Star. — London, England, 1820-06-17 00:00:00

EXCHEQUER, the House went, into a Comtbittee of Supply. Mr. A RBUTIINOT moved a sum of £476,494 for the Commissariat and Storekeepees Department. Mr. HUME objected to the manner in which the estimates for the Commissariat and Storekeeper's Department were confounded. He complained also, that an increase was.made in several items, as com pared with last year. Mr. ARBUTHNOT replied, that the reason of putting the estimates together was,. because the two departments were united under one Gentleman.— Next year, if lie should have to propose the esti mates, he would profit by the suggestion of the Hon. Member.—The Resolution was then agreed to. The next Resolution was for a sum not exceeding. £2.41,000 for the Barrack Department. Mr. BENNETT deemed it right to call the atten kion of the Committee to the amount of the vote, and The circumstances attending it. By the new schedule {,resented in these. Estimates, an. addition of £88,150 to the expense of last year under this head was pro posed to them. He sincerely believed that this ad ditional expense might be dispensed with, and could hardly conceive any evil in a flee country greater than that of keeping a large Humber of soldiers as sembled in a body during a period of peace. Such a state of things mast continually endanger and place in a state of risk the true exercise and administration' of a Constitutional Government. He could not view withaut alarm the collection of great bodies.of men with arms in their hands, .residing under the same root. Ile might be speaking strongly, but it was an evident sign of,a bad Government, whenever it ap peared to rely on the support of an armed force. Was it possible that his Majesty's Ministers meant. to con vert London into a garrison town? What ground'of necessity had been urged for establishing anything. of this kind in the King s-mews? He found in the Estimates a proposed vote of £3,500 for a new bar; rack in the City-road. A large sine was to be erected at Manchester, there being one already their of con siderable magnitude—Dlere it was intimated across the table, that the new London barrack was to be erected on the south side of Waterloo-bridge.j— Well, let that be as it might. Ile found that a new barrack was to be erected at Stockport; and really he must say, that no Government could stand in a more discreditable light than that of appearing dependent for their means of support upon measures or arrangements of this kind. He did not believe that any. other country in Europe was regulated in tjtis manner, or that any system of augmented mili tary force, or increasing barracks, was to be found, except among this heavily burdened people. For his corn part, he never would reconcile his views to the • - msideration of London as a military station, like I'.'_: dam, or other fortified places on the Continent. Ile thought the increase of the militiry insulting to the country, and dangerous to its permanent peace. Soldiers might put down an incidental disturbance; but who could say what evils might eventually arise from having eight or ten thousand men in arms, prrmanently established in barracks in the heart of tile Bt itish Metropolis ?-41-/ear,' hear, hear I).— lt was not merely the expense of the establishment that was objectionable; although when the general poverty of the natiy t op—when the statement which had been that night made by the Right Honourable Gentleman himself on the condition of Ireland— when the complaints which were made, day after day, of the distresses of the various interests of the country—when the Petitions which were poured into the House from almost every farmer, every trader, and every artizan, describing their absolute ruin (Ikar, hear)—when all these things were considered, it was rather too much to find that the only answer of Parliament to such representations, after civilly receiving them, was to raise additional troops, to im pose additional charges on the People, and to keep perpetually g oing round that miserable and cala nntous circle in which fresh distresses were produc tive only of fresh expenses, and those, of course, in their turn, of fresh distresses—(Hear, hear). He should certainly feel it his duty to take the sense of the Committee on that hrinch of the estimate under vuisideration. to which be had particularly adverted. Mr. WARD defended the necessity of erecting barracks in the North, upon the ground of the dis affection which the Magistrates had reason to believe gill prevailed in that quarter. Indeed, he himself could bear testimony to the existence there of a very discontented spirit. He had been not long ago at Carlisle, and at a race ball where he was present, he knew that several of the Ladies had been insulted as they passed through the streets ; they were told that they might wear their diamonds for that occasion, but it was the last time, as they would soon lose them. Colonel DAV I I " wished to know what necessity there seaslet; k Master in barracks where there were.wwfx r pftior where the detachments were so small thatatisirsaavas no occasion for the super i.aendance &reefer person ? The offices too ought to be filled tili'fiy 7 riteritorious O ffi cers. But that was not the case; for, in one place, he knew that the apo thecary of the town was a Barrack Master, and he knew of another where a stone-mason tilled the office. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, the increase of the Barrack expenses was no volun tary buithen imposed upon the country : it arose en tirely out of circumstarces that could not be avoided. Tee augmentation now proposed was rendered ne cessary in consequence of the agitated state of the country, and for the protection of the loyal and M. du,trious part of the community. In almost all the great manufacturing towns of the kingdom, protec tion was sought for against the enemies of public order, and that protection could not be afforded ex cept by the employment of a military forte. On that account it became necessary to have particular places fur the accommodation of troops ; and by that means to render them more effective than they would be if mixed with an agitated populace. The expense at rending the augmentation of the military force was comparatively a small evil; the greatest mischief of all was the existence of a turbulent spirit ; and the best economy would be to haveauch a force at once a, wou'id Fut it completely doer*: /lilies true, that provisions had been suede for adtbratibilating a bat talion of the Guards, and the 9re*V‘vsfs tine of the places appropriated foe. t, putpciXe ; 'but this was no new thing; the Mls r , Vlen before been formed iiltt) a teinp orar y' rec ' • tar troops. Mr. E coulzhaarsaffas .. Trozn declaring, that the subject was one oat Portia he thought the People '.alit justly to feel great alarm. There were no less , ' than ninety-seven barracks in the country-a-ill of them with regular establishnients. It lad beehltu:ely said by Ministers ) that the additional troops were re:. qnisite to meet 'a temporary exigency—if so, why provide them With permanent accomithodation? In Manchester, for Instance, where there was already one Barrack, another was erecting at an expense of E 28,000 ; so that, because that place was once trou bled, it seemed to he supposed that it must be so for ever. By and bye, he presumed, York, or some other place, would have an additional Barrack, in conse quence of a similar presumption. At Stockport, also (which was within eight miles of Manchester), an ad ditional Barrack - was building, merely because there had been a little disturbance in that place, which had not been quelled .until tile arrival of the military.— The same was the case at Oldham, which was within four miles of Manchester. Good GOD ! Where would be the end of this, if, in every village in which any appearance of disquiet were manifested a Barrack was to be built? What necessity was there for an additional Barrack at Barnsley ? What necessity was there for an. additional Barrack at Carlisle?— Whgt necessity was there, in addition to the Infantry Barrack, for a Barrack for a complete Regiment of Cavalry iu Glasgow ? He entreated Ministers to pause in their course.. He entreated them to consi der the consequences of thus continually adding to the expenditure of the country. Mr. ARBUTHNOT justified the erection of Bar racks as absolutely necessary to keep by themselves those troops that were required for quieting the dis turbances of the country. 11e knew nothing of stone masons, apothecaries, or any others but reduced Officers being appointed as Barrack Masters. A plan had been adopted by the Treasury to dispense with many Barrack Masters ; and he knew that to have been carried into effect. Mr. ABERCROMBIE observed, that the Chan cellor of the Exchequer Irid now confessed, that the disturbances and disaffection of the People were such that Barracks were absolutely necessary for quieting them. It would, therefore, be a reproach to the House of Commons not to make a particular inquiry into this circumstance, and ascertain whether these Barracks were necessary ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, in explanation, wished to remind the House, that all he had said was, that where disturbances existed in very populous places, it would be necessary to have the troops concentrated for the mote effectual suppres sion of them. Mr. CALCRAFT differed completely with the Chancellor of the Exchequer, as to the cause of hav ing increased numbers of Barracks; for it was the corrupt system pursued by Ministe:s that caused _those alarming symptoms in the internal state of the country, for which the Right Honourable Gentle man saw no other remedy but numerous troops and barracks. If in July last Ministers had tried to re lieve the distresses of the people, there would have been no disturbances ; and these could never,be quieted by force, unless inquiries were first made, and conciliatory measures adopted for their removal. He hoped this Session would not be allowed to pass away without a full inquiry into all these points. Mr. W. SMITH admitted that the country was in a distracted state ; but he wished to know if the way of putting down the disturbances was to vote away a sum of £lBB,OOO, merely on the word of a Minister, or on the demand of certain Magistrates, of whom the House knew nothing ; and he saw no reason why any such confidence should be placed in a set of M*. gistrates unknown to that House. He did not im pute to Ministers that they