Star. — London, England, 1820-07-11 00:00:00

the slightest doubt should he cast upon the strict inn partiality of its proceedings upon this most painful proceeding. That pie,presecutors ought not to have any t ndue influence over the witnesses in any legal proceedi .g, was a proposition too simple and obvious . , to require any illustration. It was 'his . intention,' therefore, to "move that it be all lastrattion to the Committee to rec e i ve and considef,a clause, exempt' sag from the operations of this Bill all witnesses, who might come into this country to be examined as wit nesses for or against her Majesty the Queen. It was c•nremely essential that his Majesty's Ministers, who yore constitutionally the prosecutors in this case, ~ho ti t.d ;lot possess the means of refusing her Ma ieAy the means of defence, by excluding her witnes ses from this country. It was equally necessary that trey should not possess the means of banishing their A n witnesses I for although he did not suppose that -h e y would exercise such a power, they would be ena %led ti) suppress ail the testimony disagreeable to them. To remove from the minds of the witnesses all fears and apprehensionsfroni power which might be exer cised, it was necessary to take away that: power from tne Government. There was still another reason for thi s measure. The possibility that calumnies would hz asserted and spread abroad against the character of Padiament and the country, rendered it necessary to remove every pretence for those calumnies, and to ail .'t this or some similar clause to prevent the exer c.; of any undue influence over the witnesses who -ore to be examined on the one pan or the other.— Honourable Member proceeded to move his first C .suss:._" That the Lords of the Privy Council shall lase to be delivered to the Alien, a general summary 4-i the matters alleged against him, and allow him a reasonable time to prepare his defence ; and that it 511211 be lawful for the Alien to examine witnesses, and • J be beard either by himself or Counsel inhis defence." Lord CASTLEREAGH said, the arguments of - 4 1 .1 e Hon. and Learned Gentleman would perhaps have t‘ane weight, if the Bill under consideration were pro , . -ed to be a per - inane:it measure, but it had never .2a asked for by his Majesty's Government, bur as a r.:.!asure applicable to temporary exig en cies. The t; :t clause proposed by the Hon. and Learn ed Gen tleman, was to enable the Privy Council to institute a judicial inquiry into the cause for which an Alien .is sent out of the country, and to furnish a sum sratement of the circumstances which. might re.,der him an object of jealousy or suspicion to the Now, it was obvious that if there was any : , aed for an Alien Bill at all, cases must often arise wl-4eh the political rea s o ns whi c h m i g h t ren d er i t ex: , dieiit to send an Alien out of the country, could -1 it be avowed. If the. House were not prepared to It this measure, it would be better to say so at titan : to erect -so extraordinary a tribunal as proposed by the lion. and Learned Gentleman. A, to the second clause proposed by the Hon. Gen t:.:;: -to, to take out of the operation of the Bill all r-i„;cers who had settled in this country since the Tear 1514., it was too much to assume that no fo n:: J,:ler who had happened to reside here during the war could possibly be an object' of jealousy to the S:ae. Foreigners settled in this country in a time of war might entertain purposes as inimical to the tranquillity of the country as after a period of peace. There was no ground of apprehension that his Majes ty's Government would exercise the powers given by this Bill in a spirit of oppression. He could not agree to the distinction of the Hon. and Learned Gentle man, between foreigners who had resided in this country before or since, Ste could that distinction furnish any criterion whether they were or were not objects of suspicion and jealousy to the Stare. The only just distinction which could be recognised by the Legislature, was that between foreigners who were naturalized in this country, and these who owed no al:egiance in this country. If he had objections to the two first clauses, his objection to the third-was infinitely stronger. He could not conceive a more bail imputation upon the Government of a country, tan that it should be suspected of exercising its power to obstruct the purposes of justice. Did the honourable and Learned Gentleman - believe that his Majesty's Ministers were capable of throwing ob stacles in the way of her Majesty's defence?"