Star. — London, England, 1827-03-09 00:00:00

done on former o cations, fully defeed-the system of trade which be had acted upon—.{Cheers). He appre hersded that the question before the House was, as to the principle of the proposed plan, and not as to the details, and he therefore should confine himself to no ticing the arguments which had been adduced for the 'mese of affecting the former. The Hon. Member for E s sex (Mr. Western) had argued that the proposed alteration would prove injurious in consequence of the change which bad been affected in the cur- - rewcy by the Bill of 1819. Now he (Mr. Peel) with the perfect remembrance of having been the origina tor of that measure, must confess that he thought the argument to be derived (torn its operation was akooether in favour of the pan proposed by it's Right Honourable Friend. When the Hon. Member for Essex (Mr. Western) asked them to adhere to the price of 1815, namely, 80s. per quarter for wheat, he would call upon the House to say if such a request could with consistency be perseve red in when the al teration which had taken place in the value of money was remembered?—(Hear, hear!)—Considering the great difference which had taken place, it would be ins. possible that the country should pay 80s. a quarter for corn.—(Hear, hear I)—and he did not understand how any real friend to the Agriculturists could ask fora strict adherence to the prices or to tl.e principles adopted in 1815. The Noble Lord who had proposed a Resolution would not fail to see that by pressing that Resolution, should it be carried, he would de prive the Honourable Member for Suffolk (Sir T. Gooch) of an opportunity of proposing the Amend went he had hinted at. No man was more attached to the Agricultural interest than he (Mr. Peel), and certainly the present was the very last period at which he could by possibility have been induced to con cur in any plan which bethought, or even feared would tend to their injury. It was fresh in his remembrance that the agriculturists had sbewn the greatest anxiety and willingness to relieve the distresses of the manufac terers—(Hear, hear.)—lassead of shewing anything like a feeling of hostility against their rival interests, as it had been called, they bad come forward with the most liberal subscriptions, and through his Majesty's linter no less a sum than 100.0001. bad been collected from them for the relief of the manufactureri—(Hear ) 01111011 i his chief reasons for supporting the proposed Maim was, that it was the best that had been de eimed for enabling the country to 'persevere in impol ite(' the currency. He felt anxious that the Bill whit)* lea bad introduced in 1819 should continue in effect, end he thought the adoption of the plan before the Hduse would give security for its doing so—(Hear). He re garded the system of 1815 as far more likely to produce a run upon the Bank of Eigland,and a scarcity of spe cie, than was the system proposed by his Right Hon. Friend. Let the House remember what would be the consequence of a scarcity. If the price of wheat should, according to the system of 1815, exceed 80s. import*• tion would be free, and who should say that the country would not be inundated to the ultimate prejudice of the aviculturist. and to the great danger of our currency? His Hon. Friend (Sir- T. Gooch) bad used as an argu ment against the proposed plan, that it would cause the importation of foreign corn, while the ships which brought that corn would return in ballast, taking from its bard specie for their article and not any of our Manufactures in exchange. It might be tree that was the case at present. he did not deny that was so, but be maintained that the system now * force bad prevented a- mental interchange from growing up—(Cheers). If corn now reached to such a price as permitted the importation of foreign grain, our demand for corn was of necessity greater than theirs could be for manufactures; and what was the necorsary consequence of that ? Why, that the gold left the country and the state of our currency was en dangered.—(Hear, hear I) The Hon. Member for Essex (Mr. Western) said, that the plan proposed was a mere experiment. He (Mr. Peel) must take the liberty to :Icb deny the soundness of that position. Experience proved that the principle the House was now asked to act upon was a sound one. From the year 1777 to 1784, it had been in practice, for corn was then per• witted to be imported on the payment of certain duties. But it had been argued that the agriculturists had been injured by that measure, because corn -was imported subsequent to its adoption. He maintained, however, that that was a gross fallacy; for if it were not sci, woad it not be equally applicable to inclosure Bills ?