Star. — London, England, 1829-06-03 00:00:00

times shown themselves ready to carry into effect legal provisions, that were abundantly sufficient to put an end to the evils complained of ?—[The Right Honoirabit Secretary then read some extracts from the Acts of Parliament applicable to the present irregularities in Spitalfields. from which it appeared that persons eon• victed of the offences set forth in the petition were liable_ to be imprisoned for three month:.] He then pro :ended to observe, that, if parties were not themselves sufficiently interested to come forward and take *dean tage of the laws for the protection of their own pro• petty, what could they expect the Government to do ? If the policy of this country had been to make the Exe cutive Government the public prosecutors then the an swer would be obvious. A reference to the measures that had been taken would show that he had done all in Ms power to put matters upon a better footing than they bad been in the quarter in question. Even in temporary arrangements the department with which he was connected bad not been wanting. Out of the small police force placed at the disposal of the Govern ment seventy-nine bad been sent to the district of Spitalfields, for the purpose of preserving order at the punishment of whipping to have been inflicted upon one of the offenders. He had further to state, that he had written a letter to the officer commanding at the Tower, that he should be prepared to give military aid in case the civil power was not found to be sufficient, for, in any event, he was determined that the law should be es forced. He must be allowed to say, that the workmen bad behaved in a most shameful manner of late—that they were beginning to prove themselves unworthy of the disposition which had been recently shown towardsl them—unworthy of the relief which had been so libe-1 rally afforded—and if they persevered in their present courses he hesitated not to say that they would all be involved in one common ruin. Under the most favoer- able circumstaneesots much as the people of Spitalfields could do was to compete with the manufacturers in Manchester, and if they supposed that by persevering in their present courses any good could accrue to their own interest they would find themselves grievously mis taken. One effect of their perseverance would be, that the master manufacturers would resort to other places, whither they would transfer their capital. The ruin that must then ensue was too obvious to be insisted on. It had been proved that the workmen at pre sent so much discontented could, if they thought proper, earn from .255. to 355. per week ; and he con• fessed it did appear to him most unaccountable that eight thousand or nine thousand persons, who were receiving much smaller sums, should contribute out of their limited pittance to support persons in idleness who had the power of obtaining so fair a remuneration for their labour. He greatly lamented that the working classes should be so blind to their real interests. In Lancashire and Yorkshire the manufacturers were scat cely able to obtain sufficient wages to maintain themselves and their families, yet they were so infatu ated as to appropriate a portion of the small earnings to enable the silk weavers in Spitalfields, who, if they would, could earn more than they, to live without wont. (The Right Honourable Gentleman then read a letter from a manufacturer, stating that those who were en gaged in sealing looms could easily procure from 255. to 355. a week, while those who from the North of England sent up contributions to enable the Spitalfields weavers to eat the bread of idleness, could not ear n more thau Bs. or 9s. a week.) He greatly lamented that the masters should have yielded in the first instance to the demands of the workmen. It would have been infi nitely better for them to have resisted to the uttermost than to have acceded to unjust demands. If they once I brought their minds to be convinced that they could not pay the wages demanded, they ought to say so once and for all. Any thing was better than temporary conces sion. He had received a memorial on the subject of the discontents prevailing in Spitalfields, and his answer was this, that he had sent all the police force that could possibly be spared, and if the civil power proved insuf ficient, military force would not be wanting. All that could be done had been done; and all the while the parties were calling for the co•operation of Govern., ment, why did they not apply to the Magistrates, wise were so laudably applying so large a portion of their time to remedying the existing evils, and correcting the' bad spirit that was in activity ? In conclusion, he begged to express an earnest hope that the masters woul4 not yield to intimidation. Mr. P. THOMSON said, that the present Peti tioner was the first to come forward to suppress the mutinous spirit that prevailed. He regretted that the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite should have overlooked the difficulty of applying the law in this particular case. In order to carry on a successful prosecution it