Star. — London, England, 1820-05-03 00:00:00

IMRLIAMENVRY PROCEEDINGS. MOUSE. OF LORDS, MAY 2. The House met at four o'clock, when it was resolved that no Petition for Private Bilk should be received after the 15th day of the present month, and that no Report from the Judges, or Petitions for Private Bins would be received after the 30th. The Standing Orders, as applicable to Private Bills, were or dered to hv. taken into consideration on Thursday next, and , their Lordships to be summoned on the occasion. Mr. CiAIItSON, from the Insolvent Debtors' Court, brought up an Account of the Balances in the hands of the late Receiver of that Court up to the present time. Lord AUCKLAND gave notice, tbat he would, on Friday next, move for the appointment of a Committee to take into consideration the state of the Law respecting the Insolvent Debtors' Court.--. The House then adjourned to this day. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Several Members took the usual oaths. Among them were A. lisseitn. Mr. Curtwee, Mr. twit/aster, and Lord DrErtinJUST. .lr. W. II Artvvx moved for Copies of all Reports made 1%7 the Commissioners appointed to inquire into the Duties of certain Officers in the Excise and Customs. Mr. 1,1 iSIII NG TO N thought it would be convenient to the House and more satisfactory to the Honourab le Gentle man, to defer his motion for the present, as the accounts were Erit yet completed. Mr. W. HARVEY acceded to this proposition, and then moved for an Account of the number of informations bled in the Court of Exchequer under the Customs and Excise Laws, rum the Ist of May, 1819, to the Ist of May, 18:10.—Ordered. Colonel BAGWELL presented a Petition praying for leave to bring m a Bill for the improvement of Cork Ibrbour.— Laid on the table. Mr. HUME moved for several Accounts respecting the Ex rettees incurred in the Islands of Ceylon, the Mauritius, Cape of Good Hope, dm with the dates of the times when the same were attritted.—Ordered. Mr. BENNETT moved for several Accounts of Pensions in Great /Britain and Ireland.—Ordered. The SPEAKER said he had to inform the House that he had received a List of the Barristers above six years standing in Ireland, who had consented to hear evidence in eases of con tested Elections in that parr of the United Kingdom. If there were any Election Petitions to be laid before the House, now was the time to lay them en the table.—No Petition was prt.sented. emoKE FROM STEAM-ENGINES AND FURNACES. Mr. M. A. TAYLOR said, it roust be in the re collection of the House, that in the Session before last he had moved for a Committee to consider of, smile means of putting a stop to the nuisances arising *tom those great furnaces, the smoke of which con tinitally annoyed the bletropolis ; and, indeed, lie might say the whole kingdom. His object was ft consider of some means by which the smoke might he consumed before it issued from the chimnies.— trom the discoveries he had made, and from schat he had himself witnessed, he was sure that the smoke' which now issued, to the destruction of all kinds of vegetables, might be removed and prevented. At the time when he first brought this subject before the, house, the Committee he moved for had been grant ed; t*ae Report of that Committee was before the House ; and it dearly shelved that the plan for con-, seining smoke was not impracticable. Since that he had sopa several places where smoke was actually consumed; and if the House would take the pains to inquire, they would find it no difficult matter to put a stop to those nuisances which now made Lon don, Liverpool, Birmingham, and Manchester un inhabitable—tLeud laughter).—Gentlemen might make this a subject of mirth—they might think his statement impossible—but he - meant to say, that Etc..: rally those places were uninhabitable, for many. people residing near great furnaces were obliged to rend their families away from their habitations to places hired for their reception, in order that they might be free from those unhealthy nuisances. This was done by numbers of people in Manchester. he could prove to the - Gentlemen present that all the pernicious ebullitions of smoke coming from steam engines might be prevented,. and this great evil re medied, then, indeed, they might have real cause for' smiles upon their countenances. The plan he should propose had been successfully carried into effect at Warwick, in the manufactory of a Mr. Barnes; and he could assert that it had been done with scarcely, any additional expense, and with one-third less corm wmption of fuel, than was now generally used in loriraces. If Gentlemen who heard him would take the - trouble of going to the manufactory of Mr. Dames they would find this to be the fact ; they NvOltiti scarcely be able to find where the furnace was ; and they would perceive-no