Star. — London, England, 1813-03-23 00:00:00

-- - • was do considstatibti earl re *redid intidce Lim to resort to any thing so base and degrading. He well knew, also, bow much the bare suspicion of such prac tices must have injured his character in that quarter, i where it was supposed he wished by such means to tecommend himself—The House then adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Lord C. FITZROY presented the Report of the Coinmittee on the Seaford Election, which declared the Sitting Members poly elected, and the petition not frivolous and vexatious. A new Writ was ordered for Rye, vacated by Mr. Wetherell, w ho w a s returned for another place. A Petition was presented by Sir E. KNATCHBULL frbm Merchants, &c. in the neighbourhood of Graveiend, for con tinuing the East India 'i rade in the Port of London. b e Report of the Committee on the subject of the proposed Docks, &c. in the Isle of Dogs, wat moved for, and afterward /Drought up by Alderman Atkins. In a Committee of Supply, Mr. Wharton moved for 5,000,0001. for payment of oustanding Exchequer Bills. Agreed to. Lee's Patent Bill was read a second time, after some carver cation between Mr. Courtenay, Mr. D. Giddy, Sir R. Peek, Mr. C. Wynne, Mr. J. P. Grant, &c. it was reteßed to a Coma =lure above stairs. Mr. CANNING, after observing that he had been returned ,for Liverpool, moved for a new writ for Sligo, for which place he had also been elected, but for which be had vacated his seat. Mr. PRENDERGAST presented a Petition irons certain merchants, and others, in London, praying that Indian free ships might continue to hold the privileges which they have hitherto Lel& Mr. Alderman ATKINS moved for leave re bring In a Bill to provide against the Abuses which had taken place at Weymouth and Mrlcombe Regis, forilie purpose of multiplying votes. Mr. C. WYNNE, though he had net yet a decided opinion on the subject, saw sonic objections to the restriction of the right of electloo, which extended more widely there, than in any other places, except London. Leave was given. The Bill was brought in, read a first time, end ordered w be read a second time on Monnay next, and to be printed. The Insolvent Debtors' Bill was read a second time, and com mitted ter the 3d of May. The report of the Dental Inclosure Bill was ordered to be considered on the Sd of May. Mr. BANKES postponed the consideration of the Report of the Sinecure Abolition Bill till that day se'tinight. On the motion for the third reading of the Felony and Petit Larceny EIJI, sir C. Moritaunt objected so it. Mr. X enrich stated his willingness to accede to some amendntents; and the Sd naduig was postponed to the yd of May. - CORN TRADE 'OF IRELAND. Sir H. PARNELL rose uo move, pur+uant to notice, for a Committee on the Corn Trade of lielacd. A main obje. r with him was to inquire into the export trade. From the depreciation in the value of money, the prices were by no means equivalent to what they were when originaby fixed; he should, therefore, move tut the appointment of a Select Committee, to inquire into the Corn Trade of fret/tad, and to report thereupon to the House. Mr. Alderman ATKINS tkought the subject of equal impor tance to Greet Britain as to Ireland, and should, therefore, move an Anandment, that the wurd " Ireland" be left out, for the pur r ust of instrting the words , µ the United Kingdom." Sir li . k N ARELL had no objtction to make his Motion more general, and thc Amendment was accordi..gly can-led. Ihe Mullets for the Pity of Lon'don and for the County of Norfolk were added to the Committee. PRINCESS OF WALES. CeitiinkS atin.l4ted 01, he *is Seeplisett to tutei Lin Hon. Friend think that there was even a possible ii uracy in the. paper he had read the other night/ A .3endernan, he had said, bad giten it tti him, ofd otiose honour and veracityhe relied ; but even that vas hardly a sufficient inducement for the strong ob. ervations he bad made. But then there was the ,:rong declaration of the CiimmissiOners I In what A situation must any man be, in , such a trust, if lia- Ole to such correetidni ? The honour and charactiee of the Lord High Chancelldr, the Lord Chief Justice of the 'King's Bench, of the Secretary of State, of the First Lord of the Treasury, were all called in question, merely upon the after-recollections of Mrs. Lisle. He believed Mrs. Lisle , to be a most respec table woman ; he had seen her, and he was acquain ted with her connections; but nothing should induce him to take the after-recollections of any person against what was sworn to and signed before a Court of Justice. • All this, on the part of his Hon. Friend, was;nothing more than a mistake : the best of men. were liable