Star. — London, England, 1827-06-27 00:00:00

, 1 1 • I i, l 1 4 1 , 4 1 I • g 1 / f ,o# , ,•• 1 1 i t 1 ti • • i , a I 1 ii t f I, llt r i k • I I ti s 1 4 l i i l i . .4 ) ;, 1 1 il ,S• I 1 1 , ti 1 • t 4 1 ' ' , L • 0 1 . , 1111PERNL PA RLIAVEiI rt:'ttall HOUSE 4:=IDS, Jaws 26. .REIGSI °mos ‘rhe INa uis of LONDONDERRY said he wished 'to take the present opportunity of saying. a few words about the papers he had moved for, and confessed that in doing so he felt considerable delicacy, and no small degree of reiuMance, because it must naturally give him grew pain to appear to adopt a line of conduct which hrd been abandoned by hi, Noble Friends who had given notices of motion calculated to pot to the test the principles of the Administration Circumstances had occurred to induce his Noble Friends not to come forward with ihese motions s and it might be, perhaps, but proper in him to acquiesce in the correctness of the determination they had come to, and pursue a similar line of conduct. His Noble Friend (Lord Goderich), upon the opposite heoches. might accuse him of faction, but he could tell his Noble Friend that the school of faction was not thf school he bad been brought up in. His principles, he could assure his Noble Friend, lay another way. He had never, at any period of his life, shewn the slightest disposition to faction; but nothing should prevent him from distinctly stating his opinions with respect to the individual at the head of his Ma jesty's Government, or from saying that the present Administration was one founded upon manoeuvre and intrigue, and fostered by delusion.. He wished most sincerely that his Noble Friends bad proceeded with the "C slag., hod g• neisa._ They "p la id have then seen the sense of the House, and have given his Noble Friend, who had, be presumed, become the leader of the Whig Opposition in that House, that fair field for which he had so frequently asked upon behalf of himself and colleagues. For himself he would say, that he was persuaded fully that that fair field and no favour would not have been so agreeable to those upon the benches opposite as they seemed to have anticipated. He was pet fectly convinced that if the motions of his Noble Friends had been brought forward, they would have put Ministers to the same embarrassment as the Corn Bill. He contended that this must have been the result, because the Government was founded upon no principle whatever. A Noble Friend of his had said, upon a former occasion, of some of the Members of the present Administration, that they would be the basest of man kind, if the Government did not act upon the principles of Lord Liverpool. And upon another occasion, a Noble Lord now connected with the Government, and possess ing great weight and influence amongst them, had posi tively and unequivocally declared, that the Government was not formed upon the principles of Lord Liverpool. The only conclusion which could be drawn from this, obviously was, that the Government was founded upon no principles at all—(Hear, hear). Fortunately for them, however, they had arrived at that period of the Session, when it was impossible to bring this more completely to the proof. Having said thus much upon the present state of the Administration, he would now refer to the papers. upon their Lordshir' table. He would not trespass upon their Lordships time by going into details, 'but would cantent himself with stating the results. He eras ready to allow that the expenditure at home TO inained much Vie same-- , in fact, there was little eerie lion in it since the year 1322. With respect to the el peniliture abroad. the case, however, was widely dif ferent. In Ihe year 1822. the expenditure of the Foreign Office abroad had been 241,2751. in the year 1826, it was 285 8571. and, therefore, there was an increase of 44,58.1. And allowing 28,1701. for the alterations with respect to the mode df paying Cansuls and -Vice-Con suls, there was stilt an excess of 164061. This was not certainly any thing very great, but he wished their Lord ships to look as to the immens,. increase of the patronage of the Foreign Office. The expense of this office gene s. all y,bad been in the year 182'2, 241 2451. In 1826 it was 572,4391. and, consequ-n le, the increase was 181,1941. The second re urn stated the number of new appoint ments which had taken place in consequence of the se cognition of the independence of South America, it ap peered that three new Envoys extraordinary had been appointed, and 25 Consuls or Vice-Consuls; and it fur ther appearea that there had been fourteen new appeint ',lents of Consuls or Vice-Consuls in France, making thirty-nine new appointments in all. The next return contained an account of the expenditure of secret ser vice money, about which some discussion had already taken place. In the year 1822, and in all the years preceding, except one, this account had never exceeded 30,0001. but, from the year 1822 to the year 1826, it had been increasing gradually until it amounted to