Star. — London, England, 1820-05-09 00:00:00

Pt I I 1 i also might very usefully undergo a revision. For, instance, what injury woull be done to the comma-' nitv, that coals should be brought from Newcastle in i;crrnan or Dutch vesiAs, if they could thus he obtained at half their present price? Some details, at least, in these laws, might be altered. They went chiefly, he believed, upon the principle, that no goods should be sent. into this cou ..ry by any ship, unless it was British, or unless it was of the country in which the goods with which it was laden were pro duced. Now where would be the injury of allo.:sing all foreign ships to import foreign produce? The text object of the Petitioners was the freedom of the linen trade from transit duties. If any persons, or bodies, thought that they would suffer by such free• dom, they would of course come before the Commit tee, and every attention would be due to what they had to say. All that he at pretent wanted, was to go with them, and all the parties interested, into an investiqatien of their objecti , .ns. Each trade would, no doubt, think itself entitled to protection: ; but he trusted that neither the Committee nor the House would yield to any partial claim, unless they con • vinced themselves of i:s justice. It had been said with respect to German linens, that if uo restriction upon their importation existed, the linen trade of Ireland would be materially affected. And when the question was under consideration at a former pe • rind, he believed that the influence of a Noble Lord connected with the North of Ireland, bole down the, suggestions which were made against the continuance of the transit duties on linen, that Noble Lord having been induced himself to believe, that if a facility were given to the importation of German linen, the staple 'trade of Ireland would be ruined. For his part, he hoped when the subject was ti;irly examined, it would he seen that no injury to Ireland would arise from the abolition of the duties. He would consent to have the Irish trade protected by every means, as be felt convinced that no part of the empire deserved • greater attention than Ireland—( Hear, hear !) But the general advantages of a free trade should not be sacrificed for partial reasons. One of the dis advantages arising :nom the want of that freedom was the impossibility of an English ship going out with a cargo of as:orted goads, which should not be more Winced in Their description than an Ame rican, or any other foreign ship could carry. And hen . ce it came, that in this trade this country was in many in:tances already outstripped—(Hear, hear !) ithlch stress had been laid upon the necessity of hav ing a Commercial Treaty with France concluded at the peace. Ile, for one, did not blame the Noble Lord who negociated that peace, for not making such a Treaty—( Hear, hear! li - anz the Ministerial benches). He did not blame h i m on account of the hostility to the trade of England, which it would have exerted throughout that country. The restric tive system stood in the way of this country's great ness, and there is little doubt that other countries would not have adopted it, if they had not the ex ample from England, a country which, as it had been pre-eminently successful in its Commerce, they sup posed it must also have been in possession of the true principles upon which that pre-eminence was founded. The trade to India might, perhaps, be more extended than it had already been. If it could be shewn that any injury would arise to the interests of the Com pany from that extension, either in India or China, he would not pursue the idea farther. One argument he had heard against it, that it might unsettle the arrangements which existed between the Company and the Government -of China; But it was well known that even from our own ports American ships were cleared out for China, while our own vessels were excluded from that trade. This was not only injurious to our Merchants, but it gave a less security to those who employed the Americans, than they would have possessed if they were allowed to employ British vessels. If any damage accrued, if any smug gling transaction took place, they would be sure one time or other to catch hold of British Owners ; whereas the American vessels might go from port to port, and never be met with to render any account. As to the difficulties with respect to the arrangements' 'c ith China, they :night be got over without difficulty. The trade to the Eastern Seas opened a large theatre to the entcrprize of Briti,h Merchants—(Hear, hear). The Americans might go where they pleased upon those Seas, while British vessels were excluded.—' Greater consequences would flow from opening this trade than he could at present describe—(Hear, hear). No one could tell what the enterprize of Liverpool would do when such a field of enterprize was ex tended before it—( Cheers). lie would not wish to do anything which might interfere with existing ne gociations, nor would he be in any degree disposed to interfere with the rights of the India Company but they should come forward and state the real dif ficulties in the way of opening the Eastern trade.— The circumstances of the times were such as to ren der a consideration of those difficulties, and of the possibility of removing them, extremely desirable.