Star. — London, England, 1812-03-04 00:00:00

r• - 4 P 4RLIdifENEAR r PROCEEDINGS. HOUSE.CrIiniIDS, MIIRCII . 11. • In a Committee at Ptiviteges;:tliste Lorded/a J1441e Ruttier progress it thudlicassion of Ai i/altus to the Strafford Peerage, the further rassiderat.na nf **tux& .atutarned t 0 the Com • .asittee fill Thursday 14l'asiakt. • The How being reammid„,PraYers wets read, aadtbeir Lard. ships progeedlggyn fen-Ward The /lON agen the tibia Who Sugar Bounty Drawback Bill passed through a Constaia • tee, and was repotted withook any antendtnent. The Revenue Penalty Amendment Bill was rind a second 'time. and referred to the consideration of a Select Consmitte. I The Report of the Nottingham Framp Breaking Preentiois Brill was taken: into consideration, an agreed to' by the Holm, and the Bill ordered to be read a third time on Friday. That Nottingham Watch and Ward BSI, tl+ Southwark Clink Liberty Paving, iusd the Ipswich Road . lilii;tetre -brought up Vern the Commons by Mr. Lusa' N tyrort, lAtitA RAI4, and other Members, and severally read tßrst time.., After disposihg of some private t4iSinel. the • tlet ti e olieurnel till to-morrow. . • • • '••• . 5 • HOUSE Of COMMONS. .• Mr. WHARTON moved for a new Writ for the Mcssongh of East Looe, in the rtiont of Richard Vireliesley, who had, si•lee his election, accepted tilt office of Steward of the Chihern Hundred*. *1 h. Latter, Bill was read a first time, and ordered to be read seem I rime to-morrow. Mr. W. POLE gave notice, that on Friday (text he would move Cu Supplies for Ireland hi the Cormnittee of Supply. 1 lie Woottoa liasset Eketiou Petition was po,tponed te. she 24th. Notice was given of a motion, for Thursday next, for papers relative to the prosecution of Captain Tomlinson. F PL,OFI4I EN T OF FOREIGN ERS. Lord FOLKESTONE gave notice of a motion for Tuesday next, on the subject of the Employmem of Foreigners in the Bri tish service. Seeing the Right Hon. Oentlemao (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) in his place, he wished to know whether the Commissioners for managing his Majesty's priva4e property were yet appointed t His reason for pitting the question was, that he was given to unde, stand they wore appointed, and that one of them was a Foreigner. The CHANCELLOR of the. eXCHEQUER said the ap pointments had taken place, and °Le of them was a foreigner, the Commissioners being Mr. Simeon, Colonel Taylor, and Count MOnster. MR. WA LSTT. The SPEAKER thought it his duty to inform the House, that he had received another letter from Mr. Walsh, in wheh it was stated, that he (Mr. Walsh) was in that state of bodily health and mental cap a chy which would enable him now to attend the House ; he further remarked in his letter that he as anxious and desirous that the Reuse should come 'to as speedy a decision on his case as possible ; he added, that in his own estimation he should be less able to attend the House a fortnight hence, in the event of the case being postponed for such a length of time, thin' he now felt himself. Having put the House in possession of the contents of the letter which he had that molting received from Mr. Walsh, the Speaker observed, that it rested with the House to determine on the course that ought to be pursued in consequence of such a commun;cation. On the motion of Mr. BANKES, the Order of the Day for Mr. Walsh's attendance In his place this day fortnight was discharged, and Mr. Walsh was ordered to attend in his place in that House on Thursday next. ORDERS TN COUNCIL. Mr. BROUGHAM said he rose in consequence of a notice he had given to bring forward a motion af fecting the state of our commerce and manufactures, a motion which embraced so vast and so complicated si variety of detail, that it he had been aware of its ex tent at first, lie doubted much whether lie would not have consulted his prudence and relinquished his un dertaking. With such claims to the indulgence of the Hiuse, he would only preface his observation with observing, that his object was to induce the House to go into a Committee fdr the purpose of enquir ng into this important matter. He had to address Wax , self to various descriptions of persons, all agreeing that the voice of this country was raised in complaint, and he hoped all were unwilling to say, that these complaints wee without foundation, until they were examined. Great difference of opinion existed as to the causes of the present distress. Some disapproved of the measures of 1806, which were followed up by the Orders in Council df 1607. Others who ap proved of the further Orders in Council, might dis approve of the particular mode of relaxation which was adopted. Others 'again, who -regarded the on-' ginal measures as a grand experiment of counterac tion to the policy of France, would wish to examine its effects. There was another class, of which he must acknowledge himself to be one, who, having condemned the whole from the commencement, were willing to show that the predictions were fulfilled even beyond their most desponding expectations.