Star. — London, England, 1812-04-22 00:00:00

nr should address the House, tb ce Lora SELKI Lean CHAncut on dec l a reda t ,he saw the latter N o ble Lord stand up first. - The Earl of SELKIRK then rose :he had no ob. ue t ion that the Roman Catholics sh ould enjoy all the civil pr.vileges which the other subjects of his Majesty ; nor because some concessions had been m ade to them should it be considered a motive for ' vitholding more. The Noble Lord who had just sat awn, st ated it as his opinion that every religious sect was also a political party, and that they mu st, in the nat ure of things, act together , ,as their relig ious belief w as a bond of union. 'I o this doctrine he cou ld not give his assent. It was true indeed, thatevery religi ous sect, when excluded from political rights, acted t ogether because their exclusion then became a real bond of union ;—(Hear, hear !)--but if the Catholics were admitted to what.they now cla imed, was it to be supposed that after such admission they would con fine their views to the interests of their priests . Such conduct would be a sort of paradox. Wa s . it to be supposed that they would sac rifice every interest of their own to the interests of their priests? This was inconsistent with every thing in human nature. He could not see any great danger from conceding what they desi re d ; because , even after admission to all their rights, they would form but a very inconsiderable i part of the Legislature. On these grounds, he was of opinion that their civil disabilities ought to be re moved ; at the same time, he was far from entertain ing such sanguine hopes from the removal as .tie Noble Mover seemed to entertain. He did not think they could gain by it the immediate and zealous sup of 4,000,000 of the inhabitants of Ireland ; for he feared that there was a wide spread disaffection among the people of that country. The Noble Mover spoke as if that disaffection arose from the few laws still in force against the Catholics; but he did not be. Neve it was to be ascribed to that or to the French Revolution, or other causes to which he had heard it attributed. He believed that it arose from deep his torical causes, which could not be immediately re moved, and from that antipathy which a conquered nation always feels against their conquerors. He thought, that every feeling arising from a considera tion of this kind should be as carefully as possible re moved. He believed, that the repealing of the laws against the Catholics would be followed by the re moval of disaffection ; but he did not believe that the measure would have that magical effect immediately. The Marquis of WELLESLEY said he was anxi ous to have the honour of speaking after his Noble and Learned Friend who preceded the Noble Earl who had just sat down ; because he felt considerable surprise at the manner in which, towards the close of his speech, he had commented upon a test, which was said to have been proposed in the County of Galway, and which it was thought might spread all over the country. The circumstance was not de serving of particular notice, if it were not for the importance which appeared to be attached to it by his Noble and Learned Friend (Lord Redesdale). It was stated by that Noble Lord, as a grand objec tion to the motion before their, Lordships, that the Catholics of die - county of Galway, at a meeting, in which Lord Ffrench was in the Chair, had agreed to Resolitions, pledging them not to vote for any man - who would not subscribe to a test or declaration that be would not solicit, nor accept for himielf, or for any of his connexions personally, or through any other channel, of any place of trust, emolument, honour, or profit, until the remaining disabilities of the Catholics should be removed. When his Noble and learned Friend pressed this topic upon their Lordships' consideration, he did not seem to be aware of the effect the test would have in relieving the Ad ministration from a weight of solicitation on the part of those who mighrbe induced to subscribe the test. —nut, really, he did not expect that such a topic should have been so insisted upon, and so seriously pressed forward into the front cf the argument, nor should he himself have thought of adverting to it in this manner, if it bad not been for the ear nestness with which it tad been.urged. Having thus touched upon that part of the statement of the Noble and Learned Lord, he should next beg leave to come so the itnmediate question before their Lordships, which was, whether, under all the circumstances of the case, after all the petitions that had been pre sented, and were lying upon their Lordships' table— after all the solicitations which had been year after year preferred to Parliament upon the subject—after all the applications in favour of the Catholic claims which had been forwarded from various parts of Ireland as well as this country, and from persons of different religious persuasions —applications in most points, as he should contend, favourable ; but whether favour able or not, all equally tending to strengthen his view of the case. The question, he should repeat, W. 13 whether, with all these considerations 'in their con templation, they were prepared to negative the pro position submitted to them by the Noble Lord who brought forward the subject ? He should here beg leave to put a question to the Noble and Learned Lerd, and to their Lordships generally, a. question which he should continue to press most strongly upon their attention, and frequently revert to, i n all he I botild say that night, short as he trusted that would be; he would ask whether any man who felt the im