Star. — London, England, 1827-06-08 00:00:00

* • • • ' ttlirctions wit P ot . ' gocia - also asked . . sea of the* iding for the expenses iticurti British Commissariat in Portugal had been e pftpet? whether the Portuguese Government' the itlirrerry accounts, and paid the meow whether it had been carried to Our criat t Viscount DUDLEY and WARD said that thescauses which had prevented him from laying Papers relatively to Portugal before the House, still existed. As to the other point, he believed that the method of carrying the money to the account of the British Government had ~~. • been preferred. Latd ELLENBOROUGH saw, from the returns on their Lordships' table, that the sums,..spent for secret services during the last four years amounted to 205 . 0001. whilst for the four preceding years it was only 145 0001. mat in g an excess of more than 50,0001. though about 1820 (here had been no less than three revolutions on the Continent. In that year the expenditure in secret service money was 50,0001. whilst last year it was 68,0001. It also appeared that the sums expended within the last four years exceeded by 23,0001. those voted by Parliament, which rendered the Appropriation Bill a nominal and delusive precaution. He also wished to know whether the Noble Viscount would object to give the returns of the service of the secret money up to the present period, as those laid on the table came down only to the 2d of December? Viscount DUDLEY and WARD put 4t to the Home how it was possible for him to answer the questions of the Noble Lord without going into a public detail ore secret service, the very nature of which differed cots pletely from every other. There was no doubt that the country was entitled to every information re specting every branch of public expenditure; but from the nature of this service, it must be, and had always been taken as an exception. And if the per son under whose controul that 'service was placed was not to be trusted on his honour and his oath, the proper remedy was not to inquire into the de tails of the expense, but to come forward and address the Crown to dismiss him. As to producing returns of the issues of the Exchequer op to the present time, he had considerable objections; for by giving such Returns for short periods, a clue might be furnished to the manner in a hicis that money had been employed which might be injurious to the public service. Yet as they had been produced to the end of last year, he should not refuse those for the first spatter of the pre sent. He also thought himself authorised to state that the apparent increase of service money arose from the fact that a larger sum, about 14,0001. remained on hand at the close of the last, than at that of the pre ceding year. At this period of great political differ ences, when men were judged, not on their acts, but according to every idle tale and rumour in circula tion ; one had reached his ear that some part of the Secret Service Money had been used to b'nd the Press. In point of fact, be could not answer the question of the Noble Lord if he would, for he could have no cognizance of the application of the Secret Service Money before he held his present situation.— At the end of each year the account was sworn to by the Secretary for Foreign Affairs at the time being, and no record was preserved. He had, however, inquired, and found some of the accounts still in existence, and the inspection of those documents had left the strongest possible conviction in his mind, that as to the money, which had not passed through his own hands, not one shilling had been applied to the purpose of binding the Press. He had thought it his duty, in justice to the character of a public individual, now holding the highest office in the Government, to say thus much.— The Noble Baron had also stated that the Expenditure did not correspond with the Parliamentary Grants.— He understood that when the Expenditure had exceeded the Grants, it had been met by some former accumula tion and surplus. Lord ELLENBOROUGH said, that in looking at the account before the House, he found no such sari plus, but an eternal deficit, growing even larger as the number of years increased. His Noble Friend would, no doubt, manage that service with the greatest in tegrity, but still it was the duty of a Member of Parlia ment to look at every kind of expenditure with jealousy. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY wished to know, if these was any objection to explain what proportion of the secret service money was spent at home, and what abroad? Because, if he was rightly informed, in the course of two years 60,0001. had been spent at home as secret service money. Viscount DUDLEY and WARD should really be glad to answer those questions, and could only be pre vented from doing it by a sense of public duty. He assured the Noble Marquis, that if from his silence he should draw any inference unfavourable to his prede cessor in the same office, he should form a most unjust and unfounded suspicion. But he would not consent to admit any imputation on the character of that distin guished individual by answering questions, which in the utmost conflict of party violence bad never been an swered before. Viscount STRANGFORD apologised to their Lord.' ships for presuming to address them. The whole course' of his life had been so entirely, and he would almost say, so fortunately unconnected with politics, that ha , should be the last man to intrude his opinion upon the' House. The eaperience, however. of twenty-five years' residence at one half of the capitals of Europe harli given him a practical and technicil knowledge of dm subject, and neither knowing nor caring whether it was a question of pirty or not, but feeling wholly indifferent which ever side his opinion might please or displease, he should obey the plain dictates of truth and justice.' He had never known a man, and he had served under nine Secretaries of State, who had exercised a more minute, scrupulous, vigilant, or efficient safeguard over the administration of the secret service Money than the Right Hon. Gentleman lately at the bead of the Foreign Department. He had been under his command at five different Courts, and as human nature was human na ture still, occasions had arisen for calls on the secret Money, and he repeated he had never known a Minister more cautious in the employment of that money, or who attended more strictly to the principle that the public money should never be spent without an ade quate paid pro qao, than the distinguished individual to whom he had alluded. He had now done his duff; , for what a man owed to truth and justice, ought to 4, %sprain to all feeiings and all considerations of party. noun LA w 5. rtsionnt GODERIdi rose, and moved that 'their _ _ Lordships should resobe themselves into a Committee' on the Corn Laws. , , The M argots of-tChbIDONDtRRT, before going into', a Committee, wished to kniiw, erlintlfer it was true, that' certain: Noble•Lotds who had baled Tor the smendment le Duke the other night, when the noise Nab . obliged gesting a measure- than which none could be more calculated for utterly subvesting the landed interests of the counts y—(Loud and continued cheers). Lord ELLENBOROUGH said, the N .ble Baron ought to have distinguished between a suggestion and a recommendation, before he gave expressi..n to his' di►approsation.—The amendment was withdrawn. The Earl of WESTMORLAND felt called upon ] 'to make some observations on the Bill before their Lordships. As far as he could collect from the opinions df his Noble Friend, now unfortunately absent, and of his Noble Friend opposite, he was bound to believe that they intended the Bill then before their Lordships as a measure to prevent the fluctuation of price, and tha► the point at which they thought the price ought to be kept was about 60s. per quarter. At the present moment the price was gisatly below it. We were within two months of the harvest, and the general impression was, that that harvest eras a must promising one. It must be 'admitted' also, that the agricultural interests were labouring under distress. The season hitherto had been `most severe. The cattle were not in a 6t state to be sentlo market. Wool was at a ruinously low price, These circumstances naturally brought down the price of grain for, : when other artifles were unprodoeti+e, the farmer was obliged to briog his corn to markatii 'Hence the present depressed state of the corn Asit. Yet, under all these circumstances. the Bill would' to not only to permit the introduction of 600,000 *ratters of foreign wheat, but throw open our ports the whole of Europe. The consequence would be itbat, unless the general importation of foreign grain should be, in some degree, prevented, great injury must result to the agriculturist. For the sake of the country at large, he, therefore, put it to his Noble Friend (who had, no doubt, the safety of the country at heart) to prevent such an evil. The Noble Earl here proceeded to contend that, as the holders of the 600,000 quarters of foreign wheat, now in bond, had some claim upon' the consideration of Government, it would be only po- litic that that grain should be got rid of before the Bill `should be brought into operation. The warehousing system was most objectionable; still he was of opinion that the grain already warehoused ought to have a preference over that, to permit the importation of which the Bill was intended. Lord GODERICH said, the only species of corn which was likely to be imported now was oats. The Earl of WESTMORLAND resumed.