Star. — London, England, 1826-05-12 00:00:00

could be seleete3 more injurious to the landed interest than such a moment. But thesjit would be said, why not exercise the power of the Crown, allow foreign. corn W be admitted, andJahen summon Parliament and ask for an indemnity. It formed no part of the pier* gative of the Crown to dispense with the laws. He knew that that had been done with approbation under Lords Chatham and Camden, but then the only mea sure adopted was to forbid the export:6.)n of British corn, whilst now his Majesty's Government would not only have to prohibit the exportation of native grain but to admit foreign torn, either free of duty, since none would be imposed by Act of . Parliament, or taxed without consent of Parliament, though the first necessary of life, and at a time, too, when it was most wanted. They might afterwards call for an indemnity, but would they not he reproached with having done this when they must have foreseen its probability while Parliament was sitting, and when a 'cnustitu tional course, that which they were now pursuing, might have been adopted? The Noble Earl then described the nature of the pre sent measure, which fixed a limitation as to quantity without any reference as to price, and called upon their Lordships to allow the 13t11 to come before them that they might deal fairly with the subject instead of adopting a Resolution which might do great in jury to the country He then concluded by moving—" That the House do now adjourn." The Marquis of SALISBURY defended the Resolu tion. The first proposition made by his Majesty's 'Mi. nisters was calculated to give an idea that it was intended to get tit of the Coin Laws altogether. Modi fied as it bad been, he should have reposed the same colifiJence in it as he did in all the measures of the Noble Lord (Liverpooi), had it not been for the manner - and the time of its being brought in. His chief objec tion was that it would encourage the unfounded calum nies against the landed interest, that the Coin Lrws were kept up for its advantage. He wished to spew the country at large that the present distresses did not arise from the Corn Laws, but rather from free trade and the speculatlons which it encouraged. The quantity of corn in bond now was suillcient to prevent the apprehension of a scarcity. As to the Corn Laws themselves, this was not the proper moment for discussing their merits er demerits. From the time when they had been established, they had at least had the posidve merit of securing slow price of corn to the public, and yet a reatuneratiog • use is the *rower. The Earl of LIMERICK was astonished at the line of argument adopted by the Noble Earl (Bathurst) He objected to going into au inquiry on account of the late period of the Sessions. Whose fault was it that those measures had been brought forward only now? And even then it was not the middle of May, and V ere was ample time to carry on an inquiry. Necessity was the only ground on which those measures could be jewelled, and what necessity was there for them, er what danger of a famine . price, when the average price of corn at this moment was only fres. 6ul. and the market was continually falling? The Noble Earl then alluded to the Report of Mr. Jacob. who though he pretended to have visited all the corn canaries of Europe in sis months, bad not gone to South Russia, to the Ukraine, or to Sicily, which were its granaries! He should support the Resolution. The question was of vital importance to Ireland, who existed only by agriculture, and must fall if egriculture was destroyed. The Earl of HAREWOOD said, that if this measure had gone on as at first intended, with an unlimited power of importation, he thought there would have been considerable ground of apprehension for the corn growers of this country; but modified as it now was, he saw no reason for alarm, and entertained no objec tion towards it. Having said this, however, he must regret that the question had been moved at all in this advanced period of the Session; but the House was now in the dilemma, and lie thought their best course ' *as to proceed. The Noble Lord then stated, that in his view the distresses of the country had been im properly connected with this question. It appeared to Min to be uniting two things entirely dissimilar to themselves. If relief could be given to the claws uow unhappily suffering under such severe privations, without injury to agriculture, he should be glad to see it done. Aod although he thought this measure not likely to give any considerable relief, yet he thought the alarm which it ex cited bad been greatly exaggerated. Under these circumstances he should vote for the Amendment of the Noble Earl. The Earl of ROSEBERRY disclaimed any prejudice or attachment in favour of the Corn Laws, as they at present stood ; on the contrary, he retained the opinion which he had formerly expressed, that a modification ought to be effected. But he fully concurred in what he thought had ben the general feeling of the House, that the present Session was, on every account, unfit for' the investigation. When the first proposition of the Government was made to their Lordships, be heard it with something approaching to dismay. To the ad mission of the bonded corn he had no objection, because although be did