Star. — London, England, 1812-02-04 00:00:00

a bove all considerations of religion. The patto be whether the nation •as French was now, Y. der an d not whether it was Protestant or Catlas orWtaawas when the union of one or two Ca lk? ~ . -- ors would have produced a league of the tO'r et ip o wers. But now Bonaparte, the eldest V III a eh bo r e sway in Lutheran Saxony, in eatt2ll'itee t Germany, Reformed Prussia, Lutheran 11.3.aand Denmark, and over Anti•Catholie na ; , ll r eligions were united in one great mass of fl N a n d political power, and yet it Was not 80. ut the Pope that was to be apprehended ; the thunder of the Vatican, not the artillery " irea parte that we were to gua r d a g ai nst ! (Hear , IVhen the Pope issued his Bulls, and launched g a) eh ri l a t h e weapons in heaven's armoury, we were to P : e d - against this terrible shock, and look upon the rt-aamyriads asco .he wasntraining the com po w erpanitiv delynut fou g htnimpor• l i ta g itat . B tely ut in support of the Inquisition ? Phis „ Lar y' was contending in alliance with Spain and the two most superstitious and bigotted na '` a t he woi •ld When fighting by the side of Ca *a y . : allies, we ought to feel, that our native Cade, s kald not be suspected. The danger which we J ; to apprehend was from an inundation, and yet ° step ped at a rivulet. Ike p.tssed by through the j o f that spread desolation around in the . channels e a na and yet we stopped on the banks o f a stream pet wa s already run dry, and affected to think it -2. aisisla As to the onus of proof, which his Right ; s ao a rable Frisnd would throw upon those who ad aged the cause of the Catholics, he must contend, a t aby all the other way. It appeared to him curd to support; that any man could think any t gnats danger was to be apprehended to a Constitu aa in Church and State, cemented by so much ta a, a nd supported by so much wealth and e n ing of ecciesiastics, from a poor, an nninstruct. t oad an uninformed people. The Honourable Galernin ought to prove what he has advanced ; aims Catholic faith—but in place of such praof he i i a ts la you, that he will not go into the que tion of keeping faith with heretics—that he will not go into ta question of transubstantistion, or the deposing paw t ithe Pope—but was it 'fair to refuse the dis curi of those topics ? The real or supposed ad berme to a belief of such articles was the founda. tan for those se/critics against them, to the repeal a:nit:lithe Honourable Gentleman could not yield his awn:. He should have proved, that supposing Bo rearm to possess such a power of reasoning as could inns over his Holiness to any views of policy the I Inds Ruler might entertain hostile to the happiness afsecurity of this country, it was in the power of de Pope to aid those views by a spiritual influence shish it was not in the power of Catholic Priesthood waist, or in their inclination todisobey. By a refusal apron such influence in the Pope, and such submis sion in the Priesthood, he has refused to prove that danger to the establishment of this country which sawed to be the found., tion of all the Gentleman's ob jections. He did•not prove, he merely asserted, that the effect of any addititional grant to the Catholics tilreland would be a revolution that would speedily step away whatever they were accustomed to re vere in religion, or to venerate in the social institu. lotions of the country. That question of revolution, ;hid) the Hon. Gentleman trembled for upon such light grounds, divided itself into two—the will and the power. Had the Catholic Church the will to Sinter and give birth to revolution ? The domineer ing spirit it inclines to was . not denied ; but he was not aware that any such - attempt had been made by that Chtuchaa any Protestant country ; even admit ting the existence of such a will, they should meet it either by reason Or by forcea-by reason in that Noose, or by force on another Theatre, if a will so perverse, so unfriendly to social intercourse, so daring and so profligate, should at any time attempt to break into aCtian. But, supposing, thee, after putting such power into their hands, tie Cathel:cs should so far resign every feeling of every remembrance of a boon against whth prejudice had long struggled, and fur whit!) their friends had long fought ; supposiuts to net, that such a disposition should arise, and he was ; aot one who feared it, would the Church of Eng land kin danger? That Church had been nursed in Persecution, it was made dear to posterity by the Wood of thoie who had fallertfor it ; it was surround. ed with honours, and dignified with emoluments armed with sufficient power and sufficient learning-- Vita-km-, hcar.)—To suppose, then, that such a noir, cemented by the blood of martyrs—Wear, Isit,heard —and hallowed for ever in the memory of sea, sigficieriiy powerful to secure the reverence dell oho came within its shelter, to suppose it could fall by the admission of a few Catholics to the Legis htuee was • • a fear too cowardly to be entertained, and alma too mean for refutation. His Right Honouia able himi had Said that the DIMS Itratilldi was upon the Catholics ; it vass'upon himself he apprehended danger, and he shotild have shewn that his appre t . - k'nsions were not visionary. 