Star. — London, England, 1812-04-25 00:00:00

General Tatiit . jtlrtetittdas wets ordered to * lie en the table. The CHANCELLOR of. the EXCHEQUER gave notice, l i m a be would move for a Vote of Thanks to the F.arl of Wel lington, and the Gallant Army who bail taken Badajqz by storm, 03 Monday n eat, (The seei,e veal felholvedly lea Cheer: ) CATHOLIC QUESTION. btitArt.: ) The motion for a Committee to inquire into state of the. Trish Catholics having been put from the Chair ; Sir WILLIAM SCOTT commenced with vindi cating the conduct of the illustrious University which la bad the honohr to represent (Oxford) froth some aspersions which were thrown out on the former night. in contradiction to these assertions he would state, that there was no community of Men more distin guished for their attachment to the Constitution,-- more unshaken in their fidelity to the throne, and more firm in their resistance to the demands of legal tyranny. They had ever been, a 1 the id forward asset.- r • rI• . •7 • ' - pended on advanta i ges • and disacNantiges i on be nefits and danger. The arguments against the clairls of the Catholics might be reduced to three classes— first, the danger to be apprehended • from granting them—secondly, the constitutional objections—and, thirdly, the doubt which was entertained of their ef ficacy, in case they should be granted. The clian;;es which had Of late years taken place in the world liad rendered the danger •considerable. There were no longer any apprehensions from the Pretender, &c. and as to the doubt which some persons enteitained of their oaths, the proposal of an oath as a protection against their alleged disregard of them was rather a clumsy expedient. The opinions of the Protestants of Ireland were now on the table of the House, and the advancement of the Catholics in power, wealth, and consequence, rendered their case still more wor thy of consideration. One argument had been re sorted to on a former occasion which made a great impression on his mind, and that was the assertion that the Union was a bar to the measure. For the - if '•he . , 111e : r 4 f, cr"gr"cf rieland looked up, in I all things,. to tie Pope. - The Pope was under the entire controul of Bonaparte,. and he must of course haste a corstiouT, to a certain extent, over the Catho lics, who were the slaves of their 'priests. Here we heard continual professions of liberty sent forth by, the Catholics ; and yet, strange as it may appear, these people, who pretended that they detested ty ranny s.) much, submitted without ccraplaint to the I dcgrading tyranny ey.eriised over them by their Priests, who looked up to no Patriarch in their own conrary, but to the miserable miscreants who had, at different times, filled the Papal Throne.— . A . 4reat (lei' if stress had been laid on the danger arising to the Empire, if the concessions in question were not granted ; what was this hut an ar gu me nt of intimid'ation ? And was this Government to be intimidated ? But suppose all these concessions were granted, would the Catholics then be satisfied ? No. They must then have an Ecclesiastical Establish ment. Tne Catholic Clergy would never be satisfied ill t• -.h tors o f civil liberty ante persona independence.— 1 propriety of this position he would refer them to the till such Establishment was formed ; nor would t hey With respect to their Petition on the subject before the i whole history of the transaction, to the 4th Article I be then satisfied, until they rooted the Protestant H ouse , i t was voted by a majorityof four to one, and iof the Union, and to the expectations which were i Establishment entirely away. The next step would t h e w h o l e number of persons who voted against it excited, and by means of which additional facility was be, a Catholic Party in Parliament ; and the Pro was b ut /4.. It was as fair a representation of the given to the passing of the measure. Under such ! testant Aristocracy, who were now such warm ad. sentiments of that whole body as he believed it was . circumstances, to turn round and say, the union was I vocates for Catholic Claims, would soon lose all of the educated part of the country in general. Upon a bar to concession, was impolitic, imprudent, unge- their importance. He would have nn objection to the question immediately before them, he should not nerous, and unjust. He was told by some that the sit in Parliament with any Gentlem an, were he to trouble them at any length ; he could not help con- h mass of the population was indifferent to it, and from I pray ten times a day to the Virgin Mary, and to sidering it as one which was reticulated only to excite I others