Star. — London, England, 1830-02-24 00:00:00

6:teient to be such—(hear, hear) ; and would maintain, that occa sions frequently presented themselves which not only justified, but imperatively called upon the representative to act contrary to the eopular side of tt question. He could not refer to the last session of Parliament for a proof of this opinion ; but would content himself with appealing to the experience of the house, whether that, as a principle, that as the he was not justified in asserting many were not at all times the best judges of their own interest, it was expedient that the enlightened few should be vested with discretionary power of acting in obedience to their own views of the general welfare. He might fortify this declaration by the highest authorities on constitutional matters. It had been truly observed, and could not be too often tepeated, that honourable members sat in that house, in a constitutional point of view, not as the mere agents of this or that district, of this or that in. terest, but of the general interests of the country.—(hear.) He wished to know the limit of the noble lord's proposition. He should like to know if Birmingham, Leeds, and other large towns, were permitted to return representatives to that house, why other equally large towns should not, at the same time, be vested with the same constitutional prerogative. 'Why, for example, if a town containing 82,000 inhabitants were vested with the right of return. ing two re pr e sentatives, should a town containing half that number of inhabitants, or even 20,000 be denied the right of returning one ? Or, not to confine his argument to the large towns, why, ii Rutlandehire a small county, returned two representatives, should not Staff ordshire, Middlesex, and other populous counties return more ? But the fact was, that there was no necessity for either change in the present system—inasmuch, he repeated, as they sat there, not as the representatives of particular, but of the general interest. Lord AIORPETH said, the honourable member for Wooton Basset (Mr. Twiss) began by declaring that he thought the govern ment and the house were fully justified in making concessions to the Roman Cotholics, because great danger was to be apprehended from Nfusing them ; and that he was not disposed to make the cones rions now required by the Reformers, because the same danger did not demand the same sacrifices. (Bear.) Now he (Lord Dior peth) was quite prepared to adinit that the same danger was not to :`C apprehended from a refusal of the noble lord's motion; but he really must contend that there might be very great danger in refusing to t i ke the claims of the country into their consideration. The 'orate of the country had undergone a great change within the last tew years. The people were every day acquiring intelligence, and with that intelligence they obtained moral power; but it was the misfortune of the thee, that while a great portion of the country watt thus advancing in moral power, it was retrograding in physical power. The people were becoming more enlightened, but they were at the same time becoming more distressed ; and when they saw the population of Sheffield petitioning, and those of Birmingham as sociating, he thought there were signs of those times in which it was not quite safe to resist the just wishes and reasonable remonstnutces of those who now claimed a participation in the advantages of a free representation. A noble relation of his had proposed an amendment to the same &int as that which had been carried in the year 1819. But the moment he heard those resolutions mentioned he felt satisfied that they presented in themselves an insuperable ob jection to their being adopted. Since the time these resolutions were passed they had disfranchised Grampound and Penryn, and they were tardily proceeding to legislate with respect to East Het ford ; but ten years had passed away in the interval, and he would ark where are the representatives of Leeds; of Manchester, and of Birmingham ? (Hear, hear, hear.) In his opinion the adoption of the amendment of his noble relation would lead to fresh delays and fresh disappointments ; and the great question of a reform of the representation which in the present instance - " In decimum vestigia retulit annum," would probably be allowed to rest altogether, or return under their consideration in the course of another ten years. For his part, he was satisfied that the propositions of his Noble Friend involved no. thing new in principle, or inconvenient in practice, and he was de. titruined to give them his entire concurrence. No honest man could lay his hand on his heart, and, looking at the amount of tax ation in the fifteenth year of peace, and the manner in which all reductions were resisted , declare sincerely that such things could have taken place, if the representation had been reformed. The character of that house, it should be recollected, did not stand very high in the opinions of the people. There was nothing in their principles or