Star. — London, England, 1830-02-20 00:00:00

11‘14111.6 • -------- meta (a laugh). The House wo , not forget that the ottinudis w e petitioner to come before parliament. He prayed that inquiry might 'for the ythe 1829 were lessAlr . -.200,11004 (bars those Ol' The M made into his case , and that he might be sent out of the yeas preceding, and that the' -ei of that year wen I r e . by coantry. about 8110,0M1. than those otiat before,making, in twolditm Mr. PEEL believed that the hon. gent. had correctly stated the le total ' diminution of 700 , 0001. He would beg leave to make e.rt.: ef the case, us far as the conviction of this person was con, 'one more observation, that in fotming an opinion of the ...Inert : his name was Wild, and in the year 1894 he was capitally value and amount of the reductions, be hoped the house would not I • mot ted, under Lord Ellenboyough's act, of an attempt, with a view those reductions with reference to the whole amount of the O r' ..ro.pointed instrument, upon the life of his uncle, in whose em. nual eraimatee. The total •arnount of the last estiinate was V:l' . he then was. That he might not prejedice the prisoner, he 17,600,0004 but if the house imagined that that was the sum upon ::t.• rained from entering into a detail of the evidence. The case which the reduction was effected, they would form an erroneous cal as to the stabbing was fully proved. After the conviction, the judge culation, and be led to an exaggerated idea of what the government e.ii u ,irubt whether or no the prisoner was sanest the time he tom- was able to perform. Of that 17,600,000/. it was in the knowledge rained the offence. The judge who tried the prisoner—judge Hay- of every man that heard him that the greater part of that expendi. lee was a man whoie complete knowledge of the law, and general ture was for services long gone by, and the remuneration of which eJrnanity in the administration of justice, must be familiar to could not be diminished consistently with the honour and faith every one. Entertaining the doubts already mentioned, he deter- of the country, and without a breach of the honour and a de. mined not to carry the extreme sentence of the law into ee'ect, but parture from the justice which at all times had distinguished eerennited it to imprisonment for life and hard labour. The hon. the character of the House of Commons—(A laugh.) With gentleman seemed to think that it was an illegal sentence. After these preliminary observations he would proceed to a statement all the consideration that he (Mr. P.) could give to the subject, he of the several estimates in detail, and to the several redue. could not conceive a question as to its legality. He had received dons which it had been found practicable for his Majesty's efght or ten letters from Judg e Bayley with respect to the case of government to make. He could assure the house that it had been the :his prisoner, in whom the learned judge! took particular interest, anxious desire of government to make everypoasible diminution in the mid in none of them did he express a doubt as to the legality if the expenditure, compatible with the maintenance of those establish sentence. Had he entertained any such doubt, it was probable meats which this country was bound to maintain. He had first to that he would have conferred with the other judges upon the sub- state a reduction of above 211000/. on an estimate which had ject. lle*(slr. P.) had submitted the ease to the consideration of amounted in the last year t 06,300,000/. and which was now reduced the I-iw Officers of the Crown—they had the whole case before to only 6,100,000!. He stated the sums in round numbers. The army them. and never hinted a doubt as to the legality of the commute- extraordinarits were next to be considered. It had been found pos. don. The general principle laid down by Blackstone was, that Able by watchful superintendence to effect a saving of 150,0001. a mtrilon might be conditional—that was—the King might annex With respect to the militia, or the third military vote, it had been to Ms pardon what terms he pleased, and this by common law.— found by the correct investigation of the tight honourable gen. His chief reason for believing the sentence legal was, that when tleman who filled the of of Secretary at war, that a reduction :sir Charles Wetherell, and the present Lord Chancellor, were At. of above sixty-five thousand pounds might be effected without torney and Solicitor Generals, they folly considered the case, and any injury whatever to the public service. To complete the eettswily never had a doubt as to the legality of the commutation. army votes, he had now only to allude to the reduction of They stated that, after the Judge had commuted a sentence, the the Commissariat. The estimates of this service for the present /r. Secretary of State could not make a fresh commutation of the he was happy to say, showed a reduction of nearly 2 5 , 00 et. commuted sentence to transportation for life. He had thought fit, total reduction upon the army grants would therefore be found to at the instance of Mr. Justice Bayley, to remit the hard labour. amount to 453,1401. This, he trusted, would evince to the house He knew of nothing more distressing than the situation of a man the desire of his majesty's government to effect every economical convicted of a capital crime, but acquitted on the ground of hum arrangement, and to reduce the establishment of the country to as pity. This was a case of that kind. Supposing this prisoner had low a standard as was consistent with her honour and security.