Star. — London, England, 1826-12-06 00:00:00

he it, n- ber et., ter ted bi' H. earnestly hoped the Committee would commence its la bours without delay ; for the House could not but be aware that, after the manner in which these charges had been brought forward against him, by the llonourable Al er man, his feelings must be in a very harassed state, as k i ng as the inquiry should be suspended. He was therefore in ist anxious, that when appointed, the Com mittee should immediately proceed to business ; and that t he Holm would not allow the investigation to stand over till after the holidays. The Honourable Alder ran had made him the particular object of personal at tack. as if he had been the grand encourager of Joint .Stock Companies. That was not the case. He certainly had been no encourager of improper Joint Stock Corn panics. He had been engaged in the direction of two or three liint Stock Companies—all of them of unexcep eieeable character, and most useful to the Public, except this miserable Arigna Company ; and whatever impro prieties might have taken place in the management of 'the affairs of that Company, he had had no share in any of these improprieties. He had been already on his trial respecting the transactions which had taken place in the management of that Company, and before as competent -a Tribunal as any that could be appointed by that House. He had been tried by eminent merchants of London— men particularly conversant with affairs of this nature, and with general business, and by them he had been en tirely acquitted of any participation in those transacti sms which had been considered as deserving of censure. At a meeting of Gentlemen of this description, a Reso lution had been proposed, and unanimously passed, stating, that he had not been at all implicated in the frauds which had been understood to have taken place (Hear). He was so far from deprecating inquiry, that he mist anxiously solicited it (Hear). He begged leave to call the attention of the House to what had passed at the Committees and Meetings, where this Arigna busi ness was brought under investigation. In July, 1825, a Committee had been appointed to inquire into the mat ter, and of this he was first informed by the Sllicitor of the Company; and afterwards a General Meeting was held, to which the Committee had reported that nothing had appeared in the course of the investigation to implicate him or Mr. Bent. Shortly after a publica tion appeared in the Times newspaper, which seemed to reflect on his character as connected with these trans actions ; and upon this the Solicitor has expressed to him his regret that any blame should have thus been im puted to him, and sent a letter to the Editor of the Times, stating that he (Mr. Brogden) had not been at all implicated in the fraud in question. The Times had published the letter, but remarked at the same time, that the Solicitors of these Companies would naturally put the best face possible upon the transactions of the Managers. After this mode of treating the matter by the Times, he had determined that no rejoinder from him should appear in that paper. The matter did not end there ; for the Committee which he mentioned above, moved by the injustice done to him in the Thies, had met, and sent him a letter expressing their regret at the publication in the Times, and giving it distinctly as their unanimous conviction that neither he (Mr. Brogden) nor Mr. Bent had any knowledge whatever of the misapplication of 15,000/. of the funds of the Company, when they re ceived the 10001. each. The Committee afterwards agreed upon a resolution to be reported to a General Meeting, and in that resolution the Committee express ed their unanimous opinion, that when Messrs. Brogden and Bent had accepted the 10001. each, they thought that the money had arisen from the sale of shares, and were utterly and entirely ignorant at the time that the money had been withdrawn from the funds of the Com pany ; and that when informed of the fact, they had done every thing in their power to promote a prompt and rigid inquiry into the transaction. This report was laid before a General Meeting, and was unanimously confirmed. At a subsequent General Meeting, held for the purpose of considering the propriety of excluding those who had really been concerned in the fraud, a resolution, acquitting him of all participation in it, was carried by 202 shareholders out of 216, the num ber of which the Meeting consisted. In short, at four General Meetings, his conduct throughout bad been fully approved—(Hear). He had only to express his earnest wish that Gentlemen would not suffer their minds to be biassed by the general prejudice which then prevailed against Joint Stock Companies. Joint Stock Companies were not necessarily bad; for many great and useful purposes they were absolutely necessary.— The Hon. Alderman had spoken of the mania of Joint Stock Companies. He (Mr. Brogden) had a predilec tion for that mania j for he belonged to one which had been eminently successful, and most advantageous to the public. He had, no doubt, a share in the direction of some others ; but be they what they might, he had always acted with perfect integrity—(Hear, hear).