Star. — London, England, 1812-05-22 00:00:00

part—the House would then judge of the measures of the Administration, and proceed accordingly. These were the old fashioned principles of. the Consttu. tion, under which this country had long flourished ; and tl , ey were principles which, as long aslie had the honour of a seat in tlpit house, he would never abandon. Byt the Hon. Baronet had said, that a great man, acting upon such principles, had brought the country into its present difficulties: He had no Wish to conceal the (Lingers to whith the country was exposed, but the Hon. Baronet must remember, that the peat man, to whom he alluded had the confidence of the nation. If he were at a sea-port town, and saw 6. a. three masted, vessel come in after a hard fought ;battle, torn and shattered, with a great proportion ''of her men wounded, and many dying, would it be lairia:him to Charge the man who commanded the ship with these evils,. instead of giving him the praise due tp him, for the valour and skill with which he bad conducted himself in a most difficult and trying • sit4tion ?. Yet such was the actuation of the Hon. _ baranet against his departed Friend. With regard to the quEstion of Reform, he had always been fa vourable to its bitt he could not conceive how it was, .possible for any one to imagine, that a Pa r liam e ntary Reform could materially diminish the difficulties of the country. Still he was friendly to it, for clearing away some excrescences of the Constitution, arid con ' ciliating the well intentioned of all parties. Perhaps it might be said, that thisirotion did not go to pre. scribe to the Prince whom he should choose, bat to recommend the formation of a strong Administra tion but it was certainly fair to combine the motion with the speech by which it was introduced. It had been observed, that sufficient exertion had not been made to form an efficient .Administration. How did they, as Members of Parliament, know this ? Gen ' tlemen might have seen newspapers, and every one might attach to their reports what credit he chose ; but surely these could not be made the ground for 4ttch a proceeding as this. gven on the most trifling occasion's Members thought it necessary to call for papers as a foundation for their motions ; and surely this rule ought not to be dispensed with in a case of this importance. He should therefore vote for pro. ceeding to the ,Orders of the Day. For his own part he 'was perfectly ready to support any administration, (Loud cries of hear, and a faug4)—of whose measures he approved ; and it was a great evil in our present cir cumstances, that Gentlemen did not cast off their per sonal predilections—( Hear, bear,)—and combine to. nether like the crew of a ship to fight her to the last. On both sides there were men who really loved their country ; and he held him to be its best friend, who acted upon the principle which he had stated. • bir.FRANC IS BURDETT, in explanation, said, that in alluding to Mr. Pitt and Mr. Fox, he merely had in view to shew,, that under the present sys:em no good could be dcne, whatever might be,the abif lity, of the Minister. The Hon. Mr. WARD said, that if he thought the Motion in-any way subversive of a Constitutional principle, he would not support it, even if the tem porary advantage were to be Much greater ; but he did not see that it was unconstitutional—he was sure it was not without precedent, for that House to ad vise the Soveieign upon the formation of an Admini stration. He admitted that this was not to be resor ted to frequently, or on slight occasions, but no occa sion was ever More important than the present ; and unless the principle was altOgether denied, as it was _prudently denied by the Hun. Member who spoke last, it mnst be allowed, that it ought to be acted Vaon. No person doubted the dangers and difficul ties of the country, both as to its external relations and its internal condition. In speaking of the pre. sent Administration, it would be a most disagreeable .task to - go from office to office, and- point out the in cornpeteacy of ind;viduals : and this task he sficuld spare himself. This, indeed, was a matter of public feeling, and Gentlemen could not but be, in some aneaSure, aware of the sense of the public on, this question. Even before the death of Mr. Perceval, it was objected that the Administration was hardly strong enough ; but it was then answered, that such was the ability of Mr. Perceval, and such his charac ter, both in and put of the HOuse, that it supplied the want of strength in other respects. They, there fore, who gave this reason for their confidence in the Adrnin•stration, would pay an ill compliment to the memory of Mr. Perceval, if they continued to place the same confidence in persons so little calculated to carry even their own principles into effect. With re spect to the alledged attempt to procure an addition of strength to the Administration, be considered it in much the s.ime light as the attempt made for the same purpose in F. Isruary List only that it was even less sincere, and that it would have been even more ~lisgracelul have acceded to it. What' w a s t h e puttee of the props sition pat leao those who had been called upon vikiin the present Administr a ti on 1. Th e y ha .beeta asked, for the, sake of mere place, to surrender ' their principles— to disgrace their character—to vio late their solemn pl: t iges recently given. If he were to praise them for the rejection el such an oar, they might consider it as a very poor comil ment. No honest -man could have agreed to such a proposition. As