Star. — London, England, 1820-05-04 00:00:00

. • • • • ' sio • c • PARLIAMeNj'ARY PIiOCEEDINGS. • HOUSE OF LORDS, MAY 3. Cocni•el erere fully heard on the Appeal Cause of " Lans dowel u. Lensdeevii."—Judgment postponed. The MarltOsst s of SALISBURY and SLIGO, and Lord S.eurotrx (one of the 16 Scots Peers), took the oaths and their seats. Mr. SMl'l'e presented at the Bar the Sixth Report of the CNA toissioners of Ilighlai.d Roads and Bridges. Mr. ilueemo from the Exchequer Office, presented a variety of Financial Documents, persoant to Orders of the Douse. Mr. Selena presented an Account of the Unclaimed Prize- Monies now lying at Chelsea College. The Appeal in the Scots Cause oi . " Matthieson v. Anderson," was ordered to he withdrawn on declared consent of parties. Shortly beforo five o'clock Chief Justice ABBOTT entered the house, and hid upon their Lordships' table the Copy of a Writ of Error from his Court. The House adjourned till to-morrow, when their Lordships • stand summoned on the Earl of Shattesbuty's Motion respecting certain of the Standing Orders. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Mr. SSVITH presented the Sixth Report of tke Commissioners of Roads and Bridges in Scotland ; Mr. 131:Lfrx, front the Ex chequer Office, an Account of the Unfunded Debt of the United Kingdom; and •lr. Seitrat, from Chelsea College, an Account of Unclaimed Prize-Money in the hands of the Treasurer: all which Payers were laid or the table. Twzo.vc: or lourtt...tt Members took the oaths and their seats. Mr. CA Lt'll 1 FT, in the absence of his Friend, the Member for IVattrord (Sir John Newport), obtained leave to bring in a • Bill to regulate the office of Clerk of the Peace in. Ireland. Mr. DOWNIF. presented a Petition from one of the Scots Royal Burghs, praying for Parliamentary interference in its Corporate AlT.Ors. Lord A. 11.1 MILTON observed, that the prayer was sub stantially hostile to the Burgh Ile:ortn in that country, which he had brought before the Howe, which subject would be again shortly offered for consideration. The Petition was ordered to be printed. (it the motion of Mr. CA LCILAFT, leave was given to !nine in a Bill to alter and amend the Act (52d of his late Ma jesty) t..• tl.e Building of Drury-lane Theatre. A Petition complaioing of an undue Election for the Borough of Bridport was presented by Sir 11. St. Paul and the other un successful Candidate.—Ordered to be taken into consideration vu Thursday, the Ist of June. Lori M I LTON moved for a Copy of the Appointment of !Tetley Ellis to be Colonial Secretary at the Cape of Hood hope.—Agreed to. ED WARDS THE SPT. Mr. Altlermtin WOOD gave notice for Tuesday, that he niuve for the appointment of a Select Committee, to ex amine witnesses respicting the conduct of George Edwards. Ile b heard that it was the intention of this person to leave the cnuntr;.. in consequence of which he had written to the Secre tary of requesting him to take measures to prevent hint front doing so till he brouEiht his case before Parliament. Nk OOL TAX. Mr. S. WORTLEY, in presenting a Petition from the Manufacturers in Worsted, of Nottingham, against the tax laid on last year upon the importa-, tion of wor.l, took occasion to observe, that every thing which had come to his knowledge since that , period, had confirmed his opinion of the imprudence and impolicy of the duty. It was not now a time to enter upon the discussion, but when the subject was brought before the House, as it very soon would be, he pledged himself to state fully the grounds on which he thought this opinion might be incontrover tibly maintained.—The Petition was laid on the table. Lord MILTON presented a similar Petition from Leeds, and contended that the tax was contrary to every principle of . political economy, and to the whole commercial system of the country. When it. was recollected what a source of wealth and power the woollen manufactures had been, and how much they had been encouraged, they must see what a se rious alteration had been operated by this injudicious measure. But it was also the cause of great misery and distress; and if any Gentleman visited the part of the country whence the Petition came, they would be convinced that the Act was one of great cruelty.— It had failed too as a means of Revenue, and he would state one instance of its injurious effects which had come within his own knowledge. Within these few months, a large contract was lost to this coun try, he was fully persuaded, in consequence of it.— The Russian Government had wished to have cloth ing for a great part of its army at a stipulated price, but the house to which they offered the commission was obliged to decline it. He put it to the Right lion. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, if, while it produce.J such evils, it had been proved to be, as expected, a protection to the growers of native wool? He asserted that it was quite impotent in this point of vicw, for if they looked at the annual returns made out for the West Riding of Yorkshire, they would see that wool was still a mere drug, and that the ma nufacture in that district had last year diminished one sixth. Did not this prove how erroneous their policy had been, and enforce the prayer of the Peti tion which he now presented ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that whenever the subject came to be discussed, he trusted it would receive all the consideration which it importance deserved. The Noble Lord was mis taken in his inferences respecting the tax as a source of Revenue, for when it was