Star. — London, England, 1812-01-24 00:00:00

i eluded frr m that single instance, what abuses existed in the Ecclesiastical Court. For his part he had been quite ignorant of the powers exercised by this Court, and he never imagined that any case of oppression , could occur wider it, which had not a legal regnlar remedy in some one or other of the Courts of Justice. It.never appealed possible to him that any case of hardship could ever happen, for which the person ag grie'vrd had not, if he pleased, legal redress. lie was, however, mistakes—for, inquiring into this bu- • siness, he found that such cases not only cs rid, but _ did frequently occur ; and the one on which he had the honour of fixing the attention of the House, was not the least worthy of their commiseration. It was because he thus found that abuses existed in the Ecchs siastical Courts, which had elsewhere no remedy, that he was induced to extend his motion beyond the .par ticular case of the petitioner—and lest the House should think that he did not submit sufficient reasons for this extension of it, he begged to state the origin and history of the Ecclesi.sst.cal Jurisdiction in this country, and its state at present. In tracing the Ec clesiastical Jurisdiction to its origin, the Noble Lord stid not think it necessary to go higher than the time immediately preceding the conquest. At that early periDd of car history, the Ecclesiastical and Tempo -"al 'power went hand in hand. The Bishops and Ba tons sat in the same hundreds and councils toge ther. William the Conqueror, however, no sooner had the power, than he separated the spiritual and temporal jurisdictionsfrt m one another. Whether that Monarch `thus ac ed from theluve of adopting the fashions of his 'awn cocntiv, as mentioned in the old Chronicles of Henry the iirst, or whether he wished to get rid of the Trial by Jury, that valuable remnant of ancient 'Gothic jurisprudence, he would not attempt to decide certain it was, that the first difference between the spiritual and temporal jurisdiction was established by 'William the First. It was he that laid the foun dation sf that power which afterwards rose to such enormous and fearful magnitude—and he was con fident that in thus stating the origin of the eccle siastical jurisdiction of which he now complained, - rf the House difficulty and intricacy, and requiring in those who hut not being able to procure any information re- ,to their decision by the country. The N ook T _ i .ewl were entrusted with their administration great learn- sliming the manner in which this compliance was to ' had only quoted two cases for church rates. pe en must ing and experience ; but persons very de fi cient in be carried into effect, and her submission being in be compelled to pay those church rates as well as et e e those qualities were very enerally appointed to the consequence delayed, she was declared contumacious things, arid if they refuse to appear on the citatie eef highest offices connected with them. There were un- for not submitting to the calls of the Holy Church. the Court, they must be compelled to it. T h ., per. doubte.dlymauyexceptions,andecttheleast prominent The method of proceeding in defamatory causes was son who drew up these papers of the Noble Lord see were, an Hon. Friend of hi s opposite and a Learned Rho a matter that should not be passed over without very probably an uneucerssful Proctor, and the & L e h Doctor who W4s not new p res e n t ; but he would consideration ; it gave, in his opinion, too much op- Lord had been extremely unfortunate its the coe se , repeat it, the persons gene ra lly appointed were to. porturrity for the gratification of such mean passions under which he sailed. The Court, he said, w esetri t tally unfit for the situations in which they were as malice and revenge. He instanced the case of a wrong in compelling this woman to appear, th eeee placed, and for the filling of which they were obliged Jew woman, condemned in one of those Ceurts, wire a minor. - The circumstances that follow upon 4; .te obtain such a capability as an Oxford degree could not hajing the fear of GOD and her holy mother, the victiOn of defamation were not so shoclingas th e , b ad confer. The nature of the punishment inflicted in church, [a laugh] before her eyes, was treated with been represented. The party appears not perf oreeet those Courts, was .mother object which should not be all Christian severity. Another woman, a notorious Fenance in a white sheet, as had been forreedy e e left cut of consideration upon this occasion. Those bad character, named Norris, who even kept a house custom, but merely to beg pardon, and promis e T e e . Courts have only one mode of punishment, and that of sinful resort, had the effrontery to complain of de- motion. He