Star. — London, England, 1812-02-04 00:00:00

subjects, and for the purpose of persecutiofi and in toleralee, then the grounds for this motion were laid. 'lle question ought to be stated fairly and openly. If the concessions denisnda were grant ed, what security to the Constitution would ensue? —But it had been stated, that they merely asked their natural rights. It was too late in the day to drag back the discussion to natural rights, because those rights were best estimated in the presei vation of social order ; —and it would not be contended by the most ze alous for these alledged rights, that the Constitution had been abridged more than was !necessary for the order of civil society.—lf the ad vocates for the Catholics wished to _extend their rights, the question ought to he so stated ; the Con stitution must be altered to satisfy them, for they had the;i share of it. The preservation of the Constitu- Von, as settled at the Revolution, was to be looked to, and it had been deemed expedient to exclude Ca 'thriller, as a measure of security to the State. The Legislature had then found it necessary, for the es sential of the Constitution was the preservation of the Established .Church. (Hear, hear.) Indeed, Gen tlemen vilio were now most eager for those natural rights, called that epoch in our history, " the glorious Revolution," and that Revolution provided those safeguards for our Civil and Religious Liberties.— trperience had taught our ancestors that two sorts of Religion in the State were not congenial to its safety. It remained with the advocates of the Ca tholics to sliew the necessity therefore for altering this state of*thing4. What was now asked ?—A full •rtie: of political power, because the Catholic that it must now be discussed with a deuce of pas sion and animosity unbecoming the occasion ; but at the same time he lamented its introduction, he was somewhat consoled by the reflection, that it had fallen into the hands of his Eoble Friend, whose principles and talents so well b,aEtted him for the task, and who had discharged that task in a manner so agreeable to the opinions of b friends, so flattering to himself, and so deserving the favour, the approbation, and the admiration oPtik House of Commons. (Hear, hear.) Agreeing with his Noble Friend in some points, and diffenng from him in others, he should state his agreement with all the warmth whichnatu tunny proceeded from respect and esteem ; and he hoped that he should state the topics in which he dif fered from him, with that temper and moderation which should mark his regret while it maintained his principles. His Noble Friend had set out with sta. ting, that some transactions which occurred in the ' course of last summer, had influenced him to bring forward the motion then under their consideration.— but if that motion was intended to embrace the con . duct of the Government, and to pronounce Upon its interference as an interference contrary to law, he (Mr. Canning) was prepared to give it a complete negative. At the same time he was not prepared to state, a priori, that the act to which reference had been so often made, was intended to operate against such meetings as those of the Catholic Committee ; but being advised that it was so by the Law Officers of the Clown, he thought that Cievernment would have taken upon themselves a most grievous resp.m. sibility, if, in defiance of such advice, they stood aloof from the proceedi and shut their ears against the particip.at. pt po. had full enjoyment of his religious opinions and pro tection of property, The Right Honourable and Learned Gentleman then commented on the degree of influence which the Priests of the Catholic persua sion exercise Over their flock—the blind submission of that flock to their pastors—the influence, dangerous as it was, of a foreign power over their spiritual con cerns, especially when that power is at present under the dominion of Fiance. This was the opinion, he observed, of the hest friends of the Catholics, and he -;nion of the -micelle of Oxford ' pt gngs, - representations of those who watched over the law, and who complained of its infringement and violation. With regard to the transactions that followed this in timation to the Government ; so far from calling for the motion, they rendered it inexpedient, f. r the amount of all was that the m:oter was in a state of legal process—(Hear, /war.) ' He could not think that any thing had happened from the beginning of those differences up to the present moment which called upon the House to set to Ireland the fearful ole of An interference upon the part of the Le means of marking the particular sect ag_tin)t whom they thought proper to direct their promions. The Parliament of Great Britain would never adt pt the idea of becoming Contraversionists—they never could have intended to argue with the Priests and Bisbcp. upon the doctrines of their faith. He knew that some Gentlemen were fond of talking of the suff.rings of Ireland in remote and almost unremembered periods , —of its being treated as a conquered cuuntry from time immemorial, and injured and repressed in cen -4.