Star. — London, England, 1812-07-02 00:00:00

- eptinciples of natural justice. It was, he enlist insist • cosy, he dud not mean to recur to the venerable upon it, an injury to any class of subjects, to impose res of ancient records ; it Has not hi s i ntent i on to upon t h em an y in c apacity whi c h would dept.* them • threuele the se himinous piles eif historical autho- of the benefits of the Constitution Upon the face of ‘ in tracing tfie theory under all its various such a law would bd'a gross injustice, unless it could ges and modifications to its remote origin; all beolefe a led upon the ground of absolute necessity; i sished to ask of their Lordships was, to consider and.theii diet necessity ought to be clearly proved be s ily in the state in which it at present existed. In fore their Lordships should consent to cqntinue the aslaitd, the Roman Catholics were-subjected to dis. system. But he would go farther, and contend, that ;liiications ; and, suffeiing under disabilities, which it was not only contrary to the principles of national not affect the same class of subjects in any other justice, i but contrary to the pt inciples of the Christian • of the United Kingdom. Th e English Catholics, !religion, to impose any civil disabilities on account of •hgh they' possessed the qualified right of voting religious opinions; and these disqualifications were, 'Members, were disqualified for sitting as Members he considered, unposed for religious opinions. It was I arliament. They were bereft of the capacity to not alone contrary to the Chi istian religion higwever, id any offices in the State. He was convinced that but erneliarically prima facie contrary to the principles 'it Leedships would not say that the conduct of of the present form of worship—the reformed religion Catholics of England had been such as to require as by law established, at least to the principles upon oritinuance cf such disabilities eon the contrary, whi,li it was at first introduced. Whatever might was persuaded their Lordships would be ready to ! have since passed to favour a different conclusion, mit that their conduct had been at all times tlis- the reformed religion, on its first establishment, was guished four loyalty, regularity, love of order and adverse to every species of intolerance. Unless it e ar.d every other characteristic that could be- could be shewn that the protession of particular reli g to the most exemplary subjects of a State, and' gious opinions would be dangerous to the security of titled tie m to the wise and considerate protec- ; the State, he would contend that it was facie to nof a good Government. The first operation of ' impose any pressure upon any particular class for en system, therefore, he wished to press upon their tertaining them. But he would also contend, that it rdships' attention was, that as the law now stood I was unjust upon its awn rinciples. To form an opi-; Roman Cathelics of England were not ad- ' nion upon this part of th p e case they should take a itted to the same advantages which were en- view of the state of things here and abroad at the time ' !ed by the Catholics of Ireland. In Ireland, i the system oi iginated, and at the present moment. In thnlics were admissible, by law, to civil rights and 1 the first place, though it was not his intention to go ' cesato a certain extent. What, however, was into the detail of the origin of the system, he must re. it situation ? The Act which admitted them to mind their Lordships of what wok place at the early • :ese rights, allowed them capacity for all offices, per i o d s o f t h e R e f ormat ion, and of the jealousy that ovided they took certain oaths ; and yet, strange to then prevailed of the power and authority t f the y, the same Act disqualified them, the Catholics, Pope. All that had been done at particular periods s eomine, for all offices that could be supposed likely against the Catholics, therefore, had arisen out of excite the ambition of ar dent a nd honourable ! the peculiar circumstances of the times. They all well inds. The Act admitted them, certainly, to the I knew the spirit that continued to influence the Go •r ; but it stopped short there, and peremptorily verement and the Legislature during the progress of . squalified them for the bench. This limit to the the Reformation, in the reigns of Elizabeth and .tends of a high and honest ambition must necese i James I. They were equally aware of the principles rily infuse into their minds a spirit of discontent, of religion and persecution, which in the reign of ' would not say disaffection, because he hoped Charles I. convulsed the nation to its extremities and at nothing could kindle such a spirit in tiny