Star. — London, England, 1830-03-27 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. the place In question ; and be (Mr. Protheroe) hoped it would be made, as the idea of having a fountain there was given over, and there was ample space. lie wished to sec a carriage way from the terrace. After a few words from Mr. BYSO, the report was referred back to the committee. HOUSE OF LORDS—FRIDAY. The private Bills on the table were advanced one stage, some be ing read a third time and mooed. others a second time. RUBBLE COMPANIES. 'the Earl of ROSSIXN gave notice that Monday next he should rubmit a remelt' to the house, to amend the standing order No. 310. which had been proposed by a noh'e lord (the Earl of Lauderdale) it a for•usr ~ l '. ion c parliament, and with a view of preventing the icr.o.it:..t‘ a !,iitilde companies. lit the exceptions to the operation at that ens, r. the wards " quays, landing-places, and markets," had CHINA TRADE. been n.,»inetl. The motion of the noble earl, it is understood, has refereeee to thin o.:iission. Mr LITTLETON had three petitions to present praying for Sir .e. GRANT and *there brought up a copy of the evidence taken free trade with China. The first was front the Chamber of Com i.) the committee of the House of Commons on the East Retford dis. nterce of the manufacturers of the Staffordshire potteries. The be. franehirietneet bill. The hon. bare with other members, likewise cond from the manufacturers of Burslem, in the same county ; and eireterst up a copy of the report of the select committee appointed by the third from the inhebitants of Bilston, a town containing two she Heuer of Commone, to take into consideration t he 18th report hundred thousand inhabitants engaged in the iron and ;society rat' the eom:nissioneni fur inquiring into the judicial proceedings in tiedes.—The petitions were severally read, and ordered to be 'relate!. together with the depositions of Sir Jonah Barrington, printed. .Intige of t he Admiralty Court, and other papers communicated by Tile Marquis of BLANDFORD presented a pctition from the him to them. agriculturists of Dalton (we believe) in the county of Suffolk, corm Sir 1. (Jamie and others likewise brought up the indemnity pleining of &Arms, amid praying a reduction of taxation.—Ordered bill ' to be printed. herd AI.THOMP, Lord STANLEY, 10141 WILLIAM POWLETT, Mr. DUtiDA LE, in presenting a petition from Alcesta. took and other members of the Commons, brought up three private the opportunity of explaining a misrepresentation which had ap (.nad) bills. pared in the papers!, in tegatd to what fell front him on the pre- These bills were severally read a first time. ceding night, on the presentation of a petition front the gun-makers nes r RETFORD DISFRANCHISEMENT BILL. of Birmingham. What, he said was, that as he believed govern- The Ilarquis of SALISBURY (after moving that the evidence mcnt, at the present time, possessed one miliiun stand of arms, he Mr. Dugdale) saw no necessity for the continuance of the govern - Lee on their lordships' table, taken before the Committee of the ( [lease of Comatone, on the East Retford Disfranchittemenf Bill be 'cent manufactory for fire arms. The contrary of this had been printed) gars notice that on the 26th of April he should move the stated, and he was desirous of correcting it. The hon. member second reading of the bill. Ile had named so distant a day, that then presented the petition, which complained of distress, and their lordships might in the interim make themselves acquainted prayed the reduction of the malt tax.---Referred to committee, weh the evidence.--lords to be summoned. Mr. HUME moved that certain returns previously moved fer re specting the Insolvent Debtors' Court be printed.—Ordered. tete' lil NG presented a petition from Bridport, Dorsetshire, n; 1;1.4 the riiiiminent of death for forgery. Sir J. NEWPORT moved for an account of the sum of 4,302/.25. I, ea Kt N' L — M y lords, I hold in my hand a petition from an received b y the officers of the First Fruits Office in Ireland, and Anti-Bre al Tax Association, of Kidderminster, against the corn also for a return of the sums of money received and paid by them I &we I cannot forbear remarking that the petitioners tether ex- for the last ten years.—Ordered. ..egerete the injury they receive from the operation of the corn laws, Sir J. NEWPORT also moved for a return of the quantity o as ..'a 'y state the annual amount of the tax levied on the consumer butter exported from Ireland during the years 1827, 1818, and : ee 106,000,0001.—(a laugh.) The petition was then read and 1829, stating the ports at which it was Imported in this and other I eat on the table. countries.—Ordeted. The Far' of LI illlelt ICK presented a petition from a beneficed Mr. SADLER withdrew a notice of motion respecting the law of clergyman of the charen of England, living at Great Paxton, pray- libel, until after Easter. ing the removal of all disabilities under which the Jews labour on Sir E. KNATCHBULL presented a petition from the hop. account of their religious opinions. growers of llawkhurst, for the removal of the duty on heps.