he heard the reverse ; but when reasoning for 1 every Saint in the Calendar, provided he abjured his t h ose passions which must disturb the public tran- himself, he saw the marked distinction in force ; he 1 allegiance to the Pope ;—he meant a foreign Pope. quillity, and to hazard the calamity of setting fire to could not believe that they had not a wish to partici- —Let the Catholics have a Pope in Ireland, at ; t he country. There was no probability of their coming pate in the rights and privileges of the constitution. Ballyshannon, or any othe• place in the island, if this year to a different determination froM that to —He then entered into a de.ail of all the exclusions they chose ;—but as long as they gave allegiance which they had come in any of the preceding years, under which they laboured in the Army and Navy to an Italian, 'Jr a Frenchman, he would never y e t they were told every year that must be done.— and at the Bar, and maintair.ed that they ought to give them any political power in the State. For The constant answer of the Legislature to such go into a Committee. Before they could decide what these reasons he would oppose the motion for a threats, was that it should not be done, so that the securities would be necessary, they should have the Committee. effect of those repeated applications was to keep up a information of those who were most conversant with Mr. BROUGHAM,. in rising for. the purpose of continual warfare between the Legislature and the the tenets of the religion, which could only be done replying to an Hoio,urable and Learned Baronet Petitioners. It had been said that there was no cla- in a Committee of the whole House. He wished to (Sir W. Scott), felt much anxiety, when he remem. triour ; but though there was no clamour, there might see the country as powerial as possible, and for hared that he was fallowing the eloquent opener of be strong sensation, and he was confident there was. that purpose he would recommend that the Church the discussion (Mr. Grattan), who had said all that —But had the Petitioners brought the question any should throw open wider doors of toleration. They man could say in favour of the motion. He had the nearer to an adjustment than in former instances ? might depend, that by the present system they did two most zealous opposers (Dr. Duigenan and Sir Had they offered those tecurities which might have not make one praselyte from the Roman Catholic re- W. Scott) of the Catholic cause, but he had in vain a tendency to allay the apprehensions entertained by ligion—they might make' a chasm in the mind, looked for any thing like solid opposition. Decia- I some? Or had they not, on the contrary, refused all which they could not fill up as they pleased—they mation on visionary dangers, and unjust insinuations 1 securities, even those which they were willing to have might destroy those materials, of which they mi g h t against the Catholics, formed the burden ot all they conceded before ? So far from granting any security, have constituted a tower of strength ; but they could had said. The insinuation thrown out against the they accompanied their claims with an explicit decla- accomplish nothing for the good of society by perse- Catholics—that when they got possession of political ration, that their Church should have a marked pub- vering in so erroneous a course. With respect to the power they would not stop there, but would imme lic encouragement.; must it not be apprehended, allusion to the last Administration, all they did was diately proceed to the overthrow of the Protestant that this request Must mean, in other words, a snarl:- to keep off the question, in consequence of the preju- Church—was unjust and ungenerous in the extreme. ed public discouragement to the established religion dices known to exist against it ; and he was one of And this insinuation too, was founded on an anony of the country ? The time had not long passed, when those who gave the Roman Catholics such advice, mous two-penny pamphlet that had been somewhere it was thought a fundamental principle of the Con- but the present was a more auspicious period ; the picked up by the Learned Civilian. In refutation stitution, that the civil fabric should be combined Prince Regent, to whose hands the Government was of that insinuation, lie would refer to the records of with a religious e s t a blishment ; b ut now they were now entrusted, possessed the confidence, and excited Parliament—to the Statute Books, where would be told, it was an absolute theory. He would ask in re- the expectations of the country ; it was a golden op. found oaths that were now taken by the