Star. — London, England, 1813-03-09 00:00:00

11111 OW Is / A PARLIAMENIART PROCEEDINGS. HOUSE OF LORDS, MARCH 8. Their Lordships met at half past two o'clock, according toad ' ournment, in a Committee of Privileges, on the Banbury Peer age; when the Duke of Sussex, Earl MoIRA, and Lord Hor.- ( pa ND, arguAl eti bee all of the Claimant ; and the Duke of NOR• - 's out, Lord ELIA XOVIUGH, and Lord Reoesnate, on the I /other side, at Treat length. The furtlun considera:ion was then Vo3tponed till to-morrow, and their I.urdships adjourned. $ Prayers bf....0g read, and the House formed. The Duke of KEN r presented a Petition from the Ship-buil ;der& on the river ['lames, against the We of Asiatic Ships in the s port of London. Lord koI.LE presented a Petition from the Master, Wardens, land Corporation of Exeter, against the renewal of the East-India Company's Char. er. 1 Earl it ITZWILLIAM preseoted a Petition to the same' effect from the Merchants, Traders, and others, of Brdidford, in the :County of York; another from the Ship-owners and Mer ** chants of Kingston.upon-Hull - ; a third from the Dock Corn pony of Kingston; a fourth from the Merchants and Inhabi tants of Leeds ; and a fifth frost) the Merchants and Traders of • Bridlington. • • The Marquis of DOUGLAS presented three Petitions of the same tenor—the first from the Chamber of Commerce in Gies ': gow, the second from the "Ira les' House, and the third from the Merchants' House of the same place. The Duke of MONTROSE presented a Petition from the Ship-owners of London in favour of the East-India Company. The Duke of SUSSEX presented a Petition from the Roman Catholics of the County of Wexford, and another from the same descrietion of persons ni the County of Sligo, praying for a re peal of the restrictive Statutes against them. His Royal High ness took occasion to retnark, that in presenting those Petitions, ' be was merely discharging hit duty as a Peer of Parliament, and ' should have thought himself bound to present any Petition of a lcontrary tendency, had it been in like manner committed to him.. • The Marquis of LANSDOWNE presented a Petition from the Catholic Inhabitants of Limerick, praying for a repeal of all : the disabling Statutes which remained against the Catholic hotly. Nis Lordship took occasion to state, in allusion to what he had beard both within and without the walls of Parliament, some • thing of what the Catholics did nit want. '1 hey did not want to be admitted as a body to any political privileges ; bnt they thought it - fit that, individually, they should be permitted, in common with their fellow-subjects, to share the honourable and legitimate rewards which the Constitution had decreed to them as their right. They did not ask any thing which could be sup posed to militate against the Established Church; but, on the Contrary, they were ready to support the political establishment of the cointry to the urnic.st of their zeal and ability. The L.ernish Miners' Enlistment, the Excise Salt, and the Re venue Debtors' Bills, were read the second time. Judgment in the Apperl Cause " 'the Governor and Direc ters of the Batik of Scotland Watson," was deferred to next j Thursday. Mr. Sri cc a, from Chelsea Hospital, presented Papers, which Were ordered to lie on the table. Their Lordships then adjourned till to-morrow. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Mr. DUNDAS posponed bit notice, which stood for to-days relative to the Navy Estimates, till Friday next. te Mr. ELLIOTT brought up the Repor t of the Committee of toe Carmarthenshire Election Petition. The substance ef the Report was, that the Sitting Members were duly elected; but that the Petition was riot of a frivolaus or vexatious nature. Mr. ABERCROMBIE having moved the second reading of the Covent-Girden Market Bill, Sir F. BULtbk:ll' objected to it, stating grounds of dissatis faction entertained by persons interested, and expressed a wish that the second read.ug might be postponed. Mr..ABERCROMBIE conceived, 'that the Bill having been • presented last Session, any person interested in it had time suffi cient to have advanced their objections at a time when no incon venience could arise to the publ,c, as might now be the case, to , morrow being the last day fir presenting private Bills. However, be shoal}, comply with the wish of the Hon. Baronet, and post pone the seco..d reading till to-morrow ; at the same time however remarking, that he did not du so in consequence of the smallest doubt subsisting in Ifs mind as to the propriety of the several clauses. Sir T.'SUTTON presented a Petition against the Covent barden Market Bill, irons certain persons interested. Sir G. CLERK postponed his notice respecting Mail Coaches. The :lII:AKER informed the House, that two Election Peti tions, the Ballots for Committees on which stood for to-mot row, bad been withdrawn; that two Ballots were fixed for next Thtirs day, two for tomorrow se'nuight, and two for Thursday se'n niOst. Lord CASTLE REAL H moved, that the names of such Members as might be absent from the Ballot on Thursday next, should be taken down, reported on a future day, and that the Serjeant at Arms shoidd be ordered to take them into custody. ..