Star. — London, England, 1820-06-15 00:00:00

I . . . . . . . • hoped he had do ne no injury toll* mlmtrry or the prayer, that the two island.; of Great Britain and Irelandmight be for ever connected by the ties of great man of whom he had been speaking ; and he trusted that he had tilt committed any unreasonable es teem and iegard, and that the Legislature might at length see e wisdom of wiping away that last trespass on the patience of the House—(Hear, hear!) th stain from our system which he regarded as a vestige The Motion was then agreed to. of intolerante. He hoped the approbation that TRADE WITH 'IRELAND.. world be manifetted on this occasion would prove, ' Sir HENRY PARNELL prefaced the motion of which he had given notice for a Select Committee on t hat in this country the Members of the House of c o mmons knew how to appreciate the merits of the Sixth Article of - the Union with Ireland, with a those to whom their own pride and pretensions had variety of observations to shearthe importance, at a time when the export trade of the country had so been opposed, and to honour those whose virtues w ere entitled to the reference, gratitude, and pious much fallen off, to take every means of cultivating And increasing our domestic commerce. One object affection of their fellow-snbjectst When the merits of the illustrious dead were under consideration, it of the Union was to establish perfect freedom of trade b \ras natural to dwell with fond regret on those merits,etween the two countries, subject to certain,limita-' and on their probable reward ; and he felt that he lions, which limitations were however to expire In twenty years from the conclusion of the Union, or in could not better close what he had to say on this -other words, on the Ist of next January. He strongly . knbiect, than by applying to Mr. Grattan the verses written on one who had successfully laboured to represented, therefore, to the Right Hon. Gentleman -Ate our taste and our manaets, but who had opposite, who had given notice of his intention to . -othing in common with Mr. Grattan but splendid p ropose a continuation of those limitations, the expe diency of entering into a previous investigation of the silent and a spotless life. Of Mr. Grattan, in the words cf the poet he had alluded to;he might say, subject, in order that whatever might be done, might when the last sad duties had been rendered to him, be the result of due deliberation. He had little doubt K that, if the subject were fully considered, the Irish Neer to those chambers where the mighty rest, Since their foundation, came a nobler guest ; Manufacturers themselves would be desirous of the Nor e'er was to the bowers of bliss convey'd, abolition of what were called the protecting duties, A purer Spirit, or more welcome Shade !" and of thereby extending the British market. He Lord CASTLEREAGH, agreeing with the re- also wished to extend the inquiries of the Committee marks male by the Honourable and Learned Gentle- to the countervailing duties, because, as the Exche man, as to the occasions on which a public tribute of quers of the two countries were consolidated, he was applause should be rendered to those who were no at a lo ss to concei ve why there should be double more, perfectly entered into the feelings which had trouble in this respect. In conclusion the Honotfrable been expressed with respect to Mr. Grattan, and Baronet moved—" That a Select Committee be ap thought no individual could hesitate in awarding to pointed to inquire into the effect on the Trade be his name the honours claimed for it. He could re- tween Great Britain and Ireland of the Ten per Cent. member when he (Lord Castlereagh) had first come Duties, and of the Countervailing Duties, and to into public life, in 1790, that Mr. Grattan was then report their opinion s to the Hou s e . " in the splendour of his talents, and certainly no ta- Mr. urnsEroN seconded the motion. He lents had ever asserted greater supremacy over a thoUght it was of the utmost importance that this sub popular assembly than his had (lone. He was of J ed should he investigated by a Committee of that opinion ‘ that in the great transaction which had been - House. There were many branches of trade, which alluded to, England profited not less from the talents were exclusively confined to this country; for in of Mr. Grattan than Ireland had done. By the vic- stance, the Wrought Iron, the Hardware, and the tory which he previously had gained, Mr. Grattan Potteries. Now it would be of infinite advantage to Lad laid the foundation for that measure which had the starving manufacturers, if the duties on these united the two islands of Great Britain and Ireland branches of our trade were removed in our inter into one Empire, and dissipated those mists which ccurse with Ireland. had before prevented both countries from seeing their Mr. V. VITZGERALD hoped his Rig ht Hon. true interests. The commercial bigotry which had Friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) would re enre existed was overthrown, in • consequence of his fuse the Committee. He knew that nothing could be exertions; and the advantages resulting from this more productive of discontent and alarm in Ireland were now felt in the wealth which each country than such a measure. The expiration of the Act of poured into the lap of the other, and which it was Union did not point out the period when those duties now the business of Parliament to make fructify, and should cease, but the time when any legislative in increase the commercial