Star. — London, England, 1830-03-10 00:00:00

missions, offices, or pensions, in the year 1829, distinguishing the %muss of each.—Ordered. The hon. and gallant MEMBER then moved for returns of all eases held in reversion during the last year, distinguishing the names of the parties.—Ordered. WELCH JUDICATURE. Mr. RICE TREVOR said he had to present the petition of the , gentry and freeholders of the county of Carmarthen, against any al teration of the Welch Judicature. He himself was ready to concur in any alteration which had for its object to transfer the power of appointing the Judges from the Minister of the Crown to the Lord I Chancellor, and to deprive them of seats in that house. If, however,l nothing of that kind was intended, and that the object was only to divide some counties and mince up others for the purpose of snaking assize circuits, then he should most assuredly oppose the suralure. Sit JOHN OWEN presented a similar petition from Pembroke, signed by 1.900 persons.—Laid on the table. Mr. JONES said, he had to present a petition, to the same effect cloak the borough of Carmarthen, signed by 400 persons, including the two sheriffs of the county and all the magistrates. He com plained of the haste and secrecy with which the measure relating to Welsh judicature wag carried on. Application was made on one occasion to the members of the administration to know the inten. liens of the government on the subject; and the answer was that the matter was a kind of state secret. No information wou ld be given on the subject, but it was intimated pretty clearly that, who the people of Wales liked the measure or not, they should be forced to swallow it. He thought that the bill ought to be printed and circulated, and the further proceedings postponed until after the quarter sessions and assizes, in order that those who were interested in the measure might have an opportunity of cond. _ . Bering it. Sir CHRISTOPHER COLE said a few words, which did not teach the gallery. Mr. PEEL protested against the attempt made by his hon. Mend to appeal to the sensitive feelings of the inhabitants of the principality on the erroneous grounds which he had stated. He said that the measure had been made a state mystery—that the answer given to as application made by some nameless individual was, that an at unapt was to be made to make them swallow the bill (to use his hon. friend's own words), whether they would or not. Now, if ever there was a secret ill kept, it was certainly this, for there was a commission appointed on the subject, who recommended the mea sure, and it was discussed very amply in the course of last year. He himself bad seen 16 or 18 gentlemen connected with the princi pality, who discussed it with him, and whose only objection was to the proposal made to dismember the counties of Wales, in the pro. priety of which objection he fully concurred. He begged to repeat that no secret had been made of the measure, and that no attempt would be put in practice to prevent them from seeing the bill, and giving it all the fair consideration which persons interested in so important a measure were entitled to. The petition was then read. Mr. JONES, in moving that it should be printed, again ex pressed his anxiety that the measure should be postponed to give time for full consideration. Mr. PEEL said he was willing to enter into a compromise by promising his hon. friend that the inhabitants should have every itir opportunity of considering the bill, if his hon. Mend, on the other hand, would engage that no attempt should be made to defeat it by undue delay. The petition was then laid on the table. To be printed. Mr. JONES presented a petition from the mayor, burgesses, and inhabitants of the town and county of Carmarthen, to the same effect. The hon. gentlemen said that he wished the bill to be post. poned until the latter end of April or the beginning of May, and he had no hesitation in saying that he should offer no unnecessary de lay in its future stages. Mr. JONES then presented a similar petition from the mayor, aldermen, and principal burgesses of the borough of Llanelly. Colonel POWELL presented a petition from the freeholders of the county of Cardigan, against any alteration in the Welch Judicature. Mr. O'CONNELL moved for a copy of a memorial, addressed by Mr. J. Macguire to the Duke of Northumberland, Lord Lieu. tenant of Ireland, on the subject of certain prosecutions for murder tried at the assizes of the county of Fermanagh. The hon. gentle. man mentioned that some time back the Irish government issued a proclamation prohibiting party processions, but that, shortly after the appearance of that proclamation, a judge on the Irish Bench, lu the exercise of his judicial functions, delivered a charge to the jury, In which he laid down principles directly opposed to the spirit and intention of the proclamation. He had an ulterior object in view in making this motion, and hoped there would be no objection to the production of the document. Lord F. L. GOWER said he must object to a !course which would involve the government in much inconvenience. If the par ties had any grievance to complain of, it was open to them to peel. tion the house on the subject. He must therefore resist the produc tion of the document