Star. — London, England, 1830-03-13 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS-FRIDAY. After evVence•had been given at the bar in support of 3lusltett's o . .voree. the hill 'was resit a seennd ti.tte, and ordered to be emu. nzittetl on Ain/Iday. The Duke of Mt /NTRO'4I presented a notition from Dum barton, against the renewnl of toe East India Comnany's chimer. bore /W ER presented petitions from Iturilem an 1 another pLust in Staffircishite. against the trick system (we believe.) r;:r ALEX. AVT Old ether members of the n oo se of Commons brought up a message. giving Sir Edward Uccle East, a member of that house, leave to attend their lordships' select committee, sitting PP the inquiry into the atfairs of Indis, to give evidence. if ALEX. GRANT. with other members. brought up a copy of , the Dloss•trit to the :ith !tenon of the Select Committee, appointed Ir 1812. on the ..thret of India Affairs, which report was delivered to the House of Lords on the 22d of July of that year, but the falessery was we then annex , d to the Report. Lord STANLEY, Admiral SOTIIERON, Me. CORPETT, with other Members, brotig:it three private bills, all of which were read a first time. 's person presented at the bat the report of the account of the Central Penitentiary for the last year. Sense private bills were read a third time, among which we b-sieve was Lord Ellenborough's Divorce Bill. IRISH POOR. tarp DARNLEY, after referring to the resolution which passed the preceding night in the House of Commons, for the appointment of select c•tmmittee, to take into consideration the state of the poorer classes in Ireland, with a view of affording the beat means of improving their condition, said, that at an early day he should take an opportunity of calling the attention of their lordships to the sabject. COALS. The Marquis of BUTE presented a petition from the inhabitants of the town and neighbourhood of Cardiff, against the Duties on lwals carried coastwise.—Referred to the Select Committee on the ‘'o.ll Trade. TRADE TO CHINA. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said that he held in his hand a petition to which he begged, very shortly, to call their bonlships' attention. The petition was the first that the parties had conjointly agreed to, although they had signed separate petitions on the same subject; it was the petition of the merchants of the City of London, engaged in the East India trade. (Hear.) The petitioners, as lie had already intimated, had at different periods expressed their opinions, which were unfavourable to the renewal of the East India Company's Charter, in its present form.—but never In conjunc. tion before. It had been asserted that the merchants trading to India from London entertained different notions from those engaged in similar pursuits from the outports, with respect to the trade to Canton. Although their opinions might be somewhat dif ferent, yet they conceived it necessary that some alterations ought to take place with respect to the Charter, as regarded trading to Canton. The petition having been read at length, the noble - marquis pre. armed two other petitions of a similar tendency, from Greenock and Bury, all of whom were referred to the committee. The Exchequer Bills' Bill a.iil the Transfer of Aids' Bill, were read a second time. At Half-past Five their Lordships adjourned to Monday. HOUSE OF CONEVIONS—FRIDAY. laird JOHN RUSSELL presented a petition from certain mem. hers of Rye, complaining of the undue election of members for that borough.— Laid on the table. Mr. C. DUNDAS moved the second reading of the Avon and Gloucenershire Railway Bill. A long discussion took place, in which Mr. HART DAVIS, 31r. Bemire, and other members took part, the present bill being considered as interfering with the Bristol and Gloucester Railway. lite House then divided, when there appeared— For the motion ..... ......... ..... 37 Against it .. Lord G. SOMERSET presented a petition from the county of Monmouth against the tithe laws. Mr. LIDDELL presented a petition from the county of Sunburn berland, which had been passed at a county meeting without a dis sentient voice. It complained of a general agricultural distress and complete stagnation of trade, and • prayed that, concomitant with foe measures which affected the currency, there should be a rusluc lion of taxation, and a diminution of the public expenditure. The han. member said that, notwithstanding the impression which was abroad that the north of England did not suffer equally with other parts of the kingdom, he could bear witness that the statements of this petition were substantially borne out by facts. For his part he could not but attribute a very considerable portion of the distress to tl , e measure for the reduction of the one-pound note currency. So far from the five-pound notes having been increased in number, to had been anticipated, they had been greatly diminished—a circulation of front 30 to 40,0001. had been withdrawn from the county of Northumberland alone. With respect to the lead mines in that county, they had been much depreciated. He knew front persons of the highest credibility on the subject, that lead, which hitherto had been supplied from those mines at 201 per ton, was likely to be subjected to competition with foreign lead at 61. per ton. He thought the ministry were bound to reduce the public ex per.diture and their own emoluments, and not afford the slightest ground for complaint to the suffering country.