prosperity of the Empire. terfereuce could properly take place. Tice Honourable and Learned Gentleman had, with Lord ALTHORP supported the motion. great taste and feeling, called the attention of the Mr. WILL OT spoke in favour of the Committee. llouse to the sentiments uttered by Mr. Grattan in The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, 1.i..i last. moments, respecting 'the Catholic Question. he thought he should be guilty of injustice bah Whatever were his (Lord Castlereagh's) feelings on to this country and Ireland, it he sanctioned the ap mat question, he thought, with the Honourable and pointment of the Committee proposed by the Hon. Learned Gentleman, that to introduce anything re- Baronet. The manufacturers had, upon the faith of 'rating to it on the present occasion would.'ne foreign the existing duties being continued, entered into large to the purpose. Whether Mr. Grattan was right in speculations, and any measure like that proposed iiie view which he took of that question or not, it would create discontent and alarm in the public mind. could at least be said that lie was consistent with the Mr. CURWEN was for going into the inquiry, not -whole of his public duty, and that he gave his ex- for the purpose of repealing the existing duties, but piring breath to that Question—(Hear, hear).—He with a view to ascertain the period for which it would wished it wets in his power to express in terms more be necessary to continue them. ' • adequate the general po.lltical veneration he felt for Sir N. COLTHURST hoped that the Chancellor the gi eat character who was the subject of their pre- of the Exchequer would not accede to the motion seat discourse. He was sure that there would be of the Honourable Baronet. He knew that it would found as many whose sentiments agreed with those. be productive of considerable alarm and discontent so eloquently expressed by the Honourable and Lear- in that part of the country with which he was con ned Gentlemen, on his (Lord Castlereagh's) side of 'netted (Cork). At a period like the present, when the House, as there were on the other —(Hear, hear!) the public distresses of that country were so great Ile was sure the virtues of that great character would from recent failures (and that distress exceeded all long live in the memory of the British Nation. belief), it was of the utmost importance to avoid all Mr. C. GRANT bore a handsome and feeling tes- subject of discontent or alarm. timony to the moral and political character of the Lord CASTLEREAGH coincided with the Hon. ' lamented individual in question, to the important Baronet who had just sat down. He was aware that 1 services which he had rendered to his country, and much distress prevailed in the South of Ireland, from to the high consideration in which these services were the recent failure of public credit, and it was neces- 1 generally held. sary to give as much tranquillity as possible to the Mr. WILBERFORCE also, with much animation„ . public mind. Oa these grounds he opposed the pr ! ‘ adverted to the private as well as public virtues o f sent motion. . . Mr. Grattan. He was convinced that whatever might . M r . Hume and Mr. W. PARNELL Supported the be the various sentiments of Honourable Gentlemen mot i on . upon particular measures, this was a man in whom Mr. SHAW said, that though lie agreed with the they would all admit private interests were extin- Hon. Member for Waterford (Sir J. Newport), that F uished, and who looked solely to the public good. a graduated scale of reduction would be best, yet he she Honourable Member concluded, by observing, could not oppose the present motion ; as, if he did so, that although Mr. Grattan had been no friend to the the question would go over to the next year. , Union, in the first instance, yet he was known with After a few words from General HART, his last breath to Lave uttered a wish that that Union Sir H. PARNELL said, that from what had been might he perpetual. urged against his motion, he felt it the more neces- Mr. V. FITZGERALD joined in the tribute of re- sary to take the sense of the House upon it. spect paid by the preceding speakers. The House then divided— Mr. BECHER was principally actuated to address For the Committee - - 30 the House, to remark, that a document, the dying Against M 66 ajority against it - - —36 . exhortation of Mr. Grattan to his Catholic country- It was ordered, on the motion of Mr. &taw, that there be men, addressed to a Gentleman who stood by his bed- laid before the House an Account of the Amount of the Dublin side, arid immediately committed by him to writing, Grand Jury Cess for the last six years, ending the Ist January, had been communicated to him, *hich, with the per- 1820; the Amount charged to each Parish, the Insolvency and mission of the House, he would now read— Hear, Re-assess, and the Amount lost by Collectors; also the Total ( Amount charged within the same period for Watching, Paving, hear!