Star. — London, England, 1812-02-25 00:00:00

PARLI/IMENTefRr PROCEEDINGS. meet was originally entirely composed of Foreigners, although it had now become a British Regiment.— With respect to the Foreign General who command. ed a district, he was at a loss to conceive who the Noble Lord alluded to. Lord FOLKSTONE said, General Linsingen. Lord PALMERSTON replied, that the Officer mentioned by the Noble Lord had only the command of a military depot, but had no authority to interfere in any respect with the details of the district. Lord FOLKSTONE stated, that lithe Noble Se cretary would take the trouble of reading the Act of Parliament to which he alluded, he would find no authority whatever for recruiting our army as had been done, contrary to the spirit of the Act of Settle. meat and Constitution of the Country. Mr. LAMBE observed, that, as the subject had frequently been canvassed at popular meetings, he could not help giving an opinion upon it. Many ima gined that the introduction of foreign troops was un necessary and unconstitutional. If he thought so he should be the first to vote against their being conti nued ; but when he looked to the present situation of the world, and the extraordinary means by which our enemy recruited his armies, he thought it our duty to avail ourselves of every means that would keep us in a condition to meet him. Mr. CURWEN was surprised at the speech o f the Hon. Gentleman. His opinion was, that the laws made inthe best of times ought to be strictly adhered to, and not suffered to become a dead letter. It was' a disregard of salutary laws which brought the coun try to the cri:ical state in which it is, and it was a strict adherence to the laws and spirit of the Consti tution, that could alone extricate us. He wished no encouragement to be given to prisoners of war enter ing our service, nor did he think it became Govern- merit to do so, when he considered orir treatment of our own soldiers anti sailors who had entered the French service. • Mr. MATTHEW MONTAGUE defended the employment of Foreigners, who, from their number, never couldgive the least cause of alarm to the friends of the Constittition. Mr. FREEMANTLE said, that oar regular army had been increased only 1,900 men last year, wide the additional expense, on their account, would amount to nearly £600,000. Lord PALMERSTON said, that. there was an increase of 10,361 men in our land forces last year, which, with certain charges which had been trans ) ferred from the Adjutant-General to the Qu irter. HOUSE OF COMMONS. I Master-General's Office, but which were not increased • This being the last day for the hot reading. of private Bills, a charges, amounted to I.lle sum alluded to by the considerable number were brought in and read. Right Hon. Gentleman. A message from the Lords informed the House, that their Several Resolutions were then read, and when the Lordships hatl agree[} Cu the Exche q uer Bills me. '1 otriN presuate4 an account or the Expetices of the Trans- Chairman put that for the Payment of Widows' port weer, for the peals laoB, 1811,30 d Isis. Pensions, The Committee uu the LW/ Population Bill was postponed to Mr. BANKES rose, and desired the Clerk to read Thursday mgt, the Report made by the. Committee of Finance in Mr. itIiSEERT moved, That there be laid before the House en Account of the Quani.ty of Sug.tr i:nportt.t Arno the United 1783, and that of the Committee of Military Inquiry Nin g durn in the }eats tor tr 11, soda 12, distitigui,hi:q atom: m icle in 180 S, respecting the oflice of Paymaster of f orted titan .Lir.tih Colonies from those imbriesl tibia other Widmt s' Pew,icais, in cider, ht said, that posterity paces. ' knowt he - might rca.,ons which induced the House to Also, an Account of the Quantity of Sugar exported from Great Britiiin (luring the taloa prrio.!, dist!uLntollit% that scut to the d-Aerinination to which it should that !light ogle. Irclauti from that stilt to other places. The resoletions having been accenditNly le ,d, the Atli Accoani of the Plumber of Keci nits taisA for the regular H:nl. Gen tleman s a id, be could sc.a.;:e.l see rea- Army last ) .ar veal prebitt,il to the tieuse, and orsla,d tO lieou son for his adding ene word to the eni;,ll.: tic Resolu. the table. eke tiaras just read against th e continuance of the sine- Ward of the Committee on the Nottingham Watch aud Ward Bill was o rdarei to be take n into eor.sl ler a di es (0-1110 flow. cure appointment of Paymaster.. The very ex'st pir. MAK I IZil wok that opportunity of obaersing, that some ence of the Resolutions tVa s a sitilic;ent ground to of the. public ptinta luta r 5 oriented Lint to have, _in lAA place, • • the justify House es calling on that Minister who had aptachatt bh,tate the M2glatratas of CoULty o f NOttini ham define the late &Liao- bance, here. He now agnivd at; dared to disregard them, to account for his conduct, any messain, done so, add appealed to eta House for the accuracy in filling a situation so strongly recommended to be 91 acs present 44*e-inept. abolished.