Star. — London, England, 1820-06-10 00:00:00

I • . . • •. . -.• 1 • • PARLIAMENTARY PROCEEDINGS. lIOUSF. OF LORDS, JUNE 9. After the judicial business of the day was disposed of, their Lordships aljourned during pleasure. About five o'clock the House resumed ; when The PI intation Duties Drawback, the Transfer Grants, and the Irish Tenements Recovery Bills, were brought up from tht Commons by Sir Jamas GILIIIAM. and others, and read the first/time. _ _ Some private or fecal Bills were brought up by Mr. BLacc- WAN, 741 r. Prxe, Eccirrox, and other Members. A variety of Documents relative to the subject of Foreign Trade, Duties, and Drawbacks thereon, &c. were presented at the liar, by Mr. LACK, of the Custom-llouse, pursuant to a re cent order of their Lordships. Tile Amnia Order was ifiade for the appointment of the Commissioners (oh the part of that 'louse) for the trial of of fences cfunini:ted in the East Indira. Lord 11OLLAN 1) rose, to give notice, he said, of his inten tion, on Monday next, to present a Bill for the adoption of their Lordships. 'lle object would be to Repeal the Act of the 12th of George 11 I. which is generally denominated the !loyal Mar riage Act. It would be irregular on this occasion for him to state his retsosia why such a measure should be adopted, but he hoped their Lordships would allow him fully so to do when be brought in the Bill. lie was induced to name so early a day, because, exclusively of the general reasons which must forcibly struck him, to think such an Act should be expunged from the Statute Book, he conceived it possible that in the interval, with reference to the present unfortunate situation of certain mem bers of the Royal Family, some persons better qualified than himself might suggest some measure of a legislative nature, but divested of all penal character, which may apply to the case. If such appeared practicable, it may supersede the necessity of their Lordships Committee sitting on Tuesday next. And far ther, in the view he took of the subject, such a measure as he pointed at would relieve both the Illustrious Persons from the unfortunate situation in which they were so long placed, and it would do so without inducing the . least disparagement of the characters of either of the parties. The measure of which he had given notice of his intention to submit, he should, if health and voice were continad to him, bring before their Lordships on Monday ; but if anything should occur to render the mea sure less pressing upon the consideration of the Meuse, be thought it would be more becoming to postpone it to a later day. In his own individual conviction he then came forward, because he thought such a measure would be productive of much good. At the saute time he thought it proper to state, that he came forward on the occasion without any concert or communication with any person, and above all, with any person in any way con nected with the Illustrious Parties, or who bad the honour of enjoying their confidence. The Noble Lord's Notice stands, conditionally, for Monday; to which day their Lordships, after forwarding the Bills upon the table, adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS. The Gallery was 0p..-ned at two o'clock for the admission of strangers, and was instantly filled. The Order for taking th'e Petition into consideration against * return for Drogheda, was discharged in consequence of the Petitioners not having entered into their recognizances. An account of the number of Pleas entered in the Sheriff's Courts in Wales, for the last nine years, was ordered. The same account for the County of Vlonniouth was ordered. The St. Dunstan's Tythe Bill was read the second time. Sir B. KNATCHBULL moved the second reading of the Kent Coal Meters' Bill. . _ Mr. CAu:a•Er and Mr. lleanoesr opposed the BilL A division took place on the second reading, when the num bers were—Ayes 25—Noes 14. The 1 1 / 4 11 was then read a second time. Sir M. W. RIDLEY pre3ented a Petition from Freeholders in the town of Newcastle-upon-Tyne, complaining that they were precluded from voting for Membtr3 to serve in Parliament for the County of Northumberland, or for Burgesses to serve in Euliament for Newcastle-upon-Tyne.