—His wish was, that the Bill should act immediately, with respect to all species of grain now in bond, but not with re gard to any corn to be imported until after the expira tion of six months. After referring to the care which Government had taken in all former Bills, to prevent injury to the agricultural interests, and recommending similar attention in the present instance, the Noble Earl said, he bad a proviso to suggest, which, he thought, would attain the object of the Bill, without producing ruinous consequences to the agriculturist, namely— " Provided also, that, from the 15th day of August, 1827, it shall be lawful to the importers of warehoused wheat and other grain, to enter and warehouse foreign corn for home consumption, under the provisions of this Act; and that the provisions of this ♦ct shalLtake effect, with respect to all kinds of foreign grain se'imperted, on and after the Ist January, 1828." He hoped he should not be supposed to intend injury to the princi ple of the fill, by recommending the adoption of that suggestion, which would, in his opinion, enable Go- vernment to take the necessary steps for the advantage of all the parties interested. Lord GODEBICH feared that the proviso of his Noble Friend, if adopted, would be encompassed with technical difficulties. It would postpone the period for admitting corn to be imported on payment of certain duties, and so keep those duties which were granted by the Bill out of his Majesty's Exchequer duting that in terval. He knew his Noble Friend thought that the amendment might be easily effected.—(Lord Westmor land—fe No, insert it in the other Bill.") He (Lord G.) feared, that if it were inserted in the average Bill, it would be liable to the same difficulty. There cer tainly was a clause in the Bill, giving the power to Parliament to amend it during the present Ses sion; but he feared, even if the (proviso were adopt ed, it would fail to effect the purpose of his Noble Friend. The object of his Noble Friend was, that all the corn bonded before the 16th of August should be admitted into the market. Now, it was clear that in the period which would elapse between that day and the I.t of January, that would prevent a competition between the corn in bond and that imported from day to day ; but in the mean time the importation would be going on, and on the Ist of January the same difficulty would exist; and the double competition between the warehoused corn and that daily imported, which his . Noble Friend considered so dangerous, would still take place. He did not think, therefore, that the advantage arising from the introduction of this proviso would be commensurate with his Noble Friend's eepeetations.— Withvespect to the measure of 1825, thiir Lordships would recollect that they were then only dealing for once with a definite quantity, and were not making pro vision for the future admirsion of an unlimited quantity. For these reasoiss,.he could not bring himself to ac quiesce in the opinion that any advantage would result from the adoption of his Noble Friend's proviso. The ERA of WESTMORLAND explained. The Earl of MALMESBURY hoped that his Noble Friend would turn his mind to this subject between this and the time when the report would be brought up, in order to devise some means. if possible, of avoiding the evil pointed out by his Noble Friend near him. For his, own part, he admitted he was unable to suggest any thing on the subject. The Noble E4rl then objected to the present clause, which he thought ought not to have been introduced into the Bill. The Earl of LAUDERDALE complained that ;he wording of the clause rendered it confused and unin telligible. Lord GODERICH was not reconciled to the intro duction of his Noble Friend's proposition ; but he bad• no objection to consider if there was any mode of accom plishing his object. The clause was then agreed to.—On the reciprocity clause being read, Lord ECLENIiOROUGH said he recognized the hand of Mr. Jacob in this cl.u%e, and he complained of the incon.istency of the Presid, nt of the Board of Trade, as it bad .beep ►hewn in his arrangement of the details of foreign shipping, in the proceedings on the recipro ci►y of Doves Bill. The Noble Lord then went into a variety of statements. to prove the decline of interest red by Britih shipping:, and the advancement of . of the nations of the Baltic. Lord OODRRICH defended theylause. The Duke or WELLINGTON justified the clause, grounds of general policy, as all Governments , must ,see the power left with them of arranging the tariff, upon terms which might secure to their subjects recipe°, cal advantages. The Bad.sibIALIIKSBURT and Bari ST&NHOPI3 the chase. which was agreed to. Lord TETNia moved a new clause. avowed IV tenuity upon a year's notice. to void their leases. Lord GODERICH objected to the clause, beca use the Bill was of so public an import that it 0.11 Id not b e in any way made applicable to private contracts . The these was then negatited.