Star. — London, England, 1827-06-21 00:00:00

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'AV N . )`. ...,,:. i . • k; t , •46 4 A ~e - N I. was not one individual Atiomberef who would not resent it with that wino' dieting ol knlignation whirls he was sure they'all poseessed in coMmon. :11,any in dividu 11 were in any way to hold up to the public as part of their body, as havieg, on othesion of voting its the majority for the Amendieent of the Noble Duke whom he did not then see in his place—if any ineirri deal were to heldlep that nvejotty to pubk cidinosa: ht for one, having voted in that aorsty, should say , taut it was not consistent with the di g nity and character 4 , any individuals, being Members of their Lordships' Moose, to allow espersioni to be thrown on their mo tives, and insinuations Made that the votes they had given were not given from any view to the public good,' but from a tegard to their own private feelings (Hear). The LORD CHANCELLOR rose to order. He appealed to the Noble Lot d if stich proceedings could be justified; and if it was not doing indirectly what, by a rule of their Lordships House, could not. be done di 7 . reedy. It was impossible not to understand the alltf "ions of the Noble Earls and he put it to the Noble Earl, if it was not dOingkhat covertly, obliquely, and by insinuations, which wet contrary to the rules of the, House, and which he todkl.nof do directly ? If it were,' he put it to the Noble E;rl, whethee,he thought it was iglu and pewee to pursue spelt coisrse ?—(Cheers.) The Earl of WINCH4tEIi said, that he was sure that no individual who knew his character would ever accuse him of listing to do that itialiiectly which did not dare to. do directly. Sentiments lied been made public tending to lower the estimation of that , House with the riblio. There was not en's public jouroal which did not contain such sentiments; and which did not declare that they emanated from a certain quarter, and every honourable feeline should make their Lord ships support the dignity of that House. If intEnda tions were thrown out under the sanction of authority, reflecting on their character, they were bound to etand forward and boldly disavow them. He repeated, tit' t k was not from the motives alleged that he had been actuated, nor bad the party he voted with been actuated by any such motives; but they had voted as they had done, because they conceived it would be for the puWic benefit, and no man had a right to say otherwbe (Hear, hear).—.Hs felt warmly on this subject—(Hear. hear).—He came into the House ready to sacrifice every shilling of his property, and trample under lot every thing he possessed, rather than sacrifice one particle of • that honourable feeling which he possessed, and which was dearer to him than every thing else. He stated, that the high character of poblic men, of those who had contributed to ennoble their country by their deeds, giving birth to those sentiments which were dear to the hearts and feelings of Britons, in particular the cha racter of that illustrious and distinguished individual whose genius, and valour, and military skill had placed this country on an unrivalled eminence, had been basely traduced. The character of that illustrious individual stood too high to be assailed by the shafts of slander. It needed no vindication from his bumble talents; and it needed no vindication from the talents and abilities of that House before the whole kingdom. Whether the blow were struck by the highest or the lowest. that blow would be met by the just indignation of every high-minded and honoarable man in the nations (Loud cheers). Viscount GODERICH begged to be permitted to say, that he did not comprehend the grounds on which their Lordships were called on to discuss the language which had been used elsewhere; but he nether knew where nor what the language was. The Noble Earl began, as he understood, by referring to certain public meetings, and where some observations had been made reflecting on the character of that House. He did not think the eharacter of their Lordships could secure any vindica- tion against observations made beyond its walls—(Hear, boa* He hardly knew what the Noble Earl alluded to, end he might be supposed not to feel so keenly as the Noble Earl for the honour of that House, of which be • (Lad flioderich) bad so recently become a member; but ac far as be could judge, by the feelings of a Geo • denim be could not conceive there was any occasioo far invoking the assistance of those with whom he was accustomed to act, in the discharge of his public duty. spinet the cornmentsof other individuals not connected with that part of the Legislature, and when it was nix' even stated where they bad been made. What had been stated by the Noble Lord on the Woolsack was perfectly consistent with the rules of the House; and to proceed according to them would be more agreeable to their Lordships, and more satisfactory to their feelings, than to endeavour, as the Noble Earl had done, even though be admitted it was irregular, to state circumstances in directly to their Lordship, and leave them to guess what was meant. The Noble Earl must feel that it would be impossible that the duty of both branches of to Legislature could be performed with any advantage to the public interests, if individuals indulged them selves perpetually in making comments of that sort.