called for by the hon. gentleman. Some ob servations had been made with regard to a learned judge, to which be felt it necessary to say a word in reply. He regretted to hear insinuations made against any individual member of the hoicks.; but with regard to the learned judge alluded to, of course it was impossible for a person in his (Lord L. Gower's) situation to judge of is merits, except by the reports which het h ; and as err. tain insinuations had been thrown out against that learned judge— (Jtilige Jebb—there was no occasion for concealing his name). he felt bound to say, that if he were on his trial for his life tomorrow, with a consciousness of his innocence, there:was not a judge on eh: Irish bench in whose hands he should more readily trust the justice of his case than in those of Judge Jebb. Mr PEEL said that the grounds on which the honourable mem ber founded his motion appeared to him exceedingly dangerous. A judge on the bench, it seemed, differed from the executive govern ment, of which he (Mr. Peel) was a member. The judges were made independent of the government for the express purpose of their controlling any disposition on the part of the executive un. duly to interfere with the liberties of the people; and he trusted the house would not assume that a judge was wrong because be dif fered from the executive government. The principle was ens which, without much more explanation, he thought the house could not admit. Mr. O'CONNELL said he did not mean, in what he had laid, to attribute any partiality to the Lord Lieutenant. Any one who did so would grossly calumniate that noble personage. But he would say, on behalf of the prisoners whose cases were involved in the circumstances to which his motion referred, that they felt that, having acted upon the view taken by the Irish Executive Govern. meat and the advisers of the Crown in that country, their lives were now placed in jeopardy by the collision of an individual judge'with the...whose opinions they bad thought themselves justified in acting upon as the safest grounds of their conduct. However, in conse quence of what had been said by the noble lord and the right hoa gentleman opposite, he would withdraw his motion for the present, and would, on a future opportunity, present a petition to the house en the subject. Mr. PEEL said that he only intended to state that he was a party to the issue of the proclamation in question. The Learned Judge had a right to dissent from the view of the Government, and to ex. • press that dissent if he felt it ; and he objected to the production of - any papers merely because a Judge did differ in that way from the Government. The motion was then withdrawn. Mr. DUNCOMBE presented a petition from the parish of Sherborne, in the West Riding of Yorkshire, complaining of distress. Mr. BiRING presented ► dmilar petiaon fiom the - inbabitas of New Alreeford. On tbs modon of Sir J. GRAHAM, the following returns wt ordered s—The names and aeons of ill persons employed in the civil departments of the kingdom, with an account of the salaries and emoluments exceeding 111101. per annum, in 1815 and 1829 res. pmively ; and a statement of the grounds upon which any such sa laries have been increased since 1815. The date of each increase, and whether it arose upon the superannuation of the person rev,. muly holding the office. The grounds upon which any office has been created since 1815, with the total amount of salaries enjoyed by all such persons in the years 1815 and 1829. A return of the items of expenditure, including the conveyance out of home, and the cost of outfit to our diplomatic and .consular establishments in the new States of America, with thelength of service, and the salaries of each since 1825. Sir JAMES GRAHAM gave notice that, on Friday next, he 1 , should move for a return of the salaries and emoluments of civil andl military officers, from the sth of January 1829, to the sth of Ja. *nary, 1830. The hon. baronet also gave notice that, on Friday, before the house resolved itself into a committee of supply, he should submit a motion respecting the recent appointment of treasurer of the navy% Mr. LITTLETON presented a petition front the proprietors of iron works and collieries in the counties of Stafford and Worcester, against the monopoly of the East India Company. The petitioners acknowledged the relief derived from recent measures affecting their branches of manufacture. 11r. HUSKISSON said that he remembered, his hon. friend coming with some of those gentlemen to the Board of Trade, when he was connected with that deprtreel, and he then told them that they would And the advantage of giving an easy admission to the iron and steel of other countries—an opin ion for which the parties were little dispeesd at the time to ve him credit, but he was * eased to gel tbat as* s altheosh in midst of peat difficuldes they admitted the wisdom MA nedubmes et inset measures. He was ambled that the dillealtia of the mantifeeturipg lamas& would be now meek greseeribod mot a .foeflity and encouragement been gives to the latadmedse of mahriele of manufacture from kelp coestries. Ks flit bound to c— oeknowledgmeme to those gentlemen for the candid manner In which they admitted the benefit of the course adopted by the government. Mr. ROBINSON said a few wor d., which were not heard in the gaile Mr. LITTLETON observed that there was no branch of the manufacturing interests which felt more severely the pressure of the existing distress than the iron trade. Their difficulties were unpre cedented within his memory. The petition was referred to the committee on the East India Charter. - 1 7 1;:lITTLETON presented a petition from the Inhabitants of Hanley and other places in the neighbourhood of the Staffordshire , pteriee, praying for the abolition of West India Slavery. Lord LEVESON GOWER brought in a bill for the better re gulation of the Office of Sheriffs of Counties in Ireland, which was read a first time.