not believe that it could afford relief, it would show the manufacturers their Lordships sym pathised with their distress. With regard to the other measure, limited as it now was, he apprehended no danger horn the exercise of the power sought by the Govehment in this particular case. But he saw nothing in the circumstances of the present year which distinguished it from the common course of events, or reqair d any departure from the ordinary system establialted by the laws. The manufacturing classes Weft not suffetiog from the scarcity or dearness of corn, but front She want of employment, to enable them to purchase it at any price. He had no objection to the hest measure, but viewing the wiped ks useless and mischievous be should vote for the motion of 'his Noble Friend. The Noble Earl then deprecated the efforts which bad Ltzly been made to inflame the minds of the against the owners of the sod. They had always been to as—if not the most important—one of the most important classes in the country. They had experience that the prosperity of the country depended upon the prosperity of agriculture; and he regretted that the minds of the suffering manufacturers should be so abused as that they should suppose the welfare of agriculture inimical to their own com forts, or productive of their distress. He abstained from going Into any details of the views he entertained in respect to the Corn Laws, but stated his decided opinloo that a revision was inevitable. The Earl of ABERDEEN has yet to learn what has happened in the history of the country to lead their Lordships to b lieve that the most tespectable class of his Majesty's subjects was about to be injured. He de stied that the of Ministers had this effect, or that Ministers had acted inconsistently with avowed opinions, in bringing forward these measures. The inconsistency lay with those who condemned Ministers for touching upon the Corn Laws. and yet were requesting their to institute a minute inquiry into these laws. He cost tirtutsdbirr the expediency of granting Jlinisters the discretionary • power they asked fur, and that the high price of corn was a just ground for the importation of foreign corn; as the admitting the blooded worn (front which be expected no very 'arguing relief) Into the market, was called for by the distress of the manufacturers. He regretted the necessity of the measures of Government, but con tended for their expediency ; the more so. as they were discon nected with the main question of the Corn Laws, and would be gratefully received by the pee*. The Karl of ROSEBEILItY explained. Lord ELLENBOROUGH maintained that as ques tion that did not involve the subsistence of the people would induce him to grant a discretionary power to Ministers to import foreign corn into the country. As tO the question of the Corn Laws, be asked whose system these laws belonged to? from whom did they emanate? From the Noble Lords opposite (Liverpool and hlalmesbury) who moskinconsister.tly declared their ignorance of their own laws in 1815 and 1822. and brought in measures against their own Bills. He (Lord Elleabovough) voted lot the admission of bonded corn last year; but he was not therefore obliged to vo:e for the present Medlillt- The circumstances were dile- measures 'rent; corn was then rising for two years. He cautioned the House against admitting bonded corn at this time. He did not` like to be deeendentifor his bread on the cerise of foreigg e ss. He hoped the House would resist-the. mew sume r • asi n i u mp b , un t iri s they were satisfied from inquiry 'that these measures were imperatively called our. They were unjust to the prosperity awl character of the evicukural interests. He or posed the discretionary powers demanded by Nlinisters, and would continue to oppose them unless the Noble Hari (Liverpool) pledged himself that the request originated with him ; fur in his honour and good faith he would place confidence. If the House granted this power,tbere would be no means of effecting an equitable adjustment. The Earl of WESTMORELAND observed that the measure before the House did not employ that the dis tress arose from the Corn Laws. It might as well be said that the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act im plied that the Act itself w.s not beneficial. It was proper to grant the power required by Government, under the present circumstances. It was proper for his Majesty's Government to demand such powers, and he was a little surprised at some arguments which had been used on the opposite side. It had been maintained that the measure gave Ministers a discretionary power which ought not to be given, and at the same time it was ad mitted that circumstances might occur which would render it proper for them to exercise such a power, without being authorised to do so by the provisions of the Coin Bill. It the price of that commodity was 50s. on the 15th August, were we in consequence to suppose that the price of corn would be proportionably low at other times of the year ? The low price of corn in the month of May was no proof that it would below in the month of October. The year 1766 had been alluded to. In the month of September of that year, corn was from 60s. to 70s. and in the month of December, 100 s. In that year an embargo waslaid on to prevent the