Star. — London, England, 1830-02-24 00:00:00

cry and the consequence of that was, the depreciation of the sugar (It the West India planters. Sow, with a duty of 275. per cwt. win - the price re ceivril by the planter fell from 63s to 235. per cwt. Mt his btst sugar. was it possible for him to go on ? He would not . air tr that rart of the subject that respected the price and duty I. t'pon an average. the West India planter, after 27r'. duty, d .site: the various other deductions to which his sugar was sub j.,- did nuj, receive above 12a. per cwt. and even at that price he F.an not an extensive market. He hoped the house would consider ..filar pays of the subject. If we were determined to hold the trade st.gar in competition with other nations, we could not suffer taxa. tic r ti the amount it at present exists. ?)r. HART DAVIS was understood to say that there was r.s..t depreciation in colonial property. Some internal regulations et t.ned still necessary—such as a better mode of registering • '.e.rs The planter, under the present regulations, found great difficulty in removing his slaves from one plantation to another. Ile would Trcoasmend to Government to form some new plan of , rvtiry. Mr BRIGHT said that the West India planters, and the whole :wily connected with them, were in a state of unparalleled distress. They oaght now to be viewed in a favourable light, when they came to parliament to ask for a removal of the burden of taxation which pressed them down. If a boon of this kind could be extended to any class of men without injury to the government, or to the revenue, lie really believed that no measure could effect so much good as the removal of these burdens front the colonial proprietors. If the colo nies were expected to go on in the work of internal improvement -ind reformation, they ought to be met in a spirit of conciliation. He called on the house to look with a favourable eye upon the present application. (Hear, hear.) In Scotland and Ireland the tinny upon West India pr oduce was such, that the great body of the people were prevented from consuming any of it. He hoped shatfthe petition would be received by the house in the spirit of conciliation. On the question that the petition be brought up, being put, Mr. BERNAL said, he had not risen before, because he had hoped that what had fallen from other hon. members would have elicited something 'tom the Chancellor of the Exchequer. After the fair and manly way in which the noble lord had brought for ward the subject, he did think that the Chancellor of the Ex chequer ought to state whether the West India body were or were not entitled to receive relief. Since 171)2 the price of sugar had ne ver been so low as it was at present. During the war, the West Indian proprietor did not complain, as he had no tight to complain, that he was taxed towards defraying the expenses of the war, but the additional duties unposed during the war was put on by a kind of compact, that they were only to continue while the war lasted, And that they would be removed when the war should be brought to a conclusion. In 1815 peace came, but, from that time to the present, the government had not said a word about reducing the du ties on sugar--(Hear, hear.) Then, as to rum, did not Lord Goderich,. when Mr. Robinson, say th at if the additional duty of Is. Gd. on rum was found to be a prohibitory or oppressive duty, the West India body would have a fair claim upon parliament for the remission of tke duty ? The duty on home spirits was 7s. the duty on West India spirits was Bs. Gd. the duty on Irish and Scotch spirits was 2s. 10d. In addition to these circum stances, the West India body had to compete with sugars brought from places in which the slave trade existed in full vigour. lie thought it ,very hard that while this country was paying from 20.000/. to 25,000/. a year, for mixed commissions—that while oar vessels were cruising on the coast of Africa to capture slave-trading vessels, and that when we had spent 2,000,0001. in gifts and loans to Spain, Portugal, and other places, in order to put a stop to this traffic, the slave trade should nevertheless be still carried on to so great an extent, that the West Indian produce should be driven out of the continental markets. He contended that this was a case worthy the attention of the government and of the house, and he did hope that he should not call in vein upon the Chancellor of the Exchequer to say if the ministers had any remedy in contemplation. Upon one other point he begged the attention of the government. He believed that there was a treaty on foot, and not yet perfected, with a foreign power, from whose markets our colonists had hitherto been excluded ; and it appeared to hint that the treaty in question furnished a fair opening for removing this restriction, and doing something for our colonies. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, he begged to assure the house, that if be had forborne offering any observations on this subject, his forbearance had not arisen from any want of re spect towards the hon. members who had addressed the house, nor from any want of sympathy with the distress under which the West India body laboured. He was sure, however,that the house would ace, that as a sense of duty had withheld him from giving any information respecting the views of the government on the subject of reduction of taxation, so also the same sense of duty must restrain him from um explosion of any opinion on a subject like this, on the occasion of we presentation of a petition. indeed, he thought that when pets. tons relative to duties which weighed upon particular classes were presented to the house, there could not be a course more inconve nient than to make the presentation of such petitions the opportunity of promulgating the views of government, and of going into the consideration of all those various circumstances upon which at last the conduct of government must be founded. On the present occa siou, in particular, such a course would be highly inconvenient, be cause the sugar duties were always brought forward annually ; and that, therefore, would be the proper time for explaining the views of government. For these reasons he had forborne gi vi ng the house and his hon. friend the satisfaction which his hon. friend required. Thus much, however, he would say, namely—that he was not one of those who were insensible to the value of our colonies, or the im portance of them to the mother country. When the colonists were distressed he sincerely sympathised with them, and should always be anxious to relieve them, as far as was consistent with the general interests of the country. Mr. W. SMITH believed that he could diaprove "many of the statements which had been made, but that he did not wish any de cision to be taken on the subject without inquiry ; and as the ques tion then before the house was merely that the petition should be brought up, he should abstain from any observations at present. Mr. C. GRANT did not rise to prolong this discusion, but he wished to remind the house, that it had been his lot in the last two sesions of parliament to propose that the duties :on sugar should be reduced. His opinion of the justice of such motions had been con firmed by the arguments of hon. members respecting other duties on the produce of labour, by experience on this particular subject, and by the melancholy state of the West India interest. He had waited to learn what were the views of government on this subject, and on the reduction of taxation generally, before he renewed his motion this session; and he was willing now to hear the statement of the chancellor of the exchequer upon the reduction of taxation gene rally, before he called the attention of the house to his views re specting the reduction of the sugar duties. He hoped, however, that i his right hon. friend would not take it ill if he did not wait until the annual duties were brought forward, because they generally came under the notice of the house at so late a period of the session that there would be no time for the consideration which the subject de served.