Star. — London, England, 1812-02-01 00:00:00

r'r'• ~.:. ' • ' pos, R 17 _s7ll PARLIAMENT:ART PROCEEDINGS. HOWIE OF COMMONS.—JAN. SI. 01. THORNTON obtained leave to bring in a Bill for ex_ the powers of the Act for erecting a Bridge over the floes, near Vauxhall. Aow Writ was ordered for the town of Derby, in the r oom JA ,Hcas. William Cavi mli-h, deceased. 'i t. Ric/WAN presented a Report from t he i Cornnaissioners acted to enquire into the ounces of the House of Commons. wed to l i e on the table on the motion of Mr. KENRICK, leave was given to bring in IP ...W make a provision for the Oaks in Chancery, after a cer- .g WM 0, osservi..e. 5 MELLISH presented a petitition from several Licensed . praying that they might be allowed to give evidence t he Police Cotrunittee, of certa n grievances under which life , 1 „, labottr.—R , (eyed to the Committee on ate Police. — i n n t l kOLKSIONB.rest - nted a petition from certain per oggoued in the Jails of Winch, stet, praying for relief, by an is ombf the lair Act for the relief of Insolvent Debtors. • The Insolvent Debtors and the I.ords' ACt Amendment Bills pr od a second time, and committed for Monday. nie t wee Regent'. Lxpences kid; after a few ot serrations kas Sir T.. 1 URTON, AV ent through a Committee, the Report &ids was ordered to be received on Monday. u t M. A. TAYLOR gave notice, that on Friday, Fcbreary itheiroutd move the rev.val of the Committee appointed ha soot to enquire into the delays of Cases in Chancery, and of Appals in the House of Lords. Os the third reading of the King's Household Officers Bill, Mr. ONNETT proposed a new clause which was rejected, and the IA outfit's read a third time and passed. BANKRUPT MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT. , Mr. LOCKHART rose to call the attention of the House to the consideration of this question, whether any, and what Members of that Honour able House had a right to sit and vote there, after .after they had been regularly declared bankrupts ? lathe time of Edward I. a proclamation had been 4 issued, directing Sheriffs not to return persons who were bankrupts as Members of Parliament. That proclamation, however, had not been properly atten ded to, and therefore that did not go to disqualify per sons so situated from sitting in Parliament. The dis qualification, if any existed on that ground in law, arose from the circumstance of the parties so situated, rot retaining that qualification which Was required bylaw to sic and vote in that H ruse. Now he con ceiied that the law not only required that a Member of Parliament should have that qualification at the time of hit election, but that he should retain it so 1 hag IS he retained his seat. It would be but a moc kery if the law required such a qualification in the first instance, and afterwards dispensed with it, so that a person could be invested with it for' one day, and though he lost it for ever on the next, continue a Member of that House. He did not presume to say that an inquisitorial power should be given to look into the qualification of a Member at any time, but he thought it might be right, when it was notorious that such qualification had been publicly taken away by the operation of the law s that a Member should no longer retain his seat. Such a regulation, how. cm, he did not say daddies emended to the whol• House of Commons. The Scbts Members, and the eldest sons of Earls, he moved as exceptions. The Hon. Member then t cited various statutes on the sub ject of the qualifications of Members of Parliament, and tonrluded his speech by moving—" That a Committee be appointed to inquire if any and what persons being Members of this House, and becoming bankrupts, are capable of sitting and• voting therein?" Sir C. PRICE seconded the motion. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER observed, it was clear, from the Hon. Gentleman's own argument, th .t at present the House could not come to a resolu:ion that bankrupts were excluded from sitting there by any existing law. If it could at all be contended that a bankrupt was by law in capablE of sitting there, it was only by an inference that his qualification was affected by his bankruptcy, bat 41, as persons had seats in that House, who had »oqutlificatiortby property, their qualifications could notbe affected by bankruptcy, and therefore by law it could not be maintained that bankrupts were ex cluded from Parliament. It was another question, whether or not there might be reason for m.tking a law to etclude bankrupts from sitting there ; but as the kw at present stood, they c?uld not by any means be excluded. A Member of Parliament might become a bankrupt after the close of a Session of Par- Lwow, and might get his certificate signed by the tractile next Session commenced, and gala new pro perty to qualify him to hold his seat, and w as he then to be dispossessed of it on such grounds ? In cases rif fiiud, any one could move the expulsion of a Mem (mthat ground. A Member of that House might lose his property atter one Session, and ret, by the death of his father or relation, or by some other cir earostance, he might by the next Session be a richer