Star. — London, England, 1827-03-02 00:00:00

Hoo. Geith. congratulated the House and the country on • ng state of trade and manufactures, at this moment flourish ing of universal happiness and content the price of „ m 6 35. Now, on the other hand, when wheat :, I, ;, o :iy a at s 535. univ ersal distress prevailed. In every ounce sioce 1925, it woul,t be found, that as csre fl o urished, trade and manufactures flourished also, sa d that when the one decayed the others decayed with i t He fully agreed therefore i n the observation of t he eight Hon. Gentleman, that no case could be produced when one had decayed and the other flourished. He was convinced that any measure effecting a reduction Ir on the present prices would be the ruin of thou saod, upon thousands of farmers. He knew that p a ws were at the present moment an impoverished class, and that the system of tillage now going on was not we llcalculated to promote production as the system in oc a few years ago. These were considerations which ti ght to make them cautious how they tried experiments. B y an unsuccessful experiment they might reduce thou pads of farmers to ruin, and greatly increase the present distress of the manufacturing classes. With ibex views he had felt disposed to deprecate any expe• rinient whatever; but, as the propositions of Govern ment appeared in a considerable degree to conciliate the favour of the House, he felt that it would be but justice to the Right Hon. Gentleman to refrain from pronouncing a decided opinion in opposition to them till he had given them a more ample consideration. Mr. FERGUSSON thought that the interests of the Agriculturists whom he represented, would be pro moted by the proposed change of system. The prin ciple now about to be introduced, was infinitely pre ferable to that of prohibition up to 80s. and unlimiteli competition above that price, to the system which turned only upon one pivot. In the details of the plan he apprehended that some amendments would be found nes cessary. The prices and duties fixed for oats and barley were too low in proportion to wheat. If the measure were carried into effect, taking as it did the proper remunerating price of oats to be one-third that of wheat, much land in Scotland would be driven out of cul tivation. He hoped the question would not be hurried, so as to deprive Scotland or any part of the country of the opportunity of being heard. He agreed in the principle of the measure, but he thought that oats ought to be calculated in the proportion to wheat, at a half instead of one-third, and barley at two-thirds instead of a half. If he understood the Resolutions correctly, whenever oats reached 28s. per quarter, they might he imported duty free from every part of the world. The price taken as the average for oats was 21s. being no more than one third of that taken for wheat. If this proportion was adhered to, the measure would accom plish the perfect ruin of a large class of agriculturists. Sir JOHN NEWPORT expressed his approbation of the principle of the measure, but thought with the Hon. Gentleman who tad last spoken, that the relative pro. porti as of the different sorts of grain were enormous, and that oats ought to be rated higher. He objected+ to the importation of flour on account of the injury it would produce to the millers of Ireland, and because the duty being the same upon all descriptions of flour, the finer kinds only would be imported, by which benefit would accrue to the rich, and not to the poor. He trusted that this would be attended to when the Bill was before the House, and the opportunity arose of discussing its provisions in detail. Mr. BANKES would ask the Right Hon. Gentleman what effect he anticipated upon the price of Corn from his plan if it should be carried ? Did he think the pre sent price too high at 535. per quarter ? Mr. Secretary CANNING said, that as it was a mat ter of opinion it might be presumptuous in him to answer the first question. With respect to the second, an answer to it might be inferred from what he had already said. He had taken 60i. as the medium from which the oscillation of price was to proceed, and this certainly did not indicate that they thought the present price of 535. too much--(Hear). Sir JOHN WROTTESLEY wished to ask if the system of bonding was to be persevered in? He op posed the principle of the plan, but agreed with the Hon. Member for the Stewartry of Kircudbright, that the relative proportion of Barley to Wheat ought to be taken at two-thirds. He beleved that very cogent reasons night be adduced against the argument of the Hon. Baronet in favour of srohibiting the importation of flour. Mr. GRANT replied that the Bonding System would not be at all altered by the Resolutions. The assertion of his Right Hon. Friend as to the extreme fluctuations since 1815 had been disputed; he would, therefore, take the opportunity of stating, from the returns he held in his hand, the price at two different periods since that time. In June 1817, the price of Wheat was 112 r. 7d. In October 1822, the price was 38s. Id.