Star. — London, England, 1812-12-12 00:00:00

~~ , 1 _ IitRLI4MENTARrnioceEpINGs. HOUSE OP LORDS, DECEMBER 11. Sir W. Johnstone, Bart. of Hilton, o. Noel, Tempts*, and Ca Bankers, in London, a Scots Appeal. Counsel having been fully he rd on this cause, via. Mews. Adana and Horner i for the Appellant ' Sir S. Rowdily and Mr. Wingfield , for the Re spondent, and Mr. Adam on behalf of the Appellant in Mils The LORD CHANCELLOR, after a short view pf the culler merits pf the case, moved their Lordships to idlbun decree Of the ce‘trt below, with £2OO costs, which was itocordintki• It was ordered, on the motto) of Lori WALS;WCHIAM, that So Reports be received from the ,judges on Petition for Private Bills. after Tuesday, the 9th day of April neat. Their Lordships resolved into a Committee on the Insolvent Debtors' Amendment Bill, and some Amendments, chiefly of a verbal nature, were made on the suggestion of Lord Ex.csr so aovon. The Report was ordered to be received to-morrow. The Sugar Brewery Big, and the Starch Manufacture Bill, were brought up from the Commons by Mr. Lointusrxon &Ad other Members, and severally read # Ant time.—Adlourned. •=1.•••=m1IPIP HOUSE OF COMMONS. Mr. Hise, from the Book of England, presented various ac counts of the Bank-note and Tokens in circulatioo.—Ordered to Ile on the Table. Mr. RIIIINSON brought la the West Indk Exportation hi slenwity Blll.—Read a first, and ordered to be read * second shale to-storrow. Petitions complaining of urdue returns for Stunford and Bristol, were presented, and ordered to be taken into eo9tddirn• tion ; the former on Tuesday, 23d February * the *ter on Thursday, 25th February. Lord CAST LIMEAO H. brought up the Bill for itaiging alma* to be bid out in the purchase of %ands to be attached to the title of Wellington.—Red a first, and ordered to be read a se-. pond time to-mogrow. On the motion of Lord CASTLZIMAGII, who intimated that there was some inaccuracy in the pill with respect to the de volving of the qprates to be so purchased in the heirs male of the Marquis of Wellington, the Prince Regent's Message oh the subject was ordered to be taken into further consideration to-morrow. Mr. LVSHIWOTON brought up the Malt and Pension Duty Bill, the teruilLons and a half Exchequer Bills Bin, the Rice Duty Bill. the Corn Distillation Prohibition Bill, and the Spa nish Red Wine Duty Substitution Bill; which were severally read a Ent, and ordered to be read a second time to-morrow. On the motion tor the second reading of tke Bill for better se curing the Duties on Malt, Mr. W. DUNDAS made a variety of observations a tending to thew the bardships which the Bill imposed on Scotland. Mr. LASCELLES and Mr.WHAR'rON maintained, that no greater liardslaiit would be sustained in consequence of this ran-. ware hi Scotland than in Yorkshire, and other English districts. The Bi wai then read a second time, and ordered to be cam. alltted on Monday. The House having resolved itself into a Conamktee of Supply, On the Motion of Mr. WHARTON, it was resolved that the gm of £1347. 19s. be granted to his Majesty for the Marshal sea Court. The House haying resumed, the Report was ordered to be .areceivad on Monday. Mr. Loattattorou brought up the Report of the bland, of Jamaica and St. Domingo Intercourse Bill, which was agreed to, and ehe Bill was ordered to be read a third tittle to-morrow. The Household Bill weut through a Committee.—To be re- Totted on Monday. Lord PALMER3I7OIII presented the Estimates for Army Ser vices, which were ordered to be printed; and his Lordship gave notice, that on Monday he would refer them to a Committee of Supply, for the purpose of proposing a Vote of . Credit;—but should defer the Debate *lithe Estimates till after the holidays. Mr. WitARTON brought in a Bill to allow a Drawback on Chocolate exported ; also a 8311 to enable the Assistant Sccretary of the Post-office to send or receive Letters free of Postage.— Read a first, and ordered to be read a second thus to-morrow. Mr. Mews's presented a Petition from the Parish of Mile *ad, for a Bill for relieving their Poor. GOLD COIN BILL. Mr. LUSHINGEON appearing at the Bar with the Report of the Gold Coin Bill, Mr. WHITBREAD said, that, not with any hope of making the Might Hon. Gentleman opposite asha med of Lis resolution,. but with a view of proposing that it should be rescinded, he would:move,.that the Clerk should read the Resolution of the House of Commons of the 14th of May, by which it was de claied, that, in die estimation of the Public, Bank. ;rotes and guineas were equivalent. The Clerk having read the Resolution, Mr. WHITBREAD observed, that the subject bad been too frequently discussed, to render it neces sary for Lim to offer any thing further to the House upon it. He should, therefore, simply take the sense of the House, without debate, and for that purpose move, that the lttsolution which had been just read be rescinded. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said e ,tbat as the Hon. Gentleman made this. motion without debate, he, without debate, would support the Resolution. At the same time, he expressed himself perfectly ready to meet the Hon. Gentleman in discussion on the subject at any time that he might ~ t hink proper, The House then divided—For Mr.. Whitbread's ' Motion, 26—Against it, 63—Majority, 37. On our re-admission to the Gallery, we found Mr. Hustrassosi on his legs. He stated, that as his opi nions on the subject then before the House were very generally known, he would not tire their patience by going at great length into the question in refe rence to the law. of the laud and the principles of justice. He was disposed to think, that ant of the walls of that House, notwithstanding the assertions of his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Vansittart) they would not be able to find any one person who would agree in the Resolution which they had just affirmed, no more than they could in the ordinary business of fife procure a guinea, all that description of coin hav ing completely disappeared. If any person could doubt that there was a depreciation of the .paper currency, he knew no better mode to convince him of the tact, than by drawing his attention to the Bill then on the table. His Right Hon. Friend argued, that the paper could not be depreciated, if tbree.con. were acceded to ; Ist, 1 hat the coin of the re alm should pass at .a current rate, to be fixed by the Sovereign Authority of the State; 2d, That the paper currency fihottld correspond with ;be d enam i.. Batton of the roue. These two principles were acted upon in all States. The first reinstituted the essen c e of money ; the second was its representative, But his sight Hon. Friend found a third conditiou neces sary to prevent the clepretiation of this representa, iivf, and which they were the labouring to effect by Arts l a w. To render the current coin and Bank pa', per eliudly valuable, a penalty i oust be in fl ict e d on iboae who dispose . of the former for 'ore than the I . ice attached' to it by the fieeel:eic Authority, or ho dispoie of the latter for len an its nomin a l rhea they caase to this tionc4lsiOn, that an if-the piper too* wai so depliehtted l _ _ iii . that - thousand pounds of it would net purchase a quarts= loaf ; yet, if by a penal law its denomination was sew cured, no depreciation whatever could be allowed to exist, He had however the admission of the R'ight Hon. Gentleman himself, that in Ireland the paper Currency was depreciated, because the guineas, in that country, were disposed of at a discount. Now, this depreciation took place in the interval between the passing of this Act, in 1811, and their renewal of it in the last Session, when it was first extended to Ireland. And could any person attempt to main., rain that this depreciation, which existed before the law was made applicable to Ireland, did sot' equally exist afterwards ? Certainly, the Act could' not produce such an effect. As a proof that the paper currency was not in that sound state which some Gentlemen contended for, he instanced the circumstance of the Treasury having, last year, sent out a quantity of Bank-notes to Canada, to pay the army and establishments in that country.— His Right Honourable Friend, he supposed, thought that these notes would be held in equal estimation with the public in Canada, as his Resolution set forth they possessed in Great Britain. Whether the wrappers in which they were enveloped, had this ce lebrated Resolution engraved on them, he could not ascertain; but, when they arrived in Canada what was their fate ? These Canadians, whose loyalty and allegiance had been so deservedly praised by the Prince Regent, in his Speech at the commencement of the. Session, not being liable to any penalty for ; 'the act, ,at once• set their own estimation on these 'notes, and disposed of them at a discount of about thirty per cent.—(Hear, hear.) Now he would ask, if the notes so transmitted then, were disposed of at a discount, could they, on being returned to this country, by the operation of the Bill then before them, be immediately restored to par ? He supported the first part of this Bill, but he never was an advocate for the principles on which it was founded. Those principles had been carried to a very great length by many individuals, in both Houses of Parliament, who seemed to think that the Bank Restriction opened a new field and system of political finance.