taw than he had ever been before. A person might he a bankrupt, without being insolvent, and insolvent without being a bankrupt ; so that the mere circum- 'Awe of his being made a bankrupt was not of itself to disqualify a man from holding a seat in 114 •He ohjected to the motion before the Heise, which was for appointing a Committee to in 'quire if any, and what persons were capable of sit ting and voting there after being made bankrupts, or in Other words (he was sure his Honourable Friend would know he meant nothing disrespectful) the motion was for the appointment of a Committee to lid an Act of Parliament. This he thought unne 4ttsarPs as he could not see that this House could tatl!rtan any doubt of wlrat the law was on that sub ject. • If any doubt existed, it might be proper to !Point a Committee to search the Journals ; but, on e present occasion, he cculd see no necessity to "Point the Committee proposed. Whether or not l i t alight be e x p e di ent to b r i ng i n a B i ll to a l ter t h e 4 , 4 w.s was quit e anot h er quest i on, on w hi c h at present acp . adno dispo s i t i on t pronounce an op i n i on . l'Ir• A. BARING opposed the motion as being ill bared. Sir C. PRICE spoke in favJur of appointing a - romittee. Sir F. BURDETT thought some inquiry of the Lure proposed extremely desirable at the present 4 7. B tLy wtre to permit Members to it in tiat dr • • • :, 444. C -4 7 1 5) . ,•x-S 1 17 , - • o (5 ) ) taro. IrP 4 lak SATURDAY, FEBRUARY' 1, 1312. House who were not qualified to hold seat there on'• fired without cause, ought to be made some amends account of the pressure of the times, they might as for what they had endured. This had not been done. I well at once write up in the words of the Poet over These poor men had been called upon to criminate ) their door— themselves, and this was not thought wrong—but " Broken and Bankrupt fortunes mended here." when public peculators, Police Magistrates, and per- He complained of the privileges of Parliament, which ,sons holding situations of some authority wer e called enabled its Mtmbers to evade the payment of their I upon to give an account of themselves, they w ere to ! just debts, and in particular, alluded to the case of be told in that House, that such enquiries should not ' a Member who had availed himself of the privileges be Made, lest the answers of the :parties concerned of that House, without any intention of ever setting should go to criminate themselves. This, how ever , his foot in it, to cheat his creditors of £30,000, an be was sure of, that every Qui Tons could give the i n - fly the country. He concluded, stating it to be his formation he (sir Francis Burdett) called for, wh en intention to vote for the motion. he pleased ; and, therefore, he only asked that for the I After a few words from Mr. BARING, Mr. BRAND, House'which any common informer could get. The and Sir JOHN NEWPORT, Mr. LOCKHART replied.— Police Magistrates might many of them have been qua- I lifted to liolir situations when they first received The question was then put, and the motion negatived without a division. - them; but Walk which qualified them had since been I STATE OF THE POLICE. lost, or sold, or otherwise dispos e d of, th e y o ug h t not , Sir FRANCIS BURDET'r rose in consequence in his opinion, to be allowed longer to retain thei r s i- ' of the House having rescinded a part of the Order Mations, as they might be made the mere tools of the which it had made on a former evening, on the mo- Ministers of the-day, as far as the powers with which tion of the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. they were invested would go. In consequence of the Ryder) e he was sorry he had not received the note the increase'of crimes, there.laad appeared a disposi e ei of the Right Hon. Gentleman earlier than he did, to tion in the House to do something for the better ; ; re which he would at least have returned an answer. it gulation of the Police. He thought it impo r t a nt t o had not reached him in time to enable him to do so that end, that every information that could be give n I _ should be affo r ded to the House, and he should there.. before the subject was brought forward, in conse fore move, that the part of the order which had been quence of his having been, detained in the country by rescinded should be reinstated. Ile accordingly moved very important business. He thought it exceedingly improper to rescind that part of the order which had " That accounts he laid before the House of the quali- fications of the Poli c e Magistrates, specifying what! been rescinded on the motion of the Right Hon. Gen tleman. His object in moving for the qualifications of they are, what they were, and where." those who had been appointed Magistrates, was to Mr. RYDER stated the ground of the Motion which he had'made to be this : the Motion of the Ho shew that persons had been improperly appointed. Incurab!e Baronet bed required that the Magistrates He considered it as a matter of importance that the should be called upon to spew what their qualifica the law which had been passed on the subject, in the House should know if Ministers had paid