Star. — London, England, 1820-05-31 00:00:00

I ......- . -a rased the Bill. The opponents of the ntessove-that t reed that 80s. would be the snsitfienotn, *hilt be e mended that it would' form the maatroum, • If' the law lord, therefore, failed to produce a price. of to ..he farmers, It had only failed is that which never intended to produce—( Hear, hear).— 'fl:e chief effect which lte had expected front the Bill o hat Lv removing from farmers all - apprehension or a boundless importation of foreign corn, it would loot to a wise application of capital to agricultural eVocts, and would hive a tendency to lower rather than tie raise the price. That the law y did Rot pro dtze bOs. was therefore no ground for altering its orovisions. Ile held a statement of the quantity of forcien corn imported timing the last five years, by svliieh it appeared that the wheat imported during that period amottated to 3,483,675 quarters. From this woe to be deducted 324,546 grouters now in the warehouses, and 770,437 quarters which bad been re-esported, so that the quantity added to the con sumption of the country was 2,348,692-quarters, or 677,030 per annum. Yet, notwithstanding this ire rortation, the average price of corn during those very five years, and under the operation of a Bill wiOch was represented as having ruined agricuatere, a as 735. 10.1. In 1817 and 1518, immediately alter ua prod u cti v e harvest of 1816, 2,600,0G0 quarters foreign corn had been imported, and yet the are rave price of Briti h corn had remained as high as 495. 6d. This was, let it be remembered, during two veils when importation bad risen to its greatest licieto. Ile held also an account of the im poi is fratil 17a1i to 1812, and found that the ave rage was as nearly as possible, during seventeen of those years, five hundred thousand quarters an roially, with an average price of 78s. 6J. If that rice was then sullkient to place farmers in that situation in which all roust wish them to stand, to enable them to cultivate the land with spirit, and with advantage to the landlord and to themselves, he saw no re hot' to suppose that it might not have the same effect now. The House were told of the imiveisality of a ricultural distress; but how could it be ascribed to the Corn Laws? Nu foreign corn olottever had been introduced since February, 1819, about fifteen months ago; and at that period there was scarcely one quarter of foreign corn in private warehouses. Whatever might be the present price of corn, - it was, therefore, clear it could not be charged to the inefficiency of tha law. Was it a trifle that such applications should be constantly made to the House ?--(fleer, hear). He thought it was a mis fortune. He had never supported the Ccrn Bill as a positive good, but as a choice of evils. His Hon. Friend said, that the Petitioners did not ask for any s s )ecific remedies. He thought that had been intended ; but he felt much satisfaction at finding that the spe cific remedies recommended in -the manifestoes to virich he had alluded, had not been touched upon here —he meant that unwise and extravagant proposal of a permanent duty of 40s. a quarter upon wheat.— Such a duty might be tolerated in good years, but ia bad seasons it could not. It would then be im possible for Government to be tarried on with it. :lead supposing a less sum to be taken. it would not, oo.ver the purpose of the Agriculturists. Let 20s. for it:stance, be adopted (and a duty to that amount might, perhaps, be tolerated), yet with this addition, the price of foreign corn would .not exceed three pounds. Would this yield any protection so the far mer ? It would not. The plan was therefore, of all others, most calculated to produce the greatest pos sible mischief—(Hest, hear).—Much stress bad been hid on the question of Averages. On this subject be ti ought considerable delusion prevailed. It was pre tocded that if a mode of Average different from that' established by the law were adopted. the price of; W. would be produced.. With a view to see the effect of such an alteration, he had procured an Average of the twelve Maritime Counties - for the six looks ending on the 15th of May, 1820; and a simi lar Average for the same period, embracing every 2laritime Town and District. The average price stated in the Gazette for the week ending on the-Bth of April, and far the twelve Maritime Counties, was "Cs. 3d. By the other mode it would have been 71s. The price of rye was 425. 7d.—it would have been 41s. That of barley was 330 4d..--it would have been 335. id. That of oats was '2-k. Ild.—it would- Lave been 21s. The same result was found in five t.eeks out of the-six. Did not this prove that the Agriculturists would derive no advantage from the r toposed alter , ation ?