Star. — London, England, 1812-02-08 00:00:00

- - believe it, was a sum of JE:;3oo,9i)i) ..ja, the account with stated :is part of the -. receipts ? It might h tve been so indeed, if Ireland bad been in a situation to answer the financial de mands made upon .!ter—but Ireland, it was well known, was unable to meet these demands, and conse quently the deficiency formed an additional bur den upon :his country. The sum in question, instead of beArg a resource, was therefore per contra a charge upon the fund. He stated this merely to shew that even the deficiency of three and an hair . trillions was not all that might be discovered from an accurate examination of these accounts. He bad no pleasure in laying this view of the matter before their Lord ships—but it was necessary that the real state of the finances thould be brought before Parliament, in stead of vague and imperfect results, that the remedy night be applied whi:e it was yet possible. These accounts sheaved how the increasing expence of the desperate scheme s o f Mi n i sters felt with accumulated weight upon th" diminishing resources of the coun try. His Lordship, alter adverting to the alarming • increase of toe fuLded and unfunded debt, concluded by obs. rving, that the real financial situation of the country should be fully known, and truly stated, that however they might lament the cause of these diffi culties, they might meet them with all the energy of knowleige and truth. lord HA It ROWBY asked, whether, as the No ble Lord had made no motion, it was part of his plan that he sh uid not reply. (No, no, from Lord Grenville.) He had then to observe, that the con clusions drawn from these papers alone might be very erroneous. N,-thing could be more unfair than to f rm estunatt:s of the res urces of thecountry from a comparison of two xears. They must take the ave rage of a great many years—and the fact was, that the produce of the former period alluded to, was far greater ,han that of any preceding year. Tire pro. once of the last quartets in the latter period, had be sides not yet been completed. As to the sum in the account with Ireland, Le admitted that it was a charge up.n the hind. The tact was, that the ex pence at which the war had been carried en since 180, sea, w. nderfullv small, considering the mag . nitude itt the contest. 'From - the lin.r of policy adopted by the enemy, it was natural, that there should be a deticiel.cy in the Curt ms, the produce of which must be so materially affected by the decrease of foreign commerce--but in other respects, with the exception of that article of Excise ttat depended upon fo reign spirits, there was every appearance of increased resources. '1 he inere .se of internal consumption marked the ' , regressive advance of afauence. lie should be petfectiy ready, at any time, to enter upon a minme diseussron of this subject. Loid LAUDERDALE &fended the accuracy of his Noble I mend (Grenvi;le's) statement, and ob. served, that it at all erroneous, it was in rather un derstating the matter. He had a high opinion of the talents or his Noble Ft iend, and the Noble Lord op posi.e ; and be hoped they were aware, that to un derstand this subject correctly, much study and se vere labour was necessary. he had no hesitation in saying, that our financial situation required the prompt interference of Parliament, and the estab lishn:ent of a most rigid system. After adverting LI the distreses of our commercial and manutacturing interests, he observed, that he by no means w;theet to excite despair—but an overstatemeat of our tivan. cial resources might be attended with the worst effects. HOU.-EIIOLD BILL. The Earl of LIVERPOOL °buried, that in rising to move the third reading of the Household Bill, it would probably be easier for himself, and more satisfactory to their Lordships, if he should state the grounds out of which not only this, but the two other Bills (the Household Offices and Regency Expences Bills) beloie the kicuse grew, as they alt f rmed part of the same systi.m. In calling the at tention of the Hou , e last Session to the measure thin proposed on account of his Majesty's illness, it would be rem , mered they had legislated with a view only to a temporati y evil. In that arrangement their Lord-, ships had thilight proper to iirpose ctriain restric- -- tLeals on the Regtm, which were to cease s-on after the present miming of Parliament ; leaving it to the _Legislature in this &ssion to determine, according to circumstacc. s, wiiat est.,blishmtnt it might be fitting to provide Ix his Majesty and the Prince. At the commencement of the Session, one of their first acts' had been to appoint a Committee to examine into the state cf his Majesty's health. Whatever might be the shades of ditlerence in the opinions of individuals on this point, the general result certainly was, that nothing remarried but to consider what establishment -it would be proper to maintain about his Majesty's person with a due regard t o hi s coni t ort an d cligt.ity —and , how the Civil List should be applied to sup pert the expences of the Executive Goveinment.