Star. — London, England, 1813-03-23 00:00:00

1 ~: PARLIAMEATARr PlcucEENAras. HOUSE OF 1.0RD3, MARCH 22. . The judgmeru of iheTotirts below ; in the case of the East In tUa Company and Antrolius, was affirmed. The case of Bateman v. the Countess of Ross, stood over for '1 he Marquis of STAFFORD pry:tilted a Petition from Wol verhampton against the liar: India Monopoiy. The Duke of SUSSEX presented a Petit= from the Trader. itscl Householders of the Tower Hamlets district, in favour of the Monopoly. The Blyhni of RAPHOE presented a Petition from the Cor poration of Londonderry (we believe) aga'nn the Catholic Claims. Lord GRLY presented a Petition from the English Roman Catholics. His Lordship, in an address of some length, con gtatutated the House on the spirit which . was_prevalept in the ousting on the subject of the PeCtion which he then offered. Ail animosity to its objects had died away; fair discussion was ready to glee the boon which Was once refused by cowardly pre judice. •'1 he meeting at Which the Petition. was framed was bithly respectable, Lord Cl tfOrd being in the Chair; Lords Ern ham acd . Shrewibury were among the subscribers; it asked, in general, for the abolaion of all disqualifications arising from re ligious opinion. This, Lord 'Grey observed, war to be consi dered as a lull answer to those who charged the Cathtilics with wishing to depress the rights of ether sects. Lord BORINGDQN coincided with the sentiments expressed by the Noble Lord (Grey).—The Petition was thenieceive& PRINCESS OF WALES. Lord ELLENBO ROUGH commenced bysaying, that he had to trouble their Lordships on an occa sion, in which many motives concurred to make him come forward reluctantly: The House would un derstand, that the circumstance to which he alluded, was connected with the Mention of individuals whom his respect would not allow him lightly to name. He was aware, that in coming forth to clear himself, there might be an imputation of weakness and irritation under the charge which forced him forward ; but then it was necessary that trttth should be told : there were cases, in which all of respect that we could feel for general epiaion,—all of credit that we could claim with the world,—all honour and propriety urged us on exculpation. Another reason still might retard him,---Ie was a Privy Councillor : going into a question of this nature night seem to involve a dc. reliction of his duty ; but he trusted nothing shoul.l so far ,make him forget that duty, as to touch upon matters by whose disclosure it Might be impaited. Hut the character of his Noble 'Colleagues must not be left to suffer through his silence. They were all placed in the strange and hard situation where they must be condemned unheard, or look for an imperfect vindication by the scantiness of their right to explain. I3ut nothing should prevent him giving the fullest de nial.to the calumny in question,—that foulest, basest, and most malignant calumny that could have been thrown out against men in the situation which he and his Noble Colleagues had held. It would be remem bered, that Some years since his Majesty had been ad vised to issue a Commissicn for an Inquiry into mat ters which involved son:e eminent persons in this country. In that Commission his (Lord Ellenbo rough's) name was inserted, without his knowing any thing of the matter. Once engaged by his Majesty's. command, •he did his duty to the best of \ his power. But it was in the performance of that duty that some person, with the most abandoned and detestable slan der, had dared to charge him with a gross act of dis honesty ; him, - on whose character for integrity, dili gence, and care, depended more of the property and interests of the people than on those of any other man in the country ; yet of him, it was foully and slan derously alleged, that he had falsified the evideime given bef, re the Commission, giving in as a docu ment, (vitarice that was not received, and suppressing that which was actually given. This was all a lie,—a vile slander,—Ali false as Hell. He would not vio late the propriety of that Hsuse ; he knew the respect and the decency which it requited ; but he must give the lie to falsehood. He should now trouble the House with a short statement of facts. In the course of the enquiry. his Noble Colleagues thought it pro ( per to have some person to take down and arrange the evidence. His Majesty's Solicitor-General at that I time, (Sir Samuel Roii.illy,) was the person fixed on. One evening t.i.e Commission having met, and tht witnesses be.ng in attendance, it was thought better not to defer the examination, and lose the evening, i though from some circumstance or other Sir Samuel Itointily was not in attendance. The messenger sent for him could not find him, and the examination pro ceeded. 'I ho Commissioners requested, that he i (Lord Ellenborough), as he had been in the habit of taking down evidence, and probably took down in the year twice as much as any man in the kingdom, should take down the evidence of the witnesses in at • tendance. He declared upon the most sacred asst. aeration that could be made,—the most solemn sane tion of an oath,—ttiat every word of that deposition ii came film the lips of the witness in question,—thlt every word of it was read over to her,—if not pare ,l gropli by paragraph, as it was taken down, certainly • ail alter it was taken,—and every sheet signed with her name. if it would not be going into the particular disclosure, which mAlling could induce him to allow . or advise, the bare inspection of the paper would be enough to show that fabrication was impossible.