Star. — London, England, 1820-02-22 00:00:00

:, r equired, in that statf.of the Seuion, upon the dis cussion of a principle which involved no less than a change, in the constitution of Parliam2nt,as it_went to disfranchise certain Boroughs, and transfer their elective franchise elsewhere. This Bill had noecer-: tainly all that effect; it did not go to the transfer owe of the elective right, but in some measure it , as to produce disfranchisement. As to the Bo !eeehs included in it, there was no evidence to affect :iiree of them; yet it was required that their greatest should 4:put in abeyance. It was allowed :.eat a case was not at preseqt made out to authorize e ! actual disfranchisement, and it was, hardly fair to s uppose that it was right to disfranchise pro heec lie did not see why the plenarty of these Bo hs, in the next Parliament, was to prevent the prosecution of the subject. He thought it -ettld be more proper that these Boroughs should present in the House by their attornies, when the et question of their political existence came to by • • • •ear e d,lie disapproved of an Address to the •••vir on such a subject. If, after an Addresq, the .•,vn could suspend the Weits, it was ackno:v .e.!eed that it could do so before; as an Address con eleed no ;ight on the Crown which it had not be ;.ee, and it might do so with nut any Address, ex •::r9 lie (Mr. 13rougham) could not agree wan an Ilonouhrbie Gentleman in supposing that the punishm.mt which had been lately inflicted upon some Electors, and others, would have the effect of making these Boroughs, or any one of them, inuna cal.ce and pure. lie would take that opportunity to discharge what he conceived to be a duty, in sug testing to the Home the propriety of its clemency being exercised towards an unfortunate individual; who, in the sixty-ei:Jah year of his age, had been sentenced to two years imprisonment for corrupt practices in a Borough. Such a punishment was very sever e. At the same tine that the crime was o:,c against morality, the constitution and privileges of that 11 , use—although not exceedingly rare—this was not like an ordinary case, in which the Crown could pardon of itself. As the prosecution had been ca:eied on by the direction of the llouse of Com nuai. i:s privileges were involved, and the Constitu teeial Advisers of the Crown would not in that case ireeieerc, ualess the !louse expressed a desite that cierneicv shroll.! he extended.. Mr. s . e.IRI.ETT thou g ht it would be delicate for llouse of Commons to interfere to induce the Cr:sr:a to remit a sca:cncc Nviikh the Coutt of King's. lip :ch had imposed. The Membeas of that House, sh.Nild be the last to appear disposed to treat le•:ity such offences, which they were out of doors but too generally suppo,ed to vic•a• with fa. votir.tiilc eyes. He was himself not prepared to say I:l.ft the sentence was to) severe. Though offences or Ili.; kind mi:;ht in some instances gain the Cross, in others the Crown, the Court of King's Bach well always to chew a severe float to .such of- Laces. lle felt reluctant to make there observations, Lcause he had (he would not say the mistortuney occasion to appear as advocate for this individual. .-`.l . _er having done his duty on that occasion, how ever, hi., connexion with him ceased. • BUOUGHAM, in explanation, said, that he did oot speak lightly of the offence, however he might commi,erate the offender. Sir JOSE PH YORKE said, that though he thought the ca,e of Sir Manasseh . Lopez a hard one, he could I not aho but feel for his friend, Mr. Swann, who had only been found guilty because he had done an act of kiodnesi. He had lent a man 1...-20 on account of his necessities ; when tile Election approached, the man offered him his vote on condition of his cancel ling the debt. Swami told him he was such a ruf• flan he would have nothing to do with him. The man told him he should not have the money, but might have the vote. When the contest ran hard, Swoon's frends advised him to close with the man's proposal, and Mr. Swami was induced to do so, and the draft was cancelled. The man was cunning, and said, that when the draft was cancelled he must have it. or his wife otherwise would not be persuaded the debt was at an end. This the good-natured Swann ,!!:? , glo) also consented to, that the wife might be at rest as well as the man. But this came to the oppo site party, who immediately cried out—" Here's bribery !"—and so his Honourable Friend was con victed! ---(A Mr. HARVEY said that Gentlemen, at the very close of Parliament, seemed anxious to impress upon the Public nothing so much as the sympathy which they entertained towards those who violated the most important and sacred of constitutional rights. He suiTorted the Bill. Lord CASTLEREAGH said that he should cer tair,ly vote for the Bill if it came to a division, though he did not think that it was absolutely neces sary, as the next Parliament could pass enactments relating to what had happened in these Boroughs on former occasions, notwithstanding an intermediate exerci'e of the elective franchise. A i facie case 'gas made out against the Boroughs. lie thought, however, the Bill went somewhat further than the precedent set in the ease of the Borough of Shaftes bory, as it went to suspend the writs for an hide& rhte period. However, he did not think it very im portant, and would give it his support. Sir .J. MACKINTOSH said a few words in sup port of the Bill. There was clearly a plaza fad e ca-,e rivide out on which to ground it, and there would be abundance of evidence to warrant the dis franchisement. He did not think the case of Shaftes bury was accurately referred to by the Noble Lord. Lord CASTLEREAGH thought the Shaftesbury co‘o much stronger than the present, as in that case the Lerds had obtained from that House a copy of the evidence token before a Committee upon the ender t r examine such evidence before the Act referred to by the Honourable and Leaarned ( ;eioleirom was arrived to. Lord j. rtussLLL said that the premature dis ation ci Parliameot made a ha.ay measure neces *A. y. As to heavy punishments for bribery he did 'l.l think that they would ever establish purity of etc - ,ohm. 