(lfear). !.i.) far was his Majesty's Government from using its power to obstruct the purposes of justice, that he had :Lade a tender to the Honourable and Learned Gen t:eman who was to conduct her Majesty's defence, to, exert all his influence abroad for the purpose of riving every facility to the course of justice. If the House of Commons were to accede to such a clause, he was sure it would be felt as a great stain upon the character of the Government. It was in effect a spe cial provision to prevent Government froth commit t:a positive crime, which, if Ministers were capa ble of committing it, would not only subject them to the animadversions of the country, but to an im peachment by this House. If the Honourable and Learned Gentleman had directed his attention to cir c'imstances which had taken place within these few he might have found a better ground for ani madversion. If he had been really actuated by the spirit of vindicating the ends of justice and the cha racter of :he country, he might have raised his voice arainst the outrages which had been committed upon e:tr shores, and which might truly be considered as a rational disgrace. Whatever feeling might exist eii.ewliere, be trusted th ere was no Member of this House who was.not prepared to raise his voice against this violation of every principle of hospitality, hu manity, and justice. He felt strongly upon this sub ject, and he trusted the house would feel as strongly, and that even the Honourable and Learned Gentle man would partake of the indignation which be felt this occasion. Mr. SCARLETT felt considerable surprise at the ‘'ery extraordinary speech which he had just heard r'cna the Noble Lord opposite. For what was the 4it; , inient of it? That the power given to Ministers by this Bill was so odious, that it was a gross libel, :nal a wicked calumny upon ;hem, to suppose that. they could ever employ us- I (f/ear, hear). —Why, if this argument was to be allowed for a moment, the 'Ministers might in.a short time ask for the suspen ou of the Habeat Corpus Act upon a similar princ.i- Pie—Wear, hear)..--They might say, " For GOD S sak e suspend the Habeas Corpus Acs--for Gob's 3,1;;t:. give Op your right to. Trial by Jury—for GOD'S s:ike repeal all pairs most valuable laws. The power v..e shall gain by suck measures will be so odious, shat it will be a libel upon its tomuppose.that we-shall aoase it, and therefore you will be in quite . as good condition as feu a r e at. present"—(Laughter and, .., Meer) faarl. —Dot Could anything 6 more ridicu lous than this mode of irgurnentl The Noble Lord had niisiepresented the arguments of his Honourable and Learned Friend. His Honourable aiidLearned 'Friend had not proposed these clauses fur the par. • pose of insinuating any calumnies against his Ma. jestv's Ministers; on the contrary, he had distiocdy stated that his object was to repel such ealuirmieri. He (Mr. Scarlett) could not believe Out the Nobly Lord would make any improper use of the poieere conferred by this-Bill ; yet it was extremely pdssible that the Noble Lord might be suspected, and he would tell the Noble Lord why--(Near, hsar ! ) He did not believe that the country at large enter.' mined that opinion of the perfect integrity and free dom from all motive which the Noble Lord could not but entertain of himself. The very circumstance to which the Noble Lord had alluded in proper terms of reproach, was a proof that the public opinion of his Majesty's Government was not what the Noble Lord thought it deserved. The Noble Lord had said,: in answer to his Honourable and Learned Friend, that he had satisfied the House on former occasions, and there was, therefore, no occasion to repeat his arguments. Now, he would ask the Noble Lord whe ther the existing circumstances of Europe might not render some arguments necessary to justify the re. newal of this Bill ? Was there no change of circum stances in the last two years P Had nothing 'beers done to secure the safety of this empire ? Were we still expOsed to the danger of revolution from foreign incendiaries? Surely, if it was necessary to renew this tyrannical Bill, it was necessary to accompany it with a statement of the circumstances which ran• dered it imperative upon GovernMent to continue it. If such a Bill were to be carried at all, he rather wished that its provisions shpuld be as odious and tyrannical as possible, because there would be the less chance of its becoming a permanent measure,. He was ready to pat a rust compliment to the talents and eloquence of the Noble Lord, by expressing his belief, that if he had chosen to make the measure permanent, his powers of persuasion would not have; been unsuccessful in that