— with respect to the ins ortation of Flour into Ireland, if it was now admissible it would continue so. if inadmissi ble, it would remain the same. Sir J. NEWPORT had been informed that an al teration in this respect had been unintentionally effected by one of the clauses of a recent Statute. Such an occurrence ought to make them extremely cautious in their proceedings. Mr.W. WHITMORE approved of the measures pro posed by the Right Hon. Secretary, but he was of opi nion that the country would not be so well satisfied with the proposals which were made to-night as it ought to be, considering that those suggestions had proceeded from the Right Hon. Gentleman. The Hon. Member was proceeding to state his objections in detail to the scale of duties proposed by the Right Hon. Secretary, when he was interrupted by loud and repeated coughing. Having waited until the noise subsided, he observed, that if he had come down to the House for the purpose of proposing a counter resolution, he should not have been so much surprised at the in terruption he experierced ; but as that was not the case, and as he merely expressed, or was about to express, a very limited opinion, he owned he felt at a loss to ac count for the interruption. He conceived that the evils of the present system would not be alleviated by the new measure (renewed coughing); considerable flue tuations in agricultural produce would be one of its re sults, and he was convinced that in the end it would prove extremely detrimental to the country. He would not at present, however, go into any details respecting the propositions of the Right Honourable Uentleman, but he hoped that when those propo sitions came to be considered, that the House would not attempt to stifle the opinions of those Members who might colisider it their duty to give a free opinion on the subject, boa eier t!)at opinion might be opposed to the senuments of those who thought proper to intel laPt—(Hear, h ear ). S'r EDWARD KNATCHBULL said, that the ques tion at issue as this—vi hither the system of prutsibi tiun should be extended or not? From the best judg attic he could loom of the subject, he owned he should 'rather give his vote in favour of protection thee support' the plan which was this night proposed. At the same time, be must own that it was worthy of consideration. The Right Honourable Gentleman h9:l made use of an observation in his speech to-night which had filled him with surprise and disgust. He had'said that the balance of price would be in favour of free trade. (.I No, no,"from Mr. Canning.) He was certain that the Right Hon. Gent. said that the balance of principle would be in favour of free trade, and the balance of price in favour of agriculture. If, however, the princi ples of the proposed Bill tended to abrogate the corn laws—and he was well assured that it would be the first step to the attainment of that object—he cautioned the House how it proceeded to legislate on such a dangerous measure—(Hear, hear). Mr. Secretary CANNING said, that the Honourable Baronet had mistaken his meaning. He was partly right, and partly wrong. He (Mr. Canning) said, that the balance of principle would be in favour of trade, not free trade—(Hear). Lord ALTHORP thought the proposed system a great improvement. As the Representative of an agri cultural county, and bound to protect the interests of agriculture, so long as it did not militate against the general welfare, he rejoiced that an alteration was about to take place, calculated, as it appeared to him, to im prove the situation of thelultivator of land. The plan now proposed would put an end to the necessity of speculating and watching the averages; and it would afford a much better protection than the present law, because if it produced a price somewhat lower upon the average, that price would be a great deal more steady. He would aot now advert to the price at which foreign corn ought to be admitted, but he saw no reason to doubt that the proposed duties would be sufficient. Alderman THOMPSON fully agreed in the proposed resolutions, although be thought that the price fixed for wheat was too high. Sir T. LETHBRIDGE wished to say three or four words on the motion before the Committee. Having heard the propositions of his Majesty's Ministers, he found them not so alarming ; they did not present themselves in so questionable a shape as he had appre hended—(Heat). After all the dire anticipations, and the agitating fears, from which the reports they bad heard afforded ample ground, it was a consolation to him to be able to say, that although he did not approve of the plan altogether, yet it was much better than he had expected. He differed from the Honourable Alderman, who thought the scale of duties too high; he thought it too low, and fur this reason, that, as