'The only effectual plan was to disfran- C.:• , f at,d corrupt Boroughs, and transfer their foo.c!.he, to more populous and opulent places v! , Hi wine not" represented. Wherever there were :I rallolv Electors to be !blind, there would al '' .00 he men bold enough to corrupt, and others .ro:laieialy poor to make the temptation irresistible. 1•eo,on who tempted was undoubtedly the more able of the two. The Elector was frequently a ; CrnOrt of no education, and was (tot aware of the . . .... . . . crime which he committed against the Constitution: but it was ant so with the person who offered the bribe ;he had not the same ignorance or necessity to plead. As to Mr.Swann he couldonly apply to him the well-known line— " Bora avis its terris,-nigroque simiUmi 4gno !"-(A lanes). Mr. BERNAL supnorted the NIL • After which the Bill was read a , second time, a_ ordered to be committed to-morrow. Oa the motion of Lord PALNizitsmiN, the Mutiny Bill was read a first and second time, ind ordered to be committed to morrow. SUPPLY. On the motion of the CHANCILLOR of the,Encrttnurit, the Order of the Day was read for the House going into a Com mittee of Ways and Means: and, on the motions of the CHAti- CFI.I.Oa of the' EXCMIRQUta and Lord PALMIRSTON, there were ordered to be referred lo the said Committee his Majesty's dost gracious Message, the Army Estimates, and the Civil .Con tingencies. .., TILE QUEEN. On the motion that the Speaker should leave . the Chair, Mr: FLUME rose and observed, that befOreilie Speaker left the Chair, he was anxious to obtain-So:the information upon a point, with regard to which he had, on a former-evening, felt it his duty to pUt a question to the Noble Secretary of State, to which question he had received a very unsatisfactory an swer. He meant with respect to the situation of the Queen. If there were any subject which more than another intere s ted the feelings of that House and the Public, he believed it was the condition of this illus trious personage. For what was that condition ? It was clear, from recent occurrences, as well as from the language of the Noble Lord, that the Queen was not only unacknowledged, but that it was apparently determined that she was not to be acknowledged— Every loyal man must witness such a course of pro.' ceeding with great surprise and regret, and there fore he was astonished to see that many loyal and constitutional Gentlemen in that House seemed dis posed wholly" to overlook the subject. He by no means intended to express any doubt of the disposi tion of his. Majesty to act with fairness and liberality upon this or any other occasion, but he must say that he was extremely surprised at the course which his Ministers scented inclined to take. Was it proposed, he would ask the Noble Lord, that the dissolution should take place without making any distinct pro vision for the Queen ? It was known, that the Act by which thirty-five thousand pounds a-year were granted to her Majesty had expired upon the demise the King,- and was it now intended to leave her unprovided for ? In what situation was it meant that the Queen of England should stand? Was she to be left as a beggar on the Continent, or' was she to depend for her subsistence upon the mere bounty of some person or persons in England ? He main tained, that as Queen, she was peculiarly entitled to the attention of that House, and that something de finite as to the means of her future provision, should be immediately stated. The answer of the Noble Lord, on a former evening, was so indefinite and unsalisfaCtory upon this subject, that he felt himself called upon, by a sense of public duty, again to bring the qtiestion under the consideration of that llouse. He was quite sorry to see the manner in which the Queen was treated. Why was not an Address of , Condolence and Congratulation voted to her Majesty , upon the demise of the King; and upon the accession of her husband to the Throne, as was the case with regard to the Queen Consort of George 11. ? Upon what ground was the Queen passed by altogether upon this occasion, or why was her Majesty's name omitted in the Liturgy ? He did, he must confess, expect a different course from Ministers. But her Majesty was so completely slighted, that it was quite unknown to the Public in what manner she was here after to be treated. If the Queen were to land at Portmouth to-morrow, there was no arrangement or understanding how she was to be received, or whe ther she was to meet the marks_ of recognition and respect usually evinced towards the members of the Royal Family, or how the public functionaries were to behave towards her Majesty-. These were cir...l cumstances, with