Star. — London, England, 1820-06-28 00:00:00

in favour of proceeding. 13at the Committee may report either that the grounds are insufficient, or that there are difficulties connected with the evidence v i ch render it' advisable not to proceed. His ar gument on the subject of impeachment is against the whole r ractice of Parliament. I have looked 'at the 1 -.4-m:dents, and I find that the proceedings by Bills of pains and penalties are, nine out of ten df them, in cases which might have .been matter for impeach-,J mem I have heard the speeches of the Counsel at the Bar, and able as they were, they did .not contain one word which applies to the present question. I a .., TN with them in thinking that the Illustrious Indi- Widiral and her Counsel ought to have time to collect the evidence, and even that they ought to have theii choice as to the time. But now there are no charges commenced. All we ask is, to refer the papers to a ,'onlnnittee, in , ot der that the Committee may deter mine whether any charge should be preferred or not. If the Committee determine we ought to proceed, then z ill be the time for her Majesty's Counsel to ask delay. The Noble Lord has alluded to the ill-credit of Se cret Committees, but I will not, while I can obtain your attention, hear without opposing, any argument grounded on clamour and discontent, .Whether with oat doors or within, for the purpose of setting aside the practice of our ancestors. He has also alluded to the Members of the Committee. They were se lected without reference to political opinions, as was proper in such a case ; aniti will ask, whether any one who has read the names, can entertain a doubt that they will act like honest and conscientious men? I wish to say one word upon what fell from a Noble Baron the other night with regard to a Right Reverend Prelate. That Right Reverend Prelate is as ignorant of the contents of the Bag as the Noble Baron him self; and as for the omission of her Majesty's name from the Liturgy, all the blame which may attach to the advice must belong to the Executive Govern ment. I have now answered must of the Noble Lord's arguments ; all I request is, that you will not be de terred by the cries of faction from doing what you conscientiously think ought to be done ; that you will refer the Papers to a Secret Committee, not to try the individual, but to determine whether any species of proceeding should take place upon them." Lord ERSKINE proceeded to address their Lord ships. Having voted, in the first instance, for going into the Secret Committee upon the present question, he wished now to state the reasons that had induced him to alter the opinian he had then entertained, not ith respect to the general principles, but the ab stract merits of the case. It was impossible for him not to consider that the subject had materially changed its character from the first time Noble Earl op posite had delivered his sentiments upon it. The Noble Lord next observed upon the difficulties of proving an adulterous intercourse in this case, so as to subject the parties to the penalty of High Trea son. Nor did he think from the arguments which he had urged, that the Queen could be proceeded against for a misdemeanour, upon the principle which was laid down by the strict letter of the law in such eases. Ile could not at any time speak of the House of Commons but with profound respect; yet he never theless felt it competent to him to canvass and dis cuss the merits of those legislative proceedings which that House either had or was disposed to Institute. —There was, indeed, a strange inconsistency in the Address voted by the House otComrnons to her Ma jesty, as it referred to the nature of &he charges of which she was represented as the subject. The terms of that Address were such as certainly made him alter his mind upon the subject of the Secret Com mittee. When Ministers had omitted her Majesty's name in the Liturgy, he naturally thought they had some very serious accusations to prefer against her, and therefore considered it only right that they should be allowed an opportunity of justifying them selves by going immediately into the evidence in the manner proposed. He had looked into the Act of Uniformity upon this question of the Liturgy, and found it expressly ordered, that the form of prayer for the King and Queen with the other members of the Royal Family, should be altered from time to time, as circumstances required. The Noble Lord now read the Address of the House of Commons to her Majesty, which he contended, did not in any re spect accord with the proposition for going into a secret Committee, as it showed that a proceed ing for an inquiry, whatever might be the result as it affected the merits of the question itself, would be derogatory to the dignity of the Crown, and injurious to the best interests of the nation. Nor could her Majesty by any means accede to the pro position contained in that Address. It could not be expected that her Majesty would consent to impeach her own innocence, if she was conscious of no criminality—(Loud cries of Hear, hear, hear). — Her Majesty's Counsel had been heard on her behalf at their Lot dships' bar, and by them she demanded an open trial. She had a right to make such a de mand; it was the privilege of the accused. He thought their Lordships were now called upon to consider whether should they proceed in the inquiry t::ey were not doing an act which must, after the de claration made by the other House, be derogatory to the dignity of the Crown and prejudicial to the wel fare of the People. His