Star. — London, England, 1820-10-17 00:00:00

. .` . II • % .• a. ' t. or . • *. \ ---........... repeat the principal in this proceeding, and now that they has Lord REDESDALE contended, that their Lordships should at length got hold of the authorised tweets, it was enough to not permit the rules laid down by them to be violated. 1 shew that they hsd acted in that capacity, and that their acts Lord GREY said, he should not press his proposition to a bound the principal, not indeed to a criminal extent, but on& division. . clendy so to enable him to prove those acts, for the purpose of The LORD CHANCELLOR congratulated the House upon defending his Illustrious Qient. They were not bound to prove. the fact of their having adhered to thq plan laid down by them, that those particular acts were done by the authority of the to be governed by the rules of the Courts below. King's Ministers; it was suffielyst to shew they were generally The question whether the answer should or should not be employed as accrdited agents. Who was the person in whose received was then put, anal negatived without a division. company Vilmacarti was always band ? ;with whom did he con • The witness was then called back, and gently cooperate ? With Colonel Brown, who, he believed, Lord KING asked Mtn whether Rastelli said to him that was at the head of the Milan Commission, and Mr. Powell, who De Mont was to receive a large reward for giving evidence was admitted tobe, not only a most active, but a most confides" tial agent of the Milan Commission, so confidential, indeed, that against the Queen? their Lordships had allowed him to refuse answering a plain An objection was made to the question, which was not pressed. A Lostr.—Do you expect to be paid more or less, in propor- i e uestion, under pretence of having acted in that capacity. His arned Friend had well remarked, that the name of any hlens don as your evidence is more or less favourable to the Queen? —I only say, if they give me, I'll take it ( whet laugh). bee of the Milan Commission was no sooner mentioned on one side, than it was instantly followed up by a panegyric on the The Marquis of LANSDOWN asked her it was Mr. other. Vilmacarti was the solitary exception to this rule—rhary Brougham's? intention to examine the next witness with respect to the charge of. bribery. had not yet had Vihnacard's panegyric—(Laughrer). Now this Mr. IlsoucHaat said, he should pursue that course for the pnr- was really hard upon Vilmacarti, for after having heard the praises of all his coadjutors, Vilmacarti should come in for his pose r f establishing the conspiracy. Lod CAHN AIiVON asked of the Noble Lord (Liverpool), share. He trusted his Learned Friends would still satisfy his curiosity, and do justice to that injured Italian Attorney, by who had acted in Hanover for the case against her Royal adding his eulogiurn to those of his immaculate brethren, because Highness? Lord LI VERPOOL mentioned, there hd been but one if, before heating their empty praises , he rhould g o into the solid a et ideate., thrgenight find something in that solid evidence which agent in lianover — we d id not catch the name. BONTIGLIO ()KATI taws then coiled. would obviate* necessity of their panegyric. Could any doubt The Marquis of LANSDOWN rose to inquire whether the be entertained if the agency of Vilmacarti? He was, in point examination of the nest witness would relate to Rastelli, or to of fact, an ink cell part of the Milan Commission. The Com another part of the inquiry? mission was scarcely ever mentioned without the name of the Mr. BROUGHAM said, he had stated to their Lordships on Sa- Advocate Viimacarti being coupled with it. Vilmacarti and tutday that he was in no condition to inform the House what Powell stood precisely in the same situation. Now, Powell's Course he should feel it necessary to take, farther than he should capacity of agent had been recornized by their Lordships, inert continue for some time to pursue the present course of inquiry. much that he had been permitted to refuse answering a question He begged to be understood that this was the only view With indisputably legal, material to the issue, and relevant to the in which he was now proceeding to the examinadon of witnesses. quiry then pending, for one reason, and no other, namely, that The Marquis of LANSDOWN had only called the atten- he was a confidential agent, and therefore not bound to answer tion of their Lordships to this subject that it might be distinctly any question as to knowledge professionally acquired. If Powell understood in what course of inquiry they were proceeding. was an agent, so was Vilmacarti, for they stood precisely upon Her Majesty's Counsel would perhaps state their intentions when the same footing, and were never seen but in the company of they came to a conclusion of the present line of examination. each other. He could not anticipate any rational ground upon Mr. Bitoocuaertainly, my Lords. which the acts of Vilmacarti were to be shut out, as irrelevant B oeLw (Nun rem , the , e „„ e d b y Mr. w uzi . to this inquiry. They were not asking the witness as to conver- Do you know the Advocate Codassi?