it was an experi ment, he, who always had been, and always should be, an advocate for agricultural interest, would have the experiment made, if it was to be made, with the least possible hazard to that important interest. He would give the subject the fullest consideration, but he feared he should be compelled to vote against the principle of the measure. He begged to ask, if the averages were to be taken weekly? Mr. Secretary CANNING replied, that weekly aver ages were now taken, but importation was governed by an average of averages. His proposition was, that the weekly averages simply should determine the duty. _ _ _ Sir J. SEBEIGHT said, that he had devoted much of his time for many years to the consideration of the Coin Laws; and he now gave it as his opinion that the present propositiou was better calculated than any which had preceded it for the purposes it was intended to accomplish. He would not discuss at present the details of this measure, but would content himself with ;lying his hearty concurrence to the principle on which it was founded. Mr. CURWEN asked, whether the improvement in taking the averages was to be extended to Ireland ? Mr. Secretary CANNING said, that there was no intention of altering the present mode of taking the averages, but there was an intention of so regulating the striking of them as to prevent the frauds which, it was well known, were at present practised under them. He had no intention of getting rid of the system en tirely, as it answered the purpose of obtaining an ap proximation to the real price of corn throughout the country. He thought that the evils of the present sys tem would be diminished by shortening the period in which the averages were struck. Mr. Alderman WOOD observed, that as the Hon. [ Member for Somersetshire expressed himself almost sa itisfied with the proposition then before the Committee, it behoved the Members for populous cities to view it with something like a feeling of alarm—(Hear, hear). Mr. PORTMAN implored the House not to come to a hasty conclusion upon this most important of all im portant subjects. His object in rising at present was to implore the Members of the Committee to make up their minds to one point—that protection to agricul ture was absolutely necessary to the well-being of the country.—(Hear, hear, hear.)—He would not then pretend to decide, whether protection to that in terest could be best obtained by the existing system, or by that which it was now proposed to substitute in lieu of it? He would confess that he was one of those who preferred protection to prohibition. But there might be facts connected with Corn, which rendered it im possible to concede to the country, that which he would not be unwillingly, individually, to concede to it. He was convinced that unless the Committee granted a protection to Agriculture up to 60s. a quarter, no Wheat could be grown so as to remunerate the grower in the county which he had the honour to represent (Dorsetshire). He was afraid that a duty of 20s. would hardly be found sufficient for the protection of the Agriculturists. If it were not, the importation of foreign Corn would tend to throw the poor lands of the coun try out of cultivation; and if they were thrown out of cultivation, the labourers must be thrown upon the poor rates; and such an occurrence could not fail to lead to a very lamentable catastrophe. He would now beg leave to ask a question, which he considered to be very material, and that was, whether the quarter of Wheat was to be reckoned by the Winchester or the Imperial measure? Mr. Secretary CANNING replied, that the quarter was now reckoned by the Winchester measure, and no alteration was intended in that respect. Colonel WOOD said, that as some Gentlemen had stated the scale of duties to be too high, whilst others contended that it was too low, it might perchance turn 'out that Ministers had acted very wisely in filing on a medium between the two parties. He must say, that it appeared to him, that if agi iculture was to be sup ported by protection, and not by prohibition, the scale if prices was too low. He implored the Committee to recollect that the farmers were at present in a very critical situation ; and that if it now took a wrong rcp, it might create such a depression in every specie• of agiii.ultaral produce, as would be productive of the greatest distress. He believed that the safest mode of proceeding was by prohibition, and not by protection. Mr. Alderman ATKINS spoke a few words in op position to the resolutions, which he thought only fa vourable to the interests of the foreign grower. Lord MILTON rose to express his approbation of the measure which was then under the consideration of the Committee. Without saying whether the proposi tion was perfect in its present shape, or whether it could not be made more perfect by some future modifications, it did appear to him to be an improvement on the present state of