Star. — London, England, 1820-07-19 00:00:00

'i .~ • .. • • % • ''‘% some abservatioin on the subject, referred to certaks provisionebf the A . .c,Kof the 16th of the lstte King, respecting offenders who attempted to disguise their faces by blackening or other means, which provisions he proposed should- be 'left untouc hed .115. anything in the Bill before theiiLordsliipi. . . The Marquis of LIMSDOWN signified his ac quiescence in the proposition - of the NOble and Learned Lord ; and the Bill, after receiving a cor responding Amendment, was read the third time and passed. = On the question for the.third reading of the Ca- Thal Felonies Repeal Bill, a discussion of some length took place. The LORD CHANCELLOR expressed consider able 'doubts as to the effect of passing the Bill in its present shape. -It would militate too extensively against the principle upon which so great a portion - of our law of punishment is founded. The Noble and Learned Lord then referred to provisions in - various Statutes,-which he was certain it would be essential to the due administration of justice should be left untouched. He also thought, with respect to thz effect of those Statutes, at least it would be pro per nothing should be done until they had the opi ,n'on of the Judges upon the subject; and, in his view • of the question, he thought it would be desirable to have the Bill recommitted. The Marquis of LANSDOWN had no decided objection to the course proposed by the Noble Lord on the Woolsack ; and h: had no objection to the leaving out those parts of the Bill adverted to, in or der to their lying over till the next Session for more deliberate discussion. The leading provisions of the hill went to change or commute the punishment for the offence, enumerated in the Bill, now liable to the infliction of death, to the punishment of transporta tion for not less than seven years. The Earl of LIVERPOOL wished to offer one single idea to the consideration of the House. Let their Lordships consider what the fact of transporta tion for life or for a term of years, really was—it was, in point of fact, upon the whole, regarded as no punishment. The great defective point in all the Criminal Law System of this country was, that there was no secondary punishment theiein. 'When that of transportation was first enacted, perhaps it was considered as an infliction little short of death. The convicts were sent to the burning shores of Africa, or sent to the back settlements of America, where they were sold as servants, and placed perhaps in a worse situation than in the other place; in short, transporta tion was then looked upon as worse than death.— In the present day the thing was widely different; for his own part, he was officially beset with appli carrions from individuals to go out to New South Wales as free sutlers, which they deemed a great be nefit and advantage, and the convicts who were sent thither deemed it the best thing that could he done for them to be sent to Botany Biy. Thus to increase the practice of temptation, as would be the effect of the bill, would be beginning at the wrong end. The punishment of death, in many points of view, it may be well to hold out in terrorem. lie merely threw out those ideas for the eventual consideration of the House, not meaning to offer anything founded there. on on the present occasion. The LORD CHANCELLOR expressed his full concurrence in the suggestion of his Noble Friend.— The want of some secondary punishment was the great defect in our Criminal Code. Transportation, he also thought, was not now regarded as a punish ment ; on the contrary, he believed many offences were committed in the hope of being adjudged to tr.msportition. The Learned Judges were generally impressed with these sentiments, and they felt much difficulty in acting to their own satisfaction under that defect in the code. Such parts of the present Bill as went to increase the evil alluded to, ought not, he thought, to be enacted. Lord R EDESD ALE said, that persons were often prevented from bringing offenders to justice, not from any feeling that the law was unnecessarily se vere, but because they did not wish to be at the ex pense of the prosecution. Such expense ought to fall not upon the individual, but upon the Public. Ile bad known a case of extreme hardship to a person who had prosecuted a culprit. The expense amounted to £l5O more than he was allowed, and had a sub scription not been made for him by his neighbours, he would have been utterly tuineJ, being a man in straightened ciicumstances. One peculiar advan tage resulted from the law as it now stood ; it was this, that persons even with the determination of committing crimes, were induced to abstain from those brutal acts of violence which disgraced other countries, under the impression that, even should they be convicted, the Royal mercy might' be ex tended to them. It was peculiar to the policy of our jurisprudence to describe crimes under general terms, and to apportion the punishment to the highest ag-, gravation of them. In cases not marked with any ; particular feature of more heinous delinquency, thei prerogative of mercy was very properly exercised in favour of the person convicted, while it was as justly denied when the facts did not warrant a mitigation of punishment. It had upon one occasion become his painful duty to pass sentence of death upon a wo man s.;ve;lty-six years old, who had been in the prac tice of horse-stealing for forty or fifty years before. Their Lordships