Star. — London, England, 1812-06-12 00:00:00

r nee of the Sovereign with an Address like that • I which had just been proposed. He asTeed with the last speaker, that the Hon. i;entlem .n ( Mr. S. Won. ley) had put the question on a wrong tooting, as he had not founded it on the situation of the country.— He strongly objected to the Govarnment of the coun try being entrusted to men who had been voted in competent, an:. particularly to the Right 1-I,•nourablel Gentleman now at the head of the finances of the cotnitry ( Mr. N. Vansittart) whose appointment by the bye had been the occasion of the Hen. Gentleman r man giving his notice for that address, which had been tarried up to the Prince Regent. He objected to him, as I being the great advocate of the present currency of the country. He could not reconcile himself to the idea of seeing the Government of the country intrusted to the men, who eight years ago, were declared to be Unfit to carry it on, when Mr. Pitt and Mr. Fox laid aside their rivalry to put them down. These, how ever, were the men, to whom, now under more trying circumstances, their deteriorated country was to be entrusted. He gave his Hon. Friend (Mr. S. Wortley) credit for a sincere wish to see a strong Ad ministration formed, but he thought the-Address he had proposed, did not go sufficiently far, and that not to go further, would lay the House open to im putations of pusillanimity. After some farther ob - nervations, the Noble Lord proposed an Address, ex.- pressing regret that the expectations held out by the Prince Regent's answer to the Addressof that House, had not yet been realised, assuring him of a conti nuance oaf their zealous support in such measures as they conceived to be most conducive to its interests at borne and abroad, and imploring him no longer to defer forming such an Administration as would be at once entitled to the support of Parliament and the sountry. The SPEAKER observed, the Noble Lord could not move his Address at present. The sense of the House' could not be taken on it till that- already be fore it was negatived. He could therefore only be con sidered as hiving given notice, that he would move an Address when the proper time came. Mr. M. MONTAGUE, though he could not thins the present Administration so good as might be wish ed, thought it equil to any that could be formed by the opposite party. They had formed part of an Adnainistrati( n which had carried on the business of the country for a long time, and who had in his opi nion, and he believed in the opinion of the public, carried the glory of the country to a higher pitch than it had ever been carried before. Pie eulogized the conduct of the Prime on the present occasion ; lamented the disposition which appeared in the Ad ministration to depart in some measure from that wise system on which they had long acted with re spect to the Roman Catholics, but stated it to be his intention to give therwhis assistance and support, un influenced by any private motive. Mr. G. VANSITTART adverted to the conduct of the Sovereign on a former occasion, when the House of Commons interfered with his right to ap point his Ministers; by resolving that they had a right to advise his Majesty on all occasions. This Resolution was come to on the 21st March, and on the 24th, the King dissolved the Parliament, to take the sense of the people on the subject, a resolution which was fully justified by the event. He could not do better than read a part of an Address from Berk shire, which was voted on that occasion, as it con tained what had always been his sentiments on that question, sentiments which he yet felt no disposition to change. He then proceeded to read part of an Address approving of that constitutional right which the Sovereign possesses to choose his own Ministers, and deprecating any attempt •to trench upon that right. Such attempts, if encouraged, would convert the Government of this country from the best to the worst of all Governments—as it would take from us a limited Monarchy, -and give us in its place a turbu. lent Democracy. Sir T. TURTON lamented those circumstances which had withheld from the services of the country, the great talents of the Right Honourable Lords Grey and Grenville. The Honourable Baronet main. tained that the prerogative of the Crown would be surrendered into the hands of an- oligarchy, if the Household Officers were to be placed entirely at the disposal of the Ministers. At the same time he meant nothing invidious against the characters of the two Noble Lords who were the objects of the late propo sals for forming an extended Administration in con formity with the vote of this House. With respect , to the principles upon which an Administration should act at the present crisis, he could not avoid observing that one of the topics upon which the discussions with those Noble Lords proceeded, namely—the Orders in Council, as a preliminaiy to the accept ance of office, was of the utmost importance. In his opinion, if those Orderi were not repealed, this country wculd in a few months be in a dreadful situation, in a situation little short of civil war. As to the conduct of the Marquis Wellesley, there was nothing in that conduct to excite animadversion. Much had been said of "personal animosities," but he believed, that as far as respected the communication between the Noble Marquis and the two Noble Lords, there was something like a personal indisposition in the two No ble Lords to kin the