Star. — London, England, 1820-06-28 00:00:00

length on his own responsibility, and stand forward as the accuser, and put the business in a train at judicial, inquiry, that it might come before their Lordships. This state of the case rendered what was before hypothetical, quite certain. Then let the difficulties in which the House was involved beiook- ed at. If the determination of the Secret Committee were to be in favour of the accuser. it must, if it weighed anything, excite a prejudice against the accused ; if in favour of the accused, the prejudice must be against the accuser ; bnt their Lordships ought to know nothing of either party. Their duty was to do equal and strict justice between both. He again entreated their Lordships to reconsider the con: sequences of the steps which they were taking, in order that they might see the propriety of altering a course so inconsistent with justice, and so injurious to their character. These were strong reasons against eie use of Secret Committees ; but it was a stronger reason than all, that they were in disrepute with the Public. The fact was, that Secret Committees had been of late years too frequent, and were regarded with no favourable opinion. To be anxious to do t:rict justice, was the first duty of their Lordships ; and the next was, that the mode of doing it should exape all suspicion. In stating this objection, he was not yielding to popular clamour ; he only wished to preserve the House from giving just cause of general suspicion—(Hear„hear).—He had now en deavoured to shew, that the course which the House had taken, was inconsistent with precedent, and con trary to justice; and he had likewise endeavoured to state the objections which arose out of the particular circumstances of the rank and situation of the illus trious individual, who had all that was deafest ter' human nature involved in the questions Her Ma jesty had approached them as no English Queen had ever done, to present a Petition at their Bar for jus tice. He entreated that her case Might be put in a train of open public investigation. She required no delay but two months to procure the means of de fending herself, and prayed their Lordships not to institute a proceeding of which) her defence could make no part. Would the House then proceed by Secret Committee, and upon ex park information ? lie was not then irguing the case of the Queen ; he thanked Gou he knew nothing of it, but he spoke there as a Member of that House, anxious to vindi cate its character. This was no party queition— (Cheert).—He claimed for all parties equal justice in this distressing affair. They were bound by every obligation not only to dispense that equal justice, but to dispense it in such a way, as would place it above suspicion. But, as the circitrostances were, the pro ceeding not only laboured under disrepute, but was loaded with the odium and execration of the Public. He did not feel that he was yielding to any clamor ous opinions; but when such an opinion as that which the country entertained towards this transac tion arose not out of any factious feelings, but sprung from the best principles and feelings of our nature— from compassion, kindness, humanity, and a deep.' rooted sense of justice, it deserved their Lordships attention. The Noble Lord again adverted to what had taken place in the House of Commons. and en treated their Lordships, proud as they justly were of a long line of ancestors, and possessing hmour, wealth, and independent minds, to take care how they gave cause for calling the moral influence of their high advantages into question. Public opinion was already disposed to say, that they were too little disposed to resist the solicitations and suggestions of the Minis ters of the Crown. The Commons had not acted in this distressing affair as they had done. That House had seized upon an opportunity of negotiation, it had adjourned its discussion from a disinclination to entertain what the Minister had proposed, and the consequence was, that the Minister had himself come down to declaim against what he had himself de manded—(('keers).—From these events, what opi nion was the nation to hold of the contrasted con dnct of both Houses ? Would it not be said that the House of Commons had a higher and firmer feeling for their own character, end a better sense of public duty and of justice, by obliging the Minister to desist or to become responsible—than the House of Lords, where the Minister carried his point, though he shrunk from responsibility ?—(Heas, hear).—Their conduct in this instance should be weighed well, or it rnight much impair the respect which ought to be paid to their legislative and judicial measures. Were they prepared, if they proceeded in this course, to bear the suspicions and execrations of the public feel ings, which would fall {Apon them from every part of the world where such proceedings were beard of? He might allow, perhaps, his strong objections to a. Secret Committee to be overcome, if a convenience to public justice was to arise from it ; but there could be no such convenience. If he (Lord Grey) were a Member of that Committee, he would not hear any paper read which came as a deposition from a person of whom he knew nothing. He would have an op portunity of examining him personally, or he should leave his evidence where he found it—{Hew-, Isar). He meant to say nothing uncivil of' the Members of that Committee ; but be would only repeat what had been said before, that th ere were four Cabinet Mi nisiers upon it-the Lord Chancellor, the Lord Pre sident, the First Lord of the