Star. — London, England, 1820-05-16 00:00:00

t, 11 1111 in hair. When he returned he was not able to at tend ; he was as much a non-entity as the dope porters of 'that House—(Hear, hear). If then the Chief Baron could be spared for three years, why not spare a Junior Baron altogether ?—(lfenr, hear).— He did not advocate this as a party question, or for - -the purpose of perplexing the Ministry. The present were times when no man who would consult the welfare ref his country would stand up against any thing which was truly venerable in its institutions. He had no!earthly motive in coming forward than one which he thought perfectly correct, when he saw an appointment made injurious to the Courts of Jus tice in Scotland, and likely to make a generally un favourable impression. Never was a time when it was more necessary to uphold the character of the Courts of Justice than at present ; and he would add, that never vyas a time when a i:erson inspecting those Courts could give them greater praise than for the last few weeks—(Hear, hear). They spewed a sig nal example of persevering patience in investi gating, _ nnea and of perfect irtiality in deciding—(Cheering, and Hear, hear). The Noble Lord proceeded to re mark, that the Chnimissioners all concurred in the Report to which he so often referred, with the excep tion of the Commissioner whose name was -at its head—he meant Sir Bay Campbell; and he added, that the opinion of that Commissioner deserved less weight than any one of the others. The individual appointed tb the situation of fifth Baron was Sir Pa trick Murray, whom the!.Noble* Lord described to have been recommended to that ofsceless by his pro fessional acquirements than by hispOlitical exertions. One way, indeed, Sir Patrick Aurrak was well known, and that was, as a troublesome candidate for the County of Perth. Indeed, no person could take a better way to recommend himself to Government,. than to present himself as a candidate at an elec. • Lion against the candidate who stood on the,. popular • interest, and no man in the House knew this better than tiro L.srd Registrar—( Hear, hear! /recta laugh). The Noble Lord then compared the authority of the Lord Advocate, for it was a question of authority, with that of the Commissioners, whom he highly praised, with the exception of Sir hay Campbell: in deed, a recommendation for the reduction of unne cessary offices would come from Sir Ilay with pecu liar weight, because he might justly add, " quorum pars magna . juitr, —(Hear, hear! and air:ugh). With regard to the appointment of Sir Patrick Murray, it was well known to have been a long time promised before it took place. He came now to the ',ape:. which was produced by the Learned Lord opposite, and which was supposed to contain his justification. But that document, if it proved anything, proved that three Barons, not five, would be sufficient for the Exchequer; for his argument went upon the ground that the number should not be equal, because if equal, they might never decide. Now, the number of three would conduce to that end as well as five - (Hear, hear). In England, too, it would be recollec ted that the decisions in the Court of Exchequer were all made by four Barons—(Harr, hear). — He should now proceed to shew what extraordinary recommendations could emanate from persons of the -highest authority. The Commissioners had given it as their opinion that the office of one of the Clerks of l Session was inexpedient, and that the principal Clerk' was sufficient to do the duty. Now, would the House believe it when he told them; that, although there was no more business in the Court than one Clerk was able to perform, Sir Walter Scott had been ap pointed a Clerk of that Court ?—( Hear, hear). A Gentleman was appointed to an office, no part of the duties of which it was to be expected that he could ever fulfil—a Gentleman whose time, as every body knew, was Ed much occupied in other respects. To burthen the country with unnecessary expenses of (his kind was an act which ought to be scouted from the Orkneys to the Land's End ; it was treating with contempt the opinions of those persons who had been appointed by Parliament for the purpose of enquiring into, with a view to the correction of, public abuses. While persons in authority talked of retrenchment 2nd economy, they seemed determined never to touch any Gy which their own patronage was likely to be affected— (Hear, hear). Sir Walter Scott was em ployed in very different pursuits from those of the business of a Court of Justice ; he was writing more than any man could read ; and while his time was so occupied, how could he perform the duties of a Public Officer? He was sure that many of the ap pointments to which he alluded we re ma d e unknown -• to the Ministers ; themselves and he did Dot believe that the Ministers would have made such appoint ments. There was no Court which abounded with so much systematic abuse as the Court of Exchequer in Scotland. The Remembrancer of that Court acted by a Deputy, he r.liarged whatever he might consider a suitable remuneration for his trouble, and there was no controul over his charges. Whatever vote the House might come to on this question, would not be a matter of any consequence to himself; but this he was certain of, that if the vote should be hi fa vour of the transactions to Which he alluded, they would not carry conviction to the Public—who would still continue to entertain the same opibion of them