Star. — London, England, 1829-06-03 00:00:00

lkit e Mr, it works deserved's!, for the empire at vioilui destructively for the country and its coloffies--it worts against every one of the great inte• mu of this country, against the welt being of its trade, its nsamtfactares, its agriculture. Majorities (and ac cording to my views of the question which have been carried) fatal majorities, in this House, have been largely swelled by means of this influence; and what is most mischievous is, the existence of such a system degrades this House in the estimation of the people. The re-, presentative body loses tbe respect and confidence of the body represented. It is to this cause, Sir, that the indignation of the country ascribes the success of the odious principle of free trade—a principle which, if persisted in, will spread the desolation still farther which so f ear fully prevails, and is now preuing so severely on our commerce. To this again is to be attributed the largeness of that majority which lately overthrew the constitution, and proved to the people how very little their prayers were heard or heeded. How, then, sir, is a system so mischievous to be mended? Which ore the most pressing of its evils? Where should the proposed reform begin? Unquestionably in the extinction of decayed boroughs. Whether this should be effected by compensation or without compensation, and whether we should extend our inquiries to self elected Corporate Bodies possessing the rights of fran chise, will be matter for future discussion; but, Sir, vital interests are in the mean while at stake. The nation knows and feels it to be so ; it feels it in all the ramifi cations of its commerce; in all the elements of its wealth end greatness; it feels it in the very husbandry of its toll, the staple of its power and prosperity ; and it feels, too, that it is not sate to trust to burgage tenures and proprietary influence what should be confined to a chaster representation. The disease, no doubt, is of long standing, but the seat of it has been well ascer tained, and it will require no great skill in political anatomy to remove the parts affected. They cannot be cured—they must be cut away— immeetesteie menus Ease recideneum, ire pars mincers ashater." Entertaining therefore, Sir, these sentiments, and im pressed with a strong feeling that in the existing etr cumstances c.f the country (which it would be idle for any man to seek to disguise from himself) it would be expedient for this House not to separate without evinc ing some disposition to take this question into its consi deration at no distant period, I have thought it my duty, at this eleventh hour, to direct the attention of Hon. Members to it; and I shall conclude my present obser vations by conjuring them to bear in mind the ever memorable words of Burke, as cited by Mr. Fox. " presentation (not the unreal mockery, but the efficient substance of representation) is the sovereign remedy for every dis irder, the infallible security against popular discontent." His Lordship concluded with moving Re solutions declaratory of the impropriety of the smaller boroughs sending Members to Parliament. )Zr. O'NEILL seconded the motion. Mr. BENET f said that he considered the question of Reform as paramount to all others. They might be j told that this question was brought forward at a late period of the Session; but so had other questions, and that more with a view to give notice that at some future period such subjects would be brought forward, than with any expectation of any immediate result. These Resolutions, he supposed, were to be looked upon as a pledge that the Noble Marquis would himself, in the next Session of Parliament, bring forward the subject of Parliamentary Reform; and be trusted, from the li beral measures lately taken by the Government, that •the measure would be more favourably entertained than heretofore it had been. The statement of facts con tained in the Resolutions of the Noble Marquis could not be gainsayed, for its correctness had been repeatedly proved at the bar of that House. He did not entertain any wild ideas of reform; all be wanted was to see the wishes of the people fairly represented in that House. Mr. HUME said, that no man who knew any thing of what had been advanced io evidence at the bar of that House or in Committee could doubt the truth of the assertions in the resolutions. If there were any man who did not know of that evidence, that man might vote against the resolutions, which, he trusted, would be pressed to a division. The facts appeared to him so plain, that he was anxious to hear W there was any Hon. Member who would controvert them in - his place. Mr. Secretary PEEL said that he was not prepared to affirm these resolutions, and therefore, in obedience to the challenge of the Hon. Member, he rose to oppose their adoption. Though he differed from the Noble Lord who had moved them, he must admit both the temper and ability with which he had brought the sub ject under the consideration of the House; and although his Majesty's Government bad the misfortune to meet with his disapprobation in this particular occasion, he could assure the Noble Lord that that citcumstancd did not in the slighte.t degree abate the satisfaction with which he had beard the descendant of an illustrious warrior, and the representative of a noble house, vie& sate and support his •pinions with an ability worthy . the cause he had undertaken and the name ire bore.