Star. — London, England, 1820-06-27 00:00:00

'rirwiew. r- . ; •;_,, mr-wv -. ' • • _ , • .Z ° ,, . t .•' . • . P 1.... . ? . . . . . .. • 1 .. t: ? . • •• t , • - ' . • .). . 4 7 ' • . . ........ 4 / 1 11 • re,- • e . . . . . .. . ... E r , .. N • ' • . I ,'-‘s '414 ..; . . . .. - • 4, qi 1 _,. St••lit . . ' I . .s. ...II p,.. V' . . -*l '''. '‘..... 14 *. - . ) . s . , • a `7lll. .t , • - • 11,10.0•• I . - . NIDER 10,402. PARLIAMENTARY PROCEEDING& HOUSE OF LORDS, JUNE 211. earl retertactla took the oaths and his seat. Lord EiISKIICE presented five Petitions from Occupiers of I 7.t , t: i:; the County of Nottingham, praying for 'Parliantentary Fr og c:ion to the Agricultural Interests. His Lordship, in pre serail g the Petitions, declared it to be his opinion, that none of the gr,..tt interests of the empire could, consistently with the I .:wral welfare, become the subject of legislative considetation u:! :ot exclusive principle; but that the prosperity of all con . .:rd in their receiving equal and due regard in their applies-1 t to Parliament, as far as the interference of Parliament was ..e and salutary. l'htt Earl of LAUDERDALE, presented a Petition from tie Ch..mher of Commerce in Glasgow, praying for a modifi .....:ea of the existing Duties on the importation of Foreign 7.:nher. Mr. S. WoR/t.tv, Mr. lIoN-rvvroori, and others, brought up !Ns. Irish Commercial Credit Bill, the l'welye Millions Loan 1..11, the Fended Debt CharT2 Bill, and eighteen Private Bills, ich were ttil read a first time. The Population Bill was also brought up by Mr. Davin Cgri ) FAT, and read a first time. . Mr. /la tase,from the Trinity House, brought up a Copy of the Memorial Of the Chamber of Commerce, Plymouth, laid before that Corpetr..ioo. Sal GREY said, he held in his band a Petition from George Guythorne Butt, now confined in Whitccross-street Prison, praying for whatever relief the house might think proper to extend to hint under the cireutnstancesof his case. It appeared by the statement of the Noble Earl, that the Petitioner had brought an action of false imprisoument against Sir Nathaniel Conant, fur having committed him on a charge of libel. The ast.o:i was tried in the Common Picas, and a special verdict re tained ; upon which special verdict, .the Judges had resolved the committal to have been comet, and the Court pronounced a decision, which bound the Petitioner for the costs of the ;.,:tioa ; for nonpayment of which he was committed. This de cision, according to his (Earl Grey's) opinion, was unwarranted by any law, and he had submitted a motion relative to the sub j: -et, at the time when a circular letter was, he conceived, most illegally sent to the Magistrates by the Secretary of State for cb Home Department, recommending to them to act in execu tion of this assumed power. He had nut heard anything which caused him to alter his opinion since, nor had he been induced, by reflecting on the subject, to consider the exercise of such an : - ..nhority, as anything else than an usurped power on the part of tht: Magistrates, who, in committing for libel, before verdict, wen: not warranted by old and established law, but were act ing in contravention of the Constitutional Liberties of the Press, the great guardian of all other liberties.. He considered the Pe :::inner -to be greatly and deeply aggrieved—but whether the Petition was sufficiently respectful or not, or whether in conse quence of the decision of the Judges, the House could take any step relative to it, were points for their Lordships to decide upon. But he could net help thinking that the subject, in some shape, was highly deserving of their Lordships' consideration. The LORD CHANCELLOR stated, that he had no objec tion to receive the Petition. It was, however, the opinion of the Judges, that the Petitioner bad no just cause of complaint. The Petition, however, ought to be received, as it ndght lead to some further consideration of the subject. Atter a few words from Lord Easvice, the Petition was ordered to lie on the table. PETITION FROM HER MAJESTY. Lord DACRE rose and said, that he claimed the indulgence of the House in rising without previous notice to present a Petition from the Queen, which had been but a short time before put into his hands,' and which he held it to be his duty to present, as in every case where a Petition was properly and respect fully worded, more especially as her Majesty had not been able to procure it to be laid on their Lordships" table by the hands of their Speaker, which he con s eived would have been the most proper way of con s.2ying it to their Lordship. As, however, it had teen put into his hands, he intended to propose such a measure as it could aushorise and require, and he tnought their Lordships would concur in it, when they - heard the Petition read from her Majesty the Queen. The Petition complained of the mode adopted by their Lordships of entering into the investigation .of her conduct by means of a Secret Committee; and it complained of the mode in which that plan.of in quiry was instituted. It also stated, that she had not been allowed time to procure witnesses from the Con tinent to refute the charges against her, and naturally complained of the impression that might be made elsewhere by a partial decision before she could be enabled to rebut the evidence against her, and to re move the prejudice