Star. — London, England, 1820-05-17 00:00:00

I ...-. di,position of Parliament, no &eat. practical be ref': could be accomplished without the general-con currence of the country at large. His Hon. Friend who had just presented the Petition before them, t:iffered from him, but in very few and inefficient riots. The House, he said, must have heard with pleasure from his Hon. Friend, that s ome of t h e • . principal manufactures which had been for some time depressed, had, at least partially, revived. And he versed with his lion. Friend in thinking, that how ever gleemy and unpromising the appearances might be, there was yet no set hats apprehension (if proper exte tions were made) that the Commercial and MR hitC;L:its of this country would be eadan e,:red in any material degree. During the war an ex •-eerdinary impulse was given to the Manufacturing Lierests of Engiand—•-all extensive, but artificial trade r _vail , 2d, which could not be k4pt up in peace.— eat stale of things must give way to one of a more :roderate, but more solid and more natural kind. lle c -::curre.l with his Honourable Friend, that if the - 11 :use *would encourage the commerce and maim fecteres of the country by good laws—by wise and regulatioes, that they would again behold the revival of commerce and of general prosperity. lint it was only hy ercat efforts that such desirable objects ceeld be accomplished ; they were not to fall asleep ove: the stay % of the country ; they were not to stip pe:, that laeause trade had so long flourished—that bk't: fa: -ZS had gone on prosperously for agi eat of time, that without any exertions on their •!t tiley would revive and flourish. On the con t: try, teey rnwt he convinced that new and great had arisen—that the situation of other countries presented serious difficulties to the encou teeement of Pe itish Commerce—and that extraordi- Errs:: exertions were necessary to meet and to °vet e, me these difficulties. Ile entirely concurred %yid) Ihmeerable Friend in this—that lie did not de ll eed with regard to the state of the country ; whilst Le was willing to admit that the state of the country, as to its commercial and agricultural relations, could not preset ye that artificial degree which it held during the war, but must be reduced to a more reasonable standard. When his Honourable Friend had stated that this country had manufacturing facilities above all other countries, he must vet be convinced that those facilities would be transferred to other nations, should they remain in peace for any considerable time. Those advantages consisted not in the cheapness of lehour ; they consisted in the extent of capital, in the rerfect state of machinery, in the enterprising spirit of oer people. in those respects, we had the start of tie: other nations of the world. But those would be lost in the course cf time, and nothing but the greatest r :ssible :mention to the state of our manufacturing and commercial interests—nothing but the most watchful and active exertions, and the wisest laws, cau:d preserve them. An Honourable Gentleman Lad stated some advantages as belonging to the cot tea manufacturers ; but if the raw materials of that e.ticle were subjected to any considerable duty, nei- Cee- that Honourable Gentleman nor the best in ihrreed man in that House, could be able to calcu- I tie the precise extent of the duty which the manu facturer could bear, so as to be able at the same time to hold a competition with other countries ; and to try an experiment of that description would expose him to the utmost danger. He (Mr. Baring) re peated, that lie did not anticipate any misfortunes to the commercial interests of the country; he did not anticipate to have misfortunes, because he had every confidence in the wisdom of that House. He was glad to see that there did not exist any hostility in tie shipping interests of the country, as to the ob. jests which NI ere embraced by the Petition before them. lle had that morning attended a numerous body of the ship-owners, who had met to express their appre hensions of the consequences that would result from t'-:e object of the Petition being carried into effect to its fullest extent. He addressed that Meeting on several practical points embraced by the Petition ; and, as it oFten happens when men exrlain themselves one to another, he soon found that there was not any difference, at least not any. great difference between bias and the Meeting, but that, on the contrary, they arced on every point, with the single exception of the timber trade. A great concurrence of opinion existed between the ship-owners and the other inte rests of the country ; and, with respect to any parti criar alteration in the Navigation Laws, that body were anxious to permit the carriage of any articles fereign bottoms, with this exception, that they should not eetend to the produce or growth of India, cr of the Colonies, b,!cause if those articles were merely to be brought across the Channel in British vesse:s, it would operate to the disadvantage of Br h t:sh sl:ipi-aeg. Put with respect to the produce of every part of Europe, they had no objection to their importation. The Honourable Member concluded by seyieg, that when Gentlemen inquired into the perticuler points, they would not find so much diffe eence of opirien as they first imagined to exist; and ;:e did hope, that in the course of a short time they %eould be :;hie to eiew the yeti( us intercets of this Century with liberal feelings, and would be able to apply the means of their revival and prosperity. The Petition was ordered to lie on the table. AGRICULTURAL DIsTRESs. _ _ Mr. BROUGHANI presented a Petition from 50 nr 60 occt:piers of land in Sussex, complaiLing rf - g: . e.tt ir.jnry they had sustained, and tin: great c' tress wl:clt was occasioned, by the importation of corn. The Petitioners stated, that the taxes :;Tposi - :d by Government—the extent of the Poor ..ates—and the extraordinary reduction in the price occasioned the distress of which they com-1 p:ainuti, and they prayed for relief and assistance tr.,in the I louse. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman' `.aid, that he did not pledge himself to support the : , rayer of the Petition to its utmost extent—the ob .,:ct of the Petitioners went, in the first place, to repeal the Corn Bill, and to impose a duty on foreign. :orn. lle thought that the subject of the average '.)rice f.xed at 60s. by the Act, ought to be considered House ought at least to see whether the average mice which they meant to put, or affected at least to ;Ai% on corn, was not in fact reduced much below tc original standard. He mei ely threw out this ior . c colhideratiun of the Hot.te. Ktitirogi was ordered to lie on the table. Lord NIILTON presented a Petition from a con ,ideralrle number of Farmers and Yeomen in the Norih Riding t,l Yorkshire, complaining of Agricul trral Distress. The Noble Lord said, - that he did - )t concur in the views of the Petitioners. lie, thought that no effectual relie' could he given to any particular class of persons; that relief, if at all, could only be administered on a lit)c-al and com prehensive plan, embracing the intere.ts of all classes in the country. The Petition was ordered to lie on the table. _ POSTPONEMENT OF MOTI 'NS. Sir H. PARNELL rose to withdraw th., notice of motion which he had formerly given in the absene• of his Right Hen. Friend (Mr. Grattan), respecting the clal.ns of his Majesty's Itoman Catholic subjects. The Hon. Baro vet said, that he had tlmt day received letters from Ireland, which induced him to withdraw the notice.. A Meeting of the Catholizo was to be held that tidy in Dublin, where the question as to the propriety of pressing the immediate discussion of the subject, he un derstood, to he considered. Lord MILTON rose for the purpose of postponing his mo tion for the r. peal of the Tax on Wool, to Friday week. He would, he said, have probably postponed it to this ;toy fortnight, but that he found a motion cf great importancs on the state of Agricultural Distress, was to be brought before the House on that day by an Ho:lmitable Member fur Surrey. After a short conversation between Lord Casu.earamt and Lord NircroN, the nnnion was finally fixed for Friday week. Mr. BROUGII.1:%1 expressed a wish that a motion, of which he gave notice last night, on the filling vp of the Vacancies in the Scotch Jury Courts, and which stood for Friday, the 26th instant, should he hrought on the Thursday preceding. The SPEAK ER said, that that course was not strktly- regu lar, and might lead to inconvenience. It was usual for Honour. able Mcnthers to postpone motions, but not to accelerate their discussion. BRITISH MUSELINI. BANKES presented a Petition from the Trustees of the Ilritish Museum, fur an additional grant of Money.—Ordered to lie on the table. Mr. 11A NKES then moved for an Account of the Income and Expenditure of the British Mweum fur the year 1819. Also for an Account of the Charges and Expenses of the Mu seum for the year 18:20, and the Sums necessary to discharge the same ; which were ordered acccrdingly.—And a Person imme diately appeared at the Bar, and presented the same to the House.—Ordered to lie on the table. WOOL TRADE. Mr. ELLICE presented a Petition from certain Woollen Manufacturers in Scotland. He said, that after the discussion which had taken place on the Pe tition presented by the Member for Glasgow, and after the observations which fell from his Honourable Friend below him (Mr. Baring), he was induced to say one or two words on presenting the Petition which he held in his hand. As an instance of the advan tage which the Public derived from the discussions which had taken place in that House, he had now the honour of presenting, for the first time, to the House, a Petition from a numerous and respectable body of Manufacturers, praying to be relieved from the ge neral restrictions which were placed on the trade of the country ; they complained of the great distress and difficulties under which they laboured ; the state of things was such as could not long exist without in volving every interest in the country in one common ruin. One mode of affording relief to trade was by removing the numerous restrictions which oppressed it in every quarter. The Petition principally went to the repeal of duties on Wool, Rape, and Corn, but they had no objection that all the restrictions which affected trade in general, should be taken into consi deration.—The Petition was then ordered to lie on the table. MILITARY EXPENDITURE. Colonel DAVIES rose, in pursuance of notice, to bring his motion upon this subject under the consider ation of the House. He felt that he laboured under peculiar disadvantages in bringing fot ward this-ques tion, because, ,however the _necessity of economy I might be admitted, still, as there were many in that House who saw causes for alarm in the state of the country, he feared that they might be prejudiced against anything that would weaken the means of defence which the Government had at its disposal.