'I he tythes were an ether subject upon •which Gentlemen trembled, and his Right Hon. Fs i ind among the rest. He would le ash ame d t o t hi n k , that i n any part of theological - sang he should be foiled superior to . his Right . Friend- -( 1 1 Laugh)--but for a re his difficulties, upon this point, be w.aild the 25th article of the same document had before alluded, in which it wt's thaLgreat and polite monarch, of whom tore *ken, that the Catholics of his domi• Id pay and acqifit the tithes to the notes .. Another danger was, th.tt no security tdmitted by the CathroPcs. They rearsed . Veto. To bring about a .concession there were but two ways—reason and force. would advise having recourse to the lat. could see no danger to the Catholic prin se grant of such a check. In Russia and :ountries, such a nomination was allowed ; naid not approve of making those things a negociation, as if brtween two hostile Whatever it was thought advisable to give given upon due deliberation, but not at lain of right. It was not to be argued in because every political establishment bad exclude that from 'which it apprehended was a questiosaot expediency e and if those acceded tosithey should be as boons. The ttholics, as they -knew, had adjourned their intil the end of Ilex, month. They had to petition, and he hoped that every iTon4; L u ig nib n le e tonal of hi lefer him to **bich he &meted.. by he had helot Lions Lot woukl be ad grantiug a tl.is kind, th No persor, ter ; but he (p l es in the in other cou but he coulk %atter of Oilers. IA • should be 1 11 as a el l ; 'bit Way, bi right to e: danger. I t claim s Were lkornan c at Ineet;ngs un 414termiued : ar. be {de hat thing would be conducted with the calmness and modaation which they had used on &meet beca sions. It was from the Throne they had derived every boon, and it was natural that upon the present occasion they should appeal to it. It was in matters of this kind only that lie would advise this plan of proceeding. It was true that the House might origi nate such a discussion, but as a question of expediency he preferred the other way. No man would deny that it must turn out most unpropitious to the Catholics, that this business should be brought forward as an annual question, to be debated by party in that House. The intention ofpetition had been announced, and even the most eager advocates of the measure would allow that it ,was a subject of such high mo -1 ntent, as required considerable time for deliberation. INo obstacle should arise from a premature considera tion of it, that may intercept the coming grace.— ' Theie existed strong prejudices against it, which rea son and temper could alone overcome. He hoped, even though disappointed for the present, they would rest their question upon a beneficence yet to come.— They had not now the hope of success, but they had not the certainty of despair, and thiiugh he saw at present no prospect of their success, he could not much blame them for petitioning, because to the afflicted, or those who conceive themselves se, there is some consolation in complaint. He was glad their applications were not now before the House. Wish ing well to the Catholics, not as C a tholi cs , b ut as Members of the British Empire, he wished to see them brought to amity, and reconcilement, and peace, not in the way his Honourable Friend would advise, by taking from them what they had received, not by a victory of one party over the other, for he would not wish that Catholics sliould succeed at the expence of the honest prejudices of their Protestant brethren, by smoothing things in such a manner as that this public mind may fall into it without surprise and without irritation. He would not enter his protest against it upon the same ground as his Hon. Friend, namely, the principles recognised at the Revolution. —The Constitution was capacious enough to admit within it all sects, and the Cagtolics as well as others; bat the present was not a time in which any good could arise from such a Committee as that proposed, and he niust therefore oppose it. Sir JOHN NICHOL rose to explain. He did not entertain, nor did he express, a wish to re-enact the penalties that had been removed from the Ca tholics: it such re-enactment were proposed„he shoul4 oppose it. He did not express any wish that even the p esent laws in force against them should be per petual._ - Mr. CANNING did not intend misreprecentation, but he so understood him, and was now quite satin . •d with the explanation of the Right Hon. Gen tl?mari. 4r. PIUTCHINSON could net pass over the allusion to him which the Right Hon. Gentleman had made. It was not the first time he had known him to close in that House a very splendid speech by a miserably bad vote. The Honourable Gentleman then went into an exculpation of his own conduct, and some very severe strictures on the political con duct of the Right Hon. Gentleman. Mr. PEELE, in rising to oppose the Mot:on, ob served, that a Committee was not required merely for the purpose of inquiring into the Catholic claims, but it was also meant to examine the conduct of the Irish Government. Convinced, as he-was, that the motion had in view such secondary object, he could not ap prove of it, even had he. been friendly to the Catholic claims ; for by so doing, it would ba assuming that there was something wrong in the conduct of that Government. He should not then impose on him self the unnecessary task of defend;ng the proceedings of the Irish Government, but he thought that the measures pursued by the Irish Catholics, recently, jus tified all that had been done. Much had been said about the right of petitioning ; but he would ask, whether there was any necessity forconvzning so for midable an assembly as had ISC'n called together to prepare a petition to that House ? With respect to the Catholic claims, he much questioned, consideriag the prosent state of the head of the Roman Catholic Church, whether the veto would be a sufficient secu rity. But admitting for a moment, that those claims were to be acceded to—that the Catholics possessed all the privileges of two branches of the Legislature, it would then be asked on what ground they were to be excluded from the third.