Star. — London, England, 1806-06-13 00:00:00

Did you receive a draft, or the produce of a draft of Lord Melville, to the amount of 14371. to even the account between the loan and the flock you had re ceived as a pledge for that loan? I never received a draft of Lord Melville. Did you receive a fern of 14371. in order to make that event I received it from Mr. Alexander Trot ter, as far as my memory goes. Cannot you refer to your banking book, in which you have the exalt amount of the fum ? Turn to the book, May 22d [Soo? I have not got the book here. Do you reeollea that you did receive that Ilan of 14271. i t s. t ld. ? I do. Do you know from whom you received that ? I think, from the belt of my knowledge, it was from Alexander Trotter ; I am Pure it was On whole account did you receive it ? On the Hon. Robert Saunders Dundas's account. Did you creole& money bufincfs largely at any time for Mr. Alexander Trotter ? I have borrowed Money of Mr. Alexander Trotter, and have lent him confiderable turns ; large funs. Did you ever purchafe Navy or Vidualling Bills, or other Government Securities for Alexander Trotter, and for his benefit and advantage ? I once purchafed Navy Bills to the amount, I Paid, of ten or twelve thou faad pounds ; but I find in a book I have found (ince, there is an account of the Navy I purchafed for him. Refer to your book, and (fate what is the quantity of Navy Bills you fo purchafed ? That would take up a long time to do. Whether the Navy Bills you fo purchafed for Alex ander Trotter at any time were ever at a difcouot ? I have no memory of that. Do you recoiled Alexander Trotter borrowing a turn of money of you in preference to the file of his Navy Bills 1 I remember his borrowing money of me, a confi devable (urn; I have reafoo to think it was to prevent his felling his Navy Bills. Croft examined. Had you any pecuniary tranfadions with Lord Mel wale is your life ? Never. H.ve you any acquaintance with Lord Melville? A I f very ll,ght one. I have had the honour two or three times of being in Lord Melville's company, but never a word of money or any thing of that kind paff:d. Were not you applied to by Mr. Troyer in tSoo to • advance money to him on certain flock ? I a as. State the particulars of that tranlaftion to the heft of your recolleaion, and with whom it was ? Mr. Trotter toad me that he willted I would do him the favour of lending him uron India Stock and reduced Loyalty Stock ; I *mei to lend it him. He propofed for me to lcnd it to the Honourable Robert Dundas ; I then had a mee.ing with ilse Honourable Robert Dundas, and I laid I would not lend it upon heavy flock, loch as In dia and Loyalty too, which was a heavy flock ; but that I wilted to lend it upon Three per Cent. Confols and India. The fum wanted was fifty eland - and odd pounds, upon which I had a meeting with him next day, and that 4031. mentioned was to reduce the flock that the di vidend of India and the dividend of Loyalty fbould be e per cent. equal to the fum lent five per cent. Then was it upon that account that you received from Mr. Trotter 14271. tn. I id.? It was. Had you any intercoarfe with Lord Melville duriog the mule of that tranfaElion ? None. Was the Stock difpofed of or not ? It was rather long winded ; I was anxious to get my money ; 1 had ftatd two or three y od I wrote either to the Honoura ble Robert Saunders Dundas or to Mr. Trotter, begging permillion to fell the Stock ; for I did not think things were clear. Look at the paper put into your hand ; is that your hand-writing? It is, and this can tell the very dates. Was that paper wiitten by you at the time of the tranf. aflion ? It was. Can you, by having your memory refrelbed from that paper, fpecify the particulars of the tranfaElion ? Yes I tan ; the fum of India Stock was 54 pool. which was valued at the price of the day, a tol. the Confols 35,5291. is. 3d. valsed at 601. that made 51,7671. 15s. The fum that I lent there is intereft from silt May, ISco, to the 2I ft May tdot, 3,5881. 7s. 9d. Then there is cads paid Alexander Trotter 3oth October ,• this was to bring the interell to a date. I remember Mr. Trotter laid, you have got this 4001. odd pounds, now the intereft wtil bring it to this date ; to the 3oth ()Sober it makes the intereft 5 per cost, and the intereft of the fum lent 5 per cent. ......