Star. — London, England, 1812-06-16 00:00:00

PARLI4M.ENT.IRr PROCEEDINGS. they were only so when granted to persons without desert ;—when given for public service, they were subjects'ot respect, not of odium. Mr. GOOCH opposed the Bill. Mr. BROWN approved 9f it, as evincing a desire on the part of the House to economise the resources of the country. The Hon. Member was then pro ceeding to object to an office mentioned in the sche dule, relating to the King's Advocate in the West.; India Islands, but was informed by Mr . . Bankes that it was omitted. 1 Mr. COURTENAY objected to the abolishing the offices in the Civil List and Hereditary Revenue. He had been told, that these offices might be inter- ; fered with without the consent of the King ;—but, 1 on consulting the Journals of the House, he found it ' otherwise. Mr. MARTEN (of Galway) while he applauded the industry of the Hon. Framer, disapproved of the principle and detail of the Bill. The preamble, he i said, which professed that public men should be pen- ! sioned for public services, went to Cadge them, as HOUSE OF COMMONS. much as the poor of any parish were badged. Mr. CROKER brought in the Marine Pay Bill, which was Lord COCHRANE said, that as a guardian of I read a first dine, and ordered to be read a second time on Thur.- the public purse, he felt it his duty To move an 1 day next. 1 amendment, in the proper stage of the Bill, for -the Mr. ROSE brought up an Account of Ships cleared out from Liverpool to Africa, .iron 1804 10 . 1811. purpose of placing immediately in the hands of the i Mr. ROSE moved, that to-morrow the House g o into a cons- Crown it fund for the reward of meritorious services. I educe oa the subject of the trade to the Bahama Islands : also instead of waiting for Cut time expressed in the Bill. ! oa the West.lndia Licenses.--Ordered He strongly objected to sinecure places, conceiving A Bill iii.posing an additional duty on Copper, was read a fi rst . time, and ordered to be read a second tin., to morrow. them the bonds which knit parties together in that lite Poor Relict Bib was read a third time and passed. House, and that they biassed materially the votes of Mr. WHARTON obtained leave to bone in a hill to prevent Members of Parliament. Although the amount of the making ef Starch from Grain. those sinecure places might be trifling when compar. Leave was likewise given to Mr. WHARTON'to bring in a , 1 e with the gross amount of the taxes, yet they were Bib to transfer the Scotch Excise Charity Fund to the Lonsoli- s' dated Fund. not trifling with respect to their influence in that Lord JOCELYN signified, that the Prince Regent had directed House. He must also state, that he thought that to be laid before the House, the Copy of the Memorial ot the the amount of the pensions expressed in the Bill House of Assembly in Jamaica—the Report of the Commissioners were too high, and that £2090 per annum would be ot Queen Anne's Bounty—and the Pa k ers relative toWaiter Hall; convicted of murder. , sufficient in many of the cases where £3OOO was 'I be hi-e ;atoms. Bill was read a third time and passed. assigned. The General lncloaure bill went through a Committee of the Mr. BARING had a strong objection to one of House. krport was ordered to be received to-morrow. the clauses of the Bill, as unconstitutional ; and he Mr. Hotta ER moved that the bib be printed, as one of great pubhc importance. ordered. was surprised that theEill had gone so far in its pro- The order of the day for the third reading of the gress, without any notice having been taken of it.-- Sinechre Bill being read, The clause which he objected to was that which pro. Mr. DUNDAS observed, that after what had pas- vided " that upon the falling in of certain places in sett in the House on this subject, he was afraid he was the Courts of Justice, the Crown should be enabled addressing an unwilling audience, but he must do his to distribute the amount of the fees belonging to duty. '1 he Bill went to destroy those offices in Scut- them, among the Judges, as it should think proper." land which were guaranteed by the Act of Union.