Star. — London, England, 1806-05-22 00:00:00

• • Y. s ?ARLMMENTART PROChADYAGS. HOUSE OP COMMONS, WEDNESDAY, MAY If. A new writ was ordered to be Iffued for Welto'. -eistid, in the room of Michael Le Firming, dreeafed. POtta LAWS. Mr. WHITBREAD role to give notice, that early in the next Sefton of Parliament he firmld have the honour of preparing Some regoiationa for the amelio ration of the Poor Laws of this country. He hoped to be indulged in a few words of explanation of hi; intantions beyond what was nfual upon giving no tices its this way. The Poor Laws of this country had grown into a fyllem fo complicated and embar raffing, and were become Tuch a heavy and hid ear ing ezpenee upon the country, that forte' revirion of them wai abfolutely neCeirary. He had had a project of this native in contemplation for tome years pall, which had occupied much of his attention; but lie tonnd it extremely difficult to reduce it to a (liaise in which en offer it for the confederation of Parliament. r , One of two things fretted netelfary in this cafe, either to finsplify the prelim Poor Laws, by dame fhorr, clean, and comprehenfive plan, or to fuggell fame new regulations for remedying their deltas, and checking the abufes which continued to obtain under. theni as they now Rood. To neither of thefe modes wonld hr at this moment fpecifically pledge himfalf; but he timid, however, early in the next Sefton, .prhpole to the Houfe fame plan upon the fubjed. V I ROSE Li& that he too had had in concern ; platton; for a confiderable. tittle, a proporition of a fitnilar nature, and that en intimation of his purpofe bad been given to the Houfe above two years fince, which, however, from a variety of other itidirpenfable, avocations and impeafimenis, he had hitherto bees prevented from bringing b:fore the Houfe. He was .. *augustly glad of the intention now avowed by the • H i e* Member, and lhould be happy to render tb that purpofe every :.id in his power. One part of thoarropofition, which he (Mr. Rige) had in view, yrs tp provide employment for the Poor; and thereby to Magda their own indollry as effeaive as polfible towards their maintenance. Mr., WHITBItEAD anfwered, that certainty a • oorpofer.to very important had not efcaped his *men• lion, but would form a leading feature of his plan. angoras To THE IIt•NADSIS OT THE IMPEACHMENT. The SECRETARY at WAR gave notice, that • • hapould, on Tuefslay next, propoft to the Houfe a • motion of Thanks to the Parliamentary Managers of • Lod Melville's Impeachinent, for their laudable eon • dtia is tbe whole of that bufinefs. • AAAAA CA ACCOUNTS. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER , ♦ rale android, that, before he proceeded to call the attention of the Houfe to the important fuhjeet of which he had given notice for this days it would be neceffary for him to fay a few words, in alluflon to vijiat had mired in the Houk on a former night, upon the fubjed of Barrack Expenditures. It would be in the recollection of the Houfe, that on that night a motion had been made by an Hon. Gentleman (W. Rolifon), for the groduition of tome papers re (pelting the bufinefs of the Barrack Department, one of which papers the Houfe had thought proper to grant ; but tae Hen. Gentleman's motion for others, • the Houfe had been pleated to refufe, by a vote fdr the previou,queflion. Upon that occafion, he was at fame lots to learn what was the particular (sh)ied the Hon. Gentleman had in view, and he now flattered himfelf, that he had difcovered the °Ned, and that it related to Come thing which took place in the Ifle of Wight in the year tilos, relpeiting the employ ment of a number cf barns, as barracks for, his Ma. i jelly's troops in that ifland, at a moll extravagant Mice ; and to Come propofition which had been made in a letter,to the then Secretary at War, relative to the building of barracks there. He fhould now there fore, as he underftood the °Neil, move for. the pro. duaion of thofe papers, which the Hotife had thought proper to refufe on .a former night ; and. he moved accordingly for a copy of a letter from Mr. Day, builder, in the Ifle of Wight, to the Barrack-Mager gar S r a a n c d k o s r io that d i : a n cl ° w ring f e r v is e p ri oSa o l: h f e u r r pa building pe ri * . Laing to the fame fubjed. • Mr. ROBSON role to expects tome aftonifbncent, at the conduit of the Noble Lord throughout the' whole of this Wined. Feeling it to be his privilege and right as a Member of Parliament to call for certain documents refpeding the extravagant expen diture of the public money, he had given