Star. — London, England, 1812-02-01 00:00:00

~. irtly qualified. .-It perhaps wu'not of much conse' ipience, as tit the amount olr their qualification, that the tact should he known, but it was of the greatest irrport.nre to thr public that they should know whe ther, since Elul- were appointed, they had lost that independence, for then it might render them depend ent u , i the Goiternment. He was led to suspect this was thecase,AS ¶he returns were refused andfieshould vote for the inotiAn. `l he ATTORNEY GENERAL thought that the opinion of the Hon. Baronet was not completely un derstood by the House ; unless he greatly miscon ceived him, he meant in broad terms to state tkat the appointments to the Magistracy were jobs.—[Sir ,Francis.Burdett here assented to the proposition.]— The Hon. and Learned Gentleman observed that he NiaS right in his conjecture ; the Hon. Baronet had given him the assent which he expected he would Five, and the observations of his Ri g h t Honourable riend were not thrown away. A doubt had been suggested whether the returns would be used in evi dence, if the House consented to permit them ; they might anal would be the strongest evidence. The Legislature had provided the necessary guard against abuse, by enacting penalties for not being properly qualified, and actions might he brought in the Courts of Law against any Isla! , istratel who were liable, but it would be a direct violation of the law to call on them to produce and state the nature of their qualifi cation,.. Ile had no reason to suspect, in any instance wh ttever, that the law had hen violated. He resist ed the motion on the ground that it would be impro per to furnish the account called for. If the House tolerated the motion, every Magistrate in the king dom would he liable to be called upon. With respect to prosecution, the House might direct one. Sir JOHN NEWPORT thought the House had divested itself of its inquisitorial powers by affixing a penalty. Sir FRANCIS BURETT replied—in the course of which he disclaimed all idea of attacking the cha racter of the Police Magistrates, or of imputing blame to the present Government ; his observations were directed solely to the system. . The House then divided—fur the Motion 7 . against it sT—majority 50. LOCAL NIILITLA. On our readmission to the gsliery, Mr. RYDER was making some observatiom on the subject of the Loral Militia, preparatory to asking leave to bring in a Bill to amend the present system, in whizh Bill it was his infeAtion to lonit the numbtr of Local Militia to four times, instead of s'x times, the number of the General Militia, as was now the case, von a power vested in the Crown to call out the increased num ber of sit times the number of regular Milrtia, in case of appre ' beaded invasion, rrovrded Parliament were called together within I i days of doins , An. After seating some other of the regulations . proposed to be introduce:, he concluded with asking leave to bring in a Bill to amend the Local Militia Laws. Mr. H. ADDINGTON seconded the motion, and gave his fullest as.ent to the regulations of she proposed Bill. Leave one then given, the Bill brought in, read a first time, ordered to be printed, and read a sccond time this day fortnight. Adjourned to Monday. HOLFE Or LORDS, JANUARY SI. The LORD CHANCELLOR took his scat on the Woolssek abut faur o'clock. and, atter Prayers were read, some routine busitoss was disposi,d of. An atkiqurnment daring pleasure then took pliice. s About five o'clock the House resumed, when the two Etch.- -quer Bill: Bills were read a second ti me . The Sugar Importation, and the Malt Duty Bills, were read a third time, and rimed. The Royal Ilous-hohl Bill was !novel!' tip from the Com mons by Mr. Loam:so - lON and other M.:tubers, and read a !Fr. time. 'Elie Earl of LIVER POOL, on the Bill brisig read a first time, Moved "That the Bill be printed," and acquainted thtir Lord ships with his intention to move the second reading of the Bill on Tuesday Lest. Mr. Luso INGTON also presented the } lousehold Dffieers' BM, which was read a first time and ordered to be printed. ' Some accounts were ordered, oo are moduli of the Earl of 'LAUDERDALE. CATHOLICS OF IRELAND. The order for summoning their Lord.hips being rend, Earl FITZWILLIAM rose for the purpose of 'bringing forward the motion of which repeated notice had been given by his Noble Friend (Lord Grenville). Ile had coma forward in order to bring under the consideration of their Lordships, one of the most im portant subjects, in all its views and bearings which ormld possibly call for the attention of the Imperial Pailiament. But though momentous and - impoe tint as the subject was at