Star. — London, England, 1830-03-19 00:00:00

entered upon in the idea of an inquiry into the distressed state of the labouring classes. Now, how could they proceed in order to ascer tain that the distress was general, but by going into every county ? And the first object of inquiry would be--what number of workmen were employed, and what wages they received. Let hien suppose these inquiries to be ipetituted with respect to agricultural la bourers. But if they found they were not adequately paid—that they could scarcely subsist upon what they received for their la bour, would they not be bound, in justice to the subject, to pur sue the inquiry further, and to inquire what bad induced the farm ers; and land-owners to reduce their wages to so low a point ? They would probably answer that the re aced prices of agricul. turd produce had compelled them to do so. Here then was another fertile field of inquiry. What had produced the low prices of agri cultural produce ? The farmers might indeed take anodic" ground distinct from that of the landlords. They might probably say teat their rents had not been reduced to a level with the prices of produce. and then at last they must go to the landlords to ask them why they had not reduced their rents. Thus it was plain that the first inquiry must naturally and necessarily lead them to in it vepitig: tion of the whole internal state of the country. The same process also mutt be followed with respect to manufacturing labour. They would first have to inquire the rate of wages. and when, they found that wages were insu ffi cient for the maintenance of ' the workmen, they must proceed a step higher in the scale. He was not saying that wages were in fact insufficient ; he was only assuming that such things might be told them. They must then resort to the manufacturer to ask why he gave wages to his work. rien so utterly incompetent to their support. The answer would probably be, that profits were so small that if he gave higher wages that would be no profit ; that if he gave higher wages it would be imports!. ble for him to compete with foreigners either in the home market or abroad. With respect to the home market they would be referred to the redundant supply from machinery, and to the competition of foreigners, against which they were no longer adequately protected. He did not say this was so ; but this was probably what they would be told. And thus they would be led to inquire into what had foolishly and improperly been called a system of free trade. They would also no doubt be told that the manufacturer could not send goods to the foreign markets but at so low a price that if he gave higher wages he must cease to send them at all. So that theirbordships must perceive, that instead of entering upon an inquiry into the condition of the working classes, they would in effect institute an enquiry into every particular connected with the manufacturing, the agricultural, and the trading interests' of the country. But this was not all. Not only were they to inquire into the state of the productive classes, but into the effeetsof taxation upon the productive industry of the country. This, it was plain, opened the 'whole subject of taxatim, for there was no tax which did not more or less affect the productive industry of the country. So that the inquiry was to be into all the interests of agriculture, manufactures, and commerce, and to these was to be added a further inquiry into the whole of the financial affairs of the country. His noble relative had said that he wished for a further reduction of taxation. This was very easily said, but it was proper to recollect that for taxes taken offisome sub stitute must be provided. He knew it might be contended that a diminution of taxes led to an increase of revenue, by adding to the consumption. This, however, was uncertain. All that was certain was, that when taxes were taken off there must be for the first yearoe two a decided loss. Into this subject, however, it was not his purpose to enter. All he intended was to chew, that under the present motion they were culled upon to engage in an inquiry into all that related to the agriculture, all that related to the manufactures, all that am laced to the commerce, and all that related to the finances of the country. (Hear.) He could not consent to a motion so extensive as this. lie would not hold out to the country such expectations as the appointment of this committee would be calculated to inspire.— lie would not above all, lead the working classes to expect some great improvement of their condition from the labours of such a committee. Ile would be no party to such a delusion, or to the disappoinunent which must inevitably follow. But this was not all. The noble duke said he would be disposed to exclude from their inquiries the tax upon foreign corn, or as it had been some. what invidiously c elled, the tax upon bread. No, his noble friend did not with any inquiry into this. But could his noble friend answer for others ? Could he have any doubt, in fact, that the corn laws must be discussed in such a committee as he now pro posed ? He was as averse as his noble Mend to the triennial discussion of this subject. The law with respect to the importation of foreign corn was now settled. He wished it to remain so. Nothing could be so mis chievous both to landlord and tenant as uncertainty upon this subject. But he war certain that if such an inquiry as was pro posed should once begin, an inquiry involving the interests of all classes--of landlords, tenants, labourers, manufacturers, work. men—they should deeply disappoint the working classes of this country if they did not also inquire into the foreign corn tax. If he considered the immediate relief only of the labouring classes, he should say that the first thing they ought to do was to remove the tax upon foreign corn; but if he looked to their permanent in. terests. he should say, let full and ample protection be still ex tended to agriculture. He would say, that to open the trade to fo. reign corn, without any protection to British agriculture, would be to ruin the most valuable market of our manufacturers, the home market. li is noble relation might be disposed to shut out one ques. thou from this otherwise unlimited inquiry. He said it was impossible. But there was another question of equal importance; he meant the question of the currency, which other noble lords might be disposed to shut out. This he said with equal confidence, would be impos sible also. If they were to establish such a committee of inquiry, they could not shut it out.