Star. — London, England, 1808-02-17 00:00:00

ne re OS Se is 11 0 V C t t .1 1 • • This daywas published, price Ss. in boards, ALETTER to a MEMBER of the present PAR. LLAMENT, on the AirrzcLes of Cnriaor against Map. luia WZLIASLLT, which have been laid before the lime et Qpnsmons. By LAWRENCE DUNDAS CAMPBELL, Esq. Printed for T. Cadell and W. Davies, Strand. Of whom may be bad, by the same Author, the 2d Edition of A Kerte to the Strictures of the Edinburgh Review, on the Foreign Policy of the Marquis Wetxtss.e2's Administration in India ; comprising an Examination of the late Transactions in the Cosmetic. Price tis. AMERICA WASHINGTON, DEC. 2S. We have had the pleasure of conversing with a re spectable and intelligent Gentleman just arrlvedf rom Detroit. He states that the prevailing opinion at the British sculements in that neighbourhood is, that there will be a war between this country and Great Britain. In corroboration of this opinion, he states, that there are now at Fort Amhersburg, a British post about 18 miles from Detroit, at least 2000 Indians, almost exclusively warriors. That they are all armed, and supported at the expence of the British, and with great liberality • that their arms are guns, refles , and tomahawks ; and that since August there have con stantly there between two and 3000. In case of war, it is expected that under the auspices of the British, a general massacre will take place, for which they are held in readiness ; and from which none but those within she fort can expect to escape. Should such a nefarious measure be resorted to, our countrymen may rest assured that a dreadful vengeance will be taken on its perpetrators. PARLIAMEIV7'ARr PROCEEDINGS. HOUSE OF LORDS, FEBRUARY 16. Earl Onslow took the Oaths and his seat. The Exchequer-Bills Bill was read a second time, and commit ted for Thursday. Adjourned till to-morrow, (this day) when their Lordships go in procession to Westminster Abbey. • HOUSE OF COMMONS. A Person from the Treasury presented a Copy of sti Report of she Commissioners for Auditing Public Accounts to the Lords of the Treasury, by order of the House. Ordered to be on the Table. A Person from the Post Office presented an account of the se veral packets employed from Milford Haven, &c. dec. to Lreland. Ordered to lie on the table. The CUANCLLLOR of the EICHIQUIIt presented an account of the Licences granted by the Treasury for foreign Trading, since t h e c ommencement of hostilities, distinguishing the months and y e ars. —Ordered to lie on the table, and to be printed. Mr. MOILDAUNT presented a List of the Offices and Appoint ments in the Naval Asylum, with the salaries and emoluments of wig department. Ordere d lie on the table, and to be printed. The SECRETARY at WAR presented an account of the effective. strength of the Militia, with the number of deserters from the Army in Greatßritain and Ireland, from the Sth of July, 1807, to the Ist of January, 18011.—Ordered to he on the. Table. The Report of the Committee of Stiiys and Means was brought up. The Resolution for granting 10,510,0001. on Exchequer Bills was agreed to, and a Bill ordered. The Bank Loan Bill, the Unclaimed Dividend Bill, and the Sur veyor of Petty Customs Bill, were read a second time, and order ed to be committed on Thursday. Sir Czauxes Pout moved for the Reports of the Commissio ners of Naval Revision that bad been approved of, and their sug gestions ordered to be adopted.—Ordered.--He then gave notice of his intention to move for certain Reports relative to the Naval Asylum on Friday. SIR ROME POPHAM. - • _ Mr. Dyer gave notice, that on Thursday he meant to movt for several Papers relative to the Transactions imputed to Sir H. Popham. Mr. Lushington gave notice, that en tillb same day he meant tc move for Papers relative to the same subject. DUBLIN UNIVERS*. The following Members were drawn as the Committee to try tht merits of the Dublin University Ection Petition. Right Hon. J. C. Villiers George Brookes, Esq. Sir T. B. Thomson, Bart. Sir T. Fetherstone Bart. Hon. W. Elliot John Kingstone, David Davenport, Esq. Edward Taylor Henry Fynes, Esq. George Hibbert, Esq. Sir W. Oglander, Bart. Sir T. E. Winnington, Bart. Hon. J. Simpson NOMINIELL lion. George Ponsonby George M. Baring, Esq. LORD-LIEUTENANT OF NORFOLK. Mr. WINDHAM adverted to the total vacancy in the appoint ment of a Lord Lieutenant for the County of Norfolk, since the death of the Marquis of Townshend, and to the inconvenience that resulted from that circumstance. It was improper to be with out such an officer, because many duties belonged to the situation such as the appointment of Militia Officers, ate. Ste. It was, bee sides, particularly unsatisfactory in time of war. He hoped there fore, that the Noble Lord on the other side (Castlereagh) wool( tell when this interregnum was to end, or what arrangements were in progress on the subject. The