Star. — London, England, 1812-06-12 00:00:00

t it Ili m ust could m ob i l abject coup. be. ob.Wneti, unless 8 at the same lame prevail on those No o li t ' Lads to a c c ept of officO. It Was folly to talk of • be t talents being pu bl i c proper t y—no U f a /0 d into tie public service against his inclina tioit_ana dahose Nbble Lords were convinced they Could not , under the existing circumstances, consci enaaesly accept of office, an Address of the House ootild not remove thote conscientious scruples, al though i t might become an additional obstacle to ac -comodation between the parties. He did not con cave that the House, by their former Address, wet e p a ce d in any dilemma at all, unless, indeed, it were that, notwal , .standing all which might happen, " s p th e y might hear—all they might see—and all they surenise—they might still go on addressing, have fresh negociations, which could only have a s imilar termination to those which were past. He t o ped the Hasse, by getting rid of the different mo tions now before it, would come to a decision, aye et no, as to the efficiency or ineffpency of the present Administration. Lord YARMOUTH bore testimony to the efforts which had been made in a high quarter, for the pur pose of obtaining the services of certain Noble Lords ad Right Hon. Gentlemen ; no sacrifice had been thought too great far that purpose. The demanded ma il t e of the Household was to a greater extent d im had ever been kdown on the formation of any err Admioistration, or even on the commencement e f a new reign ; yet, when it was insisted on, himself sad other persons, holding offices, had, by the medium afa certain Right Hon. Gentleman, communicated so the Noble Lords alluded to their readiness to re pie, —(Hear, hear !)—and only requested that they e a ght have notice ten minutes previous to the Seals king delivered to :hose Noble Lords, that hey might resign; that it might nor appear to the country as if their Royal Master had been obliged to turn them out—(Hear, hear.)—And he declared before Con, be believed the only reason for those Noble Lords, for insisting on their power of appointing the Officers tithe Household, as a preliminary, was, that they might have the power of putting this humiliation on , the present Household.— (Loud and continued trice of ber, hear.) Mr. PONSONBY arose, and said that he hoped the House would submit with patience to the length of time he was imperiously necessitated to employ in the vindication of his Noble Friends and of himself, from the misconceptions under which it appeirene veral of the House laboured respecting their late con duct. He had hearkened to expressions of a dubious complexion, employed by the Noble Lord (Yarmouth) sad which he had assured the House, passed his lips for the first time. Wto the Right Hon. Gentleman men tioned by the Noble Lord was, who po'sessed such .transcendent talents, who was such delightful con:- ray, he could not conjecture, butle would affirm, a the names of my Lords Grey and Grenville, that so tonject ure or assertion was ever made so erroneous- II than that those Noble Persons determined to have the Household Officers dismissed for the sole purpose Gambling that person to whom all respect was slue. Be was certain, that no• Right Honourable Gentle mu of his acquaintance c..ricerned in the negociation to which he was himself admitted, would have for- - borate bad any such conversation happened, to have immediately communicated it. Many persons were presein now uho happened to be in company at that time, upon whom he called to contradict him: had he been guilty of any misrepresentation. There was a pan of the Noble Lord's affirmations to which he contemplated no immediate answer, which was the principle upon which the responsible adeisers of the Criiwn sought to contioul his Royal Highness by amens of the Household ; to this he would advert to _wards the conclusion of his speech. Passing those . ppininns for the present, he would proceed to relate Occurrences as they happened in a train, with as much dispatch and accuracy as possible. Upon the 2 lst of lilt month, tie Parliament, upon the motion of the IhMoui able Gentleman opposite, came to a resolution to address cis Royal Highness to form a more strong and efficient Administration, so that the great con cerns of the nation might be dispatched-with -ability and con &fence. That.Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Wortley) he now saw opposite to him, he had been accused of concerting the motion mutually between them, and he called upon that Hon Gentleman to de clare upon his unsullied and spotless honour,as a Gen tleman,whether he had ever made any such communica tion, either with himself ar w th those in whom he lived • in the intimacy I f private and political ti iendship. The motion of the Address did not emanate from the side of the House on which he had the honour of sitting, neither elk it find its strongest support, from those persons usually denominated Members. of the Oppo sition. It was nut laboriously patronized by the Op position ; too Gentlemen' only rose and delivered their opinions ; for had any such desire been mani fested, the Hon. Gentleman would have occupied a pound in appearance more tenable when Ile chose to assert that they were not labaurin'g to get people from power but to get themselves into it. He never recollected any question of such importance front Which there were so many of Opposition absent; le intimation was so short, that Gentlemen who 'rite at 'a distance had nest time to receive intelli