Star. — London, England, 1820-05-17 00:00:00

„ , • 111 I 1 1 11 ; II h. tion. That Revolution had raised so many from the lowest ranks to the possession of power, wealth, and dignity ; and the acquisition of public plunder had enriched so many, that it was nf , t w;;lnierful that many persons were found who - proposed such objects to themselves from a general disturbance. Still it was certain, that such persons in broaching their doc trines could not have collected the numerous audi tories which attended them, if it had not been for the stimulant of distress. If plenty, satisfaction, and content, were diffused through all ranks, the number of those who would wish for a change in the Consti tution could not but be very small. This would be seen by a reference to more prosperous years; but now, when the want of employment, and the priva tions attendant upon it were so widely diffosed— when the pressure of taxation was so severely felt by all classes, to which peace had brought no correc tive, and when no relief in this indisposition of the community was obtained from regular practitioners, it was no wonder that the people listened to the in terested ignorance of empirical disturbers. But the severest power of distress was chiefly felt in the ma nufacturing districts: and he could not help think ing it a mischievous system, which afforded an ex cessive encouragement to manufacturers. They were a class of persons who regarded more their present profits than their future interests, and they did not bear in an equal portion with' others, the burdens of the State. Here the Noble Lord instanced the Poor Rates, and remarked upon the injustice and impolicy of one class being obliged to discharge what was the duty of all, and that the most valuable class of the community. Ile remarked also upon the children of manufacturers being, instead of a burden, a source of profit to them when very young. Another inju rious effect of the encouragement of manufactuiers was, that it congregated large numbers for combina tion and conspiracy. He asked if the Meeting of the 16th of August would have taken place, if Manches ter had not been a scat of manufactures ? but the agriculturists were scattered over the country, and had not the same opportunity to meet in large num bers, which seldom happened but at a market or a fair. Another inconvenience of the manufacturing system was, that thousands of artizans might he de prived of employment by a trifling change in the article of fashion. Foreign trade also might be limited or shut up by war or municipal regulations, against which we had not the right of remonstrance. As to the origin of the present distress, it did not commence with the peace, nor was it altogether • caused by that event. By reference to the Journals• of the other House, it would be found, that some years before the termination of the war there had been petitions front Manchester, complaining of the depression of trade. But the war had given trade a false stimulus; it had multiplied wild and visionary speculation, commencing in delusion, and ending in disappoititmeat. Though in the public documents the balance of exports seemed in favour of the coun try, yet from part being captured, and part never sold, and others never paid for, the balance of pay ment was really against the country. The Noble Lord then made some observations upon the Conti nental System, spewing how precarious was the source of wealth which a nation derived from supplying others with articles of manufacture, as was shewn by the consequences of Napoleon's blockade. He then proceeded to eulogise the character and habits of a population essentially agricultural. Such a popula tion was the real basis of the prosperity and power of a nation. They were also distinguished by their at tachment to the laws, their moral feelings, and Loyalty—and they were, therefore, peculiarly de serving of justice and protection. He declared the Corn Laws to be just and necessary ; but he denied that they were meant merely as a protection for agri culturists, as was falsely and malignantly stated in A book which he had read with disgust, and which said that the Corn Bill was a tax on the first neces saries of life, laid on by land-owners, in order to raise their rents. This was false, because the riches of proprietors did not rise from a high rent, but from rent, compared with the value of money, the state of taxation, and other circumstances. The Corn Bill was so framed, that it protected the country frem all dan ger of absolute famine in unfavourable seasons, and even allowed of such a supply when corn became dear as would prevent it being at any time excessive.— Unless there was a protecting duty no corn would be sown, and then it could not be procured by goods, which other nations would not take, nor by the pre cious metals, which we had not. The Noble Lord then remarked upon the grievance of the Poor Rates, the amount of which was, at present, half as much al:ain as the whole expense of the Civil Establishment in 1792. lino effectual remedy was devised against their further increase, the consequence would be that the produce of lands would be portioned out to the poor, in conformity with the doctrines of the Spen ceans. It was .a great and growing evil, and de :minded a remedy. Ile then proceeded to animadvert upon the conduct of Government, in having, in a season of -peace and excessive taxation, added three millions to the burdens of the country, which was groaning under a load of debt. After a few more observations relative to the state of the currency, as :affecting prices, he proceeded to say, that his plan for the