Star. — London, England, 1812-04-29 00:00:00

P4IRI.IAMEN2W fir PROCEEDINGS. HOUSE OF LORDS, APRIL. 241. A Mesfelge tram the House of CommontkougLt up thA Tri,h Grain Distilljtiou Prohibition 1011, and sLver.‘i Private yit.ich were rtad a firs. time. PROD ESTANT DISSENTEIt S. I.ord A 971) prest,n.el a Pei Pion from the ib...ee deno minationt,of Protestant Diswenters in London nil We.tini. titer, praying for a repeal of all the disabili:lee and pen.dti..s under which they stood. Bail STANHOPE rose not merely to implore. the Hini:e to listen to the prayer of this Petition, but also to hi, former notice of bringing in a BiU exactly consonant with the prayer of this Petition, and be trusted he should be able to bring in his Bill in a very short time. The Petition was ordered to lie on the table. FAST INDIA CHARGER. • The Duke of DEVONSHIRE presented a Petition frornWor tester, against the renewal of the East India Charter. The Eel a BA LCARRAS presented a Petition to the same effect from I ancaster. The Marquis of S !'AFFORD presented a 'Petition from the Merchants, and others, of Walsal, in Staffordshire, praying for a ' discontinuance of the East ludia Company's Monopoly. Lord GR.F.NVILI E presented a Petition from Bristol, against the East India Charter; and, in some observations with which he prefaced it, declared, that if the business was not speedily laid -before the House in its details, resolutions on the general subject would be moved. He professed himself hostile, to the idea of confining the trade to a particular port, and to introducing the subject into the House by bill. The-Esti of BUCKINGHAMSHIRE alledged Lord Cren ' vin'e's conduct on the point hi 1793, when he brOught this sub ject up 1at•: In the Ses,fori, and proceeded by Bill. ' Lord GRENVILLE said, that the state of the country was altogether different at that time ; that' the opening of the trade was not male matter of pohlic request; and that the trade of England Was peculiarly flourishing at the time. The Fart Of LIVER POOL was surprised at the Noble Baron's (Grenville) 'want of recollection on the subject. A number of yezitions were sent in, in 1793; an arrangement actually took plate In the tow Charter on the strength et those petitions;. and it war notorious, that 1783 was a year of unexampled distress among tiee Nlticantil. interest. - MR. MADISON'S MESSAGE. Lord HOLLAND rose to put a question to the Noble Secretary of State, respecting a rumour which had made a considerable impression in America.— There had been a Message, accompanied by certain documents, as proofs, communicated to Congress by the President of the United States, complaining of a conspiracy, under the sanction and knowledge of the Government of this country, and of a distinguished Officer in our part of America, to effect a disunion between the Eastern and Western parts of the United States. Now his question was, whether this Message of the .President of the United States had come offi cially to the knowledge of the Noble Secretary of State,. and whether the allegations contained in it were true, as affecting the credit of the Government of this country, and that distinguished Officer? The Farl of LIVERPOOL replied, that these do cuments had not come to his knowledge in aft official way. He felt no &fficuity in stating (without any reservation whatever), for himself and others con nected in the Government' with him, that there never had been. any :4tempt, design, or wish, en the part of this Government, to effect any separation or dis union la:mei:li any parts of the United States—or to foment any dissatisfaction towards the Government of that country ; nor had any individual been em ployed by the Government on such service. He wished also to state, that any employment of such individual vas unknown to the Giivernment, and that be was employed by that respectable Officer merely to - procure such inforMation as might be useful for the interests of this country in that quarter, and for the good of Vs' Majesty's service. But, on the part of that respectable Officer and himself, he disclaimed any intention of fomenting any divisions in the Go vernment of the finited States.._ _ _ Lord HOLLAND---" As I now understand the 1 individual was not employed by his Majesty's Go. vernment, am I to understand that the Noble Lord was not aware of his'being,emPloyed by Sir James Craig ?" The gall of LIVERPOOL— 4, I mean to state that Government never ordered Captain Henry to be employed. Government never knew the fact of his lia%;ing been employed till he returned to Quebec; and, with respect to his being employed by Sir James Craig, I firmly believe it was lor information only." Lord HOLLAND said, it appeared to him to be impossible that this Government had received no- do tumegts respecting the employing of Captain Henry in 7a.hatevir set vire he had been put by Sir J. Craig; and it there were such documents,be busted the liobie Secretary of State would see the very extreme pro prietr,k, nay, the absolute necessity, of laying such papers heiore the house.