— If the House turned its attention to the subject, it would, perhaps, find that much might be done to wards removing those restrictions which oppressed the Commerce of the country. He was aware that, be..ides the sources of commercial difficulty on which he had particularly dwelt, there were others which depended on far different causes, and which time alone could remove. He was sensible— " now small, of all the ills that men endure, That part which Kings or Lords can make ur cure!" But, though some of the evils were not to be reme died, this %% as no reason against their proceeding to inquire ioto the system, in order to ascertain s hat might be alleviated. It was the duty of Parliament to turn their minds seriously to the question—to sbew the People that their wants were not neglected —to let them see that no party feeling or prejudice operated, but that all, however differing on other points, were united on this. By doing this, they would do more to quiet that disturbed feeling—to set at rest those angry passions which arose in a great measure from distress, than could be done by any other means. —(The Hon. Gentleman, after moving that the Petition be received, sat down amid loud cheers fiom asides of the House). The Petition was then brought up, and, upon the ques.:ott being put, that it be now read— Alt - . BARING intimated, that he had also a Peti tion, similar in its object, to present from the Cham ber of Commerce in Edinburgh. The Petition was then read; and, as it appeared in this Paper of the 2d instant, it is unnecessary to repeat it.l Air. LaILNFELL said, that after the able and lucid speech of his Honourable Friend, he thought it unnecessary to go at any length at present into the subject of the Petition. He cmild not trespass upon the House further than to sax, that he fully concur red in all the opinions which that Petition expressed, and that he would avail .himself of every means in his power to give them a practical operation. Mr. ROBINSON rose for the purpose of making ; a few general observations upon the question which had been so ably treated by the Hon. Gentleman who presented the Petition. Ile was fully sensible of the extreme importance of the subject. He had frequently befc're expressed the conviction impressed upon his mind, that the system of positive restriction, carried to so great a length as it had been in this country, was founded in error—(Hear, hear).—He had now no objection to repeat that opinion. The Hen. Gentleman had paid him a compliment which he was unconscious of deserving ; at the same time he was equally unconscious of meriting the qUatifi cation with which it was accompanied, when it was added, that both he (Mr. Robinson) and the Govern inent with which he was connected, were altogether " apathetical s upon the subject. For himself, he had in fact paid to it much attention, and the great diffi-- culty which he had to contend with was, how he ' could give effect to the wishes which he entertained. He thought that this difficulty arose in some degree from his own personal situation in that House, and from his relation to the Government with which he acted. But he might be permitted to say, that the opposition which he had met with was not confined to those from whom opposition was usually supposed to come. He alluded particularly to the transit duties, which, it might be recollected, were opposed and supported by Gentlemen on the other side of the House as well as upon this. Ile could not say how, far the Noble Lord to whom the Hon. Gentleman alluded, had any partiality to that restrictive system; but this he knew, that the difficulty which he had to induce persons to agree in the conviction of his mind, was such a one as ha could not overcome—(Weal, hear).—lle thought it right to say thus mitch as a reason why his principles were not carried into im mediate effect—(llcar, hear).—But, after all, seeing what the Hon. Gentleman had in view, it would be seen that no difference now existed between himself and the Hon. Gentleman opposite—(Hear, hear). — Upon the general principles they agreed ; but it was impossible that a system which had so long been acted upon, could be all at once entirely abolished— ( Hear, hear . 1 frcnt the Opposition).—lt was admit ted there were many points susceptible of alteration and improvement. As to absolute prohibitions, he was not prepared to say it was not possible, on a fair view of the subject, that no change could take place. In point of fact, within the last two or three years, great relaxations had taken place. Two Acts had been passed for the purpose of repealing three old laws ; and here he should observe, that the laws establishing the restrictive system, were coeval with the commerce of England—(Hear, hear, hear). The' laws repealed were derived from the reigns of Richard I. Edward 11. and Elizabeth. There were other laws which imposed protecting duties without end, which were also repealed. In the Report of the Lords' Committee upon the Bank Restriction Acts, there was a list of no less than three hundred ; articles, which were then prohibited. This prohi bition now no longer existed—( Hear, hear, hear). There was, indeed, a high duty upon them, but not so high as to preclude them from this country.