—Yes. 'lotion, but to facts; not to the declarations, but to the deeds of Was Codazzi concerned as a professional agent for her Royal Vilmacarti. The conduct of Vilmacarti was most material to Highness the Princess of Wales ?—Yes. the issue, as it affected the case of his Illustrious Client. If they k Do you know the Advocate Virmacarti?—Yes. were not to be allowed to probe these transactions to the bot torn, if they were to be perpetually obstructed in the course of Had you at any time any conversation with Vilmacarti re ipecthig the papers of her Royal Highness which were in the their evidence, and impedad in carrying on her Majesty's &- custody of Codazzi?—Yes. fence, then he could only say that he should humbly request their Lordships, or even the parties mast interested in the Bill, Did you in that conversation explain to Vilmacarti your xes. sons for coming to him ?—Because there was a person who hid whose very existence as public men depended upon the issue, to conducted me to his door. answer this one short question—Mow is the Queen to proceed Did you state that to Vilmacarti ?—I did. further in her defence? Did you state to Vilmacarti anything whichiSassed between At the conclusion of Mr. BROUGHAM'S argument,. and before Too and that person who brought you to his door ?—The mo- the SoLserrow-Grantaar. commenced his reply, cries of "hear • talent he saw me he knew me. and told me to bring him t h e the witness," proceeded from various parts of the House. ' papers belonging to her Royal Highness. The Souctroa-Glsoram. said, he would not imitate the 03-1 I)id he offer you any inducement to bring these papers? ample of his Learned Friend, by going into a variety of topke The Soraerrort:Grneara. objected to this course of inquiry. which were wholly irrelevant to the point at issue. He coos tended that the situation in which Vilmacarti wood differed an- Ile :eprehentled no conversation between Vilmacarti and the witness at the Bar could be evidence as to the charges contained tirely from that of Mr. Powell. Besides, no act even of the in the preamble of this Ball. He should be glad to hear what Milan Commission could be given in evidence, except as it re arguments could he urged on the other side. fated to any individual who had been examined at their Lord -I Mr. Bmovottan said, it was convenient, not to say usual, be- shills' bar. If it were otherwise, their Lordships might go fore being called upon to defend a particular line of examine- Into endless collateral inquiries, and the Counsel for the Bill teen, to he:ar not only the objections but the grounds of the ob. must have an opportunity of meeting that collateral matter with pctians which were made to it. new evidence. It was not necessary, however, to take that Hoe The LORD CHANCELLOR said, the Counsel certainly of argument, because the question at present was confined had a right to hear the objection before they could be called solely to VilmacattL No principle of law was clearer than that up ' 1 n to answer it. the acts of the agent could only bind the principal in so far as '1 he Scuerroe-GVISRAL said, the ground of his objecttett4 they were within the scope of the authority with which he was invested. Now, in what situation did Vilmacarti stand ? He was so palpable, that he had thought it unnecemary to state it. 14.: wished to know upon what principle of law any declarations was, in point of fact, merely an agent employed by the Milan ot roacarti could be made evidence in this proceeding. Sup- Compilation to bear and take down the evidence in writing. posing Vilmacarti to have been engaged as an attorney or advo- That was the authority with which he was invested, and it does not appear that the Milan Commission gave him any power or can:, his declarations could not be used for the purpose of esta- autho yond that prescribed blishing any fact. Unless be heard some ar g uments on the rity be