Star. — London, England, 1813-03-30 00:00:00

'ART PROCEEDINGS. HOUSE OF LORDS, MARCH 29. - • , Mr. &FUTON, from the East India Company, ptlippted - Papers. • Mr. Nsirrox she delivered Papers • fron the Landon Flour • Company, which were laid on the table. Mr. Login N °Tors, and several Members from the Commons, brought up the two Exchequer Bills' VD, the Irish Sugar Draw back Bill, the Canada Rum Bill, and several other Bills. The Duke of NORFOLK took occasion to observe, on the _ . first reading of the Five Millions Exchequer Bills' Bill, that he was apprehensive It would Ititrench on the plan of the Sinking Fund—a measure he had generally approved, but which he con ceived would be interrupted by the operation of this Bill. Lord LIVERPOOL intimated, that the Noble Duke's appre hension on that subject was not will founded. He could prove, at the proper time, that the Sinking Fund would not be at all affectedbythe'Bill. Lord SHEFFIELD moved for some Papers relating to East India.Shipping.—Ordereii. Lord REDESDALE presented a Petition from the BM India Company, praying for a renewal of their Charter, and to be beard by their Counsel. The Duke of NORFOLK presented a Petition from Sheffield against the East India Monopoly. Lord MOUNT EDGECUMBE presented fourteen or fifteen Petitions from Cornwall, against the Roman Catholic Claims. CURATES' BILL. The House went into a Committee, pursuant to the order of the day, on the Curates Bill, when a long discussion ensued, in • which the Archbishop of CAN TLRBURT, the Bishops °ILI NOOK,. GLOUCtSTIM, and Not/nett% Lord HARROWIST, Lord KINTON, Lord ELLZNSOIIOOOII, Lord GRINVILLZ, and Lord ZIDIa- DALI, were the speakers. The Bishop of LONDON, on the clause for fixing the. Sala-. ries of Curates, and making the asixistees 75, moved an amend ment to give them any sum not exceeding eeoo per annum, which the Bishops in their discretion might think fit. Lord Livetteoot, Lord ILtaaowav, Lord RADNOR, and Lord Gaesivitte opposed the Amendment. The LORD CHANCELLOR contended, that it was necessary to increase the Salaries of Curates, end deprecated, in severe terms, the treffic carried on in Church Benefices. The House divided on the Amendment. The numbers were, Cements, 35—Non Contents, 17—Majority, 2. The ,Amend pent was of course negatived. The remaining clauses were then agreed to, with verbal amendments. The Bill went through the Comm ittee, and was Ordered to be reported. Adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS. 'The two Bills relative to Exchequer Bills were severally read is third time. A Petition was presented from certain Electors of the Borough of Weymouth, complaining of abuses in the exercise of the elec tive franchise. Al,. a Petition from the same persons praying that they might be heard by their Counsel at the Bar of the House, and that the Plouse would prbv!de by Bill against the abuses complained of. The Admiralty Registrar's Bill was postponed to this day. se'nnight. lhe Irish Sugar Distillation Bill was read a second time, and • order:d to he committed on Friday. A Petition was pre - ented front the Commissioners of Wide Streets in Dublin, praying the usual grants. • Mr. FREEMANTLE, after reminding the House that he had objected to certain charges in the Army' stimates, moved for a summary Account of all Public Works and Buildings that have been carried, or are now cacrying on in Ireland, under the di rection of the Barrack Department, specifying the times, places, espences, &c. and the names of the Surveyors employed from the sth January, 1809, to the Ist lan. 1813.—Ordered. Mr. FREEMANTLE then moved, That List of all Barracks and other buildings ozcuried for The public service, Fpecifying the uses tq which they are severally applied, and the numbers they are calculated to contain. Mr. FEELE - said, he bad already promised that these docu• menu should be presented, but that some time was necessary for their arrangement, for the purpose of being produced.