gence of it ; an d t h e Mi n i ster ial s id e o f t h e H ouse had the honour of passing a vote of incapacity upon the Ministry almost rat ithout the participation of the Opposition. He begged to say for his friends and for himself;that they had no secret—no reserve upon the subj ect ; the 'more extensive .the capacities were which the Administration could admit, the more .Would they beogratifid, and th e country assisted. It bad been impressed upon the people's minds by the tote of the House, that a coarst a ion of ptiblic men, of hitherto dissonant parties, was to take place, and it a strong Administration, fulfilling the . expectancy of the nation, would be the consequence. It certainly Was the wish of all those pe rsons wish whom he lived in friendly habits, to oalesce with the other tentlemen whom igh t be called to the Administration. It *as the determination of his two Noble Friends and of himself to act with any men who could unite corai a na . ti e upon some of the great and pendin g ques et Present in -agitation in the public mind. They Were desirous to cast 'heir portion of assistance into the Frand politica balance, and aid all the resplendent ta lents whi c h came to the suppo r t o f t h e Government, w hen the for 'nation 'of such an Administration was "fruited to the capacity of his Noble Friend (the 144. • (14 "vellesle. y) that Noble permi t requested the 111114aage 411 4 two Noble Friends (Grer and Gnu , vile) infotming them, that all pat 4 predileettohs were suppressed, and a general union of talents was to take place for the furtherance of the common cause of their country. When a call had been made upon those Noble persons, in a manner to which they were obliged to declare that they could not concede, the public had a right to know upon what grounds they made their resistance ; therefore, for the purpose of vindica- Link their characters from all misconception, he begged Indulgence - from the House to narrate the correspon dence in the order in which it had happened. Upon the 23d of last month, the Marquis Wellesley communica- , ted to Lords Grey and Grenville the plan of an Ad. ministration, adapted, as it was described, to the pre sent posture of affairs. The Noble Marquis said that he had been entrusted,by his Royal Highness,to collect together an Administration of strength and character, for the more happy dispatch of public affairs, but in which he did not desire to take any situation.— This Administration Was to be totally unmarked by political dissensions. In the first place, the claims of the Roman Catholids were to be brought to a si tuation of adjustment and conciliation ; and in the ) second place, the war upon the Peninsula was to be ! carried on in a more extensive scale of enterpi ize, by an augmentation of the British Armies in Spain and PortugaL Throughout all that communication to his Noble Friends, the Marquis had not stated that he, had any, authority to form an Administration at that very time. He communicated only the views intended to be entertained by the coalition of parties. Upon the 24th of May, without either cavilling or delay, the Lords Grey and Grenville dispatched the following answer :•g4 That they considered it to he the paramount duty of public men to abandon any -object capable of promoting personal animosity, so that efficient effect might be given to the vote of Ad dress moved by the House of Commons to his Royal Highness ; an Administration capable of sustaining the country successfully against the imminent peril in which it appeared to be placed, was what they de sired watch to see; they had no disposition to cavil at the admission of different parties. Respecting the measures supposed to be the determination of the new Government to adopt, they had formerly expressed pretty amply their opinions upon the Catholic claims. and in which they delighted to find they had the concurrence of the Noble Marquis himself. They would willingly support any motion i.f any person that would lead to a conciliazory adjustm int of the differences, without which, they found it introssible to contribute their aid. In the next place they were of opinion, that the direction of military operations was a question of policy not of principle : All un stable fluctuating scene of operations, which expand ed or contracted, according to the capacity or in clination of the country ; but they believed that a careful hand to watch .;ver the public expenditure, at a period like the present, would not he unacceptable to the nation." A communication of the same na ture having been made to another cpt,irter, Lord Grey believed that he perceived some difference be. tween the one submitted to himself and the other, which he deemed to be important. He accordingly wrote to the Noble Marquis, informing hint of the • distinction which he apprehended had been made, and requested an explanation. Upon the receipt c f the letter, Marquis Wellesley immediately transmitted an answer,which cleared up all misapprehensions, and re stored the natural good understanding between them. Matters pas s ed on without any further notification until the first day of June, when Marquis Welksley wrote to his Noble Friends, informing them, that he had received ample authority to arrange an Admini stration, and was specially aulioriied to communi cate with them upon that subject ; informing them of the names of those persons designed to foim the Administration. It was proposed, that if twelve were nominated to the Cabinet, his Royal Highness was to have the disposal of five of them ; and should