was ne cessary it should be borne out by evidence, and in such a state of society as that which prevailed in Spitalfields, it became impossible to procure that evidence. It was, moreover, not to beartpected that master manufacturers would risk their own property for the -public good ; and. even were proverty out of the question. the per sonal danger was such as few men had sufficient nerve to encounter. Mr. Moore had shown great resolution and firmness, but they were not to expect that in every quarter. . Sir G. PHILLIPS confessed himself an advocate for high wages, as high as time and circumstances would admit. He had no doubt that all acquainted with the manufacturing districts would concur in the opinion that the disposition to combine for the advance of wages bore no proportion to the low rate of wages in many parts. Mr. HUME was a foe to combination, and was anxi ous to state that the individual from whom the petition emanated deserved the highest credit for the manner in which he had acted. He (Mr. Hume) for one, would state his conviction that since the Act against comb'. nation had passed, for one combination that now ex• isted, twenty-existed previously. He concurred in the statement of the Right Hon. Gentleman, that every means ought to be adopted to bring offenders to justice. Mr. G. DAVENPORT said, that since he had pre anted a petition on this subject to the House he had received numerous letters from Stockport, stating that there had been no deterioration of prices there. He trusted that the manufacturers there would show that they were no parties to oppressive conduct. At the present moment, however, it was difficult to tell wi,r. eher the statements of the masters or the.workmen sere most correct. Mr. EYLER was desirous of expressing his deep and sincere regret that Government Aad not instituted an inquiry into the state of the silk trade of this country, because, under existing circumstances, there were so many expiate statements as to render it utterly impos sible to arrive at any certain or accurate conclusion on the subject. It was under the conviction that such must be the case that he was induced to propose the appointment of a Committee, by which inquiries might be made. In the district which he had the honour to represent there would be to-morrow a public meeting, in order to enter into a subscription to provide the means of relieving the thousand,: who were now almost perishing from want of the common necessaries of life. La was willing to bear testimony to the kind and can did conduct of the masters generally, and to state that in the place he represented, three only of the masters had sought to reduce the ptiees. This example, how. .ever, °fliers bad been obliged to follow. Some means were undoubtedly necessary to be adopted to put an end to the differences between the masters and the workers, be very deeply regretted that the sub ject had not undergone the fullest investigation when a Committee of Inquiry relative to the silk trade was proposed. Mr. V. FITZGERALD felt assured that the Hon. Member would regret that his language should have the effect of conveying to persons out of the House an impression that, because the • Honourable Member's motion was not granted, the breaches of peace that had been committed might be justified—(Cries of 41 No, no").--He did not mean to impute to the Honourable Gentleman that such a conclusion Might be drawn from what the Honourable Member had said, but he would contend that his language might convey out of doors an impression that there were individuals in the House of Commons who were inclined to regret the course that Parliament bad adopted, inasmuch as this course might have tended to produce the disturbances, the existence of which all persons must lament.• Surely the Honourable Gentleman must be con►cious that the re• cent attempts at Spitaiflelds to put down the masters there had as little connection wish the Honourable Member's motion as the statement that they had pro ceeded from the principle of our manufactures. Could the Honourable Member say that any thing which had fallen from the Honourable Member for London had justified him in asserting that that Honourable Member had represented the silk trade as in a flourish ing state? No; the recent debate upon this subject was sufficient proof that this pripciple was generally admitted, however individuals might differ as to the cause of the evil and the mode of affording a remedy. The petitioner bad stated that the recent combinations bad forced him to dismiss from his employment some persons who earned 25 shillings a week, and that not one of his workmen earned less than fifteen shil lings weekly. As the House was on the eve of sepa rating for a time, it would be a subject of regret if any erroneous impression were suffered to exist. Whatever difference of opinion might exist as to the value or im- portance of protecting our manufactures by prohibition, there was one sentiment in which all were bound to concur, vit. a determination to enforce the law as re gards combination, which produced such fatal come. quences to all parties; and he