—Laid on the table. Mr. K. Fl NLA Y wiled to know from his Honourable Friend opposite (31r. J. Smith), if it was his intention to sub mit immediately to the House any measure respecting the Bank- rapt Laws ? Mr. J. SMITH had no hesitation in stating, that it was his intention to pursue the subject, and to bring forward, at a pro per time, a Bill or Bills to amend those laws. He had reason to know, from the hrst law authority in the country (the Lord giancellor) that the measures which he (Mr. Smith), intended to introduce, would, in conjunction with certain orders of his Lordship, produce the utmost benefit, and he now waited the completion of those orders, which the Lord Chancellor was en gaged in preparing, to submit his measures to the House. THE QUEEN. Lord CASTLEREAGII moved, that the Order of the Day for resuming the debate on the King's Mes sage, respecting her Majesty, be now read, for the purpose of postponing it to Monday next—(Cheers). The Order of the Day was then read. Lord CASTLEREAGH said, in making that pro position to the House, he thought it right to state, that he made it in consequence of a communic a tion which had been received at - a late hour that day by the Earl of Liverpool—(Hear, hear).—As it had been received at so late an hour as to prevent an ad..' sorer from being given to it previous to his coming down to the House, he trusted that the House would see the necessity of not calling upon him to commu nicate to them the nature of it—(Hear, hear).—There had been no impression made upon his mind by the communication to which he alluded, that led him to alter the caution which he had.then given the House on this subject—Wear, La,)—that caution was, that they should not allow their minds to be biassed by the negotiations which were taking place, but should consider matters to stand in the same relative situation that they did before—(Hear, hear). Mr. BROUGUIAM concurred with the Noble Lord in the itnpert which he had given to his present motion—(Hear, hear).—lt was with a view to have matters kept for Monday in the same state as they were at present, or rather as they were on the last night of adjournment—(Hear, hear).—To be ex plicit, he wished Members to act as if everything was in that state—(lkar,hear).—He wished to add a few words regarding the delay which the Noble Lord seemed to insinuate to have taken place on his part. The Nuble Lord had said that certain propo sitions had not been received till so late an hour in the day, that it was impossible to answer them. He would inform him oi the reasons of that circum stance. The party from whom those propositions came—(hear, hear)—thought it most important not to begin a negociation, lest in beginning she should appear to be making improper concessions, espe cially also as the other party, who did not commence any negociation, stood in a situation not to be in. jured by making concessions —(Hear, hear).—The remonstrances of her legal advisers had, however, at a late hour in the day, overcome the reluctance which the Illustrious Individual in question felt to being the first to ncgociate—(Hear, hear)—and he, therefore, trusted that the Noble Lord would feel convinced that there ores no intention, either on his part, or on the part of his Honourable colleague, to take Ministers by surpi ise, in sending to the Noble Earl at a late hour in the day the communication which they had sent him—(Hear, hear). Lord CASTLEREAGH disclaimed any intention of imputing improper delay to 'the Honourable and Learn.( Gentleman, or his client. He had merely mentioned the lateness of the hour at which the pro position had been received, as a reason for the post ponesnea of the present question. As that proposal was still under -consideration, he did pot think it ne cessary to explain the reasons why some proposal had not originated from another quarter—(Hear, hear). Mr. BROUGHAM said, that in the delicate situa tion in which both the Noble Lord and himself were placed, a superfluous was better than an imperfect explanation. " Mr. C. W. WYNN observed, that one of the great advantages arising from the step which the House had taken on the night of the aijournment was this, that no one could suppose that the renewal of the negotiation, come from whatever party it might, was the result of any other feeling than a deference to the wishes of the House of Commons, re-echoed back to it as those wishes had been by every individual from, one end of the country to the other—( Loud cheer s ). The Order of the Day for taking the Papers alluded to into consideration was then postponed till Monday next ; immediately after which both the House and the Gallery were cleared of the greater part of those who had been in them. Lord J. RUSSELL reminded the Noble Lord, that the order for going into a Committee on tbe. Grampound Disfranchisement Bill stood for Monday next; and that he, should not be inclined to postpone it, without very strong reasons were adduced for that purpose. Mr. BROUGHAM expressed the strongest regret at being again under the necessity of postponing his motion on - the subject of the Education of the Poor, which