Star. — London, England, 1830-04-30 00:00:00

owe uut the losses in a pteenni.) point of view, but the demoralising um /aqueous of imprisonmeht. The law, in his opinion, ought to be re-enacted for a short period, until a committee should have time to take all the subject into consideration, and until that committee had reported no alteration to be made. In his opinion, the mote unbearable thi- law the better, hicause a thorough change must be the consequence. Wilt regard to the amount for which a debtor en uld be wrested, he wished to state to the house that the city *Pitch lie represented was in the utmost alarm at the proposition of raising the stem from 201. to 1001. because they thought that a rutocaary jurisdiction was absolutely necessary for pt otectieg their :•,te rests. Pie. D. W. HARVEY hoped that the consent of the Attorney (General for the appointment of a (ommittie would not be disre n atied. and that the whole law, as regarded debtor and creditor, *scold be fully examined. He also agreed with the lion. member i i Bristol, that it would be proper to re-enact the present law for a a mit period, and merely until a Committee should have taken the itebject into consideration. What the ceuntry chiefly wanted was a LiVIAto protect the honest trader, and punish the dishonest debtor.— The present Insolvent Act gave no encouragement to honesty, but tield out a sort of protection to the fraudulent dealer. It had been stated that the amount, within a few years. for which debtors had re:grounded with their creditors, was eleven millions; but it ought to se recollected. that the names of creditors wore often sent down inert four and five times over, and the debts of the insolvent constr. gamily greatly augmented. He could see no reason why the same /tile should not apply to insolvents as well as to bankrupts, as an encouragement to make every exertion to pay as much as possible. la the case of a bankrupt, where he pays ills., 12s. Gel., or lbs. lid., in ;he pound, lie obtai etl certain facilities which could he withheld from one who did not pay lOs in the pound. Why should not some each law be made to apply to insolvents, instead of committing them to prison, which sent them cut of the world with a beggared repute ..ion, and mortgaged all their prospects on this side the grave ? He though: that the Legislature ought to be cautious benne it de prived the creditors of the country of the law of arrest, without mak. ing any other provision for their security. lle considered that the moment a man was unable to pay 20s. in the pound be was but the trustee. of his creditors ; and some mode ought to be adopted to compel hint to assign his effects to them. A Committee up waits would be the best mode of discussing and settling the subject ; but, as the season was too far advanced to expect that good could be done this year, lie hoped his 1 1 / a jesty's Law Officers would take the subject into their consideration ; and, if they brought in a law this Session, that they would limit it its duration to the space of ore year. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL begged to he understood that be had no objection to a select committee on the subject, and he thought that an ultimate decision, without the investigation of a committee, should be avoided. There was no doubt but that the • house had humanity enough to protect the debtors of the country ; but he found, in the natural comae of things, that the creditors were better and more generally represented. He hcpcd that the question would be set at rest on just and equitable grounds ; but he deemed that to give a power to the debtor of making a voluntary bankruptcy would be one of the most dangerous experiments on that credit which was so essential to the mercantile property of the country. lie could not agree with the proposition of the honourable member for Colchester (Ir. Harvey), that the moment a man .cased to have 20s. in the pound he became a trustee to his estate for his creditors. Such an opinion, if acted upon by the Legisla. ture, would tend to break up society faster than almost any other enactment that could he made. The whole experience of a free and and trading country showed that the men who were one day op pressed with difficulty were in the next prosperous and thriving merchants. It would sap the very foundations of industry, and put a stop to every thing like pains-taking and systematic exertion.— hear.) Ile had only to refer to the well known numbet e.if men who had pushed their way from a state of debt to a state of affluence, to convince the house of the impolicy of acting on such a theory. Indeed, if a man, who was publicly and notoriously involved, and who was seen spending perhaps in prison the property of his credi tors refused to submit. some law was necessary to compel him to divide his remaining effects. He could not at that time go into the various topics connected with the subject which pressed on his at. tension, but content himself with again declaring that lie had no objection to have the measure investigated before a committee of the house. Mr. HUME said he heard with much pleasure the learned Soli citor-General admit the necessity of a committee. In his opinion, the abolition of the law of arrest was necessary, but with it some • means should be devised for der speedy and economical recovery of debts. If the latter point was neglected, the feelings of a large por. tion of the community, who fancied they had a security in the law of arrest, would be violated. Two years ago he had submitted two bills to the house, one fur the abolition of ariest, and the other for