Star. — London, England, 1830-04-03 00:00:00

Sir RICHARD VYVYAN presented a petition from the borough of Truro against capital punishment, in cases of forgery. Laid on the table. Mr. LITTLETON presented eight petitions *ern different dis. senting congregations in the Potteries of Staffordshire against the burning of Hindoo widows.—Laid on the table. Colonel CARTER presented a petition from certain Jews residing in Portsmouth, praying for emancipation. The Marquis of BLANDFORD presented a similar petition from Rochester and Chatham. Mr. W. DUNCOMBE presented a petition from the Inhabitants of Whitby, Yorkshire, against the window tax; also a petition from certain woollen manufacturers in the parish of Morley, Yorkshire, against power looms. THE SHIPPING INTEREST. Mr. SYKES rose to pretext a petition from the shipowners of Hull, complaining of distress, and praying the house to institute some inquiry into the causes of the present depressed state of the shipping interest. The petition came from a great number of shipowners belonging to that town—men who were well educated, well informed, and cognizant of their rights. By the petition which he held in his hand, it appeared that a meeting of these shipowners had taken place, and a petition had been agreed to, setting forth the melancholy pros pects of the shipping interest of the United Kingdom ; and as this sub ject had never undergone a full inquiry, they entreat the house to adopt sonic measures to retrieve them from their hopeless condi. tion, and praying that their interest may no longer be made the sub ject of experiment. They further pray for more rigid econotny in the public expenditure, and for a more equitable provision for the expenses of the State, by substituting for a portion of the heaviest taxes a modified property tax. With regard to the reduction of taxa. tion and the substitution of a property tax, he perfectly concurred with the petitioners. He should be sorry, therefore, if the house should leave the petition on the table, without instituting any In quiry for their relief. In his opinion, there were only two modes of relief-the one was by extending our foreign trade ; and the other was by relieving the shipping of some of the heavy burdens under which it laboured. (Hear, hear.) With regard to the first, he looked with considerable hope to the alteration which might be us. petted to take place on the renewal of the East India charter. It was most galling to British seamen to be precluded from traffick. ing in the Indian seas. He sincerely hoped that the prohibition would be taken off. (Hear.) He had hopes also that the settlement of the South American States would open a field in that quarter for the extension of British commerce. These were the two modes of relief; but, besides these, theme were other subjects which well de. served consideration. In the first place, British ships were plated in disadvantageous circumstances owing to the expenses of the coast lights. These lighthouses were farmed out, and large revenues were raised from the impoverished shipownets for the benefit chiefly of per. sons of wealth and property. Another drawback on them was the pilotage dues, and also the contribution to the Greenwich chest. But there was another duty which pressed still more severely on the shipping interest—he meant the duty on hemp, and he could not see when other duties were :removed, such u that on leather, why a heavy duty on hemp should remain—an article which was so necessary anti in so much use in the rigging of ships. The marine insurance duty was another evil which pressed severely on the shipping interest. Again, why was not the duties on timber and deals equalised That timber in bond should pay higher than when cut in deals was a paradox, and was, in fact, nothing less than holding out a premium for foreign labour. There was another im. ' portant subject—the bonding system. Was this system altered and put on a more favourable footing, a great relief would accrue to ' the shipowners, and he hoped, when an opportunity arrived, that means would be adopted for removing many of those burdens. lie had received a letter from an intelligent gentleman of the port of ' Hull, which entered into some particulars respecting the disarm'. Cages under which the shipowners laboured now, as compared with MI. The following was a part of the letter, which well merited attention : I have procured, from an authentic source, the average rate of freights from America and the Baltic to Hull, from 1816 to 1828; also, the prices of provisions and the rate of wages, during the last nine years of that term, the result of which I beg to submit to your notice. Ater age rate of freights, provisions, and wages, from 1821 to 1824, and froll 1826 to 1820, all inclusive, 1825 being excluded FREIGHT.:-- .£ s. d. / 18'21 Meme1..... .....1 3 3 to Petersburgh 4 110 1824 America ... 2 4 6 Total. _ --.£7 9 7 1326 ( Memel .... 1 0 1 to Petenburgh 310 9 11129 America .. 1 15 9 Difference. 6 6 7 __ 3 0 .£lO 7 7 per cent. diminution. PROVISIONS AND WAGES. Beef 4 19 4 "'" Rork 3lO 3 t° 1824 Bread W.tges 2 17 6 Total. 