Star. — London, England, 1820-10-18 00:00:00

their Government disliked their being herts.r-(eries of « An% name .'").—He dared, to say the 'oble Lord knew very well to whom he alluded—(Lord ord Castlereagh assured him that he did cot). -31r. Tierney - concluded by advising the withdrawing of the motion, and bearing a warm testimony to the character of Sir IL Baker, whom he considered to be incapable of commit. ting an improper action. Lord CASTLERNAGH and Mr. Clive severally explained, It was not the custom of the !Lame Office to offer rewards for the apprehension of persons charged with misdemeanours: At Glas-' • o•v the o ff ence was Treas on. • 3lr. BECK Err corrohorated the statement of Mr. Clive. Ile knew no instance of Government interferiug in such a case' as this was. The 1101.ouralle Gentleman spoke in the highest turns of Sir Robert Baker, whom he hid known fourteLn or fteen years, and held to be utterly incapable of doing any ac licat from a corrupt motive. lie opposed the motion, as pre the case of the Magistrates,' and injuring them before th.y appeared at the kar of the roper legal tribunal. Mr. IIIIOUGII.f , 31 expressed a wish that the Motion should be withdrawn, till they saw if the nedinary means of proceed ing to obtain redress were tried and failed. Not that he denied to the House the power of instituting this inquire, but he .heucht it a function which might roily tube exercised when no aiher means remained but that of an inquiry conducted by the Grand Inquest of the Nation. lie did not think that there was matter produced sufficient to impeach Ministers. As for Sir Robert Baker, he should rejoice if he succeeded in defending himself effectually, but he rather conceived his conduct to have been censurable, and especially if be had said, as was asserted, that he had taken hail, when in fact he ha,i not. The prisoner had escaped, and even still no reward was offered. Ile hoped Lord Sidinouth had a better defence than that which bad bean elate for him; indeed, he never heard an advocate do his client so little good as the lloa. Gentleman who spoke last had. Mr. CALVERT wished the motion to be withdrawn. He had long known Sir Robert Raker, and knew bins to be as in capable of falsehood as any Gentleman in or out of that House —.Wear, hear). Sir ILO lIERT n lISON inquired, if Franklin was • taken, whether Government would prosecute him or not? Lord CASTLEREAG H answered, that was not In his de partment ; but he had no doubt his Noble Friend would do everything in his power to Wing him to justice. • Lord JOHN RUSSELL expressed his dissent from the opi rii.ms of Sir John Sehright, as to the popular feeling• in this country. The people had displayed the utmost patience and forbearance under privations of every sort. Lord CASTLEREAGII invited Mr. Hums to communicate with the Ilonie Office. Mr. 11 l; L shortly replied, and finally withdrew his motion, 'Ern assertin7 ilia Sir Robert Baker had openly asserted he had taken hail, wl.en, in fact, he had not dune so. PROCEEDINGS AGAINST THE-QUEEN. Mr.I3IIOGDEN brought up the Report_ of the Groonittee appointed-to inspect , the Lords' Journals, which was read, and whieh set forth-the proceedings of•that day before the Lords. . . Lord CASTLEREAGH observed, that when, on' the last day of their meeting, he proposed an adjourn nuot, his object was on the next day of the. meeting. .ss propose another adjournment to a day on which the Hon ;e should be called over. This he did under an impression that the Bill then before the other house of Parliament, might come down to the House of Commons on the present day. But as it did not appear that an early deciiion was lately tole made on that Bill; he should now move an adjoururnent to a more distant day than he at first intended. 'He should therefore name.the 2M of November, and pe alse.opose that the House should be called over eat dav, so as to have the feLiest possible attendance, ‘• • ;mj.be event of the Bill cooing down nu that day. 0, if the proceedings should still be going on at that time in the other House, the call of the House might .bp . f ur ther postponed. He tweed s that the House et its rising should adjourn to Thunder, the 23d of November next. . . Sir GERARD NOEL moved as an Amendment, that the House should,.at its rising, adjourn till to morrow. Mr. TIERNEY thought the period of adjournment proposed by the Noble Lord much too long. At the same time, he could not agree with the Honourable' Baronet's Amendment. The trial of her Majesty had I I already made a great progress, and he did not see' .any necessity