Star. — London, England, 1820-10-04 00:00:00

',~~ ; of b. its Ntr , I +r.:; 10.487. TRIAL OF THE QUEEN, 24 a' A: mit k les e- . sd a d- HOUSE OF LORDS, OCTOBER 3. DEFENCE-FIRST DAY IN CONTINUATION. Do- The following is a more detailed Report of the latter part 'or Mr. BaouctrAm's Speech, than our limits, and want of time, permitted yesterday evening ] My Lords, it is now my duty to state to your - Lordships the nature of the evidence which has been adduced in favour of the Bill, and I shall begin with the evidence of Majocchi, one who has acquired a celebrity which will not be lost as long as those words (which I shall net now use) which he has so often used in the practice of his art shall be remem bered—words which will ris-J to the imagination at the mention of his name. He is a witness of great importance—a person accompanying her Majesty in all her journies—a person whose testimony extends over the whole period of the charge—a person who was only dismissed from the Queen's servive about the time when the charges are nearly concluded and a person who was refused to be taken hack into' her service about the same time. He and De Most stand apart from the rest, and they differ from the other wituessrs in this—they are, in fact, the witness‘ for the Bill, %% bile the others, who are only confirma-, tery witnesses, are yet as willing witnesses, and as, anxious and jealous for the interest of their employees., I have often heard it remarked, that the memory of men differs, and I admit that it does, as well as the honesty of men, but I think there is a sort of memory which is inconsistent with honesty. I could figure ' to myself such a memory, but why should I fancy,' when I recollect the evidence of Majocchi'? I defy the wit of man to furnish stronger instances of false swearing, when he used words which I now shall not mention. I shall not detain your Lordships by re ',eating those expressions ; neither will I put cases destructive of his testimony, nor cases which would tend to the utter demolition of it. I will not put such cases to your Lordships, becau e I have them before me in the testimony of Majocchi. If I were lecturing upon that subject, I should endeavour to sbew that there were such things as innocent forget fulness and guilty forgetfulness, and my arguments for guilty forgetfulness would be all founded upon the testimony of Majocchi. I shall, from his own testimony, give proof positive of this man's perjury. I come at once to the way in which he swore to the position of the bed-room of Bergami with respect to that of her Majesty ; and I must now remark, that' the great object of the Attorney-General, as was the previous concoction of the plan, was to prove that* the situation of the rooms was favourable to the com mission of adultery, and that the rooms of the rest of her Majesty's suite were distant. The second part of the prixeeding was - as necessary as the first, 'and accordingly the first witness is better prepared than any ten of the others ; he has acquired more accuracy in swearing for his employers ; he has acquired an utter forgetfulness of all which did not make in fa vour of his employers, and an utter forgetfulness of all <which could not afford him protection against the sifting of a cross-examination. When he was asked, where did the Queen and Bergami sleep?— Were they apart or were they near ? He was always sure to remember that the room of the Princess was near to that of'Bergami. and sometimes that they communicated by a door. When he was asked where were the rest of the suite ?- He replied, apart ! Were they distant or near at Naples? They .were apart ! Apart is the translation of the words which he has used He then swears distinctly as to the positions of the seams of Bewail and her Maje ty, and swears distinctly and positively to the communi cations between their rooms on all occasions ; but, notwithstanding his wonderful accuracy in this re spect, he knows nothing more of the situation of the other rooms, than that they were apart ! He knows nothing more of the way in which the rest of her Majesty's suite were lodged, than that they were apart 1 There is an end of innocent for gettulness. If I ask him how they were situated, he does not recollect, because he must know, when he said these two rooms were near and the others were apart. In telling your Lordships that these two rooms were near and the others were apart, he must recollect the proximity of the two and the remoteness of the others ; he has either sworn truly on the first day, or falsely on being examined a second time ; I care not which he has done, but he has done either. If I had asked him: whether he had seen a person on the second day whom he had sworn he had ' seen on the first day, and that he answered he had never seen that person, he would not by such an answer have been guilty of more direct contra diction or grosser