Star. — London, England, 1820-05-13 00:00:00

e qually concerned in bringing about the inquiry *hich the petitions of the one side demanded. He leard, therefore, with great regret, an Hon. Mein kr sound the alarm to the country. He was satis fied that no increase of return for his produce could benefit the farmer, without eventually bringing pro. rertionate advantage to the mechanic. He agreed in the opinion that the Corn Bill failed in its object; :a; he was convinced of the necessity of keeping up farmeri income. Upon the whole view of the I ;ibiect, he felt satisfied that nothing could remedy :ie universal distress of the people except some mode lightening the pressure of taxation, and reducing :":e interest of the debt. He believed in his consci e:lce that nothing but remedies of. this nature could ..',leviate the just complaints of the people. 'General GASCOTNE did not rise for the purpose ~;f drawing on any premature discussion upon the .. ü blect, but in order to correct the misconception 711 at he had sounded any alarm to the people, or that had entertained the notion of a distinction of in t:rests bet%% een the met cantile and agricultural classes. He deprecated the introduction of the subject at all, it was calculated to promote the general inita fon of tl a public mind. The petitioners, it was :aid, complained of the importation of foreign corn, and wanted a Committee to inquire into their case. Ue was ready to grant them an inquiry into their si tuation, but he was convinced that whatever might he the prayer of the agriculturists, their real object absolutely was, to raise the price of the produce of their land. He was disinclined to animadvert upon the motives of any set of men, but he bad a duty :o discharge towards his constituents, who, to the amount of 111,000, he felt satisfied, were ready to declare against a Corn Bill. He would state to the House that he had that morning received a letter from a respectable manufacturer in the neighbour hood'of Manchester, asking his advice upon the pro riety of calling a Public Meeting with a view to petition Parliament against the objects of the agri. cultural petitions. In his answer to that Gentleman, he recommended him to postpone any expression of their opinions, until the objects of the agricultural body were somewhat more defined. In the meantime he thought that the number of petitions which were presented, and were likely to be presented to the House, excited a strong sensation in the public mind, and he hoped that the propriety of abstaining from the promotion of irritation and bad feeling, would Le more extensively felt than it appeared to be. Sir JOHN NEWPORT was not surprised that there should be a difference of sentiment oa that oc casion between the Hon. Members for Carlisle and Liverpool, and he thought that each had a right to dicier from the other. The latter Hon. Member, u:to had animadverted in such strong terms upon t:te impropriety of any discussions upon the subject b.::ore the House, had himself, more than any other icniber, contributed to increase the public alarm. 1k was sorry to witness any attempt made to dis c. urage the exercise of petition by the public. If the i.ll;tbitants of any part of the country felt aggrieved, and imarned that they could be benefited by the in te:.positioa of Parliament, he would say, let them petition, at their discretion, and in the language of the late Speaker of that House, he would add, « Let the doors of the House be thrown open to their corn. plaints." The agriculturists complained of distress, and asked inquiry with a view to their relief, Would, or ought that House to refuse them inquiry ? When a Petition was brought up from some cotton manu facturers, or some distressed village in the manufac turing districts, no objection was expressed against f:e exercise of their right to petition—no atttempt vas made to suppress their complaints. Every body must be sensible that the interests of the mercantile and agricultural bodies were the same. The manu facturers must be aware that a home market was su perior to a foreign one; and that if the farmer was impoverished, they %vadat participate in the evils of iris poverty. He trusted that Petitions, from what ever quarter they might come, would be received and treated with candour and temper, and that on r 3 occasion should an application to that House from a suffering class of the people be discouraged. Lord 1 F.MPL said, that the prayer of the Peti tion was roe inquiry, and not for any specific measure of relief. Mr. RICARDO did not doubt the representations contained in the different Petitions of the digresses of the Agricultural part of the community. If it were proposed to relieve the distresses - of this class, without any regard to the effects which the remedy :tight produce upon other parts of the country, no t Lag was more easy than to find out means of re ezeis for that particular interest; but on this occa sion, unhappily, it was not one class alone for whose grievances remedies were to be provided ; and if an impartial attention to the distresses of both parties required any sacrifice of particular interests, he trusted that there was virtue enough in that House to make the sacrifice. Ile assured the House, that he felt this to be a most important subject. The grand means of remedying the general distress was to be looked for in supplying an opportunity to make la bour as productive as possible. He was unwilling to dwell longer at present upon this delicate