Star. — London, England, 1812-07-24 00:00:00

.L., pia All he should asic Wig tie iptietnt. g of a Committee , who m i ght sit next Session, :h at usliould inquire into the amount of our income d annu al expenditure, and the while state of ou r P r i n san ces. r his opinion they were not able to con . a ra i s i ng supplies adequate to carry on a war like ; pres ent ; and lie therefore wished its scale to be reduce d, or the war itself discontinued. The finances ii re land were in an equally bad state, for which he itie most sincere regret, knowing that country to ca r ble of great and permanent improvement.—. H o se had long neglected the true interest of l o t fruitful country, from the inattention which it t o the Catholic Question. , We were putting laced hats upon the heads of the Irishmen, and 1 themwithout shoes or stockings. (A laugh. had always been his opinion whenever be heard ' b e ussion upon the propriety of qualifying them wine Generals and Admirals, Chancellors and s. (A laugh.) He should wish to support a r e which could give certain scope to their stand industry in every sphere of life. The fol . g We the Resolutions of the Hon. Baronet : That it appears) i.Tbati be amount of the Capital Funded Debt of Great Bri. As tilelst of February, 1802, was £536,657,603. Gs. sid. I r dw i el /Annuities for lives or fur a term of years, to the Iwo d 8101,57. 19s. lid. of which there had been purcha. ~A b , tie Commissioners for redeeming the National Debt, A , and transferred to the said Commissioners, for X 18.001,148. ss. s<l. and Annuities had arsiCenting to £79,860. 14s. 6d. reducing the Debt to A scoBl. Is. Old. and the Annuities to .01,001,4/7. 49. 71d. mit the amount of the Capital Funded Debt for Ireland, co me in Great Britain, on the Ist day of February, 1802, was `plolos,78:1, of which there bad been redeemed by the said Causiaceers £786,407, leaving the Debt of Ireland at 110201 That die amount of the Captial Funded Debt of Great Bri lion the Ist of February, 1312, was £747,429,339. Ils. 31d. sesashicresse of the Debt since 1 bO2 of X 204,237,812. 184.91,4 i. [which there had been transfrrred to the Commissioners by sso d Land Tax redeemed, £23,941,057. es. 7d. and for the sane of Life Annuities, £1,6C6,040, which sums, together, _ . W1i1119,5313,480, purchased by the Commissioners for reZleem- WtheNational Deb., having the total amount of Debt on the niofFebruary, 1812, £556,1.84,812.05 113 d. 4. That the amount of the Capital Funded Debt of In land, on Ihittof Febrrary, 1812, was £61,274,250, being an increase of lON, since 1892, of all : ,565,500, of which there has been re lied by cite Commissioners, £9,985,958, leaving the total Jed Debt of Ireland, £59,188,292. That the Loans to the Emperor of Germany, forming part ii'mfunded Debt of Great Britain, amoui.t to £7,562,633. 68.6 d, i which there has been' redeemed by the said Commissioners, f 1,354,51 4,leaving the Debt unreduc.cd, on the lit of February, 612, £6,459,119.65. Bd. 6. That the Loan to the Prince Regent of Portugal amounted a the Ist of February,lBl2, to £895,522.75. 9d, of which there Is been redeemed by the Commissioners, £118,568, leaving an redeemed Debt of £776,954, 7s. 9d. 7. That the Funded Debt created in 1807 by the 47th of the 'went King, and charged on War Taxes, amounts to 18,072 COO, of which £4,968,107, has been redeemed by the ommisilon:r4 for reduction of Debt; leaving of unredeemed kbe cba ged on War Taxes, £13,103,894. 8. That the total of Funded Debt, consisting of the foregoing as, and unredeemed on the Ist February, 1812, amounts to 15,518085. 58. 51d. _ . _ 9. That the Annual Interest of the said Debt is X 20,749,828. 0.70. and the Total Charge thereof, iccluding expences of wagemen*, Ste. £35,608.615. Is. sd. 10. That the amount of Unfunded Debt of Great Britain, on ie:th of January, 1804, was £..:3,787,151. 15s. 30.—in 1805, 01,115,548. 9s. 94.1.—and on the sth January, :012., outman demand. at that date.) £44,038,049. 145. flld. being snafus of the unfunded Debi, compared with the year 1804, 0f90,450807. 185.1 V. anct In .1 k ng the amount of the Funded 011111116 died Debt,iotittnrntettfiel of the presaft year - , 1416,24.1 11.31 at the Amount of l i slctiey raised for the service of tte yeeeritsg •1!e. sth 'unary, 104, wail #!53,500,915. 11$. lett!. utdoithe year ending iithJattoary 1812, £105,718,682. 1 as. 614. kg an it crease in that period at £47,217,761. Is. 80. hank.' et Produce of the Permanent Tares, on the Sth Jimmy', Ist 2, 'ma £14,497,860, and in the year cuffing the eLiptil, int 2, £40,986,860, 16s. 100. being:an increase of "MAX It That the atramt of the War Taxis in the year ending Stb 1812, Was X:11,999,5,0. 93. 