Star. — London, England, 1812-01-28 00:00:00

p I the whole necessary for the elucidation of the subject were in the hands of the Members. He could not see, from the papers already produced, any thing which could enable him to make up his mind. They had been undoubtedly very liberally provided by the Right Hon. Gentleman, and he did not mean eo throw blanie upon that Right Hon. Gentleman for the man ner in which they were drawn up, but he wanted to know if any means could be devised of abridging the . amount of the annual expenditure of the Civil List, without, at the same time, diminishing the splendour of the Monarch ? There was no person, he trusted, would believe of him, that in expressng a wish that the Civil Lift should not be liable to excess c expen diture, lie meant to abridge the comforts or the neces sary splendour which should at all times appertain to Royalty. The public, however, were led to believe that When the arrangements were made in 1804, care had been taken that no future excess should arise.— The first question which presented itself would be, was the expenditure of-1804. warranted ? When Gen tlemen considered that at that time the House acted upon an estimate which they were given to under stand would, as far asit related to the department of the Lord Steward, comprize the full amount of the outgoings. and voted in conformity with that estimate the sum of £65,000 as sufficient for that purpose, it was not a little extraordinary, that upon referring to the papers, the result of the expenditure of that year was a sum of £84,000. He did not mean to say that any thing unfair had been going on in that de partment to occasion the excess, but it had the effect of shewing, that little reliance WAS to be placed upon estimates. There was also an extraordinary paper relating to the disbursements to Foreign Ministers, the items of which he did not charge as being unjust —but when he moved for the papers on the subject, the accounts were never clearly understood, except by the Committee up stairs, and it was requisite that the House should know what vouchers were before that Committee to enable them to come to a just conclusion. The account was certainly correct in figures and detail, but it wanted information.— Now in 1804, the House was told that £lO,OOO was all that would be required for the purpose of disbursements to Foreign Ministers. The pa pers chewed that £83,000 had been expended.— This might be all right, but it seemed extraordinary that an estimate so short of the actual sum expended should be given in. With respect to the Chamber lain's accounts, he should not offer any observations, his object being that the nature of the Civil List ex penditure sheuld be referred to a Committee, so as on lite:r report the Hopse should not only be enabled to act liberally, and with honour to the Crown, but Also in•atich a manner as to satisfy the country. Al though he ( Mr. Tierney) was an advocate for the strictest practical Economy, he wits not disposed to drive it to extremes. He thought, however, regula tions might be adopted more palateable to the coun try, because the country must desire information upon the subject ; that the expenditure of the year exceeded the estimates, was what called for explanation, and explanation satisfactory to the country. It was with that view, among many others, that he was induced to oppose the going into the Committee for the pre vat. He not only had these objections on account of the want of information in the papers on the table, but he also conceived the Bill was not such. a Bill as should pass. He knew the odium which might be cast upon him for this opinion unexplained, and he knew that he was liable to have his opinions misre presented out of doors. In saying that the Bid ought net to pass, he meant that it was composed of such materiels as ought to preclude the House from enter reining.it. As to that part of it which related to the dispension of Its Majesty's private property, 1:0 in struction had been given to the Corninittce as to pro posing any thing about the private property ; he had dottb.s Loo as to the propriety of the House legisla ting on the subject. Ot the accumulation of that pro perty for years he would-say nothing, but he would say that Parliament ought not to be called upon to recognize any private property as belonging indivi dually to his Majesty. By a clause in the Bill, three Commissioners mere to be appointed to regulate that property, and these Commissioners were to have a salary each of £lOOO per annum. Now it would be for the House to consider e hat the amount of that property in the hands of his Majesty must be which could attord to pay £3OOO a-year for the mere audit ing of the accounts—(Hear, hear.) In making these obsetvatioes, he did net wish to enquire into or say any thing on the subject, which could in the smallest degree effect the feelings of any one branch of the Royal Family; but he must object to the interference of Parliament, and much more so to the appointment or the Contissioners, because they were to be sworn "not to betray the secrets of the Prison House."