Star. — London, England, 1820-05-09 00:00:00

LIST. • On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, tke'Honse proCeeded to take into consideration the Resolutions respecting the Civil List. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER then rose to explain the reasons for entering into the pre sent arrangement. He vent back to the history of the first establishment of a Civil List, by Mr. Burke, in the year 1782, when a new system was intro duced, and permanent rules laid down .101 the esta blishment of the King's Household. It was then de clared, that in order to prevent any kind of con fusion, the Civil List should be divided into classes. But in Mr. Burke's plan there was one great fault; it Iv is that of giving a power to make payments out of the Civil List thr various contirtgenciei of the Civil Government—a circumstance which had given rise to frequent arrears of debt voon the Civil List. After the commencernent of the french Revolution ary war, there were great expense.; defrayed out of ;.his fund, which caused it to be considerably in • and it became necessary to lay accounts of the different arrears .before Parliament, which were accordingly paid off. I,n 1804, estimates respecting the expenses of. the Civil List were laid before that House; and,, in 1811 and 1612, measures for its fulure regulation were brought under the consider ation : Parliament. In the latter year, 1812, upon aecther estimate having been laid before the House, it w.ls found that the excess of the expenditure that year was 121,0001. above the Parliamentary allow ance. In 1816 the subject was again brought before the House, when the establishment fell considerably short of the expenditure in the preceding year; and, as would appear by the estimates, was less by 1.-:''),000/. than the average expenditure of the three yr:•cedinj ,:ears. A plan of economy was then laid • n, which enabled all the branches of the House hold to provide more effect .ally for their convenivace and comtbrt. lle tilotild now propose to adopt the e:tab!i,hr,era of ISM, with the exception of a rcd.:c:ioq the first clais, which consisted of the I .Vihd,hr Establishment and the Privy Purse, amount in,!; to 296,000/. The whole of the Windsor Esta- Eishment was 238,000/. This was to he abolished ; • then wc , iid remain on that class :so other charge thaa 60,0001. for the Privy Purse, to which thizlit be added some provision for servants belong. it 2; to his late Majesty. The Right lion. Gentleman concluded with moving that the Resolutions be read a second time. Lord JOHN RUSSELL observed, that if the c•.lrency had risen twenty-five per cent. in value, t:l.it must cause the burthen of taxation to fall much mere heavily on the People. With regard to the Royal Establishment, he thought there were some offices more properly belonging to old feudal times, Nrhich ought to be abolished, and that it was highly improper to pay from the Civil List, expenses that l i did not properly come under that department. He underst,,od that a sum of L.. 5090 was paid out of the Civil List for a festival to celebrate the return of Ferdinand VII. to Spain !—( A luud laugh J.—Since the accession of the late King, no less than twenty lnillion , had been paid to the Civil List from the Consolidated Fund, Droits of Adanraity, &c. Hr conceived it was proper that the House should be allowed some longer time to consider these Resolu tion,;, an.l, therefore, he should move as an Amend ment—that ii.stead of now, this day sennight might be substituted. There were also sok* hems otoionses In the third class, of minor. consequence, which Were also free hold, and'as they should be paid from some fund he apprehended it was quite immaterial whether burdened on the Civil List Or the Consolidated Fund. fheir origin was connected with some local anec dotes, which, though they lost their value now, there may be some ingratitude in•not preserving them.' It would be observed, that after the year 1815, great deductions; to the amount of £138,000, were made in the Civil List. This was owing. to the change which had taken place, both in the prices of the ne• cessaiies of life, and a concomitant rise in the Cur rency of this country. The Right Honourable Gen tleman then went into a history of the Civil List, .from the time of Charles 11. to the present time. At that time, the Courts of Wards and Liveries, which were given up by the Crown, were more than equi valent to the revenue that was settled upon the King. In King William's reign, the Civil List was declared to consist partly of the hereditary revenues of the Crown, and partly of the revenues which were settled on the King for life, and the income fixed at £700,000 alcar. It was, however, declare.ii, that it' the proceens of these revenues produced any excess, such excess should be at the disposal of Parliament. In the reign of George IL an income of £BOO,OOO was settled upon the King, but upon a different principle as to disposing of the excess of it. There the-surplus was lett.to the disposition of the Crown; but Parliament declared themselves bound to make up the deficit, if such should happen, from the pro ceeds of those sources. At the accession of the late King to the 'Throne, his Majesty consented to sur render up his hereditary revenues, and the Civil List was settled as in the preceding reign; but the casual and incidental resources of the Crown were left in the same condition as they had been placed by the former arrangement. By the Act called Mr. Bankes's Act, which was passed - in the 22,1 sear of the King. the Civil List received a new arrangement, and in 1516 it was again reviewed. Tire basis of the ar rangements made in 1516, he took to be these:— Ail the great heads of expenditure, w;iich grew upon the Civil List, and over which the King had no con troul, were expunged. Amongst other things was the great increase in the expeme of printing the Votes and Journals of the House. At first, a certain sum was fixed for these, which did not exceed £2.000 or 1:3000 ; but, in the course of some years, this in creased to a sum of £lOO,OOO ; it was, therefore, quite impossible to think that •a Civil List, which was con fined to a stated solo, should he able to meet this growing expenditure—( Hear, hear, hear). Removing these heads of expense seemed to be the object to which the Committee of 1816 principally directed their attention. But they also arranged, so that if any excess of expenditure arose nut of the Civil List, it would be under the proper check of the Lords of the Treasury. If the House was to take into consi deration the expense of Ambassadors, they would perhaps be more every year. At present, nothing was uncertain or undefined upon the Civil List.— Within the last four years, no debt accrued upon the Civil List, and he understood there was no excess in any department of it. On the ground, therefore, that no case had been made out for inquiry, and because it was not shewn that the expenses of Government were too great, he would vote agninst the Amendment. Mr. BROUGHAM said, that he had no inten tion whatever of addressing the House upon this occasion, having so fully expressed his views on a former evening as to the merits of the question un der consideration. But he could not forbear from correcting the mistake into which the Right Hon. Gentleman had fallen who had last addressed the House. This mistake was indeed uclr as to excite • his a:tonislnnent. For how could the Right Hon. Gentleman so far misconceive him as to suppose-, that in allusion to certain small grants contained in the papers on the table, he meant to propose the abo lition or curtailment of these grants? Nothing of the kind was indeed in his contemplation, nor was it fairly to be deduced from the nature of his observa- Mr. WALL recommended a full, fair, and elabo rate inquiry into the expenditure of the Civil List. Mr. HUSKISSON.—If the mode of inquiry now proposed could be sanctioned by any precedent drawn front the history of the Civil List, he would never op pose it. In opposing a motion for inquiry, a two fold difficulty presented itself to him. He was aware of the claim which.the House had to discuss what 11 - as a part of the resources of the State, and he felt with What favour a motion for inquiry vas ever received by a new Parliament. He would, however, teal the Geetlernen opposite, that nothing was to be aemd in the history of the Civil List to sanction an inquiry like the present—(liene, hear 4).—This cir camstance alone threw en writs on them of shewing, that there was something in the late demise of the Crown to take it out of the ordinary course. He na reason why any change should be made in the expenditure necessary to support the splendour and dignity of the Throne, or why the hottnty and ilta - eality of the People to the King should abate by the demise of our late Sovereign. On the contrary, if precedent was against it, still there was sointthing in die circum;tances attending the present reign to take is & ut of its Operation. Ever since the restricted Regeece, tl:e c;tablishment necessary for the late King, when unable to the functions of Sovei eign. was kept di:ainct from that of the Regent or acting s.oveiti,,•.m. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman op posite was the:efore mistaken, when he suppo,ed that the office of Groom of the Stole would not cease upon the death of the Keg. The office did cease, in fact, and the expenses attera:ing it-had been transferred to 'he public account. The duties of tl:c Regent arc the same now as before the dcrni , e of the Crown.— To that establishment no exception ha.! been taken. Would the Noble Lord say, that no addition should he made upon the alteration of his condition to that of King If the advisers of the Crown had advised the continuance of any part of the esta blishment of the late King, there indeed. he might say. is was a fit subject for inquir y .—!!Hear, krar !). —l';:ere was then an anus on t he Noble Lord to Prove two propositions, either that the establishment ta the I':i,-cc of Wales was larger than that of the : 4 . (11 ."-a or that in the latter there had been great waste. He 1:c'; , ,,, could contend that the establishment of the oe t to be less than that of the Regent :—if ' of, ea!ed in that, then there was no case for inquiry, red more especially as precedent was against it, e 1 e -.vas the necessity- ofroing into a Committee teentiemen quarrelled with one item in the expen nlione of the Civil List, they might lay their finger al_ on it, for the Report of 1815, svhich went into de- even to nicanne , ..s, set out all. Now that the Jt:aif - es in Eyre had been done away, every eye was tioeetl upon the unfortunate situation of the Master . the I Liwks ! It this office was all that it was re. reee.nted to be, certainly ail preceding Committees V.ho rlooked its continuance, disgraced them 3tive:e The uuth was, they could not mterfere with t. It . wee. a frecholi granted by the King, in which ti.e grantee lard quite much F o r , ty as any other freehold trader the Crown---( icar),..