for putting off the next meeting of the house to the 23d of next month': for, after the Mi nutes had swelled to above 900 pages, it was not likely the trial could last much longer. A reasonable jinx ought certainly to be granted, in order to see how the proceedings went on in the other House ; but to ad journ so long would be, on the part of that House,, an act of subserviency to the Lords, and would in crease the agitation which. already existed ;in the country. And in case the proceedings of that House were to be finished in a week, asd the Bill passed, he asked4f her Majesty was vote kept in a state of sus pense for four weeks longer Bot if the Bill should be thrown out by the Lords, he would ask what in cou.venienee could be produced by a short adjourn sent? But great inconvenience would arise from the coarse proposed to be .adopted, There was a general feeling of indignation in the country against his Majesty Ministers ; and it would not do to say that this indignation would be at an end if the Bill were lost . 'I ne Ministers stood in a situation of great responsibility ; they had, by their proceedings against her Majesty, trifled with the public feeling —they betrayed the King and insulted the Queen. With regard to the men from whom the business ori ginated, their conduct must be.iiivestigated. The Milan Commission must be investigated. He was Sure that Commission proceeded from the Ministers, and was the act of the Government, for which the Ministers were deeply responsible to the country. Besides, there was a great deal of peblic business left unfinished since last Session, which rendered an early meeting of Parliament necessary. Let not the country think that the House of Commons was the only body in the country which was indifferent to its affairs. Lord CASTLEREAGH was ready to admit that, whatever might ,be the issue of the qoestion before the House of Lords, there was a variety of que s t ions ' connected with it, which must occupy the attention ,of that House. But the Right Hon, gentleman must agree with him, that whatever questions might arise' .oat of this investigation, they were of such high im ;po:-tance that the House ought not to enter upon Wl= without the fullest possible attendance. In the (notion, therefore, which he made, he wished to corn 'aine the question of adjournment nth the question cur a call of the House. Supposethe business should not be concluded in the Lords for three weeks, and ;hat the Bill should pass that House, a fortnight must. .itlterwards elapse before a discussion could take plane 5n that House, as the call could not take place wend . . - Therefore, under all the circumstances, he thought the proposed adjournment would be the must convenient. Mr. I.:LERNEY, in explanation, observed; that if the adjournment was . put of so long, a eery greig Inconvenience would ante. ;lif l it w;is this wish 41 - ,the Noble 'Lord to adjourn the bushes till ;Liter Christ -arras, let him say so at once; but he Maas sure, thutif the swat day of mating were pa off to 90 distant lime, it would keep all the Mengsees.of the House, who were now in town, in a state of suspense. Sir W. DE CRESPIGNY could not conceive why the Noble Lord fixed on so distant a day, unless it was from a notion that the Bill now before the Lords was pot likely ever, to come before that House. Mr. CREEVEY asked if the Members of that .llouse, who. were supposed to ,be the guardians of the peoples rights, were to be the only persons in the country who were to be insensible to the villainy of the Bill of Pains and Penalties. When, the House last met, a motion was made for an Address to the King, to prorogue the Parliament, in order to get rid of that Bill. But the motion was not made tiow, for at that time it was the trial of the Queen which was, going forward ; but within the last twcrdays, every thing was reversed, and it became a trial for a con spiracy on the part of the Government—(Hear, hear). The Right Hoe. Gentleman opposite to . him (Mr. Wellesley Pole) might smile ; but had he attended for the last two days in the House of Lords; and if he had, did he hear anything there to make him -smile ? At all events, it was possible he might have no cause to smile before this business was concluded. Bills of Pains and Penalties had often on former oc casions been brought before Parliament, and though unconstitutional measures, there existed a strong plea • of justice and necessity in support of them ; but this not only was destitute 01 every sort of apology, but was a Bill the most unjust and infamous in its nature that ever was brought before Parliament ; and there was only one human being in the world who sin cerely wished it to pass—( Hear, hear, hear!) — The infamy of the Bill was felt by almost all persons, and lie would not be a party to it. So far as the Bill had gone, and considering the evidence adduced in support of it, it was impossible to look at - it with out contempt—(Hear, hear). It charged her Ma jesty with an adulterous intercourse, and after a host of perjured witnesses were brought- forward in sup port of that charge, the only point on which the pro secutots could rest was the miserable accusation of sleeping on the deck of the polacca. "So help me GOAr said Mr. Creevey, 0 I believe her Majesty to be avian/scent of all the charges as thesnost spotless, female in the world !"—(Continued cheers). lie did not helieretirat therewas one word-of teeth in all that the miserable-Ira/jails had been bribed and persuaded. to sweea4againstiier Majesty. The next allegation, on account of which all England had been put in metionotaisi. that the conduct of- the Queen had de. graded the character of the.country—that the morals of the nation were at. stake—and a fastidious Cow t--. so pure in itself, and so anxious for The purity- of all the rest of mankind—(Cheers) —was to drag the British Pailiarrient through the dirt and filth of this inquiry—to divorce and degrade .the Queenurider the pretence that the national honour had- been tainted and sullied by her deportmentl—(Hear). Most fortunately for that national honour, not a single English witness had been called who did nct swear that, so far from degrading the country, they had never seen in her conduct anything iu the slightest degree indecorous or derogatory. But the fasudieus . Court—the delicate, and scrupulous. Court—the pure unblemished Court—had found one ally, one poor solitary witness, who had sworn that the refinement ofhis moral sense .was such that he had been induced co withdraw his innocent nephew from the contagions sight of the. Queen of Great Britain—( Repeated cheers hoot all .sides).—lie hoped that her Majesty, who hind evinced no little courage in facing and daringlier enemies, would have sufficient fortitude left to bear up against the shock of this dreadful im putation, (rein a person, at once so antediluvian in his niorals, and so disinterested in his testimony—(Hear). A third point comained.in the preamble was, that the Queen had violated her duty to the King ; but what duty did she owe to one who,. under his own hand, had confesied that he had turned her out of doors? ( Loud cheering).—That she owed allegiance to the King, as his subject, was not to be disputed ; but that she owed duty to the King, lie (Mr. Creevey) most strenuously denied, nor would he be any patty to try her for a supposed breach of it. Yet this House, as well as the Lords, was to be driven into the i inquiry ; but, without power to administer an oath— ' without Judges to assist it in point of law—With the public opinion, on the score of corruption and in fluence, most decidedly Against it—he never would consent that, in suck an assembly, the Queen should be put upon her trial. For himself, he felt a perfect horror at the bare notion of it; nor was his shame less that; while such a topic was presented, the pri vate convenience of the Members had this night been the only subject of discussion—(Hear). . Mr. TIERNEY, in explanation, said, that his firm determination, as expressed by him at several times, was to keep down his opinions until the proper tune arrived, when they would be seasonable. Mr. SCARLErf declared himself to be one who never would, upon any.public ground yet stated, consent to pass a Bill of Pains anill'enalties—(Hear). The Report on the table informed him of the pro ceedings in the other House. • That part of it which stated that questions had been put to the Judges re specting the admissibility of evidence, which was to , shew that the witnesses-I'or this Bill were influenced Iby corrupt motives, spewed also that these questions were put in consequence of objections started by the Counsel in support of the prosecution. He could only say this, that were he a Counsel against the meanest individual in the kingdom, and were he told that pains had been taken to influence by bribes all or a part of his witnesses, he never would have op posed the inquiry into that matter upon a ground of forth—(Cheers). He would repeat, in the case of the meanest individual in a case of penal proceeding, he would feel that he was besraying his trust if he pro, posed any objection of form-to such inquiry—(Hear).. lie did not mean to imply any improp e r motives to the promoters or authors of this measure, but if it: was their intention and wish to bring this country, and the most revered parts of itsiostitutions into diss grace and contempt, they could not have selected, means more suitable And effectual for their- purposes. Nobody could now doubt that it was A question be tween the Queen of England and the Ministers ; and here he begged to observe, that he ones ly protested against the introduction, in any shape, whether' by insinuation or by express terms-of the sacred name .of Majesty into these discusions—(Hear, hear). — Me uSeaserewss the measure of the Ministers, and they were responsible for it. Ile .wonld repeat, that .l i p %r t g rA T . protested against raising techoical objec tlCHOSita itoe admits on' of evl t teAce of s.uo4-polituitc as that proposed to be adduced by the Counsel for' the queen, and he owned that to him it was a mat ter of great surprise that the HOlifit of Lords, a body whom .he was taught to lookup to with reverence ; and attachment, should for an instant tolerate these: Objections in a ease wherein they had an undoubted right to put those questions without the consent of 1 any Counsel. Mr, COURTENAY defended the propriety of the , course which had been pursued by the Ministers with I respect to the Queen. He traced the steps which had been taken to investigate the truth of certain reports which had been long circulating to her Majesty's dishonour, and justified those measures upon grounds of duty and expediency. He praised the character of Mr. Cooke, and observed, that his easy and com petent circumstances, in addition to his integrity, must avert the suspition that he would have sub mitted to be a corrupt tool in the hands of others, for the dishonest purpose of furthering his private fortune at the expense of truth and justice. He (Mr. Courtenay) though unwilling to say a word upon this question under the present circumstances, could not yet stiffer the assertion to be repeated in that HOUSe, 1 that the feeling of the country was universal against 1 the proceeding, knowing as he did, and willing to declare, from the bottom of his heart, that his con viction was that the tide of popular feeling was turn ing in the opposite direction—(Loughter on the Oppo sawn Benches). He would repeat, that this was his conviction, and he was equally firmly persuaded, that wilittever, was the result,- the People would acknow ledge that the hiquiry was unavoidable, and that they would feel satisfiedothat this trial; if trial it must be called, had been pursued in a spirit and temper which promised the fullest and fairest access to justice. Mr. CALCRAFT said, that for his part, whether the popular opinion was with him or against him, he should feel it his duty to take that course , which, as an honest man, he would recommend to the House ; but were he to judge of the direction of the popular feeling, he certainly should say, that it accompanied that side of the question which he had been attempt ing to advocate: They felt the injustice and impo licy of this measure. But whatever the popular feel ing might be, the right feeling was, that when a woman was abandoned—when she was cast upon the world—and. even when an implied permission was granted to her—that nothing she should do would be made the subject. of inquiry—(No, no! and hear: ). lie would . say, . that there was an unite' standing to that effect—the right feeling was, that a woman under sukh circumstances, claimed the protection of every humane mind against the. attacks of enemies. l le would abstain from .giving any opinion upon the evidence— nor did he deem it necessary to form any opinion.upon it. because whether the Queen was innocent or guilty, it would make ne alteration in his sentiments with re spect to the rueaorre riow.peuding in the other House. The Noble Lord opposite,. who seemed to be so reso lute-in the vindication of the honour and impartiality of the House of Peers, had himielf been a voluntary instrument to degrade that greatest Court of Appeal ,in this country—for he and his colleagues, by origi nating the Bill of Pains and Penalties in that House, had reversed the constitutional order, and made the House of Commons a Court of Appeal to the House Of Lords: he was persuaded, that the measure never *odd have. been propased.but for the apprehen sion that a refusal to introduce it would have been attended with the loss .of office ° . It oti,,i . . nated in the ambition of one min 'to became a Chancellor, and in the desire of =Other man to re tain his situation as Chancellor.--(Heer, bear). — He believed that the Vice-Chancellor want it to get !.the situation of Chancellor, and that the Chancellor (who had not the boldness to make a sacrifice for the sake of justice) wished. to keep up his emoluments, i out of a very natural anxiety, perhaps, to complete his million—(A laugh). He (Mr. Calcraft) had the greatest regard for that Gentleman who was his nearest neighbour—(Much laughing). He was as excellent a sporting country Gentleman, as one could wish to have near him; but es a politician, his con duct and advice inflicted great injuries on this coun try. The Ministers, he believed, had been taken in upon this business. Some unlucky Member of the Administration, from a firm persuasion that the Queen would have never come to this country, gave an undertaking that, in case she did come, the measure should be introduced. He would ask the :Noble Lord, was not this the fact? He did not expect, indeed, to extract any information from his Lordship ; but if smiling was to be construed into assent, certainly the Noble Lord did not deny the statement. He con- eluded by expressing his determination to use all the 1 means in his power to keep the Bill out of that House. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, said, he wished to call the attention of the House to the real question before them. He made some observations on the propriety of the House adopting the Resolution of his Noble Friend, as most convenient in every re spect ; and with respect to what he conceived to be an attack on the personal character of a Noble and Learned Lord then absent, he was sure the House would agree with him, that the judicial conduct of that Learned Judge jvas too well known to demand one 'word of defence. Mr. CALCRAFT, in explanation, denied having said anything of the conscience of the Lord Chan cellor. He was a good. udge to the back-bone! It was only against him, as a political character, that his (Mr. C. s) animadversions were directed. Lord FOLKSTONE concurred in every remark. of his Honourable Friend (Mr. C.) in opposition to 'the Bill of Pains and Penalties. lie animadverted tat some length on the unjust treatment of the. Queen. ~. With reference to the recent proceeding in the House' of Lords, he thought .it necessary to remind the House of the pledge giveu by the Noble Lord oppor r site, that if this were a conspiracy, he would exert I himself to probe it to the bottom. He hoped, when the proper time arrived, the case of inflicting the just penishment due to their wantonly and unneces-; sarily placing in jeopardy the whole country, would fall into able and competent hands. It the call of the House, could not be enforced, in case the Bill should pas's the house of Lords, he' thought that the Hoose would not do its dutyoroless it took upcin itself W . eurorce the call; and he was sure four-6fths of those who were on the otlier side of the House would Mr. WELLESLEY POI.* uuimadverted upon 1 the observations of the twolitinourable I%;enthers' who had recently spoken on the opposite' side of 'the House. He endeavoured to justif y e she eourseWhich 1 )4 4 ipeen...purpued by ' his •MajastyMinisters; whic h condemned as inflammatory, all premature diftus• sion upon the merits of the case. He likewise took . occasion to defend the character of the Lord Chan-• cellor, and said, that if he really answered the de. scription of the lion.Metnber opposite (Mr, Calcraft) he was a man unfit for the society of Gentlemen.— The same Hon. Member had ridiculed what he was pleaSed to call the perversion of the House of Commons into a Court of Appeal on the decision. of the House of Lords. if such were the inference which the. Hon. Gentleman drew from the facts, why was not the House of Commons represented to be a Court. of Appeal to the other branch of the Legislature in cases of Bills of Divorce, which usually originated in the House of Lords, and of course sent down to that House for its sanction? But this remark had heen extorted from him, solely with a view . to illus trate the assertion, that in seeking to vilify the cone duct of Ministers, some of the Gentlemen opposite had forgotten, in their zeal, all those -constitutional • principles which were so much the objects of their professed admiration. Mr. CALCRAFT again explained and said, that he understood Bills of Divorce always originated in that House. Mr.HOBHOUSE said, that it argued a very limited acquaintance with human nature in the Right Honour. able Gentleman who had just addressed the House, when he