—(llear, hear!) --It was a stretch of office llpe Jou.' otot4oraei th en postponed Ida motion , L.r a. Bid to f.r which thi acuteness and ingenuity of the Right manta the otßeas itti,:stazr os ch a r Court tit Abliultiaty,f.ona Hon. Gentleman could scarcely furnish any palliation. this day to Friday neat. ARMY A Sir NAVt ESTIMATES. • ; Having stated the steps taken by the Committee Oa the motion beieg made for receiving the Re. %%Lich had drawn up the Resclutions„ and their appro rt of the Committee of Supply, , bation by the House, and that it had been determined Lord FOLKSTONE, -observing a Noble Lord in to pass a Bill grounded on those Resolutions, he endea liis place, begged to call the attention of the House voured to obviate an argument used on the opposite to the very Lege Lem wh ch was this year charged side, namely, that as this sinecure was embodied in the Report with othirs, and was intended to be included for the nulititenance of fizeign tutors. This descip ia the 'same Bill with them, that it would be irregular titan of force in our service amounted to 50,000 men, to attack one solitary case before Parliament came having been increased 5000 last year, and Ministers to a determinate resolution on the whole ; but this stance, until they piese had nut thouilit proper even to mention the circum- be argued was already given, and as to nted the estimates. The only Acts of Parliament which authorised the introduction what had been said of abandoning the decision of Parliament, and that no blame was to attach when of such troops. were mere Acts el indemnity, passed such delicacy had been observed, the same answer for the protection of the Ministers who were then em- such applied, as that decision had been sufficiently ployed introducing them, but never were intended manifested by :he Revolutions ; the second and third to attend to other M inisters who might thereafter Resolutions he thought strictly applicable, and that think proper to employ foreigners. The nuenbce:, which he state,' were very considerable,ind required nothing further was wanting. The Minister had ad the attentive .consideration of the House ; but they .milted his responsibility, i n such a ca s e h e ne c e ss arily must ; but is that sufficiedt, had he taken the respon were by no means the whole amount of the foreigners ability ? but had he taken that responsibility on him emplOyeJ in our military service.. They wire the self in such a manner as to shield his Royal Highness nctual. number serving foreign corps, but many more foreigners were to be found in the ranks of many from all imputation ?he thought he had not; and that io the manner ill which it had been done, he must other reg.menis not foreign. He had been informed, that OUrcers who were employed in raising and re. , necessarily be- implicated : considering the relation in which the parties stood, the length of service, the cruiting'geglish regiments had enlisted foreigners, Th . loth known and well.merited attachment, how could it be ,who were: now serving in their corps. thought that the Royal Master of such a servant re giment Of HUSiall lie undetstood at present to have would not be implicated ? The motives which directed no less than 118 foreigners, who were taken in'arms the conduct of the Minister upon that occasion, he in the French service against this country, but after- to have a greater regard to self-interest than wards liberated from D..rtmoor prison on condition for . of entering the British set vice. Surely - no Act of Par. the public good. Was lie not tryi ng t h e f ee li ngs Bement existed to audio: .ze the entittnitnt of • of Parliament . and the public opinion by an ac t i on , when he musk know that th e bl ame was not to fall reigneis who had been fighting against us. (H ea r, tor.) If no such taw existed, he. wished to be upon himself alone ? Was he n o t t ryi ng t h at i f any i obloquy might ari s e, his R o y a l High ness m i g h t f u ll y Informed wko it was that advised their culler/kilt. -particip a t e ? By the situation i n w hi c h t h e H ouse :.—lndcpende.