}-The Honourable Gentleman here read the an d Li g h t i ng the sa id Ci ty . document, which was to the following effect : MUTINY BILL. " I wished to go to the House of Commons, to testify with Lord PALMERSTON moved the Order of the my last breath mg opinions on the question of Catholic Emanct- Day for the third reading of the Mutiny Bill. pation ; b l .t I cannot. The hand of der:th is on me. lam not afraid tf d e ath; but I fear for my country, if the object which The Order bein read - " That this Bill be now g , 1 have so long cherished should not be accomplished. I wish read a third time,' III? Catholics to be relieved from the oppression under which Lord NUGENT begged to inquire whether the they have lung been labouring, because I have always considered first Resolution included the service for India ? thtra to be 10-al men, worthy to be placed upon a foelng with Lord PALMERSTON said, that the Resolution the other menibers of the community, and to be allowed to wor ship Con acco r di ng to t h e ir own consciences. I wish the guts- had be read. It was read by the Clerk, it did tion to 14 st-tUtd, because I believe it to be essential to the per- not include that service. mamma tranquillity and happiness of the country, which are, in Lord NUGENT then rose. He feared the motives fact, identified with it. The Catholks have behaved w -II under by which he was actuated in addressing the House buoy aria s. If t h e i r h opes s hould be again disappointed, I Inost earnestly depr eca t e an y coa lition on tacit part with the ad- wou ld make but little impression on the Gentlemen 'orates of Universal Suffrag , ! and Annual Parliaments. Were opposite. The few observations which he had to the friends of those doctrines to be successful in their object, make should therefore be applied to the pririciple, nothing could ensue but t h e subversion of the Constitution, and not to t h e d eta il s o f t h e su bj ect un d er di scuss io n . H e establishment of the wildest democracy. There is one thing more: the Catholics must cautiously avoid becoming parties to any 9 P felt, however, that he should abuse the time of the dissensions that may unfortunat e ly prevail in the Royal Family. ' House if he confined himself to that cold and units -Waring could Ise more hJittiorable to Mr. Grattan, teresting manner (he said it with deference lo the, than this proof °this anxious solicitude, in his dying Noble Lord), in which the Estimates of so great a moment., to:prevent his countrymen from falling into Military force in time of peace were annually brought i error. He (Mr. Becher) trusted that the Catholics forward. He did not, for himself, see the necessity would not fail in the great object which they had in of maintaining such a force. He considered it, with view. If they should tail, it could only be by a de- reference to its avowed application, as worse than parture from the dying injunctions of their unwearied useless, and supported in contradiction to the soundest champion and best friend; and who has thus given principles of the Constitution. It would, he said, theta wholesome advice, as he had frequently done alarm our ancestors, if they could contemplate the to those who were to legislate for them. Ile had present situation of the country—if they could look giatiLied his own feelings by what he had said; he 'at the state of Our Military establishments. After hire years of profound peace, we have an array of, 95,0(10 men, exclusive of 12,000 YeOmiary ad other force! W hat did this fake mean? What was it but a gigantic stride towards a Military Government? --(Hear, hear) —He looked in vain, from what fell from the Noble Lord in the recent debates in that House, for anythiag that, in the state Of this coun try, in the temper and feelings of the people, could justify this monstrous revolution in the constitu tional government of England—( Hear, hear). — The Noble Lord seemed to rest the vindication of Mi nisters on the notoriety of the necessity for calling out that force. He was not disposed to admit as a postulate of the Noble Lord's, that anything which had recently occurred in the country, did justify so , great a change in the Councils and government. He recollected that. apout four years ago, a set of Esti mates to a considerable amount was laid before the House. He recollected that Ministers Or) that occa- sion had stated, that those Estimates were reduced to the lowest state to which they could be reduced con sistent with the public safety. Bat the Ministers lost the Property Tax, and then they withdrew those Es timates, and brought forward Estimates of a very reduced state. BUt reduced as it was—lower as it was to 'that which Ministers had asserted before Parliament was absolutely necessary fur the public safety—yet the Military Establishment was found still sufficient, and he had little doubt but thal even now it might admit of a still further reduction. Looking to the history of the past, and even in times of great , public discontent, the Standing Army bore no pro portion to what was kept up at the present day. In 1817, a ComMittee of that House recommended that the Military Establishment should approximate as nearly as possible to the establishment of 1792; and yet 1817 was supposed to be so full of discontent, that Ministers felt themselves authorised to recom mend a Suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act.