House. • With respect to the constitutional grounds of this measure, he thought no man could do credit to himself or good to the country by looking back for precedents to the age of the Tudors. The practice of that age was incon sistent with the liberties of the country, and deserved to be held up to execration rather than example. He would look 'only for authorities to the time of the Kevoluticrn, and to subsequent periods, and he was prepared to contend, that the Crown had never had the prerogative which enabled it, in time of peace, to dispose of the persons and liberties of Aliens, in the =ander in which Government was empowered to do by the provisions of this Bill. Mr. W. POLE could not forbear making *smear servations upon what had fallen from the'lleo„.iiid Learned Gentleman who had just sat down. That Learned Gentleman had asserted in round terms; that the conduct to which his Noble Friend had alluded, was a proof of the suspicions which the Public enter tained of his IVlajesty's Ministers. He presumed that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman alluded to the out r -geous violence which had been exhibited at Dover towards certain individuals who landed there, because it was supposed that they came for the purpose Of giving evidence on the approaching important state proceeding. Did the Hon. and Learned Gentleman call that act the expression of public opinion? It was the act of a rabble. He readily allowed that the rabble were hostile to the present Administration.— He hoped they always would be so. It was a proof that the present Administration had acted with energy, and had successfully supported the dignity of the Crown, and the interests bf the country.— put, on account of this abominable and scandalous outrage, which the Honourable and Learned Gentle man chose to consider the expression of public opi nion, the House of Commons were called upon to throw a slur on Government, in the face of the Public and the world, by indicati such' a suspicion of Government as to withhold from them the powers with which they had formerly been entrusted. He wholly subscribed to the declaration of his Noble Friend, that if his Majesty's Ministers were found at tempting—not what the Honourable and Learned Gentleman himself, but, according to himothe Pub lic suspected they would 'attempt—if they not only did take no means to prevent persons from coming forward to give evidence for her Majesty in the pend ing proceeding, but if they did not give every possible facility, at home and abroad, for the production of such witnesses, they would deserve to be driven from their offices with degradation and disgrace. He feared that he was intruding on the patience of the House. It was this apprehension alone which induced him to remain silent on former occasions, when the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, and other Hon. Gentlemen accused Ministers, as if they were the vilest, lowest, anti most incompetent of human beings! The Hon.. and Learned Gentleman had, night after night, called his Majesty's Ministers a weak, vacillating, disjointed, wretclfed Administration, incapable of conducting the affairs of the country, enjoying no confidence any where—[Mr. Scarlett appeared to deny having used those terns]. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman had a short memory. Did he say that he had not meant to describe Ministers as a wretched, miserable, vacil lating set of men ? He should be happy to hear the Hon.-and Learned Gentleman disavow it. Mr. SCARLETT said'he had no intention of dis avowing it. Mr. W. POLE observed that he had a right then to consider the Honourable and Learned Gentleman as avowing it. ' Mr. SCA RLETT allowed that his meaning had the -, tendency supposed by the Right Hon. Gentleman, hitt trusted that he was incapable of using some of the words imputed to him. He had called the Right Hon. Gentleman's colleagues weak, vacillating, rind incapable of administering the affairs of the council in the present Crisis. Their acts and measures fully justified his having so characterised them, and he would so characterise them still 1 —(Hear k hcar)— He said this without intending per sona l disrespect to any of the individuals of whom the Administra tion was composed ; but, as a Member of Parlia ment, he - was entitled boldly to'cleclare his opinion of their conduct as a body I—(Heer,. hear). ' • Mr. W. POLE was proceeding to snake torn! further "marks on whit had fallen .from ' the -non. and Learned Genttenian, when The SPEAKER. interfered, and reminded the Right Hon, Gentleman of the great inconvenience • tilatlll4l4 arias, were the rules of the. itotiie Pei* mit sys Hon. Member to refer to particular expres sions Feed in former . debates `• Mr. W. POLE replied, that he should alwaYs boDi . the Chair with that respect *Zilch was due to in . *hen it was filled as It was at the present moment., Without, holever, referring to former debates, he would advert to what the Honourable and Learned 'Gentleman *had pretty boldly stated in the present. discussion. According to the Honourable and Learned Gentleman, he (Mr. W. Pole) and his colleagues were now a vacillating AdministratiOn—(Hear, hear,) — they were now. an inconipetent Administration— (Hear, hear,)—they were now a disjointed Aciminis• tration—( Hear,hear.)