— There had been remarks made in that House on indivi duals in the other Howe of Parliament, imputing to' them sentiments they had never deliveted—(Hear, hear). He said, that imputations had been ascribed daring a late discussion, and remarks hat been made on individuals which were unfounded; and words had been put into their mouths which they had never utter ed, and which nobody had any authority for saying they ever did utter; and he was not di-posed therefore— at least, he was less disposed than the Noble Earl—to take up matter of that description with such warmth and vehemence as would render it impossible that pub tic busin.,ss should be carried on—(Hear, hear.) The LORD CHANCELLOR begged to set himself right with his Noble Friend. He did not say that his Noble Friend would do that indirectly he ought not to do directly. On the contrary, he had merely said, that' the course he was pursuing had that tendency, and he put it to him, knowing that be would not do it. Earl GREY expressed his concurrence with what bad fallen from the Noble Lord on the Woolsack. It certainly was the rule of the House that no allusion should be made to proceedings of the other House of Parliament; but in practice, deviations from this rule were repeatedly suffered. There were occasions on, which nu inconvenience wouhl arise from not adhering to the rule ; but, as to the rule. be entirely arced se. it the Noble Lord on the Woolsack But if st were convenient to allude to the discussion's in the other House of Parliament, there was nothing so inconvenient, so• dangerous, or so destructive to tAc character of both Houses of Parliament, and, consequently to the Con stitution of the counts y, as the practice which had lately grown up of questioning in idler .Hnase the motives of individuals acting in the discharge of their legislative duty. These was nothing more dangemns than gees. tioning the Motives for the decisions of individual, in such a matineras to cast reflections en either branch of the Legislature an the discharge of its duty. However ri g ht °sigma; such a practice, it was a treat fault— (hear, hear)--a fault which was aggravated and in creased by the certainty *tat it would produce retalia tion—Meer, btuaalj He trusted that . eare would taken.mbotp side*, -sot in future- to give that provo cation which had now taken place. The Noble toed i had stated Apt attacks had been made in that House. on a late occasion, on the other House . of ;went and that — w swis had been cited as used by ndividuals which had.never been need; he had heard, he admitted, severe terms applied to individuals in their capacity as Ministers, and the propriety of using hose terms must be judged of, in the first instance, by the persons using them, and subsequently by the pub. lic ; but as to the attacks on the other House of Par liament, he could not 'collect any. apd he should say, there had been none made during the late proceedings ; and if any improper imputations had beets made against individuals, they had escaped his (Earl Grey's) obser vation. As to the words mentioned by the Noble Lord, he did not know to what he alluded. though his state merit, at the beginning of his speech, of not knowing to what the Noble Earl near him (the Earl of Winchel seal-had alluded, seemed, by his reference to those words, not to be well founded; and the Noble Lord . (Lord Goderich) had not much difficulty in conjectur ing what was the particular object which called forth the animadversions of the Noble Earl. He did nut wish to allude more particularly to the subject; but if such discussions were again to occur, he did hope that the Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolsack would exert himself, and-no person could do it • with greater propriety and arith more interest, to -.sew the , bad effects—(Hear, hear) which such relleitions, coming from persons high in authority. must have; and which they above all mei', from their ,situation ind i their place, were bound to avoid—(Hear, hear). Aluch reflections, coming from persons in authority, struck at the vary csence end independence of esrliatnent, vilifying the character—more severely vi i• -Eying the character of thtat Houge;tfian he ever before recullected it to have been vilified by a person holding the situation of a Minister of State; using terms and expressions first applied to individuals, and next to all those who supported certain measures. tending to excite batted throughtnik tba &wintry against . , the character and proceedings id Pai l liansent, and used also when oa der the law as it nor stood, end as it had been madeby those who now used these tombs; a