Star. — London, England, 1813-03-26 00:00:00

~. b e ing teeriteci trait tai atad, itentitetmil to ag with the same compficeney, he deceived himself very much. For two or three years Of delusive ease they would be involved in twenty ye-e i tt of difdculty, and instead of imptoving their condition hi the event of a peace, it would bring them to the necessity of a peace not on a footing of equality but of submission, deprived of the only guarantee for the duration of safety. The plan suggested by hit Right Honour able Friend last year, was to make an addition to the Sinking Fund, and he now proposed to diminish it. But the last and greatest authority against the proposed plan was that of Mr. Pitt, with whom he (Mr. Huskisson) had an interview previous to his going to Bath, 1805. At that period he had an op portunity of knowing the views entertained by Mr. Pitt, which were, that he had it in contemplation, in the ensuing Session, to propose to Parliament to lay as many additional taxes as could be imposed with 'but too sudden a pressure on the resources of the country—that he would have given in the next year aid to the Sinking Fund, which aid should be drawn from the new charges in each successive year. Those views, entertained by Mr. Pitt, were diametrically at variance with those of his Right Honourable Friend, who, in July last, had not entertained those sanguine hopes with respect to the conduct of Russia, which he would now be justified in, nor did the affairs of the Continent wear that promising aspect in which they now appeared, yet, at this moment, when trade was reviving, when the Continental System seemed on the point of falling asunder, when Europe was beginning to raise her prostrate head and our appre hention was removed, his'Right Hon. Friend came forward with nis plan ; but if events had not been so favourable, and the public distress was rather in creasing than diminishing, then he would have called for vigorous supplies and great additions to' the existing burdens. Now, when the prospect was' changed, there appeared to his Right Hon. griend • to be reasons for departing from the system he had laid down last year. It was not his intention to propose any regular plan, but merely. to throw out tome suggestions for the consideration of his Right Honourable Friend. This appeared to be a most critical period of public affairs / whzn it was necessary that we should exhiisit our resources unimpaired ra ther than diminished, and he would ask his Right Honourable Friend, why he would not rather lay on . 4800,000 additional taxes in. anticipation of defray ing them out of the Sinking Fund at a future period ? —Looking to the continuance of the war for some years, we should find the change of benefit in 1819, when the Imperial Annuities would fall in, and in 1821, when the charge of 1807 would fall in. After that the Five per Cents. might be reduced, - and a further reduction might take* place in some other fund. All this would be a relief' and after that pe riod the too rapid reduction of the interest might be looked to. But in whatever degree they anticipated, they made use of the resources of the state of war.— They had a temporary revenue co-extensive with the war, andthey wanted a permanent revenue for the public creditor. Their temporary revenue would last till their permanent was available. His Right Hon: Friend had said that he was ready to lay down his life for the service of his country, and one would have expected that he was about to propose some vigorous system of Finance, which would have subjected him to unmerited clamour and unpopula rity, but he certainly had committed :. mistake in giving an epilogue prepared for a drama of a dif ferent description. No one could have less doubt than he had of the readiness of - his Right Honour able Friend to make any sacrifice for the good of his country, but in his present plan he had laid no claim to the crown of martyrdom, nor could he put on the robe of Cato while he was acting the part of Czcar.—(Hear, hear..) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, his Hon. Friend had . fallen into a radical mis conception of the• entire plan • proposed ; he should therefore find it difficult to pursue him. His Hon. Friend must admit that the Act of 1802 must at some time be departed from. The question now was, whether the present was a proper time to depart from its provision ? So far from weakening, as had been imputed to that glorious monument of the talents of Mr. Pitt, it would be the effect of his plan to place it on a more firm and permanent basis. He admitted that since 1793, the creditor's had a right to the be refit of the provisions of the Act, but it was also provided, that within forty-fiiie years the public rnight pay off the loan. The Resolutions upon the taole made no infringement upon that Act, and they I provided for the repayment within a shorter period than 15 years. He bad thought that his Honourable Friend mould have shewn sonic cases where this would not apply, but he had not done so. He had stated that, after forty-five years the Sinking Fund would be applied to the payment of the loans. But this was not the principle of the plan that lie (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had laid before the House, he had only stated, that a discretionary power was in the hands of Parliament. In his plan, the re. demption would take place in a shcrter time than it Would by the present. The opinion of Mr. Pitt was, that Parliament had a discretion in vary,iig the mode of redemption; and, in 1k;02, Parliament