Star. — London, England, 1826-05-09 00:00:00

the Remo, but he conjureLthe House to beware how they injurid Ihe agricultural In of the country, by measures which were to mush calculated, as he considered these to be. to • *IN into the manufacturers the most unfounded feelings of ill Will to the landed owners. -- Mr. Home Somme and Mr. STAIILIT. having risen at tke same time, there was* loud call for the latter Gentleman, who, however, gave way. Mt. H. SUMNER said, that his sentiments were in perfect unison with tie se of his Hun. Friend the Mem ber for Wareham. Ile thought the present measure likely to be productive of great evil,, of which, the least was not, that it would induce both the Agriculturists and the Manufacturers, but particularly the latter, to imagist, that it was only the forerunner of a total repeal of the Corn Laws. He could not see the necessity of the measure, and was determined to divide the House against It, even though he stood alone, as he considered it the duty of any Gentleman interested in the prosperity of agriculture to oppme such a motion. Mr. STANLEY expressed his hearty concurrence in the measure, and trusted that the Ministers would have the support of a large majarity in i•s favour. He re- 1 vetted the harsh opposition that had been made to it. as he feared that such opposition would tend to create bi•t r f cling in the manufacturing districts. Perhaps he was iuduced to feel too strongly in favour of the main n, from the circumstance of his having spent the last fortnight in those quartets, and having personally observed the extreme distress of the manufacturers. He saw there the greater number of the looms out of ens• ploy ment, and those weavers who were employed work. ing each man for from ss. to 6 .6d. a w.ek ; whole families starving for months on *one meal of oatmeal a day, and bearing even that privation with a most com mendable spirit of patience, rather than apply to the Poor Laws. This personal experience of their digress night make him possibly too warm on the question before the House; but in his despair of a better remedy, he clung to it perhaps as a drowning man would eatch at a straw ; he bailed the slightest ray of light that gleamed on the gloom of their distress. He agreed in :he opinion that the present measure would alleviate the distress without iefluencing the fate of the Cora Laws, as it was but a temporary and partial expedient ; and that the mob there did not impute their distress to the Corn Laws, was evident from the fact of their confining their Colence to the destruction of power looms. This measure was anxiously to be hoped for, as it would show a de'ire on the part of the House and the Government to attend to the interests of the manufacturing classes, and to reconcik them to the landed in terest. If be refused to give his assent to the measure. he could not think he acted consistently with his feelings or his sense of duty. Colonel WOOD lamented the misapprehension abroad of use separateness of the manufacturing and agricul tural interests. He contended they were inseparable; and that the home market was the most profitable to the manufassurcr. He understood the price and duty of the import a torn were to be specified in the Right Hon. Gen. demur's Bill.—(No, No! from the Treasury Benches.)—lf not, it was leaving a dangerous discretionary power in the hands of Minis tees ; and he contended that the price of corn ought to be made a guiding rule. In the Committee, he would take the sense of the House on the necessity of fixing a particular import duty. Mr. Secretary PEEL admitted that he had said, that the opinion•that 80s. or even 70s. was the maximum at which corn could be at present admitted was a fallacy, as the average being struck from the relative prices for three months, it was evident the price may continue to stand so high as 100 s. so long as six weeks; and, on that ground, he . bad argued that the Government ought to possess a discretionary power of regulating the admission of corn according to the passing circumstances of the times; but, in making that statement, he begged to be understood as not having intended, in the most remote degree, to express an opinion on what ought to be the remunerating price to the home growers of corn. Sir M. W. RIDLEY maintained that the manufacturing and agricultural interests were so inseperable. that wrong to me was eventually injury to the other. The principle of the repeal of the corn laws was salutary to the agriculturalists, ask undoubtedly was to the manufacturers. Mr. F. LEWIS gave the measures his support; the more so, as he himself belonged to the landed interest, which interest he con ceived was not in the remotest degree injured by the present mea sure. The present measure, if not a remedy. would be at least an alleviation of the present distress, and was therefore entitled to the support of the House. Mr. JONES would not oppose the bringing up of the Report, but was net therefore pledged to support the measures founded on it. Mr. J. SMITH would vote for the present measure; for he cm. tended, that had not Ministers brought forward it, or a similar measure, they would