Star. — London, England, 1820-05-27 00:00:00

same principle held good with respect to the ports of all other nations. He only desired that this princi ple should be limited in its operation. It would, at the same time, be right to except colonial produce, for if there was no restriction, other countries Might take the trade to the colonies cut of the handX of ship-onners,• with whom they could bi ens bi,Nl to enter into prejudicial eumpetition. The third point to be considered was, the entire freedom of the transit trade, with w hich the bonding system was connected. It was of the greatest importance that every temptation should be held out to induce fo reign merchants to bring into this country the pro duce of their own. Ile wished to see England the grand mart or depot of the produce of the world, o: - .e to which the vessels of the different nations might resort with their cargoes, and find a ready and advantageous ,i:arket. Ile was aware that in suggesting the expedience of acting upon this prin ciple, he was. trenching on considerations of great and peculiar interest, and among those branches of commerce which required particular protection, there was one which ought to be guarded with jealous at tention. The linen trade of Ireland was that branch ; yet lie thought that some modification ought to take, place in the transit duty with regard to it, which during the war was so high as 15 per tent. A re laxation of this duty would be productive of very great advantage ; and it was a fact, that the linen tiacle . of Ireland had been in a more prosperous state before it was imposed. Though it was , necessary in time of war, when British merchants were prevented from going on the Continent to make up their assort ments, it could have no beneficial effect now that the nations of Europe were at peace, and when the Bri tish manufacturer might proceed to Germany or Hol land, and make up his assortments without any in- , tcrruption. Indeed it appeared to him, that so far from iti producing any good effect,• it musti tend, on, the contrary, to drive our own manufacturers out of . the country. This was a subject to which he begged earnestly to call their Lordships attention, with the view of investigating all the circumstances connected with it. He now came to a subject upon which the greatest difference and difficulty existed ; the duties on imports from the northern countries of Europe. When adverting to the high duty on timber, it was impossible for him not to remind their Lordships that it had not been adopted as pal t cf a permanent system of colonial or shipping policy. No pledge. of that nature had been given, either to the colonies or the ship-owners. It had been adopted only from temporary considerations of increasing the Revenue, and was subject to have been revised in March last. —Vire Earl of HAnnowny here said, " March Stett.".3—The - Marquis of LANSDOWN proceeded. The difference was immaterial; it did not in the slightest agree affect the general question. It was to be ad mitted, that-the owners of the ships conveying tim ber from Canada were interested in the continuance of tile present duties, and it was very natural that thoy should regard with jealousy any proposition for Modifying or abolishing them. They were, he be lieved, a very respectable body of men, and it•was tight that-their interests should be attended to, se ftr as was compatible with the general welfare of the 'Nation ; nor should he, in any measure of for th* extension, desire to see those instances lost sight af,.tti which there ought to be a departure from the Valid principle in favour of navigation in British vtsstls. It was one thing to purchase a valuable Consideration, and another to consent to the mode of perchasing it—(Hear, Hear.) The very worst of all duties was that which was imposed on the raw 7 ittterial, and therefore he decidedly objected to the impost on timber. The grounds upon which ship &liners sought the continuance of this duty were the 'host absurd imaginable. They demanded a mono poly, because the timber they imported was at a greater distance, and of a much inferior quality to that imported from the North of Europe; and they did this in defiance of all established rules of com rtieree, which favoured importation from that coun try where the article was best and cheapest, rather than from that country which was remote, and where the article was dear and bad. And upon what arti cle was this tax imposed ? Not upon an article of luxury, which, perhaps, might be subjected to it with less prejudice to the commenity ; but upon the raw material of our houses,-our bridges, and other struc tures, while even the very ship-owners who called for the continuance of it must be affected by its ope ration. If the grounds upon which this monopoly was claimed were admitted, why ought not a tax to tae imposed on the importation of cotton from the East Indies, the voyage being three times as long as that to America ? The ship-owners said, that if they had been . put in possession of the whole of the tim ter trade to the Baltic, it would amount to only half of what was now imported from Canada. This, how ever, was to lose sight of every p'rinciple of economy, for the purpose of maintaining a particular interest. The Baltic timber trade had, he understood, been' originally cerried on in Russia and Prussia in British vessels, particularly in the latter country. If the; article was not immediately paid for in British pro duce, it was afterwards in articles of British mans-, facture which were sold at the fair of Leipsic, and' other fairs, where the purchasers of British goods were chiefly from the North of Europe. But he did not insist on the paint, as to whether the article was; .paid for oT not in the produce of the country, as iii did not affect the merits of the case. They had ea-1 -dray overlooked the consideration, thatthe certainty of procuring . 