Star. — London, England, 1812-12-02 00:00:00

. . 111111.101EMINIIMENSE taltaelleti Gelidetilikhavingfßelsohl insblren'iMh PARLIAMENTARY PROCEEDINGS. which woe denied to thgrest of the House, came forward, and made two good essays on subje cts fur. HOUSE OF LORDS, DIMMER L niched to than by the Minister of the day. He The House met about two o'clock. would move, therefore, that the Address be brought The Marquis of HERTFORD reported that be had wafted up t hi s d ay week.—The Amendment being seconded, an the Prince Regent, to know• when he would be pleased tore- iand ceije the Address of the House. He bad now to inform their the question put, Lordships, that his Royal Highness would be ready to receive it Mr. FREEMANTLE thou* it was not ne at half-put two o'clock—. Their Lordships then went up with cessary that the Speech should chin a detail of the the Address. state of the finances of the country., but merely enter Lord REDESDALE brought up his Bill for facilitating the into a general statement of the resources of the nation. Administration of Justice in the Court of Chancery and House of Lords. It was the same, he observed, u his Bill of last year.— It was afterwards the duty of the House to enquire Read 'first time. into the power and ability of the finances to meet the The Earl of LIVERPOOL observed, that after many of their proposed expenditure. With respect to the Address, ' Lordships hail gone away imt night, he had given notice of a rne- he must say that he was one of those who did not tion of Thanks to the Marquis of Wellington and hit Army, for • the Victory of Salamanca. He now repeated his notice, and that consider the prospects of the country at all improved be would bring forward the motion on Thursday. since the Jast.Session of Parliament, whether consi , UNIVERSITY PETITIONS. dered internally or externally; indeed, the contrary The Duke of GLOUCESTER presented a Peti- was his opinion. He was ready to allow with the tion from the University of Cambridge against the Noble. Lord that our alliance with Russia was one of • Catholic Claims. In presenting this Petition, he great importance, but its advantages were more than himself begged leave to be understood as not giving i overbalanced by the unfortunate rupture with Arne an opinion either one way or the othero--The Peti- rica ; and when he lookeil to the internal situation of Lion was laid on the table. the country, he could not bring himself to consider Lord GRENVILLE stated, that he had in his that as improved during the last nine months. The band, a Petition from the University of Oxford against Honourable Member then took a review of the trail the Catholic Claims. He considered it his duty to :actions attending the contest in the Peninsula, and present this Petition ; but, in presenting it, he con- contended, that from the dispositions of the Spaniards ceived it to be no , less his duty to record his own dis- themselves no hopes could be entertained of success. ' tent from its object.—This Petition was also laid on He then adverted to the explanation given by Lord the table. Castlereagh last night on the subject of the Treaty . • Lord HARDWICKE, adverting to the Cam- with Sweden, and observed it was one by no means bridge - Petition, complained of the unfair manner in satisfactory to him.—(Hear, hear.)—An Amend which it bad been carried. When it was intended to ment had been moved last night by an Honourable discuss a matter of this importance, much longer Friend of his—he was as anxious as any man could 'notice ought to have been given.—Adjourned till be to obtain a peace, yet he could not agree with that Thursday. Amendment, as it was only by rendering ourselves respectable that we could hope to obtain that object. He concluded by observing, that he should, in the course of the Session, tike every opportunity of call ing the attention of the House to these subjeets. Mr. ROBERTSON defended the policy of the war in the Peninsula, and contended that our situa tion there was far more favourable than at the com mencement of the last campaign ; since the effect of the battle of Salamanca had been to raise the siege of Cadiz, and set all the Southern provinces :'ree ; and, on a view of the operations of the whole campaign, he contended that the result_ had been decidedly in our favour. Mr- FREEMANTLE said a few words in ex planation. Mr. ROSE said, that he wished to make a very few observations in answer to a topic which had been allude to in this discussion, and in which he thought an unfounded notion had gone abroad, in consequence of what had fallen from the Chancellor of the Exche quer in the course of the last Session. It was a tax upon capital to which he alluded, and which he con sidered as absolutely impracticable. This was the idea he always entertained of it from its first sugges tion, and had so represented it, in an answer which be had written to a Rig4t Reverend Ptelate, with whom the idea was supposed to have originated. Mr.W 0 RTLEY professed to feel asmuch anxiety as any other Gentleman could do, that peace might be procured as soon as possible, consistent with our •honour and our safety. He was satisfied, however, that whenever it was to be made, it must be by the act of the Government; and that it ought not to ap pears measure forced upon his Majesty's Ministers by the vote of that House, or by the mete considera tion of the distresses of th'.! people. No person could shut their eyes to the situation and interests of our manufactut s ; and