- Perhaps LL wi,,Ald L advisable, if it was possible, to do it away. tions. In answer to the argument urged against his preposition for severing certain establishments from the Civil List, he referred, and very naturally, to some particular grants heretofore paid - out of that fund, which might obviously be separated from it without in any degree endangering the dignity of the Clown. All the grants which he had quoted on Friday, and to which the Right Hon. Gentleman had just referred, were precisely of that description. What, tor instance, had the allowances to the Vicar of the Tower and the Keeper of the Lions to do with the maintenance of the dignity or splendour of the Crown? There was also another grant in the papers on the table, which, from considerations of delicacy, he forbore to mention to the House on Friday, he meant that to the Rat-killed—(A loud laugh).- But in mentioning this officer now, and he hoped he should stand excused by the House, he by no means intended to deny the utility of such an officer, any more than he could the existence of rats. He could scarcely indeed look at any side of him without ad mitting the existence of rats !—( Hear, hear; and re peated laughter )—ard such was the number of these vermin, as well as the nauseousness of their charac ter, that he was as little disposed to put an end to the office of rat-killer as to that of the keeper of those nobler animals, the lions—(A laugh).—But he could not help thinking that either of these offices were so intimately connected with the splendour or dignity of the Crown, that their maintenance ought to be provided for out of the Civil List. No wish of that sort was either expected 'or implied in the ob servations which he felt it his duty to submit to the House on Friday last. It would, indeed, have been inconsistent with the line of his argument to rna,ke any proposition of that nature, as it was his declared view that such grants as he had referred to, should . b.:: rather paid out of the Consolidated Fund, than included in the Civil List, as it was evident that those L rants were not all connected with the maintenance' of the Royal dignity. Mr. TIERNEY then rose. He said, this discus- Lion came on under circumstances of a nature per iectly unparalleled. It regarded the appropriation. of a sum of 12850,000, at a period of public distress entirely unpricudented. It had appeared, in the course of Una evening's debate, upon another question, that the Agricultural Interest of the country was in a state of great depression, and that it was not pro bable at present the evil would decrease. Of our commercial affairi there was but one opinion. They ;iad heard from his Hon. Friend (Mr. Baring) -what , . • • up,ish' „,„„ Was state done coeteleercial eilattettls;ancl head' i'to be Called ioT.OleTor• to provide roc announced to them that the depressioneexperienced the Maintenance of -the . Royal FaMily and nonse. in. them was not likely to be removed, He (Mr. Tier- hold, out of which the Queen of E:v herself ney) addressed the House at a period when distress, was to be excluded, after being recoenized by the be legretted to say, had broken out into acts of vio- • Lord High Chancellor. He would let this I as , ; hat knee in several parts of the country---(Hear, hear). he could nut help observing, that either her Majesty He addressed them at a time immediately following was very hardly used, or else that his Maiesey a Geeeral Election—When, whatever had 'been the was very hardly used. The Right Honourable differences of political opinions which had prevailed Gentleman here took an opportunity of again ims from one end of the Empire to the other, upon what- pressing upon the House. the neceoiee of vim; into ever topic, among whatever descriptions of men, there a Committee, and observed, that it behoved Ii n ter s, had been but one genetal cry, in which all parties 'before they called on them to vote a sum of e 60,000 hat joined—a demand for the exercise of a most per annum for the Privy Purse, to shew how much rigid economy—(Laud cries . or Ilear, hear, hear.)— besides was placed at the di. posal of his Majesty. Addressing an assembly like that which he had then It was material, he continued; for the house to know to address, under such circumstances, no apology, he what funds his Majesty had of his own ; and here he conceived, was due from him, if he at once declared, would ask, if any proof were yet wanting of tbe ne that he could not agree in the principle of the pro. cessity of inquiry? whether any man who heard him position stated by the Right Honourable Gentleman knew, excepting, indeed, it was some one connected (Mr. Illiskisson). The Right Honourable Gentle- with the Revenues of the Duchies of Lancaster and man had said, that the House ought to he satisfied Cornwall. The former he believed to be about with the arrangement of 1816, because the expendi- £lO,OOO, the latter £15,000 per annum," or 1:25,000 tore had not since exceeded the Revenue of the (evil a-year jointly. This would make. the yearly amount List. This might have been a good argument for of the Privy Purse £85,000. „But then there was the voting two millions instead clone, for the possibility suns of £385,000, an excess of its income, paid out of an excess would thus hive been prevented, but it' of other funds daring the last sixty years ; andellis hid no bearing on the present qtaetioa. lle (Mr. sum of Le 85,000 would average, upon the whole Tierney) had objected at the time to the arrange- reign, -About 1:6,000 eer