Noble Marquis, and at such a moment as the present, he thought personal feelings ought to have nothing to do wi;11 public men. The salvation of their country should be their' first object. He hoped, that notwithstanding what had passed, the sountry would still have the services of the Noble Marquis and the Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Canning). As to the measures which might be ne cessary to be pursued, if the war in the Peninsula was to be carried on, he was for carrying it forward on an extended scale. Mr. D. GIDDY observed, that when tlte-Address was voted, be was one of those who concurred in opi nion with the Member for Yorkshire, and on the present occasion, when there was most assuredly a great sensation excited in the country in conse quence of that vote, it became the House to exercise the transcendent power with which they were invest ed with discretion. He had heard from some Gen tleman, that there were extreme cases when it was ne cessary to interpose between the Crown and the Go vernment, and by a vote of Parliament prevent the Government of the country from being placed in the liaads wholly of the Crown. There could not, bow ever, be a more inconvenient mode of proceeding than in tollowi:tg up an extreme case of the kind alluded. Ito, by Rutting a negative on the Prerogative of the Crown. It had been said that this House had come Walpole's administration. The oMce was then cot. to a vote upon the necessity of forming an efficient sidered not to be one in which much of political•bias Admini , tration upon an extended scale. Undoubted- WAS infused. 'he Lord Steward of the House.l ly they had done so, b ut un d er w h at c i rcumstances ) h o ld an d the Master of the Horie were similarly , a notice of the motion had been only given the prece- circumstanced in the reign of king William ; the ding day. At that time an opinion was entertained, Mister of the Horse was continued during the whole; that the delay of a few minutes in coming to the vote, of it. He now came to the present reign, as he did would have given a majority against the motion.— not wish to detain the House with going through the Tf Gentlemen adverted to what passed on the same list, and he found that in 1761 Lord Talbot was ap- evening shortly after the division, they must be pointed Lord Steward of the Household, which of satisfied that such would have been the fact.— fice he filled till 1781 ; during that interval political [lf, however, e xtrem e cases were to h e enterta i n -' conflicts were as warm as at any period, and as much ed, the very dictation of the Head of the Execu- zeal was shewn by parties. The Duke of Montague I tiXe was in effect taxing the whole of the Government ! was made Master of the Horse from 1781 to 1790. 'into the hands of Parliament. But the House would, But these appointments were acquiesced in without recollect, that though one branch of the Legislature complaint, during all the political squabbles which had expressed an opinion upon the subject, the other 1 tlen took place ; and were not called into question, branch bad not expressed any opinion at all; they I from motives of delicacy, and a conviction that the 'f . had not stated their disapprobation of the Ministry.: offices were distinct from political considerations. Was this House then to adopt the language of con- What happened' in 1782 ? At that period Lord troul ? A Noble Lord had put the question on a I North was compelled to retire, and from attention to much beuer ground for discussion than the Mover of t the Sovereign's feelings, the nomination of one the Address. He deprecated the conduct which `member of the old Government was conceded to the s brought before the public the proceedings in the ne- ; Sovereign—for the Chancellor, Lord Thurlow, was gociations for forming an extended Administration, allowed to re m a i n i n t h e C a bi net . Th e di v i s i ons and as highly inexpedient, and on other occasions as tend- parties which succeeded the secession of Lord North, ing to embarrass the Government.—(Hear,hear, !) at the head of which were the Marquis of Rocking- Nor was he aware how those, discussions could have ham and the Earl of Shelburne, made no objection been put forth without infringing the oath which some :to the seleition of the Sovereign. If, therefore, the of the parties had taken, as Privy Councillors, which Chancellor was then suffered to remain, delicacy on oath of course precluded them from divulging any the present occasion might be attended to—at lean thing which passed between their Royal Master and it was required. What, however, was the conduct themselves.— (Hear, hear!) The simple question now of the Gentlemen opposite ? Disappointed of the di under consideration was, whether the present Mini- : rection of the Councils of the State, the proclama. sters could be safely trusted to m a n ag e the a ff a i rs of ; t i on o f secret i n fl uence was soun d e d f rom a quarter, I the-State ? And in deciding upon that question, the ; which, if founded in truth, furnished reflection- on the Noble Lord had contended, that a vote of this House : Sovereign himself. If those to whom the communica had driven them from office in 1808, and therefore • tions were made for coming into power, possessed in they were not competent to manage the resources of ', reality that love for country for which he (Mr. J.) had the country, to carry on the war, and wield the ener-1 given them credit, they, as true