Star. — London, England, 1812-06-09 00:00:00

should not be the strength of the country: that the opinions of a party shouMnotbe the system ofthe coml. try • but that, in the present complication of parties HOUSE OF LORDS, JUNE 8. and opinions, the Administration should be former* from all parties of individuals agreeing in the tiro two Mr. Percevars Family's Annuities Bill was read a third thric e and pasMd, principles I have mentioned, and coming Loan arrange- The hither proceedings in the Committee on the Orders in ment upon other matters. Now, with respect to an Council were postponed nil twitarrow, at two o'clock. expression which I used on the evening alluded to, to Earl STANHOPE said, there had naturally been great wi-ich, subsequently, much reference was made, and anxiety raised in the public mind as to the person who was likely which it seems was stated by alsloble Friend of mine to be Minister , of this country. It now appeared that we were no long 2r to have weeds as Ministers, but that the old one was (though, as he mentioned, without any authority from to rise like a giant refreshed; and if he did go on in the old me) to have dropped from me in inadvertently. The system, he must be a giant refreshed indeed. He should, there- expression to which I allude was that of 44 dreadful fore, make a nco ton which will give some Noble Lords an personalop animosities." My Lords, in as hat I stated portunity to explain to the House the state of the negociatioes for a Mini•try, if any chose to do SO. Another reason for the Ito tne House, I humbly advised your Lordships not motion he was about to make was, that one of the most violent to call for that disclosure which I was then ready to measures that had ever been brought before that House stood , make, because it would tend to irritate and inflame for to-morrow, which he wished to be put off till another day. 1 those dreadful personal animosities which had Their Lordships would not believe that this was no other than a Bill from the Commons to deprive the poor people of Wales of already existed in the course of the negociation. In their right of trial by jury. 1 hey would scarce even believe, that I using this expression I havenohesitation in stating that by this Bin they are to be deprived of tleir fuel, withoutany corn- I used it advisedly,and that I applied this term ammo. pensation being made to them without the Commissioners please. sities to the Noble Earl (Liverpool) and his colleagues, What be had particularly to object aga'nst the Bill was,that there ~ should not he one law for one parish or county, and another for tor it was from their conduct that the only obstacles another. He would thereforermove that the order of the day, re- arose to the arrangement which I proposed to make." htive to Nevin Inclosure Bill, should be discharged, lur the pur- He did not attribute that unwillingness to facilitate pose of fixing it for Monday next. this great object as a crime to the Noble Earl and Lord BULKELEY said, that the persons concerned would be put to much additional expence by the delay; and as it was p ro bs. his friends, nor did he think it arose from any disho. ble the House would be as full to-morrow night (this night) as on nourable motive ;he merely stated it as a fact. He Monday next, he trusted it could be just as well discussed then wished to ask the Noble Lord, if he did nor, when as at any more distant period. He also hoped to-morrow (this he resigned his mission, recommend to the Prince day) to be able to offer such reasons to the House as would in- duce it to agree with the Bill. He therefore moved teat the Regent to open again the negociation with the Noble order of th.- day should not be discharged. Lords near him (Grey and Grenville) ? This was Earl Stanhope'; motion was then negatived without a division. a fact which was necessary to be known, that he THE ADMINISTRATION. might stand clear before their Lordships; and that The Earl of LIVERPOOL said, that before he he never had departed from those principles which moved the question of adjouanment, in answer to a are recorded of him ;—because he thought that no query from a Not& Duke opposite (Norfolk) on a Administration could exist that did not give imme former night, he thought it necessary to state to the diate consideration to the Claims of the Catholics, House, that that morning his Royal Highness the and- which did not carry on the War in Spain with Prince Regent, acting in the name and on behalf of increased vigour. It was also his opinion, that the his Majesty, had been graciously pleased to appoint adoption of no one party alone could carry us through him (Lord Liverpool) First Lord Commissioner of our present difficulties. the Treasury, and to signify his most gracious plea- , The Earl of HARROWBY said, that as one of sure that tlin rest of the seats in the Cabipet should the party, against whom so great a charge had been be filled up by him (Lord Liverpool). ' made by the Noble Marquis, he must say, that it was The Earl of MOIRA said, it was his intention to not fitting that all the facilities should be supposed have anticipated the Noble Earl, by stating to the to have come Qom the Noble Marquis, and none. douse the event of his negociation. On the failure have been afforded by them. If that Noble Marquis of that one which wa's entrusted to the Marquis Wel- was prepared to prove his charges, let him come for lesley, he (Lord Moira) undertook the task of car- ward then before the country, for the first time, and Tying the ardent wishes of the Prince Regent into do so. He called upon him to state, whether the effect, for the formation of a Ministry. In the pre- charges of n dreadful personal animosities," bad been sent situation of the country, however, he considered loosely thrown out• by him or not ? it as no ordinary trust. He felt it to be most diffi. ' Marquis WELLESLEY said, that one would cult.- The filling up of offices with men of talent, in have thought by the tone of the Noble Earl that he the present state of intellectual improvement in this (Lord Wellesley) was not prepared to enter into a country, he felt to be no difficult task ; but in the con- statement of all that he knew on this subject. He duct of this business it behoved him to be aware that had however stated simply, that all obstacles which no suspicion should arise that he was pursuing a de- he met with a fr dse from the Noble Earl's Faiends.— viation from those great political principles, which, That- Nuble Earl then had alluded to words of his amidst all parties, he had always considered as essen- used on a former night, and called on him to answer, till to the public good. On that account he did not as if he had skulked out of the way to avoid explain succeed ; and he considered it a most lamentable ing them. He had seen an ordinary report of the thing, because those who are to have the manage- speech of a Noble Friend of his, who stated them to • ment of public affairs seem not to possess that which have been used inadvertently: He was sure that is most essential, particulatly in the present state of Noble Lord (Borringdon) was too correct to have • the country, namely, the confidence of the people.— used the word unadvisedly. On that occasion he But one ground for consolation he had, that by all (Lord Wellesley) ,was merely dissuading the House parties be had been met with the utmost frankness ; from entering further on a discussion which might and there was still another ground of consolation , tend to revive the dreadful personal animosities which that the Prince Regent did exert himself to the very he had met with. He had not used those words un utmost, without the smallest reservation, to satisfy advisedly ; upon his honour, he had not ; but he had the wishes of the people in every respect. For him- used them, as he had thought the fact was admitted self, he had only to say, that he should feel it his du- by all his Majesty's Government. He would state ty to support any Administration, if their measures to the House why these obstacles arose, to the just were not at variance with those great political opi- • termination of this important business, and why, in nions, which he had often expressed in that House. I his opinion, they were grounded on personal anima The Duke of NORFOLK said, that the Address sities.—The first principles, as the basis on which a of the House of Commons wished his Royal High- I firm Administration was to have been founded; were ness to appoint a strong and efficient Administration, I handed by himself t o L or d s G r ey and Grenvi ll e, meaning, of course, thereby, that the present was not and by an Hon. Friend of his to Lord Liverpool.— efficient for the conduct of the Government. Before [Here his Lordship read both his propositions, be sat down, therefi re, he wished to advert to the namely, the immediate consideratioircf the laws re. probability of a war with America, anii wished to I specting the Catholics; and the carrying On the war know why an Address should not be immediately on a scale of adequate vigour.] The answer of presented to the Prince Regent, requesting him to Lords Grey and Grenville was, that in the present direct that the Orders in Council should be rescinded. state of the country, it was their duty to abandon all The Earl of LIVERPOOL said, that with respect , personal feelings, in order to give effect to the late to the Address of the other House, it was for a spong ' vote of the House of Commons. The answer of and extended Administratiun.