Star. — London, England, 1806-05-22 00:00:00

• Ht nouraMe Gentleman mutt alto be thoroughly con. ' vinced of the inaccuracy which fomelimes may una voidably take place in thefe publications, from the .i i batty mterie. in which their ll:dements are made up. r For his own part it. was impollible for him to fay. whether the t eport of a debate that took place twenty year, tince, w.s perleßls entre& or not. Mt. YORKE Rated, that all the delays in auditing the accounts in the War Department, were to be at tributed ro the fame caufe, namely, that the bulimic had t vergrnwn the means of expediting it. He agreed moll cordially as to the neceffity of fomefuch streafure as that which the Noble Lord bad brought toward, but would not pledge himfelf to a fupport of all the details of the plan,, which might be thought by the Noble Chancellor of the Exchequer, to be a proper remedy Int loch abufes or irregularities as may be found to elfin. Mr. WINDHAM, in explanation, obferved, that the Rigitt Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Role) had had a better opportunity than he had of afcertaining • $ what was the real Hate of the bufinefs in the War Departu.ent, as lie had been in office during a time of peace as well as war. When he was in office, he could ftate,,that the tradtimen's bills, which were fent as vouchers. were compared with the regular official accounts ; and that, he believed, was all that was at that time in their power to do. Mr. BRAGGE BATH ults.r concurred with an Hon. Member, who had fpoke before, as to the ne• ceffity of introducing Come legiflative provili tit, like that which had been this night slated. At the fame time. however, he did not think it was right to cen lure clerks indifcrircinately, when,generally (peaking, they had made as much exertion al, circumffances would poflibly admit of. The SECRETARY at WAR confirmed what fell from every one of his predecelfors, as to the impoQi. bility of forwarding the accounts in the War Depart ment tinder the prefent fvßem. Lord CASTLEREAGH defended the flatements of the ltiAlit Hon. Gentleman, (Mr. Role) and de clared that, to his knowledge, the progrefa of the public accounts were completely arrelted, in the of fices to which the debate referred. Mr. ROBSON thanked the Noble Chancellor of the Exchequer for his having brought forward the prefent plan ; and hoped that the names of defaulters would be expofed, in order to prevent the future from happening again. We never had a Chancellor of the Exchequer before that was Co manly as to make a public declaration of his difcovery of the moll exten- Eve abaft, and hit determination to provide againli the recurrence of fuch abufes in future. THE ARMY PSTIMATES. The Houle having gone into a Cominittce of Sep ply, on the motion of the Chancellor of the Etche qua, the Secretary at War's Accounts, and thole lately prefented by Mr. Vartfittart, were, purfoant to a prevtous order to that died, taken into 'confidera don by the Committee. The SECRETARY at WAR then rote to move his refolutions grounded on thofe Minutes : The eitirctates of the indent year differed but little in their amount from aloft of the preceding year. He could : t not withhold his tribute of praife from the illuftrioua Commander in Chief under whore aulpices the army bad been railed to its preterit Rate, in which it was the objet of his Majelly's Government to preferve it, and, if poffible, to augment it. In preparing the ellimates for the prefent year, they had turned their attention to what all men, converfant in military affairs, knew to be one of the great leading principles of economy, and that was to make the difproportion between the real effeftive army and the number voted as fmall as poffible. If it did not appear in the prefent ettimates that there was a confiderable diminution of expence, it was becaule many augmentations had taken plate in the courfe of the lag year, particularly in the et valry, the ordnance, end the waggon train, a confi &Table diminution in the expence of which was now propofed. In the cavalry, the regiments were to be reduced from tOOO to 800. The foot guards were to be reduced from 140 men a company to 130, and the waggon train was to undergo a diminu tion of 1728 men. The difference which this would I make in the eltimates of the prefent year would be as , foilow , : Saving by Redualosit In Cavalry £35.5. 000 Ditto root Guards - 18,eo0 Ditto Waggon Train • 9 0,030 . ..