Star. — London, England, 1813-03-02 00:00:00

14otse as to the Sentiments of a great statesmip, 'Mn Pitt, on 'hie:gloat important subset. After, however, „I, ; exciting considerable expectation, the %Allele turned out to be simply this that Mr. Pitt had not told somebody or other that he had formed any plan in his own mind, with respect to the mode in which the claims ought to be conceded. The fact was, that the question was never fairly at issue—it never could be brought fairly to issue—during Mr.. Pitt's life. Every one knew the obstacle that had existed to its being so. How then could it be supposed necessary that Mr. Pitt should form any detailed plan tespecting it ? EveryAxiiitical plan must vary *hit the circum stance f the moment. It would therefore have been absurd, had Mr. Pitt formed a detailed plan, which he knew it was impossible to bring forward at the time at whiCh it might have been formed, and for Which, therefore, it must have been peculiarly and ex clusively adapted. Besides, what was there in the declaration by someb o dy, that Mr. Pitt had not com municated any plan to him ? Many circumstances might bade prevented such a coMmunieation. Mach depended on the character of the individual himself. Ile mightt.hatte been a Man of a scholastic mind ; ingenious.. finding objections ; and to whom, there fore, it Would have been imprudent to communicate 2' plan, Which could uoi be expected to be free from vitlikbility to objection. Notwithstanding, therefore, the statement of the Hon. Gentleman, he (Mr, W.) could not help thinking, that the supporters of the Catholic claims were still entitled to enjoy the be ' nefit of believing, that Mt. Pitt's was a concurrent opinion. 1-lb rejoiced at this far the sake of the mea sure—he rejoiced at it perhaps still more, for the sake of ,Mr. Pin, on whose memory the imputation of hos • tililty tb Catholic liberty would in his opinion have been a Most foul and indelible stains Of what ma terials were the prejudices against the Catholics com posed t of such as in their nature could not be last ing: ,-- The opposition to Catholic emancipation must be trifling and transitory—the national bless ings which it was calculated to occasion would be great and permanent. The opposition to Catholic ematcipation arose frton causes, many of which had in a great measure ceased to exist. The first of these had been ignorance with respect to the ' state of the Catholics themselves, and the character of their faith. In a few years this would be wholly removed. The second cause of opposition had been that unfortunate predisposition in the Rdyal mind which it had been found impossible to remove, and the impulse arising from which (as must be the case, with every impulse proceedinglrom such high authority) had riot yet lost all its power, although Muth decayed and weakened. A third cause of op position, growing in a great measure out of the last, had been the steady and uniform hostility of Go. vernment to emancipation. This cause had been much diminished, and was every day diminishing. Then came to be considered all the ancient hereditary prejudices—against the Roman Catholics, founded on the events of the reign of Queen Mary, when the CathOlic religion was unquestionably a religion of persecution. But in all this he could see nothing permanent ; nothing that a little time might not di minish' to utter insignificance, if not wholly remove. If any thing further, indeed, were riecessaty to prove the different footing on which the question stood, from that on which it had stood at a former and no very distant period, it would be the altered and feeble tone of the enemies of the emancipation ; no doubtful evidence of their anticipation of failure. Some of the most favourite arguments that they had been wont to use were laid aside. What had become of that mise rable and mischievous sophism, founded on the Coro- Pation Oath, by which it had formerly been attempted to deteive the good people of England ? It might perhaps still be found lurking in some wretched and contemptible pamphlets; but from the convet• sation of all rational men; from the debates in that i House, it had long ,disappeared: What had be tome of the abuse that had formerly been heaped upon the prbfession of the Catholic religion ? At length that was acknowledged by all, which was before knovht td the best informed, that the Catholic religion had been that of some of the wisest, most learned, and most virtuous men which the two islands had produced ; and that the religion professed by our forefathers to whom we were indebted for the esta.' blishment of our dearest rights and ptivileges ' ought to be treated with respect; and indulged with tolera tion. These were the sentiments that had advanced with rapid and certain strides. Every day produced new friends to the cause of civil and religious liberty, and such a cause never lost a proselyte that it once obtained. Why then was the opposition continued ? Did the Anti-Citholica think they would very essen tially tnove the Protestant faith by exasperating the Catholics of Itelaud ? bid they think they would do Much good by continuing to urge topics calculated Only to increase and perpetuate the irritation that at present existed in the Catholic mind ? Or, on the other hand, if, by exaggerating the defects of the Ca tholic character, and by falsely representing the dan gers of concession, they should contrive at last to re itimate the expiring prejudices of the Protestants, and induce the Legislature to delay the measure of conci liation until it had lost every thing of grace and favour, to