Star. — London, England, 1820-06-09 00:00:00

w ithout any other reason being assigned than that the ether House of Parliimerit had not cdtne to the same conclusion. If s% hat had been suggested yesterday bad been adopted, this inconsistency would not have: occurred. He could not, however, think that making au order thafthe Committeeshould not sit till Tues: t lay, was the way to preserve the . dignity of the House. The true dignity-would-he to persist in vihat they had Jone yesterday, if they thought it right ; or, if they found they had Veen inerror, to rescind the order rntirety. The Earl of LIVERPOOL c ould not allow the speech of the Noble Lord to pass without observa tion. The proceeding of yesterday had nothing to do with the delay now .proposed. It was riot said that their Lordships should wait for a contempora- mous proceeding of the other House. but the pro position was made with the knowledge that the two Houses were to proceed contemporaneously. The llruse, however,' would act on its own view of the He had not said that all such measures should cont-2mporaneous in both Houses ; but he still main -,; 3e 3 the opinion he had given, that in tbe present case, h it tvas to be proceede.l in at all, the proper way was by that and the other Muse of Parliament en tering on the measure at the - same time. 'rhe post-- T iming to Tuesday next Was . no abanclonnrent cf . what had already been done, and might have been postponed by any Noble Lord without reference to what had occurred in anpther place. He made the proposition without reference to any facts or circum stances which had come to his knowledge. lf, from the nature of the case, any good result might arise from the delay, an opportunity was afforded fbr that advantage,_ but there was nothing in the proposition of delay to.impeach the propriety of the proceeding of yesterday. The Earl of CARNARVON was for the palpone 'rent of the ballot, and thought the adoption of the Noble Baron's motion the course which common sense dictated. What was the only ground for de- I.zy ? It was obviously the possibility that some cir cumstances . might arise which would render it un tecessary to rorm any Committee on the case: The Noble Earl's rather clumsy way of obtaining delay, by postponing the sitting of the Committee to Tuesday, was virtually the same as the motion of the Noble Baron. He could not fix Monday lbr the meeting of the.. Committee, because if an arrangement should take place alter to-morrow, the House would not have the opportunity of prevent. ing the CoMmittee front proceeding to the investi.• gation of the papers on the day on which they would he ordered to sit. When no advantage was gained by the Noble Earl's mode, he thought it would be more becoming in their Lordships to adopt the con sistent course proposed by the Noble Baron, espe cially when they considered the delicate situation in which they would be placed if the House of Com mons should, after all, decide to proceed by impeach ment—( Hear). The Earl of DARNLEY. supported the motion of the Noble Baron, by the ,adoption of which, he thought their Lordships would best consult the dig nity of the House. Lord ERSKINE concurred in the propriety of the course proposed by the Earl of Liverpool. If there had been anything done inconsistent with the laws' . and constitution of Parliament, their Lordships might be called upon to retrace their steps; but nothing of that kind had been done, and he therefore saw no ground for the objection of -his Noble Friends. He sincerely hoped that the reports on which the pro ceeding had been instituted might prove unfounded; but when the fidelity - of the Queen was - in, ; question, %that had been done was strictly proper, for in such a case his Ifajesty had no . other course but to take the opinion of Parliament. . His Majesty's message, referring the docuitients.to the House, teas conceived i. the most proper terms. It was forbearing and tender, and perfectly consisieut with his Mayesty'S Orafter. He certainly was one who had agreed with his Noble* Friend's ifi' cobiletnning Secret Com 7 mittee„ he aline ed thai"the bnfavourable fm pression respecting them our the, public mind was a serious objection; but he believed that on the present occasion a Scent Committee was the most proper mediiim for investitiatien, 11" the report of the Com mittee should he, that there were no grounds for pro. ceeditig farther, then the -Queen would stand fully accinitted - 'in the opinion ofitii?" world; but, if the inveitigatiiin was :made. asubject of public notoriety, could any.mait venture to say-that a stain would•not be left