Star. — London, England, 1812-04-24 00:00:00

• - . allow diem to do so—their sense of justice would riot let Them . . He was not afraid of Court influence, he had ertiountered it in 1782, and he had beat it down. It wits in vain to think the Church could be employed in favour of proscription and bigotry, as it was known that there a very different feeling existed. He called upon the House to look, if they now rejected his pro position to take the Claims of the Catholics into their consideration, and thus determined on continuing their disabilities f•r ever, of what breaches of engage ments they would he guilty. They would give him leave to tell them, how much the honour of the Na tion, and of the Government was concerned ? He could not forget the services the Catholics bad rendered the State in 1789, and their hearty and cordial support at timer periods ; nor could he forget, that they had been led to hope tint a time would arrive, when, for those exertions. they Might confidently ask what they required, of the grateful recollectjon of England.— (Hear, Lear.) He could not forget how they had been taught to hope, that " a &vat coming was owl its way," to end their disabilities.; nor could he for pet how like the Israelites of old, they had followed faint and needy to the wilderness, and charmed with the prospect hope displayed before them, blessed the batten soil they trode; while their eyes were fixed on the promised land. He could not forget the disip-1 pointment they had met with when on the verge of that promised land ; yet still he could not think a Princely promise bad been made to be broken ; that the misfoi tunes of their foxefathers should be entailed upon them, and also upon their innocent posterity.— He would remind the House of the promise held out at the time of the Unios, that all civil disabilities sk tul.l he removed. The Union would never have been obtained but for the expectations of this nature, hich were excited at • that period. If such an en gagement was not proved to have been made accor ding to the letter of the law, he would say, that in spirit, a promise had been given. He did not come to ask it as that to which he was entitled from the ' letter of the law, but as that to which he was entitled from its spirit. Onifidence in the English name made • • him hope this appeal would be attended to, but if it were not, why then he would say that, in retu.ing to do so, they might depend upon it, they repealed the Union. Doing this, they would tell England and Ireland they were no longer one, hut two nations.— They would not cnly say this but they would do it ; they would make England and Ireland two nations. They would destroy their ince] poration ; it woulit be dissolved by desp::ir. They would not only make them two nations, they would make them two na tions with different, nay, with hostile interests, and engage each in acts that would tend ;o injure the other. An Union should consist of two parts ; the one should be the union of the Parliament ;—the other the union of the people. He saw the union of the Parliament, he saw the union of power, but c here was he to look for the union of the people ? Where was he to los,k for that consolidation wl''e united their interest s ?—where for that spark ss should animate the whole ?—and where for tat gigantic whole which should be ready to, stretch out its hundred alms for the service and support of the Empire ? There existed no such thing, and that there did exist no such thing was to be traced to the circumstance to which he had alluded ; to that of our not having realised the expectations which were entertained at the time of the p sing of the Union Act by the Catholics of Ireland.— The Catholics now called on them to give'those rights in which they were then led to believe they would be allowed to participate ; and the Protestants called on them also to listen to the Catholic Claims to consoli date the strength of the nation, and secure the inte grity of the empire ? Ireland had no fears for her Church, and ckprecated those pen.:l laws which were given fer her protection, as exposing her to dangsr the most imminent ; and hi th the Protestant, and Catholic religions begged that they might not be op pored to each other ; and that their common safety might not be sacrificed by Government's teal ing that bond of union which was as necessary to the Protes tant safety as the Catholic interest. He begged Gee- tlemen to consider what must follow a continuation of the Catholic disabilities. When a Government ap peared anxious to maintain itself by persecuton, it lost all hold on the affections of the people, and could only govern by coercion. Something worse than the alienation of It eland must follow. What then would it he followed by ? He must flatter them by conceal ing tie truth, but he was too honest to do so. He v mild therefore tell them it would be followed by se- pariiiion. A separatiou in fact, or a virtual separa fon would be the consequence. In either case Eng land would be undone. She would be undone, if Ire land w;thdrew from the Government of England; she would Le undone, if the disposition and the heart I of her Irish subjects were weaned from her. .Thus, whether the separation was actual or virtual, it would be eutially injurious to England. This would he fatal to us. France could not accomplish our ruin, but we' were perfectly competent to accomplish our own de struction. Ireland, in this case, must.go down to the !' grave, but the gorgeous grandeur of England must follow it to the tomb. Of population