up- wards of 58,0001. He had asked the Noble Lord now at the head of the Foreign °Ace, for separate accounts of the sums expended in secret service money at home and abroad, but the Nuble Lord had declined comply. ing with his request. He had,,however, ascertained what those sums were, and he would state them to their Lordships; if he were wrong, the Noble Viscount , (Dudley and Ward) could correct him. The expendi tore abroad had been 23.7181. at home it was 35,1251. This expenditure of secret service money at home, he Must say, he considered most lavish and monstrous, and he thought, that without accusing any body of breach of oath or honour, he might fairly question the judgrhent of the Right Honourable Gentleman who had lately been at the head of this department ; the more particularly as a Noble Friend of his (Lord Strangford) who was himself a celebrated diplomatist, bad thought proper to pronounce a glowing eulogy I upon the great merits of the now Prime Minister, in his situation as Chief Secretary for Foreign Affairs. His Noble Friend had bestowed the warmest praise upon the exactness of the Right Hon. Gentleman in that de partment of the service, and had stated that he always took especial care to get a god pro pro. He hoped the Right Honourable Gentleman had also succeeded in getting the grid pro quo at home—(A laugh). For himself he must be allowed to say, that he was com pletely at a lost to know how the money could have been spent at home. The Spanish Liberals might have been subsisted upon part of it, and it might have been applied to other purposes. He would only once more re. toark upon the subject of this return, which was. that t`se expenditure of the last four years,exceedad that of the tour preceding by fifteen thousand pounds. The next return related to the Foreign Office Befldings,and to the I - . oust in Downing-street—the eapenditure amounted to about 43,0001.-8,0001. of which had bees laid out for furniture. Now, he was of opinion, that if such expense was to be incurred by the nation s for the sake of the Principal Secretary for the Foreign Department, there, was equal reason for lavishing money upon residences for the head of the Colonial Department, and for the Dint Lord of the Admiralty; sad he wished to know with what centateuance, after this. their Lordships could think of refusisfg say grant, however large, for.a real deco for the Lord High Admiral? He begged that, In rnaking these observations, he might not be spit* *ceded speak as a radical or as it professed economist. ge was by no means an advocate for paltry savings— but Re did not wish to have thesilitems come up without °lsere/ratio& Ile had lately read a speech in which it was said that the Right Hon. Gentleman at the head of the Government had, for the last five years, obtained such complete influence over persons in another place, that no animadversion was ever attempted to be made upon any expenditure which had received hi. sanction. The next return referred to the pensions of foreign M oisters, and upon this he would only remark, that an increase of 5,0001. had taken place. He would, how. ever, as bearing upon this return, state a case, but as it related to himself, he would not enter into particulars, because he considered that he would not be justified in taking up their Lordships time with anything of a private or personal nature. He would, therefore, content himself with distinctly stating, that he had been inlnted upon that particular return. The Fo. reign Office had anonymously, or at least unneces sarily, thrown charges against him into a channel which prevented On from repelling and denying them in the way he would have desired. He had held a correspen. deuce upon the subject with the Noble Lord at the head I of the Foreign Office, and if the Noble Lord would think proper to proclaim that correspondence, he (the Mar quis of Londondenpy)' would be. perfectly satisfied to have his conduct judged by it, and to have it decided whether he had or had not been unjustifiably calum niated. He would not take up their Lordships' time with farther observations upon this subject, but would revert iu she re►uros. Ia the Twit 1821, the total ex penditure of the Foreign Office amounted to 324,3021. r in the year 1826, it amounted to 581,8364—the total increase, therefore, amounted to 207,5341.