Star. — London, England, 1813-05-25 00:00:00

~rrerttieless,'Confessed that he wits pleased with sain e o f t h e ptoposittons; and hag poiftted out several de fects, yet had left the CoMmittee hopeless, by pip pobing nothing: He hoped the Right Hon. Gentle-, tw o would assist theM in conducting the Bill thtough the Committee, even with the first clause as it now stoo d, for without that the remainder was wholly un important. the first proposition was' calculated to bring the Catholics and Protestants into collision in t h e P ar liament —to bring them into muttfal confe-I Tence —to inspire confidence and quell alarm $ and for these reasons bad his hearty support. It ap. esred, however, that the enemies to the Catholics res:rved their batteries to the very last, and perse vered in their errors And misrepresentations with un equalled teal. It was his disposition to think favour ably of the Catholics; he thought the people of England were ripe for the measure; and he hoped t h e people of Ireland would be conciliated by It.— (Heir, hear.) Sir JOHN NICHOLS Lose, anxious to impress on the minds of the Committee the probable effects of the present important measure. The Constitution of the country was wholly Protestant—the Church—the Crown with all its Councillors—the Houses of Par liament —the judicial system—the higher military branches were all exclusively Protestants. Now this Constitution had not received its character from a few hasty enactments called for on a moment of peril --the acts which laid its foundation and secured it, were the silent, continual, and necessary accumula tions of above a century framed by their predecessors for the preservation of protestantism. After the Re formation, the famous Corporation Act was passed, excluding Catholics from that branch of legislation ; SON afterwards another law was enacted, requiring all Military Officers to take the oath of supremacy ; and during the reign of the Second Charles it was found dangerous to permit Catholics to sit in Parlia ment, and they were excluded accordingly, for the better preservation of the King's person and Govern ment. The inclination of the succeeding Monarch to the Catholics rendered the Revolution necessary, and the Bill of Rights was the consequence, which excluded for ever Catholics from the Throne. The principle of the Constitution, therefore, had been sup ported and strengthened by many enactments ; this perfected system was the accumulated wisdom of successive Parliaments, and the silent growth of ages. The principle, with its strongest character, had been recognized in the union of Scotland and England, and under its influence the nation had enjoyed domes tic quiet for more than a century, and which was little interrupted by the rebellion in Ireland, where the Catholic spirit was attempted to be made subser vient to revolutionary views. The present laws were placed around them as securities, by the wisdom of their ancestors, and if they were to be removed, the legislation would be no longer Protestant—the Army and the Parliament would be changed, and ancesto rial wholly obliterated, the alteration of which only twenty years ago, none dared to have con templated. The bulwarks of civil and religious li berty were to be removed, not gradually as they were created, but all was to go at one " fell swoop," at a time when the Throne was not exercising its full peer, and the Government were divided. (Hear, hue hear.) He was afraid this was not the auspi. clots period for general conciliation—this was not ' the moment when the lion could repose with the lamb. Were there any assurances or any hopes that the Ca tholics would not act as a political body, or as a mi litary body, should any tempting opportunities hap penvas ? 1, c W a n a t s there w a o n u y l d c e set r t a i n azde ty th a at ca if tho ttl h 'h e r ir on in e favour of a Protestant ? His present Majesty had only one grandchild on whom the succession rested, for he knew not whether the Queen of Wirtemberg had any children. None, therefore, could predict, whether in the course of twenty years the crown would be on a British head, or on that of a foreigner. and the influence of the Catholic Members might be employed against the succession of a Protestant. It was always wisest to stand prepared for whatever events might happen. No person, ten years before the Reformation, could have predicted that event IA certainty ; no person, ten years previous to the Revolution, could be aware of the change of the Constitution ; and no person, ten years before the French Revolution, could anticipate the appearance or a savage and barbarous Republic, amid the ruins at the Monarchy. Against the ascendancy of the Catholics no clauses had been proposed ; he believed ely were loyal to the monarchy, and lovers of their e entry, but he was not altogether certain that they tould not prefer a Catholic Church and a Catholic So itreign. That circumstance pressed on his mind the eopriety of remaining in their present situation, and conceding no farther. He dreaded the introduc : on of Catholic Gentlemen into the high offices of he State, backed by four millions of people under rte dominion of a bigotted priesthood, when a Ca eelic Government might be sent as a punishment for Living neglected the warning of their ancestors. Mr. PONSONBY said the Bill was open to the light Honourable Gentleman (the Speaker) if lie keased to supply the defects which he had discovered 15 it, and he would be glad to see another Bill pre- p -red containing all those parts which had been p , inted out as proper to be conceded. If the Right }l4 )n•Gentleman refused to avail himself of the offex, he 4 .oukt be liable to as grave an accusation as he had pref erre d aga i nst t h ose w h o f rame d t h e measure . rhe Bill was ordered by the House to be brought in to remove civil and military disqualifications, and Those persons who prepared it bad never contempla ted the introduction of those clauses recommended by the Right Hon. Gentleman. They were desi tous of introdeeing a measu r e to relieve the Catho lics front grievances of which they had complained, by placing them on a footing of equality with their Protestant brethren ; and those Gentlemen who were se eager to defend the Church and State, would do :ell to consider, that by giving the Catholics power eey secured the whole. But those who opposed the Bill had alarmed themselves with a belief that the Catholics, when once admitted to Parliament would . quietly pro cure t h e b est s i tuat i ons o f t h e ki ng d om , 9d immediat e ly app l y t h emse l ves to un d erm i ne t h e Protestant Constitution; but how was it possible that 6 ve• ten, fifteen, or twenty Catholics could injure the Protestant inteiest in an assembly composed of sits hundred and fifty-eight Members ? How Has it pos. Bible that they could plot and contrive where there Ivas every certainty of immediate discovery—when the first motion they made contrary to sound cond.. tntiooal friinciptet Woul d ieveal their designs ? A • Catholic Could not seat spoke last, and tell hith in confidence that he had a measure td piopot6 prejudi= cial to the Proastant irit*rest, and conclude his com munication by desiring his concurrence and Wai it to be expecteil that the Hon. Gentlitnatt would listen to all that With a fav o urabl e ear—that he would abandon his ancient principles for the tvhis pet of a Catholic ? The Hon. Gentleman had de clared that it was difficult to prognostibite on Whose head the Crown would be plaCesl in twenty years ; indeed, it would be difficult to determine—neither could any one predict who would be Dean of the Arches in twenty yeaks—(A itibgh)—but he was cer tain of one circumstance at the end of ttbenty years, which was, that the Protestant religion would be flourishing immaculate, notwithstanding the admis sion of a few Catholics into the Parliament. to hold the language of fear was truly nonsensical, for the Protestants would never be seized with such an unnatural fit of generosity, so as to abandon their own rights to gratify a score of Catholics, even were the laud. so basely disposed as to ask it. If the first clause Was defeated, he did not care what became of the rest of the measure. The Test Act was Made chiefly for the purpose of expelling Lord Clifford from the Councils of Charles 11. and other enact ments were deviled prinCipally for State necessity. But suppose that they were not—that they were framed to repel teal danger—they must now shew the same necessity for their continuance which they did for their commencement. The state of things then and the state of things now bore no resemblance. What had recently happened between the Spanish people and the Pope's Nuncio, furnished an argu ment that no national Clergy were at present in the humoor or disposition to comply with the Papal au thority. The Clergy acted wisely—they disobeyed the Papal injunction, and communicated the whole to the Government ; which, if it furnished a proof of the presumptuous spirit of the Pope, furnished an equal proof of the good conduct of the Clergy and the people. But it was never the spirit of the priest hood of any religion to be moderate, if not repressed by the Laity. Wherever the people were wilting to be obedient, the priesthood were willing to rule, and the best regulator of that ambition was the temper of the people. He protected the present Bill because he conceited that its general principles were excel lent, though he did not perfectly concur with some of the minor clauses. It was impossible that any measure could give universal satisfaction, yet the present Bill conferred powers which would be thank fully and gratefully received, in a measure which ad mitted the Catholics to an honest participation cf power. He could not conceive that they could do less than rejoice and be glad. The Bill was calcu lated to give satisfaction to reasonable men—it was a measure that promised to bestow benefits public and private—it was the triumph of sound policy and liberality over prejudice, bigotry, and superstition. To unite the people of Ireland cordially with the people of England, and give general security to the Empire, were the intentions of the framers cf the Bill ; and he hesitated not to say, that so great, so benevolent, and so beneficial a measure had not been proposed since the Revolution—(Hear, hear.) The destruction of the first clause would only tend to make the Catholics more eager and more solicitous ; further demands would be instantly made, and he would be the foremost man to bring 11)rward a pro position to restore the clause which had been lost.— The Bill, without that, would not produce satisfac tion, and, in his opinion, ought not to produce satis faction. Sir J. C. HIPPESLEY was favourable to the pro position for Catholics sitting in Parliament, and, there fore favourable to the Bill now before the Committee —(Hear, hear)—hut he was not favourable to the proposition in the shape in which it was now before the Committee ; and, therefore he could not give it his support. (Loud Laughing.) Gentlemen might laugh, and accuse him of inconsistency ; but he should contend, that he was consistent ; he was fa vourable to giving the privilege asked for, but he thought previous to his doing so, security should be provided. At present the contrary was the fact, the House was called on to grant the franchise before any securities were provided ; and this was what he could not agree to. (Hear, hear.