Star. — London, England, 1813-03-02 00:00:00

11111111111MNIMIIIMINIVEININNIMIMMINIENt fat the benefit of English laws, which were confined in their administration to what was called the pale. Sir John Davis, in his golden little volume, bad well described the state of Ireland under that system. He tonjuied the House at length to abolish this second and remaining pale, the beneficial effects a which, he confidently anticipated, would not fall short of those which resulted from the first estension to all the inhabitants of that country of the advantages of British justice. He trusted that they would look, aot at the partial wishes or interests of the'Petitioners, but take an enlarged view of the rights, the claims, and the interests of all—keeping in view, and acting I. up to the spirit of the old constitutional doctrine, sea asisiasiss: milli stegabienu, aulli &Plow junitiass. Mr. W ELLESLEY POLE observed, that, after the able discussion which this subject had undergone, he should not have felt himself called upon to state the grounds of his opinion, had not the question pre sented itself to his view in a situation Materially dif ferent from that in which it was placed in the pre ceding Session. He thought it of very great impor. tance that this situation should be clearly perceived, and accurately understood :—ln the course of that Session, the question was discussed at three different periods; and, in the last, it was resolved by that House, that the consideration should be entered into early in the following Session. Had not the dissolu „ tion of that Parliament taken place (an event, he be lieved, generally unexpected), the proposition now I before the House must have been entertained—(Hear, ' hear, hear.)—But, although the resolution of the last could not bind the present Parliament, yet he was sure they were entitled to very great weight, since expectation had been excited in Ireland, and hopes encouraged, the disappointment of which would be ! felt severely. The st ate of the question, as it affected 'e the feelings and opinions of the Irish people, de ' vended on the transactions that had taken place in the course of the last year between the Catholic Com mittee and the Government. It had been his part to complain of the misrepresentations employed in de scribing the measures to which Government then found it expedient to resort. He had complained, because the object of Administration never had been to prevent or put clown Petitions, but had been con fined to guarding against the influence of a large and powerful body sitting in the form of a Convention, and representing the three estates of the Irish Catho lic body. A great ferment was undoubtedly excited through a great mass of the population ; but the issue of those measures and discussions had concluded by the following results. In the first place the Commis tee had been suppressed, and a Board established in its place, very different in numbers and Constimtion, but still more difficult in its tone and temper. Its condnct had accordingly" been different likewiie. They now met peacefully and legally, and the gene ral sentiments of the Catholic population had at length been satisfactorily ascertained. The effect of this was, that the assertions of those who declared that the present question was viewed with indifference by the greater proportion of the Catholics in Ireland, had been contradicted.—(Hear, hear.)—lt had, shown that what was called emancipation, was re. garded as anxiously by the meanest peasant as by the higher orders.—( Hear, hear,)—The Protes tants also finding she Catholics alive to their own interests, began to re-consider the subject, and now desired only that adequate securities should be pro vided. He knew that in the county of Fermanagh, And a few other counties, the old prejudices still existed in their former violence. The language of the Catholics was not always quite satisfactory, but too much vehemence of expression could not jus tify them in refusing to legislate on a question so im portant to the rights of the subject and the interests Of the Empire. For twelve years this subject had been refused to be entertained, but in consequence of one melancholy event, which every honest man must deplore, his Noble Friend himself (Castle reagh), who had in the same Session declared that the question could not be considered without incon venience, was induced to give his support to the mo tion of his Right Honourable Friend (Mr. Canning.) He regretted, howeyer, that this was not considered as a Cabinet measure, that Government should have no plan to propose, and that his Noble Friend should have deemed it expedient to pass the whole Session without. preparing or maturing any measure for the final adjustment of the question—Vicar, hear.) He hoped the Noble Lord would be able to furnish some cogent reason for so important an omission. He de nied that the majority of Irish Protestants were hos tile to the claim ; and mentioned King's County, as well as his own, in which the Protestant mind had , ntrdergone a material alteration. He did not accuse the Irish Government, and fully acquitted the Duke of Richmond of attempting to influence petitions.