Star. — London, England, 1813-05-14 00:00:00

on great fundamental points of the Constitution, vi ew of repealing them simply. The wisest Was to see what the Catholics could be indida I, n otwithstanding any reproaches that might on such a mode of Legislation. This was the already acted upon in Ireland, in granting pris to the Catholics. It was the mode acted on l y periods, such as in the statute of the sth of ieth, for the establishment of the supremacy, the Catholic Peerage was kept out of the Bill, •own declaring its satisfaction with that part of tholic body. He, therefore, approved of the dis t and judgment shewn in the present Bill. As policy of it, he should endeavour to state his distinguishing his difference of opinion from q' the framers. The measure was wise under securities ; and he wanted none which the of the Catholics could not notoriously give State. The Bill proceeded on the prin. if granting all the powers of the Constitu- Cath with security to our church and The Hon. Member felt it due to the church of Id to secure it from all that might be prejudi. it ; and also to 'abstain from the interference rrotestant -state with the spirituals of the Ca religion. BLit. the very nature of the privileges. 'onceded, and especially the legislative eligibi ight give a large share of authority, not mere general interests, but particularly the inte rests of the Church as connected with the State.— That most desirable part of the measure; the bring ine Catholics into Parliament, would give them that , power : they ought, therefore, to be prepared' to ex pect some regulations. The concession and the power conferred were points not to be divorced. The oath was prescribed as the only means of security against all the dangers which were apprehended on various grounds. He (Lord C.) had not the slightest feel ing of distrust, in these tones, of the Oaths of the Ca tholics. They had shewn their principles by. their seclusion from offices, on account of their conscien tious feelings respecting an oath. But he objected to making an oath the sole ground of security between Catholic and Protestant, and as meeting all probable dangers: this shewed great poverty of legislation,' and a want of knowledge of mankind; for society was not to be held together; crimes prevented, and the dis charge of social and public duties enforced, by taking oaths, however honest, on the construction of the particular parties. Old honest prejudices must be consulted, and combined for the welfare of society. Out of the conflict of various interests must be , found the security for all. By the combining of different interests against each other, the general result was brought out, which conduced to the general wel fare. Having no objection to 'the proposed oaths, yet he contended generally, that oaths were not a stricient guarantee against all dangers to society. —He allowed that no oaths could be more compre hensive than those provided ; and that t h e small number of those who had already taken them, formed no objection, since even here Protestants who did " not receive offices, did not qualify for them. The first oath was as much a security as an oath could be. The second oath to be proposed by a Right Ho nourable Gentleman was fairly arrested against all the t" (*gees which his clauses were intended to meet. In every view his Lordship had taken of the ques tion, he had gone beyond the simple security of an oath. When any set of men were to receive great advantages, they would be unwise to agitate the re moral of the theoretical inconveniences, by which they might disturb the general temper, in seeming to ex tort that which they might, perhaps, gain easier at another time. In the case of the Dissenters 13111, in a late Session, he believed that even as a concilia tory measure, had it been brought in at an oppor tune moment, it might have disturbed the harmony of the country, and the Councils of State. Practical wisdom seemed to have been exceeded in one point. R.b , Kly felt stronger than he did the impropriety of any law entirely precluding Dissenters from holding offices—hut he felt that there would be great reluct ance to s'lake an ancient established law: and the Dis. bolters obtained relief by annual Parliamentary sus peas, .n. which they might not get, by other means ; and.they had been for a lone time without, as far as sustaining any inconvenience from the Tes. Laws. He did not oppose the enjoyment dem n 3 privileges by the Catholics ; but it was iror. t,r o' eie Right Honourable Gentleman's considera ti wlwther the repeal of the Test Laws should be aptated along with this measure. The case of the Catiiolics did not precisely apply to the Dissenters : ye. it might be called an anomaly to refuse the re p 1 r.f the Tests to the Dissenters. It was of inporrance, therefore, to consider what might be tte effect of the present proceedings—(Near, Bear.) II the 'Pests rested inconveniently do any portion of ts• King's subjects, he would encounter all the diffi • culties of a repeal; but he doobted the prudence of °sapling it with this measure. In Ireland there was 4 , ) Lev, but great numbers of Catholics; in Scotland tone, hut very few Catholics. The annual relief from the test laws might still be afforded; and the emission of them now might avoid a question incon tetient in this country.—(Hear, !sear.)