Star. — London, England, 1826-03-21 00:00:00

- s contrary:to-the principles of that pervasion. So long as this was insisted upon, the system of education would never be cordially acceded to by the Roman Catholics. A ltoman Catholic Bishop had assured the Commissioners that he would have no objection to the Testament being place." in the hands of such as were capable of understanding it —(Near). The placing of meaty in the halt& of Itonvin Catholics, must go to establish a syitent of Roman Catholic education, over which the House could have no controul : the consequence would be, to perpetuate the jealousy and diatrust which had bo Inns existed. The Hun. Gen tleman concluded, by oppu.ing the motion. Mr. M. FITZGLItALD believed that the advice given by the Honourable Commissioners for Education was, that the beat possible means should be adopted for the education of the poor in Ireland, without the least reference to professions of faith, whether Protestant or ' catholic. Whilst the Hon. Member who spoke last depre cated applying public money to be spent in the education of the Catholics of Ireland, through the medium of an associ rted Catholic body, the public money was every year voted to the-Kildare street Association, a Protes tant body, in order to educate the Catholic public of , Ireland. The consequence of all this was, that the pro int was altogether abortive; whilst the Catholics them selves had it in their power to educate at this moment 377,000 children, or a Jolts in their (Awn schools, out of their own funds. Now, he believed; that until the point was conceded, that the Scriptures should form no part of the religious instruction of the Catholic children, the pmjeet of a united Protestant and Catholic system of public instrut.tion was hopeless. A large proportion of the lower Irish were scholars of no mean pretensions, as far as regarded reading, writing, and even classical in f .rmation, but the sort of education which they really required and wanted, was a habit of industry, a respect to the laws and to order. The best mode, in his mind, to propagate the re formed religion In Ireland, would be to establish a common system of education amongst Protestants and Catholics, without making it a see fuel net that the reading of the Scriptures should form a pert of the ordinance of such establishment..—He hoped the amend ment of his Honourable Friend, and the discussions of that night, would not fail to-produce a due effect on the mind of his Majesty's Itiimisters, and lead them to the future adoption of such measures, ou the subject of education - connected with Ireland, as might display a spirit of liberality and conciliation which would be worthy of themselves and of the high official situations they filled. Mr. Secretary PEEL confessed that he felt the only question now before the House was, whether it would, by its vote this evening, sanction the continuance of a system of education in Ireland, which was at the least a beneficial substitute fur any thing which had preceded it; or, by opposing the estimate, put as end to the sys- Vas, until a system could lie sebmitted which was mote 1 kely to give general satisfaction, and become perhaps permanent. Many were certainly of opinion it would be advisable that the system, whatever it were, should not be placed under the control of any public consti tuted b.gly of persons, As an authority on the gener:l _ _ question, he should only cite the opinion of Dr. Murray, the titular Primate of Ireland, that the children of Ro man Catholics and Protestants should be brought op and instructed in the same schools, leaving their reli gious instructi• n to their respective Clergy. That Rev. Gentleman, no slight authority on such a subject, thought there might be books compiled even of a reli gious nature—such a harmony of the gospels and ex. tracts from sacred writ—which, so far from being ob jectionables would be advantageous to the youth of either persuasions For one, he could not but wish those who were so laudably engaged in this praiseworthy undertaking, all possible success. The Commissioners selected by the Irish Government were the very class of individuals who would have been pointed out by the natural suggestion of all persons conversant with the s abject; they gartered together an immense mass of information which, others could not have gathered, be cause they were acquainted with the local prejudices of the people, and they were therefore the most com petent to make an experiment in the fist instance.