Star. — London, England, 1826-02-15 00:00:00

RE' • \ • • , . ..- \ . yeIirELLICE said, in 1814, and the following hen we had most exports, and consequently a mat index of gold, it was then more than at any othet 4seriod its oar power to return to the old syttem: • It would - be said that we made large exports last year; bet the question : *as, how had they been paid for, or were they vid for at all? When gold encumbered the Bank warehouSe, it became so cheap, that it was disposei of in Austrian, Mexican, Chilian, and other foreign Loans. What grow should be cur late if a foreign sia:ion mould take advantage of this want of preparation, which our imprudence had .caused, to attack us in war ? He reprobated the idea of taking Scotch Banks as o model for English met: The former, he said, were constituted on a bad principle. He would recommend any legislative measures , which might be adopted, to extend to Scotland, that Scotch notes might not supersede a metallic currency in the North of Eng land. As to the measures of free trade, he maintained that they could not subsist in the present fluctuations. All ideas of the sort weie absolutely chimerical, until briad coals! be eaten its England at as cheap a rate as in other countries. Let a free tradetake place-in commo dities, and he would warrant that tbeCorn Laws would repeal themselves soon enough. He felt disposed to vote for the measur:e, because it,- pre Unto, was a repeal of those laws which were a disgrace to the Legislature, , especially-whilst we talked of the necessity of establish ing a free trade. There was something rxtramdinary in our situation as a nation, for though all other coun tries had in turn been bankrupt and would be so again, yet we in a period, eleven years subsequent to the con clusion of peace, saw the price of our principal Stock fall from 97 t 074 per cent. within a few months. Under all these circumstances, he must entreat he House to co-operate with hint in supporting the motion, emanate step towards putting our credit and currency on a more safe and less variable foundation. Mr. T. WILSON said, that the object of his rising was not to answer the Hon. Member who had just sat down, nor to oppose the measure before the House; but to state that what he had said on theprevioux night bad been in the cootie of the day confirmed, by the fall which had taken place in the funds, and the failures .which had been talked of as likely to take place, and 'iebich, if true, would be distressing to an extent beyond what could he imagined. He would therefore take the liberty of asking the Right Hon. Gentleman (the Chan cellor of the Exchequer) if in persevering in the mea sure before the House, his Majesty's Ministers were prepared to say whether any rnea‘ures were in contem plation for the relief of the mercantile distresses of the kingdom. It should be remembered that the mercantile bodies, however wild and visionary might have been their • schemes and their speculations, had yet been led to em .hark in them by the low rate to which the value of money bad been reduced by the measures of Government ; and it should also be biotic in mind that they had a right to dispose their own property as it best please.! them selves. He believed that Ministers under these cot eamstaocies would hardly turn round upon the traders of a country which was purely commercial, and tell them that they were fools and blockheads not to have foreseen the impending evil, and husbanded their re urces to meet it. He came ;bee to the House on the . itehalf of the merchants of the City of London, and of -Amber ports in the kingdonsiclaituing relief at the hands s lit the Goverment. He had always been prowl of sup pelting his Majesty's Ministers, because he thought they were good pilots, anti weathered many storms; . bet he mach *eared that the vessel in which they were . maw about . to embark must be inevitably lost. The cotton merchants had been particulary uafortunate, they had bought goods at 12d. per lb. which were now only wroth 6.1. because a market was not to be found for the quantities upon hand. In the year 1793 Government had a precedent fur acceding to the wishes of the mer chants of the peseta day. At that time Gout unseat had authot ised the advance of fifty per cent. upon the security of the go)ds, and a similar indulgence was sought in the present instauce—au advance upon no questionable security, but upon stolid prupotty. To this request be trusted the Riflit *Jun. Gentlettnin would give a reply. the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER —ln respect to what has fallen from the lion. Member who spoke last, who whilst he takes credit fur supporting Ministers in their measures in what he calls " fair weather;' yet thinks, because he alleges distress has been produced in consequence of these same measures, that we are unable to encounter the storm in foul seedier," I must take leave to say those who supported us on those occasioas are responsible equally with our selves, and I think it rather bard of him or others who aid :o support our measures to turn round, when they %oppose foul weather has set in, and reproach us with having produced the alleged distress. Whether we ne fit to wen her the storm or tea, it is not for me to say. But this I will take eredit for Ministers, so far as to say, we have endeavoured to profit by passing events, that we have endeavoured to learn something from experience, and that the measures now recoiled to by us result from that experience, and I have no hesitation whatever in avowing, notwithstanding the taunts of Hon. Members with respect to our motives, that I am now ten thousand times snore convinced of Use pops- ety ef the measures adopted-by us in conse quence 1:f the sate of things that has occurred.