12 0 W Beef 5 15 3 to I ' 2" Pork 4 1 10 1329 13read Wages 3 0 0 Difference. _ _ 13 15 11 Cl 15 1 ield 11 4 per ct. increase Total x 29 19 11 per ct. against the shipowner. Freights for the present year are expected to be at leat five per :or. lower than 1829." Th: hon. member concluded by stating, that the petitioners said their property was slipping away, and, unless something was done, their case was hopeless. 311. 31ARRYAT said-1 have listened with attention to the statement of the hon. gentleman who presented the petition, and I can affirm, from my own knowledge, that the distress of the ship ping interest is by no means exaggerated. I remember the time when a British ship was insured at half the premium asked upon tite foreigner. Now, from the causes I have stated, a foreign ves sel is often preferred to the British. Notwithstanding this, lam afraid that it is not possible to grant effectual relief by legislative t•teasures. In tity judgment, the distress is to be ascribed to the natural approximation to the low prices and profits of foreign na.. nuns, whielt has at isen from the free intercourse since the puce.— fhe surplus seek employment in foreign trades, where they must of necessity n av i gate upon , terms as low as foreign ships. These low Ireights bring duwu the freight:of British ships at home to the same It 3 s ci and th us ca use an un i versa l separat i on . I s i ncere l y l ament :tts distress, but an, afraid the proposed remedies would in thus end e . sly in crease the etil. I see no means of alleviating the British •;:tp-own e r, except by reducing the duties upon all articles required ta the construction and outfit of his vessels, in order lbw he =oft y cheapness of materials, be enabled in •Oille degree to compete .nth his foreign rhal. Mr. ROBINSON was the more anxious to address the house on the subject, because last year, when he spoke on the same subject, the right hon. member for Liverpool said the shipowners could not so distressed as had been represented, because they, still went on building ships, and they were not likely to do so if their profits were " small. He said at the time that the statement was not correct, and referred to the years 1827, 1828, 1829, during which yearn mere had been an alarming falling off in ship building. He lad that very day received an account of the state of the shipping for :S e present year, by which it appeared that the falling off in 1829 114 been considerable. It appeared from this return that the de .Trille since the year 1827 had been very considerable on the sth of limitary ; of the respective years, the number of ships built, and the thithitge being as Inflows :- 18-'1 ilia vessels. 207,000 tonnage. 1828 . 1279 h 183,460 1329.. ....1173 . • ....128,720 107.5 ..110,681 ' 411 0 , 1b.g a de crease i n 1830, as compared. with 1827, of 844 vessels and 98.407 tonnage, a diminution of nearl one•half. In the same mum there was given the comporative number of British aml Fo. ieign shit* which had entered'and let the Bailie in-' 1829, and the balaitee ;v.'s gruady against the Haitittb. The mgrs comprehended the four prilic.pad commercial a:nutria of the Noah of Europe, sweden, Norway, Damask, and Pnwsis ; and • daring the year II:29, the proportion was as follows: a EN LaTiC. Foreign vessels 1046 . MAW tam. 14,4111 mon. British vessels... 1,164 101,02 4 11 10 X...... 8 0 64 ditl9' OUTWARD BOIDIII. Foreig./ . .......... ..2137,t41k ..13,1000tdiesi. ............ 1,023—...1310,405•Abt0•—••• 7,6" Maki,, in round numbers balansmageinsasite &idols of tieliabipa, distw tr.tl 12 "MOO 'oils. Ile could not help observing that, by the eon 'ent'un• al l 'he mats is the noised @aspire. Lad. een. throws open to .t coun try ettich possaesed only the throw pasts of `Venice, Waite, '"d raunc, ot which it slenakt be itecallsetad that Visite had laid) 0,:,K, del:lard- a free port, and that we could , have bad atom to it in common with the rest of the world, widtbut the: aid I • this treaty. H e roma, in reftrearo to the 'budidltir otahlpa, •h;it• notwitilerah t kin g the • 1414. i stag" vhkh hulk *predicted 'ion Mile reciprocal ureatica, lona na,..........bmanthmmt Is. "1 bad been materially dimisialtad thruttgbsttc,thessoniry. Is tleut of thi*aasostion, he 41)0444 %Us** sttsstllllt al thatotold id k 's which .had beam stated in leditiatto whitall.•l l o* bd" :11411 ' (111 table borne days before. In the town of Whitby awe 774, in the ye*, eiht btrittaarflo• and lteclierdach, 64l „ ,• ronstrection and repairing 'dr '• epee aim three nma v.iven up, too had been likely abindimed. and 'the petitioners -'td that, tittles that houu should do something to relieve their distress, the entire of the remainder would be abandoosd also. The ship-builders gave employment to a variety of manufacturers— they circulated vast sums of money, and supplied a most extensive stimulus to industry. For these reasons—their coodition--their proeperity—was highly worthy of the consideration of that house— he should assort that the subject demanded inquiry.