—To be printed, and read a second time on Thurs day, the 29th inst. Lod F. L. BOWER then brought in a bill to enable the corn. miseioners of Ardglass Harbour, in Ireland, to enter into contracts and to borrow money for the improvement of the harbour.--Read a first time. Ordered to be printed, and read a second time on Tuesday next. Mr. WESTERN presented a petition from the Owners and Occupiers of land in the parish of Weathenfield, in Essex, com. plaining of distress, and praying for a reduction of the duties on malt and beer. _ _ _ . . _ . . TRAI;IT moved for a oopy of the Commission of inquiry into the state of the Ecclesiastical courts in England and Wales.— Ordered. liir. COURTENAY presented a ktetition from the merchants, shipowners, and traders at the Cape of Good Hope. against the mo nopoly of the East India Company.—Refined to the committee on the East India Charter. SUPPLY. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved that the Report of the Committee of Supply be received. Mr. R. GORDON rose to move a resolution on the subject of half-pay. He wanted to establish some principle--he did not bring it forward on personal grounds ; he wanted to prevent partiality and unfair play. His resolution was, " That it is the opinion of this house, that as certain regulations are in force by which half-pay officers of the navy army, ordnance, or marines, are prevented from receiving the whole, or part of their half-pay, during the period they may enjoy the emoluments of any civil offices, it is expedient and just that the same regulations shall extend to all officers of the army, navy, ordnance, or marines, in the receipt of full pay or of profit, from naval or military allowances, or from emoluments from naval or military appointments." Some on accepting service In dull departments lost their half-pray, while others retained it. That was the case with the Secretary to the Colonies, and the Se cretary at War—one lost the half-pay, the other continued to receive. He thought when civil office was accepted, the half-pay ought to cease, and on the civil service ceasing that the half pay should be resumed; he did not want to withdraw any honours; lie only was against partiality. Why should a colonel having civil office remain on full pay, and others having only half pay, not be allowed a civil office ? A lord of the admiralty might receive half pay as an ad. miral, and full pay at a general ; ought these different arrangements to continue? The condition of many of the half pay was most de. plowable; but if the stem arrangements were continued regarding them, he should have a right to complain, if it were not extended to all classes of pay (Hear.) He concluded with moving the reso lution given as shove. Sir H. HARDINGE was of opinion that the batter way would be to allow the half-pay officer to accept of civil Ace widely& the forfeiture of half-pay. There were only three AIM that balmy of upon full pay, who were allowed to hold civil odiese, and deers were under peculiar circumstances. He thought it would not be advisable to apply the rule strictly to those who had retired on full pay, after a life spent in the service of their country. The symms at present adopted was that, in fact, which had been at all times psi. sued. It appeared to him that the argument of the hon. member amounted to this, that because they had always acted harshly is. wards the half-pay officers, they should extend now a similar Web proceeding towards the full-pay officers. Sir. F. /3URDETT said that he thought the half-pay Amin were not properly requited. And he had doubt but they might be employed in many offices without the slightest detriment to dm public. On the contrary, he thought the advantage would be ma. teal—to the country as well as to the officers themselves. Mr. FERGUSON recommended that his honourable friend would withdraw his motion, for he felt that the present system was a gross injustice to the half-pay officers, and one which ought not to be extended to the full-pay officers. Lord ALTHORP said it was painful, no doubt, to the govern. 'sent to extend principles of economy too closely, and it was elm very painful to gentlemen not connected with the government to re. commend retrenchment in individual aces—(hear, hear ;)—but it was necessary to do so.