Star. — London, England, 1813-11-09 00:00:00

T rite itAsekt et eofteueevuet &atom %ea e -•iee,Oepoe,tele. mod that no one would venture to assert it, bow Mid akin,eld iieetat WV 'iatittlifstß itfie Ord,* - • a& e •te 111% . I it be justi fi able to postpone, as the Noble Lord propo . pounder•of4}ie sentiments of that House. These' ene ced, the investigation of such a serious charge as that• thaws, however, must be Wily ascerthitted, . and 'be 'whicb he had that night advanced against an officer 'hoped that neither the dignity of the Houseemor ehat of the `highest distinction in that assembly ? How; of the Right Hon. Gentleman in the Chair, would ; could it be warrantable to hold up the conduct of., be compromised, by attempting in any sorrepti#4 such .an - exalted Officer (without any referenceto his. manner theoogh: a ivote-in's tithe House, and in th e personal character), so long untried and unheard , td absence of the Irish Members, to avert theample general suspicion, or • implied censure ??--(Crier I:g . . and just investigation of such• an important subject; Hear, hear! en the Minister:id .11:ticIto.)—Of such con- Yet-hi. was not, be owned, friendly to the motion at duct he (Mr,' B.) thought the House and the Right preeent, heed:lse. he apprehended that the object; in Hon. Gentleman in the Chair entitled to complain. desiring-the productidn. of this Paper, might be pre- Upon the merits of 'the question; to which the expres. maturely to press the dispassion alluded 'to. With' ei me in . thee spe e ch objected to by the Noble Lord respect - to the quotient, the arglitentittive speech of were. understood to apply,' he meant to make no ob- the Right Hon. Gentlemart who spoke latt did not servatiorr whatever- Thaterestielt ought nab in.his serve to convince his'mind that the Speaker could be judgfirent, to be at all taken into consideration, in -atithorized to make use of such expressions as were viewiog the speech allndedeo. It ives, indeed, in his -on this occasion referred to. * Indeedthe Right Hon. view, a Matter of indifference what were the merits of Gentleman's interpretation of the recedients he had the question in a casewhich ought to be considered in alluded to appeared quiteerroneOuei these precedents' the abstriet, without any reference to that questions eltvipusly implying that the Spea'ker's authority re- Of the precise point in the speech to*whiclethe Noble eel to acts done, bin that to ;sets *done, he had Lord .particularly objected, he ; (Mr. B.) was not ~ no auttority whateverto'stchiett. Upon the allusion aware; but he hoped that, in-theconsideration of that . theneeehich waitepciettcleto:hatre been made by the' point, it. was' not meant to discuss by a side wind n .1 Speaker' in this caie, h' fill himself justified to im question of-indisputable importance, or to excite and pugn that Right_ Hon: Gentleman's authority. Noe inflate dissentiene and animosities'which it was so thing in . fact had been done to warrant the' allusion. much more desirable-to.heal and allay.' He, for him- He denied, indeed, that any proceeding had been self, had no hesitation in saying, that it Would be un- taken 'by. the 'House ipon the important question fair to .mix the discussion of the Catholic questiba alluded to; of which the *Right Hon. Gentleman in with the merits of the motion to which the Noble the Chair could, etirietly speaking; have any cogni- Lord's notice referred, and with which it could have zante—biet ltereeheeirOuld tie understood to speak of, eve necessary connection. It the object of the. Noble bin., as ripeatilicofficer, and ntit as an individual Member. Lord'. motion was to censure the Speaker for any . Recurring' to the =Licit, .the Hpnourable Member 4 , excess of duty," or departure from Parliamentary repeated the expressioinof his hope; th.t if the motion practice, that ought to be stated nt once, and imme- were acceded to no Proceeding Would be taken, on diately investigated, without referring to the Catholic the production Of this Oper, inconsistent with the dig. question; 'Such reference, indeed, being abstained' pity of the House. *- - 1-le hoped also that it was not the from as irrevaleat to the motion, that motion might object of the Honoureble Mover or his advisers to be one into without waiting fur the attendance of }stele etny motion in. this'business with a view to ob the Irish MeMbers; but if it were resolved to mix the thin someettessime or appeerameenf strength to their two questions, the attendance should be as full as pos- aide eilth regard to the Catholic question. Yet he Bible. Sucha discussion 'ought indeed to be preceded contd eethelP frying that there was ground for ap by a Call of the House; while, if the Noble Lord's peeltension, if 'the discussion