matter, he thought, could not be difficult to settle, because Government could not be puzzled in their choice from the number of candidates, as few could be qualified in every respect for the situation. Lord CASTILLIMAOH Wit not prepared to make any particular communication on the subject ; but no inconvenience could. be felt, as he understood the duty of Lord Lieutenant, during a va• cam, devolved upon the Vice-Lieutenant. MALT A Si) PENSION DUTY SILL. On the motion for She third reading of the Malt and Pension Duty Bill, Mr. Hoene objected to the clause which empowered chi Treasury to grant warrants, in certain cases, to remit the payment of the shilling and sixpence duties on certain offices. His objec tion was, that it was unconstitutional le give to the Crown the discretion of remitting a tax. In this objection he was supported by Sir Than Newlyn . , Mr. WINDIIAI4, and Lord H. ParTt. Mr. Hossissote, Mr. Rose, and the CnAtecezzoa of the Ea- C 111121.111 argued, on the other hand. that this was nothing mon than legalizing a practice which bad beihre been resorted to irre gularly. Ms. HOINTR moved that the clause bt left out. The Motion was negatived, without a division. Sir JoaN New TORT, however, succeeded in an amendment which he proposed, that their pay and pensions should be paid net to the supeaunnuated officers and widows of officers, Sec. in the land set s vice, as well as the naval service. Several verbal amendments were then made, and the Bill was read a third time and passed. RVENIAN MEDIATION. Mr. WHITBREAD rose, to move for some Papers preparatory to that motion, of which he had given notice for Monday se'nnight. It appeared to him that all the papers for which he should move were so evidently necessary, that if he had not re ceived intimation that some of them would be op posed, it could never have occurred to him that it would have been necessary to preface his motion with any observations. He considered it his public duty to call for the production of those documents, which wuuld throw light upon a subject that he thought most necessary to bring before the serious discussion of Parliament. He thought there appeared to be too great an indisposition in the Gentlemen on the other :tie to produce those public papers and documents. It appeared to him, that publicity was the very es sence of our Constitution : and that whatever might be the practice of other countries, the conduct of our Government should be open to Parliament and to the world. He knew there were some -- documents could not safely be produced. cases were merely exceptions to the Majesty's Ministers had thought it ► official papers on this'subject before the object of his motion would be to supply tu,. _ ciel.cs in the communication of which the House was now in possession. The first papersshe would move for were the documents or official papers from his Majesty's Principal Secretaries of State to his Mi nister at Vienna, relative to the mediation of that Court. The next was a copy of the minutes or ex tracts of the conversation between Lord Hutchinson and the Emperor of Russia, on the T3d of August, 1807. When he gave his notice, some Gentlemen had complained of - the impropriety of asking for those communications which were derived from the conver sation of Sovereigns ; there were some Gentlmen, however, on the other side, that were not able to perceive this impropriety, when upon a former occa sion they produced, of their own accord, the opinion of Sir Arthur Paget about the Archduke Charles and the Austrian Cabinet. These were opinions that it was very proper for a foreign Minister to transmit to his Court, but which were generally conceived to be of that description of official papers which ought not to have been made public. A Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Canning) had appeared to set him. self forward as the champion of foreign Sovereigns, and to think, that if the foreign Ministers of England were obliged to wait in the anti-chamber, while the Minister of 'France passed by them and obtained his private audience, this was no subject with which that House should bi made acquainted. It appeared to him, that it was no violation of public duty, 'or of private confidence, to publish that conversation which the Emperor of Russia had held with one of the first heroes of Europe, Lord Hutchinson. That Noble man, who to the most conspicuous military merit joined the most punctilious honour, had not hesitated to publish their conversation to the world—and as it had been thus already made public, he could not con ceive any possible danger from having it laid before Parliament in such a shape, as to throw light upon the subject that was to be discussed. The subject of this. conversation had been conveyed to Ministers in a dispatch from Lord G. L. Gower, and therefore it could be easily produced. Lord Hutchinson had expressly