— At.er the Amendment, moved by the Right Honour able the Secretary of State, he did not think him self called upon to enter upon the general nature and hist , ny of these Joint Stock Companies. The Mining Companies had been particularly alluded to. But surely Mining speculations were not necessarily bad. Many of them were most valuable, and most useful to the public. Even the South American Mining Ass-ciations had done good; as, by the employment of British capital and industry in the working of the Mines of those recently emancipated States, the con nexion between them and this country was drawn closer, and great advantages procured for oar com merce. He concluded by stating again, that he most sincerely rejoiced at the prospect of the appointment of the Committee, and the Lull investigation of those matters in which he was accused of baying been implicated; and he repeated his wish, that it would meet as early as possible, and proceed with the inquiry immediately. Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN disowned any sweep ing censures on Joint Stock Companies. In what he had said he had excepted all those which, though of great and unquestionable usefulness, were naturally of too great a magnitude to fall within the compass of indivi dual capital. Mr. FERGUSSON was fur going into other cases which had been stated by the Hon. Alderman, and could met agree that this was worse and more iniquitous than some others of them. He was quite sure, as the case stood, that the character and honour of the House were so far implicated by the charges made, in those trans actions, is to render justification necessary. He hoped that the Hon. Alderman would diligently employ the recess in making vod the particulais of other cases— for that was the way, and the only way to do justice effectually, and he for one would give his cordial assist ance to celitig fur a thorough tuvestigation. It had certainly become necessary to let in light upon these transactions, whosoever might chance to be affected by it, be they Members of that House, or be they not Mem bers; or if they should be friends of those who engaged the investigation, they ought still not to be screened, for the Members of that Huse ought to be the last per eons in the country who could be found capable of using' their power and influence to screen delinquents. (Cheers.) Mr. HOBHOUSE said, that the House and the country, and also the Hon, Gentleman (Mr. Brogden) ought to feel greatly obliged to the Hon. Alderman, and to the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite,' and to Ministers generally, for the manner in which he had treated this question. In rine point he could not concur with them. Having that early foresight which their official communications must give them, having that ready mode of appreciating the public danger which their official industry must give them, they should have been louder and more direct in warning the country of the perils of the bubble schemes, and of the disgrace which must fall on public men, and among them, oa the Members of that House who should be found im plicated in them. Then the House would have to thank them for more than the exercise of that candour, pro priety, and justice which they had shewn in their present conduct. He was confident that some legislative en. actment was necessary to prevent the recurrence of . Isrmilar frauds, and that without it, the country could never be persuaded that the House bad done its duty. In 1825, he had himself predicted the ruinous consequences of the schemes, and the gross impro priety of Members of Parliament suffering themselves to be drawn into transactions so disgraceful in their nature. He recollected with pain, Members coming down night after night with trumpery letters, and reading them to the House, from which it would have appeared, that in South America gold and silver were so abundant, so much used in such a variety of ways, that every implement of domestic use was made of it, and that people had little else to do but freight out coals, and ship home an equal weight of silver spoons. Nothing had been more fallacious than those Mining Schemes. In all particulars the parties had been de ceived and disappointed, and they longed now for a final dissolution of the partnerships. He thought that the Hon. Gent. who spoke last was right in calling on the House for other inquiries. 