be *twig from than in a motnent of danger anddis may, would they imagine that they had benefited the Empire by the postponement ? Surely not. Surely it \with/ be most , wise to abridge that interval of feverish feeling which must. always exist between the period at which *measure of civil liberty tri u mplied in argument, and the period at which it was adopted and carried into effect by the Legislature ana the State. file woul4 readily admit that the subject was one of much difficulty ; and that, whatever steps Parliament' might think fit to take, they would encounter serious nbstasles in consequence of the difference of religion, and still more in consequence of the natural separa tion of the two countries. Four millions of dissenters horn the established religion, even were they diffused over a large and connected empire, it would require some consideration so manage with wisdom. But when th ese f o u r m illi ons o f Dissenters were confined to a distinct and separate portion of the empire; when they .united a national to It sectarian characters there mast necessarily arise, in spite of every precathion; • Ststarbances, from time to time, which Wiling but falliearance in the leaden date vat ;bus parties could repress. The question for the Legislature to deter- Iliac would be, how best to extricate the subject fi l m this di ffi culty ?' There were two great objects 6 4 a most be attended to in any arrangement for that surfeit--the happin ess of the States and are seigliti .., di ez lie rl -Prolbsiot reitiWr; it .'ire tit be enaiiiikittid%* : 6416114 . 0091400- :ahem the Legiiilativeiki!e - fficie be'cilled on to giant concession ;bit hi was don4iiteed that it might be e.ffectually vented ; and the excellence of the se nility he would allow to be a tett of the beneficial character of any proposed measure. To place any class of men, unnecessarily, in a state of disability and disqualification, was a gfeat evil. The evil in creased as the period.of that disability and disquali ficatien increased, and as the individuals who were the objects of it were thereby rendered still less available to the service of the State. It was for those, therefore, who opposed Catholic emancipa tion, to shew that the evils whieh would be attendant ttp.‘n it *dad he greater than those attendant on the existing st ith if things.— How could they be so e Wll.it evil kid resulted from the admission of other Dissentei s intu the pale of the Constitution ? They enjoyed almost all the blessings of that Constitution : they were permitted to sit in - Parliament ; they were placed nearly on a level with the orthodox P testant. If no evils had resulted from this partial to ration, i the Anti-Catholics were bound to dernons e the existence, In the professors of the Catholic reli ion, of qualities which would render it dangerous to &rant them equal advantages—qualities not exclusively spiritual, but diffused over their general character, and rendering them turbulent and bad subjects.— In endeavouring to ascertain the existence of these mischievous qualities, the House had on the one hand the decrees of certain ancient Catholic councils, the ordination oath of the Catholics, &c. On the other hand, they had the declarations of all the learned Catholic Universities. For his part, he did not conceive, as far as the question under discussion was concerned, that Parliament had any thing to do With the Catholic do - Ctrines. An inquiry into the nature of these doctrines might be very learned, it might be very amusing, it Might be very theological, it might be very philosophical ; but he did not see hew it could be political. The duty of the House was to inquire, not what was the doctrine of the Ca. tholics, but what was the part they were likely to act i Their probable conduct was the flt subject of consi deration, and not their doctrine, any farther than as it might be likely to influence theii conduct. No thing would betray greater ignorance of the world than to judge of the prhable conduct of any set of men in a State by the arguments of doctors and the canons of councils. These ought not to be weighed, to the pedantic exclusion of that living commentary by whith alone they could be justly estimated. At all times, and under all circumstances ought this maxim to be attended to; but in the present in stance the text was altogether secondary to the notes. If the Catholics were not so just, so wise, so virtuous, so pious, so enlightened as the pro. fessors of the true religion—neither were they so foolish, so absurd, so wicked, so impious, so super stitious, as intolerance would represent them to be.— What reason had the Legislature to suppose that the Catholics of birth and education (and to them the measure of emancipation would chiefly apply) would be foolish and wicked enough to with to overturn the existing order of things in the empire? What overt acts had they committed to render such a suspicion just ? What hid been the treasons and murders by which the Catholics had forfeited their cl iim to pri vileges enjoyed by other dissenters from the e.ta blished church ? Unless some overt act could be shewn, it was idle to talk of declarations and decrees, the spirit of which had long ceased to animate the Catholic Body. But even if the spirit did continue, what additional means and what increased dispo sition would concession be calculated to give the Ca- tholics to direct it hostilely against the Protestant interest ? In the course of the discussions on this subject, the Catholics had been too often spoken of as if they were wholly powerless —as if they were Helots, or