stated, that the Emperor of Russia had asked him, after the battle of Friedland, whether peace was not absolutely necessary, to which he. as obliged to agree. If it was supposed so highly indis creet to publish such communications as these, it must also be supposed that it war grossly indiscreet to publish, in the beginning of the present war, the private conversation which took place be tween Bonaparte and Lord Whitworth. All that passed at the Thuilleries in the face of the other fo reign Ministers might have been published ; but the remainder was a conversation at least as private and confidential as that which had taken place between the Emperor of Russia and Lord Hutchinson. The Gentlemen on the other side might as well say, that there would have been great indiscretion in publish. ing to the world the conversations which took place between Mr. Jackson and the Crown Prince of Den mark ; and yet the Crown Prince did not see the least impropriety in giving the substance of those conver sations to all Europe. The Crown Prince had asked Mr. Jackson, what he could offer in exchange for the honour of Denmark ? After stating the varioui papers which he intended to move for, the Honourable Mem ber concluded by moving for " Copies or Extracts of the Dispatches from his Majesty's Principal Secretary of State to his Minister at Vienna. respecting the Mediation of that Cabinet." Lord G. L. GOWER said, that as his name had been alluded to in the foregoing observations, he begged leave to say a few words on the subject of those two dispatches which had been alluded to. His answer to Genernl Budbcrg was the first ; and that. arose, he said, from the following circumstance : M. Alopeus had written to the Right Hon. the Se cretary of State for Foreign Affairs, pressing strongly for military succours, and pointing out different places where a diversion might be made with good effect : this letter his Right Hon. Friend transmitted to him in his public capacity, with a note of the de termination of his Majesty's Government : and Gene ral Budberg having pressed him on the same subject, as soon as he received the dispatch of his Right Hon. Friend, he waited on General Budbcrg, and chewed him the dispatch, which he did not think it necessary to accompany by a note, which was the reason that no note had been delivered on the subject. At that time the Empersir of Russia was on the point of set ting off from Memel to St. Petersburgh, and he was preparing to follow him, which was the reason of his sheaving the original dispatch, instead of giving a c Ipy of the note. As to the copy of the communica. fon of the conversation between the Emperor of Russia and Lord Hutchinson, he always looked on that as a private confidential communication from, the Noble Lord to him. He had, during his stay at Me mel, observed, that the Noble Lord was much in the , confidence of the Emperor of Russia, and thought he might from that derive some inforniation which might be of service to this country. He, therefore, when the Noble Lord made the ccannunicatienAn, him, thought it proper and necessary to sedd it hoinef but as he held it to be purely confidential, and not fit' to make a record in a public office, he had not .sent it in his public dispatches , but in a prieate letter to his Right Hon. Friend the Secretary cf State. Mr. Secretary CANNING said, that from the man , . ner in which the Honourable Gentleman had argued in support of his motion for the production of those papers, it would seem as if he had expressed a deter. mination to resist producing the greatest part ofthem. . The contrary was, however, the case ; and the Hon. Gentleman might now see that great part of his art-' gument was useless, after the information which had just been given by his Noble Friend. The copy of the communication, which was asked for in the motion of the Honourable Gentleman, was what was con tained in the note of M. Alopeus, and stated diffe rent districts of countries in which the people were attached to the cause of the allies, and would be glad to join them if a diversion were made in their favour. This would be seen to be a sufficient cause fir refus- ing to give that communication, because it would be * difficult to take three sentences together without din covering some portion of the people who had thus shewn their disposition towards the cause of the al lies ; and every one must be sensible that all those districts were now under the iwn bigui of the Ruler of make a disclosure of their names ' inevitably draw on them his se - whole purport, however, was of Russia, to which his Ma. an answer. The Honourable that his view was to ascertain had done all in their power t 0.... .... us procuring, peace. He believed it would appear they had, when it was con.idered in what a situation they were left by their predecessors in o ffi ce. Many f the papers moved for, he had not