of the country were so peculiar that they could not feel jus tified in retaining the superfluous emolument, and after receiving it for nineteen years, begged to be re lieved from it for the future!—(A laugh). They knew that though there were only forty-64e Members in the House against them, there was not one man in the country for them. The pensions charged on the 41 per cent. fund was so contrary to law and de cone', that he was quite certain that when the thing was fully known the Ladies and Gentlemen would all be desirous to take their leave!—(A lave). He was happy to find that it was lately stated in the HouCe that ;1 prospective claim of £l5OO a-year on this fund had been abandoned. He had not before known the fact, but he hoped to see the Lords and Ladies drop' ed . one by one— (A laugh). He should take the sense of the Committee, and if defeated, he should divide on the Report, and if he was not then successful, he should make a specific motion on the subject. His intention was, when the vete came which embraced that item, to move an Amendment to omit the ex pense of the fortification of the Leeward Islands. As to another subject, he remarked that the confusion of the estimates of the military half-pay and civil snper-annuations was a violation of the Act of the 50th Geo. 111. ch. 15. In the Army Estimates, the expenses were, in obedience to that Act, stated sepa riaely under each head. Mr. W ARD, in reply, contended that this was not t:.e pinker time for inquiry into the application of the funds alluded to, respecting which there existed considerable difference of opinion. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER.de precated the observations made by the Hon. Member (Mr. Creevey) respecting 'a Nobleman who had re signed an office secured to him by every obligation pt justice and of right. It was a magnificent act, which ought to call forth the admiration not only of England, but of the world—(Cheers). —But it appeared. that the lion. Member took credit to him self for forcing two Noblemen to a 'resignation by the cogency and weight which his arguments had with the Public. This conduct he could not help thinking both unfair and uncandid on the part of the Hon. Member, and certainly it**as such as i•onhil be no inducement to others, who held situations, to follow the example of the distinguished individual who had so nobly relinquished his just rights, from his magnanimous regard to the public interest. But he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) could assure the Hon. Member, that the arguments he had offered on a former occasion, had had no influence whUt ever with the Nobleman in question; nor was it likely that what he had said to-night would stimu late the patriotism of any person who might be other wise disposed to make a generous sacrifice of a si milar nature. He did not envy the Hon. Member his triumph over the feelings of such a man as the Marquis of Camden—a man who would go down to the admiration and gratitude of posterity. The Right lion. Gentleman then adverted briefly to the subject of the , PA per cents. contending that they were, from established usage, .disposable at the will of the Crown—(Hear). Mr. BENNETT maintained, that the Act of Par liament was decisive on the subject, as it required the application of the funds to a particular purpose. Ile then entered into a short detail of their history, and said that a principle had been established with regard to them from which there could be no de parture. it was not worth considering what were the motives which caused the immense sum of £20,000 a-year, accruing from each of the Teller ships of the Exchequer, to be given up ; but it was quite certain that the two Noblemen who held the office, had had no thought of relinquishing a single shilling till the year after the motion was introduced upon the question. There was then an universal sentiment of disgust excited, and it was right that they had been made to disgorge the contents of the public purse—(Cheers). Lord CASTLEREAGH expressed his persuasion that the House and the country would concur in opi nion with him, that if there was any one course which more than another could discourage noble and dis interested actions, it was the nature of the remarks which had been made by the two Hon. Gentlemen on the conduct of the Noble Lords in question, to one of whom the thanks of Parliament had been voted, and the attempt thus made to blast the honour of the action, and to infuse bitterness into feelings that ought to meet with universal respect. The emo luments which had devolved on the Noble Marquis from his father, had become much more valuable than they were when received by the former in cons. pensation for the sacrifice made by him. What did it cost the Ibn. Gentlemen to make the remarks which they had thought proper to make? But what had it cost the Noble Marquis to make the sacrifice which be had made? If the principle on which the Hon. Gentlemen had proceeded were pushed, great estates would, perhaps, be found in the possess ion .of many Noble individuals, whose services to the Stator were by no means so intelligible as those of the Noble Lords in question. And yet to those Noble individuals it was not made matter of taunt and re proach, that they did not restore that which they had obtained. He thought it impossible that the two Hon. Gentlemen who had used the language to which he had adverted, could go home and reflect with sa tisfaction on their conduct. After a few words from Mr. LOCKHART, Mr. W. SMITH, and Mr. GIPPS, the Motion was agreed to. The following sums were then proposed, and voted without further discussion : For the unprovided Expenses of the Ordnance, in 1818 £50,804 19 2 Fur the unprovided Expenses of the Ordnance, in 1819 Fur the Expenses of Redaction 6,00u 0 0 For the Expenses of the Ordnance in Ireland... 