Star. — London, England, 1813-02-26 00:00:00

• Votince.ftta i smoatific o ui tab, a t. the work tol israiregfid, hid n o t templed to accost the Catheike bf h 'ding natiriferoui and treasonable . : eentiluentsi Fit.enbid not doubt that the- venestable pa to% I,llllE7eittd pas Chairman at the nitetlng. ut a shore . buts of kirdieritie,sanetion id • Ad atte. l t ient charges. .e-1f he was net instOdhts ries= of the Bowie, he wohld 'tame Wither pub. leation.— (Ifear,-Aear.).The 'clergy, that part of the Church of England' who were opposed is the claims of the Catholics, had certainly not been idle on this occasion. These divines, dignified and not dignified, some with mitres oa. their heads, and sons% perhaps, with mitres in their heads—(4 loud aid :aural laugh).—had all united their endeavours to, attack a religion,-whose similitude to their own they appeared not to know or to understand. In the front rank of this army of ecclesiastics—these holy militants . of the Protestant, stood the name of a prelate, from whose former writings be had de rived both pleasure and instruction, but from whose late production no man would be likely to add much to his stock of knowledge or of candour. In this work that prelate had freely ascribed to all those whose reasonings or opinions might not coincide with his own, artful misrepresentations, specious liberality, and concealed infidelity. To his judgment, it appear ed but little consonant to the mild character of that Church, whose author was the Siviour of the world, to thunder out these anathemas on, and to attribute these unworthy motives to a political opponent. Was no allowance to be made for the errors of those who might be inferior to him in learning and in talents ? His opinion, indeed, was, that no pare spirit of Chris tianity was exhibited in these wild imputations of in fidelity or adversary. He thought too, that there was something like specious liberality in the conduct of those who refused any scheme of extended indul gence, and took credit to themselves - for their mercy and toleration in allowing the possession of that which they could not take away.—(Hear, hear, hear.) T him, too, it appeared that misrepresentation war employed when a sentiment was imputed to that it lustrious statesman, Mr. Fox ; that the whole tenor of his political life, which was one continued effort of civil and religious' liberty, plainly contradicted.— This had been done by the saute orthodox divine who extracted an opinion giver; as to the probable consequences of seeing a Popish. King and a subser-, vient Parliament, and applied it to a question of ad mitting about six Catholic Members to one House,. and about double the number to the other. He him self was a firm and zealous Member of the Protes tant Church of England; by birth, by education, by conviction. Entertaining, however, this preference and attachment, he should always persist in claiming for his fellow-subjects the unrestricted liberty of work' shipping their GOD in the form which their conscience dictated to be the best. He should conclude, there fore, by expressipg his sincere conviction, that by ac ceding to the motion of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Legislature would restore and confirm the har mony of the empire, and at a moment when all its strength was so necessary to its safety and protection, venlig itt.te above all other measures to increase.and consolidate i t.-- [This "cam:perch was retrived through out,- and honoured, particularly 'at its close, with general cheert;) . •. Mr. 13.1/41(E.S said, it waa.natural that the Right HOW Gentlem4n mho -maal i a r the Motion, should be anaiims to ascertain whiwsivapisfie quality and nature of those Petitions which seen- crowded on the Table, in opposition to the Catholic Claims. To those, however, who were not so immediately con nected with Ireland, or . peculiarly with the subject,. it was sufficiently manifest, that the' belief which had been inculcated of the unanimity prevailing on this question in the country, was a belief not founded on or justified by the lam—(Hcar, hear.) —The Peti tion, it was not pretended to be denied, came from very respectably persoqs, and - from. very extensive classes. The Right Hon. Gentleman who com menced the debate had made use.of some expressions, which he lamented, and which were foreign to the usual tone of moderation that he maintained. He thought his statements of the grievances under which the Catholics laboured much exaggerated, although this might, perhaps, be fairly_ attributed to that energy of feeling; atid fervour -of elocution, by which he was so much distinguished. He thought sz unjust, too, that a