Star. — London, England, 1806-01-28 00:00:00

fued tfo tar, however, am front apProving thole k, meaftves,nr withing their continuance, that I fineere. ly hope the fyfiem (lithe Mini(ler will perifh with the man. When lam called upon to Marks with appro bation, the political life of a Miniaer, whnfe meafures it has been almoft uniformly the fortui4 of my politi. cal life to oppofe, ley voting to his memory the higheß brow! that ever a country could confer on a patri otic Statferaan, I am bound to examine, whether the fyttem he has pureed was fuch as to deferve fuch _ honograble t But when I compare the fauatgerAf this cowry, whea firft the diredion of as Airy, was ramified to his hand, on the com mencement of his political life, with that in which it was left at the moment of his death ; when I corn parethe lunation in which Europe Rood then, and that is which the Rands now, in refped to France, at limit. I find nothing to warrant this Houle in bellow. ing fuch dirlindion upon the memory—fuch appro bation upon the fy Rem porfued by that Knitter. If 1 1 I look tothe Thrift brilliant periods of Britith Hiflory, -- and compare them with the prefent, I find the Sue taws of &bore illufirinus perfons to whom the coun try &filmed her freedom, and boafted as her proudeft connedtons, boiled from political exiltence—the Failleil of ORIIINGE, to whofe great PredecelTor in $6BB, this country was indebted for the foe calls of her glorious Revolution, driven from Hob land; and the illuftrions Houfe of Brunfwick ex pellfd from Hanover'. In' this coroparifon, there fore, 'I fee 'no auk to rejoice. If the motion weremerely to give credit to that Right Hon. Mi. miller for as cornea with to fetve his country, I am ready to agree, that fuel) was his motive of Atop; and that his errors ieere not thole of intention, but of judgthent ; but' I . caiitiOt conceive, that meafttres are entitled to publie itkiinvledgment and honourable rewind, milers* is Sell% that they bask been Cuero& fol. Bauman-to ens% whofe meafures have been of, the bigbetlimporcatice and advantage to this country, publiebonotirs of this kind have not been deemed neceffarY: What man, I afk, has rendered more important reprices to this chnntry, or more raifed her glory in the eye of. nations, than nay Lord Somers ? and yet no public monuments have been voted to his memory. • 18That env, I afk, has borne a higber moral chirader, or modefed more difinterefted and important feriices to Yotir country than Archbifhop Tillotfon, at the head of your Church, a man lb diC interefted in the public fervice, and fo pure in even thipg which related to bis perfonal interefts, and all pecuniary tranfadions, that be died deßitute of the' mauls of defraying die ixpences of his own funeral?' --Sid yet his touniry'iroted him no burial or mond meet. .To whom. sntathe country more highly in:. del*ed for her pr94Perity and her enance, than to MC; ;Wisps who reduced ' the intereft of money (rob Cour to three per cent. ?—arid Tet this country voted Mu& no public funeral. The fame may be fold of etr•Leird Goefolphili, to whom the country owed thehiglieftignititude, sod yet no public futultid or mpptiment : wait votedco,kie memory; apd therefore ! , fo far as general preeedests go, great talehts and I public virtais in a Stattfroan have not been:anal!, confidered as entitled to fuch marks of public dif tindion as are now propofed. The only inftance was, indie cafe of the illeftrious Lord Chatham, the great ancefter of the Rigk Hon. Gentleman now alluded to: He mrtainly7endeied his country the mon lig sal feridees. I do not will' to draw invidious diftinc. tions, or to qUtitiOfr the porky of the Hon. Member's I motives,. bot I with him to compare the fituation of I this country at the cenclufion of the peace of 1763, with its lituation at the conclufion of the peace of Amiens, or any other peace it Mall met conclude with France ; and I alk him, whether the compari foo.will warrant this Houfc in adopting the precedent? In fad e I Ca nnot conceive where lies , the claim of loch Manama to totems, where they have not been fuccefsful; nor bas it ever been ufual to confer them. I conceive, therefore, the Hon. Gentleman did not duly confider his motion before he propounded it to the Houle ; for furely, Sir, if he had, he could not have imagined you would vote funereal honours or , monumental tiophies to • Minifter whofe meafures have - been productive of fo much misfortune to the country, and whore lall, and moR important project, had fo recently terminated in difailers fa ruinous to Europe, and fo ferioufly alarming to the Britifh em pire. I do not wifh, Sir, to pufh my objections to any greater length at this