Star. — London, England, 1806-05-29 00:00:00

ramingip A PARLMMENTARr PROCEEDIniGS. HOUSE OF LORDS, WEDNESDAY, MAY 28. Their Lordihips met at (.03, o'clock this day, purruant to ad journment. After pr3ve..4, ilrangerawcre ordered to withdraw. and th. ir Lorcifliips coAtinued in clofe dilcuiLon (it ls luppoled on Lord Melville& bait:cis) woUl.uiut o'clock, whui they adjsurucd UM 1414. HOUSE OF COMMONS. A Bill was prefented for repaid's& the Church, better Provid ing for the Poor, and for better Cie:mons and Lightive the Streets and Sqoares, and Repairing the Roods in the Pori& of St Mary, Wbittchapel; din, a Bill Sur Netter providing the Parith of Bow with Water; and likewife a Bill for completing the Surrey Iron Railway, by.enabling the Direction to borrow money on Loan, which were each read the Brit time, and ordered for 'the fecood trading on Friday next. A Petition was patented by Mr. SOTO ALT X ANDER, from the Merchants of Glafgow, againft the Bill now pending for with holding the Drawback on Foreign linens, exported from this country, which, with two other Petitions from other Merchant*, to the fame elk& were ordered to lie on the table, until the fe cond reading of the Bill, which, upon the motiou of Mr. FOSTER, was deferred till Wednefday next. Mr. HOBHOUSE moved to poitpone the fecond reading of the Nabob of Arcot's Debts Bill from Friday until hurfday next. •s-Ordered. A new Writ was ordered to be iffued for the Eledion of a Re pr4e. otative for the County of Sonterfet, in the room of W. Dick lama, Efq deceafed. Sir JOHN ANDERSON ptefented a Petition from the Carriers of London againft the Bill for repealing the Flaying Att.—Or dered to bean the table for the fecond reading of the UM. Lord TEMPLE moved, that the Houle do, at its riling, ad journ till Friday.--Ardered. The Houk, upon the motion of Lord TEMPLE, rrfolved into a Committee for taking into eonfideradon the Foreign Thread. Lace Duty Bill, and the propriety of toucans' the dueler thereon. Refolved, that it was expedient to thermic the feveral &Domina s tion of Dinka...Ordered to report on Friday. _ _ A Meffap from the Lords announced their Lord&fps' concur rence la the Ira Spirit Duty Bill, the Irilh Butter Regulation Bill, and feveral Private Bills, fent ups this Houk. An 06cer from the Department of the Secretary for Ira AG fain, prefimted, piquant to order, an Account of the Salaries in the Public Oakes in Ireland, with the immure and decreafe there of within • given period. Alfo, an Account of the amount of Notes of the Bank of Ireland in circulation, for the year ending the sth of April, ffilllngalthing each sputa., and the Notes under Ica—.Ordered to Ile on the table. Mr. SULLIVAN gave coder., that In confequence of fome allu- Sons nude by an Has Member (Mr. Whltfhcd Keeue), a few nights Sun, In a dfcsificei upon India Affairs, to the chandler of au if. re baronet, his edition, he Ibould, on Friday, move for the produdioe of fome papers upon that ruble& Mr. LATOLiCHE moved for ao Account of the Difpufal of go,cocl. voted by the Houle left Sef6on of Parliament to the Pro prietors of an Inland Navigation Canal in IrelantL—Ordcred. The London Flaying Bill was read the (nand time, and after a few Sion obiervations from Mr. ROSE, it was committed for to morrow to a Stied Committee up Rain; to whom alto the Peti tions againft the Hill were referred, and leave given to the Pitt. dawn to Se heard by their CounfeL Mr. Alderman COMBE gave notice, that he fhoold on Friday move for leave to bring in a Bill to Repeal the London Army of Referve Ad. The SECRETARY at WAR brought up the Innkeeper's Rate MD, which was read a Ertl time, and ordered to be read a Inland time on Friday next. Mr. ALEXANDER brought up the Report on the IriQs Stamp Duties Dill. Sir JOHN NEWPORT then gave notice, that he propfed to withdraw that claufe which granted a duty on Entrie.. from I re laud to great Britain • and that be would, on Friday next, propule time other tax to pr ovide for the defalcation which would thus be pro duced. On the motion of Mr. VANSITTART, the Houle refolved itfelf Into a Committee, to confider of the Clarks to be panted to the new Auditors of Account!. ; audit was refolved, that a fum not ciceedlog tet,ol. a year be granted to the Brit Comma/Some, and soool, to the others ; and that, if fent to the Weft Indies the Lords of the "I marry be empowered to grant Soot additionJ a year. Report to be received on Friday. Mr. ALEXANDER brought up the Report on the Sum to be granted to the Officers and Seamen who were in the engagement of Trafalgar; width was agreed to. ADMIRAL lIR RICHARD STIACHAN. Mr. SPEAKER acquainted the Node, that in m.fwer to the communication of the Th.vdis