Star. — London, England, 1812-02-01 00:00:00

illidt ask sad ery 112 t dance one instanee of flagrant partiality to ate p ro testants, and of prejudice and severity ids the . Catholics, and he would then acknowledge a wer e some grounds for inquiry. Let it even h e wn that the operation of the Convention Act oid be less injurious to the Protestants than to the cetholics, if the former should act in violation of 4 ,„ l a w. If the Protestants, under the pretence of o ' oa ing the King or Parliament, or any other pre ;nee whatsoever, should delegate and assemble SW wor o f the first respeetability and weight among if that assembly were to meet and deliberate, c d thus form a representative body, independent of ibeLegidature, would the Government he justified in o w ing such proceedings to go on without interrup tion Was not such, however, the recent conduct of the Irish Catholics ; and was their conduct, contrary sit was to law, and pregnant as it, might have Pro ved with the most dangerous consequences to the Stater to be allowed to pass unnoticed and unchecked? That indeed would be an instance of blind and extra ordinary partiality and favour towards the Roman c a thelics. The Noble Lord next entered into a yin - &ado of the late judicial proceedings in Ireland, " i d contended that it was the indispensable duty of t he Courts to proceed as they had done. It was not nue ly to be allowed, that pictures of sedition were e very day to be eiliibited with impunity, without any i i aerference on the part of any of the Constituted Au. &tines of the country ; that would unquestionably r ut be the surest means of improving the condition of Ireland. No ! the prosperity an happiness of the United Kingdom would only be promoted by mu tual sacrifices, by reciprocal forbearance, and by the harmony of the exertions and energies of both, as cor dially co-operating against the machinations and thy violence of the common enemy. Such being the im- Felton of his mind he must vote against the motion fir a Committee of Inquiry. 'The Duke of BEDFORD briefly explained the nature of his charges against the Irish Government. The Marquis of DOWNSHIRE insisted that no. thing had been done towards improving the state of Ireland—but that every measure of late, pal ticularly tFe measure of the Union, had greatly tended to de tnicrate her condition, to humble her pride, to sap thefoundations of her prosperity. In being deprived o f her Parliament, it was not one privation alone that Ireland had suffered. That privation had involved r atty other severe and degrading privations. It de prived her ct.her metropolis—it deprived her of her same as a kingdom—it deprived her of her nobility _privations which of themselves are sufficient to sink the spirits and unnerve the energies of a people. It tamover tended to drain her of her money, by remit tances to absentees, and thus deprived her not only of the example and influence which a nobility and gentry are wont to exert over a country, but also of the advantage of resources which were drawn from her soil. Indeed, in every point of view in which the measure of the Union could be contemplated, it would appear x6th disadvantages and degradation to Ireland, instead of benefits. It promised great ad ' vantages to the Catholics, to induce them to concur is promoting the measure. and repaid that concur. rence with disappointment and ingratitude. Instead of mutual conciliation, it only begot disaffection and ill will—and in every respect it could only be looked upon as a nominal union Such, it ap pearing to him to be the condition of Ireland, lie could not tut sup lett any motion this had for its object to better that condition. The Earl of HARDWICKE defended the con- duct of the different Governments of lreiand for a number of years past. Most of them had been mark ed by concessions and indulgence to the Catholic.. Out of these concessions fresh claims and demands sesmed to grow—though they were granted, they were expected to afford eitire satisfaction, and to put estop to any further solicitations. In the year 1793 the Elective Franchise, and the right of accriring property were conceded to the Catholics—and it was then understood on all hands that the spirit of con cession had gone to its fullest length. No one could rejoice more than he did at the repeal of the penal laws—but there must be some point at which a stand was necessary to be made. He could see no possible advantage in instituting an inquiry at the present moment into the state of Ireland. The granting of a Committee for that purpose, would be only to throw censure on the Government tf Ireland, which their conduct was far from deserving. In other respects, he did not consider the present time and circum stances as seasonable and propitious fur the agitation of these questions. He must therefore oppose the motion of the Noble Earl, Lord SIDMOUTIi said, that he feared that on the present occasion be shou:d not be able to do jus tice to his own feelings. Be derived, however, much suieactio n front what fell from two Noble. Lords who had preceded hi - m. With the one (Earl Aberdeen) he concurred in considering the present question as one of the deepest importance ; with the other (Earl Hardwicke), he agreed in thinking, that after con cessions made to the Irish Catholics in 179:3, that concession bad then gone its utmost length, and that there a stand c,ught to have been made. But he must differ from those Noble Lords in the views they took of the consequences that Might arise to this country from any opposition to further concessions. The Noble Earl who bro,oglit forward the motion seemed to think that mt re had been granted to the lower orders of the Catholics than to the higher : That the higher classes, the Nobility of that persua sion, were still deprived of the rank and privileges theY were entitled to enjoy, while many advantages Were derived by the lower order of the Catholics, horn the concessions already made to them. Yet to both it had been argued, belonged the right of tech concessions. They were not to be matter of . !listussion and deliberatien, they ought to be acknow ledged as matter of right. This question of right, it Was not necessary for him to examine and discuss. 