— ed- i lt was full of interlineations, the 'mind of the party was expressed in . its language—any man might have !, seep, in its changes and cotrections, that the deposi tion went to ascertain the lull meaning of the witness, and could not have been the work of him, or the other Commissioners. He might, at least, from his station, take the credit of laborious accuracy ; etad he would venture to say, that not one word was in tnat written deposition which had not been spoken! by the witness. But how absurd'. was the charge ? SVeuld his Noble Colleagues have suffered him to vitiate the evidence? Would they have allowed him ' to set down a word on the paper which was not de posed by the witness? He had every reason, from ' the most perfect recollection, to say, that the paper in question contained the whole evidence—and no. thing but the evidence of the witness. Their Lord ships would forgive him for those repetitions ; but when they sliewed so just a jealousy of thi reputa tion of their body—when h was so important that his (Lord Ellenborough's) integrity theadd stand without suspicion, from the multitude of interests connected with it—their Lordships could not • bhune him for standing forth to repel in the strongest marl. ner so base and impudent, and miscreant an in:pu. teams (Hear, hear). Nay, the thing was foolish as well as wicked. It was despicable Irons its very ! stupidity. It charged hint with putties leading r questions. Now what was the case in which leading i eaestions could be put i It was, where there were ) edntencling parties and leading tplestions %vete only improper when the Counsel might be suspected of in structing his own witness. But the Judge had a right , to put any question whicli appeared to him likery to elucidate the truth. There was another ease, when the witness was adverse ; but here the rule had Its exceptions, and nothing to be derived from it could I impeach te putting of any questions by Commis siOners, who cola have had no object but the truth. It remained for this stupid and cursed impudence.— for impudence was a curse—to add another query, and gravely demand why the examination had not been written in question and answer ? But was there a man grey-headed in the law who had ever heard of such a tiling ? If the whole of the facts could be detailed, no prejudice on the subject could lie on the minds of the public for an instant. But as a Privy Councillor he could not address the Prince Regent for that purpose. (Hear, hear). One of the most alarming symptoms of the age was, that brutal and' savage indifference with which men threw About slan der at the highest characters : this was 41 tossing firebrands," and then saying, e am I not in sport P' But in the whole transaction, he and the Noble Com missioners, he must be allowed to say, felt, not per fect indifference, (for who could feel indifference ?) but a single desire to do their duty (Hear, hear). I He was sorry to have so far troubled the House.— His purpose was not to vindicate, but exculpatory. For whatever pupishment the offence might call, he would call for none ; he was only desirous to stand unimpeached in the opinion of the country, and honest in the eyes of his fejlow men.—(Hear, hear). Lord ERSKINE was one of the Commissioners, and felt the importance of having the character of high Magistrates clear in the public eye. But he should have thought, that there could scarcely be a necessity for vindicating himself from the imputa tions of the night; he should have thought that his professional, character—his situation in life—the rank he had held—might have.been enough to wipe away every stigma. The Commissioners had to complain, that if they had done justice, justice bad not been date them they were accused of improper dealings with the paper of the evidence ; but, as his Noble Friend (Lord Ellcnborough) said, this 'was not only the assumption of a false fact, but the false,l confused, add arbitrary conception of a misunder stood rule ; a rule, which, if adopted, would go to shake the foundations of property, and even the se curity of life in this country. If the Magistrates were not permitted to put leading questions to wit nesses, the most fatal consequences might follow. But if the slander was intended to convey an impu tation that he was guilty of any fabrication of the evidence, he thought that it ought to be almost a sufficient protection against such a charge, that he and the Noble Commissioners were prevented from appealing to fact. (Hear, hear). But with the Noble Lord (Ellenborough), who had spoken so eloquently on the subject, be.must retort the calumny, and ear nestly desire that the whole of his conduct on the , occasion might be fully laid open. Lord GRENVILLE, after what was said by his ' Noble Friends, could not sit silent. He confessed that it was not in conformity to his own feelings that he rose ; in the cruel and hard situation in which he was placed. He knew his duty to the country, to the Sovereign, and to the family of tl.e Sovereign, too well to suffer him to break in upon the confie dente reposed in him. Such a discussion would. produce nothing but the most complete confusion ; and this he felt too strongly to suffer a word in viola tion of that confidence to escape his lips. He would endeavour to follow the example of the Noble Lords who had spoken, and, with their discretion, attempt to vindicate his share in the transaction. But he was placed in a hard situation. His very necessity of vindicating himself was hard. He ought to be released from all reserve before he attempted it. He was