Star. — London, England, 1820-07-11 00:00:00

mighty power, which . is wisely vested by the law, but which demands a balance, and he is therefore covered' all over with the armour of the law. Now was there ever a case more clearly of-this descrip tion ? I do not mean to speak invidiously, or to make any chargts; but only to point out the situa tion of the Illustrious Accused. She has to contend against tbeCtown . and its Ministers, and against all the powers: and influences they possess. :IQ such a case, my Lords, putting all :right or precedent out of the question, I would most earnestly advise your Lordships* to give the list of the witnesses, unless.yon can shew me who offered you this advice. that by doing so you would disturb the balance of justice, and confer a power to weaken and disappoint the a c -. cusation however just. Shew me this and I am silent, but you'cannot shew this without bring prepared to repeal the Statute of King William, because I ask even less than by that Statute is compblsory on the Crown. After the list of witnesses in a case of High Treason has been delivered, though a fatal omission is after wards discovered, it cannot be repaired ; and the witnesses, though by accident omitted, cannot be examined ; but in a case so anomalous, and where there is no law to demand such proceeding, it ought not to be required ; but what objection then remains to a list of those that hare at present been determined on' The Noble Earl has.said that he should prefer a pioce 4 ll47 without interruption, but that if thell lustriotii Accused, after the witnesses for the Bill had beeuesaained, should desire time to contradict them, Gonlothid that it should be refused, but that indul gence might come too late. The list of the witnesses lsgiven, not kierely that those for the Crown may be contra.lic ed,. but that, L. der cross-examination, if they are false witnesses, tl ey may be made to con-, tradict themselves. My Lords, I pray you to con sider this—the Noble Earl has said that the question is not closed, and that it may be re-considered. It appeals to me to deserve re-consideration. We are phtced in the view of the Public, and I know we shall fulfil our duty. The judicial character of the House of Lords supports all the other tribunals of justice, and the attendance of the Judges . would be of no va lue here, unless our superior character were held sa cred by the people, which „I hope and trust it ever will be: My Lords, I have not made these obierva tions from any desire to disappoint or obstruct the course we are engaged in. When the Court assem• hies I will do my duty, as if all the angels in HEA VEN were taking notes of whatever passed through my mind on the subject ; but I wish to be placed in a situation in which I can d.) this duty with safety." The LORD CHANCELLOR was satisfied that their Lordihips, would come to the consideration of this important question divested of every bias that was calculated to injure justice—he s:ished to GOD that the same sate of feeling prevailed out of the House. It was quite shocking to reflect upon the sta:e of feeling out of doors upon the subject. One of their Lordships could find no analogy between tl:is and any other case, except that of a charge for high Treason, and even in this instance the Noble Lord had been found to y l i ) r e e e ! n up the analogy. He (the Lord Chncellor) bad in a situation where it became his duty to furnish lists of witnesses to de fendants, and he remembered, in four or five cases of charges for High Treason, he had to furnish a list of 4.50 persons, who were to be called in to give evidence. He begged their Lordships to recollect, that as the law now stood, a party was not at liberty to call any witness whose name did not appear in the list ; and such was the extraordinary effect of this rule, that if a witness were to swear that all their Lordships were present at a certain meeting, unless their names were in the list, not one of .their Lord ships could be called to disprove the allegation. In the proceeding before their Lordships, however, an opportunity was furnished of calling such witnesses as-it might be judged necessary to adduce; therefore the analogy between the vases completely failed. Unless, then, the House could strip themselves of the functions they possessed; unless they were pre pared to say, that no Select or General Committee could recede such a Bill as the pri:,..mt, without in capackating the Committee or t! House from le gislating on the Bill, there was . . weight in the ob jection.* urged on the other side. If the inquiry was to he public, and GOD For' that it should not, he would ask for the prods: of a single instance in which a list of witnesses given to the defendant. It might be proper to postpone the hearing of the defence, not merely because it was requested, but because it might be necessary; and he was confident every man would say, as he should, that the evidence must not go on until an opportunity was given to ascertain the L iviracters of those • who were exa mined. This was a case to be decided by general principles alone, and he would ask their Lordships whether, if they were to establish such a precedent now, they could proceed in future in the same manner, which their ancestors had air: up to the present day ? 