Star. — London, England, 1830-12-09 00:00:00

r SECOND EDITION. HOUSE OF LORDS—TuIa DAY. Petitions against slavery were presented by Earl ROSEBERRY. The Consolidated Fund Bill was read a second time. Lord TEYNHAM presented a petition for a more equitable distil. 1 bution of the Parliamentary grant for education in Ireland. Also a petition from the merchants and others of Middlesex, praying for a Parliamentary grant, to be applied for the purposes of cultivating waste land in Middlesex and Surrey. I Lord WHARNCLIFFE presented a petition from Kent, complain ing of distress, and praying for parliamentary reform. The Marquis of BUTE presented various petitions against slavery. STATE OF ?lig COUSTItY. Lord WYNFORD, in pursuance of the notice he had given on the lltate of the country, observed, that he mated any remarks he had to make would tend to allay the existing alarm, rather than to increase it. He was persuaded that the present distress was very general; still the people ought not to be led to expect that Parliament wonld COMIC forward with pecuniary relief. The noble and learned lord then referred to a paper, which stated the number of persons who had emigrated to Africa and other places from England in 1826, to be about 200 ; but in the present year that number had been increased to upwards of 2,000, an incontestible proof of increasing distress among the labour ing and .agriculutural classes, and of the bad administration of the Poor Laws. Another proof of the alarming state of the country was to be found in the fact of the:capitalist possessing his money locked up in his strong box, instead of applying it to the traffic of :the country or state. This was a question which could not be touched by ithe Committee of their Lordships on the Poor Laws : he was persuaded that distress did exist in this country to its present extent, and be should like to have a public enquiry made into that distress, because a most respectable and large body of his Majesty's subjects, he meant the farmers, had been most vilely alum. Mated. The late Lord Liverpool attributed the distress In his time, for distress did then exist, though not to the same extent as now, to ex. coulee production, a cause that could not now be urged ; he begged to say that he was no enemy to machinery, or to any other improvement la the arts ; but if machinery tended to glut the market with production, he did not hesitate to give it his condemnation, satisfied that the poor man and the artisan were as much entitled to a protection of their pro. perty as their rich neighbours. HOUSE OF COMMONS.—Tuts DAT. Mr.PLANTA moved fora new Writ for St. Oamains, in the room of Sir H. Hanlinge, who has accepted the Chiltern Hundreds.--Ordered. Mr. O'CONNELL presented a petition from a Chelsea pensioner, complaining of a deduction from his pension of 5 per eon; and from a Freeman of amuse', complaining that his Freedom had been refused; sho, a petition from St. Michael's, for a Reform in Parliament. He trusted that no effort would be made to delude the people on this subject. The Marquis of BLANDFORD trusted that no delay would take place: in granting the reform. The delay of a single day was dan. runts. Mr. O'CONNELL then presented a petition from Ayrshire for re. form, and said that if ministers made no declaration on the subject be. fore Christmas, he would give notice of a motion. Those who resisted rote by ballot must intend, that some ministers balance should prevail over Sir IL WILSON replied with indignation to this imputations those who resisted vote by ballot were as honest as the bon. member. He re. sisted vote by ballot from the sincerest conviction; he considered it no. favourable to purity of election. His was the opinion of the most Ida.* core and honest man in North America. He should resist it and do his duty in spite of the dictation of the hon. member. Sir 3. MACINTOSH took the oaths and his seat. Mr. RUTHVEN said, he was storey to see the Hon. Member (llir R. W.) who had so much dilleulty to make up his mind on the Civil List, make up his mind so decidedly against the vote by ballot. He considered the only security to be a vote by ballot." Mr. PRICE considered that Parllametttary Reform had been too long delayed. Mr. O'CONNELL said that the Gallant General had shown equal anger and lack of argument. He would not interfere with his boost of patriotism►. but leave him to be his own trumpeter. He then presented petitions from the Association Meeting at the Rotunda, and from the Carpenters and Bookbinders of Dublin, for the repeal of the Union and eight similar petitions from parishes in Ireland, for the extension of the Galway franchise. Mr. CALCRAFT presented the Report of the Cork Election Com mittee. It stated that D. Callaghan, Esq. the sitting Member had been duly elected. Mr. O'GORMAN MAHON presented a petition from the County of Clare, for the repeal of the Union. He then threw himself upon the indulgence of the House, to defend himself from an extensive system of attack on members, by secret letters and otherwise, which in this ease would be brought home to a member of the House by evidence at the bar. He disliked 'secret insinuations and clandestine impeachments. It had been imputed to him,that be was influenced by the Treasury. He totally denied the charge of deliberate falsehood that bad also been imputed to him. lie also, however, maintained that the Duke of Wellington had tared the country from the evils that bad threatened Ireland. He could not but compliment the sight boo. gentleman for having sacrificed the glory of being the Church ascendancy idol to a measure which he deemed essential to his country's welfare. As to the charge against himself it had oc curred on the night of the debate on the Civil List. At nine o'clock he went to dinner, and was accidentally shut out, thought; absent only forty minutes. SPIRIT OF THE JOURNALS. exaoirict.E.