-- Total raving by Reductions - 363,000, In the whole of the ellimates (including the Volun teers), there would be a diminution of 934, t 0. from which, it the diminution whit refpeet to the expence of Volunteers was fublirafted, which amounted to 472,0001 them would remain 4620921. as the total diminution of expences, in confequence of the reduc tions to be made. General TARLETON then rote, and requefted the Right Hon. Gentleman to Rate the items which made up this total En. He could underfland how the 363,0001. might be faved by the teduCtions in the cavalry, the font-guards, and the waggon train ; but lie could not fee what was to tweil this rum to 462,1921. The SECRE'I'A RY at WA R continued, and laid, that he hoped, in the cootie of his ll.ttement, to lets'' , the Honourable General. He Mould firft proceed to Rate the total amount of o u t effective force at home and abroad, including the troops let ving in India, and the fecund battalions. He fhould take doh num ber at the following periods : IR at January t ;:c6 of May stn(- - '2,10 ~ 15 sit ;150,994 17,041 Tt appeared, therefore, that while our a:my liras incteafed by ahnve ten thoufand men, the expence of it would be uiminiihed by near half a His Majelty's Government miOit therefore take credit for having provided an army on much cheaper terms than their predeceff o s. After the head of guard; and garrifons, the next head which prefented itfelf was, that of the regiments ferviug in India ; but, as the EaR India Company paid the whole expence, he Ihould not Rate them in the eftimates. Next came the recruiting eflablifitment, for the regiments which came under the fame obfervations. '1 he next head was, the recruiting Raff contingencies for the fttpply i of the army. This had been ellimated lilt year at I 50,0001. recruiting eltablighment, 50,0001. contingen cies and 2y,occl. for the recruiting atablithment in Ireland. The tame Turn would be lufficient for the ptecnt year, although fomewhat a greater proportion fbo.lld be albwed for the recruiting ellablifhment in Itcland. In the next head the Hon. Gtnecal (Tule ton) would find Inme of thole redultions which he kad been looking for, and that was in the general Oaff of the army.. Tne ellimated reduOi_n was 54,5531. but the real reduelion would be conlidera• bly more, and would, as he fuppofed, amount to sto,oool. This difference would proceed in a great meafure from the ddcontinuance of the 13rigadier. Generals to infpeet the volunteer corps, who were in future to be infpeeted by more fubordinate officers. There would be alfo a reduftion in the expense of the Militia, on account of the number who entered from the Militia into the Regular Army. The next elti• mate he had to Rate with great pleafure was rcipeet • ing the Volunteers. He hoped this Ratement world do away the unfounded alarm which had prevailed very generally about the fimpofed intention of Go vernment towards the. Volunteers. It would thew that as ample a pinvilion was made for keeping up that body as was continent with the rides of econo my. The chief difference was with relpeet to the Volunteer Officers. Ix was intended that for the fit tore they (hould not in any cafe have, the command of Field Officers of the line.. When he z ecolleeted how zealoufly and meritorioufly thole Gentlemen had come forward in the defence of the country a ,lre could , hardly believe there was a tingle Volunteer Officer who would be dnratisfied at not being allowed the command over Officers who had been regularly bred. The ellimates for the Volunteers were as follow : • For the Lit year t,6agooo Fur :he pram! . . 'pax .° Total of raving smoch , • - • This furry included 135,0001. for clothing, which would fall in after the prefent year, The Right Honourable Secretary then read (in a. very low tone of voice) the different items which formed the total firm, at which lie reckoned the laving in the existence ,for Volunteers: among the principal itemi were ;98,e001. to be laved by discontinuing the fil`flielt Inent duty ; 50,0001. by difcmitinuing the ten.days' exercile when permanent duty writ not reiptiretkand for difcontioning the marching guinea, He alto Rated other vet - Welton% that would take place, from reducing the pay of the drill-feiieanti from eighteen pence a day to 2s. 6d. per week ; as alto in the expence of the Field Offizers. Atter a few general oblervations, he moved his &ft Refolu firm, which was, That 150,529 men fh mid be voted for the regular army of the United' Kingdom, from the 24th ref Jonr. till the 24th of December. Upon the quellion being put nn the firlt Ref lotion, General TARLETON role, and exprefild his fentiments at confiderable length. In