their conduct which could justify a refusal of the claims of the pe titioners ; and, in his opinion, a temperate and timely reform of the representation, while it formed a safeguard against any virulent expression of popular feeling, was at the same time recommended by every consideration of justice, policy, and prudence. For these reasons he gave his cordial support to the noble lord's resolution. Lord VALLETORT began by observing, that he looked at men as well as measures (hear, and a laugh;) and, when he saw the noble mover of the resolution vote only three days ago for a general measure of reform, he could nor avoid having some suspicion of that proposition they were now considering. He looked, indeed, on the motion of the noble lord, as the advanced guard of those se formers, who had with very little address made a violent and directed assault on a former evening, against all the political Intim titres of the country (Symptoms of impatience began at this mo ment to manifest themselves on the opposition side of the house, and the honourable member was from this cause audible only at intervals throughout the remainder of his speech.) Dr. LUSIIINGTON said, the time was come when no man could assert the antiquity of an abuse as a reason for its continuance. Alterations had been made in the whole system of our laws; and were they to be told that a system of representation, framed 300 years ago—that abuses which had been acknow ledged in tne times of James and the two Charles,-- and when at the same time not a borough or city remained the same as it was then, was to remain untouched 'and unal tered? They must either admit that the representation of that time, or of the present, is inefficient, if at is contended that it vould remain as it is at present ; for how can it suit two periods so thteerint ? The honourable member for Winchelsea (Brougham) lied told them in one word, more powerful then thirty sentences, that tlie schoolmaster was abroad (hear.) Could they send him home ein ? Could they blind the people now ? (bear.) His course was as certain as that of the arrows from the bow, and as irrevo. cable (heat.) Was it true that neither Birmingham, nor 3lane e'ester, no Leeds. had never suffered any inconvenience from never being represented in that house ? Ile was old enough to remember the time when the town of Birmingham suffered a great and direct inconvenience from not having any repre sentative in that house. He alluded to the year 1812, when, in corsequence of the government measure of the orders in council, the trade of Birmingham was reduced to the last stage of de gradation and suffering. But it was not Birmingham alone. Any town having a hundred thousand English inhabitants had a right to have sonie ibtlividual in that house on whom they would have a just claim to attend to their complaints, and endeavour to obtain fin them redress. It war well known that the inhabitants of popu lous but unrepresented towns were frequently compelled to go from me member to another ' and beg that he would take up their cause; well knowin g that although the member for the county might lay their petition on th e ta bl e , lie would be unable to explain tiieir wants anti wishes to the house. After all the consideration w.:ieh he had been able to give to the subject, he was persuaded that i the h ouse wou ld not be able long to withhold a reform of the re presentation, in some shape or other; gradual, if they pleased—. , parded, if they liked—limited at first to such cases as those under consideration, but proceeding on the saute principle as that which was the prir.ciple of his noble friend's motion, and applying equally to every town in the country entitled by its population to the privilege of the elective franchise. There could be no better criterion of the right to that privilege than large numbers and great wealth. " Sir," continued the hon. and learned gentleman, am in my conscience convinced--and I do not s p ea k i t i n h os: 1:11:y to his majesty's ministers—to whom, on the contrary, I am deeply grateful tbr more than I expected front them—but I am in ..er conscience convinced that a pressing time is rapidly citing upon us. hat was once an inconvenience, has now becoina b so en-a:ln g le oppressive to the people, that measures more efficacious, taking a wider range, and of much se.erer character than any hitherto Foliose& must speedily be adopted. Lurd VA LLE TORT explained. Sir D. al I ;RRA Y said, that the noble lord had on this °cession, .1 4 he bud always upon all others, brought forward his motion with gat I, input. and moderation. In the speech with which he intros due t d that motion he had told the house that they must remember that our constitution was not a Grecian temple of such admirable grypettioter as rendered it susceptible of no change. He (Sir G. Aurray) did not regret that the constitution was not a Grecian temple. He rejoiced rather that it was as the noble lord :Id termed it—a Gothic structure, put together at different period s by our ancestors. It