•:, however, of tlie foreign officer.; ;LA . was placed, he felt great difficulty with respect to the ilea in foreign corps, molly foreign Liccrs were part he was to act. Did the Right Hon. Gender:ern employed in native corps ; e we • had- t only many thinleehere was no difficulty ? Was it not k most subaltern otlicers in Englis' corp,, avid foreign Colo !. unpleasant task to pass a vote which would imply a pels command:rig regiments, but we had a foreign degree of censure where none should fall from the General commancliog a district, cnntrary to an ea press Act of Parliameet. He , concluded by askingexalted ruck and many p r i nce ly vi r tu es o f his R o y a l pho they were' who advised tru t h appieuttneete 'an Highness, from his high sense of the great merits bf the gallant Off i c er , f rom persona l respect , he illetha the 101 Hussars were formed as he stated ? found great dithculty in stirring the question. What • a. eats.MEk6TUN said, that Government ! impelled him to move in it ? but a strong bait not ‘ttraiiily permitted any Natives of France tol enter the British service, but that they had permitted feeling Of Parliamen t a r y d ut y. if not o b tru d e d on .They all • him idehe manner. was ;if it di,: not come forward a certain proportion of Germans to enlist. i were taken with their own free will and consent ; n this Parliamentary shape ; if it did not ma k e a part of Estimates, which they were bound to es but he did not believe that any of aerie w e re i n the amine, he himself would have forborne inquiry 10th Dragoone. Instead, however, of their being ' as it was thus before the House, they must deal with enlisted contrary to law, an express Act of Path:t it accordingly. One thing deserved the consideration iodic authorised his Majesty to avail himself of tie of the Huuse; that the vote upon the present questiim services of Foreign Officers and soldiers, and under veniment 11:‘,1 acted. The would shew their sense of the Resolutions: The the sanction of that Act tso' effects of the vot e c o u ld not b e con fi ne d to t h e s i ngle introduction of Foreign troops was by no means a place which was the object of discussion, but must Jsew measure, as WAS I.val known ; the 97th Regi shew their opinion on the whole Report, for as the HOUSE OF LORDS, FEBRUARY 24. In the Scots Appeal, Ranken v. Campb e ll, Sir SAIIWEE Re. *smut' and Mr. HORNER were heard for the Appellant in this case, Mewrs. ADAM and RePConoente for the Respondent, and Sir S. ROMULT for the Appellant in reply. 'The LORD CHANCELLOR immediately proposed the affir mation of the judgment of the Scots Court, which was ordered accordingly. The East India Loan, and the Coal Duties Regulation Bills, were reid a third time and passed. The Insolve: t DebtOrs' Amendment, and the House of Com mons Officers' Bill, passed through Committees.of the whole house, and were subsequently reported. Lord HOLI AND presented a Petition from the Debtors con -Bned in Castle Rushiu, in the Isle of Man, which, he observed, ;resented such cases of grievance and di-tress as must forcibly appeal to the attention of the House. He therefore proposed that the documents should be read by the Clerk. The Petition was accordingly read at the Table, anti referred to various grievances and privations which the said prisoners elescribe4 themselves as suffering from the corresponding severity and hardslup of the operation of the Mani Laws, and ft out cir cumstances peculiy to Debtors in that part of the Empire; and praying ouch relief as their Lordshies should think meet. The Petition was ordered to Ise on the Table, as was also ano ther Petitiwi presented i'y his Lordship from Debtors confiasd in the county Jail of Carlisle. The Earl ut LIVERPOOL gave notice of his intention to propose the second reading of the 'Nottingham Frame-breaking Prevention hill to-morrow, and movel that the Lords be sum moned. Lord HOLLAND expressed his disapprobation of the intend ed proceeding; the notice was by far too short; the subject to vrhith the lied referred should undergs same previous investiga tion, wcr,t it only to asc,rtain the rffcct of the proceedings al ready adopted wi:h respect to the d:sturbances ; b.:sides, the principle of the measure now prdiposed, was one he could net, conflate:l'oy with his duty to the country, support. Mr. Jou tisote, from the Irish Secretary of State's Offer, a Jui.i.tr Clerk of the Privy Council, and a Mr. lonusom, trom the London Duck Cor.ti•::ny, presented sundry documents from their respective del.tuttnent•, puisuant to fomur orders of their Lordships, pariiculaslit w.ta reference to certain Urders iA '1 he Earl of LIVERPOOL again addressed the Home on the stihject of the Nott.niham Frame Bill. liatlerianding, he mid, it wculd be a mater of convenience to several Noble Lords, were th'e discussion of that 'measure pesiponed from to morrow to a future day, he therefore would propose that the debate should take place on a subsequent btase of the Bill, and on nursday, instead of to.rnorrow. In that view he moved to dr:charge the order for summoning their Lordships to-mor row, arid to renew it for Thursday, wLich proceeding accord ingly tot Jr piece. Ott u.r: motion of the Marquis of LANSDOWNE, a variety of deem: . euts !pitching the state of the Imports and Exports to the year. 1805, 6 ? 