more smoke there than in any common chimney. He bad himself gone to Warwick, to be satisfied Of the fact which he Row stated ; and, as a proof that no nuisance existed in the manufactory he spoke of, there was a 1 bleaching ground within ten yards of the furnace there was also a garden, and a conservatory : and none of these sustained the slightest injury or annoy ance4rom smoke. A similar plan had been adopted, with equal success, at a distillery a little distance be.; )oial the Penitentiary on Millbank. If Gentlemen would go there, they would see a blatk intense smoke coming out of one furnace and passing into another, where it was entirely consumed before it ot iu:o the open air. He was sure there was no man who must:not be glad if this great evil could. be got•iid of by a compulsory law. He would ask I.is 14iglitilionourable . fiienti, the Member for Liver- I 001, what 'he thought of the state of the atmos pima in that great town, in consequence of the no- - inerouslornaces erected there? Ile would put the same question to Gentlemen who had been at Bir mingham and Manchester. But in order to be fully mltestiesi of the effect of o.ese furnaces, they treed only go over to the other side of the water, where there %vele several of them sending forth their masses of smoke every day. In Bridge -street, Illackfriars, there was a furnace which unnoyed•the whole neigh liourhood. He had witnessed ebullitions of smoke bear• St. James's Palace ; and those-who resided near or.frequented Hyde Park, must have been frequently rinnoyed 4 y that which issued 'from the Cannon Drewery. Time were several Gentlemen then in the House who could bear testimony to the truth of all las statements ; and corroborate all of them. If he should•be able to satisfy the blouse that the - nuisance I.e alluded to could be abated by the application ceitainlemedies, he hoped he might be permitted to living in a declaratory law by which such nuisaircel 3 sight Le abated by the verdict of a Jury. If he' rceaoded in e ff ecting an object so conducive to thW I,4,aith and comfort of the 'Public, he •should con; rider himself as having deserved-well of his country. lie amcluded with 'moving, "That a Select Corn riatee be appointed to consider how it would be y.racticabic tompel•persons 'using - stearwengines ;tad fur, nacer, to erect the same in a masmwrless :dicial to the health and comfort of the Public." Mr. DENMAN seconded the million. himself witnessed all the inconventene es and nui sances stated by his Honourable Friend, and he was sure they could be removed. -.- • Sir CHARLES MORDAUNT had also seen the manufactory of Mr. Barnes of Warwick, and had admired the ingenious, and at the same time,alfee tual method in which the desirable object was ac complished. It would be generally adopted, as soon as it was generally known. Mr. SMITH, front his own personal observation, confirmed all that had been said in favour of the in vention. He was persuaded that it sed be most advantageous to the country at hrge../.1 The motion was then agreed to, and the Com mittee was appointed. ITAGIt4OACIFES. Mr. M.A. TAYLOR iglin rose to call the attention of die House for a few minureito another notice which he had beide, it. Ile hoped it would not excite so smirch mirth as the preeco-' ding; for, in truth, it was a very serious one. lie alluded to a constant uniform practice on the part of stage-coach drivers, of a most dangerous and mischievous tendency, viz. racing and furious driving. As the law at present stood, excepting where death ensued from such causes, there was scarcely any punish ment. It was a great question whether, according to the pre sent state of the law, such an offence Was punishable as a mis demeanour? There existed an Act of Parliament, by which some penalty was inflicted. lint in eases of overturning, which was generally attended with the most dreadful cnosequesces, such as the fracture of limbs, ice. there was no other punishment than a fine of .0:10, which might be mitigated down to XS, at the discretion of a Magistrate. In his opinion nothing that could 'be done would be effectual, unless it were made to affect the driver. It was not his object to take from the passenger who had a broken leg, his action against the proprietor for damages; but to make the driver amenable to the punishment of the law. The Hon. Gentleman concluded bymoving fur leave to bring in a Bill for punishing, as criminals, all driven of stage-coaches for accidents occasioned by their driving in a wilful and careless manner.