Star. — London, England, 1830-11-13 00:00:00

SPIRIT OF THE JOURNALS. CHIIOSICLE.—A very important question was asked last night by Mr. Gordon, " whether it was the intention of the Chancellor of the li:chequer, previous to entering upon the discussion respecting the Civil List, to lay before the House the detallsof the English Pension List!" The Chancellor of the Exchequer replied, " that the Honourable Gen. dollen must be aware that the details of the English PerseicaLtst sever were yicen." Mr. Hume, on this, reminded the Bight Honourebk lientleman, that when he had made a similar demand in 18211, it was objected to upon the ground that the details could not be brought for-' ward until there was a settlement of the Civil List. We have a strong prepossession against all pensions not voted on some specific ground. No man has a right to the public money who has not done the public service. Charity covereth a multitude of sins ; but to give away the property of others is not charity. We trust the day is not fie distant when the public money shall be applied only for services rendered to the HERALD.It will be seen that the King of Holland has declared the Belgian maritime provinces in a state of blockade, which is to be enforced with all the rigour that such generally-important, but always vexatious measures, are susceptible of. This policy nobody affects to understand, for the proceedings of this enlightened Mnarch have long gone beyond the reach of all rational comprehension.Tite only reason tha t can be assigned is, that his Majesty, intending, no doubt, to facilitate the settlement of Belgian differences by the great powers, a tribunal to which he has long been appealing, has now done the very thing tha t will give it the greatest embarrassn.ent, just in the same spirit that he revoked the powers granted to the Prince of Orange at the very moment that the Prince was likely to effect an accommedation. POST.--A fact most honourable to the memory of his late Majesty was stated by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. George IV. has been the first sovereign since the establishment of a civil list, who has left no debts chargeable upon it. Those of preceding sovereigns varied in amount from 500,0001. to a million. The more the nation learns of the character of his late Majesty, the more will it discover of those noble] qualities which most dignify and exalt the monarch and the man. Liberal to excess in charity, munificent in his patronage of the arts beyond any sovereign who preceded him, he never transgressed the means afforded him ; and the charge of extravagance so wantonly brought against him, is thus refuted to the fullest extent. Canonro.x.—Various reports and rumours—portentous signs_' continue in active circulation on the subject of the present singular mi nisterial crisis. Immediately after the close of the Premier's speech, on Tuesday se'nnight, a Noble Lord ( M—d—d) exclaimed to an Ex. Chancellor on the Woolsack, " him, I'll bet a hundred he has a Reform Bill in his pocket; recollect the Catholic Ruse." We will not attempt to estimate the chagrin of his Grace, when his gra tuitous and bed-ridden fulmination against reform was answered by radical speeches from Ultra•Toriea. A more abortive manteuvre was never planned. Some credulous persons affirm, that the Duke of Wellington is a real itemise ; and that the man whose nerves stood the assaults of the barbarians of the East and the armies of Eu rope, has fallen a sacrifice to the night-mare of the chief magistrate of the City. Events at home and abroad, equally unexpected, have greatly puzzled his Grace. We repeat, that he is well known to be sick of office, and " peradventure" a sense of " duty," and the difficulties of finding his successor, alone preserve his situation. The artillery of the boroughmongets is a machine he cannik manage ; he is cer t ain ill calculated by nature for that instrument, and to his credit be it spoken. Unquestionably the existence of the ministry is critical and precarious ; but those will be bold pilots who may take the helm from the sailor King. Tuesday next is looked to the Ides of March. To-day, it is said, another meeting takes place at Lord Ahhorp's.— The result is expected to determine the course of Tuesday, and speculation is busy. We confess we are too old to believe in the modern miracle of a House of Commons reforming itself without help from the people. Bur the war now waging between the boroughmongers and the people is becoming critical. Time will reveal the result. There never will be a "strong Administration" till the House of Commons is re stored to the people. The contest is one between the whale and his harpooners. Ever and anon the monster of the deep runs the length of his line, but pierced by fresh strokes, he grows weaker and weaker. The ' ' Aristocracy cannot maintain the contest very long; if they are wise they will not attempt to perpetuate their ascendancy. The Duke of Wel. lington cannot save them, nor can they save the Duke of Wellington. In the House of Commons the solitary situation of Sir Robert Peel is most pitiable; he is politically Moiled. IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, ;Now. 12. Their Lordships met at five o'clock. Lord TENTERDEN postponed the second reading of the four bills which he introduced for the reform of the law, to Thursday next, and moved that their lordships should be summoned for that day.