Star. — London, England, 1820-06-02 00:00:00

Judges held their situations independent of the will of the Crown. This establishment of tLe indepen: dence of Judges, was one of the most memorable actions that marked the equitable reign of his late Majesty, who nobly put, even beyond his own reach, that power which had been so often used as an engine in the hands of despotic Governments—(Hear). — England thus enjoyed the great blessing of having an independent Bench. but was there anything like this in Wale- ? No—the Judges there were compa ratively obscure, and their situations depended alto gether upon the pleasure of Ministers. The whole system of justice there was imperfect and bad.— Theie were eight Judges there, all of them ill paid ; they were all dependents on Ministers ; area it was impossible for the country not to look on their pro ceedings with disgust—(Hear, hear)..—W ould it be said that eieht Judges were necessary for such a country as Wales, when there were no more than twelve for the whole of England? It thei e were only four Judges there, the justice of the Principality would be better administered. It was quite impos sible that many Judges could be necessary; and, therefore, it was the duty of the blouse to examine into the whole of those abuses, with a view of cor recting them. If his motion for a Committee of Inquiry were now refused, he would then move a Resolution, to exclude the Welch Judges from seats in that House—( Hear, henr).—He saw no reason to expect any permanent relief in the administration of justice in Wales, unless the Court of Great Session were abolished. It was, however, impossible to ex pect that the 'English Judges could attend the busi ness of that country, unless they -were increased in number. He could not see any objection to such a measure as this ; or any reason why the number of our Judges should always. be confined to twelve.— Here the Hon. Member quoted several periods of our hi sue y, in which the Kings of England had more than twelve Judges. He was sure the House would hear with pleasure, that the main object of his motion was to have the Judicature of Wales totally abolished, and to assimilate the mode of administering justice in Wales to that of England. He then moved, " That a Select Committee be appointed to consider of the state of Courts of Judicature in Wales, to determine, upon the propriety of abolishing the same, and to consult-upon the means of including Wales within the Circuits of English Judges'—(]l eas, hear). Mr. WA RREN (Chief Justice of Chester), began by taking notice of some observations made by the Hon. Member who had just sat down, which he con sidered as reflecting so severely upon the personal character of the Learned Gentlemen who now filled the offices of Judges in Wales, as to require some attempt at vindication. Mr. F. CA NIPtiELL interposed, observing that he had no intention of alluding to the personal charac ter of any of those Gentlemen. He addressed his animadversions wholly to the system. Mr. WARREN begged to remind the Honourable Gentleman of his statement. in which-he imputed to the Judges of the Welch Circuit, not only to the Gentlemen who at present filled those offices—not only to those who had filled them in times past, but to all who should become Jud'pes in future, igno rance and obscurity. Did the Honourable Gentle man ever hear of Sir William Grant ?—lt was to be presumed not. Did he hear of Sir James Mansfield— of Lord Kenyon—of Sir Vicary Gibbs—or of the present Chief Justice of the Common Pleas ?—lt was to be presumed not. The Honourable Gentleman, if he had ever heard of these great characters, would have forborne to charge the Welch Judges, of " past times at least," with ignorance. Now he (Mr. War ren) had bad the confidence and friendship of several Gentlemen opposite ; he should recal the word friendship, for he was afraid that it was often sacri ficed when party interfered. At all events, he hoped not, looking to both sides of the House, he believed he had been employed by a moiety on either side, at one time or another. He begged to know from the Honourable Member who spoke last, it he (Mr. Warren) was included in the number of those Judges who were described as ignorant and obscure? He hoped not. He had not been in the House some time back. when a Noble Lord opposite (Lord John Russell) did allude to bins in a manner that would have called upon him for some attempt at vindica tion. He had been unfortunately absent from the House at the time, and only knew that he was al luded to by seeing the speech of the Noble Lord in the public prints. However, he assured the Noble Lord opposite, and the Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Campbell) that he 'had too much respect for their characters and talents to feel the least degree of anger at their allusions. He gave them the credit of ex pressing what their conviction was, and he trusted' that they would give him also the credit of speaking, with sincerity, his opinions. He hoped that when the Noble Lord again thought proper to reflect upon him (Mr. Warren) in any capacity, he would do so in a manner that would afford him (Mr. Warren) a fair opportunity of replying to his charges. He would now come to the question before the House. He had no hesitation, ignorant and obscure as he was, in declaring his approbation of