—H is Majesty's present Govern ment were charged with 'wanting ,the confidence of the House and of the country. Who were they who so charged them? Had Ministers never appealed to the House or to the People, that this absence of con - - fidenee on 'the part of both was so loudly asserted? He would :tote it hyp ot hetically : if it had so hap pened that they had, during the last few years, made three or four appeals to the People, and had gained strength in every appeal—if such had been_the ease, with what grace could they be accused, after such an ordeal, of wanting the confidence of the Public? If it had happened that, on a great question in the last Session—a question which the leader of an ad verse party had declared, in? plain, open, and coun try gentleman-like manner, was a question whether Ministers should stay in or go out, that wretched Administration had beat their opponents three to one, would they then have been told t h at t h e y w ante d t h e Confideaceof the House of Conimons? He had long wished for an opportunity of touching on these things. He would say nothing of the conduct of the Geode: men oppchitts during the late war. He would say nothing of their prediction, that not one of our sol diers would land-in the Peninsula who would not re main there as a prisoner. He would say nothing of their unvaried anticipations of the triumph of Bona parte. The Public plainly saw that' these men ofi genius—these animadverters upon the conduct of others, with all their talents and all their confidence, were eternally in the wrong; as he trusted to Goo they 'always would be-4Loidlaughtty)—and that when they came to tbepoint, they were wholly in. effective and feeble. He was, sorty to see that what he had said had agitated the Honourable and Learned. Gentleman—(taughter). He truly and conscientiously' declared, that the only question for the House to de-- termine simply was, if, by adopting the proposed Clause, they would throw a ' s l u r on hi s Majesty's Go imminent which had not been cast upon them by an y former douse Ornimmons ? -Mr. SCARLETT, in-explanation, said,. at what he had observed was, that a great many persons out. Of doors might entertain suspicions of the intentions of Government, which certainly were not entertained hy•limself. • .He.no more considered the sentiments of such. persons to express the public opinion, than he considered the votes of that House to expreis the public opinion—(ffear,. hear). -Mr. W. POLE said, he understood the Honour:. able and Learned Gentleman way, that what passed at Dover was a manifestation - of public .opinon. • Mr. ABERCROMBIE was willing to put the dis cretion and judgment of the Administration 'upon 'the speech of the Right Hen. Gentleman (Mr. W. Polel; sod 'Disported the propositions of his. Learned Friend, not - on the ground that the powers vested in the Government were likely to be abused, but be cause they were inconsistent with the spirit of the British Government. - It was not that they (the House), who knew Ministers; suspected them of any inclina tion to abuse the confidence reposed in them, but in order to do away. with any false feeling which fo reigners might entertain of their liability to have an' oppressive authority exercised over them. With re gard to the proceedings (at Dove r ) whi c h had been referred to, he hoped they were only local, as they rust undoubtedly be viewed with horror and dotes 'tation by every man who had the spirit of an Eng lishman. -But, while.n6 native could look upon the transaction without blushing, and a wish that it could be expunged from our history, the natural impres sion upon foreigners must be that the people were hostile to them and their cause, and it was to guard .against this prejudice that the Resolutions were, framed. While mentioning th ese, p art i es , h e must say, that it was a pity no better arrangement had been adopted with regard to them, than that which left thent to ride about the