—(Hear. hear 1) They introduced a certain portion of corn which would not otherwise have been in the market, and yet the agriculturists had never complained of them as an injury. What was the case then as-to the number of inclosure Bills which had been passed while corn was not permitted to be imported, and while it was permitted to be imported ? By a document o hick had been put into his hand since he had entered the House, it ,appeared that from the Revolution up to the year 1770 (during which time no corn was imported), 690 inclosure Bills only were passed, while from the year 1771 to that of 1815 (during which period corn was admitted) no less than 5,852 inclosure Bills were passed.—(Hear, hear). —An Hon. Member had said, that sufficient inquiry had not been made, and had found fault because an estimate of the prices at which corn could be grown in the different foreign countries had not been laid upon the table of the House. It would be, however, ex ceedingly difficult to obtain such a mutts. and a very little consideration would shew the Hon. Gentleman that if obtained, it would be of very little service. 4t was the price of foreign grain in this country which ought to be taken into consideration. There was in general a m a he, then, the only One disqualified from interfering „ a il the law by the charge of inconsistency ? In the PlBl9 the Hoe. eber for Wareha submitted ar m otion to Parliamen M t, m on the subject o m f the Cora La - tts• The agriculturists were thee considered to bir o d er the influence of Mr. Webbe Hall, who presided o ver the body to whom he had alluded, and who con , gau dy held their sittings near that House. The princi• f l ee and the rates of duties then entertained were such at to him could scarcely be conceived by any sane m i n d, The Government declared that it was not their intention to adopt the mermen recommended; and what w m t hen done? A Committee was moved for, which they m au l ed ; but upon a division they were defeated. A Committee was accordingly appointed. but its labours led to no result. In the next year, 1820, • there was aga in great distress, and then the Government thought i t their duty to acquiesce in an inquiry as to measures v i re lief. A Committee was appointed and sat a long t ime, the consequence of which was, a very elaborate, o d, as he thought, a very able Report. By that Report Os Mir was condemned in principle. although nothing ass done to change it. In 1821 the Committee sat R io, and although they then recommended no imme diate alteration of the law of 1815, they did adopt the &pot t of the former year,which condemned the principle of that law. The Hon. Bart. was a Member of that Com mittee, bat did aot agree to the Report. He (Mr. Robis on) did agree to it, and he therefore apprehended that be was in no inconsistency, *hen in 1827 he acted upon the principles which he declared in 1821. And had nothing been done in the meantime to prepare the landed interest for some alteration? The alteration in the Currency was in itself enough to require some re vision of the law. Since that period, too, they had been *slily occupied in the reduction of taxation. *and no Ins than twelve millions of taxes had been removed.— Why, then if the distress of the farmers was attribut able to taxation, the cause bad been removed to the amount in which those taxes was pressed upon them and their produce. When his Noble Friend complained that taxation was one of the evils which pressed upon I gricaltare, he was surprised to hear his Hon. Friend on the other side tequire the renewal of a tax which had been taken off—the Wool Tax, with a view to re -I;sve agriculture. Now u2on that Wool Tax he wished to make a few observations. b the county in which he lived there had been several Meetings, at which the tar upon wool was discussed, and he had heard a Brut deal about the wisdom of our ancestors on nese occasions. It was hard to say at what period of time those of our ancestors flourished, to whom this re mar k was intended to apply. He bad no doubt that in ' former times people talked of the wisdom of their anon. tots as much as they did now, so that it was very difficult to say where the wisdom was to be found. Now in this case of wool he was happy to say, that he could fix the *wisdom of our ancestors." to be exactly eight yarn old—(Laughter).--in the year 1819, the high duty.os wool was first enacted, and with the understacding that it was to be reduced when it could be dispensed with, ; lot the relief of the manufacture's. Here, then was the wisdom of our ancestors, about which so much had beensaid in this case, and here were they a set of, the finest grown children at eight years old that had ewer teen seen—(Laughing).—The next duty which had been used in the argument was that on timber. Now, if he was sitting with hit Hon. Friend at dinner—an engagement which he assured bins would be more pleasant to his feelinfalrn their present one— ( 4 laugh) —he would ask his Friend whether be really knew 1 whit the nature Of this duty on timber was? He would ' a.k him whether he knew when it was imposed, whys it was increased, and what was its present amount?