Star. — London, England, 1812-01-18 00:00:00

half pf.r cent. fund no grant had been made for the last tour years. Mr. BRAND replied, the £70,000 left of the Prince's exchequer income would be left entirely at his own disposal. Mr. YORK observed, that £17,000 out ofthe sum wa; applied to the Princess of Wales, and the Prince had other private claims on the rest. Mr. FREEMANTLE thought the provision pro posed to be made for the King was dissatisfactory. The House had a straight-forward path to pursue. At the King's accession to the Throne, the House had entered into a contract with the King to allow him the Civil List, and had no power to take it from him, any more than it could the estate of a private individual. The House ought not to have separated tha Prince of Wales's civil and political duties. The whole Civil List should have been transferred to him; and, if necessary for his Majesty's comfort, the House ought to have granted £500,000 addition to the Civil List. The Resolutions were then 'oro.ight up, and agreed to, and a Bill ordered to be brought in pur suant thereto. NEWSPAPER .OBSERVATIONS. Mr. SHERIDAN wished t say a few words re- ; specting the Prince's Message in 1803. It appear ed that this had ofl only Int:en misunderstood by the Right Honourable Gentleman opposite (the Chan cellor of the Exchequer), but that it hid also been misunderstood out of doors, and in particular, that the Editor of .t re,pect morning paper had fallen into precisely the same mistake. With the permis sion of the House he would read the passage he alluded to. The SPEAKER asked thz! Right Hon. Gentleman whether it was his intention to make any complaint upon that subject to the House, as their time could tot be fruitlessly taken up with mere criticisms on occurrences out of doors ? As this was a very serious matter, he thought it was his duty to w.trn the Right Hon. Gentleman of the consequences. Mr. SHERIDAN said, he would not urge the matter farther. He hoped his conduct had always been sufficiently respectful to the Chair and the Henise. He could assure the Speaker, however, that in the course of his Parliamentary life, he had frequently known notice taken of minor misrepresentations out of doors, without the smallest intention of founding any specific complaint on them. The SPEAKER said, if such was the pleasure of the House, the Right Hollow able Gentleman might proceed. On this there were a few cries of " Question!" and the subject was dropped. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY. Mr. YORKE proceeded to move the Vote of Sea- men and Marines for be present year, which the Right Honourable Gentleman observed, no change having taken place in the interim, would be the same as list year, namely, 145,000 mo, including 35,1 , 00 znarines. The Right Honourable Gentleman pro. seeded to move the following Resolutions : £3045,661, for the Maiiitenatice of Stamen and Marines for 1813. £3,100 ; 000, for the Wear and Tear of the Navy for the year 1812; and, £649,750 for the Ordnance On the Motion of Mr. WztAttrox, the following 'urns were voted : £201.00, for the American Loyalists. 411,000, for American Emigrants. .69 ,000, to Cie St. Doming,is £2,062, to the Dutch Imigrams. .C 123,000, to the French Ciergy and Laity. £3,400, to the Frei ch Emigrants. £6OO, to the Irish Dissoring Ministers. vf1,700, to the Fitglish ditto. 5e12,000, to defray the Expences of Bow-street Police Office for 1813. .e70,g00, far support of Ccnvicts afloat. • ie50,000, for Lass! Expences for 1311. 5e21,000, for Printing for the Lords. 1C2,00:1, fur Printing the Votes of the House of Commons for 1811. ..e4,4F.7 .ss. 6d. for Deficiency of Bill for Printing for 18i0. Mr. TIERNEY here took an opportunity of ad verting to the expensive manner in which Reports and Plans for the inspection of Committees were printed, and particularly those on the Irish Bog Drainage, which, he said, were executed on the finest paper, the largest size, and at a most enormous expence. The SPEAKER was happy the attention of th , 2 House had been called to this subject; it had first been adverted to on the subject of the engravings for the Port Patrick Committee, and it was then ordered that no engr.ving for Committees should be on a larger scale than a folio sheet, but with his (the Spea ker's) consent; and to this rule he had always ad hered, unless convinced by the Committee that they could not understand the subject under consideration but on a Lager plan. The Bog Drainage, however, was not a Committee—it was a Poliamentary Com mission ; but he had not consented to the engravings being executed on the plan they had been, till it was represented to him to be absolutely necessary ; and that subdivisions were necessary, which would not have been d;stinguishable on a smaller scale. Mr. TiE RNEY wished he had possessed a plan, sts he was eoriain the subdivisions, if displayed by biro, would have been distinguishable in the gallery. ,—(if laugh ) , The next Resolution proposed was— - - . . £13,000, for Printing for the pre4 . ent ziessim. p,Sou, for stationary for both Kitties. 