Star. — London, England, 1808-02-25 00:00:00

'. iMerTml=!lm===lllP=mniMMltV:Nur PARLIAMENTART rRoCELDINGs. ?At. tills HOUSE OF LORDS, RrIiDNESDAY, IrSIiRLIARY S 4. • Set Sicatris Rosette was this 4/ licaactl rd in tike Shelties e. Patrick, for the Reeritident, tie woe Send fa Monday seat. Tbe Peak Three MilhoinaUtnitlLaNtUldia 1111-Weetireialis tecondlisrie, 12te sj =ican Intercetielello4llir-e4 gemesiele* . I.totiSt 01i Obilltletitit ~ . .. ... The Sepann)sayhtlicritlt, SValk e • pauses final the: ;ey Nan 4 c presented, puma% to v a l et' .iiitiigigt . tbk istdelFak Wane repharn,•prayine ce *halo* eir the precede vir abe ilk PEtnisco, WNW,. and Coil' deemed by the Court of JUlnalegite mate tears ago, fox !omen , - belt/Midi. Orliiel to lie ii4tiel'akte. A New Writ-ifes ettlestiffier titaelesoion et a Member ..for Trsts.-m the eselS se the He& Mann Ststemsen, now Lovd Instant Pillibils, itelltd %e the Muse e(Peetts. A-Petitilik wet pretested from certain Pecishiesters of theßec. tory of Steneaboterne, Northinninsianol, pray hig leave to bring in a Militir sivielng the said Rectory into - several emdler tiring", row intim elk of tbeGovernots of Grienwich Hosiital.--Re • fated to a Committee of the Members serving fee Vorthumber land. • hit. MELLISH presented a Petition from the Tancen of the Ci of Loudon and County of Middlesex, praying aBO to pre y the legacies et raw Shins and Hides in London and its vi i tty c' . Referred to a Committee. General GASCOYNE presented* Petition from the CompaN• of Merchants trading to Africa, praying an aid of 18,0001. ferret to to a Committee of the whole liouse. Sir JOHN SINCLAIR gave notice of a motion ea to-morrow, roc a Committee to enquire respecting the state of the Highways and Puhlic Road . and the propriety of more generally adopting biesaid-wheeled carthrs. Mr.. vANsrt - MU' moved for an Account of the Quantity of PerovilsoZßark imported by, anti expottcd frotn this country with the hut --three-emrs, distlnv•ishing the quantity retained for home eensumption;• - end the quantity exported to Ireland.-- Ordered. The SECRETARY it WAR presented some Returns, pur suant to order, respecting the Recruiting Service.—Ordered to lie on the table, and to be printed. DA, MISKISSON brought in a Dill for repealing and amend ing the Act of the 46th of the King relative to the collection, &c. of the Emilie in Scotland; also a DUI for collecting the duty on salt expected from Great Britain, and altering the bonds received for that article.--Read a fast and ordered to be read a secondtime this day. The to} Millions Exchequer Wills Bill was read a third time and passed. LORD LAMS. Lord CASTLEREAGH brought down a mes sage from the Km: to the fagging purport : G. R. His Majesty having taken into consideration the splendid anievementall eminent services performed by the late General Viscount Lord Lake, et Delhi and Laswarry, in India, and on tits Continent el Europe, and kaviag bees pleased to confer upon his eldest son, now viscount Labe, as a murk of his Royal favour, a Pension of 20601.4 tear, with the reverden thereof to the two sex heirs male of his body, to enable them to dipport the tide, recommends it to his faidifel Commies to take such steps as they may think it, tor the. purpose or gidog effect to his Majesty's moat gracious intentions: On the rrititioti.of Lord-CAI3TURVi. OIII, his Majesty's Met-AtffatiliE • -..llt4l:7l4.itiliitalteli into con sideration on. F1047* liCßty . . - . . . Lord CASTLEREAGH-gave notice of .his in tention on thai dot tO: atot . re:-For lin: Mikes: to his Majesty, that he may belsserlso34 . lo.o o4 i 0 cau s e a Monument to be ereeted . at tte e erpitiee, to the Memory of the Tate LisitlViscount . Lake ,„ socttibioitt . lik e iAmiloirt Mr. CALCRAFT obseernig , that :ruuktunk had . been in circulation' for sortie &Lisk stated the dune why Sit Ricliald Stsaihnis anti ptivinted, not only . from effectually blockading the Rochefort squa dron, but froM punning hen i • Oheii•thef ' escaped from Basque Roads, and that those innienirs went as far as to Skj'; that a: priii4alcuse was his not being provided with itch store; as would have enabled him to keep his station 447 Hon. Gentleman was pro ceeding, When the fying asat hiSualoisesidintsisi.eidelaid down in put ting a question wheiino motion who before the House. —He resumed, and then, correcting himself, observed; that he only sought for that information which, as a Member, he had a right to seek. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER answered, that if the Honourable Gentleman was in possession of any such information as the rumours he mentioned purported to communicate, he had it in his own power to submit it in any way that the regulations of she House pointed out, and ground any enquiry upon it he thought proper. Mr. CALCRAFT then said again, ~ I ask the Right Hon. Gentleman, whether that which I have mentioned was not the cause of the Rochefort aqua. drop escaping ?" The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER.— "I am not aware of any such fact. But if the Ho nourable Gentleman is in possession of such informa tion, let him say so, and then he will have it in his option to institute any proceeding upon it which he may think fit." "Mr. CALCRAFT then said, im I have such infor mation, and mean to call the attention of the House • to it ; for which purpose I now give notice, that I shall move to that effect on the first vacant day, which will be next Thursday se'nnight." visa INDIA TRADE. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, pursuant to his notice of Friday last, rose for the pur pose of Moving for a Select Committee to take into consideration the anbarrasments complained of by the West India merchants in this country,. owing to the pretest state of their trade. The subject was one of very great importance, which it was ettstnely..desir able to pmt into a course of full enquiry, us order that , by placing the real situation of those snerchants in the clearest view, the House might be better enabled to judge what measures were eligible f9e,tbeir relief. l In the conversations he had held lid* many gentlemen in the West India trade, he understood they considered that the most effectual mode of relieving thorn front the pressure under which they have so long }abound, would be the adoption of sitch.,ineasnres as would ia.. crew the consumption of augigen the home maika; • and thereby enable them to pt rid of the accumu lated stock on hand. It - would be' or.elie CdMmittee to inquire how such a purpose.couldtiesthe prornotegl, and whether or not the confining of the home *di l a i n , f or a g iven time, to the use of sugar and ma. lasses only, would not be an eligible measure? a if so, whether _it would be' adviseable to extend tht expedient to the three parts of the United Kingdom; or confine it to one part only ? For this purpose, he moved that a Select Committee be appointed.--Or. " dtied, and nominated accordingly, and the Reports ' ' of the ktrtiter West India Committee referred to diem. • allie ~,if INDIA APPAISS. wtr were libeir ..SSON, in the absence The iGgbt Hon. Gentkraut e Faked, the Presiarqt of '- colleagnes in ofseelladh .coul, gave notice of a motion co • . respotisibilitav" ie. Jr the appointment of a Committee on , the fart was, ativand East India Affairs. - Orders of Cinmeil DADESI OF COUNCIL DILL. , that the nsitairore -11KR:NRY, pursuant to his notice of yester dayerote to bring forward his mods* fora Commit- had been adopted as; ast itt of necessity, from the tee of Tmde an Navigation, for the "putpose of tak- proceedings of the enemy. and the circumstaace* of, ingntto coast the subject of the late Orders in the y ' .."---- ' 'ileratin county and of Europe; and that it was necessary Cousealr ittahlishing many important the in a Bill should pass,. in order to:give efficacy to the the . extertial 'commereeof this country. Mr. Tierney reasure. He denied that Ministers bad 'hewn any reverted td bis • .t of last night, and contended indifference to the petitions on the table. or . the that the bill now ore the House for carrying into situation of the petitioners ;on the contrary, his Rsght effect those Orders, was a bill not merely for the pus Hon . Friend had distinctly, for himself and his col ' of revenue, but enacting various commercial lentleSt deolered th e situation (idle Petitioners , and regulations ; that the bill, therefore, instead of origi- expressed his sorrow that it NMI not then in their wer to do more towards their relief. The Right naung as it. had done in a Comniittee of Ways and Means, for mere purposes of supply, ought to have Hon. Gentleman was obliged to anticipate that these . *ginated in a Committee of the whole House for petitions were meditated and . ready, antecedent to the the purposes of trade and navigation ; or at least the. issuing of the Orders in Council. • He well knew that objn.ts of the bill ought to have been divided, and was the case; and in fact, and in fair.argument, the . ' that part only which related to revenue commenced Orders in Council were issued for the purpose of, he said, in the Committee of Ways and Means. If the Right 1 eramteratting the evils of privation, in w hi ch, Honourable Gentleman would propose any