the time the notice was fit st given, greedy as it pressed upon the early and anxi ous attention of the British Senate, yet he certainly little thought that its peculiar importance, and the necessity of a speedy investigation, would be iftealeu leble increased by the view and consideration of cir eurnstances of recent occurrence, which were, he be lieved, unprecedented in the annals of the country. The events and circumstances to which he alluded, he could not have entertained an idea of, when he Erin proposed their Lordships being called together for the objects he had in view. The proceedings to which he adverted went to shake the foundations of these great bulwarks of civil liberty ; nay, to endan ger the pctsonal 'safety of the subject ; and, he be lieved, he might ver.ture to challenge the House to produce any instance of the kind in the judicial his tory of the country, for the last century ; they mili tated against the very principles by which the liberty of the subject was withheld.. These proceedings ren dered it more imperatively incumbent on their Lord- Ships to consider the general subject, of which such proceedings had new become a very prominent and important part ; not only with a view to the security of the undoubted rights of those who were most im mediately liable to be affected ; but with a view to the point (though occurring on the other side of the water), in the light of precedent and example. That House, particularly, could not be too feelingly alive or too vigilant on such an occasion, as the rights, the liberties, and the personal safety of their fellow- Subjects at large, were implicated in 411 e considera titer. The rights of the people with respect to the p ur ity of the trial by Jury, he regarded as the palla dium of ehe public safety. The most anxious and jealous care should be taken to provide for ands assert the due and upright administration of the most im- Rortant branch of our judicial system. But a more re,eular opportunity would arrive for a detailed dis- Cussion of this part of the subject; for it was one which must 'be considered ; end, he timed, when that day should arrive, Parliament would mark its strong and decisive sense of such proceedings.. The ;abject to which ite had more regularly ami erectly to call their Lordships'. attention, was one which in- Were theyno proceed on se slight, so hypothetical a volvedihe general state of Ireland; and on that ge- 1 basis ? Was there a single document before them to 1 neral ground he had framed the proposition he should prove the alledge d facts ?or did any one Pt:lien:len- have the honour to submit. An investigesion of th e I tary ground existfor bottoming suds an argument ? ; general state of the country, would best spew the IThe Noble Earl had asserted that no time should be real grounds that existed for the loud and repeated Ilost in resorting to some measures. Brit he Most aver complaints of grievance to which their attention ;that he adduced no solid or substantial grerimds.(or would be called ; they would find that a most serious l such an inquiry as was desieed. The ceitdoet of the "difference," at least lie may he allowed to call it, Irish Governmen t , h e mnst contend, was seeli as the I existed between the Government and the people.— exigencies of the crisis celled; ter if, ind. cd, they had 1 By the word people, he was far from meaning exclu- acted otherwise they would have betrayed a culpable 1 ' sively the mass of the population, but the great body want of prudence, and a shameful pesillonnety n — I of the proprietors, and men of consideration in the (hear, hear.) Suppose thee were no other objec % country ; and such a state of things he must say ex- tions, the conduct of the Catholics was such,' that if isted in that country. If not the original, at least the Government did not interfere as it had, they the most prevalent cause of this state of things was, would themselves have eventually become the victims. as had been often and frequently urged before, the He deemed it unnecessary to follow the Noble Earl deprivation of their undoubted rights 3 and until such over the ground he had taken. He would not to fer an alarming and oppressive grievance should be re- trespass upon their Lent/ships time, but would direct dressed, they must naturally expect that the subject their attyntion to what appeared to him to he the would again and again be pressed upon their aunt- main point: It was contented that the Irish Govern tion ; for, without such redress, they could not ex- ment had obstructed the Catholics in the exercise of pect either harmony or satisfaction in that part of the their constitutional right of petitioning. If