—The procession of the trades yesterday through the metropolis was alluded to by the Duke of Wellington, who said that the practice of processions with Gap, Ike. if not contrary to law, was most dangerous. His Grass is quick in descrying danger. The incon venience of processions in a trading city is mote obvious than their dan ger ; though processions through the streets of particular trades, benefit societies, &c. with gags, are common enough. As far, however, as interruption of the highways Is conmen4 diem is ten times more, every day in the year, from large carts loading and un- , loading in the day time in the most frequented thoroughfares...l Were there anything like good order in this metropolis, all these things would be limited to particular hours in the morning, or to night. Every day whole lines of carts or carriages block up the way for hours, till some grocer or ocher tradesman has disposed of the contents of a cart, which remains opposite his door. Lord Melbourne had not been aware till the placards were posted up calling on the trades to proceed to his Majesty, that more was intended than a deputation; and upon consult. ing with the authorities and police, they all recommended the allowing the procession, for which they would be responsible. The Lord Chan. cello, declared in favour of the legality of it. Tiates.—We are haters of all monopolies, and among others of a monopoly of the elective franchise, by such a (miscalled) Reform of Parliament as would introduce into the constituent body, by means of universal suffrage, the masa, and with the mass the dregs, of the exist. ing population. That species of Reform of Parliament would be a monopoly of power, and, consequently, of every thing to the appro priation of which unreflecting power could be rendered applicable, by the numerical majority of the people—in other words, by the mob. We are staunch friends to a broad and fundamental reform; and if enemies to uni venal suffrage, or to the establishment of a low qualification for the greet mass of elector's it is because such a principle would be, in effect, a saw routing of the representative system, by the virtaal exclusion of all influence derived from property, and an absolute surrender of the can rnonwealth to a single c.kast class moved to frequent wafers against every other, by the extremes of destitution and desperation acting upon inc ura bl e ignorance, prejudice, and distrust. Ls far the admission of mere " numbers" into die state, set gushiest or distin guished by any further claims, the conedtudea of exhibits no such tendency. The electors fee towns whew forms a qualification, have a stake in the country des MEI end that evidence of honest and reputable coniact, liedi of which constitute their property, and without which they amid not leave obtained the freedom or their r= r r y e rade% IR bees topewit ted earn the wages of art and . Ivan the c t=e s tb lowest, meanest, and mat worthies el shown, Ms WO reat in the borough for which he Taos, them. elieperisd dsdlia l er ci ;t ie leb he has been eousssisd with ad der sot ismorrime dr • naked numbers. ifs class of elates, be deeirek less spa el MT' lion than a lap majority of those who now mess that Ostler, the standard of qualification ought to be raised, and not reduced. 11r. Fos and Mr. (now Earl) Grey were both for that description of reform ; but then property, no matter under what name, mast be admitted. If the representation is no longer to be a shadow and mockery, but a substan tial power and safeguard for the state, the close baronies, even of less than 500 voters, must at ones be ousted from their iniquitous, however loog.exercised usurpation. -- Temes.—lf by yielding to the dictation of the rioters the magis trates could permanently better their condition, we might forget the feeliugs of alarm from which they acted, and give them credit for a laudable as well as an easy receipt foe terminating outrage and restoring tranquillity. But though their motives may be laudable, their power is limited. They may order the farmer to pay a certain rate of wages to labourers when be employs them, but can they likewise order him to employ them ? If they cannot, what is gained for those labourers whose services are rejected altogether, but total deprivation of employ. meet ? and if they can, what becomes of the right of the fanner ? What , becomes even of the rights of the other classes of the community ? foe the same authority which would put a labourer, for whom he has no use, into a farmer's barn or field, would put a supernumerary cook into a gentleman's kitchen, or a compositor into our office. All that the magistrates an legally do is to enforce the laws for relieving the pauper labourer, without interfering with the contracts which regulate the price of labour. To. just remuneration of labour must depend on the sh&S con science and honour of the em yen , and on the terror which the op. pressed—by a law of astute. h not of the land....nre able to in. ilia on their oppressors. ly have the poor been treated, and their wrongs ought to be redressed ; but the law has not invested loud magistrates with any power to command such redress. Cnaoxict.x..