— 1 The first principle which must form the basis of any proceeding on this subject; and that which they were bound to bear in mind, was the pos,ibility that his Majesty might recover. Looking at this as possible, they were bound to secure to his Majesty, in ease of his recovery, the means cf resuming his station with every facility. Having done that, they were then to consider how far the Civil List should he - placed at the disposal of the Prince Regent. Setting out on • that pi inciple, they would recoilect, that at the corn menet merit of his Majesty's reign, the Civil List had been given him to defray the expences of supporting 'his dignity, and partly those necessary in the admi nistration of his Government. In considering, then, how the Civil List should be applied, they would re member the view with which it had been originally granted. It was fitting that the portion which had been granted tor the expences of Government should accompany the executive administration. But, in the first place, they must take out of it what was neces sary for the comfort of his Majesty in his present situation. This must be regarded -as the lien, if he might use the expression, upon the Civil List. What then, was a suitable establishment for the Sovereign ? In this view of the subject, he should not do justice to the feelings of their Lordships, and of the people of this country, f'e should not do what was becoming towards his Sovereign, if he did not 'remember the circumstances under which his Majesty had filled his high office, as well as the calamity with which he was at present visited. To pay all due regard, not only ) to the cot-Mous, Ira to the dignity and'feelings of the King, was equally necessary in regard to their own justice, character,. and honour, - In looting at this question, it must always be borne in Mind, that they I were arpointing an establishment ) not only for a sick Iman, but for a sick King—th a t t h e y were not on l y to provide for the comfort of the man, but for the !dignity of the Sovereign. Their Lordships would, , he repeated, recollect, th a t i t was poss ibl e hi s M a- I ije-ty might recover ; and they ought likewise to re-I ' fleet, that several stages might intervene between l the period of sickness and that of corivalescence.— Another view of the case was, that his Majesty might recover to a certain degree, and remain for a long time in a middle .state..; in which, though in. capable of rcsitm'ng the Government, he might de. rive comfort and satisfaction from finding himself treated in a manner suited to the dignity of his sta tion. In any arrangement, this, therefore, mist be considered ; and it must also be a very desirable ob ject that his Majesty's family should be enabled to remait% about him. He (Lord Liverpool) was satis fied that the house would not think €109,000 o omuch for the maintenance of his Majesty's Household.— This was, however,-to be understand as independent l of R 60,000 for the Privy Purse, which was already heavily burthened with charitable annuities and other donations. He (Lord Liverpool) should now mention the arrangements for the Prince Regent. --Yet he must beg leave to mention previously, that as some of the Officers in attendance upon the Royal state had certain functions connected with the throne, whoever might hold it, it was expedient that the Officer left in superintendance of the Household should be that one the least connected with the public offices of Royalty. Some Grooms and Eque ries would also be properly added. As the Prince Regent assumed the royal office only until the reco very of the King, it was not to be easily supposed that their Lordships would allow the Prince's rights to be injured by this temporary assumption. Their Lordships would observe, that it was proposed to contribute £30,000 of the Prince's revenue to the Civil List. In addition to the stet( ment already given, about £lO,OOO was proposed to be given to the Queen for her increased annual expenditure. 