—He thought mini sters should also consider whether by adopting a more secure system of banking, after the example of Scotland, public confidence might nut be generated, and the country be relieved. He moved that the petition might be laid on the table. Mr. BELL seconded the motion of his hon. colleague. He con eurr..ll in the statements of the petitioners. He attributed much of the distress of the country to the system of free trade. The petition was brought up, read, and laid on the table. Mr. LIDDELL presented a similar petition ftom the district of Norham, in the county of Durham. Mr. H. DAVIS presented a petition front the Court of Directors of the Bristol Chamber of Commerce, against the renewal of the East India Company's Charter. Mr. AItKWRIGHT presented a petition from the eastern part of the county of Sussex, complaining of the public distress. Sir J. NEWPORT moved for returns of the names, residences, dm of certain persons, nominees in the years 1773, 1776, and 1777, et the Irish Life Annuities, who had received the last half yearly dividends. Colonel LYGON presented the petition of certain farmers of a dlstrict in Worcestershire, complaining of distress and praying a reduction of taxation. Read, and laid on the table. CITY PETITION. _ Mr. WAITIIMA N, pursuant to notice, presented the following petition of the meeting, convened by public notice, of the manufac turers, tradesmen, and others , residing in or near London,: 1. Representing the great depression and consequent distress that now exists in the mercantile, trading, and shipping concerns of this city, and which bears with such peculiar seventy upon the indus trious and laborious classes. 2. That it is not assignable to any temporary cause, a limited to any particular district, but extends to the agricultural, and all the productive classes of the community. 3. That there has been an unprecedented and rapidly-increasing depreciation in all the articles of manufacture and produce of labour .—causing an immense and often ruinous loss upon the value of stock and capital employed—reducing also profits and the price of labour —throwing thousands of hands cut of employment, while others gain only a precarious and insufficient subsisteuce. 4. That it is their decided conviction that a principal cause of all those evils is. the enormous and overwhelming pressure of taxation, rendered Inure oppressive by the alteration in the currency, which has withdrawn from general circulation and productive employment a large amount of capital, and concentrated the sante in competi tively. few hands, therehy.causing the taxes to approximate to the entire profits of the people, and. In defect of profits, to their capital —deranging the whole system of commercial enterprise, and pa. ralysiu„.. the active industry of the country. 6. That another prominent cause of the present distress, by which these evils have been greatly aggravated, are those laws which they were confidently told, would improve the trade and manufactures of the country, by establishing a reciprocity of trade with, other nations, but which, as other nations have not adopted a similar • policy, have operated most injuriously to several branches of in. stoney, and ssigmentid the public distress , by allowing foreign to come into competition with. British labour in the home markets of this country. 6. That they deem it shore necess try to make their grievances known to your honourable.house, as his Niajestv's ministers seem to be unacquainted with the real state and condition of the country ; and while they. have admitted,. in the speech from the throne. "'that 'OWNS existed in some plicehr„they.have, from fallacious Cuitom . Nose ealuationlystated an insrease of exports as b , indications of active ootnmerce," while it is notorious that the actulPfalue of ex ports has fallen off tp tne amount of several millions a year, for-se. ural years past, and have Mien yielded no pro fi table return. 7. That they have seettiltilth no less surprise, the retail traders represented as in a prospetpus.stete, while melancholy proofs to the contrary are weekly presented. by the long list of bankruptcies ead insolsencies, std still MOM numerous compositions with traitress: That the unparsSeled oppreseton of the agricultural interests Biros all classei, and uses general embarrassment and distress. 2. .That the dish:" mow of the people cannot sustain the pole *eight of ; thet the, present state of the country de. NM* every po s i l ible ealaadoo.ol slas national burdens: that the reducuape of Use Osaactilor of the Exchequer are quite =q i s ed uate to the alleviation Of She' present suffering, and cannot satisfy the just expectations of the public ; that it is with deep con e( en they find, MILT fifteen years of protound peace, ennimmet civil and military e s tablishments are still kept—s profuse expenditure in places, pensions, and appointments, is still to be conthineel—many ie them necessary only foe the purpose of patronage and parlia mentary influence. 10. That, in their opinion, the general and overwhelming dis tress which new pervades all ranks and classes of this country who are not anemitents, and who do not live upon taxes, originated in the long. bloody. and extravagant wars waged against the liberties of the ! eerie of America and France during the reign of George the ritirel, which wars were sanctioned and abetted by a very large ma jority of a cornea and self-elected House of Commons. 