—(Hear, hear, from Lord Stanhope ). His noble friend, who introduced a motion for this extensive and unlimited kind of inquiry said " hear hear." What was this but a proof, if proof were required, that the question of currency could not be shut out. It would evidently be impossible to shut it out. A noble marquis, a high authority upon this and every other subject in their lordships' house, if he were a member of the committee, would certainly introduce it; for upon the discussion some weeks ago of a motion very similar to the present, he had expressly said that the introduction of a mixed standard of gold and silver as a remedy for the distresses of the country was a fit subject of inquiry, and had also said that this was the ancient standard of the country. As he had been led to allude to this subject, he woultl take that opportunity of adverting to something which had. fallen from the noble marquis upon that occasion. He had asserted that up to the year 1797 silver was the only legal standard I at least he so understood him. knowing as he did the exclusive and accurate information of the noble marquis, and speaking therefore with great diffidence, be could not help thinking that he had in this instance fallen into an error. He thought that in the year 1717, on the recommendation of Sir Isaac Newton, then master of the mint, and in pursuance of an unanimous address of both Houses of Parliament, a nation was issued, establishing gold as the current coin ort o l l if realm. Both silver and gold were then,as now, the current coin of the king dom, but the noble marquis appeared to think that in practice at least silver was most employed. The fact, however appeared to be, that gold from that time was considered the principal coin. From 1717 to 1797, the whole amount of silver coin which was issued from the Itlint was no more than 5651. From the moment they placed a limit beyond which silver was not a legal tender, it ceased to be the current coin of the realm, in the strict sense of the words. It was said that it might still be received by weight; but to what did this amount? The intrinsic value of the silver in circulation was 30 per cent. below its nominal value, so that if a man wanted to pay, a bill of 701. in silver, it would ke of the silver coin then cur rent to the amount of 1001. to pay it. Then what was the tact with respect to the silver token. Nobody could be compelled to receive this coin in payment to a greater amount than 21. Suppose then, it might be said, a person had a payment to make to the amount of 701. and had silver tokens in his possession to that amount, what would be his remedy ? His remedy was this, to pay to the Bank his 701. in silver, and the next day he might receive for it 70 golden sovereigns. Then what was the state of the currency now ? They had gold as the legal currency of the country, but they had also silver tokens, and when he said that the latter were in circulation to 'the amount of seven millions, it could not be denied that in point of 'practice silver now formed a considerable proportion of the cur. rency. He adverted to these considerations to show their lordships • that if 'they entered into the committee, the people would expect them to revise the whole system of the currency. The petitions 'Complaining of distress were frequently adverted to. Were their lordships nut aware that more than half the petitions on their table which complained of distress distinctly ascribed the distress to the state of the currency ? If, therefore, they excluded this subject from their inquiry, they could not claim the merit of entering into an in. quiry from respect to the petitions of the people. Then he said once more that they could not enter into this conunittee, unless they were prepared to open an investigation of all the affairs of agricul ture, all the affairs of the manufactures, all the taxes, all the trade of the country, the corn laws, the currency, and that until the cam wince had finished its labours, complicated and protracted, the country in respect to all these important subjects would be in a state of suspense. He objected to such a committee, which in the end could be productive of no advantage, and during, the progress of its enquiries must keep every interest and class of the community in a mate of doubtful and anxious suspense. The Earl of MANSFIELD would agree to the motion of hie noble friend. He should have been convinced of the necessity et inquiring into the state of the country, even had he not heard die admirable speech of his noble friend. But it would requite on the usher hand vary strong arguments indeed to convince him that fir was inexpedient for parliament to institute . = inquiry, when it was not denied that great distress existed, land when they received maw and urgent petitions Aunt the people, praying them to "hiveselsou it tense. , with a view . be administer relief. The objectless tin tMie ..notion must .relate either to the object of this