Star. — London, England, 1826-11-25 00:00:00

~. • 1 W.VI as W f I' ‘. ,! 'cement held out to make such returns House open to many ' informalities.— If the plan which 'the House, now adopted were to be acted upon" lie thought it would be an easy matter Co keep a great proportion of Members out of their teats till next March, and at that Lime perhaps the objections raised against them would be silenced ; and they could then take their seats months after the usual dine. That system of privation ought not tb be tolerated, led he (.Pdr. A) was of opinion that those only were to be considered as duly returned, whose in. dentures were received at the Crown Office, a nnezed.an the-King's writ. Oar ancestors, the Han. Member aid, were of the same opinions/11*one be then stabbed the House eo adopt. In the time of James the Font. a writ had been returned for the borough of Pomfret mith two indentures annexed to It (one brvirtue of the precept, the other by virtue of the writ) but only one of theiewas considered as correct, the one raised by virtue of the precept. He would not trouble the House any longer, and he sincerely hoped they would establish the two Gentlemen who had been returned (after the manner appointed by the law of the country) in their rights. The Hon. Member then moved that the names of ..Mr. N'lCinnon and Mr. Gordon be erased from the recoluis of the House. The Itsisolution having been put from the Chair, . Mr. W. WYNN as,ored the Hon. Member that he would have interrupted him before if be had been aware of the re olution his motion intended to bring under the notice of the House., He understood the complaint he intended to bring forward was embodied in a breach of privilege of the House. There was a remedy already prepared for the complaint the Hon. Gentleman alluded. to, which consisted in referring petitions relating to it to a Committee of the House. If he (Mr. W. Wynn) tightly understood the purport of the Hen. Gentleman's resolution, he certainly would advise him (on the event of his succeeding in getting it adopted) to move 'for leave to bringin a Bill to repeal all the laws the House bad ever passed on such subjects. As to•the cases of disputed returns which the Hon Gent. stated to have been decided instanter by the House, he begged leave to assure him of the face of, their happening before a Corn ' mittee of Ps ivileges had even been thought of. It was but fair also that the two Gentlemen, whose names the House were solicited to erase, should have an opportunity of defending themselves. He knew full well, that in the time of James I. the House decided upon all cases of controverted Returns without any appeal to Commit tees. In the year 1690, during the reign of King Wit ham, the Househad no Committees of Appeal in cases like the one the Hon. Member alluded to, and at pre sent, if the House bad the jut isdiction, they would refer all controverted Returns, as they did in the case of the Borough of Liskeard, to a Committee. The Hon. Gent. had stated many facts, (he, Mr. Wynn, did not wish to doubt their veracity,) and it would be necessary to ex amine witnesses at the Bar of the House, which would be taking up the time of the House unnecessarily,when ill this could be done in a Committee up stairs. No sufficient . grounds had been given to authorise the House to erase the names of these Gentlemen, the facts which had been adduced to effect this bad not been confirmed, and it would he much better to refer the whole proceedings to a Committee. This was the best opportunity the House afforded for discrimina tion in cases of double Returns: The )egitimate way would be to pure those who made the irregula, Returns. rather than the phesons who were thus irregularly returned. • The Right Hon. arktlensan concluded by objecting to the proposed Resolution, and intreated the House to pause before they did a thing which would establish itself as a dangerous precedent. Mr. LOCKHART agreed entirely with the Right Hon. Getitlemaa who last sat down as to the reference of Election Returns to Committees. In cases where there was any probability of illegality in the Return, the Committees were well adapted, but then it was requisite for the case submitted to their consideration to be an actual Return. But in the case alluded to by hit Hon. Friend, and then before the House, there was no Return, therefore it became the duty of the House to interfere, for it could not be received into a Committee —(Hear). The Hon. Gent. then remarked on the great inconvenience which would of necessity arise from every proceeding similar to the case before the House being seterred to a Committee. Not only would it, as it ap pealed to him, unnecessarily preclude Gentlemen legally returned from taking their seats for a long period, but it would also subject them to exactions, labours, and expenses. He therefore maintained that the whole law of the country was favourable to the decision to which his Honourable Friend, who had introduced the subject, was desirous the House should come ; for it was evident on the fate of the transaction, that this was no return at all, and therefore should' be dealt with