Star. — London, England, 1806-07-19 00:00:00

P.IRLI4,77ENrdiRr PRuCEEDINGS. HOUSFOF LORDS, FRIDAY, JULY in the Appeal Chantley v. Lord Dunfany and others. Cnoofel was heard for the Respondents. Further heasing on Moridiy. 1 he Bankrupt !WWII Bill was read a third time and pallid, with an arnecdnicut, prnoofed by Lord REDESDALE, for the purpofe of more dedlually preventing Frauds. Ihe Onha• c Land. Bill, tie Charter/ Clerks Bill, the linen Drawback ;ill, ti.e Seamen's Families Bill, and the Bell Rock Lightheuk Nil, were silo read a third time and paged. Mr. Al. h XANDER, and f , seral other Membets of the Houle of Coma,ous brought. up the Charitable Initicution Bill, the Co.:olidated Fund Bat, the Public Harbours Bill, the Cuttoms RreJlition WA, and the Oak Bark Bill, which were read a Brit tne. The !Loyal Family Annul:lee Bill, the Lottery Dill, the Mi litia Officers Pay bill, Fad Nel(on'a Annuity Bill, the Pottage Bill arid the London Additional Force Repeal 13111, were read a (econd ume and committed (.)r to-morrow. The Woods and iorefts Regulation Bill, the Auditors' Bill, the Witsdfor Forelt Bill, Lord Rodney's Annuity Bill. the Stage Coach BiU,iAE Warehouting Bill, and the Id& Hops Bill, paff•.d through Committees, and were reported. CoiondDamtwarta, from the Commiflioners of Military Inquiry, preftrited the Second Report of that Board, which was ordered to He an the table, and to be printed. Strangers were, for a Ihort time excluded, whilit the Houle ara difeuMil the matter of Privilege, which was under diftufflon ititerday. THIL•MTHIMPIC SOCIETY SILL. On our re-admillion into the Houfe, The Earl; of WINCHESTER was addreffing their Lordfhips on the cubic& of the above Bil, of which he expreffed his marked difapprobation. He conceived the meafure, as (biped by the Bill, to be neither expedient nor neceffary, founded on no pre cedent, And a pnfitive inroad upon the rights of Patrons and Reftors. The Reverend Prelate dwelt upon the propriety, efpecially in times fuch as the prefent, of preferving inviolate the ecclefiallical rule: and conffitutions, in calls of the kind, which render ed the authority of the Reetor, to a certain degree, paramount. After adducing a variety of obferva tions,feemingly founded on thofe principles, the Rev. Prelate thought it incumbent on him, in his view of the cafe, to move," that inflead of • now' (which it appeared was the regular queflion before the. Houfe) this Bill be read a third time • this diiy two months." Lord ELDON, though he keened to differ from the Reverend Prelate as to tome of the.pfliions be bad advanced, yet, as the Bill Rood, and he had fre quent opportunities of confidering the fubjed, while in the high and important office he had lately the honour to fill, he certainly mull difapprove of it, becaufe its leading provifion militated againfl the univerfal principle of the law in thnfe cafes, which veiled in the ReEtor of the parilh the powers of no mination, as he, by law, had the cure of foul.. He had the Pole right of appointing the Cletgyman who fhould preach, &c. in his parith ; and in that view, the law could no more fubilitute the Diocefan in his place, than himfelf There were certainly Come duties which the blimp had a right to in Parochial churches, but thek were b ezprefsty of a paftoral na ture, as confirmation, &e. but in fuck a cafe as that referred to in the bill, the immediate authority of the Reetor preponderated. The LORD CHANCELLOR rather differed from the two preceding fpeakers, in a great deal of what fell frorn them. He, too, lino:: his eleva- Lion to his prefent office, had frequent occallons to turn his attention to the fubjcet ; and even in the early part of •liis profeflional career, though bred in a religion different from that eftabliffied in this part of the United Kingdom ; yet, fituated as he was, he felt it behoved him to be very cautious and tender with refpea to every thing that affeCted the Sacred inflitutions of the Church of England, and to encou rage every thing that tended to preferve entire thefe infinutions. He was of opinion, the rights and du. ties of the Diocefans fhould be duly confidered and felt upon every occafinn ; and notwithrtanding what had fallen from the Right Reverend Prelate, for whom he prnfeffed the moft profound refpeet, and his Noble Friend, yet the conlideration (truck him forcibly, that were they to confider themfelves in the fituation of the Diocefan, they