—and allow ing 140,0001. for the expense incurred by ippoint- Ments, kc. in South America, there was a clear excess of upwaids of 70,0001. Now, my Lords, I conceive that as it is well understood that the First Lird of the Trees. mulls about to return to his place, the circumstances of the Right Hon. Gentleman's leaving the Foreign Office in a different situation from that in which he ob tained it from his predecessor, called for the expression of some opinion upon their part. He felt th it he ought to apologise to their Lordships for troubling them so long upon this occasion. He wished, however, to offer a few observations to them upon the returns he had moved for; and he also wished to take the opportunity of again •stating the opinion he had already several times expressed, with respect to the late changes in the Administration, and of declaring his most uncompro mising hostility to the Government, as it was at that time constituted. utter by th, Viscount DUDLEY and WARD asked, across the table, if k was the Noble Marquis's intention toconclude with any motion? The Marquis of LONDONDERRY replied that it was not, Viscount DUDLEY and WARD then rose, and said that the Noble Marquis had moved, with great pomp, for a vast number of returns ; and that, although the papers he had expressed so intense an anxiety to see had been lying for a considerable time upon the table The Marquis of LONDONDERRY interrupted the Noble Viscount, and said, the last of the returns he had moved for had only been laid upon the table within the last two or three days —(Order,•order I) Viscount DUDLEY and WARD resumed.—The , greater number of these papers had been lying for a length hf time upon the table, and yet, after all thel pomp and haul. with which the Noble Martinis had introduced his motion, he only then came up to offer a few unconnected and desultory remarks upon a parti cular branch of his Majesty's Govetament, without bat-, in; given any public Amite of his intention, or without !stinging forward any specific proposition. He felt that under these circumstances, he should be justified in not giving any answer to the desultory—unconnected—and according to Parliamentary usage, be believed, unfair, I remarks of the Noble Marquis. In using this language, he begged the Noble Marquis to understand that it was not his intention, or his wish, to offer him the least of fence, but he conceived that the course pursued by him (the Marquis of Londonderry) warranted this language upon his part ; for their Lordships would recollect that the papers had been asked for with considerable pomp, as if to preface some motion of the last importance, and as if some great discovery had been made— The Marquis of LONDONDERRY rose, bet was interrupted by load cries of " Order!" and resumed his seat. Viscount DUDLEY and WARD continued—The Noble Marquis said he wished to have the patronage of the_ Foreign Office laid before the country, and that he was desirous of instituting a comparison between the administration of the Foreign Office in the year 1822 and in the year 1826, or, in other words, between the administration of Lord Castlereagh and Mr. Canning. ' Now the result was, that there was hardly any increase of expenditure except such as could be fully accounted for. In the first place, there had been an increase in Ve expense of the consular department, owing to an arrangement which bpd not been carried into effect in the time of Lord Castlereagh, although it had received bit sanction—(Hear, hear). The arrangement he al luded to was, that of substituting salaries for fees. It was not for him to say whether this was tight or wrong, beneficial or otherwise, but it had been adopted by Par liament, and was one of the causes of the increased ex penditure. Another increase had arisen from another cause—but from a cause in which the country must re joice, since it arose from the extended commerce of Great Britain—from the increase of our foreign rela tions—from our increased intercourse with foreign States, and from the growth of the civilized world— (Great cheering). It was scarcely necessary for him to say that he alluded to the missions to the States of South America. These were the causes which had created the increase in the expenditure of the Foreign Office. The documents in proof of this had been laid before the other House, where everything had been ex plained, and he contended that they completely ac counted for the whole increase. It could not be ex pected that he would enter into the details but if any Noble Lord should choose to do so he would find that this was the truth, within a small sum. There was another point upon which it might, perhaps, be neces sary for him to say a few words. The N ible Mar quis bad commented upon the expense of the House for the Foreign Secretary in Downing-street. The expense was forty•two thousand pounds, which consisted of three several items—one of which, for the purchase of the ground amounted to 18,0001. Now the fact was, that au alteration had been contemplated so far back as the administration of Lord Grenville; and if a proper house was to be had, it mast have been of course neces sary to pay a considerable sum foe it. And he con tended, that if the Principal Secretary of State fin Foreign AtElits wit to have a Isom at all, it ought ksg hit sitanion In the country..wHe es, to ca 4 their lordships' attention at um Foreign Secretaries of aD the in Erorope had houses given to them ; that the foreign AMbassadors in many I had also houses greeted to them; and chat the house about which the Noble Marquis complained was not at ll to 'be compared to the palace with which the Noble Marquis was supplied at