thirteen be found necessary, of these six were to be of the appointment of his Royal Highness. The Noble Lords considered the whole arrangement with due deference, and, in a consultation, they concluded upon the following answer :—" That they had con templated the whole scheme with much attention, which had been submitted to them ; that they were not deterred either from t h e distressed situation of the public, nor from the influences of private feeling, from accepting of the offiTs which had been made to them of being employed, where they might have been serviceable to their country ; but it appeared to them, that a stipulated number of Cabinet Coun cillors, to be retained for nomination by his Royal HighneSs, was a violation of the Address, for , forming a strong and efficient Administration ; i nor could they perceive any hope of balancing the Cabinet with propriety, by such a stipulation. A Cabinet appeared to be a body of Councillors, fas tened together by mutual reliance upon each other's capacities and integrity, possessing also the confidence of the Crown and a concurrence in public measures; but no hope of such a Cabinet was presented to them by the plan submitted, and a certain deterioration of character in their own estimation and in that of the Public would undoubtedly follow their acceptance of offices under such regulations." This explanation was so broad and so ample, that it anticipated almost all that he had to say upon the subject. The Crown had hitherto been in the habit of summoning in able men to its Councils, hut such a proposal as that was of a nature so dissonant, that the first glance at it repulsed the mind, let it have been ever so prone to political compliance. For it took for granted, that a certain system of opposite interests would display themselves in the Cabinet, and attempted toriise abar rier against imaginary:terrors. The first principle of a Cabinet was mutual confidence of its Members in each other, a sound Political agreement, and total abhor rence of all jealousy and distinct interests. The an swer of the Noble Lords having been dispatched to thy Lord Wellesley, no further correspondence took place under the auspices of the Prince Regent. But his Noble Friend, the Earl of Moira, returned a pri. vate answer upon the 3d of June, wherein he lamented that a negociation promising such happiness to the country should be broken off upon points—and hoping that no blame could be attached to him ; that letter was written with the accustomed frankness and cour tesy of the Noble Earl, but unhappily it was not ex opinions of a higher authority than, hiorpn. Pr ln e a s ts g ter to which, Eafi Grey immediately wrote that they were anxious to assist in the Government, but for the failure of the negotiatio ns they imputed no blame to the Noble Ear l ; they discovered an utter imeoseibilky of compl7rbg withlhgreq uei t u r a 813164 prinenples. Upon the 4th of iune I 5 - d Ck•ey received a letter froth the Noble Lord, saying that he had received an est:A:orator* letter from Lo d 'Ci-ey, with whin!' he was gratified. He was not au a that his Royal Highness had given further orders fur a renewal of the negotiations, a circumstancewhich I:e deeply lamented,as a verysuccessful explanation might hare been made. He would be happy that under the sanction of the Regenthe had received a commission so conciliatory as to have effected the purpose for which they negotiated. Lord Grey wrote an answer; in which he and Lord Grenville professed a readi. ness to comply with any desire of a conciliatory nature which his Royal Highness might transmit. Soon afterwards, under the authority of the Regent, a meeting took place between Lords Grey and Gren ville on th e o n e s ide, and th e Earl of Moira, in which Lord Erskine was present, upon the other. This was at Sr. James's-place, on the 6th June. The Earl of Moira informed him that he was authorized to arrange a Government, and was desired to con sult with, their Lordships upon the plan. After mentioning these concessions upon the Catholic claims, they enquired whether or not the contem plated Ad miatistration was to be furnished with a greater extent of authority over the great Officers of the Household than what the former projected Ad-- ministration was projected to have, and which was usually granted in new political arrangements ; to which the Earl of Moira answered, that the Regent had given him no information upon the sulsject, nor had even hinted at such a concession. Upon this the Noble Lords refused to accept of any offices in which they would not be permitted the power to give stability to the new arrangements. , The consultation closed, with mutual expressions of regret. Upon the whole, then, what authority had j .he Noble Lord ( Yarmouth) to say th it the remo vals in the Household were greater tit in before me ditated upon any change of Administration?—(Cries set .‘ No! no!") —To give strength and efficacy to ally Government—a mutual concurrence and agree-1 • went in principles upon which it is framed —next, a good understanding with the Crown—and, lastli, a good and sound character to each Member compos ing the Administration, and a countenance of honour and a heart of integrity in the eyes of the people.