as such. An examination of the proceedings at the election of a Paliament, could not but confirm the view which he had taken of the subject. The writs were issued from the Crown Office to the different Sheriffs. Each Sheriff, upon the receipt of the writ,fmated his precept to the Returning Men within his jurisdiction, those Returnlng Officers annexed their return's to the precepts they bad received, and the Sheriffs, after attaching the returns delivered to them, to the original writs, forwarded them to the Crown Office. From these considerations the Resolution proposed by his Hon. Friend seemed to him the best way to prevent sham returns,andbe, therefore should suppoit it--(Hear). Mr. B ItOUG H A M apprehended that the observations of the Right Hon. amt. opposite (Mr. Wynn), must have arisen from a misconception of the argument ad. duced by his Hon. Friend (Mr. Abercromby), in support of the Resolution he had moved for the adoption of the House. He (Mr. Brougham) was most anxious not to discuss this matter in any but a most friendly way—to talk and reason over it with perfect calmness, and a mu tual desire to do only that which was right, in order th they might arrive at a just and satisfactory conclusion. The Right Honoutable Gentleman seemed to think that to adopt the Resolution proposed would be to mate. rially encroach upon, if not virtually to repeal, the Glenville Act. If such could be the effect of the measure of his Honourable Friend, he (Mr. Brougham) would at once exclaim, in GoD's name, let it'be thrown aside! The Grenville Act was a most wise and beneficial one, and it did honour to the House which passed it. It presented a noble instance of one branch of the Legislature voluntarily giving up a part of its pecu• liar privileges, for the security and benefit of the public —it presented the spectacle of the House of. Commons offering a Bill to the other breeches of the Legislature, for the restricting of its own powers, because by such restriction it made more solid the freedom of election. No one, therefore, who wished his country well, would wish to interfere with the spirit of such a law-(Hear, hear). But it would surely, he imagined, be confessed by every one, that cases might arise in which it was the dirty of the House at once to come to a decision with rut compelling the parties to suffer all ti e delay and x?ense occasioned by their having to appear before an Liection Committee. It appeared to him to be abso lutely necessary that the House should retain that power, for if it did not, incalculable inconvenience and mischief might be occasioned by sham returns. The Right Hon. Gentleman had remarked on the difficulty of the House receiving evidence in this case; he spoke as if statements had been ma'e by the Hon: Mover, the correctness or incorrectness of which could be ascet - tained only by a minute inquiry, and the examination of evidence; and here it was that be (Mr. Brougham) conceived that the Right Hon. Gentleman labouted under a mistake. His on. Friend had made no asser tions—had recited no facts which required evidence to sustain them. He had argued that the Gentlemen _ . reamed in the resolution were in reality not returned at all, and that was the real fact. _ k was sts plai9 as the book before them, it respired no other support dial the entry which appelarekin that book. It was then stated that tilre was sent to the Crown Office the regular writ with an indenture properly annexed to it, and that besides diet legal and proper return, there was also sent another return, which was not annexed to the writ at all. (He repeated his desire to argue the question - in the most fiien.lly way, in order that it might be settled to the satisfaction of all parties.) That then was the substance of the entry which appeared in the book be fore them, and he would at once proceed to consider the case of Litard, and shew the very natural dif ference which existed between the two cases.. It was true the book sheaved, at the same time a certificate of another return having been sent, but not annexed to the writ. This was of no use, it was as so much waste paper, for there could be no return unless annexed to the writ. He wished to argue this subject calmfy, as they would' in a private chamber or in an Election Com mittee, and not as a matter of political controversy.— In the Liskeard case, his Right Hon. Friend would permit him to remind him of the opinion of a high authority upon the constitutional law, and of one who did not oppose the Grenville Act. He looked upon the declaration of Mr. Pitt, as a convincing proof that the House was as competent to decide in such cases as 'a Committee. He (Mr. B.) said, that the House went too far in holding that the Liskeard case came• s within the Grenville Act, and should be referred ta a Committee. In that case the Returns were produced, and one pur ported to be what it was, a regular Return—the other to be an impossible Return, for it ran, ia We the Mayor, &c." and it was not signed. It was a nullity, and yet the House held that tt was a Return, and sent it to a Committee against the opinion of Mr. Pitt, with. whom .