— This appeared to him • unconstitutional, as striking He asked, was it prudent to gife cause of irritation directly at the independence of Judges on the execu itt Scotland, and disturb the Union for the sake of tive power. The amendment which he should pro. what—of twice 02,500 a-year ? The pensions pro- pose was, by adding the words "in the proportion posed to be substituted were more expensive. It was of their respective salaries." This would appear to said that sinecures were blown upon by the public, him much better than the allowing the Crown to and were exceedingly odious, and ought therefore Ito make distribution as it thought fit. longer to exist : but were pensions at all more popu- Lord BINNING was of opinion that the perpetual lar ? -Sinecures were offices counected a i:b Royalty, consolidation of the Scotch places, in the manner and were things that a man Knight be proud to hold. proposed by the bill, would be a violation of the un- Pensions were things to which a mail's poverty, but derstanding which existed at the time of the Union, oat his wid, would consent. He begged the House although he would not go so far as the Lord ittIVO• to consider, whether it WAS consistent with their dig- sate, in supposing that all Scotland would come for. nity to destroy these officei, which even Mr. Burke I ward to petition for the continuance of those sine. had spared. cures as their undoubted right. Mr. W. FITZGERALD did not mean, in this Mr. BANKES rose to reply to the objections stage, to oppose the piinciple of the Bill, but thought which had been made. As to the objection of his it was not likely to be very beneficial in puha of eco. Hon. Friend (Mr. Baling) with respect to the aug. nomy. The honourable Mover would, of course, mentation of the Judges' gaieties, it had before struck be willing that his Bill should have sas few imperfee- him, but he did not see any easy way of remedying tions as possible. He would point out one error.— I it. If, however, other Gentlemen felt it in the same The Constable of Limerick, which was mentioned in Ilight as it had appeared to that Hon. Gentleman, he the Bill, was, he believed, an office with merely a no- would not object to the amendment proposed. Tli• annul salary, and therefore not reconcileable with difficulty which appeared to him was this, that if a the purl:Wises of the proposed enactment. As to the very valuable part of the patronage of the Chief several offices in the.k'ermit office, steps were already Justices was taken away, it woull be the same as a taken to regulate them, and the proper remedies had considerable diminution of their salaries. Now, the., been applied. He thought the last clause of the Bill apportionment of the fees of the places which at pre objectionable, as it went to sweep away the Act of . sent were under the patronage of the Chief Justices Parliament made at the Union, wnich allowed the li- only, and giving part of them to the other Judges, sited grant of £BO,OOO per annum in pensions ; he would be a diminution of the profits of the situation thought it unwise, and a breach of faith to legislate of Chief Justice.' It appeared to him, that that high now in despite and violation of that Act. - • situation was rather under-paid than over-paid.— Lord CASTLEREAGII, though he'disapproved There was no description of services that he thought Of the Bill, did not intend to take the sense of the ought to be better paid ; and it appeared to him, that House upon it. The Honourable Mover had justly in the present times it was impossible to preserve the • allowed, that no great pecuniary relief to the circuits- ' high character and dignity ot the situation without. stances of the xiituttry could be expected from it; but annexing adequate emolument to it. As to the ob it was on constitutional greuud tleit he (Lord Castle.; jection Made by an Hen. Gentleman (Mr. Martin), reaglO'chiefly founded (ifs disapprobation; it went, he thought that it was sufficiently answered by the in sib opinion, to abridge and controul too much the i preamble of the hill. That preamble, which stated, power of the King to confer favours and reward , star- "Whereas it is no-disparagement to persons who have vices. In a Bid of such magnitude th ere mum be a I served in the country in high situations, to receive, If ouniber of technical errors, which, if the Bill palsied 1 they should need it, honorary reavards and pensions in this Session, might lead to ddficultles to be amen d ed .1 1 consideration of their services," was copied from that b sub uent acts of Parliament—difficulties of Mr. Burke's bill. It, therefore, had appeared to y seq others, as well as himself, that this could be no de. could be avoided latt pos:poningthe Bill till next Sea-, gradation. At the same time, he thought that per. son. Notwit:lstanoing this, and his