the law; and that if there was one class more than another to whoat it was likely to be advantageous, it was that class which was engaged in agriculture. The present system of alternation be tween high and low prices, injurious as it was to the other classes of his Majesty's subjects, was absolutely destruc tive to the agricultural interest. He could not sit dodo without expressing a hope that, whatever threats might be thrown out by those who were dissatisfied with the proposition, the Right Hon. Mover of it would persist steadily in support of it, and would not allow himself Ito be diverted from a course of c on d uc t which, Whether it i was the wisest, or not, that could be adopted, was still such as to entitle him to the gratitude of his country. Mr. BROUGHAM said, that in rising to address the Committee on the present occasion, be had no intention to anticipate the full debate, which he allowed would come on more appropriately at another season. He trusted, however, that the debate would come on at such a period as would enable those who were obliged to leave town for the Assizes to take a part in it. Though the time of holding the Assizes was near at hand, yet, as the subject did not come for the first time under the consideration of Parliament, as the minds of men had been drawn to it in almost all possible shapes which it could assume; and as the measure itself, in so far as its principle was concerned, had been known to them all for some time past, he trusted that the delay of a week would not be deemed inadequate to the consideration of the proposition in its details. Thpugh he had undoubtedly formed an opinion upon the point, be would not say at present whether he ap proved or disapproved of the proposition then before the Committee. He would, however, throw out one idea at present for the consolation of those Gentlemen of the landed interest, who were too prone to take alarm at the proposed innovation. They appeared to think that it proceeded on the principle of protection, which they in their wisdom deemed the safer and more expedient prin ciple. Now he considered the measure to be a prohibition with a protection. It was in vain to say that practically speaking it did not begin at the lower end of the scale with a prohibition, for it there was a price within which wheat could not be imported at a profit, and it was clear that, coupled with charges for insurance, freight, port dues in this country, and other incidental expenses, there might be such a price, there was an absolute prohibition of importation, when wheat was at that price ; so that a measure which in form gave a protecting duty might practically prove a prohibition. If when wheat was at such a price, a man imported it without paying the duty, he rendered himself liable to a fine in the Exche quer; and if he imported it, paying the duty, he would be a loser by bringing it to the English market. He would illustrate what he meant by an example. Let the price of corn in England be 555. per quarter, the duty on corn imported would then be We. so that the price of cora bought in the Baltic for 25e. per quar ter, and subsequently brought to England, would be 555. independent of the cost of freight, insurance, Bcc. which would be a dead loss to the importer. Would not then the importation of corn from the Baltic be virtually prohibited whenever the price Of corn was 555. in the market? He would also give another topic of consolation to the Gentlemen of the landed interest ; and when he spoke of the landed interest, he did not intend to speak of it invidiously. He had always deprecated as absurd and mischievous, the' practice of speaking of the landed and commercial interests as opposed to one another. He held by the doctrine of an able individual, who in the last century had commenced his career in trade, and by his successful enterprise in it, bad made himself a great landholder, he meant Sir Josiah Child—that " land and trade go together—that they wax and weigh toge ther, so that it never is well with trade while land suf fers, nor well with land while trade suffers." But to re turn to the point from which he had digressed. The landed Gentlemen admitted that 555. a quarter in the English market was a prohibition upon importation from foreign countries; but they were not satisfied with it, and wanted more. Now, he would remind them of one fact, which ought to render them satisfied with the present proposition: 255. was the price at which wheat could now be purchased in the Baltic; but sup posing the English market to be opened, and the addi tional demand of the English market to be thrown into the foreign market, then, instead of purchasing wheat at 255. and then importing it under a duty of 30s. into the English market, it would be purchased at 30s. and 355. a quarter, and most be imported at that price, under the same duty as before, for the duty was to be imposed not with regard to the price paid