Star. — London, England, 1827-05-04 00:00:00

'er md la CV Of on old bo he led ese r her, nn the ground of his hostility, to this same islen ,„2l question of Catholic Emancipation—(Cheering). When I remember those palpable inconsistencies, I can not brio.; myself to think they caa be reconciled by the wools and jokes of the Hon. aid Learned Member for Winchelsea—(Cbeering). Wnen I remember, too, the recent motion of the Hoo.Member lor Armagh, against the lord Chancellor of Ireland, and the zealous sup port given to that motion by the Hon. Member for Calne,and his repetitions,on that occasion,of old charges, I W ill not say ova ad aamseana—and when I see those H o n. Gentlemen, friends of the Catholic Question, join. ing an Administratioa under which a Catholic Secre tary, and Catholic Lord Lieutenant, are joined to a protestant Chancellor, for one of the first acts of that Administration was, to ask Lord Manners to retain his office .in Ireland—when I behold all those circum stances, am I not justified in saying, that this union of t he Wing party with the Government is a most strange proceeding ? When I see the question of Parliamentary Reform, and the motion on the Church of Ireland post poned, and remember the objects of those motions, I reel myself induced also to postpone my iupport of the present Administration until I shall know how these questions have been adjusted between the Honourable G ent i tm en—whether they are left open—and the con ditions on which the Whigs have consented to take office—whether they have stipulated to abandon or still to support ale question of Parliamentary Reform? --{Cheerin4. Sir FRANCIS BURDETT and Mr. BROUGHAM rose at the same moment, but the latter caught the eye of the Chair for the purpose ot explaining. He said that the Right Hon. Gentleman who had last spoken had touched upon a variety of points, but had not at- tempted to answer a syllable of his (Mr. Brougham's) sprech.—(Cries of of spoke.") Mr. DUNCOMBE here rose to order, and said, that in that case the Hon. and Learned Gentleman could hare nothing to explain, and couli not be permitted to say over again what he had already delivered. Mr. BROUGHAM said, that the Right Hoe. Gentleman need not be so alarmed, for what he had already slid he was not going to say over again. —(A Itugh.)—What he wished to explain was this—the Right Hon. Gent. had said that he (Mr. Brougham) had ascribed to him the epithet of being factious for putting ' particular questions ot a debateable natnre.What he had said was this—that it looked like faction (Hon. Mem- Le s or core ter of e l 11. ben knew best their own motives) to interpose a ques tion of such a nature as this. at the •ery moment when another Hon. Member was upon his legs to introduce the regulde motion which stood for that evening's dis rossion. Sir F. BURDETT.—Sir, though unwilling to pro. tract this most irregular discussion, I am compelled to trespass on the patience of the House, while I repel the insinuations of want of principle, and the charges of inconsistency which have been made by the Right Hon. Gentleman who has just sat down. Sir, I have long participated with the Gentlemen who at present occupy the other side of the House, in sentiments of respect for the manly candour, and discretion, which have hitherto characterized the speeches of that Right Honourable Gentleman. But, I must say, that. to-night, I consider Lim infected by the virulence of his friends on the oppo site benchei-:-I.r the Hon. Gentleman has not confined himself, as he did the other night, to a fair and manly de fence melt and his colleagues, and to a temperate ez • amnion of his and 'hell• motives for resigning, when he took occasion to defend himself so ‘Atislactorily against charges that had never been made—(A laugh) but, to night he turns from vindications of himself to accusa tions against others ; and I must adJ, that he has as little season to censure us for joining the new Government, as we have to blame bins for abandoning it. As to the distinctions of Whig and Tory, I am neither one nor the ether; in fact, the terms have no meaning at this time, sad ought to be forgotten with the feelings that created them. But, Sir, 1 crass myself as an English subject, ready to support the true principles of the British Con stitution; and though it has been my lot lot many years to have opprased the Ministers of the Crown, I confess I am happy in having, at last, obtained an opportunity of proving that my declarations of constitutional loyalty in the Crown are something more than empty profes sions, and of giving unto the Crown my most zealous support against the intrigues of a junta of Gentle men, aho wanted to place the King in a dilemma, the embarrassments of which would, they hoped, com pel him to accept their tervices--(loud cheering)... whether he would have them or not. I did not, os this occasion, intend to give utterance to any