Star. — London, England, 1812-03-04 00:00:00

we will relieve yon ;" • this was . 0 system of Walla t to whicn he could not subscribe. The O r de r s in Court- I col were perfect so. far as they tended to reduce' the power .of the enemy, but he could not agree to the doctrine, that they were to be enforced for the pur r pose a reducing the enemy to distress with a view to his relief ; with this view of the subject he would not be suspected of bringing these Orders into disrespect. Wield regard to the license trade, that was a subject upon which hehad butlittle information or knowledge. 'The fault he imputed to this system was, first, from r i if.S:leadency to produce convulsions in the course of trade, which were injurious to commercial interests generally ; next, as they were occasionally granted or withheld, there was no uniform principle upon which men could square their speculation ; but that they were the source of consider,ble losses, he admitted, was not to be attributed to Government; because when so many thousands were granted, and so many refused, such losses must be the ultimate consequence. But an instance had been lately communicated to him, where an application was made for one of those licences, and refused. A second application was made on a subsequent day, through the medium of a friend, and again refused; and upon the fourth day, the party seeking the license got another friend to ap ply, anti at last he succeeded. Did he blame the Board of Trade ror this ? Certainly not. It was no• torious, that at one time importations were permitted, and at another time refused ; but what he found fault with was, how was the regular merchant to calculate ? He could not take the general course of trade as the grounds of his conduct. But as this system was necessarily subject to fluctuation, these evils must still exist ; that, however, in his mind was no reason why they should not go into the inquiry, and try whether these evils could not be avoided.— But it had been said that these licences were refused, except under certain circumstances; that, however, was no instance to establish their necessity, and cer tainly could not be a reason against going into an inquiry, This might arise, perhaps, from one cleri cal error among ten thousand; but if he was in the situation of administering that part of the Govern ment, he should be most anxious for inquiry, in or der to avoid such errors in future; but if it arose from an error inherent in the system itself, then, indeed, it was high time to look for a change. If this, therefore, was a state of things fit to go on with, let the House first establish the necessity; but, a priori, if he had any doubtc, and great doubts he admitted he had, these doubts shouldfirst be removed, and this was a still further reason for inquiry. With respect to the Orders he would press them as much as possible, and if pressed they might lead to the adoption of that system which was most.des:rable ; but he would press them with this view only, to open the market for our own commodities to the total exclusion of neutrals. Was it not the refore necessary to inquire into what ehaanels that trade might best run ? He would es- 1 tablish a principle of the strictest reciprocity with the beliterents ; he would not be subject to their cap ice, bu: he would support our own trade. Had an tin mitigated blockade been applied to Russia (a-td in this respect he took much blame to himself) ?" If, he continued, from 1809 ap unmitigated blockade had been appl ed to Russia, he had little doubt, nay, it almost amounted to a certainty, that such a blockade would have brought that Power into terms ; and in stead of giving relief, the system pf blockade should be carried to the remotest extent. With respect to Our relations with America, it was proper to lay Om aside. If they were brought forward with a view to our own policy, he should be the first to sup port the proposition ; but if any mast was ready to relinquish our claims to support our own system, avith a view to concession towards America, at the expence of that system, he could only say ha was not that man. He was not the man who would restrain from retaliating measures towards the enemy, in the fear of, offending a Neutral Power • he'would not remove it ‘ine jot the sooner ;he wou ld not be mean enough to lodi into our internal situation, in order to get ri.l of an external difficulty ; but if, in the course of inquiry, we could incidentally ameliorate our system with relation to America, it might be most