—(Cries of efficient from i Lord Liverpoollto the proposition of his Honourable the Opposition.) In consequence of this Address, he - Friend was, that he had communicated the proposal stated to the Pence Regent that he and his colleagues to his colleagues, and they all felt indisposed to form 'would be no bar to the formation of what might be any part of en Administration. after what had pass eoi.sidered a strong and efficient Administration. He , ed, which was to be formed by Lord Wellesley : and trusted the House would do him the justice to believe, t in another part, he declined the offer, a more espe iliac he had no wish to be an obstacle in the way of I cially as he does not wish to en t er into a question of any arrangement which might be satisfactory :o the I personal feeling."—( Hear, Izear.)—On these grounds Prince Regent, and beneficial to the country. He Ihe did state distinctly, that he had met with obstacles should have thought, after all that had passed in en- I from the Noble Lords, and that they arose from per. deavours to accomplish that without effect, that he I sone' motives. was shrinking from a duty which he owed to the I The Earl of HARROWBY said, if the Noble Tria‘ce and to the country, if he had refused the pre. Lords who acted with him had been capable of re sent appointment. With respect to America, by the fusing to form part of an Administration so to be latest information there were certainly farther in-1 constituted, on personal grounds, they would have stances of hostile intention, on the part of the Legis- much to answer to the country and themselves. He 1 atm, towards this country ; but he knew of no Act I was, however , still at a loss to learn how a refusal to of hostility which had yet taken place. With respect . join an Administration to be formed by any one, was to the Orders in Council, the House was now ap- i to be construed into rounds of personal animosity. r roaching towards the close of an inquiry into them, I The opinion which ilie Noble'Marquis expressed of and it would be for the House to consider and judge, 1 the Government, when h e ki t th e Cabi ne t, rendered on a full and fair view of that subject, of *hat was it impossible for him (Lord H.) for one, to act with best to be done for the interests et this country, and him ; for he had published to the world that they the justice due to the other. were totally devoid of sense or knowledge, and that The Duke of NORFOLK was glad to hear that he had been thwarted in the Cabinet on the most im. war had not actually taken place between the two portant subjects. He appealed to his colleagues; if counts ies. for two years they must not have been in a dream, Marquis WELLESLEY said, that he understood fancying that they were all that time going on in the on the night when he informed the House that he eagle (pinion with the Noble Marquis. had failed in his Mission, it was agreed on all hands, The Marquis WELLESLEY denied :he fact of for the better carrying into effect the Vote of the his having published that paper at the time of his Commons, that no discussion should then take place going out of office; it was hastily drawn up by some on this subject. He appeared before them now with of his friends from conversations. Application was the sane authority as on that day, and was ready to several times made for its being printed, which was enter point by point into the detail of all that had decidedly negatived ; and he never was more thunder been done by him, in his endeavours to form a new struck than when he saw it in print. He declared upon and efficient Adniinistration —o My Lords, my ob. his honour that he would have given any sum to have ject was througlieut this negociation, that three great prevented its publication. When he met the Noble piiaciples should form the bash of the proposed ar- Lords opposite, he stated to them at Carlton House s , rangement :—First, that the laws affecting his Ma- I that it-wae rather unmanly to have gone there three iesty's Roman Catholic subjects should be taken times, after he had tendered his resignation, to have il.to consideration, with a view to a conciliatory 1 him superseded, without informing him—whereas, alljustment. Secondly, that the War in the Penn- it they had, he would have resigned sooner, and have 1 suia should- be canied on with ad cmxte vigour.