—(Hear, hear).—What object could they have therefore in advocating what could ao them no good, and would only serve to put the whole country in a state of agitation ?—(Hear, hear). Bat it was said, leave nut the Welch Comities. Now 'elm would •be the effect of this omission ? The Welch Counties as - ere comprised in the Bth and 9th' - Maritime Counties, and Monmouthshire formed part' Hof the 1-oth. The Agriculturists were taught to be lieve that the insertion of the Welch Counties was an eala.-gement, and that their omission would lower the average. The fact was the reverse. 11 those Comi ties were omitted; they.would find that the average lake would be higher. The 'grounds on which they called for an Aeration was therefore one of the greatest delusions bywhicli millions of men-had ever heen deceived. He -did not mean to say that the present mode cf taking-the averages was perfect. It was, perhaps, a choice of evils ; but unless some great and decided advantage should be proved to be attain- able, was it worth while to agitate the whole coun try by introduction of such questions ? Admit tiug the modcokitlehog the average to be imperfect,- nogat and even to inimlve - some portion of i noothutifrand have been committed in favour of the Aricuirunillitterest ? It had been proved at a late trail at Liverpool, that the'Objeet rifahe aserson ac costa was not toratse, bet to Icaset atm price. Yerthe Agriculturists seemed to fancy that •all frauds must bedirestad against thorn. Thekkonourablollember who had 'introduced the treeton -supposed - that as great dedhof foie igo eoni loopocesesorolrgted to the, muetry. He (Z. Inbinsoa)didatothnoW how that rout,' L!, for he had received nt) inConssation• to that effect at the dare to . .whk-h he - belooged—(Heir). —He knew rfrat - muchatatm - trad Iset-trescited, test gt: it rporotittes uf looeign - corn.iliouLl have . been irn; post of float the . l.le-of.olan, dtesey,•atul Guernsey. a. the ?Induce of those Islands 4 bur beitratlespiced hen the surest, -enclitid fnutol that the sap positicro was tota!ly usi fou tided. Thet: ltadiaulays-been -some io.partaticro of corn from arose ishoWs, theeturouut o. a 2ey liondicd quarters per annum, and it was just sam- in former tiores— (Hear, hear). He had always been of opinion, that none of the alters'. dons proposed could be useful to the Agricultitrists, or agreeable to the country. At the same time, he did not mean to say, that there might not be some ground; for examining certain inflor'points. It might be proper, though he was not aware of any nece,sity, to see whether the law which regtilated the aivoirstment of Inspectors might not be improved ? That whirls appointments had been made he was aware.' In one of the Welch Counties, the Inspector was a Ladyl—(Laughter). But this could not be laid to the charge of the law. The law gave the right of appointing Inspectors to Magistrates: why, then, did not the latter select proper persons ? It was said that the salary was so small that but few individuals would accept of such an office.. But the law sot only ordered that the Inspector shoo Ll have five shillings for each Report which he should make to the County, but empowered the Magistrates, if that were not snthcient, to increase his allowance by a Count] Rate. This had not yet been done, and the law had, therefore, not had a fair trial. As to ware housing foreign coin in this country, that had been represented as a great evil, which kept the farmers in a constant state of alarm, lest they should be suddenly crushed by an overpowering inmtiation of grain.— Rut suppose the practice should not be allowed, what would be the effect? The effect would be to transfer that tremendous storm from one side of the Charnel. to the other—(llear, hear).—And, as ships deer, it would be conveyed as rapidly from the coast of Holland or France, as it,Avcsilti from that of Essex, to the port of London- 7 (licar, hear).— The only result would be, to prevent the employment of British capital in the erection of tvarehouses. Had his health allowed him, he should have entered more at length into the causes of the present dis tress; but, he trusted, that he had said enough to shew that he conceived its first cause to be the un natural state to eitich the country had been raised by the events of the last twenty-five years—(Herr). He ;lid not here speak merely of a change from war to peace—great and astonishing as it was: - Deflutt saris agitatus hutnor : .Ml:culunt veuti, fughtutque nubes, " Et minax quo' sic volu:re) pent* " Cunda recumbit!" —He should be indeed surprised if any argument could be adduced to prove that that unnatural state was not the primary and operative cause; and, if it was so, it was idle to suppose that any Legislative measures, any enactment of theirs, ci e uld raise the price of coin to a certain standard !