inquiry, ge suk the .uioncr in . irli it Wgs proposed to conduct it. Tits *Kt :titateoTold, t 0 ant into the situadon of the laws** anus .pottpliAnet taqhieffeet taxation upon the row. thee iniimatay• .I,z The ion= in which kweipentand i., ~t ~, . to institute these inquiries appeared to him to be equally unobjec tionable. A Select Committee was in his opinion the bast means by which Parliament could investigate any subject. It had been objected that the multiplicity of topics to which the enquiry would, lead precluded the hope of ha ever arriving at a terminatloa. He hoped, however, that this di ffi culty would not be on ansquerable. lie ad not the good thrtune to be present at the commencement of the Session, but the tense in which his Majesty had been advised to speak of the distress of the country had appeared to him, as to many others, to be rather lighter than the circumstances warranted. Not but that he believed theirs lighter touches might have cost more labour pothaps than all the rest of the Speech, to those who composed it. There was s certain class of po liticians who believe that all was well provided they were seedbed, like the French gourmand, quasi U a bien elites croi Ist le +wow& heureux—( laugh.)—This class of politicians it was that recom mended patience to the people under their passost satiforings,assue-i ing them that nothing was the matter. It wag an undoubted fact that the patience of the people was most exemplary. To what this was owing he knew not. Perhaps it was confidence in the stability of the I present ministry, of whom there was a sort of feeling that they were as secure as the national debt, limn which there was no prospect that the country would be relieved.—(a laugh.) lie gave no opi. nion of his own upon the subject. He, however, attributed the pa. fleece of the people to other causes—to that firmness of character which they exhibited in the field, as the noble duke, himself a mo. dent and competent witness, had told them.—(hear, hear.) He also attributed it to another cause—the increase of common sense, which prevented them from being seduced by factious demagogues, and taught them to rely in every extremity upon parliament, in which the people were always sure to find some advo cates. They now knew that sedition was the surest means of con tinuing the evils from which they desired to be released. These causes of the patience of the people were not perhaps so flattering to the minister as the other one assigned ; but the augmented good sense and loyalty of the people were fully as consoling to the nation. This behaviour of the people deserved that the motion of inquiry into their distresses, made by the noble duke, should be acceded to.— Their lordships ought not to think themselves on an eminence placed above the sympathies of the people. In other countries they saw the splendid palace, fraught with every luxury, and beside it the miserable thatched cottage of the peasant ' like Lazarus at the gate of Dives—an unnatural centrist. In those countries there was no feeling of sympathy, no reciprocity of interest with the people. But in England there were greater masses of wealth than elsewhere, yet the wealth was more diffused than elsewhere. Every stranger must remark in this country, that although there might be distress, the stamp of misery did not appear upon any one class. The fact was, that all interests were united in this country ; for it was impossible that productive industry could long be affected in one department without communicating to the others. One advantage would be derived from the committee-- they would ascertain whether the misery which afflicted different classes sprung from one cause, or reflected by one upon the others. Ile hoped the suffering was not so deep-rooted as was supposed, and, at alt events, that the house would save the labouring classes from the degradation into which they were sinking. The great ob ject was to see to what degree, in the scale of comfort and happiness, the labouring classes had sunk. This would be one object of en quiry. The next would be the manufacturing interest; nor could they go on long without investigating into the financial system of the I country. The operation of the corn laws and poor rates, and, last of all and greatest of all, the currency, must also necessarily come within the scope of the enquiry. These multifarious topics would seem to promise an Interminable investigation ; but arrangements could be made to make reports from time to time to the house. He should not state what his opinions were upon these questions, because that would afford his opponents an opportunity of pressing upon the disunion of sentiment amongst the supporters of the motion. If noble lords were to go into such an inquiry with their minds pledged to pre-conceived opinions, as if they were principles from which it would be dishonour to depart, the inquiry would be worse than nothing. The object of all parties entering upon such an in vestigation should be to endeavour to discover an amendment for the evils under which the country was labouring. This cause would be much better than a mere blank denial of the existence of distress. The Earl of ELDON addressed the house, but was occasionally inaudible below the bar. He had voted for enquiry throughout the semdon, but it had been denied. The house he hoped would now make one struggle more. He knew not the meaning of the smile upon the noble duke's countenance—ft was perhaps e.r officio at the mention of this particular subject—(A laugh }- subject which filled all hearts with grief. He believed in his conscience that the bless ings which this .country enjoyed might be secured yet for many a generations by proper conduct on the part of the government. On a late occasion the objection to