Star. — London, England, 1812-02-18 00:00:00

.......1.1•....,... On the motion of Mr. WHARTON, the House Went hats i I Committee on the Windsor Forest Bill. Mr. SHAW LEFEVRE expressed a wish, that the considera tion of the Report of the Bill should stand over for a distant day, to give time for consideration to such Gentlemen as were inte• rested in it. This was assented to t the Bill then went through the Com mittee, and the farther consideration of the Report was fixed for this day three weeks. Mr. BROUGHAM wished to ask an Hon. Gentleman oppo site, whether a paper relating to the Droits of the Admiraty, the production of whi c h was or d ered a b uut a month ago, might be expected soon to appear. Mr. WHARTON replied, that it was now at the Bar of the House, and would he presented immediately. The paper in question was then brought up, and ordered to lie on the table, but we could not hear its title. Mr. BROUGHAM then expressed a wish to move t - , / an ac count of all the sums taken from the fund of Droits oflhe Ad miralty, and repaid to the same during the last five years. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, he was not aware of the existence of any such practice as that to which the Hon. Gentleman's motion referred. Mr. BROUGHA M stated, that according to information which be had received, a practice of this sort existed, and it was an abuse which deserved the attention of the House. Mr. M'CONOCHIE were heard at The CHANCEILOR of the EXCHEQUER did not see how Ansel for the Appellants, and Sir the term " abuse" was properly applicable to it. He had no ob ,hortly, for the Respondents. The jectiohne a count , .however, in tothe t i 0 nw of the case seemed to be, th e state l which the late Duke of Roxburh Sir TpIoMAS "?' u e UIeTON gave notice, that on Thursday se'n g night he should move for a Conimittee of the whole House, to tis executing the will, which Ras take into consideration the State of the Nation. ippe:tling parties. Mr. LUSHINGTON brought up the Report of the Corn ,HANCELLOR then addressed misers of Wads and Means. The Resolutions on the subject of funding fourteen millions of Exchequer Bills were read and He took a perspicuous view of all 1 agreed to, and Bills were ordered to be brought in pursuant to 'sad been adduced as to the situa- the same. ke of Roxburgh, at the lime the Lord PALMEi e on RSeTtrmen Esaid, t hat agreeably to the wish of :ongly inculcating this principle— sptol the consideration of the eater m pone na ns ab°PgP ; jsite, he was willing to post part of the Army Esti iodily infirmity, an individual, at mates till Friday next, but he trusted there would be no ohjec it% a will, might require the as- tion, in the mean time, to move the Supplies for the . Local Mi ' sin attendance, still if the mind Iltia, w hi c h f orme d a v e ry s mall pa r t o f t h e Army hstunates.— a particular dis'ribution of the i ear, heat.) if no proof could be adduced of The liutAe accordingly went into a Committe e o f S upp l y , i n which Lord PalMcrstone moved, that Ll(t0,000 b e voted for el,-- Ital 11021v0(4—it was just that it fraying the charge of the Local Militia f r om Dec. 25, 1811, t o is a valid instrument. His Lord- Dec. 24, 1212, inclusive. Agreed to, and th e Report order ed moving, " That the two unani- to The dis po rtbreceived o to the t H err ow ou . se of Commons' Offices Bill was taken 'it Court of Session, in S c otl an d, into further consideration ; and after receiving yeveral amend was agreed to nom. eon. runts, the Report was ordered to be received to-inCtrroW. REVERSIONS. . GENERAL SARRAZIN. ;OR called the attention of their Lord COCHItANE said, he held in his hand a tject of granting O ffi ces in rever- Petition from General Sarrazin, setting forth the in hat bad taken place in the other forthation which. that person had communicated to gttlarly be taken notice of before his Majesty's Ministers on various subjects cremected t he could net help observing, with the probable views of the enemy against this Reversion Bill in that House had country, and praying that the House would take his 4, order.) It appeared from their case into consideration, and grant him such pecuniary lect had been in agitation in the remuneration as they might deem proper. ;, and that the Bill had been The SPEAKER wished to know whether the ap e glaring proof of inconsistency placation had received the assent of his Majesty's bli ef—(hear, hear.) If that House nesters, as the Noble L 4.1 had stated enough of the with the public, to entitle itself petition to show, that as it was as application for the nation, it surely could not money, it must receive the previous assent of the such a