—(Hear.) Mr. HUME was sure that the subject could not be left in better hands than than those of the bow gentleman who had just sat down. —(Hear, hear.) His hon. friend - below him (Mr. W. Smith) had said that he could disprove the statements which had been made on this subject. What were those statements ? That the duties bad risen and prices had fallen. Could his hon. friend disprove that? He eras sorry to hear this taken up as a colonial subject, for it was not a colonial, but a national subject.—(Hear, hear.) He had urged that the shutting out of East India sugar was an injury to the country and no benefit to the West India body; and so it was. Let both sugars come in, and let the duties be reduced to an ad valorem rate; and with this system be would have both trades as free as possible, and let the colonists have the power of sending their produce to any port they pleased. Our absurd regulations in this respect tended to impoverish, instead of enriching, our colonists. Mr. HUSKISSON, said, he would not now touch upon tbe se veral important topics connected with this question,because a mere it opportunity would occur for going into it, and because another ha pow tam subject was then:about to be brought before the house. Asa member for a town deeply interested in the condition of our West India colonies, be must state that the question was one which ought to attract the serious attention of government, for the claims of those colonies on its consideration were very strong. Among the many classes in the community which felt the pressure of the general dis tress there were none who suffered more severely than those who were embarked in the colonial trade. The Marquis of CIIANDOS said that he had no intention of taking ministers unawares on this question. So fu twin it, he would say that the subject was before them for the last four months. The petition was then brought up and read. On the question that it do lie on the table, ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE IN TIIIE COLONIES. that the want of representatives for thaw towns le so great, that Parliament ought to admit them at ones, without waiting for the vacancy ; and till we do admit them in this manner there is little hope that they will have representatives in this house. It is now more than ten years ago that I proposed, when any borough was disfranchised on account of corruption, its place should be filled up in this house by representatives from some of the larger towns. That proposition was met by the ministers of the sown in the fairest manner, but notwithstanding ten years have since elapsed without a single step being taken for the accomplishment of that object ; and on any future occasion of this kind let the house consider whet arc the difficulties that stand in the way. The first difficulty is In giving proof of the corruption sufficient to satisfy the members of the Louse ; and when that has been done, we are met in this house with the conundrum of the right honourable gentleman, that when a par ticular county, has not more than eight representatives, we must not transfer the franchise from that county to any other place. But suppose we have been fortunate enough to get over the difficulties in this house, and that we are able to carry up our Bill to the other, we shall find that in that House there are suspi. clone and fears of any measure cf this kind ; and the Bill being one with a double object, the one to punish former delinquency, and the other to till up a vacancy by sending Members from large towns,—those who object to the latter can lay their fingers on the first, say they are not satisfied with the proof of corruption, and throw out the bill without the appearance of opposing it on the other ground. This has already been the case; and thus that plan which I once hoped would amend the state of this House, has proved to be one which does but perpetuate the evil. Such, then, are the difficulties, almost insuperable, placed in the way of this or any other specks of reform. I look in vain for any other mode; and 1 therefore lay before the house humbly, but strenuously, the question, whether the claims of the large towns are not so recent, and do not press so urgently upon us as to call on us to go up to the House of Lords, not with a mixed bill of penalty and investiture, but with one in which we shall make our stand on the brood principles of general representation which, if al. lowed, our object will be gained ; if denied, it will appear on what ground the dispute between the two houses rally rested —(hear, hear.) I am afraid that in going into proof of the changes which the different great towns have undergone, I shall be obliged to trouble the house at some length, but the importance of the subject must be my excuse. I will begin with calling the attention of the house to the great increase in the population of these towns since the commencement of the last century. The population of Manchester, in 1708, was 8,000; in 1723, it was 27,000 : in 1791, it was 70 , 000 ; and in 1821, it was 133,000. That part of the environs of Manchester, which 1 in chided as part of the borough In my bill for transferring the fran chise from Penryn to that town, if added to the other portion, will make up a population of 186,000 souls. The increase in Leeds and Birmingham has gone on in a similar manner. The population of Leeds, in 1774, was 17,000; in 1801, it was 53,000; and in 1821, it had risen to 83,000. The population of Birmingham, at the time of the Restoration, was 5,000; in 1700, it was 15,000 ; in 1781, it amounted to 50,000; in 1791, it had reached 73,000 ; and in 1821, it was as high as 106,000. I ask, Sir, whether this great in. crease in the population does not lead the house to acknowledge that some change ought to take place with respect to the manner in which the interests of these towns are represented here? But I will go on yet a little further with respect to Manchester. .Having en. quired into the rental of Manchester, I have found that the county rate is raised upon a rental of 750,0001. I asked several ganktr.en whose opportunities of information are extremely good, whether the amount of property in and about Manchester might be safely esti. mated at thirty millions, and I was told that that estimate would be below the real amount. Of the extent of trade and popula tion in this town of Manchester, some idea may be formed from