Catholics. ply to those enlightened speculators, who would se- portunity not to be lost. To refuse the motion would By an oath they abjured all hostile notions towards Kate them, Could Roman. Catholic Chancellors, be neither more nor less than to refuse to consider the Protestant Church, with the view of establishing Roman Catholic Privy Councillors, and a Roman the question. their own religion. Such an oath was administered Catholic Parliament Le considered faithful guardians Mr. YO RKE complimented the temper and mode. to every Catholic in fact, yet was such an insinuation of a Protestant morwel l y ? He wa s s u r e that nothing ration of the Right Hon. Gentleman, and wished that tiirown out against them. But oaths even were not could be more at he a rt w i t h C at h o li cs , if they were such a disposition hed been more generally observed sufficient to demonstrate that the Catholics had not sincere, than the extinction of the Protestant Religion• on this question. He wished the measure could be so deeply rooted a hatred of our Church as to induce When he looked 'at the genius of Catholicism, at the granted with safety, for he possessed every favoura- them to conspire at its overthrow," for, it was said, excinsive spirit with" which it was imbued, and the ble di s p os i t io n t owar d s hi s b ret h ren t h e C a th o li cs of if they are true," conscientious" Catholics they must general principle it adopted, that there was no salva. Ireland. When he and those who thought with him aim et its destruction by all manner of means. If tion out of the pale of:the church, be must say they were represented as labouring under a cloud of pre- they could act contrary to their oaths—if they could were not safe hands to be entrusted with the care of jud ice, he thought the char g e might be easily retorted not keep their hands off our Church, then in what a the establ:shed religion. As to what had been said as it depended upon the arguments to be adduced. state of danger must that Church be! The meeting respecting the Church of licothnd, it bore no appli- The subject was most important, but it appeared to of Committee in Dublin, of Tolls, for an election of cation whatever to the Catholic Church, for there was him to lie within a ve r y nar r ow compass. Those a Member then must our Church be in danger. If a spirit in all branches of protestentism which allied who differed from the m o ti o n misfit be permitted, danger to our Church were to be apprehended, one them nearer to e ac h ot h er , an d ren dered each less without being called Prates:alit bigots (a term very hundred Protestant members might do it just as well dangerous to the rest.- They had to decide upon one liberally bestowed), to pause before they agreed to as one hundred Catholic rapresentatives. Isy wealth, or two pronsikiens, whether all religions were the an alteration of the fundamental laws of the realm. I country, power, and inclieetion, the people of Ireland same, eaai entitled to the same encouragement ; or He we; surprised to hear it stetted that the question formed one sect ; but the effect o our wide-spreading uir.Ther, if one was preferable to another, it might had nothing- to do with fundamental law, and pro. penal code was, that it separated the nation into two not be unsafe to trust it into the hands of those who ceeded to read s ome e xtracts from the Bill of Rights, sects. Other sects might be freely and lavishly en were devoted to its destruction ? When it came to from which he inferred it to be a fundamental law couraged, but to theCe.tholics they dealt out nothing be t a question how far the securities we had should be of this country that w e s h o uld be ruled by a Protes- but cheerless and eternal exclusion. But it ought to given up, it was a grave consideration for every man's tam King, and that Papists should not govern the be remembered, that both our Church and State had own mind. It was easy to compose a declamation, country. The onus probandi lay, he thought, with been brought into danger by what had been called though not of so brilliant a description as they had those who supported the measure, to sbew that no " Independent" Dissenters. It was but too true, as heard upon this subject ; there. were general princi- danger would result from it. He, for one, was far had been said by a Right Honourable Gentleman, pies, pl aus ibl e i n t h eory, b ut i n j ur i ous i n the practi- from being satisfied on that point. He next quoted that the Catholics had not the benefit of the Trial by cal application, on which it was not difficult to make the Acts of Union with Ireland and Scotland, which Jury ; assuredly they had not when that Jury was a display; but he wo u ld re f er ever y man to his own provided that the Protestant religion should be that packed by a Sheriff, to whose feelings the name of historical reflection, to determine how far power con- of the State. It was not a question of right or tole- Catholic was abhorrent. 