the smallest ob• as on su o rao urab c l e e s jGetontlemato b n e , s in m g o p ti r ot u w ce as d. for O c n o e pie d s :1 1 an y e given by the late Ministers of affording military suc cours. Some of the papers, he laid, would chew, that more had been promised than he had stated, When this subject was so amply discussed on a former occasion in the last Session. Lord Hutchinson, he would find, had made such promises ; and at the com mencement of the war between Russia and France, dispatches had been sent by the late Ministers, most earnestly desiring Russia to march her armies in sup port of Prussia ; and the most pressing instances were made to the Court of Stockholm on the same ac count. If Russia was merely considered in the cool view of an ally, surely the Ministers of this • country were not entitled to call for such extraordinary exer tions on the part of Russia ; unless it was their ac tual intention to co-operate cordially and heartily in the same contest. These proofs, however, were sufh tient, in his.opinion, to substantiate the case, that ex• pectations of military succour from • this country had held tot. After they called on Russia to come forward with her arrain, a considerable period of rime elapsed without any aid being given by the Govern ment of this country—during which, applications for both military and pecuniary assistance were made by Russia, accompanied by complaints of its not having been given sooner—but neither were granted. There was a tolerable strong evidence also of pecuniary as sistance having been granted, in the proposal of Mi nisters to obtain a loan of six millions for the Court of Russia. He did not mean to throw the least blame on the late Ministers for such their intention—but he thought, after the specimen which the country had of other loans, and their knowledge that to a certainty they walla have it to pay, it would have a great ef fect on the market here. There was, however, a great difference between that intended loan, and leav ing them altogether without any pecuniary assistance whatever. He thought a moderate sum might have been given—such as a million or two by way of sub sidy, though the risk would have been proportionally the same. It must, however, be recollected that no power on the Continent had been so eminently faith ful in pecuniary engagements as the Court of Russia, though their bargains were generally made with indi viduals, which might be one cause why they were more scrupulously exact than Courts sometimes are' with each other. There was another circumstance which was of considerable weight, which was the real. want that the Court of Russia was in of money so much so in fact, at one time in the campaign, that Lord Hutchinson was pressingly called on toadvance• £lOO,OOO, and he did actually advance that sum, and as a proof of the punctuality of Russia, it had been repaid since the termination of the war. With respect to the next point, copies of dispatches relative to the commercial captures, he had no objection to their being produced. They did not concern the present Government, but on the subject of the complaints oft Russia on that head, and of the vexations thrown in the way of their commerce, he and his colleagues had made every exertion to obviate the accusations made against their predecessors. There was one of the mo tions for copies of any correspondence relative to the mediation of Austria, which the Honourable Gentle man said was to fill up a chasm. That mediation, however, had been accepted, subject to no other con ditions than that the powers engaged in war' should be parties to it. The business was first commenced be tween Count Stahremberg, the Austrian Minister here, and himself. The result of the determination of the Cabinet had been transmitted to Mr. Adair at Vienna, and for a considerable period of time, no cor respondence took place on the subject between Count Stahremberg and the Foreign Office. This, of course, caused a seeming chasm. - Lord Pembroke was after wards appointed to go to Vienna on a special mission. His Lordship was instructed also on the subject; but Lord Pembroke's voyage and journey were unfortu nately so much retarded, that he only arrived at Vi enna in the latter end of June, and soon after, the fa tal battle of Friedland took place. There was only one more paper to which he objected, and the reason was that it did not exist. Mr. PONSONBY said, he had listened to the Right Hon. Gentleman, who had just sat down, with astonishment, because he seemed to him to have been all the time speaking from the question, instead of to it. He ridiculed the idea of the Noble Lord's (Lord Hutchinson) letter being called a private letter, be cause not ir closed in his public dispatches. It was sent by that Noble Lord, as a communication of what he deemed important information for Ministers to be possessed of. His Hon. Friend's object