Star. — London, England, 1813-05-15 00:00:00

r .• ' • alliance bad taken place between this country an( any foreign power ? Lord LIVERPOOL said, he felt all the imper tance of the subject to which the Noble Earl had called his attention, and his Majesty's Ministers could state to him and the House, that nothing done by - Government would be withheld from Parfiament, if they were at liberty at a period like.the present to afford explanation. With respect to foreign powers, his Lordship was sure the Noble Earl would feel that any disclosure on that sibject, without it was , stated in all its bearings,. would lead to great ember rassment. • He could not, with that view of the sub jeCt, feel that he was acting consistent to his public duty. if he then gave a particular answer or explana nation ;- but the day perhaps was not tar distant, when his Lordship might have an opportunity of diacriNtig to the House our relations with foreign powers, and what are the engagements with those . rowers. The Noble Earl would doubtless feel there was a subject to be discussed which might lead to ex ' planation of the kind required, and he (Lord Liver pool) would not fail to give the fullest explanation at the first opportunity. Earl GREY intimated in reply, that he was not satisfied with the answer of the Noble Earl. In throwing out general observations on rumours which reached him, he had conceived that he should have received a direct answer from one of his Majesty's Government- He had been silent even to the pe riod of t he commencement of the campaign, when all the resources of the country were to be employed.— ' He had not spoken until the period when his Majes • ty'e Ministers, surrounded by fortunate circumstances, had not made any attempt to obtain peace, or carry on vigor, sss war. Here the conversation ended. NAVAL ADMINISTRATION. The Earl of DARNLEY rose, on the order of the day, to cal the attention of their Lordships to the conduct of Government with respect to the American War. His Lordship said, he tett diffidence in 'bring ing forward the subject, conceiving himself to be un equal to the task it imposed. Within those walls they had long been accustomed to hear of brilliant achieve ments, and welhearned rewards bestowed on heroes in the field. He was there to call their attention to Naval affairs, unfertuea,tely the reverse of those splendid victories which had so often demanded the Thanks of Parliament. He labouied under consi. derable disadvantage, by being deprived of the sup port of a Noble Marquis, who was prevented from at tending by indisposition. Another circumstance had occurred to embarrass him :—Since notice was given of his motion, another disaster had occurred, which be did not expect in the nature of events. [l'he Nellie Earl alluded to the report of the recent success obtained by the Hornet.] Having commented on that event, his Lt rdship contended that Ministers had evinced great indifference to the interests of the Navy, and drew a conclusion that the war with America # might have been prevented by proper negociation.— The measures adopted by Government had led to the war, and when they were assured by the best informa tion that war was inevitable, they neglected those preparations required long before the war ensued. With a sufficient naval force on the coast of America, the swarm of privateers which had annoyed our trade would have been •icept in, and a blockade established that might have produced, long since, peace and good understanding with the country. Instead of provid ing a sufficient farce, Government bad sent out but one line-of-battle ship, and several ships of less force. The enemy, at the same time, had a fine of five frig ties and twenty sloops, all qualified for sea, and ranty to seize our merchant vessels. He had a right to suppose the military force in Canada, at the break ing out of the war, did not exceed the naval, and it might be skid, in justice to those great men who fell in their country's cause, that it was the superior or ganization of the 13: itish troops only, that gained the advantages which ensued at the commencement of the war. Had Ministers stationed only five sail of the line and 17 frigates, they would have established a complete blockade. With that force they would have cut up the American commerce, and . from the unpopularity of the war, the parties hostile to this country would have been desirous of peace —The next subject was, the quality of the force sent out. Ministers bad long known the strength of the Ame rican frigates : they had seen the