Star. — London, England, 1830-03-31 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS-TUESDAY. The Earl of KLNNOt'L presented a petition from a corporate body at Perth, against the renewal of the East India Company's charter. The Earl of ROSERERY presented a similar petition from the Provoq and Town Council of Perth.--Referred to the Select Com • i.tttee. The Duke of DEVONSHIRE ptesented a petition from the inha bitants of Derby, against the punishment of death for forgery. The t. , :hle duke also presented petitions for throwing open the trade to India and China. from the inhabitants of Derby. of Milford, Nor •ranton. florowash, Dliffield, Mickleover, Belpor, and nine other parii.hes in Derbyshire. The Earl of MORLEY presented a petition from the city of Exeter, against the piii.isliment of death for forgery. The Earl of RADNOR presented a similar petition from Far r:i.gdon. The noble earl also presented a petition from the owners snit occupiers of lend at Woodchurcb, in Kent, complaining of dia. trees. and praying relief. The Ear' of ROSSLYN presented a petition from the Corpora t'or, of Stirling, against the renewal of the East India Company's :letter. Several private Bills were read a third time—among which was lltiskett's Divorce Bill. The Marquis of CLANRICARDE presented a petition from prNons professing the Jewish religion, in the eastern division of the r:ietropolis. praying the removal of civil disabilities on account of their religions opinions. TWOPENNY POST. The Noble MARQUIS also presented a petition from a person raiding in the Edgeware-road, praying that the Twopenny Post might be extended to that district and places adjacent. Earl STANHOPE presented a petition from the freeholders of Bedfordshire, complaining of distress, and praying relief. The pe titioners likewise prayed for the abolition of the malt duty. RECIPROCITY TREATY WITU AUSTRIA. The Earl of ABERDEEN laid on the table, by command of his Majesty, the reciprocity treaty between this country and Austria. , Earl STANHOPE denied that the treaties usually called reci procity treaties were, in fact, treaties of that description, for the ad. vantages were in favour of vigil nations, and not reciprocal. The distress of the shipping interest proved that the system was injurious to this country. With respect to the freights which now were ob tained by British merchanunen, it was obvious that they were by no means sufficient to pay the ship-owner. The Earl of ABERDEEN did not deny that the shipping inte rest laboured under difficulties, but he did deny that these treaties had an effect such as that imputed by the noble earl. In the last three years, the employment of British shipping had greatly in. creased, compared with that of foreigners trading to this country in any former period. He would not trouble the house with reading the return upon the table, from whence this fact was evident. More than 400 British ships la st year passed the Sound, compared with the number of former years. What better test could there be of the increase of commerce than the increased employment of British shipping ? The profits certainly might not be so great as at former periods; this he was ready to admit. With respect to the particular treaty which he had the honour of laying before their lordships' table, he begged to observe, that it was similar in terms to those which had been already laid before the house. It also was limited in its operation to the period when the other treaties expired. Par liament would then have the whole subject before it. The legis. lature, having thus had an opportunity of judging of the effects of those treaties when they were about to expire, might exercise its power as to the renewal or modification of them. As to the treaty in question, he found it in progress when he succeeded to the office which he had now the honour of holding, and he felt it his duty to complete it. Viscount GODERICH commenced with observing that at the close of the last Session of Parliament he had moved for returns connected with the details on that very important subject—the ship r.ng interest of this country. He had the satisfaction of ending, from the production of those accounts, that his own views were com pletely borne out by the facts. These details tended to overthrow all the objections, as to the probable effects of the treaties, which many persons entertained. He found that there had been an in crease, of no inconsiderable description, of British shipping em ployed all over the world, with the exception of vessels trading to Norway. It was supposed that the commercial treaty with Prussia would prove disadvantageous to England. But what was the con. sequence? The increase of shipping employed was in favour of England, and not Prussia. The noble earl (Earl Stanhope), and others who thought with him, had got hold of one great error on this subject. He and they seemed to be of opinion that the reciprocity treaties resulted from some speculative scheme—whereas, in fact, there was an absolute necessity for their formation. Foreigners had imposed high duties on goods imported into their countries in Eng. lish ships, and it was therefore necessary for this country to enter iota such an arrangement as these treaties point out. - If this ar rangement had not taken place, the state of the shipping interest would have been much worse than it now was. If the number of British