attention to [ions were, wha". they now are, and where. This he appointments they had made. The law set forth, I objected to, because the Act required that no Magis that as Magistrates of counties were entrusted with trate should sit without having a qualification, which qualification should be registered. To that part of great powers,' it was expedient to make such regula the order which requirel what the qualification was, lions as might keep persons in mean situations from holding such offices. It was therefore enacted, in he had no objection ; but to that which called fo r in the time of George the Second, " That no person i formation as to what the qualification now is, and where, he objected, as it could only be obtained from should act as a Magistrate, who was not possessed of the Magistrates themselves. How did the case stand ? property to the amount of £lOO per annum in the county in which he was to administer justice." Thi s Why, by 18th Geo. 11. nu Magistrate could sit with waso intended to prevent Magistrates becoming the out a qualification ; and whoever did so was liable tools of Government, as he had often seen them prove to pay for every act of Magistracy the sum of one themselves of late. At that time £lOO was a very hundred pounds. The order called for would there con4derable sum, and such an aunts il income was fore require of the Magistrates to declare whether or thought a tolerable independence, the possessor of not they had dose that which if done would subject which was not expected to be the tool of Government, them to a heavy penalty. It called on the Magis trates to convict themselves if they had acted with at least it was thought he could not be such from necessity. Justice at that time, he must observe, was out a qualification. Now he held that to be such a not administered with such severity as it had been of fundamental principle of the English law, that a late ; but at present, the country Gentlemen to whom man cannot be called upon to answer questions which such powers as were given to Magistrates might per- go to criminate himself, that he thought that House haps be entrusted with the greatest safety, were Ire- would be very careful how they proceeded to violate quently overpowered by the union of the Magis- it by any order of theirs. The Honourable Baronet 'rates in adjoining Counties. His plan in moving had said that improper appointments had been made. for the Order which had been made by the House, was IHe wished he would come forward to prove that, to see if Ministers had any regard themselves to l and not have recourse to tha practice of throwing that law which they had got passed under pretence I out general insinuations. He knew that since he of benefiting the public, while it imposed on them a ; had been in office he had appointed two or three I'o very considerable expence. It was taken for granted i lice Magistrates. He did not know whethi r the that enormous abuses existed in the present system, Honourable Baronet meant to say they, or any of and he took it for granted that those abuses might them were improper ; but if he did, he hoped he ' be traced to Ministers themselves. It appeared to would cease to throw out such pitiful insinuations as him highly desirable that the House should be put i they had heard, and for once act a manly part, and i in possession of all that information for which he had boldly come forward with his charge. This he ho called, and he should therefore certainly move that ped he would do, and in the interim he would give 1 part of the order which had been rescinded, should it as positive a denial as words could convey. Tire Honourable Baronet had complained of the persons be reinstated in the order. If this were not done —if Magistrates were not called upon to skew what supposed to be concerned in the late murders, being were their qualifications, when an enquiry into the called upon to criminate themselves. As far as he state of the Police was instituted, how could that knew, they had stood on the same ground as all other House pretend to look into the conduct of public of- persons who were held in'custody on strong suspi ficers ? How could it be done if they were not to be cion of being a party to any great offence. Under called upon, lest their answers should criminatethem_ such circumstances the party was uniformly called selves ? With a similar feeling, it had formerly been to give an account of himself ; but at the same time said that Lord Melville ought not to be called upon told that he might be silent, or give such answers as to account for the public money which he had held i he pleased to avoid crimitiating himself. He did not in trust for the public. To him it appeared very inn- I know that any thing had taken place on the late exa portant that the House should know whether the per. iminations ; it was hardly fair for the individual who sons appointed by Ministers to fill import had been mentioned, and who was now in cimportant situa- went, to argue the subject at present. He would, tions, were or were not such as they ought to be, according to their (Ministers) own act of Parliament. however, observe, that he had