Star. — London, England, 1813-05-12 00:00:00

The Hon. Baronet not only wished the appointment of a Religious Committee of the House, but a Com mittee of Diplomacy, who should examine the cor respondence of Catholic Priests with Foreign Mates, and it was impossible for the House to foresee where their labours would end. He wished to treat the mo- tion with that respect which he entertained for the Ron. Baronet—a respect which difference of opinions could never remove : but at the same time he con- calved the motion unsupported by facts. It was not true that the Catholic Committee in Dublin had come to the Resolutions inserted in some of the Newspa. pets alluded to by the Hon. Baronet, therefore any argument founded on that report must fall to the ground. The only Resolution they entered into was that of sending Delegates to London. Indeed if the House was to pass no Act in favour of the Catholics so long as a newspaper would oppose it, or a Priest refuse to concede the Veto, then, indeed, the period of Catholic Emancipation must be distant. The Right Hon. Gentleman then enumerated the heads of the Ca- tholic Bill, which, he contended, would operate as an act of substantial relief for the benefit of the Catholics, without impairing the ascendancy of the Established Church. The oath proposed was an abjuration of every feeling or opinion that could interfere with the safety of the Protestant Church. It went farther than any former prescribed oath on the subject. It contained the ab iuration of the dispensing power of the Pope, of his infallibility, and of the principle of the not keeping faith with others of a different opinion. It contained the abjuration of every thing inconsistent with the Pro testant succession, it contained the provision, that the Catholics were not to attempt to overthrow or dis turb the Protestant Establishment; that they were to have no communication with the See of Rome, that could interfere with the Protestant Church, or that was inconsistent with its permanency and safety ; and that they should acknowledge no Ecclesiastical Power operating politically. The object of the Bill was not to diminish, but to aid to the security of the Protestant Establishment. It was with this view, and on this principle, that the Oath had been made so long. The former oath was more generalized, and extended both to the Clergy and Laity. Here the Committee had attempted to provide a security for the present Establishment, and, if the House were satisfied with this security so provided for, a Commis sion under the Crown would be farther appointed, to have a control over the appointment of Bishops, and to withhold their consent from any such appointment, when the person nominated was not known to be loyal and well disposed to the existing Government and arrangements now existing in Church and State. The Bill so framed, he conceived, provided for cur complete domestic security, and it remained for the House to make any alterations upon it that might ap pear to them necessary for this object. The Bill as it now stood, had beer. as nearly framed as possible to provide for Catholic Emancipation, while it pro vided also for the security of the Protestant Eccle siastical Establishment. It was a bar, at the same time, against Catholic influence, and the interference of any foreign power in our domestic arrangements and policy. He concluded by moving the other or ders of the day. Mr. RYDER, on the Question being put from the Chair, said, he did not think the Right Hon. Gen tleman was justified in saying that the Catholic Board would be satisfied with the Bill proposed. It they gave credit to the reports received, the contrary would appear to be the case. The Catholics were not satisfied with the provisions of this Bill, nor was the Bill, in his opinion, calculated to secure the in terests of the Protesiant Establishment. Should the Bill be passed into a law, the Catholics would be entitled to hold offices of State, to become Members of Parliament, and even to act as Ministers of the Crown ( loud cries ef Hear, hear, from the Opposition) ; and all this was to be done without any security for the safety of Church and State. It was true that an oath was provided by the Bill, but what WAS this oath more than that of ninety-one/or England, and of ninety-three for Ireland already existing. As the Bill, however, was yet to come before the House, he should not trouble them at present with entering into its details. The Hon. Baronet, he thought, had sufficiently proved the necessity of a Committee to inquire into the several points at issue. Though he could not go along with the Hon. Baronet in all his views of the subject, yet the arguments he had ad vanced were sufficient with him to make him vote for the Committee, and ought, in his opinion, to be an inducement with the House to support the motion, as the Hon. Mover was welt known to be a friend to the Catholic Claims. Had the motion come from any other quarter, it might have been thought that Iklinisters wished to throw obstacles in the way, and that the motion was made in hostility to the Catho lics ; but coming as it did from the Hon. Baronet, who had always been forward to second the Catholic i Claims, no such suspicicn could be entertained.