Star. — London, England, 1812-06-06 00:00:00

tion the wines of four persons, if the Cabinet stet id waist et twelve, and of five persons, if it should consist of thirteen Mem bers, to be appointed by his Royal Highness the Prince Regent, to fill such situations as might hereafter be arranged. " That his Royal Highness the Prince Regent left the selec tion of the names to Lords Grey and Grenville, without any in struction or personal exclusion ; (hat In completing the arrange ments, the Prince Regent has . granted to Lord Wellesley the entire liberty to propose the names of any persons to hold places in his Royal Highness's Councils, or any other persons." wh. er our decision were or were not dictated by a true sense, of constitutional principles ; whether it were or were not dictated by a just view, as I continue to think, of the nature of the proposition made to us, throughout the whole of our conduct, the faintest ap pearance of personal animosity is not to be traced, nor indeed did it exist in our bosoms towards any in dividnals, who could by possibility be concerned in the arrangements in agitation. I have before disclaim ed, and I do now again solemnly disclaim so unwor thy, so dishonourable a feeling, unfit to have place in the minds of public men, at any period, but above all most unfit to have place in the mind of any man who entertains the design of partaking in the Admi nistration of the Affairs of the Country, at this awful and momentous crisis. —(Hear, hear.)—Had my No ble Friend confined himself to an explanation merely upon this subject, I should not have felt the smallest disposition to trouble the House on the present occa sion with a single word, for I concur with him that at this moment it is desirable that all discussion upon the gei.eral question should, as much as possible, be avoided—but I carnot help remarking, that although I doubt not my. Noble Friend's understanding, I think be has asserted what is by no means correct. I must take leave to state, that the impression made upon my mind by an official and authorised paper, which I was called upon to consider, is completely at //a -fiance with that which he has expressed. It was dis tinctly notified to me in that document that the Prince Regent bad signified his Royal pleasure as to the pet sons who should fill particular offices. Four individuals were expressly named, and the places they should occupy as Members of the Cabinet, pointed out in the written proposal that was submit ted to my inspection. It is necessary for me to give this explanation, because upon that understanding of the words, to my mind obvious and unequivocal, rested the decision which I felt myself compelled to form. r sincerely regret that the Noble Marquis, principally instrumental in these transactions, is nut now present to state to the House his construction of the terms employed, thus affording an explanation equally imsortant to himself and to the country." Earl MOIRA.—" Yon must, my Lords, be sen sible, that were I to discuss the subject alluded to by my Noble Friend, who last addressed you, I should enter opal an investigation as impolitic, as laborious and irregular, because it is impossible that the House should be able to exercise a mature judgment, or to form a deliberate opinion, when there are no facts before it to affuid the requisite information.—(Hear, bear.)—ft would be the more improper, in the ab sence of the individual who is most materially and immediately concerned. With respect however to the conduct ef the Noble Marquis, I would observe, that in my bumble judgment it is impossible that any man placed in a situation of such difficulty, could have conducted himself with more high ho nour, or more delicate uprightness. (Hear, hear.) — Whenever this impostant subject shall be discussed, in which the Noble Lord must necessarily take a prominent part, and the House is called upon to de el.:re its decision, all persons, I am hell assured, will be convinced that what I have stated is strictly true. As to the particular point to which my Noble Friend has alluded, I believe that its obscurity is owing to a deficiency f information : . I imagined that some misapprehension must have existed, and if any delay has been experienced in the establishment of an Ad. ministration, I am persuaded that it has been in a great degree, if not solely, attributable to an unfor tunate misconception. When it shall have been re. moved, negociations I trust may be renewed in those quarters where talents teside, most essential to the due discharge of the arduous functions of the State. delay has occurred, I ani convinced that it has arisen front an earnest desite to obtain assistance from a source most adequate, and not unwilling to atli.rd it." Earl GREY.