such were empire. A great deal was apparently laid at the 1 the case, ther e that Government would deserve at door of religious differences of opinion, but he might least the censure ofthat House. But in fact the case be allowed to say, that, in reality, and, in fact, not was widely differeet. The Catholics, undoubtedly, one particle of religious consideration could be fairly had the same right to petition their Sovereign or the ascribed to jt. This, he would venture to say, would Legislature witch all their fellow subjects enjoyed ; be found the case, when they came to examine; they but what lie insisted on, was, that the Irish Govern- would tied that difference in religious sentiment had, ment had never attempted to interfere in any pro- • in reality, very little to do with it. And, he would cee di ng o f t h e C at h o li cs w hi c h h a d t h e o bj ect ripe- ! ask, could any man be fairly and conscientiously kept titioning fairly in view. The fact was, that they had , out of his civil rights—even of the common rights of thought tit to proceed to the fermaticn of a lterre subjects, on account of the religious opinions he sent:ttive Convention. Against a procedure Of this , might entertain ? But, he again repeated, it was no kind (said his Lordship) the Irish Convention had difference in religious sentiments that formed the been more particularly framed. The Members of the grounds of the exclusion of Catholics from a due House of Commons, and no other, were tke legiti share in the representation in Parliament, and from mate and constitutional representatives of the people. those various other undoubted rights of which they What an incongruity, at best, would it present, to see were deprived. It was idle to attribute it to the dit- one assembly affecting to speak the sentiments of the ference of opinion: fur itotence, with respect to the country, while another expressed them in a manner doctrine of transubstantiation, it was impossible to Say, directly opposite ? But the danger of suffering such an that a man could be a mine true and loyal subject assembly to exist was the more important considers-' because he believed that, instead of his receiving the Lion. Had such an assembly beer. suffered to continue real body and blood of Cintise at one of the Sacra- until now, what destructive consequences right not ments, it was done only in commemoration of the have ensued ? An assembly so constituted, if toleraio ' SAVIOUR. The Noble Earl here tcok a short histo. ed, might think proper to discuss the questions of peace rical view of the conduct of the British Governments and war—the resources of the country, the taxes ne- I to their Catholic subjects, especially in the eventful cessary for the continuation of hostilities, and the reigns of Charles the Second and of William' the ability of the people to bear them, the commerce, the Third. lint times and circumstances had mint im- exchanges, and the currency of the empire—all these ' portantly altered since those eventful periods—there topics such a convention might proceed to discuss; was now no Catholic Pretender to the Throne, nor in short every thing debated in Parliament might did any of those various objections upon which fur- arose undoubtedly be discussed in such an assembly. ' merly such stress was I rid, exist at present. The As to the ohjection and its temporary duration, he claims of the Irish Catholics had b e e n seriously ten- would say, if it were lawful to discuss them one thy, sidered and attended to in the Parliament of that it would be lawful to do so another, and so on to any country ; they had been in part recognized, and a , number. Such an assembly, it tolerated, might sit certain portion of justice afforded to them. Some I whether Perliament were sitting at the time or not. ' of their rights were restored ; but many of their most No arguments, however plausible, should, he con , -inwortant rights were still withheld ; the elective tended, be allowed to suffer a precedent of so denger . franchise had been accorded, but they were preelu- 1 out and destructive a nature as the establishment of ded from all share in the legislative power; from all , such a convention. No Governmsnt could long main situanons of command in the army and the navy.— tam tails itself if such a system prevailed—ne Got:element They should consider that by the measure of Uuton, !in its senses would suffer the existence, still lc:s the that part of the empire were destitute of the super- !continuance ol such an assembly ! —(flore, hear 1) intending care of their Parliaments, and they had !That of Ireland, therefore, had acted most prudently now none to look up to for redress, save that and the 'in not suffering such an assembly to continue organiz , other House of Parliament. Why should our Ca- ed in the capital. It was necessary to put the existing Biotic fellow-subjects alone be precluded from a par: laws in execution for the preservation of the, State. ticipation in the common benefits of the Constitution (Met., hear.)