--(Hear, hear, hear.) It had been said that the half-pay officers ought to be placed on the same footing in this respect as officers on full pay, but with what consistency could they n government thus to add to the expenses of the coo si nle i y e sil e anri l :2: same time press retrenchment upon them? (Chem. He should, with this view of the case, vote for the motion, the question be pressed to a division. (Cheers.) Mr. HUSKISSON said, he entertained views very similar to those of the noble iced who had just sat down, but he thought the ' , better way would be to withdraw the motion, which was incon.l venient, coming as it did incidentally before the house upon a night fixed for discussion upon the difficulties of the country. He must gay, however, that he could see no good reason for not reducing the ful. pay officers to the situation of those on half-pay, with respect to the acceptance of civil offices. The only reason assigned by his right hon. Mend for the distinction was, that it had been the custom that one class should enjoy the privilege. and another not. (Cheers.)... There was no Fincisl o e u ; present applied to the system of retired allowances, and he ht it requisite that some principle should be adopted, and he wou.d, on a future occasion, bring the whole subject before the house. The alterations and retrenchments were forced upon the government, and it was surprising with how much facility they were made when government found itself armed with a positive resolution of the house in their support. (Cheers.) Mr. GORDON replied, and said, that after all he had heard he melsesed that he could see no just reason whatever for the distinction beams officers on full and half-pay in this respect. Why should en diest Naive his pay as such when appointed to an office with mask Webs pay attached to it ? He . should not, however, after what had farm from the house, pens has resolution to such a com mittee. upon the understa ndi ng that the right hon. gen thman2-• (Mr. Huskisson)—intended to bring the whole sub. jest of retired allowances before the house, and if he also should receive an intimation that a committee of inquiry would be agreed to when the right honourable gentleman Auld bring forward that motion. Mr. Secretary PEEL said, that it was impartible that ministers could say what steps they would be disposed to take in reference to a motion which was not only not before the knee, but for the die. cussion of which notice had not been given. At the same time, to show the intentions of Government, his right hon. friend (the Chan cellor of the Exchequer) bad, last Session, moved for leave to bring in a bill to regulate retired allowances, and it was at present under consideration to bring that bill forward again. Mr. HUSKISSON said, that he had not pledged himself to bring forward any specific motion upon the subject, though he thought ft ought to be done, and most likely it would be done by the Chan. 1 'r of the Exchequer. Mr. PEEL said, that his right hon. friend had actually acted on the principle of the bill of last session, though that bill had not , and had deducted for the pay of officers for the purpose of SLoI for them a retired allowance. HOWICK hoped that his hon. friend would not withdraw his resolution, without receiving something like a distinct pledge ' that a committee of inquiry should be mr.. to. lie thought that full half pay officers ought to be pia •-• upon an equality, but in what way that equality should be effected should be left for the de aden of a committee of inquiry. He could not help feeling stir. prise that the hon. member for Westminster should in this instance beopposed ei lliEßLi z t ch tL e u n g t ht government would lend themselves to ally inquiry, but that house always opposed the wishes of govern. mast, when the government itself were desirous of retrenchment. This he felt necessary to say in mere justice to the government. The house was in fault, and not the government. Mr. PEEL hoped the house would not force him to pledge him. self SO II notice of the terms, of which be was wholly ignorant. The Chancellor of the Exchequer was to bring forward his estimate of the expenditure on Monday next. That expenditure was eleven millions, half of which, or more than half—six millions—wm for retired allowances, and was it likely that such a subject would net be dwelt upon in that statement ? (Chan.) Lord Homes and Sir H. Kennesaw explained. Mr. HUME thought the better way would be to postpone the consideration of the ronendment until after the intenders& of the Chancellor of the Exchequer should be before the house. Mr. GORDON said he understood the hon. member for Liver. pool to say, that if no one else would bring forward the subject, be would (cheers.) Mr. HUSKI/3SON said that he had said so. Mr. GORDON said, that he would in that ease withdraw his re solution, trusting that the right honourable gentleman would not wait for any gentleman on his (Mr. Gordon's) side of the house to bring it forward, as It would be much more ably dealt with on his own (hear hare) The res olution was then withdrawn. The report of the Committee of Supply was then b roug ht u p, end several resolutioU were agreed to. Mr. HUME said he thought it very desirable that no vacancy should be filled up until after the result of the inquiry they were about to make was before the house. He undertood the Chief of ' the Tontine was dead, and he trusted the office would not be filled up until after the Inquiry. Mr. HERRIES said the treasury had, to the utmost of their power, carried into