— Last of all, there was a class who, undervaluing the commercs and manufactures of the country, sup posed that nothing was to be apprehended while agriculture was encouraged. To all those different 'classes he had to address himself, and he hoped they would all concur in giving their voices for inquiry.— His object was to enquire into the result of the expe riment of 1307, and to ascertain whether k had op pressed or assisted the enemy ; whether it was not ; better that we should retrace our steps ; or, if. we were to persist, that we should adopt a more effectual, intelligiSle; and operative mode of enforcing our measures against the commerce of France Unless they were prepared to tell the people that otir present evils were irremediable; that they were such as must be endured by patience, rather than by hope, the House could not refuse the proposed investiga:s tion. The system upon which we had so long professed so act, was, in the outset, retaliation.—What then was the system of the enemy upon which it was a re taliation To sum up all in one word, it was a sys tem of hostility to commerce, a wish to sacrifice the trade of France to the destruction of the trade of England. It was true that, in some moments, while suffering under the vexation of severe naval losses, Bonaparte had expressed a wish for « ships, colonies, and commerce ;" but no sooner had his mind re sumed its tone, than he turned to the prosecution of his favourite policy of sacrificing his own trade to the ruin of ours. Nay, lie (Mr. Brougham) was disposed to go further, and say that he had a hostili ty to commerce itself, without any view to us, as if there was something in its nature injurious to his views upon the liberties of mankind. The conscription it self was inconsistent with trade ; it was a sacrifice of commerce to power, and the same disposition was manifested in the various measures of his Govern ment, as well as in his answers to the petitions of his merchants. To them he had declared that " it wits too late in the day SO think of trade that the - # ! canoe ci tliek comrame was so rithie the better, for “ he would have soldiers and peasants alone."_. It was also to be collected from the publication of his minister, Talleyrand, in which be maintained the superiority of agriculture to commerce since the stormy period of the revolution ; the latter having a tendency to unite men, the former to separates to dispirit, and tranquillize them. His system was war with commerce ; with commerce as with liberty ; ' 1 with the mother as with the child ; with those prin. I ciples which were favourable to the world he hated ; and inimical to the power he had usurped. He (Mrs Brougham) was not disposed to believe him (Bona- Owe), -or his new made Duke, upon their own bare avpwal, for it was easy to suppose the case of a ?since and Minister of France presenting such a compound of villainy and fraud . to the world, as to render us tl,e more guarded in proportion as their vows and oaths were more positive and awful. But the system of Bonaparte being, from the evidence of facts, inch as he had described, they were next to t enquire, wriat system it was natural for England to adopt, on the other hand.? 'Pre obvious policy of England was to encourage commerce by all means in her power, and to encourage the trade of neutrals. Not of the neutrals most contiguous to France, and therefore most exposed to its power, but of that neu tral which Was separated from France by an ocean, impa§siblc to her, owning the same interests, and speaking the same language with Ergland, and be ing the only nation, beside ourselves, in which free. dom could be found. It was lamentable to consider 1 how entirely the reverse of those measures wassadopt- I ed. We had not only not clore our best to secure the neutrality of that Power, but we had adopted a system against neutrals which went to obl.ge theni immediately to declare for cm side cr other. He should say nothing upon the negociafons still pend ing with that country, but could not help regretting having beard on a hue occasion that the hopes of a successful issue Were represented as slender. But linking to the effects of the system we had pursued, they would find by the papers laid before the House in 1809, that the whole of the imports and exports of 1808, as compared with those of 