—giving so great a man the treed a his approbation with as much humility as he would venture to express his disapprobation—he agreed, believing him to be, right, and the House wrong. But between the two cases there was a material difference, for in that there was prima facie evidenceof a Return, the Return being annexed to the writ ; in this-'—and here was the dif ference—there was no such evidence, for the Return was not annexed to the writ. In such cases the House must have the power of exercising some discretion, limited by as close bounds as they pleased, but some discretion was absolut?ly necessary for their own pro tection and defence. Was this Or was it not a double Return? Was the Return annexed to the writ? No— and this beio , g the proper test of a Return, what was returned as such could not be held to be a Re turn. But the Right Honourable Gentleman said that it was immaterial whether the Return was annexed to the writ or not; if so, how did they deal with the Sheriff in .the Liskeard case? They voted him guilty of a breach of privilege, put him in custody of the Serjeant at Arms, and after being detained three or four days, he was Woolen to the Bar, where he was reprimanded, and then discharged. Was this an immaterial use less formality ? The House punished, because the 'Sheriff sent a double return, by the annexation of both to the writ. If the annexation of the writ was imma terial, bring up the Sheriff to the Bar and punish him. It was most material, as his Hon. and Learned Friend contended, because it was the only test of the return. What would be the situation of this place, if such returns were held to• be valid, and made the subject of inquiry before Election. Com mittees? Why, with a few sheets. of parchment, he could paralyse half the House. He could at once exclude 100 Members by send ing to the Sheriffs of . every county mock returns for as many Mem bers uhe pleased, which would be sunned to the writs. • Mr. W YNN said, Not without the Sheriff's consent. Mr. BROUGHAM—But if the parchments were forwarded to the Sheriffs, they must, for their own security, send them to the Crolen Office. Here then would be 200 parchments, repeeienting the return of other persons, and each of these the Right Hon. Gent. in his zeal for the Grenville Act, in his anxiety to com ply with all its provisions, would send to Election Committees. Neglecting the spirit, he would act to the letter of the law, and thus be bound to take them all as double returns, so the 200 returns would become double returns, and 400 Members would be at once excluded, and sometimes one would wish to see such an operation performed—(a laugh), and not a single Member could take his seat, till the whole ceremony, expense, and delay of a petition, a Committee, and Re port, were guns through. Was it rational to allow themselves to be so tied down by the Grenville Act, or rather by the Right Hon. Gentleman's gloss upon it, as, not to be enabled to exercise any discretionary power in cases of necessity ? The House ought to defend and protect itself against an abuse to which there would be no limit or no remedy but the tedious and expensive one of a Committee. • He, therefore, begged them to guard against this inconvenience, by taking the annexation of the return to the writ as a prinsafacie evi dence of a good retuin, till the merits of the ease were gone into. Mr. HUSKISSON said, that nothing was further from his intention, on entering the House, than taking any part in the discussion then before it; but as he had been so personally appealed to by the Hon. Gent. -who had just. sat down, he cold not avoid doing so.— He would, however, point out a difference between the case of the borough of Lislyeard and that before the House. On that election, the returning officer had de clared, that the majority of votes which were proper to be received were in his (Mr. Huskisson's) favour. There were other parties who bad tendered their votes whom the officer did not think entitled to do so, and the nuni bers .of those who so tendered themselves exceeded those of the voters for him (Mr. H.) His return had been signed by the Mayor ; another return was made by the other parties, to which the signatures of the parties who tendered their votes were affixed. That return had, however, been received by. the Under Sheriff of Corn wall for that year (no doubt very strangely and unac countably), and sent op to the Crown Office. It was contended in his case, that there was no necessity to refer it to an Election Committee, on the ground that the House had nothing to do with the/return, but that it merely came to the Crown Office, and that the second return was of no avail. The House decided that the retut n was not right—in shot t,that it was no return at all : stilt it could not be got rid of without a reference to an election pe. titiou ; but there the case was simple, because the return was not annexed to the writ. In the present case, however, there were two returns. • After some desultory remarks from Mr. Twtss, Mr. Aszacaost am, and Mr. Wraw, Mr. Secretary CANNING said, he was by no means certain what his opinion might be on mature delibera tion. But if the House voted at once for the motion, they would decide the motion without the possibility of revision. 