Star. — London, England, 1812-02-14 00:00:00

net flag that . nhlr drjt this fro 'tint riVk pro, , 1e44 this c se her h be I be TZ AIM and that he Vas intca'faert by Lordship, 4014 t tissions which might still be istottglat to a fateurable no doubt of the fact, that * Winister would soon . be , Issue, and which could h ar dl y b e expected if these sent but to Anserica. If that letter, therefore, wits Shatters Were publicly discussed in that Honse. Its not formally answered, it was because the informs= was extremely desirous to believe that the final issue don sought for by Mr. Pinckney hid been conununi- might be different from what appeared to thd present sated in another manner. The ground upon which state of things, and therefore he did not feethimitelt . Mr. Pinckney spettifically demanded his passports at liberty to go freely into such a discussion until the lea4' that no Minister had been sent our to America, , final determination. There were many points in the according to promise. He was informed at the time, conduct of America which he could not now charae that the only reason why a Minister had not been cerise by those epithets that he would conceive him sent out sooner, was the situation in which the Go- self justified in using, if an amicable settlement of vernment found itself for the two months in conse- those points became impotsible. An Hon. Gentle quence of his Maiestek:illness. He would much man (Mr. Curwen) had more than once in the rather that the Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Whit- course of his speech, expressed a hope that his Ma bread) had gone into an argument on the justice and jesty's present Ministers were not likely long to hold policy of the measures pursued with respect to Ames that situation (Hear, hear ! ) Whatever golden rica, than that he should have stated generally as he I dreams might be indulged on this subject, he must had done, that those measures were unjust and im- say, that as f ar as h e k new any th i ng about the mat politic. He believed the Honourable Gentleman did ter, he rather imagined that the Hon. Gentleman not mean to deny the principle that we had a right would find, that his consolatory prospects would not of retaliation against France, for all those evils which I open upon him quite so pleasantly as he had ima her injustice to neutral nations and neutral commerce gined—(Hear, hear.) But if that system, which the should bring upon this country. .At least, this prin- I Hon. Gentleman so strongly recommended, were to ciple was not first promulgated by those who are be a system dictated to the Government of this country now his Majesty's Ministers : it had been distinctly to pursue; then indeed he should feel happy to quit hls and authoritatively declared, before they came into present situation, and not to form a part of any Ad office, by the Gentlemen who now sat on the other ministration which should pursue a course so hostile, side. The first of those measures was the blockade as he conceived, to the true interests of the country. Of 1806, which was imposed by Mr. Fox, and which I Mr. BASTARD said, that when he read the re was. at that time loudly complained of both by I solutions passed in America, he wished that resolu- France and America. The authors of the Order in tions of a contrary nature should be passed to meet Council for the blockade of 1807 only acted upon them. The American Government had in fact de the "principle which had been strongly, and, as they clued, that they would go to war with this country conceived, properly laid down by their predecessors, as ‘soon as they were prepared. He thought that and followed, in this respect, their example. He such resolutions might fairly be met by a declaration thought the Gentlemen who supported the original of war upon our part. measure in 1806, ought not now to be the persons to Mr. HERBERT thought that war with America raise their voice against the justice and the policy of ought to be avoided as much as possible. He had the measures since pursued. He should be at all great doubts whether we were right in the present times ready to maintain, that they were consistent quarrel. As to what had been so much talked of-- with justice and policy, and with the relation Which I our maritime rights—he believed that much of what States bear to each other, in the extraordinary cir- was claimed as maritime rights, was somewhat curnstances in which the world is piked at the pre- doubtful. It app eare d now , t h at we were to main sent moment. When the Honourabk Gentleman tain those rights as they were called, against almost talked of mercantile distress, and attributed it all to all Europe. He hoped that those rights which were the Orders in Council, he must positively deny that to be maintained against so formidable a force, would it was occasioned by those measures : on the con- be just and clear beyond dispute. trary, it was owing to them th a t t h e di stress was not Mr. BARING slid, that notwithstanding the mo much greater. It was to what was called the Con- deration expressed by the tone and manner of the tinental System that this mercantile distress was ow- Right Hon. Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Ex ing ; and this system had been much controuled and chequer), still he felt perfectly confident, from the checked in its progress by the Orders in Council.— state of the discussions between the two countries, As the Hon. Gentleman has professed not now to and from the prevailing feeling in this country, that enter into the argument of the justice and policy of it was hardly possible that war could be avoided. If those measures, he should also content himself with it was carried on in the spirit and tone expressed by just glancing, as he had done, at the reasons which an Hon. and Learned Gentleman (Mr. Stephen), he made him consider them neither unjust nor impolitic. augured most serious mischief's from it. As to the fecl- He deprecated hostilities with America (if they could ingot this country, it was at least as strong against Ame be avoided) as much as any man, for be agreed with rica in the time of the last American war. He pray the Hon. Gentleman in believing that the true pros- ed to GOD that the termination of the war which he perlty of America would produce the prosperity of now anticipated might not be as fatal as that of' the Britain ; and that there were much greater advan- last war. If we were not then able to conquer them, taxes to be derived from the wealth of America, in a what could we now do against them, when their po friendly commerce, than could be expected by pro- pulation and resources had, at least, trebled since `Yoking her to war. Under these impressions, he that period ? Whenever the Orders in Council had ' thought that peace should be maintained and pre- been the subject of discUssion in that House, their served as long as it could be preserved without aban- authors had always admitted that America had just, cloning those maritime rights which this country bad grounds of complaint against these orders, and that I always claimed and exercised. But althou g h h e saw neutra l s must greatly suffer from their effects. But !great evil in a war with America, yet he could not then it was contended, that their operation was di. ' conceive it an evil of so great a magnitude as it ap- rected against France ; and pledges were given, that peered to the Hon. Gentleman, "who looked to it as whenever the enemy should repeal his decrees, this,' I likely to produce the ruin of the British Empire.— country would proceed /sari tarru in rescinding the No one circumstance would be•found in all the pa- Orders in Council. The question therefore was, whe-' pers between America and France, which slimed then Ministers had fulfilled these engagements; and the least intention of diminishing in any manner the whether France had made such a repeal of her de real effect of the Berlin and Milan Decrees. The crees as should call on us to proceed with similar steps Continental System was to be preserved in all its in as far as respected America. We never, surely, • force, and there was not to be the slightest relaxa- could mean to call upon America to resist that part tion, in favour of this country, of a single point of of the French decrees which related to the interdica it, even if it should consent to abandon the Orders in tion of our trade with those pasts of the Continent' Council. He would refer the Honourable Gentle- over which Fiance exercised authority. As far as I man to a letter which was then in his hand, from the jargon of these decrees could be understood, ave• Mons. Tureau, the French Minister to the American could only mean to invite America to resist such Government. In this letter the French Minister told parts of the Berlin and Milan decrees as affected to America, " that it was to be clearly understood, that proscribe the commerce between this country and France could not consent to alter that system of ‘ es- America. Now, he had read with attention the elusion adopted by all Europe against the commerce whole of the voluminous correspondence, the pro iof Great Britain ; the wisdom and policy of which duction of which was moved for by his Hsn. Friend; system was already developed in its effects upon the and the impression which the perusal left upon his common enemy." It then appeared, that if America mind, was, that France had repealed that part of were to release herself from the