Star. — London, England, 1813-04-10 00:00:00

India Company were io combine the characters of' Sovereign and Merchants. Any decision on that point mast he Condemned. It had been said, with a view to deter the adventurer from visiting the shores of India, that the manners, prejudices, and customs of the natives were unchangeable, and con sequently unfriendly to European commerce. It was true that the prejudices of the natives, their customs and habits, held out no encouragement to the traders in ,certain articles, yet there was ground to believe that perseverance and proper measures might induce them to change vow of their habits in favour of British and European) mercleandize. It was evident that the natives had varied from their former preju dices and customs in favour of merchants, or the India Company could not have gained the mart for their commodities which they had acquired. The Natives became attached to European customs, from a conviction of the benefit derived by adopting the same. The Seapoys wife better troops than the Na tive troops, because they inured themselves to British discipline, and in that instance the Natives were in clined to change their prejudices. The Noble Marquis considered the question of the Government of India, and contended, that our Empire had been governed in the best manner, in conjunction with the India Company. The next subject which called for his Lordship's observation was, the state of the Laws in India. The power vested in the Company to send any European from India who had not a licence, could not exist in case the British merchant was invited to carry on a free trade. It would be necessary to repeal that law. In case it was not repealed, a gross imposition would be practised on the merchants who might carry their goods to that part of the world. There were also bye-laws which the Company claimed, in opposi. ton to the laws established by the Supreme Court of Judicature, which could not remain effective. If ad venturers should be admitted into India without re straint, the happiness of the native subjects would be Infallibly disturbed. The next point for considera tion was, how far the Resolutions were applicable to the mixed political and commercial policy of the Company. In a general point of view, the character of the Company was in the highest degree beneficial terthe indigent classes of the manufacturers. The sys tem, as now established, operated beneficially, and any derangement of it must be attended pith the most pernicious effects. The influx of adventurers into India must produce a continual conflict betwixt the Company as sovereign, and the traders who came out • in consequence of the law. Unless the control of the whole were vested in the Company, no good agree ment could possibly ensue. The third Resolution permitted ships from any port of England to go to any port of India, even without the settlements of the Company, as to Malacca, Siam, &c. At this be certainly was amazed. Where could these ships find Custom-house Officers to give them a clearance? Here the Manifest Act could not apply. The per mission given to private traders of trading to the' Eastern islands must necessarily affect the China , trade, and through it, the whole of the India esta blishments ; for if the India was separated from the China trade neither could be conducted with advan- • tage. The India trade was in itself not profitable, and would not benefit individuals if admitted to it. But still no part ought to be disturbed, as it enabled ; the Company to meet their payments both in India and in England. Whatever had a tendency to derange ; the Company's receipts in London, would also tend to prevent them from discharging their functions.— At the India House the whole of the articles was sold at a stated price, and the interest of the Company and_that of the revenue co-operated ; but, in respect. to the revenue, the most valuable part :of the India products could not be admitted to a free trade. But now the regularity of the sale secured the revenue, and also the interest of the manufacturer. To open the outports would necessarily encourage smuggling, up St. George's Channel, and along the coasts of Scotland. Means of checking this had been prepared at a great expence, which then would be wholly use less. Of the respectability of many of the individuals who would embark in this trade, he had no doubt, but then the House could not legislate upon indivi dual character. The duty in London was taken upon the sales, but at the outports it was to be ad valorem ; private traders could not go to all the ports, because there was no clearance. In many cases, the Custom house Officers were satisfied with the mark, as open. ing the packages would injure the article, and in one case, a package of stones had been passed upon the officers for tea. It had been said, that the ports were not to be admitted to the trade till they were in a proper state for carrying it on; but in many of the ports it would be impossible to give any security to the revenue. A great capital had been expended, particularly in London, upon the supposition of the continuance of the trade in its present channel, and a security had been given, as far as regarded the imports. Was that to be withdrawn in order to give delusive hopes to the outports ? It had been said that nothing was more improper than to interfere