'There was no just reason fur naming Mr. Brogden, and not naming others. He repeated his thanks to the Hon. Alderman, and also to the Right Hon. Gent. although in the latter case he was aware of the little value of the gift, for their conduct on this occasion. Mr. ATTWOOD argued with considerable warmth against the imputations which had been indiscriminately thrown on the system of Joint Stock Companies—a system which he said had the approval of Mr. Huskissun in 1818. It was curious enough that Sir A. Grant, their present Chairman of Committees, had been at the head of a Joint Stock Company—(A laugh). There was nothing derogatory to the character of Members of that House in their being the holders of Shares in a public concern, in which the Worthy Alderman might be assured there was as indisputable a pro perty as a purchaser could have in a shawl—(A laugh). The country was covered with the works of these Join Stuck Companies, which in fact did honour to the nation. The ¶orthy Alderman stated that in 1824 several persons with fraudulent and sinister views had applied to him to become concerned Ili Joint Stock Speculations. Why men of such character should have ap plied to the Worthy Alderman he could not tell ; but he could take upon him to say that they had never applied on that subject to him self—(Much laughter).—Here the Hon. Geistlemon entered into a minute detail of the various important works which had been achieved by several Joint Stock Associations. Sir A. GRANT said, that as he had been alluded to by the Hon. Member who had just sat down, he felt called upon to reply to that part of his address which applied to him. But for the distinction introduced by the amendment in the terms of the motion, he would not feel himself at liberty to adopt this course. As mat ters stood, he thought he might ask the Hon. Member whether the point of his allusion made a part of the question before the House? It was true, he was a Di rector of a certain Company, which lasted for a few weeks, but of the existence of which he should imagine that no individual in the House had been aware; nor did he suppose that any one, except those who were in the same situation would know anything about it. In the Spring of 1825, it was proposed to him to become a Director m a Company from which considerable ad vantages were anticipated. It would be in the recollec tion of the House, that in 1824 their Majesties of the Sandwich Islands visited this country—..(A lough). Royal visits were matters not to be forgotten—(4 laugh).— The melancholy fate of those illustrious persons or per sonages would also be remembered. An individual named Reeve, a Frenchman, who attended them, professed to be entrusted by them with powers to grant exclusive privileges for the purpose of extending the trade of their islands. He seemed anxious to dispose of those privileges by means of Joint Stock Companies. In the formation of a Company for this object, he (Sir A. G.) acquiesced. From 20,0001. to 25,0001. was received, and the trade of the Company was principally to consist in sandals ; but it was shortly after discovered that the Frenchman was not really entrusted with the powers to which he pretended, and the Company was accordingly dissolved. It must be unnecessary for him to enter into a description of the different arrangements essential to the regular formation of A Company, or of the para. phern ilia which was required by the one to which he particularly alluded. The Company, however, had been in existence but a few weeks when it became evident to the Directors that there was little or no chance of its suc ceeding. They then met together to take the subject into consideration, and argued thus: They, the Directors, by giving countenance to and lauding the speculation, had induced a portion of the public to come forward and to take shares; and that therefore they were in duty bound, as they had discovered that they had acted from falla cious expectations, to take the onus upon themselves, and net to cast it upon those who had embarked in the speculation on the authority of the Directors—(Hear, hear, hear). And that course was strictly followed.— The Company was dissolved, the deposits which had been made ss ere returned, and the loss which had been sustained was borne, not by the shareholders in general, but by the Directors themselves—(Loud cheers). He did not wish this statement to be received merely on his own authority ; there were many Hon. Gentlemen pre sent who could give the best testimony to its truth (Hear, hear). it was with great pain that he had in truded upon the attention of the House, even for a mo ment, on matters relating at all particularly to himself; but, after the very pointed allusions, and uncourteous remarks which had fallen from an Hon. Member, he felt himself bound to vindicate his own conduct by a simple recital of facts—(Hear). Mr. ATT WOOD explained—He bore his most willing testimony to the harmless and innocent character of the Company projected by the Hon. Member—( A laugh). Mr. JOHN SMITH acknowledged that he was con nected with Fite Insurance Companies, but had no con nection, of which he would be asha ned, with any of the Companies that atone during the mania for Joint Stock Associations. He w (mid allow that some Mi ning Companies had been lorti.ed on 141. e principles— he himself was connected with one whose affairs he should be glad to see pubiicly investigated. Of this be would state one fact, that though the shares rose to premiums iinm:diately alter they came out, the Direc tors did