•—that the inquiry should not be refused—that it was the duty of that haute to go into an investigation of a system, which had wrought such consequences and width, whether right or wrong, had falsified the predictions of those who had been its promulgators and admirers. (Hear, bear.) He felt it his duty to state these opinions on the subject, as his hon. friend had said that he had no inclination to follow up this peti tion by any particular motion. But whether his hon. friend should originate a motion on the subject or not, he felt it his duty to exprashis hopes that his majesty's government would enter se riously into the consideration of the distresses of the shipping interest. Mr. BUNCOMBE had before contended that this distress was not imaginary, but most urgent. The petition which he had pre sented from Whitby had proved that several ship-building establish ments in that lowa had been abandoned, and that others were about to share the same fate. He hoped his Majesty's Government would apply themselves to this subject, to ascertain if any possible relief could be extended to this important interest. He hoped that the . President of the Board of Trade would take the subject into his serious consideration, in consequence of the extent of the evils to I , which he had alluded. Alderman WAITHMAN expressed his concurrence with what had fallen from the hon. gentleman who had spoken to the petition. Mr. HUME said that he had hoped that the president of the board of trade and the master of the mint would have taken some notice of the statements made in support of the petition before the house. He considered that it was within the power of government to afford relief to the petitioners. The impost upon light-houses, which threw some 18,0001. or 20,0001. into the pockets of noble lords or gentlemen, commissioners of the woods and forests, was a most iniquitous burden upon the petitioners. This could be re moved. He considered that the tax upon pilotage, which went to the support of Greenwich pensioners had never been intended, and should also be removed. Mr. BERRIES was sure it could not be expected from him, that he should then enter on the vindication of the principles of free u:ade--he used that term, not firom it being an especially correct denomination, but because it had been adopted by the general sense of the house. In those principles he had understood the honourable gentleman to have concurred ; and, indeed, the more they were considered the less hesitation would be felt in adopting them. He (Mr. Berries) had bad frequent occasion to converse with men of intelligence who had been affected by the dis tresses of the times—with persons closely connected with the ship ping interest, and they had candidly abandoned all opposition to their principles, when the least attempt at argument had been urged in their favour. Then he was called on to defend the reciprccity system on this occasion--that was not his system, he was not bound to defend it, but he bad concurred in it when advanced by others, and when a proper occasion should arrive he should not shrink from sharing in the responsibility of having adopted it. The honourable member for Worcester had presented calculations to the house, which had certainly been mistaken. (Hear, hear.) The averages for the last four years, as compared with the four years preceding the adoption of the principle alluded to, ending with the year 1822, certainly exhibited an increase in the tonnage of the country both in Its outward and inward bound commerce. This was a fact proved by undoubted official returns. It was true there had been an increase in foreign shipping in our ports; but it bore no proportion to our own increase, and the additional employment had been chiefly in favour of Britsh seamen. He did not mean to deny that profits bad diminished, and that distress had arisen amongst the shipowners, but he assured the house that on the part of government there was no want of considers. tion for this misfortune ; on the contrary, his majesty's minis ters had applied all their abilities to ascertain an appropriate re. medy. They listened to all persons who had statements to make, with the utmost readiness—they weighed the information which was tendered to them with the greatest care—on no occasion had they been neglectful or deficient in sympathy for the distressed, and they should continue to pay every attention in their power to an interest Coextensive and important as that of the shipowners. Mr. ENFANT referred. in confirmation of the assertions of the right hon. the President of the Board of Trade, to a declaration con tained in the report recently made by the committee on commerce to the congress of the United States. That declaration was as follows : —‘‘ When the present and past condition of our navigation are contrasted,—when we compare the increase of British and Ameri. can tonnage before and since the war, and show the rapid growth of the commerce of the British North American possessions, we shall learn to comprehend the advantages of a system of free trade " --(loud cries of Hear,)—" and we shall, perhaps feel no small degree of alarm, lest our fatal restrictions should have already driven us too far in the rear of all our rivals for national power and naval ascendancy."