Star. — London, England, 1813-01-27 00:00:00

- LAST INDIA NOM. TUf.SIIAY, JANUARY Ea, Thu General Court met at' eleven o'clock, when t l,e minutes of the last Court were read, and Sir H. ic o us informed them, that they were assembled to ta k e into farther consideration the momentous subject i n which they were all interested. Mr. KENNARD SMITR observed chiefly on that ar potent of Mr. Hume, which went to charge the C o mpany with interposing delays in the voyages of e e private trader. These delays, he asserted, were 72 t the fault of the Company but of the private :ruler t he was well acquainted with the fact, and inew that the Company's ships were frequently ready a month before the private merchant prepared his goo ds. He insisted, that the supply of his Majesty's T ory in the East Indies, which had hitherto been ef fected without expence to Government, would now I ,e impracticable : and on the point of remuneration, Le observed, that no possible means could be devised to furnish a sufficient compensation to the Company, unless the country were burdened with fresh taxel a for that purpose. Mr.TROWER, in an animated speech, insisted on the political dangers likely to ensue, if the mighty inte rests of the Company should be swept away for the sake of an experiment. That a weak Ministry should grasp at such a prize as the acquisitions of the Com pany was credible enough; but it was incredible, that the wisdom of Parliament would consent to such a measure, fraught as it would be with danger to the Constitution. Mr. BOSANQUET, after making some observations on the extent of the Indian empire, and on the con quests of the Company, which he said were made without a shilling expence to the country, proceeded to Mate, that the trade was as large in the hands of ' the Company, as it would be in the hands of private traders: he dilated on the danger which would accrue to the Company, if the India trade was lost : the loss of the China trade must follow; a loss which would not merely affect Great Britain, but all civi lized Europe. He combated the position maintain• ed in a certain publication, that one of the Princes should govern India: in his opinion no British Prince would be alive to interests so far distant from his native country. He was satisfied that the country was in a delusion as to the advantages which were expected from an extension of the trade, and the do cuments of the Company would prove it. He con cluded a speech of some length, by observing, that the efforts and the probable result of them, used by his Majesty's Ministers, brought to his mind a ludi crous string of vershs, which he thought very appli cable to the present case. They were these— Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall, Humpty Dumpty bad a great fall; All the King's horses, and all the King's men, Could not place Humpty Dumpty on his legs again ! . _ . (...1 laugh.) _ _ Mr. GRANT conceived, that the present question involved in it danger of two kinds—political and commercial. The Hon. Gentleman who had argued on the other side, had thought that there was no poli tical danger to be apprehended • but it had been clearly proved, by the able and eloquent' Proprietors who had already spokeii, that the political danger was the pre-eminently conspicuous feature of the case. This, however, had been so fully entered into, that he should confine himself to a commercial investiga tion. The Hon. Gentleman had produced a mass of documents, which made it necessary to go into the question at length. The Company rested their argu ments on two positions—that there can be no greater increase ofthe exports, nor any increase in thy sale of the imported goods. The first position was supported by the experience of ages : the nature, habits, and prejudices of the Indian people, rendered it impos sible to introduce 4niong them any of the products of foreign countries ; and from the time of the Romans there had been no instance of the introduction of such articles among them. In spite of this array of facts and experience, the Petitioners of the different manu facturing towns of Great Britain wish to try the ex periment of exporting their goods. The cutlers of Huddlestone, and the woollen-manufacturers of Wilt shire and Yorkshire, talk of the boundless advantages to be expected from a free trade with the immense re gions of Hindostan ; and the Petitioners of Sirefficld were perfectly enthusiastic at the view of the pecu liarly favourable prospects which an open trade would present to them. (if laugh.)—He must say, that the speech of the Hon. Gentleman had strongly a tendency to. fortify these delusions. The Hon. Gentleman had treated the subject as if therehad been an annual progressive rise of exports since the Act of 1793: the records of the Company, which. were the most authentic documents, disproved this argument ; and it should be observed, that till 1802, the importations were from Bengal only ; afterwards from all India.