Star. — London, England, 1813-03-10 00:00:00

Aeof .. 1 ~ ii the IFords ed to isions sce in 'rott:s. ice or estab- which flnces fintr.) Frivy. dows ch the he as , I am nappli- ;e ssie pose of be use- Lt. home •rnpires respect Lay out Limn by ins, and ?romul ad been too CL. to lively obligatory upon their consciences and con-1 duct. The regulations, which have for their object snore immediately the interests and security of the Protestant Church, an object which none, If am happy to say, are indifferent to, who have taken part in this discussion, it seems to me would with more propriety . become the first and preliminary measure, instead of being left as a matter of subsequent ar * rangement—(Hear, hear.) I am of opinion that it would have been more natural to begin with this ma terial feature of the question, rather than postpone it till a period, when, from the probable operation of other causes, all hope of final and successful adjust ment will have vanished for ever. But I cannot close inyeyes to another consequence of the Right Ho limitable Gentleman's proceeding. The effect of pro tlucing the Bill and suffering it to lie over till the Swat Session, will be, I fear, to raise high expec ;_ations among the Catholics, and to spread dissntis faction and alarm through the Church of England.' (Hear, hear.) There is a principle which has been powerfully presied, to which I cannot assent, because I regard it as a false and mischievous prin. tiple of policy ; it is that you ought to give power to those who ate hostilely disposed towards you, id order to abate their hostilities. But do I there ' fore infer that matters ought to remain just as they new stand ? certainly not ; never have 1 entertained or expressed such a sentiment. The views, however, in which I have indulged are, I trust; strict, definite, and guarded. They are, I believe, congenial to the . character of the people of the country, who, although slow and Cautious, are ready to listen to every measure of improvement, however averse to wholesale pro (!cts and indefinite innovation.. I am far from being an enemy to concession, I think there are many things that may be safely and wisely conceded. I would in particular give, and with a liberal hand, the honours and distinctions of the military profession. All ranks , in the army should, in my judgment, be laid open to merit and ambition without any reference to religious opinions.' I would willingly repeal the words in the Act of 1793, which exclude Catholics from becoming generals of Staff. When I except the very highest military offices, I allude now to the situation of Corn :minder in Chief of England, Scotland, and in Ire land, it is only because to that situation there noes. gorily belongs a great degree of political power. .1 would open all the avenues likewise to the dtstinctien the Bar, because I would have the Catholics ran the race of honour, although I cannot acknowledge the expediency of putting power into their hands.— These are concessions which the country at large would cheerfully yield, and which are sanctioned, as I conceive, by principles of the soundest policy. Much too may yet be done on the score of toleration ; the Catholic soldier should not be excluded by military regulations from the exercise of his own religious worship, nor the English Catholic be compelled to at tend Protestant Churches, or suffer penalties far per forming mass. These are, however, evidently rather illustrations of the view I entertain upon the subject Of qualified concession, than detailed statements of all the points to which that view la applicable. But there is one other most important consideration to which I feel it my duty to refer, and state my opinion explicitly—it is the question which relates to the re gulation of the Catholic hierarchy in Ireland. (Hear.) To me that foreign influence and foreign intercourse which have been _supposed by many, and admitted by my Noble Friend (Lord Castlereagh) t, i essen tial to any future arrangement, are causes of very serious apprehension. The head of that Hiei archy is now in the hands of our mortal foe, and Bona parte has lately evinced his sense of the important advantages derivable from Papal influence.— (Hear, hear.)—Do we not know that that influence has ob- I truded foreigners into Catholic Bishoprics in Ireland, I and that General Humbett found, on his landing, the ' brother of a French General in possession of an Irish See ? Surely it is then incumbent on the Catholics to offer the same securities, and submit to the same controul, which have been exacted and exercised by every other Protestant State that has admitted Ca.l tholics to the enjoyment of eqyal privileges. If they t will not make the offer, or yield the same securities, the game is their own—no blame can attach to Par-' iiament ; and the statute of Eliz a beth, modified and ' rendered applicable to the present time and to ex isting circumstances, should be enforced. When I , refuse political power to the Catholics, it is because I cannot reconcile it to the security of the Protestant establishment. The Catholics continue to maintain the spiritual supremacy of the Pope; and although I history will inform us that this doconne is not an es sential principle of Catholicism, yet where it is so considered, the necessity which it imposes on States to guard against its exercise, has been always ob vious and undisputed. I may quote on this head the language of no less an authority than Lord Claren don,who, afttit a lon g and unwearied investigation of this subject, pronounced the result of his inquiries and reflections to be, that any allegiance paid to an. other power, spiritual or temporal, is taking from that which is due to the State; and that to assert the latter not to be diminished, is perfectly illusory, and little better than a species of legerdemain. I would address the Catholics in the words of the inhabitants in the North of Ireland—lf you cannot give up what you call your Faith, neither can we surrender our Constitution.