-s lour. .but he would nat so far back instanced the i.pinion of the Chancellor tor( his letter to Lord Fnigal, to shew that the influence was dangerous ; an oriition which had not been pro mulgated by the " bigotted champions of intolerance and persecution," but by the leader of the Catholic example of :v.. _....e up, IN of gislativeAuthority with the natural and proper course of judicial law.—He should oppose the proposition for going into a Committee when that was the object, or when it could be mistaken for the object of the turies long past—but a._ mu] n. go to count its wrongs. any mare than he would look back to the Norman Conquest with respect to this country, for the purpose of complaining of the Cur- few—(A laugh.) But part of the way he must go - . fir advocates. He deprecated the idea, that taking the sense of Parliament was the way to allay the irrita tion, or that keeping alive the expectancy of conces sions which the public interests would not allow, was the best mode of securing the tranquillity of the State. The c , mcessions, if granted, would, instead of producing the effect desired, engender discontent and disunion in the two Governments, On : , cccrint of the difference in religious opinions. It was the very nature of man, and so would remain until that n ture was altered. The subject of these political dif ferences was, as the Noble Lord had very emphati cally said, " the stepping stone to ambition." The Catholics, he believed, did not want a Catholic Se cretary of State or a Cath lac Chancellor ; the main body were firmly attached to the united empire.— The number that would be benefited by the removal of the disabilities would be few in comparison with the great body. Concessions had been made and still demanded. The average of the Protestant sub jects was, be observed, as 5 to 1, and they were not disposed to part with their rights and privileges.— In examining -tne question, it would be necess:isy to look to future consequences, if the removal of the restrictions was to be granted. In the House of Commons one hundred Members were returned, and it was probable, that if Catholics were admitted to seats in Parliament, every Member from Ireland would be a Catholic—(Hear, hear.)---The silence of the British nation was not to be taken as a silent acquiescence in the justice of the claims, lin, as a con• viction that they would not attend to t!.. m; for if •'- - - blr Legislature. (Hear). He would allow that the bare fact of having acted according to law, did not go to prove a proper purpose in the minds of the persons so conducting themselves ; on the contrary, he saw many cases in which the bare latter of the law was lament ably deficient as a moral rule or a polilical precept; but would thcy.call for a Committee to examine into the motives of Government ; or, if they did call for such a Committee, would it be possible to avoid in• traducing another party, as well as the Government, the party of the Catholics themselves, whose conduct c , uld not be contemplwect without score reprehen sion ? ( Hear, hear). He was aware that in coming the discus s ion of this question, in which the feel ings and passions of men were so warmly interested, without adopting in some measure the violence of a partizan, was appearing to great disadvantage, and embarking in a cause without any great likelih,,od of pleasing either patty ; but such a disadvantage he was not afraid to meet. If he knew his own heart, he c..me to the present question uninfluenced by such motives as either power or p•spulatity could suggest ; he sought not the triumph of either party, but the tranquillity, the security, and the happiness of the whole.—Much had been said of the understanding entered into at the time of the Union. An under standing there certainly was, though not expressed by the Legislature, that whenever the Catholic cl urns were brought forward in that House, they should be candidly, distinctly, and dispassionately discussed.