consequent upon an es-parte Re port. The Noble Lord then proceeded to say, that he felt it his bounden duty to make this statement before he presented the Petition, unacquainted as he' was with the real circumstances of the case, further than they appeared in the public acts relative to them, as he never had before a part in any transac tion with her Majesty, and never had the honour of a similar communication. He should have deserted v.hat he conceived to be his duty, if he had declined t..) perform the office which be now discharged for a pet son under accusation, and against whom proceed ings had been adopted, in the justice and propriety of which he could not concur. He had taken a for mer opportunity to express his opinion genet ally upon that subject, but he did not•then express what he now did, and what had been expressed more strongly else 'here, that it was unbecoming the character of the House, and contrary to the best interests of the Crown and People, to proceed upon a Secret Com mittee, suddenly and hastily formed, and against which the feeling throughout the Nation was notori ous—a Committee, too, whose appointment was in the hands of Ministers, and several Members of which had already expressed their opinions upon the subject on which they were to report. if that Committee was to be viewed in the light of-a Granif Jury, as he had been , iven to understand by the Noble and Learned Loiei on the Woolsack, he implored their Lordship to consider what was its formation. No less than four out of the fifteen Members were Cabi net Ministers ; there were also two Noble Lords high in character from situation and profession, high in authority in the Church, and to whom, he was sure, the Country looked with hope and respect, yet who, from . having been p art i es to t h e exc l us ion of her Ma s name from the Church Service, must have considered her unworthy of being personally noticed in the Liturgy, and therefore could not but have formed their opinions. One of those Noble Lords was the responsible person in isdviiing the cancelling of the Dame ; at least, in the true spirit of the C,pirstrtn con, that Most Reverend Prelate could have been Cie onlrresponsible adviser. He vanyld.not trespass C. tine time of their Lordships brxemarking parti- • .1t.Sille*Ihr01.1"1"04111 cularly upon other Members of tha Committee . ; . but there were several others, who, from their situation, or ether circumstances, were regarded by the Nation is having a bias against the interests of the Il lnstri•' ous Person whose conduct was now under considera tion. He hoped theic Lordships would opnsider well the great interests which were involved• is this ques tion, the close and vital connection *.vilich it had with the honour and character of the Crown and Country, and the alarm which it. had excited and spread from one end of the Kingdom to the other.— At least hi trusted that they would consider how far the claims of her unfortunate Majesty had the equi table and just grounds which would make them de serving of being entertained by their Lordships in the same way as the fair claims of every English subject. It was not, therefore, too much to require, that her Majesty should not be. proceeded against further, until sufficient time had been allowed her to bring over from the Continent, persons to establish , her innocence. But, as she likewise prayed to be lietrd by Counsel at the Bar of the House, who could support her claims by stronger arguments than any which he conld urge, be would decline saying any thing more at present, than to move—" That . the Petition do lie on the Table." • The LORD CHANCELLOR came down from the Woolsack, as he felt himself called upon by the state ment of the Noble Lord, to assure the House, that it was not any feeling of disrespect, or any per sonal motive whatever, which had swayed him in de clining to present the Petition, but he owed a duty, a great duty to the House, while he had th e e honour of presiding there, which was paramount to all indi vidual considerations ; under that feeling, and that alone he had acted, and was prevented from present ing the Petition by the situation which he held in that House, thinking it would be more proper that :illy other Noble Lord should perform that Office, than one who sat in the place which he had the ho nour to occupy. He was not actuated by any motive disrespectful to the Illustrious Person on whose part it was preferred. He would take the liberty of stating, that he had not three minutes to consider the subject, but in that time he had necessarily come to the conclusion, that it would be more consistent with propriety, that the Petition should be presented by any other Noble Lord in.preference to himself. He did not, besides, know what mode there was of re ceiving a Petition, when presented from a perscirt of that lank, and though he did not intend to oppose it, he did not know of any precedent on which it was founded. He had before been blamed by Noble Lords, for having refused to present a letter from the same Illustrious Person. He wished to have done it, but on looking through their Lordships' Journals, he found he was not justified. He was similarly cir cumstanced at present. He would say but a few words upon the subject—if he had erred, it was not, out of disrespect to the Exalted Petitioner, but it was 'in observance of a sense of solemn