employment of the poor did not contemplate anyt:.ing merely temporary. It was to afford per. manent relief, not like the employment on public roads and public works, it was to furnish them with the means of settled subsistence, and render them in dependent of parochial relief. He was aware that se veral plans had been proposed for the permanent employment of the poor, none of which were satisfac tory. This was not exactly the same as any of them. A Mr. Thornton had an Institution for the manufac ture, by the pcor, of certain articles, which might be possibly applied to the improvement of ‘Vorkhouses. lie then observed upon the design of cultivating the waste lands at Dartmoor, and said, that the merit of a plan of this kind depended upon the applicability of its principles. It might be said, that what succee t re n d er :t l Dartmoor would succeed everywhere else ; but that argument was, in his apprehensi on , a storesequitur. Ile approved of cultivation by the spade, and he thought a spot of ground would not be the worse cultivated because the produce was not to go to a market, but to be consumed by him who cultivated it. There was another circumstance which he would mention, namely, that the imprudent mar riages of the poor sig;re the result of their present distressed condition. If the poor man were placed in a comfortable situation, there would be a moral rertraint to such an engagement; but when the - poor man saw no other prospect but misery, that rests was removed, and he felt that his condition inl l it, ,though it might be altered, could not . he injured by marriage ; but in other situations, aniOg the middle and higher classes of society, men felt that they had happiness to lose, and were, therefore, not willing thus to hazard it. The Noble Lord made some al lusions to the employment of the poor in the fisheries. The last point, upon which he would say a few words, was the introduction of machinery, which had tended so considerably to aggravate the public distress, by driving out of employment so many iilivideals, and which had been stated by the papers on their Lord ships' table, as one of the causes of public distress.— He could not better explain what he meant than by a reference to what the situation of the country was forty years ago ; that part of it, at least, with which he was acquainted, Devonshire. NVages were then six shillings a week, and at the present time they were increased to seven. With so trifling an increase of wages, and the immense strides of manufacture, was it to be supposed that the peasant could enjoy anything like comfort ? If manufactures then were to be encouraged, they should not be encouraged at the expense of agriculture. He readily admitted that they might be found serviceable to the master ma nufacturers, but he questioned much their general utility. He was aware that the subject was difficult, but he felt that it was too important to allow of de lay ; it embraced their best interests, and he could appeal, he was sure with confidence, to the benevo lence of that august assembly. To their honour, sense, and feeling, he confided his proposition, and he was satisfied that it would meet with due considera tion.. He should, therefore, move " for the appoint ment of a Committee to propose means for affording Permanent Employment to the Poor, particularly in the Manufacturing Districts." The Earl of LIVERPOOL did not rise for the purpose of considering the var. us important matters brought before the consideration of the House by the Noble Lord who had just addressed them. To enter upon their consideration would, in fact, amount to an examination of the first principles of political eco nomy--it would be to take a view of their applica tion to the agriculture, manufactures, and commerce, not only of this, but of every other country. He must, however, thank the Noble Lord for the can dour which he had shewn in bringing the subject forward upon such grounds that his object appeared to be what it really was, to - make the country diffe rent in all respects from its former situation. It was upon that ground that he could not consent to the motion. Ile felt that in bringing forward that mo tion the Noble Lord was as anxious as himself to promote the benefit of the country; and sorry was he to say, that, with the exception of the sentiment which actuated him, he was compelled to give his en tire mad unqualified dissent to the whole proposition which bad been brought before them—a proposition as fatal as it was injurious, calculated to advance and pro ' mote the interests of agriculture, upon the very ruin of their manufactures. He, for one, would never give his consent to such a proposition. He felt, and was persuaded, that the existence of the one de pended upon the other, and that, unless they both flourished, there would little advantage arise from the temporary superiority of either. Where was the manufacturer who did not look forward, if not in his own life-time, at least during the lives of his heirs, to vest his property in land? who did not look for ward to such a prospect as his best security? He should not then trouble their Lordships with going into the subject, but he must say a few words respect ing the remarks of the Noble Lord upon the encou ragement that should be given to the fisheries; and, he could assure the Noble Lord, that it was a subject which had occupied a considerable share of the at tention of Ministers ; but if the Noble Lord could throw any new lights upon the subject—if he could shew how a better supply of fish could be procured, and a better market established, for that was a main consideration—if he could