Star. — London, England, 1820-06-14 00:00:00

~••;. s • _ - • N ib • t • s! • • . . • - • • • noust oirLoaps, JUNE is. In a Committee of Privilege% their Lordships reedved %wi dower in verification of the claim of certain Irish Peers to vote at the Election of Peers to serve in Pediment on the Put of Ireland. . On the House resuadng, Viscount Dimas took the oaths and his seat. The Marquis of LANSDOWN presented a Petition from certain Timber Merchants of the Port at Leith, in Scotland, whist any alteration in the Timber Derties.—Ordered to lie on the table. On the motion of the Noble Marquis, a Message was ordered to be sent to the Commons, requesting that Arszaszurs. Roma arm, Esq. one of their Members, be allowed to attend, for exa mination, on their Lordships' Select Corundum on Foreigh Trade a id Commetce. Leave was granted to tire libel of Snimrtiza, on his Lord ship's Minifying his acquiescence, to attend the Petersfield Elec tion Committee, as requested by the Commons. The production bf certain Documents was ordered, on the Noble Earl's (Suovvinn) motion, including -an Account of the Importation and warehousing of all kinds of Grain In the course of the last year. The Customs Regulation and Transfer Grants Bill passed through Committees of the whole House, and were reported. •.• • • Akikl4ll 4 lNAl ,rIiOoSEDINGS. ELECTION OF scoTen PEERS. The Earl of ROSEBERRY moved the second reading of the Bill for regulating the mode of elect ing the Representative Peers of Scotland. ,His Lord ship briefly pointed out the inconveniencies which the Bill went to remedy. He said their Lordships had, at various times, passed Resolutions affecting the Election of Scotch Peers, but no provision had been made for the case to which . the Bill applied. Ac cording to the existing mode, any subject might, on the assumption of a tttle, - before his claim was esta blished, give his vote, and the Returning_Officer could not, as the law now stood, refuse it, although all the Peers of Scotland should protest against it.— He was aware, that in some instances, the Returning Officer had rejected such votes, but in so doing he had over-stepped the bounds of his legal authority.— Yet there was scarce any Election in which some votes were not justly protested against. He appealed to those Noble Lords who had attended on such oc casions, whether he made an over-statement, when he said there was no Election in which there were not some votes given that all present looked upon as unfair. • He trusted that this made out a case de serving of the Legislative interference of their Lord• ships. It was very necessary to guard the Peerage from the intrusion of those who had no lawful claim, and to make the power of protesting, not a nugatory, but an efficient privilege. He then stated, that the leading principle of the Bill was, that all persons as suming the right of voting for Scotch Peers, should qualify themselves by previously proving their title before a Committee, except the sons and grandsons of Pet rs. A regulation of this kind -was acted upon in the case of Itisl Peels, where even the direct de scendants were under a necessity of making out their legitimate title before the House; and it was also re quired that the heirs of English Peers should esta blish their right by the production of the necessary legal evidence. There was, of course, some expense and trouble attached to it, but it was not to be put in competition with the guarding an impottant right against the possibility of violation. As the measure was prospective, no existing right of any individual could be touched by it. It only prevented future claimants who assumed a title on collateral grounds, from voting before a Committee had decided upon the validity of their claim, leaving the direct de scendants in the same circumstances in which they already stood. He trusted that their Lordships were satisfied of the necessity of the case, and that it was manifest the irregular practices which took place at the Election of the sixteen Representative Peers of Scotland, were derogatory to the whole body of Electors, ::nd required some such measure as he pro posed, to obviate and remedy. Lord CATHCART said, that he should not op pose the principle of the Bill, but he thought that the same object might be more properly obtained by a resolution of the House. He thought, at least, that further proceedings in regard to it should be deferred until it was seen whether a resolution might not be passed to the same effect. • Lord MELVILLE was of opinion, that the Noble Lord who had introduced the Hill was entitle& to the thanks of the House. He did not think that the Mime object could be obtained by a resolution of the Ems,. If their Lordships thought it could, he was satisfied; but in the view which he at present took of the subject, Le thought the Bill necessary. But there was one consideration which he would suggest to the Noble Earl—he thought it proper_and advise able that the brothers of Peers themselves, and the sacs of Peers, should he included in the same excep tions with the sons and grandsons. _ Lord LAUDERDALE said that the Bill was ne. cessary ; the present mode of election required mo dification. He said he could himself make out 15 or 16 voters having no real Claim, whose votes on the day of election would be as good as those of any of the Peers of Scotland. He meant for that day only—(A laugh ).