moment ; but I cannot give my affent to a motion this night which would be vittually a contradiction to the votes I have given for a (cries of years, againfl all the leading meafures of that Minifler." MOROSE faid that he felt at all times a difficulty in ezpreffing his feeling, but he never felt fo much difficulty in he did now. He would ord . ) , fay, what were his private feelings on this fubjetl, but lie had already hoped that this motion would have been car ried with unanimity. He had looked back to the cafe of Lord Chatham, for whom a fimilar honour was moved. He had found that that Noble Lord bad °pooled Government with the greateft violence‘ and with every opprobrious expteffion that could well be imagined. But did that Government afterwards oppofe the granting of the honours claimed for liimi No. But tt ithout admitting the juftice of his cen litres on themlelves, they were fentible of his merits and contented. They knew that many dillinguiffied Statefmen differed in their opinions, and made his pppotition to thews no ground for refuting him fuch bon ,urs as the country was inclined to confer. The Gentleman objected to the words, "excellent Stater man." But Mr. Pitt might be allowed by them to be a good Ratefman, though he might have, in their opinion, fallen into errors. Sume faid that he . found the country in a (tote of profperity, and left it i n diffi culties and dangers. He did not mean to impute improper motives to them. He addreffed their un derflandings. not their feeling. This :ountry, like the ref of Europe, was reduced to difficulties by the )trench Revolutioo. Auftria had loft Flanders, and other countries had alto fuffered. But when Mr. Pitt same into power this country wis exhautted by ruinous wars. He found its commerce gone, and its power weakened. But, during his adminiflrk lion commerce flouriffied to an aitonithing degiee. He doubled the number of feamen—he doubled the thipping and the manufactures. He found the funds lower than they are now at the end of thirteen years war. The revenue then vac only about equal to the interell of the debt. But he improved our refources. It is true that he u.o. forced to lay heavy burthens on the people, but he bad always refuurces to meet them. But he would _1 tint OM noir on the merits irsi ,geodniirtifiration.— He was tarry that he had been forced to fay this much. His Hon. Friend who prepared the 810ii0b, willed not to word it Co as to taofe objections to be made to it, or to give offence to any one. He mere• ly copied it from the Journals and concluded that as it had bee' acquiefced is with regard to Lord Chatham, there could be no objection in this inflance. He could not perceive how they could be degraded, as they raid they would be, by confentiag to the motion. All that was intended to be conveyed by the words of the motion was, that Mr. Pitt had great and fplendid talents ' which he had uniformly exert ed for the fervice of she country. That he had ex erred them, and at the expence of his health, he was fatly convinced, and believed that the Noble Lord who fell in the battle of Trafalgar" did not facrifice Ais life for his country more certainly than Mr. Pitt 'bad done. His laft words, as be underftood from thofe about him were, " Oh my Country!" This (hewed how much he had the good of his country at heart. Any coneefEon reletive to this motion, could not bind Gentlemen as to dircufGons on the merits of the adminiftration for the Taft fix month,. That would reft on its own ground. He hoped, therefore, that all party fpirit would be put out of the queltion, and that merit rutty admitted, whiz!) was fo fenfibly felt, sot only in thiscountry, but over all Europe. Mr. FOX rofe, and fpoke nearly as follows--" I do not know, Sir, that ever I rofe to addrefs the Houfe in the performance of my public duty with more pain ,rban I do at this moment. I therefore hope that I *All experience force indulgence if, before I give my vpte on this queftioa, I fhould fhoittly Rate the rest as which Compel me to oppofe the potion Dow pea *fed hy the Hon. Gentleman under the gallery.