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER briefly opposed the admission of Roman Catholics into Parliament and other Civil and Polit;cal situa tions, without giving a sufficient security for the pre servation of the Constitution in Church and State. Mr. TIGHE vindicated the loyalty of his coun- i trymen, and their devotion to the British Empire.— Were this Bill calculated to overturn the Empire, as some had contended, he was sure that few of his countrymen would support it. Could the Irish re turn the whole of their hundred Members Catholics, and were it likely that these should undermine the Constitution, or prove hostile to the great interests of the Empire, he was sure they would not do it. He was sorry that the three great objects of the Bill had not ' been considered separately. The Petitions from Ire land asked no privilege that was inconsistent with the security of the Constitution, and the safety and inde pendence of the country. He thought to have teen, at this time' of day, sentiments and times more libe ral and enlightened than the arguments of some Gen tlemen would lead them to believe—(Hear, hear.) Mr. BAN KES opposed the clause allowing Catho lics to sit in Parliament. He was astonished that Gentlemen, who he was convinced were as much at. cached As he himself was to the Protestant Establish ment, should not feel, that if Catholics were allowed seats in Parliaments, the Protestant Establishment in Ireland must, in less than 25 years, be overthrown. His Right Hon. Friend acting so long as he had as a party-man, should have known the effect which the nice balancing of patties might produce, if this mea sure were carried. It ought also to be most seriously considered that (as every man who professes the true Catholic Religion, must believe every Church except his own to be schismatical and heretical), every true Catholic, when circumstances favoured him, would be desirous to establish" the Catholic Church over every other. If 100 Members were elected by Various interests out of this body, they would and must be joined by others in the House, from among the Protestant Dissenters, claiming entire conces i sion for all their different sects. It would be a ground of eternal jealousy, if they were to endeavour to in troduee any thing in sill Constitution whig . ll might be eceeicheg to tiieir religiotis tenets, eithotigh neer. ding to their ideas of serving the State. The House ought to topsider, that what was granted to the Ca tholic! in 179 %vat considered by - those who granted It a 3 a final adustMent. Novr i si that had not been the cases he a dvised theth to consider that what they might think they were giving as a concession, when once given, could hot be recalled, even .if it should be ,abused, and demanded as a right. Lord CASTLEREAGH had already stated his general impiession! on the leading view! embraced by the Bill, therefore he would not trouble the Commit tee on the general question, but would confine him self as closely as possible td the clause respecting the admission of Members into that House. He concur red with the Right Honourable Gentleman (the Speaker) in opinion that the other clauses were of less importance thin that onee-efor it contained the essence, and for Med the leading feature of the Bill.— If they failed in carrying that clause, he thought they would fail to carry what he considered to be of the most salutary tendency in the whole measure.— ( Hear, hear.) He telt it to be the essential feature of the whole Bill. To reject it would be to say that the House never would be prepared to give to the Cabo lies any thing like an appearance either in the State or in the Government ; arid, to say that they were ready to give them state appearance, he deemed to be the essential and main feature of the Bill. The state of the Roman Catholic religion—the situation of the head of its Church, werecircumstancesthat shewed the necessity of making arrangements to protect the Protestant establishments ; but he did not think that they afforded such strong grounds against the mea sure as the expediency of it adduced argument in its support. He firmly believed that there was that spe cies of restraint on them, arising out of the expediency of it at the present moment, that they were called upon to enact scene substantial constitutional measure for the relief of the Catholics. The policy of the measure might be called into doubt by some extetnal pr , iceedings ; but by admitting the Catholics within their own pale, they gave them a pledge of the sin cerity of the wish to become friends, and they thereby armed them against all foreign and domes tic danger. This would be establishing a confidence that would be useful to the State and to the Country. The Bill proceeded on the principle of promoting mutual confidence, and thus would they have a shield which in times of danger would protect both Pro testant and Catholic. He would meet the Catholic, and would pursue what would promote their common interests. He would shew that he was prepared to act with them, and that would produce what was wanted—mutual cenfidence ; and he would not he deterred by any hypochondriacal views of the Coesti. union. But