great as were the talents of the Noble Marquis, (Welli•sley) and his Hon. Friend opposite (Canning) rt they had acceptied office under such circumstances, all the exertions of their highest abilities could never tafterwards have placed tLem on a level, in point of coadence, with men of moderate talents. Was this ready to be treated like a sincere, a Dona file at, tempt, to form a string Administration ? The peo ple of this country must be blind indeed, if they did not see that the object was to leave matters precisely as they were, (Hear, hear), to afford some pretence for the continuation of this Adininistration ; and to avoid 'by this colourable pretext, the.public odium witch they knew they :nust encounter if they presu med to remain without an endeavour to strengthen themselves- by more efficient aid. (Bear, hear.) — But the House had been told that this was not the' time for such a - motion ; that they ought to wait till they had experience of the measures of the Ministers. —This Was an old and specious argument.- He maintained. however, that this was not a time to wait till they coul4 nicely canvass this and that pv.icu lar measure. The time, the circumstances, demand ed an Administration which could do something by authority,•—an Administiation with some name and credit to give it strength in public opii.iun. Even those who approved of the present system ought to consider-, whether the present wen were capable of supporting it ? But what must the usture of that sys tem be, to which there was such a general hostility. that all the arts and blandishments ot the Court could not procure any others to attempt to support it, eit c,:pt the present Ministers? If this Administration rested on any principle, if it Was Any thing it was Anti-Catholic—and this Anti-Catholic Ministry came to this House supported by the Noble Lord opposite, —(if loud try of litar,ltear.)—lt as for those who were not very friendly to ,Catholic concessions to con sider whether they were likely to succeed in their ob. ject by such instruments, and whether it would not be better to trust to an Administration which could talk in a firm tone to the Catholics—conceding to them what, was consistent with the Constitution, and resisting all unreasonable demands. it appeared to him, that the House was called upon to decide whe ther they should ever advise the Crown on such an occasion:—whether they should not surrender one ot their most important privileges, and agree to support an Administration formed upon a principle cf mere favourition. Lord WALPOLE contended, that the proposition for strengtheninpjhe Administration was made with real sincerity. e present motion was certainly unconstitutional, as the House had no right to inter fere by any prevloua advice in the formation of a Ministry. Mr. RYDER thought that the proposition, if adopted, would be a violation of one of the most im portant and fundamental prerogatives of the Crown, The Honourable Mover had presumed, that neither those who had been at present nominated, or those whom it might be in contemplation to nominate, could by any possibility form an efficient Administration, and therefore wished Parliament to interfere before the Administration *as actually formed. He thought the Honourable Gentleman ought to have brought forward some precedent before he proposed such an extravagant measure. In that case, which had been alluded to, Mr. Fox had not brought forward any motion to interfere with the exercise of the Royal Prerogarree in the appointment of an Administra tion • but his proposition was me re ly f or a dd ress i ng his Majesty not to dissolve the Parliament previous to the return of the new writs on the appointment of Ministers. Even then he apologized for bringing for ward such a motion in the absence of Mr. Pitt : and yet in those times, which were times of great heat and irritation, no such motion as the present had been made. The circumstances of the case were then dif ferent; for an Administration had been dismissed, who had been uniformly supported by great majorities in Parliament, and a new Administration had been formed of men who had been in the habit of opposing those measures which had been sanctioned by Parlia ment. To those Men it had also been objected, that they had come into power by improper and uncon stitutional influence. Could any such vbjection be made to those who wer e now Mi n i ster , ? They were the very men who had been conducting fir many 1 years, the Government of the country, in a manner that P rliament sanctioned by its approbation, and 1 which he believed, had also the approbation of the country. As to hims e lf, h e h a d to state, that from i 1 circumstances with which it was unnecessary to trou -1 bls the House; he-did no t f orm a part o f t h e new Administration. He must state, however, in answer to an Honourable Gentleman, (Mr. Ward), - that the efforts made to incr:ase the strength of the Govern ment, and the proposals to that effect, were made with the utmost sincerity. He was convinced that the Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Canning) coedd not say, that he believed that there was any in sincerity in the offer. As to the particular difficulty which prevented thlt Right Honourable Gentleman from accepting the offer, those who made it certainly did not consider that it would have been an insupera ble obstacle. As to the opinions which he had re cently delivered on the Catholic question, and the no tice of a motion he had given upon that subject—they supposed that he might have thought it unnecessary for him to make