which the Noble Lord's motion referred only to privilege, as it ought, the - notice lewd' in' view were pressed, particularly in the House, as at present attended, must be regarded as absence of the Irish Members. .But the Honourable fully competent to pronounce a correct decision, and Mover had observed, that the Irish Members ought the trial should be immediately proceeded upon ; for •to be present in the House, and to be sure it was very as the case appeared, there ntight be doubts as to the well for the Representative of a County immediately Speaker's fitness for the high office which he had SO adjoining the metropolis to make such an assertion long. occupied. Certainly what had occurtcd seemed With regard to those Representatives whose retie calculated to excite such doubts in some 'melds. The dence was at so many hundred miles distant. It proposed postponement then admitted, in his view, of . was undoubtedly true, that since the Union the no justification, particularly "on the grounds stated by I, w k Members were called upon to - attend their the Noble Losd. But at whatever time, or under . duty in that House, but cute consideration was whatever circumstances, it was meant to bring the due. to Gentlemen . who resided At such a distance, Noble Lord's motion. under discussion, it was (AM- particularly when Parliament was convened .at so seedy necessary to have the document to which the early a period, and therefore the Irish Members' motion before the House alluded, and the production did not-quit e dese r v e th e cr i t i c i sm o f t h e Honou ra bl e ' of that document was th e on ly o bj ect of the motion 1 Mover, who could with so little inconvenience attend under consideration. Ot coiirse,*then, that motion the meetings of that House. With respect to the could not be consistently opposed. AS to the cha- I . Noble Lord behind him, he had certainly had no ratter of the'speech alluded to, he should not at pre- concert or communication whatever with that Noble sent enter into the consideratiOn of it,. but he must ob- Lord before he made the observation alluded to on serve, that no instructions were ever offered to any the first day of the Sessions. He had indeed heard Speaket, as to what he should say on presenting Mo- 'at the close of the lest Sessions, that it was the inten ney Bills for the Royal Assent, and according to the tion of the Noble Loire to submit a motion to the able statement of precedents„ drawn up by an Officer House respecting the Speaker's speech, and if he of the,House (Mr. Hatsell), it was usual with Speak- had not so heard he might probably himself have felt ers, on presenting the Money Bills, to dilate on other it hi s d u ty to,,b e in g . the ,euelject under 'discussion.— measures, which had enga g ed* the attention of the .13tit as to the con duct of ,the Noble Lord on the occa i:louse in the course of the Sessions, and this too-with. *skin, he might possibly feel himself in some difficulty, out any previous instructions. In the couise of . such whether he ought to give notice of his intention ein observations, then, a Speaker might impute motiv men mediately on the opening of the. Sessions, or postpone, to the conduct of the Majority or Minority in the that notice until after the ; recesse ,Had he really telt , adoption or rejection of certaitimeasures, withcut in- such difficulty; the Noble i s ord's. decision was, be curring or deserving any censure. There were, in- y on d quest ion, the more eligible, and the Honourable deed, but few instances on recotd, in which the mover's interference with him was quite without pre ' speeches delivered on such occasions were ever brought' cedenr; ' The Hon Moyer and others had complain 'under the consideration of that House. The 'speeches ed'of thee Noble Lord's having uttered' a serious cen. so delivered in 1715 and 1745 were to be found on sure „pa the S peaker , whereas iu point of fact the the Journals, and these speeches were not confined NO blel e ord'soriginal notice was a simple annunciation merely. to observations on Money Bills, nor was the me , a the' mere fact, 1... L that he meant to bring the speech speech of Sir Fletcher Norton, whiEh was also inseetire:Alludetho'undel the cote.idefetion of the House, an on the Journals. Indeed, the speech of Mr. Sleek , afcmialsiitired by any expression of censure whatever. Lenthal, in the course of the Long Parliamint, eig , - Still those who made the complaint would press the verted to a variety of topics. But it could not be in Noble Loid fora detail of his grounds and intentions, furred, from the mere insertion of any of those speeches and if he complied with their demand, they would no in the Journals, that they had of course the approba- - doubt immediately exclaim-ee , New you have sent' tion of the House, for the contrary appeared. from the your complaints against the Speaker, do you mean to discussion which took place upon Sir Fletcher Nor- go no farther, but leave the Right Hon. Gentleman ton's speech after such insertion. Therefore the pro- subject to such imputations until atter the recess ?" posed insertion of the speech then 'under considera- All this, and other reasons, would no doubt be urged tion, could not be concluded to imp'' , an approbation prematurely to get rid of the Nettle Lord's motion. of its contents and character. Indeed, such cnsertion Such, he feared, was the end in view, amid therefore was indispensible to a just consideration of the case, he was adverse to this minim, although he should which consideration ought, in his opinion, to be en- readily vote for the production of the document a l. tered into as soon as possible, in order to ascertain luded to at a proper time before the Noble Lord's whether there was ground for the insinuations which motion should be brought forward. Still he could bad gone forth upon this' subject, and whether the not help repeating his wish and hope, that no attempt' speech so much animadverted upon, really contained i would be made on the production of this document any thing repugnant to the privileges of the House ? to interfere with the original notice . of the Noble Mr. WHITBREAD said, that the course which Lord ; but that the whole matter would-lee lest to' bad been taken by, the Hon. Member for Surrey on the discretion and candour of the Noble Lord—to' this occasion was quite unprecedented. It was indeed, that discretion which could not be questioned, and lee believed, the very first time that a notice of motion to that candour upon which the Right Hon. Gentle bad been interfered with in such a manner as the Ho-, mm in the Chair must be so ready to rely.—(Hear, pourable mover had thought proper to adopt with re- Ilear, Near.) sport to that of the Noble Lord, who might in fact Lord CASTLE RE AG H observed, that the House have brought forward his motion without any notice and the Right Hon. Gentleman in the Chair were, att all, or at least without any notice until very near upon this eccesion, , placed in a very ,painful predicaz the period at which lie proposed to bring his motion meat, and highly reipectirig the character of the No. before the Hwise. Upon what just ground then could ble Lord, he would appeal to his. candour whether it the Noble Lotd be censured for the line he had taken ? was not due to the House and to justice to bring But he confessed that he could not precisely under- forward, with all practicable expedition, a question stand the grounds or the views cf the Hon. Mover, so materially affecting the character of the Chair ? nor those of the Right Hon. Gentleman who had whether it would be reconcilable with common fair spoken last, although he had spoken so long. It stem- ness to allow a charge so derogatory to the Speaker. 'edto be the intention to prevent the extension of time as the transgression of his duty to remain suspended proposed by the NobleLord'e notice, andby following over his head so, long as the Noble Lord had men up the present motion with something, to get rid car tioned ? If it were only the object of the Noble Lord that in the contemplation of the Noble Lord. With to discuss the Speaker's performance of his dely,or regard to the subject of this motion, he need not pro- attention to privilege, that was aquestion upon which less that which he was known to feel, namely, the he. thought, with his Right Honourable Friend (Mr. eighestrespect for thegeneralconductofthe.Right Hon. Bathurst), the House in the present stateot its ;men- Gentleman in the discharge of the duties which ap- dance was fully competent to decide ; but if with that pertained to the high office he occupied in the Chair it were, intended to connect another motion, which .'f that House. From his observation indeed of that must require a larger attendance, particularly of Irish conduct, he could not hesitate to bear his testimony. Members, he could not forbear from most earnestly de to the superiority of the Right Honourable Gentle, preceling the intention. Foy he should always tie averse nian to any other Speaker whom he had ever seen.— to the discussion of that great .. questicin collaterally. But still he must persist in the expression which be Deeply as he felt. interested its its progress, and l.ad used on a former occasion, namely, that the anxious as he was for its ultimate success, he must Right Honourable Gentleman was not authorised'in ever protest* against any , nrticeeding calculated, to whet he was reported to have said in anotjeer place, introduce its discussiotaby a side wind, to fritter dowel 1 id Also that from the expeeterice of the present See- its great importance, or to divide those who were 1.. rra2s►r . ift ;le . ... - :eetl-cii" ..1. - j - .1 - - . 