of the Houle voted to Admiral Sir Richard Strada*, and the Officers, Seamen, and Marines under his commas:d i for their gallant Cervices &viva the enemy, he had received a Letter from that Officer, dated onboard the Cathie, at fea, icith May, iffo6, and which be Would read. The letter, in fubftance, acknowledging the receipt of the letter from Mr. Speaker, communicating to Sir Richard the honour done him by the Houle of Commons in their Vote, approving the Cervices of himrelf, and the Officers and Seamen under his command, that he thould fed fincere *afore in performing the duty eatrufted to him, of communicating the fenfe of the Houle of Common. to the Officers, Seamen, and Militia, under his commands and as to hinifelf, he begged leave to exprefs his hope, that his rea diners on all oecafions to devote his life to the (mice of his Country, would prove him nut unworthy the honour contented upoa Limn - - - - Mr. YORKR 'salted to call the attention of the Secretary at War to a circumitance within his department, relating to an or der or the Houk, made fo long fince as the t3th of April, for Returns of the State of the Army of this Country in each year, from the lath September, 1774, to the fame date In 1781. It was the period of the American war, and the document was receffary to be before the Houk, preparatory to the difeuffion which was sipedied on Friday. The SECRETARY at WAR anfvrered, that owing to the fre• quent removal of Papers from one depoGtory to another, once the period mentioned by the Hon. Gentleman, much difficulty bad oc curred in making out the returns already laid before the Houk, in putfuanee of limikr modem. He feared that through the fame ,auk, the means of complying with the HOG. Gentleman's mo tion oo this paint bad been 1011. IMFRACHMENT OF LOAD WELLESLEY. Mr. PAULL, purfoant to the notice he had given, rote to bring forward his promifed charges againtt the Marquis Wellefley, with reference to his con duo to the Nabob of Oude. It was not his with, he laid, to trefpafs unneceffarily upon the time and attention of the Houfe. The charges he meant to fubmit to their confideration he had written, and were in his hand ; lie would read them if it was the pleafure of the Houle, or, with their permillioni he would move, without reading them, to lay them on the table. . . Mr. SPEA KER anfwered, the llnn.Member might life his own difcrction, and had certainly a right, if i.e chafe. to ufe his privilege of laying them on the t.hle. Mr. PAULI. immediately did fo, and moved that they•be now read by the Clerk. The charges were read accordingly, and occupied ui.wards of an hour; the flatement commenced in ecapitulating the local and political fituation of the e °wary of Oude, as an independent State under the Nibob, its Prince, in extent equal to Englan4 and Wales, with a population of many millions ; con taining many rich and fertile dittrials, with a num ber of populous towns and villages ; its capital, Lucknow, as large as London and We flminfler. and t ivally crowded with inhabitants; that the Nabob lived in a a* of wealth, Sate, and fplendour fupe riot to any European Prince; that his jewels alone were worth four millions flerling, that he had 500 elephants in his train, with a military eflablifltment of t 1.000 horfe and 30,000 foot, exclu6ve of the police. —lt then detailed a general outline of the minuter !.t inches of Geranium, and mode of collating taxes, and recapitulated the vat ious treaties entered into with the Nabobs of Oude by the Britifh Gover nors in India, down to the arrival of Marquis Wel lefley ; it then proceeded to nate a variety of charges againft the Noble Marquis, accufing him of having, without any jolt caufe or provocation. contrary to the ex prefs orders of the India Company, without the eontaltation or confent of his Council, and in open violation of folernn treaties (ablating with the Nabob of Oude, made exorbitant claelions of money from him, demanded of him the fill-render of territory guaranteed to him by folemn treaty, frequently urg ing him to difband hi; army, and treating him with fo much difrefpen and re verity as were calculated to induce him to reap his throne ; and when, by the frequent exactions made upon him, his revenues were inadequate to fupply farther means, the (aid Mar quis not only committed against him new aft' of hollility and indignity, but endeavoured to degrade him in the eyes of his fubjeels, and to excite them to difobedienee and infurreelion. The charges coo tained a variety of other accufations of a Dill graver nature ; and upon the reading being concluded, Mr. Paull moved, that the Paid charges be printed. Sir ARTHUR WELLESLEY would not object to the printing, but