— If Gentlemen would give themselves the trouble to in. ham their own minds upon such subjects rather than take every thing they beard upon trust, he was sure they would save themselves from much trouble and still more error. The duty on timber was a little older than the wool tax, and not much. It was enacted in 1807, and was to end with the war, and not be stood in the way in 1815. In 1822 the duty was altered—and bow? By the inconsiderate speculative rashness of the Government? No; but by the recommendation of a Committee, after the fullest inquiry into the sub ject. His Noble Friend (Lord Clive) had 'urged the Necessity Lf protecting Agriculture. The Government did not dispute it. They. on the contrary, chewed by this measure that they believed and meant that Agri. echo, should be protected—.not, indeed, with a partial rive to the interests of one class alone, but as much for the sake of those who consumed as those who pro duced. The only difference between him and his Noble Friend was, as to which was the best protection, duty or prohibition. Now it was clearly shewn by the Hon. Member for Winchelsea, that an ascending scale of duties sun at some point or other involve a prohibition. He entirely coocursed in the opinion, that the law of 1815 had prodoced all the injurious effects which had been charged upon it. Why should he wish to change that law if he old not thirat it injurious to the landed interest, as well as to the community at large ? He was a landed Gentleman himself ; his connections would be nothing but for the land; and why should be be suspected of a wish to cut his own throat? He supported thee mea sure because he thought it would be good for them and for allelasses of t! . .e country. He could not conceive why the agricultutists should hug the present law to their bosom as a darling. Had there been no agricul tural prosperity in this country before the year 1815? Be was anxious to go back to the principles under which agriculture long flourished, and from which he heartily wished - had never departed. Of r meant if it was not a chan g e i n t h e s t an d ar d o f va l ue. and to that he would never consent. As haw as he eentinued in the Government he hoped no such question would ever be entertained. His Hon. Friend had said that what he sought was something that would ensure a certainty in price. That, be was ready to admit, was a most desirable object. His Right Hon. Friend well represented the other night, how little of certainty had existed under the present law, when he showed that the fluctuations in one year were from 112 s. to 38s. He would net say that he expected certainty from the system they now proposed; but as near as the natural variations of the seasons would allow them to bring prices to a certainty, he thought that system would do it. This, they said, their measure was calcu lated to do. while the one for which they proposed it as a substitute, acted in a manner diametrically the reverse. They were told that the agriculturists were overwhelmed with dismay at the measure. He believed no such thing. He had received letters from different parts of the country, in which, although dif fering upon some of the details, persons of large landed property and interest gave their most unqualified ap probation to its principles. He would quote one in stance in which such an opinion had been expressed to him. The letter was from the Agricultural Society at Lewes. the President of which was Mr. Ellman, a strong agriculturist, but a well-informed. intelligent man.— This letter stated that they were perfectly satisfied with the principle of the measure, but proposed an alteration in the amount cf duty. He had no doubt but that many persons would be alarmed at the change.-- Since he had been in office, it had been his lot to catty into effect many alterations of duties, in not one of which did he fail to have a great number of doleful complaints," in which the parties all de. clued they Must be ruined; and in no one instance, he believed, had those dreary apprehensions been realised. When the Bill for introducing Canada Corn was brought forward—and that was a measure which had chiefly for its object a great act of justice and expe diency, in recognising his Majesty's subjects in Canada, in extending a token of regard to them, and in cement ing the Union bet Ween us and our Colonies in that ince, resting portion of the Globe--that Bill was opposed as being sure to inundate the country with corn ; to bring in floods not Only from Canada, but from the United States. It was opposed in that -House; but in the other House—there terror took her seat, and never were any good people so frightened.. They were afraid to take this first step, and threw oat the Bill.