the motion was, that it was for an open committee ; now the objection was that it was for a select committee. He did not suppose that Parliament would give all the relief that was expected of it; but they should satisfy the people of their desire to relieve them. A few fine spring sunshiny mornings bad enabled the noble duke to find that the prespeels of the country had so much improved that he could afford to sellegnlsh 3,500,0001. or 5,000,0001. as it was expressed, of taxes. Hs hoped this the noble duke would allow him to express his confidence that as the weather improved, he would find still further resources fee the relief of the country. (A laugh.) He applauded the good disposition of the people under the pressure by which they were borne down. None but Englishmen could bear such pressure with se much patience, and that was because they knew their coma. Paden would sooner or later make them happy. He did not wish to alter the currency, but he should like to see a greater number of =notes in circulation. It was a curious fact that in Northum. the poor rates were only one and sixpence in the pound, while la the southern counties they were from seventeen to twenty two shillings. He attributed this to the circulation of Scotch notes, for he did not believe that a Scotch note could be made to stop in Scotland more than any other thing. (A laugh.) Nor did he believe that it could be got to go back more than any thing else that only once got out of that country. The noble earl enlarged upon the advantage of a attict union of feeling and interest between the parliament and the people. The nation had been represented as a pillar, the base of which was the mass of the population, the higher orders adorning the capital, and the monarch forming the apex. He hoped nothing would be done to alienate from the monarch the love of the people. The Earl of ROSEBERY declared his entire acquiescence in the motion made by the Noble Duke. With reference to the motion made the other night for an inquiry at the Bar of the House, he certainly had opposed it on the ground of inexpediency, believing that the topics would become too numerous. his sentiments had been misunderstood upon the subject of the silver currency. They had been told that Newton fixed the standard in gold ; but k should not be forgotten that be measured his gold standard by the value of silver. As to Northumberland, there was a prohibition against the Scotch notes circulating there. The secret if their peosierity was, that they did not pay their wages in poor rates. Emigration, he thought, ought to be one of the topics of inquiry by the Commit., tee, and particularly the effect of the influx of Irish paupers into this country. 1 The Marquis of CAMDEN opposed the motion. He was of opinion that the distress was not so general as it was attempted to stew. The expressions in the Speech which had been delivered from the Throne at the opening of the Session on this subject were: not in his opinion unjust. In the year 1822 he assured their Lord.: ships that he and many other Noble Lords were obliged to remit to their tenants a year's rent. Nothing of the kind was the case now as regarded his tenants, or others, as far as be could learn ; and be could not therefore believe the country was in the same state of de.' premien. lie knew it was considered to be very good sport to distress the Ministry. (A laugh.) It was to the wish to copy that sport that be attributed the determined asseverations of Noble Leeds on the subject of distress, and the successive motions they made to embody their opinions. As to the county meetings, they did not express the opinion of the people. They were called to back the opinions of members in parliament, not to collect the true sense of the people themselves. As he had already said, the object was to distress the administration ; and for that purpose he observed them were in that house a motley variety of parties. They hid now ultra benches and discontented benches, as well as CMGs beeches.—(a laugh.) lie hoped that noble lord s would not sanction a measure, from which they could anticipate no practical good. The Earl of WINCHILSEA gave, his cordial support to the motion of his Noble Friend, who was destined to reap as &min gulithed civic honours as the military laurels which emended his brow. The country was in the greatest distress, apicaltard as well as manufacturing. Could any one possessing one spark of feeling, humanity, or justice, refuse to inquire into the sonnies of that distress ? Could the House refuse upon the insufficient pound put forth by a Member of the Goveniment ' that they mum march into all the interests of the country, if they entered upon any investigation. Another Noble Lied spoke against to pear laws. If it were not for these, he W . /eyed the labourites people would be in a worse condition than they were. If adminis tered in their true spirit, they were theism code of laws ever named by the wisdom of man. No one would be better pleased than he so find the distress partial and temporary, but he assured the noble ad who had just spoken, that he would find the distress in the county of Kent greater than was ever known in the memory of men. H. was informed that the fiance, of Kent were paying no rent at aIL One man, who had paid none for seven "youv, came to his land lord the other day, and said, " There is some meoey, but if you take it, I shall have no seed to pat into your ground.' The freeholders, io his part of theveentry, were reduced tonneikaW of what they were six yeses ago, end half tho property of the remainder was now Mr sale. He wished be could concur with the melds earl, that the country felt confidence in the ministry. He mild not shut, his eyes and ears to what he had witnessed at the late county meeting. He