— been acquitted on the ground of insanity, still he would have been These reductions would leave the whole of the sums to be voted at subjected to imprisonment for life. He regretted to say that there 7.316,0001. which was the total amount of the grant for the army.— were in many of the prise= of this country many persons in that When this was compared to the vote of the preceding year, he trusted condition, and reports were constantly made to him to this effect : that it would prove satisfactory to the house. Indeed the house —ni Here is a man convicted of arson and murder, and acquitted on would and the estimate leas than any that had been voted since the the ground of insanity ; and we are of opinion that the man is sane, year 1794. Whether the period had been one of war or peace, the and may be discharged." He could not conceive any thing more estimates of the present year were lower than at any former year. painful than the consideration he had to give to these circum. Here Sir HENRY Hs/Ammo e interposed, end spoke to the right stances. He had good reason for being cautious in the dis. honourable gentleman. charge of persons in that situation. It had happened a few years The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER continued :—Hie since, that a woman acquitted of a charge of arson had been released hon. friend said that the comparison was with 1804, and not with by his (Mr. Peel's) predecessor, she appearing perfectly sane. Her 1794 ; and even if his hon. friend were right, it was extremely setts. first act after her discharge from prison was to return to the place factory to find that the estimates were now lower than they had been where the original offence had been committed, and in the most ex- for twentynrie years. The next vote was for the Ordnance. If there traordinary and deliberate manner to set fire to the premises of was any one vote or grant of service more than another, which had the individual who had been before the object of her resentment. engaged the attention of government with reference to the reduction There was a case at Lancaster where a man had been acquitted, on of expenditure, it was this. On this, however, the amount of re. the ground of insanity, of an attempt to murder, and where it was duction would 'be found to be less, and it was limited to 29,0001. clearly proved that, after his acquittal, he had kept up a COMMTOINI• The next charge to which he would call the attention of the house ence with the view of murdering the person whose life he bad already was the navy ; and upon this branch of the pubic service it would attempted. lt constantly happened that persons living under prison be found that a very considerable reduction of expenditure had discipline, with nothing to excite :them, ..were restored to reason r taken place. The savings on the estimates amounted to 273,0001. and that when they were dismissed, and again mixed in the world, within a ;few pounds. With reference to the miscellaneous their derangement returned—their vindictive feelings returred— estimates, perhaps it was more difficult to make reductions, for a and they again sought out the parties against whom their original great amount ofdisbursements was connected with the progress of vengeance was directed. . This petitioner's own account was— works to which the house had given is previous sanction, and con. "a That he had been convicted of stabbing his uncle—that he sequently the works must be left unfinished, or the country must was heartily sorry for the offence—and that he had been led undergo a great expence in completing them. Reductions had also to the commission of it from intemperance which caused de- been made less practicable in this account; for former years had rangement. That the petitioner had been wounded In his head, been relieved by old outstanding balances, which of course were not and that a very little liquor had an injurious effect upon him." applicable to the present account. The reduction, however, He (Mr. Peel) had inquired of the uncle if he would be safe amounted to 276,9001. making the whole estimates of the year were his nephew released ? His answer was, that he would not be for the army, Navy, ordnance, and miscellaneous expends ' to safe were he released . He had intimated to the prisoner that, al. amount to 1,031, 9 e 01 : ( Hear .) This, he truste d, wou ld b e though his sentence could not be commuted, yet, if proper security considered by the house as a satisfactory indication on the part of were afforded, he might embark for new South Wales. He trusted ministers, to go heartily and cordially into the great the house would be of opinion that he had acted so far as was con- work of reduction to which they had considered themselves sistent with justice. The original purpose wee, that he should em. pledged from the moment of entering office. But in estimating the bark for New South Wales. expenses of the ensuing years, it had been found practical, by the Sir C. WETHERELL confirmed the statement of Mr. Peelem reduction of interest upon exchequer bills, to make a saving of The ease was laid before him when he was in office, The punishment 180,000/. in the annual expenditure. Thus, in the present year, of death could be commuted for perpetual imprisonment, but aam there would-bet total saving of 1,300,0004 His object had been cold commutation could not be made. to state facts to the house; and he would not trouble it with any After a few words from Mr. PF.EL and Col. DAVIES, ' farther observations. If there are those who think with the hon. Mr. STANLEY withdrew the petition. member for Aberdeen, that a reduction of 8,000,0001. or ten mil. TREASURER OF THE NAVY. lion pounds was practicable, they will now find themselves much Sir J. GRA HAM gave notice that on Monday next he would