Star. — London, England, 1820-05-10 00:00:00

I, cdle-t Magistrate : and it was a conduct for tvhich he hid never been accused by the lovers of their coun try—Wear, hear). In •conclusion,. the Honourable Centieman again expressed that he saw no ground whatever for acceding to the present motion. Mr. HOBHOUSE conceived it necessary to ex plain the grounds on Which he should think it his duty to give his vote for a proposition represented by the last Honourable speaker as SO absurd. In , intr, this, he felt that lie needed that indulgence which the House was in the habit' of conceding to young .!enthers. He was aware that in some re spects he stood in a peculiar situation, and the dith, culties under which he laboured were increased by his attempting to answer a Gentleman of the charac ter and experience of the Honourable Member who )tad just sat down—Vicar, hear). • That Honourable -Member was as well acquainted with the forms of the House, as the Public were with the dignity of character. He had said that the House could not into the proposed inquiry because there was no iLrecedent. But it appeared to him, that unless there should be something peculiarly distorted in his man ner of viewing it, this subject was one which Parlia ment ought to take into consideration. They had been told not to meddle with the criminal jurisdic tion of the country, but there were many occasions when judicial subjects had been inquired into by that Howe. The Honourable Member had stated, that the law and the Constitution prevented it from such an exercise of its powers by refusing it the right of imposing an oath; but in 'how many cases had not the House judicially interfered without oaths, and even without inquiry? Had it never inflicted punish resent on individuals without any investigation of their case? What the worthy Alderman asked was, not that such punishment should be inflicted, but that whilst the House inquired into the machinations against Ministers, it should not refuse to inquire into the machinations against the people—(Hear, hror).— The worthy Alderman had said, that when he had applied to the Secretary of State, an answer had been returned, discouraging further investigation. lie did not see why, on these documents, the House should say there should be no inquiry whatever. When the Ministers spoke on former occasions of plots. against themselves and the Government, it had.been imme dtr conceded that investigation was necessary. WV, when the conspiracies seemed directed against fie People, should not the same necessity be found to exist? The Honourable Member had said, that the Muse could take no decided step on the subject; but the proceeding recommended was not half so sum mary as that on which the. House had acted on ano thtv occacicm. Here was a charge in which the si:flny of the House of . Commons was concerned, wiiist in the other case there had been only some tr.;ng written and printed about the House! The fr.:t time he had taken.his seat in Parliament, he had heard it said, that the people must be reduced. He 6:aught, or. the contrary, that the House should shew that it felt sympathy for the distresses, and even the suspicions of the people: for certainly there were izspicions that Edwards had been employed to fo mnt the late plot. He did not say that Govern ment was guilty ; neither did he say that it was in nocent; inquir y alone could decide the question.— :,e Honourable Gentleman had appealed to ancient times, and to an ancient Republic, and he (Mr. Hob /muse) did not call this a Monarc hy,i but, as it had been termed by James IL a Commonwealth. But 'what was the result of that appeal ? It did not ap pear by history that either Fulvia or the Allobroges had been employed by Cicero to watch the plot. And the opinion of persons in ancient times against the employment of Spies, was by no means doubtful.— Suetonius, in his Lives of the Roman Emperors, reckoned " Delatores inter adveraz tempera," and added, that Titus had not followed thesexample of those who had come before him, bat had ordered all informers and spies to be scourged in the public markets, and banished to desert islands. He believed that Constantine punished them with death. Caligula was wont to say that he had no ears for informers ; aad Domi:ian, before he had adopted that injurious system, declared that " Princips qni Deldures non insiigat." He had paid some attention to this subject in consequence of having found on a 'former night, that the defence of spies had not pro- ceeded from these who employed them, but from a Learned Member who had hitherto rendered many important services to the cause of Liberty.