Constitution at Spit head, and surely the Lords of the Admiralty might have laid down frigates eenal to those of the Ameri cans. There could be no doubt, that an Am: rican and a Briti,h frigate, of equal force, woull receive in an action damage nearly alike; but it was known th At the American frigates were suprior in the weight of guns, and the size of the hull. The Americans carried 24-potinders, and the British 18. Their fri gates were larger, and, in an action, British 18-pound shot, acting on a large mass, could not possibly pro duce the effect which the heavy shot from the Ame rican would, acting on a small hull. His Lordship paid the highest compliment to the Officers and crews of the ships taken by the American frigates, observ . ing, none would say they had not. been fought well. He adverted particularly to the Java, and stated, that she had only 98 able seamen on board when the engagement took place. Her Captain was impressed! .with an idea of the insufficiency of his crew long be fore the action.—After so many victories gained by the Americans over the bravest and most experienced seamen in the world, none would deny the necessity for making an inquiry into the causes which had led to those captures. If an adequate force had been prepared to meet the enemy, the losses we had to deplore would not have happened. The state and condition of our ships should occupy the attention of the Navy Board, which had of late evinced an obsti nate adherence to old customs, and a rejection of all improvements. A Noble Earl, then in the House, who was the inventor of many valuable improvements in naval architecture, would doubtless point out how the same might be used with benefit to the country, provided Government were inclined to make use of them. His Lordship having reviewed all the appa rent abuses in the Naval Dea,artmen a paid the highest tribute to the bravery of the British Navy, and la mented. that those vessels which so often conquered, should be cornpeled to str.ke to a foe superior on all occasions,—not hravety, but in strength.—Lord Darnley concluded an able speech with moving, hat a Committee be appo.ntrd to ingtsire in:o the crcuns stanc of the War httwe a or Untied Siat,s and this Country. and m pat titularly with rtsptc to Ito. ccuiluct of those who have h i d the tii,posal of his Mi,jaat)'s ;s;aval korai." Lord .MELVILLE replied at great lengit to' all .he points of observation introduced by th Noble earl. He trusted, he said, that he should Ise able to chew that there were no sufficient . grounds for going into a Committee on the subject, and, that in the present circumstances there was nothing to have induced the Noble Lord to expect that the House should entertain his proposition. The Noble Earl had entered at great length into the origin of the war with America, but this he did not consider as form ing any part of the present question, and therefore should not follow him through all his remarks on this part of the subject. It was impossible, indeed, at present, to entertain any question, respecting the origin of the war. The only subject of discussion was, the manner in which the-war had been con ducted. The Noble Lord , had contended, that we ' had not employed a sufficient force on the coast of America, and-that a greater force ought to have been ready for that purpose, previously to the break ing out of the war. He would admit so far the state ment of the Noble Lord, that the war, from the temper of the Americans, might have been in some degree expected, but there existed at the same time a general feeling in this country, that the repeal of the Orders in Council would have operated v change in the opinions and temper of the American People. The cause, or rather the pretended cause of the war, as the relations between the two countries now stood, was nothing less than an abandonment of our mari time rights, on which our very existence, as well as greatness as a Maritime State, depended. (Hear,lseer.) The Noble Lord had contended, that we ought at all times to have had a sufficient force ready in case of a rupture with America. I do admit, (says the Noble Viscount) that it was the duty of Government to keep a sufficient force at all times in th it quarter, to keep in check the American Navy, and to protect our own trade in those seas, and it now remains for us to inquire how far this duty was performed. In carrying on the war in which we were now engaged, it was our duty also to curtail our expences as much as possible, that our means and resources might be applicable to other places