four days notice of his intention to move for thole documents, that there might be no intention imputed to him of walling to take the Houfe by forprixe. He accor dingly made his motion, which he prefaced by Inch oblervations as he thought could leave no doubt up- on the mind of any Gentleman who heard him, as to the object of his motion, and the intention with which he meant to follow it up. The Noble Lord thought prover to refill his motion, and to vote for the pre vious quellion ; but now, w ben the extravagance of t!.e hart ack dcpartmewand the extraordinary oppb fition of tier N oi)le Lord to his motion for papers to p•ov‘: that cetravagance, were in the mouth of every rran why) calked the public flied., the Noble Lord lornielf moved fora lilt thofe very documents hirh he wally beliesed was a copy .‘t the identical nr , tion. which had been telufed upon i I,onter night. Re Illy he thooi;lit it but rsainnabLf to cxpt el, that t',e Noble Lord's motion this day would have been accompanied by tome apology for a Ctaidt.Cl so un eccountable. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQyER anfwered, that fur the Honfe he lhould certainly offer no apology, for refitting, on fuch grounds as it thought fit, to comply with the motior. ullnded to ; and for himfelf be thought it diffident to nate, that he was nor, on the former night. made acquainted with the Honourable Gentleman's objets, to jai& him in • affenting to his motion. He now was acquainted with the purpofes of his motion, and therefore mov ed to produce the papers in queflion. Mr. ROBSON role to explain, but was proceeding to a length which occafioned a general cry of Choir! awir 1 upon which the SPEAKER reminded the Honourable Member of the Order of the Houfe, and he down. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER'S motion was, then agreed to. maim •CitrUNTS, AND WEST INDIA ANUSES. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER in j opening the plan relative to the public accounts,, fpukc nearly as follows : " Although, Mr. Speaker,/ the immediate objets tehieb I have in view, is-the' repeal of the late alt. appointing Commifliosierl col examine into if* frauds and abufes committee in flie,l Well Indies, with fubltituting a more efficient meal; fure in its !lead—although, Sir, this be my immediate . ' olielt, yet it is ,my opinion, and I Unit the Hook will agree with me, that 1 oleo not to let flip this : opportunity of (lacing generally thole meafures' which his Majelly's Government are to propofe, for the examining and palling the public account!. If, in fo doing I fhall trefpafs for Come' time on the patience of the Houle, and enter at Tome leingth into the plan, fill I hope 1 need make no apalogy, as am calling the attention of Gentlepsen to a dirty of pecbliar importance to every Member of the Houle of CoinmOntr, and one to whiter his molt affiduoust exertions to be devoted. I beg the . indulgencei Oahe Ho}lfe, while I Rate a few eircuiinaritaiti with the intentinh of bringing this fubjedmerre complete ty under their view. At a confiderable period back, the Adminillration ot the Public Accounts was com mitted to two officers, but withobt any cited ual cot ttoul or check. That happened which might be ex pelled in Inch a 'cafe: tilde officers, like other officers who are allowed to remain without any Check or con trout, became, if notentirely ntelefs, at lea ft of much lets utility than they ought teohave been. The natural confequence of all this was, that the Officers, though they remembered well that they bad falatiel to get, Teemed almoft to forget that they had any duty to per form, of tootle the bullock was very much neglelled. In this filuation it feemed neceffary that things lliould grow work before they turned better, and the Ame rican war did us thisgood office at leall. So compli cated, In unintelligible, and fo embarraffed did the accounts become during the American war, that tl reform almoft necellarily followed. Under the three (port adminiltrations which fuceeeded the conclidion of that war, a fpirit of reform was fouled, which ex tended to the Adminiaration of the Right lion. Gentleman who preceded me in this office, and who is now no more. The attention of the Right Hon. Gentleman was therefore naturally called to the atol diting ofthe Public Accounts, and to the defeats which prevailed in the offices connected with this bufinek. They were, indeed, fo very impeded that it was impctlible the fubjed could have creeped his atten tion. The officers, it feems, could not call the accountants before them and force them to pals