Star. — London, England, 1820-07-07 00:00:00

~- Nu - B ER 10.41.1. PARLIA3IENTARV PROCEEDINGS. HOUSE OF LORDS, JULY 6. Some judicial business was this day transacted, after which the usual adjournment during pleasure, preliminary to a debate, took place. On the resuming of the lloote, a number of Bills, chiefly plicate 0: local, were brought up Irons the Commons by %lr. WILMOT, Sir 11. PARNELL, Sir 3. Gaansm, and other 3lcmbcra, which were severally read the lint time. The Labourers' Wages Bill was rtad a second time. On the motion of Lord AUCKLAND, the Order of the Day for their Lordships going into a Committee on the Insolvent De: , wrs' Bill was discharged, and the sane renewed for to morrow. The Bills upon the table were forwarded in their respective stjgvi. Marquis of LA NSDOW N gave notiee of his intention to move the second reading of the Capital Felonies Bill on Monday. PETITION FROM THE QUEEN. Lord DAC RE rose to present a Petition from her Majesty, in which he said her Majesty could not help expressing her surprise at the coarse of proceeding Vhicii had been adopted against her; but she still prayed that she might be heard by Counsel at the bar. On the present occasion, he had reason to be lieve, that their Lordships would not be hostile to the request, as from what had been said by. Noble Lords' on tile opposite side of the House, in the course the debate, yesterday evening, there could be no ob jection to hear Counsel after the first reading of the Bill. On the motion o f his Lo r d s hip, t h e Petition was then brought up, and read as fullows: " THE PETITION OT CAROLINE AMELIA, QUEEN CONSORT OF ENGLAND, TO THE LORI'S SEIRIICAL AND TEMPORAL IN PARLIAMENT AISSEMIILEE. " The Queen has heard, with ittexpreesible astonishment, of .the proceedings of the House of Lords; proceedings which have in view the dissolving of her privileges, and founded upon the Report of a Secret Committee, before whom she had no Counsel to assert her rights and who have proceeded entirely on written papers, and by whom no witnesses have been examined. She further learns, with surprise and regret, that her Counsel . were last• 14ht refused a bearing at the bar of the House of Lords ; and further, that a list of the witnesses, on a future oc claion to be produced against her, has been refused to her. Un der such circumstances, her Majesty doubts whether she can do more than make her most solemn protest against the whole of such proceedings. Still, however, she relies on the justice of coui Lordships, and still prays that her Counsel may be heard at your Bar to state her claims." Lord DACRE thoul;ht her Alajesty's Counsel should be now called in. The LORD CHANCELLOR observed, that the Petition did not state what the points were to which Counsel were to be heard. He contended, that it Arouid be irregular, after the Bill had been read a first time, to hear Counsel on the part of any person interested in it, until it had been moved to read it a second time;and the proofs had been gone through, which would justify a second reading. It was stated, in the Petition of yesterday, that the Counsel were entrusted with the communication of weighty matters, hich might affect the conduct of herfuture defence; but then that defence, it was presumable, might never be called for. It was .averred that the facts ri:ich were to be stated might affect the nature of the proceedings; but then the regular time for hear ing them had not yet arrived. The real question was, not whether Counsel should be called to the ha-, but whether on being called, they were to be inA:uczed as to ss hat points they were to confine themselves to ? if they were not so instructed, they could not be heard, unless their Lordships intended to surrender all their functions. They could not grant a bearing against the proceedings in the pre sent case, without interfering with the privilege of the Peer who had laid the charge on the table. It was altogether the most extraordinary proceeding v, ilia he had ever known to have been submitted to that House. The Earl of LIVERPOOL said, that Counsel might be called in and questioned as to the Points to sshich they wished to be beard, and then withdraw, the pleasure of the House was ascertained. If their intention wiy; to object to the preamble of the Eli, that was an intelligible gronnd—if to require a list of v:itnesses, that was an intelligible ground—if to request delay, that was an intelligible ground— so would be the demand of a speedier progress of the Bin. He was of the same opinion with the Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolsack, that Counsel could not be heard on the matter generally. As the Petition contained no averments which confined them to particular points, the house should ascertain and reArict them. It was then ordered, on the mo tion of his Lordship, - that Counsel should be called in and questioned as to the points on which they wished to address the Home ? Counsel was then called i;i, and Mr. Bnouonnza and Mr. DENMAN appeared at the bar, when The LORD CHANCELLOR said, that he had been commanded by the House to ask them what the paints were on which they wished to be heird in sup- • porting the prayer of the Petition ? Mr. Baouomix then