ships entering into any foreign port were compared with the vessels of other nations, excepting the ships of the country,to which the British ships sailed, it would be found that the latter exceeded all the rest put together. Let their Lordships, for instance, take the United States of America, and it would be seen that the British ship ping trading there, with the exception of the ships belonging to the United States, exceeded in number all the ships of the whole world. He would maintain that the shipping interest of England was not going to rack and ruin, as many persons believed, but on the con trary ; and that the reciprocity treaties were best calculated to secure those interests. Lewd ELLENBOROUGII said he was not aware that the sub. ject would have been advanced to-day, otherwise he would have made himself acquainted more accurately with the returns on the table ; but, if he recollected right, he thought there had been an in crease in the number of British Seamen and the tonnage of British ships within the last ten years, which nearly equalled the number of foreign seamen and tonnage of foreign ships trading to this country from all parts of the world during the same period. When first these treaties were introduced, he was very much of the opinion of the noble earl opposite (Karl Stanhope)—(hear, hear,) but now he (Lord Ellenborough) was disposed to view that opinion as erroneous. Earl STANHOPE said that the explanation given by the noble lords did not touch one of the points of his objections to the tees.' ties—via. the low or unprofitable rate at which the freights were now undertaken. lie did not deny that ships were employed, but he dc. Died that they were so engaged with advantage to the owner. It might as well be insisted that there was no distress among the agri culturists because farms were occupied; and it might be said that the landlord suffered no loss. Land was still let, but the tenants, in many instances, cultivated it at a certain loss. With respect to the shipping interest of England, it was impossible it could be sup ported he adhering to the present system ; foreign ships could be built, manned, and navigated, at one-half the expense required to build and navigate English vessels. Since the alteration of the navigation laws, British shipping was kept up at a certain loss to the owners. The discussion then ended. Mr. Rica TaEvoi, the Marquis of QUEUE'S and other mem bers of the commons, brought up two private bills . Mr. Fry, from the Navy Office, presented at the bat an account of all contracts foe timber for the use of his majesty's dock-yards since the Ist of January, 1810. On the motion of the Earl of DARNLEY, the mount was or. tiered to be printed. The Marquis of BU TE presented a petition froufßanbury against the punishment of death for forgery. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE presented a similar "petition from the Unitarian Congregation of South-place, Finsbury-square. INSTRUCTIONS TO CONSULS. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said, in rising to move that an humble address be presented to his majesty, that his majesty will be pleased to give instructions to his conk& in South America to furnish returns of the gold and silver sent front that country, he did not apprehend it would be necessary to trouble their lordships with many observations understanding there would be no objection to the motion. In bringing forward the subject be was not desirous of pledging any individual in that house as to any future course which might be pursued connected with the motion. When the returns which he should have the honour of moving should be before their lordships relating to the precious metals—and as the country had the happiness to enjoy a metallic currency, which he hoped would never be departed from, it being the only sound state of currency— they might prove beneficial to the house sod the country, for it was important to have accurate in.farmation with respect to the sup ply of those melons metals, to see whether there was any change or fulling off in the amount of that supply. Without pretending to be accurately informed on that subject (and he would venture to say no man could at the present moment be thoroughly acquainted with it in all its details) the circumstance of the revolutions-- the dismemberment 0 the States the change of Government which had prevailed in (latent parts of South America in the course of the last twenty y throb had bad a considerable ef. feet in preventing that sup Ply 0 the precious ;petals which hero. tofore had been distributtli be different paw of the glebe, and which had formed so cossidibeable a portion of the wealth of that country: Indepe of the removal of those circumstances to which be had just mad. which had laid tediminish • the supply of the were MIME OPPINCtiIa with the improvement Errol used d mdikey MA* les faullarly fitted to increase that y. li e 1111fald not ties eater ea the question as to the eotn ve value 0 glik nod envo i air ea lie i t se question relating to the ae dhuiliWts ot tie eneetoold supply of either of thesii i metals ; these wen subjecilli for future o . There worn anther circumstance laid' forced itself upon the mind ; — the increased demand for the precious metals which the increa sed population of Europe and the rapidly growing population of the United States of Ameviea required. Besides these, there