Star. — London, England, 1820-07-07 00:00:00

currutinees he was perfectly content to alloVr the lion. undeestood by the House. The imputatiob +mini Member to proceed with his motion. out against Ministers, by the Honourable Member, MILAN COMMISSION. ; he (Lord Castlereagh) would leave to the consider- Sir R. FERGUSSON rose, in pursuance of notice, ation of the House, to whom he would confidently to bring under the consideration of the House the trust for a more favourable interpretation of the con subject of the Milan Commission, and in doing so, duct of Ministers throughout the whole of these pro be assured the House that nothing but a strong sense ' ceedings. He should therefore confide himself to the of duty could induce him to overcome his reluctance simple motion before the House; not, however, be to undettake the task. His repugnance was increased cause he was desirous of withholding any inforina by the consciousness of his inability to do justice to tion from the House of which he was possessed.l a subject so very important in every point of view, Whatever might be the suspicions of the Honourable and pregnant with such serious consequences to the Member, either as to the mode or principle of that Government of the country. Had Ministers pursued Tribunal of Inquiry, which he was pleased to call a a different course from that which they had selected, Commission, he (Lord Castlereagh) would assure the these discussions, so unhappy on every account, would House, that he never was engaged in a transaction, never have taken place. Had they not sanctioned the circumstances of which he could publish with 'the omission of her Majesty's name from the Liturgy less reluctance than those of the present one. As all woulci have been hushed. But they adopted a far as he knew those circumstances, he felt confi diffel et& conduct, fatally for the tranquillity of dent that they would bear the light—(Hear, hear). — the country—(Hear, hear, hear).--Even after they But he was sure the House would consider that to irad advised this unjust measure, it wa s in their be a most singular proposition, which called for cer power still to recal their acts, and recommend the taro information, at a time when proceedings ,were restoration of her name to the public prayeis.-.- going forward,• which would inevitably involve the This omission no one attempted to justify, with the exposure of that very information. Anything more exception of a Right Honourable Gentleman oppo- subversive of the principles of justice, and so inju site (Mr. Canning) who had said, that the withdraw- rious to the impartial termination, of a judicial-course erg her Majesty's name from the Liturgy, was a part of proceedings, was never exhibited in that House; of a system which it had been thought proper to and he was certain, that to the understanding of the adopt with respect to her Majesty. The Noble Lord Hon. Member himself, such must be the view of the (Castlereagh), bad said, that unless her Majesty had proceeding. He (Lord Castlereagh) should there conic to England, no proceedings would have been fore prorose, as an amendment, the previous ques thought of against her—so that in fact, her crime don. He did not wish to wrap up the acts of Go y, as the setting her foot in England—(Hear, hear).— vernment in secrecy. But he was anxious to avert The moment her Majesty had committed this crime, a proceeding which would only give to the House a the Green Bag, with its odious charges, was brought premature and partial view of circumstances, the down and laid on the table. But the feelings of the whole of which would come before them afterwards House were so decisive against the entertaining of its in the regular time. He had no hesitation, however, contents, that it was deemed expedient to aaandon in stating, at present, that the knowledge of the the proposition for taking it into consideration. In facts which irnmediinely formed the ground of the consequelice of this hostility, the Noble Lord, to use charges against her Majesty was not the result of an expression of his own, " turned his back upon any gratuitous efforts, or fishing out by the Ministers. himself," and said of his own motion, that it was On the contrary, the outline of these facts reached " derogatory to the dignity of the Crown, and inju- Government from so many grave quarters, and offis rious to the best interests of the country."—(Hear, cial sources—in short, they were of such notoriety, hear)—llowever, it was reasonable that the Public that it was impossible for Ministers to resist giving should be made acquainted with the source whence them the deepest consideration, unless it were este. the documents were obtained upon which the charges blished, that they might shut their eyes to transac against her Majesty were founded. He (Sir R. ter- dons which deeply involved the honour of the Crown, gusson) should therefore state to the House that, on account of the repugnance which they might feel which perhaps was known to many by rumour, but in other respects, to entertain these serious and re '-hick he had reason to believe was entitled to credit . . pulsive transactions. Ministers could not have slept Ile should be glad to hear the statement contra- upon the information, and they would have been dieted, for there were many characters that stood wanting in their duty, if they failed to take tip the implicated in it—( Hear, hear).—lt had been gene- matter as they had done. He would be prepared to Tally it.l..lefst3od, that some time ago a certain' num- chew hereafter, that the departure of the individuals her of perso. - .