—ln 1795, the private trade, together with that of the Captains ail d Commanders,amou'nted to 31 lacks: but this was owing, in a great measure, to the Warehousing Act, by which persons were ex empted from many high duties ; yet it was pretty well known, that the trade which the Commanders and Officers carried on was frequently a losing one,. notwithstanding the many privileges which they en joyed. Another reason why the trade had increased since 1793, was the great increase of Empean popu lation in India; whereat' before that time, there were comparatively but few Europeans.settled in the East. The experience of the last 20 years taught him, that no new articles wereftent out, or were demanded in India. There were European merchants, and Native merchants, residing there, well acquainted with the wants and habits of the natives, and who, if any articles of consumptions were required, would be-the tirst to demand them. The Hon. Gentleman had quoted, as an opinion of Mr. Colebrook:, an asser tion, that trade with India might be increased to an indefinite extent. Mr. Colebrooke, in a subsequent publication s bad disclaimed the work from which that remark vas taken, except as far as related to subjects of husbandry and internal commerce. But even if Mr. C. had so asserted, high as his authority Was, yet he (Mr. G.) believed his own knowledge of this subject to be equal, and he felt himself of a totally different opinion. The Hon. Gentleman had argued in favour of the extrusion of the China trade, that in 1793 k amounted only to 4692,000 ; an 1803, to £1,300,000. But this was owing to the Commu tation Act ; and it should be recollected that the Com pany had been buying and selling at disadvantage the manufactures of the country—particularly those a wiltshire l which now petitioned--not from com. mercialAndness, as the Hon. Centletnttn hinted, but from a wish to 'aid the distressed manufactures of the kingdom, and an onwillingneseto lose, - on ac count of partial fluctuations, the benefit of that per manent system which they conceived to be useful— (Aitfiletne.) The Hon. Gentleman had dilated on the increase of the exports from India, he had stated that the exports, which in 1793, amounted-only to R 181,700,. in 1798 rose to £BBl,OOO, and in 1800, were at 5e1,700,000. Here the Honourable OM tleman had selected the best year ; for, in the list year, the exports were only estimated at £1,100,000. The whole amount, including private trade, and that of the Company's Comma n d ers , was irty two millions ; in this account fourteen millions con sisted of indigo. Of this indigo manufacture he thought it necessary to say a few words. In 1783, the Company were the sole purchasers of this com modity—they afterwards gave it to the manufac turers in India, and when it appeared likely to be come an advantageous source of traffic, it was re commended to Lord Cornwallis to encourage its growth and sale. This was previous to the Act of 1793, and not to that, but to the previous provisions of the Company, the increase of this article was to be referred. The destruction of St. Domingo also had much influence in advancing the sale of this commodity. As to the quantity of cotton imported, it was known that the Indian cotton could not com pete with the American, and that great quantities remained Unsold in the Company's warehouses. In fact, there were now unsold in their warehouses 42,000 bales of cotton, and 17,241 chests of indigo, the imports of the four last years.—(Hear, hear.) — And yet this was the trade which was quoted as an inducement to the British merchant to embark in undertakings which were likely to produce such ruinous results. The Honourable Gentleman had descanted on the impolicy of suffering the Americans to have a free trade, while the English were exclud ed :—the Company were no parties to those public acts of Government which granted that permission, and had done all that lay in their power to counter act the effect of their trading. But it should be re membered, that at the time when that permission was granted, the French and Dutch had possession. in India ; and that our ports were opened to the Americans, that they might be our customers, in. stead of being the customers of the French and Dutch. Afterwards, when the revolutionary war broke out, the Americans being neutrals, had advan tages over us, by being enabled to carry their com modities to ports, from which we, as belligerents ] were excluded. This circumstance of neutrality, which gave them so much the advantage over the Company, had been sunk by the Hon. Gentleman ; and yet what had been the increase ? The Hon. Gentleman, selecting those years which best suited his purpose, stated, that in 1800 it amounted to 19 lacks, in 1809 to 95 lacks : but a more impartial re view of the documents would shew, that in 1795-6 it amounted to 19 lacks, and in 1808 had only increas ed to 63 lacks :—and it was to be observed, that a very great proportion of the American export to India was in bullion—a very small quantity in their own manufactures. It was a singular fact, which the experience of forty years enabled him to adduce, that the exports from all India to all the world had not increased within that period : he was in India in 1768, and had minutely attended to the affairs ( f the ; Company since that time, and he was fuily able tes I advance this statement, which aloe, in his mind, shewed how little was to be expected from an open ing of the trade.— (Alifilutise.)—There were other reasons for the increase of the American trade. The first was, that the United Stites bad, on account of the war, an access for a considerable time to South America, from which we were excluded. It must also be considered, that the great increase of the po pulation of the United States gave an increased con sumption to tr.. imports from India. He must complain of the manner in which the Honourable Gentleman had quoted from the Exposition of the Court of Directors to the House of Commons.