Star. — London, England, 1830-03-26 00:00:00

Sir W.W.WYNN presented a petition from certain inhabitants of Denbighshire, complaining of agricultural and manufacturing distress.—Both petitions were read and ordered to be printed. Mr. LAWLEY presented a petition from thegunmakers of Bir mingham, against the abolition of the proof-house for the manufac ture of small inns in Birmingham, and the assumption of tbe manu facture of small arms by government on its own account. Mr. Alderman THOMPSON supported the petition. The ma nufacturers of that district had brought the fabric of small arms to the greatest possible perfection, owing to the competition which was crested, to supply Government on advantageous tenni for the public. Enormous capitals had been ombarked in the manufacture of small arms, and the district lying so very conveniently for a supply of both iron and coals, he thought it was not possible Government itself ever could more effectually, cheaply, or speedily procure a supply, than a body of expert and enterprising competitors in this branch of manufacture, who, from the year 1883 to 1815, had certainly ma nofactured at reduced prices 3,277,000 stand of arms. Mr. LITTLETON stated his opinion, that it would have been a considerable saving to the country had government abolished this' establishment 18 years since. Mr. W. SMITH protested against government attempting, even with respect to articles subservient to purposes of warfare, to in. terfere in any branch of our manufactures. Air. HUME hoped the bon. member for Warwick would bring the question before the house shortly. Mr. PERCEVAL begged the house would suspend its opinion on this subject, which would properly come on along with the Ord nance Estimates, accompanied by a statement from that board as to the propriety of continuing or altering the present system of supply of small arms. Until that period he begged to be allowed to re frain from making allusion to the subject. Mr. Alderman W OOD supported the petition. Mr. DUGDALE could not see, whilst government had. as it was confessed, a million stand of arms on hand, what chance the manufacturers of London or Birmingham had of receiving orders for more. The petition was then read, and ordered to be printed. CRIMINAL LAW. Mr. WARBURTON presented a petition from Bridport, in fa. your of the immediate reform of our criminal law. TOSEIGN COIL Mr. WESTERN presented the petition of the manufacturers of flour in the county of Essex. They prayed, and he himself thought it not unreasonable, that they might be permitted to take foreign corn, now warehoused, out on paying a duty of 4s and giving security that it should not be allowed to come into competition with our own in the supply of the home market • and having ground it and ex ported it as flour to foreign coun tries, or the colonies, retain the coarse parts, consisting of pollard and bran, to be disposed of here for feeding cattle, pigs, and other agricultu ral purposes. He hoped the petitioners might obtain a favourable ear from thaw official persons within whose province lay the regulation of the supply of the home market. Mr. HENRIES observed that the application was not without a precedent, and when the subject of the permission to take out fo reign corn from warehouses in this country to be exported was be. fore the house, the great discussion was upon the grinding clause • and it should be recollected that the opposition to it did not proceed front the government. (hear.) Government entertained the same sentiments still on this part of the question, and if the securities required by the landed interest effectually to prevent foreign corn coming in competition with our own in the home market were of fered, it was not unlikely that a proposal for putting in motion so greet a portion of capital, and creating thereby a proportionate ac tivity in the manufacture of Your would be successful. 111 r. HUME supported the prayer of the petition, which was marred to be printed and to lie on the table. Mr. W. 8111TH presented a petition from Alcock, Esq. of Norwich,respecting the political condition of the Jews.—Ordered to lie on the table. Lord J. RUSSELL presented a petition from the letter-pressmen of t..htffield, praying for a reduction of the duties on telvertise nient4, on the ground that the revenue would be benetitted thereby. Colonel SIBTHOItY spoke in favour of the petition.—lt was ordered to lie on the table. Sir 111. W. RIDLEY presented a petition from Newcastle-upon- Tyne, in favour of a free trade with China. Mr. Alderman WOOD presented a petition from the congrega tion of Protestant Dissenters in Worship-street, against the punish. meet of death. After a short conversation across the table, In which Mr. EA. BOUCHERE, the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, Mr. STAN LEY, Mr. HUME, Sir O. MURRAY, *rid Mr. Secretary PEEL took parts, Mr. LABOUCHERE fixed his motion, as we understood, for Tuesday, the 18th of Ably. Mr. JEPHSON, in the absence of his hon. and learned friend, postponed his motion relative to Trial by Jury in Van Diemen', Land, with an understanding that the subject was to be taken up by government. TAXATION. Mr. P. THO3ISON, in moving for a Select Committee to In quire into the expediency of making a revision of the Taxes, hoped the house would extend some indulgence to the task he had under taken, as he had, for the last few days, been labouring under severe indisposition. It was not his object to submit any pro po sition of a substantive nature to their con s ideration nor did he himself pro. pose any change in the syst em o f taxation. All he desired was to procure the appointment of a Select Committee to inquire what re medy could be applied to the abuses of the system of taxation, if such abuses could be found to exist ; and if they did not