Star. — London, England, 1826-11-22 00:00:00

• ( -r• imam h em sway danger with which It was threatened. and la mow It from every evil which is abw actually suffered. He now begged leave to second the modes for the Address. Mr. BROUGHAM said, that it had often fallen to his lot to complain of the modern practice of withholding from the Members of that House all information of the contents of the King's Speech. He recollected when the practice seks—to communicate to both oides of the House, withoht distinction, the leading topics of the Speech----a plactice which, however irregular, was, he mtht be allowed to say, attended with very considerable convenience. Often as be had urged this topic, how ever, of this he .was. deprived by the contents of the Speech. He could not expect to be listened to, no man could preserve a grave face if he were heard to corn 'plain of not having had the opportunity of two or three aLrys previous knowledge, in order to meditate upon contents of a Speech, which was composed from beginning to end of blanks • which confined itself to saying absolutely nothing,-this was the character 'of the Speech, and the appearance of the House, even if he might be permitted to allude to that, and still more the language of the Hon. Members who bad so ably moved and seconded the Address, proved that such was the general opinion entertained of it.— Now let it not be thought that he meant to find fault with the framers of the Speech—the system was to con sider the King's Speech, merely as a practice of decent civility, and accordingly to make it say as little as pos. Bible, and the only observation that could be made was, that the system had in this instance attained to an ex ti aordinary degree of perfection. He confidently ex pected that by and by the practice of opening the Ses sion by a Speech from the Throne would be altogether discontinued, as a useless, and he did not mean to speak harshly, an unseemly ceremony. The Honourable Members who had moved and seconded the Address, had been compelled to escape from the nothingness of the Speech ; It offered no points upon which they could fix, and they had no reserve but in digression.— His Hon. and Learned Friend was, like himself, a mem ber of that profession, which is supposed to endow who ever belonged to it with the faculty of making a speech with or without a subject ; yet without digressing from the King's Speech, he had found it impossible to make nnything of his task. It presented, indeed, a point of contrast as well as a point of resemblance to the coun try, which they had heard described as being fertile as well as Sat.—(Laughter).—Upon one point of the Speech he thought it necessary to remind his Hon. and Learned Friend of that rule or maxim of the law, which said that deception is apt to lurk ander generalities. His Hon. and Learned Friend had expressed some alarm that retrenchment was about to be carried to IC dan £elous length. He had less experience of King's Speeches •+tt}d of estimates than himself, or he would not have had his apprehensions excited by professions so vague and ge neral as those of the Speech,that the estimates were likely , to be too low. For himself,he should have remained quite free from any alarm of that nature, even if the Speech had contained the most positive and distinct pledge that rigid economy should be introduced into our establish ments. They were told, indeed, that the estimates should be as low as the exigencies of the country would admit, which was saying just as much and no more than had always been professed, even in the most extravagant times. He was desirous that his Honourable Friend • should be comforted, and he could assure him that even if the Speech bad been full of the strongest pro fessions, the most solemn and unequivocal pledges that the strictest economy was about to prevail—that the wishes and the necessities of the country were for once `to be consulted—be might still have remained free from alarm, and that the very first page of the very 6r at esti mates laid before the House would be sufficient to convince him that there was aa such danger as he ap prehended; and to stew him what was the value of such professions upon an occasion, and in sach a place. —Among the various omissions of the Speech, the fist he should notice was one which had been ill sup plied by one of the digressions of his Honourable Friend—he meant the subject of Ireland; and another was this very subject of economy. It did strike him that the welfare, and even the preservation of the country, urgently demanded that the affairs of Ireland be seriously considered, and he was persuaded that every man in the country felt as he did upon the subject. Was it not then an inexcusable omission, that from the beginning to the end of the Speech the name of Ireland was not mentioned? This circumstance strongly re minded him of a King's Speech which was made at the commencement of the American war. At that day Ame rica was the great subject which engrossed public atten tion; the name of America quivered upon every man's bp, but in the Ying's Speech America