— Ordered. SINECURE BILL. Mr. D. GIDDY having brought up the Report of the Sinecure Bill, Mr. TIERNEY said, that he-wished to call the attention of the House for a moment to a Notice which he was about to give, It was his intention to have offered a different motions but as the discussion *upon It would probably be protracted to a consider able, and perhaps inconvenient length, in respect to the new Financial Bill,, he would now give notice, " That on 1 hursday next he should move the appointment of a Committee, to report how far the Sinking Fund, under the !6th, s9.d, al.d 421 of the King, was disposable, as to any part of It, by his Majesty's Ministers." Mr. HOLFORD then rose, and expressed his in tention to oppose the Report before the House. He said, the tendency of Sinecure Places was not, as re presented, to extend the influence of the Crown; they would even, in some instances, proditce the contrary effect. It was well known that Sinecures were more properly at the disposal of the Ministers for the time being, than of the Crown. Then, supposing that Ministry to go out, the appointment to Sinecure Places, so •far from increasing the influence of Go vernment, would give strength to• opposition, Co whom the gratitude of the persons appointed is AT rurally due. It was hard, he said, that the children of tolinisters, being left unprovided for by the opera tion of this Bill, if passed into a law, should have cause to regret that their parents had -pot 'devoted their lives to other, pursuits than the . service of their country. It was more expedient, as well as consti tutional, to have recourse to the provision by Sine cures, than, apply for grants to this House. When valuable puLlic services were performed of naval and military merit, the House might fairly judge; trut of civil services they could not impartially judge. Even the family of Mr. Percevai, whose excellenronalititti and important services were admitted by all parties; was not provided for merely for hil curll services; ' but rather on account of the peculiar tircurnstances that distinguished his lamented anckuntimely end.— The aboition of many offices was propoied•bt this , Sill, for which no provision was made. He 'would • instance the, First Commissioner and Secretary' for I India Affairs. ' If public applause could .be gained toy this Sill, it was only bytontinually bringing for ward such measures as the :present, otherwise the " popularity of its author could not ,be perminent.— Be (Mr. Holford) bad not often trespassed ort. the attention of the House; but, lOoking up* this as an , Unworthy saer.fice tra popularity, he felt it his duty to come fotward for the purpose of resisting it. He would therefore move—" That instead of 'the word 64 now," be substituted . " this day six months." • Mr. B4 NKES said, that if the Hon. Member who • last sp rit e had, more rt inutely cons:dere& the objects f thit Bill,. he would have found that it was inten ded by it to place every provision for public service - within its operation ii, the Koper hands—a responsi- • sle Ministry- not at the discretion of 'Parliament, The Bill did not give, as objected to it; a claim to , :el, N ,ry person who had screed a certain time; but, on the contrary, left a discretion in the Crown to be di •tectid 6y the public interest. It was not fair tia ex ect a sypern br ideal perfect:it ti.; all that was in the contemplation of the framers of this Bill seas to , tlace Offices ion it More fair and .proper basis. It urged, that the 'effect of tlsis Bill would be to ex - sai pre wo eff4 Prt bei Oct bit wh tur of tioi cal .the . cot test Cu' Tal Is civ the an' WA bu Ith; Tt ins In by all ur cc wI la al 11 p t 1:1 u windy, on the contrary, ignorance and locapaelty. now was by pension Ili , and necure offices were ;illy Ws(Mr. I r . (Mr. Bankes') Bill wain innovation, but a strict the-exception. In ahnost all the subordinate offices ; \ imitation of the principle extensively laid down by time of service was the test established by Aet of Par- Mr. Burke and Mr. Pitt. He would deny this wear lament. The Hon. Mover of this Bill thought the sure to he an unworthy sacri fi ce to popularity. If it mode by sinecure objectionable, because it was inde- , were objected, that Mr. Burke and Mr. Pitt had left finite, and might be given for no services at all, an d . those plains untouched, he (Mr. Bankes) would urge had besides become odious in the country: He (Mr: the increase of the public burthens. lie hoped, the Canning) suppoited the Bill. because it was a substi• present House of Commons would not disappoint the tution, and no abolition, and endeavoured to effect Public by rejecting a measure which the last Parlia- the same epd by a better mode than was done at pre meat were willing to agree to, even against the voice sent, The test of time was applied to almost all'the of the Minister, subordinate offices of Government. But the Noble Lord CASTLEREAGH said, he felt a difficulty Lord had said, mere technical fidelity. aqd daily in resisting any measure whose object was the ruble- dustry were here concerned. But the situation Lion of the public burthens, particularly when aft in- which the Noble Laid held now, and he himself tenanted by the last Parliament. The majority, how- had formerly held, was not one of mere drudgery, ever, was not so decisive and triumphant as his Hon. and to the high office of representing the Sovereign Friend (Mr, Bankes) now contended; but supposiog to Foreign States, the principle of this Bill had been the Bill to pass this House, to was sure of meet- applied by Mr. f erceval in 1810, and nil foreign ing more resistance in another quarter. If discoun- service was entitled to a pension, unless it had tenanted in another House, there could be no use in been continued fqr a certain time—though, in this jaressing it here—.