'fhe third Resolution was then agreed to, as were also five others, in substance a: follows : 4. That Counsel should be heard on the second reading In support of the Bill. 5. That the King's Attorney-General should be informed of Iteoalution. 6. That the !louse should be called over at ten o'clock in the morning, un the 17th of August. The LORD CHANCELLOR said, on the passing of this Resolution, that it was scarcely necessary for him to observe, that the Order would be enforced. 7. That no Lord should absent himself from the House, with out leave, during the progress of these proceedings. 8. That the Lord Chancellor should be directed to send letters to all absent Lords, to acquaint them that the House was to be called over on the 17th of August. Lord ERSKINE afterwards moved to take the question for affording a list of the witnesses to her Majesty into tonsideration on Friday, which was agreed to.—Adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS. The !WEAKEN. took the Chair at four o'clock. Mr. joissaow, from the Office of the Chief Secretary for Ire land,appeared at the Bar with certain Parrs, being an Aceeent of the Anieuet of the Grand Jury Assessments in Ireland.— Laid on the table. Mr. BLACKBURN preseoted Petitions from Birmingham and Manchester, praying for a free Trade to India.--ordered lie on the table. On the mo tion of Sig H. Palmitin the House resolved itself into a Committee on the jrish Tithe Leases Bill; and the se- ' t ort was ordered to be reaived forthwith, and to be taken into 1 1 further consideration this day Six months. Sir WILLIAM CURTIS moved the Order of the Day for receiving the Report of the Leaden Militia Bill; which having been brought up, was ordered to be recommitted to-morrow. Colonel DAVIES ' palmated a Petition from Richard Wil. " by _ lihnee,were That t. Order of ple Day foe the . woe of Arnwtiong Janis be discharke4" as it ammo! dot he was at present confined in , N!wgatio l / 4 `lie should plebe* bave shortly a Peddon to sub nut from ilbat individual, paying for the lenity .cif the Hope, which he dangle' meld OS be ostaided to bin), as be was •?lited to act under The Order of t h e _ Day was then discharged ;as was abo that for the attendance of the witnesses, Manners, Esq. and . William Atter. . . Mr. WYNN agreed that the indulgence of.the House ought to be extended to Armstrong Jarvis, as it appeared that he was not a free agent in the proceedings. The Honourable Member then moved, " That the Order of the Day be read for moving the committal of Sir William Manners to his Majesty's Jail of Newgate." . - Sir JA MRS GRAHAM contended, that it was impossible Sir William Manners could have been aware of the proceeding's of the. House, having left his residence before the Speaker a warrant reached Buckminster. He therefore theight it would be a most severe measure to punish him, under sorb dream stances, and should move that the Order of the Day be dlocharged. Dr. PHILLI MORE said, Sir William Manners had est the Order of the House at defiance, and he ought to be made to suffer for it. The motion for a commitment did not faded, Sir William Manners only—it likewise affected Armstrong Jarvis{ and nothing could be more unjust than to imprimis the oerrent, while the master, who had been the principal offender, was 01- lowed to be at large with impunity. Impartial justide ought to be done, without considering the rank of the parties. Mr. TENNYSON said, that warrants had been served on the several witnesses whose testimony was conddered indispens able. Those witnesses were now in attendance ; but it appeared that the parties who had summoned theni did not attacEao much importance to trick evidence as they at first stated;fot they evinced no disposition to have them examined. His persuasion, therefore, was, that such being the case, it would be a severe measure to punish thole on the opposite side in this affair, The SPEAKER called the Honourable Member to order, and asked, if he ever knew a case where the authority of -the Speaker's warrant was questioned, merely no account of the na ture of the evidence to be produced is the affair at issue? Such a principle would tend to overturn the whole of the Statute Law of the land, and he could not help again stating, that the I fonour able ,„lemer was quite out of order in advancing it. Mr. TENNYSON said a few words **warty to the same im port as before, and was again reminded from the Chair of being out of order. A short conversation then took place on the subject, between Mr. liVrss, Co!onel WOOD, Mr. CALCILATT, Mr. GOEERURN, Mr. WROTTESLEY, and Sir JAMES Macxix.roan; after which the ori ginal question was carried without a division, and the SPEAKER was ordered to issue his warrant forthwith for the committal of Sir William