— Whatever might be the opinions of iniiividual Members upon the princi, le of the question now brought before them, it was a question of such vast magnitude that they must all agree that it ought to have ample de• liberation, and he submitted at a time when, if they were prepared to form abstract resolutions on prin ciples, they should also be prepared to follow up those resolutions with some practical measure for the en to' cement of any principle they might have , affirmed .to bessound. He thought, therefore, that the Noble Lord, in moving' these resolutions, did so rather with a view to give notice of . his intention of submitting a proposition relative to Parliamentary reform to them early in the nest Session of Parliament, than with any hope that at this period of the Session the House would be prepared to affirm these resolutions. He could not think the Noble Lord meant otherwise when he remem bered that the business of the House was so nearly brought to a close that he believed within two days it would allow them to adjourn. Would the House, without inquiry, consent to resolutions which branded with disgrace a considerable portion of the represen tative system ? The Noble Lord, not content with wishing to put an end to the abuses of the representa tive system, absolutely affirmed, in his second resolu tion, that the existence of small boroughs was disgrace ful to the character of the House. Now, if he (Mr. reel) were prepared to admit the fact, still he should say, do not proceed to such a condemnation without having ready some practical measure which would ob tain the confidence of the people. Was it for the Noble Lord to overturn the confidence of the people in the great part of the representative system, and to propose no re. asedy for the evils of which be complained. lint he (Mr. Peel) was not prepared to affirm resolutions which as serted that in small boroughs, where the electors were few, Members were returned by bribery. There was no evidence before them to sustain that assertion. He mild not draw say distinction between the purity of a numerous body of electors and that of a smaller num ber. Whether a lame or a small number of electors were the more easily bribed was a question on which different opinions might be entertained; but at any rate it ought not to be asserted without evidence that small boroughs were all to be botight. He believed the tact in many cases to be the reverse, for there were some boroughs where there were few electors, but who had honestly and fairly fulfilled the trust reposed in them. —He was nor, therefore, prepared, without proof, to affirm the resolution. Besides, the Noble Lord was not prepared to say what was to be done with the franchise of the small boroughs. Now he must say, that whenever the House came to a resolution to forfeit the franchise of the small boroughs, it ought at the same time to be prepared to dispose of them. The Hon. Member who seconded the motion said that be was prepared to admit the principle of pecuniary compensation. Now this involved questions of so much importance that he thought the House had a right to request some more clear exposition of the practical mode in which the Honourable Member pro posed to carry the resolution into effect. By negativing the resolutions of the Noble Lord, the opportunity would not be lost of discussing the question of Reform next Parliament, as this very night it happened a Noble Lord had given notice that, in the next Session of Parliament, he should propose to give the elect i v e franchise to three of the most important towns in England, namely, Birmingham, Manchester, and Leeds, so that there was no chance of their escaping next year a discussion on the question of Reform. The Noble Lord tested his claim to the support of the House mainly upon the assent which the House had given to two great questions. He first said, that, by the aid of the degraded small boroughs, the principles of that abominable system of free trade had been affirmed by that House, and, secondly, that also by their assist- , truce, contrary to the sense of a great majority of the country, the question of Roman Catholic Emancipation had been carried. Now be (Mr. Secretary Peel) appre• hended that these were not grounds on which many— looking at the majority with which the last question had been carried—would be inclined to support the Honourable Member, however well inclined they l might be to support the question of reform singly. He (Mr. Secretary Peel) objected, then, to these Reso• lotions. on account of the period of the Session, and the small attendance of Members, and he considered it to be hardly treating a subject of this importance with the consideration it deserved. He objected to them too on the