Star. — London, England, 1813-05-28 00:00:00

PARLI.dMENTARr PROCEEDINGS. HOUSE OF COMMONS, MAY 2Y. The Scotch M3ll Coach Exemption Bill, the Scotch Court of Sessions Bill, the Warrington Paving and Lighting Bill, and the West India Trade Bill, were read a third time, and passed. Mr. LOCKHART moved for an account of the number of Debtors to the Crown, confined in the King's Bench and Fleet Prisons, with the amount of their Debts, and the date of their commitmen ts. '1 he' Iri,h Customs, Assessed Taxes, and Hyde Bills, were read a third time, And passed. 'I he Irish Aflll6 Dill went through a Committee :—the Report to-morrow, • `lite Committee on the Irish School Bill was postponed to Niontby, as was tho Irish County Road Bill to the same day, and ordered to be printed. The Report en the Ecclesiastical Courts Bill was postponed to Monday. Mr. Alderman ATKINS postponed his motion on the Ameri. can Trade, which stood for to-morrow, to the I I th of June. AMERICAN LICENCES. Mr. WHITBREAD rose to ask the Right Hon. Gentleman Apposite to him a question. Previous to hostilties with America licences had been granted to certain vessels to bring away Ame *lean produce, and in than was contained a clause, that the breaking out of hostilitks should not prevent the passage;—and, nevertheless, many ships having those licences, had been taken by our squadrons to the ruin of many persons concerned in them. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the [A ct/ices had been always respected, except in cases of a breach of blockade, Mr. WHITBREAD aid the Licences should have been so worded es to guard against at.y wets contingent event. Mr. FINI.AY moved for so Account of the Rates of Dudes en India Goods imponed by private Meech: nos. Mr. WHIZ UREAD repeated his question concerning the Licences. Mr. ROBINSON answered, that they were never intended to take in cases of blockade. Mr. BARING said, the licences were given to vessels carrying proviiione to the Peninsula, with leave to return to any port net blockaded. Any one, therefore, would suppose that vessels coming from America to victual the Peninsula, wouli be allowed to pass from any pert whatever. ' '1 he converAtion was here put an end to by the SPEAKER, 'rho reminded the Members, that there was no question before the New. CIVIL LIST._ - The CHANCELLOR of' the EXCHEQUER rose, to make the motion of which he had given no. lice, respecting,the Civil List. He said, he was aware that considerable prejudice lad none abroad respect ing the expenditure of the Civil List :—however, he felt confident that a due consideration of the papers on that subject before the House, would entirely re move that prejudice. There never bad been a year since 1804, in which the expenditure of the Civil List bad not exceeded the estimates. He divided the subject into eight different classes t—lst, Pensions and allOwances to the Royal Family-2d, the Lord Chaecellor and Judges of the several Courts-3d, Foreign Ministers-4th, Bills of his Majes • ty'sTrades men-sth, Pensions-6th, Small Fees—and 7th, Treasury ; and to those were to be added, occasional payment', He stated the several instances in which the expenditure in each class had exceeded the esti pnstes ; and accounted for it by the difference of cir cumstances, and by the increase in prices of almost every thing in use, since the year 1804 to the present time. This, he said, was particularly observable in the articles cf the bills of his Majesty's tradesmen, and the allowances to Foreign Ministers, which had lately been, increased in a very great degree. He enumerated the several excesses which had taken Otte in each year above the estimates ; and said, that the increase of charge remained to be accounted 114 by a comparison of the expenditure between 1804 and the present time ; that the political charges on the Civil List amounted last year to £365,000 and upwards, out of an expenditure of £1,306,022; and that the deficiency in the Civil List department was ti'203,200. He concluded by moving that the papers In referred to a Select Committee. Mr. WHITBREAD made a.variety of observa tions on the state of the Civil List. Parliament had not provided a permanent provision ; but the framers of the first Act certainly meant that an excess of even 10,C00 should be made known, whereas now the excess was to twelve times that amount—it was £122,000, over and above the .024,000 incurred from 1004 to 1811. The Right Hon. Gentleman made it 403,200; but the undertaking must be con sidered along with the figures. It was undertaken that the Regent's Civil List expense should be less by £40,600 than his Royal Father's; so that pro