Star. — London, England, 1813-02-27 00:00:00

to. receive pay from the GOveroment,. the-People would immediately -withdraw their cotifid'ence (rims' them. As friend to the' Catholics, as a friend to Ireland, as a friend to the Protestants, he should never consent that they should be paid by the Go vernment. He was far from meaning to say arty thing against the character or the principles of the .clergy ; but when he saw the manner in which the preferrrients and Bishoprics in the Pro s testant Church were disposed of, he could not but apprehend, that, if the Catholic Clergy were to be placed on the same , footing as to the distribution of patronage, the Go vernment would soon become despotic. His Right Bon. • Friend had recommended' that the prayer of the Catholics should, in the first instance, be granted, und that the House should afterwards. legislate re- Issecting the securities. But if they were to do so, N.. hat would it be but to say, " we admit your claims this day, and tomorrow we shall legislate for pre 'venting all intercounsetetween them and the Pope, -and to establish ,such other securities ai may be Seemed expedient P' His Right Hon. Friend bad asserted,' that he would grant the veto; but, - in his mind, if the Catholics should consent to give a veto ao the King, they would be no longer Catholics ; they might call them Catholics or veto-men, or by whatever other name they might please, (and in the event of their agreeing to the veto, he trusted they' would be called veto-men,) but they could not call them Catholics. Upon this peint.his mind was fully satisfied; and convinced of the iinpoitance of it to the vital question under ce`hsielei atiOn, he should not faithfully have performed his duty it'he had not put the House in possession of his sentiments upon it, by taking an humble share in the discussion, as he had upon every former occasion of its being under con sideration since he had the honour of a seat in that House. Conceiving it a duty imposed upon him; he should leave no stone unturned to attain, an oh sect so essentially connected with the prosperity of his native country, and so h kely to remove all the jea kusies and distractions of the empire, as the eman cipation -Of his brave, loyal, and gallant Catholic countrymen. , He esteemed it a wise and liberal po licy, Worthy of a great and enlightened Legislature, to permit every man to make his.peace with the An anotire according to his conscience, without suhject ing him to any civil disabil.ties or disadvantages; and to establiih as the rule of universal conduct; that a every man's text should be do as you would be done by." Such a system would attach men to each other, and promote the happiness of all ; and in his conscience • he was persuaded, that it would not only be effectual to secure the prosperity of his native country, Ire land, but fully establish the tranquillity, harmony, and peace cf the whole' empire. The quetaion before the House, however, had been so often before de bated, that he should have contented himself With giving a silent vote upon the present occasion, if he had not felt that in these dangerous tines more than . a silent vote was required of him. The question was of such vital importance to Ireland and the Empire, in these critical times, that every Irishman, who was siotctiminally indifferent to the interests c.f his coun try, was bound to state his sentiments upon it with sincerity and frankness. What, he would ask, was the amount of the argument of the Honourable Member for Corte Castle ( Mr. Bankes) against the :Ironer) of his Right-Honourable Pr iend who brought forward the subject ? Did it not rest altoge ther upon unsupported assertions that the establish ments in Church and State were in danger ? Was that house to be told than upon the support of the bi gotry of a few persons who ranged themselves against the Clalmsof the Catholics, the preservation ot 'their lives and fortunes depended ! Oh, matchless igno rance ! Oh, Matchless intolerance. ! Fortunately, however, both in this country and more particularly in Ireland the great mass of the people were of a con trary opinion. He could take upon him to assert, that in Ireland, and especially in the county Tipper rary, which-he had the honour to represent,. nine tenths of the Protestants were friends to Catholic emancipatiOn. He could take upon him to assert posi , tively every man, whether Dissenter or Protestant in 'the country, with the exception of the contemptible dependants on theGevernment, told the base satellites of the Court, was favourable to the emancipation of the Catholics, and decidedly adverse to the exclusion of millions of their brave' fellow