—Or- FOREIGN FLOUR. dered to be printed. The Earl of iIIALSIESBURY said he had a petition to present to The Hox. MEMBER presented a similar petition from the hop. their lordships of a similar tendency to that which he had the honour growers of the Weald of Kent of presetaieg last ye w from the flour manufacturers in the neighbour- Sir F. BURDETT presented a petition from the inhabitants of hood of the metropolis against the introduction of'foreign flour.• The Chalford, in Gloucestershire, against the truck system. petitioners stated- it was not his own argument—that they could not Mr. HU3IE wished to see all the laws on this subject repealed, compete with the sellers of foreign flour. When wheat was 725. a so that the master and man might be left free to enter into such quarter, the duty was then Is. per quarter; whilst the duty on foreign agreements as they thought fit, with a speedy appeal in case of flour, per barrel, was only ed. The statement was well worth their breach of contract. Ile (Mr. Huine) thought the hon. baronet lordships attentioe. He wished to take that opportunity of stating would agree with him in opinion, when he heard the arguments which would be adduced on the motion which stood for discussion what the pendent:is did not pray for, understanding that a body of men, English millers, had petitioned another branch of the legisla. on this question, when it came under consideration. tore to be allowed in grind the corn in bond for exportation, alleging The petition was read and laid on the table. that the profits arisitie from the offal, to which they would become Mr. HUillE presented the petition of a society established at entitled, were considateble ; and, moreover, their machinery would Kidderminster, and denominating itself the Anti-Bread-Tax Asso. be thereby kept in itiolion. He sincerely hoped that such a regula. ciation, Number I—(a laugh), against the corn laws; and the hon. member, for the benefit of the county members, noosed it should be lion would never be allowed, Hs it would afford an opportunity of collusion and fraud in every shape. This, indeed, bad been found printed —Ordered. to be the case, for the experiment bad been made at Liverpool with Alt. W ESTERN presented a petition from certain malsters at the corn there in bond, which led to the practice of many frauds. Saffron Walden, in Essex, praying the legislature would allow those Ile trusted that his majesty's ministers would not be induced to who had large stocks of beer, as publicans and others had to give listen to any such suggestion as the petitioners to whom he had jute satisfactory security to government for the payment of the duties alluded had thrown out; and that the foreign rum in bond would thereon, so as to prepare them for the change meditated in thc beer vat be permitted to be drawn out, and ground into ROUT, under the trade on the 10th of Octo ber. pretence that it was intended for exportation. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he was not The petition was then read, and laid on the table. as yet prepared to give any assurance to the hon. member on this The Earl of RADNOR presented two petitions from Denbigh, subject. It certainly was not the Intention of government too ppress and another place, complaining of distress and taxation. the trade, or raise obstacles, so that the hon. member might with The Earl of CARNARVON presented a similar petition front confidence calculate that every facility consistent with the attainment a parish in Kent- of the main object government hat in view would be granted to all classes making out a fair claim for' indulgence or consideration, Earl STANHOPE presented a petition from the fishermen of prior to the introduction or passing of the bills which he intended to Stainesby and other parishes in the North Riding of Yorkshire, praying the continuation of bounties. bring in relative to the beer duties and the trade therein, Muskett's Divorce Bill passed through a committee.—To be read FOUR PEI CENTIL third time on Monday. On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the Exctioneen the The Marriage Validating Bill was reported, and ordered to house went into a committee on the four per cent. annuity acts. be engrossed with one amendment, proposed by the Bishop of The CHANCe.LLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the subject London. he was about to bring under the consideration of the house was one An amendment to one of the classes was proposed by Lord of great importance, and calculated, as he confidently hoped, to en. HOLLAND, but negreived without a division. feet a considerable saving to the public. Since the time that Mr. Adjourned at a quarter to six, to Monday. Pelham first proposed a reduction of the public debt, it had been always admitted that it was the duty of government to take HOUSE OF CO ro3s--FRIDA Y. every fair opportunity that presented itself for reducing the fate- The SPEAKER took the chair at four o'clock. rest of the debt. The principle was admitted by Mr. Pitt, and NEW HAYMARKET REMOVAL BILL. though in consequence of the war, he was prevented from car. Lord LOWTHER brought up the report of the commit tee on the tying it into effect, he always kept the principle in view. Since the bill for removing the market for the sale of hay to Clarence Market, termination of the war the burdens of the country had been lightened Regent's-park. by operations