— He was himself, by birth, connexion and residence, iatimately acquainted with Ireland, and well in formed of the prevailing sentiment on this subject in that country. His Right Honourable Friend (Mr. Fitegerald), who had the same opportunities, agreed with him in his view of this question, but his other half (Mr. Peele) had come to an opinion unfavour able to the Catholic claims, and could see the proba ble destruction of the State in the employment of a cathcilic officer. No man in Ireland, after what had passed in the few last months, believed that this question could lie still, although some, a Right Ho nonrable and Learned Friend, for example, under the gallery (Dr. Duigenan) and the Orange party in general, might Think that it would not be unwise to re-enact some of those statutes which had been re-' pealed—( Hear, hear.) Sir (continued the Right Ho nourable Member) I have no difficulty whatsoever in saying that we must re-enact those penal laws which have been repealed, or we must free the Catholics from the fetters light or heavy by which they are still galled. Sir, the Chancellor a the Irish Exchequer has said that we should not treat with the• Catholics, that we should legislate for them. If by this expres lion the Right Honourable Gentleman means that be think‘ it unproper to have any consultation with persons, in the confidence of the Catholic body, and delegated by them to manage their affairs, I totally disagree with him. It is impossible that any ar rangement can be useful which has not such confe rence for its, basis; there is no light in my opinion which we should refuse to have thrown on this most impoctaat question, whether resulting from the deli. berilinos of the petitioning parties or our own most cautious and anxious investigation, the result of tir . biob 104 iit lay opinion be, that the Catholics have ~..+itl~~.r. „ . . as good a right its Weaves to all State, provided they can give edherenee to its interests ; so that right—(Hearasor.) Sir, a Right 'tleman on the other side of the ” entire the legitimate claim of a bla Gentleman who owed - 17 ie most appropriately termed use oracle of the - Catholic body. He stated in his speech on a former night 01 this debate that he would not wish the restrictions tube removed from the Catholics without some sem-, aity being afforded to the established religion. I was extremely pleased, Sir, to hear this from the Right Honourable Gentleman, drawing, as I do, from it, a most agreeable presage, that the day of mutual concession and consequent concord is fast approach.. ing. It is difficult td say what may be the natant of the measures which would be recommended by a Committee with respect to this momentous question. but in . its present state we have every reason to sup pose that they would be satisfactory to all parties, and that agreeable hypothesis would hAve been strengthened if their deliberations were to be carried on beneath the lights which might have been thrown -on it, by a well-matured plan, which might have been arranged in the Cabinet, in the coarse of the summer. But let us, Sir, for a moment contem plate the probable result of the present motion being refused in England—indeed I am not prepared to sa7 what it may be, but I know very 'well what it will be in Ireland. Sir, the two great officers of the 'lrish Government are completely opposed in opinion on this great question. The Chancellor of the Irish Exchequer, in _a very eloquent speech, has informed the - House, that it is unsafe to keep the Catholics 'ln their present state—while, on the other hand, the Right Hon. Secretary is of opinion t that it would be dangerous to acquiesce in their claims. Now, Sir, when these Gentlemen return to the performance of their respective duties in Ireland, what a singular state• ofthings must be the consequence of this discrepancy in their views! We will suppose that disturbances take place in the county of Tipperary, and the advice of the Chancellor of the Exchequer is asked as to the best means of quelling them, what will be the answer of the Right Hon. Gentleman ? Why, certainly, he will exclaim, " I foretold all this, what else could you look for after rejecting the wholesome admonitions you have received upon the subject r' The Right Hon. Secretary, on the contrary, will per. haps, recommend a Special Commission. It will then be a question, who is to be sent down to con duct the prosecutions ? The Attorney. General, in all probability, will be engaged in avocations which will not admit of his attendance, and the Solicitor- General, Mr. Buslie, must be applied to—what will be his answer to such an application ? He will natu rally say, " I am surprised that you should require my co-operation in such a husinesss as this; But what does not at all surprise me, is the state of things that has produced the application. .Did not I assert that it must be the result of your obitinate adherence to an erroneous and dangerous system ?"—(ilersts of laughter and loud crier o f Hear, Hear.) In this st a t e o f Mr. B ushe's feelings, the Right Hon. Gentleman at the head of the Irish Government will, at whatever inconvenience, be obliged to avail himself of the ser vices of Mr. Sanrin, the Attorney-General—in him, indeed, he will rind a man after his own* heart.— (Loud /atighrer.) • I really do not seek to elicit the mirth of the House ; a division in the Cabinet may be ludicrous ; but it we contemplate its probable et. fects, they are calculated to produce nought but grief and dismay. I have described in the future Cabinet, dissentions which I have contemplated in the spirit of the Duke of Richmond's Administration ; there is no brands of the public service which that Noble man has not attempted to reform, whether necessary or not, and infinite vexation has been the conse quence. Sir, I must again express my inability to con ceive how the Right Honourable Secretary and the Right Honourable Chancellor of the Exchequer will arrange on their return to Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) — Sure I am that they will not be long in that country before they find that the present system must be aban doned. Since I have given up the offices I held un der the Government, a great alteration has taken place in the aspect of affiirs. ( Hear, and laughter.) I, Sir, am not the only person who have changed my opinion or. this subject. My Noble Friend who is still acting in the Cabinet has also changed his.