Star. — London, England, 1812-06-20 00:00:00

i I of the Learned Gentleman. They had, he (Lord Cactlereagh) was happy to say, the confidence of their Prince, of their country (a I.tigh from the ON"' eition), and now, it appeared, of the Hon. Gentlemen opposite themselves. He felt no personal gratitude to the Honourable Gentlemn lir withdrawing his motion on Tuesday eveninf ; he could assure him, that unless he (Lord Cu! eteagh) had thought it an unworthy triumph, he should have pressed a divi. sion. (Hear, hear, anti a laugh.)— The misconceptions of the Hon. Gentleman in his present statement were such as could hardly be conceived to come from so clear a head ; but he would prefer to meet the Hon. Gentleman in argument r‘n di cuments rather than on misrepresented circumstances, some of which were picked up from perverted ciinveisations preten ded to be holden with himself.—( Hear, hear.)—lf persons to ould make reports of such conversations, and Membeis founded their statements upon them, all confidence u'is at an end. It would be better for Ministers to decline all communication with indivi duals. He trusted that the Acts of Government would be alloned to speak for themselves ; and after their appearance, he would be happy to meet the Hon. and Learned Gentleman in argument upon them. • Mr.PONSONBY asked when the documents would be produced ? Lord cAsTLEREAGH said, that what was not in existence could not be produced. The documents would appear on Saturday or Tuesday. Mr. PONSONBY.—. , The Noble Lord forms, perhaps, a vet y just estimate of my humble abilities .-.-but I can assure him it was not my intention to call for the production of that which has no existence." General GASCOYNE wished to know, what was the intention a f Government, as the exports and im ports %vete in suspence, waiting for the determination. Lord CAST LEREAGH thought it was better that men in trade i.hould look to the public acts of Government, than that they should rely on any loose conversation in that House. Mr. ROSE said, he merely wished to state, in re. ference to that part of the Learned Gentleman's speech which described the hopes of the London mer mints on the repeal, that he never in his life recol lected such a gloom in the City. Mi . . BROUGHAM said that was owing to the terms of the loan. Mr. ROSE said, none but the American merchants rej, iced at the rei cal. ttlr. EROUG HAM rose, but sat down again im meL trom cries ol—.• Spoke, spoke." B. RING urged the txtrente importance of decision, Is IlLn liundieds of houiands were interested in th•• Jesuit ; and insisted, at br•tat length, that the crummy would not he benefited by any half measure. Mr. WIi,BERFORCE suet, that concession shtuld be nude in such a liberal and sincere manner as srouid tend perfectly to exculpate this country, whatever line i 1 conduct might be pursued by Ame rica. Mr. CANNING said, there was great anxiety and pleat uncertainty pievaiiing on this important sub ject ; and it was advisable that some decisive mea. sole should he adopted. Again, if the Government were.cmittnt to give up any thing in principle, it shostlo be so dime as to produce most advantage.— It was de,irable that the act of our Government shiitild be so ciear, that the conduct of the President of the United Statts might be clearly and unequivo cally toideistoi d, in the course which he should adopt in pursuance of that act. The quesion for the Call next Thursday war then put, and carried wiaiiitila division. M. SliElilDAN'S EXPLANATION. - Mr. }. Fl I Z(JLRALD lose to imorm the House that he had been empoweied by a Noble Earl (Yar thouth) to express his sincere 'egret that he was pre cluded by a severe indisposition, which tonfined him {to his bed, ft om attending his duty in his place that day. He (Lord Yarmouth) ccutd have wished to have been present, from the nature of tLe discussion, to answer any questions which might have been put to him, and he did express a hope that the question might be deterred, but the Right lion. Gentleman seeming alai( us to persevere', he ciccreeti it cue to his own honour, and due to the House, to express the regret he telt at being abst nt, an absence which no thing but inevitable necessity cculd have caused. Mr. SHERIDAN.—" 1 can vouch, Sir, for the truth of all which the Hon. Gentleman has stated ; I called upon the Noble Lord in my way down to the House, and I saw, with regret, that it was im possible he could be present. I did also state to him, that as I c o nsidered that part of the question which related to our conversation, as a mere mareinal thing, nothing but an episLde, in respect to %%bat I was most anxious to lay heore the House, I would abstain from it altogetlicr.—;and having said thus much, I shall proceed to explain my motives for the motif n which 1 intend to make. . .. _ Sir, passing by with a single word, this fact, that whatever misapprehension may have arisen in the public mind upon my conduct, there has been none between me and the Noble Lord, 1 shall hasten to the assertion of my Right Hon. Friend, that I ut terly disbelieved any such resignation as that of the Household was in contemplation; and that in addi tion, as a clencher, I offered to make a bet with him. [Here Mr. Tierney said no, it was not with him.] Well then, that I offered to make a bet with some body, or with any body—(a laugh)—of five hundred guineas upon the subject. Now, Sir, there is some thing unlikely upon the face of this story, of this offer of mine to bet with him, with every body, or with any body; I, who never bet with any body, ror ever play for a single guinea. I wish he had said that I offered to stake the money, and then I am sure nobody would have -believed it—(Loud laughter from' all rider.) However, I'll not cavil about it— I'll give him this £5OO bet, that is, I'll not give him the money,but give him the bet—(lataghier.) 