the more effectual recovery of debts, but he could not induce the house to adopt them. He had been induced to do so from a con. viction of their necessity ; and after consulting a variety of solicitors and tradesmen, who appeared to have no objection to the removal of the arrest, provided they were protected by the other remedy. lie was glad to find that his principles had, at length, found favor, and he hoped that his majesty's law officers and ministers, who were paid by the public for doing their duty, would take upon themselves to work their bills, as they had declined consenting to their being brought forward by others. lie had heard the observations of the Solicitor-General with a degree of pleasure, and he hoped the hon. and learned gentleman would not allow the subject to drop. He wished further to suggest, that there were were many provisions in the Scotch law of debtor and creditor which might with great ad vantage be here introduced, particularly that clause which gave the majority of creditors a right to discharge the debtor from further liability. Mr. O'CONNELL complained of the great delay which existed in the recovery of debts by means of fictitious modes of postpone ment, and he thought that all these shifts should be put an end to. He could not understand why, in plain and simple cases, an immediate judgment could not be had ; and, in the case of a pro. tested bill of exchange, he submitted that an instant summons to ap. peat before a Judge should be issued, and that, in default of sufficient cause being shown, an execution should at once follow. He also complained of the anomalous state of the bankrupt law in England and Ireland. Thought there was a Union, and though it was protessed to be a legislative union between these countries, the bankrupt law was dissimilar. The whole system of arrest for debt was monstrous ; and he could not conceive how the legis lature could have sanctioned an act by which any man that pleased had the power, by his affidavit, to throw another into gaol to 60,0001, or 1.14,0001, or 100,0001. Ile would again repeat the case which was within his own knowledge, where a gentleman was arrested fur 6d,0001. by a person whom he never saw, and with whom he never had a transaction. lie did not see what good could be done in a committee. The subject was open and plain ; and, if the law officers of the crown took the matter in band, they had the means of effectually putting it at rest. Mr. DOHERTY was astonished that, on the presentation of this petition, any allusion should have been made to the legislative union between England and Ireland. He had only to assure the honourable and learned member for Clare that he would be ready to meet him on the subject whenever he thought proper to bring it fully and fairly before the House. Mr. BARING said that no country had altogether abandoned the law of arrest, and he feared it would be impracticable to do so here. Indeed there were so many shades of distinction between the honest and dishonest debtor, that he almost despaired of attaining any le. gialative measure by which the practice of arrest could be dispensed with. In the course of his experience he found that the great ma jority of creditors did not press heavily or unjustly on their debtors, and be believed in bankrupt cases there was an extraordinary degree of laxity. The petition was then brought up, and, on the question that it be prinfed, Mr. O'CONNELL rose to explain that, when he spoke of the le gitlatiee union between England and Ireland, he merely alluded to the state of the bankrupt law in both countries. He bad no idea of opening the question generally, but lie had in view the fact that a late law had repealed a section of the Irish Act, while there was a clause at the close of the new Bill, by which it was provided that no part of the Irish Act should be repealed. It was now a question how the law stood in Ireland until, he supposed, it would be de termined at the expense of some bankrupt's estate. lie had only to say, if a remedy were not provided before next Session, by thus whose duty it was to attend to the state of the Irish law, Ise would, humble as he was, attempt to introduce one. He assured the house in his allusion to the legislative union he had no intention of discussing that subject, and lie bad no idea of debating in part, as It was his intention to wait until he brought it forward in a re gular manner, if be thought fit to do so, and which would at least not be within the present session. Mr. DOHERTY explained that the clause in the English act was bow undergoing an alteration, and until that was decided he ab-' stained from correcting the error in the Irish act, which had not moped attention. The petition was then ordered to be printed. THE law& The SOLICITOR-GENERAL presented a petition front Louis Levi, a person of the Jewish persuasion, praying that members of his communion should be allowed to purchase and enjoy real pro. peaty in this canny. He knew nothing of the petitioner person. ally, but he erstood him to be a respectable man, and he felt i d himself bon tlo present his petition, and also to state that he cons caned with in thinking that the subject should be set at rest by a dyclarniery law. He also wished to state that the gentleman did not diiiire the elective franchise, nor the right of sitting in the House of Commosik; and he represented that those of his persuasion, with whom he had spoken, were of the same opinion. Mr. C. YIIIIOUSSON said, in answer to the declaration of the petitioner, bs could, on his own knowledge inform the House that the great body of the Jewish persuasion were of a different opinion, mid they Inked confidently to the Legislature for the same nmosare of justice which had been extended to all classes of his Majesty's subjects who had dissented from the Church of England.