—He agreed with the Noble Lord who preceded him, that it was not competent for a resolution of the House to do what this Bill went to enact—because a resolution of the House couhl not take away a right vested by law. All the Peers of Scotland had, as the law now stood, a right to vote without previous qualification; but the Bill went to divest a certain class of that unrestrained privilege to which they were at present legally entitled in the Scotch Peerage, and the case of the sons of Peeresses in their own right. He stated that it was customary for those who petitioned the Sovereign as claimants of a title, to vote before the merits of their petition were decided upon. This ought not to be in any instance allowed. Lord MELVILLE said a few words in explanation. The LORD CHANCELLOR said, the House was indebted to the Noble Earl (Roseberry) for his exer tions on this subject. There was a great defect in the law, as it regarded the title of Scotch P eers . A s it now s tood any person might vote who, prince facie, appeared to have a right to the title which he as sumed. He would not enter into the question whether brothers should be put on the same footing as the di. rect descendants ; but he thought the law affecting Irish Peerages a salutary one, which required proof to be made.out before the House, of the legitimacy Of the claim of both the sons and grandsons of Irish Pam. It certainly imposed a painful daty, but it was a regulation that was strictly observed even in cases where its application was known not to be at . ~..• a •. s. - • 4 • • , _ \ • \ all necessary'. The general principle was, however, England. itieu to be remembered, and tolse Mien as' good, that in proportion to the responsibility such against these large profits, that in 1806 and in 1808 ought to be the caution. the Bank bad advanced two kiwi td dittioverts- The Earl of LAUDERDALE said a few wbrds meat . The Joan of 1806 was advanced it.an interest, ow the difficulty of . proving the marriage of Scotch of 4 percent . the loin of 180§ wti to be repaid within Peers, on account of the various modes of marriage l a cartes number of years, s without bearing stye which existed in Scotland. • terest at all ; and this. latter was so adiliced by . The LORD CHANCELLOR said, he was aware Bank upon the specific ground that the Poblic would into of that difficulty. He had heard Counsel argue to thereby come participation of the advantages shew' there were several'hundredways of entering which the Bank had hitherto derived from holdmg into the matrimonial state in Scotland, and he was these monies. This was a very material circum sometimes inclined to believe; from.the eloquence and stance ; but he ,considered that the most imPortant cogency with which they enforced their arguments, feature it presented was this—that the Bank, by so that the said Counsel had themselves three or four doing, recognised this right of participation, and thus hundred wives !—(4 Iriao). the case stood from the year 1806 till 1817. He held The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered in his hand a paper, for which he had moved it the to be committed on Friday next—Adjourned. conclusion of the last Session of Parliament, by which ' HOUSE OF COMMONS. it appeared that the deposits in question amounted at 'There being two ballots for Election Committee,, the gallery the period to which the Return was made up; to Was not opened to strangers till put five. about eleven millions and a half. At the close of the In consequence of a Message from the Lords, A =AND= last year, 1819, they had been reduced to no more nOIZIIIIOII, Es t was ordered to attend their Lordship.' Com mittee on the Foreign Trade Bill. than four millions and a. half, and it appeared that a further reduction of them had been effected since On bringing up the Report of the Committee on the Ayr end Calder Navigation Canal Bill, January last ; so that they amounted at present to DLL BERNAL opposed that clause which exempted the about E 3,700,000 only : a