—i (Hear, hear.) While I remained in office, I did net think it expedient to bring forward the measure of which lam now the advocate. (Hear, hear.) But I was of the same opinion as my colleagues in office ; we thought the time had not arrived when it would be expedient to bring it forward, and we were unani mous in thinking so. We did not exhibit the spectacle of a Cabinet distracted by jarring Counsel, such as that of which the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Irish Exchequer is a member. I have nothing, Sir, to add, but that if the Claims of the Catholics go to a Committee I shall use every assistance in my power to promote the views of my Right Hon. Friend, in deducing such measures as shall at once tend to the conciliation of all classes of his Majesty's subjects, and to the providing effectual security for tke Pro testant Church as by law established. 1 The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER for Ireland (Mr. Fitzgerald) explained, observing, that if the Right Hon. Gentleman supposed that he was averse to any communication with the Catholic body, he must have adopted such a notion from some very vague and indistinct report of the speech he had delivered in the course of the present debate, which he was satisfied he could not have heard. Far from entertaining the opinion imputed to him, he concei ved that constant, confidential, and affectionate com munication with the Catholics was necessary to pro mote a beneficial adjustment•of the present question. The Right Hon. Gentleman had reasoned not from what he had said, but from whet he had not said, by the cheer which had drawn forth some of the Right Hon. Gentleman's remarki. He did not mean to impute to him any dereliction of principles i but he could not help now saying, that however great the dissonance of opinion between him and his Right Hon. Colleague, upon which he (Mr. Pole) had ob served so freely, it was perfect concord, when com pared to the manner in which the Right Hon. Gen tleman differed from himself—(heM., 4w r .) • Mr. PEELE....." The Right Hon. Gentllman, Sir, in the very extraordinary parallel which he has drawn between himself on the one hand and me, to gether with my Right HOn. Friend, on the other, is at least correct in one peitit of similittide 3 which wa4 ire eranot, fa in discrepancy present way of on. Friend.that The Right Hon. his having acted, cooling* _ the views of the Cabinet of which he was a member ; and has contras, 'ted the unanimity of that Cabinet with the disunion of the present, in which men act finis the impulse of their own sentiments. I differed in opinion, says the Right Hon. Gentleman, from the Duke of Richmond, but I acted in obedience to his commands, and sa crificedtnyivate judgment. Now, Sir, that this self-congratulation is built upon just grounds, is what I can by no means allow. It would, in my opinion, have been the more natural mode of pro ceeding, if, when he found that he could not hold his situation in the Cabinet without the sacrifice of which he has boasted be had relinquished it—( hear, bear.)-- But, Sir, it will be recollected, that the opinions which were delivered in this House by the Right Hon. Gentleman, were not expressed in that 'tacit. lating manner which would give rise to the notion that they were borrowed from a superior, and not the genuine emanation of his own mind. He loudly af firmed, that no mode of reconciliqg the Catholics pre sented itself to his mind, and that to extend to them the privileges they claimed was impossible. I wish from my soul I had the speech to produce in which these opipions are recorded.—(Hear !)—Now, Sir, with respect to the dissolution of the body which the Right Hon. Gentleman has called the Catholic Con vention, and the dissolution of which he has attribut— ed to measures adopted by the Government while he was in office I must observe, that this body is cone sternly re-elected by an ag meeting of the Ca tholics, who, skulking befril a rlie law, are enabled to re-elect them in consequence of that acquiescence of the Government to which the Right Hon. Gentle man attributes such good effects, Among these ef fects as viewed by the Right Hon. Gentleman, by no means the least singular, is the favourable dispo, sition which he alleges is calculated towards the Ca tholics by the Protestants of Ireland ; but this is ob viously a misconception, the Petitions of the Pro testants have, without doubt, originated from the Re solution of the House of Commons to take the claims of the Catholics into consideration. The purport of that resolution, it will be recollected, nos, that the House would go into a Committee with a view to such a final adjustment of the question as would sa tisfy the Protestants, and conciliate all classes of his Majesty's subjects. Now, Sir, let me ask what pro bability is there of the ends being obtained if a simi lar resolution was to be adopted by the existing House of Commons ? If the present motion is agreed to, will it be an easy task to secure the established religion, and shall we satisfy all classes of his Majesty's sub jects ? Sir, I will read a Resolution of