Star. — London, England, 1827-06-13 00:00:00

transfer tha duties of the L/dfitisibil(akivulter offices, AM' readable that dice and its saki Mary. It should at the same time be remem . thi Y fflt7bough it became desirable to abolish a patent office tely, the existing holder of it had a Vested tlifhidid it his e. The tof ELDON said, that as the Other great gumbo , 4) 4 b 41 W over to the next Session, this one might also laugh). COM LAWS. Viscount OODERICH moved the Order of the Day for receiv ing the Report of their Lordships' Committee on the Corn Laws Amendment Rill. The Earl of 3ffervessuar hawk's brought up the Report with its amendments printed, Lord COLCHESTER said, that he objected to the policy of the measure, and to its leading provisions. He objected to its policy in po far that it tended to render this country's political situation more dependant on that of foreign countries—more dependant on other coun tries for the means of subsistence, means that might be cut off at any time and by any unexpected crisis. He objected to the policy of the Bill, in so far that it lowered the agricultural interests, and thus reduced the manufacturing interests of the country. It seemed to bear upon two classes of impoverished population, the starving labourer as well as the starving manufacturer •--(Hear, hear, hear). He feared its effect also on Ire land. It seemed to him that the present tendency of the Bill was to affect the growth of corn there; and in so doing, to take awai the money which would other wise go to that country ; and he would rather see that country subsist more on bread than on potatoes. If that were so, and that country thereby more supported from its own produce of corn than it at present was, the poorer class would be more active, industrious, and peaceful [ban they had hitherto been. With respect to the provisions of the Bill, if it was meant that the prices mentioned there should be the price of the corn, let it be made so. Let them do what they profess to do. They told the Aviculturists they would protect them—pro hibit, therefore, the importation of all foreign corn at a lower price than they were entitled to. He would affirm that no man would be able to, state the price or amount of quautity that would be imported, when once the market should be laid open to all the world. He thought that, in the Amendments, a most valuable principle had been suggested; and, if they meant to give the people of England that which they ought to have, let that Amendment be approved of. As to reci procity, it was pretended to give the agriculturists pro- tection by letting those who import corn have our manu factures, that was—they were bartering the interests of our agriculturists, which was a thing that ought never to be done. As to the present proceedings with this Bill before them, and sitting here to amend it, let them do their duty honestly, and amend it in such a manner as to make the measure the best to be adopted, else why did they sit there? He was well aware that there were technical difficulties elsewhere, and that those diffi culties were such as might not be got over. Now, they had better come to a plain understanding on that. Every one who was conversant with the history of Parliament, and had lead the Parliamentary Journals, might find that the House of Commons claimed rights which its Members bad uniformly insisted upon for at least one hundred and fifty years. One of their claims was against that House passing any Bills imposing duties. The H use of Lords had also claims distinct from those of the House of Commons, with respect to attainder and the stain of blood. Now the Commons bad recorded that they claimed the sole and undoubted right of be ginning all grants of money, of levying all duties, and of limiting, directing, and apeointing all the ends, pur poses, prohibitions, and qualifications of duties so im posed. Thus they stood then with respect to the House Of Commons, and when they thought it their duty to suggest certain amendments, they were told that it would be useless. He was not quite sure of that. They had declared that corn should not pay duty when im porteJ till it reached a certain point ; that was not all :1 there was another very important thing which respected the average prices. The Commons bad said that the average price. must be judged of every week; the Lords wished to have it every six weeks, in order to have a safer way of detecting fraud, and they had every reason to believe that that amendment, which was very ins poi tant, would be adopted. They must go on and do their duty. If they did so, and the House of Commons understood what was a good legislation, they would consider the amendments ; and if after consideration they thought they should be adopted, acd yet would not give up what they claimed as their privileges, they bad another course to pursue. They might bring in a new Bill, containing the substance of the old, with the additional clauses. This would be the best