4E426, for examining East India Accounts. £Ol9, for the Expences of the Tnan.e. Pu:ic sE4,ti.lo, for the How-street Horse Patrole. And several wher Annual 'Votes. Tile Resolutions b2ing agreed to, th:! Report was ordered to be received to-morrow. TILE LOSS OP 11,12. ST. GEORGE, ETC. Mr. WHITBREAD wished to put a question to the Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Yorke), re specting the loss of the St. George and other ships in the Baltic ; he did not wish to impute any blame to • him, but to he informed how it happened that the large ships continued to so late a period in these dan ger, us seas. Mr. YORKE, in reply, said, the orders of the Ad miralty were, that all the convoys should be ready to s.sil by the Ist of November ; it appeared they were so, but were weather-hound, and nut able to attempt it till the 17ih; and er hiving weighed on that day, to the amount of 100 sail, a violent gale arose, and several of them ‘veie driven athwart the Saint Gen:ge,who in avoiding them ran on shore, unship .pcd her ru.ider, and sustained considerable damage ; hOWocri after r.. 61, as wel as she. cotsitl, proceeded under jury -masts, and so little apprehen sion did Admiral Reynolds entertain of her safety, that proceeded with all her crew, and a fortnight after was in the Sound, where the melancholy catas trophe took place ; the misfortune, however, was en tirely the effect of tbe.weather, :Ind circumstances which no human foresight could provide against.— All that could be done had been done by the Admi ralty, in provi,ling her with stores end all things ne cessny for the service she had to perform. . Mr. WHITBREAD expressed himself satisfied with the explanation just made. STATE OF THE MKTROPoLIS. Mr. Secretary RYDER said, that in ri,ing to call the attention of the House to the state of the nightly watch of the metropolis, it was not his intention to detain them for any considerable time. He must premise, that it the alarm which now pervades the metropolis, had merely rested on the circumstance of the horrible and atrocious murders lately commit ted on two whole families, he should nothave thought it adviscable on that account to bring forward any new general measure. He was convinced that no nightly watch or police could be so organised as to prevent the possibility of such crimes being commit. ted, it ruffians could be found in existence hardened and abandoned enough to commit them. That this was the case was evident, from the history of other countries, whose police was not restrained by those considerations which prevail in a free country, but which had all the power and resources of a military despotism. It was known by the gentlemen who had resided in those countries, that notwithstanding the extreme rigour of the police, bad men were still I found to perpetrate the most horrid crimes ; and atrocities, nearly equal to that of the murder of those two families, were nightly committed. The very alarm and dismay that the murder of those two families had occasioned in the metropolis, was of it self one of the best proofs of the extreme rarity of such enormity. At the same time, it was impossi ble to shut one's eyes to the fact, that there had been ' within the last two or three months a great increase of crimes of a nature somewhat similar, although not of so great enormity or so deep a dye. The num ; her of such offences greatly exceeded what it had done in former years—although at the same time he must observo, that many accounts which had found their way km the public papers were either untrue or much exag:.Terated. By the law of the country the nightly watch of the different parishes was placed in the hands of the parishioners themselves, and it was not until the year 1774, that any general law was made upon the subject. The parishioners were called upon at the different vestries to appoint trustees and directors of the nightly watch—and those trustees and directors appointed the wat:hmen and the officers who immediately superintended them. If the num ' her of crimes had increased, it must however be re , collected, that the extent and population of the me tropolis had also enormously increased of late years. It was the duty of the trustees and directors to ap point able-bodied men, and no other, Ia; the nightly watch ; but it was most notorious, that they were not usually persons of that description. They seemed on the contrary, to be often men who from age and i infirmity were incapable of obtaining a livelihood in any other way, and who were placed there rather as a provision fir themselves, than as a means of pro f viding security for the lives and properties of the in habitants of the metropolis. Besides the general man ner in which the nightly watch was appointed in this metropolis, he had also felt it his duty to turn his at , tention to the regulations which had been provided by different Acts of Parliament for the watching of par ticular districts ; and from thebest consideration which he could give to the whole of the case, he was of opi- Ilion, that instead of proposing any measure entirely I new, it would be sufficient to fortify and strengthen the principles which bad been hitherto laid down for the establishment of a nightly watch, correcting at the same time those abuses from which the weakness and inefficiencynow complained of entirelyproceeded. • The Legislature had, at various times, from various motives, thought it necessary to make different regu lations for different districts. The parish of Pancras, • for example, was divided into no less than seven dis tricts, every one of which had separate acts for the regulation of its nightly watch. In all those districts, !however, as well as in the several parishes of the me tropolis, the general principles of the system of the nightly watch were nearly the same ; and he saw no