—We call the attention of our readers to an excellent Circular, in another column, from Lord Melbourne, on the subject of the recent conduct of the Justices of Peace. The Magistrates have been so long accustomed to consider themselves irresponsible for the exercise of their powers, that we have no doubt they will be not a little astonished when they find that at length censure has overtaken them. I am commanded by his Majesty to lose no time in acquainting you, that it has been observed with great regret that the:Justices of Peace and others have in many instances, un der the influence of threats and intimidation, and the apprehension of violence and outrage, advised the establishment of an uniform rate of wages to be paid for labour in their respective neighbourhoods." Why, they have been in the practice of advising an uniform rate of wages for many a year. The practice is so inveterate, that we have awn a table which must have been drawn up by certain Blegistretes in Oxfordshire, at the very time his Lordship was drawing up this letter.— We see in this censure the harbinger. of a new state of things. Sir It. Peel would have it that the poor had been oppressed, but that the upper I classes were not to blame. What cant I They are to blame—they have long been to blame. We are all now reaping the fruits of a policy as narrow as it was unjust. But how an we punish poor infa tuated wretches for violating the law in breaking machines, and compelling mastas to advance wages, when :Magis trates—the only authorities known to them—sign declare. dons, recommending the breaking of machines, and the raising of wages l Is notithis teaching the people that justice is on their side ? Well Is it said in the ciradar, ''that these machines are as much en. tided to the protection of the law as any other description of property, and that the course which has been taken of prescribing or recommend ing the discontinuance of them, is, in fact, to connive at, or rather to assist in, the establishment of a tyranny of the most oppressive charac ter." The rights at property must be upheld. A machine is property —labour is property—the business of the Justice of Peace is to respect property, and not to destroy it. The law never contemplated that he should make the contract between the farmer and the labourer. This is an usurpation, a dangerous usurpation, which no length of time can consecrate. HOME OFFICE. The following very proper and well-tinted notification has just been Issued from the Home Seaetary's Office : (taacutaa.) tehall, Bth Dee. . fita—l am commandpl by his Illa*ty to ol lose no time in a•ft HMO ualne ing yea that it has been observed WA peat wpm that the Juadm of Pews end others have in many lestemem, wader the influence of threats and intimidation, and the epiphanies el Odom anti outrage, ad. vied the establishment of an unite. Med wools to be paid for labour in their respecSve asigbabadmsdk awl have abe, boo the some mo. tires, in many inalalllMl sseemimmdal the dlsiwedasomee of the em. ployment of maeldnes used he thrashing out eau, and for other Pu =l and experience concur in proving that a compliance with de mands so unreasonable in themselves, and urged in such a manner, can only lead, and probably within a very short period of time, to the most disastrous results ; and that the tranquillity which is obtained by con cessions grounded upon principles so maxims is likely to be of very transient duration. The Austin* of Peace must be aware that thq me invested with no general legal authority to settle the amount of the wages of labour ; and any interference in such a matter can only have the effect of exciting expectations which must be disappointed, and of ultimately producing, in an aggravated degree, a renewed spirit of discontent and insubi nation. Upon the second point it is only necessary to observe, that these ma. chines are as much entitled to the protection of the law as any other de. Seri of property, and that the course which has been aka of pre. scribing or recommending the discontinuance of them is. in fact, to eon. nive at, or rather to assist in the establishment of a tyranny of the most oppressive character. His Majesty's Government are fully sensible that allowance is to be made for the new and difficult circumstances in which Magistrates have been placed, by the recent disturbances which have occurred in various parts of the kingdom; but under no difficulty, nor in any extremity, ought principles so contrary to the general interests of the community, and ao injurious more especially to the welfare of those who have been deluded into the commission of these offences, to Isp recognised, still less to be sanctioned by persons in authority, whose duty it is at all hazards to