Star. — London, England, 1830-03-30 00:00:00

KENT MEETING. -- - Sir E. KNATCHBULL presented a petition from the free holders of the county of sent, complaining of distress, and praying for relief. It was impossible to deny the existence of distress ; and he did not wish to aggravate it by any statement which he could make. The petitioners prayed for a reduction of taxation, and here he would say that the remission of the duty on leather and cider would no doubt confer benefit upon the public. Ultimately he considered that (he repeal of the duty on beer might do good, but Se feared that at present it would lead to a considerable stagnation in the malt trade. Mr. WELLS said that the petition was most respectably signed, and generally had his decided support. To the call, however, for reform in parliament he felt disposed to agree, because he hoped it would not he a dangerous inroad on the constitution. With res. pet to the distress in the country, he could bear unequivocal testi. moray to its general existence . Mr. HON YWOOD said that a reduction of taxation and perils. mentary reform were absolutely necessary for the benefit of the Country. Indeed without them nothing beneficial could be expected. On the question that the petition should be laid on the table, Sir P. BURDETT said that the question of reform having been agitated and agreed to at that meeting of the county of Kent, showed that the principles of n form were making way all over the country. Jr was no longer a subject that excited alarm among as portion of the community. lie agreed cordially with every part of the prayer of the petition ; but he was sorry to hear that the petitioners ex. pressed themselves hostile to the principles of free trade, for it was 'tut those principles, which had never been fully acted on, which caused their distress. (Hear, hear, hear.) They had, in deed, been called into practice so far as to derange the old system without 4ivin g the country all the advantages of that new system of which they were nominally the basis. There was not, and he was afraid thee would not be, for some time, tree trade in the country ; even those who advocated its principles would not, and could not in the state of the house of commons, have energy sufficient to carry those principles to such an extent as to get rid of the corn laws, to the evils of which they were yet subject. As long as that great obstacle to free trade—the corn laws..existed., Its principles could not have a fair trial. He was so satisfied of this, and so satisfied that those laws were Injurious to the country gentle. men. who were in much error on this subject, that he would under take, on the first open day, to bring those laws under the conside :alien of the house, with a view to get them repealed. He trusted that If the attention of the country gentlemen were called to this .übject by 3 person in no degree hostile to them—if he could show dirt their interest and the interests of the whole country would not be injurtd by their repeal—and he considered that the interestof the country gentlemen and the interest of the test of the community went poti passa—and being satisfied in his own mind on the sub ject, and knowing that the country gentlemen were yet open to con. viction, he did anticipate from discussing the subject, that the time would come when they would be sensible that these laws were inju rious to their best interests. He did not despair of seeing the time tome when the country 'should receive the benefit of a free trade i n cam, and get a free trade also for every other part of its industry. He expressed his satisfaction at. the petition, and hoped, that as there were now so many advocates for parliamentary reform, and crew the honourable baronet was not altogether averse from it, that dial Persons wh o w i s h e d f or i t wou ld no longer be supposed to be oyal. To give the people their proper share in the constitution 711142 ne cessary to their sec u rity, b u t i t was n ot less essential to the stability of die throne. pri The petition was then laid on the table, and ordered to be nted. oral peti t i ons were t h en presented praying for a free trade to Inumu , again st t h e burning of Hindoo widows; and the Reports on SPltlY and Canada Affairs brought up, when the resolutions were agreed to. TillE FAZIO. The order of the day having been moved for the house going into Committee of Supply, Mr. I I U 3 IE said he should oppose any vote of money until Ili. tasters assured the house that they would open a passage into the Park from Waterloo.place, as bad been promised by the right hon. grlitkman (Mr. Arbuthnot). Mr. ARBUTHNOT said the hon. member was in error. He gave no pledge as to an opening into the Park. He gave no such i n ,°Tnise he could not g i ve i t , and there was no such opening in the NEI sent to his office. Mr. BEAUAIONT thought an opening would be ornamentaL A Itar years ago a premise was made that the . Regent's Park Should be opened ; he thought the time arrived for carrying the promise into effect. Mr. MABSRLY said the tams= which the land was let should be considered. When it was let plans were given in, describing which parts were to be left open, and which not. The crown had not the power to grant the opening, and if It were allowed, the con sequence would be to destroy the bandy of the place. Mr. PROTHEROE said that Waterloo place should be opened. It