that he himself did : and the time might not be far distant when such a vote would contribute to increase that ferment that already unfortunately pre v,kiled in the County of Lanai k ; when it would even le ill the mouths of those whose duty it was to re press the disturbers of the public peace in that part of the kingdom. How could be himself go forth as a De.pwy Lieutenant to repress them, without feeling some compunction with regard to these transactions? —(Hear, hear). Some of the persons engaged in t!lost: tumultuous proceedings we: e a disgi ace to their co';r.try ; bat would not their numbers be multiplied vlien they heard that the House of Commons sanc tioned such transnctious as those in question ? (Jfear, hear). The House had passed laws for the suppression of Public Meetings ; but if the People were not allowed to express their opinions openly, they would give vent to their feelings in some other way. He concluded with moving— That this House do agree with the Report of the Commis si,m2rs appointed to inquire into the Duties, Salaries, and F.mo- Lint:2'ns of Courts of Justice in Scotland, as far as relates tis the C:utt of Fachequer, concerning which the Report declares five Barons to he more than necessary. and that the business enuld be done equally well with four, u in England, without materi- ativ adding to the duties of the remaining officers." —(Te Noble Lord teas loudly cheered as he sat down). The LORD ADVOCATE declared that 'lli con scientious opinion was the very reverse of that con tained in the Report. He himself, and all whom he had consulted on the subject, concurred in opinion, that an institution which the experience of more than a century had proved to be useful, ought not to be `hastily altered. Therefore, if any alteration were to take place, it should require long and mature deli beration, before the same were attempted. With regard to the institution of the Jury Court of Scot land, it was first taken as an experiment. All cases, at first, were to go to the Court of Session, before they came into that Court ; and a prejudice had long prevailed against the Court. An Act was passed, however, which declared that the cases should first come bet Ore the Jury Court, a great deal of business was thrown into it, and the Judges in that Court were necessary, for they had a great deal of busi ness to do in the Court of Exchequer and the Court of Session. As to the Commissioners, so often spoken of by the Noble Lord, he declared that they had no power or right to make the report which they did. With respect to the fourth Baron of the I Exchequer, the appointment of that officer was com pletely justifiable. The Officer did uniformly for years, attend as King's Remembrancer of the Ex chequer in Scotland. He alluded.to Sir P. Murray ; and no man could be better qualified to fill the of fice of a Baron. He had been appointed because he was perfectly well acquainted with the practice of the Court. The same thing could be said of the ap pointment of Mr. Baron Parrott. By the appoint ment of the first a considerable saving accrual to the . Public, because the office of King's Itemem brancer ceased on his retiring from it. As to the question, whether this office ought to he tilled up? he declared there was no foundation for asserting that it was unnecessary. At the time of the union with Scotland, it was declared that there should be a Court of Exchequer in Scotland, and th . tt it should not consist of less than' five m em b ers; and it was thought that the business of the 'Court could not be carried on with less... Such had been th - a practice for upwards of a hundred years in Scotland, where the prejudices were as much in. favour of five, as the prejudices in England were in favour of four. It was necessary that the Court should consist partly of English and partly of Scotch lawyers, because there were many points which it required English lawyers to determine. It was held that three Judges were necessary from the Scotch Bar; for the purpose of determining numerous cases respecting Scotland; this business had greatly multiplied, and he was sure the business could not be conveniently done with a less numbir. It was azreat mistake to say that the chief business was done by the Rememlantncer. There were various cases relative to the lands of the Crown, which required the strictest attention of the Judges of this Court. No charter could pass without their decision, and there were various other cases of a si milar kind which required their close attention. In answer to all this, there was nothing but a Report of some Parliamentary Commissioners, who stated that one of the Barons might be dispensed with. But he contended that these Commissioners exceeded their powers, and went oat of their way when they re ported on the constitution of this Court. Their duty was to inquire into the emoluments of Officers and Ministers of Justice. He wished to knew in what instance the Judges of Scotland could be called Mi nisters of Justice ?—( Hear, hear).