thought that, with re spect to that particular district of London in which much distress existed, the people of that district ought to know that if they listened to the 4anguage of men who sought to inflame them at public meetings there could be but one result, that distress and misery to the men must follow the ruin of the masters, and that, while combination existed, these must a transfer of capital from that place, which unquestionably was not best suited to this branch of industry. No men would embark their capital in this manufacture if they were to be exposed to such scenes and circumstances as those described in the petition now before the House. He bad felt it his duty to say so much on this subject, be cause be had considered that he ought not to leave the observations of the Honourable Member for Coventry unanswered. Mr. FYLER explained. He never meant to say that, the outrages that had been committed had arisen in consequence of the rejection of his motion. He bad merely said that if the House bad gone into an inquiry it would have been enabled to ascertain the weight that was to be attached to es parte statements. bk. V. FITZGERALD explained. Mr. WAITHMAN regreped that there had not been an inquiry relative to the silk trade, inasmuch as the House would then have been able to ascertain the ex tent of the evils. No one regretted more than he did the excesses that bad taken place, both in reference to the workmen and to the masters. He knew that ave. ral masters had materially suffered; and he did not believe that labour had been so badly paid for as it had beet represented. He had many letters which incon testably proveci that 40,000 hand•looms were in use, three of whicb•might be managed by a child of thirteen years of age, who might thus earn 9s. a week. It was, be thought, impossible for the silk trade to prosper unless the manufacturers were afforded adequate pro tection. Mr. Secretary FEEL said be should be sorry to say a word that might appear to cast a reproach upon the individual from whom this petition emanated, for he had manifested a desire to make any personal sacrifice in order to procure the attainment of the object he had in view. But he (Mr. Secretary Peel) had desired to express his determination to repress all acts of violence; and it was because he felt for the distresses that existed that he aas anxious to prevent their accumulation. He had received information that in one of the manufac turing towns of the north of England, where a daring outrage was committed upon an industrious man, who was willing to work for less than the usual wages, the master who gave evidence against two men charged with the crime stated that one of these two men was at the very time receiving thirty-three shillings a week, and the other forty shillings weekly. It was his belief that the greatest subordination to the law existed where the greatest degree of suffering was endured. Mr. WARD, in explanation, stated that he never, meant to say that the silk trade was not in a depressed state; the petitioner had stated that the usual state of wages was 15s. a week, which was by no means a large sum. The Hon. Member for Coventry had complained of ex park statements. He (Mr. Ward) had been most cautious not to receive ex parte statements from the masters, although he had, in tact, obtained es parte statements from the men. The Petition was then read and laid upon the table. YISHERISS. Mr. FERGUSSON rose to present a Petition from fishermen in the county of Wigton, praying for a conti nuance of the bounties on the fisheries. The Honourable Member said that Petitions of a similar character had, without number, been presented to the Board of Trade, and. he regretted to say, without effect. He was aware that there were objections to all bounties, but those who made them had not sufficiently considered the distinc tions between them. Bounties on exportation ought not, in his opinion, to be granted, or at least in very few cases, because they tended to increase the price of the article in the home market, and to cheapen it to the foreigner. But bounties on production had an effect directly contrary, and particularly the bounty on the herring fishery. The petitioners were backed by the sen timents of the Gentlemen of the county of Wigton, who thought that calamity irretrievable would follow the , withdrawal of the bounties which were intended to form' a permanent part of the system of this country. The importance of these bounties would appear from the number of persons engaged in the fisheries, who were ready, in times of difficulty, to be called in to the as sistance of the national marine. Some time ago there were 46,800 seamen employed in the coast fisheries ; of labourers and all 81,000; to which, if 50,000 em ployed in the deep sea fishing were added, there would appear 100,030 'Mein seamen. By the withdrawal of the bounties the lives of these persons, would bb put in jeopardy; at all events the means of their exist ence. The Americans and the punch bad no object more in view than to keep up their force of seamen by bounties on fisheries. He thought that the