the Catholics, which will have the effect, I am convinced, of ren dering that very problematical in the mind of every unprejudiced person who hears it. [The Right Hon. Secretary here read the resolution ; it stated, that the Catholics had beard with surprise and indignation,' that certain persona had preferred petitions to the Le-'• gislature, praying that their claims might be refused, unless they would give some pledge for the security of the church, as by law established ; that they were determined to resist every such measure as the peti tioners contemplated, considering the proposing of it to be an insult to their religion and to their pride, and to appeal from the decision of a small and insignifi cant faction.] —This resolution," continued the Right Hon. Gentleman, was passed at a meeting of the Catholics in Kilkenny, and the body which it brands with the title of an insignificant faction will be found, I trust, to include a majority of this House. Now, Sir, a Right Hon. Gentleman. opposite has stated, that he has a plan in contemplation which shall de stroy all distinctions between the different sects into which the inhabitants of these countries are divided ; hut when he is asked what securities can be given for the maintenance of the Established Church, he has nothing .to reply. The Right Hon. Gentleman would have all that part of the Bill of Rights re. pealed which goes to exclude Catholics from the high offices of the State, but would retain that part oUit which excludes them from the Throne. Sir, we do not want to have this act, venerated as it is by those of whose liberties it has been the safeguard, new mo delled. We do not want to see a clause introduced into it, recognizing the Protestant establishment.We do not want to see any change in it which shall entitle it to the appellation of Mr. Grattan's Act, passed in the 53d year of his Majesty King George 111. But it seems that we Protestants are henceforward to be designated as sectaries- Hear , hear, from the Oppo sition Benches)—actu by the invidious spirit of sectaries.—(Hear, hear.)—You, says the Right Ho. nourable Gentleman, addressing the Protestants, are sticklers for a sect. —(Hear, hear.)—The Catholics are petitioners for law..—(Hear, hear.)—Sir, it is not the fact, they are petitioners for the abolition of the law, which we wish to preserve in its integrity. lam not disposed to deny that there are excrescences in the present system, which might be lopped off with advantage to the whole ; but the system itself it is very desirable to retain.—Sir, from the eloquence and ability displayed by the Right Hon. Gentleman who spoke at an early period of the present debate, and who received so much and such well-merited ap plause, I derived much gratification; but whatever tribute of praise I may be disposed to pay him on the score of talent, I would more willingly do justice to his sincerity; Sir, I know if he had acted a different part from what he has done, he might have been more popular than he is. I k now that if he had ap proved of the Catholic claims without restrictions—if , he had approved of the violence of the Catholi c s, h e ' might have enjoyed the sorry pm-eminence to which others have aspired. I know he Might have been conveyed from Back-lane to the Castle with all the honours of a Procession, if he had had as strong a desire for popularity as the Bishop of Norwich.— (Hear, hear, from the Opposition.)—l can tell the House, moreover, that he disdained the honours con. ferred at the orgies of the Black Abbey, where the health of the Prelate whom I have already mentioned was drank ; and what, Sir, were the toasts which ac companied it; 64 The Marquis of Wellington, and may he cease to be an instrument by his Victories to continue the degradation of Irishmen."— (No, es, from the Opposition.)—" Mr. Cobbett and an inde pendent Press." —(No, sin, again. )—I protest, Sir, that I have made a faithful Raiment, accerslini to I • . N Ido -41111 a 1441 1:- . •1s hie 4eadeso46. re see2 . l l ll6 9 7hia: Ihpersqral softy. 1 at the loth Um a ase dop(df kagh.) 'Ha y ht HonowiablskOW • gis that of say Rik . bt Hon. House, who saving k Ka. has formless is mine. Tbf another Right Ho- Gentleman, Sit. has boasted of his 1 the debate, may be whilst its office, in coafermivf-with thi -- "T $ Be*mpg, *teen of the proceedings to which il have adverted. Sir, there was a time which would supply a precedent far moderate persons who did not wish to be involved in proceedings of this nature. if say there were moderate enough to wish to escape beech them. In 1791, when the Catholics disgraced drasselves by similar violence*, several Nollemen aid Gentlemen withdrew from the body and resolve to lay a mad, but by no means degrading Address. at the foot of the Throne. They preferred claims— did not demand rig hts : they did not point out what they would have, but left every thing to the car.. dour of the Legislature. Will the House, aware as they are of this, believe me when I say that among the names of those who countenanced the proceedings of so opposite a nature, a notion et which I have endeavoured to convey to them, are to be found those of Fingal, Gormacttown Km mare. Goold, and Troy ? But to revert to the plat, of the Right Honourable Gentleman, he is willing tc exclude Catholics from the Throne, though he cnn. tends for the necessity of admitting them into the other two branches of the Legislature. Now, Sir, I protest I cannot see more expediency in the one excle • sion than the other. A. Catholic, according to the system of the Right Hon. Gentleman, cannot be