— question put to me by the llonMember I can have no po.s Lle (election to answei, and I suppose what he means is, that Government should follow the course adopted for the relief of commercial distress in 179 d, by advancing money on goods deposited with them as o• cut ity fort epAy :pent of their issues upon such pteperty. Isiow, Sir, a Government in cases of this kind is placed in a state of the greatest chtliculty—it is placed in a, 111/OSt unfavourable point of view—it is surrounded on all sides by scenes of distress; by representations of distress ; the colouring of which is not softened down, and, to every pat ticular case of distress, we are told it is our duty to afford relief. But if thus called on, we 'endue to look beyond that period of distress as operat ing then, or as it may in future operate on the country., I don't coniplain of the difficulties and unpleasantness of such a sittiaticn, for I acknowledge it is our duty to afford every relief that is practicable. But it is also our dose not to look so much to the effect of the particular cast- 111 which our assistance is asked, as what may be its consequences to the whole comniutlity; and if we find a compliance will be snore piejudicial on the whole, it is the first duty of Government not to let its feelings get the better of its judgment, and endeavour to restrain those feebugs, which, if gratified, would be attended with ruinous consequences. L .oking to the ppoposition made by the Hunourable Member, I must tell him, the subj cc has had the most serious attention of Govern- Meat, and 1 have no hesitation in saying, that no 1114 it• ter with what care such a measure would be attended to, much mischief would arise from such a nneassue. The Honourable Member refers to the state of distress prevdding in this country in 1793. I must my, ilk 'cirenmstaneet of the present time ate totally dlfertot. , The embarrassaltents and diffkolties of the country were at that time produced by its. Political random abroad, and its internal diasensions at home, or, at least, by the dangers that wete apprehended from them. •Tbe distresses of that period were not marked by a peculiar character, which might have rendered the establish: mint of a perpetual precedent with respect to the ad vances upon the part of Parliament a matter of necessity. The na ure of the present distress was caused by the spirit of over trade, which led pers. ns to become the purchasers of goods at enormously high prices, which it was utterly impossible could be met by a correspond ing profit. If in this particular instance the House followed the course proposed, would it not lead to a recurrence of that to which I allude ? Would not this, by parity of reasoning, lead to consequences precisely the same? If we adopt the process which is recom mended to us, and make a legislative enactment to that effect, should we not, as a prudent Government, consi der whether we may not be causing a recurrence of that enormous fluctuation in our currency, of which we complain. It the proposed measure were acted upon, would it not be in the power of any man influenced by An immoderate love of gain to s iy, " True—the plans which I propose are wild and good for nothing; the eredit which I am establishing is mere waste paper, but still I have resources in the state of affairs in the feelings of Government, and the precedent established by Parliament; I du not, therefore, care what may be the result of my speculations."--I do not (continued the Right Honourable Gentleman) make any part cular or individaal application, but I am decidedly of opinion that a compliance with the proposition of the Honour. able Gentleman would be attended with consequences more injurious and more prejudicial to the interests of the country, than would be compensated .by any tem porary relief which it might possibly afford. In this state of things, his Majesty's Ministers are therefore bound to refuse. their assent to the proposition. It, indeed, they would afford relief to the present state of the money market, caused by the temporary absorption of that species of security, called Exchequer Bills, the 1 - interest of which species of security was never so low as at present—if this could, by assurances on the part of the Bank, be removed—if it could be assumed that the Bank would fi nd a remedy for the temporary absorb lion of these securities, and if in consequence it would be assumed, that 'money would find its way through the ordinary channeli to all classes who wantit.