Star. — London, England, 1812-03-20 00:00:00

1 id =3' -, q it be IP ley us the tti clic- his eat ated ;ter maa t his Bac Ater. If.-- er of trOIS • .- t 104 ~t the peoch 7:044401 - z le ..reico l ittacleci for War pith France during:tnit..tterieirdil, the ottTer for peace. when that revolution ce a se chief gfound of political difference was reinovich . ,idld the union U r , Fax and Lordtrenvale waif-retce. effected. But at, ehes . resent.awfuloYted tekiefinol; t he distresses of which, be thared,"telotild'vsey rapitlly • - l e eat's— _ _ present Govern, • s e), is was proposed to Tam . an. t union:ln the not cetera the affairs of the State With success ? cab i net e t' periods ip almost • Ifsce then ampliegrisends were affcirded for the pro vary point of tingle and domestic policy. Fer-in. position. But be would put it to the candour, to the sudg e, Admiuistraticn (doubtlessly with a conscien- itodgment, and to. the experience of the House, to tkes f ee ling), had determined not only not,le , vlieire say, whether either here or in the other branch o f the c a tholic: from the civil diSabilities. un- Legislature, there was apparently any difference of der w hich they.lahteued, but not even to allow their feeling in the country—any distrust of the Govern eue tn lie taken into considetation. On the other hand ment, as to call 'for the interference of Parliament ? roe who were hawked to join Administration enter- It was for the House to pronounce, whether or not 4 „`" T ed . oput •i o ns diametrically opposite, thinking it the conduct of Ministers was so criminal, so utterly absolute l y nec essary to emancipate the Catholics, and destitute in action of fair principle, as to induce the ,declaring that t he y should feel it their duty, if in the adoption of a new step completely inimical to the Cabinets to a dvise his Royal Highness the Prince. Re- principles of the constitution ? He should, therefore, ens w ta ke the best and speediest modes of carrying unless it could be fairly shewn to him that such was that object into effect. So also with respect to the the case, give his decided negative to the motion disputes between Great Britain and the United States and support the amendment. e f Amenca. He and the Noble Lords on his side of Lord ERSKINE, in explanation, observed, as to die House, contended that the Orders in 'Council the charge of a change of sentiments made against ought to be repealed. Administration, on the con- him by the Noble Earl, that lie saw no reason to tin y, refused even to bring this important subject disclaim any change of opinion, especially .if the ruder the consideration of either House of Parlia- change were from one that was erroneous. But he on e Notwithstanding the starving state of the ma- was somewhat surprised at the 'charge being made, infacturers, and the distresses of every description of , when it .must have been in the recollection of the people in the country, so detei mined were Ministers Noble Earl, that soon after the removal from office to keep up their system, that they would not allow of the Government of which he had been a Member, t he question tq be agitated ; they would not even he had avowed the same sentiments lie had expressed a gree to the appointment of a Committee to inquire that night, on a motion brought forward by a Noble into it. Under these circumstances of direct diffe- Earl near him.—(The Earl of Donoughmore.)— fence of opinion on questions of such vital impor- With respect to the Catholic question, the Noble mice, he appealed to the House and to the country, Earl must well have known, that there was, when he whether his Noble Friends could have acted other- was in office, an obstacle to its attainment which did wise than they had done ? The Noble Lord entered not now exist. The Noble Viscount on the cross into a long argument in favour of relieving the Irish bench (Lord Sidmouth) knew that he approved of Catholics from their disabilities, and said that a fish the proposition brought forward towards the close of might as well be asked to come out of the Channel the Administration of which he had been a member; and to live on dry land, as he not to maintain that though he was of opinion that they ought not to at all the subjects of the State ought to be placed on tempt to advance farther, because such an attempt the same tooting, arid ought to enjoy equally civil would lead to the dissolution of the Administration. r i g ht s . Unless any set of men had done something (4 laugh.)—The inclination fel , by Noble Lords to to j ustify withholding from them equal privileges, it laugh at any expression of the painful feelings in was tyranny to do so. The worst feature of Popery going out of office, sheaved clearly how necessary it itself was intolerance, and he hoped that worst of was for Noble Lords to think maturely before they featuns would not be imitated by Protestantism.