oiler I they were running a race with the enemy ; and that mode equally leading to the tame object, he would 1 the operation of them was intended to prevent the chearfully relinquish his motion ; but, otherwise, he t avil; not by running the race of privation, but by should feel it his duty, upon a measure which men of , tampelting the enemy to relinquish his unjust decrees. the best 'information considered as ruinous to our 1.. e assured the House, and the Right I-lon. Gentle al:nmerce and consequently to our existence, to press man also, that he was not influenced by any degree upon the house the necessity of a full and deliberate of false dignity that had been imputed to him, to ab . enquory from those who were most competent to pve stain from the adoption of the measure he had then inform2tion, the merchants of this country, instead of , proposed, but he opposed it because there had already blindly a t llopting a rainous system ; for if the 'cm- *Peen three discussions on the principle of the Bill. mercial interests of the country were destroyed, the t There were three more stages on which he, and the responsibility of Ministers would 'afford but a Iktrry : Gentlemen opposite, might still further discuss it, and compensation. His Majesty's Ministers, after haring there could be no occasion for it except in point of laid the Orders of Coun c il upon the table, never nice form ; and in that he was clear there was nothing but proposed any mode of consulting the sense of the whit might have been, with great propriety, touched House, or of those pe:sons in the- country most tom. L i on in the Co mmittee . of Ways and Means ; and he certainly recommend to his Right Hon. potent to judge as to their probable effects, or z to ; wauld. their prudence or their p tilicy ;: but they ccmtetted i Fiend (Mr. Foster) to pursue a similar course with themselves with presenting - a bill for carrying OW • respect to extending the same measure to Ireland, as b eems e • he was convinced they had been perfectly correct pn orders into la* upon no other ground that what had been done. There was one clause, he said, they had advised tiis Majesty Na issue them ; gad in which i had been found not properly to belong to the support of this bill, they had not ;f ra ught forward Cas tittle of evidence to prove its necestelt. In all nna. Bi d ;and in respect to that, it had been agreed, con. tunes formerly adopted by that House for any imp!, fonnahly to a suggestion of the Right Hon. Gentle. rant regulation of trade, it had unifonasly been dine man himself, that an .instruction should be given to by a Committee of the whole House. There nwer the Committee to divide the Bill into two Bills, if, on was any occasion which demanded a deliltemte, eau. full consideration, they should think fit so to do; and tious, and prudent proceeding, more than the preens: as there appeared to him to be no necessity - to adopt the existence of sur e commerce depended upo:a it,and the present motion, in point of form, he was sure that once undermind, the country was gone.. He there was none in point of substance, which might not could not conceive upon what principle the ilight ibe fully argued and discussed, in the future stages of Honourable Gentleman seemed determined so stcutiT I the Bill ; and for these reasons he should negative the to resist inquiry on this subject. Although the mei:), motion- , sure was adopted without any avowed adviser, yet 1 Dr. LAWRENCE said, that he was so far from the Ministers must have been advised by.:Sorneboi, y g t not paying a due regard to forms, that he thought and what he (Mr. Tierney) wished for was, t h at the t forms were frequently the very essence of the most adviser, wl!oever he was, should be brought forward,limportant matters, and sure he was they were so in and confronted before the Committee of Trade, with a very high degree in the proceedings of that House. persons of known experience, competence, and pro- His Right Honourable Friend, 'and their side cf the pity, who were ready to bear testimony to the ruin- House, wished for evidence : the Right Honourable ous t en dency of the meas u r e. Th ere were ma ny men' Gentleman opposite and his colleagues w ent solely on of the first - t haracter and profoundest commercial their own arguments, without condescending,to fa knowle3ge, both in and out of _that House, who, your the House with any information or evidence on though perhaps not very adroit in the composition of which they could form a fair opinion. All that they kpeeches, were nevertheless competent to .give that could gather from the explanation that had hitherto House the most important commercial informatim been given, was, that his Majesty wished the House and valuable opinions upon the topic. He instanced ' to pass a Bill to carry the measure adopted under the a late production by a merchant (Mr. Baring) dis- Prerogative into legal effect, by fixing duties. When "kinguished for information, experience, and ability.