— ' , (Hear, hear). —The Hon. Baronet had retracted no thing of his former opinions, but only required that the House should pause before doing away the laws ' that had existed for one hundred and fifty years, for 1 the security and safety of the State. Were they at lonce to depart from these laws without inquiring into their necessity, or the probable results of their repeal? Were they prepared to say that there was no necessity i for inquiring into the expediency of these laws, or i that these laws might not be affected by the result of an inquiry ? It appeared from the speech of the Honourable Baronet, that out of half a million of 1 Catholics in England, not more than five thousand had taken the already existing oaths.—(Hear, hear). —Could this be construed into a proof of their attach ment for the existing establishment, or justify the ex pediency of other oaths ? The influence of the Ro man see was also another question of great impor. Lance, particularly when they considered that on the Continent, even in Catholic as well as Protestant States, a principle had been always observed of guar ; ding against the influence of the Church of Rome. If such was the case, even in Catholic countries, ought we not in this country particularly to ascertain the 're gulations of other States on this subject, so essential to domestic policy and national independence ? The Right Hon. Gentleman had said, that the question , . bad been often discussed, but had any'such inquiry been ever made ? What was the usual course of pro.. seeding on other subjects ? Was it not to refer the necessary inquiries to a Committee, and to have so many Resolutiorts framed accordingly, and reported to the House. Why should not a similar proceeding in this instance ? 'The tubjeet was of that vital im portance, and at the same time attended with such difficulty, that it ought to be sifted to the bottom be. fore any Member was called on to give his vote either on one side or the other. 'Such an inquiry took place on the Slave Trade, - and had recently taken place with respect to the renewal of the East India Com pany's Charter. This course of proceeding had also been formerly pressed by the Right Honourable Gentleman himself. (Hear, Bear, from the Opposition.) —lt might be said, perhaps, that a Committee had been already appointed. (Hear, hear.) This he would admit, but that it was not a Committee for in formation, but merely to draw up the Bill. The House had been deprived of every fair opportunity of information, brute way in which the Bill bad been brought forward. The Right Hon. Gentle -man had promised before the recess to have the Bill printed, and read a second time, that it might be cir culated before the holidays, but instead of this it was not brought in till within these few days, and the House had no opportunity of perusing it. [Mr. Grattan appeared to dissent across the table.] Whose fault was it that the Bill was not sooner brought in ? The Right Hon. Gentleman had taken two months in preparing his Bill, and it had not been in their possession more than a week. The House ought to have had more time for the examination of so impor. tint a subject. Had the Right Hon. Gentleman meant to deprive the House of the exercise of their understanding, he could not have taken a more effec tual way than the course he had pursued. He ap proved of the Committee proposed, because it would promote delay, and that he considered, on such a sub ject, to be an object of great importance. The House would afterwards come better prepared to the deci sion. No subject, he contended, required greater de liberation, involving as it did the prejudices, the pas. sions, and fears of the various parties concerned. Mr. GRATTAN, in explanation, said, that he had expressed it to be his intention to bring in the Bill, if possible, before the recess, and to have it printed. This had been his wish, but at the same time he had stated that he would not pledge himself to do so, as he was aware of the difficulties that might attend the preparation of the Bill. He acquitted himself of all intentional or unnecessary delay. Mr. CANNING requested that the Speaker would read the original motion ; and that the Clerk would read the journal of the proceedings of the House of Commons on the 24th of April, 1812, when a mo tion for appointing a Committee, similar to that pro posed by Sir J. C. Hippisley, was negatived. This having been done, Mr. CANNING expressed his astonishment that, after the Resolution which had been just read by the Clerk had, been negatived last sear by a majority, of which his Hon. Friend who had just spoken wasone, that his Hon. Friend should come forward with an accusation of inconsistency against the supporters of a Resolution beginning in words identically the same. He did not wonder at the versatility of the conduct of his Hon. Friend, proceeding not from any deficiency of character, but from the helplessness of his cause ; but he did not much wonder that being compelled by reasons of expedience, arising out of that helplessness, to adopt a course which there could be no doubt was abhorrent from his nature, his Hon. Friend should be so imprudent as to couple with a declaration of his intention to pursue that coarse, an accusation of inconsistency against those who really had pursued the most steady and unvarying line of conduct. For his own part, he (Mr.'Canning) had been troubled with a good many doubts that evening. When the Hon. Baronet made his motion, he doubt ed his being able to find a seconder in the House.