'llw great rule which regulated all these provisions, was the consideration of the King's future resumption of authority. The account would then stand thus : There would be deducted from the Civil List RlOO,OOO ; 'from the separate revenues of the Prince, £30,000 were to be given, and €70,000 were to be provided for by the Bill. In forming this estimate, it was necessary to consider the extent of his Ma iesty'e family, and how much this must add to the expence. He felt he should not discharge his duty without referring to the excesses of the Civil List.— Whatever might be thought on the subject, he must say, he did not consider it a time for a new arrange. ment of the Civil List ; but he must declare that the estimate was unequal to the expence. It was only necessary tolook to the sum voted for it five years ago, and look to the rise of private property since, to see how inadequate it must be. In looking over the items cf excess in the Civil List, they would be seen under the least suspicious of all possible h, ads—the expc nces of Foreign Embassies and Missions, in which is was to be expected that no estimate could fairly ascertain the expence. The other heads were vouched by the tradesmen's bills. It was obvious, that from whatever cause, ten or £20,000 a year would not do as much now as fifty years ago. If no application had been made to Parliament on those excesses, it Was beca.usa they were met by another fund ; and while that fund was suffered to remain at his Ma jesty's disposal, and was found sufficient, no applica tion would be made. A precise, specific, unimprov_ able income was given to the Crown; and while all other things rose, it was expedient that it too should have its addition. The Prince Regent had, in the last Session, very honourably refused any addition to his ( income ; but that was merely in the idea of a tem porary authority. The whole arrangement was now lb. fore the House. He siould now say no more.- 1 He intreated their Lordships n t to suffer any extra ne.oussonsiderations to mingle at present in the ques tion, but to look upon it tidy in reference to the huithen which it might ba necessary to impose, and the measure of Royal dignity which it was expedient . .0 sustain. Lord GRENVILLE had many objections to the In-nt and to the principle , f the Bill ; but as their Loidships mig!A be diAuclined to enter largely into these matters, he should rest, iot himself to a few pro minent p lilts. He admitted that the present circum stances differed from tho.e of his Majesty's first ill ness, or that in 1811. In the first, hopes, fortunately well founded, were entertained of recovery ; in the secend, hores, and would to GOD they had been equally well founded, were entertained. There was , no doubt that considerable difficulty lay in any view of arrangement which might be proposed.— There was absnl'itely no precedent in either of the former cases. The present was almost entirely new. But it was to be considered, that as our hopes of re covery had been disappointed, our fears of continued malady might be equally unfounded, and therefore no provi , ion should be made without adverting to this. He felt the difficulty of all this. He could more easily set up a standard and measure in his own mind for either of the former cases, than in the pre sent, which was made up of temporary and perma nent considerations. There was one material objec tion in the present arrangement,—the provisions seemed extremely involved (Hear.) As to the ex cesses cf the Civil List, he was one of those who could never think public difficulties removed by being kept out of sight ; and he thought that if defi ciencies existed, the wisest way was to bring them plainly before Parliament. As to another point of the Noble Lord's (Liverpool) speech, there could be no hesitation. There could be but one opinion as to the necessity of providing, nut merely for sickness, but for a sick King ; every comfort should be added ro every dignity that his state could require. He should go a step farther, and say, that the question of whether the sum allotted for this was too much or too little, was one which he could not entertain.