Star. — London, England, 1813-03-03 00:00:00

llilte any expedient ty which the pebpie of the Cisatek , !night have the security they desired, in the present '. debate ; the only advantage then that a Committee 'would afford them was, that they ',fluid be enabled to speak as often As they pleased, and that would be more than•counterbalanced by the want of that order which the authority of the Speaker was used to male..., taint The only expedient which had been suggested. for securing the interests of the Church was domestic nomination ; but he would appeal to any one convex.. sant with the subject to say whether this was not a still stronger measure than the veto, in which the (;a. thnlics had refused to acquiesce. and therefore very little likely to meet their approbation. [The Hon. Gentleman then read a passage from the petitions of the Catholics, in which they expressed their reluctance 40 adopt any measure which would interfere with their Veligions tenets ; and concluded with stating it as his Ibpkion. that the batter mode of mewing the goes , ton would be to bring in a Bill, the various clauses bf which should contain an exposition of the terms on Nvhich the Catholics would accept the.privileges they 'Claimed.) If it appeared there was a- feasible mode of conciliating them, at the same time that proper se curity could be afforded to the Church, there was eiti 'man would be more.willing than himself to impart to %hem the advantages of the Constitution. • 'Sir W. SCOTT said, it was the duty of the House • to watch over the interests of the Established Church is irfterwoven with the interests of the State. He 4culd not say but that the principle of exclusioli might be tarried. too far. It was a principle with hits that the Catholics should be excluded from all judicial offices connected with ecclesiastical affairs. For no thing could be so inconsistent as that of referring great questions on the subject of tythes, or other church affairs, to a Roman Catholic Judge. The Chancel lor and Master of the Rolls did exercise powers of this kind ; and they were also advisers of the King.; and he wished to knout whether it would be proper to trust the management tf such things as these to a Catholic Chancellor ? He was sorry to find that, for the first time, a principle cf disrespect had been in. troduced into that House against high and venerable Clergymen, whose wish it was to preserve their es tablishments. It could not be denied that there existed an hostility on the part of the Catholics against our Church ; and he quoted the authority of certain publications to prove this. The opinions of the Irish Catholics went much farther in this respect than the opinions of any other people in Europe, because the Pope had a more direct influence over them than over any others. In other countries the opinions of the Pope came to the inhabitants through their Go . seernments, which served as a kind of strainers to do away the ill effects of them ; but in Ireland, the Pope came in direct contact with the People, with out any such interventiue. There were 'also dog mas in the Catholic religion that were repugnant to the principles of toleration. He did lodk upon the Roman Catholic Prelates as conscientious men ; and many of them* were men of excellent education and talents. But still he could not lose sight of their tenets, nor forget that they were under the influence of the Pope ; on which account he must consider them as unfit for the possession of political power.— The preservation of our establishments imposed no penalties on Catholics. It was no more unjust than the restrictions laid on Pi otcstants in Catholic coup. tries. It 'was the duty of Catholic Governments to confine great offices of state to Catholics. The de parture from such a principle in ' France, by the appointment of M. Necker to be Prime Minister, he believed was the principal cause of all the calamities that afterwards were felt by France and all Europe. The only securities that could be given by elre Ca tholics, were such as it would be a violence on them to exact frem them. These were domestic Nomina tion and the Veto. It would be a violence to them • to eject the Pope. An Act to make him surrender' his power would be wholly depriving him of his su. • prernacy. Then he would ask, it there were any better securities ? If aCommittee were gone into they would go into it without any securities. Any power which the Pope might exercise hereafter must be the act of that subtle and dangerous tyrant Bonaparte, . in whose power his Holiness the . Pope now was. There was in Ireland a very large numerical majo rity of Catholics ; and, if the establishment was to be • preserved, the power must be vested in the minority. This was the only defence that could exist against • the physical power of this majority. Now, if both pities were admitted into an equal participation of power, wht would the consequence be? Why, that • the maiority of individuals would domineer over the others. One religion then must have a complete ascendancy—the other must be disarmed of its power of undoing such ascendancy. As to the proposed Committee, he could not see in it any prospect of a Leneficial result. He knew that most of the Protes tants of this kingdom left great anxiety and fear on this subject. The Catholics now tell us, that they considered all seculities as insults, injuries, and per secutions. Then, if we gave them limited power, without conceding all they asked, what were we do ing but giving an idle parade of good will, which they would leok upon with contumely and scorn.