— Bis researches bad perfectly satisfied him, that spies were viewed in the same light in all ages. All he had found in Machiarel on the subject was, that Go vernors must employ troops as well as men. Montes quieu said, that even in a monarchy spies should not employed, and that-- , s L'infamie du nom montre Giffamie de /a chose." Those who maintained that they might be used under a good Government, had only to alter the wo r d goo d into bad, and their posi tion would be correct. It was said that spies might be useful, if they were not suffered to become insti gators, but he did not see how that was practicable. A spy lived on the .fruits of his ingenuity ; if, there fore, be wished to be well paid, it was scarcely pos sible that he should not contrive some plot. Be sides, he could learn nothing of those that might be carried on, without appearing to go hand and heart in the scheme. Nay, it was probable that he would speak even more violently than the rest, because he was not afraid of being detected. Upon all these grounds, he trusted that the House would conde scend to entertain the motion, and shew that the Commons participated in the feelings of the country. Mr. BUTTERWORTH said, that he had seen one of these men who had been seduced into the late plot, not by Edwards, but by his own neighbour, and chiefly because he was in the habit of reading sedi ous publications—( Hear, hear).—After this con sion had been made, he (Mr. Butterworth) wished lave it repeated before a Magistritte, but the man been so terrified by the party with which he had .n connected, that he had begged not to be pro ved in public. He (Mr. Butter worth) had sent for i this evening, on account of the present motion, had asked him if he knew anything of Edwards? had replied, that he knew nothing of him ; but since the late executions, one of the parties con ned in the plot had told him, that Edwards had a present at one of their early meetings,but never hear).--He had asked him, too, whe he thought that the chief conspirators had been wn and led into the plot ? Hisinswer had been, 'hy, Sir, do you suppose they were children!— . 1 were men of spockunderstandii , and wanted no one to exci!e them, for they were desperate in the business"—(Hear, hear).—He (Mr. Butterworth) was really shocked to see a motion of the kind as the present brought forward:—(Hear, hear).—lt was of a piece with the questions put to Thistlewood at the • moment of his execution—questions utterly devoid of common feeling—( !fear, hear).—He believed That the speeches on this occasion would do great mischief ; similar ones had powerfully contributed to produce the late disturbances, and he should not himself have spoken, but in common justice to the Government of the country—(Hear, hear). Mr. HUME defended his Hon. Friend the worthy Alderman, from the blame cast upon him for having endeavoured to ascertain the truth at the moment when an unfortunate man was preparing to appear before his . thigaroa, by questions which could not wound his feelings. He considered that the solitary instance adduced by the last Hon. Member, of a man who knew nothing of Edwards, was no answer to the thirty arguments and thirty depositions which . had been proJuced—(Near, hear). Mr. W. WYNN declared, that during the number of years he had been in that House, he never recol lected any measure having been brought forward on such extraordinary grounds as the present. If the use of spies was entirely done away, it would be im possible ever to defeat any conspiracy. There was not a shadow of argument to justify the present motion, and therefore he should oppose it. Mr. DENMAN considered that to be a most ex traordinary doctrine which treated with indulgence and sympathy the most,fiegraded and noxious mate rials of which the human race was composed ; and he looked upon such doctrines as sapping all the foundations on which social intercourse and happi ness rested. There was nothing very novel in the present motion ; for some feiv years ago, in conse quence of the disfurbances in the North of England, similar motions were made ; and it was not consi dered irregular to call for the appointments of Com mittees to inquire into those disturbances, although no legislative proceedings afterwards, took place.— Such Committees were moved for after the distorts ances of Derby and Manchester ; Sir Samuel ito milly then voted in favour of them, but they were not agreed to. The object of the present motion was to see whether the proceedings had been properly pursued in the cases of the persons lately convicted of Treason. He would not go so far as to say, that on particular occasions, spies ought to be employed. In justification of that principle, the case of Cataline's conspiracy had been - referred to ; but the cases were quite different; hem a set of unfortunate men had been instigated to commit ctimes ; but in the case of the Roman conspiracy,the Consul, when he heard of the danger which threatened the State, was bound in duty to send a spy for the purpose of knowing what the conspirators were doing—(Hear. hear). — But the question was, w ho did burnish the late con spirators with money ? Who was it that beset Thistle wobd, and made him an active instrument for his own destruction? He would ask if this was a proper employment fur a