Star. — London, England, 1813-05-14 00:00:00

11114111111•111 i%l R 517 . 2. PiIRLMMEN HOUSE Their Lordships met it meaty Peerage. when, of th.- timber consideration 'I he Earl of DER EN El( NKIN F. from the Mir And from I.l.lteard, In Cu !.rd and tither parts of ti rally praying fro? permissit 0-taiure shruld adopt re Mons for the promotion at that country. 'The Noble Lords, ER S observe. il3 reference to ti that they were bY no m thew full and unqualified by w Welt they were sum a „4 applauded ; but if the site their aims by any oast %ion, and the mikl introdu lA, into the minds and u slitt. or were not to lie at yernowni established to I • . • 44. t) • -Ikl t••• • . •• 6 • 4 ' t a gf p* ' • • •. )S. • K eAk_2 —• • ... • .t., • ii or. ': I~ . ~ VRIDAY, MAY 14, 1813. sixigidici-RALPpinditt iIRLMMENTARr PROCEEDINGS. besides tome of the defaulters t °bid, on that dey, be taken into custody. After few observations from Lord MILTON an& Mr. PONSONSV, the Right Hon. Gentleman consented to let the motion for calling over the 'tames of de f:tukers stand for a more distant day, but positively fixed the Call of the House for Monday. HOUSE OF LORDS, MAY Is. teir Lordships met in a committee of Privileges on the XII • Peerage. when, after the examination of some witnesses, Cher consideration was postponed tolls!. day st'nnight. Earl of DERBY procured (corn . • Warrington, Lord lira. from the MitAitntary Society in Jotpthsn, Irons Bath, Dm I.rskeard, In Cornwall, and Earl GREY from Sunder* Id other parts of the County of Durham. Petitions, seve traying fee permission, tinder whatever regulations the Im re should adopt respecting India, to send out proper per tr the propagation awl extension of Christian khowledge in untry. • Noble Lords, ERSKINE and GREY, took occasion to .. iu reference to the prayer and objects of those petitions, try were be no means prrpared to accord with them in 111 and unqualified event. "Ile laudable and pious zeal they were suggested the Noble Lords acknowledged lauded but it the petitioners expected permission to per. tr aims by any other means than the influence of persua aid the mikl introduction of the sacred truths of the Got t() the minds and understandings cut the inhabitants of I STATE OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. Sir J. C. H&PPISLEY said, the humonrous and elNuent flights of a Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Canning), though they had operated against the motion which he had the honour of proposing on a former night, should not deter hint from continu ing to give the House all the information in his power concerning the state of the Catholic Church. For that purpose he would move4iThat copies of let tersconcerningthe Portuguesegovernment,the Spanish Government, the Resolutions of the Catholic Bisilops of Dublin, in 1799. should be laiti before the House." Lord CASTLEREAGH interrupted theWoohy I;laronet, and said ) be am:cipated a most vo t lumiabus collection of documents. from the motion which lie had proposed...possibly it would be better to give notice of a motion on the subject. . Sir J. C. HIPPISLEY said, be was only desirous of making the House acquainted with the relation. ship of Foreign Governments to the See of Rome.— He would move for these documents on Monday. werr not to be at all times strictly amenable to the ; Go. .rnownt established in India, who might, on proper occasions, eve n order them back to Eunpe, they co uld 'by no meow amp pun prtitintl•. lord ERAK.INE moved, that there be laid before the House copies of certain minutes taken before the Court of East India Directors the 16th of August, 1797. upon India Affairs, and of a letter from Mr. Grant to the Court.—Ordered. vi C ti Li his as ver the ~,,i.h ~ ~_ e, vo° )01 1 1, 114 Ifi' s g .b. ............... ally Mr. Lushinyton, Alderman Shaw, and others, brought up (rum the Cloll4llll/1111, the East Smithfield Improvement Norwich Union, the Hope, and the Eagle Insurance bUs, and several Private B-1 1s, which were read the first dnie. Colonel Oriel, and other Members front the ColetSone, brought up a Message, requesting permission that Lord Rade,. dale might br examined in a Committee of that House, en the subject of a PO4IOII from the SIX Clerks of the Court of Chan cery in Ireland. Permission was accordingly granted in the usoul form. The Offices Brokerage BEI went through a Committee, and was ordered to be rept:oriel On the first reading of the Norwich Union Insurance VI, Lord REDESDAI.E expressed Lis objection to it, as claiming for 3 private society the privileges ref a Corporation ; and whereby, in use of Bankruptcy, the public creditor must be deprived of ins proper security. On the suggestion of the I.ORD CHANCELLOR, the re_ sewed consideration of the Borthwick *Peerage was fixed fur Tuesday next at five o'clock.