11. They, therefore, most humbly pray your honourable house to direct an immediate inquiry into the extent and causes of the gene ral distress that now unhappily prevails throughout the kingdom, in order that your honourable house rray be enabled to apply those remedies which, in your wisdom, may appear best calculated to at rest and remove the evils above respectfully detailed. —The hon. alderman traced the riseof this depreciation fromlBls to 1810 ; during which it fluctuated about OM. per cent. bitt in :1123, end then, to the present time, it fluctuated somewhere above or about p•-r cent. owing, as it is allesed, to the mistaken measures of the currency, passed in 1810, Co iting then into operation. It was highly expedient, therefore, to call on the legislature to compel a reduction of taxes to the greatest possible amount, as it was clear the reduction of expense contemplated by the right hon. the Chan. cellor of the Exchequer would be inadequate, and of no avail what. ever in meeting the present universal cry of distress and embarrass ment felt throughout the country. Ile reprobated the system of free trade, as it was falsely called, now in fashion with same then. rista, who could see, without concern, the legislature taxing the productions of our artisans to the extent of 751. per cent. ard, at the same time, admitting those of foreign artisans at a protecting duty of 301. per cent. (Hear, hear, hear.) The whole of the evils of our present situation were the genuine offspring of a pernicious and mischievous legislation. He moved the petition should be brought up. Mr. Alderman THO3INON bore testimony to the tespectability and temper of the petitioners. Their complaints were, in many instances, certainly not destitute of foundation ; but there being, two opportunities, in debates fixed for next weet, for sifting the metier of these allegations more efficaciously and consistently, he should reserve himself for those occasions more fully to express his sentiments. Mr. Alderman WOOD supported the petition. Mr. WARD had not attended on the occasion of the meeting, but was fully satisfied of' the respectability of the parties who at. tended, though not disposed to coincide in all the statements made as to the causes of distress so generally felt. Mr. HU3IE, agreeing with the petitioners that the house, as at present constituted, was not the actual representation of the public or of its mind, should, notwithstanding, be very sorry to let many of these statements go forth to the public as though they were the echo of or in unison with the sentiments of that party in the house v ith whom he generally acted. The perpetual burden of this pe tition, as well as of the honourable alderman's speeches, who, no doubt, had a great hand in the composition of this petition, and a number of others like it, was that export prices had experienced de. predation 00 or 70 per cent. This was echoed back again from other parts of the kingdom—the hon. alderman and his supporters all the while forgetting that the raw commodity out of which these articles were manufactured had fallen 200—in some instances 300 per cent. The cost of cotton had fullen from 150 to 200 per cent. If only three-fourths then of our exports consisted of cotton, the merchant, manufacturer, and exporter, must put the difFerence be tween this depreciation and the depreciation of 60 or 70 per cent. on the wrought article into their pockets. Thus on one article the total depreciation was accounted for without any loss whatever to the weaver. Taking, however, the average loss of price on all manu factured articles as at 100 per cent. still the depreciation of price on the raw material was so much greater. that the manufacturer and weaver must always be putting Iwo his pocket a profit on the trans actions between this and other countries Importing our goods. Be sides, when cottons rose as they did from fikl. to Bd. to 10d. to Is. did the manufacturers ever come to Parliament and beg to be re strained in their excessive profits by act of parliament, and proposing that excess of profit towards the reduction of taxation ? (Cheers and laughter.) But it was really a matter of wonder to him how assertions such as this petition was crammed with should be echoed from Manchester and other places, the abode of intelligent beings. Was it that they treated every thing which came from the honourable alderman as gospel, because his views were most conve nient for them to adopt ? The honourable alderman complained the system was not one of reciprocity ; but so said he (Mr. Hume); there was no reciprocity in the honourable alderman and the trades men's system ; fur when they were putting enormous profits in their pockets they contributed no part to the public emergencies.—(Hear.) He agteed with the honourable alderman that most of the present embarrassment originated in the alterations in the currency, but not to the ex ant imputed to the system by the honourable alderman ; but he certainly admitted there were times, and this was a crisis, which strongly reminded every rational mind of the imperative ne cessity of adopting the most r i gid economy and retrenchment. Mr. ROBINSON hoped the legislature would at length see its way very clearly in this conflict of difficulties, and remove from of the shoulders of the working classes the heavy pressure of taxation, and put it on the rich, who were well able to bear that load. lie could say, flan his own experience, that in later yea,. he had, for his own and others' accjunt, shipped goods to the amount of hundreds of thousands of pounds, which never returned above .501. or GUI. per cent. Mr. MA BERLY remarked that the exports and imports had been proved to be going on increasing ' , vols.. If tie honourable alderman and the tradesmen of London wished to secure, us they used