44. % Noble Friend (Lord Aberdeen) had, in his .. ° Pinion, completely settled and disposed of . that Iluestion. Indeed, it was true, as his Noble Friend had observed, that such a doctrine was wholly unte nable. that That doctrine had, however, been set up in House by very_high authorities. They argued, that t h e concessions called for by the Catho li cs , should be granted to them as matter of right, while at, tile same time it was contended that the higher or v.,ers of the C a th o li cs were deprived of the privileges ,u'ey should e n j oy , w hil e a ll t h e concessions were in irfour of the lower orders of that persuasion. This ill his • • °Pulions was forming a strange action of a . . • . . • - • • . right. He meg i Ined • , that Where %here was a right, t# ear, Auer, hear.) in the next place, the Irish Ca- don ei your Lordships. However I may difter with there could be no distinction of persons; that it was tholics required that they should by qualified to fill the Noble Earl who has brought it under our view, that very essence of a free Constitution, that where the highest offices in the State ; but did it f e llow, notwithstanding the exigency of the occasion, lam there was a right it should b e equa lly en j oye d b y a ll t h at b ecause t h ey were qualif i ed to hold the high . st ill o f opin i on, that as i t h as been brought forward, descriptions of persons living Government, by the higher otclere, as w e ll as the ( Hear, hear, hear.)—There were many, very many discussion, according to th e wise practice of Parliaa lower, and vice versa. When the improvement Protestants in this country who had the giri.ification ment upon all matters of such high and serious in and melioration of the condition of Ireland was of both wealth and talents, but wh i dhl not hold tercst. If we are to entertain the question at all, we sought after, it was the conditi on o f it s peasantry high offices in the State ; but it was ter necessary to should discuss its parts with temper, and decide upon which it should he our s t u dy to imp rove . Among reason on this head to point rut the weakness of its merits with impartiality; we should always beat them idleness and ignorance st ill pre va il e d, an d as such an argument. If the Irish C ttlinlics were to In mind the effect that our decision may have upon long as they were exposed to th e influence of these be qualified to hold a situation in the Government, i the passions, the feelings, the prejudices even, and vices, their condition could not be improved. He had it could not necessarily follow that the King must the interests of the great body of men who will never been a frh nd to the penal laws by which the select hi m to b e e i t h er his L or d Chancellor c,r his be affected by ig. In this view of the case, and in or pFlplu of Ireland had been oppressed. It was a vi- Commander in Chief ! 01 such stron • s h and texture der that we may arrive at that fair and unbiassed and cious system, and he agreed with Mr. Burke that that appeared to him all the arguments !la it had beeiror i dispassionate result, which, upon every ground of po system had been carried to a vicious perf e ction. Such that could be urged against the claims of the Iri s h licy and justice, it is our duty to promote, it is, in my a policy he deplored; he dete s ted t h e extreme to w hi c h C a th o li cs ! F rom t h e b ottom o f hi s sou l h e b e li eve d opinion, the duty of your Lordships, before you it had been carried: but while he deplored such a po- that there existed no one solid, ohm season for op.. , some to any decision upon the motion of the Noble licy, he acknowledged the fatal necessity which gave posing Catholic politic Emancipation—for not granting to Earl, to take into your consideration—first, What it birth, and referred for his justification on this head the Irish C at h o li cs t h e re ason a bl e b oon t h ey - re. the effect bf your vote may be on the law of Ireland to the spirit Irish Catholics at the period to which he alluded.— to grant, than tiai•irs to receive. ( Hear, hear.)— country—secondly, What the effect may be upon the The laws which were then enacted, had only for oh-' They had been told, that the lower classes in pai- different branches of the Executive Government of jest the security of property. But he was sorry to be , titular, of the Irish Catholics, had been much be- test country, as connected with the administration of obliged to say, that their mischievous influence and nefited by what had already been dune for them ; the law, and with a view to the preservation of the effects still continued. They w ere to be found in the but the lower order of the Catholics never trou tranquillity of that country—thirdly, What effect it idleness and ignorance of the peasantry, as he had al- bled their heads about whether they were quail- may time upon the temper, the calm, sober, and ready observed ; but