be justly to blame for neglecting the interests and sufferings of the distressed manufacturers. He preferred k however in its original form, not placing too great reliance in the professions of Ministers. Mr. BARING could not agree with his Hon. Friend in applauding the line of conduct chalked out by the Government, because it appeared t r him to be what no one could read or understand. An Hon. Gentleman on the other side seemed to think it of great advantage that they should have the power of shifting the price of corn at pleasure, so as to make it suit the view they took of the circumstances of the country from time to time. Now, this he considered as the greatest possible evil. From the time when the Corn Laws were first agit .ted, when the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite ad vowed the present system in 1815, he had constantly opposei them, thinking the amount of protection much too high, and that they were altogether open to many objections: therefore any objection which he should make to the present measure would not be owing to the fair tar with which he regarded the Corn Laws, but be cause he thought that not a day should be lost in enter ing into such a revision as should end in placing them upon a permanent and solid footing. Why this was not done last year he did not know. Ihe present was also to pass ever, and tLe consumer, the dealer, and the grower were to Le left without any other knowledge of what was to become of the price of cot n, excepting that it was at the disposal of Government. The Hon. Member then contended that the Government had acted most inju diciously in touching the currency under the particular circumstances of the country. If they had left the ship to right herself, the distress would long since have sub sided, they should have heard nothing of the want of food at Nlanchester, and the settlement of the question of one pound notes might safely have been left to the next year. By the course pursued by Government, all the distress was aggravated. The measures they adopted knocked from under all the little traders from one end of the country to the other the little capital upon which they carried on their affairs. There had been no want of goods, or of market; all that they wanted was capital, with which trade could be carried yet the Ministers ran heedlessly and without cause iato a course which rendered capital far more scarce than it had bten before. The difficulties of the manu facturing districts had long been known to exist, and nothing was done; but as soon as a riot and same symptoms of insubordination took place, down came the Right Honourable Gentlemen—he would not say hi6htened, because their courage was equal to that of others—but in what the country thought a panic, to ask for these extraordinary powers.— He wit. in'ormed that the Committee over which the Right Hon. Gentleman at the head of the Home De partment presided had come to the conclusion, that in England there were to he no one pound notes, in Ireland their were to be three tound notes, and in Scotla n d (as I i ~~~ we understood) one pound notes wire still to continue. This was to be the beaaful theory of our currency. He was not, thee, prepared to trust in their hands, whatever respect he might hire for the Right Hon. Gentlemen opposite, a power by which the price of food was to be regulated by a Government which had she* n such inconsistency and vacillation. What he thought they ought to do was, to apply themselves at once to the whole question of ihe Corn Laws, and deliberately settle it upon some permanent basis. With respect to, the objection that the present period was unfit, he de clared that he never SAW a time when the Country Gentlemen were more reasonable in their view•, or when he should have been so willing to go into a Com mittee with them for the purpose of investigating the sub ject. With the exception of one Hon. Gentleman who had spoken that night, he had heard no one defend the prin ciple of the present system without modification. With that one exceptioh, everybody agreed that the ports should be open at a protecting duty; the only question was the amount of that duty. He should say that this could only be ascertained by experiment. He 1 . 1-ntld think that from fifteen to eighteen shillings would se cure a price of batwee.t fifty-five and sixty shillings a quarter; and that was what he sv.h.d to see it. Yet, it they fixed such a duty now, he should not be sur prised if next year they were called upon to alter it. He did not know what was to prevent ,the Inquiry taking pl ice now. In the early part of the Session it was said that the measure respecting the currency prevented it, because it was nece,sary to bring gold into the country to supply the vacuum in our circulation occasioned by the withdrawal of small notes. That objection could not now apply, because by emptying the warehouses of foreign corn, they wou'd row be filled up again, as it was most desirable they should, always holding in their own hands the key, to let it out as it might be wanted by the country. There was another advantage in beginning the experiment with the present year.