operation of our Or- her decrees which interfered with the commerce of ders in Council, she was to be consenting to and as- America with this country ; and that, therefore, Sluing in the plan for the complete exclusion of our America was entitled to be relieved from the pres manufactures and colonial produce from every part sure of our Orders in Council as far as they affected of the Continent of Europe. This being the case, her interests. Could it possibly be meant by Mini he would wish to know upon what principle any ma- sters, that America either could interfere with effect, nufacturei sor merchants in this country could expect or ought to interfere for the purpose of resisting the to be much benefited by the repeal of the Orders in continental blockade, as it affected this country ? Council ? If our Orders were called anti-commercial As well might she demand the restoration of the and anti-neutral, *hat name was to be gives to the po- Bourbons to the throne of France. He should be licy of France ? It was her anti-neutral policy to en- glad to hear from Ministers in what respect the gulph in her own power and dominion all neutral French decrees were not, to all intents and purposes, rowers which she was able to attack. In this anti- repealed as they respected the Americans. A regu neutral spirit Hamburgh was deprived of its inde- lar notification of this repeal had been communicated pendence, merely because France declared that this from the French 'Minister for Foreign Affairs to the was a means of destroying British trade and taking American Government, accompanied certainly with British ships. What neutral was ever safe that the this proviso, that this relinquishment did not affect woes of France could reach ? It was then a question or alter the continental system which France had abet - a d o pted,-called.loudly for an alteration, t•t. !Id e a of the consideration of jaittice. He would h e ther a great Statesmar, who had once given L' op inion in lavottr of the Orders in Council, nad ',stated his conviction that they ought t o b e i t: twi i? America had a right to carry her own whereter she chose.—a right which had al econsidered as belonging to every nation. arlr the t ag' the greatest satisfaetion, however, in the pro. that with whatever pertinacity the commencers system persevered in it, they would not be sough in their places to carry it much farther. MI bear, from Mr. Perceval.) He said this not : r all y personal dislike of the Right Hon. Gentle ,hut purely from a conviction, that his measures WI be ruinous to the country. A change of men o b{signify little, without a change of policy ; and foe c ountry were to perish, he had rather it sould i n the hands of the commencers of the system, 'pip die bands of these who had disapproved of it. *mold not but lament the thinness of the amen. i s - c e w hen a question of so much importance was o w agitation. One of the worst symptoms of the ow was a want of feeling for the public interests. *note d they should not be called upon to decide , i s q uestion without the requisite information. Next ; o w subject of Ireland, this wis, of all others, the ot important. If the Right Hon. Gentleman per. o wed in denying the production of these papers, we would of itself be evidence of a hostile feeling to. w eds America (Hear, hear, from Mr. Perceval).— iaelfirmed, that it was a proof that Ministers were ,paid to meet the discussion fairly. He concluded bf el pressineis strong conviction of the danger and 0 1 44 of a war with America, and his wishes that, 11 t i m ely precaution, it might still be averted. The CHANCELLOR. of the EXCHEQUER mold not pretend to say what conclusions the Ho wurable Gentleman (Mr. Curwen) might draw in his own mind, or what he might be disposed to argue ; but be was convinced that his conclusion was wrong, jibe supposed that the refusal of the papers moved be could only proceed from a spirit of hostility to Jamie% On the contrary, if he now wished to w ithhold those papers from the Honourable Gentle man, it was merely to avoid quarrelling with Ame rica, if it were possible to avoid it.. The object of ; moving those papers was to have a discussion on ; them when granted ; and it appeared to him that any parliamentary discussion which could now take pi a m mon the subject, must necessarily tend to in., mote rather than allay the irritation on the one side a the other. He agreed with the Honourable Gen-1 Heroes (Mr. Whitbread) in Considering the subject as one of extreme importance end interest. It was, soleartr, a subject of great importance to uF, whe sbn.k was this country that should be forced into a war (if war could not be avoided') by America, or whether the war should proceed from any misconduct at