beneficial to go into that inquiry. Upon all these grounds, therefere, he for one was most unwilling to dismiss the present question without giving it a due share of consideration. Mr. MA RRYATT thought that the system of li censes should only be resorted to in cases of absoltre necessity ; but the sytem of mutual licenses, with a view to fair reciprocity, he consiclei ed a system highly beneficial, in which no fraud or deception was neces. iary on either side. He must, however. observe, that during the last two years. while the Right Hon. Gentleman who spoke last was in Office, uo less thhit five thousand lictnies were granted in the previous year, and one thousand five hundred in the second ; and yet that Right Hon: Gentleman affected now to • know nothing of this system.— (Loud cries of Hour, Bear.') — He 'dtfended the Orders in Council, as ori gin tly established, as perfectly justifiable ; and had they b:en strictly adhered to, he had no doubt they would ultimately have effected the purposes for which they were propounded ; but he regretted that, any amelioration of those Orders had taken place, as it bad the effect of enhancing the Colonies of our allies, while it reduced our own ; and as an elucida tion of this, he instanced the case of the Island of Cuba, from whence alone, during the last two years, since the relaxation of our Orders in Council, no less than twenty-two thousand hogsheads of sugar alone were eitiorted in the first, and fifteen thousand in the second year, while at the beginning of the war the • export of that commodity amounted 'only to seventy thousand hogsheads. He hoped, therefore, that his Majesty's Ministers would revert to and adhere to the system of retaliation as originally ad-ipted, and any motion which had this fur its object he would most cordially agree to, but seeing no beneficial con sequences likely to result from the present proposition, .he should therefore oppose it. Mr. GEORGE JOHNSTONE spoke in favorr Of the Orders in Council,• and concluded with ex pressing his determination to accede to the proposi tion made by the opposite side of the House, which was to inquire into the present state of the commerce of this country. • Though he shoild give his iiY.a in favour of the motion, he could not lose) the opportu nity of expressing that be had the fullest confidence it the present Prime Minster. • Sir CHA RLES PRICE opposed the motion. Mr. WILBERFORCE deemed the question befort the House of very great importance, loth in a moral 77" 7 ad po'llticAl point of view, As to the preposition made by the Hon. Member (Mr. Brougham), he thought it a very reasonable one i for be was of opi. slims, that the House ought to go into Inquiry to as. certain whether there was any possibility of palliating the tendency of our present system. The House tuna remember that they were called upon to inquire re specting the effects of the Orders in Council, they were not required to decide on the policy of the Or ders in Council. When there was so much dissatisfac tion throughout the country, and when there was so much commercial distress, that House ought not to refuse inquiry. , lie was a friend to the proposed in quiry, beCause it would tend to remove all possible prejudice and objection—(Hear, hear,)—indeed he conceived it would be paying a due attention to those who suffered. (Hear, hear.) He thought America had some cause for complaint, for we first excluded her from the Continent by Orders, and then we went there ourselves, by virtile of our Licence system— ! (Hear, hear.) But inquiry was necessary. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER opposed the motion, but not, as he could assure his , Honourable Friend who spoke last, from any appre hension that the result of inquiry would be against the wisdom of the system. He opposed it lest those who suffer might be led for an instant into the mistake that their distresses were to be attributed to this sysa . tern. He could prove to demonstration, from incon trovertible documents, that the Orders, instead of pro ducing their distresses had been the very means of hitherto staving them off.