'At the sane time, if every loose word that is uttered Itt the mornent—”as for example—a friend says to me, the Household are going to resign—l reply, I'll bet you five hundred guineas they do not—if every casual expression like this is to be brought down to the House, and made a subject of grave accusation (Hear, hear), .1 protest I shall take care how I an swer to a friend who meets me in St. James's-street, and says, How do you do ?—(laugh)—l'll take three minutes to consider of my reply ; and even 'then, shall be shy of answering, unless a witness is by who • to down w ds a of they fail from my Ilps-e-(laugliter.) However, I will concede look for strength Or public confidence in such an to t.im the fact, that I did say, I'll bet you 500 Administration. He did not like coalitions between pounds the Household will nor resign—five shillings men of conflicting opinions. Looking to a man whom would have been more likely—(a laugh)—but why he loved more than he bad ever loved, or ever could did I say it ? My Right Honourable Friend said to love any other political charaCter—one of the greatest me, I hear the Household are going to resign ; I re- and best men whom this country had ever seen, and plied, I did not believe it. And why did 1 not be- whose loss the country had nhow so much cause to Be lieve it, I had never heard a syllable about the inter- plore—he meant Mr. Fox ; he could not hut regret tints of the Household, till the Noble Lord himself more than any other act o that Hon. Gentleman's told it to me—and when my Right Honourable life, his coalition with Lord North, believing, as he Friend spoke to me, I knew that resignation was con- did, that the mind of the country had never recovered tingent upon a circumstance which, at the moment from that shock, as far as his Right Hon. Friend of the bet, was more remote from taking place than was concerned. He was of opinion, that another ever. Is that an intelligible answer ? But now, having coalition, which it was attempted to bring about be answered him, let me ask a question in my turn, of tween the same Right Hon. Gentleman and another the Right Honourable Gentleman ? Did I riot ex- of his political opponents (Mr. Pitt), would also have press my surprise to him, that any thing could have done much mischief; and impressed with this idea, arisen to•interrupt the Negociations that were then he had done all in his power to support the Noble taking place?—And the answer of my R ight Hon. Lord- (Sidmouth) against their united attacks. He Friend was, that the Noble Lords required that Lad had done so, from hnding in all the measures and Moira should obtain from the Prince Regent full conduct of that Noble Lord, and from what he had power to consult with them individually in the for- uniformly observed in him, that he was impressed mation of a new Administration. Earl Moira wrote with a conviction of doing right.—(A laugh.)—He to the Noble Lords a Setter, dated June 3, in which was sorry to see what he had said as to this Noble he offered a renewal of the Negocations, and on the Lord received with a sneer. The Noble Lerd alluded evening of that day, I had the honour of meeting to had done more to re-establish the finances—more my Right Honourable Friend (Mr. Ponsonby) at to increase the force of the country—and more to the Duke of Bedford's. He said to me, we hear, revivify the Constitution, then in a most exhausted Sheridan, that you are of opinion the Negociatioa state, than any Minister we had had for many years. can be renewed between Earl Moira and Lords Grey (A laugh ).—He should like to hear what he stated and Grenville :—We do not think so. I answered, disproved rather than answered by a sneer. In speak perhaps the difference of opinion arises from Earl ing of the formation of the Administration, he could Moira's letter being inaccurately worded ; but that not help remarking, that the House of Commons on there was one thing which I knew, and which they one day, by a majority of two, found that the then could not dispute with me, and that was the sincere i. Administration was not fit, and then, on a subsequent intention of Lord Moira to renew the Negociations. day, declared their competency by a majority of 125; For next day but one after that, Lord Moira wrote yet these Ministers had, during the interval, acquired a minute in the presence of the Duke of Ledford, no new strength. To what then could he attribute which he sent to Lords Grey and Grenville, and in this change of sentiment, if it was not owing to use the evening when I met the Duke of Bedford, he House and•the Country being against the conduct of told me, I was right in my assertion, as to the sincere those with whom the negociation had been going on ?' intention of Lord Moira to renew the Negociations. He thought the House might have been satisfied On the sth. I certainly did communicate to Lord with one vote on such a, subject. Even one inter- Moira what it was that Lords Grey and Grenville ference in a question of that kind was a strong mea expected, which the Noble Earl thought conclusive, sure. There was but a thin partition between neg.'