Manners to Newgate. Mr. LITTLE'CON presented a Petition from the Master Manufacturers of Staffordshire, prlying that the Duties on (Una and Earthenware exported to Ireland should be discontinued. The Honourable Member at the same time cave notice,thst he should move that the words " China and Earthenware" be erased from the Bill pending on the subject. Sir JOHN N EWI'ORT said a few words, and the Petition was ontered to lie on the table. Sir W I ILIA M SCOTT moved the Order of the Day for the second reading of the Sea Offences Bill. Sir J AMES MACKINTOSH sutgested to the lionourabk and Learned 3lember the propriety of allowing more time for deliberation on the subject. Ile therefore wished that the Bill should be printed, aid-in the hands of Members, before the se cond reading took place. lie understood the object of the Bill was to extend to offences committed on the sea, the punishment awarded to offences on land. Sir WILLIAM SCOTT-disclaimed any intention to precipi tate the Bill, and thought that sufficient time bad been allewid to put the House in possession of its merits, . Sir ISAAC COFFIN thought this one of the molt necessary . and Important measures that could be proposed to the delibera tion of the House. - Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH concurred with the,Homono able Member, that this was necessary measure, bat certainly not one of the most necessary or Important that could be sub mitted to the House. The Bill war, then read a second time, and ordered to be committed on Wednesday. Sir GEORGE MIA. moved the Order of the Day for the second reading of the Irish Paupers Removal Bill. . Mr.' W. l'A RNELL adverted to the hardships to which Irish paupers were exposed on their removal from England. He said, a doubt existed whether the children of Irish pose were liable to be removed, though some eminent Counsel • had given. an opinion that they were. He thought it might be eve" dient for the Irish Govermnint to grant small sums of money towards providing for those paupers, on their return to their own couotty, as they were left entirely destitute, and had no paro chial relief to resort to. Sir JOHN NEWPORT thought that ‘ the principle of the Bill would operate to the prejudice of the Inhabitants of thine districts where the paupers should land. The Bill pr o that they should disembark at four different ports an the people in the vicinity of these ports were to be burde ned with a temporary provision for them in the first instance—while the paupers, finding themselves so well off, would be induced to fix a permanent residence in the neighbourhood, and thereby add to the grievance. Sir JOSEPH YORKE said he should have no objection to suppert the Bill if it contained .any •clause to keep the Irish paupers at home when they got there. lie hoped the Honour abL, Member had made some provision for this. He assured the Honourable Member that this would be a moot desirable object, as he was frequently annoyed in the streets by the im promities of persons whom he knew from their brogue to be Irish paupers !—(.if laugh). Mr. /I ARBO RD supported the Rill, and entered into a state ment to show the heavy borthens which Irish paupers occasisseal to the metropolitan parishes. Mr. C. GRANT said a few words ; and, the Bill having been read a second time, the Report was ordered to be received od WeJinesday next. Mr. BEN NETT -moved for a Return of the number of Men who are now receiving Pensions on accoset of liimiesea The Hoe. Goodman, in introducing his motion, took ems*, to advert to the services rendered by the Optbalmic Insti m = •Slr T. ACLARD thought it , would- be proper to . whether the cases were curable or not before pensions for bad ness were grimed. It would be wrong that a person young rigorous should receive a pension after he had been re . Ms sight, in a ease which was considered incurable. Lord PALMERSTON said, that due care had been taken is awarding pensions, that the objects should be such a• were en-' titled to them. . Sir JOSEPH YORKE did not outsider Sir' W. Adams en titled to any greater praise for successful practice in cases of Opthalmia, than any ordinary surgeon: Ile had selected only such cases as he theoght might easily be cured. Mr. BASHAM vindicated the mode of treatment adopted by Sir W. Adams.---Motion agreed to. . . • •lAST INDIA COSIPAPIT'S VOLUNTEERS. • Mr. CANNING, in moving that thelleport of the East India Company's Volunteers Bill be brought up, entered into some fresh explanations respecting the measure. He stated that the East India Compaay'w Volunteers had existed from 1793 or 1794, till tht renewal of the. Charter .