Star. — London, England, 1830-03-31 00:00:00

5°051 acres, which had been rescued from the sea, divided the en tire property into tenements, at a rent of 10,0001. a year ; and he ( llr. Harvey) had reason to know. that that gentleman had re ceived at his last audit 9,000!. The whole Island now consisted of six thousand acres of the finest and cheapest land in the kingdom ; and -what he wished to ask was, why the commissioners of Woods and Forests, with all the land revenue at their disposal, had not expended this 10,0001. as well as the Reverend J. Lonadale, and by this means have so enhanced the valise of this property. The next subject to which he should call the attention of the house was, the improvidence of the commissioners in the letting of houses belonging to the crown. (The hon. member here mentioned a number of houses in the neighbourhood of Pall-mall and Piccadilly, amount. ing in all to 31.) These had been let at an average rent of 1251. a rear— a sum which, for houses in the most valuable part of London, every gentleman in that house must know was a most inadequate re turn. In Holborn, near the Turnstile, there were nineteen houses at an average rent of 50L a-year, which lie had known to have been estimated at 1091. each. In Spring-gardens there are three houses of nearly the same size—the noble lord opposite, who occupied one, could inform the house on that subject—their rental was only 2361. a-year, with a condition for expending 560 E in re pairs. In Huntingdon, tenements had been let to Sir J. Throg. morton for 1071. a-year, whose estimated value had been 1,1041. He should now consider the inadequate consideration which had been received by the commissioners for real estates; and he wished to call the attention of the house to their singular mode of disposing of the real property of the'crown. In the year 1812, the manors of Eltham anti Queen's Chief, with all the courts, royalties, tenements, &c. thereunto dependant—and every gentleman knew how the value of an estate was enhanced by those privileges— had been sold for 20 years' purchase. A part of Newmarket race-course had been similarly disposed of ; and, as if this ar rangement had not been sufficiently tempting to the purchasers and detrimental to the interests of the crown, the land tax had been redeemed by the commissioners at 39 years' purchase. In 1809 the singular transaction respecting the Rockingham Forest estate, to which he had already alluded occurred. By the 36th of George 111. the Commissioners bad been authorised to sell that property, for an adequate sum, to the Earl of Westmoreland. But from the year 1760 up to 1805, it appeared that he had only paid a rent of 71. 53. 3d. Since then a more appropriate rent had been paid ; but on a sum of several thousand pounds due by his lordship for the estimated value of the timber on the estate, he had only paid an interest of five per cent. while his advantages on that part of these transactions were equal to ten per cent In this manner, and by such proceedings, the Commissioners of his Majesty's Woods and Forests had the power directly to influence and coerce one half the members of that house, while much of the other half could not avoid being af fected by their power. From the year 1786 up to the present time, he found that out of 408 of those Crown tenants, 200 were persons of title. There must have been something advantageous in this con nection, beyond the information laid before that house, to silence the scruples which many of those gentlemen must have felt at holding the subordinate rank of middle men and under tenants. The hon. member then mentioned a few of the names of those to whom he had alluded ; amongst others, those of St. Albans, Bathurst, his Royal Highness the Duke of Gloucester, the Duke of Newcastle, Sir Barnard, &c. &c. Having th us alluded to the improvi. dent manner in which the Commissioners of Woods and } °rests had leased out the crown lands, the honourable member said he should now turn to the converse of the proposition, and endea vour to show to the house, that their purchases had b een equa ll y liable to censure. But rat he would ask, whether those cons. missioners had power to dispose of the crown lands revenue as they pleased, without consulting the will of that house? He understood that a public-house, called the Whestsheaf, In the neighbourhood of Virginia Water, had been purchased for 5,000 f. and afterwards let to Alvan. Rainsbottom and Co. for fifty pounds a-year—making a return of one per cent. for their expenditure—(hear)-40,0001. had been paid to the Duke of Port. land fur the Alarylebone rectory ; 21,0001. for Moat Park, leading to Windsor ; and 3,8501. for a house in Privy-gardens for Lord de Clifford, at the time when they had sold their own houses for a much less proportionate sum. Other messuages, near Windsor, had been purchased fro m Si r J. C oventry, f or 7,3501. and resold to Mr. Western-a for 6,0501. In the year 1819, the Duke of Richmond being desirous to give, up his interest In his house in Privy-gardens, the Commissioners agreed to allow hint 5,0001. for it. with the exception of 7001. which had been owing front his Grace to them from the year 1791. It might be said I that at the time when many of those transactions had taken plain the want of a proper system of valuation had led the commiesionens into error ; that the repetition of similar circumstances could not again occur ; as, for the