ground of the injustice of condemning generally small boroughs on account of their having few electors, and he trusted that those who represented small boroughs were not prepared to assert that corruption must exist in them more than in a populous city or county. Being prepared when the question should arise, to deliver his sentiments upon the general question of Parliamentary Reform wheo the proper period arrived for so doing, but thinking the present period an unfit one, and not considering himself justified in making such serious charges as the Resolutions did, without proof. be should withhold his support from the Resolution. Mr. HOBHOUSE said that if compelled to agree to these resolutions upon the grounds only taken by the Noble Mover, he should withhold his assent altogether, as he would rather take that House, with religious liberty, than have a new one without it. With re spect to the other ground, he would rather have what intelligence was now sent to that House than any which would oppose the principles of free trade. He (Mr. Hobbouse) would always be at his post as the champion of reform, whatever might be the motives of those who brought a motion for it forward. He could sot forbear calling the attention of the House to the great change, not to him unforeseen, of tone in the language of Ministers on this question—(Hear, hear). He recollected that upon one occasion the Right Hon. Gentleman who preceded the-Right Hon. Secretary of State for the Home Department in the seat he now oc cupied, said that the question of Parliamentasy,Beform, instead of being received with something like civility, u.ed to be considered as utterly insignificant. The Right Hon. Secretary for the Home Department ob jected to these Resolutions on account of the late period of the Session and the small attendance of Members. Now for his part he thought, considering that the ques tion of Parliamentary Reform was in discussion, there was a very full attendance. He remembered once, when he had the misfortune to be making a speech on the subject. that the late Mr. Canning held up his fingers to show him that there were only twenty-five Members in the House. The Right Hon. Gentleman bad also objected to the resolutions, though in a very modified manner, on the ground that the Noble Mar tial had proposed no remedy for the evils he set forth. Now, the Noble Marquis only requested to have an in quiry, and it was not necessary, in his view of the ques tion, to propose a remedy. He had.told the House that he objected to these smith boroughs, as they must necee: sarily be under objectionable controul. Now, if the re s o. lotions were carried, and an inquiry granted, the task of the Noble Lord would be easy. for he would only ha ton to propose that these boroughs be discontinued from returning Members to Parliament, leaving it for the House to determine to what particular species of con. stituents their privileges should be transferred. He had always remarked that, on questions of this nature, tbsi Right Hon. Gentleman' opposite (Mr. Peel) bad never opposed the principle of reform. On the present °cc& sion he had stated, not his objection to the motion of' the Noble Marquis, but to its being decided in so thin is House. He was not quite sure that he himself concurred in the views of the Noble Marquis respecting small bo roughs, because be (Mr. H•) was a mild reformer ; but still he should be glad to take any thing he could get. and should therefore support the motion. As long as Parliament should remain constituted as at present—he would speak out—and should say, that as long as money could command a seat in the House (and that it did had been admitted by a Minister of the Crown, a late Noble Marquis)—so long as money, by a circuitous route, led to seats in that House (however much he re• gretted that fact) be would contend that there ought to be seats in it notoriously purchasable. He had taken the liberty to say the same ones before in that House, and should repeat, that there ought to be placed within the reach of honest men of enlightened views a mode by which to enter that House. How were individuals unconnected with Noble families, who could not com mand patronage, and who were unable or unwilling to encounter the expense or the trouble of a contested election for a county—how were such persons, how ever qualified to serve their colontry they might be, to get into Parliament if not by purchasing their seats lot boroughs? Of that latter class had been the late Mr. Ricardo, who had often told him (Mr. Hobbouse) that if his return to Parliament depended on his encountering a contested election, be should be obliged to forego his desire of a seat in that House, because he felt himself unequal to such a struggle. How,then,could Mr. Ricardo and other persons—men who every body wished to see in Parliament—how were they to enter those walls as Members, it their money could not be turned into seats in Parliament? Of Mr. Ricardo be should say (and which would not be contradicted) that be had invested a sum of money in Parliament. and that be bad thereby a vested right to a sett