course which they could adopt, and by it they would give the country a law really likely to prove useful. With this prospect and with his sentiments respecting the provisions of the Bill, he should vote for the several amendments if they were pressed. The Report was then brought up, and received. It was them read, clause by clause, and several verbal alterations were agreed te. Oa the questloa that the amendment be agreed to, which pre. vided that no foreign Corn be admitted into the home market for twine consumption, whilst the average price was less than 665. Viscount GODERICH rose and said that be felt great difficulty in proposing the reconsideration of that amend ment which had been proposed in the Committee. He is sure that his Noble Friend (the Duke of Wellington) rho proposed that amendment, and their Lordships tenerally would do him the justice to think that he was tt induced to call on them from any other motive .ratever, than the most sincere conviction that the amendment was not calculated to effect what his Noble ;lend anticipated from its adoption; but that it had a tendency to aggravate the evils against which he in flded to provide. He assured their Lordships that is was his only motive for calling on them to recon 'der this amendment, and not to allow it to stand part the Bill. But before he said any thing as to the practical effects of the clause, he wished to make a few preliminary observations, with a view of setting his, Right Hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade 'id himself right with the House as to a misconception ito which his Noble Friend had fallen. His Noble riend had stated, in proposing his clause, that be did with the concurrence of his Right Hon. Friend ; and, undoubtedly, their Lordships must have been startled hen they saw him (Viscount Goderich) objecting to a lause sanctioned by his Right Hon. Friend the Presi or of the B hard of Trade. He had now on the part of .is Right Hon. Friend, distinctly to assure the tin, that he never intended to convey any acquiescence in that clause. the first place he had never seen it—the statement his Noble Friend was founded on an impression de. rived from a sentence in a letter written by his Right Hon. Friend to the Noble Duke. In that letter, his Right Hon. Friend was supposed to sanction the prin. 'epic of the Amendment ; but when the Noble Lords came to the consideration of that letter he had no doubt ‘f being able to convince them that his Right Hon. riend never meant to convey any approbation what-. .ver of it. Of this fact he could satisfy their Lordships, AM well as from a conversation which had since , lbw* between bins and a Right Honourable Ftle Brass from what had passed between his 'tight Honour ab. Friend and the Noble Doke, The fast was that his Node Frilled had written to the President bf the Board of Trade to Ask his concurrence in a clause, which, however, had not been proposed, as the Noble Duke had been satisfied by the reasons urged against it. He had, however, conceived, from the language of his 'Right Hon. Friend's letter, that he pointed out another course which it was far from his intention to recom mend.-' That letter commenced by adverting to the difficulty of introducing any amendments of that na tete, as he scarcely knew whether they could be adopt 'ed by the other House. He (Viscount Goderich) merely' mentioned this as the opinions of the individual, without calling on their •Lordships to be influenced in the slight est degree by it. It was competent to their Lordships to introduce any amendment they pleased into Bills sent up from the Commons, and it was equally competent to the other House to reject those amendments—(Hear, hear.) If an amendment was made in this House, it did not follow that the House of Commons should ac quiese in it, and his Noble Friend (Lord Colchester) was not entitled to assume, as a matter of course, that the Commons would agree to the amendments proposed, and send them up in the shape of another Bill. Before they did so they must agree to the spirit and effect of the amendment ; and for his part he (Lord ,Goderich) did not km)* upon what grounds, if competent,' beensuld recommend the other House to assent . to the amend ment—(Hear, hear.) As to the letter of his Right Hon. Friend, the President of the Board of Trade, it set out by stating that he would be willing to agree to, reasonable amendments in the Upper House, vi6ith would satisfy those Noble Lords who opposed the. Bill, so that those amendments would not involve the exist ence of the measure on 'its return to the Lower House. His Right Hon. Friend had no objection that no corn should be admitted till the average price should reach silty-six shillings, and that all corn to be bonded after wards should come under the regulation of the He (Lord Goderich) could assign no other pouible meaning to this declaration of his Right Hon. Friend's opinion, than that the restriction sin uld only be 'tem porary instead of permanent, as the amendment of the Noble Duke had made it, so as to insure that no, quantity beyond that in bond should be thrown upon the public unless corn attained a price which shewed that a foreign supply was wanted. He could nit give any other construction to the words of his Right Hun. Friend than that he contemplated a restriction merely pea leac vice, till the bonded corn should have been got rid of.