Star. — London, England, 1820-05-05 00:00:00

PARLIAMENTARI' PROCEEDINGS. HOUSE OF LORDS, MAY 4. Lord; F.r.TXINZ, CaEw', EGALMONI, and MONTAGIUT, took the nacho. ..On the motion of Lord SHAFTESBURY, the Standing Orders relative to sa,pertkil, and all pro ceedings in regard to Private Bills, Petitions relating to the same, and evidence thereon in the lest Sessions were allowed to he resumed at the same stage, as if no dissolution of ParEa nvet had taken placc. Lord KI NC; rose to submit a motion relative to the Silver Currency. His Lordship stated, that the market price of Silver was under the Mint price. This was a proof that the currency was raised in value above the Mint standard. The only rule for forming an estimate of the value of the currency, was by the precious metals. The Bank gave £3. 17$. laid. or £3. 18s. for Cold, but it did not buy Silver. If, therefore, in regard to the metal which it did not buy, the market price was under the Nita price, there was a different ratio of value established in the later case from the former. The same thing happened in thc• year 1816; the currency was then raised beyond its proper value. The ,rice of Gold was then £3. 18s. and the market price of Silver w.,s under the Mint price. The Cold beieg bought at a stated price by the Bank, was differently circum stanced from the other precious metal, the market price of which. at present, sheaved that the currency was raised n per cent. beyond its proper value. The Noble Lord concluded by r ovine, " That there be laid before the House an Account of the market price of Silver," which was agreed to. The Marquis cf LANSDOWNE informed the House, that Isis Noble Friend (Lord Ib.lland) who had given notice of his intention to present a l'i.ti;ism from the inferior Clergy of the Diocese of Exeter, and to make a !notion thereon, was indis posed, and was apprehensive that he would not be able to bring on the subject on Friday, the day fur which their Lordships bad been summoned. Ile wished, therefore, with their Lord ships' have, to postpone the notice until some day in the course of the next week, when be hoped his Noble Friend would be able to atteLd. The Bishop of LA NDAFF regretted the cause of the post pournu•nt of the motion, and intimated that his Right Rev. Friend (the Bishop of Exeter) was anxious that it should come on as soon as possible. On the motion of the Marquis of LANSDOWN, the Order for summoning their Lordships for to-morrow was then dis charged, and renewed for that day se'nnight. CIVIL LIST. The M.uq'tis of LANSDOWNE said, that seeing a Noble Earl (Liverpool) in his place, he would take that opportunity of asking him, in reference to that part of his Majesty's Speech which related to the Civil List, whether it was the intention of his Ma jesty's Ministers to appoint ts Committee, to take into consideration the several subjects contained in the Civil List, and to furnish the House with the neces sary information thereon ? The II .d of LIVERPOOL said, that it was not the intention to move for a Committee upon the sabject, as there was information to come before the House which had been furnished in the year 1816, and which was sufficiently full and ample to allow a complete discussion of the subject. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE observed, that upon the occasion adverted to by the Noble Earl, as on other similar occasions, it had been staled by nisters that the commencement of a new reign would be the proper time for sifting the principle and de tail of the while au angements. The Minister at that time had said so ; and it had been before so stated by Mr. Perceval ; and under that view of the case, Parliament had been then satisfied with a less perfect investigation of the subject than it would otherwise have insisted on. The Noble Lord had beard with great pleasure the declaration on the sub ject, contained in the Speech from the Throne ; but although it did great honour to his Majesty's personal feelings, it did not relieve Parliament from its duty, when called upon to arrange the Civil List, to in quire into the grounds on which its arrangements were to be established. He judged it necessary, at leas, to call for the printing of the former accounts, and the addition cf what further information might be found necessary. He would not then offer iris opinions on the subject in detail, but he would say, that the principle of economy, at all times to be observed', was then absolutely indispensable. The Noble Lord said, there was another principle of great importance, and that was such an arrangement of the Civil List as would ascertain what portion was collected