Paraguay Indians—as if they were now for the first time endeavouring to ob tain a portion of political strength. What the Le gislature had to consider was, not whether the Catho lics should be allowed to remain powerless and dis contented, but whether something should be added to their power in order to diminish their discontents i What were the existing discontents ? What was the additional power required ? The discontents were great, general, growing, and incapable of diminution but by concession. The power required to be granted was small, and little extensive. It was to qualify a few Roman Catholics to become Members of that and the other House of Parliament, to become Admirals and Generals, and ( what justice and impartiality de manded) to become Sheriffs and Justices. It was also indirectly to lead in a few years perhaps, to the acquisi sition of still greater political power. Perhaps it might lead to constitute a Catholic one of the Ministers of State. But against all this must be set the decrease of Catholic feeling which concession would occasion.— The Honourable Gentleman concluded by saying, that fur ten years in which he had the how& of a seat in that House, he had felt it his duty to advoCate this most important question ' • and if the House, redeem ing the pledge which it had given in the last Parlia ment, should now adoptauch measures as were re quired by justice, and enforced by sound policy, lie should rejoice in having borne his testimony in favour of that political wisdom ; but if, contrary to his hope and wishes, the motion should be tejected, he should at least have the consolation of knowing that he was acquitted before his country of having contributed to perpetuate a state of things, so pregnant with misfor tune td his country.—(General cheers.) Mr. SHAPLIN CAREW said, that from every view he had been enabled to take of the subject, and from any experience which a residence in his native country might have afforded him, he was most de cidedly of opinion, that there was no one question so much calculated to strengthen the resources of Great Britain, and to raise Ireland to that rank in the scale of the Empire to which her natural advantages en titled her. It would not be for our interest, that when every energy should be exerted in resistance to the attacks of the common enemy, the right arm of the Empire shoUltibe paralyzed by the incapacities under which the majority of the population of Ireland suffer ed. (Jive them but a free participation in the privileges of out; glorious Constitution—give them but a com mon- cause, and a common interest to defend, and, in the hour of danger, Ireland will not be then a vnl nerable point. The hearts and the hands of Irishmen never had been, nor ever would be, backward in the defence of oui rights. The violent language of the Catholic Meetings had been urged- as an objection to • C p le ..• .^ 7 140 aikkai. W OW anceetAl &alined their li.t ciety for the Propagation of Christianity, and iw every artifice to -induce, or to force, people to ti pbirdie in such, cool and temperate-language? Wa s, eeritions. Instead of a rooted feeling in this country' it in human nature not to feel some degree of warmth when the happiness or misery of our country was at against the Catholics, the people were more favourabls stake ? He was not one of than . ..who, on a question by many degrees than on former occasinns,and the cry involving in its issue the fate of millions,could descend of 4 No Popery' would not succi ed at this ndumeat. to that cold criticism which would finalize every sew. It was In vain to attempt to take awe) Mi. Pitt's timent and weigh every period. • authority' on this subj.•ct, notwithstanding what wis Mr. RYDER was ready to adniite that the time attempted in the charge of a Reverend Prelate, eve might arrive when the Roman Catholics should be with the sentiments of Mr. Fox. That Reverent allowed to exempt themselves from the thraldom un- Prelate, if acting al a politician, had certainly aN. der which they laboured by the authority of the liticAl game open to him; and was nut much to Pope. The power of the Pope, in fact, extended blame, except as a Prelate, in endeavouring to utrin not to teligious points alone, but to all the important this question of the authority ot Mr. Fox. For that duties and rights of social fife, and to the laws of the purpose, in a note, he quoted a passage from a pest realm. That power, if established, would destroy humour work of Mr. Fox : but it was not tedir in the the temporal rights of the country. It had been Bishop to give a garbled extract to his clergy, many objected, that the Clergy had taken a share in pee- of whom had never attended debates, Alla could not tioning the Legislature against the Catholic claims ; know the immutable principles of Mr. Fox ono this but he would put it fairly to the feelings and the question—principles in which Mr. Pitt coincided.