— At the end of his letter, his Right Hon. Ftiepd again adverted to those technical difficul.ies to Which it was very fair that he should advert, as the duty of recommending any amendment which might be intro duced, and of which he might Approve, would devolve upon him in the other House. Alluding to those, his Right Hon: Friend bad said, that " he was afraid that even such an amendment must prove fatal to the Bill.* It appeared, therefore, that his Right Hon. Faced had expressed his readiness to acquiesce in something which was not what the Noble Duke had proposed, and that he had not even concealed from him that such a course might be fatal to the Bill. The day before the Com mittee on the Bill, he (Lord Goderich) had accidentally heard that his Noble Friend intended to propose a clause sanctioned by the President of the Board of Trade. Not having heard of any such sanctioa being given, he had applied to his Right Hon. Friend to know the meaning of that report. His Right Hon. Friend immediately wrote that the report must have arisen from a communication in which the Noble Duke had submitted a proposition to him, which he had succeeded in convincing him was inexpedient. He (Lord G.) had then seen his Right Hon. Friend, and they had discussed together the possibility of introducing any Amendment of that kind. His Right Honourable Friend had no copy of his letter to the Noble Duke ; but he explained the sense of it in the manner which he (Lord Goderich) had just done to their Lordships, and they had tried to frame a clause which would pro hac vice produce a qua lified admission of fo:eign corn. When in the Committee. the Noble Duke had communicated to him (Lord G.) both his clause and the letter of his Right Hon. Friend. Not having seen either before, it was not in his power at such a time to give a very close attention to the wording of the clause, but it appeared to him that it tended to provide a permanent restriction on ware housing, to which he could not consent, and he believed he had expressed himself to that effect to his Noble Friend. He thought he had now defended his Right Hon. Friend from the charge of being willing at one time to agree to an amendme ,t, against which he had afterwards objected. He hoped he had also cleared himself from the imputation that from caprice, or any other motive but an adherence to the principles of the Bill he had opposed an amendment, which must be fatal to it. It was now his duty to state the grounds on which he did not think that the amendment would be for the good of those in whose behalf it had been intro duced. In the first instance, the change produced by the amendment was contrary to the principle on which the Bill was founded ; but he did not oppose it solely on this ground, it might be an exception to the principle, and still good in itself, but be contended it was intrin sically bad. His Noble Friend said, that when he bad a seat in his Majesty's Councils he had agreed to the principle of the Bill, but was not answerable for its de tails, never, in fact, having seen it till it came into their . Lordships' House. He (Lord Goderich) would not in quire why his Noble Friend had not seen the Bill, as it' had been printed, and its details had been discussed by his Majetty's servants, before his Noble Friend withdrew from the Cabinet—(Hear, hear It Several clauses were proposed, to which he was sure he could draw his Noble Friend's recollection.—Diere the Duke of Wel lington was understood to give a sign of assentl. There was the reciprocity clause, which originally did not form pelt of the Bill, but had been in troduced into it in consequence of a discussion amongst his Majesty's Servants. He should also call to the recollection of the Noble Duke the resolutions on which the Bill was founded. The amendment was a direct departure from the first of those resolutions. For it was- to this effect :—" That any sort of corn, grain, meal, or fl )ur shall at all times be admissible for home use on payment of certain duties." The resolation said that they should be admitted at all times, whereas his Noble Friend's amendment denied admission alto gether, until a special contingency had taken place.