—(lfear.)—The motion, however, he could not agree to : the present was not a time to discuss the ela.ms of the Catho:ics, and he knew of nothing in the conduct of the Irish Govern ment that called fur examination by a Committee of that House. Lord GEORGE GRENVILLE most heartily concurred in the Motion before the House; nith a strong conviction upon his mind of the present im portant crisis, he could not but deem it highly politic in them to exert every effort to conciliate all classes of the people.' By conceding to the Catho ,Lcs those privileges and immunities which they de sired, Cie love and veneration for the Constitution and Government under which they lived would be increased ; and they would, with increased sincerity, advocate the cause of England. Alluding to those events wkch have recently taken place in Ireland, the Noble Lord contended that the Irish Govern ment, in its conduct, had deputed from the spirit of that law according to whcri they professed to act. With such opinion, he could not but think that there ought to be a Committee to inquire into the state of Ireland. As to the Catholic claims, to certain pri vileges in common with their Protestant brethren, he thought the time had come when they ought to be extended to thorn ; but the Catholics might, and pos sibly would, meet with defeat in their present exer tions. Such, however, was the weight of reason and justice on their side, that though success would cer tainly be advantageous, still defeat in such a case could 1 not be without its splendour. He firmly believed ! diem to i)e sl;saffected to the Government—but that disaffection, such as it was, arose from the best feel ings' of their nature. Entertainisg such belief, lie. could not but fervently implore the House now to i think of granting that which might not hereafter be prayed for, but demanded. The time might come, should they continue to refuse the Catholics what they requirsd, when a demand would be made not unac- I conipanied by threats of defiance. Those arms which ° they - had been taught to use successfully in the cause of gogland, might be exerted to forward their own claims and-views. Mr. HERBERT could not but agree with the line of argument piisued so eloquently and eiliorieci so , ably by A Right Hon: Gentleman nW• him (Mf. Canning). He, however, was firmly of opinion, that a Committee to inquire into the state of Ireland Might do much good, Might produce the moist beneficial re sults ; but if he thought that by approving the mo tion it would be understood that he meant to imply censure - of the Trish Government for their recent con duct, he certainly should oppose it. Approving, however, as he did, the conduct of the Is ish Govern ment, he could not but support the motion. Sir ARTHUR. PIGOTT had hoped to hear rrom some of the Right Honourable Gentlemen opposite, when the time would arrive at which they thought it would be prudent and just to entertain and consider the claims of the Catholics. He had, however, ho ped in vain : hitherto they had continued mute. One Honourable and Learned Gentleman (Sir John Ni chol) to be sure, had said, that it ought to be a time to consider their claims when the mass of the Irish Catholics had become educated—when they should no longer be ignorant, but possessed of knowledge-- when they should turn from turbulence to order ! When all these things should come to pass, then, ac cording to the Learned Gentleman, would b e t h e time for discussing the Catholic claims. He (Sir Arthar Pigot) could not dare to dip so deep into fu turity as even to surmise when that happy time might arrive; but he feared that he should not live till such time arrived! But what should he say of the speech of a Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Canning) who followed the Learned Baronet. After ably com bating all the arguments that could be urged in oppo. sition to the claims,—after dispersing and putting to flight, as it were, all reasoning that could be opposed to them, he concluded (Oh! conclusion most lame and impotent !) with stating, that he could not approve such a motion as the one before the House, till he knew the fate of a motion which was to he made in March for a reveal of the Union. When March shall arrive, and when the motion shall have been disposed of in that way in which it very probably will, them the Right Honourable Gentleman probably would be for waiting till prejudices should have subsided, and till the question could be entertained with the concurrence of all parties ?—(Hear.)—But alas ! when would prejudices subside, and when might it he expected, that such a question would be entered upon I with the concurrence of all parties ?—(Hear) —To ; wait for such times would be futile in the extreme.— ; Other motives, however, might actuate some per ! sons in that House ; but no desire to concjliate in I any quarter. —(Hear, hear, hear )—ought to impede a question of such vital imp , rt to the efhpire at large —(Hear, hear, hear.) - But how was it, that none of ; the Right Honourable Gentlemen opposite had deem ed it necessary to rise, even in the defence of the Irish I Government ? The conduct of that Government I had been such, that it required much explanation, and much j nstification.