Star. — London, England, 1808-04-08 00:00:00

PARLIAMENTARY PROCEEDINGS. HOUSE OF LORDS, APRIL 7. The Bishop of Limerick waa introduced, and took the usual oaths and his seat. The Irish Bar's and Cotton Wool Prohibition Bill was commit. ted, and ordered to be reported to=morrow. BARK PROHIBITION BILL. The Earl of LAUDERDALE not only objected to the bill upon the grounds of inhumanity, injustice, and inefficiency, but - likewise upon the principle of its giving too great power to the Ministers of the Crown, an granting licences, by which they were enabled to accommodate a few favoured individuls, not only to the destruction of all other fair traders, but giving themselves (the Ministers) such an influence over those men as might be dangerous to the State, and at I last subversive Of the Constitution. Lord REDESDALE vindicated the Board of Trade from the asp?rsions thrown out by the Noble Lord, of its having attempted to make the commercial interest of the country subservient to the views of Ministers.. His Lordship then took a comprehensive view of the late measures of Ministers, beginning with the seizures of Copenhagen, and ending with the pre sent Bill. All these measures, his Lordship contended, were absolutely necessary for the salvation of the country.. Lord GRENVILI,E complained, that no other argument appeared to have been made use of except ' that which had been ten times refuted, of the late Administration having adopted a measure precisely similar, in their Orders of Council of the 7th of Ja nuary. He utterly denied there was any similarity between the cases, nor would he allow that the pre sent 1311 could be considered at all as a measure of retaliation, as its avowed object was nothing more than to allow a few cargoes of British manufactures to be imported into France, in consideration of allow ing some Bark to be exported from this country. He obsel-ved, that the evidence utterly contradicted thel fact which had been assumed as the foundation of the , Bill, that there, was a total deficiency of that article in France. The LORD CHANCELLOR, in reply to Lord Grenville, observed, that the measure of preventing bark from being sent to the enemy, could not be On sidered more inhuman than the project of starving France, which had appeared to be an object of a for mer Administration, of which his Lordship had been a Member. To allow men bark, but not to allow them any thing to eat, or any clothes to wear, .could not be considered as extraordinarily humane. The ob ject, however, of that measure was very justifiable, as its meaning was to force France to an honourable and secure peace. It must be recollected that by every system of blockade which had ever been adopted, bark would have been as liable to seizure as any other article. Lcrd HAWKESP , URY followed on nearly the same grounds as the Lord Chancellor. He could not conceive how those who saw no inhumanity in preventing France from receiving provisions, should see so much in preventing their receiving bark. The fact, however, was, that neutral vessels could not bring bark to France, because that was a production of the enemy's Colonies ; neither could any British subject, without the express licence of his Majesty, hold any sort of trade with the enemy. The country had an undoubted right to retaliate fully upon the enemy for their decree declaring the British islands in a state of blockade. Instead of fully exercising this, right of retaliation, they had gone far short of that . retaliation which the enemy were entitled to. The Earl of ROSSLYN briefly argued, that there was no prospect' of our being able to compel the in troduction of British manufactures and commerce into the Continent ; inasmuch as it was in proof before the House, that the present prices of Bark at Paris were but very little more than the average rates on which the British army was supplied with that article in the year 1803. The question-being loudly called for, the House divided. .For the thi reading, Present 54, Proxies 56 , 110—Against it, Present 22, Proxies 22, 44—Ma jority for Ministers, 66. Lord GRENVILLE proposed a clause, by way of Rider, with a view of indemnifying individuals who sustained losses by the Bill ; which being opposed by Lord Hawtmetatr on general grounds, was ne gatived without a division. The Bill was then passed. At Half past Oneo'Clock this Morning the House adjourned. The Petitioner (Mr. Firmin de Taste), pursuant to an order of the House, was beard by his Counsel, Mr. CAMPBELL, against this Bill. After stating his case at some length, Mr. Cast pistil. called, as witnesses, Messrs. Bowden, Williams, Patterson, and Tucker, front whose evidence it appeared that the Petitioner bad the sole importation of Jesuits Bark into this country, by permis sioo of the King