was not once noticed, eit her by name or by allusion. So was Ireland omitted at the present day: In the case of America nothing favourable to her was either intended or under stood by the omission. He had heard that the first man who promulgated in America the account of this Speech was cast into prison as a satirist and libeller, and till the official intelligence arrived, his report was not believed. So at the present day in Ireland, when it is reported that the Royal Speech has omitted all mention of that country, no man, without authentic proof, will find it possible to believe the assertion. He should have failed in his duty if he bad suffered one day to pass without protesting against the omission, or without declaring his expectation of shaving a good reason for that omis sion. The best reason which could be given, the reason which he hoped to hear, would be a firm resolution on the part of Government to do jus tice to that ill treated and unfortunate country.— As to retrenchment, it might perhaps be said that it was time enough to advert to that subject; but from the vague generality of the Speech, and from reports that were abroad, and which were certainly to some extent confirmed by outward and visible signs, he was led to expect that p r op os i t i ons were to b e made which sa voured of anything rather than of economy; which propositions, if brought forward, he doubted if they could be carried in that House; but of this at least he was certain, that they could not be carried without drawing down upon them the loud and general repro liation of the people. The distress, not of the raanufac twers only, but of the agricultural classes also,.ought sorely to deter the Government from hazarding such propositions. Of that distress he would now only say, that it had been ascribed in a great measure to causes which so far from being the true ones, had been rather the causes of mitigation, and had af forded whatever had existed in the nature of a set off to the general pressure ot calamity. But be the causes of distress what they may, one means of alleviation was in their power, that was retrenchment—the repeal ot noxious taxes,—the abolition of every useless expense, and it was one which the people of England had a tight, and they had a duty to enforce. In the present csicumstances of the country, it was imperative upoill them to cat down to the lowest point ivory Wary, civil, military, and naval, leaving set a • farthing of, that revenue so hardly wrung, although cheerinlly paid, from an impoverished and distressed people, to be unnecessarily expended. Let them do this, and they will satisfy the people of England. Give them, then, the satisfaction of knowing that, whilst they suffer under the pressure of unbeatable distress, you will not fail to 'do all that can be done for its alleviation. Talk of palaces—talk of architectural or. nansents--..why, if they bad the feelings of aßritish House of Commons, of the men who, in former days, have composed it, they must know that the purest ornaments whisk architccture can of will be unlidalketlignincee, whilst the people of England are In distress. He bad leaseilk Me Amy te say thus much ; and whatever obloquy atiebt be east upon him, whatever might be thought of his conduct In any qquarter, be mold not on the first meeting of a new Parliament act atberwfse than be bad done, when the Speech from the Throne maintained an abso. late silence =tat great questions of giving Ireland her rights, mid 'forded no satisfactory assurance of the adoiltioa of that economy in the expenditure of Government, which the exigencies of the State so imperiously required. Mr. Secretary CANNING : I am really, Sir, some what at a loss to know what the Honourable and Learned Gentleman requires, when he speaks of the balrenness of information in the Speech from the Throne, and of the neces s i t y o f amp lifi cat i on under which, he says, the Honourable Mover and Seconder of the Address felt themselves hi consequence. Nor can I exactly understand the justice of the complaint which we have heard in such loud intonations from the Hon. and I.earned Gentleman with respect to the discon tinuance of theancient usage of communicating the in tended contents of the Royal Speech on the day before its delivery from the Throne. I undoubtedly recollect, that during the early period of my experience in Par liament, it was the custom, the night before the cow mencement of a Session, to read to such Membas as might think proper to assemble to bear it, the Speech with which the King's Ministers had advised his Ma jesty to open the Session. Various inconveniences, how ever, which resulted from - that practice, have long oc casioned its discontinuance; nor can I now understand the tendency of the complaint made by the Honourable and Learned Gentleman; nor conjecture what advan tage would have been derived from bringing the Speech prematurely before the public. Let it, also, Sir, be re collected, that, with the discontinuance of a communi. cation of the intended Speech, a few hours before its delivery, has grown up another custom, which