proceeding. (Cries of order, Crown. The standing orders of the House Were possible to know the grounds on peremptory on that subject. of the House of Commons had To this no answer u as returned by the Noble Lord. lered, and the Bill rejected. The ' not be, that it was a matter o f FRAME IiItI:ANERs RILL. . Mr. Secretary RYDER moved the order of the for if it was, then to have passed day for the second reading cf the Bill for the more been but a small sacrifice to the exemplary punishing the destroyers of stocking and :ry. It might however have been lace•frame works. le bill were pa sse d i t m i g h t b e the Mr. ABE ItCROMBY observed, that the circum 7CS between the two mouses. A stances which gave rise to this measure were of a chit :mild hardly ha mentioned. If meter so calculated to give alarm to the country, sued that this circumstance, at and to prbduce the most s-rious mischief, that every would have stood in the way, a man who wished well to the tranquillity and good ns of the grawiog . of offises in order of socisty, must be extremely anxious to put my rate have been introduced.— them down as speedily and effectually as possible.— that such a bill would be brought At the same time, however deeply impressed with other of the two Houses. The the danger cif allowing the manufacturing population offices in reversion was extremely in one ci the central districts of the country to re iblic. The bill fof preventing netia in a state of riot and disturbance, in opposition !refire a measure of the highest to all the efforts of the civil and even of the military from its immediat! advantages, power, yet he could not give his support to the pre of which it might be considered sent measure, w.i.c.. 1 ; 6 was hostile to a great principle it—those that might be expected of penal law, which had rece i ve d t h e sanct i on o f hieing our imm ense expenditure. Parliament : namely, that capital punishments ought would undoubtedly have been a to be sparingly enacted. The substance of his opi a suspension ; but he was sorry nion was, that this Bill would prove insufficient to !at hopes of such a bill being at wards the object in view—and that mischief, rather it a suspension bill he himself than good, would be produced by any ineffectual in-, r one else did, and that the,sus- t rierence of the Legislature. It had been stated by . ir 10, '2O, or even 30 years. He the Right Honourable Gentleman who brought in' of the short suspensions which the present Bill, that all the efforts of the civil power lace; and if the permanent meat- backed by the aid of the milit ar y, an d a ll t h e pro - Tied, the susp ens i on at any rate clamations of rewards held out to informers, had me. . - been insufficient to put down these disturbances ; and AMERICA. that not one conviction of an offender had yet taken ID, seeing the Noble Secretary OF place, though there was already an act in our sta .ffairs in his place, rose for the tute-books, which sentenced all frame-breakers to question relative Co the existing transportation for 11 years. Had the Right Hon. rica. He merely wished tn know ; Gentleman told the House, that many convictions Isis, whether, in his judgment, i under tljett Act had already taken place, and that the in the present state of the nego- - infatuated men still proceeded in the execution of xi it improper to lay before the their nefarious purposes, then he would have been idence, or at le.tst that put of it justified in applying to Parliament for the adoption notorious to all the world. H e of severe measures; but the case was totally different. my motion for these papers, if Such had been the union, concert, and if he might Ministers of Government were so call it, good faith among these misguided people, that the production of the papers that pot one of them had been convicted under the improper. But, neverthekss,. it Act, inflicting transportation—and, if a capital pu ll the public attention was most nishment were new denounced, their motives to ad id it would depend ' upon th e here more closely together would be greas l y i ncrease d to Noble Secretary, wh et h er he , and conviction become much more difficult than it papers or not. ; had imp before. The Bill would, therefore, increase ISLEY stated in answer; that he the chances of impunity, while it diminished the pro. imands from the Prince Regent babilitiei of conviction. On these grounds he felt it fore tine House ; and as to the his duty to oppose it—and there was one other con tn, he had only to say, that if his sidetation which he wished shortly to bring under the notice of a motion kr the pa- attention of the House, namely, that these riotous lay, he' should then be prepared