had frequently known the peace i e ‘, mode subjecting the persons upon whom it is visited famation and apply to these Courts to help her cha- milies to be disturbed by secret calumny or Op % with so many severe and heavy privations, that if . ractef. He should not trouble the House any longer abuse, and he thought it better that such A ke , there were no other motive fir inquiring into the I with a tedious detail of obscure names, but offer his should be punished in this manner, than that p ee matter, this alone should be sufficient. The punish- I •motion, which should be a very comprehensive one. pie should have recourse to modes of puniehment 0 ment was excommunication. When we consider Since the time of the Reformation nothing had been their own contrivance. A great outer yhad been rais - e d the persons presiding in these Cours, the want of done towards the regulations proposed by Crammer against the expence of proceedings in such Court s , education in many of them for the proper discharge at that period, nor those that in a subsequent day, but the costs were only twenty uhdlings, and in cue of the duties they undertake ; their total want of ac- •at the Revolution, had been intended, but redvsT of poverty, the law had made a previeen, they to quaintance with that branch of law, which sh mold carried into effect. The Noble Lord then read the sue informs paurerir, and if not willing to do so, te e , guide decision in such Courts, and the nature of the following motion : should be considered litigants. ll here had toeseeee. matter that comes under their control; we must con. I " That a Committee be appointed to enquire Into the state of tinued the Honourable Gentleman, a great ou tey elude that such jurisdiction ought not to be intrusted the inferior Courts of Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction he this coeuery, raised concerning the expences incurred in thee:e we to such persons. There were many other circum- and to consider if any reformation was ince stances respecting tlicee Courts which required regn. re p ort the same to the House." ssary therein; and to These expences depended on the length of the pre 'eccedings, and the temeer of the parties. The caseep lotion, and very close investigation. The charges Mr. HERBERT thought that the Noble Lord the obstinacy of the defending party, was often per. attendant upon persons convicted in them, imposed should have distinguished between the state of the sued to excommunicatior, and then, perhaps, it tea & such a burthen on the persons so convicted, as to be altogether int. lerable, and frequently drive them to law and the administration c f it. One great objee. course throug h several other Courts, all occasinceeg tion was, the expences persons were subjected to by espenees to the formidable amount complaineed,_ the greatest distress. If a person be attached for the proceedings in such Courts ; and he die not mean But such was the formation of those laws, which ruled contempt in the Court of Chancery, only a charge of to say that some remedy to this inconvenience should the Ectlesisstical Court, that the fruit lay übt O l e * , nineteen shillings is incurred, whilst in the other not be adopted :it could not, however, be effected by mode of their administration. He hoped he had s e it is £l2. A woman, named Robertson, being the inquiry proposed. '1 he evil arises out of the great ' ready said t noligh to convince the House, tliat th e summoned before the Ecclesiastical Court of Bris. :bad with which the common law of this country • Noble Lord had not be e n s u ff i cientl y p ow eriel asap. tol, and not appearing to this citation, she was ex- :bad always regarded ecclesiastical jurisdiction of porting his motion with those strong proofs 'recency communicated and imprisoned. The consequences every ki n d. H a d t h ese C ourts t h e aut h or i ty to en - to ma ke the House accede to his rnotiosa, aloe d e attending excommunication are many and severe.— force appearance, the expences would be much 'Noble Lord had collected , with the most mali The person subjected to a sentence of this kind, is gn = smaller. The process is, after the excommunication, , industry, (not his own he was assured) all the case s cut off from all communication with the faithful, to ma k e i t k nown to t h e C ourt o f Chancery, f t om I which he considered powerful. The House woe Id tbli le et , • _ that the whole e both of .1 • ( i he was not enlisting the prepossessions ot the . ._ and declared a heathen and a publican ;he cannot , which the writ de excommunicato is issued. This pre- ' ensible . the whole expences, ptoperty sad in its favour. The origin, in fact, of this separate , act as a juror or an advocate; his punishment even cess increases the costs, and renders