2 cheaper and better material must ne-; cessarily excite increased temptation for the employ meet of British vessels. There ought certainly to be a greater degree of freedom than at present exist ed, In order to induce British merchants to acquiescel in the measure, leaving, at the soma time to - Canada In supply that species of timber which is peculiar to "the country, and cannot be had with equal advan-, - tagefrom any other; and to the Northern Countrie s to furnish that species which is acknowledged to be of a superior qoality. The duty - on timber imported 'from Canada in the course of the last year amounted tY) 2..406,000, and the port of *London alone paid 1:100,000 for the monopoly - -4 Hear, hear!)—There wits another point which he wished to bring under -Conskleration : it was with regard to the duty paid Oil French wines, which, in 1511, amounted to £143, while the duty on Spanish 'andfortugnese wines was Only 1:95. The produce of 'this duty fell off in the course of the last year £220,000, and he thought that the French Goyerucaent were not so indifferent to the interests of the people at that country, as net to consent to some rneasdie for alliewirtg French ' vibes to 'be exported upon the same tin* as - those of other countries. But even if no such atrangement took place, still while *e imported set from France we must necessarily increase Mu- exports.- Could there be any reduction of our exports by importing bullion ?—Certainly not, for the evil, if such it was considered, would correct itself. There wits no dif ference whatever whether we exported our-manufac tures in the first instance, and imported bullion, and then exported that in payment for the wines we re ceived; in either case, our exports could not be affected. He thought, however, that in seeking to reduce the duty on French wines, the consent of Portugal would be necessary. If a . reduction was effected, the conse quence would be an increase of Revenue and of French wines. In the treaty which had been renewed with Portugal in 1810, the former duty was conti nued for the present on wines and woollens, being the principal articles of trade between the two coun tries. It was necessary, in order to meet the compe tition of other tiations, that some change should be made in the existing system. What he bad said of wines would equally apply to silks imported from France, and he should suggest a large Parliamentary grant as a remuneration for any loss that a poor but meritoriouk class of persons might sustain by a mea sure of great national advantage. He had now gone through the whole of the leading circumstances con nected with our European policy, and while he con sidered the shipping in all its relations, it was impos sible for him not to observe, that we were excluded from one of the largest portions of the globe by im politic regulations. The British merchant was almost totally shut out from Asia and the numerous islands connected with it. He found himself excluded from the very moment after he doubled Cape Horn—not from the rude or forbidding aspect of nature, for there were bays, ports, and harbours in abundance, and most of them commodious—not from any indis position to trade on the part of the inhabitants, for they were all favourable to it—not from any fault of the seasons, for there were monsoons and other winds which nature seemed to have destined "to promote the success of commerce. No, he was excluded only by restrictive statutes. • which were most prejudicial in their effects; and he found that he could not pro. ceed without being provided with a license. From the Tea trade he was entivelfprohibited, and he found himself confined within the circle of the East India Company's Chatter. He meant not the slight est disrespect to that respectable Corporation, for it was very natural that monopolists should be actuated by principles of prejudice and jealousy, with regard to those who might wish to participate in the same Avantages. Yet he did not think it correct in the East India Company to prevent others from doing that which the/ did not .do themselves. The first consideration with them was, the size of the ships ; and all smaller vessels were entirely excluded, as they might be better employed upon adventures to remote and unfrequented regions than larger ones, which would subject the owners to too great a risk of capi tal, without a sufficient prospect of profit. The po pulation in the various Eastern Islands, amounted to seventy millions of inhabitants, yet, in consequence bf the system of exclusion, there was • scarcely any commerce whatever with these people. [The Noble Marquis here read an extract from a pus lication respecting the Islands in the Indian Archi pelago, which described them as highly favourable to trade, from their abundant resources, though they were less known by the inhabitants of the neighbour ing Continent, than if they had been in a different climate.}—He next adverted to the Opinions advan ced upon the same subject by Sir Stamford Raffles, in his account of Sumatra, and contended, that an in tercourse with those distant regions ought to be pro moted. In reference to the principle of encouraging the spirit of free trade, he instanced a story by Dr. Franklin, whose wife having sent a cap to the daugh ter of a ship-owner, from their residence at May Town, in America, caused a• general demand for such caps among all the young girls in that part of the United States, who sent their mittens for sale to Philadelphia, in order to purchase them.