— According to Mr. Jacob's report, the supply of corn on the Continent which could be sent here was not very great; and that was because it had not been grown w.th the expectation of an English market. if the sense of the House in any way agreed with him, what he should propose would be, to go back at once into Com mittee, and enter upon the enquiry as to the state of the Cori Laws. Therefore, when the Report was brought up, he should move that it be referred back to the Committee for this purpose. In importing the Corn now in bond, he saw no reason why it should pay a duty of 12s. except that 12s. was the amount which had been paid on another occasion. When the Bill went to a Committee he should propose that the duty be 151. and he should do this because he did not wish to send forth to the country a price of duty which he knew in his own mind would not be a prAection. Besides he was certain it would corns in just as well, and not a farthing dearer to the consumer, at a duty of fifteen, or seventeen, or eighteen shillings. The difference would go into the pockets of the Prussian corn dealer, or others engaged in the trade. Upon the present occasion he should content himself with objecting to the abrogation of their most important duties and placing them in the hands of Gentlemen who had so mismanaged an subjects of this nature. Mr. C. WILSON agreed in the views so ably expressed by the lion. Member who had so lately witnessed the scenes of distress which were so common in some parts of the country. Ile entirely concurred in the motion for receiving the Report. Mr.WHITMORE could not but agree with the Hon. Member for Taunton, that the great power proposed to be vested in the hands of Government without .re. straint could not fail to produce considerable effects upon the agricultural interest. He was an advocate for an immediate alteration of the Corn Laws, and that, too, at a less rate of protecting duty than the Hon. Member for Taunton. If his measure had been adopted by the House, he should have followed it up by pro posing an increasing scale of duty in proportion to the descent of prices. This he thought would have prevented the panic likely to take place under the present measures of Government. His late lamented friend, Mr. Ricardo, amp guarded himself in the same manner against exciting the alarms of the agricultural classes. He argued that, on the contrary, the measures of Govern. went were calculated to do anything but tranquillise the coun try at large. Mr. IRVING said he was surprised to hear the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down complain that the Government were proceeding in a course calculated to excite alarm in the country. If there was any Member in the House whose conduct had tended to create alarm and panic, it was the Hon. Member. (Hear.) He had at an early part of the Session given notice that he would bring forward the important question of the Corn Laws. He then postponed it from time to time, and when the House decided that the proper time fir entertaining it had not arrived, what was the conduct of the Hon. Gen tleman? He gave notice that be would bring it for ward again in the next Session, and continue to do so,' in case of failure, until he should completely succeed. If this did nOt create uncertainty and alarm among the agricultural interest, he knew not o hat would. He was of opinion that the Government was not free from blame in respect to the present unfortunate state of the country. They had not sufficiently observed the symptoms which had presented themselves for several months past, and which had been aggravated by a too great and rapid contraction of the currency. He agreed with the Hon. Member for Taunton, that if the ship had been left to herself she would have Lighted, and we should now have seen her riding in safely. What the Hon. Member had stated as the general opinion upon the subject of the Corn Laws, namely, that the ports should be thrown open at a protecting duty, was not, he thought, the opinion of the House. Sure he was that it was not the opinion of those connected with the agricultural inte rests. They were satisfied s ith the principle of the pre sent system, when they saw that it worked well. It did not, perhaps, square with the philosophers of the pre sent day ; but he, as a plain practical man, was sa tisfied with it for one ; and although he would con sent to modify the sycenr, yet any measure which went to destroy its principle should meet his opposition. The Honourable Member then referred to Mr. Jacob's Report, to shew the difference between the expence of producing corn in Germany and in this country. He contrasted the condition of the foreign labourer with our own, and expressed his hope that the difference would be preset ved. The labourer in this country had wants which existed in no other country under the sun. He hoped those wants would continue; for to supply them he must be industrious and virtuous. He was surprised to hear the lion. Member for Taunton first declate that the question might be settled upon a per manent footing at once, and then that nothing could he done but what would be purely