—(Hear, Hear.). Lamenting, theiefore, as he sincerely did, that this subject bad been brought forward in such a manner, and by persons every way deserving the regard, and respect, and affection of that House, he must yet deeply regret that they should have been persuaded that something could be done, and would be done, for them, which it was impossible for the Houie le gally to do.—(Hear, Hear).—lf, however, any mea sure could be proposed, which would render the ex isting law less liable to abuse, he, for one, would give it his *support. But he really felt that he should abandon the duty which he owed to his country, to that House, and to the character of the office with which he was connected, if he did not protest against any c;iaage in a law which, vt bile it could extend no react to this class of the community in the present instance, was calculated to occasion much general in convenience and injury by being ynnecessarily al tared.—(Load cheeringfi.brn boat sides ?/' the House.) , Mr. 1% ESTERN. had the honour of representing a county which teat distress as little as any cther, and had moic r otter of resisting it, and yet even there agriculture vas declining. The Petitioners expected some measure cf a more protecting nature than the Bill of 1515. The object of that Bill had been less to seci:re a fair price to the farmer, than to reader the country independent of foreign states, by encou raging the growth of corn. h e Hon. Member then entered into extensive historical details, with the view of spewing that the Bill of 1815 gave less protection to farmers, than any of the former Acts on the same subject. He conteAdcd, that the country now felt the effects of the inundation of foreign corn which had taken placb in 1817. The state of agriculture was such, that the stock must diminish every day. Capi tal was wasted, and could not be restored, and with it he feared was gone the foundation of the wealth and prosperity of the country. Agricultural distress took the lead, and was the cause of all other distresses.— Wherever agriculture had been depressed, manufac tures had suffered, and the revival of the one had al ways followed that of the other. This had been par ticularly evinced by the use and fall of our woollen manufactures. The distress of the People never pro ceeded from the high price of corn ; on the contrary, as the price of torn decreased, their distress in creased. For the cheapness of corn was relative; and it was possible that cheap corn should be dear, and dear corn cheap to manufacturers. The misery arising from a want of labour was infinitely Ist eater than any that could be expel ienced from a partial ad vance on the price of corn. The great body of people were the purchasers of corn, and he therefore con tended that the price-could not rise very high, unless their means increased so as to enable them to buy at a high price. It was calcUlated that there were about five millions of persons in this country who were ,oc cupied as labourers. If the wages paid to these were idintini.ked by four shillings a week, the tctal sum. I withdrawn from them would, in the course of a year, amount to no less thin £52,000,000 per annum,. This, affecting the general circulation of the country, would again operate to the prejudice of our trade. and diminish the valtie of all the products of indus try, and thus occasion much moredistress than could be fek•tiom an advance on the .price of corn. Mr. BARINU wished to offer a felv observations on the present Motion, aud, in doing this, he should . endeavour to discuss the question with all that even ness of temper which the 'Honourable Member for Surrey (Mr. H. Smiler) brought into every debate! The Eientlemen opposed ,to the agitativa of this quo-, tion had a right to take credit to themselves for not hav in. done anything to clistorh the settlement made. in in 181 - '5. Though he oppoied that meaxre at the time, and had ever since continued to 'disapprove of it, so convinced was he of the impropriety ..ef dis turbing the public mind, or of bastay_departing.fram , a gzeitnsystinn,•when once Adopted, that he had . had no iirteution of saying anything about the Coin Laws. From the putt now tilken by 'those to whditi be yeas' 'apprised •vrn • this -qtlestion,..it touted tAlti ats • 1ie4704 1 predicted, that the Act of 1$31;) did not afford the ',••• COll.l- that protecdod width they. had ea . ' ire to deli* (turn . it,'and in fa . et - Ooly proveci tbs. haposiibiritr of frOls . tering up the 'vices of ii4ciesiaf 'necessary consumption by, means of legislation. SO serongly did he feel this, that if he thought it possible that a Committle could again come to.niselutions of ' that sort, he did not know. but Bektor one,,shoul4 be disposed . . to 'go into the Cbmitilffee now Mcived for. The lion. Member toe Essex, with that Manly can dour which belonged to his character, ha stated his f! object to be a higher protecting.. price: ' . without saying to what extent he wi s hed to pin t a ! 