was another minor consideration connected with the question, but not to any matetial extent, when it should come be. fore the house on a future occasion ; viz. the circumstance that a new supply of one of the precious metals had been recently dia. covered in the Russian dominions ; he alluded to the gold mine in Ural Mountains. The object which the noble marquis said, in conclusion, he had in view, was to obtain information as to the general supply of these precious metals. He then moved an ad dress to his majesty for a return of the examination which took place before the Privy Council in 1828, at which certain bank di rectors were examined ; also that his majesty will be graciously Rimed to direct that his consuls residing in the different States of :south America transmit such information as they can collect with respect to obtaining and exporting precious metals, and the compa rative proportion of gold and silver exported in each years also that the British Consul at Petersburgh be directed to transmit any information he may obtain with regard to the quantity of gold obtained in the Russian dominions in the course of the last ten years. The Duke of WELLINGTON suggested that, so far as the motion related to the proceedings before the privy council, probably extracts on that particular subject would be sufficient. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE then limited that part of the motion to extracts. Mr. FYLER presented a petition from the Mayor, merchants, 1 bankers, and other inhabitants, to the numberof 650 persons, of the city of Coventry, praying for a revision of the criminal laws, and for doing away with the punishment of death for dances against property.—Ordered to be printed. Thesame hon. MEMBER presented a petition from the licensed victuallers of Coventry (200 in number), complaining of the great injury they will sustain in their property by the trade being thrown open in beer—Referred to the committee. Lord FRANCIS OSBORNE presented a petition from Wis. beach (we believe) complaining of distress, and praying a reform in parliament —Ordered to be printed. Mr. LEGGE presented apetition from Banbury, praying a nevi. shin of the criminal laws.—Ordered to be printed. Mr. 51UNDY presented a similar petition from the inhabitants of Derby.—Ordered to be printed. Mr. MALCOLM presented a petition from the brewers and malt. stets of Boston, in Lincolnshire, against throwing open the trade in heer.—Ordered to be printed. General GASCOYNE presented nine petitions from as many iVesleyan Methodist congregations at Liverpool, against the prac tice of burning Hindoo widows.—Referred to the committee on East India affairs. Mr. ARCHIBALD CAMPBELL presented a similar petition from Gorwood, in Scotland. Mr. LITTLETON, in presenting a petition from the inhabitants of Sibthorpe, in the county of Durham, against the truck system, wished to know from the hon. member for Aberdeen whether he would object to defer the discussion on the bill which he (Mr. Lit.. tleton) intended to introduce on Thursday night, upon the subject, until its second reading, as in the interval the bill would be printed, and members have the opportunity of considering its contents during the holidays. Mr. HUME said, that although he intended to oppose the bill in its very first stage, as the proposed delay might afford time for fur. ther information, he should not object to the discussion on the bill being deferred to the second reading. After a few words from Mr. REMALY, Mr. BEWETT, and Mr. Hume, the petition was brought up and ordered to be printed. Mr. HUME presented a petition from the inhabitants of North Dibley, in Gloucestershire, complaining of general distress and the increase in the poor.rates.—Ordered to be printed. Mr. BENETT presented a petition from the Licensed Victuallers of Trowbridge, relative to beer duties.—Referied to the Committee on Beer Licenses. The Earl of ABERDEEN said there could be no objection to furnish the information which the noble marquis sought : indeed, hilmajesty's ministers had sent instructions to the Consuls in South America not dissimilar to what the noble marquis had now sug gested. Information of the nature desired might have been at the present moment afforded, but, in order to render the returns as per fect as possible, it would be better to delay the presentation of the information in the possession of ministers until that deficiency were supplied. It might afford some satisfaction, however, to the noble marquis to know that of late a considerable increase in the export of precious metals had taken place. Lord ELLENBOROUGH thought that the information asked for by the noble marquis, did not go fax enough ; the returns would not furnish him with so clear a detail as was desirable. The noble lord suggested that the exports of the precious metals to India should be given, if not to other countries in Europe. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE had no objection to adopt the suggestion with regard to India; but doubted whether any clearer information could be obtained by specifying the countries of Europe to which the precious metals were exported, inasmuch as there was a constant flux and reflux between them.