Star. — London, England, 1820-06-22 00:00:00

I, abeyance, add left norertnpent to pursue the strong est measures \with ; Th at was in effect an irresponsible authority. rietlid not then mean to take up the time of tfieHouseNvith the details of this impotimnt4 question. Ministers had professed that they hall made every possible endeavour tor ecoaemiae l but the present proceeding was no argument in their , favOur. The expenie upder which the country was . now placed; in order' to . support an extensive mili tary, force, was enormous. It was little under ten millions, as every mint, on ft average, stood the nation in rather more than £lOO a-year. The. Noble Lord then animadverted upon the system of build ing barracks throughout the country, which, he said, was calculated more than anything else, to separate and distinguish the soldier from the citizen, and he denied that any necessity existed for acting upon that system to the extent to which it had lately been carried. In the third year of peace it was pushed far, and it was said that circumstances justified it ; and'now, in the sixth year of peace, there were nearly one hundred barracks throughout England, so that our free State gad the appearance of being garri• Boned with troops, whose duty it was to reduce it, like a hostile country, to absolute subjection. Such he could not believe to be the intention, but such was the aspect which it wore. He knew it was urged by Government, • that the greater number of these barracks were constructed, because it was impossible to resist the applications which had been made by Magistrates and others from various parts of the country, stating the discOntent and alarm which pre vailed, and the necessity which the loyal and peace able were put under of .reorriTing protection. But he had himself some experience of the manner in which such applications had irispn, and he would sot hesitate to say, that in many instances it would be highly ludicrous, as well is" improper, for Go vernment to comply with them. There were places,' for instance, where, if a man said that Grampound, or a place similarly circumstanced, was a rotten borough, and -ought to be disfranchised, the M 2.4 gistrates would immediately set him dowel as. ..a sweeping Reformer and a Radical !—(Hrar, hear). — lie would become subject to the obloquy and in. c iarenience which these imputations brought upon him ; and such a man, and all others in the same ' situation, would look upon the Magistrates as tyrants, whose object it was to persecute and oppress. Such feelings, on both sides, begot expressions of mutual ill will, and the rise and diffusion of • alarm was the, consequence. The Magistrates then, in conjunction with those who assume to themselves the title of ex elusively loyal, took the occasion of making appli cation to Government fur the erection of a barrack, as they were under an apprehension of a disturbance of the public tranquillity. On such grounds, bar racks were applied for and erected. But if Ministers • said that the discontents did really prevail in parts of the country though not in others, it chewed that the supposed disaffection of the people had been by no means so general as was originally represented. For his own part, he could not give his support to any • Ministry who did not evince and act upon a disposi- ' Lion to economy and retrenchment He concluded by moving, " That the number of 92,500 troops should be diminished by the amount of 11,910, leaving a reduced force of 80,590.' • The Earl of LIVERPOOL opposed the motion ; and in reply to the observations made by the Noble, Eisi, upon the discontents said to have existed among a part of the military, he stated, that the accounts had been excessively exaggerated; that the facts which had 'been reported to be the cause of that dissatisfaction were wholly unfounded,; that it had not gone to any extent, and had now wholly sub sided. Nor was it ascribable to the reasons which the Noble Earl had stated, who would have acted with more Frudence, had he abstained altogether from the introduction of the subject. As to the aug mentation of the military force, he (Lord Liverpool) felt a, much regret as any man in or out of that House, in finding it to be his imperative ditty to advise his Majesty to insert the words in the Speech from the Throne, on the necessity of an increased military establishment, which he would nut have done as long as it was at all practicable to preserve the peace and good order of the community, with out such additional means. He would not rely upon the weight of his own opinion; but he would leave it to every reflecting man, who knew at all the state of the country, and he would leave it to the calm judgment of the House, whether, under all the cir cumstance;, they did feel deeply impressed with the conviction that the strengthening the means of Go •ernment, by the additional number of troops, was not a measure necessary and quite indispensable ?