shew how these objects could be effected, he should be very happy to receive such information, and he would unquestionably give it due consideration. He doubted very much whether any inquiry would produce such beneficial results ; but he had said so much, because the censure of the Noble Lord (Stanhope) 'appeared tohim to be founded upon notions altogether erroneous. On the subject of reclaiming waste lands, which had been adverted to by the Noble Lord, they had many plans before them ; but he doubted the expediency of any measure for such a purpose. They had frequently tried it in localities, such as the inclosing of ground for an hos pital, or a similar purpose, but they could not thus convert the whole of the waste lands of England. A great deal of capital bad been employed upon waste lands, and those who were much conversant with agricultural districts knew that the temptation of high prices had induced many individuals to embark a considerable deal of property in such speculations ; but he believed that they were then very generally convinced that such money was ill applied. And it was at the public expense, too, that the Noble Lord required that those lands should be cultivated, those lands which were unworthy of the labour of an in dividual, were to be tilled at the expense of the Pub lic. He would ask the House, then, whether they were prepared to admit such an inquiry? If ever there had been an improvement which tended to the advancement of the country, which accelerated her progress in arms and in commerce, the invention of machinery was that improvement! It had been arms and legs to the maimed, and almost sight to the blind ! at had been the source of all their power, and wealth, and opulence, and it had enabled the country to compete with and surpass all the nations of Eu rope. When an Englishman looked around him and surveyed the nations of the earth, when lie saw them Fast, West, North, and South, superior in climate, in soil, and in all the bounties of nature, to what could be attributed those blessings which he so pre eminently enjoyed, but to the superior energies of those mighty minds who devoted their lives and la bours to the improvement of machinery? It was to such men as Mr. Watt, Mr. Arkwright, and Mr. Bolton, that they owed much of their superiority in the scale of nations. But even if they were willing to throw aside the advantages of machinery, it_ was quite impossible that they could so retrograde in ci vilization as to be able to effect that object. With such feelings, therefore, on the subject, he could not concur in the present motion; he was unwillin at the same time, to treat it with an unjust prejudice, and should therefore move the previous question. Earl STANHOPE. made a short reply, in which he complained that his Noble Friend had niisunder stood him, both on the subject of waste lands and on that of machinery ; regretted that the money spent in useless expeditions, such :is that to the North Pole, was not laid out in the erection of cottages; remon strated against the rejection of his general motion, on the ground that his Noble Friend objected to his specific plan; and declared, that as his opinions on the subject were unchanged, he should feel it hip duty to enter them on the Journals. The previous question was then carried without a division, and the House adjourned. 110 USE OF COMMONS. The SPEAKER informed the House that he had received a second letter from Mr. Bouchier, containing the further names of Gentlettion who were willing to serve as Commissioners in Ireland, under the 42ci George 111. Lord TEN!ri,E presented a Petition from certain Land holders in the County of Buckingham, complaining of Agricul tural Distresses, and praying relief. Mr. S3llTapresented three similar Petitions from different bodies of Landholders irr the same County.—Laid on the Table. Mr. D. W. HARVEY gave notice, that on Friday next he should move fnr a Return of the number of Writs of Error al lowed by the Cursitor during the last three years. Mr. DENISON presented a Petition irons the Inhabitants of St. Mary, Newington, against the Newington Church Bill.— Laid on the Table. Mr. STUA RT WORTLEY presented a Pztltion from the Merchants and Manufacturers of Halifax, against the late Duties on Wool.—Laid on the Table. On the motion of Mr. WODEHOUSE, the Norwich Gas light Bill was read a second time and committed. Mr. BY NG presented a Petition from the Rector and Inha bitants of St. Andrew, Holborn, and St. George the Martyr, complaining of theinjury sustained by the smoke caused by Brew eries, and other Public Establishments.—Referred to the Com mittee of Inquiry into the means of making steam-engines con sume their own smoke. Sir W. CURTIS moved for an Account of the total amount of Coal Duties paid into the Orphans' Fund, from the sth of April, 1619, to the sth of Aptil, 1620, specifying the balance remaining in the Treasurer's hands.—Oatered. Mr. Score, from the Chamber of London, brought up cer tain Accounts, amongst which were those moved fur by the worthy Baronet. A new Writ was ordered for Athlone, in the room of Juno M'CLuvrocit, Esq. who had accepted the office of Escheater of Munster. Lord EDWARD SOMERSET presented a Petition, signed by upwards of 5000 Inhabitants of the County of Gloucester, against the late Duties on Wool.—Ordered to be printed. Lord ALTHORP presented four Petitions from different bodies a Landholders in the County of Northampton, com plaining of the distresses under which the Agricultural Interests laboured, and praying for relief. The Noble Lord said, that he would reserve his opinions on this question until a future occa sion, when the question would be brought more fully under the consideration of the Ilouse.