— The Catholics sem given to understand, that though under their own separate and resident Legislation, ded with the local - and th?' back, to find ie beginling of the restrictions now under consideration. What then was the state of Eu rope after the reformation had taken place ? There arose at that time two sets more influenced by the zeal of sectarism than by the love of country. The Catholics and the Protestants were attached each to their own persuasion, without regard to those sacred ties which bird us to our native climates, and the Catholics of this nation were more aliied to the Ca tholics of any other nation than to their Protestant felow subjects who were children of the same sod.— Under those. circumstances, regulations might be ne cessary which should exist in no other case. In what country of Europe were there not religious straggles, though such struggles should not be considered com mon to all other times, as had been stated, nor ari sing out of any cause inseparable from our nature.— Ofthose who contended that they were, he would ask, did history bear them out ? Was it true that the fourteen Cantons of Switzerland, consisting of Ca tholics and Protestants, and other dissenters, had come to a generous resolution to bury all retigit.us animosities? and was it true, that front that time they went on with perfect political agreement ? (Cries of Hear, hear, krar 1) -His Right Honourable Friend might say, that though this might have been the case with small States, there was a odliculty when they came to make the application of it to great ones. The distussirm of that piinciple would lead into m:- nute enquiry, and the instance he had already quoted must go against the generality of the argument. Lut what if the same agreement had existed in anotlar ? Why if •- the people enteitained a different opinion, t!ht table of the House would be crowded with petitions. The Right Honourable and Learned Gentleman at great length .enforced the necessity for refusing to accede to the motion, in the apprehension which he enter tained of the danger arising from concession, in the View which he had previously taken. The first change to be wrought was an alteration in the turbo. truce of the Catholics. The physical force of the people of that persuasion in Ireland was under the controul of the Priesthood ; a circumstance which might be taken advantage of for the worst of purpo ses. Besides, it was the nature of those who profess ed different religions, to eye one another with jea lonsy ; they might as well expect that two stars would keep their course in the same sphere. After some complimentary remarks upon the conduct which the Legislature had hitherto adopted towards the Ca tholics, and the attention with which they had always considered their claims, he expressed a hope, that surrounL passun , prejudices that unfortunately exis!e,l in their own country, the subject of their requests could not be coolly deliberated ; yet here, where local feelings did not act, end where the prejudices agahist them were comparatively tempe rate, they might reasonably expect that sort of dis cussion which alone could lead to a rational and en lightened decision ; but now that thattimewasarrived, that the union was accomplished, and the question was open to a cool and impartial consideration, his Right Honourable Friend had insinuated principles which must shut the door against their expectations. He agreed with his Noble Friend, as to the great im. portauce of the subject, but he thought his Noble Friend did not agree with him, as to the magnitude of the difficulties that encompassed it; but whatever difficulties might be entertained as to the view which his Noble F: iend had taken of it, his Right Hon. Friend had done much to simplify the question, and to remove the difficulties that surrounded it. If, ac country : ,at it bud existed in France from the period of the edict cf Mintz, ticwn to its subsequent,' revocatioir I Let them look to the words of Oa: ta• mous edict, they would find it declaring, that for the purpose of stiflaig all complaints, ail subjects, ut whatever religion, should be capable of 11:ailing ()f -ilets without taking any other oa•h than to be tali's. ful to the King. They would find that Henry IV. proceeded (tor he was speaking of no less a man) to provide for the filling of all of•#ices in the State without regard to the distinctions of sect, or to the prejudices of religious jealousy. He did not say that they were bound to fol.ow the example of France.