Star. — London, England, 1813-06-15 00:00:00

go to a Comnsittee l writ isklalitbe a l te t e a arid proved. Lord LAUbEkrattittasbted Very much whe ther the laW - expences kir the settling the contested claims of individuals woad not greatly exceed the ex. pence of an application to Parliament. Lord ELLENJ3.O-1 PVGH declared this Wise the most arbitrary Bill he ,had ever seen. It gave t he Commissioners the most unheard of powers, sa chang ing the tenures by which individuals held their pro perty ; so that,: were this, Bill to pass, a man might go to sleep a freeholder, and rise next morning a co py holder. He Moved that it be read this day three months. Lord itEDESDALE said, the Bill consisted of 6o pages, each of which contained several clauses, and there was not a clause against which he had not tnany objections. The very first clause was cues it.ely objectionable. It gave the power of inclosure to 3. sths in value of the property, and the other 2-sths had no other resource but submission, however un justly treated. In this way one individual possessed ut 3.sths of the property might appoint his own s:eward, commissioner, surveyor, &c. and the rest had no redress, but in expensive litigation. After some further observations, the question was put, and the Bill was thrown out.—Adjourned. HOWSE OF COMMONS. Lord RANCLIFFE withdrew the notice which he had given of a motion respecting Parliamentary Reform, which stood for Friday next. In the previst state of the Session, and considering the important business before them, he should not press it this Session, but would bring it forward in the nett. The farther proceedings In the case of the Borthwick Peerage A ere postponed to to-morrow se'nnight. On the question for the House resolving itself into a Committee on the Insolvent Debtors' Bill, Sir S. ROMILLY observed, that it would be advisable, that no very material alteration should be made in the Bill at present, as it might defeat it for the present Session. If the Bill were passed nearly in its prow shape, it would be the adoption of a principle, ansi practical Improvements might be introduced in future Sessions. After a few observations from Mr. KENRICK and Alderman Comae, the House resolved itself into the Committee. Sir S. ROMILLY stated, that the clause which required the imprisonment of the debtor lot six months before he could take the benefit of the Act, imposed upon him the necessity of so long an imprisonment as to famil:arise bim to the habits and morals •l a jail. He therefore proposed, as an amendment, that the word" three" should be substituted for the word " six" months. Alter a few observations from different Menibers, the Corn *mince divided—For the Amendment 22—Against It, 42. The Bill then passed through the Committee without any amendments, and the report was ordered to be received on Wednesday. Sir S. Kt/MILL! asked his Majesty's Ministers, whether any steps had been taken to extend the benefit of those Acts to the Lk of Man ? Hitherto no Insolvent Act had been extended to that iNland, nor was it necessary for the natives, who were 14- Lend from imprisonment on giving up their goods ; tat to Eng /oh debtors in the Isle of Man,theimprisonmentmight last for life. Lord CA.STLEREAGH promised to make enquiry upon that cAr. WHITBREAD presented a petition from Mr. Hargrave, the object of which was to enable him to sell to the public many valuable manuscripts which be had collected at great labour and opense.The petition received, and ordered to lie on the table. Mr. W HAF - C1 ON brought in the Loan WI, which was read a" first time, and ordered to be read a second time tomorrow. ... Mr. FITZGERALD obtained leave to bring in a Bill for the better regulation of the Duty on Irish Malt; and another, to pre vent the use of untnalted Corn in the operations of Brewing. II EL S TON COMM) TT / 1 : E. Mr. SWAN moved the Order of the Day for considering the Rtport of this Coi..mittee. Lord CASTLEREAGH 'Wished it to be postponed, on ac count of the urgency of another business (the India Question), viluch stood for to-night. A lung conversation then took place about the postponing the consideration of this Report, when it was finally resolved to post- Fout it till Monday aut. FOREIGN TREATIES. Mr. PONSON,BY rose and observed, that he had said a few evenings since, that if the. Noble Lord op posite would not consent to lay before the House that part of the Treaty with Russia which was.referred to in the Treaty with Sweden, be should feel it his duty to make a motion for that purpose, as it was impos sible that the House could form any .complete judg ment., or come. properly:prepared to the discussion - of the terms of the Treaty. with- Sweden, while they were left in the dark on the subject of the Treaty with Russia, which was directly referred to - in the