exist, to satisfy the people of this country that their complaints and suspi. cions on the subject were unfounded. He approved of what the Government had done; but he thought they had not gone far enough, and he proposed to show how they could more effectually apply the principle of taxation they had adopted, of putting as much as possible into the Treasury, and taking as little as possible out of the pockets of the people. It was a singular circumstance, that the petitions laid on the table of the house, however they dif. fin 111, all other points, agreed on this—that the pressure of taxa tion sees too great and too unequal. The petitions on the table were all to dist effect. He was not one who would yield to popular opt. nion, where it was not founded in justice ; but this opinion was founded in justice. The hon. member fur &sex had contended, in the late important debates, that because the country bore tax ation during the war, it must be able to bear It durine the peace. During the war, however, we were able to bear it. There was at that time a spring given to our industry, almost till then un known. We enjoyed at that time a monopoly of the commerce of the world. Nut only did our capital not migrate into other countries, but the capital of other countries Sowed in upon us. But when peace came the whole face of things was changed. NV, had no longer then our own prices. We were obliged to follow the prices of other countries. Not only did we hue the capita! of other countri es . but our own capital migrated, and our ainl industry also sought more lucrative employment elsewhere. C'ri'er these altered circumstances, to what were we to look for the means of enabling us to compete with the foreigner ? To a re• doe' ion of wages of profits, or of taxation ? Wages were already at adnimunt. P;otits were exceedingly low. It was only therefore to a reduction of taxation that we could look for relief. If we did not diminish the taxation on productive industry, we should lose all the advantages which we derived from our peculiar positions from our large eipital, and from the superior ingenuity and perseverance of our workmen and manufacturers. But was this merely a specu lative notion? Had not the good erect of a reduetiun of taxation been already experienced in other countries as well as "err own ? L et the 'house look back at the history of the world. Ler them read that admirable work, " La Michessetle la Holland," by 31. Lozac. They would there see the manner in which an er roneous taxation affected that country. Holland was formerly situated nearly as we were. It had a large debt ; and although it had not a numerous poor, yet their place was supplied in the public expenditure by the necessity of keeping up the dykes. So great was th e anxit ty of the Dutch government to acquire information on this imp“rtan: stihjec., that various commissions were appointed for the txpreii. purpose; . ne of the most interesting reports front which sae that ut,,de by a commission appointed in 1761. in the reign of William IV. Hut it was conteuded that we had entered into con tracts "Aim must be maintained, that we niust preserve our good, faith. Ile was as ready as any n.an to fulfil the public engage ments. and to keep up whatever establishments were necessary' for the dignity, honour, and safety of the country. It was not so na•li to the amount of taxation as to the incidents that he ob. and lie h a d quote d a Dutch writer—he might quote French spanioi. Suay, I urgot, and other welters altdichired that the %uttering under whic!i the commercial and manufacturing Clarinet at Franc: laboured arose from the evils of uric lased re laced taxation. said that in his time for to raise thirty million s r the public . Tsar‘ 415 C h undred millions were t a k e n f rom t h e poc k ets o f t h e peop l e. got stated that the made on which ten millions were expe n ded cost . the people forty millions. (Hem, heir, hear.) In the de. I" . ,!'" in .g Watt of Spain that decline was attributed by thy best _l?at.nsh writer s to the most infamous impost which was wn'•••1 'awl? ever laid fel or the manne r any Pe" of levying taxes, Adam Smith had the fUllowlng pas- and tax ought . to be so contrived as both to take out, and . keep out, ot the pocket- of the people ea little as possible, over an t atone a I.at it brings into die public treasury of the state. A tax may tither tak e out or keep out of the pockets of the people a great , _ . d in eal more than it brings into the public treasury in-the four numberfollowingo _ways : —Firm, the levying of it may require a greater car f officers, whose salaries may .eat up the greater pert the prodoce of the tax, upon h e perquisite° an si P ne e "ether additional tax upon 'the people. Secondly, t ?ay Obstru ct the industry of the people, and diecouragi them loin apping to certain branches -of 'business which raght.'give ..„^lintenance and employment ' to gnat' multitudes. While it Wll.Ol e the people to pay, it inter thee-diminish, a. perhaps •det r", souse the funds which might endble'etierd mere' t autly-t o ' " kt• Thirdly ; by the torfeiturms and the- perialtirs'which those aofortunate Individuals blear who attempt unsuccessfully to evade the tax, it may frequently ruin them, and thereby put an end to the benefit which the community might have received hem the employment of their capitals. FouWily, by subjecting the people to the frequent visite and the *dims examination of the tax.gatherer, it may expose them to much unnecessary trouble, vexation, and oppression ; and though vexation is not, strictly speaking, expense, it is certainly equivalent to the expense at which every man would be willing to redeem himself from it." Let the house look at the history of our existing taxation, and see how closely it agreed in many respects with the