— (Wear, hear).—As long as he had the honour of a share in his Majesty's Councils, be would not allow the reflections or observations of the Nosle Earl, or any other person, to prevent him from advising the adoption of such measures as were absolutely re• quired for the protection of the loyal and peaceable part of the population. The motion was then negatived without a divisiois, and the Bill was read a third time and passed. The House then adjourned. • IIOUSt: OF CONIDIONS. The House was occupied again to day in balloting for a Coen. tnipet on a Petition against the Return for Limerick; so that t h e Gallery was not opened till half.past four. The waft of the Members heed on were as fellow : Sir Charles Coles, G. W. Tayler, Esq. Sir W. C. Faille'', Z. Weds:home, Esq. J. Ramsbottorn, Esq. Sir J. Shelley, ll Esq. R. G. PilecdoaaM, Esq. George Salida, Esq. A. Robertson, Esq. S.•Crawley, Iraq. A. Buxton, Esq. T. Isere , Esq. James Davis, Esq. G. R. Dawson, Esq. Mr. C A LCRA FT brought up tbe &pert en the Drurpaane Theatre BBL The A , mmats were ordered to be angrtimed. Mr. NEW hIAN brought up the Report on the Exeter . - Market Bill. . After a few words from Mr. W. Couarnsr, Lord 14208. t ow, and Sir I. Corns, the debate on the recommitment tithe' Bin was adjourned dB to.morrow. Mr. sURTEIS presented a Petition from Jules aping the intended removal of the Eked= for that Sire. Sir C. ROBINSON preeented a deen, Petition from the Lead. owners in the County of Aberpraying relbd from the Malt Duty. Lord A. HAMILTON asked the Noble Lord opposite, is the absence of the Right Honourable Gendesnan, whether it was the intention of the Chassidim of the Exchequer to adhere the tiss Malt Dudes in Scotland? to- LordntrLEREAGH profemetl him & amble to answer the atio& Mr. /n 'MIME AK &aloe amid answer the question whiels k the Noble Loud couid not answer. He mold my that it was the in. !Isogon of the Chancellor Of the Exchequer to continue those ' Dude% but to make allowances for them in another way. The Petideq was Yid ott.bk, tad ordered colts peisited. Mr.lll.lBlaßBek torvniM hallo af absence hit iiirdrylt,' for Me. Joklilfs, ;Mite - reeve sbotahl have,hatia amigne4'. fee Ale request, lbw' urgeht - Privatrioutl-r • • Besides, It was not mated that Ale. 140 had torvad.oo an Meth* Committee. • ' . Mr. CALCRA FT thought that so many/Javan of this kind would be demanded, tint uniesolot,Mosse pheaskapeno *lstria: dolt upon them, great isconeadenee might tithe—(Tioir, hear). The question was thin pm, and the Ass tarried it cfalilehter). Leave of absence was afterwards given to Sir Roiraan gationsoza., on swam of the death Of a near relation, and to Mr. W. Roszats, on areient of ems. The ArFORNICY-ORNICRAL moved. that .the King's Bench Rill hetommitted On Monday.—Ordered. Mr. CURWEN obtained leave to bring hi a-Bill fee the pro tection of persons apply*. foe Patents for new inventions,. • THE QUEEN. The SPEAKER, in the order of the names upon his paper, called the name of Mr. W - iibelorce. A general cry of Order" arose, tit on. silence being obtained, it appeared that Mr. mita' 'vacs was not in his place. A pause of nearly a-quarter of au..hour followed without the appearance of the Hon. Member. 'ln the meantime the House went into a Committee upon Goldimith's Estate Bill, and the Report-was ordered to be received to-morrow. Mr. C. GRANT moved for a Return of the comparative , statement of the Giants to Ireland for Misteilamous for 1818-19, . and 1826. He ifierwards brought up the Re turn, which was ordered to be printed. A Message, from the Lords announced that their Lordships had agreed to the Mies Bill. _ _ Several Orders wldch stood for to-day were, in expectation of the debate on Mr. W.ssassaioscei motion, postponed till to. 13101 TOW. . • Shortly before six o'clock, Mr. Wltarenronez eq tered the House,' and was received with loud ae-' clamations froni every part of the House. He wits accompanied by Mr. BROUGHAM. • The BP/SAXER, in a few minutes after, called on Mr. WILBERFORCE, who immediately row, and spoke as follows Sir, I hope I need not assure the House that I have not been backward in the duty of 1111 i attendance at the . proper hour without some ade equate cause—(Hear, hear!).