Star. — London, England, 1820-07-25 00:00:00

, _valor ior claratibti acasTighfrourable to %Ito), all Bills of Pains alhil Benatiess,sopt those that had occurred - since tke Revolution. Now, if th at w e re t h e caul, he wislied the Ikaroed Lord to lav his finger on that • * - .BM oh lailliValti*Nnalties, since the Revolution, in' which he would not find a greater specification of times and places than was contained in this Bill. In deed he would go Farther, and say, that a luminous seification of both was to he found in those Bills. Abe only Bill of Pains and Penalties that bore the slightest analogy to the present, was that which con cerned Bishop Atterhury and two other persons. • Now he knew, from the preamble of this Bill, that previou4y to its being laid on their Lordships table. a long and voluminous Report had been made by a Secret Committee, whi h contained not merely the matter of charge, and of everything connected with it, 'but comprised:the whole narrative of the proceed ings which had been discovered ; and-the persons standing accused were fully apprised of the nature of the accusation. They did not, indeed, receive the Report itself, but the Bill certainly did contain 'specification of the charges.much longer, more pre cise, and more complete, than that which was com prised in this Bill. He did not mean to consider this case-with reference to the individual, but with regard • to the character and consistency of their Lordships House, and thetefore he wished it should be clearly understood in what the inconvenience of giving a plain specification of time and place consisted. For aught he knew, it would not be more advantageous to the person accused to have the places and times specified, than to have a proper period granted for catering on the defence, when the case on one side was closed. That, however, was not the question on which the House had then to decide; it was for - them to proceed on those principles of constitutional and 'substantial justice, leaving out of their consi deration questions of law which did not apply to so anomalous a case, and to adopt those means only which appealed best calculated to discover the truth. They were nor to consider whether any particular proceeding would. be advantageous to this party or to that, but whether it was-fit, and wise, and proper for their Lordships to adopt—( Hear, hear).—There fore, as their Lordships would not deliver in a list of witnesses, it was for them to decide whether it would be more applicable to the attainment of substantial justice to refuse the present request, and to admit a great delay between, the close of the accusation and the commencement of the defence. They ought not, he conceived, to'adhere strictly to forms, for he was convinced it would be more consistent with their dignity, and more in accordance with the ends of substantial justice at this aline, to look attentively at the easiest mode by which that justice could be ad ministered. It was on this ground that he, for one, was inclined to hear arguments stated at their Lord ships' bar, on the subject of this Petition ; and after wards it might be decided .with more propriety, whether a clearer specification of time and place should be allowed than was now inserted in the Bill. —The proceedings of their Lordships, and the mode, which they had thought proper previously to adopt, were fraught with the greatest possible inconvenience. Suppose a majority of their Lordships voted for a clear specification of time and place, to whom were they to go for the necessary information? Were they to apply to the Secret Committee? He did not know whether they had anything whatsoever to do with the Bill: having made their Report, their office was, he believed, at an end. Their Lordships who were Members of that Committee, had not, of course, divulged any part of that which was communicated to them. He believed the "resolution of the House Sad been stated to his Majesty's Attorney-General; but he did not understand that any part of the charge, except what the Bill contained, had been communi cated to that Learned Gentleman. When. therefore, the Attorney-General appeared at their Lordships' Bar, to open the case, he should be glad to know from whence was the specification of charges which he was to lay before their Lordships to proceed? From whence was the statement of those charges to cc.me? If they IA cm to be regulated by precedents, he found that their Lordships, in the case which he had before mentioned, did give notice of the sources from whence the information was to be derived ; and he under stood, from the Journals of the House of Commons, that a similar communication was made