that evil was not to be remedied led for Members of Parliament, or to hold the dispassionate feelings of the people of that coun- by granting to the higher o r d ers of the Catholic per- highest of in the State. (Hear, hear.) —lt try, to which we should at ail t i mes pay proper suasion the privileges and rank to which they were was not that class of the Catholics that called fo r the attention, uhenever we proceeded to the discussion said to be entitled. Was it for such an object that enjoyment of such privileges—it was the higher class of such subjects—feelings, the best that can emanate the House was called upon to go into a Committee —the Catholics of family, of wealth, an of ednca- from the human heart, of which I trust I have ever l of Inquiry ? What other grounds had there been- tion that required those qualifications. Grant wh a t been seocibie, and on all occasions proud, and which for the necessity of such an inquiry at present ? The the Catholics requited, and the higher orders would I have manifested every disposition to appreci-te, 1 Noble Viscount then proceeded to consider the con- not only be satisfied, but the lower class would be as well c n former occasions, when the Catholic ques duct of the Irish Government, and the Noble Duke gratified, and all descriptions of them would fel a thin has been agitated, as in the recent instances of at the head of that Government. 'There was not the stronger inducement than ever to support the Coast'. its discussion. Ilse feelings to which I allude, are least colour for any of the charges made against that tution. To refuse to listen to their claims might throw the true seurces of our national glory, and upon them, Government. Above all, no blame could be at toch- the higher orders upon the great mass of the Catho- in my opinion, rests, not alone the security of the cm ed to the Noble Duke, with whose generous, humane lies—at all events it might tend to throw the mess pire, but the preset vation of all those blessings which and gentle nature, he was well acquainted ; a nature into the power and leading of those villainous and we now possess, or can hope hereafter to enjoy, in that would never allow him to oppress an individual, evil-disposed persons whose objects were confusion cludin.t the protection and security of the Protestant much less a large description of his fellow-subjects. and domestic discord—(Hear.) Such, he said, might Establishments in Church and State. Having stated But why was such a motion as the present deterred be the effect of not listening to them, and he thought thus much generally upon the importance of the guess till now ? Why has there b een no n ece ss ity fo r it the bare possibility of such an event ought to be avert- tion under consideration, and the claim it presents to during the last eleven years ? Much had been said ed, especially when no mischief could result to the our most serious and 4eliherate attention, I shall now of the wisdom, the moderation, the patriotism of the State from granting one required emancipation. If proceed to make s :me oban-vations upon the speech Catholics on various occasions during that period ; the Irish Catholics were placed on an equal footi n g of the Noble Earl ( litzWilliain), and the reasons yet it never had been thought necessary until now with their Protestant brethren much good mi g h t en- • urged by him in support of his motion. In the first to adduce the display of these virtues as a ground for sue—it might increase the attachment of the fanner Place, then, I must observe, that he has placed in the granting a Committee of Inquiry. But it seems that to the existing Government and to the Constitution._ front of his argument, a statement, taken horn a news some Noble Lords would have all the laws repealed Where so much was to be attained by granting the paper report, of a transaction, said to have taken upon which perhaps depends the security of property. honest claims of a great portion of the Irish Com- place in Dublin on 4 recent occasion. What founda- Yes, have them all repealed ; and yet talk of no se- munity, he thought it unwise indeed to refuse the ' tion there may be for that report, I cannot take upon curity in their room. The House did not now even present motion. It would be conciliating the discon- me to decide ; but this I will say, that as I never saw, hear of the Veto. Yet such counter-securities were no tented at a cheap rate. It was perfectly natural for nor read the newspaper statement to which the Noble doubt absolutely necessary ; should not the King be them to press their claims, they deeming the grant- Earl has alluded, I neither knew nor heard any made at least a co-ordinate power with the Pope— ing them necessary to the consummation of solemn thing of the transaction to which it refers, till I but would the t atholics agree to this ? Would their promises ; and it was equally natural for them to learned it from the speech of the Noble Earl. The Hierarchy submit to this? he believed' not. While feel sore at the idea of being, what they called, use made of the report, by the Noble Ear!, was such a state of things remained, he must dread not oppressed. Such they conceived themselves to be exactly what it was intended to give rise to—an in only the opinions, but the morals of the Catholics.