such a motion if I.e became a Mem ber of the Government, as in that case he would - have opportunities of calling the attention of his colleagues to the subject in the Cabinet, whenever he judged proper. If that point of difference had then been his only objection to join the Administration, it was na tural to suppose that it might have•thus been 'remov ed. He understood him, however, recently to have titken up the opinion that those Catholic claims ought to be brought forward as Government measures by the Administration of the day. He must say that it was much to be regretted, that the Government had not been able to acquire that acces sion of strength of which they w e re so d es i rous; b ut. still the proposition had been made with the utmost sincerity on the part I of Government. He had in his possession, an ixpla. nation of the sentiments of the Administration on this i particular point, which had been laid before the Rigbt 1 Honourable Gentleman, and which he did not than r it necessary for him now to state. He thought, how ever, that the Administration now forming, ought not to be presumed altogether inefficient to carry on the business of the country, when it was recollected that there was at the head of our Councils, a Noble Lord (the Earl of Liverpool), whom Mr. Pitt, about ten years ago, declared to be, in his opinion, equal to any individual of the opposition in talent, inte grity, and character, with the exception only of Mr. Fox. When such a man was placed at the head of our councils, he saw no ground for deepairing.of the efficiency of the GovernMent. Mr. CANNING said, that it had been his with and his intention not to have troubled the House upon the present question. It was not because he thought that there was any thing in the general 4 proposition brought before the House, which included him ; or, which- would make it improper for him to speak toi ' the general question, whether the House should or should not address the Prince Regent, for the pur pose of obtaining an efficient Administration for the country in times of such difficulty as the present : the reason which , made him feel unwilling to speak on the present occasion, was, the fear that whatever might be said by him, would possibly be conceived by. some Gentlemen as proceeding from personal feeling,—from the result of an application which had : recently heed' made to him. He had, therefore, been very unwilling to deliver his sentiments on i the present occasion : but when he had been so pat-1 titularly called upon by his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. It yder) he thought be might appear wanting in re spect both to him and to the 'House, if he did not an swer the call which had been so pointedly made upon him. Hi: Right lion. Friend, however, must give hiss leave to sari, that Ws call appeared to him to be s omewhat unfairly made upon him. All that bad passed upon the occasion alluded to, had, by com. mon consent, been reduced to writing, in order td avoid the possibility of mistake upon the subject. If, then. he was placed at the bar ai his country to an swor for his conduct upon that occasion, he would ritfer to the written paper as the record upon which his defence was rested. Those who would not allow him to rest his defence on this written paper, might take the technical advantage, the unworthy advan tage (as it appeared to him) of that objection which had been suggested by the Right Hen, Member for Yorkshire, (Mr. Wilberforce,) thetsuch a paper was not regularly before Parliament, and therefore could not be properly referred to. He had to complain of his Right Hon, Friend for travelling out of the re cord,...-for not confining his observations to what ap peared on the face of that paper, but calling upon him to answer other points which were not in it. It had made it necessary for him to do, what was most alien to his feelings • and in defending his own con duct, he should fin d it impossible to avoid contrast ing it with that of others upon this point. His Right Him. Friend, in speaking of the sincerity' f tits pro posal, had asked whether if he had accepted of the proposal and joined the Administration, he should not still have conceived himself at liberty to speak or vote upon that point as he judged proper? Undoubt edly he should have considered himself at liberty so to do. If he was contented generally to fight against those principlei which he had decidedly av,ved, un der the banners of those who were decidedly hostile to them, he certainly might have made his solitary speech, or given his solitary vote whenever the guts von was brought forward in Parliament (Hear, hear.) He would not say but that there were. Honourable Men who might have thought that this was suffi cient ; but his mind was not of that construction. He conceived, that it was his duty to give whatever of influence or authority he possessed to the attainment of measures which he considered of the utmost im. pertance. lie hyped that the House would bear in mind that those words were wrung from Mm, and that it would be most painful for him, when obliged to jus. tify his own conduct, to appear as if he were throw. ling imputations en others. Ho allowed ;Int it was the exclusive prerogative of the Crown to grpo:itt its Ministers; and that before Parliament int meted with respect to the exercise of this prerogative, the case must bi strong and urgent. Gentlemen should,low ever, recollect that the House of Commons Stood in A double capacity.'