4 respect. He imputed all the existing, distress to the low price of corn ; but what. he (Mr. Baring) . 'could wish to know, would be the iituation of the lower classes,: if the plan of the Hon. Memberl'or Essex were carried into effect, and the price of bread advanced SO. 40s or 50 per cent.? The extent to which the Honour able Member (Mr. Western) would proceed, be did not know. We already paid for bread double the price paid by the rest of the world, brit that would not satisfy him. Would he, then, have the people of England pay three times the price that was paid by the inhabitants of other countries? Bat how, in that ease, would it be possible for our manufacturing classes to Tarry on their 'labour ? But some might say, " Let us have a high price for corn, and never mind theinanufacturing classes—let them shift for themselves as they can !" It was, however. certain 'that that which enabled this country to pay a high price for its bread, was the circumstance of our having these manufacturing classes among us; and setting aside the consideration, that having these interests, it was impossible to shake them off—without them the present prices could nof be kept up in a country merely' agricultural. It was hence clear, that all attempts to separate the two classes must prove useless : their in terests were hound up _together, and one could nut flourish when the other was severely distressed.— He then, from a comparison of the prices of corn, spewed that no alteration in the Corn L4WS was ne ' cessary from the present depressed state of the agri cultural interest. It was admitted that no foreign corn had been brought into this country for the last, eighteen months, and therefore if the protecting price had been 100 s. the corn-grower would only have been where he at present was. The price of corn could not be forced up, in the manner that the, Gentlemen connected with the landed interest sup posed to be practicable by the interference of Par liament—it must depend on the relative circum stances of the country. The farmer suffered from the distress of the manufacturer, and the manufac turer suffeted from the ,distress of the farmer. But the Hon. hlembet for Essex made it appear that it was all on one side—that, because the farmer could not consume, the' manufacturer suffered ; but he, (Mr. Baring) would maintain, that because the ma nufacturer could not consume, the farmer suffered. —lt had been proved, that in one manufacturing district, the number of beasts slaughtered in one year had been reduced from .58,000 to 46,000. This proved that the people there (as in Ireland) were too poor to purchase the higher classes of agricul.; tural produce. The present protecting price, he was of opinion, ought not to be augmented. Every clasi had seen its profits diminished, and the present effort on the part of the landed proprietors seemed to him but an effort to exempt themselves from the com mon. lot of every other class in society. They would find tiremselves mistaken. If Parliament were to give them a hundred shillings as a Frroteeting price, the landlords would not be able to keep up their rents as they teem during the war. The only effect of an effort to accomplish this would be, to bring down the rents lower than they would otherways fall. Much stress had been laid, and in discussions like the present always had been laid, on the great burdens imposed by taxation on the landed interest. It would be found, by referring to the evidence given before the Committee on the Corn Laws, that the burdens imposed by Government on Agriculture were of little moment. With the exception of the tax on agricultural horses (which was very small), the bur dens which they had to sustain were trifling—(Hear). But when it was asset ted that they could not enter 'into competition with countries which were not so oppressed by taxation, they forgot that in every other country in &trope the land itself was heavily taxed. This must be the case in poor and in agricultural countries, where the whole of the revenue must be derived from land. The Petitions which covered the table he did not think entitled to much attention. 