— The success was as yct uncertain, but the question now was, whether,• in the anticipation of their certain success at a future time, an end was to be put to their recommendations. The effect of the proposed reso• lutious would be to stigmatize the labours of others, and such a course should be avoided as much as pos sible. Ile had the honour of being Secretary to the Irish Government when the Report of the Committee vas made; and as he was of opinion that an educated Catholic was better than an uneducated Catholic, and as there was no chance of their conversion to the Pro- testa* faith, he thought the Kildate stieet Society, composed of Catholics, Protestants, and Presbyterians, had better be continued. He was anxious, also, that, the notions of Psoselytism to the Protestant faith should, twt get into the minds of the people; and he could further say, that he bad a Bill drawn op on that very subject. However, after very deliberate cunsultatiou %kith many persons, particularly with those opposed to him in political feelings towards the Catholics, it was c'ecided that the Bill should be abandoned. Education. was making a rapid progress in Ireland at that period, and that was a further inducement to act as the liish Government had done, namely, in not unnecessarily bringing the subject before Parliament. All denomi nations of perscris were associated together in the kildare-street S cietl•—.nd looking at the fourteenth Repert of the Commissioners of &location, he found no recommendation to aboiith it. Just the very con trary. He was asked, what had been done by the So ciety ? It could be shewn, that some good had been done by therm, and be thought it would be unwise to paralyze their exertions at this moment. They might have made some mistake as to the number of their schdars, but taking the minimum at 50,000, (of whom 25,000 were Roman Catholics), of persons educated by them, it could not be said they had been of so little use as that their exertions should now be paralyzed. Be side the books circulated by that Society—books ap proved of by Dr. Doyle, and other Catholic Prelates, should be -taken into account. In 1818, when they commenced their labours, the number of tracts circu lated by them was 50,000:- - Is 1820 1821 1822 1823 1824 1825 123,000 153,000 185,000 106,000 121,000 172,316 So far, then, the bonii fide distribution of useful tracts was beyond all doubt. Again, in the school called the • modem school, or school for teachers, there were 400 boys and 207 girls, of all persuasions—of these there were 158 Glare Established Church, 225 Catholics, and the remaining number Presbyterians, which was a proof that the Kildare street Society, though not, perhaps, doing all that might be done—the system not being complete on which they acted—still it would be clear, that the Society was not actuated by any strong prose. lytibing system, when the result was what be had stated. /le trusted he should nut, by agrteineto the Resolutions, cast a stigma upon the hi..- 1 2 Institutions, and by that means piralytetbeir 'cordons. The difference between him and the Hon. Member was cetuinly very trifling ' but be thought that the adoption of those resolutions , would be construed out of doors in a very, different manner. With. respect to what hadbeen sAid,*about giving the Irish people an education ) not foundekon the Christian Religion, he would make but one observit. tion. He, fur one, could not agree that that House should sanction any system of education not founded upon the Christian Religion. ( Hear). He did not wish to see a race of young philosophers who derived their sense of moral duty front any other source than the Christian Religion. He had not the slightest wish to see ragged children with a Cicero under one arm and a Virgil under the other, as the peasants of Kerry were stated to be by the Right Hon. Member for that county, but he wished to afford them an education far better suited to their condition of life. As he agreed with the principle of the two first Resolutions, he trusted the Hon. Member would not, by pursing the amendment to a division, compel him (Mr. P.) to vote against it, which was thr only course left him, without doing that which he should be sorry to do—tamely, to au a stigma upon the Kildare-street Association. Mr. M. FITZGERALD, in explanation, said that he was far from wishing to see the education orally class in Ireland, or elsewhere, unaccompanied with religious instruction. AU he had wished for was, that though Catholic and Protestant children should have their general education in common, their religious instruction might be separate. Mr. PElgL—Then Dr. Murray went farther than this; for he wax of opinion that selections might be made from the sacred Scrip tures which would answer children of Protestants and Catholics. Sir J. NEWPORT contended, that the affirming these resolutions would not tend to cast any slur on the kil thre-street Society, because that. institution profe.sed not to interfere with the religious opinions of the chit. dren. He thought it would be better to affirm these resolutions, or at least the first of them, and then go into the Committee to ascertain what - sum ought to be voted. The Right Hon. Baronet then proceeded to point out the great inconvenience which arose in some of the charity-schools from the want of a proper supply of books. A gentleman who visited one of those schools found a