was to know what were the real sentiments of the Emperor, with regard to a treaty of peace, and whether the En peror was seriously of opinion that a safe and hc. nourable peace might be obtai ned for this country, from the Ruler of France. He wanted also to know whether Ministers had done all in their power to faci litate the means of entering upon a treaty for that desirable purpose. Such being • the contents of the letter, the Right Hon. Gentleman might call it a rp letter, but he insisted it was a public dispatch. It was a communication from our accredited Minister there to the Secretary for Foreign Affairs here, on a subject;of the highest import to the interests of the countrp and it Was idle and ridiculous to call it pri ,rate :. if tip,e Emperor of Russia communicated to Lewd Hutchinson his sentiments with respect to the termitlk• which. peace might be Obtained—if he was .. disposea to mediate a beneficial peace for England— if he eipressed any decided opinion that an honourable peace might be obtained, the House ought to know it. The Right Hon. Gentleman was not, however, disposed to spew the Hollis whether he and his Col leagues had done all they could to take, advantage of ' the temper and disposition of the Emperor of Russia to mediate for a peace. He was, therefore, perfectly dissatisfied with what the Right on. Gentleman had said, and thought the House should insist on the pro duction of the Paper, • Mr. Secretary CANNING was about to speak in explanation, and was proceeding to comment on what bid fallen Blom the Hon. Gentleman who sp o k e Lists . when he was called to order by * • Mr; ADAM, who contended that he hal a1 n ,,,.. poker to the point lie was their arguing, and th e fore it was tot ill 'owabk for him to go over it am„. The SPEAKER said, there were sever a l p r ' -'. 0 ,, ,.. Lions, mid it was - usually ihe mode to argu e t h em generally, which' the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. pon s. • by) had done. The Right Hen. Ge ve d4i n i : therefore, not . out of order in inswcring generai r but the "better to preserve orriet,.ll6 ihOught the h r es ' t way would be . for him to put each proposition as l h„ • came to it, and then those Which were meant to be g ranted would pass, and those only be argued wh.;cii ' were mem' . t. to be reiusid: The first motion was then put and agreed to. Mr. Secretary CANNING, was about to oh ier , 4 on the 'second motion, when .. Mr. WHITBREAD rose. an 4 said, that to ohf utt the objection of. this being a-priy,ate letter, he had tut,. : stituted the following, for his original mntion, 'whi c h . he would beg leave to offer in its stead, viz.-. 7 ~ A Copy the substance of any Communication Madris ter . , Minister arSt. Petersinirgh, to the Secretary of State for the y; reign Department, of the Conversation between the Emm a d r: Runk and Lord Hutchinson, on therld August, 1110.' "' , Mr. Secretary - CICNNING said, the alee v a t h i ; made no difference in his mind—he thought thatt n o... munication ought not to be laid before•the H ew and he was determined to resist it. But before,* proceeded to -deliver his observations an the sae*. he must beg leave to assure the Home, that whe l th il ., should have occasion to. mention .thecnarne albs. Hutchinson, he should nterely-considerhim a s a p% son in: a private rapacity, but without meaning ** . least slight to him, for he had the tiighest respect* : ' his character. It was his decided and clear opi n *. therefore, that when the Court of Great Britain d e k,.. gated its powers to any accredited person, its:, to receive all - diplomatic communications throat: l r channel alone, and he thought it would be • .; derogatory to :our Ministers at Foreign Courts lilt:: it must hurt their feelings, and might be productive: of serious and mischievous consequences, if sue*. rule of conduct was. not adhered. to, •It. might pa ' : hips be said, that this communication- then sane/ H for was put into that same regular channel ;owl* he alone was the judge, whether he.wouti trap* I it, and the House had already heard from the &dm , ration of his Noble Friend, that hl had. transmitted .. it only as a private communication which had been Vonfidentially made to hint. . He asserted, that if this communication was granted, these was co English . Gentleman travelling on the Continent, who ringlos not institute a correspondence with.his Majesty's Mi. • nisters ; nay, perhaps even a cross-correspondence, and which, though transmitting communications made through the predelection and good opinion of a powerful and wise Sovereign on subjects of the f importance, it would not, in his mind, justify ters in being *awn from their coinmunication their accredited Ministers.. .'He then adverted double diplomacy of Louis XV. when an amb• was appointed to a foreign Court, and a pri\ son sent also, delegated from some subordinate) nister, who dress and gamed, and formed quaintances and connexions with people of consequence—with Ministers, their Mistresses, favourites, and with Sovereign s if• they- could, transmitted to the Court a-rsailles information every kind which they t.truld pi wi.uic, as a kind check upon that which was sent by the accredited: Ambassador. This was a kind of diplomacy ~ he did*not approve, and therefore he was determined to resist the present motion. Mr. PONSONBY said, the Right, Hon. man had imputed to his Hon. Friend, in mot. the production of Lord Hutchinson's conversation,' design to excite croft feefiiigt. Mr. CANNING immediately explained, .. 