would be a great convenience to the public, and no inconvenience to any person. He understood the ridiculous plan of a fountain was given up. An opening could not interfere with the personal gratifi cation of his majesty. He hoped the Regent's.park would be thrown open like the other parks. Mr. HUME said he was now satisfied he bad made a mistake with respect to the pledge, and should not therefore press his objection at present. Mr. BEAUMONT said his hon. friend (Mr. Moberly) was mis taken as to the act of parliament. There was nothing in it which could prevent the opening of the park. It would be most unfair if the public were excluded for the convenience of the few persons who had villas within the inclosure. Mr. IitABERLY said it was the opinion of legal gentlemen that the park could not be opened, and that the Zoological Gardens were granted in contravention of the act. Mr. WARBURTON spoke in favour of a passage into St. James's Park, and of the opening of the Regent's Park. Mr. ARBUTHNOT made a few observations relative to the con. tract with Mr. Nash, and in answer to a question from Mr. Protheroe, said the competition for the ground let to Mr. Nash was quite open, and the transaction perfectly fair. Mr. BEAUMONT said the parks should be as open to the pub lic here, as the Turneries and other public gardens on the continent were. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the accommo. dation of the public had lately received great additions, and the Parks were thrown open to them In parts which were before closed. SUPPLY. The SrEstrza having left the Chair, Mr. A. DAWSON proposed the following resolution :—To de fiay the charges of civil contingencies £lOO,OOO. Mr. HUME gave notice, that upon a future occasion he should propose a reduction in the diplomatic expenses of the country. Mr. Canning made some reduction, and promised more, but nothing had been since done. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, there was a great reduction this year, and it would be carried still further next year. Sir G. CLERK proposed a vote of 99,0001. to defray the ex pense of repairs and charges of the dockyards. This included a sum of 17,0001. fora naval hospital at Malta. Mr. 31ABERLY thought it extraordinary that the house should be now called upon to vote 17,0001. for a new naval hos pital. The present situation was worse than the former. The mode in which this building was entered upon, without the sanction of parliament, deserved the consideration of the house. The rule was, that no public money should be applied without the sanction of Parliament. There were many resolutions of the house approving of that principle. There was no ease of emergency made out here. He called upon the house to oppose so unconstitutional a vote as this. Why did not the Treasury before bring the matter under the consideration of the house ? The whole affair hitherto was conducted without the sanction of the house. It was not an la ordinary circumstance that would justify s u ch a d e p ar t ur e from the w. Sir G. COCKBURN thought the hon. member put the cue ra ther unfairly. The treasury and the admiralty shewed a great dis inclination to enter upon the work. When an action took place lately in that quarter of the world, the total Inadequacy of the former accommodation was proved. A large reinforcement of men of war went out last summer, and when there were considerable fleets of Russians, French, and Turks, in the Mediterranean, It became necessary to make provision for any contingency that must arise, particularly when it had been proved that the hospital was not adequate even to a peace establishment. Mr. HUME said, what they objected to was the commencement of any work without the express sanction of the Treasury and of Parliament, as required by the Treasury Minutes of 1784 and 1791. He should propose the postponement of the vote until a proper estimate was produced. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought his honourable friend behind him had rendered further expenditure unnecessary. He agreed with the honourable gentleman (Mr. Hume) In the general prin c ipl e . Wi t h respect to t hi s hospital, there was a proper estimate sent from the Admiralty to the Treasury. The Treasury thought best to postpone the work, anticipating a reduction of the six thousand seamen then in the Mediterranean; but in August last circumstances required the augmentation of the men to eight thousand, and this was the emergency which justified the providing of additional accommodation for the sick. Lord ALTHORP said be believed the old Hospital was insuffi cient, and therefore he did not disapprove of a new one. What he complained of was, that u the inconvenience had been so long felt, government did not before bring the matter under the consideration of Parliament. Mr. CROKER said in July last a hope was entertained that the force might be reduced ; but in August, from peculiar circumstances, it became necessary to increase it from 8,000 to 8,500 seamen, and this was the emergency which induced the Treasury to give orders for going on with the work. The emergency was sudden, and there. fore must be suddenly provided for. Mr. WARBURTON said all they asked for was, to postpone the vote until a satisfactory estimate was before the house. Mr. CROKER said a regular estimate was submitted to the Treasury in July last. After a few words