posed diminution was to be taken into the account. Though it was said, that at the cutlet of the Re gency, it was not possible to calculate with precision, yet nice calculations were attempted when the mat ter was proposed, and particular items stated. As to expense of outfit in furniture, fee. was there not a short Act by which the Regent received £lOO,OOO ? Did the Right Hon. Gentleman forget that, and the Prince Regent's controul over a sum larger by far than ever was possessed by any of our Sovereigns? The sum of 4100,000 was voted upon the statement of Mr. Adam of its necessity, for the providing a fund to discharge obligations which it was for the honour of the Prince to discharge : some of it was therefore to be put in trust, of which he had not heard any thing. The House, however, ought to be informed of it. The Civil List had been frequently embarrassed ever since the liing's accession. Appli cation was made to Parliament in the war of 1778. In 1782, it was thought a final arrangement might be made by providing necessary ci.ecks and regula tions. Again application was made, in 1804, at a lime of great financial distress ; but Parliament al ways thewed a disposition to provide effectually for the splendour of the Throne and the civil interests of the State. Lest year, more than twice the amount than was ever given to a Sovereign was given to the Regent, without any account of the matter, to which he (Mr. Whitbread) could find access. With re spect to the situation of the Prince Regent, it must be recollected, that-the embarrassments of the Prince of Wales came before Parliament in 1787, and in 1 7 95. mmissioners, on the last occasion, were appointed for the payment of the debts, and allowing 00,000 a-year for that purpose, they were to be ex, anguished in twelve years. In 1804, the Minister proposed a giant of £60,t.00 a-year for three years ; stating again, that then the Prince's debts would be all discharged, and that there would be no further reason' for she annuity. It was stated fertile Prince, that even then he could not resume his splendour, and that in 1806 there would still remain obligations xpon him, Oich would reader a liquidating lund pecessary. Provision had been made in the Act of 1725, for making communications respecting tht progress of liqiiii.o:Ation ; but such commuoicakions were, after ie time l discontinued, and no ("penmen. •trot. 9 be tonnd upon this subject. Were those debts now discharged ?—ln looting to former periods, it was me n tioned ; _ but what great sum could that sur p rized that his Noble Friend ( Lord Yarmouth) was material to recollect something about certain am ount to? None of these expences came out of had felt called on to do away with any misconcep. obligations understood to be incurred with foreign the £lOO,OOO, for they were all charged now under tion on this subject, as he was personally responsible. 1 Powers, which, though they gave no legal right their respective departments. The outfit was given, If an Address were voted to the Prince Regent, the against the Prince of Wales, yet he deemed himself without any account whatever. There was an item subject would come under the cognizance of the Mi. bound to make good. Before his Royal Highness of £7,550, for snuff-boxes. He hoped they were all nisters, but otherwise there was no occasion for them became Prince Regent, it was not of so great impor- fairly delivered; but he remembered an account be- to interfere at all on the subject. It was natural and tance to inquire into these circumstances ; but new fore Parliament, in which £745 was charged for the becoming in his Noble Friend, therefore, to off er any thft he was invested with the Sovereign power, it King's picture, given to General Paoli ; but the Ge- explanation on the subject, which he was able to give. was fitting, as was mentioned last year, that the pub- neral declared afterwards, that he never got any such The reasons for dissenting from the motion of hi; lic should know, if such were the case, that he was picture—(a laugh.) The provisions for our Foreign Right Honourable Friend were extraordinary. a under no obligations of that nature to such persons. Ministers were under the control of an Act. Dip o- Select Committee was, in such cases as the present, With a strange complication of figures, the plan pro- MAC men were entitled certainly to reward, after the most applicable. It was p r oposed , however, to posed at the outset of the unlimited Regency— employing their time and talents in the public ser - offer some Resolutions to a Committee of the w hole £60,000 a-year were provided for the Prince's Privy vic e. Accordin