strong objecti on ' sons of affluence, who had filled high situations, to the principle of the measure, he would i not divid i e ' should be satisfied with the emoluments of them while the House. Mr. FONSONBY said, he must object to the last they held them, and ought not to be farther charge-: able to the country for pensions on liccount of those clause. lu 1.793, a composition had been entered' services. With respect to the Scotch sinecure places, into•between the English and Irish Governments to 1 it had been put to him by an Hon. Gentleman, whe allow the King the limited grant of £BO,OOO in pen - I his . thee, if there was any doubt or balance on mind storm He Was an humble party to that compa ct, ' * whether it was not a violation of thesaAct of Union,' and thouglafit binding . on him I self, as long as the would he persist in recommending it ? To this lid King lived. No principle could be more dangerous must answer, that there was no doubt or balance cha 4 than that when a compoeition had been made, bene his mind upon the subject, and therefore, he coul d ficiA to the public, it should be broken on the pros- not con sent to take away from his Bill those great pect of greater advantage. This was as bad as the and glar ing sinecures. As to the Irish Sinecures and charge, talseiy imputed to certain people, of keeping Pension Li st, and the bargain that was stated to have ao 'aids with heretics. ta ken 1793, place in he must say that lie could see Mr. W. POLE had strong objections to the prin. nothin g . like bargain in the Irish Act of Parliamept , ciple of the Bill, and especially to the laat clause :he regulating the Pension List. He had moved for an stated that the 412.00 a year pension was loy no . account mere l y on h ear i ng i t state d, t h at t h ere was theins adequate to the charitias thigh the 'C town a • bargain - and by that account he found that one Was talked upon to exercise t owards Widows of O f i- class of ' payments, which the Act of Parliament had cer%,Cergyinen, and Judges. expressly required to be made out of the Kish Pei:- a - 'Sir JOHN NEWPORT, in reply to the la st ob. sion List, was never, in fact, it.ade out of it. He stn., dot, said, he wai afraid that the Honourable would then put it to the House generally, whether a Centleni-in contounded the Compassitinate L ist with Pension List of £BO,OOO per annum was not much the Pen-foal Li4,-; kOr out ot the Jel'auU a lie. ' whoall too great for Ireland to bear, when it was considered anainity had been grunted to Str him Sh o - r i tr ' . that a revenue could not be raised in Ireland at all had no'citims, that Le knew, on the scere of' it Was right.charity, equal to: the annual expenditure ? A' Right Hon. 111, to the compAtt spoken 01;t one Friend had asked him whether he did not know that VA' ot it should be adhered to as well a s t h e other. pensions *ere hot as obnoxious as sinecures ? He Now, sia the coat*/), the £lO,OOO which were- p k!:ew they were at present, when it was generally propriated te the falindin . gi of the castle f• - were contrary il s the styulations o f that lii; Dublin, s"pposed that pensions were not the reward of merits put or services, but 'given through mere .favouritism ; into the prita: -purse, and the public was called but when the time should come, that pensions were to supply the ima,y. The public, he thought, had • ' as cuuth-rigrit to complain 'as Ehe Crown. As to principle tir the Bill, he thought remuneration should o r.e f n . vconspanyservice, • and only service. An Honou • would ' able Genticusaa had called pebbiode invidiotu; but attaeli the . stri d ctiy and exclusively confined to persons who had meritorious services , slid who 'stood in need the assistance, he had no doubt but that they Honour. completely escape that obloquy* which now es to pensions as well as to sinecures. - HOUSE OF LORDS, JUNE 15. • Mr. MAR s TAT , anti others, were examined on the subject of the Orders in Comma. Upon message from the Commons requesting a conference re specting their Lordships amendments to the Whitby Harbour B.U, the Lords agreed to the *conference, and the same was or dered to take place in the Painted Chamber on•Wedmeselay next. The Blackfriars Bridge Improvement Bill, and others, were brought up from the Commons, by Sir JAMBS SHAW, Sir J ass as GRAHAM, and other Members, who also announced the assent of the Commons to their Lor dships Absendments in the London Lottery Bill. The Earl of ROSSLYN moved, that certain Accounts con nected with the examination relative to the Orders in Council, which hal been moved for long ago, but not yet presented, should be presented tort hwitb.