addressed the House, and said, that he now stated, in behalf of the Royal Pe titioner, that he was instructed to make answer ge nerally, and to take an objection to the whole of the proceedings. Islet. Majesty had' been laic night Served' with a copy of the Bill which had been read a first time, and ordered to be printed. That Bill con- tallied charges of the grossest nature against that ; Illustrious Personage, and her Majesty could not suffer the shortest interval to elapse without preferring at the bar, by her Counsel, objections to the who.e cqusse of proceedinglicedites. As a Bill had been brought in and read a first time by their Lordship,' her Majesty could not but express her regret and ! disappointment that she had not been heard by her C6unsel yesterday, before the first reading of the Bill; anti that under all the circumstances of the case, their Lordships had not thought fit to comply with her request. On her part he had to state ob jections applicable to the peculiar circumstances in which her Majesty was placed, and to the iclation in which their Lordships might possibly be placed with .. ia11i11p....••........t.i.67-111„1J...--42ragaWNECILZ.-' 2 r."•._....".42:a .. :.. ! . .....7":.................„..=" 11 .7 . 77 1 77 . 4 -. 1 . .7... ................'" 0 77 - : .. 7 .., ' "...WW l ' , tf-'7 . _ , 7 . 1 . 71 .. 17 . 71r '4`.7" . ' '4 ~' . " 7 •-•....... . ... ~ — , - ; ' , ...: ;&:::77. n . . ..;,=ipPriagi: ii . .. • . . • - . - - . . ....• • a ,i.A.r Cent! _ . . , . . • • s fik • . . . . . • . • • . f_•e . ~--; •,, ': ~_•2r, - 4 . ..3 1 ...._ 4711 t, •'.• . . . 1 1 • *.% I 1e,.. •.7' "N h.. 34 sr 0 ' '''' -• . . . . -... . q t C :r • 4. "• ' ' Lt 1 1 1 . 0.. A• ~ • •la ~. .... 1 .. .. r. .. ,-.... iti . i . ..._. : t .....l."7.."'"!*""'''' VA . .. 4. _ t • p t . . s . a -_,, 1 . • 40,1 .4 , 1 , . I t , .- • r A+ k la . ~. • .. . i g t . (..... ) S .... • . :.• I 1 . . ' 6g 111;',j e i l 1 i ' . .-- . • - e.e.._____/ i % 1 1 ~. . • " P AM Pc • . • ( 44t.,N.. 4 ' • ~ . • • • ' 1 • FRIDAY, JULY " 1 " 1820. . . .•• I , P I R - r t V . 41 4112.t711%.1, ••••••••••• ... • . • regard to her - , in case the proceeding went fOrkvard. He was also instructed to speak to the mode of pro ceeding ; and, touching the time,. whether' a stated period was fixed upon, or if it was intended to delay the further proceeding without specifying any parti cular time. These matters he was .to. go into either entirely or partially, as there was a possibility. that circumstances might occur which would make a further delay requisite. He was also to speak to certain.matters that might be well calculated 'to pro duce an immediate effect in regard .to the further proceedings of their Lordships. He was authorised to state that this was the only stage of the business that now could allow her Majesty to make the state ments to which he alluded with any effect. And that she felt it a matter of serious detriment, that her Petition should have been rejected yesterday, and that she was not allowed to be heard before the Bill was read a first time. Last of all, her Majesty had to complain of a certain Report, which, was stated to have been laid on the table of that House, but of which, as a Parliamentary document, of course, her' Majesty could know nothing. However, it was not to be concealed that that Report had gone abroad, and had been made known to the Public in every shape and form of announcement. Its substance had been stated in print and spoken of, and every person, man, woman, and child, could repeat it to the letter. It had appeared in all the newspapers; it formed the subject of all conversation ; it was a topic of universal interest; but it might, for aught he knew, be a fabrication—a gross and scandalous libel- on their Lordships' Committee. But as the charges which that Report was said to convey had been so generally and consistently circulated, and as their Lordships had not committed or visited With any marks of their displeasure, any of the persons who had dared to prostitute their pens and tongues to the publication of such charges, he could not but feel such conduct on the part of their Lordships as at least affording some foundation for believing that the'Report had a bona fide existence, and upon this point her Majesty was most desirous of Ewing heard. If the Report did exisi, it contained statements which went even beyond the Bill; and which could not be affirmed by the ossing of the Bill, or negatived by its being thrown out. Those statements might, how ever, have the effect of exciting prejudices the most injurious to her Majesty's cause, and ought to be answered without delay. He therefore submitted, with all respect to the House, that Counsel were to speak generally to the whole of-the proceedings, and that the subjects which he had particularized were the only ones on which he had received instructions. -- -- Counsel were then ordered to withdraw. The LORD CHANCELLOR said, that it was not consistent with the usual way cf administering jus tice in that House, that Counsel should be heard generally. They should confine themselves to the mode of proceeding—the time, delay, or any other substantial ground necessary for doing complete jus tice to her Majesty. But