—(Hear,hear.)—Attsched to that report was • comparative statement of British and American tonnage actually employed ; and from that statement it appeared that for the last few years the increase had regularly been on the side of British, and the decrease on the side of American tonnage.—(Hear hear.)—The hon. member for %Venerate bad q u oted the number of foreign yes. seta entering inwards as a proof of the mischief arising to the ship. ping interest front the reciprocity system; but the evidence which the honourable member had brought in support of his position did not appear to him to be altogether sat/strawy. For his own part, he believed that all foreign shipping was in a much worse situ ation than our own. The distress of the shipping interest was not the malady of our country, but of the times. He believed that the further we advanced in experience, the more should we be convinced that the doctrines advanced upon this subject by his right hon. friend, the member for Liverpool, were doctrines founded on sound policy and the most philosophical principles of political economy. They were the seeds which would hereafter ripen into a plentiful harvest of national wealth; and to their prosperous results might be applied the beautiful expression of Virgil— Mox veniunt, seris factum nepotibus umbras." The petition was then brought up. On the question that it be laid upon the table, Mr. ROBINSON said, that he must be permitted to make one or two remarks on the observations which had fallen from the right honourable president of the board of trade. The right honourable gentleman had.said truly that there had been—not that there is—an increase in the amount of British tonnage entered inwards and cleared outwards. The right honourable gentleman had not given the re turns up to the latest period. He (Mr. Robinson) had seen the official return for the last year, which had not yet been published, by which it appeared that there had been a decrease in the amount of tonnage for the present year. (Mr. Herries)-.." Nu, no.") The right hon. gentleman said, that there had been an in orease in the amount of British tonnage employed in trade generally. He would undertake on another opportunity to show, beyond all possibility of contradiction, that that increase belonged entirely is the vowels engaged in our colonial trade, which had nothing to do with any reciprocity system, and to the vessels engaged in the Bra. zilian and Indian trade. He would undertake to show that there boa been, during the year ending December, 1829, a decream in the registered tonnage of the United Kin g d om o f no l eas d esk 6 41 vessels. Mr. BERRIES said that be had alluded in his former statement to British tonnage alone. He had said, and documents which would soon be in the poaseasimi of the house, weld bear him out in his details, that the tomato of the fonolest years had exceeded that of the four yeasts pw•Wiee the adoption of the system alluded to, and that of the year 1890 had been gasatcr than in say of its sots. The hon. gent here some calculations, which left an amount of tonnage, equal • ta.388,000, in favour of the four last years, as compared to the four preceding la= Mr. ROBINSON asked if this did not include foreign tossup in our ports ? Mr. BIERRIRS replied in the negative, as also to an inquiiry of Mr. TaiNT, whether stesar-boats had been instead. in the •eu- After a few words from Mr. Stress, the petition was read std laid on the table. Ma. SYKES presented & petitions from die disorieeef.Ripplogs in. Yorkshire, for the opening of the trade teas Hem Indian Mime 'Deferred r the committeeoo.East Indian. Wales. Ms. N. CALCRAFT pawned a petition des the mitigation or, is severity of the criminal lac • The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER Moved that tie' ' house, on its rising, should. odyesten Oil Monday. YORZLIM roLiera—olierics. Lord J. RUSSELL put a question to the right hon. gentleman :Zeltwith respect to our foreigrarelatione. On aoferineipsinlio wi e iti a motion had been made for the produrdion•of papa; ,Li Wows to Inc mg/datione respecting the settlement. sf -41 non, lan pion had been withheld on the ground that the 50 00 5t...1--- erere atlkl la progres& Since then 1' had es.-- the spews' of the Film/ of France his eity informs than that the bad been brought to a close, and dn preside over its destinies. Although reign had 'not been sliuded to, yet i Leopold, .and be (Lord J. RaWkii),. better selection multi not have besot of Gime be confided to one baiter and, maintenance. He now „wished sot arrived when his Ahijesty'- bay the paper* continued !NM 1142 true the country was in b . ;ire .oboabed.:lo our domestic abobill not fowl tbia one P OD At Ills 'More tti moored 1n t he course of foreign Mend to hare been erroneous, left us in a state of exhaustion from with our utmost' effects, we should ever recover. He therefore thought that it was the duty of parliament and of the country to watch narrowly our foreign relations. He confesst.d that for his part,. he felt great distrtist for the policy pursued by our Ministers with foreign states. With respect to Portugal,he had felt this opinion during the whole course of the conduct of Ministers in regard to it; and when the case of the Terceira transaction should be brought before the house, he should manifest that opinion by his vote.