to be misled : their judgments might be imposed upon, and he thought his *Hon. Friend might as well give up the matter. Mr. WHITBREAD was sorry to incur the cen sure of his Right H , n. Friend ; but he had acted on sufficiently mature reflection. He should, therefore, send the paper to Ms-s. Lisle, and ask her whether she believed or acknowledged that the questions were put ? whether she would assert that they' were put to her in the course of her examination ? If he had been misled in supposing that the questions might have been put down as well as the answers, it was through seeing that mode practised in various other cases. He referred with pain to one case where it was done—he meant the proceedings on the Tenth Report, in. which every question was put down. If Mrs. Lisle should say they were asked, then he should request her to state when she recorded them. In that lease, he shouts not think himself so Wrong as others did. He had had no notice hitherto taken of what he commented upon, not any demal sent to him, nor r had he heard of any public notice of the matter till just then. Till he had made the inquiries he had now mentioned, he should deem himself blameable, in acknowledging ai an imposition, what had not yet been proved to be erroheous And false. - Mr. BRAGGE 13A.THURST said, that the prin ciple of taking down questions, alluded to by the Hon. Member, would affect half the judicial pro ceedings of the country. He (Mr. Whitbread) must know, as a Country Magistrate, that answers were taken down without the questions. It was the same .with the summing up of the Judges, who took down only the substance of the evidence. Ought this paper to be sent to Mrs. Lisle for her recollections, after the Noble Lords disci timed it ? Nobody up to this time, let it be observed, had authenticated the sup posed document. The Hon. Member had not ascer tained whether it came from the only person who could give to it any shadow of authenticity. It could not be authentic : at the best, it was but the recol lection of a witness brought up to contradict what had been regularly recorded. He had strong objec tions to her recollections concerning what had been read to her, and signed by her own hand. Such things occasioned the most unpleasant circumstances. Mr. WHITBREAD said, he had abstained from doing any thing till he should know that the paper was disclaimed: He now heard that it was a false fabrication. For his own part, lie did not yet feel himself ready to say this. Mr. WHITBREAD rose, and observed, that. he had read part of a paper to the House the other night on the subject of .the examination into the con. i ! duct of her Ito) al Highness the Princess of Wales he had then stated, that if he - should find that any imposition had been practised upon him, he would i readii) and publicly acknowledge it in his place.— He had just learnt, froM a short report, that a high Aultiorit) in another place had, in a very temperate ava), teclarechbat paper to be a fabrication from be ginning to end- an entire falsehood— and had impu ted weakness to him for having used it. - -He (Mr. Whitbi ead) had discovered no additional reasons for supp sing that the questions stated !in the paper in question were ina put; except in this disclaimer of them, and was declai aural of the falsehood of the statement, made in a coarter to 'A hiCh it would not be guise regular for bun more particularly to He tett, ,heretore, under these circumstances, that it would be but justice in him! to apprise the. •witness, Mrs. Lisle, of the matter. and it she also .!isclaiined it, then the disavowal woul.. be complete, and he should I be very ready to acknowiedge that he had been posed upon. Bu, until' she hid seen t! , e . se questions and answers, which N ere st.,ted to be impositions upon ! him, and until he bad riceived her answr-i ri.spect- i ing them, he must suspenii tne declaration , lief in the imposture. As for the /locus., nt, wid- ! ever it might be, he h .o neii her bought it nor sought' it. He had not rece:iett it fr m tie Princ:?ss tN Wales, nor from .:ny person in an official situation,. or connected with politics or puhlic lite. He should believe that an imposition h.d been practised when he should find t h at all the five persons, the four Loins Commissioners and 'oils. .I_,isie, concurred in stating theparticuiars to be tatse. In suspending at pret•eht an acknowledgment of imposition, an oppor tunity unfortunately w.;ind be soon afforded him by the intended motion on Wednesday nest, for stating what he kne\v, and what were his view of the sub ject: Should th motion be ..vi.loiraven, he should take another opportunity'of explaining himself. - Lord CAS TLEREAGH