111,986 2 6 For Allowances to Superannuated, Retired, and Half-pay Officers, to Officers for good services, to Superannuated Men, also for Pensions to Widows and Children of deceased Olken, &c. 302,996 1 11 For broken Periods of unprovided Sttperannua dons and Allowances 18,833 18 LI For Superannuation and Allowances to Civil Officers of the Ordnance 33,826 13 7 For broken Periods of unprovided Satperannua dons and Allowances to Civil Officers of the Ordnance 2,374 12 11 For Retired Officers of the late Irish Artillery and Engineers, and Pensions to Widows ». 11,754 3 9 For Superannuation', and Half-pay to Civil Of ficers of the Irish Ordnance, Pensions to down, &c. 4,388 1 1 Lord PALMERSTON having returned to the House, resumed the statement which was interrupted by his indisposition. He enumerated several items of reduction and increase, which had taken place, under several heads of the Army Estimates. In the office of the Commander-in-Chief, a reduction of £5OO a-year occurred by the change of the Military Secretary, the individual who last held that situation having had emoluments to that amount beyond £2OOO a-year, which was the salary of the present Secretary. The House would remember, that seve ral years ago arrear accounts remained to be settled, and that officers were appointed to arrange those accounts. Since then, arrears to a very large amount were paid in. In 1811, 216 accounts were settled, and only two remained which were not disposed-of. In 1812, 218 accounts were settled, and seven re mained. In 1813, 225 accounts were settled, and 12 remained. In 1814, 235 were settled, and 11 re mained. In 1815, 207 accounts were settled, and seven remained. In 1816, 185 accaunts were settled, and six remained. In 1817, 113 accounts were settled, and 21 remained. Upon the whole, 1399 accounts were settled, and 66 remained, on which questions were still. depending, owing to deaths and casualties. As far as it was possible for the Officers to settle the Accounts, they have been settled, and of the Arrears £7,000 had been paid into the Bank, and £61,000 had been got in from several Accountants, either by 'deductions from their salaries; or by sums paid. The whole amount of the arrears got in was more than sufficient to pay the expenses of the War Office in the years mentioned. The Noble Lord hastened through several items so rapidly, that it was impossible to follow him. He stated that an increase of 1:00,0'30 - took place in the British Volunteer service, in con sdquence of the establishment of new Corps. The present number was 25,000 Cavalry in Great Britain. In the Irish Volunteer service there was a reduction ifs consequence of the rule which prevailed there, that if the Corps were not called out to exercise a certain number of days, it ceased to exist. In the Recruiting Establishment, there was a small increase. In the Mt- • litary College, there was a deirease of £3,100, in consequence of reductions in the Senior Department. The four Professors were transferred to the Esta blishment at Farnham, with which in future they were to be consolidated, as well as fifteen Officers of the Staff. He should observe, that a more rigid examina tion would be gone into with respect to the qualifica tions of the Officers,who should in future be appointed to the Establishment of the Royal Military College.— 'The number of Gentlemen Cadets was also reduced from 320 to 290, and upon the whole, such reduc tions had taken place as would bring down the ex pense of that establishment to about £15,000 a year, an expense as little as it could possibly be, if such an establishment were to exist at all. In the Half-Pay and Military Allowance Department there was an increase of £49,807 on account of the additional number of persons placed on the Half-pay and Al lowance List, by the reduction in the Army which had taken place last year. In the Foreign Half-pay there was a reduction of £4OOO by casualties. In the In-Pension List there was an increase of £l6oo— the Out-Pension List there was a diminution of £85,000, in consequence of the number of Out-Pen sioners called into service in the Veteran Battalions. Twenty thousand pounds remained in the hands of the Agents, which was placed to the credit of the votes for the year. He stated, that reduction had also taken place in the Royal Military Asylum, and in the Widows' Pension List. Returning to the sub ject of the Out-Pensioners, he thought it might be sa tisfactory to the House to know more particulars, con nected with their return to service. The total number of Out-Pensioners, who were examined, was 15,026. — Of these, 11,253 were deemed to be fit for service on the first examination; 1862 had sent excuses on ac count of wounds and other disabilities, which were considered sufficient. Upon a second examination, the number of Pensioners fit for service was reduced to 8827 ; and he mentioned these circumstances, be cause he was aware that an unjust impression existed with respect to these men. They came forward with the greatest cheerfulness, and many of them expressed their gratitude for being restored to a sitbation of active service. The whole expense of the Battalions formed on that occasion was £360,000, which was the increased charge. But from this should be de ducted the £85,000 saved in Pensions, £35,000 saved in the pay of Retired Officers, who were placed on active service in the Veteran Battalions, and £12,000 saved in the Half-pay List on the same account.