Star. — London, England, 1820-05-10 00:00:00

I! of the Criminal Laws as relates to Capital Punishment in cases . of Felony, and report from time to time thereon." - • . Mr. CANNING assured the Honourable and Learned Member, that no objection would be made, merely for the sake of objection, by - those on the other side_ of the House, to the proposed measure; and least of all were they inclined to express any dis sent in this early stage of the proceedings; nor would their arguments against it go farther, at any time, than when they saw just and solid grounds of oppo sition. Motion agreed to. Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH then moved for, and obtained leave to. bring in the following Bills: A Bill for Repealing so much of a Bill, passed in the 12th of Anne, as takes away the Benefit of Clergy in cases of Stealing in a Dwelling-house. A Bill to Repeal so much of the 10th and 11th of William the Third as takes away the Benefit of Clergy in cases where persons are convicted of burglariously entering a Dwelling-house and stealing to the value of Five Shillings. A Bill to Repeal so much of the 54th Geo. IL as makes it a Capital Felony to commit Thefts on Navigable Rivers. A Bill to Repeal certain Parts of Acts of Parliament, creat ing Capital Punishment for Crimes specified therein. Mr. BENNETT expressed a hope that his Learned Friend would persevere in the good work he had so well began. The late lamented Sir Samuel Romilly had set a noble example ; that truly excellent man had succeeded in taking away from the old law a great stigma, but a greater still remained —(Hear). There was a power left of quartering, beheading, and mutilating persons convicted of High Treason— (Hear, hear).—He therefore wished to know if his Hon. and Learned Friend intended to propose any measure tending to do away with this abhorrent practice? In thus expressing himself upon the sub ject, he did not wish to make any allusion to the recent occurrences, though they must have been forced upon his attention, as well as upon that of every Honourable Member present, by the facts with which they were connected. For himself, with regard to the present question, he had no political feeling but one, which lie entertained, as he hoped,' . in common with the House. He knew but too well, as did all those who witnessed them, whether from curiosity or any other motive, what effect the last' execution had produced on the minds of the assem bled multitude. It was one of horror and disgust. Never had there been so decided a manifestation of indignant feeling as upon that occasion. It appeared as it all present had instinctively felt that humanity was unnecessarily outraged—(Hear, hear).—His ob jection to this revolting practice was, that it had a l tendency to brutalize the feelings—to weaken the taste and moral sensibility of the people—(Hear, hear).—Sucll acuteness of feeling had never been witnessed at any execution as at that alluded to, because, in this improved state of society, the circum stances attending it were•too horrible for any feel ;cgs to endure. Indeed, the indignation was so marked, that the executioner who discharged the duty of cutting off the heads, found it necessary to wear a mask, au instance of which had not been known at any execution since the time of Charles the First. It was then obvious, that this practice could have no other effect than to inflict unnecessary pain on the family of the unfortunate culprit—(Hear). s'iould trouble the House no futther on the subject, but would content himself with again ex. pressing his hope, that his Honourable and Learned Friend would give the House an opportunity of vindicating itself and the country from the stigma which the continuance of such a practice must per petuate—(Hear, hear). • Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH said, that having been alluded to by his Honourable and Learned Friend, he felt it his duty to reply briefly to such of bis observations as referred to himself. He perfectly concurred with his Honourable Friend in his abhor rence of the practice in question ; and it was his in-' tention, at a futut e time, to introduce a measure for abolishing it, not only in High Treason, but in all other cases, as it tended to no other end than to chew the rancour of the survivor; and that the nisters of the law sought' to prolong the punishment of a convicted wretch, even beyond death. Yet while he was thus disposed to agree with his Honour able Friend as to the sua;ect itself, he did not, at the same time, think this particular juncture proper, for introducing any measure with regard to rt. He wished to propose it in such a manner as that it should have no allusion to temporary circumstances, nor excite any feelings connected with political dif ferences. Yet he must still acknowledge his grati tude to his Honourable Friend, for having brought the subject before the House, and no man was more disposed than himself fully to appreciate his un wearied benevolence—though, in this particular in stance, he must decline acting upon his suggestion at present, from the fear of exciting political feelings, where none ought to exist. The Hon. and Learned Member then withdrew his first motion, and moved for leave to bring in a Bill for consolidating all the Laws relating to forgery.