Star. — London, England, 1820-05-06 00:00:00

l . ~..; : " .PCIF vvr s'qr. j e4 '. • • 4 : 0 r 41F N17:,, ori r • „ • .: 141. • • • • I,.mtally. .• k • X 4 i ) 111 , , elk/1 4 Fir N o . 4 `~ 4 F II7I M9PM. I` ,AO . „ Nu 31BER 10,358. StTURDAY, MAY C, 1820. PRI( It SEVEN -PENCE• PARLI AMENTARV NIOCEEDINGS. DOUSE OF LORDS, MAY 5. Counsel were hoard at some length touching that branch of the great Queensberry Cause, in which the Varquis is Appa ll:lt, a:1,1 Sir James' Montgomery, Bart. and others, Respon dents.—T, prc.cecd a'tin on Monday. In the e.t.e of the " Marchioness Dowager v. the Marquis of Lansdo'sn," the judgment of the Court below was reversed. The Da , of DortrET, Lord SCARSDALE, and one - or two other Peers. took the oaths and their seats. Mr. 5311711, from the Conris>ioners of Richmond Bridge, yresented at the bar the ('ash Aectoant of the same for the year 1819. Lord AUCK LA ND, pliNuant to notice, moved for the ap pointment of a Committee on the Insolvent Del:tors' Bill, the peculiar and well known importance of which, he felt, rendered it unnecessary for him to trouble their Lordships with any oh :creations. The operation of the Bill respecting Insolvent Debtors was itt a manner suspended, and one effect was, that the prisons were now crowded to an unprecedented degree. The great principle they had to bear in mind was, duly to diacrimi nate between the cases cif fraudulent and unfortunate debtors. l house could better judge when various circumstances con- 1 ted with the subject should be before their Lordships. /lc Gloried is suffieient to draw the attention of the House to the subject of the laws in question in this way, and should not trou- We their Lordship farther at present, than to move, " That a Cummittee be appointed to inquire into the state of the laws .;ecting Insolvent Debtors in lingland; and that all the Lords pr: ent this Session be authorised to sit on such Committee," *Acta was forthwith oraered accordingly. The Earl of LIVERPOOL brisfly called their Lordships' t—tolkction to what passed between bins yesterday and a Noble 1'...r1 (Darnley) not now in Lis place, on the subject of the Pa- Inn Appointment of his Ma sty's Printer in Ireland, and of the sums paid en account of the office for the last ten years. To this be (Lord Liverpool) then stated he bad no objection; an d . should now regularly move, in the absence of that Noble Earl, for the produccion of a Copy of the Patent, and the accounts de eked. These, on the motion of the Noble bfinister, were or de .d to be produccd.—Adjourned till Maatlay. HOUSE OF COMMONS. I.2rd G. Catvwtoissr, Lord ROBER2 I Mato:Eas, and Afteen other Ife , r.hers, took the oaths and their seats. IA aye was given to bring in a Bill fur Lighting the Cty of Norwich With Gas. - - r. CURWEN moved for an Account of all the Coals int per :ed into Ireland during the yeas 1819 and 1830, distirb ysi,i,h:ng the iiu;:lity of the Coals, and the places they were front. A ;lin fur I..•;hting the City of Gloucester with Gas, was brought t-p and read a Ent time. • Jir. H. SUMNER moved for an Account of the sum of 3Lney received during the last five years by the City of Lon. Cat an account of the Orphans' Fund, with au Account of the saras now in hand.—Ordered. _ . Eli- 11. -PA ItNELL postponed the , notice of motion, which he had given on A former day, relative to the Cauholie Question, to Tuesday the hall inizart. On the motion of Mr. 11. SUMNER, an Account was laid leicre the House ei all the Corn waiehousidfor a given time. 'l l .!r. M. A. TAYLOR. brought in a WI to punish, crimi-. illy, Stage-Coach Drivers., for injuries sustained through their iidseonduct in driviag.--litrad a Arm, and ordered to be read a second time on Friday. DISTItSESES OF MANUFACTURERS AND LABOURERS. Mr. BEN ETT (of Wiltshire) said he held in his hand a Pe- I tlf.on, sign( d by CCOO persons residing in the County of Wilts, tnd that among the signatures were many Magistrates and other respectable persons. The great bulk of the Petitioners, how en:, consisted of Manufacturers employed in the making of 170ollea Cloth, and Labourers employed in Agriculture. The cre c:-,lnplaincd of want of employment, and suffering great dig- tresses in consequence of the extended use of A achinery ; and the Agricultural Labourers complained, that even when they could obtain employment, their wages were not sufficient to n.aintain themselves and families without parochial relief. The Honourable Member said, he wished to impress upon the House, that there was I:tithing like a Radical feeling among these poor people, no disposition to hold 'Jottings, or to en eaurage anything like sedition or political ferment. They were t;,aceable, well disposed towards the Government, and patient under their sufferings. Ile therefore hoped that their Petition would be favourably received, and that some means might be adopted for relieving their extreme distress. He then brought 1:;) the Petition, which was read. Resides the statements made by the Honourable Member, those of the : Petitioners, who mere journeymen manufacturers, noticed, among their other L.,taships, that of their being prevented by law from seeking employment in any foreign country.