duty. If an act of bribery had been committed by' the M ilan Commission, or by the Mb. other side, all he could do was to state, that be did not know how, according to the usual course, any conversation between vocate, Vilmacarti,, with reference to any individual who had Vilmacarti and the witness could be evidence. If he were been examined at their Lordships' bar, evidence of that bribery asked to go more into detail, he confessed that be was unable to would be admissible ; but, except it could be shorn that money do ot ; because he understood it to be one of the first principles had been offered to that particular individual, it was perfectly of law, that a conversation which had taken place between a clear that such evidence could not be received . If the agents witness and a party who stood in the situation of an advocate or had not acted within the scope of their authority, then it was attorney, could not be made use of as evidence for the purpose admitted on all hands, that their acts could not bind their pan of affecting the principal. cipaL Upon this short ground he rested his answer to the argu- Mr. Wu.oa said, that no question had arisen as to the charac- ments of his Learned Friends, and he trusted their Lordships ter in which Vilmacarti stood. • He was a known and accre- would be of his opinion. diced agent. The House adjourned at a quarter past four o'clock until to- The LORD CHANCELLOR said, it would perhaps save morrow (this day). tinte to refer to those parts of t he evidence which went to ' -----:------- sup port that al:egation. Mr. Wane said, that fact would be established by turning to slmost any page of the evidence. He referred to pages , 151, 173, .27, 233, &e. all which parts of the evidence com pletely established the agency of Vilmacarti. He knew of no persons estgaged in this transaction, whose agency was mere marked and unequivocal, than Colonel Brown and Mr. Powell, and Vilmacarti stood Is the same situation. It had been the misfortune of himself and his Learned Friends, whenever they had occasion to mention the conduct of any persons employed in this business, to draw down front the other side an euloglum upon the character of those individuals. He was ready to afford them a similar opportunity of exercisittg their skill in panegyric, by shewing what had been the conduct of Colonel Brown and Vilmacarti. If the conduct of those individuals was not to be inquired into, where, he would ask, were they to look for per sons respor.sible for the mal.practices which might be proved to have taken pirce ? By the evidence of this witness he was pres pared to Amy a mos t corrupt and wicked conspiracy on the' part of Vilmacarti, which would prove that man to be capable of any atrocity. Vilmacarti was sustained by Colonel Brown in this conspiracy, as would be proved by the evidence. He wished to question the witness upon the conduct of those two individuals, who were undoubtedly the most active weft in that transaction. In any Court they would permitted tO in quire what bad been the conduct rat profes sion al agents in get ting up the case? Here the LORD CHANCELLOR suggested that the wit- nets had better withdraw. Mr. WILDE said the witness did not understand ; word of THE EVENING STAR. LONDQV'. TWO E2O,OOO—TWO ZIsOOO—AND VARIOUS OTIMR CAPITALS —ALL STERLING MONEY—ALL IN SIX BOURS—ALL TO-MORROW, TUESDAY, OCTOBER 17, 1820. THE FUNDS. PRICE OF STOCKS THIS OAT AT ONE O . CLOCK 3 Bank Stock 217 2161-4 per Cent. Reduced 163 11 1 ex. div. 3 per Cent. Cons. 671 11-31 per Cent. 75% ex. div i 4 per Cent. 841 85 1141 ex. div.-5 per Cent. Navy 1031 1 Long Annuities 17 7-16 es. div,--India Bonds 255.265. pre. Exchequer Bills 4s. 6s. pre.—Omnittm 21 dis. Cons. for Acct. 671 1 1. - THE QUEEN. Considering, as we do, the proceedings before the House of Lords as a public nuisance that ought to be abated as soon as possible, it is occasionally ne cessary, in the present ferment into which they have thrown the nation, to remind our Readers that the buslnesa nno tte Wet into two cases—the one involving the guilt or i Of the 1 1 Quutt—the other the safety of the Constitution and Jurispris. I dance of the country. The question with respect to the guilt or innocence of, the QU[I24, every man, possessed even of as little common s seniev the prosecutors, regards as settled. The evidence that has bees adduced is treated with contempt and indignation. No oise spects it. The Addresses of thousands on thoesands 'to her Maarstr, declare their conviction of its subornation and perjury. But