Star. — London, England, 1813-05-25 00:00:00

. * P.eiRLMMENY'ART PROCEEDINGS. HOUSE OF LORDS b MAY 24. In the Scotch Appeal Cause, " Tovey t.. Lindsay," Sir Sarnttel Itomilly and Mr. Ho'royd for the Appellant, Messrs. Adam and Brougham for the Respondent, and Sir Samuel Romilly in reply, were heard a length ; when the judgment of their Lordships was deferred to Friday next. In the Irish Appeal, " Fitzgibbon .. Scanlan," Sir Samuel Ro milly and Mr. Newman were heard for the Appellants; when the further hearing was pct offtill to-morrow. The LORD CHANCELLOR read to their I.ordships a letter which he had received from the Earl of Min•o, acknowledging the Vote of Thanks by that House s on the occasion of the Cap 'tore of the island of Java, and which had been presented by him to the several Officers employed in that service, whose Answers, denoting the sense they entertained of so distinguished an honour, his Lordship had enclosed. The Noble Lord made some gene ral observations on the powerftil e ff ects which must naturally be produced in generous minds from the aommunication of so high an honour as the Thanks of that House : and concluded vvitit a warm eulogium on the spirit, valour, and discipline of the Uri tro;v:. The letter was ordered to be inserted In the Journals. _ A great va irty of Petitions from numerous classes and de- Iteriptions of persons in the Counties of Derby, Lancaster, York, and Somerset, for the purpose of diffusing Christian Knowledge in India, were presented by the Earl of DERBY, Earl GREY, Lord COUR rowN, and the Duke of DsvoNSHIRt. The Petitions were all ordered to lie on the Table. The American Prize Goods Bill was read the third time and passed. Sir JAMES GRAHAM and others, from the Commons, brought up the Phcenix Insurance Company's and several Private Bills, which were read the first time.—Adjourned tiU to-morrow. HOUSE OF COMMONS. The House was• called over, and the Gallery was not opened until six o'clock, at which time, the rush of strangers, who had been waiting to gain admission, was so great, that the business of , the House was interrupted for a considerable time. Mr. CR EEVEY rose and stated, wishing, in consequence of some information given him by the Speaker, to change the form of hit proceedings with respect to the late trial, in which he was a party, be should forego his original design of proceeding by Pe tition, and would (not wishing to interfere with the important business which was now about to be brought before the House) take some other day to make such statement as should appear to Lim expedient. ROMAN CATHOLIC BILL. The Order of the Day for the further consideration of the Report on the Roman Catholic Relief Bill was read, and the Bill being recommitted, The SPEAKER rose and spoke to the following effect :—‘, It appears to me, upon the fullest consi deration of the subject now before the Committee, that there never was one submitted to them which • made it incumbent on them to proceed with so much caution and deliberation. The ostensible object of the Bill, the various clauses of which we are now to consider, is the admission of Roman Catholics to po litical power in a Protestant State.—(Hear, hear). — The Right Hon. Gentleman who was must active in bringing the measure to its present state, and who was among the principal of thole concerned in fra thing the Bill, has himself said, that the real object of it should be to conciliate and satisfy both those who seek for security, and those who seek for power; he has even said, that unless mutual conciliation and satisfaction were the result of it, it would not be de sirable that it should pass. —(Hear, hear). —Now what prospect is there that such conciliation and sa tisfaction will be the result.—(Hear, hear).—What do the Catholics in Ireland say to it ? Does the Board which sits in Dublin, and which may be con sidered as the organ through which their sentiments are conveyed, approve it ?—by no means. The most distinguished leaders of the Catholics, who form part of that Board, the auxiliary delegates, have loudly declaimed against its provisions. Are the Catholic Clergy satisfied ?—not a whit more than the Board. Dr. Troy, the titular Archbishop of Dublin has de clared, that it contains provisions worse than the old Veto. There is an Apostolical Vicar of the See of Rome in this kingdom, who is also the accredited ag:mt for the Irish Roman Catholics. What does he say to it ?