—(Hear.) The Earl of MALMESBURY was anxious to take that oppor. tunity of repeating what he had said afew sessions ago with respect to consular establishments. His noble friend, who had introduced the motion to the house, anticipated deriving some valuable infor mation from the statements of our consuls. They ought to furnish very valuable information, for they cost the country a very large sum of money annually (Hear.) The amount of the expense in. curred in 1828, on this head, was no less than 97,0001. When he had the honour of holding an office under government, which his noble friend held, the mode adopted was to pay the consuls by fees. There was, however, a small %glary attached to each in addition. They carried on the correspondence of their department, and trans. acted the usual business of consuls. It happened that some abuses had crept in with respect to the fees, and it war considered better to have the fees abolished, paying the expenses of the consuls out of the public purse. When so much had been asserted about economy, he thought that a considerable saving might be effected in the con sular establishments. A few years ago the expense was 70,0001. and now it was upwards of 90,0001. If there was an establishment of a custom-house to be kept up, connected with the consular esta blishment, then there would be something to defray these expenses; but if the object were to benefit the mercantile interest, that interest ought to bear part of the expense. He begged to ask why the public purse should be thus burdened ? It was too much to saddle the country with so large on increascbecause abuses in fees had obtained an ascendancy. Three years back he mentioned the expense to which the country bad been, in his opinion, unnecessarily put with regard to the consular establishment, and he had hoped that his Majesty's ministers would have taken th e subject into consideration with a view of diminishing the expenditure. The consuls ought to be well acquainted with met. cantile transactions; indeed they were generally so. Now he was on his legs, he thought he might be permitted to advert to the qua. lineations of the South American consuls, as compared with those in the European states. In South America, the consul had chiefly the diplomatic relations to manage, besides the commercial ; but diplo nosey was of a very different character in that country to what was pursued in the courts of Europe; the qualifications, consequently, were of a different nature to fit a person for each. It would hardly be insisted, he imagined, that in a diplomatic relation it was the same at Lima, Mexico, and other places in South America, as it was at Vienna, Petersburgh, or other European courts ? The noble earl said he certainly should prefer the diplomatic relations to be carried on through the medium of the consuls of the South Ameri can states. He thought it really worth the consideration of govern ment whether the system of fees could not be conveniently returned , to; and he would also recommend that, in such a case, the mercan tile interest should have some degree of influence in the appointment of consuls. Mr. F. LEWIS brought in a bill for amending and consolidating the laws regulating the pay of the royal navy. The Bill was read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time on Monday, Nth of April, and to be printed. Mr. F. LEWIS was about to move for returns of the expenses of conveying money for the payment of the navy, to Chatham, Ports mouth, and Plymouth Dock-yards, when Mr. HUME suggested an alteration in the terms of the motion, and it was withdrawn for the present. Mr. F. LEWIS moved for a return of the amount of duty re. ceived on playing cards for the last three years.—Ordered. Mr. F. LEWIS moved for a return of the quantity of British wool exported from the United Kingdom ; and also of the imports of foreign wool:during the last six year&—Ordered. Mr. BARING moved for a return of the quantity of merchan dise exported, on which drawbacks had been allowed ; and also the quantity of sugar on which drawbacks had also been a ll owed.— Ordered. Mr. C. GRANT wished to know on what day it was the inten. tendon of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to propose the annual sugar duties; for, as it was his (Mr. C. Grant's) intention to move for a reduction of such duties, he thought that would be the most convenient time to propose it, in older to bring the question fully and fairly before the house. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER promised to name an early day after the Easter holydays. Sir JOHN NEWPORT presented a petition from the inhabitants of certain districts in Dublin, for a repeal of the duty on coals.— Ordered to lie on the table. Mr. HUME postponed his motion respecting the colony of Sierra Leone, to Thursday, the 27th of May. On the motion of Sir C. WETHERELL, a return of the un heard causes at present before the Lord Chancellor was ordered to be laid before the house. Sir E. 