class overturned the monarchy itself. To that period of subjects—a spirit of; disc o ntent, however, it would the most cruel and outrageous persecution of noncon. fuse, and that too, arising out of the Act itself {monists, their Lordships would not look for the ors hick granted the concession. The concession gin of any system of peifect legislation wise in the ' early proved, that the Roman Catholics had a ca- theory or proper to be continued. When these Tet i city for Constitutional privileges, and it was, there- tional convulsions ceased, and the Restoration hap ire, not to be supposed that a provision, which re- I pily took place, the persecution changed its object, gnized their capacity, should not inspire the breast but its spit it was not suspended. Their Lordships• f every English oo Irish Catholic with an ardent de- need not be told cf the early' steps after the accession re for the qualification. The next point to which of Charles 11. in consequence of the part which they e concession applied, was with respect to the army; had taken in the previous convulsions, to depress the se principle on this head was togive encouragement interests of the Dissenters by legislative measures,' • the Catholics to a certain extent in the afmy, and which, without being pointed at them, yet involved en to stop their further progress ; and here, as ; the interests of the Roman Catholics also. But even th respect to the bar, it was impossible that the im- at that period it was deemed necessary, in the course aide disqualification should not produce a spirit of of the reign of that Sovereign, to check the ambi iscontent. When he considered the loyalty of the tion of 7.e Catholics, to prevent their forming any atholics of England, he considered it strange that dangerous connexion with France, whose power it ey should not be admitted to the same privileges as Iwas an object national to put down. One could not 1 e Roman Catholics of Ireland. He must further , recal without horror s in the history even of that period .ndemn the gross nnpolicy of the system, which . the means th.lt vore resorted to with a view to de nceded to those Catholics who put themselves and press the Catholics—and 'amongst others, the vilest eir cause upon their mere strength, and withhold- fabrication of plots that ever disgraced the history of g the same just concessions from the Catholics of ; any country. It was impossible that any perfect ngland. The next point he should notice, was one i theory could be traced to such a period. In the hick had been adverted to by a Noble and Learned ireign of . lames 11. the same p• inciples that existed on a former occasion—he invent, theolail.c of 'ill his brothw't gene, . 0 -3 .114.• aintsu liveunuity• for re e Catholics in Scotland. What he should say upon sitting the power of France existed, and the measures is part of the subject, he should advance with less that were taken were consequently all directed to the iffidence, because, if he should fall into error, he same end. That neither was a period to which to buid be subject to correction. He should appeal look for the source of a finished system. At the corn hen to that Noble and Learned Lord, whether this rnencement of the reign of Williom 111. it leas well as not, at present, the state of the law in Scotland, known how favourably lie was disposed to be to all tat since the Act cf 1793, every Scotch Roman Dissenters, and to all toleration generally. He had atliolic may fill any office, civil or military ? Let tyro been supposed to be too favourable to the Ro wir Lordships then look seriously at this dist'nction: man Catholics, because he favoured some officers of !whilst the Roman Catholics of Scotland were eli- that persuasion in his army, and because he extended ' able to all offices, civil or military, those of England toleration to them. He was aware of the authority ore suffering under the pressure of all their former of Lords Somers and Hardwicke—but he was sure isabiFties, with the exception of the trifling mitiga- that their great names could not he used to sustain ion effected by the Act of 1791, which admitted error. It those oho were anxious for a correction them to the elective franchise. In Scotland, how- of the system were in error, they did not err with ierer, they had neither the elective nor representative Lord Somers, because the times had been altered.