volume of Roderick Random, used by one of the boys as a school-book; and on inquiring why such a book was allowed, was told that the boys brought any book they could get, ie which to learn to read. With respect to the system of religious education, be could not see bow any dithculty could arise, in allowing one day out of the six, for giving religious instruction to the children separately according to their respective creeds, and ►eaving them on the other days to receive general educa tion in commton. Looking at the principle in this light, he could see no evil as likely to result from the adoption of the resolutions before the House. Mr. GOULBURI* said, it could answer no good purpose to affirm an abstract principle on which they were all agreed, whereu it alight lead to unpleasant misunderstandings out of doors. Mr. BUTTERWORTH expressed his surprise at the opinions delivered by an Hon. Member below him. • If the Bible were a bad book, it might be well to exclude it ; but if it was a work of inspiration ; it was impossible its circulation could be injurious, and it was unreasonable to proscribe it. One of the greatest barriers to. educa tion was the interference of the Priests, who neglected to educate the children themselves, and withdrew them from schools devoted to that purpose. There was it, Gentleman in Ireland who had five hundred children at a school, who were all withdrawn from the school by the priests. The Hon. Member then read a string of Resolutions from some school-masters of Armagh, Cavan, Monaghan, Meath, and Louth, expressing their assent to the Rheims Bibles sent by the Irish Society, and he was persuaded, that this was the sentiment of the people at large. He could mention an instance to the House of a Learned Judge in Ireland, wild, in ad dressing the Grand Jury of Limerick, said the people. were so demoralized, that convictions produced no impression on them; be was tired of passing sentence, and he was persuaded nothing would work a reform but scriptural education. And he trusted the State would never consent to say system of education which prescribed the Holy Scriptures. - Mr. C. HUTCHINSON, in reply to the Hon. Gentle. man who had just spoken, denied that his Hon. Friend, or any one el,e, had ever maintained the monstrous pro. position that a system of education should be established, disconnected v religious instruction. The argument was, that the Catholics should be allowed to have their own 'them; and that any attempt to educate the people that was connected wall a ay stem of proselytism, must necessaiily defeat itself. The Hon. Member who had just spoken bad pronounced a cruel libel on the Catholic Clergy of Ireland, when he said that their flocks were destitute of moral and religious instruction. As to the Bibles, the dissemination of which the Hon. Member had recommended, he had only shown his own gross ignorance in cluing so. Did the Hon. Gentleman know bow many (in some parts of Ireland) could read an Irish Bible' Not one in a thousand. He denied that there had been any syitematic neglect of the moral and religious education of the people of Ireland, and he was fully assured that if any expectation was entertained of shaking the attachment of the people to the Catholic religion by any side-wind or artifice, be it ever so subtle or refined,tkose who se thought would hod themsebresentirely mistaken. Mr. SPRING RICE replied, but declined pressing his amend ment to a division : after which the original motion, that the Speaker do now leave the Chair, having been put and agreed to, the House resolved itself into a COMMITTEE OP SUPPLY. Mr. BANK ES then moved that a sum of 13,9921. be granted to his Majesty tor defraying the expenses of the British Museum for the year 1826; he observed that between 127,800 and 128,000 persons hail visaed the Museum last year. Mi. 11U kl B complained of the Museum only being open three days for the inspection of the public ; this regulation often caused very great inconvenience to individuals, which would be materially remedied irk were to be open four days in the week instead of three. Mr. BANK ES wished the Museum to be as accessible 45 possible to the public ; but it was necessary that one day in the week should be reserved for cleaning it, and two days more were required for. the exclusive admittance of stu dents who bad occasion to examine the different specimens more In detail than the rest of the public. The motion was then put, and agreed to. PROTESTA Di? , CHARTER SCHOOLS. Mr. GOULBURN moved the Irish Estimates; and on the motion for granting the sum of 19,5001. for the Protestant Chartered Schools, which the Right Hun. Gentleman said had been diminished 5000/ 4 Mr. JOHN SMITH objected to the grant, unless she Right lion. Gentleman would assure him, that the cruelties and barbarities practised in those schools, which would disgrace the character of any nation, were to be prevented. If he did not secure this assurance, he should