Star. — London, England, 1813-02-24 00:00:00

i v 0 hd ,Icl' b. •Ivt ter ably is every thing Urged with tan apply to the general qt ea, thin Tibial beg -leave to read one of .its most impoonnt paragraphs.. Effete the Honourable Baronet read that passage which describ ed his Royal Highness as holding it to' be .a funda mental principle in the British Constitution, that the prerogatives of the Crown were vested in it, and-were o nly sacred when exercised.in trust and for the beneli o f the people; that nothing short of paramount neces. sity would therefore justify him to himself in suffering. an experiment tobe made in hisperson, with how small a powtion of power the Government could be carried on. The experiment, however, was made, and in a man ner not less disrespectful to the-Prince than injurious ei the country. It is to prevent future proceedings ef the same nature. to preserve the cfue balance of The Constitution, and ;lard against the assumption - by two branches of the Legislature of the functions told authorities of the whole, that I have brought this tb . ubject under the consideration of the House. So tontrary to the true theory of the constitution was the -exercise of the conjoint -power pf the three brunches of the Legislature, by one or both of the Houses, held in preceding times, that by a statute all the pe. nalties of a fernamaire - were incurred by any person who should maintain that such a power could be ever constitutionally assumed. lam far from consi dering, as I before said, that the miserable counter-., feit to which the two Houser had recourse was any apology for their conduct ; and if it be undeniable that certain great individuals are in the practice of placing their dependents in Parliament, it becomes still more important to adopt salutary and sufficient precaution against the schemes of faction or the ma chinations of designing Ministers. I do not expect to be told, when I express my opinion •that the Re gency ought to devolve on the Princess Charlotte, that she is not the proper person, or is not of suffi cient age. After the . atute of Henry VIII. no doubt can exist upon the latter point, and it is surely hetter,to frame a provision now, than to wait until it may come to be -done in a time cf anarchy--(Hear, kw.) Something may be said as to the possibility of the birth of another and more immediate heir, but in the unfortunate disunion which prevailed in the Royal Family, that event is very improbable. Un der these circumstances, the duty incumbent on the Legislature seems to me perfectly plain, and to con sist in affording -to the Public a security of uiiinter rupted and efficient Government on any dissolution of the present Regency . during the life of his Ma jesty. For, Sir, (continued the Hon;Bdronet) far from being an instrument, or wishing td' be such, in bringing forward 'the present motion; by which the desires of the malignant might be gratified in seeing the seeds of dissension sowed amon the Royal Fa, roily; far from any thing like this, can state to the ; House, that theproposnion which am now. about -to make has had the fullest meature. of approbation from the major part of the Members of the Royal Family. Wit possible, Sir, that any man can be blind to the vast danger arising from such a state of the Goiernment as would require that the two 'Houses "should prevent the Lord Chancellor to mis. -apply the Great Seal ? Who can say, wpen an evil arises to such a pitch as this, where it will stop ? Would it, forinstance, be a very violent transition from such a stretch of power as that to which Ihave itlluded, to go to the full extent of dispossessing the lawful heirs of the Crown of their inheritance ? Do , 1 speak, Sirinf a ohitneta.of a thing which it is im• possible should happen ? Sir, it has happened. The Great Seat of France was affixed - to the deed that de livered to an enemy the inheritance of that monarch's legitimate heir. But it is net the monarch's rights only that are at stake—the prerogative of the Crown is as much the property of the people as it is of the •sovereign, and they are equally interested in preserv ing it untouched and entire. Indeed, the danger ari sing to them was obvious. Wbat was mere to prevent the Great Seal in the recent state of the executive be ing affixed to acts of penalty and attainder ? Neither ohe Crown nor the People are sate while such a state -of tbiugs can recur; and -assuredly it does not require -multiplied• arguments to persuade those who value the Constitution to consent to any measute intended to guard against its recurrence, if any traces of those feelings remain in their breasts, under which they suffered at the period of difficulty and alarm to which I allude. My sole object in now addressing aLe House is the preservation of that 'Constitution , unimpaired, of which I have ever been the active, if, -not able defender. - I have therefore contented my-4 -self with a plain dry statement of my views, with-_', out adverting to any, extraneous topics, which, "if, such was my wish, I might have blended with thenop but it was by no means my desire to arouse any paroi ty-feelings, or in any way stimulate passions, which,; far , from leading to the accomplishment of what I had in view, would have rather,thwarted it.. My object is, to induce the House to embrace this opportunity of guarding against an evil of the most menacing and formidable aspect, and not to wait till necessity, like an armed man exulting in his power, and deaf to the voice of reason, shall rush upon them, bearing down all resistance, and forcing