— With respect to the questions of currency and trade, he was inclined to support the line of conduct pursued by the government, and, generally speaking, he thought their domestic policy afforded no grounds of opposition. llut, w i t h regar d to their foreign policy, he had not the same confidence, and he was sure that many in that house felt a similar distrust, and he therefore hoped that the right hon. gentleman would soon lay the papers on this subject before the house, in order to enable them to form an opinion. If he heard the negotiations were not at an end he would not require than imme. diately, but if a conclusion was come to, he hoped the papers would be at once laid on the table. Mr. Secretary PEEL begged to nuure the noble lord that his ma jesty's government were most anxious to l a y the papers which the noble lord asked for, as connected with the late negotiations respect ing the future state of Greece, at as early a period as was consistent ' with the interests of this country, and of the condition of that state to which the noble lord referred. It might be satisfactory to state, that the parties to the treaty of the 6th of July, 1827, had come to a definitive resolution with respect to the future government of Greece, and also that they were of entire accord as to the se. lection of the prince to whom the future sovereignty of Greece was to belong. Upon the future government and condition of that country—which, as he had before stated, was to be one of unqualified independence of the Porte, as well as with respect to the future cover ign—le would repeat that all the three great parties were in entire and cordial concert and co-operation, and up to the present moment that state remained entire and uninterrupted ; there were some minor points upon which their negotiations were sus pended, and until the conclusion of these, the noble lord would concur with him that it would not be for the public interest that the papers should be presented. He did expect, however, at no remote period, to receive the commands of his majesty to lay them before the house. Lord JOHN RUSSELL asked whether the points alluded to, as under discussion, referred to the allies or to the Porte. Mr. Secretary PEEL said they could be hardly considered points of difference. They were negotiations between the friends of the Prince who was disposed to accept the Sovereignty of Greece, and the allies. The negotiations were not between the powers them. selves, who were of one mind, but between the Prince, who was to be future Sovereign of Greece, and the allies. LAW INTELLIGENCE. VICE-CHANCELLORS COURT.—APRIL. 2. EZPAATIC common IN ILE COMPTOS. This was a petition to supersede a bankruptcy on the spew ! tion that the bankrupt was not a trader. The CoMmisaion was issued in the year 1828, and the trading sworn to was that et a fustian manufacturer. The trade being carried on only Isrfore the passing of the present Bariknipt Act, in 1825, it was &rut to be, insufficient. It was nest net up that the bankrupt was a brickmaker. This was also bad, because it was only carried on as *Slice or lessee of a farm; ar.d : riekt, it was attempted to be .hewn that the bankrupt was a carpenter. This trading was also denial, as the bankrupt merely employed a joiner to make articles for his own use, and not for sale. It was then submitted that the bankhil* having acquiesced in the proceedings up to this time, ought not to be allowed to avail himself of the summary jurisdiction of this court by petition to set the commission aside, but should be sent to a court of law to try its velithty, by au issue. Wort &Joey. His Horton*, the Vies. Chancellor, said that it wss Abe duty of the Court, when it had a clear ease before it,. to out - akar tir litiga tion, and not to involve the parties in the ruinous ennui* of useless proceedings. Ile thought there . was little doubt o f the want of trail ing, and as for the acquiescence In the Commission, icappesred that the bankrupt. was in p r i son w h en i t was issued, td Ipad so been ever since hie final examination, having. been adjourned, sine die. At his own inquest. He therefore &Nutted that the Conimalmion should be superseded as prayed. POLICE f7f7T.CLIOENCE. BO W.STR BET. Yesterday Bekurco, the rA.pugiftst, 'aid present proprietor of A 1 house in Andsi , euutt, CetherintLairwti, miss chirgeti. itith having sounded a poor old black man, named Thomas Backman, in the head wills a poker, and otherwise ill treated hini. The jcomplaiottat stateti that alaltit hell-palt elto o'clock that morning he caned at Belasco's house for two-pence half.permy, ihieh-win due to hits wife, when the defendani • called idtk abhifk r ~ and ordined him about his hairiness. Thia,hrougitkonsome Words; and Waite* suddenly seised . a.goker ' and knocked him down {Witt it. As he was end e avourin g to rise he reeekhd a 'second bloke or the same weapon on the head. A female, named Sharpe, corroborated the statement of the cum. .ploisent. ce nonstable L named Kirkman, also dorm& to havingiquoS the *lei bled stretched on the pamonent bleedin 'dmififully front tkintOund in the head, and rating! Helium 'Mai ba • i, acing attitude with is. poker in hja hao l l„ laic meow to take the black into' custody; bki he, teat - Whie stasids, :.,c7both patties eo the weighltiiiihir 2 • s r: d rz! dlichlrCaph* ,1 4RomPr Matt' of irifig ...y s li dunprovoked con uct. Delasca; 4his tiefitiec, sake that ti badateale to hie * Wee t is oor of ineoxiestif% a le re tCalaft Ir !I. Aqw# SoAlidow Pc- . Mile "I OMIt, and began to 'the w ndow.altutters. 