was, in his opinion, in that ferns .sere durable than any Grecian structure would• be, and be, there 'ore. thought it better adapted to this country. He was quite ready to admit the justice of the principle of the noble kid, that 11 was 'apothems to give representatives to the great towns of the king du ; but he could not agree to cony that object into execution . Ithe way whi c h t h e no bl e lord proposed. Me was perfectly y. on :he occasional disfranchisement of any corrupt too „ugh, to transfer the right of representation to a great town ; he had a great objection to augment the number of Members , 1 that house, and thereby to deeteol the lie had a snare respect fee what !Lel : tiled popular, rpric rdcn in. He 54• satisfied that the desire of the was always to do that winch was. right, and if they ever fe= wars it was because they ..fe led into them by Ulu and blind guides. This, biased, was aot unfrequently the we, and it was for that reason that the Bevan "ent appeared indifferent to opinions caromed by the people, it , their duty not to a d apt measures hastily, Intt w RT. :•cularly and deliberately how they would tend. to th e pub iie , 400 & General GASCOVNZ said, it was notecioue *hoc, if there was env interest not properly represented in that bones, it *se the ma. %dictating interest, and be thought, therefore, that thin could be no good ground for denying the towns now in question the right to send members to parliament. He would recommend to the noble lord (Sandon) to withdraw his amendment, and allow the bill to go into a committee, when it could be amended. Mr. C. WYNN said, so far from an increase being necesaary he thought that decidedly the contrary would be preferable. Cer tainly the number of six might not appear to be very great, but this might lead to an indefinite increase of number. The claims of Sheffield had been urged, and, in answer, the town of Halifax had been named as entitled to representatives. That town was nearly as rich, and fully as populous. If these claims were allowed they might be followed with those of the towns of Rochdale, of Blackburn, of Rotherham, and Huddersfield, and other places, which were all rich and populous. Indeed, there would be no end to the increase on this plea. (Rear.) He was satisfied that the house was less fit for the dispatch of pub lic business since the union, in consequence of the increase of the number of members. He should not object to the house recog nising by a resolution, that it was desirable, in case of disfran chising any place for corruption, to transfer the right of franchise to these large towns; but he most strongly opposed the present course, which he conceived was pregnant with inconvenience and danger. Mr. HUSKISSON could not give a silent vote upon this occa sion. He had come to this decision after great doubt and hesitation, and sorry he was that he could not concur in the amend ment of his noble friend. Looking at the amendment of his noble friend, he found that the large towns not having representatives was a great practical evil. He had then made that confession, which being made, the amendment went on to say, that the detection of a crime must be awaited before the remedy was to be applied. After East Retford, he could have but little hope in such a course, even if it were consistent in all Its parts ; and therefore, although he was sorry for it, he could not support the amendment of his noble friend. He did not think it necessary to go into the wide question of parliamentary reform. With respect to the objection up on the Union with Scotland, he did not see how it was possible to lay much weight upon that. The article of the Union with Scotland was more violated by the Union with Ireland, in the admission of one hundred members at once, than it could be by the pro position of the noble lord (Lord J. Russell). The case requiring a remedy was not fanciful ; it was not in theory only, but in practice that It existed, and he thought that it ought immediately to be at. tended to. To parliamentary reform, as a remodeling of the repre sentative system was called, he always had been and hcalways should be opposed. Such an attempt would lead to anarchy, and end only in confusion or military despotism. He should have been well con tented if the franchise of East Retford Lad been transferred to Bir mingham. His right hon. friend, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, had recommended him to make his stand in the swamp of East act ford, and to encourage hint had offered as a further latitude the plains of Bassetlaw ; but he was for making the remove to Birming ham at once. If any other proposition could be made less likely to to injure the constitution than that of the noble lord (Lord J.Russell) he should be ready to listen to it, and to adopt it. He knew how ever of no such proposition. It was idle to say that such towns as Birmingham had not interests which it was impossible for tire county members to attend to. Birmingham was at the head of a great manufacturing