—Leave was granted. INSOLVENT DSITOIIS. Lord A LTHORPR rose, pursuant to notice, to ask leave to bring in a bill for the Relict of Insolvent Debtors. The great objection to the law on this subject, as it at present stood, was the facility it afforded to debtors of concealing their property. The object of the Bill he was desirous of bringing in was, by enabling the Commissioners to examine out of Court, to render it more satisfactory to the creditors. This was the pried* alteration he proposed to make in the law on this subject. Air. LOCKHART was glad to find that the Bill about to be introduced by the Noble Lord Was upon a more extended scale than the former one. Ile thought the laws MI this subject required very considerable alteration. One of their great faults was, that they treated with the same degree of lenity those who, by fraudulent practicesfell under their operation, and their wi hi were in that situation from misfortune. Ile had many remarks to make on the subject, which be should defer till the BillY* brought in. Lord ALTHORPE said, he had not „hrougitt forward the question so fully as be should otherwise have felt himself called on to do, as he thought it unnecessary in a great measure hi the present stage of the business. lie was glad that the Ilan. Gen tleman promised to apply his attention to it. Leave was then given to bring in the MIL REVENUE. Mr. MARERLEY moved for Official Accounts of the Re venue, from the 7th October, 1819, up to the sth April, 1890, distinguishing between England and Ireland; for an Account of the Amount payable by way of Interest out of the Consoli dated Fund, for the same period ; the Amount of the Income and rharges thereupon, of the 'United lll4dom, between the . :years 1117 and 11120, distinguishing the Quarters ; Slso for a 211tatement of the Produce of the New Duties since the lastyro ductlon ; and an Account of the Number cif Tachequer Rine re-' ceised in payment of Duties.—Motion agreed to. BIMINI LINEN. Mr. MABERLEY further moved, that there be laid bcfora s j i the Howe an Account of the Amount of Boantlespaid on Wahl and British Linens, from the la,“ production of Amounts up to the present period ; stating the number of yards, with their se- 1 spective bounties of a halfpenny, a penny, and three-halfpence. A like Account of all tho Lima Tam imported for the last ten years to the at Jimmy, •latoormarsting Great ads& from Ireland. Also an Account of the Quantity of Limon Cloth ha raVnd .Erported during the last ,tat rears, ending the lat ary, 2120, distinguishing sash peer. Also an Account af the •*Geist and actual value of them Articles during thole Ma years.—Motion agreed to. IRISH STOCK. - --- Mr. CHARLES GRANT moved for Imre to bring La a Bill merely to enable she holders of Stock is Imiond to onager, without making the Caoal Cowpony or the sank of Ireland a party in it. lie also moved, at the same time, for leave to bring in a Bill for the Administretion of Alerts in Ireland, in cases where the at dmininrstor or Rzientor, to whom Probates' had been granted, happened to be out of the kingdom. Leave was granted to bring in both the 11111 a. CATO-STREET CONSPIRACY. Mr. Alderman WOOD rose. I4e said, the oues-: lion which lie now thoutti i t ee bis duty to bring snider the consideration of the was one of she greatest importance, and particularly to the House itself. He' might be wrong in the course - which liebad proposed' to himself - to pursue ; but if he were, the Speaker would no doubt instruct him what was the proper mode of bringing the matter forwara. Be repeated, that he considered it as one in which the House *as most deeply concerned—(l*er, laear!)—Be had come to the determiaation or treating it as tebneach, eff privilege ; and would bete very briefly state what were the facts. Seven ,persons recently applied to: him, in ;his of capacity of Magistrate, for a war-, rasa to take up a man stated to be then resident in ifleet-street, whose itanse was said tote George Ed wards. He immediately went into a private exa mination of those individuals, with the assistance of, a most able and worthy brother Magistrate, Sir W. Domville. Four of the parties deposed to some very, material facts, some of whiih, affecting the safety nil that House, be should now mention; but others, which were detailed at great length, were of too horrible a description for hire to repeat. They in volved a plot, not merely to effect the destruction of that House, and the Honourable Members within it, but of one of the highest personages in this kingdom, and of his Majesty's blinisters alho—(fiter, hear ! ) .He would, however, confine himself to the facts of Ate case as they regarded that 'House. 