— (Hear.) —The Committee must, how ever, take co'gnizance of the prayer of the Petitions on the table. That prayer appears to me to have been too imperiously urged, and to have been ex pressed in language too lofty for the occasion. If England should comply with that prayer without qualification or reserve, she will be England no longer. should all religious distinctions be laid prostrate, our political pre-eminence will not long survive. Such, however, must be the effect attending the chimerical project of what is called universal religious liberty, it it is to be pursued at the expellee of civil expedi ency, and to the manifest peril of all our establish ments. I am sorry' to have occupied so much of the attention of the House ; but I was anxious to state on what grounds I could not give my assent to a mea sure of so general and sweeping a nature, and so sub-1 versive in its tendency of the firmest bulwarks that I surround the Constitution.—(Loud cheering.) Mr. PONSONBY expressed the very great re spect which he felt for the last Speaker; but he was nevertheless of opinion that he had entirely misunder. stood the object and measure of his Right Honour able Friend. The principle embraced in that mea -1 sore coupled security with concession, and made il.cm golaud is bud cogettur, if die details were • ! net nit term.; the Committee, it was beemist the pe riod had not yet arrived. He was at a loss tee know what plan had been abandoned ; he had nester heard of that which aimed at unlimited concession. That which comprised securities would be soon under con sideration ; and the Noble Lord's (Castlereagh's) plan he was, of course, most qualified to vindicate and explain. The House had just heard from great authority of the danger of communicating political power to the Catholics; but this had been already done. when theelective franchise was given. This danger, if it existed, was incurred. The Right Hon. Gentleman was profuse of honourable distinctions, and he wished these opinions of the Right Honour able Gentleman had been known some years ago; because the University of which the Right Ho nottrable Gentleman was so worthy an ornament and representative, would probably not have lent it self to the cry raised against the Government for at tempting to carry a measure, the object of which was to admit Catholic Officers to the rank of Gene ral—(Hear, hear.) But could men be permitted to attain and enjoy the honours of the Bar and of the military profession, without becoming more impa tient and more able to obtain political power ? The opinion of Lord Clarendon had been quoted ; but who constituted him a judge of Catholic tenets, or made his *authority on the subject of more weight than the oath and declaration of the Catholics them selves ? It was said, that the securities ought to pre cede the concession ; and the first security required by the Right Hon. entleman was, that the spiritual supremacy of the Pope should be renounced. What was this but to insult the Catholics, by telling them, we will tolerate your religion, provided you will aban don it, and admit you, although Catholics, to equal privileges, if you will but cease to be so? It would be more politic and manly at once to use an pndis guised language, and not to shelter under these equi vocal terms the real intention of, resisting'their claims for ever. His Right Hon. Friend's plan invited dis cussion—it courted improvement and modification, and could not therefore deserve the strictures which had been passed upon it. Sir JOHN COX HIPPESLEY was always of opinion that the spiritual authority of the Pope was to be guarded against. The question, in his opinion, should have been first referred to a Select Commit tee. There were not any documents upon the subject before the House, and the statement of the penal laws, lately published in Ireland, he considered inac curate. In that publication, he lamented that there was too much comment ur , ,a the text. The power of the Pope was now suojsxt to controul in every Roman Catholic country, and he saw no reason why it should not be so in Ireland. Domestic nomination he thought a wholesome arrangement. This had been common all through Germany, but the right had been wrested from the Chapter by the Pope.— He refuted the assertion that a Catholic did not con ceive himself bound to fulfil his eamerat:ats wit:. Hejetics by an oath. riieir tcuets were not hostilk: to a Protestant GoV , rninent. By oath they were bound to reveal any traitorous deloins that nii, t h. come to their knowledge. A Catnalic, how. vet, would not reveal what was disclosed in conf4.inn, he would die first. 1 hat which was disclosed in coo: fessinn he could only reveal if 11:s Life would be endangered by conceding it. lie oitr.l these facts to be understood, that the Catho.