--Agreed to, DUTY ON WOOL. Lord MILTON wished to know whether the Re ports on the subject of the Wool Tax, taken before the Boards of Trade and Treasury, were yet in a state to lay before the House? The t:H.I NCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was not prepared to say whether they had been yet revised. Mr. ROBINSON believed the Minutes taken be fore the Baird of Trade were ready if moved for. Lord MILTON than moved for the Minutes in question, and they were ordered accordingly. TRANSFER OF THE ELECTIVE FRANCHISE FROM THE BOROUGH OF GRANIPOHND. Lord JOIIN liii,SSELL rose, in pursuance of his motion, to call the attention of the llonse to the circumstances relating to the &rough of Grampound. In moving that this Borough should be distrar.chised, and that the elective rights should be conferred to some large and populous place, he held an opinion, . the justness of which had besfn admitted in the course of the last Session; as to whether Grampound might be found de serving, or not, of retaining its Corporate rights, was a question which would more properly be discussed at a future stage of the proceedings ; •at present, his object was to introduce a Bin, the provisions of which would enable such of the Freeholders as had rot hear convicted of bribery and corruption to vote as Free iv:l,fers of the *County of Cornwall; the franchise of the lie u, should be'•trarsferred to Leeds, which should remits two b:embers.toParliament, the qualification of the voters being £5 a year upon each house. This was the principal feature in tht Noble Lord's proposition, and he said that it was not the trans- ! fer of the irauchisf to any particular place which he had so much in view, as to establish the general principle. The Noble' Lard then moved for kV!. IA bdug in a Pill to disfranchise the Borough of Grampeund, and to transfer the franchise to Leeds. Mr. CANNING wished it distinctly to be understood, that t o prejudice the motion of the Noble Lord, in this stage of the proceedings, was not the desire of those who, like himself, agree in all the ultimate object. which it contamplatoc4 by far • as It was right to disfranchise a emelt/ad Borough, no objection' could he mile to the motion before the House ; but surely be , needed not appeal to the candour of the Noble Lord as to the modi in which the franchise thus taken awn Y was to be dis poidd of. Leeds had been suggested to the Noble Lord only by his own understandhiewithout any concurrence whatever en the part •of the Horde, at the time when the question was first-mooted. He was not now pledging himself to any opinion on the subject, beyond the first stage of the proceedings—or the disfranchisement of a specific Borough, and its transfer to a spe cific place. But to the general principle which the Noble Lord wished to establish, he could by no means assent. Lord ARCHIBALD HAMILTON thohght Grampound should bo.deprived of the right of election ; but he could not immediately agree that Leed9 should be the place to which that right should be transferred. In his opinion, he knew many places which had as great or a greater claim to it. He could mention one with which he was well acquainted in his own neighbourhood, Dumbarton, for instance—(A laugh)—there were , many places unrepresented as populous and of as much come quence in the country as Leeds. Mr. D. GILBERT said, without giving any decided opinion on the Noble Lord's Bill, he should certainly object, on the part of the Freeholders of Cornwall, to giving the Electors of Gram pound a right to vote for the County. He also thought the two Members, if taken from Grampound, should be given to the County in which the Borough was situated: • Lord M I LTON could not agree to that proposition.. If that plan were adopted, in a short time eight or ten Members might chance to be added to the number of the present County Mem bers for Cornwall !—(A laugh). Lord JOHN RUSSELL, in reply, assured the night Hon. Gentleman, he did not consider the admission he had made as binding him to anything beyond the bringing in the Bill. In the course of the last discussion on this subject, a Noble Lord, now ' absent, had admitted, a case might arise in which a Borough ' should be thrown into the Hundreds, and the trust of sending • Representatives should be transferred to some other place ; he asked for as further admission from'the Right lion. Gentleman. , Leave was then given to bring in the Bill, which was read a first, and ordered to be read a second time on Friday se'nnight. THE QUEEN. ...