been examined by Mr. If this information were withheld, what might not be Graham, and that that truly respectable Magistrate the evil effects of such conduct on those who now had found the circumstances stated against him so held situ itions of authority ? When it was asserted strong, that heif elt it his duty to commit him to pri that Magistrates ought not to be called upon to state son. He had, undoubtedly, a right to questit n the their qualification, lest their answers should crimi- person accused ;but in doing this he had always told nate themselves, he would ask how had these magis- him, (for it was a rule from which he knew Mr. tithes acted themselves on a late occasion ? Had Graham would not depart,) that he was at liberty to their conduct been regulated by such a principle as answer as he pleased. What grounds then could that winch it was contended, with a reference to them, the Honourable Baronet have for complaint against t ought to be constantly kept in view ? What had they that highly respectable individual ? So far was his conduct from deserving censure, that he had nu hesi been doing in the late examinatiohs which had taken cation in saying it was most worthy of public appro place of persons who were supposed to have been concerned in the murder of the late Mr. Mares family? bation. He (Aft. Ryder) was not fully aware that it was necessary to take up the time of the House What had they been doing, but endeavouring to make men, whom they had ever so little reason to any longer ; but he could not refrain from express suspect, say that which might criminate themselves ? ing a wish that the Honourable Baronet would cease to come forward as he had done that night,(and!itevas This inquisitorial power they had been in the habit not the first time) with unfair insinuations. It helmet of exercising daily, and what right had they to ine flict the punishment which they had inflicted on per- any charge to prefer, he hoped he would make it in sons brought before them? What was now the si- a bold manly manner ; and this, he should think, tuition of that unfortunate person who was in con - would he more satisfactory to the feelings of the Ho ' finement on suspicion of being concerned in the late namable Baronet himself, than coming forward with murders, Allblas ? What was he • kept for ? Why that sort of general-insinuation, which could only be was he put in chains, immured in a dungeon , and met by a general, equivocal, and unsatisfactory denial. called upon every day to criminate himself? It was Mr. TIERNEY agreed with the Honourable Ba stated in the daily prints, that the only circumstance r onet, that it was necessary (as the Legislature had, against him was, his inability to account for a guar. in the first instance, required that Magistrates should ter of an hour of his time on the night on which one prove their qualification for office), they should shew of the murders was committed. If this were all the that such qualification was still in existence. The ground of suspicion against him, they had no right House, he contended, had the right to know the fact, to keep him in prison ; they had no right to treat for if under any positive law any Magi ,trate had in him as he had been treated. Whet was it done for? curred penalties, there must be (eaid Mr. Tierney) For what purpose but to make him criminate him- some mode of convicting him. The reason f.r refu- I self ? All this was known - to the public, but no corn- ,sing to agree to the motion, he strongly suspected : plaint was heard. There might , he owned, be some was, because it was kaown to the Government that excuse found for it in the anxiety to bring those to some particular Magistrates had infringed the laws. justice who had commuted such terrible outrage s, The sub j ect was impoi taut, and deserved notice. It r but he thought those who suffered t hus, and who kil l. the mode of. coming .at the information, v.Litlt the --........ 6.301 , 1 i li c rxt ok Ona [PRICE SIX PENCE-HALFPENh Honourable Baronet desiied was incorrect, no doubt I from a principle of pubic justice, the Right Hollow; I rable Secretary would suggest the best mode Of coot ling at therfact, in order that the laws might n u t b e ! evaded. • The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER Icoaceived,„ that the Hon. Baronet bad not stated any grounds to induce the House to accede to his motion. It had been assumed by the Hon. Gentleman, that with the slightest evidence for the production of the qualifications, they ought to be produce.!. if the law had been violated, that might be a ground for movit, but in the present instance there was not the least tittle of evidente that the law had ben I broken. There writ: two answer to the propsition of the Hon. Baronet : tkat there was nu reason to believe that the law was hroken ; and secondly, i if it was violated, it ought to be the last thing fur the House to do to call upon the individual viulatitig, or charged with violating the law, to say that he had so violated it. There had not been any ground laid,or charge roade.against any one individual ; the motion, rru d thnt such might hive been the case. Bironet