—They were justified not only in the, under which they live ? A s l ong as s uc h a conside- principle, but in the mode of their conduct, as was fable part of our population are kept in such a state, amply illustrated by the proceedings of the Catholics. I they might naturally be expected to complain.—His The proclamation of the Duke of Richmond en one, object was to bring this great and important conside- day, was followed by that of Lord Fingal or, the ration fully and seriously to the view of Parliament. next. They had set themselves in open host iity to They would see the p o licy a s well as the justice of the Government of Ireland, which was' unjustly affording some, among so numerous a portion of their blamed for exciting discontents, while in fact they 1 fellow-subjects, a chance of being admitted into the had only enforced the laws of the country. The Government of their country. He saw 110 rational Noble Duke at the head of the Irish Government diflicuties or obstacles which now obtained to the would, instead of meeting with censure, meet the speedy consideration of the subject. An investiga- applause of every impartial man who had the oppor : Lion called for no less by necessity and by policy tunity of observing the acts of his administration.— than strict national justice. They could never hope His conduct, instead of being harsh or precipitate, for a tranquil or a satisfactory state of things in lie- was rather remarkable for its conciliation and fir land, until the grievances of so great a portion of her bearance, to the utmost botlhds of prudence and safety. ! population were redressed ; a consummation which He begged the House to recollect what was the con ' more then any thing else, would tend to the happi- duct of America when she was determined to separate ness, the prosperity, and the security of the Empire from this country. Was it not the organization of a •at large. The Noble Earl concluded by moving,-- representative convention ? What was the case with " That a Committee be appointed to enquire into, respect to France the other day ? Was not an assem. ' and consider of the state of the affairs of Ireland." bly of the States-General first called, and :t National The Duke ofDEVONSHI RE seconded the motion. Convention immediately organized? The dangers of He perfectly concurred in every thing that had fallen ' suffering such an Assembly to have existence, were ! from his Noble Friend. With him he felt that that incalculable, and he felt that the Government of Ire ' subject was one which loudly called for the attention land had only exercised its fpower, at a crisis when of the House, and while things were suffered to re- the safety of the State was seriously menaced—(keer, main in their present state in Ireland, they must ex- hear.) Had it acted otherwise, its supineness and pect to have it unceasingly pres s ed upon their atten- pusillanimity would have b e en ce nsu ra bl e i n d ee d—i t I tion. Not only the j ust i ce an d c h aracter , b u t t h e had enforced the laws on which the safety of the state safety of the country, was involved in the conside- depended. Had it declined to do so, the case in both ' ration.—On the question being put, countries would have been different, but infinitely The Earl of ROSSE declared his opinion, that i worse. Increased murmurs, and mul t iplied a l arm i sts ' nothing which had fall en f rom t h e N o bl e E ar l should would have been one of the lighsest consequences : induce the House to accede to the motion. With the but as it was, he deemed them, instead of censure and Noble Earl, however, he lamented the existing state reproach, deserving of the applause and gratitude of of that part of the United Kingdom ; and no person the country. could he more happy to contribute in extending to The Duke of BEDFORD• strenuously supported every branch of his Majesty's subjects all that was the motion. He considered what had been advanced desired, as far as his convictions of prudence and by the Noble Earl, as not tending in the smallest de ws iy would admit. No one could be more ready in gree to do away the arguments and the facts ad recommending that Parliament should receive and vented to by his Noble Friend. e With respect to the attend to the petitions of the country at large. For recent conduct of the