for it abroad, but with re gard to the price at which it was selling at home. The corn thus imported would diminish the average at home, and by so doing would increase the protection to the home grower, by raising the price at which foreign grain was to be imported. He did not rejoice in the alarm felt by the agricultural classes ; and be had, therefore, risen for the purpose of giving them the means of relieving it. Sir F. BURDETT said, he was sorry that this very important question, by which the public mind had been se much agitated, had been so long deferred. He did not on this occasion mean to trepass for many minutes on the attention of the House; but, at the same time, be felt that he would not acquit himself to his constituents, and to the public generally, if he did not state his opinion with respect to the principle on which the reso lutions now introduced were founded, and which would be discussed more at large on a future occasion. His opinion was not completely in unison with that of any Gentleman who had delivered his sentiments on the subject; because his views extended perhaps farther than' theirs. He, however, coincided entirely in almost the whole of what had fallen from the Noble Lord below him (Lord Althorp). He (Sir F. Burdett) was a decided advocate of free trade, in every respect (hear)--althotigh, in making that declaration. he knew that he must en counter those prejudices which the Right Hon. Gent. op posite had described as scarcely susceptible of being rooted out of some minds. He was one of those persons who did not think that a free trade in corn would have t',e baneful effects which were attributed to it. Although the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite doubted whether any writer wculd be produced to sanction such a pro position, he believed that he could quote more than one favourable authority on the subject. The clues. tion was not, in his mind, an exclusive one. It con cerned tl.c entire interests of the country—the MUM factoring as well as the landed or agricultural id. terest ; and, in his opinion, the whole wisdom of the case was combined in the few words quoted by hit Learned Friend below him (Mr. Brougham), from the work of Sir Josiah Child, who hid been a great commercial character in this country. He did not mean now to go into the general subject ; he merely meant to give an idea of what his individual view was; haw he would meet the present proposition ; and how, when the matter came more tangibly before the House, he would endeavour to discuss it. While he paid due respect to the liberality which had characterised the plan of the Right Honourable Gentleman opposite, and while he fully admitted the acute intelligence of mind with which he brought forward his pro. positions, still it appeared to him that he must go to much greater lengths; although, even then, he might not go to the extreme point, which he (Sir F. Burdett) was ready to advocate, whenever the proper occasion artived. He gave great credit to the Right Hon. Gentleman for introducing so liberal a modiftea tion of the law, but he did not think it went far enough. He conceived that a more extended system was neces• sary for the interests of all, and more particularly for the agricultural and landed interest of the country, in the welfare of which he must naturally feel a very great cencern.--(Hear.)—He was not standing up to make a sacrifice of one great interest for the benefit of any other, and he would plainly say, that if the landed interest and the manufacturing Interest were really opposed to each other, he would do his duty like the Hon. Baronet below him (Sir T. Lethbridge), in sup. port of that interest with which he was most nearly connected. He would, in such a case, boldly and manfully maintain his opinions, as the Hom Baronet had done; but be certainly did not view this question as a struggle between these two interests. H: trusted that this discussion would be earl ied on, as it bad begun, without any feeling of acrimony; convinced as lc was, that the two interests were inseparable, and that it was quite impossible for the one to flourish while the other was decaying—(Hear). Of this he was perfectly convinced, that neither commerce nor manufactures could succeed, while the landed interest was in a state of depression.—(Hear, hear.) Whenever the subject came regularly forward, he should be ready to maintain those doctrines—doctrines, the exposition of which appeared to him to be of very great importance. It did appear to him that a mistaken feeling had gone abroad on this soh jest—that a mistake had been made as to the e • use of the distress which prevailed—and that, therefore, those measures had not been taken which might have been adopted for the benefit of the country. It seemed to him, indeed, to be quite extraordinary, that during the whole course of this discussion, the price of corn had been solely dwelt upon, while that which altered and affected the ptice of corn—namely, the state of the currency— had not been adverted to—(Hear).