Star. — London, England, 1830-02-20 00:00:00

• . there were but fifty-eight clerks in this office. It would be read. Leted how goat a reduction had antecedently taken place In their number, which, at the time the reduction commenced, amounted to 173. In this office so few were the appointments which took place during the time of his predecessor, that not more than five or six wan appointed by the noble lord, and since he came into office himself he had not made even a single appointment. There had been also de ductions on the head of educating the young officers of the army. which now brought the whole of the expenditure on that head within the moderate sum of 7,656 —the governor of the Military College, whose salary had been fifteen hundred pounds a year, had accepted one thousand a-year, instead of the larger salary which he enjoyed for years. The next saving effected was under the head' of army pay of general o ffi cers, the expense of which was 126 . 00111. on which a saving of 10,0001. had been effected. The full-pay , of retired officers was taken for this year at 104,0001. on which also a reduction of five thousand and odd pounds had been made in the present year's esti mate. The half-pay and military allowances of officers was for this year 720,8591. on which head, therefore, the house would see a reduction of expense had taken place to the amount of 18,177/ The foreign half-pay was estimated at 94,9001. and here also a saving had been • contemplated of 2.3701. The saving, he believed, on the whole of these items,would be found to amount to 35,5491. The number of officers on half pay W' • hit was supposed would have been reduced , he had last year promised would be 140; but, in point of fact, he found that they had amounted to 210 officers. The saving on this item would therefore be atleast 15,0001. This, with the savings in other items in the half-pay department, it was true, would apparently seem to give a total of somewhere about 18,000/ but the whole amount on these heads—and it would be accounted for from various causes why it was apparently only 18,0001—was really equivalent to 37,0001. How could it then be said, as the honourable member for Mon trose had asserted, that there was no material saving on the head of half-pay ? Great praise Was•due to the conduct of the Com. enander-in-Chief for the arrangements which he had made to prevent the discharge of effective men from the service of the army. The best results were to be expected from the course which he pursued in that respect. It had already effected a reduction of 1,200 men front the pension list. It was to be o b served, that there was one great defect in the arrangement of 1806. By Mr. Windham's regulation, a man was entitled to a discharge and a pension for life often in cones. (menet. of slight disabilities or injuries, and without any regard to length of service. The result was, that the pension list was incumbered with persons who laboured under slight and often temporary disabili ties, whose average of service did not amount to four years, and whose ages did not exceed 21. Under these circumstances, he felt it his duty to recommend that no person should be entitled to a pension for' life, who had served his Majesty under 14 years, unless for wounds received in the service. He hoped that, under this regulation, the pension list would fall, Instead of increasing yearly as it had done, and would atlength become as low as it was in 1817. The next item to which he should call the attention of the committee was that of the widows' pensions, amounting to 145,2671. being an increase beyond the estimate of last year of 1,85 W. There were regulations in contemplation for placing those pensions on the saute footing with the naval peesions; in that case, no pension would be allowed to any widow whose husband had served under ten years, or had not been killed in the service. The committee would find on the face of those estimates that Mr. FIIIICCiS Moore, who was on a retired al lowance of 1,8001. a-year as receiver-general, had voluntarily relin. quielica 100 i. alear to the public service —(luxe.) He could in form the Committee that it was done In um most unostentatious manner. Sir. Moore stated that, as lie lived out of this country,and therefore did not contribute any thing to its exigencies, he felt himself bound to relinquish so much of his pension. As he (Sir H. Ilardinge) was present when Sir John Moore, the gallant brother of this gentleman, had received his last wound, and was a witness to the almost superhuman finunas with which he met his far, he could not help observing that Mr. Moore, though filling a less conspicuous situation, partook largely of the heroism for which his relative was distinguished. The Committee would appreciate the gift still more when they understood that it came from a gentleman possessed of a very moderate fortune ; and that Lieutenant-Colonel Moore, a gallant friend of his, the son of this gentleman, had acquiesced in this arrangement, to his own ma. neest disadvantage having but a small fortune besides his pay.