Star. — London, England, 1813-06-01 00:00:00

. , be approached with too much deliberation, but he thought that delay was more fatal to deliberation than an immediate discussion. Any further post-' ponement would be considered out of doors, as equi • Valent to an abandonment of the question for the pre sent Session. (Hear, hear.) With regard to the ar i rangement proposed by the Noble Lord, h e h a d to ob serve that, when the 2d Resolution came under dis cussion, he had it in contemplation to propose a shorter term for the duration of the trade to China, than that of the whole Charter, but he could not offer that pro position so as to be intelligible, unless the general principle should have been previously discussed. In l' point of order, the whole question of the renewal of the Chat ter seemed to be the proper one to discuss at . the outset--any specific part appeared premature at t, present. If, however, the House should determine ,i o . herwise, he would leave his motion for the Report, iii not he should follow it up, as growing out of the I Resolutions. But he should not move an exception ito an exception, unless the general principle was first agreed to. Sir JOHN NEWPORT agreed with the Right Hon. Gentleman, that the country looked for the de cision of the question, and the House had no option left but to proceed at once, or abandon the discussion altdwether. Where further delay was spoken of, it looked too like a wish to take advantage of the un avoidable absence of Members at a later period of 1 the Session. • Mr. PONSONBY confessed, that he, for one, en. tertained considerable doubts as to the propriety of coming to the completion of the measure in the pre sent Session ; for in a short time there would not be 'a sufficient attendance for a satisfactory and final de ci-ion. But he was far from thinking that it was not right to proceed at all now.—(Hear )—On the con trary, he thought that much might be done, though thry might not have it in their power to go so far as to pass an Act of Parliament binding on all parties. There was one most material consideration, which did not appear to have been sufficiently attended to, and o at %%as, the provsition to allow the exclusive trade to the Company for twenty years more. Now, he confessed, that of all the propositions, none ap pealed to him so doubtful as that ; for even though he might d'sposed to think it right to renew the Charter, vet he might object to the term of today years. This he merely mentioned in - Order to bring it under the minds of Gentlenien, and notier the pur- . t pose of declaring any positive opinion. If the Noble Liird had resolved to proceed this Session to the com pleoon of the measure, the sooner he began the better for his own purpose. Lord CAoTLEREAGH said, that the further disposal of the question depended so much upon cit.- culreitances, that it would be presumptuous in him to say'more than that he conceived, the sooner they ap proached the subject the better. It would be no small progress, if 'tkey did no more tifan understand each toher, and sift the question to the bottom. He could assure the House and the Company, that if he resisted delsiy, it did not proceed from any uncandid wish on his part to decide, hastily against the interests of the Company ; but solely that they might make some pro gress in the discussion.—(Hear, hear.)—The Noble .Loyd then repeated his opinion, that it was better to begin by discussing the second Resolution, leaving out the concluding words, which bad a reference to timei and at ter the opinion. of the* House had been ascertained on the two great branches of the question (the China and India trade), they could more conve niently apply themselves to the details. That was the c Luse be bad in contemplation, and as he be ltived that unless the House turned their backs on the measure, the sooner they were in the Committee he should persist in moving, “ That the o now leave the Chair." ROBINSON said, that It's only reason for short delay was, that a most material alte taken place in the third Resolution. It .ablish a system of licences under the autho- Board of Coniroul ; and as that system, ;es of necessity, was injurious, he trusted iuld hardly be adopted in making arrange- India. :A STLEREAGH had no objection to say, Hon. Director did not wish a discussion ird Resolution for the present, he was not press it. GASCOYNE said, that as the advocates =party sought a different ground of delay , the sooner the House proceeded the better; !y would give a vital death-blow to the me lee.— (Laughter.) AVIS having said a few words in favour of 1, the House went into a Committee, Mr. ON in the Chair. .ASTLEREAGH said, that he wished to i, at the outset, whether the House wished with the first or second Resolution ? His was, that.as the first Resolution was loose they would come with more advantage having discussed the application of the ge tiple to particular objects, and by minim •oposition which had more pretision in it:l t would have to discuss the subject in all its all its generalities, and in all its shades, at proceeding to move the second Resolution ing out the reference to time towards the', would, in his opinion, proceed in the most way, and it would be perfectly compe te Right Hon. Gentleman to move any a on the Report. As he (Lord C.) had a former occasion, bad an opportunity of to subject, he wished to occupy as little of the Committee as possible; but it would for him to state the general grounds and his Majesty's Ministers in making the al. in the Resolutions; after which he would Resolution, and, with the indulgence