Star. — London, England, 1806-06-03 00:00:00

I I I dangers which would eafue from difbanding the army. In this refpett it ton much relernhled the former praCtice of tacking chutes to Money Bus, a pratlice which had been reprobated by Mr. Hatfell, is his " Precedents," as irrregular and uncontlitu tional. Having flitted his obje&ions to the elaufe as un coollitutional, he fbould next make time obfere minor. on the leading features of the meafure which was now introduced. The Right Hon. Secretary had admitted the prefent nrength of the army, and had Rated his objet to be, to give greater facility and inducemenia to enlinment. This, on all fides. was allowed to be an objet of great importance. But he fiwuld think it walling the time of the Committee to reply to the Obfervations that had been made by a Right Hon. Secretary (Mr. Fox) relative to the difpofal of our force in the late campaign. He was ready to take upon himfelf all the refpcnfibility cf the late Minifiry • regard to fuch difpofal ; but it was not for want of a difpefable force that greater exertions were not then made. Forty thoufand men were then ready to have been fent to any (warier where their feu vices might have beer. ernyloycd. had it been thought expedient fo to do. But it bit on ail hands acknowledged that an addition to our army was wanted, the only queltion came to he, whether the prefent plan would have that ern& ? Had he hindelf propofed the plan, he believed, that in allufion to the country of which he had the honour to be a native s it would have been called a blunder, inalmucb as it in etre& propofed to inereafe the army by walling it away. The mode of increafing one military force teemed wild and romantic in the extreme. It began by repealing a meafure that had already been produc. tire, and promifed to be more fo, and would end with difbanding our veteran battalions, and reducing the Militia ahnoll to nothing. It was always Undern(tnd to be of importance that our military force fhould be of Inch a nature as might be difbanded on the return of peace, and eafily re.affembled in time of war. Of this nature was the Militia, and alto the Additional Force which his late Right Honourable Friend had railed. But the prefent plan would bring our peace and war enablifliment in a kind of equality, a mea. lure which it was furprifing to fee fupported by a Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Fox) who on the late peace had advifed fo great a redutlion of our kind :rig force. Neither would it tend to improve the qua lity of nor army, as it would prevent the greater j art of our force from enjoying the benefits of fo reign fervice. As far as the experiment of limited fervice had been tried in the American war, it had not been found to fucceed. and the army was never at any time more deficient. In the lan war, recruit ing for life would be found to have been more fuecefs ful than that fora period of years. In the cow re of the leg war, we had recruited men from the militia, for general fervice in Europe, for five years only, and in the prefent war, we had recruited from the Militia for general fervice without any limitation, and the refuits were as follow :—ln the year 1799, when our militia confined of eighty thoufand men. forty.fix thoufand of them were allowed to enliß into the re gular army on the terms lie had mentioned, and twenty.fix thoufand did aCtually enlift ; whereas,. in 3805, when our militia was fcycnty thoufand, out of the fourteen thoufand who were permitted to enlift for general fervice. without any limitation, eleven thoufand aflually did enlif. So that it appeared a greater proportion of them had enlitted in rBos, for general fervice without any limitation, than there did in 1799, although the tam was but for five years, and the apace limited to Europe. In 1799, Lord Corn. Irani* alto tried the following experiment with rtfoed to the frith militia. He gave a bounty of ten guineas to thofe men who would whit for the limited let vire, and twelve to thole that would culla • generally, without any limitation ; and it appeoed, that out of nine thoufand that volunteered from the Irifb militia, there were only three hundred who chore the limited (voice, with ten guineas bounty, fo that it appeared that the additional two guineas counterbalanced all thole °Nations that the Right Hon. Secretary fup-. poled they entertained spina unlimited fervice.