'Could any thing be more fined upon such a sect would be likely to promote ration, but of political power. If this was done for disgusting or abominable than the system of exclu those interests to which he was attached by educe- the Irish Catholics, it should be done for those of i sion that was persevered in ? Could any thing be tion and convi ct i on . They were told, that to accede England also, a body who had conducted themselves more rational ? He would beg leave to read to the t • ° the motion would have a tendency to reconcile the in the m os t loy a l, pe acea bl e , an d contente d mann e r . i House a passage from a publication which some time minds of the people. In his opinion, the tendency His opinion was, that ail those laws could only be 1 Duigenan was affixed, Pauick Duigenan, but since appeared in Irelanc, and to which the name of wculd be di rec tl y t h e reverse; t h e C omm i ttee wou ld j ust i fied by necess i ty. Going in to Co mm i ttee for i cer be afoot f or p arty quest i ons an d i n fl ammatory mat- the sake of information, g a , would lead to endless dis- 1 tainly not the name ot the Right honourable and • In all ci v ili se d countr i es , some re li g i on must putes and em b arrassment. Those tenets which were I Learned Doctor, for the pamphlet contained senti ire secured in the . predominance ; and whatever they not acte d upon in , the Catholic Church, but which means diametrically opposite to th o se whi ch the R i ght Might say of t h e benevolence of mankind, and the as long as human nature con- were never distinctly abrogated by the Pope, might, Henourable and Learned Doctor was now in the mild spirit of religion, he thought, be acted upon, if circumstances should habit of promulgating. (The Honourable Member timed to be what it was, religious parties would be- arise to call for them, at least, we had no security I then read a passage irom a pamphlet, in which-it "me political parties. Parties of this description a -e i • He • gai st it. was one of those wholooked forward . ! was allowed, that if the Catholics gave such security were the more virulent and dangerous, as they were not confined to the higher classe • s alone, but extended to the ultimate union, as he might call it, of Protes-1 to the Government as they were now understood to they would be entitled to the removal of the their influence to every individual .in the State.— tam and Catholic ; but the more he thought upon ;offer, Another argument the subject, the more he was induced to believe that I disqualifications which they sough; for.] He would, insisted on was, that Ireland in the name of the Irish Catholics. exclaim against would be lost ; that the whole country would be loft Lis first opinions were hastily taken. He then quot- I ! the violation of an early friendship which had sub if concessions were not made. But how was he to cd the letters which passed between the Vicars Apos- i colic and the Catholic Committee, respecting the oath sisted ; he would be understood as only animadvert- Understand,,, this thre at ? did t h e a ll eg i ance o f the I proposed in Lord Redesdale's Bill, to sliew the i ing on it as feeling with the Irish Catholics. With Hon. Gentlemen sit so l oose u p on t h em as to permit ' 1 ascendancy of the Catholic Clergy over their flock, i him all faith had been broken ;—(Hear, hear) —and them to decline the defence of the State in such anit now remained to be seen if it was possible to re event ? If so , he. the Clergy having proscribed and forbidden the oath' far from 0 , must- be permitted -to say, that so being an argument in favour of the privi- I 1 notwithstanding the clear arguments of the Commit- cover the ground we had lost. , tee its its favour. He believed the Popish Church of Mr. LESLIE FOSTER contended, that the Ca kyr t s . d emanded, . it went directly in the other way, 1 Ireland was/he most bigotted to the See of Rome tholicism of Ireland was different from that of other It heir loy a l ty hung. so . l oose a b out t h em , they of any Popish church that ever existed in any coon- countries. 'The Hon. Gentleman commented at should be the last persons entrusted with political i some length on the intolerant behaviour of the Ca. r , wer. The question, he thought, should be laid try. The Catholic Laity of Ireland were ready to j i give up the Veto, but the Clergy would not give it . tholic Parliament of James the Second, during that p one way or-other, and while he gave creditl Monarch's short and tumultuous stay in Ireland.