g to their condition in life, they were House ; but the House must perceive that it would be Purse—Rl2s,ooo a-year he received as Prince of justified in tak i ng or d eclinin g the remuneration ; but much more competent to the consideration of ai:v ' Wales, of which £5OOO a-year was understood to be that they did not alwa y s take it he knew, because he Resolutions when the subject had been satisfactoril y for the Princess of Wales's Privy Purse. Of t h e was ac q uainted with one case to the contrary. This explained by a Select Committee, who might R eport £120,000 remaining, the Prince was to give £50,000 4 was a melancholy subject; tor, although the Right whether the excess were occasioned by necessity o r to the Civil List—thus leaving him in fact a Privy Hon. Gentleman seemed to rejoice in the increase of t by abuse. Such a Committee would, with more p ro . Purse of £130,000. To this was to be added the our diplomatic relations, it was to be feared that they Ipriety, suggest any general principle which mi g h t Duchy of Cornwall, which was taken by the Public had been so managed in the North, that it would be ;be applicable to this subject. To refer th e su b ject in 1795, on an average value, at £13,000 a-year. In impossible to make two of the Powers who were ne- to a Committee of the whole House, would there 1804, the Duchy was entirely released ; since then it cessary to the p ublic cause of Euro p e of any use to- fore be a subversion of the principles of thei r pro . had increased exceedingly, by the falling in of leases wards that g reat ob j ect— ( Hear.) The excess of ceedings, and a waste ot time, without e chance and other contingencie s. The management of the this branch appe a red enormous. he head of Tree- of a satisfactory conclusion. (Cries of H ear , A ter.) Duchy rents had, he was sure, been vigilant ; no sury Incidents w as one in which ex p ence, by remu- He denied that the Reports of the Select Committee rights had been suffered to sleep. An excellent offi- ner atin g the Clerks, might be very proper; but he of former y ea r s were unsatisfactory—they had shears ter had been appointed for this purpose. He (Mr. observed an increase of five thousand pounds for Mes- that the House was not chargeable with the excess of W.) had been told that the income hat increased, sengers' fees. He thought it material for the House expenditure. Such a Committee, by making known on on average of years, to £30,000; but he would at to consider all these things in a Committee, as in to the House the departments in which the excess had present take it at .820,000—that would leave at the 1782: but his great jealousy was, concerning that prevailed, could point out to the House the case Prince Regent's disposal a Privy Purse of £150,000 great fund (of which they could obtain no account where investigation or controul might be necessary. per annum. Mr. Adam had formerly stated, that as to its dispositionhwhich was a privy purse to the It had been p ro p osed to arm the Committee with the the Prince would set apart £53,00 0 per annum for Prince Regent. e must repeat, there was first power of sending for persons, papers, and records; liquidation : what the amo u n t o f t h e debts was could £60,000, then there would be £70,000; thee, by but this was, he contended, an unnecessary pnwer— not be learned ; but it might be assumed, that if the relief from the Income-tax, re 12,000; and lastly, by because he did not think that the Committee would existence of such debts had not been declared, the pub- the Duchy of Cornwall, £2OOO ; making £162,000 be good judges of the expenditure of the Lord Chain. lic would have been relieved from £53,000 a-year. It per annum, independent of contingencies of Droits, beelain or Steward, and because there were no seri. could not be deemed unreasonable now to expect and It per cents. and the hereditary revenue of Scot- cious circumstances to warrant such an exercise of some sort of gross account of the amount of these ,land. As Mr. Adam said £53,000 were to he under authority. It was said, that a liberal provision het debts ;or that some authorized person would state at trust for a time, and £17,000 a-year given to the been settled on the Prince Reg:nt : but it should he what time they would be extinguished. The House Princess of Wales. Considering the large allowances recollected, that in the first year of his Regency no had never made such allowances to the King, though to the Royal Family, he did not perceive equal jus- additional provisions at all had been grantees to him. every body thought he ought to have all proper splen- tice to all, and thought that a