—Ordered to lie on the e. 11:, mid to be printed. PETElisrumn ELECTION. Mr. WROTTESLEY presented a Petition from Messrs. At:h..son and Comae, complaining of an undue Election for Buroui,h of Peters&E, in Ilampshire.—Ordered to be taken into consii.eration on the 26th of May. CAPE OF GOOD HOPE. Mr. GOULIAJRN laid upon the table Papers, containing 21 account of all Civil Offices at the Cape of Good Ikpe, the habries of v::ich exceeded the sum of 1:1:50 per annum : also a copy of the Dispatch transmitted from Lord Bathurst to the Governor of :he Colony, Lord Chas.Somerset,dated Ist March. L:,..41 NILTON inquired, whither that copy contained also a copy of the appointment of Mr. Ellis? 'lr. GOULBURN replied in the affirmative; and, in an swer to a question from Lord Mihon, obszrved, that the only zzthority for such appointments to Civil Offices, was the King's pleasure, signified to the Colonial Governor throo&h the Sees Lary of State: upon receipt of that letter, the appointment was I.cnerally made out; and upon this principle he (Mr. Goulburn) Lad forwarded such a letter to Lord Somerset. Lord MILTON replied, he was not aware of that. WOOL TRADE. On t►e motion of Lord MILTON, a Return of the number of Pieces of Cloth milled in the West Riding of Yorkshire, from the year 1790 up to the present time, distinguishing the num ber in each year, was ordered co be laid before the House. Lord MILTON reudoded the Chancellor of the Exchequer of certain inquiries that were set on foot before the Uoard of ";ratie and the Privy Council, and wished to ask it arty Report Ltd been drawn up on the subject by either of these bodies? The CIIANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUIPAI was not pre pared to give an answer to the question. lle was net aware :tut a Report from either of the bodies which had been men :.eued was about to be laid before the House. MISC ELL A N I Ex. 'Upon the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHE CZCER, the !louse agreed, at its risinz, to adjourn until Mon. 4.1 y r. x!. Lord - MANNERS moved, that there be laid before the House, a Return of the total quantity of Coals and Culm r7ted into the Principality of Wales during the years 1817, ISI3, and 1819, distinguishing the quantities of -each )ear, and Ihe amount of Duty paid upon the same.—Ordered. The House then resolved itself into a Committee upon the Insolv..nt De'otors' Continuance Dill, Mr. T. COCKTENAY in the u;uir. The Clauses of the Be. were read ; the House resumed, the Report was ordered to be reccrved on Monday. Mr. W. S ITIL moved for an Account of all Extents in Aid, issued from tie Remembrancers' Office in the Exchequer. Ir(In the let of January to the 31st of December, 1819, ludo sive.—Crilesed. LUSHINGTON moved far an Account of all Duties (hired, but not paid into the Exchequer. Iron tLe jth of April , cilu, to the sth of April, 1326.—Ordered. DIIGITS OF THE CROWN AND ADMIRALTY. Mr. lIROUGHAM raid, that in rising to bring before the House the very important subject, of which lie had given notice, as well as of the Civil List, which was couneetvel with it, he assured them it was far . . from his intention , :o trespass more upon.their time inquiry, he would not.proceed so far as to deny that than was absolutely necessary towards explaining the . a compensation ought not to be made for what might different points to which he should advert. He be taken away ; but he would maintain, that on every trusted the House would believe him, when he de. principle of law the right to them did not exist. In dared, that in bringing forward this gilt-lion; it was ancient times, it was well known, that out of the not a business of his own seeking. When the same lands of the Crown the Sovereigns were obliged to question was under consideration in the year 1812, maintain their splendour; but in those days of valid) he then told his Ma;esty's Ministers that he should, he spoke, when certain