Star. — London, England, 1820-06-10 00:00:00

about to be carried into effect. Resolution agreed to. The House resumed, and the Report was ordered to be received on Mond IEISII COURT OY CHANCERY BILL. The Order of the Day for the second reading of the Irish Court of Chancery an having been read, Sir JOIII NEWPORT took occasion to animadvert on the vLry great expense attending proceedings in that Court: lie said, that where the St.!te imposed a tax of !me shilling the Of -s:ers imposed a tax of three shillings. The Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be commit ted on Friday next; Sir JOHN NEWPORT added, that there were provisions in the Bill which he would oppose, because they were at direct iariance with the Report of the Commissioners.. Mr. CHARLES GRANT said, he would be prepared to ,ii‘port those provisions when the question shoold come before Committer. '[hr Irish Exchequer Chamber Bill was read a third time, puled. WAYS •AND MEANS: and be could not make it onto It seemed that a pi-O , vision had been made for appropriating the growing amount of the Consolidated Fund. His Honourable Friend had noticed this, and had observed that the growing ammint might be made productive and use- 1 ful to the Public. In consequence of his representa tion a Bill had been brought in some time ago; to enable the Public to make use of its growing amount, by which it was provided, however, that they should not borrow more than 06,000,000 from it. But. it so happened that this growing Consolidate/ Fund was not equal to the discharge of the advances that had been made on it in the preceding Quarter. He would thus explain himself :—Supposing this was the begin ning of the Quarter, that the public accounts were made up, and that there was a deficiency of £3,000,000; the Bank, in the first instance, made this goad; and out of the amount of the Consolidated Fund in the com mencing Quarter the Bank was repaid those1.1;000,0(X). I Supposing, over and above this sum of £3,.000,000, an equal sum accrued, the Public, under the Act, would, he understood, have the advantage of those £3,000,000, since, by its provisions, a sum of £6,000,000 might be borrowed for the public ser vice. This was the system; but how, he asked, was it possible that the Public could have the advantage of any part of this growing fund, when, in fact s it was in debt ? It was exceedingly difficult for him to comprehend this. In April, 1819, there was a sum of £2,027,000 so issued for the use of the Pub lic ; and it was stated that from that period to April, 1820, the Public had the benefit of that money.— But how could they have the use or benefit of it out of a growing Consolidated Fund, on which there was no surplus whatever, but which, on - the con trary, was in debt, and which debt amounted to more than the £6,000,000 which they were by the Act of Parliament empowered to borrow ? As he could not understand this, he would be obliged to the Right Hon. Gentleman to inform the House whether the Public had really derived advantage from this £2,027,000, from April, 1819, to April, 1520 ?—(Hear, hear). The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that in the first place he entirely concurred with the Honourable Member (Mr. Ricardo) in applying the principle of competition to all contracts for the Public, wherever it could be safely introduced. There might, however, be cases where it would not be prac ticable to adopt the system. As a general principle, it was a good one, and in a variety of instances it was adopted by Government. With respect to the Honourable. Member's remark relative to the ad vances made from the Consolidated Fund to the pub lic service, he would under stand the matter better by a reference to the 59th of George 111. cap. 93, than from any explanation which he could give. He would, however, briefly answer the Hon. Member's observation. It had been a frequent complaint of different Members in that House, that a great profit was made by the Bank, by holding in their hands the growing produce of the Consolidated Fund, with out any corresponding advantage being derived by the Public ; and various plans were devised to enable the Public to make use of their own money during each current Quarter. In 1808, an arrangement was in consequence entered into between the then Chan cellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Perceval) and the Bank for the advance of £3,000,000 without interest, in consideration of the advantages which they derived from those balances. This arrangement, after sub sisting for some years (for it was stipulated that it should remain in force till a certain number of years On the Motion of the CHANCELLOR of the Excnt- OVER, the House resolved itself into a Committee of the whole House, to consider farther of the Ways and Mean towards raising a Supply to be granted to his I.llajesty. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER then stated, that he should not have occasion to trespass long on the attention of the Committee, it having been generally understood, in casequence ofi former arrangement, that he should defer any specific expla nation of the finances of the present year until Friday next, when, on submitting to the House certain Re solutions respecting the Sinking Fund and dm Loan, the Supply, and the Ways and Means, be would enter fully into the subject. All he had now to do was, to state the terms of the Loan that had been con tracted for on the present day. In recommending its confirmation to Parliament, he must observe, that it was one of the most advantageous bargains ever concluded between the Treasury and the Contractors. The price of Stocks had this day coincided precisely with what it was when the Loan was contracted for last year; and though last year there was an extra ordinary degree of competition, the competition was sn;l greater on the present occasion. The Contract, in this instance, was a half per cent. more(avourable t. - • the Public than it was in the former year, although tl•e price of the Funds was in each case the same.