of this kind to the amount of 2,000,0001. The rate of interest in this country was now such as to give a probability, Mr. BYNCir objected to the proposed removal of the ma rket as highly injurious to many of his constituents, who ,were farmers , and he might indeed have said a certainty, of reducing the four per who would have to convey their hay to market, an additional die- cents. In the public funds, the rate of interest at present was Lance of five or six miles by the proposed alteration. He calculated below this ; and, if they looked to the interest paid on mon., that it would require live or six hundred additional horses to be em. gaffs, they would and It not higher than four per cent, and in ployed by the hay dealers or tanners ; another inconvenience was 80170 e instances, as low as three and a half. Seeing therefore the distance from Westminster, where the carters, after dischar g i ng that a higher interest could not be obtained than under the con. their loads of hay, were in the habit of proceeding to fill them with version be should propose, it became the duty of Government to dung, as a return load. 'He did not see there was any material in- bring this measure forward, and of the house to sanction it.... convenience arising from the situation of the present market, and its The terms he proposed were these : for every 1001. four per cods. removal must prove very injurious to the property of many indivi. to give to the holdrr 1001. three and a half per cents. But as the duals in that vicinity. three and a half per cents. were now at 995, exclusive of the diet. Lord LOWTHER considered that the objections made by some dead, it became advisable, in consideration of this difference, to glue assurance to those who should accept the new stock that of the hon. member's constituents as being far from general. In the n whole number of the inhabitants of the Haymarket, there were only no reduction would take place for ten years. He might be six persons wino objected to its removal, and those were publicans, asked why he extended the period of this assurance so much be. ond who materially felt the change would be injurious to them by the y that given in 1824 ? The first reason was, that the ca consequent lose of the cut tom of the persons frequenting the pital they had now to deal with was double that proposed to be re. market. But a general and public nuisance was not to be longer en. deemed in 1824; and he conceived that by holding out an assurance, extending to a period of ten years, there would be less difficulty (lured because it proved lucrative to a few individuals. If such ob in effecting the conversion, and they would have less 4 per cents. to jections were listened to, , it would put a stop to all improveme nt of . ti:e metropolis. The present market was an obstruction of the pay off to dissentients There could be no difficulty in paying off public highway, and considered a nuisance by the immediate neigh. dissentients, unless what might by possibility arise from future finan cial operations. To dissentients be proposed to give the option of ac. boars, who had a just right to complain. He (Lord Loa - Uter would wish to ask the hon. member for Middlesex how he woul d cepting 701. in a new 6 per cent. stock for every 1001. 4 per cents. feel if the market carts were removed to St. James's-square, and not payable until 43 years after the creation of the stock. Some doubts were entertained whether there would be a willingness to stand in front of his mansion, where the ground was equally as accept of 701. in a 51. per cent. stock, from the reluctance many per. spacious as in the Haymarket? With respect to the increased dia . twice to the new market, the hon. member had much over-rated it, soot felt to reduce the nominal amount of their capital. It must be recollected, however, that a large proportion of the 4 per cents. in saying it would amount to five or six miles. if he would only look at Sheffield, Birmingham, and other large towns, Where new were held in trust for periods of long duration. Perhapstwo- fi fths markets had been made, he would perceive that they ha d invariabl/ of the whole of the 4 per cent. stock was in the hands of trustees and been removed from the centre to the outskirts of the town. So t g uardians . Some of the stock thus in the hands of trustees ant was proposed in the present instance, not at an increased distance of guardians was payable to intermediate parties, though ultimately to five or six miles, but a distance of one mile and a half from the or. revert to other parties, after the lapse of different periods, some of dinary parts of the metropolis. considerable duration. It' this option, therefore were not given, The SPEAKER wished to make one observation. On looking trustees mi g ht have the p ower of increasing the in come of these in at the terms of the report, he found it stated that the standing orders ghee patties, with a diminution of interest to those to whom had been complied with, and counsel heard in support of the bill, the property was ultimately to come. From calculations made by • but it omitted to state one important thing, which, by the rules of Pena* mote competent than himself, it appeared that 70/. in a five • dist house, waanecessary to be stated