defined revenues were granted at some finale pesiod, call the attention of the to the Crown, they were not given for the personal House to it, in case they online:l to satisfy the Pub. pleasures of the King. No, they were placed under lic on the subject in the arrangements they were his direction, fir the special purpose of providing making. At that time he expressed an anxious wish for the eropense, of his Government. To support this that the Ministers themselves might bring forward assertion, he would cite one or two authorities—if, some proposition which would have a better chance indeed, the authority of any one were necessary to of being beaeficial to the Public than anything that produce belief to a proposition so obvious. Lord could have come from him. Ile also declared, that Cok.e said, that wrecks must rest in the Crown, be it svas equally foreign from his intention to suggest cause somebody must have the right of claiming anychiog to the House from which it might be sup-. them, and as r.o owner could be found, it followed, posed that his object' was to compass the degrada- ex necessitate rei, that they belonged to the King. tion of the Royal state and dignity, or to curtail any That great lawyer, however, went on to remark, that of those rights which properly belonged to the there were authorities against this doctrine, although Crown ; for the interest of the Nation required that he himself entertained no doubt upon the subject, the Monarch should be 'maintained in his just dig. because he knew that, in compensation for the bent nity and splendour. It informer times it was crimi. fits which the King derived from accidents on the nal to deprive the Crown of what was essential to its sea, he was bound to keep the narrow seas clear from security, to its power, and to the peace, the tranquil- pirates, This was the reason which had been urged lily, and good government of the realm, it would for vesting the ownership in the Crown, and so the be equally criminal to make such an attempt in times .Judges• declared with respect to other droits also. like these ; for the present were not times to tamper Of the Judges, however, Lord Coke mentioned, that' with the security of our constitutional establishments. Mr. Justice Crawley had. some doubts upon the point, lie always considered it to be safe and expedient not for, after admitting the doctrine, he said that the to degrade the Crown ; but to conform to the prin- Royal fish were not droits of the Crown, because ciples, and steer within the strict grounds of the Con- they were too small to belong to the King as Custos stitution. In what he had now to state to the House, of the Seas. The sturgeon and the whale, in his opi he should steer within those limits. There was no nion, were both too small for the use of the Sove occasion for him to enter into an exact account of all reign; but had the worthy Justice lived iirour time, the poi n ts which were connected with this subject ; and witnessed the millions of revenue which arise he should only proceed to shew allot some such ar- from the disposal of whales, his argument would rangement as to that to which he alluded, Was called have totally failed. lie wished, however, not to be for in the present situation of the country. It was misunderstood. He admitted, that, as the law at an established maxim, and a maxim that had been present stood, a peat alteration had been made in sanctioned by the greatest and most constitutional the arrangement of the revenue. lie need not say, lawyers of this country, that the Crown was inca- that the Crown had now no looger to defend the seas pable of possessing a separate property ; and that from piratical invasions, out of the revenues car no property which belonged to the Crown could be tied into its possession by virtue of the droits. No; considered as the private property of any individual all those conditions upon which the droits were first Sovereign. Originally the Kings of England were conferred upon the Sovereign were takeri away, step supposed to possess all the lands of the kingdom, by step, from the Crown, awl each expense alienated and to he held by the Monarch as jury Coroner. But from it. Yet it happened that one of these revenues, it never was considered that any Monarch had a right granted especially for the defence of the country, to appropriate those lands, to his own private uses.