— ' u p , And, from all these and many other things, it to the Hon. Gentlemen en the other sid e , fo r th e i r '• ' • Clergy devotedthe See , They legislated an Act, whereby they took from the attention w as evident that the were to to the public quiet while in office, by omit- - tin f Rome, and that they exercised an absolute dome- 1 Protestants their Act of Settlement, conceded to them g to bring forward this question, he trusted their in a former reign, thereby destroying the surety of sentiments would not change with change of situa- l o tion e the people. Now that the Pope was a : . prisoner, it was remarkable that none of them had i inheritance descending to their children. Happily Lion, and that on reflection they would see the im. for the Protestant interest, the overthrow on the propriety of pres s i ng i t f orwa rd at present . come forward to express an opinion on that event , or i ' to fix on any plan by which a new election of a Pope j Banks of the Boyne restored them once more to their Mr. ELLiarr agreed fully in the veneration • as evi expressed by the Ri h e t Honourable Gentleman for might take place. From every thing, it sr 'dent ' privileges and to their peace. Such had been the that Bonaparte wanted to have the election of a Pope I conduct of the Catholics when they represented the the University o f - _ Oxford, and tho u ght the delay of in his own hand • that he wanted to have a complete : People, and We had no surety now but their send their . present petition an additional claim to appro- hands .; bauon, by si If th controul over the papacy ; and therefore he did not '-moots continued the same. We had received no in this great gni I eassi mg e march of tsuth and reason choose that Bonaparte (our bitterest enemy) should concessions from Ireland e and were desired to make canse. H e di sc l a i me d a ll n oti on of dis- be the keeper of the consciences of three-fourths of i them to her. The experiment they demanded of the leg the merits of the question upon the ground the people of Ireland.—(Hear, hear.)—No, he would Peotestants was dangerous, especially at a tune when nlabstract right. Thi s quest i on) like all others, dc- never consent to such a thing. The idea was not they appeared wiling to take all from times they ap. plied to, wk:tont conectlintz them any thTng n return. if they would resign the dominion cf a foreigner' over their minds—if they would shake the (hints of bigi:ry from around their necks, And enter into a cordial co-veration vith their 'Protestant brethren.., then wits the time for conceding towards them. an 3. not till then. He concluded by strongly giviag his . dissent from the naltinn, Mr. GRATTAN said, from the expressive eye which the Honourable Gentleman had cast toward* him in a particular part of his speech, he was led to 'suppose that the Houourable Gentleman beleved he h:&d quoted an opinion of his (Mr. Grattan's) cor rectly. He could only inform tile Hon. Gentleman that it was a total misreprzsentation. Mr. SHAW (of Dublin) said he had formerly dis. puted the propriety of conceding to the Catholic claims ; but now, upon more mature deliberation, he had become more favourable towards the measure. —Contemplating the Catholics as forming a strong body in the Brhish Empire, he was willing to heat ken to their grievances, and for that purpose was desirous of going into the proposed Com.nittee. Rrt:rectiiig the Dublin Petition, he had. n:-1 seen it till within these few days ; but he could assure the Right Hon. Gentlemen on the opposite Bench, that upon exami nation he had found the signatures of many•of the most respectable mercantile gentlemen in that city annexed to it. His judgmcnt might be erroneous, but his anxious wish was to give tranquillity to Ire. land, under the influence of which be would rote fur the motion. Colonel DILLON said he represented a eounty mhere the whole of his constituents were Protestants. possessing a hereditary disinclination towards the Ca tholics, yet so far were they influenced by the pre. priety of their fellow-countrreen's claims, that they had not only relaxed from their accustomed severity of demeanour, but had actually drawn up a Petition requesting a concession of these claims on the part of the Geverarnent. Thie Petition they committed to his hands, and which he plesented to the Prince Regent. Sir SAMUEL ROMILLY said, from the time that he had became possessed of a seat in the Parlia ment, he had always