Government of Ireland, he his part, he begged leave to say, that attached as l i e w id e l y diff ere d f rom hi m. An eulogium had been was to all the people of Ireland, of whatever reli- pronounced on the Noble Duke at the head of that gious persuasion they may be, he must naturally be Governnsent. He trusted, however, it would be inclined to accede to any measure which he really allowed him, notwithstanding his near connection thought would tend to the prosperity of that country. with that Noble Personage, to express himself as to or the welfare and security of the empire at large._ this particular point, of a different opinion. The At the same time, he must say, that he believed the effects of the unfortunate measures of that Adminin present to be a peculiarly improper time to accede to I stration were too obvious, he thought, to allow the' the motion of the Noble Earl. The proposition may I merits of the question to be undecided. The actual: be regarded in a two-fold light : first, as it went to state of Ireland Ire too felt, with his Noble Friend, to conciliate the Catholics of Ireland ; and secondly, be such as forcibly to call for the speedy interposition with a view of casting a reflection upon the present of the Government and Legislature of the Empire.— Government of Ireland. In considering the subject, 1 What was that situation? It was a Catholic popula the late conduct of the Irish Catholics formed a pro- tion under a Protest a nt G overnment . F our -fif t h s o f minent point. And fi rst , h e must say , h e deemed ; that population had to maintain their own hierarchy the Catlenic Convention a proceeding of a very dan- 1 an d their priesth oo d, while the other finis were in gerous nature; but a point on which the Noble Earl 1 possession of all the revenues and the resources of laid great stress in the outset, was what was alledged I the Government, to maintain and uphold their own to take place respecting a Jury, and for this he had i establistunents 1 Under these circumstances, the Ca'' no foundation or authority than vague report, or tholics had frequently approached Parliament in a 1 what was stated in a newspaper. Was it upon such supplicating attitude, for redress; with what effect I an hypothesis that august Assembly were called upon was too well known. The discontent:of that corm to go into a Committee oa the affairs of Ireland ?-- try were to 4 attributed to the intolerant spirit or those who now were vested with th e prete. rt r i vernment. The object of their recent ciad oc . , he thought, to induce the rnore e ff ect ; aed tc ;.....' character of ili:plity and solem n i t y to their p' .. -If‘' ings. This object was frus trate d b y the condm"u the Irish Government. Under such circus:o7r it would not perhaps be wonderful if the Cat' l a" that country had acted di ffeteetly ; o ut ~„t t c trary, they have manifested a m ost h old th1e,,,,,.nC ration aild loyalty ef ternp.r. St S h ou l d 1, to _ g -- re lected that the population of fie:: : Lid lOn ~i, been admitted to the elective fra nc hi se, s o mli:": Catholic Nobles, Gentry, And men of pre m ; held unworthy of being the Representative s of to brethren ! While he had the honour to hold a ,. in the Government of Ir.:land, Le r did every thie; hi, ,power under dim: circumstan ces to conciiitte' soften their condition ; he conjuresi the Ho loco.c sider the situation in which so nurnetoas A portion their fellow-stibjects were still held, and to taro serious atte;stion to the critical Situation is which valuabla a branch of the empire see, placed • ma - • m, ce sevence of s.tch deprivations ond'thx nuseso o l ect its Government. For this, the motion - of his N. Friend affiuded them a convenient oppoona ty. were a waste of their Lordlips time to et , upon these topics. Instead * harsh a n d e, sy,te which was latterly ad , they should out the olive branch aul the hand of ftiomd , (Thar, hear!)—Such.v..is the only wiry to wiik hands and hearts r end sttch comduct seicomd more effectually Otto any other, to promote to 1 the trancloillity amid happiness of Iselanc!, t ot:t m it intei est-. and security of the Empite at laroe. Ti4e Earl of ABERDEEN . took a survey of ? generol state of Ireland, in order to exanmint * at was which -coold so Urgently call for an eaquimy i e the condition of that country at the press:lt mern. What most forcibly stmuck Lim he con id s • ring state of Ireland, was the tone and attitude we:il l t body of the Roman Catholics had assumed in the , . ',oration and-furtherance, as they cali.d it, of . • petition to Parliament. Wa, the present the pro moment for pressiog forward their claims? it their petition ready to be laid now below the H oe Was it in the manner in wtaich that petition was pared, or the circumstances that :mended and mot I their meetings, Parliament was to discover and , that moleration; that forbenance, that respect,fie ' hives, that veneration for the Constitution, which su much and so frequently been the theme of pa i gyi ic and applause with their advocates? Wh.o the real object of the motion which the NAIL E had this night submitted to their Lords!mips'c ' . 