oppose the motion. Mr. GOULBUItN : The Hon. Member would see, by the sum being reduced, and it being the intention to ask for a still smaller sum the next year, that the whole of these schools were to be gradually done away. He was aware, as w(11 as the Hon. Member, of these com plaints; and though it was not possible immediately to reiorrn all those schools, neither was it practicable to turn all the children in them loose into the world at once. Th e law officers of Ireland had taken the proper steps fur prosecuting the persons who had been accused of misbehaviour ; and there could be no doubt that the probability of being brought to a public trial would be an of check to future cruelty. Sir JOHN NEWPOR I' objected to the grant, on the ground that nothing had been done to carry into execu tion the resolution of the House of Commons, passed seven months before the Estimates were framed. He complained that Catechists, who received gratuities and salaries for making reports, had never made any ; and that they, as parochial Ministers, had no right whatever for catechising the thildren,which wsrtheil bjected, therefore, to coati' tt.eir sala- inning J gratuities. The manner in which the. Corn .cee, which had the coittroul of these schools, had suffered them to be mismanaged, their own officer `taking bribes, and going unpunished, took away all confidence in the future management of the schools.— If the controul were left to the same body, the inquiry pinto the abuses would be extended ad infinitum. It was seven months since the resolution of the House of Com- Mons had been passed, and nothing had yet been done in punish even the officers of the Committee, who had grimly mis- Cendneted themselves. Mr. GOULBURN acknowledged that abuses had misted, but, he contended, the proper steps had been taken to prosecute and punish the offenders, He would take on himself to promise that no part of this sum should be misapplied. Gent!emelt who• were acquainted with Ireland would be aware how many local difficul ties there were in the way of ascertaining the truth as to the con duct of the Catechists. Mr. HUME said that this was a pretty speciMen or the manner in which Ireland was governed, as also of the manner in which the extravagant grants for that country were applied. They were now called upon to vote grants which amounted altogether to 371 0001. for Irish charities. The greater part of these charities were placei under authorities which Government had no means of controlling, and thus it happened that the grant of •money to support them was, in general, a gross abuse of the funds of the public. He complained that the Right Hon. Secretary opposite had greatly increased the amount of these grants, during the time he had held his present office. In 1822 the aggregate of these votes was 322,0001. and it had gone on in creasing progressively from year to year, until it amounted at present to 371,0001. He wondered that the Chancellor of the Exchequer (who before the close of the present year would find a want of money, or he [Mr. Humej was much mistaken) had not probed these charities to the bottom. The amount of money voted to the charter schools in 1880,was taken upon the average vote of the three years preceding the Union. It was then 13,0001. In 1807 it had increased to 20,0001. in 1813 to 30,0001. in 1817 to 41,0001. in 1818 it decreased greatly, but it had now raised itself again to 19,0001. The ag gregate amount of the sums voted for these useless and mischievous schools, since the Union, was 732,5681. independent of the funds which they derived from pri vate estates, which, by the bye, were so mismanaged, that they did not produte more at present than they did in 1796, though every man's priiate estate had trebled in value since that time. Those funds amounted to 183,0001. so that altogether 916,00% had been spent in the course of twenty-five years upon these idle and mis. chievous charter-schools. He contended that the House ought not to be content with the slow and tardy pace in which the Government was proceeding to :educe them; and in order to accelerate the reduction of them, he wc.uld suggest that the grant now proposed should be placed at the dispo sal of the,„Lord Lieutenant, and not of the Consmk.ioners. In con clusion, he objected very strongly to the grant of 7381. 9s. ed. for law expenses. How could such money be fairly expended in sup port of the Protestant charter schools '? Mr. GOUL BURN said the Hon. Member had made two objections ; first, that the votes had been increased every year. If the Hon. Member looked at the papers, he would find that the sum this year was less by 19.0001. than in the year 1522. The Hon. Member did not regard trifles, but stated that 7581. was, required for the discharge of law expenses. That -sum of 7551. was, however, no more than 461. Is. so that the lion. Gentleman had overstated the sum 6921. 