the motion; to the extent of an inquiry, not with the view enter tained by the Honourable Mover to the abolition of she system of Judicature in Wales, but for tire pur pose of remedying its acknowledged defects. Per haps it was not known to many in that House, that in the year 1817, a Committee was formed for the purpose of inquiring into the state of Courts of Judi cature in Wales. fire late Mr. Ponsonby was the' mover of this Committee. They spent a considerable time in the investigation—they laboured diligently and anxiously, cramming a variety of witnesses, who from their station and experience, were enabled to give them useful information. In the Report which they presented to the House, they pointed out nearly the same defects in the system of Judicature, which the HonourableGentleman had enumerated to the House. The measure of remedy which they proposed to carry into effect, however, was very different from that which appeared to be entertained by the Honourable Gentleman. They did not hold the opinion, that Courts shculd be abolished ; but they came to the resolution, that a Rill should be brought in, founded upon the Report, for the purpose of curing the im perfections therein pointed out. - Here then were the objects ready provided which the Honourable Gen tleman wished to procure by his motion. So far from wishing to abolish the Courts, the Committee expressly stated that the system had various recom mendations, arid that notwithstanding its defects, it was deserving of being continued, on account of the cheapness and expedition with which justice was ad.; ministered in conformity with it. The Hill was brought in, and after having gone through few stages, was dropped in consequence of the dit:olu tion of Parliament He (Mr. IVarren) would recom mend to the Honourable Gentleman to accept the suggestions contained in the Itero9, of the former Committee, anii to ruvive the 13111 -Which had been introduced under their sanction. He begged - to state, that a Petition had been presented to :he House re cently, numerously and respectably signed, and corning from the very place with which the Honour able Mover himself was more immediately connected, in which the Petitioners expressed their anxiety for an alteration of the system of Judicature, but at the same time discountenancing any proposal for the abolition of the system altogether. Recurring to the charges which had been made against the Welch Judges, he expressed his hope again that the Hpn. Gentleman did not intend to include him (Mr. War ren) in the obnoxious censures which had faller from him. With respect to the office w }rich he (Mr. War ren) held, he assured the House, that if emolument had been his object, the exchange which he had ,Lade proved but a bad speculation, because with a moiety of the emolument: which le derived ft om his professicnal atteudance on Committees up stairs for a short time, he could absolutely purchase the fee simple of the office. It the Honourable Member, however, succeeded in his object of obtaining a Com mittee, he (Mr. Warren) assured the House that he would be most ready to furnish all the information in his power. Sir :JAMES MACKINTOSH and Mr. CREEVEY rose together ; but theformer Honour able Member yielded precedence to Mr. CREEVEY, who then addressed the House. He confessed he was never able to comprehend upon what grounds English Judges were disqualified, by their station, from taking seats in the House of Com mons, while a similar exchisicn was not extended to Welch Judges—(Hear, hear). If he wanted a proof, however, of the Constitutional impropriety of the privilege granted to the latter class, that proof was ,to be found in the person of the Honourable and Leal tied Judge who had just sat down. It was not tote denied now, that the office of a Judgeship in %Vales, with a seat in the House of Commons, and certain opinions, were always to be found united.— He (Mr. Creevey) remembered the time of his politi cal acquaintance with the Learned Judge—he by no means wished to imply that the Honourable Gentle man and himself entertained the same political opi nions, because the Honourable and Learned Judge always ent farther than he (Mr. Creevey)—(Laugh ter, and Hear!). In fact, there was a time when the Honourable and Learned Gentleman could find no more sui:able object for his panegyric—no more . congenial oracle of his political opinions, than the Honourable Baronet, the Representative for West minster—(Much laughter, and Hear!). However, he (Mr. Creevey) now saw the Honourable Gentle man (Mr. Warren) supporting a certain line of opi nions in that House, and he saw him a Welch Judge; he, consequently, thought that there was no great violation in reasoning, by concluding that there was an intimate connection between the office and the opinitins—(Hear, hear). Lord JOHN RUSSELL hoped the House would permit him to say a few words, in reference to the allusion which had been made to him personally by the Honourable and Learned Judge. He observed, some time since, in a Newspaper which usually sup ported the Ministers, that a long tirade against the (Alice and character of the Honourable and Learned Gentleman had been attributed to him (Lord John Rus,ell), purporting to be a part of a speech made in the House of Commons. In this statement he (Lord John Russell) was represented to have accused the Learned Gentleman of a willingness to support the unconstitutional measures of the Minister. How such a notion could have entered the head of the Reporter was to him unaccountable. What he did say, was this—that there was an individual in that House holding an office, which, instead of being removed from the sphere of political contention, as it ought to be, was usually reckoned as the passage to other honours in the gift of Ministers, and hence the office was rendered subservient to the support of the mea sures of Ministers. In saying that this office was only a step to that of Attorney-General, and of Solicitor- General, he believed he was borne out by facts— (Hear, hear).