Star. — London, England, 1826-05-24 00:00:00

, ms 2 500 in the next, bat eqaaickptities in both. WAh respect to the secoif Bill, it was mill less necessary that he should trouble their I.ordships at length on that stage of the discussion. He confessed that whatever objection applied to the first Bill, he did not see that it applied to 'he second. It rood on a Moil soundir-priaciple. The po • er which it conferred was an invidious power to he e.-4, rived to a G .vernment, and they asked for no coofi.lence o I ich would not be granted to any Govern me it. Let them be tried, not as individuals, but as public men. .Might not circumstances happen between the present period and the Autumn to make the exercise of such a power necessary ? It would probably be said, why apply for that power legally, which you might use if compelled by necessity without audio/ tz ition, and then throw yourselves upon Parliament for indemnity. In a case of unforeseen necessity oo set of individuals would certainly be fit to exercise the Government if therd:d not act on their discretion and then throw themselves upon Parliament. But when circum stances displayed themselves before hand, it was the duty of Ministers to come down and state the case, to ask for a Bill of Indemnity in advance, and to procure the power of doing that legally, which they knew • they would be obliged to do illegally. That was the course which had been followed by his Majesty's Go. vernment. They had so desire for such an invidious power, but he conceived that they would sleep with more • ease, and that their Lerdhips would separate with morn ease, also, if that power were invested is the bands of the add 'nitration, to be exercised en their own responsibility, as neeessky , might require. He knew that individuals bad been led to hisses that this was tampering with the general em of the Coss lairio. frees (Hear, hoar ! tee Seri ).—Or if not with the whole system, that it was intended to provide eel= ' as an argument In favour of any fat s = alterations which adebt be in eentemplatioe. He not only denied this, but he should have no • objection to alter the Bills in such a manner as to show that they stood on their own ground for the relief of the country in 18514 leaving the general question tgbe fairly aad impartially discussed in another Session. Ibe Noble Bari then moved that the &M Corn BiU be read a ascend time. The Earl of MALMESBURY said that he had no objection to the partial and occasional introduction of foreign corn. This, in certain circumstances, might be highly expedient, and might operate in relation to the genTral system of the Corn Laws like the safety valve of a steam-engine. He saw nothing, however, in the present circumstances of the country to call for the measures now tinder the consideration of the House.— The average price of wheat last year was 68s. it was now only 60:. per quarter. He might therefore approve of the introduction of foreign corn last year Without being bound to concur in a similar measure at the pre sent time. And wh. n he saw two measures introduced at once having the same general tendency, he might think it good policy to support the first in order to prevent the second from coming into operation, al though he had the same objection to both, that they were calculated to encourage the clamour out of doors. He thought it impossible that atter these discussions the subject should ever be approached dispassionately. It was a subject which ought to have been kept at arm's length. He did not quite understand the reasoning of the Noble Earl with respect to the periods at which the bonded corn was to be introduced. The holder, who it appeared was to have permission to introduce one moiety of what he held on the 15th July, and the second moiety on the 15. h of August, so far from feel. ing any wish to hold it back, would, he thought, prefer, if be could, to introduce the larger quantity at the earlier period, as the second period would reach nearly to the harvest. He feared he had also misunderstood the Noble Earl with respect to the occurrences of the year 1816: perhaps the Noble Lord had intended to mention the year 1818.--for, on referring to the pricer of 1816, he found that in May the average price of wheat was 7 ts. in June 745. and in August 82s. [Lord Liverpool h re Asked, 48 And what in December ?" alter which a mutual explanation took place respecting the mode in which the averages regulated importation.]— The N ble Earl then froceeded to say, that oae cir cumstance materially distinguished the year 1816 From the present ; in the year which preceded 1816, no im portation had taken place; last year there had been a considerable importation, which must operate to some • extent as a safeguard against scarcity. The Noble Earl then referred to the present price of barley and oats, as compared with the price at former periods, to repel the presumption of scarcity. So far from con trivances having been resorted to in order to keep down the averages and exclude foreign corn, the contrary had happened. Corn dealers had been convicted on one occasion of going down to Wales for the purpose 51 selling parcels of corn to each other at high prices in order to exalt them, with a view to open the ports. This, he believed, had taken place in other instances, where such clear proof could not be adduced. He had trespassed so often on their Lotdships' atten tion upon this subject, that he oould confine himself now to a very few observations. The discuss* elite two measures at once he found to be incest. 