maintain the authority of the law, and to secure the liberty of the subject. His Majesty's Government feel deeply for the sufferings and priva. dons which have of late years pressed, and still continue to press se. verely, upon the labouring classes of e community. They are anx. lolls to odor, as speedily as possible, every practicable and reseenable measure for their alleviation ; but th ey are aleoentirely convinced that these sufferings will only be increased and pretreated by a course of concession to viuknce and tumult. It is my duty, therefore, to recommend in the strongest manner, that, for the Atone, all Justices of the Peace and ether Magistrates will oppose • Ann resistance to all demands of the nature above de scribed, more especially when accompanied with violence and menace; and th at they will deem it their duty to maintain and uphold the rights of propel/ of every description against violence and aggression. have the honour to be, Sir, your obedient servant, ELBOURN THE HOY.' 71ITY. Yesterday, a deputation of the Fellows of this Society, pursuant to a resolution passed at the anniversary meeting, waited on his Royal High. mess the Duke ot Sussex, at Kensington Palace, and pro forma comm. nieated to his Royal Highness that be had beam elected President of the Society, vice Davies Gilbert, Esq., M. P. His Royal Highness re. calved the Fellows composing t he deputation with that courtesy for which he is so well known, shaking them cordially by the hand. His Royal Highness assured the deputation that no exertions on his part I should be wanting to promote the interests of the Society—end especially to heal those &Terence* in the Institutes which So Welt time past bad formed such a ftultful topic for the gossip of the town. The deputation took leave of his Royal Highness much pleased with their courteous recepdoo. MR. ST. Joint LONG.-3U witnesses against this in dividual went before the Middlesex Grand Jury this morn ing, with a bill charging him with the manslaughter of Mrs. Lloyd, and which was returned by the Grand Jury into Court shortly after twelve o'clock a true bill. The indictment is similar to that preferred in the case of Miss Caitlin, and charges him with having produced a mortifi cation of the breast, of which the deceased died, by rub ing, or causing to be rubbed thereupon, a certain perni cious preparation, the secret of which was known only to himself. Mr. St. John Long has not yet surrendered himself, but there appears every reason to believe he in tends doing so, as, besides aubpcenaing witnesses, be has retained Messrs. Adolphus, Clarkson, and Phillips, to con duct his defence. Mr. Alley is employed for the prose cution. A Proclamation was this morning affixed in the Hall of the Middlesex Session* House, calling upon the out pensioners of Greenwich Hospital to bold themselves in readiness to be sworn in as special constables, and to act under the directions of the magistrates of the districts wherein they reside. The number of efficient men com prised within this body is very great ; and as the present is about the time when they will have se produce their testimonials at the Excise•otbco of the district wherein they reside, previous to receiving their quarter's pewit*, the swearing in of ends as may be selected will be ac complished with great sees. FANATIC. The unhappy fanatic who was arrested yesterday near the entrance to the House of Lords, immediately he was seised by the police-cam thrust the muzzle of his pistol in his right cheek and attempted to dis charge it, but it only dashed in tbs pan. It was first intended to bring him to the bar of that house, but under all the circumstances of the rase, the Black Rod, Sir Thomas Tyrwhiu, consigned him to the civilpower, and be remained for a long time handcuffed in a room at the Home Mice. He will be examined at Bow.street, on Friday, at 12 o'clock. He had been observed about the entrance of the Lords from Friday last to the time of his arras*. He is an athletic powerful man with prominent and strongly marked features, a weather-beaten face, ;ad an expression heavy and morose. By k ind ness of manner, bs was induced to abandon his taciturnity, and a cautious, indirect mode of tesestioning,, elicited a good many facts. He stated that he was a native of Cork, and had from his infancy studied the miracles of the Old Testament, and every part of it where the Lord enjoined the slaughter of mankind for their wickedness. He himself was deeply imprinted with the sinfulness of the world, and the Lord had appeared to him in many visions, enjoining him to preach repentance, and to tell all men that the world was coming to ha end. When he attempted this, people either laughed at him or put him into prison, as had been the case in America t and because be bad ceased to preach righteousness, the Loan had persecuted him night and day. He was now weary of life, and by attempting to kill some great man, he should teach the world the reality of his mission, and for the sake of which he was content to die. He said he had sailed in a privateer for Baltimore and Charles ton, but that the LORD had stopped the vessel ; and when he told the Captain of this, be laughed at him ; but the LORD immediately wrought a miracle, by changing the wind and obliging