expel'. talon of corn. That exercise of the prerogative of the Crown was considered dangerous, but others argued that it was indeed an act r.f power, but used to a good purpose for the "salus populi." He complained of the improvident conduct of Ministers, who, had they acted as Statesmen—had they looked before them, those distresses which now prevailed would not have come unforeseen ' • they would then have felt it their duty, with such knowledge, to have prepared for such a mate of things. With respect to the discretionary power which was to be vested in the Ministers (should the country concur in granting such a power) the Ministers should consider that it they got that power they were responsible for a discretionary use of it. If they possessed that power, they were bound to exercise it with discretion, and in such a manner that no dispassionate mw in the country could disapprove of it. Earl GROSVENOR said the m inner in which the Noble Earl (Malmesbury) had brought forwaid his mo tiou met with his entire satisfaction. He could not prevail on himself to vote for the measures introduced by his Majesty's Ministers, and he was convinced that if the proposal were adopted every person in the king doms would believe that the duty proposed would be considered as the standard duty, and that the whole question of the Corn Laws would be finally settled in that manner. Could anything be more vacillating than the conduct of Ministers, during the whole of the ques tion ? He considered that the expenditure of the country should be diminished before this question should be introduced. He was satisfied that it this question had been brought earlier before the House of Commons, that House would have said, reduce first the expenditure of the country to the lowest ebb, before such a measure be introduced. He would not consent to a proposal of this nature, which could not lead teeny permanent relief, but would ultimately do great harm. Earl DARNLEY said, that if Ministers had been actuated by proper motives, they would have brought forward this measure three weeks ago, when they might have foreseen the distress which would have taken place, at which period it was certainly the most proper to introduce this resolution. Had the Ministers acted so they would have conducted themselves in a Statesman like manner; but at that time it was confidently stated by them that they would not meddle with the Corn Laws.. As they have now come forward with this proposition, be would not hesitate in telling them that it was not for,the purpose of relieving the distress, but for some sinister object. If he thought such were the case—to afford relief—he would have given them his support ; but for the manner they had come forward, he felt bound to oppose them. He felt that the precedent to be established by this measure would be highly injurious; and instead of Ministers introducing this measure, they should have made some provision for the employment of the population of the country. He believed the Corn Laws had nothing at all to do with the distress, neither could he believe that the adoption arf the proposed mea sure would afford that benefit to the manufacturing classes which the Government avowedly proposed. He defied the Noble Earl (Liverpool) to state the distress 14 the cause of bringing forward this measure; and he would never consent to the placing se much discretion ary power in the hands of Ministers. lie would do it with regret, but stilt he found it his duty to vote for the previous question. He must at the same time say, that without the Corn Liws the state of the country would have been much worse than it is at present. A sudden alter ation, however, hid taken place : the whole systems, hi fact, had changed, and it was necessary to take some Iniassilate steps suitable to the exigency of the occasion. If the subject were to be taken up In the manner proposed by the Noble Lord, they must go into the great question at once, and discuss the expediency or the inex pediency of the Corn Laws this Session. The present time was most unfavourable. The result, he was =winced, would not be satis factory, and for those reasons be would vote against the motion. Lord KING said, his Noble Friend who spoke last, charged him and the Noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Liverpool) with having done mischief, and produced an impress on in the country that the distress was occasioned by the Corn Lan s. What really produced mischief was the law itself. The Noble Earl opposite (Liverpool) or himself could have done no mischief, was it not for that law. The Noble Earl who brought forward this motion forgot to state what his real motive was. The object was to catch the votes of the innocent politicians on that side of the House, and to resist ix &sine any alteration of the Cora Laws. He knew not how the motion would be received on the other side, but it had a ten dency some how to disturb the equilibrium of the House.. Hard things had been said of his Majesty's Ministers, but they knew well how to deal with the House en questions that interested them so nearly. Some thought it very hard to reject the propositions of Government, and tun the risk of leaving the country for three or four months without the possibility of getting any foreign corn. Others thought it