Star. — London, England, 1813-07-03 00:00:00

S ent Gentleman he was informed, if the Bill passed, a estate which he intended to dispose of, should be noiediately withdrawn. Tbe hardship in the regu. twins concerning the disposal of goods and chattels, ppearcd to be great, and the Crown in all appear. sce would have a fresh accession of power, from the implicated securities to be given in the future sale f estates. The Solicitor of Excise would have a most 'rofitable situation, provided the Bill passed, by !riming out multitudes of bonds, though he did not :o so far as to say that the person who would draw he bonds, had any hand in drawing the Bill—(4 r.gh.) He was glad that his observation respecting e printing of the Bill had contributed to make it üblic, and that its propositions had become the sub. ect of discussion among intelligent men, in whose rtinds it had excited no inconsiderable apprehensions loth for the welfare of a body of respectable•persons, knd the tonne prosperity of the revenue. Mr. FREENIANTLE said, he had been given to inderstand, that the Honourable Proposer of the Oeasure contemplated an alteration of that clause,' vhich regulated the sale of goods and chattles, so hat it ni•ght be less objectionable to profession . * per. Moons. He h.. d likewise learned, that the clause which enacted secure y by bond for the duty on the 'sale of . ':states, was to be modified. Now, it appeared to im, that the latter clause, as it now stood, went to mpose restrictions of a severe deicription on every andholdtr, who, from particular . circumstances or amily enihairasioents, might find it necessary to dis. ose °Phis property. Other parts of the Bill were mewhat mysterious, and required explanation ; for stance, in what manner were itinerant Auctioneers it) be distinguished from the respectable stationary uctioneers ? Though he knew how to distifiguisb hem himself, the Bill had not pretended to furnish im with any means of recognition, and he would he lad that the Hon. Proposer of the measure would t .te whom he contemplated as permanent, and whey) a p.rambulatiog Auctioneers. Mr. WHARTON informed the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, that he had been misinfor• ;road wit). respect to his ;mentions of making altera tions in those cl.inses which he had pointed out. He !really had nut contemplated any modification in the ne, or amendment in the other. With respect to e. distinction drawn between resident and itinerant to to neers, he conceived that it required little ex leiettion ; because every one knew a respectable' rind-street or Fleet-street Auctioneer from one of hose who perambulated the country, and established i h t. r a few da:, s a ,s,le-room ir. a village or a borotigh. tech was leis manner of making the distinction, and e believed that die person who drew up the Bill o•aemplaied the same when 'he framed the clause. Inch di ff erence of opinion, he believed, did exist ,' oncernii g the first clause; but those who'believed 1t th:it the B h had been brought la solely for the pur pose 01 IV pressing mock Auctions, had misunderstood Otte measure ;rem its commencement, because it was mended from the beginning to be applied to another •ied • t pier tice. 11e alluded to a practice which he eves infeinted had - become pretty general, namely, tint a person ‘03() had the sale of an estate in con. entelatien, connitaica.ed his resolution to another i ,I so:: i•eely to become a purchaser, and demanded certain sum (say ten thousand pounds) fur his pro , erty ; the other Fety, however, having duly con. sideteei the i filee come, to the determination of giv 'ng eight ttee.:arel petards for the estate, and no more ; up , n IA Lech they come to the resolution that re rtrl et ty shall be el:posed to sale, which is accor a it. : ty don--; and it it 1- net purchased for more their .reb , a so, Lie estate i, tioN ; 111 in, and the private biddet becomes the pie-chest r. New the duty on Auctions, lie apereliended. was imposed on the benefit of cern. petiti..n, ano a con.ideraele advantage was contem plated to arise fir en allowing the principle of compe te on to lia.ve runt opetatiiin. To operate against th at de ,criet;: n of re:es, -the fit ft clause had been framed, altd to whice, he believed, the er.nciple re Aucieni-dut y. we, tor' st applicable. 1 - le hid alw ys apprehended mach ci.