—(hear.) The SOLICITOR-GENERAL begged it to be understood that he was only expressing the sentiments of the petitioner, whose feel ings on the subject of tate petition he though: libitsvir bound to lay before the house. The subject then dropped. Captain BRADSHAW presented a petition araini the Sale of Beer Bill, froni the innkeepers of Runcorn. Mr. S. Hll E pre,; rated a petition from tliti S..s: ions Grand in favour of tht Galway Franchise Bill. IRISH NERSTAPERS. Mr. S. RICE rote to move for an account of the amount of stamp and advertisement duties for newspapers it: irelavd. In moving for this, he put It to the Chancellor of ins Exchequer, before he filially made up his mind with c..,pect to the duties intended to be haptesed upon newspapers, to consider the effect they wz•tld have upon the press in Ireland. In opposing them, ins . e.ed of a diminution of the revenue, he • contended for an incretes.“ liteau.e if ale additional duty were impond, it would not only reduce, but c•:tinguish the press in Ireland, and take away from a class tiw rnerws of their existence. Mr. O'CONNELL was intrusted with several petitions on the subject, and if the right hon. gentleman had nut been misinformed, he was sure that the Ora of increasing the duty could not be enter. tabled. The measure was calculated, if not intended, to annihilate the press. Witlin a few years the daty had die:Wished from 23.1001. to 14,(:0:11. which was about ovie-half. As tespeend re venue, therefore. it vas impolitic; and if it were wished to tenni- Hate the public expression, there welt other tu.anii, as recent ex perience had bliown, of suppressing tho expression of the public opinion in that country. Sir JOHN NEWPORT wished the Chancellor of the Excite que: to bear in mind, that the race that had been run of augmenta tion of taxation it Ireland had so drained that country, that in the )car 1816 the Irish treasury became bani,rupt. Then a system of reducing taxation was commenced that had been found productive; but it appeared t: r.t the old plan was now about to be revived, and in a tew years the balm harvest would be reaped. Several years ago he }mil stated his conviction to the then Chancellor of the Exchequer that the harvest of revenue he sought would end in nothing but debt. Ile then proposed a reduction of taxation, and what he. said was aft,rwards verified. \riffle the ditty upon spirits was ers. Gd. a gallon, the revenue.emounted io taw 0001. Now it was but 2.i. and in the last year the revenue amounted to 1,400,0001. If any one thing could he more obnoxious than another to the people of Ireland, it wit , the suppression of the public pass; and if the Chan. cellos of the I.xchequer intended that, by the imposition of an aug. minted duty, he could have plenty of dila, hut no revenue, his conviction was, that tie more the expression of public opinion was promulgated, aid tilt more the poser of publicity was increased, the grcatzr would be the benefit to the people at large, and the less would be the power of any partial representations to cause an injn riotts effect. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUEP. : - aitl that, as no. rice had be;n given for a particular thy to consider tic rubjcct, he was unwilling thus incidentally to enter into a debate on a r.ub ject which would give ‘.mple scope for discussion. He would not, in short, be responsible for thus interfering with the regular coin w, and it was a mode of proceeding to which he was not at all partiaL The retmos wen then ordered. I'ENSIONS. Mr. MONCK moved fora return of allow-me:s and pensions to the widows of officvrs connected with the civil and military depart. wells of the Arwy, Navy, and Ordnance, in 1792 and 11129. Orde re d. Ale. Alderman TIIOMPSON presented a petition from the wholesale a:AI retail immunizers, against the Bill for abolkl.h.g kr. rests on ine..ne proc.s.4 for :quits under 1001. He also presented a petition from Appleby, praying the abolition of titath fur 11)1.i:try. BALI: OF BEER BILL. lUr. DAVENPORT --- presCtitcYPetiCh;;;:from Lynn, Appleton Hall, &c. Chester. against the beer trade bill. Lord STANLEY presented petitions from lice:lntl victuallers of Wigan and Warrington, against the beer bill. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that the object of the present bill was to enable any person to take out a 11. cense to sell beer, but it did not contemplate any alteration of the law as regarded the preservation of good order in such houses— neither did it contemplate any alteration of the law for the regu lation of the sale of wine nd spirits. The petition WAS then ordered to be laid on the table. Lend STANLEY insect' for a return of the amount of duty on stamps and adv:rtiscmerts on newspapers published hi England fur the last twenty years—Agreed to. Mr. BY NO presented a petition from Uxbridge, praying for the abolition of the punishment of death for forgery. Mr. O'CONNELL gave notice, that it was not his intention to allow any Irish business brought on after twelve o'clock at night. Mr. O'CONNELL presented a petition from the letter-press printers of Dublin, aguinst the assimilation of stamps in Ireland, with those in England, which c ou ld no t f a il t o ruin the newspapers of Ireland.