from Lord JOHN RUSSELL and the Coon cELLoß of the EXCHEQUER in explanation, Mr. MABERLY said he should persist in opposing the vote until the papers relative to this hospital were printed. In answer to a question from Mr. Hunt, Sir G. COCKBURN said, by the last letter he received, the has. pital was proceeding rapidly, but no money was yet drawn. It was to be done by contract. Dlr. HUME said it was altogether a strange job. The present vote included 4,000/. for a chapel in Pembroke dockyard. Could not the shipwrights attend the neighbouring church? Sir B. MARTIN said there was no church or chapel within two miles of the dockyard; when he was at Pembroke last year, can. plaints were made of the want of convenience to attend divine ser vice. The expense was 2,0001. and if it was postponed another year, it could not be done for leas than double the sum. HUME said he could see no necessity for such an expenditure of money. Sir B. MARTIN said if this church was not built, the conse quence would be to drive the men to the adjoining meetings, which the house he was sure would not sanction. _ _ Colonel DAVIES said that stout shipwrights could and no diffi culty in walking two miles to church. Sir B. MARTIN raid4hese shipwrights had families, who must also attend church. The whole number to be accommodated was about two thousand. In answer to a question front Mr. MAIIIIIRLY, Sir G. CLERK said there was no intention of giving up the Pem broke Yard. Mr. HUME said Pembroke' Yard was now costing the public 6004 a.year for clergymen. That was a heavy charge. Sir B. MARTIN said the gentleman now superannuated was a long time ill, and was obliged to pay a person to do the duty. Mr. HUME said the person who thus did the duty should have been continued at the same salary, and not put the public to addi. tional expellee; be should propose the postponement of this vote of 2,0001. for a chapel until next year. Sir T. BARING spoke in favour of the vote. The erection of large churches, like those of Mary.lapboane, had the effect of entirely closing the chapels, which was not desirable. Mr. PROTHEROE said this might be useful, even if the berd should be given up. He , however, the building would a plain one. Sir G. CLERK said the architecture of this chapel was to be cheap and plain. Mr. TRA NT supported the vote. He could not concur in what , had fallen from the hon. hart, that the churches of Mary.la.bonne emptied the chapels. The truth was, that both churches and chapels were crowded every Sunday. Sir T. BARING said what he stated was a fact. The canes. quence of the erection of the churches in Mary.la.benne was that four chapels were now shut up in the evening. Mr. HUME withdrew his amendment, and objected to another part of the vote, 3,0001. for works on the Lakes of Canada. He wished to know what these works were. Sir G. COCKBURN said they were advanced posts which re. gutted Mr. 01 1 11 said the Americans managed these things better. After the war, they either bunted their ships or broke than up and sold the timber. Sir O. COCKBURN said the American ships in Sacitett's liar. hour were taken as much care of as their own. The Resolution was agreed to. The votes of 210,0001. to defray the charge of provisions foe the troops foreign stations ; and ,000 for the transport service, were thew agreed to. ORDNANCZ Mr. PERCEVAL said, that them was so lltds departure freak the estimates of former years, that be should hays to trouble slut house but with a few words. In 1828, the inane elimmitti% after a close examination into this department, found no cause foe cow. plaint. The hon. member explained some new arrangsments in the form of the estimates, and said that the 'reduction from tbs amount of last year was 33,00 W. on the afiketive, and on ths now-elhodvs, 3,0001. making a total reduction 0f30,01101, He then went over the different votes, shewing where the reduction had been made in the details, and said that he did not think it possible to make any ex tensive reductions in the ordnance of the colonies ; these had bees made under the controul of the noble lord at the head of the depart ment. He concluded by moving a grant of 85.025% to defray the salaries of the Muter-General and Lieutenant-Go oral, and princi pal officers of the Ordnance. Sir J. GRAHAM was most happy to see his hon. friend an. ploying his talents in the public service rather than eating the MINA of idleness, or cringing at the doors of the treasury for favours ; be was glad to see him following the example of his father, who by hie talent and exertions raised himself to the high station in whisk wielded the power and distributed thepatronagc of the state. sitting on that side of the ho use where the principal hiende ll e s t i t majesty's government had lately been found,l3e(Sir J. Orates not one of those who felt so much coyness at supporting a nstory resolution against ministers when his public duty called ow him so to do. Yet he felt pain in submitting propositions to the Minn, which was certainly directed against those amongst whom wan some of his earliest and kindest friends, and he feared that such conduct on his part, coupled with his being favourable to reform, would render him obnoxious to the benches oppqaite. He had net the honour of apersonal acquaintance with the noble individual Wee now held the office of lieut.