with commerce, and that the best way was to leave it alone. That prin. i ciple, however, must be limited by some exceptions. Would the importation of goods into India either in crease the demand, or furnish the means ? The pre sent system for India affairs had been sanctioned by the authority of the late Lord Melville, whose opt- 1 nion upon that subject was entitled to the highest respect. If the India Company was to be the organ of Government, the power must be vested in them with certain limitations.. To the 4th, sth, and 6th Resolutions be should not object. With regard to the 7th, on the subject of ship-building, he should fist state, that ships built in India were liable to British registers, and seamen within the Company's territories were _British seamen in the proper con struction of the Act. Their rights, then, should be ascertained, and the restrictions imposed by the Re solutions were unnecessary and impolitic. • With re spect to the . outports, the Resolution was vague, and it was not clear where the power was to be lodged. What was asked was certainty. To the 9th Resolution he had no particular objection, and upon the subject of th e 11th he should afterwards speak. Great benefit had, no doubt, arisen from the amalgamation of the power of the Crown with that of the Company ; but he never meant to say it could not be improved, net that, by a judicious application of it, many objections might not have been remedied. At present the controul of the Royal power was not sufficiently active to infuse more vigour into that of powers. The commercial and political characters of the Company were irreparable. But that did not apply to their accounts, which formed a different question. Why then - should not the Crown ex ercise power over the political characters of the Company ? The state of the army was a very important consideration, and the disorders have been principally from the nature of the Civil and Military Authorities, and the jarring of the Governor and the Commander in Chief. Of this he himself had experienced nothing. Though on that account he had applied - either to be relieved from his situation, or to have the commission of Captain General. Such misunderstandings arose from the Undefined nature of the Civil and Military Authorities. The constitution of the army rested upon a principle in a great degree erroneous, that of profit, unconnected with the prin ciple of public honour at home. But no body of men could be more loyal, or more ready to make every sacrifice. The Seapoys, too, had on many occasions sacrificed the customs, habits, and prejudices imbibed from their earliest years. But honours granted to other Officers had been denied to Officers serving in India. As there was nbw a great reduction of their emoluments, he hoped they would not be excluded from the honours given to others of a similar descrip tion. The army must be under the direction of the Company, but a greater portion of honour and publi ' city should be given to those who had distinguished themselves in the service. The case of foreign ad , venturers had been wholly omitted in the Resolu , tiOns. Such, however, might go out to India, and, beyond the verge of the Company's settlements, would be wholly exempt from the operation of every law. That did not make the influx of British ad. venturers more safe. On the subject of theEcclesi- astical Establishment, he had aliays thought it did not test upon a sufficiently respectable footing. Put it upon that footing, it would make the national cha racter more respectable. Whether the mode pro posed was the best, would be a more proper con sideration elsewhere than in that House. But great precaution should be used that there might be no collision betwixt the Civil and Ecclesiastical Autho rities, and there was reason to fear lest the intro- duction of any great novelty might create alarm.— The. Resolution contained not a word as to any sys tem of education, civil or military. It was strange, when the Church Establishment was under considera- lion, that the question of education did not occur, ; nor that, as here, learning and religion should not have been combined. Upon the subject of instructing the nations in the doctrine of Christianity, any thing of that nature should be done gradually, and should be left to work its way by means of establishment of education, and a general diffusion of knowledge, ra ther than by any exertion on the part of Government, as a recommendation on the part of Government would be equivalent to a command. Such was his opinion, and such had been his practice. When he was in India, the residence of the Missionaries had been chiefly in the Danish settlements, and he had never heard of any objection to any part of this con duct. Some of them he had employed as teachers in • the College of Fort William, and others in translating the Scriptures in the language of the country. No order had been issued to force the Scriptures upihn ! the natives, but they had been left open to them, through the medium of the Oriental tongues. A Christian Governor could not do less, nor should a British Governor do more. The plan proposed by Ministers.held out the Company as the organ of Go vernment, while it took away from them all the means of supporting it. It took from them the power of the penal law, it menaced the revenue with a great diminution, and the manufacturers with the greatest danger, from a mal-administration of trade.