41d. making the net sum ais. Taus L that year, £6 !.986,41 I. 6s. Sad. IX That ender the financial,diticulties of the Country, awl gnat pressure of Taxation on the subject, it becomes the duty of Parli.iment to recommend, and of Ministers to k, the most rigid economy in every department of the ;and, above all things, to use every endeavour (without en. the securi.y, or compromising the honour of the Coon ,) to procore to h.. People the r , sturation of the bles‘ingii of e, as the only effectual mea.‘s of relieving the burdens of the hearty, or of avertiLg tier (ot ise) inevitable ruin of its Ft. if the same scale of Expenditure tie continued for a much Eder me. Mr. TIERNEY rose and observed, that he felt tare of deviating from the usual forms of the House, the Resolutions which he intended to submit Ivied very little fro m th ose o f the H o n. Baronet, he L , Ole 'hake et the tut three yeah the* had beet an excess of ten millions raised by the loan, above the sum paid by the Commissioners for liquidating the National Debt. A considerable part of the raitsan . ding debt of forty-nine millions in January, 1812, had been provided for by Exchequer Bills t but in 1812 there had been twenty-six millions more of market able property in the money market than in 1804. i The Government Was wholly in the power of the Bank with respect to Exchequer Bills, and the Loan of the present year was so large, because the Bank had demanded that two millions and a half of Exchequer Bills should be paid off. He wished to have it explained why the Bank had pitched upon the most inconvenient time for making such a demand. It shewed clearly that the Chancellor of the Ex chequer could not go on without the Bank. There was now a permanent charge eleven millions, and the Consolidated Fund was all the Country had to rely on, to meet this expenditure: at present it was only met by six millions. 'I he Country thought that peace would relieve them fi om all their burdens, but many ;axes must still be continued wheneve r a I ..eace should be made. The Right Honourable Gentle man entered into several strtements to chew that, ever and above the usual peace estahlishment, nine millions would remain to be provided for. To talk of savings anA retrenchments was a jest, as none could be made of any magnitudt. Indee 1, any thieg of that nature had a tendelie l y to weaken the hands of Government. Witness the claMour 'hat h id been raised against Lord St. Vincent. What now was wanted, was a strong measure of finance origi• nating from a strong Administration. Whenever Peace came, the whole system m o st be recast. For the last Resolution of the Hon. Baronet he could not vote, which went to stste that n thing but peace could save the the Finances of the Country from ruin. His remedy was in a strong measure of Finance, to which if properly explained, the Country would not object. There was a sutticient strength in the body of the Counts y to bear a strong medicine. But the system of the last nine years must end in destruction. —( Hear, hear, hear.)-- total sum raised by Great Britain was 9.s.millions, add to that four mil., lions for Ireland, and two millions and a half for the India Company, and the sum would he little less ' than 102 millions, and this daily increasing. In the j first year he had taken (1804) the supplies raised I within the year had exceeded the loan. Latterly, the reverse had been the case, and every th ng had peen done to injure the Consolidated Fund. He would ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer, as he would the Prince Regent, to consider the deplorable stee of public credit. He hoped the Right Honourable Gentleman would bestow upon it the most serious consideration during the recess of Parliament, and would prove the founder of a new system, by which we might ultimately be enabled to secure an honour able peace. , Sir THOMAS TURTON explained. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER by no means agreed in his conclusions with the Hon. Baronet. The people cf this country had shesvn, by what they hid already done, what they were still able and willing to do. The lion. Baronet had pro posed the appoi,itment of a Committee to inquire into he sate of our finances. But it a Committee c. u.d -have reli,-..ved ham raur digresses, we shoulg liti been relieved long before. On an occasion like the present, there should be nothing I ke the triumph of party, but'all should b:: actuated by a common feel ing for the advantage of the country. Nothing of importance had been stated by the lion. Baronet, rich would not be found embodied in the Resotu 'hoes ne should have the honour to propose to the Horse. Upon his Resolutions, he should therefore move the previous question. Upon the last of them It was not