way where it is thought that sufficient barri.rs oppose its progress. Too anxi ously, Sir, no man can deprecate a repeated appari rition of that nppaling phantom to which the lints of our immortal Bard, in which be so admirably per sonifies the destroyer of all things, will so most hap; pily apply— 4 4 The other shape, " If shape it might be call's!, that shape bad none " Distinguishable in member, joint, or limb; u Or substance might be rall'd that shadow arced; For each seem'd either ----- " What serni'd his head " The likeness of a kingly crown had on Too anxiously, Sir, no one can deprecate that this phantom should never raise its engine of destruction, the. Great Seal, to strike as fatal a blow to the Con stitution, as that With which the dart of Milton's ter rible shade could check the life of mortals. Sir, it is only necessary to shew the danger with which the prerogative was threatened by this abominable re spondent to Ministerial incantations, to remind the House of the alarm it created ir. Royal bosoms.. It will be recollected, that all the Royal Dukes remon• . strated ou the occasion ; andit will also be recollect ed, that their remonstrance was treated with most unbecoming contempt—they were Called the College t't Princeiti s and various other witticisms, equally Pointed, were applied to them. And why ? because thLy endeavoured to protect the rights of that Crown in which they certainly have a greater interest than y other class of subjects. lam unable Sir, to an- Itc pate any argument by which the proposition I mean to *IAA t dig 14ottle a to.a be Numbly 6 P- Posed I • and • Title nbe s oecTupy the tithe - of she idottee Ells- Mort tpeotteeted defence- of Is—le rams not dubiii arguntenhnn noh ostwariunif—Yet t although my reasoning; . may be too plain, too simple, and ap p ea l too r orc ibl y to common setise to admit of 'heists( quelled by ingenditys the object of them is not slight. If that .be considered, my task has been of a Serious nature ) I have undertaken to rescue the prerogative from the state of pupillage into which it has been heretofore degraded. I shall conclude, Sir, with moving, dg That leave be given to bring in a Bill'to provide against itfterruption in the exercise cf the Royal Authority, in the event of the death of his Royal Highness, the Prince Regent dying during the continuance of his Majesty's ma lady." Lord COCHRANE seconded the motion of the Hon Baronet. :Gld bp ol ddet imortin the tens slob Where- co it *V ettioh might be now s ettle with the utmost temperance,— te k t, tht con cittsign of this speech, there were lottd etifs of ** i2gettiort, gentien Pi end the Gal lery V/2, pertly bleated for a, division.] • Mr. PONSONBY then tose, and said, that asi thoUgh 'the question might have come better from the ministers of the Crown. yet as the Honourable Baronet had thought proper to bring it forward to the consideration• of the Hotise, he wished, be fore he gave his vote in favour of the motion, to explain, in a Ivey few weird:, the reason of his vote. He allowed that such measures as this whin .was proposed, shoold generally proceed from the' Government ; but there might be cases, where, if Parliament was moved to theectiasideration of them. it was fully competent to them to determine them, even although Government might be unwilling to in vite their attention to the subject. As to the con-, tingency itself, it did not appear to him as improbable as it seemed to some other Gentlemen ; for all knew, that although his Majesty was afflicted with a severe mental malady which made him incapable of exer cising the functions of Royalty, yet that he enjoyed as sound health as any man of his age, and there was a great probability of his living for many.years. If that was the case, there only stood one life between us and all ate difficulties which had been experienced 'on two former occasons. Suppose that event to take place, he thought that it would be too much for any individual to expect, that his arguments would be able to induce Parliament to act differently from the mode they had adopted on the two former occasions. He sapposed, that in such a case, Parliament would act according to the precedents then laid down. The proposition of the Hon. Baronet, which was now un der their consideration, was not for determining the quantity of power which was to be given to a future Regent, nor, fur declaring who should be the Regent : it was merely a motion for leave to bt ing in Bill to provide against any interruption of the Royal Authority, in the case of the contingency taking place which was stated. Now it appears to him, that ilthis motion was granted, 'and the Bill brought 1, Parliament would have it in its power, without de- ; parting from the principles established in the former instances, to make such provisions as would (should the case occur) remove a great deal of the difficul ties which were experienced in the former instances, and enable the Government to put itself into activity in a much shorter time. As he thought that this good might arise from all Owing the Honourable . Ba ronet en bring in his Bill, he should r - ae in favour of the motion. Lord CASTLEREAGH trustedahat he should Ise able to shew the House, that there was not a suf ficient necessity to induce the prudence of the Hattie to agree to the motion before them. He allowed that the Hon. Baronet (Sir Francis Burdett) had brought the subject forward with great candour and fairness. The Hon. Baronet, however, who had been induced by his constitutional view of the subject to bring for ward the present motion, appeared to him to be more anxious to destroy the authority of the Parliamentary , proceedings in the tw g p former instances, than to pro vide for the contingency he had stated. He ap peared to think it of the greatest importance, to re but and subvert all the principles which they had laid down upon this subject ; and to get rid of what he considered a pernicious precedent. Fur his part, he had a view of the subject directly opposite.