—(Hear.) —He was not surprised, however, at the reasons given by his Ho nourable Friend ; for so great was his desire for, and disposition to inquiry, that he never recollected a mo tion of this sort which was not aimed at him, by the Gentleman opposite, which was not framed so con genial to his general wishes as to be calculated to catch him. But it was strange enough that his Ho nourable Friend and his Right Honourable Friend also (Mr. Canning) should vote for inquiry, on the particular ground of desiring to be satisfied that in fact their existed no ground for inquiry. This, how ever, must be their reason, since they appeared satis fied that the present distresses were not to be attribu ted to the Orders. He was glad of one circumstance, which never occurred on a debate on this subject ; that there was not the least intimation of the injustice of the system, the more so, then, as it was not so for merly : for he well recollected how often the House was told of their injustice, and in what terms they were re probated. The Right-Hon. Gent. declared in answer, to what had fallen from his Right Hon. Friend that he never looked on the Orders in Council in any other light than as measures of retaliation warranted by the la* of nations ; on the principle, that if France chose to depart from the law of nations, and to :e.sert rights incompatible with the acknowledged rights of others, such nation must be opposed, by retali,,,ing her mon strous system upon herself, otherve . :,e she could use her violation as a sword against ,ethers' rights, and at the same time make it at a shield in her &fence. As to his Right Honourable Friend's argument on the blockade of 1807, he insisted that he never spoke in that House on tile pohat, without distinctly saying, that retaliative against France was meant in the fol. lowing way :—That as France had said by her blockade, that we should not trade with any part cf the world, we said that no other part should trade with her. if this had not been its meaning, it would have been no retaliation at all If we had abided by , the law of actual blockade, then the system would , have been the annihilation of trade and our relative commercial situation, by which we alone would, suffer. After the full statement of his Right Ho nourable Friend ( Mr. Rose), and tle able speech of his Honourable and Learned Friend, it was not necessary to trouble the House with many remarks. It was unfair to attribute the distresses existing to the Orders, when a more rational source was before the eyes of the country, namely, the losses in the Baltic. Did not those losses check speculation, and thereby affect the manufactining classes? They had another source in the natural temporary stagna tion after the excess of 1809 and 1810. He thcn read licences granted by the late Administration, and ar gued, from the Customs of France, the serious effect which the Orders had produced on French trade, and shewed, from the expose of the French Minister, and the address of the Senate, the vast expellee which would be incurred to fill the arsenals of the Empire. The repeal would take off all the manufactures of France, and open to her the Eastern and Western World. After a variety of other observations, he eroiested ss6ngly agains , a Committee, as calculated to let louse all those subjects connected with America which it was now expedient to smother. Mr. WHITBREAD said, he thought it necessary to offer to the House a few observations, which it was impossibleao avoid, in consequence of the extra ordinary speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman. He had never heard a speech in Parliament more calculat ed to mislead the House from the question. The Right Hon. Gentleman had endeavored to make them . believe, that the question was, whether the Orders in Council ought to be mentioned ? The question to be decided was, whether this country had acted fairly towards America ? but the Right Hon. Gentleman, instead of discussing that point, had entered into a statement of the difference between the resources of England and France, contending that Bonaparte had no revenue to carry on the war.—( Cry of No and hear, hear.)—The Right Honourable gentleman might be well skilled in French and English finance ; but that was not the question for the consideration of the House. The People starving, and most of the Manufacturers of the country out of employ, was the subject which claimed their attentios. He had understood that Petitions from Birmingham and other manufacturing towns, in various parts of the' kingdom, stating their disasters, had been sent to the Prince Regent, which from some circumstance had not yet been presented. He was surprised at the 'delay, as he conceived that illustrious Person to be 'easy of access. Ministers could not be ignorant of the misfortunes t t o which he alluded, yet they were con stantly treating the subject as if no such disasters were in