—Adjouroed. HOUSE OP COMMONS. The Arroenev Ocroea*L took theoeths and his seat. 1 be Americarr "Prise Iftll went through a Committeeohe Re port of which was ordered to be received to-morrow. A Petitinn was presented from Cardigan, praying that the !rouse would not endanger the Protestant Establishment, by the concessions aLout to be tu:de to the Catholiu.—Ordeecd to lie on the table. Mr. lERNEY, in the name of an Honourable Ft haul of Ms (Mr. Lyt tlettin), who was confined by severe indisposition, Inti mated, that his Honourable Friend would, if practicable, submit to the Fittuhe, on the flrst open day In the week eter next, the nutt•on, of which he bad given noticei ' , dative to the Conduct of the War in America. A Message wag sent to the Lords, !evening that their Lord ships would grain leave to Baron Reds:Wile 16 attend the Cow an tt4 e of the lloase of Com n ions, em the Stamp Duties of Ireland. 1 be tecynd reeding of the lrish Selling* Bill was postpones' to :\ It mcLiy. The Election Repletion MU was raid a second time, and et:.t. faro forma, through a Committee. '1 be Report WAS re c,ved, ordered to be taken into turther consideration on Weds trs ; and the 13111,4 emended, V/11.4 o dered to be printed. 1 Its: Vs'ait Couveyatice bill was read a second time, and or dered to be committed on Wednesday. The Debenture Bill went through a Committee, the report of vh;ch was ordered to be received to-rnwrow. Lord MIL*I ON presented 24 Petitions from Yorkshire, pray. lag that su eve of the renewal of the East Todia Company's Char fee, regulations might be made for the propagation of the Gos pel in hulta.—Ordered to lie on the table. Lord BARNARD presented a similar Petition from Durham, and Mr. PRO I HEROE another from the t 1 esleylan Metho dists, which were ordered to lie on the table. Mr. D. GIDDY obtained leave to brirg in a Bill for the pur pose of obtainipg accurate returns of the number of persons com mitted :or trial in England at.d Walt s, the account of their con victions, &c. Ihe ti74.rnmittee on the Irish I tides Bill was postponed to this day ii'ntight, and the Ship Owt.i rs lteliet Bill till Tuesday. FOREIGN SIX A It. The House having iesolved itself into a Committee ou the Acts respecting the Duties on Sugar, The CHANCELLOR of .the EXCHEQUER proposed Resolutions, permitting the importation of sugar trom the conquered colonies, on the payment ofa duty larger than that imposed on British planta tion sugar, by the amount of ss. a cwt. in some casesvand 12s. Bd. in others. He observed, that the present supply from the British Colonies was insuffi cient for the demand ; and that the continuance of the proposed permission would be only co-existent with the necessity. Mr. ELLIS observed, that he should not oppose the Resolution, as the duration of it was to be limit ed. He guarded himself, however, against ,the in ference of acquiescing in a policy which, it persevered in, would be destructive of the interests of the British Colonies. Mr. AtARRYAT conceived that some small aim ratior.s were necessary in the Resolution. Mr. BARING said,. the Government would do yell to reflect on the policy which France pursued towards her plantations before they determined to Adopt any measure concerning their own. Mr. ELLIS made a brief explanation. Mr. AIARRYAT said, so late as last Tuesday, the Importers had not more than twoliundred hogs. Leafs of Plant:Won Sugar in their possession. Mr. BA IMAM lamented that the West India Merchants had heretofore been prevailed against by e:r.ry body who entered into competition against t!. -.!:r. Fur these ten years they had been compara ...dy in a state of • ruin , and had sometimes not ra. More than one shilling per cent. on their aluzev. After a f ew w o rds from Mr. W. DUNDAS. the Re %.