regard to which. Fome explanatpn should be given to the Hots ; .e ond i the couvrf, and , he called upon the Noble Lord. to give that expla nation in definit..: terms. He asked the Noble Lord, how the wedded wife of the Kin.g,:wisto be treated, or whether as a husband in private life was bound by law to provide for the subsistence of his consort, the Queen Consort was to have any settled provision ? It was, no doubt, discretionary on the part of the Noble Lord to answer his question, but he expected an answer as a matter of courtesy, but still more in order to satisfy the public mind. He did not mean to say that the Queen was likely to be altogether ne glected, but he must observe, that it was due to the rank which her Majesty held in the Constitution, as well as to the character of the country and the claims of public justice, that the means of providing for the maintenance of her dignity should .be definitively fixed—that she should not be left dependent upon mere bounty; and, that as she lived separate froth her husband, some distinct provision : should be made for the adequate support of her•exalted station. Lord CrcSILEIItAGH said, he thought the an swer which he had given the Honourable Gentleman on a former evening would havedieen deemed quite satisfactory. If the Honourable Member had waited for the motion which his Right Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer proposed to submit, he would have seen that no distinct provision was to be voted for the King, any more than. for..the High Per sonage to whom he had alluded, but that a sum was to be voted from the Consolidated Fund, our of which it was intended to make provision for that High Per sonage, as well as for the general purposes of his Majesty. Here the Noble Lord took occasion to ex press his regret that any attempt should be made at present to press into discussion in that House the very delicate question adverted to by the Honourable Gentleman—Wear, hear, hear!) — as such discussion was but too likely to create a 'ferment in the country, • while it was calculated to give pain to the Illustrious Personages more immediately interested—( Hear, hear)—lie had curly to add, that the Honourable eiltleman might be fully assured that the High Personage to whom he referred was by no means likely to experience anything like harshness or inat teation—(Lond cries of Dear, hear). Mr. I - lUME observed, that his wish was to have a distinct provision tor the Queen, at least equal to that which she enjoyed under the late Act of Parliament. • Lord CASTLEREAGH stated, that such provi sion was intended to be granted out of the sum for . . . . which his Rigl4l Hon.. Friend the Chancellor of the kichetrer proposed to Move. Mr. ITER NEY declared hit -Unwillingness to vote .any sum for the Queen, until some explanation should be given or premised, as to the rumours which had gone Abroad with respect to .her conduct and cha racter..npon the Continent; He agreed with the NCl ble Lord in thinking this a very delicate question to be discussed• in that House. But by whom was it brouglifinto discussion? Why, by Ministers them selves, who; although they deprecated this discussion at present, held out she prospect of some such dis cussion at a future (Here Lord CASTLEREAGH in timated his dissent). ----" Then," said Mr. Tierney, " I mistook the Noble Lord; and that mistake is an ad 7 tional reason with me for resistigg the proposed Grant." So it seemed that there wasiO be no discus son at all upon the conduct of the Qileen; after all the world had heard about that conduct—Wear, hear..9L—Yet it would appear that her Majesty was not to be recognized. He would ask the Noble Lord, whether anything like recognition had taken place, or was meditated ? Was the Queen yet aware of the death of the King, or of the situation in which she stood in consequence of that event? Had any com munication been made to her Majesty upon the sub ject on the part of his Majesty's Ministers ?—How came it that the name of the Queen was omitted in the Liturgy ; or what was the reason of that omission? —(Hear, hear!)—These things required explanation. But, from the whole of the circumstances connected with this transaction, as well with regard to his Ma jesty as with regard to his Consort, he had no hesita tion in stating, that the King had been betrayed, or the Queen had been insulted—(Hear!)—As au honest Member of Parliament, he felt himself called upon to make this declaration. He was not actuated *by any party motive or personal prejudice whatever, . but he would repeat, that in this case, either the King was betrayed or the Queen was insulted— (Hear, hear). He had heard of rumours with regard to the behaviour of the Queen, which, if true, could leave no'doubt that she was totally unworthy to oc cupy the Throne of England, and if so, the King was surely entitled to the same justice that the law granted to the lowest subject in relieving him from a degraded connection. This was a discussion into which he entered with the utmost reluctance. He was fully aware of its delicacy, and he could not advert to it without pain, but he felt that he must , do his duty. He bad heard of a Commission having been sent to the Continent, in order to collect evi dence as to the misconduct of the Queen ; and was' it possible that the Noble Lord, with evidence in his pocket to spew that misconduct, could attempt to apply to that House for any grant of public money to an unworthy person? This was really a case of such a nature, as that House was bound to sift to the bottom, and if the rumours in circulation were true, justice should he promptly done to his Majesty; while on the other hand, if these rumours were mere calumnies, no time should be lost in vindicating the character of the Queen. One party or the other must have been grossly ill-treated. But when, hewould ask, were the rumoured discoveries made with regard to .the misconduct of the Queen ? Upon the death of the ,Queen, about twelve months ago, the Liturgy was al tered, and on that alteration it was directed that the Princess of Wales shouli be distinctly prayed for.