eiistenee. CoUld they be ignorant that in all paid of the country petitions were preparing ? Had 'they not henrd that petitions were preparing in York. shire ? When they knew those facts, and they were asked to name a Committee to inquire into the effects sarhich the Order!! in Council :lad produced on the trade and manufactures of the country, the. Right Hop. gentleman had gone'on with a fine flourishing sitatemeiit of finance, saying, , f Is this not an answer to the manufacturers ? and tell me whether there can be any ground for appointing a Committee to inquire Into the Orders in Council. The Right Hoq. Gentle man reminded him of the conduct of a Noble Lord with respect to Sir John Moore. When that Gene pl applied for men, he was answered, You have so many men with you ; here they are on paper. The General replied, The question is not what I have on paper, but what I have in the field; I cannot muster near that number. But the Noble Lord persisted that the men were on pottier, (in the returns) and the Ge nerallad them. It was the case with the manufacturers. When they asked for bread, and their masters were un able to support them, they were told by the Rigl4 Hon. Gentleman of exports and imports on paper. 10id 'they not know what bankruptcies had occurred, and 1 of the speculative trade which had been the ruin of the manufacturers ? Petitions from that suffering class I !would soon be laid on the table, and they would read the history of all the disasters. The system of the Orders in Council had been productive of ruin and , misery. The Right Hon. Gentleman had told the i House what the situation of France, with respect to, commercial advantages, would be, if the Orders in Council were repealed; but let it be remembered, that the Motion before the House proposed no repeal, though the operation of the Right Honourable Gentleman's Licensing System, was constantly op. posing the Orders for which he professed so much respect, and, in fact, they had never been fully eite cuted. In the picture which had been drawn, of the flourishing state of our exports in 1809, it seemed to be forgotten, that the markets of Spain. and Portugal were then open to us. Now what had : the officious Orders in Council to do with that outlet.- 1 In the same manner, the Right Honourahle Gentle. !man held up a table of our Custom-house entries with his right hand, and exhibited the confiscations of Na poleon with his left. Did he not know, that thew confiscations were formed of part of the exports of which he boasted, and that the ruined merchants could not proceed in such a trade ? The exports had of course, according io the accounts up to the Ist of February, sunk nom twelve to one million, and, in fact, must fall to sero. He wished the House to consider what would be the consequence of a war with America, the favourite object M Pas* liament, and, he believed, of the people of this coon: try. If a war broke out with America, it would be impossible for us any longer to supply the armies in' the Peninsula. Last year a million of barrels of flour were scut from America to Spain and Portugal. -1 ' This was at a time when we could not feed our own population without importations from France, and for the corn we received fions thence, Bonaparte would take nothing hut hard gold and silver. The lino. Gentleman then proceeded to press on the con sideration of the House the effect of the Licensing System in producing foreign seamen, and referred un that question to the remonstrance of the Hull Mer chants. He next observed, that one of the subterfuges to which the Chancellor of the Exchequer resorted, was the setting up the Order in Council ot 1807 as a defence of the present Orders. Such an argu ment might be, very well, if the conduct of Lord ick were the question under consideration, but how was a referene to his conduct to give bread to the starving manufac turers in every corner of the country. Those who supported the present Motion were nut bound to vin dicate Lord Howick, but he should just observe, that there was a material difference in point of policy, between the mere essay of a principle, whether 1 tight or wrong, and the pushing of that principle to 1 its utmost extremity in practice. He must also re -1 mind the Right Hon. Gentleman of the defence of that 1 I Order of 18u7, made by a Learned Civilian near him, when Lord Howick was blamed for not acting upon it to a greater extent. That Learned Civilian said, that to carry the principle farther would be to imitate the monkey which throws at his