in that House s which he would have en- jeyed daring his life had be lived to the age of brew. km. It being deeirable,therefore,that itch persons asMe. Ricardo should be in Parliament, bow under the present system, were they to obtain seats in it otherwise than by purchase, and that could not be done were the small boroughs to be disfranchised? With these sentiments he should support the motion, because it would go one step is the road of Reform. Still he would prefer Re. form on a more extended scale. He felt grateful to the )Noble Lord for bringing forward the question—indeed. be should be grateful to any man wbo should bring it forward—applying. as it did, to a subject which even the Right Hoc. Gentleman opposite had partly ad. segued merited attention. He was also glad to observe that that Right Hon. Gentleman, instead of combatting the principle of the motion, bad met it by a reference' to the state of the House. Mr. Secretary PEEL complained of not having been fairly dealt with by the Honourable Gentleman who bad just sat down. What he bad meant to convey was that he did not like that a question of so much im portance, on which the mover and seconder, and the Honourable Member for Wilts only, had expressed their sentiments, should go to a division without a discussion. He thought it more respectful to meet it as he had dor.e than by entering into its details in the then state of the House. The Hon. Member had therefore mistaken his meaning when he understood him to approve of the principle of the motion. Indeed the Honourable Member had also mistaken the ob- ject of the motion itself—(A laugh)—as it would go to destroy those small boroughs in defence of whicb the' Honourable Gentleman had made one of the ablest speeches he had ever delivered in that House; for be bad proved that but for one of those small boroughs we should, as respected Parliament. have lost the benefit of the great talents of one of the ablest representatives of the people that had ever sat in that House, and be should add, of one of the greatest ornaments of his time. The Right Honourable Gentleman concluded by requesting that his silence on the merits of the maw den at the Noble Marquis might not be taken as an in. dication of his approbation of its principle. Mr. HOBHOUSR explained. Mr. W. SMITH agreed with the Right Hon. Gentleman op. Cithat the present was not the best time that could be chosen te discussion of the question of Reform. He congratulated the House, however, on the new effect of the Catholic Relief Bill, which had made Radical Reformers of some of the highest Tories to the country. The Marquis of BLANDFORD replied. He thought Com. mitten of Inquiry were of no use whatever; they only perpetuated mischiefs instead of providing remedies for them. Let this House (continued the Noble Marquis) cleanse and purify itself, and then it will be in a It state to redress public grievances. The House then divided, when there were— For the motion 4O Against it ......... .......... Majority against the undies EAST ESTFORD. Mr. H. FANE presented two Petitions from thebor stesses and other inhabitants of the borough of East Rettord, praying that the House should direct a writ to be issued for the election of two representatives of their borough to sit in Parliament. The Honourable Member proceeded to support the prayer of the petitioners, con tending that by suspending the franchise of the borough fee three years (a period of suspension for which, in the andals of Parliament, there was no precedent) the peti- Ammer. had suffered most severely. The Honourable Member moved that the Speaker be directed to issue ,is warrant for two new writs for the election of Mero lla's to save in Parliament for the borough of East •etlord. Mr. LUMLEY, in seconding the motion, said that if it were pressed to a division he h nal d vote for it ; be should support the prayer of the petition. The borough had not been fairly dealt with ; the severity which it bad met hitherto was sufficient punishment for its delinquency. Mr. TENNYSON reminded the House that the peti don just presented had come from the great body of corrupt electors. It bore the names of many who had admitted they had received sums . of money for their votes. For instance, that of Leadbitter and Mr. My, the returning offi:er of the borough, to whom the new writs should be issued. There was no precedent for this treatment of the borough. That of Hindon was not a case in point. After some other details that have been repeated over and over again in the many discussions on this subject, the Honourable Member asked whether the House could consent to the p•esent motion after they had solemnly decided to postpone the consideration of it to nest Session ? As to the majority obtained by Mr. Peel against the motion for transferring the franchise to Birmingham, that decision was not es pressive of the opinion of the country. He should move las an amendment—" That the Speaker be directed to I , suspend the issuing of the warrant for the writs Will after fourteen days after the beginning of next session." The amendment was handed to