to the At torney-Generil, at the Bar of that House, where the proceedings originated. But here the whole of the specification of charges was suspended, as it were, in air; so that neither the accused nor the prosecuting party was acquainted with it. He thought, what ever they might do with the present Petition, it was necessary, for the consistency of that House, to under stand from whom a specification of the offences im puted, and a list of the witnesses were to be derived, . when the matter came to be opened at their Bar. With respect to the request contained in the Petition, it appeared to him to be most convenient, and con ducive to the ends of justice, that the Queen should be furnished-with the specification required. This, he conceived, would be better than to have an appli cation, in the midst of a process of this nature, for a long delay. As far as he had been able to under stand the subject, it was impossible that the Queen could be preparing for her defence at present, be muse she knew not where to look for her witnesses. There was one part of the question which certainly was of minor importance, which was, indeed, insig nificant, when compared with other subjects which raturally grew out *f it ; but undoubtedly, if the specification were refused to her Majesty, it would be the means of putting the Country to an enormous led almost indefinite expense; for, unless she knew tie specific places in which the charges had been made against her, she would be obliged to place at their Lordships' bar a motley assemblage of wit nesses, drawn from every quarter of the world that she had visited during the past six years. This was a point of convenience; and as it referred both to the accused party and die country, he trusted it would rot be lost sight of. As to the substantial justice of, the case, he was sure no leaning to the one side or the other would affect their Lordships judgment; but in point of consistency, convenience, and analogy, Ise thought it would be much better to furnish the person accused with a clear spe. , fication, such as the Fetition called for, than at a future time to grant a long period to enable her to prepare for her defence —(fleer, hear, hear). The Earl of LIVER POOL was aware of the diffi c...6e6 of drawing a strict analogy; buthe observed, ,- • % 9 their Lordships should consider in what situation the affair ln question stood, or was placed, with respect to the House. A Bill was bionght in by a Member ~of the House, and her Counsel almost immediately desired that their Lordships would agree with the same forthwith, and without an interval of even two: days. The House, however, Betided' according to the true dictates of substantial justice, so far comply ing with her Majesty's wish as to agree to bring on the measure as soon as they could hope for some at tendaoce on the part of the Learned Judges. The 17th of August was fixed upon as the earliest day they could be expected, or that the House could go on consistently with the principles of substantial justice. He would ask, if they hail literally complied with her Majesty's wish at the time, how could what she now required be answered ? He stated this merely to shew an additional difference between the present and other cases which were alluded to. Let Noble Lords look at the preamble of the Bill; they would sec it actually charged her Majesty with a "continued" adulterous intercourse, therefore it was from necessity the charge itself took in so long an interval of time. The generality of the nature of the charge then pre cluded such an indulgence as was required, and ren dered it in a manner impracticable. With respect to a long interval between the charge and the defence, there could scarcely, he thought, be a greater advan tage for the party accused, in not having t 6 enter upon the defence immediately. Of this, however, there were instances in other cases before that House. In the Courts below it was, until lately, the practice for Juries never to separate until they had come to their wcision. The separation of the Jury was, an evil in itself, and it would be better to go on at once. But when, from the nature and necessity of the case, the separation is fairly preferable or unavoidable, a different principle was acted upon, and then, it was not of much importance whether the separation was for a longer or a shorter interval. They well knew of cases before Parliament going on for years, with long intervals of separation, their judgments being necessarily suspended for the time, and this further 'sheaved the vast difference between proceedings be fore Parliament and in the Courts below. The ques tion was, whether they should