--Here the Matter dropped. GOLD LOIN DIIL. • • • • • Upon the Order of the day for entering on the se coed wading i?fthe Gold .Coin Bill, ' • Lord' BATHURST rose to hate, tbai frois•stlit .Ttkd passed in another HUttse upon the subject he did not 'spec; that it would undergo much debate there. iiis.l. r ordship entered into a wide and eircuisstantiat *wiry into the question in bearings all its beangs and rela tions, recurring to the various periods of history' in cif ich ;hp cpnr 4 e said rate of exchange wai n ted.with the state of the current coin, and the c u m. • Inerclat credit of the nation. • Lord 4ING maintained, that the present .Lai, reality, Constituted Bank-paper a legal tender fur the -4; drrein coin of the realm. Tice Bill of last year pro. (Acted paymenta iii paper out of Court, and the uniendment:of this year protected payments of paper Court. This his Lordship regarded as a new tent in finance, sand a triumph of Bank-paper over anc i ent bcindsilid engagements. The same language had • distinguisheti the introduction of the Bill in this Ses .siou as what bad accompanied it in the Session pre ceding, 'lamely, that unless a permanency was be. - • atosvold upon the Bank-paper, we should not be able to napp..tge , a successful war in the Peninsula. •, By - thp enactment•of such. a measure we were exhaust-. trig ourselves and in - :nerving the military against the ;day whcn the barle might more tiosely approach us. - .Th e sale asiurauces had been held out on the issu :,ing ot. tem French; astignats, and th , z same reasons . rveaLfor adopting the•measure ; but we refused to fot ranked the disastrous consequences which at.. '...tended the mighty policy. • We might indeed talk of restraining within moderate kounds the isiues of 4,paper ; but while we conversed concerning the we issued a quantity of Exchequer Bills, so augment• the issue of Bank.notes, by having Bids disbursed at the Bank: On the whole he trepan to declare, that by all appearance the Bill had originated in fraud and folly—folly on the part of the Government, in attempting to enrich the Bank by a fraudulent measure. Earl STANHOPE declared the swaddling clothes of the infant (the Bill) were very fine, but they were not of his putting on. The nursery maids merited all the praise—(z/ laugh.) His habitation was sur rounded by schemers, and numerous were the inven tions which they had laid before him. One had disco vered the perpetual movement, another lad dreamt of the longitude, and the third, equally sagacious, had found out the philosopher's stone ; but not one of them all equalled in rarity of invention the State al chymist (Lord King) who had determined to make gold appear, v l / 4 here, he said, no gold was to be found. (it laugh.) When Bonaparte heard of the glorious measure he, illuminated Paris-- (al laugh.) The Dloble Lord had maintained that the price of corn was af fected by the metallic currency, an opinion which recalled to his mind a notable remark on the comet which appeared during the last year. Two gentle men of intelligence amongst incomprehensible things, standing one evening at Margate, one declared to the other, that the tail of the comet which he then saw streaming so brilliantly along the sky had been shuffled to and fro aye, and by an easterly wind too," replied his friend. So he would maintain, that as the comet's tail had been waved about by an eas terly wind, so had the price of corn been influenced by the metallic currency. Lord DARNLEY supported the Bill. The Earl of LAUDERDALE opposed the Bill, inasmuch as it tended to enrich 600 individuals con cerned with the Bank, to the manifest injury of the nation. The Earl of WESTMORLAND supported the measure at considerable length. Lord GRENVILLE said, that the occurrences of every hour displayed the British nation persisting in a course which had overwhelmed other nations with misery. We were called upon to concede a measure which would lay the nation prostrate at the feet of the Bank Directors, without any restrictions put upon them but - what their own discretion die •tated. The Noble Lord (Grenville) in conclusion contended, on the necessity of making the Bank in dependent of the Government, and the Government independent of the Bank. Lord LIVERPOOL replied to Lord Grenville at considerable length. The opposition of that Noble Lord applied rather to the'sneasure of 1797 than to the Bill before the Home. If lie were of opinion, that the Bank ought to resume its cash payments, still he should say, the Bill before them was neces sary for the justice and security of the Public. As to what had been said about two prices—about a gold price and a paper price, he maintained, that there were not, generally speaking, any such thing in existence.