— Perhaps it might be attended with the same result as the Declaratory Act sent out by this country to Ame rica, in 1778. We were now called on, ho 'ever, to open the gates whiclecur ancestors would never have opened ; and we were called on to grope in the dart., without any object, without any ground to go upon, and without any evidence as to what ought to be dene. For these reasons he should oppose the motion. Lord CASTLEREAGH said, the vote he should give now would be the result of most mature delibe r,liv..l. He certainly should now differ from many with ‘s horn he had formerly acted ; and he should give his reasons for the opinion he had formed. He hoped th.t all party feelings would be left entirely out of the discussion. He assured the House he had not accered of power on any condition of taking any particular part in this great question, which ought entirely to be separated Irom the struggles of party, and left to 'proceed on its own principles. He was, therefore, surprised to hear an Honourable Gentle man (Mr. Plunkett) say, that the acceptance of office for mod any condition on which Gentlemen were to act on. this question. The Cabinet of Ireland had, on -a former occasion, brought in a Bill, they aban doned it, and afterwards remained in office. His sentiments on this subject at present were no secret to any Member of the House. He had long since de clared that he felt himself at liberty to give his own individual opiuion la such a way as etc conceived -•- theft ticivanbtsteeitis to due public. Tie did see dial reulties that appeared to 4 +e iosiirmounodile, in - ac complishing the, great objects in question :,.bur, at the same time, he wax amines to eo forward with others who thOtigSt they could accomplish the dim witty, There :.ippeared to he a general sense in. the Houle that a discussion must be entered inm upon it. It was upon this ground that he voted last sum mer for going into this Enquiry. He should not, however, give his assent to any specific measure that should not tend to secure the general tranquillity, and be acceptable to all classes of his Majesty's sub jects. He did not think there was any material change of circumstances, since the Vote of last summer, that ought to produce any change in the decision of the House at this time. It was true the intemperance of Catholic Leaders at the meetings of Catholics, did great injury to their own cause : but this intempe-. ranee existed as much last year as at this time, and the power of the Pope was not greater now. Nor did he think the declaration of the Bisle-ps was any ob stacle tosoing into an inquiry. The only thing the Catholics considered the Pope incompetent to do during his duress, was, that of divesting himself of his own power. In every other respect, they consi dered him_ as possessing all the ecclesiastical autho rity he ever had. There `Was not, then, any change Of circumstances that could operate as an argument against going into an inquiry. As to what had been said of the sentiments of the people against the Ca tholics, he was certain that, if the Catholics should hereafter conduct themselves in a temperate manner, some adequate regulation respecting them might be adopted, in.a way that would completely satisfy the minds of the people. The Protestants in every part of Ireland seemed to be in favour of the Catholics ; and had the Catholics pursued a different conduct in Ireland, -they would have had a great many more of the English Protestants on their side. He had been asked whether, if the House went into a Conimittee, he was prepared with any plan or pro position e On this point he. had no difficulty in say ing, that when the House should enter into the Committee, he hoped the Right Honourable Gentle man (Mr. Canning) would be prepared to point out some propositions to the Committee, as he was the mover of the resolution agreed to by the House last slimmer. For hi. own part he did not feel himself authorised to do more than he did last year. He certainly did see now, as he saw then, the difficulty of coming to any legislative arrangement on this ques tion. He therein' e could not charge himself with the responsibility of bringing forward any thing ; but if any mode could be sl'cwn by which any good could be effected, he should give his assistance in bringing it about. To attempt to prosecute any re gulations by which the Catholic Church should sub sist in this country, would be an insult. And lie himself should act the most contemptible part, if he conceded to the Catholics political privileges, and, at the same time, demanded sacrifices of them, which they could sot acquiesce in with honour.—(llear, hear).—He remembered at the time of the Conces sions, in 1793, nothing displeased them so much as the term which their friends now gave them, of Pa /lists. • They did not conceive it inconsistent with their Church to adopt the tenets of Catholics in all other countries. He would say, that whatever tem porary delusion might have grown upon the Catho lic mind in Ireland, it was only a temporary one.— He maintained that certain securities ought to be given, and he believed the Catholics themselves were deeply interested in an arrangement of this kind. As to the tenets of the Catholic Church, the House ought to look on them with a fair and liberal spirit. There was scarcely any church in which there were not some cm's handed down from our ancestors. But the proper view to look at this questum was this—to see what danger there would be from its connection with the Church of ?tome. The dangers that did once exist in Europe were said to arise entirely from the Court, and not from the Church, of Rome ;—and as that Court had no longer any power or ex istence, it was asked what danger was there ?