the part of the British Government. He most, however, always maintain, that as to the spirit of coonliation always professed in the diplomatical cor sespondence between the , two countries, it was most inure upon our part. The Government was alive to all the advantages of reconciliation with America ; ' but still they felt it their imperious duty not to abut- ' ilon'those maritime Tiers which this country had ever maintained, and which,' if onn, relinquished, jrould leave the country but lit& anion . i ti.eute up. ' He telt, that the question had been narrowed very mach by ihellonourable Gentleman having declined eciargye it on the grounds of the policy and justice 011ie Orders in Council. Those points lie had pro fessed a wish to discuss on a - futuroday, when the mo.! %En of which an Honourable and Learned Friend of ; bits Mr. Brougham) should be brought forward. He u _eoold not but say, t h a t h e felt sorry, that since the lioaourable Gentleman himself did not think this a ! proper time to go into the question of the justice and policy of the Orders of Council, he- had not hesitated to pronounce his opinion of their It,. liutice and impolicy. He could not but regret to , me the Gentlemen who usually sat on the other ode of the House had so little hesitation in giving an opinion against the cause of their country.-1 hear.)—They should recollect, that th e , missieneere—to borrow a phrase from the Honourable I Gentleman (Mr. Curwen)— o f t hi s s y ste t n , were not those who were now his Majesty's Ministers. It was from the Gentlemen on the other side.that this sys lem commenced ; and if they had steadily Maintain rd their own principles there would be now much less of that opinion in America of the injustice of the **duct of Great Britain. It was, indeed, very na. Ital . * the Americans, when they read the speeches' 'Chiding Members in our Parliament charging the I Povernmentsif this country with injustice, to sup- Pose that there must be injustice. The Honourable Geadema n was much misinformed, if he thought Mot his Majesty's present Ministers were the original *oboes of those measures, and that they therefore found it necessary to confirm them by their present Proceedings. The Honourable Gentleman had found pear fault with Lord Wellesley for not going into a detail of what principles Of blockade our Govern teat was ready to ab a nd on , i n or d er to p urc h ase o f trance the revocation of the &ilia ,and Milan De crees- The first letter which he alluded to, of the 80th of April, was Written prec i se ly and entirely for the' _ _ .. The purpo se o f as ki ng L or d - Wellesley that question. whether we were not entitled to c a ll upon - neutral adopted. What th en cou ld A mer i ca do i ' Her Go i Ate American Minister, however, must have been nations to ass er t an d ma i nta i n th e i r rights, and not vernment could not say to Fiance, you are not to be sell aware at that time, that if 'there *as any one to suffer themselves to be made passive instruments believed, even after all the declarations you have question more than another which-our Government in the hands o f F rance , to secon d h er hostile designs made. But there was this additional proof of their mss detttmi ne d not to ;n i x tip p i t h t h e quest i on o f against this country. If the French Government have revocation as a ff ect i ng A mer i ca, t h at there had since the Orde rs i n C ounc il , i t ' was precisely th i s quest i on resolved to turn trade into a sword, and commerce b een no one i nstance of these decrees having been Abe* blo c k a d es. It could hardly be supposed, that into measures'of hostility, against us, and if neutral acted on.—Hear, hear, f rom the Treasury Bench.—Of , .tie would give an answer to France, how much of 1 nations will lend their hands to sharpen this instru- this at least he was certain, that Mr. Foster was call- • I tet tights of bl oc k a d e we were rea d y to surren d er , i n wrest, intended for our ,destruction, they have no ed upon by the American Minister to poi nt out a , %. 11 'iler t 3 pu rc h ase f or t h e A mer i cans a revocat i on o f great right to complain, even although they may / sin g l e i nstance o f the sort; and his silence a ff or d e d Berlin and Mil an D ecrees . A s to t h e corre sp o n- .suffer somethingby the operation of the Orders in : a stron g con fi rmat i on t h at no such instance was tube 'ante be tween M r. Pinckney and Lord Wellesley, !!'l if • Council. It was not his wish to enter into a discus- found. Th e Right Hon. Gen t l eman h a d b roa dl y Honourable Gentlem a n, upon reading it, could i , sion now of those points, for which the Hon. Gentle- declared, that he w ou ld l ong rema i n i n power, and the . discover not hi ng b ut what Was conc i l i atory i n the '• man wished those papers to be produced—and he i that he had not g i ven t h e sma ll est hint of concession; tors of Mr. P inc k ney , en d not hi ng b ut w h at was should vote against the production of them, because :there was every re ason to f ear , therefore, that a war let thiconeiliatary on the part of Lord Wellesley, he i he thought t h at mi n i st , rs ought not to consent to l a y with America would speedily ensue, if, indeed, even 'could not account for such a eGnstruction of the cor- I a foundation for a d iscuss i on w hi c h, i n t h e i r o pi n ion, at present we could be said to be at peace with her.