Star. — London, England, 1820-05-20 00:00:00

trict. Trite it was, that there were twenty-one Bo roughs in Cornwall, but in Wiltshire, where Crick lade was opened to the neighbouring district, there were sixteen Boroughs ; and where the Borough of Aylesbury was opened, there were sixteen ; se that tie same objection might be made with respect to epening these Boroughs as to Grampound, so far as the territorial neighbourhood of the right of election existed. Cricklade was opened to five Hundreds, in which were found the Boroughs of Malmesbury and Wootton Basset, and no inconvenience was found to arise from this circumstance. Hence he felt himself warranted in thinking, that there were no insuperable difficulties in opening Grampound to two or three llundreds even though they might be within other Boroughs. This was the most common mode of Reform, and the most consonant with the Constitu icae In his opinion, even if they (the House) \s ere balanced between . two courses, they would ect more prudently in preferring that which was to secure the Reform of Grampound. It seas not for him to say what difficulties might be opposed to the other course in another place; but he might observe that they had the experience of cer tain cases upon the Statute-book, in which, upon the fiLcts connected with them, the other House concur red with this in applying the mode of Reform which • he before stated. It was not for him to contend that this was the only mode which they (the House) ought to adopt, be only thought that they would be more likely to succeed by taking the old course, than by travelling out of it into a question of general Parlia mentary Reform. After the cases which already existed, he for one would not wish to send up a Bill to the Lords for the Reform of another Borough upon a new theoretical principle; and he was the less in clined to do so, because no necessity arose from local circumstances which went to the extent of sheaving, that the old remedy was not possible to be applied. There would be no difficulty in opening Grampound to a sufficient district, and yet the Noble Lord called on the House to deptrt from the uniform practice of Parliament, and to transfer the franchise altogether from Grampound. He (Lord Castlereagh) hoped it would be recollected that he never concurred in the expediency of that measure; and he certainly doubted the prudence of applying it where it was not neces sary. The Noble Movers first object was, he pre sumed, to reform this Borough, and if that were , the ease, it was for him in his prudence to consider' whether it was not better for him to train his mea sure, so as to make it conformable with the old custom, than to present it founded on a principle ;lot only much litigated, but upon which the ma jority of the higher persons iu the country differed widely in opinioa from the Noble Lord. Look-' in;; to the . preamble of the Bill, whoever agreed to it must aho admit that the right of representation grew out of the wealth and the population of the distakt represented, for such was the true criterion by which the Bill professed to give to Leeds the right of representation. Now this was not only a new principle, but it ss ent directly back to false prin ciples, in which he could not concur. Even if he dad admit the principle of transfer in this instance, he could not therefore be taken to agree in a gene ral principle, but only to admit transfer where it was rendered locally necessary. But even if he agreed in the general principle of transfer, still of all other modes of carrying it into effect, he did not think the best was to give the elective franchise, as this Bill would give it, to inhabitants paying scot and lot, or rent amounting to 5/. per annum. Such a scale as this would give a constituency to the borough of Leeds of eight or ten thousand electors. If lie agreed in the principle of transfer, this was, at least, a mode of effecting it to which he saw the greatest objections ; and if he were to chuse between Leeds ant the two Ridings of Yorkshire, he would certainly prefer the latter. It remained for him to observe, that he believed there was no instance where a right of voting was created by Act of Parliament.