streets of the Metropolis at midnight. , . Mr. R. MARTIN declared, that the Noble Lord rnust . have established himself in therod - opinion of the HoUse and 'the country by hi s declaration on a recent evening, that Government would use every means in their power to bring forward, from every part of the globe, whatever persons her Majesty nAt think' proper -to summon for her' ( vestment would forfeit the opinion of the House and of the empire, if they dsd nOt do what they had thus solemnly pledged .thandvor to pert form tc and he toad by no means, therefore, put an inoperatiie clause, Eke that proposed by the Ho nourable and Learned Gentleman, in competition with such a pledge. Sir J. MACKINTOSH- said, that he would sot attempt to follow the Right Hon. Gentleman *ppd . .- she through 'the various points of his speech--a 'speech distinguished by *so much moderation, so strict an adherence to order, so complete in absence of un necessary digression, so thorough a self:command, so abundant a portion of temper and discretion— Thiser!).—As to the character of the present Admi :;dstration which' had been given by his Honourable ;and Learned Friend, of this he (Sir J. Mickintosh) .4was certain, that if any man out of that House were 'asked *at character, he would reply that it was a' :weak, vacillating, and disjointed Administration.-- 'What else could be said of an Administration that adopted an accusation.. against a high and (Pain pished Individual one moment, and disclaimed it the nextthat one day evinced : a spirit of decided and unalterable hostility tothat individual, and on the neat willingly laid the majesty of Pa'rliamitrit at her feet, in the hope, by conciliation, of c eir t iotin gl i eonipromis' e ?:—(Haar, hear 1) 7 . 7 -Whet:xis. -could be , bisid of an Administration; that assembled the xeliole, force of 'the : Scum of Commons. AO sinctintri pr o ceeding unpreiedented and dngerckosa prefeedi l i g :which wasitereat an infrititiOn ()fits principles as it was a degradation of its dignity—a proceeding which espOsed it to the risk of a greater outrage than it lad 'been exposed to during the six centuries which . ... I '9. gad tiepin' siiiiiiitS instittitibn o—(lii i ii, 1 0 ,4_1.. Thidet those ciretimitaltres, there was ,ho Min, if: tie, Capital at least, who could describe his Majesty s. present Government in other terms than those td• which he had alluded, without subjecting himself l . latent and heatky laughte r; a n d h e could assure tl Noble Lord, that such was the feeling out bf &Out_ no lest of those who sincerely supported the general measures of himself and his colleagties, then of those who Wire their determined opponents. The Noble' Loid and the !tight Honourable Gentleman had alto gether passed_ unnoticed the main argument which he (Sir J. Mackintosh) had - urged in favour of the proposed clause, naively, the necessity of removing from the Aliens„ . who were summoned as witnesses on the approaching solemn proceeding, all appre; hension that the powers vested by the Bill in his Ma jesty's Government would be exercised to their in convenience or disadvantage. He appealed to the House if that argument had been so weak, so prima facie absurd, as to deserve to be thus passed our in contemptuous silence? And if not passed over of that ground, the inference was, that it was unani swerable. The Noble Lord had charged him with not having alluded to the late conduct of the mob at Dever--conduct which, unquestionably, was most infamous and disgraceful--(Hear, hear, hear).--- But that conduct was punishable by the law as it stood. It was punishable by preferring a Bill before a Grand Jury. The Attorney General had sufficient means of prosecuting the perpetrators of that out.. rage. The interposition of the Legislature was wholly unnecessary. If he (Sir James Mackintosh) were td meddle with the ordinary administration of the law in that case, he might be justly accused of needless,. it not mischievous interference. And by whom had be nevertheless been called upon to interfere ? By those who, iu the last Session, prevented Parliament from inquiring into the most serious and important transactions, on the ground that it was inexpedient to inteAre with the ordinary course of law-4Hearl. _ He denied that the clauses which he proposed hi volved any reflection or insult towards Goternment.