Vienna. There was one other point upon which he was desirous of offering a few remarks; but he feared he could scarcely succeed in making himself intelligible, un less their Lordships had some previous knowledge of the subject. The Noble Marquis had spoken of himself as injured, and had (if he had understood him rightly) complained of having been calumniated through the medium of the Foreign Office. The Noble Marquis had said, that if he (Viscount Dudley and Ward) would lay the papers before the House, he would be satisfied to have his conduct judged by them; but he (Viscount Dudley and Ward) felt thy it was not the regular way to lay these papers before the House, or else he would feel most happy in doing sr. As far as the history of the transaction went, to which allusion had been made. he had no objection, since it was the desire of the Noble Marquis, to lay the whole of it be fore their Lordships. The facts were simply these:— an applitation was made by the Noble Loa for a pen don, to which he considered himself entitled, in consi deration of the time of his services. That application ins made by a Gentleman who had long held the sites din of Under Secretary of State for the Foreign De partment, to the Principal Secretary for Foreign Affairs. That Light Hon. Gentleman naturally did not wish to decide upon the merits of this application, or did net like to involve himself in any personal question with the Noble Lord, or to be compelled to set a value sipte his services. This application, therefore, was, by the l desire of Mr. Canning, referred to Lord Liverpool. If he mistook not, too. it was renewed, end it was thee that the Earl of Liverpool made a remark, which had' keen communicated to the public through the medium, Of the newspapers— The Marqu'is of LONDONDERRY—Through the medium of the Foreign O ffi ce. Viscount DUDLEY and WARD resumed, sad asked, how it was that the Noble Marquis could say by what channel it had been communicated to the public press, or how he could himself account los the knowledge he had obtained with respect to the Secret Service Money ? By what right could , the Noble Marquis pre tend to know anything about the Foreign Office, or how could be have obtained his information, except by the most gross and scandalous breach of faith upon rte part of some person in that office ?—(Hear, bear). Tate remark of Lord Liverpool upon the transaction was, " This is too bad." He did not pretend to say whether the Noble Earl had been right or wrong in making this remark ; he only meant to state the facts which had been so loudly called for, and so anxiously desired,' by the Noble Marquis. He could assure their Lordships that it never had been his intention to say a single word upon the subject ; and he certainly never would have brought it forward, if he had not been so repeat edly taunted and called on by the Noble Marquis to do so. Even now he felt extreme reluctance in speaking upon it ; but it was impossible that be could allow Noble Lot ds logo away with false impressions. He could safely deny that there had been anything unjust, or that the breach of confidence had taken place to any thing like the extent complained of. He did not know precisely how the Noble Earl's remark bad found its - way to the press; but he agreed a ith the Noble Marquis in thinking there could be no doubt that It must have been front the Foreign Office. But he would now ask in what way was jt a matter of that strict confidence it had been de scribed to be? A private letter was sent by the Noble Lord to an Under Secretary of State, who transferred it to the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, with whom, by the way, the Noble Marquis was neither upon habits of intimacy nor of confidential communication; the Secretary of State transferred it to the Prime Minister„, who sent it back to him, and it was deposited in the' Foreign Office. Thise were the circumstances of the' case, and this it was which was mentioned as such an extraordinary breach of confidence. For his part he could not allow that there was any gross breach of con fidence, or could scarcely acknowledge the fairness of the charges brought by the Noble Marquis, when he con sidered by what means that information, which was that night given to their Lordships, must have been ob tained. He did wit desire to censure the Noble Lord, nor to attach any blame to the course he had adopted. The transaction was one upon which he did not desire to el press an opinion. How far the Noble Lord was right or wrong, it was not for him to say. He had acted, he (Lord Dudley and Ward) presumed, upon a sense of duty, and on that he never would be desirous to pass censure. The observations, however, which the -Noble Lord had made, and which he had not followed up with any motion, were not of that natute to call for any minute explanations upon his part: and even if the Noble Lord had furnished him with a better clue, he would not conceive himself called upon to go through the details. At to