attention of Government should be directed to the consideration of the propriety of ahering the condition of a body of in• dustrtous people. now when the production of manufac ture exceeded the demand. He denied that any loss was sustained by the grant of a bounty on the fisheries, as the money thus given was returned to the State in the reduced price of an article of food. He did not ask Government to pledge . itself to the continuance of the bounties, but not to withdraw them precipitately, and without a fair trial. On the motion that the petition be brought up, Colonel WILSON rose to caress his concurrence in what had fallen from the Honourable Member. He looked upon the fisheries as the nursery of our seamen, and he considered the withdrawal', the bounties an act of great cruelty. Sir S. hiORLAND said that if the cessation of the bounties happened at say time, it could not happen at a worse than the pre sent—(Hear). Mr. BRRNAL referred to what had fallen trolls him on a pre vious night regarding the price of Scotch herrings, and the correct ness of which be maintained in opposition to the sentiments of the Right Honourable Member for Liverpool. He was afraid that, although the bounty should be continued, the trade would be di sisinisked by the greater cheapness of Norwegian herrings. Mr. HUSKISSON said that, in fact, the bounty had been for the making of the barrels, and not the catching of the fish. Mr. PKNDARVES bad presented three petitions from Corn wall on the same subject, but he did not believe that the small bounty gives could be of much use to the petitioners. Mr. V. FITZGERALD did not asctibe to the insti tutions of bounties the advanta4es ascribed by the Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Fergusson); but even ad mitting that he did. he thought at least there must be some period for their termination. If they were insti-1 tuted for encouraging and instructing the Sc mist' fishermen, it appeared to him that their work was dose. In the Acts relative to them the termination of what he must call that inconvenient system had been contem plated. He was only carrying into effect the intention of these who preceded bun in office, and who. when they adopted their measures, were in communication with the boards for encouraging the fisheries. As the Act did not expire until next April there was sufficient time to bring the subject before Parliament; but while he Would readily consider it in every shape in which it was presented, be could not assent to a continuance or augmentation of the bounties. Mr.W. SMITH was opposed to the whole system of bounties. The Petition was then brought up and laid upon the table. On the motion of Dr. PHILLIMORE various returns were ordered connected with the Building of Churches and Chapels. On the motion of Mr. BRRNAL returns were ordered connected with the claims of British subjects under the Convention entered into with France. PA RLIAMXIITA RT REFORM. The Marquis of BLANDFORD rose and said—ln pursuance, Sir, of the notice which I have given, to move this day certain resolutions upon the subject of reform in the system of our representation, I rise now to state and explain the specific grounds upon which I am prepared to argue its propriety ; and in so doing I feel it necessary to request the indulgence of Honourable Members, assuring them that if, in the cootie of my observations, I advert to a subject , the discussion on which I am sensible is unpalatable to a greater part of this House, I shall do so as tenderly ail may be able, and I shall urge it merely as a season to induce those who, like myself, may apprehend mis chief from the introduction of a new party in this House to embrace my views, and to acquiesce in the resolu tions I intend to move. But Honourable Memben,l am persuaded, will also feel my peculiar situation, and will admit that, having originally rested the expediency of this measure upon special grounds, I cannot, wub con sistency, now cast them wholly aside, and pro k ded at once to the consideration of it upon grounds new and general ; and no sincere friend of reform will, I trust, be disposed to quarrel with me, or to refuse his support to my resolutions, if, now avowing, and ready to act upon, an enlarged and more liberal view of the whole question, I still am consistent with myself, and press the consideration of a danger not clearly impossible. I do, however, assure the Huse that upon either view of the question I will circumscribe my remarks to the utmost of my power, and will not trespass lung upon the atten tion they may indulge me with ; and first, Sir, I would observe, that in courtesy to former advocates of the measure, I would willingly have left it in their hanJs, for it seems right and reasonable that those who hive argued so powerfully against decayed boroughs, and proprietary influence, should go on with their own work; but, as they seem to have declined the patriotic undertaking, the conviction I feel of its pressing neces sity is too powerful for me to heed the charge of teme rity in thus presuming to succeed to their office. We shall now see who are the declaimers and who