. and broke off the business. tieing and nominating in such cases as those, and he 64 I sincerely regretted this termination of the af- thought that the second attempt had, too, the appear fair, and immediately sent an express into the cowl- ance of the wish to usurp the power of nominating to try to my Honourable Friend on my right (Mr. the Prince Regent the individual persons who should Whitbread.) When he came to town, I commu- be his Ministers. • He felt regret that the negociation nicated upon the subject with my Lord Erskine, for the formation cf an efficient Administration, corn-, steting that I did not think the answer of the Noble prehending the two Noble Lords alluded to, had . Lords conclusive, as to the breaking off the Negoci. tailed; but when it had so failed, he did wish that an ation altogether. We met at Lord Erskine's : Lord attempt l• ad been made to form an Administration with- Erskine put the question to my Hon. Friend, it he out them,andstillwithout resorting to the former men. thought the Negociation was conclusively broken off This, he thought, might have been done by bringing by the answer of the Noble Li ids ? He replied he forward something fresh and new ; and he could not did not—and that instant die Noble Earl wrote to the but think that it was a libel on the public ; that it -Prince Regent to obsein the power iequisrd by the was lowering the country ; to hold that there was Noble Lords. I n.ust add, that I found, with the nothing but those two parties from which an Admi. deepest regret, next day, that the negociation had nistration could be formed. He regretted that no ne been once more broken off upon that sine qua non, the gociation of this kind could be carried on without this dismissal of the Household. I did not conceive it two parties thinking that they were set against each possible, when they did meet, but that the Negocia. other ; and that the communications which passed Lion would have been brought to a successt el issue, and on the subject must all be submitted to the public.— the first I heard of its failure was on Mcnsley, the Bth Such publications were to the disadvantage of this ofJune, when a friend asking me what was to be done country, and to the encouragement of the enemy.— in the House ? I replied, nothing, but moving for a He wished an embargo could be laid upon them, so new wi it in the place of Mr. Canning, and he told me that they might not get abroad, and tl:at it might not that Lord Liverpool was app intcd Prime Minister. appear, at a period when we ought to be united Mee, Sir, I wish to offer a few words upon what I against the enemy, that we were so =pie:yeti. He said the other night, that it my advice had been follow- concluded by moving an humble Address to the ed, not one of the Right Honourable and Honourable Prince Regent, praying that he would be pleased to Gentlemen oppo ire, would he sitting in their places. order that there be laid bethre the House, such official i I hope they did not consic!er that as springing from documents as had been laid before his Royal High. any personal aeimosity towards them: I protest to ness relative to the formation ef a new Administra- Gen, it was no such thing, for I hive a personal re- Lion in consequence of the Address of the House d as seect and esteem for them all—neither was 1 influ- tar as his Royal Highness was of opinion they might erred by the vote of this House, by which they had, with propriety be laid before Parliament. as it were, been cashiered. My objection to them was, Lord It. SEYMOU It stated, that not only were that they were avowedly arrayed and embodied his Noble relatives and himself determined to have against a principle of concession to the Catholics of resigned the r situations in the Household, but they Leland, %%hick I think, and must always think, es. took the greatest pains to publish their determination. siestial to the safety of this Empire—el/car, hear* He assured the House he might greatly strengthen this &elm etion it he were to appeal to Gentlemen to I will never give my vote to any administration that whom this determination him been communicated. oppoStS the question of Catholic emancipation ; I wail not console to receive a furlough upon that p ar . He entered his protest against quoting Members of t ticuler question, even demi s ts a Ministry were carry hat House for opinions or expressions loosely.gieen them in conversation out of it. It was not by such ing every other that I wished. 1 could wish to see by negociation e means as these that Gentlemen were likely to improve rtercd upon with fairness and sincerity , tee aids the Catholics, with concessions on both sides, either the debates in that House, or private conver so as to make it popular in this country, and that no I sation. Nu man felt greater pleasure than lie did in , alarm may be created. lam not one of those who the speeches of the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. 'Tierney), but that pleasure must be greatly &mi. would grant absolute unconditional concessions to the Catholics; let proper guards and securities be pro. , niched it the subject was to be the conversation of two b sided, end let negociation be comm.