'MATCH BULL presented a petition from the owners and occupiers of land in the parish of Woodhunt, in the county of Rent, complaining of agricultural distress, which was ordered to lie on the table. CROWN LANDS. Mr. D. W. HARVEY rose, In consequence of his pledge to the house at the close of the last session, to bring under the - consideration of parliament that branch of the public revenue commonly called crown lands. lie would not waste the time of the house in regretting that the subject bad not devolved upon some honourable member more capable than he was of surrounding it with the beauties of classical research, and all the charms of language ; but as one of those who had neither great family nor party connection to support him, he would endea vour to bring under their notice a large branch of the public revenue, which had hitherto been much neglected and misapplied. What. ever disadvantage the subject might labour under, it had at least the advantage of novelty, for, with one solitary ex ption, in 170, ' it had never been brought distinctly under the consideration of the house. He was the more emboldened to enter on the task which he had proposed for himself, as he thought he could trace in his ma• jesty's government a glimmering anxiety, if not to accelerate, at least, not to oppose improvement. He was also encouraged by the speech of the hon. member for Liverpool, in which the crown lands were pointed out as one of the sources from which financial relief might be obtained. To avoid the prevailing taste for making long speeches, and to prevent the noble lord (Lowther) at the head of the depart ment from complaining of the itinerant nature of his suggestion, he would state at once that his object was to move for the appoint ment of a committee to inquire into the state and management of the crown lands. It was not too much to say that the greatest ig. manor prevailed, even in that house, with respect to tho question he was now about to bring under their consideration. That igno. ranee hecouldonly ascribe to the stupid awe with which vulgar minds were impressed by the epithet of crown lands. The fact, however, was, that there was no branch of the public revenue so available at the present moment to the public exigencies as this might be made. It was possible that be might address in that house some one who was the enviable possessor of property so situated, and willed to him by some testator as little aware of its real value. Would such a one allow him to state the extent and the value of a property he had so acquired ? Proceeding from imagination to reality, would the house permit him to state that they were in the situation of trustees for the people of England for that great property, which, with just management, they might render available to the future exigencies of the state. (Hear, hear.) No one could be ignorant that there was once a paled when ever/ monarch derived his income exclusively from the soil. (Hear. When the ulegi. timate child of the Norman shore expel ed the legitimate Harold, his revenues amounted to 400,0001. a year. Out of that sum he provided for the protection and government of this country. During the 12th, 18th, and 14th centuries the revenue possessed by William dwindled down through successive monarchs, until they were obliged to have recourse to acts of resumption for the restora tion of the mown property. In the reign of Henry V. they bad dwindled down to 57,0001. and in that of Henry VI. so low es 5,0511. Various acts of resumption were passed in the reign of Henry VII. and in that of Henry VIII. the great pluralist both In churches and in wives, an appropriation of ecclesiastical property was made to secular purposes to the amount of 237,0001. a year, bring (accord ift to the estimate of Sir John Sinclair, who was no exagge rator in thme matters) equal to 6,000,0001. of our present currency. What he had stated of the value of the crown lands at different times was drawn from state documents, accessible to every body..-- This be mentioned to show that his statements were not embel lished b language, or ornamented by invention. In the time of these revenues had increased from 86,0001. which they were in Mary's time, to 132,0001. and all her revenues for the pur sut of offence and defence did not exceed half a million. The Napoleon of the sixteenth century alienated away 666 holdings, which brought him 2,200,0001. After the restoration, Charles only resumed the lands of those who were most active partisans of the re bellion ; and it appeared by the returns to parliament by the camels sioners, that the amount of crown domains not resumed was 217,0001. year. The whole of the crown revenues were compulsorily conceded by William, to his followers or Parliament, for long terms, at short rents. This was the time when the greatest assaults were made upon crown property. It was also the first time that this property was applied to Parliamentary purposes. At the accession of Quest Anne a civil list of 600,0001. was settled for the first time upon HOUSE OF COMMONS--TUESDA-T. . her, as indemnification for the loss of the crown property, them lien by the public. The terms of the preamble were, to defray Mr. LITTLETON presented a petition from the 4111ellemi "art of the expenau of the Government, and lessen the burdens of victuallers in the district of the Staffordshire Potteties at•p)rrt the the people by applying the proceeds of the crown revenue to those opening of the Beer Trade.—Referred to the Committee an Beer purposes. This was the mien of the civil list. Subsequently a Licences. bill was brought into this house by Mr. Shipper, Mr. Strangeways, The Hon. Member also presented another from the same place, and Mr. Lockhart, for the purpose of reclaiming those lands which against the renewal of the East India Company's Charter.