in every report, and upon per cent. stock, not payable for forty-three years, was as nearly as which the committee were considered to act, viz. " That the corn. Possible equal to 1001. in a three and a half per cent. stock, payable mittee had examined witnesses on the.allegations of the bill, and . to tot year& it would be attended with inconveniences if the - . found the same to be true." This:was an omission that requited conversion now proposed were made In a throe per cent. stock. It • the report should be referred back to the committee. would shut out the more near 'inspect of a reduction psi three per • Mr. BYNO observed that the promoters of the bill had brought out. stock, and they would obtain only the trifling Ahentags of no evidence fors and in support of it. thzeeshillings Pei cent., in place of ten shillings, when the present Mr. HOBHOUSE agreed with the hon. member for Middlesex stock would be reducible. It would not be necessary for him to that the removal of the market would prove greatly injurious to the enter into any further observations, and he should be prepared 10 property of many individuals. Thls„ltOwever, was,unfortunately, answer any queotton that might be put. By this conversion, • the case in almost all plans for improvement of the metropol6. 778,0001. would be saved in the course of next year. As circutn stances admitted of it, It would be unjust to the public not to pro " Whilst upon the subject of these 'alterations , he (M r. Hobhouse ) - ' Would give notice to the noble lordiLord Lowther) that it was his pose it, and ungrateful to the House of Commons, to whose firm ' intention to draw - the attention of the house, at the earliest opportu. DIOS and consistency in maintaining the public• faith it was owing '• • nity, to the subject of stopping tip the passage from the terrace that the state of the funds and of public agent was' now such as newly erected on the side of St. Jimes%park, , leading to Waterloo. enabled the Government to propose this operation. • place. , --(Hear hear.) —.This subject had excited a strong feeling, The Roohttions having been put front the Chair, • sot only as regarded several membent'of that house, butt he public Mr. BERNAL said be heard with great pleasure the explanation of his right hon. friends He was desirous to know how the dissen genteelly, who considered the stoppage of .;hat possum as a breach of faith on the pared government,'whci had pledtrea itself to the tienta were to be paid off , whether in Exchequer bills, as before, or formation of Otis con4ttnient entrance' ;tbi park. Ile was not then by what other means ? • ' prepared to say in what form he I 'bring forward the subject, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it would be' ril but he pat the noble lent Dottie • iojeution of bringing the " Inexpedient at PM." 6 ° eve - • direct answer. He should at some • subject, with as little de l ay as yentible; fully and fairly before that future period recommendto the House to deal with ths dissentients', . bouse.—aleas, taw.) . - ' . . in the way which he toneldersd best suited to the public interests, " Mr. Hums owsidered that %bit parernment stood pledged to and to the tomcats of the dissentients thsthselves. When their • r ea m an entrance for fsot et.the place alluded to. The' number could be ascertained, be-would than be able to answer the house bad voted Ipso sums _Ni l pale= and the improve- question more directly. • ow „ t of the pinks, oa ss iE m O . tie . polite were to. be deprived of this ThcCHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER In answer said, - l i tt l e i n d u l g ence to the tie, feelings of a few indivi. • th e party abided to by *boa. member would be paid off by 7,000 L r ~.... d o g, He bored the ber.for Westminster (Mr. Hob. instead of 1008111. beam. be vied an advantage In the wa y a t house) * woad oppose, bis-•he r. fruine) would do , the grant of interest carres=nale s hia leas et capital. • • mid be did Dot consider the proposed Phi . ,an further money until- the made to the public had been Mr. le T Wiled. lit thought' this meeting the subject would but wholly adviabßibmiso * l4 O be was wet opposed to the orpertrosse, If also Ryer coat& Maid par in ten years, thly Welt thou sedan . ans M wer r. Wi th. Bl ect Oirs:sahl e Wl' till. 'the -work of stopping up the **SIP' Mill' ow Norma to be crested i but t ree er the 8 per thenlor the ' subject was brought eats etsok, the Were* on which was die sone, toe this was not pay puma. NM Abell plociediali; b roo m th e bettor, and *told take on earlier woe. Ali Ow 41l moo. tom, et dog time that l i oto o vie by his honourable friend Mr. MS ail, it asy etald fairly radon the.publie burthens ' it Wail HU Mlight ric k ili bat k iris net kirk UP c o nceal front the - (41/..ll ; l" Rg i r -*- - . lilo• HNROB said tNtj a gisitiedibsr et bultviOusla had diaseadmiuhtw ware to be paid oft He should object to their - yo hiss - their wishes ri- Page *oda be.. opened as I being Paid by the itibillail. . - . . . .. . . . - - .- :. DISTRESS Or THE COUNTRY. ...... _ 111 r. MUNDY presented seventeen petitions, from as many parishes in the county of Derby, complaining of distress.—Ordered to be printed. Alr. LITTLETON presented a petition from the licenced vie tusllers of Stafford against the licensing system—Referred to the committee. 