deceived ; if, on the other hand, there are those who agree with that mere a resolution condemnatory, as we understood, of the way in hon. member, in believing that it was not the intention of his Wes wiech the treasurer of the navy was appointed. ty'e government to effect any reduction whatever, to such persona Mr. O'CONNELL gave notice of a motion for Monday respect. the statement he had submitted to the house will prove an ing the practice of quarantine. The hon. member then presented a agreeable surprise ; and he trusted, that to the house and petition from the parish of St. Luke, Dublin, against the vestry act. to the country it would be satisfactory, because the reduction had Laid on the table. been made without Impairing the efficiency of our establishments, Upon the motion of Mr. ATTWOOD, accounts were ordered and because it had been made without display.—(Heat, hear, hear.) of the quantity of half-sovereigns and other coins issued since the They had not attempted to make that specious reduction which year 1824. would only lay a foundation for actual increase in some future s ear, Mr. JEPHSON gave notice that on Tuesday next he would move when the pressure of some temporary distress might be experienced. for documents relating to the late special commission for the county But they, by looking to the minor expenditure—by lopping off' of Cork. those little excrescences which had sprung forth unobserved, they Mr. WODEHOUSE presented a petition from the occupiers of had effected this reduction, which, he would venture to say, was land in the Parish of Kissing, in Norfolk, against the tithe system. calculated to give relief to the people, and afford them an earnest of Laid on the table. the intentions of his majesty's ministers to do their duty as far as STATE OF THE COUNTRY. regarded the expenditure of the country.—(Hear, hear.) 3lf. E. DAVENPORT rose with difficulty, as well as edam Mr. HUME said that if any hon. member understood him as tance (having suffered for some days, under considerable India- having expressed his disbelief that no one item of expenditure was position,) to remove certain misrepresentations which had gone to be reduced by government, his words were altogether miscon. abroad, concerning the motives which caused him to postpone his °deed. What he had stated was, that he did not entertain any motion on the state of the country. It bad been erroneously said exportation of such relief as the country had a right to look fur, that the:motion was adjourned eine die, that he waited in the and in that he was not disappointed.. The right hon. gentleman had hope of gm/Liniment proposing some remedial measure, and that made a statement, which to him (Mr. Hume) appeared quite mo ire feared embarrassing ministers. None of these reasons were neous. He told the house that the present estimates were lower than true ; he entertained no such hopes or fears—he had no con. any which had been presented since the year 1704. fidence in any intentions of government to relieve the country; Mr. Secretary PEEL—No; 1804. nor did he fear, by Investigating the causes of the general em. Mr. HUME proceeded—Well, no matter whether 1794 or 1804. larrasment, to embarrass those who had produced it. No doubt —(a laugh). He found that so far from the right hon. gent. having many friends of the motion wished it postponed, and that any cause to congratulate the house, the case sou quite otherwise. was reason enough for, delay, had there not been caum more The reduction now made was not for one year, but for a series of titan sufficient in the illness of the mover. On a motion of years, and the amount gradually came down to the lowest scale such consequence, compared with which all others were but contemplated by the government. He (Mr. Hume) held in his as dust in the balance, it was desirable the whole country hand roma documents which would show Wow very little cause there Should have full and sufficient notice, and he had therefore was for congratulation. They were not the official estimates of the fixed on Wednesday, March, 3, in ignorance that his honourable Government, for many of those were erroneous—for example, friend the member for Knaresborough, had a motion on that day, where it was stated that the estimates of last year were less by which would brat at least the whole done evening. He was there. 200,0001 than those of the year before, whereas it was an theme fore obliged to fix Friday the sth, on which day he should - certainly tionable fact that in the three great branches of the public service, take the sense of the house upon the motion, and probably should the estimates of last year were more by 460,0001. than those of the follow up the present notice, by moving a call of the i hourn on that year preceding. occasion. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER explained. It NAYS AND MEANS. 