--it he was living in this view of the matter, he should be happy to he set right. The Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Canning), in his proposed clauses, had fairly directed them towards two great fundamental dangers : that of foreign authority in spirituals, :;.d that of such authority working, by means inconsistent with the Constitution and security of this country. He was not bigotted to any former notions, but he wished, consistently with his duty, fairly to examine how far his prii.ciples were satisfied by means conducive to the welfare and support of the State. He did not !Tile now °n details, but it must not be expected of aim to co ncv d e pr i nc i ples wh i ch were affected by de tads. From time to time he had alluded to the means to be employed, and he wished to chew why he thought the Proposed regulations would fall short of their ob. lest- He was a l ways f or ma ki ng suc h prov i s i ons as . would not wound the feelings of Catholics, nor attempt / 0 comp e l them to disclosures contrary to their reli gion but he always desired to guard against the cur rency of the acts of a foreign power in phi s country c P era ting in the nature of laws. He a dmitted that this was Attempted in one clause • but if the Right }inn. Ge nt l eman and himself meant the same thing, he did not despair of coming to an understanding ups in He would state his own measure. He had always professed that he did not mean to exclude the acts of the See if Rome, such as Bulls and Rescripts ; bat he looked at their natural inffuence on men's 1111 laws or with a course ged in, be cast 'no de a vileges in early Elizabe when tl the Cro the Catl cretion to the r views, those of proper religion to the ciple of tion to State. '1 Englam cial to i of the.' tholic rt to be co lity, mil ly in gi it- ItS Wands, lind on thelr tetnporal interests, as calling Ott :us, not in unfair jealbusy, pr h o stile relatio n s, to consider the practice of alt other States, and of our , own Catholic ancestors, who were • jealous of the en. croachments of the See of Rome. We ought to take • our remedy within the scale on which all nations had taken their's against such encroachments. He was sure most Catholics were too wise and too patriotic, not to be aware of such jealousies formerly, and now • also, when the Pope had ceased to be a free agent,l and could no longer exercise forbearance towards this country ; but had became; in fact, an instrument in the hand of our enemy. In what related to faith or discipline, or did not trench upon temporal mat ters, he agreed that it was not policy to interfere:— As to controul over the appointment of high gccle. siastical officers, which was absolute in the Romish See, he was anxious not to claim any nomination, or any direct interference. How far the clauses did interfere, was another point. But he consider ed that the Catholic Clergy ought not to be left in a situation, in which they,had two separate interests— arising from influence and duty ; but that their inte rests should be made such as to reconcile their duties, both to their own country, and to the See of Rome. I I This had been his anxious wish ; and which he once thought was near its accomplishment at the period of the Union, when an arrangement •was proposed for the Clergy, satisfactory to them and to the State.— He was sanguine in this expectation, having receiv ed, as far as the then Government could give him, authority to promise an arrangement to the Clergy, both of the Catholics and the Bissenters in Ireland. On the eve of the Union he expected this, from the quality of the measure, as well as from his having been the channel of communication. He had asked of Lord SidmoutifsCabinet, whether these measures would be agreed to ?—and upon receiving an assur ance that they would be so, and on that ground only, he consented to become a Member of that Cabinet. On communicating this to the Catholic Clergy, they informed him that their disposition was not changed (the papers on this subject might be found in the Secretary of State's office) ; but that they thought it would be discreditable to them, and unbecoming their character, if theyembraced a separate, exclusive advantage for themselves, while the Catholic Laity were smarting under the disappointment of their ex pectations. The measure world have been executed, but for the Clergy's.thus declining it. He thought it would be the least revolting measure to the Catholic mind ; and that it would form, better than any dry authority, a counterbalance to the See of Rome. No security was better than such an independence in their own society, that foreign power was no object in their eyes. He knew no better mode of placing them above all suspicion in the eyes of the Protest ants, or of enabling them with advantage to discharge their duties. He thought this of so much importance, that he was anxious to stare it, and he hoped the Right Hon. Gentleman would weigh it carefully._ He thought the Catholics would nJt consider his views hnreasonable, since he never dreamed of their doing more than the Presbyterins, whose church systems was infinitely more republican, and therefore tending mare to political inconvenience than a church purely monarchical, like that of Rothe, which seemed thereby more compatible with the genius of the Con stitution. He believed the Crown had the power of refusing every Presbyterian Minister, on grounds of disloyalty, even after the recommendation of the Synod, with respect to his receiving the endowment, according to what was established in Lord Hard wick's Administration ; but he believed no instance had yet occurred of a refusal by Governinent. This provision was, he believed, £lOO a year at the highest, the scale descending. The