the punishment person, .s et „ were occasioned by the panics:themselves: T . ecclesiastical jurisdiction was in the effort of a success- went beyond death, and denied him Christian bu- very inadequate to the original offence. The law in sisting those laws to which all renks stood amenetee. tul invader ot this country to put down its ancient rial. This Mrs. Robertson, after being put to the. this respect certainly admitted of improvement ; but Under such a view of the subject as had been takes, civil institutions. The clergy having once obtained expense of eel 1 or £l2, was released from confine- the appointment of the Committee would not tend to he hoped the House would not consent to saddle ia power, knew how to improve it—and ef course, in ment , b ut no t f ro m the senteece of excommunica- reme d y t h e gr i evance. Th ere was one c i rcumst a nce self walla most extensive and treublesome inquiry, the succeeding reigns of William 11. Henry I. and don. There wis rather a singular circumstance in to which his Noble Friend had alluded, which was which would only tend to disarrange and discreet the 'Stephen, their jurisdiction was established and con- her case, to which he could not help drawing the the kingdom, without pie of the utmost importance; that is, the persons em- severe' Courts throughout ' s finned. lii the reign cf Henryll. a contest er e se mating any essential good. No system less oppressive, e . attention of the Heuse. 'Phe records of Bristol ployeul in those Courts. By the 127th Canon, no rho was a. man by no means were carefully searched for a copy of the writ which person could be appointed a Commissary or a Chan- I less expensive, and of a less repulsive cast, in the ee .stical encroachments, and the warranted her commitment to prison ; but after very cellar unless he was of the full age e f 2(i, and learned metal me style of its application to all ranks, could le :bury,' Thomas a Bscket ; the diligent search, no such instrun:ent could be dis ruggle, however, was, that 1.;:e covered. She was confined, not in the jail of in the lap s. In 1603 and 1615, Petitions were pre. easily framed in its stead. scnted to the Throne, complaining that per sons ig- Sir S. ROMILLY declared, that the argument; s victorious. It streneolrened, Bristol, but in that of the County of Gloucester.— norant of the law, and unfit for such places, were, he had been listening to from the last Hon. Gentle 'eig e raised nof Rich. 11. his successor, An eisure was evident on the face of the writ, sub- to ecclesiastical jurisdiction. In consequence man, were far from convincing him of the propriety ig John it was at such a height stitutiag /he Sheriff of Gloucester . for the Sherd of of the-se Petitions, the son-in-law of the Bishop of of rejecting the inquiry proposed by the Nob:c Lord. Landaff was dismissed from his situation It was not bliged to take off his Crown, Bristol. This, though in rererence to the poor wo- , easy to remedy this evil. Persons having the dispo- The Honourable Geotlemarr seemed to terrify him. mat doing realty to thel3ishon m a n, singly may be a matter of little importance, self with the apparent immensity of the inquiry, and : Lord then traced the power was, however, in so far as it affected the liberty of believed that the Committee was to proceed to eta. sal of situations of this kind, are inclined to give them erurt, from John doe nto Ed. the subject generally, not at ell to be treated lightly, to their friends or relations. He did not think that mine the abuses they might find in all the ado ich time many attemets were This woman, rifler being ccntincd for the space of siastical Courts throughout the kingdom. The a Committee could be of any use. It was notorious end, from the struggles made ow or three years, was, at length, liberated by clia- that persons without any knowledge, would indeed be a most extensive duty ; but all that :tits, one thing was evidently ritable contribution. There was another case, of John profane, were promoted to such places. either sacred or was required of the proposed Committee was, to make . it never atm:rig-mated 'Kinsey Williams, who, on the citation of the Consistorial ; Mr. GRENFELL said, that he had made some inquiry into the merit, of the particular cases agitated is people, even in those times Cour , not appearing for the purpose of paying into inquiry into this business, and understood the Surro- before the House of Commons, and then, acre it :he principles of rreedoar were. that Court the sum of les. was, In consequence, pie gates had minutely investigated the cr induct of the sound necessary, to promote the inquiry throughout :ood. In the mien of , Edward to expellees which amounted to 4.2 e. The man was the kinl si dem. But the Hon. Gentleman had called cause, and