interest, and he should not object to any proposition to give representatives to any town similarly circum stanced. His right hon. friend (Mr. Peel) said he was favourable to the large manufacturing towns being represented, but when an opportunity presented itself, as in the cage of East Retford, it could not be taken advantage of. Such he feared would be the case if another Feat Retford occurred. He would not innovate to the giving up of any real advantage, but he would innovate in the manner pro posed. It was not safe or politic to lag behind the spirit of the age. The noble lord was young enough to hope to compass his desires, and would in alt probability live to hear his pre sent opponents acknowledge the merits of his plan. If the noble lord should obtain leave to bring in his bill, he would suggest the propriety of introducing a clause which would render the decision of two committees of that house decisive, and enable the house to proceed to the difianehisement of a borough so convicted, without reference to the House of Lords. That house he contended was the fitting guardian of our privileges, and he was satisfied that nothing effectual could be done until such a course was adopted. The right hon. gentleman concluded by declaring his intention to support the motion. Lord W PAULETT supported, the motion of his noble friend, on the ground that Birmingham and other great towns required adequate representation. The Bluquis of BLANDFORD : I shall feel it my duty to support the motion of the Noble Lord, although I am free to con. feu I do but look upon it as a tub to the whale. And I seise this op portunity to give notice that after the Easter recess, I shall move this House that a Reform in the Representation of the People is expedient. Mr. BRIGHT expressed admire to see the representation in that house restored to the ancient constitution. His hope was that those hon. members who had influence with the noble lord would induce him to bring into parliament the representatives of great interests which remain unrepresented. Mr. Secretary PEEL said he should follow the example of the noble lord in the line he was capable of taking with success. He alluded to the moderation that noble lord had displayed; the temperance so well calculated to conciliate difference of opi nion upon this question. So long as he had held a seat in Par. liamen:, and frequently as the house had been engaged in the discussion of reform, it had seldom happened that he had taken a share in the question. Feeling that the subject had been die. cussed by persons of pre.tminent abilities, he had been content to give a silent vote on the question. At the same time, although be had not taken an active part in the debate, he had weighed the question rather as a witness than a partisan, being convinced by the powerful arguments of Mr. Burke, and his right bon. friend Mr. Canning, that reform could not be introduced without danger to the constitution. The arguments of Burke and Canning had proved that they could not introduce reform upon any principle of demo cratic representation. Some exaggeration had occurred, but their arguments were decisive in his mind as to the danger of the expert. meet. Mr. Canning had argued that the constitution of that house was founded on prescription. It was a pan of the Constitu. don. They had the House of Lords and the King, and the House of Commons was only a branch of the constitution. If they adopted reform, they would give the House of Commons a power 1 inconsistent with the constitution of the House of Lords, and our limited monarchy. The right hon. Secretary saw emhing to induce him to vote for the scheme of reform. It had been said that reform would have the effect of discouraging war and a profligate expendi ture of the public money. He doubted very much whether that would be the effect. The example of free republics in ancient times did not afford many proofs of a desire on the pan of the people to avoid war.--Genoa and Venice would not prove that popular govern. 'meats were always the best. The right hon. Secretary did not be lieve that the wars of this country had been earned on against a senend reriod I the common sentiment. There might have been 1 when the people became tired of war, but they had y been clamorous for it. He had read the beautiful speech dressed in 1780 by Mr. Barks to his constituents at Bristol. Mr. Burke did not succeed as a candidate at the election, and one of the strongest objections was that he had done every thing he could to dissuade the Government from a war. Mr. Burke suffered unpopularity on that account, and could not succeed with his constituents In the war of 1793 it was impossible to say the feeling of the country was not for war. He re. membered Mr. Fox moved a resolution condemnatory of the war,and found only 36 members to support him. The number which opposed him was B.This was a proof that the people were desirous of wer,and that parliament did not force them into war against their consent.