— The 3 per Cent. Reduced Annuities were now, as they were last year, at 69. The last price, before that Stock was shut, was.7oi, from which if they de ducted the July dividend of per cent. k reduced it to 69, which was the present price—the same price, even to a fraction, which the S per Cent. Annuities bore last year. The Contract for the Loan of last year amounted to £142. 18s. per cent. in the present year the Contract was concluded at £142. 4s. per cent. being 14s. in stock, or 10s. in money, more fa vourable t h an the preceding Contract. Considering it by the ordinary calculation of the price of Stock, the Contractors had taken the Loan at nearly two per cent. above the current price of Stock, which was highly beneficial to the Public. At the same time that the bargain was so favourable to the Public, he thought it was one that would produce a fair profit to the Contractor. lie was sure it must be the wish of the House that it should produce a due degree of profit to the Contractor—(Hear, hear)—and, indeed, It was advantageous to the Public that it should do so. Looking to the small amount of the Loan, the bargain was almost as favourable as had ever been concluded by the Treasury. Under these circum stances, he considered it unnecessary for bins to take up the time of the House ; and he should, therefore, move-4I That it is the opinion of this Committee, that, towards the Supply to be granted to his Majesty, the sumof 0,000,000 be raised by Annuities." Mr. GRENFELL expressed his approbation of the Loan, which was undoubtedly very favourable to the Public. It was always an evidence of a beneficial contract when the premium was moderate. The Right Hon. Gentleman was, however, mistaken when he said that this was the most favourable Loan that had ever been concluded. Other Loans had been more favourable, with reference to the existing prices of the Funds when they were contracted for. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER cer tainly did not mean to refer to the present Loan as the most favourable that had ever been concluded ; but undoubtedly he considered it to be one of the most favourable. He had I:3 recollection of a higher relative price of the Funds except in one former year. Mr. RICARDO observed, that the present Loan was made on vary satisfactory terms. It was impos sible, he thought, that it could be obtained at a more favourable rate. He, however, traced those favour ..ble terms to the recommendation of an Honourable Friend (Mr. Grenfell), who, some years ago, had ad v:sed that- the Commissioners of the National Debt Lliould be allowed to subscribe for the Loan to the after the war), expired last year. It was then thought advisable that the growing produce of the Consoli dated Fund should be applied in a different manner, a statement being made by the Bank that the public money lying in their hands was so small in amount as not to warrant them to continue the advance of £3,000,000 without interest. In lieu, therefore, of the former arrangement, by which the Public had the use of £3,000,000 without interest, a Bill was in troduced, to enable the Treasury to borrow from the Consolidated Fund to the extent of £6,000,000, the s use of which the Public were to have without interest. This was to be paid in any particular Quarter, and to be renewed at the commencement of the next Quar ter; so that, instead of its being a permanent, it was a running advance. To prevent the disadvantage of anticipating too large a sum before the Quarter, it was provided that the advances made by the Bank under this Act, together with other advances to cover any deficiencies, should not exceed £6,000,000; and as the advance made by the Bank amounted to £3,400,000, that sum, and £2,600,000, making a gross amount of £6,000,000 remained from that time to tie present available to the Public. From that period to the present time, the Public had had the benefit of £2,600,000 in Exchequer Bills, from which they deiived very considerable advantage. Mr. GRENFELL said the Right Hon. Gentle. man, he WAS sure, would recollect that, in the com mencement of the Session in the month of February, 1819, a question arose, during the discussion rela tive to the Bank Balances, whether the sum of £18,000,000 should not be applied to the public ser- Tice. In consequence of that inquiry the 59th of the, late King was introduced. But he had never yet been able to understand how a sum of £6,000,000, or of £2,600,000, had been, in point of fact and practice, made available, so as to save the Public in terest on that amount of money. He understood from the 'light Hon. Gentleman that £2,600,000 were taken from the growing produce of the Conso lidated Fund, for the service of the Public ; but it now appeared that Exchequer Bills to that amount, and bearing no interest, were lying in the Teller's chest in lieu of this available sum. But how did it happen that this amount of Exchequer Bills re mained stationary? The