Star. — London, England, 1808-02-26 00:00:00

mien but a very short time, .indulge at the or i''''' - -., te o f that night would convince him.— „„,,,,, t a l str ess ° had hcen laid because there appeared to psw - i n the correspondence, and because there ap rod t hree l\erttersresof Lord Leveson of the same N o rh pcct to the first, he could tale 411 3 da • te. if to assert, that if these chasms were 1 ni l, t he adjimrt matter would not serve either his „ n o that night, or any other upon the like subject; "--__A ,res pect to the latter, the circumstance was al:al i ame re clerical mistake,but was such as every 7-11 aid m an must acknowledge to be so, when it was dent;that the whole of the correspondence was d begun and ended, between the 30th Au r•Pan'll 211 September. The observations therefore rmystery, and magnitude, being concerned in at,a qui t eout of the question, and to every ra loalit' m esa must appear puerile. When the opera commenced against Copenhag en, and as Aticals/we te hof Aug .„ ~ us t, the intelligence reach ed ',,„' a : ch the 20t and at that moment the Court of St. r-3 , „,.. C h under the influence of France. And ?e:s.this to pic he could e nlar g e at very considerable ---,..th..-but as this subject would again be discussed ''Neonesday next, he would retrain, at present, on y observation on it, save only to say, fr ff waskinno t fairly dealt by, when he was charged vitirimp. utine allY thing like collusion on the sub' ect „i Denmark, between the late Administratiort . and itoce--there never at any time fell from his lips an i ota thatcherished or expressed it. (Here the , Right r..endeman entered into a full and equivocal re- A fu m. rat i; -- 0 1' the charge). He then proceeded to spew did not desire the friendship of Great that Denmar k Bria i n , e y en w hen France with an a rm y , hostile and t daivro os to h e r, was on the very borders of Hol i l . On t he papers respecting this circumstance, if S ,il ot h e rs were wanting, he could rely as a reason for th„Botts that took place in the North of Europe. if t he pa ra pers ca lled for were p r oduced, great public venience must follow. In fact, the y if , could not 1 , I,„c.Pnroduced w ithout imminent public dang er. We that ally in peril. And yet the , a but one ally — Je / ht Honourable Gentleman would have his Ma corr #ty's Ministers disclo se all her esponde enCourts ce, all I . for correspondence that passed between th d Stockholm and. London were to be exposed, be cause a species of constitutional curiosity had de sanded it ; and to gratify its insatiable appetite, se were to sacrifice a faithful and sincere friend. , -But that Gentleman conies down to the House, II armed with the Moniteur, and from extracts and paragraphs of that paper, calls upon Ministers for i refutation of charges there made against them. He cold not avoid having recourse, on this occasion, to ;murk, that so delicately careful was the Moniteur of , ttecientleman and his friends, that whenever it hap ) ' they were run dry in a debate, it fortunately rived the following da y to replenish their resources. y, on this event, when they were come to a kind of ' bath-like stillness, in drops a lucky Mcmitarr, and sires a spark of fire to their drooping embers.—Mitai ors were also called upon to lay upon the Table of that House, the whole of the correspondence between tire Danish Chap d'Affaires and themselves, subse quent to the capitulation of Copenhagen. This could not be done any more than that of granting copies of the Correspondence between §weden and Denmark, tfeibich this country had no legitimate possession, and over which we had no right whatsoever. The Right Honourable Gentleman, in truth, might as nen callfot the communication that has passed on .• • betweta every Court in Europe as those. Indeed, • as to what did pass between Ministers and the Daniih 0 Charge d'Affaires, it was all a matter of confidence, I at d, if produced, could not answer any purpose as • yet specified. It was true that in his communications i with him (Mr. Canning) he urged to him the pru • dence of his Court listening to terms of amity and r peace; and, said Mr. Canning, " I take credit to r myself, for recommending the salutary advice." — Where was the error, he asked ? So little did that respectable person think it error, that he adopted the s opinion, and also forwarded the suggestion to his e Court, but no answer was ever sent to it. There was if a most wanton and unfounded report propagated, and to roundly asserted by the Right H o n . Gentleman, that