11_ Fee not' until the= blank hat *ekes. one ehheskeeter• that he hill him& 00. him.; but he solsarly proVisted • that lic,lsosk?lPtiUlutialci* &Vend of the new police, acid' then two inmates's, come' frwazd tighatliebito i: chemical, mkt to speak I*l vilikket el ' • tu.4ristrt.4- that' don the ground th a t t h e ' that office could, before long, be done ;way Aith aTlegerni.: --- 7 - 31 1 /71§7;3717Lt said thit tAiri'ettiatibe 110 ittitiliC polt4' b en h e had seen t o t h e The vot e o f 8,9301. f or de f raying th e salaries of t e ordnance h 'born wad. It little tdomuch Hoot hc vat.ificrattei w If is IN,. t h e D egoe mek om ,„Ad hropeet , iip e reeeb .. The next vete Wilk that a sum, rat exceeding 48,0701.- be grlansil t with kudb'eruilty. • MY. 3flbsbblr tilar *consul ' Vt. std t h ee , p e w ee b e d h eortepe e medeo to his Mltjesty for the purpose of defraying the salaries. of officers liesiltand iniffiy dalcsinined ea imiiiiitinie f el.• t ho ug h the name of tits h olm l b w . iplongN„.lw the ordain* as home, abriad; and in liebiad.,lffir himself in 100/. vitt two atircti t l ow, /0 4 fir Ida *o s 4. ce :4 ; t e Silidoneto:lnewee iiii chops . .... • yet it was understood to be /1 8 " ma. - J • L o il) ,. f or we. was al' 0091404b e ti, Ms. !Wm F: moved, as an amendment,, o reduce the vote . Bail was pun in in the, smut it din op . .. . boas mod,a- -nor nonld Ow .lai w as, 413,0701. we 17,4101. - which wadi he sullieleat 0) liellity 'the ex • it letter adapted fix the* edlianongem of the Ordnance department at home , . end be iris* , tn see that* RA MSO ATE, MAR l; hi r t iWgfing 6 . RN v.i.hite . to. know. wket,kni the orw w b e d watients tiv.t!ieperste. of nOVlwiliiiiuN oewot int t 'iieihitii 're , w t • i y's commands should be issued so . s erinklNuerY th ought the plan • .. bP 4166 l'et: membir sa t•d oit a pile that had been driven and Ma.* -. .. ; . c .:0 4 . 1 ,4* ith ibis uunancien bcfce fltelinnant. • AbevOsniosee them * K r mnl " l ll7 4 i llllll44 „R o t t e lli r e ir d oo llirrif kialtr o nt a M ' • t.l in great distree•-•.64 •tha: ag e ob bo e t d feast the country ,' per num r• A,._......,- ....... ,17 tbe • - • . • • •• e-1i,...... r, = • . . IP 4 .14 illint le . WilfferAMill.b* (LW* .t.. i 14f Il ta l itt l Y 11 "ei ilf.c° ll ‘ ll . 6 _,_," 1131 w u g• °_,, , 11 0. 61 .; ipae;de 4 ted tow , elii rag. ... .. .. - et i • oneltrod t sqqave ot ai. e_ ;. wear , ~ tr.' t ,- . ~,..,e enl TA e. or lope .a.r, .51!.. _tditiirrlit. .114 aiwwwwlsreadiwrasiliel , rwmilnoint is .- • ?4 aur , clop ma: TIM lacy iiitint certainty rave , coon"; boo ms kubilembal l in h owa ta is i v i e j w icikhoo. 0ww „,,.. min polii ni l a igh ink- • Ittts l V an OMB wt unmet Ito" 1164 4endyi f eTas bben • butiWiairiii4 e nd years. Bite applari us, but Wb ,at al events, had r 24d. . I VIld. each. Believing that this grant might, and to hart bee, foreign built, Is of ear ; w.,1 ..ome pf her planks ate :it) f rom w hi c h i t was d ou btf u l wh et h er ought, to be reductd to a still boa scale, he should now move, as inches broad. She is wood fastened. SUPPLY. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER having moved the order of the day for the Committee of Supply, Alr. P. THOMPSON said that it was his intention to take an early opportunity of calling the attention of the house to an import. ant subject, namely the moving for a Committee to inquire into the charge and collection of the revenue. He wished to hear whether any steps had been taken to appoint a commission for the purpose. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that, on making his financial statement, he had said it was the intention of the government to appoint unpaid commissioners to inquire into this subject. ORDNANCE ESTIMATES. On the question that 8,933 L be granted for the salaries of the officers at Woolwich, Mr. HUME complained of the want of reduction in the ordnance department. What in 1796 cost only 18,7001. now cost 71,0001. The four lords of the admiralty cost but 4,0001 a year, while the officers of the ordnance department were most numerous and ex pensive. Mr. S. PERCEVAL believed it would not be respectful towards the hon. member to pass over his statement without notice; but the hon. member would himself candidly admit that he had made a ge.l neral and sweeping attack upon the amount voted fur the establish. meat of the ordnance. He ought to be aware that the services, com. pared with what had been performed in 1796, had much increased, and therefore