44 cross feeling," he meant nothing in relation to i. per, but to that appearance of a treat correspondence, which could produce nothing but confusion, feat the true objects of every diplomacy. Mr. PONSONBY continued.—He had, be . wish to excite any improper .feelings, or to create confusion ; but he rose to vindicate the real of his Honourable Friend's. ndation, the ( _ ,Which was merely the production of a most important document, without the communication of which ' mould be impossible for the House fully opon the question which his Honourable F' ,n view, upon a future discussion, namely, we had acted right or wrong in then rejecting proffered mediation of Russia towards a peace France. No comparison could be less appropriate than that of Lord Hutchinson to an ordinary ^ ler. He had been immediately before, the Minister of this country at the Court of Prussia . the peace of' Tilsit, when he took las departure St. Petersburgh. It was not to be supposed, fore, from the high confidential situation recently filled, that .a Nobleman of his - should so suddenly have sunk in the estimation Emperor into the mere private traveller. The Honourable Gentleman had admitted that . Lord held so much consideration in the esteem Majesty's accredited Minister at St. Petersbi he held it right to avail himself of.the power . fidence, wherewith the Noble Lord was honoured the Emperor, to receive the communication gay . travel/en as he was called, respecting the sation and sentiment of his Imperial Majesty, highest importance to this country, and to ma communications the subject of a confidential his Majesty's Principal Secretary of State reign Department, for the direction of his Government i therefore he would contend was to all intents and purposes, a public high importance to the welfare of this country riZly involving the conduct of his Majesty's ars, and the production of which that Hnust right to claim, and Ministers no just preteni withhold, Dr. LAWRENCE spoke to the same condemned the duplicity, with which the ' Gentleman had treated the character of Lord inson, first in affecting to consider him with spect, and then, in speaking of his roman' as if they were those of any other gay Russia for his private pleasure. I f Mini said the document in question Was one not be produced with snfety, they would plea on which to ground the refusal. But . no such pretence. All that his Honourable desired was merely the substance of the Lion. But Ministers might well 'set enquiry cases whete Public- ranee k5O that to make roduced. but those; s.l.tuitiops, would ine e general rule. "Nnenteance. The proper to lay so d m the defence re•the Rouse—and . is declaration w as a to suPPIT the deft- evehttenian had stated, ti 3 ‘; , :k the ens whether Government ha 1 the fiat EmaYa fy Nuns.: ' tion with •L eltiT to s tliv. 'tau ib4fialtdttrt teßnt irateiller • was I /Intel& Hon rued ac. Nob] r the. fmt • Cow ses, - their • coati onld, Saba =don . of • • Wig team : In° accredited:. act icy whieh whi - eitraimai besi I. 'Gentle. . Em Loving for • the • Tat 1011,4!;. nie l the I, that 4 *tic ion to teen. • res spondencee not 1, and de• he said, nn infi create my Pot :al motives to object tir iumortais bli Lf Which it Mi •to decide'. in . Friend bat y, whethr: ;jetting the r i peace *tit appropriate tea nary travel. e accredited .1 be 'russia oat*: el_ eparture for used, tbero'-' n he had se or s c haracter er latitin of the• tb The Ritkibc.- ti Id prers i s t bo tee nur t o h m uured iS g4ci ef tsu alt tias h::: mien of this the cover< / lesty, of the o snake those atial letter to • e in the Fo: Majesty 5 end that this dispatch cf ' untry, mate' esty's Muse had a pretence to ne effect, and • Right Hon; • Lord Hutch- with h igh re' ninunicatioas r traveller dinisteri had e which could • Id have some lot they nude . arable Friend . e comrnunia• •niui.rl at c k ' • wee, if „,entsj Right th e fir Reif hi .sharb a ssi or 10 0 0 cAti r iale eerlnj would P I f ond SK T tith e umn icat bteN lin on col raking which gars fr C 0461 6; Mt Right i Cannin Heats does al vend ethers" upon 2 . of lira woo torahs], ter. wish Lord it as gl 0 101 apinti Sraut 31 4 sits to Pet loßw avec IP" Per" who of 19 wr.ny even bear, foal foes veile4 l I I