stood for Thursday next, till the 20th instant. Unexpected circumstances, to which he need not allude, rendered this absolutely necessary. NAVY ESTIMATES. The House having resolved itself into a Com mittee of Supply, Sir G. WARIIENDER moved, that a sum of £1,980,566 be further granted to his Majesty, for the purpose of defraying the Ordinary Expenses of the Navy for the year 1820. Sir M. W. RIDLEY said, that among his other objections to the Estimates of the present year, he had to enter his usual protest against the continuance of two Junior Lords of the Admiralty, whom he had, on former occasions, shewn to be superfluous. He was sorry to find, on looking at the Establishment of the Victualling Office, that it was precisely on the same footing as it was in the year 1815. The same remark applied to the Navy Board, in which there was only an apparent, and not a real reduction. Sir GEORGE COCKBURN said, with regard to , the first point in the Honourable Baronet's speech, it would not be necessary to go into discussion. He explained that the situation in which the Clerks of' Captains of Ships were placed, resembling in some , respects that of a servant with his master, being re movable at his will, rendered it necessary that they should be allowed greater indulgences than in many other appointments ; it was to be remembered they had not, like Officers, half-pay attached to their retirement. Sir JOSEPH YORKE said, he was sorry to ob serve how weary the House seemed to be of that stale and impolitic subject of discussion—the expen diture of the public money ! People were allowed to chatter as much, and as long as they pleased on matters of this nature, without meeting with much attention from those for whose edification they were speaking. From what the Hon. Baronet who spoke last said, at least as he understood him through that haze Of noise which existed in the House, it appeared that the two Junior Lords of the Admiralty only cost the nation £3,000; but even this, he thought, was worth saving, if it was not required for indis pensable services —(Hear, hear).—With regard to the Superannuation and Pension List, that, in his opi nion, was far from being satisfactory. His. Hon. Friend near him (the Secretary to the Admiralty), l in one of his consolatory speeches, had told them that £lOO,OOO might be saved to the nation by what was styled, in modern language, " ceasing to existl" —(Laughter)—But the only worm which never died was, the public expense! The Right Hon. Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) always smiled at his observations ; but he could assure him, that unless he contrived, somehow, to lay up treasures for them in Heaven, they had no chance of enjoyment, as there appeared to be none for them on earth ! ( Hear, hear ! and laughter).—They were completely eat up with Superannuation and Pension Lists. By the system pursued respecting them we were doubling and quadrupling every office in the State!—( Hear). There were, for instance, two or three Lord Chancel lors to be seen walking about ;—there were three 07 four Extra Commissioners of the Victualling Board Aso; and many other instances of a similar kind.— Although he was a great advocate for economy, he could not approve fif the feeling which had dictated the laying down of the Dock-yard at Halifax : it produced but a trifling saving, and, in his opinion, was for a very ill-advised purpose—(Hear, hear). — The yard was situated in the midst of our greatest enemy—at least those who were capable of causing us the most trouble. They were civil enough at present, it was true. He did not know how far that state of things might be owing to the circumstance of there being no money in either of the Exchequers of the two countries!—( A laugh).—With regard to the amount of the saving, it was nothing when com pared to the expenses which a certain great building in this country (the Admiralty) required for keeping in repair alone—that cost three or four times as much—(Hear, hear).—Under the head of Gibraltar it would be found that there was a sum of £4,600 charged for the building • of a wharf in the water, for the protection of gun-batteries. This item would be found regularly at its post in the Navy Estimates since the year 1802 to the present time; but strange to say, the said wharf had never yet niadeits appear ance above water. With all due deference, he must be allowed to say, that he could not look upon it as any better than an absolute job—the money had plainly gone into the pockets of some one=-(Hear). —Now, that he had made an Opposition speech, he would, by way of amendment, say something on the other side of the question—(Laughter).