— The intent of the resolution in fact was, to abolish pro hibition entirely, and that of the amendment was to re vtablish it. This also explained why the words" at all times" had been deemed so portentous, and why there had been a wish that they should be expunged. The object of the amendment, he understood, was to guard against two evils. It was to prevent the warehousing system from giving facilities to fraud in the averages, and if frauds were effected, to diminish their mit. ichievous effects, by preventing a glut of Corn on its first importation. Now as to the first, he was at a loss to conceive how dealing with Corn in Bond could have any effect on the averages. For the averages were not made up by sales of corn in bond. They never came into the averages at all; and if they could possibly come there, the only way in which they could tell would be to lower the price, and therefore to raise the duty, and increase the protection to agriculturists. It was, consequently, impossible that the holders of corn in bend should com mit frauds in the averages, with the view of lowering the duty. But if the clauses of the Noble Duke were adopted, it would become the interest of every indivi dual holder to strain every nerve, and to make every sacrifice, to affect the averages, in order to release the corn in bond—(Hear, hear.) One million of quarters might hate accumulated in the warehouses, and if those persons whose interest it was succeeded in throning 1 them open, all that flood would be poured at once un controuled upon the home market at a duty of only ten shillings, and would produce that very. evil which the clause was intended to prevent. Nothing was more likely than that the holders of bonded corn should endeavour, by an expenditure of several thou sand pounds in purchasing British corn, to raiseits price , so as to release their own, for it would be better for them to sacrifice part of their profit than to lose the whole. Another evil effect likely to be produced by the clause, would be to put an end to the warehousing system altogether—(Cheers from.the Opposition). He, did not wonder that those who wished to abolish the, warehousing system should be disposed to vote-for the Amendment; but. if he should be able to satisfy the House that such would be the effect, the clause, his Noble Friend could not consistently vote for ir, though his own, for he had declared that he did not wish the destruction of that system. Suppose that clause to re main part of the 13.11, and that at certain periods of the year there should be indications of a rise in prices, il l would operate as a great bonus or stimulus to the owners of corn.on the other side of the water to bring, in their corn srs'ils to keep the corn in bond out of the market by lowering the price. But what would the owners of bonded corn do? They would re-export their corn to Antwerp or to Holland and bring it back in a day or two, preferring incurring that ex pense to utter ruin. But could it be expected that they would be such fools as ever to bond their corn? No; and the system *could be extinguished. He had the authority of his Noble Friend, he had that of the Earl of Liverpool and of the most experienced men in favour of that system. It had been declared essential to the interest of the country by the law of 1773, and again in 1791. It was not therefore one of the innovations with which they were charged. In many cases the people might be exposed to starvation if it were not for that system. He knew that many Noble Friends of his on the other side of the House would, with the greatest pleasure, give up the very name of warehouses, but they ought to consider whether a measure which would shut out a resource in time of scarcity could be calcu lated to promote the interests of the country. Those who contended that agriculture was hurt by that sys tem were deeply mistaken. Its abolition would force the owners of corn on the other side of the water to send it at all times to this country, and how would it come? Not in British, but in Dutch or Flemish vessels, for there would be no time to send a ship from England to bring corn over, and they would take good care to have vessels prepared. He was in fact convinced that if the present clause were main tained, and the warehousing system abolished, not one quarter of foreign corn would in future be imported into this country in a British ship. He knew n had been told that he had given a party air to the question; when he had originally proposed it, he had done every thing in his power to prevent the expression of any party feeling, and in the whole discussion he trusted that he had not manifested a feeling of that kind— (Hear, hear.) He expressed what he felt in the plainest way that he could. He had for many years been concerned in matters which had brought the subject.is question under his cognizance, and be would not b slow in applying the little experience which he had to the consideration of the question. He had done so, and if he could believe that the amendment could have any other but a pernicious effect, no consideration personal to himself, no fear of being twitted for incon sistency, or of raising a storm against him, should induce him to withhold his assent from the clause. As he did not think it beneficial, he should oppose it. The Duke of WELLINGTON was far from wishing to blame his