Star. — London, England, 1806-05-14 00:00:00

PARLIA NE vTART J. Roc ADDY GS. HOUSE OF LORDS, TUESDAY, MAY 13. Houle proceeded, aa ufual, to Weltntlofter HalL They returned foots after thrce, when an Order waa made to proceed further on the Trial oel.ord Vikount to•morrow, and a Merge kat to the Houk of Continona to acquaint them there- with. The Order of the Day on the Slave importation Reftridion Bill was dirchartcd, on the motion of the Duke of CLARENCE, and 'encased for Friday. The Weil India and American Trade Bill was read a third time and paired, and a Meffage fent to the Houle of Cunt:non, to ac quaint t►em therewith. Strangers were for a wort time excluded whilit the Route dB . - cuffed (nine matter of privilege. After our re admilßon, the Earl of WESTMORELAND pre tented a Petition from certain Merchants and Traders of Mrnehel ter agalnft the Slave importation Reitrietion Bill, which was or clued to lie co t►e table. Stripier. were spin for a fhort time excluded. After our re-401111(1Jan, the confederation of hia Majefty's Mef. foie relinkre to Erna Neiron was, on the motion of Lord AUCK LAND. deferred dll to-morrow. Adjourned. He contended, that the A& produced at the nte of to,ooo men a-year, in addition to the orebnun re cruiting. He could not, therefore, content to give it up till fomethiog better was offered. We ought to provide for extraordinary cafes, as, in the event of invation, the army might Irrfe 13, so, or 30,000 men in a battle. He infided, that further informa tion and details ought to have been laid before the Houle. The Right Hon. Gentleman had been tail: taken as to the limited fervice of the French army, under the old Monarchy, but if he was to adopt the model of the French army at all, he woeld rather take it as it was now. The giving up the ballot for the Militia was the moll extraordinary idea that ever wag heard of. If the Minitlers themfelvesfhould do it without an AO of Parliament, and it firould be found impotEble to raife the Militia at the commencement of a war, he had no hefitation in laying they delerved to tole their heads. Mr. EYRE had once thought this a good Aa,but it had failed in all its proviflons. It only obtained men by means which it was its objea to fupprefs.— All that he had heard in favour of this Aft ferved only the more arongly to convince him that it was a bad one. .It had been explained by military officers, who certainly had explained it rather for the crimp than the parith officer. This he thought naconaitu tional and improper. AG long as this was in force, men could not be provided under 26 guineas each— and five millions would be expended in bounties only. —This was a bad meafure, therefore, in a financial point of view. The plan of the Right Honourable Gentleman would improve the charaaer of the Army, and he had the molt faaguine hopes of its faeces. Mr. Secretary WINDHAM did not conceive he was called upon to go into any arguments upon the Cubic°, nor indeed to account for his filence, for which a fort of contumacious reproach had been call upon him by the Honourable Gentlemen oppo lite. They had, in die courfe of the debate, intro duced collateral topics, which did not prefs upon the fubjed. They had affumed to themfelves the right of canvaffing the whole of the military meafures in tended to be adopted, which he and his friends had no objedion to allow were as bad as the Gentlemen on the oppofite fide might chafe to confider them, referring only to themielves the right of filence.— They had as it were invited a number of guells to an entertainment unbidden, while the mailer of the hunfe was abfent. The Noble Lord on a former de bate had produced a variety of papers to prove his talk for the meafure, like Sir Roger De Coverley, who had a mile for roan beef, and becaufe his ap. petite was Co beefifh, concluded every other perfon mull have a lirnilar taße. Unluckily, however, for the Noble Lord's argument, the papers commented on did not begin till twelve months after the Bill had paffed into a law. It had never been heard of in the country, nobody knew what litcl become of it. The firft intelligence which was gained was from Lord Hawkefbury's letter of the 31a December.