behind? -gut: it was • said that the House might assume the chaiiiterbotfi bf a Grand and a Petty Jury.: But was there any reason to suppose that the inquiry could , liaif to impeachment ? Cer tainly not. He agreed . in the statement of the law made yesterday by the . I , :eble Eirl. Indeed, that there would be no impeachment was an opinion that their Lordships might collect from the Message. As l it was sent to both Houses, it was to be presumed, that no criminal procce.H.g was intended; and it could not be supposed ..tat the House of Commons would impeach the Queen,: without the consent of Majesty. If that House were placed in a situa tion inconsistent with the ,law and Constitution by any act of the other, their Lordships might refuse to try. If the proceeding were to be confined to a Com mittee, lie should be of the same opinion with those who were averse to that measure ; but as the Com mittee would be appointed to see what, if any, pro ceeding should be adopted, he approved of it. Whe ther the course that might be pursued at a future pe riod were judicial or parliamentary, whatever was the shape which it Might assume, the trial must be open and public. Everything which a subject had a right to expect must be extended in the most effec tual manner to the Queen. It was not to be believed that their Lordships, and the other House of Parlia ment, would not conduct a proceeding of so deli-'' tate a nature with all the honour, fairness, and pro priety, that was necessary. As long, however, as a glimpse of hope could be entertained that this un happy business might be settled without inquiry, so long, he thought, it would be much better that the meeting of the Committee should be postponed. But he ne% er could consider thaz their Lordships had done wrong Stith respect to what had already taken place ; on the contrary, he w=ould maintain that they had acre,' perfectly right. The Earl of ROSSINN would endeavour, if he could, to bring back the attention of their Lordships to the true state of the business, and he was not de sirous "to- notice that- pal trot: the speech:of hi visloble Friend, whiclithicily appilired to him to be an ar gurnent growing out of the debate that passed yester day, farther than' to set Min right' with respect to what had taken , place, because he conceived there was not 'one word which he then heatd • uttered on this subject, that conveyed any wish either to refuse such proceedings as it'might be deemed fit to adept at a proper time, and after due consideration, or to deprive his Majesty, or any other individual, of any relief or remedy that might be devised when the case was investigated. •The argument, as he understood it yesterday, was; to persuade their Lordships not to place themselves, by any act, in a situation' that must embarrass them, if a judicial proceeding were . begun by the other House of Parliament. They were called on, not to adopt any pioceeding that might seem to imply the prejudging of a case, with respect to which they were to be the ultimate judges; and, therefore, it was argued that they ought not to proceed with any examination, or to offer any opi nion, either of which was likely to have the effect pointed out. Another argument was, that the pro ceedings of the two Houses of Parliament ought not, in any degree, to be placed in competition. These were the observations madc yesterday; and the pro ceeding then determined on could not now'be re tracted. The course of proceeding pointed out to day was by no means intended to undo what was ,done last night; and neither of his Noble Friend", in the course of their observations, had said anything that could lead to an, opinion that they wished their Lordships to retrace their steps. The state in which they stood was this—they had either heard circum stances, or they had learned that an opinion was en .tertained, that by a short delay that House might be spared the painful necessity of entering into the dis cussion of this question, and the still more painful necessity of a public examination of this most dis agreeable subject'. Under these circumstances, all persons, he believed without exception, had agreed that the delay of a few days would not be objection able. He apprehended that not the smallest objec tion could be offered to the practical result of such an arrangement. The question, therefore, was merely as to the mode of their own proceedings—whether they would fix the ballot of the Committee for Mon day. or go on with it its-day, and adjourn the farther proceedings until Monday ? The benefit that would result from a short delay being admitted on all hands, he