portaace of the subject, *ho thought with him, that without concession to the Catholics, there would be infinite danger to the Protestant Establishment, and that concession would create an additional bulwark for its security and support, could consistently with ail feeling of duty to his country, bring himself to negative this proposition ? He was very ready to allow that in the view taken of the subject by thus Noble and Learned Lord, such a decision might be conscientiously made. But whilst he was pre pared to admit, that for humanity, integrity, and honour, for intimate acquaintance with the prin ciples of the laws and constitution of the Realm, and that for most of the other qualities and attainments that illustrate the character .of a public man, there was no . man his suporior in the country : he was bound, from the view he took himself of the questio• "der consideration, t:o look upon the notions enter. tuned respecting i t by that Noble and Learned Lord as erro . aeons. Th ose , un d ou b te dl y , w h o t h oug ht that the concession of the claims of the Catholics Woul d_beproductive o f d anger to t h e sta bili ty o f t h e Protestant establishments in Church and State, and as directly tending to subvert the alliance -between both, could consistently ceine to a decision against this im portant question. Without entertaining any inten tion to go into a discussion ea the question, whether a national religious establishment be necessary for the about this time, and that the exeentive would tate the fixed principle in their minds to destroy the esta. security of the State, be should take that opportunity the lead in the concesiiosa i 4ele ;mead not gate what Wished Church, was it extremely probable that this just to state that he looked upon such an est i anlise r . he knew upon this subject. ...But the existence of the could be effected ?At all events - the desire would meat as not only necessary, but indispensably earn- eexpectetion was a reasoq wheethey should enter into he decreased, or in a great metsrre destroyed. For tiai tote liberty, the glory, the power ,of the Stare iAn ittgeirys how-they,cesetldemkkate the severiey of if they destroyed the means t -y w eiel not eleieby —to every thing connected with and contributive to 1 the aestraints upo n , thole upon whom they fell ? If ircrease the desire. By grant; g:h se bene fi ts they the means, the magnitude, and the strength of a !.they did _ant, their own purpose would not be an- would ex its a desire fevinireb eto the present Esti nation. It was, in his opinion, the primary duty of i swered. He could pot suppose that the proposition blishment ; and to destroy teat, teere must exist a every State, to erect, to exalt, and to maintain, a na- n would be opposed with a view to obtain a triumph, desire superseding all their own in rr sts. But what , tional established religion. But though this was a rather than to arce r t a in truth. And here he should I was the security which they effere i ? They gave primary, it was not the sole duty towards Gorr or ' address the Noble Lord on the Woolsack, in the lan- ' - their oaths, their protestations, their p .st conduct, the man of the State. It ought to be .exercised, un- ; guage of a Noble Lord near him, (Earl Grey) who i declarations of their Clergy, and the asserences of dnubtedly, but in alliance with other duties—duties,' said in a former debate o you call for securities; I say, • heir last free Pope ; but their Lordships were not to without a connection with which it could not-be i shew me your daubers." He would press this argu. b satisfied, because cif the Coen:el of Latcren, and performed in a manner calculated to promote the ! ment,andask, shrew me your securities ? (Hear, hear.) I the doctrines and opinionseit Jes.-, Hu sec, and other happiness, the prosperity, and the well being of a t From what was said by Noble Lords on this subject, I polemical writers of former times. He did net nation. When he said this, lie meant the duties of one would suppose that they thought an establishment I know how to enter into such a coetest, but he al national charity and benevolence to priivide for the in Ireland rested on a rock of security—that it was in, ways thought such contests a perversion of talent, of happiness of all the classes of the community. With- itself solidly established, and exposed to no danger ' truth, and of cornmoe sense. Were he tnassert such our that, what was generally called strength and vi- but from concession to the Catholics. But he would doctrines as that the li.ing was la:4113114 Was im gour, 1 was violence ; and be must be perinitted to say, intreat their Lordships to enter into the inquiry, in mortal, and all those fantastical notions. he should that violence was not vigour, particularly in support order to ascertain how large a portion of the people i be told they were inconsistent with liberty, and as of a religious establishment. If violence of that des- of Ireland we r e affected by the disqualification.