—Ordered to be printed. Mr. O'CONNELL presented a petition from the merchants, traders, mechanics, and others, of the town of Galway, praying that the Galway Franchise Bill might pass into a law. Mr. HUM E said, he thought that putting the seal of the corpora. don to a petition to that house should be Inquired into, as a breach of the privileges of that house. Mr. NORTH said, that there could have been no intention of fraud, upon the part of the Mayor of Galway, who, doubtless, sup. posed he had authority for what he had done. Sir JOHN NEWPORT thought that the circumstance ought to be inquired into, for it was not the brat time that such a proceed. ing had taken place. Mr O'CONNELL thought the fraud was not to be presumed, and be admitted the respectability of the Mayor, who had signed the petition, but still 'expectable people did strange things as mem. bets of Corporations. Ile should, on a future day, move for a Se lect Committee upon the subject. Mr. O'CONNELL presented several petitions front places in Ire. land against the Vestry System in that country, and stated he should move for a Select Committee on the Vestry System of Ireland. Mr. DOOHERTY begged leave to ask the honourable member for Clare when he intended to present the petition reflecting upon hint (Mr. Dogherty), which he had announced that he would bring before the house. Mr. O'CONNELL said, the facts of the case were not yet suf. ficiently before him to induce him to present the petition, and he would not bring it forward until he was sufficiently in possestion of them ; nor even then, if he thought the result of his inquiries in. sufficient to support the charge made in the petition. He had never given any pledge to bring the matter before the house; he had oulytransmitted copies of the petition relative to the Borriso. kane trials, to the secretary for Ireland, stating that in the absence of the hon. and learned gentleman, he should not present them if the noble secretary thought them of importance. Mr. DOG HERTY said, that at a meeting in Ireland, unless the newspapers grossly misrepresented the hon. and learned gentleman, he had pledged himselt to make his (Mr. Dogherty's) conduct the subject of investigation at the bar of the house. Under these tit. cumstances, the hon. member ought to afford him the opportunity of clearing his character from imputation. Mr. H(JME spoke to ordvr. Mr. O'CONNELL said he did not know what the newspapen might have said ; but if the facts, as stated to him, were correct, he should feel it his duty to act upon them, and present the petition ; but at present he had not such evidence as would warrant him to do so. Sir C. WETHERELL said, he did not think the character of the hon. and learned gentleman (Mr. Dogherty) should thus be kept afloat. If the hon member for Clue had a case to produce, let him produce it ; if not, let him say so at once. (Hear, hear.) it was most unfair thus to substitute insinuation for accusation, and it was his duty as a lawyer, as a member of parliament, and as a gentle. man, to adopt one COUTIIe or the other. Mr. O'CONNELL said the speech of the hon. member who had just sat down was the mo s t extr a ordi nar y h e h a d ever h ear d. H e had never uttered one word in that house as to the nature of the petitions, either directly or indirectly. He thought he had adopted the most prudent and cautious course in acting as he had done. lie appealed, therefore, to the Speaker, if the hon. gentleman was in order in thus questioning him upon matters which he had never alluded to in that house. The SPEAKER decided, that though not strictly in order the convenience of business, as well as the course of practice in that house, warranted the asking of questions upon particular occasions. Mr. DOGHERTV next asked if it was the intention of the hon. member for Clare to bring his conduct before the house relative to the trials at Cork. Ile stated that he would drag him to the bar of the house to answer for his conduct, and now he wished to ask the hon. member whether it was his intention to do so, and if so, at `what time ? Mr. O'CONNELL said it was his intention to proceed as soon as he should have obtained the necessary documents by order of the house. His object was to inquire how far a counsel was warranted in having documents in his pocket proving a witnes s f or th e Crown to be perjured, and yet proceeding upon his testimony to obtain a conviction. He could not have moved for the papers until after the dose of the last Cork Assizes Mr. NORTH said that the hon. member for Clare was pursuing a most extraordinary course, and he put it to the hon. member whe ther he had not better review his course, and withdraw his pro posed Motion. Lord MILTON here rose to order, and the matter dropped. Lord JOHN RUSSELL presented a petition from the inhabi tants of Bandon,complaining of the distress under which they wens suffering. PAIILIAMENTARE REFORM. Lord J. RUSSELL gave notice of an alteration of his motion for the 6th of May, relative to parliamentary reform. Instead of the course which he had previously proposed to pursue, he should move for a committee of the whole house upon the subject. LAW REFORM M rose, pursuant to notice, to bring before the house the subject of reform in the law. In again calling theatten don of the house to the subject lie had not, he said, the slightest fault to find with the commissioners who had made the two re ports which were on the table. They bad conducted their i nqu iries with the skill and great ability, so that they had received the nrctise ,, m at lerihe the most ur.qualified upprebao..n. They had laid le fore the house a mass of the moat valuable lefor 'ration, and it could not, therefore, be supposed that he WAS actuated by any hostility to them in bringing