the annual amount of the poors' rates—that amount being list Ism than fifty.four thousand pounds. The annual freight on the canal is not less than 300,000/. These two facts of themselves afford the strongest proof, the most conclusive evidence of the wealth and resources of Manchester. (Herr, hear.) Then we come to the rail.road between that town and Liverpool; there is being es. pended upon that rail-road annually :a sum of 55,0001. and it is estimated that the whole amount required for completing that work will be about 800.0001. To make that a good and no one has any doubts of its being so—the trade bbeetwess doe two towns must be of an amount such as ought to entitle both to dap highest consideration in the legislature. But the rate at which it has been deemed advantageous to convey goods along this road, is in it. self a matter of just surprise and congratulation. Sir, geode are 1e be conveyed along the road with three times the expedition used Is the conveyance of letters by the mail —( Hear, hear.) Of the science and skill with which it has been executed, it is needless for me 141 trouble the house. One remarkable end interesting point abate it is that within a tulle and a half of Liverpool it proceeds thew* a subterraneous passage ; and that in other parts of it various physical difficulties have been overcome. Manchester, too, has long been famous for its philosophical Institutions; a most important discovery was made by Dr. Bostock (we believe) in bleaching. He was a member of that institution, and through the agency of that body was the discovery made kn own, end carried into practical operation. Thus do we see how advantageously the course of philosophical discovery is made available to the purposes and conveniences of ordinary life, when the general en lightenment which belongs to large manufacturing commu nities is acted on by the concentrated force of minds devoted exclusively to science. (Hear, hear.) Mr. Dalton, also an in habitant of Manchester, is a name well known to science, and which, with that I have already mentioned, and others—many others, which It would take too much time to go through— I say, these names add to the already strong claims of Manchester to be represented in this house. But Manchester is the centre of a great extent of country, populated by a great commercial and manu facturing community, engaged in the most important and flourishing of the manufactures of`this „country, and is, therefore, the district which most wants. slur is best entitled, to send representatives into this house. I have said that the goods of Manchester are the most important of our manufactures; the goods of Manchester are seen in every part of the globe, to which a ship or any other mode of con veyance can penetrate. Yes—its goods are seen everywhere; but in this house members to represent It have never appeared. (Hear, bear.) The time has at length come when I hope that reproach of legislature shall be removed. (Hear, hear.) After having so long occupied the house with details respecting Manchester, as I conceive entitle it to be represented in Parliament, and as the grounds on which I desire to apply for the same privilege on behalf of Bir. mingham and Leeds are grounds pretty nearly similar, though ap plying to a different species of manufacture, I shall not trouble the house by entering into any such particulars relative to those towns as 1 have thought it necessary to do in the case of Blanchesta. They each carry on a great and important manufacture; they are the centres and the capitals of those manufactures respectively ; they are the seats of great property and of great enlightenment. I know I shall be told that those places. though not specialty represented, are still sufficiently and practically represented in this house by the county members. Ido beg of the house to con alder a little before it allows such an argument to have any weight With it. It is pretty well known that the county members I are generally persons of large landed property, and are re. turned by the landed interest ; therefore they at least can I never be said to hold their seats as the representatives of any manu facturing interest, and are independent of any such. Besides they I are not wry dependent even upon chose who do return than. When once a podemen bosom a county member, he generally remains so fee many parliaments ; and even though he be not able to attend his dudes hem he dose not in consequence lose his sent, a, we have anletansple in the awe of the member for Lancashire. But suppose the sanely member had the fullest inclination to do all in his power he the mentdacturiag intimate of the place he represented, bow oeshl ha, ad he alone, do all that might be required for his landed emedesents, and at the same time attend to the numerous and tonqdot intonate of a r ba manufacturing and conimercial ossenenalty P In practice tis seen that the county members are never able to attend to both ; and what is the consequence that when any great question is likely to come before the legislature matsvially affecting their Interests, or when they desire to bring for ward anything of themselves, instead of mad e ? known though their ta representives in this house—the natural, 1 timate, and emulate. dotal mode of communicating with the legit. ture—a body of dole gates are appointed, who come up to town and have interviews with his majesty's ministers • and conferences are held upon the crook and cotton, and iron trades, and efforts are made to make those mi. Waters comprehend the interests of those pantos, and bring forward those measures in parliament which, the interests or sights of the applicants required. How infinitely better then that tier of those districts should be in ziarly and eonstitutionally rerteiwled in this house; that Bina , Leeds, and Slaacheater, should return members capable of ling their interests, and explaining their views. A due reparaidedos of those districts would also be attended with this luntedelal alba, that it would prevent the alive& den et t h e public mind,' these districts from the House of Com: i monmmit might naturally be expected to excite a feeling a Mn. Yaw and auks than in dame of difficulty and dhow look a di alba sad easaarais 4alinerations of perliannen. saber than • ear peeeendloya of ehele ann. Erin is the soda IWO qmadane Wm* _sense ea tit Sale Pi • q t imp ate paiieely aeon of the East .1•1111 a Compare iii:sarapb. a gennion dot be ~Alp sh whey . About eft hour to the lotellolldas the ridgcllllMMlnte of meld ewe. ampules coolish/a Ninth end widener 5ir.,.... to thaw &slim. of trAtiolt abrocuseb po , greontatAvis aft the purer organs? How odd ginedifort_nr tho Rich lodha and tr4th Cities Z ak % propeply aonideeed wlthept does aids es Themw tie quest*. Who ea to be baud cc suoit a erotica as Alle . Moe. sentatives of Leeds, of PmlPOter.i! kl , Ind Nastehaur f Wke se - - 'in decing whether ' before the home what has appeared to my mind the chief grounds upon which I think this change in our repeesentation should be made, I come now to some of the chief objections which may possibly be urged against the change, with the proposal of which I intend to conclude. I possibly may be told, in the first place, that previous to the union with Scotland