country exhibiting more ex amples of a tolerant and beneficent spirit than any ether in Europe, should be represented as being more niggardly in its concessions even than Catlio lc States. The latter position was contradicted by tha unitirm testimony of history and the experience of all who had visited the different European States. The Right Hon. Gentliaman had mentioned two particular instance% France and Hungary, where an unbounded toleration was exercised. He should, however, prefer a reference to the doctrines and prac tice of the -.Papal Court itself. If the Protestanti charged the Catholics with still adhering to the faith and tenets of their ancestors, who was to blame for this ? Had not the Catholics themselves declared,' that they had not derogated from that discipline and doctrine, but that they still maintained every legiti- Mate canon of their antient Church ? The Pope, the present Pontiff, bad complained of those Decrees . of France by which an improper latitude was opened to the admission of different sects to civil and mili tary* eMploYMents. Prance 'would,. - probably, con tinue to act as she found it most-convenient, but here were the sentiments of the See -of Rome, and the policy which the head of the RomiSh,Chnrch re quired to be adopted: 3.n another document It was ai, ,, clared by the same 'authority, that the Catholic (hutch could not mute itself with antotber insaution tiny more than Christ could unite ivtth Belial.—(Hear, door).—Who would say then that there were not in these dogmas sufficient causes for 'the dislike with which the Catholics were described to be inspired wards the Protestant ? The old doctrines of Popery remained unchanged, and the power of dispensing with Usaeriages is so closely reserved to his Holiness, that it was never entrusted eVen to the Bishops.— The unity and single divinity of their Church was' still its ruling principle. He wished to state these] ;observations, because he had concurred in the restilii-: tiOh of thelast Parliament, adopted on .the sugges- , tion of his Right Honourat le Friend (Mr. Canning). (Hear, hear.) He gave his support to' that resolui-. tion, because its objects appeared to hint to be Suck as challenged the approbation of every man. If his views were now different, it was perhaps because-the .. . . . .bit • . • - •- • . I . l4 .i l at ' bah ear /" . ... 1 jib Midi T hissieat% . Cif . .Ssagedb r fer die ahhellift; iiati VME and icitiAistle.' Nei . - I fif Via ' , And had Oppifsed .. Mahe; the Wind Ind _repet vietesof it - Whig - ate* *dein tlic odon eatlyheoriesehil saw no piOsifed.t of let tight oft l am willing to admit; Sir , that the , dowtihtto- it defitiheit 'Or Satisfactory arrangeMeah I Catalogue of Catholic grievances ; at stated; In manf, pe wid Oppotted. tit Right Honourable Friend's ' publications out of doors, is exaggerated; but I de: esblutitis, priniiiilly, indeed, with a view of ass I, contend, that what is still withhvie from the CathOir ceftentin` g . the irearTe i vi.df the: Country, which I lies Is much calculated, in it s reftisal , Kt gall would •Mittirally be' ened at the approach .of feelings ; they still labour under grievances of a ! e l .., diet ' petnid when lhe question was to be practi- 1 provoking and vexatious nature— they are admitted call)' decided. That'feeling and verdict he now :to the civil professions, and with the honours of thole conceived had been pikarounced in opposition to the professions placed constantly in their view; theraii claiins:— (Near, hear, hear.) —lt bad b e e n influ- forbidden to aspire to them. They are pent* • enced, no doubt, in no slight deg r ee by the - tone as. ' ted to become soldiers ; thei r h ear t s art taught to Inured by the Catholics e'en at the very time when beat high with all that sense of glory - and thirst the prospect was dawning upon them. Eten at that for - distinction; which more peculi a rly characterises moment they claimed 'their concessions* matter of the members that profession; and while they see tight.—(Near, krar.)—..His Honourable Friend had, their companions in arms rise to that rank and dig with the ingenuity of a great orator, drawn a fresh nity which their conduct may merit, while, let their eitigument from this violence in their favour ; and he imerits be at as they may be, for them there it believed, there were some rsons in that House who no' splendid reward, they mu s t n e ver h o p e to least t t might be disposed to d e f en t h e pri n cipl e , thahe their ebuntry's band to victory , or have their names p\ Catholics were justified in c aiming concession as a known to that country for which they shed their right.—(Hear, hear.)