subjects from their political and civil rights, to gratify the ambition and intolerance of a few bigots. There had been re cently many discussions in that House,.upon petitions presented against the Catholics, almost all of which petitions had been clandestisely procured—but, with respect to the petitions which bad come from the South of Ireiand„ particularly from the great, opu lent, and powerful county Tipperary, which he had the honour to represent, they were in favour of the eathohe Claims, as the bsst means of uniting all classes of subjects in one common bond ibr a com mon object. In this feeling Catholics, Presbyterians, and Protestants participated—they were anxious that no religious differences should disturb their harmony, but that all composing one great family, and contri buting equally to the enormous and prodigious taxes imposed upon theineshould share alike in the blessings of that Constitution, for the preservation of which they were all equally ready to make every sacrifice. The merits of the Roman Catholics, as seamen and soldiers in the navy and army, might be learned by refening to the records of the Admiralty, and the irar-011ice. There were more Catholics in the army and the navy than there were men of any other reli gious persuasion, and, independent of all the other strung claims they: had upon the justice of that House and the Legislatt'ne e their services in both by sea and land' amply -entitled. theni to the attainment vi.all they requited. He hoped, therefore, he should hear no more of Test Acts or disqualifications on ac count of religiuu. Ireldnd supplied a mush larger number of men to the service of the State than England--and yet, he was sorry to add, that it had been the 'practice to rule that beautiful country with a rod of iron. This system had been persevered in untostunately contrary to the opinions of all the ensightened Stasesmen of modern times, and instead of ailing in the affections of the people, the Govern ment maintained its ascendancy by pains, penalties, , and the bayonet. lii proportion as force Was neces satyr to the support of the Government, it must be obvious that there must be something radically b.al ' in the system neon which it is regulated. The attach ment of. the people is a much more effectual founda tion of security to a Goverumpt, th,tu any force it, self; to be paced iiiiinv'an etintAl to rights, would-be soon heartily united, and then the Govev. ment need not go to foreign Countries -4i the Ger mans or Portuguese to recruit • its armies. It would tii) longer be necessary to continue that disgraceful system, which tears men from their homes, their fami lies, and all they hold dear in the world, and . places them in situations,whence many of them never return; the system of impressment might then easily be got, rid.o altogether., He would tell the House how that, i could be done, if the Government could be bruught; to act towards Ireland in a spirit of yonciliation and' i kindness. They .shoulit begin by a general enroll ment of all the children from their birth, to which the people would cheerfully submit. Schools should shtal be established in the parishis, ih the hundredssl and in the counties, from which a certain number of boys might reLularly be taken, which would be :Af t ficient •to• provide in time an ample supply of men: for the army and navy. The most, complete igrso rance prevailed in-this country respecting Ireland.— He'had hinieelf raised - two regiments there, and knew sell the . mattial spirit 9t the people, and the ardour with which they would press into the service,' if riot checJced• bf the.operation of civil disabilities. — The effect of the System which had been pursued, might be judged of by the change which has been effected within nine months, in consequence of which, pet suns who before lived in the interchange of officps of mutual hospitality, now passed each other by as strangers. Few recruits were obtained for the army, except fr. m the militia. The people besame d more enlightened by acquiring knowledge, ancon sequently, the more sensible of their degraded state, which prevented them from enlisting. A great deal had been said as to the violence of the speeches of the advocates of the Catholics; and an Honourable Member (Mr. Ban kes) had assigned that as a reason for voting against the motion. He might allow that these advocates had been intemperate, and might be come factious and dangerous ; • but what was the re medy-Lto withdraw the tools by redressing the griev ances of five millions of people ? Then they would be happy and content. But he would not agree that the Catholic board of advocates had been culpably violent, though