— (Hear, bear.) The expence of the whole amount of force was 6.123,1121.75. 4d. being the lowest estimate for the last twenty-five years. The reduction in the ordnance of the army was 100,0001 lower than in 1822. In the distribution of the force it was gratifying to be able to state that, though a year had not elapsed since the passing of the Catholic Relief Bil, his majesty's government were enabled to withdraw 3,000 men from that country, which made a saving of 50,0001. in Ireland alone. Ile hoped that the reign of peace and justice in Ireland would present the necessity of keeping up a large military establish ment in that country. As the amount Of farce was materially affected by the consideration of the reliefs which were required in the various colonies of t h is country, it was right that they should be taken into consideration. It was impossible, with a smaller force titan the present, to afford the usual relief, which was ten years abroad and four at home. During the last ten years we have only sent out Illty-two battalions instead of seventy-four, which were re quired by the usual practice. The honourable member for Car newun had observed that the guards might be reduced on the ditierent Stations, which was a fair way enough of looking at the question. But, when he told the committee that the Guards were the sante now as they had been in the reign of Charles 11., anti in the year 1792, they would probably agree with hint that there was not much opportunity for reduction in that qtiarter. He also observed that the cavalry might be reduced. To that he should observe, that a reduction of 454 men had been made already ; and with respect to second majors of cavalry, the Lunimander-in.Chief had already decided that, as vacancies tell in they should not be filled up. if, then, It appeared that the number of battalions at home was not too great to supply the necessary relief abroad, the next question was, +cheater the garrisons abroad were too numerous. Upon this pteet it was in evidence before the finance committee, that rtes garrisons were not more numerous than in 1792, though Si. Domingo Insti since become an independent power, and was within 21 hours' sail of some of our West India possessions, ish!ch were also, he might say, in the neighbourhood of some great. reimblics. The garrisons in thy West Indira were, in fact, smaller at the present day, as were al s o th o se w e po s se s s e d: on the Conti nee: of America. With but une solitary exception, that of New Saute Wales, the garrisons of the old colonies were lower. If the garrisons of the old colonies were leas, it did not seem unfair to assume that the garrisons of the new colonies were nut too great. 'tut whole force was not within six thousand men of what it had lisen iti 11122 , but it should be remembered that that was an ex periment which had failed. The honourable member for Aber iteeit h.cd expressed some surprise that the militia force had not experieno.d a greater diminution. But the honourable gent. was mistaken. it he thought that government had ever con templuted tee putting down of that constitutional establishment.— Wee I the lion. member fur Limerick (Mr. S. Rice) was in office, he tied not expressed any wish to that effect, but bad merely said that many of the Staff were metes*, and that Staff had been reduced. (Hear, hear.) But, though tee militia was not put down, nor hie tended to be put down, it was brought back to what it had been during the peace of Annetta. lie did not know what the in. ten. ions of the honourable member for Limerick were, but as the government had received the yeomanry in its present state, he concluded that it was the intention of the former government to have kept it on the same footing. Still there was a reductioa of tea per can. eff e•ed in that corps ; and if it was found, upon ex perience, that any further reduction could be made, he was confident chat his noble fvend who presided over die department would be anxious to make it. We have now passed the maximum of charge on the duct) weight, and might look forward with confidence to a peteces.ive re:lee:ion, under the armngemente which had been made. eeuninti,e be expenditure of the army. The hon. membei eluded his spe,en by moving the first resolution—that 2,110,278'; les. be granted to his majesty to defray the theme of 88,848 men, constituting the landforoes or Great Britain for the year 11XIM Colonel DAVIES said that he approached the subject now before ti e committee with great anxiety and embarrassment, in comic; quail of its great importance. By toe , decision of that mien it seula be seen whether Parliament was realty alive to the shuatten of the country—wnether it was determined to act up re its mofesetens, as recorded out the journals of that house, or to abandon every eternise of economy in their 'Resent embarrasemeres If they should unfortunately determine to destroy all the holm *kith their promises had excited, who would. take upon hies if to answer fur the consequences, in the agitated esnerof dos public mind ? When he looked at the estimates now before them, he mould mestere that a Was with feelings of deep regeet and diseasidection. Alan all the promises of the ministers. he found that the public was only to experience a saving of 2140004 in this important branch of the public service.