gave to the stockholder a future charge upon the Sinking Fund. The Hon. Gentleman had stated that the application of the Sinking Fund with compound intbrest could not be altered ; but the end of the fund would be r:vor.r pi ished when the loan would be redeemed. The onir nuAle repaying a loan, was by redeeming a pan Lion of stock equal to, it. No individual stock holder could say that he had a claim upon the In come Tax. The Hon. Gentleman had stated it to be the object of his plan to postpone additional taxation r four years. This he allowed to be a great object, if it could be done without injury to the public cre dit, but it was not the sole object. It would give us great importance in the eyes of our Allies, and even in those of Bonaparte if he. thought it would enable us to-carry on the war. with. vigour for foar years.— The present was the season for great exertion, and at a different crisis he should not have pressed the adop tion of the plan. His Hon. Fi lend had referred to, his (the Chancellor o f tie E xc h equ e r ) opinions upon a former occasion. Upon a review of them, he thought them applicable to the period at which they were delivered, nor was there any thing in them in consistent with his present views. His speech was then made with a view of providing for a long con tinuance of expence ; but that view of the subject bad been since materially elapsed, thouah his Hon. IFriend had taien thutirattag4 hot %lit, of Itatenient M * header on the supposition o e conti nuance of War ftir.gt . years. Should the war continue, to loop an increase ef debt was the least evil to be feared: in the last, five years, of 1.18 millions i only 59 had been vested in the 3 per tents.. The increase Of the debt, According to the view of the Hem Geti &Man, proceeded upon a supposition of many years of war, and that the Whole would be 'vested in the 3 per Cents. and that while in the year 1813 the amount of the loan would be 118 millions, that of i the taxes Would be only 108; but this was taking the most unfavourable view of the subject ; for the first year the amount of the Sinking Fund would be greater than if no change had taken place. Accord ing to the present system the amount would be 13 millions; according to the new, it would be 13 mil , lions two hundred thousand. In the first six quar ters, according to the old system, the amount would be 20 millions ; according to the new, it would be 20 millions four hundred thousand. From this k was evident that the new system added before it took away. He conceded to hit Hon. Ft iend that the un redeemed debt for many years would be great, but , he could not perceive that the taxes would be great also. -In the year 1818, twenty millions would be taken off by the falling in of the Imperial Loan, and in that year at least there would be no new taxes.— , The question was should taxes be paid now or after , the year 1830 ; but at that period there might be no ' necessity for them. The reason, therefore, for not imposing taxes now was, that at a future period they might be unnecessary. According to the statement of the Hon. Gentleman, Mr. Pitt's intended measure had been carried into execution by his successor, Lord Grenville and the present Marquis of Lansdo . v.— When the Hon. Gentleman charged him with incon sistency, he did not advert to the change of circum stances that had taken place since that speech bad been delivered. The attempt to equalize the expendi ture with the taxes had been made in 1807. The present plan afforded the best means for that purpose, and, should more taxes be necessary at a future time, they would be submitted to more cheerfully from . some millions having been previously saved. The Hon Gentleman had confined his view too much to the four next years, had he extended them farther he would have found a saving of 11 millions. The present plan would have a permanent effect. While large loans were raised, the Sinking Fund might ope rate to diminish the pressure; brit he looked forward to a change of circumstances, and it was always un wise to legislate for particular occasions. The ad vantage of a large Sinking Fund was more than counterbalanced by the consequent but diens neces sary to be imposed. The Sinking Fund was at one time too large, and at another too small ; but by the present plan it would be rendered steady and uniform. The rate of interest would also be prevented from experiencing too rapid a decrease, though this did not apply to a time of war. Another importaut effect of the plan would be, the sum of 120 millions at the disposal of the country. Tait: necessatiiy would put much energy in the hands of Parliament. Nothing could be more desirable than the possession of such a I fund, if it could be got without injury to the public. (Hear, hear ! and a laugh.) The plan proposed was no breach of public faith, and was perfectly consis tent with every engagement that had at any time been entered into by Government. It also provided for a more rapid,climinution of the public debt than by the law as it now stood. It was surely of great 'advantage to have a large sum in time f peace dis posable by Parliament, in case of war. It was no objection to thiS, to state that it might be abused ; , let the fault be upon the head of those who abused the means, not upon their's who provided them. He I wished the plan to be regarded as a measure of gene ral policy, and injurious to no class of men. To the landed proprietor it held out nothing but advantages. The trader would be relieved by it from bradens which he had cause to complain. To the stock•hol der it was pregnant with peculiar advantages, and to every class it would do more than counterbalance the diminution of the Sinking Fund. He had never met with one who thought that in peace the Act of 1802 could be carried into effect. When then should the change be made ? By making this change the public mind would be prepared tiff a new system. It was proposed so to alter the mode of redemption, that the ' debts first contracted should be fit st discharged, and the nation was now entitled to the benefit of the Sinking Fund from the great exertions that had been I made to prevent the accumulation of debt. The pre sent plan did not at all itoringe the Act of 1792, for lit was in the contemplation of that Act that the debt should be redeemed in the order in which it had been contracted. All the leading objections to the plan he proposed he had previously foreseen, except such a bed as isen from a radical misconception of it. He had maturely weighed them, and found they bore no proportion to the advantages to be derived from it.— He now presented it to the House as a compound of policy and finance. MP. ALEXANDER BARING said, it was im- possible that the proposed plan of the Chancellor of the Exchecitter could give satisfaction to many men, whether of the landed or moneyed interest of the country. It must be highly exceptionable to men of the last deieription, as they had always been taught by that House to consider the Sinking Fond esta blished • expressly for the extinction of the National Debt, and that Parliament would not, on any consi deration, consent to its being diverted to any other pur pose. He supposed that one individual had contracted a debt with another, and that the debtor consented to allot a particular fund whence it should be repaid ; on non•payment a Court of Justice would interfere, and hold the fund until' the creditor had satisfation ; but, in the present case, the public creditor looked on that House as a Court of Justice, add yet, contrary to ' the practice of our Law courts, it not only was not • likely to grant him similar satisfaction, but actually to withhold it. (Hear.) Were the proposed measure i r at all justifiable, however, the present was not the proper time to bring it forth. There was nothing pe -1 culiar in the present year to justify it more than at any other time. The expenditure in 1809 had ex ceeded that of the present year by ten millions, and yet it was not then resorted to. Should the system, however, be persevered in, he hoped it might be suf fered to lie over for the present Session, for as this was a year pregnant with most important events, he hoped the succeeding year would be more favourable I to its establishment. The prices of stock must fall very much when the holders see the fund for then re ' tilient ti6taway, wiles ; partiautar ctritinistitiiiii e ur p r a e rin d fr e e: w t i h e i which o t u b l e d y n c o o t u s l d o i p n e t r o c a e i n v e tt a a n p s i r prospect *hether there *as any violation of the public faith i r IN the Act of 1802; but he thought it ought not to be said, that because Parliament bad by that Act, thonsbtfit to go into a regulation of that fund, that therefore they were at liberty to do so on other occa sions; The Act of 1192 pledged the HOuse to pay in forty-five years: that, however, had been answer ed by the Right Honourable Gentleman. It was pro per to consider, whether this would be a proper time to touch the Sinking Fund ? the Chancellor of the Ex chequer said it was, but he differed from him in opi nion. The year 1809 was far more favourable ; for then there was a surplus of seven millions, with a great difference of expenditure. We should now want to borrow to the amount of 25 millions and ar•half, with a decreasing Sinking Fund ; while for ieveral years past we had only borrowed eighteen millions, with an increasing fund. This plan would reduce the Three per cent. Consols to 50 ; and he doubted, whether it could go on at all ; at all events, one year of misfor tune would make them stick fast. The Right Hon. Gentleman held out as an inducement, that the coun - - try would be relieved from taxes ; but in the year 1809, he opposed such a plan ; and what had occur red since to make it necessary to give relief from tax ation this year ? There had net been any serious tax since 1806, until last year : altogether they did not amount to £800,000; and on the last yer, the only heavy tax was that on leather. If it were necessary this year to give relief from taxes, it must be, because the country was considered unable to bear taxes at any time. It was to be considered, that except the ad valorein taxes, all taxes bad, from the great depreciation in' the currency, really declined in value. No essential 'relief would be afforded to the country by the respite, at least only a partial relief. To the funded pro..; perty it was immaterial whether the taxes increased or the debt. If taxes were laid on, the landed in , Merest would find relief in the increased price of pro ductions ; but if the debt were increased, the burthen I was thrown entirely on the funded property I.sth, as it was already stated of the property of the country, But he was confident there was too much good sense and justice in the landed interest, for them to wish to throw the burthen on the stockholder ; for. on them must fall the burthen. The land proprietors, he trusted, would to a man oppose the plan, as, in the event of the men - of large mo ney capitals declining to advance snore money for the public service at the ordinary interest, it ' 1 I was the land aloue to which the Country would ulti mately look to for the means of deiraying the expen- I ses of the present war. Hoping that v hat he had said would hive some influence in prevailing on the House to defer giving that measure effect, at least for some time, he should not enter any further into its details. - Mr. CHARLES LONG said, it he thought that the plan of his Right Hon. Friend would tend to weigh down the Sinking Fund, or that the national credit would sustain the slightist shock, he would be the last person living to give his concurrence to its adepticn. Believing, as he did, however, that the plan of his Right Honourable Fr iend was 'likely to I lead to great and lasting advantages to the State, he should not hesitate to give it his support ; and this principally on the ground of the , difficulty of furnish. ing new taxes to support the exigencies of the times,) a difficulty which was by no means surprising, when the enormous increase of taxes during the last few years was considered. He would take the liberty oft stating to the House the rapid progress of this increase. In 1786, the permanent taxes amounted only to ten millions—in 1793, when the present war commenced, to fourteen millions, and now they had reached the enormous sum of bet Ween thirty•five zeal thirty-six miliicns, to which was to be added War Taxes, be tween twenty-two and twenty-three millions, making a total increase, from 1786 down to the present pe riod, of forty-four millions. In 1807, Lord Henry Petty, for wlyise opinions he entertained the highest respect, said he thought it would be extremely tit to/ abstain from taxation; and if reasons existed then for such a measure, how much m , re forcible were the reasons which existed now ? If he loAced into the nature of the Taxes which were at present levied upon the public, he could not divine in what manner they could be carried further. The Income Tax had been carried, he apprehended, to as great an cxaent as it could well bear. After this came the Customs, and the Duty on Tonnage, a duty which, the very I moment a peace arrived, from motives of policy and prudence, must be abolished. That the Per manent Taxes, let this event happen when it might, must be increased, be had no doubt, and the Income Tax appeared to Aim to bi - . 4 one of those which was most likely to assume this character.— He bad listened to his Hon. Friend (Mr. Huskisson,) and while he admired the ingenuity of his arguments, he waited with the utmost patience to hear what plan he would suggest, as a substitute for that of which he complained. He had not, however, beeri able to col lect what his meaning really was. He talked most certainly of imposing new duties, but what those du ties were to b?, the House still, remained in ignorance. That a necessity for the adoption of some plan did exist, there was not the slightest doubt; and, until a plan more congenial to his ideas of policy, than that of his Right Hon. Friend, was brought forward, he would not hesitate to declare his Right Hon. Friend's I suggestion to be admirably calculated, from every reason, both for the present benefit and ultimate ad vantage of the country. Mr. THORNTON understood the Chancellor of the Exchequer to say, that what remained of the Sinking Fund after the lapse of 45 years, was to be placed at the divosal of Parliament. There was one advantage in the plan, that it went to correct the un manageable increase of the Slaking Fund, which arose from the plan of 1302, and converted the Fund into the old principle of successive redemption. Ha ving proceeded from year to year on the principle of the one per cent. Sinking Fund, he did not think it right now to depart from it. He agreed that this was a time of difficulty, and every means should be afforded to the Chancellor of the Exchequer of avoid ing the occasion of any additional taxes. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER explained. The principle of the plan was the princi ple of successive redemption, and the limitation of the Sinking Fund was to arise from the quantity of Debt redeemed. . Mr. G. ROSE would not detain the House very long. When the Chancellor of tjie gxchecluer first • mentioned the plan to himhe did not think he toiliA carry it intd effect Without touching the Sinking Funds It Seethed to be admitted on all sides, that it must be touched at some time, and the question was, whether this was the &tett time Two litany dred and twelve millions of Debt had been paid off during a most ruinous and eipensive war, by the plan of Mr. Pitt. The Sinking Fund established by hint; was the Only one that had succeeded to any great ex.. tent, the question then was, whether enough had not been done for posterity—(Hear, froni the Oppositiov,) and whether this was not a proper time tor some change of system ? The plan was by nd meant A breach of public faith ; so far from it, Stocks seemed rather to have risen since it was proposed: The plait proposed by the Hon. Gentlenian (Mr. Huskisson) he looked upon to be completely visionary: Sir R. HERON trusted, if ever he became a great Minister, that he should not have the Right Hon: Gentleman (Mr. Rose) for an eulogist—(Laeghter.) • for he thought it was a very bad compliment to pay to the memory of. Mr. Pitt, to suppose that het would have been satisfied with what he had done for a pos. terity," having paid off 240 millions, but leaving hie that same posterity 600 Millions of debt. (Hear, hear.) —He had never admired the principles or polity of Mr. Pitt's Administration; but he should he wanting in that spirit of candour, which, he ti ihted, would ever characterize his Parliamentary conduct, did he not say, that in his opinion the Sinking Fund esta blished by Mr. Pitt, was one of the greatest booni that any country had ever received at the hands of A Minister.