for the maintenance and support of the Crown and Royal Family, and what for National purposes. The latter was the principle professed to be acted upon in the year 1816, but it was not then earriLoi far enough. To arrange the Civil List so as to separate the expenditure under the immediate di rection and controul of the King and Royal Family from that which related to objects of a National and variable nature, would be the most satisfactory and simplest course. It would, in that case, be proper to throw upon the Consolidated Fund everything Merely public or contingent, leaving to the King whatever was requisite to support the dignity of the Crown, and leaving to the Public all that was liable • to uncertainty and fluctuation. He repeated, that he did not then mean to go into detail on the subject ; he only wished, in a general manner, to show how the, matter might be simplified—for instance, it was no advantage that the allowances to the Judges in the Courts of Law, and the salaries to Foreign Ministers, should be mixed up with the expenditures of the Royal Family. The whole of the expenditure ought to be divided into that for the support of the Crown and Royal Family, into that for the maintenance of the Public Officers, and into what was ill its nature variable and contingent. Such a disposition would establish a more intelligible and useful mode of making up the public accounts. He concluded by rn. , ving—" That the information contained in the ito.port of the year 1816 be printed, and that the Mouse be furnished with an estimate of the fatale p - robable and annual charges of the Civil List." Lord LIVERPOOL said, that at no time, upon the cominencement of a new reign, was it the cus tom of Parliament, when granting what was re quired for the support of the dignity of the Crown, whether it did so by permanent or temporary reve nues, or by a specific Civil List, to proceed upon a Committee of Itn : uiry. Ile would not, however, take upon him to deter:Mon whether our ancestral were right or wrong in their conduct on this topic, but he might fairly say, that as a complete investi sation had been entered int.., not four years since, npon this subject, it was not necessary at present to over the same ground again. Parliament had, at that time, made its arrangements in accordance :he Reports cf Committees of both Houses; the info! :nation obtained from which, was therkautficient for the intended arrangements. In 1816, the object of tlot Noble Loru's motion had been obtained, as far as was ads alltag ..ous to the Public. The prin ciple was, to take every portion of expenditure that cur.%.2llier.Lly could be taken from the Civil Lie, and throw it on the `Consolidated Fundnot as a dead charge—but as a charge which, from Session to Session, was under the kontroul of Parliament; so that whenever there wet niabilit; to profusibn or abuse, then Parliament had over the expenditure an annual -Ilea. With respect to other branches set tled on a s late Majesty, it was impracticable to make i‘ some of heat certalb and invariable—even the ex penditure for the immediate support of the Royal Household must of necessity be liable to fluctuation. He doubted the policy of separating the maintenance of the Royal Farnily from the Civil Government; he would state his reasons male at large when the question came to be discussed. It was hitherto the constitution of the realm, that the expenditure of the Crown should be connected with the permanent, expenditure of the country. It would be highly ins-, proper to alter it now, and to insulate the Royal Family ; and, besides, the principle would be very difficult of application. Since the declaration of his Majesty from the Throne, the House stood on grounds very different from what it had ever stood upon before. The arrangements in 1816, were made for his present Majesty as Regent; and if any difference was to be made in the case of King from that of Regent, it would properly be a plea for something more; but his Majesty had stated that he wished for nothing additional. He (Lord Liverpool) did not think this ought to be made a question of right, but 1 one of expediency. The Parliament had the right to institute the inquiry, if it pleased, at the com mencement of a new reign ; but what he contended for was, that. the exercise of it, in the present in stance, could not be productive of the smallest ad vantage. However, when the subject came before the Ilouse, he would enter into a more ample refu tation of the opinion of the Noble mover. Lord KING snpported the motion of the Marquis of Lansdowne. He thought this was the proper time to go into a full inquiry. Toe