—Every Gentlem a n had enlarged on the price of corn as the great sourceof dissatisfaction ; but no one had touched on the other question. He hoped, however, that on a future occa. sion they would examine the state of the currency, which was, in fact, the root of all the evils under which the country laboured—(Hear). The House then resumed, the CHAIRMAN reported progress, and asked leave to sit again on Friday week. The other Orders of the Day were then disposed 06 and the House adjourned at Tax o'Ccoce. BUSINESS IN THE HOUSE OF COMMONS, -- ran MY. _ Nome ow Moto .—General Gaecorstx; Select Committee es inguire into the present state of the Shipping and Commerce pi Great Britain, lu consequence of the relaxation of the Old Nail. ption Law.. PARLIAMENTARY PAPERS. EMIGRATION. WO= 711011 TIE SZLZC? ox zigiounos, 1127. The Select Committee appointed to consider the subject of mt. I gration from the United Kingdom, and to whom the Report of the last Session, and the several Petitions which have been pre. T ented to the House in the present Session of Parliament on the I same Subject, were referred, and who were empowered to report their observations and opinion thereupon, from time to time, to the I House, have, pursuant to the order of the House, considered the matters to them referred, and have agreed upon the following to poet, and come to a resolution thereupon— Your Committee, in the prosecution of their inquiries, having ascertained from evidence that a considerable portbin of the Is. bouring population entertain the expectation that they shall I* transferred to, and located in, the British American colonies, au elusively at the public expense, and being desirous to remove such misapprehension at the earliest period, have adopted the follow. ing resolution : " Resolved,—That this Committee is not prepared to recede from the principle which is distinctly laid down in the Report of the Committee on Emigration in 1826, that private or local contd. !station, in some shape, ought to form the basis of any system of emigration to which it may be expedient for this Committee to recommend any assistance from the national funds."—February 1 88, 1827. GENERAL PENITENTIARY, MILLBANK. Report of the Committee of the General Penitentiary at hlillbank, for the reception of Convicts; made in pursuance of the 59 t h Geo. c. 156. a. 16—spec ifying the treatment and condition of the prbonera—Feb. 1827. The number of prisoners confined in the Penitentiary at the gist of December last, was 423 males, and 101 l females. But the num. bee now within the walls is 452 males and 105 females. The for mer are distributed through the four Pentagons belonging to male prisoners, but the latter are all contained in one of the two Pinta, goes allotted for the reception of females, the other of those Pasta. gone being yet unoccupied. The fact of there being nothing injurious to the human constito. Lion, either in the site of the building, or in the discipline or mode oflife to which the prisoners confined in it are subjected, is further confirmed since the last Report of the Committee in March last, by the good health which has constantly prevailed in the prison during that period. The number of those who died in 1826 is 15; of whom eleven were males and four females ; but several of these died of disorders under which they laboured when they came into the prison ; and It may be said with truth, that the health of the prisoners, taken as a body, is better now than when they came into the Penitentiary. The prison not having been re-opened for the reception of pri soners till the 9th of August, 1824, no recommendation for the Royal mercy having since taken place on the part of the Com mittee, with the exception of that of a prisoner who bad assisted in repelling an outrageous assault made by one of his fellow-pri- Goners on one of the officers of the prison, and who received his Majesty's pardon on that account, as soon as it could be ascertained that employment would be provided for him by his friends. No other male prisoner has left the prison; but one female pri mmer has peen pardoned, owing to circumstances connected bee original conviction. Her conduct had bees uniformly good , while she remained in the prison. The conduct and behaviour of the respective officers during the period to which this Report applies, has been satisfactory; and that of the prisoners in general orderly; and the Committee hate great reason to he satisfied with their readiness to receive instruc. don, and with their improvement in religious knowledge, as will as with the progress made by them in reading and writing; but there megaton them some profligate and turbeirat c►aracters, for , t t i ! , li 1 1 I ' 1 1 ' , ,1 . i i„i 1 I' , . I . . .. i 1 1 ' l' . . .1 . ', ..., i i . 1. ; . p i 1 i • t i l I i 1 i I i 1 t 1 1 ~ I ) . •