—(Loud cries of hear, hear, from Lord: Grenville and Lauderdale). Lord LAUDERDALE was surprised at what had fallen from Lord Liverpool, and to strew him that there were two prices, he should, on Friday next, move for a Committee to inquire into the Bank con nexions with the Government, &c. &c. After some further observations tram Lord LIVER POOL and Lord LAUDERDALE, the Bill was read a se cond time, and ordered to be committed. AMERICA. Lord HOLLAND again adverted to Mr. Henry's correspondence with Sir James Craig, and inquired whether the Noble Lord (Liverpool) intended to lay it officially before the House ? The correspondence authorised Henry to produce certain papers to cer tain individuals, who might feel inclined to separate the Eastern Country from the Western, under the authority of this Government ; and it was of such nature, that it involved the honour and character of the country. If the Noble Secretary declined laying before them the correspondence, he (Lord Holland) should move for it on Friday next. Lord LIVERPOOL felt satisfied, that when the matter shall come obe known, a very different con struction would be put on it than had been given it by the Noble Lord (Holland). Lord HOLLAND expressed his resolution to per severe, since Lord Liverpool bad declined to answer his inquiry. The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, when the House adjdurned at ONE o'clock. ti HOUSE OF COMMONS. Mr. WESTERN presented a Petition from a number of Free holders of the county of Essex, praying a Reform in the Repre sentation of the People in Parliament. Ordered to lie on the Table. A Petition was also presented from the Woollen-Manufactv c rers of the county of Somesset, against the Monopoly of the East India Company. Mt. DICKINSON, after a few preliminary observations, ob tained leave to bring in a Bill to amend the Act of the 12 Geo. enabling Magistrates at Quarter Sessions to order repairs of County fridges. he Holt Forest, Woolmer Forest, and Parkhurst Forest Bills sevenillywent through a Committee, to be repeatted to-morrow. On the motion of Mr. ROSE, a Committee of the whole House was fixed for to-morrow, to take into consideration the Duties on Copper. Mr. ii.OSE obtained leave to bring in a Bill for the more easy Jl22B:fling of ships employed in the Southern Whale Fishery. The Tobacco-pipe Clay Bill W tad a second time. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER gave notice that to-pioirow he should move for the introduction of a Bill to re gulate, with a view to re press the issue of Local Tokens. - Sir JOHN NEWPOR gave notice, that this day fortnight he should bring under the cortudtration of the House the Kt pensibure of the Funds destined to improve the'lnland Naviga tion of Ireland. On the motion of Mr. Rosa, Accounts were ordered to be laid before the House of the real value of the Exports of the King dom, from January, Ixos, to January, 1811; also Accounts of the Number and 'lonnage of Ships that had cleared inwards and out wards during the same period, w ..1 the number of m e n an boys by which they were manned, ap-citying such ships as were foreign. Mr. LYTTLETON presented a Petition, signed. be observed, by .1460 people, respe,ctable inhabitants of Kidderminster and its vicinity. it set forth the difficulties under which the manufac turers of that part of the country laboured, and prayed that mea sures might be adopted for the attainment of an honourable peace, fur laying open the commerce to India, and that the House would adopt such.measurs_for relieving the commerce and manuf4c- Wts of tbcacountry as they might deem expedient. PETITIONS AGAINST VIE ORDERS IN COUNCIL. Lord - STANLEY, in rising to advert to these Pe titions, and the subject with which they were so inti mately connected. .namely, the Orders in Council, adverted to the origin of the Orders, and observed, atilt they had or►gtnated in a measure adopted in 1806 by the French Government against the com merce of this country. These Orders were adopted to counteract the ill effects which it was