—The Noble Lord concluded by moving for the following Papers : No. 1. Copy of a Letter from the Governor-General to the Court of Directors relative to the Private Trade to India, dated the 80th of September, 1800. No. 2. Copy of a Minute of the Governor-General, relative to the College of Fort William, dated the 18th of August, 1800; together with copies of the Regulation for the establishment of that College, dated the 10th of July, 1800, and of the Statutes of the College of Fort William. No. 3. Copy of a Letter frora the Governor-General in Coun cil to the Government of Fort St. George, dated the 19th of July, 1804, relative to the internal Government, and mode of pro viding the investment at Fort St. George. Ne. 4. An Account, chewing the amount of duties of customs, and of any other duties paid in every year during the last five years, to the Governments of the East-India Company in India, on the trade to and from Great Britain. No. 5. An Account of the establishments of officers of customs throughout India, with a total expense of the same. No. 6. An Account of the average annual amount, for five years, of duties paid to his Majesty's Revenue of Customs and Excise in England, on all goods imported from India and China, exhibiting the gross average amount of duties received, the charges of collection and management ' and the net average amount of the respective duties paid into his Majesty's Exchequer. No. 7. Copy of a Letter from the Governor-General in Coun cil to the Court of Directors, in the Financial Department, dated the 10th of October, 1812. No. 8. An Account of the description and amount of supplies furnished from India to China, in the years 1798 and 1812 re spectively. No. 9. An Account of the description and expense of the com mercial establishments of the East-India Company in India and China, on an average of five years. The Earl of BUCKINGHAMSHIRE felt that he could not remain silent, from the official situation in which he stood, and therefore would proceed to offer some observations on the speech of his Noble Friend. His Noble Friend had set out with charging his Majesty's Ministers with having brought forward a system for the future government and regulation of India, without having procured or laid before the House such previous information as was requisite on so momentous a subject. This charge of his Noble Friend he considered most extraordinary, for his Noble Friend well knew that a Noble Lord on the other side had moved two years ago for a. Committee upon East India Affairs. His Noble Friend well knew also that there was a most voluminous Report laid on the Table by that Committee; and, lastly, he knew that he himself had never been seen attending :hat Committee. Under these circumstances, he con sidered the charge of xis Noble Friend a most ex traordinary circumstance. With respect to what had been said by his Noble Friend on the present occasion, he acknowledged the ability which he had manifested, and he agreed with him entirely in the statement he had made of the advantages which had flowed from the Government of the East ludia Company.— ' The Resolutions which had been laid before the to be regarded as the foundation on which an 'Act of Parliament was to be beilt, subject to such modifica tions, u the wisdom of the Legislature should think it right to make. It was not fair, therefore, to argue that the ltesolutioas were defective, because they4►d not embrace all those details which would be the sub- ject of future arrangemen , , and were not complete in every part. His Noble Friend had found fault with the order in which the Resolution• had followed each other, and particularly with the second; but the rea son that Resolution had been placed in-the order in which it stood was, that it was desirable that all parties should distinctly know the terms on which it was proposed to open the trade and to-yenew the Charter, for many had expressed a wish that the trade to China should be open, and it was of impor tance on that account .that this part of the subject should be discussed and decided before any other. His Noble Friend had expatiated at much length upon the dangers likely to resultfrom an unrestricted intercourse with India, and had conjured up a phan tom, against which he had exhausted the powers of his eloquence, hut there was no person who could for a moment suppose that such an intercourse could be permitted without endangering the safety of the 8.-lash Empire in India, and if his Noble Friend had taken the trouble of reading the letter addressed by him (Lord B.) to the Court of Directors he would have seen that it was proposed that all the salutary restraints which had hitherto existed should be con- tinued. He had heard of treaties being concluded, by which the subjects of a foreign state were placed on the footing of favoured nations; but he had never heard of any treaty by which a state excluded her own subjects from those privileges and advantages which she granted to a foreign Power. He could not conceive how it was possible for Government to resist the application which had been made to them for an extension of the trade in favour of British mer. chants. The Noble Earl then adverted to the sub• ject of India-built sbipping, which; he said, required regulations with