Noble Friend, or his Right Hon. Friend, for not agreeing to the amendment which , he had proposed. He admitted that it was founded on a mis apprehension of the meaning of the letter of the Presi dent of the Board of Trade, upon which he had not en tered into aby verbal criticitm. Considering himself a party to the measure, he bsd thought proper to propose an amendment to his Right Hon. Friend, who had ob jected to it, and as he (the Noble Duke) understood, had suggested another. In proposing the clause which bad been adopted, he conceived that he had carried into effect the intentions of his Right Honourable Friend. - All he could say was, that he was much concerned that be had misunderstood his Right Hon. Friend. The error was in misunderstanding, and not from any desire on his pan to propose any thing contrary to the views of the authors of the measure. He understood from the letter of his Right Honourable Friend, that there was Only a chance, and an apprehension that the measure might be lost. His Noble Friend (Viscount Goderich) bad on the night of the Committee stated to him, that he thought he had misunderstood the intentions of his Right Honourable Friend respecting bonded corn. He (the Noble Duke) had entreated his Noble Friend (Go derich) to read the letter of the President of the Board of Trade attentively, and his Noble Friend having re turned it without making any additional observat•ops, ' he (the Noble Duke) conceived that his Noble Friend had been convinced, and that in proposing his clause he was only carrying into effect the views of his Ma., jesty's Ministers; the contrary becoming obvious only when he found himself opposed by those with whom he had been in the habit of acting in concert. The main object of his clause was to place a check on the ware housing system, and to prevent the operation of fraud committed in the averages. The only means to commit fraud in the averages was by laying out capital in the purchase of British corn to raise the average, and then come to the warehouses and get all that should be wanted. This was the principle on which he had proposed his clause. His Grace here re ferred to the state of the law since the year 1791. The Act of that year established that the duty up to a certain price should be 24 shillings; that up to another certain price the duty should be half a crown; and then that in, - Main circumstances it should be only sixpence. Bit by this Act wheat in warehouse and under bond, whether subject to the highest duty, to the middle duty, or to the duty of sixpence, was, when withdrawn From bond and introduced into consumption, chargeable with an additional duty of half a crown. This l aw remained in force till the year 1815, and thus constan t ly a d ded to the heavy charges of warehousing an addition a l h a lf crown of duty. Laying an additional duty upon w ate hnn se d corn was perhaps the most effectual method o f prevent h. He neve r had this v. He had iligl iet but w me d now, thin h something most necessity gone esiit be done wi t h through t h e princainpyaldtesopireicstoofdtebeeaNt the le Bills spee if th e e Nobleb o d ill, and would pledge himself to effect something upo n i h e pt i o• ciple of the former Act, he would not be indisposed to withdraw his amendment. His Grace concluded by again disclaiming any intention to obstruct the passing of the Act. Lord HOLLAND considered the amendment sn consistent with the whole principle of the measure, that he should , have thought it impossible for a Committee of the same House which sanctioned the Bill to have agreed to it. It was an amendment which had it pro. ceeded from any other gust ter he should have believed to proceed from an intention to defeat the measure.-- lint the Noble Duke professed to be friendly to the principle of the Bill, and he was quite disposed to give him credit. It was, however, he (Lord Holland) thought by aome scholastic distinction only that he could satisfy himself of the consistency of bis amendment with the feeling he professed. The amendment in fact separated the watt frost the body of the Bill, and reminded hiss of a couplet which be had heard applied to the metaphysical disputations respecting matter and spirit— " Tbose distinctions so nice can be scarce understood, They who wish to divide as can mean as no good." The Noble Duke, with all his attachment to the must be startled when he saw the Noble and Learned the e expulsion of allth the of wa sß valuableisopsfrom in Lord who had so manfully opposed it, who rieis e d i t sandas the dreadful spectre of free trade, and who expect e d oir.nritlsntrastitiuntionthe overthrow that House; he must have been startled when h e f oun i that Noble and Learned Lord hail this amendment upon a Bill to which he was irreconcileably opposed.... upon a Bill, the offspring of an Administration of which the Noble Duke was himself a Member, as a great ad vantage. And in the same manner the support of the Noble Lord in the Green Ribbon, who had