• You fay you have had various money tranfattions with • Mr. 'Trotter, lending money and borrowing money ; whe . thee thefe money tranfattions with Mr. Alexander Tim. ter were not all entirely upon Mr. Alexander Trotter's own account ? His own account. Have you any knowledge or belief that any 3tfler per• fon whatever was concerned to this tranfaeion ? None. Or that they were for the benefit or advantage of any other perfoo ? None. The witnefs thould be confined to his knowledge ? I do not know it of my own knowledge. Q . Lieltion by Counfel.—Whether you had any know. ledge, at the time of thefe tranfatlions, that the money advanced to you at direrent times by Mr. Alexander Trotter was public money ? None : 1 might formife and conjetlure, as he was Paymalter of the Navy; but I had no knowledge of it. Had you any knowledge of Mr. Trotter and his con. °Miens, and whether his nearelt connettions were not perfons in cuntiderable opulence ? Mr. Coutt.'s father end Mr. Trotter's father were partners. Mr. Trotter's 11, brother is a partner in the houfe of Thomas Cools and t2o and he has a brother of corfiderable fortune ; and lie t has feveral very confiderable connatioos. And I having tut my Stock, as a fecurity to Mr. Trotter, into Coutt s name, I was led to think it might be Mr. Coutta's mo ney. 1 had borrowed money, and have money of.hirn now upon Government fecurity, and did not Mow whe ther Alexander Trotter might not be the channel of con veyance. Qzellion by a Manager.--liave you any knowledge that this turn of money fo advanced by Loan to the amount of fifty five thouland odd hundred pounds was for Lord Melv,lle ? . • Queltion by Counfel.—The witnefs has already faid, that he had never any conference with Lord • , elville ; therefore, whatever he knows mull be upon the infoima tioo of others? I am not certain of that ; neither could I upon my oath fiy whether Mr. Trotter mentioned Lord Melville's name or not. ()...ueltion by a Manager.— Do you know, of your own knowledge, whether this money was advanced for Lord Melville's putperfes or out ? I do not know. What was the nature of the fecurity you received be ide the Stock itielf ? A miffive letter Mr. Robert Dun. das gave me, laying he had borrowed feat muchmuds money upon that Stock ; and I engaged to 1CC030 , . 10 him for the dividend ; and he was to allow me inter& for the money. NI: 4 TH DAY, FRIDAY, MAY 9. _ _ gr. John Meheux examined. Are yon an Officer at the Board of Controul for the Affairs of India ? I am. How long hare you held any fituation there ? From the firll ellablifbment of that Board, in September 1784. Who was Prefident of that Board at the time you firft took your feat there ? The late Lord Sydney. Who fueeeeded Lord Sydney ? Lord Grenville. Who fueceeded Lord Gienvdle ? Lord Melville. How long did Lord Melville clntinue in that fitua• tion ? From 1793, till the 19:11 of May, I believe, tl3ot. Did you receive a fslary for Lord Melville as Pre fident of tne Board of Controul, after the time that a fa lacy was anaexed to that office ? No, not from that time. Did you e►er recei►e the falary for Lord Mel►ille ? I do not know that I did e►er abfolutely recei►e it, be cattle I recei►ed the whole fum of money for the pay mcat of the office at the India Houfe, and paid Lord Mel►ille's proportion of it on Lord Mel►ille's account into Drummond'a houfe. Did you pay any proportion of it to any other perfoo ? Never. Croft examined Q2eilion by Couniel—When did Lord Melville be come PreGdent of the Board of Controul ? From the moment be &ft entered on that Office he began to do duty. When was that ? From September 1784. From September 1784 till May tBot Lord Melville did the whole bufineli of that exteofive Department ? I may fay he did almoß exclufively ; I might alto go further and fay quite, with the other Members that were of the Board junior to him. Was the bufinefs of the office at that time, and parti cularly at the bra periods of it, a bufinefs that required very great and within attention ? Very great and (what, without any Salary, 1 believe, till 1793. Theo for the irft nine years of that time Lord Mel ville executed the duties