'therwise liiiposed to igfet tiptm its real Merit*. But !aittatever Tight 'be the' Noble Lord's object,: Niue -tetild consisteltlydisagroe wish a motion which ohiy .. propOsed io put the House and the tonntri 'in- 00S. session of a document upost which theiN4le Lord 4lpposed to found his motion, and which had been the subject of so much snim idversion--,of artiMail- • version, in his judgment, quite misapplied, because resting Upon 'in erroneous interpretation of a,o ex, presssion s in the Speech alluded tO. Upon the real i!firaqter 'of this expression lie did not at present kroPose to dwell—brit he would appeal to the . • Fortsideration of the House, and the justice of the p ic, whether , fairly viewing the sizilation of the . . att , acting without instructions from the tbl ab) te, - in the discharge of a critical tt ust and a anon- Ale duty, he should, where it is imp issiale to ascrib? an improper mAtive, be Iteld,subject to , censitre far any Mere iditecuracy of expression, or error of inference, whether he should be solemnly condemned for incon clusive. reasoning—for an imperfect effort to anatomize the motives of that House, or an incorrect description Of those motive} ? So much .lael Lord Castlereagh) ',vas led to say 'in anticipation of the Nibble L -)rd's Aaotion, which he trusted _would be brought forward as soon as possible, in order to relieve the House and the Chair from. the painful situation in which they w ere. placed by a. notice which, implying censure, certainly suggested the propriety of acceding 10 the.rpotion under'consideration. _Mr. S.. WORTLEY, in a few words, observed, thet. ilieNiible Lord( (Morpeth) had not explained whe , Ater the question ought to be Considered as one of privilege, or one involving the,propriety of the senti ments expressed in the Speaker's speech ? . If the fur. !per, the discussion did not require further delay ; if 'the latter, it became'necessary. Mr. C. W. WYNNE thought that this was an im portant subject, on which the fullest information should be procured. He differed in some degree from the Hon. Seconder of the motion. Its chief object should be, whether the speeds of the Speaker should go forth to the public as conveying the sentiments of the whole House? He agreed that the possession:of the document itself was necessary, and wished that if it should arise from future practice that the custom of addressing the Throne should be allowed, the' speech made by the Speaker on that occasion should be entered on the Journals of the House of Commons, in order to become a fair and open subject of discus sioo. He:would request the Honourable Mover to add the words 0 for the use of the Members" to his ' Motion. Mr. TIERNEY.—se I have heard much (said he) ot.assertion3 that the notice of my Noble Friend's mo 'ion has pot the Speaker in a painful situation, where , as; in point of fact, you, the Speaker, have put your self in that situation, by a speech which you thought proper to make at - the close of the last Sessions of Par liament, which speech, in my opinion, and in that of : many thinking men, deserves the serious attention and. consideration of this House. for in that speech,you uttered an assertion, bearing an interpretation calcu lated to excite pain, not only aniona those whe-aloied for the Catholic Bill in the course of the last Sessions, -bat among four. millions of your fellow-subjects, who bating been placed in a state ()fp:Mitt:l delicacy ior four months, during which there was no opportunity to call upon you for any explanation, it cannot be too lunch then for yotl to wait for two months, until the Irisb Members, who are most interested in-the ques tion, are able to attend this House."—Adverting to the conduct of Lord Morpeth, Mt. Tierney main. I I rained, that it was marked by peculiar delicacy and 'candour. The Noble Lord had not attempted to ' excite any prepossession or prejudice against the Right Hon. Gentleman in the Chair, nor had he uttered any thing that could be even construed into an accu sation, in the harsh sense of the word. Ail his Noble .Friend alleged was, that the speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman was such as deserve& the consideration— as ought to be inquired into by that House. His Noble Friend did not say or insinuate, nor should lie (Mr. T.) say of any Gentleman, that he had uttered that which was incapable of juotfetation. But to make that justification satisfactory hiblic justice, and •Creditable to the Right Hon.