—The Noble Marquis said, a All 1 desire is, give but fair scope to the genius , )f . this maritime country—let vs proceed to the inquiry with the best spirit, arid bring to the question the best possible information our resources will supply, 'and there is little doubt the House will de its duty to the Public, by the following up a prin ciple to which i, for one, anticipate scarcely a pos sibility of any opposition."—(Hear, item.)—The Noble Marquis concluded by moving, " That a Select Committee be appointed to consider the state of out Foreign Trade, and report' what means were in our power for improviog and extending it;" The Earl of LIVERPOOL new Lose. He said hi had peculiar satisfaction in rising after the able and candid speech, with which the Noble Marquis who had just sat down had introduced his Motion. He felt thorough gratification in being able to agree in the general principle upon which that motion was founded, though he did not attach the same import ance to some Of the circumstances urged in support of it, as the Noble Marquis. He was — not, however, disposed by any means to oppose it, limited as it 'very properly was to the sole consideration of our Foreign Trade. He thought the Noble Marquis had acted most judiciously in having so limited it, for bad he done otherwise, and extended it to general relations of commerce, it would, from its compre hensive character, include too wide a range of con •llicting interests, and the advantage of the country would either be neglected altogether for the present, `or postponed to a distant and doubtful period. Yet at the sante time while he gave the Noble Marquis every credit for the manner in which he brought this 'subject before their Lordships, he could not still think it possible that it could be fairly discussed without some reference to our internal and domestic 'relations. Por, however important the interest of our foreign trade certainly 'was, he would still say that he should be 'only deceiving the House were he to admit that it was in any respect the most important interest to the country. When he looked at the nu merous Petitions Which were pouting in from all quarters, and from an-classes of those who were con nected 'with the Agriculture and Manufactures of the Country, he could not but feel it to be his duty to state the reasons, why, in the present instance he was not in favour of a more extended inqtiry. He en tirely aßreed with the Noble Marquis that there was no opinion so unfortunate as that there existed in the ft tervits atioss *Jo be i setntere interests, and taLthiethe at each ot2~er. variance Thi a was a Most erroneous as *ell as dangerous 001. ai w nion, and he agreed *kit the Noble, Marquis that the Aar'cultural, the Manufacturing, and the Commer cial Interests were cOmpletely blended, the strength of the one wan the strength of the other, and the weakness of the one was the weakness of the other. They ought, therefore, never to be represented as distinct. Agriculture, which he considered the basis, of our national strength, would not be what it was, nor would those who made fortunes by it have ' amassed immense wealth; bad it not been for com- 1 merce and manufactures, which fostered and sup ported it. Therefore he should say. that. neither could be served by the exclusion of the other. The first point to be considered was, what the actual state of our foreign and internal trade was, from authentic documents? Next, to examine minutely the causes of our distress, and see if any or what remedy can be applied to that distress. But there was one par ticular in which he also agreed with the Noble Mar quis, namely, that it was more material to decide what they would not do than what they would do. The country would not settle down till the public mind was set at rest upon this subject. With regard to this particular consideratioh, the first point to be decided was with regard to the state of our internal trade, in order to ascertain whether the distress which prevailed - resulted from any diminution in the con sumption of the country, or from a falling off in our foreign trade ? It appeared quite certain that the dis tress now existing was not the consequence of dimi nished consumption in the principal articles of our domestic trade. As an instance of the fact, he should mention wine, an article noticed by the Noble Mar quis, and should consider it rather in relation to quantity than to value, the standard of comparison which he should ma ke also with regard to other articles, and from which it would be seen that no decrease whatever had taken place. He had now to submit a specification of different articles, with the average price for the last four years,- corn paring the average price ie the three- years 1816, 1817, and 1818, -with the average price in 1819.