- It was not only a council of coa t trout to the exercise of the prerogative, but it was al ways a c,itscil of advice to the Sovereign on all cases of great puhlic importance: if it, on some occasions ; exercised its right of advice, it might make it the less ' necessary to exercise its power of contioul. (Hear; hear.) He could not.bnt think that his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. R.) had made some whimsical distinction in his argument upon the precedent ef 1784; and that this single instancehad been selected by him with pecu liar infelicity. He said,that in 1784, Parliament did not venture to take such an - audaci, us step ii s to address his Majesty respecting the toimation of the new Ad ministration. What was it. they did ? • Why, accor ding to his Right Hon. Friend, they.kept within the bounds of the Constitution ; they did not address about the nett/ Administration, but they addresied his Majesty to preserve their own e x istence, and not to dssolve thtste—(4 /augh.). Now it the case bad been changed, and th. y 'had hapiened to have an dressed ab out the Administration that was forming, and it was now proposed to address against a disso lution, the very same arguments might be used, only changing the terms. It could then ease been said, that no Parliament had ventured to go the length; pt addressing the Sovereign against the exercise of his prerogative in the dissolution of Parliament, t ut that they only addressed him about the formation of an Administration. The proposition which was now submitted to the Flousewas, therefore, only deemed extravagant, because in 1764, it was upon the exer cise of enother, and fully as important a prerogat've, that the House thought proper to address iii ,Ma jesty. He niust declare, that he was as much taken by surprise in the present motion as the House was. He certainly never did expect such a proposition from the Hon. Gentleman uho brought it forward, and if he had supposed that there was one man in the House (of his independent situation) more than another like ty to join with the Noble Lord (Lord Castleteagh) against himself, in any- question that sboulo be brought on in that House, he did suppose that the Hon. Mover would be that man. He was however as much surprised at the course which had been pur sued to get rid of this motion, by moving that the other ordets of the day should be read. So that it appeared that this unheard-of motion—this direct at. tack upon the best prerogatives of the . Crown—this inversion of the constitutional line of proceeding, which threatened to wrest the sceptre from the Sove reign, was to be met by his laithtul Admini *ration, not uith a decided and indignant negative, but by reading the other orders of the day—(a laugh;) This unheard-of motion was opposed by a Coves nment strong enough, as it conceived, to carry on the Admi nistration of the country in the most difficult times, by passing to the other orders of the day. The Hon. Gentleman had said that he required of the Cabinet to concede their principles to him upon the Catholic question. He dui no such thi. He had merely inquired what were the present opinions entertained in the Cabine: upon that imports It subject . ? I'o that question be was answered by the N. ble Lord (Lord Liverpool) with great candour and manliness, that his own opinion remained the same ; and that he was not 'mare of any change in • the opieions of a, y of his colleagues. He must again remind the I-jouse that it will very unwillingly that be spoke of those mat ters ; but when called upon, as he had been, he could not avoid it. When be had heard the opi. nion of the head of the Government so distinctly pro• neunced, u.as it possible for him to doubt of the prac tical erect of that opinion entertained ley the head of ' the Government ? His Right Honourable Friend had said, that if he were to come isito office, the mo tion of which he had given notice would be unneces sary, as he would then have an opportunity of call ing the attention of his colleagues .to the su,bject.— He certainly in such case might move it in the Ca bidet, and be beaten, as he might now move it in this House and be beaten. He should however pre fer moving it in this House, in order to thew the. Public that he had done every *thing. that it was in his power to do to forward those principles Which be 4 -." had publiey professed. He nem bad minuti ae * the opinion that concession, unqualified and pe e do. tate, was the best course which could he taken e t the subject of the Catholic claims. His Right H. Friend (Mr. Rydct) had however myth mistepre. stoned hint when he spoke of' opinions very recently taken up. - The' opinion: Asa he then professed wets the same which he had professed ev.r 'Uwe his Be Honourable Friend had known him. What h e formerly said on the subject was, that wh en i t on considered that the King was decidedly hostil e I . those from cc* xientions scruples which wo e immoveable, he thought it better, for the peace the Sovereign and of the country, and better fee do 1 cause the Catholics theniselves, that the *As should not be urged it a time when it was ble that they could be successful. He had, as da account only, wished the question formerly lobe hie back, and had interposed his feeble shield bettie eet and the peace of his Sovereign; It was, howe ver , little too much to expect, that whatever he m e ld have yielded to the conscience of his Sovereign, b e should yield also to the convenience of K a ; 1 (Hear, Ittar.) He could not bring himself to f i t thought of planting with thorns the pillow of 1 aged and venerable Sovereign ; and he yaw e d rpeace as much as he valued the peace of ma