&rence would arise on that point, but he heped lie had made his views distinct :o all who heard him. With respect -to the state tents of the conversation contained in the lettet /Inch the :lon. Gtritlernan ( pposito had communi ;ated to the Hause, he begged leave ti observe, that tie had received a letter of the same descriution. Ht fha I, however, some tecollection ef the convereatioe cLich Pressed between his Right Hon. Friend the ltancclioe of the Exc!iequer enti himself with those -,tlemen, and that conference had left impressions his mir4l something different from what it ap '-'BlCa to Have made . on theirs. He did not know .Tether this difference might not arise from the ha. ritual politeness of these Gentlemen's manners, which id softened their appearance of hostility tp the meet.' tore, and caused him to meet them with something like certespondent affability. Certain it was, le-w -‘ver, they, according to his recollection, signified ieir satisfaction— [Mr. WIIITBREAD whispered :foss the table, 44 IVith your civility, perhaps, but not' IA the Bill."J No, lie understood they were satis.! ted with the Bill ; he had no remembrance of the I :xpression concerning making an experiment of the 1 neasure. It was nonsense as applied to the Bill in l contemplation, arid could never have been employed except in a vague and uncertain manner, in those little hesitations which sometimes arose in conversa.' ion. The Bill was brought in for the purpose of meting an acknowledged evil, and he hoped it would carried into effect with some inconsiderable modi., teatzen:e Mr. W. SMITH said, he apprehended that the in. Gentleman who spoke last had mistaken the iriticiple of the measure entirely. It appeared to him, 1)4 the case which he hid mentioned, of disposing if an estate for eight thousand pounds was liable to , very different construction ; for in all probability the estate w, uld be purchased at tie auction•room rot more than what h.:el been contemplated by some \undreds of pounds, by which means the revenue mold gain ' considerably. A Gentleman, a friend if his, had iitfoi mid him, that an experiment simi. kr to that at present under consideration had been introduced in France. .Fortnuely it appeared that ,he rate of auction-duty in that country was only one tall per cent. but the new measure increased it to 3 lit cent. which banished auctions wholly from Drys. is,'Bourdeaux, and other places, and had an effect inischieverus*on the auctions at Paris, that the Go. ernment very recently taking into consideration'the !teat clareale Of revenue, allel if Ong Ille warehin?Seil • . • • • . . _ ailed with Act fashinited merchandise which the sate: . .was among the reasons which stggested the necessity tions were wont to remove, consented to relinquish of this part of the. Bill, to which he trusted the Ho their enactments, and frame a treasure more. rote.' noatrahle Gentleman would not seriously object; and rant, and consequently more productive. Such being as to the part which the Hon. Gentleman opposeal;a the situation of Fiance under similar regulations, he proposition to rescind it would, he submitted, come sincerely hoped that the lesson might induce the Mi- . before the House with much more propriety on Mon nisters of Britain to consent to the postponement or day next. the anal renunciation of the present measure. 1 Mr. HUSKISSON suggested the propriety of Mr. HUSKISSON declared, that it became the giving a pledge not to pieis the objectionable part of duty of the House to consider whether the present the bill on Monday, nor until the next Sessions ; and revenue arising from Auctions would in all probabi. in that case he presumed' that the Hon. Gentleman lily be of the same amount with an extensive dimi- on the other side would have no objection to with tuition of sale, which- every reasonable person might , draw his amendment. But even if the amendment contemplate. An alteration, he perceived, had been should • be carried, no public inconvenience could made in the period for which bonds had to be given follow, because that part of the Bill which referred in case of estates being bought in : now this tended to mock Auctions, might be again brought forward little to diminish the difficulties of the Auctioneers ; in a separate Bill. the sales might not be concluded for a considerable i The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER period, and the influence of the bonds still continued. I admitted, that he himself felt some of the objections Now, in case of the property being lona fide bought ! urged against the part of the Bill particularly alluded in, and not sold by private contract within the twelve- :to by the Honourable Gentleman who had just sat month, the time limited, application might be made i down, and by other Gentlemen also. He intended to certain Commissioners, who were empowered to i therefore to propose on Monday certain modifications grant relief, provided that every thing was duly provedl.! of the measure, but he felt it his duty to persist in But no relief was to be granted, unless the authenti , • supporting the principle of the first clause, with city of the auction was fully and satisfactorily proved; : which his objections were connected. unless it was made manifest that the auctioneer had Mr. FREEMANTLE was of opinion. that as so . exalted his voice in a very audible niannt'r, till all the many Gentlemen declared their inability to attend audience were satisfied of the sum bidden, and the , on Monday, and as the Chancellor of the Exchequer Commissioners therhselves were convinced that the ! expressed his determint4on to persist in the principle professional Gentleman had repeatedly proclaimld objected to. it would be advisable to come to a deci the amount of the biddings, and also that. every , siert this evening, and therefore he should support person had heard and were satisfied.