— He had quoted merely the loss on the Indian trade for one or two years, without quoting the produce of several years, when it was not a losing trade.— It appeared, that on the whole, there had been a profit of considerably more than a hundred thousand pounds annually. He would allow that this did not include the India duties, which would otherwise have been imposed. It never appeared to him that the profits of this trade was, by itself, an object of much importance to the Company ; but it was of great portance as connected with the whole of the Indian system. When the Company were called upon to re. sign that, he conceived that they were called upon to resign a great deal more than the trade ; they were Called upon to resign the system of Government in Bengal. (Applause.) He did not wish to appear as if he intended to cast reflections on the Hon. Pro. prietor for the part be had taken ; but he could not avoid complaining of his having revived, upon this occasion, all the controversies in which the Company had been engaged for the last eighteen years, many -4 which appeared to have been completely set at rest. Whether the trade ought now to be enlarged farther than was ever in contemplation in the year 1793, was a separate question : but this he would confidently say, that nobody at that day had contem ' plated its being enlarged as far as it now is by the consent of the Company. He, therefore, could see no beneficial purpose in ripping up those old disputes and controversies. The Honourable Proprietor (Mr. Hume) had treated the whole subject as if it had been merely a commercial question ; whereas every other Gentleman who had spoken, considered it more as a political question, involving the vital interests of the Indian Empire, and the titution of this country. To come soberly to the ration of the question, as it now stands, he wo y that there was no rational prospect of increasing the trade 1 to India, materially, beyond what it is at present. 1 He knew it was hard to convince Gentlemen who were embarked in a cause, and heated in it, as per haps the Delegates of the Out-ports might be ;—hut as to the merchants who hoped profit from it, which appeared so improbable, he would ask them, what they meant to do, when they had once pulled down the old and venerable fabtick of the East India Com pany ? Lord Melville could see no means of gover ning India well, but through the Company. Lord Buckinghamshire said but little of his own opinions, or of those of Ministers, but referred to those of the manufacturers, some of which he had already stated to them. So that without any steady opinions eater., % • - .11. • tallied by his Majesty's present Ministers, the ques. tion was, whether the East India 'Company Wore now to be sacrificed to the clamours which had been raised by some manufactured t (Aiiiikete.), Con ceiving the case of the Company to stand on every firm ground of reason, justice, and policy, he hoped that it would be supported by the judgment of an en lightened public, and by the decision of Parliament. (After Mr. Grant had sat down the applause conti nued for some minutes.) Mr. MORRIS related, with strong emotions, a fact which had taken place in India. The natives had been ill-treated by a private trader,- and, without waiting the law's delay, they rose in a body and massacred Mr. Martin. Mr. TWINING (the Director) said, that having taken a part in the discussion of 1793, he could not consent to remain silent upon the present occasion. He thought the negociatioas of the former period ought to have inculcated this lesson,—that it is better to trust to' experience, than run the hazard of dan gerous experiments. (40/astre.)—He thought that the ablest men of the present day could not expect to gain a character of wisdom, by treating lightlx.the opinions of such m en as M r . Pi tt an d t h e Late Lord Melville. He then read some extracts from the opi nions of those Gentlemen, favourable to the interests of the Company. The Hon. Proprietor . (Mr. Hume) in talking of the increase of the trade, appeared not to have considered that this was more apparent than real, as he had not adverted to the increase of prices, which was one of the principal causes of this apparent increase. (i/m/aese.)—lf the Petitioners now suc ceeded in their demands, he did not know whether the Company had more to fear from their failure or their success. If they succeeded, it could be only by taking the Company's trade from them; and if they failed, they would lay it entirely on the remaining re strictions, and would not be satisfied until the Com pany had given up every thing: He 'had listened with much attention to the Hon. Proprietor; but he thought that Hon. G ent l e m a n cou ld h ar dl y a d v i se the Court of Proprieters seriously to prefer his single opinion to the unanimous opinion of the Court of Di rectors, as well as of the other Proprietors who had spoken. He must most completely disagree with him respecting the tone of the communications of the Directors—nothing could be farther from their thoughts than a defiance of Ministers. As to the ar gu nent about their trade to India being a losing one, he would ask, was there a commercial man who would not feel it necessary to continue some parts of his trade, even although Ile should partially lose by them, iii orar to preserve the wltole by which he was a gainer ? (4tfilause.)