— He did not believe • that more of the popular voice in that house would have the effect of preventing war. If any tbing could confirm him in his opinion that the house could not be better constituted than at present, it was the speech of an hon. member who had stated ihat the house was disposed on all occasions to accomplish reform. He did not believe that that house, under any reform, would have a sincerer desire to protect the people and defend their rights. The i right honourable gentleman alluded to a question put to him on afro. mcr night, in which it was asked whether he had beanie slaw in cite l state of Georgia, by which every free memo of colour was put under quarantine ? Making allowance for the Masseuse St slavery in that country, he did not think the Homed Commie would have passed such a law as be should read--( The tight ho. nournble gentleman &wailingly read an selectman, in Whisk is was said, if say free slave should teach another days to Ali he' should be punished with fine, whipping, and impdsenemille.).-s He did not think that house would inflict a punishment of liv and whipping on any one who might Mitch a fres person of coleus to ra4. With respect to the proposition of the noble Ind, it amtsend , to him that great objection existed to his Wined plea. Mel noble lord proposed they should add to the House of ColiMill.o 4 six members from towns to he mentioned ; and that ID Cone e corruption in boroughs, the right to return members to igeolfsp+ meat should cease. Several gentlemen had peony was d, in opposition to the measure, that is MO" 11 departure fsatp else Am. of Union, iVben the number of forty-live commoner, was pamed i for Seothod, it would not be consonant with the Act of 'Union to add six to the English reprenotation. if sharked da etlis4,l Scotland had a right to • th e some ,addision, and kdemi Jhelum& i If they were that night to consent to admit ids gone dyes, he was sure they would receive applications boat = l"l gisat towns. That six supernumerary members were to be appointed 1 appeared at least to be a hovel proposition. if they added super numerarieN to any establishment, the application for admissions would be numerous indeed. This novelty was not essential to the proape. rity of Manchester, Birmingham, or Leeds. The noble lord admitted that nothing could be more extraordinary than the rapid prosperity of Manchester. He could not accept the proposition of the noble lord as an amendment upon the motion. He also opposed the motion. because six new members for the manufacturing and trading interests would induce die landed interest to send more members. The noble lord had proposed that they would transfer, in case of corrup tion, the franchises to great towns, but why should they tie them selves down to any specific mode of proceeding before they knew what the offence was. When bribery was established, it would be time to deal with it. It would be improper for any minister to pledge himself to s econ d t h e i ntent i ons of any party. He should not become a partisan, but preserve a steady middle course, leaving himself at full liberty to act for the benefit of the country. Mr. BROUGHAM said that, whatever difference of opinion there might be, on some parts of the question between the right hon. gent. and himself, he must say that he felt highly gratified by his candid and liberal speech. He looked upon it as an event favourable to the cause of reform,—as an auspicious circumstance to that cause. He (Mr. Brougham) should not deviate from the examples of can. dour set by the right hon. gentleman, and of moderation by the noble lord (Russell), if he stated, as he felt in discharge of his duty in that house bound to do, his obligation for his able and temperate speech, though not the less against the opinions he (Mr. Brougham) entertained ; and if he, In shortly adverting to the grounds of his difference of sentiments, should be diverted in some degree from the subject of parliamentary reform. He had resolved to confine himself to the proposition of the noble lord, which was not a question of parliamentary reform generally, but a specific proposition, which a person might support who was against parlia mentary reform ; and some had done so to-night, because they were the enemies of parliamentary reform generally. He (Dlr. Brougham) was not one of those who believed that the character of parlia ment would be greatly changed for the better by the infusion of a large portion of popular opinion,—by the addition of a larger proportion of popular members. He was not one of those who expected that such a change would provide a greater security against unnecessarily going to war—an evil which was itself equivalent to all calamities that the country could be exposed to, because it in volved in itself every form, every species of public prospective evil. Although he could think that Parliamentary reform would not in crease the security against such calamities, he did not say that even a slender diminution of this important security would change his opinion of Parliamentary reform ; but it would make him pause. (hear, hear.) But it was one thing to say that the reform of Par liament would not add to the security, and another thing that that reform would sensibly increase the risk ; for both principle and practice, reason and experience, satisfied him that that security would not be lessened. lie (Mr. Brougham) was not bound to show that it would be lessened ; it was sufficient if he could show that it would not be increased. During the French and the Ameri can wars there prevailed a strong propensity, not only a vain, silly, and empty, but a criminal and guilty love of what the nation might be said to have worshipped under the name of national glory (hear. hear); and now were to be seen the evils of the passion of that generation, chile their children were, in sorrow and sadness, reap. ing the bitter fruits of their folly (hear.) But it was neither the praise nor the blame, it was truth and justice to say,that the crimes of those wars were not imputable to this house of parliament ; it was neither the constituents nor the representatives—neither the persons represented nor those not represented--neither members nor electors, who were answerable for these wars: they were owing to the general feeling of the country. So far for the commencement of the war. But there was another remark. Did the representatives of those parliaments impose any control on the popular delusion, by the operation of their superior wisdom and knowledge, and keep apart, as far as they could, from the broils and tumults of the multitude? Did the members of those parliaments open the eyes of their fellow-chisens ? Did those members, mixed, as it was said they were, partly consisting of popular representatives, and partly of persons not so chosen. but eminent for their wisdom, their knowledge, their understanding--did they furnish that check and control which they ought to have done ? No : the utmost that could be said was, that the people were as bad as the parliament, l and he did not deny that the parliament erg as bad as the people. —(Cheers). There was another remark, and he wondered it had escaped the acuteness of the right honourable gentleman. It was very true that at the beginning, parliament was backed by the people. But as it was said some hundred years ago, the rabble goes sometimes right, but on other occasions it goes wrong. It went so then ; and though he wished to speak with respect, parliament did not prevent them; even the least popular members, the members from the county of Cornwall, did not prevent the multitude from going astray (a Isugb). But the people opened their eyes a long while before the parliament did. The American war might be popular in 1776 and 1777 ; but that it was so in 1778 and 1779, when the French government took part in it, he de nied. The successes of the war might have made it popular for a time, but after Saratoga, and the defeats our forces experienced, it would be impossible for ;any men to doubt that the American war had outlived its popularity at that time. In 1707 and 17911 the French war had outlived its popularity; but they who laid on the taxes were not so likely to feel their weight as those who paid them. People, when they suffered the actual calamities of war, opened their eyes much sooner than their rulers, who only felt a moderate share of those calamides. Therefore, though these wars might not have been prevented, they would probably have had a shorter existence from an increase in the number of popular mem. hers In Parliament—(hear. hear.) The right honourable gentle. man had expressed a high opinion of our American brethren, and he was pleased to join in sentiments which did not often proceed from that bench. Ile (Mr. Brougham) joined with him in deeply lamenting that thew should exist on the part of the legislature of a member of that great union, an act so die. graceful u that to which the right hon. gentlemen had alluded. But he contended that this fact had no tendeney—not the remotest— bearing on the argument for puliamer.tary reform, even of the most extravagant kind, to which he was not friendly,—he meant universal sufferage ; that the act passed by the suteof Georgia offered even the shadow of an argument against even universal suffrage be did moat en. tirely deny. Ney,if he was an advocate of universal saline he should rest his fine, on that very page of the statute book of Georgia, and say, " Hue is an instance of the effects of legislating for people who are not represented." This was the reams why those people blackened in the sight of the state of Georgia. He granted that there were scandalous clauses in the laws against the slaves of that state. The right bon. gentleman asked if this house would do say such thing ? He (Mr. Brougham) did Dot wish to speak die respectfully of the house, but hs . doulted if be could trust it, if such mature came before it in a regular way, and if the house was In the same relative situation as in Georgia, and assuming that D por tion of our community were stamped with a