tt i Ministers had endeavoured to violate the Treaty of e. Copenhagen, and the terms of the capitulation, and of this was unblushingly declared to be the fact in that House, and before the world. Now, he took that occa. it sioa to declare in that House also, and in the face of the it world, that it was untrue. Ministers from the first to the iis lair were determined rigidly to observe the capitulation of in all iubearings. It was very true, that when the intelli 'se gene of the capitulation and the terms of it arrived, 'or two articles of it were not understood. The one was nd that which did relate to the sequestration of British his property, and its being doubtful whether all British ty, pro perty _ was included, or on l y that which was found in. el Zealand, and not what was elsewhere 'distributed •ed throughout the Danish dominions :it was referred to rnt therespective Commanders on the spot, and who also ne, had signed the capitulation, to say how it should be rch explained, when unfortunately both parties concurred tee in declaring, that it related only to the property found tan in Zealand ; and with whiat Ministers firmly abided. eel The other was, whether, by the capitulation, hostilities un- Were wholly to end altogether with Denmark, or I ate , wisher only the Treaty related but to Zealand, the se- slat of war. And in the same way a like reference ✓ a was made to the same persons, and they decided.that uch it adverted only to Zealand, and did not include any ether onepart o( Denmark ; and with this also his Ma lion iesty's Ministers agreed. This much he thought it his ) gbt duty to say, in vindication of the conduct of Govern sof merit from so foul an aspersion. As to the subject xiog d al- , more immediately before the House , he wished to bring to their recollection the fact of the insult which i say ' beemark had received in the irruption upon her ter nPai- iowst .... r ani and the disgrace inflicted upon one of her s, Ge which she did not resent ; and then, whenthe Ora . Preach General offered Norway to Sweden, does not :serer • Denmark conceal that fact from the British Court, 4hr Ind, relying on the friendship of France notwith aCo --!4nding, .signifies by that a tacit connect ion with unfit h er , in p r eference to a union with this country he tx It has, however, been said, that we should not do as ve to much to our enemy, as he would do to us. What- How. ever might be asserted by new or Old MINI, WI'S be at the would declare, that when she has excited nations to de . a gainst us, it becomes us to use all means to a nno y' ✓ g for Nor did he look for credit on the score of fer ia 0 , ~. bearance one atom, being determined to have recourse Lightlf 'to retaliation in every way he could. He found no Ica, 0 such thing as forbearance in the Monireor, and, con- sideriag the Man with whom we were contending, if he might imitate the example of his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Sheridan) in giving garbled extracts of a Roman poet, to would he, and say= Arno virotnilife esno,"-- Fas est ab hone Joust" ' Upon the whole consideration of the subject, and the motion, he must conclude by saying; that if it were gramed, we must be not only insincere to our Ally, but indiscreet and unjust to ourselves. He would therefore resist it. Mr. WINDHAM thought that very little of the speech of the Right Hon. Secretary applied to the question. He begged to remind him and the House, that according to the arguments advanced by that Se cretary, the motion of his Right Honourable Friend could not be refused : for if it be true that no infor mation could be derived from the papers, there could be no harm in producing them. By this plea, Mini sters would always be justified in withholding papers. If it be true also, that these papers would furnish no information, it was as true that the House ought to be satisfied of that, and upon this simple reasoning they ought to be granted. This mode of arguing came therefore to the point, confidence, as was exactly saying, " Don't cross-examine me, what I say is true." The only reply that could fairly be made to this, was, that the more peremptory the refusal, the more determined was their suspicion. At all times there was a jealousy in Denmark r es p ectin g its neu trality ; and with respect to her warfare, we must look to find it of the most severe and determined de scription, excited as they are by the manner in which we have commenced our attack upon them. No confidence can, therefore, now be broken--no rule of faith infringed