imposed, from the dis tant -period at which it was to operate, and the im mense quantity of foreign wool known to be jli the country, it was distinctly stated, that the returns under the new duty could not be available for much till the time at which they had now arrived. With regard to what the Noble Lord had said about the loss of an important contract, owing to this tax, his Lordship seemed to have answered himself, when be told them that wool was a mere drug in the market. It wool was so cheap, how came the manufacturers to be disabled from undertaking the work ? Lord MILTON replied, they would, but for the tax, have employed coarse foreign wool, which was much cheaper. Mr. WORTLEY made the same remark, and that they could have done it with profit. The Petition was laid on the table, and ordered to' be printed. Mr. BROUGHAM had a Petition in his hand from Huntingdon, which he was requested to pre sent, and which he would have presented, thinking it the duty of Members always to do so, if the docu ment itself was correct, but on inquiry he found that the prayer related to a matter cognizable in the Courts below; and though it was true that Parlia ment might interfere in such cases if it thought pro per, it was equally clear that good grounds ought to be laid before it exercised this power. He would not therefore offer the Petition to the House. NEW POST-OFFICE. Mr. R. GORDON having heard that k was the intention of the City of London to apply for a grant of mote money, to be taken froai the Orphan Fund, on accou:it (if building the new Post-Office, stated that he was still, 'as he had formerly been, adverse W the music in which this business had been con ducted. With a view to ulterior proceedings, he moved for an Account of the progress made in the work ; for a description of the Architects' Plans given in, and of the means taken to insure competition ; of the F.stimates made, and other information. A mo tion to this effect was agreed to. ' • . ClvIL LIST. Sir H. PA KNELL rose, pursuant to notice, to move for certain Papers relative to the new Settlement of the Civil List. It must, he thought, be acknowledged to be most important to sift the *hole of the subjects connected with this question minutely before they agreed to an arrangement so final in its nature, that as soon as the bargain with the Crown was completed, an end was put to all further discussions or altera tions. The Report of the Committee of 1816, which was to serve as the basis of the new plan, ought surely to be in the hands of Members, that they might be aware of the changes and transfers to the Consoli dated and other Funds since that settlement was made. It seemed further desirable that they should be put in possession of the exact amount of the hereditary Revenues. But it was still more important, that they should have an account of the total Expense of the Civil Government of this Country. Gentlemen ought to be aware that the Civil List bore but a small pro portion to the expense, which was little short of two millions annually, made up by the votes of Parlia ment, anti charged on the Consolidated and other Funds. if these Accounts were produced, the pro bability was, that room !night be found for some re trenchment. The House ought further to know what was the expense for the management and collection of the Hereditary Revenues. To obtain information on these points, the Honourable Baronet concluded with moving, that there be laid before the House— An Account of the Charges which took place, in 1116, in the Civil List, what Additions were made to it, and what Charges were taken from it and placed on other Funds. An Account of the Alienation Office. - - An Account of the Offices of Receivers General of Land Revenue. The same Account of the Offices of Auditors of Land Revenue. Au Account of the Sum which the Hereditary Revenues of Ireland has been computed to produce, pursuant to the 15th Section of the Irish Act of the 33d of his late Majesty, di. 34. An Account of the Expense attending the management of the Royal Woods and Forests, since the Accession of his late Ma jesty, and shewing from what Funds the same has been paid. An Account of all Revenue, and of all Emoluments derived from Fees or other sources belonging to the Duchy of Lancaster, and received by the same, or any Officer on the Establishment of the same, in the year ending the sth January, 1890. An Account of the application of the same. An Account of all Civil and Judicial Offices; and of all Sa laries, Allowances, Pensions, incidental and other Expenses belonging to the Duchy of Lancaster, in the year ending the sth January, 1820. The same Accounts as the three last for the County Palatine of Lancaster, the County Palatine of Durham, the County Pa latine of Chester, the Principality of Wales, and the Duchy of Cornwall. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER con sidered the production of the Papers moved for by the Honourable Baronet for the greater part unne cessary, as the information desired was in substance already before the House. Besides, it was impossible that they could be produced before the time for the discussion on the Resolutions submitted to the House. As many of the Othces alluded to were provided by annual votes, it was open to any Honourable Mem ber to bring the subject before Parliament at any time when such votes were proposed. He could have no objection to have the Report of 1816 re printed. Under these grounds he felt it his duty to move the previous question. Mr. TIERNEY, unwilling to have the sense of the House taken on the present state of the question, wished to be understood as protesting against any inference that no further communication or produc tion of Papers would be necessary. Mr. CALCRAFT said, that as the greater part of the information sought was to be found in the Report of 1816, which the Right Honourable Gentleman had no objection to have reprinted, he would re commend to his Honourable Friend, with that under standing, not to press the motion. Sir HENRY PARNELL considered the reprint ing of the Report most important, and with that ad mission he begged to withdraw his motion. The CHANCELLOR of th•EXCHEQUER moved that the Report of 1816 be reprinted. Mr. TIERNEY observed, that it was awkward that the decision would be given before the Report was in the hands of Members. What he particularly wanted to know relative to the Civil List was, as to what occurred from 1816 to the demise of his late Majesty ? The motion for reprinting the Report was carried in the affirmative. CIVIL LIST EXPENDITURE. Mr. HUME observed, that the objections of the Right Honourable the Chancellor of the Exchequer to the Motion of his Honourable Friend (Sir Henry Parnell) could not apply to the motion which he had to propose. The House must be anxious to know what the actual income of his late Majesty was, not alone from the Civil Lis; allowed by Parliament, but from the Reserved Revenues. By the accounts pro duced, and ROW on the table of that House, the whole of that information was afforded from the accession of his late Majesty to the sth of January, 1815. To procure the same account from that period up to Ja nuary, 1820, would 'rake the information complete. That was the object of his motion, and it could be both speedily and efficiently complied with, by giving the accounts for the respective years for the different classes in totals, together with the details of the last year. The most satisfactory arrangement was made by the distribution into classes in the year 1786. — Two subsequent alterations had taken place in 1804 and 1816, by transferring charges from one account to another; and by which claims on the Civil List were made chargeable on the Consolidated Fund.— ' If Gentlemen could have the subject fully before them, and were in possession of the items, they would at once feel the necessity of a correct distribution and arrangement. By the present system, the accounts were most complicated ; for example, a sum of £600,000 was now paid out of the Consolidated Fund, wholly exclusive of the Civil List, though. ori ginally belonging to the latter. Since the accession of his late Majesty, there had been voted to the Civil List 1:53,000,000-1.:9,000,000 of which were paid out of the Consolidated Fund, and which constituted a part of the former at the period of the late King's accession. He considered it a great anomaly, and he mentioned it in illustration, that the Speaker of that House should raw £1560 a-year of his salary from one class in the distribution—(Hear,liear)—and have the remainder made up from another source. The accounts should be simplified, as it was impossible that Members could understand the accounts as they were now made out. His next olleet , ..was to know what had been done since the passing of theAct'of the 36th ? Ile believed it would be found that there had been a great excess beyond , the estimates, pro• posed, and he was doubtful whether the whole lamount of the charges had been paid. By the Re port of the Commissioners on the Civil List, it ap peared that a considerable increase had taken place in the third class. His second motion went to obtain the amount of the Civil Contingencies in totals. The third was to ascertain the return from the Exchequer of the amount paid out of the Consolidated Fund to branches of the Royal Family and the Judges. The Honourable Member concluded with moving—" That there be laid before the House, an account in totals paid for each class with respect to the Civil List, from the sth of January, 1816, to the .sth of January, 1820, with the details of the last year, and a state ment of the amount unsatisfied,' The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ob served, that the objects which the Hon. Gentleman had in view were provided for by the Act of 1816, which directed, that if at any time the expenditure of the Civil List should exceed the Revenue by the sum of sixteen millions, an account of the excess should be presented to the House within thirty-one days. He was perfectly prepared to say, that the provisions of that Act had not been violated; that all the issues had been regular, and that all the charges had been paid, and that there had been no excess of charge over Revenue. He would move the previous question on the Right Honourable Gentle man's motion. Mr. IJUME, in reply, requested the Right Hon. Gentleman would name one proof of all the charges having been paid. It was well known that Ministers bad not always adhered with strictness to the provi sions of such Acts as that of 1816. and that on for mer occasions above three millions had been voted by Parliament to make good such violations. He, for one, did not know, and the House had generally a right to know, if the whole amount had been paid, l and in what classes. If information on this important subject was thus refused in limine, it would be useless , to enter into any discussion upon it. Mr. HUSKISSON tontended, that to assert that the House had a right to call for a detailed account of the expenditure of the Civil List, was altogether a new doctrine. He had heard many debates in that House on the subject, and he had never before heard such a doctrine maintained. He recollected that a very high authority, the late Mr. Fox, distinctly stated, drat unless the Crown came to Parliament for assistance with respect to the Civil List—(Hear, hear !)