— This property was in effect Crown property, and not meant to be private property. In discussing this part of the subject, he was conscious of the delicacy bf his situa'ion, and that he was speaking of things pot ordinarily within the view of Parliament—that he was consequently liable to misinterpretafon, and in . some quintets of wilful roisinterpretetion ; he therefore wished that those Royal Personages most Interested were present in the House to hear his sen timents. He was anxious that every syllable he ut tered should be dealt out with becoming respect to the Monarch and those nearest concerned, and at the same time he should not consent to give more than was consistent with the circumstances and honour of the count' y. With this impression, he hoped the House would allow him to go rather more into detail than he otherwi,e should have gone ; and he . ehoUld not have done so were it not a question of the grea test importance in every point of view. The Bill prefessed to be " a Bill for the due arrangement of his Majesty's Household, and fur the resumption (if fortunately that period should arrive) of the Royal Authority." Now the House would consider the cir cumstances under which the Bill so framed came for discussion. An Act' passed for settling the Regency for twelve months under certain restrictions, which Act had very nearly expired. The restrictions con- 1 tained in that Act were such as the Prince of Wales felt, were net only painful, but injurious and insult ing to the character of his Royal Highness. Since the passing of that Act, up to the present moment, his RoyaleHighness had conducted himself in such a manner as not only to call forth the admiration of the country, but also to remove any suspicion, if any man had suspicion Inrking in his mind at the time the Act passed, that his future conduct would not be . 7 7 T regulated in the sante manner—(Hear, hear.) The agree to provide otherwise than su ffi ciently and consider it in any other point of viol. If t hi s als whole of his Royal Highness's conduct had been di-' abundantly for the maintenance of his Majesty befit- not a separate Court, he would wish to know t o e , meted by attention to the comforts of his Royal Fa.; ting his station. Without fa r ther information he was. His objections to such a system were \ seen could not proceed. The disposition and arrangement ther, and which had on all occasions done credit to in every view of it ; for, supposing the Prince and himself, and would give the lie direct to any insinua- of the Privy Purse formed one of the main objections that Coen to pull together, it would ope rate as 4 tions to the contraty. There was nothing in his which he had to the Bill. The House must recollect great increase of the influence of the Crown. Th e Royal Highness's past conduct that could lead to a i that in making these arrangements they wets making Prince would of necessity supply all those I paces f et suspicion, that if he was clothed with full powers I them for a new Reign. It was his wish that his himself which were already filled for his M a j esty, he would abuse those powers. What was the return I Royal Highness should ascend the Throne not only; Sopposing, on the other hand, that political ddi e . which his Royal Highness met with ? By this new 1 with the confidence, but with the blessings of the rences should arise, and he was sure no oth ers mild Bill he was to be treated as a person not fit to be l people. The Right Honourable Gentleman had said (even that supposition was highly improbable), to trusted—as if he had not atoned fo r any supposed or I that the sum of £70,000 was to be placed in the what a situation would the Prince be reduced wi t h imaginary errors by the rectitude of his conduct, and ! hands of the Prince "to meet certain .eneagentestes a Court in opposition—(Hear, hear, hear.) Th ew , consequently had not w ip e d o ff that dark disgust 'of honour." What did the Honourable Gentleman ground that he could see for all this was, a woe fir which had dictated the measure twelve months since. I mean ? Did he mean that his Royal Highness had continuing the system of the last year, a sy stem , 1 , (Hear, hear, rom Me Ministerial Benches, accompanied certain debts to discharge, for he cou'd mean no- distrust. He was warranted in calling it a ay s s ea(4 :s with a smile I ) The Right Honourable Gentleman ' thing else. What those engagements .were, to be distrust ; for it was evident, though his Royal H ii i a. seemed amused with these opinions, but he (Mr. T.) ' sure, he did not know, unless they related to ness was not in a situation to speak his mind ea: :, ' did not see much of comicality in them, and he would debts. If so, and those debts were thoroughly sifted, through the medium of Ministers , that he thcugh ta.,. endeavour to convince the Right Hon. Gentleman his Royal Highness would not be found subject to The object of the Ilill was to make her M a j esty a so. In considering the Act, he must make two as- any other observation than that he had not acted upon substantive and separate character, and to invest ken sumptions. In the fist place, that it would in sub. ; all occasions with due propriety ; that in some instan- West) , with a power which she ought not t o e m. stance place his Royal Highness on the throne per. ces negligence might be imputed to his conduct, and —.