1807, fell short by no less an amount than fifteen millions. It was found necessary in 1809 to substitute a blockade to a limited extent, which was done by the measure of the !6th of April in that year. This measure he con tended was in effect getting rid by one sweep of the' whole principle of the Orders in Council. The prin ciple was to cripple the French commerce, but this, by opening an inlet to their commerce, defeated the principle. As to the flourishing representations of our trade in 1809, he would set against them the seizure of our vessels by the enemy in 1810, by which up wards of nine millions sterling was lost to this coun try. The seven millions Droits of Admiralty which we had taken from our friends and natural allies in the course of eighteen years of war, was more than counterbalanced by this fatal seizure of Bonaparte. He denied that Bonaparte had gone on relaxing his decrees-after the paring down of our Orders in Coun cil. In 1809 vie relieved the pressure on his com ' merce, and in 1810 he came out with two measnres, ten thousand times more strict and more pressing on his commerce and our own. He ridiculed the Bark Bill as an attack upon the humanity of Bonaparte, by persons who had always denied him the possession of such a feeling. He should next proceed to state the facts on which his inferences were built, though the numberless petitions preparing in many parts of the country, the list of banktuptcies, which was dou bled since the Orders in Council, the list of the poor, which had increased in Liverpool to sixteen times its former amount, were facts, which would bear him out, even in the teeth of the returns upon the table. —He could not shut his ears to the cries of the poor people; he could not be indifferent to the petitions which would shortly come from Warwickshire,York shire, Nottinghamshire, and parts of Scotland ; nor could he look upon the returns of Mr. Irvine as of greater authority ; he might be called the saviour of the nation ; the Gazettes might be represented as mistaken; thecountry might beheld up asiburishi ng, commercial, and gay, but it must be in defiance of all those proofs ofmisery whichobtruded themselvesdaily before their eyes But let them see what wasthe state of things in 1841,even by the documentsof Mr.lrvinehim self. The official value of the exports for 3 quarters of the year 1810, was £27,000,000. The official value of the exports for the three corresponding quarters of the year 1811, was only £16,000,000, being a falling off of £11,000,000 in the three quarters, and by cal culation, a falling off of 14. or £15,000,000 in the whole year of official value; or about 5e21,000,000 real value. The answer to all this, it seemed, was, that there had been no considerable falling off in the exports of last year, as compared with the exports of 1809. It would appear, however, that the difference was only £:4000,000, and that the exports of the three quarters of the year 1810 were to the amount of £9,000,000 less than the exports of the three cor responding quarters of 1809. But he would go back to a comparison of 1808 ; and the House would recol lect that that was the very worst year of exports.- 1 befalling off oftheexportsoflBoBbeingi€l.s,ooo,ooo, as compared with 1807. In the three quarters of 1808 the exports were 818,000,000. In the three quarters of 1811, £16.000,000, being a difference in real value of ie'2,500,000. With respect to the ex ports SA South America, the House had only the Custom-house returns, which could not be considered as a fair test of the real trade. By those returns it would appear, that the official value of the exports in 1811, to America, exclusive of the United States and the West Indies,exceeded those of 1807 by eight millions. How little harmonious was this statement from the Custom-house, with the actual situation of the Country ! Those who did not pin their faith to Mr. Irvine's books, when they saw the wretched ness that prevailed in the Country, could not help suspecting that those exports went to a market not open to receive them. '1 he great excess of importa tion in the succeeding year strongly confirmed this suspicion. - He proceeded to consider the relaxation of the Orders in Council under the name of Trade Licences, a relaxation which spewed a complete want of confidence in the success of the original mea sures. The increase nt the Licences was prodigious. In 107, 1,600 were issued ; in 1811, no less than 18,000, than - subjecting the whole foreign trade of the country to 'a new system. What was the natu ral result of these licences' as they affected the ene my, neutral powers, and this country ? With regard to site enemy, in pi aportion to the ertent of the licen at seas the principle of the etraers in Nana ahan doned. iVith regard to neutral powers, the system is Ided to benefit those alone who were under the in fluence of France, and to whom France looked for the support of her Marine. With respect to this country, the effect on our shipping would be appa rent, by a comparison of the British and foreige ship ping employed in 1806, with the British and &rein shipping which had been employed in 1810. By this comparison it would appear that in that period the amount of foreign tonnage and foreign shipping had more than doubled; being at the first period. 