decided opinion was, that such would be the case. The Queen consented to give up nothing—she demanded a trial—she com plained that her character was defamed, and her ho nour insulted. Well ! what was done? Why, after , this unaccountable delay, the House of Comrpons pronounced a sort of verdict of acquittal, and yet their Lordships were still determined to bring her Majesty to trial. if the House, after having first re stored her Majesty's name in the Liturgy, and placed her in that situation which was suited to her,esalted dignity, should then think it necessary to institute any Legislative proceeding against her, he should not, if consistent with his duty, object to lend his humble assistance ; but he would not now get himself the invidious and disreputable situation of a p-oneer to the Ministers. The Noble Lord concluded by voting in support of the motion. The LORD CHANCELLOR said, he had been prevented, from the pressure of important business, from giving that attention to this moss important subject, which his anxiety desired, yet he had still considered it sufficiently to enable him to combat, he should hope, to the satisfaction of the House, the ar guments advanced by his Noble and Learned Friend who had just sat down. The Noble and Learned Lord then entered into a detailed examination 'oldie :ACC .01 Edward 114 as it referred to the question before their Lordships, and contended, that as the charge-of High Treason Must be abandoned, the only 1 proper course to be pursued, was the one which Mi nisters had determined to follow, namely, a motion for a-Secret Committee. He wished he had a voice ! which could enable him to be heard from one end Of the country to the other, nay to the very extremities of it, while he solemnly declared to the People that it was a most abominable and unjust reproach tb his ' Majesty's Ministers to suppose that this question was ever meant to be disposed of by a Secret Commitfee, hi the offensive sense of these words. He should never disguise his own feelings on this distressing subject ; and he should tell his Noble and Learned Friend (Lord Erskine) tied there was no punishment, however severe, which he could bring him to, that he ought not to get inflicted upon him, if he were capable, for one moment, of losing sight of the grand principle of equal justice, by which, through life, his conduct had been actuated—( Hear hear).— It was not because h e did not a p prove o f in troducing a Bill on this subject, that therefore he should shrink from any responsibility with respect to it. But this was not a mere question about the responsibility of Ministers, no, it was infinitely one of more import ance, it was one which concerned the dearest inte rests of the King and Queen, and therefore the dear .est interests of the people. It was a question, corn. pared with which the responsibility of Ministers was AS nothing. He stood then as a Peer of Parliament, and should always speak as such. He did not deny that he had a knowledge of the nature of the papers which the bag contained, but their Lordships would see that it would be extremely improper in him to disclose that knowledge, in the capacity in which he stood. The Noble and Learned Lord, in the course of some other remarks, vindicated the measure of a Secret Committee, and in allusion to the proceedings about the time of the French Revo lution, observed, that a Noble and Learned Lord (Erskine) who was so generally esteemed in the country, might not have now been alive, had it mit been for the vigilance of Secret Committees ? His head might have been off in the course of a week ; but then he had heard it"said, that her Majesty did not choose that a Secret Committee should be the form in which the inquiry was to be gone into. Hi had, however, a public duty to perform, and should tell her, as he should tell any other Queen, that she must be better defended than she could be by the mere responsibility of Ministers. His great anxiety was to justify himself with respect to this question ;- and he had wished, in the language of that dis tinguished and upright Judge, Mr. Justice Cham berlin, " to make a covenant with GOD, that neither affection, nor any other undue notion, should in fluence his conduct." If he was wrong, he,hoped GOD would pardon him. The Marquis of LANSDOWN said, he was bound to consider whether the species of inquiry now pro- posed was consistent with the functions of that House, or compatible with its interests. The Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolsack, and the Noble Earl opposite, had done that which no individual had a right to do—they bad presumed to determine about the way in which the House should deal with the question that was to be brought before them— (Hear, hear).