• , azaJn was agreed to, the Chair re&umed, and the crdc..c‘: to be brought up tomorrow. CALL OF TliF HOLUM M r. RYDER fox the purpose of insuring a rclles attendance of the Members of the House, he :41.tged late to intimate his determination of letting "., motion of the Call of the house', stand for Mon `Ll. to vakich day it had been postponed. He would Pru Pose, that the names of defaulters should on :ta t U.,) he called over. Tht 11 1:-.X1i.E4 informed the Right Hon. Gen. `'""alt twat such a ceurso would-he _altogether new, CATHOLIC EMANCIPATION. Mr. GRATTAN moved the Order of the Day for the second reading of the Bill for the Relief of the Irish Roman Catholics. Dr. DUIGENAN said, this was a 10 the red. storation of the Catholic Religion, and he might say, the Pope also, sued for by the Catholics themselves, and supported by the Petitions of misty who caN t l themselves Protestants. The Right Hoe. Mover of the Bill had presented a Petition from three thousand Protestants of Ireland, in favour of the 414 while, on the other hand, Petitions from 1 111 :asil country, signed by more than one hundred thousand respectable Protestants, had been presented against it. To the first of these Petitions, and which prayed for unconditional emancipation, he saw the signatures of many most respectable Gentlemen ; but these, he was sorry to say, were associated with the names of some of those revolutionary persons who had formerly trou bled the Government of their native country. The scheme which the Bill proposed to carry into execu tion appeared to be the same which was projected by James the Second, when he was ambitious of intro ducing the Catholic Religion into England, and which was endeavoured to be supported from the fal lacious arguments of conciliation. James, in the pur suit *of his favourite measure, lost his Crown, and that too from evils which were likey to be created again by the present measure. How then could this latter scheme be a just one ? If James was unjustly de throned, the person who succeeded hint was unjustly . ' crowned : what then became of his present Majesty's title ?—The scheme, however, seemed to be but little understood by the House ; and he would proceed to spew them, from the religious principles of the lit). man Catholics, that all idea of conciliation was fal lacious, and that their tenets could not be rela:ed, abated, mollified, or changed. They held it in their decrees as unchangeable doctrine, to hold no faith with heretics, but exterminate them by all means in their power. They venerated that denunciation like the sacred Scriptures—with them it seas immutable and fixed. The present Professor of Divinity in the College of Maynooth held, that the decrees of the Pope, when not dissented from by the Dish )ps, were equally binding as an Act of Council. He would, therefore, call the attention of the House to these acts of Council, which were decreed to be unchange able. The first Council of_Lateraa, which was held in the year 1215, decreed, that when any temporal Lord or Prince denied the supremacy of the Pope, their subjects were to be absolvel from their oath of allegiance, and other Princes were commanded to conquer their territories and rep in their stead.— That early decree was held by the Catholics of the present day to be as immutable as the word of Gob; and their inability to the task alone prevented them from fulfilling it—(if harsh.) When the Bishops were consecrated, they swore to obey St. Peter, and the Pope, and the Church of Rome—to prevent any en croachments on the regality of St. Peter, and which they were by all lawful means to defend, augment, and promote. Part of that oath, (if he might credit the bare assertion of Dr. Troy,) was dispensed with by the application of the Empress of Russia : be that circumstance as it might, he begged the 1 iouse to hold that oath ill their mind, when they proceeded to consider the principles of the Dill; and they might also reflect upon an oath of a similar kind taken by. the Clergy, and which was the strongest oath of alle giance that human ingenuity could devise. He next ,came to consider the decrees of the Council of Con stance, which were touched upon by the Theological Professor of Maynooth, in the lectures which he gave to his pupils. That Council was held from 1441 to 1418, and John Huss and Jerome of Prague were declared and treated as heretics, and all oaths and obligations with such persons were declared null and void, inasmuch as they might be prejudicial to the Church. Such being the Decrees of the Council of Constance, he proceeded next to the Council of Trent, which commenced during the year 1545, and conti nued till 1563. They confirmed the Decrees of the preceding Council, and prepared a