---- _ Lord A. HAMILTON wished to learn from the Right Ho nourable the ChanceUor of the Exchequer, if it was intended to make any specific provision for the Queen, and when ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, it cer tainty was intended to make a suitable provision for the Queen, as well as for the other Members of the Royal Family, not in cluded in the sum assigned to his Majesty. CATO-STREET CONSPIRACY. Mr. Alderman WOOD assured the House that he had no object in rising to address them, but to sub mit a motion' which required their interference. Pre vious to this, he had done all that he could to induce the Secretary of State to punish the individual whose conduct he now brought before them. He had laid before the Noble Lord the documents and evidence on the case, and had further stated much more to him which he had ascertained. For this purpose, he had looked over a number of depositions, and era mined not fewer than thirty persons. The whole oft these papers he would read, if his proposal for Secret Committee were not assented to—(Laughter). He had no desire to do so, if Ministers would.agreel to his motion : if they did not, he must read a great' many. lint first it would be necessary to say what his motion was. Its object was generally to ascertain Edwards's proceedings, and those of his associates, for the last two years, and particularly as connected with the late Cato-street Conspiracy. If he coul f ) shew that Edwards had been the sole instigator of the plot, That he had purchased the swords, tin cases, and made himself most of the implements of destruc tion, he thought it would be impossible for the HoOse to refuse the Committee; He could bring forward the evidence of persons who had received good cha racters from their employers, and who .stated that Edwards had done everything in his power to seduce them ; that he had taken them to various places to make purchases, and had even sent arms into their houses. He had traced the conduct of Edwards for the last five years. He was then living at Windsor, in the capacity of a modeller, sometimes in prospe rity, and at others • in great distress. • had been seen walking the streets without shoes and stockings, and selling bests, when, of a sudden he became rich, and accounted for it by saying that a German Count had left him money, and that Lord Castlereagh had assisted him in recovering it. He had since been convicted of being connected with a Police Officer, who assisted Castles during the war in inclacins French OffiCers to break their parole and effect their escape, in order to betray them and obtain the re ward offered for their apprehension. Upon all these points, be (Mr. Alderman Wood) had procured the fullest information, and sought out individuals, as in a former case, in which he had saved the lives of three men who stood in nearly the same situation, though with a different degree of criminality. He had ascertained that Edwards had invited the conspirators to Cato-street, and told them, if they were disturbed by the Military, to meet him at Lord Harrowby's. It was he who had placed Thistlewood at Harris's.— He had taken those lodgings himself; but how had he acted towards his victim ? He had not betrayed him immediately—No; his avarice had induced him to wait till the one thousand pounds reward liad been offered in the Gazette. After escaping from Cato street, the conspirators were going off together; it was he who withdrew Thistlewood from them, and, in order that he might lay his hand upon him when he thought proper, lodged him at Harris's—told !.im that he would call on his wife, and went the next morning to tell the people of the house to keep him till the evening, as he would take care that his friends should then assist in his escape. Previous to this, he had taken lodgings at Buckingham-gate, under the name of Ward, and had given a reference to the porter at Buckingham House. The worthy Alderman then read the opinion of the Lord Advo tate for Scotland against Spies, in a case where a base informer had been prosecuted even to death for the atrocity of his 'seductions. He (Mr. Alderman Wood) did not wish to push the matter against Ed wards so far; for he thought that murder alone should be punished with death. He should now pro.. seed to read the depositions of some of the witnesses which he intended to bring forward, in case his mo tion should be agreed to. Pickhard, a weaver, stated, that Edwards has made various propositions to him—had assured him that a number of persons, six being sufficient, would easily gain admission to the E gallery of the House of Commons, provided with 'machines of destruction, in the shape of books, con taining gun-barrels cut down, to be thrown and fired in the House at a time when the Members were en gaged in debate. 