—lt revolted his feelings. But as to the mode of arrang ing all this, he must look to the principles of our an cestors. He had often regretted, that the Civil List united two things so distinct, as the support of the Household, and the expences of Government. (Hear, hear, from the Opposition.) Ho had often lamented it, and thought, that if the matter came to be re, considered, a better way might be adopted. But that was at present out of the question. The Ci vil List was g ra n t e d to t h e Ki ng f or lif e ; and a Icontract made with the King when he was able to give consent, was not now to be violated. The Which had otigiuolly mingled those apparent te tlemao, though an early opp oreno had not at host .I*.otl two objects in the Civil List, was the unwilling- 1 appeared against it—it was carried o nan o n „ usly ness of our ancestors to place a distinct and ungra- went through tho Committees until jected to by t h at cious limit on the necessary expenses of the House- Right Hon. Memhsr, and would h ave passed the: hold. In conformity to that principle, lie, instead I House but for a dissolutio n cf Pa:lie/n eut . i ts d - of asking abeut the particular Household erpences , / next Parliament, ( March, 1807) hetod again brought, should ask, what might be the necesssity of making so the measure forward, and thenutevic b e il o L f that large , large au increase to the general fund ? This was ccr- tleman had not been raised against it. I t pe ase ,' tainly better than dividing it into pot tons. When he through the House as a perpet ua l bill, but was up. ( Lord Glenville) came into administration, he under- fortunately rejected in the Lords. Th e House 1441 s:ocol that there was an excess of the Civil List ; but then addressed the Throne to g r ant no o ffi ce i n while a fund existed capable of def ra yin g it, he did sion during the vacation. Th e next Session i t sos not choose to apnly to Parliament. He hoped he brought forward ogairras a per pe tua l and his friends were even entitled to some commit- , thrown out in the Lords ; and they. it was th at tM dation for not applying to the country on the subject, House, though the measure was evidently a Geo., while the funds were disposable. He had been anxi- rite, yet to prevent disputes and disturbances betwe r i ous to know the real state of the excesses : and an ex. the ta o branches of the Legislateare, ga te o way, apd pet-intent had been made by a new system of account agreed to make it a temporary measure ; not abar. to ascertain it. The result of the expet iment might atoning, however, the:r intention to ni; d it perp eto o have been to authorize an application to Par:i amens.. nor the hope that the other House, at som e i n;ore re ! At present, he did not see any ground for an average riod, might be induced to g i ve t h e i r consent. Why, excess, demanding such an increase as th a t called for. then, was it assumed, be cause t h e L ords had once He, however, deprecated any view of th e su bject th at I rejected it, that they would always reject it ? Wa y went to examine whether the sum was too much cr I mightthey not be convinced hy subseq uentreasnaiegaa too little for the personal expenditure. The Noble the subject? Why might they not seethatmaeyof their Lord (Liverpool) had said, it WAS impossible to first pi ejtolices were ill-fonnied? It oasashOei y a cethit think of diveving the Prince of any right which he House to give way as for the House c.f Commo ns; had possessed before ; and yet, in the face of his own and it was to be hoped that their pertinacious resin. declaration, he came proposing to take a large polo j ance would sub&de. The Bill was brought Inwa r d tion of his property, and add it to the Civil List. He i at an eat ly period of the Session, so that there Imo had done what had never been attempted before; and fear of its being lost be a dissolution of Parlinin o i t; by allotting a share for the support of the Royal Per- and if it failed, they might hare recourse to their no son, and a share for the Royal dignity, had actually medy of lost SessOwo and make it temporary. H e ", portioned out the Civil List. He (Lord Grenville) not a friend to temporary me.oures ; bin thotoh • agreed that the care of the King's pe rson s ho u ld b e fl uctuat i ng c o n di t i on o f h uman affairs seemed ti to O. committed to the tried affection of the Queen, and your them, yet such was not the state of our Stattte that she ought to have the superintendence of the per. Book ; and the present was especially a measure sons connected with h er H ouse h o ld. Ministers, in which might to be perm tent. If the offices is their system of portioning, had even divided the question we:e beneficial to the State, surely Kingly state. They Lad given a part to the King, bestowing them in revers:on was ti:e Way to a, and a part to the Prince Regent: but the Prince ac- stroy that benefit, as it must put them frequently in tually enjoyed authority and state only as in b e h a lf t h e h a nds o f i nc ompe tent p ersons — o f ten i n the „ ales of the King. We were tried by the King's laws, of children ; so that in a short time effiLient offices and guarded by the King's fleets and armies.. But would be converted into sinecures, at d titer po em; the principal point, perhaps, was, that no one was re- f must be faund to do the required duties. As tot e sponsible 1 r the expandituie of the Household money. measure trenching upon the prerogotive, he insisted Ot the three great Officers of State, but one, the that it would not produce such eff:ct, but would least Lord Chamberlain, was left; but neither he nor the to a more fair exercise of it. It was the granting to Lord Steward was responsible to the I ord Treasurer. Offices in Reversion which encumbered the preroga. 