ezprea. sion of feeling, or bitterness, or taunt, against the Right Hon. Gentleman oppos.te, or his friends, as I lad hoped that tke Right Honourable Gentleman would have come to the discussion with that charac teristic candour of his, of which I see no sign at present, and with that usual temper, and that discretion, which, I regret to say, h.iee deserted him in the course of his speech of tonight. How much then, was I sur prised to see the Right Hon. Gentleman advancing from his lines of prudent, cautious, self-defence, and inning insinuations and accusations against myself and my Hon. Friends around me—insinuations which I de liberately and most decisively pronounce to be totally destitute of foundation ? (Cheers). What right has he to impute to us motives of personal interest? What mcrite—what object of personal interest, can I have in political changes? And what, I will ask, is the reason of the unnecessary warmth which bas been introduced into the present discussion, which has been raised in a manner, neither wise, fair, candid, nor, indeed, consis tently with the usage of Parliament?—(hear, hear, !) —or, if it be within the rules, it trenches too closely upon them to be consistent with discretion. But I ponsider, I re peat, the course that has been taken, unfair—particu. fatly unfair, when the Right Hon. Gentleman set out with promising—the House had seen how he had adhered to that promise—not to enter upon the discussion of the topics which had raised the present debate. I put it to the House to say, whether that Right Honourable Gentleman's speech consisted of tray thing but a discussion of those topics--(Hear). Such conduct as this on his part seems to me as if he were caving, a longing, lingering look behind."— l'-a3ihter, with loud continued cheers). He knows best * ll, l are the yearnings of his heart; he knows best "hat motives influenced him when he resigned his office but Int colleagues doing the same thing at the same time, miihout, as we have been assured, without concert ( `'"liller). Granting it was without concert, and we are h ound so to believe it, from the declarations which bar e been made to that effect, I may, however, perhaps, "Pefented to call it a sympathetic concert of a most ! ti "dinary nature—(Cher). Whatever - may have ut z en the i ntent i ons of the part i es, I say i t was a :nose r t tlordinat y concurrence, occuring in a most eatraor -11,17 minim. Whether the Right Hon. Gentle" . . man and his co-seceders intended by their tineoncerted i resignation to intimidate the King or not—whether they , ntended to place their Sovereign in a dilemma, from which it would have been difficult for him to have extricated himself—l cannot, or rather I will not say— (Loud and continued cheers.) I have said that I cannot, And will not state (as it is impassible for me to know) what were the intentions of the Right Honourable Gen• tleman I have alluded to; but my opinion is—or, rather, let me say, would have been, had it not been for the declarations which assure me that the contrary is the fact—(Cheers)—my opinion, I say, would have been— and so, I think, would have been that of every man throughout the country, possessing common sense, and merely looking at the circumstances that appeared to attend these resignations—that it was a concerted attempt to fetter their King in the exercise of his just prerogative—(Cries of No, no!' with cheers). — That,. I repeat, guided only by reason and the appa- - rent circumstances. would have been the natural, proper, inevitable conclusion. One of my chief rea- . sons for supporting the present Administration is, I hesitate not to avow, that I consider it will maintain the independence of the King in the exercise of his rights— (Continued cheers). That I consider a sufficient justifica tion of my conduct on that part of the subject. I will tell the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Peel) what he seems very Anxious to know, viz. why I do not conceive it would be wise, prudent, or safe, to decide immediately either of the great questions—Catholic Emancipation and Parliamentary Reform—which he and his friends now appear so desirous to press upon the consider ition of the House. It seems to be news to the Right Hon. Gentleman, that t•iere ate as many shades of opinion among those wRo genera,ly supported those questions, as there could be on any subject whatever. Some wish to have narrower, and some more extended, lim is than others. I, because I cannot get tbe whole of what I want, do not, thertfoi e, think myself bound to cast away what is within my reach ; and I do not conceive, that by. supporting the pres-nt Ministry, whose influence I consider will be beneficial to the questions I advocate, that I. at all, abandon or sacrifice those questions, or; in the least, hurt any measures, of which 1 may at dif iferent times have favourably expressed my sentiments. The Catholic Question is one