a statement of other flat ters, in order to induce their Lordships to alter their course of proceeding, would be so anomalous a course to allow, that it ought by no means to be permitted. The matters to be stated were either matter of fact, or matter of law—if matter of. fact,' there was no principle on which it could be stated in the present course of the proceedings, and if matter of law, the necessity for it might never occur. He could only govern his own conduct by his own opinion. He would submit to whatever the House thought fit to direct; tow it would be with the greatest grief, that he should- see a precedent established in this case, which cotild not in other cases be m a de a ppli ca bl e to the ends of justice. Lord DACRE suggested, that the Counsel should be called in, and instructed by the House as to the points on which they were to be heard. TheLORD CHANCELLOR then moved, "That the Counsel should- be called in, and restricted to the mode of proceeding on the Bill then before the House, and the time and times of such proceeding." Earl GREY argued, that there cculd be no dan ger that the course of proceeding adopted in this case would ever form a precedent, as it was not likely that the occasion would ever again occur. He also contended, that as it was in itself a new and ex traordinary case, all their Lordships had to consider was, how substantial justice could be done, and that ' they should not exclude anything which substantial justice required. He could not help thinking that the' motion narrowed the instructions to Counsel too much ; it confined them to the mode of proceeding on the present Bill, and the time. But that was by no means the extent of the application of Counsel.— They applied to be heard, not only to the mode of proceeding upon the Bill, but against the mode of proceeding by Bill at all—( Hear, hear).—That he conceived to be a good cause for granting the hear ing in the peculiar circumstances of the case. Then, as to the time, it might be necessary to shew whe ther the delay should be previous to the commence ment, or in the course of the proceeding. He did Inot understand from Counsel what the nature of the ' facts were which they had to urge, but it was highly important that they should be heard, as they might have the effect of inducing their Lordships to alter the whole course of their proceedings—(Hear,.hear). Ile therefore did not think it right that the instruc ' tions to Counsel should be so narrowed according tol the terms of the m o tion as t o exc l u d e t h em from ' making statements which, in the present stage of 1 the business, might prove highly worthy of their Lordships' consideration—( Hear, hear).—He could ' not deoid throwing out these suggeseans, in the ' hope of inducing the House to give more latitude to ' the statements of Counsel. • Lord LIVERPOOL supported the motion. He contended, that Counsel should not have the liberty of stating maters of fact, without any restraint as to their object. He was of opinion that sufficient latitude was given by. the motion, and • although he was very desirous of hearing the Counsel, yet he 7, • - 1 could not consent to let it take place in such a way i what he could - say upon it. There tould be but oue as would infringe upon the privileges of a Peer. If mode of proceeding with respect to a particular Bat Counsel were at present he ar d a gains t th e proceed. i that was establish e d by t h e ru l es of the Houte, and it ing by Bill at a ll , i t wou ld b e inter f er i ng w i t h t h e j was not the part of Counsel to instruct them.upon it. privilege by which a Peer was authorized to lay a He had no new mode to propose. He did not 'meats Bill upon the table ; it was therefore very proper to suggest that the third reading should take pike that they should be confined to the mode of pro- beforethesecond—(allaugh)—o r that another Secret. ceecthigly the Bill brought in, and to the time and Committee should be appointed to back by their •Re times of such proceedin g . port the opinion of the fi rst . S uc h mo d es he did oat The LORD CHANCELLOR stated, that although mean to-propose, or any other equally novel and fan the Bill had been read a first time, and her Majesty ciful, and which he-could hardly state with a grave had received a copy 'of it, yet this was not the stage countenance. On the mode of proceeding, therefore, inavhich to o=ppose it; but on the -second reading of he was left nothing to object, either matter of fact, the Bill, wheneaer that might be moved for by any or matter of law. But as to the second point, the Noble Lord ; it would be competent to every person time, that indeed he could not understand ; but this interested in the Bill to be heard upon it. Their was but the one point on which he was permitted to • Lordships, heinsisted, could not hear Counsel gene- address their Lordships, whereas he had naturally rally at present, without making a surrender of all thought, in the first instance, that there were two_ their functions. which mistake arose from the mode haring been se- The Marquis of LANSDOWN was of opinion parated from the time, as a distinct and substantial that the hearing of Counsel generally, and the allow- topic ; but if he were