withed the Honourable Gen tleman would infirm the Houfe how he meant to proceed ? No anfwer was given. Mr. W. KEENE Paid, he apprehended, that Gen tlemen had in general formed a very incarreet idea of the Sovereignty in India when they compared the Nabobs and Viziers with the Kings of Sardinia, Na. plea, and other European Powers, whole prefervation is connected with the intereli. of Europe. No fuch fyftem as that was known in India. The tenure there was entirely by the (word, and a Prince held his do minions only until Tome other Prince, ftronger or more fortunate, &mild be able to difpofiefs him. Mr. FRANCIS would not allow, that Princes in India' do not hold their dominions b the fame jolt and lawful tight that the European Sovereigns have to their territories. He was afraid, indeed, that in point of fait, the (word was fuperior to every other right known in India ; but then it was the Britith (word. It was upon the dilrolotion of the Mogul Empire, that tbefe Nabobs and Villers obtained their power, but Dill they had enjoyed it for a confiderable number of years, and this country had concluded many treaties with them as Sovereign Princes, The violation of thefe treaties would be not only a viola tion of their acknowledged rights, and of the general principles of juilice, but it would be a violation of the 'authority of that Houfe and of the Legidature of this country. Some of there treaties had alto been recog nized by other Powers. in the Treaty of Paris, con eluded in 1763, France, as well as England, acknow ledged the Soubador, er Nabob of Arcot, as Nabob of the Carnatie. Mr. Secretary FOX Paid, that if there were fome in that Houfe who confidered that the Indian Prin ces had not the fame right to their own dominions as the Sovereigns of other countries, he hoped that the number was but (mall. However thou might have been the duration of their power, or however precari ' ous its tenure, their rights were not at all affefh - d by thefe confederations. With refpea to us, who made treaties with them as Sovereign. Princes, they muff be conftderod in the light of Sovereign Princes. He knew, indeed, the length of poffeffion, the attach ment of their (objects, and the fancied fecurity of their tenure, were circurallances which would ferve as matters of aggravation, in telling the (tory cf Princes difpoffeiTed of their former power but thttfe circumftances fhould go for nothing in the queftion of the right that thefe Sovereigns had to be confidered as Sovereign Powers, by thofe who had treated with them as fueh. And if there was any circumftance which could more [honey claim than right, it was the eircumftance Rated by his Hon. Friend, of the Britifh (word being fo powerful in India. If we were fo all-powerful in that country. there would be an additional call of duty and honour to fupport the compaas we had entered into. So far from our power farationing a violation of our Treaties, it would be a great aggravation of the difgrace of violating treaties folemnly entered into. He eroded this would be the general (entiment of the Houfe, and of almoft every thinking Member that cornpoted it. Atter a few words from Mr. BANKES, the Paper was ordered to be printed. ' Mr. PAULL gave notice, that on Friday lie fhould move for papers refpeling the feizure of the territo ries of certain other Rajahs. The Papers would not be long, and could be eafily made out. Sir ARTHUR WELLESLEY thought that after twelve raontlir had paired glace this bufinefs was firft introduced, and after fuch a number of Papers had been granted, the Honourable Gentleman ought not to make more delay, by moving for additional pa pers. If thefe papers fhould be of any material im portance, he might make them the fubjea of a f&Oa• rate charge. Mr. ROBERT THORNTON (aid, that the Papers which the Hon. Gentleman had now moved for were eafy to be made out, and would not be longer than thole already produced about Ferruckalaad. He confidered thole Papers as very material to the charge which had been read this night, but did not think them fufficieutly material to ground a feparate charge upon. After a limit converfation between Mr. Pau t.,. and Sir ARTHUR W LLLLL Lev, it was underfiond that the difenflion of the charge would take place on this day ('tree weeks, if no particular circumftance Humid make it neceffary to poftpone it longer. MUTINY BILL. The SECRETARY at WAR moved the fecond reading of the Mutiny Bill, which . was accordingly read a fecond time. On his propofing that it fliould go into a Committee on Friday next, • Mr. PERCIVAL withed the committal of it fhould be pontroned till Monday. There were numbers of Gentlemen who would with to attend the Houfe &ging this (ltge