intended to destroy the liberty of the country by a Standing Army ; but he was sure, if such a project should hereafter be at tempted, it would be impossible to prevent its ac complishment, while such a monstrous system as this existed in the country. Mr. CREEVEY wished to knew why a Barrack Master General should have the enormous salary of £5 a day ? Indeed he considerelthe whole of the expenses relating to Barracks as most enormous, and it would be utterly impossible for the country to go on in this system of increased expenditure. Mr. ARBUI r HNOT, in explanation, said, that Barrack Masters General had been General Officers in the Army, and it was in consideration of that cir cumstance they had the allowance in question. An Honourable Minium under the gallery wished to know why a sum of £15,600 was charged for building a Barrack in Glasgow, calculated to con tain 248 men, while, for a Barrack of the same size, in Leeds, £28,000 was charged? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER re plied, that this difference of expense arose from the ground, &c. being sold at a dearer rate in one place than in another. Mr. T. WILSON observed, that although the tu multuous proceedings of .the country might have arisen out of distress, yet it was necessary that the Government should bo arme•;l with a sufficient degree of energy and power to put a stop to them. And could not help censuring the language used on the other side of the House, as tending to obstruct the proceedings of Government, and to defeat those mea sures which they now conceived necessary- for. pre serving the tranquillity of the country. Mr. CALCRAFT contended, that every Member of the House had a right to ask for an explanation, when such great sums were expended for purposes which they conceived altogether unnecessary. After some observations from Mr. Anzac:wining and the CHANCELLOR of the Excustooxa t the Douse divided : For the Resolution - - - - 72 ' Against it - - - • - - 30 Majority The next Resolution was to grant a sum of 3,3171. for the repairs of Henry the Seventh'* Chapel. This was agreed to. Mr. ARBUTHNOT then moved•to grant £25,000 for repairing the Forts and defraying other expenses, on the Coast of Africa. Mr. W. SMITH said, he hoped that monerwoul be expended in an economical manner, orvthesettle ments on the Gold Coast; and that t hat part of the world would not be distinguished hereafter, as it for merly was, by notorious jobbing and extravagance. ' I He did not believe there * er was a sum voted for the service of the African ast which had not been misapplied. The forts - there afforded no protection whatever, and they were anything but advantageous to the country.- Mr. ARBUTHNOT said, that no one should have, right to e s erkici money ihefe Without itit~oiity off' the CtOvernment r —The ttiotiori was weed tc The next motion 'was, That the sum •Ststo,cioo sh`Ould be ea , tiatlanl Id awards made by Commistioners for Comb the claims rnado bithe owners of certain Portuguese and Spanish vessels captered by British ships, and as an indemnity to the said wieners. Dr. LUSHINGTON declared, • that this heavy ex pense on the country arose out of the gross ignorance of the Noble Lord at the head of the Admiraltyßoard. The instructions with which the British cruiters had ,been charged were acted upon as they. should have been—but the consequence was, that several vessels were .captured and condemned in violation of these principles, the support of which was as essential in his eyes as the destruction of the Slave Trade. Such, indeed, was the unequivocal injury which those or ders had effected, that'the Noble Secretary of State was obliged to send out instructions to suspend the orders. The consequence was, a treaty was entered into by which we were pledged to make good the losses sustained by the Spaniards iu consequence of the captures. But the House would hear with surprize, that up to this day not a farthing of the captured goods was put in the possession of Government. It was the duty of Ministers to take care that the pro ceeds of the captures should be made available to the carrying into effect the Convention, and to prevent the addition to our public burdens which their negli gence necessarily brought about. Mr. ARBUTHNOT stated, that part of the pro ceeds were recovered in the Court of Admiralty, and part w as in the hands of the captors. The Reiolution was then agreed to. The following Resolution was then proposed : That £41,187 be granted to defray the charges and expenses of repairs of temporary Public Builciings. Mr. HUME complained, that thepreparations for the Coronation appeared to him to have been built upon too substantial a scale. They were calculated rather for a duration of twenty or thirty years, than for temporary accommodation. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, it was intended to—submit to the House an estimate of the expenses 'of the Coronation at some early time, when an .oppbrtunity would be given to the Hon. Member to observe upon the expenditure. Mr. CREEVEY wished to know when the Esti mate would be submitted to the House? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, as soon as the Privy Council had determined the ex tent of the expenditure. Mr. CREEVEY.