Star. — London, England, 1812-04-22 00:00:00

$s a slbject respecting which they had twice already given an opinion during the present Session. He must admit that the subject had been discussed to a certain extent on two 'occasions during the present Session ; but no decision had been come to by the House as to the merits of this question. On neither of those nights did the House come to a vote respec ting the Claims of the Catholics, that subject being I rather a secondary consideration in those debates. It was, therefore, now, for the first time in the Session, I that a motion was offered to the House on the sim ple grounds of the Catholic Qnestion. No Noble Lord, he believed, was plvdged to give a vote against this motion ; but he expected, that night, to have the concurrence of many, besides those who had always expressed themselves favourable to the Claims of the Catholics. But even if there was to be any change of opinion of this kind, it would only be what had happened before on the same subject. In )799, the Claims of the Catholics were scouted by the Irish Parliament, there being only 45 members found in it *rho would vote for even a limited relief for them.— As to their elective franchise, it was absolutely re fused to them. Their petition was rejected with scorn, and this rejection was the signal to.all Corpo rations, great and small, to address the Executive Government, declaring their determination to sup port the Constitution, as it then stood, and never to allow ,to the Catholics the right of elective franchise. Bet,sluring the prorogation of that very Parliament, meetings sat for the purpose of obtaining this relief from the Government; and in one of the answers which he received from a Noble Earl, then at the , bead of the Irisk Government, that Noble Loscide timed the prayer of their petition to be quit, ipad missible. That Noble Lord would net allow the pe tition to find its way to the Throne in the usual way, but fortunately for the petitioners, a Noble Viscount { presented it himself to the Executive Government by which means they obtained an unlimited fran-1 chise. There was one singular circumstance Of which he must remind the House, namely, that the city of Dublin then unanimously joined in an Address to i deprive the Catholics of their rights, they have now I been barely able to produce a majority in the Cor poration to the Petition against the Claims; he, therefore, did not see how Noble Lords could be pledged to refuse their assent to a motion, for the purpose of setting the Catholics at liberty. But if any of them had so pledged themselves, he trusted that, in the present state of our affairs, the keeping together of Ireland, and the rest of the Empire, would be an object far paramount to any pledges they could have given. He conjured them to throw aside the infuriated religious prejudices, which were not the children pf their understandings, but the off-1 Spring of their worst passions. He begged to call the *tuition of the House to the way in which the penal laws had found their passage into Parliament against the Catholics in Ireland. This was always through the measures of the Government, for every case came directly or indirectly from the Ministers. The last of these measures in 1793 moved directly from the bla tali, then at the head of the Administration e( that country. With deep regret he found that there were still no warm feelings in the breasts of Ministers in favour of this measure so devoutedly to be wished. It was with real rorrow that he found it was not brought forward from the Prince Regent by direct message. He regretted, that instead of its being so moved, it had fallen to his lot to bring for ward the question. There were reasons known to the Members of that House which had for several' years prevented its being pressed, out of respect and deference for the feelings of a certain illustrious per sonage. It was not regular to allude to the person now zepresenting the executive government, nor was it right to say, what might be the opinions of that illus trious personage. But if one could argue of the opi nions of the Regent from those of the Prince of Wales, well known and widely acknowledged, and there having arisen no intermediate circumstance to change those sentiments, the great objection— Lord KENYON spoke to order. He believed it was' not Parliamentary to state the opinions of the person representing the Executive Government. Lord DONOUGHMORE thought it rather strange that the Noble Lord should interrupt him without saying one word to spew that he had been out otorcler. He could consider it merely as