could have no objection to the proposition of the Noble Baron opposite (Lord Kenyon), and he would therefore acquiesce in his motion. He apprehended, that by suspending all the proceedings, in the hope— he knew not with what probability of its being realized—of an amicable arrangement taking place, their Lordships would stand acquitted in the eyes of the country. It would, he conceived, be better to let the ballot stand over to the day mentioned by the Noble Baron ; and then, having weighed the events which might occur in the interim, they could decide whether it might be necessary to proceed farther or not. As a hope seemed to be entertained, that their acting farther in this business might be rendered un necessary, he conceived that the suspending their. proceedings, the moment it was admitted that such was the acknowledged feeling of the House, would be more respectful to all the parties, more respectful towards the Public, and _more consistent with the sense of their own dignity and honour, than to go on with proceedings, which, although they had been be gun, they would not perhaps be able to carry to any practical or useful end. Lord ELLENBOROUdH saw little difference in the two modes that were proposed. It was of little matter with respect to the dignity and consistency of 'their proceedings, whether they adjourned the . appointment of the Committee, or,.having appointed it, adjourned, its proceedings. He, however, wished that the Committee should now he ballotted for, and that it should be directed to meet on Saturday next. He proposed this course, because he was convinced that, if there was any chance of a successfuLatrauge ment, it could only be obtained by their Lordships shewing an absolute determination to proceed in the course agreed to yesterday,.if between this day and that which he had mentioned, an amicable adjust ment was not effected. It was impossible that the negotiation could be drawn out to any great length; and he was sure that it would be shortened by the means which he now pointed out. In his opinion a satisfactory arrangement could only be obtained by proceeding in that manner. The Eail of DONOUGHMORE said, so many allusions had been made to what had passed in another place, that it almost looked as .if. themem bets had been transposed from'the one House to the other. In the place to which he alluded, they thought they had not sufficient reason to proceed, and they adjourned the debate; but undoubtedly that was no reason that should induce their Lordships to stay their proceedings. This was not all, however ; the subject was now treated as if their Lordships had also ad journed the debate of yesterday, for they had heard no arguments from his Noble Friends this evening, that had not been urged in the course of their speeches last night. And why were they called on to pause? Truly, because the debate in the other House of Parliament had been adjourned. What reason had been laid before them to alter the course of their pro ceeding, which had been so solemnly decided upon last night—decided too by so great a majority, that those who differed in opinion from that majority did not think it necessary or proper to call fora division ? What sort of argument was advanced in order to induce them to depart from the proceeding originally contemplated ? He had heard none, except that a different course was taken in another place. It would not be at all material to quarrel about a day, or two days, or a week, in the decision of the present ques tion. Every Noble Lord, he was sure, wished it should be placed on a proper, decent, and constitu-. tional footing, agreeably to the - feelings of' both the Illustrious Personages, and therefore in unison with the sentiments of all those who could boast of 'any degree of delicate and honourable feeling.— this ground he should have no objection to give as much time to the consideration of their proceed ings as could with propriety be called for; but he asked what individual argument, what reason, in the smallest degree forcible, had been laid before their Lordships to grant an extension of time on the pre sent occasion? They had nothing to do with what. had occurred in the other House; an allusion to what passed there, if used as an al-valeta, was most untenable and most unparliamentary. He must sat, that if they altered the proceeding which they had last night agreed to, that - of balloting this day tor, a Committee, they would do ae on no good Patti rnentary ground, but merely because they chose to truckle and bow down to the other House of Parlia mem. Were they, because the othir House had thought fit