[The Noble Lord having followed particular case, the principle might seem objec up this argument, cries of 44 Order!" proceeded from tionable. The man who, at a former period, had many Members, upon which' resided several years at a petty German Court, or at • Mr. SPEAKER declared, that this House could the Court of Naples, upon this principle was entitled got allow itself to be swayed by the opinions of an- to a pension; while the man, who by his talents and other.l exertions should rouse nations to arms against Ilona . Lord CASTLEREAGH . 'said, he should argue parte, might go unrewarded. Here the principle of the question on its own merits. As a measure of time might have been spared. tut, in other cases, economy, it would completely fail. The pensions the limitation of time was the most harmless and provided by the Bill, and which were to commence uninvidious. If it had been enacted, that the Lord immediately, were nearly equal to what was saved Chancellor should have a pension if liq behaved pro by the abolition of Sinecure Places. He (Lord Cas- perly, how invidious would such a clause .be ! Ishe tlereagh) was satisfied that the West-India patronage i principle of time was applied to all the subordinate should be placed on a different footing from what it offices at home, and to all the great offices abroad. ' was at present, without even waiting for the final The principle, indeed, was applicable to the state of success or failure of the Bill. A sweeping measure, things in which he found the country, and whether which abolished near 350 places at once, swould that state was better or worse thavhe former, he was cause a very material derangement in our official not called upon to decide. system. The provisions of this Bill would bear hard Mr. BATHURST said, he thought the Bill liable upon that party in the State which happened to be to all the objections taken against it. What he him out of power ; yet he (Lord Castlereagh) would con- self most found fault with in it, was the sweeping tend, that public men, out of office, might do impor- sort of clause which took away the whole patronage taut service to their country. Mr. Burke and Mr. of the Crown ;—and even supposing that it should Pitt acted upon principles different from this Bill. leave it in a better state (which lie did not admit They abolished offices, not as being sinecures, but as that it did), yet it was such anlalteration of the system tending to strengthen the influence of Government, as he, for one, could not agree to. •or unnecessarily increase the public burthens. He Mr. CANNING and Mr. BATHURST severally ex ' (Lord Castlereagh) conceived this Bill too aristocra- plained. tical in its tendency ;it went to exclude the want of Mr. PONSONBY said, the Bill of the Honourable personal . fortune from the offices of State. The mea- Gentleman on the floor had been very hardly dealt sure was unconstitutional and aristocratical in a higher by. The Noble Lord, and his adherents on the other degree than was allowed by the principles of the Bri- side of the House, had allowed there were many -List) Constitution. He should not at present go into parts of the Bill deserving of their own support, and 'the view of the patronage of the Crown, Official therefore if they meant to deal candidly by it, they emolument was not now an object of so much'consi- ought to move to have it re-committed, and not vote deration as it had once been • and by the present Bill for its rejection. He would allow the justice of the the Public would be deprived of the advantage of argument, that the Bill would do little by way of great talents, unless unitedlffith private wealth : the economy. If it had passed some years ago, we should Bill was also too favourable to those who had long now see many large sums in.the hands of the public, been in possession of political power. which had so long passed out of them. The Noble Mr. CANNING observed, that having supported Lord's plan, according to his argument, was to leave -the measure in a former Parliament, he should state these things just as they were before