forward his present motion, which related prireipally to those topics they hail left untouched, and to which there wes n., ptcbebility that their attention would be directed within any re:eon:tide time. If there was a country in exist.. tote where it was necessary to spend GUI. or 701. for the recovery of 01. or 71; and if there was, besides, a great deal of tim:it:linty. and of Course anxiety, as to the result. no one could imagine titatsuch a country was very fortunate in its laws.lf e in addition to this,he should, after recovering then'. or 71. find that the la ws °alai toll yellow him 401. or 501. out of his 601 or 701. so that he would even after a verdict 11 1 his favour, fi nd himself a loser of 151. ; surely it would be sa id, that such a c mode was in a state of barbarity ; and yet that coun try was England, in which they were then residing. Ile had asked the prothonotary of Lancaster for returns of the amount of verdicts at one aseizes, from which the average of actions appeared to be for about 131. or 141. The number of actions brought in Westminster thaing five years, averages at about 79.1100, out of which only about 7,000 were brought to trial, the plaintiffs, in most of the others, abandoning their debts on account of the expenses. ( hut of an average of 93,000 affidavits of debt, for a period of two years and a half, about 64,000 were for debts tinder twenty pounds.- Of the whole eumber, no less than five-sixths were for debts under 1001. The Commiseioners had given bills of costs, which were said to be framed on the lowest possible scale, and in one of the cases every thing was fat ourable for cheapness anti expedition. The costa in that rase up to the verdict was 861. and the total costs 1101. For delay there was to be deducted only 101. leaving the actual ants at 1001. He admitted that a great portion of the expense was owing to the attendance of witnesses, for it was a cause brought from Lancaster to Lotalea. But it would have been the sante had it been tried in Lam:ester. When taxing the bill, two guineas a-day was allowed to the architect 15s. a.day to the carpenter ; and 5, a-day to the labourers. 'l'lie attorneys were allowed two guineas a-day, if they had only one cause at an assize, and one guinea a-day if they had more than one. This system he had to complain of us being a moat unnecessary expenditure. In some cases he had known a third, and in one he had known half (:'(M01. out of 4e91.) of a hill of costs taxed off, so that the plaintiff had ac tually lost riool. under the name of extra costs, which was a loss to that extent by his action, unless the debt amounted to a greater sum. In one case he knew of an action brought for VAIL which was undefended. He recovered-the costs came to 15111.-Upon taxation he was allowed only 1001. so that by his verdict be had gained nothing but about two years' anxiety and vexation. -He was aware that all persons who propounded remedies had difficulties to Contend with, for they were always regarded as innovators, and their recommendations were looked at with jealousy. It was N ith diffidence, therefore, that he offered a remedy, but still he :thou'd state that which appeared to him to be tolerably fres tiont objection. '1 he distance to which suits were carried to be tried was a great evil, though that of itself was not the great cause of expense. The cause cannot he tried until the judge comcs,which was only once in baffle year, at which time tine plaintiff must not only go there him self, but he must also send air ,[gents, his attorney, and his witnesses, and must also consult with his law advisers, and perhaps have to keep them there until the very close of the assizes. One part of the remedy proposed was to alter the niode of issuing process, and the other to shorten the period of bringing a cause to trial, lie would allow dent:nerds to be proved without carrying down the sub scribing witnesses to them. The system of pleading might be materially improved by attending to the ingenious suggestions of the commiesioners upon the subject. The great evil, however, was confined to actives of small amount. There was no reason why actions of large amount should not be conducted at a less expense; but the crying evil was, that such enormous ex penses should attend debts front ten pounds to fifty pounds. Formerly the county court decided actions prior to the time when the judges first took their half-yearly citcuits. By the Saxon law, it was laid down that every man should seek justice at home, anti that he should not seek redress from the king until it had been that applied for at his native County Court, and had been there refused to him. The Sheriff's Court, however, got gradually into disrepute, and it was at length confined to a very narrow circuit. Subsequently a law was passed, assigning to the Sheriff's Court ex clusive jurisdiction in all suits for sums under forty shillings, but this by no means deprived them of the power to entertain suits for sums of airy magnitude. Practically speaking, the County Courts have only jurisdiction in pleas of debt to the amount of forty shillings. This was the constitution of those courts in England ; but he would call the attention of the House to the constitution of such courts in Scotland. Our oldest law, and the oldest law of Scotland, were nearly the same; and the ancient constitution of the County Courts was nearly the same also. Originally the jurisdiction of our County Courts was unlimited, and the same au the case with the Sheriff's Court in Scotland. The Sheriff's Courts' in that country became hereditary in particular families, and were sometimes transferred with the estates. This system of hereditary Judges became intolerable, and in the year 1746, the whole right was purchased by the Crown, by which the King became Sheriff for the whole of Scotland, and appointed Sheriff's depute forcach county.