—(4 laugh.) the amendment. Indeed the question was soimpor i hat extraordinary accumulation of proofs tendA to 1 tint, affecting as it did all the landed interest ef the involve the Auctioneers in distress and difficulty.— ! country, considering that no less than landed pro. He was sure, if the Bill passed, that any Auctioneer party to the amount of five millions was annually in a respectable employment would hesitate to con- ' disposed of by auction, and that the auction duty tinue his profession any longer, and all who had exceeded £380,000 a-year, that no time should be estates to sell would hesitate to offer them up to sale. lost in disposing of a measure that mmterialiy endan- i He could almost name the person who framed this gered such extensive interest. measure—he was some Gentleman very assiduous Sir C. BURRELL supported the Amendment. about the Board of Excise, but he apprehend* d that Mr. Pit OTHE ROE disapproved of that part er i the persons who were in the habit of collecting revenue Bill which referred to the sale of lauded papery, but paid little attention to the sources of its prosperity, wished the part relating to Mao k-Auctions to pass and the consequence was, when they proceeded to into law. legislate their measures might be productive of em- Mr. C. W. WYNNE spoke against the auction duty barrassment and mischief. The Ministers ought to upon land altogether, thinking that the %%hole duty pass that part of the Bill which remedied the evils should be imposed upon the conveyance, which would arising from mock Auctions, and postpone the part s lye much to sauplify business. Under the provi . relating to resident Auctioneers till all the parties sions of this Bill he amnia that great litigation, with 1 had leisure to consider it and come to some proper seine difficulty in makilig out titles, was too likely to determination. arise, and for this, withotf•er reasons already stated, Mr. LOCKHART apprehended that the measure interfered too tar ith the transfer of property, and might be exceedingly injurious to the Stamp and consideration duties. The bonds proposed to be en tered into were an incumbrance upon property, and would have the effect of charging the land to a con siderable amount. Did they expect that trustees would give bonds that would encumber the lands of others which they were appointed to protect ? The measure originated in a desire to relieve the fair trader from the evil operation of the mock Auctions, and it appeared highly improper to engraft some thing on the Bill of a very different nature and prin ciple. Let them have a Bill for the protection of the fair trader, and then let them have a separate Bill for imposing an additional duty on him, but do not couple such dissonant propositions together. Besides, he apprehended that hawkers and pedlars, against whom appeared no clause in the Bill, would be ena bled to become formidable rivals to the legitimate traders. From every circumstance lie really thought the Hon. Gentleman might be induced to acquiesce ' in the proposal for the postponement of the measure to another Session. he should vote for the Amendment. Mr. FRANKLAND LEWIS conceiving that every day must be calculated to take away flow the number t,f those uho were at present disposed to kin with him in %psi:lg the present Bill, at least in the objectionable features already pointed out ;oaf ric, at the same time, the Chancellor of the Exchequ:r de clined giving any assurance that he should not push this part of the measure; on the ct utrary, that he adhered to the principle of it :—he must press his motion. Mr. WHARTON said, the clause now objected to was an original part 01 the present mea4re. Mr. LITTLE TON thinght the measure in many parts objectionable, and that it was inci.mbent en every landed proprietor to stay in town and oppose it. ?sir. WHITBREAD hoped the Right Hon. Gen tleman would consent to the delay proposed. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, he was convinced, had been ignorant of the contents of the clause in question till he had come into the House to-night. lie ob served the Right Hon. Gentleman, ana marked his surprise virile he was reading the clause ; and toped, as Gentlemen were about immediately to leave town, Mr. Alderman ATKINS said, that a large body of respectable Auctioneers of the city of London had waited en Lim in the morning, and gave him to un tkrstand, that if the bill passed the House, their business would be annihilated. the Right Hon. Gentleman would either wididraw the Bill entirely, or would divide it into two, throwing aside that part of it which had beto represented, and he helic•ved justly, would in its eGets be• su destruc tive both to the rt v, i:ue and the landed interest. glr. WHARTON declared that the measure had grown out of applications and suggestions made to the Treasury, and from the momen th it it origin:nee!, he had in contemplation both the hgitimate a:id iti nerant Auctioneers, he never dreamed of availing himself of a popular measure to itvroducc, by way of appendage, one th::t was tiopopular. I\ Ir. FRANK.LAND LEWIS maintained that the Bill intertered roost essentially with tl.e tranver of ianded property, which was already sutfa iewly en cumbered. It became the duty t f the Ilouse to r, move -..utlier than Lreatc impediment of transfer, and nothi; - ,g tended s> much to ret.ird the improvement of laild the difficulty he had mentoined. The Bih would increase to au enormous degree the difficulty seliing lands by auction, and at present there were scarcely any other mode of getting a purchaser. A mhtsure nt a magnitude so serious deserved furtlwr consideration ; Auctions were of public benefit, for through their means people found an outlet to their accumulated quantities of goods which could not be got rid of in th:: common way. The difficulties of the times occasioned these mock Auctions, and with returning prosperity they would die away of their own accord. He concluded by moving, as an Amendment, 66 I'hat the Report be taken into far ther Consideration this day Three Months." Mr. WHARTON expressed his surprize at a mo tion for which he could not at all be prepared. lithe 'Hon. Gentleman objected to one clause, against which alone any objection had been urged, he might propose on Monday to omit the clause ; but to pro pose the entire rejection of the Bill, did really strike him with astonishment. It was indeed, taking him unawares, for had he expected such a motion he should have taken occasion to enter into details, and to urge the various reasons which induced the preparation of this measure. As to the mock auctions and itinerant auctions, the Hop. Gentleman was mistaken in sup poking that they were not productive of great evil. In fact, not only a fraud was committed upon those poor innocent people who were induced to buy at such auctions, but a great encouragement was given to robbery, by the quilk and easy means which these auctions afforded for disposing of stolen goods.' A case had, indeed, come to his knowledge which illus. trated the fact—a Gentleman having been arrested in London, and taken to Witv-street, upon the charge of stealing a case of pistols bound in his lodgings, which pistols were stolen from a Nobleman in town, whose house had been burglariously entered some ' time before. But the Gentleman arrested had, it turned out,' bought the • pistols at one of those mock auctions ai 4,ynn, in Norfolk. Many such sales, how ever, were ; n? doubt, made at suet auctious, and chit Mr. WORTLEY was against the clause objet-1 ted to. Mr. Alderman should vote ftw going into the Committee, though he did not say he should vote tr,r the clause in qu The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER agreed, seeing Coe saise of the House to be against the mea , ure, to pin it r if. Mr. GOOCH retruinstrated against the postpone ment of that part of the Bill which went to suppress stuck ancriotts. By pursuing a middle course, he thought the Bill might be made palatable, and ser viceable to all parties. Mr. WORTLEY suggested that the Bill might be dividwd. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was unwilling to separate the provisions which regard the fair trader from those which concerned thereof:nue. Mr. WOOD teas sorry that the whole object of the Bill should be given up. He had letters from Not tingham, cgmplaining much of rucck Auctions. Sir JAMES SHAW entre...skid his Right Honour able Frinal to reconsider the matter, and not by aban doning the Bill, to subject the tair trader to a conti nuance of those disadial.tages under which he now laboured. The CHANCELLOR of the LXCHEQULR said, after what he had now heard from the House, lie must persevere in his motion for going into a Com mittee on this Bill on Monday. Mr. HUSKISSON was aware, that this was r.ot the first Bill, containing disagreeable clauses, which the House had been forced to