— That admission would come rather oddly atter the new philosophy. But when they had before them the opinion of the greatest Monarch of that nation, in times when he had not barely to calculate upon pos sible resistance, but to encounter open opposition— when they had, in Lis opinion, in such circum stances, that the best course or mode of proceeding neither they nor their advocates ‘toukl suppose that Parliament was to be intimidated into compliance by icpeated and frequent applications, but would look to a cool and deliberate exercise of judgment as their best dependence, an most effectual advance to suc cess. If they adopted a conduct of this sort, their claims, as far as consistent with the safety of the state, would be granted almost by acclamation. But let them skew what securities they would give, let them state when they would stop in their demands, ..ind allow for those points on which the Protestants %..ould insist—a Protestant Throne, the security of their civil establishments and religious liberties. Mr. CANNING said, that having the misfortune to be one of those persons whom the Noble Lord who opened the debate marked out to the particular disap rrobatinn of the House and of the Country ; having rile misfortune to be one of those who could not go L ., (mire length of granting the claim of unlimited being determined against voting for such biro, but being determined much more against sanc cording to him, the only consideration was, whether they should return to former disabilities, or whether they should go on, he could have no doubt as to the side upon which he should vote. Indeed, when he looked to the state in which Ireland now stood, with a great population, growing daily in wealth and intel ligence, aspiring from what they had already tasted of freedom, to wish for more, and proceeding in a na• tural gradation, from the accomplishment of much, to the desire and ambition of greater. When he loo}.- ed to this situation, a situation to which they wore raised from a condition in which no class of people had ever before been placed in a Christian comtry, he could not agree that it was wise to mind': them from the pale of the Constitution. Since the period of their humiliation, they had disclaimed mr-ny tenets once imputed to them, or perhaps he show ;d not have reprobated so strongly as he was inclined to do, the isotolic doctrine of his Right Hon. Friend. His Right ! Hon. Friend had said, the more the Catholic was re stricted, the rucre quiet he became. This probably . . was conciliation : it was impossible to despise such an authority ; and looking from his judgment to the racti.cal consequences of his plan, it was still more impassible to despise that measure which placed Sully at the head of the Council, and sent Schomberg, Turenne, and Saxe to share the glories of the fiel.l _(Hear, Hrar, hear.) It was impossible not to approve of such conduct in that monarch, whose splendid Court was the envy and the terror of all Europe, at a moment when the world seemed to la bour under a religious dotage, and when he himself was under the influence of 4in intriguing mistress.— Who, if he were asked, whether nc would wish to live in that grand epocli, or in any subsequent epoch of that country, would not readily, and eagerly, and without hesitation, place his finger on the homer. Our Government had found its policy at all limes in lending assistance to the Reformation; that assist ance led to the interference of the Catholics in our affairs, and every thing which was done against the Protestants on the Continent, was visited in penal * timing by his vote the principle recommended by his Right Hun. and Lcatued Friend ; a principle which Would go to shut the door against the hopes of the Catholics, and though not expressly contended for, yet consey ientially and necessary to lead to the Le enactment ut those penal statutes which had once dis graced uur legislation. Being unfortunately one of those persons, thus circumstanced, he wished to tres was true, but it was a truth which might lead therii too far. It seemed to approach .'ne old adage, that 4 1 dead men tell no tales," for it must be granted, that the man in whom the soc;,al passions were extin guished, was likely to be quiet enough, (hear, hear.) But did his Right Hun. Friend really think that such a coure was politic ? Did he think that, having re moved the chain from. the Catholic, we should leave statutes upon the Catholics of Ireland at home. He did not recommend this system, he did not approve of it ; from the period of the revocation of the Edict of Nantz, and when the Revolution in this country had raised her freedom to its perfez.tion, her restra;nts were doubled upon Ireland, and every succeeding Legislature seemed to vie with the other in a con test to make t►e situation of Ireland • slavish _ - more . AIM. - pas t i lt some time on the attention of ti House, d him that he once wasand a liuk behind to remind degraded ; and, begging pardon of his Right Nvhile be stated his candid sentiments upon his great fettered ? that ha-ling broken off