-- , The average consumption in each year, for thethree years mentioned, was £21,650,870; and the con sumption, from the sth of April, 181-9, to the sth of April, 1820, was £22,332,117. The average consumption of Coffee for the three years named was £7,523,583, and in the last year £7,858,856, leav ing a small diminution. The average consumption of Tobacco for three years, was £11,967,711 • in the last year £11,175,917, leaving a considerable dimi nution. In Malt, the average consumption for three years amounted to £22,130,278 ; last year the gross amount was £23.971,387, shewing an increase of £1,700,000. In Spirits the average consumption for three.years, was 1;5,173,755 ; last year it was' £4,801,937, shewing a decrease of £300,000, which, however, was made up by there having been a greater consumption of foreign spirits last year. The next calculation was with respect to the produce of arti cles of internal-trade. The produce of our Exports in 1318, was £48,908,703 ; in 1819, 07,939406 r shewing a falling off of £11,000,000. In the year 1818, however, extraordinary efforts had been made, and many speculations -undertaken. The average amount of produce for three years, was 48,161,7561. in the last year there had been a falling off of £11,200,000. He should now consider what was the state of our trade before the last war, and during that period of it when our commerce was in the most flourishing condition. In the year 1792, when we had the largest exports of any year before the war, the value of them was L 24,905,200; and in 1806 the value was £25,000,000 ; in 1807, £27,000,000 ; in 1808, E 26,000,000; in 1810, E 35,000,000; and in 1811, £34,930,000 ; so that last year, though there was a diminution of £11,200,000, yet there was an increase as compared with the official value in the year when our exports were the greatest during a time of peace. In the year 1818, the amount of Cotton exported was 1M,4112,000 ; inahe last year, it was little more than £1,000,000. He should now state the other articles in which there had been a falling off. In the European trade in Refined Sugars, there had been, as compared with the three preceding years, a falling off of 41,200,000, but the great diminu tion was in the trade with the United States of Ame rica. In Cutlery and Hardware, the average amount of exports, for the last three years, was L 1334,000; in the last year, £436,000. The average amount of exports in Woollens to that country, for three years, was £3,100,000; in the last year, £1,703,000, shew ing a falling off in the total average of the different articles of £3,000,000. The Noble Earl then pro ceeded to shew that distress was not confined to England only, but also prevailed to as great a degree in America, which was the natural consequence of the extraordinary efforts she had made during the late European war—efforts that had raised her to an unnatural state of prosperity, which ended in her present difficulties. He deprecated the idea of im puting the embarrassments of the country to tithes, taxation, or the poor laws, instead of ascribing them to the long and portentous war we had engaged in, and which had so detrimental an effect on our finances.— With respect to the Corn Bill, he observed, that he had supported it in 1815, when it was introduced, and he did so under the conviction that the Agri cultural Interest required some legislative protection. It was necessary at the time that Parliament should come to an express determination with regard to it ; and if; contrary to his opinion, they had refused to accede to the measure till after the experience of two or three years, as had been proposed, he should have said that they ought to decide upon not granting it at all. Ile thought the principles of the laws were not to be departed from, to accoramodate every change of circumstances. It was a means of aggra-. eating the distresses of the country thus continually to be agitating the questions affecting the Agricul tural Interests. Let the tenant and landlord, let the buyer and seller adjust their relations in the best way they couhi, but the country should be taught to look upon the principle of the law as undeviating.— Because he looked upon the Corn Bill as calculated to recognize these principles in a more fixed way, he gave it his support, and its rejection by Parliament had not made him change his mind as to the extent of its influence in working that -e ff ect. He always looked epon that Bill as equitable in principle, though an objection was taken to it as too refined. Its ob ject, if he understood it rightly, was ro protect the Agricultural Interest against the low prices of gr K at whia the Wirier could not raise the commodity ; end, on the other band, to allow the Public en open Market when prices should rise. But, be asked, l ithat Would be the effect of a fixed protecting duty ? If the cony was small, it would serve as no protec tion at all; if large, its effects, as toss ards the Pub lic, would be most prejudicial in times of distress.— The House would recollect that the pi ice, in the Corn Bill, was fixed at 80s.—this the opponents of the Lill contended would be the minim:ter, but be (Lord Li verpool), and the supporters of the Bill, argued that, it would be the methmum price. In recurring to the returns of the prices of wheat in the years between the sth of January, 1515, and sth of January, 1815, it would be found that wheat did net average more than 78s. sd. a quarter, and that oats did not average more than 28s. He also thought if any frauds were committed in those departments which regulated the importation of foreign corn, they were imputable to the persons appointed, and not to the laws.