future, all estimates should be taken es oath. He did not think that the oaths of individual valuators were to be depended on. He had himself experienced their fallaciounims in the valuation of a house at Clapton, upon which the event of his election to his seat in t h at h ouse had inged; on which occasion dif. ferent valuations on oath had differed in the most extravagant man ner. As another instance of the truth of his opinion on this subject, in the year 1806, Sir J. Granger had purchased the manor of Eltham for 3,923 L and had afterwards, notwithstanding_ a valu ation, received a premium of f. 5,0001. on his bargain. The Hon. Member then went into a calculation of the Irish land revenue, which he estimated in quit-rents and Crown lands, at one million and a half. To this should be added a sum of 500,0001. for the' amount of remainders and reversions of considerable value, and or every description of property, which would soon accrue— making, in all, a sum of two millions of available rens nue. From 1826 to 1829 the receipts were 1,449,1201. thus making the total receipt, from 1793 to 1829, 5,883,7411. The Honourable Gentleman proceeded to state how much of this had been made available fo public purposes. For ten years from 1793 to 1804, all that had gone to the revenue was 10,1201. • from 1806 :o 1815, a sum o f a b out 215,0001. ; from 1815 to 18118, out of up. wards of 2,000,0001. received, the whole sum applied to the public Tre.tsury was 8,6241. ; and from 1826 to 1829, during which time they had received 1.000,0001. of money, not one farthing had the public benefited, so that the balance against the commissioners of woods and forests was near 5,000,0001. but of this several disburse ments were to be given credit for, such as Buckingham Palace, that ornstr.ent of the Park, 596,1691.; together with improvement of !ousts, and extraordinary expenses, a uamonting in the whole to some thing Inure than four millions, /caving balance of 500,0001. for the expenses of n:anagement during the last thirty quire. If any one looked to a course of this management, and to the cheap and simple ,tanner in which rents were ordinarily collected, the comparison would at once show the extravagance, for, upon an average of three year., the cost of management, with law charges, &c. amounted to about 1 66,0001. being a fraction more than 20 per cent. on the rents of the esetes. The actual value of the land revenue of the Croon, unconnected with the department of Woods and Forests, and with those portions devoted to Royal purposes, would be, including 130 manors, which he valued at 1,0001. each—free /teed lands, estimated at 500,0001. a-year—waste lands, ntents on enclosures bills, church livings, would, hi the whole, amountmoan to 17,1365,2001. The hon. gentleman, a f ter d we lli ng upon si r lice of examining into this subject, which he said was 4 :eutnntended to the good opinion of the hou se by i ts ten d ency to produc e t h e most beneficial and pure specimen of political economy, tnemittch as it w ou ld add to the revenue witho ut taxat i on, moved that a sel ect committee be appointed to examine into the condition and the management of the land revenue of the crown, which was at Present committed to the care of the commissioners of woods and Sir EDWARD KNATCHBULL hoped that his noble friend (Lord Lowther) would pardon him for following the hon. member tor Colchester, as he wished to allude to one case mentioned by the bon. gentleman, for the purpose of putting it in a true point of 'mew. Ile meant the case of Sunk Island ; and with respect to the character of the Rev. John Lonstiale, he would only bay that it was such as must command the respect of every one. Sunk Island, in, reign of Charles 11. was a mere bank of sand, and contained ss,su 100 acres. In consideration of the loyalty and attachment of rue Ismily. it was granted in that reign to them at the rent of M. a ten', at.d the lease had subsequently been renewed by the amnia and exits:, to the exertions of the family, and sums of UMW% amounting in the whole to 30,0001. laid out by them, it NW amounted to 5,000 acres, for which a rent of 3,2001. a year wall e the crown. The lamellate family had, moreover, to 111 action tgainst them, or rather against the crows, at an aniSINIO fle mere than 6001. and these being the facts, he did not this! either the crown or the lessees ought to be excised of unfair • if, as the hon, gentleman said, the last rental did amount toff, t i hr great exp ense t h ey h a d gone to, and the rent of 3,2001. a Yvvthe crown, this was no more t h an a f air and reasonable ad . ,O. • Upon another point alluded to, he should merely say, that wJti in the last year or two some crown lands were offered for sale, I :. ili ch ., ll e (Sir E. Knatchbull) had a desire to purchase. Ha sent slaas n en i t to offer for Lim, but t h e lands were sold for from 4001. to ore than he wished to give for then; and this, he though; and r a sin cere desire, oo the part of the contenissionem of Woods west., mus h to make as has was possible of the crown lands 12tLivslltloit; ItENTINCK II wished to set right statement made re tvive " , s case o f al arylehone, for which his noble father had re aml for the truth o f his statement he called on the insmber for Liverpool to vouch. His noble father wished dispose of his interest in that living, and having it valued by his 'lle t.ent and surveyor, the return ma d e was t h at it was worth 4000 1. at 1 , 1 1 3 , s d .n o ffered 42,0001. or 44,0001. for it by t h e Di ssenters, it lather could not endow from his love towards the Church, " t ar fo e t es 4 b e _ he sake of 3 ,000 1 or 4,0001. it should fall into bad hands, ga it. it ,Zes s el: li ly wrote to the right ,hon. Member for Liverpool, Croon would take it, he would prefer that they should 10,1` 01 1 1 :_l_iv,inn, and accordingly the purchase was made for 40,0001. 