alluding to the plan of the Right Hon. the Secretary at War for ieffening the difference between the effeetive and nu merical forces of the kingdom, he declared that he thought the Right Hon. Gentleman was particularly liable to cenfure in his idea of the redueliop of the Cavalry, which appeared to the ga:lant Officer him felf to be, of all others, that which ought molt to be attended to by his Majesty's Miniltcrs, and which, in the prefent circumfiances of the country, he thought it was molt neccifary to increafe. A great deal of thi, fault he attributed to the circumstance of the Right Hon. Secretary having neglated to ark the opinion of the molt experienced Military Ofikefb on the fob jed. in the prefent tilt:a:l'm of the country he thought that this %%AS a falfe idea of ceconomy. In fact, he conceived his Majesty's Ministers to be a let of drones; as yet they had done nothing, in his opinion, but follow the Ileps of their predeceffors, except in one or two hillances, and thofe he could not approve of. Even the fervices of the gallant Officers who Fere concerned in the taking of the Cape had not al yet received the reward of thanks for fuch exertions,— The general tatdinefs of Minifters, he conceived, to be filch that it Was likely we fhould go into winter quarters before their fy item for general defence world be likely to be completed; or at all event. to have any att . :ye cite& 'Die Right Honourable Secretary (Mr. Windham) had, it was true, paid a vifit to the City, and there he had expreffed his mere cordial Sopro bation of the toall, The Volunteers of Great Bri tain ;" but afterv'ards he had coolled upon that fubjed, and in a f l ieech of fo much wit, humour, and vivacity, that it i4,uld have done honour to any one hot a Secretary of State upon Poch inipoi tint billings, declared his intention to reduce the Volun teer Ellebliffiment. With reipeCt to the abolition of the office of Infpetling Field Officer, he anted was not that a moll unwire mcafure, and whether emulation to a confiderable extent had not been ex cited among the corps by the very pretence of fuch experienced military men ? The reiitiquifhing of the prafti.:e of putting Volunteeis on permannt duty, he thought alto extremely liable in °bite - lion. In the difirift where he had the honour to command, of feveral bodies of men that certainly m.ide but a very aukivard appearance when they firm went out into the field, he allured the Houfe that before he parted from them in that fituation, before the fifteen days duty was expired, there was hardly a tingle corps that he would be afraid to go with into the field. The expence of keeping fo *lidol a body of men, lie thought,.was not worth looking at in a matter of Fitch importance. Mr. WHITBREAD obferved, that the Honour. I aide General had fpolcen of every thing almolt but the army estimate=. In dilcuffing fucb-4 fubjeet, was it at all neccifar y to endeavour to detrs from the meths of bit Noble Friend (Lord Howick) by an ungracious allulion to naval affairs t Was it at all neceffary, or becoming, to apply fuch an epithet at Drones to the whole of his Majefty's Ministers ? Af ter the g reat ability that had been difplayed that night by his Noble Friend (Lord -Henry Petty) ; after the laborious talk which he mum evidently have undertaken, and which be had fo far accomplilhed as to be able to Hate to the Houle, the difcovery of abufes to a molt amazing extent—abufes which had lain hid loch a number of years. Could it be thought credible, if any one was to inform us that a Member of Parliament had gravely declared in his place as a Member, that lie thought he was deferving of Inch an epithet as the Honourable General has thought fit to bring in to his affiflance t As to the circum ! fiance of a vilit to the City, and one of his Majesty's Minifters having approved of a loan given by a swir -1 thy Alderman , that was a matter which he conceiv ed to be of too trivial a nature to make the Jerre iut- pregion on the mind of any gallant officer, when the general defence of the country came to he (viten But then it was faid that the molt experienced tary men had not been confulted. On this point there doubtlefs might be a difference of opinion. and, though loch perfons u the Honourable Gael al had , in view hattnot been ranted to, the Right Hononr a )le Secretary of State might have inquired what were the fentimcnts of others who appeared to him to be fully as refoeaahle as thofe to whom the Gal Lint Officer ailitded. As to the alteration in the vo lunteer eflablilhmant, he haddon high an opinion