to do, by high prices, 70 or 80 per curt profit, they should re collect that the pretend scale of duties was fixed expressly to pre vent the smuggler fiord coming in and taking his share of those profits. Hence the fall of prices, and hence many of the complaints, which originated in their own anxiety to secure profits which it was found impossible to retain. The petition was then 'nought up, On die question that the petition be read being put. 31r. WAITHMAN said that as the horn member fur lolontrose had been indulged in so many observations with respect to hint, the house, he thought, could not refuse to hear a few words in reply. The hon. gentleman had recommended hint to inform himself more accurately on the subject of trade, but perhaps he understood the subject much better than the hon. gentleman. (A laugh.) He had been 40 years in business, and ought to understand something of it. The depreciation which had taken place during the last ten years was considerable. This he would maintain. We had our labour to sell, and unless it could be proved w him that it was more our advantage to give it away than to sell it, he could not admit that he was in error. He remembered the time when the right hon secretary of state's father got, to his certain knowledge, 11. profit on every piece in an article which would not now sell fur 11. the piece. (Hear.) The honourable gentleman who had opposed his state ment had expressed himself in the most positive manner—the more positive as he was • the more ignorant ; but he (Alderman Waithman) knew of cases in which men had lust thousands by the depreciation which bad actually taken place. It had been asked would merchants continue to persevere in a losing trade. He would answer that the manufacturer who had in Isis possession a great quantity of goods, and wanted money, would sell them at soy loss ; he would sell them not in the regular market, but to the speculator, as stolen goods were sold, for any thing they would bring. And in this way the speculative merchant could trade. But then it was said that our exports had increased.— The fact, however, was, that nothing could be more gradual than the increase, and nothing more sudden than the fall ; it was full 23 per cent. at once. if he were to be asked what had Government to do with this, he would say that they ought not to permit foreigners into time market, and that they ought to reduce the taxation.— What had been the consequence of the opposite system ? It had ruined the old traders. There was hardly a name in business which had nor become bankrupt within his recollection. Formerly it used to be an object with men of business to be known as successors to others. That was out of fashion now, because there were so few to whom they could succeed. Ile spoke as a practical man, as a man of business ; and, notwithstanding what the hon. gentleman had said, he knew more of the subject than three-fourths of the House of Commons. He hoped he was conducting himself with becoming modesty ; (loud laughter) but he owed nothing to the house. They owed him their attention, for he represented 10,000 independent electors, who had returned him without a shilling of expence, and who could not hare done so if they did not feel that they could give him their confidence. But era ie. they were told, was rising; the manufacturing towns were told so by this time ; but the misfottune was that they had been told the same thing for the last ten years. As for the expenditure of the counuy, the landed gentlemen, who now cried nut so loudly, had encouraged it by the countenance which they gave to the late ruinous war. — He was the fiat roan who had presented a petition against it thirty years ago. (hear, hear, hear,) That petition called upon the house to disclaim the principle of interference in the internal concerns of France. But the disavowal was mot palata ble to the landed gentlemen then, and, unfortunately, it so hap pened that parliament was always ready to interfere in favour of ty ranny, but unwilling and diffident when liberty was the cause at stake. And white had they done after all? They had seated the Betatrons on the throne of France, who had not now the gfatitude so take a single yard of their cotton.—(Laughter.) They had placed a monster on the throne of Spain, they had tole:toted another on time throne of Portugal. It war thus they satisfied their consciences, it' conscience,' they had, upon the subject of interference and non-in, terfetence. In the year 1890, he presented another petittastso pap. liament.--(Cries of "Question, question.") It met with a similar f ate, an d a n b ecause of the ruinous 'ram of misrule whisk It suited the purposes of a tempt House of Commons to adopt. The consequences were now combed home to the landed interest, and' If they did not look about them quickly, and see what was to be the business would be done out of doors. He had never der*/ that there was not an advantage in foreign trade ; but when thee was no foreign Mai ktt, had they not a right to complain ? Parliament had sacrificed ev, re thing under the mischievous delusion that they were increasing the foreign trade of the courtry, when the fact was notoriously the reverse. Ile had read much upon the subject, and he was free to confess that, after all his reading, he found himself more perplexed than informed.