— That right either depended on the common law, or was conferred by Royal charter; and, in this view, the Bill would open a new principle of creating a franchise by Act of Parliament, which had hitherto been derived from another source. The more the House deviated from the course hitherto sanctioned, the greater risk it would run of taking up a principle which was likely to meet resistance. Grampound could be reformed by the same means which were applied in three other cases. Under these circum stances, he thought it the safest course, that Gram pound should be opened to the adjacent district. He would not oppose the second reading of the Bill, trusting that . the Noble Lord, upon consideration, would so alter the frame of the Bill in the Committee as to render any opposition to it unnecessary. Mr. TIERNEY confessed, that he heard the Noble Lord opposite, not only with regret, but with very peat surprize. When the subject was before the last Parliament, he understood that Noble Lord to have refused his sanction to the Resolution, which proposed that in all cases where a Borough was con victed of corruption, it should be disfranchised ; but that if his Noble Friend would confine himself to the particular case of Grampound, then the Noble Lord .apposite was prepared to go with him in such a reso lution as would propose to disfranchise that Borough. He might have misunderstood the Noble Lord, but it was the impression on his mind that the Noble Lord at least was not adverse to such a resolution. Lord CASTLEREAGH begged pardon for inter rupting the Right Hor.ourable Gentleman, but he thought it necessary to observe, that he had reserved himself upon that point, and that he had more than desired not to be understood as precluding himself from offering any opinion, which, upon further in quiry, he might think right. He wished the question to remain entirely open. Mr. TIERNEY proceeded.—He allowed, that two or three days after the debate, the Noble Lord had come down and explained himself in a more guarded manner than on the first night; but, even with that explanation, there was an Impression upon his mind, and he believed he might add on the minds of many others—( Hear, hear)—that the Noble Lord had con ceded the principle upon which the measure was founded. And a great deal of satisfaction was felt and expressed, not only within, but without those walls, at the prospect which such a concession af forded that his Noble Friend's measure would be car ried. This satisfaction was felt, too, not by those who were called violent Reformers, but by sound, praC tical, sensible men, who saw that the times called for SVIRC degree of reformation, and who felt that wise, . . . . . . then bast conform to the times in which they lived 'ers for the County should be allowed to all the 'iauo- (Hear, hear!)—Not that in this small degree of im- I cent Electors. He was not then prepared to say that provement they expected an immediate purification he was ready to consent to this new right; still less of abuses, but they thought they perceived in it a would he consent to have the tight of voting trans disposition on the patt of this House to do sont*thing (erred to any other place. ft would be much better towards a rational Reform-:-(Hear, Afar): But now, to distranchise by the addition of new Electors, who after the speech of the Noble Lord, he was to under- should over*helin the surviving votes. The ground stand that all this feeling of satisfaction was un- on which the Noble Lord recommended this Bill to founded, and that it existed only to be disappointed, the favour of the House, was that of its steering clear Now it appeared that Grampound was only to be of all wild And visionary theories of Reform; but opened to some neighbouring Hundreds, and the whoever looked At the details of the Bill, would find reasons for not going farther was on account of pre. that it went to diffuse a right of suffrage of the most cedent. Bat did it not occur to the Noble Lord, that extensive kind, and to throw a great part of the elec this precedent was established but a few years ago, tive franchise into that wide popular scale which it and that it was then itself a new measure?—(Hear). had ever been the principles of that House to resist. The precedent then set might be opposed fully as Many of those towns throughout the kingdom, where much by the arguments of the Noble Lord, as the the popular franchise prevailed most generally, were measure now proposed; and that was the only ar- much more limited, in regard to the right of voting, gument he used, except his allusions to another place than the town of Leeds would he, if this Bill were to might be so considered. But he (Mr. Tierney) de- pass into a law in its present form. And if Parlia nied that they in this House were to be governed in ment now recommended or sanctioned such a right, their debates by what might be supposed possible to a feeling of discontent would be excited through dif occur in the other House—(Hear, hear was ferent parts of the country, in consequence of the for them (the House) to do their duty, and the coun- scale of comparison which would be drawn between try would see which of the two Houses attended to these new rights, and the limited rights which al her interests—(Hear, hear !).