second offence mi ght end these persons into banishment. He trusted that the conduct which h id of late bees adopted *itb regard to one topic. tbou,ch it Mid been attended Wide bad effete'. would •not destroy the has mony between the two Houses, which, did it take place, would, be agreed with the Noble Viscount, put a stop to all the business of the Legislature. He hoped that care would be taken to inspire those with more caution who had been intem perate, and whose intemperance had provoked retalia tion—(Hear)—and caused all the mischief which had taken place. He had said j us much, not without due, deliberation on this insportt subject; and he would, express his hope, that the conduct and firmness of their Lordships would be such as to become the character of that House. The Marquis of LANSDOWN only rose for the par! pose of expressing his entire concurrence with what h fallen from all the Noble Lords, as to the propriety of not alluding to what occurred in the other House of Parliament; and if anything could have confirmed the conviction he entertained on th s subject, it was seeing that no person could take pa , t in such irsegularities, I and it was admitted they s , etc irregularities, who was not led, as his Noble Friend had been leil. woos-. scioosly. he was well aware, to indulge in resisals chit were opposed co the rule of n•rt altuding 10 what eis curred in the other House of Parliament. It was not, however, true, as his Noble Fri. nd seemed to think, that there was no way of alluding to opinions given out in 'another place. at least to such opinions as found their way into the record of the D ily Press; for though they could not take notice of what was said in the other House, whenever what passed thete was reported in the public papers, and they contained anything which was contrary to the dignity and privileges of that House, the regular course of proceeding-4 course which had been followed—was to call the printer of the paper to their Lordships bar, and compeltim them to state the grounds of his proceedings. He stated this at what had been done, and as the only regular and conven't's course which could be pursued for taking notice 01 what occurred ekes here—(f-fear, bear.) If Noble' Lords, however, thought he meafit to recommend that course on the present occasion—if they thought that he wasansious, whenever their Lordships felt particularly sensitive and sore at what appeared in the Daily Press, to recommend them to Osry this course into execu. tion, they were mistaken. He thought that it was far more consistent with the dignity of their Letdships. as individuals, and with the dignity of the House, that they should rely on their own character and proceed. ings to defend them against any imputations, than to enter upon every occasion into a sensitive and querulous inquiry. Before he sat down, he wished to confirm the statement of his Noble Friend as to the proceedings which had taken place in that House. Expressions had certainly been quoted in that House, and alleged to have been used in the other House, which never had been used, and which were calculated to throw * stigma on individuals for dischorgir.g their duty, and to bring' . discredit on the House—(Hear). His Noble Friend hid stated very accurately, be had no doubt, that he had not beard those expressions on a former occasion: but that only proved that his Noble Friend was more taken up with attending to the business of the House, than ioillfittiog all the s. °ids which might be used in debate, and he Ife , d, theirfne not heard th.)se precise words to which he would' not further allude, for the sake of harmony, dad which he wished might never More be alluded to. As an in dividual Member of that House, as well as in his other character, he could assure Iris Noble Friend, that he would take all the care in his power to prevent a course 'of allusions, which, he agreed with other Noble Lords, ought to be avoided on all occasions, as they were only calculated to etc to more angry feelings than there was any necessity, should enter into any of the discus. lions which arose in the discharge of their duty in Par. iiament. Lord ELLENBOROUGH thought there would be a want of consistency when they permitted the newspapers to publish rrports of the proceedings in Parliament, to call the printers and publi.bers of newspapers to their liar to viticricate their character. He could not agree with what the Noble blarciois had recommended on this subject. It was a principle, he thought, of great pro. piety and great utility, that no notice should be tak-n in either Huese of Parliament of w h it was said in the other. It was practically impossible that one Hous should interfere with the other. As to the feelings of Noble Lords at the observations which bad been made elsewhere, betook' say that he felt for them nothing but 'contempt, and that they were worthy of no otlo-r noCicr than a most contemptuous aflame. - The Mantois of LANSDOWN explained, thatire by -tm means recommended calling the printers of News papers to the bar: on the contrary, he deprecated such a course, except in cases of urgeat necessity. The Petition from Genet Marlow . against panting further con cessions to the Catholicl, was temo read. Toe Marquis of LONDONDERRY asked the Mar quis el Lansdnwn, if he would recommend the Right Hnn. Gentleman to publish his speech, that the exact words might be known? Viscount GODERICH hoped his Noble Friend would riot answer such I vestion. The Petition WAS then read and resetvel SOPOISS VASIL Viscount GODRRICH moved for Returns of the Quantity of Grain, Meal, and Flour, warehoused In this marry, up to the latest possible period..