annum, to be added to the ment of 1816, on the ground that he cared little for 1:85,000 ; making thei efore, so fir es he could cal estimates produced by the Officerselthe Crown with- culate it, a total yearly allowance to the Privy Purse out being sifted by a Committee, and that it was a of 01,000. Ile had given notice of a motion for mockery-to call that inquiry, which only !hewed the tomorrow respecting the sum cf £3F5,090, which papers drawn up by Ministers. The case was very appealed to have been paid into the Privy Purse ; but different at the demise of her late Majesty. With a as the discussion of this night had very much em dying King, there wa r s every disposition to sift every- braced that subject, he was willing to forego it, pro thing thoroughly. Hence, after examining Colonel vided the Committee now mneed for embraced that Stephenson, the Report, which had been drawn, had question in its investigations. He begged the House to been received by the House without any opposition.. look at the mischief teat might arise from empower- He then contended, that if only one thousand pounds ing Ministers, from time to time, to grant out of could be saved by the proposed inquiry, that inquiry the casual revenues of the Crown, fur the Privy should be made. But it was his firm belief that the Purse, such sums as they might think necessary ; and saving would amount to many thousands. He con- it would not be forgotten, that the moment those pared the establishment of 1816 with the estimates sums were actually in the Privy Purse, no man of the Committee of 1815, and maintained, that the living had a right to ask a question about them. reduction of £139,000, which appeared in the for- This was a point which the House and the Country met., had not been effected in consideration of the ought to view with the utmost possible jealousy.— altei ed value of money, but in consequence of great Of what particulars did this large sum of £385,000 retrenchment in the third class, comprising elle ser- consist? Suppose it were represented by Lord Li vites of our Ambassadors abroad, and in the occa- verpool, or the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that his sionat payments. He then took a view of the esti- Majesty wished to add to his property at Brighton a mates proposed by Mr. Pitt in 1304, which it had considerable extent of land, and that it was fit the been attempted to shew that statesman never meant sum of L 420,000 should be paid into the Privy Purse to carry into effect. He never had been a great for that purpose, who, alter it was so paid, could be Pittite—(Laughter)—but he had too much respect called upon to account for the appropriation of the for Mr. Pitt to think as badly of him as his own money ? Did the House think it right that such a friends on this occasion. Was it because Mr. Pitt powerofmaking direct presents to his Majesty should thought it practicable to make a saving of 1:47,000, exist ? He did not mean to charge the present Go that his sincerity was doubted? In the arrange- vernment with any endeavour, by a circuitous mode, ment of 1812, the seven years ending in 1811 had to obtain the money themselves, because such was been taken to form a just criterion of what should be not the fashion of the times, and he sincerely believed the amount of the Civil List. But examine the de- that they were incapable of it ; but it was clear that tails of those seven years. His Majesty necessarily in. they always possessed the means of currying the cuffed great expenses on account of his large family. Royal favour and tampering with the Royal feelings A heavy charge was occasioned, not by the repairs, in this way—(Hear). Suppose any one of the Mini but by the improvement of Windsor Castle. Then sters had given offence to .the Sovereign, and wished he had to provide palaces for the younger branches to mike it up by a little money paid into the Privy of his family—to furnish apartments in Kensington Purse ; according to the present arrangement he Palace—and, besides all this, the expense of remov- could do it, although, of course, he did not sus ing his family to Windsor and to Weymouth was not pect that it would have the desired effect—(Hear). triflings ' Put all these expenses together, not one of I-Ic knew nothing from authority, but it was a corn whichiapplied to the present King, and the House mon proverb, that what everybody said must be true would see whether those seven years furnished a fair to a certain extent; and would any men deny that criterion? He then referred to the former declare- his late Majesty died worth a great deal cf property? tions of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that dis- This property must have been saved out of the Civil tress was only temporary. This had been the •con- List; and was the country to be-saddled with a heavy solation and the boast of the Right Hon. Gentleman Civil List, in order to enable the King to make whenever the 3 per cents. had risen, a traction, but savings ?—( Hear, hcar).—Tiue it was that his late for the last three or four months he had left off his Majesty had a large family to provide for, but no glowing pictures of national prosperity (Heaiehear). such motive existed in the present case. At this Under all the circumstances, he thought the Houk moment every farthing saved to the Nation was of ought not to be content to adopt the arrangement ithpoitance, and what pretence was theme for grant which had been acted upon during the last four ing one single sixpence beyond what was necessary? years. But it was said no inquiry was necessary, Then, why, not inquire what was necessary ; and because an inquiry had taken place in 1815. Now surely the enorAbes sum of 385,000/. was of itself he must remark upon that, that besides the grant of a sufficient reason for a minute investigation ?