'They resembled those which had been presented some years ago on the subject of Universal Suffrage, and they had been got up in the same way. He thought the Agricultural classes suffered less than others. He did not mean to say that they did not suffer conside rably, but he conscientiously believed that they had less cause for complaintthan most of the other classes of the community. For the.evils of which they com plained they must seek a remedy" which could not be afforded to them by legislation and new laws—they. must - seek it in a recloction.of their rents. The depres sion be did not think was so great as had been gene rally supposed. At least he should be led to this con clusion from his own small experience in that way. He bad recently let considerable farms for the same rents, as formerly, without even a claim being made on the part of the farmers for a diminution of rent.— The table, it was true, was now loaded with Petitions . from :he Agricultural Interest, but when these were removed, it would immediately be covered with Pe titions of an opposite character, if there were any pro ability of the grayer of,those now before.them•being attended to. kor these, however, he trusted there would be no occasion, as he doubted not the manner in which the present Petitions were received, would' satisfy the country that there existed no serious.in- . tension of altering the Corn Laws. With respect to• the. averages, if there had-been any abuse, they :abuse ought certainly •to be done away. Thd parties complaining of this had the remedy lit their own hands, and a remonstrance to the Magis trates would probably do away mith the nikessity et .1, 'calling for the interference offarliament. He.cobt eluded by. repeating his declaration that be had no iii-, teption of roopting any question connected with ti* Corn Laws, a rid expressing the iimportance he attathest to steady perseverance in any system once adopted. Mr, I-% 1.11, 'IS .said, the . far mers; under 'the pre seat system, were so agitated by rumours of the open ing and shutting of ports, and by statements:that the overagestiwbeir all-kisese.iuseas . no-easy triskito takq properly', were -iitnitiOpertt .tatea4 that • he' di'd • tint' think they could bc tranquillised without some in- - • N;:g L 5 4. -....c0ce. Mt tbe part.of parliament, and therefore :be,:foe one. waadesirous of going. into some itnquisy I sm the subject.. That the opinions of the farmers were erxencous,.he did not think it y:ould be- difTwolt i ;to make clearly appear. He proceecled to remark, ;that most of the Petitions now before them came from the occupiers, and not from the.ownels of land; atml then sliewed that those classes had distinst ie. tetests, and that the benefit now claimed by the 0c... cupiers would inevitably be takenfrom them lry.ahe 'owners when the present leases expired. Ti 'pro . tection now afforded by the importation •• .:luthlt Ti fixed at 806. lie regarded as very iticonvki. ~, fse *was Inclined to think, that a duty of even less than 20s. might answer much bettor. Sor..e inquit y would, in his opinion, be desirable, as the country was now :in a situation wholly diffcreu fronuthat ie which it stoodia 1815. The expense ofAktltivating Lind On. eluding . , rent) bad diminish .; ..,.'eat*Wis that period :i :not less thin one-third, and there:4,4e protectien ~.Which it was iiiilit to afford them might - not he ne .cessary now, and he could not but perseadelkimself . that the time was not far distant when it would necessary' for them, in some cldgege„ - ..-42. retreat their steps, . and wen it would lie_ t wise to take this question into coasideraaion", • a . view .of gradually undoing what hart leettn It was the general view of the col that the present protection operated :Is a tax iaconstimahle article. .The difference betwee at . ielis lila for bread, and what would ba paid le4C-ionA:44st MI 'had passed. opetatek4 as a tax, on the people;lbut its produce wen: noti.tex the Government—not to rhe tenants—but to the •landlords of England. This must, therefore, be regarded as a tax of the worst description, imposed to enrich a particular class of individuals. The shale of it which he, as a landed "propriaor received, he would willingly give up, and by so doing he was. satisfied that he shonld be a gainer, trorn the change which would then take.place in the whoole face of society. Ile thought i,:quiry desirable and necessary, but at the san e time did ret . feel himself bound to vote in favour of the pattieular in( ..