would see that this was a case where. ' the Royal clemency oug ht not to he extended, yet the Bill now before their Lordships took away capital punishment from ail cases of a similar description. Earl BATIIIMST had strong doubts whether transportation could ever prove a good secondary pu nishment. Punishment ought not only to be severe upon the individual, but it ought to be of such a na ture .as to produce a salutary effect by its example. The .persons sent out upon the Commission to New South Wales, had with this view been directed to ascertain whether any more severe punishment might not be inflicted on offenders in that Colony, in order that those at home might be deterred in the pro gr e ss of their delinquency. There was another point which their Lordships ought to consider in reference to this subject—it was, the very great expense attending the secondary punishment of transportation, which was become a serious burden upon the country. The Marquis of LANSDOWN said, that neither this Bill, nor the other two Bills, professed to do away capital punishment in cases where personal violence was offered, and that the effect of them would be to render the punishment of death more .• certain, where the crime wait of- such a =tuft as to *inland the forfeiture of life. • The LORD CHANCELLOR then proposed, that so much as relates to the 9th Geo. 111. ch. 6, to the 92d Geo. n. to the Bth teall. ch. 27 and ch. 19,4: and 9, should be omitted in the Bill, which bring agreed to, the Bill was read a third time andotssed. THE NAVY. . r The Earl of DARNLEY, before their Letshilips proceeded to the other Orders of .the Day, begged leave to make a few observations upon a subject to which he would have called their Lordships atten tion at an earlier period but for the full occupation which recent proceedings had afforded them. It had occurred to him that it would be most desirable, in the possible event of any hostilities breaking out be tween this country and any other maritime power, to prevent the recurrence of that difficulty and dis tress which were experienced at the commencement of the late American war, in consequence of the in-' adequacy of our naval force, of a certain description, to cope with that of tie enemy. He was anxious, therefore, to ascertain, in the first place, the state of reparation in which the Navy at present was; and, in the second, to have a return of the number of ships of the line in commission, or ready for service. By these means he should be able to put the House in possession of the number of two-deckers and fri gates carrying 24.-pounders on their upper decks.— The Noble Earl then went on to state what he un derstood to be the existing number of King's'ships of different sizes ; and observed, that there were none of a description answering to the American frigates, all of them being too large or too light to cope with them. The best sort of ship was that which bore the largest force in the smallest compass. Consi dering the acquirement of such information, and the discussion of this subject as of very great importance to the coantry,•it was his intention, on a future occa.. sion, to move for the Returns he had mentioned. In the meanwhile, he was anxious to give the Navy Board, and the Noble Lord at its head, their due credit ; for the British Navy, at this moment, was on a more respectable footing than it had ever been before in time of peace. After some further details, the Noble Earl complained that the Estimates for the last year were much larger:than those of the, preceding, connected with this subject, and that it was quite impossible for the country to go on pros perously while the present immense scale of public expenditure was kept up. Lord MELVILLE, in reply, began by observing, that although it was irregular, when no motion was submitted, to offer any observations upon the inten tions of Noble Lords, he felt it necessary, oh this occasion, to say a few words. As to the expense of the Naval Department, it might reasonably be ex. pected to diminish year after year, in consequeacc of the improved system upon which it was conducted, and of the great attention that had been paid to the goodness and durability of the stores and eq':ipinents. —The unfortunate necessity under which we had been, some years since, of imparting every descrip tion of stores from the Baltic, had introduced the seeds of a ruinous decay, which he Was happy to say was in a progress of speedy eradication. The reason why it had not been thought proper to build new ships of the size and character to which the Noble Earl had adverted was, in fact, a principle of the soundest economy, it being at once more expeditious, expedient, and economical to repair the ships we already possessed in a durable and efficient manner, than to build new ones. As to the difference in the Estimates of the two last years, it was very natural that the Noble Earl should be led into a mistake upon the subject ; the truth being, that it resulted principally from the manner in which those Estimates had formerly been made up, very many of the ex penses having been charged under the wrong heads. ALIEN BILL. Lord SIDMOCTH, in rising to move the Order of the Day for the second reading of this Bill, said, it was now unnecessary for him to advert to the un doubted right whiCh appertained to the prerogative,' of the Crown, not only to order foreigners out of the' kingdom at pleasure, but also to prohibit them from entering it. This right was not to be disputed. The