bed as beesinateuinental in calling that meeting be wider to' back his %Anion 40 the aaneyaace of- the ministry. • He did sot blame them foe what was the result of many ?an nalemanarehent, not did he wish to maks their unenviable snowiest worse Chas 1e , was. He did not think the petitions of the people were treated with I that respect or attention in Parliament which they deserved. He supported the noble duke (Richmond), and had the most heartfelt satisfaction, as he believed all had, in seeing him restored to heath, Iso art to be gbh to take part in the btainese of the house. The Duke of BUCKINOHAHM declared his concurrence with the noble earl who had just sat down in the sentiments of gratifies. don he expressed at the recovery of the noble duke, on public as will as private grounds. He theaeht the proposed ingot wax too comprehensive. Had it been more limited in its object, should have been disposed to accede to it. He thought they ought to inquire pro ashen this investigation was now open government. If diere was distress now, it was not for t he lest a time. For 160 years they had been told of the approaching ruin of the country, and Sir John Sinclair, he believed it was, stated that they had been ruined two and twenty times. No one could doubt the motives of the noble duke, whose public and piens* character ware above isapeschasent ; but he shoultrbear. in mind the use that might be made of his name and authority for had purposes. It was impossible to say what was the cause of the distress of the country, which might flow from a variety of causes over which they had no power of controuL For instance, the butter they used to eat for their breakfast came for. Innerly ont Buckinghamshire and Essex ; by the rapid conveyance of steam it now came from France and Holland ; so that in this mi nute particular the interests of the country were suffering injury.— Theorecond object proposed by the motion was to inquire into the effect of taxes on productive labour. This would embrace a large field of inquiry. (Hear.) They must look at the proportion that I taxes bore to income, their effects on ex ports and imports. Dis. tress was noc confined to this country. It extended to other MUD. tries differently circumstanced. If the distress arose from taxation, why did it exist in Switzerland, where there was hardly any taxation —in America, where there were almost no taxes—in France, where the taxes were much lighter than here ? If the caws was _public debt, let them go to America, where there was no debt ; to France, where the debt was not great, and with a sinking fund to redeem it; to Switzerland, where there was no debt ; and then they would find distress. Was the cause tube found in the principles of free trade? He did not see them very extensively acted upon—but go to Denmark, to France, to Ocrinany, to America, to any part of the world, in which trade was restricted, and there also they would find the people labouring under distress. It was attributed to the re. striction of the currency by the withdrawal of the small paper. His opinion was that it arose more from want of confidence than from any deficiency of currency, and that want of confidence wax occasioned by the banking system as hitherto conducted. In the bubble year, 1825, not less than 165 banks broke, and out of these 160 paid 20s. in the pound; they paid in a metallic currency the debts contracted in a currency of paper, but that was not enough to keep up confidence. The distress arose from other causes also • from the breaking up of the commercial barriers established during the war ; from the opening of new markets; front bad seasons ; and partly, he would admit, from the return to cash payments. But whatever might be the causes of it, he never could believe that it was irremediable. There was even now a visible improvement. The manufacturers were getting employment. This motion was brought forward at such an extraordinary time, and supported by Such an extraordinary combination of parties--the Whigs with the True Blue Tories—that Ire must conclude the object was to turn out his noble and illustrious friend (the Duke of Wellington.) If his noble friend listened to their suggestions, he must do what would be injurious to the country and disgraceful to his government. The Marquis of SALISBURY said, he did not consider the motion of his noble friend as calling for such general inquiry ; and therefore he would support it. He took some pains to inquire into the state of the labouring poor in Hertfordshire, and found that there were six and a quarter per cent. of all the male population out of employment. It might be a fair average for the whole male po pulation of England to say that the proportion out of employment was three and a half per cent. or 170,000 able-bodied labourers, between the ages of fifteen and seventy. If this were the case, no strayer ground for inquiry could be brought before parliament. He would therefore support the motion. The Earl of WICKLOW said he should oppose the motion, as the object of it was to inquire into a new and temporary evil. He supported a Committee of Inquiry into the state of Ireland, because there the evil was of a permanent nature. One cause of the dis. tress was the peculiar circumstances of the late harvest. A reduc tion of rents must take place. The rents of late years could no longer be kept up. The Earl of RADNOR supported the motion, and referred to communications which he had from Manchester and other places, to prove the severity of the existing distress. The practice of paying wages partly out of the poor's rates, was most injurious, but he must deny that it was introduced originally for the purpose of de. frauding the manufacturing classes. The distress was general, and the consequences of it