the bonds with/ Honooratda Friend, tranquillizing too--(4/gesh.) c l ues:ion. (Hear, hear.) He could not avoid re. which he was orce s urrounded, we should leave a L oo ki ng to t h e year 168.5, when the Edict o f Mintz I . , ,,ettlng deeply that it was brought forward now • ' he brand behind, to denote that h e was not always fr ee 1 was revoked, we saw our shores covered w i t h a fly- 1 egretted it from an opinion, which the speech of his Was this to legislate in the spirit of wisdom, or wa s i t ins Cleqpr--ilyiag from persecution. -"Whataregit tight Hon. niend WAS not calculated to diminish, not rithaV to adopt a headlong and precipitate vio. Protestant-flying from what persecutiunf From lease, disgraceful to tie character, as It must he Inju- i the persecution of Catholic Prance! (Hear, rieus to the interests of the country ? But were they to —And this we saw visited upon Ireland. In a :2) suppose that circumstances had changed the nature wry after, we again beheld our shores covered ev i l !; of die disabilities under which the CiptMicsformAy a flying clergy, flying from persecution. wh it ' laboured, and that that which was once soessentially clergy ? Catholic. Flying fro m W h at what necessary to the security of the State, should now be From the persecution of Atheistical France! A cancelled, as being useless? For his part, he could this we were again called upon t o avenge upon Id not admit such an apology for the past. He could not Catholic p. Intlation of Ireland— (Hear, h aw .) i r e conceive any state of society in which such restrictions were they so blind as to confound the case s ? w e :: could be justified. He could not approve of such they so blind as to .uppose that the same rttgedy means of producing quiet He could not vote was applicable to each, it indeed it was justifiable for propping up a state by dissociating human nature either ? The mitigation of the Popery laws whiff so completely, and violating all the principles of afterwards took place was a warning o f a cha Government, both in a political and moral view.— though his Right Honourabl e F r i en d was not :ft' Excuses might, certainly, have existed then, which situation to lift his warning voice agai nst i t. did not exist now, for those who would defend, not knew that there were some who represented t h e the system, but the fragments of the system, net the Catholics as having obtained all the privii ert hi o :", Machine, but the remnants of a machine broken and to granted to them under circumstances nut scattered in those latter times by the growing libera. honourable to the liberality of this country, an d lities of the human mind. The 011111 lay on those times when they were rather exacted from cur w e ,,,. - who recommended such perverse industry, to shew ness than obtained from our justice . I t m i ght 1 ; e .upon what principle it was necessary to shew to itt- true to a certain degree, that in 178'2, the situation' s tune ages what that system was—(hear, !star!) His which we stood facilitated the concessions th en m s ,4 Right Honourable Friend had argued the question to Ireland ; but he be:ieved it was equity true that as it' it was solely a religious one, but he should ar- ; these were not concessions to the Irish Cah o u et. , gue it, he felt it his duty to argue it in that House rhe Protestant, upon his own pint, came askpt t upon a political ground alone. His Right Honour- boons fuom England, ot which h e did not d eal able Friend had said t - at he would not go into the lequal portion to his Catholic brethren. I t was test docirnie of Transubstantiation, or the adoottion of that ftee tr.tde and other privileges were gr mid t o Saints, or other mysterious points. But .shy did he the Irish community; but it as riot fair to w ee not go into them ? Because he took them for trom thence that the concessions to the C a tli n granted, and argued on them without submitting to were not granted voluntarily aad f,eely . si tteel796 the inconvenience of proving them. When the Le- n thing material had been granted to them Vp t o .isiat ure se l ect ed t hose doctrines, it was only as . the . the preseut period ; tut could a n y one - maintain - dus - what remained to be gianted si,ould he withheld? unless he was possessed of the s ime Af.1.1 in the ence of numbers with his Right Um-arable Friend, ssho had said, that if the Catholics were frw, it Ir a nut worth white t. , grant the r claims, and it ow % it was not safe --(4 laugh.) It WAS the opinion 4 many, that a temperate Ji.cossion could not be had till the Union had taken place. That time rat ooa arrived : but, as if obstacles were ever is b e 'b tu ., the way of the