necessity at present for any great innovation in the present system. Instead of proposing, in the first in stance, any new measure to the House, he should move for the appointment of a Committee, to consi der tile state of the nightly watch of the metropolis, and the parts adjacent; and he should move, that all the members of London, Westminster, Middlesex, and Surrey, should b. members of that Committee. The first name lie should mention was Sir C. Price. On the question being put for the appointment of a Committee, Sir SAMUEL ROMILLY expressed his surprise, that, on a subject of such important interest, the Right Honourable Secretary had not thought it necessary to propose any thing farther than the appoinment of a Committee to examine the state of the nightly watch. No person who had witnessed the consternation and alarm which had recently pervaded the metropolis, could suppose that the dreadful crimes which had been lately committed proceeded merely from a de fective arrangement of the nightly watch. It appeared to hi m thzt the enquiry should be directed much farther, and that it should take in the great increase of felonies of late years, as well as the whole system of the po lice establishment. As to the great increase of crimes, he spoke only from common report, and from those common sources from which opinions were ge nerally formed,; hut from those sources of informa. tion, it appeared that the number of felonies had greatly increased in the last year, and that the crimes had assumed a more atrocious character than at any former period. The gradual and regular increase of crimes in the metropolis, might be judged from the returns which were on the table of the House, of the number of persons committed to stand their trials at the Old Bailey, for, felonies, during the la s t fi ve ycars. It appeared from those returns, that is the year 1806, the number of persons committed, was 899 ; in the year 1807, it was 1017 ; in the year • 1808, it amounted to 1110; in the year 1809, to 1342 ; and in the year 1810, the last year mentioned in those riturns, the number was 1424. It must be observed, too, that this regular and rapid increase of crimes had taken place during five years of war; although, in general, it is in the period of peace that most crimes are usually committed. War gene rally occupies those daring and enterprising spirits, who in times of peace are the mqst likely to commit crimes; and many of those characters, having been so occupied, of erwards turn out most useful and merite rious citizens. It would be well that the House should enquire what were the causes of so great an increase of crimes during a period of war? and if those causes were once ascertained, a more permanent remedy might be applied. He believed that the system of punishments which was so obstinately persevered in was a great cause of the increase of crimes. The punishment of death which was denounced by the laws for so many offences, was, in fact, but seldom inflicted. The mode of imprisoning persons of all descriptions promiscu ously, contributed, as he believed, very materially to the increase of crime ; as, if a person committed for some slight offence was thus compelled to associate with the most depraved and hardened offenders, there could be little chance of his reformation. He pecu liarly disapproved of the manner in which the con victs were imprisoned in the hulks ; and so far from any reformation being produced in the moral cha racter of the convicts by any thing they saw there, he considered them as colleges of vice, from which those who were discharged returned upon the public, fami liarized with the contemplation of the most atrocious crimes, and almost obliged by their necessities and desperate situation to perpetrate them. He had been informed that within the last year a great number of per sons had been discharged from the hulks, after having been imprisoned there for the term of their seetence. This circumstance might, of itself; be a very consider able cause of the great increase of crimes during the last year. He thought that some reforms in the cri minal law of the country would produce a considerable effect. Upon this subject he had already moved the House for the appointment of a Committer, and the re port of that Committee was now upon their table.— There was another subject which he thought was fully as necessary to attend to as the state of the nightly watch, and that was the state of the police of the me tropolis. He disapproved highly of the rewards which were given by individuals to the police officers, for the detection of offenders. Those rewards, as he conceiv ed, instead of preventing the commission of crimes, went rather to increase the number of them. It was the direct personal interest of those police officers not to check the commission of smaller offences, but to lie by until crimes were committed of such magnitude as to entitle them to the high rewards which are usually given on those occasions. As this waa their obvious interest, it was hardly to be expected, that men of their condition would act in opposition to their own interests, on any refined principles of moralty and public good. He understood from common re port, that individuals had no chance of recovering, by the exertions of the police officers, any property stolen from them, without offering very high rewards. He thought, that those rewards had the same opera lion with the Police Officers, as what was called