now callial on to plead in chains. This was what the-feeling of British justice could not require. By the humanity of our law, the fetters were struck off, before the trial could commence; but here there was no release, an d he must plead with the fetters still on. He confessed that he suffered under another feeling, in anisrering such a charge. The bare circumstance of replying to an accusation of filsifying and fabri cating evidence, if a man had the least spark of ho nourable feeling, must appear to him no inconsider able degradation. He could not think that they were called upon, by such an accusation as this, to make any defence. There must be the strongest presump tion—there must be proof, before any one ought to have it imposed upon him—to plead not guilty to the basest and foulest charge that could be preferred against the vilest of mankind. It was about seven years since he had been entrusted by his Sovereign with the most important duty to which this accusa tion referred—it was a duty imposed upon him, for no man would be frantic enough to desire to have it to fulfil. This duty bad been entrusted to him with expressions of personal confidence from his Sovereign, which be should never forget, and which he hoped r.o part of his conduct in the course of the business had forfeited. He had been appointed, in conjunc tion with his two NobleFrientes, the LurdChancellor (Erskine), and the Secretary of State for the Home Departrueut (Spencer). They had been named by 'his Majesty, of his own motion, without any sugges. lion from him. But he hoped he gave no b4ht indi , cation of the integrity of the manner in wlech he irt ' tended to perforne.that duty, when lie suggested that it would be desirable for them to have the assistance of the Lord Chief Justice of England. No man could believe that if any improper thought had shot across his mind, the Lord Chief Justice should have been the person selected by him as his associate.— He was farther anxious to say—because it contra dicted many infamous falsehoods, not of the present day only.-that he never knew of the subject to which the duty in question related, tillit was formally com municated to him preparatory to its being brought ' before him officially. Till within a very few days before the signature of the warrant, he had never bard that there was a rumour, insinuation, or suspi. 1 eon on the subject. So far was it from being true, that' he had been biassed by any political engage meets : there was as little foundation for this, as tor he kuew nut how many other falsehoods. His Noble Friends, he believed, were not ignorant, and he him self was certainly well aware, that the task they had to perform was one of great difficulty. Nothing but a sense of duty could rase prevailed upon him to undertake it. He knew that they were subjecting themselves to obloquy and slander, from. power on tinetide, troth tadttnn oft the oth They et had thsfinfore, no protection belt in the undeviatingrecti tude of their conduct, and to that alone they looket for protection. He did not intend to enter into s narrative of the manner in which the office had been executed. He was prevented from doing so, not merely by the form, hat by the substance and essence of his oath. He could not state the questions and the answers, and argue noire the effect and bearing of each, without sacrificing to his personal gratifica tion in this particular, the consciousness which he now had of not having swerved in the whole course of proceeding from the ttrictest rectitude. If he were to enter upon the subject, and lay the whole before their Lordships, he was convinced that he should go home justified in their opinion from this imputation; ' but he should go home loaded with a sense of demi ' sit, as great as that from which he had relieved him self. He attached different degrees of importance :to different calumnies. If he should be assailed on the ground of want of forAality in the proceedings, he left the matter to those who thought themselves better lawyers than LordsEllenborough and Erskine, end Sir Samuel Romilly. If these great luminaries of the law should be proved to have erred, he should not blush to own that he had participated in the .error. But he did not. wish to shelter himself under the authority of their great names. He confidently asserted, that when the time came when the subject 'could fairly come into discussi.in, every thing would 24year - to have been done correctly in the course of ate examination. He spoke of the subject as it would appear upon the face of the authentic documents, • not as it might be collected from pocket narratives, fabricated he knew not when- -concealed for seven years he 'mew not where—and aow brought forward -to blast the characters of those who might, by possi bility, have been left without any means of defence : but as long as there was a spark of justice remaining the very meanest of mankind could not be condem ned on such a production. By such evidence they ought not to be tried or condemned. If upon the. original examinations, authentie-md by the signa tees of the Commissioners and the witnessel, it should appear that there was any thing liable to ob jection, he admitted that they must abide by the con sequences. Before it was possible to discuss the subject. with any chance of arriving at an accurate conclusion, it was necessary they should have the whole of the documents produced ; and upon these terms he should be ready, as far as he was personally concerned, at any time to come to his trial, He trusted, however, that neither he nor his Noble Col leagues