-general of the Ordnance. But he was no stranger—who was not well acquainted with his noble deeds in arme; how he had risen to the highest estimation in the opinions of foreign princes; how in Portugal, in Spain, and in France, his brilliant ser vices had attracted the notice of his great commanda • and how, at the head of the Household Brigad e , h e had more th an shared the glories of the field of Waterloo ?—(Cheers.) To such a man it would be dastardly in the extreme to refine from party motives any just , reward for the great services he had rendered to the state. But the house would remember that the noble lord, besides this office had already the command of a regiment in the cavalry, and that these were various governorships of garrisons maintained avow edly as sinecures for the reward of great military services. The question then was whether this office wu kept up as a military is. ward, or whether It was n to the service of the state. Upon this question he was at issue with majesty's ministers. The quea. tion was one into which the finance committee, as the house knew, had come to a conclusion in his favour, and he should call their atten tion to the evidence of the Duke of Wellington before that committee, upon which he should contend that the office was unnecessary and ought not be kept up. The Duke of Wellington was asked by the committee—" Do you consider the continuance of the office of Gen. of the Ordnance essential to the well being of the service ?" The answer of the noble duke was--" yes, I do." He admitted that so far the answer was decisive against him; but the noble duke went on to state his reasons, and in them he was prepared to contend that there was full justification of the conclusion to which the finance committee came. The Duke of Wellington proceeded lo say—" The liestenant.general of the ordnance has very berm* duties to perform. I . do not mean to say that the cannot perform them. Be does sometimes perform th u it ie ln ill 4 time the lieutenant-general was absent, and eentedues I was absent myself. When he was absent, 1 perforated the duties of both offices." He contended that, that so far the evidence of the Duke of Wellington proved that each office was vicarious se the other. The noble duke went on to say, " Some of the duties of the Lieutenant General are very Important. He has to ins ppaaaott the troops. Then there is the duty at Woolwich, and the Lion of the men that are to be discharged. And it is neeesarr that the Lieutenant General should belong to the Board of Ordnance, because there should be a military officer attached to that booed." He begged here to call the attention of the house to this fact—that at the time when the noble duke gave this evidence the board wee comprised of one military person and three civilians, whereas now it consisted of four military men and one civilian ; doodlee he conceived that that part of the evidence which went to the neesteity of keeping up the office for the sake of having a military Misr at the Board, was greatly weakened by the change of circumstances. , Since that time, the Ordnance Department had been so re.mode ll ed that no want of military information could be complained of, sines it included two full Generals, two Lieutenant-Generals, and au Colonels. The honourable ronet then read passages from the evidence of Sir H. Hardinge before the Finance Committee, and contended that the abolition of the office was warranted by that es well as by the evidence of the Duke of Wellington. He then ts. ferred to the Report of the Commissioners of Military t=, , which also recommended the reduction of the office. Lord CC, in his evidence before the Commission, stated that the office was ne cessary, in order that the o ffi cer wh o held it might form a link of communication between the military and the civil branches of the Board. And well might Lord Chatham say that in 1811, when there was only one military -officer in the whole department besides the Lieutenant-General. To those who supposed that the Finance Committee had passed over too glibly the opinions of the Duke of Wellington and the Rt. Hon. General opposite, he begged to state that in their Report they had fully set forth the grounds on which they came to a conclusion contrary to that evidence.l'hey stated the conside ration and the reasons upon which they had viewed the evidence of those two distinguished authorities with jealousy, and upon a balance of the evidence had decided against them. They stated that such men were liable to be led by professional feelings to desire to keep up the military establishments in order to meet war, if It should arise, upon a higher scale than was absolutely necessary. This was the opinion of the Finance Committee, to which opinion the right honourable gentleman, when he moved its appointment, bound himself and his colleagues to attend, as I explicitly as a man could bind himself by words. The right honourable gentleman had also advanced opinions of committees, and their proper influence upon the acts of the house, as the most powerful argument upon several recent occasions, b oth negatively and affirmatively upon different questions. The whole of the rlgnt honourable gentleman's speech against the motion of his honourable friend, the member for Dover, on Thursday night, was founded upon the force which any recommendation of that committee must have upon the house with regard to the property tax. And he was free to