observed, that such great inconveniencies arose from incorrect and irre gular statements, that it was highly desirable, that any Getitl. man should ascertain, on such occasions, that he was making use of an authenticated ch.cu- ITICIar. • Mr. WHITBREAD remarked, that there wax a diffrience between an authenticated, and an authen tic document. Lord CASTLEREAGH observed, that an im., pression had been made on the public mind,shat the Commissioners did present a report with depositions, utittli, it that paper were authentic, were not in strict conformity to the nature of the evittence received by thm. WHITBREAD said; the question was, whe ther the answer was, or was not given to a corrected tot stion ? What he had stated was, that the-depo sitioil would have been different, if taken correctly from the evidence, as stated in the paper of which he had read some parts. Mr. 'TIERNEY remarked, that in such cases of in testigation, it was not the practice to put down the questions. No minutes of questions to Mrs. Lisle, in the course of her evidence were taken; but her answers were written down, a nd w ere then all read over to I her ; after which she signed the deposition. He was sorry to be obliged to differ frem his Hon. Friend; but he must ask him what doubt he could have upon l is ruind on the subject of the fabrication, unless he trie.tnt to go the ici:gtli f s•ipposing that the four • Lords Commissioners had any view of entrapping Mrs. Lisle ! Aiter the full assertion of the Commis sioners, that the evidence of Mrs. Lisle was taken as 44 ftrectir, AU point of form, as L &wore of the pro last' that bogy se ants of 14eitter ability and high,* character than the East - In is CoMpany. It was altilott impossible to pdint otit a country in *Pilch bn equitable system of goVerninent had keit iicr long and sp dndetiatingly maintained; and in ivhich so few acts of flagrant public delinquency had occurred. It did certainly happen, that from the liberality of their allciwances, from the class of individuals out of which they were Chosen, and from the whAesorne discipline which they received in theif official clinks, that few govern ment, amid exhibit so many examples of efficient public servants abroad as the East-India Company ; and he should do injustice . both to the individuals j conceited, and to his own feelings, if he did not allow that the same remark was applicable to their servants at home. While his official duties more intimately connected him with India affairs, he had enjoyed fre quent opportunities of judging of the habits of busi ness, not only of the heads of departments, but of those by whom the Company were served in all their domestic branches; and his ftill conviction, founded on experience, was, that ni•body could be better served, no affairs could be more ably and more effi ciently• managed than the affairs Of the East-India House. This was his sincere feeling on the general subject ; and he trusted, therefore, that it would not be thought probable that he would embrace any pro; position calculated to subvert a system which, al though it might be lubject to the impertection of all human plans, had happily tended to accomplish the', great objects of its institution. If Government, however, feeling the necessity of some alteration in this system, correspondent to the necessitiz..s df the times, had proposed that alteration during. the exist ence of the Charter, for such advise they would have been responsible, and it-*ould have been incumbent 1 on them to make out a strong case. But now 1 nisters found themselves, at the expiration of the Charter, tree to judge what would be most advan tageous for the Company, for the Public at large, and fur so large a portion of the human race, as that .comprehended under the British Government in India. He was acting under a conviction that the proposition he should bring forward was both safe and expedients and it it should be made appear to him that he was in error, by persons possessing better means of in formation than himself, he was prepared to adopt theft: views in preference to his own. No person could suppose that his Majesty's Ministers %km conciliating any existing interests. Their conduct was the result of a deliberate, conscientious, and vxtensive considera tion of the subject. Without being driven to the ne vssity of discarding the agency of the Company and adopting another instrument for the Government of India, we could pursue a middle course. As to the' continuance of the Charter in its present su.te, no ground of policy could be offered to Parliament in its support No principle could justify them in confining the current of a commerce so abundant and extensive within the narrow