Treasury, and the Se cretary of State for the Home Department; and of the others he did not intend anything offensive when he stated, that the majority of them bad always, upon all political questions, voted with the Minister I It would be, therefore, childish to suppose that the Report of such a Committee could be anything else than the Report of Ministers, or what they had them selves advised--(llear,hear). He could not see how it could be otherwise, unless there was some purify ing influence, some holy inspiration about the Cant rptttee Room, which cou ld produce a wonderful effect on the habits and understanding. The case was now brought into those difficulties which could have no solution, but by getting rid of the Committee, an d pursuing a course of justice, impartial and public. Ile did not mean to propose anything 'which could shift off this inquiry. It might be unavoidable ander• the circumstances in which Parliament was placed. But he would ask their Lordships to consider, whe ther the object which all had in view might not be l Better obtained by a mace simple, open, and unre served mode of inquiry ? It might be produced by a Jneasure partly legislative, partly judicial, and if it 4w as to be by Bill, then ...he fairly proposed to the House the only mode whereby her Alajest, could It vi the fullest and freest opportunity of ihquiry..... ~~ • t He admitted, that to all the modes proposed, certain advantages belonged. He did, not call upon4ie House to do anything for the . of impeding inquiry ;he only wished them . that' mode which was most consonant with' : 4 .`;( -- .ciples of lave and justice, and the least injuri.. o the character of the House. In looking at the conduct of his Ma jesty's Ministers throughout the whole of this un happy affair, he must say, that it appeared. to him to be very open to suspicion. Uncertainty and indeci sion marked the whole of their conduct, and they had now brought the House into a situation , from, whence it could not advance without danger, ;nor I recede without dishonour. In his opinion, his Ma jesty's Ministers were guilty of a culpable waste of feeling ; they had brought, not only the best interests of the country, but the honour of the Crown, into peril. He did not mean to go into an historical detail of all the proceedings connected with the case: but their Lordships would recollect, that it was more than twelve months ago a Commission was sent out to the Continent, by what authority, under what seal, from 'whom, or from whence that Commission was issued, might perhaps come out is the course of those inquiries; but it was appointed to collect evidence as to the conduct of her Majesty abroad. It was nearly twelve months since that Commission made its Re port, and all that time had his Majesty's Ministers been in possession of it. In his opinion it was the duty of those Ministers, on receiving that Report, to have taken it into their immediate consideration, and to have formed their decision as to the nature of the course which the case required. If they did not think that there was in that Report sufficient cause for bringing forward an accusation against the Queen, `thew it was their duty to state their opinion boldly .arid manfully to their Sovereign. If they were of opinion that there was sufficient ground for accusa tion, then it was equally their duty to bring it for ward, to propose some specific measure: and thus they 'would have avoided all that uncertainty which has produced so much dangerous agitation in this collo• try for the last three weeks—(Hear, Aunt):--In his opinion, if the Ministers had agreed that there was ground for accusation, they should have been long since prepared with it ; they should have served po tice to that effect on her Majesty ; the witnesses might. thus be prepared on all sides, and the question might have been decided before this time. He would not detail the whole of the conduct which those Ministers thought prOper to adopt, and which differed so ma terially from the course he had just pointed, out. But when at last they did bring forward :their charge, they admitted that there was ground for negotiation. In that case it was their duty to have attempted that nogociation without delay, and while her Majesty was in a situation to agree to a compromise with ho nour to herself: But they did not attempt any such thing, and here they were guilty of the most unpar donable neglect. When, therefore, he coupled wish this conduct the terms which were proposed in that letter of lord Hutchinson, which was published in the and which gave a quotation from a letter of th P e l lZble Earl opposite, threatening her Majesty with instant criminal proceedings if she should come to this countrywhen he coupled that again with the Message which had been sent down to their Lord ships, and which contained something like a charge of adultery —at least, nobody would say that that Message did not suppose grounds for accusation of the most grave nature—when, he repeated, be cou pled these things together, he was astonished that his Majesty's Ministers should make such charges, and at the same time throw them on the table, obviously wishing to withdraw themselves from that duty from which they never should be allowed to shrink with his consent—( Hear, hear).—But this was not the only instance which furnished proof of the weakness of the present Government. It had been their constant practice to turn over to the guidance of Parliament the vessel of the State, whenever it was in danger--; (Cheers).