— accepted office. His Noble Friends, in his opinion, Adierting to America, he contended that we ought had gone a little too far in that instance, and the con to contemplate not so much the present as the pro. sequence was, their Administration was dissolved. table future state of that country, and to reflect that The LORD CHANCELLOR conceived that if twenty years her population and her strength the Noble and Learned Lord thought that it was for tun render her either 4 powerful friend or a forms- the general benefit of the subject that he should take 4able foe. On the grounds which he had stated, he place, he was right ; but if he thought that to advo imurned his sincere thanks to his N'oble Friends for cote the cause of the Catholics as a means of attain */ manliness and sincerity of their conduct. As ins office was right, then he was wrong. If he could there was no good unmixed with evil, so there was bring himself to be of the latter opinion he should in evil unmixed with good; and although by the late vote for the motion, but he must be convinced that occurrences the hopes and expectitions of the coon- from the revolution downwards the country had acted ity had been disappointed, yet the public had been on erroneous principles. Every man who entertained m some measure reconciled by them to public men, principles similar to those of the founder of the Re and had - felt that they had been abused, when they volution, who held office upon opinions incompatible were told that all public men were influenced by cor- with -those principles, deserved public detestation.— topt motives. He trusted that some explanado • His Noble Friend, in his introductory observations stuld be given in the course of the evening, of the on his motion, had taken great pains to convince the causes that had deprived the country, at such a criti- House that be bad brought it forward - with the best sal period, of the services of the Noble Marquis, for of motives. No one could doubt the assertion. The *horn he entertained' a high personal respect, and Address then began with the most complimentary whose eminent talents were generally acknowledged, language to the Prince Regent, noticed the freedom both at borne and abroad. from restrictions, and the subsequent expectations en- Lord HARROWBY declared, that if in the tertained in consequence, and then went on to quer toerse of the oh ie lvations which he felt it his duty to ref with the only act which his Royal. Highness had make, he should say any thing at all injurious to the do n e s ince the restriction, and recommended the ne feelings of his Noble Friend who was the mover of cessity of forming an administration calculated to the original proposition, that expression would be ten conciliate the affections of the greatest part of the times more offensive to him than it could possibly be subjects of these realms. The Noble Lord then went to his Noble Friend. He had paused for a moment on to argue that the present Administration did not at the conclusion of the speech of the Noble and possess the affections of the people, and then, though Learned Lord who had just sat down, in :he expec- he does not recommend, wishes a broad-bottomed cation that his Noble Friend would have thought it Administration, which of all others, under circum 'proper to withdraw his motion. For what were the stances, was the most mischievous thing that could House called upon to do ? They were called to ad- happen. (Hear, hear.) Noble Lords seemed to be chess the Prince Regent, and to express their hopes pleased ; he was happy to give satisfaction, especially that his Royal Highness might be able to form an when Noble Lords were so prone to be out of humour united Administration. After the speech of the with him for no cause. The Noble Lord had stated Noble and Learned Lord, did the House really 'en- that those persons who had refused to take the Pe . tertain a n y suc h h o p es ? If not, would it hot be in- titions of the Roman Catholics into consideration tatting the Regent to tell him that the house of were o b nox i ous . Were an administration not likely Lords hoped h e w ou ld be enabled to do that which to conciliate the affections of the people ? If so, he the Noble and Learned Lord had just informed the trusted, the Noble Lord would, after he had turned House could not be done without a dishonourable .that Administration out, shew to the House where 'abandonment of principle ? an d on w h a t grounds did an Administration was to be found which should e.proposition for taking this extraordinary, and it conciliate the affections of the people. For his own Mould seem hopeless step rest ? In the first place, on part, he did most solemnly believe, that the people iiOme expressions supposed to have been dropped in were so exceedingly weak and foolish, as to give the Otother place, respecting Maynooth College. Was present Ministers much more of their affectionate it a new thing in that House, or elsewhere, to hear regards than many Noble Lords would consent to *edam to the grant for that college ? Was it a admit. Would it be denied that the Prince Regent * ground on which such a motion as that proposed Wald rest ? The has the right of choosing his Ministers, subject, next alledged r e ason f or hi s Noble i undoubtedly , to those proper checks which the Con- Friend's motion was, that a certain individual in ano- -stitutiOn provides? After those servants have been *he s t. place having given notice of a motion connected c ho s en, then they truth the Pet i t i on ofthe become the responsible advisers, Irish Catholics, another indi- ' and not before, of the Sovereign. His Noble and !ideal of his Majesty's Government had moved for a Learned Friend would therefore forgive him if he all of the House on that occasion. Now really, on said, that in a strict Parliamentary sense, the debate a question of Such extreme magnitude and import- on one.of the letters alluded to was disorderly, be !ace, it appeared to him, that any one might with cause one of the standing orders of the House was, lth a full attendance, without the imputation of such that his Majesty's name should not be mentioned in *Knives as might justify thepresent motion. Ana debate . It could nut be used for Parliamentary in iher ground alledged by his Noble Friend was, that