0cd4,1 less than the sum offered in the market. •OIVT..IIF.R said that the honourable member for Col -1 au notified, for the two last sessi ons , his intention of sub. mining to the house a motion be bad that day brought forward. He was aware of the honourable gentleman's industry, not only by the researches he had made, for with respect to these he had informed the house that he diligently studied the state of the land revenues of the crown, but by explanations and allusions made to suit his own purposes , while he omitted other parts of the documents which would have explained his charges. Thus the honourable gentleman, in alluding to the book of 1786, served his purpose by referring to a document where every thing was confused, without any reference to counties; but if the honourable gentleman had chosen to refer to the for the last thirty years, he would have found n o t m ere l y the referred to, but the different properties in London described under the heads of their respective parishes. The hon. gentleman certainly imposed a considerable task upon him in endeavouring to follow him, because he had begun with the Heptarchy, and came down to the time of William 111. In that, however, the hon. member could h a ve f oun d no great diffic u lty, because every thing he had mentioned was to be found in the reports, and was before commented upon by Middleton, Lord Barham, and by Fordyce. It was useless for the hon. gentle man to enter into one part of the subject, because It was impossible to find a remedy for the prodigality of Charles II co for the partiality of Wm. 111. towards those whose exertions had secured him the throne; neither would he (Lord Lowther) attempt to defend the jobs of the time of Geo. I. for they were most gross, and such as would not be permitted in the reign of George IV. (Hear.) Neither would he deny the necessity, in 1786, of the declaration that the crown lands were in a bad situation, and required great improve ment; but he wo u ld say that since 1786 those revenues had been gradually increasing. In 1797, they were 45,1331. in 1802 they were 49,0001. in 1805, they were 59,0001 at a later period they were 250,0001. and they were at present 271,0001. That showed the efficiency of the commission given by Mr. Pitt ; and there were still fair prospects of the revenues thing. notwithstanding the exaggerated statements of the hon. member. In the first instance he would go through_the notes he had taken, in the order of the honourable member's speech. In his account of Henry the Eighth's time, although he did not see what that had to do with the present, he agreed with him as he did with respect to Cromwell, who sold the crown lands at seven or eight years' purchase, which was one of the reasons why Charles the Second rescinded several of the bargains. The hon. gentleman's allegation, with respect to a noble lord (we believe the Earl of Aluigeave,) and the sum of 20,0001. was partially correct ; but he was mistaken as to the 1,2001. a-year out of the Consolidated Fund. The lion. gentleman then went to Newark ; but he (Lord L.) would say that, if the hon. member would produce any person to give the increased rent he spoke of, he would undertake the responsibility, and accept it. But he knew that no such thing would be done, for he was well as quainted with Newark, and there was not one there who would come forward with a deposit. The honourable gentleman would lead the house astray la quoting the rent of houses in London. because he calculated not merely on the ground.. rent, but on the value of the houses : that was unfair, and k might be estimated by the allusion that had been made to Spring garden terrace. There was an old house there which he (Lord L.) had at 2501. a year on the ground.rent ; now he rented it at that sum ; it rested on his hands for four or five years, and be had been obliged to give as good as 5001. to have it taken off his hands. That would show the exaggerated statement of the hon. member. He was aware that some of the estates were capable of great improvement. The Crown stood, with respect to none of them, in so good a position as it did with respect to Sunk Island. The improvements had been executed in a mann er hi g hl y cre di ta b le to the lessee. As to Eltham, that was one of the estates which he anticipated would be worth a considerable deal more than it was at present. The honourable gentleman] had himself visited the estate of Rosedale. (Hear.) He (Lord L.) never was at that estate, but the surveyor blamed the office of woods for not disposing of it in lots. It was an estate which was a desirable property for a gentleman. In the Charing cross Act, government took power to sell certain estates for the purpose of improvement. This estate was in a part of the country not very accessible, and it was not every person who would pun. chase it. As to the public-house bought at Virginia Water, he (Lord L.) admitted that it was an extravagant price; but the public-house stood in Windsor-park, fifty