—why, that all good Catholics should sooner lay down their lives than agree to it. I do contend, that under circumstances such as these it would be vain to look to any beneficial results from its passing into law ; and that its only effect will be, if it does so pass, to open a door to collisiOn and conflict— ( Hear, hear). —W e are now to examine clauses which appear to me introductory of a system at war with principles hitherto considered as fundamental in the Constitution. It is allowed indeed now, that the claims which have been put forward are not founded upon abstract right, and that Parliament has a right to make such regulations in the civil and religious affairs of the people as may scent expedient. Let us then inquire how far the clauses of the present • Bill are entitled to that character. It is a position assented to by the wisest of mankind, that the civil authority of the State should be vested in such per sons who go to compose its population as may con form to the religion established in it ; but that, on the other hand, that a conformity to the religion of the State should not be required in a greater degree than is necessary to afford it security. The measure of danger being thus made the measure of exclusion, doubtless we should exclude all those from the power of the State who dissent from its religion, but at the same time bestow on them the most ample toleration. For the space of one hundred and twenty years we have regulated our conduct towards the Protestant I Dissenters upon this principle--not admitting them A fully to the power of the State, because some danger, whether real or supposed, was apprehended from doing so, yet admitting them in that degree which was considered not to militate against our safety ; and on the same principle have we guarded in the same manner against the alleged danger which would arise from the admission of Roman Catholics. With respect to the Protestant Dissenters, they are admit ted, by certain legal provisions, to Parliament, and to most of those privileges for which the Catholics now sue. I ,7oncurred with the late Mr. Wyndham, when he, on a former occasion stood forward as their advocate, and still think the indulgences they enjoy have been merited by their tried loyalty and peace able demeanour. Is the case similar with respect to the Catholics ? It is alledged, whether truly or falsely, that their principles have undergone no change ; for -any own part, I must profess that I am one of those who think that the allegation is well founded—and ;guage of the late Mr. Burke, I will ;elusion from power in Church era less than a just and necessary provi land in the army and navy I think nnittecl, distinguishing, as I do, the of the State, from that which is Ital to its maintenance and preserva erseuual power and jurisdiction of the State the/ must be excluded, if we mean the Constitution to be safe ; but there is rio man here would go further than him who has uttered this sen timent, in throwing open to them all such rewards and honours as they may enjoy, without injury to Church or State, as well as securing the bleisings of the most liberal toleration. Bat to what do the pro visions of the present Bill go ? In the first place, they give them seats in both Houses of Parliament, and open to them nearly all the Offices of the State. Nov, as to their admission to Parliament, it seems to be admitted, both by those who support and those who oppose their claims, that every other ulterior object they may have in view will follow the attain ment of this as matters of course.—(Hear, hear). — Their talents have been insisted upon ; those talents 1 , they will not fail to exert as leaders in Parliament, and when we should see them exerting them in that capacity and in the capacity of Ministers—when we should see in them so dangerous a combination of means and motives, should we not have to appre hend that their views must be gratified—that they would have recourse to violence to gratify them ? It is a clear proposition, that when they sit here they must become the confidential servants of the Crown, and if with the power then vested in them they should incline to the popular party in the State, it is impos sible to shut one's eyes to the fact, that a mass of strength such as they would bring to it would not in a high degree endanger the Constitution.—(Hear). — All, then, they wish to have, must inevitably be granted them if their present claims be acquiesced in. And, here, be it permitted me to say, that I should not conceive it the least evil that would in all proba bility result from their admission to this place, that we should no longer see within its walls many of those now present who will vote for their admission. (Hear, hear.) —So much it appears to me may be fairly said with respect to their having the doors of Parliament thrown open to them. In the Privy Council their influence and the evils to be apprehended from it would be analogous and equally alarming. We now come to the consideration of their proposed admission to judicial offices. Let it be admitted that such offices of this nature as they might be appointed to would be as ably administered as it is possible they could be administered, still they would not give 1 1 the same satisfaction to