— It was afterwards so altered as to allay some of their fears, and then carried ; and the consequence was, that in the first year some seventy or eighty thousand quar. ten of wheat were imported from Canada, and in the next no more than thirty thousand quarters. He was convinced that whatever fears might be enter tained in respect to the present measure, that they would ultimately prove no less chimerical. He trusted the House would see the question in the same light; for, if be followed the course recommended by the Noble Lord and his Honourable Friend, they would do that which must re-produce and keep alive the causes of distress to the agriculturist, and inflict still greater suf fering on the mass of the people, on whose behalf he there stood up, because he would rather abandon his own pretensions to consistency, than a coarse which he was honestly convinced was for their good—(Cheat). Mr. WESTERN said, that the Noble Lord at the head or the Ministry in 1822, told him that the object of the measures of 1822, was by extending the circa. lating medium to raise the price of corn. Those men. . wares answered their intended purpose, and in 1824 the price of corn was advanced to as to place the agricul turist in an improved condition, and in 1825, the Right 'Hon. Chancellor of the Exchequer came down with his 'celebrated prosperity speech, and stated that all clams 'Of his Majesty's subjects were in a state of happiness bad prosperity unexampled in the history of the country. Corn was then at from 675. to 68s. a qr.—(Hear.) Now the Government came down with a measure to prevent corn from ever rising again to that price under which such prosperity had been supported. The object of this measure was to keep corn at 555. He would tell the Government, that at that price agriculture must decline, manufactures must decline, the revenue must 'decline. The country could not go on under such a measure. The manufacturers were not consumers only, they were sellers ; and if they bought cheap, they must sell their manufactures cheap. He thought the Act of 1815 was intended at the time to be a permanent, and not an experimental measure. If he had not thought that the Government meant it to be so, he would not have given them his support. The Right Hon. Gen damn might have changed his opinion since then. but be had not changed his. The Act of 1922 was passed after a greater degree of attention having been paid to the subject by the Noble Lord then at the bead of the Government than ever had been given to it by any other Minister, or ever would be again. The Noble Lord attended all the investigations of Committees, and brought to the subject all the great talents which he unquestionably possessed. What was now to become of that Act? It was impossible that the country cuuld be sustained under a return to prices such as existed anterior to the war, while the expenditure was so infinitely greater. These were the opinions main tained in the years 1814 and 1815, by the Right Honourable Gentlemen opposite, who were now the parents of this measure. The Act of 1815 was recom. mended to the House on behalf of the whole coming. nity by the Right Hon. Gentleman, and the then Chancellor of the Exchequer. He (Mr. Western) as .. cial capital, and the propensity to speculate in this doontry, be thought the system now proposed would open a field for a c onstant ser i e . o f j o bbi ng , w hi c h must open lender price one eternal fluctuation. If the price ever tame to sixty, foreign corn would come freely into the market, and the British grower would be shot out. If h th a evinganged Chancellor a of the Exchequer were pa r do ne d f or his opinions, he hoped he might also look for pardon for maintaining his; and he should now chew that he did ;paint/in them, by refusing to vote for the Speaker leaving the Chair. Sir T. GOOCH said, that although he was the repre. sentative of a great agricultural district, he should always view the measures of that House in relation to the general interests of the country. There was no ques tion upon which the interests of the country more inti• tamely depended than upon the Corn Laws, and the subject ought to be approached with the utmost care and caution. Looking at the piles of Petitions from the many hundred thousand manufacturers suffering under extreme distress, the Government would not have done its duty if it bad not brought forward the present mea sure. In 1821, when the table of the House was groan ing under the weight of Petitions from the agricultural interests, no man grumbled more than he did at their not receiving proper attention from Ministers. The manu facturers had been taught to believe that their distresses arose from the Corn La ws,and Miniuerswere placed in a difficult situation. These distresses had never, in his opi nion, arisen from anything of the sort. Every market was overstocked with manufactured goods; a child of ten years of age could now do what an adult could for pmerly achieve with his inferior