— The principal objeflion, however, which he Celts was that this propofed plan entirely altered the relation in which the King flood to the army. It would take away that which fhould, to a foldier, be the first idea of his military exigence, that all rewards and boun ties proceeded rather from the grace of his Prince, than from any inherent rights in - himfelf. The Right Hon. Gentleman, however, had propofeel 'his' pen.' , fi ins not as a reward for Cervices, but as a bounty to induce men to enlill. For his part, he did tint think that there confideratioas cf dillant advantage would bare much weigh: with ignorant and ill informed men; and he fhould rather enable the Crown to give rewards for fervices, than hold out thole peril - lons as bounties to induce men to enter into the army. It was; mpfl ferious objetlion to the meafure, that the Crown could hardly be ftippofed to have a ri ght to difband foldiers who had a fort of veiled right in the ultimate saran sages held nut to them. He fhould then examine the average walle of the army. in confequence of the adoption of foch a fyilem, as alto the great expence it mull be attended with. He . onfidered the wane generally at about one twelfth of the whole army each year. He had happened to fee the retools of the (even battalion. of Guard,. which contained fries men ; there were 70, or one eleventh, in the e:glith year of their lervice ; 399, or one twenty.fecomi. in the fi: tenth ; and 78, which was not in proportion ui one to an hundred, in the twenty-11ra year. He thooght that he might pretty fairly climate the walk of other regiments from the eLlimate lit haft slated of the Guards. It would therefore appear that one eleventh, or twenty-two thoufand :nor, would be en titled to Omit , difcharge annually, on arriving at the completion of the &II period of liven yciirs. and in addition to thi, there would be ten thoufand annually entitled for completing 'heir fecond period of fervice, or fourteen years. This arrest di:Mat:tom would be very difficult to fopply. A3efides the ache, the ex• pence would be enormous. His learned Friend (Mr. Percival) had Stated the additionil expense of the N. Bier too low when he reckvned the value of his- pee. lion at only ten years purchale. Although that rn;ght be the felling price of an annuity, yet all the tables of calculation, and the infurance brokers would agree. that the chances of life for a man forty years old. is that he will live twenty years. The anoual expences that this &flew would occafion he calm laird as follows : 380,0001. for the bounties to the I recruits who were to replace thole that went out; I 164,0001. foe the additional pay to the men iu the 1 I facond patiod ; 793,0001. annually for the Nations ; of thole who bed ferved their fourteen years ; and j 684,0501. fur thofe who had leaved to envy-one years. I This would make a total inmate of above two mll- / lions annually for the army ; and if the fame princi ple were extended to the navy, of another million.— / So that at a time that we wete hearing an income tax of ten millions,tather than burthen our poflerity with I the half million that would be the intereft of it, we / wete throwing upon them a burthen fix times as great 1 by imputing an aunual expence of two or three mil. j lions upon them. He was alto much afraid that the ; veteran fiddlers would feel great difeontent at young j recruits meeting terms In much more advantageous, than thole; under which they were entitled. Mr. GRATTAN commented upon the admiffion I of the Noble Lord who had jun f at d own , th at tom e I plan (or recruiting the army was neeeffary, and yet j that be had no plan to prorate, al t hou g h he con demned, in terms fo unqualified, the plan brought forward by the Right Honourable Secretary of State. Something calculated to keep lip aqd recruit our mi litary force was on all hands allowed to he defitable, and the only quaint' was as to that which was molt advilableao promote the object which all profeffed a with to promote. Several recommended a reliance on theurdinary recruiting alone, which, it was now evi dent. could not be condtufted ititliout high bounties ; but the opinion of the majority, with whom he eer. tainly concurred, was, that limited fervice Mould be teforted to. Much encouragement to ad upon this opinintiwas to be derived from experience. Notwith. (landing the afrertion of the Noble Lord, that all ex perience was againft the experiment of the Right Ho nourable Secretary, he aliened the contrary. For in the American war, Seventy eight thouland men bad been tailed upon terms of limited fervice, and fuch a number Purely retied to thew, that Ogle terms - seem not likely to be ineffeCtive. Theft terms had, • indeed, always proved productive. They were fo in ' the IA French war. But how did they fucceed in the operation of thofe *matures. in fupport of which the Noble Lord himfelf was fo forward ? What were the Army of Referve and the Additional Force Aar, but meafures of limited fervice ? The manner io which the Noble Lord had argued on thii