spy ; or was it to be a manufactory for crime? He was far from intending to impute to the Ministers that they would authorise a spy to act in this manner—(Hear). But the moment they em ployed a spy, they took on themselves a most awful responsibility. and assured to themselves the cer tainty of spreading mischief which it was their du:y to prevent. He contended, that his Honourable Friend (Alderman Wood) had acted very properly in putting the questions which he had put to Thistle wood, on the morning of his execution, because it was necessary to ascertain how far Edwards had in stigated him in carrying on his plot. It would have been most important for the prisoners if that man had been called as a witness, because then they would have had the benefit of his cross-examination, through their Counsel. His life and character might then be inquired into, and disclesures might take place which would have a powerful effect, if not in causing the acquittal of the accused, at least of in fluencing the Crown to extend mercy towards them. Then, in the want of such information as might thus have been obtained, the present inquiry was called for. If it should appear that there had been tampering with infamous characters, and that - Ministers had overstepped the fair line of gaining information, there could not be a fitter object of jealous inquiry. This was not the first occasion in which complaints had been made against the employment of infatnnus spies. On the trial of Watson and others, the spy" Gashes appeared to have been the first person en gaged in carrying on the plot, and then to have turned informer—(A cry of No, no ! from the Minis terial side of the House). Again he would say, that the wretched men who were tried at Derby had been led into the acts they committed by the spy Oliver— (;lear, hear).—Of this he had not the smallest doubt. - He told the unhappy victims of his artifice that the people were in a state of insurrection throughout most parts of the country, and they might very soon expect many thousands to join their standard. He thus encouraged, impelled, and animated the un happy persons to those acts which involved them in rain. He contended, that the Counsel for. the pri 'soneis' had a right to have the benefit of the cross examination of Edwards on the late trials ; and he was sure the Counsel for the prisoners had not the smallest doubt of Edwards having actively instigated them to commit acts of treason. He contended that the whole of this Spy System was inconsistent with a good government, and destructive of all public and private morality. If spies were to be employed by the Ministers of. Government, they would be employed by the various Public Offices.- The Bank employed spies, for they sent persons to seduce men into the commission of climes--(Cries of No, no!). He had opportunities of knowing the fact at trials in this country. With a strong feeling that the Spy System was carried to an extent which should never have been allowed, he would, if the worthy Alderman pressed the House to a division, rote with him. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL maintained, that there was not a tittle of evidence to shew that Ed wards had been employed by the Government; but Government had received his information, which en abled them to defeat one of the most horrible plots that ever was known in this country. What occa sion was there, he would ask, to call Edwards as a witness, when there was a sufficiency of other wit nesses to establish the guilt of the prisoners? Was it not known, that when Monument anckThistlewood were proceeding to the Treasury to be examined, the latter spoke to Monument, old desired him to tell . . . . the Council, that a Min of the name of Edwards had brought him to his misfortunes; and when Monu ment told him he never heard of Edwards, Thistle ,wood replied....e , Never mind that; do you say as I tell yOu, and I will describe him"—.(Hear, hear!) — The worthy Alderman had stated', that Edwards was the oily man that had brought the parties into the plot; but the evidence of Monument, ilyden, and others clearly proved that this was not the fact ; but that Thistlewood, Brunt, and Wilson, were the se ducers, who brought others into the plot. So far from Edwards having any oratorical powei s, he never addressed any persons in his life, nor did one of the witnesses state that he had ever proposed any plan. This fact was confirmed by Brunt himself, after hi, conviction, and just before he received sentence; for he and Ings acknowledged that the assassination of Ministers was their object, and they gloried in it!