— With regard to timber, he had no difficulty in saying, that, in his opinion, the state of the duties upon that article was such as to require amendment. It was his intention to submit an arrangement to effect that object. Objections, he was aware, would be made; but in all the communications which had been made with those interested in the trade, he saw nothing which he thought sufficiently well-founded to prevent such an arrangement. He agreed, that the effect of the duties which were imposed upon timber, without giving superior protection to the Canada trade, in jured-the trade to the Baltic. They were, in fact, proposed for the purposes of revenue, and not for pro tection; and he therefore thought it perfectly consis tent with good faith, even if .any persons had acted upon the proceedings of the Legislature, to make an alteration with respect to the latter portion of those duties---(Hear, hear). As to the Navigation Laws, perhaps it might be admitted, that they did in some degree tend to injure commerce; but that injury bore no proportion to the danger which would threaten the natural defence and security of the country, if 'those laws were abolished—(Hear, hear). But still, he was not prepared to say that there was no room for alteration. Indeed, many relaxations of them had been already made, which were scattered through several Acts of Parliament. Many exceptions to the Written rule had been admitted, which, he presumed, were well known to those who had an interest in examining the subject. He had already stated his acquiescence in the opinion which the Honourable Gentleman had given with respect to the transit du ties on linen. He did not know why that opinion was opposed ; however, opposed it was—and yet he thought it a subject well worthy of consideration. They were duties founded upon error, and had been imposed under c's:umstances very different from those under which they could now be contemplated. As to commercial freedom in foreign ports, he be lieved, that until we removed all restrictions, others would not—(Hear, hear). There was one part of the Honourable Gentleman's speech which he heard with particular pleasure: he meant that observation, in which lie (Mr. Baring) justified his Noble Friend, for not forcing upon France, or annexing to the Treaty of Peace, a Treaty of Commerce, giving advantages to us, but inflicting a punishment upon them. He was glad that an Honourable Member se well ac quainted with the subject had done this justice to the Government, for the prudenCe and policy of the course which they had adopted on that occasion. As to a free intercourse with France, he regretted to say, that there were great, he might add, foolish prejudices against it ou each side: they were national preju dices, however, not connected in the smallest degree with commerce. There were, he was afraid, feel ings in this country which envied the present prospe rity of that country. • He wished it was felt here, as it ought to be, that the prosperity of that country was one of the safest grounds we had for expecting permanent peace in this. He wished it was also felt, that if peace and commerce were to. go hand in hand, we would be the less likely to be again dis turbed by that military spirit which brought so many evils upon Europe—(llear, With regard to the laws connected with agriculture, he believed a strong feeling was eeeited in the country, and that there-were Members in the House who would bring them under its consideration. To that subject Go vernment had given its best attention; but, for his part, he was not able to persuade himself that there was anything in the existing law so radically wrong as to require alteration - : however, Ministers would cheer fully attend to any complaint which should be made to them in the fair. and candid way in which the Honourable Gentleman had done to-night. He had almost forgotten to observe, as to the India trade, that no doubt commercial intercourse would be pro moted by the estension of that trade; but the House would recollect, that this was a question of compact, and that it would be unadvisable to drive hastily into anything which would look like unfair dealing— (Hear, hear). The House had no right to compel.' the East India Company to abandon even one of their privileges, if they wished to retain it—( Hear). Mr. GEORGE PHILLIPS approved of the Peti tion, and of the way in which it had been introduced. He was also glad to hear the Right Honourable Gen tleman express opinions so favourable to commerce. He trusted they would not be rendered nugatory by that division in the Cabinet which existed in all great questions, much to the damage of the country. Mr. K. DOUGLAS expressed his concurrence in the opinion of the Honourable Mover, and his plea sure at hearing the sentiments avowed by the Right Honourable President of the Board of Trade. He must say, that he was disappointed in afterwards hearing from that Right Honourable Gentleman that his expectations of beneficial alterations did not ex tend beyond a few minor points. He was sorry that , he was not prepared to come forward with some specific propositions of relief, or at least, with a mo tion for a Committee to endeavour to do something to satisfy the Nation: The great principle on which alone any good could be done was, to devise the best plan for giving general employment to the industry of the people; ar.d it was not by balancing one in terest against another that any real beneficial conse quence to the whole could be produced. Mr. BEAUMONT thought that some measure should originate ou the part of Government. Lord MILTON said, he heard the Petition and the speech of the Honourable Gentleman who pro.: posed it, with great satisfaction; for if anything in the present state of the country