Star. — London, England, 1812-07-11 00:00:00

for I n vesting either Military Or lvfnestratet with a e f d i t i o nal powers ; thoug h, had the Noble L or d con fined his measure to the concurrent jurialiction, he wou ld not have opposed that. One thing was clear to him, viz. that we must expect these kind of things till we ob tained a peace. An Honourable Gentk on opposite (Mr. Huskisson) had shewn them, that w oos our resources were better managed, we must be compelled to make peace ; and he (Mr. Whit bread) was convinced peace was the only remedy for an our grievances ; and, however the declaration fl ight be viewed, he felt it his duty to, say, that, in hi s opinion, there had never been . a moment for mak. h . pr oposals for peace more favourable than the pre- Knowing there would be another opportunity, tows unwilling to detain the House longer at pre wig, and concluded by saying he should oppose bringing in the Bill. M r , WILBERFORCE said, that if he could be tele with the Hon. Gentleman who had spoken last, tho this was the best time to obtain a peace, he 't i mid as anxiously wish for that blessing. It was Dot , however, by being contented to suffer the evils w i o tedeut in the report, without providing any ade.:l ' crate restraint tor them, that the country would be placed in a situation to treat for an honourable peace me tune and manner in which he was convinced : the H on ourable Gentleman would feel it necessary tbatit s h o uld be concluded. On the subjects con wined w the report it was impossible for him to dwell I ,i t hout the greatest pain, connected as he was with those sutferirg districts on which the measures to be pro posed were principally to operate. It was with g reat pain that he must consent to deviate from the common curse of law in those districts. It appeared : phut, 11 ,, weTer, that his Majesty's Minister.; had set shout this business in the proper spirit, and that they bad na (iisposition to outrun the necessity of the case. In i l ls opin.on lie measure proposed did not exceed the Tvcessty of the case ; and he should frankly own (whatever unpopularity he might expose himself to horn the aviiwal); that he should have been better pleased it greater powers had been proposed to he given to Government, not that he wished larger powers to be immediately resorted to, but in the con- Voice that larger powers might safely be trusted, ssalltit they would be exercised moderately, and silt every due degree of consideration. But his limourable Friend (Mr. Whitbread) seemed to con. Wet the incre ise of those disturbances to be owing Facially to the supineness of the Magistracy in awe districts. When we sat at --OUT ease in this House, talking of disturbances winch we did not see, ad &tigers which we did nut shore, it might be ria # rather to under-rate them, ."- They laugh at sounds who never hit a scar." Those, however, sboresi,led in those districts, naturally saw the evils a s:ronger light, and could not fairly be charged unfounded fear, or with supinenes ,, . It had most distinctly stated by the Magistrates, that from the .system which was pursued, they could art obtain atter:nation upon oath against any indi vidual ct,ncerned in those transactiong ; and that, them, re, they had no means of executing the laws as they now stand. The very principle of the system vasby terror, by threats of assassination, and burn. iagther house, to deter any individual froin coming forward to give information upon which they could att. I'4 Hon. Ft tend had said, that the mind of the Noble Lord (Castlereagh) was so full of the liailtebellion, that he felt greater alarm than the cananstances warranted ; and was, perhaps, ready to run the same career here as was done in Ireland, in the measures taken to put down the rebellion. lie had been, however, infermed by persons who had been in Ireland in those calamitous times, that there was an astonishing similarity between the measures pursued by the deluded persons in the disturbed dis." trim to what had taken place previous to the sebel kn in that country. So far from wishing the same 'measures to he resorted to, to put down the spirit of insurrection here, it was because he wished that there field never be a necessity for suck measures, that be sould rather that powers larger should be given I present. It was hard, indeed, to foresee what erasures were likely to be resorted to, when a coun to was reduced to a general scene of confusion and tirA var—whea family was armed against family, ezdvillage against village ; and when fe2r, the most arelof all passions, generally