public duty ; and he would rather suffer death than act against his con viction on a constitutional principle. He was not aware how far it was consistent with precedent, that the Petition should be received, but as it was his de cided opinion, that a person of that rank should be enabled, some how or other, to approach the House, he would not object to its reception. Earl GREY observed, that no person could doubt that the Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolsack always acted under the sense of a faithful and con scientious discharge of •his duty in that House, and upon every other occasion. He was convinced that no other motive but a feeling which his duty re quired of him, could have prevented him from beink the bearer of the Petition which had been presented by his Noble Friend. But he (Earl Grey) would be permitted to state why he could not agree in ths. view which he took, in this instance, of his duty. It was his opinion that the Noble and Learned Lord had not, by the situation which he filled on the Wool- sack, any duty to perform different from that of other Noble Lords when requested to present Petitions from subjects complaining . of wrong and injury.— There was no such distinction as had been just now described between the Learned Lord and others, in such a case. He (Earl Grey) had he beenin the same situation, and having but one minute for considera tion, would have been satisfied that in resolving to present the Petition, he would not act contrary to the forms, or disrespectfully towards the character of the, House, but would have felt himself bound, without pledging himself to any opinion on the case, of which; indeed, he was yet ignorant, to lay the Petition on their Lordships' table. The House was open to all Petitioners who approached it respectfully, and it - , was the duty of every Member to give access to their prayers. The Noble and Learned Lord acted under a mistaken notion of the nature of his situation there, without being in the slightest degree influenced by any impurity of motive. He could not avoid saying this much upon the impropriety of the distinction which had been drawn between one Member of that House and other individuals, whose duties were pre cisely the same. The LORD CHANCELLOR said it was his sin cere wish to avoid saying many words upon the sub-1 ject. But what had been stated by the Noble Lord who had just spoken, had been frequently maintained, by other Noble Lords on the same side of the House. If their view was the proper one, the majority of that House had but to inform him (the Lord Chan tenor) of it, and if they imposed duties much greater he VMS satisfied. The House had but to tell him his duty and he would faithfully discharge it. He again said, that although he had no objection to receiving the Petition, yet he was not aware that any Petition of that kind had ever before been presented. He repeated, that he had but three minutes to consider of it, but on subsequent, reflection he 4i d not feel that he had violated his own duty, or rgotten his duty to the House. Lord HOLLAbiD bore testimony to the conscien tious manner in which the Noble and Learned Lord TUESDAY, JINE,Stei 1020. • • - • . Aiseharged his duties. But he could not help *hit; that he conferred with his Noble Friend ILord Grey) as to his view of what those duties were . .. it *as bis opinion, that the duties which the Noble Lord per formed, when rising froth the woolsack; sieve to be regulated as those of every other Member of that House. One thing was of great importance, that their Lordships should apprehend that no Petition coming through his hands, could receive force or authority in any other way than from .his judgment and learning, if he favoured its prayer—but not from his being the organ of the House. But he was convinced that he acted in this, as in every other instance. from pure, delicate, and honourable motives. He had forgotten; however, that all Peers of Parlia ment were equal. No Member of that HoUse could address it with greater authority than another. If his rank conferred on him the power of doing so, it would be destructive of the freedom of debate.— Nothing could be inferred from a Petition having been presented by any one Peer more than would follow fw. its being presented by another. Tibe NolsleaQ Learned Lord had spoken of the difficul ties which the subject brought with it. He (Lord Holland) believed that he was correct in stating, that he had searched the Journals in vain for a preceient of a Petition from a Quern of England to that House. But when there was no other mode of approaching that House brit through 'a Petition presented by a Noble Lord, it might have been as well if that Pe tition had been presented by the Noble Lord who had been first applied to. As to the argument re specting the letter, it did not apply to the present case. Such a letter migin indeed receive some au thority from that mode of communication, but it was otherwise with a Petition. He could not pay that compliment to the situation which the Noble and Learned Lord held in that House, as to suppose that he could present a Petition oa any other grounds than as a Member of that House performing a duty in his place, as it might be performed by any other. The situation was not, in that respect, of the smallest _ importance. The Earl of LIVERPOOL said, that he agreed in the propriety