ex pedition-money in the Public Offices. The one checked the exertions of the officers. and the other prevented expedition in the public offices, unless when tire rewards were paid. It was once in contempla tien to abolish altogether those rewards for the ap ptcheit3ion of offenders. It appeared to him however that the Police Officers ought not to share thersa— bat that they should in some cases be given to acces saries after the fact, to induce them to discover their more guilty accomplices. It was the bounden duty of the Police Officers to prevent crime, and appre hend offenders ; and their exertions in their public du ties ought not to be paid for out of the private purses of the individuals who have been robbed of their pro. perty, and who apply for their interference. At present it is said, that there is such a familiarity be tween the police-officers and the worst characters in society, that the former perfectly knew the offenders' haunts, and could find any man of them as ready as a merchant was to be found at the Royal Exchange. —As to what the Right Honourable Secretary had said of the frequency of such atrocious murders in cities under the strictest police, he must say, that he believed that lie was entirely mistaken. He had him self, at different times, resided in Paris, and never heard of any thing at all equal in atrocity to those crimes which had been recently committed. He be. lieved that very few Gentlemen could be found in that House, who, in any city in Europe (whatever might be the organization of the police), had disco vered that crimes like these were frequently commit ted. The Right Honourable Gentleman had merely alluded to the nightly watch ; but it appeared to him that he should have also considered the state of the police by day. It was not enough that the nightly watchmen should be stout able-bodied men ; but it was also necessary that the citizens should be pro tected in the day-time from those gangs of ruffians, who commit their crimes with the greatest audacity in the f ace of day. It appeared to him that the Right Hon.. Gentleman ought to have extended his consi deration to all those subjects,' instead of confining them merely to the nightly-watch. Mr. W. SMITH also thought that the Right Ho. nourable Secretary ought to have extended the ob jects of his inquiry, and he hoped that he would still be induced to do so. As to the horrible and barba rous murders lately committed en two entire families, it was certainly very possible that they might have been committed if the nightly watch had been under the best regulation ; and, indeed, it did not appear in those instances any blame could justly attach to the nightly watch. If a set of villains capable of com mitting such crimes was permitted to roam at large tl:rough this metropolis, such crimes might be com mitted without any fault of the watchmen. As long as such villains were in the metropolis, he hardly knew any other effect that even improving the con dition of the nightly watch would have, except driv. ing those ruffians into the environs of London, to commit their burglaries and crimes in places where there is no nightly watch. He really could not avoid feeling scandalized by the familiarity which is commonly supposed to exist between the Police Offi cers and the disturbers of the public peace. It is said that they commonly associate together, and drink at the same public-houses. If this be the case, can it be won dered at that enot mous crimes are committed, when offenders meet this sot t of countenance andencourage mem ? He knew some districts where the care and attention of some of the leading parishioners to the comforts of the -poor, had tended materially to dimi. nish the growth of crime. He could state as an ex ample, tint in the populous parish of Christ Church, '7' Spitalfields, the number of crimes was compara t i ve l y very small , and a great degree of decency of rnatspas s prevailed among the lower classes. A considerabi t reformation had been brought about in that distri ct by the great attention of the principal inhabitants and if they were equally attentive in other distri c t he thought a great reformation might take pl ace i ll the morals of the lower classes of the metropoli s ., He believed that certain regulatio is with respe c t e s public-houses, and to those characte:s which n i g h& infest the streets, might be productive of great vantage. In addition to those regulations for t h e s.ifety of the public, every thing should be done i s make the situation of the poorer classes comfortabl e . He conceived, that any reformation which could h e brought about in public morals would be far me te effectual for the prevention of crime than the increas e of the nightly watch. He thought, therefore, that there were many topics overlooked by the Right H e . nourable Secretary, to which he ought to have dim. ted his attention. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, he did not think it would be necessary k w bi n to trouble the House at any length ; but he wished i s make a few observations on what had fallen hie the Gentlemen on the opposite side of the House.