— Agreed to. Lord DURHAM presented twenty-four petitions from the county and city of Durham, praying for the abolition of negro slavery. Petitions to the same effect were presented by Earl Spencer, from Northampton, Bolton, Leicester. Warwick, and several other places ; by the Marquis of Bute, from Oxford, and several other places ; by the Marquis of Anglesey, from Carnanon, and Holyhead ; by Lord Caw. doe from Milford in:Walea i • by the Bishop of Bath and Well s f rom Bath, Chard, and s evera l o ther place; by Lord Suffield from several places, to the same effect; by Lord Wharneliffe from Yo r k, She ffi eld, and several oth er pl aces in Yorkshire ; by the Marquis of Hastings from Feversham, and several other places. The Marquis of ANGLESEY presented a petition from the uncer tificated bankrupts confined in the Four Courts Illarshalses, Dublin, praying for an assimilation of the Bankrupt Laws; and a petition horn two parishes in Dublin, praying an alteration in the distribution of the funds of the Kildare-street Society. The Noble Marquis said that the original intention of the Kildare-street society was to allay civil feuds, but he regretted to say that it had since its establishment a very contrary effect, and had tended to increase those feuds, as the die. tribution of the money placed at the disposal of the Kildaroatreet sod. ety was not appropriated in the manner intended. (Hear.) It was ori ginally intended as a model school, but trom the principles upon which it was governed, the Roman Catholics were precluded from a participation of the advantages intended. It was originally meant that fuer days in the week should be occupied in the education of the chi]. then, and two in religious instruction by the pastors of the parish ; but from the arrangements introduced, it was impossible that the Roman Catholic children could avail themselves of the advanta ges int en d e d. Unless an equal distribution of the funds was committed to the care of influential persons of both sects, it would be advisable for government not to sanction another grant. In the session of 1828, when he was Loyd Lieutenant of Ireland, a grant of 26,000 L was vote d to t h e Society, whi c h sum was pla ced at his discretion. He then adopted every means to obtain information as to the state of the funds, and to his great surprise, he found that of the 25,0001. nominally placed in his hands, 15,000 L was anticipated, and the remaining 10,0001. was sp. propriated. He trusted that no more money would be granted, until an understanding took place between the two leading parties in Ireland. The Marquis of CLANRICARDE hoped that the subject would be attended to by Government. The report of the commissioners upon the subject contained information well worthy their consideration. The money granted t.: the Kildare-street Society was allocated with the greatest partiality, and to purposes not intended by the Igti He trusted that the gallant Secretary of State for Ireland would turn his at. nation to the subject, as be appeared, by the measures be was about to introduce fur the benefit of Ireland, most anxious to check any abuse in that country. The Marquis of LANSDOWN said that the Society, so fax from producing the effect originally contemplated, created abandon. Lord CARBERRY defended the Society. The Marquis of DOWNSHIRE took pains to make himself ac uinted with the principles of the Society, and considered it worthy of thew nfidence of Parliament. He said that no charge of misapplica tion of the funds could be proved. As the President of the Soele% he always r ecommended that a liberal distribution of the funds should be made. Earl DARNLEY thanked the noble marquis for bringing the sub. ject before the house; it was one of great importance. AGRICULTURAL DIBILIIZIL The Duke of RICHMOND rose to give the noble lord opte an epportunhy to explain th e communication be made to their thipa last night, respecting the st ate o f the pessantly in Heat and Sussex. lie (th e D u k e o f Richmond) contradicted the noble bed, but hi now admitted that he did not mean to say, that what the noble Iced had 'Med did not take place in some parishes. The noble duke refined to the letter which was the noble lord's authority for his statement, and it illpeared that the writer of it had addressed about thirty of the unem ployed peasants, who cried out for an increase of wages, and asked them If they did not ge t an i ncrease of wages, woo la they devil°, alele employers' property ? " They replied that they would protect Ike Pm" Percy of th e i r employers. They were then informed Brat if tatty pat' this observation on their petition, that their wages should be increased. The noble duke said that the people were not to be told that their wages should be increased by intimidation. (Hear, hear.) He regretted that the labourer was not sufficiently remunerated. Lord TEYNHAM would feel very sorry if any words of his should go out of that house calculated to berme excitement, or a spirit of dissatisfaction. He meant to say on the previous