experimental. He felt no objection to give the Government a d.scretionary power to meet any evil that might arise, only he would propose to give it them in another mode. The evil anticipated was, chat a scarcity might posohly occur in the month of August, and that no relief could be obtained under the present law, in less than three months, because there must be an average of 804. upon the six weeks' prices before the pats would open. Now he would give the Government the power, whenever theyriee of wheat should nsaeh 701. with -reference to time, to openlhe ports tor foreign train. Mr. Wurntolut and Mr. BASING explained. Mr. HUSKISSON, with reference to what had fallen from the Hon. MeMber for Bramber (Mr. Irving), ob served, that nothing would give him greater satisfaction than if the subject of the Corn Laws should next See. sion be placed in his hands, on the part of his Majesty's Government, to profit by the assistance of the Hon. Member. With respect to the observations of the Hon. Member for Taunton, that Hon. Gentleman must by this time perceive that the inconveniences alleged to arise from the absence of Members from a discussion were not imaginary; for by his absence it was apparent he was rather in arrear with respect to this subject. He asserted that the prices of corn had not been rising during the last six or seven weeks, whereas it had been stated in that House, as he would have heard had he been present, that the prices had risen from 545. to 60s. during the' last six weeks. He also st tted, that a proposition of 12 shillings duty on bonded corn had not been adverted to, whereas it had been distinctly discussed in the Rinse. With respect to the charge of inconsistency brought by the Honourable Member f r Bramber against tie Hon. Gentleman, he (Mr. Hus. les,on) thought it perfectly just; fur the Hon. Gentleman had said that the Corn Laws should be settltd—that the question should not be left uncertain—that no man, in the present state of things, knew what his rents were. He (Mr. Huskisson) admitted that the rents of land were affected in some degree by legislating on this sub ject ; but surely the Hon. Member could not mean that the rents of land were wholly governed by it. This was a great and prevailing error, which produced much excitement. The Hon. Gentleman suggested that the question should be faxed; he followed up this sugges tion by saying that there should be a duty of 16s. or 18s. and the House should " feel its way." Tne lion. Gentleman thought the measure so simple, so easy, that he quarrelled wi h Ministers for nut giving it the finishing stroke; and professed himself ready to refer the matter to the Committee, and by disposing of it at once, in the space of a few minutes, enable every man to fix his rent, and determine the price of corn.— The Hon. Member for Bridgenorth had said, that this meddling with the Corn Laws would occasion great alarm; and if so, certainly that would be a great evil. But then it ought to be kept in view, that there might be another ground of alarm, lest they should not have a sufficient supply of corn to carry them on to the next season. Some Gentlemen said, that an alarm would be excited by the measures now under consideration, and that this would occasion a rise of prices. Cer tainly, if an opinion should prevail that a great scarcity was apprehended, that might cause a rise of prices for a time; and the opinion that an abundant supply was to be had, would tend to reduce the prices. But an alarm from an opinion of abundance, and an alarm from apprehension of scarcity, were incompatible. He had stated on a former occasion, and he now repeated that statement, that the 500,000 quarters of grain pro posed to be admitted into the market would not mate. rially affect the prices. But the great alarm appeared to arise from the proposed introduction of 500,000 qrs. of foreign corn. But Gentlemen appeared to forget that this was a mere measure of confidence in the discretion of Ministers. It did not follow, from the vesting of this dis cretionary power in the Government that Ministers were bound to admit this quantity of corn. No foreign corn would be admitted, unless the necessity or expediency of it should be evident. Ministers wanted to have the dis- zretionary power, without any limitation as to quan tity ; but various objections had been made to this, and it had therefoie been . thought proper to propose this limited quantity of 500,000 quarters, because it was thought that no more would be wanted. The measure, however, was submitted by Ministers merely as one of discretion ; and although they were willing to confine themselves to 500,000 quarters, yet, if circumstances should turn out to be such that more would be required, then it would be the duty of Ministers to admit a larger quantity upon their own responsibility, or assemble Par liament for the purpose of procuring its sanction.— He begged leave to recall to the recollection of this House what happened in 1816; and then they could not but be sensible of the expediency of vesting this discretionary power in the hands of Government.