description of that kind of taxation which Adam Smith thus deprecated. In the year 1793 the revenue was only seventeen millions. That amount was carried, by successive taxation., up to seventy millions. It would be said by some that this took place under the administration of Mr. Pitt. But if Mr. Pitt were now living, he (3lr. Thomson) would call upon him, in support of his principle ; for it was a prin. ciple which Mr. Pitt always advocated, and in the early part of his life acted upon. Mr. Pitt might have been driven by the necessities of the war to taxation; but the principles which he (Mr. T.) was now maintaining, was to be found in the two great measures upon which principally the fame of Mr. Pitt was founded the Comma. tation Act, and the treaty of commerce with France. If Mr. Pitt allowed himself to be hurried on in the career of taxation by the events of a war which he every year thought was drawing to a close, it was not wonderful that others should follow his ex. ample. But it was reserved for Mr. Vansittart to show the soundness of Swift's maxim, that the arithmetic of the Exche. quer was not like the arithmetic of common life. He found no Isiah with Mr. Vansittart or with the parliament. It was net difficult to believe that a parliament. which had voted eft sl time when paper was in a state of great depreciation, that spend note and a shilling were equivalent to a guinea, would WU no hesitation in voting anything else. He should be obliged, in what he had to state to the house, to enter into details of figures, which he trusted the house would pardon. He would divide the taxes of the country into two branches. First, those taxes which, pressing on the raw material, were injurious to our manufacturers, and, therefore, required revision ; and, secondly, the class of taxes which was the principal object of his motion, and to which he wished to call the particular attention of the house; taxes far too high in their amount, and a great reduction in which would, he was con. yinced, be followed by no diminution whatever in their predates. It was quite astonishing to see the manner in which, in the days to which he had lately been alluding, taxation was treated. The legislature seemed to be playing tricks with them, trans. posing them, and drawing out first one card, and then anodise. The duty on tobacco in (heat Britain had, in the course of thirty. nine years, from 1789 to 1828, been changed three times. Ilavinn been advanced from 360 per cent. to 1,200 per cent it was after. wards brought down to 200 per cent. In Ireland the same duty had been changed ten times. The duties on British spirits and gin had, in the course of thirty years, been changed eleven times, and had been raised 300 per cent. The duties on sugar had been chaged seventeen times. The duty on tea had been changed seven times. The duty on glass had been changed five times, and had been raised 500 per cent. He came now to examine some of the taxes which pressed most heavily on the manufacturing and other interests. And, first, there was the timber duty; the amount of that duty was 1,630,000/. He knew that it was a duty which involved political as well as financial considerations • but to him it appeared most extraordinary and absurd on the part of the legislature to make the people of this country pay so highly for bad timber, when they might have good at so much less a rate. and, he was persuaded, without any injuty to the revenue, by the admission of timber from the Baltic. (Hear.) This was one of the blessings which we owed to 111 r Vansittart. In the year 1810, when the act imposing that duty passed, 428,000 tuns of British shipping were employed in the Baltic trade, , being little less than one fourth of the British corn menial navy. He would not, however, dwell long on this point ; because, as he had already observed, it was mixed up with political consideration. Such was not the case with the next,which was purely financial—the hemp duty. The duty on hemp amo u nt e d t o 70,0001. being 10 per cent. on the value of the article. If any tax in the whole list of taxation ought to be remitted, it was merely this. Hemp was a material which entered into the composition of numerous products affecting our greatest manufacturing interest. The next article to which he should advert was soap. The gross revenue of soap was 1.374 0001. the net revenue 1,203,000/. The duty on hard soap was threepence a pound ; but it was not merely the amount of the duty. the regulations respecting the manufacture of it were most absurd and Injurious. There were seven different ways of collecting the duty on soap, which must give rise necessarily to frauds. He knew two houses which were carrying on the trade upon the capital of the country. There was a drawback on soap sent to Ireland, and the manufacturers in Liverpool, who were not called upon for the duty fur six weeks, received the drawback immediately, and upon this drawback actually carried on the trade. A duty of 70 per cent. would be more productive than one of 100 per cent. The duty on barilla was too high. It was more than cent. per mut These were trifles, but not so the next.duty, that on seaborne coals. However defensible it might have been, when coals were used pets. cipally for fire, it was not so now, when the article was so much used in manufactures. The result of it was to drive manufactures inland. This was the first tax that should be repealed. 