evening, that the far mers in Kent had deemed it prudent to raise the wages of labourers. It was quite impossible they would yield to intimidation. (Hear.) - - The Marquis of CAMDEN said that any attempt to make the farmers increase wages could not be sanctioned. The conduct pursued in Kent and Sussex was such that no man who thought right could approve of it. The profits of the farmer rendered him unable to in crease the wages of the labourers. Earl DARNLEY said that the wages in Kent were higher than in s oy other part of the country ; they were paid its. a.day. The &semis faction did not arise from low wages. but from the want of employment. The labourers must be aware that the attempt to compel the farmer to increase their wages, must at the saute time compel him to decrease the 'number of labourers in his employment, as the farmer's means and profits rendered him unable to lay out more money on his farms, con sequently any effort of this kind would ultimately tend to Inman the number of unemployed labourers. The House adjourned at six o'clock till Monday. NOUSE OF COMMONS, Nov. 12. Mr. Crafer, from the Treasury, brought up certain returns of the sa. lades and pensions enjoyed by perms from the Government under 1,0001. a-year. Ordered to be printed. An immense number of petitions for the abolition of colonial slavery were presented from all parts of the united kingdom. A petition from Hylton Jollifre, Esq. complaining of the undue re turn of Mr. Briscoe, the Sitting Member for Surrey, was presented, and ordered to be taken into consideration on the 14th of January. Col. DAVIES gave notice that he would, on the 2d of March next, move for a committee to give better effect to secondary punishments. Mr GUEST moved for returns of the quantities of iron imported and exported during the last year. Mr. LEADER presented a petition from the inhabitants of Athlone, in Ireland, for an account of the funds of the different corporations in that county, and of the application of those funds. More than a mil lion of persons, the hon. member said, were in a state of the greatest wretchedness; and although Government allowed these Corpora tions land of the annual value of 10,0001. yet not one shilling o t sum was applied to relieve the wants of the people. The hon. gentleman at the same time presented& petition from the same place for the extension of religions liberty to the Jews. Mr. O'CONNELL presented two petitions for the repeal of the Union,which stated that it was the opinion of the landlords and inhabi. tants of Kilmore, in the county of Wicklow, that there was no prospect I of Ireland being otherwise than a burden to this country. Mr. It. GRANT gave notice that he would, on the 23d inst. move for the extension of the clause in the Metropolitan Police Act, disqualify. ing policemen to vote at elections for Members of Parliament, to all police uificen throughout the kingdom. The ATTORNEY•GENERAL gave notice that he would, on Monday next, move for leave to bring in a short Bill to amend the Bill for the better Administration of Justice in England and Wales. Lord MORPETH presented a petition froni the inhabitants of Man cheater, praying for the abolition or for a serious reduction of the duties on newspapers, stamps, and advertisements, in order to destroy the mo nopoly that at present existed. While on his legs, he wished to ask his boo. Mend, the member for Dover, whether it was his Intention to bring forward any measure on the subject. Mr. THOMPSON replied in the affirmative, but said that his mea sure would take a more extensive view of the subject. Mr. GUEST moved for a return of the contract prices of flour, bread, butter, candles, &c. from the earliest period. Mr. BEN ETT presented a petition from the inhabitants of Wiltshire, for the reduction of taxation. TEE TAXES. Mr. It. GRANT wished to ask the right boo. gentleman opposite whether it was the intention of his majesty's government to bring forward any measure for the reduction of tazatkn. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that, at present, he was not prepared to give an answer to the question, although the ru mours afloat respecting the reluctance of ministers to reduce the taxa tion of the country were without foundation. Sir N. W. RIDLEY said that be had been encouraged to hope that the duty on sea-borne coals would have been r e mitt e d . H e was qu i te aware that these were times when no very groat reduction of taxation could be expeeted--(oh 1 oh I)--but he was not anxious to enter into a discussion of the subject; an be thought was, that hopes ought not to be held out by the government which could not be realised. There was, in his opinion, no subject more worthy of the attention of the r igh t hon. gentleman opposite than that which had for its object the eleva tio n of the condition of the lower classes. And he thought that if the duties were remitted on sea-borne coals, soap, and candles, and a property-tax laid on in their stead, that the poor would be essentially beneetted, and the burden would be trsnferred from them to the rich and powerful, who were best able to bear it. Mr. ROTHSAY said that In the last year the d u ty o n b eer an d l ea • ther had been remitted. The poor had felt