and Ireland, the number of English representatives was fixed ; and that now, to iii. crease that number, by introducing representatives for the three towns in question, would be an infraction of the compacts formed between those countries and this. I conceive that in all questions in compact, the first thing we have to do is to inquire whether the alter ation we propose to effect will do any real injury. Now I cannot con ceive what injury Ireland or Scotland could sustain from die intro. duction into this house of six representatives for the three towns I have mentioned. There can be no practical evil ; and, in the end, there must be great advantage to them from such a chance; for it in Scotland or in Ireland it could hereafter be shown that any great town in either country required representation, the precedent would be in their favour. But it was absurd to talk of too scru pulous an observance of the compact with those countries ; te. compacts had been broken more than once, and a further L. fraction of their letter for the general good, and for the contin. gent advantage of the weaker countries, ought not to form are insuperable impediment in the way of a legislature whici had broken through them so freely in some cases that I shall name. There, for example, are the heritable jurisdictions— they were abolished since the Scotch Union, and Catholic Members may now sit for Scotland, though for long after the union none but Protestants were eligible. The same occurred with respect to Ireland, and there the forty-shilling freeholder, were abolished; and in doing this Parliament was not pre vented by any considerations about compacts. In that. parliament was governed by the soundest considerations of expediency. I th, not know whether I am at liberty to allude to what was said in anu thee place on the discussion of the Catholic relief bill ; but I hop, I may be allowed to call the attention of the house to a speech math by Earl Orey on that occasion, in which he completely overturned the whole of this argument, so far as Scotland was concerned. I never remember any thing more conclusive and satisfactory than a a. 4 his reasoning ; nor do I ever remember to have heard a more able. luminous and powerful a speech, than that of which the reasoning I allude to formed a part. I think it is impossible to bear the oh lesivations of the noble earl in mind, and doubt for a moment that we are at perfect liberty to commit any infraction of the letter of these compacts which may be for the benefit of the whole com munity, as it never could be the intention of those parties, to whom the compacts were framed, to enter into any obligations inconsistent with the true interests of the population of tin united kingdom at large. I shall now come to another objection— it will be said that the admission of six new members has tht effect of sanctioning a principle which would let in 30 or 40 new _members as readily as six, and that other great towns are as well en titled to be represented as Birmingham, or Leeds, or Manchester—. that the line had been already drawn, and that if once passed, We could foretel the remote consequences—that the very pe. tition presented this night from Sheffield afforded the fullest evidence that the communities desiring representation, and xe well entitled to it as those I have mentioned, will not be limited to those three. Let this be examined—it deserves to be locked into, he it has something of a logical appearance, though no real founda don in truth ; for be it remembered, that the time towns for which I claim representation are the capit als of three great branches of our manufacture, and Sheffield, though the seat, is not the capital ot any great branch. Thus, the house will see that though that ob. jection sounds plausibly, it has no real foundation in truth; for the principle which admits Manchester, Birmingham, and Leeds, is not capable of extension to any other place. Not that I mean to my that either now or at some future ume representation may act be further extended ; but what I contend for is, that my par. Ocular motion does not in its principle let in any but the three towns to which it particularly refers, and does,not let in any others beyond that number. But looking to its former acts, Idu not per. ceive that parliament has been governed by such considerations ot principles as those of which 1 have just been speaking. It was not re. strained from disfranchising the Irish 40s. freeholders, from any consideration that future parliaintets would find in that proceeding a precedent for hereafter raising the qualification to 501. or 1001. Ex cessively strict adherence to principle must produce a practice ot legislating for the maintenance of grievances, not for their abolition. Having thus briefly answered what I consider the chief objections to my motion, I have little more to add, except, perhaps, to advert to the supposed danger of this innovation—it will probably be denounced as an extremely dangerous innovation. I think the dan ger lies em *sodas side. 1 think the true spirit of the constitution L in chmipe obiedy from those who, in their absurd apprehension of boovatim, woad - assist all wholesome and salutary chin who. es wedded to steam imitation. overlook their unsnitabkaeas to swim times and tie Amid emulition of society. It is in prejudices mob as dims that I *IA the tell danger will be found. (Hear. Mir.) lam not one of these who look upon the constitution as a Grecian temple, perfect In all its proportions—a model of symmetry and grace, which viditions Would deform, and Muti nied= destroy. (Hear, hear.) I rather regard it as a Gothic Maneitere, from which many excrescences may be advantageously assessed, and many additions made which would improve pospertions and add to the security of its inhabitants. (Hear. Mar, hear.) But there ha also danger if we do not in a wise and liberal spirit meet the augmenting dispositions to regard us with distrust which prevails out of doors. One of tke true modes of Itessdng the evil will be to collect, within the walls of this house, as luny as possible of the real representatives of the people.— Ohm, hear, hear.) It is then, and not until then, that we can be regarded as the true representation and image of a great and powerful and free country. The more I consider this question, the more am I persuaded that the real danger is not in the change which I propose, and which some would call innovation. When I look abroad to other countries—when I see in a neighbouring senctly the collision going on between the Itoyal Authority es the sae head, and popular resistance on the other ; and when INS We that temper, those heats and animosities which confidence la a true representative government can alone allay, I cannot bring myself to believe that the danger is to be found in any quarter other than that which I have indicated. It is upon grounds such a these that I intend to submit to the house a propoeiton for infranchising 'Manchester, Leeds, and Birmingham.