of the reserve to himself the liberty of replying tservations as might be made in the course ission. MIT was of opinion, that they would i earlier decision by the general discussion de subject. fEW PO RT thought, that as the vital ques- Monopoly or no monopoly, they should ad general discussion, and not proceed by the ich supposed the m o nopoly conceded. He, 'as an enemy to the monopoly in the first to its proposed period of duratiOn in the hoped, then fore, that the Noble Lord •severe in the plan laid down of the general 'proposition first,2nd then the discussion of the manner in Which it should be carried into effect.:—(Near.) Mr. BATHURST replied, that the course pro posed by his Noble Friend would actually bring into discussion the subject alluded to by the Hon. Baronet. The second Resolution, respecting the trade to China, distinctly involved the question of monopoly and pri vilege. The third Resolution also involved it ; for the first paragraph related to the question, whether or not the Outports should participate in the trade ? There would be considerable inconvenience in dis cussing, in the first instance, the first Resolution, as it related to the duration for twenty years of the new privileges to the Company. In his opinion, it would be advisable to decide what should be the limits or restraints, if any, that ought to be imposed on the Company before the' period of the Charter should be discussed. Mr. CANNING did not see the propriety of coming to a decision on a small part of the question without any determination on the general principle. In his opinion, it would be much better that Parlia ment should, in the first instance, pronounce affirma tively or negatively on the proposition, whether the East India Company, in its commercial and impe rial capacity, should or should not continue to be considered a fit instrument for carrying on the Go vernment of India? For his part he was prepared to affirm such a proposition. But, unquestionably, the decision of the House ought t o b e h a d u p on i t , aye 'or no, on the4lrst setting out upon the business. As to the Resolution respecting the trade to China, if that were to be the first proposed, he could neither affirm nor disaffirm it. It would stand without rela tion. Iu what state the Company by which the trade was to be possessed, with what immunities they were to be clothed, of what length their existence, these were all questions that were to be left for subsequent decision, and yet, on the determination of those ques tions alone should he feel himself qualified to pro nounce on the Resolution itself. In his opinion, by omitting the clause in the first Resolution, which re lated to the term of twenty years, and then consider. ing that Resolution, in the first instance, some affir matiVe or denial of the general principle of permit ting the Compai.y to continue in existence as a poli tical body might distinctly be obtained. It was highly improper that such a principle, involving, in it the Government of an empire so vast as that of Great Britain in the East, should be decided by inference, and not upon some native and intelligible proposi. don. Some might be ready to affirm th a t th e E ast India Company were a fit instrument for the Govern ment of India, but that they ought to be wholly stripped of their commercial privileges. He did not say that this was his opinion, but it certainly might be held without absurdity. would be better there fore to set out on the discussion with a reference to the political power alone. It would be better for all parties, that before any details were entered into, the grand question of the continued existence of the Com pany in their corporate and imperial capacity should be pronounced upon. He le,.seated, that if the House were required to pronounce in the first instance upon the Resolution, he, for one, must abstain from giving !any vote upon it; for he must first know in what condition the Company were to be placed ? whether they were to continue to be a trading corporation as well as to be the Sovereigns of India—whether they were to maintain their commercial as well as their !regal greatness? Lord CASTLEREAGH declared, that he had no wish to press his own suggestion, if t different course were deemed mote advantageous. He really thought that the first Resolution was of so general a nature, that although the adoption of it would cer tainly recognise the existence of the Company, yet it would leave the precise character of that Company so loose and indefinite. that when the second Resolution came to be considered, every Honourable Member would have his own imaginaty East India Company, to which he would, in his mind, refer that Resolu tion. It did appear to him, that if the House came first to sortie definite determination with respect to the nature of the privileges and immunities which the Company were to enjoy, they would then be .better able to decide on the expediency or inexpediency of their existence, or on the advisable duration of it, whether for ten years, for twenty years or for, any other period. Mr. CANNING professed himself unable to con- 1 ceive how this ideal Company of the Noble Lord's could be embodied by saying nothing about it. That did not appear to him to be the way to convert the phantom into substance. _ _ _ Lord CASTLEREAGH said, that he was by no means a convert to the arguments that had been urged against the curse of prcceeding which ht? had recommended ; but as he was perfectly ready to adopt any mode of fairly getting into the business, he should move the first Resolution, divested of that clause which fixed the duration of the Charter. The Noble Lord theu read the Resolution, which was as follows l'hat it is expedient that all the privileges, authorities, and immunities granted to the United Company ot Merchants trad ing to the East Indies by virtue ot an Act or Acts of Parlia ments now in force, and all rules, regulations, and clauses affect ing the same, shall continue and be in force for a time to be limited, except as far as the same may hereatter be nuxlified and repealed."