— Yet, on the late alteration of the Liturgy, the name of this illustrious personage is left out. The disco covery, then, of the alleged misconduct must have been made within the last twelve months, or whence the • difference between these two periods ? Why was she to be publicly prayed for as Princess of' Wales, whose name was to be altogether suppressed, when she became Queen of England ? Now the question was brought before the House and the Country, it must not be blinked, and he, for one, had no hesitation in - saying, that if the Queen were really guilty of the rumoured misconduct, no quibbles of law, or quirks in evidence, should prevent justice from being immediately rendered to the King. But, i on the other hand, if the Queen were calumniated, he would have her character completely vindicated, ~and all her rights asserted and maintained. Butnn sil her character was re-established, he could not conseut to vote her- a penny of the public money.— While the Noble Lord called her merely that "high Personage," instead of recognizing her as the Queen— while all Italy, nay, all Europe, was fi lled with ru mours of her guilt , and of o fficial inquiries about it—while her name was omitted in the Liturgy— while she was not acknowledged, he could not agree to vote her the means of maintaining herself, until the reasons for such extraordinary circumstances as he had recited should be satisfactorily explained.- The thick cloud that covered this case must be re moved—the deep mystery in which it was involved must be unravelled, before his mind could be satis fied as to the propriety of the proposed grant. He had every disposition to do justice to the Queen ; and no one would, perhaps, go farther to support her right, when her innocence was established. He had no personal koowledge whatever of her Majesty. He never received—he never expected any favour from her. His object was to have her case full,/ explained, from an anxiety for justice, and from a solicitude to maintain the moral dignity and high character of the Monarchy of England. Mr. BROUGHAM observed, that if his Right Honourable Friend, who had just sat down, felt so peculiarly the delicacy of discussing this question, he hoped the House would, for various reasons, give him credit for feeling that delicacy even more. He could not, indeed, enter into this discussion without pain, but he hoped the House would indulge him' with its attention for a few moments, and the more so, as he differed very materially from the views of his Right Honourable Friend upon the subject. H,e concurred fully with his Right Ilonourable Friend as to the importance of the question alluded to, but he felt, he apprehended, still more than his Right Honourable Friend, the difficulty and the delicacy which that question involved. There was no di!}- culty, however, in his view, in that part of the case upon which his Right Honourable Friend had so .much dwelt, because it did not appear to him a mat ter of any importance whether the Queen were re cognized or not by any of the means recited by his Right Honourable Friend. For whether .her name were inserted or omitted in the Liturgy, or in any act of Council, she was constitutionally and indisput ably Queen Consort. Being indeed the wedded wife of the King, the moment he succeeded to the Crown she was re ipse Queen of England. Upon the demise of his father she,. in fact, became as lawfully tu)cl rightfully the Queei as her husband became the King of this country.. Her title, thin, .did not di pend upon-any words in the Liturgy; or upon ant . act of Council; or upon any expression which a [Mt nister of the Crown thought proper to eitiploy in that House. Such things, indeed, had no effect whatever upon the rights of the Queen ; —they w ere as trifle light as air,' and could not operate in the slightest degree to impeach the title of her Majesty. Nor 'tai it in the power of that House, by any vote it thought proper to pronounce, to impeach that title. So much as to the tit& of the Queen, and now as to the pro: posed vote of provision for the maintenance of her dignity. That provision was, it appeared, to be mad out of the general sum for which the Mi n i s t er w iR about to move, and if that sum were sufficiqnt• tei afford this pro Vision, in addition to all tht other of, jects of the grant, that must, he apprehended; serv e to answer the purpose of those who were solicitoui for the adequate supply of her Majesty. Out of the propbsed grant, • the proportion which would be re quisite to make good to the Queen the loss of her late revenue of thirty-five thousand pounds a-year; would be, furnished, and that arrangement was, at present to ki s s mind, quite satisfactory, for he could not rest upon mere