an im tenfattempt to put himself forward and to stop his Lord D.'s) mouth. But no such interruptions could Lord hurt the cause which be advocated. However, he wished the Noble Lord had allowed him to proceed Without that, interruption which lie could not but cots-' , alder as an unreasonable and improper one. Lord KENYON was sorry the Noble Earl had so misunderstood him. It 'was not his intention to in terrupt him unfairly ; but ha believed that it was al ways considered as unparliamentary to allude to the Executive Governmeut in that House. Lord DONOUGHMORE resumed. He said: he was lamenting, that instead of this measure coming from the Speech from the 'Throne, it . had fallen' to his lot to bring it forward. This was not a discus sion on his part, but an endeavour to provoke it in the way in which it could only be done with propsiel namely. in a Committee of the whole House. was firmly of opinion that this question should:be. settled by the Government with which it had begun, and that it should ?reseed on it as a gratuitous MCIPO sure. But the,clatms of the Catholics, there being now no barrier from the religious scruples of an illus trious person, were still opposed by the conscientious feelings, or political juggles, of the Ministers. There, certainly seemed to have been: great sacrifices made to the characters and integrity of the present-Mini sters ; but could it be possible that:fanner promises so tit Catholics were to be milked to them also 1 Always arguing the question- on the strong= of constitutional right, when he formerly a their Lordships, it would be unnecessary foe hint-now atuTat those arguments. The ground which he d now take would be agSinsr the demise of englusion, whether of a general or particular mom f having done so, he should call on &sir Lordships. scf do it away ; indeed he should. go quite far estoughio stating that suds a system at exclusion as related to ibe Catholics did exist, and it would be for their Lordships to :hew why it should exist all longer.— He would take his stand on the Act of 17093. fie produced that act as a proof, not only that the Ca tholics were trust-worthy, but as proof that the Le gislature bad then the Meg assuranceof the fidelity • age _ . Iql 1131 do it. But there was another thing of which he had which she might acquire. Such was the indisputably to complain—it did not come from any of his Ma. sound policy of the great antagonist with whom the jesty's Ministers; he must not mention the throne, it country was at present engaged, and it was wise to did not come from thence ; but it might come from take lessons from an enemy, and adopt a course which behind the throne. This was, a suggestion thrown alone could render us able to contend with him. If out by way of intimidation, to send a regiment the Memorialists in their Petitions had not been so or two of his Majesty's Guards to Ireland, with full, explicit, and satisfactory on the subject of the an Illustrious Person at their head, to answer the Pope's supremacy, he should, undoubtedly, have Catholic Petitions. Such ja measure as this, he thought it necessary to say something on that head ; was persuaded, would have the effect of doing any but they had obviated all fair objection, and he need thing tether than conciliating the Irish • and, as far only add, that the doctrine had long ago and fre as he could, he would, as an individua l of quently, been renounced by the Popes themselves in Parliament, reprobate such a proposition. The Noble their negotiations with the Sovereigns of Europe, as Lord then adverted to the disappointed hopes of the well as by the Deutee of the Council of Cunsusuce. Catholics, in finding that the first act of unlimited But be might limit his observations to our own his- ; power exercised by the Regent was retaining those tory. The greatest opposition ever made to the in..! men as his Ministers who had endeavoured to inter- ordinate power and temporal usurpation of the Pope,' ceps in their way to the Throne the petitions of four was offered by the Catholic Sovereigns of that coun- ! millions of his Majesty's suffering subjects. (Hear, try. Happily insulated as we were, our institutions, hear.) This had been called a new sera : it might be religious and civil, were nourished and preserved in so ; but most inauspicious had been the circumstances a state of purity of which no other State could boast, attending it. The Ministers had drawn a narrow and they at all times clearly evinced that the King circle round the Throne, from which all but them- enjoyed the supreme civil power and government of selves and their connections were