'He would .read the words of the deposition. They were to this effect :-4. Some time in that year (1819, we pre sume),•deponent saw a man of - the name of Edwards . going from cue public-house to another,. inviting per-, sons to unite with him in the execution of the plots, against the Government which he intended to bring . forward." It then went onto state, that one of his great plots .was this :—He said, 4 , that he could bring into the House of Commons six or eight mea l very readily, and that it . was not necessary that they should come in dean." By that expression he meant, that they might easily enter the House with something under their arms ; - for they could so come into the -lobby and other parts of the House with . boa's ;no objection would be offered - to their pass ing on . with books under their arms. These beoki. were to'have been filled with gun-barrels, cut down to the length of four inches ally,• which were to be filled with gunpowder, and . plugged up at both ends ; and these - implements being - thrown down in the middle of the house, upon some occasion of a full attendance, when it would be in a very crowded state, would explode with great violence, Mitt cause' much destruction." Tho deposition wept on to iihow,, that lwards on one occasion said, " Thistlewood is ti y for us; he's the one to do our work : he will very soon be out of Horsham jail.* Now the trvi-. deuce next shewed, that two days after, Tbistlewoot did come out of Horsham jail, and be was intro .. ] duced to this Edwards at the house of Preston the cobbler. And that which was the strongest con firmation of the whole statements, and in his (Mr. Alderman Wood's) mind proved it beyond all doubt, was, that Edwards did getthese very books made for the purpose ; that he procured the gun-barrels, and had them cut up. At that time, too, he was sup plied with money all of a sudden, although, just be lore, be bad not enough to buy a pot of beer ! All at once, however, lie got supplied with cash, and was enabled to purchase several other weapons of defence, and arms, which the deponents spoke of.— Now this was the general substance of the deposi tions as they regarded that House; as to the other parts, which related to the intended taking off of cer tain individuals, he bad hardly satis fi ed himself what might be the best mode of proceeding; or whether, from the nature of the case, he might be justified in asking the House to indulge him with a Commit tee of Secrecy ? in which case it would not be neces sary for him to proceed with the present observation. The other details, however, which he did not at pre sent feel it his duty to hting before the House, were of a most terrible description, and unfolded plots of the most dreadful character. The persons who had made the depositions were respectable persons, and not at all implicated in the late legal proceedings, as having been evidence either for the Crown or for the prisoners. He (Mr. Alderman Wood) had had seve- 1 ral other persons with him that same morning, who .were all ready to swear that they knew Edwards to have been engaged in these plots, from time to time. He had been asked by several individuals, how he intended to proceed in this case? and he could now declare,_ that his mind was mach up to call that per son (Edwards) before the Bar of the House. Whe ther, however, he should ask fora Committee of Se crecy, or proceed in any other way, he was ready to bring this important business before them, and he thought that he discharged his duty in so doing. He had not thought it proper to swear those deponents to the troth of their allegations, because all the acts charged against Edwards were stated to have occur red either in the County of Middlesex or the City of Westminster. As he never interfered in such a case, he told the parties that they must go before a Ma gistrate either of Westminster or of the County ; or else that they must apply for a warrant to Lord Sid mouth. He directed them to go to his Lordship ; and promised that, upon procuring the warrant, he would get it immediately backed, so as to make it operative within the City of London. He thought the thing a matter of such importance that be took the deposi tions in charge himself, and ordered the witnesses to, attend him at Lord Sidrnouth's immediately. When he arrived at the Office, it so happened that his Lord ship was not there, having left the place only a few minutes before. fie left the depositions with a per son whom he had now in his eye, and bad received an answer; but he did not think proper now to give it.—The existence of such a man as this Edwards it was almost impossible to conceive : it was difficult to imagine a man, going about with all this boldness, from public-house to public-house, nay, even from one private-house to another, fra ming and discours ing of all these plots. For his own part, however, when he looked at all the facts, he thought it clear, that Edwards had become connected with all those men (the conspirators) at a very early period of their meeting together • and he pledged himself, that if the House shoul d proper to adopt any question upon the subject, be would bring forward such evi dence as must convict the man—( Hear, hsar). It was only to be apprehended that he was not, perhaps, in the country, which he might have quitted by this time; otherwise no doubt there were Hon. Gentlemen who were in possession of him, so that he might be produced. He therefore felt it his duty, under all the circumstances, before be sat down, to move—" That George Edwards be immediately brought to the Bar of this blouse." Mr. BATHURST.