'Thom were many other taxes that might be done away with with adorn. tage. He should now come to the taxmen glass, paper, and printed calicoes, the gram amount of which was 933,0001. and the net amount 813,0001. only. The duty on Blass was raised by Mr. Van. sittart. In 1794 the duty was low, and the consumption at home was 87,000 weight; when the duty was raised it fell to 28,000 weight In 1827 the duty was again lowered, and the conaump. tion, increased to 68,000 weight; at present the consumption, with all the increase of luXury, was only what it was in 1794. In the act there were not less than twenty-four clauses, all moss in. convenient to the manufacturer. The duty on flint glass was per lb. cent per cent. The duty was laid either when the glass was turned out of the pan, or after. The duty, before it was turned out, was three-pence a pound, and six-pence after, as it gained in weight about 60 per cent. The cost of the Excise, he was informed, was 26 per cent. in addition to the duty of 100 per cent. lie was told, by an intelligent manufacturer, that were it not for the Excise and the mat duty, he could compete, in any market of Europe, with foreign manufacturers. The cosec. quence of this state of things was, that English manufacturers were prevent' d from making experiments to improve the manufacture, and to produce colours, red for instance, which were most desired. He had no doubt that If the tax were reduced, the consumption would be greatly increased, and the revenue not at all diminished. He should new come to the article of paper. The net produce of the tax was 065,00 W. Would the house believe that there were Epenalties on the manufacturers amounting to 100,0001. Th e xcise officers might enter their premises, as he was informed by a constituent of his own, day or night, whenever they pleased.-- He had two letters on the subject from very intelligent men.—[ Here the hon. member read extracts from those letters, mentioning in de tail various inconveniences to which manufacturers were subjected in their operations by the law as it at present stood, the excise officers having a right, at any time, to enter the premises, to inspect the labels, for one of which, If it happened to be lost or mislaid ' a penalty of one hundred pounds wait incurred. It was also sta ted that, in consequence of thesedifficulties and inconveniences the pope manufacture was in a considerable measure migrating from this ems. try.]—The next tax to which he should come was that on printed, calicoes, a subject to which the member for Montrose (Mr. Hume), whom he did nut now see in his place--(a laugh), had upon a for mer occasion, drawn the attention of the house. The duty raised on printed eallicoes was 699,0001. a sum not very considerable it was true, but the principle was bad, for the duty vas ohm greater than the value of the article itself. But the great objection to the tax was its inequality. It was charged at Sid. the square yard. Tina it pressed upon she poor, and not upon the rich. The whole soma of these three taxes was 2,626,000/. He might be told that sea a substitute must be found if these taxes were sedum'. He was of opinion that the reduction might be met by a lessening of the public establishments. There were other ways also by which the deficiency might be made up. A tax upon the transfer of personal, as well as upon that of land was recommended by some, and in this way the deficiency might met ; but upon that he would give noopinise. He did not hesitate to say, that he was favourably disposed so I pin of taxation which, they were informed, had been lately under Ai consideration of government, but be would now enter upon the see. ject. There were five branches of taxation. sugar, tea, forelon 'wines, 'plats, and tobacco, from which, be f e lt confident, if •Ibe taxes were reduced, sufficient resourses would arise, by increase of coniumption. to meet any deficiency of income arising from the op. peal et' the other taxes. These five branches of revenue producedisn' gether upwards of 16,000,0001. If they could reduce any of timu l withobt arty reduction of income, as he thought they might, it would confer upon the public a most important benefit, without any injury to the Excuer. There was no axiom more true than this, that to tens of taxation two and two did not always make four; bat anther eton s teary, did not frequently nuke even one. In proof of this, be might confidently refer to the whole history of their taxation, both in Greet Britain and Ireland, for many years beck. " One Awe alone was sufficient to prove that a reduction of tams did not al, ways produce an equal reduction of income. Though 9,100,0001. of taxed had been'mken off various articles since the termination Of the war, the gross amount now arising from them am less by a aunt only 3;700,000. If they proceeded further, upon a like prinelpb, they might naturally expect like results. The Gest *neck In thud live branches of taxation, to which he should. draw the attention of the hou.e, sou foreign wine. A century bark the consumption . of !Boolean: wine in this infantry war 14.000 gallons.- and* woo tw* ammely 1,400. The right hots, gentleman OM Usancalloe of the LiCtleqUetYllhOok hi* head at this, as if he 4o bled the earreetnesi, Of his statement, but he did.mot speak •without asithority. It . J 791, and from that to 1793, Aire &maga sonsurnpriee of Bor.' dams wine was 27,000 gallons a year and of all the ether sere me. *Me; 7,11,811911 stations r hi kel3.''tr itelrOMi dietZto , iskatloo per cent. the consumption fell to 38,000 galvms'' ease holbei only MOON ; in 1822 the duty was lowered from 164. sd. ti Ids. sd. and the consumption increased to 171,000 gallons; be. twain 1791 and 1822 there was a falling of in the consumption of all foreign wines in Great Britain, from 7,160.000 to 5.000,0811 gallons, and though the duty was raised 350 per cent. the in. crease in the revenue was nor more than 70 per cent. Nothing could more clearly prove that heavy taxes were impolitic. Tbey diminished consumption, and deprived the people of comforts and luxuries, without any thing like an equivalent advantage to the revenue. The duty on wines was again reduced by the late Chan