had declared that all the proceedings were tied, limiting the right at appeal extremely poor, and must, of course, have been on the Noble Lord, to produce a c .se Awe strop . ; re. Uraier Henry lee the king brought to utter ruin by the payment of a sum I regular ; and that as to the prisoner being a mini r, from the centurnecy shown by not appearing to the citation, it was imposeble the Court should know any and evident wrong had been susts'e•ed ; no • per cite wainst the Pate:amen: ; but at which, with respect to hint, was melting less then was necessary ; the complaints were made in met terrines of the reformation up- enormous. A man, named Robins, for non-pay- • of extreme hardship, and the qaestion became on teing of it. If she had appeared and pleaded mine.. rf the\Vieelifrites and Isolards; ' msnt of tithes, not amounting to lus• was imprisoned,. • rite, the Court could then have determined on it ; but the acknowledged existence of inch cases, whethir I. much ewe tion was made 10 am) obliged to pay, bee re his liberation, tee suer et .as the matter stood, they knew nothing about ie an inquiry was required into their origin. The whole :he Church. It was in the reigns sE2S. He had put his case in:o the hands of a Proc- i S:r WILLIAM SCOTT opposed the motion.— appeered to him to arise from the error of thesiunds. 0 b oner of this great power tor, but his l'roctos nut appear n .He did not entertain the smallest do On th it the free, he was declared • mental establishment. With all the *tersictence et. ited that a st.ttun seas passed, contumacious, and the man was sent to prison. Thi, i Noble Lord, in bringing forward this subject, was pressed by the Honourable Gentlem in for the a mend. v, under Priests and Deacons, case he drought was exseedingly hard , and called for actuated by motives that were iv pourable both to ment of those laws, yet he has dropped as much in to the Temporal C ourts . This sonic interference that may sty p proceedings of s' per- his speech as sheaved that lie deemed an inquiry - ine s his understanding and to his heart ; but the Noble lt opposition, that its operation I secuting a nature. Thomas Lewes was another person Lord was not, perhaps, are are r f *teatsthe ace of ! inquiry which his motion wo u ld cover,the subject not altogether unnecessary. It lad leee nor apprised pass ng of it to the beginning excommunicated for contumacy. He was a pauper, I ' been a subject of complaint from all corners of the of the vast extent to which it would break down the and the Dean of Winchester, in and could not write his name ; but through a default ! kingdom, and had never received any alteration from -tied a sermon age ns it at St- which Iris ignorance might have excused, he was established regulations of a country. It was neces- 'so remote a period as the reformation. Let Gentle els wrote a boek for the same thrown into Jail, where he lay for upwards of three b eret 0 p aus e before an inquiry should be entered upon, • men but look at the mode of proceeding, let theta ,fextrects from the canon law ; y e ars. He would leave it to the House. whether cases and if entered upon, the utmost delicacy should guide behold the poor object of Ecclesiastical censurer! . :d, that all clergymen should be of this kind did not present a too severe exertion of . the persons who se ould take upon them to torn: any posed to injury, never to be redresse '. See, foret irissliction of tee civil law. This power, and prove such vexatious extent of jurisdic - plan upon the result of such inquiry. In estimating stance, .the youug creeture mentioned in the Penury esainst the nonweedence of the won in these inferior Courts, as demanded ti:e inter- ,1 ' fput produced by the Noble Lord, thrown into jail with b the propriety of entering • open it, re cone not acted almost immediately alter ference of the Legislature, or whether criminarity of ' out of calculation the necessity that week' :vise of all the incapacities of excommunication upon her : Parliament was now led to in- this kind was not chastised with Leo severe a hand ?.-- bringieg up persons in proof of the various cases ' amen a crew of wretches sentenced for, or accused es alto nes, and the Act with re- T :natter The charges in these Courts being quite a ot whic h s ine Noble Lord had alluded to in his very able of the vilest of atrocities: "did they offer her as 0. was tee result. During the pros uncertainty, sometimes greater, sometimes less, uas and very historical speech. He would not attempt jury, she could riot bear evidence against them, dal .ion, the necessity of repressing another object for consideration. It was a very heavy b • acme*, to helots( the Noble Lord into the regions of dark they commit it ; her evidence could not c lesiesticel Courts becerne °by's grievance. In these Cuur:s the real substantial pu- history where he had so long wandered a Lour ; or would any one of them, a case nowise trimmer' in, consisting o f ee p ers ons, was nishment was the costs, which clearly operated as la but from all his history, whether ancient ( or modeyn, , commit murder in her presence, the murderer 4 1 Lode for teeir future Govern- fine. Another person, at Blister], had to pay kil) P2s. lie could not collect motives sufficient to brin rsea- o. grey haired to his glees:, unaffected and 00 Crannier embarked zealously in One man was obliged to pay £ 2 7 fur niniself , and shin to his mind of the necessity of this inotur. 