accessary for him to say much, after what had Wins from the Right Han. Gentleman. He should only observe, that it went to depreg the spirit of the country, and to weaken the exertions of our 1 Allies. Heve much credit to the Right Hon. Gentleman ( Mr. Tierney) for tile manner in which he had drawn up his Resolutions, and which, upon some future occasion, it might be desirable in part to adopt. They contained, however, some jnaccuracies, ' that made them not fit to receive the sanction of the House, and upon them 'also he should move the pre..l visas question. One objection be had to them was, tbat the Right Hon. Gentleman 'had not kept the Finances of England and Ireland sufficiently diganct. There had been no expences .on the Continent till 1808, wf.en the Spaniards had taken up arms against their oppressors, and the expences of our maritime and insular should have been distinguished from those of the continental war. Extraordindry expences should be defrayed by m , ..asure, t 'ken upon the spur of the occasion. Such was the ilea of Lord limry Petry, who thought that our proper expences might be defrayed within the year. 'l'hi; he also thought might be done. In the years 1795 and 1793 there had been a great depression of public credit, though then there was no Property Tax. After the Property Tax had been laid on, public credit rose rapidly.— The Right Hon. Gentleman's attack upon the Bank was untair. The Bank had remonstrated near a year tiled to stand excused in stating the nature of them athat time. For four or five years he had troubled the House on that subject to little effect ; but cir ernstances had now so much altered, that he could 1 zot. again h e l p o ff er i ng a new statement o f our Fi-1 411 ces to the House, and to the country. He should confine himself to the period beginning the sth of anuary, 1804, and ending the sth of January, 1812,1 iverlooki ng t h e broken part of 1803, when the war commenced, to avoid intricacy and inconvenience.— His first Resolution skewed the progress of our annual t V e nditure, as connected with the war, and that ( WY. The second went to slim what had been the i Agless if our annual resources, to meet the est( leeeture. Th e t hi r d, w h ence t h ose resources had I _tee. what money had been borrowed, and ..what i nit had u p on t h e money mar k et. Th e f ourt h s vu,.w far the Sinki ng , Fund is applicable to the re-.; 'minion of the funded debt. The fifth. shewed the . I rate end progre ss o f t h e un f un d e d d e b t . Th e s i x th r 7t'd the money raised by unfunded Exchequer and' oart Bills, and the debt so increased. The seventh &.'ed how suc h d e b t had been provided tor. The " Resolution shewed the actual ,xpenditure of the Present year. The Right Hon. Gentleman then coin ;'uted at con s id era bl e l engt h on eac h R eso l ut i on .— ' ,Iletne two first Resolutions were extremely important, they tended to shew the means we had of meet- N she expenditure. The third went to shew the !wet of the Funding system. In nine years the 41( !'",...,, se of the F un d e d D e b t wou ld b e ninet y- one 'woo, on the first of January 1813 ; and in the slue nine years the Sinking Fund bad increased !% 8 00,000. The Sinking 1. und had risen from 1.77 r 144 of the funded debt, but it was a very singular l fit, that public Credit, notwithstanding this, had sustained. No relief had been given to the Edens of the Country by the Sinking fund. An Ireoont of capital was taken from the Country, to it in value. He was compelled to think Im mutt,- was is an exhausted state, and that there ens an end to the advantages of the Sink nil' Fund. The fourth Resolution went to spew when the Sink. Fund would batunce the Lava of tilt year. Itt ago with Mr. Perceval, to reduce the issue of Exche quer Bills. The increase of the Unfunded Debt had always been discouraged by the Bank. He himself had, three years bask, remonstrated against such in-' crease. The Right Hon. Gentleman took occasion to pronounce a high encomium on the financial talents of Mr. l'erceval, who itad checked the frauds of the revenue, and had avoided increasing the nominal capital of the Funded Debt. Many were ignorant of the difference between this nominal capital and the actual value, especially among the other nations of Europe. It was a very important consideration how we should repay, in time of peace, when the Funds would be high, what was borrowed in time of war, when they were low. In the ten years pre ceeding the Peace of Amiens, twenty-eight millions had been added to the War Taxes, while only eight millions had been added in the course of the last nine years. It was a great consolation, in the present state of our maninactures and scarcity of grain, to I know