—Ordered. The Earl of LIVERPOOL proposed to fix the second reading of the Scottish Local Militia Bill for Wednesday next—Ordered. On the motion of the Earl of LAUDERDALE, it was or dered that the temporary _lnsolvent Debtors Bill, for England and Ireland, should Ist committed on Wednesday next. Adjourned till to-morrow (this day.) - Ims place. undeistandinggt ohaots.l3;_vraThsemZll7l4;il 1 On the question being called Tor, . e The.SPEAKER. said, that he cohceived it h e lls i would, it the House pleased, restate to him w i at ' i duty to state, in consequence of an objection having ! had then stated.---(Ge on, beetetaken to the third reading of this Bill, from its' then observed, that he considered himself sis nue ~I not having received the consent of the Crown, that " the whole public," and as an individual me ss . ' this appeared to him not to be an insuperable objecs of that public he was justified in guarding hi ms ; tion to the third reading. After the third reading, against any mis-statement and misconceptio n , the Bill was open to amendments ; and if, in the would restate what he then said.--(Go os, so on. 7_ i amended form, it went to take away any part of the He would therefo re be g in wi t h express i ng his '7 revenues of the Crown, it would be contrary to the tude first to the House for their'indulgencoi n 1; `usage of Parliament to pass such 4 Bill without the ing to what he was about to rest a te, prom i s i , ' consent of the Crown. in that restatement he would not u se any surp • 1 The Bill was then read a third time without a and secondly, that he would not offend the c ' - div Mr. BANKES then moved as a clause, tional jealousy of the Right Honourable Gsee ms o provided On that night he had stated, and h e regretted ti; always, that nothing in this Bill should be prejudi- what he then said had tot been heard by all, te ak vial to the rights and interests of those who are now was the intention on the part cf a great portion Chief Justices."—This clause was brought up, and the Household, to resign their situations in the - "unanimously agreed to. of certain persons coming into the Administra •• Air W. CURTIS brought up a similar clause to On that occasionlie had stated, not that they protect certain City Officers, who had bought their . wait to be turned out, hut that they were d . situations from the city, ;And had now the right of; to resign, not if a change of m e as ures W as to edi alienating chem.—This CI:MSC was also agreed - to. I . place, hut that it a change of men me re ly sea, l i t . After the clauses had been brought up, 1 the result of the ncgociations. The pe rsons sn il Mr. MARTIN (of Galway) moved an amend- termined were the ihree Greet Officers of theek o , • ment to leave out those words in the Bill which con- hold, and that determination was corn to ise s i fined the pensions to such persons, having filled dually, within twenty four hours, without th e% !situations, as had need of such assistance. He con- stating to the other his determination ;he ahea d I sidered this a degradation, and a sked t he Hon. that it was determined that a communicatiosoo s I Gentleman, if lie (Mr. Bankes) had failed the office effect stated shows' be made to the great Peeel of Chancellor of the Exchequer, woeid Clot he con- Chiefs. He had !arther stated, that the deteo l i s , ceive himself entitled to the pension, notwitostand- tion oil the part of ad was firm ; that there le ss( ing his affluent fortune ? He elided this Bill the a contrariety of opinions on the siiiij ee r. d islike Hon. Gentleman's mistress—his tanyeke; Let he m at t er being mad e known t o t he Right H onor believed that the Orpheus over the way weals lose Gentleman, he (Mr. Sheridan) came to the his Eurydice. Lord to a place where they usually niet, and se t The House then divided on Mr. Martin's amend- 4g 1 hear you are all going to resign. Do w is e ment, which was carried by a mij , ,i ity of 64 to 52. such a step. Let me advise you as an old frieade Mr. BARING'S amendment was &hen pot, and cc- reconsider your determination, and we'll talk aim gatived. it anther time." The opinion of the Right H. I . - Mr. WROTTESLEY felt it his duty to take the Gentleman haviteg, some weight with theNote e j aa d g sense of the House on the Bill, as it aff;:cted