—" I 850,0001. for the Civil List required for England, a state all this, GOD knows," continued - Mr. Tierney, grant of 207,0001. was proposed on account of Ireland. " with a great deal of pain to myself, because t am Who, he could wish to know, had heard of any in. well aware that it is liable to misconstruction. There quiry into the Civil List for Ireland? The increase are many rumours abroad, which may or may not which had taken place in the Civil List was not pro- be well founded, and if I listened to them I should perly understood. It was so involved in a mass of think it a very bad time indeed for any Gentleman figures, that he would defy ally man who was not on this side of the House tea do anything that might well acquainted with subjects of finance, to under- possibly wound the feelings of his Majesty—(Hear). stand it. There had been an excess of expense in the —What may be the consequences cf the part I seven years ending in 1811. It was-then found that have taken I neither know nor care ; but this I know, there was an exceeding of- £124,000 over the E ,ti- that if public confidence be of any value, no . man mate brought forward by Mr. Pitt in 1804. An ad- ought to hope for the confidence of the country ditional provision had been made to double the sum who does not endeavour to deserve it by fearlessly he had just named, to the amount of £250,000, in stating his sentiments in this House —(Loud cheers). order to cover the exceeding which had taken place, When we are talking of economy and retrenchment, and this provision, under circumstances differing ma- I cannot come down heie to take every the salaries terially from those of the time when it was made, the of some petty clerks, or to redace the pensions of a Douse was now called upon to confirm. He called few poor half-pay Officers, and shut my eyes to this upon the House to do nothing of the kind, till an in- proceeding, by which such enormous sums are to be quiry had first taken place. At the commencement voted to his Majesty without inquiry. I know lam of a new reign, it was desirable that the House, on doing my duty; and if I am at all acquainted with such a subject, should be as unanimous as possible. the character of the King, I am sure that he will ra- If the matters were referred to a Committee, unani- ther thank me than blame me for the part that I am mity would be obtained; but if this were not done, taking—(Cheers). What is it we wish on this side he must tell Ministers that their measures would be of the House? Nothing more than that the Crown opposed. There was another view of the subject that should stand well with the country ; and, in, times was most material. The Chancellor of the Exchequer like these, can there be anything more important had said, the sixty thousand pounds for his Majesty's than that the People should feel a firm assurance that Privy Purse, Nvas all that now appeared in the first 'his Majesty requires no further sacrifice from them class of the Civil List, that had any connection than is absolutely necessary to support the character with the Royal Family. He must be forgiven for and dignity of the Throne?—(Cheers). An opportu thinking, that by the arrangement now proposed, nity like the present may never, perhaps, again occur, the King was placed in a situation very different for there never was a moment so favourable for ob from that of the former Kings of England.— taming popularity on the part of the Crown—(Cheers), Formerly a certain sum was given him for certain I am as confident of this as I arn r of my existence, services. Now not a farthing was to be placed in that if his Majesty had hot been surrounded by his hands t 3 provide for any member of his family; those who gave him this bad advice, he would have and what was mast extraordinary, her Majesty the stood in a very different position before his peo- Queen of England had no place in the Civil List - In ple• to that which he now occupies—(Loud cheers). the Bill for providing for the Royal Family, no men- Every man must be aware, that the country looks tion was made of the Queen. The grounds upon with great anxiety to the deliberations of the House which this exclusion had been made, they might some i on this question; not merely because it is agitated at day have an opportunity of discussing; but he must the commencement of a new reign, but because it consider it as most extraordinary that her Majesty I will take the decision as an earnest of the intentions was dies situated. She was to be considered, and of Ministers for the future—(hear, /:car). I say, and had been recognized, as Queen of England by the ; I jay it without the fear of contradiction, that there Lord Chancellor, and 'by one or two other eminent t are large sums, which, if a proper inquiry were set individuals, and, happily for herself, was re; resented 'on foot, might be saved to the country. I say. toe, by his Hon. end Learned Friend (Me:•Rrougham.)--i that all ranks are bound to make sacrifices": add; by• k was, indeed, eitradraitiary That 'there' should - 'be !goieg into this committee, 'the House. will at.. once thicornisnctn. •He diesrtay, that'henever expected ; set an example - that its great oh;ect is economy and 1 . 1 11 Ira A • • • I