the question with respect to the Constitution it 'only opening, and it is to it we would seriously call attention. It Is full time that a stop should be put to an investirathan which can h a ve no other effect than t o corru p t the morals of the l'eopie. —On Friday the recriminatory proceedings commenced, and the Patron and Parent of the Milan Commission, !o thrown into the condition of defendant. To yrillt extent the Wean; now in fact become proeecutor, may earry he just re taliation, it is impossible to fo resee ; but.when notorious circus. stances are considered, we will venture to say, that a see* al such disgust will be opened as never was enfolded . before any Tribunal. edo therefore livplors Ail serious minds to reflect ea, this. The Clergy of the Establishment, having acquiesced in the punishmlint of the Quer, by omitting her name In the Liturgy before the attempt was even made to prove-her cuiltz, are, wer conceive, out of the question in this &riot and soli* eause.... They have leagued elves with the panders to the prancer 7 don. But the Dissenters, the pious end the sincere Christine, ought not to lose a moment in coining forward, with ireassaara; tory Petitions to the Crown and the Peers against the abominable taint that the obscene enquiries are spreading throughout the land. Topics are now discussed with females, and before the rising youth of both sexes, which, before this detestable and flagitious were regarded as unfit even for the orgies of Oacchanalian Laglish. The Somerros-Geszaxt.—We are not sure of that. The witness was removed, and Mr. Wang continued. The conduct of Colonel 'Brown and Vilmacarti had been such, that if it had been proved before any of the Learned Judges who were now sitting upon the Woolsack, a prosecution so nefariously got up would have been scouted with indignation from the Ccnlrt. Ile was persuaded that they would not for one instant. have suffered a prosecution to proceed, after the professional agents bad been proved to be guilty of such conduct. He tr,sted their Lordshiws would pe rmit them to prove, by this witness, a conspiracy to withdraw the evidence of her Royal Highness from the custc.dy of her Legal Advisers, and that they should not be bound down to shoe that Vilmacarti and Colonel Brown had exprets authority from an unknown principal for every specific act of ager.cy. Tn shew that they had been ac tive was enough. There were many instances in which they might nut be able to shew the complete link of agency, but me lancholy, indeed, would be the situation of their Illustrious Client, if, when her witnesses had been brought up after such a lapse of time, and from so distant a country, they were not per mitted to prove a foul conspiracy, which bad been plotted against her, because, forsooth, they could not prove by whose authority and direction the agents of an unknown prosecutor had acted. tic trusted, that if their Lordships permitted her blajesty to be affected by the evidence, they would likewise permit them to show the character of the witnesses, and of the persons who had suborned them. It wits a monstrous proposi tion, that they should net he suffered to spew what conspiracies had existed, and what witnesses had been suborned, unless they' could also shew from what pocket the money came, and what hand had supplied the mans of corruption. When the agents, who had been running from one end of the Continent to the other to get up a case agains t her Maiesty, were charged with a wicked conspiracy, it was WO much to prevent her Majesty, at ibis distance of time, and with the scanty means of information Which she possessed, from proving that conspiracy, because she could not trace back the guilty actt of the mania to their mys terious principel. He trusted their Lordships would not shut them out front proving this conspiracy by the tesdniony of the • • • present witness, BAOUGHaII said, it was hardly necessaty for Mtn to oc cupy a moment of their Lorsfshipe time, after what hid been so forcibly and perspicuously stated by his teSined His Learned Friends had been emtemetfloth to alblw them to • stir,. It this to be endured? Ate puenttlitdtsardians and see all dose things, fin which ,G ove rnments and LISINVIce nude, destroyed and corrupted, tinder forms that take, the data dna of Law and Government? Again we invoke the religions aid the moral part of the community to co me forwara and ad; dress the Throne and the Woolsack, in a manner that may make them feel, that if this wicked mellaure is pushed from one stage of iniquity