met the Bill with nntompromising hostility, must have greatly startled him ; and then the shisut of triumph which. unusual and almost unprecedented as it was in that House, had proceeded from the opponents of the Bill, when the Noble Duke had prevailed upon the Committee to adopt his amendment. If the Noble Duke construed these circumstances as he did, they would induce him as a friend to the measure to withdrew his amendment. He now begged leave to refer to the Resolutions upon which the Bill was founded (it was observed here by some Noble Lord that these were not Resolutions of f -that House) ;he knew that they weenie, but the Noble Lord had referred to them, and had said that he was responsible for them, it could not therefore be irregular for him to notice them. They purported that the different kinds of grain and flour should at all times be admitted for consumption. Now, the amend ment said that they should not at all timer be Es ad mitted. Could anything be more contradictory ? The amendment was at variance *ith the letter of the Resolutions, and it was equally subverive of the principle of the Bill ; that principle he understood to be the substitution of a graduated scale of duty is lieu of prohibition. Now, what was the object of the amendment ?—it was pro Moto adverse to this principle of the Bill, for it was to bring back all the corn in bond or hereafter to be bonded, under the operation of the former principle. This amend ment they were therefore bound, with regard to the con• sistency of their votes, to rescind. The Noble Lord proceeded to enforce his opinion, that the Amendment must have the effect either of destroying the ware• housing system altogether, or that of increasing the quantity of corn in warehouse, and thus increasing the danger of a sudden and excessive influx of corn. if it was intended to put down the warehousing system, he would resist it, because it was unjust, impolitic, and disingenuous. The Noble Lord then proceeded to illustrate these charges against the measure by a variety of arguments. But the Noble Lord' said that it wu not intended to destroy the warehousing system. Then, he should say, why alter it ? This was to produce the certainty of frequent scarcities and gluts, by keeping the warehouses alternately open and shot. If he were into. cal to the measure, and desired to get rid of it by aside• wind, he did not say that he should have so much rime as to resist the amendment. If the Noble Duke would walk down the benches and condescend to consult those who had voted on the last evening for his amendment, he would find that they were all enemies to the Bill. fie deprecated the protraction of the measure to which chi amendment was likely to lead, as without meaning to appeal to popular clamour, he thought the present pe riod of tranquillity exceedingly propitious to the final settlement of the question. At a more anxious and go. settled period no Bill equally favourable to the landed interest could be introduced. -It would be wise on their part, therefore,to take the present offer as more favourable than any which was likely to be made to them hereafter. Lord BATHURST asserted his right to consider any amendment which might be proposed, and he did nqt see in that case under the consideration of the House any thing so inimical to the principle of the me asure as to preclude him from exercising that privilege. The only .difference between the proposition of the Right Hon. the President of the Board of Trade, and that of the Noble Duke, was, that the former was temporary, and the latter permanent. Therefore all the objections w h ich could be urged against the amendment applied with equal force to the proposition of that Right Honourable Gentleman so long as it remained in force. Was i t ob jected that the amendment preserved the principle of prohibition ? The same objection applied to the pro position of the President of the Board of Trade. as it objected to the amendment that it militated aeo'n'' the warehousing system ?—Again, the same *Armen applied to the proposition of the President of the Board of Trade; and if it was objected that the amendment fixed the price at which foreign corn might be with drawn from the warehouses too high, th e same objec: non would be found equally applicable to the propon tion of the Right Honourable Gentleman. If the &cm. panty between the resolution and the amendment were insisted, inasmuch as the resolutions said that corn might at all times be taken out of warehouse—the same in consistency would be found in the proposition of the Right Hon. the President of the Board of Trade. The, what was the proposition of the Right Hon. Gentleman• It was that corn should not be taken out of warehouse i 1 boa duff neei • wai . • I whi gen 1 If not I whi I AM Fel ten ten thii side • of , . . . pra i pre 1- i 1 i ' Ril I . an( . . inti Fri so un wh clii di his net In . of Tie/ Ni Ri, i i . car i$ Cali of Fri evo . . , • i,l t.I . ~ ', +... ‘7 % .. .. .. .