1 ~. . • Mr. ROBINSON said there would be no difficulty in paying off the dissentients, and it might be inconvenient to be more explicit at present. Lord ALTHORP said he thought the proposal a fair one, and beneficial to the public; for it was as good to reduce the interest of the debt as to pay it off. His object in rising was to make a few observations on terminable annuities. It appeared to him that it would be desirable to convert, as much as possible, the perpetual into terminable annuities. This, he understood, had already been done to the amount of 2,500,000/. but he conceived it might be further extended by the inducement of a bonus. The prospect of extinguishing, after thirty years, a large portion of the debt, was very desirable. The mode he should propose was that the com missioners should send notice to the Stock Exchange that the per. son who converted the largest portion of the three per cents. into terminable annuities would receive a bonus from the 500,000/. which was quarterly at the disposal of the commissioners. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he was not prepared to give an opinion on any new plan of conversion, but he was perfectly ready to go into the consideration of any proposal that might benefit the public. The annuity system before proposed was more successful than he anticipated, for the funds were then high, and it was then that holders were most disposed to secure themselves against a reduction of capital. In answer to an observation front Mr. CAPELL, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, the dif. ference of value between the new annuities and the long annuities was certainly calculated to excite some surprise. It arose front this, that the long annuities had one year more than the new to run, which gave the former a greater value. At present, the price was the same. Mr MAIIERLY apirovcd of the plan. If it succeeded, it would enable the government still further to reduce taxes, and re lieve the public distress. The resolutions were agreed to, and the report ordered to be re ceived on Monday. ADJOURNMENT Or THE HOUSE. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved that the house, at its rising, adjourn to Monday.—Ordered. COMMITTEE OE SUPPLY.—NAVY ESTIMATE% On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, the house resolved itself into a committee of supply. Sir GEORGE CLERK moved that the sum of 57,5601. be granted for the contingencies of the navy-office. Mr. HUM li could not allow the vote to pass without stating. his objections to the present amount of salaries, and to the difference which prevailed in them. If those salaries were not to be reduced, the country would in fact gain nothing by the new system of su perannuation. The offices of the navy, the navy pay, and the Ad miralty, coat the country jest 58,0001. in the year 1792—n0w they were set down at the suns of 142,4)001. He thought a great many of the clerks, and one of the secretaries of the Admiralty, might be got rid of without much inconvenience. The vote was then put and carried. The next vote was for 137,4601.12 r. Bd. for the salaries and con tingent expenses of the yards at home. Mr. HU M E stated that the yards at home were upon a moat extravagant scale. Private building yards cost only one-twelfth, and the French dock yards cost only in the proportion of one ' twentieth of the English yards. He wished to know whether future reductions were to be made in the number of persons, or in the salaries of those emplo/ed, or in both ? j • Sir GEORGE CLERK said there was no intention of making any deductions in the salaries of officers ; the savings would be ef . fected by a total dismissal of persons whose services were not wanted, • such, for instance, as the clerk of the check, whose office had already been abolished. The Vote was then agreed to. 458,7201. were next voted to defray the wages of artificers and la bourers in our yards at home for the year 1830. 680,000!. were next voted to defray the expellees on timber and other materials for the year 1830. 75,0001. were voted tor piloting and other contingencies. 06,4941. 15s. 2d. was voted to defray the expences of officers in our foreign yards. 61,0381. was voted for the officers in our victualling yards. On the motion that 64,0261. be granted for the expences of the naval medical establishments, Mr. HUME expressed his disappointment that the sale of the buildings had not, as it was promised, been sufficient to defray the expences of the repairs. He asked whether the recommendation of the Finance Committee had been attended to, and the buildings placed under the direction of the Board of Ordnante ? Sir G. CLERK was not aware there had been any such recom. mendation. The Vote was agreed to. Sir G. CLERK moved for a grant of the sum of 8451. for the expences of the Royal Naval College and School for Naval Archi tecture. Mr. HUME bad great pleasure in seconding this vote, which had been thus reduced from above 3,0001. to 8451. He thought the same means which had been employed to diminish the expences of this establishment ought to be applied to the military schools. The sum of 105,8341. was voted for the expenses of vessels in ordinary, and