had stated that persons might have broken the law, but that could wit fur. a ground for itiquii y. Motions must nut be en te.t lined by the House upon mere supposition that the law teas broken. Besides, there was a reatedy Rivet in the Courts t f LA .V by qui tam action when the law might be st itrd, the evidence produ.:ed, and ! then the Jury must determine. There was nettling in the law which did not equally apply to the Magis trate; of Contities'in England and Wales, as well as Police Magistrates. Would the House consent to call upon Magistrates, under such circumstances, to say, not what their qualification was at the time they I accepted office, but *hat it actually is at the present moment. Such a call weuld be unjust in every prin ciple. The I lonourable Boone' seemed to think that the law, with reference to the late abuses is the me. trapolis, had been exercised with much severity, ex tremely improper; but even of that assestion there was no foundation in proof. It was very easy for any person to hold the Magistrates Up to view as ac ing improperly in some cases, but would the Nouse take a mere newspaper statement for truth ? In the case of Allblas, the person alluded to, there were some strong circumstances of suspicion, which in duced the Magistrates to give him at least an oppor tunity of clearing himself. The questions which had been put to him, and which he had not satisfactorily answered, were sufficient to authorise his detention until he should so answer ; and this detention would have the effect, if he did answer satisfactorily, of not only clearing his character, but of shewing that they at least were warranted in detaining him. If the Magistrates had proceeded to compel him to crimi nate himself, then, indeed, they would have exceeded their audio: ity, but no such thing appeared. When he was, originally examined, there were circumstances transpired which might have justified the Magistrates in detaining him. When he was again apprehended, were there not some additional circumstances which came out in evidence fully authorising his further de tention ? There was then a certain degree t f harsh ness evinced against the Magistrates by one set of Gentlemen in the Heine, who complained that they had not exerted themselves sufficiently to discover the authors et the climes which had so sullied the character of the metropi lis. Then up started ano ther set of Gentlemen, entertainiug different ideas on the subject, and they say, 1 0 Oh, we don't charge the Magistrates with being too lax, hut we .do charge them with using too much severity."— How, were the Magistrates to act between these two extremes ? they were obliged to discharge a painful duty, but it became doubly painful exposed to such animadversions. In the pry gress of discovering the perpetrators of the dreadful scenes which disgraced the metropolis, they were obliged to examine many persons on suspicion, and they had in the execution of that duty done nothing more than what might be naturally expected. The Hon. Baronet had charged his Majesty's Ministers with making improper ap. pointments in the Magistracy, that (supposing the fact which he could not admit to be so, of the non. qualification at presentl was an unftir charge, because if the person appointe'd had the qualification whets appointed, there was no authority on the part of the Government to prevent him from subsequently part• ing with that qualification. With respect to the existing qualification, the Hennurable House would not desire it, and even if they did, there were sufficient official documents which could readily be furnished, clearly to spew what was required to be slleven. Sup posing Parliament was to institute an inquiry at the Bar under a Penal Act which a Magistrate might commit, and to call upon him to produce his qualifi cation, he might choose to answer the question re specting it, or he might refuse, and the House could not compel him to produce it. If therefore the House could not do it in such a case, they would, he was certain, do it now. Mr. WHITBREAD conceived that the chief of the Right Honourable Gentleman's arguments might as well have been produced when the whole of the motion was before the House. The imputation on the Magistracy was not thrown by the Hon. Baronet-, but by the House who had acceded to the original motion. The Honourable Gentleman did not wish to cast blame upon them ; he was aware they were entitled to respect. One of them he knew well, Mr. Graham, a m.n of pertLct integrity, of consummate alAity, and prone to administer the striotest justice. The public were much indebted to him. but the system was not perfect. He well remembered its hrst introduction into the House, w ' en Mr.Wilidham , exerted himself most strenuously against the Act passing into a Law, considering the principle of the sy stem as fraught with infraction en the liberties of the subject: orig nal prnpcsers of it expected to reap fruit from it, but they were ckceived. Instead of its producing wholesome effects, it had the eon 'teary bearing. The object of the Honourable B 'react was to a:sat:tin wkether the Magistrates trete F.,. -, PwR . -s.;----7 I