t. He, however , never had treated the scruple; at , I Right Honourable Geotlemau (Mr. Percevid) eith the same respect. When he, therefore, saw th e ka I Lord (Liverpool) whose opinions on this salie nee , proached the nearest to those o f th e Ri g h t ft able Gentlemap, now placed at the head tithe cils of the country, how was it possible fur bia set to fear that there Would be no contending in the C s . binet on this question, against 'his predrimisaat ids. ence ? He bad no other objection, either from ii. valry or any other motive, to refuse acting %irk st under the Noble Lord ; but Be felt that from his S. tuation he must have a most decided iufluence decision of the question. His Honourable Friend h i t asked him whether he had seen a statement of the Members of the Cabinet on this particular point, ad the limitations cf the ; sense in which they stream hostile to the . Catholic claims f Being so called spoe, he must say, that he had seen that paper; Was the Society of Jesuits did not now exist, they mad be exonerated froert the charge of having drain up--(a laugh)—but this statement explained nothil to him but that all the Members of tLe Cabinet Ind* differed in their opinions on the subject— (41404 It he had not given this answer, it might hare I l ea supposed by the House th a t a ll lights of theology and sound reasoning were to be found in this paper, It appeared to him, however, of so different a clap "meter, — that he really did not know how to give a serious answer to the communication. TLe wawa he had given was by a nouce; in wiiich be merits:ad “ that he had looked at the at.‘tement, aid, as to as he could make it out, it appeared io him to be of o controversial nature gown' lanh.) He redly did not know what other an.wer to give. No two Members of the Cabinet sow the question in theist* light ; audit he were to have added one to this km, siccus of dissent; there would, as Isfr. &eke once s pressedit, be a most beaut.ful variety of opinions in the Cabinet. if he were then to exercise LAS rule, and ask to which shade of opinion, : h: blue, the red, or the yellow, (a laugh) t h e fair infliienr• and arahte ray of the Government in that Hi 'use ss as to begiven, he cotilu nut avoid concluding that it would be to the opioion of him to v. horn the Crowe had contidet the direction of the Goveriment i He therefore cos. cei - ved, that lie could not wail tiont.ur inn a Cabinet where he could have only a barren vote, upon a sub ject: which he conceived of greatest importance. He, however, perfectly coincided in what had been said of the spirit in which the proposal had Wee made ; and lie was ready to pronounce any paR. spit on the manner in which it was made, which VAS well suited to the long and uninterrupted Wing. ship and aft?' ctioo which he felt for that Noble hod. H 1 knew that his Noble Friend might most cnosciet tiously differ in opinion with him upon this subject. The difference, however, now, was not about instate* conceding the Catholic claims, which was a the; ho never proposed), but whether those claims ought sot to be taken into the most serious consideration of the Government, with the view of conceding all thatcoali he conceded with safety to the Constitution. An Hos nourable Gentleman had said, that they should kart it to time to thew e hither the persons selected twit new Government would or would not be able to lore an efficient Administration. l'he HiniourableGer tleman, however, could not be-surprised if a pens* called upon as he had been to be an actor in the Neste firstshould consider, whether or not he could be elln viceable to his country, by jo.ntng such Malinke* tion He must be allowed aoo to consider whether by so doing he would not injure his reputation, via' was dearer to himself than it could be to others. Wilk the race of pigmy men, amo g whom we now live, d any one was str pped of his reputation and his cheese. ter, he would be quite unable to render ally us esul • service to his country, by accepting office. He Pie no son of disposition in his Majesty's Gowning* ever to support the claims of the Celtolics. (Lank. Castlereagh expressed dissent.) It be could suppose , . I by this expression of dissent, that the shades of sldhg; ence upon this question were at all amalgamated, and that there wag any chance of Government !mingle. vourable to the Catholic claims, he would hail dna. nouncement of such a disposition With the Ottawa pleasure. Lord - CASTLERtAGH hoped that the Haus would clearly under stand that he had no wish to Oeny the undoubted right of Parliament to control thessal-. t; se of the prerogative, or to give i:s advice to the Si°" vererg . n on all questions of public importance, ed _. iane lshnet, .d, fur urgency. Wiu l o ut d en) i ng t he omnipo,ence o f P it weighed, thoughthe e cuming to such a resolution, before d r e 7 that the gruunds should be n ew moved the other orders of the day, it appeared talo a that the course h e h a d ta ken was not only coos 141,1• agreed i 0 it. A s to t h e H onoura ble Geothatnan Ina tional but usual. The Mesibers of the AdOsli• • lion had most sincerely exerted themselves to • . Iddiional strength to the' Government ; bitit Cantlernen who were applied to Considered dtaas lot juitified in lending their talents to the suppet t ! the Administration of the country, on the princiP!! • which had hightt to been sanctioned by Parliament, PI. • blame attached to them. He knew that his ituffs. tiighneis the Prince Megan had been most nnigift . , ever since the restrictions were .taken to " I " many man of public talents as could be got .e 1