_ - Mr. MARRYAT adverted to the great evils that hadarisen in the case of the South Sea Company, from the want of a precise understanding of the terms of the Charter, and recommended a sti ict adherence to accuracy and intelligibility in the present instance. Mr. BRUCE observed, that the qucstion before them was, simply, Whether the East-lndia Company should, yr should not, be annihilated ?—a question which imposed an awful responsibility on those who were called to decide upon it. With the permission of the Committee, he would examine the history of the Company, the sources of the applications from those who were for opening the trade, the nature of the Resolutions on the table, and the character of the evidence upon which those Resolutions were founded. In pursuance of this arrangement, the Hon. Gentle man commenced an inquiry into the establishment and progress of the East-India Company, tracing its history from the original Charter granted by Queen Elizabeth, through the reign of James I. by whom licences were granted to other tradors, which had nearly proved fatal to the interests of the wh01e...- of Charles I. who permitted associations, the compe tition attendant on which had been productive of the. most pernicious consequences—of Charles 11. by whom an unsuccessful attempt had been made to establish the Royal Government in India—and of William 111. who, accustomed to the Dutch associa tions, and in great want of pecuniary resources, re curred to that system which had formerly manifested itself to be so injurious. He proceeded to enumerate the various changes which the Company had under gone down to the year 1748. In the year 1748, the Mahratta Empire was dismembered, and military ad.' venturers seized the various provinces of which it bad been composed, occasioning great annoyance to the Company. _ In 1763 their Charter was renewed, and their rights and privileges distinctly recognized. By the subsequent efforts of the great Lord Clive, the British Empire began to be considered so important, as to become the subject of Parliamentary inquiry. In 1784 a new change took place 3 Commissioners were appointed to controul the military, financial, and political affairs of India, leaving the commercial authority of the Company unimpaired. By the wis dom and energy of Marquis Wellesley, the. East. India Company had ultimately been placed in the prosperous situatidn in which they then stood ; and they came forward to claim the rights vested in them by original grant, and by subsequent and repeated confirmation, and by which they were established as a political and commercial body. The Hon. Gentle man then pointed not, at considerable length, the in juries, commercial and political, which must be occa sioned by any deviation from the existing system— namely, the want of a regular market for our manu factures, the probable loss of the China trade altoge ther, the evil that the introduction of European ad. venturers among the native Indians would cause, and the danger to the British empire in India which must necessarily follow. Adverting to the sources of the applications of those who wished for open trade, he observed, that their allegations were unsupported by evidence ; and that though the abstract propos;tion of the benefit of-free trade might be undeniable, yet that those who obtained any acquisition, first by purchase and then by conquest, which acquisition was con. firmed to them by the royal sanction and subsequent Acts of Parliament, were better entitled to retain their interest in that acquisition than those were tol obtain an interest in it who had not visited their lives ' and property in the attainment. With respect to the Resolutions on the table, he considered them seriatim, and contended that they,were pregnant with injustice to the Company. They were in direct contradiction to the evidence that had been given before the Com mittee, the general tendency of which was, to shew that the existing regulations of the Company were admirably calculated to preserve the allegiance of the natives ; that, so far from there being a probability of an increase of the demand for English goods, in the event of an open trade, the Company were frequently compelled to sell those which they at present shipped below prime cost ; that the manufactures of India were already imnorted in quantities fully adequate to home - consumption ; and that smuggling in the large vessels employed by the Company was utterly im practicable, while nothing would be more easy than its commission in the proposed ships of only 350 tons burden. The Hon. Gentleman concluded by decla ring, that with the opportunities which a connexion of twenty-five years with the East had afforded him of considering the merits of the important question before the Committee, he should not have felt him self justified in withholding from them his opinions upon it. Mr. C. GRANT, jun. after complimenting the Hun. Gentleman who had just sat down, on the co gency of his reasoning, proceeded to observe, that previous to considering the great question before Par liament, it seemed natural to inquire what