compendium of the Decrees of the Council of Lateran, which a Lear ned Gentleman some years ago declared to be a most valuable regulation. They professed not to burn the heretics; for the Church never shed blood—they only turned them over to the secular arm, which finished 'what the Church had begun. The House would perceive that the Catholics admitted the supremacy of a foreign Potentate, from whom it was impossible to remove a great share of spiritual power ; never theless they refused to have the oath of supremacy • administered 'to them by the Government of their own country, determining rather to have no privi. leges,,svhatevet, than procure them by such a cour se . Thit refusal they made use of to shew their great vene ration for an oath ; but really he did not perceive how they had any reason to be so scrupulous ; for the oaths which they took with heretics the Pope had de clared were not binding; and besides, they knew that they were not permitted to keep them, because the decree which he had already mentioned released them from all such bonds. They valued Decrees according to their antiquity, and to forsake a point of ancient faith was esteemed a mortal an. Their slavery to the Pope was an open, notorious, undeni able doctrine, for he had with his own hand extracted it from their books of theology. The people were slaves to their Clergy, the Clergy were slaves to their Bishops, the Bishops in their turn were slaves to the Pope, and the Successor of St. Peter was himself be come the slave of Bonaparte ! This conqueror had declared, (according to the Moniteur) sometime dur ing the year 1809, that it was unsafe to allow any foreign Bishop to have any influence in his dotni salons, fur they had employed their spiritual power to injure him; and he conceived that the spiritual Superiority of a foreign Prince was hurtful to die glory of France. Such was iionapartes opinion concerning spiritual influence; and he had since , decreed, that the Pope should live is France, from whence he would not suffer him to depart.— Now the present Bill. took no notice of that influence, l there were no restrictions proposed to be pliced on , Romish Bishops or on Romish Priests. It would be of more use to Bonaparte to have the Bill pasted ; than the overthrow of armies on the Continent, for he would be able to overcome the nation by it. He would cause his pensioned Pope to nominate what Bishops he pleased; these Bishops held the Clergy in subjection, who, in their turn, swayed the people, and all would go well for our enemies. Bonaparte, however, took upon himself the nomination of Bishops, and he had taken care that they should not ordain a single Priest who was not recommended by the Prefect of the province. In England they were desirous to place the Pope on one side of the Throne, and make him as it were a partner in the Govern ment, and confer upon Catholics the highest honours of the land. A manual had beat read to the House which forbade lying and swearing, but that was be tween Catholic and Catholic ; he apprehended it ex tended not to their connexions with heretics. It had been represented in a late publication concerning the imprisonment of the Pope, that he rejected with vio lence the proposal of Bonaparte to tolerate heretics ; this was a fair specimen of the feeling of his Holi ness to a Protestant people. The Riglit Hon. Gen tleman (Mr. Canning) who amused the House by his eloquence, his wit, and his humour, though on a subject not to be laughed at, had mentioned that Mr. Pitt entertained designs of conciliating the Ca. tholics, but as Mr. Pitt had never proposed any ' measure for that purpose, be hoped - no Gentleman would in future amuse himself with endeavours to unravel that wonderous Statesman's designs : such a design was contrary to the tenor of his life, and to suppose it was an insult to his memory. The Ca tholics had exaggerated their numbers for the purpose of intimidation, and they had succeeded with some. They stated that Ireland contained five millions of Catholics, whereas he was positive the whole popu lation did not amount to more than four millions ; and they represented that it cost twenty millions of money annually to support the Church Establish-, ment, which was transmitted out of the country to absentees who were the bloodsuckers of the nation. I Now the accurate calculation of the church revenue was £Bl,OOO annually. Sometimes they forgot their riches and complained of