of not less importance. The Noble Lord had said, why did you not take your ships foam other places, and send them to America ? This might be alt very true, if the blockading squa drons in Europe had been unnecessary—but in look ing at the situation the enemy, could this for a mo ment be admitted to be the case ? At Toulon alone the enemy had teenty•six sail of the line equipped for sea. Government was, therefore, certainly jus tified in not diminishing our blockading force at home. It might even be a question bow fair they were justified in not having increased it. Had Ame rica declared war at an earlier period, a greater part of our fleet might have been more disposable ; but at the period the war was declared, the Northern fleet, as well as the others, was already sufficiently occupied. The Noble Lord then took a view of the actual state of our force on the coast of America and in the West Indies, for protecting our commerce, and keeping in check any attempts on the part of the Americans at the breaking out of the war, and con tended that that force was not so inadequate as stated by the Noble Earl. He adverted to the several fri gates that had been taken by the Americans, and :hewed that these events, however much to be re gretted, had been owing to circumstances that could infer no blame on the Government, nor attach any discredit to our Navy. The Guerriere having been separated in a gale from her company, had the mis fortune to fall in with a much superior force, but the result reflected no dishomzir on the Navy. On the subject of blockading the American coast so coin pletely as to pievent the sailing of any of the enemy's vessels, be contended that it was impossible to insti tute such a bluekade against all their ports. From the very nature of things, cruizers would occasionally make their escape, and ships had even been taken on our own coast. The force, however, was sufficient for every practicable purpose. With respect to the Courts Martials on the captured frigates, there was no doubt that the Members of those Courts had suffi ciently done their duty in examining every thing, and their sentences, though every circumstance m'ght not be noticed in their minutes, were a sufficient ground to satisfy their Lordships. With respect to our naval architecture, he contended that no nation was, or ever had been, superior to us in that respect—and measures had been already taken to remedy the evil the Noble Lord had alluded to. The effects of the blockade had been already felt in every state of Ame rica, and their trade and commerce were suffering severely by the measures we had taken. He opposed the motion as unnecessary, and without any fair and justifiable ground. Earl STANHOPE regtetted that the Noble Vis count had not yielded to his suggestion of speaking before him, as the Noble Viscount might have an swered, in that case, both his Noble Friend's speech and his at the same time—(A laugh.) The Noble Viscount had shewn much ability, but he did not think he had answered the speech of the Noble Lord who had made the motion. The Noble Earl, after some farther introductory remarks, spoke at great length on the subject of ship-building, and with much humour, and often with a degree of raillery peculiar to himself. He quoted the authority of a very able Admiral of the Fleet (Peckman), that naval archi tecture was yet in a very imperfect state ; that the art' of navigation was only in its infancy ; that a more per fect period was approaching; and that whatever State should take the lead, would obtain a political eminence in the scale of nations. The great prin ciple in naval architecture that his Lordship laid down, was—that ships should be introduced to carry as much metal with as little draught of water as pos sible. This would be an invention more valuable than that of gunpowder itself. His Lordship then took a long view of the experiments he himself had made on this subject, with the observations and experiments of several naval characters. He gave an account of the proceedings of the Society of Naval Architecture, of which he was a member, and at whose experiments he had always assisted. He had often occasion to witness the ignorance of the Boards of Admiralty, (though he said nothing of the present), and even ot' some Admirals themselves with whom he had dis putes, for he liked to dispute with Admirals (a laugh). He explained the whole art of obtaining quickness tnd stability in sailing, and his various experiments on that subject. He referred to the amine torpedo, intro,:uced by Mr. Fulton, and