perjury. Where his recollection will not operate against the Bill, or where it will not interfere with his own testimony, he does not assume forgetfulness. If your Lordships look through his evidence, you will come to this conclusion—that he forgets all which might in the remotest degree sub ject him to the sifting of a cross-examination, and that he recollects everything, however minute,. which could make in favour of the Bill. I will give your Lordships one instance .of his recollection in Matters unconnected with his previous testimony. . The LORD CH ANCELLOR—" In what page of the Minutes, Mr. Brougham ?". Mr. BriOUGHAM—" Page 47, my Lord." " Were you ever at the Villa d'Este since you left ler Majesty's service? Yes. Were the positions of the rooms the same as before? No, there was a small corridor on the landing-place. Was the passage through the sitting-rolm ? There was a small tOrri dor ; and then going on further, to the left, there was a small room ; and then there was another room, which had a door leading into the bed-room." here is a man, my Lords, whd in one instance can 1 . 0 minutely recollect not only how many rooms, but whether they were situated on the right • or loft, and who can recollect low the doors of the moms : were situated, and yet where his testimony can by pqmi• bility make against the Bill, he calls upon you to be li2ve that he does not recollect not only tnintite cir- • . - • ‘ • t . k '4. . : A . . til Ir.° ." 4 . . . ' C , - 0 ••-, lI W -.4f ''. :4 ..I. Ao r /ivy • i in 4 0 • I A: gm!. . ~fir 4r0..40. 4 C 7 V4 4 ' 4 . . ..' . . . - , ' 3.• . . • ____...... b . . , q.c:;•.,:ziou.. 40.. A 4, • - -N 411 k ~.1 , . • .r " ) . • r 4.) 4 , •. ..--..F.02 ..v,- 4 .01.4. - 1 ' I "b \ fat. . . .... •,.. •.....„ INK. • -.....-'4 ° -- ei ..&e---- 1 4' • , _ •• • •'• • • 2 1 P ttic.EStviN =l*N cE. • lation, he ordered him away, that he might be removed front , the sight then. passing before his eyes ! For you will observe he never says that the Queen desired . him to go away, or that Ilsgami desired him to do so. The guilty pair themselves ap pear not to have cared if all the crew saw them, but exhibited in the .lieeliterranean what the ancient ocean never -saw, al though the Mate could not be allowed to remain in a ship so unfortunate as to contain two persons who stood by (though without teaching) each other. lam aware that my Learned Friends did not believe this; but whether they did or not, bosh stories cannot be true. There is no way out of it. Either this account of sending away the Mate is true, or it has been fabri cated in order to enhance the price of his own evidence, to lay the foundation of those advantages which spring from what he has termed the uncertainty of Royalty. I had intended to have made some remarks on the motives which led this witness hither, but I pass that over now to observe upon the manner in which the witnesses have been brought up. See how well drilled they have been. I will hold them up as finished specimens of their kind. Indeed, as they are the best drilled, they ought to be crack specimens. A great deal of money has been expended, and they come up'eager to earn the reward which they certainly are entitled to, and which by possibility they may receive. There are, however, limits to this act, and by exceeding those limbs, they have not agreed between themselves when sifted by a cross-examination: They seem, indeed, to be the lineal de scendants of the Doctors of old; for, living constantly together,• intimate he all respects, sleeping in &game place, breakfasting to/edicr on the very morning of their examination, still there is one subject upon which they never en t ered, an d that is the very subjectnpon which they gave their evidence. But this forbearance is not peculiar to them. MI the witnesses have displayed it. "I am not a man,"-says one, "to tell out of doors what passes here. It is not decent or fitting to do so !" Did any conversation ever take place about it? Oh, never, never; ; we agreed not to menti on i t . Thi s , my Lords, leads me to make one observation. Amidst the fears to which the publication of the evidence has given rise, amidst the apprehen sions entertained lest this step-should sap the foundation of our morals, and prove tile grave of all the modesty which still re mains in the island, it is a comfort to reflect, that there is one spot on the earth which has escaped this moral contagion, and in which this alarming calami t y h as never , by any misc hance, found an entrance ; and, strange to say, this . favoured spot is no more nor less tha Cotton-garden. Among the contrivers of the plot, those who were acquainted with the whole business in its commencement and progress, among them alone it turns out that no horror was excited ; that this transaction, so extraordi nary in itself, gave rise to no conversation; that it was never once mentioned that they alone kept themselves free from the contamination of details so debasing to moral feeling. ' If your Lordships can prevail upon yourselves to believe this, far be k from me, by anything I can say to endeavour to remove from your minds so consolatory and fine an illusion—(.l laugh).