upon--and, of course, no reasonable excuse can now be offered for withholding them from the House. In short, from n total absence of all ar gument, and no proof of any injury that can arise, either to friend or enemy, by the production of those papers, they are kept back, and confidence - is made a stalking-horse for the refusal. There certainly was a great de gree of pliantness in the House e on thi s side oc casion ; time, however,- wo uld best prov h was politically or morally r ight—those who solicited, or those who refused. Mr. PONSONBY expressed his surprise at the man ner in which this motion was taken up by Ministers, and entered at considerable length into a view of the conduct of this country against Denmark by decep tion. The question really was, whether we had pro posed a edntract of stipulation to Sweden for giving up possession of Zealand on our evacuation of it? If the charges brought against the good faith of this country were true, to what could he compare such conduct bat to the attack of two robbers, the one of whom meeting a traveller on the high road , s hould say to him, give me your money, and I'll spare your life, on which the poor traveller complies, but as soon as he departs, the robber whistles to his comrade, who all the while stands on the other side of the hedge, to come. forward and dispatch the unfortunate person who had been just plundered? so it was with us towards Denmark , i f the charge preferred tees so be cr edited, and until his Majestyl-s Ministers ratted or denied it, he was afraid the imputation would rest upon Ils. - Mr. LAING was very far from supposingshatt Moniteur should be ta ken as authority to call on Mi nisters to advance statem ents on every occasion, felt in opposition to those wh ich it contained ; but he himself right in stating, that when it made deliberate charges, which went' to dishonour and disgrace the Country, it was the duty of Ministers, under and uch un cir- cumsta nces, to refute and repel such gross founded attacks. Lord TEMPLE wished to ask the Right Honou rable Seeeetary (Canning ) . one question, to which he expected to receive a distinct answer. If the Right Honourable Gentleman did not wish to give an ex plicit and satisfacto r y answer, he was certain that the country would judge for itself, from his silence. The question whiCli helneant to propose was this, whe ther or not any proposition was made to any Power to occupy Zealand, after our troops should evacu ate it ?--( A great cry of Question ! Question ! fol lowed.) i Mr. W. SMITH thought it not at all extraordina ry that the Gentlemen on the other side should be anxi egerofto"aQuqueeticinstion elwhuthcincOu'ldrathn 'ic;:, believed, be answered to their credit. QuestionouthansOMitlgnnorc.jaereTera:HrsyQuDAestiNonthienrose, ! d said, that he should not occupy the time of the House long, in the reply to which he was entitled, because, in fact, he had heard no argument urged against the substantial charges which he had made. He was not at all sur prized to contemplate that solemn silence, and grave muscular rigidity, which distinguished the Colleagues of his Right Honourable Friend (Mr. Uniting). na: e If he could not refu te facts, or rebut charges of th ture exhibited that night, he certainly had the merit of drilling aiid shaping both the ccuntenances and demeanour of his colleagues to his wis iment his t s laughing.) He did not mean to compl Right Honourable Friend, when he acknow theledged, that if eloquence an d declamation could answer purposes &,f a Minister, no man could be sent sshunsbetter qualified to fill and to continue in his pre t ion than the Right Honourable Secretary. But al lowing to his Right Honourable Friend all the rise& to which he was justly entitled on this account, he must say, that no eloquence, no dexterity of argu ment, or force of declamation, could make or efface the impression produ ced b y the,question of the Noble Lord (Temple.) The proposition was a simple o th no, and perhaps the more di ffi cult to be solved on at account, b eca use it might be considered beneath the level of his Right Hon. Friend's capacity.