topic, and would therefore content hinicelf with declaring his decided hostility to the prayer of the Agricultural Petitions. Mr. CALCRAFT entirely approved of the Peti t:6ns on the table, and looked forward with pleasure to the probability of an inquYty into the state of the Agricultural distress. When the Corn Laws were under the consideration of the House, he expressed his disapprobation of the importation price which these laws had settled. He thought it most unwise co discountenance the complaints of the people. It *as the duty of Parliament to do all in their power 0 furnish redress wherever it was called for; and - low could they act up to the dictates of this duty, • nless by giving an impartial ear to the representa ions of a ll parties? An investigation, upon the :% - inciples of equal justice and equal indulgence, old have the best effects, and might tend to chew he farmer that lie could not consult his own inte- !,,t better than by mending the situation of the ma •mi.icturer. his Honourable friend (Mr, !tie:info) , :ho professed himself adverse to the prayer of the •vtitioners, had on a former night *ateJ k to be i : i s ' , pinion that the Agricultural pact of the country be partially relieved from the burden of sup notti;:g the poor, which was now entirely thrown pint them ; and the Honourable Member even ex rcbscd Lis rzadii.ess to concur iu some measure for remunerating this body. W.is not then this admit ted grievance a fair ground for intiniry?--(Hear).— The concession from hi; Honourable Friend was very important, and he hoped it would be felt by the House. No one who examined the matter, but must acknowledge it to be an extraordinary griev ance, that the Whole support of the poor should be thrown upon this particular class, and that too con trary to the just intentions of the various Acts by which the burden was created. Lord NL'GENT was - willing to grant the prayer of the Petitioners for a Committee of Investigation, while he dissented from their reasoning. He be lieved that the Corn Laws failed in their object, be cause the only effect of them was to fix a inasimum, instead of a minimum. lie disapproved of an im portation duty on Corn, as tending to add to the pressure of the poor-rates—to increase prices, and bring great distress on the country. But it was in vain to expect a remedy for the public distress in an importation duty, or in any other measure, as long as the country was subjected to the evil operation of a great debt, and a fictitious paper currency. The diminution of the debt, and a return to a sound cur rency, he knew, were calculated to produce much temporary distress, and he thought it would not be unwise in Parliament to consider of some means of temporary relief for this distress. Mr. HUSKISSON rose for the sole purpose of imploring the House to reflect upon the course it was now pursuing —(Hear, hear). He deplored the introduction of a discussion upon a topic to which every man's mind wits turned with extreme concern, until it was taken up with a view to have the whole thoroughly considered. The House was aware that a day had been fixed when an Honourable Friend of his (the Member for Surrey) would bring forward a motion upon the subject, and to that opportunity he hoped every Honourable Member, who was anxious to express his opinions, would reserve himself. Mr. STUART IVORTLEY suggested the pro priety of allowing the private business to be pro ceeded with first.—The Petitions were then read, and ordered to lie on the table. Mr. LYGON presented five Petitions from Land-owners in different parts of Worcestershire, complaining of Agricultural distress.—Laid on the table. Mr. li] \G presented a similar Petition from certain Land. owners in the County of Middlesex.-1,4d on the table. PARLIAMENTARY REFORM. Sir M. W. MOLLY, in laying•on the table a Peti tion from the Merelnuits, Bankers, Inhabitants, pro prietors and occupiers of property in Newcastle upon:Tyne, iu favowr of Parliamentary Reform, wished to be indulged with a few words upon the subject. It was signed by 3,016 persons, to his per sonal knowledge of the greatest respectability, and it was unanimously agreed to, at a Meeting very numerously attended; it also deserved remark, as being the first Meeting at which the restrictive powers lately given to Magistrates had been carried into effect. He did not mean now to enter into the pro priety of the opinions contained in the Petition; it would be sufficient to say, that though many Gen tlemen might still think they went too far, they prayed neither for Annual Parliaments nor Univer sal Suffrage. He moved, that the Petition do lie upon the table. Mr. LAMBTON also adverted to the respectabi lity of the individuals affixing their signatures: they consisted of that class which hitherto had not taken so deep an interest in political matters as could be wished for the welfare of the country—he meant shopkeepers and tradesmen, forming the middle rank of society. The Petition originated in a Requisition signed by fifty names ; but as the Mayor of New castle did not think fit to comply, the Meeting took place without his sanction. He trusted that the ex ample here set would be followed throughout the. kingdom, and that the middle class would shew that in times like the present they felt a strung interest re garding a question involyipg their most valuable in terests. As he had a mot s pend:ag on the subject, he would not now say more than that, if the subject were calmly and considerately entertained by the House, the decision was, more than any other mea sure, calculated to calm the prevailing and increas ing discontents.