confess that so powerful did the right tonourable gen tleman's argument appear to his mind, that although he came down to the house intending to support the motion, he went away without doing so. Then what had been the recommendation of the ; finance committee with regard to this question ? It was that the office of lieutenant-general of the ordnance ought not to be kept up in time of peace. And if that opinion was come to by the committee two years ago, how could the bowie now decide that it should be maintained in the present circumstances of the country, when large masses of the pen le were stretching out their hands to them for bread ? (Hear. The government could not in good faith resist its reduction, forthey were not free agents to do so. They bad bound themselves by a pledge to that house to introduce every economy into every department of the State, and to reduce every expense which was not absolutely indispensable in its service. He spoke with entire sincerity when he said that he did not think this office was kept up by the Government from any want of sympathy with the distresses of the people. He believed firmly that the true motive was that of wishing to keep up the patronage of the Govern. nuns, and its influence in that house. He begged the Committee to bear in mind that of the persons holding the offices in the Ord ; none* Department, one was a Peer of Parliament, and the other seven members of that house. (Cheers.) Of the members of that house all were military men too, excepting one, an bon. gentlman„ who indeed acted upon their fi,eld.days, as the muster-master of the opposite beaches, and whose office he knew not how to describe, unless be called him the Ajar Flogellifer of the administration.— ' (Loud laughter.) The amount of the reduction which he had to, propose he knew was trifling. But in these matters " trifles light 6 as air" became " confirmation strong as proofs of holy writ." He called upon the house to repeat their vote of Friday night ; and if the effect of that vote should be to dissolve them, they should then stand erect before their constituents in the consciousness that they ' bad done their duty. By giving another such vote, they would teach the government to think a little less of their patronage and a ' little more of the wishes and expectations of the people. The hon. baronet concluded by moving that the sum be reduced to 83,8251. Mr. PERCEVAL said that if he bad the same distrust in the cue he was about to put to the committee, as he had in his own power to compete with the talent of his bon. friend, he should rise with still more embarrassment than he really felt. But he was so well convinced that if he failed to do justice to the arguments which the case afforded, there were others of his right hon. friends near him who would make up for this deficiency, that he had no distrust atoll as to the decision to which the committee would come. He was considerably relieved from the apprehension of the faro of his boo. friend's attack when he found him compelled to diverge from the question of the office of Lieut.-Genual of the Ordnance and go into the wider and more declamatory field of the number of, garers•n in that house, and the distress of the country. He was not, indeed, surprised at his honourable friend WNhose t*m the most Important of hie speech, after up hill so long in contending with the name of the of Wellington and his right honourable Mend. To thee evidence hebegged to all the attention of thiamin again. The beenumble gentleman then read parts of the evfilasee, sod costaaled that ft expressed a distinct, elm, positive, aid unhesitating 'Flake that the claw was notesszy to the public service. No one could doubt that either the aebis duke or his right honourable Mend were desirous of introducing every sews 'y width was amis. test with the diciest discharge irtas pubis smile, and thee they not only discharged their duds. with the Imes mat, but also cons. polled all who acted under them to do the meta Why, then, there was the euthesityef these diedegulabed peons, who diedectly de. chiral that the ogees were neeereary ; - aa spleen thee they had the cleelmeidea of a ceentnittee composed of goademeenssMesly ignorant itilas apes which a Mrs.* sigh' Se be fanned who ' s/kg the evidence, chose to say that dier ad act believe it, edit ' was not neeenney. The cenniktee bad riled aced A s i r I mmo Apo o d oir a woo to milinuri en usea la /WM of keeplll 411111Wilefili. H. would ask if wee nothing et bies la the We& et fosa gestlemla appsehe a modes during a placenan, and particularly • placentas who had a scat ia that house ? Why then he would tike the two biasses, and like equal qualities they would destroy each other, and the simple quell don remained where it was, a choice between knowledge, experience, and zeal, on the one hand, telling them that the office could not be done without, and on the other absolute ignorance, telling them that it could. There was no men in that house or In the country who could really doubt the sincere desire of the Duke of Wellington is introduce every practicable retrenchment and economy into all the branched of the public service, and there was no one who could not believe that the noble duke was stating his sincere and lioue,t opinion when he stated his belief in the necessity of the office. Fot these reasons he thought the committee would not consent to