Machinery. This was the reason why the manufacture's were thrown out of employment, and were in distres'. Unless a new mar ket could be found for our goods, the manufacturers most continue to starve. The Corn Laws would not give the agriculturist that protection which the other classes imagine. Sixty shillings a quarter was to be taken as an average • but the farmer who sold his corn for the gross sum o f sixty shillings in Mark-lane. must pay its carriage. warehouse room, and other charges, which would make thereat price of sale to him only 565. The House and country were ignorant of the price at which foreign ports could ship corn to England. Neither Mr. Jacob's Report, nor the Returns from the Consuls, -afforded a just criterion. Poland had many thousand acres thrown out of cultivation, and which would be again productive of corn, if a demand were to be created in this country for it. This would enable Poland—and other countries were in a similar predicament —to lower the price of corn beyond what Government contemplat- Aa. The rise in the price of wheat, within the last half century. was only SO per cent. In the same po. rind, the Poor Rates, and all parish charges, bad in creased at least 200 per cent. Wheat was even now lower in proportion thin other articles. England could feed its population. The sure way to produce famine in the country, was to depress the agricultural inte rests. He would confess that these was a very great difference of opinion amongst his agricultural constituents as to thepresent measure. Many of them had declared themselves perfectly satisfied with the present measure. • He would beg the House to consider that the system of introducing foreign corn would have the effect of sending gold out of the country. He had known many ships to bring corn to England and to return in ballast. Ls the Committee he should propose a higher I daty upon the inferior sorts of corn . He should also I propose* higher pivot than 80e. He thought k ought i l to be 645. Mr. WARD did not agree with many opinions he had heard on this subject, but he considered that the present resolutions were an improvement on the existing system, and he should therefore support them. He differed from the Noble Lord, that, in twenty months hence, a derangement of the currency would be the consequence of this meisure. Judging from the past, be thought, on the contrary, that in twenty-two months the state of the currency would be much better than it now was. The present law was much more calculated to affect the currency injuriously than the proposed re solutions. He deprecated any departure from the prin ciple upon which the currency was settled in 1819. The embarrassments of the country did not spring out of that measure, but out of the contraction of their issues by the country bankers. He was friendly to free trade in all things. By free trade, he meant trade without incumbraoce. We had departed from it during the war, from necessity, from accident, from political causes; but now that we were in a state of profound peace, we should approximate as closely as possible to the principles from which circumstances had compelled us to depart. His constituents asked nothing more than this, and in this prayer he should always sup port them. Mr. Secretary PEEL said, he should not have risen to address the House on the question before it, had be not been personally alluded to by his Hon. Friend (Sir E. Knatchbull), the Member for Kent. He was proud of the compliment which that Hon. Baronet had been pleased to pay him for the alterations he had ventured to propose in the Criminal Jurisprudence of the country. His Hon. Friend however had accompanied that cone. pliment by a wish that the measure then before the House had been introduced with as much caution and only after as much inquiry as he (Mr. Peel) had made before he submitted his propositions respecting the' Criminal Laws. But in reply to that wish, bp would call the attention of the Hon. Baronet to the simple fact, that the alterations which he had suggested in the Criminal Laws could be carried into effect at any pe riod; whereas such questions as that before the House -say they . _ , ,a; .. q..,.. .n gen... the Petitioners who had come before the House, one seated to th e principles up - on which 'that measure was could be taken into consideration, with real and lasting very great difhtence between the price in London and patty had prayed for the repeal of the Corn Laws, and founded and carried, and he saw no reason to change benefit, only at particular periods. The present time the price, for instance, at Dantzic. In 1795, there was a another that they mi g ht b e co nti n ued without alteration. them. He could s h e w from Mr. Jacob's Report, and appeare d to hi m most fir, an d th e quest i on was one difference of 20s. Id. and if to that were added the et. Other s, and as he thought them the wisest, had