was a general cry for reform. He was a ra dical reformer himself ; but all those Noble Lords who did not wish for reform should vote for this motion, if it were only to prove to the people that Parliament, se now ostituted, was ready and will. ing r t h o e inquire into their grievances. Earl of ROSSLI N opposed the motion as too general. It embraced an inquiry into the state of the manufacturing classes, the agricultural classes, the effect of taxation on productive in dustry, the effect of each tax upon each branch of industry, the poor laws, and various other topics of such extent, that it was to tally impossible any committee could embrace them. Let the dis. tress be as general as it might be, could any benefit arise from such enquiry ? He :supposed the remedies proposed would be as vs-1 nous as the subjects. The noble earl (Stanhope) would no doubt =an unlimited issue of paper. Another noble lord (Lord vine) would propose a silver standard, which could not be done without a depreciation of ten per cent. and then they would soon be met again with the cry of " filthy rags." Another noble lord would propose a restrictive commercial system, and a return to the formed corn laws. _______ • The Earl of ROSEBERV rose to explain. The Earl of IiOSLYN said he did not allude to him, but to the Noble Marquis of Lansdowne. The Noble Marquis recom mended a silver currency of 66 shillings to the pound of silver. This might afford relief, but it would be one of as fraudulent a nature as any previous alteration of the currency. It would be better at once that the country should declare itself like other bankrupts, unable to pay, and cheat its creditor. of a curtain sum. Besides all this, the Committee was to inquire into a commutation of tithes ; and a noble Lord suggested also, that from its labours Gentlemen might de rive great advantage in the management of their estates. His belief was, that the distress arose front the uncertain and fluctuating state in which the country was placed for some time back with res pect to currency, trade, the corn laws, the alterations proposed or suggested in almost every thing affecting the public interests. By these means a spirit of speculation, and an apprehension of change was introduced, which bad done great mischief. Much evil was occasioned by the breach of confidence between the bankers and the farmers. The great advantage of Scotland was, that this confidence had never been interrupted, because the system of banking there was founded on a solid basis. He might also remark, that the corn laws were not long enough in operation to produce confidence on the pan of the agriculturist, and.' sense of security was necessary to carry on his operations snecessfully. If the motion were,agreed to, it would only excite hope, and set the minds of all afloat on speculation. Ile must look upon the motion as intended to convey disapprobation of the government. If there were any charges against ministers, it would be better to state them openly. There were many circum stances which indicated that the distress could not be so great as it was represented. The consumption of tea and coffee increased, and there was but a very slight diminution in that of sugar. There was an increase also in the consumption of British spirits. The export of cotton goods had encreased. This might be no great proof of prosperity, but the 'oncost could not have been produced without giving menses of employment. When people talked of the hum tion of Irish labourers, be must observe that he could allow no dif ference between English and blade labourer, and he should never listen to any proposition for making an invidious distinction. Did not the very persons who complained of this irruption take advan. tage alit ; did not the farmer benefit by it? (•• No, " from a Noble Lord.) Then why hire them ? Because their labo ur was cheaper, and these were many parts of the country in which the harvest could not be got in without them. Others complained of the great import of Irish produce ; he rejoiced at it, for it was a proof of the improve. meat of that country. The Earl of CARNARVON was induced to attribute sense part of the distress se the withdrawal of the small notes. lie sold their Lordships in Htle, when the question of currency was agitated. that if they contracted the issue in the way then contemplated, that great and serious evils would follow. He then said if their Lord ships passed that measure, that it would cause millions of paupers. especially ameog the agricultural classes. He might be, however. mistaken in the masa of she present unparalleled disavow, by attributing a pardon of it to lbw alteration in the currency. Me thought that cite greatest boon which could be conferred by Parlia ment, would be to umballats the currency on the basis of that which existed in the cluttered basks of Scotland. Ile thought that the Inquiry sought by the prams motion ought to be granted. He dieldd, therefore, give eloomootiaa his support, not with a view, he could assure the noble duke at the bead of his Majesty's government, embarrassing his adoideuadeN but from a rim belief that brae-' ficklaaulta would low bear its Migglon. Lord GOWER omidewed the aunty would be beneaued by the rodoadoo of taxation whiiik bad bees recendy armoaatal..sevartlie. Iwo, be thought it Ed& be carried tardier without esdoagering the honour and safety of the enustry. He was permuded drat no Mi shits: was better ededetediesdhrce sty inseam then the table duke at the bead Olds 3 bed he peuesaid the costumes oldie toottry. fa V leneE li rZed . 