not sell any ut their shares ; he himself had not sold one of his shares up to that moment—(Hear„ hear). And so far frdm inducing others to join it, he had in fact warned some against such a step, stating, as a reason, that the project was merely ex perimental, and liable to failure. He was sure some of those Joint Stock Companies would ultimately be found to serve the best interests of the country. He was interested in another Company, into which he had been led by motives far different from a desire of gain—one which enjoyed the patronage of Government —he meant the Australian Company. (Hear.) Though some Companies had been founded on false principles, or with fraudulent purposes, yet that would not justify the Hon. Alderman's imputation of fraudulent conduct against the many Members of the House who were con cerned in Joint Stock Companies.—(Hear). As to the Equitable Loan Company, of which he was Vice Pre sident, he was convinced, that, if established, it would bring benefit to the poor. Such an institution in Paris, Mont de Piete, had been found to give to the poor much relief, and to do much good—particularly as the laws relative to pawnbrokers were in a very defective state, and required considerable alteration. After the lan guage used by the Hon. Alderman with respect to that Company, he considered himself bound to follow it up—to drive the nail to the head. As to the origin of those Companies, It could not be denied that they were created by the surplus capital—but they had pro duced many beneficial institutions. As far as he (Mr. S.) was con cerned in them, he did not dread inquiry; and be was sure that many of the charges against the Equitable Loan Bill world be found full of exaggeration. Mr. HUSKISSON.—As I am sure that the worthy Alderman's representations relative to myself must have arisen from his having been misinformed on the facts, I have only to declare that I have had no connection, direct or indirect, with the Joint Stock Companies of 1824., 1825, 1826—( Cheers). I must, however, admit that I hold shares in a Fire Insurance Company, but those shares I have held for the last twenty years, and am not ashamed thus freely to acknowledge it—(Cheers). There are other Companies also in which I hold shares, two small Canal Companies (a laugh), but from which I derive no benefit now, and in which I was induced to join through motives of connexion and local interest. As to my conduct in the affair of the Company for Pro moting the Growth of Silk, the facts were these: When the projectors of it came to us to the Board of Trade, and sought our assistance in establishing the Com pany, I stated that I was desirous of seeing the experiment fairly tried that under other circum stances I should be glad to possess a pecuniary in terest in it, but that the situation which I held in the Board of Trade utterly prevented any connex ion on my part with any association of the kind. The Company afterwards labouring under a miscon ception, applied to me to know what number of shares I would take ? and I again said, that they had miscon ceived what I had said, and that all my desire was to give to the Company such a degree of countenance, as would have the effect of encouraging them fairly to make the experiment; and I can assure the House, that what was done on my part, was done with the full and perfect confidence, that the establishment of this Com pany would be the means of affording employment to a considerable portion of the population of Ireland— ( Hear). I defy the Worthy Alderman, or any other Hon. Member, to mention one Company, of any kind or description in which I had directly or indirectly any concern—(Cheers). Having stated so much, I cannot sit down without expressing the great satis faction I fed at the able vindication of Joint Stock Companies generally, by the Hon. Member for Midhurst. The long experience and considerable mercantile infor mation of that Hon. Member enabled him to appreciate the great benefits derived by the country from the forma tion of Joint Stock Companies. I think it desirable' that it should not go forth to the country that this House approved of the unmeasured condemnation cast by the Worthy Alderman upon Joint Stock Com panies of every description. If there was one cir cumstance in the history of this country to which more than another must be attributed the great ad vantages, derived by commerce in this country, whe ther from canals, harbours, or bridges, all of which have contributed, in no inconsiderable degree, to ad vance the general wealth of this country, it is to the existence of Joint Stock Companies. The great differ ence between the manner in which those public works, so beneficial to the country, were carried on in this compared with other countries, consists in this, that in this country those public works are carried on under the direction of men who have a deep interest in the success of the undertaking, whilst in other countries those public works were left to the care of the Govern ment, to be carried on by the Government, and