• ltlemrn himself, it ought to take place in a full House. Mr. RYDER complained, that when there had been an opportunity, three months ago, of calling ; at , consideration whether the sentiments expressed by the Speaker were of a questionable nature, the charge had been so long suspended. He would ask, whether that was consistent with that candour and with justice, which be knew regulated the conduct of the Noble Lord, he might say his Noble Friend, iu private and public life? Such a mode he thought entirely unprecedented. If the qnestion did not re late to the first' authority in th;t - House, would the . Noble Lord, or any other, ccnsider it - consistent with . justice and liberality to keep a charge so long suspen ded over any individual, without calling for an im mediate discussion ? He was confident that no im putation of undue motives could be cast on the. ' Speak s er's conduct, and protested against the conduct pursued, as totally unsupported by precedent. ' Mr. ABEReRONII3IE would riot have risen, had it not been for one expression which he thought 'should not go uncontradicted. The Right Honour ' able. Gentleman had stated that the motion on the Speaker's speech ought to have been made at his re; 'turn from the House of Peers, and not kept sus.' pended for month over his head. Was he igno ! rant that this was an utter impossibility, as this House no longer existed as the Commons House of Parliament when the Speaker h.id just been attending at the prorogation of Parliament ? It was impossible . that it should have been bound by any notice his No ble Friend might have given, and such conduct WOl'ld h:tve been quite unparliamentary. He thought the charge of want of candour and justice brought against his Noble Friend totally unfounded. The decision to.which the House were -called was most important. If it should be found that the Speaker had acted consistently with precedent and principle, all of course must approve his conduct. If lie was defi cient in precedent but right in principle, it would become a consideration whether his act should be sanctioned by the approbation of Parliament and in stituted as a precedent for future Sessions. But ii neither supported by precedent, nor right in peinci ciple, a due expression of the disapprooation of the House should be pronounced. It gas therefore evident, that on a question of this importance, the fullest attendance possible should be procured. — This was scarcely w be expected before the Re- .7 -7 ‘ . ' • • .. . • .• • • - therefore 1 - iiiidd hardl ens, and iy he ftirly de, bated until after that was over. The yarii!iy Lf opinions would naturally be considi•rable. S' in:: Might think that the Speaker had no right to .IJ,irets 'the throne in the manner he diJ at we cl o se a'f I :;,c Session. rpthers might admit the riga/4 bet . oli c ta the niter! of.lns speech, and of the send.Thrll. .: 01*nm - cf....Then to attempt to discuss the subject .withrittidse:fullest attendance would be doing iopts iiceti the ifikaker and to the country. The great . ohjset. ti the Speaker mast tee to have the goes:sort Ar:ileti atter fall•and Jispassionate deliberations.— Ile niirst.tirepeecate any anticipatory discussions, a•id the Noble Lc.rd had adopted the only course which promised eqaal justice to the Speaker and to the plablic.---11r. VIDEit spike in explanation. fire SPEAKER said, I la. pe I may. be allowed -to at eke a a bort obsery ition before I put the Qaesuon. --(4c,f of A:ar, hew ).—I shall _fo.ble...._ll' a. iltlclllt from Qfferiag any thing in j istitication or my c isidnet, because the consideration ut that question is flat no" 'before you—but I am prepared to assure yo.s. that I i feel the most confident persuasion of nentg able to slay this House, that I have in i.o f respesl a-ver transgressed the duties of my office. ' - 7 1 . * ' The Motion was put and carried. A ... • . . MOTION OF THANKS TO THE MARQUIS OF WELLING CON. .. . Lord CASTLEREAGH, in .risiug, in pnesistr,ce of the notice which he had given on this s ub jec t, e alluded to the happy time in which he h.d this pleasant duty to perform, and said that he was sure in calliag the attention of Houselo this cities ion, he was persuaded that no doubt r wi ned in the muds of any of them, that the Battle . 