—When the Judges were dependent on the Crown, it was declared that in consequence of the state of dependence they were comparatively in efficient. He begged to know what advantage was obtained from rendering the Judges independent, if it was now to be contended that an individual might perform very impartially the duties of a Judgeship, the appointment to whi c h wa s in t he hand s o f Minis ters ? The Learned Gentleman would see that, in these observations, no particular person was alluded to. The Honourable Judge had talked much of his disinterestedness, and stated, that as to emolument, his returns from professional employments up stairs before Committees, far exceeded what he derived from his judicial situation. The House, therefore, were left to conclude, that the office had been ac cepted solely with a view of making an accession to his character. The-Honourable and Learned Gen tleman embraced the promotion for the purpose of passing away the remainder of his life in a more dig nified capacity than that in which he spent the pre vious part, while in political associations with his Honourable Friend (Mr. Creevey)—(Laughter, and Hear, hear).—But if the Honourable and ,Learned Gentleman felt himself more honourably situated now—if he thought that his head was higher at this moment than in the former period of his life, he (Lord John Russell) would freely wish . him joy of his sit uation—( Hear, hear). Mr. WYNN objected to the personal mode in which the discussion was carried on. After stating many defects in the Welch system of Judicature, amongst which was the fact of there being no appeal from the decisions of the Welch Courts, he supported the motion. Colonel' WOOD said, he was a member of the Committee in 1817, and he remembered that Mr. Ponsunby, who, as their Chairman, had, acted in a manly, dispassionate manner, entered upon the in vestigation with a strong prejudice against the exist-1 ence of the Welch Courts. The result., however, of the examinations was, that the Right Hon. Gentle man 'tad altered his opinion,-unds%as -taistlatstuod to say that the system had many recommendations to the sanction of the Legitlature. The Report of the Committee ex pressed the same opinion, and any one who took the trouble to teed the examinatisnis before the Committee, would find that they would have departed - flow. the *hole btarisg of the-evi "(fence if they had drawn any other conclusions than those to be found in their Report. The only witness who differed with the rest of the evidence, and who expressed himself anxious for the abolition of the system, was .Ir. Owen, who, upon being a-ked as to the good effect of dividing the Principality into two parts, with a view to the more convenient ad ministration of justice? stated that he doubted the good effects. fhe Honourable Member then pro. ceeded to notice the allusions that had been rresde to the Equity judicature. The Cow t was ambulatory, and it was necessary for the Banister to follow the Circuit for a space of three weeks. If he did not bring his case to a conclusion in that time, he was precluded from bringing it foi ward again for six months. This delay was complained of as a great hardship. But in our Couit of Chancery a suitor would consider himself as very fortunate indeed if he could bring his case to a conclusion within six years !—( Hear, Hear).—Ho (Colonel Wood) believed that a County Meeting had been convened at the in- I stance of the Honourable Gentleman who moved the question, at which, if he rnistsok not, a resolution was agreed to, that it would be advantageous to re medy the defects of the system of Judicature, and thus implying an understanding, that the system was not to be abolished. He believed that if the inhabi tants of every county in the Principality were con sulted, they would be found to entertain the same feelings. But amongst the difficulties which presented themselves to the introduction of English Judges into Wales, he begged to state one which he consi dered of great importance, namely, the difference of language. In a great part of Wales no English was spoken at all. Even at this moment it was very rare to procure a Welch witness, in certain places, that could speak the English. When a Welch wit ness was brought into the box, you might ply him for ever with questions in English, before you could get any other answer out of him than di* sassenagh (Laughter).—There was another important difficulty just occurred to his mind. The Judges and Lawyers at present, all went the Circuit on horseback. He be lieved that the establishment of English Judges of Assize, could not get through half the country in the necessary time !