their accounts, and from the nature ot their conflitution a fingular abufe wok. The matter was fo con trived that the fees of the different officers depended on the number of :Kenitra which they paffed, fo that he who was determined to do his duty Ifridly, and to examine narrowly into any account that came into his hands. was left almoft without any bufinefs or feet; while he who was moll negligent of his duty, who palled accounts withdut being very particular as to the Panels or amount of the charges, was in high employment, and had his office crowded with ac countants and with fees. If the vouchers were re. gitlarty drawn up. this *IS all that was here requir ed. No particular inquiry was made as to the na ture ot the vouchers, and the manner in which they had been procured. The confequence certainly was, as may be preformed. without fear of being in error, that great frauds and Auks were committed. Under theft circumfiances t e Right Hon. Gentleman now no more, to whom I befor e adverted, law that Come chansre was neceffary in the management of the Public Accounts, and accordingly, in the year t 785, a Bill was brought in appointing five Commigioners for the adminiltration of the public accounts. Now let it be obferved here, that whatever oblervations I may find it neceffary to make refpeding the MCii• lures of that Right Honourable Gentleman, I do not mean any dig - ref - pet to his memory, or to deny the goodnels of his intentions. That his meafures on this head failed is certainly very much to be afcribed to the prodigious accumulation of boluses that has taken place fince they were propelled. The Officers appointed by him were enabled to can, for account!, to examine parties on oath, and to go through every Ilep that ceitild be neceffary to enable them to come to a jag and accurate final determina tion. Of this CommiCGon, the two Army Comp trollers formed a part. Thefe two officers were firft appointed by Lord Godolphin ; and the inftrultions wbich he gave them are fo coned, fo excellent, fo neceffary, and fo remarkably well calculated to pro duce all the benefits that might be expefted to retail from the nature of their employment, that I cannot Nis them over without at kali calling the attention of the Houk to an abftrad of theie initrudions.— Thrift Army Comptrollers were to examine into all the military accounts, into the accounts of the money aired from the Exchequer for the pay of the army, the accounts of the arms, provifions, camps, hofpital and field Mores; into accounts of all cowed+, fo that no abufe could be pradifed without coming to, their knowledge. They were alto to infped minutely into the regimental accounts, aAd the pay of the re giments ; and further, they were commanded to re - poi t regularly to the Treafury, In that the Hate of the bonnets was thus tpeedily and fairly put into their paeans. Now, according to the conttitution of the Commuffion appointed by the Right Honourable Gentleman, thefe officers were ex ofrcie declared to be a part of it. At the (erne time, they had In many and Inch important ditties to perform in the exa mination of the various accounta rel Rive to the army, that tht useafure which rendered them fart Of a tommidion, the duties of which the? , might not be able to execute in addition to thufe which mote. immediately belonged to their province, cannot cer tainly be commended for its propriety or the informa tion concerning public bufinefs which it difpLtys.— They had the accounts of the army expences before to audit, and their being added to the general Corn million only brought with' is. an increnfe of duty, which diminifhed their uti ity conlidetably in both capacities. But be that as it may, the Army Copp trailers were added to this Commillion, of which they were ex Odo rendered a part. And according ly, as trrght have been eafily forefeen, their doties as Comptrollers were in a great meafore negleded, nay, almolt entirely ceafed. This may undobbt edly be aittibuted to the great preffure of hufinefs which was brought upon them by their new duties, and, as tribally happetrt in fuck cafes, finding it im poffible rao do all their hufinefs, they lett it tannin altogether undone. Even their authority was in a, great locator( loft, or at lean not In much refptfied as before. They called for accounts, but !bey were not 'nought, and ttseir orders were dirt egaided. They very fad= reported oa abides or frauds, sad rum to bore loft a great part of their original char meter. Itidelendent of there circunaftatmel it ap pears that *Mous Kies were made so the witty, the accounts of which have not beenlubrpitted to them at all. The accounts ut the Hofpital, Stores, and , Field Work., for instance, have during the whole of rise relent war, been left without any checks what ever. The I look will feel the importance of the fuhjefl, when I tell then), that in the cootie of fix 'years, iioo,occl. have been iffued to Mr. .Trotter without my contiottl. In d if - poling of - that Man lite•hasOaed in different capacitie.