the Cora he d d consent to reconsider :I t e matter, and therm potation of Cursitors of the Court of Chancery. He day.was fixed fur farther converse:ion i the Ri thought that body was equally entitled to exemption Honnitraule Gentleman came to the place eppasi e ( from its operation, as sonic of those to whom ithad but from some mistake either. in the hour of apes been extended. He should, therefore, propose a ment, or from some other cause, he ( Lord Yerasoull clause to that effect. was gone out, and did not meet the Right Hat The SPEAKER reminded the Hun. Gentleman Gentleman, but subsequently—. that the present was not the proper time 'for receiving Mr. SHER IDA.N here rose to order; ober* his clause, as the body of the Bill was now under the that it was not his wish to stop any explanatios, lest consideration of iles House. when he had given notice for Wednesday, 'mos Mr. W. FITZGERALD moved, by way of son might then give an opinion on his conduct, ad amendment, the omission of the last clause in the the conduct of the individuals concerned; beds* Bill, which provided that the Pension List of Ireland premature discussion would be irregular. Zia pew should be reduced to ,e 40,000 a year, and that suns •ed to the honour of the Noble Lord to abatis not to be afterwards exceeded. the discussion at present. At the same time, is* Mr. HUSKISSON really thought that the sum it be the pleasure of the House to listen to itabii specified in the Bull bore a fair proportion to the pie- Lord, he hoped they would also indulge lest vie sent revenue of Ireland. The House, pereaps,were per.nission to rel.ly, and it that prettifies vis hardly aware, that Ireland had not a single shilling .granted to him,, o d, übt that every Continuer, of disposable revenue ; that the whole of it was ex- sent would claim a similar indulgence. (Iftea,isse) hausted in the payment of the interest of her debt ; The Earl of YARMOUTH had no wish p_pa and that she had nut the means of paying, otherwise seen—he would wait for the oppertunity cie Wee but by loan, any part of her joint contribution. Un- nesday of explaining what he had said, and doh der such circumstances, the Pension List now pro- was satisfied there could be re 1 possible difcloottf posed, surely bore a full proportion to her income. opinion as to what had really passed. Sir .1. NEWPORT declared that not only was the . Here the conversation closed. revenue of Ireland inadequate to the payment of The House then went into a Commitsted 4 her debt, but it was so by at least half a miliion of PAST INDLA. LOAN, money. Mr. WALLACE said, that in moving a bah The House then' divided, when there appeared tion for a Loan to the East India Company, betholll for the motion, Ayes-59—Noes 60. not think it necessary to enter very ea:limiest,/ The clause therefore stood. its financial situation. As it was intended to leech. On our re-admission to the Gallery, we fiered the the to..n to the East India Company in theksioileil CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moving tnat the yea', :soother opportuiiity, besides the presseleggill farther consideration of the 11111 be deferred till to- be afforded for discussinz the subject. It "II? morrow. however, to .tate the nature of the necessity lila Mr. WILLLA MS WYNNE observed, that os it tee Company round itsat to apply for moneyusrat had been suggested as a question, whether the con- melit,aud the security which it presented todwolliet sent of the Crown was not necessary to the liii pass. for payment. There-were only ..hree waysbywhidge ing that House, he hoped that Genii men would Company could raise money; either boas everted pay some attention to this point, so as to come to a their capital, by increasing their binued debt, oar satisfactory decision. lie thought there were piece- an application sorb as the one they now made. Tle dents of a very early date r -of the reign of Edward precarious situation of their Charter made disk( I. and Edward 111. which seemed to shew that the highly inexpedient ; their bonded debt was do* previous consent of the Crown Was not necessary. ! £6,565,000, and any increase of it would news Mr. COURTNEY observed that if such remote it to a discount ; and there remained, thentetti log precedents Were to be appealed to, it would be right the last mode, that of a petitioning for a 10316 . k that the House should have further time to consider ought to be remembered, that whenever the lac the question. ' India Company applied to Parliament in this waifs The farther consideration of-the Bill was there- money, they always paid it within the year; sail fore postponed till Wednesday. in recompence for our assistance, we owed •i? PRINCE REGENT'S SECRETARY. 