— in some way, and those were not wanting who were sinuation against an Officer employed under the He could not consent, without due provisions I R. the constantly dinning in their ears sentiments of such ' Irish Government, of an intention, on his part, to safety of the present establishments, to place in the a tendency. Grant them, then, what they required,' procure an unfair return of the panne' of a Jury. I hands of the Catholics high military and legislative and the causes for such complaint would be removed, .am not aware how that fact stands, not having heard authority. He could not assent to this equalizing of and there would no longer remain the opportunity of any thing of the circumstances till I heard it in this religions. He could not assent to see the symbols and circulating the idea amongst the Irish Catholics that House ; but I must aid, that I have also heard, that atrrihntes of authority carried one day to Church, they were oppressed.—(Hear, /rear.) —The N o bl e the objection upon which the insinuation was founded, And the next to Mass. Ihe union of the Church and Lord then proceeded to notice the state of the Penal . has been subsequently ever-ruled by the Court. If State should ever be held sacred by him. They were Laws, so far as they affected the Catholics ; o b s eea. ' the Noble Earl had been apprised of this dream inseparatily united, and every tiling would be risked ing that they so affected the Irish soldier, on his ' stance, or other circumstances, which I understand by the dissolution of that union, of that most sacred coming to this country, that such a code would be a • also to have since taken place, he would have discar alliance. Fromt its downfall, the most dreadful poli- shame to the Mahomedans ! The Noble Lo r d, i n re- : ded the consideration from his mind, and not thought tical convulsions and every other species of misery marking on the Game Laws of Ireland, by which no of it befitting the digniti of you* Lordship? proceed might justly be apprehended. With such an impres- Catholic was allowed to carry a gun, observed, that ings, to make it the ground of any proposition to be , sion on his mind, he could vote for nothing that had they were so dreadful, and held in such detestation, ! submitt e d for y our consideration. This then, bein g !so fatal a tendency ;he must therefore oppose the mo- tnat not one individu 11 from amongst the very dregs the case, I will ask the Noble Lord, whetfier he tion of the Noble Earl. lof the people, could ever be induced inform against . thinks a common newspaper report a su ffi c ient rea- Lord HARDWICKE briefly explained. I any violator of those laws. They were so ashamed , son to induce your Lordships to go into an inquiry Lord SOMERS, in rising to support the motion, of them, that they could never be made to act ac- into the state of Ireland ? Does the Noble Earl expressed his firm conviction that the approval of it ! cording to their spirit, nor to promote the punish- really think so ? Or can any of your Lordships en would tend to promote the well-being of the country ment of those who disobeyed them ! If, then, some ! tertain the notion for. a single moment, when you mere than could any other question that it was pos- of the laws in existence against the Catholics were so consider that the foundation of every cavil was re ! Bible to bring before that House. With respect to the dreadful, that they would shame the Mahomedans, . moved by the decision of the Court, and that this lexpectations of the people of Ireland, on the subject and others were of such a nature, that the people was followed u p b y other circumstances which, if lof the Catholic claims, his Lordship observed, that, for whom they were meant were act'uliy ashamed known to the Noble Earl, would have prevented had it not been expressly understood by the peo . le , of them, so much so, that none could be found to . him from adverting to such an authority in the of Ireland, previous to the tiniest, that emancipation inform against the violaters of them, was it not manner he has done? For my own part, I must would follow that event, he questioned very much i expedient that the claims of the Catholic should be say, that I do not consider this a sufficient ground whether such members of them would li we signed . made the subject of inquiry ? Something, it was for going into an inquiry into the state of Ireland. the petition to bring about that measure. Much had true, had been done for the Irish Catholics of late , Then the Noble Earl has made this the subject of a been said against the claims of the Catholics—claims years ; indeed too much had been done for them charge against the Government of Ireland. Upon which they deemed to be founded both in justice and to stop without doing more. The principles of this point I have only to state, that if I had heard I in solemn promises held out to them at the time of j policy and of justice required that more should be one word tending to convict that Government of any the Union. If, however, it could be shewn that no j done for them: those principles required that the Irish : improper interference between the Subject and the mischief would result from liste ing to their claims, ! Catholics should, enjoy all that is possessed by. their i Crown, or the People and the Parliament—if there he did not sce how their Lordships could coneis:ently ! Protestant brethren. To grant them the privileges; was a tittle of evidence to that effect, or that could refuse the motion for a Committee. To proceed by , they require would be advantageous to them and be - : whew by any act, directly or indirectly, that Govern a negative mode of reasoning, he felt fully convinced ; neficial to us , • and he trusted that the tune was not ment had iuterposed its authority for the purpose of that no mischief could arise