— (Hear, hear.)—He was glad to see in his place, one Minister (Mr. W. Pole) who had been a principal performer in the recent pro- ceedings of Government in the sister kingdom, Con sidering the situation in which the Irish Government stood before their recent enterprizes, and considering the anxiety into which Ireland had been driven by those enterprizes, he thought that House had a right to some explanation from the Right Hon. Gentleman. —(Hear, hear, hear.) — With respect to the time of bringing forward the present question, if it could be shewn, that the consideration of it ought to be put off for fifteen days, he certainly should not object to the postponement. But they would neither say that , it ought to be put bff for fifteen days, nor would they tell the House when the question ought to be brought forward. Believing, as he did, that Mi nisters would be just as much disposed to entertain j the question fifteen days hence as they were at the present moment, he thought it was only tantalizing the feelings of the Catholics to play off this political pantomime abr ut time. ( Hear .')—lf the Ministers j would not say when the question ought to be en . tertained, the House must determine ; and.if the question ought to be entertained at all, why not at the present time ?—(Hear, hear!)—With respect to the state of Ireland at the present moment, he • would not weaken by any statalwat of oen, what had been so ably said on that head by a Right Hon. Gentleman ( Mr. Canning), but would content him self with merely asking, whether Ireland ought to continue in such a state ? • (Hear, hear.) It ought ; nt , t, and the promises held out to the Catholics arthe time of the Union ought to be realised. When taxes were to be raised, then the Irish were considered as subjects ; but they were no longer deemed such when i they would complain. Petitioning was a right inhe • rent in the people, and which was not to be tam ?ered with. If ingenuity had not tortured the sense of ex-I ceeding plain words the Act would have effectually secured the right of petitioning among the people.— And did his Majesty's Ministers say that all the I counties required to meet in aggregate bodies in or. • der to prepare their joint petitions. And was that the , • manner they provided against tumults and mobs.— He was extremely sorry for the necessity he felt in being obliged to animadvert during his speech on the Magistracy, and assured the House he entertained ! no rancour against them for the sneasures which they had adopted, though lie should feel every incli nation to favour to the utmost of his capacity the , present measure. Mr. WELLESLEY POLE, arising in opposi tion, said, from what bad passed last year in the Go- ' vernment of Ireland, he would have been much surprised had the Hon. Gentleman on the opposite • side allowed his share in those proceedings to pass without some reflections. But he felt still greater surprise when, on a night expressly nominated fcr the purpose of proposing a motion respecting Ireland, not one of those great leaders in the motions regar ding that country had condescen fed to rise, and had remained so long silent. He hurried down to the House of Commons. full in the expectation of hearing them poor forth what they airmd against the iris!' Government. (Ilear, hear, bear.) In that country, _whatever Gentlemen might exclaim, he was conscious of having done nothing but his duty in the measures which had been adopted, The debate in the present instance, was somewhat of a different complexion from what the like motion bare last year, as the House ' would easily recollect. The present motion, if he un ch.rstood right the manner of the Noble Lord's sKech which introduced it, .divided itself into two heads. • —Yirst, a direct implicat:on cf the manner in wllich the Irish Government had been conducted, find seeopdly, the iliujsion of the Catholic Question. In his nets , out-set of sulnitittilg x jastiOeition tet Ire Visit Geveritnient tie the honourable House; he would stop ifd saY, that every aft had been made use of to confound the grand Catholic Question with the ptte ceedings of his Grace the Lord Lieutenant ; teat his Grace had nothing to du with it, he maintained the laws of the land, and administered justice, and in. deed he found sufficient employment in pert* .1-ming that to preserve him from meddling with other iu y. Yet, notwithstanding, no act had been left um: ied to compel the people to believe, that his Grace was en deavouring to turn aside the claims of the Cathol c body. With regard to the circular let:er which had occasioned so much wit to be spent by many of the Hon. Gentlemen at his expence, it was issaed i 3 his (Mr. W. Pole's) name, and was framed nat by him, but by the Crown Lawyeas ; the knowledge t f its au thenticity, and the official pnreose c'n which it was employed, he thought might have sufEci .ntly Sc:ceaeil it from those. satiric tl attacks so lavishly besneved upon it. How had it happened, that during the ds. cession on the Catholic question last year, the con duct of the Irish Government had never been once mentioned, not even the most for tend aniorgst the Gentlemen on the oppesite side ever ques tioned the propriety of their behaviour on the principles of law, but so far the contrary, that towards the close of the Session, the conduct of the It ish