would perhaps fee the matter in the fame light with himfelf. Earl SPENCER (poke in favour of the bill, and adverted to the expediency of the meafure of infli. toting a chapel near the houfe, in which the objeas of the Philanthropic Society's care and benevolence were lodged, fo as to fupercede the neccffity of their being paraded twice every Sunday as far as the parifh church, a conliderab'e dillance, to hear prayers ; it would be far more decent and preferable to have a chapel near the Society's houfe, as in the cafe of the Afylum, an inflitution in the 'very neighborhood ; and which, contrary to what a Reverend Prelate ad vanced, furnilhed a precedent direelly in point. The eir:umflance of ether.pet funs being admiffible to the chapel, was, in his mind, a recommendation ;—it would alto tend to defray the expences. Upon the whole, he thought the meafure would be produCtive of beneficial confequences; the bill fhould therefore have his I - Import. The Bifhop of WINCHESTER (poke firmly in explanation. The Bifhop of ST. ASAPH (poke in favour of the meafure ; drawing many of his arguments, as he proceeded, from the provifions of the bill, to which be referred. He was aware of the extent of the Rec. tor's rights ; but though the Committee were cm• powered to appoint the officiating Clergyman, yet it was under ;stoner rettriaions ; and when he confider. ed the powers ultimately vetted in the Ballot, of the Diocefe, he was not led to entertain any apprehen.. lions of the Eftablifhed Church fuffering on the oc cafion Lord ELDON expreffed his &Tent from fome of the conclufions of the Reverend Prelate who had laft fpnken. The Bahr, of OSSORY raid a few words upon the occafion. The Bifhopof WINCHESTER, after fome further explanation, withdrew his amendment. After fme further difeuffion, Lord ELDON moved an amendment in a parti cular part of the bill, as follows " with the cotifent of the Relfor of the patio." Earl SPENCER was decidedly adverfe to the amendment ; by giving him a negative in that way, the intliiu ion, to far, would lie at his mercy. Lord ELLENBOROUGH fupported it, as at felting the Rector's rights, which proceeded nn a univerfal principle of Law p--and nbferved, that the Reeor naturally had better opportunities of knowing the characters of r fuho--ifi—nate Clugymen, than even the Ditlop. Lord RL•DESDALE was of opinion, the Le gidature should now be more than ordinarily flrie in maintaining the rules and inflitutions of the church difcipline ; and adverted to fomc inflanees of great indecorum and impropriety of behaviour among certain congregations, who had affembled to hear divine fervice. He fupported the amendment. The quedion was then put, and the Houfe di vided, when there appeared—For the amendment 9 Apainfl it 9. In consequence of this equality in the vote, the amendment was 1011. The Bill was afterwards read a third time and paffed.—Adjourned till tamorlow (this day.) fr t • HOUSE OF COMMONS. Mr. Cum, from the COI3IIIIIILOOCTS of Military loquir7,pre• tented the Second Report of that Board.—Ordered to be printed. A Gentleman from the Conunilßotiera for Weitnalniter- Bridge, prefented their Annual Account—Ordered to tic on the Table. Mr. R. MITWOID,from the Commitlioners of Northern Light kooks, relented an Abfired a their Accouuu. The Receiver General of the Cullom Bill, the Crown Lands Leafe Bill, and the Oak Bark Billow:re feverally read a third time and paffal. Mr.SHERIDAN gave notice of a motion for Mooday,relative to the Mates belonging to the Crow') lu Warnituler, for the purr& of improving the Capital. A Petfoa from the Tax Office prefented an Account of the Salaries to the Commanners for the Redemption of the Land Tax. On the motion of the LORD ADVOCATE of SCOT,. AND, Moulton and Company's Litate Bill was read a third time and patted. A Melrage was received from the Loords n itathig that their L. ips had agreed to the American Intercourfe, Militia Services, Volunteer Officers, and a number of other public and private Bills. A Mefrage from the Lords declared their afent to the Linen Drawback, the Bell Rock Lighthouk, the London Port, and the Maftrr in Chancery Mils, without any amendment, and alto their Lori:Mips' &Ileac to the Philanthropic Society and Bankrupt Re gulation Bills, with feveral Amendments, to which they dared the concurrence of this Houfe. _ _ Accounts of the falaries of several public °Seers were prefented at the Bar.