the motives of the Noble Marquis, in calling for the returns, he would not speak, because, he believed, that it was not parliamentary to allude to the motives which might be supposed to induce a Mem.' ber of either House to pursue a particular line of con duct ; but he hoped he might be permitted to observe, that the papers had been called for with the tendency to cast a censure upon the Right Hon. Gentleman at the head of the Government, whose great and only crime it was, to hold the chief seat in his Majesty's Councils. The observations and motions of the Noble Lord had been thrown out with a vain hope of being able to fix upon the Right Hon. Gentleman the charge of being predigal in the expendirure of the public money—(Hear, hear 9-- He had taken some trouble to make inquiries upon the subject, and the result was simply this—the Right Hon. Gentleman at the head of the Government had for up wards of thirty years served the Crown, bringing to that service,_ it will be admitted, tolerable abilities, and in dustry that has been seldom equalled, and never was excelled. For his services during this long period of years, that Right Hon. Gentleman received 60,0001. — The Noble Marquis opposite served the Crown for ten years, and he received for his services one hundred end three score thousand pounds--(Hear, and laughter). He did not mean to say any thing disrespectful of the ser vices of the Noble Marquis, of shich he was no judge —for he really was not acquainted with them. He therefore did not mean to express the slightest doubt but that they were cheap at the money. But what he did mean to say was, that when attempts were made, even by indication, to fix upon the Right Hon. Gentle man at the head of the Administiation, the charge of being a prodigal servant, it was but fair and right that t he public should be put in possession of the se !that they might juage whose services had been most in proportion to the recompense he had received—(Hear, h-ar I) The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said he hoped he might be excused for again troubling their L t d. ships with a few words In reply to what hit fallen from the Noble Viscount oppmite. He could not help think. ing that the Noble Viscount had taken an extra& di nary line in answer to the papers and his statements u.m i them. He had alluded merely to item. in the eeene au . but the lioble Viscount had chosen to go into p er . ona j .tier, which he haJ purposely abstained from mizint up with the general subject. With respect tothe ch arges which had been brought agar .t him when h e ei lk. d upon the Noble Viscount to bring the tram ction fop ward, he hai also tilled upon him for a declaration of the truth, the whole truth, and nothing bus the truth 1. hut instead of complying with that request, the lgoble Viscount had gone into a garbled exposition, which was calculated to - give any thing incept the correct and proper view of the case. He would not, howeve r , net . withstanding what had passed, take up their Lord s hi ps r time with a matter purely personal, farther than by leading to them a single letter. It was ore which he had addressed to the Noble Viscount immediately after seeing the charges which had been brongh: against him in the newspapers : . . Hat Manna Reuse, May 14,1W7. Me Due Loan—Raving just read is the old num DM of today a libel upon my character ' in which it is state d, that upon an application of Woe for a pensions • wt of the prescribed form,' Lord Liverpool bad barmen indoned thew weeds—. Tkie is toe bad," I feel pervaded that you will inform me, whetherjo your opinion, It be possible that, accidentally or mbitterke the aloe aver winch you preside can have been nem/earl to such a statement? If the feet be trot, it win sbew that confidential or official documeuts ' are° commenkoted for indirect purposes of personal attack, wo where they an be met and answered, but by throwing them law anonymous channels. Whatever may be the character given of my proceedings in Parliament, I disclaim any tido( but being direct and open against public men and public measures; and I despite any other mode too much to have recourse to it. I request, therefore, before I take any farther stir that you will bare the goodness to favour me with an answer to th e goer, I knee made; and that you will forward one, as soon as poodles, espies of I all the correspondence relating to my application for the pistils, together with Mr. Cemning's Wier, as to my services, an my reds nation of the Vienna Embassy. ( 1 111 044 ) VANE LONDONDRRRT. —To that letter he received an answer from the Noble Lord (Dudley), completely denying the truth of what had been charged, and, in consequence, he had cone. dered the matter at an end, and urtect no further in it. Their Lordships would, however, judge of his surprise, at receiving, in seven or eight drys alter that tosser, letter from the Noble Secretary, stating that he (1,44 Londonderry) was not to draw any inference from his former letter, as it