peculiar character, and htcapacitated by a municipal law co-extensive with the law of nature. One reason he had for saying this was that he vecalleeted that in Berbadoes, which was our best regulated slave colony, and called Little Itnglead, a law was paned for the PTONCIIOO of the white inhabitants, which enacted that if any white. mem should by accident, heat of blood, or in silt:defence. kill a slave, the said white man should go absolutely free and unpunished; but Warp such white person should maliciously end intentionally kill sad murder • slave, then be should be lined 111. I6e. He would defy any member to ransack all the Statute, of North America, and produce any law which should equal in cruelty that be had just stated. Is what an abject condition must that , class be, and whit must be the character of the people and the ; gent, where such a law would meet with the approbation of she legislature ! ( . Hear.) And wen ibex no Wear* to tx round Rester tame? But he should abstain from aiming into *sails uldeb might excite recolleetiorm of a disavowal* mature The right &insurable gentleman hadreiledeodad that the adrolesios a . 4i OW foram of popular ogle* dituill make Ill* brol,ch the eenstitetioo encroach upon shoo** mid vould give * the people too much power. Ile could we Do groom' for this arrow henries. Ile was of opiniin %blithe trial majority of the people were not desirous of ;thing too much power to the popular branch, but were most willing to support the rights of the ati , :ocrecy and the crown. What security should we have against change and revolution, even if the representation were confined within far nar rower bound. than at present, if no public voice were heard widths these walls ? iVhat was it that, even under such circumstances, would afford us security for the permanent existence of the crown, the aristocracy, and the house, accept this--that the great bulk of the people were, on the whole, and take them all in all, a loyal and orderly community, and that they did not desire to see a revolution ? —(hear.) In his conscience be believed this to be the best security for Kings, Lords, and Commons; and that there was no country under the sun where the aristocracy had so much weight AS in this. That was the result of all his experience. Those who were ro parliamentary refomi hoped to sec the influence of the people (which was a beneficial influence) continued and augmented, whereas it was only exerted by spirts and accidentally. They wished to see the machine of government better regulated than at present—to sub. stitute influence for force, love for fear, confidence for distrust : thry wished to see all these latter things rendered nugatory and needless by a truly popular representation. The question betore the house was, whether his noble friend's proposition should be adopted—whether three great cities should have representatives in parliament as well as three of the paltriest borough', possessing no wealth, trade, or ir. . tellect. Did he mean to deny that public opinion found its way within those walls ? No, he should be the very last man to dispute it : his complaint and objection was, that it was a long time in finding its way thither ; but if we bad a reform in parliament, it would come more directly. We should not have to wait years and years till an abuse had been undermined—till the point was carried by sap instead of by storm. Had this been the case, we should nut have lived to see that accursed African slavery condemned by the unanimous voice of the country thirty years before it was put an end to by parliament. (Hear, hear.) The hon. member for Tre gony gave a pregnant instance of the disadvantage of great towns like those now In question not being represented. During the great cont. mercial struggle*, when the interests of the inhabitants of these places were at stake to an enormous extent, they were compelled to come here by deputies—to hold a sort of parliament of their own across Palsce.yard, and day after day to canvass the votes of members who were perfect strangers to them, on public grounds, and to tely upon the assistance of men whom faces they had never before seen. That was a case which Birmingham, Manchester, and Leeds, could not have forgot. Indeed the people of Birmingham and Mancliceter (of Leeds he could not speak from personal knowledge) had changed their sentiments on the subject of Parliamentary reform upon this ground ; though before they held that there could be no better state of things than that which then existed, and laughed to scorn those who said that they were not represented, replying, that they were virtually represented by the members for Liverpool end the county members for Il'arwickshire. (Hear, hear.) Yet now all those opinions were changed, and the inhabitants of Binning. ham and Manchester were in the van of the supporters of a practical and limited parliamentary reform.