—They watched the moment when the clouds darkened the Heavens, when the tempest was gathering in the distant horizon, and when the ocean was awakened is all its fury; when the winds raged and the waves rose, and threatened to overwhelm the ship, then the pilot trembled and left the vessel to the mercy of the angry elements!— " Qum duns sine lege geruntur ; Aspera treads !gems; omnique e pane feruces Bella gerunt vend; fretague inclignanda intscent. . . Ipse ;slyer; am se, qui di status, ipse fatetur Sire rads rector; sec quid jubcatre, vetetre: Tanta mall moles ;tassusque poet:odor acre estr—.(ifxr.) This was the situation in which the country was left. And when their Lordships recollected the manner iai which the accusation was brought, and compared it' with the defiance with which that accusation was met, they should not wonder at the impression which was so strongly made throughout the country in favour of her Majesty--(Hear, hear).—Nay, even one of those very Ministers, who had advised this CTding, had said—di So help me Gozi, I will , become her accuser." Bat what did the Right Hon. Gentleman say more? He spoke from his per sonal knowledge of the Queen, and he called her I , the grace, life, and ornament of society," If she deserved this encomium—if she was!‘ the grace, life, and ornament of society," why was she not - a fit part ner for the Throne of England ? and why, when his colleagues spoke of charges, did he shrink from giving advice to that effect ? For he not only called her " the grace, lift, and ornament of society," but added, that she was entitled to his highest respect and admiration. And be itjecollected, at that Minister, too, spoke those words with a knowledge of what was in the green Mg !—{Hear, hear).—After this disclamation, he thought that there was some inconsistency in da; ossidact of those Ministers who had recommended t• the House of Commons the Resolutions new ups& their Lordships table, and who had shortly befost that arraigned her Majesty as not fit to retain the high rank to which she had arrived. He thought it was not yen consistent in those Ministers at one time to attempt to depose her Majesty from that pre eminent station, and in almost the nest moment to come to her Majesty and address her in the tone of humble supplication. Above all, he thought it highly ' inconsistent in those Ministers to send forth a decla ration that they would institute criminal proceed ing:Mk/01st her if she should set her foot on the Bri tish shore—i(Cihren).—and a tow days afterwards to say to her Majesty, is tie matt supplicating tone they could assume— " pending low, sad $ a baadmaa's key," " If your. most gra cious u Majesty will be so good as to desist from salting further concessions, after giving Parliament, I always did feel that a proceedm, , a C c i' u n i g re y d o b n y r hMoliesingtyoarl charges s eri a t t which yon against her Majesty the Queen must be a great pil u . ready to give you any kind of ship in which it may lic evil. I always deought, that whatever her con please your Majesty to leave this country—We are duct might have been, it must necessarily be at_ ready to recommend you to foreign Courts—we will tended with great public inconvenience. To avo o ! concede to your Majesty everything but the insertion that inconvenience, if possible, without incurtine of your name in the Liturgy, for this would be an greater one, was therefore an object which apper acknowledgement of inconsistency; it would. be are- to me at all times desirable, and the conduct adopt e d tractation, which, from our situations, we cannot l with that view is such as I not only avow without le. make!"--(Near, heart)—Why, he would . ask the sitation, but defend with confidence. With resoec: ; House, was there ever anything so contemptible?—, to the measures taken to prevent the return .1 tl: e (Hear.)--With re and to th e f as t m ea s ure proposed Queen, I believe theyare approved by nine -tenths ,f by his Majesty's Ministers, it was defended upon the people; but from the moment that her Majesty'; grounds which appeared to him strange enough. resolutiou was taken to return, I ask, was these any One of those Ministers said, indeed, that if they pur- alternative between receiving . her with all ti:c ho used any other conduct than that which they had wage of a Queen, and adopting the course we adopted, they would exhibit what he had curiously which was to state, that we had refused her termed " a contrast to themselves !"—(Near, hear! mage because we had accusations to bring ag,C:no and laughter.)—For his part, he (Lord Grey) believed 'her? But the Noble Lord has said that his Ma that if such a thing were possible—if the present Mi. jesty's Ministers moved, with all the rapidity wh;tf nisteis could really exhibit such a thing as " a con- the forms of the House would admit, th e refetence of trast to themselves"—they would confer the greatest t h e su bj ect to a S ecret C omm i ttee . It is true thzu advantages on the country I And, indeed, if any such a motion was made, bat it is also true that we one thing could be more in " contrast to them- were perfectly ready to attempt any course sheet cf selves" than another, it was the supplicatory Address retracting the charges by which the inquiry could ! , e which they caused to be offered to the Queen, which prevented. There was nothing inconsistent in all tins. presented certainly a strong " contrast” to the accu. As to the irregular allu,ion made by the Noble Lori sation which they had brought against her. The to expressions said to have been used in another terms of that Address and of the accusation were in place, he took them probably from accounts in which direct " contrast,' for it said that they were induced they were misrepresented, and your Lordships u1;1 to make this request of her Majesty because " there- observe, among the consequences of this departuie suit of further discussions could not but be distress- from order, that it has led to remarks upon exp., ing to her Majesty's feelings, disappointing to the ions, the author of which cannot be present to co.. hopes of Parliament, derogatory from the dignity of r.ct any mistatement. But the Noble L d has trca - the Crown, and injurious to the best interests of the et the Resuluti in all along as if it was that of his Empire r —(Hear, hear).