the doers in the work of parliamentary regeneration—we shall now see who are true and steady to their purposes, and who would wish to give those purposes a long adjourn ment—it will now be seen who are strenuous in their wishes to purify Parliament, and protect the great in terests of the country. The question has been now for some time laid upon the shelf—the Bills and draughts of Bills which have been pseeared are now, from long neglect, covered with dust, and buried in oblivion. Hon. Gentlemen, the former friends and advocates of the measure, may if they please bestow upon Ministers the compliment of their silence, but I do not feel disposed to imitate their courtesy. Every day's experience proves the necessity of some measure of this sort. The country expects, I may say demands, some statutory provision for the safety of its interests—the interests of its agriculture, its trade, its manufactures, its finance, and especially the interests of the Protestant commu nity, against the influx and increase of the Roman Catholic party. The whole internal constitution of this House has been revolutionized; this new state of things requires new enactments; an imperious necessity has been superadded to the already exist ing propriety of putting down the boroughlooager and his trade; our rights and oar libertses are in jeopardy as long as majorities in this House are to be obtained by buying seats and Selling services; and, though I may fail on this occasion in esta blishing upon the minds of the majority of this House a conviction of this truth, I shall persevere in my efo forts to upon the corruption and proclaim the danger of these practices. Sir, it may perhaps be thought that the magnitude of this question, and the splendid (pence of its former advocates, should have d - me from rashly embarking upon 'the consideration it; but, though I may despair ordoing it justice, I feel Its importance, or rather its necessity, too strongly leave the thing unattenspied through a conscious of inability; and, in asserting and advocating my own peculiar views of it, I am fully Prepared for the imputation that those views are erroneous, that my fears are groundless, and that • the measures and means of reform which I would propose are neither' called for by the exigencies of the times,, nor by the existence of any real danger from the projects of the Roman Catholic body. speak o 1 the body, Sir, as a large. political party to dm -State t , I spank not of individuals. 'Of itidiv dat ida bf that'body I would say there is no one in this not mote than I am to admit their honour and integrity ; n ot am speaking of a large class and denomination of dividuals—a large and powerful political party, ef sz or seven millions of men—a parts acknowledging a . common head and centre ot union, a spiritual Sover e i gn, and that Sovereign residing in a foreign country, t o such a state of things, and under such an intermixture of foreign and domestic relations, I shall :laminae to w o k that it is the part of prudence to prevent the gro wt h of Catholic power in this Hoare. Those who may be di w , posed to ridicule these opinions ate to be told that they are as ignorant of human nature, and the workings of pe n , spirit, as they are of the energies of the Romish church, As soon as Gentlemen of that persuasion enter N. House they will be found to form a party. That part y will he considered by the Roman Catholics of G ms Britain and Ireland as their real tepresentative,.... as ; h e special defenders of their rights, the vindicators of their wrongs, the promoters of their wishes and their h This Roman Catholic party, like all other p 'thee, bath in and out of this House, will be desirous of increasing its political strength ; and, lo king. tel the energy of that body, its union of purpose, and extensive co-ope rat i on, I am convinced that they will enter the Borough. market with better chances and larger means of par. chase than any of their competitors. Seats in thi s House will be bought up by the agents of oc,, wealthy, powerful, and enterprising body; and tens to their county strength in ',eland will be add e d their burgage tenure strength in this country ; e st i their whole number of representatives will pres. Dt a well-ordered and compact phalanx, animated by on e spirit, and impelled to the same measures by the us e motives and purposes. Let it not be thought, Sir, that I am disposed to contend that any immediate dangei is to be apprehended from the magnitude of their numb,' • in this House (though, if the reports which circulate be tine, it would Appear that the system which I am tote- telling has already made a beginning); but I do con. tenJ that we are not b and to wait till danger threatens, I do contend that it is the part of prudence to &via the means of prevention and defence, and I do insit that those means are justifiable in the prospect of a pos. sibility of danger. But I will not dwell longer upon this tope. I feel 1 owe apologies to the House fur having dilated at such length upon it, and I will now proceed to a far more important and interesting division of my subject; and