former. He, therefore, now thought it right to ap pli.e the Noble Lord, that he meant to move for some other papers connected with the subject, in order to g.ve the Noble Lord time to determine whether he should oppose or agree to their production. The first paper he intended to move for was, an account of all sltns of money advanced or paid to the King of Swe cka by the British Government, with the dates of such cv.Lnces. The second would be, a statement of the diy of the landing of the Swedish army on the Conti tent (as it was called, for he should Rot express it so, as it appeared to suppose Sweden unconnected with the Continent) in conformity with the stipulations of the trially entered into between Great Britain and Sweden. The third paper he should call for was, a Copy of the Treaty concluded between his Majesty and the Em peror of Russia, relative to the subject, if such treaty has been entered into, for he knew not how it stood, tsliether there was a separate treaty or not. Perhaps he might not have rightly shaped his motion, but the answer of the Noble Lord would set him right, and enable him to do so. The fourth and last document which he should feel it his duty to call for was, a Copy of. Extracts of all Papers or Communications th4t may have passed between his Majesty's Ministers ^ d the Accredited Agents of the King of Denmark. nll these he considered essentially necessary to a full and right understanding of the treaty in question, and to explain parts of it which would otherwise be ob scure. The Noble Lord could say whether he was spn:ed to accede tp or refuse these motions, and v ould enable him (Mr. Ponsonby) to shape them, if r the purpose of bringing them forwa r d to - m o rrow , tf: , (tessary.. Let d CASTLEREAGH said, thas he was not prepared to accede to that part of the Right Hon- Gentleman's propositions which regarded the King of htilmat k, with respect to the Tre.ity with Russia, he I%as not authorized by either of the contracting par ties to make it public, but he had no abjection to give as much substantial information on the subject as could be necessary. There was no difficulty what ever as to the advances made to the King of Sweden, u.or as t o t h e l and i ng of the Swedish army, se far as his Majesty's Government had obtained information of the precise date of that event, Mt. PONSONBY said, that he thought the infor. or ation on th e su bj ect ot the Russian Treaty which the Noble Lord professed his readiness to afford, would answer perfectly well ; all he wanted was, Suc h iolormation as would enable the House to de tide npott the Merits of the Treaty. With regard to the laQing of the troupt, the Noble Lord would collect the terms of the first . article of the Treaty§ which stipulated that thefuture advances Were to be made from the time that evert took place; He was only anxious to know from what day Go4ieroment thought Sweden tntitled to the benefit Of the Treaty in this respect, and he also wished to know the amount of the force landed: Mr. MA RRYAT was desirous Of ascertaining froth the Noble Lord whether, in the cession bf the island of Guadaloupe, according to the terms of the Treacly. with Sweden, tho se islands were included which had been heretofore considered as dependencies on Guadaloupe, he meant St. Martin, Deseada, Maria Galante, and the Saintes ? Lord CASTLEREAGH replied, that no other Settlement was meant but Guadaloupe properly so called. Mr. PONSONBY said, that, in order to avoid any misunderstanding, he now begged leave to give notice that he would, to-morrow, make a motion for the pro duction of the papers which related to the recent communications between this Ooverninent and the King of Denmark. • NATIONAL EXPENDITURE. - - - The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved, that the Report of the Committee of Ways and Means should be taken into further consideration, which was agreed to, and the Chairman proceeded to' read the Resolutions. Mr. CALCRAFT begged leave to say something concerning the National Expenditure, which was now become enormous. At the commencement of the year 1809, our annual expenditure was 82 millions, in the present year it had arisen to the unexampled height of 118 millions, being an increase of expence to the amount of 36 millions. The House, as well as the country, he was aware, would be surprised at this amount, and the latter would wonder why it was .not the subject of more frequent discussion. He was extremely anxious to draw the attention of Par. liament to an expenditure so enormous, for he really saw little prospect of an immediate peace from the present position of the nations of Europe, and, there. fore, the subject of our means of continuing the war well merited the consideiation of the Representatives of the people. He apprehended, however, that ano.. opportunity would occur, in which he would be able to state his views at full length. He had mentioned the subject now, for if he recollected right, the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Vausittart), in the course of his statements, had not named the gross sum of our expenditure, but had allowed the House to sum it up from his accounts, probably because he was himself somewhat appalled with-the enormity of the amount. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER declared, that he conceived he had deprecated all discussion by the very ample statement which he had made in the Committee. Mr. CALCRAFT made a few observations, after which, the Resolutions bf the Committee c.mcerning the Expenditure of England were read and agreed to. EAST INDIA AFFAIRS. Lord CASTLEREAGH moved the Order of the Day, for the further consideration of the Affairs of the East Indies. Mr. HOWARTH said, it was almost impossible for the mind of man to produce a measure to which there would not be found some objection, either spe cious or solid. The multitude of objections which had been raised by those who espoused separate sides of this important question, rendered it necessary for him to assure the House, that he believed the ra tional application of knowledge and experience would alone bring them, and nothing else, to a happy con. elusion of their labours. He rose particularly to call the attention of the House to the subject of the sove reignty of the Indies. Lord Grenville, somewhere in his speech, had declared, that the territory of Eng land appertained to the Crown, and that no subject had power to alter the right of dominion. Now it appeared to him very odd that the declaration of So vereignty should be foisted into the body of one of the Resolutions to which the House had given assent —why should that not be more publicly notified, by being transposed to the preamble of the Bill. In India the Company was not known as Sovereigns, but as Merchants ; therefore he conceived it of the first importance that all should be clear and distinctly defined. Sir JOHN NEWPORT said, he had an Amend ment to the first Resolution in contemplation, decla ratory of our sole right of dominion in the Eisr, for he learned that the Company bad laid claim to the eastern sovereignty. Previous to the examination o f witnesses, or the discussion of any Resolution, a de. claration should have beet} made of the sovereign right of the Crown of Britain to the empire of India. It was our duty to do so, as pet-sons who consulted the moral welfare of the people of the East, as well as the commercial prosperity of the nation at home ; he would therefore move to dismiss.all that followed in the first Resolution after the word " that," for the purpose of adding words to the following purport : " 'That the Sovereignty of the Crown of Britain and Ireland over the territories in India was paramount and undoubted, and that Parliament, in legislating, was bound to provide for the civil and religious free dom and moral improvement of the people, without which no prospect of commercial advantage should enter into competition." Lord CASTLEREAGH apprehended, that the discussion of the present question would only tend to retard the progress of the measure at present under contemplation, without being of any advantage to it. No person ever expected that the prerogative of the Crown to the country possessed by the Company would be called in question ; those greater principles were always and every where understood; hitherto Parliament had made all their enactments without snaking any such declarations, and unless some great and signal advantage was expected to result, it would be needless to dep rrt from the common mode of pro ceeding. It was not the custom of Parliament in the legislation of practical measures to preface them with moral maxims and acknowledged truths, besides, he was not aware that the Court of Directors had at tempted to lay down any law exclusive of the Crown, they had claimed property which they lad accumu mulated under grants from the Crown, but that was no territorial claim. It would be impolitic to mention on every occasion the powers of the Crown. and by 'adopting the aMetAtfient; the, would pay a veil bad lotnpliment to aft their pkeceding legislators: Mr. WILLIAM SMITH declared, that In his Opinion; Parliament formerly did not perform its duty in neglecting tO make a declaration similar to that tecOmmended by the Hon. Baronet. He was anxious to have that duty done now; and tvas desir ous that the question should be broadly and eXpli. citly laid down. We were really and truly sovereigns of India, and the dominion over sitty millions of people ought not to be laid aside. All the Resolu tions related merely to the matters of trade and reve nue, and none proposed to consider the highest inte rest of mankind; therefore