—(A great cry Quulion! Q ues tion 0 - tary CANNING said , in tnswer to the , M r . Secre 1 question put to him so directly by Gentlemen on the `opposite side, he had no hesitation to declare, that it was the intention of the Government of this ebantry to execute the treaty concluded with Dennis*, `raring to the striet letter of it. Possibly, sifter the \ratification of the treaty, some doubts might have arisen on points of policy, in consequence of a decla ration of Denmark in favour of France ; but he .ivould again distinctly repat . , tha lieinitters never entertained an idea of retaining taAmd either by • theitatelves or by auxiliaries, and that. proposition was' made to Swedetioseeck eliti other pilleter, for that purpose. --- L or d TEMPLE dill'bot conceive !tit' question to hick been at all answerei `That question war, ther it was proposed tq any °the power tto ocenpy Zealand after our *ls should have evacuated it Mr. CANNING * 'ed, did the Noble Lord mean to inquire whether; dm.. all 'hopes of a termination of the war with Deninark'had ceated, Ministers had it in contemplation , or actually pn)vided, to take any hostile steps against that coliasrif ? . The cry of order, order , qiestion, questi on, it 04 0 6-. came general, and after a few Words from Dr. 'Law rence, The question being loudly called for, thenumbers gallery was cleared, and the Holt* divided. The were—Aies, 86 ; Noes, le4. Majority against the motion, 99. • Whilst the Ayes Were in the lobby, Mr. PON SONBY stated, that it was intended to go to anotllir division that night. uestion _ Mr. WINDHAM then added, that ontheq of the Army Estimates to -morrow (this day)„ it was likely there would be a considerable discussion, the attendance of Members would therefore be particu larly necessiz On thegalle ry being re-opened, we found Mr. W. TAYLO moving for some documents relative to t he importation of specie into this country ; the mo tion was resisted by the Chancellor of the o Exchequer, and was, after some con versation, agreed t be with- drawn, L or d CASTLEREAG - 1 was proceeding to As move for the usual docu m ents preparatory to the dis cussion on the Army Estimates-- Mr. TIERNEY begged his Lordship's pardon. for a moment, whilst h e asked any of the Right Hon. Gentlemen on the other side, if it was their intention that the Army Estimates should be biought to morrow ? It could hardly be expected that the ques tion on the Orders in Council Bill would be brought on at the then late hour of the night ; and if shed one was to be brought forward to-morrow, he woulwas be glad so know on what day the other question likely to be discussed ? . - The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER lamented that he was not able to point out any open day on which either of these subjects could with con venience be discussed. According to the custom of the house, notices were to have precedence of the other questions on the Order List. But if Gentlem were to persist in the practice of giving notices h en number of trivial questions, at a time important subjects were appointed for discussion, they must ü blic business. c o nsiderably retard the p Mr. TIERNEY observed, that the practice of giving notices was considered as an obr e t a :f general convenience. It the Right Hon. and eel Gen tleman wished that the practice should be done away, he might appoint a day for the discussion, and see whether the house would be likely to agree with him in that desire. At present, unfortunately for him, the only two notices that were likely to cr eate discus sion came from the Mends of that Right Honourable Gentleman. To be candid with the Hon. Contleman, he publicly avowed that it was his intention, from th il e darkness that was kept about the Orders in Counc business, to consult privately with some of the best informed merchants as to the probable effects of that me asure. He thought that some time would h ~ben given that we might, have an opporttntitya ve of hearing something from America, at stiCh a crisis as the present, before t he carrying of such a measure into execution. Th e CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUE it R persisted in his determinat ion ; adding, that if should be necessary that the House should sit on Sa turdays, the questions before it must be disposed of as speedily as possible. The two questions were then fixed for to-morrow (this day.) Lord CASTLEREAGH's motions were after wards put and agreed to. • • On the motion of Mr. CALCRAFT, it was or dered, that returns be male to the House of the num ber of men raised for the Militia since the time of the last returns, distinguishing the number of principals and substitutes, with an account of the average price fixed in the different counties for the payment of sub --,tes.