of receiving the Petition, and he agreed lot because it was-of a novel nature, and that there was no precedent analogous, but in the absence of all precedent, upon the clear public principle, that every subject, from-the lowest to the• highest, had access by Petition to that House. It was only to be considered, whether the mode was in some cases to be of a tnore•solemn and digtified character than.in others. But he could not agree in what had fallen from the Noble Lords opposite in the course of their observations upon the .opinions pronounced by the Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolsack. , He ad mitted that all Peers were equal in their duties and privileges as Lords of Parliament, and if individuals had no access to the House but through one Peer, he would concede that that one Peer should be under a peremptory obligation to present such Petition. But as the fact really was, that every individual Peer could afford that access, there might be applications made to that House very properly through some Peers which could not come as well from, nor, indeed, be , entertained at all by others. He was sure that if any of their Lordships were, for instance, requested to present a Petition which reflected on a near relation or friend, they would object to the request. There were,therefore, particular circumstances which might make a Petition more proper in the hands of one Member than another. He would say, likewise, with reference to those who filled the situation of the King's confidential servants, that it would ill become them to present Petitions against measures whic) they had thenitelves advised. The Marquis of LANSDOWN argued, that the absence of a precedent should not have prevented the Petition from being presented. The principal duty of a Peer, with respect to Petitions, was, to observe that they were properly worded : and, al though circumstances might make -it sometimes more eligible for one Noble Lord to present a Peti tion than another, yet there was no perpetual dis tinction on account of any situation which was held by any of their Lordships. Every Lord had cer tainly the right of exercising a sound discretion, to surrender which, would be to surrender one of the most valuable privileges ; but the Learned Lord on , the Woolsack had not urged any such reason ;•he had spoken of a distinction which did not exist. The Noble and Learned Lord held duties as a Peer which he could not relinquish—duties which were common to all their Lordships ; and when the Learned Lord was called to the Woolsack by the King, he was still bound to discharge his duties in Parliament in the same manner as every other Peer: He therefore fully concurred in the opinion stated by his Noble Friend, though at the same time he wished to be understood as not casting the most remote reflection on the motives of the Noble and Learned Lord in de clining to present.the Petition. The LORD CHANCELLOR in explanation said, he was fully sensible that he came to that House to discharge all the duties, and claim all the privileges of a Peer of Parliament ; and be also 'admitted, that whenever a Petition was put into his bands to be laid before their Lordships from any individual, how ever high, or holvever low, he should be wanting in his duty were he to refuse to bring it before the Hduse. But he had another duty stifl to perform, of perhaps equal importance, and that was, to respect the forms of the House, and to protect the privileges of the Peerage. Now this was the first time, as far as he knew, of such a Petition being presented to their Lordships, and after the three minutes consi deration which was allowed him, he did come to 8e conclusion, that the forms of the House rendered it less proper for him to present it than any other No. ble Lord. He might be in error; but, good GOD! was he to be told that his refusal was dictated by personal motives, because be had thought it ncry con sonant with his duty, from the situation which he had the honour to hold, to bring the Petition before ± • • • Jc" • I direr Lordships ?. He timid- 410ter them, that nothing of that kind . should ever influence him in the course of the procezdings. He might be in error, but he should always act conscientiously; and homisst ob !et ve, that had he infringed on the forms of the House, by acting as he was now told he ough t to have lone, the Noble Lord and the Noble Baron would, in a gentle way, have taken upon themselves to instruct him to the better performance of his duty. The Marquis of LANSDOWN and Lord .Hosa.Auri explained. After a few words from Lord ERSIIME, the Pe tition was brought up and read, of which the folloc• - ing is a copy : " TO TIIR LORDS SPIRITUAL AND TRUPORAL, IN PARLIASIIINT ASSEMRLRD. 