567,000 tons of shipping, and 29,000 seamen; • and being, in 1810, 1,138,000 tons of shipping, and silty. thousand seamen. The British ship owners, as the memorials from Hull, Shields, &c. sufficiently tests bed, sustained thereby the greatest injury. A con siderable diminution had taken place in the budding of merchant ships. In 1805, ships were built to the amount of 90,000 tons. In 1610, to the amount of only 61,000 tons. By the system that had been pus iced, the trade had been thrown out of the !taintless and distant power of America, into the hands of those near us, and ready to assist France in her hoiti-1 lity. Nothing could be more annoying and injurious to the trade of this country, than the systematic, and every day's interference with it to which the Execu tive Government had resorted. The President and Vice-President of the Board of Trade, were at present the great merchants of the ccuntry, and not the resi dents in London, Liverpool, or Hull. They em ployed their mornings not in devising the means of protecting British merchants, of annoying those of the enemy, or of diminishing the hostility of neutrals, but in making assortments of cargoes, an occupation to which, with all due respect to them, he conceived that they were wholly incompetent. He did not ob ject to the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite on the ground of his political or natural but his mercantile incapacity. The habits of his life had AS little fitted him I for the task which he had underteken e as a Right.H.on. Secretary of the Treacury who had lately come out as an eminent poet, and in his ( Mr. B's) opinion been fitted by his habits for the task which he had undertaken. It was really ridiculous to contemplate the Noble Lord at the head of the Board of Trade, settling tbe vari ous component parts of a cargo. Sometimes deter mining that it should consist ,of wool, scisears, nails, and cotton twist ; •then hesitating whether or not to ' leave out the scissars ; and finally, perhaps, deter-I mining to omit the nails, and allow the scrs.ars to be i included. He did ink impute any abuse in the gran ting of licences ; he did not mean to accuse Govern. ment of partiality, in that respect. But it vas evi dent, that these merchants who were consulted by the Board of Trade on the perpetual changes that were taking place, must have very little cunning, ilj they could not make a probable guess With . respect to! the projected prohibitions and admission:, which to them would be just as great a bonus as any stock brokers would receive,‘to %%horn the Chancellor of the Exchequer might communica:e the terms en which he meant to fund Exchequer Bilis, or to contract for the sale of the lottery. The merchants also consul ted by the Board of Trade were not such men as the Member for Worcester, or the Members for the City of London. No ; those who were seen clearing out wards and inwards at the office were generally neu trals and their agents, jobbers and brokers from Duke's Place. These mere the persons whom the Board of Trade thought proper to consult in their commercial regulations. By the perpetual changes in their regulations, the enemy were continually ena bled to anticipate and frustrate our wishes. But the most deplorable effect which the new system had, was on the morals of tho s e who w ere employed under it. It had been said by a high authority (Sir W. Scott) that it was a series of simulation and dissimu lation from beginning to end. It would have been still more accurately described, had it been called a system beginning in forgery, coilinuing in perjury, and conversant with every description of fraud and enormity. He described the nature of the licences and the deceptions which were practised under them, , (reading a circular letter which had been sent to va rious merchants in London, from persons who ac tually professed to estrblish themselves for the sole purpose of making simulated papers). If this was the kind of victory which our commerce was to enjoy over the designs _of Bonaparte, he disclaimed any share in