—Adjourned at half after twelve o'clock. HOUSE OF LORDS. The Bishop of St. David's took the oaths and his seat. The Bank Loan Bil l, and the Unclaimed Dividends Bill, passed through Committees, and were reported. EDITION TO COPENHAGEN. The Earl o f DARNLEY gave notice of Ids intention to bring forward a motion on Thursday, respecting the Expedition to Co penhagen. OFFICES IN REVERSION SILL. On the motion of the Earl of LAUDERDALE, the second reading of this Bill was postponed till Tuesday. . DEBTOR AND CREDITOR. On the motion of the Earlof MOIRA, the second reading of the Debtor and Creditor Bill was postponed till Friday the th of March. TRADE TO TkIE BRAZILS. On the second reading of the Brazil Trade B ill, Earl BATHURST observed, that some misap prehension had existed with respect to sugar from the Brazils coming into competition with the sugar from critr-own colonies, in the home market, and thus in n t he West-India interests. This, however, wwould be effectually prevented by the high duties imposed upon foreign sugar. His Lordship urged the importance of the trade with the Brazils, from whence might be derived cotton, tallow, and vitreous other articles, and which might also be of essential benefit to our colonies, as a vessel trading from this country to the Brazils ' might take in there e latter of a cargo of articles of provision and lumber, of th which there was a photiful supply in the Brazils, and carrying them to our colonies in the West-Indies, it might fr om thence bring home a cargo of colonial pro duce. Lord AUCKLAND adverted to the state of the sugar market, hoping that it would not be still fur ther depressed. His Lordship stated, from the in formation he had been able to procure, that the quantirr of !agar produced in the Brazils was about 19,000 hogsheads, t he quantity produced in our own colonies was about 240,000 hogsheads, the latter of which was already about 70,000 hogsheads more than our own consumption required; and, with re speCt to the use of the surplus in the distilleries, he observed, that the whole distilleries of the United Kingdom would not tonsurne more than 111,1X/0 hogsheads. With respect to cotton, he believed be produce of the Brazils to amount to 44,00000 pounds; that °four own colonies wasabout 16,1 1 - '- pounds. lie was ready to admit this fen trade to be of very great value to this countri. •• , . , tos l i **Wert with reaped t‘e idea of inaking this cnuatre an toterpet for colonial. pro duce, that it would b e found impossible to force upon the Continent, that qirantity of colonial pro duce which it would consume under other circum stances, and with a direct trade:. He did not vie* this Bill precisely in the same light as his Nola - Friend, and if consid erations arising out of the tuaticte of the Prince Regent of Port Wholly a decided Opinion to oppose it, he must still give with respect to some circumstances connected wits it: As to the idea of the Noble ord, that cor e . and lumber could be procured from the Braeilk for our West India Colonies, be thought It not to be expected, nor did he conceive it possiliii that under the present circumstances of the 13razilei any attention coidd be paid to the cultivation of corn ei? the cuttin g . of lumber, particularly under that system of cultivation which would be adopted there, namelf, by means of slaves, continually imported ; it was fa r Cher to be apprehended that, from the fertility con sequent upon breaking up new lands, so large quantity of sugar might be prduced, as greatly to diminish the price of - that article. It was upon this system of importing slaves that he founded his prin cipal objection to the Bill. His Lordship briefly reca pitulatedthe proceedings of Parliament with respect to the abolition of the Slave Trade ; and observed, that that Act would confer immortal honour on the Par liament that agre-d to it, and would be remembered when all petty disputes and dissentious were forgot ten. Ministers, he contended, ought to have followed up that Act, and the Address to his Majesty then vot. ed, by refusing to enter into any commercial engage‘ meat with the Portuguese Government unless it con sented to abolish the Slave Trade; otherwise British capital would be employed to a great extent in carry. ing on this detestable teaflic to the Brazils, which would thus derive great benefit from which our colo nies were excludeil. The Legislature had decided, that wherever commercial benefit might be derived from that trade , nothing could justify the inhumanity ( • its continuance. The Brazils must exist as an indepen dent State, by the protection afforded by the British Navy—was it then to result, that notwithstanding the Act of the Legislature, this trade was to be allowed to be