extend to the accused greater advantages here than she would have in the Courts below ; and whether, when the interval which she must have for her defence was considered, they could, under such circumstances, grant what is now required? For his part, he never recollected any instance, even in cases of Divorce Bills : and, with respect to what was said.of the case being previously proved in Doctors' Corbmons, he answered, that whatever might have taken place in those Courts, their Lordships alway required satisfactory evidence at their own Bar, and upon which alone they founded their decision. Taking the whey together, and when he considered what they had been called upon by her Majesty's Counsel to do, he saw nothing in the pre sent circumstances of the case that should induce the: House to agree to what was now required. GOD for bid they should do anything contrary to what sub stantial justice called for. He was willing to afford every fair advantage to the accused, and that where any doubts may exist, they should operate on theside of humanity. Lord KING thought sufficient time should be al lowed, though it was not very easy to draw the balance. They should rise superior to prejudices.-.- In trying the Illustrious Accused, under the peculiar circumstances of the case, perhaps they should ex tend some degree of extraordinary indulgence to her, as they were not restricted by such rules as the Courts below. A list of the witnesses should, perhaps, be communicated, for they should avoid even all ap pearance of injustice. They should hesitate ere they refused that which may be generally thought a rea sonable demand, nor avoid doing that which their better feelings may dictate.,. He felt they must do justice to the Illustrious Accused, and most ear nestly hoped they would never see another instance of the kind. Earl BATHURST argued,that on the same grounds on which their Lordships declined acquiescing in the prayer of the former Petition, their Lordships were called upon to decline the application in the present instance; and he entertained strong doubts, whether, if they were called upon to specify the precise place wherein the alleged adultery was committed, it would not tend to limit and shackle the course of the in quiry, and they could hardly, he thought, bring themselves to do that which would preclude evidence , from being brought as to the general conduct of the accused. No information, no advantage, could re sult to the accused from knowing it was at Milan, or some other place, the offence charged was com mitted? Upon the whole, it would be better for the defence, if the denied information were withheld.— Notwithstanding the solicitude recently expressed for a speedy invesugation, they now called for infor mation for the purpose of obtaining "evidence from all those places, and her Majesty's Advocates talked of the 17th of August as too near a day, as if it could be meant that her Majesty was to make her defence on that day. Lord ERSKINE was desirous of re-stating shortly his reasons for wishing that Counsel should& heard. The Noble Earl had observed that there was no ana logy between this case and ordinary judicial pro ceedings. Nothing indeed could be clearer than that principle of our law which required, both in treason and felony, that the person accused should know precisely what the charge against hin-. was. He did not complain merely that this proceeding was ano malous; nor did he with to bind down Parliament to the rules obseried in Courts of subordinate ju risdiction; but he thought that they would act wisely in drawing their proceedings as neat as pos sible to those rules. The Noble Earl had asked, of what advantage this concession could be to the Queen?—to which he (Lord Erskine) replied, that she was the proper judge of that; and that such a doctrine as that maintained by the Noble Earl would be heard with disgust in every Court of law. The true question was, whether any injustice would be done by conceding . this indulgence ? whether the case for the accusation would at all suffer by it ? In ordinary cases of divorce, it was open to the party to reexamine all witnesses who might be produced for the plaintiff. But in the present instance a great difficulty would occur in this respect. Would it be possible, after the interval which was to be allowed, to callgisack, and to subject to re-examination, the witnesses brought forward in support of the charge ? Hue was a period of sir years, upon sakish age- neral charge possible etery as to was. ai vele by._ 'video, must be ' fore di, called back, .iarge nature to which he - had alluded, he should conclude his observations by moving, "That Counsel