--as manufalluter of the ar• title wanted, as purveyor of them when fo inanufac tured, as Itorekeeper, as comptroller of his expendi ture, and lafily, as auditor of his own accounts — (brim, bear!) It may, perhaps, appear furprifing, that while Minding in all there fituati:ns, and feeling all the anxiety, and running all the tifks incident to them, he has had the modefty only to charge to per cent. over and above all the profits, to which hethinkc laimfelf fairly entitled I There accounts ate not rub ,mitted to the Army Comptrollers ; neither have the accounts of the Barrack Department been fubmitted -to them, the iffues for which have; during the late war, beep to the amount of niue milkioss darling: — But there`acconnts differ from thole of the Hofpital and Stores in this, that they .are fultjeit to trss exami nation of the Auditors in the loft inft.,:ec, where the accounts of the llnfpi al Stores are (Vial t 4 no check at all. The accounts of the B' tra ck Depart. anent ought to lave been examined by the prefent Commiffion, but fuck are its flotation and emborrafr meats, that none of them have been infpe4ed. In all theft fituations have the rifles been made without the frnallea cheek la conn on). The commission ap pointed by the Right Honourable Gentleman was defective in this, that die C.smpttollera of the Army formed a part of it, and there Comptrollers were en 'ableil to give but a very panders attention to the bu linefs of the Commitrm, and the confeepence was, withoirt meaning a refl.:Ohm upon any individual; that the other Commithouers hetiame more remits in their duty. Brit there was another evil attending this Como:Min, which was inherent in Its internal organization, rind that is, that all the accounts were first fuionitted to the inferior Officers, who had the power of wanting a difeharge upon then) before they came into the hands of the head Beards.— This circtunflance,, together with the immenfe ac cumulation mf bufiners, renslesed the measure of the Right Manourable C r eotleman entirely derecctive, and loudly called for fnmething to be done to facilitate this important objeft:' In confequence Qf this, fevetal attempts were made to increafe the powers of the Cnmmidirmerso and thirty-five Clerks were added to iloai office at different times. But, though there perhaps might be 'ireful, they by no means afforded that rented) a, to the principle of the rneafure which was of nrcatlity required. Partial re medies then began to he applied to this too, when it WAS found that the erimmitilon as it flood was not equal to die ditties which it had to perform. In con feculence, therefore, of the frauds and 'tholes which had been dilcovered to have been practifed in the Well Indies, and which could not be prevented or remedied by the commiffion at home, Commitlioners were appointed in the year 1800, for the exprefs pur pate of examining into there particular fluids and abufes, which had grown to a monflrous height.— Thefe may have been 'lreful in deteeling ahules and bringing them to light; but the fyftem was re ar ranged, that they have nor been able to bring up the arrears of the accounts, which remain as before, and though they have brought aboles to light, yet they have never been able to do it in fueh a manner as to enable us to apply t h e proper re medy to thefe abufes, or bring the offenders to con dign puniffiment. In the comic of the 101 l year fame additional attempts were made to improve the mea lure a but all had been found to be ineffeaual to bring up the arrears, and the refult of all is the plan which I am about to propofe. The Houle will ad vert to this, that none of the accounts of the Pay Office have been paired fince 5782 ; that none of the barrack accounts (ince the American War ; none of the accounts relating to the expedition to Egypt,and the expedition to the Helder, and none of the accounts of the prefent war have been at all looked into. The Commillion appointed in 5785 were to call in the infuper accounts (the Honk I prefume know, that the iriftiper accountants are thole who were called in to oat the regular accountants.) Yet fuch was the preffure of butinefs, and