— given them every facility. The Noble Lord had said 1 And thirdly, that the Administration to be formed that he (Lord Wellesley) had always agreed with should not consist of tile talents, the opinions, or-the them in the Cabinet. Now he thought that tie had strength Of one PartY ; 4 " the strength of eat party Ours :bon his ilhtimour on some occasions qu • - 1..., PARLIAMENTARY PROCEEDINGS. to chew that he did not like their proeeediogs. Bat ever he got at them again he would take care to correct that error. which, in there distrensrul Cmes, en= be tee ms deprecated, 'and. which was far from the moo which it has been met on this side of the H. use, impute nothing to design, but terrainly the co , trax is striking. In my intercourse wi h the No iie M 4. quis, and with my Noble Friend (M 041), I have discovered I aching but an unceasing zed ane i t , sire to conciliate s they had nothing in view but a le general good, and I am persuaded that they v not themselves aware of the secret management of which they were the instruments, and I am as co s , fident of the fact as I am of my own existence, th at the procrastination and delay so much to be rep t . ' ted, has arisen from no other cense than an a nuely to form an administration calculated to retrieve the nation from its present calamities. But are tiler to compel us to resign securities which we conceive na , cessary to the preservation of our honour ?—(k,,4. irear.).-Thus much, my Lords, I felt myself bo un d to say, in eon:vine:we of what fell from the Nobl a Earl, and, in conclusion. I have only to requesa t h at your Lordships will bear in mind, chat wh t at . • tempts were made tckinduce ns to join the new Ad. ministration, it was only to be accomplished by a departure from principle, to the maintenance of • which we have pledged our lives, and what I to ht is still dearer, our tmour." Lord HA RROWBY expressed in it few words in a low tone of voice, his complaints of the very inju rious effects of the Noble Marquis's statement respect ing the late Mr. Perceval. Lord WELLESLEY disclaimed, in the most po sitive manner, any assent to, or knowledge of, its pub. lication, and his greatest displeasure at that event. Earl GREY—" In the greater portion of this in teresting discussion having no concern, I should not have interfered but for one circumstance. The No ble Marquis has acted with his usual manliness in coming forward, not to explain, but to re-assert with justifiable distinctness the expressions he employed en a former occasion— (Hear, hear.) The statement be has made in confirmation carried conviction to my mind, and I believe to that of the Houses—(fber, hear,) that the words were not used inadvertently and if I had entertained a hope that they were nu founded, the speech of tbe Noble Earl (Harrowby) would have completely disappointed i: ; for although in the first instance he indignantly pleaded not guilty to the charge of personal animosity, he occupied neatly the whole of his address, not in a denial of its existence, but in a statement of language and rea. soning in justification of the feeling which operated upon him and his friends in rejecting the proposal made by the Noble Marquis. I admit that it is pain ful to be convinced that personal animosity, in times like these, can be found to agitate any bosom ; but I am gratified at the proceeding we have this night witnessed, because it has given my Noble Friend an opportunity of giving an explanation regarding the publication of a certain paper, which has relieved him from the charge of impropriety, and it has besides removed from the mind of the Noble Earl opposite a most oppressive burden. No allusion having been made to my conduct, or to that of my friends, during these transactions, I should not now have risen to trou ble the House, were it not for a remark that dropped from . the Noble Earl (Harrowby), towards the con ? clasion of his speech. He stated, that in consequence of the Vote of the House of Commons, declaring them ine ffi cient, his Noble Friends had deemed it proper to resign the situations which they then oc cupied, and to which they are now restr,red. In my judgment they acted right and constitutionally in so doing, and if this conduct had been different they would have set an example that might have been fatal to the practice of the Constitution. But it now ap. pears that they are replaced in those offices, and hay. ing before thought it their duty to withdraw, they now feel it equally their duty to resume situations from which they had been driven by a vote of the House of Commons, which declared them incapable of conducting the affairs of the nation. They have now, however, retaken their seats, that the Government