proceedings in the County of Nottingham, arose in . . . answer. a great degree by the decay of trade. Thi s , he ;D said, that w h et h er h e should thought, should lead the House to an anxious en ion or not, must depend upon quiry into all the measures relating to that subject, requested. Without h tying an y, that had been lately enacted. Some of the causes of to Administration, he 4hought it the decay of trade were placed beyond the cuntroul ir to their judgment on a point of this country—but it would be well for the House really were the NobleMerquis's to-consider, Whether there were not others, which it mid be improper to ptoduce.these was in eurpoWer to remedy. He was afraid, that Id not make the motion ; but if while the causes of complaint remained in force, the in, thee, he wculd give notice. present measure would be found as inefficient as the LEY repeated his former reply, system of that physician must be, who should apply mands ; and would be .prepared palliatives only, when the most powerful remedies , veer, if notice was given of a ty.—AdjAnned. , were necessary to go to the ro o t o f t h e di sease . ; •• Mr. EYRE spoke shortly in support of the Bill. The combination which existed among these misled people was so strong, that to break it effectually would require measures of the utmost severity. Captain HERBERT regretted that the House had been denied all previous enquiry on a measure which would go to affect the lives of so many of our fellow creatures, From all the partial information he had 10s. 6d. boards, a New Edition of POEMS. By Miss MI'L'FORD, led in the same size as Coals-11NA. Occuions, with Historical, Critical, and lan Article on the CATHOLIC ci U ES t, b.D. EA.& '2 volts Bvo price 183. bds. (OURNAL, No. Viii. for Dec. i BIILLICAL. and ORIENTAL 141riaA. found correspondence on bra/tutus' Ice 6s. puhlishtd Quarterly. iurst, and Co. Paternostet-row ; and all A . 7"..11 2r PROCEEDINGS. LORDS, FEBRUARY 17. OF COMMONS. the absence of a Right Hon. Fri:nd of postponed the aeccnd reading ut the Irish tursday next. Bill was read a third time, act! -Imendment hill was read a wird t 4 ne and I been able to collect, these distuttanres owed their' so high-treason, a ton:piracy t a e n ak is t rodiesdeprali f i i : dn f ram: tca ie :wih:. origin to two causes—the decrease of employment , ' cording to the present bill, and disputes between the workmen and their cm-I from a quarrel with Vs master, or any other eau, ployers. There had been no proof, however, that should break or destroy the machinery of his ma ntel the punishment of transportation was inadequate to or the slightest utensils connected with it, /pim a b e prevent the offence ; and, in fact, tile only desidera- capitally convicted under it. In fact, the BA _ was turn which the House had to consider, was the diffi- totally directed against individual it cif: culty of discovering the persons engaged in these n ot ag dna toe conspiracy which had given birth in mischievous practices. To remedy this evil, the at- the l a te di stur b ances . I t requ i red little skill, i" tention of Parliament ought to be turned, and not to construct an Act f a r bet ter f or its purpos e : V* t lak to the addition of new capital punishments to the al- th a t p ro p ose d by t h e Ri g h t Honourable Gentleman. ready too numerous list in our Statute Boo s. It was It did not even leave any t n h c i o n n g ten to d t eti he , h chat an there y w well known that many of these frames were let out prosecutor ; b u t i n all cases compelled a ti c .: to workmen at so much per week ; and it was also The H on . Gentleman tl understood that these workmen, in many instances, not sufficient information b e f ore t h e H ouse to into; either connived at, or co-operated with, the frame- it to adopt such a measure of legislation. lie co n . breakers. He therefore shduld propose that sonic demned also the haste in which the Bill had been EA measure be adopted for making the truant rt spa si- tip. It appeared that the Right HonourableGeue, ble in law for the value of the frame, which would man had brouglo it, ready-made, in hispocket, hel ms necessarily give him an interest in its preservation. he obtained leave to bring it in, and, he was cons - Why was not some measure of this sort adopted, dent that it would, in after-times, astonish an En which would destroy the joint interest which tc- lish House of Com mons , to fi nd, upe n inspeeosogoi nant too often had at present with the fraine-taos- the Journ a l s , t h at i n a case o f lif e and death, the Le. kers ? He should have thought also that a bill amer- gislators who now exist, bad, upon only a f o „ rni cing the