—With regard Co Sheerness Yard, he would tell the Hon. Baronet (Sir M. W. Ridley) that the sum charged in these Estimates was totally distinct from that voted formerly for the constructing of basins, &c. and he had no doubt, as the affair was now in the good hands of an Hon. Friend of his, it would be cou ducted in a very exemplary manner. Whilst he was on this subject, he wished to make another remark. Ile was, the °tinr day, at Sheerness, when a thun dering order came down to diicharge forthwith all the navigttors employed in the Dock-yards! The House should be told, that a navigator signified a fellow who went about with a wheelbarrow and a l shovel in his hand !—(Laughter).—ln place of those navigators, 200 in number, were substituted an equal number of convicts, taken from the hulks in the River. It sounded, no doubt, very well, that we made this good and-salutary use of men whose lives were forfeited to the country—but let them look at the danger of it. By putting on the convicts, they drove 200 honest men out of employment, who, not knowing which way to turn themselves, or what to do for their maintenance, were naturally desirous to become convicts also ; and asked whether it were not possible for the Secretary of State to make them that privileged class of beings? He (Sir J. Yorke) might as well ask to be made into a Maid of Honour —(Loud lartihing).--,The question, however, of these poor men was not extraordinary, for the fact was, that rogues and felons were of late much better pro vided for in this country than honest industrious men ; for what a bustle bad we about the building . and improvement of jails and the construction of Penitentiaries; vet we had 1,500 convicts employed on our coast, who would "rader go.to Bolton-house Bay in de Vest Indis"—(A laugh.—Yet those con victs werestaken such peculiar care of, that if, upon being Liken out to work, a cloud appeared, one of Mr. Capper's men immediately exclaimed, "Bring them pack ; it is likely to rain."—EHere the Hon. Member happened, by a movement of his arm, to strike off the hat of a Member near him, to _whom he apolo gized, stating that a man was never attended to on subjects of this• nature, unless he spoke with vehe mence. He then sat down amidst tumultuous shouts of laughter.) Sir BYAM MARTIN said, that with respect to the employment of the convicts at. Sheerness, it was dictated by the best feelings and intentions. By the arrangement thus made, the convicts were kept from carrying on those mischievous pursuits and objects which, when left to themselves, contributed to con firm them in their bad practices and principles.— Since they had been employed on the works, they went back to their ships sufficiently fatigued to oblige them to go to bed rather than sit up and continue their bad practices. They were allowed 3d. a day for the work, being' half of the whole sum allowed them, the remainder being laid up to be given to them when they were discharged from the hulks, by which means a provision was formed for them, which obviated the evil of their being left without any means of subsistence, which was the inducement of so many to return to their former mode of life. - Mr. HUME compared the Estimates of the pre sent year with those of former periods. In 1818 the total amount of the Navy Estimates was £2,480,000; in 1819, £2,483,000 ; and in 1820 it was again £2,480,000. He did not therefore see where Was the diminution boasted of by the Honourable Baronet.— As he did not find th ere was any reduction on the gross amount, neither could he discern whether there was any on the minor charges. Men he looked at the Navy Pay Office, he was surprised to find there was so trifling a difference of expense in the Esta blishment, at a time when there was only six millions to pay, as when we had twenty-two millions to pay. I He thought a little more attention ought to have ' been paid to the Report of the Naval Committee than had been on this and every other branch of Naval expenditure. In the sixth year of peace, the House had aright to expect a much larger reduction. He asked whether the House would continue the Establishment on the same footing as when there were 145,000 men employed, now that there were only 23,000, including Marines ? The Report of the Committee he had alluded to, said, the whole world had only 169 ships of war—we had 594 sail of ships of war. He entfeated the House to consider whether the great expense was not disproportioned to the cir cumstances of the country ? and again enforced the necessity of economy. He then adverted to the -cost of alterations in the Yards, which amounted to £1,500,000; but expressed himself not certain that