silently toted in favour of the Catholic claims, because he reverenced the minds of the persons who maintained the propriety of con ceding to our eottntrymen's claims, and refrained from speaking, because he had melting remarkably to enforce. But he had now come fully prepared to • display his opinions. and the motives which actuated him in the vote which he was prepared to give. He did this, because he was conscious that no person • could bestow a vote favourable to the present melon, but who would have his conduct traduced in a most uncandid manner. lie was justified in asserting this, from the scrutiny in the Awning Papers, in one of which was mentioned, that a certain person, in a vote he had given, had renounced his religion. Of him self, he would say, for he was perhaps the person meant, that the intolerance of the Roman Catholics a century and a half ago, had made his forefathers martyrs to their belief as Protestants —had driven them from their native land ; but he, their descendant. was not willing to become a persecutor himself, be cause through his ancestors he had suffered prosecu tion. Having thus mentioned his motives, he would address himself to the proper subject. The simple quese lion before them had been endeavoured to be consi dered in a light less pleasant than a tolerating one ; but as a question of toleration he would contemplate it, not withstanding all the artful arguments which had en deavoured to overturn it. He was happy to find that the time was now arrived, when those strong obsta cles that impeded its progress formerly were t4moved, and a Catholic might safely be allowed to support the Government in such a manner as would shew ef fectually that religious liberty was what he had con tended for. Could it be for a moment contended, the present was a political question alone, then they would be told, that disqualification for office was not a penalty. Could it be contended, that when cer tain Acts prevented a man from honestly rising to the highest offices of the State, that he had not penalties imposed upon him ? While the honest ambition of gloriously distinguishing himself in the service of his country, and the amiable hope of transmitting an honourable name to posterity, were alike denied him, were not these penalties ? To cut off the hopes of warming his children's cheeks with a glow of exultation at the mention of theirfe ther's name in some glorious achievement, was not that a penalty ? (Hear, ;scar.) Such a political stigma degraded the natural erect aspect of man, and all be cause he worshiped his Ceueeent in a manner accor dant to Isis own feelings, and dared to think in reli gious matters for himself. He would ask the Hon. Geetletnen on the opposite Bench, who had distin guished themselves in the same profession as himself, would they have aspired at the Bar, had they been conscious of never being able to arise beyond a cer tain height prescribed by law ? Where then would have been the Hales, the Holts, and the Somerses, the immortal ornaments of their profession, had they been Catholics ? They would have beers found sta tioned at a certain height in their studies, selling out words, while other men, possessed of less favourable moral endowments, would have been rising resplen dently above them. He was much surprised in hear ing the concluding serrence from the Honourable Gentleman who had spoken last from the benches on the opposite side, because, from the complexion of his speech until the very conclusion, he was led to expect a more favourable vote to the present motion. All his quotations had appeared agaiu.t him, and he had applied them in a manner which seemed to threaten no hostility to the motion. From a contemplation of the celebrated work of the Bishop of Manx, against the Protestants, he perceived, that the Catholics of the, present day had features of a most mild and benig. nant nature, in comparison with the Ronsish believer of the good Bishop's times. Now, the speech of die Hon. Gentleman opposite, had maialy tended to rake up the crimes of other generations against au unhappy people ot the present day, believing, perhaps, that by stirring up amongst the Protestants a sad re membrance ot their ancient compleints, their judg ments would assume a bias and a partiality not very favourable to a nation of conciliation and brether hood. Unless he had the belict that the relation ref such unhappy transactions would infliience the inde matt of the House, to whet purpese else cr old to quote the calamities 'which the Protestants L.tu str!. tared ? The Anabaptists of the present day were a sect as pure as the zearrality of reltgicus.iects, but