7 ? 8, and 9, were crlered to be laid before the House.—Adjourced. thinßeeusoestiuitiono,na and Il i g rgn a au t na i o gn n ee . r 00 f l f 'thhee granting,oTf fic e n and manta -- give the same authority to a Committee' as to Ik e 1 entire Legislature. Their Reports were not th e ma , jest tHhaet j o uw f sat a is n ateh i d n e v t e i li s e. t 3 a fair subject for regulation, not for abolition N a W .that the prerogative was as roue an 'led object of P air . liamentary solicitude, as economy. If cl• amour he i d founded, it was no: to be attended to. He voted not from party m. , ;',ves ; it was w e ll known that in great questions he voted against the Minister. Tj a question he thought by no means of a serious nature. Too much of the time of the Hou s e h a d been already taken up with it ; it was a matter for regulation, nee for abolition. Mr. HOLMES SUMNER contended, tha t g m . i gulated, the s nary should be ab out te4oo per e a . alum, in the place of what it is at p resent . He wcj , I rather advise the abolition of those sinecure s , Re g that Parliament should be trusted with • makin g a sub usquent pi ovisior ! Mr. M' DONALD spoke with warmth in suppor t of the Amendment. They were not sent there, he said, to abet the obsequiousness of an accommod a hie Minister, but as the successors of men b c , . . w h . enticed every tiring to the good of their country., The charactcr of Parliament should never be tares. der eel, but particularly in times like these. Were the accumul ition of taur, the decay of trade, a n d the other colarnitics of the times to bb grounds u 2 i as winch their duty to their constitueles we re to b e abandoned ! If not, it was the duty of this House to :cad a lesson to the advisers of Princes, not mo re useful to the people than to the Princes themsslies. The high set vices of him who was the object of this motion ; he admitted as fully as anyman, but thought other means should be resorted to, and the establish. meat of the Prince must have afforded ample mean. • There were other circumstances which c a ll e d for ths ' attention of the House, connected with th e grant is i much as the grant itself, namely, the time a whit it was made—during the prorogation of Parliament: why not wait for the meeting of Parliament: The Chancellor of the Exchequer, at that time, might be considered as a Minister on trial ; it was in defian ce of the Resolutions of the House, but it is said that it was not done in opposition to an Act of Paths. : meat; but the Resolutions of the House he conside. red of equal force in this case. Such was the weight of those objections, that he thought the 'Minim would have precluded the necessity of a vote by cas t ceiling the appointment; he had not doneto, but he had not done his duty, that was no reason that* House should forget theirs. Mr. FITZGERALD said, that the Homers* Gentleman who had just sat down seemed to ferry in the course of his speech against sinecures, that he himself held one ; there was, however, a se:= difference between it and that which was co on Colonel M'Nfahon ; the latter wet the revrepd 4 long and faithful services, the former was remelt when the Honourable Member was a mere school. boy. He willingly joined in the deference wliichtbe House entertained ot the motives of the Right H. Gen leman who brought forward this Motifin, bathe thought it would have been only fair in him to hew done justice to the motives of his Right Honourable Friend. The Right Honourable Gentleman, viol he used the language of confidence and Ineschlup, should not hive intermingled therewith the impute / tion of courtly obsequiousness ; when he descate4 tat the subject of debate in expressior.s cf this name, he should have omitted those compliments to purity of his Right Honourable Friend's inteetical, ' which, when p l'o. in such a manner, he (Mr. }imp I told) could nut deem s.ncere. He was sure that WI I gr- at perversity existed in the treattnetit of this tab; . ject, for, at ter the declaration of his Right Hornet. j able Friend the other night, he was accused tof Java% I, determined to give away every sinecure office, al 1 spite of the recommendations of the Commissions , of 1752—(4ear, hear.) if the statements which Wen I made could apply to men in