the advantage of these boons, but he feared much that even should the duty on seaborne coals be re. moved, the poor would benefit little by the measure, owing to the mo nopoly that existed in the north. He thought that the only way in which the industrious classes could be served, would be by a remission of a portion of the assessed taxes. (Hear, hear.) Mr. TENNYSON hoped that the Government would take tba ear& est opportunity of informing the house of the manures they meant to adopt for the remission of taxation. Sir R. WILSON agreed that i► was a subject which ought to be brought forward by his Majesty's Ministers. He perfectly concurred in what had fallen from his hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle, with respect to the expedience and justice of lying on a property-tax. Mr. IL GORDON observed that the gallant and hon. member for I Southwark had been encouraging government to lay on a property tat. He could not agree to the adoption of any such measure, but he thought that if a portion of the &ranted taxes were taken of all would go on well ; he hoped his Majesty's ministers would give the country an as surance that itiwas their intention to relieve the people from a Consi derable portion of that taxation under which they at preum► groaned. Gen. GASCOYNE thought that the government ought to remit the duties on sea-borne coals, and other articles of consumption, in which the poor were materially concerned. Sir R. PEEL asked whether it would not be better for his gallant and hon. friend to move at once for a committee to inquire into the state of trade ? Mr. BENETT thought that it would be better that taxes should fall upon those who possessed property than upon the poor, who were unable to pay them. The hon. gentleman concluded by presenting a petition, praying that the fundholder rhould be obliged equally with the land. holder to contribute to the taxes. Mr. ELLIS moved for an account of all monies paid to and by the commissioner appointed for the reduction of the national debt, and of all annuities chargeable thereon. Mr. GORDON asked the right boa. gentleman opposite whether he would lay before the house an account of the English Pension List? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER► thought his hoe. friend must have been aware that no such list had ever been given. Mr. GRANT replied that he was aware of that. Other papers, never furnished before, had been laid before the house, and he could assign no good reason why the list be required should not. Mr. HUME said that, in 1828, be moved for a return of the English, Irish, and &etch pension list. He should now make a similar motion, and he thought the house ought not to proceed to a vote, until these returns should have been laid on the table. TEE CIVIL LIST. The SPEAKER read the order of the day, that the house do resolve itself into a committee of the whole house, to consider the stsbfeet of the civil list. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that as it bad I appeared to be the desire of that house that no decision should be come I to that night, he meant only to propose the usual resolution, and state the view which be had adopted with respect to the future civil list. To enable bon. members to obtain full and clear information on the subject, be had caused documents to be prepared. and laid on the table of that house, in order that any boo. member might refer to them if he thought proper. The SPZAIML then left the chair, and the house accordingly resolved itself into a committee. The CH ANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that he rase, in pursuance of the notice he had given, with the full assurance that the house would cheafully give to his Majesty a provision adequate to the civil government of the country, and suitable to his honour, crown, and dignity. If ever there was an occasion when a proposition was brought forward which could dispense with any recommendation from the pee -1 poser, that was the occasion, as be was ernident that there was not am I bon. member in that Hona—cu, indeed, a; man in the country—who would not willingly end cordially do ell in hie power to support the dignity of the Crown. The people of England were naturally attsched to Monarchy, and it would therefore:be their glary to maintain die dig nity and splendour of the Crown in a manner becoming the rank which this country held among European mations. (Hass.) This was his feel ing, and be consequately fah smeared of the snenissons esneeranes of the House in making tub a provision far hie Majesty as the eiresanstanas of the case would require. In what be meant to propose, be was fully prepared for the meet rigid sod critical esainination. Os the one band be might be amused of a want of enflame libadiq ; sad, on the other, perhaps it would be alleged against him that he had adopted a too ri gorous system of economy. He wished however to steer, if possible, between the two extremes. He wished to avoid lavish prodigality, and at the same time keep clear of niggardly parsimony; but still be felt convinced that Lis course would receive the approbation of the House. In bringing forward this proposition, be felt that he stood in a situation of greater difficulty than ever be