—(laughter.) Mr. Ricardo told him one thing, and Mr. MiCulloch told him another thing, —The latter gentleman told him that it was just the same thing whether gentlemen spent their money here or in Paris. He also told hint that, if they would not take our goods in France, they would take them in America; but the fact tunnel out to be, that they would neither take them in France nor in America. if they were resolved to meet the evil by the reduction cf taxation, they must begin at the top, and not stop until they got to the bottom. They must touch the sinecures and the church. They might talk of sound principles and sound nonsense, but he was speaking of facts. h respect to the war in which they had been engaged—(Loud cries of "Question.") Well, he would not enter into it now. He ass grateful to the house for the indulgence they had given him, hut he did not think he owed them any apology. lie stood upon his right as s member of that house on presenting a petition, which came from a great body of the people, to recommend and enforce the object of that petition by every exertion which he was capable of making in its behalf. Mr. O'CONNELL was glad of the opportunity now afforded him. of expressing his thanks to the chief magistrate and the hon. alderman, tot the testimony they had borne in the petition just re ceived, to the salutary measure of radical reform. The allusion to the public debt, and the manner in which it had !Inn contracted, happily did not apply toe reformed house of commons. TREASURER OW THE WAVY. The CH ANC ELL( /R of the EACH EQU ER moved the order of the day for the house resolving itself into a committee of supply. Sir J. GRAHAM said that painful circumstances, of a domestic nature, rendered it difficult for him to proceed with the motion of which he had given notice; but, lest he should seem wanting in respect for the house, after having • renewed his notice, he would endeavour to discharge the duty which devolved upon him however imperfectly he might succeed, and throw himself on the indulgent favour, and, he might almost say, the sympathy of the house. He regretted that upon this occasion he was obliged to appear before them in rather an invidious character, but when the distresses of the country called out so loudly for relief, he could not pass without notice the slightest infraction of that engagement which was made at the commencement of the Session, and which bound them to make every possible saving in the expenditure. They had acted in contradiction to that pledge. This was the narrow ground upon which the mintsten and he were at issue. But first, he would dis embarrass the question of those topics which did not belong to it ; and here he could assure the right honourable gentleman that he did not bring forward the motion through any ill will to him ; on the contrary, he felt for him all that respect which was due to a blame less reputation (hear, hear.) He would not touch the question why the right hon. gentleman had left office with his friends, and re turned to office without them ; but before he proceeded any fuither, he was bound to correct an error into which he had involuntarily fallen. He had understood, and had stated upon a former occasion, that the right hon gentleman held a patent office connected with the customs. In that opinion he found that he was mistaken. The right hon. gentleman, as he now understood, was not possessed of any emolument beyond the 2,000/. a year as Treasurer of the Navy. In proceeding to the immediate question, he wished to state, that, as he was unacquainted with the details of the office himself, he must depend upon the description given by others as to the nature of its duties. With this view, he should refer to the statement of Lord Goderich in the year 18?6, his Lordship having himself filled the office of Tremont of the Navy (hear) The duties of a treasurer of the navy were not confined to drawing bills, but all money payable upon seamen's wills passed through the office, and the treasurer was responsible that these sums should be paid to the persons to whom they were really due. The noble lord had further stated, that there was not only a treasurer of the navy, but a paymaster also, the fumer of whom was responsible. but the latter not; and he conterded that if the duties and the nu ponsibility were to be thrown upon the paymaster with a salary of only 1,0001. a-year, they could not be efficiently performed. Now it appeared that an intention had been announced to discontinue the Ake of paymaster of the navy altogether; but that the two Aka most be continued until the present paymaster was otherwise= Tided for. This amounted to a clear admission that only one was necessary. (Hear, hear. The sole and narrow ground, there. fore, for keeping up the office of treasurer of the navy was the res. ponsibility attached to it ; but, fur his own part, he viewed paltry security of individuals as nothing in eases where the millions rrlthrough the hands of the party. Responsibility un sitich circumstances, and founded upon such aecurity, he was disposed to treat very lightly. Indeed Lord Goderich gave, in a subsequent speech, an exellent test of the value of such responsibility. He mentioned one ease in which a person be. came a defaulter to the extent of 25,0001. and fled to America, whi ther he was followed, and was by threms frightened out of all that he had remaining of it, amounting to 15,0001. For this latter sum ' the sureties were applied to, but in the result a loss occurred to the country. Another case was, where a person in the office over which hoed Goderich himself presided became a defaulter to the amount 0f6.0001. and in that case his lordship said, that if he had not been able to satisfy the Lords of the Treasury that the loss was not occa sioned by any fault of his, he would have been