he did not think Pailiament had done its duty; the sovereignty should have been particularly notified in the foreground of the picture, with the declaration that we had higher duties to perform than the regulation of commerce. He firmly believed that the situation of the British subjects in India was incomparably improved, in comparison of what it was formerly—this compliment was in tended to he applied to individuals, for he did not pay it to the Constitution of the Company. When he witnessed the canvassing for Directorships all over the City, Captain Siuh•a•one for the Shipping Interests, and Mr. Such-a-one for the other interests, he was led involuntarily to exclaim, if India has been well governed it must have been by chance.-- He did not conceive it to be any answer to the Hon. Baronets proposition to say these were truisms, the half of what was preached in the pulpit and laid down At the bar were truisms, for men wanted much t • be reminded of their duty. This was a grave subject, and though the situation of the people of Inii.* was certainly ameliorated, yet they were not so well as they deserved to be, therefore it became the duty of Parliament to do all that was possible for their further ;mprovement. He had heard it mentioned by one of the witnesses, that the land, though producing fruit Ipontaneously and in abundance, contained a multi. titude of wretched inhabitants, who would continue in their wretchedness. Travellers said the same of Sicily, and was it not natural to attribute the same effects to the same cause ? The execrable nature of the Government rendered Sicily wretched ; he did not mean to apply the same to the Company with re. gard to India, but there was a reflection somewhere which he wished to be wiped off. He would give his warmest concurrence to the Amendmeht of the Hon. Baronet. __ Mr. B. BATHURST maintained that the right of the Crown to the Sovereignty of the Indies was un questionable and undisputed ; he could not see what' . - practical or useful tivid the insertion of the words of re cital, proposed by the Right Hon. Bart. could answer. ' They declared several truisms, but although truisms 'were good in a- sermon, the House of Commons was not in the practice of preaching sermons. Undoubt- Aly many defects might be pointed out in the con stitution of the Indian Government, but the assertion of abstract principles could have no effect in re moving them. Mr. HORNER said, the Amendment consisted of two parts—an assertion of sovereignty and a declara tion of duty; the latter he deemed nugatory, after the repeated resolutions and enactments of Parliament on the subject of Indian wars, government, and con quests. The former, hoviever, he should support, deeming it better to declare this right directly, than in the oblique form proposed by the Noble Lord. It was important that some declaration upon this head should be made, as he had recently heard some thing like the shadow of a claim set up on the part of ' the Company, by an Hon. Director (Mr. Grant), for whose knowledge and exertions, on Indian subjects, no one had a higher respect than himself. It was also to be considered, that foreign Powers might at tempt to establish pretences, on the ground that the Parliament of England had left the territorial sove reignty in dispute. Mr. STEPHEN opposed the introduction of the words, as too comprehensive, and as declaring not only that the sovereignty, but the land revenues, were vested in the Crown. Mr. HORNER explained, that he had never de. nied to the East India Company their rights of pro perty, but had said only, that the ten; t Irks acquired by them in war were the dominions of the Imperial G,lvernment. Mr. TIERNEY observed, that the Company had enjoyed in their Charter not only an exclusive trade, but a right to acquire territory and to make wars. It was rather hard, therefore, to claim at once, with out reserve, all which the Company had obtained in tho exer:ise cf this privilege, and without the assis tance of the arms of the Crown. In all former acts for regulating the Company this question was passed by, acid left for after adjudication. No doubt could exist in any man's mind as to the title of paramount sovereignty ; but it did not of necessity follow that , the revenues, properties, and usufruct of the territory were not strictly in the lawful possession of the Com pany who had acquired them, and who in so doing contracted a debt which was the source of all their present embarrassmwts. With respeot to that part of the amendment which regarded the paramount duty of the Legislature to attend to the happiness of the people of India, it should have his support. Mr. PRESTON supported the Amendment. Mr. WILBERFORCE expressed his opinion that the Riouts and mass of the Indian population were in as comfortable a state as could be