the Captain to put back. He had seen a roan stand in the sun, " which had never been seen before since the creation ; " and the Lord 1 having told him that he would kill for him all his enemies, the vision proved true; for, when he returned to Cork, he found that, in his ab sence, nine of th ose who had dispossessed him of his property on the ground of his being insane, including the attorney, had died. And whilst he was at Cork, the Lord produced an earthquake. The unhappy man's ideas were confined to such subjects. He had no particular wish, he said, to kill the Duke of Wellington, but he main tained that all the miseries of the poor. the crimes of war, and panicu o lady the $O.OOO souls killed at Waterloo, were ow ing to he vices of the great people, who were selfish, roguish, and oppressi ve , and that they ought to be killed; and by his killing some them the world would be reformed, and then come to an end. There was evidently some imposition in his histories of himself. When questioned upon the nature of Charleston harbour, his answers evinced his ignorance of the localities of the place: and, moreover, he used several terms respecting his being on ship-board, totally incon sistent with nautical phraseology : such as putting a ship about at an chor. It appears that he had been confined as a lunatic at Baltimore. Although his notions of killing great men were very extensive, he was evidently bent upon one individual, and seemed sullen and distressed when the subject was alluded to. ADDITIONAL PARTICULARS. The person who first laid hold of the unfortunate man was Mr. Gil bert, one of the Marshals of the House of lArde b at whom he snapped the pistol, but, fortunately, it only flashed in the pan. Another of the persons in attendance then rushed heward to secure him, when be cocked another pistol, and snapped it at that individual also; but this pistol, like the first, fortunatelyT missed fire. The prisoner was then sent in custody to the , and a messenger was immediately despatch. ed for Sir R. Birnie, at Bow-street, before whom the prisoner underwent a very long examination, when it appeared that the unfortunate man had been in town only eight days, and that he had been, until latel , the mate of a ship trading between Liverpool and Ayr, in S His manner was confused and incoherent, as will appear from the preceding account, and there was some difficulty experienced by the Magistrate, and those who assisted in the examination, to put the evidence in form. The knife which the prisoner had concealed on his person was described as a butcher's knife, and the maker of it has been discovered, and will attend at Bow-street on Friday to prove that the prisoner purchased it from him. As soon as be was liberated from the custody of the officers of the House of Lords, he was handed over to Sir Richard Birnie, who immediately consigned him to the charge of Ruthven and Ellis, two of the principal Bow-street officers, by whom he was placed in a coach and sent in custody to the House of Correction, Coldhath-fields, from whence, as stated above, he will be brought to Bow-street on Friday next, to undergo another examination. He had been seen about the entrance to the House of Lords for some days previous, and be was so anxious in his inquiries as to the carriage, of the noble lords, and particularly as to which was the Duke of Wellington's, that on Tuesday night the whose duty it is to call the carriages immediately upon the braking up of the House, - omitted, from prudential motives, see. ing the prisoner present, to call out the names of the noble owners. IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS. Dsc. 8. N ZOlO SLAV M. _ Petitions for the abollties;oiaa;ery -- in the British Colonies were p served by Lord Wharndiffe, from Barnsley, in the county of York ; FLord King, from Wimborne, in the county of Dorset; sod by Lord rnham, from Stockwell, in the county of Surrey—which were laid on the table. IMPEAL Or TUB ustiow. The Marquis of OKMONDE presented a petition from Kilkenny, praying for the rural of the Union. He did not concur in the semi meets of the petitioners, but had, nevertheless, thought it his duty to present the petition. Viscount CLIFDEN was convinced that to grant the prayer of this petition would be productive of ruin. The agitation of the question of a repeal of the union was utterly and totally mischievous ; sad if any man desired the subversion of the empire, be could take as more et ' fectual means of accomplishing his purpose. He thought it right to speak clearly and distinctly upon this subject, for it was very desirable that the ignorant persons who were deluded with respect to it, should be convinced of the utter impracticability of the object they were induced to wow. He believed nmety.nine out of every hundred of the persons of property and educatienlin Ireland whether Catholics or Protestents, were avers, to the repeal ; and he had some opportunities of judging of this, for he bad passed thirty-nine out of the last forty summers partly in Ireland, sad two.thirds of his own property were situated In that country. There were two things which he held to be politically Imre. sible—one was a radical refocus upon the principle of annual Parlia ments and universal suffrage, and the