that the Revenue had not dimin ed, and that the Revenue account, made up to last July, exceeded that of the former year. It was desirablt, he thought, that our Revenue should be co-extensive with our ex penditure, as little hope was at present to be enter. tained of peace. An extension of taxation would there fore become necessary, with respect to the objects of which different opinions might be entertained. A tar, he thought, might be introduced with advantage ion Capital, as distingbished from the Meanie Tar. ' etplaining my clearly hoar he intended to dreg th. Some exertion would be necessary, he admitted, for nation on for that same 15 years. One had suggested preserving public , credit, and with that view some a tax on coals, another a tax on iron, a third a tax on laddition might be made to the Sinking Fund, so as wool; and the Chancellor of the Exchequer threet j ; always to bring it up to the sum borrowed. What out a hint of a tax on capital, in addition to the tax i might' be the state of the Country next Session, or to .on income. These were alarming symptoms. Mee. I whom the arduous lot might fall of conducting the sures like these could hardly have been in contem. 'financial department, he knew not, but, should the plation, unless our resources had appeared to be al- ' ilot be his, he would find it necessary to propose more most desperate ; and if he were to form an estimate i vigorous Resolutions than those that had been sub- of the state of the country from what he had that 1 , ftlitted to the Hous e on thi s occas i on . i night heard, he might conclude, to use a figure of a Mr. HUSKISSON considered that the House was Right Hon. Friend of his (Sheri.'an), that the scuts very much obliged to the Hon. Baronet for the atten- : tling time was almost come. All appeared to agree don he had given to this subject. It was useful, at in this, that in the present state of our in; one, as , certain periods, to take a view of the state of the compared to our expenditure, we could not go one 'Country, and to see the efforts of which we were ca• And if this was the case t if this view of our fpable, or the probability of continuing them. During situation had any foundation, ought tort a wise the last twenty years of war in which we had been en. Government to shew some more anxiety to enter (gaged, it was a satisfaction to see the great exertions into negociations for peace. The alarming de. iwe had made, and that our resources were still of an • preciation of Bank paper` ought also to be noticed. encouraging nature, notwithstanding the late pressure Our situation in Oat respect was new.a great deal ;of the times, and the great want of employment on worse than when the House agreed to the whimsical the part of the manufacturing population. Our great ' resolution of the present Chancellor of the Exche. lexpenditure had not yet impaired the industry of the ' quer, that hi public estimation paper- was equal to ;Country. The difficulty, however, of adding to the • gold. WI .t wou'd be the situation of the country, I present burdens ef the people, without impairag our if, in addition to all our other difficulties, we should 'national industry, could not be denied. The low Ibe involved in the calamity of e continued war with state of credit was ore great difficulty we had to en- ; America ? We were at this moment at war with counter, and they should, therefore, by every possible j America, though he hoped that it would not long con. isneai , s, endeavour to diminish the loans of the year,' tinue. But it it did, and such taxes as they had ;and increase the good will of the community, 'which, heard of that night were to be imposed under the in more than any thing, would induce them to submit creased difficulties of the country, it might indeed Ito the sacrifices they were called on to make. He • then be said, the scuttling time was come. He con- . had long considered, as a necess try measure, the di- curled in the resolution of the H n. B owlet, re. mirtution of the expenses attending our several esta- commending a due attention to the restoration of blithments, as the Naval, Colonial, and Military.— peace. But then it was said, the Executive Go. In 1805, when the enemy's navy were in greater vernment ought not to be fettered. This was tree, vigour, and when the victory of Trafalgar gave us if the Government had evinced an eareest desire so decided a superiority. our naval establishment to procure peace on honourable terms, which, be consisted only of 120,000 seamen, whereas now it contended, it hadnot. Let them send t 6 B ovarie s was 135 or 140,000 men, though there was less and state the terms on which they were desirous to necessity for exertion. They were to consider whether conclude a peace, as he had repeatedly sent to us.