— But as he did net intend to propose any definitive measure for reducing the efficient military force, he hoped the friends of economy would give him their assistance in promoting an inquiry which could do no mischief, but might produce essential benefit to the community. The state of the finances was such, that it was high time for every public man to come for ward, who thoafght he could propose any arrange ments which might tend to improve them, for what ever shape the distresses of the country assumed, at the bottom of them all would be found, as their cause, the disordered condition of the finances. The immense weight of taxation which they required, oppressed the mercantile spirit of the country, which otherwise would have found new channels of enterprize as soon as the old ones were closed up. From these considera tions it was that he wished to direct the attention of the House to the military establitbhments of the country. He had devoted much labour to the enquiry, and the more he examined them the more was he surprised in every department to see such an extreme want of economy, and the greater necessity he perceived for Parliamentary interference. It would, perhaps, be offered as an objection in the outset, that there was no reason to call for the Select Committee which he meant to pi opose, since the Finance Committee had already fully investigated the subject. To the Gen tlemen who sat on that Committee he meant to offer no offence ; but he must say, that from all their la bours, no one advantageous measure had as yet ema nated. If then it should be said that the matter ought to be left to the Executive Government, he would answer, that it ought not, for he agreed with his Noble Friend, who opened the debate of last night, that the duty of reducing any of the existing Esta blishments ought not to be committed to the Govern ment. Their own power depended too much upon the extent of their patronage, to allow it to be ex pected that they would reduce that patronage if they could possibly avoid it—(licar, hear). They shewed no disposition towards economy, as was manifest from an appointment which had recently taken place —he meant that of the Governor of Gibraltar. Here was an office which was neither more nor less than a sinecure ; and from the recommendation of a former Committee of that House that that office should be abolished, it was everywhere expected that when it should become vacant it would not be filled up. Yet the late illustrious possessor of it had scarcely ceased to exist Len the office was given to a person whose principal merit was, that he had a military command in the fatal Expedition to Walcheren ! Indeed, so rapidly was the appointment made, that the same messenger who carried out the intelligence of the de cease of the late Governor, was also the bearer of the information as to the appointment of the successor! It was his design to propose a Select Committee to examine into the whole of the military expenditure. He would now enumerate a few items to show that reatsavings might be made ; and if he could suc ceed is inspiring any Members with doubts as to i re pritrietY and nectii * ty . Of in& rtn exathination, he would consider'that he had accomplished no in consider-Able portion of hi 3 object. The Hort. Mem ber then proceeded to state; that the total of the army in 1787, a fai r p er i o d o f eompati i son, was, exclusive of the army in India, 41,921 ; in 1820, the total, including officers and non-commissioned officers, excluding India, was 92 : 224, a number more than double that of 1787.. The expense of the military establishment in 1817 was 6,582,8021.—in 1820 it was 6,807,4661. giving an increase to the latter year of more than 400,000/. as compared with 1817. Now what was there, he would ask, in the state of the 'country to justify such an increase as this? It would be answered, perhaps, by a majerity of the Members of the House, that the increase was owing to the state of the country. He did not mean to deny it, nor was it his purpose to impair the exist ing steal military strength which it was supposed the state of the country required. He recollected that, in the last Parliament, the Right Hon. the Chancel lor of the Exchequer, among the resolutions which lie proposed fOr an addition of 3,000,0001. to tile taxes, included a resolution which stated, that an overplus of income over expenditure to the amount of at least .5,000,000/. was essential to the welfare of the country. Nosy he would ask, was there an overplus? Were not the new taxes in a great measure, if not altoge ther, inefficient? Such an overplus was undoubtedly necessary, but never could it be obtained unless by retrenchment, and by retrenchment.only. With this view it was that he brought forward his motion, not for any party purposes, for these were not times for the indulgence of party views. He did rot mean to press for a reduction in the number of the effective military force, though it was his opinion that the country might have been preserved in tranquillity without the late additions—(Hear, heat). And this opinion was confirmed when he looked to Scotland, where the disaffection that prevailed was more for midable than in any other part of the country, be cause it was more organized. But the military force there never amounted to 3000 men, and yet they were able, with the assistance of the inhabitants, to preserve the public peace. The inhabitants there, as they ought to do in England, enrolled themselves in their own defence. The Yeomanry, in Scotland, amounted to 3700 men, and it was unpleasant to add, that although the population of the Lowland districts did not exceed the population of Lanca