the bad conllitution of the Commiffion, that it was not till 1795, or ten years afterward., that any attention was paid to the info per accounts. But between that time and the prefent none of the accounts of the inhiper accountants have been ex unined at all, and tince the prefent Treasury Board have come into r Elite, they have called for a flatement of the number of the infuper accounts, and after a lapfe of three months, the Commiflioners, it appears, arc not able as yet to give in a statement, even of the number. Such, then, is the flare of Cie public arrears. There are in the Auditor's Office, under fora minsiion, accounts to the amount of '6.7 millions. In tire Pry Office for twenty-one years, accounts to the amount of 150 million.. In the Auditor's Office, not proceeded upon, to the amount of 58 millions— and Navy Accounts not delivered in for 9 years, to the amount I 8c millions, making in all 455millions,being &moll erpial to the amount of the National Debt. Hear, hear! Nov:, having flamed this, it mull be nb vimis to every one, that it became a moll important point with us, to provide fame remedy for tats great and increafing evil. Our attention has been turned to it, as to one of the molt important fuhjeas that could occupy our attention, with a view to find out tome meafure equal to the vailnefi of the thing itfelf. What the danger is of !wing the public accounts unpaired for twenty or thirty years, whit, from perfons dying, the chance of recovery, in cafes of fraud, is loft, I leave the Houle to confider. What hazard may thus be incurred of not applying the re. venue to the purpofes for which it is voted, I alto leave the Houle to confider. But certain it is this is a point that ought to engage the ferious attention of Government, and it is not only on account of the public, that ,thefe accounts might to I.e examined and palled as fpeedily as poffible, but alto on .acc , maat of the public accountant. Fur let it be cunlidetcd what mutt he the fituation oldie lomat man, who finch that notwitlitlanding every exertion podible for him to make, he cannot do its duty. Thus, then, the pre fent fituation of the Public Accounts, while it affords a lade and 's veil for iniquity, draws a cloutrounJ integrity nu awl can effeCtually third. I (carte need mention any initarce•of this. Yet there is nt e which I cannot forbear adverting to. The late Lord Macariney was Governor of Grenada in 5774, and had an account of 70,0001. which was not palled, arA in fpite of eve, y effort on his part, he died without knowing that he was clear with the public. Whether that be a fituarion in which the' honed accountant ought Accoe t n o be t ant s p . l n c e fu ml tome n l a y n a nc e e ed $. not ca ir a tk o t t g h v c Houle. titles with their elates, nor difpife of their real property for wan! of arqtrittarteefram the public. Now, then, for the means to remedy there defefts, as it is the in tention 11 Glares nment to repeal the former Ads, and to rubltiritte others in their geed, by , which ten Commillinners are to be appointed to audit the pub lic aceouut., t , T be . totally feparate room the Onnr trollers of the Atmy Accounts, viho ate to be tc ftnred to their franttions, as detailed in the intim - tions of Lord Godriphir. Th ey , are, elf), in fo. tore, to have the previous motakaation of, all militat expenditure whatever. They tire, betides, to he ti - confidential advice's of fag Treafirvy with refpe.9 t s all frauds and aborts that they eats Mont in the military fervice of the control; In coat we stay always,. in cafes of doubt, have a prorr opinion to • diraft ,us. 2'hefe will become ' therdote, a fort of ' miAttattavoicl, refpeeting the . whole expenditure of the army—the whole commilfariot at home and abroad irT to be put utider their management—they are to be empowered to call perfons before them, end to examine them on oath. The ten Covina (toners are not to be Members of Parliament i and the Treafury is to haVi the power of dividing them into Boards, as the cafe may require. The fit It divi finn is to he in three Boards ariling out of this principle, the complete reparation of the arrears front the future band's of the accomptants. The Lilt Board is to confiti of four Comnalioners, with eight Infpeaurs. This Board is to take up the whole ac counts of the expenditure lince the 3111 of December ha. The fecund Boatd to confifi of three tommif fioners and fit Infpeftors, charged with the audit of all the accounts before the old Board of Auditors, and already under examination, forming the one hundred and flirty millions