'chat was a proof of the 'Mon. Gentleman's accuracy. Mr. HUM E denied that any material mistatement had been made. Mr. MONCK objected to the whole of the Charitable Ebtimates.l they were a great hurdles on the people of this country. Because no provision had been made for the poor of Ireland, the people of England and Scdtland were called upon to do that which the people of Ireland were competent to do themselves. The ilbn. Member thought a tax might be laid on the rich Irish landlord& to defray these charitable institutions. Mr. GRATTAN said he should have no objection to a tax for the purpose stated by his lion. Friend, provided it was bid on the landholder in the way of rates, and applied to chariubl institutions. Sir JOHN NEWPORT moved as an amendment, that the money be issued to the turd Lieutenant, for the purpose of pro viding fur the maintenance of these children, with all due regard to the future reduction of the establishments themselves. Mr. BROGDEN doubted whether such an amendment was in conformity with the rules of the House. Grants were made told. Majesty without any limitation as to the persons through whom they were to issue, and he did not know whether this amendment, if carried, would not be an infringement on the Royal prerogative. Mr. JOHN SMITH considered the conduct of the Superin tendents of the. Charter Schools highly blameable. They appeared to the Hon. Member to be liable to censure for the barbarities which had occurred. Mr. GOD LBURN could not concur in the amendment, coupled as It lives with a censure upon the Managers of the Charter Schools. He could not consent to make those Gentlemen answerable for the barbarity of Individuals. Every effort had been made by the I)irecton to discover and punish those who had been guilty of those hAtbarities. Sir JOHN NEWPORT was persuaded the Managers had not done their duty. _ Mr. HUTCHIMION thought the proposition of his Right Hon. Friend a lenient one, after the facts which had appeared in the Report. Mr. P. LEWIS said everything would be done for the benefit of the public with respect to the Charter Schools which could be done. Mr. BUTTERWORTH supported the Chartered Schools. The Committee then divided— For the amendment Against it . 19 42 • -2 Majority against the amendment The original question was then agreed to. Mr. HUME moved an amendment to reduce the sum of 9,000/. to defrahe expences of the Society for Suppressing Vice to 9,4301. GORDONG Mr. opposed the Irish Estimates altogether, 'and expressed a hope that the Right Hon. Gentleman would produce them next year in an amended state. Mr. GOULBURN defended the conduct of Government. The Committee then divided-- For the amenJrnent, 11 I Against It, 37 I Majority. N. Oa our entering the Gallery w;found Mr. HUME moving, That the Chairman should report pro gress, and beg leave to sit again. Mr. R. GORDON opposed the motion. Mr. GOULBURN begged leave to proceed with the votes as soon as possible. After a few words front Col. Townsman, Mr.' M. FITZGUALD, and Mr. GAATTAN, Mr. HUME said, there were many Hon. Gentlemen who wished these Estimates to be gone through as early as possible, they were quite in the right, because they were to benefit their country. He, however, could not allow them to be voted away without some deliberation, the more especially as he stood forward only as a Representative f Scotland, for whose benefit they were not calculated—(A laugh). He should therefore still move for an Adttrnment. The CHAIRMAN then reported progress, and obtained leave to sit again on Wednesday next. The House resumed, and.the Orders of the Day being disposed Of, the House Adjourned at On o'Cioca. Foreigners smile at the inconsistency of our Statute Book. One Art prohibits gaming—a second seems to legalize it, by fixing stamps on cards and dice—whibt a third has actually abolished Lotteries, the most placid, air, and innocent mdde of adventure' ever invented, and indeed the only one whereby every Person has an equal chance with his neighbour; and by which any man, Woman. or child may, for a very small sum of money, gain a princely forum in a few days, as in the relent Lottery, which of Peres'', is the very last but one that ever will be ,übmtttrd to the public. THE EVENING LONDON. 'AR. TUESDAY, MARCH 21, 1826. STOCK EXCHANGE, TWELVE O'CLOCE. eons*ls opened at 77# # for the Anent, and went up to 711 ; but fell again to 77i, with little or nothing doing. The failure of yesterday has rather damped the Public spirit, fearing it will be the cause of some more houses going In the same line. Consols are now 7711. In the Foreign 'Market, nothing is doing. Current Prices: Old Spanish 106 Russian 77# IS, Brazilian Bonds $6, Greek Bonds 171 # 111. ONE O'CLOCK. The Market remains in the same state as at Twelve o'Clock. Consols 7711, with scarcely anything doing. PRICK OF STOCKS AT TWO O'CLOCK. Bank Stock Shut. S per Cent. Red. Shut. S per Cent. Cons. 77% % % • 53; per Cent. Shut. 31 per Cent. Red. Shut. 4 per Cent. 95 3 / 4 1 / 2 Low! Ann. Shut. India Stock Shut. India Bondc. 