— The Hon. Gentleman rays, that all party feelings and political animofities fhould be laid afide on the prefent pyciifion ; I allure him, Sir, that I do lay afide all • party feelings. If I bad any fuch at this time, they would lead me to vote with the Hon. Gentleman, 'lnd not againft him. At the fame time I do not pre• tend to undervalue party feelings. When a perfon is convinced that tilt opinions which he holds, if aded upon, would be pitoduaive of benefit ttr hiscountry, but finds that the only chance of having them ailed upon depends upon his connexion with a party, and the fop port which by this means he may acquire, it is his duty to hive recourfe to a party. He 'may confider this fairly and juftly as the belt mode of effellually carry ing into execution thofe meafures whichyia leis eftima tionr are the moll calculated to promote the public profperity and happinefs. But at prefent it is obvious 40,every one, that all the motives which are likely to, influence me, is far as party is concerned, are on the ,fide of the Han. Gentleman, and would kid me to Vote with him. The Hrsn. Gentleman mull fee, that if :the gratification of party feelings, if ambition. if -private intereft were my objeds, the molt „proper equrre for me to puerile, wbuld ire to give an imme- Mate 'agent to this motiod. Upon fuel a fuppofition ,adetY Mit - WWII be fenfible how much it would be my iraeret to coriciliate.as mach as poffible, all thofe who had the greateft refped and value for Mr. Pitt, to drown, if it could be done, the very remembrance of oar political contefts, and endeavour by every means that could be imagined,their rapport and favour. This Would be the line of conduit which party views would faggeft, as the molt proper to follow. But this is not all ; there are other motives of no lefs weight, that t &only recommend the fame mode of proceeding-- 4hefe are the high refped and warm friendfltip which !Voiles me with fume of thofe who rapport the motion. We have learned from the. Noble Lord (Temple) on the Bench neat me, hour he is difpoled ; fuch, no doubt, are the fensiments entertained by thofe with whom he is mat cliffely conneded. I muft now then vote in oppofition to thole whore friend(hip eonfti totes the delight and happinefs of ray private life, and from whom, fence affairs have taken loch a torn, it is prbbable I 'Sall never be feparated during the remainder of my political life. The vote there fore may be confidered as one not given to gratify any feeling of private animofity, or of public ambi• tion, but extorted by a usoft painful but imperious duty. Ia every patty point of view then, whether my object thould be to conciliate thofe who have the ' warmell attachment to the memory of Mr. Pitt, er to join with thofe who are already my political friends, my plan would be to fupport the Hon. Gentleman's Motion. I will go farther, and fay that if feelings were to be allowed to direct our conduct on this oc carton, the Right Hon. Gentleman oppolite (Mr. Rofe) might addrefs to our feelings arguments much more powerful than thofe which he has jolt now ad• dreffed to our reafons. I, Sir, have been engaged in a long courfe of oppolition to the perfon for whom public honours are now Claimed. I may fay that I have been confidered, and perhaps it may be called a* honour, as his rival. But I do alfure the Right FlOll. Gentleman; his molt zealous and greaten admirers, that during all that time, -I never oppofed him from a perfonal motive in my life. I will go farther [ldle and fay, that another motive would lead me to fup;, port the motion, and that is the refped which I enter tain for many of Mr. Pitt's perfonal qualities. Great qualities he certainly had, in no ordinary degree, in private life ; and great qualities alfo in points cOn. neded with his adminiftration. I do not think thfs ' a proper time to enter upon the particular ads of that adminiftration, but in the meafure of the Sinking Fund, he had always my warmeft fupport, and I freely declare my opinion that this has done a great deal of good to the nation, and that for this, there fore the country is highly obliged to him ; (loud cries of ;ear ! hear!). —There is another quality for which he deferves great praife. No Minifler was eocr more dilinterefted, as far as related to pecuniary matters. His integrity and moderation, in this refped, is con. firmed by the Rate of his affairs when he died. I allow that a Knitter is not to be confidered as furr derate and dilinterefted, merely becaufe he is poor during his life, or at his death. But when I fee it Minifter, who has been in office above zo years, wiih the full command of places and public money,without any peculiar extravagance and walk, except what might be expelled from the carelegnefs that perhaps neceiratily orate from the multiplicity of duties to winch the attention of el man in fuch a fituation muft be diteded ; when I fee a Miniffer under fuch cireum fiances ufing his influcnceneither to enrich himielf nor thofe with whom he is, by family ties, more peculi arly connected, it is impolible for me uot to eouclude that this 111.111 is dilinterefted. I molt fay, that he ha., with regard to priviste emoltiment, ailed with a high dew% of iotegritY anal Moderation. In the . . . con rfe of the long aelniinifitation