— When, after a long pause, he saw that seconder in the person of his Hon. Friend, he then doubted whe ther he had heard the terms of the motion correctly, and it was on that account that he had troubled the Speaker to read it again to the House. His Hon. Friend attempted to impute to those, who under the orders of the House, had prepared a measure then fully under the consideration of the House, incon sistency, when the fact was, that they had followed the plain course sanctioned by two discussions ter minated by no equivocal majorities, and had dis charged the very duty which the House had im posed on them. In making this accusation, there fore, his Honourable Friend arraigned not those to whom the sacred and difficult trust of preparing the Bill was confided, but he arraigned the House itself ; he called on the House to retrace its steps ; he called with an ambiguous voice, but with a pur pose that it was impossible not to understand.- 1.11 knew, that on many occasions there was one lan guage held on one side of those doors, and another language on the other. But he appealed to every man of good sense and experience who heard him, if it was practicable so to impose on the credulity of the most drivelling idiot that could be selected, as to in duce him to doubt that the motion (however simple and innocent the mover) was for the express purpose of obstructing the progress of the Bill that had been brought in, and of detesting the recorded intentions of Parliament ? He would do the Hon. Baronet the justice to believe, that he did not see it in that light. Were the abilities, information, and judgment of the Hon. Baronet less upon record, he (Mr. Canning) would be reluctant to pay him such a compliment ; for to say any thing of the goodness of the Hon. Ba ronet's intentions, would be to say it at the expence of the Hon. Baronet's character for understanding, were it not that the Hon. Baronet had already vindi cated himself in that respect by his numerous and able publications. But he would beg leave to hint to the Hon. Baronet the probability that those who, at length taking an active part in the proceeding, had cheered him with their applause, would indemnify themselves as soon as they got out of the House, for the breath which they had spent in acclamations within it.— The laughter which they had so long constrained would then burst out. The supporters of the Bill were the real friends of the Hon. Baronet, and not those who flattered him while they triumphed in that which to him must be a serious diminution of intellectual character. The Hon. Baronet had gravely told the House, that he thought the production of all the in formation which his motion was calculated to pro duce necessary before they could come to a decision, not on the principle, for that had already been de cided, but before they could enter on that particular stage of the Bill in which the principle could be dis cussed with advantage. For eight years, it seemed, had the Honourable Baronet cherished this opinion. At length it became matured. It was a tie fruit, and did credit to the soil by which it had been nou rished. The Honourable Baronet's motion implied the necessity of making circuit of the world—of ran ' sacking every quarter of the globe—of deriving in formation from foreign Powers, by what process it was difficult to divine. But when the Hon. Baronet made this motion he could scarcely be prepared for the commentary of his Hon. Friend, upon his text. His Honourable Friend had called on the House, not to delay the progress of the Bill, but to pause !—to pause until reports should be received from Africa —to pause until intelligence should be obtained -from America—to pause until the result should be ascertained of a commission to Canada—to pause until some dextrous Ambassador (it was to be hoped the Honourable Baronet himself) should in veigle the Archbishop of Mohilow, with his patent in his hand, to explain the nature of his dependence on the See of Rome—to pause until an interminable labour should be completed—to pause until the Hon. Bart. should empty on the Table of the Committee the full fraught stores of his mind, and the bursting contents of the box before him ! But it was not ' alone all the learned lore which the Hon. Baronet all catholic Countries in Europe, and that this stitution was to be extended to Ireland. And w as this intelligence now for the first time communicated to so vigilant a Government, he meant of cou-se no particular Government, by an individual Member ' that House And was this the State that it was !.) necessary to maintain for the security of the Prates. tant Church, and which allowed of the establishment of the Order of Jesuits abolished in evciy Popish country in Europe without injury or detection This was really the only novelty in any shape in the argument of his Right Hon. Friend or of the Hon. Bart. in the whole of his well-known speech, whizit he now brought forward in order to interrupt the course which the House was disposed to pursue, be. cause he had in vain addressed it to them with a vevr to induce them to adopt the course he wished to r:•. commend. Some stress too had been laid upon tlrs circumstance, that only a certain number of the Ca tholics had taken the oath which had been enacted twenty-three years ago. One would suppose filial this statement that the act was peremptory in imp its. ing the oath. If the Hon. Baronet had I.)oked at the title of the act he would have found that it had been had treasured up in his mind that was to be laid he r passed to relieve his Majesty's Catholic subjects from fore the Committee, but all the numerous works on certain disabilities or conditions, one of which cnndi. theological controversy in existence that were to be tions the oath was. What would the House think consulted before a decision, such as the motion of the of such an argument ? What would they think, Hon. Baronet contemplated, could be come