inquiry in 1316 could not be as perfect and satisfactory as one entered into now, because it related to a vested interest in the late King. That vested interest stood then in the way of proper freedom of inquiry. it was necessary that such a classification of the accounts should take place as would prevent the confusion to which they were at present liable ; for instance, the Speaker of the House of Commons was paid, in one part, out of the Consolidated Fund, and in tlie other, out of the Civil 1 List ; a new arrangement might be made, which would preserve to the Crown whatever was necessary for its dignity, and settle the others on the most eco nomical principle. He contended that the arratrr b e ment of 1816 ought not to be made the basis of the new one; because that was a year of lavish expendi ture, of high prices, and of debased currency. To make it, therefore, the criterion of the new establish ments, would be to impose on the Nation. To save expense, it was requisite that inquiry should be adopted. Such a plan ought to be contemplated as would make it the interest of the Crown to be econo mical. Ills Lordship then touched upon certain ex penses, which he contended ought not to be mixed, up with the necessary expenditure of the Crown, such. as that of 8300,000 to Ministers at Foreign, Courts. As the case at present stood, it was the in terest of the Crown to increase the number of those who were qualified in this way for pensions ; and, therefore, a new and more economical arrangement should be adopted.—The motion was acceded to. IRISH REVENUE. Lord DARNLEY rose to give notice of a motion for a Copy of the• Patent of the King's Stationer in Ireland, and the production of certain Papers rela tive to the Irish Revenue. But at the suggestion of Lord Liverpool, the Noble Lord deferred his motion until this day.—The House then adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS. The Oaths were taken by several Members, among whom were Lord 'rotas:mix, Sir \V. Dm Calanosr, Sir Tnomas Morns, Jir. Cots of Norfolk, and Lord CNA ILLILS Towyaimo. Mr. H. SUMNER brought up a Bill for vesting the Walcot Charity Estate, in the parish of Lambeth, in the hands of Trus tees.—Read a rst time. The SPEAKER saki, he conceived It necessary to notice a circumstance. respecting which a misunderstanding had taken place among the Agents employed for conducting the private business before the House. They were led to suppose that the Private Llills which bad been introduced during the late Session, and which dropped in consequence of the dissolution of Parlia ment, might be now taken up in the stages at which they were left off. But it was necessary to state, that these Bills must be renewed; the evidence, however, which had been taken should stand good, and there should be no additional expense incurred by their renewal. On account of the misunderstanding which had taken place, be thought it might be convenient for the House to enlarge the time for receiving Petitions for Private Bills, which expired to-morrow, far a week longer. Mr. H. SUMNJ'R moved, that the Resolution already adopted on this subject be rescinded, and that Friday, the 12th instant, be the last day for receiving Petitions for Private Bills. This was agreed to. Mr. rIN LAY moved for several Accounts relating to the Distilleries of Scotland, among which was a return of the quan tity of Spirits distilled in that country from the year 1793 to Ital 8 inclusive, with the number of Distillers, distinguishing the quantity distilled iu each year, and the spirits distilled in the Lowlands from those in the ilighlands.—Ordered. TAX ON WOOL. Mr. THOMAS WILSON rose, for the purpose of presenting a Petition from the Wool-Manufacturers and Merchants concerned in the Wool Trade of the City of London. Adverting to the duty which was, imposed upon foreign wool in the course of last year, the Honourable Gentleman observed, that it ap peared to him, from the very first, a proceeding of an unwise and impolitic nature, considering that the manufacturing interest of this country was at that time even involved in great distresses, and that a' very large number of individuals were all that while I suffering under heavy difficulties add privations.