• They had been discontinued since ; but for their revival a large contributiontad already been made from the commercial funds of that Company, so that one of the chief objections to the Bill was removed. The first duty of these Vo lunteers would certainly be to protect tile property deposited in the warehouses of the Company in case of any sudden disturbance in the Metropolis. The value of that property amounted to no less than thir teen millions ; the Company's own goods being worth eight millions, and those of individuals within its warehouies five millions sterling.. The necessity of protecting such an. amount of property against any sudden emergency must therefore be apparent. consideration might also To this, another important , the sailing of the last Nips std'' _ next fleet, the Ostnpan? were In laying in their provisions. Some of. military tutture, so that about t* November, there were in the Company's less thin 25,000 stand of muskets, It was clear that such a depots in case of diittithance, should be carefully guarded, particularly by those who otherwise would be idling in crowds round those warehouses. The Bill stipu lated besides, that after protecting their own pro perty, that corps should be disposable through every part of the. -Metropolis, like any-other- -Volunteer Corps. These were the outlines of the measure., About eight hundred men, or one-third of the esta blishment, wotild be raised, equipped, and instructed, without the expense of one farthing to the State.—, What objection could be raised against a Bill which' tended to add so much to the public tranquillity, without increasing the burdens of the country ? Mr. BERNAL impressively argued against the proposition to raise a corps of this nature in a - period of profound peace, conceiving that it would 'be quite as just to raises separate corps of Volunteers to pro tect the Bank or the South Sea Company, or any other commercial institution, as that of the East India Company, whose property might be fully pro tected by the. Civil Power, without any such este- Ablishment. Ile protested against any-establishment of this nature, upon-constitutional grounds, con ceiving that in the year 1820 it was not necessary to 'raise a corps of 800 men for the defence of property, end that if such a corps should be established, it Oust be regarded as a part of what might be deem the Military Policeof the Metropolis—(Hear, hear). Sir R. WILSON asked, whether this corps would be subject to the Articles of War? Mr. - CANNING replied, that this.corps would be subject to the same discipline as other Volunteer Corps. The Report was agreed to, and the Bill was or dered to be read a third time to-morrow. LIMEREC& ELECTION. On the motion that Henry D'Esterre should be brought to the Bar in order to be discharged agree ably to his Petition, Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH rose, te'said, not with a view to oppose the motion, but in order to suggest for serious consideration the condition in which this unfortunate individual was placed by his •own conduct. He did not mean to interpose between `this individual and the proposed lenity of the House. This individual admitted that he was guilty of pre varication on oath, and as he was a member of a liberal profession, it would be for those who com posed that piofession to consider whether it were fitting that he should be allowed any longer to be long to such a profession ? But, without desiring to aggravate the suffering which the reflections of his, own mind must inflict upon this individual, he must observe upon that which was material to the Public. This individual occupied a high judicial station in Ireland, and was it fitting that, after his own confes sion of guilt, he should be allowed to fill such a station ?—( Hear, hear). Mr. DAWSON said, that he was one of the Mem hers of the Committee before which the 'prisoner had been guilty of gross prevarication, and he could not help saying that such a person should not be allowed to-remain in any judicial station. Mr. J. DALY said, that be presented the Petition of the prisoner because he felt it his duty to do so, as that-Petition was couched in language respectful to the House ; but that he had no desire whatever that the Petitioner should continue to occupy a judi cial office. Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH expressed a doubt whether the prisoner should be released without some Authentic assurance that he should be removed from the office of Recorder of Limerick.- Mr. J. DALY said, that as the office which the prisoner occupied was subject to annual election, and As that election must be sanctioned by the Lord Lieu tenant, there could be no reason to apprehend the re appointment of the Petitioner. Mr. C. GRANT remarked, that there could be no doubt whatever of the attention of the Lotd Lieute nant to the decision of that House, upon any new election for the Recordership of Limerick. BANKES observed, that it would be obvi ously improper and indecent to allow his continuance in a judicial or any other office of trust or consequence. Mr. DALY thought the prisoner should resign. Lord-CASTLEREAGH said, after what had been stated by his Right Hon. Friend, it was quite clear that the time was not distant when Mr. IYEsterre wottlcl prUbably be depriVed of his office, and there fore more. was not necessary to be done at present. The motion was then agreed to, and the Petitioner orderedlo be brought to the Bar.