it. reduction. Lord J. RUSSELL said, that if the vote of the Committee wee : , in favour of keeping up the office of Lieutenant-General of the Ord. nance, it would not be upon the grounds which the hon. gentktnan had put forward. He had never heard a Committee of that House treated with more disrespect, he would say with such contempt, as by the honourable member, excepting in the speeches of 110 inc radical reformer, who wished fee a new system of representation, founded upon universal suffrage. The noble lord contended that Finance committees had at all times been treated with particular respect by the house, and that the right hon, gentleman who moved the ap pointment of the last spoke of its prospective recommendations es being the grounds upon which the government would act. The committee, after examining all the evidence in the case, had pro nounced against the continuance of the office, and the house ought to support them in that decision. Gen. GROSVENOR said that he did not think the finance com mittee ought to be the guides of the house upon this question. He thought they ought rather to embrace the opinions of the army. This was only a paltry sum of 1200/. which he thought ought not to be taken from general officers. who were but too ill-rewarded. Why did not the hon. baronet propose to reduce a prebendary of Lancaster? He should vote against the amendment. Mr. PERCEVAL said that in using the words " absolute igno rance," he bad not intended the slightest disrespect to the members of the finance committee. He had only spoken of their ignorance of the details necessary to forming a correct judgment upon this ques tion, of which they must unquestionably have been ignorant. It would have been most unbecoming in ham to have used the words in any other sense, or to have treated the committee with intentional disrespect. The Earl of UXBRIDGE said that although he was opposed to his majesty's government, from a general disapproval of their policy and measures, yet he could not vote for the proposed reduction, after the decided opinion of the Duke of Wellington, and his own belief in the necessity of the office. Mr. LIDDELL supported the original grant. Lord 110 WICK denied that the house ought to be borne down by the authority of the Duke of Wellington ; and said that he should support the amendment. Sir H. HARDINGE said be had heard with great regret the decided terms in which his Noble Friend had declared his hostility to his Majesty's Government ; but be must say th a t the opinion of that Noble Lord, and of his father, for whom he had the highest professional respect, was most valuable evidence against the proposition of the hon.baronet, who came forward as the abolitionist of all offices. The house should bear in mind that, al. though the finance committee had recommended the reduction of the office of Lieut.. Gen. of the Ordnance, yet that their recommendation had been rejected by a large majority of the house immediately after that recommendation was made. The opinion of the finance committer was this : They appeared to recommend the abolition of the office on the ground that the absence of the General of the Ordnance was an ar gument for theretnoval of the Lieut.-Gen. Now the committee would be astonished to hear how seldom the Muter-General of the Ord. nance had been absent. During the last thirty years, the instances of absence had been few. Lord Alulgrave was never absent. Lord Mirka was never absent. Lord Chatham absent six months. The Duke of Wellington absent six months at the Congress of Verona and Vienna. In 25 years them had been an absence of 18 months, which, upon the average, was three woks in each year. The in. stances in which Lieutenants-General were absent marked their splendid military services. Sir Wm. Clinton was sent to take the commandof the troops in Portugal, and during the absence of Sir W. Clinton the office was designed by Lord Goderich's Administration for Sir Herbert Taylor. 'The utility of the office had been acknow ledged by Mr. Canning. In 1822 that great Statesman, in a very able wech, gave an opinion in favour of the continuance of it. When the Duke of Wellington offered the Lieutenant-General of the Ordnance to Lord Hill, and secondly to Lord Beresford, the duties were consi dered so laborious that those officers were compelled to remain during the greater part of the year in London. The Duke of Wellington in 1822 declared the office to be necessary for the public service, and on that occasion the noble duke co u ld h ave entertained no idea that the office of Lieutenant-General would be attacked. It was a proof of the sincerity of his evidence in 1828. The finance committee said the evidence of the noble duke could not overcome the absence of the lieutenant-general, but that absence had been nothing, as he had before stated. The right hon. gentleman gave evidence himself, and he could assure the committee that it was sincerely given. He could not avoid saying the ordnance department had bun harshly treated. When officers of artillery were doing increased duty, the bon. member for Cumberland said, " We know you work hard, but you shall work harder, and we will reward you by taking away from you an important of fi ce." Was it fair, then, after the board of ordnance had done so much to praise them for their exertions, and say at the same time, " We in s i s t on t a ki ng away your li