1. would be seen that the balance.theet contained an account of pay- Upon the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, meats made, and which had not been carried to the estimates. A the house resolved into a Committee of War and Means, Sir A sum of 500,0001. had stood over in the balanee.sheet in the Freud- GRANT in the chair. ; - Mg year. After a sum of 2,500,0001. part of a sum in the lintehequer . was Ida HUME continued—Ministers took the estimate or the ha voted to his Majesty, to be applied to the service of the year 1830; lantemheet of the expenditure just as it suited theft purpose. Re. and a sum not exceeding 4,000,0001 was 'lilted out of the etinsoli , ferries to the year 1852, he found the total expenditure of.the three dated Fund, to make good sums already guinea. - branthes—namely, the entry, the Allyn, and . ordnance, to be The house resumed, and the report of these %solutions of the 16,000,6001. last year it was 17,660,0001. being 1,060,000!. more committee was ordered to be received on Monday text. thin in 1823. In the following year, 1823, it was 18,100,0001. The SPEAKZE resumed the chair. showing an increase in the expenditure of last year of upwards of COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY. 1,000,0001. All that the right honourabk gentleman now did, was The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER rose, and said by a reduction of 1,000,0004 to bring the country back to the state that in moving that the house do resolve itself into • a committee o f it stood in the years 1822 and 1823—(hear, hear). But could he the whole house to take into consideration the supplies for the (Mr. Hume) be told that this was real reduction when he were only present year, he should take the opportunity of redeetthog placed in the situation in which we stood in either of those years ? the pledge he had given a few nights ago, that ~he would avail He must totally protest against the conclusion that we were now at himself of this °ce s sion of stating the sum total Of those reductione the lowest pitch of expenditure of any period since 1804. The house which it was the hitention of his Majesty's Government to maie would recollect that he bad on a former night submitted a proposition upon the estimates. Tbs.:house Would thus have before them tire to the house fa effecting a reduction in lime army and the ordnance whole of the documentmend explanations 'refute they came to any to the amount of 1,250,000/. He would titter eery briefly state the consderation of the drawls. The et arse he now Intended to pur. grounds , bf that positioo. ' Latterly the erpendifureof the army sue was In some respects different from other predicts when these had been transferred to the ordnance; .it was not therefore, fair' to subjects )u.4 been brought forward in former years. He was not take the present estimates as teethe military establishments alone, fin ;mare, however, dim this course woalshbe attended by any difficul. the army and the ordnance ought to be taken together.. Last year the ties ; but be would solicit the indulgence of the house, if upon a estimates teethe army were 7,7008001; for the Ordnance 1,509,0001. future presentatileu of' other mammas he should be foetal to Vary making altogether 9,269,0001. The hen. member then proceeded to from the statemigur he should make upon the present occasion. say that the whole expenditure of the army and ordnance for the could undertaln to say, did wbetever variation theme might be sent year, after deducting dead weight or half.pay and all otiose in the statements, the ',eduction would not bu found to be lose charges, was, in round numbers , 6,00M,011104 From tills sum be than that at which h e sh ou ld state it; for it :had always beet; propose d that 2,000,0001. should be taketi, and there weeld ibis his principle not to onetime to exaggerate the difficulties of the remain 4.000,000/. for the whole efficient expenditure- of its may country, nor to Rejig ie false colotire the proepeem of relief—(heer.) and the ordnance, a sum which, to him, appeared quitantough ist The path he had' itter 'taken would bettered aceemable to the house, every useful purpose. lie admitted, however, that it would net he ter it would be &Mid not to oceggy Muth Of the time of the hones. - enough if the ordnance was to be kept up en t he reset extamegast In stating the amount of thergirdione, he thould have to deal with scale. He druid by no mean. agree with those who thought that several fireta,.lo4. lie eficridd #lthisM from ineolved imminent', for the artillery ought not to be reduced far below the present= eutirtoples were atter fur trepaidlitratiOn betedler, Wei ,they would her. Since the year 1798 or 1797 the artillery and en Mintier eapkiged 14 'histipig.thithg near him. He should beg had increased threefold. In 1792 the whole expenditure et leave to•make the or two piton ter the House before be came the artillery, engineers, tappet's, and miners , wee only 181,0001.1 to state the **hits' . * l a g of ibe. extent of . the reductions, In 1822 it was 427,0001. - and, hi 1828, 471.000/. . The num. 4aet which it Ma tirk the 4 .. fif hiellajoity's Government to make, her of men had doubled dace the year 1792. 'ln that sypr he trusted dig+ the Hodeonniptcl bear. in mind the amount of the the number of staff officers of engineer* was only two, estroditurtil - Arta nidietio n . tree to be made, and reflect that now it wean.% in feet, the whole army were hops tip in a Mahn X if was mild musidepid in. th e WC of a reduction upon the ea. which lathed is if it were ready to take the 6ela-fet WOW. Benue Of tag year. he trusted that gentlemen would loo—(Hest.) He himself could by no means me dm ty fee me that the estimable wen not forged immediately after years of this great increase of military power in a country like this , which continued and increasing expenditure, but that they were presented was so well protected by its insular situation. beam of all could he to the House Ass successive periods of reduction and retrench. see the necessity of it in a country which was borne down by op. d%*#f ':::' - ' • -- 4`.