to another, it is impossible to forest what even reli gious feeling may dictate to the nation, as being necessary to put an end to the proceedings. The youthful indiscretions of the Knee were pardoned by pie Nation, and the errors of his riper years were overlooked. Is it discreet, then, in pretended or real friends, to drag him, for former frailties, to the tremendous bar of public opinion ? In the name et charity, and in respect for the Monarchy,we deprecate the attempt. But Justice is deaf alike to ?derey and to Corruption. The weak and wicked Counsellors, who have brought this trial before her, by which the worst acts of obscenity have become " house hold words," must abide the issue of her stern decrees. Public Opinion is now the Prosecuto r, and will award Justice. Again, we say, that the cue, as it personally concerns the Qmunt, may be considered as'closed ; but that which really con cerns the Country, was not opened till Friday—and, unless the Nation be tainted,:xdted, and debauched in its morals, by the filthy business that has taken place, it will, with one universal ezpreuion of abhorrence, prevent the hideous cesspool of f e y from from being.orptied upon tbe world. In a *Ord, the Mae Christian community of Europe is interested in the con sequences of this loathsome affair; and we are only astonished that no pod& declaration of the Holy Alliance has been yet issued on the subject. On the evidence that was given yesterday, it is unnecessary to say anything: it speaks for itself. But respecting evidence which was prevented front being given, the Public cannot be prevented from speaking. The call of the Public voice is unani mous, that no forms or rules of evidence in the Courts below," ought to be interposed to prevent a full disclosure of the foul and wicked conspiracy that appears, by the evidence, to have been formed against the Qum of ENOIAND; that no rule of procedure adopted by the House should he adhered to, which, in its application, is found calculated to hide and screen the cos spiratora—it being of infinitely greater importance that the cha racter of the House for maintaining " substantial justice" should stand unimpeachable, than its character for consistency in—ad hering to any side whatever, that may, in its operation, prevent or even interrupt the dispensing of that " eubstantial justice" to either the accused or the accu ses—the conspirators or their in- • IF tened Victim. . The Public will view with disgust the shifting, shuffling, and quibbling, employed to prevent the transactions of the Hano verian Minister, Bhron Oservicoa, from being any way brought into connection with the .Milin Commission. The whole argu ment of the Counsel for the Bill, when freed from verbiage, is simply this—What can the conduct of the Ministers of a German Sovereign, the "Inge Hanover, have to do with the proceedings of the Milan Commission, appointed, not by the King of Hano ver, but, by the King of England, or by his Ministers! ! ! THIRTEENTH DAY OF THE DEFENCE. HOUSE OF LORDS. . The House resumed proceedings exactly at ten o'clock. A Gentleman from the Treasury presented at the llar-:-Ist. Au Account of the Revenue for the last Year ; and, ed. Au Ac count of the E x p ens es incurred in the Proceedings instituted against her Manors', as far as the same van be. made up to the present date.—Counsel were then called in. The LORD CHANCELLO R stated 92 the House the posi tion in which the proceed in g s were on adjourning yesterday.— The Counsel for her Majesty had put a question to the w itness under examination , w hich had been oppoied by the Counsel for the Bill as totally inadmissible. That question his Lordship conceived to be this--Whether the circumstance of the name of Vilma:mid having been repeatedly mentioned in the course of the . evidence, as an individual connected with the preparation of the case for the prosecution, was a sufficient reason for admitting an inquiry to be gone into, which had for its object to shew, that he had offered inducements to an individual who had not beep examined. as a witness for the prosecution, to betray the interests of the defendant? The case, with respect to Vilmacarti, observed his Lordship, may differ much from the case already decided by their Lord ships (alluding, as we understood, to the case of Reganti), where the individual, whose acts were sought to be proved, could nor be tinaidered as an Agent whose sets were to bind the party in the Mee ; and it would be for their Lordships to decide, on a view of the whole