—But will they be submitted be fore the Coronation ? • . The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER.— Surely.—The Resolution was agreed to. The following Resolution was then agreed to: 1'0,60 for expenses of the Houses of Lords and Commons. The following Grants were also agreed to : £6,889, to pity up the Dtficiencies of the Estimates of the Expenses voted last year, for the two Houses of Parliament. £27,604, for the Salaries and Allowances to the Officers of the two Houses of Parliament. The following Resolution was then proposed : £60,000, for the Foreign and other Secret Services of his Majesty. • Air. HUME stated, that there remained £33,000 of the sum voted for this service last year unem ployed, and it was quite surprising to him that the exigencies of that department for this year should require such a sum. He regretted very much the extent of it, and hoped that none of it was employed in home service, except perhaps in secret commissions to Milan and Naples I Lord CASTLEREAGH said, that the Honourable Gentleman must be aware, that though the same services were not now required as during war, this charge could not be entirely done away. Mr. HARVEY believed it would be found that this item of public expense was always larger in the 'year of a General Election !—(flear, hear). Mr. HUSKISSON was surprised at the character of the remark which he had just heard, when it must be known to the House that there was an Act of Parliament in existence, commonly called Mr. Burke's Act, which required that every item of this grant should be accounted for—and that three Secretaries of State should declare upon oath that it was ex pended in foreign service —(Heat, hear). The Resolution was agreed to. The sum of £25,406 was granted for Civil Contingeneke. The following Resolution was then proposed: That £5OOO be granted to the Institution of the Reheat, frat the Destitute. Mr. HUME objected to the . principle of Govern ment interfeting in Public Char ities. Mr. BENNETT spoke in favour of the grant.— The Institution in question, he said, had a strong claim on the Legislature, because it received a num ber of persons, for whom Government should wise provide. Doctor LUSHINGTON said, the Institution saved the country a very considerable sum ; a number of young persons convicted of petty crimes, and sew. tenced to slight punishments, were received into the Establishment; but 'no funds could withstand the constant demands that were made upon it ; many persons who were actually starving, though recoma •blended br Magistrates, were reluctantly turned from the doors of the Institution. Mr. LOCKHART contended that such charity; in fact, was an encouragement of crimes. The Resolution was then agreed to. A sam of 5€25,000 was then proposed to be granted to the Knights of hialteand the French Emigrants. Mr. HUME s said, that the Knights of Malta ought to be paid out of the revenues of Malta. The finances of France, they were told, were in a flourishing state; our's were not. Were those French Emigrants pen sioned for life, or were they still in this country ? Mr. ARBUTHNOT said many of them were now in their own country; but their services, especially in Corsica and Toulon, spoke for themselves. _ _ _ Xlll,OOO were noted for miscellaneous charges of Printing for the House of Commons. £21,000 were, voted for the expenses of the Commission to prevent the Oak in Slaves. £3,701 were voted for the Civil Establishment of the hams Islands. Mr. HUME contended that the Colonies should pay their own charges. Mr. GOULBU RN said, that all was required for salaries to 0 &Kers in the Colony —none were paid there for duing nothing, but many were inadequately paid: The following sums were then voted in ,succession: £6OO for Dominica. £3,120 for Prince Edward's £lO,BOO for Upper Canada.. Island. £13,593 for Nova Scotia. £4978 for Newfoundland. £6,757 for New Brunswick. £17,081 for New South Wales. £2,285 tot Cane Breton. £22,361 for Sierra Leime. A suit of 1:22i000, to*ards defraying the expenses . _ p H ots - Mthhailt, SirroixoKE sed at . • •- 1. Y O KE said, - he inderittisid thit E6OO, tiOd hid been already expended' ri this Penitentiary, of: which he very Much doubted th'i policy. It itai 'now turned into a manpfattory, whith, In the pre: sent state of the pkiputation of the cotintry; only deprived the honest poor of work ; so that the Peni: tentiary supplied the Poor-hotises, as the Poor-houses supplied the Penitentiary. With all this expenditures would any one say that there would be sit penitents? who, according to this rate, would be ptoduced at £lOO,OOO per penitent ! This was rather a high price to pay for penitence. Mhe was about toluote history on the subject, he vshoidd quote a Monarch who was supposed to know as much about the fair set as any King, ancient or modern-;--he meant Solomon! -1-(A laugh).—Solomon said,'. that a Virtuous woman was above rubies ;"this was. to be sure, in favour of such an expenditure—(Laughter).—He under stood that the penitents from Newgate were ruined at the Penitentiary—that Mrs. Fry's penitents were quite done up at Millbauk !—(A.langh).—This put 'him in mind of a Lady, who, having been robbed by her servant, said—" Bless my heart, I am asto nished at her, for she was strongly recommended to me from Newgate !"