a due regard to the interests of the different parties. On the whole, he heard no one ar gument advanced, or fact stated by the Noble Mar quis, which could induce him to depart from the views he entertained upon this subject. Lord GRENVILLE entered into a consideration of the general points. It appeared to him that the Resolutions as well as the Speech of his Noble Friend, appeared to consider as primary that which was se condary, for they made the concerns of the Company paramount to every thing else, and they desired them to consider whether they were to be continued in a commercial capacity for a political purpose. The true way of procteding was, first, to st a te their real situ.:- tion—secondly, the duties imposed by that situation ; and, lastly, to determine what they wished to do, and to consider the instruments by which their will should; be carried into effeat. The Resolutions were grossly defective in not beginning with a distinct assertion of the sovereignty of the Throne of Great Britain over the Empire of India. Until they had done that they ad done nothing—it was by that alone they could surmount the difficulties attendant on the ad mission of foreigners into India. If they proceeded talegislate for India on this basis, the first duty im posed on them was to consider the happiness, good government, and security of the people of India.— The situation and interests of the East-India Com pany were inferior and secondary to this. In consi. dering those interests, the evils which must arise to the commerce of a country from the union of a sove reign character, were numerous; and he might state, from the best authority, it was impossible for a sove , reign to trade to profit. The Government of the country could no longer continue in the hands of the Company ; for from 1765 1' 't0 1784, scarcely five years elapsed without some strong case of maladministra tion being made out. The defects of its Government had been radically vicious. His Lordship said he was an advocate for free trade. He did not conceive that the East India Company ought to be the organ of Government in India. The patronage attached to India, he contended, ought not to rest with the Com pany or the Government, but in both to be extended to meritorious young men, who might prove, on exa mination, fitted by talents and education for service in India. By such regulation, our Indian empire would be supplied with able and skilful Officers, and merit at home rewarded. The Earl of LIVERPOOL said, the question was, whether the Government of India, in its pre sent state, was applicable to the welfare and interest of sixty millions? His Majesty's Ministers' could have brought this discussion to an end much ear. tier, if they had not entertained a belief that India might be governed different from its present form of government. From 1781 the greatest advantages had arisen to that empire. The permanent settle ment, if followed up, would do away the mischief and discordance arising from the Asiatic mode of taxation. His Lordship proceeded to the question , of commerce, and stated, that he was prepared to shew, that nearly all the commerce of the world had been established on monopoly. Circumstances, how. ever, had proved of late, that a new zra bad ensued, and that it was necessary to prevent monopoly. They could not prevent foreigners from trading to India, and the question was, Whether they should open the trade to the Merchants of England in preference to foreigners ? He did not look at the trade in a nar row view, but was disposed to throw it open to all Iltitish subjects. Another great consideration was the peculiar situaticn of South America, and the fa cility which appeared of carrying on trade between the East Coast and India. By an open trade, the British might secure that branch of valuable com merce, and by restriction they might lose it for ever. On the question of Civil and Mercantile Govern ment, his Lordship conceived they ought to go toge ther ; but, in the opinions which himself and Noble Colleagues had formed, they were (Teo to and ready to adopt any propositions, having for obj.2ct the wel fare and security of India. After Lord LIVERPOOL had concluded, the (,fines-. tion was immediately put and negatived, without a division.—The House adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS. A Message from the Lords informed the House that the Lords had agreed to the Felony Transpor tation Bill. A new writ was ordered for the borough of St. Mawes, io the room of Mr. Shipley, who vacated his 1 he Bermlida Trade, the ScotcliCredltars', and the Etchequers Bills Bill, were severally read a second time, and ordered to be committed on binnclAy. Sir W. SCO FT moved for leave to brine in a Bill for the bc.Nr Regulation of Ecclesiastical Owns, and for the more easy Recovery of Church RAN. in F.ng. land. Leave was given, and Sr W. Scott brought up the Bill, which was read A fi st, and ordered to be read a second time on the 28th i.,st. Mr. GRENFELL moved f•nr eopies of several do. cuments relating to India : and he ished th et .en Hon. Baronet opp'site would postpone a motion of which he had given notice. Sir H. MONTGOMERY was ready to postpone ceis mnt;on. The papers moved Inr, which consisted of letters :rom the Court of Directors to the Governors in In. dia, were then ordered. AFFAIRS OP INDIA. The House, on the motion of Mr. VANSITTAR T s resolved itself into a Committee tut the affairs of India. The first witness called, was Alt-. Bruce Smith, who had resided 40 years in India. He was exa mined respctirig the demand for European g, Kids, %Oki,, he said, was very little. Tile. rummers .he people had (lever chang'd while he was there ; and There was nn likelihood of a chanTe in manners to cause any demand for European commodities. Ile *as convinced, that an unrestrained influx of Euro peans into India would produce great mischiefs there. Captain Lindsey was next examined, and gave a similar evidence. Mr. J. teary was next called in and examined.