—The only question for the consideration of the. House was, whether the state ment of the Honourable Alderman was such as to establish a sufficient ground upon which to call for their interference in -this business, as in a matter of privilege? Be begged to be understood, in saying this, as yeaking only to a point of form, viz. the; calling of this individual to the Bar of the House.— He entreated the House to consider the impropriety, and inconvenience of so calling before them a person, who was, according to the flortuura.ble Alderman s own statement, charged with being an accomplice in plots—who was accused of intending, with othets,l the ,murder all the Members of that House. Why, surely, upon this shewing, he could not well be less' criminal than -those unfortunate men who had scr lately forfeited their lives for High Treason. Yet this was the' individual who was to be brought to the Bar of the House upon a question of privilege. Whe ther the acts charged were, or were not, overt acts of treason, it was not material to consider; what the House were called on now to determine was, whether this was a matter of privilege? If the business were brought before the blouse in a.proper shape, and after proper notice, no doubt they would entertain it in a proper manner. lint could anything be more 111-advised than to call before them an individual who bad intended the perpetration of such dread ful .criauss•? Mr. Alderman WOOD said, he certainly set out with intimating, that he saw great difficulties in this question ; and from his inexperience in that House o t, it was very naturally to be expected that he shouldl feel that uncertainty, in a case of this kind, which+ those of greater Parliamentary knowledge would not' experience. He was, indeed, quite happy .to hear the Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Bathurst) ob serve, that if the business were brought before the House properly, the House would properly entertain -it. He thought it right to state, that he had applied to another quarter, to get the individual in question prosecuted, km in that application be had been dis appointed—(Hear, hear, hear). Be had already ob served, .that he did not think proper to state what 'that answer was. He now spoke of it generally; and . )so far, the inquiry, after this answer, had not pro ceeded so rapidly as it might have done. When he first read over the depositions, which were of a nit- ture, he was sure, to make every man shudder with' honor, be thought that not a moment was to beleat in taking Edwards up, if he was to be found; and he (Alderman Wood) took it for granted that he - could be found, for he was known to have been in the pitissession of certain persons for a long time. ills plots were truly diabolical, and from the evidence 4 could be proved, beyond contradiction or dispute, " that Edwards was the sole plotter and founder of the is hole Cato-street plot!" At present, he knew a no other way than the motion he had suggested, by which proceedings might be taken in order to bring the man to justice. He should now leave the mat ter in the hands of the House. Mr. HUME seconded the motion. There were particular facts, which could not be mentioned with out imperiously calling upon that House to do an act of justice. It appeared, by the depositions no , of one person only, but of a great many persons. that the individual in question had gone about from house to house with his hand-grenades, and, up to twenty-four hours only preceding the '23d February, had been unceasingly urging persons to join with him in an atrocious plot to assassinate his Majesty's Ministers. All of a sudden he became quite rich, and was buying arms in every quarter, at every price, and of every description, still urging a variety of persons to unite with him. Now it was veiy .fitting for the interests of the country, that the country should know who the individuals were that had sup plied him with the money, and then to endeavour to ascertain—a fact of which he (Mr. Hume) bad strong suspicion—whether this plot had not been known to many long before it was put down? Th e object of the Honourable Alderman's motion, there. foie, was to ascertain two or three points which could not come out in a Court of Justice; and he.did. hope that his Majesty's Ministers, who had possession of this man, would give a pledge that they would not let him withdraw himself from the country. Ile hoped the Honourable Alderman would persevere in his motion. Mr. BROUGHAM—" I certainly, Sir, wish the worthy Alderman would rather, in this instance, ac cede to what seems to be the wish of this /louse, and withdraw his motion, rather than abide by the recommendation of the worthy Seconder ; but I can by no means refrain from expressing my surprise at the levity with which some Gentlemen opposite seemed disposed to view so grave and important a question as the present subject involves. I agree with them, that this is not such a case as by a dis creet and fit use of our privileges calls for their ap plication to the particular circumstance. If I am, however, asked, whether these facts, if proved, amount to a breach of our privileges or not ? 