Star. — London, England, 1812-04-18 00:00:00

_ . portence. He hoped, however, that because the were famished, they would net be treated with seveL rity. and he hoped, if a man wrote a temperate letter calling en his Pillows to apply to Parliament and to the Prince Regeet for reli(f, if to afford it were pos sible, that a treasonable intention to excite others to violence would not be imputed to him. He was sur prised at the description which had been given cf the licences granted. No two things could be mere dif ferent than that which they had been described to be - to-night, and that which he had previously understood them ttebe. He cencluJed be expressing a hope that some enquiry into the subject would be made. Sir C. Ms)R.D A uNT and Mr. ROSE explained. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he did not rise to enter into any general discus sion on the Orders in Council; but after what had passed, he felt himself called upon to make a few ob servations. The Honourable Gentleman had stated, that the Petitions came from persons who had an op • portunity of forming their opinions by experiment upon the evils resulting from the Orders in Council. Now this he apprehended they could not ; for the point upcin which he and the Honourable Gentleman were at issue, at the present moment, was, Whether • those evils proceeded from the Orders in Council, or from other causes ? It was true, these persons were 'competent t•) state the pressure which was felt in trade ; but he knew not how they could decide whe ther that preesure would have been greater or less if the Orders in Council had never existed (Hear, hear,) —whether, in fact, the Berlin and M an Decrees would have produced the mischief without them.— He would say, that not only our difficulties had not increased since the adoption of these Orders, but that the whole trade of the country was in a better state. He was surprised tp find the Honourable Gentle. man's knowledge of trade so far overborne by his zeal against the measures of Government, as to say, the Orders in Council were to prevent neutrals from trading with the enemy. He would maintain, that " the end was to open all trade, even to France herself, if France would trade with Great Britain. France had prohibited trade with Great Britain, and Great . Britain prohibited all trade to France but what should go through Great Britain. The result was a pres sure upoir France, such as compelled her to open her ports to the trade of this country (Hear.) He would state, that that very system of licences which was re presented to be a departure from the Orders in Coun cil, was a proof of their efficacy and effect. He agreed that when the question of licences was before the House, this matter would be better discussed.— As to. the importation of wine and brandy, they were obliged to take a considerable quantity of sugar and coffee in return ; and with regard to laces, muslins, . and other articles of the kind, they would be brought in illegally, it there was no allowance granted. He was surprised that so much misinformation should exist with respect to the outrages perpetrated in dif. ferent parts of the country, that they should be ascri bed to the Orders in Council, to starvation, and such causes. But was it owing to starvation that the mills were broken down ? Was such conduct to be defen ded, excused, and palliated ? As to the town from which this Petition had been presented, thy had heard the statement of the Honourable Baronet, who had told them, that at the present moment the want of employment was not severely felt. The Honour able Gentleman had recommended that the subject should be referred to a Committee ; but . the House should recollect that this was a case involving a great political question, which it was not Ills! practice of Parliament to delegate to any circumscribed Com mittee, but to determine in a Committee of the whole House. A detailed examination of evidence did not appear to him to suit a subject of that kind. He knew what in effect the shutting of the American market must have ; .but would the Hon. Gentleman state whether they would repeal the Orders in Coun cil, and what they expected from such a step ? There was one time when Gentlemen thought that the Berlin and Milan Decrees were done away ; but that time was past : no man that knew any thing of the epbject would say so now. It was noiified by France herself that they should continue to operate ; • that they should be considered as the fundamental law of the Continent until we abandoned our system of blockade. There was no man in that House who lamented the distresses that were felt more than he did ; but would any man say he was prepared to give up our maritime rights, by which Great Bri tain had risen to power and consequence ? When this declaration on the part of Fi ance with respect to the continuance of his Decrees was known in Ame rica, he was not without a hope that America would not charge upon this country an unnecessa►y strict ness in the measures to which she had resorted. But whatever the effect in America might be, this coun try ought to know that those Decrees were in full force now, and were to continue so until Great Bri tain should yield up those privileges upon which her prosperity was so strongly founded. The Honourable Gentleman had asked him on the subject of the com mercial bills, whether he knew