— and, as the Act of Henry VIII. had it, " for the tui- Even when api ivate individual, seized of lands in his tion and good government of the country," was still own private right, should afterwards become King, continued, although the service had not been per the right of those lands ceased with his power, formed. This, then, was the beginning, the middle, and the lands became the lands of the CrOwn. Such and end of his argument. But he meant not too was the case with the Duke of Lancaster, who was strictly and literally to follow this subject; it was seized of lands in his own right ; but when he became often the height of injustice, particularly in cases King, those lands belonged to the Crown, and were between the Crown and the People, to follow too no longer the private property of the Monarch. If a severe a line of policy—(Heer). It was, lie observed, statute gave lands- to the Crown, they could only one of those cases where the greatest injustice he held by the Sovereign in right of the Crown.-- too often arose from the strictest adherence to jus- This was a point so clearly laid down by the laws of tice. Prudence and discretion, and a regard for the the country, that there could be no doubt upon it. security of the State, often required that where a ba- He should state an instance in support of this princi- lance has been struck in remote times, it ought not pie. When James 1. gave to the Earl of Devonshire to be disturbed, because learning and ingenuity might certain old stores, which were considered to be the discover that it should not have been struck at all. treasures of the Crown, it was held that he could not For this principle he would ever profess the utmost convey away that property by his sign manual.— reverence. If arguments were necessary upon the When the executors of the Earl of Devonshire claimed subject, he should say, that reasoning and analogy, this property, the Judges, to whom it had been re- by which they should be governed upon this occa fel red, gave it as their opinion that these old stores sion, should be sought for in the dealings of the were the treasures of the Crown—that they were the people with some other great corporation ; and if he ligaments of peace, the sinews of war, and intended could shew that between this Public and the Church for the protection of the realm ; and that they should Establishment sotne tangible analogy might be traced, go to the successor of the King ; or, in other words, he trusted they would give it their maturest cousi that they were the property of the Crown ; and they deratioti. It was well known that tithes were not held, that the only warrant by which that treasure originally the property of the Church for ecclesias could be possessed by a private individual, was a tical purposes only, for they were then burthened warrant under the Great Seal and Privy Seal. This with provision for the poor, and each parson was was the opinion of that profound laWyer, Lord Coke, bound to maintain the - poor. By degrees, it was and all the other legal authorities agreed in the same found that the provision left at the disposal of the opinion. Ile should mention another case. Lord ciergy was incompetent to the maintenance of the Ashley had obtained, under the sign manual of the - poor, particularly after the violence of henry VIII. King (Charles 11.) certain prizes which had been had deprived the clergy of their great resources. It taken from the Dotch ; upon which Lord Clarendon was therefore not deemed proper that tire law of remonstrated with the King*; he told him, that if tithes should be literally acted upon, and in process such a transaction could be allowed to take place, his of time the claim which the Public had upon the Msjesty might be abominably cozened by persons Church to. support the poor was abandoned. Here who would seek for grants of that kind; and that then was the analogy. Originally tithes were bur there was no way by which they could be made, ex- thened with provision for the poor; so the droits of cept by the Great Seal or Privy Seal. When Lord the Crown were charged with the expenses of keeps Ashley remonstrated against this opinion of Lord ing the seas clear. Step by step, during the reigns Clarendon, that great and constitutional Judge was of Mary, Elizabeth; James, &c.