other was the repeal of the union with Ireland. No man was, however, more friendly to moderate reform than himself. STAMPS ON PERIODICAL PURLICATIONS. - - - Lord KING piesiniitiapeWtiocirorntii;OperatWesof Blackburn, In the county of Lancaster, for the repeal of the stamp duty on News papers and other periodical publications. There was one = in this petition, which, at the present moment, the noble lord culiarly wot th y of attention. The petitioners expressed their belief LI the more general and extensive diffusion of these publications which would result from the measure they recommended, would be the most effectual means of dispelling the ignorance of the workmen, and of re moving their objections to theemployment of machinery. The above petitions were severally ordered to lie upon the table. LORD CHANCRLYOR 01 IRILASD. Lord.FARNHAM said that if the noble earl at the ,head of his majesty's government had been in his place either yesterday or the day betore, be should have taken the opportunity of adverting to a subject of Tay considerable importance--of so much impurtance that be could no longer, consistently with his duty, refrain from offering some ob servations respecting it. He begged, however, that it might not be cos. aired that the remarks he felt himself coaled upon to make on the question he should ask upon the subject, proceeded from any feeling of hostility to the present government. He was one of those who thought that were the administration of justice completely separated from all political considerations it would be so muck the better for the country, and be lamented that the situation of the Noble and Learned Lied on the Woolsack even, should remain a pee. lament exception in practice to a principle which all men admitted to be most salutary and advantageous. But if it was necasary that the Seals of England should be held by a Callow Minister, in coo sequence of the important political duties which the Load Chancellor bad to discharge, sure be was that no necessity existed for the Seals of Ireland being in the possession of • person politically attached to the administration of the day. He had been led to these observations by the current report that it was the intention of his Majaty's tiovernment to withdraw Sir Anthony Hart from the care of Lord Chancellor for Ireland, in older to make room for a paean for whom every one bad ' the highest respect, Lord Plunket. He was in hopes that in the present situation of the country his Majesty's Uovernment would have been dis posed to pay the greatest attention to ecooomy, and his great objection te the ent to which he bad alluded, was that it saddled the country wit an unnecessary pension of four thousand pounds a of pen sions So soon as this arrauganeat should be completed, the number payable to retired Chance ll ors would be no less than six ; si s ro akm pe tr ou r Imunsett mote r ere stoft v t• the ery soon to po t tl e dcal world he for sbould toot England and another for Ireland. If this should go on, it would soon become swam for the Lesbian to act upon the principle se usefully le with more than a certain number of *attires at the same thawmust be compelled, he teased, as long is romance of thin Inalmeedve analogy, to provide that. for the future, raked Chan. came eheeld not take the p Won until some of the antecedent dew agas bad died or (Lighter yrbe resent Mate of the country afforded the t motives to avoid every needless charge or incrust lemma. , with respect to the Isernal gentleman who at resent . held the somas d Inland, he bed not t h e Maim of kis roma se lisistanes, bit he isdmeSeoll that be °indicted she business of his emit Is a eater highly Washita so the senstry, and which pee ens i the lobbed. so the bas . He had se doubt, indeed, that If the altion.l den is insides cholerbe then& isssieFry, tips Forted siamoor of the bend gentleness would also aid eadsfeedes to the country. In this ease it was probable that his Majesty's Govern went would think it neceseary, at the same time, to adopt some mere economical arrangement than the present and if any thing of this nature was in contemplation, he should be glad to receise inform'. thin upon it, and this was one of his objects in noticing the : übj-et. The circumstances and temper of the country, required, be must re peat, on the pan of Government, the utmost attet.tion to econinny in every department of the public service. The LORD CHANCELLOR said that nothing could be more fair than the question of the Noble Lord, and he only regretted that he had put it at a time when the most minute and clear informatioo could not be obtained, both on account of the absence of his Noble Friend, to whom any statement, maid it be made at all on the economical part lof the subject, peculiarly belonged, and because. with reference to the present situation of the meawilmnint; the question, at the present mo ment, was premature. The Noble Lord said ;hat he hoped some economical arrangement would be attempted ; if so, it was obvi ously impossible that such amingemeuts could yet be in a state so ad vanced as to admit of his making any communication upon the subject. The noble lord had also adverted more distinctly to a reported anarge ment respecting the Lord Chancellor of Ireland, and had put a