— He thought that it was a great benefit, and a blessing to the country, that the great constitu. tional difficulties which attended this subject had been removed, and the point settled on thifullest discussion, which was after wards revised upon the late occasion ;—and in which the greatest legal ; and constitutional learning had been displayed.-'- -lie considered that those precedents would be a great protection to the country hereafter, from simi lar difficulties. He allowed that Parliament had a right to enter into such Considerations without a mes sage from thg Crown ; but it was always for their prudence to consider, whether they should expose themselves to, a conflict with the Crown upon the looint4 In any thing respecting money, all conflict with the Crown was pievented by the necessity of the Crown proposing, or previously - consenting to the I grant. In common legislative measures this was not necessary ; but it was obvjons that there was no de scription of questions more likely to involve the House 'in a conflict with the Crown, than a question which touched the Crown so nearly. The contingepcy which was mentioned, appeared to him to be so very remote a one, that he thought the Hon. Baronet, upon his own principles, should rather have proposed a permanent Regency . Bill, applicable to all cases, Than confine himself to this particular contingency. It appeared to him, however, that what the Hon. Baronet wanted, was to destroy the discretionary power of Parliament upon the subject ; and that he preferred the question being determined on the heredi . . . Mr. B. BATHURST having expressed his appro bation of the mild and temperate manner in which the Hon. Baronet had submitted his proposition to the House, said, that he must reluctantly dissent from him in opinion as to its expediency. It was, in his apprehension, altogether uncalled for; ard that being the case, he would oppose it. Ahd indeed, notwithstanding the care which the Honourable Ba ronet had so properly taken to exclude from his speech all extraneous topics, he feared that no discussion could take place without many being therein invol-' ved, which, it was -obvious, he , himself could not wish to have stirred. But the Honourable Baronet had himself intimated a doubt, whether the Heir Apparent had not a right to succeed to the functions, the fixing of which was the object of his motion, without any interference of Parliament. Now, if such was the case, he had thrown out a question gra tuitously for the House to discuss, at a period when business of importance occupied its attention, and of course he'could not expect that much attention would be paid to Iris proposition. .He conceived that the House could not properly enter into any discussion on such a subject, without being called on from the Throne to do so ; and when this consideration was combined with the delicate nature of the subject, and the great difficulties it involved, he could not for a moment suppose that the House would hesitate 'to eject the motion. . Mr. BRAND was desirous of stating his reasons for supporting the motio4 of the Honourable Baro vt ; but in doing so, he would carefully avoid the' Introduction of extraneous matter. He would refrain from all allusion to those circumstances whi at present form the subject of general conversation; nor would he say any thing as to the party views which had been displayed, as was alleged, in the for mer discussions on this subject. The Right Hon. Gentleman had assigned as his reasons for opposing . the motion : Ist, that it did not come recommended by the Crown"; 2d, that there was no necessity for it; and that the House ought to await the arrival of ' a case of necessity before they agitated the question. On these points he differed entirely from the Right Honourable Gentleman ; for he could not believe that it was essentially necessary to have the recom mendation of the Crown before discussing a question of such vital importance both to the Crown and the community ; and he could see but very little wisd• indeed in waiting•the arrival or a case of necessity, and taking measures on the spur of the 'case, instead of providing for the case upon previous mature deli beration. The Right Honourable Gentleman had stated, that there was no necessity for bringing for ward the question at this time. In his opinion, it was a point of great magnitude, and commanding necessity. What must be the feelings of the person who was to exercise the royal authority ? what must be the feelings of every one-who felt an anxiety that the Crown should be supported in its dignity, in louk ing at the contests of rival parties tearing the powers of the office in pieces ? These matters ought to be prOvided for by-digested plans, to prevent the recur rence of such disgraceful scenes as they had on for mer occasions witnessed. Such contentions of fac tions—such restrictions on the royal authority—such violations of the Constitution—in holding out to the people that the powers of the Crown were not neces sary in their full extent for the Government of the ' country. Something ought to be done, without de lay, to put an end t 6 such occurrences. It was now more necessary than it might be in oilier times. There was only one life between us and the recur rence of the difficulty; and under such circumstances 'the Bill ought undoubtedly to be received, and the remedy proposed by the Honourable 13aronct, or some other remedy, ought to be adopted. It might, per haps, be urged, that this would lead to discussions in regard to some other unfortunate circumstances. connected with the Royal Family I but legislation ' ought not to be impeded merely because such discus sions might be introduced. He hoped, however, the House would have -too much delicacy, and too strong la sense of propriety to introduce such discussions without the most unavoidable necessity.