—[ There was much confusion- in the house during the commeneement'of the honourable metuber's speech, and ieseemed to increase as he advanced, amidst cries of e‘ Order, .order.," and liar, hat.") Mr. HUME rose to order. If the committee would. not Ham• to Iris I • . /OW. f • d, it was his dettemination to move that they 'herald 'erect progress, and ask leave to sit again, 'when they' su%ht be more disposed to allow honourable members to do their. duty to the (m oo ". Colonel D.l N' 1 E'S thanked Minium; 'friend fee dor biro, and hop e d t h at , on a question otench. hypostases: l r asetnitste• would conderand to afford him their. attention. The.gatateareue meat to the mouthy a minivan, whatever redueden was tetlLul i I i I was the necemity of supporting the rank of Ghost Basile I thogeneral scale of Eutope. But was it the fact that the stood: um high as they were anxious to represent ? On des cootrary, he , believed that never since- thirteens-4 Ilharlber thihowlid. did Me l character of England stand so low as atiwommes When we looked to the east, we saw our " ancient ally," as Turkey had been called, inosonletl. to . ur Fngrand Ell 4 X hibd currrd with ',40111106 .."‘ lOl4l - • • Mr. HOBHOUSE complimented the gallant officer opposite (Wu H. Hardinge) upon the admirable manner in which he had brought forward these estimates—a manner by which he seemed almost to lead the house captive to his views without inquiry.— (hear.) He (Mt. Hohhouse) preferred a good weak government to a good strong government ; for he had seen enough of this country to see with what difficulty what was called a good strung government was controlled by the best interests of the country in any measures which they were disposed to take. Upon the other hand, a weak government would always find it nem. nary to conciliate the good opinion of this house. His object in rising - was to put a question to the right hon. gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer). The question was, whether govern. inert meant to make any reduction of taxation. The right bon. gentleman had spoken in very general terms about a reduction of the estimates, but not a word had been said about the sinking fund, or a reduction in the taxes; he thought therefore, that the country had a right to know abet relief was intended for the distresses of the country, and unless some satisfactory statement was siren on that point, he should vote for the amendment. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER would merely state that the house might rest assured that there was every readiness on the part of ministers to make every reduction possible ; but it was flake out of his power to go into any minute detail at the present moment.. He was sure that every one must see that if he were to make any partial statement, this would tend to aggravate the die. tress. and lead to false calculations (hear.) He stated this merely in a general way, and trusted that the house would• not, from his lence, entertain any opinion favourable or disfavourable on the sub ject mentioned. Cul. SIBTHORP said a few words, the purport of which could not be ascertained. Sir J. WROTTESLEY said that the country must look for relief from reduction in taxation, and that they had a right to ex pect every , relief In that respect practicable. He concurred entirely in what had fallen from the hon. member for Essex, u to the In crease of the army since 1822, and on that ground alone he would vote for the amendment. Sir It. FERGUSON wished to state, ass military man, that ha did not think that a p.ingle regiment could be dispensed with.— (Hear.) The hon. member for Essex had alluded to the state of the army, and the relief that was required for the colonies, but be did not seem to entertain a correct opinion on that subject, or was at all aware of the relief that was required for the army in the Else and West Indies. It would be quite impossible to keep it up without supplies from this country. For these reasons he could not concur in the statements of the hon. member for Montrose, and must there.! fore oppose the asnentinient. Colonel DAVIES explained, as* whited to know whether asy reduction was to take place In the India, army. Sir ROBERT WILSON gave great credit to the right hon. gent. for his statement. He had examined the animates, end he did not think that the number of men proposed was too ; large for the present establishment, and for the defence and security of the Co lonise. But the question was, whethet so many places ought to be garrisoned. His gallant ftichd had spoken of relief as regsmied the