Parliament had briefly tp the House his ground for thinking that the interfered at al:, and to restore the power, at present Bill now before them was entitled to their support. suspended by Parliament, of granting Sinecure Offices The question respecting a different sentiment being in reversion. The Noble Lord had expressed his held in another place, for alluding to which the Ne- concern, that he, and those who acted with him in ble Lord had so properly been called to order, was opposition to Ministers, should not have the power not a subject for the consideration of that House, of granting offices for five years. From the tone and particularly on a question of economy and finance. manner of the Noble Lord, he was almost led to be- On other questions, a similar difference of opinion : lieve the Noble Lord had an idea of retiring from bad prevailed, but the perseverance of the House had ! office ; but he had at last civalified his speech by ultimately triumphed. This had been particularly adding—" if they should ever be thought fit to be evident in the case of the Slave Trade, where the re- come Ministers of the Crown." Those who sat on peated rejection of the Bill had, in another quarter„ his side of the House were, homelier, very little ob never been urged as a reason against its being enter- I liged to the Noble Lerd for his tender concern ; but Pained in that House. The Noble Lord had taken he hoped, whenever they did come into the service of up the question in the light of economy and of a po- the Crown, they would never be found eager to hunt litical arrangement. For many years the question had after places, pensions, or offices ; but would exert been agitated for a total abolition of sinecure offices, themselves in exercising their abilities for the welfare as being subservient to'no useful purpose. The ar- of their country, and the honour and dignity of the gpmerit in favour of retaining them had been, that State. The great merit of the Bill is, that it will though in theory sinecure and office are contradictory , give power to Parliament to reward real merit, and terms, yet that Mr. Burke had seen in these offices a : will put it out of the power of the Crown to give Si meani of rewarding efficient services—and that if, necure Offices where there is no merit / at all: as such abstracting from theory, you looked round into pub- he thought it worthy of his support, and of the ap lic life, you would find the individuals who were best , probation of the House. . entitled to pensions in the possession of sinecure offices.) Mr. sTEni EN said he objected to the Bill, be- This no doubt held good with respect to almost all cause it went to cancel all previous merit. If persons, the great offices of die State, which would generally I had rendered the most eminent services to the State, be found in the possession of some individual or his' and to the couno y, during four years, and at the end immediate descendant, who had rendered emine,nt ! of that period went out of office, it would be out of services to the public. TO the justice of this no ob- : the power of the Crown to reward them for their jection could be made, and herd the Noble Lord and; past services. He alluded to what Mr. Canning had himself were agreed. If the present Bill were of an i laid some stress upon, viz an adherence to office in aristocratical tendency, he should say, that such al the Noble Lord and his friends. The Right Hon. measire could not be adopted without injury to the , Gentleman had himself been one of those friends for Constitution, and to such a measure he should never some years, and he cc wish to see him once more give . his . support—but, on the contrary, 'tile Bill ena- ! pass the narrow straight between his present seat and bled the Crown to allure more talent into the service i that of theNobleLord—(a laugh)—though he should of the State. The Noble Lord had stated that the be sorry that his services should go unrewarded for Bill would bear hard upon - those who had'not been, i five years: It had been said elsewhere, that Opposi as he expressed it, in the habits of office. If the , tion had the Right Hon. Gentleman's speeches, bur Crown were in possession of a fixed fund, and at any l Ministers had his votes—" I take her body, you her given time for the reward of public services, this ar.! mind," &c. as the Poet said. He (Mr. Stephen) gurrient would'hold good. But this was not the case. should, • haivever, Mee glad to have both body and He himself was no zealot on this subject. The mode mind in this case ; and that, while the Right Ho was indifferent, the means were the question. But if