eut. . general of the ordnance ?" He called on the house to resist the amendment of the hon. baronet, and thereby avoid casting a slur on such men as the Duke of Wellington. He recommended the com mittee to confirm by their decision that night the former decisions of 1822 and 1828, as well as the opinion of a noble marquis, who had given distinct evidence of the necessity for keeping up the office. He should contend that a more unjust proposition had never been made in that house. Lord ALTHORP expressed an opinion that the house was at liberty to nisi:use evidence given before a committee without being supposed to impeach the veracity of the witnesses. The noble duke and others had stated that this dike could not be dispensed with, but it was the duties of the office which they made the subject of complaint. If the master-general of the ordnance was absent, he admitted that the lieutenanngeneral was a most efficient officer, but they would allow no deputies; they might as well have a deputy chancellor of the exchequer. It was true that the finance tem. mittee approved of the duties done by the board of ordnance; but there was an exception with respect to the lieut.-general. (Cries of " no.") It appeared to him that when the master-general was pre sent, the duties could be performed without the lieut-generaL '1 be noble lord supported the amendment. Lord E. SOSIERSET said the noble lord wee in error in sup posing the duties of the general and lieutenant-general of the Ordnance were one. He had filled the office, and was able to say, from his experience of the duties, that they were separate, and must be discharged by a distinguished officer. The nettle lord felt it to be his duty, upon a oqration of so much importance, to oppose the has baronet's aosendnseat. Mr. MABERLY considered the office of lieutenant-general of Ordnance unnecessary, and therefore should support his hon. friend's amendment. Lord MORPETH alluded to the opinion expressed by Lord Moira In 1810. The office of lieutenant-general of ordnance was clearly understood to be coupled with that of the master-general. If the master.general was sent abroad to serve in the arm), the lieute nant would then be called on to do his duty. Beyond that contine gent service the lieutenant had nothing to do; he remained a mere member of the board. Such was the opinion of Lurd Moira. The finance committee of 1828 confined their views of reduction to the abolition of the office of lieutenant-general. Since that day distress bad increased in the country, and he thought the recommendation of the committee ought to be carried into -Wan I _ Mr. Secretary PEEL said, although no man could be more &s -peed than himself to give full credit for sincerity, be was nevcrthe. less of opinion that the hon. baronet should submit his arguments and statements to salutary examination. Whatever sincerity the bon. baronet might have felt, he certainly had moved himself, as be al. ways did, a skilful advocate, by pates; his his speech every sr. gamest that could make an impserdes ea the hem. The influence of the crown, the affair of Terceira, and the Ajaa himself, bad hem used to prove that the lieut.-gamed of ortinems was not a neamosay once. One argument of the henearable Wesel met as rem that 'there was an intention on the pm of his mejsales osesdromat to • ahem a want of respect kw the menu emend dew frnence cm. mince. Now what was the fact wi th newt *that senuaktee ? They hod made four fall report' en'heade of pu*s Novice, and in everyhensa,withiicmetepiesdthsseiseofLiettudlen Of Ord. oases, his mejsetrs gwamsemhaiadspeedtWrreanmenatlatioos, If the seseentendai in the repent to sheikh the Ail of lieu- Mantimisal et calm* was me mike lift Mot, it was haw* that ease could net be without Wary to the pthnethrice. The Dohs of 'W said it was his esavitdes dna the dike shoed be • Was it the of thy to? ppeal to the hone oplpet the of rearlimmikite lf they seta out' as wpm the apiinee of the MU of Watson in wish saltier. the Fewer stew wiwneleulds• was a lint, (Mier.) Who el* do itMirYrais who asweadsd that the ceatimmee of the moo woad bade thiossawyf Thojeiwt pew ens whe had labeened to make seisetiese he die Away. prig the time the Duke of Welles*. was he the games Deponnint, the Kooken,* were reduced one silo. The elosonsiest o If they wawa tows *dr mind to selloothoo he en ex mike* mei de Nue dna fay AWN CSIMININIS The Veit Ilesevieelde Geo damn reed a porecaph la the Impart el the Mose amelitke. kWh said the Seventetest ienad i mete he dilbsdot taislttsets than the Corawilties thief. ItaaCtille had hem Elsie shoe *Wei. akin deed tie Mem se the Woe a 1111,01011:s yaw. It billet I bsen disissainise se *doh heat beipeky that ship had met roma simoded the re.erphttatant et the !Uwe Coonnite , _het hereon limy were dkipeesit •he oohs reenneshe tbeitlesein Oks amp sight. wpm the bunko of the teseetwer of the awry, he peoveedist -4017 reasonable. Therefore I say it has worked well. That Bill had also this advantage, which no other corn bill ever had,—that it was car mil into execution without any interruption. All the corn laws that I ever knew, and the amended bill amongst the rest, were infringed upon by government every year or two years, by the great quantity of corn which was brought in without paying any duty at all. This was, of course, attended with great profits to some one, but was a great