I have particularly it heart, and I think that the change of Ministry will, in time, effect good for it ; and I am content to seise the prospect of that good,withost considering whether more good may possibly be attained by what I should con sider an imprudent course. I feel bound to snatch all the good which the opportunity of the moment offers— ' (Hear, hear). Whenever any good principle can be, by any feeble efforts of mine, promoted or advanced in the slightest degree, they Right Hon. Gentleman will have the opportunity of taunting me with a dereliction from the principles I always have maintained, and always will maintain, till life has departed from me--(Loud and long cheers). The Right Hon. Gentleman has mad: some allusions to my Learned and Honourable Friend (Mr. Brougham), in which, I think, he has been particu larly unfortunate; as is,, indeed, what has fallen from, another Honourable ca-Secretary opposite—and what ever I may apply to the one may equally apply to the other; for it has not been on this, as it was on the other night, when their speeches differed as much in wisdom as in discretion; to-night they differed only in the choice of their words and the nature of their intemperance. Both have given way to honest roger and passion, of un. controuled, ensubdued, unmitigated expression of feel. .ing, aumingled wish a shade of rea.on or sound discre tio•—(Hear, hest) lam gratified—l Am rejoiced at it. The Right Hon. Gentlemen, for I speak of both, could hardly have done a greater service to the Ministers or to his Majesty, than expressing their feelings as they have dbne. My Learned Friend, upon whom they have cast such unfounded aspersions, stands in a most extraordinary predicament. I may say of him, that newer was there a public man that stood in a situation so conspicuous. rendering that situation still more con spicuous by the exertion, both in and out of the House, of unrivalled abilities—who has made such sacrifices to serve, what be considered the interests of his country. He has put aside-every feeling of pride and ambition, not to impede an arrangement-which would forward the happiness of his country. I may apply to him what was said of a conspirator in a bad cause, but which my Learned Friend may have applied to him, being engaged in the best—(Chetrs)--that " a States. man may be calumniated tkroughout his life, and yet all the while may be. acting from motives the most pure and the most patriotic"—(Hear, hear). I should not, in the presence of my Learned Ft end, have said thus much, and it falls_ far short of what is hi. due, had not I been in justice compelled to do it, in answer to the insnuations which the Right Hon ourable Gentleman has thrown out against him. As . far as lam concerned, lam like my Learned Friend r, , I have nothing to hope for, nothing to expect, from the retirement of the Right Hon. Gentleman. Not that . I mean to say, that lat all wish them back agAin— - - (Laughter)—for 1 consider, that if nothing be gained but their withdrawal, that will, of itself, be an inesti mable good—(Cheers and laughter). AU we have lost is the narrow-minded, biggotted part of the late Ad ministration—(Hear, hear, hear.) Two hundred years back they might ha►e been highly estimated by the country, but they are not in the least adapted for the century in which we live—(Cheers). Their resignation will, iii my mind, leave the public nothing to regret, but will, 1 think, give it cause to rejoice that they have left the intellectual part of the late Cabinet free from so burdensome a load. It is not only the people who have cause for gladness—it will, I am sure, be grateful to the mind of the King himself, when he sees, as he will see, the *flintier in which the people will support him against the faction which has with drawn from his Ministry. He will see how much better it is—how much more secure, more safe, ho nourable, and glorious it is, in a King of England, to have the basis of his power resting deep in the hearts of his people, rather than on the nai row foundation of any combination of factious Nobles, however strong.-(Lout and long continued cheers, mingled with cries of Or. der).—Some of the assertions made by those Gentlemen who have done the country the favour to retire:(A laugh)—are so singular and extraordinary, that it is impossible for me to pass them over without comment of some kind. Those Gentlemen have now discovered for the first time, that there is a portion of the Public Press of this country influenced by the Administration —(Hear)—that part of it specially deals in false. hood and calumny. All I can say is, that whilit that Press was supporting, on most subjects, the purity of those Gentlemen, supporting it, too, powertully aad continually, we never heard a word of its corrupt- ness—(Hear, hear).