of that extenfive department without any Glary at all ? Without any Glary whatever. Do you recoiled that that was the period when the brit eftablinsment took Islam of the Board of Controul, 1 784 ? Certainly, &ad I believe they brit met on the 3d of September 1784 at the Treafury. Mr. Geo. Fennell, of the Navy Pay Office, Rated, that the Accountant's Branch had been interrupted, and at fall fufpended for a period by the Clerks being with. drawn to affift in other branches, whole bufinefs had ac. cumulated in confequence of the preirure of the war. Ha knew that the public money had been lodged at Coons's, having received a draft on them for public money. The Right Honourable Charles Basgge Bathurft was examined. Were you at soy time Treafurer of the Navy ? I was. When were you appointed to that Otfice ? In No vember. tint, I think. How long did you continue in that office ? Till the Spring of 1803. Who was your Payrnafter during that time ? Mr. Trotter. The witnef, Itated, that he direeed the praftice of lodging money at Coutts's to be difcontinued in Summer iSoa, and had never heard of any inconvenience re. ful ing from the change. The principal duties were perfcrmed by the Paymaller. The whole fuhjeft or payments was totally out of his own perfonal knowledge. Mr. Thomas Wiifon, of the Navy Pay Office, was next examined. He was confidentially employed by Mr. Trotter, and did It's bufincfs in his abfence. Did you, in the capacity of a confidential friend of Mr. Trotter, draw money during his abfence in his offi. cial concerns ? Do you reco!left a tranfaeion with re gard to a (urn of 4.0,0001. in or about the year 1796, io which Lord Melville had any concern ? I do. State that to the Court ? Lord Melville fent for me, and delired to know whether a lam of money could be (pared from the public acclunt ? I told him that the furn of 40,0001. might be fpared from the public ac count, and he defied me to bring it accordingly. Did you aft upon Lord Melville's diree+on in that refpett ? Molt certainly. Was Mr. Trotter in London at that time ? I believe not. Was Mr. Trotter at the Pay Office at that time ? Cori - equal;ly he was not at the Pay Office, he waa not in London. Did you make a communication of that tranfadica to Mr. Trotter by letter ? I did. Did Lord Melville know that you had an authority from Mr. Trotter to draw upon the public account? I prefume fo. Whether you ailed under that authority generally or occaficroally given to you by Mr. Trotter during his ab fence, either in Scotland or cif:where, fubfequently to that tranfattion ? I certainly did fubfequcnt to that tranfaftion. Both from the houfe of MelTrs. Coutts's and the Bank? What was the mode in which you drew for the pubic money fubfequtnt to that tranfattion, either from Meffrs.Coutta's or trom the Bank ? When I drew money from the Bank, it was in blank checks, figned by Mr. Trotter, which were lodged in my (tally ; when I at drew upon his account Mtflrs.Couttes, fired Tho mas Wilfon for Alexander Trotter • _ . _ Were you employed by Mr. Trotter fubfequent to this tranfaetion to employ public money for Mr. Trotter's private advantage? Certainly I was. Did you aft upon that authority? I did certainly. Can you flaw to what extent? I cannot hate to what extent ; but I certainly did to a contiderable extent. Ate you coaverfant in the bulincfs of the Navy Pay Office ? 1 have a general knowledge of it. Do you know, of your own knowledge, whe• then the Paymafter of the Navy ever makes fmall cafh payments to the payees, or that he makes them, by the curtom of the office, through the fub•accovntants ? Excepting the payment of fees upon money received from the Exchequer, the Paymaft,r makes no other payments but in large round turns to the fub accountants. Describe what the na.tire of the Exchequer fee money is, as contradillinguifhed lions the other public money of the office ? I have no further knowledge of it than this, that it has always been tl e praltice of the office ever fence 1 belonged to it, that certain furns of mo. ncy, amounting to 30001. at a time, hate been iffued front the Exchequer, and placed in the hands of the pay• mailer, fur the purpole of paying thole fees upoo money received at the Exchequer. Have you ever