ticcafion, in oppofition to a principle which he had fo often . fupported before, was certainly fomewhat liable to the charge of inconfiflency. The Noble Lord had gone into a long calculation, to Stew that immenfe expence would refult from the adoption of the pro poled plan, which expence was to confill of boodles to the vial, and yet. at the conclufion of the Noble Lord's fpeech he *flirted that this expence would have no elle& whatever upon the reuniting of that at my. —An inmate Of pay was to be the confeluence of ' (even years fervice, a fill greater increate ne fourteen year's and further advantages were to be the reward of remaining twenty-one years in the Service. Still, according to the Noble'Lord, this imprOvemerit of the foldier's condition, was to form no additional al lurement to thole difpofed to engage in' the Military life. If the Noble Lord's llatement were jun, that in general men were rather inclined to prefer unlimited td limited fOrvice—that the one was productive to a , great degree, and the other to a very little; there was ' an egregious error in the calculation of thofe Minikes who drew up the Army of Referve and Additional Furce ACts. For infead of granting a bounty to fuch men as volunteered froth limited to stilimited Service, ; IGovernment thould hive had a drawback from them. But, to be ferious, it was impcflible that the limitation I of fervice Should have no influence in °braiding re. . cruits, or that men Should not be more willing to engage for feven years than for a o indefinite 'period. ; Among other calculations which teemed to tea upon very quettionable data, the N-ible Lord had citimated the life of a man at the age of 4o 1' !I:Zit as 2o years. ' He was ready to admit that the N.chle Lnrd mull , have had much difficulty to enct•cinfer in tuck calcu laileins X but yet itinUft be felt by every man, 'that when the Noble Lord was calculating u,sm grounds I very little better than look conjecture, with a view to deprecate a fyftem for which he Offered no fubllitpte whatever, he ought at leaf to have kept within the bounds of nuaeration. lithe bloble Lord had .natie any propofitioa in lieu of that which he condemned, he would have been much more entitled to attention. But the Noble Lord offered noticing. Qrdinaty re cruiting, the Nohle Lord had, for years, repeatedly maintained, was inadequate to fupply the wants of the army, and thereforehe could not recommend it in the prefent infante; nor did he fay that the bat. lot ought to be revived, or a re'quifition attempted. Even the Additional Force At the Noble Lord Would not enforce, for to enforce it would be to produce no men but money, as the Noble Lord knew.. Thiquet tion was, ai to the choice betwee* requifitiotfind in ducement.. What would the Noble Lord defire ? He would not Purely fupportrequifition, nor would he at tempt to fupport unlimited bounties ; yet if thole ! bounties were not tolerated, recourfe mutt be had to other inducements ; Pailiament mutt retort to theone nk to the other ; either to unlimited bounties, which I nperatedasepremium for defertinn, nr limited ini vice, which held out allurements to the recruit, by colder. ring a brie& upon the fiddier. In one part of the Noble Lord'► fpeech it was re• mat kable, that he talked much of the length of a man's life, which, according to his cflinuate generally reached to Sixty years. Hare, however, n was the Noble Lord's object to enlatge the amount of the ex pence to be incurred by the Right Hon. Secretary's projed. But yet wherrhe came to that part where it was deferable to him to depreciate the operation 'of this projee, the Noble Lotd - maintained, that Seven years, being equal to the general eflimate of a man's life, the people would be as little influenced by the mention of that period as' if it were Frivoled to them to enlift for life. upon fuch an inmate of' a males life, and' he obtervetiors deduced from it, it Was un tseceffery to argot: Comm* (este mutt foggell to any man a &Tacna aafgrer to it. He wouldippeal to the plaineft undeiltanding whether, if a tenant who held a leafe for (even years, were to apply to his landlord to exchange it fora !este of his life, die land. I lord would Helen to 'the propoliticn ? or whether, if a tenaht field a leafs for life, he would accede to the' propotal of his landlord to exchange it for one of frees years ? To . Rate fuels a cak was enongh in expofe the futility of the reenark alluded tn, But to return to the fubjet of limited fervice, the principle was not only feoftioned by 'he meetings lci /ghiclt he had already rekri-d, but paiticnlarly recognifed 1 by that Prolific)* which granted a bounty to inch 1 men as volunteered from the limited IQ 011111111ted 41 - I view There