to go into an argument to prove ing them to state those circumstances which might that their Lordships should change the mode of pro affect the proceeding by Bill at all would be nest ceeding before the second reading, he should be stopt aflforinable to the ends of justice. by the rules of the House, according to which, when • Earl GROSVENOR thought that no pojorof form strictly enforced, Counsel could not be heard against ought to have the force of precluding CoOnsel from . the Bill until the second reading. He was, conse being heard, in order to shew that there were strong quently, to speak as to time, and that only. He was reasons to induce their Lordships to alter their course not allowed to urge those weighty considerations to of proceeding ; the refusal to hear those statements their Lordships which might counteract cite effect of now might place their Lordships - in- an unpleasant the charges suspended over his Illustrious Client, and dilemma, which ought, if possible, to be avoided. which were, perhaps, suspe n d e d for her absolute de- Lord LAUDERDALE denied that Counsel ought struction ; but the very existence rf charges, %%Melt to be heard generally until the second reading. It were not allowed to Ee answered, made it the interest would then be a conclusive argument it Counsel of her Majesty to require justice in the speediest man could shew that it war not a case for legislation. nar. She asked for no delay—she was teach- to enter TheLORD CHANCELLOR again spoke in sup. at once upon her defence, and to ?epel the charges in port of his motion, and said, that on the second the Report and Preamble of the Bill—and to prove reading Counsel could be heard without prejudice to them in the whole,. and every part, a tissue of unpa their argument, as against a legislative measure. ralleled falsehood I She called upon their Lordships Lord HOLLAND thought the situation of her Ma- with an earnest, a pressing, and be might say, a jesty one of peculiar hardship. Whether Counsel.were clamorous voice, for open and immediate justice I=. to be heard now or hereafter was a question which She was prepared to enter into her defence that even ought not to be decided by a reference to forms, for the ing, if' it was their Lordships' pleasure, or to-morrow, whole proceeding was anomalous, and ought to be 'and, in her behalf, he had to require that the second regulated by the circumstances of its own case, con- reading of the Bill might be brought on as soon as • 'sistently with the ends of substantial justice. If Coun- possible, for the purpose of throwing it out. He .-)el could not be heard against the Bill until the second spoke on this point principally from his own feelings reading, then they could not be heard .until the evi- as an individual ; and he had to implore their Lord dence in support of the accusation had been gone ships not to interpret anything that he might say, into, on which the second reading was to be moved. 'under the pressure of these, in his own disfavour, or , Thus the case ondhe part of the accusation would that of his Illustrious Client. He tnust deprecate be heard, before Counsel could object to the mode of their Lordships laying any- stress upon anything that proceeding, and the most serious injury might be resulted from unfhunded rumour or inteiested mis done to the accused, although the Counsel should representation. He trusted nothing of that kind then :succeed in their application. He (Lord Hol- would operate to the prejudice of his Client in that land) could not understand what was meant by the place, from whence equal justice should emanate to mode of proceeding, if it did not mean the mode of the lowest as well as to thehighest individual in the proceeding by a Bill at. all. In that case, the mat- realm. GOD send she had never risen higher than to ters of fact might fairly be stated -in support of the the humblest of the King's subjacts! She N't uld then , . argument against a Bill, and m i g ht th e better enable in such a case, have those benefits a hich a - ere a lowed the Counsel to prove that such a measure would be to tie meanest; she would, with reference to ti ial, hare onerous to their client. At no time could these state- been furnished with a copy of toe 1,,,i it. z..rent, a list ments be so well made, as when the Bill was. pre- of the witnesses, and all those other a d vantages w hi c h sented, since they were not allowed to be made before. the equal laws of England extend to all under their Earl GREY again.speke in support of the prayer protection. The evidence against ker would be exa of the Petition. He said, that if Counsel were not mined in a Court of Justice, and she would have the allowed to state Their objections to the mode of pro- benefit of a verdict 'of a Jury of her country. None ceeding by Bill until the second reading, that then it of those persons would have been .the followers of might appear the House had gone to much useless party, or influenced by gratitilde for favours re trouble ; for if their Lordships did not think it a mere celved, or influenced by the hope of favours in ex mockery to hear Counsel on the second reading, they pectation ; but would be tried by twelve honest, up= ought to presume that