— to the opinions of the infellibilitv of the Pope, they I cription were to be resorted to, it must be evidently . The Noble and Learned Lord was afraid of the test, were equally fantastical and preposterous. He never inconsistent with the happiness of that part of the because he knew that the description of persons who ! should argue that these were the doctrines of their people upon which it operated ; and contr a ry to that proposed it was a considerable part of the population I faith at the present day, but if their present prac primary duty of charity, which he had before alluded of Ireland. For himself, he looked upon them to be , tice, and doctrines were disputed, was not that an to, and to which the nation had a right, as well as the great body of the people of that country. How i essential reason for going into the inquiry ? If there subversive of that equal justice to which every were they situated ? They were admitted to a was so much danger to be apprehended from the member of a free State was entitled. What justice certain rank in the Army—to the Bar—and to the authority of the Pope, he u isbed to ask where that could there be without liberty ? And what was elective franchise ; but they were excluded from the authority was now to be found ? Fur his own part liberty without order and regulating law ;or religion right of Representation, the Magistracy, and Cor- he had not been able auy where to discover it. Had without charity to man, especially a Christian tell- potations. But it was said, that they might en- i the Pope been able to establish his ground in Spain e gion ; still more, a Protestant religion ; but above joy the right of Representation, and enjoy the ',. Had he been able to shake the foundation of that all, an English reformed religion, which emphati- other privileges, if they would take the tests which monarchy. or advance the views of his master, bo. cally and truly rested upon the principles of most were equally imposed upon all sects. But there was naparte, against the liberties of Spain ? Had he effectually promoting the happiness of the people ? no equality in this. They could n ot take these tests been able ter suppress the spirit of liberty and lode- The English National Reformed Church ought to be consistently with their honour, their consciences, ' pendence of the Spanish nation ? and be would ask, such that its professors should be able to hold out or their faith, whereas the greater portion of these by whom was that spirit actuated and supported ? the hand of benevolence and the balm of charity to who took them, only declared that which was their ' The Roman Catholic Clergy were the main body and every other religious persuasion, in which he could profession, and which they would be glad to declehe spring of all their energies, agsiust the usurpations contemplate the purity of its doctrines, and the coe- to the whole world. This was the whale injustice of of Bonaparte, with this very P,efe in his hands, and rectness and integrity of its foundation, looking up to the case, as their Lordships would perceive if they in defiance of this powerful authority, they had esta it with affection as well as veneration for its benign supposed any other te st, upon which an essential dif. Wished the succession of the Crown of Spain in the spirit and salutary influence in the ' , reservation of ference of opinion prevailed, the qualification for Royal Eamily. They had established a Regency in his civil rights, and the amelioration of his civil con. office. Suppose a declaration, that the expedition to the name of their lawful Sovereign, and they had dition. A. church of such,a de scr ip t i on s h o uld want Copenhagen was consistent with the law of nations, asserted their liberty and independence, even in the nothing necessary either to its dignity o r splendour. were to be diet test, and that the office of President very face of the Pope's Nuncio, residing in Spain. The principle which every man would admit to be the of the Council were vacant, as it had been lately, Could it be argued for a moment that the principles grand desideratum was that which banished oppres- before the Noble Viscount (Sidmouth) who now fill- of the Catholic religion were so connected with the sion, and contributed to the happiness of the people. ed it, was appointed. The N o ble Earl who preceded Papal Power as to be dangerous to the State? Under Religious worship might in some cases int er fere with him having been a planner of that expedition, could all these circumstances he conjured their Lordships human laws. Religious exe:-cises s hould be advanta- feel ne difficulty in taking the test, but from his most solemnly and sincerely to enter into the conside geous to the community, and as such generally un- known opinions upon the subject, his Noble Friend ration of this question. In every point of view he interrupted by the Government, but he did not mean who succeeded could not take it : he would expire could contemplate it, he thought it most essential. to condemn the interference of Government in parti- rather than take it.—[A laugh.]—The imposition of They required to know what security they had t cular cases. The intercourse b etween man and his such a test, therefore, was unjust. He had no fantas- Without entering into the inquiry, it was impossible Creator must become matter of human actions, and tic al notions of right, but he would contend that there the Catholics could lay any grounds of security be this admitted, he was surprised ho w a py m a n could . was no real distinction between civil right and po lio. fore them, nor could he see how that question could say that it could at no time be justly subject to Int. cal power ; the former meaning not , the possession come before them, until they entered into the inquiry man law. As well might it be maintained that ' of, but the eligibility to political power. Was it for in a Committee of she whole House. There was no crime could not be subject to human law. Crimes their Lordships, who had enjoyed the possession of possibility of fairly considering the question but in a had fiequently been committed in religious exercises. office, emolument, place, and honours, to tell the Committee, where they might examine the Lege,- These, from whatever motives they