contended those measures of the French would otherwise have had on our commerce. That these were unnecessary • great quantities of got'als to America ; but he begged Gentleman would consider the effect such a nreaserre would have on our trade to the North. In lest year our exports to the Noah amounted to kl 1500,00 0; thisas as I CO,OOO ro: 're than in IS: ;an had tl'e pleasure i.l stating, that during-she last eight weeks we had been gaining upwards of AlOO,OOO a week upon the cnacornitant. weeks of last year. Our trade to America had Levi r ye: exceeded £12,000,000; and • of late years, prior to the issuing of the Orders iN Council, had been butt tfi,p(mooo, and last year but £2,000,000 ; by rescinding the Orders in Council, we should tisk our trade in the North hr die chance of gaining an addition of £!,000,0(0; mid liable to the objection of the Americans to our system of blockade. But while we were looking to our situ!. Lion, let us look to America : the American Ez ports had generally amounted to 45,000,0(10 of do. '2O lays, of which upwards of ,000,000 usually came to this country ; about 2,300,000 to France ; and the rest to Spain and Portugal. While the Ame. rican shipping was every year declining, the shipping had considerably encreased, since ISOts, be. l ore the Orders in Council were issued. The amount now was 12,711, and foreign ships had consider a bly decreased. No foreign ship d to ga %viten: a British ship could go. This principle \VAS most strictly adhered to in regard to the gran:ing of Li cences. If the Orders in Council were repealed, the West India interest would feel the conseluences most severely ; for the Americans would immediately be , come the carriers of •foreign Colonial produce to France. In the Island of Cuba and in th?. Brazils there were vast quantities of sugar, which the Ante ricsns would immediately take to France, if the trade were opened to them by the rescinding of the Orders in Council. He even believed that the cot ton trade would suffer by such a measure. He wouid now come to the licensing system. Had not Licenses been granted, no trade whatever could be carried ou with tire enemy's ports. Since April last year, the course of exchange had risen with Hamburgh ISt Iper cent. and had risen proportionably with Amster. dam and Paris. Under all the depression of trade on the Continent, he could assure the House that a very considerable trade was now can) ing on upon the Continent, and he should most anxiously deplore any measure for repealing the Orders is Council.— He would now trespass on the indulgence of the House upon a personal point. In a Petition now oa the table, he was represented as holding sinecure • offices, and as expressing sentiments that manifest:4 an insensibility to the distresses of the country.— ' He solemnly declared, that not an expressiOn fell from him which could be construed into an offence. He happened accidentally to be present when a depu. tation 'from Biriningham waited on his Right Hon. Friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer), and be went into the room as an intruder. He did then ray, 'that the state of the country might not admit of the distresses being relieved. But to public man was more misrepresented or ill-treated on this point than himself. He could say, that no man had more in tercourse with the lower order of mechanics thin himself. Nb man was ever more ready to open his door to them—no mat; more inclined to 'give them advice, or relieve their distresses ; and ne would throw himself upon the House.—(llear, !oar,)—sad ,ask, %hither he was a man likely to treat with levity people labouring under distresses ? To the Gentlemen BirMingham he had thought it 'dm duty to state his real opinion as to the Orders in : Council. The first duty of any man was not to mislead people la• ! bouring under difficulties, and who should apply to ' him. He acted upon this principle at the late Oita. view ; and he did endeavour to impress on the minds. of the Gentlemen, that no one possible advantage could arise from complying with the general call of persons who laboured under an ei ror on that subject. He concluded with stating, that he had no object= to the motion. Sir C. MORDAUNT made some statements go . lathe to the distresses in Staffordshire. Mr. DUGDALE said, be had beets informed that the Right Honourable Gentleman did treat the Bir. d re y s m pe en ct . ; b m u i t n g t t h ia a t m b D e ep did u ta m t i a o k n e wit e h g c o r e m a p t a civility t e d a might hate been determined fit m the fate which awaited similar measures adopted by the French.in 1736. These