—Re- had been disposed of by the parkas of the revolution. That bill fared to the Committee. weaned the third time the la March, 1711, but it met with its Also a petition from the inhabitants of West Bromwich, in Stat. grave in a place where many measures of utility had before and fordshire, praying a revision of the criminal laws, and against the since been entombed. The failure of this bill caused a stagnation punishment of death for forgery.—Ordered to be p r i nte d. in the endeavours to reclaim the crown lands till 1760, mid It sp. Mr.HASTINGS presented a petition front the licensed victuallers p ee red that the memo of Queen Anne, which was worth 1,000400 of the town of Leicester, against throwing open the trade in beer. — was reduced to M. 16s. 74. Thus were the crown lands par Referred to the Committee on Beer Lionises. chased by .the people frittered away. No alteration took OM Mr. ADAM HAY preluded a petition from the Prevost and at the accemitet of his late Majesty, except ea arrangement that 7- Inhabitants of tbe Royal Burgh of' Linilthlnrw, against Obi re" Bths were to be paid in goes and ( Bth in rent. After that such newel of the East India Company's Chartet.—Refered se the was t h e corru ption of those @coconut in the eli e pe re d of thi s pro. Committee. petty, that they let the land first fir nothing, and th en so ld t h e pew Mr. DUNCOMBE presented a petition from the omens p ert y e p ee a calculation of that tom. He should give p one to. played in the lead mines of Liddradale, In the West Riding of o wn I n rod of what be was sayingt thus to the %tufty feud. Yoekshire, complaining of distran..--thdered to be printed. ly there were sold all that and thus the whole of Piscadlllyfrom The Earl of ABERDEEN begged to assure the noble earl who had just addressed their lordships that the subject bad been under his (the Earl of Aberdeen's) consideration. With respect to the change which had taken place in 1825, as regarded the establishment of consuls on the present tooting, be believed that it had been agtved to, by the unanimous wish of the other house of parliament. Since that period, however, there had been great reason to doubt whe ther the change had produced all the good effects anticipated— (Hear.) He had no hesitation in saying, fram the information which he had obtained on the subject, that he was very much in clined to come to the same conclusion that the noble cart bad come to—via. that the original system of fees, as a remuneration for the duties of consuls, who might be persons engaged in commerce, where the situation did not lie open to objections against their being engaged in commercial transactions, would be, perhaps, the best footing on which to place them. He would go further, to say that he hoped to bring forward some regulations which he trusted would reduce the present expenses of Consuls, and yet have the duties fully performed. In South America the whole diplo. matic duties had been carried on by means of Consuls. When. ever there was not a minister appointed there the Consul. General officiated ; but he (the Earl of Aberdeen) had thought it to be his duty, where a minister was resident, that the office of Consul-Ge neral should cease. The Earl of MALAIESBURY agreed in toto with what had bean just asserted by the noble earl. Viscount ODDER ICH thought that some modification might be adopted between the present late system with respect to the re. muneration given to Consuls. If the whole of the salary were to be taken off, and fees substituted, it would tend to injure many individuals. As to the other point, allowing Vice. Consuls to carry on trade, be had considerable doubts of the policy of that mode, and he was persuaded great caution was necessary in granting such permission. The Earl of ABERDEEN said that, the question having arisen quite inddentally--(har, hear,) it would not be expected of him to enter into all the details on the subject. The noble viscount was of course aware that it was necessary for a Consul to obtain permission from government before he could carry on trade. Viscount CiODERICH signified assent. Lord HOLLAND remarked that the question of Consuls hay. ing come before the house, be was desirous of asking the noble earl opposite (the earl of Aberdeen) whether the Consuls appointed to Northern Africa received their appointments front the Colonial or Foreign Department ? The Earl of ABERDEEN said that the nomination or the Consuls for Egypt was in the Foreign Office, but for the Barbary States in the Colonial Office. Lord HOLLAND was at a loss to know why the appointment to the different consulships in the state to which he had alluded should in one case be in the Colonial and in the other the Foreign Degrent, e tm Earl of DIAL3I REBURY was desirous of explaining. H. did not say that he wished to see the whole of the salary to Consuls abolishe&—but that a small salary should be attached to each, and the fees restored. The question was then put by the LORD CHANCELLOR and carried. The bills brought up from the Commons this evening baring been read a first time, their Lordships adjourned at a Quarter past Six. Swallow-street to Park-lane, valued at 2,0471. was let for 5001 The entire sum received for 26 years after the accession of George 111. was 11,6751. by which it appeared that the lands were worth 78,0491. yet the actual receipt was only what he stated, 66,4771 being a loss of about 12.0001. during that period. The honourable member mentioned the grant of Bowood, in which the borough of Caine is situated ; the estate of Seaton, in