'But his efforts had been unavailing, and Pickhard had refused to listen to his propositions. Mr. GRENFELL thought it would be more satisfactory for the House if it were made acquainted with the authority an which this statement rested. BENNETT was surprised at stai r an interruption. Mr. WYNNE said, that nothing coed be read as a separate Paper in the House without its permission; though it might 'be done if it formed part of the speech of Sp Honourable Member. Mr. Alderman WOOD stated, that the paper Which' ie iota tits signed by She individnald imbo had .made the depositions, to which• they were ready to swear—(Neer, her). The rest were copiet of those depositions; some of which had been swore to, and to all of which the parties were ready to swear. William Tunbridge said, that he had been invited by Edwards to assist in the_murder of his Xaiesty's Mi nisters, when.the latter had used that horribre expres sion, « the bloody Irish butcher 'must be done away with." He had known Edwards for four or five years, and had met him in Holborn . previous to the last Smithfield Meeting. Edwards asked him to go there, saying, that there would be bloody woe k. He had refused, declaring that he felt no disposition for such work. He had met Edwards again after the Meeting, and had asked him what had been done there ? when Edwards replied, that they had all been disappointed as the matter had turned out.— Another man stated that Edwards was always coming to his house and proposing various plans, saying, that the best way for getting rid of his Ma jesty's Ministers was to employ combustibles, which were ready to carry into execution any measure re- Commended by'the Committee. On another indivi dual Edwards had, caHed at six o'clock in.the morn ing, telling him that Manchester was on fire, that the New Bailey had been forced, that Mr. Hunt had made his escape. and that the time had com for the Metropolis to act. But he had been too wise follow this advice. Another person stated, that Edwards was in the habit of calling at his shop, and asking whether .all the men were Reformers ? That having seen two swords hanging there, he said that they would suit their purpose, and had asked for them.-- That they had been given to him, and that in a few days he had called again, saying that he knew there were more, and that they were of very cheap work manship. The witness then acknowledged, that a bundle of twenty-four swords had been sent to his house, which he had put into the cellar, with the ex- ception of two, and Edwards carried off several of them under his coat. Edwards had sent to itim from Cato-street to come and see what he was doing. He had refused at first, but having afterwards given way to importunity, had gone, and found Edwards in a flannel jacket, manufacturing combustibles and grenades. Having been in the navy, he was alarmed at seeing so much powder near the fire, and was about to retire, when two Irishmen came in, but said they should stay there no longer, as there was a spy in company. He did not know to whom they meant to allude, but he retired as soon as they had gone away. An individual of the name of Chambers gave _similar evidence with respect to the !twolrishmen. lie (Mr. Alderman Wood) ought to inform the House, that he had not been desired by any of the indivi duals whose depositions he had received, to keep back their names, for they were all equally ready to come forward. Another man stated, that he knew both Edwards and his brother ; that on the 23d of Fe bruary, Edwards had draged him out of his how & and after locking him up f or some time, had taken him to Cato-street, but on seeing the stable, he ran away.. It was declared by another, that Edwards had absolutely stood with an immense stick at the door of the stable, and had sworn to knock him down if he attempted to escape. Others said they had heard him declare, that that was the time of all others when his Majesty's Ministers ought to be dis posed of, and that all was ready for that purpose.