-_A most important alteration. The system was found to work.well. The Sheriffs Court was competent to decide on all actions for debt to any amount, and in almost all cases, for damages. It appeared, that in the years 1821, 22, and 23, twenty-two thousand add hun dred actions were brought in the Sheriffs' Courts annually on an average, all being causes above 51. Were there similar Courts in England, there would probably be six times the number of ac tions brought and decided, which would greatly exceed the pre sent number. About 9,000 actions annually in the Sheriffs' Courts in Scotland were litigated to judgment ; and about 53 annually of , these decisions were appealed from. The other causes were settled by the parties. It appeared that five hundred thousand pounds worth of property was disposed of annually in those Courts; and if we had such Courts in England there would be six times that amount, or 3,000,0001. so adjusted. He did not ask them to adopt those Courts because it was the practice of Scotland merely; but because it was anciently their own practice, and had been found to work well in Scotland. In those Cutlets when the sum sued for was not above 121. the costs, if not litigated, was but ten shillings ; fora debt of 501. fifteen shillings; and fur a 11101 twenty shillings. When litigated, the cost of a debt of 121. was 51 ss. and the taxed costs 51. leaving the party but five shillings out of pocket ; and even in cases of 1001. the costs were not more than 121. and the party was not more than twenty shillings out of pocket. This was an en viable state of the law, compared with its state in England. The question was, how it could be introduced into this country. Se veral errors existed on the subject of the adniinistration of law in this country. One was, that for inferior suits thete should be an inferior judicature. He thought nothing could be more erroneous. The forty shillings was of the utmost importance to him who sued for it, and still more was his dissatisfaction at having justice re fused him by being defectively administered. He had a right to be dissatisfied. Small debt Courts did some good ; they were better than nothing.-(Hear, hear.)-So precious a thing was justice, that he would rather have the slovenly justice of a Court of Requests, than a peremptory denial of justice, or being driven to Westminster Hall. But he could not say that he wished to see their number increased, or their jurisdiction extended. They were already 240 in number, and had jurisdiction in the lowest to Ols. and in many such Courts to 51. quite enough for such Courts to have. Even where Courts were in the hands of skilful judges, he would not propose that the decisions of local Courts should be final, as that would lead to different decisions in different places, which could only be prevented by an appellant jurisdiction. He had, on a former occasion, remarked on the imperfection of the appellant jurisdiction from the colonies to the Privy Council ; and he also thought the Scotch had reason to complain of their causes being decided in the last resort by a Judge, who might be wholly ignorant of Scotch law. It was c:ifficult to aecount for the continuance of such a system. (Hear, hear.) He believed it could only be accounted for by the circumstance of their having been a succession of English Chancellors who had great practice in Scotch appeals, and also standing on the highest eminence in their profession. Such was the case of Lord Hard wick ; after him Lord Mansfield took the lead in Scotch ape pw,le ; then came Lord Thurlow, Lord Loughborough, and Lord 101enborough, who eminently united • knowledge of the law of both countries. It was from a succession of such men that he could account for such • grievance being so long borne by the people of Scotland ; but if ever the time should come, when an English lawyer, of but moderate knowledge of English law, and wholly ignorant of Scotch law, should preside over Scotch appeals, the anomaly might remain, but the only reason that could be as signed for its continuan ce at present would exist no longer. Having made these observations in passing on the present appellant juris diction of the country, he should return to his proper subject. He would suggest that in each county a lawyer of eminence should be appointed as judge, to have jurisdiction in the first instance in all actions for sums from 101. to 1001 and whose decision should be final in all suits for sums under 101. In all twits fur sums between 101 and 1001. an appeal should be al lowed; and he thought it would be advantageous that the ap peal should not be to the Courts of Westminster, but to the going Judge of Assise; but as it was desirable to give the party an op t ion, he would propose that appeal sh ou ld be either to the Judge of sake or the Courts of Westminster, but that the party should pay higher costs if he appealed to Westminster Hall. Applications for new trial might also be made to the judge of assize, or notice given to the party to be prepared for the argument at once, instead of moving for a rule before the case could he heard, as was the praetie. a , present. There were sonic cases in which the trial by jury mid,: be dispensed with. When lie named his hind Mr. Bentharr a l, named a man who was the founder of all legal reform in this roue. tty—(hear)-3 man for whom he felt the