---The Noble Earl, early and laborious as his life was devoted to acquiring that fund of con stitutional knowledge which he was so well known to possess, had altered his opinion in some respect upon matters relating to the usage of Parliament : and was it not possible that some persons in the House of Commons might have done the same, as it regarded this question ? But the Noble Earl was too candid not to admit, though he had not stated the fact, that the Bag contained Papers relating w other matters and crimes, besides that specific crime (which respect for the Illustrious Person im plicated would prevent him, Lord Lansdown, from naming). He would not be . so irregular as to allude to language held in another place, although• he be lieved that the phrases which had been quoted, were employed more than once in that place. But he would allude to the votes of the House, to which be was entitled, and, in the present circumstances, bound to look. What did he there find ? Did he find that the communication which had been made from the Crown was dismissed ? Quite the contrary. He found not only that that communication was still before the House, but that a proposition to defer the consideration of it for six months had been rejected. Was he not thence to infer, that it was the declared opinion of the House of Commons that the commu nication in. question ought to be considered ? The Noble and Learned Lord would recollect, that there had already been one ex- rte inquiry in this case ;it -was notorious that her Majesty had already been sub jected to the extra-judicial inquiries of a Commission, which had been sent out from this country with the knowledge and by the advice of his Majesty's Minis ters, if not by the sanction of the Noble and Learned Lord. He was not prepared to contend that that Com mission was unnecessary ; he was ignorant how far it had been properly or improperly constituted ; but of this he was sure, that the Illustrious Person for whose benefit the whole proceedings of Parliament were pre sumed to be conducted, was entitled at least to say, " Let me have no more Secret Commissions—let me have no more exiarte inquiries"—(Hear, hear). — The Noble and Learned Lord had said, that he was sometimes bound, in his judicial capacity, to inter pose on the part of the accused party, whether the ac cused party consented to such interposition or cwt; but the Noble and Learned Lord seemed to forget that his observation could apply only to what was al ready settled and established by law, to what was solemnly pronounced by the laws of the country to be a shield of protection to the accused. Let the Noble and Learned Lord chew him where were the orders of this House, where the regulaticins and re cords—and GoD forbid that this House should be without records for the purpose of protecting inno cence—where were the rules defined and laid down which made it necessary to institute a Secret Com mittee, before the introduction of a Bill of Pains, and Penalties ?_(Loud Piet 4f Hear, hear. hear).-... If such a proceeding were intended for the benefit' of her Majesty, she should at least be permitted to bake her election ; and he would venture to pro nounce that ber Majesty Would disclaim the benefit. which was profibeed by this House. As long at there existed a hive of averting the public eyes from this inqoiry altogether, and =O4 divEloati +so painful to the Illustrious 'age eisiteern all delay was commendable and ntcessary; but from the moment that a solemn accusation had been made, 'should be considered' as that of Ministers alone.. all subseque n t d e l a y in•bringing it to a positive de-' He had now, for abo ut forty years, had the honour termination was a t t e n d e d w i t h t h e e ffe c t o f untie.; of a seat in that House, during which he had fe cessarily agitating the public mind, and prejudicinglquently been a Member of S ecret C omm i ttee i upon the case of the Illustrious Personage' who was ac- . the subject of Finance, and of the Bank for instance, cured. The Secret. Committee woala, in fact; in- and he was willing to confide in the conduct of the terpose an additional delay, and when that Commit- Ministers who sat in that House, from what he had tee shall have sat and melte its Report, the House witnessed upon such occasions ; for although these would not have advanced - a s i ng l e s t e p. He w ould Ministers had often expressed very strong opinibm in put it to the candour of the Noble Earl opposite, the House in opposition 'to his own, upon qmstions and to the common sense of their Lordships, whether referred to these Committees, he had al way found any advantage could be expected from the investi- them in such Committees ready to give every due gations of a Secret Committee,' when his Majesty's consideration to any point brought forward. Lou k- Ministers, who had had every opportunity of weighing ing, then, to experience, he calculated upon similar the evidence, and considering all the circumstances coolness and impartiality of investigation upon the of the case, were unable, after a years consideratfon, present occcasion ; he should vote in favour of the to agree whether they should come forward as proposition for the •itting of the Committee in which public accusers or not ? Some of them had described he was appointed, and he should certainly attend, be themselves as public accusers, and others had as dis- cause he was determined to do his duty. tinctly declared they would never act in thatcapacity. Lords LANSDOWN and LA UDER DA LE explair ed. As far as he was individually concerned, If by at- Lord 43ELHAVEN was anxious to state, that al tending that Committee he thought he could contri- though he should vote for the motion of the Noble bute in the remotest degree either to close these pain- Lori, he was not against inquiry, which he only de ful proceedings, or to facilitate any measure which sired to see established on broad principles of British might lead to an amicable arrangement, without Justice. In the present case, the accused Individual that publicity which every man must be so anxious had reason to object to a secret inquiry. She knew to avoid, there was no concession, no sacrifice, which that it was founded on the Report of a certain Secret he would not cheerfully make to accomplish so de- Commission, which had been appointed to sit on the subject, and which she was aware she had reason