cellor of the Exchequer, and the consequence was an increased con sumption ; but, even now, the consumption notwithstaiffing the rat increase of population, only equalled the consumption of 1791. The ease was similar In Ireland; there the duty was raised 500 per cent. but the consequent income of revenue was no more than 30 per rent. By a further reduction of the duty on wine*, he thought it probable that the revenue might be raised six per cent. If it were brought down to 3a. the gallon, he felt confident that the revenue would be increased, and both countries, France and Great Britain derive substantial and mutual benefits from the measure, a more extended market being opened for those articles which each country would give in exchange for the produce of the other. He moved the treaty with Portugal would no longer stand in the way of such an arrangement; and that, for the purpose of securing commercial advantages to a comparatively distant country, they would not con. tinue to oppose obstacles to a more tree intercourse with a neighbouring and friendly nation. The next article he should come to was to. bscco, one in general use, essential to the comforts of the lower claws, and therefore most materially affecting their interests. When the duty stood at la 3d. a pound, the consumption in Great Britain was 10,972,00015. The duty was raised to 2s. 2d. and the consumption decreased. In 1824 the duty was doubled. The consumption was 13,000,0001 b. and the revenue only 2,600,0001. though if it had kept pace with the increase of duty, it should have been 3,000,0001. In 1825 the duty was. reduced to 3s. The consumption in consequence was 14,704.000, and the revenue 2,200.0001. so that, though the duty was reduced one-fourth, the falling off in the revenue was only 400,0001. The cue of Ireland with respect to the article of tobacco was still more strong. For some year's, from 1794, the duty was &I. and the consumption 7,500,0001 b. When the . duty was subsequently raised to 4s. the consumption fell to 2,582,000, little more than one fourth of that at which it stood before. The duty was reduced in •1025, and the consumption increased to about 5,000,0001 b. It was absurd to suppose that Ireland, in 1794, with a poptils. don of about three millions, consumed 7,500,00016. of tobacco, while now, with a populaion of seven or eight millions, she did not consume nearly so much. The article, therefore, must be supplied by illegal means. Indeed, it was in evidence that smug. gling in tobacco was carried on to a great extent both in Ireland and Scotland, and it was an article whith afforded great facilities for the purpose. The next thing he should come to was Foreign spirits, and first Foreign gin. By a paper laid upon the table it appeared that, on an average, from 1773 to 1782, the consumption was 644,0001 b. the duty being 10s. The duty was subsequently rot duced to ss. and there were imported 2,000,000 gallons of gin, and an equal quantity of rum. Itrhen the duty was subsequently raised, it was paid only on 900,090 of Foreign spirits of all kinds, and on 2,781,000 gallons of rum. From the year 1822 to 1825 the con sumption of rum was 2,737,000 gallons, and, with the increase of duty which then took place, the whole amount of duty received, in each year, was only 1,504,i001. From 1826 to 1828 the duty was reduced, and the revenue was nearly equal to what it was under the double duty. At this time too there was no falling offin the consump. tion of British spirits, and the revenue amounted to 3,123,0001. being an increase of 150,0001. In 1821 the spirits raised in Scotland was 2,200.000 gallons, and the duty, at ss. the gallon, 727,0001. When the duty was afterwards seduced to its. the consumption was proper.. tionally increased, so that the duty received was 009,0001. In Ireland, at the same perisd, the number of gallons which paid duty was 2,649,000. the revenue being 9/2,000L The consumption, when the duty was reduced, rose to 9,937,000, and the revenue to t:.227,0001. so that there was, on the whole, an increase of revenue produced by a decrease of duty. It might be said that this was a result not at all to be desired, and he might be told that the use of ardent spirits led to immorality ; and that therefore it was the duty of • wise and prudent legislature to oppose difficulties in the way of their con sumption. It appeared to bin. that, however the abuse of spirits, or any other article of consumption, might be deplored, nothing could be more absurd than to interfere by legal enactment with the habits of the people. In proof of this he might refer to what took place in 1746, when very heavy penalties were imposed on persons who dealt in gin, yet, in the face of these penalties, 600,000 gallon, were consumed in London alone. If the duty on tobacco and spi rits was reduced, it would render unnecessary the preventive eyes tem, which cost the country a very considerable sum. Us amid Wit h to now come to the tax on sugar and tea. With to the first, he could have little to say, after the very able of his tight hos. friend, the member for Inverness - shire ( r. C. Grant). It peared fo him that it was a duty incumbent on them to do sottsM to assist the West India interest. The other article to be noticed woo l tea. Upon this subject some alteration was absolutely necessary; ass only for the benefit of the public, but for the benefit of the revenues Our present consumption was now little more than than it was two*. years ago, owing to the vast increase of the duty. If the duty were lessened we should have a better article, and googillog Ito a great extent would be prevented. He merely Oki to _kr grounds for the appointment of a committee for inquiry,ondi be had I no doubt that a general reduction on tobacco, foreign *its, aid teas, would be beneficial to the