slimed why his ex rim, nt wag unsuccessful at Boulogne, and where successful, what was the cause of it. He had tor ,merly given notice of a method to prevent the effects of this torpedo, but it had not been yet adopted. He hoped he should soon see it adopted In our fleet on _the toast of America, or We might every day expect to hear of our ships being blown up in that quarter, to the destruction of the lives of our brave officers and seamen. He explained the causes of the dry rot in ships, and the manner of preventing it. He sta ted, that by dividing the interior of vessels by parti tions they might, in case of leaks or other accidents, be prevented from sinking. They might also be se cured from fire, by only planking them on the out side and coppering. He warmly recommended the application of mathematical science to ship-building and navigation, add pointed out the necessity of employing large vessels of such a construction as could approach a lee shore. This became necessary in the present circumstances of Europe, particularly when the enemy occupied so extensive a line of coast. The Earl/of GALLOWAY contended, that the Near with America had been, in a great measure, the malt of thepoliey of this country joining the coali tion against France, by exciting the envy and jea-, ' lousy of the United States. He hoped, that in case of peace taking place, we should give a Constitution to Canada, to secure the fidelity and safety of that colony. His Lordship alluded to the production of the late Mr. Fox on this subject, and had no doubt, that unless we gave it a Constitution, we should lose that country. He adverted to the loss of our frigates, and explained the cause as arising in. a great measure not only from the size and weight of metal of the American frigates, but from the stay in which they' were manned. The Americans, from the small num ber of their vessels, and the check that had been given to their commerce, had great abundance of seamen, and were enabled to man their navy with prime seamen only; whereas our vessels were only manned with one-third able-bodied seamen, one-third ordinary, another third landmen, and vete , few prime seamen. He recommended granting greater encou ragement to seamen, particularly as a country such as this could not dispense with the impress service. Earl GREY conceived that his Majesty's Mini. ters were highly reprehensible, not only for the cap-' tures made by the Americans, but for the extremely' injudicious proportions observed in the construction of our ships, the evils of which he detailed at some, length. A Noble Lord appeared very apprehensive that the Americans might derive extraordinary and alarming advantages from the communication of Mr. 1 Fulton's invention for blowing up ships at sea, which had been submitted to the Government of this court- try, when he:(Lord Grey) was a Commissioner of the Admiralty. It was obvious, without the scien tific aid of the Noble Lord; that, if gunpowder corn. pressed, were placed under a ship, it would blow it up by explosion. But how could this be directed against an enemy ? how place it under the ship ? you can put salt upon a bird's tail, you Can surely catch him ; but the difficulty consisted in the first Step. The conduct of the Naval Administration of the Country was not stated as a ground of censure, but merely of inquiry. The question before their Lordships was, Whether every thing had been done to distress the enemy ? he did not mean personal dis tress, bat such a pressure of public difficulty xs would I restore an amicable and moderated tone ? Whether everyprotection had been afforded to the subjects,and merchants of this realm, to which they are entitled, and which the resources of the country ate capable of affording, the losses we had suffered in our naval conflict wall America, did not detract from the established fame and reputation of our gallant sea men, because the force of the Americans had been greatly superior. Our discomfiture, however, under any circumstances, at sea, was of such vital conse quence, that even a suspicion of the fault resting with the Admiralty was a sufficient ground for inquiry.— It the American ships had by fortunate accident eled ed the vigilance of our ships, in coming out of their ports, then we should not cempl tin. But it was not accident that enabled them ; it. was the want of force on our part, or the want of its timely application.