may not fall into the hands of per sons of whose principles and measures, according to their assertion, the country universally disapproves. It may perhaps be necessary that I should enter more at large into the reasons which governed my conduct, and as a key and explanation lo them, I beg to state, that the attempts made to form an Administration, as far as we were included, were made upon the fol lowing terms : That we should be morally certain that the principles which wehave snaiansi..esiassiotesed upon through life would be over-ruled the Cabinet, (Hear, hear.) I had a strong suspicion (and I will fairly confess that the existence of such a feel- ing as suspicion did operate upon my mind, with re. g:nd to the proposAl made) of that which has'isow been distinctly and unequivocally granted, either that we were not to be admitted into the Cabinet at all, or that we were to be bound down in such a unamser that the public should have security, that the princi ples and measures to which, dining our whole par liamentary existence, we have oeen pledged, should be decidedly over-ruled. Was this, I _appeal to the House, I appeal to the Country, a fit, a decent propo sal for us to accept ? (Hear, hear, hear.) What is there in my conduct, what is there in my life, which should induce even a momentary belief, that I would con sent to degrade myself into an instrument, a tool to ac complish the designs of others?—(Hear, hear.).„—Wu it really believed that I would now support meaanree I have strenuously and uniformly condemned ? Sha 1 I permit myself for an instant to indulge the idea, that any man could dare to hope that for the despicable emoluments of office, I would barter the principles that have actuated my life, or that I would now at once abandon those measures which, in my opinion (formed afterno little labour and experience) are essential to the salvation of the State? (Hear, hear.) My Lords, I wish to make no lofty pretensions to disinterestedness: I ask for nothing but What I have a right to claim : my life is before my country, and my countrymen shall be my judges—(Hear, hear, Lear.) But lam aware that I have a duty to perform to my friends, and a duty to discharge to my country—to those friends, to whose steady and honourable attachment I owe so much, and to that country whose Dilator ' tunes and whose miseries I so deeply deplore. There is no man more anxious than myself, as far as is con. sistent with my honour, to outstretch a feeble but a seedy hand to save the sinking nation : whenever my humble services are called for, there is no danger that :Shall appal me, no difficulty from winch I shat shrink. (Year, hear.) Give me leave, however, my Lords, to rentark, that I stand in a situation in which I am jus tZsed in saying, that unless I am called to Clovers ment (02A:tenth with the principles I have through oat professed—unless I am allowed to recommead Lend support measures in the Cabinet that I have we commended and supported in the Rowse--unless I can still act with that honour it has been say pride hitherto >o maintain, there is no eatleatity pfverty which I would not embrace with - aheerattluess, and no aocamelitina of misery boat I withal rdt enders with resignation, rather than COMM by tine abandon.' went of character to lose that by which dignity and wealth should ever be aecnospanied..-(hear, heir.) For myself, my Lords, I will never become one of any Government, unless 1 have ,complete security , and assurance that the principles I have professed I shall be fully and fairly discussed, aad the measures adopted, and with these sentinwats,l base now huh. rpect- of being calked to the Comic& of my Sovereign. I would rather at any time enjoy map sal tranquillity than persons, east, and resting en, the bosom of my country, 4201 pity her ternows, and lament that I 11111) not permitted to attempt their relit f— Maur , deer., .1 lamented is des spat s or do Nolle Earl oppoatte (Harrowby) to witness i visit _ . Earl MOIRA.—“ The Noble Lord who has jl t taken his seat, has made all us i ons to transactioes a which I was concerned as the anthothed negnciaity, in which he has contended, that I was imposed am. He has given me all credit for candour and liberai ti . but I shall not consent to be paid off by this compliment to my honour at the expence of aty as, demanding ; I shall not be satisfied with kin toki that I conducted myself with frankness, but lao I was only a dupe, and that I was not aware of dads. signs to which I was instrumental. I assure tla House that 1 would never have undertaken the ee, gociation at all, if there Iliad been a single 'Article of reservation in the authority with which I was ea. trusted.