—Ordered to be printed, and to lie on the table. PUBLIC HARBOURS ELL. On the motion for the third reading of the Public Harbour. Bill, Sir WILLIAM ELFORD admitted, that it was a Bill of great public concern, and one to the prin- ciple of which no man could objeft ; but, when he looked into the body of the Bill, it was impoffible not to perceive that every perfon who bad property on almoll every river ani fiream in the country,' mak, by its operation, be fubjetted to great incon- venience, in fo far as it went to prohibit the ereCtion of any embankment, jetty, or any work whatever, in any harbour, or on any river, rivulet, orlream eonnetted with the fame, without giving notice to the Admiralty. This, he was afraid, would be found a great hardfhip, as there was hardly any running water which was not, in Come fbape or other, conneeed with the tea, and of courfe with tome one harbour or other. Sir C. POLE Bated, that all that was required was notice of any intended erenion. If not Inter- dined, the party giving the notice would then have power to proceed without farther delay. This, he fubmitted, was not too great a facrifice to be maded for the fake of averting what might be detrimental to the anchorage, and of courfe to the commerce of the country. The Bill was then read a third time. On the quef lion that the Bill do pals, Come farther converfation took place, and Mr. FOSTER moved that the Bill be confined to Great Britain. This, however, was pal Ted from, and words were Introduced limiting the reftriflion to all public har bours, and .1 , every river communicating therewith, fo far as the tide floss up the fame." The Bill was then paired, and ordered to be ear tied to the Lords. AAAAA The SECRETARY at WAR moved that there be laid before the Houle a Statement of all Sums received by the late Barrack Matter General for the Rent of Canteens and Sale of Dung. Mr. ROBSON remarked that it had fallen to his lot more than once to move for Papers, which, after being refufed to be granted one day, were on the following, or fume fubfequent day, moved for by Miniflers. This he thought ftrange, and willed to know the reafon of it. He alfo objefted to the hurry with which the Papers were fent off to be printed, by which he was prevented from having an opportu. nity of confidering them, and of preparing for a Motion which be meant to make on the fubjelt on Monday. It was remarkable that Inch papers as that to which he referred (the Second Report of the Mili tary Ci.mmiffioners) were never prefented ti!l within a few days of the ritmg of a Seftin, by which means Members bad no opplituility of knowing what they contained till the following Salon. After Come further obfervations the motion was agrerd to. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER exprelled a wilk to know what was to be the tenor of the Motion which the Honourable Member had hinted at, as likely to be made by him on Monday ? Mr. ROBSON said hit Motion would be for more Papers relative to the peculations in the Barrack De• partment. •He did nor, however, pledge Itimfelf to bring it forward on Monday, if he could not have an oppot tunity of perufing t!!c papers already before the Huth. 'lhe SECRETARY at WAR prefented the Pa. pens which had been ordered, on his motion, to be produced : ___ _ Mr. PAULL repeated the affertions made by him on a former night, that Captain Atkins, who had been a meritorious (taker, was difmiffed front his employment in the Barrack Department without no tice, and uithAut being heard, merely becaufe be bad espied frauds which were praftiflng on the The SECRETARY at WAR denied this Rate ment• and (Aid that there were papers on the table which would ate w that Mr. Atkins had been heard in defence. I%lr. ROBSON ohfervcd that there was one affida vit to that etrefl, and thiee to the e. ntras y. After Tome hither sonverfation, principally on the point of Mr. liohlon having mipetßiun of the papers before silty were printed, The SPEAKER, on learning that the paper he principally wanted was the Report of the Milira. C-romiffieners, informed him that it had already been ordered to be printed. Sir JOHN SINCLAIR brought up the Second Report of the Committee GO BMW Wheeled Wagginx.—Ordcred to be printed. ANNUAL COASTS. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER mom' that humble .Addreffes be pre rated to his WiaJudy, praying that he would be grzeioufly pleated to order the following fonts to be paid to the perfoos named in the different refolutlons, and that the Hoak would make good the fame. The fum of noel. to H. Alesandcr, Efq for his Cervices as Chairman of the Committee of Ways and Means. To Jeremiah Dyfoo, Efq one of the Clerks of the Houle, fueh a faro. as with his fees, thould make up the rum of socr 1. To J. H. Ley, Efq another of the Clerks of the Haute, the clear furn of toool. , To J. Clementfon, Efq. filch a lam u together with the fees of hie once, thould amoont to soot That there be printed tyso Copies of the journals of the Homfo, and an Index thereto, undo the cue at the (aid j. H. Ley, Efq. That 3 set. be advanced to o. l .Vhitbam, Efq. fur making an Index to the Voter of the Hoare. . . And that fuch compenfation as way be proper be granted to the Clerks to Public Committees during the prefetat SelEon. Addreffes on each of 'bele were ordered accordingly, to be pre rented by filch Members of the Houfe u were of his Majelty's Mott Honourable Privy Council. INNIA. Mr. P. MOORE moved fordicharging part of an Order of 15th June lift, for produetion of certain papers relative to India, and that co nein other papers be ordereed to be produced.—Om dered. There were Immediately prefented. ►UBLIC DEBT. Mr. JOHNSTONE moved the Order of the Day for refuming the debate upon the fubjeft of the Pub lic Debt, which order being read, Mr. JOHNSTONE obferved, that the Refolutinna which he had to move upon this fubje& differed fo little from the (late of the Public Debt, as laid down by the Noble Chancellor of the Exchequer, and agreed fo clofely with his Ilatements in all the general ref - nits, that it was hardly worth troubling the Houfe, by going into .a minute detail upon the fubjelt.— There were, however, one or two points which called for obfervation. On the commencement of the pre fent war, a. hope had been pretty ftrongly dated on the other fide of the Houfe, by an Hon. Gentleman, that the war might be carried on without any new increafe of the Public Debt ; and yet it now appear. ed, that notwithftanding the ample increafe of re venue which had been voted as war taxes, and the new heavy burdens impofed upon the country, the Public Debt had been increafed feventy millions with in the lad four years, although the produa of the war taxes within that time had exceeded their efti mates by two millions. He did not will tb expatiate farther upon this fubjeft now, in the abfence of the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Vanfittart) who had held out to the Houle and to the country this flattering hope, which he (Mr. Johnftiine) forefaw at the time was not likely to be verified. Another fubjeft for obfer cation was, that, notwithdanding the productive fuc cefs of the war taxes, and the very advantageous loans that had been made fince the commencement of the prefent war, yet competing the four years of the pre fent war with the four Taft years of the preceding, it would appear, that the loans made in both were very nearly equal; for in the former the fum borrowed in four years was 69 millions, and in the latter 67 mil lions, while the quantity of flock at market remained , ftiil pretty much the farce. Mr. Johnftone then pro ceeded to move his Refolutions ; the fird of which that the Public Debt of the nation, on the tft of March, 1803, was 567,008,9171. The CHANCELLOR .of the EXCHEQUER felt it unneceffary to fay any thing on the nibs& of the general refolutions. of the Hon. Gentleman, as they fo nearly accorded with the flatement he had hisnfelf made; and with refpeft to the accumulation of the public debt, in confequence of the exceeding.' of the war ezpences beyond what was originally con jeftured, he bad only to ay, that it mud have been impolfible to date more than mere conjefture as to what might be the probable expences of a war, in the outlet of which the poffible chances and events, and confequently the true expeace of which it mutt be ill podible for human forefight to calculate upon any Peale of accuracy added to this, however accurate fuch calculations might be, they muff be founded upon the rate of things as they flood at the time ; but every one mull know, that the extraordinary and un expefted rife upon every necefary of life, and almoft every article of fupply fince that time, and the total change of chat after the war had affumed, efpc• eially in the late unfortunate campaign upon the Con tinent, cxpences had accrued to an extent