reduction, consequently, Canal from the charge of Poeit-rates. bad been effected of between six and seven millions ; The dame was supported by Admiral Soutzetox, Mr. S. w olmo . and Sir J . Gn.knoin. — The discussion was proceed . and that was ro be attributed, first of all , perhaps , in& whet: to the contraction of pecuniary transactions upon Mr. Lils appeared at the Bar with,tbs reduced List of the the conclusion of an expensive war ; although this' Committee chosewto examine the P et i t i o ns a g ainst the Penryn cause he was not inclined to consider so operative' Election. The names were— as other Gentlemen appeared to have imagined. e t P. Williams, Chas. C. Mi Cbeere, D. Sykes, • Sir J. Boughey, lion. li. Neville, C. Mlison, Sir N. Colthurst, Right lion. his J. N. W. 11. Colborne, R. Lester Lester, Stewart, C. Harvey, , Gemge Mundy, IL Metcalf, W. R. Boughton. The Members were then sworn, and retired. The following Members were elected to verve on the Com mittee for trying the merits of the Ipswich glection C. 11[1.1°rib-inks, M. Russell. R. H. Clive, Sir W. Rowley, T. W. Beaumont, • Brogden. —lt seemed to him that the great reduction of the public monks -lodged in the Bank of England was principally to.be ascribed to the attention which Go vernment had bestowed upon the subject during the last four or five years. In proof of this, he need only instance theintroduction of two Acts; by one of which, Lottery Prize Tickets and Unclaimed Di ?ides which r ly had accumulated in the C. Duncumbe, T. Baring, Admiral Sotheroir, J. Caster, W. S. Lucelies, Lied Althosp, Lord Brudenell, J. G. Larnbton B. Wilbraham. . The discussion on the Ayr and Calder Navigation Canal was resumed, and the House divided— For the Clause - - - 77 Against it - - - 60-11 Mr. LITTLETON presented a Petition from certoin Manu facturers in Staffordshire, complaining of distress, and praying the House to take their caw into consideration . —Ordered to lie on the table. Lord ARCHIBALD HAMILTON presented Petitions from the Coachmasten og Edinburgh and the Corporation of Perth, complaining of the present system of Burgh management. —Referred to the Scotch Burgh Committee. Mr. RICARDO moved fur a Return of the total number of Gallons of Foreign Wines, together with the Excise paid there on, imported into the Pint of London, from the sth of July, 1786, to the Sth of July, 1819, distinguishing the French Wines from the others; also fur a similar Return of the total Number of Gallons of Spirituous Liquors imported in the same period, together with Excise Duties paid thereon..—Ordered. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved, That the Order of the Dry for the MO reading of the Mutiny Bill be read.—lt was read and discharged, ind the third reading fixed for to-morrow. Lord NUGENT intimated his intention to move for a re duction of the number of meal at present specified in the Mu-1 tiny Bill. Lord ARCHIBALD HAMILTON, in consequence of this Bill bens:, fixed fur to-morrow, would beg leave to pot cfi his motion relative to the production of Papers regarding the Coaunissioa of Inquiry into the Courts of.,,kstice in Scotland, until us-morrow se 'might. Upon the motion of Mr. N. CALVERT the Order of the Dry for the Ballot on the Limerick Election .was postponed till Tuesday, the 90th. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER brought in a Bill for raising the sum of £5,00:',030, by way of Annuity.— Read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time to morrow. Mr. CALVERT brought up the Report on the Bakers' Re. golarion Bill.—The Bill was directed to be, read a third time to-morrow... BALANCES OF PUBLIC ?'ONEY IN THE BANK. Mr. GRENFELE, in rising to move for the pint ing of two papers, containing Bank of England ac counts of public balances, and of money payable for the management of the public debt (which pa:lc:• were presented ye-terday), would detain the House but a very few minutes. But as, in that very select House which he had then the, honour of addressing. there might possibly be some. Honourable Members who had not sate in the last Parliatrent, he should feel it his duty briefly to advert to some of\the rea sons upon which his motion was founded; and, al. though he was well convinced that the sort of war fare which had existed between himself and the Bank of England (in saying this he could assure the House that there was upon his part no feeling of hostility) was now pretty well over, yet the necessity not seem to him at all lessened of impressing this important subject upon the attention of Parliament. He repeated his belief that that warfare had ceased in consequence of the recognition by Parliament of certain principles which he (Mr. Grenfell), in