— If by such a proceeding some remedy (for it is nonsense to speak of effecting great things with small means), though not a complete oee be effected, if by such a course some relief be obtained, the Guvernment will deem it to be its duty to apply to Parliament during the present Session for the purpose of repaying the Ban k those advances which it might. have made upon the purchase of Exchequer Bills. I do not precisely under stand what the expression of feeling upon the part of the mercantile interests of the City of London is with regard to the measure adopted by his Majesty's Government. I believe it to be unfavour able. I belicve it is not the wish of that body to acquiesce tacitly and quietly in that measure, the consideration ut which has been submitted to the House. If the effect of this measure have been to deprive his Majesty's Ministers of the confidence of that body to which I have alluded, I regret, I lament it ; but I will nut consent to purchase the et atinuance of tbCir confidence by adopting a measure of which I do not approve. Mr. T. WILSON explained.—When he spoke of his confidence being lessened in Ministers, he was not speaking of his confidence iu the prudence of their general policy, but of his conftdruce in their wisdom as to this particular measure. 1 1 41 r. ROBERTSON was astonishei at hearing that the recurrence to cash payments would afford the pet; lic hut little relief. He had been led to believe that it would have totally. .released us (torn that distress in which the country was plunged. A great portion of this distress was owing to the withdrawing of ihe ii at ing capital of the country; this, according to the calcu , !Astons of Mr. Colquhoun, was 430,000,000, when wheat w a. as high as SOa. or 40s. He (Mr. R.) would, at a later period, take from this the one-fourth ; this would leavta capital of 330,000,000. if such a Sum since the peace, necessary to the activity and welfare of society, how was its bus'ness to be carried on when 256,000,000 had lett the country, and we had a floating capital of 70,000,000 instead of 330,000,000? With auch a diminution the interests of the community could not be worked. It was imperative upon Ministers to give their assistance, for when, upon the commencement of the speculations in the coun try, many,allembers of that House called upon them to arrest the progress of the Joint Stuck Companies, which were then illegal, they temained intent, and by the repeal of the nubble Act made them legal; neither did they give their support to the Lord Chancellor when he declared those associations to be contrary to law. Sir H. PARNELL expressed his full conviction - that until the exclusive privilege of the Batik of England in the City of London w as modified and curtailed, these dangerous and eatraordinai y fluctuations in the currency and capital of individuals would constantly be recurring from rime to time. As to the proposal for introducing a mixed silver and gold standard, he hoped it would not, if adopted, be suffered to interfere with the late wise M.nt regulations, for if it did, it would create more evil than it could do good. Mr. Alderman BRYDGEs attributed much of our embarrassments to the increasing necessity of making remittances to lore gn countries, as well as to the with drawing of so large a sum of mohey as was mecessary to pay up instalments to Russian and Scrota American 'Loans. He leAted, unless Government issued Excite quer hills in the same stay as it had done in 1793, for the relief of the merchants, a total stagnation would take place in all trade, which would not only alarm ' Monism s, kit completely cripple our trade, anti cut up our resources as a commercial country. Alderman HEYGATE said, that he felt perfectly convinced that the Administration did not, upon this measure, speak the sentiments of the great body of the nobility and gentry that were in the habit of supporting them. It appeared lu him that the general sentiments of all classes were, that the Ministers were indifferent to the sufferings of the people, and that they were sacrificing the country to a cold-blooded theory. Excepting a few persons, who might be called the Political Economists' Club, nobody approved of the measures of the Ministers. The country was evidently on the eve of a great convulsion, and its situation was 'truly swim's. He knew that a great number of the Members who supported Ministers in this ,treasure were, secretly, of very different opinions. Notwithstanding the vast majority of Ministers, they received no ap plause; oo cheers were given to their speeches; their support was derived chiefly from those woo, upon prin. civic and general system, were their most bitter oppo nents. He defied the Administration to carry their present measures through; they would be obliged to recoil, even at the ill themselves bad done, and they would be compelled at last to shew some sympathy for the sufferings of the people. It was only for want of a proper circulating medium that the-Exchequer Bills could now hardly be sold; they were now at 20 dis count. flee Government Securities could not be sold