—He did not deny that ready existed. It was on this ground chiefly that he this Bill was framed to let in the principle of Parlia- opposed the Bill in its present form. It might be said mentary Reform ; and the way in which it carne re- that he looked with jealousy to any measure that car commended to him was this, that it would pledge ried with it a principle of Parliamentary Reform. He the House, whenever a fair opportunity of mending certainly felt a general objection to any principle of the state of therepresentation offered itself, to do so. the kind ; but, at the same time, he would submit to Such an opportunity did now offer itself. He looked any portion of Parliamentary Reform which might upon this as a question, whether they were to - have belong to any measure, whenever such a measuie be -653 or 656 Members in that House ? He was for the came necessary for the correctioreof an existing evil.— old number of 658, and then he asked himself to But he could not submit to the. present measure, be what place it would be best to delegate the two seats cause it would go forth as a recognition of a princi which were forfeited in Grampound? He thought ple which ought never to be entertained by the that when Grampound was once disfranchised, they House. In the present case of Grampound, there did had no more to do with Cornwall than they had with exist a necessity of that kind ; but other cases might Canada—(Hear!).—The only thing they had to do, arise in which a similar necessity would exist, and was to see how they could best restore the full num- then the principle would be carried to a dangerous ber of their Members. The consideration then sug- extent. His wish was, thut there should be no other gested itself, whether, in a country affected in its example similar to that of Grampound, and that no circumstances by the natural course of time and other Boroughs would abuse the rights vested in events—whether, above all, ill a commercial country, them in such a way as to make it imperative on the where property was constantly fluctuating, it would house to adopt such another course as it was now be imprudent to give the light of Representation pursuing, After having said- thus much, he could to a place which, by the fluctuation of trade, has not agree to a measure that went to give so extensive become populous and wealthy. Was it better to re- a right of suffrage as was proposed by this Bill. tain the right in a place which, by a similar due- There was no necessity for creating a new Borough tuition, has lost both its population and its opulence? in Yorkshire. The effect of the Bill would be, to al- Would any man hesitate in answering the question low six or eight thousand individuals to have a right how the Crown would be guided, if it were about to poll for Members of Parliament, who had no such to give a charter to one place or the other—(Hear, right already, so far as some of them might be free hear).—The Right Hon. Gentleman then proceeded holders of the County, and to admit that right in this to contend in favour of transferring the franchise to instance, which would lead to endless pretensions.— a populous district. As far as the principle went, It appeared that in 1800, the population of Leeds he would have no objection to Liverpool, if it were was 53,000. In 1810, it had increased to 62,000, unrepresented. He had no party object in particu- and it might be presumed, that if it had continued to lariaing Leeds; for if his side of the House were to augment in the same ratio, it must now be about have one of the Members for that place, it was as 75,000—CHere Lord J. Russell said 70,0001—Well, much as they could expect; but he implored the out of these 70,000, allowing 35,000 to be males, House to consider what a benefit it would have been and leaving out about 10,000 for nonage, the rest of to Manchester, and to other similar districts, if they the male population might be estimated at 25,000. had the right of sending Members to Parliament.— Now the Noble Lord proposed, that not less than With respect to Manchester, he asked, if it was 8,000 of these should enjoy the right of voting. If likely such scenes as occurred there, would ever this was not universal suffrage, it would at least . have taken place if it had been under a regular mu - create a belief that Parliament preferred an extension nicipal Government, and had a common constitu- of the Representation much greater than other places tional vent for its political sentiments ?—(Hear).— possessed. In the town which he had the honour of A Noble Lord (Binning) smiled at this assertion. He representing, though the population exceeded 100,000, did not ask the Noble Lord to participate in that opi- the number of voters was only 4,000. The proposed nion—(el laugh).