— franchise, though they were eligible to ail offices ; But it would be recollected, that at that period, and notwithstanding this Liter qualification, they Louis the Foul teenth was in the plenitude of his considered themselves persecuted for their religion. rower, and was ready to come for wardwith it to sup- He stated these circumstances of distinction in the' port the claims of the Pretender to theißritish Throne Civil and political condition of the Roman Catholics —it would also be recollected, that very little 'doubt in the three countries, only to prove to their Lord- existed but that there were in the very Councus of ships the strange, absurd, and monstrous anomaly of William himself many individuals discontented with this system s and to establish, the necessity of a radi- the new order of things, and anxiously expectant of al reformation of it. He was aware of the objection the means of throwing of the mask, and declaring {het was always ready as to the danger of change ; their real sentiments, ohich were wholly in favour of but this he should meet, by asking how we came to the excluded Family. Under circumstances such as have continued safe from such :danger all the time these, he could not indeed go the Zenith of saying since 1793 ? In Scotland, up to this mi ment, the, that the restrictions imposed upon the Catholics were Kormtn Catholics were -admissible to all offices— justifiable, inasmuch as he was alugether inimical to Even that, he believed, of High Commissioner of the the system, and could not admit of the expeeiency Kirk, without the existence of fear , or the occurrence of having recourse to i t , u nd er any circumstances; iaf danger. He would ask, therefore, • those who ur-ibut he would not deny, that theie was, at the period ked this apprehension of danger as an argument Ihe had alluded to, much , to pall:ate their adoption. against the censideratien of the question, to inform The Pope was then in the full vigour cf his autho their Lordships by what means that danger had been city, and, coupled with this circumstance, the situa. avoided in Scotland : how it had happened that sic don of this country was such, that a man Might; Perms had existed in that country; for he had never easily conceive the necessity of securing the State, beard that any idea of alarm had been s:tggested and have recourse to unjust and violent measures for there, or conceived here ? What danger, be must the purpose, without inc wring the charge of •being desire to be informed, had either the Presbyterian or actuated by an imbecile and tyrannous spirit. But the Episcopalian Church incurred in Scotland, by the he oonld warmly enter his protest against the appli ooncessir ns to the Catholics? The answer must be, cation of Lord kiardwicke's opinion, in the present !sane. What danger, then, need be apprehended rote, wheucircumstances wereso.widelydifferentfrom tfrom the sumo policy here, or. in Ireland ? He was valiht they were when that opinion was given. It 'aware that the Roman Catholics were few in number would be recollected, that at that period a rebellion •in Scotleoei. But when they were admitted to their had just been extinguished in the country, in which qualification in 1793, or at any period since, had they even Peers of the realm had been engaged, and who availed themselves of the concession, to make an at-; had justly yielded up their lives as sacrifices to the tack Opon the national establishments? His great ob. ' offended laws of the country. But was there any ject was to impress upon their Lordships, in this part i larger of the kind now impending ? or was there of his statement, the monstrous anomaly of the sye. I any necessity of having recourse to the principles, on sem, by calling their attention to the manner in which : an adherence to re hich the great man be had men sr affected England and Scotland respectively. Let' tioued had insisted as necessary for our protection any man consider this seriously, and say, whether " against a Popish Pretender ? Certainly not. Every there was not sufficient ground for iecinii y into the 'feature of the case winch called torch the observations r easona of the difference into the operation of the sys. of his Lordship, end that which subsisted, distinctly 'tem, and its pi actical effects in the to o count' ies ;and ; and widely differed, nor did the difference subsist only ' a lso, whether it was not the duty of their Lordships ', as to time, but the principles upon which the opinions ito examine into the mode and principles of its insticu. of Lord Hardwicke and Lord Serums were framed; tion, for the purpose of bringing it, it possible, into a were now by no means applicable. The protection 'more perfect and complete state ? The existence of of * Protestants did at no time consist portly of re ns& restraints as were imposed by this system, he I gulations withoespect to Popery, but with these re as aso lo GootAad was, in any cattatry t contrary to the Aulations, were combieed certain enactments again: ll\ . ._ 1". tenets