— respondence upon any other principle than the partia- i might do harm at the present moment, and could be The Honourable Member then proceeded to contend ? productive of no gond. The Hon, Gentleman seeed that the system introdluced by the Orders in Council !'h!'h which t h e H on . Me m b er h a d avowe d f or A mer i ca . m Nov, as the letter which was sa id sotto n ave been to think, that the correspondence between the twd . was in itself an e v il, e ven l eav i ng out of view the im to :xasivered, t!le subj ec t of that letter was the recall of countries w e r e now fi na lly c l ose d, an d that, there- minent danger of their, involving us in the calamitous 1 kr. Jackson, an d t h e appo i ntment o f anot h er Mi- ; fore, there could be no danger in their production. contest with Am er i ca . N ot hi ng could more surprise sister in Ms pl ace . M r . Pinckner himself, in i He , fur his part , ho p ed that the correspondence was him than to hear the Hon. and L earne d G ent l eman Vs cattiponCnce with the Americaptovernment, '; not finally closed ; and while a hope of that sort re- opposite (Mr. Stephen) talk so loudly of , E tated, that after w r i t i ng t h at l etter he - had had many' mained, however slight, he would wish to cherish it, merce being p rostrate b e f ore these Orders were ''‘essounication s w i t h L or d W e ll es l ey on t h e su bj ec t, ' and do nothing which could increase irritation. He ted ; and asserting that they had produced sod repeated opportunities of personal intercoursein these dis- c OA . belie ; thought it possible that there were points 9ll4Etler , prosperity. He could hardly 4- 1 possible that any Min should be si. uttgrit ignaritat lof the state of our trade— , 4o utterly enaccluarnteX with all that *at going on around Mai; as 10 brieg forward such an assertion. (Hear, hear.) The num ber of bankruptcift every day taking place—the , trovrds of starving manufacturers in air towns—the circumstance of whole regiments being necessary to keep the peace in one of our great manufacturing districts—and the petitions sent up from the potteries. from Sheffield, and Liverpool, all proved the nista mitous effects of the Orders in Council oft the Om metce of the country. It Was natural hoivever, for the Learned Gentleman to be enamoured of a sysa tern, to which his own writings had so greatly ennui: buted. The Orders in Council, besides their other pernicious effects, had lost us, it could not be denied, one important branch of trade—that with Amerithe itself. The Hon. Member then proceeded to observe on the Order in Council of the 7th January, 1806, which went to prohibit the Americans front carrying on the coasting trade of the enemy. This measure he thought perfectly injustifiable ; he would not give up the coasting-trade ; and any discussion which might have arisen with the Ati - mrican Government on that subject, could never hate produced any hostile feeliags. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman oppo site had talked in very lenposing language of the im portance of prescrvint our maritime rights ; but he did not see how they were connected with the Orders in Council. In the correspondence between Mr. Fos ter and the American Government, the former had expressly admitted that the blockade of 1806 would not be again enforced, unless it was thought proper to maintain it by a suffitieht naval force. The timeric.aritecretary seemed to receive this intimation with great satisfaction ; so that it really appeared that the sole grounit 4 difference between the two Governments lay in the Orders in Council. He trusted, therefore, that when the Hon. Gentlemen. again .used that high and inflammatory language as to the maintenance of our maritime rights, he would explain himself a little more particularly, and thew whare they were threatened or endangered. Mr. STEPHEN, in explanation, denied that he had represented the trade of this country as in a flou rishing state. He had merely reminded the Mouse s that it had appeared from a mass of evidence, that prior to the