proceeded, when Catholics that they were wrong in supposing such gistative eaactmen:s of former times the causes embodied in human proceedings, were still crimes. He objects desirable ; that they who had enjoyed them from whence these laws emanated—how they were ueuld probe this subject to th e qu i c k, be cal m- what- I considered them all but as vanity and vexation of , varied, and how altered, and tilemately that they ever complaints might be made of persecution when ' spirit ? (Hear, hear.) Were they to tell them . might examine the present state of these laws, but religious exercises were impeded, he was of opinion that the seat of happiness was a private station ? To above all that they might examine the fundamental that the Government had a right to prohibit them !talk doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church—whether of giving them only liberty of person and liberty 1 . whenever they appeared to be dangerous to the State. I o f As a Noble Lord had said on a fernier debate, in property, was to insult them, because they were the Protestant establishment was best su pp orted b y rights of the British Constitution, which they could ; this system of coercion and intoleration, by a coati. such case, " necessity creates a right," but pass the not and dare not refuse them, and which were en- 1 nuation of those civil disabilities, restrictions, and pc bounds of that necessity and persecution begins. He joyed by even the meanest criminal in the Stem—. ; nalties, or whether the character of the Protestant could not admit the claims of the Catholics of Ire- The Noble Marquis then proceeded to detail the va- I Church was best maintained by an extension of those land to be a claim of right, but this he would say, tights and privileges to so many th ousands of th eir rious ways in which the restrictions on the Catholics ; that when a large body of men (like the Catholics) feelow.subjects. i would operate to produce discontent in the subeltern ' were designated as unfit to serve their country on ac- I part of the army, by drawing a line against promo. The Earl of LIBLIVERPOOL dectired, in his view count of their religious opinions, h e t h oug ht they had ' tion—at the bar, by excluding from the bench- -in i of the subject, he differed from his Noble Friend a strong Claim on the justice of their country, upon every part of this question, end bed no di ffi culty the great body of the people, by excluding from the' to have such disabilities removed. Having stated in saying, that the motion should meet his decided magistracy, the right of representation, and from cor this, it was his with to follow the details into which it ! p otations. The discontent that would thus be em- negative. He did not desire any arguments to per. ; naturally led ; and he must say, upon a review of suede him of the propriety of such a Commit bodied, would, indeed, be dangerous to the Establish- 1 the whole state of those laws which were now pro- ment ; and whatever respect may be due to the heads tee, in such a time as this, in the present state of posed to the consideration of the House, that, so far th e country , and the present temper of the .Re. of the church in Ireland, or their suffrages, he cense./ from being, as they were sometimes represented, a man Catholics ; but he did maintain, that at any dered it a correct description of that to represent it as fundamental, immutable, and irreversible part of the time, under the present circumstances, in the pre consisting of Bishops without Clergy,parishes without Constitution, they were above all the codes ever in• sent state of the country and temper of the Rom a churcees, and glebes and rectors without Protestant stituted in the world, the most distinctly marked as benefit could possibly arise, and by parishioners, or with those at too great a distance to Catholics, no temporary (Hear, hear,) and liable to be altered and attend. A church such as that had not internal j acceding to the motion, would only be creating an varied by times and circumstances. (Hear, hear.) In strength to support itself, and, under such circum- I alarm in the Protestants, and deceiving and delu proof of this statement he had only to inform their Lord- stances, he would put it to their Lordships, whether I ding all parties. He should not now enter into ,a ships, that it had been successively altered and varied it was wise or expedient to continue a. system of ex- discussion iu answer to the long and laborious detail according as changes of times and circumstances ren- and arguments of his Noble Friend; but if his elusion and restraint, which must of necessity embody dered that necessary, and that consequently it was arguments were well grounded, he had the leis the discontent of the mass of the people against the temporary and in no part fundamental. (Hear, hear.) Establishment. The Noble Marquis continued to reason to vote for a Committee ; for, if the danger He begged their Lordships to turn it in their minds observe, that the Roman Catholic Church of Ireland of non-compliance in the Roman Catholic Claims that this was the plain short issue which they were was so great as his Noble Friend bad represented. was more ready to admit the authority of the Church to decide. They were all agreed, lie was persuaded, of Rome than any other establishment that existed : the true mode would be to repeal all these statutes at in the necessity of maintaining, and would be ready and why ? Because in all other countries they had once , and put an end to all deliberations o p the sub to lay down their lives in support of the established the protection of the State to secure them against