declared himself unable to comprehend how a very bad political character could consist with a ' very excellent private one, Dryden's character of Lord Shaftesbury, might have served to make this union of seemingly opposite qualities, somewhat in, ielligible— ‘‘ Yet fame deserv'd no enemy can grudge— " The Statesman we abhor, but praise the Judge: " In Israel's court ne'er sat an Abethdin, " With'more discerning eyes, or hands more clean !" He wished toask of the Noble Lord opposite, had he given orders that no more passports should be given to the witnesses who had deposed. against the Queen. After what had otcurred, the country ought to have a guarantee from the proper quarter, that these per sons would be forthcoming. for punishment in case that their perjuries deserved it. As it was 4 matter known to him, of his own knowledge, that one of the witnesses had sworn falsely, he was the more urgent upon this topic, •and hoped the Noble Lord would give.his assurance- that the witnesses would not be enabled to leave this tountry, as long as there • was a probability of proof being adduced that they• had committed peijury. He fully agreed with his Hop. Ft lend that it was not the Queen who was now on trial, but the Ministers. They were the real cul prits, and all that he could say to them was, " GOD give them a flood deliverance !" Mr. PETbIt MOORE rose, amidst loud cries of withdraw, and question. Ile declared his conviction, that the Bill of Pains and Penalties was a _Bill of lies and falsehood. • Every day convinced him more and more that the whole was a nefarious conspiracy, and • that his Majesty's Ministers were at the bottom of it. Mr. CREEVEY observed, it had been' said, that nut of the fund of £200,000, Which had been laid by . for the provision of £95,000 a-year to the Queen; the law expenses of her Majesty should be paid. NOW.; he was quite sure the [louse never voted that sum of, money with'the view that the legal expenses incurred in the process against her Majesty should be defrayed front that source, and, as far as his.i•ote went, such expenses never should be paid by such means, • • Mr. HOB1101:7SE asked 'whether his Majesty's Ministers bad taken measures to prevent any other witnesses who had been examined against the Queen from leaving the country ? Lord CASTLEREAGH said, that he and his'col, leagues regretted much that one of the witnesses against her Majesty had left the country, and added, that they were not only anxious to prevent the repe tition of such a circumstance, but that he would pledge himself that no occurrence of the kind should again take place. Mr. BENNETT asked whether there was not a power of detaining those witnesses in this country by law ? The ATTORNEY-GENERAL replied in the negative. Mr. BENNETT then began to express his regret and surprise that those witnesses who had perjured themselves--(Loaid cries of " Order, order'.) Mr. SCARLETT asked whether any arrange ment had been made to provide any place for the transacting the business of Westminster Hall in the ensuing Term ? The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said, the utmost accommodation would be afforded. Adjourned to the 23.1 of November, on which day the House is to be called over. THE EVENING -STAR. LONDON. : : WEDNESpAY, OCTOAER 18; 1820.- We . are necessarily compelled to be brief ig any observations which we -might wish to offer on the proceedings in Parliament yesterday, owing to the length of these proceedings, As, in the House of Lords strong efforts are made to prevent proofs being offered of a conspiracy against the Qualm; so also it appears, pretty evi dently, to be the intention of cmain 4idisl44ls, tq prevent any facilities being afforded by the ,Douse of Commons to detect any conspiracy but .such as may be formed by the Radicals. It agrees not With the atmosphere of some men to hear even an nuation, that posiibly a conspiracy- may be proved to have existed in another quarter, and of a very diabolical character. The time of the }louse of Lords a )yesterday, was occupied in disiussing points respecting the admissii bility of evidence offered • for the pm-pose of proving a conspiracy against her klmssii.. •Some . people have no objection to hear evidence, no matter how procured, 'Charging the quest; with pima, but cannot bear to hear evidence of conspiracy an4u subornation of wiKesses again 4 her Mataa**!- 7 —* The • fact is, as we gated yesterday, the acicnuipihenv , selves are now on trial before the tribunal of public 'ppi n ion-4 -tribpstal against whose aWilledribees is -al? •• . .‘ ~ . .. • X .