—The PratiOES were read and laid on the Table. On the motion of Mr. D. GILBERT, a Committee was ap pointed to inquire into the state of the Public Roads in Enziand and Wales, and to report thereon to the House. Lord CHA IMES MANNERS presented a Petition from the Inhabitants of Wisbeach, Isle of Ely, complaining of the distress which the Agriculturists of that part of the country were suffering, an 4 praying for some measure of relief. Lord MILTON could not help remarking, that this Petition was a strong evidence that distress was not confined to one class of persons in the country. Here was a complaint of the dis tressed state of agriculture from a considerable maritet town, the inhabitants of which were not engagLd in any agricultural pursuit. The Petition Ns-as read and laid on the table. Lord A LTIIORP moved " for an Account of Auction Duties on Agricultural Produce for a specific period."—Ordered. FREE TRADE. Mr. FINLAY trusted, that in presenting a Petition from the Chamber of Commerce of the City of Glas gow, praying for a free trade, the House would allow him to make a few observations on the subject. The Petitioners conceived that the present state cf trade was greatly affected by the existing restrictions, and that their existence ought not to be made dependent on any relaxation of those subsisting in other States. The restrictions of which they complained had neither been established by the present Administration, nor by their immediate predecessors; but he must ob serve, at the same time, that when opportunities had offered themselves to throw the trade open, they had not been embraced. In the recent arrangements which had taken place between Government and the East India Company, our trade in the East had been placed on a footing full of restrictions, whilst the American merchant; being under no such restrictions beyond the Cape of Good Hope, possessed very con siderable advantages over the British trader. It would, in fact, have been impossible for the United States themselves to have established regulations better calculated to increase their trade, and to re press ours, than those which now existed in this country. This he would ijeustrate in a few words.— Suppose that an American and an English merchant, both resident in London, should receive at the same time intelligence of some change in India likely to create a .great demand for some particular article. In such cases, secrecy and dispatch were the two chief ingredients of success. The American would instantly embark the goods which be thought most likely to lind a market, in a vessel of 150 or 200 tons, which would be sufficient for the undertaking, and in less than a month the whole operation would be effected. What would be the case with the Eng lish merchant? He would first have to consult Counsel, to know what he had a right to do. He must then apply to the East India Company for a license for the ship, and, as they never gave any for supercargoes, he must address himself to the Board of Controul. He must then wait a whole month, and being at last informed that he can have a license, might begin to load his ship by the time that the American set sail. In two months he might be in a. situation to undertake the voyage, but even then he could not do it with a vessel proportioned to the enterprize: he must employ one of 350 tons, and would be thus at double the expense incurred by the American, besides his difficulies and loss of time.— He would put it to the House, whether this was not a great hardship ?—whether it WAS not a draw back upon our commerce which called for redress? He did not mean to propose, that the privileges of the India Company should be infringed upon. On i former occasion, he had opposed the granting ofcer tain privileges to that Company, but these privileges having been granted, he should be the last man to propose a violation of them. It was not enough to say, that the Company did hot avail themselves of these privileges, and, therefore, they should he de prived of them. What he wanted, was to draw the attention of Parliament to'the subject; it the con• sent of the Company be obtained, if it could be ob tained, to the removal of th o s e restr i ct i ons , b ut i n the meantime, there were many points on which the I trade of the country could be opened with infinite advantage to it s commercial ptosperity. Th ere was, I for instance, the circuitous trade, and the t ade to places not under the controul of the India Company, or not traded to by them. It certainly wa; matter. of choice with the India Company, whether or not they would tolerate British merchants to participate in those advantages enjoyed by the Americans, lint it was tot too much to expect that they would give the former the preference. 11 the ble Lord ..