—Parliament could not call for any account of its application and expenditure. Now, the sum granted to the Civil List had not been exceeded since the last arrangement made by Parliament on the sub ject ; for provision had been made by the Act, that in that event the amount, if exceeding £16,000,000, and not to be liquidated by any other fund, should lee stated to Parliament within thirty-one days. lithere had been no excess, and if nothing had•been de manded, it was not consonant to the usage of Par liament at all times, and to the respect that was due to the Crown, to call for a detailed account of the expenditure of the Revenue granted by Parliament for the support of his Majesty s Household. He ap pealed to the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite if that I was not the uniform rule. Was it expedient to de part from that rule; merely to gratify the curiosity of the Hon. Gentleman as to the quantity of wine, or other detailed expenses in the Lord Steward's de partment? It appeared to him that no ground what ever had been laid for the motion. Mr. TIERNEY allowed, that the usage of the House was not to call for any detailed account of the expenditure of the Civil List, unless an applica tioh was made by the Crown for assistance. But he must say, that he thought the speech of the Honour able gentleman who had just sat down, most extra ortinary ; for he treated the question as if there was a Civil List in existence, when the fact was, that the Civil List was still to be provided. Parliament had been called upon by the Crown to grant a Civil List de novo, and what his Honourable Friend wanted was such information as might enable the House to' judge in what way to shape their grant. When the Crown, in its communication at the commencement of the Session, stated that it placed its interest in the Hereditary Revenues at the disposal of Parliament, and that it could have no wish that any addition should be made to the settlement adopted by Parlia ment in the year 1816, was that House to conclude that the settlement so adopted in 1816 was a proper settlement at the present time, without being in pos session of any of the intervening occurrences by which the question might be affected ? Parliament, it was to be remembered, were about to be called on to make a final arrangement en the subject of the Civil List. That once done, it would be indecent, as the Honourable Gentleman had argued, to inter fere with it, unless on an application for assistance; in proportion to the cogency of the argument grounded on the indelicacy of such an interference, was the ne cessity of caution on the part of the House not to bind itself rashly, or without having previously ob tained the requisite information. He would take it for granted, that there had been no excess of expen diture since the Act of 1816, as no account of such excess had, in compliance with the provisions of the Act, been laid on the table. But this did not lessen the necessity for information. He would allow that it did not appear that Parliament had voted too little for the Civil List—but they•might have voted too much. If that had been the, case, what had become of the surplus? If, for instance, in the Lord Stew ard's department, there had been any unappropri ated sum, what had been done with it? He did not mean to hint that anything of the sort had hap pened; but it was right the House should know the facts, when a permanent arrangement was about to be concluded. Mr. Hosictssox and the CHANCELLOR of the Ex- CHEQUER severally explained. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, it seemed to be the intention of his Majesty's Ministers, at the com mencement of a new reign, to take as a model in the arrangement of. the Civil List the arrangement mitde five years ago, notwithstanding all the changes which had since taken place, and without consenting to any inquiry on the subject. That was certainly not his view of the way in which the House of Com mons, at a time of such extreme pressure, ought to perform its duty to the country. He did not know whether the Honourable Gentleman's motion was that which was hest calculated to obtain the desired information (although it appeared to him to be a very fair and proper one), but he was perfectly satise Red that the House of Commons would not do its ' duty, if it consented to any proposition for the per manent establishment of a Civil List without any further inquiry—(Hear, hear, hear). Mr. HUME reminded the Gentlemen opposite of the excesses of expenditure in 1784 and in Mt.-not communicated to Parliament as the law prescribed. 'Would the Right Hon. Gentleman point out where the required information from ISIS to 1820 could else ' where be got ? It was nowhere to be got—(Heir). The gallery was then cleared, and strangers were excluded for some time, during which, however, no division took place, but the discussion proceeded— on their re-admission, they found Lord MILTON declaring, that he very much doubted if the present circumstances of the country were such as to justify the establishment of a perma nent Civil List. In the present state of our currency, it was impossible for any man to say what was the real value of a pound sterling, or what alteration the execution of the measures agreed to by Parliament hut year, might cause in that value. He would, therefore, almost say, that no permanent Civil 1 ist Establishment ought at present to be formed ; but, at least, the House ought maturely to consider can what basis that establishment ought to be constructed. It was half a century since the subject had been fun damentally L•aught under the consideration of the I House ; for all the subsequent Acts with respect to it were mere modifications of the arrangement, and were not founded on any thorough consideration of it.