case, whether Vilmacarti was to be looked upon as such an Agent, or merely as an Advocate professionally assisting, who had no authority to commit his employers. Without offer ing an opinion whether Vilmacarti ought to be considered as an , Agent or not, hii Lordship thought that resort should be had to the Learned Judges, in order to know what, under similir cit. ! cumstances, would be the course of practice in the Courts below. The case he would love stated to than thus :—lf, in the trial of a civil action, or of an indietment,evidence were given, on the cross examination of a witness examined in chief ott the pari'of the pro. secution, from which it might be inferred that A II a person not examined as a witness, had been employed as agent of the plaintiff or prosecutor to collect evidence on his behalf ; and if the defend er should propose to examine a person to prove that the said A B had offered a bribe to C D to give evidence, .0 D not having beers witness examined for the p laintiff or prosecutor, and there being no proof that A B bad authority to use undue means to obtain evidence, would such examination be permitted by the practice of the Courts of Law ? Sul GREY observed, that if the object of the geodes was to remove any doubts in the mind or the Noble sod Louniii Lord on the Woolsack, which were undoubtedly dreassrbeg el great consideration, he would readily agree to its being put. But, for his own part, he thought that the. Qpeen's case was of such a nature, that, even if the Judges were to decide that, according to the strict rules of Ltw, such an inquiry as that re presented in the case put by the Noble and Learned Lord, meld not be proceeded in, still it would be the duty of the House to go on with the course of examination which had been yesterday interrupted by the Counsel for the Bill--(lloar,lsear). Ai an individual, be was indisposed to voluble the Learned dges en the subject ; for whatever their opinion West be, he could never alter his own, that justice. would not be done, unless the Counsel for her Majesty were allowed to proceed With the evidence which they had tendered, to prove that the whole ovu case against her Majesty was . bottomed in a system of coo. spiraey, for the subornation of perjury '-(Cries of Mear,lies►r 1). His Lordship could not conceive why the Noble and Leese& I.ortl had introduced the analogy of a civil action into the ease which be proposed should be put to the "Judges. The present prosecution had nothing in 'lt which had the slightest resem blance to a civil action. It was a criminal proceeding eff the bkhest description, and looking at it in this lights tbe . ears: be Wadi rather wish put to the Judges, would be tkie-s 4 SoPpeilitg . in a promeudtin fora capital o(ence-and the present was nothing short of that, for though it did not involve the lees of life, it involved vilit was . isilnitely more valuable —logs st station, of character, and of honour—Mow, hear, hear).-.• Supposing sucih a prostitution, and that it should be offered . . _ 1 the Judge 'residing at the trial, to prove that an attempt and been made to bribe witnesses whose testimony, if roe caved,-would have been fatal to the life of the accurel.- - Orotdd inch eyideoce, involving a pollution of the very source of all justice. and so monstrous se injury to the individual — geld it possibly be refused? Roe would *this be introducing joy new. rule. Uin any case, whether on the part of the pro mention or defence, a suspicion is excited that an attempt 'has bea made, by corrupting witnesses, to impose a false case es the Court, vrbetsever that suspicion , arises it is . the duty of tbd Court to institute an Immediate inquiry into the fact. — Their Lordships were bound to do so now, unless they wished le shat their esti to all evidence which might by possibility have dm Abet of establishing that the whole of the case against hue Majesty was a foul conspiracy rotting on false and suborned testimony, to deprive a high and Illustrious Individual of those ns, without which all that life c an g ive is of no value. treedr(lidence offered to prove the existence of a conspiracy, wee even of a stronger nature than that tendered yesterday, and which he (the Noble Earl) felt persuaded ought to have been vesabred. This was not a a civil suit," nor to be regulated by the ordinary rules of law. It seas a proceeding of the higbest de scription ; and, if in the trial of s u ck a cause, evidence was offered to prove that the course of justice had been corrupted, and per- WPM bribed to appear