—l must not, however, conceal, that they have freed their former colleagues from all reproach in the negotiations which had been carried on, sod tjtat l .the_eefore_, no reflection Can be cast upon the "p4e*.ent Administration to maintain the dignity of the Throne; end also, as I contend, to,l promote the interests of th: country, which is the para mount consideration of all. But, in expressing my opi nion of the line of conduct that has been taken tonight, I can with difficulty find words to convey my feelings orsurpriseand disgust. (Hear, hear). During the whole of the time I 'base had the honour to sit in Parliament, I never saw so factious, so bigottedly ignorant an Oppo. sitioo. • (Loud cheering, with laughter). Hon. Gentle. men opposite are pleased to laugh. What they mean by so doing I cannot tell ; but if they mean to say, that when I and my friends were in the Opposition, we were factious, opposing without object, the Government the King had been pleased to appoint, I challenge them to produce an instance of such conduct. Let those who laughed, if they mean any any thing, put their laugh into form. that it may be answered. At present it is life the shake of Lord Burleigh's head, no doubt hav ing a meaning, but which it :elicited an interpreter to render intelligible (Hear). I say in contrast to tht conduct of the present Oppsition, stands that which was pursued by my self and friends. I will also say, for, situa.ed as I am, no bad motive can be imputed to me in saying it, that a more constitutional, disinterested Opposition never met in that House. It was hardly to be called an Opposition, for it dragged—(a laugh)— or rather supported, the Ministry against the efforts that were made to drag it back in the opinion of the public, and enabled it to pass many of those measures which had begun to gain credit wi(h the public, in spite . . of the bad and rotten - members of which it was in pact composed. I feel that the Administration, and I know that the Public feel it also, has got rid of a weight which has long oppressed it. That is my opinion upon what has taken place with regard to the secession of these Gentlemen from the King's Governmest. The Right Honourable Gentleman who was now at the head of the Administration had been, among other attacks' made upon him, uot only accused of personal ambition' —which I consider no accusati u at all—but of having ------ In the porches of the Royal ear Poised kproos poison. No man can with justice make against the Right Hon. Gentleman that reproach. If to support the King in his rights—if to give him good honest advice —was pouring leprous poison into his ear, the charge was)ust; but there are none in this House who would justify such a re proach. lam not accusing the Right Hon. Gentleman, I can assure him. He seems to think that be is the onl person concerned in this affair—(Loud laughter). With all his acknowledged modesty, he has not yet forgotten to put us in mind either of himself or of his services-. (Laughter). The Right Honourable Gentleman hail also taken upon him to answer for all his colleagues, ancl • forgetting their numbers, he spoke for the whole squad., (Loud laughing). The violence of his feelings, 1 sup pose, induced him to do this, and it has afforded moths' highest gratification—(Hear). The Right Honourable' Gentleman has talked about his principles upon the Catholic Question s- and that they had induced him to throw up his siteation. if that be a justification fort the part we have taken has the same justification. It is a two-edged sword, cutting two ways. There are other reasons than have yet been stated why the great questions which have been alluded to should not new r be decided. Do those. who now wish to. thrust them Upon us, think we shall be so easily duped, as to be in-.' duced to run upon those rocks which divide public opinion? It was that fact of the people being di vided upon those Brest questions, that rendered their present decision inexpedient. The causes both of Par liamentary Reform and Catholic Emancipation must advance by means of public opinion, and by no other means. Neither I, nor any other Parliamentary Re-. former, ever dreamt of raising the standard of Rebel lion, if Reform was not granted. No; we have worked by constitntional means upon what, I trust, are sound principles, which will be sure, in the end, to accomplish our objects, if we do not suffer ourselves to be carried away by over-heated zeal, or by the taunts of our evil wishers. Now, Sir, I consider that a great good has been obtained for the country by the withdrawal of the seceders, who, however much they might consider the reasons of their withdrawal satisfac. tory to their friends and the House, are, I ,can assure them, much more satisfactory .to the people. Something of that sort of change has been effected in the Cabinet, which often takes place in Bills that go up stairs, when the brains of the Committee are said to be knocked out. (A laugh). The only difference is, that the case is here reversed, and the brains