from granting to the Ca- I far distant when they would enjoy those rights and ; preventing the exercise of the legitimate right of the tholics the emancipation they required. In the first privileges to which they had so much just claim. i subject to petition,--or if in any of the measures which place, he would ask, their Lordships what mischief His Lordship, in conclusion, remarked, that it had that Government felt it necessary to take upon the could result from permitting Catholic Members of ; been generally understood that the Prince's former occasion, any opinion whatever had been given upon Parliament ? What harm could result from permit- 1 sentiments were favourable to the Irish Catholics. the subject of the Catholic Claims, or the merits of ting fifty or sixty Roman Catholic Members to form i He knew nor what those opinions might nowise; b u t their intended Petitions, I should consider that Go vernment unworthy of the support of the Govern. i a portion of the whole House of Commons ? Fifty if Ministers had been so bold as to advise a change of mein of this country, and undeserving ot the app !or sixty Members, forming a part of a body of be- those sentiments, they had done a grievous wrong.' tween five and six hundred, could not do much injury He approved of the motion for a Committee, think-1 bation of the public. Bat no such step has been. Ito the State. In the measure of the Union he rejoic i ng it imperiously incumbent on th eir Lordshi p s to 1 taken. No impediment has been thrown in the way ed, he deeming the completion of that measure a inquire into the state of Ireland. -of the legal right of the Subject to petition the . happy event for both countries ; butt he was firmly of Lord SIDMOUTH explained. Crown or the Legislature. When the question arose • opinion, that the Catholics ought to be emancipated Marqhis WELLESLEY' then rose and spoke to respecting the construction and application of the Convention Act, it has been at all times made a tbs. . the following effect :—" My Lords, I am fully aware ' from those fettering laws which, anongstrather things , prevented them from holding seats in h Pat • ament.— of the magnitude and imprtance of the subject sub- tinct and separate consideration from any thing con !He had said that no mischief could result from ad- mined to your Lordships' consideration by the Mo- fleeted with the right of petition. It has been so con. 1 mitting Irish Catholics into the House of Commons. tion of the Noble Earl who originated this discussion. sidered by the G;aienunent, and so argued solemnly i greater and gravely, and repeatedly, by all the Crown Law madeOf this he was strongly convinced, and his belief was lam thoroughly convinced that a question of still mote strung from the circumstance, that consequence to the welfare and prosperity of this em- yers in Ireland, in all the pleadings and forensic dis almost all those Representatives for places where the pire could not be made the subject of debate in this cessions which have taken . place upon this subject.— Constituents priacipally consisted of Catholics, voted House, whether it be considered. with respect to At all timeo—on all occasions, and'under all circum invariably in favour of Catholic claims. If then the t h e extent of the int e re s t s imme s h. ete l y at i ssue , or stances, the. right of the subject to petition has I present Members voted • d in favour of the Catholic with respect to the effect the decision may have been studiously and carefully excluded from all the ' claims, what more Mild be done by Irish Catholic upon the means , the resources, and energies of adverse deliberations and discus iions of the qulstion 1- Representatives themselves? These Protest*tt Mem- the country, at this most awful crisis. A subject of at issue. In the name of his Majesty's Servants therel hers voted as would do the Catholic Representatives, such moment must at any Mme, and under any fore, and en behalf of the Diah Government, I wish yet what mischief resulted from their advocating the circumstances, claim and command the serious to deny strenuously and positively that any charge , cause of the Irish Roman Catholics? ' Should the attention of Parliament ; but from your Lord- such as that brought forward, justly lies against al disqualifying laws be repealed, without doubt the ships, who arc Legislators by virtue of your birth, conduct generally, or its particular measures. I are placiis in question would sand to Parliament Catholic and are consequently hereditary Counsellors denial of theperhaps the more anxious to give this bold and positive Itepre Wives, the majority of the Constituents be- Crown, a question of this nature is entitled to the denial to the charge, because, as may well be suppo. ing of the Catholic religion • . and' fifty or sixty such most impartial and deliberate consideration. No hen set , I m i.t feel paincularly interested in any charge Members so returned, it was feared, would overturn Governmen t. I look to it as it presents itself to our notice, I can- affective, that I am thoroughly per. our Co ' ution I Fifty or sixty Irish Catholic not consider it in any other liehr than as 'a ' besides that ench aproceeding is subject suadee, be- ides, e , not only- Ivleinbers overturn our Constitution I Goa forbid as deeply interesting to the welfare and prosperity of contrary to the feelings, sentiments, and principles of , that it should stand on so slender a foundation I. the atm.. ' the country as any which has ever occupied the Nett l e Nett l e eclat - maze at the head of the lush Govern.