—On the au • eeeedlog clam of the Om, The dad or IIaLIMQSBiIQT moved that the rite of eat, which had bees bud as Ike point of remuneration, s h ou ld b e gas agitated by 061. Lord GODERICH admitted that it was not po ss ibl e to secure to the farmer any fixed price, as it must a l ways depend . upon the seasons, and a good season w ou ld effectually prevent him from tinaining 60s. per quarter for his wheat. In 1619 t.e had looked upon 80s. settle maximum, and in the present instance be.looked on 60 1 . , in the same light. The reason why 60s. had been chose* as the point of departure was, that it now bore the same relation to the price of other commodities that 80s. bore is 1819. Sixty shillings was 25 per cent. below the p r i ce of 1819, and no less than 28,000,0001. of taxes had been repealed since that date, which wasll,ooo,oool. more than 25 per cent. upon the whole amount at tea , tion in 18/9. The change in the currency was also to be taken into codsideration, as having produced a most material effect upon agricultural produce. The Earl of MALMESBURY [miller explained the object of his Amendment. Lord LAUDERDALE remarked upon the fact, do certain of his Majesty's Ministers not only spoke speedo for the benefit of their colleagues, but printed them afterwards for the benefit of the public. One disad vantage, however, was, that one part of the printed and corrected speech could be contrasted with another ; and in a certain address on the Corn Laws 60s. in one place was talked of, on the authority of Lord Liverpool, as the price that ought to be secured to the grower d wheat, while in another paragraph it was said that the protection to the farmer ought not to exceed 55.. la short, any man who read the speech, and compared it with the Bill upon the table, would see that the pres sure was nothing else but a juggle throughout. He supported the Amendment of his Noble Friend (Lord Malmesbury), because it went to defeat the object of the Bill, the principle of which was to render this country dependent upon foreigners for a supply of the first necessary of life. The Earl of DARNLEY adverted to the Amendment of a Noble Duke (Wellington) adopted on a former night; and gave notice, that on the bringing up of the Report on this Bill he would move, that the price of 661. be applicable only to the corn actually now in bond, but not to the wheat to be imported its come. queues of the passing of the present Bill. He admitted that the fiat was only a just protection to the farmer against a sudden inundation of foreign grain. The Marquis of BUTE was of opinion, that the 010 ject of the framers of the Bill was, that the price of wheat should not fluctuate below 555. nor above 655. per quarter; and if it had secured to the grower a price of 62eor 695. he should have been satisfied. As, how ever, it would secure no more than 581. or 595. the Noble Marquis supported the Amendment of his Noble Friend (Lord Malmesbury). With regard to the Amendment of a former night, which had been carried, Members of this House who did not wish to vote could not, like Members of the other House, accept the Chi'. tern Hundreds they could not retire from their duty, ad were bound to discharge it, heedless of all copse. queues. The principle of the Bill he did not oppose; heonly objected to some of the details. Lord REDESDALE argued at some length against the principle of the Bill. There had gone forth a voice in another place saying, that the landed Pr ioress must be put down. Such language, be would contend, was the language of conspiracy ; it was re volutionary ; it was the language of the London Cor responding Society. Lord HOLLAND rose to order. Their Lordship must see the inconvenience which would nosh to the debates in that house by any allusion to what passed in the House of Commons, which could not but tend tp raise disputes between the two Houses of Parliament. Earl STANHOPE said, that his Noble Friend had said nothing about the House of Commons. Thou words had been put into his womb by the Noble Bruce He was surprised that a Noble Lord who had been so long a Member of that House should deliver his opinions in so dictatorial a tone, and he was sorry that the able address of his Noble Friend had been so interrupted. Lord HOLLAND understood the allusion to have been made to what had pissed in the House of Com as, and he was quite sure that the Noble and Learned Lord would be the fint to allow that any such allusion was contrary to the order of that House. Lord REDESDALE continned by expressing his hope that the Noble Lord would not call him to order merely because he stated his disapprobation of the language of the London Corresponding Society : " Liberty, Equality, and no Corn Laws," was its motto; and such were the terms repeated and