'venient, as be was disposed to assent to one of them and to resist the other. To avoid a pep spective and contingent evil, they were inflicting A present and cettain one upon the country. He knew that in many of the country mai kets corn had already fallen six or seven shillings per quarter. The small farmer who now carried corn to market to Vovide for tie exp. uses of the nest harvest, would, instead of reali zing his 1001. or 1501. sustain a deduction of twenty per cent. His wife would in consequence be obliged to wear her stuff gown and he his coat for some time loager, instead of having new ones. So that the injury t.i farmers would eventually be shared by the mannfacol, terers. Or, which would still be worse, the agricultural labourers must suffer a diminution of wages. The effect of the measures would he prejudicial also to corn dealers. One individual had told him that he should be a loser of not less than 5,0004 The House bad not done him the honour to adopt his opi nion in favour of a Committee upon the present measures; he hoped however, that a Committee would be appointed before any altera tion of thigetteral system was effected ; he ousted that aU possible infermadia would be collected before the next Session. He would recommend applications to oar Consuls abroad; he bad confidence in them, but Se could put no trust in political economists. If any ne goeiations upon the subject of the foreign corn trade bad been entered into with other Governments, he hoped the papers would be laid upon their Lordship.' table early in the next Session. He could never consider it as a fixed trade, and should decidedly object to any treaty which should attempt to fix it. The LORD CHANCELLOR said, that he should take blame to himself it be did not distinctly allow that any measure likely to be prejudicial to the agricultural • interest must be an objectionable measure. Every other branch of national industry, every other description of property, was so dependent upon this, that they would be guilty of the greatest injustice to all if they did not extend their fostering care to the agricultural interest. He could not look upon the proposed measures as likely to produce injury to the agricultural interest, or to pre judice the existing system of law. With respect to the Bonded Corn, he apprehended that, upon the presen law, when corn reached a cestaid price, it might Ist admitted. Bat with respect tei the second Bin, wbieh appeared to him of ascot importance, he hoped for the isidullrnee of thbir Lordships whilst he addressed a few words to them upon the constitutional view of the sub ject. No man Was more averse than himself to the assumptinb of power against law. Yet he was con vinced that occasions might arise in which it would be necessary for Government, in which it would be.the imperative duty of - the Administration,, to take upon themselves the exercise of such power. Nor could any great evil arise from such assumption of power in cir cumstances of strong and over ruling necessity, pro vided only Oat proper recourse was afterwards had to Parliament to repair the temporary breach of the Con stitution. But if the occasion were foreseen, to leave themselves without any ocher resource than the exercise of illegal power, and then to apply to Parliament for an indemnity was a course of proceeding not to be en dured for a moment. The second Bill was a Bill en abling his Majesty in Council to do what his Majesty by an Order of Council might have done if no stich Act had passed. It had no connexion whatever with any future measures. It amounted only to this. Here it an antecedent power given, but Ministers are just as responsible as if that power had not been given. Looking at it, therefore, as it was—was it a measure by any Liir reasoning or just consequence affecting the Corn Laws? For himself if be thought it so, be should never vote for it. They mu-t support the landed Interest if they meant to support the Constitution of the country. The Act now proposed could no mere prejudice the future dis russion of the Corn Law than if they bad acted upon their own responsibility without law. He would not disguive from himself that the measure might produce consequences not foreseen; but he would repeat, if be bad not already repeated too often, that if he bad thought it was to be taken as a meson pledging any fiwahre of that House to an alteration of the Corn Laws enfavourable to lauded interest, he should never have consented to it. Earl GREY agreed with the Noble and Learned Lord, upon the principle that illegal power ought not to be resorted to without an overwhelming necessity, and also that the public safety might sometimes impe riously demand its exertion. But although he had. listened