was the condition of the inhabitants of India under the exist ing system? On that subject he conceived there would not be a dissenting voice. All must agree that it was most flourishing, not only in comparison with that condition under former Governments in India, but in comparison with lily other standard whatever, India was happy and improving. This being allowed he would ask what wise practical statesman would by any change endanger a subversion of that fortunate condition/ But some of those who did not deny the' existing happiness of India, attributed it not to the East-India, Company, but to the Government at home. They contended that the occurrences of the year 1784, created a grand line of distinction, and that all the good that had since occurred was to be ascribed to the influence of the legislature. Now, even admitting for a moment, that the good effect that had been produced resulted from the united ef forts of the Company and the Government at home, surely a Body which in common with the Legisla- 1 cure bad laid the foundation of so much happness, could not be so radically vicious in its Constitution as to require annihilation, or even to deserve injury. But the fact was not as for the sake of argument he had admitted it. It was a fallacy to say that the pro ceedings of the year 1784 constituted so marked a distinction that a sudden change in the affairs of In dia had manifested itself. Those great measures did not emanate from the occasion—they did not proceed from the spur of the moment—they were the result of the' maturity of former plans originating with the East-India Company themselves—although at the period in which they originated, a period of strug gle and contusion, when the idea of political ascen dancy never occurred, it had not been practicable to execute them. Subsequently, however, to that pe riod, by a progress, sometimes impeded, but still ge nerally advancing, those principles, the benefit of which was now a subject of such pleasing contempla- Con, were more and more strongly enforced: It was during the period when it was impossible that an ex tensive plan or system could be carried into practical execution, that those principles which were afterwards adopted, and on which the subsequent interference of the Legislature was founded, were fully discussed and amply recognised. Any person who would be at the trouble of referring to the publication of that day, and to the debates in the council of Calcutta, in ' which Mr. Francis took Ls distinguished a share, would see that the two bases which were after- wards laid, and on which the government of India had been since constructed, th e i m p rove d adminis tration of justice, and the equitable assessment of the land revenue, were considered in those writings and discussions, as the great fundamental regulation on which a permanent settlement must be raised. It required long and mature investigation, accurate knowledge and profound reflection, before any settled system of Government could be established over a dominion acquired by such extraordinary means and held by so peculiar tenure. This task ; with all its difficulties, devol' India Company, discharged—nev, attained—never which was formed pounded into its gislation, orem! e prehension, the with the whole terests ! (—Hear, tuted the . grouni 1784, and althoi the merit of goy/ system, it was di minent features veral authors, at pro duction of one of the Company's servants. Th s was the system that had been since happily for the nati ves of Hindostan, in existence. This was that grand fundamental, comprehensive, soda', imperial conei. tution, which hadnow fer a succession of years g;•e ti confidence to the population of our Indian enyire, distributed the blessings of liberty to the children and the victims of slavery, and laid deep the found ition of the British empire, in the introduction of llritid: laws, the administration of impartial justice, the Fe. curity of property. and the guardianship of the p : ,,- (liearduar.), It had been no small felicity, and ha I contributed in no small degree to the practical el:- cacy and success of the settlement in India, tee Lord Cornwallis was appointed to preside over 'le early execution—a man endeared to his own age and venerable in the eyes 'of pos•eri•y, for the unsullied purity of his political.careee—f ee Iris unimpeached disinterestedness—for warm benevolence--Mr lofty management, and a temper that exempted him from those difficulties that check the march of other arc h spirits, but were utterly unkonwn and alien to his calm and dignified• sobriety of mind—( Hear, /ear.) With all deference and respect for the conduct mei policy of the Board of Control and the views with which it was instituted, he could trace, he conceived, mach of that prosperity that new reigned in Indir, much of that tranquillity which was now diffirsel use.: that vast expanse of dominion to the counsels of the Directors. •He who had been a disinterested stiecte tator of their proceedings might, he trusted, be for given for saying that in point of unremitting atienlioi , : - -assiduous vigilance, of laborious exertion, an man, however great his name er powerfui his influence, or unwearied his application, need be ashamed to find his claims emulated by those who were to be found in the number of the Directors.