the Ministers must feel that the) were incprring a serious responsibility, if they omit ted to proffer peace, should a favourable opportunity present itself. Lord MILTON could not avoid making some ob servations on that part of the Speech which referred to America. No one could be insensible how much the prosperity of this country depended on the con nection «ith America, and he rather feared that Mi nisters had unnecessarily plunged the country in a war with that nation. In tact, in all the negotiations with America, it appeared whim there was tco much irritation on both sides. He was not afraid to say, that he feared that even on the pars of the grcat per sonage at the head of our Government, there might be something of an hereditary irritation against the American people. If war was necessary, lie did not approve of that mitigated warfare spoken of last night by a Right Honourable Gentleman, but, in the case of America, lie really believed that tittle ought to hare been no warfare at all. Mr. STEPHEN said, that as an Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Whitbread) bad pledged himself to give the House an early opportunity of discussing the whole of this American question, he should not now trcubJe the House at any length on the subject. He could ;rot avoid, hotkever, when he heard the Noble Lord speaking of an hered kat y irritation against America on the part of the Head of our Government, expres ling his opinion, that this was a most unmerited cen. sure on that august and venerable Yersonage,,who had, for so marry years, (Lord Milton, across the House, told him, it was not to that Personage he bad alluded ; and Mr. Stephen apologized for having misunderstood him.) The words of the speech were, however„ now so fresh in the recollection of the House, that he thought, they must evidently sce, that *bele ,was nothing . ofirritation towards America in it. As to there having been equal irritation on both sides, in the negotiations between the iwo• Govern silents, that be must absolutely deny. Ii had yes, i terday been objected tb Ministers, that they had not even published any declaration in answer to the Anse: rican declaration of war. He must for himself de clare, that he never felt any irritation against Ame rica, or any wish but to preserve peace with her; although he had felt it his duty for many years, both with his tongue and pen, to defendavhat he-conceived' the undoubted maritime rights of this . country, and those interests on which be considered that the pros perity of our commerce, and the strength of our rine, mainly depended. Where was the conciliatioq, on the part of the American Government ? Did Gentlemen forget the taunting mannerin which they received Mr. Erskine's proposals for accornmoda don ; or the manner in which they had sent Mr. Jackson out of the country ? Even when ' that great concession was mac last year, which the Gentlemen on the other side had thought would heal all—when the Orders ht Council were repealed, the intelligence of the disposition in this country to repeal • those Orders, was suet by the American Government HOUSE OF COMMONS. The SPRAKER read a letter from Rear-Admiral Sfepford, dated Cape Town, August 25, expressing his acknowledgments for the Thanks voted to himself and the forces under his coin mend, for the naval transactions at Java. Sir W. SCOTT presented a Petition from the University of Oxford against the Catholic Claims.--Read, and ordered to lie on the table. Lord CASTLEREAGH made the usual motions, thit no pri vate Poltions should be received after the 18th of ? December; and :to private bill after the Bth day of March ; and that the Petitions relating to contested Elections, should be deferred till the meeting after the holidays, whirl' would be the brat week in February.—Agreed to. A Petition wat then brought up from Charles Wetherell and Edward Kellerson, Esqrs. stating that they bad been returned by ` the majority of legal votes, to represent the Borough of Shaftes bury : and that the other Candidates were guilty of bribery. The Petition was ordered to be taken into consideration on tke ilth of February next. Lord CASTLEREAGH made the usual motion for the ar- sangement of the Orders and Notices. Mr. WHITBREAD supposed that .the Motion was worded „ precisely as was last year; hut he must again enter his protest against this arrangement, at tending to throw too great power into the hands of his Majesty's Ministers. He should cot take the sense of the House upon it, but hoped that it would never be • forgot, that every Member had the r ght to make a motion with out notice. Lord MILTON followed to the same effect; observing, that though the professed object of this departure from the ancient custom was to facilitate business, yet it had rather tended to cramp it. . • Lord F'OLICESTONE gave notice of a motion for Friday, re specting the orders lately issued relating to the Ofacera of the German Legion. Mr. KENRICR gave notice of a aiptiou for the same day, re • litive to Inclosures. On ate mutton or Ilitr e iVZlAlLTOtt, II Committee of expiring laws was appointed. • Mr. JEBB gave notice, that he should early bring in a Bill to repeal the statute of Charles, granting a settlement to £lO a year. Sir W. CURTIS brought up a Petition from the Clergy of Lon don, incorporated into the society of Sion College against the ca tholic Claims.—Ordered to lie on the table. Mr. LOCKHART presented a Petition from the City of Ox ford against the Catholics.