(Casa tlereagh) were in his place, he would remind him of what he 'promised rahen the Circuitous - Trade Bill was before the House. The Noble Lord, on that occasion, pledsed himself to an inquiry into it on the return of peace. Ile should not trouble the House much farther on the sehject, as he hoped that it would, at no distant a eriod, he brought more pare.: cularly under discussion, to the benefit of the many.; factures and commerce of the contitry. There were yet, however ; a few points to which he wished to re-; • fer. It was urged, that a free trade was very good. in theory, hut that it could never be beeeficially res: duced to practice. Ile felt convinced, that it could be reduced to practice, at least to a greater extent. and much more beneficially, than was contemplated by those Gentlemen who opposed it. So convinced was he of this, that he felt surprised it was not taken up and enforced by his Majesty's Ministers, and car ried as far as it sea; found beneficially practicable._ An Honourable Member had on a former evening pointed- out many cases where restrictions could be removed ssithont trenching on the privileges of the India Company, but by which the com merce of the country would be greatly improved. It would be of the greatest advantage if shipping were allowed to import freely all the produce they thought proper from other countries.... This would not only benefit our trade, but would also benefit the shipholder. The bonding system was also alluded to on a former occasion. He would be glad to know what disadvantage could arise from a regulation of that system ? The true principle upon which it was originally founded, was that of ena bling us to import for the purpose of exporting the produce of this country to the country where it was consumed. It was clearly our interest, that what was imported into this country should be importel at as small a charge as possible. He wished also to throw out a suggestion as to the propriety of aban doning duties on the raw niatei ial. There were cer tainly certain articles upon which such a duty ope rated most injuriously. There were one or two other points to which he wished to allude. It was of the utmost importance that our Revenue Laws should be placed on a steady and per manent footine. Extents in Aid also was a subject which demanded inquiry. It surely never was the intention cf the Legislature that a private . individual should seize on anoth er ' s property, to the prejudice of other creditors, under pretence of a debt to the Crowe ? This was a point which demanded the attention of Government.— There was another point which he conceived to be a greater impediment to the wealth and commerce of the country than any other, he meant the Usury Laws. Those laws were a great restraint on the pro. per employment of capital. He was aware tipt many Gentlemen differed widely from him on this subject. But he hoped that an inquiry N-ould take place, and he was sure the house would see the ne cessity of altering the existing regulations. The Bankrupt Laws also called for a revision ; it was im possible that commerce could flourish under the ex isting Bankruptcy Regulations. One word more on the subject of a free trade. If it was deemed dan gerous at once to remove all restrictions, at least they might be removed on a few articles. He was sure, that if this were done, the competition which it would cause would be of great advantage to the country. There were some of our manufactures at which he would speak with hesitation ; but with respect to the cotton manufacture he felt no hesi tation in saying, that a removal of all restric tions would be attended with infinite advantage.— He wished to see the cottons of all other countries imported here ; from what he had seen abroad, he was sure it would be attended with benefit. We had something to learn, and as to any Continental mar kets outselling us to any extent, it was out of the question. He thought A removal of restrictions, as to cutlery and hardware, would also be of service to both these trades; besides, it would set to other naa tions an example of what was the only true system of commercial intercourse between nations. The Honourable Member, adverting to what was sari by Mr. Baring on a former evening, observed, that he differed with that Hoia curable Member on two points; first, he did riot think that the other nations of Europe, or even that America, could more ea s ily recover from its emb arrassments than we could. It was certainly true with respect to France, but not with respect to Germany or America, though the debt and taxation of the latter country were trifling compared to curs. Neither did he look so despond ingly to our situation as that honourable Member did. He was happy to see our commerce and ma nufactures reviving, and he hoped in a few months to see them flourish. The Honourable Member (Mr. Baring) had truly said, that peace and good order were essential to prosperity. The People were by degrees coming back from that delusion and infatiai tion into which their own folly had plunged theta, and which, had they persevered in it, must have worked their own destruction. He expected in a short time to see the wages of the labourer such as to afford him those comforts of which be had for a long time been deprived. He would not trouble the Hons.: further. He would leave in their hands the Petition; it was one which demanded their serious considera tion, equally from the character of the Petitioners and theimportance of the subject of v. hich it treated. Lt the great man (Adam SniThr), whose sentiments the Petition contained, had but lived to see his doctrines thus expounded, it must have afforded him incon ceivable pleasure. The Petition was brought up and read. On the question that it do lie on the table, Mr. BARING said, that a Petition coming from so great and respectable a body'as the Manufacture:s of Glasgow, deserved the most favourable attentioit from that House. Every efficient means ought tore taken to promote their reasonable objects—every con sideration was duo to their reasonable claims. iVhen he had, a few days ago, presented a similar Petition to the House, from the merchants and Traders et London,. he moved that it should lie on the table, in order to see, in the meantime, what the other great cornier chi towns would be disposed to do. Ile did so, because he felt convinced that w'ae•ever might ka I i