excluded. Under the State, while the spiritual functions were, without these circumstances, they must cling to the energies danger, committed to the Spiritual Head:. That an, by which the ancestors of those he was now address. primacy of the Civil government was Manifest 400 ing had so often served their country. Parliament years before the time of Henry VIII. and was ac must speak their grievances aloud till their voices knowledged and confirmed by Catholie Judges, and should again reach the ear of Majesty. The Noble by the a dmissions of the Conn Law. It was proved Lord then adverted to our external situation, and and acted on by William the Conqueror. In the asked if this was a time to require pledges from Bri- reign of King John it had a singular and most happy ; tisli subjects, or to sport with the feelings of the Ca- confirmation in the Act of Archbishop Langton, I, .tholics, when the union of all hearts and hands was who, when the meanness and pusilanimity of the I required to enable us to meet the efforts of our i King had stooped to receive from the hands of the powerful enemy. Sure he was that the alarming and Papal Legate his title to the Crown, generously, , portentous crisis was arrived at which it was become I manfully, and patriotically disclaimed at the head, ! necessary for the Parliament to exert its high con- and in behalf of the English Ecclesiastics, the right treuling powers for the preservation, nay, the viva- ! of the Pope, or of any foreign authority, to dispose don of the empire, to do away the Catholic disabi- j of, or interfere with, the civil Government of the lities, and to enforce the right of petitioning the ! realm. The same had been proved in the reign of Throne. The Noble Lord concluded by moving for Henry VIII. ar.d even by Queen Mary, who, while a. A Committee of the whole House, to take into she annulled, at the Pope's suggestion, the Act of consideration the laws respecting the disabilities,lher father, did so with a saving proviso for her own civil and religious, of the Catholics, and that the va- I authority. The same was established by Elizabeth ; rious petitions presented to the House in favour of the land so fully and clearly were the land-marks between Catholic Claims should be rtferred to the said Com- the civil and spiritual functions planted and set up, mittee." I that any Pope in later times, who should attempt to The DUKE of SUSSEX rose. In contemplating remove them, would split on the rock of his prepos a subject, of the nature of that before the House, it terous ambition. Against the artifices of designing must be obvious, that the first duty of a subject was, and intriguing Popes, and of not keeping faith with respectfully to submit to the laws as they were then heretics, the virtue and validity of the oath of elle established. But that duty did not prevent the free, l giancehad,even it, the Council of Constance, been suf full, and open discussion of the merits and tendency ficeatly established, where wilful perjury was declared of the laws, whenever tbey should be found to depart and recorded a mortal :in. A glance at histery too essentially flum the original object and intention of I would spew, how the Empress Maria Theresa pre the Legislature which framed them. Whenever the sere ed her faith with her Protestant subjects, when subject found himself aggrieved, it was a salutary • every temptation to violate it was held forth to her. and acknowledged principle of the Constitution, that His Royal Highness feelingly deplored the necessity lr_eifte gadded to submit the statement of hit grie-; which the Catholics of Ireland had long lain under, cane to that quarter where he should naturally look ! of reeking in a foreign country, that education which (or rodeo's. That . wes one of the noblest and most I would not be afforded to them at home. To deprive i C onst it ut i on , d one that, any man of the fair means of gaining a livelihood, et: si perivotti g cl es he o ver f the beabandoned or denied.