— He did not deny that then as now much 'discontent did not prevail, but he was of opinion, that that dis content was aggravated by the means proposed to remove it. Certainly baekruptcy, stagnation in trade, and starvation amongst the people, was not best remedied by a Standing Army--(Hear, hear): They must reduce the expenditure, and find new commer cial relations, or else there could be no end to the misery or distress of the country. He declared to GOD he spoke from. his heart, and was incapable of exaggeration on such a subject. In tune of profound peace, and during the recess of Parliament, 11,000 men were raised, though the Bill of Rights declared that no men should be raised in.time of peace; and yet Parliament took no notice of it. When James 11. raised a few Regiments to oppose Argyle and Monmouth, who were then in arms, the slavish Par liament of 1685 no sooner met than it declared, that raising troops in time of peace was contrary to the spirit of the Constitution, and subversive of the liber ties of the St..e. The reduction he now proposed in the Army would effect a saving of half a million. He intreated the House, as they felt for the distresses of the People—as they valued the Constitution—as they wished to check the present Ministers in their attempts to establish a Military Tyranny, to support the Amendment which he would have the honour to move. The Noble Lord then moved," That instead of 92,586 Officers and men, there be inserted 77,224 Officers and men." The SPEAKER said, that before the Amendment was put, the regular course of proceeding was to read the Bill a third time.—The Bill was accordingly read a third time. The question on the Amendment being put, _ Mr. BRIGHT said, he was anxious to have the Army reduced to the lowest possible scale. In 1817 a Committee had recommended the reduction of the Army to the scale of the Military Establishment of 1792. He did not see the necessity of increasing the Army beyond the scale of 1792. It was quite true that much uneasiness prevailed in the country—it was quite true that many sad scenes had taken place —that military execution had been inflicted on the people !—( Hear, hear)—assembled, as they believed, constitutionally, and certainly peaceably assembled, to assert the rights of British subjects—(Hear, hear) —to petition the Legislature of the Country for a Reform, which they felt and believed to be necessary for the salvation of the Empire—(Hear, hear). He was convinced, that so far from being disaffected, the great part of the people were sound in:their principles. But the Ministers did not sympathise with them—they did not feel for their wants—they did not treat them with civility or with kindness. As an instance of the manner in which Ministers treated the people, he need only allude to the conduct of theßightHon.Gentlenran ' opposite (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) that night. He need only allude to the cold-hearted manner in which he treated the representation of a Member of that House, who stated, that out of fourteen banks in , the South"of Ireland, eleven had failed, and universal misery and distress followed. He would not now dispute the question, whether affording a temporary relief to the People under severe affliction, was against the principles of political economy ; but certainly Ministers might find some other way to soothe the public mind, besides calling forth an additionalmili tary force of eleven thousand men. He felt that, with respect to that number, the objection of the Noble Lord (Nugent) was unanswerable. As to the remaining four thousand, he was not so well ac quainted with the matter as to give a positive opinion —but if Ministers would reduce the force of eleven thousand men, he, though disposed to vote for the Amendment of the Noble Lord generally, would support Ministers; bat in lack of their doing so, he would vote for the Amendment of the Noble Lord. . Lord PALMERSTON said, the speech of the Noble Lord (Nugent) divided itself into two parts; the first on the military force of the country, the other on the recent measure of calling out the Veteran Battalions. The Noble Lord stated, that he saw no reason why the present force should not be reduced to the force of 1792. But this has been so often replied to—it was so often shewn that the increase of our colonies, and the general circumstances of the country, rendered it impossible to reduce the mili tary establishment to the scale of 1792, that be would not now trouble the House with any observations on the subject. As to the question of calling out the Veteran Battalions, which the Noble Lord called a violation of the Constitution, if he had consulted the history of the country, he would find many instances where the army had been augmented in time of peace,, in apprehension of war (Hear, hear! fi on the Oppo• sit ian).—He conceived the apprehensions .of internal commotion as dangerous as the apprehensions of foreign war—(Hear, hear).—When the Noble Lord said that in angmilitaticin o ' the army in dint peke w4s agarnst the law, he (Lord Parmerstoti) eOrietirred 'With him ; but he should recollect that the Parlianient, the first day it assembled, in ad Addtess to the Throne, had sanctioned alsd Ifni-laved of the nieasute of calling out the Veteean Battalionis As to the policy of the measure, he Might say that it w4_justilled by notorious facts, by The alarming state of the country. He would forbear to advert to the late conspiracy in London —(A laagh). No doubt a plan to burn London, and to overturn the Govern ment, Was unworthy of notice ! The lion. Gentle man should know that a Special Commission was about to be issued for Yorkshire and Scotland, to try a conside e number of persons charged *with the crime of 'High Treason-for - acts committed too in the months of March and April last, by armed bodies of men, in different parts of the country. Did the Noble Lord opposite see the Proclamation posted up in Glasgow, declaring a Provisional Government, and stating that the object of the persons concerned was to effect, by force of arms, what they considered to be their rights? Under all the circumstances, was it possible that any person, fairly considering the events of lgarch and April last, would ask to remove from the hands of Government the means by which they %sere enabled to meet the threatened evil? He certainly did not mean to speak of the Noble Lord in any other terms than those of respect; but he must say, that some parts of his speech were more worthy of the audiences of Southwark, Covent garden, and Palace•yard, than for the ear of the Parliament to, which they were addressed—(Hear). — If any man could bring himself to believe that his political opponents could be so senseless as to wish to establish a military despotism on the ruins of that Constitution under which they possessed all that was dear and valuable to man, he did, from the bottom of his heart, pity the political bigotry of such a per son—Wear, hear).