shire, still the number of Yeomanry in the latter county did not amount to four hundred men. If the people there came forward as the people in Scot land had, they would supply a force more than suffi cient to keep the country in order—(Hear, hear). —While upon this subject, he could not avoid ob serving, that the amount of the Cavalry throughout the country was much larger than there was any oc casion for. What necessity, for instance, was there for the Cavalry in Kent and upon the coast of Essex ? Was it to preVent smuggling? With that set-% ice they had nothing whatever to do. The Officers of the Revenue had, at their disposal, a large force ex clusively for that service, and to addition to it was deemed necessary. The same remark might be ap plied to the Cavalry along the whole southern coast. Connected with the Cavalry, there was one source of expense which he thought might, without any diffi culty, be retrenched. It was known that to every troop of Cavalry 'fifteen dismounted men were at tached. This arrangement, when first made, was called one of economy, but it turned out to be an un- 1 necessary additional expense. However, supposing that these fifteen men were necessary when the- ar rangement was first made, it could not, he hoped, be denied, that now they were perfectly superfluous.— He would propose that the dismounted men, there fore, should be all reduced, and this would cause a diminution of forty-six men in each Regiment of Cavalry. He would further suggest a reduction in each Regiment of one Major, two Lieutenants, and two Comets ; upon the whole, savings might be made in the Cavalry Establishment to the amount of, eighty thousand pounds a-year, and yet the Cavalry would remain as efficient as it was before—(Hear). — The existence of two Majors in a regiment was un known in the Army until 1796, when the addition was made, for the first time. He assured the House, that it was unpleasant to him to suggest these reduc tions; because, if carried inta effect, they would bear hard upon particular friends of his own. But there were considerations superior to private feelings, which influenced him in making these suggestions—(Hear). He added, that, as a matter of justice, the Officers reduced ought to be placed on the half-pay list, and that, in any promotions which should take place in their regiments, their claims should be considered the same as if they'were on full pay. The Honour able Member then proceeded to propose the reduc tion of the whole of the Waggon Train, which, he contended, were now unnecessary. This would save the country £lO,OOO a-year. In the Infantry, he would propose also to reduce the second Majors, and so to consolidate the regiments, that, instead of ten companies of sixty-five men each, they might consist of eight companies of eighty men each, and such an arrangement, extended to the whole of the Infantry, would produce a saving of between sixty and seventy thousand pounds a year. There were. large garri sons in Portsmouth and elsewhere, which he (Colo nel Davies) thought might be reduced—(Hear).-- He enumerated reductions in the Staff, which he thought practicable, to the amount of £20,000 a-year; in the Recruiting Establishment, too, an immediate reduction might be made of £14,000 a•year, which would eventually amount to £20,000 a-year. He would propose the reduction of the District Quarter masters, the equalization of the Staff in Ireland with that of England, which would produce a saving of £3OOO a-year. In the Staff Establishments of Ja maica, Gibraltar, Tobago, and the Leeward Islands, lie suggested reductions to the amount of £9OOO a-year. He proposed that the office of Paymaster- General should be abolished ; and he instanced the fact, that in Ireland, while an Honourable Friend of his, the Member for the Queen's County, was in office, an army of sixty thousand men was paid without the assistance of such a character as a Pay master-General. He thought that the Pension List ought to be framed upon a more bqual scale than it was at present, when he saw a larger pension given to the widow of a deceased ACcountant,, than was given to the widow of a General Officer !—(Hear). in the War Office establishment a saving of 12,0001. a-year might be effected by simplifying-the accounts,, by consolidating the allowances with the soldiers . . pay, by 'cutting Ofithedoinmisiariat bepanmenr, ar d making thb contracts altogether ;in affair of regi tnental management. In Ireland he would propose to reduce the Commissariat to half its present amour t. —ln the Foreign Troops' Office, it appeared that an expense of 2001. a-year more than iii 1806 was now incurred. Was this necessary ? Vie salaries of the individuals in the Comptroller's Office amounted now to 8,0001. a-year more than they did in Md. Here a great saving, he thought, might be effected: In the junior department-of the Military College, he proposed, that the present number of 290 boys should be reduced to 229, and that this number should le consolidated into two companies, which would tare 5501. a-year. These, he granted, were petty details, but upon the whole he could propose an accumu lation of such details to the amount of 400,00 Q/. a-year, a sum not to be despised in the present de pressed state of our finances. Ile made a few remarks upon some irregularities that at present existed in the superannuation allowances, several cf which he contended -were prematurely given.