— waspipeble injustice, however sophistry might try 'Remonsteencee and repreeestalions of that nature, to gM the pill or sweeten the drapght. Exclusions respectfully drawseup, it was the duty of the Legis- I were unnatural, and contrary Oaths spirit of the i lenste to attend to, and it was likewise their duty Constitution, and the Catholics were entitled to all its afford a remedy, where such could, with wisdom the privileges and indulgence which were extended *id propriety, be yielded. With those impressions to any other class of dissenters from the' Church estab lin hit mind, he thought it would well become their lishment. As to thee argunsent which he had heard in Lordship: to rake the Petitions into their most seri- reference to the Family of Stuart, be considered that oats cots - Wen:aim The subject was grave, pressing, a mere dead letter. He pitied the mitfortuneethey had and roomentoue end inch as the nation ought to am endured, but the dangei from their former pretensions their Lordships were not disposed to treat with se- was utterly removed or annihilated. There was no en : gleet or levity. All impassioned feelings should be croadment to be dreaded while the Constitution dismissed from their minds, and they ought to come I was maintained. He could see no objection to the to the discussion with tempers as calm, chastened, prayer of the Petitheits, and thought that the religious and philosophic as that of Plato or of Socrates.— subjects of those realms should be as sisters of one Bigotry should be *dilly exelnded, expediency ne family. Nor would theta,- en-inquiry; fie found'so "Lent;m4ilgrht t we of the Catholic subjects to the Protestant• State. That farther dwelt on than wee compatible with fait- material a difference Isetweeo ther Act was but the beginning of the perfect Emancipa. stress aced justice, and thus, under the guidance of the Romiih Chu r ch and o ur ow e, tion of the Catholics, which was in contemplation at truth, wisdom, and liberolity, he should not fear to be apprebendeJ. In the ceremony of visitin g t h; that time. He would take for the cornerstone of -bolt ohe vessel of the State, however tossed and sick, the doctrine of absoluti on was copied f rom die his argument the opinion of a Noble Marquis .(4 1 41- ogltated at present, might be brought soon into a Romish form, and the dignities and gradatio n s i t lesley) delivered on a former night, that eyeryorial t o serene and safe a ncho rage . He had hea r d much o u r Hie r a rc hy were fashioned from t h e same orio,o 's ion iots of any part of his Majesty's subjects from the unmeaning talk about a New lbw, and abuts- Had we not for a long time been enga ge d in one o n o, enjoyment of .any privileges which other - classes of dance of conjectures, imaginations, and inuendoes, to support the Pope against the p ower which attacked subjects enjoyed, was an evil, and tended to weaken resulting from the idle gossip of tea-tables him ? And were we not still in friendly k asue and the power of the State. The Act of 1705 seas wig! —From such a copious and fertile source of intelli- Alliance with Catholic Powers, and Catholic C ote. !dent to prove that the Parliament of Ireland; without gene., it was no wonder that frightful tales and ap- mutinies. There, then, our conduct had given t o o I anyother phi dges being given than.those required -prehension of murders and enormities, and estrevo- lie to our prejudicao He lid heard it said, d ie p , e. by that Act; would have, In t, removed all the .gances of Allow s should p roce ed, a n d that Prows- sent was nut the fit time for grant i ng w h at was asked. Idisabilities. One argument been adduced by 'cants should be made to cry out against the murder- No time wis unsuitable to the concession id ri ph s so tr o er n c . eir i J i-** th c e au'' fi l t dt. . the opposers.of this measure, namely,o Would you out Papists. But the present zra, the commence- and it could never be yiel i dol me to m : admit the Catholics to political power ?" In answer ment ofthe 19th century, h e hoped would be marked, ea s ily conceive a disposition at times iu peot o e to he to that, he would reply, they already possessed that hailed,anddistinguished, by toleration and true even- turbulent, but he could by lo power ; they composed the majority of those who gelieal doaity. He would advise their Lordships to , uess of trying to quell turbulence by aggravati ng 'returned the Irish -Representatives. The same an- pause and examine the pages of history, and to mark the cath m eof it. To the generous, ow i i , an d ' c l ower would apply to the argument against admitting and distinguish between the exertions of the civil :end amenable temper of the Irish peopk his o, o o Hi g h. them into the State. By admitting them into offices, spiritual functions. They would there firid o thathow- i lless paid a most warm and liberal complim ent . g ot they were 'already admitted into the State. But soever perverted by ambition and misdirected power, I the civil and religious dos abilities under which they lthete was another and a stronger ground on which those functions had been blended ana confounded, i laboured could 'not fail to gall them. The pro m o. he would rely—that of right. He wanted to have they .yet were naturally, essentially, , and necessarily ces tinder which those disabilities subsioed sore no but-two sorts of people—the loyal and disloyal.