—" It is far from my wish to pro long any discussion on this subject, in the state in which it at present stands, and I should certainly have done what my Noble Friend (Loid Grenville) stated to be his intention, namely, abstained front troubling:the House with a tingle word, if the state ment made-by the Noble Earl who spoke last had not placed me in a situation where it was necessary to clear myself at least froM misapprehension. It is unquestionably my wish that no ex parte statements siw .1d go foldh to the world before the whole of this 4:4- Fiala question shall be thoroughly and com pletely examined ; but it is above all things neces sary that I should stand clear in the opinion of your Lordships, and in the estimati , n of the public, and it an erroneous assertion has been hazarded by my Noble Friend (Lora Meira), however sure may have been his intension, I must beg leave to correct it : if it be directly adverse to the judgment I have formed alter due deliberation, it is necessary that I should state to this House and to the ccuntry, that in the decision I adopted, I was guidtd, as I think correctly, by a diametrically opposite interpretation, I understand the Noble Lord (Moira) to maintain, in the first place, that the Princeßegent, in the com. municaoun his Royal Highness thought tit to make to my Noble Friend below me, had named no parti cular person to fill any particular situation ; and in the second place, that the proposal came to us per fectly uncircumscribed and unfettered by previous stipulations. That the Noble Earl does so understand it I cannot for an instant doubt, and I much lament that the Noble Mareitris, who was the channel of this authorised communication, is not present to give his interpretation ; but having received that authorised communication fist personally and verbally to my, Sell, and afterwards when it was committed to writ ing, and having understood it accordirg to the na tural and obvious import of the words, it was impos sible for me to act then, or to act now, regarding that proposition, in any other way than that wliicn was dictatedby the plain construction of the language employed. I must here beg leave to read f rom the written document a single paragraph, the substance of which was first personally made known to me " That his Royal Highness the Prince Regent Las signified k's Veasure that MarquieWellebicy should conduct the fprmation elf GovernMent in 011 its branches, and should ix First Com missioner pf the Triusury, and that I.ord Moira, Lord F.r.idne, ond Mr. Canning should he Members of the Cabinet. $f That it was probable that a,Cahinet formed on an enlarged We, must he composed of twelve or thirteen Members : rho Ike Pones Repent wlslied Lords Grey and Grenville, on the part their frierxlms to ramirusad for bit Royal iiitthallo affenbo• This, my Lords, was the proposition made to us, and which we understand as naming particular per sons, and as limiting, circumscribing, and providing by previous stipulated arrangement, that particular places shall be assigned to such particular persons. Under such circumstances, I need scarcely add that the proposal met wi:h my decided refusal, sanction ed by the concurrence of my Noble Friend before me (Lord Grenville), after consultation with my Noble Friend behind me (Lord Holland). It is true, the subsequent explanations have been afforded by the Noble Earl (Moira), but without professing to have any instructions or authority from the Prince Regent. In doing so, I give him full credit for that anxious desire to promote the interests, tranquillity, and prosperity of the nation, which throughout life he has uniformly displayed—(Bear, hear.) These explanations, were, however, private and personal, for the purpose, as he conceived, of removing an im putation upon his conduct; but as I have before said, they were not of an official character. That he was not vested with any, powers for this purpose, is con firmed by a letter from the Noble Marquis, - who, re ferring to these explanations, stated distinctly, that neither he nor the Noble Earl had authority to make any but private communications, and he expressed his regret that they had not. the Prince Regent's ex 'press commands to enter into such explanations as he deemed necessary. I have thought it due to my self and to my friends to notice distinctly these facts, and they were further necessary in answer to what fell from the Noble Earl on the subject of the delay which has occurred. 'l t the private communica tions, with the concurrence of my Noble Friend, I returned a prompt answer, in which I referred to the former official paper, containing the authorized prOposal upon which I had already communicated my determination : at the same time I felt that these personal explanations, if subsequently sanctioned, might remove some of the obvious objections to the detail ; yet they in no degree altered the general prin ciple on whir I had rested my previous decision.