—(Mar, hear, hear.) Nor could any man, however earnestly he had devo ted his mind to the question, or patiently silted every thing upon this subject, come with an understanding' better informed or more maturely exercised, to an ul timate decision as to its ISSUS?. But nothing to which he had hitherto listened, had been found sufficient to meet one difficulty, that startled even the most um. ruin speculator—he meant the difficulty of safely providing for the exercise of Indi.i patronage. It was impossible that this could be vested tidier me idiately or immediately in the hands of Government, without seriously endangcrin the independence of Parliament and the great practice of the Constitution. The present plan contained, indeed, a scheme fur avoiding this danger ; but a scheme whiche in his opinion, would serve only to defeat its own purpose. The institution of public schools from which the civil officer shall be selected, however plausible at the first view, would prove utterly inadequate to the eie elusion of patronage, or the maintenance of . equal claims. By what means was superior merit to be en. I certained —where was the test to which the candidates( were to be subjected ? how were -the facilities to ad. mission to be secured ? Was the system of edacatioo to be conducted on. the highest or on an inferioe scale ? WaS it not obvious that here was abundant scope for the exercise of patronage, and That this pea tronage would'be wielded in a great measure by the servants of the Crown. The phtet of providing mi. liter) , officers was undoubtedly generous, and one to which he could make no other objection, than that it ' would leave a large disproportion between the supply and the demand, and as the deficiency would be in theformer, much patronage must still remain afloat. But what, and this was the liglit in which he was de. sirous of looking at the whole question, would be the effects of this change of system upon the natives!, How could it affect their sentiments or operate upon; their prejudices ? The whole machinery of the sys. tem might be h.ct entire, althetzgh- its powers and virtue were extinguished ; 'the form might remain af. ter the spirit which 'animated it was suppressed . ; the, curious fret-wOrk of the grotto might continue unfree , - paired, whilst the stream that gave it freshness and beauty had ceased to flow. The plan proposed to remedy the evils attendant upon a transfer of patro nage was a plan of exclusion ; it excluded from In dia the sons of -all who might not be able to procure admission for them in their new seminaries. Profess ing to have for its object the prevention of exclusion, it was itself eminently exclusive. Why should Par. liament adopt the niggardly principle cu narrow the avenues to a theatre which had produced a Clive, a Lawrence, and a Coote ? He had been recently not a little surprised at an attack upon the institution of Hertford College in another place, an attack, how ever, which had been most satisfactorily refuted by one of its professors, Mr. Malthus. Much as had been said of the anomaly exhibited in an union of govern ment and commerce, and on the inconsistency of their different functions, much of this consisted in assump tion, and might be opposed by the authority of the father of political science. The political power was however left entrusted to the Company by this very project, and it was the province of the House in car tying into effect the principle of a practical policy, not to try this question by previous rules, but to measure and ascertain the quality of. the rule by the example and evidence afforded by the case in its present shape and relations. (Hear). The evidence . given belie the Committee had, he might venture to state, disi pated much of that error which was before so preva lent respecting the accession of commerce which wes to be anticipated by throwing open the trade of India. The inhabitants of that quarter of the globe were men whose wants were few, whose climate guarded them against extravagant desires, and whose religions Conversant with external operatioriand dictating even the minutest actions, shut them up from all intimate intercourse with the manners of other nations. The mysterious serpent that formed the representation of the genius of that religion, perhaps might be emble =tic of; their destiny, and as their singular cheese- l:cved that ni the measure, the better, he Speaker do no Mr. A. RO wishing a shor ration had tal went to establi city of the lit even in cases that it would mews for Indi Lord CAS' that if the Hi on the third I disposed to pr, General Gi- „, of the Compa every day, the I if nor, they wi Lion at larre.— . Mr. DAVI, the motion, ti LI s'inxgroN it Lord CAS' under.tand, at to rocked wit impression wit ' and general, d to i", Ai ter hat nerd principle iog the propos • it not, tht y \yr '• details, in all i GnCe. By pro first, striking close, they wot ci;nveilient wa ' tent f , r the 1 (• • amendment 01 already, on a I o e ening the su the time of tht be material fir motives of his teraticns in tf move the Resc Committee, re to such obsery of the discussic Mr. J. SMI come to an eat of the whole st Sir J. NEW tion was, Mon, here to the ger details which s for one, was a, place, and to i next. He hot would persevez olved on the D'reetort of the E tst- , and ev7er was duty more faithfully ver was an ohject more successf illy was a plan arranged Anti effected led of more solid materials, that corn. essence more of the elements of le. 'braced with a more reaching, torn- whole variety •of reciprocal du., 3 , train of immediate and distant in- ., hear.) It was this plan th it consti. id work of the legislative system of )ugh he had no desire to detract from rernment it the preparation of that clue to truth to declare that all its pro. were described in the writings of s! ., ind particularly in one work, the pro.