youfelf had the cuflody of the Ex chequer fee money ? Yes. Did you derive any pr ft or advanuge horn that cuf tody ? I certainly did. What was the average amount of the balance left in your hand of Exchequer fee money ? It amount to &pool. Might not theadvantage upon the average be comrut. cd at or about 3col. a-year ? I do not think it puMhle that it could amount to fo much. When was the Exchequer fee money deivered over into yew cuflody? I fpeak upon corillure, but I believe fome time about the year • Soo. How long did it continue io your cuflody ? Uotil the Treafurerfhip of Mr. Canning, when I paid over the balance of Exchequer fees into his Paymafter's hands. Who did you receive the Exchequer fee money from? Mr. Trotter. Had Mr. Trotter had it, to your knowledge, a confl &table time previous to the period you lalt mentioned ? I prefunie Mr. Trotter had it from the time of his becom ing Paymalter of the Navy. Did Mr. Trotter waive the cuftody of that Exche quer fee money exprefrly for your benefit ? I prefurne that he did ; he certainly derived an advantage from it himfelf, and I made the fame ofe of it that he did. Are any payments made tut of that fund, except for fees done dcfcription or another, according to the conrfe sod practice of the Office ? None that I know of. Did you ever converfe with Lord Melville upon !ha butinefs of the Office ? Ido cot recoiled that I ever did. Croft examined. You have been alked refpreling a tranfaelion in the year 1796, of a fum of 40,0001. that was drawn Irons the Bank, and paid to M. Pitt ; is that the fame loin of mor.ey which was afterwards the fubjed of public inquiry in the Houk of Commons? I believe fo. You have faid, that you were in the habit of laying out Tome of the public money for Mr. Trotter's private emolument ; I defire to know, whether in any ioltance of your having done that, it was ever dose with the pri vity and knowledge of ord Melville ? I folernoly be. liem not. To feveral quellions by the Lords, whether Lord Melville was acquainted with the trult repofed in him by Mr. Trotter, he replied, in fubllance-1 cannot fwear on my knowledge that it was fo, becaufe no cooverfatioo ever palled between Lord Melville and me upon the fubjee. HA you the fame truft repofed in you by Mr. Trot ter, daring the other Treafurerfhip of Mr. Ryder, Mr. Bathurft, and Mr. Canning ? I certainly had. Have you any reafon to know, or can you fwear that thefe gentlemen were acquainted with it ? I cannot fwear to it, becaufe I never had any converfation with thefe gentlemen upon the fubjee. Was the draft for 40,0001. upon the Bank of Eng land madly for that fum I cannot aofwer that queftioo. If you had not had blank drafts from Mr. Trotter, how could you have got that fum from the Bank of Eng. land ? I prefume that I had drawn a much larger fum from the Bank of England and placed it to the account of Mr. Trotter, at Mr. Coutts's houfe, and from thence I had drawn the fum 0140,0001. Are you certain that the 40,0001. or any part of it, was drawn from Mr. Coutts's houfe, and not dlrcely from the Bank ? I cannot fwear to that, but I believe from Mr. Coutts's houfe. Had you authority to draw upon any other account than fir Mr. Trotter's private ufe ? Certainly, for the public fervice. Had you any other purpofe than the public fervice ?, Yes, Mr. Trotter's private account. Had you for any other authority hat for the public fervice, or Mr. Trotter's private ufe ? I had nor. Nor in effeet did you ever draw any except for the public fervice, or fur the private ale of Mr. Trotter ? Never, to the belt of my recollation, *inlets it was on account of the Exchequer Fees, of which I made a private advantage. To whom did you nay that 40,0001. ? I do not know into *hole hands I paid the bank notes, but it was in the pretence of Loid Melville and Mr. Long, of the Treafury. Whether, at the time that payment was made, you received any acknowledgement or receipt of having made that payment ?—Nune. In what manner did you enter that fain of 40,000 l in your account ? I kept no account of it myfelf. The witnefs was direfted to withdraw. Mr. Swaffield examined.