larger allowance ought (Hear.) —The three great branches of Household ca. dour, and though no Sovereign had been more be- to be granted to the Princess of %Vales, for the very penditure—the departments of Steward, Chamber loved. The Privy Purse, at his Majesty's accession, reasons on which excess was justified; namely, thegreat lain, and Master of the Horse—had been untairly was raised from £36,000 to £48,000. In 1778, augmentation in the cost of articles required in various coupled with the personal expenditure of the Monarch. when £lOO,OOO were granted to make good arrears, departments. If that statement were true, surely These three departments had increased in a much it was raised to 0,000, and so it had remained. — it could not be quite right that her Royal High. smaller degree than might have been expected ; for Even in the arrangement concerning the Regency, ness should be kept upon her present moderate, limit. the expence of the last year had only exceeded, on an the Privy Purse had never been stated higher, though ted, restrained, and improperly low allowance of average, the seven preceding years by £17,000. The there was since the sum of £1 0,000 appeared to be £17,000 a year.—(Hear, hear.) —The Queen, for smallness of this excess was more to be wondered at advanced to Colonel *Mahon on account of the maintaining her separate state, even while the King than its existence. On the expenditure in his depart. Privy Purse. That possibly was added to the forty- was in health, had first £50,000 a year ; to which ment he should, in the Committee, be willing to give three thousand pounds, in order to make up the fund £BOOO were added, and recently £lo,ooo;—thus the most satisfactory explanation. It consisted of the for the extinction of the honourable engagements.— making £68,000. The Princesses had £13,000 a expence of all Foreign Missions, excepting merely The intricacy of the figures in all this business was year each. Parliament had a view in the settlement the salaries on the establishment. The sum at which such, that it seemed d on e f or som e express purpose. on the Princess of Wales, of what, under circum. this was estimated in 1804 (8 or 4E10,000) was so It the House retained any of its old Constitutional stances, ought to be her allowance. .1 he' Queen's small, that the amount of the extraordinaries of one jealousies, let it reflect upon the influence in which mission only exceeded the whole estimate. This jointure was £lOO,OO O a year, with the palace of so vast a Privy Purse might be employed; let it think Somerset-house, afterwards exchanged for Bucking- branch of service was so inadequately paid, that it of the possibility of a Sovereign having some interests ham, now the Queen's house, and a house at Rich- was found impossible that on their salaries Ambassa. separate from, those of Parliament and the public; m ond, an d ap ar tments at Kew or Windsor. The dors could live abroad at all in the style of Gentle let it recollect what was said of that which he (Mr. Princess of Wales, in the event of the Prince Regent's men. It had therefore been determined that they W.) thought ought not to be, that Boroughs were death, which GOD avert ! was entitled to £50,000 a should give an account, on their honour, of the sums bought and sold ! It was frightful to leave this fund year, by the direction of Parliament, which had en- expended by them, of whch, as much as exceeded without asking at what period the £53,000 would be ablest his Majesty to make that settlement, in such their salaries was to be made up by presents. This, released, which were to be employed as Mr. Adam event, on her Royal Highness. How different was however, was a branch which, he thought, should had stated. U such a sum were applied to influence her present state, even in these dear times, ..when hereafter be annually submitted to Parliament by majorities in Parliament, and purchase seats there, people calculated the expences of the Prince Regent's estimates. The sum for snuff-boxes, alluded to by it would be too powerful for the independent elected establishment minutely, from plate and wine down the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Whitbread), arose from Representation of the People, and might, under skil- to eggs.—(A laugh.)—Was it meet and fitting that : the immemorial practice of a snuffbox, of a certain tul management, subvert the public liberties. With- the Princess should continue as she is ? Would Mi. : value, to the Secretary of State, and the Foreign hii• out tracing farther this picture, which was no phan- nisters do their duty, if they did not advise their : nister, on the signing of any treaty. The Noble Lord tom, he must desire to know, when the £53,000 R oya l Master to ma k e som e a ddi t io n to h er scan ty ' then proceeded to say, that it wits not a wise course would be released, in order that it might be fairly provision ?