which it was equally impollittle, in the outlet, for human wif• dam to forefee or to avoid. Dr. LAWRENCE made a few obfervations to the fame effeft, and Paid the objeftions of the Hon. Gen tleman would be belt anlwered by the reply quoted in a claffic author upon a fimilar occafion,“ that war was a devouring animal, and would be reftrained by no prefcribed regimen." The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER then moved to pollpone till Monday, the further con fideration of the remaining relolutions. INDI♦ Oa the motion of Lord MORPETH, the Com mittee on the Indian Budget was refumed. Mr. TYRWHITT JONES thought that in the prefent convulfcd (late of the Company's aff,sirs, the Hoofs ought to be informed bow the debt claimed by Government again(' the Company, and by the Com pany again(' Government, actually Rood! When he was proceeding on this point, Dr. LAWRENCE called him to order, that not being the queflion before the Houle, which applied folely to the left year's expenditure. Mr. JONES maintained he was in order, but pro felled his willingnefs to yield to the Ler ne I Doc. tor, who was hirofelf always fa full of brevity. Mr. PAULL agreed that the ltatement made by the Noble Lord was the only fair one on the fubjeet for the lan twenty-two years. But even in it there were fome millakes. As, for inflance, there was a fum of 7,710,0001. which became due in the year 1807, intlead of the year tBI 0, as the Noble Lord's Qatement made it. Of cootie, the deficiency for the two laR years amounted to about 6,000,0001. Mr. JONL•S allied if he had a right to put a quettion ? Mr. HOBHOUSE Paid, he might put ary quef tion, but it would reit with the perfon to whom it was put to anfwer it or not, as he inclined. Mr. TY RW HITT. JONES hoped that he would not be thought pertinacious, bat ha hoped be would be allowed to make a few obfervatioris, at he notld pledged in tome degree to the Notice on this fubjetg. He had in atot tinted that the debt of the Company was twtnty millions. This had now clearly evened out to be the fan. He had then met with a great deal of opprobrium, and WaS Aked to have patience. He had had patience, and the rcfult was, that the Company, as had been Rated by an Honouratl... Alderman (Prinfep) was on the eve of bankruptcy, and that their debt was nearer forty millions than thirty. He was therefore fully juftified in what he had laid, and the perfons at the India Board, whe ther they were called Comptrollers, or any thing elle, would loon, it appeared, be only the affignees of bankrupts. Mr. JOHNSTONE Paid that there was no danger of a bankruptcy. He would not enter upon the particulars of the accompts, however, as it was pain ful to him to look at the fituation of the Company.— But that fituation was fill not fo gloomy as it had been re relented by the Honourable Gentleman.— As to the loans, he hoped the perfons who held then, would renew their engagements. Bat he deprecated. the transferring them to this country, and warned the Directors not to Ale fuch a thing of Parliament, far the Minifter of the day would be ftrongly tempt. ed to grafp at a flume of the patronage, which would be dangerous to the liberties of this country. begged the Houfe to confider what would he t!..: confequence of a patronage over three millions fit ling, in addition to what was already porefed Ly the Government. Any inconvenience of trade was better than that the Minifter ffiould acquire fuck an extraordinary power. He meant this as no particu lar refie&ion, but mentioned it as applying to any Minifter. As to the cafe of Sir George Barlow, his opinion was unaltered. Even though what the Ho. nourable Gentleman (Mr. Paull) bad laid Ihould be correß, Rill his obfervations were proper. Minders had gratuitoufly appointed him on the zfith of Feb. ruary, and removed him fourteen days after. Now, why was he appointed at all, if it was in contempla tion to remove him fo Coon ? All the powers of Go vernor General would have remained with him by devolution till the appointment of a fuecefor, except the power of exercifing the higheß functions of the office without the cocfent of the Council—a power In extraordinary, that it had never been exercifed.