Protestant suitors as would be afforded by a Protestant Judge, and if justice is not administered so as to give satisfaction there is no jus tice at all. Upon these grounds I shall resist their admission to judicial offices. As to military employ ments, those I have already said I would wish to be laid open to them in the fullest extent. Let their career be as ample as it can be made, and the honours of the profession showered on them in all abundance, those offices only being placed beyond their reach which involve in them any portion of what may be termed the essential power of the State. With re spect to the other offices which might devolve on them by the favour of the Crown or in consequence of corporate rights, I am disposed to think with the Noble Viscount who recently expressed his opinion on this subject, that the Catholics should be left in the same circumstances as other non-conformists who enjoy such offices by virtue of a bill of indemnity. The same rule I should think might be conveniently adopted with respect to independent members of uni. versities, that is to say, Catholics should be excluded in all cases in which other non-conformists are ex cluded, and admitted in all cases in which they are admitted. Having now noticed my chief objection to the Bill, I have further to observe, that I have to complain of the omission of much that should have formed part of its contents. I think that it should have contained provisions imposing some restraint on the religious establishments which are to be found in the country, and guarding against, their increase.— (Hear, hear.)—We have establishments of Benedic tines, of Fransciscans, of Dominicans, of almost every monastic order, and there are now lodged at Stony hurst certain funds for the use of the order of Jesuits, which appear to me to constitute an object of jealousy sufficient to arouse the vigilance of the State the least inclined to suspicion. From Maynooth students are constantly sent to Sicily for ordination, and, on their return, they are entrusted with the education of youth. Now that all this should exist, and that all considera tion of it should be excluded from the Bill cannot but be regarded as forming a strong ground of ob jection to it. Again, it has left untouched the prac tice of spiritual excommunication ; instances of the evils springing from which will be recollected in the year 1731, evils which were deeply lamented by the English Catholics. Surely this was a fit subject for the attention of the Gentlemen who undertook to frame the Bill. But I have even to complain that there are concessions omitted which leave the Bill very imperfect. Why was there not a provision to establish the right of the Catholic soldier to attend to the service of his own church, a subject we have heard so much of in the House ?—(Hear, from the Opposition benches.) —Why was there not a clause abolishing the law which makes it compulsory on Catholics to so lemnize their marriages in Protestant Churches ? Why not another to protect their places of worship from insult ?—(Hear, hear, hear.)—The fact is, that toleration was not the object of the framers of the Bill, what they wanted to give the Catholics was po litical ascendancy.—( Loud and continued cries of Hear, hear, from the Treasury benches.) —In their views I can - not acquiesce. I must repeat that I think, and my opinion is supported by the authority of Mr. Burke, that the adoption of them would go to effect a change ' in the political system of the State, such as would shake the whole fabric of the Constitution. If we grant the claims we abandon a principle which, once abandoned, there is no point round which we may rally when we have discovered our error. We must resist the mischief in the breach, or it will be irresisti ble. When the tide by its first influx has sapped a portion of the mound the partial dilapidation may be yet susceptible of repair, but if that be neglected till at full flood the waters rush through the chasm, we shall then, in vain, deplore the infatuation that pre vented us from securing ourselves from their violence, while it was yet possible to do so. I now come to that part of the Bill which affects to provide securi ties for the Church and the State; these consist partly of an oath and partly of restriction in the ap pointment of the Roman Catholic Clergy, and on their intercourse with the See of Rome. Now the operation of this oath on the minds of such persons of the Catholic Religion as are well educated; and possess enlightened minds, I am by no means disposed to undervalue, I am sure such persons will feel it 'coMpletely nbtgatory. tut t am far froth thinkini that it will he so felt by the mass of the Catholic who it is well known are in a state of great ment : darkness and absolute subjection to the priesthood : but on this part of the subject I