-- He had always felt the truth of that maxim, " that the imposition of a new duty upon the raw material is a measure newel justifiable, except when the trade is in a flourishing condition." The Resolutions which had been founded upon these considerations, and transmitted to his Majesty's Ministers, were - such as, he thought, would make out a very strong case. It was evident that the great price of the raw article, would enhance the price of the manufacture in pro portion ; whereas a tall, such as would be occasioned by the withdrawing of the duty, would enable us to meet the competition of foreign markets. It was very true, as had been stated, that a great number ut merchants in the City had refused the order which was transmitted to England for the clothing of the Russian army ; and he mentioned the circumstance in corroboration of the view be had taken of the' question. The more he WWI wended 'his observa tions, the mote information he bad been enabled to collect upon the subject, he was so much the more lcoavineed that this Tax must operate like a mill stone round the neck of the manufaCturer. He sliaula not detain the House further upon this matter ; but he implored his Majesty's. Ministers to consider the state of the country, the condition of the manufac turing classes, and to reflect with how much better grace it would, come from them to repeal this Tax in pity to that country, and to those individuals, rather than to wait till the distress had increased to a degree which should make it imperative upon' them to do so. The Petition was then brought up: it prayed that Parliament would be pleased to confer upon thc Wool.trade that protection which it had always re ceived under all former reigns. Mr. ALEXANDER BARING thought, that a more important subject could not be brought under the consideration of the House than that which had been just submitted to it by the Honourable Member for the City of London. He could not, entirely un connected as he was with the wool-trade, or with persons. embarked in that trade, allow the present opportunity to pass, without saying that he consi dered this most ancient and valuable manufacture to be in very imminent danger—( Hear, hesr).—lt could hardly be expected of him to speak more par ticularly to the subject. He was not exactly pre pared to say whether the manufactures of the coun try could or could not bear this duty of 6d. per pound upon the importation of wool. But of this he was quite satisfied, that the duty last year was imposed without a sufficient consideration. It seemed to have been laid on by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, more for the purpose of conciliating some Honourable Gentlemen who were reluctant to adopt another tax, probably almost equally severe upon diem—the Malt Duty, rather than from other motives. He was quite sure, if it should appear that the manufactures of this country could not stand foreign competition while this tax existed, that to suffer it to continue for one or two years only, might be the means of establishing manufactures abroad, which would entirely overcome that competition which we bad sustained in their markets for centu ries, and which would get to such ahead, that no subsequent efforts of ours, no mitigation of duties even, would be able to undersell or put down. As far as regarded the Agricultural Interest, he would say, that if the Manufactures of the country were at stake by reason of the price of wool, the Agi icul tural Interest was equally so—a fact which could be easily made out. He did not know what course the Honourabk Gentleman opposite meant to pursue, but he could not suffer the matter to pass, without begging that the House would allow him to say, although it was not usual to give that sort of notice in such cases, that be (Mr. Baling) should on Mon day next present a Petition from the Merchants Of the City of London; relative to the general restric .tioas under which the Commerce of the country was at present labouring. In conclusion, he begged to observe, that he could not allow a Petition like that which had been just presented to be brought up with out offering a few words upon it, or without de claring that he considered it one of a most import; I ant description. He would say, that no Parliament had; ever been guilty of greater remissness in the discharge of their drtty than the last Parliament had evinced, by the inconsiderate manner in which they had imposed such a duty upon the importation of wool.