adopt, lest they shuuid lose the benefits expected from the general enactments of the Bill. Sir W. CURTIS conceived the. evil ought to be checked by the Bill to be scrclaimant, that he hoped it should not be lost without a vote. He hoped the Right Honourable Gentleman would agree to divide it into two. The question for the House going into a Commit tee on the Bill on Monday, was then put and nega tived without a division ; and the Bill was ordered to be committed this day three months. The Bill is accordingly lost. HELETONE ELECTION BILL. Upon the Motion for the third reading of the Hektaue Elec tion hill, • The Marquis of TAVISTOCK propped a clause for transfer ring to the West Riding of Yurkvhire, :he right which lielitone enjoyed of returning two Member, to that tioube—thus pro curing fota• Representanves for the County 41 York. Atter a few wordi from Mr. Bazars, in opycktitra to the Motion, it vrts negatived wittintiea CATHOLIC QUESTION. Sir J. C. HIPPESLhY :we'd, that there be tact before the 4 41 1 1 " avow tren toe el Sir G .rwrisr, Governo at Canada, beaarag date in Otombee, 1 all, itigh reepect to tb• stare of the Catholic lterigion in that Colony. Ord..rttl accord. ingly. l'he Honourabte Baronet then stated, tbat a Rigt.t Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Grattan) who was not now it. his pis.e, haying given notice of a 11.fotiun early in the next Session. with re.:34 to the Catholic Claims, he thought it proper to announce his in tention of else submitting a Motion next Sessions upon th e ulna subject ; nunely , tor -. the appointment of a Committe e , othiass Notation would be exactly fur thee:me pur ; mst., 314 in the same words in which he had this Sessions felt n duty to autuait hi* object to the consideration or the douse. inenis of the conversation contained i ‘.. , litch the :fon. &Tolman ( pposite ha Fated to the H , .use , he begged leave t.) lie had received a letter of the same deli ha 1, however, some recollection ef the ta•liich gassed between his Right Hon. Chanceljor of the Exc!iequer .iud hi mse Gentlemen, and that conference had lef on his mia.,l something different from to'SLave made on theirs. He d kg-hether• this difference might not arise Fhiival politeness of these Gentlemen's rm bad softened their appearance of hostilit ure, and caused him to meet them wi ike correspondent affability. Certain i ver, they, according to his recollecti eir satisfaction— [Mr. WIIITBREA cross the table, 66 Willi year civility, pet ith the Bill."J No, he understood the ..ed Kith the bill ; he had no rememb •xpression concerning making an exper easure. It nas nonsense as applied -ontemplation, and could never have bt xcept in a vague anZ uncertain mans ittle hesitations which sometimes arose ii:n. The Bill was brought in for th • teting an acknowledged evil, and he li carried into effect with some inconsic cation:. Mr. W. SMITH said, he apprehen tan. Gentleman who spoke last had 'erinciple of the measure entirely. It app 11,,t the case which he hid mentioned, .f an estate for eight thousand pounds very different construction ; for in al, lie estate w, uld be purchased at the or more than what h.:cl been contempk undreds of pounds, by which means ••ould gain considerably. A Gentlen .f his, had idoiined him, that an exp ar to that at present under considerate ntroduced in France. .Fortnutly it a] he rate of auction-duty in that country alf per cent. but the new measure inct '.er cent. which banished auctions wholl -Is,'Bourdeaux, and other ',Lees, and o mischievbus on the auctions at Paris, ernment very ri.cently taking into con mat &was of revenue, an 4 ftiog tt . _ CAPTAIN DACREL Lord COCHRANE presented a retiti'm from Captain Dales, stating that l;e had inventua a mode of rendering wood fit for the use of the N ivy w.thottt the esdal process ; and praying that the utility of hid invention might be inquired into. The Petition was brought up ; was ordered to lie on the table; and Lord COCHRANE gave notice that he should, on Monday, submit to the consideration of the Housq a Resolution on the subject of the Naval Service. Mr. ROSE begge.l that the Noble Lord would be more spebific as to the nature of his m ,, tion. Lord COCHRANE said, his Resolution shoult/ go partly to the limitation of service. and partly te the Temuueration for lung services. FINA N4AS It V4OLUTIONS. On the motion of Mr. TisttNav, after a few wordy from the CIIANCELLOR of the Exenctn::. - At and :Ir. FfusiusoN, the debate on the llesointioro was tbsidertood to have been gone into trofvrms, and the further debate was postpon..d till Thin slay neat. EAST-1 NDI A SILL._ The House having gone into a Committee on chi. Bill, Lord CASTLEREAGH said, they had slots- come, to the Appropriation Clause, as it was called, and us the contrind given over the Company's Affairs at home and abroad, as to which he perceived a misru. prehension prevailed. By the intioductiun of twf; claim's, however, which he bad now to propose, he. hoped the objections on the part of the Company would ba done away, and also that a better ono would be drawn between its territorial and- corn ' me, cial transactions, by wlech they woold be incl..: clearly defined, and disiinite the one front the other. —One misconception wlfch,prevaited was tine, that as now, for the first time. a controul over this fund was given to the India Board, it was wished to t, , ke the appropriation of the one million out of the hands of the Company.