—ordered. Viscount DU DLEI and WA RD laid on the table some Re-1 turns relatively to the Secret Service Macey. Viscount GODERICH gave notice, that he shield move the second reading of the Corn Averag -4' all to-marrow, and moved that their Lordships be sunsmonstd.—Ordecad. The Dunbar Harbour Bill was read a third time and passed. The Disembodied Militia Bill, and several other Bills were for-, warded, one stage.—Adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Mr. ELLTSON presented a Petition from Neweastle-on-Tine, praying fora repeal of the Test and Corporation Acts.. Lord BINNING preseoted a Petition from the Faculty of Phy sicians and Surgeons of Glasgow, against certain restriction on their practice —Ordered to lie en the table. Mr. W A RBURTON presented a Petition from certain Mem bers of the C liege of Suramos, complaining of regulations which had been made by the Council, and which, In their opinion, tended to impede education: The Hoe,. Member said, that mile should have presently to move for certaip papers connected withelsis subject he should not advert in the contents of the Petition until then. Mr. SET HOUR presented a Petition from Taunton, In favour of the repeal of the Test and Corporation Arts. Mr. BRIGHT presented a similar Petition from i Chapel In Bristol Mr. PERCRVA L. presented an recount of Briefs issued for the repair of Churches and Chapels since the year 1790. Mr. WODEHOUSE moved for an account of the rat* of wages paid at the Royal Hospital at Greenwich fur *event years, since the year 17911. Mr. HUME presented a Petition front Robert Pollock, an Agency Broker, esstnplainhig of th. extortion practised by low Anoraks and Sheriff* Officers, and suggesting to the House that it would be a good thing if no Householder could be ar rested on omen* process for a less sum than £lOO. Also a pe. dos front a parish in the county of Galway against the large over grown and overpaid Church Establishment of Ireland, and praying that after it had been properly paid, the remainder of its revenues should be applied to state purposes. Mr. J. BROWNE, after detailing an attack which had been made epos higt at the, last aced** for Mayo moved, that an Mtn- Adte be presented to his Majesty, that there might be laid on the table of the House a copy of the details of an inquiry which * took place into the conduct of the PAW! of the county of Mirb respecting certain murders and other offences committed on the Beth of June last. After a few words from Mr. S. Boom, Mr. W. Lama, Lord Ateatose, and Sir J. Newsom:, the motion was negatived without a division. COLLZOI Or SUMMON.. Mr. WARBURTON rose to move for the production of certain papers connected with this establishment. In the year 1797 application was made by this Corpora. tion for an Act, which, amonr others, contained the extraordinary clause of securing to themselves the mo nopoly of lecturing on surgery. This clause was, how. ever, as it ought to have been, scouted. Ever since that time, however, they bad been endeavouring by by-laws to get this power secured to them, which had appeared so monstrous to Parliament; and the persons composing the council being for the most part connected with hospitals, found it their interest to support these by laws. They had passed a law by which they refused to acknowledge any othlr schools of surgery than those of London, Dublin, Edinbire. Glasgow, and• Aberdeen. If a 'person attended a provincial hospital, he must pro- duce a certificate of two years: if it should be a London hospital, one year was sufficient. Now two out of these five schools notoriously afforded no facilities for the study of anatomy, in consequence of the difficulty of obtaining subjects for dissection. There remained, therefore, only three schools for the study of anatomy. The College of Surgeons also refused to take any certificate of attendance at foreign schools, however distinguished they might be. Another ground of complaint was, that the Hunterian Museum and Library, which had been purchased for the College with the public money, were open to the public only for two days in the week. Then, again, there was no catalogue of the library, without which the library itself was nearly useless. He likewise under stood that some manuscripts left by Mr. Hunter had been voluntarily destroyed by fire,—a proceeding which required some explanation. The