they might have been intemperate, they had not been unconstitutional. "The agents of the castle had been watching them like vultures ready to pounce upon their prey, and yet theyhad not been able to fix uptliany thing unconstitutional: They had petitioned tliat House in decorous and temperate law; guage. He contended that what the Catholics claimed was their right, and be had recommended to the Catholics of Tipperary not to petition for it as a boon, but to demand it as a right, though without effect. The. Hon. General then proceeded to establish the ground - of the right, by strewing that the Cathcai l lies were entitled to what they sought under the con-, ditions of the capitulation of Limerick, and that the violation of 'these conditions was an act of perfidy on the part of the British nation ; and concluded by as serting, that the Catholics were entitled to the unre stricted, unqualified, and unrestrained possession of the rights they sought, for which reason he should vote for the motion, as essential to the happiness of Ireland, to the stability of the Empire, and to the maintenance of its rank as a great nation,in the corn thunity of European States. • • *is— RIME COOTE would not trespass - pet the time of the Hour by dilating on a question in its more general bearings, so much better understood by many persons in the House than - he pretended to Un derstand it ; but in the capacity of a military man, he could not forbear offering a few observations on, 'it, as it was connected with military affairs. He could mit conceive from any thing with which his experience had made-him acquainted, that there was any danger in admitting the Catholics to stations of rank and command in the army ; their loyalty was known ; the proofs of it were innumerable ; and from them be would select a few prominent features suffi cient in themselves to do away. any. jealousy that might be felt with respect to their views and wishes. He recollected, when in the year 1793, the expedition sailed from Ireland for the West Indies, which win commanded by that skilful and gallant Officer Sir Charles Grey, than whom no man ever deserved, better of his country—a man, who was equally emi nent in the field and the Cabinet—that Officer had uniformly praised the conduct of the Irish troops, which formed a considerable part of his force, and .had attributed principally to their valour the impor tant conquests he had effected ; now two-thirds rfl these Irish soldiers were Catholics.—(Hcar,hear,hear.) A number of Irish Catholics also served in Egyia under Generals Sir Ralph Abercromby and Lord Hutchinson, and most materially cou:ributed to the mpc rtant successes which had been gained there : they had fought in. numbers, and with their wonted gallantry in Holland, and were now fighting in the Peninstih.--(frear.)—When he locked, then, at the devoted zeal with which these people w..re ever {eddy tat shed their blood in defence.of their country, or for' the ingmentation of her glory, he did not feel him-' 'self jus e ilkd is voting against a Committee which was to inquire, whether that country could with safety confer on them* reward they had toiled so arduously to o'%.aip ? He wished them to obtain every privilege which... Could with safety be granted the, and nothing • more and he wished the conduct of the Legislature, and e Government, towards them to be on all occa sions f l itch as would, by . liberality on the one part,. beg47c - pnlidence on the other. SIiNICHOLAS ,COi.THURST thought that,' as the • late Parliament . had dome to a vote for a 1 Committee to inquire. respecting securities, guarded, by virh{ch the Catholic claims may be acquiesced in,, ; they given a e :kind of pledge that their successors would not refuse to tread in their steps, if the rea sons which.bactregulated their conduct should con tinue in full force. He was of opinion that the con duct'of the Catholics and their advocates out of doors should not have any irffluesce on. the deliberations or decisions of either House of Parliament. They should endeavour to ascertain, by detailed and minute in quiry, whether any, and what nieisure of relief could be afforded them from the grievances of which they complained ; and then, on coming to a decision, in form them upon what groupds it was founded ; and such a proceeding would be found to have weight and authority, even with the body whose interests it might eventually hurt. He conceived that consider ration, which was all the present motion went to, and uecisicin,, were things altogether distinct ; and by, voting for the former ? , be by. AO means pledged him,l at entute .pstatasergioltllidlitt an whit- ;It'At leeits;g the