must materially counteract any evil, if evil there be, resulting from such discontinuance ; namely, that it is not now usual to insert in the Speech any passages which may call in the Address for any pledge by the House of the precise course which they may deem it expedient to adopt ; and, therefore, that, in the present days, the Speech requires nothing in the Address beyond an or dinary end courteous reciprocation of good dispositions. If the Honourable and Learned Gentleman thinks there is anything in the Address which will preclude any Hon. Gentleman who may assent to it from taking whatever Parliamentary course he may deem most ad visable with respect to any of the important questions that may come under our discussion, •he opposes it on fair and intelligible grounds. But it is notorious that that is not the case; and that on this, the first day of the first Session of a new Parliament, no attempt whatever has been made to pledge beforehand those who may concur in the Addles:, to the support of any measures which his Majesty's Ministers may think ie. their duty to propose or advocate. There really never was a Speech from the Throne which, in compliance with the modern usage to which I have been adverting, less distinctly called for any such pledge than the Speech which is now under our consideration. The truth is, Sir, that Parlisunant has been assembled at the present season, which, especially since the Union, is un doubtedly a very inconvenient period of the i year, not for the purpose of precipitating any of those important discussions which require the fullest attendance and the meat patient deliberation, but because, in de fence of the laws and of the Constitution of the Country, it has been thought right to call Parliament together to provide an indemnity for his Majesty's Government in consequence of the measure by which, although under what appeared to them to be a great and urgent neces sity, they violated those laws, and that Constitution. It is true, Sir, that, without offering any very great insult to the laws or to the Constitution, and that, without any very extravagant stretch of the Royal Prerogative, the meeting of Parliament might, perhaps, in the present instance, have been deferred. But although his Majesty's Ministers felt that the postponement might in this case have taken place without any great impropriety, they also felt that the precedent of postponement might be mischievous. Although they felt as sure of the appro. batien of Parliament for the step which they took as men can be who are conscious that they only did that to which they were prompted by an over-ruling necessity, they also felt that they should have been wanting in duty to the King, and in respect to the Constitution, if they did not advise his Majesty to summon Parliament expressly for the purpose of passing judgment on the extent of the necessity to which they submitted, and on the soundness of the discretion which they had exercised—(Hear, hear, hear)—On this subject, Sir, much as I have reason, in common with the House at large, to admire the speech of the Honourable Seconder of the Address, and mach as I have reason to be per sonally thankful to the Honourable Gentleman for many of the sentiments which he so ably expressed, I cannot say that I shall be disposed to claim the approbation of the House on the grounds stated by DV Honourable Friend. I am very far from thinking that that is the best possible state of the law on this important question, which requires this occasional and irregular interposi tion of his Majesty's Government. I am the last man is this House to argue that such a condition of the law is desirable ; for it may be remembered, that among the motives which were urged by me towards the con clusion of the last Session of Parliament to induce the House to agree to the Bill for the introduction of Bonded Corn, was the expediency of diminishing as much as possible the necessity for the exercise of discretion on the subject on the part of his Majesty's Government. The object, therefore, which we have in view in the proposed Bill of Indemnity, is not to elicit the approbation of Parliament of any general custom, bet to obtain a particular sanction for a particular measure arising from an evident and unavoidable neces sity. If, however,. the Honourable and Learned Gentle man complains that his Majesty's Speech does not con tain any direct intimation of the course which itis his M ijesty's Ministers intention to pursue with respect to a subject which at present agitates the feelings of so large a portion of the community, be will perhaps be latibtied when I personally aware bias and the House, chat at a very early period after our next meeting I shall be prepared, on the part of his Majesty's Go. vernment, to proposi such measure; with regard to the 'Corn LAM, as in their opinion will be beneficial to the country, and conciliatory towards all the great interests involved in the determination of the question—(Hear). At least, Sir, it shall be shewn that his Majesty's Minis. ters have no disposition to shrink from the