mea:•ures were then ineffectual, and would they not have been ovally so now ? Had the French any inure powerful naval force now to enforce their Decrees than they had at that time? Or were We lees able now than at that period to have protected our commerce ? Indeed, the French Orders, previous to the passing of our Orders in Connell, had remains d harmless—but so soon ;as our Orders we►e passed . , the effect of them on our commerce was visible. Fo reign States immediately became disgusted with our conduct, and excluded us from their ports. The ge neral distress and pressure which was felt by th►is country, he thought no one would deny—(Hear, hear,)—and, connected as he was with one of the counties which had suffered most materially under this pressure, he could not forbear calling the atten tion of the House to the Petitions which had been presented from that county (Warwickshire.) Some persons had supposed, that the abolition of sinecure places would give relief to the country under its dis tress; he feared, for one, little good would result to the public from that object being carried into effect. Others thought much relief might be derived from the non-renewal of the East-India Company's Charier. That, perhaps, might do much to alle viate the distresses of the country ; but even should such a measure be, determined on, it could not take place for two years ; and the state of this devoted country was such, as would not admit of such delay. The Noble Lcrd then adverted to the ex pression which had been imputed to Mr. Rose.— He did not believe, that if the expression had been used by the Right Honourable Gentleman, it was used with any feeling of insensibilisy towards the dis. tresses of the people; but certainly the Right Hon. Gentleman should have been a little more guarded in his expressions. The Declaration lately published in this country, however, did prove that this country and France were in the situation described by the Right Honourable Gentleman, and that it was now a question of which could longest exist under the. pressure of that distress with which they were bur thened ? With respect to the Orders in Council, since the petitions had been presented, he had made particular enquiries into the state of the counties from whence they had come, and had generally found the statemeu►ts of distress contaiaed in them correct. The advanced price of provisions was such as to render it impossible for the poor to obtain sus tenance. In the place which he represented, the prin cipal part of the food of the manufacturer was oat. meal and potatoes, and in that place potatoes, which were usually about 7s. for 2401b5. were now advanc ed in price to 17s. and the same quantity of oatmeal which could formerly be purchased for 325. was now 46i. The general earnings of the manufacturer was from 9s. to Ils. per week, and how was he with that sum to provide for a wife and family of children ?;— The Noble Lord then entered into a review of the state of Liverpool now, and compared it with what it was in 1810, at which time the docks were full, • and there were a greater number of ships waiting to get into the docks than were now in them ; and more than one-third of the manufacturers and labourern were now unemployed. With respect to the distresses, of other parts of the kingdom, he would not go into them ; they might be found in the Petitions lying on the table. Under these circumstances, he Ihiiught, there wss but one line left for the House to pursue, and at the conclusion of his speech he should move for a Committee of the whole House, and that the Petitions now lying on the table should be referred, to the consideration of that Committee. Whatever might be the decision of the House, he must submit to it 1 but it was almost too much to expect that a population nearly starving should be prepared to submit to all the privations to which they were re-, duced, without a probability of their termination, He believed, whatever had been done by them had arisen from their distress, and that there was much in their case to pardon and to pity. The Noble Lord concluded with moving, that the Petitions from Birmingham, Liverpool, &c. against the Orders in Council, should be referred to a Committee of the whole House. Mr. ROSE observed, the Noble Lord, in the corn- tioned. mencement of his speech, had said the Berlin and Mr. BARING admitted the great attention and Milan Decrees were no new measures ; that similar civility always shewn by the Right Hon. Gentleman ones had been issued on former occasions, and that it to all parties who met him on the subject of trade. — was a mere