—You have been upwards of fivty years in the Navy Pay, Office ; have you, during any part of that time, kept any part of the public money entrufled to you, except in the Bank of England, or in your own poffellion ? Not till of late years. Have you kept any part of it of late years at the houfe of Mrirrs. Coups ? That was the only private Bank I ever made ufe of. Why did you put your money there ? Mr. Trotter required it of me. Were you wiiling fo to do ? It was done reluBantly. Did you fird any convenience refulting from having the money at Mr. Cuutts's ? None at all. Dd you find it produced any confufion in your ac-, counts? In two inflances I was rather perplexed about it. Croft examined. Queflicn by Counfel—Whether this defire of Mr. Trotter to you to keep your money at Meals. Coutts's WAS a defire to which Lord Melville was to your know ledge privy ? Ido not know that he was. The witneis was direaed to withdraw. The meant, made out for the Comnsiffioners of Na• dal Enquiry. of balances of public money in the hands of the Treafurer of the Navy sod bis Cafhiers anti Sub. Accountants, made up to the 3t@ of December in each year face :790 to tilos, with the toms (landing is the Treafurer's navoe in the Doak at fuch periods, were now g;reo in ; alto a fimilar accouat from 1784 to 1789, in- The Right Honourable G. Tierney, who entered into the office of Treafurer of the Navy io the end of iBc3. flared, that at irft he employed Mr. Trotter as bis Pay.. mailer, sad afterwards Mr. Latham ; that a very coofiderable alteration took place almo lt immediately upon the appointment of Mr. Latham, an alteration for which he was indebted to a ffiggediuo of Mr. Trotter. He defcribed it as follows : Heretofore it had bern the ceders for the Sob Accountants to wait upon the Pat/matter in the morning, dating what turn they thrw:J t p i e on et o b t ly t vi h r d t ay i oat:der upon c a st:7 i, o r n ep th r t e i i cu ot r a r t e i n t ti e l r a a c t; was drawn wino' the Bank and hfcireggcrs dilititchw with i , who came beck bringing horse ti.e money, which was delivertd to the Sub Accoaetant the altesgion I made was that sAer: a Sub Accountant applied re the Paymafter tor a turn If money, no fuch proceeding took place as a draft being gii.en by :he Paymaffer upon the Bank of England ; the mode to obviate t hat s e_ celh , y adopted by m- was this, that four d.fferent ac. counts were raif..d at the Dank in the name of 114 fuel' principal clerks who had the payn.tnt of the money, and , hefe accounts being fo ra.frct in the bank boars ir.fttad of their being put in cafh by the Paymatket's drat!, the Paymalter wrote to the bark an order, finial/. write off from my account to the account of the Sub Accuse. rant in queflion, the ram which he :.ad fated to bo accet Cory for carrying 00 the ordinary payments. Croft examined Tr N II I After the alteration took p:ace, did it Ili!f continue to be the ufage of the Office to make fmall payments in cad% at Somerfet Houfe ? I apprehend that new regulation, which I have endeavoured to defcribe, created ni. al era tion whatever in the puftice of the Office, but only el feeted the mode of bringing money from 'be Bank to the Office. Do you kflow that (Mal! payments to a confiderable amoun• were made daily at the Office at Somerfct Houle in the proper departments ? I know it as well as i. can know any thing which I did rot aCtually fee. I apple. bend there is not the ltall dealt upon the lubjrCl, bit: sot having fcen the aCtual payments made, I cannot under take to (wear to it. You are under Rood to fay, that you gave& rower of attorney Lill to Mr. Trotter, and afterwards to Mr. La. tham, to execute the duty of Payroalter, and to ad u your deputy ? I did. Mr. Latham's examinaticn. Were you Paymalter to Mr. Tierney whillt be was Treafurer of the Navy ? I was. Did you adt in all the offreal co/ice - no of the Tres. furerfhip of the Navy under a power of attorney given you by Mr. Tierney ? I did. - _ Did you make any payments yourfelf petfonally as Paymalier of the Navy, or dire all the money to the Sub Accountants for that purple ? I never made any perfonal payments ; I always iffued money for that pur pole to the Sub Accountants. Was the eat% balance during your Paymafterfhip in the Bank of England ? Yes. Did you delegate the power given you by Mr. Tierney to any body elk ? Never. Did