-- the Right Honourable Gentleman had beep asked It was from such men he wished the House to have what would be the operation of the Bill, and what' in opportunity of full inquiry. The Right Honour - the duties were likely to amount to in the way of re-I able Gentleman seemed bent upon carrying his men- venue?? his answer was, he could not guess ; so that . sure into law without any inquiry, as if he wished to the House were entirely in the dark on that part of I "Do good by steal*, and lard to find it fame."' the subject. The Right Honourable Gentleman had He assured the Right Honourable Gentleman, that also said, that one Committee Was as plod as another, his resistance to the measure arose from no peevish and yet he had owne4, that there *as a clause in the or narrow motive of party, or vexatious opposition ; Bill that ought not to be there, because it had origi but he feared the Right Honourable Gentleman was nated in a Comiiittee of Ways and Means. This running into dangers of which he was not aware, and was a measure which would deeply affect the vital in for the fatal consequences of which he would find, too terests of the country, our trade and commerce; and late, that it would not be in his power to make before every thing was put on the cast of a die, the amends to his country. He, therefore, most earnestly House ought to seek fury information. Some allusions deprecated all precipitancy in this measure, and im. had been made to the petitions upon the table with plored him to agree to suspend the progress of his respect to peace. He was one of those who would bill, until such time as the inquiry of a Committee of never recommend popular petitions on such subjects, Trade and Navigation should have enabled him and because he thought they rather were likely to retard the House to judge rightly of its true tendency and than forward so desirable an object ; but at the same eeobable effects. He begged to call to his attention time, when the House were on a measure out of the petition for peace, now on the table, presented, he which might arise another war, he thought it was understood, from thirty thousand manufacturers, their duty to be cautious; and that they should take complaining, but in respectful and decorous terms, every means to shew the people that the measure was that they wanted bread. The necessary consequence calculated to frustrate the intentions of the enemy, by of passing the bill, he feared, would be an increase of counteracting his measures ; and that could not be so those thirty thousand to three hundred thousand in a well done as by the evidence of merchants, and those very little time. He concluded by moving a Com. best acquainted with the trade and commerce of the mittee of Trade and Navigation, to sit on Thursday country. se'nnight, for the purpose of taking this subject into Mr. ADAM assured the House he would detain consideration. them but a very short time. He could not agree with The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEER the Right Honourable Gentleman in his ar g ument, QU said, that if he considered this question as an opposithin nor in the advice which he had given to th e Chancel merely vexatious to himself, he would not trouble the lor of the Exchequer of Ireland ; for they had, iii his. House at all about it; as it was, he was so confident opinion, commenced in error, and they ought to re of having proceeded on fair and just grounds, that it tract, instead of persisting. He said it had always would not be necessary for him to trouble them with been the practice of the House, when any material many observations at that time. He could not, how. alteration of the law was to take place, to resolve ever, but think, that the opposition was vexatious to themselves into Grand Committees of Trade, Grand the interests of the country much more than to him- Committees of Religion, Grand Committees of Jus. I self, for it went expressly to delay a measirteavhi c h Lice, &c. and this was done for t he hest purpose,in, the circumstances of the country, and the situation of order that every such change should be adopted Only • Europe required to be adopted as speedily as possible, an the fullest and most serious consideration. It was and which had always received a decision