Bill proposed in 1818 did little more than define and accelerate the manner in which the prerogative of the Crown was to be acted upon. it would be for their Lordships to consider, whether, since the Bill of 1818 was passed, any favourable alteration had taken place in the circumstances of this country or of Europe, to render the measure less necessary now than at that period: lie regretted, however, to state, that, in his opinion, no such favourable change had occurred; but that, on the contrary, the Bill appeared to him to be more imperiously called for than at the time it was first proposed. He wished their Lord ships to consider what were the provisions of the Bill with respect to Aliens. Their Lordships would per ceive that they were so modified as to give to fo reigners every possible indulgence, consistent with a due regard to the objects which the measure itself contemplated. Upon the landing of an Alien, he was to report his name, his age, profession, and otter' particulars, to the Collector of ti)e Customs, who was to give a certificate, which, on producing it, would enable him to pass unmolested from one part of the country to the other. Now that be had shewn that this right of dismissing foreigners from the kingdom and preventing them from entering it, belonged to the prerogative of the Crown, it would next remain for him to satisfy their Lordships that it had not been abused. This was a point upon which their Lord ships must feel anxious; and,he assured them, if any abuse had taken place, it was not from want of soli citude on his part that the right should be duly and properly exercised:--indeed, it might reasonably be inferred that no abuse had taken place, •as not a single resident Alien had been remanded from the country under the Act of 1818, and only nine indi viduals of any description. He should not shrink from performing his duty with regard to this measure, however Noble Lords might differ with him upon its general or particular merits. With this feeling upon his mind, he should now move, " That the Bill be read a second time." The Earl of DARNLEY opposed the Motion. He regretted that he had not been present on the former occasion, to express the sentiments of indignation he felt at a measure so truly disgraceful to the character of the.country. He deprecated the conduct of his ,Majeoty's Ministers,. in coming forwaid, t year after year, and calling for such a Bill as this, i n a petiod of profound peace. Did they, or did Noble 14, • t iseliere that a few foreigners cotiiiag tilt this country could possibly disturb or affect its internal repose, or injure its external iniiirasti? Theargnments of the Noble Lord were urged with his peculiar mildness, raid would shew that no abuse could take place of the power that was vested in him. He was willing to give the Noble Lord every credit for gentleness and good feeling; but still he could not consent to .place such extensive power in the hands of any indi vidual, however excellent might be the qualities of his heart. It was the policy of this. country always to encourage, rather than repel foreigners. But this was a law against every principle of policy, justice, and humanity ; it was one which, as he had, already staled, was most disgraceful to the nation; and he should not suffer that Bill to pass, without entering his decided protest against it. Lord HOLLAND said, however unfavourable the state of the - House of . Parliament, and the public mind might be to the discussion of the Bill, he should enter his protest against it, and make a few observa tions as to the manner and the time in which it was introduced to their Lordships. After having so many times urged on the House the cruelty, the injustice, the unconstitutionality, and the impolicy of this law, he should not now press those great points on their Lordships, but he could not help addressing hinistlf to the manner in which it had been introduced. He felt, indeed, the irksomeness of addressing the House at that hour of the night, and at that time of the Ses sion, well .knowing, as he also did, that the public mind was occupied with another topic. But as he ,thought this Bill well worthy of attention, he was .not to be deterred from performing his duty, because there was another subject which attracted much at tention. As to that subject, indeed, the Public and Parliament, and in some degree, he would own, he himself were in the situatien which was destribeci by the author of a book which he had read eighteen years ago. The author of that book, Mr. Eaton, who had put his obserrations during his travels in Turkey into a book called The Survey of the Turkish Empire, happened to land at a port of bulgatia with twenty-six persons in his suite, where he was intro duced to the Greek Governor, who was sitting on a bench with a Turk of great distinction. This Turk, with a look which manifested that " great distinc tion," gave his order, that Mr. Eaton, with all his suite, should have their heads cut off, and he accord- ingly sent for a bag, probably a green bag, as green was a colour in great honour with persons of that persuasion—(A laugh)—and for some saw-dust,. the bag being to receive the heads, and the saw-dust to absorb the blood of Mr. Eaton and his companions. In the suite of Mr. Eaton, was an interpreter of the Italian nation, besides whom, there was not one who could speak a word of Turkish. The whole of the twenty-six were very earnest with the interpreter to state who they were, and what claims they had