before referred to. The thi-d B , ard to confiß of three•Commiffioners and fix lapeelors, is to be charged with the examination and audit of all arrears of exttaordihary accounts, up to the 31ft of December hft, including the infoper ac counts. By this divifion it is to be hoped that this insesenfe male, which has been accuMulating for fo massy years, may at halt be diffolved. The Boards are to be relieved from the details of Barrack and, Weil India Accounts. Each Commaorier is to h a ve a d e partment int the Accounts of which he it to he perrinallp refponlibli till they are laid befoul the Board t and this will combine a perrTnal ,cfpon fibility with the refponfibility of the Conrimitliunerii as Boards, a thing which may lie eipefied to he at tended with the bell etTals. As it is the object of Government to hav: the berießt of this tile-Jure with as little charge to The country . as peffible, provilioa has been made by which the number of Commillion.; err (hall be diminillied as their fervicas become iinne ceffarv, and they ate, therefore, to be gradually re duced from ten to fix, with this additional feeurity to the public, that when a Commiflioner dies hi is not to be replaced without the content of Parliament Having now, Sir, Hated the general plan lvhich is id corttemplation for auditing the public accounts, I fhall proceed to that part of the Arlie& which is more immediately to be confidered. The aburet which have taken place in the Well Indies have goae to an enormous extent. Frauds and forgeries were committed out of number. The powers of the late Commifflon were too narrow. It was his objeft, therefore, to appoint a Commiliion with powers much more exteurive—which may call perfons be fore them, examine them on oath, difallow account., or allow them with a certificate. It is intended to refer the rep: its of the former Commiffiiners to the new Commillion. The enormity of the frauds arid abufes %%ere loch, that they often confounded the Of. Leers who were to invelligate them. Under theft. circumllances our defign is to repeal tote former Aft, and to rubdittite another more effeetual in its (lead, and having done this, I may conlcientioully fay that we believe we are doing right (hear, hear !) and that if the remedies propoled fluff be found insufficient, we (hall carefully attend to them, and provide fuch amendments from year to year, as shall at /all render the Cominiffi•sn adequate to the ends of its eflablifh ment. These is rite thing occurs to me in the general plan, which I lborild be lorry to have omitted, and that is, that in the Bill which I (ball prnpure, provili n than be made for compelling every Accountant to bring forward his aicount, whe ther the whole is made up or not, fo that the public Winds may be managed in the fame manner as that of a private merchant, and there is no reafon why it Ihould not. The Commiflioners will thus know the money iffued, and the balances, and the Auditors will be compelled to examine every account within e eighteen dy m moving nv months is a t f ) us r leavefait I i t cl o i Ldfh n or aii p collfonrcluthde britingis more effectual Prevention of Frauds and Abufes in the Well Indies. Mr. ROSE hoped the Hours would allow him to fay a few words. He tibferved that the We'Wadi& Commiffioncrs had confined themfelves to making re- portk, without attempting to audit the accounts. He contended that whatever good had been done in thes auditing of the cccoiti.ts. had been owin to los g _ Right Honourable V, fiend now no more. What I e had done was. to be lure, not la perfect in every 1.. fpel at fink as could have been willed, bit then I is certainly had views of bringing the matter to gre.. , perfection. He alfcrted, that Comptrollers of Army had full time to do their duty as Comn (loners. Alter adver tit.g to the caulks of the arry.ti in the public aecnunts. he faid, that the great nor page was the:War.ollce. As to the Well•lncia abufes, be had Uncovered there bimfelf, and had ad sired the appointment of the Commifllon to larval• gate them. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, in explanation, observed, that it was not to the addi tional number of the Commillioners that he looked for fccutity, but to the alit:ration of the principle. • Mr. Secretary FOX declared that he gave the Right Honourable Gehileinah (Mr. Role) hill Cr. dit for the accuracy it hi. flatentrii. ; lie knew that t} at Right Hunuttrab:e Menibtr wa, parcely well ac quainted with the iteuipa r ,t arc and the t h „ -tier in 'which they mere :tilt :; ied into w , t are called Pailiamentary T.at Rig t