— This, however, was niciely imaginary. The country had so yleat a re.. venue here at stake, that there could be no ft ar of their making any objection to the most advantageous arrangements which tfe Company night have to prrpi,se. To do away any doubts, however, on this ' selject, he had two clauses to prop.,se, by the first of which it should he provided, that such sums as the Company; in cne year, paid out of their commercial funds hoe for political purposes, should, in the tol -I,wing year, be drawn out of the political fund iit India, and applied to commercial purposes. other clause v.oold go to this, that the political ex. pences of India not fall a hordea en ihe com mercial in E;ircre till tl , e ,Ivid‘nd was in the fits: place ;411 , W C . c.: pi-„videel Mr, and then thar. the funds in k.t.p.o2e she old LI into or.- ecetinion miss. Thus as v.p i sinunity would be affoteled of timing whether the Company traded to loss or profit. It had been said. the Company shou.d have a goa l rantee against 1-ss,---he Casderesigh) was agaiilst mat, it welt to pit the Company in a si tuation not Lousittent with their conuneici,l ci,arac ter.—Their d vidend be:ng St*Teti aguinst tlf. poli tical trustsactions in vat was all the gull antee to which they v.-efe enti.leo.. Tits was the ioneral outline of the clauses should up, at,d he should move, in the course ut the evening, that they be printed. Mr. TIERNEY had one question to ask, supposing alter payment et the dividend, the commercial pro, tits should not be sufficient to dischwge the territi.rial engagements, from what fund were sut.li engagement.. to be paid Loud CASTLEREAGH said, the funds in India would be sufficient to discharge the eugagements there. He piestnnetl the Company would not hp in. cloud to hold out that diet.: were nut funds in India sufficient to pay the debts in India. Mr. R. smini was afraid that this fund might be absorbed by wars in India. Mr. ROBINSON objected to the commercial tuna being subject to the appropriation by the Board of` Controul, being in that manner liable to be applied to the payment of territorial engagemeots. Lord CASTLEREAGH rep.ieu, that he did not think the Hon. Member had argued the question very solidly, for it was one of equity, as to the taking the. whole of the funds, and not founded upon a distinc tion of territorial and commtrci.tl fund. Mr. TIERNEY supported the views of the Hen. Member (Mr. Robinson.) 1-ye was not prepared to suggest what kind of remedy the case required, but be was decidedly of opinion :hat some remedy ought to be provided. He wished that the Company should be secured from the necessity of occasional applica tions to Parlidnent for relict ; and he thought chat their surplus revenue should be appropriated in such a way as to secure the divi,:eild to the Bond-holder and t'roprictor, and to enable them (the Conipauy) to meet their tetritorial engagenients by sur e ilying the deficit of one yi.Ar irom the excess of an adt r. Mr. C. GRANT, sat. argued on the same side. L. rd CAS TLEREAGH denied that the coin meicial profits of the Company were to be applied solely to transactions in which their interest was con c.-riled, and mitt tided, that die public had an interest neared by the boon of the China trade panted t;) the Company, in the protits ot that trade. now prisht) were not to be given the Company as com mercial profits, but were reserved as applicable to general purposes of the Government of India, and in the management of which Government And the pub. lic had an undoubted interest. Mr. TIERNEY wished to obtain from the Nubia Lord a distinct avowal ot what was to be the appio. priation 01 the Company's surplus revenue. Lord CASTLEREAGH said it was not judi cious in the Company to ciaim aid tor A case w 1 1 ,4/ never had been exemplified, viz. when .he Chula and India Trade sh,.ui..l not produce d st.fficiency . to pay the dividend. Thu China Tr. de. to ~c ul.l not with proprieti be termed the property of the C m p .ny. The Company would :int, o) the clause a 5 tt stood, be burdened by the bills of exchange. TLEOLX said, the eutagay culy clued Ik• i