—( Hear, hear.)—Upon the whole, the Right Honourable Gen tleman had stated no good reasoq against the pro posed measure, and the motion should have his cor dial support. Lord A. HAMILTON* likewise supported the motion, which the present circumstances rendered not only proper, but necessary. It must be recollected, that in 1801 circumstances did arise which made it more than suspicious that publicity was not given to the real circumstances'of his Majesty's indisposition, and .that Ministers did then contrive sonic way or other to exercise the royal authority, at a time that his Majesty's state of health rendered him quite in competent to the discharge of the functions of royalty. Mr. C. W. WYNNE agreed with the Hon. Gen tleman, that if a message should come down from the Crown, for the purpose of settling the question of Regency in future, it would be the most regular and graceful way for Parliament to proceed upon - the sub ject. At the same time it must be recollected, that Parliament had at different times proceeded to alter the succession of the Crown, and sometimes without any message. Those great men who passed the cele brated Exclusion Bill, did not wait for a message. from the Crown upon the subject. It was most clearly within the power of Parliament to originate the ques tion themselves. It was said that there was no great probability of the contingency arriving : in that case, it appeared to him that the subject might be discussed without any irritation, and without any revival of these angry feelings which had been so much depre cated, but drily, as a simple constitutional question. U the contingency should really happen, then there the benefit of his eguteept, tad tepresidted 3f bike. What had been the state of the mantra! since llBsa .iaternseqtente of what he conceived to be the dila tory and improper conduct of the Legislature, in not kproviding against contingencies of this nature? and yet the Honourable Baronet's proposition evaded not to bind the Legislature to any particular measure, but to leave to subject freely open to discussing and i dea liberate arrangement. In 1788, his Majesty *as afßicted with a malady which continued so long that a Regency Bill passed the House of Common; and was in progress through the Upper House. Many were then of opinion that some distincP proceeding should'be adopted ; but the, delicacy of the Royal advisers restrained them from advisi ig his Ma . jesty to send a message down to Parliament on the sunject. In 1504, his Majesty had a relapse of his indisposi. tion. On that occasion, Ministers thought proper, the King being in a state in which privat e persons would not be permitted to manage their private affairs, to carry on (the Noble Lord being one and the Lord Chancellor another of those Ministers ) the business of I.Government under the mask of the Royal authority. In 1810, his Majesty became ag.tin afflicted. *l'lle ' House recollected the angry discussions that had • taken place in Parliament. The House recollected that the Prince of %Vales thought that the LAI/cony with which he had been treated by the servants of the Crown, equal to that which he had experienced in 1788. Hopes were, from time to time, held out .of the recovery of his Majesty. In the mean time, the Executive Authority remained in abey ince s and in the subsequent discussions the greatest inconve nience was sustained in consequence of no kind of provision having been made on the subject after the - occurrences of 1788. In 1811 he had taken the liberty to bring these circumstances under the consi deration of the House. He had stated what he eon• ceived to have been remissness on the part of the ser vants of the Crown, and had, proposed the appoint ment of a committee to provideagaiust the recurrence of such serious inconveniences. The House had thought proper to negative drat proposition. Frent that day no proceedusg wha:ever had been adopted. i This, however, appeared to be the precise moment for some Parliamentary arrangement on the subject; for party hca:s were so allayed, that there would be no danger of reviving those animoluies to which f ir -1 mer discussions had given birth. Of this, the tem. Aerate tone of the debate of that evening afforded a , practical proof. Unquestionably the death of the Regent before that of his Majesty was not a very probable'event. But that it was a very possible event, every day's experience in common life gave ample evidence. If oath an event should occur, in what a ' tuation would the country be placed ? Princess Char lotte was competently qualified Both by age and by talents to assume the royal authority; and yet Parlia ment must go through certain forms before they could confer on her that which unquestionably they would confer on her—the unrestricted Regency ; for the restrictions. originally