Catholics ought not to feel jealous of this measure, and alarm the pub lic mind upon it. In no view ought they, unless they would refuse all connection with the State. If sn, he understood them : but that would be different from their former disposition. He did not wish to extend this plan to all the various sects • but as it had been already done, the example oug ht to be followed with the Catholics, which would relieve Protestants from the fear of danger. The Clergy had not deemed it inconsistent with their duty, but declined it from the respectable motive he had stated. It would give additional facilities to the admission of the whole body to the desired privileges. As to a regulation in direct appointments to ecclesiastical functions, he did not think any law could be ad vantageously exercised. He was not prepared to say that a regulation respecting the loyalty of ecclesias tics, should merely exist in a declaration of loyalty to the Crown. He must be allowed to say, that the proposed Commission created an authority inconsis. tent with the rights of the Crown and the Constitution: if he did not misconceive its tendency. He thought it would not answer its purpose ; but if acted upon, would be worse than any system on more known and admitted principles. The Commissioners were to act without any influence of the Crown, save their nomination. They could not always have the means of exercising a sound discretion. The five re spectable Noblemen could not always know what was dangerous, for it was impossible that they could have the whole question brought before them in all its circumstances, in the full shape in which the Crown could view it. In referring all such mat ters to those respectable persons, senior Peers in both countries, it would be felt that they might sometimes have imposed upon them, what they could not do without great hardship. As the Bill stood, they Would be called on not me r ely to g i ve an opinion as to the qualifications of an individual— no! for • their authority respecting a person in an .early stage--but as a late one, when the highest ecclesiastical appointment was taking place. With - all his respect for the character and integrity of the Noble Lords who were, according to the Right Hon. Gentleman's Amendments, to be invested with • the power of granting a testimonium to the Catholic Bishops, he could not but think that such a measure would go to the creation of a tribunal unknown to the Constitution. It would, in fact, confer the power of appointing Bishops at the will and caprice of indi viduals, divested of all responsibility, and not ame nable either to the Crown or to Parliament. It would be, to all intents and purposes, a permanent Commis sion against the Crown, without being subject to the controul of public opinion, or of the authority of that House. The Rlght Hon. Gentleman would accom plish his object much better by proceeding according to the plain, clear, and recognized principles of the Constitution. He did not wish to quarrel in the sen- ' tinteutt he tom calla( upb6 to pitptest With the prio ri* of security itself, but with the fat that the pro , 'vision was not accompanied with due aid requisite responsibility. He would certainly prefer the ap •pointment of Commissioners directly and openly by the Crown ; but the Right Hon. Gentleman's mode was a secrecy against the. Crown, against the Legis lature, against all mankind—lt tended to establish a new estate in the cbtmtry, highly dangerous, and to transfer from a foreign power, to a power within ourselves, a right of interference seriously detrimen tal to the Roman Catholic body itself, and to the Constitution. To the proposed testimonium or cer tificate he should therefore most decidedly object.— When he looked to the question formerly, be consi dered that it was likely to take place as the resul t of the Union, because that settlement was calculated to surmount many difficulties, to open new views, to enlarge the system of general policy, and to strengthen the means, and consolidate the prosperity of the Em pire. While he lamented the difficulties which then existed and opposed the completion of the measure, he thought at the same time the period would arrive, when the Legislature might be fully enabled to carry that great object into effect. No moment could pre. sent itself so auspicious for the common interests and common happiness of the country as the present.— There was was no peculiar reason to induce the Ca tholics to believe that the Legislature were called upon to act from unworthy motives, front the feel ings of timidity, of fear, or the predominant appre hensions of danger. On the other hand, the Protes tants had every just ground for co-operating in the attainment of the measure. As Legislators, act ing for the Catholics as well as for the Prates. tants, they were bound to make every arranges ment for the public security, and the public good; to proceed in the great work by a suitable conge niality of sentiment; and to produce, by their co. operation, a diffusion of blessings incalculable in their influence upon the welfare of the empire at large.