1 ation ? Were not the Noble Mover and those .* suppo: ted him anxious rather to extend the iaqui, I into the whole conduct of his Islejesty's Gover.er 1 —to eallViSS and criticise thci proceeding, es 1 all the aspects of that c o nduc t ? Thi s h e belies. was the true motive amid object of the prestat iti iti, But he had attentively watched the proceedins .. the Goveentreot in Ireland.; indetd time gener.4 ~ 1 sures et his Majesty's Government hot!' there and ' home ; and hi• humble opinion was, that conduct • cooly was not destrs ing of blame, but was Liehly 1 titled to commendation. It would be impertinen I him to detain their Lordsliips with a detail of ail I had recently passed in Ireland. • All he would take upon himself to say was, that in all tierir late I ceediogs, the conduct of the Irish C a tholi cs , note - , standing their owa, and.tbe claims of their advec to the praise of moderation and i - orbearance, had ~ thing in it that bespoke the very reverie, and ap to him, upon the whole, to 'cie highly rep:rhensibit They seemed wholly to forget the many successe endeavours; that had bee'n made to improve and a borate their conditions ; endeavoimrs which the li rality of their own Parliament, and of their Prieto fellow-subjects, had can ied as fir as re..p.:ct fe t Constitution, and a due regard to its security, vote admit. Much hid been said about the rights • mankind—about rights of the Irish Catholics privileges and immunities which they claimed. g" the Noble Lords who startAhis question of right,ci tend that the -Irish Catholics can claim those Fie leges and exemption as matter of 1 ight f Will asert that the question of right properly belongs . the situation of the lii h Catholics ? If they then must they be also prepared to assert that it not belong to their Lordships House t —thetneit ' this nor the other House of Parliament, nor both t (gether, have the right to imp 'se restrictions m a I class of men, even were those restrictions deemed r cessory for the security nf persons and FopertT, for the general got).11 , 11,1 volaro of the community. large. He should not einer into any minute di of the tenmency and tenure of religious OF • merely in ;hair speculative firm. He wished to • sider theft enly as they might thew themselves .. tically, and how far that practice was or was not mic ml to Government. Under this pint of rim, would consider the claims of tl.e Catholics ; an 4 a what had beer. refused to them, or, rather, whet • not been granted to them within the seaee of a few years ? And, After all these concessions, of did they now complain, and what did they flu* require ? Their complaint, it seems, was now redsof to this, that they were still preJuded from heldel certain offices in the State. On this print they vest' issue with Parliament, and would their advent contend that as a matter of right they could dale 's admissibility to those high ethos. Tills WAS the reg . l state of the question. If that doctrine was set . for one would not hesitate to declare, that such s ue ' trine was not tenable. He was as solicitous at IsIT . , Noble Lord could be for tie 1 better improvewit 1 , the condition of Ireland. But would the g ranrare c e the present clai:ns cl the Catholics contribute Is ~..0 least to that improvement ? He thought not—meow could he see the danger of withholding such a gna' At a distance, • gen. '!'hose dangers, however, dimini shed approached them, and vanished altogether neon some appearances wou trl l ,dl d mice i e tid not t r ol asea tt Ar o 4. nearer view. The Noble Lord' then emooeded o ,. vindicate the late conduct of the Irish Gowen= and to chew that the spirit which animated tbs t _ct * . duct was in no respect hostile to the right of pe ti t , ing, or to any other right to which the Cathol 4 t,i the ng . fair claim ? Where then were the grounds a ! vecrives which the Noble Duke (Bedford) hat t i o t a o r e u d le u ß po o n m t a h n e c c o a n t d h u o c li t cs l tliittUrrose• prejudice had been manifested with respect to them? the persons of the Raman Catholic; held as and was not their property kept as seecore al OW glair Protestant fellow subjects ? 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