—for it was wrong not more courteous to him than to his Sovereign, for to suppose that the measure was the effect of one Act— a bargain was effected between the laity and he told him that it was an unnatural privilege; and that Lord Ashley might live to repent the day he had the clergy, that the former should support the poor. taken the grant. These cases, with others which Let then the' analogy be continued ; let the revenue might be quoted, clearly proved that no King of be discontinued, since the charge to defroy which revenue waogranted had been taken up elsewhere, England had any property which was not the pro perty of the Crown. A great inroad, however, had and let a composition be concluded. flow this corn been made upon this principle of our Law and position was to be paid—what was to regulate its Constitution ; and, he was sorry to say, it was one amount—whether or not it should be more or less in of a recent date. It was made by Mr. Pitt in the year time of war than in peace—were points upon which 1799, when, for the first time, an Act was passed, he did not intend then to trouble the House. He which enabled the King to deal with his lands and wished only to have the general proposition counte r chattels, just as if they were his own private property. 'lanced by the House, that some arrangement was All the principles of the Constitution were completely necessary. It was natural to believe that all who 1 1 upset by this enactment; and, after this, Gentlemen considered the subject of the Civil List, must at once talked of the dignity of the Crown! What would see that nothing could be worse for the intelligibility Lord Coke and Lord Clarendon have said to such a of the subject, for the dignity of the Crown itself, 1 law, which, by enabling the Sovereign to'Zfispose of ; and for the comfort of all whose business it is to en-' his lands and goods, went to put him on the footing I tertain the matter, than the whole manner of the ar- 1 of any common individual!—a law by which he rangernent of the -Civil List, as it at present stood. might, if he chose, give away the property of the Suppose any person, not acquainted with the minis- Crown to favourites, or even to enemies, contrary to tie of finance, were asked how much money the the policy and constitutional principles of the coun- King of England had? it would be a difficult thing try! But what would they have said, if they heard for him to ftll ;it would be difficult for some of the that a still further step had been taken towards les- most experienced Members of that House to tell it, selling the dignity ot the Monarch? By the same even after a full half hour's computation. You can tell enactment, pnwers were given to the King to possess the amount of the provision for the French King— copyhold estates—nt hold these under his own sub- for the l'resident of the United States of America— jests. Aftcr this, would Gentlemen talk of the dig- and a Dutch Stadtholder—you can at once declare nity of the Crown ?—(!leer, shear). As to the para. for all, .except a King of England !—(llear, hear). cular funds which should be the object of the present 1 And the consequence was, that the arrangement for him was the subject of daily blunders; and. in its Gothic obscurity and consequent mismanagement, became injurious to the dignity of the Crown. When Paine wrote his book, he complained that a King of England was the most expensive Magistrate to be found in Europe; " because (said he) the country pays about ten or twelve hundred thousand pounds a- year for governing the kingdom. I could find (said he with his usual coarseness) an able-bodied man that would do the business for £5OO a-year!"—(A laugh). The serious part of the matter was this, that not ore man in a million was able to contradict the gross misrepresentation, or to expose the error of the writer. And why not ? Suppose a person were to tell Paine, or an advocate of his, that he Was greatly mistaken in his sta:ennent, for that the King enjoyed no :tuft sum as ten or twelve hundred thousand pounds a-) ear. " How do you know ?" the advocate would ray ; " because," says the other, the Civil List is not fur his own use ; for out of it he has to pay his Great Officers of State, Judges, Btc."----" Well, then, tell us how much for each ?" It was impossible for the antagonist to go any ferther; he could net tell, al most, unless he were a Chancellor of the Exchequer ; and even then the thing was extremely doubtful; at least he (Mr. Brougham) knew some Chancellors of the Exchequer that would find it difficult to tell ! (A laugh).