the highest presumption to insinuate that any alteration of the Corn Laws was necessary. Alter the experience of eleven years, it would be mere drivelling not to decide that the law required alteration. It had been said that it had nothing to do with the present di-tress. It had every thing to du with it, and the country could never be secure from distress until it was altered. This he would prove in the following manner. Every quarter of foreign corn that was brought into the English market furnished , the means of paying for goods of British manufacture. It was only by permitting foreign corn to enter that the present want of demand could be relieved. The distress that now prevailed was telt by the producers of such goods es were intended lot the foreign markets, and foreign nations had no way of paying for these I commodities but by disposiog of their corn.. At the reseal olemint, corn was nearly eee.third dater in this country theft it was abroad, and surely such a cif.- I tumstaoce must' most materially affect the prosperity of the country. and,contribute to cause the present dis tress." The effect of the Corn Laws was to make the produce high ; and, consequently, profits and wages,, and the rate of interest, would be low. A lose rate of interest gave rise to speculation, and this in its turn caused a reaction, and brought a train of evils. He was convinced there would be no steady system until we altered the Corn Laws, sod brought down the prices of corn In this country to a standard nearer to what it was on the Continent. The Earl of CARNARVON said, that this ques:ion ought not to be, and could not be, separated trom that of the Corn Laws,lsecause, if it were, the country would be left in doubt during the whole of the Recess. The course pursued by his Majesty's Ministers was most ambiguous. The Noble Eirl opposite -had but a few days since informed the House that during the present Session of Pat liament the Corn Laws would not be agitated. He (Lord Cat narvon) was surprised to hear the Noble Esri making use of such a subterfuge as to say this measure did not come under that head. What had occurred to alter his determination, when, at the present moment, the markets were as much depressed as they could be ? If the motion wee the recent short lived riots, the mute consistent plan would be to do away with the Corn Laws altogether, or to pass an Act for suspending the use of power looms until next Session of Pat liament. He could never give his assent to such a measure as that contemplated by the Noble Earl (Liverpool), because, if a discretionary power of admit ting, doting the whole of the Recess, 4 quantity of corn into the country, were given to Ministers, there would be a con stant fluctuation in the markets, and a total destruction of con fidence, for the farmer would not know when to take, nor the landlord when to let bis lauds. He would not therefore give his vote for disturbing the present system of the Corn Laws in any way, without a Cull and fair inquiry. Viscount DUDLEY and WARD observed, it ap peared to him that the object of the motion of the Noble Earl (Malmesbury) was to prevent any interference with the Corn Laws during the present Session of Par liamEnt. But such an arrangement, considering the state in which the country was placed, might have a very iojurious tendency ; and if corn were not to be admitted into the ports to a starving people, the most disastrous effects might follow. He believed that time might be lost ; and that if time were lost, many thou sands would fall victims to a fatal policy. He was an enemy to the Corn Laws, but he was not desirous that they should be swept away hastily : he believed that if such a course were pursued, the public mind would not be sufficiently tranquil to allow that to be done which was necessary to the safety of the agricultural interest. He world therefore give his vote against the motion of the Noble EuL The Earl of MANSFIELD contended that the price of corn did not in the least cause the present distress that prevailed in the manufacturing districts. and that no suck measure as that contemplated by the Noble Earl (Liver pool) was at all necessary. The Earl of LIVERPOOL denied that any change had taken place in his general opinions upon the subject before the House ; but it was necessary to recollect what was the real nature of the subject which they were discussing. The question before the House was not like a constitutional question—not a question which was built upon formal enactments, or which depended upon freed and permanent principles; but it was in its very nature, that of necessity it must be varying from time to time ; that the decision which suited in 1816 would not be applicable to 1822, and that the regula tion of 1822 might require further consideration in 1826; but that the system generally must keep adopt ing itself to the changed, or changing circumstances of the country. For, suppose that in the year 1816 ► the_ price up to which corn should be protected, had been fixed at 80s.; if, since that year, 27.000,0001. of taxes had been taken off—if half the assessed taxes, the salt tax, the agricultural horse tax, and a variety of other taxes press'ng particularly upon the landed interest, had been taken off, who would say that a price of 60s. or 655. at