the triumph. After dwelling at considerable length on these and similar points, he concluded by moving— , That a Select Committee be appobsted for the purpose of !lilting into consideration the pre sent state of the commerce and manufactures of the country, particularly with reference to the Orders in Council, and the License Trade," Mr. ROSE was anxious to make some statements of fact, which, he was persuaded, would do away all the effect of the arguments so ably urged by the Hon. Gentleman. He did not deny. that the mint'. lecturing districts of the country experienced much distress, particularly Birmingham, the trade of sell; c h place depends materially en the connection- ith America. But when the Honourable Gentleman contended, that that distress originated in the Orders in Council, and was a ground for their repeal, he would ask him, what were the facts on which he founded that statement ? He would refer to the papers on the table ; and he must observe, that the Hon. Gentleman questioned the accuracy of bar. Irvine's figures, only when they opposed his state ments, 'and not when they seemed to support them. For his part he never knew the correctness of the Custom-house accounts doubted, nor could he allow that they weteat all liable to the objections of the Hon. Gentleman. What did these accounts state? The Or ders inCouncil were issued in 1807 ? The accounts stated that is 1807 the general exports were £35,800,000 ; that in 1808 they were £34,800,000; that in 1809 they grew to £50,000,000 ; and in 1810 they were 845,000,000. All this was official value, so that the increase in teal value was near £30,000,000. The Hon. Gentleman said, however, that although the general exports might be increased, yet the particu lar exports to America were decreased. How was this borne out by the accounts ? In 1807 the whole of the exports to all America and the West Indies, amounted to £14,000,000. In 18u8 to g 15,800,000- In 1809 (in which year the non-intercourse act took • place in• America) to £19,200,000, and in 1810, to £20,418,000, making a difference between the years 1807 and 1810, of A 6,000,000 sterling in the exports to all America, and chiefly attributable to the in crease of exports to South America. Did he then mean to infer that we ought to be indifferent with - r ' , respect to oar coskisecon with • Stit es ), By 1110 means. OR the Contrary, he had ` 41w a y ta i A . that the interests of Graz Britain and th e ; ; , te ,,,, o f the United States were c.loselv canno t -4 1 14i: was too much to expect tha t we should allow A.Z rica to treat as in a manner different from other te „,L tries. The Hon. Cr:lnman had been very wit t y his description of the people who he stipi ,„ st ,' consulted by the Board of Trade. He c uld the Honourable Gentleman, however, that h e ew completely misnaken• With respect to the mr ; which he (Mr. R.) kept ; nor was the assortment Cargoes the morning's occupation of his Wolk Fri en d and himself. A considerable portion of their ta u was taken up in considering what articles it war„nd be safe and proper to allow to be impc.red into de s ountry. The Honourable Gentleman alisterb2.l t h at the British shipping had been injured by the siv e% of licences. The accettuts on the table, h oste t i She We‘i that there were 200,000 tows of Brida l .1 1 . -. 0 „ 'ping, and fourteen thousand Briti s h seaaren !e.l, more than whin the Ordeis its Coaued we re pro , !mulgated. He admitted that the toreiga a ti repoit • had increased in great proportion. But if brea ds shipping had not ken cmp:oyed, what would h,, become of our commerce? How could it h a v e b ps carried on with those ports which woe shut agi ng the British shipping ? Would Government have b ee justified in letting the manufactures of the ay perish in warehouses, rather than elk.• and swam i them to be transported to those ports iu tore ga ping? That the British shipping was ea u *, employed, was evident from the increased rate d transports. In 1807 the rate was 19s. paten ; at present it was 255. He understood also that at a place the most likely to be affected, there was ant a ship which was not either actually employed, ca . I about to be taken up. In this respect too, the te i d e I with the Spanish and Portuguese settlements in finale jAmerica, would be snore advantageous to this caw try than the trade with the United Stares.orly fr om 17th to a 23d part of which was carried on i s 'shipping. When the cortr.e:cial treaty. 41797 visa concluded with Americ .'