county of Nottingham in the value of the notes coosideration, come to the resolution ef adapto r pecuniary damages sustained by individual' , would a m easure o f suc h i mportance . At least the festa have had a good effect in repressing disorders, by should have gone into a Committee on the soti ect, producing a more general interest in their preven- and not rush blindly on this measure, without asT tion. Upon the whole, he should oppose this Bill, other information than what might be gleaned fr om as thinking that our long list of capital offences was newspapers. already disgraceful to the country, and that the pu- . Mr. BATHURST thought, that after the t oo . nishment of death was too often denounced without continuance of the outrages which had so m o t d z . discrimination against offences comparatively venial, graeed the country,—after they had so hoar braved as well as those that were most atrocious.. the law, and had even been alluded to as a mo w of Mr. JOHN SMITH wished to observe, that exultation by the common enemy,—it was light that. although the destruction of stocking-frames was the Government should adopt more effici.st reasse rts punishable with transportation, yet there was no than had been hitherto retorted such law at present to prevent the lace-trames em. H e regrette d t h e manner o f oppositio., d which had ployed in one of the most elegant manufactures of been taken up against the Bill ; and be was pani cu . this country. That defect, therefore, ought to be larly sorry for what had fallen from the Ilcnoinal4 immediately supplied. It was his firm opinion, that and Learned Gentleman who spoke last. As to aii r some measures ought forthwith to be resorted to ; reproach on the Executive for not being sufficiently the state of the country, to his certain knowledge, active, he had merely to appeal to the testinate r imperiously required it—(Hear, hear,)—and he must borne to their exertions by the Honourabl e G a g e. support the present Bill till he heard of some prefer- man, the Member for Nottingham. The real goes. able measure. He believed that the great cause of tion was, not whether the existing law was adequat e all the excesses was the decay of trade ; and lie ho- or not to the putting down of the disturbances, but ped that in due time that subject would be enquired whether the terror inspired br a heavier punishment into. But this was not the urecise moment for such would not more effectually answer that purpose. The enquiry ; the disturbance which at present existed measure proposed was founded on that principled must first be completely and finally put down. all criminal law, Rana ad /humor, metat ed ottelopt a Mr. LOCKHART justified the policy of an in- niat. The threat or terror would have the et of creased severity of punishment, as it might be hoped . deterring the many, and the punishment wouidoray that when the wives and chikiren and o ther - connee- fall on the few. He was quite convinced, that s it tions of the rioters should come t- hear of the die id- execution or two in example, would operate alraostu ful penalty to which these men were liable, they a mercy to tae.e deluded people. The Huneurable might be induced and enabled to dissuade them form Gen;leman ( Sir S. Romilly,) had mistaken ghat was incurring it. ! before the Home : it was not the passing of a law, Mr. HERBERT of Kerry supported the motion. but the second reading of a 1341; which bill, 'hark —The situation of Nottingham he conceived' to be went into Committee, might be Altered perhapsto the s imewhat like that of some counties in Ireland, very form which the Honourable Gentleman widtat when those counties were agitated by the Whi'e Mr. C. WYNNE insisted on the necessity aitidi Boys. At that time capital penalties were enacted the House had for going into a Committee of Inquiry . against those offenders; and the effect was such as on the subject of the disturbances. If the mess might be anticipated from the operation of the pre- . law had been ineffectual, ou gh t no t th e House mks sent Bill. told why it had been ineffectual ? Ought it nom Mr. WROTTESLEY was of opinion that the be before the House, why persons had been reluctile proposed measure would not have the effect expected in giving evidence against the rioters ? He waste. i from it. The greater the terror inspired by the Act, vinced that this measure had been adopted by Go, the less, he conceived, would be the likelihood of de. , vernment as an excuse for doing nothi , .g. If a Cono tection. The preamble of the present Bill stated, mittee had been granted when his Hon. Fried (oa. that the 28th of the King had been ineffectual in put- Abercrombie) had first