not to come to an immediate decision as their Lordships had done, to say, " Oh! . now we cannot venture to proceed, the other House of Par-, liament having suspended their judgment, and post: poned the debate, as they do on many other occa sions, to another day." It seemed, because the Mem bers of the other House had not made up their minds, or for some other reason, had postponed the debate, their Lo r d s hip s were , therefore, to stop all their proceedings, the most solemn, perhaps, on which that House had been called on to decide, taking into consideration the Illustrious Personages concerned, for many ages past. They were called on to forget their duty to themselves, to the importance of the subject under discussion, and the high dignity of the, individuals connected with it, by immediately adopt ing, not the course of procteding, not the opinion of the other House of Parliament—for they had ex pressed none—hut me:ely adopting the postpone ment of that which they had previously agreed to pet feet. They surely mould not be induced to do so, because the simple fact had been stated that the other House had not come to a decision on the sub ject, on which their Lordships had last night decided. The Marquis of LANSDOWN said, as a reproach had been cast against his Noble Friend near him (Lord Holland) and himself, on account of what had fallen from them, he felt himself called on to say that the accusation .was not well founded. He, in common with the rest of their Lordships, had a right, he conceived, to give an opinion on every part of these proceedings. Neither he nor his Noble Friend had expressed any desire to thwart the proceedings hltich had taken place in the House last night. It would be recollected, that he had not proposed to change that proceeding, which could not now in fact be recalled. He had risen to express an opinion in favour of the proposition of the Noble Baron oppo site, who suggested the propriety of suspending the ballot till Monday. The Noble Earl (Liverpool) wished also that tbs.: proceeding should be suspended, but in another way. Nothing was, however, said by any Noble Lord as to the propriety of altering the course which had been marked out last night. What he (Lord Lansdown) had said referred entirely to the comparatise benefit that was likely to be derived from one of the modes proposed by the Noble Lords opposite, both of whom, he would not say on account of what had occurred in another House last night, lest he might incur the reproach of his Noble Friend (Lord Donoughmore), seemed to be impressed at the same moment with the necessity of suspending that course of proceeding on which last night their Lord ships had determined to act. What he bad argued, and after What he had heard his opinion was greatly strengthened, since the same feeling was expressed by the Noble Baron and the Noble Earl, and ap peared to' be participated in by the whale House, was, that the proceeding should be suspended. It was more consistent, he conceived, with true dignity to express that feeling on the first occasion, instead of making believe, by the appointment of a Commit tee, that they were determined to go on, although circumstances might occur which might call on them to undo all that had previously been done. There was more dignity, he conceived, in taking the best means that occurred *to them to prevent this Com- Thittee, if possible, from sitting at all, than to hurry on the proceeding without making such an effort. He lamented that he differed from his Noble Friend, but he wished him to understand distinctly what the grounds of that difference were. Their Lordships then divided. The numbers were: Contents Present 82—Proxies 26 .............101 Non-contents Present 26—Proxies 5 ... The House, on the motion of the CHANCEL; LOR of thb EXCHEQUER, resolved iti4f into a Committee on the Irish Protecting Aiti. The Of the Resolutibn proposed %Yes, to .coatintle the Dv. ties to 1825, extinguishing every . five year after 25 pet cent. so that in twenty years the whole would be extinguished. That gradual reduction would give every reasonable time to the manufsicturers: Mr. RICARDO said, that he was glad to see that the time was to come when the country would rouse to those right principles, from whith there never should have been any deviaticin ; and he hoped' • that when the question (( Bounties, with respect to Linen, was brought furward, a proposition would,be adopted to limit the existence of those Bounties also to a certain period, as. they were quite as objection able, upon principle, as the, Duties referred to in the motion before the