--(Hear, hear). Mr. WILSON said, that he intended to follow up the Petition, according to the prayer contained in it, by calling the serious attention of the House to the subject. But he should let the Petition rest at pre sent, until the House were in possession of numerous others upon the same subject, which he expected would be forwarded from all parts of the country. - Tbe Petition was ordered to be printed. SCOTCH BURGHS. Lord ARCHIBALD HAMILTON rose for the purpose of moving the re-appointment of the. Co mmittee of last year, to inquire into the state of the Royal Burghs of Scotland. He was hippy to find that Ministers did not intend to resist this proposi tion; and, on this account, it would be unnecessary for him to detain the House at any length. The importance of the subject would be admitted on all hands; and such Gentlemen as had not been Mem \hers of the last Parliament might have an opportu nity of informing themselves very fully regarding it by the perusal of the Reports already prepared by pre vious Committees. This great question had excited, and continued to excite, the strongest interest in ' Scotland, and it was the duty of Parliament to in vestigate it thoroughly. With regard to the Mem bers he should propose for the Committee, some of them were new, because all the Gentlemen who served upon the last occasion did not now belong to the House. One of the new names he had first in serted, he understood, would be objected, to on the other side; and, as he did not wish to produce any disagreement, he had consented to withdraw it. To his motion for the revival of the Committee, it would be necessary to add another, for the purpose of sup plying them with the previous Reports of the years 1793,1818, 1819, and 1820. Ile then put his mo tions into the hands of the Speaker. On the question being put, Lord BINNING expressed his high sense of the liberality with which the Noble Lord had acted upon this subject.—The names of the Committee were then read over. Among them were, Lord A. Hamilton Sir R. Fergusson Sir James Mackintosh Mr. Finlay Lord Advocate of Scotland Mr. Maxwell Mr. Stuart Wortley Sir G. Clerk Mr. J. P. Grant lion. W. Dundee Mr. Mackenzie Lord Binning Mr. Minter Blair Lord Provost of Glasgow. The Reports of the dates mentioned by Lord A. Hamilton were referred to the Committee. COAL DUTIES. The Sheriffs of the City'of London pre s e n t e d a Petition from the Lord Mayor, Aldermen, and Com mons of the City of London, in Common Council assembled, Fraying for a continuation o f t h e powers granted by the 51st of the late king, for the purp.o.:e of improving the western part of the City, by the erection of a Post-Office, ecc.—On the motion for re ferring the Petition to a Committee, Mr. Serjeant ONSLOW rose, not to oppose the motion, but to enter lijs solemn protest against any extension of the Tax on Coals—(Hear, hear). It was contrary to every principle of taxation, that a general impost should be laid for a kcal purpose; and that such a duty as that in question should he levied on a necessary of life, affecting the whole of the :',letro -1 polls, as well as the counties of Surre)., Kent, Llert ford, Buckinghamshire, &c. Mr. N. CALVERT also took the earliest opporte, nit% of plote , ting against any such proceeding. Mr. R. GORDON rernirded the House, that le had uniformly endeavoured to call the attention cr the House to this subject. The fact was, that tvo hundred and thirty thousand pounds had been ew- pended on the New Post-Oirice without a :intzlo !nick having been laid ! When the Returns for which he had yesterday moved should be laid on the table, this would be 'made apparent. The uligina estimate for the building was 1.:‘_!08,000. Mr. 11. SUMNER wished that some explanation. should be made of the object in view, as well as the mode in which the money already raised had been applied. The SPEAKER observed, that as the Petit:oi was a private Petition, no step could be taken out a previous inquiry by a Committee. Mr. Alderman WOOD said, it would be tiself.-,3 for him to take up the time of the House at ti:.a nee ment by any observations on the sub j ect. lie ultra deny, however, that the erection of a new Post-0:- fice was a local benefit to the City of London; it w:is a public benefit. So far from the tax on Coals b&:itz advantageous to the City of London, as long it continued the City would have to !my Ei 000 .1 year. The Petition was that referred to a Committee. nattoN OF THE EXCHEQUER IN SCOTLAND. I The LOltD ADVOCATE, adverting to the con versation which had lately taken place in the House, on the subject of the appointment of a fourth Laron of the Exchequer in Scotland, observed, that whet the vacancy in question occurre,!, he had been r:2- quired, in the discharge of his official duty, to nia%.,. a Report, on the recommendation of the Commis sioners, on the Courts cat JusiLe in Scotland, to a!)