mentioned this business, there ting a stop to the outrages complained of; but he ! would have been no necessity new tor driving the would ask, Where is the proof of the inefficacy of post-baste through the House. At that tome, it sr that Act ? Not one conviction had taken place up- stated by the Right Hon. Gentleman. hit Gores. der it. He had the authority of Blackstone for say. ment declined having recourse to any immediate ling, that the loosest of all possible reasons for hays measure, in hope of the speedy termination if ing recourse to heavy punishments was, that a previ i outrages ; and now that the Right Hon. Gentkmu ors lighter penalty had been considered ineffectual. bad announced their cessation, he brings forward nit He would always give his vote against the increase measure to prevent them. of capital punishments. I Sir A. PIGOTT took the same ground mine Sir SAMUEL ROMILLY said, that there were the Bill with his H onoura bl e Friend, Sir S. Ramilly, two points on which the whole House had agreed:— If the Bill had only in view to extend the enactments one, that the punishment of death should iiever be of the 28th of the King agains lace•trame as well es recurred to, except in cases where all other species of stocking-frame breakers, he should not censelet it punishment had been found ineffectual ; the other, objectionable: but in the present case, the object was that an evil now existed t 3 which a remedy ought to to make the offence in both capital. If a Legislatwe he applied as soon as possible. For his part, he was was at any time likely to take a wrong step, it convinced that the remedy proposed was no remedy when measures were resolved upon in moments of ir whatsoever ; the evil would still continue to exist in citation, and when the public were agitated by 6" srife of it. Ile confessed, from whatever cause these feelings' against any system of outrage. For disturbances proceeded, whether from a spirit of ma- reason, he thought the House ought to be Wks lice against the master-manufacturers, or from the larly cautious how it determined on such a step • idea that the frames diminished human labour and that which was now about to take place. &1 encroached on human industry, that the existence of new law should be resorted to, it ought to be aster them was a monstrous evil. It was an evil,. more- tained, whether the old one had been sufficiently over, which had existed in the face of a law ; and he fairly tried ; and surely that law could not be said could attribute its continuance only to two causes,- have been tried under which no prosecution had either in conspiracy to suppress evidence against of- taken place. The terror from which so much fenders, or to supineness in the Magistracy. It was expected, he imagined would not by any meats, a folly to talk of the terror which would arise from crease the wishes, or overcome the reluctance te, converting the punishment of transportation for 14 evidence, and, if it did not, the proposed law fdl years into the punishment of death. The terror of the ground. So far from capital pueisliment _tilt the one would always hav e an a l most equa l i n fl uence a tendency to promote prosecutions, had not the flow with the other on the human mind ; and he would had lately sufficient reason to believe the emb ir rl answer for it, that this terrra would not tend to dimi- Had they not been discussing at various times to 60 4 nish the evil. It was evident, if the existence cf the that an excess of punishment was one of the It evil were to be attributed to a conspiracy to suppress causes which operated in the community against Lis evidence, that the terror of a greater punishment frequency of prosecution ? As to what was Ur would tend the more to keep witnesses from * coming an Hon. Gentleman about suffixing the Bill forward. If, on the other hand, the Magistrates had go into a Committee, he was always of opinion, Did tote, not made su ffi cient exertion s un d er t h e ex i st i ng sta- th e proper time to oppose the principle of an/ e* tete, it was plain that the change of punishment . was on its second reading. For his part he Sal' would not make the m t h e more act i ve. Besides, I oundation for the principle of the bill, andhe Irmo it was an uncontradicted fact, that since the enact- therefore now oppose it. ment of the statute, no prosecution had taken place Mr. Secretary .RYDER said, that haring 3 , 0 ,' under it ; and it was therefore quite unfair to legis- ' spoken fully on the subject of this Bill, it would beg late on its inefficacy. He took it for granted that necessary for him to do more now, than to maltee,_ many of the Members who supported the second