to sirable an object. He con f esse d th at h e enterta i ne d a faint hope that such would be the case, until cir- dread. She knew no more of the details of this Com cumstances occurred in the other House of P ar li a - mission Report, than ,she knew o f t h e reason f or ce ment which rendered such a result extremely impro- moving her name from the Liturgy—(hear.) bible. If this proceeding unfortunately did go on, Lord BULKELEY, from a reverence for those he should endeavour to discharge his individual duty pnnciplits of British jurisprudence which he had ever as strictly and as consci ent i ous ly as h e truste d eve been tau it to hold sacred, felt i t hi s d uty to vote ever. one of their Lordships wculd do; and he prayed to for the motion. He could never, indeed, allow him• Goo that the proceedings of that House might be self to assent to the violation of those principles, whatever might be the rank of the p ar ty accuse d ; conducted with that atte n tio n t o f ormer p rece d ents , and, therefore, he ihoUld be equally t e n ac i ous i n t hi s and that apprehension as to f u t ure consequences , which might not only secure the strictest justice to inktance, whether the accused' were merely Mrs. the Illustrious Individu a l accuse d, b u t mi g h t contr i- Brunswick, or the Queen of England—(H ear , h ear ). bate to raise their character individually and collet- The Noble Lord declared, that he differed with pain tively in the estimation of the Publi - c. from those Noble Lords with whom - he generally The LORD CHANCELLOR observed, in expla- agreed ; but he was urged by a strong sense of duty nation, that in the year 1703, her Majesty Queen to say, as he could not hesitate to do were it even his Anne, sent down a Message to that House, and to last word, that he deprecated the course which they the House of Commons, s t a ti ng , t h at certain Papers proposed to' pursue upon the prese n t occasions— had been communicated to her, relative to a conspi- (Hear, hear, hear). • racy in Scotland in favour of the St uar t Family, and Lord HOLLAND said, he had from the outset that this House had examined the Papers with the disapproved of the course which Ministers had taker, view of determining whether they should act upon from a conviction of the irregularity and ineons . them in their legislative capacity. In the year472o, nience of their proceedings; and of that irregularity a Bill of Pains and Penalties 'against the South Sea and inconvenience many of the Ministers themselves Directors had originated in that House. It was ex- had since become fully sensible. Nay, two of the tremely important to make a distinction between the Noble Lords who were appointed on the Secret Corn judicial and the legislative capacities of the House mittee, had this night stated their intention not to of Lords ; and it was frequently a point of great dif- attend that Committee, from an impression of its ir ficulty to determine whether that House or the other regularity. The reasons stated by those Noble Lords House of Parliament should proceed legislatively. were no doubt different, but their Resolution was Lord DONOUGIIMORE said, it was with great quite the same: Those Noble Lords, whom he was regret, that he differed from his Noble Friends upon proud to call his friends, had, throughout life, ren- • this occasion, but he thought no reasonable man derecl such services to the cause of justice and 'liberty, could object to the conduct of his Majesty's Ministers that no one was more ready to acknowledge those *rr upori this occasion. They had not lost a moment in vices than himself, and especially with respect - to iris bringing the subject before the consideration of Par- Noble and Learned Friend behind him (Lord Erskine). liamtmt, and the House had lost no time in taking up He therefore regretted to differ from his Noble and -' the Royal - charge, and appointing a Secret Commit- Lear . ned Friend upon this subject on a fo r mer oeca tee for its investigation . He thought it right to pay Sion . tie Since that occasion, however, his -Noble and a decent respect to the persons who had brought for- Learned Friend had this night observed, that the case ward the accusation : he had voted foradjournment under consideration war materially altered, an'tl tkere fore his opinion had undergone a change. The 6* after adjournment, and if a fu r the r a dj ournment h a d been proposed by his Majesty's Ministers, he should had, indeed, been altered, as appeared from proceed- . gs elsewhere. Ire would not •ref e r to t h e conduct- , ail' have voted for it. It had been said that his Ma- in .jesty's Ministers were weak men ; that they had not of the other House of Parliament, to - which two Noble Lords on the other side had obser v ed i t wou ld' sufficient confidence in themselves ; a n d th at t h e y h a d taken counsel of both Houses of Parliament. Now, in be irregular to advert, although each of those Noble , his opinion, this was not a fair ground of accusation, Lords were themselves betrayed into irregularity. and he thought it would be much better for the coup- But he would refer to that . which was matter of try if they would oftener take the advice df Parliament. public notoriety, namely, the negociation'which had Not a single argument had been employed with a view taken plate between two of the King's Ministers and of influencing the proceedi of this Hous , err - the legal advisers of the Queen. Their Lo'--'-' • .4 pr, mgs Ise, except what was fotinded upon the pmceedings and speeches of the other House of Parliament. He deprecated the idea of this House being bound by the proceed ings of any other Assembly, and he thought all the difficulties and embarrassments with which the pre , sent question was involved, were attributable to a want of attention on the part of the Members of the other House. He would put the case of a person, who had once distinguished himself as an Advocate for another, and who had shewn great dexterity in her cause, being suddenly seized with some strange wandering, some snacc,Juntible forgetfulness, and being induced to make a glowing speech against the individual, for whom he had once exerted all his elo quence.