responsible and corn polled to pay the deficiency. He was not, however, called upon to pay, because as the noble lord himself said, as he was nut in fault it would be most unjust to make him pay. How, then, he would ask, could he be responsible ? By his own showing, if he could not be shown to have been porlierpe erinrinis ' his responsibility was not even that of a shadow of a shade. The hon. hart. then alluded to the evidence given before the finance committee, which had come to such an untimely and lamentable tate, ard upon which he hoped the hon. member for Abingdon would summon an inquest. He really hoped that smite I . smother would take some step towards its revivaL (Hear, hear.) For Ilia own part, he placed great reliance upon the researches of the chairman, to whose valuable services he felt bound to offer that public record of his opinion. The statement of the master of the mint before the couuuittee was, also. in his opinion, the clearest exposition of the affairs of the country he had ever before seen, so that on many accounts he regretted the premature termination of that committee. The hon. member for Lhnfries, in giving his evidence before that committee, had stated that the office of treasurer of the navy was a nominal office, to which no responsibility and no duties were attached. The evidence of the vice-admiral (Sir O. Cockburn, we believe) was to the effect that the treasurer of the navy should be an efficient officer, lowed of an officer of state, holding it on account of the salary. It was no part of his are to contend for the abolition of the office of treasurer of navy, for he was aware that Mr. Burke had reported, as had also the finance committee of 1817, in favour of the office ; and it might therefore be deemed presumptuous in hint to move for its situ. lition, in the thee of such a recommendation. Ills object was this --that if the office was to be kept up, it should be attached to some' other efficient office, the holder of which should not be under the rank of Privy Councellar, whereby a retired salary would be saved to the country.—(Hear, hear.) In this motion he was sup ported by precedents as far back as the year 1782. and continuing down almost to the present time, the office being held during almost the entire interval conjointly with other efficient and responsiule offices. In 1712, it was held by Mr. Dundas (the late Lord 31e1. vine), and he continual to hold it, except for the short period that it was held by Mr. Townsend. down to the year 1800. He held it in 1792, wi bout any profitable office besides; for, though he was also president of the board of controul, it was not until 1793 that a salary was attached to that office. In IVO! he was secretary of state fur the home department, and he held the treasurership of the navy in conjunction with that Ole?, as he did also in 1794, in conjunction with the office of secretary at war. In 1801 he was out of office, and then the office was held toe a short time separately Its Lord Harrowby. It was subsequently held by %tr. B. Bathurst and by Mr. Tierney; and, in 1807, Mr. G. Rose held the cffice, in conjunction with that of vice-president of die board of trade. He continued to hold bob offices until 1812, when he gave up the vier-presidency of the board of trade, and continued to hold the treasurership of the navy until his death, which took place in 11114. Then land Uodetich was appointed to the office, which be held conjointly with that of Vice- President of the Board of Toole, with which office it bad been ever' since united in the persons of the right hon. member for Liverpool (Mr. Iluskisson,) the right bun. nittubt r for Inverness (Mr. C Grant.) and Mr. V. Fitzgerald. Thus it would be seen that the office had been always held by laborious and sffect.ve Officers of S ate; and thus had he shown ample precedents :et the obj ct he had in view. He would, with the have of the house, et ad the opinion of Mr. Tierney respecting the labour% of' the office premisittg that this opinion was given when it was under consideration whether theoffies should not be united with that of the President of the Board of Trade. In mentioning the name of Mr. Tierney. however he could not avoid paying to his memory that tribute of sitteiebs went which was due front a faithful retold. (Hear, hear.) - That government which was so lauded for its economy had panted to Lord Bexley—who was himself a wealthy mam— a retiring pension of 3,0001. a-year. while Mr Tierney was content to retire with his private fortune only ; but Regum sequalsat toptat animis He had fought the good light. sometimes alone, Alla lionetinirs at the head of a numerous body of members of that house ; and at limit it was his honest pride that he had lira without a pension, 'and it was the honest pride of his family that he had died without a debt. (Cheery.) df amongst public men an incorruptible patriot', was to be found, that man was Mr. Tierney. (Cheers )L Tice opi. nion of Mr. Tierney was, that the business of the cifice did litOl occupy more time than one hour each day when he held it ; so that, if it was not absolutely a sinecure, it was as nearly so a► possible ; unless, indeed, it could be shown that some change had taken place since then, which had thrown a greater share of business into that office. He had listened with great attention to the speech of the hon. hart. (the member for Edinburgh,) in the expec tation of hearing that some additional duties had accrued to tb. office, but he had listened in vain ; for the hon. hart. had not said that any additional business was now to be