Consolidated Fund must vary every Quarter: it might be six, or seven, or eight millions; but still this sum of £2,600,000 con tinued stationary. He had referred to, and read at tentively, in the course of the last week, the Act to which the Right Hon. Gentleman alluded, and he thought the practice there recognized advantageous to the Public; but he must repeat that he was wholly at a loss to know how the Right Hon. Gentleman could make out his statement that the Public were deriving advantage from the use of £2,600,000 drawn from a fund which was so deeply in debt. With respect to the balances in the hands of the Bank, he had within the last three or four years re peatedly called the attention of the House to them. The system had been altered, but he was one of, those who thought that, at a time like the present, some amount of the balances in their hands. This advice was followed on the present occasion ; but if the old course had been adopted, and the Loan had been for £i7,000,000, the result would have been very differ ent. Another cause which tended to procure term s so favourable was the smallness of the Loan. It was 'within the power of a great number of persons to bid for a Lan of L 5,000,000, and therefore the compe tition fur the present Loan was much more extensive than usual, and far greater than if it had been for . 4 :17,000,000. In consequence of those circumstances, the Right Hon. Gentleman had certainly obtained such terms as must be highly satisfactory to the country. lie conceived that no fairer mode could be devied in forming contracts for the Public than by open competition. That system, he hoped, would he generally acted on. An Honourable Gentleman had, on aformer night, asked some questions relative to a large amount of Exchequer Bills, which had semen issued by Government at liar, when they were at:a discount ia the market. From the explanation .)1 the 'tight lion. Gentleman, it seemed that they 'vere given in consequence of a contract for a quan tit) of silver. Now, it was quite evident that the 7s. cr Bs. received by Government from the persons with :.hone the contract was made would be reimbursed a I tolit in the price of the silver : they would un e.oubtecily raise the price to the amount which they 'Tie likel y to lose.. Ile thought, in this instance :hat the system of competition should have been on , and that they should have been purchased I:l.tt way. Ile wished for some explanation with to the quantity of Exchequer Bills relative to y. 1.4.1: information had been demanded a few even ings 4, ; (i. A statement had then been made, which his llonotnahle Friend (Mr. Grenfell), and other Gen t.t:niLii, declared they did not understand. It ap p•-aied to him to be a very mysterious transaction; ' , . farther benefit might be derived from them by the: better to l ay hold of it all; ant thus get tid of the Public, with perfect fairness to the Bank of England. i delusion At present, they wer e nay b - eiripsvint The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,l£l2,ooo,ooo from the Com fri issiiiners, having previ the £2,600,000 taken out of the Ccinsolidated Fund ously furnished them with the means of lending it. were replaced by Exchequer Bills witbout interest. Mr. HUME understood the Rig ht Hon. Gentle- Mr. J. MARTIN said, that At several different man to have 'said, that he hoped this would be the Quarters there were seven or eight millions due on last loan the codntry would require for a long time: the Consolidated Fund ; and yet the Right Hon. But how could that be? Were these 1:12,00000 to Gentleman stated that he borrowed from it. By the be made up next year? If they were not, and alit Act of Parliament he could not borrow unless there delusive system were continued; the Right 'Hon: was a surplus, and therefore he conceived that the Gentleman might go on borrowing every succeeding statute was violated. ' year. Such a system could only em'uai rest and in- The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER de. cumber the country. nied that any violation of the Act of Parliament had The CHANCEIsLOIrof the EXCHEQUER ob.: taken place. served, in reply, that be feared there would be much Mr. HUME said, that the authority to borrow confusion in the supposed simplification of proceed; £6,000,000 from the Consolidated Fund would be ittgs which had been suggested by'Hon. Gentlemen. very well as long as there was :any surplus of that Mr. Alderman HEYGATE said it was most irn; fund ; but on the 12th of April it appeared that it portant for every man in the country, in whatever was 1:6,800,000 in debt ; consequently, out of that trade or profession, to know how the circulating me fund none of the sums stated could possibly be taken. dium was to be kept up. It was a most sacred duty Mr. GRENFELL said it would be a most desirable of Government to secuie the maintenance of a circus thing if some means were devised to get rid of this lation adequate to the taxation of the country. Now deficiency of the Consolidated Fend. One objection the money taken out of circulation would only be to its continuance was, that it rendered the accounts returned to it on the part of the Bank by purchases SO extremely complex, that he doubted very much of gold, of Exchequer Bill. , or by discounts. The whether the Right Hon. Gentleman himself under- last mode was inadequate, but he could not 'conceive stood them. He did not say this with any intention what rational objection could exist to the Bank pur to offend the