of Mr. Pitt, all tha he stook fbr himfelf was the Wardenffiip of the Cinque Ports. This wag certainly in him highly dif interefted t and his dilintereftednefs in this refped Wiles with the More lutlre, when we confider the mode in Which, according to report, this reward has been (ince difpofed of. I, therefore, Sir, have every nrafon, from my intimate friendflrip and neat con. nedion with the living, and from my own private feelings and refped for the dead, who undoubtedly poffeffed many eftirnable qualities, to give my fuppnrt to the motinn nnw before the Houfe. I might be led to this by another motive. If perfonal vanity had any weight with me, I might from this confideratinn cnneur with the Honourable Gentleman. I might by this means gain a great deal of applaufe, without Any lots whatever in a party point siview, and I de not pretend to be infenfible to praife any more than others. Thofe who admired and cup. ported Mr. PITT, might thus be difpofed to call my acindue generous, conlislering the warm oppofition to e another in which we lived, and from what has (ellen firm the Noble Lnrd near me, (Temple) it appears that I would not have fuffered in the opinion of my firmed friends. But there are cafes, Sir, in which our public ditty is fo clear and imperious, , that no defire of praife, i3O motive of perfonal re. , ton (Pee, so wills to gratify our friends, nor any other confederation, however powerful, can poffihly enable us to difpenfe with it.—We mull then ad as oar confeienees directs, however painful this may Ise to our feelings. In my cookience, Sir, I believe this to be one of thofe cafes ; if the marks of refped were fuch as did not comprocnife my public duty in , the compliance, no perfon would join in it more cheer fully and more eagerly than I would. If, for inftance, it had been propofed ter remedy thefe pecuniary diffi. .cplties which Mr. Peer had incurred in the murk ill his political life ; if it had been propofed to do ;lilnfe things for his relatinns in that way, which his AIM 'aeltabwledged difinterettednefs did not allow hint to dd ; if it had been propofed to (apply the deficiencies of his own fortune, I would molt wil lingly content that all this fbould be done in the molt liberal manner. But it is a very different thing to be called upnn to confer honretrs upon Mr. Pitt as 4 , an ,excellent Statefman." We ought not. Sir, in inch cafes, to he complimented out of our confent—if our public duty commands us to oppofe the grant of Inch honours. 'fhe public honours are matters of the high elt importance,becaufe they muft more or lefs influence pqfterity. They ought not, theiefore, to be conferred lightly, but only where merit is clearly feen and se knowledgesl. I could farther add, Sir, that the manner in Which the Honourable Gentleman opened this bufi nefs, would lead me to give his Motion my fupport ; but when the public honours are folicited, it becomes to eonfult neither my intereft nor my feelings, but toadbere rigidly and confcientionfly to my public daty. I need not now, Sir, add any thing to what has been . . sze faid refpettiog honours conferred upon military men and flatefmen, by my Hon. Friend on the Bench near me (Mr. Windham), who has fo ably , and clearly pointed out the dillindion between the two cafes.— As little need I add to what has been faid by my Ho nourable Friend on my right hand (Mr. Ponfonby), refpeding many eminent public men. on whom no honours of this kind were conferred. and for whomt none wete folicited, though their talents, virtues, and good intentions were unqueflionable. It is not to particular ads only that we are to look. We muR confider the general effeft which thefe ads produce. with a view to the public benefit. Certainly when I Inok at Lord Chatham's monument—when I find the infcription bearing upon the face of it the grounds upon Which this monument was voted ; when I find it there Rated, that he had reduced the power of France to a very low ebb, and raifed the profpe rity of his country to a very high pitch; I mutt fay. that this cafe can never be compared with, that of Lord Chatham. I mull fay, that the count ry at pre fent is reduced to the molt dangerous and alarming fituation—a fituation which might call for any thing rather than honours to bz conferred. upon him, who bad the direction of themeafures which brought it to this Rate. The Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Role) laid, that in the cafe of Lord Chatham there was the molt perfect unanimity, though there' were many in the Houle who had oppoled his political principles. Why fn there was ; but then, Sir, the merit was clear, and the infcription related to points on which there met have been themnft perfed unanimity; and though certainly during the fever' years war there was a llrong oppofition, yet his merit on certain points, to which the infcription referred. was allowed by the bitterelt of his antarnilts. But though no confideratinn ought to induce us to betray (stir truft in conferring the public honours, yet at the fame time there are cafes in which the effects of this might be lefs fenfibly felt.