of the good fence, as well as of the zeal and fpitit of this valuable bed) , of men, to Ilippofe that a finale corps would lay down their arms becaufe they were to be deprived of the June allowances, or that any officer almoft among toe whole of them could be In pettilh as to retign merely hecaufe he would not have a rank conferred on him to which neither his fervices nor his military experience could entitle him. On the other point, that of the infpeeting Officers, it was only neceffirry to obferve, that, hereaftet, Maj.ir Ge nerals would do the duty without the affiltance of the Brigadier Getieral,. Lord CASTLEREAGH flafed that lie lhould not have lifeo but with a view to obtain rime txpla• nation. The Houle was now placed in a molt extra ordinary flirt stion, in the view of the country, and of Europe. A great and fundamental change in our military fyllem was avowed, and yet fo full of that change were his Majely's Mini:lira, that, though they accepted of the offer of the late Minifters, and gave in an a imate for two montha, on the fame fcale as that of hall year; yet now that climates were to be voted fir the remainder of the year, there was uothing brought forward with a view to that great change of fy llem which was about to take place. No, the fame continued want of any determined plan was evident,. and the fame reluctance was (hewn as to the giving of any information. So wavering and unsettled were the minds of his Majefty's Mintllers, ;hasher they had accepted of the offer, and voted for the Erli two months animate, they went on to a tecond, and then to a tt ird, and.fo on tp the produc tion of the forirth tftiroate, without any develnpe ment of their plan. We had four estimates and four Mutiny Bilk, that is one by the late, and three by the prefent Minister. When the third climate of the new Government was brought forward, he did ex pert that there would have been fomething like a dif clofnre of the new plan, and a calculation made as to its probable effects. No; the only thing alma that was to he frets, was the reduaion of the cavalry, and in this he was warranted by the declaration of an Honourable and Gallant Officer (General Tarte ton), in (lacing to be a moll novelle and dangerous meafore. But it would feem to, every either nation :n huirope, that their" was filch a degree of dittrull and jcalonly between his Majetty's Miniliers . and Parlia ment, that the Legiflature would not confent to teed them avitla more than a fopply of a month or two at A 61111 ; that Parliament did not think it Isle to troll them with the Mutiny MI, or the power ofdifpoling of the army fora longer time than a month or two; that men and money, in a time of war, were (silly voted by the month. A great deal of paint., it was title, were taken, and much ittentiity was exerted, to try an sin away the impreffion of the Right Hun. Gentleman (Mr. Windham's) grand free!), which led u. to imagine that lie intended to .annihilate the Volunteers ; his Majelty's Mittillers were now endea vouring to avert the indignation of the country (a cry of hear, hear, hear!) they were endeavouring to avert the Indignation of the country, be putting it under a heavy expenditure for 300,000 men. A No ble Lord oppofite (Lord Howick) had brought for ward a Plan for an increafe of pay to the Navy, from the Admiral down to the common failor ; if the fame (Mem of expence was to pervade the army, and that they, from the General to the private, were alto to receive an addition to their pay (as might naturally be expeited to take place), a very confiderable addi tion would be made to the expences of the prefent ellimate, and the Noble Lord (Petty) would be un der the neceffity or Winging forward a Supplementary Ellimate. But, hefides theft confiderations, there were feveral others that preffed upon his mind ; of the Levy in Maffe Aft, particularly he noticed that not a word was laid. In fait, the piineinal objets of etpenee were pal Ted by, and his Majett y'sMinifters wer e In inert that, is the four months that they had been in Admiiiiilration, they had only brought in one Bill with two clatafes, and one of them (that which r elated to the fines) was lb deteflable in its nature, that it had been more to the credit of Minifters it the bill was compofed of only the other clank. lie really be lieved that Minifters were now trembling and puz zled, between the dangers attendant on the tituation of the country and the rafhtiefs of their own me:threes. As the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Windham) had declared, however, that