—Ordered to Ile on the table. Mr.,LOCKHART pledged himself to support the prayer of the Petition. • . ADDRIPAS. On the question of the bringing up the Report of the Address, Mr. CREEVEY objected to it, till farther time was given for the consideration of the subjects con tained in it. In the times of William and Ann, 5,0, or 8 days were allowed between the speech and the answer. Under the present circumstances, such a delay was more important than ever : but it was not merely on account of the variety of matter, being no less than three wars, that he protested against the ..arly introduction o f report, but on account of a most remarkable omission. He alluded to that part ,of the speech which spoke of the supplies. It did not say one word with respect to the revenue, nor to the state of the cc mmerce of the country : a cool and iskEatiCdeinand of assistance was-made, unaccompa nied with one syllable of financial statement. To spew that such a style was perfectly new, he would beg the Clerk to read the part of the speech to which lhe alluded, and the corresponding parts of two other speeches. Itwas not his intention to go through all the speeches which had been made by all our kings. • Laugh J—He should content himself with re ferring to two,—one delivered at the beginning of the French war in 1794, the other in the year 1804. (The Clerk here read the three passages, the last two .of which were fuller on tie subject of finance, than the speech of the present Session.) He thought that the House would agree with him that these state: ments were much more satisfactory than the present, which appeared to him a novel and extraordinary ,method of making a demand. Was it possible that . the Prince could be acquainted with the finances, and the commercial distress of the country ?Obit would, in his opinion, be much better to acquaint the Regent with this distress, than to quietly and. immediately obey the novel suggestion contained in his speech,. Great caution was necessary on this subject, as it was impossible that the expenditure of the country could proceed on its present enormous scale. This had been allowed both by Mr. Tierney and the Chancel lor of the Exchequer : and it was not a little extra ordinary that the latter, after the declarations which he bad made, and the hints be had thrown out as to a tax on capital, should not have thrown a word into the speech relative to the finances of the country.— For his own part, he knew that the finances were in such a state, that the annuitant was robbed of one third of his income for the lake of the Bank and not for the sake of his Country; and that one day this system must end in the annihilation of all the funded property in the country. For this reason he protested against any further advance of money without better cause alleged he protested against the new mode of coming before Parliament at the beginning of. wit Session with such demands it was indeed, an a mere farce and Parliamentary parade, in which t wo teraedy for the erns that the emetry, h e w only presented it to the consideration of the Auld in doing that, who would say that he had improperly or unconstitutionally? Does the H O4 . Gentleman forget that the King, in his spermfel the last nineteen years, had uniformly introduced ;h e 'question of peace, and expressed his sincere wid i i, 4 the occurrence of every opportunity which lead to the enjoyment of its blessings. For hit o lc; Part, it was hit earnest wish to have this most portant of all questions argued, connected as it w as with the distresses and privations of the people. H e was not, more than ;ay man, but certainly not than any other man, desirous of upholding the ham * of the country, nor was he. inclined to make le 1,. orifices for the interest and safety of the empi re; I x: when he saw the G overnment i n hands, which nide, himself nor the Right Non. Gentleman oppr e k e (Mr. Canning) could trust . —when he viewed th e% possessed of full power, without the slightest il l% of public confidence, he could trot help wisniozood wishing sincerely, that th e P r i nce Regent sho uld plainly and fairly told the dangers to which their i d. ministration exposed the nation. He age t od p it i t the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Robinson) in the vi ew h e had taken of the effects of the battle of Sales loca; but when such glorious proof s were h e l d up of ell consummate skill of Lord Wellington, and the We er and gallantry of the British army, wa s he no t ent i t l ed to ask, what had been done by the Universal s lus h', (Nation ? When they read the account of the Wa s of Salamanca, was it not rather distressing to * ma account of units, and tens, and hundreds, and thou. sands slain or wounded of British and French, e a t of the Spaniards, two or four ?