— tie could not view it in this light—his reason for en tertaining this part of the Bill arose from a very dif ferent principle—it arose from a feeling of the neces sity of the case, from thevery alarming state in which the currency of the country now stood, occasioned by the measure of the Bank Restriction being so long continued— (Hear, Hear.) The part to which he al- i lulled was that, which to all practical purposes, ren-; dered Bank votes a legal tender—and perhaps it would have been better, if a direct proposition to le galise such tender had been made. To the second di vision of the Bill, which went to prevent the disposal, of the current Coin of the Realm for more than its legal denomination, or of Bank notes for less, lie was decidedly adverse. TLe Bill was originally intro. duced in the other House of Parliament, with views very different from those on which it had afterwards received the support of his Majesty's Ministers— Which were, to rescue the debtors throughout the country from an undue severity. The object of the, Noble Earl who proposed it was to introduce hook-, entries, which should at once supersede the necessity of Coin or of Bank notes ; and the Ministers adopted so much of the Bill as would protect the debtors, placed as they were, by the Bank Restrictions, in a most awkward situation. They interfered to the ex-. tent of preventing any creditor from insisting on that "good and legal payment" of his debt (that is, ip , current coin) which it was not in the power of the debtor to make. In originating this demand, the Noble Lord (King) had done what he certainty had -a right to do; but then, the matter came to this, that what he required every other 'creditor in the country had an equal right to demand—and he had the au-, thurity of the Noble Lord himself for saying, that this would be a most unjustifiable proceeding. In the notice to his tenants, he spoke only of leases exe. cuted before the passing of the Bank Restriction Act; and therefore allowed that those whose rents were raised, in consequence of the depreciation of paper, by that Act, and who were paid through that depre ciated medium, ought not to be called on for any ad dition. If the system had been pursued, the man who had deposited £lOOO in notes with his Banker in the morning, might be called on in an hour to pay in cash ; and, by this means many persons would be placed at the mercy of those who entertained malice against them. This was a state in which the country could not be left—and he was surprised that Gentle men should have opposed the whole Bill, as utterly unnecessary. On that ground alone, because lie clearly saw the necessity, did he approve of the first 'part of the Bill. But there were many public cre ditors who had advanced hundreds of millions for the service of thee country, and who, since the Bank Re striction, were placed in the same situation with every individual in the kingdom, receiving their di• vidends in Bank notes ; and he would ask, was it pos. sible that those who had trusted to the honour and faith of the public, should be left in so disadvantageous a situation? Parliament, it was true, might not have interfered, but it would have been most un justifiable, and would have placed the country in a state of danger. If they had not passed the first part of this Bill, which protected the debtor, they must have repealed the law, which prevented the public creditor from receiving his dividend in .Bank notes, and Bauk notes only ; or, in other words, they must have. opened the Bank—it was a matter of option, and he supported that course which -seemed least likely to create mischief; but, in giving 'that support, be was notinfluenced by any approba. Lion of the principles on which the Bill was founded; y were contrary to the laW of the country, and tould only be justified by necessity. The second part of the Bill was no less a violation of the princi .ples of law and justice, without being founded on any necessity whatever.- It had an effect the very -1114 reverse of what was intended by those who supported it. Let the House look to the experience of the last 2 . 