— l'here was at a former period much reason to believe that there was in the Pope a mild and benevolent spirit of conciliation, ready to concur in the measures most proper to be adopted ; and that there existed in the great body of the Catholics a disposition to run before the Crown in just concession and conciliation. Although the same facility with respect to the head of the Catholic church did not now exist, the want of that could not constitute any obstacle, if tne Catho lics themselves were ready, as they had been, to adopt ' the best means of conciliation, and to conform to the best interests of the country. The Pope was, at the moment that he addressed the House, a prisoner in the power of an inveterate enemy ; and therefore the friends of the Catholics, and the Catholics themselves, were bound to do their duty, without listen ng to the strange .doctrines of some individuals. He wished to have it clearly understood that there could be no preclusion to their claims on account of the Pope's detention. If even there were, it would become the duty of the House to provide exclusively far the Catholics, and the safety of tie country together.— ' The only question before them was the mode of pro ceeding on a question of degrees ; and he trusted most sincerely, that in the steps they had to take, no temporary indiscretions of individuals would be al. lowed to operate against the Catholic Claims. The sentiments, however indiscreet, injudicious, and un seasonable, which might , be expressed against the opinion of the general body by any individuals, ought not to be considered as a criterion by which the Le gislature ought to measure and regulate its decisions.' He could at no time, and under no circumstances, be induced to lend his sanction to such a doctrine. He' , misted that the Right Hon. Gentleman, who was en trusted with the care of the Bill, would finally mike such arrangements as should be found sufficient to guard against the chance of every danger, and to give to the Catholics every opportunity of enjoying the confidence of the Crown, and the esteem of their fellow-subjects. Of the Catholic Clergy in Ireland, he could not speak too warmly ; for he had witnessed, in times of peculiar peril and trying distress, the ex cellence of their conduct. He was desirous of uniting them with the State upon the same principles which allowed them to partake of honours and dignities in every Protestant country. It was his earnest wish to grant to them the confidence they possessed in Protestant States, where they had not opposed any obstacle, but had wisely lent themselves to the esta blished policy of the country. These were the feel. ings he entertained, and upon which he wished the question to be understood and discussed, when the fa cilities with the head of the Catholic Church existed. But if the auspicious moment in the Catholic mind now presented itself, and they were ready to take what was given in all Protestant States, unless in deed they declared they were different from all Ca tholics in all Protestant countries, from the Catho lics in Canada and Malta, he did not hesitate to say, that the results would be most beneficial to the com mon interests and happiness of the Empire. With respect to the Protestants in this country, he was aware that there certainly did exist a considerable degree of reluctance to grant all the rights and pri. vileges which were claimed; but he felt that the re luctance prevailed more among the lower than the higher classes, and that it was caused more by in temperance and misrepresentation, than by that con viction which ought to be the consequence of mature and unprejudiced deliberation. Yet the question, he was happy to observe, had gained ground, and he, therefore, felt anxious to solve it in every way, and by every mode consistent with the safety of the State, and with all the views and ends suited to the spirit and practice of the Constitution. Having thus stated his sentiments, he conjured the Right Hon. Gentleman to obtain for the Catholic Body the fullest acquiescence which could be given in the proposed measures, upon the principles he had laid down, and he pledged himself that they should have his cordial concurrence and support. He concluded with ex pressing his confident hope, that the House would • go into the Committee, where the question might be fairly and minutely discussed, and such an arrange ment made, as would give equal satisfaction to the ' 1 Protestants and the Catholics by the best possible pro. visions of concession, conciliation, and- security. Mr. PONSONBY did not rise to enter at large upon the topics to which the Noble Lord had ad. verted—but to assure the Noble Lord, that both he and his friends felt every disposition to meet his Lordship with the strongest feelings of conciliation. He would not prestune to understand all the opinions 'delivered that might by the Noble Lord. Indeed, it %mid be difficult for any non to ender:Wel whit might be the opinion of annther upon a question in• caring, as appeared from the Noble Lord's speeds, such a great variety of topics, without the most tna. cure deliberation, and, consequently, nothing could be more presumptuous than to make any alteratioft in the Bill now before the House, as if authorised b r the Noble Lord, where not only an approval, but complete understanding of the Noble Lord was as. eessary,—( Hear, hsar.)lt was fit that each mats should express his opinion, and, when the House re. solved into a Committee, propose such alteration in the Bill as was agreeable to himself. But he would submit to the candour of the Noble Lord; whether it was-fair or proper to require of them (Mr. Ponsonby and his friends) to meet his Lordship's proposition completely in the spirit to accomplish all he had in view ? They had formed an opinion upon which they had acted—if the Noble Lord had any altera tion to propose, they were ready to listen to it, and to give it every fair consideration ; to undertake more would be undertaking a great deal too much. (Hear, hear.)