— We had before us the melancholy prospect of the de struction of our trade, even to our trade in every quarter of the globe—even to our South Sea Whale Fishery. We had been unwarily committed in a war with America. His Majesty's Ministers had resisted the Repeitl of the Orders in Council, even to the last moment of that repeal being extorted by the distresses of the Country. His Majesty's Ministers charged this war upon the hostility of an active party in America, in the interest of France ; but there were other causes on our own part to which that war might be referred. He (Lord Grey) must for ever regret and complain of the jealous and overbearing spit it which prevented Ministers from pursuing the means of maturely conciliating America. We were told by Ministers that the demands of America were in satiable and unjust—Then why not be sufficiently prepared for war ? A Noble Lord It is tad us that we should reduce our Navy to strengthen our Army, and in the same breath he declares, that the press upon our Navy is so great we cannot afford a force to blockade American ports. Engaged in a mari time war with only two powers, France and Ame rica, and having in commission one thousand ships, we hear excuses of wanting a sufficient force. The ports of the Chesapeake, Delaware, New York, and!, Rhode Island, might be effectually blockaded, some for eight months, and some during the whole of the', year. He (Lord Grey) could not suppose that a people,' having a common origin and common language, should entertain a hostile disposition to wards us. Even with all our successes in Canada, owing to the bravery of our troops, and somewhat to the faults into which the Atnericans had fallen, yet they had established an alarming advantage on Lake Erie and Lake Superior. Even Jamaica was literally in a state of block ode by American priva teers. A ship worth reloo,ooo had been captured, and continued there for two days, during wheh no British ship of war appeared in view. A fleet had been sent from Demerara under convoy of only one sloop : and even in the outer harbour of Deme. rara a ship had beerl, cut out by an American priva teer. Three South Sea Whalers had beer. captared. His Lordship next adverted to an argument of a Noble Lord, that the rate of insurance had not ma terially increased, and stated a few instances in which it had risen to an exorbitant height. His Lord ship concluded with observing, that whatever should be the decision of the House, he was fully convinced that the dearest interests of the Country actuated this inquiry. Lord BATHURST s aid, t e Nrl7 l 1 114 had departed fiom the expressed grottads of thi s NI, tion, viz. the capture or our frigates. Th., cc „ tures wete purely acciden! al, aind by nn 111 , als putable to his Majesty's 'Ministers.—( Hwy, /no: . l'he hostile temper of the Americans was so de.:11!e1 that even when the rescinding of the Orde i s i n C i . u : cil was pending in Parliament, they put f , .rtli declaration of w.tr. The dine of declaring studiously selected to i:itercept our homewrtd.h., West India fle.2t, but in this they were by the negligence of his Majesty's tll::.iityr,. of the Ships captured had !icon a Lou. and therefore might have been lost without ence of the war. W0r.1.1 Ministers liave fiable in withdraw in?; a t,.ival force front the Ho, of an enemy's coast, when America wAs with us ? Had the whole of our navy becti on dr.: American coact, yet those Frigates been taken, as was evident from the plac.zs is v:H the captures were made. His I,, , ,rd•thip with shewing that the most prudent me , sure, been pursued for conducting the war in Cant:da favourable issue. Lord GALLOWAY shortly explained. Lord GRENVILLE said, that the tb . ctria? supposing an inqu t iry to imply censure, woold gate the Constitution. The ques.ion before Lordships was, whether ctirninal imbec;:ity t.:lk; pable neglect were not visible, under alt the tirclzet. stances, in the conduct of the war ? lie vale) was particularly avcrs.e Iv a war w:111 and was most progd of that part of his public duct. He wishe:t to conciliate, Ametici by tl;e terms, but Oct by the surrender of -tn. rights. The Noble Viscoant at the head of the Admiralty a. mitred that be had no disposeable lorce at the coal_ mencement of the war, and that this had ari sen wit from negligence, but from necesNity. The %nue of the-Country with regard to America, hefor.