-( Hear, hear.) He had confined himself is saw manently, (in the event that what all desired did net in others the charge of prolusion. He should not act he had said to the principle of the Bill. If he too fortunately happen) and that it would make such ar- either as the friend of his Royal Highness or the peo- to act merely from his own opinions, he w o od eys, rangements that his Majesty might, if happily he ple, if he did not say these o engagements" cif which pose the Speaker's leaving the Chair altogether, a could, resume the Royal Authority. Secondly,— the Right Honourable Gentleman talked ought to be order to get rid of the Bill ; but, lest he should elk. That his Royal Highness ceases to be Prince of stated fairly, and in an open manner to the House— ject himself to misconception or misrepresentatio n die Wales on that assumption, and of course whatever ( Hear, hear !) If it was intended to repose confidence a subject of this kind, he opposed it condition a ll y was vested in him as Prince of Wales, was at an end in the Prince, and hail him as the future Sovereign, with a view to the future appointment of a Coma e : also; that is to say, the Executive Government let the House act liberally—pay his debts—(Jlcer, tee for the purpose of considering the various peas ' would be entirely in him. The principles which he hear!) He knew that in thus seeaking out be Was connected with the establishment of the Roy a l f eat i . had assumed would be violated by this Bill ; for the peihaps net seeking popularity. He cared not for Mr. G. JOHNSON thought Parliament wo o d last year the country only recognized one Coart.— the interpretation which might he put upon his con- not do its duty if it poeceeded upon the Bei as i t Parliament were now called upon to establish two duct, or whether he offended high or low—he still now stn od. Having before them informa t i oa t e at Courts. With respect to tee establishment of these must say, th it unless the debts were disgiacefuily I the Civil List was not equal to the purposes f or st oa t Courts, many Gentlemen who had not heard the contracted, Parliament ought to pay them—( Hear, it was granted, I c was erepared to contend, if t h ee ,. speech of the Right Honourable Gentleman in de- hear !) There was nothing, in his opinion, mote den- penditure were crow:wed with what it was fnimetly, tailing the plan, would be totally in the dark. It was gerous to the Monarchy. than to have it understood and the different value of mole), were consid ere d, a proposed to vote £70,000 per annum in addition, in the country that his Royal Highness had engage- is ould appear, it did not exceed what it was in t h e b est and to make his Royal Highness a present of ments which were of such a nature as not proper to times of the Constitution —in the reigns of lung we, £lOO,OOO annually. Now, when he asked explanation be laid before Parliament. It was not considered ham and Queen Ann. He lamented that when t h e . on this subject, how would he - be answered ?—Why, monstrous to pay the debts of his Royal Father, revision of the Civil List took place in 1801•, su ed. the Right Hon. Gent. had stated, as he understood because they were contracted in providing that ent provision had not then been made to answer all the plan, it was this :—His Majesty had a Civil List splendour necessary to the support and maintenance the demands which might be made on it. H e c e. Revenue of €950,000, (putting out of the question of the dignity of the Crown. The objection might jetted to the system of ming off arrears from the the revenues arising from the Duchies of Cornwall be taken, if his Royal Highness remained in the Droits of Admiralty; but for that resource M e e and Lancaster) ;out of that List he proposed to give station of Prince of \Vales, but when he ceased sters would have more carefully watched over th em £60,000 tothe Prince of \Vales y • he would therefore to be Prince, then the question assumed another penditure. It had been said, the House had no r i g . have at his disposal an available income of about aspect. Was his conduct to be h e ld up to the to examine into those resources from which the auras £900,000. Of that sum it was proposed to