— But then he said that he ought not to }Ave been con victed of Treason for that. Ile said he was sorry lie had not murdered Lord Castlereagh and Lord Sidmouth. Then how could the wo r thy Alderman say that Edwards had instigated him ? Ani did not Thistlewood make a similar declaration of his wish and intention to murder the Ministers ? That con spirator had made an address, in hich, from its composition, he had been evidently assisted, of which the following was a passage: " A few hours hence and I shall be no more : hut the nightly , . breeze which will whistle over the silent grave that shall protect me from its keenness, will bear to your restless pillow the me mory of one who lived but for his country, and died when liberty and justice had been driven from its confines by a set of villains. For life, as it respects myself, I care not; but, while yet I may. I would rescue my memory from the calumny which I donlit not will be industriously heaped upon it, when it will be no longer in my power to protect it. I would explai • the motives ' which induced sae to conspire against the Ministers of his Ma jesty, and I would contrast them with those which these very Ministers have acted upon in leading me to my ruin !" —And this was the man, who was said to have bet:lo instigated by Edwards ! He could not, therefore, lelp complaining of the assumption of the worthy Alderman. How, he asked, could the worthy Al -derman assert that Edwards had supplied the parties with abundance of money, when it appeared in evi dence, that all the money among the parties on one occasion was the sum of six shillings in silver in the possession of Thistlewood, and a one pound note in the possession of Brunt. He must, then, join in the censures thrown out against the worthy Alderman for the part he had taken in putting such questions as he had done to Thistiewood—(Hear, /war!) — There had been instances of persons. speaking to cul prits just before their execution, for the purpose of drawing confessions from them, or exhorting them to the observance of their religious duties ; and these things were done with thrrist benevolent motives. But the present was the first time he had ever heard of a person going with a packet of questions, and putting them to a condemned culprit just before his execution, for the purpose of picking up information from him relative to others—(/fear, hear, hear ! ) This was the first time he heard of ,such a thing, and . he hoped it would . be the • last. (Here the Learned Gentleman read from a paper the questions which had been put by Mr. Alderman Wood to Thistlewood, on the morning of his execution). He then asked.whether the worthy Alderman had not had a communication, Within thelast'twenty-four hours, with Preston ?—(Hear, hear).- Believing that many persons had been in the plot who were not yet in custody, it would have been the duty of the worthy Alderman, as a Magistrate, to havetriedi by his ques tions, to find out who those parties 'Were, instead of seeking for information which was to be made the ground of a charge against Ministers. But it was fortunate for the ends of justice, that Thistlewood did not lend himself to the worthy Alderrnan'S' views ; but that he gave to one question, an answer :which seemed to defeat them; for when asked, what money Edwards had given him ? he answereit—not much. It, therefore, there could be any doubt of the fact, the answer of Thistlewood proved they had not supplied them with money. But the conspirators had money ; and it was well known who supplied them with it.— Here he must observe, that there were no swords found on the conspirators, and therefore nothing could be more erroneous than to say that Edwards had sup plied them with new swords. And from whom did the worthy Alderman receive this information?— Why, from men who were engaged 'in the views of the conspirators--who were deeply implicated in the plot—(Hear, hear).—lt was proved by Monument, : that the design of throwing all the odium on Ed wards, originated with Thistlewood : and the House would now see how that suggestion had been follow ed up. The intent of all this was to throw a slur on the evidence by which the conspirators were con victed, and to hold out a suspicion that Government was instrumental in urging the culprits to the acts 'they had committed. it had been said, thwt Castles was a Government spy ; but that was not the fact. He never had been a Government spy : for after be. ing implicated in the plot, he gave information to Government. Nor-was Oliver the instigator of the traitors at Derby, for he never had been among them ; and he never saw Brandreth in his life. Sir FRANCIS BURDETT said he had heard no speech which convinced him so much of the neces sity of agreeing to the motion as that of the Learned Gentleman. What was there to prevent the House from going into the inquiry ? It was contrary to the fact, that the culprits had declared they had not been instigated by Edwards; for, on the contrary, they declared lie had been the contriver and promo. ter of the conspiracy. The censures thrown out against the worthy Alderman by the Attorney-Gene- ral and the Honourable Member for Dover, wa. most unfair, most untrue, and would tend to prevent men from doing their duty in that House. For his part, he maintained that the worthy Alderman de- . served the thanks of the Public for the line of con duct pursued by him. It was true the conspirators I did confess their guilt ; and if they had not done so. he should have considered the evidence altogether unworthy of belief—(Laughter an the Ministeria: Benches , ). With respect to spies, he must °peal) protest against the employment of such persons.