matters might be stated Of so right, and impartial Englishmen. - Such would have much weight and importance, as to induce their been the lot of his Illustrious Client, had her fortunes Lordships to throw out the Bill; and then all their been among the humblest; but her present very ex labour would be lost. ' There was every considera- alted station tended to destitute her of all these fair tion that ought to weigh with the House to enforce and legal advantages. Recurring then to the subject the propriety of hearing-Counsel against the Bill in of time, the Learned Counsel repeated her Majesty's the present stage. It would facilitate justice, dirni- wish that the shortest interval possible might elapse nish trouble, prevent delay, and allay much public between that night *a:ii the second reading of the agitation. As to irregularity, it was no argument Bill, and was in anxious hope of its being yet got in the present case, which had been from the Outset rid of. In another view, something might transpire irregular. It was not consistent with the forms of from evidence which may compe. their Lordships to the House, that Counsel should have been called in act as Judges In a criminal proceeding. Nor could at all, yet that had been done, and was properly they, he thought, as yet, have made up their minds done; and he could not think that a formal objection that there could be no impeachment in the case. The ought now to prevent them from hearing those mat- Statute of Edward 111. might not be acted upon, yet ters which might influence their final decision. they may have to consider e halter any circumstance The LORD CHANCELLOR said, that althou g h may not have happened at M a lt a , Gib ra l tar , or some - the House had committed one irregularity, it was no ether place within the Kin g ' s d om i n i ons , that may reason that it should commit eve r ether. fie then give a ne w t urn to t h e c h arge . re-stated his former arguments, after which Counsel The LORD CHANCELLOR remarked, that the were called in. . - House had already determined upon its course of proceeding, and the Counsel was no t to state what Mr. BROUGHAM and Mr. DENMAN again appeared at the Bar, when . he supposed the House would do in a possible con ' The, LORD CHANCELLOR said, that he was tingence which he might imagine. commanded by the House to allow them to be heard Mr. BRotrollA* said, no power under Heaven s at the Bar, confining themselves to the mode of pro hould prevent him from doit i g hi s d ut y to hi s Ill us . trious Client; but he might be put do wn ; th ere w a s ceeding upon the Bill, and the time and times of the proceeding. - no resisting power ; yet he knew that their Lordships Mr. Bsioucuelt then addressed the House. He said weye wont to be just. - be had some di ffi culty to comprehend what the par- The LORD CHANCELLOR—" The House is titular points were to which the House had limitedjust sqlen it makes - an order to point o ut t h at course or rather tied him down ; but taking them up with which the Coansel shall pursue." all possible good faith and zeal, he begged the House, Mr. BROUGHAM proceeded, and repeated her Ma ifjesty's anxious wish that.no further del a y m i g h t ta k e he failed in not catching the right sense of these restrictions, and should' therefore say anything which place. .He censured the charges advan ce d at N eu ill y as false and unfounded, and further, they were f a l se , might not come exactly within their limits, to impute it to misapprehension, on points which he bad not had foul, and ( most malignant. He Melt co n f i ! ent t h e time to consider, and not to any intentional deviation House could never make itself a party i n suc h a case. from the strict meaning of their Lordships' injunction. He heard they had ordered the Att orne y-G enera l to He had been instructed by her. Majesty to speak attend ; still he could not think that an ythi ng b eyond public justice was. timed at. He was at peseta ar against this procedure by Bill ; but he now gathered from the restriction imposed. upon.him, as to the guing upon the question-of terms merely. T he pre. points to which his observations were confined, that amble of the Bai t he again insi s ted, p resente d a tissue of foul ant amiss falsehood, becaine, if a be would be right, in assuming that their Lordships tenth part of it was believed, it would have bee n had sanctioned the proceeding by Bill, and had not the duty of the Crown Advisers to come forwa r d a only done that, but had come W a solemn decision here rose to order, an d to go on with it ; and although there were grave ob- long time ago. ' - jections against it, had se inflexibly decided as to re- he Bishop of EXETER fuse to hear one word against that determination, insisted that the Counsel had gone be7ond the line o f 1 This Bill was, then, to be looked upon as unalterable argument assigned to him by t he order of the H ouse. for the present, and irrevocable Goo knows how long, Lord HOLLAND, in remarking upon 'the in ter . and therefore he was now tied down to die mode and ference of the Rev. Prelate, observed. the Spiritual i time. As to the former of the two, he. did not see Lord should have gone a little further , and she" u . . _ .