- 1 Thus much it appeared necessary that I should say, ! to prevent the possibility of any misapprehension ; and I lament sincerely, that, in consequence of the speech of the Noble Earl, it was utterly impossible for me to remain silent." Earl MOIRA.—" The great difficulty that has arisen rests solely upon the construction to be put upon the document from which the Noble Earl has read a passage ; and I confess that they strike my understanding in a point of view directly opposite.— The Noble Lords would probably have thought with Me, if they bad possessed the same means of judg. ing ; for in a previous interview with the Noble Mar quis, I had an opportunity of knowing the real sen timents by which he was actuated in drawing up the written proposal. The Noble Marquis will hereafter have an oppostunity of bearing testimony to the cor o:ctiscss of my statement ; the whole subject was opened with a spit it of the utmost fairness, and with a sincere desire to leave ample room for subsequent discussions and arrangements. With regard to the nomination of individuals, it was to be understood to be a mere statement of a wish on the part of the Il lustrious Per:onage who administered the power to the Noble Marquis : and it was naturally believed that the names introduced would be acceptable to the Noble Lords, because they showed the amicable tone and dispcsition in which the proposal was made. For the last' 7 years, it is known that I have not be longed to the party usually designated as the Oppo sition : and though free from all political engage ments, yet our views in general have been so accor. dant, that I have voted with them, perhaps upon more occasions than even some of those Noble Lords who have been stiled their firm political friends ; and this circumstance may thew at least the disposition with which my name, with ethers, was inserted as an individual to be honoured with a seat in the Cabinet. —I see likewise a Noble and Learned Friend (Ers kine) whose name will be noticed, and to whom the same remark will apply. I can conceive nothing that more decisively and unequivocally shews the in tention w ith which the proposal was framed, than the circumstance that it points to the political friends of these to whom it is addressed. The House will also remark, that there is no designation of particu lar offices, or indeed of any one office, so that all was left open to the fullest discussion : and I shall be much Eurprised when the Noble Marquis is atfor tied an opportunity of making his statement, it he does not confirm my opinion, 'lint his instructions were of the most general and liberal nature. I will even go further, for unless the nature of the inter view between the Noble Masquis and the Noble Lords was of ,t nature entirely different from that which 1 obtained. the Noble Marquis must have stated dis. tincly that all ulterior arrangements were to be mat . ter of ,future free and unshackled discussion. But, my Lords, I am deviating from the course I would I . lay down, and I am shewing in my own person the unfitness of arguing a question bef o re th e n e cessary information is supplied. The uuth is, that I put one construction upon the paper, and my Noble Friends put another ; and surely I have a right to contend I that it lias been misapprehended : and 1 oking at the service of the country as the object in view, it will not be denied that it is a laudable attempt to remove the misconstruction. It might perhaps be expected ; by some Noble Lords on the other sicl!. that I should , disclose something regarding the present state of the negotiation; but though I would disco untenance any such communication at present, yet it it be required I ; shall not shrink from making it s but it will not be for-' gotten that it was only yesterday morning that I was able to ascertain what course of proceeding ought to be adopted. Our efforts hare hitherto failed, yet (looking towards Lords Grey and Grenville) even at this me). meet my hopes of conciliation and union are not ex tinctin a quarter where I am anxious that my offers shall be accepted, ancrwhich has candidly manifested a disposition to promote the general object. It has ) been admitted on all hands r that a crisis of greater Idanger and difficulty never was known—a moment whin the ;wavy claimed Uwe ausiously the service of every man who is capable of rendering Matinee, ble Friend inadvertently. Cert a i n I am, that was never recorded in our annals ; and I hope, that was in the slightest degree intended to apply neither these nor any other discussions may comma- high authority