at that bar, bow could their Lordships— adherim as they must all wish to do, to the strict line of justice — hew could they refuse to admit the evidence? Their Lordships Would neither do justice to their own character, nor stand with the Public in the situation the,y must wish to stand, if they re tested to inquire into this conspiracy ; without which substantial justice (weld sot be obtained. She Ned of LIVERPOOL was In favour of having the opi ' Ann of the Judges on this point, without , at this time, stating mbatcourse their Lordships might deem necessary to adopt when that opinion was given. The proofs of alleged censpiracy were of a general nature, and had no connection with the case before their Lordships. The Noble Lord opposite had called this a ci aninal prosecution, and such he would admit it was : for an act might be criminal although the punishment should not be so. If the Learned Counsel against the Bill could prove that the witnesses who appeared in this cause had been suborned, cor rupted, or attempted to ld corrupted, it might be admitted as evidence, if the agency be traced ; but the question was, to prove an attempt to corrupt witnesses who had not appeared for the Ifill. This, he would admit, was equally criminal in the parties who did so, but it had no reference to the present cause. Before the Judges retired, he would state one point, which their Lerddiips might consider while the Learned Judges were out, if they thought it necessary. If their Lordships were to go on in this 'course of inquiry, sonic notice ought to have been given to Vilmicarti and -Colonel Brown, that they might have been prepared to meet it. If this had not been done, how could their Lordships receive the charges of accusation? lie conceived it a necessary consequence of the admission of the evidence, that these persons should have previous intimation of it. He had eo objection that the Members of the Milan Con:- mission and Vilmacarti too, should be called t o their Lord ships Liar, to explain their conduct. • And if they admitted this question, they must hear the defence of the parties charged. Lord ERSKINE said, he had already expressed his opinion on this subject yesterday, and having considered it still farther, and called to his memory his practice at the Bar in early life, he felt persuaded that the question ought to be put without re ferring it to the Judges. It was strange to hear their Lord ships talk of being strictly bound by law, when it was admitted that they ought not th be fettered by it, but to be guided only by those means which were best for the atteinment of justicot e. If their Lordships would not adm it this q uestion, they were n only binding themselves to rules of law, but to rules of law quite inapplicable to the case. Ile would consider this asa crimi. na l indictment against persons for subo r ning witnesses; and, were he Counsel for the prosecution, he would first prove the existence of the conspiracy, and then endeavour to bring it home to the par ties by witnesses who would prove the acts of the agent. In the case of the State Trials of 1794, this was the mode of proceeding. The conspiracy to dethrone the King was first attempted to be proved, and then to prove the agents. This was the mode in all cases of this nature: first prove that a conspiracy exists, and 'leo bring it home to the parties. the appealed to the books if this was not the law of England : first give general testimony este the existence of a conspiracy, and then trace it to the•parties.—: By this means the Counsel might bring it home to Viinsacagd, be to ColonetErown, and Colonel brown to the actual peoseessor. If there had been a conspiracy on foot, so matter by :reborn, it was the duty of their Lordships to sift it to the 'bottom, to prove the acts of the Agents, and tints trace it to its vonsee.-- The attemet of' nautili to corrupt witnesses was inmeausphicl in, the history of jurisprudence; and were their Lordships, with ' tie knowledge of this fact, to suffer the matter to rest here? If the Counsel for her Majesty proved various acts of su bornation of witnesses, how were their Lordships to know whether the witnesses. already examined bad not been pro-. cured by these means? He (the Noble Lord) did think they bad been suborned, because so person deviates from the truth without some sinister motive; and when their Lordships found witnesses declaring on oath what was notoriously and wick edly false, ought they not to be particularly cautious in the evidence they admitted to weigh on