-need with them brothers, of whom he was one, as to the conduct of upon a basis of sincerity ; but my doubt is, that this their third brother. It the Right Hon. Gentleman I had had such information as that with which he had negotiation cannot be carried on by those, who in their hearts are hostile to the cause. Proposels from such favoured the House, communicated to him by him will never be adequately received by the Catliclics ; ( third R. Seymour) person fly, lie was certain he but if they proceed from persons, whose intentions would not have thought it fit that he should make it they knew to be fair and open, without any trick or ',a subject of discussion in the House ; and hearing it, freed, then we should see them met with correspond. as he did, at second hand, he thought the Right Ho ing fah ness and integrity. • I nourable Gentleman might have doubted the troth of ccMr.Sheridan assured the Right Hon. Gentle- ! it. In establishing his main point, however the Right men opposite, that in using the expression alluded to, Hon. Gentleman had forgotten what was due to he had meant no disrespect or incivility to them. He him (Lord R. Seymour) and his brother. addressed himself more particularly to the Noble Mr. TIERNEY said he was rather in an un- Lord (Castlereagh), and trusted that lie wculd agree pleasant situation, as he felt an impression had been with him, that the sooner the claims of the Irish Ca. made on the mind of the Noble Lord, that someteing tholics could now be granted the better. When it .had fallen from him in a former debate, which was seen that Ministers were giving up other things was beyond the usual line of courtesy observed in to which they were as much pledged, as they had that House. He assuree the Noble Lord, that in ever been to resistan:e to the Catholic claims—that what he had said, or might say on the subject they had conceded-the point relative to the Barracks alluded to, he was actuated by no personal dis -that they had agreed to a suspension of the Orders respect to the Noble Lord, or to the Noble Marquis. in Council—whim they were seen to have yielded in Neither was he aware that he ha, exceeded in any these respects, he hoped they would not make the measure the usual courtesy of the House.. He did Catholic question the only exception, but would give not volunteer the statements -he had made ; they it up also. If the Noble Lord and his Colleagues were forced from him. A Noble Lord not now were content to do all the paltry and minute business present ( Yarmouth) made a speech which had, or of office, and to adopt all the suggestions of those seemed to have, a great effect on the House, from who were generally described as their opponents, he the triumphant cry with which it was received— confessed that he, for one, could not figure a more and by which it seemed to be imagined that the I complete coalition. It was impossible that his Right failure in the late overtures was attributable to Lords, Honourable Friends on the side of the House on Grey and Grenville, who had shewn a disposition to which he sat could object to such a mode of pro. extort humiliating concessions froth the Prince Re ceedieg ; and the country must surely, at length: con- gent. The speech of the Noble Lord went boldly fess, that they had got a most broad-bottomed Admi- to assert, that it WAS and must have been known , nistration. When Gentlemen talked of a strong and' that the Chamberlain and Deputy Chamberlain, &c. vigorous Administration, he conceived that they must were willing to resign, but that the two Noble Lords, mean an Administration composed of men who drew not contented with this,' insisted on their removal ; ; together, and concurred in great leading principles ; and that this intention on the part of the Members ofl' but wleen a n Administration was composed of per, the Houshold had beta communicated to his Ritelet sons who entertained contradictory opioions, how- Honourable Frieuel near him (Mr. Sheridan). Bang - - • _ , 10•_i _••• • • / . _ titularly to one of them) from his earliest childho no the observations he had then made were forces' f oil him, and he having been brought in contact aii.h Right Honourable Friend, and having understnoe from him that such was not the impro,sio a 0 ,0 4 wind, this naturally led him to what had beta statements of the two brothers ; one of wiom, it rr a , stated, had, on ,the Thursday, distinctly said th at they were to resign ; and the other directly therein' s*. —la stating these circumstances to the kits Ise, i t hoped be had thrown out ts) imp utation on e i t h eref the two brothers—nor had he been guilty of azy breach of private confidence. He then came to s i te question he had put to his Right Hon. Friend, r 2 Friday, the sth of this month, whe-her he had a rt information on this subject, or did believe the faet4 their intention to resign ? His answer was—a r ,4 though he had, as usual, succeeded in treating d 4.11 subject with pleasantry, he had not been able t o gainsay a word of it—that he would bet 500gui neli that no such thing was in contemplation. if his Right Honourable Friend would not admit that dts was so, then he (Mr. Tierney) must concede him se lf to have been in error, but still must vindicate hi m . self against the charge of betraying private friend. ship. His Right Honourable Friend must ha ve known, that to have betted 500 guineas with him (Mr. Tierney) would have been alasurd ; and of course the wen ds wiere used only in common parlance; but he must still say he had fairly quoted the wa r d s of his Right Honourable Frieni, and if they g ave offence to any one he was sorry for it. After cone. dera.tion, he thought he had found nut a way of rr , conciling both stories, but he did not think it neon. nary to trouble the House with doing so. His Rift Hon. Friend might not think that it was their intender to resign.