—They might, in one sense of the word, be called so; but in theavords of the Act appointing the Commissioners, it was not meant that the Judges should come under that de nomination : for if the Judges were to be subject to their inquiry, they would have been named first. The only object of the Commission was, to inquire into fees of officers, clerks, &c. and to the remedy of abuses that might be practised in the receipt of fees, salaries,- and emoluments, on the part of the under officers of the Court. The Commissioners, therefore, had no power to make any report respect ing the Judges. On this occasion, he could not avoid expi easing some censur e at the manner in which the Noble Lord had brought forward the name of a venerable and respectable Judge, whose grey hairs might have been saved from the severe reflections of the Noble Lord—( Herethere teas a loud cry of Or aer," and " Chair"). The SPEAKER observed, that it was not consistent with order to enter into observations of this kind. The Learned Lord said, he had no intention to give any offence, and he then proceeded to argue against the power exercised by the Commissioners, with regard to the Judges of Scotland. He then-al luded to the appointment of Sir Samuel Shepherd to the office of Chief Baron of Scotland, and declared that the people of that country felt grateful to the English Government for sending a Gentlemaeof his excellent character, his amiable manners, and great legal knowledge, to preside in their Court. And, unless it should be supposed that there was something infectious in the air of Scotland—(A laugh)—it was. incredible to conceive that that Learned and respect able person would give an opinion which he did not feel to be fair and impartial, respecting the constitu tion of the Court where he presided. His opinion was in favour of the Court as it was now constituted ; and with such an opinion before the House, he trusted they would not attend to the unauthorized report of a set of Commissioners. He now wished to inform the House, that instructions had been given to him to prepare several Acts, which he was to submit to the House, for the regulation of the Courts in Scot land. In the month of December last, he gave no tice of his intention to bring forward these Bills ; but before he did that, it would have been necessary to vote the salaries of the different Officers in a Com- mittee of Supply; and his intended measures were delayed on account of the House having been occu pied in preparing measures for the defence of the country, and since then he had been unavoidably absent from the House. He had, however, in the interval, taken the trouble to draw out the heads ofl the Bis he intended to offer to the House, had them 'printed, and submitted to the Law Authorities and to the whole of the Bar in Scotland. They met the approbation of all those parties ; and he now gave no tice, that in a few days lie would move for leave to bring them in. Therefore, nothing should be left iindone which might be considered necessary for the constitution of the Scotch Courts, the riumber of _ _ Judges in which Parliament might fix as it pleased. With respect to the assertion that the late Baron Campbell had not attendcd.the Court for three years, that was not the fact. He was only absent one year; and when he resided at Bath, altough al an estate of health, *he used to go to Scotland during the Terms to attend his duty. • Lord ARCIIIBILD HAMILTON in explana tion, said that he had not applied his argument ad . houtinem. He only meant to say, that if one of the Barons was absent fur a year, and that the business '‘)f the Court suffered no injury thereby, it was pro•. table that the three others, by whom the business in the meantime was carried on, might be sufficient for all the duties of the Court. 'The LORD ADVOCATE observed, that illness' was a matter of accident, which was liable to occur at ail times. It was found that individuals would be in all eases—(.4 laugh). Sir JOHN NEWPORT took a review of the pro ceedings connected with the institution of the Com mission, and the final abandonment of their recom mendation by the Government, and contended that the House should look upon the conduct of Ministers with great distrust. He appealed to a precedent in the case of Ireland, in answer to the objection, that the Commissioners, by inquiring into the duties, the fees, and salaries of officers in the Court, had ex ceeded the authority of their commission. He next adverted to the Commission appointed to inquire into abuses in the offices of Masters in Chancery, and endeavoured to shew, from the conduct of Ministers in that transaction, that he was warranted in calling 1 upon the House to exercise suspicions upon the con- I duct of Ministers ; for, after the Commission was ap pointed, against the consent of Ministers, they, in order to defeat its object, appointed two Masters in Chancery to the Commission, and the consequence was, that they left many important abuses unnoticed. It was urged, that the present Commissioners stated no grounds for the conclusion which they promul gated. But had they not stated the nature of the duties of the office—the number of cases heard in Court—the number of motions on an average for the last three years—the extent of the sittings (which, by the bye, included about eighty-five days in all, without deducting Sundays and Mondays, on which days they did not sit)? Such were the grounds of the Commissioners' opinions. The Learned Lord, indeed, could not get rid of the inveterate prejudice of having five, • instead of four Judges. He seemed to think even that this number was made necessary by the Act of •Union, which said, that the Judges should not exceed five, without remembering that the existence of any number under five was not irre concileable_ to the terms of the Act. But where there was such a conflict of opinion as between the Judges on one side, and the Commissioners