com mon with ether Members of that House, had always strenuously maintained as proper to be observed in the relations existing between' the Government and the Bank of England. In what he had to say he should carefully abstain, as he trusted he always had done, from inquiring into any of the private trans actions of the Bank of England with which the House had nothing to do, and from proposing any thing which was inconsistent with those principles of good faith and fairness which had always distin guished the transactions between the Government and the Bank. It would be proved by documents, which were already in the possession of the House, and to which any Honourable Gentleman might re fer, that during a periird of not less than from ten to twelve years the Corporation of the Bank of Eng lanl had been in the undisputed possession, as he might say, of large sums of public money, deposited with them as haulers, amounting to an average du ring that period of between ten and eleven millions sterling. He had always taken the sum so deposited, whenever he had occasion to revert to the subject, at eleven millions. The average interest of that sum, according to the current value of money in the same space of time, had been ITOt less than 1:575;000 per annum. Therefore, the sum trade by the Bank, as by interest upon those balances, had been the same as it would have been had the money been deposited, with any private banker. He begged the House would remember what had been the observation con tained in the Report of the Committee of Public Ex penditure in 1817. He need hardly remind them that that Committee was distinguished by the names of Mr. H. Thornton, Mr. Sharpe, and others, who - - could not-be regarded but as the highest authorities on these questions. That Report estimated the loss, a i which the Public sustained, by reason of so large a sum of money being locked up 10 the Bank of Eng land, as little short of 000,000. This certainly WAS ,an enormous amount: but, in justice to the Bank T , r• 7", . . . .. , 7 4' . . .. . - . • • . • vi .ads, .rich formerly hands of the Bank to an immense amount, could not thereafter exceed in amount, if he remembered rightly, about £lOO,OOO. There had been also a very wise regulation adopted in regard to the Exchequer issues, which had tended to reduce the amount of public monies lodged in the Bank. At present the money was issued only once or twice a week, as It might be wanted. The next of these causes wasahe Act of the last Session, by which the growing produce of the Consolidated Fund was made applicable to the public service. It had been stated by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, although he (Mr. Grenfell) did not see how it appeared, that these balances were now, in fact, reduced to only £2 600,000. It was, however, very clear, that a hereas the Bank had been accus tomed to hold between £11,000,000 and £11,500,000 of these monies. they held last year little more than £4,000,000. The practical object which he had in view in moving for the printing of these pap'ers, was to invite the attention of the Chancellor of the Ex chequer to a very important consideration arising out of them. He was very sorry that he did not see , that Right Hon. Gentleman in his place, as he really, did tvish to ask him whether, in the present state of , Awls' finances—he (Mr. Grenfell) would not say the alarming state, but he was sure that with the Chan- 1 cellor of the Exchequer even he should be justified in saying that it was a most anxious and difficult state of finances—when they were so loudly called upon by every part of the country to adopt decided and practi cal measures of economy and retrenchment; he would ask the Right Hon. Gentleman, whether this deposit account was not capable of still further reduction ? —And for this purpose, it was necessary to consider 'A hat was the nature of the service performed by the Bank of England in this case, and what was the com pensation proper to be paid for it? Now it must be known to almost every Honourable Gentleman, that ,hat service was, in fact, nothing more than the simplest of all possible banking transactions. It was ery advantageous to the Public, no doubt, to have such large sums in so safe a keeping ; but, with re spect to the premium for their management, it was necessary to observe, that that management was as simple as possible. It occasioned less trouble to the Bank than was undertaken by any single London banking-house in its dealings with a country banker. In the year 1807, it was paid by a sum smaller than that which he had noticed as arising in other years. In 1807, it was about £400,000; in the present year, rating the value of money at £4 per