was,however, much more in the Right' Hon. Secretary's plan than mere limited fervice to proeiire foldiers ' and to pleafe the public. Bit the Nobly Lord's nbjeetion teemed principally to apply 1 to limited f ft vice. I'he Noble Lord himfelf, however, bore tettimony to the effeets which mutt arife from fuch a meafure, when he Rated that its adoption would tend to nothing lefs than to create a mutiny among the veterans in the army, and alto to excite difcontents in the navy. And why ? truly becaufe it propofed to confer what the Noble Lord eonfidered an extra ordinary benefit on the army. But, upon this point, it was to be recollected, that although in the Ameri. can war feventy.eight thoufand men were railed for limited fervice, and in the tall French war forty thoufand, Rill no fyrnptom of difcontent appeared among the veterans or the navy. But the idea of Inch difcontent exiling was quite prepofierous. To fup. pofc that any difcontent could stile in the navy in confequence of any military arrangement benefiting tI e foldiery, would be to indulge a fuppofition by no means honourable to or mud ent wills the charac ter of thole who belong to our navy. As to the ve terans, the Noble Lord's argument fto , KI thus :—The army were fatisfied without any addition to their pay nr pennons, and yet when an addition was to be made to both, they were, the Noble Lord Rated, to be 4 come extremely dircontented. So much with regard to the Noble Lord's allufion to the difeontents likely to arife from the plan and the new operation of the Inducements which it held out. Now, as to the con nation which the project under dirculnon had with the cede of liberty, the Noble Lord teemed to argue as if to give the foldier an intereft in civil liberty, to Itlmilh him with additional resfons for attachment to the conftitutiop of his country, was to damp his zeal. What, that when the pay of a foldier was inereafeds— when his period of fervice was limited—when he had the prorpeet of returning to the enjoyment of his country's rights, that be would be lets eager in her caufe I If that were really the cafe-J.-that when all the motives were afforded which could terve to ani mate a foldiet's mind, that an Englifh foldier would be infelifible, that Isf would be damped, the thing was incredible ; but if it were fo, then England was to be defended by fatellites, and not by'lloFdiers, and the conllitption wai to rely for its fectleity on an army infenfible to its *elite, and unworthy of living under ice aafpices. If the Englilk were really filch a force, then the old'exciterisent to patriotic valour, the jr• arh q fp*, hid . Feared to have weight.— If fuch degeneracy bad taken place, en army of Pruffians or Manselukes, would sewer as well for the defeheeof this cotintty ; fur, according to this, our army was become mere machines, and ceated to be Englidimen ; if (udh 'were the are, how mach had • all the 'proviliOns fhiled which here taken to attach the Military to the Contlitution of the Country; in fad; to intercede at much as was prafticable the mili tary with the eieil character. With that view military officits were permitted to tit in Parliament, norwith• Randitigtheir depentlince on the Crown . This per miffion was always allowed from the evident policy ' of cultitating as istercourfe het ween the Military and the Codflitutian of the 'country.. The Officer from filch iatercourre was, of cotirfe, more likely to excite in the minds of the Tokliery, a jaft revgunce lot. free dom, and %Oscura foldier I<i furni%i4 with a com fortable livelihohd, that es u frnatu tally teed to enhance his climate of himfelf and Isis country. Indeed none was ever to be faunal in the military eharafter by whom liberty hatl'iiimi always fo highly prized as by the old Leglifh Radler. • •• One of the objects of the Right Honourable Secre tary's pill was lis" give the folcliet a competent tub fitience lend of this he particularly approved. Every tentimeat Of humanity, Oilier, and policy called for the acknment of an adequate provifion to the Ibldi try, slier they had become unable to terve.' This too holding out to therli the prcfpeift 61 having a per manent uneven in the nate, formed an additional (ft mulus to their zeal while in the fervice. To create this intera had always been the policy of wife States. The Romans would ' allow nope into the army but thole who were poffeffed of property, I becaufe with• our it they did not fuppofe that men were likely' to feel much interell in the State. In • confequence of this, the population was divided into fix chiles, the loweßof whoM, becaufe dellitute, were deeMed on. worthy •to be Hulled with arms. That wife people were, therefore, particular about the'confiruenim and