on whose part it has b een an nicate to public men, as lam sure they will not to properly disclaimed; and lam fully sat isfi e d me, any sharpness of spirit which may delay, or was not intended to apply to any indirideo., perhaps even defeat, an object on all accounts so es• really inadvertently dropped by my Nobl e sential to the welfare and perhaps the existence of the at the moment. My Noble Friend may ha, British Empire. Under these impressions, I wish at encounter with prejudices and dislikes, but / present to go no further, and shall sit down, repeat- I tiafied that there slid not, nor does exist, ing my firm conviction of the spirit of conciliation of any individual, any thing like person a l _. with which the original proposal was made to my nor did my Noble Friend lu.end so to a p p k, Noble Friends." I phrase. My Lords, if I may be p erm i tted te ' Lord ERSKINE. 44 The House will, I hope, few words as to the cause of the failure of t h e excuse me, if, after what has fallen from the Noble j elation conducted by my Noble Friend, I Earl, I feel it necessary to say a few words upon this that its failure arose not from any causes tha t subject. It appears to me that the real question to have actually prevented its ultimate auccess,a be decided is, whether my Noble Friends are justi- my Noble Friend having in the first it, fled in putting the construction they bold upon the ceived too sanguine an idea of success. lwritten proposition made to them, and this construc• Marquis (Douglas) has suggested the pope , tion .was to be ascertained by a candid and fair peru- pointing a day for thediscussionef the sula sal of the paper ? I confess for one, never having in the circumstances which have been ' seen the document, or indeed heard of it, until it House. It is not for me to state to your WAS read to me in company with others, I put the r what would be a proper course of pros., same construction upon it as that which is enter- such an occasion, but I am thoroughl y tained by my two Noble Friends. That the proposal that my Noble Friend (the MerquisW:" was made in themost liberal spirit, and from the most hail the day of such a discussion, whe n honourable motives, cannot be denied ; and had the conduct in this transaction would b e , object been attaine d, the deliverance of the country Lordships, with the greatest satisfaction. Te e from its present calamities could not have been placed Marquis (Douglas) has, however, made • in better hands. It was, however, most mate.ial, that tam, in which 1 cannot agree, that success those who, at the present crisis, when all are impe- be expected in an application made by riously called upon to exert their utmost talents for Friend to these with *hom he essentially the welfare of the state, sefused to accede to the pro- political subjects, and who were, as the I position, should point out distinctly, and beyond the quis expresses it, political enemies. My possibility of doubt, the solid grounds on which they cannot at all agree in this observatio n i I rested. It is at all times desirable that public men Friend and the Noble Lords to wh om e l should stand clear in the opinion of the nation, and agreed entirely upon one great point, th e . as the interpretation I put upon the document was of a numerous class of his Majesty's precisely that which my Noble Friends entertained, I upon ocher points it does not appear to me„ thought it right thus shortly to express my concur- were any thing more than technical difficulties rence in the sentiments they have expressed." stood in the way of a satisfactory error The Marquis of DOUGLAS—" I obtrude myself tween my Noble Friend and the ' unwillingly upon the House for the purpose of im- luded to." pressing upon Noble Lords the imperious necessity The Marquis of DOUGLAS wished to for prompt and vigorous measures. At a period ac- consideration of the subject during the • knowledged to be as ithout parallel, we have now been the Noble Marquis. for some weeks confessedly without a Government. The LORD CHANCELLOR.--el M I cannot by any means concur in the interpretation am so strongly convinced of the impropriety put upon the paper by the Noble Earl (Moira), but tinuing this discussion, particularly when theft I coincide entirely in opinion with my Noble Friends questisat before the House, that I shall *V near me, that it would have placed them in a situa- duty to move an adjournment, or at leant , tion where they could not conscientiously act, and that this House do at its rising adjourn till which, if they had consented to have held, would I 'have heard, however, with great satisface se have been equally unconstitutional and impolitic.