shall not dilate, inas., moth as I expect that-it will be treated in detail by an Hon. Baronet, who is capable of giving the House much more satisfactory information with moppet to it than I could pretend to do. But it is pretty plain that the framers of the Bill themselves did not regard this oath as sufficient, inasmuch as they have thought it necessary to superadd other securities. I do not wish to go back to times long past to shew its insufficiency, nor is it necessary. The Sovereign Pontiff in our , own times has issued instructions to his Church, in . which, having made a distinction between active and passive oaths,- he has asserted that those of the latter kind only may be taken for the satisfaction of to heretical government. In the document in which this doctrine is laid down, it is moreover said, that call oaths taken contrary to the interest of.theChurch •are null and void ; and this document has been with in these . 4B hours promulgated and disseminated in London by the principal Roman Catholic Prelate in this country and the agent for the Irish Catholic.— With respect to the restrictions in the Ecclesiastical appointments and the intercourse of the priesthood with the See of Rome, I shall first observe, what ever may be the merit of thoie provided for by the Bill, it is plain that some such restrictions the Le gislature has a right and is in duty bound to adopt. In the first form which the Bill assumed, I was not disposed to think that the mode of nomination was such as would give satisfaction to either party. As it has been since altered it appears to me much less objectionable, so far as the Crown is concerned, but I apprehend that it has undergone no improvement in the eyes of the Catholics. I would suggest, that in addition to the present provision of the Bill on this head, the regular Clergy should be rendered insus ceptible of . being nominated by the regular Clergy. The House will understand that I mean the monas tic orders. These people, in addition to the alle giance they owe the Temporal Sovereign, not only give a spiritual allegiance to the Roman Pontiff, but also own the authority of a General of each order. Now the General of the Order of Jesuits is at pre sent in Russia; but who will undertake to say, that he may not be in a short time an inhabitant of France ? The General of the Dominicans is in Spain, but he may also change his residence. Dr. Troy, Titular Archbishop of Dublin, is a member of this last mentioned order. Surely it is not expedient that persons owing this treble and too probably conflict ing allegiance, should be capable of being nominat ed. I must express a hope too that we may not see an apostolical vicar of the See of Rome suffered to exercise his delegated authority in this kingdom.— The person now exercising it is also the diplomatic agent of the See of Rome, the mandates of which it is not reasonable to suppose he would hesitate to obey, and that on at least half a million of Ca tholic subjects in Great Britain, of whom a great proportion would undoubtedly obey his. It is due to the Government, to the country, . and to the Ca tholics themselves, that this tyranny should be abo lished. As I thought in the first state of the Bill the mode of nomination objectionable, so did I think, of the regulation with respect to the intercourse between the Catholic Clergy and the See of Rome ;—these have also been improved, but I apprehend they have been exposed to similar objections on the part of the Catholics. I must own, however, that I am averse to any amendment in a spiritual state in - its relation with a temporal . government, as though the clan destine proceedings. in the present ca s es would be through an unauthorised channel, still that circum stance does not altogether remove my objections.— I wish generally, that the viards which have been adopted may not be over-rated, but that we should consider and reconsider whether we have in them an equivalent for which we may barter the strength of our Protestant Establishment.—(Hear, hear.) — The Roman Catholic Prelates profess implicit obe dience to the See of Rome, and they are directed to exercise their spiritual jurisdiction without the inter vention of any document whatever. This is a spirit which Englishmen should not incautiously or with out great consideration give way ; this is the spirit which our Clarendon and Somers as statemen, our Locke as a philosopher, and William 111. la a sovereign prince, pronounced. incompatible with the Constitution. This spiritual jurisdiction cannot be innoxiously co-existent with a Protestant Govern ment.—(Hear, hear.) —To conclude, I must repeat that the point at which we must make our stand, is the proposed admission of Catholics into the two Houses of Parliament ; if this be granted, all ulterior objects must be easily obtained.