— According to another, Thistlewood and Edwards had called together on a Gentleman, to whose friend Thistlewood had sold an estate for £7,000. Edwards began to explain his plans, but they had met with no encouragement, 'and had therefore retired. There was also a very lung and interesting Paper, explain ing the whole of this man's infernal conduct, frwn the commencement till the Conspirators had been taken. One witness said, that Edwards had been patronized by Colonel Taylor, at Windsor. Another, who was in the waggon at the last Smithfield Meeting, stated that Fdwards had supplied him abundantly with gin, at the same time telling him, that he must not mince the matter, but must speak out in stich a manner as to be understood, as they were well prepared with fire-balls. He would not fatigue the House with further details, but it appeared to him, that such a traitor bad never existed in the country before. In the whole evidence which he had collected, it was an extraordinary fact, that there was not one single instance in which one person had seduced another. Edwards always appeared to have been he sole se ducer. He had asked the-witnesses if they had been addressed about the plot by any other person pre viously to their introduction to Edwards? and their answer had been uniformly that they had not. He would probably be told, that those persons had been guilty of misprision of treason. This might be the case. But, if they had not immediately communi cated the conspiracy revealed to them, did that les sen the guil: of Edwards? Certainly not. He could prove, from respectable authority, that money had passed through the hands of a Police-officer into those of Edwards, and the latter stood at a short distance from the house when Thistlewood was taken. He had taken lodgings 'under the name of Ward, but had afterwards admitted that his name was Ed wards, and that he had assumed the former in con sequence of being a spy of Government—(Hear, hear, hear, front the Ministerial side). He had re ceived this information from a highly creditable source ; for it came from the Gentleman who kept the School of St. George's, Hanover-square, and 'who had formerly been one of the first merchants of 'the town of Ipswich. It appeared, that Edwards had admitted that to be his name at his lodgings, in case Mr. Sheriff Parkins or any other person should have called upon him. The person in whose house Ire lived had then exclaimed, " Good GOD, have I 'had a spy in my house! I shall be ruined if it be known." To which Edwards had replied, that he was sorry he had taken him in. The worthy Alder man, after a few other observations, concluded by moving, "That a Secret Committee be appointed to examine the criminal conduct and proceedings of George Edwards and his associates, during the last two years, and especially his connexion with the par !ties forming the plot lately discovered in Cato-street! —(Hear, hear, hear). Sir ROBERT WILSON supported the motion, and hoped that his Majesty's Ministers would not object to the principle of the Committee, as it would serve to vindicate their conduct from the reports which had lately been in iirCulation. He was in Prance when the Cato-street Conspiracy had been discovered, but at his return had neger heard any 9 intro *peaking about tire Lite trial without ltmenting that Edwards should not have been put into the wit nesses' box. This was the more extraordinary, as one of the Sheriffs of London had called upon the' Secretary of State some time since to etplain certain circumstances respecting Edwards, and to impress on his Lordship the necessity of examining him on the late trial. lie did not mean to say that spies might not occasionally be employed, but he was satisfied that an organised system of spies would be a great national evil. When he admitted that spits . ce mi r lh ai t n be re s oc tri c c a ti s o io n n s. ally ca e re m stead of observers they should not become agents p sh lo o y u ed ll b h e e terln a , nt th u a z t i l er n- - and leaders—( Hear, hear).—No money should be entrusted to their hands; to enable them to seduce to arm, and to contrive plots, which otherwise would have had no existence—( Hear, hear). —ln times like the present, if men like Castles, Oliver, and Ed- wards, were supplied with money, and allowed to see- Up their Manufactures in the vicinity of our mane-: facturing towns, they might not only seduce indivl.; duals, but bring whole families to the scaffold (Hear, hear). —Ile did trot pretend to assert that Edwards was altogether the planner of the whole eeterprise, for there was Thistlewood's own evidence, that be had determined to sacrifice his Majesty's Ministers, as a requiem to the men who had perished at Mar chester. But Edwards had seduced many ethers, who would not have otherwise joined in the corepi racy—(Hear, hear).—He then alluded to the cruel execution which had taken place in France three years ago, of several individuals who were thought to have fallen victims to the instigations of the police, and the barbai icy . of whose deaths had produced a less impression of the want of justice of the Govern ment, than the refusal of the latter to allow the police seducers to be examined and punished. It row remained for Ministers to shew what connection they had had with Ede ards, and to explain why and wherefore they had not placed him in the witnesses' box—(Hear, hear). Mr. BANKES admitted that there had been cases which might induce the House to undertake inquiries tin justihed by any precedents whatever. But on the present occasion, the two Honourable Members who had opened the question had completely mistaken the nature of the constitutional poweis and privileges of the House. Had it ever been heard that that As sembly had been called upon to institute an inquiry into the criminal conduct of a private individuai?