Indian army, and he consented with hint on duo pion He thought the East India Company aught to pay a part of the ex , penes, and that this was a proper time for the question, as a coin mince had ,juet been appointed for inquiring into the affairs of i 4 HANEY HAIIDINOE said the len Indian army bad been I placed on the dead weight limy and 40.01,10/. had base paid by the company. He wished that this sum should be paid over, in order, to diminish the dead weight, b u t on inquiry he fbund that this could' mit be admitted by act of parliament. lie did not think that sum saffichnt.. Mr. STANLEY eneurrail in what had fallen hum the member for Westminster, but, at the same time, be thought MS statement given by goiernmeitttio good 'anti hit that he idtratid be emir tonna we division that night. He watch, asses oonvitteed .afthe-psepriety of each a num° as he believed, inci the bins 411rown eat by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that farther nine . don would . tab. pl} a. Loa MATEO/ME thought the trooped the lin could not undergo any inativhd tedisetton, ea* liCeditlit• of the vie resellber 'whieh:went wmaived to make up deficiencies in roginanili= • He should' Weeny see s any reducsion in troops who Ind tistinstiver so p liantly, and who had been so servideas& to the otaintry. The reiluetibn ought' multilane, Is ether depenmooks. bir A. Villfhle defended , the ant *odd &Weak A3hiett so soy reduction le thlt,eavalry,*littir jos Aft our mamas which required a.losg.titne to render e theNst. No moo Wait mute ithifoti% than him's& to relieve tile Mennen or the country, dnd he should phmlf Mar sifkoft 1. Me.. 111 J: Sir G. MURRAY would offer a few remarks in reply to the ob servation of the hon. member (Mr. Labouchere) topecting the Ca. nodes. The hon. gent. said they were governed on a garrison prin. ciple, but it should be recollected that the force was less than in 1792 , and that the population had [neatly increased since that time. It also should not be overlooked that there was a war in that country within a late period and military arrangements made under such circumstances, could not immediately after be dispensed with. (Hear.) With respect to Ireland, on the extent of the force In which country some stress had been laid, he would remind the honourable gentleman who made the comment that until lately the people of that country had been agitated by circumstances which the measures of last session, he hoped, would put an end to. The mass of the people were discontented from causes which were now to be buried in oblivion—but while he trusted that all danger was gone by, still be thought it was prudent not to be too hasty fn reducing the force. He had no desire to see a greater military force retained in that country than necessary; and he had no doubt, after a short period, that much of it would be withdrawn. With respect to the colonies, particularly the West India Islands, where, as in Ire land, a great part of the population was not under equal circum. stances, he thought that the same reasoning might apply. He did I not wish to say that offensively towards the people of Ireland, or to raise an argument of strict analogy ;. but there was enough in the cases to allow of an allusion, and to justify the maintenance of a vs. amiable force in the colonies..—(Hear.) The hon. member fee Abingdon, in speaking of the regiments of the line, had done thew no thore than justice. It was a truly admirable force, and be knew no force of equal number, in ancient or modern times, that went through so great a quantity of hard and wearing-out met. vics.—(Hear.) He agreed with the noble lad ihe emeehop Northampton (Lord Abhor/4 in all that bed hem add frj him of the guards. No panegyric was neeMermy on ith pint towards that fine body rof }}'troops ; but be thought that the maintenance of them could be upheld on no other issumilo Mike these strictly military.(—Hear.) The nature of the gleittilid of this country rendering it fitting that a portion of its mill. tag force should be in attendance on the person of the King (Hear.) The guards performed that duty, and the general duty of the metropolis, and there was no doubt but that they discharge:A it better than it would be done by other regiments relieving in sue. cession—( Hear.) After a few words from Sir R. Inoue, the house divided— For the resolution For the amendment . . Majority The gallery was again cleared for another division, but we un. derstand it did not take place. On our return we found Mr. HUM moving that the estimate of numbers of the land forces should be reduced from 88,000 to 78,000 men. Mr. PALM PR said that he feared the country would be of opinion that the house would make no reduction, and that vote after vote would be passed, and the session allowed to pass over, without any relief of the burdens of the country. He thought no saving, even the slightest, should be despised, and that the fretting of let ters by members of both houses might be given up with