4, be had the Irma belief duit else isi.poihlea 10 Motion of tits , noble duke was to lighter*, Modem ebb* pant ed the esenuettnity. as much all i he peed* sail. lievitexpround these ereadens. he begged in say that be aboul4 ewes dee mann %tete thlibeese. Did DARNLEY le* in IMidarede tee dens' tx the vote he , should give, he tifiould suet ben a kw etteenente on their Lord-' ships' time. Re never roe with more *All feelings than on the present occasion. The noble duke who had proposed the formation of a committee, bad drawn such pictures of misery, and other noble lads who had followed in the debate had likewise added to those wretched scenes the distressing objects which they bad witnessed, that if he felt persuaded any relief could possitly arise from the investigation, Hon forbi d that he should stied in the way of the motion. If the noble duke could point out any means of alleviating the distress which had been described, he (Earl Darnley) would give him his vote. But to go into a committee, and examine every scheme which would be brought forward with a view of benefltting the parties whom it was i intended to benefit, he was fully persuaded that if the motion were carried, it would only end in disappointment. Under these circum stances, such being the impression of :his own mind, he could not assent to the proposition of the noble duke. He would not now take up the time of the house by stating his own views with respect eltber to the cause of the distress, or its extent, but he must be permitted to say that he did not believe the distress was either se great or so general as many noble lords imagined. His conviction on this sub. ject was, that the distress, although pressing, which he mast admit, was not so general, nor of so desperate a nature as many believed. Lord HOLLAND was surprised that the noble earl who had last addressed their lordships should have expressed himself unfavour. able to the motion, because, when the noble earl, a few days ago, spoke on the subject of the poor of Ireland, he took credit to him. self for having proposed a committee on that subject—which had not been adopted by their lordships ; but that the other house of parliament had now acceded to the formation of a committee, hay. log a similar object in view. (Hear.) He (Lord Holland) was also surprised at the course taken by the noble lord opposite, the Privy Seal (the Earl of Rosalyn), who had described the consequences as being frightful, should their lordships con. sent to go into a Committee. If he (Lord Holland) were not mis taken, t her e had been actually within the last few days, a Commit. tee agreed to for the poor of Ireland. The Noble Earl (Lord Darn. ley) had always se n n , against an distinction between the people of Ireland and land.—(Hear. But it would seem that them wu to be a distin and the oble Earl countenanced it.--(A laugh.)—He (Lord Holland) was desirous of seeing Parliament tile its rights. If measures were to be adopted for the benefit of the people, be liked to see them done by the Parliament.— He was not a radical reformer, like his friend below him (the Earl of Radnor), who had manfully avowed himself as such, and who had, with an acuteness peculiarly his own, advanced arguments favouring his views. He (Lord Holland) had been however, charged by some persons with at least a taint of reform about him. He had never advanced arguments which might be construed as favouring that doctrine, so powerful as had been ad. veined that night, even by noble lords opposite, high in office. The arguments of those noble lords was, that parliament could do no thing—for they urged that no go od could be done by the appoint. ment of a committee. Why, was not this putting aside the forms of Parliament, and, in fact, advocating radical reforms The arguments of those noble lords went to the abrogation of Parliamentary forms and proceedin g s. He was anxious to see the true constitu tional mode practised—that of addressing the two Hou.es of Par. 'Lament. The reason why he voted against the motion of the Noble Earl below him (Earl Stanhope) was, that he:conceived the motion too general : the objects likely to be three introduced were of too multifarious a description. He believed that the Crown had been lately addressed for the purpose of effecting a reform of Parliament and, on some occasions, the Noble Duke at :he head of Adminis. tration had been appealed to to redress some grievances. (Hear.) These were bad signs of the times, which It was the duty of the House to correct. The Noble L ord, in conclusion, signified his intention of voting in favour of the motion. Lord ELLENBOROUOH (who entered the house at an eatly period of the debate) concurred in what had fallen from the noble baron, that whatever could be done for the benefit of the community ought to be done by parliament. The noble baron, however, could not impute, with justice, to his Majesty's government any intention of withholding from the people benefits which they could confer. Ministers bad invariably shown a wish to alleviate the burdens of the people, and they had never shrunk from the responsibility which attached to them. The objection which his Majesty's ministers entertained to the motion of the noble duke was. that they did not conceive any good would result were the com mittee to be appointed. The noble baron could not charge the government with a want of sympathy. His majesty's ministers possessed as much sympathy for the sufetings of the people as the noble baron himselt.