the ex penses defrayed out of the public revenues. The conse quence of this latter mode of conducting public works generally is, that they are carried on under the direction of persons who have not a deep interest in their suc cess ; and in many instances those works, which, if completed, must tend to the benefit of the public gene rally, are left unfinished. If we look at the great works throughout the country, is will be found that they were, originally, very disadvantageous to the projectors, al though very beneficial to the public. My Hon. Friend (Mr. Attwood) has mentioned the New River Company. What greater benefit could a large town enjoy, than that afforded by this Company ? What greater advantage can a large town possess, than an ample supply of good water? That work was undertaken by individuals, and carried on originally, at a great loss to them, but with benefit to the public. I am ready to admit, that ulti mately the work was productive of benefit to those who succeeded the original Shareholders. They were amply remunerated, but the public, who originally were benefitted, were also ultimately benefitted.— The same may be said of bridges—the same may be said of other gt eat works, which distinguish this ctuntry, from other countries, which have advanced the com merce, and increased the general wealth of the country. All those works were undertaken by Joint Stock Companies, and successfully managed, not always, I am ready to admit, for the benefit of the parties who had engaged in them, but always carried on for the public benefit. A greater illusion cannot exist in the country, than an attempt to cry down Joint Stock Companies of every description as positive and public evils—(Hear). What has been the conduct of this House in that respect? Not longer ago than last See., sion, this House countenanced a negociation with the' Bank of England, to induce them to relax a little the monopoly which that Establishment enjoys by Charter, in order that Joint Sock Companies should be esta blished in vat ions parts of the country, for the purpose of securing persons engaged in trade from the loss to v. hich they were exposed by the then existing system of currency. We quoted as an example Scotland, where the Charter of the Bank of Sc..tland does not prevent the formation of Joint Stock Companies. 1 am astonished to hear Gentlemen of business—l am astonished to hear the 'Worthy Alderman, talk of mining carried on by Joint Stock Companies, as a new discovery, as a thing of recent date. I tell those Gentlemen—l tell the Worthy Alderman—that there has not been a mine worked in this country, time out of mind, except by means of J int Stock Com panies —and without the formation of such Companies, those mines would not have been explored, and, there fore, could not be made advantageous to the public. All the mines in Cornwall, all the mines in Wales, and in the other mining districts, are carried on by John Stock Companies. I lament, Sir, very much, that the law is not in a more satisfactory state with respect to those Companies. All I say is, that it ought to be the policy of the law to encourage Joint Stock Companies, and that it is a mischievous policy to attempt to dissuade persons from engaging in them, or to take away their character; and that, when embarked in properly and fairly, they are beneficial to the public interests, and are fraught with great public advantages. I do not now speak of the bubbles of the last two years. I have no hesitation in saying, that those who have been concerned in those speculations have disgraced them selves, if they knew, at the time they engaged in them, that they were not likely to tend to the public benefit— (Hear, hear). No man can deny that, or contend to the contrary, for a moment—(Cheers). I, for one, can say, that when the discussions connected with those bubbles took place in this House, I was always ready to raise my hand against them—(Cheers); and to use what little weight or influence I possess, in dissuading the public from connecting themselves with ephemeral schemes, so fraught with fraud and delusion in many. sad with obvious risk and hazard in other instances. I ask the worthy Alderman, who was not a Member of the House when the discussions upon those Com• 1 panics took place—l ask other Honourable Mem bers, who had the honour of being Members of this House when those discussions took place, when, among many others, the Milk Company, and the Brick Com pany, were brought under the notice of the House, whether I did not caution the public against engaging in those speculations—(Hear)? However, such was the weakness, the folly, the blindness, or the avarice of some persons, that the caution was not listened to, and the consequences which have followed, are well known, and I trust they will operate as a wattling to others not to follow their example. I wish that there could be devised a law to prevent persons from engaging in bub bles, and I am willing to go with the Worthy Alder man in investigating the proceedings of those Comps. vies, and