15 mon th s. Did this part of the Bill effect th at which was contemplated ? Did it occasion guineas to pass corrent at their current rate ? Can any gen tleman state, an lastance of one being passed at the ;ate established by the King's Proclamation I On .the contrary, it had driven all the guineas, crowns, half-crowns,- and even shillings (except those which Isere very 'much debased) out of circulation. It was clear that it die ! i?,ot preclude individnal,s from dis posing of their gutu,eas at the highest price they c o u ld f rocnre. ple - 4,1y was evaded every day ; and the *l3, ease in Which it eotild pena l was, where per- , tons were seduced by those who were particularly employed for the purpose, and then prosecuted, and involved in the penalties of the Act, through the cun ning of others.—(Hear, bear).—Some convictions of shat kind, he believed, had taken place. It was diesofore most evident, that any man; to spite of this law, might sell his guineas, or c rown - pieces, for What he supposed they were worth, without any fear of detection. Some millions of guineas had been exported to France and other countries, since the first introduction of the Bill—not for want of exer tions to prevent such exportation, but because it was as impossible to execute this law, as that against melting down the coin of the realm. The ancient law of the country prohibited, most Ineffectively, the melting down or exporting the current coin—and now they superadded to these, a law, the direct operation of which was, to give a premium of 25 per cent. to (every man disposed to export or melt dawn the me , tallic currency. For, if guineas disposed of in i France procured a return on England of 25 per cent. more than they would produce here, it must act as a temptation to those possessing that species of coin, to send them abroad ' • and, on the other hand, if the guineas were melted down, the owner would realise an equal profit for his bar of gold.—lf this law did not cause exportation; there was but one other effect tat could be produced by it—that of inducing people to hoard their gold. This certainly could - not be looked upon as an advantage—it was, on the con trary, a very great evil, and was so denominated by every writer on political economy. At the present moment, it was an evil of more than ordinary mag. nitude, when the Government were endeavouring to procure those supplies of bullion which were ne cessary for the army in the Peninsula, and the want of which had operated not only to the general dis advantage of our forces there, but had occasioned great difficulties to many of the officers employed on that service. Yet, at such a moment, they were enacting a law, which must induce men either to hoard their gold, or to send it out of the country.— He never heard any ground of necessity alledged for this part of the Bill. Perhaps it was intended to support his Right Hon. Friend's third Resolution ; or to prevent two prices in the sale of articles.— Now, would there be any great evil, if there were two prices ? For his own part, he knew of none.— Two prices existed in this country in former times : for instance, in the reign of King William, when, in consequence of the debasement of the silver. currency (the measure, at that period, of all the commodities of life) the golden currency was raised to a greater value, in reference to that debasement. Guineas were not then tied down to one price, but rose with the depreciation of silver ; and two prices (not in the common acceptation of the word) took - place—that is, the silver coin having been debased, a guinea would procure a greater quantity of goods than 22 of those inferior shillings. In the same way, before the passing of this Bill, every thing was measured in Ireland by the standard of guineas, which were•ae a premium, while notes were at discount—of course, a purchaser- with gold procured more goods than he who tendered a nominal sum in paper. And it could not be denied, that the moment the Legislature smade Bank -notes, as they had virtually done, a legal tender, the gold and good silver disappeared ;—and i guineas were now, like foreign coins, measured by their intrinsic, not their stipulated value. The Ho; nourable Gentleman then adverted to the Portuguese paper, which he admitted was at a discount ; but, as !no Legislative protection was afforded to it, as was the case here, the metallic currency of that country had not vanished like ours. And this enabled us to provide, though inadequately, for the wants of our army in the Peninsula. For all the reasons he had stated, and because it appeared to him that the, se cond part of the Bill was not founded on any neces sity, and only encouraged the exportation of our coin, he thought the House should confine themselves to the provisions l.y which the public creditor, who was compelled to take Bank -notes, was