effect the recommendation of the Finance Com mittee. _ _ _ Upon a vote of 60,0001. for a volounteer force, Mr. HUME objected, and hoped that the house would not con sent to it, for it was one which admitted, more than any other, of reduction. He should propose, therefore, in order to give time to his majesty's ministers, that the vote should be taken for six months only. The SPEAKER said, that this would make the vote 120,0001. Mr. HUME then moved as an amendment that the sum of 30,000/. should be taken for six months. Mr. PORTMAN said it might b- reduced altogether, and he trusted that those who were anxious for reduction would now sup. port the hon. member for Aberdeen, and not suffer every motion for retrenchment to be thus frittered away as often as it came before therm—(Cheers ) A member, whose name we could not learn, said, that although he always was in the habit of supporting government, yet, on the present occasion, he should divide with the honourable member for Aberdeen. The gallety was then cleared fora division, when there ap. peered— For the Amendment Against it Blajoeity EXPEDISES OF SHERIFFS. Upon our return to the gallery we found— Mr. F. PALMER upon his but so great was *the noise of the people entering the gallery that we could not heaia single sen tence that fell from him for some time. In reference to expenses of sheriffs he said that they had not only to meet judges in a hand some equipage and four, and conduct them into town, in a chariot and four, but they had also to make a present to the table pro vided for the judges, of four dozen of old port,Lin contravention to the acts of the 13th and 14th of Charles the Second, which declared that no table should be kept by sheriffs in assize towns, nor should they make any present to the judges. The hon. member, after stating a great number of other expenses to which sheriff's were liable, concluded by moving the appointment of a select committee to take into consideration the expenses attending the office of high Sheriff, with a view to their reduction. Mr. HUDSON GURNEY opposed the motion, which was agreed to, and the committee were appointed. STATE OP THE POOL 7s to Bs. Mr. WILMOT HORTON said it was his intention to move for a committee of the whole house to inquire into the state of the labouring poor, and he preferred a committee of that description to a select committee, because the poor were likely to have more con. fidence in any resolutions that might be adopted, when they knew that the question was discussed publicly, and the opinions of dif ferent members were allowed to go forth to the public. In bringing forward the motion it was not his intention to institute an inquiry into the distress of the country generally, but merely to confine it to the state of that class who depended on their labour for subsistence, and to the means of providing something like a remuneration for that labour. The great cause of the distress to which this class were reduced was &superabundant population, and, until some remedy for this could be provided, he was afraid that little progress could be made in bettering their condition. Besides that class there was another, who, he might say, were equally interested,—the landed proprietors. Much had been said late about the distresses of the farmers, and the proprietors of lan d; but one important Cause of the distress under which they laboured had been but lightly touched on,—he meant the poor rates. This was, in fact, ales, and one of a guest amount, inasmuch u it amounted now to between seven and eight millions annually, and fell chiefly on the landed interest. Several attempts had been made to provide a remedy for this evil. In 1798, Mr. Whitbread had introduced a bill to regulate the wages of persons engaged in husbandry, NM one of the grounds for such a measure was the great distress to which that class were reduced by the inadequate remunera- Am which they received for their labour, and it was necessary to hear la mind, that this bill was introduced hem the beak nitrict der took place, and before any change had been effused in the mo. Wry system. It appeared, from Mr. Whitheisi's statement, that the sufferings of this class were at that period very great. In many ports of the country, he said, the ring dames were struggling with poverty and misery, and that, in fact, their distress bad arrived to such &pitch, that, if any increase were to take place, it was possible they could submit to it for any leagisof time. At that time a Mild, instead of being regarded as a big, was looked upon as a curse. Mr. Whitbread therefore prapeoul a minimum of wages instead of a maximum, which bed been the principle acted on in the bill introduced in the nip of Queen klizabetb. Mr. Pitt, In answer to the statmasat of Mr. Whitbread, ad mitted the evil, and said the state dab Muriag poor was greatly to be wetted, but he objected to a ashamns of wages, because it would tad to increase the evil. le muluded by sayieg, that whatever measure might be substituted fa a minimum, he trusted that In no ease waid maid be canted, mans on something like sound al* bet pdidpise, and thet, shore ell, they should endea. vour to introduce ere sasmare whit* would stoke the peasant look on the number elide claims Tuber as an honour than as