in punishing those who shall be found to have entrapped °Oen to engage in speculations which they knew were not likely to be beneficial to the public, but I cannot join in a sense leu clamour against a principle of commerce and improvement, :11. which has e isted fur years in this country, and which has been acted upon the benefit and advantage of the public at Lige. Colon DAVIES, as a Director of a Joint Stock Company, defended himself from the imputations cast upon Directors in general, and said that he had lent himself solely with a view to promote the progress of science and improvement in the country. Mr. HUDSON GURNEY contended for the necessity and uti lity of Joint Stock Companies. Mr. ROBERTSON said, that the allusions of the Hon. Alderman have been so completely answered by other Members, that it was impossible his motion could be entertained by the House. He was sute that the Hon. Alderman had no intention of mixing up the ephemeral Companies of the last year, which were so justly called 44 Bubbles," with the respectable and established Com. ponies, which had so mainly contributed to the advance ment of the public advantage. He, nevertheless, fully agreed in the impropriety of Members of that House suffering their names to be placed on the lists of those Companies, Instead of attending to their more imperious duties—(Hear). Sir C. FORBES said, the Hon. Alderman had had the spirit and fortitude to say within the House what was universally said without it, with respect to the con duct of those Members who had been connected with the speculation in question. With respect to the allu sion by the Hon. Member for Midhurst to the Austra lian Company, he would ask 11,1 n whether it was not founded on a monopoly, to be continued for twenty years? Were not his Majesty's Government bound to allow no patent to any other Corporate Society, having similar objects, for that period ? Had they net got a rant of one million of acres of land, in New S.,uth Wales, worth 250,0001. ? Was not this Company at present considered a job of the most flagrant description in that country, where he believed it originated? 'This (he had it from the best authority) was the fact. He hoped the lion. Alderman would meet that support from the House that he deserved. With respect to an Hon. Member of that House, he thought be would be perfectly absolved from blame had he given up the money which be received. Mr. JOHN SMITH said, he did not understand why the Australian Company should be called a job. The object was to obtain a species of fine wool, which could be got no where else; and it was not more than neces sary that some property should be granted to them in the country. The whole transaction was highly credi table to the Government ; and one good effect produced by the Company was, that it had reclaimed a nation of Savaps,who were described by all writers as the most ferocious in the world. No injury had arisen to any one from the formation of the COMr pany, but a great deal of public good. Sir CHARLES FORBES explained. Mr. WILMOT.HORTON said, that the worthy Baronet, who had just sat down, had been pleased to state upon (as the Hon. Baronet had stated) undeniable authority, received from New South Wales, that the Australian Company was a job. He denied in Soto the observation, that the Government had incautiously and improperly given a bonus to the Company, and he would advise the Hon. Baronet, when he should next think fit to snake any statement in that House respect ing the conduct of the Government, not to make it upon his " undeniable authority," because he (Mr. Wil ' mot-Horton) could assure the Hon. Baronet, that his " undeniable authority" had led him into error and mis representation—(hear), and was founded upon miscon• ception. The formation of the Colony alluded to had cost the Colonial Department much trouble b and it was formed upon the principle that nothing could be more beneficial in its immediate consequences tor New South Wales, and ultimately for this country. To talk of monopoly by grant ing one million acres in a district in which there were twenty million of acres of the same quality, and in a country where there was land to an unlimited extent, was perfectly absurd. The Hon. Baronet had said this Company was a job ; but he (Mr. Wilmot-Horton) would say, that although that Company, as well as the Canada and Van Diemen's Land ComPanies, were framed by the Government, there was not a single share in them held by any person connected with the Colonial Department. Mr. HART DAVIS defended the Australian Com pany. The sheep had been purchased from different persons, and according to their value. It was already a flourishing concern, which was proved by the fact of the twenty-four Directors now holding mote shares than they ori ginally did. Fur his own part he had never sold a single share, and he was satisfied that the Company was formed on public principle. Mn CH A RLIIS TAYLOR reproved tbe system of speculating • which had been but too prevalent, and thought the Inquiry necessary.