he would change the military fyllem of the country at the prelent crifis, he tithed him, had he ventured to tell his colleagues ; had he yet, in fait, determined himfell; or, if any inform*. Lion was to be had from him, would he inform Par. I Lament in what form, or when the new fyllens was to be brought intosthat Houfe He trutled, that doe notice would be given of his intention, whenever the fyllem was to he brought forward. After the • i difitraee and ioominy which they had brought upon themfelves ; after the introduction of four arm ef • timates, and tour mutiny bills, within fu Stott a (pace of times after Minilters had brought Parliament into filch a fituation as that no Leginature, no Cistern ; ment in Europe was ever in before, he trotted, that I regular and timely notice of the introduainn of their change of fyitem would be given. He trulted that whether the outline of the plan was to be contained in the 'Mutiny Bill, or in whatever mode it was to be introduced, the whole would be brought forward at once, in order that nn Secretary of State could have aa opportunity of laying, you (hall only difeufs this now, or that another Rime, that it should not be laid that the alteration of the term was one thing, and the railing of the Levy in Mare another. He asked the Right Hon. Sseretary (Mr. Windham) whether, in point of fall, he had yet made up .his mind to any plan at all ? and concluded with °Winging that Parlia ment might be Paid to be in a tuna ludicrous flota tion after the palling of four Mutiny Bills, and the voting of four climates for expences of the army. Mr. WINDHAM fatd, the Noble L9rd had railed a very good Rile—his terms were throng, and well felefted tOr his put pole. Had there bee.' as mach found argument as there way coar le obtsfe, it wnnld have been oneofthe molt powerful harangues that ever WAS delivered in Parliament. There .sr. four Mutii.y Bills, and the Noble Lord iiirpored i irreo t.n ; eyes of all Eno , pc wel e upon u ., as if oho, a cicir mr .l ; tint of Mutiny Bill. indicated a g enera ! i:,lt Ifor very little noire ',rued Coatinental Lorry:- t'T . •*:r• fined of BMW' Bills. But the Riyla . , • • • Secretary at War talked of rednilions, and (listed the future expences. The gallant General censured this ceconomy, which the Noble Lord approved- He booed Mirillers were not to he deemed culpable, be. cattle they could not agree with b - oh—the door mutt be ether (hut or open. The Noble Lot d Paid, much dexterity had been tiled in mifreprefenting what he had laid, but then fuddenly varied his expreflion, and it was qualilying what he had faid. IVhich was th e moll cop e & lie would Dave the. Houle to de termine. Then, artif,,:e. had been employed to lower the tone of the declaraei m againa the V-olnntcers. IL• wit'hed Gentlemen would 1 over their tone, and not raite ft touch clamour. If they %%lodd prefer their indidment, he thoold know the extent of their ch•uge s either the fentiment, nr the language in which it was clothed, was objefsi.•nable. If they would do this ; he wculd either rerr,,El or confirm, either plead gt:iity or jollity ; but if t,.ey would not condefcend thui far, he mutt ►et the acculatidt] die away with the other calumnies of ihe day. With regard to the Volunteers, he had left them jail where he found them ; not in the expence, bin in refped to what would tend to difband them. A Learned Gen tleman (hewed fymprornsof aftonithment (Mr. Perci. vat) : he would, perhaps, hereafter tell what excited Iris furprife. It was laid that the drill ferjeants were reduced, and ferjeant majors were to be difcontinued; but all this was erroneous. It was true that 54,0001. was to be laved to the public purfe, and yet levels (billings was to be given every day of duty to the drill ferjeants, who were frequently tradefmen, not exclnfively devoting their lives in the military pro feffion. He did not think it right to inereafe the duty of the Volunteers, and thereby augment their efficiency at a great additional expence ; he thought it preferable that they thould tem.tin in their prelent hate of difcipline. By the reprefentation of the Noble Lord, it would appear as if it were the inten tion to harafs them; to impose new hurthens upon them, and to exhault their patience ; hut nothing of this kind could be the with of his hlajelly's Minifters. But the Noble Lord enquired what was the plan pro poled, and what progrefs was made in it ? The mea lnres were opened in $ ne general view, and the ado!). tion vtasfreiarim. This was all that could be'done, fur the latter mull