expected or desired. Mr. C. GRANT had never denied the sovereignty to reside in the Imprial Crown, and had asserted only that the property of t h e so il was vested in the Company by successive Charters and Acts of Parlia ment. Mr. CANNING thought the Amendment unne cessary, since they were at that moment exercising the substantial rights of supreme government, in legis lacing for the tenure by which the Company were in future to hold the territory. The Amendment was then put and negatived without a division. On the Resolution limiting the new Charter to 20 years being put, *Mr. PONSONBY moved, as an amendment, that the word ten be substituted for the word , 4 twenty." Mr. CREEVEY seconded the motion, with a view of voting against the whole Resolution, should the amendment to it be negatived. He entirely disap proved of the junction of the two characters of Mer chant and Sovereign ; and thought the Government of India could never be well directed, unless those tharactql were serwatel. This was the kg tips that the Monopoly had heed retieWeci ; for hi id** consider it it a fitoriopblythe tilde to China (thy . only prbfitable one) being exclusively Vented' to the Company, Without a specific: acknowledgment having • been made td the country. The Nobfe Lord, cons trary to the language he had so often held in that House, did not even mention such a consideration, conceiving that it would be nugatory! how could he t therefore, consent that the Company shotild act both ab Merchants and as Sovereigns t As long as they acted is Merchants only, they riot only did not want assistance, but afforded it to the country i since the junction of those characters, they no longer traded but on the surplus of - their revenue, which depended on the seasons, or war cr peace. But the Indian Di. rector did nto thin of the commercial success of the Company or of the Government of India ; he only thought of the cadetship, writership, the places of su. percargu and in warehouses he should have the disPoiai of. in like manner the old ladies (ii /atrgh J—lor they constituted a great portion of the Proprietors; did net consider whgt Gentlemen would best forward the commercial interests of the Company, or best admi nista the Government of India, but voted for the Gentlernaa she considered most likely to forward her son or nephew. He thought it would be better, if necessary, to enable the Company, by means of a duty, to pay their dividends, than to grant them a monopoly. He thought the influence of the Crown would be much diminished, by preventing the Com pany from being traders. He did not wish to t Judi I their territorial revenue, for h.: wts riot aware of any method by which the Indian empire could be better governed, than by the system or siccession exercised by the Company. Lord CASTLEREAGH said, the observations of the Hon. Gentleman might possibly be applicable to the general subject, but were by no means so to the question now before the House. He had never changed the opinions he had held when President of the Board of Contrnul, as he conceived it was sug. Bested he had on the other side of the House. He was now, as he had been then, of opinion, that the combined monopoly of the India and China trades was profitable to the Company, but Le had never been of opinion that the trade of India alone was a profitable concern ; and so satisfied was he now of the contrary, that if the CompauT were now unwire enough to acquiesce in an arrangement whic:i .4 - mild give them this commerce, and that Parliament were Unwise enough to permit them to ;!ecept of i:, they would inevitably become before the expiration of tune Charter a burden on the public. The cubje.t w..; to be viewed under a two-fold aLvet, ()ix .1 a p•i! , tical, the other of a commercial i: Ai lire :—with respect to the first of these he should observe, that eiert Parlia ment to concur in the opinion of the Right Huns Gentleman, and limit as he wished the Jurgtlon of the Charter, the eff.ct of such Priiitation would be immediately and niost sensibly fe!t by the Cnitipanf in India, the natives would con:ider so contracted 4 grant as indicative of a design in the Got.ertutletit to extinguish their power altogether, tlioy would to certain that their authority was on ti:e wane, and that of the Crown about to be suintituted fl , r it. —Now he did not conceive that there was i..e least reason to risk encountering such ev is as nitt,t neces sarily be the result of such a motion gaining ground: The power of the Company in India was not such as the nation could reasonably entertain any jealousy of, the fact was, that the Government of' India had long ceased to be the Government of a charteretl Company, it was a Pailiamentary Govern. merit, fir the functionaries in India were as much responsible to Parliament for their condact as those in any branch