there were not sufficient reasons to be adduced in support of it. The economy he recommended was in the large establishments and high salaries, not in the subaltern departments. Sir BYAM MARTIN contended that a very con siderable reduction had taken place in the Navy ; 374 ships had been sold, and 160 broken up, making in all a reduction of 534 ships. In fact, it was sup posed that the reduction had been too hastily made. We had, however, a formidable and efficient fleet ready for any emergency. It was necessary that we should have such a fleet at all times and under any circumstances, however favourable to the continu ance of peace. It would surely be idle in us to dis mantle ships that were capable of service for three or four years. The Honourable Member on the other side ought to have formed his scale upon the years after the American war, and not upon those he had chosen, when events had taken place which must necessarily have occasioned a considerable increase of expenditure. He should himself take the years from 1782 to 1792, which he thought would be a more fair way of coming to a just conclusion.-- During that time the people worked in the Dock yard three hours a day extra, and the consequence was, that 75 sail of the line and 78 fiigates had been fitted out, a number never knows before. The Hon. Member then proceeded to state the estimate of ex- Ipense for building ships at that time, which was 1 E2,000,000, calculating the respective prices of dif ferent species of timber. Oak was thell €2.5 a ton, now it was £45 ; fir was then £2 a ton, now it was £7 ; so that the gross amount of expense for ship building was now doubled. Sixty-eight clerks had been discharged from the Navy Office, and the same, number from the Navy Pay Office. No reduction' could possibly take place in the number of Commis sioners, because they were essential to 'the constitu tion of the Naval Establishment. In fact, if the proper number were kept up, there ought to be two more in addition to those employed. The whole amount of saving in thele two offices was £38,000. Sir F. OMMANEY maintained, that so far from any reduction of seamen being necessary, the num ber had been already too much diminished. This tact must appear evident to any Honourable Member in the House, who was at all conversant with naval af fairs. He needed only to - visit any guard-ship in the service, when he should find that it could not supply as many men as would man a boat in an officer-like manner. He had numerous relative... onnect-rd with , • the service, Who could verify the thith of the snee- I meat he had given. Mt. TIERNEY and Sir ISAAC COFFIN rose at the ' same time, but the latter being in possession of the Chair, was allowed precedence. Sir ISAAC COFFIN would not detain the Com mittee at any length: He had but A short si e .ch to make, and it should be a Ministerial one.—(A taegh) 35 an Honourable Meinh?r on his side of the Howse had already made an Opposition speech—(.4 Itiughj. He thought that all the affairs of the Navy could not be better conducted than they ‘sere—(La tighter). My. TIERNEY was of opinion, that debating on Estimates of this nature, was doing little more than wasting the time of - the House, which might other wise be much better employed. He hoped that the honourable and gallant Admiral who professed to make an Opposition speech, would confirm that speech, by giving, upon the occasion, an Oppositior? vote!—(A laugh).—lle should, himself, not have risen in this instance, were it not for a Petition which haj, been put into his hands a month by two Ladies, the subject of which was connected with the Navy. The Petition was of a most distressing nature, and such as must affect the heart of every man who had the interest of humanity and the honour of his coun-; try at heart. The Ladies from whom it came, were the daughters of a Gentleman who had once lived in, affluent circumstances in Cornwall, where he had served the office of High Sheriff of the County. He had had nine children, seven sons and two daughtersi Six of the sons he educated for the Navy, and it so happened that they all died in that service. The other son, who had got into the Artillery, was now the only remaining hope of his a; icted sisters, to whose support he contributed out of the scanty amount of his pay. But it was the will of Pnovi- DENCE that he should also be taken away, and with him everything on earth that the two poor Ladies had to look to. They petitioned the Duke of York as the only resource that suggested itself, stating that they sought some provision as being the sisters of seven ofhcers wh9 had died in the service. This led to an inquiry into the nature of the service in which the brothers had been engaged, and after all manner of details had been gone through, it was found that the brothers who had been iii the Navy, had died of the fever and other diseases, while he who had served in the Artillery lost his life by some sudden coin plaint with which he was seized at Gibraltar. IThe Duke of York then, acting no doubt for the best in terests of the service, thought it his duty to refer the two poor Ladies to the Admiralty, all the bro thers except one having been in the Navy. But here they could obtain no relief, the Admiralty having no disposable fund *for the purpose.