be now heard at the Bar in support of the Petitioe The House then divided upon this motion— Non Contents - - 37 Contents - to Majo dry against the Motion - —25 Adjourned until to-morrow (this day). HOUSE OF COMMONS. At half past three, the House was summoned to the House of Lords, to hear the Royal As.ent by Commission given to sundry Bills. A 'Message from the Lords announced their Lordships assent to the British Fishery Bill, the Alien Bill, Tomkines Lottery Bill, Scotch Distillery Bill, Spirits Intercourse Bill, Post Horse Duties Bill, Irish Insolvent Debtors' Bill, and other Bills. A new Writ was ordered to be Issued for Heytesbury, in the room of Colonel A'Court, who has accepted the office of Stew ard of the Chiltern Hundreds. The Lords' Amendments to the Ells for altering the Penal Laws were agreed to. Mr. Woonaoors, from the Fleet Prison, laid certain Accounts betbre the House. ' ADJOVRNMENT. Lord CASTLEREAGH gave notice, that on the rising of the House to-morrow, he should move that it adjourn to Mon day, the 41st of August. LIBEL UPON THE QUEEN. . Mr. WETHERELL rose to call the attention of the House to a paragraph in Flyndelfs Western Lu '-minary. Hetvould read the massage to which he al luded to the House :—" Shall a woman, who is as notoriously devoted to Bacchus as to Venus—shall such a woman as Would, if found .on our pavement, be committed to Bridewell and.whipped, be held up in the light of suffering innocence?" He thought it his duty to take this step, because it was impossible for the House to pretend to be ignorant of the nature of the Bill which had recently been introduced in an other place, or of the severe punimeft whikh, if it were passed into law, it would in ßict upon.her Ma jesty. The paragraph to which he alluded was one cf the most gross attempts which he had ever wit nessed to pervert the course of justice, as itdeclared, in the most offensive terms, that the Queen was actu ally guilty of the charges which had recently been preferred against her. It was true that the proceed ing pending elsewhere was not in strictness a judicial proceeding ; but it could not be denied that it was an act of one branch of the Legislature connected with a most solemn and extraordinary judicial in quiry. Being such, it might also be brought before them : and therefore the House was,. as far as re garded it, to all intents and purposes a Court of Law. Now, if a paragraph had appeared in any publication, reflecting upon the lowest and most subordinate sub ject in the realm, in the same manner that this shame less paragraph did reflect uppn the most exalted sub ject in it, the lower Courts would deem it their duty, supposing that the honour and character of the indi vidual thus assailed were to be on trial before them, to punish the author of such paragraph for wickedly attempting to bias the minds of the Jury and to de stroy the freedom and impartiality of justice. Would then that House, acting as the High Court of Parlia ment, fail to exercise those judicial duties which its situation entailed upon - it, and which every other - Court would feel itself imperiously called upon to exercise under similar circumstances ? Would they allow those insinuations, which would be severely punished if made against the meanest individual in the country whilst under trial, to remain unnoticed when uttered against the highest ? If they did, they would not be acting with that even-handed justice which it became them, above all others, to observe upon this particular occasion. It was impossible for him to put the motion which he intended to make upon this subject into proper form by to-morrow; — but he trusted that the House would not suffer this attack upon her Majesty, which he conceived to be equally an attack upon the privileges of Parliament, to pass without severe animadversion when it should meet again after the adjournment. Indeed he could wish that what he had just been paying should be considered, and stand as a notice of motion upon this subjects for he should certainly move, after the ad journment, " That the House do give instructions to his Majesty's Attorney and Solicitor-General to file a criminal information against the Proprietor and Edi tor of Flyndelts Western Luminary, for the gross and scandalous paragraph Which it had lately contained against her most gracious Maje s ty Q ueen Caroline— (The Hon. Gentleman sat down amid loud cheering). Mr. TIERNEY asked the Honourable Member, whether he could not lay the.paragraph in question upon the table that evening, and afterwards give notice of such motion as he contemplated for to-morrow ? Mr. WETHERELL was not prepared to take this step : he had not a copy of the Paper in question at that time in his possession. Dr. LUSHINGTON suggested, that the Paper could be procured either in the coursref that evening or of to-morrow. Mr. WETHERELL then gave notice of the above motion for to-morrow. 