on the other, would it nct have been decent of Ministers to wait for the judgment of Parliament before they acted upon either opinion? Such treatment of a Report of Commissioners was enough to discourage any man employed in such a situation from the dis charge of his duty. About two years ago, he Fad moved for a reference of the Reports of the Commis sioners of Inquiry to a Select Committee of that House, and he was met by the statement, that as soon as any act was done contrary to the recommen dations of the Commissioners, it would be quite time enough to have the inquiry go forward. Here then was the recommendation departed from, and here was the case for inquiry. It appeared that Ministers were willing to postpone the appointment till the Commission was appointed ; but as soon as they as certained that the Commissioners proposed an alter ation in the constitution of the Court, then they made the appointment. The :light Honourable Ba ronet then proceeded to shew, from the Report itself, that the business of the Court, instead of being in creased, was either stationary or diminished. Lord CASTLEREAGH said, he should shortly state to the House the grounds upon which he gave his vote that night. He thought the House could not be justified in agreeing to the motion of the Noble Lord, founded as it was upon the opinion of the Commissioners, which was not attempted to be sup ported by any inquiry, or evidence- of the grounds upon which they formed it. He (Lord Castlereagh) was far from complaining of the sentiments which, the Right Hon. Baronet had expressed, namely, that the House should support with jealousy its own Com mission. From what had fallen in the course of the debate, he was assured the House would permit him to say a few words in reply to some reflections made against his Majesty's Government, IT the Right Hon. Baronet supposed that Ministers entertained any other notion in the present times than that of diminishing the expenditure, reforming abuses, and removing un necessary burdens, he supposed the existence of mo tives which Ministers disclaimed. The Right Hon. (gentleman said, that Ministers only looked to the suppoi t of the patronage of the Crown, and that to that they were willing to sacrifice every principle of economy. It was usual with some of the Gentlemen opposite, especially .at the period of a new Parlia ment, not only to repeat remarks of this description, but also to inculcate the notion, that all the purity and disinterestedness in the House resided at their side of the House. He (Lord Castlereagh) hoped that bolt sides of the House were possessed of parity enough to discharge from their minds whatever mo tives did not tend to the tranquillity and improve ment of the country. But he would repeat, that the imputation of bad motives upon his Majesty's Minis ters was improper, and history would furnish in stances in which those who charged were more often actuated by bad motives than those whom they charged. With respect to the immediate subject before the House, he should say, that generally speaking, Parliament should, as much as possible, support the acts and recommendations of its Com _ • Without blaming the Commissioners for having extended their inquiries to various parts of the constitution of the Court, he had no doubt that if the Commissioners had been expressly ap pointed for the purpose of inquiring into Fees, Sala ries, and Duties, the persons who formed the present Commission would not have been appointed.-- It was not his intention then to examine the opinions or the grounds of opinions of the Commissioners, or those who opposed them, but -lie entertained no doubt that it was in his power to shew that the weight of evidence was in favour of the appoint ment of a fifth Baron. With respect to the present question, it was his intention to move upon it the previous question. At the same time, if the Noble ',Ord, feeling that his case was strong, was willinj to propose hereafter a course of inquiry, to take evi dence upon the different circumstances which in duced the Comisussiotwu t final their opinion, he (Lord Castlereagh) tvould have no abjection to' AC• cede to it—(Loud cheers from Me Opposuion Benches). —lt was worthy of remark too, that the Commis sioners had not peremptorily declared their opinions, but that they expressed them with great caution and doubt. (Here the Noble Lord read a passage from the Report). Ile protested againit the (Onion, that because a Court might proceed for a certain interval in the absence of one of its authorities, that should be a reason for dispensing for ever with the autho rity who had been thus only temporarily absent.— But were there not many political offices, the duties of which proceeded as usual in the occasional ab sence of one of its functionaries ? It was well known that one of the most brilliant ornaments of the legal rrotession, Lord Mansfield, was subject to frequent intervals of indisposition, which rendered his ab sence unavoidable. Bat who would attempt to say, that because the business of the Court was curried on without his attendance, therefore the offih of Chief Jusice ought to be removed. He did not mean to give an opinion upon the subject himself, and therefore it was that he felt inclined to yreld t.. the opinion of the Judges, in preference to the jud;- ment of the four Commissioners, who came to flit.: conclusion in opposition to the sense of the oniy Judge amongst them.—(Hear, hear).