the present moment was not absolutely equal to a price of 80s. in the year 1816 ? • And if this were so, where was the absurdity but on the part of those who contended that to periods so widely different, as to circumstances, the same rule ought to apply? Upon the subject of the Corn Laws he no doubt had his opinions; but they had nothing to do with the present measure, escept that—like the arrangement for admit- ting the bonded corn in the last year—he thought that those who were the most attached to them ought to be the first to support it. No doubt, early in the present Session, and several times during the progress of it, he had said—and said honestly and sincerely—that, for reasons with which it was not now necessary to detain the House, during the present Session it was not the intention of Ministers to bring on any discussion of the Corn Laws; and he entertained that opinion as strong now as then, and it was chiefly on that account that he objected to the motion of the Noble Lord, because if it should be carried it would be absolutely necessary to go into the question of the Corn Laws: he wished the measures which were now in contemplation for the re- ' lief of the distress to stand upon their own merits; and he desired their Lordships, before they adopted a course which would at once place a total bar to any investiga tion into the policy of them, to see how they would be sent up from the Commons, and then they might dispose of them as tkey appeared to deserve. But it had been said, why has this change of opinion taken place within these few weeks, or rather few days, in the minds of the Ministry ? He replied, that no change of opinion had taken place—certainly, a sudden and unforeseen event had rendered a temporary measure necessary.— He must admit that the distress in the manufacturing districts bad increased until it had arrived at a height which had scarcely ever been experienced in this country before ; it was not merely in Lancashire alone that this scene of misery was exhibited, ut .Deibysliiie, War wickshire, and, in short, all the manufacturing counties participated in the distress. The poor sufferers had, with few exceptions, conducted themselves in a most exemplary manner on this trying occasion, and sub-' mitted peaceably to the laws of their country ; the dis tress had certainly increased much beyond the expec tations of Government, and even beyond that of the. manufacturers themselves; for when the deputations from the country applied for assistance from Govern ment in the beginning of the year, they gave as their opinion, that if they could get over two or three months, everything would go on well—that trade would revive, and the distress be completely at an end. When a season of calamity unexpectedly came upon us, it was a question very often asked — " Why did not you do yes terday what you propose to do to-day r Indeed, it was a matter of no little difficulty to know precisely how to act on such occasi.ms. But to revert to the pre sent case—the distress at last arrived at such a height, And assumed such a v ry ser'ous appearance, that it' became at last imperatively incumbent on the Govern. ment to see if some specific re medy could n t be devised for its alleviation, or at any rate if sr m a . thing could not be done to prevent its spre dies wider., He particularly wished that he should nor be misunderstood, or that it should be supposed that he thought the high pike of corn• was the origin, or had anything to do with the present dis tress; he had never said, 'or` even imagined, that such wasthe case: he considered that the pie cut calamities had arisen from overttading, and an abuse of the pros perity which the country had lately enjoyed. But at the same time it would be equally absurd to say that the high price of provisions was no addition to the evil ; he, therefore, wished their Lordships to examine into the grounds which called for the adoption of the present measures. Every one who had at a 1 examined into. this matter must have ascertained that this countif grew scarcely suffi.ient corn for its own consumption.. If such, then, were the case, what would be likely to be the effect on the country if there should happen to Le an ' unfavourable harvest? He wished this to be considered quite as much with a view t ► the agricultural interests. as to the manufacturing, or to the interests of any other class of the community; There were two periods at which great injury might be sustained by the corm—. one when the wheat was in the Rawer, another when it was neatly ripe. We were not without z sad experience on this subject. If the accounts of the various harvests for a period of thirty-two years, commencing in the year 1791, and ending in that of 1822, were to be ex *mined into, it would be found that there had been eleven very defective harvests. There was no trusting to first apprarances or fair prospects in this matter : a single week, nay, a single day, might blast the la'rest hopes, and turn an apparent abundance into a mo.t terrible scarcity : he himself perfectly well recollected lan instance of this. In June, 1816, there was every prospect of a most abundant harvest, when one single day entirely destroyed this prospect, and caused an ex, cessive scarcity: indeed, so much so that the price of corn rose