after the a mistake, he said, that the standing order of 1703 most ample discussion on the subject. The Right was repealed by .the order of 1773, for it really was 'Hon. Gentleman, in the whole of his arguments this not ; and even by the last order, it was made neces slight, hid violently complained of want of inforrna- 1 sary, that any Bill relating to trade should always Lion ; whila be, for his part, conceived that every de- originate in a Committee of the whole House, which gree of information had been given that could at ail gave it one more stage, and that a very important be considered necessary. , The Oilers of Council had one : for in that Committee they had the power of been laikbefore the House for their information. going into every matter relating to it, as in 'respect They had been fUlly discussed atto the necessity, the to extiediency, as to policy, or necessity, which dis policy, and the efficacy of them, and the House had I tinished a Committee on Trade from a Committee' - decided.lo their favour ; and the next thing to be done I on -Face. He had looked for precedents, as well was, to give them a practical effect, by adopting aI as the short time he could spare would al l ow, and mode of carrying them into execution ; 'and this thought he had found one that was in poiro s . In 1731, was intended to be done by'the Bill then pending in 1 when there existed certain duties on yarn from Ire he House, and which gave rise to the present mo. I land, which were appropiated to different uses, it aioa: ' It was open to every Member of the House, ! was thought wise to repeal those duties, and place and of course to the Right Hon. Gentleman who had ; them solely on the aggregate fund, which was merely 'nit sat down, to enter fully on the subject in the a change of one fund for another. It was them agreed Camtnittee of aid Means, and to examine evi. to panto a Committee of the whole House, in the clewe on: any or all the points that might bear on the nature if a Committee of Trade, befer even that trade, commerce, and navigation of the country, and measure was adopted. He put a case that the pre- . • ... • r otative so,oo be used to make any aiterAti oa ka.. course of *for,. trsti:then that House was appli t al I foe the putpoee of ,legalizing such act of p remise ; mid t h e Howe endure that such a measure sho u ld adopted, without originating in a Commit of Justice ? Would they endure V:l:tuch an on ,'" t chess le should commence in a Coausi ttee' -. C; 1 2 1 and - Weans I Ike will sure shelf ero za eat " and as the House had, by neglectingtopeigia me 4: Bill alluded to, suffered it to originate in nCo tuto i t. t ee of Ways 'and Means, instead of a Coniai tteo of the whole House in the way of a Conimittee af'r rat o he thought they ought to be then checked, tuna t hi , ' L the best way _would. be to retrace their steps. Mr. ROSE thought the Honourable Gentl eraa a had made a mistake between the Graud Committ ee a riva s t i nod the SO:adiv Order of 1773, a s b ot h were ,a were contemtion of matteroutun e • uo marations.aadalterations Were intended to. be mad in trade, ana,.iti that case it was requisite that the big shoulduriemate in a Committee of the wh o l e Rouse r ,bat this was not so M the present case. Whateve rt h i , lassovation.was it originated in the prerogative, w had been used from the necessity of the ivau tmnca .of the Continent of Europe and of this country—ond ii was therefore necessary the House should, by t h e present Bill, carry the orders of Council into cal effect, by fixing duties which were matters of finance, and therefore properly . .came under the cognizance of the Committee of Ways and - Mesas._ He denied that the trade of the country was all ett d by the Bill. - • • •' • . The question being loudly and clamorously mod NY for—Mr. PeNSON ,said' he was story to I les , Gentlemen so much wis'a - for the quest:on, as th ey would certainty be disaypointed. The Right Honour. able Gentleman Who spoke last had said there was no alteration of trade by the Bill, but that the Rine b a d IdoOe it by his prerogative , arising out of his bap. I l rent rights. True.but his Majesty had referred di act of the exercise of his prerogative to the considera tion of the House Of Commetot, and requested Mae to adopt the legal wens of carrying it into practical , effect. In ER cases' of exercise of the prerogative, the douse of Coinmons had a right to enquire and coo skier whether his Majesty had been well-advised is that act. This no one could deny. What had been • done on former • eccasions ? He had a precedent, which he thought was very *.ialogous to