patriots, would h ave gies of the State in this moment of peril and of di ffi - I accepted o ffi ce, and have endeavoured to a c hi eve t or culty. But he would ask the Noble L or d, w heth er i t , their country those blessings which they considered was not fair to compare this country with other coun- were necessary. The Hon. Gentleman was prepared tries, which ever since the time alluded to, had been to support any administration having for its object wrested fiom the domination of their lawful Sove- the good of the State r and he should be inclined to reigns. England had, under the Administration de- support Lord Moira as Premier, and Mr. Whitbread cried by the Noble Lord, defended the cause of the as Chancellor of the Exchequer (A laugh,) for Peninsula with credit to herself; and if it was proper among the schemes which had run in his head, in to defend that cause, of necessity great expences must respect to the formation of an efficient Administration, have been incurred, for great exertions were called that was one which appeared to him as feasible, and for. The Hon. Gentleman declared that he should likely to be ultimately beneficial to the countsy. But not vote either for the Address of the Hon. Gentle- it seemed that the Gentlemen opposite were not fond man, nor the Amendment of the two Noble Lords, of coalitions. The question was, whether the House thinking the interference of Parliament incompatible was determined to force them into power and give with the principles upon which he had generally acted. them the whole controul ? He waS prepared to ad- At thisame time, he did not mean to say that he mit, that there was a seeming inconsistency in rune • would oppose any Address which contained expres. Gentlemen coming back to office ; but if he could e sions that to him appeared unobjectionable. He ex- see any thing better for the country, he would most • i pressed his entire confidence of the character of Lord readily adopt it, if not he should support the present Moira, as a man of the strictest integrity and most Administration, He could not think so meanly of unblemished reputation. them as other Gentlemen. Had not the Government Mr. TIGHE differed in opinion from the Hon. received an accession of strength in my Lord Sid- 1 1 Baronet, in his view of an oligarchy, for he thought mouth ? Was he not ainan of integrity and of talents . ; that if the last proposal of the Noble Lord Moira had courted by Mr. Pitt, nay, even by the de Talents ?" !been accepted, namely, of unrestricted power, then, —What was the occasion of the difference which the I indeed, the Councils of the State would have been Noble Lord had with Mr. Pitt, and which led to the t'surrendered into the hands of a de s p er a te an d i n . res i gnat i on ? Wh y , t hi s — t h at h e wou l d not, i n vul i noxious oligarchy.—( Hear, hear I)—Ministers were gar language, ~ go through thick and thin." He, responsible for that power. The Hon. Gentleman with Mr. Bond, resisted one of the mostflagrant Jobs i i who moved the address had said nothing about se- that ever came before Parliament, the case of the Icret influence, but he could not deny that he had not Duke of Athol, and consequently resigned. It was ' heard of such influence—lt had reduced America, not true, that he was driven from office ignomini. ; and was now to be fanned in a Cabinet surrounded ously. In that assertion he was justified by what a by a Cabinet of another description. It was undoubt- relation of his had told him, the late Sir Wm. Pulte edly the prerogative of the Crown to appoint the Mi- ney • to that respectable man th e Nobl e L or d h a d , I nisters, but was it not the duty of this Hou s e to ap - stated as his reasons for quitting office, 46 that he felt peal against appointments which were not for the be- he held office only with the unreserved confidence of nefit of the State ? The present Ministers had twice his Sovereign, that in this contest he found that Mr. ,relinquished their offices, confessing thereby their in. Pitt and Mr. Fox were in unison ; that if the should' capacity—They were the relicts ofthe Pitt Admini. draw closer together, Ile could not retain that confi.' stration, the rump of the rump of that Government. dente, and he found it necessary to retire in the ear. With respect to the Address, he did not expect the ly stage of the contest, to escape those difficulties and , Hon. Gentleman would have thrown cold water upon evils which were evidently arising." The merits of his former Address, by moving such an Address as the Noble Lord *ere recognized, and were never ) the present. He thought the House would relinquish • more apparent than in the efficient way in which he their duty, if they c`..d not follow the line prescribed got over the taxes. In 1806, upon the appointment et in the original vote. i the s , Talents," those merits we re f a i r ly an d j ust l y Mr. JOHNSTONE and Mr. GRATTAN rose acknowledged. The Administration of the Noble at the same time • the call for Mr. Grattan was uni- Lord practised self-de n ial, an d went out o f o ffi ce i n versal, but the f ormer caught the Speaker's eye. ' a commendable manner, which was not to be avoie The Hon. Gentleman was anxious to explain his ded—(a laugh.) The fact was so ; but what *as the sentiments, though happy to hear the eloquence of the fact with respect to Mr. Fox and my Lord Gren- Right Hon. Gentleman opposite. The Sovereign, he ville ? They were untried ; but when tried did they 4 observed, had a clear, acknowledged, and undis. ' quit office with a reputation for abilities as high as puted right to nominate the Household—that was before they came into office ?