operated on the minds ee all, and prompted them to deeds of cruelty and bloodshed. He could not believe that the bulk of & Magistracy of the ccuntry would ask or wish for krger powers, if they were not absolutely and indis pensably necessary. His Hon. Friend spoke of those disturbances, as if they had been produced entirely by commercial and manufacturing distregs. He, however, felt perfectly convinced, that it was from political causes,.and not merely from commercial distress, or the high price of provisions, that those evils on If he could believe that they arose merely from temporary causes, he should think them much less serious. Undoubtedly the circumstances 1 of the times, the high price of provisions ' , and the hut of employment, aggravated those evils consi. t i2 tablY. Circumstances of this kind were the rank sal and climate most congenial to their growth; but t•l'esto political causes that they owed their origin. I"1118 17 mischievous publications, industriously dis legietted among them, that they became alienated !rattle Government under which they lived. It was °I these means that their minds were turned from the habits of peaceful industry, and that they became t 'ischiefs to the St ate , an d m i sera bl e i n t h emse l ves . It was unnecessary for him to trouble the House Eger on this subject, as it was generally agreed that e Was the best and mist humane way to Intercept !lose evils in the beginning. The Honourable Gen tleman had said, why did you not take up those peo ple mad hang them ? Now he, for his part, did not tidtto hang them ; but merely that they should be tried for misdemeanours, and that the laws should be tivenforce to try them in this way. The present dis turbances, were not to b e s p o k en o f as mere l y tr ifli ng . 'tints no trifle to induce and bind, under the cere. limits of religi on , men w h o were b e f ore peacea bl e and industrious, to commit crimes at which all the Itnsibilities of man r evo l te d. I t was no tr ifli ng t hi ng , ( I °. lee crime s o f so d eep a dye receiving something I ke the sanction of approbation. He was clearly tuleinced, that th e p resent measures did not go too Rl's and he hoped they would not ultimately be obliged to go farther. , • Mr. WHITB READ, in explanation, said that he bad tweet meant to throw any general imputation on the Magistracy. As to what he might himself 4o in mother sttttat;on, he hopedotat wtettet he had to judge of measures in that House, or *tether fte was placed in a disturbed district, he would do bis duty in either case. Sir FRANCIS BURDETT also contertiplated with jealousy every innovation on the old laws of the country, which in the long-run would always be found the most beneficial. The Honourable Mem ber who had sat down (Mr. Wilberforce) seemed prepated to go any lengths that Ministers might de mand, even the lengths that had been gone in Ire land, if necessity should require it ; that is, he was prepared to go the length of inflicting torture for the purpose of producing confession ; for that was the system that was adopted in Ireland—a system of torture, applied to produce confession, by the Go vernment of the country. He saw from the g..stures of the Honourable Gentleman that he did not assent to the proposition, as he now stated it ; but he ap pealed to those Gentlemen who row heard him, if .what he had said was not to that effect—(No! no!) The Honourable Member had said, he was prepared to go even farther lengths, it circumstances should require it.; and he proceeded to make some observa tions on that subject, which, he conten3ed, could re ceive no other construction. He hoped the Noble Lord was not entering on that bloody career which was run by the Government of Ireland. The Noble Lord himself had always disclaimed having any part in that Government; and a Gentleman was at pre sent in prison far a libel, in having laid that the No ble Lord ly:longed to that Government. He wished to do justice to the Noble Lord, not being willing to fix an imputation rashly on any man If he under. stood the question, it was proposed to convert what were now capital offences into misdemeanours : the meaning of this was, that by a summary mode of proceeding, halt a clez:.n of harmless people, who might be met together tor the most innocent pur poses, might be liable to be seized and exposed to all the - inconveniences of a trial for misdemeanour, for what at present was no crime at all. Another Bill wes to he brought in, for the purpose of allowing the searching for arms. Every man by law had a right to arms for his own