highest respect and admiration ; but, he was far front agreeing with that great authority in all his principles of reform, anti in none did he differ more from him than in his opinions on trial by jury, though Mr. Bentham set a high value on trial by jury in some cases. He however thought it of great importance in many cas .s in which his venerable friend %mild dispense with it. Wherever conflicting evidence was to be weighed, he thought the trial by jury was of incalculable value. No other method of coming at the truth appeared to him to be equal to assembling together a moderate number of tame or different opinions, and feelings, and habits, and 'pursuits ; after they had heard the conflicting testimony, allowing diem t &bate It together, and however extraordinary, or even 9 1 ' send it might appear, compelling them, as it were, to am:. to a unanimous decision. Ile knew that if they war• to decide by a majority, there would not be the sante anxiety, Oat same amount of discussion—the object would be to come to a speedy decision, anti there would be cries of " question," to hasten to 3 entelmion, as they ao.netimea heard in a different assembly.—(.l laugh). la cases, also, where damages were to be awarded hs opinion, which were incapable of positive proof, he thought to;! by jury most efficient; and he wished to retain it In those coma' which he hoped to live to see established all over the country...-. ( Ilear, hear.) In mime cases he thought the judge might decie. without a jury : but he found it %Tay diflicult to make tit: classification. (Hear.) lie would thee:fore propose, that as the pleadings would be made to tell, as they formerly did, what was the cause at issue, tie: judge should exercise his di s c re ti on or . that rant. lie expected DO difficulty world arise in the mint of the judge whether the case should be decided without a jury ; una, if both panics concurred with him, he thought it might be Wel} left to their discretion : but, if both parties did not concur in leaving it to the judge, it alt mid be tried by a jury. The state of our law at present made it a duty imperative on Parliament to furnish slash a cheap and speedy tribunal. (Herr, hear.) The officer sheald be a competent person, and should be paid a salary, and shouh' hold his courts monthly, fur ten months in the year at }cat, six times in the county town, and twice in two other large towns. The Assistant Banisters in Deland went over cut. county four times each year ; and they had, or had not, - trial by jury, as the case appeared to require. It we. essential that there should be a power to move for u new trial before the Judge of Assize ; and fur this purpose he should propose that the local Judges should be joined in the commission with the Judge of Assize, which would be found most convenient ; but he Shote“: have no voice in deciding on app e als against his own decision. it was found in practice, that Judges of Assize kitting themselves to sup. port the opinion they had g iv e n on c i rcu i t , l e d to i n j ust i ce i n many cases. This power of appeal would preserve the uniformity of ti. • law all over the kingdom. Then came the objection in point of expense There must be a salary for the Judge—for a Registrar, and one or tw, ushers. The salary ot' the judge, he thought, should not be lea. than 1.5t11L He would trek: t; ,e whole expense for England t• amount to something between 120,0001. and 130,0001. a-year This expense he did not think too great for the attainment of so great a good. In Fran, there were between three and foul thousand magistrates or judges, who bud jurisdiction is causes not exceeding four pounds ; and these judges cost 120,0001. a-year. The whole expense of their civil jurisdiction was between 300.0001. and 400,0001. a.yettr, and their civil am criminal administration cost together half a million annually. sum equal to a million in this ceuntry. Ile mentio n ed this to shen that the French, were so wise as to think no expense too great fot justice. That we should grudge an expense of 1 eO,OOOl. for the same inestimable blessing he never could believe. It was not equi to the permanent annuity that could be purchased with three week. extra expenditure of the last year of the was. Even three weeks' ea. penditure of that period would purchase an annuity of 150,M101. fun ever; and by tier tilt greatest blessing that Parliament ever bestowed on the country was cheap, speedy, and substantial justice.—(]fear.? These local Judges might act as arbitrators, in litany eases, with the best effect. If a neon possessed the respect of the profession. and of the public, who could be more fit to act as an arbitrator, of what so likely to prove satisfactory to the parties as the arbitration of such a Judge ; the subject of conciliation he could only touch on. In many foreign countries such Courts were established to prevent suits. The Judge, hearing the story of both parties. and telling one party, perhaps, that he must certainly lose his cause, and the other that lie ought to mitigate his demand, and frequently reconciling their differences. In France the attempt to establish such courts had signally failed. in the Netherlands and Holland the case was touch the (same. In Sweden the success was better:; but in Denmark it had succeeded best of all ; and their going before the Court of Conciliation was optional with the p 'riles. to which its success was.attributed. In Switzerland, where it was also optional, It also succeeded well ; and in Geneve one. third of the causes were so settlatl. He would propose that the local judge should see both the parties if they