to his Noble and Learned Friend, if he might be permitted to call him so, with all the attention to which his abilities entitled him, he had failed to con vince him that these principles had any application in support of the present measures. The Noble Earl had described the measure, and described it truly, as an in demnity in advance. If he agreed in the expediency of granting such an indemnity before hand, it must be upon the indispensable condition that the necessity was clearly foreseen. He would inquire if this necessity existed now, when it began to exist ? Did it exist on the 18th of April? At that period the distress was as great as at the present time, and an eminent person, supposed to be the highest authority u;;on such a su6; ject, then emphatically declared that any change cf the Corn Laws could have no other effect than to increase the distress. Nothing of the kind was thought of till-riot and disturbance had occurred, and although he felt as much sympathy as any man for the persons enduring distress, it was, he thought, a dangerous lesson to the community, if distress was first to command attention when it exhibited itself in acts of outrage. Then he Must inquire whether this indemnity in advance was not likely to produce greater evils. than those against wh;ch the measure was intended to gu-rd. This bi ought him totbe point at issue. Would they not have avoided every via' by adhering to the same prudent course as upon the discussion upon the Corn Laws, and waiting fur the necessity if it should arise. The-Noble and Learned Lord had admitted that evils.inigl.t aiiiie,.but said that he did not foresee them, and if he did, that he would not have consented to the measure. What was the fict ? Great distress and confusion prevail, and Ministers come to Parliament and say that they 'Lave no ether m:asure to propose than one affecting the market for corn.; anus proclaiming to the community that they look •to an alteration of the Corn Laws as .a remedy for distress. The t ffect of the measure had already been felt, and might have been foreseen. The Noble Lori then com plained that the proposition placed the landed interest in a new and unheard-of situation. If they resisted it, they were to be held out as the persons who stood in the way of relief. He had no other interest than that which arose from land, but he could appeal to his whole life. if any person had thought it worth while to attend to it, to repel the imputation of merely mercenary motives. —He did not aff:mt more virtue than others, anJ he thought that every man by attending to the fair protee• Lion of his own interest best promoted the welfare c the community. It was impossible that the general ques tion could escape prejudice from the present measure. '—Was it not notorious that many persons had voted upon this express ground that it prepared the way for the repeal of the Cr:rn Laws ? Feeling as he did upon the subject, he had determined to take his share of whatever obloquy or reproach might attach to the expression of those feelings. The ques tion had, s'nze its first introduction, greatly changed its ground. At first it was founded upon a pressing and urgent necessity, but it hrd now dwindled to a possible necessity. He had taken some pains to inform himself upon the subject. and he could state that the prospects as regarded the next harvest were very good, and that both in England and Ireland the stock acorn,' whether in the hands of farii.ers or corn dealers, was greater than usual at this part of the year. The neces sity was then reduced to a bare possib lily equally ap plicable to any other year. The power demanded ought upon principle to have been indefinite. But he had other objections. The act would give Ministers the power of levying a tax upon the country not appro.' prated. by Parliament, and this on the eve of a general election. He thought such a proposition could only be entertained at a period when the salutary feelings of constitutional jealousy were entirely suspended. As to the doctrines of political economy which had been applied to this subject, the longer he lived the •more he doubted them. There was much of this science which he did not pretend to understand ; there were many of its principles to which he subscribed ; bat be looked upon it altogether as a humiliating proof of the feeble ness of human judgment, and the futility of human wisdom. Its theories were beautiful—they appeared to' be unassailable, till so.ne untoward accident, some unforeseen calamity, put them all to flight.