King of Great Brirain, but he can become Lord Chancellor, and in that capacity, keeper of the con. science of a Protestant Sovereign ; he might become Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, and have the disposal of livings in the Established Church. I am aware of the answer that will be made to all this ; it will be contended, that there will be no obligation on the Crown to appoint Catholics to those offices, Sir, i say, that if the Catholic is systematically excluded from them when he might hold them by law, there will be somethipg invidious in his exclusion which cannot exist in the present state of things • the Crown will be subjected to obloquy which would be well avoided. The Right Honograble Gentleman exultingly asked who fought at Cressy and Agin, court, were they not Catholics ? Sir, they certainly were so. but who commanded in those celebrated actions ? WAS it not 4 Catholic Monarch ? And would not therefore the argument involved in the question of the Right Hon. Gentleman go to the ad mission of a Catholic to the throne as well as to in ferior oftees ? Might he not appeal to the reign of 4 Sovereign SP glorious for England, and ask, was Ed- ward 111. a monarch who was unfit to fill the throne; The Right Hon. Member then went on to admit that the grievances under which the Catholics labou red were not many. but again insisted on the incon gruity of having Catholic servants employed by a Protestant Sovereign. He assumed that no argui merit could be drawn in favour of Catholics from the state of Canada, when the Crown held the nomi nation of the Catholic Bishops, which. was refused in Ireland, and stated that when Catherine of Russia had admitted to the formation of a Catholic Bishopric in her territories, she had, with much jealousy, reserved to herself the nomination of the person who was to fill the see; and contended, that any further concession would be counter to the principles of the Revolution. /He admitted that Papists were not excluded froni Parliament in 1688 ; but assumed, that the Irish Par. liament having passed an Act, in 1697, excluding any Protestant who should marry a female of that persuasion, thereby virtually acknowledged the autho, rity of an English Act, passed in 1692, by which they were excluded. The Irish Catholics, he said, if they were represented by persons of their own body, could not have abler advocates than they had. Nu Catholic ]Member for Waterford could be more zealous in their cause, than the Honourable Baronet opposite (Sir John Newport) ; nor could any Catholic kepresen. tative for Tipperary be louder than the Honourable General (Mathew)—(.l laugh)—whose disapproba tion of the Irish Government was, in his apprehen sion, the highest compliment they could receive." The Right Hon. Secretary having then insisted on the reluctance of the Catholics to admit of a dome. tic nomination of Catholic Bishops, concluded with expressing his opinion, that the Petition; on the Table preferred by Protestants, howevei lightly they might be treated, clearly sheered that they never would be contented if the claims of the Catholics were ac quiesced in, The Hon. Mr. WARD observed + that a reply to the arguments of those who opposed the Catholic Claims seemed almost unnecessary for two reasons ; the first because those arguments had been so often urged and answered; the second, because owing . to the rapid and salutary progress of public opinion. they had lost the greater part of the bold which they formerly appeared - lo have on the judgment of Pare liament. Unquestionably, the comparative situation of the Catholic cause twenty years ago, and at ;he present period, was a most satisfactory subject aeon. templation. Twenty years the claims of the Ca tholics were not only rejected by • the Irish Pedlar merit, but were alledged to be too absurd to be enter tained for a single moment. Since that time s the prejudice against them had been graduilly dissipa• ting • and he trusted, that the moment was now ar? rived, when the good sense of the Legislature would induce them to consent to their final and concil;atory adjustment. So favourable indeed had become the public feeling towards the Catholics, that the question now was, not whether emancipation should be gran ted, hut how long it should be delayed ? for the Anti-tatholic must be ill read in the signs of the times, who could flatter himself with the hope of a permanent and successful resistance. It was a sub ject, the popularity of which bad increased in every Session of every succeeding Parliament, until, at length, in the last year, and chat too under extrinsic circumstances of a most unfavourable nature, tl;ti grand principle of the necessity of emancipation we established by a large and triumphant majority. It was indeed a principle, which had received the sanc tion of almost all the great men that this country had produced, It had received the sanction of a Burke and a Fox. It received the sanction of the greater part of the illustrious statesmen who still survived. — If it were a question to be determined by authority alone scepticism itself would be confounded by the dazzling lustre of those splendid names that were arranged in its support. But it was not in the ranks of the great and enlightened alone that the most friendly dispositions had evinced themselves toward the Catholic cause. It was generally popular q even among that class of society by which it had heretofore 1 been encountered by the most violent and fanaticel opposition. An Hon. Gentleman had, in an earl Part (lithe dibaw,arpearld disrositd to coli&hten th 1; ,