fluence, as was shewn by the Noble Lord's harangue, mine Protestant Preacher, (whom he knew not, for for half an hour, on the proceedings of the 1 3to of he . had never h eard of the circumstance until that February. The case must be a strong one indeed; evening) had been declaiming violently againit the which could induce Parliament to interfere with the Catholics. This had been a very common usage Crown, in the nomination of its Ministers ; such a ever sinc e t h e R e f ormat i on. Had it increased so I proceeding would have the effect of destroying that C o nsiderably withi n t h e l ast s i x wee k s as to a ff or d a responsibility in the Minister, which Noble Lords pound fo r his Noble Friend's motion ? But then, I seemed so desirous to establish. It would be too ut .e dition to this, the extreordinary state of the press ! much to say, when his Royal Highness had in the hid been adduced that a in support of the motion. Was I first act of his authority appointed his Mlnistcrs, that new thing within the last six weeks? Certainly I Parliament should go to him and say, e Your p r ess l l l:___ teemed with strong attacks; but whence did Royal Highness has appointed an Administration proc i: t u d nr ? From what portion of the press did they which does not possess the confidence of the country, Was it because a part of the press wits ;, nor the affections of the people, and therefore you 1414ch 'us enough to bid defiance to all decency, that must get rid of those Ministers." The Noble Lord p th rien e 11 , ° r 1 must agree to the motion of his Noble ! had stated, that Parliament had refused to take into Adverting to the Noble and Learned Lord's consideration the Petitions of the subject. When, he t e s ar g t ura th e e n u t in favour of the Catholics, he observed, would ask, did such a Resolutioitpass? The Petitions that e..oble and Learned Lord was a convert on of the Catholics were not conformable with the subject;estab (hat fur when in the Cabinet, he believed lished principles of the Revolution in 1688. At that b irnse r f Noble and Learned Lord had not shewn Revolution, religious freedom and religious tolera- Noble a friend to Catholic emancipation. But the lion , consistent with national religion, were permitted prano and Learned Load did not now hesitate fp .to their fullest extent. To say, . therefore , . that that _ unce it tyranny, if Government expressed any sort of religions tpleration, which was incompatible 'altitude o ut the • t t figademestal principles of aociety with the VitaigiskOPligkou sii tie §4p, rksto lie , ad l ositte4 VMS a* argument which could not be en dured. It must not be forgotten, that at the Rev° , I utidn the Crdvni was placed on the head of a Pro testant for ever. - The question of emancipation had never been thought of by Mr. Pitt, and it was But In speechesin Parliament, and from puhlicationselsewhere that it had been commented upon. Securities had been talked of. Would the Must tell him what these pro posed securites were ? The sentiments and opinion* of Mr. Pitt he would wish engraved ott his tomb. All , that he required was a testimonial of his charaCter, to •, have thus written—g 4 The friend of Mr. Pitt." With • - respect to the sentiments of that ilhistrious man, all he could say was, that he died without being able to tell Met what those securities meant. If such was the opinion of Mr. Pitt, could he-be blamed for not agreeing to the prop&ition ?—There Was no man more disposed than himself to concede when it could be shewn that such concession was for the general in. terests of the state. With respect to the state of the relations with America, and the system pursued to• wards that country, that system was not really adopted—it had been carries on by the Government immediately preceding the one now administering the affairs of the state. He must therefore object to the argument which held forth the country as being too tenacious of her rights.. On the contrary, she had invariably preserved those rights, with a proper degree of feeling and respect to that nation, with whom it was necessary to be on amicable terms. The Noble and Learned Lord declared, that unless the Noble Lord could chew him some cause for the dismissal of the present Ministers, he was convinced that be was interfering in a way perfectly unconstitutional, and consequently he could not agree with the motion. Earl GREY was. not prepared to make a profes sion of political faith, however the Noble Lord might call upon him so to do. He would advert as well as he was able to all the topics which had been urged, and afford as well as he could an adequate explana tion. Sentiinents had been imputed to him directly contrary to those principles which he had ever pro fessed, and that misrepresentation of which be com plairied might be repeated in afew days, nay, within a few hours. He was anxious to state his opinions upon the question, not wishing to deny to the Nobh and Learned Lord, that the motion was substan aceesc6i of stiingd6 which peril that &oat' would benefit the Sala But what benefit coo arise from the conjunction of men who were thi determihed enemies of religious liberty! who Profits. ed to att upon principles a exclusion's° Catholics/ —There were two Noble Lords whom he saw whe were reported as likely to give strength to this *oak Administration. He did not know whether the de voted victims to place had received from the Prime Minister any communication of their ir:tended dis grace ; but these two Noble Lords had professedly avowed determined principles of exclusion. One of the Noble Lords had revivtd the Comn ition