to. He if any Member were to write to his friend in the was sure the Hon. Baronet was perfectly sincere in country to learn how many Protestants in a cr. his wish to bring the subject fully before the House; tarn district had taken the oath of allegiance, if , yet h. observed, in the wording of his motion, a re- upon its being found that only three or any small mon• serve which pointed to the production of various other ber had taken the oath, it should be proposed to nlace papers besides those which he particularly called for. that district under military superintendence? The He was not so deeply read upon these subjects as the case was the same with respect to the Catholics. Hon. Baronet; but this reserve in his motion seemed touching an oath which was not an infl , ction but to be founded on the precedent of an author whom qualification. If, as he hoped would be the c.oe, this the Hon. Baronet bad quoted in his book. That Bill should pass, would it be endured that it should author was Malruinus, who having written a work, next year be proposed to disqualify the Catholics, in De omnibus rebus, produced afterwards a postscript to the event of their neglect of taking the oath it pre. it, De quibutdam aliis.—(Loud laughter).—The Hon. scribes ?—a neglect likely enough to occur in conse- Baronet then proposed that all this course of Theo- quence of the improbability of the occurrence of a logy, as well as the contents of his box should be general election, though perhaps not so likely under thrown on the Table, only with a view to delude the the present circumstances, that would operate to ex. House (he used the term delude in no offensive sense) cite the Catholics to qualify at once for a franchise so that there would be all the documents necessary to much the object of their just ambition. The oath was be produced, if his motion should be granted.— not compulsory in the former Act, but this Bill made For to take that motion in its most restricted state, it imperative in the Clergy, which was not the case did it not call for information respecting the nomina- before, to take it. The argument from the oath not tion, collation and institution of the Catholic Clergy having been taken was inaptly and unfaithfully in all Roman Catholic as well as other countries in brought forward ; and he believed it would be found Europe ? The Honourable Baronet might smile when that in Ireland the whole of the Catholics had taken it. he assured the House that this would require at least He would have no man amuse himself with the idea, one hundred folio volumes to be laid before the Com- that the present measure was of a temeorary and pas mittee—a mass of information which would require sing nature; tor if he now lost the opportunity—now the most serious consideration, not a little heightened at a moment when thcy stood on the pinnacle of the by the able comments of the Learned Chairman, as affections and feelings of their Roman Catholic court he was sure the Honourable Baronet would be, ad- trymen—of doing justice to them—and of adding to dressed to a listening Committee or rather to a de. the security of the empire—it might never return.—. spairins quorum. Since the Honourable Baronet Let him not believe that if he trod one step backwards, had given notice of his motion, he had endeavoured that the ground might easily be recovered. As there to inform himself of the books that it would be neces - was a tide in the affairs of man, so was there a tide in nary to consult ; and though lie could not pretend to their opinions and feelings, and he would caution them give a perfect list of them, he should submit to the to beware how they let the moment pass that migla House a scantling of them. First, they should have be used to allay the heats and animosities which tended eleven volumes, folio, of Erasmus de doctrina Ecclesia, to enervate the empire. If they were to tread but one an Author who was designated Dr. ildmirabilit. Then step backwards, who could tell what might hereafter they should have the works of St. Augustin, which , impede them in their endeavours to recover it — who consisted also of 11 folio volumes. Next they should I could tell what clouds might then obstruct the cheer have the productions of a famous author whose writ. ing prospects that now opened to their view; wholcmor ings were perfectly familiar to the Honourable Ba. what might then prevent the union of those handswhaa rune, Thomas Aquinas, called also Doctor Evangeli- were now stretched out, nearly touching each other? Cur, of whom from the style and spirit of his works it As to the election of Bishops, it was arranged that had been said, " animew aussulini ernirane in aquinam." five Noblemen should adduce testimony of their —This learned author had produced eighteen vo- loyalty. If the Catholic Clergy were to have solar'', lumes. Then they should come to his great rival, that would be a fit object tor a new Bill. But lie had Dem. Scotus, who had contended with Thomas almost forgotten a very interesting point of the Hon. tooth and nail, and who had also his surname, having Baronet's. Some of the Bishops, it seemed, were not been styled Doctor Subtilis. He wrote twelve folio canonically elected ; and therefore new difficulties volumes on his controversy with Aquinas. When arose in the event of the appointment of a concurrent they had all these works, they should, in the words of establishment. To settle this point, the proposed the Hon. Baronet, but have arrived at the threshold Committee would have to read a few more bouks in of the information desired : they should gain nothing addition to those he had already mentioned ; and till they came to consult the works of the great Bel- amongst the rest s‘ Magnum Bulerian," 8 vols. folio, larmine, a writer who had published a work o del and " Cratinus," &c. 9 vols. folio. Such being the auctoritate Pont corium in secularibur," being the very' difficulties, he would advise them to keep out of the point at present at issue between the Hon. Baronet Committee. But testimony to the loyalty of the and Dr. Milner. How could that House in a Com- . Bishops would be all that could be required— mince come to any correct decision in the matter of the testimony of five of the first lay Roman Catholic, dispute between the Hon. Baronet and Dr. Milner, if Peers. When the doors were opened to the Peers, they should not proceed to the consideration of the I it was so arranged that they should he alike in. question with the doctrines of Bellarmine perfectly ' terested with the Protestant Nobility in guarding by heart ? Let Gentlemen but reflect, what profs- the triple Constitution from harm when they should ciency they could hope to make in this study, consi - be ad mi tt ed to all the s p lendid advantages Id dering their other avocations of business; or what' Peerages. The testimony of five such men he time it would take before they could attain the same was sure would have more weight than that of the degree of information which the Hon. Baronet, partly Lord Lieutenant ; and thus had they good seat by learning and partly by inspiration, had already . rity for the loyalty of the Catholic Bishops, without acquired. Yet it was not only this learning that they troubling themselves with any Thomas diquinasly ways were to seek in a Committee, but also a knowledge of ascertaining how they were concocted. With re• of the practice of foreign nations respecting the insti- spect to the second point, he maintained that great tution of the Catholic Clergy. He was inclined to jealousy ought to be entertained of correspondence believe the Hon. Baronet to be serious in his views . with Foreign Powers. But the law required altera upon this point, but he doubted much what power tion. As it now stood it was high treason to re that House could have to compel the Primate of ce ive bulls and indul g ences from Rome, yet bulls were Austria or a Bishop of Mohilow to attend the pro- daily received from abroad without the fact being no posed Committee. He was yet to learn what autho- ticed. And yet this was the state in which the Cnams rity it possessed to enforce the attendance of another pion of the Constitution would have the laws remain, personage, more necessary than that of any other to saying that the whole was threatened by touching a such a purpose—the Pope himself.—(Hear, hear.)—' part, or at least till the Honourable Baronet returned The Honourable Baronet's motion also called for from his circuit of the world. But the security of information respecting what took place in our own the State must no longer slumber in obsolete black colonies; but there was no excuse for their being • letter; and even if the present measures were cruno ignorant, as they had only to look for it to the Act of bled into dust, he should not cease to exert himself. Parliament. He had listened to the speech of the Hon. In remarking on his third point, he said the new Baronet, not only with curiosity, but with patience, clause made it imperative on Catholics and he could discover in it but one argument— an ar- point a commission of five gument which at first view seemed to have some force ^ to approve the Bill, and if st in it. This argument was, that if the Bill before the within given time after the passii House were to pass, they might see a Lord Mayor the provisions of it were to fall going to mass with the mace and sword of state borne ' As far as his communication e: before him. But if the Hon. Bart. had only looked English Catholics, there would be into the Act of 7 - Geo. 111. an Act not touched by icence in the claims as they now the Bill under consideration, he would find it enacted dition that might be proposed there, that if airy Mayor, Magistrate, or officer atten- be in the friendly spirit of conciliar ding the same shall go to any other place of worship had time to receive so full an asst than that of the Church of England, he shall be dis- but from that quarter also he was abled from holding such employment. He had also teration would be proposed watched with equal attention and patience the speech i spirit. All that he had heard had of his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Ryder) and could i hear) —nor would those discover only one argument, and that too, which , to retard the measure in that in his mind operated in a different way from that in i considerable number without door which it was applied. His Right Hon. Friend on of their conduct. But whatevr the authority of the statement of the Hon. Bart. had should be done in the face of observed that there had been established in England obscurity, which, in the langua an institution for Jesuits who had been expelled from better to the thief than night the Catholics to ap• Catholic Noblemen such was not done passing of the Act, all to the ground. — extended among the be a cheerful acquits. stood, and any 3c1.. on their part would iliation. Ike had net. surance from IrtianJ, vas assured that no al- in a conzumAciou s ad exceeded his lwixs ose who ende ivourci t House involve .11 doors in the apriov 3l rver was to bt done day, a nd n ot i 9 rage of H o mer, v.' ;ht. He trubte4 lig