—And yet their Lordships Majesty's Ministers. Ifhe means that it received the were now told, that a proceeding acknowledged to support of Ministers, his impression is perfectly true; be certain to produce such a result as this was the but if he means that they knew anything of it, even only mode which the public good required a moment before it was proposed, his impression o s (Cheers).—He now said, that such a mode as that of perfectly untrue. Without attaching any importance inquiry must be " injurious to the best interests of to particular words, I deny the principle of the No the Empire;" and if they agreed in that, he would ble Lord upon this part of the question, and contend, ask what motive had they in encountering an inquiry that even if Queen is guilty, the prosecution may ftaught with such injurious consequences?—(Hear). be fairly lamented. as derogatory to the dignity of It was remarkable, too, that this result was specified the Crown, and injurious to the best interests of the in the Address without any alternative. That result country. But it does not follow from thence, that was unavoidable, whatever other consequences might there may not be another course more derogator) to follow. If it meant anything, then,. it meant that that dignity, and more injurious to those Litereits. those measures' ought to be avoided which . would The withdrawing of the charge would be tar mole produce consequences so fatal to the interests of the so, but this does not prove the first position to be country. He knew, indeed, that the word " inju- absurd. There is no view of this question which does rious" was meant to apply to the exposure of the al- not present considerable difficulties. I trust the House leged misconduct of the Queen. But he did not will do Ministers the justice to believe that they a:e think that would really be the case. If the Queen willing to avoid the prosecution, if possible, though had conducted herself licentiously, the only way that they cannot consent to reti act the charges. lee remained for preserving the honour of the Crown Noble Lord has said, that the House ought tie be on was to separate her from his Majesty. The only its guard to uphold its character as a great judicial other way for preserving the honour of the Crown body. I hope it will do so ; I doubt- not but it will woes to shew that her conduct was pure and unsullied. do so, for it must be a matter of satisfaction to us all But when their Lordships were told that it was de- to reflect, that if there is in the whole world a trihu rogatory from the honour of the Crown to proceed nal unsullied by a single instance' of misconduct, it with such an inquiry, he would ask them if they were is that of the English H ouse o f L or d s . I maintain prepared, when the result was so described, to pro- that the circumstances which have accrued, :o ceed with it? For his own part, he would not take from constituting an objection to the original course, upon himself that responsibility. As an honest Mem- have taken away the only objection that could be ber of that House, he would say to the Ministers-- supposed to exist against it. The Noble Earl has " Take back your accusations, and if you feel it ne- said, that the other House of Parliament may pre cessary to persevere in your present course, proceed ceed by impeachment, and has questioned the ince / - with it in another shape; and on your own tesponsi- pretation given by my Noble and Learned Fr iend on bility"—(Hear, hear).—" These are the grounds," the Woolsack, to the statute of Edwa r d t h e Thi r d.— said his Lordship, "on which I solicit you to rescind But the interpretation of that statute doe, not depend the proceeding—a proceeding in which you have al- on the opinion of my Noble and Learned Friend ready encountered so many difficulties, and in which alone ; it is supported by every considerable legal the further you advance the more you will be in- authority that has been consulted, and the Act has volved in obstacles and perplexities. I have no been referred to most of the first authorities in the earthly interest or object in the course lam pursuing kingdom : the Act pronounces it High Treason in a but the desire that justice should be done. I know subject to commit adultery with the Queen Consort nothing of the accusations; I stand here, hoping, from or her eldest daughter, but it does not mention one my attachment to the Crown that the result will not word about the woman, though it must be supposed be such as is described in the terms of the Resolu- to contemplate her consent. I think it would. be a Lion. I stand before you perfectly impartial, know- strong interpretation of the Act, if it was a recent ing nothing of the accusation, nothing of the defence. one, to say, that as it was High Treason in the man, But as the accusation has been made, there is no so it must be by implication in the woman