that the next instal. merit would not be paid ? It had been states to him that many of those who were bound to pay the in stalment would be distressed by being obliged to do •so ; that many were not sufficiently relieved by corn- rnercial bills, but did not believe ;hey would not be answered by the generality of those who were bound to pay. lithe Orders in Council were repealed be fore the Berlin and Milan Decrees, the consequence would be that France would have her neutral trade open w ith America, while we were denied the trade of the Continent of Europe. Unless the House was prepared to say that this would be judicious, the pre sent did not seem to him to be a period in which it was possible to do away the Orders in Council. Mr. BROUGHAM anticipated all the astonish ment he had felt from the Right Hon. Gentleman's speech. Manufacturers brought their complaints be fore that House in petitions signed by thousands and tens of thousands. After having in vain made their applications at Court, and after a deaf ear was turned ►n that quarter to their Petitions, they now came to Parliament, and the Vice-President of the Board of Trade, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, put off the consideration of their applications until some other period. One would think they had forgotten what had happened two months back. Was this the first time they were asked tp enter into the question ? Had not he himself a short time back called u;on them for an inquiry into this aloft important sub ject And what answer did he receive ?—that there a , wain() inconvenience felt ; that there was no distress in the country.—(Near, hear, hear, from the Opposi tion.)—Lsok, said the Gentlemen opposite, look to Mr. Irwitys books—( Hear, hear, hear.)—there you will perceive the flourishing state of the. country, there you will perceive what little foundation there is for complaint. He was then t2ld, that the apparent falling off in commerce was only when compared with the most flourishing year which the country had ever known. He was desirous to believe this—he was desirous to be convinced that t h e coun t r y was i n , this . happy state, but look to the accounts of disinss pouring in from all parts of the kingdom. When he looked to the columns of the Gazette, crowded with lists of bankrupts, his faith in Mr. Irwin's books was a little diminished, and he could not believe that trade could be prosperous amidst all th i s distress.— There was no one day now passed without receiving Petitions from starving thousands of their unhappy countrymen—without accounts thickening on each other of tumult, and disorder, and misery. He wished-to avoid, as much as any man, the mention of those things. He was no patron of disturbance, and he would now pray the House to consent to an inquiry as a measure of justice. He would not now go into the question of the Orders in Council, because that was not now asked, but the country was in dis. tress. The Petitioners stated their distresses to arise from the Orders, and desired at least, inquiry. The Right Honourable Gentleman opposite an swers— no ! we will not inquire, but we shall give them a debate—they have had one night, and they shall have another. But this wits not what the coun try wanted. They wanted inquiry, with' ut which, if the country rested satisfied, he should not any longer hold the same opinion of its good sense as he before entertained. The Right Honourable Gentle. man said, that the Petition from Birmingham arose rather from the apprehension than the actual feeling of distress. In that town and its vicinity there were from 50 to 70,000 persons who derived subsistence from their manual ingenuity, and it should be re membered, that if they were once disbanded, the means of carrying on the manufactures of that town would be lost ; this circumstance induced their em ployers to retain them in employment at the low wages of 12s. per week, but if they lgoked at the clothing districts, where the same dexterity of hand was not required for the manufacture, they would find that vast numbers were out of employment.— In Manchester alone, 25,000 persons, about one quar ter of the whole population, were receiving parochial aid, and the parish rate; t c here had in consequence risen from 6s. to 10s. 6d. Were he asked what remedy he would propose for all those evils, he would say, repell the Orders in Council, and if, after that, the same dis tresses continued, they might then say to the Peti tioners, if any appeared, we have done all we could for your prosperity ; consistently with the dignity of the country, we cannot'do more. Every opportunity for enquiry was given upon this subject; but it was pertinaciously refused, and a Noble Friend of his in tended shortly to give the same opportunity again, by a motion on this subject. If the inquiry was en tered into at present, there would be found a prece dent for it in the proceedings of the West India Com mittee. The Minister may depend upon it, that the country would not suffer him to embark in a war with America, from which the country had before prevented Mr. Pitt from embarking. Lord CASTLEREAGH would not enter into the consideration of the policy of the Orders in Coun cil ; but felt it necessary' to protest against those suggestions which were calculated to excite distur bance in the public mind. The Hon. Gentleman who had last spoken seemed