l ,.i se .ed for hold e Lotrever pu w :i • sl High Treason. Treasons wet mated with a refer. • though we did iMpeke, , iga see k t once to dig existence and claims of the Pretender, which i disguise or conceal the fact, fcr religiou s i eaey • would of course become • a dead letter Whenever time connected with tenets of a political nature, Erbil had put a period to thaveristence. Accordingly we , were abjured by those who were would fi nd that an Act passed in the 7th of Queen , them. Under circumstances such as these, se e n 4 Anne, and which provided against the attempts of; discontent natural and to - be erpected ?He wont i* the Pretender, was to expire on his decease ; but this , far from countenancing or jtistityingra meneicc. a law was afterwards, by an Act of the 17th of inflammatory language ; but as C ounsellors cf cr George the Second, extended to his Sons, - Farther ' Crown, it was the duty of the Members cf that i' than the exinction of the family, no alarmist had sembly to examine well the probable effects t l e l extended his views, and the law was now of course causes of discontent among the peop le I . * t O el ' obsolete. He would now beg leave to offer a few might conceive to exist. It he were only to dwell , a remarks, with respect to the arguments against the probable ill consequences of the deagtreu do s. the Catholic claims, which had been drawn from contents which now subsisted in Irelend, he e l the situation in which the Pope was placed. In the have made eut a case su ffi ciently stron g to entitsl::-1,1--til year 18.05, it was asserted that the danger of conces- i to call ter the serious consideration of their Lo-d. sion to the Catholics was enhanced by Bonaparte's i ships ; b:.t how vastly would his claim e p ee diet ,0 mtiCli being reconciled to the See of Rome ; but in the aut.') Mei be strengthened, when he mad sa f e l y 1 . 1 raping the labial name of HEAVEN what was the nature of the retort- that it was impossible that the nexiotis laws t o u h. nterest, And ciliation r That might be judged of by the object those discontents were owing, could cell:irate to of oft, which was nothing more or less than the rnik- rate without giving birth to a train (dills, m ule , -'.. ing the whole of Italy subject to the Iron Crown.— ble than any which the heated imapini.lion of el ti e lk This object had been attained, and to that Crown most horrid and wkked could conjure up l W ine had been united the rich and valuable teinpnralities not by delay, with respect to this preet qtieva s . of the Roman Pontiff, and he himself had fallen be- weakening the nat nal spirie—cia neath the power of the person who wished to be re- resources—undermining every ussi ' 1 r•e iii este iii e conciled to him ; but again, from this circumstance, in the country—tindei 'hieing the vt ry Ch rh E was danger, increased danger, augured. It was said , lelishment, in which we took that he still retained his authority in all its amplitude, which we were so much alarmed ? it etas imp as and that this authority would be in future increased • that we samild wrest from any clan; -•of • 1 • I eop ! l i. under the influence of our enemy ; but what an erro- evil rights (and an eligibility to civil and ste la e neous view was this to tike of the subject ? Could dikes was th e Ogle t t every Bri idi sari ject),in it it be seriously maintained, that, under the power of , der to sec uze a church t stab:i,hrneat, et rhnin iitsts' Bonaparte, the old man had any autherity ? His ing the injured w ith a deep decision to de Es e eit t e a i e opinion was very different from that of such as would ; ment which was to he upheld a;.d fortified by thee answer him in the affirmative. ill the captivity of ! privations, and by being male to press en their c,a the Pope, he contemplated safety rather than danger. I condition ; and I) ow shallow end erroneo us was the So far from that circumstance having armed his au- policy which cou Id embody arinst the Church thority with new terror, in his mind it had completely numerous and p ots ertul class el the cernmeeity, extieguished it. 