the Speaker, and some private eonversation took place between the Speaker and Mr. Tennyson. We. TENNYSON said, baring endentood that his anseadmedt was irregular, be , wooki meet the original motion with a direct _ . septic,. The SPEAKER said be had not said the amendment was kre plat', bat insilicient. inasmuch u no resolution of the House in this Session could bind Members after the opening of nest Session. MY. TENNISON said be would again correct his amendment by moving, " That the issuing of the writs be suspended for this Session." On the question being put, Lord HOWICK said he would support the motion for the writs. He had voted for transferring the fran chise from East Retford to Birmingham, but not with a view to punish the borough, but for the purpose of giving the franchise to the opulent and populous town. He would never, in fact, • vote for the disfranchisement of any borough, however clearly it may be convicted of corruption, while the present notorious system of obtaining seats in the House was practised by nine tenths of the Members. For instance, he would ask Mr. Tennyson himself whether he was returned for his public services to that House by the independent elec tors of Bletcbingley. or by the recommendation of an individual? And be would ask Mr. Peel whether be bad been chosen by the independent electors of West bury on account of his public principles or through pe. estuary influence? In fact, money paid for a seat in that House was a bribe, whether paid to one person or divided among several. Sir JOHN BRYDGES said, that having voted for transferring the elective franchise from East ftstford to the hundred of Bassetlaw in the last Session of Par liament. rather than to the town of Birmingham, no thing that had fallen from Honourable Members in this Session bad induced him to alter his opinion; but after every consideration be was confirmed in it. He thought 'shards measure of punishment had been dealt out to this borough in depriving it of its elective fran chise, as thereby many innocent persons suffered for the climes of the guilty. But, as this House had come to the resolution already so to act, the next step for con sideration was the best means to substitute a fit re. presentation in lieu of it. He confessed he•did not think conferring this privilege on the town of Birmingham would be the best step, and be was doubtful whether it was *desirous of it. No such desirehad, at.least, been expressed that be had bawd of out of this House; it had been alone advocated in it. Its inhabitants felts oak ; d• too sci Par- Sr- a O. bog. deo $ profkg perhaps, as he (Sir John arydges) did upon AU occa sion, that the interests of this great town were suffi ciently protected and advanced by the two excellent Members for the county in which Birmingham was situated, and that it would willingly dispense with the expense ai well as the feuds and heart-burnings that too frequently ensued after a contested Parliamentary elec tion. He said the argument that had been made use of in this debate, that, by a decision one sway, the agri cultural, and by the other the trading, interest would be forwarded, was an invidious and a false one; it was drawing a distinction between two interests, neither of which could flourish if the other decayed ; and it was the duty of every Member of the Senate, whether a representative of the landed or the commercial inte rest. to endeavour to uphold an equal balance of pros perity between the two. As this House had. he 'aid, already decided that bribery and corruption had been proved against East Retford,consequently that as a bo rough it ought to be disfranchised, he should vote against the motion now under discussion ; and, consi dering it immaterial w the general benefit of the Em pire whether representatives be appointed in Bitmtng• ham or the hundred of Bassetlaw. he should, whenever that question came under the consideration of the House. give his vote for the latter, because he consi dered this was to inflict a lesser punishment upon East Retford than to deprive it altogether of any shale in the elective franchise. Lord OXMANTOWN was decidedly hostile to Par liamentary reform. The House of Commons was not inadequate to its representative duties. The House did not all require reform. As to this borough, he could not consent that it should be disfranchised on ac count of receiving consideration money for elections, inasmuch as there were many able men who notoriously owed their seats in that House to the influence of money ; the theory that was so beneficial in practical working could not be defective; while, on the other hand, he was unwilling to recognise the .influence of money as a means of obtaining seats in that House. Between these two objections he should decline supporting the motion. If the borough should be eventually disfranchised, he should tote for giving the franchise to a large and opu lent town like Birmingham—(Cries of "Question.") Mr. DUNCOMBE supported the motion for the new writs. The charge of corruption against the borough was not clearly made out. It ought to be tried instantly, and