— i this increased establishment was absolutely neces- If they did not do this, they would probably be soon sary, or if they might not yetrench, on the ground of compelled to do it, by petitions from the people, and i 1 , economy, without affecting our naval superiority. doing it under that duress they would be forced to —We ought to follow the example of our enemy, in accept of worse terms. Why had not a diminuti nin making great exertions only where great objects the expenditure of the naval department taken place, were in view. They were also to prepare for great when our fleets had so little occupetion, and when i sacrifices. When public credit was high, it would our navy WAS so much more powerful than any thing be more advantageous to borrow ; but, on the con- that could be brought to oppose it ? As a proof of trary, when credit was lose, they ought to borrow as that superiority without keeping up such great num. little as possible, and raise as much as could be done hers of ships, if any proof had been suet in, he might by immediate taxation. On this subject, however, mention an anecdote of our Admiral on the Scheldt i he deprecated any discussion, as having a pernicious station, who wrote to Government that the Scheldt tendency, except such discussion or arrangements as fleet appeared preparing to cone: out, begging at the cotes float Government. That pace would be de. same time that they should not think of sendi'tg him sirable, nobody could deny, provided the war could reinforcements. They had 18 ships—he had 12 te be terminated on satisfactory terms. We had now if they sent him more, the French would not venture no positive object for continuing - the war. Of pos- out. While he had only twelve, they might ; And session we lied obtained enough. and the glory we he was sure of giving them a sound drubbing.. had acquired would sufficiently establish opr charac- The tax on wool was one which had never yet been ter as a military nation ; but there were other consi. in the contemplation of any of our financiers.. deletions also to be kept in view, end particularly So much, indeed, remained for him to say, that he the situation of our allies, and with respect to our. 'was sorry the motion had .sot been made earlier in selves, that we should not be reduced to a secondary the Session. when he should have taken an opportu. power in the scale of Europe. There could not be nity of calling their attention to our domestic situa any mind in the country so mean as to suppose this don. The Sovereign was at present in a state, from coun could be conquered. He therefore eon. which it was only possible to recover ; but the Prince del z .the• tone end spirit of the 1-40 S Sosiagatied 'twat %SOB* web a stete, that very little fear was proposed by the Honourable Baronet. Their busi. to be ipprXended of his being snatched from amongst ness w.ts not to respond of our resources, but to re- us. Should that unhappy event, however, haiipen, store public credit as much as possible ; and this was (which Goo forbid) in what a situation should we be? to be done, he thought, rather by taxation than re- The next in succession to the Crown was a fern the, of teeing to loans. Ireland, he contended, was cape- full age to become a Queen, but during the life of out ble of - contnbutirg more than she did. Though her venerable Sovereign we must have only a Regent.— credit was higher than that of this cilium y, she was To whom, therefore, were we to look ? The Law► neither called on for the Land nor Property Tax.— had provided no remedy, and it was impossible to It would be necessary to lie prepared before next au foresee theembarrannients into which Parliament in . tion for making greater s 'entices. such a situation might find itself placed. That illus. Mr. BA RING complimented the Right Honour- trious female too, although of age to take the Crown able Gentlem in (Mr. Tierney) for the clearness and by law, had hitherto been kept in a state of seclusion, precision of his statements, and was glad that. the but he now hoped the time had come when she should subject had been discussed without any party" feeling. shew herself to the anxious eyes of those who were He believed the people cf this country were able, if hereafter to be her subjects. He concluded with ex, necessary, tie bear still more taxation. Our new cold- pressing a sincere hope, that an effort would be made nies, while they extended our dominions, added to our to procure an honourable peace. ' erpence; but mast have occasioned us more expence Mr. WILBERFORCE paid a high compliment in the hands of the enemy. He condemned the sys. to the memory of Mr. Pitt, who had rendered the tern of