— The letter and the papers were a fort of coroner's inquell upon the Bill to know how it came by its death (A laugh). The manner in which Knitters I had proceeded with the Bill reminded bim of frame modern novel writers, with this difference, however, I that by way of entertaining their readers the Noble ; Lord and his friends fet out in the firft volume with the death of their hero; proceeding on, they find out that he is not quite dead, and in the fecond volumes I they all as a fort of humane fociety, and employ I their refureitative powers to reftore him m life ; they I begin by rubbing and applying their bellows, and . ufing every means to call him into ;idiom. (Loud laughing from all part: of the Nomfe.) It was in vain ; to difcufs the Bill. After two debates (by the bye t not half debated), they then come with their aroma. tic herbs, and endeavour to bring out the fweets by , rubbing and rubbing them in their hands, but wais t out effeet. The Bill was in fad any thing but what it purported to be, viz. " a Bill for providing a per , manent additional force." The tendency of it was to fupply the cafualties to the amount of siooo within the year ; but it was intended to go to a greater amount ; it would be found a lofing concern, and . would diminilh its quota ; at leaft the quota would be reduced to gooey and the cafualties only on that number would be fupplied. To fay nothing of its demerits, this was the Bill which was to lay a foun dation for fupplying the army with a permanent and difpolaible force for the prefent, and for time to come. It had been contended that it was fuccefsful ; but how was it fuccefsful ? The papers to which the Noble Lord had referred would Thew that it was fo far fuccefsful, that it fucceeded in cutting off the or. dinary means of recruiting. Every line of thole pa , pets would prove the evil of giving high bounties.— Was it not evident, both by oral tellimony delivered in this Houfe, and written documents, that the Bill was meeting and counterading itfelf in every Rep which was taken under it. The Honourable Gen. tleman had Paid it was a main addition to the army ; but he mull contend it was a derogation. The powet which it gave was mifchievous, and its influence was money, operating through the medium of oppreffion. The (Viola morum to whom it was entrufled, the pa rith officers, thofe grave and fad men, as they had been defcribed, had come, hot with turfing and fwearing, but like Serjeant Kite, ringing " Come all who with to lead merry lives, " By getting rid of brats and wive*, " 'tart and enter Into pay, " And then—over the hills and far away." (Loud laughter).—After all this depravation of cha rafter and condo& on the part of the parifh officers, it was probable that they would not be very fucceff: ful in their new profeflion with the Cylar Peanut:dm and Tummu: Appleirets of their village, on account of that unlucky " we ;" " we (hall lead more happy lives." There was a Rory of two French Officers, who, in addreffing their men, differed in this point : the one Paid " Go ;" the other " Let us go," and the men liked the one who laid, " Let us go," much better than the other. In the fame way, if a confla• ble were to come up to a young lad, and tell him, ,4 Come, my lad, you (ha'nt any longer brufh your mailer's coat, nor carry your miffreib's cloak and pattens to church on a Sunday—you are a fine lad— I can tic preferment written in your face—you [hall be a Gent/man foldier, and I would underwrite you for a Colonel at lean—you ought to be a foldier— there is no life like a foldkr's." The fellow would very naturally reply, "Mr. Conflable, if a foldier's life is fo very pleafant, why were not you a foldier ?" Upon the fame principle the Judges and Whops might be feat about to prt4b the dottine of a (bort life and a merry one. It really appeared to him, that parilh officers matt not entice young men lb eater the army without deftroying the mo rals of their parifhioners, which it was their duty to voted.' He was aware, however, that Come Gentle men would call it merely philofophical and fentimen. tal, to fpeek of morality and jußice in the manner of railing men for the army. He hoped, however, that the Houle would not be of their opinion, but would confider it a molt ferions oblation to any military plan, if it could not be executed without a havock of the morals of the country, and without injullice and oppreffion. There were Gentlemen who appear. ca entirely indifferent about the means, provided men could be got. Their fentiment was like that rant, "Ye gods I annihilate both (pace and time. and make two lovers happy." But whatever confi dence they profeffed in their fchernes for railing men, experience had thewn that they were inefficient. Al though the path% officers were fo Ilupid and incapa' Isle of under/landing the Bill, there was one who, it feem,, molt perfectly underltood it. This pad& ffi cer lived in Leicaterthire, and by his knowledge of the Bill he made pretty pickings for himfelf, proba bly about fifty guineas a week, fur a confiderable time. In