had been placed in during any former Session. The eitcumstat cos were novel to him. This was a measure incidental to a new reign, sod it was for a Monarch who ascended the throne with the respect, with the love of his people, for whose dignity and comfort they were called on to provide. (Hear, hear, hear.) Du ring the whole of the last reign, no claim had been made on that house for any 'provision for the liquidation of debts incurred by the Crown beyond the allowance granted in the Civil List; and it would be satis factory to the house to learn that no debt whatever had been contracted by the Crown since last they Suet. This was not the case in former reigns; for, in the reign of Queen Anne, 500,0001. were applied for. In the reign of Geo. I. Parliament granted 1,000,0001. and in that of Geo. I I. 500,0001. But the rum granted for the debts of the Crown over and beyond the Civil List allowance during the reign of George 111. amounted to between 3,000,0001. and 4,000,0001. The late reign closed, however, without leaving behind it any debt, and this was cre ditable not only to those who bad the arrangement of the late Civil List, but to the liberality of Parliament who granted it. (Hear, hear.) It was impossible not to give praise to the late King for his limited expenditure. ( Hem, hear, bear.) There was another peculiarity in the proposition which he was about to make, which he thought ought to call forth the approbation and insure the thanks of that house. A greater extent of revenue had been surrendered to the dis posal of parliament than at any former period : (hear, hear.) Not only did his majesty surrender 800,0001. per annum, but also the casual re venues and droits of the crown, which in all former reigns were left under the control and at the disposal of the crown. In making these surrenders of his rights, his majesty had not only met the wishes of his people in point of economy, but obviated all the objections which were started in former parliaments. By the proposition which he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) meant to propose, he wished to avoid the incurring any debt by the crown after the Civil List should have been arranged by Parliament : (hear, hear, hear.) The very name of debt. he thought, carried with it an imputation of mis conduct on the part of those by whom it was incurred. Itch ought not to exist; and in his judgment it would not be just of that house to make any arrangement which might probably lead to such a result. (Hear.) It would therefore be advisable to avoid any such consequence, that the crown should have a proper provision assigned to it ; (Hear.) and the question in the first place was, what amount would be nem sary for that purpose ? In forming an opinion on this point, it would be necessary to recur to the past, rather than to the future ; and in forming the new civil list, he should prefer taking past experience for his guide, rather than entering into any fresh calculations or estimates, mak ing however such changes and altetations as the varied circumstances of the crown might render expedient. From the papers on the table, the house would learn the total amount which had been granted by the civil list to his late Majesty. By the civil list which was voted at the com mencement of the reign of the late King, his Majesty had a specific al. lowanee of 800,0001. a year for England, 270,0001. foe Ireland. besides 109,0001. of the hereditary revenues of Scotland, which his late Ma. jesty was allowed to apply to the civil service of that country. His late Majesty was also left the droits of Admiralty, which amounted to a further sum of 32,8001. and all these his present Majesty surrendered. From the new civil list there would, therefore, be a deduction of 166,0001. as compared with that of the former reign, on which it was founded. The amount of the Civil List which he proposed by his re solution, would not be for different parts, but for the whole of the united kingdom. He meant to assign particular classes to particular parts, so as to render the whole clear and intelligible. The total amount of the present Civil List, instead of being 970,0001.w0u1d not exceed 884,0001. As the Civil List would now comprise an allowance both to the King and Queen, the consolidated fund would be remitted, a sum of 26,0001 the sum allowed to his present Majesty when Duke of Clarence, and a saving to that effect would be made to the country. Other swings to the amount of 15,0001. and 119,0001. would also be made by a system of retrenchment which had been adopted, but which bad as yet produced no benefit to the country; he alluded to the ar nutgensect which the government had entered into not to fill up certain public offices on their becoming vacant. A further reduction of 10,0001 would be effected in the Irish Pension List. The whole saving, as he bad said before, would be 181,0001. This did note resent a fair picture of ;h a expenditure of the civil list. In the present case, his Majesty was blessed with a Queen, who shared the respect and love which was borne towards his Majesty, and the house could not withhold from her Majesty the allowance usually made to the Queens of England, which during tbersigns of Geo. I. and 11. was 