of the Bill, who could not conve niently attend, on account of the holiday week not bring yet over. This fubjed was intimately connect ed with others which would be brought on. He hoped that the /tight Hon. Secretary would not ob ject to granting them an etiimate of the expence of the new arrangements for the Chelfea Pentioners. The SECRETARY at WAR could not fee how tbefe eflimates were neeetrary for the difcuUion of the Mutiny Bill. Mr. WINDHAM faid, that although the expence of the fiflem to be propofed molt certarnly be a mat ter of confideration, yet he could not fuppofe that it would be neceffsry to give more than a general fort of ellimate at fit% When what was called the great alterations that were to be prepared fliould be taken into difeuffion, they would be debated upon other principles, and a little more or a little lefs in the ex pellee of the rytlem, would not be a principal argu ment either for its adoption or rejection; he there fore law no neceaity for the delay that would be oc csfioned by waiting for eflimates. After a few words from Mr. PERCIVAL and Lord CASTLEREAGH, the 13111 was ordered lobe committed for Friday. PRO ?li ITT TAX SILL. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved the order of the day for the third reading of the Property Tax Bill. . FRANCIS tinted, that he willed to be in formed. whether that was the proper time for him to itate his objeetion to a very important claufe in the Bill—that which exemp:ed Foreigners from the Tax. The SPEAKER informed the Honourable Ment he', that if he objeCted to the principle of the Bill, his time would be before it was read a third time; but if he had any claufe to bring up or to expunge, he might move for it after the third reading. Mr. FRANCIS then Paid, he fhnuld wait until after the third reading.—The Bill was accordingly read a third time. Mr. VANSITTART moved certain claufe to be added to the Bill, by way of riders. The firft claufe ' was for exempting Commiffioners of the Income Tax from being Paint Offices, or being obliged to terra on Juries. Sir ROBERT BUXTON thought that Magi ftrates would have an equal right to be exempted. Mr. VANSITTART Paid, that the reafon of the exemption was, that when Gentlemen [tumid under. take gratuitoully fo troublefome an office for the pub lic fervice, it was but fair to exonerate them from Come other burdens.—The claufe was agreed to. The fecondclaufe was, that the affeffinents ttoold not be fufpended on account of the former offa -1 ments not being completed. Mr. JOHNSTONE conceived that this claufe might create • very great hardfhip. in obliging peo- Pie one year to pay 161 per cent. on their whole 111COINC‘ The oblation was anfwered by the CHANCEL LOR of the EXCHEQUER and Mr. VANSIT. TART, who thought if it were not Cu, a issras world be given to thofe who had evaded the *ferment. This claufe was alto agreed to, as was alto another, brought up by Mr. ANSITTART, for facilitating the afferments for former years, and a ciente for enabling the India Company to flop the tax from the intereft of bonds iEued after the 3otb of September, So 6. Mr. FRANCIS Paid, that the firfl thing which fuggefted to him the idea of refillance to the claufe, was an obfervation made by an Hon. Gentleman, that if the exemption was not granted, foreigners would be induced to withdraw their money from this country. The fame opinion was alto held by a Right Honourable Friend of his (Mr. Fox): but as neither of them car, ied conviftion to his mind, he felt it his duty to Rate his fentiments upon the fubjea. tweets there two Gentlemen he found himfelf placed between the hammer and the anvil ; but as his objea was to allia the Government in the collation of the taxes, he hoped the Minillers would at lean give him Tome indulgence, and Rate his oblations in a more forcible manner than he was himfelf capable of do ing. It was one great quality of a Right Honoura ble Gentleman (Mr. Pitt) now no more, to Rate, with great force, the arguments of his adverfaries, though he did not always refute them; and he hoped hi. fucceffors would, in that refpat, follow his exam• ple. There were three points of view in which he fhould confider this fubjea. Fiat, as to its policy and political effeas ; fecond, the inconvenience that would attend its operation, and the opening it would give to abufes; and, third, the effential juftice of the . cafe. To afcertain the policy, it would be right to know the amount of the rum that was propofed to be given up; and he found that, by the return made on the 6th of the prefent month, it was Rated to amount already to forty or fifty thoufand pounds, exclufive of feveral other accounts that were daily coming in. Taking