pleased, and then should act as judge of conciliation. In almost all instance. litigants were more or less misled by advice, certainly not by law. yens, who generally discouraged litigation. Much as lie respected the profession, he would not take upon himself to say, that there were no exceptions—that there were no banisters who wouid not ad vise law proceedings when he ought not —or that there were no attor. vies who would object going to such banisters for advice. He knew that consultations were held, where all the barristers lifted up thei: hands and eyes, and expressed their wonder that such a case should be undertaken or persevere.' in. The client was in all cases the most ignorant of the probability of his defeat. Ile was sometimes dragged, and sometimes coaxed, into the suit. In all such cases he had sanguine expectations that the ruin that often followed such proceedings might be prevented by the client having a conversation on his cause with a person of the character of the local Judge. Whether his proposal for improving the adininis. tration of law would be well received he did not know ; but he did know that those by whom it should be rejected were imperiously called on to provide a better remedy for the existing acknowledged defects in its administration. lather people had a right to jus. tire; they were crying fur justice, and they would not lie satis fied till they had attained it. (Hear, hear, hear.) Their ay might be called clamour; but Mr. Burke had said, andit ought to be written in letters of gold over the dour of every legislative assembly—" Where there is abuse there ought to be clamour;—better have your slumbers broken by the fire-bell, than perish in the flames in your bed:" He was told by some, that what he proposed was a puny and worthless reform. He was told by others, that he was recklessly pulling down all that was venerable in our institutions. Ile disregarded both charges, and would proceed in the course that appeared to hint best calculated to obtain the blessing of justice for the people. He had been charged with having been in name a reformer, but in reality leagued with those who supported abuse for the cake of pro. fessional advancement ; and this was charged on hint rho had refused the highest judicial honours; who at the time the charge was made against him, was, by his conduct, preventing the repetitien of the offer which lie had refused on public grounds alone. These slanders had neither caused him to slacken nor to hasten his course. It ever was the lot of all men, in all ages. who sought to improve the condition of mankind, to be mistaken and slandered; but truth would survive when calumny would be no more. (Hear.) Ifthe reform he proposed neither satisfied the rash nor the timid, perhaps the censure of botn miflit be panegyric. He should proceed, as he had commenced, pursuing the'courae ot those who had gone before, and left their example to guide, and their success to cheer. He moved that leave be given to bring in a bill for the establishment of local jurisdictions in certain counties in England.—(The learned gentleman sat down amidst loud cheers.) The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said be was confident no mar. in the House could less deserve the charge of want of zest or discretion, or diligence in the public service, than his honour able and learned friend. He was not prepared for the profound mess of his learned friend's observations • but it was the less ne cessary, as he had no intention of opp osing the motion of his honourable friend. It was more respectful to his honourable friend, and the importance of the subject, that he should bring In his bill for discussion before the house. He thought it extremely difficult to fix on the exact point, where the greatest benefit in jurisprudence could be attained with the least risk of incon venience. It was certainly the practice of our ancestors to have jus tice administered in local courts more generally than now. The whole country was divided into local jurisdictions. What had caused the change ? He thought it must be owing to the experience of their inefficiency. Ile would only mention one disadvantage, the difficulty of procuring impattial jurors er an impartial judge. The advantage of having but few judges was. that the • law was more simple, and was better understood. (Hear, hear.) Still he was an advocate foe a more speedy and more cheap administration of justice in cases of small amount ; and the had introduced such a Bill for the county of Lancaster ; and a Bill for the improvement of the County Courts generally had received the sanction of that house, and been supported by him. He concurred in much of what his hon. and learned friend had said, and particularly in his approval of trial by jury, which gave to the people of England the administration of justice, with which if they ever parted, they would endanger all their rights. He was not prepared to say that a J udg e should sit constantly in the same county. The hon. gent. o.uded by observing, that change merely for the purpose of change. could never do any good ; it would be unbe coming him top through the whole of his hon. friend's long, and no doubt will-meditated plan; he should, however, give it his suppat. Mr. FERGUSON supported the motion, because ft did not go to supersede' the jurisdiction of the higher tribunals, and because the came justice would be dealt out to the poor as well as to the rich. To one put of his hon. friend's motion he could not agree, namely, that the Sheriffs should reside in their own county. If that resolution wen adopted by the House, them it -