—(A laugh).—He was against this system—he was for having all criminals sent oet of the country, to let honest men live. Mr. HOLFORD said, that the aggregate etpen* of the Penitentiary had• been, up to .this time, but E 540,000. He agreed with his Honourable Friend las to the propriety of sending felons out of the court. I try ; but he thought that the same punishment should not be inflicted on tho:.e who were con s ide r ed as me riting a short period a transportation. The Honour. able Member, in reply to a question from 1111- Hume, stated, that the steam-engine which was employed in pumping up water for the use of the inhabitants of the prison, had been abandoned. Mr. LOCKHART wished to know how many pe nitents this Penitentiary, which cost 4.300,000, of which the interest was 1:25,000, would turn out yearly? Mr. HOLFORD said the prison now contained about 400, and he hoped this time next year it would have 700!—(A lough)r—Gentlemen must know that there were many more convicts than that number, and that it was better for them that they should be there than in any other prison. It was calculated, when completed, to hold 1,000. They had.sent out thirty persons, of whom he expected that not one would ever return to a p: icon: Mr. LOCKHART said, he was afraid that if the bill of fare of the honest poor who had been driven into Lambeth Workhouse, for instaccei by the pres sure of the times and of taxation, were compared with that of these persons who were imprisoned for their crimes,. the comparison would be much to the ad. vantage of the latter. These convicts had each a se parate soom, fared well, had a physician for their bodies, and a priest for their souls !—( Hear). • Mr. BENNETT-said, it was impossible for him to listen in silence to the scoffing manner in which the Hon. Gentleman spoke of the efforts for the reforms• . tion of criminals. He was not a friend to the pannier+ ing of prisoners, but it was necessary that they should have enough to support life. When the Hon. Gen. .• Tiernan, too, said they had a physician for their bodies 'and a priest for their souls, did he mean to say that no attention should be paid to their health or to their • morals? He allowed that the plan had been bad, as far as expense was concerned—that were they to be.. gin again, much expense would probably have been avoided ; but he entered his protest against the tone which had been taken respecting It. Mr. LOCKHART disclaimed any intention of treating the Institution in question with contumely ; but•he thought he was bound to express his disappro. bation of a system which he believed was not founded upon proper principles. He did not think that such Institutions were calculated to cure the growth of crime. Some other mode of arriving at this most vital object ought to be adopted—a preventiye Mr. RICARDO thought that some improvement might take place in the system observed iii prisons, so far . as respected the admission of persons who Might see that the p: isomers were properly treated. Mr. HOLFORD was sure, that the indiscriminate admission of persons to the prisons could not be con templated. -He never knew that persons having the proper authority from the Secs etary of State, were refused access to any part of the prison. Mr. RICARDO would say for himself, that he was denied admittance-at this prison. Mr. BENNETT thought it justice to state, that he never applied for authority to be admitted into this or other prisons, without experiencing imme diate and polite attention.—Resolution agreed to. Mr. ARBUTHNOT said, he had next to move for a grant towards defraying the expenses of per fecting the Caledonian Canal - . He said, according to the Estimates, the sum of £60,600 would fully complete this great work. Of that sum, however, he would now only ask a grant 4.05,000. Lord ALTHORPE begged to remind the Con. mittee, that the year before last a pledge had been given that no more than £25,000 would be asked for the completing this work. Sir H. PARNELL thought it best to have the whole sum voted at once, and let the work be Con cluded. He thought it a work executed with great skill and success, and would prove one of great wt. tionahutility. Mr. ARBUTHNOT was willing to assent to th e suggestion of having the whole sum voted axon e ., •.: Mr. HUME agreed to the course suggested, but he had his apprehensions that•this would not bethe last sum applied for. He did not think that the work would ever prove useful to the country. Lord BINNING hoped his Right Hon. Friend Would not pledge himself that this would be the hut sum. Mr. ARBUTHNOT said he would withdraw the Resolution upon this understanding.---Resolution withdrawn.—Thelol:owing sums were then vote d : _ _ . 483,675 for defraying the mitoses of Maintalnitrg and Em ploying Convicu at home. ,6,164 for defraying the expenses of Maintaining Criminal Lunatics. /I,W° for defraying the charges of. Prosecutions for For. ge7, Scc. The Resolution for a vote of £40,000 to defray the Law Charges of the year being puz, -c. • . Mr. D. W. HARVEY asked how the expose this department could have increased from L 20,00% which it was at last year, to double that sum, at which it was now estimated ? Mr. ARBUTHNOT said, that this was easily ac- u .~ I