— These qualifications only gave strength and efficiency to a Government. His Noble Friends had been rashly blamed for hastily breaking up the negotiations, but it was not their blame that they listened to them. If an* blame could be attached, it %%veld be with the Noble Marqu.s and Earl Maras who submitted plans of Governments, without having well weighed the principles of the Constitution. Such principles as were held to be fundamental, and established firmly at the glorious Revolution. It was a violation of those principles which lost the House of Stuart the Crown. The King, by the law of the Constitution, was an irresponsible person, who was however under pro mise to employ confidential persons to support his go vernment and counsel him in the exercise °flits preroga tive. The House of Stuart told the Parliament that it possessed no right to ii•terfere in those matters of state, and by an unconstitutional resistance to the Parlia ment, compelled the people to dethrone them, and place a more deserving family on the Throne. Al- I though the Crow n had the prerogative to dismiss its servants when it thought proper, nevertheless it was bound to accept of coon ;el from the persons employed under it. The Right Hon. Gentleman then proceeded to enumerate the various changes of Administration from 1786 to the present day, in every erne of which the change of the Officers of the Household took place as a necessary part of the measures of such Ad ministrations The Noble:Lords (Grey and Grenville) therefore, only desired to ki.ow it vie) , were to be per mined to use the same powers usual upon the change of every Administration. There was not, therefore, any thing so very extraordinary or extravagant in this request. The Noble Lord (Moira) answered, that although uninstru:ted upon this point, yet he I himself thought, upon public grounds, it could not be asseeted to. What then would the Public or the Parliament have thought of these Noble Lords, if they had conic into orrice upon a refusal of the ex ercise of the same powers which were permitted to all other Administrations? What could be more de structive, wnat could be more opposite to the princi ples of the Constitution, than that die executive offi ces of the State should be under one controul, and the Officers of the Ca curt under another ? What would be thought of them, if they had condescended to abandon this principle, a principle hitherto sheaving no distincti:n between the great Officers of the State, and the great Officers of the Crown. But were these Noble Lords justified by any thing that passed, in abandoning those principles which had been insisted upon by all their predecessors? For although the House had voted an Address for a strong and efficient Administration, this. first proposal was not very likely to attain that most desirable object. They were never honoured by a personal interview with his Royal Highness the Prince Regent.;--(Hear, hear,)— the ordinary and usual practice upon the formation of every new Administrat on ; but the practice upon the present occasion was quite different ; nor did the pro posal itself convey to them any pretence that they possessed the confidence of the Crown. Under what circumstances then could they have hoped to bring forward the Catholic question I In this House there had been always a majority against them upon that question, and they were determined not to form any Administration unless they could carry that ques tion. Were they then to come to this Hduse with this mark branded upon them, while in order to carry that question every mark of the confidence of the Crown was absolutely necessary.?— With respect to America the difficulties would be still greater, and from the present complexion of affairs as connected with that country, that which might have been easily adjusted two or three year; back, they might now find impossible. The third question, which related to an economical re form in the expenditure, and upon which a Bill was now pending in th at House, brought forward by an Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Bankes) on which he had been able to obtain only a majo rity of nine. Could it be expected, that a Minis. try so formed under difficulties of this sort, and not supported by the confidence of the Crown, could carry such a measure? But the odious task was to - be put upon them by first denying them the power over the Household, and granting them the more odious , task of afterwards displacing Members of Parlia- I mot kw their v*.. ILlait wore time is tbat k lave • ileitis wi'il knew the Noble tor& Were, not artnatist in this by any narrow ar riirso. ttl fii!btivet wh ~ e vers and it a union could have been med ilpon thwe principles, the House must do then' the justice to say, this they manifested every dispoSition to have the negociation forwarded. With regard. lo the pre sent motion heft re the Hotite, howeVei highly he sec spected the character of the Honourable Centlem.in who brought it forward,- yet at he understood it, it was rather a motion to keep in the present Admini stration, which the House had already voted to be inefficient ; and however they might have the power of availing themselves of any accidental aid, from any quarter from which it might come, still they were in a state of weakness and intufficiencr. The motion, he thought, did net go far enough, and he be lieved there never was an instance before of the H use voting an Address for a change of Administration, and then resting satisfied with having the sand Administration again. It was not for any accesvon of strength and efficiency they could approve of them, for there was none. It could not be from the adop ' tioa of any conciliating measures, for a Noble Lord, a Member of this Administration ( Lord'Harrowby) had declared-in another place, that they remained in office for the purpose of preventing the government from falling into the hands of thosesttliose opinions and pr:aciples had been condemned by the country ; ' m other words, to prevent the acct Itrat on of the Ca tholic claims: But it was said, the Catholic question would not be made a Cabinet measure, and if not a Cabinet measure, it never could be a Legislative one, for if they dicl not undertake this, it never could bd carried, for he never knew any great measure having a successful termination, without it was first made a Cabinet measure. Such meastireshad beencarried by the opposition, but it was after di at oppo ;i tion had been changed into an Administration, and taken into the service of the Crown. Were they to come to the conclusion, that the Government had no opinion upon a question involving the pease and huppiness of one-fifth part of the empire, and upwards of four snilliens of 'his Majesty's subjects If he was wrong in•this, then most happy should he be to set his opinion erroneous, and the conduct of the Cabinet contradicting his predictions. Under these circum stances, be hoped his Noble Friends (Grey and Grenville) stood acquitted from any wish to Mono polize power to themselves; tb it they stood acquit ted of any wish to hurt the feelings of any person whatever, but, above all, the Illustrious Persenaee so uflen alluded to ; they were incapable any such motives; they had acted not on private, but public grounds. He entirely agreed in the Amendment of his Noble Friend ( Folkestone) in all fan:; at the same time he did conceive that it contained too much matter of detail for the Heuse to enter into at present.- He was, therefore, ready to vote fur the Amendment of his other Noble Friend (Lord Mil. ton), which was consistent with the dignity of the House and the principles of the Constitution. Mr. BATHURST shortly explained. Mr. CANNING observed, that the humble share whi c h it was his fortune to have had in the late tran- ' sactions, might probably lead the House to expect that he would trespass on their attention for a short time at least, on the present occasion. Indeed he felt that he had no option but to come forward to defend many .particulars of the conduct of two Noble Persons with whom he bad successively the honour to act, which had been misunderstood. In doing this he would abstain from saying any thing of him self except where it was necessary he should do se. The Righ: Hon. Gentleman had truly stated that the vote of the House of Commons, in which all the late proceedings originated, was a vote to provide a more strong and efficient Administration; but the Right Hon. Gentleman was in error, in taking it for granted, that' an Administration possessing those qua;ities could be formed only in one way; a way that would inevitably cut short the labours of auy person em- I powered to conduct the formation of it, by leavi n g him nothing to do, but to suirender his commission immediately into the hands from which he received it—namely, by giving the preponderance to the party who possessed a numerical advantage of the House of Commons. It was by no means the Marqeis Welles ley's opinion, or his, that because the party of the Noble Lords, and of the *Gentlemen opposite was nu merically larger than his ; -he should therefore be con tented to merge himself and his commission in that party. The history of the country afforded noprecedent of such a proceeding. It was true, that an Administra tion was the most strong, when it combined no con flicting principles or contrariety of opinions, when all the Members of which it consisted were of sitnilir opinions, aed had been in long previous habits of concerting together plans of public policy; but with this conviction on his mind, his Noble Friend (Lord Wellesley), when he was first authorised by the Re gent, thought nevertheless with him that it was pos. sible to form an Administration pf no inconsiderable strength, by uniting those who having differed on former politics, and differing on points of minor im portance, were agreed on subjects vitally affecting our external and internal relations. In addition to the two questions which had been selected by Lord , Wellesley as the tests on which public men might come together, it was evident that there Were others of great importance, but of more doubtful policy, on which concurring in the two principal sub jects they might be brought to agree by persttaii sion or concession. The Orders in Council for in. I stance was one of these. It did, however. appear to Lord Wellesley that the two grand objects on which it was indispensible to ascertain the sentiments of the ' new Administration, were, one, the leaning feature a' the internal policy. the other comprehending almost all the external system of the policy of the country and that having effected an union ofppinioa on those two great points, a basis would be formed sufficiently strong to bear any superstructure of other opinions that might be raised upon it. These two great gum dons were Catholic concession, and the war in the Peninsula. He admitted that the manner in which Lord Wellesley's proposition had been met by the Right Honourable Gentleman a n d his Prism& opposite, was perfectly fair and honourable...le On the subject of the Peninsula war, they had been asked whether they came with a disposition to nubs ;he carrying on of that war the principle of their policy, subject to consideration wish respect to the =EMS and ustlint l or whedaer they were dispomd so make the abandonineat of the wee !heir tt ; m i subject to consideriuiona of the . . 7 . o f *nog it ;boy bAd Ips low