— Was there anything More unsatisfactory than the evidence taken at the Bar of the House, or by its Committees? Other Courts had the power of im posing the most solemn obligation, of compelling witnesses to answer before the ALMIGHTY, under the sanction of an oath. But to the House the Constitu tion hid wisely refused this power, thereby sheaving that it ought not to meddle with those things which ought only to be tried trader the obligation of an oath. The worthy Alderman conceived it astonishing that all the depositions should agree in representing Ed wards as the sole seducer, and that net one word was said about anybody else. Now the Hon. Alder man had filled a high office, and it was surprising that his acumen should not have suggested the idea of a conspiracy among the deponents !—(Hear, hear). The more so as all the men were perfectly known to have been deeply implicated in the plot, though not perhaps to a degree which would have justified their being brought to trial—(Hear, hear).—Was this a case of such urgency, that, if inquiry was denied, instant ruin must ensue ? As though the chambers below were filled with., gunpowder, and the House should run the risk of being suddenly blown up if it did not proceed to an immediate examination ? Did the worthy Alderman really believe that the House was exposed to any danger from the plot said to have been suggested by Edwards for the destruction of its Members ?—(Hear).—He did not mean to say that Edwards was an innocent man, but he thought that equal danger might arise from others, as well as from him—(Hear, hear).—But the conspiracy was shaken to its foundation, and little of peril remained. It had been first considered that the object of the wor thy Alderman was to bring Edwards to justice; but this he had since disclaimed, and had said that he would not wish even this miscreant to be put to -death, as he thought that capital punishment ought only to be inflicted in cases of murder. What, there fore did he now want? He wished Edwards to be sent out of the country, which was the very object which at first he seemed desirous of preventing. The gallant General who had seconded the motion had also taken an extraordinary view of the subject. On landing from another country, with the opinions ex cited by some barbarous execution which had-taten place there some years before, he stated that he had found similar sentiments entertained here, and that all were shocked at Edwards not having been exa mined on the late trial. Did he then intend to move an instruction to the Secret Committee to inquire why Edwards had not been put into the witnesses' box ? ( Yes, frone Sir Robert Wilton).—He was glad to hear it was his intention; bat he would observe, that such an inquiry would be quite contrary to what Wig been ever done in Parliament—to institute an inquiry whether the Law Officers had acted right or wrong in the performance of their duty. It was impossible that the House would lose its precious time in attend ing to a motion so grounded and so seconded.— The gallant General reprobated what he called the spy system. For his part, he was decided in the opinion, that no Government could maintain itself without the use of spies—(Hear, hear!) — In expressing such an opinion, he was a*are that he might expose himself to obloquy ; but he must bear it. The use of spies was practised in every time. If a gang of robbers were coming to attack the worthy Alderman's house, and if one of the gang went to him previously, and informed him of their intention, would he stupidly turn away and take no notice of the communication ?—(Hear, hear). Would it then be contended that less care ought to be taken cf the public safety ? Whatever other opinions might be entertained of that great man Cicero, there would be, he believed, but one on his conduct on this occa• sion. He• had not hesitated to seek and receive information, from the courtezan Fulvia, of-Cataline* designs ; and the Ambassidors of the Aflobroges he encouraged to continue to attend the meetings of the conspirators, in order that their designs might be more fully discovered " Leptis prwcipit, ut studium conjurationis schen:enter si mdent ; cater os ideant : bene pulliceantur, dentquc operana, eos gum maximc manifestos habeant !"—(Hear, hear). • ....Such was the conduct of that great Mali and e*. I ,~.