Go. vernment received the express sanction of the Perlia ment. Ile returned to Ireland, and expressed to the Government what he had ben given to understand was the sense of the Protestant Representatives, that they entirely approved of the manner in which the Government was carried on, and that no: one word had passed concerning any wrong constructinn they might have put upon the Convention Ac. The Right Hotiouraole Gentleman, in adverting to the revorel of the Catholic Ccmrainee in 1810, observed, that he was apprlied that the Calinlic Committee meant to act much in the same manner tett they had acted before ; and he stated up et that occesion, that the Government was mast anxious to neat the whole Catholic Body with as much leeity la the administration of the law as possible; and u long as they did not commit any tneawlul a.t, no steps whatever would be t iken against them. But Gentlemen were mistaken when they supposed that the Convention Act was enacted sully against the Catholics, it applied equally to all descriptions of unlawful assemblies, and if a law at all, was a law equally applicable to all classes c f people. When it was recollected that in these debates of the Catholic Committees they introduced the very topics that were calculated to inflame the minds of the people ; the factious Newspapers of the day teemed with intim. matory speeches; and in the Debates last year, there was one instance of a person who felt he was going too far, and called out to the Note-taker, " Don't take this, it ought not to be published." The Note-taker replied, " He thought so too, and had already shut up his book." It was said the Irish Government had interfered most improperly, but what was the fact ? The Catholic Committee were Leung to augment thtir numbers by adding Peers' eleest sons, all the , Catholic Baronets, all the Catholic Clergy, and ten Delegates from each county. And what did Lord French himself tell them ?—that they were going to erect themselves into a Perliammt. It was then thought expedient by the Lord Lieutenant and his advisers to take some step, and they proceeded to stole the mischief by net allowing the Committee to meet, and the letter so much commented upon was not meant es a prevention to the evil. But the Irish Govern ment was accused of noisiness, folly, intemperance, and intolerance. They had, however, the authority or Parliament for contending that tl - :ey had not put a wrong counrtiction upon the law; and being at such a distance from this country, the Executive Govern. ment of Ireland fele the necessity of acting upon that construction. He then proceeded to detail the pro• ceedings of the Catholic Committee in 1809 and 181(1, who, under the pretence of .:dvancing their Petition to Parliament, hid actually formed a par. li anent of their own, consisting of 477 members, and if allowed to act, must hsve annulled the Gover► .. ment altogether—and if such a Convention, so as• s?mbled, had been allowed to sit in the city of Dub lin, it would be impossible for any menneer of the Government to be responsible for the consequences. They represented themselves as the representatives of four millions of 'the people. They stated they had 50,000 emong them qualiried to sit in Parlienaent. They stated their eligibility so hold all the offices of State, nay even to the Lord Lieutenant himself.— Under these circumstances, the Lord Lieutenant sent a dispatch to the Government here, stating his opi. nion, in the mean time he was advised by the Law Officers of the Crown, that these meetings were in direct contravention of the Convention Act—and the IrisliGovernment were accused of being extremely re . - miss in not communicating to the Catholics, and tak ing them by surprise, but to skew the contrary, he detailed the various considerations between the Lord Lieutenant, the Chancellor, himself, and Lord Vingal, in all of which the latter was assured by them, the pro. ceeding of the Catholic Committee was unlawful— Upon the general question of the claims of the Ca. tholics, he stated, that while lie had the honour to hold a situation under the Irish Government, he had carefully abstained from entering into any discussion of the subject ; although he had always given his vote against the prayer of their petition ; but feeling him• self new called upon to declare his sentiments, he ad. spitted he never yet had heard any statement of their claims, from vihich he could form even a plausible bop teat any thing could be done for that body with out endangering the Church and State ; and at pre. sent he felt that the Catholics had adopted a line of conduct, which, in his judgment, remiered it impos. s ble tor Parliament toalter their condi:ion, mules 10. g. as they retained that temper and teem which they new assumed, it would be impassible to ameliorate then. condition. While the present tone and temper of the Catholics continued, he could not see how any cone cession could be made. It there should be any abate ment in these, he was free to say, that lie would will. ingly acquiesce in some modified concession; but he must say, that they never could be placed no a foot. lug of perfect equality with the Protestants. Mr. SHERIDAN rose at that late Lour (rico o'clock) because he had been observed, and peen. Early looked at by the Right Honourable Getdeman in the course of his speech. On one occasion site Right Honourable Gentleman even seemed to think it strange, that he (Mr. Sheridan) should differ frogs him. it was not in one particular point that he die.