—and this I do, being, as 1 trait I ever shall be, an enemy to disorder, though a f riend to liberty —opposed to slavery, though an advocate for peace...deeply see. sable of the delicate machinery of a representative government, I am anxious to assist in procuring for this country a legislature and administration worthy of its respect, and deserving its affection. I beg to move for leave to bring in a bill to enable the towns ot Man. chester, Leeds, and Birmingham, to return representatives to serve in parliament. Mr. WILBRAHAIII would support the noble lord in his pra!+e. worthy efforts to obtain a better system of representation fur to commercial districts of the kingdom. He had witnessed with mix , : satisfaction on a former occassion the noble lord's exertions Burin{ the progress of the Catholic relief bill, and he trusted that his pre- sent exertions would be crowned with equal success. He thought that there was great necessity for some change in our representative system, and in the representation of counties more particularly. He thought the duration of polls might be shortened: with great propriety. The Landed Interest, according to the present system, was to a certain extent sepessented, but our manufacturing interests were scarcely represented at all. Whole districts, the populations of which ware int noise, and which contained the moat intelligent portion of the community, had no representatives in this house. The object of the present bill being to obtain • better s y s tem of representation for those districts he would support it in all its stages. Lord SANDON next addressed the house, but, standing under the gallery, and directing his voice towards the.speaker's chair, the noble lord was utterly inaudible in the reporter's gallery. At the conclusion he moved the following amendment • ricst-That it is expedient that all boroughs that shall have been proved guilty of gross and notorious corruption shall cease to exercise the right of returning members to this house. • Second —Thafthe right of returning members taken from boa toughs in which bribery and corruption shalt have been proved to prevail be given to some of the unrepresented manufacturing towns or large counties." Lord MORTZTII seconded the amendment. The original motion and the amendment having been read by me speaker, on the question being put, Hr. HORACE T‘VISS was opposed to the amendment of the noble lord who had just sat down, no less than to the motion of the noble lord (bord John Russell) opposite ; and for the sante reason. that both pledged the bourse to a general principle of reform, with out a previous case of necessity having been esusblished. Ile could not agree with the noble lord (Lord John Russell) that either the articles of union with Scotland or Ireland affonled any pretext for interfering with our present system of legislation. With respect to Ireland, the noble lord was lnernw, or rather, his inferences, as ap. plied to England, were not borne out by fsct.Tiil a recent period the Catholics, as the noble lord well knew, were not in possession of the elective franchise, and till a period still mote recent, though they had been put into possession of the right of election, they were legally ineligible to b: elected. The case was different as to Eng. la.;d. He was rather surprised when he heard the noble lord corns' forward with a great measure of reform like that which he had just submirlid to the house, that he had not previously made manifest. to the satisfaction of the bowie, seine particular grievance i t the existing eenstitutional system of representation which would justify a measure at -reform. it was true that it was frequently asserted by booottrahle members , that that binge did not represent the peopled Englan d . _ Li, by duly tepreeendag the seam of the People of go lea d, it was meant that that house should be the mere index of the ' fluctuating opinions that people— opinions so necessarily temporary, as being at else time ceasareent upon partial distress, et &MA, time oceationed by erroneous views ot their own interest—he, for oar. would admit that the assertion was well founded ; he would go farther, and contend that it was never majesty's government to introduce a measure for the improvement of the administration of justice in the colonies, and the admis sion of slave•evidence would form a part of it. Me was aware of the great importance of the subjeet, and the many interests con nected with it, and would do every thing in his power to expedite it. The chief obstacle which stood in the way, was the great expense which would =rite from the changes rendered necessary by the proposed arrangements. With the view of saving expense as much as possible, he forbore to fill up 'vacancies that had occurred, one of Chief Justice of St. Vincent's, and the other of Chief Justice of Tobago, as he was unwiiling to let in any claims for compensation that might be made by the persons holding those situations. Mr. KEITH Di /JAMAS expressed a hope that no longer de lay might occur in making the intended judicial arrangement for our colonies, for that delay would be found inconvenient in many respects. In one of the colonies the chief justiceship was vacant for two years, and the duties discharged in the interim by a resident planter. This he thought ought not to be permitted, for it would tend to diminish the confidence of the people in the administration of the law. He hoped he should hear from the right hon. gentle man that it was intended to remove any cause of complaint on this ground as speedily as possible. Whatever the expense might he hereafter, he thought it would be much more inconvenient to keep the office vaunt. Sir G. MURRAY—The hon. member was mistaken in suppo sing that the situation was vacant for two years. A gentleman was appointed to fill it, and he was on the point of going out,when ano ther appointment was given to him. As to inconvenience, he must suppose there was none, as no complaint or representation of any kind had reached him on the subject. If it should be found neces sary to fill it up, he would do so temporarily. Lord NUGENT regretted that any delay should occur in bring. ing into operation a measure so necessary as a reformation in the ju. dicial administration of our colonies, and also to hear that so im. porcant an office as that of chief justice was filled by a planter. Ile was aware that the subject of the improvement of the judicial sys tem in the colonies was Doe which had long been in contemplation, but was difficult to be grappled with. However ' it was one of great Importance, and must be disposed of. What he would wish to know from the right hon. gentleman was, whether the delay wail occasioned by waiting for any further reports from the commissims. era of Inquiry into the colonial courts, or whether the labours of that bad been brought to a close P Sir G. MURRAY replied that the commission had closed its labours, and that the only thing which occasioned delay was a con. sideration of the expense. Lord NUGENT observed, that, so far as he was concerned, he was disposed to offer no objection to the expense. He would have it on the most liberal scale provided it could attain so desirable an object as that which the right hon. gendeman had In contemplation. The petition was then ordered to lle on the table, and be printed. BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE. Mr. HUME saiciit would be convenient t o many honourable members to know from the right hon. gentleman opposite, whether he