- The sub ject of the Corn Laws demanded inquiry, and the advanced period of the Sesiion was no su4cient reams for refusing it. In 1815 he had expressed his wish for Committee, and he entertained the same wish at the pre-, sent time. He thought the importation price ought to be reduced, if the system was to be continued ; but he had no objection to a constant importation at a fixed duty, although nothing bad occurred under the present system that could be called a practical evil. Change and on certainty in the laws, and particularly in the laws re 'sting to human subsistence, could not but be preju dicial. When frequent changes took place, nobody could know bow to protect kis intereet. as had bees well observed and illustrated by she Welds lad. Oa a gantlet affecting the to ci that ,y class of the common*, and erealiswi with danger emicate themselves from the difficulties in which they were in. vity 4Wt h lttion e was sthr us op i th w t o re ot ad to r pme to er d ter. iviik" lt wes t in tle ufri enly U ra n y . volved, and to silence the clamour which their measures had pro ducal. He could not reconcile it to himself to give a silent vote upon this occasion, and be would now conclude with expressing his concurrence with the Noble Earl. The Eail of HARROW IVY observed, that the aver age price of 11505., the price fixed for opening the ports, admitted of corn being much higher in particular dis tricts, or for given periods, before such importation could take place, The question of price, too, must be taken with reference to the cif cumstances of the coun try ; 60s. which was now considered to be a fair price both for seller and consumer, was as much, in the pre lent situation of the country, as 804.11 .d been when the laws were passed. An inquiry into the general system of the Corn Laws would be, as it seemed to him (the Noble Earl) peculiafly inconvenient at the present moment, and it was a course which he should certainly object to. Noble Lords asked when it was, however, that the new light(vpon which they were acting had Woken upon Ministers? That was a question which, from the nature of it, it was impossible to answer. It' 'was the accumulation of distress, proh,bly, which had determined Ministers finally as to the course they should follow. Hopes had been entertained that the distresses of the country would have subsided far more rapidly than had been the case. But it ought to be stated, and distinctly, that nothing like intimidation at the late dis turblnces had weigheJ with the ministry in its deter mination ; perhaps, indeed, the existing Government had shown itself firm under circumstances of far greater tumult and aggression. Few persons, he be lieved, would wish to meet Parliament under such cir cumstances as those that must inevitably occur, if the course pursued by Noble Lords opposite were adopted—if, instead of doing something for the im mediate relief of the suffering manufacturers, they were •content to go into the consideration of the whole ques tion. He thought they might now look forward with confidence to another Session, when that great question could be calmly and deliberately discussed. If Ministers had nor, in the present exigency', come fairly before Parliament, and requested these additional powers—if they had, on their own responsibility, broken the law— that, indeed, would have afforded scme reason for not intrusting them with such powers if they were called for at some futne pet iod. The Noble Earl (Grey), in ad verting to the speech of his Noble Friend (Lord Liver pool), had asked whether more mischief would not be done by introducing these measures than it Government had stood sti'l, inasmuch as that which had been pro' .posed by Ministers would have the effect of prejudging, in a certain degree, the question of the Corn Laws. Now he would say, that nothing could possibly be more remote from the *lntention of Ministers than to prejudge those laws by anything they proposed at present. Wh ,, , be asked, had in reality prejudged the Corn Laws? In his opinion, the Noble Loads opposite—if they bad not actually prejudged those laws, they were at least more 'ready to do so than he and his Noble colleagues. The two principles on which the proposed measures were founded did not at all apply to a prejudication of the Corn .Laws. The first measure admitted into the market 100,000 quarters of bonded corn, at a duty of 12 shilling's, the price of corn being now 60s. and be certainly- - did not think it far to argue from thence that it wilt intended at all times to allow all bonded corn to go put when the market price here was 60s.— .But the Noble Earl opposite contended that those measures would produce no relief. Why, by the first measure, a certain relief, to the extent of 500,000 qrs. would. be given; and by the second, a relief, possibly, to the extent of 500,000 qrs. Now really, as this WWI the case, he couli not conce.ve how any one could pre tend to say that these measures would afford nn relief. Whether the relief which they would effect would be sufficient or not he could not say; but if the pressure grew more severe, recourse must be again had to Parliament. lie trusted their Lordships would, by the success of these measures, ensure to themselves this consola tion, that, even if the distress of the country increased (qf which there was not the least apprehension) they had done much towards the alleviation of that distress. The Earl of LAUDERDALE, after eulogizing the speech of his Noble Friend (Earl Grey), referred their Lordships to the King's Speech at the opening of the Session, and contended that the Government had acted most inconsistently in bringing forward these measures after such a Speech had been delivered to Parliament. There