—(hear, hear.) The noble lord had pro ceeded to describe the labours of a committee. After which he said he never knew a committee probe a subject to the bottom ; he never knew an instance which was thorougly investigated by one, unless he excepted a committee where opinions were can. valved of which the noble Baron was a member. That investi. gation was certainly conducted by the noble baron with a degree of ingenuity and success seldom witnessed (but probably not with much advantage to the country)—he meant with respect to the Athanasian Creed. (A laugh.) If the committee were acceded to. in all probability there would be a variety of topics introduced, each noble lord would have a favourite subject to investigate. Within the last nine months a number of committees had been formed, the subjects of which might, with propriety, be introduced into the labours of the committee moved for by the noble duke. With their lordships' pennhaion be would read some elite titles of those corn. mittees. They were on the following subjects : Agricultural distress, foreign trade,the post laws,the game laws,exportation of machinery. emigration, parochial settlements, parish vestries, Irish vagrants, and other importantsabjects. A committee like that moved for was likely to embraces° many subjectsthat no end would be found to itslabours. The witnesses to be examined would be numerous. Them would be the writers of all the pamphlets on the topics included in the in. Tay. He had a list of topics upon which pamphlets had been written, connected with the subject. There were lb writers who had issued pamphlets on the corn laws; seven on the currency ques tion ; and others equally numerous who had exercised their pens on subjects which might be supposed to bear upon the labours of the committee. The appointment of such a committee as that sought to he established, he was fully persuaded could not be attended with benefit, but on the contrary ; and therefore he could never assent to the motion. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE could not forbear troubling the house, after the speech of the nettle baron who had just sat down, with a few observations why he gave his support to the motion. The argtunents of that noble baron were against the prac tice of parliament. He had denounced the formation of the Com. mattes of that house. (hear. hear.) His line of argument was decidedly in favour of radical reform. (hear, hear.) What would the people of Manchester, and of Binningluun. who were suffering to the extent they had heard described, think, it their Lordships should refuse an inquit into the condition of the working classes ? AVhilst he (the Marquis of Lansdowne) had the honour of a seat among their lordships while he existed—he would adhere to the forms of the house. (Hear. hear.) If their lordships abandoned the interests of the people—if they attended not to their complaints--what would be the effect' not such as had been contemplated by the noble baron, but the consequences would be of the must serious description, decoke tire of the Constitution itself. The arguments of the noble earl (Privy Seal) had somewhat surprised him. This was a new theory of committees, as well as that of the noble baron. The grounds upon which he (Lord L.) had opposed the motion of his noble friend near hint (Earl Stanhope) on a former night were Moe —that the motion was of toogeneral a nature. The motion, however, now submitted to their lordships was not liable to that objectior, and therefore be should give it his cordial support. The motion was for a specific inquiry—it had a specific object. On the et:talon to which he had alluded, he had declared that, if any noble Lord brought forward a specific motion on the subject, he would give it his support ; and he now redeemed his pledge. being perfectiv satisfied, from the manly character of the Noble Duke alto had brought tontrard the prevent motion (cheers) that nothing was intend ed by it more than the words of the motion expressed r—there was ootbing kept secret—nothing lurking behind the terms themselves la addition to these reasons, he thought the present a good time to game the inquiry, for no party feelings prevailed in the House. The Noble Lord who spoke last had stated that the object should be to produce stability. What ! stability to the pre sent condition of the poor! Could any titan wish fur it? A more unnatural condition had never existed than that between the poor and their employers at the pros nt moment. The noble mar quis then quoted a statement of the condition of several parishes in Oloucestetshire which described 20 out of 24 as containing one-third more labourers than the land required. Out of that superobut.dancv the middle-aged and married men, who must be relieved, were em ployed at low wage, the test being made up out of the poot noes, while the youngest and ablest were not employed at all. and thus systetnatically driven out of the parish. (HW, hear, hear). Ile knew that these circumstances might be accounted fee is fumy ways; but this tarnished an additional reason for going into a committee. Another point to occupy the attention of the Canaan*: was the necessity of adopting some alteration is the law of settlement to prevent it from operating to deter persons from making establishments. The influence of taxation upon the productive indutory of the country called also fee itiveofigation.... These was use article, in particular. to which he should allude in illustration of this panto* the subject, and that was the article of sea borne coals. It could hardly be disputed but that it was for the advantage of the matey that fie) should be equally diffused. That, however, was not the case. It was the pa ductiaa at mom counties ; and this partiality of redoubt!. instead of being remedied or mitigated, was aggravated by the state of the law. The manifest tepdency of all mob laws was to prevent the,growth of manufactures, mad in that way to disatrumg e the productive tmlusay of the eountry.—(liass.}. lie did not complain of whet the (40WCTSUU0Di had already done - with respect to the reduction of. toes. On the euotrary, he admit ted that they were judicious as. far as they we nt, but reduction might set to mop titers. Many rases would admit of Willi re-