Catfu;licsthattireyh7d vet pro• seeztaltparoisinekasevei 4uted. eff..ted, aoy seal: itie;„ It w..e his. most qr istAtt - piojcoiTtson cotinecta sr - subject Anxious wish that while-they conceded to the Cetho. •should be submitted to the. Houle. Jictthat which justice demanded, they should prea Mr. HART DAVIS said he would not only vote • erve, nnimpaited, the Church establishment, in all against the Committee, but he would * on all future its,sanctity,. and In all its splendour. The official si occasions, vote against any s;milat Measure that tuation which he kid the honour to hold, rendered might be proposed, unless coupled with securities for it incumbent on him not to give a silent vote on this the preservation of the constitution and the established occasiop ;. but for that consideration he should have religion, notonly offered, but accepted* He coneeived abstained from p4rticipating in the discussion. U,ider that carrying the present question in the affii moire any circumstances, however, whether in office or nut of would have altogether adifferent effect from what was• office, or whatever has been his political connexions, expected by its supporters; it would aggravate : the he should have felt it his paramount duty to v.ue s for feelings, the asperity of which it was meant to soften. concession to the Catholics under these restrictiontto Another reason why he would give a negative vote which he had already alluded. A great deal had , was, the hostile spirit which had been evinced by been said about the tone which the Catholics had re. the Catholics, both in.• their writings and their cently assumed. That tone carried its punishment . speeches : they had snanifested a most resolutely- along with it ; for it had been urged on all occasions ; hostile spirit, and created so much alarm in the minds as one of the strongest arguments against eutucenion. of the'sProtestant part of the sr mmurii'y, that he , But, as had been justly observed by the Right Hon. should not be at all surprised if concession their . Mover of the proposition before the House, they avowed enemies would have the effect of readerink arieielsot to consider the temper of troy body of men. them not only discontented,..l•ut disloyal, both in Eng- They were to do justice. That the Catholicsltad been land and Ireland. No one whcl observed the nume- intemperate—that same of them had heel presump rous. Petitions preferred by those people, with which tuous—that they had tried to interfere with .things the table was crowded, could conceive that such an which ought to have been held by them most sacred apprehension was unreasonable. The Honourable —that they had proscribed, in a m.ouscr not to be Member concluded by asserting,' that it was not tole- borne, those who differed from them in ~p inion, it was ration, but political power, ahat the Catholics were impossible to d e ny. But was it forPailiament to visit seeking. - the transgressions of certain individuals on the whole • Sir JOHN STUA RT reprobated the tone of Ge- Catholic Body ? Already had that Body sustained neral Mathew's speeCh, contrasting it with the mode- considerable iiajur y from the conduct of some ..t their rate though able one which had been delivered by members ; for it was evident that there was a ;outer his Right Honourable Friend (Mr. Plunkett) and the disposition on the part of the Protestants of Ireland object of which was, to bring the Catholics within towards the Catholic Claims than existed in former the pale of the Constitution, he mostanxiously wished years. If he were asked what securities he would pro. could be attained. He wished he could see the Ca- pose to accompany concession ?he wou'Ll reply, that tholics and Protestants of his native country united would be a fit subject for discussion i. the Committee. in the closest bonds of amity. It was peculiarly nn- The principal security, and that ought to make a . fortunate that any cause of disunion should subsist part luf, if not he the prelude of concession, s'sould be between them, for no Lind existed', the inhabitants of al arrangement ss ith the Catholic Church. Such as which were better adapted by the kindly affections of arrange's - lent he meant as that Church might justly the heart, to mingle like brothers done family. His be expected to accede Si; for nothing would be more Right Hon. rriend had spoken as if he was autho- base than to affect to give the Catholics privileges on rised to state, that securities for the preservation of terms which their religion would forbid diem to accept. the Constitution and the national religion would be It might fairly berequired of the Cithuhes to hold agreed to by the Catholics. Most