Hon. Member con cluded by moving for a return of all sums of money granted by Government to the College from 1799 to the present period, for the purchase of the Hunterian Museum, and for the repairs of the College; also for a return of the number of persons rejected upon examina tion; and likewise for a return of the receipts from fees and other sources, and expenditure of the College. Mr. W. SMITH said. he was aware that another Hon. Member had been requested to present the Peti tion which the Hon. Member had that evening brought under the notice of the Hoase; but he declined to do so, because he found upon inquiry that almost every charge preferred by the Petitioners rested upon no better foun dation than feelings of person.' pique—(Hear). He was convinced that whenever the investigation which was called for should take place, the College would sa tisfactorily rebut all the accusations which had been brought against them. As to what had fallen from the Hon. Member with respect to a catalogue, he could state from his own knowledge that Mr. Cliff, the distinguished anatomist, was preparing one—(Hear). Mr. PEEL said he was a trustee of the Honterian Museum, and in justice to the Council of the College, he was bound to state, that having, before he left office, discussed with them every complaint preferred in the petition, they professed their willingness to remove every one of them that appeared to be reasonable. He went over the complaints with the Council seriatim, and for some of those now preferred there no longer existed any foundation; for the grievances (real or sup• posed) bad at once been redressed—(Hear, hear) — One of the complaints regarded the entrance to the College by a particular door—one party asserting their right to enter by it, and another party disputing that right. He advised the Council w concede the point, and his advice was followed. With respect to the funds, he stated his opinion that they ought, like other great public bodies, to publish a quarterly ac• count of the monies received by thern, and of the manner in which they had been appropriated. The Council at once agreed to what he proposed.—(Hear.) A catalogue was being prepared by one of the most able men who could be selected for such a ta,k, and the work was already in a state of great forwardness. It was owing to the preparation of this catalogue that strangers were not admitted at present to the librar) oftener Than twice aseek; but the moment it was cum• owl,: be de. olvted, they woold he adm'tted four time. a week. T:,e examinations which toot place at the College were not maters of such light importance as the Hon. Memb er considered them. They were, in fact, very severe sou. tinier, and the instances of rejecti Ti were nu meruis. Th e examinations, too, were conducted openly, and n,,t i, 'The as the Honourable Member had alsverted. destruction of Mr. Hunter's manu r s 4 c , r . ip T ti ver The act, of that Gentleman's executor, who thought it essential to his fame that they stroyed. The Council wished to preserve them, but found that they had no legal power to intelfere...- The Right Hono.ir.ble Gentleman then read an extract from a memorial which had been drawn up i n favour of the College by Mr. Brodie, Mr. Davies, and Mr. Green, which spoke in the highct terms of approval of the manner in ss hick union was conducted. There was one point of p eal importance connected with this subject—he alluded le the difficulty of procuring subjects 1 r ..un• nnty, with Out which it was impo,sihle the science ci uld b e taught.. It was in vain to attempt to sup p l y the want of human subject, by figures formed rf w „ or wood. The ti fficulty of procuring subjects resuited from feelings which it was impossible not to respects particularly among the po.'rer classes. The subject was utmost importanc e his is eclucidio to t an e Pdn' l: one w hi c h h a d o ccupied much of hi s attent i on, because hi was aware that it constituted an obstacle t o t h e ad . human v a n ce mrea face of t e .... i sciences H e a r h o) A person d est i ne d for the r f the of receiving m i o v s n surgical • O r profession,Edinburgh,instea d ,he ar) was now compelled to resort to Paris for that purpose. Tile law, as it at present stood, by enacting that the bodies of murderers only should become subjects for dissection, encouraged the existing prejudices of the people. This was the opinion of an eminent surgeon, Mr. Hodson, who practised in the country, but was inferior to none of his competitors in talent. It had occurred to h'm that it would be an improvement of the present system to introduce an Act of Parliament to provide that the bodies of alt per. sons convicted of felonies, who should die in prisons, or other public establishments, should be delivered up for dissection—(Hear, hear). If this were considered an aggravation of punishment, it might, in the acknow. hedged difficulty of &Win a substitution for the puni s h. ment of death, be employed as a means of mitigating the severity of