yards from Virginia Nrater, and in his Majesty's favourite drive. If any purchase wasexcusabh., it was that. As to Lord Westmorelaunl's purchase of Rockingham, the hon. gentleman had given a history of it Rom 1704 to 1806. The land was purchased in 1774, for 17,0001. Lord Westmoreland having, in 1764, bought the timber on the freehold. He would not enter into the particu lars as to Merton and Waak.. He was aware that it was capable of improvement. He (Lord L.) knew the estate as well as the hon. gentleman's agent who had surveyed it in the sum. mer. He did not think that the bon. member had made out any I grounds for going into a Committee. As to the expellees of the es. tablishment, he was at issue with the hon. gentleman. Instead of being 50 per cent. it was not more than 20 per cent. It was dif. ferent from a private establishment. In a public office every letter must be copied and registered. The bon. member had mixed up in his statement all the old offices. From 1815 to the present time offices had been reduced, so that there was a saving of 10,0001. a year. Formerly there were two Secretaries the outranger had 1,0001 a-year, and that bad been reduced. There was a saving in one office of 4,0001. a-year, and many others were in the course of revision. In a few years there would be still farther' reductions. The noble lord said that he would not further detain the house, and submitted that the motion ought not to be agreed to. Colonel DAVIES said that, whatever impression might have been made upon the house, the speech of the honourable member for Colchester was calculated to make a deep impression upon the public at large. lie had made out a case which imperiously called -for investigation. He, for one, thanked the hon. member for his able statement, and the extent and depth of his research. He (Col. D.) should confine himself to the report, and should be able to show that if abuses existed in former times, they did not cease to exist at the time the report had been brought up. From what was con. Mined in the report, it appeared that there had been a most improvident expenditure of revenue. There had not only been no revenue within the last few years, but enormous debts had been incurred. The commisaionets stated, in their sixteenth report, that they estimated the crown lands at 400,0001. per annum. This statement was confirmed by an elaborate report. The whole charges for management were 36,0001. In 1826 the total revenue of the royal forests was 53,1441. and the expenses of collecting it, 36,8551. In the following year the of collecting the revenue was 1,2001. more than the receipts. (W e e:::.; Every year the expenses had been much greater than they ought to have been, and the subject. in his opinion, was one deserving the most serious inquiry. He would not say anything about the " gew. gaws" that had been thought of, but go to other items of expenditure. He found that in the year 1828 St. James's and Hyde Parks cost the country 10,0001 Regent's Park coot 6,0001. Windsor Park, 20,6001, Richmond Park, 12,0001. In short, the whole expenses during that year amounted to 73,2001. In the year 1827, the expenses were 92,7001. In 1828, 116,1431. Surely, then, these were sums that the House would never allow to be !pandered away without inquiry. It would n ever suffer the sub ject to pass like a summer's cloud. The Hon. Member for Col. chester had not exaggerated his statement. The total expenditure of the land revenue during three. years amounted to 1,388,1681. 665,0001 was the ordinary revenue per year, and when 1,300,0001. same to be expended, sur e ly it was a subject demanded inquiry. The Noble Lord had alluded to the improvements at Charing-cross and Regent street. Now the estimate for the last-named improve ment was 368,000 L when the actual cost was 1,803,0001—(hear). — He (Colonel Davis) objected to the whole manner in which this part of the public bugling was transacted. If the letting of the ground rents had not been entrusted to Mr. Nash, in. stead of their bringing in 36,0001. per year they would barn realised three times that amount. The estimate for the Charing eras improvements was 1,147,0001. Now he understood that nearly that sum had been already expended. He thought, therefore, that a committee teinvestigate all these matters was necessary. He did nu think that tEe disposing of ground rents ought to be left to one individual ; they ought to be put up to auction, and sold to the highest bidders, and he must say it would be most ungracious of go vernment, if they refused the inquiry. The hon. member for Col chester bad his cordial thanks in bringing forward the present :no. titre, and, if the professions of ministers were not idle nonsense, it would meet with but little opposition. He had entered the house at the commencement of the session with a determination to support the present government, but if it refused inquiry in such a ease as this he could not give it his honest and con scie ntious support. He hoped that the house would agree to the motion. Mr. ARBUTHNOT then rose, but spoke in so low a tom that it was impossible to hear correctly what he stated. We understood him to airy that the statement made by the bon. member far Wor cester (Col. Davies) was not at all correct, or glue fairly ; that the business of the office of Woods and Forests was conducted in the most economical manner. The lion. member then vindicated the conduct of Mr. Nash respecting the improvements in Regent street. It was true that they cost three times the amount of the estimate at first given in, but that arose frMn ciralmlstances which could not by pouibßity be foreseen, as it was not possibl e to al. mate the value of the good-will of persons in possession *of homes that would be required. He Would "Mare the house that ehe greatest economy was observed in the office of Woods And guests; that no work was undertaken without having aeveral sod mulls, and which estimates were generally found to be correct. 