limits of any Company, however respectable. What reason could be offered for the ex clusion of a itish subjccts ? It has been objected that the Comp:my, in their corporate capacity, are ade quate to the whole of the East India commerce in its present state. But why must it be supposed sta tionary ? That commerce contains a principle of grow th which even the present system cannot com pletely restrain. Another i,bjection he would notice, • and admit to a tertain extent the probability, of great individual losses from extravagant speculation. But was it in refererce to unreasonable hopes and per- EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S CHARTER. sonal di3appointments that we should legislate for the I On the motion of Lied CASTLEREAGH, the commerce ot a great nation. This was neither the House then resolved itself into a Committee on the rule upon which to act, nor the criterion to judge. Oh :ti, that the Charter of th Affairs at the East India Com the subject oi commt:rce we sf..aild reason as we do in ()laser , / paeyn . His Lords East-India Com. hip war, where the sufferrigs and sacrifice of many pt gal , patty bei g on the eve of expir;ng, it felt to the lot Lint soldier are the means of producing national se of Pirliameet, under the direction and recommends. : cooly and national glory.—(Hear, world ear, h.ar.)—Hr of the Crown, to take into considerati , in the best ; particularly impress upon the House, the inherent i principle of increase in the commerce of India. 'llk means by which our extensive territory in India might private trade, within the last nineteen years, had henceforward be governed. In loci' diming to the ' House a subject ot such extraordinary magnitude grown to one-third of the commerce of the Com- and importance, it was im i iossible not to be struck Parry; yet the disadvantages and discouragement/ with the singularity of the case, that it shoull de- were obviously great, whew the ships were manned vplve on the supreme power in Great Britain, at the by a party that might be considered adverse. Re pref.. t moment, to deliberate on what should be the, girding the question in a national point of view, its m future system of government, in a country so mach magnitude appeared tar beyond the grasp and power exceeding in extent and population the parent state, of the Cumpany ; its continuance, therefore, must Hews ;:ersuaded that the Committee would feel, be injurious to the interests of the country and their that in addaion to the political there was a great mo i own. —(Hear, hear, hear.) —He ( Lord Castlereagh) ral trust. and that it etas incumbent on them to t•lposed in the British Legislature on this should, for the present, argue the question rather occasion: on - principle than in detail, as he should have fu weigh well . measures in which the interest and happi- turn o pp ortunities for a mo l e p articular and minute ness of so Large A portion of ' the human race were develorement. He should simply put the House involved. It was an unexampled feature in the his- in possession of his proposition, and he trusted the Huse would not conclude against it from his not e tory of Governments, that the p r osperity and happi ness of a limber of human beings, three-fold that of ering into detail. Whilst the public had conti ent the inhabitants of this country, should be confided to nued this boon to the Company, it was not with a view to their particular commercial interests, but the wisdom of the Legislature. He had no di ffi culty ,with an ultimate regard to other grand objects of in stating for himself, and for those with whom he national policy. Time Company 14d undertaken a had the honour to act, that if they could persuade hurthen crow beyond their strength to bear. One themselves that the arrangements which it was their evil in this respect arose from the defect of their ca intention to propose, would shake the existing system pital in proportion to a commerce so extended. This iin India; they would hesitate before they suggested detached theth from their most useful and appro. i any thing which might change a system which had priate concerns . . The private trade was not only com unquestionably answered all the great purposes of plaited of by those engaged in it, but carried on even Government to a degree rarely to be found in any with loss to the Company. The system, therefore, human institution, ind more especially in one of no was not only pernicious in its general operation, but very remote antiquity. But he begged leave to say, oppressive to the Directors. They would sacrifice that his proposition would not only abstain from of touching the principle of that system, but would ten- not only the