- from this country were employed to from this country, for the purpose of inquiry, which go to Milan f r the purpose of obtaining information was erroneously called a Commission, for it had not with respect to the Queen. He believed that the the seal, or any other of the appendages c-f a Corn credit of this invention was not due to Ministers, but mission, was proper. Assuming the proceeding to to a Gentleman holding a high official situation in be proper, the next question for consideratim was, the country ; in short, to throw away all unneces- as to the mode of executing the Commission.— WI delicacy upon the subject, the Vice-Chancellor The Honourable Member would have an opportu was the individual who first proposed the Commis- nity hereafter of being convinced, that all the in sion—(Heer, -hear).—lf he (Sir R. Fergussan) was formation was not drawn from Italy. The Commis wrong in th e imputation, he should toe happy to be sion, if so it was to be called, was instituted upon the set tight, At all events, it was very well understood principle of uniting legal intelligence, industry, and that this Gentleman took great pains to make him- skill, with a view to separate truth from falsehood, self serviceable in the affair, and that he at length Nor was the Commission confined to Milan, but ex succeeded in finding out the project which had been tended to all Europe. He hoped he need not assure since acted upon. The Vice-Chancellor etat pro- the Honourable Member of the indisposition, of Mi poled, as the head of the Commission, a Gentleman nisters to take any step that was not perfectly con -.Oro had practised with reputation at the same Bar sistent with the principles of British justice; and v ids himself. The Commissioner, however, it was when the opportunity should arrive, he had no doubt discovered, was ignorant of several of the languages of being able to prove that such an indisposition was of Europe, an acquaintance with Which might have entertained and acted upon by Ministers. He would been necessary to the purposes of the Commission, submit to the House, that it was impossible for Mi and therefore it was expedient to make use of the nisters, when facts and communications were flowing aiterposition of an interpreter—(Hear, hear).— in upon them, to avoid instituting some proceeding, Another Gentleman was then added to the Commis- which was calculated to satisfy, from its character, t'on, whose name he did not know, nor did he care the minds of those most concerned in the result of to know it—(A laugh).—This corps rfespiona,ge pro- the inquiry. The Honourable Member had spoken ceeded to the discharge of their mission, and were of the Vice-Chancellor,_ and certainly there was no employed fior some time, when the great commander thing in the conduct of that Gentleman calculated lia;sell, the Vice-Chancellor, thought it necessary to blemish his character. Certainly there was no to look after his little army of observation! That ground of objection to his being employed in 1818, Gentleman did assuredly go to Milan, and returned or before it, by Ns present Majesty, then Prince of to this country on the 19th of December, 1818. With Wales; and certainly, in any event, he (Lord Castle-' respect to the expense of the Commission, he under- reagh) was yet to learn, that there was anything in stood that it was very great. Whether or not the the conduct of that distinguished lawyer, connected tribunal under the Commission was open or secret with this transaction, inconsistent with his character. be did not know, but he was convinced that the On the contrary, the interference of such an indivi existence of it was known to Ministers, and that it dual might well be considered as a pledge for the in was impossible it could go on without the knowledge tegrity and propriety of the proceeding in which - he also of the Aust, ian Government. Again, he believed had engaged. The Vice-Chancellor had applied he was correct in stating, that the Report of the to Mr. Cook to superintend the Commission. He Commissioners was received by the .slinistets a year (Lord Castlereagh) had not the pleasure of knowing ago. Here he begged to deny that the hostility this Gentleman; he saw him but once, but cer expressed against the whole proceeding, was merely tainly he never saw an individual better calculated ex idle clamour, confined only to a few persons. to excite favourable. impression than this Gentle -It was no such thing. The outcry against it ex- man, by the respectability of his appearance, and tended from the Land's End to the Or kney Islands. the gravity of his character !—(Loud laughter).— The question was not whether or not the Queen was Certainly the Gentlemen opposite must admit, that it guilty—but whether or not the highest subject in the would be highly improper to have sent a young Gen realm should have that justice which was not denied tleman upon such a mission, who might indeed have to the meanest? Was this justice extended to her? been more enabled to get into secrets of that nature. It was not. She was first unjustly treated by having He could not imagine a character more suited to the her case pre-judged by the conduct of Government nature of the task, than that of the individual who towards her; and next by the Bill, which, as it ap- had been employed. As to his ignorance of foreign peared from the Report on the table, was brought languages, did not that fact convey an assurance into the Lords. Returning again to the subject of that it was not intended that this Gentleman should the expense of the Commission, he understood it arrive at his objects by the arts of insinuation. He amounted to no le ss a s um than £33,000, of which (Lord Castlereagh) would assure the House in the £ll,OOO were drawn during the first five months.