'With upper to the improvements in the Strand, Mr. Nash'esdamied Apo et 746,0001. and ae early as could be ascertained; they irpudd not exceed tint sum by mom shout 95,0081. and which mess area, as in the ease of Regent-street, by the wens Obtained; by th e maims tenants. Alter some Geiser observations, tg hie, number emelatied by saying he was ready and 'hoed" be happy Wrapover egy o j on elemis Mat might he asked. DAVIES estplained. Mr. MIMIC supported the Motion, and contended that there was - general milinsasgensent In, the whole deportment ; but this, how. ever, he was not inclined to attribute to the noble lord who presided over the woods and forests. The system itself was liable to great abuse, and ought to be new modelled. With respect to the supply of timber which the crown forests furnished to the easy, it was trifling in the extreme. Let any man only put 'Ton the table the number of loads—(loud laughter) ; well, what he tneunt was—let any man only put upon the table a return of the number of loads, and then the house would be convinced of the fact which he WI stated. If the uantity of timber which these forests suplied le the navy were we q ighed with silver, he maintained that silv er wadi be found equal to it in weight. What he should propose was, ant all the crown lands, except such as were necessary for the asonure. dation of the sovereign, should be sold off, and a fund might both. created which should go towards reducing the national debt. Mr. HUSKISSON protested against the length to which some gentlemen would carry the interference of the house, even on sub. jects over which parliament had no just or legitimate control. He denied that they had any right to dispose of the hereditary revenue of the crown without the express consent of the crown, or that they had any sight to dispose of it beyond the life of the present sovereign. The honourable member for Montrose complained that the crown property was neglected, that the management of it was very remiss and improvident ; and he complained that, in consequence of that mismanagement, no timber was sent into the dock-yards for our ships. The honourable gentleman ought to recollect that the plantations were but twenty years old ; and in that time they certainly could not be expected to produce timber fit for ship-building. It was true that, from the reign of King William down to the time when the present plantations were pro jected, the forests were very much neglected ; but during the war, when oak became much wanted, the government turned its most di. ligent attention to this subject, and there were now 40,000 acres of plantations, which were in a most flourishing condition, and which would, in due tim e , f urn i s h an a b undant supply of the most va luable timber for national purposes. It was not the fault of the present government that former governments had not paid all the attention which they might have done to this portion of the na tional property. He would say that at present the woods and fo rests were as well managed as such property could possibly be. It must, no doubt, be attended with large expenses, but those ex. peaces were kept within the narrowest stale consistent with the ne. cessary preservation and improvement of the plantations. The wood. men, for instance, received only 15s. a week, and efficient men could not be procured on lower terms. He did not know on what grounds the honourable gentleman assumed that the Crown lands ought now to be worth 700,0001. a year. Their valu. 'Atkin in 1793 was stated at 400,0001. a year. However, he had no doubt that the Crown estate in the metropolis would, on the falling. in of the leases, be worth 500,0001. a year. The ground.rent was worth 100,0001. and he thought he was not too sanguine in estimat. deg each house as being worth five times as much as the ground upon which it stood. The remainder of the Crown property—including lands, manors, and woods —would be about 250,0001. or 300,0001. more ; so that the whole Crown property would, in its reversionary in. terest, be worth about 800,0001. instead of 400,0001. He did not think It necessary to follow the hon. member for Colchester through all his calculations and statements. It was only necessary for the house to recollect, that when the civil list was granted, in the time of Queen Anne, a power was given to the Crown to alienate the lands coming under the denomination of Crown property. But an immense change was made by Mr. Pitt's Act, in 1794 ; and he begged gentlemen to reflect upon the effects of that change upon the influence of the Crown in that house, and generally in the country. In 1786, the whole of that property, which was now said to be worth 400,0001. did not let for 16,0001. and the Act to which be had alluded had the effect of depriving the Crown of all the info. ence and patronage arising to it from dispensing these possessions. —By parting with that