— lc was said, however, to be the unhappy condition of Ministers, that they were obliged to them— but he agreed with the legal Maxim in this as In other cases—" Qui facet per alum, Acit.per se In ancienCtitnes.spies were never made use of e x cept under the most tyrannical and s pdious governments. The existence of them now, skewed that *there was something wrong in the Government, and that there avas a general spirit of discontent throttghout the . . • . . . cotmtry. It was a subject of dissatisfact on eve where, that such infamous persons were employed; for people could not help thinking, that they actually led others into the commission of crime. There wai one thing that made A deep impression on the public mind, and that was 001 the Government Were ac. quainted with the conspiracy long before the time when a man delivered a letter to Lord Harrowby ; and he must on that account say, it was highly cul pable in Ministers to go on conniving at the conspi racy, and allowing die unhappy men to go on to their ruin, while the man who male victims of them was deriving a profit from his infamy ; and whO else but that man—he meant Edwards—could have supplied the conspirators with money?—(Hear).— Was there not reason to euspect, then, that Edwards must have been siq plied by Government with the sums which enable.l him to assist the plans of the - conspirators? • Therefore he ~ vopld vote for this in quiry, because the condemnatin or exculpation of Ministers depended on the result of it. For his own part, he alihorred and detested Spier and informers; he coosidered them the very pests of society. The system of employing such miscreants, destroyed ail the principles of morality, and all the good feeling that ought to exist in a free country, and effaced all the traces of that good old English character, which once made the English People beloved and admired all over the world. But these were the useful in struments of Ministers ; and each of them might say, with naiy in the play, " Si ego dignns num hac contu India at to indignus qui fac:Tes tamcm." He again declared, that he hoped he was imbr2d with that old and vulgar prejudice of hatred to spies, as much as any common vulgar Englishman could be! Montesquieu had said, that spies would not be used by.a good Governme n t ; h u t Machiavel had gone a little tardier, for he main ta i ne j t h at they argued a state of distrust and deraet;ement in the State where • they were permitted. There was an instinctive anti.. pnthy on die part of the I''ople to thiS race of per sons. If his Maje,ty's Ministers, or,. rather, if the President of the Board of Controul, who was so much in the habit of publicly speaking, would only try the effect of this topic upon English feeling, he would be quite surprised at the effect produced—(A The greeting which would follow wouldforciloy re mind him of Satan on the floor of Hell, amidst hiss‘ ing Spirits! He did hope, in conclusion, that the public mind would be satisfied by such an inquiry as that proposed. If his Majesty's Niinisters did stand clear of all .connexion w with that odious creature Ed -wards, in Goo's name let them shew to the world that they did stand clear ! In the meantime he should, support the grounds of the inquiry—(Near, hear). M r . CA NN ING then rose. Ile began by stating, that his intention had been not to have interfered in the present discus sion ; but he was neither satisfied with the state in which this question had been left by the SiWr :hes which they had already. heard from either side of the 'Luse, nor by that of the Honour.- able Baronet who had just now spoken. he objected betides to matter which Rad been introduced into the debate, of which' he regretted the introduction ; and had the measure been kft merely upon those grounds upon which the worthy Alderman introduced it, he should not have now thought propei- to ad. dress the House upon the subject. The Honourable Baronet, however, had given It a form altogether different from that in which it had first appeared. Ile (Mr. Canning) had many ob jections to the motion of the Honourable and worthy Alder man; and it seemed that the Honourable Baronet in his argu ment had assumed what were mere assertions as facts, and hair then proceeded to argue upon them. This was the great evil of the Honourable Baronet's speech. He had not merely assumed these facts as proved, but as proved incontestably, and beyond. all contradiction. The Honourable Baronet had said, " When you employ spies, you employ a set of creatures to whom tfie people of this country are exceedingly averse." Now, pritriel facie, he thought it uo very