3 4 prem. £l,OOO Excheq. Bill, 4 5 prem. £loo acrd £2OO ditto 4 5 prem. £5OO ditto 4 5 prem. Cons. for Acct. 77% 34 14 FOREIGN FUNDS. TWO O'CLOCK Brazilian Bonds, 564 Mexican Bonds, 1925,5 p C. 65i Chilfan Bonds,6 p Ct. SO S GS} Colombian Bds. 6 p C. 504 Ditto Acct. 664 65 Do lids 1894, 494 1494 Perm,. p C. 314 1 Do. Ace. 494 494 Span. 5 p Ct. Cons. 104 Danish Bonds. 3 p C. 551 55 Ditto Acct. 104 11 Ditto Acct. SS Span. Sp. Ct. C. 1843.74 BRITISH AND FOREIGN SHARES, TWO O'CLOCK. Anglo Mexican 5 pm. Anglo Chilian Tlalpuxallua United Mexican SNARL 100 100 400 PA n. 45 25 5 1 50 50 20 Ditto ileW 40 15 13i Australian - . 100 6 15 Great Westminster Dairy 25 .. 6 le Mexican Company 100 10 1 Metropolitan Alderney Dairy 25 4 - 1i 1 THE KING'S HEALTH. We have the extreme happiness to state, that en in quiring at Carlton Palace, this day, we learn that the KING passed another very good night, and is so much better this morning, that no Bulletin will be issued to-day. We sincerely congratulate oar Readers and the country on this happy event, and hope soon to be enabled 'to announce the entire revoration of his MAJESTY'S health. Our cotemporary of the Morning Chronicle has treated largely on the encreasing evil of the POor's Rates, and has called public attention to what he de. nominates, an attempt which is now about to be made io Parliament by the landed interest, to shift a great share of the burthen from their own shoulders to those of the community at large. The gigantic evil of pan• perism is, we very much fear, too deeply rooted ever to be reformed by any other means than beginning at the root , and source of t'm disease—namely, the disposition of the poorer classes to rely on paro chial aid rather than on their own provident ex. ertions. If the moral feelings of the labouting population were once elevated, so as to disdain the beg. garly relief of Poor's Rates, the latter would in time be limited to their legitimate objects—a provision for ex treme distress and helplessness. To this most desir. able end, the admirable Institution of the Savings' Banks has already, in the short space of seven or eight years, made surprising advances. It appears y Parliamentary Papers, that up to the commencement of the late distresses, the depositors to the Savings' Banks had in the aggregate laid by a capital to the tonishing amount of thirteen millions !—of which, not. withstanding all the subsequent misery which the coon• try has exprienced, not more, we understand, than half a million has been drawn nut to the present time. To how many thousands has not that small -sum, less than four per cent. of the whole, afforded sue. coot in the late eventful trials, who would other. wise have come upon the parishes? If that pro. vident spirit should be still further cherished by fel• lowing it up is it is intended, through the Insti tutions of Friendly Societies, we anticipate that the benefit to the moral feelings of the poor will be multiplied in a tenfold degree;—these being among the extreme poor, millions of persons living by daily labour, who cannot save even the humble pittance of one shilling in the week. B.st even these, it appears by the Report of the Committee on Friendly Societies, by a steady payment of two shillings a month, from the fruits of their own industry a provision sickness of twelve shillings a week ; a further of a pension for life in old age—namely after 65, ther in health or sickness, of five shillings a week; lastly, a sum of ten poundi to defray decently the pence of their funeral, whenever the, closing hour their existence may arrive. This, in the a very numerous, and much the better portion of •working classes, is a benefit far surpassing aid, and one which they would willingly purchase, they had the certainty that their little hoardings we placed under the protection of Parliament, and the care of skilful management. Notwithstanding all that has beed said against the pertinacity of the Ministers in respect to the Silk Traf the wisdom of their policy is already beginning to felt. Our manufacturers, seeing that they must be yen to a competition with their neighbours, and ht declared that they had nothing to fear from their valry, are anxious to prove that such is really the ct It is certainly as good policy to take a lesson from 'rival as an enemy, and our master silk weavers V the Savings' of seven or It appears umencement the Savings' ital to the as. F which, not. ich the cowl. ,nd, than half nt time. To 11 'sum, less (forded suc. would other. If that pro. fished by fel. .1 the Insti. • sate that thei soot will be zing among ing by daily ittance of one spears by the ocieties, can, nonth, secure provision in hei provision fter 65, whe• a week ; and :ently the ex• using hour of . estimation of onion of the ,ing parochial r purchase, if >ardings were t, and under d against the he Silk Trade, ginning to be must be dd. a, and having from their ri• ally the case lesson from weavers art