influence, the Crown gave up greater power than by almost any other measure that could be in. stanced. The honourable gentleman complained of the manage. meet of the crown property, particularly in the granting of yew newals. He (Mr. Huskisson) could contradict the supposition of mismanagement in this respect, by referring to a variety of in. stances. He knew of many lessees of this property who, having held their leases before the Act of 1794, refused to take renewals of them afterwards, because they did not find the terms advan tageous. The woods and forests gave no such easy or profitable bargains as hon. gentlemen supposed. What was the effect of the Act of 1754 ? It provided that, en the expiration of any lease of house, manor, or lands, the persons acting in the management of the crown estates should employ a surveyor, or surveyors, who should, upon their oaths, value the estate at its rack rent. The estimate was theit handed to the office of woods and forests, who had no option of controul over it. The act went on to oblige them to oar a renewal of the lease to the former lessee, at the valuation of the surveyors, with an abatement of five per cent.; and, if he is.l fused it, they were then to give it to the occupiers, or to any one else who would take it at its full estimated value. He could men. tion several cases in proof of this uniform practice. The Marquis of Stafford, for instance, held an estate at Chelsea, which, on the expiration of the lease, he refused to take at the abatement of five per cent., and consequently that property was, as was done In all such cases, let to the occupiers, or others. In short, the Woods and Forests always insisted upon the best rent that could possibly be obtained ; and be would assert that private gentlemen, in the management of their estates, were not near so strict as those who had the management of that de partment. Ica order to confute this position, the hon. member bad referred to an estate in Kent, the manor of Eltham ; but how was that property circumstanced ? It had been let about five-and-twenty years ago to the present lessee, who had also been the former lessee. The rent was 3,9001. a-year. What was the result ? In times of golden prospects this individual rented it out in small portions, and be got a premium of from 26,0001. to 30,0001. But mark the M. quel. Before he (Mr. Huskisson) left the office of Woods and Forests, this lessee, John Shaw, came to the Commission. era, and said hit he was unable to get from his under. tenants any thing like the rent that he was obliged to pay, and, therefore, he prayed them to make him a reduction. But what was the reply ? The Commissioners said, " No; you have taken the property as a speculation —you have taken it fee better for worse—and if you cannot make as much of it now as in more prosperous times, you must put up with the lass." This wee their invariable principle. They never made an abatement unless the party requiring it were the occupying tenant, and, in such a cue, they fbund ft a mauer not only of justice but policy to do so. All that he could say, with respect to the various cases referred to by the honourable member for Colchester, and the general charges made by the honourable member for Montrose, was that, if they would put their'fingers upon any one particular case in which they sup any of what they called jobbing or mismanagement to Erv e e d taken place, he would beg of his honourable friends in office to runlet* the Hon. Gentleman with every paper that could throw any light upon the case, and he was quite sure his Honourable Friends on the bench below him would be most happy to comply. But he only prayed Gentlemen not to make general charges which had no foundation. The Hon. Gentlemen complained that the Com missioners of Woods and Forests were u neglectful of the public interests, in respect to those Crown Lands which they disposed of, as in those 'which they kept in their own management; and refe rence had been made to the arrangement with the Earl of Mulgrave; but the Hoe. Gentleman forgot to state that the Noble Earl had paid a sum of 97,0001. and was now paying 1,2001. a year. He did not undert a k e t o say whether this was the full value of the property for which it was given as the consideration, nor was it De. eessuy for the defence of those at present in office that he should say so, for that arr a n gement was made before 1794 ; but he only said that the honourable gentleman ought to have ascertained the real state of the wee Ineorelre used it for the purposes of his own ar. gument. Reference had also been made to the case of the Sari at Westmoreland, in which it was said that 9001. a-y_ear bad been sold for 13,0001. B u t h ow did that case stand ? His noble friend, bad In the Forest of Rockingham, a very ancient right of this description. He was entitled to the timber until it reached a certain she, but at that size or dimension, it became the pro. of the crown. The consequence was, that a great patine party o f timber was cut down by the crown, and the noble enelp in his own defence, was obliged to cut d own the trees beforet2 reached the stipula ted growth. The arrangement which was n grew out of this complicated opposition of rights; but be multi assure the hon. gent. that, so far was it from being safkimetig to the Earl of Westmoreland, that he for a long dine as. murred to it. Now uto the prices obtained for manors, it should be recollected