Oath as being an insuperable bar to the claims of the Catt , o:ics being allowed. In shnrt. at all points they had bent armed with the cry of “No Popery." Was this as Administration competent to all the putposes and ob jects for which Administration was firmed Was It not an Administration rather obnoxious c , ) the preplet Would such an Administration cotteiliate the affec , tions of the people i The necessity of conciliation was apparent. Much had been said of the principles of the Revolution : he was, however, prepared to deny that the principles of the Revolution weft such at now stated. The disabilities then Imposed were dif ferent from those at present insisted Urn ; those dila abilities were connected With certain politttal inca- pacities, which prevented them Iron receiving sr/tat they demanded. When the necessity for imposing these restraints ceased, then to continue them be came tyranny of the very worst description. The question to examine was, whether any danger wail to be apprehended to the State from the asttstmace eE these disabilities, or rather from the seratival of thessi _ _ So far from wishing to restrain the Catholics item dal exercise of their rights (as he would contend) in coma mon with their fellow subjects, he was for extending to all classes of the subjects of theserealma, that eman. cipation from restriction which they were entitled • to. What danger was to be apprehended from such concession ? He had the right to ask the Noble and Learned Lord to shew where the danger existed, before he was called upon to produce security against the existence of danger in the event of the removal of those restrictions. The danger existed in the continuation of these restrictions, which would deprive the Empire of the assistance of nearly four millions of her population. which, if unre• strained, would contribute materially to the strength and advantage of the State. The Noble and Learned Lord had said that Mr. Pitt, though he proposed the measure of concession, was not ena. bled to tell him what the securities for the due performance of the agreement were. The fact was, that the expectation was held out to the Catho lics, and therefore when the Noble Lord talked of not being able to ascertain what these securities were, he shewed that the conduct of Mr. Pitt was a mere pretence—a delusion held out to deceive Par liatnent. (Hear, hear.): When the Catholics had experienced from time time to time various cones. sions, had they not the right to expect, in confor mity with the promise held out to them, that further concession would be made ? Had they not the right to hope that they should ultimately obtain the fait object of their ambition ? Such had been the opinion of some of the most enlightened Statesmen. Mr. Fox, Mr. Burke, and some othets had been of that opinion. In 1793, and in 1793; these hopes had been held oth, though in the following years these hopes had been damped by the scenes of blond and torture which yea curred, and which had not been exceeded by the hoe• roil of the French revolution—scenes which made every English heart bleed. The Union had been oba mined upon terms, which not being fulfilled, had opts rated to the disgrace of the country; that measure had been carried into effect by the Catholics, upun a direct understanding, that in the United Parliament their claims should be attended to. If the House could ' put themselves in the situation of the Catholicso with their expectations blasted, what would be their feelings upon the occasion ? Was it matter of much surprise, that discontent should arise ? Was it matter of astonishment, that finding themselves duped, they exhibited chagrin ? The expectation still remained, and it was for the responsible advisers of the Prince Regent to answer, for he could not believe that his Royal Highneis would induce hopes-whieh could never be realized. It could never be expot ted that the " new era" would be an era of bigotry and superstition. The proposition of the Noble Mover was to form an Administration that should conciliate, 4 the affections of the people. He doubted much edge; ther the People of England were against Catholic Emancipation. He believed that if a new set of mak were called into power, the measure would be carried with little difficulty. With respect to the letter sign+ ed by his Noble Friend and himself, they therein see. ted that they would not accept of office upon any other terms than those which recommended the ado". tion of those measures of conciliation to the Catbo. lies, so necessary in his opinion to the safety of the State. The very terms of it cut off the probability of junction with the present administration. It seas, written not in the temper of exclusion, for however warm he might be in political conflicts, no man could accuse him of being subject to political resentnnitt. When differences upon great political matters shodld cease, he would not be averse to unite, if such units, could be advantageous to the State. But he would ask Noble Lords opposite, did they really ester with the views which he and his friends entertaind4,. that they could cordially join the present Admisia oration, for he must take it for granted, thee being the constitutional advisers of his Royal Hi g h. ness, they advised the letter which had beers sent to his Noble Friend and himself ? He would ask them, with feelings such as he and his No ble Friend possessed, would they have accepted offices upon those terms ? Would they consent to defeat all those expectations which the ehtlmiks knew they were - pledged to. The Noble Lord then proceeded to discuss the topics contamedin the Ad. dress, and with respect to America, he denied, if it was imputed to him, that he would lay at the feet of America, all the Flory of the nation, by giving up her national rights. He felt most imperiously the ami s . sty of preserving them. As to the circulation of the country, he was disposed to adhere to the opinion which he had always entertained, that it was neves.' nary to revert to those tree principles which in a ft*. State were the essential requisites, and without which the trade of the country eould not be placed upon its true basis. He vrobld not therefore-rennin a Member of that Government which declared that it was et. - ..ev to- make • Book Notes a le4 twist. <3n tially—a motion for the change of the Administra tion--(llear, hear.)