country. The stamps wpm its pot. licks, insurances, newspapers, and advertisements, if relooll, woad so doubt prove beneficial to the revenue. Sea policies Milan in the course of a few years, owing to the rate of insurance, sod the Des suit was that they were effectd in the United States, Gamey, and Holland. The fire insurance in this country, was osmanoo risks, one shilling and sixpence, while the duty to govennteslit was titres shillings. : his atone prevented the insurance of posgerly, and led to the most serious Losses. Since 1816 the income of insurance was only 16,0001. although the increase of papacy bad been so immense. lie was happy to come to the last article, 01M. 9 the duty upon newspapess,and he was satisfied, if the duty were reduced one penny, the revenue would greatly increase. The returns to Parliament chewed 324 newspapers in the United Kingdom—the' total consumption of newspapers was above 17 millions; while in the Vaned States there were 800 newspapers, making a total of five to owe greater than those in England. In France the circulation =was seventy thousand against thirty -four thousand In Eng- ' With the reduction of stamps, them should also be a re daction of the duties upon adveriisements. There were ten millions el .odvertimementx in the United States, and in England there wan tine-tenth less ; whams, if the duty were reduced, the amount of maws would be considerably increased. He had now gone 6.'840 the list of taxes which he would be glad to see done away, sod Wien, of a less objectionable nature, substituted for them. His object was to have • careful examination of those taxes, and he trusted no one would object to grant his motion. He had no want of confidence in his majesty's ministers; on the contruy, his pat abject was to lend a greater degree of effect to the wishes and the views of government. Mary interests were concerned in this subject, and therefore a committee would be the best means of Nameiling and and adjusting them. He knew not the die.' , pukka of his majesty's government ; but whatever their decision night be, be trusted the house would vote for his motion. Here was a defined proposition, and he would appeal to all those who had presented petitions from the people, no matter on which tide of the house, to enter into that inquiry which might relieve the die. Inmaes of the country, and, by so doing they would be doing justice 'ID their own characters and the best interests of the notion. The him. member concluded by moving for the appointment of a select INnuiniteise re Inquire into the present state of taxation, with a view' le diminish those taxes which press most heavily upon the labour *and productive classes of the people, witbout any diminution of 'the news of snpporting the necessary revenue, and keeping tiuth with the public creditor. ?he motion being seconded, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER observed, that althaegh he agreed with many parts of the speech of the honourable member, yet, notwithstanding that concurrence, he still felt it to be his imperative duty to resist the motion.—{Hear, bear, bear.)—Hs was ono of those who always thought. it most advisable to. Feist the t h e 5. , --.. with 0- se possible disadv botoseary supplies for . . biate ebb the least p. Avantage Weise public, and that taxes should be eolevied as to bear with the lost possible weight upon the productive industry of the country.- 1 , Ilt was the duty of Government to relieve the people from taxes In limy shape they weld ; but in a country where taxation existed . did here, and where it was absolutely to impose th em , house should remember that the necessities of the moment led such an meant as, in ordinary circumstances, would never have resorted to. The Government coesidered it their duty to do d .',2kcilu ld 'irCi i .Tieedww`i i tT,e;h7rktuiceeveZe b rfnn j cu h ryo f totaztlet i ° g Z imams of the country. If the motion acre agreed to, it produce a bad Impression upon the public mind, because it appose as if the object were to promote particulai rather than the public good. In his situation he had apponunities of knowing the danger of preliminary answers thogevevnasent before any general arrangement was announced; they would lead to the tweet of trade, idle and minims spiculstions would be entered into borsht hon. members daily represented Yee. partitnier eentlition, the wanftaad -wishes of their ontstittscots i end ilia his official capacity be had ( OM then decisive, total suspension of lisle wadi ' - the - - " - ppm' et all the tax, .could nor , *ars: Another great difficulty reseimustwk& by the hereseembee. _ *flaw Irbickfrpr. tabe,.ampalimi .4 IPlift whore stated how the —.Pni., was so b e i spp ther ntlesioll of certain: duties esnatessisieneaso 7 "=l rester consumption of the ankles ' drould know. that in the ankles . . warn, to sap the least of te, a very hazardous experiment, and until It was shown morediadoctir WU-the public credit could be maintained, the recommendation ot tib• bon- member should not be yielded to. To take this subject in another point of view,be would ask what was there in the conduct of the government as so the reduction of taxation, which should take that duty out of their hands, and transter it to a committee? Had the government shown any indisposition to reduce the taxes on the labouring cheeses ? Had they not, in fact, been forward in selecting those for diminution which all agreed were prominently marked for reduction ? It was said by some that they bed gone beyond the limits of sound dhicretion ; but, so far from that being the case—so far were they from neglecting their ditty. that he could confidently plead not guilty to the charge. He thotight it was as clear as.elay that if Government had rot gone to the fell extent of reduction, it was only because they