subject; and I again pledge myself, as the organ of his Majesty'si Government, that many weeks shall not elapse after our meeting again, before I will bring it under the con sideration of the House s Such being the case, I trust that I shall not be considered as saying any thing dis respectful to the House, when I declare that I will not be provoked into any premature or partial discussion of a question which demands the most full and deliberate consideration. The Hon. and Learned Gentlemen has said, that the Hon. Seconder of the Address, in advert ing to that passage of the King's Speech which declares " that the Estimates for the ensuing year shall be formed with as much attention to economy as the exigencies of the public service will admit," appeared to entertain an alarm that the economy alluded to would be excessive, while, on the ot h er h an d, h e hi mse lf was excee di ng l y apprehensive that it would fall infinitely short of what was requisite. Really, Sir, we ought to feel some saris faction at having framed a paragraph with such skill as to excite opinions so contradictory—(A laugh). The Hon. and Learned Gentleman, however, says that it is an indefinite. Indefinite it necessarily must be, unless it had been practicafile to introduce details; but I de assure the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, that the most extravagant construction which his powerful imagina tion can put on the apprehension of the Hon. Seconder of the Address, is not more extravagant than the an tagonist apprehension which the Hon. and Learned Gentleman himself professes to entertain. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman appears to have" some monster in his thought," the nature of which it is impossible for me to conjecture. All I can say is, that there is nothing in the contemplation of his Majesty's Ministers which, can justify the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's alarm at that, whatever it may be, for which having no place in his Majesty's Speech, the Hon. and Learned Gentle man imagines a place elsewhere. (Mr. Brougham said something across the table, which we were unable to hear.) Then really, Sir, the Hon. and Learned Gentle man has thrown a Areat deal of very good information away.--(A laugh). I should be glnd to know on what terms his Majesty's Government could secure them selves from the imputation of criminal expense, on•the part of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman. I grant, Sir, that if the Hon. and Learned Gentleman thinks we ought, on the spur of a temporary benefit, to cut down and change all the existing establishments of the conn try,—l grant that if that is the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's project, no such thing is in our intention; nor I am sure would any such proceeding receive the sanction of this House, nor even of the people at large, whom it professed to benefit. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman thinks that the best accompaniment and con solation to a suffering people is the suspension of all public buildings. I am of a contrary opinion. I think that a continuance of public works must be available to their relief. To me it appears that, if people want bread, it is a strange remedy for their distress, to sus pend the employment by which alone they can procure it. While the Character of this country remains what it is, the decent splendour of the Crown, and the com fort of the people will never'be considered incompatible objects: the dignity of high stations will not be re , garded with an envious eye; nor will one class of the community find any consolation for their own evils, in pulling down another. Not apprehending that any such disposition exists in any part of the public, I can assure the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, that it is not the in. tention of his Majesty's Government to carry economy to such an extent as to induce that public to torn round and charge us with going into as extreme. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman is dissatisfied with the decla-, Lion in the Speech, that the Estimates shall be formed with as much attention to economy as the exigencies of the public service will permit. Does the Hon. and Learned Gentleman suppose that there are no exigencies in the public service? Has this country no station to maintain? Is nothing required from us towards the maintenance of tranquillity in Europe ? May we not, at a moderate charge, prevent the occurrence of an evil which, in a single twelvemonth, would plunge us into an expense greater than an ill-judged economy would balance in a course of years? His Majesty says in his Speech, u that he is exerting himself with unremitting anxiety, either singly, or in conjunction with his allies, as well to arrest the progress of existing hostilities, as to prevent tho interruption of peace in different parts of the world." Does the Hon. and Learned Gentleman believe that, in order to effect this object, it is not necessary to maintain a considerable naval establishment? If we look at New World, are there not