411 he asked was time to inform himself on the subject. It was one to which no general principle could be made applicable. His original intention was, to propose that the Clerk of the Crown should be called upon to explain the matter ; but he now saw that that Aould be considered a prejudging of the quesi n on the other side ; the argument of the Honourable anti Learned Gentleman being, that, the Saw eugltt to Ankle on what was already before thews: On the whole, he conceived that the best, course would be to adjourn the. debate to another day, in order thit Honourable Members might be better prepared to come to a deci. sion upon the subjeck 4, • Mr. ABERCROMBIE readily concurred in the Right Hon. Gentleman's proposition. In order to re lieve the Right Hon. Gentleman from the difficulty which he had stated, with respect to the course that it was advisable to pursue, he would state, that if evi• dent that something had been done in the office of the Clerk of the Crown which ought not to have been done ; and, therefore, that there was a prima facie case for requiring the. Clerk of the Crown to explain the circumstances. Mr. Secretary CANNING accordingly moved, that the Debate should be adjourned to Wednesday, and that the Clerk of the Crown should attend on that day. After a few words from Mr. 0110110UAli, who agreed that this was the best course to pursue, Mr. Canning's minion was agreed to, CORN ACTS.-..INDRAINITT BILL. Mr. HUSK ISSON moved, p Mat the House do resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House, to take into consideration the Corn Acts." The House. accordingly, being in Committee, _ _ Mr. HUSKISSON rose, and said, that as the Minis• ten of the Crown had felt it their duty to advise a min.. sure, without the authority of law, he would now, with the permission of the Committee, state the 'grounds on which that advice had been given; and it was the more necessary that he should be early in doing so, as the period of the year at which his Majesty called Parlia ment together had been mainly determined by the ne cessity of receiving their sanction to that exercise of royal authority, which he then proposed to bring under their consideration. He thought, that on the part of those who had given this advice, he was bound to take the earliest opportunity of laying before Parliament the motives by which they had been influenced, and the whole of the considerations by which their decision was governed. This he considered a duty which he owed, not only to Parliament, but to the public, and to the private individuals,-who, acting under the authority of the Order in Council, had been instrumental in carrying its provisions into effect. If it should be the pleasure of Parliament to grant that indemnity which was sought at their hands, should the Legislature consider, that, under the peculiar circumstances of the country, this infraction of established rules, and limits of authority, had not been unnecessarily committed, so far horn having the effect of introducing a mischievous prece dent, he was sure, that to future times it would never operate injuriously. They owed it, also, to vhemselves (his Majesty's Ministers) to make this statement, and to apply for this indemnity, since, as was well known, they could not escape from the legal consequences of their conduct, otherwise than by such a Bill as he pro- posed to introduce. Again, in this point, they owed it more peculiarly thus to apply to Parliament, on ac count of those who, in subordinate capacities, acted ministerially in the introduction of Foreign Corn into this country. The Ist of September was the date of the Order of. Council, under which grain from abroa was introduced. At that period, most of the Honour able Members who then beard him were resident in the country; and they could, from their own observations throughout their respective neighbourhoods, bear testi mony to the fact, that the state of the harvest had been throughout such as to justify the course which his Ma. jesty's Government had taken. For this, and for other equally strong reasons, it would be needless for hint to go much at length into the topics which he pro posed to bring under the consideration of the Commit. tee. In no year, to which'his own experience reached, had there been a harvest, respecting which concurrent reports so generally agreed, as had been the case respecting the harvest of the present year. The wheat of this year certainly was an average crop ; barley, in some places, was not near an average, and oata very deficient ; and beans and peas were so likewise—nay, even still more deficient. Late in the month of July, and early in the month of August, the prices of those articles were rising in every market. - In the middle of June, when the consumption of the crop of the former year might naturally have been expected to elevate prices to thehighest point of the year, oats certainly were high, as compared with other years—they were 225.11 d. This was the average price. On the 4th of August they ,exceeded 275. 