'Pile Jested by the testimony of the pis-wen-01M eder to she w the necessity of a weer for his wile. And there was another who, though Noble Lord had end e avo ure d to be pathetic, in his. sbear.)--Such was the mode of Spiritual COM+ abstract of the canons then in -. a pauper; had the sum of £36 heaped upon him.— allusion to those cases where the citation of Ecclesiass ' which no man could consider mahout being sirodol attention of the Public and of The ostensible object of there Courts was the correc- tical Courts was not attended to, and it was true that impressed with the propriety of Reform. On the . sd• the feet, that there Was a book thin of morals; but the c, es, aird nut the improve- some of their proceedings . might wear thesappear- jest Of excommunication, the Learned-Did opthei . rl e steely and educate,n . i n the coon- latent of morals, were clearly the tuing sought for in ance of severity ; but it was no less true, that every-. nAsi•compleined in his wrifiegs ; arld'in the days . 1 aire,y h , s tils to its b es t intaost . s, : proceeainge of this kind. Commutation of penance Court should support that degree of respect with , the licentious Charles it would appear on the boots re wady of tins book • that the ins as formerly the great subject of complaiet 2g:sliesthis Meect , out which its jurisdiction will be disregarded.—But of the House of' Lords, dated 1666, that ._ s s resiestwel Courts we-re framed.— ' Ecclesiastical Courts; and this, thoueli not oeenty even in support of that respect he would not be the informed the House, by one of the Bishops, IDA . I I tier brought :tessera b ) cramiler, declared, was, he thought, stet practised, vatually advocate of a treatment unnecessarily severe, and had hearkened to complaints concerting the 111 0 d i e rs rd VI. and erraneenrerits Were , at least, in theCottrts which he intended to make the', .he believed be could exculpate such Courts from the excommunication, and expressed a wish that ► ?et H :e to repress the evil, but they, object of his motion. These Courts seemed to act charge of wantonly exerting the authority they pos. would consider it only as applicable to deeds et sr . never completed ; nee of his chief i upon the isle,' of Sir\Vm. Blackstone, that poverty is seise d . Th e Courts of the present time were not aggr mated nature. Several of the Lords vete Sii-in of that power of exeonuntt- the best medicine pro sa s ew „,e,,,e. •I'o she, that nun- connected with those t o w hi c h the Noble Lord bad tested to prepare such a Bill , but i t WAS neverdo ' green birth to the present WM. hey, not correction of 'newels, was tie object attend referred them in his s p eec h. Th e y grew out o f t h e heard of. ++ Oh! but," cried the Hon. Gad esol ee • reign e f Elizabeth nothing had ed to, it was enough to mention, that upon payment R e f ormat i on, and the object of their establishment umphently, is that law had never been cemr.ei gar' s _ airy, with respect to the subject, o f c osts, tine penance is always omitted. In the coup- was n ot m ere ly Aro salute ani m4 , they were also vested True, because that law fell alone o n p :mons dIP High Cc•mrnistion Court, which ! try pens nu absolution is pubihed, but the party is with temporal jurisdiction, small neither in degree lowest class:s of society. Why del ere the r!!!!; ig a period to encroach on the lis , immediately discharged upon depositing the costs nor in utility ; they decided on testamental laws, and tion of a woman of rank and fishy rn .tandaire•ura t ; but it required all the activity incurred. Mary Anne Dicks, the person whose pe- in many eases in which civil rights were concern- the gross slander which another of -•qual rtire . dehl , 11 tile p'npulaiity cf the Queen, to tition he had presented to the House, though she had ed. He did not mean to assert that this was on it ? the reason was, that she used a coil-1 11 . 