. it nas o n t h e j eude „ .4 reciprocal advantage. By end treaty it was plaided that the duties in each country uon the imprad as from the other should be dim !t.i bed 10 per cabs Opel the existing duties. No sooner however was this turf concluded, than America doubled her data?., rrhid I arnourired to n.!arly a prohibition of British goods.;, By trading with the Spanish, and Potutguete 'rents in South America, this country would get a. vigation, end it would get mercantile profits. Na. i thing coal,' be more clear than the disainantagenta I situraion in which Great Britain would have hew j placed, but for the Orders in Council. FrAnorroold thca have had the benefit that trade from Mich i we shmild have been reciiidell.' She would h are amply tarnished Issue! from America with dila she requ red ; with raw 'maenads for her mane n tures, and particularly with cotton, for the impeft tio4 of vnitch she bad tecently shewn the trent anxiety. What had been the origin of the Omen is Council? France had said that there should be a trade to. England. OUT answer was (an anseer e halt we had the power to chfnrce) that nothing should ;•,a to France which did not coax from her to Englond. —We had a right to say to neutral prawn, the if they tolerated a regulation of one of the beligo rents inimical to our commercial interests, they mile tolerate a regulation outer part In defence of Ursa interests. Nothing hostile was irtended towards Ame., rice. On the contrary, every degree cf attentionand kindness was shewn to her by Great Britain. Tin conduct of France towards America was directly& reverse. Not content with the Berlin Decree, sot proceeded to burn American property at tel, sal then issued the Milan Decree, which subjected a confiscation all neutral vessels that pen/rued thaw selves to be searched. It has been said, that the French degrees had been revolcd ; but on no tom dation. In a recent prize cause, on a vessel called the Catherina Augusta, it was allowed that the Ber lin and Milan Decrees had not been rescinded. Al American vessel in ballast, from Charlestown, had also been carried into Calais; and no longer ago the November last, the Captain and Owner presented a petition to Congress, praying their interposition, sag sledging that the vessel so captured was tektite the sole ground of a supposed infraction of the Leila and Milan Decree!. But the House was told, that there had been no condemnations in France an& those Decrees. Of this he could not speak; betas 0113 would deny that time had trei.st segos. trat.. ons• to a considriable amount. It a.as prey nearly the same thing. Every syllable which ths Honourable Gentleman had uttered of the salio of simulated papers was applicable to the period - IP. fore the Orders in Cnurcil aid the Trade Lidos vii4e - isoted ; and he would state, without fear of ow tradictinn, that the latter had very much checked die perjury and fraud complained ot. Before the liceasn were issued, it was necessary for eiery Captain ors :hip to take an oath at the Custom.house, relative* the size of his ship and the number of his mar. This was discontinued, a:id he knew of no We l st ibba. tlited.—To all those shocking perjuries which w.. 2 formerly frequent in Doctors' Commons, flew WAS now no temptation. He had enquired p.r.iceisk intn the subject, and he was assured, by Masters sf neutral vessels; that they were not called upcia make any afftdavita cat the other si4' of the Water."" . ' Under these circumstances was it fair fur the Ho. Gentleman to come down and brand th: canosa character with the imputation of systeniatic a p a Z Were the Orders in • Counc 11 and the licences then indeed the country vinuld re urn to that gr.° of neutralization under which perjures wereforrwrlT t.) frequent. Reverting to the distresses tithe mane. facturers, he expressed his persuasion that oat arts had been used to make the suffering indivientals t+► . lieve that these evils orignated in the Ordeck - ( 1 Councils. Those persons had 'certainly borne asec distresses with A patience and a 'f o rtitude which eir titled their present complaints to the most iiwitsi` gest attention—but it was irnrossibk to convince him that the greater part of. the inclividnals she put their names to a petition against the Orders Council, were at all aware of the mode in wirch thno orders operated—and of this he Imo assured, that their suttelings would be materially Id! those ()reefs rescinaed. The sistem the Goal; ment had adopted WAS one of self-defince, they 11 1 5 no alieruative between having recourse to it sad a" entire renunciation of our trade. No doubt our !g,' ' ports were-lowe r this year than the last, bet WO. . r ibe COO Lt a give tigh by . low haul with d E ar4l; tat til wens Baiu fait a recur row Lures ', Levitt) on ill only swot fixoni op ...t-ani :auk J it q %mat r rd, )6 ° 1 r1i44 r i She, i;letl -- Ile 1 reel