50,0001. per ann.Having a Queeu, the King, like all married men, had additional expenses on his establish ment, end that was a circumstance which ought not to be forgotten ; he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) knew not how to estimate a sum for this purpose; but in the 970,0001 was contained all that was deemed necessary both for King and Queen ; in former civil lists no provision was made for pensioning the old servants of the deceased monarch, and that Ineumbrance consequently fell upon the consolidated fund. On the demise of George the Third, the pensions allowed to old servants amounted to 91,0001. and a further sum of 19,0001. was granted for the same purpose after the death of his Queen. No such claim was now intended to be made, his Majesty having undertaken to compensate such of his royal brother's servants as he had not taken into bis own establish.. ment out of the allowance made to him by the civil list. Such were the pecuniary savings to the country intended to be effected by the new civil list; and it now became his duty to advert to the new dill list establishment. There were a variety of opinions on this subject, and some were for separating the private from the public expenditure of the King. It might, however, be difficult to draw the precise line of de. marcation ; but for his (the Chancellor of the Exchequer s) part, be could not see the advantage of such a separation. In order to avoid one I class of objections, he had removed from the present civil list the salaries of those officers who had been paid partly out of the civil list, and partly out of other fund*, so that the present civil list would present the actual amount to which payments were made. The salaries of the judges and I other officers of the government, including the speaker of that house, had been transferred in that manner. This was the arrangement which he had to submit to the house, and, in order that they might be clear and intelligible, he had classified each department of the public expenditure. The civil list was intended to comprise ten classes. The first referred to his Majesty's privy purse, which, instead of 80,0001. was 110,0001. The second related to the sa laries of the Gentlemen Pensioners and other officers attached to the household, the amount of which was 140,6461. The third comprehended the household expenditure, and that was estimated at 210,6001. The fourth referred to the Royal charities and other special purposes, and amounted to 23,2001. The fifth applied to certain pensions upon the Civil List, which, by Mr. Bible's act, were 74,2001. The sixth em braced the expenditure of Foreign Ministers, both Ambassadors and Consuls, and would be covered by 1.400,0001. although the expenditure of the last year was 1,660,0001 which proved the disposition on the part of government to bring down every branch of the public expenditure as low as possible. The only instances in which the salaries of Ambassadors had not been reduced, were those stationed at Paris and St. Petersburgh. It was also intended to reduce the outfit hum 7,8001 to 0001 and make a deduction ham the salaries when the parties were absent on pri. Tate business. The diplomatic expenditure would be brought intoner. rower limits, as it was proposed that, in fhture, Parliament should pro vide for the consular establishment, which created an expense of 30,0001. The seventh class comprised the hereditary revenues, which had always been placed at the disposal of the crown, and which amounted to 137,0001. The eighth included the salaries of the Lord Chancellor and other high officers of state, forming a sum of 54,0001. The ninth em. braced the civil list of Ireland, which was reduced him 270,0001. to 145,0001. and on which a further reduction of from 40,0001. to 00,0001. was proposed to be made; and the tenth refined to Scotland, with respect to the 515,0001. allowed, for which no possible objection meld be made. It must be quite obvious that, in eabmitting these emboss to the Ileum, it would also be nuareary to provide for fauna coadegmdee, and that was the rumen that asum bad been retained over awl above the actual amount of the Civil List, for answering such coethipschs. The surrenders made by his Majesty would account for his (the Cyan• cellor of the Exchequer's) asking such ac additional vote. Although the present Civil List provided for charges to the amount of 100,0001. more than the former, yet it was 161,001. less in the total amount. Having thus laid a statement of his plans before the House, he would sit down with the full cooviedon de his mind, that such an arrangement would be made as would be satisfactory, not only to his Majesty but the public, as there was no disposition either in that House or eisewher:, to withhold from his Majesty that allowance which was nectalory to up. hold the splendour and dignity of the Crown. Lord ALTHORP said that it would not be necessary—indeed, it would be impossible—far him to follow the right hon. gentleman through the details of his statement; and he thought that a, elect corn. mine, ought to be appointed to go through these details, as a cam. miller of the whole house would never be able to undtrsrand them. The difficulties had been inmost ten.fold