— Your Lordships may believe it if you can, if not, you must be lieve something else, and what that is, it is no difficult matter to conjecture. The course of my observations has now brought me to persons who, in this case, are of still greater importance than even the Captain or Mate of the polacre. Your Lordships will easily perceive that I mean Madame De Mont and Sacchl. I may be excused for couplihg them together, as they resemble each other, not only in mental qu alifi cat i on , butl in all the matt. rial points of their history since first they entered upon their mission as witnesses. They were both living under the slims roof in the service of the Queen. il'hey both experienced her kindness and favours. They were both dismissed from her service • both, after being dismiss e d, expr e ss e d an anxi o us wish to be t akep back. Iloth were in this country under similar cir cumstances, and nearly. during the same yeriod previous to the trial. They employed their time and money in similar pursuits. They took pains, to acquire a knowledge of the English lan guage, thereby, no doubt, to open tothenisebres an easy access to our best writers, to all the stores of our classic literature !A-- (A laugh).—lt should not be forgotten, &Avower, that by this means, though of course their only object was mental improve ment, while a question was put in the course of cross-examina. don, they were enabled to get ready their answer, or evasion, while we and your Lordships were waiting for the interpreta tion. I will not. attempt to give the character of De Mont from any impression that might have been made on my own mind. I wash merely to remind your Lordships of the descrip tion she gave you of herself. lam desirous that you should take the account from her own lips. She is a person of roman tic disposition. No WOMIIb in the world further from anything, in the slightest degree, bordering on indelicacy. She has quite a horror of matrimony. No enemy to mankind in the abstract, but never condescending to friendly and confidential intercourse with individuals--(4laugh).—Her virtuous hos.ilirt is directed set the whole sex, but particular persons. Pones entice pram inimien• She dislikes man in the abstract, bat Moms not to carry this aversion to Saccbi, whom she deign to Mani= as an Italian Gentleman.' He, 'however, will- not re. awn the compliment by allowing her to be a Lady, by' admit ting that she went under the name of a Countess. Marriage die did not like at all ; she loved . sweet liberty better, and, in pursuit of this =obtain nymph, your Lordships will perceive ilea what company she got. •Sacchi went to seek her in her retirement, and brought the Meluctant fair one to appear as a Idioms upon this occasion. Hoek she acquitted herself, your lierolships are already aware. Never, I will venture to say, was there exhibited to the world a more finished and complete specimen of a waiting-maid. No writer, French or English, his drawn the character so fully and so much to . the life, as Miss De Mont herself. There is nothing equal to it in Le Sege, Moliere, our own Cibber or Congreve. I will not pre tend to go over the whole of her evidence. it was put together is the most ingenious and, apparently, consistent manner. Until my Learned Friend, Mr. Williams, began his cross-exa mination, the caution and circumspection displayed by this ami d& Lady would have done honour to a Macbiavel, and she showed the greatest skill in endeavouring to adjust the cle. 01111111161alleal contained in her letters, and to 'make them con- . &tent with her evidence. She was not aware that these let ters were in existence. No such suspicion entered her mind during the examination In chief, otherwise you may be NM she would never have appeared at your Lordship's' liar.— She would have been shipped off 'like Other witnesses; whom it was not thought pendent to call forward in support bf 'this BILL Finding herself pressed by my Learned' Ft iend (Mr. Williams), in the cross-examination, her only resource was to say that she was in the habit of using dinsbk entadret—that it was her usual practice. Her worthy coadjutor; the Italian Gentleman awl gallant Dicer, &meld, said the same; he also ivaa.in the habit erasing double asksidre;. ' Their charactets, so iroaderfolly d ualist in ether respects, coincided in this also. They were both rand of auks esometiet. MO De Mont practised it in bet U. tem,- mid iiimehi in anversatkrr." I have heard, with no am..l sesprien, that the windage of this Lady is praised—that her eTi. deuce ism mode; on the toihds of some persons, a stroagimpres. sins, nuteleteciuse she admitted some 'facts rather injorions to isw own clearacter—beeaust she acknowledged- that sh! was Mined out of the Queen's service—that she was sincere. in some of the praises beatswed upon her jilustious Mistress, but •not in all. I beg your Lordships to attend to other parts*t her tes tiest:My. Whed • asked, " Were you'le want'of money?" The lamer woe, i 4 No."