— Referring to Mr. Burke's celebrated speech, when he moved his Economical Reform, he put it to the House whether it might not be practicable to intro duce some of the. ameliorations then contemplated? Was it not at the time of making a new bargain with the Crown, that various anomalies (such, for instance, as allowing the Chief Justices of Chester and Wales to sit in that House contrary to all principle), might advantageously be corrected? The present was the period in which a minute inquiry ought to be instituted, in order to sec if some alteration might not be made, beneficial not merely as to the scale, bet as to the classification of the Civil List expenditure. But it appeared to be the determination of Ministers to vote the Civil List as it was, without any investi gation whatever ; taking credit, indeed, for not in creasing it. A Right Hon. Gentleman had even asserted that everybody expected it would be in. creased ! It appeared to him to be most extracir. dieaty on the part of Ministers to refuse all infor mation on the subject. Mr. C. LONG (in explanation of a speech made during the exclusion of strangers from the gallery) denied having said that it was generally expected that the Civil List would be increased. After a few observations from Mr. Hums and Mr. Hussissote, a division took place.—For the previous question, 113—Against it, 60—Majority 53. Mr. HUME proceeded to make his second motion. He avowed, that his intention was, that the details of the last year's expenditure should be laid on the table, in order that the absurdity of many of the items might be shewn. Was it not fitting that the House, in the present distressed state of the country, should have every information on the subject, when among the items were such sums in the seventh class as £1,372 to the Master of the Horse, which might surely be retrenched ; £1,547 for the education of the Persian youths, which was misplaced in being charged on the Civil List; and others as deserving of remark' He deeply regretted that the House of Commons, by the decision to which they had just before come, had expressed their determination to shut out all informa tion on the subject of the Oivil List; not even admit ting that which was by no means novel in its nature, but simply an extension from 1615 to 1820, of the information in the possession of Parliament before that period. He could do no more than make the propositions which he deemed necessary; it was for the House to deal with them as they thought proper. He would now move, " That there be laid before the House a Return of the Amount of all Payments under the head of Civil List Contingencies, not forming a part of the ordinary charges of the Civil List for each year, from sth January, 1815, to the Stb January, 1820; u also, an Estimate of all utstanding Demands; and of all Sums which had been granted by Parliament fur the discharge of the cams." The CH A NCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved the previous question, which was carried without a division. Mr. lIUME then moved for an abstract Account, shewing the amount in totals, under each head, issued in each year, from the sth January, 1815, to the sth January, 1820, from tl►e Exchequer, out of the Con solidated Fund, or of Money specifically granted by Parliament for allowances to several branches of the Royal Family, to the Judges, and for all services formerly paid out of the Civil List Revenue, but from which the Civil List had, at various times, been relieved. The Honourable Gentleman observed, that the object of this motion was to put the House in pos session of the gross Amount of the Sums formerly paid out of the Civil List Revenue, as granted to his late Majesty in 1760, but now derived from other quarters, to the amount of 1.:600,000. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved the previous question, which was carried without a division. Mr. HUME said he would not go on with the re maining motions of a similar nature which he held in his hand, although he must again state, that the accessible accounts on the subject took weeks and months to understand, although a single hour's la bour on the part of the Clerks would obviatt that in convenience. The motion which he was now about to make, however, was of a different nature. It was surely most important, when the House were called upon to vote a Civil Revenue to his Majesty for the support of the Royal Household, that they should know what sums his Majesty bad at his disposal, over and above all Parliamentary grants. The amount of the reserved Hereditary Revenue of the Crown in Scotland, taken on the average of the last three or four years, amounted to Et 10,004!. He was anxious to have this account continued in the same manner as the others, from the 2d February, 1816, Xo the 2d February, 1820. Over and above the sums voted by Parliament, the whole of the reserved Here ditary Revenues of the Crown amounted to 000,00 ). —lf the account, as it respected Scotland, were v)- duced, it would stew that the tllO,OOO was chieiy th an an X