'Phere seemed to be abundance of , who might, by wiser end more leriieat treatn ere, ki at least negative proof that it had extinguished it : : made to feel the it int( rests core - acted eith• l a for if it had e xisted, and was meant to be made an safety, and to start' aft th among the most neloas . inquiry of, had there not been hitherto numerous op- lice- supporters ? Lur it w ould be said, :hat to bar g portnnities for calling forth its power ? Might it i within the rase of the Clanch's favour retains not have been used with vast advantage to the cause verse to -her tenets, was dangtrcut. Lot le sou 1 of Bonaparte in Spam and Portugal ? and, above all, desire those who rested on seich arguments to a y would that person have been tempted to put it in I what evil concession had as yet produced, anti . • action in the Spanish Colonies ? But bad we ever to turn their eyes towards the danger whiai ._ heard that any attempt of the kind had been made ? E.tablishment would ir.cur from the Menial s. , And not having so heard, could we, for a moment, ness, with respect to the comae n caemy, et '. imagine, that if it was likely to be attended withetny must be the censeeucnee• of leaving unaNyed success, and not, on the contrary, to have proved discontents they _were diseosed to siteht, and '. completely abortive, it would not have been made ? must inevitably increase, if the system to ea. But it was obvious that the proceedings of the French they were attribteable we re blindly persevered Potentate, with respect to the Pope, were not the re- f and that in a prorortion which might appal suit of any views like those imputed to him, whence`must confident to contemplete. It would be war " Ilis chief object was his temporalities ; and it he had r while to euquire what were the effects of the sy any ulterier view, it was to extinguish the Papal I in various parts of the United Kingdom, what w. power altogether, and to substitute far it, so far at 1 the state of that when it was much telexed, and to least as regarded his own dominions, another spiritual when it was in lieu ? Wee Ireland tranquil? or e dominion, cf which he himself should be the main Scotland disturbed,wherePdpistswereeligibletost. spring. Where, then, was this dreaded authority ef ; office e f the State, and where they never had in any the Pope ? At Rome it• was destroyed, and it would ineta rice abused that privilege ? Here was a contra be difficult to say in what other part of Europe it : thet spoke volumes ; which exhibited the practical el existed. Where was the Pope himself ? That was ifects of the system in all their defrmity, and dearly not known ; but, wherever he was, he was a captive. I proved ; that from their removal, no evil whAteveress While he seas a captive, he trusted he had strewn I likely to proceed. With this, and vaticus other la• there was no danger to be appielienered from him, sons of a similar nature before our eyes, we were* and whenever he ageiit might regain his authority, it decide whether we were to renounce or adhere to a would then be time era ugh to take means to guard isystem to which we could not adhere without prods. against the mischief that might result horn his abuse cnrg all the evil of which we had been so elm and of it. The doctiiiies supposed to be backed by his forcibly warned : but, from the abandonmest e'• authority. those ciactrines, so far as they related to enothe other band, we might reasnnab!rexpect tog, our temporal concerns, or to cur spiritual concerns the greatest beinfits; without the possibility tit tbee influencing our temporal, had been abjured by every being alloyed by the slightest idmixture of evil. It i part of Europe. WI en the Catholics were examined was maintained, that no effort was to be expected touching them, we were told that they bad never from the Emakcipation of the Catholics, that eiwco. been held, or, that if they bad, they were no longer tent would riot be appeased in Ireland by that men held; the Catholics undertook the subversion of them. i sure ; but if it was dear that a proportitar ofthellia When the learned Catholic Universities were cjosul - ! population were suffering under a grievance in tie ted with respect to them, they renounced them, and I nature of a penalty, was it credible toat its ameol even the late Pope Pius VI. had himself renouirce4 would mitigate discontent? Ag tin, it ryas allele' them. -But then it was said, that framed as they had . that this was nett the only evil that affected lre'euer— been at a General Council, they had never been re- I and this was made a ground of argument against it neunced by such an assembly ; t r ue, for there was mo . , removal. Was ever such a maxim Wore propel such assembly to renounce them; the authority did ; as proper to influence the measures of any Gutters. not exist, and would never be revived ; it was impure I ment ? er was there upon record so proa Meat an er* Bible in the present state of the popedom that it ever ; ample of human folly as the suggesting of it coati. should. But would we, for want of a formal revo- ; tined ? what I because a commutity laboured untie cation, not to be obtained, when a virtu a one had I a great variety of grievances were we cautiously wy. taken place, continue a system inconsistent with the ! stain from diminisaing their