—(Hear, hear.) Did recognized from the Revolution downwards, and. their esteditions, to the Dardanelles, to Egypt, and this he would shew, in utter contradiction to the to various parts of the world, justify the expectations doctrine maintained by the Hon. Gentleman who which had been previously entertained of them ? For had assumed, that when the Officers of the House.. himself, the Hon. Gentleman disclaimed all party hold were appointed by the Sovereign, tbe reign of spirit ; because when he found upon any occasion the secret influence began to exist. That was a doctrine • pniplic voice was against the Ministers, he f. •Ilowed which he thought had been long exploded, and which : the voice of the public. Now, as to the measures of none but the most vulgar would have again broach- the Government, he was one of those who never did ed. The cry was generally raised by a party, when- approve of the Orders in Council. He thought that ever a combination of talents were called into the the affairs of America presented a critical aspect ; service of the Sovereign. It was so when Lord but it would be too much to assume that Govern. Bute was about the Royal Person, and might have t went would not take such measures as should restore I had move weight, when it was recollected that his the relations of amity with that Poser. As to the early connection with his Majesty led to such a sup- financial difficulties under which the country labours, position. If it ever did exist, that Nobleman might he had every reliance upon the abilities and know be charged with it : but what was the fact ? all the ledge of his Right Hon. Friend at the head of that letters which he published, to the close of his life, department. He saw, however, no means of extrica. completely contradicted the charge ; for he con - tion from the di f f i culties which surround us , by any 4 plained of the neglect of t h e Court, and was it vote of the kind adopted some days ago. The Ho -1 likely that he would have been neglected ? The cry nourable Gentleman concluded with stating his de followed the steps of Mr. Pitt and Lord Grenville, termination to support the motion for the Addleess. when they came into power; and those Ministers Mr. GRATTAN was not dispose.' to trouble the knew that it was a mere cry ; that it really had no House with many...observations ; but some remarks existence, but that it was the cry of those who were f having been made upon the conduct of the two No disappointed of place and of power. (Hear, hear.) ble Lords Grey and Grenville, he thought thei,situ. He would read a list of the various Officers of the anion required very great consideration and forbear- Household from the Revolution to the present time ance. In thepart which they had taken during the nego. —(if laugh.) In looking over that list, it would be ciations, they appeared to have made cvery effort for seen that if matter of complaint arose as to the in. their country, which to their minds seemed consis fluence they posfessed, that complaint was seldom if fent with their duty. They were restrained from ever followed by a change of the Officers when a new taking office (the love of office and the love of power Ministry clime into power. In commencing with not being predominant) from a conviction that they the names, he fauns& the Duke of Ormond Lord could not be of any service to their country. The Chamberlain from 1660 to the Revolution in 1688; House must know that the refusal of office is a crime then the Duke of Devonsfkire was appointed, and he, very few men would be guilty of ; it was an event held the office till 1707. Passing over some inter- very seldom found in the annals of history.. Gentle. mediate appointhunts, he found that in 17'24 the men would recollect, that in accepting office a Mini- Duke of Grafton was appointed, and he held the ster was not likely to exalt his reputation, unless he office till 1757, a period of thirty-two years, amidst possessed the confidence of his Sovereign : it was not all those changes and various political conflicts which desirable that any Minister, let his opinions be right agitated the country, particularly in Sir Robert or wrong, should be liable to have those opinions con- t bt ute ter j no b t y a ‘ c n c ds e ° t p h d at t: hi er e ef eKcc i o io n on ffi nin i gfi c u d e e :. enenif ee l che 'l e ;e ofod t n dp i di n en n it;e a r ad li pos,m4o f7 :est h b ,L ibcc „: i r io o hn u efi l d d peno posses sceseueof he would lose the other. and if the confidence Sovereign was withheld, then t h e l oss of the ern must follow. The Household h a d certainly - been considered in 1t political point of view , certainly important ; but if the Noble Lords Glee' 8 d CI ville thought that it was possible there might h e Cabinets, a political Cabinet responsible, and a Hill hold Cabinet, irresponsible, they acted wisely thought disinterestedly, ant honestly most cert in refusing to accept office. If such was thee, nion, this House had no right to question theire duct. The Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Johnstone) made some allusion to Lord Sidmouth and hale ministration, and the opinions of the two Nobku, to whom he had just referred were in far= tifi Catholic claims. He rejoiced to hear from Ansi from the N oble Lord (Castlereagh) th at she", Lion was not to be opposed by the Admini tt o collectively, but it must be recollected that Loeti mouth was a decided enemy_to th at meesureigi in so doing, he acted, no aubt, from coast motives. That circumstance had induced a 4 him that the negociation of the Marquis IV* had come to a - better conclusion ; the wh o l e o r d parties named in the negociation were h oaotrd men, and had performed a conscientious p a e. ' consequently were little liable to animadversea, Mr. ELLIOT would not take up the timid ' House as the question lay in a very narrow coa~sl o. was in fact a question of great and paramonak e l stitutional importance. To the House of Larded Commons the deliberate power of approval de Government.belonged ; and to the Crown, them berative power of choosing its Ministers. lei House of Commons was vested the powerofwg tiving that appontment of Ministers--of refue l' support the choice, until that choice was saucem by the confidence of the people. The centrcelefe House is the very vital principle of the Coatis* What had passed hitherto on the subject? Ave had been come to, stating the sense which thislhe entertained of the necessity of making a string a, efficient Administration, implying thereby that Administration then in power did not possessive' fidence of Parliament, nor correspond with delete of the country. What is the consequence vote ? The Gentlemen exercising the poet:nit; Government resigned their situations. A cc= nication was made to the House, in aarwer to d Address from the Prince Regent, expressing hied termination to comply with the wishes of theca= and the Ministcrs, that they were requested win the r situations ud inkriw. Well I three seeks ekes land nothing further was heard, till one of thetas ' Ministers came down to the House two days Ins l and informed' Parliament of a circnnuunce nil the House should take care does not prove the dale, of its character and authority—(Hear, a...) Wirt was that circumstance ? Why, the comneeicain of the fact, that his Royal Highness in answer to vote of the House, calling for a stronger and na l efficient Administration, had returned neon thew" try the very Administration of which they compiles ed t—(lirar, hear.) The Honourable Gentian; (Mr. S. Wortley) hid stated, and assumed ,men propositions, as arising in the negociatioa ism the Marquis Wellesley and his Noble Friends, Did he would pass over, and advert to the other, sib last negociation with the Noble Earl (Wirt) 4 . 0 had certainly made a communication which was . I for serious consideration--but when his Noblefinek desired to know whether they were to be mood with full powers of controul over the whole di State Offices ? The Noble. Earl expressed his from entering into any discussion of that quest* , It therefore they had sacrificed their authority by ceptance of office, under the tams catered, would have divested themselves of all respolnhTle over the State, and have recognised • that fa which, of all others, was most dangerous, awn divid rig the Court from die Government hear.) The concession of the point w. shewn the value annexed to the influence, whit fluence, in conjunction,with anotb.r Houseisehl to the Government, would have formed a molt . cant barrier against the power of the Consul Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Cartwright) denied the fact, but did not Lord Moira car ry minute of the conversation to the Prince, is that the impediment in respect to the might be removed. The advisers of the Crews, ever, adhered to the principles they wished total's' tain. Tim Houseboat remains as it was, and measures on which his Noble Friends alone coailda: cept office, were not abandoned, namely, cooceloads to the Catholics, and the repeal of the Orders $ Council. Oia the other pofist titre had bcen a coy promise, for the Ministers completely abjured . das trust. Two mouths ago they declared, Mat e d the unanimous opinion of the Cabinet, that the tion of the admitstou of Catholic Colonels tri rank of Geuerals could not be entertained :tile, declete themselves of a different opinion. would the friends of the Church say to this ; W would the Judge of the Prerogative Court, the Mese bet for Oxford, say, wren l:e found that those ob ir ci Ministers had drunk the dregs of the cup of p humiliation ?—(Llear.) The question for the 1 400 to decide was, whether on these grounds they suffer a vote to be frustrated smog they °lobo -come to, recollecting that the authority which that vote in those critical times was an authors', nesting from the people ?—(Hear, hear.) Mr. BAT'HURS'r said, it was im possible to . !'what had passed during the last three weeks , r out of sight, when the motions before the Hou se the speeches of Gentlemen were taken into conside! Or. Lion. It was contended that in consequerc e Address of the House some change in the Ado . tration must take place. Negotiations to "ba ler c it h w an a g s e d h u a e d to bee th n ose se i t od o i n vid foo uau t, the grounds on which those n The Right Hon. Gentleman then entered at . rE 'into the negotiations between the Earl of Moos sti: Lords Grey and Grenville, and contended tillair d eg co t oc he n i y a cern t ha ton e d i d ia h ti a lg "r latter Noble Lords, in insisting on the rielle, 4o 7 . pointing the Household, as a preliminary: trenching on the prerogative of the Crown ; dam By AN it was a proceeding unprecedented. too s kis Royal Hightteup therefore, oh- the s l I 1 ) 1 1 I 1