—(Hear, hc ar , the Opposi(ion):—Howeas this to be accounted for! For whom were they fighting ? Whom were,tb e y assisting ? The Spaniards was the answer ; and di, lin the heat t and centre of that for witeak would be natural - 12i txpect, tor every nunsne British slain, we should see a thousand Spaniardi; and fur every thousand, ten thousand. But how we the fact ?So many British—so many Portuguese.. Spaniards—two ! The Guerillas, he would be told were active, and he admitted their activity, and* lity to a certain extent, when under British contrtel; but he was convinced, that though they did n mischief to the enemy, they were hot quite hanks to the population of Spain ; and if Lord Wellingee was withdrawn, their resistance would be a ea imagination, without a shadow of hope. With or adequate means, he had the highest opinim4 what might be effected by the British under sucbt leader as the Marquis of Wellington ; but what to be done ? They were told, that peace was*n be rnade with that man who directed the Gam, by ea latimperate message to the Leedature, laylag down ail the principles ofthe Duke of Bassano's letter, and even insisting that the American Rag should make free goods. Now, he would ask the Noble Lord, was' be prepared to give up what we considered our mari. time rights,—the right of blockading our enemy's ports, and the right of taking British seamen out of American vessels ? If he was not prepared to mate ' these concessions which the American Government : insisted on, how was that Government to have been conciliated? Mr. Stephen concluded by defending, at some length, the principles upon whichhe had al ways supported the Orders in Council. Mr. WILBERFORCE concurred in most of the i observations which had been made by the Honour. able Gentleman. As to peace, however desirable it was in itself, it would be better that it should pro ceed from the act of the Government laying hold of the first favourable opportunity for effecting it, than that it should appear forced ulna them by any pub lic cry ftom without doors, or even from any vote of that House. If the Government were compelled to slake peace from the state of the country, that peace could hardly be made on such honourable terms as I if the enemy believed that it was, not from absolute necessity, but from their own inclination that our Government was induced to offer terms of peace. Mr. PONSONBY said, that he did not consider that in voting for that Address, he was at all pledged. to support any particular measures of his Majesty's i Ministers. About a century ngo, when the House, did consider themselves so pledged by their address, they took some time to deliberate upon it. At_pre-, sent, however, addresses were merely echoes of the speech, and he considered them as so merely com. plimentary, that it was not worth discussing them much ; especially as regular occasions for discussion would afterwards occur. He really considered the voting an address, in consequence of a speech from the throne, as much a matter of course and cusap mary compliment, as the signing" your very humble servant" to a letter. Such a subscription did not pledge any man to any particular service; neither did the voting a complimentary address pledge any man to the approbation of any specific measure which Ministers should think proper to bring forward. Lord CASTLEREAGH felt much obliged to the Right Honourable Gentleman for the course he had thought proper to pursue. It would certainly be much moie convenient to discuss those subjects regularly, whenever Ministers should propose any measures in consequence of what had been stated in the speech. He should for the present forbear from , all discussion ; and he rose to defend Ministers from the supposition that they had at any time given an opinion, that America had a right to a particular revocation of the Orders in Council with respect to her, on *account of that French document which pre tended to be a revocatit n of the Berlin and Milan Decrees with respect to America. Mr. WHITBREAD felt himself called upon to rise, in consequence of some observations which had fallen from the Honourable Gentleman who was the late Member for Yorkshire (Mr. Wilberforce). He certainly did mean to redeem the pledge he had given of bringing the subject of America before the consi deytion of the House. He perceived that he should have again to contend with an Honourable and Lear ned Gentleman (Mr. Stephen) whose tongue and whose pen had been ably and diffusively exercised on this subject for many years. His pen, he believed,' had been exercised on it long before he came into Parliament ; and perhaps it was that which had brought him into Parliament.—(4 laugh.) His tongue, however, had been silent on that occasion when the Orders were abandoned. It was true he had been seen often in the House about that time, but very close conversation had been noticed betweeni him and a Noble Lord (Castlereagh). It was ge. nerally understood, that that Noble Lord had been; set to watch him, to prevent him from speaking ; as• on a former occasion Lord Wellington had been ap. pointed to watch another Learned Dector, to pre vent him from speaking. The cause for this restraint. being however now removed, he would again have an opportunity of speaking at large on the ,wisdom and policy of the Orders in Council. He was sure that he would fight hard, Eke a lion in the toils. A Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Rose) who might be considered the venerable Patriarch of the Treasury Bench, (a laugh), in talking of the tax upon capital which had been mentioned by the C i ttancellor of the Exchequer last Session, wished to throw off the blame from the shoulders of Lis own friends upon an unfot tunate Bishop some hundred miles distant (a laugh). This did not appear to him quite fair ; for although this scheme might have been the natural child of the Reverend Prelate (a laugh), certainly it appeared to have been the adopted child of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. As to his being singular in his moving for Peace in that House—when first he came into that House, that great man to wlfose authority he principally bowed (Mr. Fos) made a specific motion to