of sixteen mil lion's, they would thus strike out four millions from them, an act unparalleled in the history of farther times. If they acted thus with' an active population who were every day fi ghting fcr this country against France, they did that fir sshich they could have no excuse, but that the hand of death precipitated them to perdition. The day England signed the doom of Ireland, that day she signed her own doom. The King who sacrificed his subjects, and the people aho sacritise 'their fellow-subjects, doing this sacrificed themselves. This was unavoidable. They now held in their own hands the scale of t!le ddstinies. of the two countries. If lreland were cast out, England, remain ing in the balance, would be found wanting. En g; land would finally lose herself, after losing America and Ireland, by taxing the one and disqualiiyirg the other. They made partial and arbitrary laws, which no power could have aright to do. They denied men those privileges to which they were entitled, On g . rounds which could never justify such a measure,-,- 'lley might with equal wisdom and justice say, a man of a black complexion should not sit in Par- 1 Lament, as that a man should not be a General, I because iie Was 1 Catholic. These things, however, I vivre said f be done for the g( neral good. The ge neral good, in the modem signification of the phrase, riteant-but the exercise of the power of the State against vie happiness of the people. It was_said to be for tha general good that America was taxed (but this had , not been found to he so) and this was also said by, the disqualifications attached to the Catholics of Ireland. There were two laws, the municipel law, and the law 'of GOD. When any Parliament acted contrary tattle law and order of Gon, as expressed in his works, nr in the Bible, that Parliament exceeded kapowei s. When; a Parliament, as in such a case as the present, rested its powers on such a foundation as that which had II now been thought sufficient to deprive risen of their j rights, it in effect opposed the Autumn' ; and though it had an army of Michaels on its side, yet it struck' GOD out of its ecclesiastical proceedings, and liberty out of its policy. This system had com menced with America, and thence extended itself to It eland. With respect to the Catholic religion, there were three objections started. The first was the eu charist ; the second ee the adorations of the Virgin Mary ; the third, the; spiritual power of the Pope.— The two first contained nothing whatever in them of political moment;and ought therefore to be rejected, ' with which an enlightened Parliament ought never to interfere i he would therefore look to the third. On this he had to observe, that the Catholics had ab jured the interference of the Pope in temporal affairs. The objection lately started with respect to the sa crament of Inarriaee, was one which ought to have no weight, as marriage being but a civil contract, could not controul the law of the land. Excommu nication, which had been mentioned, had nothing to do with the subject, and no power possessed by the Consistoriel Court had the effect of making the Ca tholics other than good subjects, as a reference to the good' conduct of the Catholics in other countries would sufficiently prove. Now, with respect to the Pope's commandieg the allegiance of Catholics, and of being able at any time to detach them from their Sovereign ; he woeld ask if this were the case, how the present Pope came to be in his present situation? Did such appear to be his power in the countries of France, Germany, and Italy ? Was it such in that where he is now a prisoner ? Aye, but then it was . said in the Petition from Cambridge, that his power was greater than ever. Was such, he would ask, the case with Ferdinand of Spain ? He was a pri soner like the Pope, but would it. be contended that his power also was greater than ever ? Considered as an argument, this was absurd—was ludicrous in ' deed. He begged to ask whether or not the present Adechtistration had exacted any guard from Spain and Portugal against the influence of the Pope? If ; i not, according to the arguments he ird at home, the I country was put to an ex-pence of 4'20,000,000—f0e ! what? Why to raise the power of Fiance in those countries by means of the Pope, as it was said he was more formidable than ever; now lie was a pri soner in the bends of France. .In the Peninsula, though he had heard of no such arrangement having been made, England was seen fighting for Church ' and Shiite. Thus, while we were labouring to shew l k our attachment to bigotry, we trod on it when it . c nee is, our teat - , and 'only raised it up to oppress the se whose interest we ought to regard as identified with our own. He would contend, that as the Pope I at present was perfectly inaccessible, his spiritual powcr eves at an end, and therefore the Catholic Re lie ien was as much separated from any foreign con ! cera, arany other dissenting sect, and ought not to labour under religious disabilities, more than other dissenters. When the present situation of the P. pe ' was considered, he thought they had no right to say Ithey could not now come to such an arrangement (even in this Session) as should release the Catholics from those restrictiens of which they cones:allied He hoped they would not say now that they were ! not agreed among themselves, and that is was there ! fore of no use w go into a Committee. This he de nis.l. 1 - 12 denied that the people of England were against Catholic Ernancipatice, and seas satisfied ;no I solid objection stood in the way, hut these which rested with the }resent Crown Ministers. It wes isaid that we tolerated the Catacolic religion. Ile denied this to be the f..ct. They did not tu.eraes it; on the contrary, they punished it. %Vas he i:: An English assembly, and would it be seht that civil i disquaiifications were not a pusiisionent ? What was toleration but the extension of potter to protect the property and lives of subjects—to guard against the 1 exertions of arbitrary peewee, and to prevent taxation without representation, o gether with a security for ia free and fair trial by Jury ? The Catholics had none of these. They were not tried by their Peers,j I but by Protestant partisans, and he particularly wish.' ed this to be inqvileil into. How many instances I were there in which no Catholic could be admitted on a jury ? In which the High Sheriff was a Prote- stant partisan ? The Catholic, in ninny instances, I had not the same advantages as a foreigner. He I had not a jury half of his own persuasion, but on a question of disqualification, he was tried by a jury j of those who disqualified him. It might be said that this was ambition in the Cathclic which made him wish to be relieved from evils like these. Why', so it was, but it was merely an ambition to possess' the common rights of nature; it was the ambition of a woman not to be ravished ; it was the ambition of a man not to be murdered : and was such a feeling to be censured as ambitious ? If this, inele opinion 11 of the British Parliament, was ambition, %that must be their ideas of liberty ? He denied that the Act of the year 1793 gave the Catholics civil power, and it was another reason for . taking the subject into consi deration, that Gentlemen were so unapprised of the nature of the law with respect to Catholics. The Catholics merely called for some security against that policy which rendered the English name odious in Ireland, which made British faitte . equivocal in Ireland, and !which went to disinherit and dis qualify one fourth of the population of the Bri tish Empire. Where was the danyer of doing this ? Was it in the Eu c h ar i st ? in . Wa s it th e adoration paid to the Virgin Mary ? or did it arise from the apprelie.nsion entertained of the family j of the Pretender ? Let those who contended there was danger in giving what the Catholics claim ed, answer these questions. Let them set forth their trains of hobgoblins and witches at once.— Let them 'give some reason—some apology for ba nishing the Catholics from the enjoyment of civil rights to all eternity. To the objections urged against the Pope, he would answer, Ist, that he had at pre-.' •sept no pilwer ; 2dly, that France had no power over his disposition ; and idly, that the Roman Catholics have now no communication with him. The danger . apprehended then was not immediate, and could only be prospective. It was sow said the Catholics would 'not concede the veto, but it was to be remembered that Governmeaft might 'have had it before. They might have had the veto in 1795, in Iboo, in 1805. and in 1808. If then they had not.got the veto, the fault wes theirs. They had no right to ask where was now the veto ? If they asked him that question, his answer would be, that it was where they had put it. What remained to be done ? Would they send persons to make proselytes of the Irish ? Would they take away their arms ? Would they drive them from the army ? They were too wise to do this. What then ? Would they corainue the disqualifications to throw odium on the English name, and to alienate Ireland ? Would they seek security in a virtual separation ? He would say it was necessary to the connection between the two countries, to tell the Irish people that England was not an enemy to their pri vileges, and to tell the English people that Ireland was not adverse to than. - But when each country ! was told the Contrary, the seeds of di*ontent were sown ; the wife was induced to divorce from the . husband, and each was instigated to hate, and to annul that marriage tie in which they had been here ' tofore bound. it for the purpose of securing amity, of blending and uniting all classes and descriptions of subjects, they would found their empire upon the strong ground of mutual privileges; they would es tablish a strength which nothing could suirclue, and attach a copulation which never would desert them, not even in the last extremity.—( Hear, hear.)—He considered this a cause which might appeal to every quarter of the globe from circumference to centre, and he was certain it would live when dull declama tion was silent and forgotten. He could as soon be lieve that the navy of England would be borne away by witches—that its army would be annihilated by an equally ridiculous disaster, as Vett that House, upon any gtoundless alarm, could forget its pru dence, its wisdom, and itejustice. He found by the call of the House that there were many Gentlemen present who were not accustomed to attend, and to them he would beg to address a few words. They would be told that the people of Ireland were too barbarous to exercise such functions as the acceding to their claims would extend to them. Bat what was this ? In other words it was saying that the English Government in Ireland was a nuisance. They would be told that the Catholic religion renders d the exer cise of those functions still more dangerous. And what was this ? In other words it was saying that religion contributed to their barbarism; and the in. ference to be drawn from both was, that both