consent way of getting off but by an impartial adjudication ing, as these can be no accessories in Treason; but, and decision. That the decision may be impartial, having the practice of centuries to direct us. we have and not only impartial, but above suspicion, I intreat a right to assume that the interpretation of the Act your Lordships to abandon a course inconsistent with is known to the Public and to the Illustrious Persons. the best principles of the law, and calculited to re- In the case of a foreigner, however, who owes no volt the mind of the country, in a case ip which its allegiance to the Crown, it is no crime; so that the feelings are so deeply interested. As a necessary construction by which a Queen's offence becomes step towards the accomplishment of an object so de- cognizable under the Act is lost in such a case, for sirable, I shall conclude by moving your Lordships how can it be said that she is giailty of High Treason that the Order of the Day be discharged." when he is not? But the Noble Lord had said, that The Earl of LIVERPOOL rose and said—" My though it may not be High Treason, it may be Lords, I certainly heard, as no doubt you all have, great offence amounting to a high crime and snis the speech of the Noble Lord with considerable mfr. demeanour. There again I am at issue with the prise ; He began with a legal and constitutional ar- Noble Lerd. Befo r e i t can b e s h ewn to b e a high gument against the mode of proceeding which you crime and misdemeanour, it must be shewn to be a have hitherto thought fit to adopt ;he told you that crime by the common law of the country. But I the present was no party question, and that he wished say adultery is to crime at common law, it is merely to meet it on great and solemn principles of justice a civil injury, and as such i,s liable to compensation alone. How must I have been surprised then, how in damages. It is true, that a public officer, guilty of must your Lordships have been surprised, to hear the a breach of duty in the execution of his office, is Noble Lord conclude his speech with one of the most punishableby_ Parliament fo r a m i s d emeanour . b ut t h en violent, personal, and in fl ammato r y a tt ac k s t h at his offence is a misdeme anour b y common law a l so, aod ever has been delivered in either House of Parlia- nothing shall induce ape to create a crime for the occa ment ?—(Hear; hear, from Me Ministerial Benches). sion, which is not one already by the laws of the coun- That attack lam prepared to repel as the Noble Lord try. We now come to consider what is the only course has made iv—by reference to the comparative claims of proceeding possible for us to adopt. The only one of both parties, as deducible from the principles that we can resort to is a legislative one; it may be for a have governed the political conduct of each. The divorce, it may be fora Bill of pains and pate/tier, Noble Lord has charged us with incapacity, and ar- but whatever it is, it must of necessity be a eSu l ' I a gued all along upon this measure as part of that sys- tive proceeding. I find, by reference to theiournals, tern of vacillation he has been pleased to impute to that it is competent to either House to originate the us, and afresh instance of our incompetency to steer measure. Then comes the question with which de the vessel of the State. This is not the occasion for House ought' to commence in the present case. entering upon the subject ; but whenever y the ocea- say, if the proceeding is to be of a judicial nature, it sion comes, I shall se prepared to meet it, willing is better it should originate here than in the Howe of and anxious to be tried by this House, the country, Commons, and for this plain season, that you are n and posterity, on the issue which the Noble Lord has the habit of examining the witnesses upon oath. Tie proposed—willing to lie tried, on a review of the last adjournment of the other House last night was to vain eight years ofour opinions, acts; and measures, in the for us; and what my Noble Friend stated on that or course of tat period, as contrasted with the councils casion was, that if some legislative measure was nil of the Noble Lord opposite, whose councils would commenced in this House, he would propose o ne in` have led to the ruin of the country, to the prostration the House of Commons. We now came to this of her strength, and dignity, a n d i n d epen d ence, and lative measure. Som e p rev i ous inquiry, is oecessail to the inttoduction of evils from which there could before we can determine what itathould be, or whe be no hope of deliverance. . Upon these grounds I ther it should take place at all; and I maintain, that say again, that I am willing to be tried by Parlia- an inquiry by a Secret Committee is less calcalated to ment, the country, and posterity—(llcar, hear, front prejudice the Illustrious Person than an inquiry a the Ministerial Benches). Before Igo into the sub- Committee of the whole House. Is it fitting Ira ject of this night's debate, I have no difficulty in the first subject in the realm should be put on her stating the whole of my conduct as connected with trial by the mere ip se dizit of the Minister, with these proceedings. I have no difficulty ht saying, out Parliament interposing any authority of its owe? that without reference to particular words alluded to The Noble Lord has assumed - that the deciiital oft `.r ihy the Noble Lord in contradiction to the rules ofi Committee must be one, that - It must migussatily L. . ,~.~ " jittiom ~ : ~ . • . , • ` 4 I N NimiiMl A , 11 , sk,