the sum of 27,8701. for the hired packets. The vote, for 854,0001. for half pay, was carried, and 298,0641. granted for superannuation allowances, &c. Mr. S fANLEY asked whether Admiral Shield, whose name was now on the superannuation list, did not enjoy the pension now given and a salary or retired pension or half-pay in addition to it ? The sum cf 1,5001. was then voted as a bounty to chaplains. On the motion for granting a sum of 270,0001. for Greenwich out-pensioners, Dlr. J. E. DENISON objected to the principle on which a ma. rine who entered the service at 20 was enabled to retire after 21 years' service with a pension varying from 181. to 471. a-year. At that age they were in their full strength, and he did not think they ought to be allowed advantages so far superior to the other branches of the service. Sir G. COCKBURN said the subject was under consideration— ' The vote was agreed to. Sir. G. CLERK then moved, that the sum of 174,584/. be panted for superannuations and pensions in the civil department et the navy. Mr. 111ABERLY complained that there was not appended to the list of names attached to this estimate, an account of causes of superannuation, &c. by which these parties claimed to be entitled to their pensions. Sir R. HERON rose, pursuant to notice, to call the attention of the committee to this vote, which included a grant of 900/. to two gentlemen to whom that allowance, under the head of superannua tion, had been made upon the most unjustifiable grounds. These gentlemen were Mr. Bathurst and Mr. Dundas ; and in this esti mate he perceived that the space allotted for a statement of their services bad been left blank, which he supposed was their proper distinction. (A laugh.) It was true that the amount of nine hun dred pounds was a small sum in the whole expenditure of the coun try ; but it sometimes happened that a sum so granted, though small in amount, might be very large inprinciple. It was well known that the fathers of these young gentlemen--(a laugh)—were Lord Bathurst and Lord Melville, persons who held some of the highest offices in the state. The latter of those noblemen now presided over the admi nistration of the navy, and held also the high office of keeper of the privy seal in Scotland. Lord Bathurst was not only president of the council, but also clerk of the crown. It would be remembered, too, that the grandfathers of these gentlemen had been, one of them, lord chancellor of England, and by virtue of that office had many valuable things at his disposal; and the other was a sort of Vice roy in Scotland, in which place the emoluments he received eon very large, and for services which were somewhat equivocal. Thus gorged with the public money, he was surprised that the families of these gentlemen should have condescen d ed to accept for them these miserable sums from the public, at a time of such genmal distress. The honourable baronet then referred to the pay of Ad. ' mirals Bowen, Sir R. Barlow, and Sir T. Harvey, who was Captain to the immortal Nelson, and contrasted them with these retired allowances to men who had performed no public service. He trusted that the house would by its vote of that night put an end to these lavish abuses of the public funds. He should not trouble the house further than by moving the reduction of the vote by the by the amount of these pensions, the granting of which on the part the parents of these gentlemen he could only denominate as being paltry, and on the part of the ministers generally as a mockery of the public distress. He moved the reduction of the vote by the sum of 9001. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was anxious to address the committee upon this subject, because the hon. baronet, having imbibed very meows immolate as to the conduct of the Treasury in the transudes, be was appesiteales that the same mon might =tad to others. He should - see *law the hon. baronet late the eatenessematta with which be bed aeumbered the ques t... (A langh.) He would repeat, estaimpous matter, because be Ad not alai that in discussing such aquatics it was at all nom: my to inquire what aims were held by the goadfathers of these gentians. This diecarelen arose set Ot come ameitliwahls redtivi•••■ wnicahm is bad hiss deemed expenses Moab, in die evaldielteme esanalme two isa Width* dinatisne in elks whirr the ndamiene wire mar, tlimia imam volusinfilime were of essisegeetel toretimainceasei were beaushtimair the am- Mewl= et the Lords et the Timmy by a letter addressed Ml lama the. Adadielty la th m e owl ta They bed SIM& tsar yew in their ease, , a elearaseranee which . he eensidseed lharafer. mate fee dila bad beencraitted to be mated In the (edam& The mid r _deelhgLirldi *dr an ill by the Mee width bad hem aimed is all twiner eases of a einem mama Tba Mem of eemealidesere et the navy sod vietaalling heeml e at r vs l i able ow, it they were unvilp 13 1 : 1 = at pl igst It dub; 111.ylidiliviowof the perdu. The Nee most applisable se dm prom wee that of the iseactims of the members et the memo hinni. irldsh the mernissionniv ported that die perms Was the siendene se be seism' had oboe- dotted other prospects and professions which they could not again pursue, and that a fair compensation for the loss of those advantages ought