happy would he be no foreign intercourse, to admit no foreign iuthience,- il they did agree to such conditions, to see them relieved to allow no correspondence with Rome which even a from the influence of all thosegalling restrictions under Catholic Sovereign would not tolerate. A Protestant which they laboured ; but he much feared that his Mon trch and a Protestant Parliament could not justly Right Honourable Friend had spoken rather from his be expected to accord that to the Cathuli -- which wishes than his knowledge, and that it would be found a Catholic Prince was found not a matter of greater difficulty than he imagined to cord to them. But the greatest bring the Catholics and their Priests under the Con.; could be obtained would be by cot stitution. The 'Honourable Baronet then entered into tholic Church, by their interest, by a defence of the people called Orange-men, and their ; their pride, by their passions, to time principles, and concluded it. with an assertion that this would be best accompli.hed by they would never desist from drinking the glorious to the Catholic Clergy, or by other memory of the monarch who had procured for them favour, it was net for him then to e: the blessings of civil and religious liberty, so long as —But he was sure, if the House w a glass of wine was to be found in Ireland. He ad- into a Committee, that in that C. mitred that the Penal Code in ifs primitive severity means would be suggested of effect was a savage code, but contended that in its actual desirable. Adverting to the speech state, it was perfectly reconcileable with the soundest evening by an Honourable Gentleman principles of 'justice—fur that it withheld from the he said that it was not for him to qt Catholics nothing they could wish for but political nourable Gentleman% consistency. power, and that time Government of every State had Honourable Qentleman had so qu a right to withhold from any portion of their subjects this subject ooh A former occasion as , so long as• they c-nceived that .it could not be im- the vote which hehad declared . it td parted without endangeting the State. to give 'en the present occasion. 131 Mr. WARD argued in favour of the motion, con- of the last Parliament who had not tending that the petitions preferred by the ?rotes- votes, would not be warranted in ft tants could not be considered as proof that they nourable Gentleman's example. wished a continuance of the penal code ; but on the ; had he even been staggered in the contrary, should be taken as a proof of she reverse, entertained last year, yet, having a; far they only prayed that the restrictions should not last Parliament pledged himself to be removed without securities being given for the ; tholic claims, he should not think preservation of the Church and State—a sort of prayer , want of the dissolution, released Prot which involved in it a facit admission, that, if such The present Parliament certainly was securities were given, emancipation was admissible. ; the consideration as a Parliament; ' Mr. W. FITZG ERA LD declared, that on a of it who were Memb:rs of the list question such as that before the Home, involving in who voted for the Resolution mo! a interests of the utmost magnitude and importance, Honourable Gentleman near him he should be a traitor to his country, if he deemed were, in his opinion, unequivocal( himself bound to respect any opinion in preference consideration. It was not, bower to his sense of public duty. Happily there was no' pledge that he should 'vote for the temptation to any such dereliction. Happily the sub- because be was thoroughly persuaded ject came under the unbiassed consideration of Par-. ciliatory adjustment of the Catholic liament. His sentiments on the question entirely co- ! dispensable to the prosperity and incided With those which had bee' so ably expressed of the empire. en the preceding evening by a Right Hon. Friend of ! Mr. PROTHEROE spoke against his (Mr. Plunkett,) and here, as a Member of Parlia- principally dwelling on the intemperance ment, he must congratulate the House on such an by the Catholic Committee, the michani s ' accession to their deliberative meetings—as an Irish- of the Catholic Church, and the failure man, he must congratulate his country on the display tempt to spew what would be a of talent mhich had been witnessed in the person of to the Protestant establishment against his Right Hon. Friend. He repeated his satisfaction croechment. that every man, en this great public question, was Sir F. FLOOD wished to speak on left at liberty to form and to express his own judg- question. He wished to call to the merit. It was not a subject affecting any party feel- what the last Parliament had done ing, and be trusted that the object in view would con- that Parliament, almost at its dyi sequently be obtained.