their minds? — It was the duty of the Coune,4 for the defence to bring forward evidence to prove this conspiracy ; and it was no less the duty of their Lordship' s as he conceived, to hear that evidence and de, side upon it. if it was proved that an Ageht of the Milan Com mission offered to bribe a single person to give evidlloo* agatmt the Omen, this single proof of the conspiracy tainted the whale eel-. dence ; for, although there might be some witattest who alsill Dot be proved to have been thus bribed, yet le *rw a sospichm spun the whole, He would appeal to the Mike' t ogreielse. if he had knows, before the coasadamotePt :Odds onikowsome busi ness, what he knows now, if be would have gone into the prosecution ? lie felt perfectly cetnrineeti that be would not. Their Lordships were not to confine themselves to the rides of a Court of Junice for no Court-of Justice ever had to decide on such a cause. 'He entreated their Lordships to permit the Counsel to trace the conspiracy to its source, for of the eirjatelhe of a conspiracy no one could doubt. Their Lordships would I thus best discharge their duty to the sound principles of police, to their own character, and to that posterity by Which their emeduct will hereafter be judged. The Earl of LAUDERDALE objected ti n course ad *abed by the Noble Lord (Grey), as certainly gto oblatethe rules of evidence, which rega rded the highest and the !ow -1 est equally. The agency of Vilmacarti had never been proved. As far as Colonel Brown could be Cemidered as concerned in acting for the case, that person might be looked upon as tbe agent of the Colonel at the time the conversation took place, but ,he had nothing to do with the agency which it had beep found amessary to consdtute, with a view to inquiry. In fact, the aidingy that presented itself of coming at the truth, was by by the rules of the Courts below, and deciding upon le- Vassidlosities with the assistance of the Learned Judges. lard ROSSINN said, that the rules of evidence established In hie Courts below, were certainly adopted as the best means of ardving at the truth, in the cases' which generally occurred. There was no doubt of their being the surest means of eliciting die truth between two parties of opposite interests; and he would likewise admit, that those rules admitted no exception, as the ge neral principle upon which they had been built was of greater consequence to society than any benefit that could arise from the violation of them in any ordinary case; but the lases of evidence 1 41111,e.d essentially in Civil and in criminal cases. In he criminal 'Nee, where a doubt arose, that doubt was acted upon for t base& of the accused. Now, strictly speaking, in the ca e before their Lordships, there was but one party who could - I e 'materially affected, and their Lordships wera not trying at the suit of the Crown upon private information, but sittiog to alter the law, to create a new crime, and to inflict a new Punishment, (hear, hear.) They were there as a part of the . Legislature, in the capacity of considering the expediency m passing a Bill, and could they refuse to hear evidence calculated to prove that they were imposed upon? calculated to prove that the facts upon which the charges in the preamble of the I ill are gunded, are false; and that the whole structure had been raised by ro the vilest agents, pursuing the vilest means ! (Near, hear 1 And who was the party supposed to be injurtd—The State.' The question of expediency then was, whether, for the service of the State, their Lordships would pass the Bel? Cerra:T-1y the Noble Lord opposite (Liverpool) might be considered :e -•spousible for theintroduction of the measure, is the common ac ceptation of the.word. how then did the house stand affected e ? .The Noble Lord might be responsible to the House, but he Bran became, with him, parties to the proceeding, at the same dam that they were judges, and sitting in deliberation whether all shoal& adopt a Bill introduced to them under such prerts- WNW effwefealf/Rims. They were, while :teeing in t h e se card lise, called 'goo by the party acc used to bear evidence to prove dim the chases are part of an atrocious conspiracy, and that at tempts have been nude to impose on their Lordships, and Indere dips to sanction a measure disgraceful to themselves and the na- OM. They were called upon to hear proof, not that the Commit- • • ... pres wer mitt for I her nun A lest tbey Lc °pint Lc to th Jude pi ol her Con as 4 esta a / di by den wa! scni Coi Wei 4111 ma tui bly