1 do not hesitate to say that they not only involve a gross violation of our privileges—on that point I am as clear as that I exist—but also what is a thousand times worse, a plot to overthrow us while delibe rating, which is (I mean the ploga high misdemean our, according to the old Act of Edward the Third, which I am not aware has been increased or altered by the late Acts. The execution of such a plot is, I know, HigliNTreason. As to what has been said about a person's implicating himself by his answers at our bar, that is what is always done in cases of libel. Ido not, as 1 before stated, think .0 a case which it would be fit and proper to consider as a breach of privilege. But is what has been stated of this man nothing? is it no offence at all?--(,Hear, hear). Has he not been charged with a plot to at tack this House in a horrible manner, while gravely engaged in the important business of the country? Is this no crime, or where are we when such a sub ject is to be treated with levity and ridicule?— (Hear, hear). When a plot is .cliscovered 43 murder the Cabinet Ministers, it is .ealled High Treason, and men lose their lifts for it; and is it nothing to con spire to blow up this House?—(Hear, hear, hear). this the way to deal with such transactions, to say we don't wish to pursue the subject? If this be so, it is indeed to me matter of mach astonish ment. I join, as I have already said, in the wish that this motion be withdrawn, but not in the ex, pectation that nothing more shall be done in it; on the contrary, I wish we should hold to the clue we have now got from my worthy Friend, -and pursue the matter to the bottom--i(Hear, her). — Lad why ? because in the proper quarter I see no attempt likely to be made 40 bring the offender (if such he shall prove ultimately to be) to justice. have seen my Honourable Friend's correspondence with Lord Sidmouth, and the Noble Lord's .answer, in which be avows, that it it not the intention qf the Mune Deporment to bring Edwards to trial. Wbea I say this, I also wish to state, that j do not mean to be considered as saying, Edwards ought not to have been employed as a spy—l do not say his informa tion ought not to have !teen acted upon; on taw cep teary, 1 think, so far as I can see into the business, it was properly, and wisely, an usefully acted upon. also differ entirely with my Honourab i le ksiend i who thinks Edwards was the Saleiustigator of the lase plot; for I think there were others as deeply im beicated in it. I am perfectly ready to believe that was employed as a spy, and, like other spies, .did leiettaatisfy himself in giving information of what he paw others doing, but went to work himself, to widen the circle; that he was actively employed in inciting as well as espying, and went further than the line of his instructions; all this I can easily imagine. I do not, however, blame Government for employing spies, for acting upon their information, for not producing them in Courts of Justice on particular trials, or fqr not prosecuting them for High Treason afterwards. As long as society can furnish such desperate.cha racters as, Thistlewood and logs, Groverinnent is not only justified, but bound to employ such persons as Edwards to watch their motions, and thwart .their diabolical plans. It .is lamentable to bexonapelled to employ such persons; but so long as the wretches, they are acting with are found in society, so long is Government justified in employing these means qf de tection. . The office of a spy is always odious, and so is that of a hangman; but as long as the office of the latter must stand, so must that of the former. But when I allude to this always lamentable and painful necessity, I am ready to say, that he who does em ploy spies should have a lull sense of the delicate, difficult, and grave responsibility, he-has taken upon his hands, and should consider that in the use he makes of them he is deeply responsible.to the justice of his country; that he should take care he only em ploys spies, net instigators. 'The existence of such men as Thistlewood and Ings justifies the envie,- ..eN I • • I • •