it was said, this would not be a final measure—the Catholics wnu!ti still have something to propose. Would it not be strange to say, that any thing that was done by Parliament was final ? indeed, would it not be a great tax on human as isdem to say nny thing of the kind ? No question could he billy said to be final—to be set at rest for eve?. But why should that idea alarm them—the idea that tee pre sent measure would not set the question at rest, if they felt in their own minds that they were strong enough to embatk with the Catholic? If they did co, and treated them as friends, he felt no doubt as to the ultimate success of the measure in promoting the security and peace of the empire. With respect to minor questions, on his conscience he believed that they would be of easy regulation when once a mutual confidence was established between the Protestant and Catholic. Let them be treated as friends, and he solemnly believed that they would not be found to throw much obstruction in the way of a complete arrangement. The House must feel themselves strong enough to act on such a principle—to emeerk with the Catholic without any vein and groundless fears, and wisdom called on them so to act—to make the Catholic a friend, v. hich only creed be done by esta blishing a mutual confidence. The proceedings of the Irish Catholics in 1793 had been referred to ; hut that measure had sown the seeds of dissention, by promoting the annual discussions of questions relative to the Catholics. This was the effect of those pro ceedings by degrees—step by step : they occasioned perpetual discussion and perpetual anxiety. But it they were to view the great question with statesmen like minds, instead of wasting it by detail, they would put an end to these annual struggles by esta blishing some regulations at once that might be ex. pected to meet the whole case. The power of Po pery, as it had evinced itself in other countries, had been cited against the present measure; but instead of making against it, he thought it was in tavour of it, and that it made the strongest possible appeal to the wisdom of Parliament, by calling on them not to lose the opportunity of protecting themselves. It they made the Catholic their friend, and armed him in the common cause, they made the mote effectual effort to exclude the enemy. They now had the oppor tunity of doing this, and they had arrived at that state when they were not open to the insinuations of those who were for ever calling on them to shew the secu rities that were to be given, as well as the arrange ments that were to be made. Before, they had never known what they were discussing, but now they had a clear distinct measure before them. They had at least something to proceed on • and it was gratify. ing to hear that the Right Hon. Gentleman (the Speaker) had expressed his approbation el* the gene ral system of regulations introduced into the Bill. Approving of the general system, as that Right Ho nourable Gentleman did, it. was only to be lamented that he did not carry his approbation to the highest point. (Hear, hear.) The first point in the Bill was the only material one, as he understood, to which the Right Hon. Gentleman objected. As to what had been said about certain religious societies, he agreed in opinion with the Right Hon. Gentleman that they ought to be noticed; and he was not inclined to differ from hint respecting regulations of the Clergy in Ire land—but he did not want to entangle these questions with the one before the Committees He had no such anxiety, for he was sure, if they succeeded in esta blishing an amicable interchange between the Catho lics and the Protestants, that there would not be found much difficulty to bring about necessary and useful regulations. (Hear, hear.) If he understood the principle on which an Honourable Member oppo site (Mr. Bankes) had proceeded, and he thought he did understand him, it was, that all alteration or an innovation on the laws as they now stood, was a violation of the Constitution. But he would put it to the House whether such a principle could a idea Open at a thoment iike the Oresent $ indeed, could that Honourable Member say, looking at the state of public opinion, of the progress which this cadre had made in the public mind; that the se. curity of the, Empire would fie promoted by *mut gating and acting upon a principle of permanent ex elusion of the Catholics from political state and power ?—(Near,.hear.)—With hespect to tvhat had fallen from his Honourable Friend (Mr. Bankes), he could not agree with him in the views which he had taken ; but he was surprised to find that hit Honoura ble Ffiend considered it his duty to give an unrelent. inF opposition to the Bill. The impression upon his mind was, that his Honourable Friend was not jealous of the principle of the measure so much as apprehen. sive whether the Catholics would consent to of that House should impose such securities, as would protect the Consitution from all possible danger. It appeared to him that there had been too much of a disposition to look to these securities when they appeared to be difficult, and now that specific arrangementi lot the put.. pose had been proposed, to overlook the securities and refer the difficulty to the measure itself.