—The Petition was laid on the table. PETITION AGAINST THE CIVIL LIST BILL. Lord SEFfON said, that he had been entrusted with a Petition from about four hundred Merchants' and Inhabitants of Liverpool, praying that before the 'Civil List Bill were passed into a law,' the House would take into its most serious consideratioo the un exampled distresses of the People at large; that no pensions should be granted by the Crown to Mem bers of Parliament, without disqualifying them for seats in the House of Commons ; and that the fund out of which those pensions were granted might in future be clearly defined in its nature, and limited in its amount. From an intimate friendship for and connexion with many of the Gentlemen whose names were subscribed to the Petition, he could assert that' they were of the highest repectability ; and he was sure that there was no class of his Majesty's subjects more anxious than they were, that the real splendour and dignity of the Crown should be maintained. Mr. 13ENNErf said, that he also had a personal knowledge of many of the individuals whose names appeared at the bottom of the Petition. He gave notice that he would propose a clause to be added to the Civil List Bill, to disqualify persons holding pen sions under the Crown from sitting in the House of Commens....-The Petition was received. MILITARY AFFRAY AT OLDHAM. Mr. HOBHULTSE presented a Petition, ahich he said was signed by upwards of three thousand of the inhabitants of Oldham, in Lancashire. The Peti tioners complained that they had been for soma time past exposed to a series of outrages on the part of the military quartered amongst them, and in the neigh bourhood. The Hon. Member stated, that,_betore he agreed to present this Petition, he thought it his duty to inquire whether the account contained in it of the outrages in question was in any degree exag gerated, and so far as he was able to learn, he found that everything it alleged was correct. He should also state, that the Petition contained not a single expression disrespectful to the House. It was neces sary to observe, that the inhabitants had been three several times subjected to this abuse of military authority—but that still, from certain suspicions which they entertained that justice would be par ' tially administered by the Civil Power there, they preform)! going before the Commanding Officer, in order to oLtain the removal of the offenders,. and it vii IMP tl a 6011041.44cC of their suspicions they thought it right and necessary to My their Com plaint berore the Hotise of Commons—{/Year, hear). The Petitioners prayed that the House would take into its consideration the propriety of diminishing the Standing Army, and he believed that Oldham was nut the only place where such a wish prevailed. Mr. H. CLIVE wished to say a few words upon this Petition. He believed, in the first place, that the Petition was drawn up by a person well known, in the district from whence it came—he meant the person who conducted the Manchester Observer.— The Petition very much overstated the facts, and turned an affray into a riot on the part of the mili tary. The truth was, a few soldiers were together in a public-house on the .24th of April, when the King's birth-day was celebrated, and they heard some other men who were in the same room give a most improper toast, which they, or any one in his Majesty's service could not but consider as an insult. The following day they were in the same house, the toast was repeated : the soldiers said they would not put up with such insults, and some words passed in consequence. The toast was—" May the skin of every loyal man be torn from his back to maltit4t l drum for the Reformers to beat to arms!"—(Hear, hear I J—When this toast was given, there were twenty other .men in the room, and five or six sol diers. The latter remonstrated upon the character ' 1 of the toast, and they were attacked, upon which one got out at the window and cried out to some fel low soldiers in the street to come in and prevent their comrades from being killed. Ten or fifteen soldiers did get into the house, but not without breaking through the pannels of the door, *hich was previ ously shut in order to keep them out. Blocs were given and received on every side, and here the mat ter would have ended, but for some person in the town, who wished to make more of the matter than it deserved. Upon a representation to the Com manding Officer, he ordered the obnoxious men to be removed from the town. It remained for him to observe, that the Magistrates ordered an investiga. tion into the whole of the affair, and as that was the case, he hardly thought the House would think it right to institute any inquiry into it—(Hear, hear!). The question was then put by the SPEAKER, and a strong disposition to reject the Petition was manifested, upon which _ _ Sir FRANtIS BURDETT rose for the purpose of stating, that he thought it his duty to take the opi nion of the House upon the question. He would not have troubled the House if he had not perceived a disposition to reject the Petition, and that upon the mere statement of the Hon. Gentleman opposite—a statement which, most probably, originated with the party interested, and which was so much at variance with the evidence of the 1.',000 persons who had signed the Petition—( Hear, hear).