contests going on which humanity requires should be put an end to ? In Europe have we not an ally whose condition solicits our aid ; an ally in such a situation, that any bssitatiou or fluctuation of policy, on our part, might invite an at. tack upon her P May not our presence on the spot pre vent an aggression oa the power to which I allude? Is not the English fleet now in the Tagus, an obviously wise and economical expense? Will it not be advisable ro continue that expense, if it is calculated to prevent an explosion, the consequences of which no one can foresee? Do not let it be supposed, by my adopting this illustration of the necessity of a certain establish• menu, that the policy of his Majesty's Government would he to meddle with the internal affairs of other countries. I trust we know the limits of our duty too well. It is our duty to take care that the frontiers of Portugal shall not be crossed by an offensive army; but it is not our duty to give one faction or party an ascendancy over the rest. The force which we maintain at Lis bon, therefore, is maintained, not with any view of in terfering in the internal affairs of Portugal; not with any view of intimidating any party in Portugal; but simply to prevent such acts of foreign hostility as in their consequences might involve Europe in war. It is on that ground, Sir, that I take . our conduct towards Portugal as an illustration of the wisdom and necessity of maintaining certain establishments; and I challenge the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, who desires us to cut down all our establishments, to put his hand at this moment on any of our establishments as unnecessary, in which I will not sheer that there are the seeds of safety; in which I will not shew that there are the roots of a well ordered, a well regulated, and a permanent econo my. That is the sense in which the Speech adverts to possible exigencies of the public service. There is no intention under that name to shelter any of those extra vagant propositions, the probability of which the Hon. anti Learned Gentleman appears to contemplate. There i is no part of the policy now pu r sued by t hi s country de pendent on the establishments of the country which I am not ready to go through;point by point, and shew the real efficacy and ultimate economy of the establi.b. meat which we maintain with reference to it; and that,, Sir, u I conceive, is the *Ay pomnib =Mr - .Mei can give to the conjecteces of the Hoe. mid Lensed Gentleman. With regard, Sir, to the conditimi of Ireland, I shall only observe, that the absence of any topic in the Speech from the Throne does not at all prd clude Parliament from entertaining the consideration of that topic, if it should think fit so to d?. The ffporth states those points *Joie respecting wliich Pe is in tended by his Majesty's Government to call on Par liament to adopt some proceeding. It is not our in tention at present to bring before Parliament any specific measure respecting Ireland; but that will not prevent any individual - Member from agitating the subject. I will not, however be tempted, by what has fallen from the Hon. and Learned Gent. to say another word about it. The Hon. and Learned Gent. knows as well as I do, and I know as weU as the Hon. and Learned Gentleman knows, that if in the coarse of the Session the question to which I allude should come under our consideration, I shall be ready to meet—not the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, for our opinions on the question agree, —but the question itself, as I always have met it, with the most anxious and determined attention. Sir, not having been able exactly to understand the purpose of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's speech, but understanding that he does not mean to ohject to the Address, I have perhaps said enough en the pteaeut occasion ; but I cannot sic down without congratulating the House on the accession of talents which they have gained in the Hon. Member who opened the debate of to-night. I trust, from the promising commencement of that Hon. Member's Parliamentary career, that he will not confine himself to this or to any partictihr see bject, but that he will illustrate by the display of his abilities the various important questions which from time to time come under our consideration, I niay-- also be allowed to say, that so far from my le:ling the part which the Hon. Mover, and the Hon. Seconder ifif the Address have taken this night the lea acceptable in conseleence of their decleratiens that they were determined to depend upon their own as the subjects which may come under their amid thet they would endeavour to keep their minds free from prejudice mid open toconviction; and that they were resolved to mix a general legion of his Majesty's Government with e gear la e l ar trit at indspendence ; I experienc e th e g r ea t es t pk asutu Mt s the statemet. Suck are the minds from whom we hope for the meet bandit, because tbe most honourable, aid; and It is cal with clack iptilleedons, and soder such restricting*, thatt his Majesty's uweentemst will