—The Right Hon. Barons, made a will in favour of the Roman who had spoken on the other side, had drawn a pic- land, which was signed by two hut' ture of Ircland,.which he (Mr. F.) thought would seven persons, and attested by one _ have been the prelude to voting for the Committee ; individuals—(laughter)—rind he therefore and he confessed that he did not recollect to have hoped, that neither the Parliament heard any thing more inconsequential than the con- Doctor (Dr. Dui an, the Judge clasion to which' that Hon. Baronet had arrived.— Court in Ireland)" seould refuse to At the same time he freely confessed, that he could that will.—( Continua laughter.)--F agree to all the opinions of an Hon. General op- honour ana liberality of Parliainen posite. He did lament the mistake that had bound as to convince it of the justice of c. the Catholics to Kieg James ; although he could not cution that will—for it was the solemn-sr see the justice of referring to the transactions of the last Parliament, •and the last Parliament • last century, or of invoking the manes of the Irish more! He would not anticipate an) Parliament of that period, in order to terrify the the Learned Doctor, for that learned United Parliament of the present period from doing that the interests of the people of thr an act of great public justice. The Hon. Baronet were so identified with the mterests had asked, with whom Parliament would treat or Establishment that nothing could negotiate ? He (Mr. F.) replied, that he would nei- - concession to the Catholics ; there titer treat nor negotiate with any. It would not be for restrictive measures. He now q suitable to the character of Parliament to treat or ned Doctor's oxen works —he quoted negotiate. If Parliament determined on considera- Belinburg4 Review !—(Afuch lase tion, and if concession should follow concession, it " Question.") He wished to give. would be the duty of Parliament to prescribe the possible information on the subject , terms on which that concession should be granted, fore hoped that they would hear him. It was not for Parliament to treat with the Catholic; lice deserved their protection, for as with an independent Power ; he begged, there. soldiers in the world ; he did nu fore, to be understood, that in voting for the House he was an Irishman, but because to go into a Committee, he did not bind himself to , They were somewhat toe anxious support any specific measure. But he would not he. but they were brave and loyal men sitate to express his anxiety that stmemeasure should t that could be trusted both at land be adopted whichmight finally settle this great ques. , men had any errors at all, they ition in a satisfactory manner, and he would not he- ! own country only ; take them out . 'sitate to. declare, that it was for the Committee to med the best body of men in the wog determine cm she securities to the Protestant Church, lay:hien) Surely the House could nE coma not justiy Catholics - which t disposed to ac- est security that mnecting the Ca. I their feelings,.bk State. ‘Thether gra.sting stipends i er acts or grace or • express an opinion. i would agreetogo , Zunitnittee ample ecting an object so 1 n made yesterday 'I min (Mr.Bankes), / question that Ho- . No doubt that t talified his vote on s to justify him in vi be his intention lut those Minters i a so qualifieiktheir following the Ho. i For his owe part, ," e opinion-which he is a Member of the r :o consider the Ca- k himself, by the t t, •om that pledge.— was not pledged to i ; bay the Members 1 t Parliament and noved .by a Right a (Mr. Canning), lly pledged to that vcr, to redeem his to Committee, but ded that the coo- lie Claims was in. I even to the safety ;ainst the motion,' serance manifested :hang lug character allure of every ft. sufficient security gainst Catholic en. on this momenta*: I mind of the House fur the Catholics : ying moment, had in Catholics of Ire. andred and thirty- e bandied and . silt serefure confidently it nor the Learned ' of the Prerogative I grant a AreLatr to I lle trusted that the ;nt would be suds carrying into axe soletnn-will of the ament was now no any otiection from lied than had said, i the B itish Em's', ts of the Protestan Id be feared front e was no occasion r quoted the Lear led Nu. 35 of the' ;Ater, and ealto - • ve the House • ect 1 and he th him. The Cath. i they were the be .i not say so becau -• e they mere so I in battle, perhaps n for all that—me I and sea. It Irish had them in thei t of it, and they foi world! (Ma, . mid •not :Air .I.