1 Company not only the great extension of oar O TM Lord CASTLEREAGH rose to observe, that tory ie,lndia, but the tranquillity and seciftill 4116 as the notice of a motion on this appointment st o od possessions in that quarter. He begged also toe" for an early day, he thought it right to acquaint the that it was not from any mismanagement, or_ sit House, that the Prince Regent had been graciously ' rea l di s tr e ss, th a t t h e C ompan y n ow tat itself buret pleased to direct that the salary of Colonel IWlthla-' to apply to Parliament for the present hue- Tk• ' bon should be paid out of the Privy 'Purse—(Near, of their deficit was but £6.500,000, far • e " hear.) The Hon. Gentleman who had given the o f w hi c h th e y a ppli e d to t h e country, oat 0 notice would, therefore, probably think his motion • ,E 2 500,000, S-sths were already anticipated by unnecessary. silents in the India public service ; £ 1,62 • Mr. PONSONBY, in the absence of his Hon. the sum already advanced by the Compeers r . ,,,, Friend (Mr. Horner) could have little hesitation in the actual loan asked of the country was msf; saying that the notice would of course be dropped. ' g9oteooo. For such a sum as this it would be'' RECENT POLITICAL NEGOCIATIONS. less lle to va s i t u a e te c t f ha t t h t e h i e r Compa ny Mr. SHERIDAN rose to give notice of its being his intention, on Wednesday next, to submit a mu- ka,600,000, and they had also in expectegicsliw o tion to the House, in consequence of what had been dam. supplies. This loan was but a Nori o said during the debate of the other nigh;. There rangemcnt, merely' to keep on the affairs of the", n al h p a re d se s n la t c o ; n en li t * W I was no person who felt more deeply titan himself piny until a complete arrangement hi thewholcrl the importance of public opinion ; it was not sun- debt should be effacted; and until that graeco_li!' prising, therefore, chaise should feel anxious m pro- ment of the concerns of the Company should= tect his own character in the public estimation : and which was in a short time to take place. 1 4,01- _ l 4 on this account he now took t h e ear li est opportunit y ' t h ere f ore , t h at no o bj ect i on wou ld be =dew he could, of giving a notice on the subject. He resolution, which was, that a sum not c•• . a would, on Wednesday next, bring forward a mo.ion L'2,500,000 should be granted to the East for further and more ample information on the Lite Company. • Go* negoeiations for a change o f Mini sters . H e fl it- M r . CREEVEY b e li ev ed that the Hog . tered himself that the Chancellor of the Exchequer" man would not come off with his Resolutions* would allow him"' the precedence of that day, as lie as lie imagined. This was, indeed, a anon to had only .to make a, brief statement of the facts, as dinary application, taken in every point d vleg= they related to himself, which could lead to no. not the least extraordinary part of t wa_a, .____.."7,, lengthened discussion, and, sure Le was, would ad.! he (Mr. Creevey) applied to the Hon. Gotk i 4i mit of no contradiction. After having made that i know W such an application as the present? "": 1 ,& statement to the House, he believed that there was ! made this year, he denied any knowledge al . sIIEZ not any living being in the shape or character of a ' thing. this business was allzch must very fine jots' m il Gentleman, who would contin u e to th row ' out any ' the petition was,pres4ntedi reflections on his honour and character. • •• 1 4 kind of stealth, for he did not hear any tkilit7 The. Earl of YARMOUTH expressed a wish to it, it was referred to a Committee above oaks! offer a few observations. He trusted that he should •sider Of its propriety. Who were the Meow not be considered as infringjng upon the usages' of . Committee ? Why, t e e Gentleman who eccie w . ,. .. Parliament if he endeavoured to restate What . e had ' petition, and a parcel of the Directors so offered to:che House on the evening alluded to. On' Well, then, up went the petition to be seer that evening he certainly fancied, when he made the Oil Commitve, consisting of ,seven Er statemeny that he saw the Right Hon. Gentleman in r:ctors ; and after a most profound de .. I I I c i i s I I