to insinuate that the Royal ear had turned away from the petitions of the country ; but it was not fair to take this advantage of the mere delay of a levee, which delay arose from the indispOsition of the Royal personage now filling the Executive part of the Government ? If his ob ject was to have the question fairly discussed, he should wait until it came regularly before the House. His Lordship could not approve the conduct of those who nad (flown unnecessary pictures of public digress, instead of fairly examining what it was that France really desired from this country. He firmly hoped, that Parliament would discountenance all ef forts to in itate, agitate, and mislead the public mind, by florid pictures of distress. He was ready to meet. the question at any time, and discuss the matter to l the bottom. Lord STANLEY deemed the attention that ought to be paid to a petitioning motion, a proper examina tion of, and ultimate attention to the purport and prayers of the petitioners. In the course of next week, possibly on Monday, he should make some mo tion respecting the petitions now lying on their table. Lord BINNING, as Chairman of the Commercial Loan Committee, stated, that he had no reason to think, that many were not ready to meet the instal ment• which became due to-morrow; certainly, it might be convenient to some that it should be post poned. Mr. WHITBREAD explained as did Lord BINNING. Mr. LYTTLETON stated some facts, of which he deemed it proper that the House should be put in possession. In the first place, he had great reason to doubt the statement that all the manufacturers of Birmingham were now in employ ; for, according to a sort of Census that had recently been taken, it ap peared that some masters did not employ more than one-tlird of the hands that they used to engage, and not one of them engaged more than two-thirds. In the next place, he would observe, that there were many Friendly,Societies and Clubs, in Birmingham, which enabled those out of employ to have relief without applying to the parish. He vould now ob serve, that he made the statement on the best autho rity, that in the course of two months there would be 70,000 of the Dudley and Birmingham manufacturers out of employ.' Were such facts ~t emporary incon veniencies ?" General TA RLETON maintained, that the h;gh and the low, the rich and the poor, the merchant and the trader, of Liverpool, all attributed t h e state o f t h e trade to those sources of the most extensive grievances the Orders in Council. After some observations by Mr. MARRYATT and General TARIATON in reply, the petition was ordered to lie on the table. Upon the second reading of the Sinecure Bill, the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER intimated his inten tion of opposing the Bill upon, general principles.-- , Alter a lew observations from Mr. DANIU, the Bill was read a second time, and crdered to be committed on this day sc'nnight. THE PRINCESSES. Upon the question for the third reading of the Printesses' Annuity Bill, Mr TIERNEY, with every disposition to chew liberality to the Royal Family, objected to this Bill, first, because the proposed annuity of £36,000 per annum was to commence from the 18th of February last, instead of being at the demise of the Kin ; he next objected, because the House had already voted a considerable sum of money to the Queen, in consi deration of the Princesses continuing to live with her as hitherto ; he next objected to any such grant, be cause no satisfactory reason had been given why, at this period in the straightened state of our funds, they should make such a grant ; it amounted to no thing more nor less than giving them a sum of mo ney to lay by ; for he could not believe that in the present unhappy state of their Royal Mother, any thing would induce them to desert her. He farther objected to the grant, because it was made a charge upon the Consolidated fund, instead of being payable out of the hereditary revenue of the Crown, to which alone it was properly applicable. Already a sum amounting to 8184,000 had been granted for the maintenance of the Queen and her Royal Daughters, aad he could not see the necessity of bringing a fur ther harden of £36,000 per annum upon the Public. When these sums were voted, it was urged, that it was necessary the King should be attended with some state and splendour around him ; but he would ask, whether a single Lord of the Bedchamber had ever even seen his Majesty since his indisposition ? It was all a pretext ; and, in plain English, was no thing more than making provision for certain persons in favour.—(Hear, hear.)—Before he sat down, he could not help adverting to the singular circumstances in which her Royal Highness the Princess Regent was left to appear before the coun try.—(Hear, hear.)—lt seemed as if her fate was already sealed (Hear, hear) ; abandoned as she was by her once chivalry champion (Hear, hear), her old friend, her faithful counsellor.—(Hear.) But if the Right Honourable Gentleman had found reason to change his opinion with respect to her, why had the Princess Charlotte of Wales, the future hope of Eng land, been altogether overlooked in these arrange ments ? she was now bordering upon her 17th year, and not, either from her rank, prospects, or time of life, wholly exempted from the Right Honourable Gentleman's consideration. He concluded by re peating his general objections to the whole arrange. ment, as founded upon a system designedly confused, disguised, and unintelligible. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that the question of his Majesty's establishment had been already sritled, and could not apply to this question : and the House, he believed, 'did not think that too much had been done, although the state of his Majesty's health had not been such as to enable him to receive any of the advantages which were likely to arise from the provision which had been made suitable to his exalted station. But if no such advantages were likely to occur, it did not follow that it was right to strip the Sovereign of all the forms and appearances of his high state—(Hear.) — That might, however, be the opinion of others.— (No! from Mr. Tierney.)—lf all the State Officers were removed, more would not be gained than to provide for two of the four Princesses. But he sup posed the Right Hon. Gentleman agreed there-should be some state around the King. The only material objection was to the date of the 18th of February.— There could be no doubt why that was adopted, as it was the date of the expiration of` the restrictions. The objection lay against every date till the day of the King's death. The point at issue was, whether, during his life, the Princesses should have any sepa rate establishment ? As far as he could collect, the opinion of the House on this point was nearly uni versal.—(Hear, hear.)—lt could hardly be supposed that the measure was introduced without consulting the Princedes themselves : and there was a great difference between all the Princesses leaving the Queen, and their wishes, though all might not be so disposed, yet, in their turn, occasionally to leave Windsor, where the duties she had to discharge kept their Royal Mother. Nothing was more distant than the idea of their deserting her ; but only the means, if they chose it, of having an establishment, should they remove for any time. Mr.WPIITBREAD remarked, that the Right Hon. Gentleman had said not one w or d a b out the Princess of Wales or the Princess Charlotte of Wales, nor had he given any satisfactory explanation. He ought in the beginning to have laid down his whole plan, for he must have known it all before hand. There was no doubt the Minister had communicated with the Prin cesses : but had he explained the state of the Civil List, and of the burthens of the country ? If he ha . cl, would not they, as well as other persons, feel for the condition of their father's subjects ? Would not they have naturally said, " if under these circumstances, under the increasing taxation of the country, no sav ings can be made from the regular and additional provisions for the Royal Family, we would rather de cline to occasion this new expellee on the public."— As to the state of the King, was it true that of the four Grooms three were actually out of the country, Ad miral Legge, General Campbell, and Sir H. B. Neale, certainly persons of merit and distinction? Could it be presumed they were necessary ? Was it true that only an Equerry had attended instead of a Groom ? Who was it really then that neglected the King ? But the Princes were not placed independent of the Crown and the Minister. Suppose one of them in disfavour, or an attempt made to matron' him, through the medium of his allowance, what remedy was there in Parliament, when the Minister might say the Crown did not consent ? The Princesses ought to be paid from the Civil List, as the Private Secretary ought to be paid out of the Regent's poc ket. But perhaps there were some new hopes, as the Queen was about to hold her Court and open her drawing-room again I But why was there no appearance all_ this time of the Princess of Wales ? —The question respecting her Royal Highness the Princess of Wales wan not to considered as a mere private matter, an affair of secret arrangement (hear.) There had Aieen serious examinations—there had been solemn proceedings on that subject ; the Right Hon Gentleman opposite had boldly s:epped forward in her vindication. More than that, he had actually written or compiled a book upon the subject, and he had even printed a number of copies of it (Hear,) Hundreds had read it ! (Hear.) Remove had-even said it was an attack on the Prince of Wales! (Hear.) It had even been said that copies of it had been after. wards bought up by the Right Hon. Gentk rnaws Private Secretary, for which he gave enormous sums' Did the Right Hon. Gentleman now shrink , f rog that which hundreds had rea d ? (Hear.)• He would ask him whet:ier he shrank from it, or was pre p ared to abide by it, and to let the Princess of Wales ap. pear again as she ought to a p pear ? That persu a I would expect that she, too, would preside in a draw. ing-room, after alI that had passed with the Right Hon. Gentleman's perfect knowledge —after he had publicly said that he knew of no well founded charge against her ; and when the confirmation of that was said to be found in her reception at the King's Court.. (Hear.) Yet, after all this had occurred, and err u when this Bin was introduced, still he had thou? ;, of no grant to the Princess of W a l es , f ounded on Cs general principle of providing for the Royal Family, and the new changes in their circumstances t Though he (Mr. Whitbread) wished that some proper pro . vision should be made for her, according to her situ t. tion, and suitable to her pre-eminence, he should even then think it right to examine into the Civil List, and see what savings could be effected, to enable his Royal Highness the Prince Regent to provide sufficiently for the establishment of the Princess of Wales as well as for his Royal Sisters ! (Hear.)