of Spain ; in exchange for which he sent out British manufacture to Spanish South' America- That there was now on hand in this country twelve years conaumption of this article, and on its way hither ten years farther consumption. That . the Petitioner was in the habit of exporting the article to the Continent of Europe, and should this Bill pass, he mast be ine vitably mined. That, although there might not be at present a sufficient supply on the Continent, yet if the exportation from this country were prohibited, the enemy would find means to procure it in small craft directly from South America, and thereby de feat the great object of the Bill. Having closed the evidence, Mr. Campbell applied for some time to speak again upon the evi dence given ; upon which a considerable discussion took place be tween Lord Hawkesbury, Lord Grenville, Lord Erskine, Lord Lauderdale, Lord Auckland, and Lord Holland, and a motion was proposed, that Counsel should be heard to-morrow. After much conversation, a division took place, when there ap peared, for hearing Counseito-morrow, 15; for hearing him now, 3e.—Majority, 17. Mr. CAMPBELL was then beard shortly on the evidence. The Order of the Day for the third reading of the Bill being read, Earl BATHURST rose, and entered into a num ber of arguments, many of which had been stated before, in support of the Bill, which he considered not at all shaken by the evidence adduced at their Lord ships Bar ; nor could he consider it. a measure so hostile to the feelings of humanity as some Noble Lords on the other side were so seriously inclined to treat it. It was not altogether a prohibitory measure; for the Privy Council would have it in their power to grant licences to trade in this commodity whenever they should judge it expedient. It was, he contended, a measure fairly and justly resorted to, to make the enemy sensible of the evils accruing to himself from his own commercial arts. .Lord ERSKINE, notwithstanding the arguments of the Noble Earl, still maintained the opinion which he before urged, that this measure was contrary to the -dictates of religion and the principles of humanity, and so strongly did he feel upon this subject, that he intended, in case the House agreed to the bill, to em body the reasons which operated in his mind against it in the form of a protest, in order that they might remain upon the Journals of the House, and go down to posterity. It could not be said to be analogous to the case of a siege, because there the object was, in forcing the besieged to endure privations to compel them to surrender, by which they might put an end to those privations, but by this measure, sickness and disease were to be bereft of a medicine which was an effectual remedy, and this without any object to be at tained, but that of distressing the innocent inhabitants of the Continent. Such a mode of warfare was in consistent with the dictates of the Christian religion, and he rejoiced, that on this occasion the Reverend Prelates who usually attended that House, did not attend to vote in favour of this measure. As to the information stated by the Noble Earl to have been received, that House knew nothing of it, and there fore it could not form a ground of supporting this measure. Lord BO RINGDON contended, that the principle upon which supplies were cut off from a besieged town, equally applied to this measure, and to the measures of which it formed a part, and he thought it highly probable, that they would have a similar effect to the cutting off supplies from a besieged town, within a period not longer even than some of the sieges during the last war, by forcing the enemy to repeal leis decrees against the commerce of this country. The , principle of prohibiting the exportation of Bark, was not here in question, as under the operation of this measure Trance might have Bark if she chose, that it to say; if she chose to take along with it articles of British manufactures or commerce. The Earl of ALBEMARLE warmly reprobated the principle of the Bill, which, he said, according to the obvious dictates of humanity, would be disgrace-. ful to Englishmen to assent to.—(Hear hear!)—His Lordship argued, that from the evidence adduced, it was proved that there was abundance of Bark upon the Continent, and that-the present prohibition would defeat itself. He concluded by deprecating in strong terms the inhumanity of the measure. It was dictated however by that new morality—( Hear! hear!)—upon which Ministers had attempted to justify the barbarous invasion of a neutral and peaceable Power, seizing their ships, and massacring their helpless women and children.