transacted at that office. lie saw that the treasurer of the navy had given notice of a motion for leave to bring in a bill to consolidate the acts relating to the treasurership of the navy, and he hoped the object of that bill was to diminish the duties as well as the expenses of the office. In a work which had been published by the chairman of the Finance Committee, and in another which was put forth by Mr. Abbott, it was stated that the office was devoid of all arrangement ; and in a report made by Mesa*. nrookbank and Phelps, they stated that this want of arrangement was the result of their having neither a proper ledger nor cash-book. (I fear, hear, hear.) The honourable baronet here observed, that if a proper arrangement were made in that department, it would simplify the business, and, instead of an hour a day, which the duties of that office heretofore occupied, halt an hour would be sufficient. He thought it would be impossible to have the treasurer of the navy a member of the board of Green. with HospitaL He understood that ministers had offered the office to the Marquis of Chandos ; if so, they must have it in contempla tion to put the noble marquis at the head of the trade of this country ; and he believed, up to the meeting of Parliament ministers had not made up their minds to separate that office from the board of trade. He (Sir James Graham) thought that the best office to attach the treasurership to was the vice president of the board of trade. It might be said that the business had increased In that department, so that it would be impossible for one person to discharge both duties.— He (Sir James) could scarcely believe that business in the office of Board of Trade had so much increased, when there were so many complaints of distress throughout the country. lie felt secure of the vote of the paymaster of the forces on this occasion, unless he had changed opinions since he had left his (Sir James's) side of the house. The hon. baronet here read extracts from a speech made some years ago by Mr. Calcraft, the paymaster of the forces, com plaining of a salary being attached to the office of treasurer of the navy, which he represented as a sinecure. The speech ended in these words—" The amount of the salary is small, but the principle is everything." The hon. member then proceeded to say, that there were seventy pensioners of the crown in that house. There were twelve ministers of the crown members of two committees that were now sitting. These, with the East India Directors, carried everything before them in these committees. He thought that this house was sinking in its reputation.--(Hear, hear.) If, according to his view of the breath of his majesty a minbters, they could carry every thing they pleased. If after the declaration lately made by ministers respecting economy, they had filled up this office, which was a mere sinecure, it behoved this house to let the Duke of lington know that the Commons of England will not be so tampered with. The hon. baronet concluded by moving, that it is the opinion of this house that the late vacancy in the office of treasurer of the navy afforded an opportunity to ministers of saving 30001. a year, without a violation of any engagement or detriment to public service. The motion having been put from the chair, tiir O. CLARKE observed, that the reason why the office of paymaster of the navy was not held responsible for the money paid by him, was because he was the deputy of the Treasurer. He then entered into the circumstance alluded to of Lord Goderich. as quoted by the hon. baronet, respecting the responsibility attached to it, ob serving, that In the use of the defaulters mentioned no person was to blame. as he had fled from the country, and consequently it would be unjust to compel the treasurer to make good the sum lost thereby. The bon. member then proceeded to say that the office in question was incompatible with any of the offices held by privy councillor/4 as it would prevent them from attending to the business of the country. Mr. Tierney, he said, held that office without any other being attached to it. He thought it impracticable to die. charge the duties of that office conjointly with any other in which there was much business. With respect to the observation made regarding the treasurer being a member of the Board of Green wich Hospital, he In gged to say that the treasurer was chairman of that board ; and as them was a great deal of naval business trans. acted by that board, it was highly fit that some high officer in the navy department should be a member of it. By the present ar rangement a saving had been dreamt. lie thought the house would give the greatest credit to the government when they heard the extent of the reductions which had been made in every depart tnent connected with the navy. By the appointment of leis right hon. friend he was convinced the naval establishment would receive very considerable advantage, from his ability as a man of business and perseverance. On former occasions, when this office was joined with another, it was impossible for the duties to be efficiently per. formed. They would now have the undivided attention of a man possessed of many requisites for the office. Ile must therefore op. pose the motion. Mr. C tICRAFT said, he should on this occasion vote in such a way as would enable him to reconcile his actions with his words. The right hon. gentleman alluded to a speech he had made in 1826, which the honourable baronet had quoted. In 1826, he had stated it as his opinion that the office of President of the Board of