question as to the swum) , of that report. It would be felt by their lordship. that It was impossible for a person in his situation distinctly to answer the question of the noble lord. Whether the principle which required the separation of the judicial and political character was deviated from widely in the single instance of the seals was a question of no less diffi culty than importance. The first impression of all would be, that the answer to this question would be is the negative; and all would,he might almost say instinctively, desire to see this anomaly removed. But the person holding the seals filled an office so entirely peculiar,and had many various functions to fulfil, several of which were of a nature exclusisely political, as not to render the question by any means so clear as might at first sight be imagined. But this was not a question which they could now discuss with advantage. It involved the greatest and most im t changes—the adoption of a course never yet known at any in the history of this country since the o ffi ce of Lord Chancellor ad existed, and called upon them to put one great branch of the civil eritowitan justice of the country upon a footing very different from that on which it had stood in all preceding times. This was, he said, the great ques tion, and one very tit for discussion in that House; and on a proper oc casion, and after r'ue notice, he should not be found backward to cuter upon the discussion with that deliberation and solemnity which the im portance of the subject required. But then the noble bad said,why not in Ireland separate the political character from the office of Lord Chancellor ? To this he must give a similar answer. He had had a long experience in political life, and had witnessed many changes of Ad ministration, and he never knew a single instance in which a change of Ministers was not followed by a change in the person filling the office of Lord Chancellor of Ireland. In 1801, when Lord &aloud' came into office, Lord Redesdale went to Ireland. In the next change which took place, the same rule was followed in Ireland as in England, for the Irish Chancellor remained, and in England land Eldon did not go out of office. But in 1006, after the death of Mr. Pitt, Lord Redesdale came back. and Mr. Ponaonby obtained the Irish Seals. Then in the year 1807, on the formation of the Duke of Portland's Administration, Lord Manners was appointed, and remained in °Moe during the Administration of Mr. Per cival and that of Lad Liverpool, which were in effect con tinuations of the same Ministry which entered office with the Duke of Portland. When Lord Liverpool ceased to be minister, then his noble friend, Lord Lyndhurst, became Chancellor of England: and in a short time afterwards, as short as the completion of the arrange ment admitted, Lord Manners was withdrawn from Ireland, and Sr:. Anthony Hart appointed in his place. All these changes took place at the same time in England and Ireland, and he could not say that any sufficient ground had been alleged why a distinction should be made upon the present occasion. To divest the Lord Chancellor of his political character, so as to render his tenure of office independent of political movements, would he a change of Ea s t importance and influence in Ragland. In Ireland also it would although not i rest. The noble lord must ad. mit that change , no charge again st the Government that it did and deviate from the course which been thought right, and utii formli pursued by all preceding Governments. Ile (the Lord Chan. cellar felt they could not be charged with any impropriety, because they id not deviate in an unusual, not to say unprecedented manner, from the established practice. He (the noble lord) asked whether the government had come to any final decision upon the subs. This question he could answer decidedly in the negative. When he was asked whether the government had such a change in contemplation, he felt that he should ill discharge his duty if he did not refuse to answer.— (Hear, bear.) lie was bound not to say what was in the contem plation of Ministers until some decision had been adopted, That he leaned to the change It was not necessary for him to say, after the observations he had already made. (Hear, hear.) Then with respect to the argument of economy, and the allusion to the limitation of the jointure of widows in well.regulated private establishments.— This cave was not in point • for there was no instance in which the re. tiring pension had not been granted to Chancellors. To depart from this practice might be a change for the better, but still it would be a great change. But be would say this mach, that if such a change as that to which the question of the noble lord referred were to take place— and he repeated that nothing was yet decided on the subject—it would be found that the arrangement had not been made without a due regard to economy. lie pledged himself that whenever the arrangement should be laid before their lordships, it would be found that economy had been regarded, and be should bemuch aurirised if their lordships did not find that the arrangement was such as would wove them to have consulted the distressed state of the country as far as so minute an affair could af. feet the situation