on the respect of the Turkish Authorities. But he had unfortunately got a glimpse of the bag, and with all the grimace which is peculiar to the people of the South of Europe, he kept exclaiming (and_ not a word else would he utter), " quel sacco quel malcdetto sacco Oh ! that bag ! that accursed bag!" (A laugh)—So that Mr. Eaton and his followers were in imminent danger of losing their property, their lives, and probably their characters, because this bag so filled the imagination of the interpreter. When he saw the number of Bills on the table, he thought the country was something in the s itu a ti on o f Mr. Eaton's suite, since Parliament, the interpreter of the wishes of the people, was likely to allow their pockets to be picked, and their liberties to be endangered, because of their dismay at the accursed Green Bag! (A laugh).—This, perhaps, might be the reason of the very short introduction with which the Noble Vis- Count had prefaced his Bill. If indifference to the credit of the country and to the feelings of the people were a merit, the speech of the Noble Viscount seemed to shew it in the highest degree. It was called in common phrase cool and easy r(A laugh). The Noble Viscount had asked them, whether they saw any reasons in 1818, which did not exist in 1820? and on the strength of this interrogation he called on' them to deliver several thousands of human beings to the arbitrary power of the Minister. For they should nut lay the flattering unction to their souls that they were only granting a particular branch of , power— the power of banishing a man from the country in which he was settled, included every other power; it included a power over his property, a power over his happiness—( Hear, hear).-1;le had heard the Noble Viscount eloquent at times in praise of the laws and the Constitution. This Bill was nothing but a satire, a libel on the laws of England ; as the argument on which it was founded was nothing, if it were not subversive of every free Government.— They now talked of Aliens, as at other times they talked of Catholics, as if there was nothing to pre vent treason and sedition, but these occasional laws. There might be bad Frenchmen, there might be bad Aliens, who came here for the purpose of overturn- . ing the Government (no easy thing for a f or ei gner to do, but that by the bye)—it was just possible that a foreigner might come here with that intention.— But had we no protection against such a man ? (Hear, hear).—The Noble Lord would not object to all our Treason laws, as he was supposed to do to that of 1696? What did we want but the security of our laws? Whether the persons who assailed the State were Catholics or Protestants, Englishmen or Aliens, were not our laws sufficient to protect it ? ( Hear, hear).—Whatever the malice of Aliens might be, he knew not of any greater necessity for an addi-, tional law to protect the country against it, than. to protect it against a Thistlewood, or any other per sons who might entertain atrocious and wicked de signs. Whatever little argument the Noble Viscount bad vouchsafed them, consisted in the assertion that the power to be given by this Bill was a prerogative of the Crown, and in the presumption that this power would Rot be abused. It was a little remarkable, on what different grounds the Bill had been, at different times, introduced. If the power of sending friendly Aliens out of the country was a prerogative of the Crown, there surely must have been a means of exer cising it—( Hear, hear).—A prerogative would not remain in abeyance—and_he should be allowed to say, that nothing was a prerogative that was not given to be exercised for the advantage of the corn =unity of which the King was the Chief Magistrate. ft was a singular thing, that from the period of, MagriMarta to Queen Elizabeth; that in the 27 Acts of Parliament which related to this subjeCt, there was as mention, no appearance that any such prerogative _A -.ed. The sending of &Ott oet of the country by Proclamation, on which great stress had been laid, bad now been shewn to have been done under a Spe cial Act,of Henry VII. which, with other Acts offen sive to the Scots, was repealed in the reign of James I. So that, so far from that proclamation being a proof of the existence of the prerogative, the proclamaiioa was (as it followed the very words of the Statute) a proof that such a prerogative did not exist, as there was need of an express Act of Parliament to autho rise it. The most unobservant readers of aocient writers must have, remarked,. that great confusioa prevailed among them as to their descriptions or de finitions of the sovereign power. All those parts of the supreme power which every State possesses, which could not be conveniently exercised, were ge neridly represented by Civil Lawyers to be parts the prerogative. It had been said, by old writers or law, that England was an rabsolute Monarchy, winor merely meant that it depended on nn wher S:ate, but from this expression it had been inferred tl:.,t are King had sovereign power. Mr. Pym, or Sir L Coke, had well said, "I know the sovereignty of the King's person, but as to sovereign power he does not possess h." When it was said that it was the right of the sovereign power to send foreigners out of - a country, it was merely meant to say that its doing so was not a legitimate ground of war to the nation to which those foreigners belonged. llut the sovereign power was in England, not in the Ki:,g alone, but in King, Lords, and Commons. 