—(A laugh).—He remembered that an English Judge (Judge Harwood) io travel ling Circuit in Wales on horseback, fell off his horse and broke a leg—(Laughter).—lf Gentlemen would abstain from indulging in party feeling in questions of this nature, and if they would consent to leave the poor Welchmen to themselves for a time, they might be soon ripe for those projected improvements. But at present the Welch were not in a sufficiently advanced state to become the object of these projects of assimilation with England. He knew that the prevalence of the Welch language was a great draw back upon their tendency to improve. Perhaps this was not a gracious acknowledgment, coming from him, but it was not less true. He was certain that any proposal . for the alteration of the system would meet with great dissatisfaction from the country. He had no objection to join in any attempt to remedy the admitted defects of the system. He should sup port a revival of the Bill formerly introduced into the House upon this subject; but he would oppose the present Motion. • Mr. WROrfESLEY (a Member of the Commit tee) stated, that it was the general impression that the Welch system of Judicature required some re medy. He corroborated the statement of his Hon. Friend (Colonel Wood) that Mr. Ponsonby was un favourable to the abolition of the system. Mr. CHETWYND raid, that the Honourable and Learned Judge opposite (Mr. Warren) had furnished him with a stronger proof than he required "for con vincing him that no Judges should be permitted to bold seats in that House. The great evil of the sys tem was in the mode of appointing the Welch Judges. If Ministers gave up the little patronage that the power of appointing to these offices afforded them, he thought they would procure for themselves a good deal of confidence in the country. The House would remember, that up to an early peridd in the reign of George the Second, the Scotch Barons were permitted to hold seats in that House. An Act, how ever, passed in that reign, which disqualified them in future. He confessed he did not see the justice of excluding Scotch Barons from Parliament, if Welch Judges were permitted to bold seats there— (Hear, hear).—Nothing could be more derogatory to the Constitution, than such a permission to Welch Judges. The Honourable Member reprehended, as another great evil, the liberty given to Welch Judges to act as Advocates. In cases even .of .common ac tions, to be tried on the Welch Circuit, it. was possi ble, by a little dexterity, to obtain beforehand the opinion of the Judge who was to try it. He concurred in the Motion. Mr. ALLEN denied the truth of the representa tion, that the inhabitants of Wales were unfavour able to the abolition of the present system of Judi cature, and to the substitution of a mode of admi nistering justice assimilated to that of England. The Carmarthen Petition had originated in the spirit of party. The only merit ascribed to the Welch Judi cature was superior cheapness and dispatch ; but it was a very unfair way to estimate the excellence of Jurisprudence by the cheapness with which it. was to be obtained. He therefore claimed for his coun trymen a participation in the jurisprudence of Eng land. They could never have a fair administration of justice with inferior Judges, Barristers, and At— toruies. The best way would be to take the Southern Counties of the Oxford Circuit, and connect them, ' with South Wales, and the Northern Counties of it ,with North Wales. In this way they would be able to secure a more respectable Bar than at present.', The cheapness and the number of Attornies were the great causes of litigation in Wales. He therefore supported the Motion. He believed that Ministers were perfectly ready to give up the patronage of the Welch Judges, if it should be found necessary for the due administration of justice. Lord CASTLEREAGH 'said, the Hon. Gentle man had done his Majesty's Ministers no more than justice. He had entered the House with an opinion that the Report of 1817 was perfectly satisfactory ; ' I but he had since learned that, owins to the death of , the Right Hon. Chairman of that Committee (Mr. Ponsonby) that Report was not so deliberately consi dered as might haft been wished. It might be de. sii able to revive that Committee ; btu the lion. Mena ibees motion went too far, as it alii.ost called on the House to pronounce at once the extinction of the Welsh Judicature; a measure directly hostile to the Report of the former Committee, and the whole body of the evidence on which it was founded. He felt a desire to inquire into this suhject still farther; but without prejudice to the existing Judicature of that country. He u as, therefore, convinced that the Hon. Moves would not wish to adhere to the express words of his motion. The Committee, if revived, might go into a more extensive inquiry than the last; and he could wish that the Report of that Committee should be referred to the new one. He alai moved an Amendment--" That a Committee be appointed simply to inquire into the present state of Judicature in Wales." He protested against that mode of arz gument, that men were less trustworthy because they: had offices confeired on them, in which they wou.d be enabled to distinguish themselves in their profes sional character. He defended Mr. Warren from the imprudence and inaccuracy of the statements tna:le against him, for having changed from one side to the other of tilt House. For himself, he should al wa..