a mis fortune. Mr. Fox expand idesself also udwose to the repast tion and Mr. Whitbr ea d. in complimenting Mr. Pitt on his speech, concurred In the splits that it wadi be desirable to hold out a premium for the mesematesum dlmp families. Such was the state of the labewfmg deems la MK and since that pe. rind labour had undergone fiaetwadeno similar to those which all productions are liable to in at over-trading or re dundancy of commodities. The a peln ks of Mr. Pitt, as regarded the wages of the labouring classes, wee tke emu with that which, probably, he would have pursued in any speaks of traffic or tom. meree. Had there been a glut of sugar, foe instance, he would not have recommended a minimum of premium be the introduction of sugar. Shortly a ft er this Mr. Dialtbus published his work on po pulation, and Mr. Whitbread introduced another bill, which he must say, contained a great deal of heterodoxy. (Hear, hear.)— The bill was for the education and relief of the poet, and, after pass ing the Commons, it was thrown out in the Lords. Mr. Ricardo, is apsakiog of the bill, said the two great difficulties were the re of population, and the means of providing for the main taining of the poor. (Hear.) The latter was the great deaf diastase, and must remain so while sufficient funds did not exist to peovide for the poor. The existing evil must be imputed In a great measure, to redundancy. of population, and not to taxation alone ; and, in confirmation of this, be would refer them to a valuable book just published on the subject by Mr. Batten. What was of seine importance, also, was the fact that this was not confined to England On comparing the state of Switzerland and England, it would be found that the same cause existed in both —namely, a redundancy of population. This indicated that there were some general causes common to both, quite distinct from national debt or a change of currency. This, in fact, had be come so evident in Switzerland, that a law had been passed in that country prohibiting all persons from marrying who had re. ceived assistance, and who had not refunded the amount to the com munity, a measure of severity, certainly, to which the Legislature of this country would hardly dare to resort. In 1821, another bill had been brought in by an honourable friend of hie, in which he suggested a masimun of wages; and Mr. Nolan afterwards in troduced another, which bore a strong resemblance to the bill which it was his intention to propose ; but they had the fate of most other bills, and were finally thrown out. The measures which he had in contemplation would apply to four different classes of poor.— The first included the poor who obtained an independent exis tence by their labour, and whom he thus designated in contra dieting*. to the rich, who had not to labour for their sub sistent*. The second included the helpless poor, who were de prived by youth or age, from providing for themselves, and who, in this enemy, were supported by compulsion, or as in Frans* mad sone mks countries, by voluntary contributioe. The third class fo whisk be ailed the attention of the house were able-bodied men, who were is to work, but could not get employment, or who must perish er have recourse to illegal acts unless they were assisted. This dem was so numerous that their present state required the ut most allentien of the legislature. The last class included all those who pleherei begging to honest industry, and who had no other resomene for subsistence. Respecting these different classes much hillemedes might be obtained by referring to the report of the mdse Committee. If he were asked who were wpm, l be wield wawa all those who received relief in say way, whether from the parish or from corporate fends. The mere het it receiving wages was no criterion at all : and here he or see say that it would be quite impossible to find who wove pan. pets and who were not, till they put an end to s system which, if continual, would condemn the labouring class to c= y. The system he alluded to was that of paying i r: part of his wages to out of the poor rates.—(hear.) Such a rwas most prejudicial the labouring classes, and ]Mssthere was most desirable that some means should be adopted for the country from the expenses it was put to by pro viii life able-bodied men who were able to work but could not I id employment. la order to accomplish this, it would be nun. way for parishes to make out sepsr accounts, and to distinguish. the anaa paid to the second and third claws—the helpless pose, ead able-bodied min who could not obtain employ. ', meet This, be thought, could be easily dupe, and he should, therefore, recommend, as a necessary step, to ascertain first the amount paid to these two clausal. The next suggestion he wield offer was, that a power should be panted to parishes to employ the able-bodied poor in a concentrated rather than a separate manner.