Yorkshire, to the Earl of Mulgrave, which, though valued at 2,0001. a year, un sold for 27,0001. and the fine upon which had never been paid intl. the Treasury. To show, also, that those connected with the office of Woods and Forests were responsible for their conduct, he stated that the commissioners who sold the forfeited estate of the Earl of Derwentwater. valued at 9,0001. per annum, for 1,0001. two were expelled this house, and two others reprimanded. He men. tioncd this, to show how useful it was to keep precedents be fore our eyes. (A laugh.) He next came to the grant to the Duke of Newcastle (then First Lord of the Treasury) of the town of Newark, for 4821. The fine actually paid upon this bargain, under the Act of Geo. 111. was only 2001. whereat it ought to have been 3,7811. Against this transaction the commissioners emphatically marked " enormous job." It appeared by the reports of the commissioners, that from 1700 to 1786, the rents paid out of Wales were only 125,1251. while the cost of collecting that sum was 124,0001. thus making the sum paid in the Treasury of 6491. only. He did not know whether the Whigs or Tories were most to blame in those transactions; but he believed the case was worst against the Whigs. He wished It to be understood that he did not wish to disturb any titles, but as the lands were stated in the reports of the commissioners to be diverted out of the crown, it proved that they ought to be resumed to the use of the public. Having made these remarks, he would now come to the woods and fo rests, which he would dismiss in a few words ; not because it was unimportant : on the contrary, it was extremely important, as this department comprehended property of great value, con. slating of many thousand acres, which, however, was not so important In a pecuniary as in a political consideration. Were he to go into this question at full length, he was well aware what predudices he must encounter, and what difficulties he had to surmount, before any thing like a thorough reform could take place. He should satisfy himself by pointing out the mis management generally which prevailed in that portion of the crown lands. If it were asked what was to be done with the royal forests, which had been reserved expressly for the growth of timber for the navy ? he would answer by saying there was no difficulty in providing for their management. They ought to be transferred to the Navy Board ; and, if the hands there were too few for ma naging the business, government might conveniently find room for some of their servants who had lately been ousted from their si tuations, whether owing to the recommendation of committees or to votes of that house. It appeared that, in 171.6. a commission had been appointed to inquire into the crown property in woods and fo rests. The commissioners directed their attention to every forest in the kingdom, and in their report they say that every advantage might have been expected from the enquiry, but at the same time state that it would be needless to go on so tong as those who reside in the forests have such an interest in the existing abuses. They further state that the management is so defective' and prodigal that not only the produce is consumed, but great charges are In curred for the mere management of the property, and that from 1761 to 1786 no less than 144,8821. had been expended out of the general fund for the management of his majesty's woods and forests. AU remonstrances, the commissioners said, were unavailing ; and so negligent were the officers that they did not even seem aware that a Commission had been issued for making inquiry. In some of the forests the greatest possible abuse and negligence prevailed. In that, for instance, of Hainault, and Wegner, in the county of Southampton, the amount received was only 15,0001. while the expenses for the management was 24,0001. being 9,0001. more than the value received. Another forest, eoosistiog of 5,424 acres, abounding with timber, had been ets a hens of 85 years, for not more than 1451. and another estate cOod ilawmelleid Law, consisting of 394 acres, had been usurped by (Man reties, among the rest the Earl of Westmoreland, which, at Int, was Inally given up by the Crown at less than one farthing par acre. (Hear, hear.) In another estate in Sherwood Forest. assisting of 96,000 acres, the disbursements from 1760 to 1786 fse management, had exc e eded the receipts by 9,0371. and ano ' thee , which had been valued at 2,4501. had been sold for 8001. said the expenses of the same amounted to more than the whole amount received. In another forest, where the Duke of Newcastle had an interest, it appeared that a wide road had been made through the wood of the forest, on each side fenced in ; but, though it was done for the convenience of the parties in the neighbourhood, the expense, amounting to 1181. was charged to the Crown. The commissioners, on being appointed, sent round circulars to the Crown Receivers throughout the country, directing them to make returns of the incomes received within their respective limits. The return of the annual revenue of Crown lands, exclusive of the weeds -and forests and mines, was, in 1786, 102,6 . 