nunibtr ? When ecia . general frame and . spirit of our laws—inconsistent , an opportunity of removing that, th e pressure of %did with natural justice—inconsistent with the Constitual was most severe, were we to suffer it to subsist lit tion, so justly admired—and inconsistent with that) willing to wrong the rest? Was the l e ilowihipd religion we were so anxious to protect—a systemlills to remain for ever indissoluble ?He would net which had arisen out of temporary and , occasional ! indeed, pledge himself, that the removed of the Our circumstances, and which had been supported and I biluies affecting the Catholics should remove all die maintained by a danger, the shade of which no longer ; content in Ireland, but be could safely assert', Otto subsisted ? 'Would we retain it in defiance of its strange it would be removed the main cause eil discenter:) and anomalous operation, in England, ScotlAnd e and : it was a great and a legitimate grievance, one %did! Ireland ; relaxing wheye there would appear some ' inflamed and ex:el-crated every other, whether owl reason for restraint, and imposing that restraint or imaginary ; one which wes cf a nature most po where no evil could result from relaxation ? or, were ' ticulArry calculated to gall the pride of the neat n !!! all its practical evils so completely compensated for which it was sustained ; and for that reasen aas w i , by the beiany and perfection of its theoretical con- . more dangerous, for the Irish were a people ofs p ro* texture, that we should not approach it with the sa- arid lofty spirit, a people who could as little as!! • crilegious hand of innovation ?—Assuredly no one other brook the te•flection that they were a art' would maintain such a proposition. On the other race, made subject to a penalty in common with hand, were the practical benefits such as should in- guilty, and with the guilty only , and this NT" ( duce us to bear with the theoretical anomalies and kept alive in their bosoms, would impart adder' absurdities which it presented ? He was aware-that nal bitterness to every other grievance under ow' :0s sometimes the best effects flowed from such anomalies they might buffer. 'To remove all oth er grieves 4. —but was that the case in the present instance ? by permitt ng the matter still to subsist, would.coort., no means ; on the contrary, they went to in& t sot . - Lively speaking, be useless, while, on the contr . /497 fetings on those who were within the sphere of their open the doer here to healing and cencilistort 11' operation, sufferings, he would say, was it net the rangements, would render every other p o int of an* alit inability to -sit in Parliament—su ff ering, was it not tisfaction of easy adjustment. But upon what 3 _117 - degradation—was not every privatian of the kind rity was the nugator y and ineffective naturool La' ssi by which men were marked out from their fellow. Emancipation supposed? why, upon that of the . 1 C4* subjects degradation, and consequently suffering ? tunate persons who were examined before tectet . A It was sullering, ,and suffering of the nature of a pe- mittees of the Irish Parliament. These , certainty.; natty. Their Lordships would reflect, that an inabi- affirm that Emancipation would beeffectual; —Wrn lity to hold civil and military o ffi ces was inflicted as this authority - on which to place any relianc e 1 .. 41 a penalty for misdemeanours of a certain desciip- the testimony of persons avowedly con cerned 'i __ e don commilted by public men—if not as a penalty, revolt against the Government , of that pufe 'l7. wr as what Was it indicted—and if it was inflicted as a unsiispicious nature which should be ar &lowa All penalty in the one case, how could it b a iiivested of forcible and obvious reasons in favour e f the awel lo , that character in the other ? If it were admitted to which arose ein of reflections on the natur e ft 01 oho: be a penalty, then he would. say, that the Catholics human heart? Do whatever else you phrase, s a l * subjected to it were eubjected• to persecution ; for it conspirators, but let Catholic Emancipeue awl would be too narrow a view to take of persecution to it is a thing of nought. And wha t was .d th: ux e= say, that fire and faggot, and the rack were the only of this holiest or judicious advice . Di Ministers which weld execute her bidding. The word they uttered seem intended to et.lank Ant i* ee penalty we imposed and the imposition of which we flame and implant in the heart of the atrial; He would justified by an appeal to the acts of a Council,. the sleds of dissentron and discord • ) i l autholitYnf which was disclaimed by the persecuted, that it was his sincere oraiou, t h at negbi lg. .