by the manner in which the accounts had been confused. The house, by agreeing to this r"olutian, would appear to be giving 960,0001. to the crown ; whereas, in ro'nt of fact, the greater part of that sum properly belonged to the pui.lic ex. penditure ; and it was not, in his opinion, adding either to the dignity or commit of his majesty, to render him an 'gent to pay away the pub. Ile money. (Hear, hear.) The proposition of the right hon. gentleman, instead of improving or clearing the statement of the accounts, only rendered them the more perplexed and confused. Sir H. PAKNELL said that it was a great fallacy to suppose that any saving had been made because the amount of the present was less than that of the former Civil List. The former Civil List, it would be recollected, was founded upon an estimate made in 1815. It was, be though; impossible that the house could come to any vote without a full enquiry by a select committee, and he hoped the right hon. gentle man would not object to that course. The confusion and mixing toge ther of that which related to his Majesty in his private and public capa cities, was perfectly disgraceful. Mr. HUME said that the statement which they had heard only in. creased the perplexity. It was fitting that the house should vote to his majesty a sum that would ensure his majesty's dignity and comfort, (hear, hear t) but he (Mr. Hume) thought that the right bon. gentleman had not adopted the proper course in bringing forward his proposition. by founding it upon the report of the committee of 1815, as that and two former reports, made in 1803 and 1812, expressed a regret that the expenses of the crown should have been increased. As regarded the 4 per Cents. there was no concession at all. The hon. member went over the various deductions me& in the Civil List, and said that the house were to perceive from this List that only 24,0001. were given up by the government. The expense of the Civil List was more for the support of the aristocracy than foe the necessary keeping up the establishment of his majesty, vs the dignity of the crown. What had the payment of pen sions to do with the Civil List ? and why were they made to form a por tion of the list ? A large portion of these pendent were at pleasure. He should wish a committee to sit to consider these pensions, scarcely one of which were foe public services. Peers, peeresses, and peers' sons were pensioned for the purposes of that house. The time was come when such things should no longer exist : the people wanted a cheap government, and they ought to get it. The constable of Dover Castle was. according to this paper, to get 24,0001. and odd per annum. Why, he would ask, should be get so much money for such a situation ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER explained that the Duke of Wellington, who was constable of the Castle in question, had given up the sum alluded to. (Hear.) Mr. HUMEs Then there is the Mast r of the Hors. Gen only knew who be was ! (A Member : I know him) (a laugh.) The paper which he had in his hand was so full of items, that it strongly reminded him of a tailor's bill. Of the 1,120.0001. voted foe the Civil List of 1820, only 413,0001. was appropriated for the purpose of his Majesty. It was most necessary therefore that these matters should come under the eon 'lactation of a Committee, to see bow far the list in question was Olt was not a fit mattes to be curtailed. He should certainly vote for a Select Committee on the subject. Mr. BROUGHAM agreed with his Noble Friend that the Civil List was a fit subject to be enquired into by a Select committee, and precisely on the grounds suggested by his hen. friend (the member for Middlesex. in 1820 be proposed that such a course should be adopted with respect to the civil list as was now suggested. Was it not a strange thing, be asked, that in this great trading nation, where every merchant felt the great necessity and vast importance of keeping his accounts in the most intelligible and dearest possible manner melee suffer the consequence of his neglect; was it not strange, be said, that in such a nation, that in our public offices, where every thing ought to be plain, intelligible, clear, and satisfactory, that they Nid every thing complex, unintelligible, mystified, and most un satisfactory ? (hear, bear, and laughter). And this too when millions weredue, and the interest upon that debt amounted to millions. It was, as they all knew more important that millions should be better accounted fee than units: this the Chancellor of the Exchequer himself knew. (Loud laughter.) It was Elide towards his Majesty to charge him with expending three or tow times more than be really did. What was the complaint out it deem ? Why, that our King cost us 1,120,0001. while the Praline of the United States only cost his country 25,000 dollars, se W. sterling. (Hear, hear.) Now, was it not most unjust Mesta Ids Majesty to let this go forth to the public ? Why should he be charged, as by the civil list be was, with being an expense to the country of 1,120,0001. when, in point of fact, the actual expense of his Majsty's household hardly exceeded 400,0001. (Hear, hear.) Milton expressed himself its favour of a re publican form of