heavy charge against the Govern-. ment of the country that they. had detected a conspiracy, of which, if it were not the grand object, it was at least the avowed one; not solely to dispatch a few obnoxious Individuals; but through their blood, to arrive at the destruction of the Metro polis, and at the rum of the country. His Majesty's Ministers did not take this as a merit to themselves ; it was no stets[ of their's that this plot bad been frustrated; for it had haitpened by a inost fortunate circumstance that it had been 'timely-de tected, before its diabolical objects could be carried intoexecu tion. It was most extraordinary, that the object of the cmtspi rators not being denied, the iMinisters should be blamed fret this: but their guilt arose out of this circumstance—they had employed human means—they has 'availed themselves of irttelli gence-rthey waited for no sudden revelations. Unlike the puritans of olden times, they did not calmly wait for the Lois, but they employed human means ; and, as it always happened, and always would happen in these plots, information was con veyed to them; and the plans of the conspirators were revealed,- and finally defeated. If they were to be told, on responsible authority, that the Constitution was about to he overturned, but at the same time were to reject every means of detection which didnot come to them from unexceptionable characters—if they were to believe no man, as to the existence of such a criminal association, whom they Could nut take to their bosoms, and to whom they could not confide the dearest seer( is of their souls, (which was the hypothesis of the lionourable Baronet,) how could they avail themselves of any previous intelligence of ap. proaching danger? Here he would ask, was it possible for ha man ingenuity to imagine anything so monstrous as this posi tion? The Honourable Baronet had taken it very mach to heart that there had been upon that (the Ministerial) side of the House, the appearance of what he called a smile, but which he might have called a laugh, at certain positions which had- been laid down in the course of his speech. Ile had insinuates), that he did expect that the subject before the House would have been a protection from everything like levity, even if it were to ' be supported by the most extraordinary sallies of wit; and, no doubt, the Honourable Baronet had found by that time, that I absurdity was.more ludicrous than wit. Surely the House could not be insensible to, they could not resist, the glorious absurdity of the proposition relative to the putting aside and rejecting the evidence of the man who came to inform them of the plot. Now, what would the Honourable Baronet have done, in a case of any private house, where he might be informed, by some indi vidual connected with a gang, that there was a design to set tire to the house, and cut the throats of the inmates? Supposing one of the gang were to come a day or two before, and Live no tice of the fact, was it meant that the master of the house should say to the informer', " Go, spotted traitor—traitor to your friends; retire, and hide your detested head in some distant village; I will not hear of your information ?" Now, if the II•- nourable Baronet alone were in suck a case, there could be nu person to blame but hiMself; he ctiuld be only answerable for himself ; and if he chose to live In magnificent solitude, it was matter of little consequence; but if he had any others under his tutelage. if he had children or , women under that tut e l age , h e ( Mr. Canning) would he glad to Inlay in what manner he pro posed to settle the balahce of moral duty between this romantic feeling and the base desertion of those children and females? The Honourable Baronet had chosen to ridicule the proper dis tinction, which hail been so clearly defined by the Honourable and Learned fie..tleman oppeSslte (Mr. Brougham), between in stigators and infoi wars. lie (Mr. Canni4) defeueted that deh nhion, and the -irl;entent fourdt ti by the Horton:able Barone: in opposition to it was one which ce.uld not be sustained: It yr: s against the system of an inet:vidual goihg among these corspia raters, and becoming, :s it were, part of them, in order to divide . their strength. But the Heneurable Baronet, bee mmy others, . seemed to think that there was a difference between the chats racters of an informer and a spy, and that he would accept inter- - 'nation from the one while he would reject it from the other. Now, if a man came on Wednesday, sun told tit m there vr:a a dreadful plot in agitation, which was to be ,c:ertied into effect upon the following Friday, were they to accerr;he first info rms _ tion; and take no steps to satisfy themselves of the Iprepsration of the latter ? Why, he woe' I put such a'ease as that totk.- e A ce casuists4.-these aielita:t dividers et .mondity-s- these !retorters or t. ~ .. . , 4 .~..~... chief bow fessi, to h; bad been duce him :and lie I that tern► been since • . h.