—(The Rip ht Hon. Gentleman then read a letter from Lord Melville, expressing his Lordship's regret that the Petitioners could not be assistet:, from the want of a specific fund, applicable to such cases].—The Petition had been sent to the Admiralty in 1816 ; and from drat time, till the day when the Petition had been put into his hand, the poor women were left to pine in the greatest poverty. Believing their cage to be de serving of the most prompt attention, he had lost no time in applying to an Honourable Gentleman oppo site, and to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, from both of whom he experienced the greatest willingness to take it into consideration. The Chancellor of the Exchequer evinced the most liberal conduct, for he immediately undertook to get - the names of the poor Ladies entered on the Civil List, so strongly did their afflicting case strike him. He (Mr. Tierney) hoped that the country would not suffer its favourite service, the Navy, to be injured, by neglecting those whose near relatives had fallen in it. He understood that difficulties had arisen in the Nairy in making provision for the sisters of nifficers, as was done in the Army at one time, but which he understood was not now the case in either service, both being on the same footing in this respect. The Right Hon. Gen tleman concluded by professing his readiness to sup port any measure that might be introduced for pro viding the Navy with a fund, to be applied only in cases where the parties were objects worthy pf relief. The CH.ANCELLOR - of the EXCHEQUER thought the observations of the Right Honourable Gentleman tended to effect a complete revolution in the system upon' which the affairs of the Navy were conducted, and which did not extend 'relief beyond the owu w egv i h f e e tr o t ‘o f r a t h bs e e a ld i n we d s ea i y y ns i d el u idb a . e l r . al '4' h l; e e bAe bon srt u mo wy r y e ad o n f wd the: Ne rea C v iryto was however, ad a Compassionate Fur*, and the contribution from that Fund, with the bouncy of the Crown, gave to the Ladies alluded to a pension of £5O a year. Sir MATTHEW WHITE RIDLEY moved, as an Amendment to the Resolution, ‘4 That a sum not ex ceeding £1,978,000 3s. 11d. be given for the purpose specified." The Amendment was negatived, and the original Resolution agreed to; as was also a Resolution for granting £1,591,480 for the building and re-build ing of ships, and for wear and tear in his Majesty's Dock-yards. ,Mr. Home, Sir G. WARRENDER, and Sir F. Oat- MANEY, made each a few observations upon this Re solution, with regard to the expense of the Trans. port Establishment at Cowes, in the Isle ef Wight, which Mr. Hume said ought to be abolished, there being one, already at Portsmouth; while the two latter Honourable Members defended it, as necessary. The next Resolution that passed was for granting a sum of 1:359,500 for provisions for troops on Fo reigA Stations. ti A Resolution was moved for granting £644,920. in support of the Transport Service. Sir JOSEPH YORKE Wished to know what haci been done with respect to the pension to Sir Robot Seppings, who had so well deserved it—whether*he had touched the cash or not?—(,4 laugh).—He had heard that same delay had occurred, in consequenc e of a representation made by Mr. Harrison, though that Gentleman had himself received £3,000 more than he was entitled to. Sir BYANI 3IARTIN bore testimony to the eni% near services of Sir Robert Seppings, which cook! not be too highly rewarded, as be had saved mil lions to the Navy, Another Honourable Minims spoke briefly to the same effect. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that-a communication had taken place on the subject between the First Lord of the• Admiralty and the Treasury Department, and that in consequence arrangement was made, which, he understood, v•• 15 I i . 3 I ti ti tl te of it sot tl A. ti t] CI he h of to bt re sil . ab Pr Lb, Cr, co en , so Zvi foe titi tin £1 the sue col be by be pia to bee sir 'of \ye, tit) vih sby dot cte at hi is leis • al