could afford conso lation, it was to see sound principles of political eco nomy embraced by such an enlightened body as the Merchants of London. He would have heard, with equal satisfaction, the speech of the Right Honour. able Gentleman opposite, but for a little alloy which it contained; he was sorry to observe, that his con duct and his principles were not in unison. The sub ject before the House was one upon which no party feelings ought to be allowed to operate. This was not a subject on which to consider the interests of particular Constituents. They were to legislate for all, and not for Northumberland, or for Yorkshire. A union of Councils was most is de manded by the state of the Nation, and they were called on to inquire if the restrictions, which shackled and injured commerce, could be advantageously re moved ? It was true, that these restrictions were not peculiar to us; for almost every people had adopted them, as if acting on the lines of the Poet— --- nee nautica pinus Mutat& merces; °nuns ferat omnia But the great error (continued his Lordship) lay in this selfish principle, both as it regarded our relations with other countries, and our situation at home. It seemed to him, that the scrambling of Agriculturists for higher prices, and the competition of Mercantile Interests to meet them, were equally wrong, since the distress pervaded the country at large in which agri culture and commerce were, and not these classes in an insulated state. It must, in his view, be clear to every one, that they could not go - on long as they were. The five millions which the Right Honour able Gentleman obtained last year, had failed in its avowed purpose, and the Right H onourable Gentle man had been proved either to have been entirely mistaken, or one of the worst prophets that ever pro phesied in that House! Their true policy now was plainly pointed out to them by the failure of the past, wherein Ministers bad begun at the wrong end. It was not to rush to taxation, but to enable the people to pay taxes. In taking a view of the distress of the country, many Gentlemen traced it to different causes. Among these, the Poor Laws was one of common occurrence, and, he thought, ought to be examined most minutely. One of the effects of the war had been to absorb and draw capital into a smaller number of hands, and thus the great class of lesser capitalists were reduced to that condition which was likely to lay many additional burthens upon the Poors Rates. In this light, he must say, that the pressure of the late conflict. had fallen on the agri cultural labourer and artizan in manufactures, and not on the wealthy landed proprietor, or rich mer chant. With regard to the restrictive principle, it appeared to him that at least all the minor branches of trade might be left free. Though the Navigation Laws as tending to our national security, and the Corn Laws for their extreme importance, might have sacrifices made to them, nothing short of our inde pendence could sanction the principle. Another matter which must have had great influence on our system was, the return to cash payments. This must have augmented the pressure of the times, though, perhaps, they had not, in their anxiety to attain so desirable an object, looked the difficulties it was calculated to create so fully in the face as they should have done. There were many other difficulties to be encountered before they could re trace their steps, but when the subject was so ably and fairly presented, there was more than common grounds for hope, that it might be followed up most successfully. • Mr. RICARI)O took up the Noble Lord's remark on the subject of cash payments, and considered how far the bullion question affected the present discussion. He contended, that the alteration oc casioned by the return to cash payments was too small to warrant the conclusion that it had so prodigious an influence in producing national calamity ; he quoted the price of gold at seve ral periods, to shew that this was the case.— He was happy to hear that so many Gentlemen had spoken M favour of a free trade, and that the prin ciples so ably laid down by .Adam Smith were at length so well received, and likely, sooner or later, to be acted upon. It might be said that the present system of commerce was necessary towards keeping up the Public Revenue ; hut to this he would observe, that it was still more necessary to enable men to pay revenue, and that object would be best attained b r affording greater.facilities to those who were engaged in commerce. He acknowledged that a change in our commercial system would be attended at first with some difficulties, and, if speedily adopted, with considerable loss to individuals. He particularly alluded to those who had vested interests, and who had embarked large canitals in commercial specula tions. It would therefore be unjust to do away our present system all at once ; time should be taken for full consideration, and the change should be gra dually introduced. It was absolutely necessary to correct the present system ; and, if it should be thought necessary to establish a free trade, notico ought to be given, •that after a certain time such 3. change would begin to be carried into effect, and that a better system was to be reverted to. He wit, pleased to find, that most of the opinions given by the Right Honourable Gentleman opposite (Mr. Ro binson) agreed with his own. With regard to the corn trade, he conceived