— Among the rest he mentioned an Accountant, who, atter eigl:t years' service (thong]] the Statute required tea years), retired upon an allowance of 1:456 a-vear ; while many General Officers, who had devoted the greater part of their lives to the public service, re tired upon less than a third of that sum. The Ho noatable Member then went through the Medical Dapartment, in which he proposed a few reductions, and coatended that an inquiry was necessary into the Superannuation Establishment, if for no other reason than that of seeing why some men r ec ei ve d sOvii,large allowance. as t hey' did through the aid of secreiatluence,• and others received such small pen sions, who had no other friends to interfere for them than the wounds which they received in the service cf their country I—(Hear). He contended that in the Barrack Establishment great savinea might be effect ed, fur he was prepared to chew, that in that,depart ment large sums were most uselessly squaw:err:A.- 11e believed it was in vain to recommend any system of economy to the present Ministers, who seemed de termined to keep within their grasp every kind of power which could be upheld by extravagant expen diture ; and nothing but the vote of that House could make them alter their system. They had constantly endeavoured to throw ridicule on every man who made any proposition that bad the good of the Pub lic for its object; and, on all occasions, to throw dust in the eyes of the House and of the Public. The Hon. Member concluded with moving, " That a Select Committee be appointed to examine into the whole of the Military E..penditure of the country, and to report their opinion thereon to the House." Mr. LONG said, he felt it necessary to correct many errors and mistatements which the Hon. Gen tleman had fallen into respecting Military Accounts. ith regard to his assertion, that gm Paymaster-Ge- • neral was out a public accountant, the very contrary was the fact—he was as great a public accountant as ever existed—(Colonel Davies 'fere exclaimed," Incyr said so !") Na attention had ever been wanting on his part to keep all the accounts clear and regularly made up. With the exception of the accounts of the last year, the whole of the army accounts were already passed, including those of the late war, and when they were all made up, they would he open to the inspection of any Gentleman. The annuity of A:400, alluded to by the Hon. Gentleman, was given to the widow of an accountant who had held 'his office for many years, and who had rendered important ser vices to the Army. When he (Mr. Long) came into office, there were many persons whose offices were sireacrixsi and whose duty Was performed by deputy. All these were since abolished, except that of the office of Clerk to the Paymaster at Malta, and two others; and a satisfactory reason might be given why those offices were not abolished. Colonel DAVIES, in explanation, said, what he had stated was, that the Paymaster-General had net a sufficient contr.,ul over the public accounts. Mr. LONG—" I assure the Honourable Gentle,. man that I have every controul which it is necessary for me to have." Lord PALMERSTON said, he would not now, by any long statement, anticipate the discussion which was to take place the following day on the Army Es timates. He should not answer the attack made by the Hon. Gentleman on the Finance Committees, from whose labours be.asserted, that no public benefit had arisen. He assured the House that he had never seen any set of men exert more industry, or chew roc greater desire to promote the benefit of the Public, than the Gentlemen who compose those Committees. With respect to the increase that had taken place in the Army during the present year, ILe would say, that that man must be grossly ignorant of the internal state of the country, who supposed that the events which took place during the last twelve months did not render such an increase necessary. The Hon. Gen tleman had stated, that by a different modification of Regiments, and a reduction of Field Officers, a saving of. 4:100,000 a-year might be effected in the Army. There aright,, no doubt, be a pecuniary saving, by adopting a kind of organization in the Army, diffe rent from the present; but that advantage would be more than counterbalanced by the deficiency which would immediately take place in our military force. Here the Noble Lord defended the Country Gentle. men of England against the reflections of the Ho nourable Member, as to their being deficient in zeal, and not ready to come forward in defence of their country —for the very contrary was the fact. With respect to the proposal to disband all the dismolinted Cavalrymen, that could not be done without ing the efficiency of our force; for it was always ne cessary to have a greater number of men than of horses. On the Cavalry was principally imposed the duty of guarding the Metropolis, and it was always necessary to have an , additional number of men at tached to them. The Honourable Gentleman com plained of the number of Cavalry kept on the coasts; but he ought to recollect, that they were engaged in the necessary duty of 9:iecking-eon:raband trade, and that some part of the force must have time to rest, while others were engaged in this arducu; ser vice:, As to the Honourable Gentlcroaa's complaint, of their being too many Field ()dicers, this was a subject on which man/ cliifer.:nces.ot opinion exit ed; and those different opinions did .no foim a good Parliamentary ground for .the present motion. He had also objected to the Waggon Vain ; but ;f that establishment did not exist, the duty must be done by the Cavalry or by farmers' horses; in either of which cases, great inconvenience would Le pc:- alai $ 1 i 1 1 1 1