— distinct . ; and in all cases 4 civil complaint, it was longer cherished in the capital of th e P. i p a l inflamer. Tbis could only be done by setting this question at not to-the spiritual constitution, but to .the foresight When he WAS in Rome he saw two pictures of their rest. He would not, however, accept, as a boon and policrof man alone, that an appeal for redress Majesties, which Were the objects there of public to the Catholics, that which they could demand as should be made. Instead of 'upholding . stale and ex- esteem and veneration. For his Nrt h e h a d very a right. He had not only to complain tit.; this right ploded , prejudices at the present date, i t would be- ' gravely and attentively considered the subj ect , an d being withheld from the Catholics, but ..lie had to ; come the Parliament of shot earl' latened country to the object of the r ,etitions before thei r Lordships... complain of the manner in which it had been with- I convince Europe and the sebrld blittt we 'are yet .xis- They had come upon his meditation on a recent oc. held by his Majesty's Ministers. 'l'lre Noble Lord ; tong a free nation, which, disetaibing the dark,diunal, cation, when a severe and alarming indimositioa had then adverted to what had passed in ill other House and .pestiferous clouds of prejudice end persecution, led him to conteMpl ite his probable death with calm o 'of Parliament on the subject of the Catjuslies.--o i could perceive, acknowledge, and worship the bole- Christian resignation. At that awf u l moment , h a hothat-plites, where tEe People had so much reason ficent GOD of all Christians, wilt) came into the world had considered what was the most acceptable sovie t to complain of the waste and ext r a vaga n t expendi. to save, and not to molest or destkey, his worship- he coul I render to Con, and the sit o g est i on ar i s i ng tore of the public money, on the proposal for adding , pers. Whatever were the difficulties of the times, to his conscience to follow - the dictates of c h ar i ty , an additional sum of .le4ooo to 88090, the sum gran. I whatever the alarm excited by bad minds, or admit- meekness, and indulgence, set forth his example is Ited for the support of the College of Maynooth, the ted by weak ones, he trusted that theft was no want i the practice of our bkssed lteedemer. He would re ,. place appointed for the education of the whole body of the amor patrie in the coitatto ; but that if such an peat, that With the bulwarks which the Co o ti to o in of the Catholic Clergy ; it was refused ; and one of emergency should occur, there would be many a had provided, there was no danger in accedingtothe his Majesty's Ministers expressed his regret, that the Curtius ready to leap the gulf. He recollected well' Catholic claims, and wretched inJeed most b e the College of Maynooth had ever existed. At the same the principles which introduced and placed o the , foundation of that church which could be sh a l es b y dine that this £4OOO was refused to the Catholics, throne of that kingdom the family to which he had ,an act to tolerance and equity. The yit;Ji ng tim e ,01,1,0U0 was voted to the Protestant Charter Schools the honour to belong, and he would state the mo- claims to the Catholics would bind the two c o w r i es in Ireland. Persons complained of the ignorance of tives w;t.ch directed the vete he meant to give that !in bonds of affection and mutual confidence, w oo the Catholics of Ireland, whilst it was the Govern- night— valid, firm, and e ffi cacious than any acts of Pitia. . spent, and the measures of Government, which kept o Homo sum, nil human' ame aliennm Auto." ment, and contribute more essentially than wader them so. Another Gentleman, in the same place, The wisdom of Governments, he thought, was shewn ! measure to the permanent security of the 41111fiet.