any comparison with that period was no ground for' passing either censure or commendation. Mr. P. THOAISON adverted to the circumstances of four clerks receiving salaries of 8501 and six clerks receiving salaries varying from 3001. to 6001. Mr. LENNARD said that, as to removing the clerks from the Tower, the whole question was one of expense. The right hon. gentleman had objected that it would not be inconvenient, but would be expensive. Mr. MABERLY said it was most inconvenient that two este. blishments should be kept up. The committee did not take it up on the score of saving, but on the score of principle. It might as well be said that one portion of the Treasury should sit at Pall. mall, and the other portion at the Tower. The fact was, that the persons at the Tower had official residences, and they were afraid that if they removed they would not be remunerated. The gentlemen at Pall-mall had the same feeling. Would any man say that there was not sufficient room at Pall-mall for the persons at the Tower ? There was more than sufficient to accommodate all the clerks in the Tower. The Tower was originally a store department. It was now entirely a garrison, except for the storing of small arms. There had been no recommendation to remove the small arms. Sir HENRY VANE said that no small part of his business was the auditing of public accounts of various departments. The num ber of clerks was 323. It would not be contended that they should be removed, with all the detail of furniture, beds, bedding, and other things. There was not a more meritorious officer than his principal clerk. He had been above 80 years in his situation If that was not sufficient to give a man a claim to a salary, he knew not what was sufficient. Mr. HUifiEs;iiilliat there were many general officers who had not one-third of the salary ; therefore the hon. member either over. rated the one, or underrated the other. There were many majors, in fact who had seen much service who had not one-third of the salary. He wished to know how many clerks belonging to this department were at Pall-mall, and how many at the Tower ? and he also wished to know what was the calculation, which the hon. member had alluded to, of the expense of removal ? Sir H. VANE said that if all the clerks at the Tower were re moved it would be a great convenience to every member of the Board oft rdnance. The offices at the Tower were admirably suited to their purposes. Mr. /JUNI E recommended, in that case, all•the gentlemenshould go to the Tower. Mr. PERCEVAL said that the expense of dwellings was 2,2001. per annum. There were 11 rooms occupied as offices in the Tower —lO rooms by the clerks of the Ordnance—seven by the treaeurer ; making 28 rooms in all.. CortiIBTHORP 'raid there was no less than a sum of 44,1381. voted to clerks ; and incomes of WOOL and 1,0001. a year were en joyed by persons who did their business by deputies, whilst they themselves, no doubt, drank their champegne, and drove about in their carriages. Mr. LENHARD was anxious that the salaries of great officers should be reduced, and not the salarierof the clerks in the various offices. Mr. MADERLY said he thought there was sufficient room in Pall-mall for all the business to be transacted, and he saw no rea son why theie should be two separate establishments ; but the fact. woo, the gentlemen of the Tower did not like to go to Pall-mall, and the gentlemen at Pall.mall did not wish to go to the Tower.— (A laugh.) Sir OHORGE CLERK was not anxious to prolong the present discussion ; but the real question under the consideration of the house was the policy of removing the establishment at the Tower to Pall.mall, or the one at •Pall.roall to the Tower. Now, he lees of opinion that it was not worth while to enlarge the buildings of Other one or the other, which must be done if the e s tabli s hm en t s were consolidated, and that would cost the country from twenty to thirty thousand pounds, to effect a saving of, perhaps, four or, fipia hundt. pounds per year. • Mr. HUM is thought' no answer whatever had' been given; he thought 14,0001. might have been saved in the management of the Ordnance drtmeht. Colonel ?ESL was anxious. to Induce the salaries of some move. important officers than ordnance clerks. Hon. members rivalif must be more enosietent in t h e i r Mies before he could eve them' his suppmt. .r Mr. HUME said be did not ask for ihe support of the bon. member for Norwich (Colon e l P ee l) ; h e did nb t ekiveet it; neither did he wish for it--(a lough). lie did not wish to see ltimatit so inconsistent as to vote for reduction—(laughter). lle Hqine),, however, should wish, before the vote was agreW to, to ask'wheffier the office of inspector of gunpowder, at Faversham, was to.'be DOD. , tinued ? Mr. PERCEVAL said it was the opinion ofjejLrment 'that drat office could, before long, he done r The 8,9301. • defraying, ti oft rho -,othen a further amendment, fiat a sum not exceeding 18,7/81. he voted for the purpose specified. Mr. PERCEVAL maintained that it it was necessary to keep up the establishment referred to, in order that government might at an times be furnished