3d. and na the 11 th of that month they were still at the same rate, 275. Scl. and for the two weeks ending on the 15th of August they were 265. 6d. - which was a priCe 18d. above the rate at which, under the law as it now stands, they could have been imported from foreign countries. His Majesty's Go. vernment thought it expedient to wait during the . two remaining weeks of August, though on the 18th of that motth prices had risen to 28s. Sd. on the 25th to 295. 4d. anP6n the week ending the Ist o‘Septensber, they were up to SOs. This Very high rate was the price paid for that grain at the precise period of the year when, of all others, it should be most abundant. After the Ist of September prices rose, and rose rapidly in every market, and more especially, as might be expected, in those districts where oats furnished the chief food of the people. Under those circumstances, taking into consi deration the reports which were then daily arriving' from the North of Europe, the rising of the demand for oats everywhere, and the prospect of great deficiency in the food of cattle 'for the ensuing winter, it did appear —it did most strongly appear to his colleagues and him-1 self—that they should most grossly betray the trust re posed in them, by his Majesty and Parliament, if they hesitated for a single moment in securing the country, as far as such security could be obtained, from the pos sibility of suffering under a scarcity of food. No cir• cumstances were wanting to supply them with the most full and ample justification of the conduct, which, after mature reflection, they bad deemed it proper to pursue. The accounts at that time from Lancashire, and from Ireland, were calculated to excite the utmost alarm—not merely alarm, but despair and despondency. During the critical period when the drought so long prevailed ; there were the strongest conceivable reasons for apprehending that the potatoe crop would be unusually deficient; and had there not fallen at that time, so seasonable a supply of rain, having as it had, the effect of turning what might have been a crop the most calamitously deficient, into one singularly rich and abundant, it would be impos sible to contemplate the probable result, without the inmost apprehension and dread. He declared, that during the whole of his experience, never did the country appear in a sttuation more alarming. To add to the grounds of apprehension, the hay crop, in the richest parts of E 'gland, was in a condition to call forth fears of the utmost scarcity, .and the fact was, that at the season of the year in question, such was the miserable state of vegetation, that it WAS absolutely necessary to feed cattle with rem fodder, as in the depth of winter. In such a condition of the • country, with .ucb prospects, could there be the Alightest imitation M taking any step that Might be requisite for stinting do the country a supply of the first necessary of exist. ence? Could his Majesty's Mint , t rs. for a single moment entertain a doubt th ft their first duty *as, at whatever risk, to guard against the impending scarcity, by the admission of peas, bean , , , and grain. —The statements he had made, verified is they must have been by the knowledge, and obset volion -of:many Honourable Gentlemen preset tjully warranted him in asserting that, had they waited till the_lsth-of Nevem. ber, when by law' the ports might . Ifivilieen opened, the conseqnences would probably have been most cala. mitous. From the rapid rise of prices before theist of September—their continued elevation subsequent to that period—the condition of the crops at home-and the prospects of supply from abroad, he had not the slightest difficulty in saying, that the Miniver who should hesitate to advise the admission of foreign grain, would be unworthy equally of the favour t.f the Monarch, add of that fair and liberal confidence which is reposed in the Ministers of the Clown while Parliament is not sitting. He put it to the Com mittee, whether it could be for a moment thought, that any man deserved to be trusted by the Crown, or supported by Parliament, who could for a single in stant hesitate to choose between a breach of the lase on the one hand, or the risk, nay the certainty, of famine on the other. Having submitted to the Committee these observations, he trusted that he had said enough to. justify the measure that had been adopted, so far as it related to removing the prohibition, which would have excluded grain until the 15th of November, and he would have contented himself with having said thus much, had that measure been confined to simple re moval; but thce wa's another feature of the case which required notice—he alluded to the duty imposed on the grain admitted, or rather, he should say, undertaken to be paid thereon. The advisers of the Crown, on this occasion, had departed as little as possible from the spirit of the existing Corn Laws; they required the parties importing to pay certain duties—that is, the Or. der in Council imposed upon the importers the necessity' of entering into an engagement to pay a specified duty, provided that duty should be sanctioned by Parliament and, in pursuance thereof, bonds had been entered into; therefore, the Act necessary to be passed on the present oc casion should not merely indemnify the parties who in curred this responsibility, but should, if Parliament took the view of the subject which he did, give power to the Crown to recover those duties. Hon. Gentlemen might differ as to the amount of duty to be imposed ; he h.