1. nt. aleth arose from tins neglect. ' suffieient proof in the severity with which . two of the wise, and, perhaps, in a new arrangement of things, honourable style, under which she screole l r: ling eittcted into a dhpute ss oh a same town were treated, thee the jurisdiction oftliese such a mixed jurisdiction should not be left in them; equally as gross as those that held an uneolier.edrh (ere, tee consequeneo was, a regu- Courts was exerted in a manner . peculiarly severe, but it had now stood for centuries, and he would man up as a mark to punist ment. Let th.n3 look '' Ampton C,,utt, bur - which was not refused compliance with their injunctions. At the not willingly disturb that which had existed in old the petition on which the le (wen moires (i 5 . 1 °7_ 'he Ecelesidstieel Commission was time of such refusal she was a minor, and it was clear times, and WAS made reverend by its antiquity.-.- ded. A woman, wino kept a hove of ill fame,Z,. nof denies tine Sectush but with that under the cool laws, a minor wets not amenable The Noble Lord had not offered such presumetne wares a person, ene' . 'mines hal to he tic'', 3 ;old the exert:, ns of a Commis- to these Courts. Such Courts were the creatures ut ground as may warrant inquiry. He had not given nicated, merely because the accused :led nestosseel Wel:am the Third, were cone- civil law, anti of course, their jurisdiction, its extent, such ground as could warrant a suspicion of serious het a proper eithilet• ( Near.) It would be e e hr: i i the zeal and act , vas en the High and mode ot exertion, should be referred to that abuses. Some abuses, it was true, may exist; they fortunate eirctensouice .t the No rle Lord could us sies) :statutes pressed ; the one in scrum:. Teere were cases in which it viaa decided were inseparable from every human institution . Up As pr. V ntul assistant in tire keigir, ,Hoe. Genu7,_ the Second, the otter in that of that a minor was not liable to costs, even when the to the year 1799, for the space of SO yea's, only seven (Sir \V.. Scott ). Hew.l.` au all power' ul e et vh_ h fiv : ,whiele u ere also band nugatory. charge vasof so enormous a nature as cruelty to his cases could be produced that could give any reason to and could pour in with afl ere' a efinistetielt uP"' was atti 0 much to affirm, that wife end adultery. 'lliere was another irregularity in suspect abuse. This WAS not stoficient d'' groun .or tne behind lem, c p Its e• nerk ng a ny e land , * odor' nothin e had been etese to tee case of the petite ner. kVl:en ordered !o . do pe- inquiry. These Courts were represented as fatteni 7: d, e (Hear, hear.) .- et him pronounce the w' r w i the peer of :::e Ecclesiesti. al since, see expressed a willingness to submit to the upon the fees taken, but the representation law Idsta n d •• ' J ( icar.) T" e 1. was tut- would AIL , n. e . ;taw in tnes..Cuurts was of greet Cate t. Her mother eaid she was willing to c o m p l y, founded. These Courts judge • •il •cit 7 In civil suits retemd Lord would have the thanks of the liose l • - . VII 11.4MA11 ~,, ia• 1 as.. power, knew how to it the succeeding reigns o Stephen, their jurisdict firmed. In the reign c betwe,n that Prince, w likely to stifET eccleias Archbahop cf Canttrl end of which furious str eccieSiastic. , lp , wer was therefore, through the ri And in the time of Kink that that King was and only took it again of Rollie. The Noble t . f the Ecclesiastical C. ward 111. during whic m ide to restrict it ; at against its encroachmei to be concluded, thrt with the feelings cf the of ignorance when tie little, if at all uridirsto - 111. a statute was passc to the Chinch of Rom J.id Clergy joined a i ; tl:is titre, the p.!ared in the effcrti of and up to Hei:) , VII curtail the power of th of Henry VII. that ti was broken down, .kirg all the clergy tanetwb c offences Act !tom ever met sucl was limited, from the Of the next Session ; a the wean time, pr, acl pauj's ; and at:cry:arc puip se, composed of in which he contended exempted fr. m the jut book led to the Act al - clergy, ilhich was en - , its pubiicatien. 'I he sti!ute an iticluiry into tpcet to not,tesa.ience gresi of the re.tareati the power of the Ecel• ous, and a commissiar appointed to frame a the business, anti in of change, he n ade an foice 2 and called the the Govennmert to t made the subjec t ot si try, o: extre, and that it was on the decisi. es of the Eccie The subject was agai in the icy,tt ot Edw. , • made at his insfance were tin:oitut:ately ii objects was t I e a.,01 mcauba %7lttet had g plaint. Puling t: e been dune ; alt inqn was given up by the continued tor set loui bet ties of the subject of this Ct urt, and all repress the disciniten . James the First havi Puritan on the stilije , lotion flamed at Hai found efricnetit. Th , Terewed ut tae reign no sa,utary eflect ; ; sion app-iived by plet-.1) batil - ,-et by ill Churcit party. TV. I George h s present Maj, Su to , t in Let. it. - se sit.ce the Re-ft rma cheek or regulate Courts. The