—There was an aukwardness in arrangement would therefore create invidious corn offering the right to Manchester after what had oc- parisons and general discontent. It was said in the curred, and he therefore preferred Leeds. He did not case of Wootton Bassett, that the same freeholders at all look to this proposition with a view to party had a right to vote for three Boroughs, but this would advantages, for if Leeds had the right of returning not happen in the present, for when the neighbour two Members, after all that had been said, the party ing Hundreds should have received Grampound, they to which he belonged would think themselves ex- would be saturated, and could take in no more votes. tremely well off if they could get one of them—(A There could be no object in transferring the elective laugh). It was the principle he contended for. It franchise from Grampound to another place, when it would take a weapon of offence out of the hands of was confessed by the Bill itself that voters would re the violent Reformers, who declared that the House main to be provided for, and that no other Borough of Commons would never do anything to reform had yet been thrown open in Cornwall. If after this itself, and, therefore, urged the People to clamour. It any other case of corruption should arise, the Noble would be, to a certain extent, an answer to them, and Lord should have his admission, that a case of ne would satisfy the minds of those who wished for Re- cessity was made out, and that it was proper a trans form, while they were as far removed from the intern- fer should take place. He only wished for some de. perate Reformers as could be. But, after the speech lay before such a measure should be adopted, and of the Noble Lord, he was aware it was of little use that the House should act by Grampound as it had for him to say anything. The proposition of his done by Penrhyn. Should a second case then occur, Noble Friend had received its death-warrant ; Corn- he repeated, that the Noble Lord would find there wall would keep its full proportion of 44 Members ; was no difference between them—(Hear, hear!) — the Hundred with a hard name (a laugh) would be " Let us, however," said Mr. Canning, " defer any added to the town of Granspound, and that was all acquiescence in the principles of Reform, as long as that would be done! If any good was to be ob- we can—let us avoid danger as much as possible, in tanned, even thus, he should willingly accept it ; but order to save the country from the difficulties, the in he was much mistaken if there would be any feeling conveniences, and the dangers that may be appre to-morrow, when the turn of this affair was known, hended from it—let us keep within the range and prac than general dissatisfaction and disappointment— tice of the Constitution, by.resisting the principle of (Hear, hear). It was their only piece of good for- Parliamentary Reform, until an occasion shall arise to tune, that they had one stage more, as the alteration overmatch us, when wemust yield !"—(Hear, Hear.) was to be made in the Committee after the holidays. Mr. GRENFELL said, he had long since been pre- He hoped Gentlemen would calmly and dispassion- pared to give his unqualified approbation to the dis-* ately consider the question ; would inquire as to the franchisement of Grampound ; but he had entertained feelings of their friends, and ask themselves whether doubts whether this Bill might not fail in its object. there was any danger in transferring the right of elec- With respect to Penrhyn, which he had the honour of tion to the town of Leeds or to the county of York, representing, there was a great difference between it from the disfranchised Borough ?—(Hear, heir). and Grampound ; for in the late investigation, the Mr. W. WYNN spoke in favour of disfranchising crime of bribery could be proved only against eight Grampound, but he agreed with the Member for persons in Penrhyn; it was a kind of scot and lot Bo- Northumberland, that it would be better to transfer rough, and there might be many Electors in it ca. Ithe right of election to Yorkshire. pable of taking a bribe; but the great majority of Mi. H. SUMNER had some apprehensions as to them were respectable tradesmen, who would never the right of the present Parliament to take up the stoop to any such degradation. question at all, since the offence of Grampound was Mr. D. GILBERT said, helud always been of opi committed against the last Parliament. As to the niou, that the very merit of that House arose from question, however, if Grampound were to lose its the circumstance of not being a complete Delegation franchise, he would he much inclined to give it to from the mass of the People. An assembly cousti- Yorkshire. tuted on such a principle would sweep away before it Mr. WENTWORTH BEAUNIONT (Member for not only the Aristocracy, but-the very Monarchy of Northumberland), in explanation of the .proposition the country. It would take all the power of the State which he intended to make in the Committee, said, into its own hands, and eventually terminate in a that it was his purpose to suggest that for the pur- military despotism. He did not