should be got rid of. They would be told in addition to this, that the act of settlement precluded such a grant, but he would ask where was the clause in which such a prohibition eras contained, or where was the spirit from which it was apparent ? No clause to such an effect could be shewn, and the spirit was altogether on the opposite side. To such doc trines as those, the Catholic would answer, that it was utterly impossible to make religion the measure of empire ;--he would answer, that in the Act of Union the oath was provisional, and intended to last only till Parliament should alter it to the contrary. Those were the Nlinleers who, if they did not intro duce, at least weed for the act drawn up in this provisionary manner, which they were now so anxious to represent as fundamental and immutable. It was 1 a dect whin on the people of Ireland. He would ask why were Catholic foreigners employed in hie,l l trrtii tary situations? If all that was advanced against the professors of that religion were well founded, was it that they reserved exclusion for their own countrymen and fellew-subjects ? He would deny that, aceordine to the Constitution, this WAS a Pro testant Parller.ent : by the Act of 1793, the Com mons repre , ent;:d Catholics, for the Catholics wcrc posses:ea! ef the elective franchise. In answer to all that was said against the admission of Roman Ca ; th(3.ICS into the S mete, he would beg leave to appeal to the practice of Ministers ; he would ask them why the Irish Catholic It4as admitted into the army and Into the navy ? He would then appeal to the Ad e, ruire:s of the Navy, and the Generals of the Army, tu know how they behaved ?—(Hear, htar.)—He I would ask the public papers how many of them had died in the service ? He would ask them how many Catholic Officers had been wounded, and whether they could become Generals ?—( Hear, hear.)—He I would ask the public opinion what characters they had maintained in all tie relations of life ? he would ask the Protestant houses of Lcinster, of Ormond, and of- LateucHe, who resided amongst them, and who were therefore not only the most competent judges of their character, but the most immediately interested in any question in which they were con. cerned ; he would appeal to the hospitals which were filled with their wounded, and to the fields of Porta gal which were strewed with their dead.—(Hear, hear.)—He vettild appeal to the principles of the cons:itution against that policy, which would set men to cut each other's throats in a metaphysical, eccle siastical and unintelligible war ; he would appf•al to every standard by which human conduct could be tried against such mischievous, such malicious, and such disgusting degradation. The whole case lay in one sentence—the two countries were misted unless they were united, and the language of Ireland was, " we will have our liberties, and then our lives are at your service."--(Hear, hear.)—He concluded with moving e for a Committee to consider the state of the Laws imposing Civil Disabilities on hisMejesty's Subjects profiasing the Roman Catholic Religion." Doctor DUIGENAN said, that the claims for' which the Right Hon. Gentleman contended, could only be effected in one way, and that was by the re peal of all those laws referred to in the oaths of supre macy, by the repeal of all tests and corporation acts, and an alteration of the whole constitution horn the first establishment c f the Protestant Religion in Eng land down to the present time. The Roman Catho lics insisted upon full emancipation—not s itisfied l to wait for any gradual course, they demanded the instantaneous, sudden, and total repeal of all the acts with which they were dissatisfied. IR the reigns of Elizabeth and Charles the First, the eels of uniformity were intended to be perpetual, and in the Acnot Union with Scotland, these Acts were again recited, and declared as operative in England, Ireland, and Wales, and the town of Berwick upon Tweed. But nut only were those declared funda mental articles in the Union with Scotland, it was an article in the Union with Ireland, that the English and Ir ish Church should be the same for ever: Our modern philosophers and orators, it was true, decla red that these ought to be repealed—but be should look rather to tie Acts themselves, and the gronnds . which they were formed, than to their opinions. A ac , tier circumstance w.ts, that the siting N.:15 bound 4 ' support the Church, as by law established, yet ei pradge he was ciaded upon to sac' Mae, w htteat de!usively called Catholic Emancieation. C, tholics had' full religious liberty—titre had the omit security fru their lives and propetties, that all Wi g subjects of th... •country •possessed—and they s eaß onlh required to toke the same test ai..l oaths—if til es arced to take tl.e:n, tl.ey hose as m oa t s g. betty, an.l as touch political power. They had as mucii security for their boat ties as any subjects e l any nation on the f,ice of the valet. Could i• Ise b o ld that the subjects of France and Germany p a ,, such liberty ef action, and such !,:curi:y of projers ) ? They claimed complete equality to: auohrhe ra z E '- te —in the army, in the navy, end in the State, and that at the co; coca and hi defiance oldie two ,:c , s'lie s had uientianed. The House must see that the lu ag was obliged to swear that la .con::! inviolably ~ ;ro tain the Protestant Religion. Now if all the sectr were demolished, how could that oath be miietaiueoft The measure would not only go ag ainst t h e cam & Lion oath, but against the prociplas of sae u n i t ,. with Scotland and Ireland, and :or the purpose a t gratifying die ambitian of those pets ins .al';, wise hostile to the State. He should prs seiuly teat! .4 prG44 to spew that no person could be a true Rom in Ca. tholic who did not feel such hostility. It mos ten• tended, that they had a right to ieligintis yet who were those hi whose .favour this right was insisted on ?