that some of them entailed a heavy expense, heti the noes ei7 of holding Courts, and, therefore, it wee *al fir dispose of them on any terms that could be got. But they were always mid by public ask or by scaled tenders. He knew o'. tamer where, in centequente of this mode of riesling, when the was expected to be about 1001. it tumid mat to be 4;1101111. The boost of Exmoor, which bets saw beenght as. ramie a.year, and which they wephi ts been 810210 at slum Ires e h old by foolorlodwhitabetri: wen s a d, kiral was gW g was sorry to say that, in getting rid et the ad arab. ippae_roanore, they generally f e lLJ nto t h e hands Ir. Mil mellow attorneys, who tuned them to the annoyance held mar Sm. The boa _rodents' bed referred to t= of Blebstead ea having prated unfairly by selling the remainikit ar the lease of his house in Privy-wdens. He would, in a lb* wattle, explain that transaction. Tbe home in Priv/P had ilooliod to the Riolumad fund/ Ox malty yarn. elm. .t wm keened by ambient, aid the Duke did not re ld , but continued for some. due to cum a put which had r Wed:froth the conflagratioo. When be wished to give up Butra valuation yea ramie, a nd it Rao eatipiated at 3,000 L Cotiamissiesers of Woods and Forests said; 44 Vou were tobTlso rebuild the hems, and we will dance *ma the sum which i n l to,poy 04. Sthe rronaitiler of tbe lean the &Mount which ought to nave seem notpendixi. He was sure that no o w n th em e on cuukd which would admit of a similar explanation on the part' of the woods and forests. In the estimate made by the hon. member opposite, he had taken the re venue o f t h ese par i shes, so yurcl•ased, at 8,0001. annually, and stated the expense of last year at 12,0001. forgetting that a great part of that was only an occa sional outlay in building and repairs, which would not occur again for yeats. Instead of being an overgrown parish, it had by these means been divided into four parishes; and so little could Cohere. anent be charged with a greedy hankering after patronage, that ma out of the four parishes had been annexed to the patronage of tile See of London. There was nothing more absurd than the Wen often reiterated by the hon. mover, and the hon. member for Aloe - trose--" sell the whole of the Crown property." For first, it could not be attempted except it win by the consent of the Crown, end i-s positive recommendation. The grand ground of dispute was. s, to the propriety of carrying this revenue to the account of the Corso_lidated Fund, which it was allowed had not been done for sonic years, and hence it was assumed that there was son* Jelt , on te suspect some abuses might have been practised in this OCrat!. ment. Now the fact was, that all the money expended ... Buckingham-house and the Strand improvements had been, in first instance, applied for to Parliament, and sanctioned by by i., vote, ere this appropriation of the grounds of the Crown property had been made by Government. Much, however, he would ac. knowledge, of misconception and obloquy would be obviated were the whole receipts of this revenue paid over to the Consolidated Fund, and he would recommend the adoption of that plan to his right 1:0::. friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, to set the question of abuse at rest, and defy even suspicion in future. It was another pregn proof of the inconceivable blundering of the hon. members for Cal a:ester and Montrose, that they should presume to talk of selling a:1 the estates of the Crown, or that part, at least, which was called the waste lands of these estates. For instance, Epping Forest, which, if sold, said they, at 61. per acre, would create an enewsuou. fund. Now, what rights had the crown ?—for it had no property in the soil—it merely possessed a right to the herbage used by the royal deer. The right of the soil here, or at the New Forest, or Dean Forest, was not in the crown, so that it had sca rce ly any thing to sell. It was p re p osterous to hear of its sale producing any thing at all ;—no one w ou ld purc h ase such a mere raked right en herbage for deer; and over the New Forest the only right re served was, that of setting apart 0,000 acres for the growth of naval timber. On Dean Forest the crown possessed only th,- right to the large timber, the Duke of Crofton being proprie tor of the whole of the underwood ; and the patronage belong ed to the neighbouring parishes, about 100 in number; whilst at Sherwood forest the crown asserted no title except to herbage for royal deer, and not a single deer was to be seen there for years past—(a laugh.) He begged the house to abstain front meddling with royal forests, from the sad specimen of ill success they had met with in disafforesting that once splendid appendag: of the dignity of the crown, Windsor forest, now cut inn. square allotments, robbed of its fine ornamental and useful timber, the growth of ages, and never yet having realised ti..