—(Hear.)—But the proposition of this night was a complete delusion—it was a new modelling of the Sinking Fund, and the effect of that proposition 4' would be,, a partial suspension of the operations of that Fund. It the country were to be told thatglid Government could not go on without this sacrifice, he thought there ought to be a retrenchment of our expenditure—of those expenses in particular which were occasioned by unnecessary Pensions, building Barracks, and erecting Martello Towers. Mr. TIERNEY had no anxiety to go into the question on the present ocCasion. In troth, his views had been so abundantly taken up arid enforced by a , Right Hon. Member ( Mr. litiskisson), that no temp tation would induce him to say any thing on it, lest lie should weaken what had been so powerfully de tailed. He could not but express his stating wish that the speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman might have a fair opportunill of working its way both with the Government and ivith the Public, and for that purpose he thought the House ought to postpone its decision. Tice subject was now ugly beginning to be understood. As to the tables of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and the statement which in fact formed a sort of speech, he had nut been able to meet. with one single individual that understood them'. He did not wish to wave discussion—he wished to meet but he did not wish to precipitate the business. It was the most important measure that had been agi tated in that llouse, and was pregnant with alarm ing mischief. Adopting tire language of the other Members, because he could not find better, if the proposition were acquiesced in, it would be a gross breach of public faith. The time must come, he admitted, when they must do something respecting the Sinking Fund, bet the present motion was so uncalled for by existing circumstances, that if adopted he comet only repeat tint it was a breach of public faith. On the present occas;rin he must take sonic credit to himself for the opposition tehish lie gave to the measure of 1802. He then ventured to point out all those mischiefs as inseparable from the measure which they had now to deplore. But his eftotts were vain. Since that period, he had never lost any opportunity of calling on the House for a Commi:tee to take into consideration all the subjects connected with the finances of this country ; and at no more distant period than the last Session of last Parliament, he had contended for the necessity of inquiring into these things, as some strong measures of finance must be adopted. The Chancellor of the Exche quer, however, treated him as au unfortunate, gloomy Gentleman, who unhappily had got some very erro neour notions respecting cur finances into his head, who, in fact, was in that hapless, hopeless condition, that he could not distinguish right from wrong.— It was then said, that our finances were really going on most flout ishingly ; and that, in the course of the Session to come, which indeed had now arrived, the House would be very much •" surprised." The House certainly had been very much " turpthed but not exactly in that way which the Chancellor .of the Exchequer Would have led him to expect. —The great objection to the present proposition was, that it had not been preceded by a Committee—that ' solemn inquiry had not been gone into; for aow it seemed nothing was to be done but to lay violent hands on the Sinking Fund. So strong a measure certainly required that inquiry, solemn inquiry should precede breach of public faith. He would even now epropose the appointment of a Committee, but from the manner of Gentlemen opposite he did not think there would be much chance of succeeding; and he was at all times averse ircm taking up the attenticas of the House unnecessarily. The measure now pro posed he believed on his honour to be one of the most fatal measures that had ever been attempted against public credit in this country.—(Hear, hear. )—Su tat.Al did he deem it, that he thought no temporarrad. vantage was worth obtaining, nit could not be ob. tarried without such sacrifice. The proposition would again come before the House, possibly when the Bill was moved for, and he should then think it his duty to take the sense of the House ou the extraordinary measure. Mr. PONSONBY had thought that the sense of the House ought to be taken in the present stage of the discussion ; but some of his friends had thought otherwise, and he gave way to them ; but he could not lose even this opportunity of expressing his opinion of the measure, which was, that its principle was of a most destructive and fatal tendency. Mr. W. FITZGERALD highly approved of the propositions of his Right Hon. Friend ( the Chancellor of the Exchequer) and he thought the proposed mea sure could not be fairly called a breach of public faith. In his humble estimation it zeritcd the highest ap plause, inasmuch as it would very materially relieve the public, and would at the same time do away the necessity of further taxation for the present year. After a few words from Mr. TIERNEY and Sir Ro. BERT HERON, the Resolutions were read and agreed to, the Report was ordered to be received to-morrow, WI a; one o'clock this morning the House adjourned.