• The Right Honourable Gentleman to whom he alluded had blended much of panegyric in that speech ; he had talked of scenes, " Quiequa fine. dakiaima Adi s " Re quorum pars magna tai."—(4 inaga). Yet was it possible to conceive a course more directly calculated to ruin, a cause which he had once advo- cated? He could not consider the examinations of the Secret Committee as a- trial, or even as the com mencement of a trial, but merely as a preliminary proceeding for the purpose of determining whether any trial houlds trite place at all. Lad LAUDERDALE stated his regret at finding himself that night in a situation Of 'differing with many of his friends. He wished (and GOD forbid any one should entertain a contrary sentiment!) that no injustice should be done to the accused party in this case; but he wished to see justice done to ano ther person--the person who had br oug ht into that House the case at present before the truant the Head of the Government of this country, who con sidered himself aggrieved ix the manner which had been hinted to them. He. certainly bad never con ceived', before the law - on this subject had been saa ably propounded to them by the Noble Lord on the Woolsack, that the Sovereign had no other resource, in such a situation, than to apply to Parliament. But if Parrsament were to Osm- - & - upon the merits of the case, all the kiewledvi he possessed of the s. • stitutioa of this country taught.hins to believe that blinistera.could not takewpouthemselTes the'respess ! . sibility of briaging in a Bill, withal's; prev tons blot motion being laid on the table of theHouss-t-(Hear, Assirt)—Under another view of the ease, the Queen's having sent a Petition tothat Houle, he shouldlike 0 know, giving all due credit for, the *esti; of the Legal Advisers of her idajosty, how they could pas+ sibly advise her to ask• for tame to collect evideiteol for the refutation-of obatgettil which, the prgiesed' i ',to know nothing !-liffeatr,- hitri.l)--"He 11.0wa Litn derdale) saw no reason - why thit Secret Committee Lordships were aware of the protocols that were published, and here he would ask quid est protocol, Cr was thereon word in the English,language to answer the purpose without importing this expression ? The subject of . those protocols had, however, materially altered this case, as well as certain Resolutions, which were also matter of notoriety, and in the adoption of which several of the Ministers themselves lad concurred. From these negotiations and resolutions, then, it was evident that this question bad been changed since its former discussion ill that House, and principally tee through the conduct of Ministers themselves. But his Noble Friend (Lord Lauderdale) and he was sur prised to witness it, avowedly confined his confidence to those Ministers who were Members of that House s Upon their conduct it seemed his Noble Friend was disposed fully to rely in the proceedings meant to be investigated by the Secret Committee, from which the motion proposed to relieve the House. His No- v ble Friend has, also become an advocate, in a great degree, for the institution of Secret Committees, but without, in his (Lord Holland's) opinion, stating the • grounds of that advocacy very fairly. Anit this system of Secret Committees, however, he (UM . land) could not hesitate to enter his protest,, for al-; though he had not long lived in.this world, it was his mortifying fate to see the - liberties of his eonntry more than once subverted by the system 'df &mt . Committees, preceded by acctifsed Greta L j He had, indeed, in one instance, seed the Cobstitutiou suspended through such a• proceeding, witliib dm: space of 24thours, and when bfilfseven Members' of that House wese present:to.deliberate upon sire thra.~ sae., It had been Mid; that Bills of Paliis and re. nakies Might originate Kettat Roue ; liut this doe: trine he utterly &died; challenging itiadvocptes to produce any precedent iti, its Swett. He, indeed. 'was decidedly of opinion, *at such measures 'should r ather originate in the Other' House of Parliament,. ai they had usually or liniformly done. It could not: be pteteuded, thff 'slice 'the 'RevOlutiint aisle case had . Occurred There wa‘,•lM some ‘anahigy, ludianus to alludebe rendon, who was great conspiracy. at learned man the country for'sake however, wes theie any negociation Lord Oa did hot like the ht deference to to leave it, and -red at all ana i ogous to the prelent.— doubt, a ciatitt4.6 record, which' as • but viiritiai• 1r must seem uttn.wbut lude-Lbeitteittit the case of ', fi ord Cis- was Wl' ie 'hwie been imptilatid io * CT. (lion this stateMent or . klopicitt% - nan was specianr requesW to raatie . sake of public tranqitillity.. No inueo. offered to the 'Noble 144 , 4ot...was cation or protocol respeowet m. ..., )32 , as it m ight naturaliy Le proposi tion to abitt49oliiii.ecplottr. o authority; however, be 4 within three :days after Nr-depa c ~ .. ' .. . . 1.