1.--attempie4 to make a speech , was fordbly seized , aii g i e d 's o hliiigate„ , The Petition in cons*. of these charges, called an the House to in .: into the conduct of the High S'leriff, of tl' e igistrates of Police, and of the Horse Police, v..1. 0 ‘ e -frrence was hostile to the freedom of Electier., as hurtful to the feelings of the Roman Ca. population. the motion that this Petition be laid on the tabl e , ABERCROMBIE expressed a doubt wheti l ( 3 . of its allegations did not bring- ir within the d e . 'scription of an Election Petition, such as ought to be referred to the Committee to. whom Mr. Grattan's Petition had been sent. Sir GEORGE HILL, on behalf of the Govern. ment of Ireland, affirmed that the alleged grievance s had not been brought under its notice, which, if they had, would imnrediately have been legally investi gated, and if found true, redressed. He larnentei! the bitter party-spirit which had prevailed at t hi. Election, and which this Petition seemed frArned to perpetuate, while every good man must wish them consigned to oblivion. A Right Zion. Baronet bad r',l a former occasion brought forward a statement un-2ed on what appeared in. the Dublin Evening Post, into whichinquiry had since been made, and the ma le; was ascertained to be entirely a fabrication. presumed, might he some of the outrages des::ibM in this Petition; and he cautioned the House ag:iiiist attaching the same credit to them a• if they haJ ben sustained by an offer of proof to support them. 'flier might have been can ied before the proper tribunal,., and if redress had been refused, then the House uvula have had reason to interfere, but this course had not been taken, and he viewed the Petition as an Elu tion ebullition, calculated to keep alive animosities that had far better he buried. Mi. CALCII.AI 7 T said, that the Honourable Gen. tleman's mode of getting rid of this Petition, arid the transaction upon v.-hich it was founded. would not succeed ; for there was an Election Petition already before the House, which would bring the s ter to light. The Honourable Baronet had laihented the existence of party-spirit in this Election, and seemed to have forgotten that it existed the mou vio lently amongst those with whom he was connected— he meant that violent faction, the Orange faction (Hear). The Honourable lilaronet had likewise said, that no communication of these outrages had beia made to the Irish Government ; but it was not tp.i!e clear that, that Government did cot take an arti7e part in exciting them. Party violence certainly existed more on the side with which the Honourable Baronet wasconnected than on that of the Petitioners, whom he had blamed for it. Sir GEORGE HILL explained. He neither w.l;, nor ever had been, an Oiange-man. He was to allow, that there had been very great and unia::- fiable party-spirit on both sides. Mr. BERNAL should move that the Petition be printed, in order that Honourable Members might be able to judge of its merits, which they could not otherwise do, on account of its extreme length. Ile shOuld do this, because if any Military had Intel ferod in the Election, the House was bound to proceed im mediately with the Petition, and not to wait for the result of that presented against the Election. Sir GEORGE HILL said, that no Mili.ary had been employed except the Horse Police, and for no other purpose than that of preserving the peace. Mr. TIERNEY said, that in the present state of the House and of the Session, it was quite clear that this matter could not be taken into consideration. He trusted, however, that the House would turn its at tention to it on a future occasion, as it Was of great importance to know which party was right and v. hid) was wrong. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER wished this Petition to be consideted as an Electioa Petition, and to be referred to the Committee on the Dublin Election. Mr. TIERNEY said, it could not be disposed of as an Election Petition, except on the present occasion. The Act provided that an Election Petition should be presented within fourteen days after the return, and that time would have elapsed before the House met after the adjournment. Mr. V. FITZGERALD said, that the Petition could not even be received now as an Election Peti tion, since the fourteen days had elapsed. The House might still entertain it at any future per:c.d.:l a question of privilege—( Hear, ken r). The Petition was then laid on the table, and or dered to be printed. Hr. HODGSON presented a Petition from the Inhabiratus of Wigan, Lancashire, for the removal of Restricdons on F. reign Trade.