—. He should, therefore, until that was done, resist any grants ; but he would then specifically call on the chancellor of the Exchequer to know why he had totally omitted that branch of the Royal Family (Hear, hear.) A desultory conversation took place between Mr. TIERNEY, Mr. COU itTENAY, Sir J. NEWPORT, the CHANCELLOR Of the EXCHEQUER, &C. on the COUSDISIC. ' tion of a former Act. Mr. ROSE contended that the real hereditary Crown-revenues were only ,e 300,000 a year. Mr. W. SMITH could hardly restrain his feelinp in speaking on this unfortunate measure : and pitied the Right Hon. Gentleman's necessity in proposing such a vote under such circumstances. He had ex. pected daily to hear from some quarter that it might be entirely dispensed with, Mr. Secretary RYDER was surprised Gentlemen should have deferred their objections till the third reading. (Mr. W. Smith said it was the third or fourth time he had objected). Then said Mr. Ryder others did not (Mr. Whitbread said, the Secretary of State must be wrong, for he also had). Mr. Seem. ' tary Ryder observed, that the Princess of Wales was no party to the present question. Me li:oilier own independent provision (ie.5000 a year from the omele t ride.) Whether that ought to be encreased, sai d M r . Ryder, was another question, (hear). He thought it Would be far more proper and more delicate i* Gen• tlemen to abstain from such subjects, and from such questions as had been put, by way of trying to elicit answers from those who might know the most on the subject; and which those in situations of confidence must always wish to avoid.—( Hear, hear.)—He was sure that by any such questions they would not easily prevail upon his Right Hon. Friend to d ev i ate from that proper and respectful silence which be. , longed to such a subject.—(:Hear, hear, from 1141 rides.)—lt had been said, that if the Queen held a Coprt, another illustrious Personage should hold bee should only say, iliac the drawing-room n w g a .r o s m a also. King, He and that her Majesty oas still Queen ; and who was so proper a personage to holds Court as the Queen ? (Hear.)—He defendtd the Bill as a provision for those illustrious females, who were adorned as much by their virtues as their rank. BREAD was explaining, but ‘irq calMledr. W t o orde r .Hil. Lord A. HAMILTON opposed the Bill, and ra marked, that the very ground for voting £lO,OOO a-year more to the Queen was the cspen , e incurred by the .Princesses liviag with her. The delicacy of the Right Hon. Secret iry operated against the Prin cess of Wales, for• nobody could move any grant to her without the Crown's consent. Mr. WHITBREAD expressed a wish that the Right Hon. Secretary would explain the charge d indelicacy whiz') he had brought against him in the course of the debate. And as the Right Hon. Gen tleman was sitting by his Right Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and could obtain in formation, he wished now to put the question, whs. ther there had not been a solemn proceeding on the subject of the enquiry, so often alluded to; whether a 'reference had not been made of it to his Majesty's advisers ; and whether, in consequence thereof, the Princess of Wales had nor, for a time, been absent from Court I He would ask, also, whether the Right Hon. Gentleman had not had a private press at his own house, where he caused the substance of the In vestigation to be printed, and a great number of copies thrown off for the purpose of being widely circulated ; whether a number of copies of th.4t book had not been since bought up at a great expense, and advertisements published, directing 'those who were in possession of copies to go to one Lindsell's. a book seller, where they w ould receive a liberal compenta lion ? The information which he now asked for• migia, in some respects, be of a private nature, but it was also of great public importance. Mr. RYDER did not think the Honourable Gen tleman's appeal would be productive of mucbcffect- As a Member of Parliament, he (Mr. Ryder) did state his opinion as to the indelicacy of the allusions which had been made. He believed that man/ others coincided with him in that opinion; and that no part of the conduct of Gentlemen opposite ha.: given more disgust to the public at large than the manner in which they had introduced the name of the Prin cess of Wales into the discussion on the present Bill. (Loud and continued cries of hear, hear, from both sides of the House.) Having given this opinion " , the indelicacy and impropriety of introducing nal such topics, it would not be necessary for him to as sign any other reason why be gave no ROOM t° tbs Ifonourable Gentleman's questions. The House then divided, when there apreaitd. i g the Amendment—Ayes, 35—Noes 191. Th e °`" was then read a third time, and passed. GOLD COIN RILL. Mr. WHARTON appeared at the bar with. 51$ report of this Bill. The CHANCELLOR- of the EXCHEQUE I moved, that the Report be brought up. nis opposed by Mr. PARNELI. and Mr. W. SKITIII Mfg adverted to tho lateness of the hour, and 6°o