assailants cocoa nuts in return for stones, aud yet it was upon this rneakt , 9 _polity the ,Right on. Gentleman was ambitious ot acting. With regard to the pompous eit- I hibition ut our exports and imports, it reminded him of the boasting calculations with which a French Emigrant Knight used to amuse the, country about twenty years ago, and who went on proving that France must be overcome, because her trade and finances were ruined. He proceeded to prove that I all the gold in the world was in England, while iss ; France there was nothing but paper ; and with this ' consolatory doctrine he proceeded until he got a I pension. It happened, however, that the first pay. rent of his pension was made in paper, in conse quence of the stoppage of the Bank of England. The Vice-President cf the Board of Trade and the 1 Right Hon. Gentleman near him, had dwelt mush . upon the effect which the repeal of the Orders iti Council would have in throwing a profitable metal ' into the hands of the Americans. It appeared then, that the main reason for continuing these Orders, was not. what the Right Hon. Gentleman pretended. , a retaliation for the commercial regulations of France s which formed a legitimate measure of war, such as any just return on our part would equally be. It was not kir this retaliation the Orders were to be con. tinued, but to prevent America from profiting by a I, trade which we could not engross to ourselves. This I was the mere spirit of Commercial rivalry, and not hostility to the enemy. If the Howe should go into a Committee, in consequence of the motion of his Lear ned Friend, it did not follow that any discussion would arise on the questions between this country and America ; that object, if he were to be a Member of the Committee, he should disclaim ; but with regard to the Orders in Council, two questions would arise; First, Whether it would be good policy to continue 1 them ? and, if that should be answeied in the i.ega five, Secondly, %Thither it would be consistent w to the dignity of the country to abandon 11. cm ? If it I should appear,hpon inquiry, that they had been it . its• rious to the trade of the country, that would afford 'the Government fair ground for their repeal. Mr. HERBERT rose, notwithstanding a loud cry of Question ! and stated, in reply to what had , been stated on the subject cf Licences, some facts which had come to his knowledge in the courts of certain proceedings in the Admiralty Courts. He observed, that no Qaths were required at our Custom House, because it was the object of the Licence to fa elli4te exportation, but that the vessels could not eater the - parts of the Continent without the sinau• I lnied papers being supported by false oaths. ' Lord G. LEVISON GOWER conceiving.that he Thad been alluded to by the Hon : Gentleman (Mr. Whitbread) thought 'it right to state • that he had been directed by certain person, h the &arm.* Potteries, to present a Petition against o r d ers . Council to the Prince Regent. He hafpl eeed i t ! the hands of the Secretary of State f or the Herael partment, tied had written to the individual s w h o , entrusted him -with kon the subject. Th" di ; proved of his parting with it, o b s p i s i ng, ;hat kept it in his own lipids, an etperunity, wiold have occurred to preset tit to the Reset For such an opportunity be had waited in v a i n ring the las; three weeks. He felt it hi s d uty to ed port the motion. Viscount MILTON said he we* exactli in the se situation with the Noble Lord who had just spou t Mr. BROUGHAM shortly replied. The Question being loudly c a ll e d f or, the litt divided, when there appeared,. For the Motion, 144—Against 14216—Majority; • Ad s..r iourned at Five eclod t in the Morning. EVENING STAR. LONDON, WEDNESDAY, MARCH 4. PRICE OP STOCKS THIS DAY AT ONE (nun Spoor Ct. itedoes4 61H-4 per Coro. stsf per Ct. C. far online" 6i ti—Do. for ace. 6li Spar Ct. 921 In--Do:ids las. 176., p.--Loog Ap t , 4,4 648, • The enders of the Sraa hale more than once Lena aela to that Trtmisten had resolved neither to ressat4 rot modify "Orders in Conseil. Qt. this veaticn a mist took place last n'ght in the Commons, when k wathaese, they f.hall continue. The sturnaents of the e i g ata , resent a clear view of the rubject in all its bearings, French Papers arrived yesterday after the Srr s west Pi k !Du t their contests were not of such intrriance ab to ituit sc , stop the Press. They present such a phdippic against • as Might be carved, when trsating of she j ilt d ump dly. They aliu mention the capture of Pause*, sod SVCIILT was now directing Lis attention to the SiegeslAg ii These Papers, we are sorry to state, anooonce the the Anna Dorothea, the Ceres, and the John, by the French privateer, which carried them into Rostock. n o Frederica, is taken by the Happy Henry French carried into Travenaunde. A ship of MO tpas , tsyw and rum, from Jamaica, was taken between the Vdi Joe l and 3d February, by the Juno French privateer, sad NNW! de Ras, supposeti to be the Margaret, from Matto*, • NOTTINGIAM, MARCH 2.