protected—and by which, relief was also afforded to the great body of debtors throughout the country. Mr. ROSE said he had not heard that any Bank notes had been sent to Canada. If there had, how ever, he was at a loss to conceive how they could have been depreciated 30 per cent. since they cer tainly were as good, and better, than private bills, ► being payable at sight, and certainly security supe rior to any private bills. The Right Hon. Gentle man then adverted to what had been said of the Bank renewing its cash payments, and contended, that an attempt at such a measure would be ruinous under the present circumstances, since it would be impossible to procure cash to pay with. It was ridi culous to talk of coining geld. Whilst gold conti nued so much above the Mint price, no addition could be made to the coin in' circulation. Guineas might be coined, but they would no sooner issue from the Mint than they would find their way to the melt ing-pot. His Hon. Friend had said no harm could arise from there being two prices. He (Mr. Rose) foresaw the greatest inconvenience which would arise from such a circumstance, since the public rreditor,• who was under the necessity of receiving the note for 120 s. might be obliged to pay it away for 18s. 16s. or 15s. according to the price of gold. With respect to i the gold going out of the kingdom, he (Mr. Rose) , did not conceive it was sent out by the fraudulent trader, but rather, that its being sent out of the king dom arose principally from the balance of trade be ing generally against us. The Right Hon. Gentle- ' then took a review of the state of the exchange and the issue of Bank-paper at different periods, and from it contended that the issue of Bank-paper had no effect whatever on the state of exchange or the price of bullion. _The effect of the present Bill cer tainly could not be to force gold out of the country, although it might have little to do with keeping it in.' It would, however, in his opinion, prevent the evil of two prices, and therefore it should have his support. Mr. PRESTON supported. the Bill, and contend ed, that the price of land and its productions had kept ~ pare with the rise in the price of bullion. A fixed standard was absolutely necessary ; and he saw no impropriety in taking the Bank -notes, as such, at a standard, as no depreciation in their value had been found in contracts, nor in any of the , purposes of; the Inland trade. Mr. PRONtIEROE took notice of the conduct of Lord King, s calling on his tenants to pay-their rent in guineas # and observed, that his condAet made it nt'Assary to re a Bill like this, because it was the .soc.uilth,lhidoelesetree2luld;:w:tinhheacatratdar.rwated v : G a nef t o or;noy u rr tw g litddpcesioaainPrTrcetw a i t i iit duty of the Legislature to the country, than whom there was not a aloie a tter ;. ing set of men, nor any men who more hardly their income ; and he never could consent to see thee reduced to the condition of West India slaves, whi t e would be the case, it their happiness were to dew on the caprice of any landlord, who might ha • re Itia his power to seize their goods and • ' imprison &it p sons. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUEjt spoke in explanation. Mr. WHITBREAD said, the Right Hon. Gat. was Human e ao; m su blwadun. wrong; bo hee g l , m 1; had received a letter from Bath, which sta t ed , t a l i potatoes In the saco vs. Circulation, i s nwi o ed: sold becauseero t f ea o d ,r, ti vicgwa predicament. p e ot au fi se nd t4 it were Prict i ll i greater value than people dared to give fee u m " He was surprised to hear it said by a l o efted e ft dean (Mr. Preston) that a contrast grade h d ' a 11101 been insisted to be paid in gold. The contrary w• happened in many instances, and where the gold lea s not forthcoming the contract was void. A great deli had been said by different Members, throwing , blame on Lord King for having given the t o s ky Bill. That Lord King's determination to ea/w e ay e • k payment of his rents, where held on long kw ; I * the express provision of being paid in gold, h u m an made a pretence for this Bill, he believedwutrue; and in those cases of express contract, Lord Ki n ¢ had a light to insist on payments in gold. lid Lordship, however, was known to be as him* .and just a landlord as any man in the Engem ; . and it never was his intention to demand pay. pont in gold of the generality of his teniuus.