could go no farther. (Hear, hear.) Feeling that the Government ha not neglected thee duty—feeling that they had afforded redress to the utmost extent— and considering the repeal of such taxes as the circumstances of :he country would most beneficially permit, the Government could tot abandon their proper duty, and of course he could not concur in the proposal for the appointment of a committee. To conclude the few observations he had made. he would only add, that it would be an abdication of the duty of Government, if they had not determined to resist the motion of the lion. member. (Hear, hear.) Mr. BANKES said that he did not wish the government to ab dicate its proper functions, and devolve them upon a committee ; but. nevertheless, he was an advocate for inquiry. The public credit should be maintained, but in his view that could not be done with out a commutation of taxes, which could be best investigated by committee. Ile wished as far uhe could to spare the poor, and throw the burden upon the opukrt--and. in saying so. he meant that a propetty.tax should be levied—and the sooner it was done the better tor the benefit of the country. He believed that nets of property would be benefited by such a tax, although apparent') it might do them injury. On these grounds he would give his sup port to the motion. Mr. ROBINSON said he would support the motion, althougl. he dilEred Mum his hon. friend as 111 the subjects upon which tie proposed a reduction of duties. lie would not. tOr instarce, reduce the duties on French wines. tor to France we did not export the on.. . fourth of what was sent to Portugal. 31r. 31ABERLV said the appointment of a committee was ne cessary, in order to carry into effect what the government said it was absolutely necessary to do. He wished to relieve distress by a reduction of the public expenditure, the only legitimate mode of ' effecting it. He could not concur in die recommendation of a pro. perry tax in the time of peace, because, though it might be neces sary in a time of war, if it existed during a of peace the pub would be the less able to bear such a burden. Mr. BAltlNti did not dery that on some articles a redtiction of taxation would prove beneficial, such as sugar, wine, &e. but still he c mid not consent without any surplus revenue, to make any hazardous experiment. He could not agree that landed . .property in its transmission should be visited with a l a r g e statitti duty, for it was already sufficiently buttheried. The honourable member for Dorsetshire met the question boldly, and suggested a property tax ; but he considered such a tax unsuited to this country except in the emergency of a war. It was in fuct the most opines. sive mode of taxation which could he devima in a civilised country. A property tax would also increase rather than lessen the absentees, and even to that extent it was highly undesirable. In fact, it nett r could be imposed 'without the most injurious effects in a time of (Hear.) They had of necessity an income to produce, and peaces not see how it was to be raised without machinery. 't he argument for taking away the coast blockade could not be sus tained. If they took away the Excise officers and reduced the clinks it would not prevent smuggling. The country would be inundated with articles now bearing small duties. General GASCOVNE said this was a motion to abrogate tie duties of his majesty's government, and to d legate those duties for which ministers only were responsible, to a committee. The house was not aware of the danger to which they were exposed. A pro perty tax had been recommended, and if ministers were out-voted they might corns down to-morrow and propose an income tax. When he saw persons who on a former occasion opposed an income tax stand forward on that occasion the advocates of such a taxes (No, no, ) — it exceeded in his opinion all the inconsistency of the preseninconsistent times. Honourable members who supported the motion had made up their minds to a property tax.—(No, no.) In the present state of agricultural distress, he would say a tax upon properry . derived from land could not be paid. Mr. WARBURTON, condemning former measures, brought forward by men of integrity, found himself disposed to vote for the motion of his hon. friend. With respect toe property tax he should say nothing. It would be premature to discuss a question which was for the considersion of the committee. Lord ALTHORP—With resixct to the argument that the appointment of a committee would probably introduce a property tax, the noble lord did not think that would be the necessary cone. =lf the question of a property tax were regularly argued, he say, that relieving the suffering part of the country from taxation by the application of a property tax would be beneficial. He had formerly taken a different view of the question, but he thought now if 10 per cent. was imposed on laud that the land. owners would gain by the arrangement. The state of distress was now so great that nothing was to be gained by land. The noble lord was satisfied the state of the country was using to the arranged state of taxation. The country could bear more than it sustained at present, but the badly arranged taxation interfering with the manufacturer and the working classes, produced all the evils under which they suffered. The noble lord supported the motion. Dlr. BERRIES said it was a two-fold motion—first a Budget, and secondly, an inquisition into all the scheme of our taxation, to be carried on by a Committee. It had been considered by many honourable members an indirect substitution of a Property Tax, in lieu of many taxes which the honourable mover did not approve.