ask the support of any man who now sits in this House for the first time—(Hoar, bear.) Mr. HUME 'then addressed the House. He_con. tended that it had not been the custom to omit in the King's Speech all mention of any contemplated mea sures; and quoted, for the purpose of establishing the assertion. the Royal Speech of February, 1829, which promised a reduction of taxes, and several other similar instances. The Hon. Gentleman contended generully against the maintenance of -existing establishments, anti as favour of a redaction of the national expenditure... Far from arming with the paragraph in the Royal Speech, which intimated that the provincial distress had abated, he was firmly convinced it was rather on the increase. He was convinced too that the Burmese war was anything but an " unisvoidable," or honourable one. —The nation was now, in the eleventh year of peace, keeping up a more expensive establishment than in the time of the American war. During the last nine years, from 1817 to 1825, the amount of taxes collected fmna the productive industry of Ragland amounted to 531 millions, making an average .ot 59 millions annually,. The expense of the army, including ordnance, had been 88 millions, and the naval expenditure was 54 millions, making on the whole a peace establishment of 142 mil. lions. The civil establishment in the mean time had averaged at 26 millions, and the debt was 90 millions. which fortunately was since reduced to two millions. The Hon. Gentleman contended that most of the distress was owing to the unreasonable increase of taxation. In 1822, the expenditure of the army and navy ordnance had been narrowed down to 16 millions ; in 1829, when the Royal Speech promised a reduction, it had been lowered 500,0001 In 1824, it was raised to 17,500,0001. In 1825 it continued the same, and in the present year it was ra i se d to 17,800,0001. The Country Gentlemen, be was assured, at the end of the year, would find themselves worse off than in 1817, 1818, or 1819. In the first of those years, the whole amount of taxation would have been paid by IS mil lions of quarters of corn ; whereas, in this year, it would take half a million more. The whole rental of England was estimated at 40 millions, whereas the annual amount of taxation was 60,500,0004 The Honourable Gentleman advocated a general re vision of the National Code. It was disgraceful for the House to sit down contented while justice was administered in such a s h ame f u l manner. With respeet to Ireland, he thought it would be better to grant that country an equality of rights and privileges, than to maintain a standing army there of 22,000 men. Remove her garrisons from Ireland, and she would know her own interests too well to seek more than she was feitly entitled to. At present her wrongs were the branding reproach of England among ell the Continental nations. She was persecuted for no other crime than that of fol. lowing the rites of her ancient religion. The Hon. Gent. concluded by moving, as an Amendment to the original motion, the addition of words to the following purport: is That we rejoice with peer Majesty at the assurances at peace which yaw Majesty centimes to receive, and the more se, as they take away all asessiity of eminteilig a large standing wrap Thu we feel cambial est the Mhos me principal cause et the distress; sod *et pmeriblilifel Cameos win mend lam to examine into the state of taxation, with a view to effect aTisiZ ion wherever it may be protaleabk—as also the free wedeln corn—. the Criminal law—the csastkaden of that House—the state of Ireland, Re. ho." Mr. MARSHALL, in ding to second the Amend. ment, called the amnion of the House to the estrum% denary situation of the country. He adverted parti. elderly to the contracted resources, the distresses and severe privations of the lower ranks. The landed proprietors, be said, were found willing to relieve them. selves from taxation by a monopoly oppressive and most injurious to the interests et the country. In this be felt that he wasoer speaking the seatimente of the county which be had the bein to Mr. MA r l ir la ti tY famed In support of the Amendment. Sir F. /BURDETT and Mr. DAWSON, the new Member for the Canty of Lomb, rose together. In pursuance of the etiquette needy eiseemsd in the House, when a new and an old Member rim lograbor ,thed4Mem ber, Sir F. Roams; gave way, and the new lamabw, Mr.A. DAWSON expressed equal sympathy with the Mover and Seconder of the Address ; as to the dis tress which prevailed in this country. He could not, however, but regret that the feeling. was net extended from subjects in England, to those which existed in neither country, for which he was bound to cont. in. plate with as deep an interest. The distresses of that country did not indeed arise fawn the hunger of population ; but yet they were of a nature to agitate din bosom of every man. The melancholy consequence of 'the neglected state of Ireland was an alienation .1 feeling among those who would otherwise be joined lA tht closest bonds of affectiaps. It eas idle to talk e. •%t th es- Le- Per by TS, Pt.