-c ulight have the benefit of a proper explanation of ;Fly new oath which he might be required to take, AS to whether or not it extended to confession. lit the oath of the 33d of George 111. the Catholic disc:aimed, 110. lemnly abjured any intention ti sativert the Esta blished Church, and swore nit to do any thing to disturb or weaken the Protestant re igion. It might be said, that to preach the Catholic religion w.r% to weaken the Prote taut litit want he under stood them to swear was, that thi would not endea vour to weaken by disturbing the Protestant religion. He (Sir J. C. Hippesley) had an intention of moving for the appointment of at Select Committee to en quire into the nature of the tenets of the Roman Ca tholic religion, and he should then propose an Ad dress to the Prince Regent, praying him to permit the Committee to have recourse to a register in his possession, containing entries of the appointments of Roman Catholic Bisnops since the Revolution. Pre judices had hitherto opposed the claims of the Catho lics. He hoped these would operate against them no longer, and that they would meet with a calm and full investigation. He heartily ciaicuried with the motion as tar as it went, but he should certainly take an opportunity of again offering himself to the notice of the Committee, in order to submit to them a pro position, the ad , ption of wh'olt he conceived would be beneficial to the cause. Mr. BATHURST objected to the mode of pro ceeding resorted to on this occasion, by the Right Hon. Gentleman, (Mr. Grattan). Nothing had been stated to the Committee which had not previ ously been stated to the House, to induce them to take a more enlarged view of the subject. If conci liation and regulations were the y objects to be held in view, when concessions were proposed, the regula tions which were to accompany them, ought to be described. Nothing of this had been done ; no inti mation had been given of the ;beans to be reverted to, to secure the Church which they were about to relieve ' from the interference of the See of Rome. Before they went further, they ought to pause to see what effect that which they had already done produced— what of satisfaction on the part of the Protestants, what of gratitude on that of the Catholics. Nothing of concession ought to be granted, which did not go hand in hand with the securities required. Under all circumstances, hc. thought the Committee would not do its duty to itself, if it did not negative the propo sition of the Right Hon. Gentleman, in the hope that one less exceptionable wouli be proposed. Sir JOHN COX HIPPESLEY explained. Sir JOHN NEWPORT, adverting to the hostile spirit which in the course of the debate had been im puted to the Catholics, said he was happy to be able to shew, that the first conciliatory measure adopted by the House had been viewed by them in a spirit and temper quite the reverse of that by which they were supposed to be actuated. At a meeting of the Catholic Board, which had taken place in Dublin since the late vote for a Committee, a resolution, such as could not fail to be grad' ying- to the House, had been moved, and that by a person who had been heretofore arraigned fcr the violence of his conduct in that assembly. The Right Honourable Baronet heft proceeded is read the following Resolutions. which having Been Moved by a .Mr. Lawless, at a meeting of the Catholic Board, Majrit Bryan in the Chair, was thianimously agreed to Re solved, That we heartily eanqritulate out fellow. subjects, of every religions persuasion, in the Bri. tish Empire, oft the late glorious and sdccessful struggle of the friends of civil and religious liberty in the Imperial House of Commons ; from which we may confidently date the commencement of that har mony which is likely to subsist hereafter, among men of all denominations and religions in the ceuatry, which must obliterate the remembrance of past inju ries, and make Ireland as united as she will be uneon: querable."—(Loud cries of thar.)—Such, the Right Hon. Baronet continued, was the temper with which this first symptom of a dispositionto concession in the Legislature had been met. (Hear, hear.) Now, with respect to the qualified concession on which petsons opposing the claims of the Catholics had now taken their stand, lie would beg to offer a few remarks. A Right Hon. Member opposite had proposed to give them rank at the Bar and in the Army, while he withheld political power. Now he would ask that Right Hon. Membet what course he would adopt in the event of the Catholic, in consequence of the in dulgence to which he had expressed himself favour able, obliging the country one day or another to owe its honour and safety to the victories of a Catholic, as it now did to those of a Protestant Well . ngton ? Would he raise this Catholic Wellington to the honours of the Peerage, and if he would, by what device, would he contrive so to fetter the dignity as to keep it tho roughly separated from political power ? (Hear.) The fact was, that the Anti-Catholic advocates were evermore entangling themselves, in consequence of the badness of their cause, in difficulties from which they found it impossible to extricate themselves.— There was one who, far from all intricacy, and in which there was no danger; that was, to extend the privileges of the Constitution in all their plenitude to all classes of his Majesty's subjects, (Hear, hear,) and thus unite them all in its defence—to give over all reference to the dogmas maintained by this sect or by that—and to forbear imputing to any sect or class of Christians whatsoever that spirit by which its adherents had been actuated at former periods. (Hear, hear.) He did net wish to trespass on the time of the Housc.—(Cries of Hear, hear, hear.)