Orders in Council the trade of the coun try was pros:rate, and that it was raised by these Or ders to the most flourishing situation it had ever ex perienced. The causes of the present commercial distresses were very different. Mr. WILBERFORCE conceived, that the argu ment of his Right Hon. Friend that the production of the papers in question would be extremely incon venient while negocation was still depending, was en titled to considerable weight; for it was impossible to disconnect the papers already printed, and in the hands of the public, with those documents which might be at present interchanging between the two Governments, and which, might be of the greatest importance in the depending discussions. Reposing a high, degree of confidence in his Right Hon. Friend on most subjects, he was not disposed to deny him - that confidence at present, particularly asthegrounds on which he had asked it, appeared to him to be cif. ficiently strong. He could not help expressing his surprise, however, that the Honourable Gentleman who preceded him, had thought proper to enter at so much length into the merits of the question at issue between this country and America. Had chit Honourable Gentleman preceded his Honourable and Le erred Friend, the natural consequence must have been, that it would have called forth a long and ela borate argument ; all the particulars of this contro versy must have been discussed; angry feelings would have been called forth on both sides, and the general result of the whole debate would have had an un friendly aspect towards accommodation with Ame lake. On one side, the conduct of the American Goa vernment would have been called in question, per haps represented in aggravated colours ; while on the other, a very different language would have been adopted, and the natural area) of the whole would have been to place conciliation at a still greater die. tan ce. He would fi ankly confess, that in his opinion,this country had not been sufficiently attentive to the con ciliation of America. Indeed, generally speaking. he had often thought it would have been much for the interest of this country, had the persons who filled the high situations of the State been a little more abundant in their attentions to the Envoys of Foreign Powers, and particularly to the Ambassadors of Ame -4 flea ; because that Power was naturally apt to be jea lous, lest she should not receive the same attentions 'as those that were paid to older States. (Hear.) He could wish the persons to whom he now alluded, only to reflect how much the happiness of milliont de pended on their conduct, and hovegreatly incumbent upon them it was to sacrifice their own ease on occa sions where so much was at stake. Mr. THORNTONthought that to interfere with the negotiation would be to blame Ministers, and he was not prepared for such a step. The policy of the Orders in Council was shortly to be discussed ; and he would not, by his vote, prejudge that question. The Honourable Mr. HUTCHINSON said, that he differed totally from the Honourable Member for Yorkshire, in . givi his con fi dence to the Minis ter. So f a r , i nde ed, he from placing confidence in the Minister, that, not to speak of a measure of such vital importance as that of peace or :ear, he was not disposed to place the slightest reliance on him even in the most trivial matters. He thought it right to take the business of America out of his hands if possible, and to leave it to the wisdom of the House, which might be more likely to avert the calitnity of war than he, who was not only against conciliation with America, but against conciliation with a great portion of our own empire. The Member for Car lisle had expressed a hope, that other men would soon succeed to those stations, in which the Right Hon. Gentleman and his colleagues had shewn them'elves so incapable: but what was the. Right Hon. Gertle man's reply to this honest hope ? He told the House (and it ought to go forth to the country). t h at wh at . ever golden dreams that Honourable Member in dulged in, might be disappointed ; he, in fact, told the House, and not equivocally, that he was to be the future Minister of England. How the Ri g h t -H on . Gentleman could possibly think the - more surprifiC Gentleman could posaily thick of ficing an indig. d Gentleman nant country at the commencement of a new era, rof our corn- such as the present awful period WAS, he could not rs were adoe- imagiulr ; but of one thing he :vas certain, dr ir, it the oduced great Minister and his colleagues, or any other patched Ad- ,lly believe, U liapittrillain, shoal cOlitiAlle - to ha pa the system ~. ~ . . . wib ... • • t thu rict i witik have biub 5~4 otn. -the • thee the e of bog fete the 'tie 'id.