—But the misfortune was, that thiesame mystery was kept up throngball the Civil List Acts, up to the present time. The title to these Acts usually contained the words, " for the better support of the honour and dignity of the Crown." Now would any man believe, that out of sums thus apparently placed at the disposal of the Monarch, sums of money were to be paid as salaries to the Great Officers of the State, to Judges, &c. Even in the Resolution of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, row on the table, occurred the same vague and inapplicable language. The Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Brougham), as a friend to the dignity of the Crown, would boldly demand was this fair play to the Monarch ? Was it fair to the dignity of the Crown, to mix up with the provi sion fur the maintenance of the splendour of 'the - Kingly office—the salaries of Judges—salaries fur other officers, both great and small incidental charges—occasional payments—Charges for arrears, &c. and allowances which it would be beneath the dignity of the subject to name? Was it fair to the dignity of the Crown, that these accounts should.be confounded with its own provision ; or was it more becoming that these accounts should be separated ? Did not every private man, anxious to have it in his power to gain at any time a knowledge of the state-, of his property, his profit and loss, labour to keep his accounts separately for that purpose? But this was not the advice of the Chancellor of the Exche quer. "No ;" the Right Hon. Gentleman would say, avoid this perspicuous arrangement—jumble all the accounts together, but do not separate them on any account !" The consequence would be, that the person, whenever he wished to ascertain the-relations of his accounts with each other, avoid be obliged to employ some able accountant to unravel them.— But then it was said that the dignity of the Crown required all this confusion and mystery. Even sup pose so—a little regard for popularity, for intelligi bility, demanded that this Gothic diTuise should be thrown aside. And, with respect to the dignity of the Crown, did it t eally tend to that object to em lbarrass the sources of its provisions —did, really, this confusion do more for the honour of the King, than for his Parliament to say, " Your Majesty shall be paid cheerfully, handsomely, and liberally, by a grant from the Consolidated Fund, amply sufficient for all the- purposes of your situation." But " No," said the Chancellor of the Exchequer, " this shall not take place—the allowance of the Monarch tee quires to be in a state of confusion—his dignity can tolerate nothing short of mystery." But then, in this prying age, people will turn their attention to an investigation of these matters for themselves; and by so doing will find out, unhappily, that the Monarch of this country, to whose dignity and honour the sacrifice of arrangement and perspicuity_ in his accounts had been deemed necessary, did not disdain to have a part of his revenue made up by a tax.of one penny in the gallon upon ale, and one halfpenny in the gallon upon whiskey ! Yet the Monarchs of former times did not perceive any de gradation in exchanging for a settled revenue de rived by these humble means, the gaudy and more unsettled profits of theif predecessors—those gems of feudal splendour, in which so much of their honour was imagined to consist, and of which they must have been so tenacious. Nor were out ancestors able to distinguish any danger to the dignity and respect of the Crown in this commutation—(Hear). lle held in his hand the Report of the Committee on the Civil List, the confusion of which was only _ to be outdone by that. of the Civil List itselE In this he found, that the provision for some of the branches of the Royal Family was charged partly on the Civil List, and partly on the Consolidated Fund. In fact, his Majesty bad recently been re commended to accept 100,0001. a-year from the Con solidated Fund, instead of the Civil List.—[lt was here intimated that this .recommendation was given up.j—At all events, it was enough for him to know, that the recommendation was made by a Committee, who thought it not unwise to have it carried into effect. •.The House, indeed, was not aware of the company his Majesty was forced to keep. He was obliged to associate himself with persons with whom A common. German Baron would be ashamed to be seen. In page 64. of the Appendix to the Report in the 7th Class, the first item which met his eye was the Vicar of the Tower, a great officer of State, I l supported in his dignifies+ station at a salary of 1/. 13s. Bd. a-year! The office was not very expen sive, and, indeed, he ought to be recommended as a most useful example of economy, This functionaey of State--this Vicar of the Tower—this digni tary of the Civil List, seventh class, for the classes lose upon each,other in dignity—ootwitlastandins 411 2 4 • f ►7l ;41 pet Od. :I—* Low.. ,SL ler, had! 17 , at. i