— strongest manner, that no injunction—no caution New he would engage for half this sum, employed had been omitted by the Government against receiv in buying up affidavits amongst some of the rascally ing, or being prejudiced by hearsay statements ; and people of Italy, to blacken the character of every wo- he was sure that when the information came before man in the country !—(Hear, hear). And it was upon the House, that there would not be a second opinion thtse affidavits that a Queen's character was to be as to the sincerity with which Ministers had urged b:asted!—(/car). In stating what he had so far their injunctions; and, above all, the impression that stated, he had been actuated solely by a sense of duty, the individuals going out would derive any advan end havi:ig performed his painful task, he should tage from succeeding in making out matter of charge tcntent hitriselt by moving— against her Majesty ! He was satisfied, in short, that " That an humble Address be presented to his Majesty, pray- as soon as the whole of the case was laid before it; him to give directions to the proper Officer to lay before the 'louse Copies®, all Cummission or Commissions, Instruction or , them they would see reason to respect the principles Instructions, which have been issued by his Majesty's COM- and the mode in whicy the proceeding was carried on. tread, since the departure of her Majesty the Queen from this —He hoped he had sufficiently repelled all insinua- Leedom, is the year 1814,f0r the purpose of taking depositions, dons against the character of Mr. Cook. He was unac tar otherwise makitig inquiry,. respecting her Majesty's conduct, tegcther with the amount of all sum s o f money, and by *hem conapanied on his mission by a respectable Solicitor, l with whom he (laird Castlereagh), was also ac-• they were issued, to the same end." Lord CAS'I'LEREItGH was sure the House would quainted. Upon the question of remuneration he concur with him in thinking that it would be Only a could only say, that the Gentlemen engaged onehe waste of time to enter into any detail of the circum- occasion had only received the incidental expenses.— stances of the proceedings against her Majesty, as The whole detail of those expenses would be brought undoubtedly an opportunity would arrive when such before the House in due time ; and it was only right a detail would be made, and when alone it would be that as the Queen was to be allowed the expenses at weer to make it, with a view to its being completely tending the defence, that those Amid also be allowed -, • • • oici . ci . •14 1 : i `bought n or .the impels& egra tog er. t were allowed, if a Bill of this nature were suffered to pass Into a lawi he contended that the tawi:oir country would be totally subverted, and no man i the kingdom would be safe—(clear): They had A right to know who the author of this measure wa5....: •• .) That individual was answerable to the House 14 another point of view, perhaps Ai important as those hi had mentioned s—he was answer able as tht enemy' . of the Sovereign ; for no man could tell what situa• tibn the King must be placed in before the Bill passed: Whatever Ministers might state, this was a mere prim :rate charge: it was the King *anting to get rid of the Queen—(Heal',hiar); Ministers knew the re was _ _ no •. , • ivikh were ereiteit liji rbcntirsg evidence td sfiistaia the allegations of the charge against her Majesty.— There was no mystery whatever in this kralisaction ; the whole would be fully developed. He toeteeivei, however, that the gallant Officer and the Gentlemen on the other side, were disposed to give it.the lilt of a- party question—(Hear , hear). 'They wished to hurry his Majesty's Ministers into an inquiry on col . - lateral points, before the principal question could be well commenced. In fact it appetred that *the gal lant Officer was, as it were, anxious to drag then Into it. Surely they ought, in decency and fairness * to wait the result of the proceeding now pending in the other House, before they put either himself or his friends upon their trials—(Hear, hear, hear). — If Government did then give the necessary explana-c tions, thete might, perhaps, be some grounds for the animadversions of Honourable Gentlemen opposite. He must protest against the principle acted upon in the present instance. Was it at a moment when a solemn inquiry was pending respecting the conduct of the Queen, that his Majesty's Ministers were to be called upon for their defence, and placed, as he had already observed, upon their trial ? • He sincerely deprecated this mode of proceeding, as it necessarily obliged him to give garbled and partial explanations, in order to vindicate the characters of most respect ab!e individuals from foul imputation. He thought he should best consult the disposition of the House, not by voting in the negative on this motion, but by moving the preyious question as an amendment. He , trusted this would be a caution to Honourable Mem bers on the other side, and that they would not in future suffer their zeal to get the better of their un derstanding—(Hear, hear). He hoped that the House would not, by acting on the principles recommended by the gallant Officer, permit the character of Parlia ment to be lowered. He claimed ne indemnity for