— In that year the harvest was very deficient, a great part of the corn having been injured by the rains; and yet the potts were not opened till November, although the price of wheat was at 100 s. per quarter. They remained shut during the months of August, September, and October, notwithstanding the great advance of ;slice; and then, when the ports were at length opened in the month of November, countries in which the harvest had otherwise been deficient came into competition with this country in the market, and prevented that ample sup ply that might otherwise be obtained. He was as sensible as the Hon. Member for Taunton of the incon venience of this occasional legislation. But he chal lenged any Member of that House, even the staunchest supporters of the Corn Laws, to say that, under the present circumstances, these laws might to be allowed to come into full operation. No one would venture to say so; and they were bound, therefore, to give this discretionary power to Ministers, or adopt some other measure that might obviate so great a calamity.— He was almost ashamed even to have said this much after the eloquent and powerful appeal made by the Hon. Member for Stockbridge, not only to the judg ment, but also to the feelings, of the House on the de- Llorable condition of the manufacturing population of ancashire. That appeal must surely convince the House of the expediency now of the necessity of adopt ing some such measure as this, in order to convince the people that there existed in Parliament a decided dispo sition to do everything in its power for alleviating the present distresses. Some Hon. Gentlemen asked why the question was agitated at all until a permanent measure was resolved upon? He would ask, in his turn, why had the quest on been agitated in the last Session ? Others again had taunted him for not having come down to the House much sooner with a proposal to set free the bonded cora, in order to prevent its rotting in the warehouses. But with respect to the general question, be had only W repeat what he had often said before— that it could not be conveniently brought under dis cussion till the arrival of a period of more calm, and less distress and difficulty; and as to the proposition of the Hon. Member for Taunton, for going into a Com mittee, and considering the whole subject of the Corn Laws, that Hon. Member would do well to consider whether the adoption of such a course at the present moment, would tend to allay the alarm, and relieve the calamity under whieh the manufacturing diurieu were anw labour, ing. In his opinion the effect would be the very reverse, and he cer tainly could not approve of that proposition. The measure aow under consideration was evidently called for by the citcumstancp of the country, and he trust... it would therefore be mactiosed by the Rouse. Sir L. KNATCHBULL opposed the measure, and !expressed his surprise that the Bight llon. Secretary for Foreign Affairs, who had deprecated any rfiscussin a upon the general measure, had brought forward 4 measure which he must have known would lead in evitably to the discussion which he so much deprecated. He would prefer that Ministers should act upon their own respon .sibility, in preference to the present course. lie did not mean to contend that the principles contended for by the proposers of this measure were, In the abstract, unsound or incorrect, hut be con tended that the application of those principles to the state of the country were unwise and impolitic. Mr. Secretary CANNING.—I can assure the Hon. Baronet, who has just sat down, that I listened, both to his observations on the practical measure under the con sideration of the House, and to his exposition of the general principles involved in the great qnestion, out of which the measure itself emanates--I cannot say with out any feeling of sorrow, but certainly without any feeling of displeasure ; freely conceding to him, that, in explaining frankly, as he has done, what his opinions and sentiments upon the occasion are, he has done no more than discharge his duty, but requiring of him, in return, that he will at least give his Majesty's Ministers credit for being, however mistaken he may deem their policy, however illusive their views, actuated by the suite consciousness of rectitude. It appears to me, Sir, that a great part of this debate, like the concluding topics of the Honourable Baronet's speech, has been very far vs ide of the practical ques tion. That question I take to be this—There exists in the country at the present time a law for regulating the trade in corn; a law enacted under particular cir cumstances, and which, at the time, were constantly used as justifying its introduction, and of which law it was considered that the extreme provisions never could be carried into operation. In thus stating the question, I am very far from presuming to give an opinion, and certainly I - do not wish that any opi nion should be inferred from %%hat I say, as to whe ther or no, in a state of things such as that in which we now are, or whether or no, in an ordinary state of things, this law could be suffered to go inro full esecu tiOn without inconvenience to the country. Nor is it necessary that I should g i v e an op i n i on upon t hi s ques tion. Itis sufficient for the purpose of my argument, that I insist on the fact that there exists now a state of tkitrgs the reverse of what existed at the period of the passing of this Act, and a state of things which was appealed to as possible at that time as condemnatory of the Act itself. Without meaning to impugn the de dared opinions of Hon. Gentlemen who oppose the propositions of Ministers upon this subject, I take, as a proof that it is as I state it to be, the fret that no man who has spoke against the motion has ventured to say that the extreme provisions of the law, as it now stands, could now be carried into operation without creating apprehension and alarm in the country.