- stain from filling up , any such vacancy that rri;:•,l't occur after that recommendation. In order the better to enable himself to e7:ecotc this task, he had submitted the subject to the consideration of the highest Law Authorities in Scotland; namely, the Lord President of the Court of Session, the i.ord Justice (lei k, the Lord Chief Commissioner of the Jury Court, and the Lord Chief Blt0:1 of the Exchequer. Th. se high Authorities were unanimous in their opinion of the expediency of filling up the vacancy. He was solici tous that the House should be pin in pos•es-ion of this Report; not because it stared the opinion of the humble individual who addressed them, but because it comprehended the opinion of the highest Legal Authorities in Scotland on.the subject. He would therefore move, " That an humble Address be presented to Lis Majesty, pray ing that he would he graciously pleased to order that then:: he laid before the House a copy of the Report made by the Lord Advocate of Scotland, on the recommendation contained in the Sixth Report of the Commissioners of the Courts of Justice in Scotland, regarding the disc4ntinuance of one of theLarons of the Court of Exchequer in Scotland." Mr. ABERCROMBIE rose, not to oppose the motion, but to express his extreme regret that, when a Report had been made by Commissioners ap pointed by that House, expressing the opinion of those Commissioners, that the office in question should, in the event ofta vacancy, not be filled up, his Majesty should nevertheless have been advised to fill it up. He was veryhappy that the Learned Lord had moved for the production of this paper, as it was an admission on the part of the Learned Lord (which he trusted the Public would bear in mind), that what related to that Court was a fit matter for parliamen tary investigation. lie was unequivocally cf opi nion, that into the nature of the Court of Exchequer in Scotland, it .behoved that House to institute a di.. ligent inquiry—an inquiry founded on the large and extended principle of separating from official duties branches of business that were not properly compati ble with those duties.• It was most essential to pub lic justice that the duties of a Judge should never as sume a political character— Hear, hear!o.—O ir these grounds, and mainly oo the admission which the motion implied, of its being the duty of Parlia ment to invitstigate the subject, he gave his cordial assent to it. Lord BINNING said, that ti:e Honourable and Learned Gentleman spoke as if his Learned Friend had himself originated the inquiry. It was not so. His Learned Friend was only ministerial. The Secretary of State having required a Report frotn his Learned Friend on the recommendation of the Com missioners, he had done his duty by appealing on the subject to the highest Law Authorities cf Scotland. Mr. ABERCROMBIE, in explanation, ob erved s , that it was substantially the san:e thing. From what ever source the inquiry proceeded, it was evident that the act of Guvcina:ent was in hostility to the-- opinion of the Com mi ,sioners. Ile begged, however, to be distinctly understood, that nothing could benacie foreign to his intention than to intimate anything that was not entirely respectful to the Learned Lord. Sir J. NEWPORT supported the necessity of an inquiry into the constitution of the Court of Exche quer in Scotland. It was evident that the informa tion which was to be afforded on the subject, was ab solutely forced from Government, by the observations made by his Noble Friend. Mr. HUSKISSON said, that the appointment had taken place 'before the meeting of Parliament. The motion was then agreed to. MARRIAGE ♦CT. Dr. PHILLIMOI:E, alter a re -statement of the grounds on which he had in the last Session of Par liament introduced a similar measure, obtained leave to bring a Bill to amend the Marriage Act. GIBRA LTA R DUTIES. Mr. HIDIE, before he proceeded to the motion of which he had given notice, wished to correct a mis take that had occurred with reference to one of his statements yesterday evening. He had said, that in the seventh class of the Civil List, in 1815, there was to be found an expenditure which he had cha racterised :is tkeless, namely, the sum of 1,372/. pay able to the Master of the Hawks, not the Master of the Horse, as had been erroneously stated. He came now to the question of the Revenue derived from Gibraltar. He had on a former occasion submitted to the Home a motion on the subject, which motion he had ‘vithdrawn, -because it had been .'eclared by the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, that the House had no ri L slit to interfere with the Revenue derived' from Gibraltar, and that it never had so interfered. At that time he was not so well prepared to meet the Right Hon. Gentleman. But he was now able to inform him and the House, that the Revenue derived fwm Gibraltar had been detailed it laid before the V lk gal abo app mei Ror but ii i. ,-i4