take country in a va riety o f p o i nts of v i e w, which he would were paid. Mr. Burke's Bill provided even far the 8170,000,name1y,8100,000 fur his Majesty's House- abstain from touching upon ? In times like these it board wages of his Majesty's servants. Would i t 1 hold, 560,000 for his privy purse, and 410,000 for was not prudent to pursue any course which might be then be contended, that the House was not comp s . her Majesty's use. This gross sum of £170,000 de- dangerous to the Monarchy. He mu s t ca ll to the re- tent to enquire into the application pf a fund amount, , ducted from the £900,000 would leave a clear in- : collection of the House that clause in the Bill which ing to £8,000,000 ? He agreed with Mr. T. t h e i come 01R - 130,000. Tnis was one side of the question. ! noticed the excess in the Civil List eXi enditure of the influence given to her Majesty by this Bill d s . • On the other it was proposed to add the sum of £121,000 annually, en the average, since 1804. If it mended serious attention. It would give her an i s . 570,000, which would brine it to RBOO,OOO, to which was right to pay that excess, and he did not question it, fluence over nine Peers and four Commonete— must be added also, 850,000 to be given to his Royal would i t not be equally an act of justice to discharge I ( Hear, hear.)—He also thought the three Commis. Highne‘s as Prince of Wales, making in the whole these" engagements ?" It was len dealing justly by stoners who were to superinteiui the private prope rt y £850,000, leaving the Civil List Revenue in the the Prince to say that his debts had already been paid of the King should be disqualified from sitting in Par. hands of his Royal Highness, 850,000 less than what by the public. They were not paid by the public, liement.—( H ear , h ear .)—The H ouse s h ou ld never his Royal Father enjoyed. Now, whether the sum' but by reserving for that purpose a part of his Royal lose sight of one grand object, namely, fixieg tie so proposed to be given was enough to maintain the Highness's income, which was regularly paid up to Civil List expenditure at a specific sum, and t o ten . dignity of the Sovereign, he could not say, and there- 11804, wanting a b ou t two ye ar s of the time of COM- der Ministers responsible for any excess of it. ?4r. J. fore it was necessary the House should be informed. ' piecing payment of all the demands. The Right Hon. then adverted to the grant made out of the Civil It had been stated too by the Right Hon. Gentle. Gentleman recommended to the House the necessity List of ,C7OOO in 1810 to Sir Sidney Smith, fo r se man that his Royal Highness would defray the ex- l of placing the establishment upon some footing with vices performed in 1798. He did not mean to say pence of the Windsor establishment when there, out respect to arrangement, which might conduce to the that gallant Officer was not deserving s uch rew ar d, of the Revenue thus appropriated for his purpose ; . honour and satisfaction of those who gave, and of but he mentioned it to shew that as soon as a check but with respect to Carlton House, there was no pre- those who received. With respect to the proposition was taken off the Civil List expenditure, and it aro cise information given ; without full information, the for the care of the Princesses, namely, that in town found possible to provide for its excess fronka contio House would, by passing this Bill, run great chance his Royal Highness was to provide the establishment . gent fund, caution ceased to guide those who had the of deceiving the country, as was the case in 1804, and for them, and in the country, her Majesty ; that was isposal of it, and then they first thought of reward. , seeing how injurious that precedent was, it was a propesition which met his decided disapprobation. ia ' ing services performed 12 years befor e . He should dangerous for the House to act upon it. Besides, An establishment ought to be folmed separate for the not vote against the Bill, but hoped the provisions of ' the House was called upon now to make a new Princesses ;—they were arrived at an age when it it would be extended to all these objects. Civil List fur what he must consider a new reign.