— Noble Lord (B iringdon) state, that the The opinion to which I have come has been clearly used by the Noble Marquis, not now le, expounded by any Noble Friends, and until further ful personal animosities, does not apply to investigation at the proper time convince me to the dual whatever. Had there been any qr contrary, I shall continue to hold it. In the present discussion which involved this point, I . condition of affairs something ought to be done, not heard all that might have been said by any only for the country, but for public men, and it is due Lords upon this subject, meaning myself, at a to the Noble Marquis that aspeedy explanation should elusion, to have must distinctly disclaimed, m be afforded. I will not myself suggest any particular part of myself and all those individuals day for the discussion of this very interesting subject, any feelings whatever of personal animosity. but I would recommend that some Noble Lord, ac- to prove, my Lords, that I entertain no fedi' .' quaintest with the engagements of the Noble Marquis, animosity towards the Noble Marquis (Welk should name a period that he imagines will be conve. who is not now present, I do most nient. I will not detain the house longer than to your Lordships not to proceed in , make a single remark upon the probability that the the absence of that Noble Marquis. My . Nable Marquis was actuated cn;y by a wish to con- a subject in which the expressions used by ciliate in the offer he was instructed to make, and ' Marquis form so prominent and material a I uhich was refused, according to my. views, fur the Ido earnestly hope that your 7----' " ' most solid and indiapensible reasons. I confess, that proper not to proceed further in iit never appeared to me likely that the Noble Marquis, that Noble Marquis is not present." 1 whose political opinions on nearly all subjects, were The discussion here ternunated.—A sr opposite to those of my Noble Friends, should be House Adjourned till Monday. able to effect that union of parties and sentiments, . which at the same time that it is so desirable; it is so . HOUSE OP COMMONS, TUNE fr difficult to procure." - Accounts from the Commusimers of Public Re ec k as th e In•pector•Oeseral of Esporu and Imports, i The Duke of ATHOL.—" I had not; any Lords, f teldered to lie cn 0 u taw s . the honour to be present in the House when the ex- General GAILVIGNE gave' notice, tbst be me% pression; an explanation of which has this night been day, move for leave to amend the Act, passed hi tic' given, was employed ; but %then it reached my ears I of trurnitent, l rofte b t er ImP ae lavellient e t t Weep or eed Dahlill "- mos immediately conceived that it had been hastily ut tered, and that it was impossible in times like these ing i n h t e Customs of Ireland being brought up, Sir JOHN NEWPORT said, that at an that pet tonal animusities'c add agitate a British breast. period of the present state of the Govenuneetr At present, I think further discussion would only be productive of injury, and had I been in my place on stated the House to be in a dilemma how to actirie respect to grants of the public money. Their making a former night, I would have deprecated then, as I do now, the discussion into sshich we have been led. grants, under existing circumstances, might be cm sidered irregular, while their withholding them, ia I do not trouble the House often with making j speeches, but I trust that I shall not on that account p some instances, might be productive of public awn . venience. He could wish a line drawn to regohn be the less forward to devote my life and fortune to the service of niy country. I own that I heard with the conduct of Parliament in such a situatios• It was not his intention to impede the measure befall sorrow what fell from a Noble Earl (Moira), which the House in its progress, in my humble opinion was calculated only, by pro- nor to oppose it till it ar• rived at its last stage, long before which, be tread, mining debate, to fogs r the evil he was anxious to de. i a regular Administration would be formed. Ti stroy. For my own part, whenever the Prince Regent, Irish Custom Acts of last Session did not expire iii exercising the duties of Majesty, shall have formed an the sth July, and as the measure proposed resPedni Administration competent to the discharge of their public duties, I shall never be a caviller for particu- them, was not new, but only went to continue t io present duties, and involved a question which go tar men or particular measures, being willing to sup pert both the one end the other, when the object is the not necessarily affected by a change of Ministers'' , conceived no inconvenience-could arise, if some aq rrosperity and welfare of the State. I shall neither were made, before they came to discuss it io itsl et j. in the partyon the one side nor on the s ther, but