office as ilia* sot es pattkular as this, the terrors which seemed to betel tertained on•this subject might be warratited, but he was convinced that his Right Hononrable Frialle would be the very last to ezpoue himself to the liabi lity of incurring the imputations which bad hem thrown upon him. It was argued, that this propaso 1 'ion was an insult to Parliament and the People, and that it was dragging the Prince Regent through the dirt ; he asked, Did the way in nhich the office was given occasion that assertion ? Was it an insalt 0 the Prince to advise him to reward a man who, has ing access to his Reyal Highness for years, susuenr known to abuse the cards of Iris place? So tartrate being an insult, it was anticipating the wishes of . his Royal Highness in an honourable manner. Them* question to be considered was, whether the sum el to be refused, for the purpose of tort' ering there object cf economy ? The case should not beet judged by the Holl3C ; it could not be conWldeg that the emolumenti of the office were to be WTI from the objects of the Royal bounty; nor c004."1 *. on fair grounds, be urged that the object of the , tion was to add this £2.700 a year to the WW 1 !: Pensions, at the expellee ot marking the first OW his Royal Highness's reign with censure. hat dB Mr. M'DONALD, in explanation, stated t . sinecure which he held was one of the least 4011 10001 o able nature; its emoluments did not arise oil! fl . ie public purse, but from individuals who aMfn risk offices. Whenever an example was:4. giving up sinecures of every kind, he would . follow it, trio he would never suffer the an . 4 sions of a Lord of the Treasury to alter eith er ' , opinions or Ins conduct. ill ' the: Mr. FITZGERALD said, in explanation. .. ild not refer to the Hon. Gentleman's h . sinecure place eitlyr in a political or moral Mr. WILDE RiIORCE observed, that the Gentleman (Mr. Fitzgerald) seemed to think all who held sinecure places were peeellsOd giving their opinions in Parliament --be however, that few would agree with him in dolt nion. It was of far more consequence to mm principle of his Honourable Friend's obje!tiasW vote, than the circumstances of the part mokr. . Much had been said of the recommit:Adak*" Commissioners of the year l 782; be recap the Commission was composed of men who sass! Members of Parliament, in order dam %tar exercise more independence of just the offices which should or abseiling' be. limb firmed, they cdaimaisil lb* the pails; well kw", iiillibli • .._, • present was a rank and simple instance of those Sine. cures described by thnt Report, as there was none less capable of defence, he saw no reason why the Mini ster should confine himself any longer frost conferring places of a similar description, not more pointedly condemned than the present. It never entered into the contemplation of the Committee which drew up the Resolutions, to maintalt‘that it was necessary to retain Sinecure Offices of a nature such as this. Fits case was made out, and it was a strong one. It never had been admitted by the Committee, that offi ces to which large salaries and no services were an nexed, should be retained, with the exception in the Royil Household, and about his Majesty's person.— This office was different. The objection to the grant was stronger from the possibilityof reward, in a man ner perfectly unobjectionable. Entering upon a new reign, the Soveteign would have it in his power, from the increased splendour of his establishment, to reward the services of the gallant in an ample and. dignified manner. He disclaimed any share of pri vate feeling operating on his (Mr. limikes) conduct, as if he acted from attachment to Resolutions in which be had so great a share ; he felt not the least hurt on that account; but if, contrary to his expectations, the House should vote against the Amendment which he was about to propose, nothing could pi event its be ing followed by this interim. Cation, narnelv, that the House had abandoned all the measures taken to en force economy, and that all the discussions es to our revenue were at an end, and that full liberty given for every sort of irregularity and profusion.— He concluded with moving an Amendment to the Resolution, the effect of which was, to leave cut the amount of the salary of the Paymaster to the Fund for the Support of Officers' Widows. Mr. CHARLES ADAMS thought the Honig , not at liberty, in this m inner, to depart from their Resolutions; the Resolutions were the recorded opinion of the House, and had been acted upon: that to pick and select some to be observed; and others to be violated, would be unwarrantable; it would be better to reject them altogether. Mr. MATTHEW MONTAGUE, allowing every degree of credit to the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Bankes) and admitting the purity of his motives, still he was of opinion that others who thought quite differently withirim on the subj.ict before the House were equally entitled to cre,in tor the purity of their motives.