— became necessary ; but the whole of the arrange- Mr. M. MONTAGUE said, a great part of tie The Prince at present enjoys a revenue of 5120,000, ments carried w i:h them the air of !uspicion. Is uas i sum given to Sir S. Smith, had been paid by that of which £50,000 is in this new order of things to be tee a little extraordinary that the (snips lion. Gentle-1 Pehlic were still in d e bt to him fie all t he expences Gerd man out of his own pocket ; and, in fact, the deducted, and then a sum of £ 70,000 annually will man refused to come forward with a permanent regu- I remain in his hands, which after deducting the lation, especially of convening the Court of Lieson to the Brazils. when all were ready to baar the ' 550,000 to be applied to the Civil List, would leave a burdens which must be imposed, with cheat fulness. ' Mr. G. JOHNSON explaieed. He did not say it balance of £20,000 over this 870,000. Parliament, What other obj e ct c o u ld t h e Right Hon. Gentleman was not fit the sum should he paid, but he thought a s the Bill proposed, was not to have controul ; that have in view, in thus legislating from Year to year, if it was due to him, it was unjust in the pubiic to his Royal Highness would administer it faithful:) , but this : to keep his Royal Highness every year un- ! withhold it from him so long. and duly he had not the least doubt ; but notwith. der restrictions, in order that he might he induced to Sir T. TUR.TON did nr t object to theanincipleof standing this opinion, still he must consider the pro. give something to his Ministers. (Moe, hear.)— the Bill, hut was much disott seed iveh the d scument po s ition as a monstrous one, which called a Pallet. But lie (Mr. '1 ierney) wished to see him relieved which had been laid before the House, a nd ciold net ment to vest so Loge a sum as £70,000 annua ly from his embarrassments, not by prrenting any lavish ! agree to going into a Committee on the bll till the without any sort of controul. Not only this part of grants, but by giving to his Royal Highness what accounts tied undergone the Inv e ctiption of a Corn. the arrangement was objectionab'e, but many others. this House ought to give, and which , when given h.; mittee above-st irs a be thought there were items at In her Majesty was to be vested the controul over beraily, might settle els embairassments effectually. these accounts, which, if investigated, would re n der the £170,000 to be applied for his Majesty's House- Was it too Much to say that he was mistrusted %silo the additinual gratis of ,e 70,000 unnecessary: he pat. held. There were to be two privy pulses, one took r was not allowed the manage ment o f the servants ne- ' ticulerly alluded to the it e m under the head of D pia her Majesty's directions, the other under the controul cess try to his royal father ? Would not any son in ! matey, which, in ISO+, when we had several Foreign of the Prince Regent. That of the Prince Regent the humble conditions of life suppose so ? Weatid ! Ministers, was fixed at £62,000 ; in 1811, when we of R 60,009, was correct dad proper :but with respect he not consider himself ill treated by the adoption of bad none, it amounted to seleS,ooo ; he alluded to to the R 70,000 for his Majesty's use, he saw no just such unnecessaiy ; and suspicious arrangements ? But the expellees of the mission of the Marquis Welleski grounds, because his Majesty would not administer was there any advantage likely to accrue to his Ma.' to Spain, which amounted to £16,000. the Government. By this arrangement, what would jesty from it ? Assuming the fact that his Majesty , Mr. WHITBREAD said, di it the public were become of Mr. Burke's bill ? If the privy purse of did require a Lord of the Bedchamber, a Groom of indebted to Sir S. S m i t h f or serv i ces , no on e could his Royal Highness, for instance, was not to be sub- the Stole, and the Equerries formerly in attendance, deny ; but there was another debt due to him OM ject to controul, then his Royal Highness would have what was there to prevent the Queen from asking n a mely, an explan at i on , t h at an a p p li cation to Polio conveyed to him a sum of 4130,000 , with the fell those Officers from the Prince Regent ? Could ment, even for a lager sum than e 7,000 would hare knowledge and approbation of Parliament. Her any one suppose that lie would refuse them ? Was been receives. No one can doubt, it would not hen Majesty would also have £35,000 deducted from the there any difficulty in her Majesty's dcmapding been granted by vote, but by acclamation.—(Her , privy purse of his Majesty, the residue being reserved the attendance of those servants who were known hear!) —To the Marquis Wellesley, also, an expbna• for the payment of the Medical Establishment, which to be most in the favour of his Majesty ? The tion was due, as it appea r ed, t h a t af ter all the pre might perhaps amount to but a trifle, and the balance Queen had the whole management of the Household parations had been made by the public, a further eo would be conveyed to these three Commissioners., ' for the last year, but where was the advantage of that? pence of ,e 16,000 had been incurred for his mission. The House must see, under the proposed arrange. what was the fact ?Up to July last, a few Lords in i (Hear, Bear! from the Treasury Bench.) —If he en ments, in how very extraordinary a light the m atter , waiting, a f ew E querr i e s, &c. wer e deemed necessary; wrong, an explanation was more necessary ; and till s tood—recollecting always, that the Privy Purse did but sin:e that period the opinions of the Physicians an explanation was given, he c ould n o t consent to not of right belong to the man, but to the office, and went entirely to s hew that they were no longer want- the Speaker leaving the chair. It was said the error in this case would be vested in the person who cou ld ing. B u t wh ere , h e wou ld ask, w a s the necessity for of the Civil List was £124,000 per annum • but no not administer the Government. Ho might be charg.' a separate Court ?