—(Hear.) He denied that th... proposed addition to the representation was any infringement on the treaty of union with Scotland. It had been so argued, but Ise de. vied the statement, both as far as the fact and the law of the case was concerned. The act of union said that Scotland should be represented by 16 peers and 45 commoners in the imperial parlia ment, but it did not follow that England was to be confined to 513 members. The argument of the union did not prevent the abolition of heritable jurisdictions in 1746, although that alteration involved a private right, which, according to the terms of the act of union. was not to be interfered with except for the manifest benefit of Stet land. As to the treaty of union with Ireland, in 1800, that was not so much a parliamentary reform as a parliamentary revolution, by which 100 members bad been inserted in the House of Commons, and he knew not bow many representative peers were introducel into the peers; yet no Scotch member raised his voice against this proceeding, or condemned it as a departure from the treaty of union with Scotland. What did his noble friend's motion call ffitt ? What was its immediate object ? It was rather a recurrence to the practice of former tknse than an innovation upon the present. it was more in the nature of a restoration than a revolution (hear) *r though Birmingham, Leeds, and Manchester had, as yet, sent Unrepresentative' to Parliament, could it be doubted if there plat towns had borne the same proportion as at present to the slat of the country, at the period when the representation was established on its present footing, that they would have been re. lamented from the beginning ? The inhabitants of Manchester and &OM TIM 180,000; of Birmingham, 130,000; were these to be ffilk unrepresented ? To such a height had these towns grown with the successful growth of trade and commerce among us. Yet these great places were on the footing of paltry country towns, in all their internal and local arrangements. In fact, they were placed on the same footing with manors with manor courts (he spoke particu 'laxly of Manchester, with the adjoining town of Salford), and with regulations better adapted to a population of 5,000 persons (tee number of inhabitants in the beginning of the last cen. levy) than to their present extent and importance. He begged to guard the house against being led away by one topic urged le NAT to the Noble Lord's proposition,--namely, where was this wand To-day Birmingham, Manchester, and Leeds claimed Mbe represented ; to-morrow Sheffield, and other towns similarly circumstanced, would require the same privilege. Well, this an. ewer, if answer it could be called, went the length of saying there shall be no iruptovnment,--no reform whatsoever. " Ann me with this topic," continued the honourable and learned gentleman, " and find me a set of men simple enough to listen to it, and if I am the sworn foe of all improvement, the unvarying friend of abuse, and the tried enemy of reform,-41 I am the man to cry out unceasingly, things as they are, the whole of things as they are, and nothing else but things as they are,- arm me but with this, and back me with men sufficiently misled et bewildered to believe me, or timid and thoughtless enough to be scared by the outcry, and to concur in the desire for things as they are, the whole of things as they are, and nothing else but things es they are,' and never shall we see reform or improvement the most pus sl l vital I never shall we see abuses attacked with a prospect oremesenf• (Hear.) But we hid a right to expect better things Alm some of the members of the present government. He said, in% oe the right hon. gentleman opposite, let the government premed firmly anti strongly in its own good purpose—let it not be drawn sable from pursuing useful measures by the feat of doctrines of ill repute being attributed to it,—let it not be allured by a love of mock popularity to adopt measures which had no claims for appru. beckon upon any solid judgment, which were not grounded upon right reason and sound principle ,—let the right hon. gentleman continue to love thnt popularity which followed useful action*, mid was not sought after, and let the members of that housirespee t the voice of their constituents when it coincided with the dictates of reason and their own unbiassed judgments, and trust to the country to join them in the approbation and adoptiou of measures such an that now proposed. (The hon. gentleman sat down amid cheers, and loud cries of" Question.") The house then divided, when the numbers were— For the motion . . 140 I Against it . Majority . . 48. Adjourned at HALF-PAST Owl O'CLOCK. . Ids HOUSE OF LORDS—Tint, DA V. Their Lordships do not meet to-day, in cor.seggence et its belt g Ash Wednesday. Immennennmenemnossmm HOUSE OF COMMONS.•••TH IR DAY. ORDERS OF Tat DAY. fieppiy et Ways aid Muni—Oseunktes thoreon.-4No mein_ desoe to seseopoteine mile by Mr. Muni with the Chen. Cafe e( she ea Asii to &baw be wawa that us Rely is experience at Arch Appalmaaat Bill— Committee them " FtopTly in laws Ell— dam. Lama& baps =Wilma Lial4l4 ar Sp) y 1115-41 eta Commas la ',laity