borrowing, as merely putting off the necessity Finances of the country so clear, that they might be of taxation, which must at last be imposed, and then understood by the most ordinary capacities. He was not to bear the expence, but to pay off the debt. He anxious for peace. He was by ho means disposed to saw no great objection to a tax on Capital, as a spe- say, that it was impossible to conclude peace with cies of redemption from the Property Tax. He re- Bonaparte. They must derive security from their commended also a tax on Sheep's Wool, which, .in strength, and resources independent of any conside. hi's opinion, from the other advantages we enjoyed, ration of his character. But surely the Honourable could not injure the manufacture. There might Gentleman over the way could not imagine that any also be a tax on Coals and Iron, and Stamps might peace could at present be made on the terms of leay. be extended to klend-bills and Plac.irds. He was ing Spajn in the hands of Joseph Bonaparte. He afraid we had not sufficiently conciliated Ireland, to concluded by strongly recommending all possible ren make her taxes more efficient. India might also be trenchment and economy. made more effective, which, in his opinion, did not The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER contribute. equally to the public expenditure. With denied stating a tax on capital as one to which he in. respect to peace, it was neither our cooky nor lute- tended to have recour se . He only stated it to shell rest to cry out. The question was, if we could exist what might he done on the severest emergency. as a nation with peace. A pence, for a few months Mr. HUME made a few observations with respect continuance only, would be attended with much ad- to the affeirs of the East-India Company, and expres. ditional expence, without affording any permanent ! sed a wish that Great Britain would reduce her expen. advantage. diture in the manner that had been done in India. Mr. COURTNEY contended, that the revenue Mr. BARING explained. had been increasing from the growing state of our Sir THOMAS TURTON replied briefly to the commerce, independently of any new taxes. During , various points which had been urged in the course of the three years that no new taxes were imposed, the the debate. Mr. HUSKISSON explained. revenue was two millions and a half more than in The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, the three preceding years. A great deal, he thought, in rising to move the previous question, took the op- might be done by mortgaging parts of the Revenue. , portunity of stating, that he had learned, at the pe. - He also pointed out the advantages of the Sinking I nod of the peace of Amiens, that there was a tax of Fund, which in he years would set us all right, and not lessthan 30 per cent. upon the total capital of which, if necessary, might be extended. I France ; and expressed his intention, if it should fall Mr. WHITBREAD regretted that the colleagues . to his lot to propose the Supplies, to make some pro. of the Chancellor of the Exchequer had not been position for the support of public credit. present, that they might have heard the important ! Mr. WHITBREAD deprecated the introdu c ti on views which had that night been given of the state into England of any tax which had been adopted in of the Finances. What had become of the Vice- Holland, since the conduct of the French Govern. President of the Board of Trade, and the rest, who meet, since they had entered that country, he did not had always vaunted so loudly of the prosperous state think very worthy of imitation here. of the country, especially in the year 1810, which After some explanations between Mr. VANSITTAIITs had been one of the worst years that this country Sir T. Tuneon, and Mr. COURTNEY, Sir T. Turton's had experienced—a year of feverish activity, and Resolutions were severally put and negatived by the hollow speculation —the symptom of decline, and previous question. The Resolution reg a rdi ng P eace . .__ - - not the source of prosperity. The result of all, - however, was, that we could not go on under the present system ; but an Honourable Gentleman over the way had consoled the 'House by stating, that, at 'the end. of 15 years, a considerable fund would be at our disposal ; admitting, however, that it was not to be touched till the ead - of these fifteis years, and sot prevauus quesnun. ane BLesonuton regarding Peace was likewisenegatived, after a slight amendment, that • it might not appear even upon the Journals In its ori- ginal shape. The Gallery was cleared upon it. but.- it did not take place. Sir FRANCIS BURDETT vile sodas. doe iw would move as ele taw MOW &in* " SIM" d r . COVRtryir.4dinigliell Tsassr.