their abject poverty ; ; again they pretended that the first fruits amounted to £20,000, but being a Member of the Board him self, he could assure the House, that they only amounted to £4OO. He admitted that many Irish men were in the army and navy, but the life of a common soldier was easy and comfortable compared to the life of a labourer, and it was impossible for the priests to prevent them from enlisting ; if the Bill passed not one recruit'more would be raised. Not more than one-eighth of the army and navy were Ca tholics, and part of these were not Irishmen. The Pope never enjoyed much power as a temporal so vereign, it was his spiritual powers that made him formidable, and now under the influence of Bona parte, lie was more dangerous than ever. He con templated nothing but danger in the subversion of the present laws, and when the Catholics were ad mitted to power, there was little to prevent them from pulling down the bulwark of the Constitution. By these means, elections would fall into the hands of the meanest of the populace, for a peasant with an acre of ground for which he paid a heavy acknow ledgment called himself a freeholder. In the midst of his little field he constructed a hovel, called a cabin in his own country, three sides of which were mud, and the fourth the side of a deep dry ditch.— The roof was rushes, with a round hole through which the smoke ascended, and in the front wall was another hole, called a window, stopped with hay during she night and removed at the approach of morning ; such was the habitation of the freeholder. By these subdivisions 11,000 freeholders had been created, where formerly there were no more than 400. After the pausing of the Bill sixty Catholic Members would be returned from Ireland, and thirty would join them in England ; they would stick to gether like a cluster of bees, and propose to assist the Minister in his motions, providing that he would be liberal to them ; then they would lay hold of all the Irish offices, and establish themselves. In 1809, the Catholics, at a Synod held at Tulloch, in Ireland, by an unanimous Resolution, approved of that Bull of the Pope which confirmed the elevation of Bonaparte to the Imperial Crown of France, where by they acknowledged that usurper as Sovereign of France, to the exclusion of its lawful King, and sanctioned a system which deprived all those inhabi tants of France of their estates who would nut submit to the new order of things. This was not a conceits of religion, but stri act of disleyaltt to their King. What right had they to signify their approbation l• that Bull? It bad been argued, that as the electiv franchise bad been given to them, they ought also get the representative franchise. He should contend that the argument was altogether the other way Ithat if it would b e d ang e rous to t h e C onst i tut i i I to grant them the representative franchise, that vers a reason why the elective should be taken away fro ' them. 'What right had they to acknowledge the so premacy of any foreign Power ? If we wer e ode n ' Lion, the people in both countries ought to be p " in this respect on the same terms. Tile Acts which it was pro sed proposed to repeal by the Bill ; were the 1 and sth of El and commonly iz ath called , the 25 the Corporation th °f. Charles, ani alsti h Act.-- But he would contend that the Regent was bound to preserve all these Acts. The Regent acted as true: tee for the King, and every Gentleman who heard I him knew well what was the kinws b opinion upon thii I I subject. In such circumstances, therefore, the Re gent being equally acquainted With it, was bound to do all that his Father would do to preserve these lActs, which were so e s senti al to the Constitution..... It teas idle to g that , If the two other branches i • of the Legislature should agree to the measure, the i Sovereign would be bound to assent to it That Iwould be to make a cypher of the king; for dad 1 Houses of Parliament have no power to dispense . with the obligation of the Coronation Oath. Thi Hon. and Learned Gentleman then took a review of the arguments of a Learned Gentleman opposite (Mr. Plunkett), ridiculing the nature of the Corpo, ration Oaths ; and opposed to his authority the opia nion of a great Constitutional Lawyer, in the reign of William and Mary, when it was proposed to re. peal the 30th of Charles 11. It was laid down then, that the Romanist: ought to be contented with the protection