—(Hear! hear!) The Earl of WESTMORLAND considered that, however.obnoxious and inhuman this measure might appear, yet, he contended, it was a wise and efficient measure ; inasmuch as it must ultimately compel the enemy to permit the introduction of British manufac tures into the ports of the Continent ; and if they per sisted in refusing the introduction of them along with this commodity, then, indeed, they would , well de serve any calamity that might bed them, by reason of such prohibition. Lord HOLLAND, in energetic terms, urged the cruelty and inhumanity of the measure ; he considered, that while it extended the calamity of war to innocent individuals, it degraded the .country, without any essential benefit. It was not meeting the enemy as a great and powerful nation should do ; but at once descending to aline of policy destructive to the dignity and character of any civilized country. A blockade by sea he mireived to be like a siege by land ; and although by the latter it was necessary, in order to induce the town to surrender, to cut off supplies of provisions, with a view to such surrender, yet he never heard of a General 'comptoptising the introduction of provisions for an exchange of any commodity which the besieging party might be in want of. From this position the Noble Lord inferred, that a blockade was on the broad principle of bringing thO enemy into terms, but not for the introduction of certain commo ditie§ merely to induce them to admit those of your own. Lord MULGRAVE vindicated the present brit as One of those measures wlaids were calla for by the aggressions of our enemy. * If he would resort to un- Unusual and unauthorized mode of nothing - ie rhained for us but to follPw his' example and, bar retaliation, to compel him to 'return into the cOpimOn established track. HOUSE OF COMMONS. A Committee on the Wexford Election Petition was balloted for. The Rev: Mr. Morgan, Secretary to the Royal Naval Asylum, presented wine accounts respecting that Institution.—Ordered to be printed. Sir C. POLE gave notice of a Motion on Monday, for an Ad dress to his Majesty respecting the Naval Asylum. Mr. LUSH(NGTON gave notice of a Motion on Monday, re lative to an Honourable Member of that House, (generally sup posed to be Sir Home Popham) should the Honourable Member on that day attend in his place ; if not, he should,then postpone it to a future day. Mr. PARNELL withdrew his notice of a Motion for a New Writ, in respect to a Member of the Duwnpatrick Committee, (:11 r.Jollifte) alluded to yesterday. Mr. IiUSKISSON moved for, and afterwards presented, an Account of the Income of the Consolidated Fund for the corre sponding quarters, ending the Z.3th of April 1807 and 1808.—Or dered to he printed. The Irish Customs Office Regulation Bill was reported and or dered to be engrossed. The Irish Customs Duty Bill and MTh Promissory Note Bill were read the second time and committed for Monday. Upon the Motion for the second reading of the Assessed Tax Mr. BTDDULPH rose to oppose the Bill, as tending to ittopoie new defies; ceder the shape of mere regulations, to the amount of 100,0001. per annum, without any previous notice, or-any Parlls meatary proceeding being assigned for the imposition of such du ties, or the blouse having been ever consulted in any shape upon the subject : he should, therefore, oppose the Bill in every.stage ; unless the Right Honourable Gentleman would postpone the con sideration for another week, when he pledged himself to suggest a mode of raising the proposed sum without taxes. Mr. HUSKISSON said, the Parliainenta7y ground for raising the additional two per cent. on the amount of the gross taxes, was the funding of four millions of Exchequer Bills, and this would raise only ivo,oool. out of The 210,0001. necessary. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, he had given notice of his intention to propose the Increase of duty bet Ore the Bill was brouy,ht in ; and he did 'not think the Honourable Mem ber's general assretion, that he could suggest other means of rais ing the sum with. it taxes, a sufficient reason for stopping the pro gress of the Bil; to w,u. , less the Honout able Member would make some specification. lfe Lad no objection, however, to postpone the committal of the Bill to Monday. Mr. TIERNEY ...v. Dr. LAWFLE.NCE supported the objection of Mr. Biddulph, Upon the ground that notice was necessary of the increased tax. Mr. ROSE said, it h-idbeen the practice on other Consolidation :Sills heretofore, to aster and Increase duties to a considerable =want without notice. Mr. WHIl.fiRii.AD observed, that any notice respecting the alteration 14i'nie Taxes :tow carer too late; fur those Taxes were to cfraut.e.wef on the sdi of April, but the Bill was r.ut introduced untikthe . ld. He taw no necessity for pressing the measure before the regular Budget came forward. The Bill was read a secoud time, and committedfor to-morrow. Ms. I'IEIitNEY moved fcr a long list of witnesses to attend the • 48 - roesiloy,upon the Commercial Petition!. Qrdered. : .7 Lord CASTLEREAGH gave notice dills boattloo to submit to the Howe on Tuesday, the outlines of a plan ClMllealleAlta the internal defence of the country, whielrbe 0011 Fri ties mote to have printed, in order this it might lie-htlisiliands of Mem bers during the holidays. . The Pauper and Criminal Lunatic Bill was brougheup, read a fire. and second time, the report brought up, and ordered to be t a ken into further consideration on Tucsday, the 10th of May.— Adjourned. much ad tar • `dons was preferable to his proposed amendment, which, therefore, he would not persist. (Hsas,s 4 ; l , When, however, he stated this, he had not ' least changed his opinion respecting the Bill, Per hear ! )—He could not possibly see ti W e i rr e of ver thi e s i ß Pe il?w ed ou r ld li t that would result from it, neither could he yanta • any grounds for the . alarm felt by Pe i re several Ne ss n fro th m e s ti i i he e o c pvra t. Mr. BANKES moved the commitment of the Re- ceived, and they who represented it to the l e e • people • s version Bill. a measure which would be attended al l . 'burdens i d no n with any su 34. Lord OSSULSTON rose, and argued against the vantage, only subjected to disappointment. He wonN amendments of which the Chancellor of the Exche- be no party to such representations. On the cone s: , quer had given notice. a s to the prerogative, there was ind ee d an alters • " 1 xe s The SPEAKER having left the Chair, and Mr, but the operative part would'rather be increa se d La H. THORNTON having taken the chair of the efficiency by this meastue than diminished. But de l l Committee, this increased efficiency would tend to the Purciosesl Mr. BANKES rose, and requested leave to remind of economy, he was far from saying. Th e mode of , the Committee of the situation in which they now rewarding services with expectatio n , i nstea d of steel stood, from the former bill having been rejected by ! possession, was a cheap one, (Hear, hear !)wand t the Lords. They were therefore precluded in point I that sort of economy the Bill was unfavourable. ° of form from bringing forward exactly the same men- He was very anxious, however, that the bill sh al l,' 'sure this Session. It was on this account that he had !pass, on account of the consequence which had bee s brought in a bill, with a limitation in point of time.. attached to it ; and he really thought the amend. If this was carried, it would at least secure one ob- meets such as left no good ground of objection, o n ject, namely, the prevention of any new grant during account of form. the limited period, which might affect the proceedings Mr, WHITBREAD could not help doing th e of the Committee, with respect to the great . measure Chancellor of the Exchequer the justice to Fa y, tt at s e of absolutely restricting the Crown from granting ha I actsd with perfect consistency throughout the] Offices in reversion. His object now was to proceed whole course of proceeding upon the present in the most conciliating manner possible, without sa- because he had professed it to be his opinio n f rom t h e crificing the principle of the measure. (Hear ! hear!) beginieng, that little advantage was li kely tO - be de. In opening his views as to the limitations of time, he rived fpom it. He had all along contended, as he had, thought it in vain to propose .a longer perior than done this evening, that little benefit was to be locked that which had been proposed in the House of Lords. to from it in the way of (economical reform, a n d t e st This period (two years) was too short in his opinion; :those who held it up as a desirable measure in this but if he were to introduce a longer period, as ten point of view, either completely misunderstood years for instance, he rather feared it would cut off , misrepresented it. He (Mr. Whitbread) del • all chance of the passing of the bill, and disturb the ; think that it would be productive of m uc h pr a t harmony between the two Houses. But it had been ' good, but he did think that it might be productive e suggested to him, that this period of two years would igreat ultimate good. The burdens which the pe o pl e be the most offensive that could be introduced, for it I had to support were various in their nature--th ete was exactly that which the Lords themselves had re- were burdens of feeling as well as burdens of taiation, jected. This consideration had determined him to , and to their feelings it would certainly prove no sm a ll relinquish this period, and to propose o ne , w hi c h h e a ll ev i a ti on . M r . Whitbread expressed his satisfaction hoped would be equally useful, without subjecting ' that the Right. Hon. Gentleman had abandoned hi the bill to so much risk. He intended therefore, to amendments ; from whatever motive he had been i n . move, that the blank be filled up, with a provision, duced to do it, whether from a proper deferencetothe that the bill should be in force " for one year from the i sense of the pcople, or from the recommendation a passing of the Act—and from the close of that period the higher classes of the people, or from the ad v i ce o f to the end of six weeks, from the commencement of; some of his colleagues in office. From whatevermo, the subsequent Session of Parliament." This would tive he had done it, he rejoiced at it, because the secure the remaining part of the present Session, the amenameins, had they been introduced into the bill, whole of the next Session, and six weeks of the Session would have rendered it worse than nugatory. Th e y following. He hoped the House would be satisfied had no . more connection to the limitation of time th an with this at present, with the understanding, that to any other subject to which they might have been they gave up no part of the principle ; but still looked ' applied. The first, which related to giving notice of forward to the further object of having the measure , the intention of granting an office in the Gazette, it rendered permanent. The term would be sufficient would have been easy to evade, by giving that notice in for some of the purposes which the Committee had in the interval of the prorogation of Parliament ; amide view, and therefore was applicable to the situation in other, that they should not stand in thiway ofreform. which the House had been pieced. i it would be impossible fairly to carry into effect, with: He had heard that some objection- had ea taken out either doing injustice to individuals, or greeting on the ground, that the reasons for the Bill had not them a compensation for the injury they might sustain been stated in the preamble. In the spirit of concili- I out of the public money. These amendments, hove ation which he wished to preserie, he would move ever, the Right Hon. Gentleman waseeady to drop, that it should be stated in the preamble, that the and he now seemed anxious only to pass the bill in measure was connected with something at present pond- such a shape as might not give offence to the other ing in the House of Commons, and that the work, House of Parliament, standing there as the advocate suspended for a limited time:., should be substituted and guardian of the honour- and dignity of the Lords, for absolute prohibition.' He hoped his Right Hone though, considering his situation, he, Mr.Whitbread, Friend (Perceval) would see that he was disposed to thought' that it would have been fully as becoming is go every possible length for the sake of harmony.— him to have asserted the rights and privileges of the His Right 'Hon. Friend had before stated, that he Commons. He certainly deprecated, as much assay had no objections to the measure, though he did not person, a misunderstanding between the two branches think it of much consequence. The object of the of the Legislature—but if such a misunderstanding amendments of which he had given notice, must could only be avoided by a surrender of the privileges therefore have been to render the measure different el that House, he confessed that he would choose ra• front what it was before, so that it might meet with ther the former than the latter part of the alternative. nn opposition in point of form. As the alteration, The Right Honourable Gentleman too assumed in which he proposed, would answer the intended pur- argiiment, what he certainly did not shew, and what pose, he hoped his Right Honourable Friend would he (Mr. W.) was far from being convinced of, that not persist in amendments to which he could not agree. if the Bill passed the House of Commons in its pre- The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER sent shape, it would have the concurrence of the said, that his Honourable Friend had done him no a Lords. So far was he from being convinced of this more than justice in stating as his only grounds of ob- that from the record which he now held in his hand jection to the measure, its gOing up to the Lords sub- of whathad passed in the other House of Parliament stantially the same as that which had been rejected. upon the former Bill, he was inclined to draw a cot The Lords could not, consistently with theirdignity, elusion directly the reverse. From these minutes he and the order between the two Houses, pass in the saw that the principle of the Bill had been objected same session a Bill which they had once rejected.— to by a majority of their Lordships, and that a pre This was his objection when he had heard his Hon. test had been drawn up and signed by certain Lords Friend's intention to propose the very limitation which expressly against this principle. The Right Hon had been rejected by the other House, when it was Gentleman said that an amendment had been m oved there brought forward by a Noble Friend of his by a Noble Friend of his (Lord Hawkesbury) with (Hawkesbury) with his perfect concurrence. The I his (Mr. Perceval's) concurrence. But after having . object being to prevent improvident grants, he had I assented to the Bill to its full extent in the House ot thought that the rendering grants invalid, unless no- Commons, it would have been but • respectful in the ticed in the Gazette, would check that improvidence. Right Hon. Gentleman to have consulted the House It was with this view that he had given notice of the before giving his assent to such an amendment, at amendment. But having heard that a provision, as certainly he ought at least to have consulted his al• to the mode of making grants was considered as im- I leagues, before he gave his support to the Bill with• plying that the granting of reversions was to be con- out any limitation of time. But it was material that tinued, and as he did not want to press on the Houle the House of Commons should be aware, that the any thing which should prejudice the future conside- same Lords who had voted against the principle o f ration of the subject, or any future reform, he aban- i the Bill likewise voted against the amendment, and doned all idea of the amendment without any reluc- I that his Majesty's confidential servant was left in tance. (Hear! hear!) He was glad to fled that • minority in the Upper House, ranged with the oppos the Gentlemen on the other side approved of what he sition against the Princes of the Blood, and those said so far. As to the limitation now proposed who supported them. Upon what ground now, theree by his Honourable Friend, coupled with the altera- fore, he should be glad to hear, that the prese nt bill tion and addition in the preamble, he had no wo u ld not meet the same fate with the other He hesitation in saying that all this made it a differ- knew that in the other House there were a. v ariety of ent measure. The statement in the preamble, that little implements (alluding to the Proxies) , schwa it was connected with proceedings which had been might be shifted backward and forward, so as te . pending in the House of Commons for more than 1 bring the King's Ministers a second time into aMh one Parliament, was a most material alteration.— nority, and to afford a new triumph to a party mote Whether the Bill, even with all th ese alte r ations, ' powerful than the Administration. Mr. Whitbread would be effectually supported or not, he could ' here recapitulated the fortunes of the measure from not at present say ; but, at all events, the House b the first time that it was proposed, down the preseo would not be off e rin g t o th e L or d s w h a t th e y day. He thought that the wisest and most dignified_ could not pass, without abandoning their rights of course fer that House to take was, to persevere in legislation. It would be inconsistent with the dig- sending the Bill back to the Lords, in its old sha p e.! nay of the other H ouse to receive in the same Ses- and therefore, when it came out of the Committee, it sion, even with common attention, a Bill which they was his intention to move, upon bringing up the Re. had once rejected.—(Hear, hear !)—He begged of port, that the clause of Limitation should be left out those Gentlemen who seemed to object to the senti- altogether. ment, to conside r h ow they themselveswould feel in such Mr: DAVIES GIDDY threw ou t some 'deo re. a situation, and to respect the same feeling s in others. specting a plan for renumerating public service!, bz —With respect t o th e ot h er amendment, of which he which, without diminishing the sources of natio nal had given notice, he con s ide re d it as one w hich would liberality, an immense saving might be effected • A have produced precisely the same effect as the one sum, not exceeding 166,0001. granted in life alm' of ages now proposed by hi s H onoura bl e Friend.' But the ties to public servants, above forty-five years manner in which his Hienourable Friend had given would be amply sufficient for that purpose. . up somethi n g o f hi s li mitat i on , an d sta t e d t h e rea - Mr. FULLER observed, that in w hat had fabl es et sons for suspension , rat h er t hi n a b so l u t e probibi- from the Honourable Gentleman who had j ust " ;'(;1 4 :1 1 , cou ld The B a tub I oot.do WWI ions I • leg the d • h e• i •i so ld ii dog! ;le CI which fewer here i •ticeat la g " Jeseer The been • Leld was ; to th • the Jot vas rib ' get , gp t whic time be q be s . Pori COI for BA knc by list tot an Cr COU 101 hi = re