--Agreed tain lecterns relative to Chelsea Hospital were presented by the proper officer, and ordered to lie upon the Table. Mr. MILES presented t i e annual Accounts of 'the African. Company.—Ordered to lie upon the I able. Ihe -Grand and Putty Larceny Bill was read a second time, on the motion of Mr. KEN RICK, and ordered to be committed on Tuesday se'imight. The second reading of the Insolvent Debtors' Bill was post poned till Monday next. The English Local Militia Bill went through a Committee of the whole House, in which the several clauses were read, and ageued to; and the House having resumed, the Report of the Committee was ordered to be received to-morrow. 'par! Scotch Local Mil ti s Bill also went throui;s a Committee. .--Report to-morrow. The Reports of the Cr-nmisiioner; s 4 Inland Islavigati it in Ire land, since the 7th of October, 1812, Made to Ms Grace the Lord Lieutenant, and the et:re.posid,:ace which had passed since that period, Lc wecn the Royal Canal Company and his Ma jesty's Government, in heard, Laving been moved for, they were bt vt) o ht up by hlr. Jolsibtoee, lions the office of the trial iecretat The Keport of the Cot =Wee of Supply was brought up,read, and the several Resolutions agreed to. • The Mutiny and Desertion Bill was read a Erst time, and or der.-:d to be read a se.ond tints to-morrow. ARMY 14TIMATt4.. The House having, - on the !notion of Lord PAL ' MOSTON, resolved itself into a Committee of Supplga in order that his Lordship might refer to it the Army EStiM4ISS, his ;, l oydr ! hip teed stated, that ha conceived there was no necessity for occupying any great proportion of the time of the House, as the kstiinales he had tospresent were but slightly altered from thote of the last year, in iOnsequence of its not having . been found necessary to Make any ' material alteration 'in the military system. The whole addition made to the army amounted to twelve thousand, some tidd hundred - men, and the addi tional charges constituted a sum pf £:399,000; of this aggregate, nine thousand six hundred men had been added to the Land Forces, and the amount ot additional charge thence arising *at £299;000. — Nine hundred and seventy men had been added to the Household troops, the charge resulting from this additfon 'was aE 4 38,900; the d:saibution .of t he men was into two new twops ot 'Life Guards, and an increase of ten rntik and file to each company of the Foot Guards. •. The number of 'men by whom the dragoons had been increased toss 419, and the charge on the addition ,tom;i€9 the At ? ater part of the men badfieen distributed into the '4lit and 25d regibaents of fight dragoons. The timber of meta destined* to rein eit the tegitueuts• serving id India was five thou _ . to £19,000. To the ions; 'anti other troops ion of men was two • Pt these awn part . in the waggon train, !cessary to replica oiie the army serving in the part two regiments fencibles 114(1 been formed in North America. In the miscellaneous charges, an increas e of £151,000 was owing to the improvements in the recruiting system, both on the English and Irish establish ments, by which our success in raising men in both countries had fully answered the expectations of those who had projected the improvements of this access: seB,ooo had arisen on the British, and 47,000 on the Irish establishments ; but the gross increase of £151,000, had been reduced to £61,000, in con sequence of the regimental establishments being higher this year than the last, which circumstance admitted of a minder being made for other purposes, and other funds being made to contribute to the di minution of this estimate. In the embodied militia, there had been but two men added, and there had been a decrease of 417,000; a further diminution of charge had resulted from the discontinuance of a full General on the Staff ' • and with respect to the Military and Medical Staff, there was a diminution of 415,000 in the aggregate of the Army Esti mates, a sum of that amount formerly charged in them for the purpose alluded to, having been trans ferred to another fund. A charge which was now for the first time introduced into the estimates, was for the field equipage of the Commander of the forces; the expences of this had been hitherto de frayed out of the Army extraordinaries ; the total increase connected with itStaff charges, amounted to £41,000. The next charge was £l,OOO, which arose from some Officers of veteran battalions having been permitted to retire on full pay. There was a further charge of 4600, the amount of the salary of an ad ditional Military Secretary, whose services had been found necessary in the office of the Commander-in- Chief. The amount of the additional charges con nected with the Pay-office was 434,000. In the Adjutant-General's saffice there was an increase of 4950, in consequence of that Officer hiving been permitted to receive his Staff pay, that which he had hitherto received having been deemed inadequate to his rank. An indulgence of a similar nature had been granted to the Deputy Quarter-Master-General; but in this office, notwithstanding,there was a decrease of charge of 4500, in consequence of a smaller num ' ber of maps and plans having been found necessary for the service of the current year. On the fund of the Chelsea and Kilmainham pensioners, there was a diminution of £1,300, and the number of mar riagek and deaths affecting the Widows' Pension List, having been greater than usual in the course of the last year, there was also a diminution of charge re sulting from that circumstance to the amount of £1,250. The additional charge arising from the various expenses coincident with volunteer corps were £5,000. To the foreign corps in the British service there had been an addition of two thousand five hundred men, the charge arising from which was 490,000. It had been deemed expedient to form two Veteran Battalions of such persons as had been discharged from the effective foreign corps as inefficient. Persons of this description, the Go vernment had been in the habit of sending to their respective countries ; but some of those who had been so disposed of, having, on their arrival, been treated with much severity, it was conceived, that to expose them IQ suffering after serving in the ranks of our army would be injurious to the character of the country ; and it having been in con. Sequence deter Mined on that a provision should be made for them, it was thought better to form them into separate corps than to distribute them among our native Veteran Battalions. The next charge, arose from a number of desertions having lately taken place from the French army to the persons who had thus thrown themselves on our protection. It was impossible to refuse it; they had been distributed into several small corps, this being thought more eli gible than to form them into one large *body. The number of the men thus disposed of was two thou sand five hundred and eighty-four, and the charge connected with the establishment was 490,000. There was a charge on account of the Royal Military .College of £lB,OOO. The charge last year was but £BBOO. The increase this year. was owhsg to its having been found necessary to fit up a house for the reception of the' senior tlepartment of the establish ment, when the junior department thereof was trans ferred to Sandhurst, in order that they might not be too far distant from each other. Besides this, there was a charge of 40900 for a 4th company of Cadets. The additional charge, on account of the Royal Mi litary Asylum, was 416,000. The increase in the Irish Barrack Department was 49500 arising from the increased in ices of fuel, candles, and other articles furnished to the troops. In the Commissariat there was an additional charge for forage, and articles sup plied by , that department, amounting to £2BOO. A diminution of charge had resulted from the death of Mr. Lewis, Secretary at War, amounting to 4541. On the whole addition of £399,000 there was a re duction to 488,000. Of the increase of men, amount ing in the whole to twelie thousand two hundred, two thotisand were British, four hundred Spanish, who had been taken into our service in the Peninsula, and the remainder foreigners of different descriptions. He had now to state, that the Recruiting Service was ranch more productive than it had been heretofore. This, perhaps, some persons might be disposed to at tribute to the commercial distress in which we had been involved, but from this opinion he had a right tl dissent, as he could shew an adequate cause for the effect, It had been hitherto the practice to send young Officer; who had just joined their regiments on the recruiting service, and in fact, the duty was as signed to th: m in a great degree as leave of absence, which it virtually was ; but last year a new system was tried, older officers were sent upon the service, at first in one district, as an experiment, then to four, and it was now hi contemplation, in consequence of the desired success resulting to make the system ge neral. The number of men raised in the year by or dinary recruiting for the regular army was 14,433, being considerably greater than last year. For the three dr fo4 last years the number of men so raised had be.:n progressively increasing from nine thousand to ten, from ten to eleven, at which it stood last year, and from eleven to the number which he had just stated. The number of men who had volunteered from the militia into the line was 9,.500 ; so thlt the total addition to the regular army was 24,335. It was a delightful contemplation to see that as the mi littry service beCame more extensive,' the military spirit and ardour of the people became more -effec tually roused, and that the progress of voluntary en _ Peninsula; and of another of ;:n"d,".th“e"-chfug-e—a-m- nuntin 7 4 tc Venciblt.. corps l Vt.teran baitali< of that description, the additii th .usandi the• charge had gone t foirn rew trpop by %%limb it had been found ut , c load begin sent out to joie th • iistment kept pace with the demands of the country. Adverting to the casualties, he expliined some ap parent *consistences oa that subject, which had been occasioned by the returns of the effective force of last year having been made some months before the con clusion of the year ; and stated that the actualcasual ties, including those of all the foreign troops in British pay, amounted to 89,760 men. The Noble Lord then concluded by moving his first resolution. Captain BENNETT said, that the ordinary re cruiting in 1807 produced 19,000 ; in the quarter be fore Mr. Windham's plan was broke in upon, 11,000; and in the quarter afterwards. 9000. In 1809, it produced 11,700; in 1811, 114,000; in 1812, 14,400. He objected to the present mode; and contended for the great superiority of the plan of . the late Mr. Windham, which was changed, and the army left at the mercy of the Noble Lord. Many casualties were yet to be reported from abroad. He then entered into various calculations, to prove the loss of the army must be greater than was stated,—There was a Board for directing the clothing of the army; and he wished to know who were its active members—who were the military arbiters elegantiaruar ? Who were the per sons who devoted their time and talents to the mode of sticking ostrich feathers into Generals' hats, and fastening tags on their shoulders, and arranging the other articles of dress ? He desired to know who ' were the military milliners ? He remembered to have seen various body guards abroad; but had known nothing like this Board, which certainly was of no great assistance to the campaign. The unfor tunate Guards were ordered to be sent abroad —did any Gentleman see them before they went ? Nothing could he more absgrd than these military changes— they were worthy of Grimaldi or M. D'Egville : adorned as they were in all their pantomimic pomp and feathers, they looked like the Rinaldos of an epic poem. It might be said, that fine troops at home were destroyed, and ladd troops sent abroad. The time that had politically been called a new era was also a new era with the army. There was a Cavalry Clothing Board appointed, with the Duke of Cum berland at itchead, whose resolves were memorialized against by General Officers as absurd, and one of whose regulations was called 46 inflicting a cap on the cavalry. One leading proposition was to deprive the dragoon of his boots; but the Duke of York afterwards cancelled the order, and dissolved the Board. Then came another Board under Lord Har rington, rather more meritorious. As the former one would take away the dragoon's boots, so the latter would deprive him of his breeches. Laughable as this seemed, it was the fact : the heavy dragoon was to have white worsted pantaloons, (4 laagh,) and on home service blue worsted web pantaloons ! (Afar.) These changes increased the colonel of a regiment's profits £7OO a year ; though the men would Ise worse off by JEW. A great expence was likewise to be incurred by the saddle ! cloths, to please some idle, trumpery, paltry, and contemptible tette ; and thi s was to be provided for qut of savings, by introducing the worsted pantaloons. Allowances were to be made to Colonels, who were to provide arid keep up the muffs and other articles of dress. He objected to the enormous expence of these things. An officer's jacket cost him 428, his pelisse se2l, and his panta loons £4 ; his sword, cap, belt, tic. £6O ; the horse furniture came to eighteen guineas. Altogether; the expence was £l46—(hear, hear.) This system in volved the officers of our army in difsctaties, and often conducted them to a prison. A Mrismott, whose name we did not learn, raid ! that the real number added to the army was only 22,000, and the real loss 29,000. From the Gazettes, we might see that a greater proportion of British troops had been killed than of foreign : one third of our addition to the army, however, was in foreigners. During the last three months . the Noble Lord had said the loss was 4000 ; yet our Gazettes made it 'only 1500. Why not publish fairly ?—(Hear, hear.) The country was not afraid of looking at its dangers. The loss was thus two or three times greater than was supposed.—(Hear, hear.)—lt would h ave been more satisfactory if the Noble Lord had proposed some plan to diminish the expence. The numbers raised had been raised by defacing the militia. We had a better description both of men and horses for the co ven); than other nations ; yet we were only superior on plain ground. He was not anxious for peace by disgraCeful concessions ; but when it did come, our army, of course, must be diminished. The war in the Peninsula was the field for making good officers ; but t tholigh . gteat operations were to be seen there , we had ,few who knew properly how to apply the right prin ciples to military ;noyements. The senior depart. ment of our military education ought to be extended for the forMation of more skilful officers. Mr. HUSKISSON said, his Right Hon. Friend the Chancellor of 'the Exchequer having given to the House a" plan of fmanee, he should not now enter upon that subject; but he must he allowed to say, that it we proceeded for the next four years as we had done during the last four, we Might reduce ourselves to a situation from which we slifoßld find it impossible to extricate ourselves. With respect to the estimates, he was sorry to see any increase in them; and previous to going into them partittilarly, he must Advcrt to the circumstance of sending Out the Life Guards to the Peninsula. He was not himself adequate to judge on military subjects, biit he had been told that these, although the best adapted of any troops in our em ploy for hOme sentiCe ' and for assisting the Police, were not the fittest to be sent 0 the Peninsula. He also blamed the delay which had taken place in, sending these troops. Lord Wellington, immediately after the battle of Salamanca, in July, requested re iuforcements of cavalry ; these troops received orders to prepare in August, but did not quit this country till October, and he believed did not join his Lord ship till last month, A sufficient reason why foreign cavalry ought to be sent abroad was, that of their behaving on all occasions with the greatest gallantry, and the cavalry kept for home service ought always to be Eng lish. Ile had last year objected strongly to the enormous sums proposed for building barracks for these troops, and that proposition was fortunately abandoned. He now must object to the very nume rous staff unnecessarily employed at this time at home. The Generals and other staff offh:trs now in the country were as numerous as they had been in 1809, when double the number of troops were at home ; and he hoped the Ministers would take this most unnecessary expence into consideration ; and make a retrenchthent in every 'thing that was no wauted. We were at this moment of apparent secu- 'fay, incurring all the eapences of that period where we were threatened by an invasion. There were Go netals now holding high commands in England, and he wished any one would shew him where the troops are which they command. He saw in the present - Estimates a sum of £lO,OOO fir the repair of the Horse Guards. He could not see any cause fur this expellee, and he wished the items had been more specifically pointed opt. There was another sum of ar209,000 for Volunteer Corps. Now, since the establishment of the Local Militia, he saw no neces sity for any Volunteers who could not pay their own espences. Many corps were only nmstittapy kept up, and many persons kept their names enrolled in corps merely for the purpose of escaping the ballot.—(lfres:s Arer).—Out of the sum in question, 414,000 war given to Inspectors of Volunteer Corps, a set of Officers for whom ho saw not the slightest necessity. When all the people of the country, alive to its dan. gers, were entering into Volunteer Corps, and whea these Corps were in full numbers and spirit, there were no such inspectors ; and why should the country be now hurthened with an expense for such. Officers 4 very great and favourable change had taken place in the state of Europe within the last six rptunlis ; and he did not see any reason for calling out the Lo cal-Militia, when all apprehension of danger was re. moved. The calling out these men was nut only at heavy burthen on the country, but did very serious evil to the labour in the agricultural districts. With out impairing this source of defence, and without doing away the Volunteer system, we ought to make a very great retrenchment, which would assist us greatly in our offensive operations—the only opera tions we ought now to attend to. Mr.IjILEYADDINGTON differed totally from his Hon. Friend, with respect to the calling out of the Local M":tia. Three s foerths of the - re had neves been assembled, and it would he absurd not to give time both to the Officers and to the men to know each other. To do justice to the system, it ought to be fostered and encouraged in times of absence from all danger, in order to render it efficient in the hour of peril : and he should beg leave to maintain that it Was no solid argument against the Local Militia to say, it ought not to be kept up and' improved, be: cause its seryices were not actually w4eted. The ob ject Government and the country had in view was, to render it fit for the pressure of illy exigency, whenevet real danger might threaten our internal security. Mr. FREEMANTLE animadverted upon the vast addition of expense caused by the employment of the Horse Guards 'on foreign service. The loss incurred by 913 men in that instance was not less than £38,000. With respect to the recruiting system, he Was authorised in concluding, that as 14,000 recruits only had been obtained for £540,000, each of them cost 834 per man. He could not suppress his sur prise at finding, from 'the papers on the table, that General Delancey was still employed, although hi had been dismissed from his office of Barrack:Master General, and that he continued to possess a salary ot 4'2,075 per mutts). In speaking . of the Military College, he wished to do every justice to that excel lent establishment. The plan was entitled to his 1 best encomium, and the general execution of the plan deserved his warmest praise', Yet in some parts of the internal arrangement, he had from his own experience remarked some defects. He had to notice one in particular. There was certainly top much fuel, and two hundred acres were employed at an expeece of £l,OOO. This would appear the more extraordinary, when the late improvements in this ma. terial article were taken into due consideration. In 1804 the issues for the army were al millions tee. whereas now *they are 25 millions, without sinjconsi derable addition to the force: As the estimates were thus perpetually increasing, he thought it the duty of the house to look narrowly into there. Mr. CREEVEX said, that there was one pert of the estimates upon which he meant to divide the Corn• mittee, and which he would again bring forward in the House when the Resolutions should be diicussed. An excess had been stated ut 04,000 in the depart ment of the Paymaster of the Forces. Now he'should wish to make a permanent saving mu this department of 112500 yearly, by flinging one of die ')oint-paye masters and his Deputy o v erboard. (4l kn . 'He would rest his motion on the Report of the Finance Committee in 1810, who recommended the abolition of one of those offices of Paymaster as a sinecure.— Mr. Long, in his evidence before that Committee, ad. milted that Lord C. Somserset had a salary demo a-year, and his Deputy 8500; that his Lordship in terfered but little, and that his Deputy was fame times out of England for a considerable time, with out the public business sustaining any loss. The situa tion which Lord C. Somerset held was, as he con ceived, a complete sinecure, which the Finance Com mittee had very properly recommended to be abo lished. His Lordship was besides being Paymaster, one of the Generals of Districts, whom he was him self to pay. His district too, was something like a sinecure, tor there were four or five General Officers there, and but very few men. He should• proceed in the same manner upon that occasion, as had been done in the case of Colonel M'Mahon, although there was less difficulty in the present case, as this office was not secured by a patent, but simply held at the pleasure of the Crown. Lod C. 'SOMERSET thought that the course which the Hon. Gentleman proposed to pursue, was altogether premature, if not entirely novel, inasmuch as a bill was eoW in its progress through the House grounded upon that report ot the Finance Committee. tie did not conceive that the public could gain any permanent advantage from the proposed abolition of one of tho ()Rites of Paymaster, for in that case the law would give to the single paymaster the same sa lary which was now divided between the two Joint paymasters. The salary of the Paymaster of the Forces had been for A very long time settled at four thousand pounds per annum, and was on the same footing' as the *Treasurer ot the Navy. In 1783, when this sum seas established as the proper salary by Mr. Burke's Bill, the issues of money from the Paymaster's Office was little more than seven mil lions; whereas in the last year it was about twenty nine millions. lf, then, £4OOO per annum was con sidered thirty yeaVs ago to be the proper saiai ) for this office, it could hardly be supposed that it ought to be' diminished now when the respinsitmity was much increased. In the year 1806, when the Noble Lords, who were then Joint-paymasters, belonged to that Administration with which the Hon. Gentleman was himself connected, he had nut then thought it ~~ V