propriety.. (hear.) Mr. HU3IE, on revising the estimate, said he would alter his amendment to 71,000 men. In 1821 he had the misfortune to carry the house through 73 divisions on the army estimates, which occupied several weeks as, the noble lord (Palmerston) well knew • and though at the end of the session not one farthing was reduced, still an address was voted to his majesty, ind an abatement prayed fur; and it was a remarkable fact that within a few weeks afterwards 13,000 men were reduced. The number at that time was 81,000 men, and it was reduced to 88.000 e At present it was above that number, and he begged to submit the course he had pur sued at that time as an example or precedent by which the house might learn to aet of its own accord—(bear.) Lord ALTHORP said he would vote for a reduction of 5,000 but not of 10,000 men. air. C. FEROUSSON agreed with the noble lord. Mr. 11U3IE consented to change his amendment, mud moved a I reduction of 5,000 instead of 10,000 men. The house divided— For the amendment Against it 93 - -110 Majority . The estimate was then agreed to. Mr. HUMS Said that he would resist any further progress. It wwe►ident that the House of Gonnuons bed•deeided not to reduce one shilling of the public expenses. Then had been eight haunt tory unfortunately spent. The house resumed. Report to be received on Monday. Adjourned at half-past Twelve o'clock; MR. CORBETT'S LECTURE. Mr. Cobbett, on Thursday night, delivered another lecture at the Mechanics' Institute. The Theatre was crowded, and by a most respectable audience. It must be repeated that the following is only an outline of the leading points of the lecture, ail, delivery of *Wet occd• pied upwards of an hour and a half, and was listened to with the moat eoroplimentary attention, e*eept when loud laughter , or earnest applause interrupted the lecturer. Mr. Cobbett commenced with observing that they might now pretty well judge of what the " collective wisdom" would do. The name was given them by the late Mr. James Perry,but they had now assumed anew name; dew was, ones of their body had re-christened them. Sir James Graham, the•other night, at the conclusion:of his speech, thanked his constituents for affording him the opportunity of addressing the " noblest assembly of free men in the whole world" (laughter). That " noblest mews bly," then, hatoonfirmed alllterhad said : he had repeatedly declared that if they persevered in their measure without ;adopting other/ilea/wee, the systatimouldhehlowmipiroin ifP to bottom. The Rukeof Wellington haddeclared that he would persevere, that there were to be no more colors cad Mr. Peet had avowed (alaiestin.the 'fords' slightest signal of any in the mast dirmotoli.,,.eonse : rim to the auk-furgoldt. notes would mum be.worth Mr. C.'s) doctrine. There:: ••-~ A f " . • , of , pew ;. Mr. pet( had al/9/ e.' old be ready to give Itlivaolas fOr say joilletinie• phis _r hisformer lecturei tha t the st [3111.11414 an.ollsertmuies as moo to make.bofore eh, Mem: i tontiOn•Uvlefrrine Wottid•ltr of the to *ordeal/40m Who tigpatlon wasL u rb i tler the jpOoPlir d oweeepAraii WQuW.inuueflifteely wtorto obtain aorreirthrt, • member tor wow) 14, wee imidokthe.t. Div spoken of the increase of *levant, iiritemst co& hist on that point. lie thought that, after the healing only 19e. and that wits his (Mr prostrate at the feet of Russia ; for, though she might be allowed a few years more of feverish existence, her power. as an independent state was gone. He did not blame the government for not plunging the country into a war, but if we were to be in peace, he would say, let us have the establishments and economy of peace. The army estimates for the year 1830 amounted to 8,123,1121. His honour• able fkiend had said that this was less than the sum granted in the year 1792; but, however It might appear on the first view, a of the revenue of the country during the two periods Zt i t i ltr is si: l w that the reduction wasmore in appearance than reality. It was said that the defence of the country ought to be kept up. So he said too ; but not at such an enormous expense. The army establishment 'of this country, at 90,000 men, with all its mann ries of half-pay and pensions, cost as much as the whole army of France, amounting to 150,000 men. It was the duty of every man to suggest the best mode of reducing this establishment to the lowest possible degree. He should, therefore, propose a plan which would be found beneficial to a considerable degree, and quite consistent with the service. In the reduction of military force, the first point of observation was Ireland, where, if the accounts of the restoration of tranquillity by the operation of that mes sure which would immortalize the Duke of Wellington be true, perfect harmony prevali, most of the existing force ought to be cut off. He had heard it stated that the neig hbourhood of Dublin was more peaceable than that of London. t appeared to him, therefore, that 10,000 men would suffice for Ireland, instead of 