~ ..poondsv lainnipn. While such a system waVgjo continue, beedisitilot expect that any reduction would whieligthrld .atidlienet the wants and wishes; ofthepthple. would callnpon "the holes to recollect what be had etate4on previoueoieZU ions {tat ailiikithey were voting away 2,ljddioool.for keeping up fortifications in *Canada, they had ar l itt to force upon ministers the necessity of re. dtuAtion.lt was said tha n this iindance,no reduction could take place, for that government, having once unbatked in the works, must still proceed. But where, he would ask, was the necessity for embark ing in them at ell? Why in this time of profound peace was the nation t iut to en expense of - 280,0004 a year for militia ? Why did the .vo hewer corps now cost the country 66,0001? Why were not ihesc items struck out of the public expenditure? Was there not patriotism enough in the aristocracy to muster their retainers without being paid foe it ? He knew very well that had Mr. Canning been now alive, that eminent statesman, consulting the wants and wishes of the people, would never have sanctioned an expenditure of 101. a year for each individual belonging to a yeomanry ovolunteer corps. (Hear.) He held a paper in his band . which showed that, since the year 1817, the militia had put the country to an expense of not less than 3,900,0001. The reduction of only 278,0001. in the miscellaneous estimates was quite paltry, and not to be talked of for n moment. He could see no rea son whatever why ministers should involve themselves in public works which wou ld be attended with great delay and expense, bat which, since once commenced, must be completed. What bodies. ease of the 300,0001. for Irish miscellaneous estimates? The S. name committee had recommended that the grant should be reineld to half that amount, but he did not see that anything was does le the matter. All who looked into these estimates would see whet vast sums had been wasted away in Ireland for the last twenty y' and for no other object whatever than to keep up an improp In. Buenaagainst the peace and happiness of that country. ( fleas.) Now, however, that the condition of Ireland was daily improving, and that the passions and pvejudices of the peop le there were setting down into tranquillity, they had a right to expect that In. land should in every respect be plead on the same footing with England and Scotland. Was there to be no reduction In the Co. bogies ? Was it possible to see with patience the colonial appoint. menu that had taken place, and the persons who filled them receiving enormous sums for doing little or nothing, while this country, already overwhelmed with distress, was made to bear the further burden which each of them entailed upon her 1 (ILe b i l ; t t But returning to our military expenditure, he found it al disproportionate to the resources of the country. He was quite convinced that the country was not in a state to keep up 81,000 infantry, 8,000 artillery, end 30,000 seamen. This was the whole aggregate amount of our force, and it was one which no country ought to be called upon to keep up in a time of peace.— Of what use amid such a vast body be in times like the present ? The persons composing it did nothing except become pensioners upon the government. Ministers, instead of adopting the recoup. mendation of the finance committee of 1817, which called upon them to reduce cnienditure, still went on increasing it from day to day. They rued increased the number of men for the colonies haw' 65,000 to 75,000 men. No effectual reduction could be made unless the number of the military was reduced. The stag, seri& posed chiefly of medical officers, had increased the expense to the amount of IC.I, 0001. He contended that a reduction of at least 20,000 men ought to be made. The hon. member concluded some further Observations by stating that ..f the 16,000,0001. proposed by the Estimates as the expenditure for Cie army, navy, and ordnance ' departments, 6,800.0001. might be reduced, which, added to deal amount of surplus revenue, would effect a relief to the country to the amount of 8,000,0001. Lord ALTHORPE said he would not withhold his praise from the reductions as far as they went 1 they certainly were greater than he expected ; but yet he was bound to say they were not suffi cient, when be considered the distressed state of the country hear, bear.) They were not su ffi cient to give any material relief hear.) As he was on his legs, he would tee the opportun 1 :; a :} thanking the right honourable gentleman opposite (Mr. Peel) he the reforms he had stated to be in his contemplation on the pro. ceding night. The right honourable gentleman appeared die: posed to strike off more patronage than any other administrat e don had ever before consented to resign (hear, hear, hear.) He trusted this was a sign that the right on. gentleman intended 10 carry on the government supported by the attachment of the people; but he begged to rerninet him that he must first ameliorate the eon. ' dition of the population, which could not be done without affording them relief from the burden of taxation. He was surprised that the right 11013. the Chancellor of the Exchequer had said aagg of the taxes, although he did -net expect that any administration would ever make a sufficient reduction of its own accord. The house must compel them. He was well aware of the feeling that prevailed in the breasts of those presiding over any put'. cubs departments. For instance, be knew the energy and activity the honourable and gallant officer (Sir Henry Hardinge) displayed in the management of the affairs of the ordnance. He knew his anxiety to have eve/ will the same state of order and efficiency u in time of war ; and be could understand the pride be (Sir H. Hardinge) felt in his department, and the sentiments which wculd urge him to oppose any reduction which would have the effect of diminishing the force over which he exercised a con. troul. But the home should not share in those feelings, nor adopt such reasoning. They should recollect that their best way to prepare for