it all; lad something overt to be dime to abet sitets a ante of skate: Rs was no wont of evil, but he could foretel timid& could come to ao good. Mr. HUME wished that when the worthy Alderman was abusing the system of political economy, he had pointed out what particular part of the system he ob. ' jected to. - If the worthy Alderman alluded to the mea sures adopted by Ministers with respect to free trade, he could by no means agree with him. Those measures h id, he believed, met with the general approbation, not only of Parliament, but of the country. He could not suppose the country would shew such a want oflood sense as to turn round at the present moment and find fault with the operation of those measures. With re spect to the present measures of Government, he thought that they were ill-timed ; hut Min sters were placed in a situation of great difficulty; and it was hard to say what ought to be done. The Honourable Al derman asked why the Government did not i,sue Ex chequer bills? Now, he must know that the" Exchequer bills already in circulation were at a discount, and if the amount were augmented the depieciation would be proportionately increased. The result might be that the revenue would be collected in Government paper, and Ministers would thus be lett without means. He should be sorry that the transactions of the Government should incur the risk of being interrupted by issue of Exchequer Bills. He was sure that the Bank would afro, d all the assistance in their power. They would not suffer the public securities to remain to a state of depreciation it they could help: it. It was hard upon Ministers, in their present difficulties, that they should be taunted on the score of their liberal system of commercial policy, by persons who bad no projects of their own to suggest. The attacks *Weft had been made upon political economy were not such as he ex pected to proceed arum his aide of the House. Mr. Alderman WOOD was afraid that the obser vations of his worthy. brother Alderman about the want of cheering, would not have much weight with the Cabinet ; for if Ministers did not get m my cheers, they got what they liked much better, a vast majority —(A lau i th). Although the present state of affairs was certainly very distressing, it was better to let matters go on without any legislative interference. An issue of Exchequer Bills, under present circumstances, would, he thought, produce no benefit. The Worthy Alder man must have known, before he left the City that afternoon, that two great houses intimately counected with foreign loans had failed. Foreign Stock, too, had fallen very low indeed. Under these circumstances, an issue of Exchequer Bills, though it might allot d some relief, could oily do so at a loss rat from thirty to forty per. cent. The Worthy Alder man concluded by rei terating his opinion of the inutility of adopting any Parliamentary measures at the present moment. Mr. Alderman HEYGATE, in answer to what had fallen from the Hon. Member for Aberdeen, besged to state that he objected to the principles of free trade being applied to this country, which, on account of its burden of taxation, could never compete with its foreign rivals. Mr. Arrwoou contended that the Bank were bound, at the peseta moment, to carry into the market , all Exchequer Bills and other Government securities in their possession, and sell them at whatever price they would br;ng, and with the produce to afford assistance to merchants, by discounting their bills, or lending them money on security. That was a proceedaig per fectly consistent with political economy. Merchants had a right, in a commercial point of view, to call upon the Bank for relief in their distresses. Mr. PEiItSE said, that the lank, within the last six weeks, had administered relief to the extent of their means, to those whom they could with propriety ac commodate. Ti.e Bank Directors were perfectly willing to discoont_merchants' bills, whets the eireumsrances..of the case were such as impelionsly called on them to do fo, and wh en they could do so consistently with their own security ; but it would be unbecoming of them to go farther. The tendency of all the measures which had been lately pursued by the Rank was to put the country under infinite obligations to them. These mea sures might possibly not be sufficient to meet the exigen- ' cies of the times, but they were dictated by thl best feelings for the country. With respect to merchants' bills. and• to the relief to be afforded to merchants, he had only to observe, that they stemed to think they might receive that relief in the best manner, according to the plan on which it had formerly been afforded them. He agreed with the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that, only in extreme cases, relief should be afforded, and that it Was not to be granted for the purpose of en couraging speculations. One and all of the mer• chants of this country were now in a state of em batrasinient for the wane of money ; and the question Was, how tlley were to be relieved? He knew that, on this day communications had taken place between the Government