to be made. This was the case with Mr. Bathurst and Mr. Dundas, who had abandoned the profession of the bar. The con. missioners recommended that the cases of removal should be pro vided for by an allowance of two.thirds of the salary where the service had been less than twenty years, and three-fourths where it had been more. A smaller scale was fixed for the allowances to subordinate officers, and upon that reduced scale the allow ances to these gentlemen were made. In granting that allowance, the lords of the Treasury, in their answer to the Admiralty, re. commended that the gentlemen should be appointed to the fint va cancies within the controul of the department from which they bad been reduc.:d, so as to relieve the public as soon as possible frou; the charge. Titus it was evident that the cases had been dealt with by the treasury according to the rule► observed in former cases, and he never would consent to the adoption of different principles ac cording to the rank of the parties. Sir G. CLERK said that for the omission of the time of these gentlerien's service in their respective offices he was the only person to blame. The mistake had occurred by his not having accurately tilled up the estimate before sending it to be printed. Mr. C. WOOD said that this was the most extraordinary depar ture from the principles which ought to guide superannuations alit: had ever come before the attention of the house. The committee would not do its duty if it did not by its vote that night pronounce ha utmost reprobation of such a system. Colonel SIBTHORP condemned the case as one of a most fla gitious description, and contrasted it with the conduct of the govern ment in refusing a pension to an old sergeant, cn whose behalf lie applied to them, after a service of upwards of thirty yaw. He fully bdicved that these pensions would never have been granted but for the family influence of ilia parties. Mr. HOBHOUSE said, the Chancellor of the Exchequer might have given more information respecting these objectionable appoint. ments. It was unfortunate that the young gentlemen should stand i:: the situation they did, but it was also unfortunate for the country that they should hold the pensions they did hold. He thought his Ma jesty's government had received liberal treatment from his side of the house, and if the minister would cut away the support from under them,he could only lament that confidence had been misplaced. These appointments could not be defended ; the Chancellor of the Exche quer could not defend them. He thought he perceived a hlush on the face of the right hon. secretary, arising front the inconsistency of the ease. The question was, whether they should allow two cabinet ministers to appoint their sons to office. He said nothing injuri. ous to those gentlemen. He did not say that gentlemen of family should not have their share of public employment and receive proper emolument, but this was not such a case. Other meritorious indi viduals had been alluded to as enjoying superannuation allowances, but not one could reasonably object to the provisions made for Cull. ninghani and wheel. Those were useful men, entitled to the highest praise; not one could object to the situation they held. The lion. sentient= implored his majesty's ministers to consider whether it would not he more creditable to themselves to leave this rote to the free unbiassed opinion of the House. If the ministers could reconcile to themselves to continue the allowance to these young men, who had done nothing, it certainly would be a great fault. lie asked the right hon. gentleman or.ce more whether he intended to persevere in the motion. They had been charged with laughing at the scion of a noble stock, who had adopted an honourable pro fession. but they did not laugh at those who had abandoned an ho noutable profession. All men had not talent for the bar, and it they saw those who could not succeed as lawyers taking pensions from the country in time of distress, they out at least to smile at the transaction. Sir G. CLERK begged to call the attention of the committee to the question, whether there was any thing in the case of these two gentlemen that they should not have extended to them the sante in dulgence which had been uniformly granted to others ? Many persons hearing the hon. member for Westminster might suppo,e that these gentlemen had been removed for some irregularity. It was found ncces. eery to reduce the navy board, and those gentlemen were selected be. cause they were junior members. If any of the senior 'timbers had been removed, could any one say they would not have been entitled to a retired allowance. The committee would FCC that the two gentlemen had received no more indulgence than was bestowed upon other individuals. This allowance was purely of temporary na ture—it was understood that those persons were to fill up the two first vacancies in the navy. Ile really could see no valid ground for objection to the allowance, when such allowances had been univer sally granted in similar cases. Colonel DUNDAS rose to make a few observations in c qtence of an allusion made by the hon. baronet which could not be misunderstood. In describing the noble relative of one of the young gentlemen as viceroy of Scotland, the hon. baronet