were then nine months of the consumption of the year to be . provided out of the last hzrvest, and now there were only three, the price being then six shillings more than it was at present. If there was not sufficient corn for the year's consumption, what were Ministers About in November last when there wete ten months to be provided for, and the price was ten shillings higher than n .w? He strongly objected to the measures, and not less to the manner in which they had been brought forward, and he maintained that they were net mea sures of relief. He was surprised to hear the doctrines which had fallen from the Noble Earl at the head of the Government, when he recollected the ingenious ar guments with which he supported the Corn Bill of 1815. The Noble Earl told them he did not mean these measures to interfere with tt,e Corn Laws. He did not care what his meaning was. (Hear, hear, hear.) — He cared not for the meaning when the effect upon every man in and out of the House, as they might see in every street of the metropolis, had barn to prejudge the great question of the Corn Laws to such an extent that it could not have an impartial heating for years to come. Formerly, in a period of agricultural distress, they had been told that the evils of the country arose from over production ; and now it had suddenly been discovered that we could not produce enough. The Noble Lord had stated, that even many agriculturists admitted that we must rely upon foreigners for a por tion of our supply. Where these agriculturists were to be found he knew not ; and combining these doctrines with the measures before their Lordships he thought he saw a just ground of alarm, and there he would_ , take his stand. He contended that the evidence taken in the inquiry of 1814, proved the capacity of this country and Ireland to produce enough for our wants upon ordinary occasions —(Hear, near). Since that time the importation from Ireland had very greatly increased, and her means of producing further supplies to almost any amount could not be doubted.— To talk of a system of free trade in cern was absurd. Even in the silk trade, where the principles of tree trade had been said to be applied, there was a protection et thirty per cent. ad Worms,. The Noble Lord then went into a statement of prices from the time of Charles H. downwards, contending that the periods when the trade in corn was most tree front restriction, were not those in which there bad been the least fluctuations, and con sequent distress to the manufacturing consumer. Rather than. very low prices, he would prefer a continuance of vary htgb prices; and he was sure they would be wore for the general advantage of. the country. The Noble Lord supported the latter position by :hewing the corn paratiye influence of high and low prices upon labour, and maintaining that experience nad proved its correct- ness. The manufacturers, he insisted, did not pay the tithe of the poor rates, and the burthen of the indemnity fell upon the Landed Interest. The discussions, to which the agitation of the measures led, were very much to be regretted; but they were not caused by those who opposed the measures, but rather by those who supported them. Noble Lords were not asreed as to what price ought to be fixed on. One said that 50s. was a fair price, while another conceived that 80s. was a famine price in this country. Such language, he thought, was more formidable than the measures themselves, from the apprehensions which it must necessarily produce. He called upon their Lordships to look to the extra supply from Leland, which was now increasing, and which he hoped for the benefit of that country would continue to increase. He did not wish to oppose the Noble Lord at the head of the Treasury ; he had no object in such opposition, and he was anxious that the Noble Lord should afford him an opportunity of s•.rpporting his measures. He had heard him in 1815 say thst the country was able to support itself, avid he now under• valued the quantity of grain which wai cal ed for. At first it was stated to be 500,000 quarters, afterwards it was raised to 500,000; but not only the grain warehoused, but that which was to be warehoused, was included in the measure. It was clear that they were claiming this extraordinary power at a time when they were ignorant of the grain which was to be let in under the Other Bill. Ile thought it wrong in the Noble Lord to take a qua- lified Indemnity Bill; for supposing the supply allowed to prove inadequate, they certainly could not so easily approach the subject a second time. The Earl of LIVERPOOL said, that the Bill would never have had any effect upon the Corn Laws in the estimation of persons out of doors, but from the oppo sition which it had met from their Lordships; and the same objections also originated the opposition iaised against it in the other House. The Noble Lord who last spoke, had st.sted the system which existed Lein* the year 1765. But it was since chat period up to the present that the great growth of the manulacturing interests, and the great increase of population had taken place in this country. It was not the fact, however, that very considerable fluctuations had not occurred in the price of grain prior to the year 1765. This would appear by references to a statement of prices, as they stood in the early part of the last century. In 1706, the price of wheat was 235. per quarter; in 1707, £st. in 1708, 365. in 1709, 695. 