of their persons and properties, and that if that Act were to be repealed, it would be attended with danger to the State. He had already adverted to the Oath of Allegiance, wbich contained a declara tion, that the Pope had no power in ternporals. But that doctrine was contrary to the decisions of their Councils, and must therefore be considered by them of no validity. The Popes had exercised temporal power in the cases of Henry 111. and Henry IV. of France, and in the cases of Henry VIII. and Eliza beth, in England. When they asserted doctrines. then, so contrary to what had been the practice of Popes and the authority of Councils, did not the House feel the contempt in Which their present duels. rations ought to be held ? Then as to the opinions of their Universities : when Henry VIII. wished to di.. vorce his Q.reen Catharine, the opinions of those Uni versities ( Douay, Salamanca, burbonne, &c..) had been taken on the subject I and one half decided that his marriage was invalid and incestuous, whilst the other half declared it to be lawful and perfect. The fact was, they were bribed on both sides—on one by the agents of Hem) , VI ll.—on the other, by those of Charles V. ; and it ....as remarkable, that Bonner was one of tlie a:ents of Henry VIII. in tie distribution throughout E.trop . of the bribes to the Universities. But as to the obligation nf an oath, let themselves speak. Dr. Milner—(A /aus/r)—yes, Dr. Milner, notwithstanding the Sardonic mile on the counte. nances of the Hun. Gentlemen—Dr. Milner, who was the general agent for all the Cadioiics of Eng land and Ireland, maintained that the obligation of an oath was to be measirred by expediency ; and Dr, Lanegan,' an Irish Titular Bishop, held nearly • the • same : ;n shot?, there was no such thing as holding them by oaths ; even the Doctor Sukilis of the Right Hon. Gentleman who had the other night entertained the House with so much wit and humour—even that same Doctor, Thomas Aquinas, held that an oath might be broken, if after having taken it a per s on should come to the knowledge of a fact, which if he had known previously would have prevented him from taking it. But the same doctrine lead at a still later period been maintained by the Pope: when to appease an insurrection of his subjects in Hungary, the Emperor of Germany had entered into a treaty with them, and took an oath to observe it faithfully, the Pope, in 171 Z issued a Bull, declaring both the stipulations of the treaty and die obligation of the oath to be void. He objected, therefore, to the whole of the Bill, and particularly to die amendments of the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Canning). These amendments provided, that certain Commissioners should be bound by an oath not to recommend any individual to a Bishopric whom they should not be lieve to be loyal. • This was the only security pro vided. But it was impossible they could be loyal whilst they acknowledged the supremacy of the Pore, unless loyalty to the Pope were meant. When the Veto was rejected, the Right Hon. Gentleman was put to it to find out some other security, The Veto gave to the Crown an absolute nomination of the Ro man Catholic Bishops, but the Right Hon. Gentle man's amendments gave the Crown no power, though they would give to the Commissioners some interest. He saw even by the Papers received this day, that Dr. Troy had sent a deputation to the Catholics, to intimate his entire disapprobation of the Bill.—(N it is net so," observed a Member sitting near the Learned Gentleman.] —He had seen it stated in the public Papers, and had no other authority for his assertion. Under all these circumstances, lie should feel it his duty to move, 4 4 That the Bill be read a second time this day three months " Mr. CHARLES GRANT, in rising to follow the Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman, for whose vene rable age and extensive knowledge he had the highest veneration, would have been fully sensible of the d•ffi culty of the task of replying to him, if he had not been relieved from that obligation by the perfect re membrance he had that the speech which the House had heard front the Learned Gentleman this eight, had been so completely answered by a Right Hon. Gentleman on the floor (Mr. Grattan) in the course of last Session. The Learned Gentleman had thought proper to complain of the tone in which the hiends of this measure had pressed it upon the consideration