—Upon appearing, The SPEAKER, addressed him as follows: • l' Henry D'Eaterre, you have been reported to this House, 'by 'a. Select Committee, appointed to determine en the merits of.; realm presented to this House against the Return feu the city of Limerick, as having been guilty of gross prevarication.— . For this. °Entice you have been committed to his Majesty's Jail 'of Newgate. Your Petitiesi, praying to be released (rum farther confinement, has been received, and you are now brought to the Bar of this House, 'in order that you• may be reprimanded and discharged. If it were my duty on this occasion to repri- , mend a person in a lower station in life--a person half-educafed,l 'and perhaps half-ignorant of the import of the solemo-obliptisp of an oath, it might be necessary for me to enlarge on the intim,. character, and consequences of the offence —en offence which, , going to divest evidence of all truth and justice, differs more in. ' a legal chap in a moral poiiit of view from wilful perjury. But when I set before me a person of higher rank—a man of educa-. tion, himself holding a high judicial situation, it is impossible fee ' me to feel called upon longer to expatiate on the enormity of the, crime which -you have committed, or of the infamy and die. grace which** has brought upon you: Your own mind *On wisest more severe and-bitter reproaches than Could my wterds Psi( which lam master. To these I leave you, and now proceed !tit communicate the order of the House, which is, that you Henry. D'Esterre, now discharged ; and you are hereby dis. be Charged, .n payment of your foes." Itlr.D'Esterre then withdrew ; and, on the motion of Lord CASTLEREAGH;the'Speaker's Addtesslnhirit *as ordered to be inserted upon the Journals amidst,' it cry of " Hear, heir." IRISH SPIRITS. Oh the motion that the Rube . Licence (Ireispd) ant, - 116iAt . . . . it read a second time .... • • Mr. MARRY Ali said, that by the Standing Ordpr iiiitig passed, this Bill should be submitted to a Committee * OW A conversation passed between ford Carrtaiiitix, OM g: Newroar and others; after which the Bill was ' read a sobbed time, and committed fee teksnorrow. . . _ ., . MILITIA' CLOTHING. - • ' • ` . On the motion for the committal ofthe•Mllllli.Clothlig Bill, Colonel WOOD askiid whether, as this wus osiannual Bin, it was imended that the Colos* . of Militia should have ttr.ssiper. bite* the dothineef that CCoorrppss according to the ad syaicin ? _ lard PALMERSTON observed, that it was deemed impre- • to allow the is Colonels in priwkle new doaing for it respective corps, while there was such a quantity or cloth kin the stores; and that mita that clothing were exhausted, it i not intended to resort to the old system. [he Howe baying resolved into a Committle, the several ads were agreed to Without an observation. the House resuhted, and the Report was ordered to be re- Fed to-morrow. _ tatit BILL. Upon the tooth* of Lord Cesrizbewon, that the house resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House upon the Alien Bill, ' Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH rose, not for the pur pbse Of entering into any general discussion of the merits of this question, but to Move that it be an instruction to the Committee to consider certain clauses which he should submit to the Howe. The last time this Bill "was introdeced to the House, in the year 1818, his Majesty's Ministers had proposed it upon no other ground than that there were thirty: eight French exiles, and- three French nen tpaper established in the Netherlands. This grourd deemed sufficient for withdrawing the protection ~ f tte laws from 22,000 foreigners who were living in this country. His Majesty's Ministers hid become more confident from success, and they had now brought forward a Bill without the shadow ot colour of a reason, and without even an insintiatian or inti mation that any reason existed. Upon the first in troduction of this Bill some ambiguous phrases had been used, which were as applicable to any period since the Christian era as to die present times. Upon the second reading he had prepared himself to answer any arguments which might be urged by his Majesty's Ministers, but net a single reaani was offered in support of a measure unprecedented in the history of this country. Upon that occasion a speech had been delivered against the measure, which was nor less distinguished by its solidity t h an its bril liancy, and which proved the power of a - superior mind to give novelty to an exhausted subject. A most lame and impotent reply to that' speech had indeed been attempted, and it was contended the Bill was necessary, because, by possibility, our do mestic tranquillity might he disturbed by foreign incendiaries. He would not dwell upon the ab dity of supposing, that, under existing cirenITIVtaIICCS, incendiaries from Seville, or Berlin, or Paris, "ere likely to avail themselves of tumults at Glasgow or Manchester. This miserable interest for continuing the measure had