commercial interests of the nation, but der it more applicable to the circumstances of the even their ',syn. He would rake a future opportunity of chewing that when their own capital stock was times. It was a proposition that he was persuaded found insufficient, they had recourse to the money would conduce to the prosperity, not only of India market in India, the only one optn to them, in order and the Empire, but to no branch of the general in- to support the existing fabric, th p ough reve the interest was terest more than to that of chi:East-India. Company themselves in their commercial capacity. His Ma- from 10 to 12 per cent. This nted them from jesty's Ministers had not been blind to the excellence directing and extending their commerce in the most of the institutions of the East-India Company—in- beneficial lines. Ot this China was a strocg ins'atice, stitntions which they were most anxious should not where they might otherwise have subdued all com e ete be dissolved. The Company had raised up an Em- non, and preserved their own advancement in i more steady course. It was new become necessary that the Aire unexampled in the world, and the government influx of national capital should be general and un of that Empire had been administered on principles r eminently conducive to the happiness of the Hume- restrained. Some system, whether that of 1793, or roue individuals living under it. It was a govern of 1802, was now become necessary. He trusted, from the union of interest that the various parties, ment founded on theory so wise, and brought to such were interwoven with the present 'ye practical perfection, that he did not believe the his them, all would conspire in approving the fined judg. tory of the world could exhibit its equal. It was a singular fact in the constitutional policy of India, anent of Parliament. He (Lord Castlereagh) shout. that in the administration over fifty millions of per- never think of proposing a complete change ot sys tem, the CoMany should mink roper to - sons, the number of civil servants employed by-the dicate the unless p Government, and sacrifice th ereby the g ab e Company did not exceed 1600 individuals. Few nerel interests ot the Empire. He would admit that European countries ever experienced ao mild a go the tranfer of such patronage without regulation, vernment, or one more advantageous to the inhabi. tants. AS tar as he bad an opportunity of judging, " (mkt be alarming to t k le 4 a g iala ; are • l i ar 414441 • he 'life recourse to 1 . 4 ii4pt thin e absolut as!iesil • • - —;•If such a moment of peidessity shduld at in demi arise, he had no doubt that; by the Wisdunt of meat, eiety diffictilty Might be Mrmountedi and evert* Constitutional jealousy disarmed: The dom.. piny declared themselies satisfied to sanction,a anon froni she ektablithed system in 180! If thei now say that they prefer retracting their foirnet cdn: cessions, than go on to the lerigth now proposed; it Was incumbent on them to make out a strong case indeed. He (Lord Castlereagh) Was await of An objection in the back ground, that the concessions to 'the Company would not be sufficiently liberal. This would be the subject of ftiture conibi t ration: Hie first Resolution should expreis a general declaration that the whole system should be continued, excepting only so far as it should be altered by the subsequent Resolutions. So far he would recognize the existing system; both in respect to the period of renewal and the general principle. The China trade should be exclusively confined to the Company i—they should have the sole importation of tea. He should not, how: ever, enter into d e t a il, b ut s h ou ld content hintself with declaring his opinion, that the existing system of trade with China was so generally beneficial, and any change appeared so hazardous, that it would not be for the wisdom of Parliament to Sanction any change. —lt would be advantageous to the Public to grant this exclusive trade, it would contribute to a joint fund applicable to the reduction or. the public debt. This led hint to a branch of the .iibiect which con tained in it 'lie great MASS of controversy. He wished tO.admil the private trader (proltih.t, d only front the tea trade, and the entnire of China) along the vast track contained between the Cape nt (;,.aa Hope and the Straights or Migellan, c..ntining the trade to British ships of 400 mos, or 339 re gistered burthen. He should not for the present mane the British vrts that should he Fps ned.