-s libid that man in the greatest respect who prudently looked at passing events, and drew his inferences from them accordingly—(Load laughter, and Hear, hear!)—lie did not understand the meaning of those cheers on the part of the Hon. Gentlemen opposite, but this he knew, that when his Hon. and Learned Friend held different opinions from those which he now entertained, they did not lessen him in the esti mation of those OR the other side. --- Mr. BARHAM, who was fcr some time inaudible in the gallery, from the noise that prevailed, sta ted the opinion of the late Mr. Ponsonby en the subject. The opinion was, that the people of Wales ought to " get into the great boat ;" which meant, that th ey ought to be admitted within the pale of the British Constitution. It had also been declared by the same Gentleman, that the manner of airy ointing the Welch Judges was notoriously corrupt. Whatever Honour able Gentlemen might say, it would be a difficult ar.d invidious task to prove the contrary. Had not an individual been appointed a Welch Judge from being Clerk in the King's kitchen, after he had been out of the practice of the law for twenty years ?—(Hear). Had they never heard cf a Judge Lloyd or a Judge Uppon, buth respectable persons in their way, but wholly unfit for Judges? He had heard it aserted, that an Attorney applied to a Welch Judge in his Chambers for his opinion, for which, of course, he . paid him his fees; and when afterwards the Judge gave a contrary opinion on the Bench, the Attorney exclaimed—" How could you take my three guineas for giving one opinion, and the King's money for giving another, on the same case ?—(Hear, hear!)-- The name of that Judge was Lloyd, and the name of the Attorney was Matthews. The Honourable Member concluded, by expressing his decided con viction that the present state of Welch Judicature called urgently for the interference of the Legislature. Mr. W. WYNN condemned the conduct of Judge Hardinge, when on the Bench in Wales. Mr. BATHURST deprecated any premature cen sure on the Welch Judges. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, if the Bench and the Bar of Wales were not now re spectable, they must have been very much ganged within the last twenty years. They certainly were so at the time he practised on the Wdch Circuit—(A laugh).- The Right 'Honourable Gentleman then enumerated the names of several distinguished law. yers who had gone the Welch Circuits in his time; among whom were, Lord Redesdale, Sir W. Grant, and Lord Glenbervie, while Sir William Jones had just then left Wales. Mr. W. PARNELL vindicated the character cf the Learned Judge for Chester. It was true, that that Learned Judge sought power and influence, but nothing was more natural ! lau0). He was, bow• ever, certain that the Gentleman in question sought such power and in fl ue nce on l y t h at h e might be the more enabled to do good. Mr. MARTIN (of Galway) expressed his hope, I that the example of the Learned Judge for Chester would be followed by some of the pure Patriots on the other side, as by getting into power, as he had done, they would have more opportunity of serving the public interest. This was the opinion of the late Mr. Ponsonby, respecting whom an Hon. Member told a story to-night, about gettin g a ll t h e ‘Velch men into a large boat !—(.l lasigh).—Yes, Mr. Pon sonby had said, that ayure Patriot, such for instance as the Learned Judger!' question (A laugh) never had it in his power to do more good than when he was in power! As to the story related about a Welch Judge and an Attorney, the same had been said cf all Judges, from the time a Judge had been first ap pointe4, They had often been obliged to adjudicate differently, in cases where, as Lawyers, they happened to give obiter opinions another way. This was the most possible case in the world, and he would put it to the Solicitor-General opposite—(Here the Hen. Monier looked earliest § at Mr. Denman).—Yes, he would put it to the Solicitor-General—he meant the Solicitor-General who was before him—he would ask that lion. Gentleman, if he Told happen one day to get a seat on t h e B enc h, an peradventure he might, as nothing was hard or impossible to GOD, he would ask him, if he was made a Welch Judge, whether it would be pleasant to his feelings, that any opir,ion contrary to his better judgment, _which I.e might happen to deliver in that House, should rise up in judgment against him? Mr. DENMAN assured the Hon. Gentleman, that he should never deliver any opinion either in that House or elsewhere, which would give him the leapt cause of apprehension as to the consequences: Mr. SCARLETT deprecated the assertion of the Hon. Memberfor Galway, that all Judges were sub ject to the same imputation as the Judge in question. Mr. MARTIN said, he intended only to assert, that they might be subject to them occasionally. Mr. SCARLET!' was satisfied with the explana. tion, and should say no more. Mr. CAMPBELL explained, and having witJ - drawn his motion, the question on the Amencnei..• was put and carried unanimously. PAYMENT OP WAgfilt Mr. LITTLETON rose, pursuant to notice / t. move for leave to bring in a Bill to eaend the i 4 .- relAtite to the pertuoilt of Labours:a' Wnes