7c1.. Again, in 1740, the price was 48,. Iod. in 1741, 41s. 91 in 1742, 28s. and in 1743, 225. The Noble Lord bad charged in consistency upon him because of the language which he had used in 1815. It was true that he did sup port the Corn Bill of that year, because he thought it a just and useful Bill at that time, stud the circum stances of the period rendered it a necessary measure. He wished that Britain and Ireland could produte sof& cient corn for their own supply. Nothing could be more desirable; but it was quite clear, from the imports. dons, that they had not done so yet. In 1815 he had supported the measure which fixed the import price of grain at 80s. The Noble Lord had done so as well; and why, he would ask, had the Noble Lcrd fixed upon the price of 80s. ? In the preceding year, 1814, a Bill was brought in by a Member of the House of Coen. mons to settle the import price at 120 s. which Bill however was then thrown out. The Noble Lord and himself went on the principle that the agriculturist should be protected as they required. .At that iitne 80!. was considered a proper price for the purpose ; but neither the Noble Lord, nor his Noble Friend who argued on the same side, could :hew that that was a fit price now. Sixty-five shillings was at present a fair price. They both contended that the agriculturist should be protected up to a fair remunerative price.— It was plain that they agreed in principle, however they might differ in matters of detail. Protection was due to the manufacturing interests: but then the country must be secured against the possibility of a, failure of supply. The Noble Lord had also objected that the present was no measure of relief. In this he confounded two things which, in their nature, were completely distinct. He (the Earl of Liverpool) thought that the price was the cause of the distress; but when distress existed in the country, no matter from what cause, to say that en ar rangement for lowering the price of corn was not a mea sure of relief, was altogether unreasonable. When it was asked of what avail was a small price, when the poor, being destitute of means, could not purchase corn, however cheap ? the answer was, that by far the greatest number of the distressed were those who were employed at low wages—some at five, some at four, and some even at two shillings a week. To such persons and their families it was of the utmost importance that the price of provisions should be brought as nearly as pos sible within the reach of their means. When their Lordships retired to their beds, and reflected on the pos sibility of a bad harvest in the present year, could they contemplate any evil more terrific ? Could any man say that he looked ton bad harvest this year with only the same degree of apprehension now, which he would have felt upon the subject last July? The question was, how they were to meet this very bard case; and their Lordships were called upon to decide. The Noble Lod said that he would prefer the other mode of proceeding; but in that case if a power were to be exercised against law, it would be the duty of Mi nisters to advise his Majesty to call Parliament imme diately ; and for what purpose? Why, to deliberate upon an alteration in the Corn Laws. And could they conceive a moment more inauspicious for such a pur pose—more inconvenient fir the country? The whole %Bestial would then force Itself epos their considered= ; but the present Bills did net affect the general qosetloo at all; on the contrary they set It mere remote from investigation. The Earl of LIMERICK could not agree to the statement that the United Kingdom was moursoniens man, equal to its own sop ' port in the supply of grain. He was aware that at Dantsic sera I stood at sus. a quarter, which, with all other charges attending ite importation, would be brought up to no higher price than eon. Bet what would be the fate of our unfortunate farmers sad landlords, if anything like such a price should obtain in this country? Lord KfNO congratulated the Noble Earl at the head of the Treasury on the signal success which he had obtained over the great domestic enemy—(A lave. Everybody must have observed the reluctant support which had been given to the measures in a particular quarter; indeed, it was more like opposition than support: o Imam " Vinci, recusantum." Ministers had two modes of proceeding open to them. One was to act on their own responsibility, and the other to come to Parliament for a special authority. He was glad that Ministers had not pursued the former course, because then nothing would have been said: and speaking on the subject of the Corn Laws did good. Many people in that House were inimical to free trade —there were persons who were enemies to free air, and to free conscience— " Ravening wolves, whose conscience is their maw." - .