—For inßance, in cafes where we fhould be compelled to oppofe particular ads of an Adminiftration, we might Rill make a clear diftinetion between what was good and what was bad. In the prefent cafe I (hall not enter upon the particular ads. But I was , always one of thefe who conflantly faid that the (yid tem to which Mr. Fit lent his aid was an unfortunate and dangerous fyftem, and the great caufe of all the misfortunes and calamities that affailed us in the courfe of his adminifintion. Being of this opinion. how can I confcientioufly fay that he whn followed this fyftem was "an excellent Ratefman ?" Let us look at the American war and the death of Lord Guildford. For the private charader of this man I had the highelt refired and elleem. I lived with him in habits of intimacy and friendfhip ; and yet, Sir, had any attempt been made to cotter upon him any honcur of this nature, I fhnuld certainly have thought myfelf bound in duty to oppofe it. Now, I have been uniformly of opinion that the fy Rem upon which Mr. Pitt aEteel was productive of the worn effeds t 3 the country and to the world. It was a fyllem, Sir, little calculated to bring forward men of fuch eminence as himfelf, though he was fo mach attached to it.— It was owing fro him, indeed, I ant perfunded, that the fyftem maintained its ground fo long.— His great eloquence, his fplendid talents call a veil over it, and concealed thole things which other wife would have been espofed in all their odious deformity. Nn man can be more delirous than I am to bury in oblivion the remembrance of thole contells in which we had fo long been engAged. This I flsewed plainly ennitgli while he was alive. But I cannot content to corder public honours on the ground i f his being 211. excellent Siatcfman, - on the man who, in my opinion, was the f.le, certainly the chief fup. porter of a.fyßem, which I had early been taught to ~., &Milder as a very bad one, an idea which the refi. is fully and fatally jintified. Thinking thus, it cannot lie expected that I Ihould fo far for2,et my poliiie thus, and the principles which I have uniformly profet,r3it, ac to fohfcr P.m to the condemnation of thole pt inciplec, by agreeing to the minion now before the Houle. But I defy the Hon. Gentleman, I defy any prrfon who differs from me, and yet nationally confiders the fob jek I defy any OPC . of thrice who Are moll delimits of carrying this motion, to mifreprefent my motives, or to point out any poffible C.:cling of inteteft of ambi tion that could induce Mt tapir:34e it. My motive is a fenfe of public duty, which would be a/framed, if agree to confer hiaroore, up grounds which to Mt de not appear to warrant my canctorence. Sir, I an; Ibrry that this motion was ever made. I faid fo be , • fore, .and if dude who were molt nearly cost:need ' with Mr. Pitt (Alluding probably to tht Grenvilles) by the ties of blood, and who may befuppofed to be molt interefted in his glory, and the refpee that is to attend his memory, had been confulted, I believe a ramie might have been (truck out, by which a fuita ble mark of refpeCt might have been conferred on him, without reducing us to this dilemma. Now, however, it is too late. The thing is done, and cannot bc helped, and nothing remains for us but:to do our duty, however much our feelings may be hart in the pertin mance. I moil theVore conclude with faying, that, in my opinion, my public dutr Alec call upon me in the molt imperious and irrefilto Isle manner, to opprife the motion, and that, howe ver painful to my feelings in eyery refped it may be, I molt do my duty." Lord CASTLE REAGH began by obferving, that Abe few oblervations which he had to fubmit to the .Hoofe upon this fobjed, were not meant In touch es la reply to what had fallen from the Hooourable Wernher who had jua fat down, and who bad fpoken Ifitoughout by no means in the fpirit of an adverfary, ..but rather with a liberality .hat was ,highly honour able to his feelings and charader. The teflitnony of the Hon. Gentleman to the exalted virtue, to the incorruptible honour of his Right Hon. Friend, mutt be peculiarly gratifying to all thole who revered memory§ who valued the fame of the illufirious per - fonage who was the fubjed of this debate. Upon the - oriuments of that Hon. Gentleman