18,800—which would give a saving of 8,800 men. lie would also abolish the depot companies, as an establishment attended with great expense, and having a tendency to impair the ef ficiency and discipline of the army. He would next look to the colonies, and there reduce the force very considerably. The lonian Islands ought to be given up altogether, if they did not, as it was at first said they would pay their own expences. At all events the force in them might be safely diminished by 1,300 or 1,400 men. In Malta, he should suggest the reduction of 800 or 900 men, so also in the Cape of Good Hope and other Cola' eyes, where the force now kept up was much too large. The whole army establishment of the United States of America, as voted by Congress last year, was only 6,000 men ; and this force pro. tected an extent of country as large as Europe. The Americans re lied upon a more constitutional force—their militia. With respect to Canada and New Brunswick, he should advise the depending more upon the militia, as in those places there was already a militia of 140,000 men, and precisely the same description of troops that the United States would bring against them, if they were disposed—a thing very improbable—to make an incursion into Canada.— It would be better also to recruit the ranks of the regulars in Canada, from those used to the climate, the liquors, &c. of the country, than from perfect strangers. He also advised enlisting men for limited services, instead of for life, as more just towards the individual soldiers. Upon the whole of these estimates, he must say that he expected to find much larger reductions. The house ought to consider well before they passed them. He had heard of notices of motions for the repeal of the malt tax ; he should advise the moving for this repeal before the supplies were granted, for if government got the money, they would not care a fig fora repeal of taxes. He had a very high respect for the present government. He knew of no set of men whom he would wish to see in their plaves, and if he thought that any measure in this house would have the effect of putting them out of office, he should be s!ow to give it his supp ort . But the time had gone by when ministers would resign be cause there was a majority tgainst them in this house • and perhaps, if the truth rem avowed, they would not he displeased at being left in a minority upon the subject of reduct:cn. Ministers were plagued, upon all hands, by the members of both houses, for this and that place for their relations, and it was difficult to refuse them. A good division in this house would take a great deal of that trouble off their hands, by showing the world that the House of Commons were in eatnest for reform. He firmly believed now that ministers had not gone so far with reductions as they at first intended. Finding division in the enemy's camp, they have taken advantage of it, and go on now that it seems as fez as ever from being healed. He would ask the right hon. gentlemen op posite, whether they meant to apply the excess of revenue to the re duction of taxation, for in any other way an excess would be of no use to the country, as it would be absurd to talk of a sinking fund under present circumstances. He could only say that, if the Duke of Welliagton consented to a salutary reduction of taxation, he would receive the support of a great majority in this house, and make his name immortal in this country. The hon. member said he had an amendment to propose upon the original motion. He wished to give government their own terms but only for three months— and in the mean time, it might be seen what ultimate reductions could be made. lie then moved, " That the chairman be directed to report to the house, that it is the opinion of this committee that a select committee be appointed forthwith, to consider what further reductions might be made in the military establishments of this country, in order to the reduction of taxation, and the giving such other relief as the country requires." osseque had passed, at least 10,000 men ntlglit be spared front Ire. hedowd4o,ooo men in other quarters, which would make endue d., •Ist 1111,100 men. He should recommend too, that they should inquire We colony after colony, and see what reductions could he made, and whether there were more troops than were. necessary. He vas opt else to despair of the country, but he would say that England should not sink for the colonies. There had been a coesidendffe falling off in the revenue to the amount of 1,700,0001. Taking, therefore, such a deficiency into consideration, as well as the distressed state of the country, he should support:the motion of his hen Mend, and inquire whether the country, under such elr dumstttacea, ought to maintain such a large establishment. Mr. MABERLY said that, if the guards and cavalry were kept up at home, the infantry could not be reduced while the present ex tent of colonies were supported. Lord PALMERSTON, would at once declare that he could not