—" Whewyen - wtote to Vier sister, did you soy you were in want of Money?"--of I May say so; but it was mit tree'''. So that; Oa tennis native, according to her own necessnt,there was no differeaee'at all her mind between troth add fahillood. 'This being the' mute, Ireel no small degree of iisteshiment at the praise given to her candour. 1 nerd not tell ewe elle, Unless, indeed, a person fit only to be turned out kto the field among those anithals who are often abused hi ming theme that h e r Mgettuousnest in admitting that she somethnes spoke falsehoods, was . not to be taken al a certain' elation of truth. Was this so chehnitig h blandishment, that It melt at own Open• a favouring and credulous ear to all the 'lks this mialskie rierionage Might think proper to tell? liecau • act* tip its in 'acknowledging !acts which co.ild not be 11 0 11 04 trlillelliCtertain' detection, without ruin to heettivn p $ end she came. she was brought to support, Muse ilk esgeddev ue d 11111* kora*of doinfelettee. add 'entiattNlatin ,Olt,iswert and Satiable Swiss shepherdess! how candid, bow innocent you ate! (4 WA. 1 never before knew .anytkeig Ike china a s a prod WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 4, 1820. cumstances, but things which he; the account which he had previouslysiven, could not but - know. Can your Lordships give credit to this testimony ? I I would also call your Lordships attention to the statements which the Witness made respecting their residence at Naples. • He appears in every instance to have forgotten those answers which, if remem bered, would have been of material consequence to the defence. He does not know whether they tra velled all night, -and when asked whether they tra velled eight or four hours, he answers, that he had na watch. My Lords, that is impossible ;be who has sworn to smaller circumstances with so great a degree of nicety, could not have been without a watch. How comes he to recollect so exactly every circumstance in favour of the prosecution ? Why does he recollect so accurately at one time and al ways forget when his evidence would be suited to the purpose of the defence, or (what is the same thing) to his own contradiction ? The same want of memory occurs on board the polacca ; he knows no thing of the number of the sailors, nor can he tell where any persons slept. In short, a more daring witness was never examined in any Court of Justice." But this is not all. His frequent expression of " don't recollect" could not have been used, if he had, in the first instance, been speaking truth. He is examined respecting Mr. Hughes, a banker's clerk At first he cannot recollect such a person, and has no recollec tion of any banker's clerk. But when he sees that I hold a :etter in my hand, which, perhaps, he did not suppose to be in existence, without being asked a 'single question which could bring the fact to his re collection, he begins to recollect Mr. Hughes, and says that he called him a banker's clerk as a mark of familiarity. His familiarity, it seems, had made him forget him altogether. When asked respecting his offer of marriage to Mrs. Blickburne, he attempted to laugh away the matter, with , what success your Lordships must determine. Before I leave this part of the case, I will call the attention of your Lord ships to the shuffling, prevaricating answers which he made respecting the money which he received from Lord Stewart. He first says, that he did receive money from him, an.l then swears that he never re ceived money from Lord Stewart at Vienna. Now it is easy to guess what sort of an evidence this Ma jocchi was, for he was then laying the foundation of that favour which he has since'experienced. When employed in laying that foundation, he could recol lect everything; but the moment that a question was asked, which might have given a different colour to his representation, his recollection forsook him, and everything was forgotten. I will remind your Lord ships of that part of the Attorney-General's instruc tions, in which the act of kissing is mentioned. This circumstance is negatived by the witness, who speaks only of whispering. • I could also draw your atten tion to several other points, perhaps not as striking, but all spewing that •he has told one story to my Learned Friends, and floin which he has afterwards differed, because he found that we had the means of detecting him. He forgets his intention, because it is easier to forget what we intend to say, than to forget the truth. I will refer you to that part of the Solicitor- General's examination, where he asks, Did any onegive Bergami broth? Yes, was the reply. Did any one come in ? I don't recollect. Did you hear any conversation, or anything else? Only some whispering. It was evident that my Learned Friend did not expect this , answer. His object was not to prove whispering.