-1 had not, from cir r cumstancec, the power of being here earlier. _ Sim* the House separated last night, circumstance! have taken place which rendered it necessary that I should vary the form of the motion I intended. And con -sidering the serious importance of this most delkate question, and the imperative necessity that I should avail myself of the - most deliberate consideration to try any effort that might avert the fatal evil of our entering into the discussion of the unhappy dif4 ferences now prevailing, I now throw myself again upon the indulgence of the House, an 4 entreat that they will excuse me, so far as to allow another day to elapse before they call . vOll me to bring forwird motion upon this delicate ancLdistressing sabject (Cries of No," -intermixed with repeated cries el " Hear!").--I am sure, that whatever feelings May now operate in the breasts of Honourable Members, they will do me the justice to believe that I require this further indulgence from the gravest motives, and that they will afterwards hold me in contempt, if it should appear I called for it upon any temporary ' 'considerations, uninfluenced : by the most serious corr. fiction of the necessity of the postponement on ro vital an. occasion"--( Hear , ' hear,). Lord CASTLEREAGi--" I own , that I daf t regret any occasion s h ou ld h ave ar i sen to h ave dered it necessary for my Hon. Friend to solicit this poseponement, and upon motives which he Ints,nOt thought proper (no doubt for the best reasous) to eit- : plain to the House. He may have good reason for not now entering into the reasons -which influenced' his call for postponement; and certainly I feel dirs posed to accede to-his wish, as it is desirable that lrii motion ilniuld have precedence of urine. Aline, the House will see , _proceeds upon a prin c iple o f i n qui r y, and his upon one of averting, if possible the neces. isity of that inquiry —(H ear ).—I have passible, dr* fullest disposition to concede precedence to my Hon. Friend. Without presuming to question the propriety of my Hon. Friend's application, I give him credit for the gravity and purity of his motives in soliciting this delay of a Jay. I should think the House would, acting upon the principle already recognized by Par liament, also accede to it upon this occasion, under the circumstances in which my Hon. Friend stands. I should depart from that principle were I now, on the part of his Alajesty's Government, to press the House to enter upon my motion, the object of which is to decide upon the mode of iliquiry which the case itself shall call for, before it has perfectly and fully satisfied itself that every possible expedient has been carefully, anxiously, and deliberately resorted to, which could avert the necessity of such a proceeding. My Hon. Friend cannot value at a more serious rate than I do the great and heavy public evils that at tend these repeated postponements--(Loud cries of " Hear r)—which will necessarily throw so many difficulties around the whole of this painful question. until the wisdom of Parliament shall come to a defi nitive decision upon all the difficulties of so serious case. I must, in obedience to the principle recor nixed by Parliament, submit to my Hon. Friisarszo quest, and in doing so, I must be permitted to cows Jure and entreat my Hon. Friend that he will not, to. MOTtOWi suffer anything to interfere with the bring. • lug on • of his motion—(Loud (lies of Hear! from all pasts of the Hease).-..1 can only repeat, respect ing this serious and important subject, that the evils of delay are incalculable--(Hear, hear I).—lf the House can be spared the painful necessity of entering fully into this delicate and difficult duty, I shall be as glad as any Honourable Member opposite. The -House has now had a full explanation of the causes and circumstances attending the preceding delay, aad I am sure that any further delay beyond to morrow, will be more likely to defeat than to recce. tile the great - object which the House has in view." • Mr. WILBERFORCE.," I hope that it will net be required Of me by the House to state the reasons which, in my judgment,, render it desirable that thi s subject should be postponed until to-morrow. I have already explainetthat the gravest motives have die‘ tated the course I suggested, and L assure the Noble Lord, that nothing bit the sense of this imperious necessity has induced