have been knocked in. (Laughter). I have no doubt the intellec tual part of the Cabinet which has been preserved, will, with the support of the disinterested opposition, be able to maintain the King in the maintenance of all his rights. The country will have good cause to rejoice in it, for all those great principles, upon which its happiness rested, •ould have scope to progress. Ireland, I was this day informed, by good authority, already feels the influence of what has taken place. (Loud and con tinued cheers). The Catholic Association, which has long been considered as formidable in that country, has taken the opportunity to give beforehand, as it were, proofs of what may be expected from it, by the pursu ance of a liberal course of policy, by not now urging. their claims, but resting satisfied with the prospect be fore them. They now feel the influence of the dawn of hope, which I, the other night,. said, was breaking upon Ireland, and which Ethink is for the present suf ficient, notwithstanding what the Honourable Baronet opposite says abobt the necessity for immediate mea sures being taken. Ireland trusts to the effect of time, reason, and the dictates of prudence upon the people of England. The Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Peel) may have taken a post which he cannot quit, but the people of England are not stationary; mind is still upon the march—(Loud cheering)—and those just and enlightened principles of policy which I always have, and always will defend, will, sooner or later, have their triumph—(Hear, hear). Although convinced of this, I shall not be a bit more backward in advo cating what I think best for the advancement of the public interest. I will say with the Right Honourable Gentleman, that I will maintain, through go 'd report and through bad report, the principles which, I think, have that tendency. But, I trust, the time is past when we can stand still, much less go back. We can, there fore, only proceed onward, the only matter for our con sideration being time and opportunity, and the pur suing such a prddent line of conduct as will not risk the public peace from over zeal—(Loud and long continued cheers). SirC.SURRBLL inquired whether thelion.Baronet had alluded to him, when he remarked span a Member who laughed at one of his ob.ervationa? • Sir F. BURDETT disclaimed having alluded to the Hon: Ban. Sir EDWARD KNATCHBULL rose.—He would not enter into the question of faction, as Sit had .been !salloi; butte must say that the Howie bad not been fairly dealt by. It was an importailt point for the House to know upon what principles -the Government was meant to be carried on—(Cheers); and, above all, of what men it was to be composeciat(tirar, hear). ♦n Han. Member had made an observation about looking . to measures, and not to men. Now, in his °pink*, this observation was not very alien from nonsenso.—(A laugh). It was not now a question of curiosity, but of great paramount public intesest. Was it not Rght that the public should lovas, those with whom they might have occasion to communicate? It was not telling Hon. Gentlemen who asked for inlotntation, that they wese connected with faction, that would satisfy the people. He could not sit down without offering the Right Han. Gentleman (the late Secretary of State for the Home D.partment) his thanks for the course he had taken, both doting the time he was in, and since he had been oner i af office (Cheers). The m inliness of his character and conduct, was above all praise. He should have been glad to have sten the Government placed upon the same footing as it was during the life of Lord Liverpool; but he was afraid that it would have been impossible, as no man, be he eh° he might, could have carried that confidence with him, which L ord L. inspired in both Houses of Parliament. That the Admi nistration had been ultimately formed of such discord ant materials, was highly to be reg:etted, as it could never carry confidence in its measures—(hear !)—and they must bear in mind that it was upon the confidence . 4 the great proportion of that House that the Ministers must rely. Before they could grant that confidence, the Administration ought to expose the principles on which they meant to act. He should be happy at all times to give his support to an honest efficient Govern ment, which would coalesce together, and act in concert, which he feared would never be the case with the present. (Loud and cont inued cheering). That night had offered them a specimen of what they might expect. Could any thing, he would ask, be more irteconcileable to reason than that, when the Government of "the country was asked to explain to that House of Parliament the prin ciples en which the AJministration was constituted, the explanation demanded should not come from the Ministers of the Crown, but from the Hon. and Learned Gentlemen opposite, the Members for Wiethelsea and Westminster ? The first Hon. Member, it had been said, would be able to give more efficient and able support to the Government, out of office, than he would its. That he bad given able and liberal support, they had seen—and it was only to be regretted that they could nothave the benefit of his services. The Hon. Baronet concluded by saying, that as long as the Government was constituted as it now was, without meaning any disrespect to the talents of the Gentlemen who tom• posed it, it would be impossible fot it to enjoy the con fidence of the country. Mr. CANNING.