— No, he opened with an account of kissing being heard, and if I had not known from the answer, I knew from the paper which he held in his hand, that whis pering was not the word which he expected. If Ma jocchi had said nothing more than whispering in his statement to my Learned Friends, the Counsel would not have added, " Or anything else" to his question. The question was repeated a second time, and whis pering again was the answer. Other instances of the same kind have occurred, and I hope . your Lord ships will not think me tedious in adducing them.— I w ill call the recollection of your Lordships to the further questioning of Counsel. Did you make any further observations ? Yes. Here my Learned Friend thought he had secured his witness. " Well, what *passed ?" "He held her." " ti hat else r im patiently inquired the Counsel. "He held her, to keep her from fallinF r With this answer my Learned Friend was not satisfied, but having something in his hand which the witness had stated in a former examination, and hoping to draw it to his recollec tion (not knowing that he was attempting a most dif ficult task), he again demanded, " Did you make any other observation?" " No," was the witness's reply. Many other anecdotes he had related evi dently springing from the same invention, but, as it generally happens in these cases, he forgets certain parts which he must have recollected if the other parts sworn to are true. I might ask your Lordships of the degree of credit due to the story, which repre sents the Queen at a time when another passage ex isted ; a passage in which no one slept, and to which she had undisturbed access (for, after much preva rication, the witness was brought to admit that there was this second passage); yet that she preferred the way in which the witness slept, through a room in which his bed stood without curtains, a fire giving light at the time ; and Oh most monstrous of all, that in order to make her detection sure, she stopped, went to his bed, and looked in his face to see if be was asleep. The story, my Lords, contradicts it-. self : is it to be credited, is it a probable thing, that in a country where she was surrounded by adepts in the art of intrigue, scorning the more private pas sage, she should pass through the apartment of a person who bad then been only a fortnight in her service, in order to commit adultery in the neit room ; that she should go up to see if he was asleep, and there.run. so strong a hazard of discovery before ese who kneW her.face, who saw her every day, and 'who kaew her to be. the Princess of Wales? This' story its a 'Own incredible stna sillitaienticin; and" odly sheias here (what often happena), that in puttin g the path together diey are found trot tott I w cle:ssr i , l e l pw al reseh s e o ni re nist m ißs in .enr d go y tao o mri u jo r ut L os o h r th l a s y h te i period when Lordships r d e t w e recollect, a l so id n ith ot thbeegilinritno dine with h er unt il some mont h s a f terwar d s . You will that he states that he knocked at 'l3eigami's room, at Genoa, on' the arrival of the Bonner; but in his cross-examination he says he did so in conseqUence of fire.. But I will not dwell upon that, I will rest upon the account which he gives of his reason for quitting the service of the Princess. I is willdisreti distinctly a u pyonprtohvaetd, with th re , for one to acu gross palpable falsehood which he could not ha ve forgotten,th at will Ix.- sufficient to dispense with his evidence entirely. He said.that he left the service of the Princess, because he did not like the bad people who surrounded her; thereby serving a double purpose, that of_ exalting his own credit, and at the same time of debasing the friends of the Queen. But this account is false, and I will prove out of his own mouth that it is false.. For when he was asked, " Did you not apply to Count Schiavini tote again admitted to the Princess's ser vice," he answered," Yes, I did; but it . was in joke." Mark tleat, "my Lords. It h possible that this appli cation might have been in joke if it had only been. made once, but made at differeht times, and to dif ferent persons, it could not be in joke, and if it was not in joke the witness is perjured. The witness was further questioned, " Did you not make several applications of the same kind ?" and he answered,' " Non mi ricordo." Now, I must say, that either this " Non mi ricordo" is perjury, or the story about leav ing the Princess is perjury ; there is no way out of it. The two stories are totally inconsistent, and if one