'He could not help thinking this want of responsibility tive. This Bill, on the contrary, would nut only not a serious objection to the plan. curtail it, but put it in a state of greater strengoiand Lord HA RROWBY made some remarks upon activity. It was an anomaly that it c , uld not bens. the preceding speech, and ended by saving that an certained how fir offices might be granted in this account of all expenses was to be regularly given in. manner, nor what ought to be the proceedings, dos e Lord GRENVILLE repeated his assertion, that Crown should choose to give in reversion °dices never no one of the three great officers. was technically obli- before so granted. The same might be said with ged to give in an account. Possibly, by the tenour respect to the grant of Reversionary Pensions. There of the Bills, the Court of Exchequer might be audio. was no rule, that he Wes aware of, in the Comma rized to demand it ; but it was undouutedly a defi. or Statute Law to prevent such donations. It sae ciency that no clause to that effect was inserted. therefore, the duty of that House to inte.fert ; Mr if Lord LIVERPOOL said, that the power of the the Bill was not passed, it would be thuug!tt that Court of Exchequer in the case was so well known, reversions were good, and that pensions should be that it was thought quite unnecessary to introduce granted fur more than one life. As to the economy any new clause on the subject. of the measure, he had never held it out to tLe coos. The Bill was then read a third time and passed.— try as capable of producing much good that way,bet . Adjourned. rather as a measure to prevent carelessoess in the -- granting of offices and the multiplication of sinecures. HOUSE OF COMMONS. At tile same time, he could not consent to speak cf Lord OSSULSION presented a petition fur a new Theatre the economical objects of the Bill in so shio ung a fur London and Westminster. manner as the last Speaker. Tomigh this messes, ohe Royal Assent was given by commission to the two Ex- as might also be said of the Abolition of Sinecwes, cheque! Bills, one for raising .eiu,Soo,ooo, the other for raising .C 1,500,000, and to the Dist.dation Prohibition Act, and the Irish was not calculated to produce any great sating ts Suspension Intercourse Act. the country, yet some good might be effectel ; sad The Houle went lulu a Committee on the Navy Stores in Ire- at any rate it became that House to recoeuise the land Frtibexakmept Bill. Report ordered to be received on principle, that economy was higoly and inisispeembly Monday. Mr MANNING brought in a Bill for prolonging the time for useful to a State —(hear, hear.) He busted, dmr the completion of the London Ducks. fore, that the House would accede to the Yd Pie Previous to going into a Committee on the Lords' Act Am, nd- of the Bill. meat Bill, Mr. RENRICK wished to enlarge the Ball, and Lord The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER FOLKES I ONE consented, provided nothing should be intro- the appealed to the Right Hon. Gentleman and us timed of a nature to cr ea t e opposit i on. The SPEAKER hint rag that the usage of the House was with House, that ever stooe this bill bad been first dims Lord Folk stone, out in the Lords, he had uniiorn.ly mem; vied kiss Mr. Iie.NRICK agreed to withdraw his motion, In case of op- matter which he Considered av of very little ism position. 'I he House then w ent i nto a Commis tee: after whi c h th e Re- Lance, tight r as a mea s ure o f econom y, or as iteeseg port was received, read, and rsferred to Oats day week. It WAS the prerogative of the Crown. He could not, hoe. ordered to fie printed. ever, avoid raying now, that the proceedings tie dis The last India Loan Alteration Bill was read a first time, and point had on ail occasions been highly colouted. He ordered to be read a second on Monday next. i ow ualerstof.d from his lionourable Fsiend (Mr. The Committee of Sup, ly, and the Committe of Ways and Means, were postponed till Monday n, xt. Banks), that it is as not looked to as a n.easure ri On the motion of Mr. W. POLE, the Reports of the coin- economy ; and that, whatever the pawns La t