intended to propose any vote in the committee of supply which stood for to-morrow ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied, that u there seemed to be a general understanding on both sides of the house that Wednesday was not to be a day of any heavy business, he would not propose any motion in the committee of supply on that day. PARLIAMENTARY REFORM. >i • .at, = ll:Mt • - 7 • 4- . . , Mr. BR( tUGHAM said he would take that opportunity of ask log a question of the right honourkble gentleman, the Secretary of the Colonies. The right hon. gentleman would recollect, that in the course of the last session he (Mi. Brougham) gave notice of a me. Lion for leave to bring in a bill for the purpose of rendering slave evidence admissible in the colonies ; but he was induatl to withdraw that notice in consequence of a declaration made by the right hon. gent. that it was the intention of government to introduce a gene ral measure for the improvement of the judicial administration in all oar colonies, and that. amongst odic reforms, it would embrace the admission of slave evidence. Now the question he wished to ask was, whether it was the intention of the right hon. gentleman, in the parr session, to redeem the pledge then given, and if so, bow soon tha house alight eapm to hear what were the measures which it was intended to introduce ? Sic 0. MMULAY al* he recollected very well the circum assess to which the hon. and lased gentleman alluded, and the answer he gave on the ocarina, which was as the honourable and leased gentlemen had; stated. k was sal the intention of his Lord JOHN RUSSELL a petition from Sheffield, praying that the elective french might be conferred on the inha. bitants of that town. Mr. MARSHALL strongly supported the prayer of the petition, and declared Sheffield well worthy of being allowed to return a re presentative to that house. Mr. STUART WORTLEY, in obedience to the personal re. quest of many most respectable persons, also expressed his opinion in favour of the prayer of the petition. He would not then detain the house on the question of Sheffield alone, as the whole discussion was about to commence on the motion of the noble lord opposite, but merely would say, that Sheffield bad as good a claim to send representatives to parliament as either of the three towns which was the subject of the noble lord's motion. It was a most ancient town, and it was, besides, the chief seat of a manufacture almost peculiar to this country—he meant the trade of cutlery. The petition was brought up, read, and ordered to be printed. Lord JOHN RUSSELL moved that the three orders of the day of March 19, 1821, June 22. 1827, and 31st March, 1828, relative to bills to transfer the elective franchise from boroughs convicted of corruption, to Leeds, to Birmingham, and Manchester, should be en. tered as read. This was done, and his lordship then addressed the house as follows :—Although I feel not, Sir, the smallest doubt both as to the justice and as to the expediency of the propositions which I am this night about to submit to the house, yet I do feel • consider able degree of apprehension that these propositions may not meet with that success which I should wish to see conferred upon them by a majority of this house. lam aware that there are many persons who are actuated by perfectly conscientious motives but who have such a dread of reform, to which the old and accustomed epi thets of " wild and visionary," have often been attached, that they view with suspicion any motion of which reform is the object. To them I will only say, that if there was a proposition for reform that was not wild and visionary, but that was practicable in its ob. jest, practicable in the grounds on which it went, and practicable in its results, It is that which I act about this night to propose to the house. 1 likewise fear that some objections may be made to this motion in the minds of those who are connected with the landed interest of the country. lam aware that of late years there has been a strong degree of suspicion and jealousy unwisely and foolishly encouraged between the landed and the commercial in. wrests. I hope that on this night, if not entirely laid aside, these jealousies will be suspended, and that we shall come to the con sideration of this question neither with a view to the exclusive advantage of the commercial or of the landed interest, but of both ; the more especially at a time like this, of great public distress, when it is more than ever expedient to unite, as much as possible, persons representing every kind of property, and connected with every kind of interest, in order to remedy the evils that now oppress us, and to avert the dangers that may hereafter threaten the country. I have, sir, likewise another apprehension that this mo o tion will be oppo sed,i as others of a similar kind have been, by the influence of the government in this house. I confess I cannot but think, that if some members of his majesty's government feel an ob. jection to my motion, it would yet be wiser on the whole, if they were not to array themselves as a body against a proposition of this nature. It is a proposition that will tend to bring into this house persons representing large classes of the population, and bearing a large proportion of the public burdens. There is an old quotation from Lord Bacon's works, which has often been heard within the walls of this house on subjects of this kind, and in which it is said that " time is a great innovator." If Lord Bacon had lived to the present day, he might have changed his maxim, and would have said " taxation is a great inno vator." Persons who bear great burdens are apt to look into them to demand their causes, and to satisfy themselves that the govern. went which imposes them is carried on with the strictest integrity, , and with a large and liberal purpose, which, perhaps, if they were less heavily taxed, they would not think of requiring. The people now look with more suspicion to the motives of this house than in any former times. With this notice of the reasons that induce me to bring it forward, I will now go to the motion I have to make, and state its nature and extent. The motion Is for leave to bring in a bill to enable the towns of Manchester, Birmingham, and Leeds, to send representatives to this house. Ido not intend that the repre. sentatives thus sent shall form a permanent, but only a temporary, addition to the number of members of this house. 