—Wasit then to be maintained blood. Assuredly all this is very galling ; and iill that in a country composed like this, of different or- not the exclusion from this House also galling ? Is der: and of Church and State, the State had not the it in this House that the converse of the proposi- power of legislating for its own safety ? The best tion that kis ion, can be seriously maintained ? Why, writers, both speculative and practical, agree, that Sir, do we who sit here not wish to do so; or :del occasional abridgfnents of civil privileges might be : we not on the contrary actuated by a very strong just and necessary, and that the distinction of a free ! desire to obtain seats in this Howe ? - Certainly we are;, state consisted in its never havin g recourse to such ! and as certa i n ly ever y mot i ve w hi c h i nc i tes us to en 7 I expedients except when dictated by necessity or sound *deavour to obtain them operates - as forcibly on the policy. An Honourable Gentleman who spoke be. i minds of Catholic Gentlemen as it does on ours, hind him so well, and for the first time, had said, , Moreover, Sir, when 'we give the Catholics the . elee.l ,that any man should be permitted to worship Gon in 1 tive franchite, we gave 'them a-great mass of political his own form, but this was already permitted ; and ' power ; what remains is comparatively trifling, :.rid the only difference made, was - with respect to the -? cannot' be withheld. We have given them wealth equality of title to this for that particular priOileoe. i and knowledge, and wealth and ' knowledge are The Honourable Member then went on to state the I power.— (clear, hear.)—Own tit they have power sentiments of Mr. Clinch, a Catholic gentleman, wha I and they should not be given to people who were I had asserted in a letter so another Catholic, that no ' meant to be excludtd from political power, for the proposition could be • accepted bz the Burly which gift went to destroy a balance, -which, if such a de. went to do away foreign influence, for that foreign sign was entertained, ought to have been prettiest& influence was the Catholic religion. This he thought Sir, we have made the Catholics, by what we Wit was sufficient to alarm :ill those interested in the dune for them, an aristocracy, and we treat them is a mob ; by our extension of the elective franchise we preservation cf the Constitution and the Established Church; and he could not think that there could be have let a low mob into the most precious privileges any security for their preservation unless any corre- of the Constitution, and we have refused them to per. spondence that might take pl:ree between the Catho- sons of the highest rank and respectability. My Lord 1k Prelates and the Head of the Church were subject , Fingal is debarred from what his footman enjoys, and to inspection. The Honourable Member then alluded this strange per version of all soun .1 political principle to some proposition meant to be made to the House is dignified by the name of the British Constitution.- - -- with respect to the security of the establixlmmt, (Hear, hear.r—lt is the utmost wish of the Catho. contending, that the House could not listen to au lies to be admitted to that Constitution, to rally proposition which had for its object a sweeping re- round it in the ranks cf its most ardent supporters peal of disabilities at the press n: moment ; objected and defenders, to shale their dangers and their to the principles of the RightlionourableG'entlemaa glory, and to abide their fate—(dear, bear, hear,) (Mr. Gyttan) going to the repeal of the Corporation and all theyaisk, if admitted to its blessings, is to be and Teat Acts, and went on to say, that be would, permitted to bring with them their religion and their at some future period, willingly acquiesce in the re- honour, whole and untainted ; and without these they peal of the Penal Laws against the Catholics, pro- would be useless, they would be worse than useless, vided proper aacurities for the Constitution could be they would be dangerous associates. Sir, the con devised, such as they would consent to, at the same duct of our ancestors towards the Catholics was re time expressing his regret that such a consummation gulated - on very differerr principles from those by' was more to be wished than looked for. The Hon. which we aid actuated. They conceived there was Member concluded with animadverting on the in- a necessity for excluding them from.political*power,. tern - perance of the Catholics sitter the favourable and when they did so, they discovered tide expediency disposition evinced towards them by the late Parlia- of impoveris;.ing and barbarising them as the