technical objections. Then, ai to, the rumours-to which. his Right Honourable Friend had alluded, and which were imagined to cast a cloud of suspicion upon the character of the Queen, he totally disregarded such rumours. He would; indeed, refuse *his ears ,to every thing like rumour; suspicion, or insinuation, so long as her Majesty remained Queen Consort. He would listen to no tales about inquiry or Commission, nor would he allow the rumoured result, or any rumoured in ; quirt' to have the slightest effect upon his judgment. But if anything in the shape of a distinct charge against the Queen should be brought before that House, he hoped he should be 'found to act as be came an honest Member of Parliament, by pro ' nouncing a fair decision, not only between the par; ties immediately concerned, but with regard to the public interest, which the consideration of such an important question must necessarily involve.. Ile trusted he would be found, in such a case, ready to do equal justice to the Queen, to the King, and rf, the Public, with a due regard to all the national and constitutional points naturally belonging to such an investigation. But till some specific charge ihnuld ' be submitted to that House, he was determined that his lips should be sealed upon the subject ; but he must say, that( injustice to the high Personage al luded to, he thought that no opinion should be ex pressed upon her conduct merely on the authority of rumour. If any charge should be preferred, he beg ged it to be recollected, that this illustrious Personage was not remarkable for any slowness to meet accu. sation, nor for any difficulty to prove her innocence. Remembering, then ; her alacrity on the subject of .former charges, it was but candid to give her credit for equal alacrity to meet any charges that might hereafter be advanced, and for equal facility, too, in confounding her accusers—( Meer, hear, hear!) —But the question which his Right Honourable Friend , had thought proper to discuss, was of such an important character, that he hoped Gen• tiemen would at all times feel the propriety of considering it with calmness and temper. That bound up as-that question was with the feelings of all the Royal Family, he trusted no appeal upon the subject would ever be made to any turbulent pas sions out of doors (Hear, hear, especially from Lord Castlereas and . those who sat near him). Such an appeal, indeed, upon such a subject, could not be too forcibly deprecated at any time, because its only effect would be the radical subversion of the principles of justice—(Hear, hoar, hear). But espe cially under existing circumstances, an appeal of that nature must serve to raise a ferment in the country, and to have the names of illustrious personages dragged through the mire of every hustings through. out the empire (Hear, hear, on the Ministerial benches). If any discussion of this important question should ever arise in Parliament, its character was ample guarantee for the examination of the subject with justice, moderation, and candour; and deeply inte rested as he must be in the question, from profes sional considerations, as well as from his duties as Member of that House, he would enter into the dis cussion with a full confidence of an eqeitable result. Lord CASTLEREAGH said, that he had not in-, tended to address the House again upim a question of which the House must feel the extreme delicacy, . and ho [rose only for the purpose of thanking the ; Honourable and Learned Gentleman for a speech which did equal honour to his head and his heart, . and which must have carried conviction to all who [ heard it. His Majesty's Ministers had not lost sight . of the inconvenience which might arise from a lapse [ of the provision which had been made for an Illus.: [ trims Personage, and it was their intention to submit • a suitable measure to the consideration of the House. The House then resolved itself into a Committee of Supply. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER proposed a Vote of £400,000, towards satisfying stich Annuities and Pensions as would have been paid out of the Consolidated Fund, in case the demise of his Majesty had not taken pl a ce. Mr. TIERNEY said, that if he understood the Right Honourable Gentleman's proposal, it' was to enable the Crown to make good all payments out of the Civil List, in payments from the Consolidated Funds. Now the Civil List recognized no annuity to the Queen. An annuity had been granted to her as Princess of Wales—and Princess of %Vales there was now none. Unless, therefore, the word Queen were introduced, her Majesty would not have one sixpence of income unless by the bounty of bis Majesty's Ministers. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER then moved for a sum not exceeding £50,000, to provide for such expenses of a civil nature as did not form a part of the ordinary charges.—Agreed to. INSOLV,NT DEBTORS BILL. On the motion for the second reading of the Imo!. vent Debtors' Bill, Lord ALTHORPE said, that he wished Gentle men to consider Well the objections to this Bill, which were, the claw compelling Debt , ' s to take the be. ne6t of the Act, and allowing the Creditor to come upon the Debtor for after-payment of his debt. • For his own part, he considered the first as one if Ylie greatest advantages arising from the Act; for he did not think it right that the Debtor should derive every ,;~ fi '~ • rc‘ - •) ~ n ~~~ s