h e missioners of Enquiry in Ireland, which were received last Fri- Crown might be, it would nut be any injury to the day, were oat ere.l to be pa.nted. public on toe store of prerogative. It was evident the Aar. CALCRAF I* moved for the Returns of the Regular Army and Militia, exclus i v e o f f ore i gn corps, distinguishing the subject had been exaggerated ; and it the Lill elf numbers at home and abroad. carried, the power of the Crown would, in the count Ns°, tor the Returns of the Recruits raised in the ordinary of a century, be as great as it was beim& He bed mode, up to June, Ist t. Also, fur the Returns o f t h e Casualties, Desertions, Ste. till June, 1811, therefore thought it a m easure t h at i t was moaner* while to oppose ; bu t lie had always said, that it gm Mr. EDEN postponed h!s notice on the Civil List Expenditure evident horn its being repeatedly thrown out in dit till Monday mit. Lords, it would be an useless business, unless It OFFICES IN REVERSION BILL. proved to be of some mate, ial advantage in pinto . On the question, that the Bill be read a second economy ; and it would be better it should not be time, persisted in, as it might be the means of interrupting Mr. W. DUNDAS stated, that four years ago he the harmony between the two Houses, which, when had stood solely in opposition to this Bill, and still I the object was of slight consequence, ought studiciatil" found himself compelled to oppose it. This, lie could Ito be avoioed. If the object weir of real importances assure the House, he did from conviction. He con- I then, indeed, as had ueen will observed. by Mo ceived that the Hon. Member (Mr. Bankes), in pro I Bankes, it might be desirable to try it the Pert!" 4l7 posing a Bill so different from the one which was on 1 which appeared in another place might not la time the point of expiration, should not have been content I , be overcome : but if it Was not of that impeetr acti with saying merely, that such Bill was expiring, but it then became only pertuoscity against pee 6lllol l_ l. l should have given some additional reasons for his new -and that met m might, with equal propriety. be measure. It was a most fallacious argument, and to that House as to the her. His Hoseatebil shewed much sanguine credulity in him who held it, Friend had allowed it was not an object of easielef• to suppose that by the saving of a few offices, any nor of any great consequence as tenoing to a dais' relief could be afforded to the country ; such reduc. tion of the power of the Cro4:n ; and he (Mr. tion would not make the difference of a feather in the vii) thought therefore, that in order to preserve scale. The abuses in Ireland had been urged ; but snotty between the two Houses, it would be bettor ° he thought them no argument for tying up the hands oppose the second reading of the bill. of the Crown, though they were a reason for abtidg- Mr. BANKES said, that according to the.R o r ing ohe power of the Viceroy. As to Scotland, there of the Finance Committee, there were many were but two reversions in that country—one holden i which it was thought necessary to be abolishedl" by Mr. Lovell, the other by himself. He concluded as such, the subject would soon come under theta' by observing, that the prerogative of the Crown was templation of the House. part of the light of the people, and should be sup- The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUEI ported ; and that there was little chance of the said, that while there was any proceeuiug berwe success of this measure in another place, unless it House, which went to the actual abolishing otiOPlac e , were presented in some other shape. in particular, he should not, in the situation he We i _ Mr. BANKES d es i re d t h at t h e cler k m i ght read have thought.of opposing it and that was the 0 4 1 part of the ori g i na l reso l ut i on of the House on this explanation he deemed it ne cessary to give. subject.—lt was read. Lord A. HAMILTON pointed out certain (Arica.' Mr. BANKES then stated, that it was not surpri- the abolition naot measurewlch of wa p s u p b ro li po c sed eco , n a o n ai d y w . hielt nig oa r t sing that his own memory this business sh ou ld be the pre more accurate than t h at o f t h e Ri g h t H on. Gentleman. sent situation of the country rendered it iseasein On the first introduction of that bill, it had been highly that nut a farthing should be uselessly expende d. favoured by the House, and their opi n i on h a d Si r SAMUEL ROMILLY said, there had big. been placed on their journitls, The Right Hon. Gen, nothing stated by the Chancellor of the Excheq.) a v $ 1 al vi rl J I t 1