in oppofition to this motion, it was not bis intention to reafon. This, In fad, was not a quefiion to be determined by at- . gamest. It was quite a quelion of feeling. The mos ss 4 qviofeence of that Houfe and the country, in Inekek.,„, propolition, was more to be looked for fro=hro bir feeling than from cold reafon and if that , &,i} not calk it was vain to think of arguing.llllll:6lllorat • it. With regard to the alluring which had hileal.ftedb 4 in the courfe of the debate to the merits of that dills tinguithed perfon the late Earl cif Chatham. and thissa attempts to commit thefe merits with thole of Mee Bit, he felt himfelf jultified in feyiog, that: was a very marked difiindion between the cesert Isoth. The different circumflances in which Allopiet were placed, muff be taken into ehefidittatiot Usti fore any fair eftimate could be formed of theirliejethass ' merits. Mr. Pitt, it was known. had .to . .lie government in times of peculiar periitotrt: ore indeed unparalleled in the hiftory ott * ,or of use world—without any precedent .whatetrien ao AM his judgment, much lets to direct his w * • In that unprecedented fituation Mr. Pitt eeMidy • ed himfelf in furl a manner as to merit Um ; probation and obtain the confidence of meet and the country. Was it then too t on the part of the friends of fuck a man to tstioillodlats propefed mark of public yelped and gratig e would it be confiltent with the honour of P v • or agreeable to the feelings of the Country; vb,fs/je///,• hold it ? But the danger of precedent had been *WC ' upon. It was contended that limiler honouraimC been withheld front men of equally eminent Oaks.: A Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Windham) had sew :• tioned, that the fplendid talents and public cervices of Mr. Berke gave him a much higher claim to publicho nours than could be a fferted to belong to the charneee of Mr. Pitt. For the memory of Mi.. But ke the No. ble Lord paneled the ULIIIOII reverences f o r the fel•t' • vices which he had rendered his country he felt e thff warmett gratitude. Towards that great and Matitatei • rious individual he could not be fuppofed to entertain. • the fame degree of admiration with that which wan d * no doubt, feh by the Right Hon. Gentlempoodso had the good fortune to Olds the opportunity, task intimate intercourfe, to olsferve the virtues mid aft .1 appreciate the merits of that great man. But althetuk. I he had not the advantage of - filch opportunity, 44110 k admired fincerely and warmly the character eE Kr., Burke. He conceived, however, that the charades of this celebrated individual was not of filch a nature as to warrant any man in bringing it into competition with that of Mr. Pitt. There were fo many points of differences between the two men, that a eomparifen between them could not be fairly inliituted. Indeed. the Right Hon. Gentleman himfelf mud be aware, that however he might regret the circurnitance, he ' could not perfnade Parliament upon jolt grotmdc, to adjudicate to Mr. Burke the fame honours that were now propoted to be done to the remains of Mr. Pitt. Differ ;og widely as he did from the Gentlemen on the other fide, as to the conduct of the recent trant'aCtions on the Continent, however unfortunate the rebolt, he could not in the (lighten degree agent to the joltice of • the offer don, that there tranfaaionsferved to abate the claims of his deceated friend to the elteem of that Honfe and the country. Quite the contrary. Brit into this fuhjat he did not At pr dent will to truer. 1h t would more properly come before the Houle at ano ther time ; and he deprecated the idea of any man voting upon this occafion who fhoold Mier his mind to be influenced by the contempla ion of that fubjedt. upon which but very few men at prefent were enabled to form a correct opinion, The documents ne ceffary to a lull under (landing of the conduct of Mi lliners would be fpeedily laid before the Houle. The means they had employed, the matrons they had purfoed, wold be entirely made known ; and uit a fall and fa i r review, it would be for the Hook pr to , judge, but he protelled againft any premature judg 1, menu Hie own fentiment, he had no helhation fay, coincided with that which the Nona had heard I from the Hon Officer at the lower end of the fame fide with him (General Tarlotoo). Front the molt . ample inquiry he wee able to make, the conviiftion of g his mind War, that the condo& of the loft fix months of his decealed Friend's adminifiratiOn evinced a le rim of the molt fplendid efforts, not only for the fal- ' vation of dais Country bet ot Europe. It theft aorta bad failed, be was perfaad.st it would arpeat that ... c . . • I 1 ., t ".