161. and this y was spread over forty of the fifty-two counties of England. Hear, hear, )tear) The commissioned, in order :to ascertain whether this rent was at all equal to the value of the property directed surveys to be made on ten different estates, lying in Worcestershire, Lancashire, Essex, Nottingham, Wilts, and Lin coln, and it appeared that the value of these estates, which, by the returns, were rented at 3,2421. were actually worth 8,3941 so that, if this proportion were applied to the whole of these es tates, the annual income, instead of being 102,6261, would amount to 300,0001- This he should therefore take as a standard of the value of the property.. The commissioners did not recom mend the sale of the property at that period--namely, 1786, but thought it would be advisable as soon as the leases had elapsed. Peehaps there never was a more convenient time than the present for the disposal of this part of the crown property, because it never was less incumbered, and the leases (with the exception of a few, to the amount of 26,0001, which would expire in 1836) had all now expired. There was another subject to which he wished to call the attention of the noble lord--that was the inadequate mode of letting the property ; and in no instance was this more remark able than in the way in which houses were let in Piccadilly. It appeared front a return made to the house that several of these houses were let for 301. 501. and 701. while they were worth at a moderate estimate five or six times the amount. The vey inadequate and imperfect description of property was 'also amsebee great defect. From the present description of crown pro perty, no one could form any idea of the magnitude or value of it. and he had no hesitation in saying that the property in the hands of the commissioners of woods and forests was sufficient to corrupt Parliament. It was only necessary to cite one or two instances. In 1784 two estates bad been let to Sir Sampson Gilead for 371. and the yearly value was now 5001. In the manor of Newark, too, a lease had been granted in 1730 for 30 years to the prime minister of the day, for 1441. per annum. In 1770 a plan of property was made out, from which it appeared that it consisted of 95K) acres, and had on it 50 houses. The value at that time, which formerly was rated at 1441. was now let foe 2,0001. and he had reason to believe that it was worth altogether 200,0001. At least, if he might judge from information received from a gentleman in that quarter, the pro. petty held at Newark by the Duke of Newcastle was worth that amount. The Duke paid for it 2,0001. a-year, he let it at 4,0001. for political purposes, and it was worth, altogether, not less than 6,0001. a-year. The next estate to which he would call dish attention was that of Rosedale, in Yorkshire, and, if he was to fix on any, hrwould say this was the most remarkable foe nt. It was certainly singular that the noble lord bed to take advantage of the recommendations of the C 01786. They stated that no dealings could be en. tered loM chest the estates till all the leases had expired, and till the farms were better regulated; but when these are accomplished they somminiended a total change of the system. (Hear, hear, hear) Time Liss expired in 1816, yet no steps had been taken in the recommendation of the Commission, and = ili tte ge flume were allowed to remain from year to year is Ills Made of the tenants • at last, on the 30th of September Mk they were put up for sa le, and the only description of the pro. was, that it consisted of 5,000 acres, though, for aught that wptuawa, 2,000 of these might be good arable. He wrote to the filrneilissen of Woods and Forests, and had a reply. Whether his interference was the cause of the result he did not know, but the sale was deferred, and a new description of the pro. sky was given. They were at last put up for sale, at York. ita the 21st of December, when the country was covered with snow, and when little or nothing could be known of their value.— It appeared that the commissioners, in cases of this kind, always received a ---lees bid, which they mid prefer to all the rest Wept ohs Salim Wddig_ pospolly was 37,0001. anti what was the seem od big? MOM Mindy double the amount offered lithese ttbi WWI Oa Mee soittred with the property. He *wows. dwell have sold in lots. It had been di lls'', 411 ibume. Sessets of which were owners of the tithe-- Old as it was v ela peculiarly valuabledesoription, they were desirous a bellsdig.parcli of their several tenements He bed had a keit demi by forty of them to that erect. He thought de real raise 4 dis land to the Crown had been much deprect. std, by Its met having been disposed of in parcels. The next property of she Crown to which he should call the attention of the House was blown by the name of Sunk Island. — It was situated at the mew* of the Humber, and bad been reeds. mod hew the sea. Shit paperty had been early estimated to how law wade NAM T the repot! the Coe. be eti assib.7 le e :L u mber. Tbis aentioeed sii:wrrhad 1011111! Rev. Jam Sallaiale and others on keens one of . 11 be allePone Pialibr was dated in 1771, and the rent re served ON Wall Only OIL Is the year 1798, a new valuation bad been mode, by which the value of the island had been estimated st 0011. elan (Hear.) In UN a new kiwi bad been girls the Rev. J. Lonsdals, at an ire sesed rest of 10 01 . s - Var'• awl a line ef 8,4091. of which a considerable sent remained unpaid. One year after the date of this lean, the lionised J. lemarlaie having expended 10,0001. on 'Nissen. r'os'ary for 2,000 lib*