mean that the Bill .pose of representation, Yorkshire should be divided than before the House would produce such an effect; into two Counties, the North and East Riding to but the principle it went to establish ought to be form one. County, the West Riding the other. The checked in the first instance; and, therefore, he should latter would remain as it was and send two Members I oppose the Bill as it then stood. to Parliament; and to the former he would propose Sir JOHN NEWPORT said, that Cornwall al to transfer the franchise now in question. ready possessed too great a weight in the represen- Mr. CANNING said, he was ready to agree with , tatioa of the people; and in every case of this kind Gentlemen that some new modification with respect the House was bound to give a fairer representation to the Borough o(Grampound was necessary, and to places where there was extensive population and that the Borough must be disfranchised; but the great property. He wholly differed from the Right place was not to be totally extinguished, as the Bill Hon. Member for Liverpool ; and he did so, because went to provide that the right of voting as Freehold. i this measure favoured the principle of Parliameu-1 tary Reform. It was the duty of the tlotsee to cor rect the abuses which gradually had crept into the Constitution. It was said that the Crown might grant new Charters to populous places; but be denied that principle, for the Union with Ireland had fixed the number of Rep:e entatives, so that the Crown could not now make any Addition to them of its own authority. Lord CASTLEREAGH explained . The choice of the boroughs in Ireland was directed tegularly. There was no new right to be created there, such as the Bill appeared desirous of lb ming here. Mr. WA RRE, in supperting the motion, protested against all desperate and sweeping measures; he wished to avoid extremes of every sort ; and he well knew that some Reform was not only necessary, but generally expected throughout the country. Every one without the House felt gratified at what had for merly fallen from the Noble Lord, and they said, ",Well, at last here is one case admitted, and one of the Cornish Boroughs will be at last disfranchised." He was anxious not to be consi(ie ed a desperate Re tot mer, and he only supported the present Bill he cause he was convinced of its absolute necessity. Mr. W. SMITH said, he could not but recollect the assertion of the Noble Lcrd on a former occasion, when he agreed that another place ought to be se lected in the room of the Borough that. was to be disfranchised; and why should he nosy depart from that principle-? He had a great objection to have the right of election for this Borough continued in Cornwall; for it the forty-tour Members returned from Cornwall were all Cornish Gentlemen, that ,County had an undue share in the representation; but the fact was, that the Cornish Boroughs sent all over England for Gentlemen to :epresent them ; and that was a reason why it ought not to have so many Representatives. As to the right of voting, he thought a householder in the toss n of Leeds WAS as little likely to be wider undue intlaence as a forty shillings freeholder in Cornwall. Mr. GILBERT thought it strange, that the Ho. nourable. Gentleman should throw out reflections against the Electors of Cornwall, he having beer him selfoncea Member for a Cornish Borough. (Laughter). Mr. W. SMITH said, he had represented a Cor. nish Borough—but he was returned in a way which might not be altogether agreeable to that House. Mr. 13ATHU1tST admitted that Grampound had forfeited its right to the elective frAnchibe ; and the only question was, what was the best mode of purl fying that Borough ? In a case of this kind, when a new measure was adopted, it ought to be applied with as little alteration as pos-ible in the existing state of things. In other instan:es, when Boroughs were to be disfranchised, no such measure as this was proposed ; and no more was done than to extend the right of voting to the adjoining Hundred. And he wished to know, if there was any thing so peculiar in the state of this Borough, as to make a different course of proceeding necessary ? Besides, it was here proposed to give a new right to the Electors of Grampound, by making them freeholders of the county of Cornwall. Then was there any thing so particular in this Borough, as to entitle its Electors, after losing their present rights, to such unusual privileges?