(' merely to state that the amount fixed by the Order in Council was 2s. as a permanent duty, and 2s. a, a tem pantry duty for the first three months— their (Alen throughout was, that the amount imported for the - Brit these months might equal the exigencies of the cut: k try. It was a case in which Parliament should not impedein demnity, but rather encourage and sanction similar con duct on like occasions. The Committee would.ohserve that the Order inCouncil did not impose the duty ; it oaly required the party to enter into a bond to comply wi.h the duty, if Parliament should think fit to sanction it. Hit Majesty's Government felt, that it would be - a gross and. culpable violation of the first principles of the constitu, tioa•to have done otherwise, and he trusted chat the , House would give them credit for being incapable of giving ;such advice. He need scarcely add, that could . they be guilty of a suggestion so culpable, no P. of the House of Brunswick would accept it at their hands. In consequence of these arrangements, bonds were entered into, conditioning for_the payment of those ditties, as airindy stated. After the information which must necessarily be in the possession of every Hon. Member of that House, it would be scarcely necessary for him to say, that, if the admission of foreign corn had been postponed to the 15th of November, prices would have risen greatly beyond 30s. On the subject of the amount of the duty, he would observe, that he thought it should not have exceeded 25.; for had 41. been im• posed, there could have been but little doubt, that the importers would have waited until the 15th of Novem ber, and taken their chance of being then able to intro. duce it at the nominal duty of 4s. per quarter. In con firmation of this, he would observe, that of the quantity imported, 680,000 quarters of wheat, 150,000 were actually overheld, the owners declining to pay the duty of 2s. and rather desiring to take their chance on the 15th of Nov. In the last week, the prices were 295. and 30s. in 13 or 14 Counties out of the 24, from which he had received reports; and - these reports, he could inform the Committee, were ftoin Counties where the great mass of the population were in a considerable degree depend ant on oats for their food—amongst which might be included Durham,Cumberland, Nor thumberland, Ches ter, Gloucester, andiaincashire, and a few others. In Lancashire the Vice was Ws. Under all these cir cumstances, he trusted hefted made out a case sufficient to . justify his Majesty's Ministers in taking off the prohibition as they had done, and in securing the country front the, dangers by which it was threatened —dangers, from which, he trusted the decision of the House would encourage the advisers . of the Crown, at all times, to guard the country from similar ones. What, ie addition to the indemnity, he intended to conclude with proposing to the, committee, was, that the duty specified by the Order in Council should continue till. the 16th Feb. when the next averages would be struck, and, in the mean time, permitting corn, on the payment of that duty, to be introduced as it had been done since the issue of the Oriler in Council. He felt that he should waste the time of the Committee were he to dwell at greater length upon the considerations which he was thus called upon briefly to suggest to them ; he would only add, that if the prices were SOs. in the harvest time, ; could they now, at this season of the year, hesitate in adopting the- resolutions which he had intimated his , intention of proposing ?• When they looked at the price of grain generally, and of wheat in particular—when ; they considered the scarcity of food for cattle, and for the great mass of the population—they would concer . with him in thinking, that not only had a s ound' dt!- . .. cretion been exercised as to the past, but that a corm.' nuation of the system would be highly expedient and necessary as-to the future. He concluded by moving t t h w a o t r th em e i p la a t n km ies ". airi e da d g ech the ra and acting under the same, should be indemnified; and the other ord tory v a in the cou op n in d i rof o t f h t e h l e st C sep om t m em ict b e: ' recommending the admission of foreign corn to be permitted, on : payment of the duties specified in the said Order. . . Sir E. KNATCHBULL, in giving his concurrence to these .resolutions, begged not to be understood as acting at all in discordance with the former opinions be had expressed on the subject: He was convinced that every circumstance which could be designed to justify the Government in adopting the measure in question, , had been most satisfactorily made out. 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