-11, therefore, this was a mere commercial question, and that there was a loss on the India trade, it did not follow that the Company should wish to abandon it ; but it had been stated by almost every speaker, that the question was more a political than a commercial one. As to the question of smuggling, if, as the trade is now regulated, and notwithstanding all the care and attention paid by the Company to prevent illicit trade, it is still found impossible absolutely to prevent it, how much harder would it b... when the owners of ships trading to India may be themselves interested in. the illicit trade, and perhaps merely depending upon that for I profit in their speculations ?--;(.4lpida3re.) The intor mation which he had received hum a Commissioner of Excise was, that probably for the future, smug gling would increase to an enormous degree. Mr. RANDLE JACKSON cited the opinion of Mr. Fox in 1793, to slew, that whatever ulterior views he might have had respecting the patronage of India, he never wished to take from -the Company its com merce. He had said, " that it even.,the Govatmtent were to manage the territories, it would be absolutely necessary that the trade should be carried on by a Company, without which the revenues could not be made available to the interests of the Empire." A good deal had been said about the opinion of the Commissioners of Excise; but when Government chose to lay n string of questions before any of its Boards, it was generally found that very complaisant answers were returned. In this case, however, the Commissioners had reported that Liverpool was a port, which would be very favourable to smuggling, and that there was only one dock there, in which the India trade would be tolerably protected. The other out-ports they seemed to consider still worse, and al lowed, that it would be necessary that the ships bound to them should lae attended by revenue cruizers. They particularly recommended, that no ships should be allowed to sail round the North of Scotland. It ap peared to him, upon she whole, that their opinion was only as to a choice among evils, but that they by no means thought that the extension sought for would not be an evil. The CHAIIIMAN then stated, that by the courtesy of the Court, Mr. Hume, who moved the amend ment, would be allowed to reply ; but he intreated that Gentleman to con fi ne himself to explanations of the points in which he conceived himself to be misre presented, and not argue the whole question again. Mr. Hume then ruse, and said that be was fully sensible of the indulgence with which he had been heard ; but, at the same time, he begged the Court to recollect, that he bad been the single speaker of that side, and he therefore thought that some kind of balance might be made between the numbers and quantity. if there had been any other speaker to answer the witty and luminous observations which had been made on his prolixity, he might probably not have wished to trouble them again ; but when there had been such a host of speakers on the other side, many of them attacking him perionally and many attempting to refute his statements and his facts, he thought it absolutely necessary for him to be indulged with the liberty of reply. Instead of the regular order, he should beg leave first to reply to what had fallen from the last Gentleman, and so to proceed from the bottom to the top. The last Hon. and Learned Gentleman (Mr. Jackson) had attached great weight to the opinions of those men who were in favour of his argument, but appeared to treat as of no weight the opinions of Ministers, aided by the advice and experience of the Boards of Excise and Customs. He did not believe that such Boards would, out of mere complaisance, deliver opinions contrary to their own judgment and knowledge of the matters referred to them. An Hon. Director had relied on it as the foundation of his argument, that the trade to and froth India could not be increased—. Mr. GRANT said, in explanation, that what he had said was, that there could be no material increase. The ilaT. Mr, T11180(44, and one or two other • I. Proprietors, spoke to order. They conceived that Mr. Hume was disorderly in entering into a general reply, instead of explanation. - The CHAIRMAN, however, having desired him to proceed, Mr. Hume resumed. He denied altogether any irregularity, as the rule that he had hitherto observed, was strict submission to the Chair. He then re-as serted his former statement, and contended that Mr. Grant was wrong in not having made the allow anc e s that were necessary for the Indian duties, which would In many cases have been of themselves profit enough for a private trader. He al;o contended, that from his own spewing, the trade of India had been a losing one to the Company, if those deduc. tions had been made. As to the cotton which was stated to be unsold in the Company's warehouses, it was not more than half, of one year's consumption, nor the indigo more than a third. This„appeared to him to be no very serious quantity, and it had not appeared what was the quality of those goods which remained unsold, or what were the prices asked for ' them. An Honourable Proprietor (Mr. Davis) had stated, that he could have oistained tonnage from the , Company for 5000 tons any time these ten years.