—(lfeur, hear.) Another point which had been much insisted on was; that if the Catholics should but take an oath of supre; macy, then all difficulties would be removed. Thug oath, he was opinion, they might safely take in the sense in which it ought to be taken : but if they con sciously believed that they could not consistently take it, their refusal ought to be regarded as highly cre ditable to their moral character. Though they de. clined to take the oath of supremacy, they were ready to take that which denied that the Pope had any power in temporals. This would remove every dd.; ticulty, if there had not been so many mixed cases in which it was desirable to provide against any possible inroad of the power of the Pope. The Bill, however, contained ample provision against these mixed easel * by means of the Commissioners to bejippointed to carry its enactments into execution. But then it might be said that still some Icop-hole would remain, and undoubtedly it would be impossible by any act of legislation to guard against every possible evasiotia Was the principle of exclusion that which was to se. cure the State against the foreign danger Should they not rather if they found themselves strong ehough on to do so, admit the Catholics into th e possessi of the privileges of the Constitution ? By granting to them the rights proposed to be yielded by the Bill, they would inspire them e ith caution to secure what they had at , tained rafter than enterprise to seek after further con cessions. He agreed that it was in the nature of religious sects to have a peculiar feeling s but if he thought that the Catholics, uniting with other dis senters, would direct that feeling against the State* he should not think of concession. 1.1 deseolic states, there may be a perfect freedom and independence of Sects, but in a mixed Government Ike that of Great Britain, there must be a religion tif the State -which religion was in this - country Protestant-ereqeiring not only that the king should he Protestant, bundle: the Government and the Legislature should be prin. c'psily Protestant. In his conscience he believed that the measure would nut aggravate power within o the walls of that House, as the Protestant Gentle. men returned upon that interest, were disposed to go further than even Catholic Members would go. He called upon the House, therefore,, by entertaining the measure, to save the Representatives of Ireland the misery of witnessing the continuAnce of that dis• quietude which the present state of things was calcu. laced to keep alive. He above all deprecated the idea of making the subject of concession an annual question, by which the House should dole out its ' bounty to the Catholics. He approved of the Bill belore the Committee, and the support he should give it was not the result of sudden conviction, but of the reflection of a length of years. Though he was aware that in this he differed from some of those friends with whom he had the happiness to concur and to act upon other questions of national policy, he was persuaded that he should be unworthy of that favour with which he was honoured by them in ge. neral, if he had not honestly stated his sentiments on this occasion. —(Hear, hear). Mr. YOlt KE observed, that if he could consider it, with his Noble Friend who had just sat down, to be consistent with the steady policy of the Protestant Government of this country, to pass such a Bill as that under consideiation—if he could consider it car. culated, as had been represented by his Noble Friend, to allay the animosities and extinguish the dissentions which had prevailed on this, he should give his vote for the measure. But in place of allaying these ani. muskies, if this Bill were to pass, it would bring the Catholics only in contact with themselves. He con. ceived it to be the steady policy of that House to ad. here to the laws and institutions of their ancestors. This country had been well governed for many years, and had attained to as high a pitch of prosperity as any nation ever possessed, under its Protestant Go. vernment. It would go on still in the same pros. perous way, if they were to keep the Catholics out of the Government : he could, therefore, not con sent to the passing of this Bill. \Via) respect to the particular clause under consideration, his Right Hon. Friends knew, that when Lord Grey had brought forward his measure, he had never agreed in their view s of it. He had always been one of those who thought that concessions should be made to the Ca. tholics.—(Hear, hear.)—He always thought that the anomalous distinction between the two countries, as to the rank attainable by Catholics in the army, ought to be (bite away. The present question was, wht• ther they would admit Roman Catholics to the Go. vernment of the State? The Bill, on the face of it, admitted the danger of foreign influence—admitted the influence of the Roman Catholic priests, and the necessity of securities. If he understood the argument of its supporters right, it was, that the provisions of the Bill would establish the necessary securities. Now what security did they hold out? In his opinion, by passing the Bill, they would give up the only secu rity they had—that cf keeping the Roman Catholics out.—(Hear, hear, hear.)—The Catholics would not swallow the oath of supremacy ; but if the House should give that up, they would surrender their only. security. Where was the argument, or sophistry rather, that could persuade them, in a Government and Legislature essentially Protestant, to admit the Roman Catholics ? Would the Statesmen who, in the reigns of Charles I I. and James 11. watched over the interests of this Protestant State, have done so They had declared that the Government and the Par. liament should be essentially Protestant. By depart sing from that principle they wdbld, most certainly,