of the country t and he admitted that every farthing of the public money was of importance. He had detained their lord ships longer than he intended, and should only say, in conclusion, that in this and every other screw rat they should have the greatest regard to econonsy. The conversation then dropped. SUPTOSID 41111141/SIX.m-PIOCIISSION OF TEI ?RAMIS SOCJSTIES. Viscount MELBOURNE said that their lordships were probably awarethat there was now in the custody of the officer of the house a person charged with a grievous offence. He apprehended that, with out any argument, their lordships would agree with him that the proper comae for them to pursue was, to order him to be delivered up to the =civil authorities. Ile should, therefore without further *beer move that James Pak, now in the custody of the officers of the house, be delivered over to the civil authorities, to be dealt with in due course of law. The Duke of WELLINGTON said that he had heard of something which was of much greater importance than the occurrence which se maimed the motion of the noble lord. He understood that an address had that day been presented to his majesty In by the delegates of a tumultuous assemblage, which had p to the palace in pro. cession, with flap, banners, and music. The admission of any portion of an illegal assembly to the person of his majesty was a dangerous no velty, upon which their lordships would be more anxious for explanation than on the subject of the noble lord's motion, as it was of infinitely greater importance. Viscount MELBOURNE said it might perhaps be satisfactory to their lordships that be should state the whole course of moendirris which hail led to the transaction to which the noble duke alluded. The day after he had received the seals of his office he bad been waited on by a deputation of the Trades Societies, who expressed their anxiety, in consequence of the severe disappointment they had experienced in the postponement of his Majesty's visit to the City, to be permitted to pre sent an address to his Majesty in person, to show their loyalty to the King and their attachment to the Constitution. Seeing no objection to the presentation of an address by these three persons in tee usual way at the Levee, be took his Majesty's pleasure on the subject, and he agreed to receive them. It was distinctly understood, that the Addicts was to be presented by three persons only, and in the usual manner. Yesterday be was greatly surprised to find, from a placard which was posted about the town, that the different Trade Societies intended to meet and proceed in a body to St. James's. He made inquiry about it, and he learned that such was the determination which bad been adopted. He immediately consulted with those who bad the immediate charge of the public peace, the Magistrates and the heads of Police, sad they all agreed that in their circumstances it sae better to let the procession proceed without interruption. The heads of the Police said that if no intenuptiun were attempted to the proceed ings they would be answerable for the public peace. In these circum stances he thought it would be better that the should be per • omitted to take their course. The procession = e ll: plate, and he was happy to say that he had every reason to believe that no interrup tion to the public peace bad occurred. If any further explanstion sere required, he should be happy to afford it. The LORD CHANCELLOR admitted that the assemblage of great number of persons to proceed with an address to his Itlaj..iy, was a proceeding which ought not to he encouraged, and it was to i.e lamented that this 'node of displaying their loyalty should hove struck the mind of the Societies, for it could not be doubted that all great assemblages of people, upon whatever occasion, in a place like Laicism, were alasys attended with danger to the public peace. lf, however. a great number of persons expressed a wish to see thew Sovereign, and proceeded in procession towards his palace foe that purpose, as the Trades Societies had dace, however inconvenient ex even dangerous they might be, still it could not be prevented, for th e law of the wan. try was that a breach of the pence must actually occur before embody had a right to interfere. Now he quite agreed with his Noble Friend that the persons belonging to the police haling said that they appre hended no daoger to the public pesee—(hear, hear>s-and they it nii.bt be recollected best knew the means at their disposal for 16 pre. asevatios--it would have been unwise to attempt to pretreat the intended procession by force, for it was only by force that it could have been doom Before he left the Palace be had not omitted to inquire bow this assemblage had omdected themselves, and be found that as. thing could be more peaceable than their conduct, net only during their P e i bat at the Palace, when Remise about, waiting probably to an v" leis , foe he undimmed a report was spread about mosiirthe crowd aft 'bating would posbably present himself at a window. There was as domes, no es peemien of impatience, although they weer for a amslimaide period ed uced in their eapeetation, kis Majesty having boss engaged b beigiog a Corned ; nothing, in Amer, could be menanise sod ealkorly than their whole conduct. t . 1