is tree, the other cannot be so. But he told this story with a great flourish. I ask you, is it the saying of a true or a false man, when he says, that he would rather eat grass than go back to the house, when he admits he once asked in joke to be again received, and where he will not swear he did not make many applications ? I will now call your attention to the next witness, the Captain of the ship, and I will only do this for one moment. There is a something, my Lords, in the demeanour of a witness always conso nant with a true and candid story, and those who are accustomed to Courts of Justice will always observe; that when a witness is not telling the truth, he is ex tremely apt to assume a flippant manner. Now, when this witness was asked, whether the gun was on deck ? he replied, " Yes ; it was not in my pocket." I only mention this, because this was the witness of whom my Learned Friend spoke so highly, whose manners, he said, were so engaging, and whose deportment was so respectable. Again, when asked,." Did you come . in a carriage from Messina ?"—" Yes ; I did not walk on foot. But, to go into the sbbstance of his evidence, I will venture to say, that a better paid Italian was never brought for.vard. He. is paid at the rate - of-1:2400 a year as a reward for his evidence. Now, he has attempted to make it appear that this sum is to be paid him as a compensation for the loss which he will sustain. He is part owner of a vessel, which he says clears 8000 dollars a year. Now I will venture to say, that there is not a ship-owner at Mes sina who clears by all his ships one-half of that sum. The witness and his mate are not known at Messina. Had they been clearing 8000 dollars annually, their names would have resounded all over Italy ; they would have been looked upon as the richest of men, and few persons would have left this country for Italy without endeavouring to obtain letters Of introduc tion to them. The Cobbler of Messina, though known in history, would not have been so well known as themselves, if they had spent that yearly income in Messina. But the Captain has himself told us what sum he received from the Princess for the use of his vessek his own recompense, and the wages of his crew, amounting to 22 men, and it appears' that he was to receive a sum at least a fourth part less than that which he now receives for coming over to give evidence. But this, he said, was not all; he trusted a good deal to uncertaintr. This proposition contains a truth, of which many whom I am now addressing must be aware. I will only stop a moment here to observe, that the expectations of the witness may not even now be bounded by the reward actually pro mised. May he not reason thus—" If the Royal Con sort gave me so much, with an understanding that I might receive much more if she was pleased with my service, how much greater will be the bounty of her husband, if I succeed in making out the case—if,' through my evidence, the charge shall be established, I I shall then receive a'reward, to which £2400 will be but a mere joke, although that is greater than .1 shall ever get by my ship."—But, my Lords, the tes timony of this witness will be found to have origi nated in a feeling of revenge. I have a right to say this, for he has told it himself. He said that he had quarrelled with Bergami, and complained that he -was deprived of part of his recompense, which Ber gami had kept back. As soon as he made this com plaint, and desired that it might be forwarded to the English Government, he said he was told to ' I go to London; and on this account, and through this memorial, he would have us to believe the. Government first became acquainted with him.— Thus the only character in v.hioh the prosecutor knew this witness, according to his Own account, was that of an accuser of the Queen and her Chamberlain. There are some matters in evidence upon which the Captain and Mate areTound to Vary. I will. remind yonr•Lordships of that part of the examination in which the Captain says' that the Nuevo sf Wales was sitting en a gun with Salami, and that they. ware kis si ng at the time. Now I think that this is not so mansean a circumstance, teem In the Mediterranean, that the Ms* theald ibrget, or at least illrerently represent it. But, scanning to the testimony of the Mate the was Siting upon a me& kid sot en* word about kissing is to heleund in his etlio; • 'Pelops this was not at the same time? Yes, it was, kr tleiVeplain had declared, is his evideseeoltat when be ands his alleievatiess the Mae am% ilrellent. • What think yri; kispeeting this witnisa).4 mall io•serupolousA when he saw a lady.'sosibe a man e though she not whit bin% though eltFre mbrf iteghliqg improper, indeeemes, oer 104111 light In thek behavisie, tibia's% they were only leaning apihM the arm pkee, yet la his espe cial care of the morals of his Mate, and (at It appeared) his few