—.. This was' a statement which ought not to go to the public unanswered. It had been proved, that a very serious expence had been incurred by the private traders for demurrage; and he would appeal to any 1 ' person concerned in the agency of ships, whether there had not been many instances in which they had applied for tonnage without being able to procure it ? Mr. DAVIS then rose, and spoke for some tithe in explanation. Mr. Jacicsos: spoke to order, and thought it not r right to attempt toibear down an individual by such frequent interruptions. Mr. Davis, or any other Gentleman, might explain when the speech ended ; but it was not one speaker out of a hundred who could preserve the chain of his reasoning amidst such repeated interruptions. Mr. Ht'sae then proceeded to advert to the speech c l 1 of Mr. Robert Grant, who had called his facts hie. levant and inconclusive. This expression had been received with great applause from the Court, al. t though the Honourable Gentleman had prudently abstained from meddling with any of those facts.-d- He had called the Edinburgh Review, an abusive publication ; and he had censured it for arguing now from any thing which had taken place in 1788. A.. The Honourable Gentleman had, however, himself • taken the very same course, nod had argued from the abuses in the Slave Trade, and even so far Lack 1 as from the inegularities in India in Lord C:ive's time, against the merchants of Liverpool and Bristol at the present day. He admired, as much as ally other man, the tine, flowery, and metaphorical lan. l guage of that Hon. Proprietor; —but he had misre. presented him much, in stating that his opinion was, that the extension of the trade would be unbounded, and consequently the intercourse between the natives 1 and Europeans would be u n b oun d e d. H e h ad con. 1 ccived that the trade would be much increased, but r. he did not consider that this increase would be un. bounded. As to all the evils which ha.ebeen imagin.- ed from the Government taking the administration into its own hands, his answer was, that Government had: not proposed to do any such thing. Another Hon. Proprietor had said, his speech was fitter fur the meridian of Liverpool than for that Court.— He would ask, however, how a speech, which tested entirely on faits within their knowledge, respecting the trade to India, could be irrele vant i n t h at C our e? One Gentleman had called him the organ of Lord Buckinghamshire and tlit Ministers. Did that Gen- , tleman also consider Mr. Waith man as the own of ' Ministers in the Common C ounc il ? That Geri& man had taken a part upon this occasion, which, he thought, had done him infi n i te honour. (Murmur:4 - One Gentleman had said, that not a thirtieth part of his speech was relevant to the question, and yet had: expressed a great desire that the whole should be pub. lished. He must own he could nut perceive how a speech so irrelevant as it bad been describ e d, cou ld be of service either to one side or the other. He would indeed confess, that he was an ungrateful man (as i had been hinted) if, having been long in .the service of the Company, he was now to be their enemy. He • disclaimed the imputation which had been cast against him on this point. He was no enemy to the Company,h but their true friend. If any Ministers were now too wish to take their trade, or their territory, from'them.l there was no man who would be a more zealous ad. ; vocate for their rights than he would be—(Aptlatur.) The present Ministers, however, had attempted no such thing. The petitioners had only. requested to be allowed to participate in that part of the trade, which he thought he had demonstrated to be a losing one, anti which would appear to be a losinx one even front the statement of th e H onoura bl e Di ' rector (Mr. Grant), if those deductions which oughq ' fairly to be made were taken f rom i t . H e w i s h e d that the Company should flourish as a tree, under wltose refreshing shade the population of India mighi find protection; but wishing we ll to the tree, NI thought that the skilful knife of the pruner might hi this case be exerted without injuring its luxuriance., His argument about the increase of the Americaq trade was this ; that the commercial world absolutely required so much of Indian produce, and thatiL the n Americans had not been allowed to supply.t British' Merchants would have done it. The question was thou put on Mr. Hume's amend. ment, which was negatived almost unanimously. Mr. WETLAND then brought forward his Resolve tions, in somewhat of a more compressed form that Ihe had originally introduced them. He trusted that the question had been now sufficiently discussed, and that they might be presented to the Court without further delay. Mr. IMPEY supported these Resolutions, althougt he should have wished them shorter. He expatiatei for some time on the necessity of the persons in Wilt shire and other places, who were benefited by du Company, coming now forward in their support. , The CHAIRMAN, in putting the questions on du Amendment and original Resolutions, made some observations to the Court.—As to the patronage o the Directors in India, if any one of them could b base enough to recommend the carrying on a losin; trade from that motive, it would be exactly the sam as before.—He concluded with some comments o. the speech of Mr. Hume. The original Resolutions were then put and carrie unanimously, with the exception of Mr. flume mg) aad the Court adjourned.