* Was there a single prerogative in the whole of our Constitution against which our ancestors had not pro vided securities? Were those securities considered to be insults? According to the principle of the Noble Lord, the Habeas Corpus Act, the. Bill of Rights, and every other provision which Parliament had made for the maintenance of the liberties of the People—nay, our liberties themselves, were so many insults to Government—(Cries of Hear, hear, hear). Such a principle was applicable 'only to such Go- .. .vernments as those of Turkey and Algiers-- , (Hear, hear, hear).—Our most sacred and valuable laws were founded on jealousy of the Crown .; but all these guards and securities of English liberty were proscribed and anathematised by the Noble Lord in . a single sentence. So far from Wishing to avoid such restrictions as those now proposed, it was ho nourable to every Government to*adopt them as a protection. against their own weakness, and' against the calumnies both of their malicious and of their just enemies. It arras a false pride which, instead of taking that wise course, blustered and talked big of pledges to the. Public, and of insults sustained by the adoption of measures calculated to prevent the occurrence of abuses. The only sure way in which a Government could chew that it was determined not to abuse its power was, to submit to have that poach restrained by the law. All ether policy—all inti mation of apprehended insult from the restrictiooof power, was hyped isy when it proceeded from tyrants; and weakness when it came from those who-enter: -, tamed no bad intentions—(Hear, hear). - • Mr. CANNING wished to make a few observaa tions on what had fallen from his Honourable and Learned 'Friend, if he were ant precluded from doing so by the speech which his ,Honeurable and Learned Friend had just made being considered in the nature of a reply. As his Honourable and Learned Friensta proposition was in.the shape of an Amendment, and 'not of an original Motion, it appeared to him (Mr. Canning) that what his Honourable and Learned Friend had just said could not be deemed a reply. A short conversation ensued, between the Smuts, fiir.ilmas Mocsnrrows, and Mr.euninto, on the point of order. Eventually, Mr. CANNING proceeded, stating it to be his in tention to limit.his remarks within a very small com pass. His Honourable and Learned Friend had ab stained from answering that which was transcendently , the most important part of his Noble Friend's speech —namely, that the proposed Clause was to prevent an abuse of such a nature, that if his Majesty's poi sent Ministers were supposed capable of pesmittiog it, they were unworthy to remain for a single hour in that capacity, - and Ought, not merely to be restrained; but to be driven with seism and indignation from their offices. ' His Honourable and Learned Friend had said, that he had drawn up this Claim witheue consulting any one. Certainly, his Honourable and Learned Friend -could not have consulted the /Lin. and Learned Gentleman near him; for that Hottotnd Learned Gentleman .found in the character of hie Majesty's Government a. necessity, which his lion, and Learned Friend disclaimed, for the enactment,—, To- the argument of his Honourable and Learned Friend, that all . power was by our Constitution at' tended with securities- against its abuse, the answer was; that Against ordinary abuses every guard ought to be established, but that the abuse which the pro posed clause contemplated was of so detesteble a na. , cure, that no Legislature'in a civilized country ought fora moment to anticipate its perpetration, but should look at it in the same point of view as . that is whi c h the ancient Republic had . regarded parricide. If the proposition were made in tenderness to his Majesty's . ' Ministers, they did not thank his Honourable and. • Lea‘rned Friend.. If it were meant as a precaution ter guard them against a temporary suspicion, it-was n precaution that must prove ineffectual. If the clause • • 'were agived to, and if, with other matters the suspi , 'lion which either existed out of doors; 'or was - :to he . . ,created by the speeeheswithin those walls, Went tote . ,made ruatterpf history, what defence could the pree — .....-; - sent Ministers have against thecharge, that they.teett , . - ••• sonotoriously-unjust, that Parlianiedt found it neceeir -. l ' ~ saty to add a clause to the Alien Act to prevent theft' "f- ~' • from• seeding but of the ecuntry the witnesses n hick Queen :1:;. Qaeen might fi nd it n e cessar y to ca ll i n h er cietenee -.', „.,.. 'Ministers could not hesitate be t wgra da t -in4k ilia& ' 1 - , r. Ofinspicron. They 'preferred the present, knowing that they could guard against its abiiLinuance by their conduct—knowing they could et.a.touna and act it down ; and that it would - be much better and,eatier to do that, than to incur suspicion for the time to .)F . . • • 1 F•