—for such it really was when compared of proceeding, to bring into discussion the relative applied to the general purposes of the Civil List ? . w i t h ot h ers , an d w h en her ra nk a nd station in life provisions of the different branches of the Royal Fa- Instead, therefOre, o f agree i ng to a Select Commit- were considered justly. He felt that it was difficult mily : the effect of such a measure, both within and tee in the first instance, he should propose a Commit- to bring the question forward in a precise way. The without doors, must be, to defeat the professed object tee of the whole House, in order to move an instruc - Member for Liverpool (Mr. Canning) thought, last of those who brought it forward. He could not ad. tion to the Select Committee, to bring all necessary year, that there was an omission in not providing mit the situation ot the Princess of Wales to bear any information before them; and that with that view, somet hi ng on t hi s su bject. He hoped justice would resemblance to that of the Queen ; nor did he admit persons should be examined by the latter Committee. be d one to h er , a nd to the feelings of the country.— ' that any Public character devolved on her Royal The Committee last year was nugatory, from the He could not vote for the motion satisfactorily till Highness, by the high office with which the Prince of want of examining witnesses—it did nothing but information was granted. He found an account re- i Wales was invested. It was not fair to take the in. make comparative estimates of expenditure. The cently up to the sth of April, which stated, that come of the Princess only at £17,000; there was a language of the most eminent and illustrious men in £263,000 had been taken from the Droits to the use ! p riv y p urse of #5OOO p er annum, and a large mass that House, was very different from what he now of the Civil List. He could not avoid noticing, that' of debt had been discharged by the Prince.—(Hear , heard. Mr. Burke, Mr. Pitt, and Mr. Fox, I a-ways .in the year 1811 such restraints had b ee n p ut upon ' from the Opposition Benches.) —Those concerned LI agreed and maintained, that the Cimil List should be the Prince Regent, in the exercise o f th e Ro y al au - ' these discussions had given rise to all the di ffi celties made to fit its revenue—not that the revenue was to thority, as had appeared to him to be improper, and on the subject. The Noble Lord concluded by op• be made to fit the Civil List. It seemed, there- such as every Member of the Royal Family also . posing the Amendment, because the prima facie ap• fore, that there should be some diminution in those considered improper. It appeared, however, that ' peat once of the papers invited approbation rather than articles which were most expensive. As for the •from the time the restrictions had expired, there had censure. Prince's first expenditure on assuming the Regency, been a laxity, at least equal t o the ri g our which had Mr. WHITBREAD, in explanation, said that there had been £lOO,OOO specifically voted for it; been displayed at that time. He concluded by mov - the information which he had feceived of the inciene but he thought of the expenditure of that sum, a spe- ing, as an amendment, o That the several Accounts of the Princess, was not derived from any private cific statement ought to be laid on the table. Great of the Civil List should be referred to a Committee channel, but from the statement of Mr. Perceral in additional sums had been voted last year for the rest of the whole House." that House. The House, being apprised of her in. of the Royal Family. The expence altogether of the Lord YARMOUTH said, that if the Honourable come, could judge whether or not it was iufficient fur Royal Family amounted to £334,000. He did not Gentleman had applied to him for information on the her situation. wish to diminish their allowances, but he did wish subject of the liquidation of the Prince's debts, he ' Sir C. BURRELL made some observations on the to see justice, and an equitable distribution. There would, if authorised, have been ready to afford it.