—}ie was convinced the Noble Lord could not have intended it for any other pur. pose, nor could he understand it in any other light.- The intention of the Noble Lord. therefore, was to procure the dismissal of Ministers as not being the Ministers of the country, and wishing by the address to procure an union of the abilities of the country, competent to direct the powers of the Empire, and the resources with benefit to the State. With this view he was not disposed to deny to the Noble and Learned Lord that the measure was a strong one. With sufficient grounds stated to Parliament, he con ceived that the Sovereign would listen to the sugges tions of Parliament. It certainly was not a part of the proceedings of this House to nominate to the Crown the persons competent to form an Admini stration ; he had, however, till this night, thought that on the statement of sufficient grounds for re moval, an application from Parliament to remove 'Ministers was always attended to, and the more so at this important and momentous crisis of great diffi culty and danger. The motion of the Noble Lord was legitimate and lawful—that could not be denied; the question therefore would be, whether, in the Ad dress, the present Ministers had been truly described AS incapable of wielding the strength and resources of the Empire, so necessary to its existence ? The questions to be considered were, in the first place, whether the motion of Address truly described the Administration as in character and principles inimi cal to the public interest? and, secondly, whether those principles, and that character thus recognised, I could be maintained with security and safety to the i 1 Empire, and without endangering the establishment in Church and State ? Novr, of what materials were they composed ? They were in fact an Administra tion upon resistance to Catholic Claims. What had been the general conduct of the head of that Admi nistration since his elevation to power ? Why, an unqualified and eternal resistance to Catholic Eman cipation, as tending to the absolute destruction of all security in Church and State ; that opposition, the Head of the Administration was ready to main tain, and to support the principle of eternal ex clusion to all classes of his fellow subjects.— Wherever the head went the resk must follow. The Noble Secretary had said often, that Parliament had gone to the limit of concession. The Noble and Learned Lord had said that the fundamental princi ples of the Constitution would forbid the granting of the claims. Would he state that he differed from the head of the Administration in respect to opinions upon the subject ? Would-the Secretary of State in another place, who had regretted on a certain occasion that a grant of the nature then under discussion, had ever existed, would he differ from the - principles avowed by the leader ? Would the new addition to this strength in the executive Government (Lord Castle. reagh) would he, for he was an eminent person in po. litics, would he dissent from his colleagues? With such an Administration formed on principles to resist Catholic claims ? Such an Administration as should meet with the confidence and affection of the coun try ? It had been said by a Noble Lord, that he had never heard of the denunciations (alluded to by his Noble Friend) against the Catholics. These denun ciations had been frequent and loud for the last chile 1 weeks. They had proceeded from the pulpit in sera 1 mons, which on certain oceasions had produced to the preacher much benefit. One of these Rev. preichers had been lately gazetted as one of the Prince Regent's Private Chaplains--(Hear,hear. )—These were strong and undeniable proofs of the intolerance of the pre sent Administration—of the predilection for exclu sion, contrary to the genuine principles of the Brit* Constitution. The Noble and Learned Lord had said there was nothing so mischievous as what woe generally vulgarly termed a . broad-bottomed Admi. nistration ; there certainly wa - s nothing so mischie. vous, when forming an Administration upon a libetal basis, as to compose it of persons possessing discos. dant principles, which could not in any wise contd. bnte to the safety or security. of the Empire. He therefore was disposed to give credit to the Noble and i Learned Lord for not wishing to extend the Admi nistration upon a basis which should provide for the i security of the Empire. if reports were to be ere. i • 4464 the peat Admistietration Were to receive an ..... : • • • • . l4. Altarturnaht f a i u di c i o d s A.4. l tmou, MOM. " tit, the necessity of Porliameataty tlag4?n, the House mint ts.l4*- e t at I e • • uustration had loii the con once of the Country-.. Wits she, Houte so persuaded from the statementsmade birthe Noble Mover ? Was the Rouse 'satjsgeil 'that the present Governntent could