thort, this famous recruiting parifh officer was one of the molt cape, ienced crimps in the whole county. It was aßonithing that this Bill thould have been fo generally mifunderftood, when chore who brought it in had taken Co much pains to protell that their objed was to get men and not money. The reafon that it was mifunderßood was this: thole who were to execute it, knew from the beginning that it was utterly impoltible that it could procure men at the bounty that was fixed, and they therefore thought money mutt be the real objet. The impoffibility of railing the men could be feen by ruftics as well as Statefinen, and could be as well judged of in a coun try veltry as at Downing &at. As to the claufe about refunding, he thought it neceffary, to avoid injuftice and oppreffion. It was a maxim in law— " News tender ad intopik."—ln this cafe there was an impoffibility of raifing men, and therefore it would be unjult that penalties fhould be int:lifted for not doing what was impoffible to have been done. Mr. PERCIVAL objected ftrongly to the claufe which went to reflore the penalties, and raid that it would be attended with the molt mirchievons and de grading effees, when the Right Honourable Gentle. man's plan failed, ani we thould be again forced to have recourfe to eompulfion. He thought this was holding out encouragement to difobedience, and ob. ferved, that he ought to alter his phrafeology, and, intlead of " be it enacted" fay " be it fubmitted " He Paid it was the worn policy that could be conceiv ed to revile the ballot, the principle of which it might be neceffary to refort to next year. With regard to the iojunice of impofing . penalties in there cafes, he contended that the principle already prevailal in the militia, and that it was no new one. He Rated that the bill fought to be repealed, grew 'out of the army of referee bill, under which many parithes had bal loted for 30 and 4o men. If it was jai to return the penalties in the prefent intlance, they ought to be given up under that bill alto. If they thould be obliged to have recaurfe again to compulfory fer vice, what language could they hold to parithes in this fituation ? He believed in his confcience the Right Honourable Gentleman had not at this mo ment read the bill he wirned to have repealed. If fo, why did he Rate it as a meafure intended only to raife gOOO in any event, whereas it was intended to keep up a force of 58,000 men. He begged of his Ho. nourable and Learned Friend the Attorney General, to obferve, that he would afterwards be told that this bill was introduced during his Minißry, and that he mutt aofwer for what it contained. He prefurned the Right Honourable Gentleman confidered it as the perfeaton of human reafon, in the fame way as it was once argued that human genius might be brought to fuch a pitch, that a plough put into a field on t h is improved principle, might be capable of performing its bufinefs without affittance. Yet Co much bad the Right Honourable Gentleman even doubted of this immaculate prolluelion of his, that he had laR day in the Committee introduced a claufe, authorifing its repeal or alteration within the !anon. He hoped this would thew the Right Honourable Gentleman that he ought to be a little more merciful in treating the errors of others. He underttood that a Gentleman cf molt approved knowledge in the framing of bills, was Rill retained by the prefent Minillers (Mr. Ab bot), but Rill faults would be found in every fuch performance. The bill fought to be repealed, was prepared under the eye of a perfon now no more, who, though of a molt capacious mind, was obferved to be particularly verfant even in this inferior depart. ment. Who had, as the Right Hon. Gentleman himfelf had happily expreffed it, " a mind like the proborcis of an elephant, equal to the pulling up of a tree, or to the picking up of a pin." A (mall claufe, as a rider, would be neceffary to this magni. ficent car of the Right Honourable Gentleman, which would be fo far ufeful as it would bring him down to the level of other people, whom he treated with fo little ceremony. Mr. WINDHAM explained that he had never made any declaration as to the total abolition of the ballot. Mr. SHERIDAN admired the dexterity and mi litary fpirit with which the Gentlemen on the other fide had uniformly advanced in fupport of the Bill fought to be repealed. They leaned at fiat to have held a Military Council, and, of all things, to have refolved not to meddle with the Bill itfelf—to attack the meafures of the Right Honourable Secretary, but to let the merits of the Bill alone. That was their conduft on the fira day. On