therefore the real and fraudulent property held in the names of foreigners, he thought it would not be too much to Rate it at an hundred thoufand posuids. The fear of foreigners being induced to fell out, or withdraw their property, he treated as chimerical. They invefted it in our funds Irons mo. lives as well of convenience as fecurity. Many of them alto did it upon (peculation ; and people in France and at Amfterdam were known to deal in our funds, in the fame manner as jobbers in 'Change illey : They bought in in time of war, when the Rocks were low, and foldout to great advantage, on the conclufion of a peace. It was, betides, nn trifling confideratinn, that the interell of all this money wee yearly remitted, and (pent in France and Holland in fupport of the Government of Bonaparte; and on I that ground, at leaft, it would fcarcely be contend ed, that foreigners were properly entitled to an ex emption. Coming, then, to the abufes, in the cafe of not being able to diflinguifh what was really and fraudulently held in the names of foreigners, he Paid it was Rated to him, from very good authority, that there were great fume, tinder that mark, exempted from the duty. There was one circumflance which ought, in this cafe, to be attended to ; namely, that in the French revolution there were feveral of the natives who found it neceffary to remain in that country for Tome time, who remittsd money here to be inveßed in the funds. For that purpofe French agents were employed, who bought in the flock in their own names, and when the real propri tors came to apply for it, they found, that legally, they were entitled to nothing. Thofe who inverted It in their own names kept it for themfelves, as the tranfantions, from the circumtlences of the times, were necelfarily confidential ; and furely fuch per• foils fhould rather be fubjefled to a double or triple tax, than be thought deferving of exemption. The next point was, to confider whether this was real and fubßantial juflice ? but he could nut find it in any' compaft between the Government and the Proprie. fors of Rocks. It was true, that the AQ of the reign of Queen Anne Itipulated, that property in the (rinds fhould not be made liable to taxes, as far as re. garded that loan. But if that was really a con tra& it was violated by this Bill ; and by granting this boon to foreiocre a the Houf would be doing injullice to the Engin holders. Why koala taxes. be impoled at all 1 Of courfe to fupport the Go vernment. And why was the Government to be (upported ? In order to enable it to prated our per font and our properties. In doing this, however, it protected the property of foreigners, as well as others,. and, therefore, they had alfo a duty to fupport. The perfons, indeed, of many of them could not be pro becaufe they were not here; but if a foreigner refided in this country, he would be liable to the tax, though he had 'elided abroad he might claim this exemption. Thisbe could not but confider as a moft unreaforiable diflindion. The foreigners refident 1 abroad drew as income from this country to flreng ' then and fupport the Government of a formidable enemy, who, were he enabled to execute his projeds of invalion, would, together with all other property, deafly alfo the property of foreigners, at prefent protected by this Government. He had next to take notice of an argument that may be employed againh him, namely, that there foreigners ought not to be taxed, beeaufe they were not reprefented. lie was Cure that was a principle that would never hold in practice, however well it may appear in abated or fine (pun theories. The male of the people in Eng land. whatever may 'await)! be the cafe, were not gamily reprefented in Parliament, as they had ao votes in the choice of Reprefentatives ; and if a fa trivet refided here, he would not be fo much as coca virtually reprefented, though be would be held liable to this tax. On an octillion of great moment, in the difpute between this country and America, a man et great weight (the late Mr. George Grenville) main tained, that as the Parliament of England has a right to make laws for this country, fo had it a right to impo(e taxes on America. For his own part he was of a different opinion, and was glad the Ameri cans [refined a claim of fuch injuftice ; but after having mentioned the authority of Mr. G renville, he did not expert to hear any of his defeendants or te prefentatives in that Houfe alerting that this coun try had no right to tax the property which it pro. teded, belonging to foreigners. In fupport of thit part of his obfervations, he adverted to the petition • of the " Friends of the People," of whom, he kid, be was the lag. That petition Rated