-- This Church was certainly still an engine that might be dan i lerons in carrying a political object ; and this give rise to the necessity for securities. he Pore certainly had great power. The French Emperor, in the plenitude of his great authority, was not able to overwhelm the Pope, who had resisted him, as if he was a greater sovereign than himself. And this was a proof that he still held a great degice of political power. When General Moore was in Spain, a report from the Miaister of Police to Bonaparte happened tr• be found, and sent over to this country. The deli berate opinion of Fouche then was, that Bonaparte would surmount all his great difficulties, if he relaxed his severity to the See of Rome. This advice of ! Fouche was followed, and it produced its effect. Al- ter hip successes against Austria, Bonaparte renewed his severities against the Pope. Now, in his adverse fortune, he adopted another course, for the direct purpose of giving an influence over the most super stitious people in Europe. For these reasons it was fit that we should entertain a jealousy against this Power ; and that some sort of securities ought to be devised. Fur the power of the Pope was no longer to be considered in any other light than that of an engine in the hands-43f the French Government, for political purposes. He considered that the same feelings of attachment to the Constitution which had taught the Catholics to resist the power of the Pope, when exerted in firmer times to ctfeet the destruction of the liberties of this country, would enable them to resist any such danger, if it were to occur now. All he wculd ask of the Catholics of these countries would be, -to enter into the securities demanded of their Catholic brethren in other parts of Europe against the Papal power. Let the Catholics, there fore, not say that they were asking any thing unreae sonable or new from them, when they asked them to concur in suck safeguards employed for the i safety of the State, at a time when their's was the established .religion of the country. He solemnly declared, that, to the last hour of Mr. Pitt's life, be t c l Lord C.) 'had never had the least reason to believe at `his opinion bad been in the least shaken as to the expediency of this measure. That Right Hon. Gentleman, how ever, had found it so entangled with difficulties, that he never could see the time when it could be brought forward with propriety. On the subject of securities he had no difficulty in stating those which he thought would be necessary to be given by the Catholics. The whole intercourse between the See of Rome and this country ought to be fair and open, not secret and oc cult. There was nothing iq their religioe which .. • , • . • . • Make ad honest Catholic ollect to OA an af rarigeritek At a time w en the Pope was domi4l- hated with out enemy hi France, there could be no man, who wished well to the State, that would say. the House ought not to receive such a seetti ity from the Catholics. He trusted the House would be able in the Committee to come to sofne afrangetnent the least objectionable to the Catholics, which might be able to prevent foreign influence from having a dan gerous effect, through them, on the State in which they lived. Another security, which he thought ought to: be granted, was the Pito j and he did not know how that security was discordant with the Catholic religion. Indeed, in the negociations which were carried on between the Catholics and himself, the arrangement of the Veto was proposed rather by the Catholics to him, than by him to the Catholics. He was sure the Catholics wished so well to the State, that they would rather the Government should know an individual proposed to be appointed to fill any high situation in their Church, in order that it might ascertain whether he was not likely to become dan gerous from his political prejudices. For his own part, therefore, he could have no objection to going into the Committee, or to the Right Honourable Mover bringing in his Bill, founded on a general re solution of that Committee. As far as he understood the Bill of the. Right Honourable Mover (Mr. Grat tan) he thought it was one to which it would be unnecessary to make any fundamental alteration, because. it went to repeal all the disabilities under which the Catholics laboured : only demanding from them, that they should acknowledge ours as the esta blished Church of the country. He would go into the Committee with a sincere wish to seethe measure carried into edict ; but, in his opinion, that was not to be done at once, as it would be highly proper that the Protestant mind should be fully satisfied on the subject. ifr. ROSE, amidst violent clamour, and calls for Mr. Ponsonby, declared, that neither the eloquence of some Speakers nor the arguments of the Noble Lord had satisfied him that the House ought to go into the Committee. He would have risen, however, but for the purpose of expressing his belief that a change did take place in the mind of his late Right Hon. Friend ( Mr. Pitt), in opposition to the assertion of the Noble Lord ; had he been now alive he had no doubt that he would have opposed the present motion. Lord CASTLEREAGH explained; he had only said that no difference took place in Mr. Pitt's opi nion of the expediency of the measure itself, not of the expediency of agitating it. With respect