— (Hear, howl).— I appeal to your Lad. ! ships, after the evidence I have given , knowing, a i you do, the confidence reposed n my adviv, by t h e illustrious Personage who now presides over thaws! I when I have proved to you and to the country* I no seduction of power, no object even of honnarslis ambition could induce me to recommend to the Prints Regent any Administration I did not think cosape tent to the danger et the times; I say I appeal to pa Lordships whether 3 ou believe it possible that log commence so arduous an undertaking with my luadt tied, as the Noble Lord has desci ib.d, or so blind a s not to comprehend the nature 14 the proposition' was commissioned to make ?—(Hear, hear). -11 ft fit that such general and indefinite assertions should le made t I cad upta the Noble Lord to state dis.iscdy and explicitly the point to which he allabes.—(Bor), I do insist, in the face of the world, that dm,aghtle whole progress of my negociation with the liable Earl and the Noble L rd l state!, beyond the me, bility of misapprehension, that my instructions see of the most liberal and unlimited nature. Thew* of the transact:ons shall, however, appear beim de public, and they shall judge whether I attempted any imposition, or any imposition was attempted vp* ! me. The transactions from beginning fo end was : conducted with an austerity of tairness, if I may ass she *am which is, perhaps, unparaiisied. 1 dela 1 of the Noble Earl a statement of the pounder, tit I may repel it in as haughty a tone as he ventaredio assert it. My Lords, I leek that I have not dela* this reproach : it is a disgrace which I do not tort land which I cannot bear: if he can bring fermi but the shadow of proof, that even unkal i tt submitted to be mole such an istIMIIIISIU, I my bead to his reproof, and to die deradeeheda must ensue ; if he cannot,' I win repel the lin e proudly as 'teas given.' Personally to the Ms Earl I address nothing : be has spoke . n of test ' public man, acting ' in a public capacity. aadi . e. mend of him, as a public man,* further exploit.; for according to my judgment, perhaps Onfelso,l have discharged my duty with a proud seresiqd conscience. I state. again, that there never well the most insignificant point the slighttst nom* or hint of reservation r the powers given to me am complete and ample, and wherever limited. tin were limited only by my own sense of what Ira at Ito the public. 1 now call upon the Noble Earl mo I satisfactorily to explain his meaning." Earl GREY.-- 64 In what I addressed t4)44 Lordships, I meant to guard myself .most muss* against personal imputations; above all, ageism - ISi as could be directed to the Noble Earl. The to however,. that has been assumed in replying to •V_,Lb marks, shall not prevent me from statiig that no I deem correct. The Noble Earl aad the klma knows that of his integriry and honour I nem hol the sl.ghtest suspicion; nor did I venture an WS* tioa to their dssparaireir.sot. Not only has sechtla my conduct in this place, but I appeal to my am, round me, with whom I hive privately coevals' whether an expression of that nature ever escOss (Beer. hear.) However erroneous I have judgment, testy °figs heart, I have ever paid a iotwouni sesb which was never.swaytd but by dage renee stste totbe to bi li s mooutvse i r e im l presion sas real ma ly by the whole.of these transactsouas in any wa y "^__ de at u a pota lOSs as .--Mw yst ke will carry with it conviction. Is is true I IsavefOr toady remarked an unwillingness to come to the pit not on the part of the Noble Earl, not on the pa!, the Noble Marquis. bet on th e past of the oda* deal who was to give effect to the negociationlisf bad ealidoeted. What is the history of these uai!! tieas f The Noble Marquis, in the first lottain Stade the proposal to us which he has this night 111 ,_ to the House. Was our answer to be termed a v s; tra et 'On preposition ? For a whole greet .. so einismonicanon from the Noble Lord. _see die sett ;etiolation we received from him vow um t ire d* Councils of the Prince. but to ittwOrg 1 . ruler the Neils Marquis with Noble Lotus gilt V licamillica wasson suspen de d. e lt *Not ln wha t i a ntroshat t wit el Of a week dist! nosed to the Nome that prvposAle Af'd "- 1111111" Zli e rN4P9 6: 9l.l"tehair ia Ilak i i s n iduubde g th d t t nthepu:opilthossu7at the 17 ,f 17wile ; 11 ; *lt satisfooncas of believing, that there vat 7 4 . lbw ?resent. whether my political freeadi ilich lar adzsari aim r. we w c hl d wa no s t n Li t ve co u nv ith uiced, htssos t; lealisui How stood our attain in we c 0.00 4 NMI I he. Mainers Oovemmist was c . A