— He knew that, in several places, the labour executed by paupers produced no retnrn ; but he considered that, by concentration of several parishes, a profitable return might be setae. He also consi dered that, if his Mess were carried hue operation, other measures should be used to (*MO the redundancy of the population; and that might be by not permluing the eriction of cottages more than were sufficient to Whore * employed population. He did not go the length of saying that $ tax should be imposed on the building of new cottages, but he maintained that some check was necessary to restrain that redundancy which was the great evil of the country. He was also of opinion that, where there was a per manent demand for the natural labour of society, the grant of small pieces of ground to the labourers would be attended with the most beneficial effects. He did not propose that ground should be given to paupers, but that as natural labour was employed so it should be allotted. (Hear, hear.) He thought that the principles which he had laid down were illustrated in the parish of Redbornstoke, in the county of Bedford. The following is an abstract of the question, he had put, and the answers he had obtained, from authorised per. sons in the hundred : 1. What is the number of acres within the hundred at large ?-- 38,037. 2. What is the amount of its population ?-13,512. 3. What is the number of rate payers?-982. 4. What is the number of able bodied labourers, accounting two boys for one man ?-2,177. 5. What propottion of these able bodied labourers receive asstit. once from the parochial funds ?-646. G. What is the number of persons comprising their families, and with them dependent, either wholly or partially, on 'the parochial funds for support ?-3,780. 7. What is the raw of relief granted to able-bodied pauper labourers ? From 3s 6d to 6s 6d. to 6. 6d. 8.64 to 10s. e men ?—From 3s &I to 4s 6d. and wife without children ? 95 to 14s. with one child ?—From 5e Gd with two children 7—From with three children ?—From with four children ?—From Its to 144. with five children ?—From 8. What system is adapted with respect to the employment of able-bodied labourers ?—ln almost every instance in digging mate rials for and repairing the parish roads. 9. What sum has been expended in the maintenance of the poor during the last three years ?-60,7611. 10. What proportion of that expenditure has been incurred for the support of ab le-bod ied labourers ?-13,6741. 11. What proportion of that expenditure has been incurred for the support of their families ?—(N.B. This return includes the allowances made to the paupers of the whole parish.)-9,4291. 12. Is there a poor-house in the parish ?—ln 12 out of 14 pa rishes. 13. What proportion of thetlebouras now belonging to the wish would be sufficient to perform all the labour necessary to be habitually performed, including repair of roads, &4?-1,4913. 14. Inat number can be spared?-681. Annual increase of male population, moat of whom are labourers, 111. Number of acres to each able-bodied labourer 181. Average annual amount of poor's-rates for ten years, up to Lady. day, 1821, 1 5 ,7 1 4 1 . Annual amount of poor's rates per acre, 75.10 d. Ile did not know what the experience of other members might be on the subject, but it was evident that hen, out of two thousand men, six hundred were superfluous ; and the information fur. nished him from other places was to the same effect. It was true that this redundant labour would be absorbed by nadonal want, and, when the circumstances that at present prejudiced the capi talist passed over, the fund of superfluous labour that at present op. pressed the country would go into general circulation. Ile received yesterday a letter from a clergyman—one among the many letters, anonymous and with names, which the house would imagine -were addressed to him on these subjects--and that letter stated " that the desire to emigrate had increased with the distress, and that they were sinking with accelerated velocity into the, jaws of pauperism; and that something should be done to relieve the multitude of labourers breeding (or breathing) and starving in a state of hopelessness and fatuity." Nothing could be worm than a hopeless state of pauperism, and the example of Ireland was the best commentary on a system in which there was no check to the increase of paupers. Mr. Barton, the clergyman to whom he alluded, was of opinion that some restraint must be placed on popu. laden; and Mr. Hodges, a gentleman of intelligence in Kent, was of the same mind. The latter wrote" that as the labourers became numerous they became reckless of consequences, that they mar. Heel, and their poverty led them into every degradation." It was a true doctrine that the poorest men were the most disposed to marry. With regard to the poor laws he was one of those who thought that poor laws, duly regulated, were the best indications of a high state of civilization ; but if the country was to have a free circulation of commerce and of free labour it was necessary that an . equal uniformity should prevail with reg ard to these laws. For instance, if there were twenty counties with poor laws and twenty counties without them great misery would accrue, and he therefore saw no reason why Ireland should not be placed on the same foot. ing as every other part of the United Kingdom. (Hear, hear.) — Until a system of poor laws was extended to Ireland it was evi dent she would throw off as much of her superfluous population as she could into this matey. (Hear, hear.) He was not one of those who thought that population was encouraged by the poor laws. (Hear.) In the south