that it rested on the same grounds with other kinds of commerce ; for, if the growers of corn laboured under any peculiar bur theirs, it would be proper to give them comyensation and protection. Hut he wished to know whether agriculturists did labour under such peculiar bur thens, and if so, - what these burthens were ? It could not be said that the tar on malt and leather came under _ that description ; for these taxes fell equally alike on all parts of the community. It might be said that the poor laws were a peculiar burthen on agriculture; if that were the case, he w oulci have no objection to a countervailing duty on the, importation of foreign corn. He was, however, far from thinking that the poor-rates fell much more heavily on farmers than on the other parts of the community. Some portion of them might indeed fall as a peculiar burthen on the land; but then there were peculiar burthens on other descriptions of peo ple. If one were to go round among persons of various occupations, and find that almost all of them had their peculiar burthens, he could see no reason why any specific measure sho:.id be adopted in favour of agriculturists only. Still, if a greater burthen in pro portion fell upon them, he then thought it would be proper to lay some on the importation of corn. Tythes were certainly a burthen upon agriculture, and that circumstance might entitle them to be pro tected by a countervailing duty. Mr. ELLICE observed, that the farmers were al . - ready protected by the Corn Bill, and they were the only persons who were protected. With regard to the present Petition, he concurred in all the objects it proposed to effect; but, unfortunately, the present state of tl:e public debt and of the finances, must render all attention that might now be paid to alter ations in our commercial system, completely uselessi If the whole of our public debt retnained just as it now was, that House would only be deceiving the country, if they held out hopes to the people, that any benefit could accrue to them from such a pro ceeding as was now recommended. There were certainly some vexatious regulations in our com merce, which might be done away. It might be proper to allow all articles to be warehoused ; but, as the bonding system now stood, that could not be done, because it was necessary to give bonds on all exciseable articles that were now warehoused. When ever the Right Honourable Gentleman opposite of fered any practical suggestion, he (11k. Ellice) would give his best assistance, in endeavouring to carry it into effect. He hoped that Hon. Gentlenieni. who took .a paft in this question, would apply all, their attention to it, and that a wise and beneficial system would at length be adopted. Mr. MARRYAT conceived that oar own produce might be injured by the free importation of foreign produce ; and that to allow coals to be conveyed in foreign vessels, would be injurious to our shipping interests. He hoped that his Majesty's Ministers would pay particular attention to this subject: Mr. WILSON agreed, that in the present state of our taxation, it would be impossible to take' up the' subject then before the House with a view to the at tainment of any real benefit to the country. He was glad, however, to find, that the subject had been taken up; and in order that it might be better un , derstood, he thought that Gentlemen ought to bring forward particular grievances. Mr. BARING spoke in reply. He said he mnst differ from his Honourable Friend in what he said respecting the currency. A pound sterling at this time differed considerably in value from a pound sterling during the war. The difference was about 1:25 per cent. ►n favour of the existing currency. A. change in the value of commodities did not imme diately follow this change in the circulating medium, on account of the fluctuations which took place in the prices. The burthen at present on the country' was considerably augmented by the alteration which had taken place ►n the issue of Bank paper. He was sure that it was an honourable and liberal act to' limit the currency,' but he was not certain whether the Bank would be able to perform all that was pro mised. We were now a declining country in point‘ of Trade and Revenue; and the question was, whe ther more had been promised than could e'er be performed? Our great difficulty at present was a large debt, and we should not gi , -e the publiC credi tor more than we were bound to do by our strict contract ; but he conceived that we placed ourselves in a situation of difficulty, and gave the public cre ditor too great an advantage by recurring to pay ments in gold, and by abandoning silver which was the old standard coin of the realm. He should ra ther have made it a perpetual system, and made it optional in the Bank to pay in gold or in silver, Next Session he should bring forward a proposition to this effect. Mr. RICARDO, in explanation, said, that though two standards of currency might facilitate the pay ment of the public creditor, it would be attended much inconvenience in all public transactions.. Mr. BARING said, the difference was more theo retical than real. • Mr. W. SMITH approved of the plan suggested by his Honourable Friend (Mr. Baring) as to having two metals, as the price of one might operate as a. corrective to the other. The Petition was then laid on the table, as was also that from the Chamber of Commerce of Edinburgh, and both were or. dered to be printed. • Ai