—( Hear, hear!) I am fully entitled to deduce this important conclusion from the abstinence of my opponents in this particular. My Hon. Friend who spoke last, and who said pretty nearly every thing else on his own side of the argu ment, did not venture to say that ; nor even did the Hon. Member for Surrey (Mr. H. Sumner), who led the discussion. It being, then, admitted that this mea sure, however good in itself, however justified in its origin, however adapted to an ordinary state of things, cannot now be put in force without exciting alarm and apprehension. I say, Sir, that a case is made our, in which Government have a duty to perform, obrsoloos, indeed, to certain prejudices which we may have to en counter, but unopposed by any reasons that I have yet heard urged against it. Then, Sir, if Government inter fere, there are two ways by which the end in view may be attained, and also two means of interference of which the Government have choice. They can accomplish the object in view by a permanent alteration of the law, as recommended by the Hon. Member for Taunton (Nit-. Baring), and others; or they can devise some measure adapted to the particular case with which they are called upon to deal. The two means of which Govern ment have the election, are, to act either upon their own unaided, unsupported discretion, or by the previous advice of Parliament: Now, Sir, I hope it will be seen that I have fairly stated the case—(Hear.) If there is any one in this House who will maintain the proposition, that the extreme provisions of the Corn Laws may now be carried into operation, there will be a fair issue between his Majesty's Ministers and him. Such a one will be a just and fair antagonist ; and he w.ll be at liberty to say that the whole of our proposed course of legislation is vicious. But, until that proposition shall be maintained—and often as Honourable Gentlemen have been challenged to come forward and support it, no one has been found to accept the citallenge— the reverse may fairly, be assumed as undeaiable.— ( Hear). Why, Sir, even the Honourable Member for Brecon (Colonel Wood), who is the only one who has approached any thing near to maintaining the proposi tion I have adverted to, even he has varied in his pro pose's, for he has risen ss. since the last debate in the price at which he would allow the opening of the ports. He, Sir, who would have the Corn Laws permanent and unaltered, has agreed, pro hac vice, that ti e restrictive price should be al ered from- 80s. to 70 , . The other night, Sir, the Hon. Gentleman bad the price down as low as 655. but this morning came a letter to me by post, expressing a hope that I should come into his proposal that 70i. should be the rate at which corn should be admitted, and all would be wel'. I suppose, Sir, that the Hun. Gentleman having gone out of town since the last debate, and having an op portunity of looking into his fields, thought 70s. would look much better than 655. and so substituted, without a word of comment, the one sum for the other.—(Laugh ter.) The least the Hen. Gentleman could do under suck circumstances, however, was to abstain from charging me with inconsistency. But, however, Sir, here we have that Hon. Gentleman and the Hon. Member for Bramber, who both stoutly stand up for the main tenance of the present Corn Laws unaltered, admitting the principle of a change of some sort to meet the present exigency. This, Sir, is all I want from them, for this is an admission of the propriety of a tem porary alteration, or rather suspension, of the ex isting Corn Laws, from the mouths of our prin cipal opponents. If there were any real opponent to the measure we should propose, he should say, I stand by the price fixed by the law; I wont alter the law ; wont lower the price, nor will I admit the bonded corn ! This would be a real, substantial opponent ; but here the Hon. Gentlemen who are foremost to offer oppo sition to the proposals of Government, are ready to agree to the admission of 300,000 quarters of bonded wheat, and are ready to lower the price to 70.. Now, Sir, I Member lSlem berforfor ssauyr,retyla;at by b y thethe ad ad m m i s i s s i s o i n o n o o f t th t H ll o o n n . . Brecon; by the admission of the Hon. Member for Kent ; and by the admission of the Hon. Member for Brnmber—there is an exigency in the present state of things sufficient to warrant a change of some sort..