the present case. There was no part of the king's prerogative which was more universally allowed; than that of his right to enter into treaties with foreign powers. Ac cordingly his Majesty, in 1787, entered into atom. mercial treaty with France ; and how did Feria. matt then proceed-? His Majesty in his spettliin ,formed the Horse : of-Commons, that he had conduct. ed a treaty_of navigation and commerce with them* Christian 'King, and' recommended it to them tomes it into consideration. How did the House act? Dif they proceed to bring in a bakte carry it into dm by originating it in a Committee of Ways and Mean. No—they made an order to consider that part of the speech -which related to c immerce, in a Committee of the whole Housz, in o:der to examine whether hit Majesty had been well advised in the exercise of that They deter nined, in a Committee of the whole House, that he had exercised that prow tive properly, and afterwards addressed him to ikt effect=--and then they went into a Committee of Ways and Means, to consider how to carry the duties into effect. His Right Honourable Friend said, Mathis matter was a measure of great novelty, and ofet treme importance, and ought therefore to be coca dered with the greatest attention. He was of the same opinion ; and as he thought the bill should have ori ginated in a Committee of the whole House, he would support the present motion. Mr. TIERNEY allowed there had been opportn nity for a discussion of the question, but none for a decision of it, because. it had not been takeu.npaa proper Committee. The Chancellor of the Lecke quer had once said, there had been opportunity a decision ; but he had since very dexterously &n ped that word, and a ft erwards only used that of fis cussion. The Committee of Ways and Means sea only proper in matters of Finance , except them wa a particular instils. ties ; and that not having take place in the present bill, the House had proceeded! error ; and in a case of such magnitude and imps tance to the country, could not do better than to r trace its steps, and receive information on the subjes The Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Rose) k said, there was nothing in this Bill contrary is t usual and ordinary course of trade ; this he dealt In case a neutral ship was warned into a port lid kingdom, that had cotton and Jesuit's bark on boo she must leave those articles behind her—this wait in the first Bill, but it was is the new edition of it and. if this was not an alteration in' the course of te he could not tell what was. It was an infringan of the Navigation Act, and ought to have origin in a Committee of the whole House, and not it Committee of Ways and Means ; because when a o mittce of Ways and Means was wanted, it was ale expressed as such a Committee. He instanced 11 of the Lord Advocate of Scotland, a few Sess past, having brought its a Bill for altering the col tion of teindr (tythes) in Scotland, when the Spe had expressly reminded hit s , that being an alien of the law of tythes, which belonged to the Chu the Bill must originate in a Committee of the w House. He appealed to the Speaker if that sra the case. He thought, therefore, the House g do well to pause there, and consider this subject I maturely. If, however, the House decided ag him, he would have the satisfaction to reflect, he had done his duty, in putting them in the se doing right by calling for information, and with he must rest contented. The Right Hones Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) said, that he. would advise his Right Home Friend to originate his Bill for Ireland in tlet way ; that was, a Committee of Ways and N If he did, he should have an opportunity of in his sincerity ; for he had asserted that he Tierney) might have called for and examine evi on the Committee of Ways and Means. lithe cellor of the Exchequer for Ireland, should the tread in the same steps in introducing his B would try the sincerity of the Right Hon. C man, by calling for the examination of witness would be able to give more information to the 'Flllan they had yet received. ' The SPEAKER said, that as he had been upon, he would certainly state to the Hou se w thought on the subject. The rules of the How cl . .. . _ , . .s acifinattertispecting-the 1 .. ; ; • i s of, - S O Ills slay -mischiefs or evil* so ' the 0411 . c . . neat on it. The Right I Mon if*, bid staiji#4, that he and his etdleagi in, the state eyr Adopted the measure 9n their own res appealed to the House Whether the. . L. whether he had not suhmitted. the C Lotice of Tester. to the House, and disactly state& . __ A —.a a. ay. a.. ; C P .