Right Hon. Gentleman; but he did chasing and selling Exchequer Bills, as they formerly' moss positively know that many persons in official did, by which means the circulation would be kept situations in the Exchequer declared that th e y cc,uld up when deficient, and reduced n hen superfluous: not master them. When such men as bis Honour- The Honourable Gentleman was persuaded the great able Friends, who had spoken in the cou rs e of this cause of the present digress of our agriculture and discussion, and who were in the habit of inspecting trade arose from the continual reduction of the cit.. figures and accounts—when they stated that these culation which had of late been going on, and which accounts were unintelligible to them, something tended, by raising unnaturally the value of money, ought to be done to simplify them—(Hear, hear!). to augment the pressure of Taxes, Pensions, and fixed The deficiency of the Consolidated Fund was a blot Payments. He was glad to hear there were to be on the statement of their annual finance. It was no more loans during peace. The system of borrow clear that there was a deficit of from six to eight ing was a great source of the calamities of the country, millions :he knew that that deficiency was provided Mr. RICARDO said, that one question had been for quarterly by the Bank ; but it should be recol- put- by his lion. Friend who had just sat down, in the lected that they paid the Bank interest for it. If they necessity of which he did not eatirely concur. He even paid a little more interest than they did to the (Mr. Ricardo) thought it quite unnecessary for the Bank, in order to procure money to cover it con- Bank of England to reduce its circulating medium pletely, it would be advantageous to the Public, any further than it was at present reduced% The Hon: since it would simplify the system. But if they did Gentleman had said, that the price of gold was now not raise the money by loan, and chose rather to issue at the Mint price; perhaps he might have said that Exchequer Bills, still they would not be paying a it was a little under it, for he knew that many per= greater interest than they now paid to the Bank. He , sons took gold to the Miiit at the Mint price, in order was not sanguine enotkgh to contemplate the period, to be coined ; and this they could not do if gold was within any moderate lapse of time, when the increase not, in fact, a little under that price, because some of the resources of this country would enable them space of time must elapse before they could receive to get rid of this deficiency. If the Right Hon. Gen- the benefit of the coinage. Bat his lion. Friend ap. tleman could state that in two or three years such peared to labour under a mistake, in supposing that an improvement was likely to take place as would be a reduction of the circulating medium would be a adequate to the expendit&e, and also get rid of the consequence of this Loan, or repaying the Bank.— deficiency of seven or eight millions, - he would not The reduction of Bank-notes within the last year did be averse to giving him the full time. He would not exceed £2,000,000; that reduction of £2,000,000 ask the Right Hon. Gentleman, whether it was not was all that was necessary to bring about that state most desirable to get rid of this odious, unseemly, of the currencywhich all had united with the Finance unsightly blot ? Committee in desiring to see obtained. Indeed, CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, if the Bank was desirous to follow their own in there was one point which might account for the terest, it was a clear and obvious one: if they were. Honourable Gentleman's observations, which was, to effect a very great reduction in their paper, which that he did not really understand the mode in which he should most sincerely lament, the consequence the sum of £2,600,000 was borrowed from the Con- would be such a rise in paper, and such a fall in solidated Fund. A great many Gentlemen of know- gold, that individuals would carry their gold to the ledge and sagacity were often puzzled by a simple Mint, and endeavour to fill up the circulation with it.- statement; their own knowledge and sagacity, which As to the alarm felt by his Hon. Friend, it was quite led them to unnecessary.refinements, opertted to de. groundless, for there could be no fear but that the feat the object they had 'in view. He agreed with Bank would keep up a sufficient quantity of notes, the Honourable Gentleman that it was desirable there as their own advantage depended upon the issue.-- should not be a deficiency on the Consolidated Fund; As to the Sinking Fund, the argutnent of himself and he trusted, at no distant time, that such an ax- and his Hon. Friend had been, "Take away all which rangement would be made, with the assistance of tends to delude the country—take away so much of , that Sinking Fund as. is not in reality an excess of Parliament, as would effectually meet the evil. This however, could not be done in the present year. The income over expenditure." Therefore he entirely Honourable Gentleman stated the deficiency to be concurred in the opinions of his Hon. Friend, that £7,000,000 or £8,000,000: in this, however, he in- they should immediately get rid of so much of the eluded the £2,600,000 that were borrowed, so that fund as, being nominal, was merely a delusion. He in fact the actual deficiency was only £5,000,000. would detain them no longer at present, as hedrould He entertained hopes that it would be