- -He had. only risen to read in evidence a document which repelled the charges made against the Irish Catholics. They were a grateful and a loyal people; their loyalty had remained unshaken during a period of unexampled privation : he now alluded to that which they had evinced towards the Stuart family, and which, though it was misplaced, . gave ample evi dence that the principle was strong and lively in their bosoms. Oar statute books attested its existence, and to these we should look, and not permit the charges of Bishops to their Clergy either to obliterate the re cords On which it lived or to interrupt its just reward. A Right Hon. Gentleman, continued the Right Ho nourable Baronet, has said, that this is the time when Parliament should make a stand in defence of the Constitution. Sir, there never was a time when such a stand was more inexpedient or unnecessary. The Hon. Baronet then contended that the Catholics were fully entitled to complete participation of privileges, because if they deemed- a violation of conscience of little moment,.they mig:a have all they seek for with out its being in the least necessary to ask the permis sion of the Legislature to enjoy it. Lord DESART could not but express his concur rence in the proposition before the Committee, for, connected with Ireland as he was, he could not be a stranger to the advantages which Must result from conciliating the Caholics of that country. He was willing tq grant to the Catholic much of what was required, but we must have securities for the Pro testant Establishment. He was ready to admit, that the best bond and security of the Constitution were to be found in its own intrinsic merits and advantages, and that such security was rendered more secure by extending those advantages; but charges ought to be made with a cautious hand. He, however, could not but think, that it would have been the best preli minary proceeding to appoint a Committee to inquire into, and to report on, .ill the laws affecting the Ca tholics, it such a course was practicable. Lord MILTON was anxious to say a few words, because he might not agree in all the views of those with whom he should most probably vote on the question now before the Committee. He could not but premise, that; in his opinion, his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Grattan) had been somewhat hardly used, as to the course which he had deemed it right to propose for adoption. As to the main question 'be fore them, it had his unqualified concurrence ; and as to securities, it was his opinion that the best secu rity was to be found in the good opinion of the people. All these securities rested on an unsound foundation ; no other security but that which w is founded on the good opinion of the people was worth contending for. He thought, however, that those offices which had at tached to them Ecclesiastical patronage, ought not to be thrown open to the Catholic, as would be the case if the Lord Chancellor could be selected from amongst Roman Catholics. The Catbolic, however, had alrea dy the substance of political power, and it appeared to him that they were now quarrelling about the shadow. Was not this an absurd mode f proceeding ? If the Right I - lon. Gentleman (the Speaker) thought that farther concessions ought to he made to the Catholics, it was his duty to propose them in the Committee, be cause the present was one of the very few opportunities which that Right Hon. Member had of addressing the House. His ( Lord M.'s) decided opinion was, that all political power and offices, with the excep tions to which he had alluded, ought to be open to every subject in the country, and that exclusion shouhi no longer rest on the religious opinions of any portion of the people. Mr. WILBERFORCE thought they ought to have commenced their proceedings by taking into consideration the state of the laws affecting the Ro ' man Catholics of Ireland. This was particularly dfsirable, as very contradictory statements on this subject had gone forth to the world, as such an en quiry would have contributed much to a cool discus.. sion and satisfactory decision. The elective franchise having been given to the Roman Catholics, he thought it absurd and injurious to deny them seats in Parliament.—(Hear, hear.)—This he argued at some length, and strongly contended, that admitting them to sit in Parliament could in no respect be dan gerous to the Constitution. By conceding this, they would iticriaue the power of . the Catholics to blare • the Pritetfattt estahlishment, while they walla 41; nish the temptation and dicpositinn to !I 5. , . R ;using their ptayer, they left them the power of n ing against the Protestant interest, by their ig-ntl with more semi:) , thin they could have, if th:t which they asked were conceded. so they deeeive themselves if they thought thy could stop wher they were with safety. In his opinion it would b a great improvement upon the present state things were the Catholics admitted into Parliament —Now they were brought into contact with p 111 tical offices, and debarred from their attainment which) must create discontentment and ill wi11...