— From the extrem: anxiay with which that Honour able Gentleman examined fiteancial subjects, and from his strong and laudable desire to promote economy, he thought his mind had received a bias which made him examine the present subject 'with too much jeal• usy. He would not be understP%l as speaking against economy ; he knew its imratance ; but there were lines of demarcation to be drawn.— The g ,od of the country equally required, that the Prince should be in possession of his just prerogatives as the People of their rights, and one of these, and of !thehighest consequence, was, thattheability of reward ing public services should remain with the Crown.— : The Resoluvons confined the sphere of reward too much ; and the species of merit was too much confi ned. Parsimony is not economy, properly under ! stood ; and no money so badly-employed, as that hich is prevented from being employed beneficially. (41 laugh.) He thought the Hon. Gentleman deser ving credit for his schemes of economy, but thought, on general principles, that the present grant was per lectly regular. The reward was well earned, and the object fair and legitimate, such as was proper t 3 reward such a servant. He admitted that it was a sinecure, since we were talking of sinecures, but it was the plain meaning of the Resolutions, that the sinecuses were not to he given up till some other me thod of rewarding merit was provided. For suit language as he was now holding men were s.anctimes abused, but he despisedpopular clamtsut, andtle,ught himself as true a patriot as those who make the lou dest professions of it in popular meetings ; it was not unusual to /lave recourse to such abuse, but he de , spiced it. It was right that men who. wasted their spirits in the service of their country should obtain their reward—(4 kagia.) He considered the subject a grave one, and wished it to be treated seriously.— Maay kinds of service besides military were deserv ing of reward ; should such services go unrewarded ? But it is said there are pensions, but when that fund was exhausted, it was not our duty to withhold re wards.of another nature. The argument of the Ho. nourable Gentleman Was in opposition to the pur view of iris own Resolutions ; for those Resolutions implied other means to be provided. Until such were provided, it was evidently right that those sine cures should remain. That Resolution, even if taken in the sense which some would give to it, was not a law, and a Minister was nut to look upon it in that light. The Resolutions have not even gone through the necessary steps before the House, and were nor, therefore, to be insisted on. Mr. LOCKHART, agreeing with the last speaker in the general line of his arguments, maintained that ' the prerogatives of the Crown were to be supported -as carefully as the rights of the people. Hu defend ed the conduct of the Minister in granting the place tinder a condition ; it he !lila done otherwise, he would I have gone contrary to the sense of Parliament ; but if he had not advised the filling it up, subject to that conditioo, he would have opposed the influence of the Crown, where nothing AnAl had been settled; he had observed the true medium, and was free from blame on every side. He thought there was some. thing of party entering into this question, but his vote should be free from any party feeling, and given only from a sense of duty. Mr. HERBERT, (of Kerry,) spoke on the same side. Mr. BATHURST thought it was taking a oar row view of the subject to confine it to the v,.c c 7 pon the present question. The question before the 1-1 .use w.,s, Whether or not the sum contained in the Re solution was to be voted ? not whether the place was to be abolished ; and in giving his vote for the ques tion before the House, and in voting for the affirma tive, he did not consider himself as precluded from considering the prophecy at another time of retain ing this office. That was a distinct subject ; but he thought the attention of Parliament had been too much drawn to this, a subject, speaking compara tively, of little or no importance. Mr. MORRICE argued, that as there was no Resolution passed. for the unqualified' abolition of Sinecures, that their establishment must continue till some other mode of `rewarding merit is dad.— The House was called upon by the to - } - I 'do 16, e. tall ei Ft rite