of the Administration ; all the danger, therefore, which it was apprehended would arise from a power too great fur the State to control, was in his opinion purely imaginary, no inconvenience whatever could result from the grant of such a Charter as was now proposed, whereas the most serious evils, as he had already observed, were likely to arise from its being limited to the shorter period of ten years. He now came to the second division of his subject, namely, the Commerce of India : this had been hitherto exclusively in the hands of the Company; but their Cha rter , so f ar as t hi s was concerned, was now about to be dissolved. They were not to monopolise this trade in future, thouizh they were to retain their power as Sovereigns,. that power being necessary to preserve the tranquillity of the country, which would otherwise be endangered in consequence of the numerous' adventurers the open.. ing of the trade would necessarily intriduce ; but in all respects a free trade would be established so far as was compatible with the right of a Chartered Com pany, in whose hands it was necessary to deposit faculties great in proportion to the magnitude of the duties with the performance of which they were to be entrusted. If he were not satisfied in his own mind that Parliament would be fully competent to enforce the observance cf the new system, he would be the first to admit the necessity of abridging the duration of the Charter, in order that they might keep in their own hands the remedy for any apprehended abet-. ration from it ; but he was satisfied that there was no danger to be looked for here which could in the least justify the curtailing and breaking down the authority of the Company in the Peninsula. But if it were . . the chief object o f those who would limit the duration of the Charter, to pave the way to the opening of the China trade, he would not in reply to any argumgns by which they might support such a wish, affecT to say, that if the Company were given up .as an in. strument by which the China trade was fitly . 1113. urged, that no adequate substitute could be had, that no agents appointed by Government could hope • to succeed them with any effect; but this he would say, that this great Company were in full possession of all that chum to election which tried merit could lay claim to, that they had :Aiwa): conducted the trade in question in a manner highly advantageous to the Public.—(Hear, hear! from the Opposition benches).—He had never understood that this was disputed, and he was satisfied that it was the fact they had preserved and fostered amicable feelings between the two nations, and had in every respect improved our relations with the Chinese Government. Such being the case, it was highly inexpedient that we should change the channel through which this branch of our commerce had been so advantageously conducted; and if the principle held, generally speak. ing, it would be found to have particular force when applied to our commercial intercourse with a peost of such peculiar habits as the Chinese, and a 'TWO p pecpliKly conicilicted. He h a d furl IT : . rsct i a. , 1 : v a o . n I : ,p . former. ee n ue e rsirt A d t o h h. f u oea e e s ppN s N ie Hi no a ro o ts ie esb b: nc :l yeo e d th. o n ne L ar : n e dd c a o r e eo n gvt r cro f d art : r e , w nd t ct ea h e : ots s mo a dv, n t i ee d to o h h i rft wr e eoo e tiprb n cl r;4 B ee t e e a du. by the British .Government a a~'.vrnces . The second would d+p of the land M g of the Swedi Went ( as it was called , for he sl e as rt appeared to supp < se Swede r, Continent ) in conformity with 2. tha ty entere d f The third paper he should call Treaty concluded between his .. ptror of Russia, relative to the has been entered into, for he k la uilether there was a separate ti he might not have rightly shap re answer of the Noble Lord we of enable him to do so. The fou sthieli he should feel it his di :t, (opy of. Extracts of all Pape ly that may have passed between 1 and the Accredited Agents of t :it All thew he considered essenti :r e and right understanding of the to explain parts of it which w re 4Ctlre. The Noble Lord coul tl spored to accede to or relu , v ould enable him (Mr. Pons if t the purpose of bringing the (.• lii , (tessary. _ Lord CASTLEREAGH s 1 Prepared to accede to that pa rdi Gentleman's propositions whicl t.ilt" I) temat k, with respect to the 1 ) e vias not authorized by either o by tio's to make it public, but he In t ; as much substantial informae so could be necessary. There M I ever as to the advances made t h tor as to the landing of the Ss c his Majesty's Government had of the p rec i se date of that event tll Mr. PONSONBY said, that on; oratio n on the subject of the opli the Noble Lord professed hi: would answer perfectly well ; 431 such I. oformatiou as would en