—The subject to which it referred was one of a most serious nature; and it was of the utmost importance, not only that the Petition should be received, but that an inquiry should be instituted into the facts—( Hear, hear ). T 1 him, at least, the subject appeared to be of that nature, that he hardly thought he would have done his duty to the public if he did not endeavour to'im press upon the House the necessity of a full inquiry' into the whole transaction. It was impossible for the House to reject the 'Petition without knowing what it contained - -,(Hear, hear).—lt was manifest that a defenceless portion of the community was attacked by those who had arms. This was a matter of the greatest importance, and he did not believe that the ouse would venture to reject the Petition—(Hear). The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that though he had good reason to doubt the facts as stated in the Petition, ,still he was not, therefore, disposed to reject it—(Hear, hear).—For his part he would tecommend the Petition to be received— (Hear, hear),—But, if any further proceedings were to be taken, he would reserve to himself the right of giving to theuk any opposition which he should think proper—( Hear, hear). Mr. BOOTLE WILBRAHAM wished the'Petition to be received and inquired into, but for a reason different from that which operated upon the Gentle- i men at the other side of the House. He was con vinced that the more the allegations in the Petition were canvassed, the more the falsehood of them would be known—(Hear, hear).--He believed that his Hon. Friend (the Under Secretary of State) re ported the facts correctly, and he wished first to see, from the reading of the Petition, whether it was de serving of inquiry or not—( Hear, hear). Mr. H. CLIVE hoped it would be recollected he had observed that the House might not think it ne cessary to institute an inquiry, because an inquiry was going on before the Magistrates. Lord MILTON feared that some Members on the other side of the House, who evinced a disposition to reject the Petition, committed rather their passions than their discretion. At present it was no matter which of the two statements—that of the Petition rers, or that of the Hon. Gentleman opposite, was correct. It was enough for the House to see that the subject was of importance sufficient to require investigation. He trusted that the Hon. Gentleman opposite would investigate the subject farther than the debates of the House, and that he would go into a cool inquiry, which would shew the real merits of the Petition—(Hcar, hear), LThe Petition was then brought up and read.— The Petitioners prayed for redress, in consequence of a series of military outrages, to which they had for some time been exposed. They entered into a detail of the injuries a number of persons in Old ham had received limn the soldiery. One of them had received a wound over his left eye, which *- vented him from pursuing his usual avocations ; 'a second person had received two wounds on his face by the blow of a large kitchen poker ; and a third had his ear cut off. Mr. 11, WILBRAHAM believed that the Petition would turn out to contain a false account of the facts. At the same time it stated nothing which was not within the reach of the House—(Flear, hear). Lord MILTON.—If any grievance were found to exist, surely that Honourable Member would admit it ought to be remedied ? Mr. 13. WILBRAHAM.—Yes, certainly. Mr. HOBHOUSE said, from every inquiry he had made, he was able to assure the House, that the state merit of the Petition was rather under than over the facts. The Petition stated, that only eighteen per sons suffered from the violence of the military on' that occasion ; but he had leirned that no fewer than shiny-fig e ?ersons were sufferers, With regard to the . . . . toast, the was aware of it, and he felt no doubt in saying, that if it were seditious, the persons who Used it, ought possibly to have been taken up, and treated • in a summary way; But he w.ts convinced the 'House would find no falsehoods in the Petitiou, ,arid that it would, don a future day, think it worthy of consideration—(Hear, Hear).—Thi Petition wat laid upon the table; and ordered to be printed. SIR TIIOI4AS iiisLoP, Mr. CANNING 1 - :.id, Gentlemen would penbahly recollect; that about melte nio:iths ago he moved the thanks of the House to the Airqtdi of Hastings, Genend Sir Thom:is Hislop, ond the Army under their command, for their achlevemerusin India: The House, while it concurred in the general admiration arid . applause which the conduct of that Army exited, made a re. genre with nespeet to vie point—the proceeding which had been adopted towards the Commander of a Fort in India, who was put to death. He (Slr. Canning) then stated, that reference would be made to the Authorities in India, and every diligence would be used to procure the best information on the subject. This had been carried into effect, and a number of Papers, con nected with the event in question, had been transmitted to thil country. He should now move, " That there hr laid before . this House copies of all Reports or Documents received siac the 11th of February, 1819, from the Marquis of Hastings ~ turd General Sir Thomas }ILAN), relative to the capture of th e eo:t of Taisteir."—The motion was agreed to, and Mr. CANNUN imme diately brought up the Papers, which were ordered to be printed. DISTRESS IN lIIRNLINGI7AM. Mr. DUGDALE presented a Petition from the Merchants, Manufacturers, and Traders, of Birming ham, in Public Meeting assembled, in which they complained of the want of trade, and of suffering under the most severe and unexampled elistress.