charaerr of their army, and fr they continued'until towards the period of their decline. They then changed their In tent. They entrulled their defence to pre:oi ian bands, and their •liberty was foon the victim. Their bands became bad foldiers as well as bad fubleas, and they loon waited' on their Emperor to requen his order to alTailinate the Senkt 1 . This in. ftitutron having exttnguithed the liberty of the Ro mans, that people, becaufe they loon felt they had no thing.to fight lot', fpeedily 101 l their greatnefi,' their independence, and charafter. The conks:veneer the Romans experienced from committingtheir country to the protection of the fatellites were two fold —firft, their ennaitution was loft ; lecondly, their army degene tated; and became terribli only to their friends, while they became infignificant in the eflimation of their ene mies. Another reafon for keeping up and improVing theEharader dour army,arofe out of a conficieration of our prefent cirt•unillances with rega'rd to France. The quiver if the French, laid the hon. Gentleman, who, are pt epai ed toad againn you, mull not be oppofed by the refute of the Englifh. I do no; of courfe mean to call the generality of your army therefore Ofyoureotin try ; hut certainly you may have a better fort, arid un las you cambarthe flower of the enemy with thefiuwer of your own people, yohr cafe is petitions. But if you will bring forward the force, which it is in your power to condi, inlpired with the c t ifpotition which Englifh men never f a il t o f ee l w h en c " nten di ng for their coim try—fited with that fpirit which is the natural refult of their confitution—with the public mind, as it were, marching along their lines, there can be nu doubt as to the illue of the contell. What any army are com. intent to, the Briar people are enmpeteht to do, when properly marfhalled, and the Right Hon. Secretary's • plan is calcula?eJ to produce that effeft. The people are to be trained, and thus the cafualties in the army in the event of invafion may be filled up. By flintier means the Fabian General was enabled to maintain hunt - elf upon the Sabine hill, until he found it conve nient to Conie'down upon the enemy. If the Romans' were not a military people, Fabius could not have fo vied and laved Rome, and, if you are not placed on the fame footing, neither your independence nor your liberty are fate ; you mull indeed become either a Isli• Mary CoVernMet% or a Military people ; Toe lac e ' volunteers , almoa at the mercy of the Cro w n , if it I fuck an armed rbos leaves ar r e eular s g army your liberties, oor th ori e e tii n a u a n o tr d y in a g t y t t h mi ts King chofe to try the experiment. I know we have every fecurity Agana any loch attempt in the cha. on the throne, but I exhort you to take every means of interweaving the confidercwriinianfirdteoolifng t h e who ho m p r e f ent theay bfamily Ki n g K, ng in a t t h th e & e h:L e ese . ; Iv,: would interefl of the army with your civil sights. such condua is necefory to maintain the charioteer of.four country.army,g one and to uAr thenational attoi o f yn a e o f u e l t rf y sc ofe e nt n ya d i for the fpii it which refults from the on; is that alone which can preferve the other. If yonr Sonflitntion were no more, the conflias to be expelled bet Need die crown and the people would fpeedily bring you to tight could tutthe ic lo na : dite e l l t o n adt : i f f n u t h ry l i t r Yw e ell it t , the battles of France in England. Therefore the Rign:c Hnn. Secretary has been wife in cooneaing the po. pular with the regular army, and 611 interefiing the latter, in oopular rights, as toguard again( fuch dan gers as I have alluded to. This brings me to confider the affertion, that the interference of the Hoare is an encroachment on the Royal prerogative. But the an nual dlfeuffion of the Mutiny Bill is a &Scion &awn to that affertion. The affertion I have alluded to, I maintain to be in the higheft degree uneonftitutiooal I and that the troops of the line are, Itrialy fpeakiag, • parliamentary army. The Mutiny Bill, indeed, op the Nei of it, recognizes the tight and authority to which I refer; and any King or Minifter who &add edyife a . King to deal with that army in any manner ineoo fitleot with the prefcription of Parliament, would be guilty of a breach of the Bill of Rights. Hence he contended, that to leave the army entirely to the coo troul of the King, was nneonftitutional. He voted for this plan becaufe it was a good one, and hecaufe fomething extraordinary was requifite. In ill% an extraordinary mediae had been deviled by a man of powerful under-Rending I (the Additional Force Alt of Mr. Pitt) ; but ithad failed. Whatever plan was adopted, it &Gold carry the public mind along with it in order to be fueeetsfyl (a cry of beer/ &so/ flew the Ohyrstion Iworises, eolith tow swerved fives as aim irk. wad Ina" aed indwell, rlwated three or few tipfuJ. That there would be no feeling of )'eeleufy in feamen or veteran foldiers was clear, from no fpcit juloofy having exifted when there were much Arranger motives to excite it. The Honourable Geptlemen conjured Creep:mem on all fides of the Houle to devote their minds to the great object to which the meafure before the Houle alluded ; ob. (crying that they fhopld he more adverfe to France ihan to im i 0 another, and that this was not a time to be occupied about little objects. You mull, laid the Honourable Gentlemen, direa.your minds to higher cor.fiderations than thole difeontents witicb we are tolermaylo4 stile among the n a vy or among ye. terao foldiers. ' Let your difficulties be it:matured by tour danger, eod that difficulties moll be greet that fhould obtiroel your progrefs. Look at the periloos grandeur ch f the power that drafts you, and reilea upon the means necelfary to maintain your own de. cation. Do not tofu yourfelses to be drawn afide from the proper provilions for your fecurity by finest- li ve • dal calculations. You were told that America could not fopport bet espeoditure and mutt there fore flastwit to your arms. The Caine argument was applied to France. But the calculation ems with r‘fpeetto both. The Americans end the French were vtaoriods. rhea a great station detetwdoes to facriftee Week's, and maintain a great principle, there may be danger, there May be filch a thing as deaths but there **boot be defeat, The MASTER of the ROLLS differed from the Hoooqrahle Geotleinasi who (poke lafl in many points. He could very wall underhand how the meafure might not be profitable in inereafing the army; abcl yet be exceffivelybuidenfome to the cowl try. The Himintrible Gentlemn . appeared to him to have (Paned a eery different i dea of what was us. ceirary for an army, than the Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Windham) had P ropo f e d ; f or a l. though 'that Right Honourable Gentleman had talk ed fomething about did privileges, they did not form any part of the plan which had been opened. The etamples firawe from the condua of defpotie Soca . a reigqs to their armies, would not apply to this coon- .' . try. In defpotic States, a deal of the pen would ra move the inconvenience and the contraa: a French Sovereign Might promife; and then publifh an onion. sates to eseufe the non performances but Britith promifes and Ads of ?ornament were not to be Co done awgy. On the Conftiturional part of the quef lion; it would be proper to fay, that if the meafure were to be carried into afar, it ought to receive its operaiTon from the Crown without any.parliamentary interpofition. The King, no do u b t , h a d comp l ete authority'to limit the fervice. The prefent claufe was incongruous with the whole tenor of the Mutiny Bill; that was to augment the powers of his Majely, bat this was to refine thofe powers. He was forty to hear it faid that foldiers were rather to look to the Legifiature thah to the Sovereign, under the idea of aay diffidence in the latter; whatever miftakes might have been committed byparticulor officers,he believed there had been no breach of any deliberate contrite by the Executive Government. When once limited fervice was recommended as a great boon fanaioned by Parliament, an impreffion would be produced in favour of it which it would be impoffible to remove, • and the confequence would be, that indefinite fer rite could not be reflored,however neceffary it might become to the public fecurity. Nothing had yet been laid to thew how this fchemecnuld be accommodated to our colonial eflablifhments, and this made the great diltinetion in the prefent cafe, for Britain had this peculiar °Neel to preferve, which was compara tively of no confequence with thole countries, where limited fervice had been adopted. The Right Ho. nohrable Gentleman (Mr. Windham). prefumed, al though the foldiers had a right to be difcharged, that they would not avail themfelves of loch a right.... It was too much in the Right Honourable Gentle. man to copal, that in the abfence of all proof his prediElions were to be lubilituted for fens. A little had been Paid of the injurious effects of limited fer. vice iii this country ; it was well known that the in• dependence of America had nearly been facrificed to this egregious error in the military fyttem of the provinces. The Additional Force Bill, the Army of Referve Bill, and the mode of recruiting by bal lot, had all been abandoned, fo that now nothing re mauled to interfere with the regular army. Why ~1