-114 Town mt.* fah presented a novel, and, in some degree, a trrrik elms The military quartered here attended divine serrate ula bayonrts, to the uo small surprise of the inbatruistr,•ilen not been the smallest appearance of commotion requites. An opinion prevailed (as I am informed) amoog the Coma Authorities, that an attempt was to be made wa the ern prison for thy liberation of the numerous pennies cosiedd on suspicion nt being one way or other eeneelsollie Ihr In kg of frames : a guard of twelve soldlue is third* fiiss the prison to prevent any surprise. An ulnas *boils II for u many of the hussars u could be speraimpreephig &lei to SWIM, the *ldlers being drawn bara thou uil derslielii, dm. whale, we understand, serious deb coadiuti rdingly, a patsy proceeded for that place at dire o'cisdlu earning. To.day the whole of the troops r this tug beighbeurhood were reviewed be °emelt Hamm ; ago the two pieces of artillery belonging to the LOB' Wilde presented a martial and imposing aplearaem-1 fit/MAdegie lescreale of oaupere, the peors Mite love bey, as insupportable burden. NAVAL INTiLLIGENCL FALMOUTH, MARCH 1. Arched the Princess Elisabatt packet, Foautaatt, Falvey; Oche harbour. the k. press, Warms's, hand Rio Janeiro; his Majesty'. &manes Hamlett. trust Pl* to take convoy to the Eastward; the schoooer Alatss,Lat Caesar, from Messina, last from Olbrallsr. The allp Brunswick, DaR H t.s r, horn St. Kites, with sago% foot put in here on Friday last, with loss of main ass#lnlasegrai mat overboard, and great part of her cargo damaged. 11410 Majesty's brig 2' vac* It to the Westward; the Compel convoy for Cork; the Janata, Warta', for at. Midalibl Marione Ann, Caans.von, tor Gibraltat sad hitlta. Mao wiled the following Packets, Math, via-- rough, Rota., and Walionhani, Roads IT 8. for Lgliwo ter, itoonts, for the Leeward Wands"; Frailly*, Pa Jamaica; Lord Hobart, Nepotism for Cidlt; herrn-gator America ; Splay. Sotaaat.strs.fst de terrappean; and Windsor Castle, for Serious and )m FOWEY, MARCH 1. Sailed the Esprow Packet, for Rio ierebvi the Packet, tor Falmouth; the Frederic, cartel, for Marliki brig Henry, fur tie Brasile; the sloop &steep/LAW and the brig Hope, for Dublin. Wind N.N.L. PLYMOUTH, MARCH 1. Came In the Sammons frigate with a boob pierced for to guns, which she captured WM Worani. rived the Matroataxa frigate from Port/mouth. 11411 and other Oaken es board. brood to Lisbon ; Uni gate from the Irish station; mid tie I'o:upsa pe cruise. Sailed the revoratrg sloop of war es evils Westward ; %%MAGI I3oop of war With s Miff hires sad the Janata cartel for Medal: ; N al k am soil Nosy& bon ; Navigator for the Havannab ; Madge. sad New York; and the Coffee Mama, Carmel Dubiln. PORTSMOUTH. MARCH 3. Arrived, his Majesty's Alps NAIAD, Rocas:sr. 4 nos from the Downs, amid the Vas num* 604 4 burgh. Wind S.W. DEAL, MARCH 3. Cams down ?min the River lad eveSl sogaillllll 'n'lsliag the Airs lOphiestone and Maple. Goa Mail him Majesty's Air la Hodge sod Malaga. sod mit tied the fiesamalwa Inner. shot Ise* " Pentommult.—Whid A The eaten end mei of its hiejestre *IP Ai es wi S obboathe Moto days pay to dos Midst die widow tat' dm oaken and men bandy lon a the labili b." Admiralty would ant *bow nab ao mimosa di 1 bang beyond what Is haunt, aad /Maly te Limo &ken e ft WO' COIN MAW r, MAIR•LAML.".•I . O 4I Ire dig" - era arrival. of Wheat, but roierabie supplies ea WI of tbr P" IS vats mei the Nsrth Coontryi ligisatiki ° wag = a siis Mar/ sae, newsy at hot prices. Aye, rater =ill Pod aunty; lobo • liimerise bawl' Mg _ Mid Albite else keep M e i: : 1 wit IN N I. • =III Oila are mil last peke A Floor, watboair imilioa. :...00111e1 DON . Mused by I.lvei t•sur, nea= l published thefts led et the SPlff.laloiT , TA, 4.1 • 1 if, Af • tag ••••• • I I a• :1. Neer Kan In An. ebe V obt 1 by , _ ti, Seca :1.7, the .: F L le 0 le I *lf flaq die ; wit inn. A t • it *ow Iwo Tbt st:A *lan Sht4 low hi' , A $4 Ale ti: WI bi _ I 1,1 114 eall 1 4tl las, les 16 t IA r• 114 IN .