decided without postponement. Yet the investiga tion bad been postponed till next Session, and the borough was, during that period, to suffer disfranchise ment. •In tact, vacillation was the order of the day—. Ministers had no decided opinion upon any subject; their only object sod plan was to postpone every ques tion till the neat Session. If the borough could be proved to be guilty, it was but justice to prosecute the investigation through the ether House of Parliament, and to arrive without delay at an immediate decision, but if the parties against the borough were not prepared to prove its guilt immediately, the House was bound cis assume its innocence, and grant to the borough the benefit of that assumption in the restoration of its elec tive franchise—(Cheers). Mr. SYKES deprecated any further postponement of this question. It bad been under the consideration of the House for the last four years, and if that period were not sufficient for its determination he would beg to ask what time would be ? Let the House. however, take whatevertime it would, he had no hesitation in saying, that it would finally determine to restore to this unfortunate borough the right of election which it had formerly enjoyed, for he was convinced that the evi dence which had been laid before the House was not sufficient to lead it to come to the conclusion that the borough of East Retford had been guilty of corruption. Mr. EWART saw no reason why the question should not be postponed again because it had happened to have been postponed before. He denied that the House was bound by any limitation of time; it was not compelled to settle a question at any given time merely because it bad not settled it before. He differed in opinion from the Rousso:able Member who had last addressed the House with respect to the conclusion to be drawn front dye evidence which had been adducesl in reference to this question. He was decidedly of opinion that the 'corruption of the borough had been proved beyond dispute. Sir .1. SICBRIGHT said, that although he believed ha the ear. insidoss of the borough be idtould vote for the writ, because he shoe* the House could de nothing so bad u to transfer the fun d*, to the hundred. lir. N. CA Li/ EMT said that In consequence of what had fallut - • tram his Honourable Weep* be felt it necessary to make a single abeervatioa. He thought that the only object that the electors of Ibe borough bad io causing the present motion to be nude was, that time/ might have a second opportunity of putting forty pounds each into their pockets. sir. BRIGHT expressed his determination to support the mo tion for the writ, since be thought that the question hal not yet been properly investigated by the House. Mr. BROUGHAM said, that although the present question had already been discussed at great length on previous occasions, and although it might now be con sidered as a worn out subject, he nevertheless felt him self bound to state the reasons which induced him to support the motion of the Right Honourable Member for Lymeßegis. He did not vote for that motion upon the ground that it was hopeless ever to transfer the elective tranchisefrom the borough of Eastßetford to the town of Birmingham; but he entertained very sanguine hopes that in the course of another Session the House would be enabled to legislate upon this question prospectively, as had been done in the Grampound case, and some others. He thought that the seats now empty should be filled up by tire return of two Members for East Retford, who should retain their seats until the ques tion of the propriety or impropriety of disfranchising the borough was terminated. It was one thing to vote that the borough had been corrupt. and to attempt to disfranchise it in consequence, but quite another thing when they (the House of Commons) bad so acted, to follow it up by irking the borough into their own hands without the concurrence of the other branches of the Legislature. He contended that the House bad no power to prohibit the issuing of a new writ for any borough, unless they had previously re ceived the sanction of the other branches of the Legi,. latore for so doing. There were constitutional objec tions to such a course; for it was provided by the Constitution that no part of the representatve body of the kingdom should remain unrepresebted.— It was true that if that Legislative body had been found corrupt, their franchise could be taken from them; but it must be taken from them by a decided Act of the whole Legislature, and not by the House of Commons alone. No such Act bad been passed with respect to the present borough. It had thereforeoot het been disfranchised , and that House consequent!, ad no right to withhold the writ which was now . moved for. He thought, indeed, that the Amendmeht pro posed by his Hon. Friend was one of so mean a nature se almost to amount to paltriness. It assumed a &tat dog of mock dignity and affected much good; but it was calculated to do neither one nor the other. Mr. Secretary PEEL said, that in his opinion there oferld be less ineonvenksee In adopting the amendment of the