nourable Gentleman gave his side of the House his the mode of rewarding services by sinecure offices vote, he would cease to favour Opposition with had fallen into disrepute, then some other mode must the assistance of his speeches. The Right Ho be resorted to frir accomplishing tile end. The Noble nourable Gendoman had said, that Sinecure Places Lord said the Bill would make time the test of merit.' ex vi termini were opprobrious, but that pensions were But a test must be had, and what test so simple as not so. On this point he differed with him in opi tirne ? The question was to give the Crown a power nioa ; he thought there was nothing offensive in the limited by thee, in preference to a power limited by one more than in the other.' That high authority chance—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord seemed to Doctor Johnson, in the first edition of his Dictionary, foiget that the power of granting offices in reversion had put down to the wotJ, Pension, " wages given had been suspended; for to make his plan complete to a State Hireling for treason to his country ;" and he must do away that Bill. A power was substi- ' though by his leaving it °tit of his second edition, it tutcd to reward merit, aqd to prevent abuse, a cer- appeared that great Lericograp - her bad changed his tarn time was selected. As things now stood, the opinion, he was afraid the public had not done the -Clown might have a great Minister, who upon his re- same, but that the impression of the first 'still re tirement irom office, might sink into poverty because mined. The Learned Gentleman then adverted to the sinecure offices were lull. The system of sine.! that part of the Bill which proposed the abolition of cures was so.full of uncertainty, that Parliament had , West India sinecures. The salaries of these offices, been bbliged to prop it up, by providing in some in- which were generally held by depiity, while the prin. stances a suitable remuneration. This was the cap ' cipal resided in England, mostly arose from mci with respect to the office of Chancellor—as he,' dental fees in law -suits, which were not much felt by in mast 'cases, gave up a large income from profes- the litiganti, while, in other cases, as in the A 7mi tion“l exertions, and as his habits and modes of life r tityCourts, great part of them was paid by foreigner,. were altered, it was judged proper that he should be ,n some caszs it was an advantage that the printipal indemnified hy a pension for life. But this would not should be resident in this country. From tile ii.ao apply generally, and in the case of subordinate of- riou abuses which existed in Courts of Justice iii tilt fices nu provision had been made by Act of Parlia: West Indies, it was most important that credurs anent.* Half a century ago the system had beau s a should not depend for the recov er y o f th e i r debts' On . 5 0 Indies, but should ba* * principal ri '.country, where justice twit be readily responsible for the money placed in the sttbsritute. On these grounds. he must part of the prlscnr measure. Mr. PONSONBY eiplained. Sir J. NE WPO la observed, that th. Ireland, particularly those connected Justice, were not so much objection of the sums they took out of the pock. is as that they stood in the way of imp:o' Mr. H. THORNTON contended, meats of the Noble Lord (Castlereagh, to support the recommittal of the Bill, witted that the Wes; India sinecures ought to be re gulated. It was chiefly to the moral principle of übolishing sinecures that the public Inoked. They Were an anomaly in our Constitution which ought to be corrected, and the whole of tl:e system won't.] thus be rendered snore acceptable to the people. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that whatever objections might I'e mad! to cu ticular clauses of the Bill, it appeared to hi;u that against its principle no sound argument had brew adduced. Length of ;mile service was, perhars, the best criterion by which to judge of a man's title to the reward of a pension ; while on the other hamg the expectation of oblaii,ing sinecures might often prove fallacious, and it was placii.g a man in a crawl situation by making him thus dependent on contin gencies. The expectation of reversionary grants which his Noble Friend had talked of, might prove still more fallacioue s • It was converting public re wards Into a sort of lottery, where every thing de. pended oil c Lance, and not On Merit or service. He did net think the Bill diminisi:ed the influence of the Crown; h? supported it because it provided re wards for public service in a manner more acceptable to pe.)ple than the present