•the r , vocation of the Orders in Council, had been mod, ton high, and the Orders had been rescinded besattse Ministers saw that Parliament would put a stop to this system. Every thing hat.turned to our di,ad. vantage in a conflict of the btrongest against the weakest naval power in the world. If it were right to build frigates of a new construction now, it woul have been right before; an 4 if wrong before, it ma i wrong now. The present Motion, however, did wit call for censure but inquiry, and lie was at a loss Z 4 I see upon what grounds it could be opposed. It had his cordial support. The Earl of LIVERPOOL obseried, that the Noble Lordi who bad enlarged sl much neon the disasters of our Navy, had coosen to preserve a poi. found silence with respect to our triumph by, land.— IHe contended that no gronoth for blAtne rested 9: the part of Government. Oa - every stati o n where Ithe Americans were likely to be met, a power ful force had been placed. That three out of the fire (American frigates !should have taken three cf our . was unfortunate,.:but wholly fiev from 'dame. For no motion was there ever less pretence than for the !present, which, therefore, hefelt it to be his duty to resist. Lord DARNLEY shorily replied. After whicb which a division took place. Contents, Is Non-cm:tests, 4 Proxi,s, 40 * -Prozire, ' -b3 Total for the Motion, 59 Against k, . 1 .5 Major:r: against ti us Mot on, —66 Adjourazd at TWo O'CIOCIC. HOME OP COMMONS. Mr. H. LASCELLES presente.l a Peti:icn from certain `Si. nnfaiatnrers and Weavers of Cotton in Yorksbim, against biting the importation of Aateric la COVOU he War.— Ordered to lie on the table. General GASCOVNE present.! a Petition, signed I.y the tkAsand Anabaptists of Live:co , l, Traying. tr eseat in Ile HMI Company's Charter being rene...,d, ter permes.ion to -et.4 nut Missionaries to India, to labour in ti.e cony' mon of t..e tivps to Christianity.—Or Jared to lie nit ti'c table. Upon the third reading of the Highway being mooed ly Mr. P. CARVAr, Sir C. MONK moved, as an amen iment, tba• it be real third time this slay three months.—A division 1..04 phre, %Lel the numbers were--I or the third rea 3tig 61 —Ag ii;i.t it 2. the Bill was accord ngly real a third time, and paced. Mr. Alderman COMM postponed the curd reading ti• tlet Smithfield Market Bill to Monday. In the Committee on the Insolvent Debtors' NE Mr. T. SMITH proposed to introduce a Clause, to extend the poet siuns of the 11111 to After some observa:i as on :he part of Mr. Conevver,tbe Clause was ordered to be added; and the Report being re. ceived, the Bill was ordered to b: recommitted on Fuesday. Mr. I.USHINGTON broug'st up the Iteort of the Mr. unique Sugar Conunittee. A Resolution was agreed to f-ic redoti•lg the Duty on Maw vado Sugar from les tid. ins Loner cunint.fn Vlanta - ton Suvr. The Report of the American Pr:ze. It was received, and die Bill ordered to he read a third time on Monday. Mr. O'HARA said, that in consequenceitit the very tido au tendance of Members then in the House, he postponed his Ma. don respecting the State of the Revenue in Iceland, until WC,I• nesday neat. Mr. GRATTAN moved the seconi rea ling of the Rom= Catholic Relief Bill; which was accordingly done. The Htfuse having then resolvd it,elt into a Committee co Bill, the Chairman reported progress, and o'.xi..ned leave to st: again ou Monday nest. Mr. W. Fl I'ZCZERALD moved for an Account of the pro• duce of different Irish lases, wh c!t were nceordtvgly laid ~sia the table, and referred to the Ctannittee of Ways and Meaa.. HOUSE IN CONVIITTEE. Mr. FITZGERALD, in the Cammittce of kVIF? and Means, briefly stated the terms on which Loan (t.wo millions of Irish currency) had been tained, and on the advantageous te:ms of which congratulated the House and tl!e cotiotry. For evc:7 4100 subscribed the subscriber v‘,..lS to ieeeive in the Three and a Half per Cents. £2i) in the per Cents. and Ail 1. I3i. in Treasury Nils. The terest would be £5. Is. Id. the f;:: • would make the total expence anumot • for every £lO9. The taxes v.seie not sot vow as those obtained last yrar by his it.;ght H-sn. F. but Caen the Loin h.ld been cnly for a : • half, the rem iiniug half m Lion hein3 sury Bills. The intetest on the last ) , Ntr's been sr. 9s. It was desirabic th it prz Loan should be raised in /:eland ; .tr.d legal rate of interest was b' per cent. Wiley raised at £5. Is. Id. making neatly a ditrerence . . - 1 per cent. beneath the legal rate. It w..s as tar as possible, to assimilate the reveniic countries, both upon the articles of lux.my and :.4 say. All the kesclutions which his K;g:a 17. • Friend (the Esagash Chancellor of !!c had induced Parliament to ad.•pt. upon ii!c bll .• of the Custom Duties, in this country. a: p ' •: 3 to Ireland. Upon all go ids impor•eJ, with '' ception of certain articles to be speci tied, i.e prci..'""