I do so under feelings of less embatrasament and greater confidence than those! have experienced while endeavouring to enforce the view already resoled. I cannot but entertain a tea. seeable hope that a large portion of the Members of this House will be disposed to agree with me upon general principles, even though they should not be of opinion that 1 have made out any case for the necessity of re. fora by the special grounds I have tiken. If, Sir, in the days of Locke, and still later, in the days of Black. stone, this measure were deemed expedient (and I ap. peal to both these writers for support upon this point), subsequent events, and increased and increasing evils, make the measure now a measure of necessity and sot of expediency. It is no longer to be tolerated that the best interests of the country, and the dearest rights of the subject, and I will add, the most valuable privileges of this House are to be compromised and endangered by borough contractors and sellers of seats in Patliament. But let Honourable Members listen to the words of Locke himself upon this question—N It being the interest as well as the intention of the people to have a fair and equal representation, whoever brings it nearest to that is an undoubted friesd to and establisher of the Government, and cannot miss the consent and approbation of the community." And again be sap, af It is not a change from the present state, which per. haps corruption or decay has introduced, that makes ao inroad upon the Government, but the tendency of it to injure- or oppress the people, and to set up on part or patty, with a distinction from and an output subjection to the rest. Whatsoever cannot but be acknowledged to be of' advantage to the society and people in general, upon just and lasting measure, will always,when done, justify itself; and whenever the people shall choose their representatives upon just and undeniably equal measures, suitable to the original frame of the Government, it cannot be doubted to be the will and act of the society, whoever permitted or ,caused them se to do." But, Sir, 1 will not now enter "upon any wide survey of this question—l will not sow touch upon the nature of the suffrage—nor will I seek to determine the principle by which the right of voting should be regulated. Neither will I enter farther epos what has beencalled the philosophyof the representation, , nor. attempt, by statistical calculations, to settle how many Members should be returned by the landed, how Many by the menied, how many by the trading in. cc:est. Plans for the speedier returns of Members opt* new elections, and for the limitation of the duration d Parliament, shall form DO part of my present purpose. I will confine myself to matters much more simple is themselves, and consequently more easy for statement. My wish, Sir,. is to witness the extinction of close and decayed boroughs, and to transfer their representations (as it may be settled hereafter) to other places. To what places, towns, or counties, and in what measure and proportion to each, must be left to be considered is Committee. But the extinction of these proprietary seats, burgage tenure influence, is called for by the to juries and mischiefs it inflicts on the country. Ca there be any thing more monstrous, Sir, than that seta electors, beaded by the parish constable (I allude Gatton), should send two Hon. Members to this Hogan that two snore should represent the interesting ruins ail well-peopled sheepfolds of Sarum? What reason co we discover in the 'nature of things, or in the principle of representation, why some Hon. Members in thi House should have neither houses nor inhabitants o represent—whyothers should only represent individedi —why throe should be so many whose constituents do i ota exceed tea? Can there, Sir, be any thing in axe open defiance of common sense and political expediesti than that 554 votes should send 56 Members of it liament (a ninth part of the whole Home of Commas)? What cause caul* found either in the mineral or the agit cultural wealth of Cornwall that it should be so prof of Honourable Members in this House, althoogh the population of all the Cornish boroughs is not and greater than that of Nottingham alone. And, Pt must remain a subject of alarm to many—of orris to all—that according to a calculation taken in 18 1 4 one-half of the English and Welsh Representatives is diis.House should be returned by about eleven thoess 4 persons, and the other half by about nine minim* Slrs this is neither the time nor the place to enter into lies verifications of facts. It is sufficient to lay Veal° future inquiry, and I believe it will then appear lb % I. hare udderstated the anomalies of our ',reseal!. don. Sirohe answer given to all this is•-•" works well." This bas been the ready reply No the time that tht late Mr. Canning's eloquence it currency and made . it popular. s. It weeks • Trui; it does work very. mill for the jobbers ill l'" balllaglsanaeket•-is does work very well for all OW der 16 - 1100trittad*Ofit, and distinction by the s peet!l and I dare say Mutters will be the last to say it woo hi. +. - '