-.. He had resided upwards of So years at Calcutta, in Bengal, chiefly as Agent. He was tully convinced that the supply of Eutopean goods, under the pry sent system, WAS more than equal to the demand ; and from the general character and habits of the natives, he did not consider it at all likely, that the consump tion of European articles would increase. Consider. able loss had arisen on investments nude to India from this country during• the last five or six )cars. The rest of his evidence as to the danger which was likely to arise from the indiscriminate admis.j3n of Europeans into India, the impolicy of interfering in the religious establishment of the country, or at all altering the present general policy of the Government of that portiun of our Empire, was precisely the same as that of the witnesses who precek!...A trim. The examinations having concluded, the ll , iuse resumed, the Chairman reported progress, and obtained leave to sit again on Monday. Mr. Kingston presented sundry Accounts relative to the East India Company. CHRISTIANITY IN INDIA. Mr. W. SMITH said, he held in his hand a Pe tition from certain persons, Dissenters, residing in London at.d its vicinity. This Petition was signed by o n ly 100 persons, but it expressed the sentiments of upwards of 10,000; its prayer was, that measures might he taken in the granting the New Charter to the E:ist India Company, to forward the spreading of Chr:s:i.inity in India. In presenting this Petition, the Petitioners did not pray for any dangerous inno vations, but merely that no impediment might bit thrown in the way of such persons as might wish to ` devote themselves to the forwarding this great object. The Hon. Gentleman concluded by moving,that the Petition should be read, which was accordingly done, and it was referred to the consideration of the Com i mittee on the Bill for East India Affairs. PUNISHMENT FOR HIGH TREASOg. Sir SAMUEL ROMILLY moved the Order of the Day for the House going into a Committee on the Bill for the punishment of High Treason. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL declared his in tention of opposing the Bill in some future stage. After some further observations from Sir Sauttets 4 ROMILLY, the ATTORNEY-GENERAL, Mr FRANICLAND, Sir J. NEWPORT, Mr. CHOKER, Etc. the Bill passed through the Committee ; and on the question for the report being received on Monday, Mr. FRANKLAND objected generally to the Bill, and moved as an amendment, that the repast should be received this day six months. Sir JOHN NEWPORT supported the Bill, and contended that the disgraceful barbarities directed to be inflicted in the punishment of high treason, by the law as it at present stood, but which were never cm-a ried into effect, ought to be el ased, even in name, from our statute book. Mr. W. FITZGERALD was of opinion the law should be preserved as it at present stood, as tending to prevent crime, and therefore he supported the !amendment. Mr. COURTNEY supported the Bill. He though; it was disgraceful to our Statute•llnok, that a punish. ment should remain on it so dreadful and so barbs. rous that 'the general feeling of the country would never suffer it to be carried into execution. He thought some alteration in the law should take place, though he did not go the whole length of do present Bill. Sir W. GARROW supported the law as it at pre. sent stood ; the severity of punishtnent was intended to prevent the commission of crimes by those %AG saw that punishmcnt inflicted. He considered the law as it at present stood as one of the safeguards of the Constitution, and therefore he should support it, and oppose the piesent measure. Mr. PONSONBY supported the Bill: he was ar:onished, indeed, at the Assertion of the Hon. Gen. tkman, that this barbarous punishment was one of the safe-guaids of our Constitution. On the contrary, he was persuaded that the exhibition of such punish. ments only tended to render depraved those who wit. nessed them. - Mr. BATHURST supported the amendment, on the grounds, that it was necessary to distin gu i s h Treason from other crimes, as being of a more atro. cious nature. The punishment directed by the Sta. tote was ri.lver carried into full effect ; yet, he was persuaded, its standing on the Statute Book, tend e d to prevent the commission of crimes. Sir S. ROMILLY replied, and expressed his d e , termination, if his Bill did not now pass, to brkg it in again next Session ; also a , lother tor t iking way the corruption of Woo.l in cases ot High TreAson. The House then divided—For the Report being r e . ceived on Monday, 60—For the Amendment, The Bill was consequently los!. The other Orders were then disposed of, a n d t 1 House adjourned at Ono o'Clock to Monday.