been exposed by ail the powers of brit and reason, and had been justly held up to the scorn and derision of the House. Under these cir cumstances it was far from his intention to do what was totally uncalled for by any arguments that had. been offered on the other side, namely, to enter into any general distassion of this question,- He believed it was the object of his Majesty's Minis ters to wear on' the patience of their opponents, and to persist in offering no arguments in support of the measure till- out of mere lassitude no opposition should be made to it. However paradoxical it might appear, this Bill was likely to creep on till it became part of.the law of the land, merely because the ob jections to it were never answered. UpOn the pre':ent occasion be should make no further obsetvations upon this most tyrannical and execrable measure, dn. so he should never cease to call it, but he should proceed to move that it be an instruction to drieCom mittee of the whole House to receive ank consider Certain clauses, which might in some degtee mitigate its effects. As this was a Bill to.continue and atr.end the 56th Geo. 111. no amendment could be received in the Committee ; the only course ., open to him, therefore, was to move an instruction to enable the Committee to consider these Amendments, and if it were consistent with the forms and placer:l . ns of the House, he should move also that the words of the Amendments be put upon the Journals of the House, as an appeal to posterity against this most unconstitutional measure. His first Amendment re lated to the appeal of the Privy Council. In the Alien Bill of 1814, a sort of appeal was given, by which the Privy Council was enabled to consider any ex cuse offered on the part of the Alien ; but as .it bad been held that the Alien could neither examine wit.- ' nesses Dor be heard by Counsel, the clause was in effect a mere nullity, and a mockery upon the person aggrieved. The object of his first Amendment, therefore, was to enable the Mien to defend himself against any charges which might be made against him, either in person or by . Ctinneel, and to examine witnesses before the Privy Couneil for that purpose. The second claw which he had to propose, would put the sincerity of his Majesty's Ministers to the test, 'since he.presumed the object of this was to give an extraordinary power to Government, to enable them toprotect the country against .the machinations of dangerous persons ; and since it was not pretended that the measure applied to foreigners of whose pacific character and intentions no doubt could be entertained, his next clause went to protect men of this character froth the operatibn of the Bill—to exempt foreigners who had given every pledge of attachment to the country, and of obedie n ce to tbdi laws, which the possession of property, and the most unexceptionable conduct could give—(Hear, The clause would exempt all foreigners who had set tled in this country before 1814. He had chosen that period as a test and criterion of honesty, because the clause would not extend to Napolionists or Jacobins who did.not leave France before that period, nor to any' class of men who could be supposed to be de sirous of disturbing the peace of the country. It would effectually exclude all whq were likely to agi tate the tranquillity of the country from protection; l and whom, on the other hand, would.it exempt from the operation of the Bill? It would exempt mere chants of great fortune and character—it would ex 4 empt numerous families of the highest respectability— it would exempt ingenious artists, useful and peace able.artitans;.whOse time and talents were devotee -not more to their own advantage than to the benefic and prospetity*, of the country. The third clause - , which it was intention to propose, was Of -Still -greater importance, and one to which. he would take the liberty of soliciting some ittentitin -from every Member of the House. It bad refertnie to a subject, the discussion of which he haddeeply lamented, and upon which, for many -reasons, he end' hitherto abstained from making a single iibiervationi prin cipally because he wished to Ole:aerie that tem per,• which it was so highly necessary to maintain in a proceeding where the House _might be called upon to exercise its judicial functioni;—(Hear, heat). t was most important that the character of •House shotihl not be brought into Suspicion., or Eamon, complaining that the Bank otinglend bed available* be added. -between a ass invention of bb for the prevandon offaligety, without the artiing ,of the giving his any nsmoneredon , 4.4l4 us th Th at'll:de. the jtabk . of layimg lir. NOWT HERON aided Kole aere, that lb under- attiodiar wain mows. forw s os e anedmids . sposka were of a - 11311 bad imbed his warrant, now in iamb* of the lininant g Mouth of November dum b sod that witnesses who had been sannoora voardsooses not less by I* HbimQverela atpindance : He should more, *Tint the bla c k s o the r arms • 1 1 1 1 1 A 1 1 1 1 • 1 1 3 1 1 ' 1 4 1 -1 1 1 .