from 535. to 100 s. and 110 s. per quarter. Their Lordships would readily conceive what a dis astrous effect such a circumstance and such a flac na tion in prices must have caused in the country ; but if such a calamity were to occur now, in the existing state of the country, what terrible consequences might be apprehended? In the first place the poi is could not open until the 17th of August, and even then, if the averages should happen to be against you, you would have to wait three months longer, until the 14th of November. This was the case in 1816. If this scarcity should come in times of pimp , rity • it might be tolerated ; but when great distress prevailed amongst the manufacturing population, the case was widely different. Would, then, their Lordships, with the present state of the country before their eyes, refuse this power to Government ? Whatever might be their opinion as to the propriety of granting it for another year, except as to the general defects of the system, he trusted they would see the necessity of conceding it at present. He felt persuaded that their Lordships could not think it right that no provision should be mad 'T Parliament to enable Government to interfere, is it should so happen that corn should, as it bad done at a former period, rise to 100 s. or 110 s. per quarter. His Noble Friend had said, where is the proof c I the necessity for this measure? He had already stated his case, and he thought he had sufficiently made out the necessity; he would leave it to their Lordships whether they were willing to run the risk, and place the country in the situation in which it would be placed if a bad fieriest should occur,and Ministers should not have the power to remedy the evils which would be occasioned thereby. It had been urged against this measure, that the poor ma nufacturers were in want of work, not in want of bread. He was ready to admit, and with sorrow he said it, that many of them were without work, but still many more who had work were obliged to work at the lowest pos sible wages. Several, who a short time ago could make from 18s. to 20s. per week, were now reduced to Irk at from 7s. to 6s. or even ss. per week. WAS it no con sideration to persons in this unhappy situation whether they paid a little snore or a little less for the qtiartern loaf ? But it had been said, that this was calculated to injure the agricultural interests. If corn were to rise to 100 e. or 110 s. as it did in 1816, he was convinced that the Noble Marquis would be the last man in the Coun try who would object to the importation of foreign eons to alleviate the distress, or rather the rarvation, , which would be occasioned by such a rise. Government did not propose, at all events, to exercise the poWer which they asked to have intrusted to them, they only.desired to be prepared to use it, if adverse circumstance.. should render the exercise of it necessary to preserve the coun try from famine. He did not wish Government to be intrusted with this power on the ground of any peculiar confidence being placed in them. It was a power which, in his opinion, under existing circumstances, ought to have been intrusted to any Miniary. It was theinterest of Government not to- abuse this power, and he wished their Lordships to rely upon that mote.t► an upon any confidence they might place in . them. It was not the intention of Ministers to exercise this power except upon the utmost emergency, and fur the purpose of saving their fellow-subjects from famine. It bad been objected that Government were willing to sacrifice the agricultural interests, in their negotiations with foreign countries, for the purpose of advancing their plan of a free trade. Now, in ord.r that their Lordships might judge as to how far this imputation was correct, be would state to their Lordships what answer had been returned to Prussia, which had endea voured to obtain favourable terms for the admission , of its corn, upon condition of taking our manufactures in return, and which answer was in substance as follows: That the British Government could never entertain a proposition for any alteration in the Corn Laws of this country which did not originate in the British domi nions themselves. This answer was re.urn*d in the month of Fobtuary last, aid he thoug ht it would pretty clearly evince the sentiments and fee l ngs Of Ministers on this subject, who, in doing away with that system, of prohibition which they ceitainly did wish to get rid of as far as it was possible, had refused even to make this a matter of negotiation. This, be thought, suffi ciently proved that Ministers were no enemies to the agricultural interests; they wished to look at the goes- Lion, taking the agricultural as well as all the other great interests of the country into consideration ; and they wished that a just and equitable arrangement should be coals to between aU parties, which should be settles' and final, as far as circumstances would admit of its being so. Sat be must again ob serve, that these measures hat nothing to do with the Corn Laws; they were special provisions to meet special Circumstance, and they wiauld nut be had recourse to unless the safety of the castarrY should require it. The Marquis of LANSDOWN said, that in rising to give his vote in favour of the motion of the Noble