—Laid on the table. The Report of the London Bridge Committee was presented, laid on the table, and ordered to be printed. Mr. Alderman WOOD ruse to present a Reform retit!ov, signed by several persons of Birmiagbarn, in bebali of a lame body of the people. He said it had come so recently into Ms lands and was so long, that he h a d not b een a b le to certais whether ra it was so correct in language as to be uneacerionble. All that he could say was, that be had seen nothing in it width should cause it to be rejected. It complained generally cf the want of Reform, and rather referred to the last Parliameat that to the present. When read by the Clerk, however, the Bowe would better able than be wait to judge whether it should at should not be received. The CHANCELLOR cf the EXCIIRQUEkt called the at tention of the Honourable Aldernmn to the inr.onvenient of the paper he held in his hand, and suggested the prophesy of his not presenting it till tomorrow ' by which tittle be might have examined its language, so as tobe able to sive the Hoar the satisfactory assurances - el:aired from Membersinhisaimatiso. Mr. Alderman WOOD stated, that he had only just come into the House, and that he did not know. when be pranged the Petition, that the House would sit to-morrow. lie WAS. therefore, anxious to present it before the adjournment. lit would ask leave to withdraw the Petition for the psesent, as be should have an opportunity of reading It before the How afr senthled etition withdrawn. -INSOLVENT DEBTORS' SILL. The ATTORNF.Y-GENER AL moved, « That the nowt do agree to this Bill, as amended by the Lords." Mr. ADVICRCIMIT, Mr. Cassette, and Mr. Caccamprobjected to agreeing to those Amendments without knowing their "awn. Mr. COMM:PAY and Mr. Waserrasury stated, that the Amend ments did not affect the principle of the IJW, but only its detain. The machinery of the Bill was much improved by them. The CHANCELLOR at the EXCIIEQJUItIi loped dot the Honourable Gentlemen on the tuber side of the House aroma (fallen not object to the passing of th e at present, after what' hail front the two Learnrd Gentlemen. The Amensinicats wen then agreed to, and de Mg • 4,uicild t ed, was passel Sir W. DE CUESPUMY asked the Chancellor of the chequer, whether be had any lineation of acceding to anyof the plans whicA had been suggested to him for a better mode of of. feeling a sonsposhion ache Asunmel - Tasies? The CHANCELLOR of the llMCiiKQUitit weadd net pledge himself to any suc'a intention, Sir W. DE CILESPIGhItir bend Wive le ask the nigh( ametaabis efts asaba smosice. roadies it war So charge was brought forward; and bow was it' who MI de that the accused should be 'able to meet. and ael Ogee tif evidence which "night be4dvabced quence circumstances occurr,ipg during that,. 'pug quire ii ?' In every ether case some pa,!ticulit act Magisti dinged. Here die aciusatlon was altogether. interier and general. It'eould, therefore, only * met as well ridence of gear' al conduct, which 'evidence tholic p be brought from beyond the seas. As he there- Oat! lid not see that the accusing witnesses could be Mr. back, and as the charge was of that general some 01 IRISH DISTILLEMES. On Ilse moths of the Cus.wczu.oa of the Eseintotres for the House going Into a Committee on the Irish Distillery Bill, The Hononralsk A. CHICHESTER opposed the Speaker's leaving the Chair, on the ground that the subj ect h a d not b een sufficiently discus sed, and the House was deficient in informa tion upon it. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said a few words in reply; and, after a conversation, in which Mr. C. Horicassoos ' Lord Casnitaaaou, Mr. Cincessua, and the Right Hon. Gentleman took pan, ft was agreed that the further consideration of the Report should be deferred till that day tines months, and the Bill as amended be printed. The Small Stills Bill, and the Unlicensed Stills Bill, were forwarded in a similar way, and their further consideration post poned to the same period. DUBLIN ELECTION. Lord DUNCANNON presented a Petition signed by several Freemen of Dublin, and complaining of the undue interference of the Horse Police during the late likctiou for that City. l'he l'etitiou detailed several acts of violence, which it imputed to the Po, lice, and asserted, that they were resorted to us fa your of Mr. Ellis, the successful Candidate. It ap peared, that a considerable riot had taken place, tlvat some persons was wounded, bad Um& one Williams 1 • 1' I' ' I t ; i .