to what woulit have been his opinion at present, he did not conceive the Right Hon. Gentleman was qualified to give any information on that point. Mr. MANNERS SUTTON objected to the snee ring way in which the petitions from the Protestaats had been treated. Going into a Committee, unless they went into a full deliberation, and came . to a practical decision, would be productive of more evil than benefits exciting hopes in the Catholics never to be realized, anti a ferment in the Protestant minds not readily to be allayed. He denied the justness of the charge of indecency against the Protestant Cler gy, for the part they had taken. Though they had a right to take part in any question, yet this was not a mere political question, becz use the very safeguards proposed were for the security of the Protestant Church, It was not for monopoly of power, but be. cause they feared this measure would affect the sta bility of their establishment, that they petitioned.— He was shocked at the misrepresentation of the Charge of the Bishop of Lincoln by a Worthy Baro net, who spoke of that Prelate as his respected friend. He hoped he had since read the pamphlet, and al tered his opinion, which would otherwise appear most extraordinary. As to Mr. Pitt's authority, whose decease, in such times as these he much . lamented, he had no new proposition to offer; but with common opportunities of information, he believed that Mr. Pitt was sincere in his object, guarding it with pro per securities, but that he did not act upon it, owing. to times and circumstances. He thought that if Mr. Pitt were living, he would not have agreed to go into the Committee, unless he knew what was the nature of the-measure to be proposed. Sir R. HERON, in explanation, re-read the para graph from the Prelate's pamphlet, which he had quoted on a former evening, and he left it to the House to determine who it was that had misrepre sented the Reverend Author. Another Hon. Mem ber (Mr. Peele) had also attributed to him gross ca lumpy for this quotation ; but he relied on the justice of the House. Mr. PEELE explained. In attributing gross ca lumny to the Hon. Baronet, be had not alluded to the quotation, but to expressions uttered by him, and which had been mach panegyrised, namely, that the petitions from the Clergy had come from those with mitres on their heads and in their heeds —( Loud cheers of Near, from the Opposition benches.)—Those expressions he had termed grossly calumnious ; (Chars continued.)—and from that opinion he did not .depart.__ Sir R. HERON explained as to what he had said respecting the Bishop of Lincoln, and read passages from the publication, to confirm the opinion he had expressed in a former stage of the debate. The Hon. F. ROBINSON explained. His objec tion was to the expressions relative to Clergymen with mitres on their heads, and mitres in their heads, which he conceived to be a groas calumny. Mr. PONSONBY animadverted on the critical nicety which had been evinced, and noticed an attack on a Prelate as respectable as the Bishop of Linco ln (the Bishop of Norwich), which had been nude from the other side. Mr. CROKER spoke to order, and said, that all reflexions had been disavowed by Mr. Peele.—( Mr. Crider himself was here called to Ord, r). Mr. PONSONBY proceeded. It was always his study to keep within the limits of order, as due to him self, and to the Speaker, and to the House. He ex tenuated the ardent conduct of the Catholics, who were goaded by the efforts of the press, employed against them, though he would not accuse the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Peek) of so directing them. The press in Ireland, h ,wever, as far as it was in favour of Government, was full of slander and vituperation of the Catholics. As to the Catholic principles 'being the same now as 150 years ago ; he knew not what security could be asked, which they did not offer. Security was demanded that the spiritual authority should not encroach upon the temporal concerns ; but the Catholics swore that no Pope, nor priest, nor fu. !sty 130faif1f4,taci, Of thigiit tieVi, any iedipatet power within these realms. Wee• I they eetieve'his oath or nit ? If not then the Cat'iolic w iselanger. ous from religion , and Monstrous from the infi Wire of his oath, not dittinguishing between tenth and falsehood. Was the Pope to use his power by r rising an army, and persuading the Catholics to Assist him ? or by combining withioreign pnwers, and Jeh tuching the minds of the King's saejects ? Was it to be by open' force, by conspiracy and cabal, Or by treason, or how ? Two efforts had been made to get secnrie ties. First, the Pete, which had not been (elite the -jured by the Catholics, and, therefore, might pet sibly be revived. S e co n dly, d ome s t i c nomiletion, which the Learned Gentleman (Sir William Scrate, with a tender care and jealous anxiety for the consistency of the Catholics thotight quite iereconci. 