—lt had heel said that the Court of Exchequer in Scotland should be placed upon the same footing as that England. He denied this propotition, because there was no analogy between their respective duties— (Hear, hehr).—(Here the Noble Lord deailed tiv various duties of each, with a view to shew that the Court in Scotland had more extensive jur isdiction). —Of all the economies most abhorrent to the senti ments of the l'ublic, economy exercised towards the Members of the Bench was the worst. The question here was not tt hether I:2000 shall b, given out of the public money, but whether the administration of justice in Scotland should be placed on a footing the most favourable to the security of the i subject ?—. If, however, tllb Noble Lord had confidence in the justice of his propositions, let him move for a Com mittee. He (Lord Castlereagh) was not prepared to say what he should do w ilia regard to the appoint ment that had taken place—(l oud cheeriagfrons Me opposition Benches). It was the It writ of the Gentle men opposite to swell their voices louder in propor tion to the weakness of their :twine:as. In truth. they were never so happy as w hensthey had some LI 000 or another to animadvert ui.on. He denied the imputation that Ministers did nut feel as deeply as any in that House for the distresses of Scotland.— The Scotch poor were too enlightened to excite any thing but sympathy for their miseries. He then pro ceeded to shew that it was usual, in cases of this description, to have the Report of the Commission referred to the authorities belonging to the Court, who gave effect to it by their decrees, and at their discretion. This was the course now followed, and was a much better course than to hang up the Court in a new and fantastical state, with four Judges instead of five. 'fire Noble Lord then moved, as an Amend ment, the previous question. Mr. TIEPNEY began by noticing the complaint of the Noble Lord, that imputations had been urged against Ministers of their disinclination to retrench ment. The Noble Lord had said that injustice had been done to Ministers by some Members not be lieving their professions of a determination to eco nomy. "So help me Gon," said the Ri&ht Hon. Gentleman, " I do not believe their prottassions; nor do I think that any real economy is ever to be ex pected from them." He was of opinion that all their attention was directed to the maintaining of their pa tronage, and that they went now reduced to that situa tion, that they could not afford to lose the third of a fifth Baron of the Exchequer ! (A laugh). When a pro position was made for the reduction of any useless office, the reply was, " No, it breaks in on the establishment." The Noble Lord and the Learned Lord beside him differed materially in their views upon this subject. The latter came down, and, like a good Scotchman, maintained that five was the good old Scotch num ber, that he would have five Judges, and wanted ro inquiry. The Noble Lord, however, was willing to grant inquiry. Why was not this inquiry ranted before? Who would think of proposing an inquiry after the harm was done ? He (Mr. Tierney) con tended, that the Commissioners had peremptorily declared their opinions to be against the appointment of a fifth Baron ; and read an extract from the Re port, in which he said that peremptory opinion was expressed. It was whimsical enough, however, that the supporter of the number five, should be the per son to make a reference from the opinion of five to the authority of four. It might be true that an Act of Anne appointed five Barons; but was no regard to be paid to the difference of times and circumstances, which might make the appointment of those Judges necessary in one case, and useless in another?— Notwithstanding the rhetoric of the Noble Lord, he (Mr. Tierney) could not but think the appointment a very extraordinary one. Whatever might be the merits and various qualifications of Mr. Adams cr Sir P. Murray (one of whom was, however better capable of filling the situation than the othei), be must be allowed to designate the transaction by a term, which, although opprobrious, was established Parliamentary language, and call it a plain, down 'right, unequivocal job ! ( Hear, hear, and laughter). H the slightest attention was to he paid by Ministers to economy or decorum, the Public had a right to expect, in this instance at least, a real reduction.— As to the inquiggenupon which the Noble Lord laid so much stress, it was not called fur ; enough was already known upon the subject. The whole argu ment of the Noble Lord was indeed manly, as it went to say, that the question must be pissed by, or the Government would find itself greatly embar rassed; but one point was worthy of observation. —The Noble Lord had spoken of the inconvenience likely to arise from the inequality of votes in a divi sion of the Court in case the number of Barons was four, which inconvenience could not take place under the preser.t arrangement. But surely the number which answered for the business of the Exchequer in England, might satisfy Scotland. Where were the very important questions ever mooted in the Scotch Exchequer? Mare numerous and more com plicated questions were disposed of in the Erg:ish Court of Exchequer, yet four Barons were sufficient here. The latter was also a Court of Equity and a Court of Common Law. But if there did happen to arise a question iu the Scotch Exchequer which di vided the four Barons, nothing cottld be more tally I