the fecond day, the debate was opened by an Honourable General, who confined himfelf to the civil part of the Bill, and re ferved the military part to another oceafion ; and, on the lath day, they had omitted both civil and mili tary—the Honourable and Learned Gentleman con fining himfelf to an oblation to one particular claufe in the Repeal Bill. The fame line he had obferved this night, and, according to his own Ratement, had entered into a moil unneceffary argument, by difcuf fing a fubjeft which he had completely argued before. As to the fuppofed error in his Right Hon. Friend's Bill, he thought a triumphant notice of this kind came with a peculiar bad grace from perfons who had taken TO months to underftartd their own Bill.— lie cutfeffed the obligation under which the prefcnt Minitlers lay to the Honourable and Learned Gen tleman for his kind advice in begging them not to be lcd away by the (nets of office. He could only, however, rtturn the compliment by befellthing r: Learned Gentleman not to be too deeply mortifi.. or to allow his mind to be Poured by being out of thi. 414 bed of rofes he had lately quitted, but to bear hi• misfortunes. A Noble Lo and difappoin rd tmtenonts, alto with pa b ri e i c c o u m la i r ? ) f equanimity anxious for the wellbeing of the prefent Miniftry, had Paid that if he wifhed their overthrow he would let them alone ; if he was their enemy, he had nothing to do but to allow them to take their own way. It was to preferve Minifters in their places, not on his own account, that the Noble Lord gave them any trouble. If, however, the Noble Lord and the Ho. nourable and Learned Gentleman timid . declare open hoftility againft them; if they &mild even pn to the length of feceding from the Houfe, finding them perfedly incorrigible, Minifters, he affured them, would not believe them lefs fincere in their c 4 mnnftrations of regard. They would greatly pre' that mode to the fyllem of mifreprefenting what the could not or would not argue fairly The Leaf ne.' Gentleman had Paid, that on the principle of the prefent Repeal Bill, the language of the preambles of nut Ads fhould be altered from "ended" to " fob= witted." Did the Learned Gentleman fay, that there was a tingle parifh in the kingdom, where one man was kaafuk railed incompliance wi th the Ad, or ra. ther, that every man railed was not mired in breach, of it? If In, could it be Paid that to introduce a Bill repealing loch an Ad, was trifling with the dignity of Parliament ? The Bill was incapable of being . ex ecuted ; and with as much cafe to themfelves might the different parifhes have been called on to raife given number of cavalry brides, or even of elephant'. at tol. a bead, as, locally, to mile the number amen alieffed en them. If the Right Hon.' Gentleman, who brought in the Bill, were alive, he (Mr. Sheri. dan) was convinced he would give it up ; not merely fo, but that as he promifed Ink Seffion, he would himfelf move the repeal of it. The Learned Gentle. man had favoured the Houfe with a new preamble to their Bills. He would give the Learned Gentle. man a title which would completely fuit the indent Bill—" A Bill for degrading and making contempti ble the Magiftracy of this country; for railing the bounties to recruits; for perverting the morals of Farah Officers; and for preventing . the recruiting, fomenting difeontent, and encouraging mutiny and defertion among his Majefty's army." The Bill fought to be repealed was, he obferved, the tingle meafore of the great man who had introduced it. It was too a fubftitute for other meafures, there were the Iris Militia Transfer Service, the railing men for rank, and the Army of Referee. The Honoura ble Gentleman oppofite (Mr. York), loathed to fee the fubftitute for this Ad. 7.f be could find other, he felt no befstation in (eying be • thole for which it (erred is a futillitute. Bill he confidered a nuifance, of which duty of the Houle to get quit as fpeedil• He then took a retrofpeft of the Bill, paring what had been promifed, with tually been produced, down to . the 31f (hewed that it had then done nothing. Lord Hawkefbury of that date, be c objeftionahle in itfelf that he ought been indemnified for it, or called to at commending and fandioning fo grofs law. He particularly dwelt on the inft to the Magiftrates in putting Military them, and contended that every man enlii Officers, in taking the oath appointed by • perjured. He concluded by complimenting . cendent ability, eloquence, and unimpeached inte grity of Mr. Pitt, whom he declared, though he had all along afted as a political enemy, no man- more admired while living, or revered and refpefted that he was dead. He was lint er whom he admired as a ftatefman. be thought, had been too great. too lofty to bear controul, or even co.oper:.. he entertained no doubt that he, in every r with the ben intentions for the good , He was on his death bed when the Hawketbory was written. He was r would have approved of it, and he L tlemen who had been his friends not connedion with the letter, or with • prefent Bill. The Repeal Bill was then ordered time. Aconverfation then took place betty, Mr. PIRCIVAL, Mr. WM. SMITH. and Mr. Fox, as to the propriety chide, by way of rider to the Bill wives and widows of the men railed of Referve Aft, the provifions allot Aft ; or, whether the fame end eafily accomplilbed by a feparate Bii at loft agreed, that the further cow third reading fhould be poftponed Mr. YORKE wifhed, as a matt afk the Right Hon. Secretary (Mr. had fixed the day on which he was t for carrying into effect his Military Mr.WINDHAM Paid, that if he day, the queflion of the Hon. Gent' been rendered onneceffary, as he the Loft to the Houk. The Bills w had already Paid, but a variety of vented him from yet fixing on the thould bring them in. Mr. YORKE replied, that he ht Lion as a matter of courtefy. He . ther, after Bilk were ordered, it was not in the powc of any Member to move that they be brought it. forthwith. GRANT TO MI FAMILY OF LORD WILSON. On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQIER, the Houle refolved itfelf into a Committee on his Majeity's Meffage on this fulsjeft ; Lord HOWICK in the Chair. , 1 The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQIJER . then laid, that his Majefiy's meffag'e defiretl that the Houk would enable him to provide for a grant of Spool. per annum, out of the confolidated fund, to the Heirs of Lord Nellon for ever, and alfo for a fum of i zo,oool. to be laid out in the purchafe of a houfe and land, to be annexed to the family for ever. He a trußed, that the Houk would require no perfuafinn to convince them of the propriety and expediency of this meafure. Strongly as he felt the necetlity of , economy at the preknt period. he yet derived much gratification, from being called upon to propofe the prefent grant ; fince he was convinced, that no laying, however large, could accomplifh a mote valuable por. could ind no ee would prefer . :. The Defence Lich it was th dily as poffibl. 11, and by codb It what had II of Dec e . The lett eonfidered ai either to h e sccount for • i a violation fults then the . y O ffi cers ov enlifled by thefe by the Aft, was 4 toting the tranf. and refpe&ed now • eradly the perf in. His ambitio . He had ami co-operation. every refpedt,adt rood of his count the letter by Lo . convinced be new begged chore Gen :ot to fix on him any , 1 the fuppott of thil ed tc be read a thindi mtween Mr. Yoacs, If, Mr. WINDHAM, y of introducing a fecuring to the id under the Army lowed them by tha; might not be as Bill ; when Mr. Fox onfideration of the d till to morrow. :ter of courtefy, to fr. Windham) if h to bring in the Bill ry Plan ? he had fixed on any ntleman would have : would have ftated were ready, as he of matters had prep e day on which 14 had aficed the goof : did not know wh- -0 - Nffi ro aisu 74".. rr HOUSE OF COMMONS. Mr. PELLOWES brought op a Report from the Committee to esamias into the Returns of the Ban' s under the Clergy Rect. dente Aft, and mentioned that it was his intention to proceed In the fame manner every year in order to akertain how far the Ado bad been elleient —The Report was ordered to he on the l'alde. A Meier from the Lords announced their intention of pro ceeding in the Trial of Lord MelvWe to-morrow, and their having pedal a Bill to permit the Kiag in Council to allow certain goods to be exported from and imported Into the Weft India Colonies In antral witch during the war, to which they &Sired the concur. nate of the Haute. Mr. HURST prefented Petitions from the Lawyers, Solicitors land Attendee pry:tiling in the Maribalfea Court, meta the EMU Debt Court Aft...—Ordered to he on the table. Ms. OWEN prefented Account. from the halt India Company, to an order of the Hoak of the 27th of February laft.— to Ile on the table. Lod MORPETH moved, that the Accounts dating the densent of the Bonds Deeds, and other Debts of le Bait India may , in the fevend PM:Henan, with the rate of Intereft, amid its annual Amount, precuts:4 on the tjtit of April, Ike, ftenift be printed..—Ordered. Mr PHILIP STEPHENS prefented an Account of the Iron and hes Wares femlilied for the Navy, by comma, during the left dye years.--ordered to Ile on the table. The Temples Ammeemeat ME was read a brit and ordered to be read a fecemddele ta-eleereek Mr. RODEOS gam malice, doe. on Friday neat, be would saxes for carob Papers reipeAbg tbe Barrack Department. The kith Annuity Bill was read • faced time, and ordered to . bs committed to-morrow. The Mal Leen Bill, and the Tradury Bills Bill, were commit. fad.-4bmort to-morrow. Me. PARNELL gave notice, that to-morrow be would move toe as Account of the Number of Id& and Enghas Bank Notes wave le eireolodoo. Os the motion of the SECRETARY at WAR,the Mutiny Bill was read a ;wood tbne..-Ordcred to be committed to-morrow. OT THI ADDITIONAL TOICS ACT. - - - ' Mr. WINDHAM moved the order of the day for the third reading of the Additional Force Re. peal Bill. Sir JAMES PULTENEY did not mean to detain the Houfe long, but there were one or two topics to which he walled to advert. He contended, that, as the Right Honourable Gentleman had made a very able fpeech of four hours, which none admired more than he did, in opening his plan, and had concluded with moving the repeal of this Al, he had a right to confider that plan in the difeuffion of this queftion. The only reafon which the Right Honourable Gen tleman had given for the repeal was the plantalluded to. The merits of this AO, therefore, were to be compared with thofe of his plan. He perfectly agreed with the Right Honourable Gentleman in the additional allowance to the old foldier, who could only enjoy the comforts of life after he had retired from the fervice. The Bill, it was allowed, would not be immediately efficient, and he fubmitted, whe ther, in times of difficulty and danger like thefe, a Plan was fufficient, from which no great matters could be cape/Eked before the lapfe of (even or eight years. As to the authorities, eleven out of fourteen were againft dtfcharging the men during the war, and the other three were doubtful. He had raid that it was not the praElice in any army in Europe to dif charge men during a war, and in this he had been contradiaed by an Honourable Colonel, not now in his place. But he had the belt authority on the Alb. 4,11, and that was the ordinance of the French army in 1788, where it was fisted, that the men were en lilted for eight years,bot not to be di(charged during a war. He had no objection to have the plan tried, provided the army was allowed to nand as it was, at prefent, and the recruiting for,it to go on. Since there were fo many authorities againft this plan, he might fairly doubt its efficiency, and would acr.ord. ingly, with this view, oppofe the repeal of this Att. General LOFTUS Clued, that this was the firft opportunity he had of laying any thing on this fub jeft, and hoped he might be indulged by making a few obfervations. This Aft, if it had been efficient, would have prevented defertion. But, from his own knowledge, the parithes, inflead of exerting them (elves, had applied to ferjeants and crimps. In one inftance, a par ills had raifed the men in London, and, out of fixteen, no lefs than fourteen had deterted. He thought that the high bounties had made fuch an impreflion, that they ought not to be done away during the war. He thought too, that the men ought not to be difcharged during the war. But the principle of limited fervice he approved ; and he had little doubt of its fucceti, as he hisafelf had fucceed ed in the recruiting fervice, by the fame means, dur. ing the American War. He agreed with him entire. ly in the addition to the Chelfea allowance+, and thought it had the worn effects, when men, who had been twenty-four years in the fervicc, were again called out. Lord De BLAQUIERE was againft the difcharge of the men during the war. He oppofed the repeal of the At, and laid it was a bad method of reafon. ing to argue from a few detached fads in the Papers on the table. Mr. YORKE obferved, that after the dignified fi lence which the Right Honourable Gentleman had obferved, be had little hope that he could be called up by any thing which he could fay. He thought he had a right to examine the while of the plan.— He had oppofed this Aft at lid}, not on the I ,:inciple, for that was the fame as that of the Army of It t fetve, but becanic it did not appear to him that it would produce fo many men as it had den:. Bit he thought it folly to repeal it now, witho . it any thing to fuYliture in its place. Its deprecated the putt:ng an end to the ballot, and laid, that ai the Minifters e now the King's fworn fer rants, they ought, for the fake of continency, to pet revere in notions which they had entertaiged on the oppofition fide of the I Hoofs, why they were con vi nc ed the y were wr ong. )