Trade ought to be better paid. It was an office of excessive labour and anxiety, and the salary attached to it was 2,0001. a. year. The proposition then was that the salary should be in. creased to 6,00 W. Upon that he had said, why not combine the duties of the Treasurer of the Navy, the satiny of which was 3,0001. with those of the President of the Board of Trade, and so increase the salary paid to the individual bolding the situation to 5.0001. per annum. This was done, and the party re ceived a commensurate reward with his labours, without imposing fresh butthens upon the public. Well, it was now wanted to pay 1,0001. per annum for the performance of the duties of an office. which at the same time was to become more laborious as more highly responsible. Timm in addition, it was proposed to do awny with the paymaster, whose salary was 1,2001. per annum, so that the whole saving to the country proposed was 2,200/. Hence the immense duties were to be performed for tile sum of 1,0001. !laving said thus much upon the quesion, he was to defe:.d him. self for having formed a junction with t h e present administra. tion. if there was any one step during his life which he felt proud of, he would say it was, that having been asked by the duke of Wellington to take office under his administration, lie had upon mature deliberation accepted the situation he then held. Hr daily became more satisfied with himself for Navin joined it. (Hear, and laughter.) He would ask the house whether a...y preceding event event had ever evinced so great a desire for reduction as that of which he was a member. lie would ask that house whether the government had not manifested every disposit,on to sacrifice its patronage, when in so doing a public good was to be obtained. (Hear.) He aid not therefore conceive that his joining them had been in contradiction to his assertions on former Occasions. Lord HOWICK regretted that the finance commioter bad not eat in deliberation longer than it had. because lit thought it might have reemnmended that the various offices for the payment ut the public money should be concentrated. It appeared, however, troth what had been stated in that house, that the office sat payttuniter thould be abolished, but that the then occupant sat the bi.th could out be removed until I.olllt a lECC was tumid our him. So that once a servant of the country. and you become a pensioner upon the public purse for life. (Hear, hear.) It was certainly comfortable to be provided for. lie wished all could be provided the. He should have t:o objection to receive 2,0001. it would make a very pleasant addition to his income. But wlaist they were talking of these agreeable additions, let them pause tor a teemetit. and recollect by whom the money was to be found.—(heat hear.) The sums must be drawn from the pockets of the labourer. et the mechanic, and artisan, and of the it dustrious trad.eaten.—(hear. hear.) These were the panics who would be crushed by the He considered that they would be guilty of a gross derelie. Lion of duty were they not to agree to the resolution proposed by his hon. friend the member for Cumberland. Mr. Clit tKER remarked, that the observations of the noble lord were completely euntradictory to those uttered by Lis own friends, when he called upon honourable members to supi,ort It. The Titot . honourable gentleman then went minutely tyrough a series o f opinions, which had been expressed in that hot se by earl Grey. when he held the office of First load of tic Admiralty, and of the lite Mr. Tierney, whilst holding the oince, and subsque it to that period, of Treasurer of the Navy, relative to the uuti s which mune under its jurisdiction. The salary was at that tints tour thousand pounds per annum. Sluice that tune the duties had es sentially ibcreased. The duties, the limb of the lineation had usually been done by a paymaster. a sort of deputy, so that :'es lebuur of the treasurer biotech sae comparatively but little. Any office might be made a sinecure by the app eitttttttttt oh is deputy. (If this the government were swam. and they had be, n detennitted to put an end to it, by making it a separate and substantive uffice. so that the party filling it should transact the business adherent w it. The duties had become greater. and the cumin of responsibility was much higher. The deputy was in fact the attest toy to the trea surer, actirg by power of attorney for I' . It ass a known fact. that what defrications there had been in the public departments, had been the act of a treasurer's treasury who was performing the duties of another office. In WOO, the sal ary of the paymaster was 500 r• per annum. In 1001, itt consequence of the increased duties, it was I raiatel to MIL in 1819 to 1,0001. and in 1826 to 1,2001. the preset:: aunt. Having gone throny h additional statements, the hon. member defended the appointment in question, and said ho mu st oppose the piotiou. HUSKISSON feeling that he was the only member then in the house who had filled the situation of Im:sitter of the navy, when performing the duties of pmeldenkof the board ctt trade, thought ►ome sot tof esplanation might be looked flit from him. He boots timony to the efficiency of . ttre . right hoir. gentleman who had just balm appointed. This question ought to be considered only in a pub. He light. It was one of considerable Importance. The ministers had declared their intention not to fill up this office, sad In a few days thetppolottneint wits nude. t;uch n step calling for the passiagrif the resolution mused, ur something tantamount to it. by Way 44 pmt'