'table with their faith, and :erased disposed to con vince them, that they could not gratify the House on that subject. When any thing likely to be palatable was proposed, it was etatel to be against their teli gion ; and then securities were called for, which it was 'known to be impossible to give. Mr. P insonley here read part of the Catholic Prayer-book, on the subject of mental reservation and eqiiivocition, to shew the fallacy of the charges made Against the Ca tholics on those subj cts. He contrested the fabri cations against the Catholics, with those imputel to them. Fie did not think the diversity of opinions roe selecting Mr. l'ie's sentiments very complimentere to that Right Hon. Gentlemen, whe he believed. thought this measure wise and prudent. It was said the ques tion must not be forced • certainly not, but much good hid been done. oyth e repeated Jis.ussions; and be believed that the m ijority of the persons of educe., tions and property in this country were fist )usable to the examination of it by the wisdem of P aiiement, whose decision in its favour would give them great satisfaction. Had he lived at the Revolueoo, he should have voted f hr zanily strict en sett/lents, think , ing the Catholics et that time will icill!y to liberty ; though now we might to recollect, th it die fury of Puritanical I iws bed left them no refuge, but in the arms of the Crown. If restored to their former rights they never could look back to the period of that re storation, without recognizing it as the work of the popular branch of the Legislature—they must owe it to the Constitution. flow could they be dispoied to betray that which restored to them their liberties and privileges ? Now, Protestants aided them' in their petitions : if they manifested a disposiien contrary to Weeny, would that be the case Would not a Pro- testant majority be able to re-enact their disabilities ? Suppose not all that was asked, bet that something gracious were dcMc in a Committee, was it to be maintained that it would render the Catholics more discontented ? What authority had Gentlemen for saying so ? That they would apply to Parliament again was a matter he would not dispute. It was not in human nature that they should not do so, while the doors of Parliament were open, and they laboured under disqualifications. If in the Com mittee, Parliament shewed a conciliatory disposi. tion, they would confer as great a benefit On the empire as it had received for ages paste Often as the Catholics had importuned them, they had -never yet received this favour at their hands. It would of itself be a prodigious advance In the cause.... He hoped that all Who voted for the Conunittee would do so, in the same spirit expressed by the Noble Lord, namely, to find oat something satisfactory : he beseeched those who had other views, to vote against the Committee, as infinitely better, and more manly; not raising hopes, and then sinking them in cruel disappointment. One great object of a Com mittee was, to hear what' every Gentleman had to propose en this subject ; and it was the . only Pare liamentary mode of proceeding. As soon as the House should shew a sincere dispos , tion to grant to the Catholics all that could be &anted, consist. ently with the security of the State and established Church, then, he conceived, it would be the duty of the Catholics to give up for conciliation every thing .which they could fairly give up, consistently with their faith and their religion. He had told the No. ble Lord last year, in the case of America, that if she would not accept of the conciliatory measures offered by this country, he should support Ministers in the war, and he had kept his word. tie shoiddl uow assure him, that if the Ministers should fairly do all that was reasonable to conciliate the Catholics, and they should reject the boon, he would Support the Minister, even if that support should exclude him from power fur his life, and establish the Noble Lord (Lord Castlereagh) in it. He could make the same declaration for all his friends who sat about them. He well knew their honourable minds, and that they only valued power as a means of rendering service to the country. [ After Mr. PONSONBY had sat down, several Members rose, but the House loudly calling on Mre CAtextec, the other Gentlemen gave way te Mr. CANNING said, that being called t'ie manner he h.d been by the Ri g ht and Learned Gentleman (Sir William Sct rebuked by him for having continued so long he thought that it might appear necessary an explanation to the House on that poi should have thought that he rather owed logy to the House for now speaking, before heard the sentiments of many other Gentler were probably inclined to speak, than for so loryg to give his opinion. On many Of questrens which were agitated in that Hot. often doubtful on which side the but-risen of rested ; but on the present occasion, he thou; could be no such doubt. The hurthen of clearly rest on those who meant to content House should not redeem the pledge which given last year. In a case of such ;t reat im when we stood commiited to the Ca:holic , sures of conciliation, end to the Proteztaot rity, he would not say that it was impose . reasons might not have occurred to shew that the course they were about to adopt to be prejudizial ; but until such reasons were ced, the presumption must be, that tlet cot the House had last year resolved on by a g rity was the properone to pursue. Thinkillee motion arose out of, and might be considee of the resolution which tht, I Inuit had col year upon his motel'', he did not think the bete bound 'Ton the present occasion to ward any reesens to induce the House to , own act. He had waited for the objection, I Gentlemen, to avoid trespassing upon the is y t.) him.] led upon in: itinourable I Scott), and , long silent, ry to make point. He ' , el an apo t Fore he had lemen, who', or delAy ins ether great! Rise, it was the proof ought these Frr of must nd th.it are ch they 114 iniport.ince, Ics fur rues= its for sccia, tliar the House t wa; lik :y were prool.ll. f 'UT Ne which B rat 'lx the pit , ent 4:11.1,1 .nne to lid that he kid o bring f confirm its on! of other Howe with ..