shall stage . support those men whose wish is to save their country. I an ready to admit that there are men on,the other felt Mr. W. POLE rose only to state the pleasure is in acquainting the Honourable Baronet that lit side of the House, able from their talents, and willing from their disposition, to join in so laudable an un- Custom Duties would not be this year atignmetell i Colonel BASTARD declared, that there awed, dertaking, and I trust that their assistance will be to him less hope than ever of constituting a vira l obtained to extricate us from the perils, real or ima. and efficient Government, unless the House true* pinary, by which me are.encompassed. Gon forbid at should not be so. lam no party man, and for , solved to interfere.—(Neer, hear.) He could astl. lieve that the feelings of the country, or its conthigt thirty years I have supported with zeal and fidelity . our King, and the best parts of our Constitution ; in • internal or external, could have been faithfully r e p o t anted to his Royal Highness, or that the necessited, these sentiments I have risen from my cradle, and in these sentiments, I trust, I shall descend into my redressing the grievances of the people had been aa• t ficiently impressed upon the Royal mind. Hernial! grave. My principal object in rising was to depre cate further discussion, more particularly at this mo. therefore that the House would not suffer an ethlr day to pass without expressing the sense the, eat lP went, when the public feeling is alive, and which can only inform the nation that no determination had tained of the importance of addressing the Prince R` gent as to the dangers that envirdn the country, ir_ yet been formed. Under such circumstances, I trust the great events which might be anticipated in NI! that the negociatiens will be suffered quietly to pro. North of Europe. He had no predilection far Ng ' ceed, that an arrangement satisfactory to all may be party before another, but he had some read's" , accomplished. I have no place to seek, no favour for his country—(dtae, hear). to ask, I speak only as a British subject, on the General GISCOIGNE stated, that it had 1120 broad feeling of love to my King, and safety to my 5 Colliery." his intention s either that day or the next, 3 .. best meet the pleasure if the House, to move so etti" Lt rd t3ORINGDON. My Lords, having the : dress to the Prince Regent, which, with their pas* honour to be in the habits of friendship with the No- sion, he would read. ble Marquis who has been alluded to, I think it right Mai The SPEA KER fetid, that as there was akolll (although I have had no communication with him a question before the House, the Honourable ._..b upon the•subject i l particularly after what has fallen could rent , consistently with its orders, i from the Noble uke respecting the expression used w h at wou ld f orm t h e m a t t er of another and a bee ll ogi: 1 ; by my Noblb Friend, of ' dreadful personal animosi. question, ties,' to state to your Lordships my firm conviction Mr. WORTLEY was sensible of the deep ems d that the expression alluded by dropped from spy No- felt at present both by the House an • gee Cotultria _ I , 1 1 t • kin I ant, thatitik, nded to apply so' has been so jus t l y or fully satisfied chit Ye ea 17 i s i l dni du ly b u b t ‘ll e divia : l ehil a h ; 4 l 1 7 6 :, oes exist, on th e e personal as mil so to apply I• e failure of the D n 'le e ni ff a ;r i t t P :e i cc ul :nrcuniud:cue:citits,esitsedisects4:ht • u t w ai ql °I it : be first ins:an ee ed the propfe.y e i • 1111 Ave been stated is , • ate to you r L ot , e of proceeding ci thoroughly con • S quit Wellesley) ion, when hi s would be befog. tisfaction. Th e ver, made an • it that success could 6 made by al essentially A n d re, as the Noble ,envies. My Ludi. • • nervation ay to whom ht point, the • • .4 Jajesty's subject; ppear to trie,dut :finical difficulties , [WIT arrangeme nt h. l the Noble Lads 1 LS wished to defer during the absence OR.--m My Lords, the impropriety of tor. ularly when thew that I shall feel-nay I nt, or at least to sat g adjourn till Welt 4 great satisfaction te, that the exam , i Pt now present, of not apply to doy 114 een any questa cola lis point, I ihadd m said by any Not,ii Hang myself, at theca,. ;fly disclaimed, sa i tonal animosity. AM entertain no feeli Marquis (Wellry), luis. My Lords, ups ions ascd by that Nat 3d material a part of Lordships will thin . in this discussions Ms went." atel—After whick )NB, its p cc, O danbscdihn t .:tgg L itaruheretobton:tthetit • tout he walk a Plb da /011100 t Of DOM Raba it Ways sod Wan". wen up , sid, that at an ank F the Govern:Nati I lemm ttdaii money. Their 11 4 i m, i l d u a c n t c iv es e ' of public inow • such drawn an:dmseisnii