best ment, and stating his belief 'that it had created a means they could use for the purpose. Diabolical, considerable alarm amongst the Protestants in this indeed, would have been the continuance of such a , country, which must naturally counteract their views. system; but, nevertheless, if we do not abandon it Mr. GRATTAN explained. unreservedly, we must reverse the concessions we Mr. PLUNKETT then rose and s:oke to the fol- have already made, and retrace our steps. To be con lowing effect ;---. Sir—l do not think the imputation sistent, we must do so—we must take back all we' thrown out by the Hon. Gentleman against my Right have given ; we have lierived off a mountain from the Hon. Friend, as if he had said any thing, the intern- Ineasts of our countrymen, and we must now replace prance of which were calculated to injure the cause it. And shall we do so ? shall we' again plunge he wished to serve, just ; but if some expression has those whom . we have ruined into' the depths of poli escaped him in the warmth of debate, such as his neat degradation ? Where is the maniac who Wauld cool reason would regret, Ido maintain, Sir, that say we should ?—(Loud cheering.) The state of such expressions should be viewed only in combina. the "Catliolias is unparalleled—they are not cer: tion with tire general temperance with which he is tainly, as is hinted by some 'of their- absurd ad wont to bring this question before the House, and vocates, slaves—they participate in many and impor easily forgiven when it is obviously the result of a' tant advantages—but that they still remain degraded strong feeling for the public welfare, and the public and dishonoured is most oertain—they skulk behind glory. Now, Sir, with respect to the question which our chairs and share not in the public banquet to my .Right Hon. Friend has so ably advocated, it has which they ardently aspire to be admitted; and to been stated, that the object of the present application which, if they did not so aspire, they would be a de is the overthrow of the National Church, and the based and unworthy race, from whose grovelling establishment of a Catholic monarchy in its stead ; spirit none of those energies could be expected which and a complaint has been made, that no specific pro- make a people great. Requirsed to submit to the position had been made on the part of the Catholics, laws of the country they are supposed to be utteily which could be looked to as promising security to indifferent to the honours of its Constitution, even that Church and to the Constitution. Sir, my Right while they come foiward with every pledge and every Hon. Friend has declared, that the Catholics are wil- satisfactory evidence to their title to obtain them. On ling to give any security which may not be incon- the other side, indeed, the danger of 'admitting their sistent with their faith, and it is for those who op- claims is loudly, but not very consistently, tuain. pose their claims, to say what that , security should taiued, while it is deemed safe to admit them to the be. I profess that Ido not very well know what Bar, where they often become very eminent practi the Honourable Gentleman who spoke last means.— tiorrers, it is thought dangerous to permit them (Hear, hear.)—But his arg uments obviously lead to become Counsel for the Crown. It is safe to let to the conclusion, that the Catholic Claims are to- them fight in the ranks of our army, but dangerous tally inadmissible—that the nature of their religion if they should obtain rank m it. Safe that they should must for ever shut them out from the pale of the act as Grand Jurors and Sheriffs, and exercise other Constitution. Though certainly, Sir, ,I do drink important offices in ',eland, in that place where the that the Honourable Gentleman has not very dis- chief danger lies, and dangerous to allow them the timely. informed the House what interference sit the same advantages in England. They will, indeed, it Pope ur other cause has occurred since the period of is true, be admitted to the very heart of the State, his last vote on this question to effect so material a should they render themselves worthy cf that high change as it appearsbas been wrought in his opi- pr:vilege, by one act, and that act is perjury. The 'lions. (Rear, hear, hear.) 'One would imagine , Petitions with which the 'fable is now loaded, go to Sir, that the Holy Father must have very I.m:ly the re-enactment of the penal code. The Catholics, called upon the Catholics not- to coalesce with a Pro. in preferring their claims, show their title by a refe testant people, asserting such an union to be sub. rence to the oath they - are willing to make. If this seminally as impossible as that of CHRIST with Belial. be not believed, we can have no security under any And yet the Hon. Gentleman said, that something circumstances; and all that is left us is to chain the may be done ; that the case is not quite hopeless.— people down to that religion we choose to say they Then NO)) , does he refuse to vote fora Committee, profess, and, indeed, I should not be surprised if in the object of which is to inquire what may be done ? the lapse of a little time weshould have Petitions to (Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman has anticipated that effect. It is only for some choice spirit, an Hon. the speech of a Right Honourable Friend, who, he Alderman, for instance, to humour a Meeting at some understands, means to propose certain conditions, on one of the taverns of the Metropolis, and we should which the Catholics may be admitted to the benefits soon have some sixty thousand signatures, that, per. of •tbe,.Constitution, and therefore has declined to haps, would be affixed with alacrity to such a Peti. hold earth any such conditions himself ; and he has don in the ratio of the boldness of its prayer. If said that the claims of the Catholics may be granted the Catholics can be admitted to the privileges they some time or another, but he does not know when;— claim, consistently with the safety of the Constits and he has drawn a distinction between religious thin and the Church, they are entitled to every thing, toleration and an admission to civil power, which if not, they are entitled•to nothing.—(Bear, hear).—.. does not appear to me altogether a just distinc- I On this point, the claimants are willing to join issue, tion. Abstractly, indeed, lam not disposed, to as- I confident of being able to 'disprove the imputations Sens that the Catholics have any thing which, strictly I thrown out against theni ; and if it were otherwise, speaking, can be called a right to what they claim ; strange indeed would be the dispensation of Pnovk butif the have a tight to toleration, it is at least era- DiNCt WhiCil . WOUld expose us to the arduous struggle ihnable 'that they should be admitted to a 'share of 'in' which wre.are now engaged, and refuse- us the chit 'power. - (finr4 kiae.) The discUssiOno Sir, means of with% the subjects of the realm in its de- • tinti.-4#4i, ..iier4 -Jut tile **Kg heigoat • asp inictittablei and. wonder àwØ mlyr Such Mel Se its behlist. If soz—if the Sat of HIBAVIII be dgaitist them! the Catholics mtist submit; but before they retire, they have a right to claim, that what is assert e d to their prejudice should be made manifest by proof, clear arid lucid as the light of Heaver; itself. ' 04 this point I will join issue on the part of the Cathos lice, and am ready to dispute the ground, step by step* and inch by. inch ; but whatever might be the result of such a contest, whether Justice prevail or be put to silence, I would desire the House to 'beware how they listen to a factious clamour, which would drive them to outlaw-the Irish people, and draw down upon themseln., and the country disaster and disgrace.— The Hon. Member then went into a minute enumera tion of the objections which had been advanced against the Catholic claims. The first endeavoured to prove, that the Oath of Supremacy had originally no poli tical bearing whatsoever, till the time of Charles 11. He admitted that i t ha d been used as a political in- . strument from that time ; but asserted, that an oath bad been substituted for it in Ireland, by which the Catholics of that country denied the dangerous prin ciples which were imputed to them. The refusal of the Catholics to take an oath which militated against , their principles, he contended was a proof ot their `political sincerity ; and when their opposers refused to.take their oath if they adhered to their principles, wl le they expressed themselves ready to take their simple assertion if they swerved from them, they. were guilty of as great an absurdity as transub t in dation- itself; the one rebelled as completely against reason and demonstration as the other did against the senses. The.Honourable Member next procee ded to ridicule the idea of the Test and Corporation Acts being considered as bulwarks of the Constitn tion, and insisted that the Roman Cathelicset ere not excluded from Parliament by t'.e Bill of Rights; inatmuch•asihey had sat in it subsequently to its enact= ment, and reprobated the injustice they had expert: 1 enced. Shortly after the Revolution, when in lieu 1 of the promises that had beer, made them; not 4.617 that they should: retain the privileges of which they had been left in possession, but that they should re= ceive further indulgences, they found themselves sub jected by the Parliament, which was convened in the Ist •of William • and Mary, to penalties for re. cusancy, besides being divested of all their privileges: The Hon. and Learned Gentleman then observed that those who were concerned in that great *tent, the Revolution, did not atter where it was not ibis. lutely necessary ; and the great object was the li c it. city of the Throne, which they believed they could only accomplish by vesting it in the Proti stain suc cession. They secured it to the Protestant suc cession, but for the perfecting of that great work of freedom, much was left to be done which indeet could only be matured by the progress of ages—that time had now arrived. England was now engaged in fighting the cause of Europe—she was'opposed to aft ambitious man, far more boundless in his views than Louis the 14th, and possessing far mere extensive means of warfare. Such was our situation, that we required the hearts and hands of the whole Empire to strike this Colossus from the high eminence of his ambition. True it was that this Colossus appeased tottering, and he therefore would conjure the House ' not to let those bright prospects shine upon us in vain, by with-holding from millions wh.t would make them join heart and hand in the cause —(H ear .) , - They bad been told much about the church being its .1 danger—but he had clot yet been able to ascertain .l what ;vas meant by this cry of the church in danger Was it meant that the security of the Protestant Church could hereafter be affected by concession to the Catholics ? But how could the Protestant • Church be affected, when the very preliminary on ' which it was proposed to proceed was, that its rights privileges, and doctrines ,should be left as they were found. The only change that was desired, was, that . the privileges enjoyed by the Protestant under die - Constitution, should be extended to the CatholiC, fee the benefit and security of the Empire. As to tkie idea of concession enabling • the Catholics hereaftp to overturn the Protestant establishment, how could such an event be brought about I Was it feared that it might be done by force and out-of Parliament; or, by legislation in Parliament ? With respect to its being done by !Circe and out of Parliament, the mea sure itself would, in fact, deprive them of the pores 1 by taking from them the pretext ; besides, when es Catholics were brought within the pale of the Cop• stitution, they a ould feel an interest, in cot ampt with the Protestants, in opposing tiny such Wiebed design. Well, then, how was it to be accomplished by legislation in Parliament . ? But to expose tis I absurdity of any such ides he thought it was only necessary to state it ; !et this was one among the fanatic cries that hadi.been sent round the coun try. Suppose six Catholic Members should get into that House—nay, suppose the whole hundred for Ire. land consisted of Catholics—was it natural, was it rational to suppose that they would be able to ov er. turn a Protestant Parliament ? But these were the mere reveries of disordered brains I Why then should the House defer the consideration of these claims?. Was it required of them that they should wait till the establishment was tottering, when it might be said, that die Church would be more secure by the agita. 1 don of this question ? Surely they could not be wait.. ins for any such period. At the present moment the Irish Catholics were as inferior in point of property, as they were superior in number to the Protestants; would it be wise to wait till they hecanie superior in property, when they would claim what they now asked for of the Legislature of the land.— By concession to the Catholics, the Protestant este. blishment, and the State, would be strengthened, notwithstanding what the Clergy bad said to the ' contrary—they who had mitres ea their heads, or in their heads, as had been ingeniously observed. 1 deter even the consideration of the Catholic Clain* had something of dishonesty about it, when it upp. remembered that the Union had been brought *boot chiefly by holding out the idea, that by such event that body would be materially benefited, as their claims would be more likely to.meet, not only with attention, but wish acquiescence in a British Perlin. ment. And might not Ireland complain, if she wen told that her claims were not listened to, because cry had been set up in England against her ; how much worse would they think of this circus* stance, if the Noble Lord (Castlereagh) who was mainly instrumental in pointing out to the IrisliCstheis lics the benefits if union, leagued himself with that