—The Noble Lord had agreed to the principle of the Bill, and had declared he would vote for the second reading—after this, for all further discussion, he apprehended the Committee would be the proper place.—(Hear, hear.) Sir J. C. HIPPISLEY rose under a loud cry of " Question," and a tremendous coughing, and was obliged, after waiting some time, to sit down. Mr. RYDER then rose, but after waiting some time, was also obliged to sit down. Mr. BATHURST then rose, and moved That the House do noir adjourn. The SPEAKER, having with difficulty obtained a hearing, stated the question. Lord CASTLEREAGH said, that his Right Hon. Friend had, he was confident, only moved the adjournment in order to obtain a hearing for such Gentlemen as wished to deliver their sentiments ; and having obtained that object, he had no doubt he would immediately withdraw it. Mr. BA'I'HURST stated that such was his inten tion, and with the leave of the House withdrew his motion. Mr. RYDER said, if the friends of the Bill were really anxious that it should pass in such manner as would give satisfaction to the country, he thought they did not adopt the proper means in not giving a patient hearing to Gentlemen who were of a different opinion. He begged that he shnuld not be considered as one of those who did not think that the restrictions, on the Catholics was an evil—he thought it a great evil ; and the difference between him and the suppor ters of the Bill was, that he thought no securities could be devised ; and every other individual, except the author of the Bill, thought that securities were necessary. (No, no, from the Oilltositiox ride.) lie un derstood Gentlemen to say, that securities were ne cessary, and that a 13111 should be introduced to dis cover what securities could be devised. If such were the case, he begged the House to consider what secu rities the Bill contained. It contained no additional security. In voting for, the Bill, Gentlemen voted on the ground that the clauses of the Rigbt Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Canning) would mike part of the Bill ; but for his part ho would prefer running the risk of the foreign interference, rather than erect a domestic Commission independent of the Crown, holdirg on the same tenure as the Judges of the land. The House would do, well to reflect on the consequences of repealing the Test Acts as relating to the Catholics. No securities had been proposed ; and when it was considered who %ere the framers of the Bill, it was not to be hoped that any other person could devise them. Mr. PEEL could not allow the Bill to pass through that stage, in which its principle was understood to be discussed, without entering his protest against it and he protested particularly against the Bill, as not being in conformity to the Resolution the House had come to in the last Session of the last Parliament; which Resolution pledged the House to a measure which was to provide securities, but this Act pro. vided none. The House ought not to abolish the bulwarks of the Constitution, without the Act should contain adequate securities. But the great principle on which he opposed the Bill was, as it regarded the connection of England with Ireland. If the Roman Catholic population had been amalgamated with a Protestant population, he should not have feared it so much. Bin if the Roman Catholic Church were to have a separate maintenance, he could not con ceive how the Protestant religion would be the esta blished religion of Ireland. He conceived an esta blished Church to consist either in exclusive privileges or exclusive maintenance. The Roman Catholic population being four millions, to 800,000 Prates. tants, it was in vain to hope to maintain the Protes tant ascendancy. He had been charged with incon sistency in voting for the motion of the Honourable Baronet (Sir J. C. Hippisley), after having opposed the principle; but there was surely no impropriety in trying to render the Bill as little obnoxious as pos. sible, although he might fail in preventing its adoption. Mr. WILBERFORCE thought the obscurity in which the Noble Lord had enveloped his opinions re specting some alterations or amendments, was placing those who concurred in the general principle of the Bill in a very distressing situation ; and he hoped the Noble Lord would, if not in that House, yet in some other way, intimate what his view of the amendment was, that the House might understand what he wished. In voting for the second reading, he had no doubt the House would do so, with a pointed view of the Bill, as brought in by the Right Hon. Gentleman, and in connection with the clauses proposed by his Right Hon. Friend. Lord CASTLEREAGH explained, that in what fell from him, he by no means intended to complain that he was not consulted on the formation of the Bill. It was natural to expect that those would be anxious to frame, who had been more forward in pro moting the general object. Sir J. HIPPISLEY rose, but stood for several mi. nutes intreating a hearing, before he was audible ; he very shortly adverted to some unparliamentary and unjust expression of Mr. Wilberforce, who had charged him with endeavouring to fritter away the Bill, and to compromise the rights of the Catholics. The Ho. nourable Baronet was entering upon other topics, when he was interrupted by an almost universal cry of question ! Mr. WILBERFORCE explained, but was inaudible. General MATTHEW admitted that the language used by the late Member for Yorkshire might be es.