the Criminal Cede—(Hear). The lt.ght Hon. Gentleman concluded with expressing his inter'. Lion to secede to the motion, not because there was th e slightest ground of accusation against the College, but because he thought Parliament had is right to be in. formed of the proceedings of an institution which h a d received a grant of public money—(Hear). Sir J. YORKE suggested :he propriety of passing an Act of Parliament to allow people to sell their oan bodies, and those of their relatives. After a few words from Lord Biristso, Mr. H. Gut. sir, and Mr. S. Bou RNL the motion was agreed to. 1111 , SAGE TRO►t Tilt LORDS. A Message from the Lords announced their Lordships met to the Exchequer Bills Bill, the Consolidated Fend Bill, sod Nem! Private Bilis. SMALL DUSTS BILL. Mr. PEEL rote to move for leave to bring in a Bib to facilitate the recovery of small debts. He ok.eived, that under the existing law, the recovery of small debts was a matter of considerable difficulty. Toe manner Of proceeding in the County Courts for the recovery of 20s. or 40s. was the same as for the recovery of 10004 with this difference, that in the former case the plea was drawn with much more tech.iicality than in the latter. Then the expense was so considerable, that a person suing to recover 40s. would think himse lf happy if he got off at the cost of 71. in a defended anon, and 41. in one which was not defended. He proposed in the Bill which he intended to introduce, t eztead 'the jurisdiction of the County Courts to debts amoont• ing to 101. as was at present the system in the Lance. ehsre Courts. He likewise proposed to give the parties die benefit of the trial by Jury, but in cases of such a trifling nature he thought it unnecessary that the num• het of Jurors should extend to 12. though .t the same time he would submit that it should not be less than fire. He proposed that ao appeals shoul I be allowed; forht thought it better that injustice should be done in one or taro cases than that justice should be perpetually defeated by delays—(Hear !) When, however, it should be quite manifest that a wrong verdict had been given, he would reserve to the Sheriff the power of granting a new trial. in cases of particular difficulty, which the Sheriff might not feel himself competent to decide, he would atithoi tit him to obtain legal assistance, the cost of which could, I probably, be defrayed out of the fees which must be con. stantly.accruing.He thought it advisable that no c-uosel should be employed by the partii s, and that the attorney's costs should not exceed 10s. Fur the writ at present in use, he meant to substitute a simple summons, which would Contain the names and addles' of the plaintiff and de fendaat. He thought it would be very desirable togive the Court the poaer of directing the payment of a debt by instalments, instead of, as at present, proceeding at once to an execution, which almost always occ.sioned the ruin Of the party. Of course, if the u.stalmeuts were not regularly paid, a summary process must be resorted to. The main object of his Bill, the House would see, was to get rid of the practice of imptison• ing the person of the debtor, arid to assist the remedy against his property. In order to aid this object as far as possible, he meant to propose that the decree of execution from a County Court, which now only ex• tended to property lying in the county witl]in which the decree was issued, should apply to the debtor s property generally, no matter in what place it might be found. He thought it unnecessary even to re ply to the arguments which had been sometimes urged, that the increased facility thus given to the re covery of claims would tend to promote litigation: he did not believe that men would be disposed. eve" at the cost of time and money, which would still tie let, to prosecute claims ( which they would in all human probability lose) that was void of foundation. And he should, therefore, without troubling the House any fur. Cher, move that leave be given to bring ill a Bill to facilitate the recovery of small debts in the Courts of England and Wales. Mr. STURGES BOURNE seconded the motion, and said that the country was deeply indebted to the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Peel) kr his exertions. The ATTORNEY GENERAL supported the Bid, and was highly satisfied with the mantles in which the .Right Hon. Gentleman had proceeded to attain his purpose. In fact. the sum of 101. to which it WAS now proposed to extend the jurisdiction of the County Courts, was not greater in actual value than the 40 jiiiisdictioo when that had originally been given t.) them. He entirely agreed in the expediency of getting rid of the practice of imprisonment for dent, and sub touting facilitated course of proceeding .I .; %tirt the debturs s aroperty ; but he was ino 'es Ord _ J 'Rio tid chb -41 P°' WIN Gel Rai dist ariC that ceivi T Al) al Ce "es dace (mot Dllti letp toll Caul Shot An 111 1N,11 . 11. - • •••••• - inclined le Mink it alight be 1111 t •