re-echoed by the enemies of the landed interest. The whole plan, indeed, was ridiculous and wrong. It was impossible to conquer nature; and if it were attempted so to. do, " the winds and the rains would laugh them to scorn, and the frosts and the snows would hold them in derision." The Earl of HAkROWBYaaid, if such words as had been made use of by the Noble Lord (Redesdale) had been introduced into the speech of any Gentleman in the other House, still they ought not to have bee° quoted in that place ; neither would he give credit to their having been made - use of in the other House of Parliament, until the Noble Lord said that he himself had heard them ; because he thought, if such had been the case, the person so making use of them would have been pot down by a general cry of indignation. Tbe object of Government, in bringing forward the present measures, was not to influence the winds and the rain+, but to endeavour to secure to the agriculturist and mo nufacturer a sufficient supply of corn at as undeviating a price as possible, and to protect them against thew fluctuations, the ill consequences of which had, t ern so grievously felt, and which the existing laws bad bec 3 unable to provide against: 11 they thought the measure fraught with tho e revolutionary principles attribut ed to it by the Noble and Learned Lord (Ltedesdale). 131 ; if they thought, from their experience • ' the hietoi _ the past, that it would have the i , , f it, !` ri r I 1 2 $ $ • I, c ~ 4 3 . admit at 1! , • suished the cum :wend t 1 VISCOI ships for t of his li say. so . should 1 1 • Houie. „ resident A • given hi l'i 1, subject, i • ; 1 question which e ' he shou. , ~ il' He had . • I'. r nine Set / 1) ' minute, the ado-. Right I- Departt differen' cure stil ~ • money, 1 more ea . who att . , public 1 quate i • • . to • w h ot •fot. wha imperial rtsec i ?1$ • Lordshi cm the I 1' ! V.i: The b 1 4 a Come : •I'l 1 . certain. 1 • of a No . . • • .. 4 , •• . • ... • . 4 4 thi of pending ne• in a similar Coming(*) had. sat was said. receit how the artier raiatiotl tbatithay wore no loniat to ransain hicnrted by the okay's household, if they did pot sate in the it teen caried inlet Gosternment dished ? Is he understood, that lent had vet i6wit ayes hod , beep rewted to, in the progress of a mount to us, or intimidate Noble Lords in the execution of tbtA Itt it "he had thought fit to mate it known, and to ma' 1 that thescansrs ther inquiry into the subject. iOd sierra. 'risk& hid been adopted was adeastagf iq m;sy variet itt Ids smqllBcemhossamely s that ofoherocivernment..in times vaffeil way the of sanity, making salmi of ramie theirovau silkier's. that o it such He did not recommend it fotadogtion hire, bus magi) Lon BM, to threw: it out as a suggestion. . fhi kr duty. Lord' HOLLAND' said, their Lordships- must cer- on gr' Ike far- thinly be much obliged to the Noble- Lord for sue . hare ^"^ lenge of the biota/ y eficcts luniciparo Di . a Bill L. to stoke ry subject. tt.GODEItICH said, that his Noble Friend the first nstanceever known, of one calling a the Ministers of the Crown, to ascertain what advice they would give to his Majesty, before that advice had been given? He, for one. wonld not so far injure the King s•prerogative ' as to answer that question. It was Of the prerogative of the King, to appoint whom he Ipleased to fill the situations of his household , and to re . *ye them whenever it was his pleasure. He did not ;consider it a part of . his duty to explain the way in which iris Majesty exercised that undoubted prerogative, but Ise coulai refer his Noble Friend himself to a case in which no such explanation was given—(Hear, hear). The Marquis of LONDONDERRY explained that he had not asked if such intimation would be given, but if it had been given ?—;(Hear). The Earl of DELAWARE said, in consequence of the vote ho had given on the amendment of the Noble Duke, the other night, be had alto thought it hia duty to give up the situation he had held is his Majesty's household, and that without his having received any intimation whatever to that effect.—(Hear, hear). The Home then resolved itself into a Committee on the Corn Laws. Viscoi After several slisln alteration had taken plane in min dames, Lord REDESDALE wished to know if she isle of den was to be considered part of England or Ireland ? Lord GODERICH said, that he thought it would be necessary, as heretofore, to introduce a clause to consider it as part of Great Britain. On the clause with reference to the Islands of Jersey and Guern sey being reml. The Earl of MALMESBURY objected, that free importation being allowed into those Islands, it would be necessary to restrict the exportation of grain from thence to Great Britain. Lord GODERICH said, the rights of the Islands of Guernsey and Jersey were secured to them by Chaster. By it