— ' state of the menial domestics of the Prince. He were also large sums charged *on the Consolidated He was not then prepared on the subject, but lie could thought it quite disgraceful that when any one called ' Fund, for the Queen and Princesses, and for the affirm that the money vested in the trust alluded to, upon the Prince Regent on public business, a book Royal Dukes. The whole, he believed, was more had been properly applied. , should be immediatel y p ut into his hand by the set. than half a million. Looking over the List, it would Mr. WHITBREAD said, that he did not know vants, to subscribe for those who were not sflicientlf be seen how little, comparatively, was given to the that he had any need to appeal to that Noble Lord ' provided for. The Marshalmen, he understood, hail Princess Charlotte of Waless—she bad only six thou- (Lord Yarmouth) while the Prince Regent had re- but a salary of £2O a-year, and gave £BOO for their sand pounds a year from the Civil List ; but she had sponsible Ministers in that House. (Hear, hear. ) . places. Their incomes were, in a great measum seven thousand pounds a year from the Consolidated While the Prince of Wales was not Sovereign, it obtained by begging about from door to door, ia , s t Fund. He wanted to know whether that was the might be proper for him to give the House inlorma- manner that made it doubtful whether they were ri ;e whole of her establishment. If not, thus money came Lion through his own officers • that was not the case l i able to b e committed on the Va g rant Act. h from other sources—but there must soon be an in - at present. (Hear, hear.) Whether the Noble Liad t h ought t h at p ro p er salaries should be given them ! crease of her Royal Highness's establishment. In was one of the Trustees he did not know ; hut the in , and that it was quite s!isgraceful that the servants i; the Lord Steward's department, he was glad to find formation he proposed to obtain, he wished to obi sin the Crown should be obil L ed to resort to such mean s a considerable diminution. In that of the Lord in an authorised and constitutional form—by moviii t. to obtain a livelihood. Chamberlain, there was a very great excess, which an instruction to the Chairman of the Committee, tor Elh The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQU was not accounted for-,-it was #48,000 more than an Address to the Prince Regent. (Hear. Imar.)— on a question from Mr. Whitbread, explained, 07 in lull, and on average of three years, it was an ex- He hoped, by this explanation, he should be absolved the sum of £lO,OOO paid to Colonel ‘,'Mahon on . a cess of £26,000. Up to the present time, this de- from blame in not applying to the Noble Leed. count of the Privy Purse, was that paTt of rile idiia;e y, and was Lord YARMOUTH, in explanation, said. that as of Wales's C ivil List of £GO,OOO :;'Rich had not ot 10 partmern had been managed economical) even held out as a pattern to others. So it had been to the fund alluded to, it had been voted by the House g iven up to time public "'rvice. always said of the department of the Master of die in confidence, to be applied to particular purposes, •Ilei ^ lll, Mr. WHITBREAD'S Amendment wis • i Horse: bat here, too, there was now an excess, art- which were well understood. It was a private trust, : and negatived %%submit a (I:visl ,, n. --2 sing, it was said, from the purchase of a numbee of ' and he thought it necessary to make the observations ! The •elieQL . e- CHANCELLOR of the EN , - a- 0 new horses. What number std been bought ? Were that he had done, for fear improper impressions might then proceeded to name his Committee. Amoilg I Fret Tata the stables of the King and the Prince of Wales ca- have gone abroad respecting it. names tt eri.. Mi. M•Donald, Mr. Lung, Mr. pable ot containing many more horses than they had Mr. WHITBR EAD repeated, that any question ! tie, Sir T. Coto tenay, Mr. W. Elliot, Mr. • 'A' hut''}' held ? As to expence in the . Lord Chamberlain's he had to put upon the subject, Le wished to propose and Mr. Tierney. :5: branch, for purchasing plate, was there not all the in a regular constitutional way : 111; Alio* wish that Mr.TI ERon hi N Y, - - --s name being cal led 0 r efi 7 Crown plate, as well as all the plate of Carlton-house? the Right Honourable Gentleman would state when to beg to be excused from being put on the C"lidenl'i'n"i.„ Was it not suf fi cient for the splendour of the Crown, this annual sum of £53,000 was likely to discharge a s hr did not wish to? be a party to a W.OllOll when the c rown's and the Prince of Wales's plate , t h ose debts, which it was voted for the purpose ef dis. on the public. lir wis het were unlteP Was any great quantity of plate charging ? Mr. • l'l Elt NEY said, that if it we7e mil • id s that be was not :a hiv wanted ? The fittintue of the Council Chamber L or d CASTLEREAGH to silt the matter, he should be e thing to employ . —..iii I