cent. which he thought he might fairly do, they were now, in effect, paying to the Bank, for the same management, 4.140,000 to £IFOOOO per annum. It was for the House, then, to consider whether a further reduction might not be made in this deposit account? If a fair arrangement / could be made between the Govern ment and the Bank of England (such, for instance, as that of 1808, when the Bank advanced monies without' interest, by way of.admitting the_Public to a participation of advantages), it was his opinion, that this account might even now be made a source of public saving, to the amount of not less than £lOO,OOO a.year. He should therefore move, "That the account of the aggregate amount of public ba lances, deposited for certain periods in.the Bank of England, and which account was presented from the Bank. yesterday (Monday). be printed." Mr. PE ARSE said, that those deposits of balances to the amount of eleven millions and a half which had been allowed to remain in the Bank, after it had advanced Government a loan without interest,•did not continue, as might have,been inferred from the Honourable Gentleman's (Mr. Grenfell) speech, in the hands of the Bank for ten years afterwards ; but were gradually reduced, from time to time, to seven, five, and six millions, and so on. The Hon. Gentleman might have dwelt at greater length upon the advan tages which Government and the country had derived from the conduct of the Bank, in a variety of in stances. By the issue which the Company made of silver tokens, at a time when silver was very scarce, and which was made fo'r the public accommodation, the Bank lost upwards of £700,000. Then as to the advances which the Bank. had made-to Government at 3 per cent. why, the difference between that rate of interest and 5 per cent. amounted to a loss 14 £60,000 a year to the Bank. (The Honourable Gene tleman contended that the Bank had always acted a generous and manly part, wherever its services had been required ; and read _an extract in - of his . support assertion from a letter addressed to the Directors by the late Mr. Perceval, in which he observed, that the liberal disposition which had been manifested by the Court of Directors, in their handsome con currence with the arrangement he had suggest , - • had occasioned him very great pleasure). 1' : 11c.- t nourable Gentleman went on to observe, that t!ie7 could never make a better bargain for the remitae ration of this management than that which alrerdy existed; and to thew that for the replacing of stock, which had, in softie inStaneesi been fraudulently c!,_ tamed by improper parties, and roe other very i ir.- pbrtant services, the whole sum received by the lia• k ibf England last year did not exceed £282,000. lie ' declared, that jeerer). instance where the Bank w is said to have derived advantages in consequence of 'deposits of public money, he could show another to prove the advantages which the Public had ittped from the services and capital of the Bank. Mr. G RENFELL, in explanation, maintained, Ilia% within ;the last twenty-two years the whale profits of the Bank Of England were to be ascribed to its cen lietion with the Government.. From 1794 to 179.3 or 1797, their dividends averaged about (it per mt. But, during the last tenty , tVio years, a profit of £30,000,000 sterling had been divided among ti Proprietors and Company, He did not speai unadvisedly, for he was himself a Rank Proprietor. The Hon. Gentleman who had just spoken had re marked, in the course of his speech, that the Bank of England annually paid to the Government f. 90,044 for stamps : but all private Bankers were obliged :u contributp proportionally, in the same way; te the Revenue; and the Bank would have to pay arinswit larger sum for stamps than this, if it were put oet ti e same footing with the Country Banks: Mr. PEARSE explained. Mr. T. WILSON (Member' for -the City of Lon don) admitted, that the profits of the Rank in for mer years had been very latge t but contended, that if the risks they run were considered, as ari: it fici:n forged notes, bad bills, &c. it was proper management, in the case in question, should be 1i t rally repaid. Mr. RICARDO conceived, that if it were true, as had been-Stated by Mr. Hearse, that the Bank had made no larger profits in consequence of its col.