they were absolutely entitled to import into this country the whole of their produce, and it would be a direct violation of their chartered rights to exclude their productions; convinced of that fact, it bad not been deemed advisable to introduce the mention of them into the Bill. It was very true that the inhabitants of those Islands might, if they pleased, send into this country the whole of the corn they grew. and undoubtedly they might supply themselves with foreign corn, and thus throw into the markets of this country a quantity of grain equal to their own consumption—stilt there was no probability of any great injury arising out of that power; for, in the first place,.there 'already existed in those Islands, a very rigid law of their own, to prevent the importation of foreign grain; and it formed so part of their own policy to avail themselves of the opportu nity of which the Noble Lord was so apprehensive.— Their Lordships might recollect, that when the Act of INS was in progress, the inhabitants of those Islands protested against any measure which would go to faci litate the introduction of foreign corn into their own ports. It would be agreat wrong, therefore, to violate their charter, for the purpose of imposing a check which it was not at all likely would be required ; and there was no mode by which corn, the growth of those Islands, could be excluded from this country, without a gross violation of their chartered rights. The Earl of MALMESBURY said, the inhabitants of those Islands might, if they pleased, establish an eatrepot, and carry on an importation trade of foreign grain, which corn they might re-export to this country. Lord GODERICH said, there were various custom house regulations (such as certificates of . migio, &c.) which would prevent the possibility of the recurrence of she operations referred to by the Noble Earl. He was sure his Noble Friend would find that every precaution bad been taken to prevent any violation of the law. The Earl of MALMESBURY still thought that, as the quantity of foreign corn allowed to be imported into Guernsey and Jersey was unlimited, no check was interposed to prevent its re-export to this country. No possible injustice could arise to those islands from con• sidering, in the Bill, Guernsey and Jersey as foreign countries. He was the more anxious on the subject, as the returns chewed that, during the last two years, there had been a very great importation of foreign wheat into the islands of Jersey and Guernsey ; much more, indeed, than was sufficient fir their own consumption. He had no wish to see the Charter of those islands vio lated, but he wished this country to be protected. In answer to a question of Lord REDftSDALI4 Lord GODIs:R.ICH said, if, upon looking into the Bill for regulating the importation of foreign corn, it should be found that there was no clause to meet the case referred to, he should have no objection to accede to the wish of his Noble Friend on the point alluded to, but he was sure that the existing law would be found to Mild the protection he desired. The Earl of MA LMESBULY said, that was quite enough. All he wanted was, the assurance of his Sohle Friend that the point would be attended to. ' • The data► was then agreed to, as *ere several °shwa, without oppositioa.—To a succeeding one, Lord TEYNHAM moved an amendment, to the effect, that, when the quantity of foreign wheat allowed to be imported under the Act, should have been one Million of quarters, and the quantity of foreign Sour so imported should havo amounted to 100,000 cwt. that then the further importation of foreign grain and Hour should be prohibited for six months, unless the price of wheat should exceed 665. per quarter. Lord GODERICH said, it was quite impossible for any Noble Lord who concurred in the principle of the Bill to support the Amendment of the Noble Lord. After a few words from Lord ELLIIIIIIOItOVOR, The Earl of MALM•ESBURY repeated a former argument—that foreign grain might be admitted, by monthly instalments, in quantities sufficient to meet the wants of the country ; that was, when the.average price should be 665. he •cold allow the importation of 300,000 quarters monthly ; •but that when the average should sink below that price, importation should cease to be renewed, however, when the average price should again mount so high. The saute principle •he should Wow recommend. Earl STANHOPE referred to the evidence of wit-i nesses examined before the Committee, to prove that the produce of this count!) , was sufficient for its con- , sumption, and contended, therefore, that nnimporta don was necessary. Lnrci ELLENBOROUGH ;aid, there was one moJe• ' by which all the difficulties kit by the -Noble Lord ' might be obviated ; but'it was not one which the politi. eel economists liked to look at. It was a measure, how-