1 intend to in sert a clause in the bill, by which, if any borough is hereafter disfranchised on account of corrupt practices, the prerogative vested in the Crown may be suspended till three b oroughs have been disfranchised, and the number of members in this house is reduced to the same state as at present. Such, Sir, is a simple statement of the Bill I mean to introduce. With regard to the amount of quail. fication I shall propose that it should be somewhere between ten and twenty pounds a year, and I would not allow non-resident voters to exercise their franchise at the election. I should recommend this in order that elections may be as short as possible, and that the else. dons of members for these towns may be in contrast rather than in confirmation to the established practices of bribery and corruption that prevail so much elsewhere. The grounds on which I propose this bill are not very difficult for the house to understand. (Hear.) It is per fectly acknowledged that it was an admitted principle of the con stitution in former times that when there were any towns which did not send representatives to parliament. and which were yet entitled to do so on account of the property they possessed and the interest they represented, parliament interfered, and by several acts eon. heted the right on these particular places, in order (as it was said with respect to Durham) to represent the condition of their county to Parliament. It is, therefore, evident with respect to places totally unrepresented, parliament has allowed the creation of new elective franchises whenever these places have been in a condition to cal/ for such an ace. But there is another point to which I wish to call the attention of the hots*: and that i s , t h at t h e bah of which I required the entries to be read have, Ind ' ast mined the declaration to be true—that Manch ester , so d Birmingham, are not sufficiently represented in this house ; t h at it is desirable. whenever a vacancy shall incur, to give repro seatatires to these places. I have, therefore, esta bli s h e d two po i ata ,• The one is, that what counties and places have been totally um& 'mewed, is Is In our power, and it is our duty, to give them rept sentatives t the other. that in case of those places being disfrattoldsed. the Rouse of Coalman* has already decided these towns bars a good right to be regreaeoted ; and that when any vacancy happens, it ought to be given to one of them. It will, therein', be seen . tinned to MI tin beim _ the chirtee 1., the Bak at Mgland ought at: ought not to be renewed ? Having laid - ADO 6......7 F.."".• v• • tere m •••••••'.. r•-r--, 1 -- -- -- system, —swear, gleans au non . men mow mm ken. w. =ant ma valor ." Persons who bear great burdens are apt to hat into them le ' ed by the b o d e d i nterest ; said that he could disprove the statements which had been tnade on to demand their causes, and to satisfy themselves that the govern- therefore they at least can Pori but manufacturing intaests never be said to hold their seats as the representatives of any menu- was to a certain extent represented , ~.cout the populations this subject. What were those statements ? That the duties had inent which imposes them is carried on with the strictest integrity, et y: The landed interest , acteirding to the present fee interest and are independent of any such. &sides they were scarcely fermented et all. ," run districts , . i risen and prices had fallen. Could his hot►. friend disprove that? He and with a large and liberal purpose, which, perhaps, if they were was sorry to hear this taken up as a colonial 'abject, for it was not less heavily taxed, they would not think of requiring. The peole Mt not very oace a gentleman becomes a county member, he generally remains toetion of the community, had no rePressomu 'ves in this house• a colonial, but a national subject—(Hear, hear.) He had urged now look with more suspicion to the motives of this house than - in so foe better s stem of dependent even upon th ose who do return them. When of which ware int nein, and which contemn the most tntewee • present bill being to obtain • y that the shutting out of East India sugar was an injury to the any former times. With this notice of the reasons that induce me parliaments ; and even though he be not able to attend Ten: object of the his duties man y ea, be does not in consequence lose his sate ar we have country and no benefit to the West India bode; and so it was to bring it forward, I will now go to the motion I have to make, and semis:lapis in the case of the member for Lancashire. But suppose Lord SANDON next addressed the house, but, standi n g the Let both sugars come in, and let the duties be reduced to an ad state ►ts nature and extent. The motion is for leas to bring in • representation for those distsicts he would support it in all n its sta ges the county manila had the fullest inclination to do all in his power the gallery, and directing his voice towards the.speaker cha ir , th : e saran rate; and with this system be would have both trades as bill to enable the towns of Manchester, Birmingham, and Leeds, to free as possible, and let the colonists have the power of sending send representatives to this house. Ido not intend that the repre. for the manufacturing interests of the place he represented, how noble lord was utterly inaudible in the reporter's gallery. A could be, and be alone, do all that might be required for his landed conclusion he moved the following amerdmat their produce to any port they pleased. Our absurd regulations sentatives thus sent shall form a permanent, but only a temporary, constituents, and at the same time attend to the numerous and •~ IflrstThat it is expedient that all boroughs tilt shall have to in this respect tended to impoverish, instead of enriching, our addition to the number of members of this house. I intend to in. cease plea innate of • large manufacturing and commercial been proved guilty of gross and notorious corruption shall colonists. sat a clause in the bill, by which, if any borough is hereafter community ? In Mr. HUSKISSON, said, he would not now touch upon the se- disfranchised on account of corrupt practices, the craned from bet- s- - - 0 - -ve are never able to attend to both ; and what is the consequence ?_ " Second—That' the right of returning members Laken to practise tt is seen that the county members exercise the right of returning members to this house. vent important topic" connected with this question,because a mote fit vested in the Crown may be suspended till three boroughs have been that when an y great question Is likely to come before the legislature roughs in which bribery and corruption shalt have been proved • opportunity would occur for going into it, and because another im- disfranchised , and the number of members in this house is reduced materially affecting their inttmests, or when they desire to bring for- prevail be given to some of the unrepresented manufacturing to w ns I ; portant subject was then' bout to be brought before . the house. As a to the same state as at present. Such, Sir, is a simple statement of member for a town deeply interested in the condition of our West the Bill I mean to introduce. With regard to the amount of quail. ward anything of themselves, instead of maki known though their or large counties." re tittles' in this house—the natural, I titan and censtitu- Lord Moarzen seconded the amendment. . India colonies, be must state that the question was one which ought e ca ti on I shall propose that it should be somewhere between ten and to attract the serious attention of government, for the claims of those twenty pounds a year , and I would not allow non-resident voters to t mode ofcommunicating with the logic tute—a body of del:- The original motion and the amendment having ban read by the ea are appointed, who come up to town and have interview. with speaker, on the question being put, ' colonies on its consideration were very strong. Among the many exercise their ftanchiie at the election. I should