— These savings, amounting to £132,000, should be deducted from the £360,000, and it would thus ap pear that the real increased expense was no more than £228,000. And from this total a further re duction was to be made, as clothing which bad been already in the stores was made available on the (se casion, by which there was a saving so as to reduce the total to £224,000. He did not now mean to go into any argument to prove the expediency of the determination of his Majesty's Ministers to raise these Battalions. The motives of the measure were noto rious, and were justified by the events which had taken place since the 16th of August last—(Hear, hear).—lf those events did not satisfy Gentlemen as to the propriety of that measure, no eloquence which he or any other Member could use would convince them. The Noble Lord concluded with proposing a Vote of £3,425,300. 18s. 3d. for his Majesty's Land Forces, consisting of 92,224 men, including Officers and Non-commissioned Officers, exclusive of the In dia service. Lord NUGENT objected generally to the conti nuance of such an immense military establishment in time of peace, and under the distressed circumstances of the country. It was defended, indeed, upon the ground of discontent, but, according to that argu ment, it was easy to create a circle which would go on for ever increasing the military establishment.— The discontent arose from distress—distress from presiure. Nov, every addition to the standing army, increased the pressure on the country, the pressure produced fresh discontent, and thus the increase of the army would only go to render new additions to it necessary. It was, in cinch, a race between dis affection on the one h and,: and military force on the other; and, for his part, lie feared equally the final triumph of either. He wished the Noble Lord oppo site would inform him whether it was intended, as had been rumoured, to call out the Militia in August next? I-1; understood that ballots were going on in the country with that view. He wished also to know lhow far the Yeomanry Cavalry were increased from last year? He was aware that the present number was twenty-five thousand. Mr. C. F. PALMER made a few observations upon the uselessness of the Driver Corps. He stated, that the horses belonging to that corps were seldom used in the public service, and that in Wales they had often been seen harnessed to private carriages and waggons. Mr. HUME thought a Committee should be ap pointed, to inquire into the number and discipline of , the troops. The number of the Guards had been increased, and the expense of each man was equal to £l4O yearly. The expense of building the new Military College could have supported that at Mar low. By the Estimate it appeared that the expense of the Colonial Establishments was nearly equal to that of Great Britain; though much of it might and ought to be defrayed by themselves. Up to 1814., the pay of Commander-in-Chief had been only £9 per day, but it was now £lB ss. 9d. The reason then given for the increase, viz. the increase of duty, called at the present time for a diminution. The expense of the Staff at head-quarters was £30,033, and a reduction ought to commence there. The salary of the Judge Advocate had been raised, on account of the increase of duty, from £2,040 to £5,000. As the additional duty had ceased, the salary should be reduced to its former amount.— Out of £14,203 charged for Malta and the lonian Islands, only 0,680 was paid' by the Islands them selves ; though Great Britain was only bound to pay the troops if they exceeded 3,000--£14,000 was also paid for the expenses of the Civil Government of the Islands. He did not wish the College at Sand. hurst to be abolished, but the expense to be reduced. In the course of four years only seventy-six Cadets had received commissions r and, taking the expense for three yeari to he £iB,ooo, the education of each Cadet made available for the service of the country, was £1,040. The expense of the Military Asylum should .also be reduced in time of peace ; and, if Officers on the half-pay were placed en full-pay when commissions fell vacant, the half-pay would be saved to the Public. If the Noble Lord was sin cere in his professions of economy, the Estimates for next year might be reduced some hundred thousand pounds—( Hear, hear). Colonel DAVIES was by no means disposed to enter the lists with the Noble Lord, upon all his statements,. but, under favour, he wished to ask him one or two questions. Was any arrangement made yet as to the manner in which the Army was in fu ture to be furnished with medicines? A person called the Apothecary-General, who had a patent for serving the Army, had.lately died ; and as this patent mode of furnishing medicine to the Army was some 50 per cent. over that which the Ordnance, and other branches of the service paid, he expected there would be some reformation in it. Another question he wished the Noble Lord to answer was—what services the Staff Officers did in the lonian Islands, who were under