to the Houl, that the majority of the People of England were not fully reprefented in Parliament, ar.i that they were ready to prove it. if the Houfe would allow it. To thew this was no mean authority, he Rated, that thofe who were moll alive in the formation of that fociety, at the honfe of the Earl of Lauderdale, and afterwards in drawing up the petition, were Tome of ) i the perfons now highell in his Majelty's Councils , Cush as the prefent Lord High Chancellor. the pre- I fent Falk Lord of the Admiralty, the prefent Trea. Curer of the Navy, as well as his predeceffor, the pre fent Attorney General, Lee. Mr. Pitt elk, as likewife the Right Hon. Secretary of State (Mr. Fox), were Ilrenuous in promoting a reform in Parliament, on the ground of the People not being fairly reprefented —but fo far were any of them from laying that the people had not therefore a right to pay taxes, that . , they all declared the Legiflature was as much entitled to their obedience. as if the Houfe of Commons was conflituted in the manner they witted it to be. He then 'lured the Houfe, that if he was not ferious in his nppolition to this claufe, he fhouid never have put , himfelf in his prefent fltuation. If he had fatisfied them of the inpiltice and inconvenience of the mea lure, he would next exhort them to look to the fitua. Lion of the country in refped to taxation. The fink lax of the left budget, upon pig iron, though eftimated at soo,oool. being nearly half the iniereliof the loan, was, from neceffity, abandoned, and he apprehended the fubhitute for it would notprove much more accept. able. He lamented, that on this oteafion be could not recalled the eloquent language of Mr. Whitbread, on the dole of the proceedings upon Vifcount Melville'; impeachment, where he reprefented, how every fum diverted from the public fervices muff be made up by pence and farthings. daily deduded from the Rif , tenapce of the . poor ; for lively an exemption to fo great an extent mull contraft the pittance of the indigent, while it was given to perfons who had no Claim whatever to it,—He concluded with moving, " that the claufe be omitted." Mr. FOX was convinced that his Hon. Friend wag satiated by the bell intentions in propofing his pre fent motion,though fomething like a tone of reproacti teemed to run through his (peach. It would be fro• pnffible for any man to believe that his Majefly's Differs were influenced by any peculiar tendernefs for foreigners, in propofing to exempt their funded pros, perry from the tax. They could only be alluated by I what appeared to them juft and politic. The prefent meafure, confidered with regard to its policy, would have the cleft of difcouraging foreigners from veiling their property in the Britillt funds, or of in ducing them to withdraw it altogether, and therefore mull ultimately be injurious to this country. Their motives for preferring the Britifh funds were their fitperior fccurity, together with the high rate of in• terca which they derived from them ; but the 'Hon. Gentleman teemed defirous of removing there mo• tives at once. He had alto given them the invidious name of (peculators, and had obferved, that daring the American war they had bought in when the funds were low, and had fold out at the eoneluficra of pew, to great advantage. But every man who porehafed an eltate with the view of rendering it more valuable, might equally be confidered as a fpeenlator, and he could not fee how the conduit of foreigners, in this in. • Rance, (hould draw upon them the refentment of this , country. Unlefsfpecul.tions of this kind were left un fettered,the whole funded fyftem would be annihilated. One great advantfge of that fyftem was, that any man could invett his property without rifle or delay, and could buy in or fell out whenever it faked his con. venience. And as it was defirable that foreigners lhould purchafe into our funds, he confidered it as exceedingly impolitic to fubjeft them to the ta.e. The. Hon. Gentleman had dwelt upon the frauds that would be predate!, in vetting domeffie property in the names of foreigners, and it was certainly poffible that fuch frauds might take place ; but it was to be ob lerved, that the property rax had now exulted for three years, and frauds had not been hitherto dikovered. He could not help thinking, that there was little dan ger of the defalcation of the tax from fraudulent prat aces in that way. The Britifh creditor mutt be aware of the confequences that might enfue from them . Suppok the foreigner, in whore name the property was fraudulently veiled, to die, the property would de(cend to his heirs, and according to the laws of the country tin which he refided. In regard to the jut I f