$ 'q .ry rnea now _lan ..uapteuit,. _ .:ircum stances of the country; that he could not give it his support. ‘Vith the views of the Right Honourable Gentleman opposite, with everything that he had ex pressed on the subject respecting the averages and the price of Corn, he thou: , ,ilt it impossible not to . concur; and he had therefore been a little sur p r i se d, at the end of his speech, to learn that the. Right Ho. nourable Gentleman might, by po s sibility, support the motion—("t N o,nc !" front the 21:i ni.ilcrial side . l 4 .--. 'He had understood, that the Right lionotrrable Gen tleman was disposed to consent to the inquiry, if li. mired in a particular way. This limitation was pie cisely that to which he (Lord Milton) could not agree. The Noble Lord opposed the Motion, on the around that it would only excite the expec: ation of every far mer in England, and dash the cup from his lips. The real history of the distress in the country arose out 9f the unnatural state of things for the last 25 years.-- It had been the peculiar distinction of the late war : ,that we had not only exfeuded an immense capital n hich had produced no beneficial effect, because the. weight of taxation had pressed heavily on all classes of the community—(Loyd cries of bear, befirl.— If the resources of the country were not increased, the country would not long be able to bear the load. of taration. The Noble Lord was not sanguine enough tcr believe the load of debt could be removed. "to any great extent, and it would be a delusion to impress on the People that the distresses could be alleviated suddenly. The House ought to turn their minds to inquiry upon a large and more ezten4ed view than that proposed by the Hon. Member for Surrey. It would appear that Parlianient was blind to the interests of the country, if they limited inqbiry in the form proposed. He telt regret in not being able to vote far a motion on the subject, because he believed that inquiry, upon a large scale, might have been attended with a good result. ' No good could possibly arise from limited and petty inquiry. .. - Mr. CURWEN said, the speech of the- Biel 'Honourable Gentlemen on the opposite -side of the House made a deep impression on him.' The Corn, Laws were most essential at the time they ;Were adopted, but when the Right Honourable Member at the head of the Board of Trade stated that there. was not corn to support' the country, it was in his opinion one of the most serious assertions ever rnaee in that House. lie found a difficulty in giving his vote for any inquiry that would lead to increase the price of grain and decrease the coin of the country. .. The great difficulty under which the country labour ed, arose from the unproductive state of labour. The • diminution of income, occasioned try the.falling off - in the pi icp of labour, amounted to six millions annually. Great difficulty had fallen on the Landed /otetest, which required the attention of the House. The coot.. mous extent of the Poorlrates, and the increase ofTstses, Occasioned a heavier pressure than ai any.period dori IT the war. Mr. Curwen considered the Landed Intecesc as suffering more severely than the Funded loterest,r- He would have gone into a Committee stish•two. ob jects: First,.to relieve the Poor Bates, -and equalize the taxes With respect to funded.property. Th.e.po licy of this country had been mistaken. It senntao lay taxes on labour, and when labour csceeded.slie. demand, the tax, fell on the landholder. Ph-ct mu .. lions wear paid in Lazes out of -tabour. .Could: - thing be more absurd than to tax those who io eeDee. quence of snch.tax were driven to .the palish?. file was an advocate.for a modified PiePt 7 4, ;put. .. The taxes ought to fall equally on every. p4( . 4 pr -the com munity.. A Committee might, •he :appointed to in quire into-the distresses of oe c o g utyy„t rg i o should be upon a-bread ..ef6ciePt system. 1 4 .1 cluiri Q4194 4 ° be for the benefit oftbe woricius,cl i vse s ...4f 4 4l4 4 ' , , en Leather and Salt were rgusmred, it *maid ease ;he. (atLers of foer,Milliotin,jand,,,nAble-tiiitm Sofa' goin 1 efshc 41illi* in•ti.t g swarter. .14e .wisleyi t4e sysci.. virns . 1 0 be qghty 'lliags. Ale ~could net v . uteior tbe motion. . . . .Mr.,ItIC44IDP *id, be,441 : - - parr* to sispport.. the intcrev.a(gle ,a,pd.lar,Pplc,koNaltiqr, ~lout. the; a. of 0.e.-PctualifY at tango. 4111.4 1 5401tP iiiia u siow of flit 6Lecr. AG. 3. 5 • I ?A?Rfid .4 1 :8 1 119 4 /4fk 1 litteatat /.4ws. ' : If tbe,y,wolllW , .4091 the: •. SW . wept _of grftin woula 'be - the same in ngland as in othie countries, and that would he a remunerating priec— pro Slll fou, iq.oiry called for by the present motion. j , Lord . N was in hopes that tife yitAtfil 49 - ropo:itt.w .'s,orrowed. sett i Onedial me ires that Le 4 ! :1vi1ka , 4461"64441; but he nc )und the proposition of the Honourable Gentlem. 'as so confined, and so little adapted, to the circa: . .* ~:~ ,:~,. el• .. Ali • /.