of England they were sup. posed to have had that effect; but there, in consequence of a relaxation which took place, a permanent system was founded, which led to many 111 results. The effect had become a cause, and then it entailed most serious evils. In his opinion, the Legislature ought to make a decided different* between the poor classes whip lived by their own labour, and by the poor laws. There mast be a substantive distinction made between between them. lie did not ask the house to coerce the poor, but they must be re strained from multiplying beyond the demand of society for their labour. He knew no other way to effect that object than b making a substantive distinction 'between these two claues by which alone the poor would be extricated from the evils attendant on an over-population. He did not go the length of saying that the la. hoovers of Ireland were not to come over to England to work, or that their labour should not be free : but he believed that it was evident that there was a superabundant population in that country, and it was admitted that that great increase of population was owing to the potato—(Great laughing.) A potato-fed poca earns over here to compete with a corn-fed people , and it was dear that their labour must be cheaper. The evils of that system of food were evident; and it should not be forgotten that when the potato crop failed England had to support the greater peed= of the poor of Ireland ;—in fact, English benevolence was giving a bonus to the incense of Irish paupers. If this were true he should wish to me the attempt made to separate the pauper p opulation of Ireland from the national labourers by a na tional project. He was told by some Irish gentlemen that the ides of an over population existent in that country was absurd ; but he had In the face of that the returns, by which it was shown that in 1825 there was a million of people patrolling the count!) , without employment. How was it to be known that a redundancy of popu lation existed, unless some plan was laid down ? A national men dicity association ought to be established—(hear.) In the opinion of some people, colonisation at home, as it was adopted by the Dutch, was the cheapest and the best that could be tried but in his opinion a national colonisation abroad in the colt , . ales was cheaper and more efficient. Something ought to be done to put an end to a system which multiplied misery on every title ; but be was of opinion, that until the poor were convinced of the truth of these doctrines; all legislation would be ineffectual. It was necessary to establish in the minds of the people that their mi. eery depended on redundancy, and, until that evil was corrected by removal, these was no hope that the representation could do Food. He called on the intelligent part of the labouring community.... on the artisan, and the: labourer who had education—to inquire into these principles, and satisfy themselves of their truth. In Manchester, in the year 1826, after the panic of 1815, them were 2,000 persona in a state of great distress, and the. Inhabitants agreed to give wort to all parties who were resident for twelve months. By that means the redundant labour was accurately roes. sured, but in progress of time all these men were taken into etber employment, and the whole labour was profitably absorbed at no distant period. There was a peculiar distinction between the effects of agriculture and manufactures on the increase of labourers in country. In his opinion, the improvements in agriculture de creased, whilst the improvements of machinery increased the num ber of labourers. The increased machinery of Lancashire would have improved the condition at the people, if it was not counterba lanced by the importation of Irish I:bowers. Here h e could not avoid alluding to the subject of currency. Many ra• demen were of opinion that a change of currency or a de preciation of the standard would operate in a way to remove a portion of the national distress; but he knew no instance in the course of history where a depreciation of money did not fail to pre judice the labourinit classes. (Hear. hear.) That watidez atign ought to be well weighed by every reasonable man. Ile thought that the people of the country should know, that if money was to be depreciated pa cent. in the standard, or by means of paper, there would be a practical depredation to the labourer of every shilling from twelvepsnce to ethernet halfpenny. It was true that a slow remedy would be afforded by dine, and that the wages of labourers would themes until they reached fifteen pence for the former shilling; but still be thought the immediate effect of an alteration In the currency would be that which be bad described —(bear.) When he heard of the reduction of the value of the currency offered se a relief far the labouring dares, he was de ' Brous that the truth should be made known, and that the people should look to other sources for relief. It wield be a system which would only benefit debuts at the expense et th e ir mediums (Hear, hear.) By it one grain of mks wee net coetributed is the circulation, and he entered his protest 'MOM O. A tril l circulation consisted in the treaehe of valve boa ow ata ° another—(bear, bear.) He did not peetead se ay that the