—( H ear, hear )—For a Court not account how these arrears arose was laid before the ed with taking captious objections—but was this a ' responsible ; fora ourt, whose expences were not House. It was said this was a Bill to provide for the captious objection ? He did not object to the entire I cognizable by the Treasury ? and was not such a ' care of his Majesty's person ;he denied that it was so sum of R 170,000, because, with the information be. ! court created lay this Bill ?By it the sum of €llO,OOO That was the title of the Bill, indeed ; but it was, in fore him, he did not know whether that sum was too I was put und er th e .controul of th e Qu e en. F our e ff ect , i nten d e d to create a separate influence —it much or too little. Was it to be understood, that all ; Lords of the Bed-chamber w ere granted to her, a ' was to create two Courts ; and if these two Coons the charges would remain on the Privy Purse to be , Groom of the Stole, and, altogethe r , twenty-one Offs. drew together, they would increase the influence of held by her Majesty, because if so, the Regent would I cers were at her disposal for the maintenance of the the Crown to a dangerous height ; if they drew coie stand with £130,000 at his disposal, and her Majesty I dignity of the King. It ought to b e rec ollected, i n toffy ways, they would retard - the wheels of Govan" have a sum of 470,000 for the Medical Attendants. I the mean time, that under the former arrangement, ment. On this ground, therefore, he opposed the ball With the knowledge of the enormous amount of pri- when his MOjesty Was happily enabled to perform Why not transfer the whol e Ci v il Li s t to his Rays ( vote property he could not consent to vote such a I the duties of a Monarch, the Queen's establishment Highness, and leave him to provide for the comfort sum. But suppose the fact was not so, and that only reflected a splendour on that of the King ; in and splendour of his Father, the House providing a £35,000 should remain at her Majesty's disposal for short, the operation of each was reciprocal ; but, un- fund to enable him to do so. The House was told the the purposes before stated, how could so large a sum , der the arrangement now proposed, the Queen's Prince wanted £70,000 a-year, because he Ives 1 ° be necessary ? Prove it, and no man would more " Establishment was separated from that of the Prince debt, yet the House had had no communication from readily vote it ; but he could not give his consent to' Regent. He had no hesitation to call it a different the Prince that such debts did exist ; and till hello ) such a vote while there existed the possibility of its, Court ; for, with all the different officers included in such communication in an officialshape, be wouldnot, being applied to the increase of private property.-- 1 the Bill with the Pages of the back stairs and the as a Member of Parliament, believe there was Oi l He could not with regard to the public interests Pages of the froot stairs, it was utterly impossil4e to debts in existence • sknri tberefige that khe /70,0 00 PP • ••• This might be that an estimate should be given lain's accounts, his object being penditure shr)u on titer report to act liberally, Also in • such though he (Mt strictest practic drive it to extre Lions might be try, because the the subject ; ciao the estimates, explanation sat: that view, amcy to oppose the g sent. He not I cf the want cf i but he also coal Should pass. c.tst upon him knew that he et presented out c not to pass, he materials as ou taining . it. As dispension of l struction had posing any this dottb.s too as I • zing on the sub pelt> , for years say that Parl4 recognize any dually to his NI Commissioners property, and salary each cf be for the Ho that property in could attord to ins of the acco obs2tvatioys, any thing on tl degree affect I Royal ; of Parliament,: or the Commis , ! 4 ' not to betray This prcperty meant to be part of the sub] bf his siluarion, pot ordinarily .1 he was consequ in _some quail therefore wishe interested were timents. He 1 tered shouid the Monarch al same time he s was consistent the count , y. House would a than he otherw not have done test important prciessed to be his Majesty's I fortunately tha Authority." cumstances un discussion. A for twelve mo Act had very tained in that felt, were net ling to the cha the passing of his Royal•Hii a manner as n the country, b man had sus' the Act passe,