war wan by filling the pockets of the people—(hear, hear, hear,) and not by keeping up our military establishmebt on the same enormous wale as at present. In conclusion he would observe that it would be their duty to look to the various ulti mates in the committee, and to reduce them as much as they could. --(hear, hear.) Sir E. KNATCHBULL allowed that the reduction exceeded his expectations, and he gave the administration credit for wishing to re duce the expenditure of the country to .the utmost possible limits, consistent with what they deemed the efficient maintemsoce of the civil and military establishments. But the amount of this reduc tion was in nowise calculated to give relief to the people in their present distressed condition. He had in a frank and candid manner borne witness to the good intentions of the administration ; while he at the same time declared they had not done enough. In dis cussing this Tuition, he, however, felt himself placed in a situation of extreme diffictilty. (Hear, hear.) He might look to the nude.' lishments of the country in reference to itk character and si tuation in the European community. In this vie*, be must agree with ministers that there could be no farther reduction. But there was another view of the ease, which referred to the int o& teal circumstances of the country; and looking thus, he was bluff to ask if the country could bear the pressure of its present ber• thee ? and then he would be obliged to acknowledge he could net ism the capability of its supporting itself in the situation it at. that intenent . oecupied. In looking to the administration, he could say that he believed that there via no gentleman connect e d with It who did not ably end zealously discharg e the duties of his office ; and yet When there wawa question if the 'ratifies of public men ought not to be reduced, he was obliged to give his voice in the affirmative, be cause he felt that It was impassible for the country to pay for their Services at that rate—of which' they 'were, perhaps, well deserving. The fact was, the government had only two courses Open to them ; they must either change the policy they had for some time past put end, or they should reduce taxation. The administration was pre duly placed under these circumstances; within the last five years they had adopted the liberal ;Kilicy (as it wee called) of the hon. member for Montrose, and others hon. members, who generally oat on the second Opposition Bench ; they followed their advice in re. spent to matters of commerce and the internal government of the country, but they had neglected that which the hon. gentleman bad al. ways recommended as a concomitant of this free trade system ; - they hedsnade no reduction In taxation (hear, hefty) therefore they had now only one of the two courses to pursue; they aunt either ahem. don this new policy, or they must make an efficient reduction In taxation (hear, hear.) For if they hesitate now to adopt the comm. mitant measure, and so decline both courses, the counter must fall between the two propositions, and be (Sir Edward Knuchbull) knew not hqw It Was to be extricated (hear, hear, hear.) He m4ht be deceived in these gloomy prospects, and he should be rarged ted If he was so; but he felt that be would not have his duty, if he bad not stated his views upon the subject. Giving, then; his majesty's ministers credit for the best intentions, acknowledging that the reductions had exceeded his expectations, be would conclude by declaring he saw little, prospect of their re lieving the country from the desperate state of distress under whist it then suffered, anklet:en Orthe two ifiltin L. 140 Mentioned was peomptly taken.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. W. NORTON said, the alluehm In the King's epoch to the distress of the country was vague end uneatisfestorh TheCe were three classes suffering at present. The landowner, who did not get his rents ; the capitalist, wbo had to endure a diminution of his profits; and lastly, the labourers and artisans--the mostmoat ounterous of the three—who were compelled to werkfor their eopport. 'Now. contended that unleas a divon was toads in this tifiPikaats :c I W. racier of distress, little thuM be done. Every man moat agree wish 'Hi "11 to the - - - •ducing • better. able to pay them in soother currency. The hon. baronet, who now complained.= :much .of .tbe operation of the altered currency, should have had the same thoughts in 1819, and should have recollected that the change must be injurious to per sons who bad mortgages, jointures, and other charges on their estates contracted in one currency, and about to be mild in another. But how a second change—a change from our present to our former currency—was to relieve the suffering classes of the community, he really could not understand ; and after the positive declarations of ministers that they would not alter the currency, and after the support the house had given to those declarations, he thought they were precluded from even making a change the subject of consideration as one of their measures of relief. (Hear , ben.) He must, however say, that the immediate relief of the classes would not operate as a relief to the whole manaunity, for past experience had proved that great prom. perky 'flight exist in one portion of the empire and great die. tress in another. The fallacy of the expectation that the proape. rity of one class—and that a very large clam—must necessarily he accompanied by the prosperity of all the rest, was shown by the circumstances of the year 1825. In the speech from the throne !in that year, which, by-the-bye, was made prior to the currency transactions now so much bewailed, the prosperity of the coun try was spoken of in a very glowing manner—every one echoed the rejoicings there made, and language seemed too weak to describe the almost overwhelming prosperous state of the assatry. Yet at that very moment Ireland was in a state of Misery, =squalled In any portion of the civilized world. But if it were true that this country was most prosperous at that moment, when distress and wretchedness were so widely spread in Ireland, it might also be true that the restoration of the stiffening working classes to a state of comfort would not be accompanied *with a general re turn to prosperity throughout the country. (Hear, hear.)