-. He was decidedly in favour of the mnsure with proper securities, and considered- the preset, time to be peculiarly favourable for carrying it, Iron the general diffusion of light and knowledge whicl had taken place, and the consequent honourable am bition which had arisen in the breasts of C it'anli Gentlemen, every way quAlified to take a share ii 1 the political duties of the country. The allowini them the elec ive franchise, without allowing then to sit in Parliament, WAS an anomaly not congenis with the Constitution, which allotted to every grea body or interest a representative in the Senate to es press its opinions and wishes. He hopel they migh yet live to see the good effects of these concessi ans all irritations allayed, the ferment in Ireland com posed, and all ranks of the people sensible of tb blessings of the Constitution they were permitted t 4 enjoy, though their Clurch might not have the ascers dancy. He concluded by stating, that the hig')et orders of the Catholics were not so mach influenm; by their priests as formerly ; and as an es imple of tai cited the conduct of a Catholic Noblzrn to ia , this, country, who, regardless of the annual escornosuni cations against us as heretics read in their churches' raised a regiment of Catholic Volunteers for the de. fence of this Protest int State; sad with the spirit an feelings of an Englishm tn. since nzieter himself n his son conl.l by INw command them, he w Is resol. red to do his (buy, and his son served in the mks. ( L9ud :ries of hear.) Dr. DUIGENAN strike at consider tble length against the Catholic Claims. but amid much noise and tumult. He contended that their schern s : now was preciselythe same as that entertained by.l.mn Ir. and that, if accomplished, it would he eqa tl to a total revolution in the Government of the country. They asked for unrestricted political and civil rights, which in his opinion ought not to be granted, as their whole tenets and opinions were inveterately and un changeably hostile to a Protestant Establishment. To prove this, the Right Hon. Gentleman went into nu merous documents, and read cop; usly from their oaths, and the decisions of various Councils unrepealed. which tended to shew their entire dependance upon the Pope, and that they were not bound to keep faith with Heretics. The spiritual supremacy of the Roman See, he (Dr. D.) argued, brought with it temporal power; and in the present situ Ition of the Pope. under the controul of our greatest enemy, the grant of a participation in the authority of the State to him would be most dangerous and unwise. He next no. ticed the petitions; and stated, that the signatures to those from Protestants in Ireland, in favour of con cession, amounted to only four thousand, while those against it were above one hundred thousand most respectable names. This circumstance, with the peti tions from England, signed by more than 300,000 persons, evidently sheered the feeling of the people on the subject. He called on Gentlemen to l oo k to the extent of the Statutes they were called on to repeal. Many of these he enumerated, and de clared the measure proposed to be a fundamental overthrow of the Constitution, doing away with the Test and Corporation Acts, and Violating the Co. ronation Oath, as well as the Acts of Union between England and Scotland, and Great Britain and Ire. land. He also noticed a suggestion thrown out on a former debate, that even if the 100 Irish Members , were Catholics, there would be no danger in thefact. That they would be so, he thought very probable, and appealed to the House it such a body, acting together, with one end in view, would not soon rule the Parlia. ment ? The rudder was small, but it guided the ship ; and no Minister could withstand such a comb;. nation as this might be, of men elected, not by the property, but by the beggary of Ireland, and under the influence of their Catholic priests. Lord CASTLEREAGH having stated his gene. ral opinion on a former night, now rose to speak solely to the motion of the Right Hon. Gentleman. , The House, he was sure, must feel that they were to stop where they were, they had either gone ;oo far or not tar enough. It would be a subject of great regret, if, alter the resolutions .ot last Partia 'lent, and adoption of that pledge by the present House, the matter should be terminated abrii i ):iy, without their being able, after all this discw,sien, to collect L , any practical result. For these r2asoas fir wts favour or the motion. At the same time he had no ; scruple in stating his personal regret that the Right , Hon. Gentleman had not opened his views to a larger extent than he had done, and given him same pros. pect of being able to agree with him hereafter. But if the Right Hon. Gentleman had not come up to his outline, he had c tiled for no pledge ; and the more he heard this measure discussed, the more con scientiously was he convinced, not only of its exile. diency, but of its actual necessity. The motion be. fore them left it open to any Member to graft any amendments upon it he might think requisite—it only acknowledged the principle, but bound them to no detail. It had been stated by a Right Hon. Gen tleman (Mr. Abbott) that this resolution embraced a generol sweep of repealing all the statutes of restric tions, without providing any securities. If lie thought so, he would vote against it ; but as it must be accom panied in its future progress with modifications and restrictions, he was not anxious to look out for points of difference in its earliest stages, and would there. fore support it in principle, till of necessity they came to points where diversity of opinion prevailed. He then referred to the proposition made by Sir J. Hip. pisley, which he considered to be objectionable, as it would bring a code of laws they all looked on with regret, into an invidious view ; it would also lead to the examination of Doctors Milner, O'Connor, &c. and afford them a reasonable prospect of a religious controversy up stairs. The only point on which it could be useful, would be in enquiring into, and de. termining the state of the influence allowed to the Roman See in other countries of Europe, Catholic as well as Protestant; but this subject was already coma pletely elucidated by the Hon. Baninfa% pamplikee