— judgment of the House, whether the Clergy did I When they were told that Mr: Pitt never commu not Fellness and exercise a just right to interfere, when nicated his ideas on the subject to Lord Eldon, a question was brought forward, in which the vital they might as well have been told, that he nett no interests .of the national establishment were in- decided opinion on the Slave Trade, because he volved ? To attack the Clergy upon that ground, did not consult and agree with other Members of was, in reality, to be guilty of that of which those per- the Cabinet on the abolition of that netarious traffic. sons who made the attack mint have been conscious. `Some friend of the Slave Trade might have said, He denied that not going into the Committee would that Mr. Pitt never had any digested plan of aboli shut the doors of the House against the claims of the • eon, and thence argued, that he was not sincerely in Roman Catholics. The question had been discussed favour of it ; but he (Mr. W.) would Assert, that year after year, session after session, week after week, the divine effusions of eloquence which be had heard and day after day; and he would ask, what ad van- from him, rendered it impossible to doubt his sin tage could arise from entertaining the merits of the cerity. leo, in this question, he would refer to Mr. question in a Committee ? Seeing, as he did, the Pitt's declaration , and to the paper which Lord Protestants of this country decided - against and ad, Cornwallis left at Dublin, coupled with what his verse to the . claims of the Roman Catholics, and the most intimate friends had said, tei proofs of his teal Roman Catholics themselves unwilling to grant the opinion. Thus, then, there we: e :he opinions of necessary securities, what was left to the House but Mr. Pitt, Mr. Fox, Mr. Burke, Mr. Windham, to oppose these claims, and to support the present Cs- and of another, who was the boast of Ireland, tablishment unfettered and unimpaired ? Although one of whom she had always been, and always Mr. Pitt was friendly to the concessions required by would be proud, as one of the most illustri the Catholics, he felt it his duty to oppose theme in ' ous of her sons—Mr. Sheridan, Tee ground consequence of the general feeling and dispositiod oft of opposition to these claims was a soil so rank; the country. . that when you cut de*n the weeds they sprung Mr. WELLESLEY POLE explained. up again directly, and there was no end to ete Mr. MARSH felt himself not desirous to trespass forts; just as it was during the exertion of twenty upon the indulgence of the House; but he could not years, crowned at last with the abolition of the Slave remaih silent, and witless, without a remark, the as. Trade : he hoped yet to see, as in that case, the perity of censure which had been thrown against the blessed day; when we could say, We had conciliated Clergy. He had a pride and pleasure in recollecting Ireland. Gee Gentleman said, after eight years deli; that a character ttuly illustrious, the Bishop of Nor- beration, that he was not averse to concessions, but to wich, was invulnerable to censures of that nature, going into a Committee. A Committee was the only and that the pious sentiments, liberality of demea- mode of giving the matter full consideration. Was it nour, and the purity of life of that excellent Prelate thought that the annual speech of his eloquent and Tee exempted him from all attack of that kind. If any nerable friend (MoGrattan) answered by some Gentle; quality could peculiarly distinguish that great and man on the other side, was enough to content Ireland? eminent Prelate, it was his generous devotion for, Many of the counter-penticins e and some of the counter and enthusiastic spirit in, the cause of civil and reli. speeches, were imbued With the old errors respecting gious liberty. The proposition which was then submit- Popery, yet the greeter part looked to some convenient ted for the House togo into a Committee, was the only time. The Bishop of Lincoln, however, laid it down efficacious way of Satisfying both the Catholics, and the solemnly, that not only Popery was to be discouragedi scruples of those who objected to their claims. It was but also, that any opinion which diminished the twice the only mode in which the question ought to be consi- of the conviction of men's minds against it thereby. dered. All the merits and demeritsof the subject would weakening the Church of England, was to be equally be then fairly brow ht under the consideration of the opposed. Was not this an erroneous meek ; and did House, which would be enabled to see and feel all it not tend to exciting the re-enactment ot the set the grand and leading points on both sides, without wrest excluding statutes against Catholics? Ond reviving animosities—without exciting prejudices— Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. k Y _ _e) had said,. and without restoring those grounds of contention, " Shew me the securities, and I will go to a Com the existence of which had caused so many serious mittee ;" but he was immediately afterwards carried and unhappy disputes. Gentlemen could, in that away, and like the man who had just touched Hea case, avail themselves of all the evidence which ven, in the poetic description, was set off again by might be adduced—they could, and indeed had a the winds, and driven to the limbo, where he cone right to expect, all the facts which it was possible to templated cowls, and beads, and Bulls, and Indule bring forward; and they would be enabled to treat gences. If he could not convince himsede no mortal them with a sobriety and calmness, suitable to the power could. In some events the Right Hon. Gentle importance and magnitUde of the subject which man would agree : one was, the death of Bonaparte. called for their investigation and decision. Prejudices He (Mr. Whitbread) did not attribute to hitn the and passions, on either side, would not, in conse- wish to see Bonaparte taken off by unfair means ; quence of such a line of conduct, be allowed to pos- but he was surprised to s.e in public prints of re sess any weight ; and it should not of course be for. spectability, horrible doctrines advanced, such as t h e gotten, that the imputed violence of the partizans of necessity of marching to peace over the dead bodf Catholic Emancipation, could not be urged as a of that man. He, for one, should solemnly object to proof of the badness of the cause they advocated. 