should have ex. plained his meaning. He knew not what the hon. baronet meant, unless it was that the noble lord received the support of the country. If that was the meaning, he himself had a right to be proud of the honour of his relation. The monament erected to the noble lord hi Scotland was proof of the estimation in which he was held in il.at part of the United Kingdom. Mr. MABERLY said the question was one which called for the unbiased opinion of parliament. The Chancellor of the Exchequer was not to controul the house upon such a subject. He would contend that the house ought to deal with the question upon its merits. Mr. Secretary PEEL said that the hon. gentleman had stated truly that it was a question for the House of Commons to consider —it was an estimate, and if the House of Commons thought it ought not to be granted, the government would do its duty in with drawing it. He assured the hon. gentleman, the member for %Vest cninster, that he should ever be proud of the independent support he had received from all sides of the house. M ith respect to the question before the house, the facts were these : - His majesty's go vernment were occupied in revising establishments, and among Odle: the commissioners of the navy board. If his majesty's govern. ment had been disposed to show favour, they might have coutinutal these offices to the individuals; but the course pursued by his ma jesty's government was that by which they took away offices *on. them, and instead of giving them 8001. and 1,0001. per annuli:. they gave them four and rive hundred pounds until another depart. ment could be ready for them. If they had been continued in office. his majesty's government would have been open to censure. The prin. ciple upon which the reduction took place was established when Lord Liverpool was in office. A treasury minute, dated the 2nd of February, 1825, gave the allowance of half their salary to those who had been reduced, not having served ten years. This was no job done for sons of cabinet ministers. The house might think the allowance too large, but it was not a novelty, but 6 measure in accordance with the rule for granting retiring allow. ances. The right honourable gentleman expressed a hope that he had confined himself to the facts, without any intention to bias the house in its decision. So far as the vote was concerned, he did not know how it could be set:led by any other than the ordinary way. He begged to add, that his Majesty's government had not been in fluenced by any improper motive in the granting of these allowances. Lord ALTHORP said his opinion was that government were not to displace efficient for less experienced officers. The question was whether these pensions ought to have been granted ? His opt nion was that they should not have been granted, aud, therefore, it was his intention to support the motion. The question being loudly called for, the committee divided : For Sir R. Heron's motion 139 Against it Majority against ministers.... The estimates were consequently negatived and withdrawn. The sum 99,0001. having been proposed to defray the expense in the Dockyards for 1830, Mr. HUME objected to the application of 25,0001. for building a naval hospital for the sick of Malts- The hoc. gent. knew that Malta was remarkable for splendid palaces, one of which might be converted Into an hospital without expense to the public. Sir 0. CLERK said the polices alluded to by the hon. member for Aberdeen would not answer the purpose. Mr. MABERLEY considered the estimate objectionable, and declared his intention to take the sense of the-house. Mr. Secretary PEEL said if the hon. member was determined to divide the house, the vote bad better be taken some other day. After WON further discussion, it was postponed. Sir JAMES GRAHAM asked whether it was the intention of his Majesty's ministers to go on with the navy estimates. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it was hi , intention to go on with the navy estimates, and take the ordnance when the navy were concluded. Sir JAMES GRAHAM then gave notice that it was his inten tion, when they tame to the ordnance estimates, to move the aboli tion of the office of lieutanant-general of the oednanee. The Crag having reported progress, the house resumed. and the report was ordered to be received on Monday. Mr. MABERLY moved that there be laid before the house a ttopy of corespondent:4i reladng to the new hospital at Malta.—. • The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and the House adjourned at One o'Clock. of Both Houses of Parliament adjourn for the Easte ro r Holiday, on Thursday the Bth of April, and are expected to amenible on Monday the 19th, or Tuesday the 110th. Aocounts are in town of the safe arrival of the Mar quis PALMILLA at Terceira , although the wand had been bloa t . a g e d by a strong Portuguese squadron. - wo P oo sT o r e T T r o o o. u —b iltO out X Ro T oc Cl sh T e T podimoso lot tolyCotrproccodinprrry OF yestaday,:we were unable to state the mos at the Member who milrocated *the prayer of the petition pesionted by Sir Tamara Writurnerox. We Ind that it was supported by Mr. Roam sou, the Member for Worcester. Prince Litman had a Grand dinner Party yesterday. at Ashbumbem House, Defer.itralt. II I - ;1 I I