with a sufficient supply of arms. It appeared that upon 1,946,259 gan.barrels which had been made since the year 1812, when the establishment was first formed, there was a saving of 98,6581. Dlr. LITTLETON. knew of a manufactory which, during the late war, was known tohave turned oat a musket a minute, to such a pitch was oanapedtion carried by private individuals. It was ru argument whatever to my that the Governmest establishment had the effect of diminishing the price, for be would put to the house whether every article in the iron and brass trade was not consi derably reduced in price for several years put ? Mr. Alderman THOMPSON supported the amendment, on the ground that government ought not to take upon itself any manu facture when it could be supplied so much cheaper by private Mr. lIIABERLV concurred in the same view, and thought it well worth the attention of government whether they ought not to dispense with all such establishments. Mr. W. WHITMORE opposed the motion as improvident. Sir H. HARDINGE said that government manufactured but ,t few articles for the purpose of keeping down the combinations from which they had sulFered during the war. Sir J. IVROTTESLEY thought that the right boo. gentleman's views respecting combination would be defeated, for. in the event ot . any, sudden demand, the workmen themselves would combine. After a few words from Mr. PERCEVAL, Mr. Hosts, and Sir R. FERGUSON, the committee divided For the Amendment .... For the original Vote .. Majority in favour of the Vote .. The next resolution was for 17,4321. tc delbay the expenses of the civil establishment of the Ordnance on the home stations. The rest resolution was for 28.7441. to defray the salaries of the civil establishment of the Ordnance abroad and in Ireland. Mr. JEPHSON wished to know whether it was not possible to consolidate some of the offices included under this vote. He found. that there were a great number of storekeepers on different stations more than could be necessary. In Cork, for instance, and its neighbourhood, there were no less than three. Mr. PERCEVAL said that the different storekeepers on these stations were under two different departments, the Ordnance and the Navy Office, and therefore could not conveniently be consolidated. Mr. HUME could not believe but that out of 92 stations some reduction might be made. The finance committee had recommended the subject to the consideration of the ordnance, under an impres. sion that some consolidation might be effected. He saw no reason why one man should not take charge of naval as well as ordnatic stores at the same time. Sir H. 11A HD' NGE reminded the hon. gentleman that the re commendation of the committee was general, and that they had ex. pressed no opinion on the subject, having examined the Duke of Wellington and himself, who had both given evidence as to the in convenience of consolidating the naval and ordnance departments. Mr. bIABERLY thought that a considerable saving might h.! made, if the recommendation of the finarct, committee had b4:en at tended to. Mr. GORDON did not see why three separate storekeepers should be kept up in Cork and its neighbourhood. Sir H. HARDING'S observed that Coik was the largest naval station In Ireland, and that the three storekeepers were sufficiently employed, to render consolidation impracticable. The vote was then agreed to. The next vote, for 3190/. for defraying the expenses of 4, master colours" in the various garrison s a b roa d, was agreed to. • 41,388. was also agreed to for the barrack-masttn. The house then resumed, and the report was ordered to be le ceived on Monday. BEER TRADE. Mr. GORDON, seeing the Chancellor of the Exchequer in his place, wished to ask if his majesty's government had come to any determination upon the subject of several memorials which had been presented by persons in the trader The question was, whether these was any intention of allowing persons to brew beer between this and the 10th of October, and allowing the same to remain in bond, so that it might be brought into the market upon fair terms with other beer after the 10th of October ? Many of his constituents, who were deeply interested in this bill, requested him to ask this question. 'Fhe CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that he was willing to give all the information lie could upon this subject. He agreed that a great inconvenience would be produced if all the beer to be brewed between chi and the 10th of October was to be sub ject to duty, as it would come into unfair competition with all other beer after that period. Ile proposed, therefore, to suffer beer I to be brewed between this and October to remain in bond till then ; and this, he believed, would answer all the objects of the parties.— (hear.) The Four per Cents Bill was read a second time, and committed for Monday. Mr. COURTENAY brought up the third report from the com mittee on East India affairs.—Lid on the table. Mr. HUME moved for various returns connected with the here. ditary revenues of the crown.—Ordered. The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and the house adjourned at One o'clock.