--Sir, I again rise, and I regret it can only be in explanation. 'The Hon. Gentleman op. posite has, in the course of his didactic speech, refecred to an expression made use of by me. Now, Sir, I do not, and cannot object to his opposition ; but there are rules of courtesy and of convenience, acknowledged by both sides of the House, which, in the whole course of my Parliamentary experience, I never saw violated to the degree they have been to-night. (Hear, hear.) An Hon. Member having asked leave to put a question to the King's Government, he proceeded, under pretence of introducing and explaining his question, to enter into a discussion which tended to raise a long de• bate, and that, too, in the midst of another motion, long since apppointed, and of the greatest importance and interest to the country. It is of that I' complain, and and not of the opposition to the Government. Such courses, if pursued, would pervert Parliamentary pro. ceedings, and lead to the necessary consequence, that no Minister will think himself bound to answer ques tions so put at all. An Honourable Mi-mber has com. plained of my not being in my place to answer clues. tions; but I should have been surprised if I had been called upon to answer a question leading to a motion so absurd, and which every body must see was. made for the mere purpose of introducing an inflammatory speech—(Loud cheers.) But I rejoice that the stan dard of opposition is declared unturled—(The cheer ing, we may say shouting, from all parts of the House continued frr some minutes). It is worth a thousand professions of neutrality—(Laud and con tinued cheering). Whoever entertains that sentiment, I hope, will come boldly forward. and he will find me as boldly prepared to meet him—(Great cheer ing). As I am upon my legs and ready, I hope I may be allowed to answer two questions, although by the rules of Parliament! know I am not entitled to do so—(Hear,bear). I have been asked, what I should do with respect to Parliamentary Reform? I answer, op. pose it—(Tremendous cheering). I have been asked, how I should treat the Test Act? I reply, oppose its repeal—(Loud and long continued cheers). It is a qeestion which has never been brought forward in Parliament, ald on which I bare never given a ;rote. But, Sir, I have, nevertheless, an opinion upon it, and that opinion is agaitot the repeal of that Act. I am for redressing practical, not theoretical, griev ances; and I consider that the removal of the Test Act would, so far from being .a benefit, prove an evil. (Hear, hear, bear). I hope 1 have now spoken out.' (i.oudcheering)..l hope it will not be again said, that Government, when called upon to explain facts, referred to others to give those explanations. But 1 deny the fact of having been called upon. The whole of the speech in which thateall is said to have been made, was addressed to those who have joined the Govern ment without taking office. It was for that reason that the Members for Winchelsea and Westminster, rose in their places to answer. That a question was put to me, Sir. is untrue, and I never did shrink, and never will shrink, to meet either armed or disarmed opposition.— The R ght Hon. Gentleman sat down amidst the most deafening applaase. Sir E. KNATCH BULL, in explanation, said, tide he was very sorry the Right Hon. Gent:eman's temper had been put to so severe a trial, but he should have wished the Right Hon. Gentleman to have examined what he (Sir E. K.) had said; with more care, before he (Mr. C.) said it was untrue.—(Hear.)—He (Sir E. K.) had said, that when it was laid upon the Government to state the principles upon which the Administration was constituted, the Hon. Members for Winchelsea sad Westminster had given the explanation. He never said that the'Right Honourable Gentleman referred to them ; they volunteered to do it; and he' did not believe that the Right Hon. Gentleman would have condescended to have referred to them to give explanations of his prin ciples. After this explanation ,on his part, he hoped the Right Hon. Gentleman Would cwt. refuse to retract the expression he had used. Mr. CANNING = I am sorry te Mat I Mink the mien. don makes the accusation-wen& • Thease. Baronet mistakes's'. 1i 1 i ! •, : i 1 t M 1 , .• ' I , 1 ' i 0 ' i ‘ ; , 1 1 . tiNt' 1 . . .1 . 1 1 1 ( ,I ' i I • ' r V 4 ' is . i i 1, I , 1 ~. , a ll i I t : . . 1i- t I• 1