me to solicit a delay until to morrove—(Hear). Lord CASTLEREAGH," I by no means wish to press the Honourable Gentleman fer an immediate uplinittion of his motives, which, I am persuaded, are of the soundest and most sufficient nature." • Lord A.' HAMILTON, Sir, I wish to ask the Honourable Member for Bomber, whether or not he has anf ob j ection to state to the Houst.'Wtat is the • , ~ • ,netur ef t motion. which is.batintendes• to *wing terwita itionovi 7 T -4 - Cries ef No, 004,!,4 cal! Or ritmalloneirrable 'Gentlemen at Ido mot ask this Arseition out of idlie-etiriOsitf, but becausei wish to ;know t he nature of the Honertirable Gentleman's mo tion,, with a view.,to shape my.own course accord ingly, as the answer to my question may induce me to determine, if I do not approve of the Honourable Gentleman's motion, either to propose an Amendment to it, or to'submit a distinct motion to the House." Mr. WILBERFORCE.--" My high respect for L the Noble Lord's character must always induce me to afford him every gratification compatible with my duty. - I feel it to be inexpedient to say more on the subject of my motion publicly, but I shall have no objection whatever to converse with the Noble Lord in private upon it. What passed in the House yes terday evening, and its results, have confirmed me in the determination to refrain from entering into any previous explanation of the precise nature of my in tended motion." - Mr. TIERNEY.—" I really feel great difficulty. Sir, in agreeing to this postponement—(Hear, heart bear).—lt is, in every point of view, most desirable that this business should be terminated as soon as possible—Weer, bear, heer).--We are placed in a situation that appears to me to be nnparalleled. To a Message which his Majesty was graciously pleased to send down to this House many days since, wetan swered by an Address, intimating that we would im mediately enter into the consideration of the matters to which that Message referred. Accordingly, we did enter on that consideration, but in consequence of the suggestion of a number of Honourable Mem bers, the discussion was adjourned for several days, in order to give an opportunity for ascertaining whe ther it might not be practicable to bring the affair to a conclusion without further interference. The neg.- ciations on the subject lasted for nearly a fortnight; and the Noble Lord then came down, declared that they had failed, laid on the table of the House papers 'explanatory of their nature, -and gave noticesthat on this evening he would propose to resume the sus ! pended consideration of his Majesty's Message. Now, however, another—an individual Member4took up the subject, and a fresh adjournment was proposed, in order that he might see what he could do. - My Noble Friend near me, thinks it very likely that he may feel it necessary to make a motion on the subject. Other Honourable Members may also think it neces sary to make motions. In the meanwhile, the consi deration of his Majesty's Message sleeps ; and the delay is certainly neither respectful to the Crown, 'nor creditable to this House—(Hear, hear).—l think It fair, therefore, Sir, to give notice, that be the cause of the delay what it may, or let it orighate in what qtiarter . it may, I will to-morrow take the.sense of the House on the propriety of any further adjournment, if such should be proposed"—(llcnr, bear, hear). Lord A. HAMILTON.—" I also, Sir, beg leave to,give notice, that I will' to-morrow move for the production of Order in Council under which her Majesty's name was erased from the Liturgy." Mr. BROUGHAM.—" Sir, I rise to know if I -rightly understand the Honourable Gentleman who ;hes just now postponed the motion of which he yes ay evening gave notice, and to state why, if I do rightly understand him, I think that the delay which be requires of a single day ought to be allow‘H ed, notwiths!anding the great public inconvenience find evil which, in common with my Noble and my 1 1 ; Right. Honourable Friend, I feel must result from; any postponement of the question under our consi., aeration. If I rightly understand the Honourable',, Member, be considers either the adoption of his in. 