argument, the Catholics in a lasei n . --e had been ill advised -eh to - stance hau adru._ . enough to put forward among the number of their claims the repeal of tls Union : a repeal of the. Union (exclaimed Mr. Causal) —a 'dissolution of the two kingdoms—a disublutina 4 the heptarchies I But if theproposit. oa was not . ficient to the purposes of good , it was efficient to tio purposes of evil. Indefesence to the Honourable Gentleman who had given notice Of the :notice ft that repeal, that if Paraaeteat were even to it, and it he by his eloquence was to rennin arty. ing it, the situation of the Catholics ebb respect w the objects of their ambition would be outer* worse. It would be injutiotts to the Ca th olic ids. rests, and it would be high treason against squats Ireland. If a man were to set about devisieg an impediment to the Catholic Cause, he could at succeed better than by knitting those two &ash together ; but with respect to the %isles of theCatbs. lies for an enlargement of the privileges they at pm. rant possessed, he had alwayseonsidered themrative. Would any man who had the right to vote, set Me in time for the right to sit ? Was it to be believed that Parlament had granted him the one without a view to the ultimate granting of the other ? Was itle be believed that they would have opened to thesis bar, if they ,intended eternally to shut up from thee the avenues to the bench ? Was it to be believedtint they would have permitted them to acquire poverty, and to act in all the subordinate parts of the political system, if they intended, with his Right Honourable and Leaned Friend, eternally to exclude elm fee office? They were referred to the Revolution in Traac and no man was more inclined to reftr toil than be,fat exampl s that ought to be avoided and detested. IA them not shut th.!ir eyes to the state of the boiy pais tic of France, which had rendered it snseeptibleto tk pois mof Ito , . 1,16 .n. Let them not forget that tbs ~.xi.tence of unpopular and unjust distinctions, Ai* .-ith-tit the policy of the Popery Code to extiarik the rising spirit from that energy ',faction to who it must have tended, exhibited principles equally Objec tionable. If he was to divide the right of veiling Eros the r . t i ght of sitting, without any view to their &ale connection, he did not know whether he weak ait rather give the higher privilege, than refuse the lower; whether he would not rather give to a people died high spirit, cf such great powers of thinking, al sedi resources, of such energies and determiaatines, the light to sit in Parliament, than a sight to return dotir Members, with an intention of shutting them oat*, the topmost round cf their ambition. But it had bee said that the gre.at body of the people were not Ss! rested in this. Oh, nd ignorance d ham nature, not to know tga r the bare possibility of area. nest called forth all the faculties of the mind, ad Al the grzatness of the character 1 To uke the Bar* an instance. Was it proper that, fi lled withC,atliek lawyersof great abilities, and influence over thepublit mind, they should not be admissible to the Bescbl.. No man thought more highly than he did of the Is; it had given t.) that house some of its greatest on& meets—it hid given to the State some of its age Statesmen—it hid given to the community at kit some of the most distinguished of its members.. they were to deprive the Bar of the natural of ambit on, what would be the consequence% Catholics being the more numerous class of the osa munity, would consequently supply the grater wmo bey to the Bar ; there would thus, in time, be ACP tholic Bar and a Protestant Bench, and what la kii" nitc r,tirce of dissitisfsctiou and discontent tenaM created by the eternal separation of that Bar frell9 lo Bench ? According to the proposition of his are Hon. Friend, too. there could never be a nativeoio thvi:c :ref al. -Foreign Catholic Generals may' the enemy at the head of British cavalry. be 111 ,1 i never could be a native Catholic:General to Widow to action.— (Hoer, leer.) He besought' dmi,ll4llll thllefore. net t. , shut chi door againsitheekedbe k brave native °Seen, by the trinqu:ll , sing vote posvd by his Right Hon. Friend.—(Asee. ber_._•r; They b!)olald be so re* Isere, it sonteed•M' there was to be a Catholic Chencelinet or a General nt the head of a British army. the NM', Bonaparte would inspire such Catholic (Us ^ or Gmetal to bring in their religion, and 10 z.iY— get our Protestant Escils those fedrs visionary t When the r ogr future times shall point out the limits dr ama endeaVotn. to number the distinctions d will dud them all terming ems adoreillW • dos. The troth S dint ail his actiofts