c.bservations cn what had fallen frOln reading of this Bill had never read its provisions ; in the course of the debate. The Hon. and Lev!! that they were not aware of what they were support- Gentleman, who had just sat down, had objectt!! ing. It might be very naturally imagined, that the the punishment of death being enacted by th is § l 2, bill was directed chiefly against that evil which bad and for the reason, that no trial had been . l h = been compared to high treason, and which had ex- efficacy of the penalty of transportation, cited so much the indignation of the House ; but he one prosecution had taken place. The 144111milii * could assure the House, that as it stood at present, and Learned Gentleman thought, Hon. M_eer, therein'', it was not so directed. The four species of crime making the destruction of stocking : frames bar contemplated by the bill were-Ist, entering houses i the same punishment as that of uce-framesr by force, and destroying machines-2d, entering transportation, would answer the purrs" - houses by force, with intent to destroy them-3d, then, would the matter stand, are wilfullyand maliciously cutting in pieces machines ; ment of that Learned Gentleman and the 4th, destroying any utensil, instrument, &cs of the bill must run thus—Whereas t he l'' 'belonging to the machinery. Would the House be- of transportation exists against the breaking,' lieve it, and yet it was true, that not one of those frames, and has been f. and ineffectual ; indr crimes partook of the dreadful nature of the evil it is thought necessary, that the same r complained of; and which evil was, as it was likened should be extended to the breaking ' to the Just published, price AVOLUME of P , handcomelv printe SERMONS on Public I Political Notes • containini TION. By ii.VALPY, The CLASSICAL IC Containing CLASSICAL Tuts, in which will b e GSM TULSAUSUS, prig Sold by Longman, Hu other Booksellers. sr rilR4l4 .41E HOUSE OF ROX The House metal' ships proceeded to he. above cause, wherei Her were Appellant spondents. Mr. ADAM and A , great length, as Cont ROXIILLY sh jet or leading point o of mental health in vt was at the time of hi questioned by the api The LORD CH their Lordships. the evidence which h. tion of the late Duk will was executed, str( that though, horn bo :he period of executi, sistance cf the person appeared stedfast cn testator's property—i a lapse of the nient should be received as • ship concluded by r mous decisions of thi be affirmed," which Earl GROSVEN( Lordships to the subj sins;. Although wh House could not ref their Lordships, yet that the loss of the R surprised him. (Ordo votes, that the subje House of Commons, thrown out : a more he had never heard wished to stand well to the gratitude of effect its object by su order.) It was impo which the conduct o been so much altered reason surely could n trifling importance ; f the Bill would have wishes of the country suggested, that if the occasion of difference Mare absurd reason CI they had been satisfi least problematical, bill for the suspension eversion might at an He trusted however t forward in one or o practice, of granting a obnoxious to the pub these grants was the( importance, not only but from the benefits as the commencement from a system of tech —A permanent better measure than a to say he saw no grea present carried ; but would propose if no pension should be for highly disapproved c had hitherto taken ph sure could not be carr • ought to be a long on , Lord HOLLAND State fur Foreign Affa purpose of asking a q differences With A meri it l p n the Noble Mary tlere.was any thing ciation which renderer • House the corresprnd which was . already n was averse to make ar be knew that the stmney persuaded th Would at present be in was a subject to whist: anxiously turned ; an( ' opinion given by the should move for the p ' Marquis WELI.E S bad received no coma to lay any papers befi Noble Lord's, queslion Lordship would give pen on some future di to give him a distinct 'Lord HOLLAND bring forward a motio the answer which he r great confidence in the but fair to yield so far of this nature. if it r judgment that it woul papers now, he woulc there was no übjeCtion MarquisWELLES. that he had no comma to give a distinct answ motion for a future da: HOUSE Mr. GRATTAN, In tin his (Sir J. Newpcot), post; Population Hill till hursda The East India Loan Bill The Lords' Act Amends I sued. XBIIRGH CAUSE. lbopt two o'clock, and their Lord tear Counsel on that hranclr of the in the Ladies Essex and Mary us, and Wachope and others Re. 1 6( al teri: t'c Irio~ left? it hi fo sl init4 if iii-- si, I,t;r Us ot It ci ti r, di kli *ti e , . _ ilki i ; of go ad d e The 'Phu