—( Hoar, heir). Mr. lIOI3HOUSE said, that although this debate bad beet) protracted beyond the time which, he presumed, it war origin ally intended to occupy, yet he would beg leave to detain the House a little longer, in order to say a few words which might explain his reasons for supporting the motion of the Noble Lord. As Right Honourable Gentlemen on the other side of the House had thought it due to themselves, and due to their characters for fairness and candour, to state the reasons of their support to the measure before the House, he trusted they wooKallow him, in justice to his own character for fairnesrand candour, to make the same explanations, although they would proceed upon prin ciples totally different from those of the Right I lonourable Gen. tlemen. And, upon the present occasion, he thought the House did perfectly right in recognizing, as a pi ince r le, that the Repre sentation of the People wanted some Raform. Ile should him , self have taken the opportunity of submitting a similar proceed ' ing to them before, if he had not thought that the Noble Lord (J. Russell) might have lost as much by his (Mr. Hobbouse's) alliance in that House, as he had lost in the country by the alliance of a Noble Lord. Really, at that moment, it did seem very necessary that the House should adopt some measure of other, to prove to the Country, that they participated with them in the general call for a Reform of Parliament ; a nd so far as the Noble Lord had in some degree recognized that neces sit y in the preamble to his Bill, he (Mr. Ilobhouse) gave it his support. And be said this so much the more, because it had been represented in that House that there was a certain number of Reformers in the country who called for so much, that chef would not take less than they called for. If it were so, he could only say, that be was not one of those Reformers—(Hear, hear). He was one of those who received with gratitude every conces sion of this sort ; who were grateful for every step which was taken by the House in meeting the wishes and in favouring the just demands of the People of England. And he was most grateful to the Noble Lord (J. Russell), not only for what he had now done, but for what had been dune by him upon for mer occasions. With respect to the objections which had been taken to that part of the Bill, which said, that something should be done to reform the Representation, and to transfer the fran chise to Leeds, he could not concur In them ; because, all that he had beard upon this topic was, that those Honourable Gen• tlemen who so objected, would defer the fulfilment of that part as long as possible—would defer, what they were pleased to call, the evil day. The Right Honourable Gentleman who had used that term was not than in the House, and, therefore, he would not indulge in replying to the observation. But, as far as his voice might reach, he wished It to be known, that he did not consider it an evil day : he looked forward to it as one auspicious to these kingdoms, and beneficial to the nation—as a day caku lated to confer lasting happiness upon all classes, without alloy and without discontent—as that day, which would restore to the Crown its true and real dignity, and prove to the People of England, that they were still in possessiou of those invaluable rights to which they had so just a claim—(Hear, Hear). Mr. EDW Alt!) WARD remarked, that a Clau .e could be introduced in the Committee to effect any alteration that those who were dissatisfied with it in its present form might desire to move ; and, therefore, oieevery account it a,peared to him pros per to let it go to the Committee. Whichever Of the plans nor/ suggested should be adopted, he thouzlit the result would be a species of Parliamentary Reform, effected in a way the lease likely to alarm those who were opposed to the views of lie fornters in general. On every account the Bill ought to heal. lowed to be read a second time, and passed :o a Committee. Lord J. RUSSELL, in reply, complaint d of the Noble Lord opposite, for opposiag hi, motion um' such weak grounds as those he had supported himatlf on drat night. It appeared, that he (Lord Castlereagh) had little to say, but th..t the measure winch he (Lard J. Russell) proposed was diflerent Lem that adopted in the case of Shoreham ; but this was as we:l known in Decent., her last as it was now. He could sae no si ba :mail objection to the transfer which he proposed. In Cornwall, the population amounted tq 217,000, and 44 Members were seturned. In Yorkshire, ihcre was a population of :583,000 poi 5 ms, and but 32 Members were returned. In the farmer s, one Member was returned for every 5,000 ; in the latter, hat one was re turned for every 12,0410 persons. Under such circumstances, he could see no solid objections to the transfer of the elective franchise from Cornwall to a town in Yorkshire. He wasglad, as he was opposed to a certain class of Reformers, to have an opportunity of proposing the Reform which he now proposed, and which he regarded as perfectly analogous to the ancient law of the land. Ile indulged in no visioaary schemes, but he thought the President of the Board of Controul ciserisbed visionary 1 hopes when he supposed that the purdalament of one &Irmo' 7 i I N ,