'tended motion, or of any proposition which may arise out of it, the' only alternative of a proceeding to an inquiry on the part of this House. If this is really the Honourable Member's impressioq, I really think that the delay of a single day becomes of less importance, since, according to the Honourable Mem ber, if his motion should net be acquiesced in by the , House, the inquiry must then be commenced. Feel. ing, therefore, as strongly as any man the import ance of not unnecessarily delaying the consideration of this question for a single hour, I nevertheless can. not but accede to the Honourable Member's propo. sition. I trust, however, that no circumstance what ever with prevent the Honourable Member from pro: ceeding to-morrow; for I can assure the House, that as much anxiety is felt to avoid -delay on the part of her Majesty and her advisers, as can be'felt in any other quarter whatever"—(Hear, hear). Mr. SCARLETT.—" If I correctly understand my Honourable and Learned Friend, he thoroughly agrees with the Hon. Member for Bramber, that the success of that Hon. Member's motion is only one branch of an alternative, the other branch of which is the inquiry originally proposed by the Noble Lord opposite. Sir, I cannot conceive that such is the state of the case. In my humble judgment, whatever may be the fate of the Hon. Member s motion should it be rejected by the House, I shall still think the sort of inquiry. proposed by his Majesty's Ministers, and which is the only measure that they have called 'upon us to agree to,. one which it is impossible that consistently with its duty, the House can adopt— (War). In my opinion, therefore, it by no means follows, as a necessary consequence of the rejection of the Hon. Member for Bramber's motion, that we must acquiesce in the proposition of the Noble Lord." Mr. BROUGHAM.-J' As my Honourable and Learned Friend had no opportunity, or did not ay . fil himself of any opportunity of expressing his opinion in that which would perhaps have been its right place, he has been induced to state it to the Howe now, and in a manner somewhat hasty, it becomes necessary for me to set myself right with my Ho., nourable and Learned Friend, and with the House; Does it follow, Sir, from what I said when I last ad dressed you, that I think what I have already elms:, racterised as an unconstitntional'proceeding, must ixt the necessary consequence of the rejection of a mo tion, which, for aught I know, I may feel it my duty to oppose? By no means. What I stated was—pot that I considered it as the alternative ; but that as the Honourable Gentleman seemed to consider it as the alternative, and as he would therefore press his mo tion to-morrow, the delay of a single day did not ap pear to me to_be !inadvisable." Hire itbe con motion of Lord was dropped ; and,, on the -v. the Order o£ the Dal for I;imigng the adpitrued (lobate on the peg, Message was discbaneti, and I new °Oct to-morrow (this day). [The body and side Galleries of the House to: crowded doting this conversation. Immediately a, L .. it, the majority of the Membersleft the House.] SUPPLY. The Houtte.havingitsolved itself into a Committee of Supply, Mr. HUSKISSON moved a Resolution for grin'. ing the sum of £lOO,OOO to the Governors of Qut Anne's Bounty, for the Relief of the Poor Ciergv.— The Report was ordered to be 'received to-mw i:iw (this day), and the Committee had leave to !.-it ARMY EXTRAORDINA RI ES. The House having again resolved Itself into a Cor:1- , mittee of Supply, Mr. ARBUTHNOT moved, 64 That the sum £200,000 be granted for defrayiftg the extraorii expenses of the. Army for the present ye:tr." This motion led to a desultory conversation To. rpecting variqui items of expenditur; ar.d the try of keeping the Army accounts. Mr. HUMF. said, he wished to see all the exrn , brought under separate heads and see proper clic, upon them, which was not the case. at prerf:mt. !i t noticed one among other instances, of the manner of keeping the accounts: instead ot,statir :T , in a separate item,.the expenses of thelonian which cost the country 1'120,000, and which to cost us nothing; they were included ht one genciai head—," Gibraltar and the Mediterranean." Mr. ARBUTHNOT said, that if the:details of penses belonging to each separate station were before the House, they wculd produce a mass. , : printing, from which the greatest confu-ion mu-. arise. But if any Member wished to move for a ocular account, it would be laid before the• Mil.., . Lord PALMERSTON said, it would be iiii,.ossilisc to give a detail of all the :minute items of Army Ex. penses ;. but the .gross accounts were always awl. rattly given. Sir JOHN NEWPORT said, the greatest losses had taken place in consequence of delays in auditia the public accounts. Lord PALMERSTON assured the Right [fen. Baronet, that there was the,utmost regularity now eb. served in the keeping of accounts at the War Office. Mr. BARING said, he had known instances t•f accounts having been so irregularly kept in Govern. ment Offices, that there was not a shop-keeper in Cheapside who ivould not be able to se; them tight. Mr. (lOULBURN said, a great improvement had lately taken place in the keeping of the public accoz.nts. Mr. RICARDO pressed the necessity of a more satisfactory statement of the-accounts. For his part, Ihe cOnfessed his inability to understand them. Ile thought it would be prope r to , state . .the sums which had been received, and how-much was detitiell the payments of the public revenue in each-tear. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCH EQU ER agreed with the Honourable Member, that the improveiner,t was very desirable, and certainly in future should La adopted—(Hear),—The Resolution was agreed, to. The following Resolution was then proposed— " That the sum of 1.:300,0Q0 be granted for Civl Contingencies." Mr. HUME:wished to see the charges for the Po. lice. Establishment separated from this branch of the Estimates, and made an integral branch in itself.— He wished to . have an explanation upon the follow. ing circumstance :—Some time.ago the office of Receiver . the Thames Policeeoffice was given to Mr. COlquitoun, as. a reward for his s rvices, with a salary of. £4OO a-year. There was no ground for this arrangement, except the nctessity there was for recompensing this Gentleman. Now since his death he (Mr. Hume) understood that this:office -was con tinued, and that it was actually in the possession of the son of so Honourable Membei. opposite. lie wished to know if this was the case? Mr. H. CLIVE believed that he was the Member alluded to. He knew of one office being filled by a connexion of his, but the salary'was by no means so much as £4410. Mr. HUME complained that the House should be called upon to vote a sum for extraordinary expenses to the third class of Ministers at foreign Courts, without some statement being before the House of the nature of the expenditure belonging to those offices. He saw no reason why the expenses should not be defrayed out of the grants voted to the Civil List or foreign expenses. Lord C A STL ER E 4 GH explained shortly why this branch of expenditure was removed from the Civil List and placed under the head , of Civil Contingen cies. He observed that the estimates of this branch had been fixed at £50,000 a year. The sum moved. for now was 1:64,000. The increase was partly owing to some additional expenses caused by the late Per sian Embassy, which, from its peculiarity, required an unusual exercise of hospitality. Mr. HUME repeated his question as to the conti nuance of the office lately held by Mr. Colquhoun. Mr. B. BATHURST said that it was continued— but at a salary of £2OO a-year only. Mr. HUME thought that the continuance of such an office was an instance of gross inattention to eco nomy on the part of Ministers. • Mr. B. BATHURST thoUght that there was no want of economy in giving this office to the indivi dual who held it, af if one of the police-officers held it, his salary should be increased to the amount, or nearly, of the emoluments it afforded. The Resolution was agreed to, as well as the one for granting . the sum of £lOO,OOO to make certain pay ments to the poor Clergy, and usually styled Queen Anne's Bounty. The. House then resumed, and the Report was or dered to be brought up this day. • MISCELLANEOUS. Sir HENRY PARNELL obtained leave to bring in a nil for improving the Roads between London and Shrewsbury( Sir JOHN NEWPORT moved that there be laid before the House Copies of the Correspondence which had taken plate be tween the Boards of Excise and Customs in Ireland, and the Goternment in that country, relative •to the Expenses for Sta tionety.—Ordered. On the motion of Mr. ROBINSON it was ordered, that the House should, to-morrow, resolve itself into a Committee on .thts Act relative to the Tr ade to Demerara and Berbice. . Mr. ROBINSON brought up a Bill to permit the importa tion of Coffee from certain ports of South America, into the Island of Barbadoes and other places in the West Indies. Read a fust, and ordered to be read a second time to-morrow (this day). The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER brought up ptiffacon the Resoiations voted in the Committee of Ways and Means, vis.-A NW to raise a loan of twelve millions from the Ceminiestoners for liquidating the National Debt Bill to provide for ths amp of guauagkig Us public lunded Debt • s'