Ministers : all he desired was, that no accusations should be made till the hour arrived for meeting them fairly by an open explanation. The question having been put from the Chair, Mr.CR EEVEYsaid,notwithstanding he might incur the displeasure of the Noble Lord, and notwithstand ing the protest and the warning the Noble Lord had given to the House, would maintain that the propo sition of his gallant Friend was a perfectly just one, and the time precisely that in which the motion ought to have been made. His gallant Friend had riot precipitated his motion ; he had delayed it till a certain proceeding took place in the other House of Parliament. So anomalous a course was, perhaps, never pursued upon any former occasion. The queen of this country was criminally proceeded against— and how? By , the introduction of a Bill, in which she was called by the most infamous and scandalous names. Neither her Majesty nor that House had any information on the subject; and, under these circum stances, his gallant Friend said what he conceived to be most proper—" Let me see the foundation of this measure. if you make a charge of this nature, let me see your infernal Milan Commission, or whatever Commission it may be, on whose statement it is founded." It was quite a novelty, a thing hitherto unknown to the Constitution of this country, for the King to authorize a Commission to hunt a object with Lawyers, Attornies, and Spies, assisted by the Emperor of Austria, through every part of Europe! (Hear, hear!)—This, indeed , - was quite a novel system. It was dangerous when any responsible servant of the Crown was placed at the head of such a proceeding; it was much more dangerous when a person like Mr. Leach—he begged his pardon, he should have said Sir John Leach—who was not a responsible servant of the Crown, organized a system of espionage against any individual of this country ; but it was still worse when a person, placed in the situation of Ithat Gentleman, inflamed the feelings of particular persons, by stating to them things of a doubtful na ture, but which were calculated strongly to excite their passions—(Hear, hear). —They had a right, he contended, to have this Vice-Chancellor before them —(A .laugh).,—He would maintain that he was a dis turber of the public peace of this country—(Hear, hear, and Order).—He would shew how he was a disturber of the public peace. In 1814, all the un happy differences between his Majesty and the Queen were supposed to be settled : an arrangement with respect to money matters took place; and his Ma- jesty's Ministers negociated with her for leaving the country. It was quite impossible that the Noble Lord opposite, or the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Canning), considering the feelings he had expressed towards the Queen, emit( have again awakened those differences which were thought- to have expired.— Who then had done it? It was the Vice-Chancellor who had kept alive the vindictive feelings of his Majesty towards the Queen—(Cries of Order, order). He was not out of order—he would contend that it was the Vice-Chancellor who had kept alive the vin dictive passions of the King against the Queen !—. (Hear, hear, and Order; order).—lf the feeling were not vindictive, he did not know what the word "vin crime cognizable bq law, and therefcre they sought to relieve him by Bill. He must then appear as a private individual when he came to Parliament for relief; and when he came before that House to be released from his wife, he must come like all per sons applying for relief to a Court of Equity—with clean hands !—(Order). He owed all this to Sir John Leach—(Order, order), When a case of that nature came before them, they must use the words of Jesui Cultist when the woman was taken in adultery—, " Let him that lath no sin cast the first stone !" It Lwas, as he before observed, the Vice-Chancellor who lrad placed the King in this situation. They were told 1 that there must be no recrimination in this case. He knew that no such word was allowed in a Court of Justice; but, as he had before stated, when his Majesty applied to that House,he must come with clean hands. The Bill declared her Majesty to be guilty of add.: tery ; and when that measure came before the House, it would be their duty to inquire, whether, when the Princess of Brunswick, the cousin of his Majesty, came to this country to espouse him, he was not him , 'self then living in adultery ?—(Order, order). Of this , he was sure, that the King had been placed in his present situation by the officious adviser to whom be had alluded. He saw the proceeding with pain and regret from the beginning ; and when the Message came down he warned the House of the situation in which it would• place the country, because he was certain that the course adopted on this occasion, that of proceeding by Bill, would not only overturn the • laws of the land, but would shake the steady, sober, moral habits of the Peopll! (Hear, hear).-Lboking Ito the case in every point of view, there was, in his opinion, an absolute necessity for the production of this Milan Commission, in order that they might properly know the author of these Unfortunate tits cunittances—( ( fear, hear). Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, but the House did not divide, The previous question was carried without a division. HIS MAJESTY'S MESSAGE. Lord CASTLEREAGH rose and said, that it would be inconsistent with his feelings as-aprivate individual, and his public duty, to suffer such ob servations as had been made to pass unnoticed. He did not interrupt the Honourable Gentleman, but he protested that no oneracquainted with the transaction to which he had so alluded, could breathe a sugges tion of the kind the House had heard. Nothing.was ever more foreign to the mind of an august Personage, under all the painful circumstances in which be had been placed (and never were those circumstances more painful)—nothing was ever more opposite to his mind than a vindictive spirit. The very reverse was the temper which he had displayed. And he stated it to his honour, that whatever sense he enter tained of the injury he had suffered, however much his private feelings were aggrieved, he had cordially lent himself to every effort that had been made to pro tect.the country from the evils of the inquiry which had been forced upon it. That Personage had acted throughout with the utmost forbearance ; and, if it was to be sought whence the necessity for public die , closure arose, it would be found not in him, but in the nature of the case, and in her Majesty's resolution.— The Nation, indeed, ought to be grateful to it s So vereign for the disposition he had evinced. He would add nothing more. The indications with which the Honourable Gentleman's speech was marked- by the House, conveyed its sense of it. more forcibly than any animadversion he could use..—(Hear, hear!) — The Noble Lord now went on to the Course of 00. ceeding which it was proposed to adopt on the Order of the Day for taking up the King's Message, in cona sequence of the proceedings in the Upper Hewed He took a review of what had been done since the Message had been brought down, the Address in consequence, and the postponements, to afford time to effect a compromise, and avoid disclosure and discussion, and the calamity which had fallen upon them. By the Queen's answer, they were placed in a new situation, and he had felt that it became him to name a day on.which to lay the charges before the House, subject to an understanding, that if any proceedings were adopted in another place, they , might think it advisable to alter their course. thought it would be more consistent to give the lead to the Lords to examine evidence on the Bill before it. On these grounds, he conceived it would be better that her Majesty should repel the charges where they were instituted. • He had no better plan to offer, stud theretore proposed to desist. The only question was ; what the House ought to do in accordance with'the view they had taken of the question from the begin.: ;sing? It might perhaps be desirable to adopt rather , a suspensive than a conclusive measure ; especially as ' they could not foresee what turn the discussions else= where might take, and what it might be necessary for them to do. He instanced several occurrences which might be grtanids for wishing that the subject had been left open—the Lords discontinuing on grounds not satisfactory to the Commons—the House wishing to take cognizance of the Bill, if sent down to them, and the evidence—or the inclination. if it failed, to eiamine into the conduct of Ministers, to see how far their proceedings were justified. On these grounds, he submitted that the Order of the Day for the reconsideration of the Message might be read, and postponed to the 15th of August; by which time it might be supposed the Lords would have made ,sufficient progress to enable them to take up the ques. don. If the House v.'as 'not sitting at the time, it would become a lapsed order, and ;night be resumed when they met. The Noble Lord moved a postpone ment accordingly. Sir M. W. RiDLEY objected to the proposed course, and thought it would be more equitable and just not to keep any ulterior proceedings suspended over the ' bead of the accused in this House, when her case bad , been fully brought to trial elsewhere. Alluding to the preceding debate, he declared that he could not dictive" meant—(Hear, hear).—Several years ago the Queen was prosecuted ; she' left the country ; after a long absence she came back, and now she was prosecuted again. If this were not vindictive he did not know what was. But now for the result of this Commission. By the aid of his confederates ,--the Emperor of Austria, Italian spies, English lawyers, and English money—he contrived to have this bag filled and brought over. It was cleai, how ever; that it was not wanted : it had been in the pos session of the Ministers of the Crown for these twelve months, and , they had never made any use of it. — This shewed that they considered its contents as of a private nature, and not as state evidence against the Queen. If they thought otherwise, why did they not prosecute her at, once ? Instead of doing , that, 'they negociated with her at St. Omer's and in this country ; and it appeared on the Journals of the House that the business was in fact a family difference. But the Queen, it appeared, would not consent to the propositions made to her. That was her crime at present. Her first crime was having placed her foot on the English shore, and her next, a determination not to leave it. This Vice-Chancellor was again an swerable to the House for . his conduct on this point, because they were called on to assist in the utter sub version cl the law of this country, and to adopt a completely anomalous proceeding in consequence of his conduct. Secret evidence had been taken by a Se cret CommisOon ; 'and, after twelve months had elapsed, it was laid before the Lords, who, without any examination of witnesses, had finally adopted certain cherges against the Queen. A Bill was then S`F: . r .*. . •t•:' r ;