government, because he said the trappings of a Mo narchy would Stout a Republic. Now all those things that were serted in the Civil List, which had, in truth, no real connection with It, were the trappings of which he (Mr. Brougham) complained. Why were not those things taken away ? Why should they be attached to a place to which they did not belong? It was unjust, unwise, and impo. lithe, in a limited Monarchy to continue those things. Their conti nuance might lead to the worst results. One word upon the saving to the nation effected by the plan laid before the House, with respect to which he must say he felt great disappointment. For instsoce, why, he would ask, was the annual income of the Duke of Clarence, which fell in as a matter of course, up= his secession to the Throne, to be taken credit for by the government, and laid before the House as one of the items. ' Now the speech, which, by the way, appeared to be intended to mislead rather than guide the nation, as to what was really intended by the government; who, be would ask, could ever read the King's speech, and not suppose that when his Majesty was giving up his " he. reditary and amid revenues without reserve," that he intended to give lup the revenues accruing to him from the Duchies of Cornwall and Lancaster? And yet, as it appeared from the right hon. gentleman's speech, his Majesty intended no such thing. (Hear.) His boa. sad learned friend, the attorney gams', might, to be sure, tell him, that these revenues were not hereditary. ( Hear.) "Hear," says some one; no I l doubt a lawyer. (laughter.) But they weft revenues accruing to the Crown, and as such, he did consider that they were to be given up. But it was either owing to the grossly ignorant manner in which the King's Speech was drawn up, or the gross ignorance of those who heard it, that such a mistake as this to which he had alluded had arisen. The King's Speech had produced not only dissatisfaction, but indignation all over the country, and he could appeal to any County Member if suck was not the fact • and under the circumstances, he begged to say that he hailed with ' satisfaction the proposition tha t he understood was to be made by his noble friend, or his right hon. friend (Sir H. Parnell :) he did not know which it was, who Intended to make it, namely, to retry the whole of the Civil List to a Select Committee. Sir R. PEEL rase to reply. ( Mr. Brougham at the moment was about to lave the house. The right honourable baronet begged the honourable gentleman would not have the house; just at that moment. Mr. B. resumed his seat.) He did not ask the honourable and leart.al gentleman to resume his seat, for the purpose of bearing what he had to say in reply to the charge of ignorance, attributed to his aujery's go. vernment ; but as he (Sir R. Peel) was about to bring a charge of ig norance against the honourable and learned gentleman, he did set wish to do so in his absence. The honourable and learned gentleman at. taibuted :pose ignorance to his majesty's government with re-rot to the King's speech, and particularly that part of it relating to the king's giving up his hereditary and casual revenues, thus aggravating the Public discontent by false statement. Now, what was the language of King George the 4th to Parliament upon his accession to the throne? Why, that he would relinquish all the hereditary revenues to which he was entitled. But did King George the 4th, or Change the 3d, who said the same thing, give up the revenues accruing from the Duchies of Cornwall and Lancaster ? Certainly not : (hear. bear.) He therefore placed the charge of ignorance u po n the hoe. and learned gentleman, and not upon the government of the country. Mr. BROUGHAM observed across the table, that he really believed, from the speech, that his majesty was to give up all his revenues. Sir R. PRIM did not me how such an inference could be drawn, when tonnes King's spathes were recollected. With respect to the proposition fora select committee, he should reserve whatever he had so say on this subject till the matter came properly before the house. But, in passing, he would remark, that if the Holm of Commons agreed to 1 1 adopt the proposed course. and examine into envy item connected with his Majesty's household. it would be adopting a most extraordinary and unusual mum and one that was not calculated w abases Um dignity or honour of the crown. (Hear, hear.) The cam adopted b Govern ment upon this occasion was that which was usual upon a of the kind. He saw nothing complex and inesagrwoes about the aschants furnished. to the house. He dii not sec the improriety misiai up ankles expenditure for the crown and Wow far the omit* of the crown. With respect to maims anartalaml ant of dome, be begged to say that Its wail not kelp Wow Gimp t but nee. thing could he wan wisegwated thee those otaameenee. Look lbw in. gawk at a Istise in which the latifais of lime lea said to tooth* a year he. floremmims trim the fiat trai that that Nobleman did not twain a single Wide; free the eemitey. Great weight was attethed to the imam in miteties, eat he mindtted the etetwonne it otatebeed palmed moth odie. deo In the counay. Het ite read ehmemer Milt be takes him what be W jut stated. I I