'ttoria, was that' great crisis which decided the quesuOla of the military possessioil of the Peninsula in favour of the Allies:— Since this great event, he might congratulate Parlia ment on a series of successes on the part of the allied armies, which had placed the war in a satiation not less promising in comparison of its former statg than that to which it had been elevated by theVictary of Victoria. In the military annals of modern times there never hos been a train of successes on the thea tre of seat. MOO glorious to the armies engaged— more . gratitykaig . to the nations of Europe, and more promising of ultimate triumph tathe cause than the. events which had firmed the great crisis of the war in the Peninsula ; and he trusted that thevictory at • Leipsic would be followed by events of as decisive an influence on the war in that part of the Continent, as those whi c h had occurred sire the Bo ttle of Vit z . ,toria .had produced as the success of the cause of Spain. • The details of these events, so deep'y graven I on the minds of Englishmen,, would not On any additional lustre by repetition ; but there was one general feature in the present 'state of the war, . , which it was necessary to allude to as of the utmost value;—the transactions since the Battle' of Vitto ria, prove,. mile than all the foiner operations ' of the war,. the perfection to which thq aative troops of the Peninsula have attained—and as the only obi ject of the British Nation, in inter posing tele shield of 'its arms between the n a tions -of the Peninsula and French aggression, 'was t i enable them to prat them- - t selves in a state to fight their °tea agates, so it must Ibe Most gratifying to us tolearn, that 'the great end of our interposition has been answered, and that..the troops of Portugal and .Spain-were in that high state - ot -effectivene,s which justified the 'haste 'Regeat in saying; in the Speech from thi Throne, that itittea. diness and tow aiquerahle Spirit the three nations were • equal. Not odly in battle had thii spirit been •diss played, but in the most arduous duties of the Mili tary prifessi , n—in • the assault of fortresses, and particularly that of St. Sebastian, thaw w h ich 'there was no parallel instance in the: annals of wear, which WAS worthy .of more renown --(flear,•hissr, lsear.)- Fur the arduous duties of storming that• place, the I Portuguese troops were selected, and such was their military- aedonr, that the' battalions who were not or tiered to undertake the duty, begged for a share of ' ' i the danger of the assault. It was a Portuguese bat 'cation,. seconded by another body of their counter. ! men, winch crossed the river and effected the first lodgment in the walls of the town.—(Near,hear.)--, 1 It was most gratifying to 'Great Britain, who had I made such efforts in their cause, that the ita.aps lof both the 'nations of the Peninsula, had ,rri.eLl to this state of effective discipline. When the' eennchil on a late occasion, crossed the river in trona of • i their position s i• *the Spanish troops wrier General Freyre, as it.weres in single combat, drove theta' re- ". • peatedly across theriver, and Lord Wellington :who SAW and admired their bravery, would not Sutler thil I rest of the army to take tr..m themaity part of. 'Weis I glory. From this most desirable state of. things its i in the event of a favourable' occasion, toe aitience I of the Peninsular Nations might be left to their own • I vigorous and disciplined troops, and we must feel I that these na:ions who had contended with to-much I ardour. for their liberty, were now from their m tr i tial spirit, capable of taking charge :if mill own I counniesagainst any hos ile attacks. (1-har, hear.) As to the attacks on St. Sebastian, (fir it was not I one only in which the Portugutse and Spanish troops I were emptiyed), it was ni t necessary to state, that I the nature of the place was such, that it the first did fail, the failure was attended' with no lass of honour. Perhaps no siege was ever more arduous itt any war; and the praise of the conquest was not more due to the valour of the soldiers than to the • skill of that gallant and illustrious. General (Sir 'l'. Graham) who had now,returaed to his native land, after :rasing planted the victorious standard of his country on the French territory.-(Hear, hear.) That General adopted, in the time of utmost need, an ex , petifent which had never before been ventured on, and which was As well executed as conceiied, to which the 'fall of the place was prtiicipaliy to be attributed. - Neither was it necessary to carry the attention of the House. to the ditiiculty of the operations by which the • frontiers of Spain had been secured : perhaps, even in the exteusive.experielice of Lord Wellington were never were operations more arduous. From the ta. : wee of the country the enemy were able to pour into one vallerthe whole preisiire of their numerical supe riority, antknotwithstaatiing.the gallant resistance of the poops : opp'osed to them, were able to penetrate to the neighbourhood of Pamplona.-Wfien the deaciericy s _ Of the military communication between valley and • valley .wassousideted, and the consequent dif.ficult es which the• troops had to surmount,..the ma per is which Lord Wellington combined 'his. forces, after a sales of operations, which occupied no less than sit