mode. Sir F. FLOOD considered this Bill as one of onal economy, and one that would satisfy the pet ple out of doors, and as not infringing on the perste , Lives of the Crown. He wished Gentlemen to read the list of Sinecures in Ireland, and there they v:atili find Governors and Constables of Castles where no castles existed, and Val loos other places equally dis graceful, and to which large salaries were attached. —And where there were any duties attached to offices, the holders employed their journeymen to do the duty. Mr. 11 USKISSON was of opinion, the House should pursue and complete the work which had been pursued by every Administration for SO years past, to chi away sinecures, ani attach a fixed salary to each actual office. Mr. %V. FITZGERALD objected tq the clause, limiting the Pension List of Ireland to 410,000 pet' annum. The House, on a former occasion last year, fixed it at £BO,OOO. He also objected 'to the Bill, ai going to ,transfer that patronage which belonged to the Crown to the House of Commons. Mr. *ANKES, in explanation, 'said, he had been induced to restrict the, clause relative to the Peesion List cf Ireland, by a reflection on the embarrassed state of the Revenue of Ireland. Colonel BARRY MAXWELL . conter.ded, that it was a breach of faith on the part of Parliament to attempt to reduce the Pension Li t t of Ireland, which was fixed at £BO,OOO, by contract between Parlia ment and his Majesty. Mr. WILBERFORCE did not agree to what had been stated by a Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Fitz gerald), that by this Bill the patronage was taken out of the hapds of the Crown, and placed in the House. The contrary was the fact, as the Lords of the Trea' sury had a power of conferring the pensions as 'they should think fit. He expressed his hopes that the House, at the commencement of a new Parliament, could not do less than it had done last Session, at the termination of a Parliament. Ir. LYTTLETON supported the measure, Which' he thought one of equity and expediency. He was of opinion there was no More grandeur in that which was inefficient than there was solid strength in that wh;ch was rotten and decayed. ' Mi. RYDER was ready to acknowledge, that there might be roon. for doing away some places ;' but he could not agree to the present Bill, which struck at all the constitutional influence of the Crown, by doing away, by one sweeping clause, 300 places. ' Mr. PROI HE ROl. supported the Bill; and con tended, that the opposition to the measure was un fairly brought forward on the present occasion. ' Mr. CROKER denied that the opposition was brought forward unfairly, the debate had been' ie served to the present stage by a sort of convention the House had come to on the subject. With respect to the Bill he was decidedly against it. Mr. W. SMITH was convinced the character of the House would suffer by the rejection of the pill ; for, however the arguments against the Bill might convince persons in the House, they would not con vince any one out of it. The House then divided ; for the Rliort being brought up 94—against it 80. The Report was then brought up. On the Resolution for limiting the Pension List of Ireland to 440,000 being read, Mr. PONSONBY opposed the clause, giving an historical account of the hereditary revenue in Ire land, and the compact eptered into between the Crown and the Irish Parliament, 'and trti.u...l that nothing should be inserted in the Bill contrary to the terms of that compact. Mr. CANNING agreed with the Right Honour able Gentleman (Mr. Ponsonby) in his opp.A.tion to the clause relative to the Irish Civil List. The public faith of Parliament had been pledged, a ad tha, pledge, whether direct or implied, should be adhered to. Mr. BANKES said, that observing, the gperal feeling against this clause, he was wAling to with draw it. The other clauses were read and agreed to, and the Bill was ordered to be read a third time on Thursday. WEYMOUTH VOTERJ BILL Mr. Alderman ATKINS propostd the.postpone ment of the Weymouth Voters' Bill to Thursday ; but, after some objection had been made, it %v.v. or dered to be read a second time to-morrow, witi understanding that, it should stand over in favo-r of any other more important matter that shoiod site before the House. The other Orders of the Dag were dip :std c Adjourned at Half-past Eleven. n I Ii to 11 I T 1 P al li in 13] tc al si S It in the Welt resident in this enforced, and e hands of hi s ' k ust oppose this I 111 sinecures is ni with G arts of 'b acci.ort •h; s of the people, overnent. • , . that the erg" ■ - h) went ratFue 11, since he 2d. . • fa , am ought to bt re.