address his Majesty for peace. The Right Hon. , Gentleman himself (Mr. Wilberforce) had once, when he thought his friend Mr. Pitt not sufficiently disposed for peace, brought forward a motion, in the House for the same purpose. His Right Honour able Friend (Mr. Ponsonby) had observed, that the .only measure of the kind, with respect to an address 'to the Crown recommending negociations for peace, was carried in the American war. The fact was , certainly so; and the fact was rendered peculiarly striking by the melancholy recollection that it was carried at the end of the war—a war most disgrace. ful and ruinous, because conducted by Ministers " who . were alike weak in, ability and poweiful in means. It was indeed carried after a long series of misfortunes, miseries, and humiliations, and when the servants of the Crown, its confidential advisers, and the Prince himself, - had been deaf to the voice, the appeal, the entreaties of the people. The same miserable system was, however, no less pursued in , the present crisis—and Ministers even more imbecile, more withoutsconfidence, yet noa less in the power of doing. mischief than those that wielded the Govern. 1 meat during the calamitous war with America were; with the Prince whom they counselled, impenetrable to the prayers, and deaf to the supplications of the almost united population of his Majesty's sublease.* —Was he then to b e re b u k e d, as i nten di ng b y hi s I amendment to the Address for peace, to throw the 1 safety and honour of th e c o untr y at t h e f oot O f t h e which cen ciuer he ciP u of ndo F u ran bte c d e ly t po lie sse m s er se r- d iy of enrCi free seCi enq Uile uiry ri at t discussion ; and instead of bringing f °l- war4 fer4b * s ment of France ; but that opinion he was most mai. ors to eradicate, for in the course of nature, pests with him they must make. He would then do Mr. Fox had done in 1795, he would openly and di. rectly make such propositions as could be offered, and then the result would he known directly. Or the whole, he wished to shew that he was not a tee man, but that he was treading in the steps of Fox, who was in himself that principle on - !acted, embodied and personified, and whoa had they been fdllowed, would have • country from the alternative to which she • reduced. From year to year they bad been to relax in their demands; and from year to enemy had arisen, until at length, if on tlw can question, they would come to the worst, cacti manufacturing and labouring poor would burst this doors, and compel them to make puce on the he iterms they could obtain. Mr. WILBERFORCE explained. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUZI agreed in the opinion, that every practicable maw* ante and means calculated to promote the sacces of the Peuinsula war should be given by Gown. ment. With respect to financial means, he cold state, that no possible supply had been withheld. h the year 1809, the sum of A 12,800,000 had boa granted ; and daring the eleven correspoedirg months of the present yeah no less than eleven mil• liens and an half had been applied to the services and emancipation of Spain. He had been accused d having thrown out, at the end of las;Sessioosanido of proposing a tax upon capital. The fact wa i ting he had done no such thing : he has merely argued, that were the country to be absolutely reduced w the necessity of submitting to a tax upo.. capitals& people would bear it with resignation and cheerful• ness, rather than submit to the ruin and degraded.* with which they were threatened by an insatiable and insolent enemy. He was reproached with.* cealing the state of our commercial commons; ba he would say, although the returns were noting* made up to the latest moment, that the trade gee country was very considerable ; and that.= according to the commerce of the port d of that of the whole kingdom, while the aro wire last year but eight millions and an la. diel li wele ,_ this year thirtee&millions. They were, idea. Wm than of any year except in 1909. It was ati ll matter of real satisfaction, that in a reveane 9l .7, millions sterling, there appeared but a dens!" 890,000. Mr. W. SMITH expressed his gratifiesties d 'taming, that the idea which, to his own knorie li e prevailed in many parts, of an intended tax spew pital, was altogether unfounded. Mr. CANNING was not at all desirous to Oaf the debate; but felt it his duty to set himself 0 1 1 / 4 against some misconstructions of the sentisaeple had delivered on the preceding night. Hisebri l , to the manner of carrying on hostilities against ail" rica was not in reality to the peculiarity of but to the want of a considerable portion of vat and military strength on the coasu of which might be enabled to effect real serviCne .hermetically seal her ports. Instead of dispatelog a force of that description, Sir John Warne, r 's droll had been actually, made up in the Moo 111- . bouts there ; and the only service performed by ships under his command, was the conveying er • flag of truce to the Executive Government of, rica. When he had used the phrase, that oar, merce was swept from the seas by the Aid* he evidently could be only understood es that when the relative naval means of the two. tries were compared, the captures made by 4. Americans were much soperior to ours, as we one rhmeaod ships of war, and they had to contend with so vast a superiority on OUT wriPkie would mot Mafia the Hoeft I* refuting 1 2 ' . Iv S t co 10 ni P to a vi tt q 6 7 - tl , ; 1 i 1 1 I