prayed from the returns of his Majesty's Consuls, that although that should not be left to the day of dearth or famine. He penses of freightage; kc. and the duties proposed by the that in dealing with those laws, the House would look great fluctuations did take place under that Bill, yet must also assure the Hon. Baronet and the House, that Resolutions, it would be inmossibleeven to suppose that with a careful regard to all the various interests con- that still greater ones occurred at the same time in all if any blame was to be attached to the proposed altera- any injury would be sustained, in consequence of its cerned. But as the question stood, with complaints other countries except France, where the restrictive sys. tions, he was prepared to take his full share of such adoption, by the British grower—(Hear, hear).—But if continually made cf the value of property being onset- tem was still more closely observed. In 1817, the floc. censure, for the plan submitted to the House by his bad effects would result from the proposed alteration 'led, and all transactions of rent and leases suspended, tuations in this country were from 925. to 4Ss. in Berlin Ri g h t Hon. F r iend bad his most cordial approbation being carried into effect, why did they not take place ;he Government would have been shrinking from their they were from 6.55. 10d. to 255. 4d. in Warsaw and --(Hear, hear).— He would go further, and take that in consequence of the Act of 1806, which opened the duty, if they had not come forward with measures for Prague from 51s. to ISt. in Cracow from 575. to opportunity of stating, that had the lamented indisposi- British ports to Irish corn ?—(Hear). Previous to the 11 , c consideration and s anction of th e Hou s e; The Hon. 13s. sd. in Dantzic from 90s. to 225. in Vienna Lion of his Right Honourable Friend continued, and his passing of that Act, cora from Ireland was admitted Baronet had said this was not the time, because-the cur- from 112 s. to 17s. in Munich from 120 s. to 255. (the colleagues bad thought it right, he should have been only on the payment of a very high duty, but that mea tency was not settled. Why he (Mr. Robinson) thought fluctuation at Frankf or t we cou ld not hear); in Ham- ready and anxious to bring forward the plan which had sure had produced no injurious results. The British the currency was settled. He thought that his Right burgh from 81s. 9d. to 21s. in France from Bs. been so ably introduced by his Right Hon. Friend, not grower had found no occasion to complain, though Hon. Friend had passed a Bill in the year 1819, re- 4d. per bushel, to 4s. 3d. Thus it was unfair to charge with mere official dryness, but with that interest and Whom' was low priced io behead, and the land was storing the currency to the state in which it was pre- these fluctuations upon the l a w, w h en it was cle a r that seal which would have proved, at least, that it bad his richer. Bad effects had been feared, but they had never • 'iota to the suspension of cash payments. The House, other causes, extending themselves to all other Coun- h ear ty concurrence—(Cheers).--He thought it right to taken place. He was most decidedly of opinion that the too, last year p a ssed another Act hastening the period tries, must have influenced them. Those who advocated make that remark; and he could not avoid adding chief effect of the measure before the House would be at which the resumption of cash payments should be a free trade in Corn overlooked the danger and impossi- that, in his opinion, never had a public man been dealt to produce something like a regularity in the prices, completed. He did not know, theor what this settle- bility of that course. They took no notice of the fact. snore hardly by them than his Right Honourable and if it should (as he believed it would) caw 'ltem of the currency meant. He suspected that that we must be left to depend upon the caprice of F r iend the President of the Board of Trade—(Heat)— to vary in no greater a degree than from ire real meaning was an alteration of the standard.— foreigners, and in time of war to the hostility of an He regretted the absence of his Right Hon. Friend, and that circumstance would in itself render They had heard much of the connection of these two enemy; that we enabled our enemies to refuse subsist• he still more regretted the cause of that absence; highly desirable—(Hear, hear.)—lt would questions of corn and currency, and of what was called ence to our starving people, and to shut our manufae. but he trusted the time would, soon arrive when be effect of giving a steadiness to the value of 5 " equitable adjustment. He knew not what this lures out of the market. Looking at the state of corn- world resume his place in that Howe; and, as he had petty, and would be one of the greatest • ' 1 ; • f: ( cause . dieni 5.55. to 655. its adoption ld halm the t landed pro- boon to titer