—(Hear, hear.) — I shall therefore move, that the words of the hist clause which admit Catholics to the two Houses of Parliament be left out." Mr. WHITBREAD regretted much the part the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite had taken in the dis cussion, particularly because having rarely an oppor tunity of expressing his sentiments in that House, they must derive considerable weight from that cir cumstance. He had now made a speech in which he professed to advance some objections to the clauses of the Bill, but which, in fact, went to its utter ex tinction—He would, indeed, admit the Catholics to military offices, but he would exclude them from all judicial situations---(Hear)--he would put down the Monastic orders--he_ thought the views of the Apos-, tolic dangerous, and that he ought to be expelled the land—yet he would sutler the Bill to be thrOwis out which was formed, the only opportunity which would probably be afforded for years of getting rid of those nuisances which were so much the object of his dis like. The Right Hon. Gentleman had availed him self of some dissatisfaction with the Bill which bad been expressed by the Catholic Board in Dublin to strengthen his reasonings against it, but what did that in reality go to prove ?--why, that there would be always some dissatisfied on such occasions —(Hear , hear.) Was it possible that he could hope that. per- I sons would be contented whose business it was aevOr to be contented. There never would be wanted 4iss,, contented auxiliaries of the Catholic Board--(Hear, hear.) There were many persons of this description, who telt that the passing of the Bill now under con sideration would be a death-blow to their come quence—(Hear, hear,) to whom that individual coo sequence was every thing, the interests of the Catho lic Body nothing. But if the proceedings of the Board in Dublin were calculated to give oleacc, be lotions, eu e :Cs u li s eoia l n d ni o intwi w caah t it tivte v e ry yh ht numerous atod diffe r e nt th a e r rwt hve eei ocpdtUhi point ignnt wouldot resoluti o ns o wyc l neuaewtt Catholics exhibit ciits,d a ha d cei je:Dthtt, it which a Gem leinan of great wealth and l hility had presided.—[Here the Hon. Member the proceedings of the meeting in question.] Honourable Member then continued : he v.-oul the Right Hon. Member whether these resilt had not released his mind from the apprehe n , under which he had appeared to labour?? not, moreover, Indulge a rational hope from the of one of them, that he would not be deprived t assistance of a Right Hon. Member in the wt legislation, the loss of whom he had content; With so much uneasiness? The Right Holt. ber was not averse to the admission of Cana : . the Army and Navy, hut he did not approve (a admission to the Bench or to Parliament, entert, jag altogether a different opinion from an Hot. ble Baronet who had recently stated that from admission to the Navy he entertained the great , prehensions. He would excuse him, if, as he hi had treated the apprehensions of others as viii he should now treat his in the same light—he ceived they were' altogether groundless—hia was one of his principles of objection at un. could not testify sufficient surprise. Ha had de:, it as his opinion that a Catholic Jthlge could u. satisfaction in deciding between individual ani vidual—( Hear, Hear, hear.) He would be of administering justice to the satisfaction tart suitors—(.Rear, hear.) If the Right Hi able Member had not meant to say so, he have an opportunity of explaining what he did He had assigned two reasons why Cathoiics be inadmissible to judicial offices—the one was causes in which the Church was interested come under their cognizance ; the other, that would he unable to administer justice to the caul tion of Protestant suitors. Now the Catholir heretofore, indeed, grounds for a complaint, here anticipated for the Protestants. This, was dissipated by the liberal feelings which bad found their way -into men's minds. The Pro: , ascendency in Ireland, and the state. of the mind in England towards the Catholics, consi a great grievance to that body. If, with an the state of things, a Catholic should appreitenl having his cause prejiniged if he were to appear 1- fore the tribunal of a Protestant Judge, wouid Protestant indignantly disclaim the imputation cast upon them ? The Right Hon. Member, sorry to obset ve, had adopted in his speech the lat of the hustings, thence the cry was, that if the lies were admitted to power, the King would ; none but Catholics to office. When they were ted to have setts in Parliament, there would but Catholic Members elected. He hoped would soon be convinced how little ground for apprehensions of this nature ; indeed, there one circumstance now before his eyes, which mil- itself seem to correct the delusion. - In the coin his duty, lie had of late been fatigued by the