par? He understood there were no Militia there, but if he was mistaken, he would be glad to be corrected by the Secretary at IVar. Lord MILTON observed, that the tirrce for MO was 11,000 men more than that of 1519, though there was nothing in the Estimates before the Committee to draw their attention to the circumstance, which he thought a little extraordinary: . Colonel TRENCH said, that with respect to the application of the funds of the Sandhurst Establish ment, he was willing to leave .hat subject in the hands of the Committee of Education. As to the policy of the establishment itself, he considered it of solid advantage .to the service. The troops both abroad and at home were more efficient and less offensive, if instead of I , eing under the command of raw boys, they were commanded by men of solid attainments, grounded on professional science.— (Hear, hear).—The gallant Officer next pronounced an animated eulogium on the conduct of his Royal Highness the Commander-in-Chief, and on the talents and perseverance of that Illustrious Person, with re spect to the Army—(Hear).—Every soldier knew, that to eradicate bad habits, and to implant good ones, was a most difficult task—There was not, however, he believed, a single individual connected with the Army, from the great General,- who was justly considered its right arm, to the humble soldier, that would not be ready to offer their testimony of esteem for his conduct—(Hear, hear).—When the very arduous duty of his situation was considered, the pay would not appear disproportionate to the la bour(Hear, hear).—As to the system of education pursued at Sandhurst, it appeared to his mind unex ceptionable. The young Gentlemen were educated in mathematics, the modern languages, and ancient and modern history ; they were taught to value the genuine principles of British liberty; the daily news papers were allowed them, on the contents of which they were at perfect freedom to indulge in every ob servation they thought fit, and yet this_ was an In stitution which was called a nursery to tear up Janixaries for future despots!—, Hear, hear). — He looked also to the Institution as a monument of national gratitude erected to those heroe., vho had fallen in the service of their country—who had ex alted the glory of the British name, and ensured the security of the British empire—(Hear, hear).—He could quote more than one instance o- i bi ave sol dier dying on the field of battle, and, while drawing his latest breath, reflecting with pleasure that this In ' stitution was open to receive his children ! (Hear).— ' To those who thought that the children of soldiers who had thus fallen should be provided fCir, it would be pleasing to learn, that from nine hundred to one thousand had been educated in this Institution since its establishment. It %( as. not ton much to say, that they had been rescued from vice and ignorance. He looked upon them as the children iof the Nation, and trusted that their welfare would never be nzglected by their country—(Hear, hear).—.The Cadets who had left the College had served their country faith fully, and if ever the occasion should arrive, they would prove like arms in the hands of a giant! (hear). Mr. BENNETT was induced to make an observa tion upon the Opthalmic Institution, in consequence of the praise with which the Secretary of War spoke of the mode in which patients were treated there.— He had in his hand a Report made under the sanction of the Commander-in-Chief, by Doctor Sir James M'Gregor, and Surgeon Franklin, entirely at issue with the statement of the Noble L ord, but to which, from the circumstance of its being made by medical met, and the subject being diseases of the eye, he gave more credit than to the Noble Lord's statement. He was aware that a clamour was raised of a conspiracy being on foot in the profession, against Sir William Adams,,but it did not follow that because these Gen tlemen did not applaud his mode of treating patients, that they, therefore, conspired against him. There were other Gentlemen concerned in the inquiry be sides medical men. It was not to the expense of the Establishment he objected, for that was but trifling, but the question was, whether it was likely to do any good? The abstract of the cases which came from it, did not speak much in favour of it.— Taking one abstract, he obierved, that fi fteen .pa tients - had been examined, of whom six were im proved, six remained in the same state, two said they felt better, and one had his right eye put out, though by the operation the other was improved—(A lavii.) It was the recommendation of the Commander-in- Chief, that no operation should be performed upon a soldier, • unless there was a consultation of more than two Surgeons upon the case. He hoped the Noble Lord would see that his order was attended to. It vvas stated by Dr. M.Gregor and Dr. Frank lin, that a number of pet-sons had deserted from the establishment. It was, indeed, very natural that men having seen other persons' eyes pia out before their faces, should run away whilst they sere yet Ale to preserve their own ! Mr. GOULBURN, in answer to what had been asked respecting the duty of the Staff in the lonian Islands, stated, that there-was a Militia there, and that the Officers of the Staff were regularly engaged in looking after their discipline. Ile enured into, calculation to shew that, with regard to the Colonies, there was a saving since last year of A:11,00Q.