vote for the amendment;though he was ready to admit that the house was called on to make every reduction that could possibly tend to relieve the distress of the country. Considering the cir cumstances of the country at home, and its relations in every part of the world, he would not willingly perm an estimate below the standard fixed on by his right hon. frith& He would not go into an explanation of the reasons which led him to form that opinion, be. cause the house was in possession of all that could be said on the subject by the observation of the right hon. Secretary at War. He could only say, that whether or not a reduction could be effected by the giving up of certain colonies, was a separate question altogether, and it should not be mixed up with the present debate (hear.) He was bound to say that his right hon. friend had proposed to the coin mittee every reasonable reduction ; and be (Lord P.) who knew so well the difficulty which existed in making abatements on such a variety of estimates, was well cement with what bad been done. He said that it was not in one estimate that the reduction had been ef fected, but in several (hear.) He would abstain front any remarks on the reduction proposed by the right hon. gentleman, the Chancel lor of the Exchequer, but only say that be was glad to hear that so much bad been done ; and he trusted that it would end in some re. lief being afforded in the shape of diminished taxation to the country. Mr. LABOUCH ER E would vote for the amendment. He weld not annwive that so many as 5,000 men were necessary to Nova Scotia and New Brunswick ; nor could he believe that the enormous estimate for Canada was required. The conduct of government to. wards that colony showed that they intended to uphold them on a garrison principle.—(Hear.) In his opinion the militia of the country ought to be encouraged, and he bad no doubt, with rea sonable support, it would be quite equal to defend it from aggres. sion.—(Hear.) He protested against the principle, and he felt most strongly on the treatment which certain officers of " the militia had experienced; and he thought that his majesty's ministers were called on for explanation. Sir H. N'IVIAN said, In reply to the observation of an hon. member, that there were four regiments of Guards always on service. Mr. T. DUNCOMBE was convinced that the reduction pro. posed by the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer would only tend to the disappointment of the country; and that disappoint. meet would be enhanced by the declaration of the right hon. gentle man, that he was unable to come down with any proposal for the reduCtion of taxes. fore, the " noblest assembly" had confirmed Ilk opinions, that the return to paper would introduce two prices. .Let that be the case, the whole of the monstrous system would soon be blown up. If they hadhad a printed account oftis List lecture before them, they could not have inure cor rectly supported his sentiments: There was a manifest desertion from the ranks for paper Money the moment the dangers werepointed out. They shrunk from paper— and recoiled at the idea of reduction of taxation. Yet, what was' the state of the country? In many places they were unable to collect the poor-rates; and, in seier.ti Instances, plots of men, with cudgels in their hands, had • gone to collect the rates , for themselves. There was the dauger. He had often mid that when such event occurred, there would be the danger. Yet with out a return to small paper, and a reduction of taxation, what was to be done ? What had they to expect from the . " Noblest Assembly of freemen ?" Sir James Graham bad proposed a reduction of the salaries. The whole \t a very timid affair: bat it was right enough to say t h an those who received 2/. where they ought only to re ' ceive I/. should have only the IL That, however, i! was declared in the Noblest Assembly of Freemen, was not to be extended to the Army. That was vet.) strange ! Cut down the pay of the civil servants but not that of the Army. No; that was a thing that was " done, and could not be undone." Did the agriculturists say that to -their labourers ? Na, not they, hut reduced their pay, the value of money hating been enhanced, and prices having fallen. But the pay of the labourers in red teats was not to be reduced. Oh no ! Ito expected no'reduction of taxation. Tho Noblest Assembly would not touch any tax; they no more durst do that than they had the courage to reduce all, or nearly all, the interest of the debt. As to reduction of expense, it was nothing ; the country wanted reduction of taxation. The people wanted relief—that alone would benefit the try. The taxes affected every thing ; and it was astonishing that the farmers Made so much noise about the poor-rates, while they said so little about the sixty millions of taxes, the cost alone of collecting which was greater than that of all the poor-rates put together. The malt and beer tax consumed five-sixths of what thus expended in beer—two thirds of the cost of tea, and more than two-thirds of what be received for his Register.