—( Mr. Sheridan here distented.)— rim It w is mistaken, and had to apologise fur having ini s kd the House. He wished, however, tint being thrust, r to learn from his Right Hun : Friend what he dd mean, because the wager was admitted ? (gar, har.) He hoped he had now set him,clf right with the - Noble Lord, and that he had done nothing unbecoming* Gentleman. All he wished was to st.t the two Noble Lords (Grey and Grenville) free from the daunt Much had been raised against them, and N hare it establit.hed and admittell that they never had ay communication made to them, that any such resit nations as these in question were in contemplitice, • He now came to the qu...btichis put to him by his Right Honour.ible hrießi. It: (Mr. l'i:rner) did not ask for any such authority twin Earl tiiiiralo Lords Grey and Grenville, as that winch his Right . Honourable Friend's question implied. His Right Honourable Friend asked him, what would satisfy Lords Grey and Grenville ? to whi,:ll his answer V7lsl but not from authority, that ma . ters should be coa• .tucted in the old established way, namely, by the Crown giving authority to some one person to go to the tormati:tn of a new AdminisLration—and in illus. tration of his meaning, inst.:raced the authority given by his Majesty, about eight years ago, to Mr. Pitt. He contended, that the removal from the Offices of the Household was not a preliminary stipulation by the two Noble Lords ( Grey and Grenville) with Lord Moira—but a preliminary question put by them to that Noble Lord, which having been answered in the nega• tive, there was then an end of the matter, and thew. gotiation broke off. If Earl Moira had said he had an, thorLy to that effect, then the negotiation w uld have gone on, and neither they nor his Royal Highnus would have known that any such thing had passed. As to the contents of the paper, to which his Right Rm. Friend objected, be (Mr. Tierney) knew nothing d them. On the former day on which his Right Ha nourable Friend brought forward the present ques. tion, he professed himself to be a friend to tiie liberty, or even the licence of the press ; and k appeared that he made only one objection to this rule, and that vas t so far as it extended to himself. His Right Honour. able Friend then gave them a great deal of theCathobe question. Then he expressed his dislike at minims, though he seemed to be more than usuaily fond d them, when he proposed a coalition between Gentle. men on the side of the House on which he sad, ea 4 Gentlemen on tile opposite side of the Mous!. Be then proceeded to pass an eulogium on Lord Sid. mou•li, and boasted of the support he had given W that Noble Lord's Administration. He (Mr. rif . ney) did not recollect of his Right Honourable Friend ever giving a vote in support of that Administratiews though he recollected well that he willingly sneered at them ; and particularly that he once applied a translation of an Epigram t.f Martial to the Noble Lord.—(4 laugh)—He could conceive no other per' Lose for which his Right Honourable Friend. bad brought fora and the present motion, except that it if. forded him an opportunity of expressing his disappro bation of the conduct of the two Noble Lords, Grey and Grenville, who, however, he (Mr. Tierney) coo. tended could have acted no other way than they had done. As it was, the Gentlemen opposite were coo tinued in the Administration for want of betters and, as had been observed to him the other night II one c f their friends, they might say, I think we sbsl now live happily and contentedly together. Ya carry all the questions ; we keep all the places. Mr. SHERIDAN explained. Mr. PONSONBY declared, if the letter alluded to by his Right Hon. Friend as letter by wild' Earl Moira wished to renew the nisociation, wag really Meant for that purpose, the words of the kiwi did not express that meaning, though indeed the wa• 4 gociation was afterwards renewed, He hear* concurred in the propriety of the line of coorls adopted by Lords Grey and Grenville. If they boa agreed to come into office on the terms proposed' for one, would not have consented to hold AO gin'tk nor ander them. Mr. MARTIN (of Galway) said, the Cads& of Ireland would as soon accept of emancipation Iron; the present as from any other Administration, , Mr. WHITBREAD confirmed the,. staseehtt ar Mr. Sheridan, as to the facts to which be was sofa to have been privy ; and declared that the ;reel anxiety had been shewn by his Right Hon. fry througk the whole of the negociation, as tar al R . ur had an opportunity of observinge that Lords (k 4 and Grenville should form part of the Admingstr m tion. He (Mr, Whitbread) went out of town tief° l , l thne hisciationopwinasiopn on utan th e e n s d u t b o. ject H of e i h ts adr ll 7 expressed but did not think it necessary to press Oa; wrm" ors. the House. • Mr. SHERIDAN in reply expreaawd • o • IN