— The present laws, if rightly put in force, were suf ficient to correct these frauds, without having recourse to new ones. He did not think the great principle of averages should be departed from ; and it was a fallacy to suppose that leaving out the Welsh Coun ties would be favourable to the Agricultural Interests of this country, for the contrary would be the effect. There was also another point upon which he would touch, though not immediately connected with the question of Agriculture, tharWas, the Currency. He was clearly of opinion that the principles laid down last Session should not be depaited.from. It was said that distress resulted from it, hut he contended its in fluence was but partial. In viewing a great question no change should be made from the circumstance of its affecting ode branch of the community. Things were not worse now than in 1515, when the price of corn was lower thin it was now, end the price of gold was £4.45. Perhaps the arrangement of last Session was not-so perfect as it might be, but Pailiz mem had done the thing, and they couldzot retrace their steps without danger. He had supported the Bank Restriction through the war,- from a persuasion ,that this country could never have got through- the war without it. But at the return of peace he said that the country should return to its ancient system of metallic currency. Even in war it had its evils mixed up with,good, but in peace it would only produce evils. It would tend to produce fictitious capi tals. There might be a spew of trade, and the manu facturers and mechanics he again at work; but the alarin which he felt, and several well-informed mea felt the same, was, that the country would be subject to these revulsions every two or three years. Enterprise and speculation would be going on in the meantime, which, aided by the perfection of machi nery, would soon glut the markets, and at the same time create this fictitious capital. As, therefore, he deprecated any alteration in the Corn Laws, for the same reason 'he would advise no alteration in the Currency. .The grand principle which he wished their Lordships not to lose sight of, was—that the country and the whole world should feel that they were acting upon a fixed system, and that they were determined not to be tampering with their laws, to suit every possible circumstance which might arise. He would again recommend not to alter general principles because of some local distress. Having now endeavoured to answer the principles of the pro position made by the Noble Marquis, he would coma more immediately to his facts. With regard to the Corn Laws, he had already stated, that difficulties lay in the way, which the advocates of this measure were certainly not aware of. He must declare, he felt convinced, that though some of them opposed .the Corn Bill in 1816, yet they were, unwilling to change the present system ; and he was convinced they were equally enwilling to do away those • pro tecting duties which %vele afforded to manufactures here in a greater extent than in any other country in the world. It was a fallacy to suppose that a free trade could be given. Supposing the law for the protection of cotton was repealed, and the duties on wool were taken off, it would not affect these ar ticles. As to the two others, silk and linen, the first was purely artificial in this country, and alive trade would put an end to it altogether—(Hear, hear). — 'This was a manufacture which belonged more pro• perly to France, who, if she sent silk, took our cot tons in return ; therefore, viewing it with the num bers engaged in it, he could not help looking upon a continuance of protection as a lesser evil than giving a free trade. What would be the effect as regarding Ireland, he asked, if the duties on foreign linens were taken off? Looking to the state of that country, he was inclined to regret that a protection had been extended there, but now that the thing was done, even if wrong, it could not be undone, for the linen trade was so mixed up with the population 'and peace of the country, that it would be most impo litic to do it away—(Hear, hea6.—ln viewing our foreign relations, it would be wEll to see if protect ing duties could not be substituted for prohibitions. One forbade the possession of the thing entirely, but as there were people dispoied to have it at any price, there was thus a temptation to elude the law alto gether. He wished to see this temptation taken away, and a protecting duty substituted in its stead. With regard to other propositions of the Noble Mar quis, some of them had been already taken up by the Executive Government. One was already it progress, and if it should turn cut that nothing could be done, it would at least he satisfactory to all parties to make the inquiry—(Hear, hear, hear). The next point to which he would allude, was the proposition for the extension of the warehousing .sys tem. • He agreed entirely-with the Noble Marquis in the view which he took. of this subject. The plan, suggested, formed part of the policy of Mr. Pitt, who wislied to make this country the emporium of the world. Since that tiuie ,it *had been _growing gradually, and at this day made no inconsiderable. branch of the Revenue, collected with greater Each, lity. As to the other proposition respecting the Than-. sit Dutiet, be also concurred with the Noble Mar quis. . The objection which was raised to this in tuna of war, he thought now entirely removed by the peace; and he saw no ham why the ships*of this country should not have the same advantages, in car-. tying goods from one place to another,ns the ships of other nations. As to the duties on timber, he ap prehended the Noble Marquis was a littlsonistaken in his view of - it. The history of the &ties upon timber was shortly this. In 18014 when this country was slnit out from the Continent. and there was great distress in ccaseqt,cacc, Croverament oreLcd A 1. e e n d t . i. e e C e• e $ e r r t f. r r S