the jest. Without going into that part of the questien Church : there was no difference of opinion amongst which formed the commencement of his Noble Papal Power. In all other Protestant countries, them as to the propriety of supporting that establish- where toleration was allowed, they were protected Friend's speech, he should agree with him, that re. ment in all the purity of its doctrine and discipline, ligion formed the essential part of Government. He in a much greater degree than in Ireland, and the and all the dignity, splendour, and majesty that great danger arose from the Roman Catholics of was ready to subscribe to the principle laid down by should belong to a national Church. But he would Ireland not being more under the protection of the his Noble Friend, that every restraint upon civil, pp ask whether it was essential to these objects to endea- State. It was therefore, he contended, in order to litical, and religious liberty, was injurious to the -to maintain it by a system of exclusion and re. have security against - ;ritual dangers, t h ey must I state e ; but he was rinsed to contend that, in this • your _ _ Y . , Y 5, .y agar.. , spn straint ; whether it would not be much better support- give them temporal benefits, and declared most sti ed and secured by the adoption of a system of con- lemnly that, in his conviction, the present danger ciliation and indulgence ? 'I his, in his honour and arose from denying those benefits. He would ask, in his conscience, he believed to be the true view of therefore, would they not take these things into their the case, and in the sincerity of both, he would consideration ? Would their Lordships fulfil their affirm it as his opinion, that the security, of the duty to the country if they refused to take this into United Kingdoms depended upon their Lordships' their consideration ? The next question was, the dan just consideration of this question.—(Loud cries of ger resulting from removing these restrictions, and Hear, bear, hear.)—He was so strongly impressed upon this question, it would become their Lordships with this conviction, that he must again dwell upon duly to compare the real danger he had stated with . 'the point, and ask, whether their Lordships could 1 the alleged danger stated by the Noble Lord ( Reties consider a system of exclusion and restrkint, as a dale), and he should first ask, what was their present better mode of maintaining the establishment, than 1 i security against it? The present security resulted from a system of conciliation and concession, in a spirit I oaths (as the Noble Lord argued) which the Roman of harmony and peace—a system too which had 1 Catholics refused to take, and some other oaths which often been reverted to, and extended before ? ( Hear,- they had taken ; and this, it seemed, was the prin. hear, hear.) —He should never cease to inculcate cipal security; but then it was said that they could the necessity of weighing well this question. They I not rely on any oaths from which they can be re were not called upon that night to make any con- . leased, and yet they would compel them to take those cession without atry security. All that they were asked v e ry laths which were inconsistent with the tenets of was, to take the code of laws into their consideration ''their religion, and therefore they could not rely on in a Committee. The Noble Lord who brought for- them, because there was a dispensing power, the ward the Motion, no doubt, had expressed his hope Lord knowi where. Then he should wish to know that this examination of the laws would terminate in . where was the danger ? Upon what circumstances concession. But all they were, in this instance, called did they rely fog believiig, that if the Roman Catho: upon to do was, to take the laws into their consider- lics were admitted into Parliament, the first thing ation. tic was of opinion withthe Noble Mover this they would do would be to abolish the present eata would lead to concession. They were all aware that - blishment ? Then where the danger ? Suppose they a strong earetittion of this result was felt exactly increased the desire of these persons—suppose it was instance, it arose !cons . necessity ; and in order to bring the question fairly and entirely before the House, he was anxious to state the difference between his Noble Friend and himself on this subject I-- but his Noble Friend had run into a mistake with respect to the Test—this Test was imposed equally upon all his Majesty's subjects, and bore equally on every class, and the question was, whether they were or were not necessary for the Established Church ? and lie would rater to the Statute Books as a proof, that in this country, various Tests ex isted which did not in Ireland ; and whatever the merits of the question might be, the whole question of civil disabilities stood on a very different tooting .— There was no law in Ireland, that dissenters of all descriptions should conform in any way to the Church of England, these disabilities applied to their doctrine and opinions alone.—lf tha,-,e doctrines were confined to certain tenets of their religion only. be admitted there was no reason fir putting them on a worse footing than any other class of his Majesty's subjects, but the point at which he was at issue with his Noble Friend was, that there were other tenets not wholly religious, but connected with Civil Go vernment, and oifferent from his Majesty's Consti tuted Authorities. He considered that such an est.. blishment as she Roman Catholic Religion, which aft: under the indaence of a foreign Power, lima ever be a subject of jealousy in a Protestant country. 11.