0 CAROLINE, I. " The Qum's, having been informed that proceedings are about to be instituted against her in the House of Lords, feels it necessary to approach your Lordships as a Petitioner and a fellow '-subject. She is advised that, according to the forms - of your Lordships House s , no other Mode of communication Is permitted. " Now, as at all times, she cletlaAs her perfect readiness to :meet every charge affecting het' honour ; and she challenges the most complete investigation of her conduct : but she protests, in the first place, against any Secret Ihquirl• : and if the House of Lords should, notwithstanding, permit in a proceeding so contrary to every principle of justice and of law, she must in the next place declare, that even from such in unconstitutional course she can have nothing to apprehend, unless it be insti tuted before' the arrival of those witnesses whom she. will r tm mon immediately to expose the whole of the machinations Against her. She •la anxious that :here should now be no delay whatever in finishing the inquiry ; and none shah be occasioned by her Mansvr. But the Clow cannot suppose that the House of Lords will commit so crying an injustice as to autho rise a secret examination of her conduct, in the absence of her self and her Counsel, while her defence must obviously rest open evidence which for some weeks cannot reach this country. The instant that it arrives, she will entreat the House of Lords to proceed in any way they may think consistent with the ends O f justice; but in the meantime, and before the first step is taken, her blamer desires to be beard by her Counsel at your Lordships Bar, this day, upon the subject matter of this Petition." Lord DACRE then rose, and said that the Peti tion had been put into his hands so short a period before he presented it to their Lordships, that he had only time to read it over, with a view to ascertain that there was nothing in its language or expressions contrary to the rules of the House. With regard to its contents, he should abstain from making any ob servations, and content himself with moving, " That the 'Counsel be now called to their Lordships' Bar, according to the prayer of the Petition." The motion was immediately put and tarried. After a short delay, Mr. Beouonaat, Mr. Dei- MAW, and Mr. WILLIAMS, presented themselves at the Bar of the House. . - Mr. BROUGHAM began by stating, that be had the honour to appear before their Lordships as Counsel for her Majesty the Queen. He understoodthat their Lordships had answered that part of her Majesty's 'Petition which prayed to be further heard by her Counsel, by saying they would hear her Counsel sow ; and however it might be better for the inte raft of his Illustrious Client that he should entreat a few hours delay—sensible how feeble were his powers and how inadequate he should be, with all the advantages of preparation, to discharge so im portant a duty, yet he had it in command from the Exalted Individual in whose behalf he appeared, to proceed, whatever-might he his personal difficulties, 'mid even at the risk of sacrificing some portion of her interests, rathei than by. a 'moment's procrastina tion give the slightest occasion for any one to suspect that she could wish for delay. Ile said this because he was most anxious to impress ul.on their Lordships, because, in fact, her Majesty felt it necessary they ,Mould be convinced, that nothing was further from her wishes than delay, in the vulgar sense of the ex pression. She had not the slightest desire to stop the progress of intleiry, because she was seasibleethist 1. inquiry must inevitably lead to honourable acqu ittal. Having said this much to guard her Majesty from :he possibility of being misunderstood, in the appli- - cation which lie was now about to make in her same, he should proceed to state, that her Majesty felt it necessary to her justification, in the inquiry about to be entered upon, that time should be allowed her tcr bring over a number of witnesses from the Conti nent ; and he was confident their Lordships would accede to this request, because all the principles of - justice must be set at utter defiance before their Lord ships could be advised to deny delay for such a pur pose. Her Majesty's Counsel at the bttr had a right to know that an inquiry was about to be made into leer condikt during her residence abroad, from a ;Message which had - been - sent to both Houses of Par liament on the subject, accompanied with a sealed bag, which was presumed to contain evidence deeply affecting the character of that Illustrious Personage. 'Now what the nature of that evidence was, and who were the tools that had scraped that evidence toge lher, was not for him at that time to inquires it was enough for him to know that, whether the contents ,'of that bag were pure; and worthy to be received before a British Tribunal, or whether they were in their nature vile, odious, and detestable, they could , only be meant to relate to something which nibs done, or falsely and scandalously alleged to have been done, by her Majesty, when sbe.was living abroad. Now.it was known that, in the period alluded to, her Majesty resided a leng, way from that House; that she had crossed the Alps and the Appennines, and had travelled to some of the most distant parts et Europe. From places so remote from that in - . Which thearibunal was sitting before which she hat to appear, it was impossible to receive a single *it 'sass, or even a letter, under five or six weeks. Be sides, if they were to wait, as the justice of the cate required,' till the number of witnesses 'could be col lected whose presence would be netess?ry before-they could proceed a single sttp = if 'those persons nave . . , .. . . . . • ter . - , , • 1 , 1' • s 0 i‘ jrp i tlAA . c.i... % T •, 1 '..t..A ' l :\ AY.O l O , ' ~ - -- • ... -- 6g.0-o.‘. . - .• " a-e.-4 44 .3 1 ...i . . ° , 1 . ~ il l . 1:i2 1 l'ltit P. '•E‘ EN -pr,' E. . „ . . lion. l -••••••••...m.p...............6 -4.* - . / i ! ~ ~i - , ••