municipal regulation. He wished the But the compatisonin question was uotortunate, on Noble Lord would attend to him, whilst he stated to account of she depression it must have caused in the the House the origin and effects of these Decrees, country. With respect to the 'Oiders in Council, and say then whether these were - municipal Decrees. there was no question at issue between this canal The Right Hon. Gentleman then went at consider. and America on the subject of blockade; and to able length into the nature of the French Decrees, and prove this, he quoted the correspondence between the effect which, after the peace of Tilsit, had been Mr. Foster and Mr. Munroe. He admitted there occasioned by them to our trade, particularly by the were many doubts as to the propriety of repealing the Berlin Decree, which sent our ships and their cargoes' Orders in Council—(Hear, hcar4) The pest& n°7 back to this country. These proceedings called forth was, whether there was in America any ground far the Order in Council of November 1807, by which hostility against us ? He was sure that the Americus all ports in the North, from which we were excluded, had good ground to believe that the French Decreer were declared in a state of blockade. Soon after this were repealed. A Declaration to that effect had not the Milan Decree was passed, by which all vessels, only been contained in the Nomitesir, but bad b eets _ havingsßritith produce on b oar d, or having touched communicated to the American Government by tie% at a British port, were declared denationalized. The neral Turreau, the French Minister- Right Hon. Gentleman then went into a history of circumstance, he contended that there was not a the several other French Decrees and Orders in Coun- America that hottile mind which precluded an 1111/ 5 4/. ended, Oa t cil, which had been issued by each Government, and ble arrangement with us—and he also cont the of the conduct of France towards America, -as con- there were no instances of that gross pattiality o4 Right trasted with our conduct towards that country. By part of America towards France which the. i But . from everp the Milan Decree, all vessels 'which submitted to be Hon. Gentleman stated. He strongly searched should be considered as denationalized. the avaricious system acted upon by this coun try, wit's : 12 : That Decree had not been . rescinded, and there ore respect to our attempts to exclude neutrals t "'„_,., ; the American ships were still denationalized. With 1 carrying trade. -All the effects of the Orders i n Co t: , respect to ,the recent Declaration published in this cil were acne aw.ty by having certain ports m__ l : country, it declared that so soon as the Berlin -Continent open to neutrals ; for the Americans c oo l 's and Milan Decrees were -rescinded, our Orders in now supply France sith foreign colonial produce Council should be repealed—if we were to give up 1 through those ports. As to the state of nail! 1c0nae7.... 1 our Orders in Council, what would Ire the effect?! all that could be said about it was, that it wo "_, Was it certain that Ame r i ca wou ld then open her ; unfavourable now than twelve months ago' stud ports to us ?On the contrary—had not America re. I supposed iosprovernent was occasioned chtefHlb, ;. l ° peatedly declared th at i t " was not mere l y t h e O rders 'i nability at this time to purchase corn on the'.." I 11 , 1 Council which w e must give up, but we must re - ' ne nt . If we , cou hl o b ta in c orn, A large sum olnwr2 , linquish our system of blockade—that was, we must must have been sent out of the kingdom; awl' give up our maritime rights; and if' we did do so, he of course would affect theexchangeu was firmly. persuaded our . commerce would suffer I Lord CASTLEREAGH was readr2„yr e ill most materially. If the Orders in Council were re- . the proposed inquiry, merely to satisfy the scinded, every port in the world would be open to at large on the question before the Howse. -France, she , would get abundance of cotton, and begged this vote of his might not be . die would in a few months be enabled to meet us in that affording Any concession, or as antieil' a . un g d d i sOi branch of trade with thegreatest advantage. He was of the present question. The chief elle" dads. ready to allow that if the Orders in Council *ere re- ders in Oduntil was to retaliate a fre 4.14111 pealeff, it would afford great relief to our own manu- committed' against our commerce by _im - • facture/6 1 and that they would immediately export who, by sucb.recaliation must V aa l' " Pm .' • • .130, - meaw 4 ?:;- - .fib • OVSC p - 7111110