— had likened. them to the beggar, in Gil Bias, who, the by their tolerating all religions. No inconvenience , His Royal Highness concluded with observing, that mote there was given, the more he required. But to the State, but rather advantage, would arise from !he could not sit doon or free his conscience trace that Gentleman should have reflected, that if they their varety. They would tend to balance the ! giving his hearty vote for the motion of the Noble l were beggars, it was we who had made them so, by strength of the community, while each man indulged , Earl. depriving them of all their rights. He called on the the dictates of his conscience, without being amenable ! Lord REDESDALE said, the muse of the Re. House to do away entitely, at a tame when it might to any other being but Goo alone—( Near.) By such , formation of our Church was not the maintaining of appear like an act of liberality on their part, all the wise and wholesome indulgence alone could any great any religious tenet, but the unit potion of temporal present objectionable code, and not delay doing so State maintain tranquillity, or retain in peace and power on the part of spiritual persons. Thitcoote l y till the necessities of the times might (Air - them to accord the conquests she might make, or the territory , was a Protestant country, and we had in it a Pro. tenant establishment, the object of whichwas to pre. serve the tranquillity of the country. In this-ques. titan he considered only the tranquillity of the Gosem. ment, of which the Protestant Church formed a put James the Second, whatever his motives were, ind as. deavour to establish the Catholic Religion. He &1 break the law, for the purpose IA 4lestroviag die security provided for our Constitution by the Peo testant establishment. This was a sewrity which he would never suffer to be endangered. Hit Lord. ship then went over the history of the accession cf William and Mary, and the _Declaration of liglna 1 which set forth, that the Roman Catholic was inconsistent' wish rho political liberties of the pin pie. He would ask, on what grounds could thew wise provisions a our ancestors be called wpm re. strictions on the liberty of conscince ? What sne the object of the gos OftatiOn Oath ? Was it net 14 1 bind the Sovereign down to a solemn declaratioindug he would never do an act tending to overtire thy s♦ curites established for the support of the Proton* system ? That part of the oath must have been wholly unnecessary, were it not conceived that this severity ought to have been promised ley the Sovettig..., in earning to the Throne. The question then was, AP; the ral those securities, thus established by oar ar cestors, were to be now overthrown ? In abe state like ours, if the Catholics were to be adiuitul into political power, we should then have a great 10 of people exercising the power of Government, eta would be hostile to our religious establishment: k was impossible in the nature of things they could le otherwise. Men must be men—they could not r t rid of the prejudices which a particular religion pro duced. In his early life he thought that the result. tions on the Catholics, which had noconnesion with political power, ought to be done away ; and be acted upon that impression, and did °f►-r a plan for doing away their religious disabilities. Therecoula be no objection to the Roman Catholic religion, pro vided the Roman Catholics did not disturb the peace of our establishment. The language now used 1 1 the Catholics in the very ; etiti6ns tb.it woo on'the table wasthe language of intimidation—it was nothing else." And there were persons who were IS this question with no other view than the sewation Ireland from Great Britain. Now, would it be said. that the grant ng the concessions asked for weld de. feat all tho e views ! N.' ;it nould only iacroase the power -of elate persons who entertained inch pricc" . To grant tie concessions, would be like the'eoodbet of our arcstors, who used to buy 4 tlie Danish in va,!ers wi.:i a hope of keeping the coun:ry sewn against their ravages. Did not these roPle t efi " . to tiav2 the slightest negative put on th e s PP iat. ment of their hierarchy ? • Was it ratieual, the% 1 0 iatte rke the give any power to persons who refused to m to slightest concession on their part, as far a s thiir Chur.h ? If the object of the present w°6°ll was contibatian, that object could not be a _ unless all was granted, without any qualifieno°' whatever.—Here his Lordship read a set of tons passel by the Cathol cs of the Onnti GAI* way, to shew that they wanted all or nothing.-- The argument, the on the ground of ,oa.il`atror+ was entirely done away. It was impenoble 1 0 mP' pose, that the priests of this religion, wi h they posseood over the minds of the ieople. rungri influence the Goyernritent of the country ; sadr anLorilthsZeipsthmintgisst nthowe-naesklepdecftorzesoaagiventoo_leProlt downfall of the Protestant estabbsinnes 4 7 10 , erection of a Roman Catholic establishing*. stead.—f Cris: of No, Nb 1) —This was the ondlo i n: the late Lord Clare, who asserted. that eZ; cession to the Catholiis would only lead to still more inadmissible. After serr.e diteensierr, whether Lord Weal° , a L N