disadvantage to the agriculture of this country. One great object of my Bill, as your lordships perceive, was to give protection to the agricultural interest of this country ; not merely in a political point of view, as an indemnifi. cation to them for the heavy duties which the nobility and gentry have to perform, but with the more extended view of seeming to the country a supply of this necessary of life under all the va riations of season, favourable or otherwise. The noble baron ri dicules the apprehensions respecting the possibility of a duty being laid abroad upon corn coming into this country. Is he ignorant of Bonaparte's having laid a tax of 20s. a quarter upon all licenses for importing corn into this country, and that in fact, he derived as much revenue from this source as he did from Austria and Prussia, when he was master of the capitals of their kingdoms ? If Bonaparte did so, what is to prevent the King of Prussia or the Emperor of Russia, from doing the same ? The Earl of ROSSLYN—" And in fact, the King of Prussia did lay on such a duty in 1801." The Duke of WELLINGTON—Most assuredly, there is no. thing to prevent them doing so again. We ought not to calculate upon their forbearance; if they find us trusting to their supply they will certainly take advantage of it. Government, then, my lords, cannot do otherwise than secure to the country, in some way or other, those supplies from its own resources, which, if we trusted i to foreigners for, war and other circumstances might totally pre vent. (Hear.) The noble baron has occupied some of your lordship? time by enlarging upon the want of profits which the shutting up of markets by this corn bill will produce to our manufacturers. He proposes that we should take corn from 1 the continent in exchange for our manufactures, by which the profits of the manufacturer would be greatly increase d. But he forgets the great cause of the depression of profits—the low prices of manufac ture abroad, and the high duties imposed upon those of foreign workmanship in other countries. In some places there is a positive prohibition against them—in others, very high, amounting to nearly a prohibition; in all a determination to encourage their own, and to discourage the manufacture of strangers. I ask, then, the noble baron, what good it will do us to traffic in this way ? If we buy all the corn in Poland, can we sell an article the more in France, Prussia, or Russia ? I should think not. The emperor of Russia will say, " You buy my corn because you want it, and you must pay for it; but as you would not come here if you did not want it, I shall not take an article of your manufacture, be. cause of your taking my corn." But, if the buying corn of the Pole, the Russian, or the Prussian, enable them to give high prices for your manufactures, why don't you give the same advantages to those nearer home? (Hear.) The noble baron himself admits that the home market is the best we have, and that of the largest of our manufactures—cotton, two thirds are consumed at home; of woollens, the whole ; and of iron, and other manufactures, a very considerable portion. I ask, then, if such profits are to be derived from an exchange with a foreign market, why you do not cultivate the home, which is admitted to be the best market of all ? This, my lords, is not my conclusion, it follows from the noble lord's own observations. My lords, this is a subject which has been over and over again discussed in your lordships house, and it is one which admits of a great deal of discussion. lam not one of those who are unfriendly to such discussions—l think the more it is discussed, the more will the country see that the interests of one are the interests of all ; that there is no distinct interest for cotton, iron, or any other trade, but that all are concerned in ar riving at the same result—the producing the greatest quantity of provisons ; affording to the producers such a security as so im portant an interest deserves, and at the same time taking care that the consumers shall have the provisions at the lowest possible price which, under all circumstances, they can be sold for—(hear.) The Earl of ROSSLYN said, by papers laid before the house, it appeared that, in 1801, the King of Prussia laid a tax upon corn in his dominions, and upon its being remonstrated against by his sub jects, he answered, " The tax will be but temporary ; as soon as coin falls in England to 60s or 60s it shall be taken off." So that it was cleat foreigners knew how to avail themselves of our wants — (hear.) Lord KING shortly replied. The resolutions were then put by the Lord Chancellor, and nega. tired without a division. Adjourned at Nine o'Clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS-MONDAY. Petitions were presented from Manchester against the introduc. tion of the new police system into that town ; against the opening of the trade in beer; against the monopoly of the East India Com pany, from several towns; and several petitions complaining of overwhelming distress from all parts of the country. . CURRENCY. Sir F. BURDETT begged to state that he this morning received a note from Lord Eldon, in which that noble lord denied the doc trine attributed to him the other evening by the hon. baronet, iris. tire to the currency of the country. He (Sir F. Burdett) felt it necessary to make this statement in justification of the noble lord.