— It was agreed on all hands, that in the present stab of the metropolis it was necessary something shook be done by way of Parliamentary provision. IL ; Right Honourable Friend had proposed a practiej remedy to a practical evil ; and though some Gee. tlemen might be of opinion that that remedy was* sufficiently extensive, yet he hoped they would sot therefore oppose what went a considerable way at least to remedy the evil which was so justly con. plained of. The Hon. Gentleman who spoke last had shewn, that in a certain very extensive parish, where riots and robberies had formerly been frequent, th e y had been almost entirely put an end to by the me now proposed, viz. a better and more effectual pro. - vision and regulation of the nightly watch. His Right Honourable Friend did not mean to say his plan should not go farther than what was included in the present motion ; but only that a Committee should he appointed to take the subject into coasids. ration ; and if they found on due examination, that their powers ought to be enlarged, they would nits. rally apply to the House for that purpose. He ft. ticed the argument urged by the Honourable He* her who spoke last as to driving the thieves and issh derers from London into the neighbouring towns sad villages; and observed, that the more perfect and is. tensive the remedy was which should be applied against such criminals in the metropolis, the ma likely would it be, that the Hon. Gentleman's sunburn of their retiring into its vicinities should be realized,. That objection, therefore, could not apply to the pas sent measure. The question before the House ittsd ved the whole of the metropolis and the neighbour. hood also ; and it was, he thought, very necessary.. a commencement of what, if deemed necessary, might afterwards be extended at the pleasure of the Hotam. His Hon. and Learned Friend (Sir Samuel Ronully) had particularly adverted to the moral depravity ea. gendered by persons being confined in certain pbes with others who were hackneyed and hardened in the ways of vice and wickedness ; but he could not sup• pose his Honourable Friend would wish to have Pr. nitentiary Houses provided by the present rams= He had no doubt but such places of secluded as, finement would be extremely useful, and highlyte. neficial to,the best interests of society; but it certaio• ly was not necessary, nor could it be expedient teak graft them on the present motion, which requiredlOe put into effect with as little delay, and with as simplicity, as possible. His Learned Friend hauls mentioned the propriety of putting an end tog;vig rewards to Police Officers in cases of conviction off& fenders taken by them. This wascertainly a matte of great consequence ; but a question might perhap arise, not whether the rewards alluded to should be abolished, but whether they ought not t,-) he increased? These might both be points well deserving efeonsids• ration; but perhaps they might be more satisfactorily disposed of in another way than by mixing them with the present question. The Hon. Gentleman who spoke last had particularly inveighed against the custom which he said so extensively prevailed, of policed'. cers mixing in company on the most familiar terms with known thieves and depredators of every de • tion." This might doubtless be wrong, but is wan.. tainly no novelty in the history of such characters; fit it was a fact known to every one, that such had ' the constant practice ever since the time of; Wild; and whe:her it was politic or impol:tic he not presume to say, but he believed it had not to cause a greater increase of crimes at the preseal riod than befetofore. The Hon. Gentlem.in ! found fault with the police officers for not more quently taking up certain descriptions of persons suspicion —but what Itood could they effect by doing ? What authority have they, except to them before a Magistrate ? and then after a time, unless som e p roo f can b e . b roug h t agar that Magistrate must discharge them. S' most desperate and atrocious charactr had, before the dreadful murder he after , posed to have perpetrated, been taken suspicious character, what could any Magi dope farther than to confine him a rev and if no evidence was then produce. he must have been discharged ? The ject which has created so much horror atrocious climes should have been committed individual : but, as the Hon. Gentlemar admitted, (Mr. W. Smith), no police watch could have prevented it, it was power of Government to prevent it. might unfortunately be lurking in any .houses—lie hoped they were not: but, ful and diabolical machinations they ma and cherish, remain in their own min( they keep them there without divuli others, no police or nightly.watch can feat them. The arguments made use of Gentleman opposite might be available an extension of the measure, but certai operate against it, so far as it went. therefore, the House would agree to the and if, when it sat, it might be thought powers might be enlarged. Mr, ABERCROMBIE said, his (Sir Samuel Romilly and Mr. William not said a word against the. motion, but did not go tar enough. The Right Hon. who had just sat down, had stated ser : such had hies ime of Jonathaa ?olitic he wadi lad not operated : the present's'. tlem.in had ✓ not more fnk , s of persoce ea y effect by • except to take after a cert. it against &Sp Suppose that cter, WilliaMl, etwards is sap n up as such.' Magistrate halt :asonable time; .d against hi* e particular dbo • was, that wit mmitted by va man had jam Ike or nightlf was not in the Such vi lal r of their oil • as the drea. may engendo ids, so long M Iging Mewl' prevent Or OP of by the Hai. le in favour tainly did Doe t. He hoPedr to Committee; tt necessary,ils Hon. Friend , m Smith) Isai st only that k on. Gentles's. :ver4 am.