recommend this amendmrnr of the t. classes in the community which felt the pressure of the general dis- in order that elections may be as short as possible, and that the else- all and cotton y and iron wades, and efforts are made to make those nil- noble lord who had just sat down, no less than to the motion of the trees there were none who suffered more severely than those who tions of members for theft towns may be in contrast rather than in _ We were embarked in the colonial trade. confirmation to the established practices of bribery and coeruption that I com prehend the interests of thoseand bring forwardnoble lord (1 rd John Russell) opposite ; and for the ante reason. c paruse, .eat s ministers ; and ennferenme are held upon the stool, Mr. HORACE 'MISS war opposed to the attendee The Marquis of CIIANDOS said that he nod no intention of prevail so much elsewhere. The grounds on which I propose this bill th measures in parliament whi c h t he In t erests o r t igh t s of the, that both pledged the house to a general princirle of titan)), e il- taking ministers unawares on this question. So far tram it, he would era not very difficult for the house to understand. (Hear. It is per. appli ts squired. Haw in fi nitely better then that the people out a previous case of necessity having been established. co ul d l . l . e ,r of those districts should be !arty and constitutionally represented not with the noble lord (lead John Russell) that erh • the say tbat the subject was before th em for the last four months. he'll acknowledged that It toes ea admitted principle of the con' in this house; that Birmi m, Leeds, and Manchester, should articles of union with Scotland or Ireland afforded any Pretext w e The petition was then brought up and read. stitution in former times that when there were any towns which did On the question - that it do lie on the table, not send representatives to parliament , and which were yet entitled return members capable of advocating their interests, and explaining interfering with our present system of legislation.. With . res pec t a t to . their views. A due represeatatiou or those districts would also be Ireland, th e noble lord was lnerror. or rather, his i ntere nc .• t p d ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE IN TUE COLONIES. to do so on account of the property they possessed and the interest Mr. Blti rUGHAM said he would take that opportunity of ask- they represented, parliament interfered, and by several acts con. log a question of the right honourithie gentleman, the Secretary of fared the right on these particular places, in order (as it was said attended with this beneficial effect, that it would prevent the aliens- plied to England, were not borne out by fleet Till a recent period ttt .. 1 . 1 den of the pulite mind of those districts from the House of Can: Catholics. a the noble lord well knew, were not :n possession of t he the Colonies. The right bon. gentleman would recollect, that in the with respect to Durham) to represent the condition of their county men'-it mig ht be expected to excite a feeling a eon- elective franchise, and till a period still mete recent, though they • and mks Ikea ds tomes of difficulty and distress look to hail been put into possession of the right of election, they were cou l ee of the last sees= he (Mi. Brougham) gave notice of a utto- to Parliament. It is, therefore, evident with respect to places she elm and e s ub era d ose of p ar li ament , r a th e r than l ega lly in e li g ibl e to b: elected. The case was different as t° En g . Lion for leave to bring in a bill for the purpose of rendering slave totally unrepresented, parliament has allowed the creation of new m aw „ rif ebilk own- Even in the t session ls.;d • lie was rather surp rised evidence am bleadmissi in the colonies ;but he was inducsd to withdraw elective franchises whenever those places have been in a condition l i ke i7 trele g nme 1 to c ane on i n w hist, w a di ng end f orwar d w i t h a t measure of reform like that which he had l ust that nodes quence of a declration made by the right MN to cal/ for such an act. But there is another point so which I „.. Pm made mail est. MOO are inteseeted....the charter of the suntans to the house, that he had not previously .1 , when he heard the noble lord cane gent. that it was the intention of government to introdu ce . a gene- w i s h to call the attention of the hoe* ;and that is, that the bilis =c ooopeur e gp iet ilismp i a . coal 4 ' quest i on lik e to the satisfaction of t h e b oom , some p ar ticular grievance_ t Mc of which I required the entries to be read have, in fact , ett d eo k o gem * a wire* decided, without Ti' existing conthutional system of representation which would justify ral measure for the improvemeut of the judicial administration in all our colonies, and that. amongst o t her reforms, it would embrace mined the declaration to be trus—that Manchester, Leeds, and b ung to.thn Vatic obi* tits repreentatiees of treks awns a measure of reform . it was true, that it was ftoeuendY asserted the admission of slaw evidence. Now the question be wished to Birmingham, are not be • fereseeted in this house • i ga ii a w s eim u s is e . my*, mod whin* aseweispeso *ace feelings by boonrable members, that that house did not Moment the of the ask was, whether it was the lanolin of the right hoar gentlentans that it is desirable. whenever a vicaref shall neur, to glee ropro- 0 1 we a wes * limo nt a ,o, o ar e th e le ", w pm p How pop', of Wand. Li, by duly tenoned'', th e male be the in the prang 'mins to redeem the pledge then given, and if so, eema ii ree to t h ese pl a ces. I have, therefore, established two poista.• mu m i k e , oome h m is f sh e ogle erith Italie god phis Chas be in , people of Endlsod it was meant that that bates should bow non the house alight sap -. to hear what were the measures The one is, that wine CONIMMA and piscaa hays been totally taus T y ' alow i'w — T — ele d T hug' duos aide ? Theo cast• dm banking mere index of the fluctuating opinions et chant people— opinions e so . *ilia it was intended to in sea ? preeemed, it Is in our power, and it is our duty, to give them rept- oe. Who so St to be 0 0 en* XilesiooP alibi repte- necessarily tersporary, as being at one time constant upon pai iti Sir ( ) . MUIdAY said, he recollected Tag well the circum' sentatiees = t i e o th er, that in caner those places bangdisfranchien, imbibes of L ee d s , of set I Who so distress, at engine tune oseestend by atoosoue views at t heir Itaiseell ansoer t i: w go li a elt a oo the Zt___--..t. and limaird , 11 1,11 i gal was ticulau lli 11 `— all hOa ude o d ukt il l: s a d dl t g b o s od i t g ac ht of to heCTerceseaaman._A.kaa; alrea dye.a., decided any shear eaca i n a r la y nappre j a _ r _ i _ a a . wined to sista the bettetTln lag w the china of the own interest—he, for one, would admit Oat the assereion was learned genders= had; Stated. it was still the Intention of his it ought to be given to one of them. It •ill, therein', be lan .Lk of England ought or ought not to be renewed ? Having laid we ll f oun d e d ;h e wou ld go fa r ther, and goateed that it was UM \ P0 1 1 1a " ..... ._ .... - ....- . .--... . .. _ .. . . . . •••- - - - '