— For that publication, after all expense, he received about, lid.. The Government had its 4d. tax, and duty on paper. But induction of tax there would be none; for the moment it was proposed in the " Noblest Assembly," almost all shrunk from it, because they knew how much of the taxes the several branches of the higher classes received. As to the poor they knew how to take care of themselves, as their mode of collecting poor rates lately at the town of Maidstone, and else where, with cudgels in their hands, proved. He had repeatedly said that the poor would not lie down and starve, and that fact was now proved. The struggle would be with the aristocracy to get a reduction of taxa tion; the poor know their rights, and would enforce them. The fate of Mr. Hume's motion, there being three to one against him, as to any reduction of taxation. No, they might depend upon it, they would hear of no reduction of taxes ; there would be plenty of talk about reducing the expenses ; but what the people wanted was to hive has to pay. (Loud cheers.) Let them take off Only the malt tax—only three and a half oat of sixty millions, and he would unite with Sir J. Gtahatti in calling them " the Noblest Assembly of freemen in the world ;" and, however hoarse he might be (Mr. C. continues vo7 hoarse), he would sing their praises throughout the land. Bat they would not touch it, nor any tax of any consequence. Having detailed with great force how the taxes affected the people—the malt and beer ditties alone making the poor man pay fid. for that beer which, without those duties, would coat only Id as he was prepared to prove. He repeated, that reduction of that taxation was the only thing that afforded the coun try any chance of relief. If there were not that reduction, relief there would be none; and difficulties would con tinue to surround the state, let the " noblest assembly of Freemen" do what it liked. That noblest assembly was more puzzled than ever—it wanted the rents, and it wanted the taxes too'; but both the noblest Freemen could not have. There were terrible hankerings about reducing the interest of the Debt ; but that could' not be done—the nation could not be looked in the face with the continuation of the present taxation. He had often petitioned the House, and Mr. De uison presented another petition front him on Wed nesday, stating the warning he had given, and setting forth his apprehension as to the present crisis. What he stated there he really felt ; expressed his severe apprehension; and, according to the fulfilment of the predictions therein contained, he was ready to be judged. [Mr. C. then read the petition, which was of great length, remarking on the several passages as be pro ceeded. We have not space to give even a sketch of the petition or Mr. C.'e illustrative comments.] Id his peti tion, he said, he called on the House, with all possibb, speed, to pass a Bill, or Bills, having the effect folloWing : 1. To reduce the amount of taxes to the amount at which they stood in 1791. 2. To take from the revenue of the Church, from the Crown lands, and from mismanaged Cmwations and public cbarititw— (hear, hear)—whatever sum may Is wanted annually beyond Ihi. amount oT taxes of 1791. (Loud cries of bear.) 3. To make a just redectioa of the Interest of the Debt, corn mealy culled National.-(Hear) 4. To make a Radical Reform In the Honourable House, so that ' rite Members of that Hods* may be freely chosen by the peopk at large.—( Rear.) Mr. CossETT having argued at length the rights of the poor to relief from the land, asked whether they thought the 2s. 9d. tithe in the City of London could have been intended for the parson's pocket ? and whe tther they thought Reform would not compel that pro perty, which before contributed to the support of die ,poor, the Church,' and the Clergy, again to contribute to that Maintenance ? He concluded with saying, that there would not be reform, there could not be h small-paper money, and that their fears would not allow them to reduce the taxes. If they would only repeal .the Malt Tax, be should consider it equal to a blow ; ing up of the system. But no reduction would there be. The army they must have ; the army was necessary to the debt, and the debt was necessary to the tinily. The question wet, would' it tie allowed to take the system to 'pieces, or would it be suffered to .remain till it was Mocked to pieces ? It might be taken to pieces without giving alarm to any one. But do what they would, till there was a large reduction of taxation there tie . tir would he peace and tratiquillity.—(Heas, bear.) Mr. C. mentintiett that some time would digit* before h 6 could again address them . . On Sunday butt, a SOrm n-on *a tireaclied at the'Clitirelt ofSt. Peter, Vraltroith, by the ltre. Witnialellintittee; If 11. 'Aar the bened of the No)ei ifigromery **el, lb! Par. 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