would do any thing that should look like a violation of confidence • a fault so characteristic of the present time, and which threatened the most. mis chievous consequences. If the judgment of Patlia- 1 ment and the public should be .Ig4inst thein on the point of form, it would give him undoubtedly a painful feeling : but this was nothing compared to the storm of indignation which he felt at being accused, together with his Noble Friends, of the foulest crime with which any hurnan being could be charged. They had no means of knowing what had been said, except from rumcur ; but what ever had been said, he knew the impression wi.ich had been produced on the minds of his friends. The charge was, that they had substituted in the re: m ot the original Minute a fabricated Minute, differ ent in form and purport, anti leading to a different conclusion from the original authentic Minute.— That tlitre was one Minute, consisting of question and answer, which was the real one—that them was another which was forged, and falsely reported to be authentic. It might havehappened,that at the distance of seven years they could have nothing but assertion to oppose to as base an imagination as ever was har boured by man—but he thanked God they were not. , left in this situation. Their defence. existed in the original Minute, in the hand-writing of the Chief Jus tice, in the very words and form 111 Which the evi- • deuce was given by the witness. It was taken down by his Noble and Learned Friend, at the time men tioned in the document, in the presence of the wit ness—read to the witness certainly—he believed read by the witness. This was the only Minute—it was not in the form of question and answer ; and upon the face of the Minute itself there were various ' corrections, so as to make it convey exactly the sense and meaning of the witness. He could not have instructed Sir S. Romilly how to have taken'a Deposition. If he had felt it a difficulty, be should rather have applied to Sir S. Romilly. In the absence of Sir Samuel Romilly, who could he more properly fixed upon to take down the evidence than the Chief Justice of England, who was, of all others, the most peculiarly conversant with taking down evidence, upon whose accuracy in the discharge of this duty, as he himself had stated, the property and lives of the subject might depend ? Hitherto his conduct bad been unimpeached in the discharge of his duty, and he hoped, this would not be the case in which he should be found to have prostituted his function, his station, and his character. His Lordship con cluded by expressing his regret, that they had been compelled to adopt this course to refute the calumny, and to do any thing that might appear to have a ten dency to provoke disciitsion upon a subjt c:, in regard to which it was of the last importance that discussion should, if possible, be avoided. Earl SPENCER deeply regretted that any thing 1 should have occurred to render it necessary to men tion the subject at all to their Lor;lthips ; but, how ever sensible he might be of the public inconvenience of such a proceeding, he could not, after what had passed, refrain from saying a few words. It would be in vain for'him to attempt to say any thing for the purpose of enforcing what had already been said by his Noble Friends. He had only to obwrve, that he completely adhered to ail that they had uttered—and that he perfectly agreed with them in the feelings they had expressed. He could not but feel ashamed at being called upon to defend !liaised against a charge of being concerned in one of the foulest con spiracies that was ever ascribed to man. If they had been guilty of any thing like it, they would have been unworthy, not only ot addressing their Lordships, but of being admitted into any respectable society whatever. He would, however, content himself at present with declaring, upon the honour of a Peer, and the faith of a Gentleman, that what , his Noble krieuds had stated was perfectly collect and accu rate. Nothing could be more agreeable to him than that this affair should be investigated in a Court bt Justice. They were only prevented by reasons of public policy from completely convincing their Lord- i , : shlol, hut the public) tit the Injustice that hal been done them. Earl MOIRA Was anxious to take this op.ortu. dity of clearing himself from certain charges of a different nature from those which had been made against his Noble Friends. He had felt the delicacy of the subject, and the strong reasons for avoid;ng all mention of the subject in Parliament—but it he were to remain silent, after the statements of his No ble Friends, his silence might be construed to proceed from his inability to answer the charges had been made against him. His Noble Friends had adverted to the degradation of being. even called upon to de. fend themselves against a charge of fabricating eei. dente—but how humiliating must it be to him, to be called upon to defend himself against a charge of at tempting secretly and covertly to procure evidence against any person whatever ? Without making any improper disclosures, or introducing at./ inipreTee matter, he might be permitted to give an ow I.ne of the facts connected with the charge ag.tiwt him, so as to enable their Lordships to full. Av tiara, in the nb servatains he should feel it l.is t.a:y t make in his defence. First, then, he, never *As at the p..i.e v. here he was stated to haver been, tor the purpose of covertly collectiag es idonue, at any time shah% the proceedings ,on this sti':je‘t. He was neither there. tier in its vicinity, at any tint. , during