made good in be shortly enabled to express his opinion more fully the course of the next year; If in the next Session upon these subjects. he found that those hopes were not likely to be rea- Mr. HUME observed, that if the worthy Alderman lized, he would submit a proposition to Parliament would refer to former cases, he would find, if he -relative to a part of it. looked at the amount of paper then in circulation, Mr. RICARDO observed, that on the sth of Jely, that, upon occasions when the heaviest loans had 1819, there was a deficiency of £8,400,000. " But," been borrowed, to the amount of £20,000,000 and said the Right Honourable Gentleman, " you have, upwards, the contracting of such a loan had. not without interest, 1:2,600,000, for which Exchequer withdrawn more than £1,000,000 from circulation ; Bills have been deposited." This he denied and he the present loan could therefore have but very little would contend that the Public bad not the advantage effect on it. of that sum. Mr. Alderman HEYGATE explained.—lt was ex ' The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, tremely difficult to say what effect this would have if that sum had not been advanced from the Conso- upon the market. lidated Fund, the difference would be, that the Bank The House resunied, and the Report was ordered would have £2,600,000 of the public money in their to be received on Monday next, in a Committee of hands, during the Quarter, which would be employed the whole House. by them for their own benefit, and not, as now, for Mr. HUME begged leave to ask one question con the benefit of the Public. netted with the business of the Committee of Ways The Resolution was then agreed to, as were also and Means. The East India Company appeared to the two preceding Resolutions, granting to the Con- have a claim upon the Government of 13,314,542. tractor, for every £lOO money, £lOO three per Cent. Did the Chancellor of the Exchequer intend to pro- Reduced, and £42.45. Console. vide for this in the Ways and Means of the year ? On the Resolution being put, relative to the dis- 'the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, in count to be allowed on an anticipation of the period reply, said, that be did not intend to bring forwaid of payment. any measure upon this subject, during the Session. Mr. GRENFELL rose, and, Averting to the SUSSEX ELECTION. £12,000,000 which it was proposed to take from the Mr. CCRTEIS postponed the second reading of the Sussex Sinking Fund, demanded whether it would not be ICendtaytion of Bill to Wednesday se night, at the recom better to do away that part of the machinery of the n Mr. HUSKISSON, who stated, that it was but reasonable, system altogether ? The fact was, they borrowed that those, whose rights were to bit so materially affected by the 1:12,000,000 from the Com Missioners of the National Bill, should be allowed a little time before the Bill passed through Debt ; but they must, in the first instance, advance so important a stage. those £12,000,000, to enable them to lend it—(llear, hear).—Now ' of what consequence was it to the Pub lic whether they granted that sum to the Commis sioners, to be lent back to them, or retained it them selves, in the first instance ? The system was com pletely absurd, and differed from everything that was contemplated in 1783, when the Fund was established. At present it was entirely nominal and delusive, and had no other effect but to render the finance state ments perplexed and unintelligible. The Right Hon. Gentleman had stated, that therewas a Sinking Fund of £17,000,000 ; and then, said he, " See what a fine flourishing state we are in !"—(Laughter).—But the fact was, they had left no Sinking Fund at all. They took £12,000,000 from the Fund, and £5,000,000 from the. Public, the interest of which must come out of the Sinking Fund ; for, he understood, there would be no new taxes. For his own part, he did not think the Loan contracted for this day was necessary. if would they really had a Sinking Fund, instead C 12,000,000 from the Commissioners, it of ta ld kin b: MISCELLANEOUS. Mr. BARHAM moved for a Return of the number of At tornies now practising in/the Courts of Great Session/ in Wales, together with their narnes'and places of residence.--Ord eee d. On the motion of the Carawmi.os of the Exerts: toga the other Orders of the Day were then read. Upon the reading of some of the Irish Billy Sir Jome Naw- PORT, Sir HF-IMIT PAIIIIMLL, Mr. WILLIAM PAILNELL, Sir Gsoaan Hitt, and the CiIANGiLLOS of the Exemactumi, engaged in a con versation relative to the propriety of repealing or remodelling many of the Irish llutiet ant Imposts upon the Exportation of - fine and coarse Cloths,- Books, Pictures, Statues, Salt, Hops, Coals, &c. acc. which were laid on at the period of the Union; Sir JIM* NEWPOIIII intimating his wish that the Cnamesta.os of the EXCIIEQUMR, at a future day, would originate some Motion - upon the subject, The CH ANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER declared his belief that they had not been imposed but with the grea test cue and deliberation, and observed upon the difficulty of legisl a tin g , so as to meet the many jarring interests concerned. lle H o use went isu entin t : Re a Committee onwm o dy then a . Conti of Ring's Bench N A new Writ was ordered for Oakhamptort, in the ream of Mr. ALIAWY SAYILM, who had accepted. the Chiltern Hundreds l l The other Ordt rs of the• Day were then disposed pc ai d the House adjowned till Monday. i • •