depend upon time, place, and circuit]. (lance, and could only be progreflive. Then his Lordfhip Aced, in what fhape the matter was to be fabmitted to Parliament ? The prominent °Ned was limited fervice, and this was to be recognized in the Mutiny Bill, which was annual, and to be further fe. cored by a permanent Ad, which wouldalfocomprize the additional reward of the veteran for his continu ance in the fervice of his country. It was however definable that refiriCtions thould be fparingly impofed by legillative regulation; that the matter might be as much as pollible left open to the Executive Go. vernment, by whomfoever it might be ■dminillered. It was a fingular apptehenfion of the Noble Lord that a elastic on an important fubjed would be propufed in a Committee, fince the peculiar charader of a Com mittee was that the quetlions might be diicutTed with more facility and freedom. Betides the parliamen tary provifions jolt noticed, fome alteration in the Militia Laws would be neceffary. It had been Bated that he (Mr. Windham) propofed to abolith ballot s this was as incorred as the alrertions refpeding Vo lunteers. There was now a turpention of the ballot, and all his objet was to continue for the prefent this fufpenfi.•n. In addition to all this it would be expe dient to have Come Volunteer Aft ; and when that (hoold he propofed the Noble Lord would have ample opp •rtunity to dilate on his favourite topic. Mr. PERCEVAL explained the grounds upon which it was very generally and naturally fuppofed that the Right Honourable Gentleman', plan was a virtual annihilation of the Volunteer Syflem. When it was recolladed that it was Paid, a volunteer com pared to a foldier, was only " a painted cherry, which even a bird could hardly millake—a dry flick, which a child alone could exped to vegetate," peo ple could not be much condemned for luppofing the perfon who made fuch obfervations was not friendly to the volunteers. WAS it to be wondered at, then, that feri ms apprehenfions were entertained as to the project of the Right Honourable Gentleman, particu larly when a prominent feature of that project was to 1 .. remit" the difcipline of that body. According to his opinion, if it were meant to maintain the volun teers at all, their difcipline ought not to be remitted, but preferred fo as to render them an effi:ieut body ; : and it it were not wished to render them efficient, it would, in his judgment, be much better to chtband them altogether. He law no good in keeping up the volunteers upon the terms described by the Right Hon. Gentleman. I Mr. FOX remarked upon the mifreprefentation fo I indnflrioutly circulated with regard to the fentirnents of his Right Honourable Friend. An acute author_ had übferved, that men fometimes contrived to con vey faifehood in the words of truth. S o man y per . I lons upon this fubjeet, profeffing a regard for the Volunteers and a zeal for the country, which, no I doubt, they kit, had grofsly mifreprefented the views of his Right Hon. Friend. Indeed, he knew, that much mikonception prevailed upon this point. He had had a correlpondenee refitetling it. A Gen tleman in the country, with whom he had feareely had any perfonal acquaintance, had lately stoma to him, Hating, that he undertlood his Right Honour able Friend (Mr. Windham) had laid tbe Volunteers were of no Me whatever. " Now," oblerved this Cortefpondent, as if hir had net at all read the plan of my Right Hon. Friend, " I can affitre you and your friend, that if permanent duty were done away, the infpeSing officers removed, and the June allowances withdrawn, the Volunteer s would do well and become a Te , y ufeful body" (a laugh). This, added Mr. For, ferved to thew the ntilconceptions which bad ens abroad. But thous milconceptions would be loon done away, and when they fhould, he had not the leaß doubt the general imprraion would be that of his own mind at prefent, that his Right Hon. Friend was I the bett qualified man in the country for the arrange. mei.: if tubjeds of this nature. NutsrithßAnding the I . lllpicion expreired by the Right Hoe. Gl:whined who hod lilt Ipoken, that were could be any difficulty in tind.mg out the roinis of the Noble Lord (Cafile. re 'WO, ~s his /perch W. 4, 67 full—he thought that dif. ~,,r ail Jo nwihing. Th:re was a vulgar irt el. relative “ to finding a needle in a bundle of n,,)" (a ). The Right Hnnon t Able Secretary es. ire.l his wiln, that thelir.t raft of his Right Ho. 1..0.-ac Friend's plan rboul.l be brought forward at loon as pogible. Will: that view, be &void hops .Qr. r i• ,A