was found that the official cones. pondence upon the subject was actually in existence. On receipt of that letter, he wrote to the Noble Lord the letter he would then read. Nolderneme Home, Staid. Mr Loan—My absence at Chiswick, until a late hotel= eight, prevented my answering your Lordship's letter sower. As knee appears that a 'private' and 'confidential' remark of Lord Liverpool's arising out of my private communication to Mr.Planta,on my resit nation at the Vienna Embassy (of the existence of which, or !eyelet like it, I never could have the lean intimatien),bas, after a laps at six or seven years, been anonymously conveyed to the rabbets, the Foreign Office, cad has now been, for the first time,' eikiser eemeaunguted to me, I think it necessary for me to place Mi. direct attacks at defiance, and to thew, lst, from the records In dr Foreign Once, that all the diplomatic servants of the Crown it. calved passim's, with the esceptices of myself, wbe gave up ts Lord Liverpool's nomination a Military Goverment of Ate a-year for life, 'Without any equivalent. is 1521, the year mode/ my retirement front the Vienna Embassy.—std. To thew dead. melon in which my humble serekee,MOkary and dipionmitotare held by my Sovereign and superiors, during thirty years' sink', sad especially daring She period I held the situation of tea jesty's Ambassador at Vienna. (Signed) VANE LONDONDERRY. —What he chiefly complained of was, that it was not until air five or six years bad elapsed that that note of Lord Liverpool's had come out, and then it came is the first instance anonytnously from the Foreign Mu; and, secondly, it was made publics .lely in consequence of the lice of conduct he bad thought right to putsueitt that House. No individual, be believed, had ever bees so treated. He had also wished to avoid all personal subjects, but that was not to be done, and he thanked the Noble Lord for the kindness heltacl displayed that night, but had much rather that it should be exercised in another way, namely, by a publication of the whole correspondence. Lord DUDLEY and WARD said, that be had never dace alluded to the subject, nor wished to do so, until the Noble Marquis himself had commenced the subject. Lord ELLENBOROUGH said, that the conversa tion which had t4ken place was extremely irregular. He was not aware that it was the intention of his Noble Friend (the Marquis of Londonderry) to make any ob servatioos upon the papers which were laid upon the table, and, in point of fact, there was no ca., opus the face of them which could justify any charge against the Prime Minister for any insufficiency in his duty; bete* at the same time, he fe!t it necessary td observe ups the concluding remark of his Noble Friend opposite (Lord Dudley), in comparing the remuneration received by Mr. Canning for his services with that received by his Noble Friend near him (Lord Londonderry). Hi Noble Friend opposite knew that it was the policy of this couotry (whether good or bad, he could not say), not to attach very high remuneration to official situa tions in this country, as it Was thought that the dignity, the honour, and the power and patronage attached to those offices, were fully sufficient rewards. There was a great difference, however, with respect to ambers*. dorial situations, and Ambassadors stood more in the light of repre.entatives of the wealth and dignity of the country, than as deriving the least personal advantage — a truth, of which be was perfectly convinced. As, how• ever, the Noble Lord had alluded to the sums so given. be would call to his Noble Friend's recollection, that tha First Lord of the Treasury had once occupied a situation similar to that of Lord Londonderry ; and also, that the rate of remuneration given to that Gentleman during. his stay at Lisbon, had been much greater than that et Lord Londonderry, during his embassy at Vienna. The conversation here dropped. The tali of LAW:SERE/A LB presented, Petition from cersis Owners and Occupiers of Land la the county of Suffolk, 55. 44 the Bonded Corn Bill wow before the Home. Earl STAN HOPE presented a Padden for the imposition cif Tan on Foreign Wool, from the Owners and Occupiers 1400: Acres of Land, who were als o Owners of 50,000 Sheep. in a around Marlborough Dawes. His Louisa' , presented similar Petitions front the Farmer .„ Graziers, and Breeders of Cable of liackley and Warms in "- County of Suffolk. miasma on wane PROCNE ELL. Lord TENTEKUSN, after a few observations, sieved al second read og of the Attest and Mesas Process SUL Lord RSDESDI LS oeieeted to the SUL There were a neither of persons, his Lordship said. who bad some property whkh odd trot be taken is executioe, and who wow about getting into debt , or small sums within the limits of the law of arrest. and thus sot ipportunity -was given of defrauding tradesmen. lie knew one ir* lividstl who had lived in that way for forty yeas—(lies! gni; laugh). Ile tboied, at the titre time, nt. o'ijmtion a " 1 Ii am IN ell tl : bei tb4 U. up 141 Al