bring. ing up of the numerous Petitions against the Catholic Claims signed by the Protestants, till at length they came in such shoals that they were laid upon the table without being read, their purport only being ascertained. Now. these were, as he observed before, signed by Protestants—by Protestant voters. It would appear, then, according to the hypothesis of the Right Hon. Gentleman, that these persons who were so averse to the Catholics being admitted to Parliament, as soon as they were admitted, would im. mediate!) , come round to a different way of thinking; and while in the very act of deploring the removal of those guards to the Constitution, which they were so anxious to preserve in their full vigour, world think the exercise of that winch was in their own pone improper, and at all elections vote for Catholic cm. didates.—( Hear, hear.) —The Dissenters might tom; and did, come into the House of Parliament : they 'laboured - under grievances also, and did they endea vour to repeal the acts of security, and overthrow the Established Church ? At . the time when 'the great authorities existed whom the Right Hon. Gentleman had quoted, the characters of the Catholic and the Protestant differed as materially as light did from darkness ; Protestant then supported Protestant, and Catholic then supported Cathalic —the former.deten mined to have and maintain a Protestant suceessite to the Throne, and the latter resolved to sustain the righti of a Catholic King, or a Catholic Pretender. So l.rng as that state of things existed, the famtirnents of such wise and enlightened men deserved con3idaa• tion and weight; but matters were now happily al. tered—the Catholics mutually supported the Pro testant Throne at home and abroad, in alliance with their reformed brethren ; and had Lord Clarendon, Lord Somers, King William, and Mr. Locke, lived now, they would have 'delivered very different opt. nions. The Right Hon. Gentleman had proposed to annul the first clause ; but, in removing that, he took away the best part, and left nothing but wreck aad remnant, out of which the Right Hon. Gentlemai had proposed to frame some measure conciliatory tai the Catholics. How painful must it have been to the Right Hon. Gentleman, when propositions, in former Sessions, were made for allowing . to the Cathiiiic soldier the free exercise of his religion, all of which had been unsuccessful ! lie must have felt his he. •wrung at the denial of Parliament, and must hire longed to leap out of his chair to support such a met sure.-(4 laugh )—But the Right Hun. Gentlenus expressed a wish to propos: a Bill accordirt 'to. the notions which he entertained s he had ricstreol some opinions foe_ his own use ; and jog though the •s were kitting °din:right and on his lett, the Marg.( W. Ryder and Mr. Yorke) of he had never heretofore whispered to them any pt`' positions, nor counselled them to guard against tht immineht danger of rnonastical institutions. (A lar,4) The influence of these bodies of men had been par' cularly noticed as detrimental to general concili.- - but it the Right. Hon. Gentleman drove them be would do more for the establishment of Bower than ha _ ''bier meditated in England for wards .of an fiundt:ed years. He was firmly i'• waded, if the Bill -passed into a law, that it wouli be productive of great benefit to the community' 'that the •Cathnlics would be , perfectly contented ; that there would be no need for she persecntion of h Monastic institutions. The Right Hon. Gentin Am '. though lie alum liad ore argeuneddot the Di ll againstthe principle ot m to another, adopting the lang say, that their ex State is nothing h sion. To comma they may be adys essential power c merely instrument sou. From the ,dopt t j a Catholic lett r tin , wee in Cork, h t i_Pecb.. Cher r.. 14 ] T b , ot,' ash ehensio ns Might he die teric c red 11: the e svoi lc :eni 4t et t 30. Mere... I intfl re c.t th t i entert•nu. iom their . eate:t ;.p. ie Inoneif v4ionary, --11 c UhIC:I de:irLred ii u„t tiv e and in&. incapable if litotes. Honour. he Would lid memi, blloula was, that ed would that they e sattslitc. iolics had li t aster 59 indeed, had lately Protestot he pubic onstitnzel an eve ID Ipprehetul appear be- lid not the Ation this !r, he was language Ile (*.Attu). Id appoint re pertnit• d be cone that he id he had there Was I might in course d the bring. e Clithohe ngth they upon the .t.. ssuwaus, noval of were in Id think a power alit casi fit come, tc : they endea- trow the he great ;adman and the id from int, ant ir -deter- cees.sion tain the etender. atimenn Ituid,ra• ppily aL he Pm- ace with /Tendon, ke, lived rent epl; posetl ro he took eck and ntlemin latory !la to the former Catholic which is hest ast hoe A iner nt Irma cordx; rt:St I ‘6l t P4fti for tY* tly tYr' wouhi flunky; j ; A nd 3 of the tiro^ of the r, hAiir