44 the deep damnation" of the taking off et any m Mr. PEELE explained, and disclaimed any im- , by unfair means. That man was under the wear of proper allusion to the Bishop of Norwich. that Paovreeeca which had permitted his elevation, Mr. WHITBREAD observed, on rising, that, al-'td what he now was:—but if the Catholics were to though the subject, momentous as it was, had been wait for this supposed event, he feared that their ex-, discussed with extraordinary ability, and that the ate pectations might long be hopeless. Another event guments for going into a Committee were peculiarly ` *as the giving up, by the Catholics, of the papal sus strong, yet there still appeaied to him some points premacy. Last • year the Right Hon. Gentleman which had not been enforced in support of the c l ues- wanted a Pope at Ballyshannon :—but this year the, tion. While he felt happy in the opportunity thus whole supremacy must be surrendered. !f ther e afforded to him, of offering his tribute of admiration was any thing peculiarly taunting, anil likely to to the unbiassed abilities, and his unqualified venera.., provoke sufferers to madness, it was to fix on them ' tion for the pure piety, of the Bishop of Norwich, he a condition impossible to pefform. This was the • could not pass over the very able speech of the Right dreaeful modeemployed towards theunhappy Hon. and Learned Gentleman (Mr. Plunkett) who tortured by the rack of the Inquisition, in order to ex. had delivered his sentiments in support of the motion tort from them confessions ot crimes ot which they on a former night. 'that speech b r ought back to his were innocent. To the holiest of the martyrs it may mind, and ho doubt, he would add, to the recollection have-been said, " Only declare your disbelief of cere of the House, nee golden times of Pitt, and Fox, and taro doctrines ;" to Servetus, 6 Only say you believe Burke, and Sheridan, and Windham. With respect to in the Trinity ;" and so of all other sufferers. They the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. W. Pole) who had were all foolish people, and their sufferings were alt in a speech, heard with great pleasure, attempted to their own fault. The expiring man might say, n shew his own consistency, he should merely say, that , may be released from my agonies; but exquisite as my the Right Hon. Gentletnan had not succeeded in im. torments are, I will not consent to be relieved frogs' parting that degree of satisfaction which he intended. temporary misery, at the expence of eternal puiatte That Right Honourable Gentleman contended, that meats." We say to the Catholics, You may, be aye and no amounted to a decisive affirmative; and a Judge, a General, an Admiral, a Commander in as he was himself consistent in giving an aye and Chief :if you don't, the fault is your own. WhY don't aye, he felt it necessary to take every precaution, that you renounce your Creed ?" But the answer was these two affirmatives should not be construed in a ready What shall a man give in exchange for way directly contrary, and urged against himself his sold ? I shew you that Ido give you seem ay. My as an evidence of inconsistency. With respect to forefathers and my brethren have proved it by shed the Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Bankes) who was ding their blood in your service. I myself am note at the head of economical reform, he would ask, what marching to the perils of war, to risk my life in your was his conduct, and how did he fulfil the duties on cause. You cannot be sincere in an offer coupled with the 'present question, which he avowed to have con- such conditions; but I mu )t be lift in despair !" tracted on other qtiestione? —Was he to stop short, Popery had prevailed in Ireland from the earliest ;v -end when his books and accounts were to be exa- riods. When were the times, wherein the charges mined, was he to halt in his march, and carry them of the dissolution of marriages,' bastardizing issues,' off under his arm ? No f Such a conduct would be and changing the course of landed property by the altogethet unjustifiable. And yet the Honourable Pope, could be substantiated ? When did he absolve* Gentleman; who, on subjects of economical re- our soldiers and sailors from their allegiance; and form, was ever ready to fulfil his duties in spite direct his priests to order them to desert Will tura of all opposition from without and from within, their weapons against out nwir bosoms Gentle nto' was now prepared to change his whole system, to spoke of the papal influence, as if the conctes Dote shift his whole plan of operations, to bike up new were to create it ; whereas the Hierarchy l,ad, in• ground, and tte assure the Houle that no further in- fact, existed all along over a vast and discont .nted quiry was necessary, and that to go into' the Corn- multitude; whereas the passing of the measure would mittee would be a complete waste of times He was cpntinue it over a comparativel contented and happy persuaded, that the greatest misrepresentations had population.--(Hear.) One Gentleman went beck to' been resorted to; even by inflammatory addresses from the time when all Ulster was given up to the levies. the pulpit, made,nd doubt, in igno . rance,or they would tants ; but if that Gentleman had been a Cathelice not have used them, by papers circulated by tha'So: where' would he• have been now, with all his talenn .;; • • .04.-