— They should he provided t.;).'a docks and tvarehotiset for the security of the revenue. The sctectiiiii o! the outports should be made with as much lisp .nsibility :is possible. A Special Commilbsiun might be lip. pointed from the Treasury Board, arid the revenue secured liy an Order in Council. The unit excep tion he should propose was that of piece goods, which it smuggled into this country, would be very injurl ous to our manufactures, by an unfair competition and lower price. Those, therefore, should be prolii. bited from the ()worts. It must be satisfactory to the Company to know, that the Government wend equally interested with themselves in preventin. / smuggling. Tea, he would admit, was molt to he smuggled, but no greater facility would be given by openin i T the outports than existtd at present. Tea might easily be procured from America, and trom many European countries that traded with China, as . well as from the many islands open in the Pacific Ocean, but it was somewhat singul .r that the track chosen by the Company IT the importation of teal up the channel and rouni the foreland, was pecu liarly calcul ited to encourage smuggling. He, at first sight, thought some difficulty did exist in the mode of receiving, hut this difficulty disappeared on examining the book of rates. The articles rated ad valorem were comparatively inconsiderable. They might be changed, with a difference of only five per cent. to a ditty on the declared tale at Leadenhall street. This was the mode gene rally practised in our whole commerci eyctem. It was quite unreasonable and abs'ird, that a: ticks of . Great value and difficulty of removal should ?.m lane fed at the Port of London for no useful purpose whatevt r, subject at the same time to great r'sk. in convenience, and expellee.- eimniercial inteiceurse with the outports under such circumst inces did not dcserve the name. The next objection is, that the greAt influx of British subjects, and their Subsequent intercourse, might prove dangerous to the securitq of our Empire to I.ldia. He Would discharge frown his mind altogether thy chimericAl idea of colonisa.- than, where intercourse was only permitted for occa sional business, and no property could be permanently acquired. But he would rely sdely upon the prin ciple, however powerful; he would rest upon the authority to be continued unimpaired in the hands of the Company to .emove any person of improper or suspected character. Surely there was nothing noxious in the character of a British subject to create alarms not excited by the intercourse of Americans and indi viduals of other nations. It was not the existing sys. tem that even now prevented persons from going to India, but the war. Access WAS easy, though indirect. —The great obstacle to colonization was not how they should get there, but what they should do there The Noble Lord then t3ok a view of the general trade, and contended, that the Company had not ca. ' pital enough to make the most of it. The conflicting interests of individuals, or of individual bodies, he contended, contributed to the general good. There was a certain length beyond which the Company could not go, but a h it the Company could not effect might be done •by individuals. He knew it might be said that these alterations would lead to embarrass ments, but these did not discourage Government in the plan they had to propose. The next Resolution he had to submit related to the funds of the Com pany. An abridgment of expenditure, he contendeli was absolutely necessary, buth for the good of -the public and the Company itself. In 1811, the surplus revenue appeared to be only £lOO,OOO. Lord Minto, it appeared, had stated the surplus revenue in 1812, and £650,000 ; but here, it was to be observed, that no provision was made for territorial expence at home. It was necessary to look out for some measure of retrenchment. He proposed setting aside a fund for• the liquidation of the Company's debt. It would be desirable to reduce their debt abroad to • ten millions, and their debt at home to two millions. After such a reduction, he proposed that the surpts revenue should be applied to the service of the public, reserving one-sixth for the use of the Company, and five-sixths of such stir-. plus revenue for the Public. At the same time it was not his intention to insist on the payment of the £500,000 a year according to the terms of the last Charter. Another object to be kept in view was thr • keeping of accounts in such a man ner as to be easily understood, and to she° , Vie bear ings of each department. On this subject he had found much difficulty in coining to any distinct idea with respect to the merits of the several concerns. It was desirable, therefore, that the accounts should be rehdered more intelligible. He had now litiie more left him to notice but the political government of La -44, IV biff ostversil tlt mac Its ciNk _ .