— This Budget had been censured in severe terms. The hupourahle member for Callingtod had called It a profligate motion. The ho nourable member for Dorset had taken the earliest opportunity of reprobating the tenure of this Budget. They could DOS have a more miserable expedient than that of having recourse to successive loans and votes of credit.—(Hear.}.—lt was only yesterday that a deputation waited on him fur the reduction of the duties upon a particular trade, and they said on that occasion, whatever you do let it not be known until it is done. If you sulky your intention to transpire you will stop the trade. In the same man. ner would the proceedings of a select committee operate upon every trade; in short, a committee could not be justified in taking the sub ject out of the hands of government. He thought perhaps that it would be beneficial to remove the pressure of taxation front one part of the community to another, but that did not prove that it was then the proper time to adopt a propery.tax. Sir H. PARNELL adverted to the proceedings in the Finance Committee, and thought that the Committee had objected to inquiry into certain parts of the revenue ; and he called upon the honour. able member for Callington to look to what the manufacturers were doing in the Netherlands, and decide whether the manufacturers under the present state of taxation could compete with foreigners. The hon. Baronet recommended the arrangement of the wholeof the Imes in a Committee, and thereby see what taxes might be thrown overboard. If the House thought proper to relieve industry .to the amount of 2,600.000 L meats might be resorted to, without a pro , peety tax. He had no ejection to a well.regulated property tax, but there was no occashirs for it. They might reduce the civil rents, and the army and navy, wWch would raise a sum to render a property tax unneerssary. Mr. Secretary PEEL said the 'propos! wan certainly one which guild appear for the first time in the annals of perlisnrent. The 'potion was that a select committee be appointed for the' porpoie of revising and considering the wltele system of taxation.' That house had the power to inform itself of every tax, soel if they had such a power, his advice was to reserve the pentiession of il(berar, bear, hear.) The right honourable gentlemen' &st yled the house to rely upon its united strength for the attainmeot edr an important question, and not 'delegate its porter to a 'select cousmitttee. (Hear.) He should give no opinion on a propetLe tax. but he advised gentlemen not to consent to give up the multi& • to a select committee. They ought to reflect That the governMilii 'Res re. spossible for their memuren,and that thegovernment would 1)e screened under & select committee. Every gentleman ought toconsider that no one had stated in clear terms how a property tax was to be ippfia. If then wereany Irish members present, they would feel. Olt t lrelated bad hitherto been no party in a property tax. The appointment of twenty i one prisons would make them the most inilmetant men in A K country. They would have a power which he. for one,suld sot consent to give to any men.' The governm e n t WAS bound' to op pose the motion. He would never • consent to remain a`noillittal officer of the crown for the purpu,e of registering, tbi ediepi of a committee.— (Hear ) Mr. BRIGHT opposed the motion. He would never tonaret to 'pave that roo , t abtomipable tax, the roperty ? tax, reacted. Mr. MIJSKION said if the appointment of a committee under the cheumstances stated Was untionstoutior.aktte for ooe - ohotifd'op., pose it. The right hon. gentleman tootended that the stuns powersproposed to be given to this committeehid been given to the mi n-duet: on trade, and other committees of inquiry ; he data 'truth or expect that the Wawa of the committee 'Moult( beraken . oo. the ground upon which the house would proceed, either to inditee or to impose _razes. Alt lw visjbeel mos. that the house and the c oun try elicit try _ Nh+Slill of II 1t• tlicuy cowl such abuse satisfy the dons on tl tiovemmet enough, at apply the much as p out of the that the pe ft/CCM al tion wal. t( all to that nion, whe founded it in the lot ation &it During th that time known. of the wo countries, But whet We had follow tt capita! Ail and Unties th the mean! diaf ion id plinimu to a rldUe 1101 Bimini the advant our large • of our am lative no taxation our own Ler them by 31. Li roneous situated had not a txpenditu the :mai( t iniportan: express was that t tract s ro,t faith. If °tents, ar the digni nokli to jected. and span i the sulteri ot Franc: dully yft venue a h 'forgot st cost the p dining at Spanish taiPIY ev of the ma sage and keep and ahoy tax may great dea following number to the I mpose tray dust from a p p nJ sin renal ablil lt y ti I'l soon. WO bu. .1. - . . .. ada copse t 1 ha bed s ine deg* decisive u • nwell, should have UK bait Odle Infuenuidpi,o . hich mold pptfaiL be to a et tide would be the weal. An inquiry into the elicited by dick inveetiptions. /hi these reitsoni he iboold eel! 1. teas" .could nate •osodocietl whims enxelderabie for the rnntion. her sleet do cil i t y a nd would arise in the Nurse tibl C. 8= said that le 110 i big_ "pivot thivpotipn, he I, the hommeimbet• ileemleeed him *We &tan should tuti ' - iiiionifitiidy it& ?fie !natio& w itch be :A- -friotosPl 11t.be.J•1 0414 at leileulad , .1 0111 b* tea . witted tithe bouseos,ol•l night. 114.1 , 44;thes props* a Ir. et the . deficiency was to lisapplied. ,Be a tilt this Amo d io', foe a imptsittti p 4 o p s pr.3out . here. ithe,tkeal; 4pc- f caulks duties oterbiseesprneate for the loam by the A k iiije es limo ireio to be*abandoXed, &ski ption of the ankles taxed : bet the tint+. ortiltaiinn eßd t sooppitgon. . hat In the articles Which he *ld ealled.. lo ,..khet ! OM .ft 4.lhT..mtlt)" upon thmeitteAtilhe pr ithaalsee a orithaoltraillionaidirellesse.• M. . o f l b * Ute wet. t 9 k cuvelided i it f a f~ } ,' I,