and the Directors, the issue of which he could not one, state, but he knew that there had been the most anxious communications as to the memo: es that should he adopted, for the purpose of affording immediate relief in the most beneficial man-- He recsminiended the sale of bills at the highest rate of 'limiest ; first, because he thought it would en ible many men, now, embarrassed for want of ready money, to discharge their debts immediately ; and, 2Jly, because be thought it would have the effect of bringing into the market N great deal of that money which he knew was now put by in the chests of indi viduals. He knew that money was put by in this manner even by bankers themselves, not only to meet their own oligencies, but because they did not like to lay out their money in Government Exchequer Bills, because their interest was tow, acid becime their value was not fixed. If Commissioners Were authorised to issue Exchequer Bills of the description he had mentioned, to the amtfunt 0f5,000,0..01. the measure would have the effect of restor ing confidence throughout the country. So effectually, ia deed, did he think the measure would tend to the resto ration of confidence in pecuniary 4ransaetions, that he was of opi nion the Conuctissiefefi would not find it necessary to issue more than half the amount of Bills placed at their disposal, and that half never would find its way into the Bank, but would be taken up by parties who now kept their money locked up. In what he said, he begged to be understood, as only expressing his own individual opinion. Mr. W. SMITH differed from all the measures which he had heard proposed. Hr did not think that because a man was unfortunate in his speculations in cotton, or any other article of that description entered into for his own private benefit, he was peculiarly entitled to the assistance of Government to retrieve his losses; neither did he think the Bank of England bound to sacrifice by the sale of Government secutities, a great portion of its capital for the relief of persons who were unfortunate in speculations. He thought that substantial relief would be afforded by Ciovernment making advances upon goods which could not at present be converted into money. lie thought nothing could be store fallacious than the doctrine of the Chancellor of the Eacbcquer, that such relief would be an encouragement to speculation, as if any man would engage in speculation merely be cause a hope was held out that some relief would be aforded bins when his capital should be reduced 75 per cent. Mr. HUSKISSON—As the debate has hitherto been confined to that portion of the House which considers itself as purely practical in those matters, I shall nu follow the example set by the Hon. Member for Co toothy, an travel out of the tholetieal fine, it shall jest attempt to recall the attention of the House to put situation, according to the views or those pfactital authorities who hay e ad ire:sect themielves to the piti: posed plaits for telief. The Hoi. MeMber fair the Citf of London (Mr. Wilson) has asked my Right Hod! Friend, the Chancellor of the Excheqper, whether ) od the part of his Majesty's Government - there was any id: tention of issuing an additional quantity of Exchequer Bills, in order to afford relief to the distress sihith no* exists among a class of person! who- are the holders of goods which, from the present state of the market, ale not convertible into money, arid that Hun. Member, in putting the questioa, gave it as his opinion, that such au addeional issue of Exchequer Bills could be .the most efficacious, indeed, the only method of relief. Tire Hon° rrable Member for Callington (Mr. Attwoodo who is also looked up to as a practical authority, has; without proposing any question, given it as opinion that the only means of relieving the distress is this, that in stead of the Government issuing Exchequer Bills, ii,e Batik of England should p•oceed to sell a!l other secutitier which they now hold from Ole Government. As I kn iw u' other ' result n heti such a proceeding (mild produce, s rce t t to al , aw into the coffers of the 13.t-:k a; roe... a val.:tie of the notes in circulati on as if ti,ey we. e to o -it bullion, or anything else, the consequence wou:d be diametrically opposite to that an icipat ol by the Son. Member for Callington. It would lessen the amount of Bank notes in circulation to the extent of the securities thrown into the meeker. Whit the other consequences would be—what effects such, a proceeding would produce upon the price. of the public securities of the country, to the Bankers in general, ettri to the other great interests connected with the circulation of the country, need not be printed out; bur' think, that if his Majesty's Ministers age to blame for not coalescing with the Bank of England, to devise :ome immediate and effi cient plan, the difference btweets the measures propo.esi for relief by those who attribute blame to the Govern ment, clearly shews the difficulty which they would rience in agreeing to adapt specifio measures of relief, if they were placed in responsible situations, for Irons the same