—. .He had not, as some Honourable Members et; pressed it, endeavoured to distress an industrious yore. inanry ; the man he had selected happened to be ~Bank Director, who for many years had been ma ceiving a great benefit from the depreciation of papse s while Lord King had so long greatly lost by it..,, • Above all, Lord King had been most usjustly as. tacked, in imputing to him the intention of sediticie or oppression. In respect to the gold coin, lobed. information to give the Chancellor of the Exchequer —he had to tell him that the *praCtice - of idling guineas was general. He had several letters topic!. it, and this Bill induced people to hoard them * that purpose, Which completely took them out age , neral circulation , and thus they passed into the • of exportation. The Chancellor ef the Exchequer . had confessed he dared not to buy guineas, becuse this Act was against his doing io. 'He had, howeeni • letters to shew, and was desired to communicate th ee to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, by which it see peared that large quantities of guineas us et# bought in Liverl at the price of 275. and 2184. see& , and sent to London by almost every coach. Ye th e Chancellor of the Exchequer lost the benefit of !7,000 guineas, because it was against this law. He cease get them at 21s. because they are worth more; tad. for that reason our army in Portugal are to be in the greatest distress for specie, and in fact to go widget it, though in the most absolute wain of it, beeilutdl House *ill pass a law that paper and guinerateedt the same value. Whether they passed the Bill or not, he was certain gold wouldaltraya . fiat **et; and if not sold here, it would be sent abroeck Mr. HERBERT (of Kerry) said, that though he had many leases on his mates, he bad, dating th e course of a tolerable long life, been always ready to receive his rents its Bank notes, because he had evee found, that for all domestic purposes, a Bank note and a shilling were equal to a guinea. He Moulds therefore, support the Bill. Sir E. MAY supported the peseta system, as oafs ficient to support the credit and character of the cam try ; and asked Mr. Whitbread, whether all the affairs • of his counting-house did not go on just as well moo as when guineas were in circulation ? Mr. 'W. SMITH opposed the Bill, on the saall ground taken by Mr. Whitbread. He said, that . while he was in Norwich, he was told of a man who was said to be connected with Government , whores Bs. for 7s. pieces, and 265. and Vs. for a guinea.-- This man continued carrying on this traffic th erefor a considerable time. The inference he drew from it, yas, that there were two prices, for surely when th e . people of Norwich knew they could get six or seven shillings advantage by a guinea in gold, and not one farthing by a Banknote and a shilling, they would not fail to sell their guineas at such advanced price, instead of paying them away for necessary articles at the rate of 21s. If they got 275. for a guinea in. gold, they could purchase so many more articles ef necessity as amounted to the difference, which clearly proved that a Bank-note and a shilling were not only not equal to a guinea, but that there was an actual depreciation of six shilling!. Mr. STEPHEN was not prepared to say ',Whet the currency was or was not depreciated :—but how.' ever this might be, if, as was stated, there were two. rices, he thought the Bill became merely a distriba: doss of necessary justice to the public creditor. •-; Mr. GURNEY expressed his astonishment aids declaration of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that ftl and 26 shillings were equal in value. It had been said, that the extent of our commerce was the cause of the insufficiency of metallic currency; but, in his opinion, the real ground of the connection berween .the Bank of Eng Lind and the Government, and th e various measures which have been consequent thereat. up to the present time, was, the incapacity of the, latter to discharge the interest of the national debt, which had so prodigiously increased in specie. The Report was then agreed to; and,. on a awe. made . that the Bill be read a third time tamsonow ! Mr. WHITBREAD strongly objected • 7= it so soon, and that on a day when so few Preee° 64 usually attended. It was , an indecorous to bring Members down. on, a•Ainetuday, in them* part of the Session. The CHANCELLOR of th e EXCHEQUER had no objection to put off-the third leading tolmadr for Monday.—This was ordered accordingly.. Mr. WHITBREAD then mated, that theldfleil • should, at its rising , adjoatn M 0544.. The SPEAKER said, many Orders had . been fixed for to-morrow . — The motion via: Adjourned to this day., cassasseprotfarrestebeesydnc:Bytniaongiltiatliithswe,t.e yeomanry st I. au, _ N al E ct