—. The charge therefore remained in full force. Sir ARTHUR WELLESLEY obferved, that the loans which the Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Paull) Rated would become due in 5807, would, in fad, not be doe till iflog•to. In the Mahrstta war, the expenfes had been great, but the Cervices bad alto been great, and in no inftance there was fo much ferviee at left expenfe. The Sinking Fund in India had had great efficacy in keeping down the difcount on the Government Securities, and in enabling the Company to obtain loans at a low interen, and in fad they had of late obtained them at 8 per cent. Mr. PAULL obferved, that they had not obtain. ed them at lets than fourteen per cent. and accounted for the Honourable General's minake, by Rating that more than two thirds of the loans were made at Lucknow and &flares, and the fecurity given en the Calcutta rupees, which were of a higher value. He adverted to the Charter of the Company, and dis tended that they were indebted to Government in the turn of five or fix millions, and that Govern. ment had a right to feixe upon their buildings, plate, Etc. ice. for the debt. It was not to be fuppofid that they were to have their Charter for nothing. Sir ARTHUR WELLESLEY explained. Mr. Alderman PRINSEP agreed with the Ho. nourable General that the Sinking Fund lowered the rate of intereft in India, but could go with him no further. Mr. GRANT obrerved, tharas to the claim of the 500,0001. a year from the Company, it was only to be paid out of the furplus revenue of the Company at home, and the late.Mioifter, who was fufficiently de• firous of finding out any refoince that could ran the fupplies ' was convinced that, under the circum ances of the cafe, the claim could not be fubtlantiated. He admitted that the credit of the Company had been improved in India, and that loans were made at A lower rate of intact). But the reafon was, that bet• ter feourity was given. Infleasi of bonds in India • payable at a very late period, Marquis Wellefley had given feeurity in England. He thought this, how. ever, a very improper made of proceeding, as it fob jelled the Company to sudden and large datnendsand betides, it was too great a power to enroll to any Governor, who might ufe it as a refoorce, when he had large views, to the detriment of the Company. The Government at home ought, indeed, to reftrift the Governor General on this point. As to laying that the Directors had approved,of this becanfe they were talent, he would not enter upon this. The fail was, that they had long endured many things of which they did nut approve. But he certainly was of opinion that the giving this fort of ferurity ought not to be formed into a fyllem. With regard to the ekehange between Lucknow and Calcutta he was in. dined to agree with the Honourable Gentleman over the way (Mr.Paull). The exchange between Madras, the feveral Prefidencies, and Calcutta was very ex penfive ; and what with that and the boodles, he would venture to fay, that thofe loans were the molt expenfive ever made. With regard to the Sinking Fund, it was not of the nature of the Sinking Fund in England, for ennead of being compofed of the pro. duce of taxes railed for the purpofe of fupplying it ; it was taken from the malt of the money which would have gone in fame other fbape to the difcharge or diminution of the deb:, and therefore he did not think it of much ufe. Mr. JONES, in explanation, faid, that he had not Rated that they were forty millionsobut that he be• lieved they were nearer forty than thirty. Mr. GR ANT denied that the debt was fo great as had been Rated by the Honourable Gentleman. Mr. MARTIN commented on the conftration of the Atl by which the Company held their Charter, and laid that it clearly appeared from it, that when the Company were in Itraitened circurnftances the payment was only furpended, and they now were debtorsto the public for fix millions. The only ex cult mutt be their inability to pay, and he hardly thought that chi, excufe would be retorted to, as it would amount to a conteifion that they had been in. folven• ever lince the year 5793. Mr. HUDDLES I'JNE laid, that feveral of the Directors had not attended, becaufe the various In dia accounts, and the whole of the Budget, had been laid before the Houle with the greatell accnracy.—• Ile then entered into a view of the fpeech of an Hon. Alderman (Ptintep) out a fi.rite• night. He con- tended, that the genet al benefits wiling from the commerce of the Eatt India Company were very great. This was pattictilaely the cafe with regard to woollens, which they exported with lofs to them• (elves, Oat which employed +noon people in this