imposed on the, Regent were imposed only in the contemplation of an event now hopeless—the recovery of his Majesty. On these grounds lie felt the utmost satisfaction in supporting the mction of the Honourable Baronet, persuaded as he was that he could not better fulfil his duty than by so doing. Sir FRANCIS BURDETT replied to the mi. ous arguments that had been urged against them°- , don. He expressed the pleasure which he had expo ' rienced at hearing none of the great doctrines of the i law, none of the great principles of the Constitution ion which he had insisted in the speech with which he . opened the discussion, controverted or denied. He ' acknowledged also the fairness and manliness of ; ' meeting his motion by a direct negative, rather • th an getting rid ofieby the previous question.' It so hap , pened that no great stress had been laid on any of the ;objections to his motion which he hid anticipated.-e- The Right Hon. Secretary of State had not subver ted one of the propositions which he had advanced. All that the Right Hon. Gentlemen had contended , ! amounted to this, that a sufficient fur the day was the evil thereof." He was still convinced, that there was much less danger (as,history sufficiently evinced) in establishing the course to be taken by a previous proceeding of Parliament than on leaving it to sub. sequent discretion. This, in his opinion, woultebe i, the best way to maintain the genuine principles lof the Constitution. He felt himself wholly excul i 'sated from the charge of not waiting until the concurrence of die Crown in such a proposition shoidd ' be intimated. On various occasions he had attempted to draw the attention of Government to the sub ject. He had in vain tried every avenue to Wing it under their consideration. He did not, there fore, considcr that his conduct on the present occa. sion was improper or presumptuous. The Noble Lord who had spoken with such great fluency and eloquence, had chosen to say that he (Sir F. Burdett) preferred hereditary principle to a Parliamentary •of proceeding, Bat that to • the Noble . tary principle s than by the discretion of Parliament. ' COM 46 O . * wiiic t h In determining upon which principle the question " . Lord alluded was not Parliament. How, could it be should be decided, there was certainly a balance of , so called when the Executhe authority, was in abet'. inconveniencies. But the reason why it was better : ance ?He could not consent to leave .the country to that it should rest in the discretion of Parliament, :the danger of being again placed in .a situation in was; that Parliament felt it its first duty to take care ! which the Minister of the day mutt take on himself that the Rbyal Power should be restored undiminished i all the functions of Ro y alt y . A g ainst this he wo u l d into the hands to which it legitimately belonged, as 'provide by an Act of Parliament, legally enacted; soon as the Sovereign was again capable of exercising and to which legality the concurrent consent of the three branches of the Legislature was Indispensable. his royal functions: whereas, upon the hereditary ' As to the nature of; the contingency, that was no principle, the Royal Power being fully and imme: l diately transferred to the Regent, t h ere was not t h e ground on which his motion could be rationally op. same security for she resumption of it by the Sove- po,ed. No common man would, however, choose reign, when the temporary cause which suspended his to risk his affairs on such a contingency. But that le personal exercise of it was removed. He conceived, was not the question. The simp question was, that the contingency was not sufficiently probable to Whether by Act of Parliament the principle of the justify Parliament, in the exercise of its prudence and Constitution which involved in it the hereditary de. discretion, in adopting the proposition of the Hon. scent of the Crown should be established/ This was Baronet. I a principle not to be constrained ornautilated. And et the two Houses of Parliam.nt had several times Mr. WHITBREAD declared that he should be y sorry to allow the question to go to a vote, without : assumed the exercise of the Royal Authority. -He saying akw words upon it. On the former discus . ' bad alwa y s been tau g ht to believe, that the p reserve. sions relative to the Regency, a party in that House , don of the prerogatives of the Crown was essential to contended, that the proper rno.'e of proceeding would the public. benefit. It tine exercise of these pi erogs. be to address the Heir Apparent, to take the Execu. i tives, however, could b.. suspend.Nl at one time, there • ltive Authority into his own hands. Parliament, how- . was no reason why they could npt be suspended at al ever, decided, that the Regei cy should be consti. times. For his part he was at a toss to conceive ft.. , " a greater good could be done to the country, than by toted by Bill. Now, what was the pa , position or the Honourable Baronet? Not that, in the event of the determining this impt•rt ant Stlb*t at a period like death of the Regent, the Regency Ahould devolve the pre.eni, when it did nut appear possible that fee. 'on Princess Charlotte ' but that a Bill should be in. jugs of heat a nd animo s it y w o ul d be i ntt o dnced into troduced, to enable Parliament to provide for an the discussion.—The House then divided—For the event, the contingency of which was not very great, Motion 73—Against it ,238—M ilia) , leis. aldiongh it was not to snail nit the Noble Lord, for ttie House then adjourned, at halt past cloven.