—But if there were persons who I. were likely to drive them to a Military Government, it was those self-called and mis-named Reformers, 'whose object was to promote anarchy. They were the real enemies of the country, in the commotion they occasioned, in the fears they awakened. They banished public confidence, interrupted industry, and destroyed public happiness and public prosperity.— The Noble Lord concluded by saying, that he hoped the country would prosper under the Laws and Con stitution which the people had inherited from their fathers, and which he hoped they would hand down unimpaired to their`ehildren. Colonel DAVIES said, the House must be aware that his opinion was that our Military Establishment was much greater than the state of the country res quired ; and that every part of oar Army, and all connected with it, was so extravagant, as to require the immediate attention of Parliament. The corn. motions in the country were made up of the lowest dregs of the populace; and might have been put down by the laws, and the sensible part of the com munity, without the assistance of a single soldier in the country. If Ministers, with the Legislature, and the whole people of property in the country, could not have put down such petty insurrections, alone caused by distress and starvation, they were unworthy of their situations--(llear, hear). He was, at all events, convinced, that our Army, as it stood in 1819, before the augmentation of 11,000 men, would have been sufficient for every purpose ..rlf . internal tranquillity. Besides, that augmentation could not have been required by any addition to our Colonies. So far from armies regulating public opinions, the history of all countries had strewn that the armies had always followed the opinions of the people. If the people were loyal, employ them to keep the peace; if they were tainted with revolutionary prin ciples, armies would be able to stop them. In order to put the motion in.a shape as little exceptionable - as possible, he should propose an Amendment on the Amendment, to move that the number should be 80,479, instead of 77,224, as proposed by the Noble Lord (Nugent).—The Motion and the two Amend. ments having been put, General Sir 11. VIVIAN said, that the circum stances of the country, in the last autumn, bad been so dangerous and peculiar, that the increase of the armed force was a wise and necessary measure. The Army was then redirced to its - lowest state. He had at that time an appointment on the Staff in the west of Scotland, and he should state a few of the facts which, in his opinion, justified the increase of the Army. In a very short space round,Glasgow there were 800,000 people. The effect of blasphemous • and seditious publications, and of artful instigations upon the population, had been such that they had forgotten their duty to their Magistrates, and he might almost say, (which was strange in a country where the religious habits of the people had been so exemplary,) their duty to their Gon. Id Paisley, for instance, in the course of a tumult the pedple pur sued the Magistrates, and broke into a Church where they bad taken refuge. He• had learned from a friend of his wbo had witnessed it, that a Meeting of 25,000 of the disaffected took place, where they as sembled and dispersed jn a manner which would have done credit to eny-regular Army. The unfortunate -accident at Greenock would never, he was convinced, have occured if the prisoners had been.escorted by regular troops instead of volunteers.. Whough he was well aware that a small regular force could dis-- perse a large mob, he thought a larse . force more likely to inspire that awe which might . prevent a great ultimate expense and bloodshed. What right had they to suppose that - the spirit which actuated the persons concerned in The insurrection:of the Ist of April, was now subdued, or that the people who had then risen in rebellion against the Government, had in a few months become loyal subjects? (Hear). Mr. HOBHOUSE said, it had been observed by the Noble Secretary at War, that the arguments which had been urged against the present amount of the Army, were only fit for the Meetings of Palace yard and Covent-garden. The Noble Lord, though an inhabitant of the Metropolis, seemed not to know, that by the measures of his colleagues, the People were preventedfrom having hustings in Palace-yard, and could only have them at stated periods in Co. vent-garden—(d laugh).—He should take the liber t y to say, that if the arguments .26:diet the Standi ng Armyre i r w f e v Ywfiert fo r e o l t y h . e fi t ß f e o f r o tirmroesers' thearsuments in be they what they might. 'The disuse oethe situa tion of the country4ttrintlee refty, *as said to O have been a sutffcient juncati, fir 'the increase of -;"" ory le w t lic c. A yer, !orris rrc 1. .01