- expence of its inclosure--(hcar.) There were now about 41,001 - acres of these forests under timber, which had been pro nounced by the Duke of Portland—whose competency to de cide, from his own success in his vast plantations, no one wunii • question—to be far finer than any timber rte himself possessed. hour might arrive, as it had arrived before, when the country niii;ht be saved the regret and the apprehension it once experienced last war, lest the supply of this sort of timber for our navy might fail us. Such was the conduct of the present management of the crown lands, in this instance, that, whilst their appropriation had been made by the honourable members the subject of a sneer, far more intelligent and experienced individu a ls h a d consi dered this management a decided proof of the ability and integrity of those intrusted with this very important charge. Sir JOHN SEBRIGHT commented with great severity on the waste of public money which had taken place at Buckingham House. The only atonement that could be made to the insulted taste of the public would be, to plant the palace out, so that it might not be visible. Mr. W. SMITH said it would be, he was sure, quite opposed to the desire of the illustrious owner if the wishes of all persons, high and low, relative to. the opening front Waterloo-place into tit. Jamea's-park were not complied with. In fact, if it were not opened, he would move an address himself to the crown, to learn by whose direction this desirable approach to the park had been prevented from forming part of the design of the improvements on which such enormous sums were now squandering. Mr. RIDLEY COLBORNE certainly thought a pledge had been given him when he addressed the right hon. gentleman on this subject, that it was to be understood the passage through Wa terloo-place should be opened to the accommodation of all foot passengers. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL maintained the House had no more right to divest, by its vote, the Crown of its Church property, as proposed by the Hon. Member opposite, than to rob any Hon. Member there of his ancestral estate. By the settlement made with his present Majesty, on his accession to the throne it was true he had resigned his title to the Crown Lands , in con s id e ration of what the advisers of the Crown thought an equivalent, but on the demist those rights and that title would revive. It was no time at this mo ment to advise a sale of the whole of those ancient domains, or even a part of those Crown lands, which it was hoped would shortly, an. der the present management, produce rents equal, or nearly so, to the maintenance of the dignity, state, and splendour of t h e British Crown. Mr. D.W. HARVEY replied ; after which a division took place. when there appeared— For the motion Against it Majority Lord F. L. GOWER moved foe leave to Wag in a bill to amend the Irish Constabulary Act. His object was to transfer the con stabulary appointments in Ireland from the magistracy to the gu- VUDlnitnt. After a few words from Mr. 8. Ricz, Mr. TaAN T Mr. Jo H sox, and sir. Dawson, leave was given t o b r i ng i n the bilL The other coders of die day were then disposed of, and the bons( adjourned at a quarter before Two. LIST of the MINORITY of 124, who voted on Sir J. Graham's Motion, on the 29th day of March, 1330, for ABOLISHING the OFFICE of LIEUTENANT -GENERAL, of the OR D. N A NCK Althorp, Lord Fauberley, J. N. Hobart., A. W. Attwood, M. Forteseue, Hon.G.M. Ramsden, J. C. Burrell, Sir C. Fyier. T. B. Ramsbottoin, J. Burrell, W. Gordon, R. Rice, T. S. Baring, Sir T. Grant, Rt. Hon. C. Bickford, W. Baring, F. Grant, R. Ridley, Sir K. W. Baring, W. B. H eneage , G. F . Robinson, Sir G. Beaumont, W. F. Hobhouse, JC. Robinson, G. R. Blandford, Marquis Honywood, P. Russell, Lord J. Buck, L. Howard, H. Rumbold, C. E. Benett, J. • Howick, Lord Sefton. Lord Bernal, R. Hume, J. Scott, Hon. W. H. Brownlow, C. Jeplisno. C. Sibtborp. CoL Burdett, Sir F. Keck, Legh Smith, W. Bentinck, Lord G. Kemp. T. R. Smith, V. Birch, J. Killeen, Lord Smith, R. Bright, Henry Knatchbull,Smith, J. Buxton, J. J. Lebouchere, Henry Stanley, E. Boston, T. F. Lamb, Hoc. G. Thomson, C. P. Bankes, Henry Lambert, J. 8. Thompson, P. B. Cave, 0. Lawley, F. Tomes, J. Cavendish, W. Lest er , B. Towns end, Lord C. . Carter, 3. Littleton, E. Vyvyan, Sir R. Calthorpe, Hon. A. L eon i a !, T. B. Waldman, Ald. Canning, Rt. Hon. S Lloyd, Sir Z. Wood. Alderman Calvert, N. Lumley, J. S. Wood, C Clifton, Lord Moberly, J. Wilbraham, G. Clive E. - Moberly, Col. Wrottesley. Sir J. Oilbirne, N. R. Marshall, W. Warburton, H. Dais. Col. T. Martin, J. Whitmore, W. W. Ornerier, R. D. Manyatt, J. Wells, J. Dawson A. Mario:tha n k s , S. Whitbread , S. Cliekso , W. I. Milton, Lord Wetherell, Sir C. Tholes°, J. E. Macdonald, Sir J. Wigram, W. Da Cane. P, Monck, J. E. Warrender, Sir G. Dudes, Hon. T. Morpeth, Lord Tatum. Dyads*, Hon. Sir R. Nugent, Lord Graham, Sr J. Dlincombe, Hon. W. Ord, W. Dick Q. Parnell, Sir H. itAILID 011. Dickinami, W. &adonis, BW. Calvert, C.. Ebriogton, Lord Philip s , Si r G. Tennyson, C. Elks, Hoe. G. A. Philips, G. Newport, Sir J. Encombe, Lord l'onsoohy, Hots. F. Rowley, Sir W. anoin t Lord title., Sir. Rt. Oben*, Lon! F. Ram, J. Protheroe. E. Esilo, 4. 211111111111111112.1. 1 mm ', . HOUSE OF COMMONS—Taft P4Y. NQTICIIB OF MOTIONS. 14 IT. Bertiesig Eoel—to allidy he leave to b4pi Ilp a Bill to con. solidate sad mind the Laos rdittiOS to Torpry. Mr. Hasp ant for aR l t etam ehe informations insti. bold under do Malkin Act. Mr. Hohltsoho—to sive for Returns sbowiss to what Liabilities the Bask's), Ellshod y' tats ' • Mi. Mem —lossil l to hdos in aUP bt WW I area . eattind to Mood ' of the Ael Maio. lit. F. 87. fir tbe Adolohivedos -Amish aria :dire die2seetator , to " bela :2:::=is it Mi. ' Wove*/ hare to VP* la a Bill fir the better Yessoadest of doe Olin ilium*" of di Mitts- I BwPfir— ostamptiElitir T ilf "V ' • Ways and Moros—dissr: