Star. — London, England, 1830-03-19 00:00:00

duced without loss to the revenue. The effect of the reduction with respect to sugar was an instance. By the reduction which had taken place, one-fifth had been added to the consumption. In 1822, he had himself urged the expediency of reducing the taxation in Ireland, and in two years afterwards the Earl of Liverpool reduced the whole of the assessed taxes, and the tax on spirits. The effect of this diminution was an immediate increase in the revenue—(hear, hear, hear). Parliament ought to show itself alive to the present distress by some act, or some attempt at alleviation. It was possible that the distress might be partly of a temporary character. But that was a reason for going into an. quiry to ascertain whether it was so or not. It was on the real merits of the question that he should give his vote, and he had, sufficient reliance on the good sense of the country to believe than even if no practical good arose out of the committee, they would still be grateful to parliament for feeling a sympathy in their dis tress. But upon some part of' the evils, at least, the committee might have some suggestion to make to parliament.—{Hear.) Lord ELLENBOROUGH explained. The Duke of WELLINGTON said, he quite concurred with the noble marquis who spoke last, in thinking that it was de sirable to adhere to the practice of parliament, which was in fa vour of conducting inquiry by committees. But in adhering to the practice of parliament, they ought to adhere to it entirely. And he believed that practice was, when noble lords moved for a committee, to state specifically to the house the object which they proposed by the motion. Such was the invariable rule : but when, as in the present instance, every noble lord assigned a different object of inquiry, it was fair to presume that there was some other object besides the avowed one. His noble friend near him had said that the object was an inquiry into the effects pro duced by taxation upon the productive industry of the country. There was not one question of policy which did not come within the scope of the committee, as described by the different speakers. He had taken the trouble to write down the different topics alluded to, and they amounted to no less than twenty, inclu. ding, amongst others, the management of private property. The currency question appeared In no less than three or four different shapes. When he found a motion thus proposed and supported, was it possible to think that it was proposed to answer all those, and not the ulterior party purpose of embarrassing and even of censuring his majesty's goveinment ? The noble baron was mis taken in supposing that the committee moved for that night, was the bltne as the cotnmittee moved for and granted in another place. There was this distinction between the two motions—that the corn. mince moved for in another place was for a specific object—namely, the consideration of poor.laws for Ireland, while the present motion had nothing specific in its nature but that which was kept altogether out of sight. A noble friend of his had complained that the same mi. nisters who hail consented to the inquiry in another place, had ob jected to the same inquiry two years ago. That was true ; but the ob. jection was that it went to establish poor.laws in Ireland—a measure which the government was not prepared to adopt. The noble i baron had maintained that the reduction of taxation ought to be carried still farther. But the motion went farther than that;—it showed a want of confidence in his Majesty's servants— In called upon the llouse of Lords, after ministers had comedown to Parliament with a large reduction of taxes, to put them upon their trial. But the noble marquis had mistaken his noble friend lord Ellenbo rouelt, when he stated what would be the consequence of sp poeiting such a committee. The noble lord had witnessed the conduit of his noble friend upon other committees, and he must have known that it was always characterised by a conscientious discharge of duty, and a determination to bring the subject of invcs'igation to light. (Hear.) The noble marquis ap. peared to have forgotten a component feature in the committee appointed two years ago; he had forgotten that there was one q ues . tion excluded frorn their inquiry, because it was considered impos. sible that they could come to an agreement respecting it. With all due respect for the committee which so many noble lords had sup. 'ionic!, he would beg to remind the house that many had declared their conviction that it could lead tone result. .% noble lord had said it could not be expected that relief would be given. If not, then, he would ask, why appoint the committee at all ? It co u ld n o t be in. tended that they should enter into all the questions introduced that night, but it would either have no effect, or it would try thin ques. tion. Did the ministers put truth into the mouth of the king in re. sleet to the state of the country. He would say that the ministers hid put nothing but truth into the King's speech. He believed there was great distress in the country, but that it was not general, and that it was gradually subsiding. But the noble toed had accused them of saying that relief was beyond the controul of Parliament, though he had himself acknowledged that relief was to be expected from the appointment of a committee. The King's ministers had • felt it to be their duty to propose a large reduction of taxation. That reduction had been spoken of in handsome terms by she noble mar. quis and other noble lords. He could assure the house that govern. ment felt they had done no more than their duty, and that if they thought it was necessary to have retained the taxes, they would not have hesitated to make a proposition to that effect. He was happy however, to be able to propose the reductions. He believed that they would give great and substantial relief to the people, and that they were so chosen as to take the smallest sum possible out of the corers of the country, and put the largest suni possible into the. pockets of the people. Ile would not at that late hour go into the calculations which induced him to believe that at that moment the reductions could not be carried further. All he should say was, that as Govetnment had gone upon the principle of reducing every office and establishment that could be spared, so would they • proceed to reduce every expense which was not necessary. if they could do so to any greater extent, the House might rest assured that they would avail thetnaelves of the power. If they could not they would say so candidly to Parliament. and trust to them and to public opinion for the result. Ile would not trouble the house any farther at this late hour. Had the motion been confined to the poor-laws alone it might be a question how far the consideration should be entertained. Bot even in that case he would remind the house that the poor laws were already under the consi deration of parliament—that there were two or three reports of ommittees before them at present, and that they and the pub. he were already in possession of the facts of the case.—lle would abs rewind them that some of the greatest men, including Mr. I'itt and Mr. Windham, bad taken up that subject without effect, he would appeal to them whether, under such circumstances, it did not become Parliament to approach the subject with caution, and to wait for the restoration of prosperity before they attempted to make any arrangement on a subject so full of perplexity and difficulty. Lord ST.SNHOPE said he should give his most cordial supping I to the motion of the noble lord. The question was not so complicated as the noble duke had described it, but was simply whether in the pressen distressed state of the country, some inquiry ought not to take place ? The taxes, and the power of paying them, would soon pass away, and he was not sure but the constitution itself would pass away. The people were is unexampled distress, and they lost all confidence in one House of Parliament, while an inquiry to their distress was called for in vain, and refused in the' whet. lie thought it his duty to warn their Lordships of the con. sequence of refusing to inquire into the distress of the people, even though they could nut give adequate relief. He received letters :rout many p:,rts of the country, stating the extent and the pressure of the distress, which was also put before their Lordships in the pe titions laiJ on the table. The Earl of ELDON, in explanation, said he had been min. t 'ken. Ile did not say that It was not in the power of parliament to remove some part of the distress, though not all. The Duke of RICHMOND, in his reply, said he never bated language so libellous in parliament as that of the noble president art the board of conttoul ; and if there was now no act of par. liament to repress such language, there should be an act passed to such elect. The ministers did not dare to meet the tnoicet directly by denyin g t h e di stress ; hut they said it war got up .for factious purposes, and for the purpose of tenting out the Milliner& lie denied that such was his MOWN, and if be wanted to turn out ministers he would do it by a substantial motion and would not resort to a s u bte r f uge . lie belonged to a party which had hi , coun. try's welfare much at heart. Ile would never suffer his vote to be influenced by being called an ultra tory or a discontented pensionist. He was no radical reformer, but he hoped the house would tat girt radical reformers an additional argument, when their ease was proved (f or h e h a d a right to assum e th e y h a d prove d their cast,) by saying that, as the motion was an attack on ministers therefore they would not inqui re . li e h a d no motive , and his able R friend s h a d no mot i ve, but their country's good. This was a. straightforeani motion, and he hoped the house would agree to it. The house then divided— Contents Proxies .. . Non-Contents ..... Proxies .. --141 Majority sees..... Tilt Route adjourned at lialfL. rest Two o'clock. HOUSE OF COMTONS--TuvuspAy. Si r R• FERGUSON resented a potion from the magistrates and T u ji w iso n-C : pl u ( ne l i t i of Kirkaldy, praying a free trade to Chi na . ion, with thesam c p ra y er , from the Chamber o f Corn mew of Kokaidy. wiiim EAST InDIA cosituresrge. charter of ,presente4 the second repott or the committee on the unlered to l' pr ast India Company. Laid upon the table and Sir M. S. ART presented s petition Min 4,500 operative of w41117e" th " G haitaw t complaining of distress, and p re ying the open. Ing e trad e to the Thaw. China. The honoureble memb er ob serve d, t h at facturere than Were Ins better condition n ow an at this ttee l ast year. o Mr. HUME to c lew cf no , e Apported the preser _Of the petition, although he T he mode Or gi ving releftut by reducing tasstio n , petition was brought up and laid upon the-table. Lord BINGHAM presented a petition against the Vestry Act, from a place in Ireland and another against the Subletting Act. Colonel LUSHINGTON presented a petition from Carlisle, for a revision of the Criminal Law. Lord BELFAST presented a petition against the renewal of the East India Company's charter, from Beltlist. IZPORX or PAILWINNT. The Marquis of BLANDFORD presented a petition for a re form in parliament, from a parish in Norfolk. The same NOBLE LORD mowed an address to the crown for a return of the number of persons entitled to vote for members of par.' 'lament in Ireland, specifying the number in each place. Mr. ROSS doubted the possibilty of making out the return with any accuracy. Mr. BENNETT Attuned that last year the same return had been ordered for Great Britain. Mr. HUME did not see where the difficulty existed : if there were any, no return would be made. Sir J. NEWPORT observed that of course the number of free. holders was registered. He thought that an approximation might be made to the correct number. The Marquis of BLANDFORD was willing to add to the motion the words "as far as might be practicable." Mr. BATLEY remarked, that no such a return had been made from Great Britain on account of the difficulty of making it. After a few words from Mr. Alderman WAITHWAW, Mr. HustE, and Sir J. NEWPORT, the return was ordered. CRIMINAL. LAW. Mr. BRAMSTON presented a petition from Chelmsford, pray ing the abolition of !capital punishments in all cases excepting murder. Sir M. W. RIDLEY presented a petition from Newcastle-upon- Tyne, signed by magistrates, barristers, bankers, and others, praying that the punishment of death might not be inflicted in cases of forgery. Sir J. NEWPORT entered into a brief explanation of seine statement made by him on a former day; it was a correction founded upon a letter from a right rev. prelate, but it was impossible to catch the nature of that correction. DISTRESS. Mr. BROWNLOW presented a petition from certain operatives In the cotton trade, of Dublin, complaining of distress, and praying employment. Lord W. POWLETT presented a petition from Sunderland against capital punishments. The same noble lord presented a petition flora Darlington, pray ing a revision of the criminal code. Both to lie upon the table. Mr. PITT presented a petition from the publicans of Chelten.' ham and its vicinity, praying that no alteration might be made in the laws relating to licenses. To He on the table. Mr. KEMP presented a petition from Lewes, praying for a resi.' sion of the criminal code. Mr. TRANT supported the prayer of the petition, observing, that it was a national disgrace to inflict capital punishment for of fences against property. Mr. O'CONNELL moved fora return of the freemen and free burgemse• of the borough of Carlow, in Ireland, distinguishing the residents and nonresidents. A similar order bad been made last session, but it had not been answered. It was stated that the bo rough was the property of Lord Charleville, and he returned the member who represented that place in parliament. The motion for the return was agreed to. Mr. O'CONNELL presented a petition from the Roman Catholic Inhabitants of Galway, and from other Residents of that town, In. eluding 50 Protestant freemen, praying a restoration of the rights of Roman Catholics respecting eligibility to become Freemen of Gal way.—To be printed. The same Honourable Mexant presented petitions against the Subletting Act horn a Parish in the County of Kilkenny ; from Rosa earberry, in the County of Cork ; and from a place In Galway.--To be printed. Mr. SYKES moved for a Retarn of the Tonnage of Vessels, in. wards and outwards, of the Ports of Ireland, from the sth of Jan. 1823, to the sth of Jan. 11130, distinguishing the port of Dublin from the others.—Agreed to. Mr. MACQUEEN presented a petition from Bedfordshire, coin. plaining of the general distress ; likewise a similar petition from Haddington..—To lie on the table. Admiral SOTIIERON presented a similar petition from the retail dealers of Southeote, in Nottingham—Aho to lie on the table. Mr. JEPRSON wished to ask a question of the noble lord opposite respecting a memorial which had been agreed to by the grand jury of the county of Cork on the subject of trials which had been postponed, as they conceived, unnecessarily, and In conse quence of which it became necessary for them to apply fix a special commission at considerable expense to the county. Retuma had been moved for on the subject, and the reply was, that no trace of such • memorial could be found. The return signed by Mr. Gre.' gory, and dated from the Civil Office, at the Castle in Dublin, was, that no trace of such a memorial could be discovercd.As he had stated that a memorial of that nature was transmitted, he found himself placed in rather a disagreeable situation. There could be no doubt that inch a memorial was forwarded, and he wished to know from the noble lord how it happened that the copy of the memorial Gould not be laid before the house ? Lord F. 1.. GOWER said he was absent from Dublin when the memorial was sent up, and was really not just then able to account for no trace of it appearing. Mr. O'CONNELL. said he was Counsel for the principal pri soner on that occasion, and the Crown Counsel were not to blame. Cork twat the last town on the Circuit, and had the Judge remained but for one night longer, the expense of The Special Commission might have been spared. Mr. R. KING said that he, as Foreman of the Grand Jury, had forwarded the Memorial—it was a case deserving the actions atten tion of Government. Sir C. BURRELL presented s Petition from the Parish of Ship. ley, in Sumiex, praying for protection to British Wool.—Ordered to lie on the Table. be could not for an instant doubt, after the numerous petitions from counties and other places which were laid on their table. (Hear, hear.) That evidence was more indisputable than private letter, or anonymous communications; more unquestionable even than the letters from Mr. Kirkman Finlay, of Glasgow. or Mr. Gott, of Leeds, respectable as were those gentlemen. (Hear, hear.) As to the flourishing state of trade at Glasgow, what said the petitions front Renfrewshire, and Dumbartonshire ? Why they had never known such severe distress as now existed there. But if there were no distress in Scotland or Ireland. was that to be any ground for not instituting inquiry into the distresses of all the productive and labouring classes In England? Had any one declared, had any htmourable member insinuated, that there was not as severe distress as had been alleged to exist in the West of England ? Then why was not inq uiry to be inset. toted ? If there were not still more numerous tiees than had I already been presented, he b e li eve d i t to result TOM well-grounded ti confidence in the care of that house. The petitions were authentic proofs of the existence of distress ; and he thought the house would not do its duty except it instituted this inquiry. As to " universal" distress, there could be no such thing ; there would always be some classes exempt from distress—but he maintained that there was general distress amongst all the labouring and productive classes.— (Hear, hear.) Such general distresses as loudly called for inquiry and remedy. He was ready to 'Klink that the withdrawing of the small notes had been productive of many inconveniences. The situation of affairs might be something better in Scotland than in Eng. land—but the markets there were in a dreadful state. In Kirk. cudbright and elsewhere, according to letters he had recently re. rived, cattle had been absolutely unsaleable. As to the country banking system of England, it required revision ; but at the same time, he must say that the treatment of English bankers was abo minable ;—(hear,) the case of the Scotch bankers was inquired into, but that of the English bankers wan decided without any in quiry at all. But though he was for Investigating the country banking system, he would not acquiesce in any measure that would affect the principle of the measure of the year IBl9.—(hear, hear.) He thought the references made to Mr. Peel, as the author of that measure, were unfair. It was not Mr. Peel's bill in reality, though called such; it was recommended by committees after most laborious and anxious inquiries; and it was carried as it were b acclamation. The ministerial speeches were followed by load cheering on that occasion ; all approved of the measure; In fact It was the measure of the whole house, and for which the house, and not any individual, ought to b e h e ld answera bl e . H e conside red it right to express thus much, because he thought it cruel and unjust so constantly and so personally to attack the right hon. gent. (Mr. Peel) on account of that bill, as if he, and he only, were answerable for that bill, and all the difficulties that might have resulted from it. In all cases of change of currency it was the lender who ran the risk, and not the borrower; and if that measure bad not been adopted bankruptcy would have been the consequence. They had it from his Majesty's speech that the seasons were bad—but they had heard no other cause for the distress, which was beyond the reach of legis lative controul. If the situation of the country was so promising, what evil, he would ask, would result from the committee? But if, on the contrary, the gleam of hope should pass away, would not the house repent it had not agreed to the prayer of the petitions on the table ? Under these circumstances he felt himself called upon to give his vote for the motion of the hon. member for Shoreham. Mr. 'W. WIIIT3IORE said he did not rise for the purpose of denying that the country suffered more now than it had done for sonic years back, nor would he deny that the alteration in the cur. rency had added to that distress. There were usually two effects produced by a change of currency. One was the market price of gold, and the other the real price of that article. A system of credit grew up untkr a paper currency which could not be supported under a metallic currency, and the change must therefore be pro. ductive of loss to one class of the community. The country bankers found it necessary to contract their usual transactions. The two last harvests were deficient, and these circumstances together brought on the distress. Still he would not believe that this distress was permanent. He looked upon it only as temporary, and he had no doubt but that as much business would ere long be transacted in the metallic as ever had been done in a paper currency. A gradual fall had been going on in all articles for several years past—and he would ask what this was to be attributed to Since 1814 anew world had been opened to our productions in South America, which accounted for the imports from that country. There had also been great incr.ase of capital throughout the world, which led to competition, which again led to a fall in prices. He believed the fall of prices h ad reached its limit, and that there was hope that it would take a turn another way. He hoped that this revival would take place before long, and restore the country to its former prosperity. Another cause of the distress was the falling off of the precious metals—but he I trusted, notwithstanding that the distress would be found to be par tial and evanescent, that prosperity and happiness would once more revisit all classes of the community. He believed the Bill of 1819 was dictated by sound policy, and if they had not passed that Bill, the capital of the country would have sought investments elsewhere, instead of being kept in this counts y to diffuse its benefits by giving, employment to thousands. The Honourable Member for Newark recommended that we should have cheap bread by excluding foseign corn, but in this he disagreed with him, for he thought the ports must be thrown open still more to the importation of fore grain. There was an inquiry going on asto whether t' markets of China were to be thrown open to British capital. If those markets should be thrown open, he had no doubt but a step I would be taken to prevent the recurrence of such distress as the country at present laboured under.—(Hear, hear, hear.) He trusted and implored the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Peel) that he would , I not allow the prejudices of the Directors of that Company, and the i prejudices which he wu sorry to MC were entertained by that Board of Inquiry , to influence hhn in doing that which, If it bad g na t the immediate effect of relieving the distress, would, at all events, lay the foundation of future prosperity.—(Cheers.) Sir G. PHILLIPS said that the country was plunged into the deepest distress, and the great mass of the population was rapidly advancing to a state of hopeless destitution. He disagreed with se veral of the remarks of the hon. member who had just sat down, and with none more than that as to the extent of the distress. An gutty had been going on in Lancashire as to the extent of the dis tress. To obtain an average of general wages was impossible, but the average in particular plans he had been enabled to obtain. The hand-loom weavers in Manchester were paid as follows : (nth from 4s. to ss. per week. Men from He was told an improvement had taken place to the extent of 100. or a shilling. In Manchester, however, the number of hand-loom weaves was small. In Blackburn, the wages of haad-loom weavers was bar. per week ; but In Ashton-under-Lino and Dutton they were as much as 10s. per week. In Bolton they were from ss. to Gs. In Donley they were 111 s. per week. These were the highest wages' given, anti miserably low they were. The wages of the labourers at the power-loom were also low : Mr. Al. A. TAYLOR said, that some short time since he had introduced a Bill to enable the Lord Chancellor to issue Commis. sions de lunatic° inquirendo in a different manner from what had been heretofore the practice. Since then the Noble and Learned Lord had tamed his attention most seriously to the subject, and had consulted some of the judges; and as their opinion was, that the Lord Chancellor possessed power to issue Commissions of that nature in the manner which the Bill proposed, he should do so without the aid of any legislative enactments. Doubts had before been raised upon the subject, and the object of this Bill was to put an end to those doubt; but as the minds of the noble lord and of other eminent judges were made up on the point—before uncertain—it would be un to advance his bill beyond the present stage. It was due to the nob e and learned lord to state, that he wished to do all in his power to prevent expense—that he did not think the present tribunal the fittest for such inquiries ; that he had already expressed his dimp. probation of entertainments being given to the commissioners and the jury each day. The Lord Chancellor stated his intention of exerci. sing in future the power which it was now agreed that be possessed, of issuing commissions to judges of the superior co u rts, with Juries summoned in the ordinary way, to try questions of lunacy. To give the House some idea of the enormous expense against which the Bill was directed, ho had to state that the costs of the petition ing party alone in the Portsmouth case amounted to 23,0001.! Mr. R. GORDON was very glad that the Hon. Gendeman bad • withdrawn his Bill, because it only gave pow er to t h e L or d Ch an . Segers' received cellor which he already possessed . What they walked was a real and efficient Bill to remedy the evils of which they bad so much Males (from 13 to 16) .. 7s. lld. —.-- (from 16 to ill) cause to complain. The Order was then discharged. and what were technically called good uses, about 163. in Gloat. Mr. ROBINSON withdrew his motion for tomorrow till Thurs. meter, spinners received day tile Ist of April. Males Mr. WHITMORE moved for returns of Hicks, Skins, /Lc. chew.' Females . lag the rate of duty charged on each article red. In Oldham, at one mill they gave 30s. but this was above the Mr. E. DAVENPORT present e d a petition from the town of averag e , might be saw at 25 „ Th e h anonta bi a member Shaftesbury and the neighbourhood, complaining of the distress. g enets ' - then - "piticeedcd to lead to the house some observations on the dis. Mr. PEEL said that he had a motion for that night, to bring in r esited o m som e t t i at v e ht f h the t a bill for the consolidation and amendment of the law relative to. t i m n asa T tcd -e the Pwige k th a em P t i : re food Zod the an w d aPi elothel t . e " He 000 Forgery. Out of deference to the debate that had been adjourned positions of Mr. Alderman Waklnnan on a to that night, he begged to postpone it, and would endeavour to find 'former evening and maintained that the manufacturer becoming his own exporter --, was, so far from being a proof of distress, the an curly dcy for bringing it forward. natural mesh of improvement, which led to the disappearance of the Lord F. L. GOWER said, that cheeses against Sir Jonah Bar. middle me , an d a ansusgent demos . ad,. risk atten di ng , an & 'logien had been brought by the 18th report of the Commiesionees of e ig hteen ' months _ .., t . He finally stated that as the a jaicial In g tile Y itt tee/and. He was illaued " °dell thee th e appstment --- of a —" com — mtule y w ear oUld excise hopes - which parliament b dre t 29t cou h rae A f pril °‘ fac the ilita ho ti u ng se inqu shou ir ld wa; go into s in° cono ve li tha ttee, ton to T ta li ke urad" into 4 elkild d il . et tea t iIL- - he well " Weal both the eeighal moose aid the consideration those 'charges. DUITRICSIEII Or TAR COUNTRY. , Mr. T. H. B. ESTCOURT supported Me oeiginal motion. Mr. FERGUSON moved the resumption of t h e muonaned do., Sir HUSSEY VIVIAN did not deny that onusidorable dieteine I bate on the motion that the house resolve into a Committee on the existed ; but was persuaded that many of the statements of it were petitions of the people, complaining of dlstres4. greatly exaggesated. He onseetained as despair of the country ; bat The only of the day haring been reed, , on the contrary, felt convinced, that however serious the difficalties Mr. FERUCSON rose. He did not desire to maim an very might he wi th 'WI Et was a." , it would rise "Peri. to " II aIL ' * maicomplaints against the boo. mover, for cLa rg in g him and W ith "Wee W the low Picots some of The Causes of linos WWI% in ethers with lukewarmness in the cause of the people's di mness; ids opinion, sufficiently obvious. During the war our inanufac. but he must say, that *OM the line day of the maim, he bul l tame and mealbweal had a elloaoliolY of the markets. Now, /aw aken nothing but the greatest desire en the part ed an, bog' ems, they were obliged to enter into a competition with the foreign meentin g chase moneeted with t h e G oee n temat , ao H awn atanufactures and markets. Now, as one.fifth of our Indus. 0 the complaints of the people. Ins Majesty's Minissern,, try wee s ,"PleYei 111 she supply of foreign owohetat ewe ea * sincerely believed, were actuated by the strongest desire to, Poeteobjearnel between fifty and sixty millions, and as the prices j Newt to the complaints , and to afford remedy 1 and idler their _ _We in the foreign markets must govern our priced at 1 " c o n d o m and he se t hootiona prope t ed Is. moo& ft Ras d ate a a mean, be 'thought *me was little difficulty in amoonting for the them thus co state what ise - believed. He thought that it was low Flee& Among the causes caligned by various persons for right to state thus much in justice to them, and especially as t h e, _ ._ the . e ... _xilthy megy iliistrese were over production , superabundant papule,- vete he shoukl give this evening would be di ff erent hogs that which. Mlle 10 . 00 . Abel ' , Mae, iiiiildin t Mad she state of 'dm emitener. en doubt, lonia tit given by the ministers. lie &odd vote he V t . to . ...... Q.a. Pl adU ._ Cti.l 4 Ills only consequence , as its Paired to him , i the innendinom ; to have a commiatee ef the Weis *me ertmitl' 44 2 bee F luea ` lb i st _ s _ le " "la b° to throw a °ember al 'P eteene out (4 ' involve thrum is imerbniwable inquiries , in the o nehmie t o of A u d o n • awfwayanala ) to nnimpsasso alpiiiabeindist popuksion to a err. bushiest'. As to the distress, Ise lamented that it was so Wis. solo extent the henna might be said to be superabundant. But 1 itu tukik, sus* .4i very eitteneive ;but the (Waite ollhat Motets lIIVIO'cAIIt . bb .4E7. tieeltY to see the PaPaTatien MD*llllll4 by The 1 Females earned from Moo from 12.. to lbs. and some were paid as lcw as 10s. Od. 11s. And 12s. A man and a boy, or a woman and girl, were paid from 15.. to 20s. h the spinning factories, Carden received (from 13 to 14 yean) from se. Od. to be. N. (from 18 to 20) _ weans recommended on a recent occasion by an hon. gentleman, and he trusted that the house would never forget That a bold peasantry. their eoun.rf's pride, When once destroyed, could never be supplied." n,achinery, in his opinion, so far from producing the distress, must have greatly contributed to prevent its increase ; since it give em ployment to millions. who would be otherwise destitute of it. A great portion of what was considered among the middle classes to be distress arose, he was persuaded, out of the extraordinary change that had taken place in the habits of the people, who dulged in an extravagant expense, of which their forefathers never dreamt ; and who being now compelled to curtail that es. pease, felt the privation severely. The necessity under which they • were of discharging a number of their servants, had also added to the general difficulty. lie was far from thinkin. low prices an evil. If it were not for the low prices of hemp, ot tallow, and of all the necessaries of life, tens of thousands of rune would be thrown out of employment, and thousands of tons ot ship. ping would be laid up. As to free trade, he was convinced that I: had nothing to do with the distress; and he was happy to mak- • that avowal in the presence of the right hon member for Liverpool, as when the principles of free trade were originally discussed, he had expressed some apprehensions with respect to the remit of the!: application to the commerce ot this country. in his opinion, thereat • principle of free trade was this: that as long a.s any of the menu tact u - rers of the country produced a commodity for which there was an eta i.e demand in the home market-we might protect them by duties; but 11 , J , when they were obliged to go to a foreign market to sell their coin. motliry, the price must be regulated by the price at which the f 0 - reign manufacturers were able to bring the saute commodity into tine market. le was asked how could we go on with such low prices, and with such heavy taxes on agriculture ? He did not believe that those taxes bore especially on agriculture. Ile believed that they bore generally on the consumer; that they bore on the whole prs. pert, of England. (Hear.) He would advert shortly to the rz. medics which had been suggested for the existing state of things. In the first place, there was what had been einesl equitable ad justment. It would be the extreme of injustice to make any attempt at reducing the property of the fund-holder, and he trusted that no such attempt wou ld ever b e ma d e . Of :his, too, he was persuaded, that if a sponge could be applied to the Na. tional Debt to.morrow. the country would derive little or no benefit from the operation. The visits of the tax-gatherer would be ex changed far those of the parish overseer; and the population of our exchanges and markets would be transferred to our workhouses.-- The reduction of taxation was one of the remedies which had been insisted on. It was undoubtedly the duty of Ministers to :educe taxation as much as was consistent with the pub. llc service; and they had done that duty. But he was not one of those who fancied that any extraordinary relief could be derived from such kaource; and fie was one of those whs would be very sorry to see the principle of reduction carried to such an extent ea would compel us to disband our army, dismantle our navy, and close our arsenals and dockyards lie trust, d. to use the eloquent words of a late Right Honourable tlentleman, "that tit; Sovereign of this country would never he reduced to sit on a de. graded Throne." A change in the currency was another of the nostrums recommended; nostrums so numerous, that they reniind,ii him of some doggrel lines, with which he was familiar when at school " One doctor phylic'd him and purged ; A second bleeding strongly log', ; A third a tonic mixture tried ; Among them all—the patient died !" He had frequently heard of people being music-road ; but he be. lieved that some hon. gents. were curreney-mad. His view of the currency question was this :—that if, as had been asserted, the sub. !Laudon of gold for paper had produced a change of 23 per cent, in the price of commodities, that proved that the former price was arti. &tel. It was impossible to maintain a paper circulation while we kept up a commercial intercourse with foreign countries. We could not buy bread at home with paper, and cotton abroad with gold. (Hear.) If we were to return to paper to-morrow, we should speedily have two prices, a gold price and a paper price, as we had formerly ; even although the house should again adopt a resolution declaring that gold andlnotes were equivalent. lie was delighted, therefore, to hear his .tlajesty'a ministers declare that they had no intention of proposing any change in the currency. Agriculture and manufactures must flourish together. Although his particular interest did not lie in that way, yet certainly, if he were called upon to give a preponderance to either, he would throw his weight into die agricultural scale. But not conceiving that to be necessary, and being persuaded that no measure could be adopted the tendency of which would be materially beneficial to any interest, he must oppose the motion. Mr. LIDDELL said thatthe prayers of petitioners for remission of taxes had been complied with to some extent, and he trusted that the redaction which had already taken plats would be followed up in the course of another session by still further reductions, so as to give the fullest satisfaction to the public. He felt hound to support the motion for inquiry, with a view to the relief of the country. The hon. member for Bramber had stated that there was no less than five or six millions, is the shape of deposits, in the banks of the metropolis, which showed a large influx of the precious metals into this country. lodeed, it was impossible to doubt this fact, when the rate of exchange was referred to; but it was a fallacy to Mier from thence that there was plenty of money, and no distress. On the contrary, it appeared to prove that there was no pro fi table employment for capital, or that money would be embarked, either in agriculture or manufactures. With respect to the shipping in. tercet, k was in a very depressed state, and the spring freights had just opened one-ninth less than they were last year, being 401. in. stead of 451. which was at the rate of 11001. for 300 tons. The right hon. 'gentleman (Mr. Courtenay), when speaking on a former even ing, had short when be aura to speak of the currency, b ut he (Mr. laden) wished that he had stated what was the amount of the difficulty and pressure which government had attributed to the alteration of the currency. He thought it worthy of inquiry whe ther the currency could not be replaced by a judicious extension of the paper money; and he was glad that government was about to give every facility to a system of banking calculated to restore the PlibliC confidence.... Mr. COURTE NAY maintained the consistency of Government in all their arguments relative to the distress, in opposition to what had fallen from the Hon. Member of Newark. He thought the effect of the measures of 1819 were greatly exaggerated, for effects wise attributed to them which ought to have been referred to othet causes, such as bad seasons and bad harvests. The Hon. Member for Newark thought that had the issue of small notes been con. tinned the present distress might be avoided. Did HOD. (fen. • dernen mean to say that the present circulation was not equal to the wants of the country ? (Hear, bear.) lie would b e g l a d to see a more secure system established ; but the more secure the system of banking was made, the more effectually would an issue of small notes under such a system drive the gold out of the country. (Hear.) The Honourable Member for New. ark denounced the system of free trade ; but unless he was more specific, and brought forward measures founded on his theory, he shil denounce him to the country as a betrayer of his trust, or as a wordyman without meaning. (Great laughter.) There was nothing done for the putpae of giving freedom to trade that had not com pletely succeeded. (Hear, hear.) lie had two years ago expressed the state of his mind on this subject in terms he supposed he should never hear the last of. (A laugh.) He would now say, that after the most careful examination of the subject, he was completely convinced of the beneficial effects of the system introduced by the right honourable member for Liverpool. (Hear, hest, hear.) Ile was convinced it was our interest to purch ase our corn. modities where we could have Mem cheapest ; and whether we paid for them in money or in geode the effect would be the same, as we mild only purchase the money with our goods. If the hon. member for Newark would undertake to prove to the committee that our free trade enabled us to obtain the goods of foreigners by any other means than by giving our own in return, he would vote for the committee ; but it was clear that the teal object of the com mittee was to introduce a re-issue oilman notes; he should therefore oppose the modes. Sir RICHARD VYVYAN said, there were dangers greater than even those of war Mat might aflbet a country ; and such he cp. migh be t our state. (Hear.) He Could not but express L ebill =tiea She the Chancellor of the Exchequer had admitted thattheilletethe of the country was general, and had proposed the rednedsketomatien was amount of three millions. He and the:w ealth whoa Matted were called ultras, but without muse. The present ersesehm was, what was the general state of the counary ? Did distress refit ? That was now admitted. This distress washy many attributed to surplus population. He denied that there was any real surplus population. (Hear, bear.) Certainly, with the present state of the poor laws, and large farms and taxation, there might be want of employment: and with a continuance of the same system, the time might tom when half the present por ula lion would be deemed a surplus ;population. The right hon. gent. led said that he was not now whit he was two years ago, when *lithe subject of free trade his mind was a sheet of bleat paper. Hehad no confidence In the presem minigets, sadist If the W nig, came into power and carried on the government according to th e principles he approved of, th ey should have his support ta rest laugh.) The bon. member for London had said he did bet km* the cause of the present distress, but that the landlords must lower tbetr rents. (bear, hear, hear.) This ignorance of the cause of the present distre ss wat the strongest waste for peeing Into a commtnete to inquire lam the real cause. &legal& lbe - --z- -ever, ready refer a .elect tototnittee to a eolowitiee of the vita house. h hod been staid that the prevent -distress woes coma bi *ltesinsate artesersaey, tad so unjust war.' He believed • the atonal c tire ootratry to be mainly ottethotable lar•tbs wse i but A thoitibt the wet w a s retesseorp to preserve the lestitstione of the carittr ai —.(Heat, hear, ltese.)-11v tbovtobt tbe do lor, was bow Mess tattle Mate st Ititaaose Waled lb do Tam" &vols. lion. Was ttoollient if a *at were la take place, 1