and his family's defence. He could not consent to give a Magistrate power to search for and take away from a man that on which the safety of his family might depend. If he were to believe the Honourable Member for Yorkshire, the discontents were spreading, and the laws were quite unequal to suppress them. But was not this contrary. to all the information which had been re ceived, that the acts had not been so often repeated as formerly ? He was informed by a Gentleman of great credibility, who came from the neighbourhood of Horightou Mills, that the account of that case had • been very truch exaggerated. This Gentleman he had recommended to go before the Committee ; but they refused to receive any evidence but what coin cided with their own views. Of the forty persons who rr.et on the moor, ten of whom were spies, 12 Were afterwards. c:invicted—a pretty considerable proportion ! There were many of the convictions at Lancaster and Chester of hich he could not approve. At Lancaster, women, and boys of 16, were hanged for stealing potatoes, a punishment by no means pro portioned. to the offence, and which could only ex. cite disgust, and by no means serve for an example. Had these cases been laid before the Prince Regent, he.believed his humanity would have - made them the objects of royal mercy ; and he was the more inclined to believe this, as only two of those who were con. victed at Chester were executed.—The Honourable Member for Yorkshire had disputed the conclusion lirawn by the Honourable Member for Bedford from the evidence before the Committee, that the discon tents arose from distress ; and yet, when they recol- L lected that the evidence given before the Committee I on the Orders in Council stated the utmost degree of human misery to prevail among the poor manufac turers, there was no need to look to other causes to account for the disturbances. Against what were all their efferts directed? Against machinery, which those ignorant people supposed to be the cause of their distresses. The Honourable Member for York shire had attributed the evil to certain seditious pub. licatlons. 'I hen he must stop the press altogether. (Hear.)—lt would not be sufficient to convert a fe lony into a misdemeanour ; but it would be necessary to stop the press, and put au end to all discussion.— Indeed, except the grievances of the country were removed, it would be necessary to put down all dis cussion. It was absolutely necessary to put the press down, or to stop where they were. The Honourable Baronet proceeded to ridicule the idea of the appoint- • ment of a Secret Committee to enquire into this bust- , ness. What secret came before them which did not appear in all the newspapers ? There was another subject to which he would allude, one of great im portance, though not erne in which many perhaps would concur with him. If attended , to, indeed, it would go to remove many of the causes of our pre sent discontents ; he meant, reform among them selves. He would not, however, dwell upon it now, l as he intended before. the present Seision closed to 'bring it at large before the Home. With regard to I the measures proposed to meet the occasion, he I should abstain from saying any more till the Bill was brought in, and the scope of it more generally pnderstood. He was of opinion that the laws, Is they at present stood, were sufficient, if they were I vigorously enforced, which lie could not think they ' had been. Mr. WILBERFORCE rose to explain. He did not support the use of torture for the purpose of ex tracting confession. 'What he said was, that stronger 'measuies should be had recourse to for the purpose , of preventing that wretched state of civil warfare, in which family is arrayed against family, and village : against village. So far from consenting to the use of torture, he expressed his abhorrence of it. Sir FRANCIS BURDETT said, he was sorry . that he had misunderstood the Hon. Gentleman. Mr. CANNING, having now heard from one Ho nourable Member that the measures proposed were stronger than he could agree to, and from another , (Mr. Wilberforce) that they did not appear to him strong enough, felt himself bound to declare, that in his opiniOn, the measures proposed were well calm: lated to meet the present case. if he had any doube, upon the subject, he felt more inclined to the opinion of his Hon. Friend (Mr. Wilberforce) than to that of the Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Whitbread). He thought that the report proceeded on such principles, and that such facts had been clearly stated, as left his Majesty ' s Ministers no option but to call upon Parllattent tó adopt loch Treattites at *Write tit* to be sufficient to meet the evil. He had himself been one of those Members who had called for the introduction of evidence, which the Committee re. solved not to receive. In calling for this evidence, it was by no means with a view to fortify his opinion upon the propriety of the measures now proposed ; but if it had turned out on the examination of wit nesses that the disturbances had had their Origin in political causes, and not in the distresses of the times, , then he should have thought with his Hon. Priend ( Mr. Wilberforce) that stronger and more decisive' measures ought t 6 have been resorted to. The exist ence of great and en , rmous outrages were subsea's. tiated, but there had been no proof before the Com mittee of the causes to which they were to be atiri. buted. He thought that the report rather under- stated than over-stated the facts utile!' were in evi dence. Indeed, he thought it was right that it should do so ; and that, if there were any error in it, the error should be of that side. He approved of the measures which had been proposed, especially when coupled with the declaration, that if they should not be found to be sufficient, there would be no impediments thrown in the way of the re-assemSling Parliament, to consider what further measures should be resorted so. Something had been said about a wish on the pan of Magistrates to be vested with great and ex• traordinary powers. Now he thought it must be an ' extraordinary ambition indeed to long for being in vested with powers, the exercise of which could hardly be gratifying to any human being.. As to the impu tation of negligence o n t h e p art o f the Magistracy, he must say, that we ought never to forget how much we owe to the respectable and gratqoar Magistracy of ' this country, which affords a greater protection to the liberty of the subj ec t t h an is afforded by the Ma. gistracy of any other country. The Honourable Ba ronet had said, that if the root of all those evils lay in the press and free discussion, there could be no re medy but in stopping the press and free discussion altogether. Now he had imagined that there was no principle upon which people were mote perfectly agreed, than that it was often' necessary to compro- Inuse, among evils, in order to produce the greatest Igood. The liberty of the press and free discussion, should certainly be fostered and encouraged by every wise Government, as the sources from which the greatest benefits to mankind flowed. But, at the same time, if they were pushed to an extreme by bad men, from wicked mrtives, the law had power to correct the evils which might be derived from this perversion of a principle from which the greatest good ought to be expected. As to the sympathy which might be felt by some, for the individuals who suf fered for their conduct in the recent disturbances—if the attention was exclusively directed to the indivi. dual at the moment of his expiating his crime, and not at the time of his committing it, it was highly natural to feel compassion and sympathy ; but the measures proposed were not for the purpose of punishing, but for 'the purpose of saving. It was to save the great mass of the community from the evils produced by those disturbances : it was to save even the great mass of the . poor deluded people themselves that those measures were proposed. He thought, per haps, that it was an over-statement to speak of the rioters as a farce regularly armed and disciplined.— ' The evidence only proved that arms had been stolen, and that men were seen drilling at nights. Now, although it was not proved that the men so drilled were armed with the arms so stolen, yet there could be very little doubt that in time those arms would have come into their hands. Upon the whole, he was prepared to approve of the measures which were proposed, and lie could not avoid expressing his hope ,that they would be found sufficient for the purpose. The Honourable Mr. LAMBE saw sufficient in the Report to shew that a system of outrage existed,' which rendered persons and property unsafe. Lord CASTLEREAGH said, it was impossible , at once to surprise all the arms in the disturbed coma. , ties. During the rebellion in Ireland no fewer than 100,000 stand of arms were seized by the gradual ope. ration of the law. He trusted that the vigilance of the Legislature, the activity of the Magistrates, and the good character of the people of this country, would prevent Mischief from ever coming to such an extent