the period us criest;oll. He not only said tsp. but, on the faith and honour of a Gentlsm.ui, he had never sponta neously sought for information on the subject; and be introduced.this, and desired it sight be wore virti• cttlarli attended 4), on account of the aae , zions with which Air intended to follow itip--stansety, that he not only never spontaneously sought for ii.iormation on the subject, bat that he had never been instigated to do so- 7 -(Hcar ' hear.) as a Councillor in a Certain'quarter, he considered himself as bound by his oath to enter into the examination of evidence of fered in matters of deep concern to the honour of the individual, and the imerests of the public. With re gard to the examination of a servant of a certain No- ble Lord, that had not proceeded from any spouts. nevus motion of his (Moira.) The Noble Lord in question bad solicited an audience, and had com municated most unpleasant, and unwelcome infor mation, that the subject was the talk of the whole vicinity. and that a clamour existed in regard w it—(Hear, hear.) kle ( Lord Moira) had, however, suggested, that there might by possibility be some misapprehension in the case, and that it might be proper, before any further proceeding took place, tLat the servant should be examined before him ; and w far was he from attempting to procure evidence by any improper means, that the report which he made was, that it did not appear to him to be necessary to take any further steps, and that it was not pi oved that the subject was the common talk of the vicinity, or that it had excited any clamour. He had never men tioned this affair to the CoMmissioners who were ah terwaids appointed ; and it had remained unnoticed until it unforturately came forth in the shape of a slanderous imputation against him, of having resorted to secret and improper practices in the examination of witnesses. It has been stated also, that' he had been guilty of tampering with witnesses, in the ins tance of two medical Men who had been called upon to give evidence. he recollected that an unwiL.ng witness, a certain servant (Fanny Lloyd)) had stated, that one tithe medical men in question had madean observation which called for attention. Considitii.g the nature' of that observation, the quarter from whence it cattle, and the unwitting :tanner in which 'the communication was made, it %omit.: have peen s:ngulari indeed, if seine *equity Lad not taker, pram in lizard to it. if he had erred as to the most r ipper mannet of eroceeding in that iLquity, he thus. sub mit to the consequences ; but he had suggested, that the most proper and delicate method wound be to send for these persons to meet the Magistrate (Mr. Conant) at his house, to have their examinations i. k it there, rather than to send Went to Mariborough-sueet to deliver their depositions in the usual manner.-- Doctor Mills was accordingly rent tor, but it was timnd that he was nor the person stated to have made the observation alluded to, and he was discussed and desired to send his partner. He believed he did make use of some such expressions as those mentioned by that partner ; but he could she* by Mr. Conant's testimony, if necessary, as well as by other means, that the expressions in question were not used in a conciliating tone, or in such a manner as to evince any with on his part to procure evidence in favour cif a particular side. So far were they from being used in such a way, as to render them liable to be under stood in that sense which the person in question was evidently desirous of attaching to them, that they wet, in reality intended to operant as a severe check upon him, on account of the pert manner in which he gaws_ his evidence. He (Lord Moira) then believed, and he still believed, that the man aid make use of the observation ascribed to him. He did not mean that this s:atement of his be;iet should operate as a charge against the individual who had been the subject of the observation ; but it was very possible that this rash and random observation might account for ad the strange stories that had been going about with respect to the circumstances to which it ref:Tred. It was o!vious that it would hive been very desirable for the person in question to get rid of the effect if an acknowledgment, that he had made, use of such an observation, on account of the essential injury, which, it the tact had been proved upon .him, he /mot in consequence have sustained in his profession. These were the only two points to which be would at pre- sent advert—irregularly, perhap;, but lie trusted that the observations which he had made would not be without their use ; for it was well that the public should have no partial understatuang of the state ments which had gone abroad. He was glad that lit had not been called up:in to leave the country, betels; this opportunity was afforded him of maki:ig the statement which he had now given to their Lercships The Noble Lord said, be wished also to notice, tilat it had been most falsely insinuated against him in print, that he had becn in the habit of sending ano nymous paragraphs to an evening papir, tot the put. pose of calumniating the character of a female of the highest rank. He spurned at the vile imputation, and could solemnly declare, that he never but once in his life sent an anonymous paragraph to a news paper, and that was on a political subject, at the re quest of another Gentleman. But as to any anony mous paragraph, calculated to hurt the character or the feelings of any individual, lie trusted their Lords ships would do him the justice tohekieve, that there