11'riters might be apt to conceive that, because it was a part of the sovereignty, it must be lodged in the. Crown —but this was an unwarranted assumption. All the instances which the Noble Viscount had referred to on a former occasion, either proved nothing from the violence of the times in which they occurred, cr proved too much, for the powers which were cea tended for were, at the times which had been men tioned, exercised upon persons who were not aliens, as well as upon aliens ; but though the acts were contrary to law, there was no redress for those . v.las had suffered under them. This brought him to an argument of the Noble Viscount, that the powers had not been abused. Whether they had or not, he (Lord Holland) knew not ; but he knew, that if the Noble Viscount acted illegally or improperly, leis unfortunate victims had no redress. The Noble Viscount knew, that when he had seized some paper-, he (Lord Holland) had wished to ascertain the le gality of the fact, but because the person who had suffered under it was,sent out of the country, it N\ as impossible for him to do so. He did not say v, tiler the act was legal or no ; he did not wish at that moment to make any particular charges, but he knew, that if papers had been seized in the same manner from a person who was not sent out of the country, that person would have been able to bring the legality of the action to the lest. "He (Lc). Holland) had taken the advice of lawyers of mi. nence--he had offered to take a power of attorney to proseeute the action, but was told that it was impossible. Though he had much friendship and respect for the Noble Viscount who exercised this power, he certainly could not, after the experience of the last two or three years, pay him compliments on his mildness in the execution of Iris office—(Hear). However civility might induce him to say in the Lobby to any Noble Lord, that he was persuaded he would not abuse a power entrusted to him, he should. .say as a Member of Parliament, that he did not know the use of the Statute Book, or the advantage of any free Government, if there was not a presump tion that arbitrary power, wherever it was granted, would .be abused—(Hear, hear). But it was not merely in the case of arbitrary power being abused that it was mischievous ; the submission, the prostra tion of mind which it produced, were the same, whether it was abused or not. It was the conscious ness that the power might be abused, that made the difference between a government of will and a go vernment of law. He had stated before, that he had known instances of the advantages taken over fo reigners. Advantage might be taken by one man over another, under such a law as this—by the au. dacious and cunning over the timid and artless, even if it applied to Englishmen. But as it applied to poor foreigners, quite Ignorant of our manners, it was a more powerful instrument in the hands of bad men. " You saw me take off my hat to Lord Sidmouth, and what a gracious bow he made me in return ; I am his particular friend, and I have only to whisper in his ear that you are a Jacobin, and you will be sent out of the country instantly; give me six months more to pay my debts, or I shall go to the Secretary of State's Office!" Things of this kind had come to -his knowledge, and if they had not, he should have known, from his acquaintance with human nature, that such things must have happened under such a law. But he did not merely look on the law as mis chievous in this indirect way; he had always re garded it as one of the most atrocious engines of the spirit of despotism--as one of the links of the great chain wherewith to bind down the Prometheus of litical improvement throughout the world—f at the various Congresses of Monarchs !—( r The Noble. Lord then mentioned the case of lish Gentleman, who had been prosecuting suit for a sum of money, against a Governs friendly to our own, who was shipped off ' , country. Spilt an act as this might have, 'served, formerly made the subject of a frieni presentation ; but by the Alien Act their mout stopped—they would he told they could not plain, as they had changed their own laws, an arbitrary power over foreigners.—The Nk ron, after remarking on the strong impression every person wh o converse d with foreigne that this law made on them, observed on its , in the present s i tuat i on of the country. There a nation with which he hoped we should k tinue united in friendship, and not the less firm 1 , account of the late glorious change in her situ? he meant Spain. But if that country ghoul." flicted with any of the misfortunes with wl Revolution in France had been attended—if t. or the Clergy and the Nobles should take ref this country, the new Government of Spain ask us why we fostered their exiled enemies? . Alien Act did not exist, our answer was clear. might say—" We, like you, are a free people, yarned by" fixed laws, and we have no power 'miles from our shores." But we could not while the Alien Act existed, and we might! to exercise it—at least, so it had happened France, iu the case of a similar law. When ,: fer such a aw as mis- always re- ines of the the great ieus of po- d—forged • .(War). — )f an Eng- ing a law- wernment 3ff to this 'e, he ob- riendly re- ouths were not corn- vs, to get Noble Ba- ;ion which ners knew intpolicy There was long cone firmly on situation; aid be af- which the if the King refuge in ain might 1? If the lear. We eople, er to drive not say so t be forced med with 3 n the 1 4w 4 1