- flexion with Government, and its retaining these ba lances, than any private concern which might have held them would have made, the Bark RlUst have managed its own aff airs very badly. The Honour able Director had mentioned, as one of the great advantages which had accrued to the Public from the acts -of the Bark, the lending of a sum of money without interest, to the Government. But the thing was differently represented, he (Mr. Ricardo) could well remember, by the Court of Directors at the time. The Bank was then in this situation:— It had been allowed to increase the amount of its capital, instead of dividing a larger amount of pro its among the proprietors; that is, instead of making a larger dividend, it had been permitted to add to its capital; and the understanding was, that the loan of £3,000,000, upon which no interest was to become due, was a boon to the Public in return for that per mission. At some former period's, the remuneration to the Bank must have been enormous, or it was now !very considerably_ underpaid. But his own opinion upon the charge of management was, that the ba lances in question were now so small, that it was hard} necessary to have brought the subject before the house, or to have founded upon these papas such a motion as that contemplated by his Honout able Friend (Mr. Grenfell). Mr. BROGDEN did not wish to interfere in this discussion ; but, in the absence of his Right Hon. Friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer), of whose thsence Honourable Gentlemen were all aware, and which was known to have beta occasioned by un avoidable and, most imperative circumstances, he could not but deprecate the discussion of so import ant a subject on the ptesent occasion. Mr. GRENFELL observed, that if the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who was aware of his (Mr. Gren fell's) intention to make this motion, had expressed the slightest desire for its postponement, he should have been very willing to accede to his wishes. In the absence of any such intirhation, he was not con scious of the improptiety attributed to him by the Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Btigden). He remarked that, in his opinion, for doing the business of the Public, the Bank received from £300,000 to £3.50,000 too much ; and that, in the whole managelnent bf these concerns, the Chancellor of the - Exchequer might save £200,000. The Bank of Ireland were paid nothing ; and in America the interest on the National Debt was discharged without any emolu ment to the Bank. Mr. PEA RSE said a few inaudible words; after which it was ordered that the paper be printed. Oa the motion of Mr. BROOD=, and after a remark from Mr. &AWAIT on the areal publiceibpublicimportance of the measure, the King's Beach Nisi Prins Bill was postponed until tomorrow. The Report on the Insolvent Debtors' Bill was bronht up and agreed to. Mr. W. SMITH presented a Petition from certain Dissenters against the Marriage Act. Mr. BROODEN, for Mr. &tient Oros ow, gave notice d two motions for the Sth of July; the ore to regulate the Accep 31142 S of Bills of Exchange, and the other connected with the Practice of Attorniea. The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and . du House adjosmied at Half-past Seven. ..„ A Paper has been printed, by order of the House of Commons, shewing-the state of the Public Debt 01 the Empire, funded and unfunded, as it stood at t',:e StlfofJanuary, 1820. By this it appears, that fre unredeemed debt of Great Britain and Ireland, rt the sth of January, 1820, amounted to £856916,925. of which the total annual charge - amounted to £49,592,152- This enormous masi of debt has been since increased by the late Loan: The red.:emed det4 standing in the name of the. Commissioners, for ire reduction of the National Debt, amounts to the scan of £420,828,751, of which the Public has to bear the charge. Thursday last, a numerous and respectable hoar of the Catholics of Ireland held a meeting in Dublin. at which the arl of FINGAL presided, and adopted their Address to his MAJESTY. Mr. Bacivouaar, Mr. DENMAN, and Mr.WiLiea Av. held a long private conversation yesterday Moving, during the sitting of the Courts in Westrninseer-Hali supposed to be respecting the affairs of the4PEE I 4 in one of the recesses near the window of the court of Exchequer. Yesterday, the Society for Me Suppression (g i 17 :te served Mrs. CARLILE, of Fleet -street, with notice to attend at the Crown• Office, in order to nomina'e forty-eight persons, as Special Jurors, in the cause of the King against het, for • selling the 9th Number of the Reysiblacan, and Paine's Lye, by Sfieru;in. . - • • .; •. • • • • ,• • •e,;-: -) . 21•1111= • mmorimo 4.m...0.1 arrant The more exhibi would vulsioi shed a " So their re seems t stands i on: BALD QUEEN diate a an hen sultatic SAL uumer Intl PILL b lances learn, have a man's 111101111 million thousa nearly this sa ever be the Pa persevl G. pre of Mu The which larg the fol The Mlectc the vol these toral each lively tile it preset t4eCtel Cham Deptil • Alt atesio new, suit *i ter of imam; Chair Ott I whit% .1 - ,~