here as it did in Ireland. They who had the painful ditty to discharge which circumstances demanded could not hope to do it with more credit to themselves than it had been done by the Gentry and Magistracy of Ire. land. What the nature of the danger was, and how it was suppressed, all those best knew who went from this country to Ireland at that time. Gentlemen might disapprove of the measures of Earl Camden's admi nistration, but that Noble Lord would be the last to shrink from examination. He was eminently distin. guished for benevolence of heart ; his mind revolted at the exercise of violence, or of any unnecessary se verity. The Honourable Baronet had applied the epithet detestable to the practice of extorting evi dence by torture ; and he agreed with him ; but he could assure him that no such practice was ever known or4utlrorised by Government. It was true, that at one time all law had ceased to exist in Ire , land, and there was no recource for property or for life, but in martial law, which was sanctioned by the Irish Legislature, and subsequently by the United Parliament. It should be recollected, that the Act of Parliament placed punishment at the discretion of Courts-martial. The Honourable Baronet would, perhaps, call it torture, (hear,) when corporal punish ment was used, in the same way that he applied it to punishments in the militia, army, &c. While there was only martial law, the officers punished re bels for their cffences as they did their own soldiers. Such acts as those imputed, might be done during a. rebellion ; and he believed were done; but, solemnly, never by the Government or under its sanction. No' Act of the Irish Parliament ever placed individuals guilty of torture to force confession, out of the reach of the law ; no jury would consider such persons sheltered under a sound construction of the law whick applied only to-the means of preserving `the public peace. He had himself been accused of the legal murder of a man named Orr, who bad tufdergone a regular trial, and was hanged under the advice of the Judge who tried him. Now the fact was, that be (Lord Castlereagh) was not in his official situation for seven months atter Orr was executed: and that was a pretty good tali to the charge made against him. But, inde pendent of all this,hefelt ptepsred for all the respc.nsi. bility of my Lord Caudedit Administration. He only mentioned Ibis as otie instance of the facility with which stories were brunets fotward by way of 'teettsattort. An hidtviclaat whi;hati mkt* IC Ii Js !ions against birth had gone over to freiands *id hrlttght back wii h hint t MlMl:tee Of afAclavits, whieb. the Court did not think it proper to hear t bdt th e ,, allowed two to he readh One of them stated, that he !Lord Castlereagh) had arbitrarily sent a thari to Sas t in, Bay Sw seem years. Concerning this case, he had reeeilred letters from Lord Bantry and anothet person. Lard -Bantry had sent him a copy from tint entry in the orderly book. at the time when the matt was tried in the district consmAnded by Sir icilut Stuart 1. which sheeted that a Curt Martial semen• r ced hirh to tr insportation, after a ',gni it legal trial. ' Another affiiavit charged him with tieing personal!? present at theinfl ct;on of corps.:Al punishm e nt ; b u t he (Lord Castlereagh) could declat, that he never saw such an act ; it never passed under his eve, even by accident. It Was almost impossible to form • judgm. nt of the various difficulties of the times they who were then defeated in chest criminal at' tempts, wet e now desirous of t,i king revenge by heap. ing up false accusations aga;nst those who %vete in strumental in saving th^ country. He cool(' never hope to make peace with these persons. Their hos- Why titaim was the best proof that he had done his duty consci otiously—he hoped firmly. Though he could not hope or expect any thing from them, yet . he had lived long enough to believe that those who knew him best, knew that there was nothing in his heart to incline 11;m to lend himself to an act of cruelty or opprecson to an ilsdividttal. Colonel SHIPLEY was in Irel Ind during the re. bellion, when the High Sheriff of the county of Tip. perary picked out various individuals on private in formation, and took the drummer of his (Colonel Shipley's) regiment, and punished the men worse titan any soldiers were punished. This was before the rebellion.—(Hear).