theory they draw conclusions sliametrically oppo site. The view which I take of"the present situation of the commercial community, which I an ready , to admit is one of great distress, aggravate.l by unfortunate events, which takes place deity, and is this day aggra vatedbyan occurrence I have heard anti ded to since I en tered this House, I shall state very .shottly. If there was no difficulty in procuring Bills of Eschang,-, w aces are the ordinary and natural means of c pryingA on com mercial transactioi:s, those bills would pass from hand to hand, and the Bank was ready to afford every faci lity for discounting Bills of Exchange, to what extent I will not say, but certainly to an extent sufficient to carry on the ordinary and usual commercial trans actions; but at the present moment, such is the dis trnst, such is the want of confidence between man and man, that Bills of Exchange cannot be created, and, therefore, the commercial woad has not the intervenieg means of procuring from the Bank the quantity of money necessary for carrying on the business of commerce. 'l'hat there is a much greater quantity of circulatrng medium necessary to perform the ordinary operations of commerce is obvious to every one ; and the question is, how are we to supply the deficiency? Tile Hon. Member for Callington says, I see no difficulty in the Bank of England making advances upon goods, but then, says that Honaurahle firnrbsaan . that ivaishl ....w ar y to the principks of political economy. Mr. ATTWOOD said he had not exactly said What had been imputed to Wm. _ Mr..HUSKISSON—I am sorry that I have miiiii derstood the Hon. Member. I shall not, theretare, assume that he has said so, but I certainly so under stood his argument. Some Honourable Member has said, that the Government might not to alliance money upon goods to the Bank of England, as it would be contrary to the principles of political economy. tell the Honourable Member that such a proceeding by the B ink of England would be contrary to their charter, and to the law under which that body exists. The Bank of England is not by law permitted to deal in goods, or to lend money on goods. The question then is, what can be done to procure a more abundant supply of circulation ? for that is the whole question to be considered, let us discuss it as long as we please. It in the opinions expressed by practical merchants, and in the reports of the Bank Committee in 1819, there be any fact more than another, on which all agreed, it was this, that it there is a sufficient quantity of Bank notes to meet the exigencies of the country—to meet the de mands of commerce—it was immaterial whether that supply was of one description of security or another. fiat is the proposition whi h I maintain, and which is the foundation given by my Right Hon. Friend to the question proposed by the Honourable Member. The Gentleman who spoke last has animadverted upon my Right Honourable Friend (the Chancellor of the Et chequer), whom he has chargtoi with saying, that hit Majesty'. Government would not interfere oy agord ing relief, lest they should establish a precedent ler parties who happen to be unfortunate in specul.tions, and that it would be ao encouragement to persons :0 speculate. My Right Hon. Friend did not state it 'II that way. lie said, not that in consequence of any re lief on the part of Government, a man would Specu:ate, with the Moral certainty that he should be unfortunate, but that men would be more ready to enter into specu• latiuns, if, in the event of each loss, they should have such description of relief afforded them. The argument of my Right Hon. Friend is, that the precedent cat distress would be applicable to all times and all occa sions, and so it would, for every man feels his own distress, and thinks it greater than that of any other man, and we should, if we once established the pre. cedent, have the argument of peculiarity urged in every case. For my part I would say, let us not meddle with the trade of the country in that way. If sanguine spe culators chose to embark in rash speculations, such as those in which many have engaged during the last twelve months, and should not get out of them in time for that is the grand object of such speculayr , ), we:c to have it held out to them, that in case of .1 loss they had an asylum in the Government, I say, that it would afford as great encouragement to improvideut specu lators as the Poor Laws often do to those who otherwise would have the means of placing themselves in a 'Awe of comparative indeperience, I again say, that tile . proper remedy, in my opinion, is this—if the Bank o! Cogtand is at liberty (and I know it has the means to wsnr extent of affording relief) to issue with safety a paruity of paper in the purchase of securities, ad , rirderstnnding having Liked place between the Flit Lord of the Treasury and the B ink, that those securities row taken out of tire market as the most efficacion. node of adding to the circulation, will, in due and ~,roper time, so as not to embarrass the state of 04 'PR ■ 1 .1 • '.. 4 a U. ci R ab 7 in wi L we ad 7 ',hi Sh 11 e 'A. 3 • eve