Commit*. Mr. V. FITZGERALD concurred with the gene ral principles of the Honourable Gentlemen who had just sat down, but he perceived that the Honiiiirable Gentleman himself was not prepared to" apply those principles to Ireland. The situation of Ireland was, indeed, very peculiar, as far as related to the previ sions of the Union for the protection and encourage ment of the manufactures of that country - . Whether the Duties under consideration were calculated td afford valid protection to the Lis!) manufacture ot not, was a question which he would not now dis= cuss, but he maintained that it was not contemplated by the articles of Union that those Duties should ter minate Ur twenty years, and that to withdraw thein suddenly would be productive of serious inconve nience and injury in Ireland. There were other Dth ties which it was the intention of his Right Honour able Friend to propose, and which were of a different nature from that referred to in this motion. He meant the Duties on Coals, Hops, and Salt ; and of the first he could not approve—because he thought an article so material to die Irish, as fuel, should not be sub ject to such a duty. Ile did not, however, intend to oppose his Right lion. Friend's proposition, partied larly from a consideration of Isis liberality towards Ireland, in the other Resolutions which he had sub. mitted, but still he must express a wish that the duty to which he alluded was reduced, although he admit= ted that its ammo:: was not altogether very onerous. Mr. J. FOSTER observed, that the Duties alluded to were Protecting Duties for England as well as for Ireland ; and expressed also a difference of opinion from his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. V. Fitagerald) with respect to the Duty upon Coals. Mr. RICARDO considered those Duties as inju. riot's to Ireland as well as to England, especially in the intercourse between the two countries. Mr. J. FonLit declared himself an advocate for the total removal of all obstacles to the commercial intercourse between England and Ireland—that the Custom-houses • between the two countries should cease to exist—that the interchange of their prOduc• tions and manufactures should be entirely uninter. rupted—that, in a word, the passage across the Chan. nel should be as free and unembarrassed as that from one town to another in either country. It was, in deed, most vexatious to think, that every man now passing from the one country to the other was liable to have, not only his portmanteau or trunks, but even his person and the clothes he wore rigidly examined by Custom-house Officers. Such a system Ought not to be allowed to exist, inconsistent, as it obviously was, with the connection of the two countries, and the wisdom of Parliament. • After a 'few further remarks from General HMIT, the CHANCELLOR of the Exert Eutma, and Mr. V. FITZGERALD, the Motions were agreed to, and thb Report was ordered to be brought up to-morrow. SCOTLAND. • • Majority for the Earl of Liverpool's M0ti0n.......79 A Committee of Scrutiny was then appointed to inspect the balloting-glasses. hi a short time they returned to the House, when their Chairman, the Earl of SHAFTESBURY, stated, that the majority of suf frages had been given to the following Peers : Archbishop of Canterbury I -Earl of Liverpool The Lord Chancellor Earl of Donoughmore The Lord President of the Earl Beauchamp Council Viscount Sidmuuth Duke of Beaufort Bishop of London Doke of Northumberland Lord Redeedale Marquis of Buckingham. Lord Erskine Marquis of Lansdown Earl of Lauderdale. The Committee were ordered to meet on Tuesday aext.—Adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Mr. G. BENNETT presented a Petition from certain Inhablo tans of the City and Liberties of Westminster, against the Alien Regulation 131111.—Laid do the table. Lord CASTLEREAGH postponed the second reading d, the Ali. Regulation all, which stood for today, till Tuesday. Mr. CALCRAFT moved for a Copy of the Appointeaene of Gibbs Crawford Antrobus, Esq. to the situation of Xegihe Charge d'Affaires in America, with the date when and dig saws of the person by whom it was made ; and also for all lIIIIMMIt of the Salary attached to that olSce.—Ordered. - Mr.. MAXWELL presented a Petition from three hundred and ninety-Ave Operative Mechanics, in the County of Ben 'hew, stating their extreme distress, and praying relief. Mr. Ler; the Clerk of Election Petitions, appeared at the Bar of the House, with the names of the Gentlemen elected to decide on the merits of the Haddingtonabire Petition. They were as follow : Sir M. Nightingale* Hon. W. H. Percy M. Prendergast Lord F. C. Bentinck Sir J. I). King Hon. H. G. Pennant WadhamWyndhans J. Maxwell Sir U. B. Burgh Lord R. Manners CIL Wall T. Kennedy T. Legh Lel. isc.Fazharris Sir G. Clerk. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER brought in the Saving Banks' Amendment Bill, which was read a Ant time, and ordered to be read a second time on Tuesday next. Mr. TENNYSON moved for and obtained leave to bring in a 801 l to enable Landlords more speedily to recover possesskin of Lands unlawfully withheld by Tenauts. ' On the motion of Sir JOHN STEWART, leave was given ' l'hi • dyke flawed TRY ANOTIIER S LUCK.— --.s a was to bring in a Bill to amend an Act passed in the Irish Rona- pretty generally on' Friday and Saturday-at the Lot man, 39th Geo. 111. for the better recovery of Tithes.withheld tery Offices, for no sooner had one person returned i in the years 1197 and 1795. l Share, than another said, " I'll try that Lady's luck, Mr. GOULMURN moved for leave to bring in a Bill tu b: y taking the. Number she has returned."—A little continue far one year an Act (59 Geo. 111. cap. 114) respecting the levy of mosey in New South Wales. • ( superstition pervades most of us, and is . likely to do Mr. H. G. BENNETT observed, that be did not mean to op- ; so when we look at Four Prizes of Thirty Thousand pose the motion; but, in the propels of the Bill moved of This hlcath for, he , —• u - . re nds, which must all be Drawn the Next Day, would call the attention of the House to a subject of consider able importance t o the • colonization of that country.-Leave -- 23d • • - _- was given to bring id the Bill. R ICHARDsoN , GOODLUCK, and Co. respectfo . 4e.. Mr. Lev appeared at the liar, and delivered in the reduced p • • the Public that die Last Day of Prat ijig list of the Members chosen to consider of, and decide upon, the i quaint • • Sc. Ives' Eleetiokketition, against the return for that Borough. this Looney will he 23d instant.—State of die 1: The names retievere•—••- Fuer Prizes of XM,bite • Hon. T. Knit +. „•'-•' -George J. Fox George H. Cherry Four Prises of Aer,e4lo . . George Y. Jerre/EV(I .. Lout Via. Valletort Sir J. Owen , . Four Prises of •CO.O At' Hon. W. Bagwell .Y. I COW . • _Sir W. W. Wynn I Four Macs of .E4OO • _ . I'll: Massey Dasepon George It. kin . J. Macdonald. . 1 • And 46 ether Capitals, Consols mid 14 4 It m . ._, Lord Stopford ' A. W. Stewar t T. P. Coarteliay I Tickets NA ShAres. warranYld uniraw ~i's ace en $.74 4 t Rim. • L o rd cm V R inbeaddosepitobeidomi leresisbilog•ln a PuII ARD3O,II GOODIXICK, and CO. 5 Oakes, vank-Imildinge,- C o ' rE kus, 03 ar. - .0. - .1 the Wateh apit, WWI Aga. -•, 4 t oi; i • - . rind dariater""• . . .. . . Sir IL FERGUSSON presented a Petition fom the Linen Manufacturers of Dunfermline, in Scot land, praying that the linen trade of that country might be placed on the same footing as that of Ire land. In piesenting the Petition, he observed, that his opinion on the subject of bounties coincided with those of the Honourable Gentleman behind him (Mr. Ricardo) ; and he hoped that, in the course of ten years, all bounties whatever en linens would cease. Mr. HUME observed, that in the manufacture of linen in Ireland, there was a drawback allowed on ashes, but no such thing existed in Scotland. If, therefore, the Chancellor of the Exchequer intended to 'put both countries on the same footing with re spect to bounties, he ought to do so with respect to the ashes employed in that manufacture; The Petition was read, and laid on the table. COURT OF LINO 'S BENCH. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL moved for leave to bring in a Bill to enable the Chief Justice of the King's Bench, or, in his absence, any other Judge of that Court, to hear - causes elsewhere than in West minster Hall. The Learned Gentleman obseryed, that, by the Statute of Queen Elizabeth, causes,at Nisi Prises could'he tried only in the great Hall. of Welt - minster ; but, owing to the repairs which . the 1-ll was at present.undergoifig, it was' netc4ary to re move the Sittings. His object was merely to make a temporary arrangement, in consequence of that circumstance, for allowing calms to In tried in some convenient place in Westminster......_._,, ;•.' . Leave was granted, and the Bill - s having been brought *in and read' a first time, eeks ordered to he read a second time to-morrow. Sir H. PARNELL gave notice, that of tits :Sloth of Junkbe .should move for leave to bring in a to regulate the collection of Tithes in Iriland. The other Orders of the Day being disposed 4.0 w -.H ouse adjourned at Scum tie-lock. . ~, . I. , • . :.-oc.