—During the rebellion it was every day's work to t:e up and fl )g men, to make theta confess. Whether authorised or net, he knew it was done, and without any Court-martial. He saw one man so punished, Ns ho was hanged a few days after. He made these' observations because he toolight the Noble Lord had rather m;sstated the matter. Lord CASTLEREAGH said, fiat he bad ad. milted the commission of such acts, but d nied the authority of Government for it. The High Sher;ff at Tipperary, he recollected, was tried and convicted and fined several hundred pounds, in two actions, on cases of this sort. Colonel SHIPLEY mentioned another case of a schoolmaster at Clonmell. Mr. TIGHE said, that never were snore cruel op, 4 pressions committed in any country than in Ir. land. He was not against giving Magistrates additional powers to assist them in doing their duty ;.but respect.. ing the 100,000 stand of arms, he saw them at Kil. penny anti Dublin Castles, and they were nothing hut mere p;kci of parade ; (a laugh) for not two days after they were taken to Dublin, the insurrection broke out in Kildare, and every man was armed—so that seizing the arms dii not answer the purpose, though. it gave people power to break open houses At all hours and perpetrate atrocities. The arms taken were mostly from loyal subjects. He acquitted the Noble Lord personally Crum the charge of torture; but 14 . " must have heard of it. Some smiths in Dublin wire flogged in the Cattle-yard, by the hands of No:Ai.. Lords of the Irish House of Peers.— (Hear, hear.)—. He had himself seen a man picketted in a town in die county of Kilkenny till he fainted, and then left with a priest to extort confession; after-two days he was picketted again, to Make him confess the mates. name who had administered the oath to him. (Lord Castlereagh said the man was prosecuted in that case.) Mr. Tighe observed that this was but one case of many. Lord CASTEREAGH explained the nature of the Irish Indemnity. Mr. C. HUTCHINSON was in Dublin in l79ft s and saw great atrocities by persons of high and low rank commissioned by Government, and under its very eyes—torture practised within hearing of the Chief Governor—the victims paraded about night and day—and the most sacred places s clectrd ae the. scenes of exhibition. He was himself in a yeomanry corps, in Dublin, when a person high is rash brought; drummers and triangles into the Four Carts to torture men to give evidence. He complained to ' his Captain, who turned out that Gentleman of high rank with his drummers. A servant of the Lord Mayor was punished several times in the guard-bootie, and shewn for days weltering in Ills blood. Dead bodies lying on straw used to be exhibited in the Lower Castle-Yard, Dahlia. The lion. Member proceeded to mention the case of a French Teacher • at Clomwell, who was flogged by order of Mr. Jed.. kin Fitzgerald, the Sheriff of the county, merely be. cause he had two letters in his pocket which were writ ten in French. He was jealous of this Bill, becadse it went to take arms out of the hands of a free people. Lord CASTLEREAGH explain:d. The Hon. Gentleman was not founded tn his chtrges against the Irish Government. At the time to which he al. I lulled, Rebels were at Rathtarnham, a few miles from Dublin, which was in a state of complete cen.. fusion and the Irish Government was as little an. saerable for the.dis9rders which then took place, as 1 the Government of this country was for tile riots of 1780. Mr. WILLIAM SMITH was prepared to vote 1 for the introduction of the Bill. But if he cuuid sup. pose that this Bill was likely to produce similar scenes of Atrocity to those witnessed in Ireland, he vowed to GOD that he would endure anything rather than agree to it. Me. CRORER observed, that the Honourable Gentleman opposite ( Mr. Hutchinson) had mention. ed some facts as having taken place in Ireland, cal. oulated to excite horror in alr•vho heard them the same time there was one fact which lie had stated inaccurately, and from that specimen the Ho n " would be able to judge of the rest. The Honourable Gentleman said, that under the very eyes ofGee ese . pent two men were exhibited in the lower Castl e _ iyard, at Dublin ; weltering in their blood from the • cruelties they had undergone. Now, he (Mr.Croker) having berif on guard that very day at the Cas t l e . saw these two bodies ; but they were men killed io action at Rathfarnham ; and as they were leaders Of the rebels, their bodies were exhibited in order to be. .recognised. He sawthrtransaction, and could pied*. himself to the trastfl-of this statement.--(11flaq. t!, Mr. MARTIN (of Galway) declared his eteadk. ton, that neither the Lora Lieutenant of that. 14‘y e , n or any of his confideats, gale their couoteuaskeela ,