--L They did not expect that the House could afford to that distress an immediate efficacious remedy ; but they hoped that the House would institute an inquiry into its cause. The Honourable Member believed that the statement in this Petition was not in any way exaggerated. He had information from various sources of its truth, and he was convinced there never was a case which required more the interposition of Parliament. He trusted and hoped if, after consider ration, it should be found ..flat any relief could be admioistered, that relief and assistance should be given as speedily as possible—(Hear, hear). Mr. BROUGHAM said, the Petitioners had. re quested him to lend them his humble support on this occasion. He could assure the House, that a mote respectable body than these Petitioners did not exist in the kingdom, The Petition came from no par ticular party ; it was signed by persons or every side in politics—(Hear, /ear).—Though he v. ished the House to hear the Petition, still be could Lot help stating, that his opinion, which lie had more thaa once expressed in that House, was unfavourable to the prayer with which it concluded; and it was - so unfavourable, not that he doubted the facts detailed, not that he did not believe that distress was deep and wickospreading over these Petitioners and the whole community, but because he had an opinion deeply rooted in his mind, that a parliamenfarl inquiry for the purpose of probing the cause of their prevailing distress, or for a revision of the commercial or as ricul. tural systems, was not the best mode of assisting them. —The only useful mode of treating them was in the hands of his Majesty's Ministers, who,, from their su perior sources of information, could afford the only real means of alleviating the evils complainedof.—. He did not believe, from what they had already.. done, that the present Administration were very . likely to inquire into,.or adopt the means .of regene. rating the Commerce and Agricialture.of the court. . try. Even if they had the best dispositions towards such an inquiry, he did riot think, whatever confi. o Bence they had elsewhere, that they possessed suffi cient .confidenee or-Weight in the country, to under, take that revision with an effect likely to be attenfid with success. He spoke this opinion from no factious. view. His real opinion was, thatno one party in the State was sufficiently powerful to form an Admini "stration, which the exigent state of the country re. quired—( Hear, hear). Mr. SPOONEIt said, that the questionc whether or not any particular party was sufficiently powerful to form an efficient Administration ? was one which the present Petitioners never once thought about.— They came forward, and applied to the I-louse in the only way which they were authorised to •do by the Constitution. He was sorry to hear the Honourable and Learned Gentleman say it was of no use to have • an inquiry instituted in that House. He would ,be grieved if the country thought so too, In his opinion, however, the Petitioners very properly looked ozithat House for redress, and he hoped they would not be disappointed. There were some facts connected with the subject of the Petition, which he would take the liberty of stating to the House, and , which went to shew how much upon the increase was the general distress in Birmingham and its manufacturing neigh bourhood: In 1816, the amount of the relief given to the Poor, for the first four months, was 15857. During the same number of months, in the,present year, the amount of the relief given to the Poor was 4:10,840. if the House refleuted upon the difference in the price of commodities then and now, they might form a proper estimate of the increase of distress in that quarter. The increase of that distress- would further appear, from,the diminution of animal food; and here he could- not but observe to those who were for exclusively protecting the Agricultural Interests, that those interests and the interests of the Mauls facturers were closely allied— (Hear, hear). The number of hides sold in the district alluded to, during the first four months of 1818, was 584.7 ; during the first four months of the present year, the number was only 2783. He hoped that this corn, parative statement would shew the agricultorists t that the manefacturers cannot purchase animal . food unless they assist in furnishing them with the means of doing so---(Hear, hear).Daring the first 'four months of 1818, the number of sheep consumed was 11,479 ; during the same period of 1820, the num, bet was 8,268. He would not trouble the : House at present with' any dissertation on the carees of this evil, or on what appeared - to him to be thomature.of • the remedy which ought to be applied-to-it. Of this he was sure, that if the House of Commons entered into the investigation, into which he trusted" they would enter, they would find that the remedy which was applicable to the reduction•of.the distress iii the . agricultural districts, tvould 'he 'thel,rettledy appli cable to the reduction of the distresakthe maqutac- • Luring districts--(Hcar l hear);-4One more fast, jand - he would have done. He hatthUt morning tece l eo c t_ . a letter from Birmingham, from which he Would read 1 a passage to the House, premising, that he trusted the House would do him the justice to believe, that • he did not urge the circumstance therein stated as