... He wished besides to observe, that the mode of relief recom. mended by the honourable member for Aberdeen was hardly likely to produce any extensive good, for the dismissal from the str. vice of 20,000 men, who must be thrown upon their already over. charged parishes, would not be likely to diminish to a great extent the burdens of the people, since those men must be supported by taxes upon the inhabitants levied either in one shape or another. In his conscience, therefore, he did not think that remedy was calculated to produce much benefit to the people. If, indeed, the 20,001) men could be taken away altogether, and the country was never more to see them, in that case the reduction might be efficiently applied to relieve the burdens of the people ; but if their mere dismissal front the army was to be put forward under the pretence of a reduc tion that was to relieve the people, he should certainly oppose it, even if he stood alone. He thought by no means a judicious course in hon. gentlemen to speak of such reductions as likely to produce mach benefit, and he thought they could hardly with propriety be wilted up in discussions of this kind. Mr. A. BARING said, that Government was right in aiming at every kind of retrenchment, and although it might not be so exten sive as to afford great relief, yet it would be acceptable to the coun. try, as it would be an earnest of what they meant to do. He felt that the business of the evening was to discuss measures of finance, and that it would be better therefore to postpone other topics . until they came regularly before the House. Still he was not disptised to blame those representatives of the people who took every occasion to press upon the attention of the house the distressed state of their constituents.—(Cries of hear, hear, hear.) The hon. member for Kent was mistaken when he sup posed that the government had been acting on the system of the hon. member for Alontrose, for one part of that system was a free trade in corn. This was a measure which the hon. member for Montrose always contended would pro duce a great amelioration of the distresses of the people ; but he (31r. Baring) only alluded to this to chew the hon. baronet that Go. moment bad not been acting on the system of the honourable member for elontrose, as the honourable baronet appeared to sup. pose. The question of to-night was the reductions proposed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who had only presented the I pleasing side of the picture, but had not said whether the reduction be proposed would cover he defalcation of the revenue.—(Hear, bear.) From this source, therefore, no reduction of taxation, nor relief of the general distress, could be expected. He feared no re duction of taxation could at present take place. He could not agree in one principle of the member for Aberdeen, that was the sweeping away every suplua revenue. In what state would the country now be if there had not been a surplus revenue to meet the defalcation of the revenue. He was satisfied the country would lose its credit if all surplus was taken away ; and, in happier times, he hosed to see some effort made to reduce the enormous amount of the ebt ; and unless some gentleman had some great financial measure to propose, he could not see how the present scale of taxation could be reduced; and if the govenunent or any honourable gentleman had any in tention of proposing a reduction of the malt or any other tax, be thought it would be very desirable to have that question brought forward and disposed of. He believed the government had given the most sedulous attention to the question of diminishing the pub lic expense, and the reductions now proposed, coupled with the sa crifice of patronage, convinced him that they were sincere in their proiasiars of making every reduction that was practicable (hear, he=w; bar.) The expense of colonies was enormous, and when they mated no assistance in any way to British industry they ought to be 'Neu up. He alluded particularly to the lonian Islands, which wefts an enormous cost to the country, end from which we got nothing but currants for mince pies. The greatest bead of expenditure in which be thought permanent reduction could be made was the sys tem of tread Weight, which now amounted to six millions. Instead of gently - Wag such a system, he would almost prefer the American system, where Government only paid for actual services, leaving its servants, like every other class of citizens, to provide for their own superannuation, which, in this country, was always In their power to effect by means of insurance and benefit societies. He should be glad if Government had been able to make a greater reduction, but he was grateful for what was done. Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN was wholly dissatisfied at the proposition made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and was con fident no one out of the house would be more satisfied than himself; as it was utterly impossible such a reduction could afford any relief of the proem general distress. There was no tax which bore more heavily than the house and window -tax, which ought to berepealed, if the relief of the ecople were intended. Mr. MABERLI contended that the best way to relieve distress was to take off taxation, and to limit the excenditure. If, since the peace, proper economy had been practised,. there would have been at this moment fifty or sixty millions in the treasury to meet the wants of the people. The reductions contemplated were too trifling. Why, he would ask, was there not a consolidation of public of As to the navy, there was no reduction in it worth mentioning. Ile could not sec the necessity of keeping dock-yards, and of building ' ships which were not wanted. The colonies were also s great burden. and required a large infantry corps; but of what use were tl:e horse.guards ? The estimates last year were 17,300,0001. which was mote than was recommended by a committee in 1817. Hewisked the house to recollect that whatever reduction of expenditure was spok e n of, there was no reduction of taxes premised by elinivent. He should like to see, for instance., a reduction of the duty on bier: in short, there ought tobe a revisiou of the whole system of taxation. He had no hesitation in saying that great reduction in taxation and expenditure might take place without in the least degree impairing the public service, and he implored the house to refuse the es t mates until %I inisters promised great reductions. At the Name time he felt called upon to say that he approved much of the mode in which the Chancellor of the Exchequer made his statement. Mru FERGUSSON said the house would be justified t . oe eyes of the world in reducing 9,000 of the army, by reason of the pot change which had taken place in Ireland I and the present state of the east of Europe; was an additional reason for reduction ; it: fact, the cotintry being pow in a state of tranquillity, the people were entitled to profit by that tranquillity. NI. W. 8311TH had anticipated, from the extreme urgency of the times, that Minions would have presaged to cfer a scheme tor effecting a much larger reductica chi expenditure. The question was then put and carried, that the Speaker should have the chair. ARMY ESTIMATES. The house having resolved itself into a committee on the army estimate. take the liberty of submitting to ti:e consideration of the Louse iii ii 4r w il i k l ;lllV tas H k A imposedl tD l N(i on E h ni6e im Ly an h l is o s ili ta C ed ial t d lu la ty t , i i n ie w aro P u : l : :l proposed army estimates for the year 1830. In &frig so. he felt is would be the clearer course, In the that instance, to state whit wee: the w d ra iffer r. eannedee,expirtithasvnofwaryeniwnlyto.thin:at,A j ,etn est s i , m th a e te r s ed o u f c t t h in io n it had been found practicable to make, together with the savings ,if expenditure in He should commenet with the higher deparnitent—itamely, the office those several departments accruing to the public of Cominaredes.isi.Chici, mom particularly as the hon. 111C1111NT for his uniform custom. he regretted to Meateora.—witout, oentsary to find absent fovea his plare—hed statedihnto. sedueiion only • • ' office. That MMttrttr owners had having mai aintintifises the We" of Let year he the media departraert. y, and he mould have Ite:=Fz i to attract number to the tact via de inoluc. o the general Stall; which in the pteitvt.t /mount 109.3474 for Englund ;ad Ire. haelts. The office ol'ildiutaint-fikesural. , dope* highly conducive to the good cos selidlesy, had, boweves„, in couiplisnee with imp dastoutiottell, and that officer, in I meritorious ate. and bis Powil ac• eeduesime of the othie, on to bum a me * IN (Bear.) In the Wasudfice he G% 400 his persona& °Wreathes. that IMO 17111 2 SOctsd (MOW tfficiabw! or ..11 1 / 8 WOWS. lON %NI. The bwelnet- , clerks, and yet It was conducted and the country than it was in 1787, when Mr. Hume as M the eqpediency of reducing taxation; inn that h a d b een attempted in off honourable memba sans deceived himself wilco be fancied that aho accused govemment of bs the distress of the peWlis the 1 4 / 9 1 010/$ and attl 4 l 4 l would be part of the reductions of W by iddiryi .20 or. 8040 Q men to their number. He Now he was lumpy to say, aad repeated that if there_„ w 4 lOYinlw who realty _hrikEeed ihif the a . pintinn of On; hon.. Um& sous icetypieekkwosup hors ' per t o t he worssusar sop, that sion ne t t boom nwslo 00 the pereiWe 4,kft1a.,"*4 1 4 4 1 " diwiPiwdoied,__ • te# 4 4 7., tent pet wen. MI exceed to_ro toot ivory opssi ars it, ?lajtcdOD to my tor is large s anng,, c*o k t usiv e cism, el::. es Inc tu di l li es be So an abse ucenecookity for ' its existence t. before aidebbad biAltesto deteent any iossOursa were Arced to reli3ve lot reticules - so d duet sod 9}0444 ;he *die he amittid th em e working . ckssen ought to be ' .lini alj the adgerclet4t, _Of OW% be lit.t.MK IA ben they ha.d no t wo 1! 1 ° tp4 01/AlittioA of ktif 1 0 0 11 sod e rA lik L c * Am*, It becime i e . they to IM well Ai m tw to cb s w i ese sts t 10 1 l*W"hoPe oietwSio, at at. -e**4 The It°4 l ooA l l 1 , 19° 1 ! Or " 4 . 4 YI seemed 'to fancy thl ao , ~ . p iit. . th o totontio . qwwfi c iestre i , produce imincose ir • 110 ' ~ ihe was il= lip um hod ilem; 'the Idea r and thou lab others "coutandy regooted that mg. iy wecialbstam4eg . too the country could not condone to pay the present Meta with the now req uired seventy-these ci existing currency, it by no means followed that the people would be transacted at less expetce to ti , . • . • • , .., ,, •3 0 0.,;kc ‘. • ' "t - ied"'" 6l ol,l rt? 104,,,*44,1a: ; y • • - k. ( 4 •i.-a6iil4# d I I ( a a