carried on by British capital, and under the protection of the British Navy ; and this too, for the still further increase of produce, of *which there wee, unfortunately, too great an accumulation in our Owl colonies ? Every consideration of humanity, out and policy, required, in his opinion, that Ministers should have made the abolition of the Slave Tea previous condition to entering into any tommer engagement with the Portugueze GOVEIIIMent. /id2lAWEESßUßYobserved, that the trade in thsrPortag colonial produce , h ad been previ ously .ankd on through the mother cou ntr y , and the colony having become the seat of GOVEITIMEnt, there was no principle upon which these connnercial ar rangements could have been refused. As to the Slave Trade, his opinion upon that subject was well known, but the abolition of that trade having become an act of the Legisl a ture, it became the duty, and it was the wish of the Executive Government to carry. that act into effect boo effect, and to use every m eans to carry *objec . t of the Address to his Majesty, with respect to inducing rorei g n Powers to abolish Irat Trade. — The circumstances in which the Portugueze Govern• meat had been placed, and the departure of that Go.. eernment for the Brazils, had hitherto precluded any attempt to enter into negociation with a view to at tain that object. It was scarcely possible to prevent British capital from being embarked in this trade, car ried on to the Brazils ; but no opportunity would be lost by the Executive Government, in endeavouring to procure the consent of the P ortu g uese GOVernMent to a bolish the Trade. It could not be expected of him to enter into any discussion upon the supposition of a refusal on the part of the Portuguese Cover: mesa to consent to such abolition. AUERICAN INTERCOURSE BILL. At the request of Lori Auckland, it was agreed by Earl Bathurst to postpone the third reading of this Bill, till to-morrow, which was ordered. FRENCH DECREE. The Earl of LAUDERDALE adverted to the Paper laid on the table, containing information re specting the increased rigour in executing the French Decree, which had been received previous to the 11th of November, ISM, and cbserved, that there was no secret in it, the publication of which could endanger any person, or tend to destroy any source of inform ation, the most import ant parts of it having already appeared in the publ ic newspapers. He theref ore moved, that it should be printed. pLord HAWKESBURY did not think it necessary tb have them printed, especially as the Noble Lord who pressedlor their pro . duction, had treated of them *papers of public notoriety. (These are the papers erdered by the House on Tuesday last, against the 'wish of Ministers.) As they had then considered them so well known, he could net see why they should now want them to be more public. They were upon the table for their Lordships to refer to, and it was for them to decide whether they should be prin ed. Lord GREY thought it, was absolutely necessary to have them printed, to ice whether what had been ca lled a private correspondence was the same as that which had appeared in the public newspapers. Lord BA'rHURST maintained they ought not to be printed, sash y would then be circulated all over the world, lgh they were from private individu als ; and he instanced the ill consequences of printing s ome Papers relative to Toulon-ey were upon to the table, and their Lordships ps who wished might refer them. Lord GRENVILLE thought the only difference • was, whether their Lordships should. be accommce dated with the Papers in t e hir own hands, or be com pelled to compare themk*at the table. The motion was then put and Tried. - The Earl of LAUDERD AL .erefd; that one part of the information contain:4 lathe ra per an the table, bad appeared some time shasois an Evening kiewspaper, from which either Master. merit have recessed it, or to which they sent , it.. What, be 4 alluded to ems a letter from Rotterdiati Isaias his - •.. September 1807, satin t, - -d in evialing tLe _--;~', lietlefi t - in September , stain he United Lordship read, dated 1507tg, 111030 that increased rigour had been need in executing the Aieved dee iern me reiel reitriCtiOnfi ; bat Os Lordship observed, 14,00000 that - in: that per thanalissa tarked-to it an order 11 , Ili of the. pirector-Gatend of the CusuirErnerriop ettl'of the thist rekels 461 in dap ..11eh had sari. touched in jib._ , Spit 'WI seized, p n V. t- a to to - - ti I. 1 I ot- red •oto IP' • on- I vy. kich alo- led, ved ref ' • • :a et io. le