—the most intolerant itligi. us body that bad ever appealed on the face of the earth. They were more intolerant than the Mahornetans them. selves. What was it that established the Inqui,:tio a ? What was it that dictated the very last Coustitutioa published by the Cones in Spain. ? It was then do. termined that the Cat'oilic . religion should be the only religion of the State, and the only one tolerated. The Decrees of the Councils were almost matters of faith with the followers cf ti.is religion—and inane of those Decrees, it was set down that, who they were weak, motives of policy should restran them, but when they were powerful, it was at theism,* discretion to opprest those ale, differed from thew in faith. In Ireland, they did not meet with any disturbance to their religicus tberty—what right then had they to petition for what dery enjoyed ? He was so tar a fi lend to religious liberty when it was not hostile to the State, drat he thou g ht aft the people bad a right to. possess it—but in belied it was never denied to them. The second giound npoa which the advocates of the measure went, was the of the numbers, wealth, and power of the Cohorts* of Ireland. On asscriion it was stated, and nothing but assertion was adduced in support of it, that there were fur millions cf Catholics in Ireland, and that the Protestants did nut amount to one in ten of this population. There was now a Bill in Parliament to which he was a great friend, which would go to as. certain the real state of the population. But taking Ithis at present irom die best source, that of the mi. culation made by the collectors of hearth-money, it would amount to a number much interim la the parishes-of Lisburn and Glanevie, the most ma nufactut ing and populous parts of the whole country, 'they would find, taking in children and all, that tho calculation was about five and a . quarter. What must he tho w-Ate of it in miserable hots? Upon the ,whole they would find reasoti to cunclude, that thew. pulation of the whole kingdom did not exceed three millions five hundred thousand. On a c,alculatioatakea 'oby a Roman Catholic Bishop in the year 1652, tha. population was estimated at two millions, one mill** three huh„ red and fifty thousand of which were Ito man Catholics. It was seppwcd that since that period they co iW not have increa , ed to so gnat. a number, especially when they considered the cot:smut mire ' lions hoot that country were incredible. In Brim they had not added more than eight millions to d* population in die same space of time. For all this mighty shay; of numbers there was nothing but Is. semen on the other side, and he hoped that mai. sertion was as good as another. With. *sped la their wealth, it was stated at a prodigious rate. The Gentlemen who alluded to it confined their obsess. Lions to personal property alone, and for a very gat reason, because they were aware that they had se real prop. ty. He would venture to say, that ofie real propel ty of this kingdcAm they did not pow* one out al forty-nine parts ; and to the curnianno trial property, they had not a tenth pan. The Right Honourable Gentleman had said that this measure carried with it the sense of the Protestants of Ireland. It was our there were many petitions on the table. but he was aware that applications had been made to several Grand Juries tor the purpose. and wautei as soon as they were prorosed. Other seeps woe then adopted, and petitions %itNe surrept,ticusly sent ' about. 'those petitions received sa me cotzten Ance, particularly from the Gentlemen of t he Opposi tion. —On- person was threatened, if he did not sign the fire Petition, that his house and goods would beset 1 to ; and every poor Protestant in a retail business is I Dublin was instantly threatened with the less of his business if he did not sign the Petition. This r..a. tion was kept in a private room in the Co Coffeehouse of Dublin, and if any person dewy a to nsTer i e l d , hien was n a e s g k a e t d i v i e f , he i t w w o a u s ld w7she n Its wa ln t d . h if ina. he . Beside,;, the Gentlemen who had ticn had stated, that the signatures were not is the out. lie knew original hand - waiting, but all copi ed ;;;rw ly tar e& that there was one most respecta ble . and , etiaistersbe o rPtal d would contend that not one in a hundred tt5.c.00,11.0.-. of it, but one voice was of little co res : testatits of Ireland would sign such a Nut . There were sortie Dissenting the North of Ireland who were turn ed fur . meeting-houses, and locked out for ever,_ done so. To attempt to impose such thing 211 a. ante of the people of Ireland W 45 gfeeb which he was confident the Right Hon. (.7 tern mom which they came. , • ki g in tha were not above three to two, Li . ._l.l. wousil not have practised Rom •u the csisro ve classes and all ; so much for their %calm 71.* hers, and their numbers was the strori ges listed on. tst 7..... s Let the House rdiect up on 'see if in any other country the lo wer nom' is i 4 called the nation. Protestants. si> • maintai ned, theyhad were th le e to ke ar " l79: 9lr. A! were c i ha n some tk measure saus preparing,rprisedatthatirt: knew I ,'