you prallife the mode of carrying money from yourfelf to the Sub Accountants ? I did. Did thefe utrite.offs bear upon the face of them the different branches of Navy, the Vitlaalling, and Pay ? Not that I recul.ed ; the name of each individual ac countant was !fated upon the write-off. Croft examined. Fl,.w long did you continue in that office of Papa ter ? Ten months. Did it happen to you to be lick or abfent during that time ? To have been abbot once on accouot of fick nefs in my family for about a week. Who did the bufinefs for you during that week ? What it was seceffary to attend to Mr. Tierney offici ated for me in my abfence ; the drafts were fent to me to my houfe in Brook-Brett. Had you no other interruption from attending to your duty, except that week's ficknefs ? Never, that I recolleß. Attu the bum was written off to the Sub Accountant, had the Sub Accountant the full commit over all the money fo written off' at the Bank ? He certa.nly bad. An order, figned by Lord M. defiring /delfts. Coutts and Co. to put certain bums of flock at the clifpofal of Mr. Sprot was then read and admitted. Mr. Sprot was again called in. You were silted yefterday to give the Court informa tion as to the value of a draft which you received from Mr. Alexander Trotter, to the amount of 1,4271. ; you laid you had left your banking book behind ; now look at that book which is put into your hand, can you afcer tain from that book that you received that tom ? Yes, t. 4271. and there were odd (billings and pence, which I put in my pocket ; I received it in bank notes, I have been fince I was examined by the Committee to my bankers and traced the notes : the bankers were fo good as to look over the notes, and I found the bank noes numbers, with which I furnithed the Consmi.tee. fo that I received this mancy from Mr. Trotter, I prefume ; but I cannot fay. Then an indorfement on the back of the letter of the t 6th May 1134>0, from the Vdcount Melville to Mall. Coutts and Co. was theV/17 to the witnefi, and he was silted, Lock at that paper ; is the fignature at the bot tom of it ycur writing ? It is my hand writing. The witnefs read its, follows : Loudon, at May, :Soo. Melba. Thomas Coutts and Co. I write thus to ac• knowledge your having transferred the films of flocks mentioned on the other fide, agreeably to the direft•oes given you by me, and I have received the produce of the fales, which I have paid into your hands. amounting to 20,4521. 4.1. sd. Manx SPROTT. _ _ Now refer to the other fide of that paper, and (Ice whether the flock there mentioned and &rated to be transferred to you by Lord Melville, cunlti,uted a part of the fecurity upon which you made the advance of 51,500). to the joint fecuri y of Mr. Robert Dundas ? pielume that it was ; but 1 have no Ihdclow of recol knit's of it. I have read this paper, and 1 declare that have no more recolletlion of it than the child inborn. Do you know that the flock for which you Ggirted your name as haying received, attd for which you.paid the confideration of 20,0001. was the flock which formed part of the fecurity, together with that of Mr. Robert Dundas for the loan you advanced ? I fee, from this pnper, that certainly this Rock mutt have been fold by me, and Confols bought, with which the 14.5001. made the amount of the fum which I lent Mr. Robert Dandas; but I have no recollaition of that paper at all. If you have any memory of the tranfaftion, whether the flock was then braid out or not ? Certainly the flock was fold out, and I prelims by myfelf ; for I remember perfeitly well that I would not lend the Honourable Rotten Saunders Donde. upon Loyalty, becaufe the other was a beery flock. and that I would I,nd it upon Conical, but not upon that. Queßion from a Lord.—Had you any interview with Lord Melville io ScoiNtnit ? Not a ihad.:ur ; I have not fern his Lorrlthsp thole f•u , or 6ve years till 1 law him in this Court ; not the leaft in•ervievr ; nor with his fon the Honourable Robert Saunders Dur.das ; 1 have neither teen the one nor the other, nor had Any commu nion roe communication direß•y or inditealy. The remaining evidence of this day was very unistr reft:ng. TENTH DAY, SAI uaDAY, MAY to. The Goal accutot of Lord WWll's'. usaforoslbip r