Star. — London, England, 1815-03-04 00:00:00

sos. not me high. It the pmt period. All that see med to be required, w.ss to keep Curti for a tia ;i t d i e present prices. His L or d s hi p concluded wi t h expiessiug his intention to vote against the Arn o w went. Mr. THOMPSON wished that 'every word that! had been said in that House on the subject could be b ear d abroad. The distresses amongst the agricul tural L a bourers in this country were unexampled.— &tore he had come Iron; Yorkshire, he had witnes ,ed s uch scenes as would have melted the hardest la n. In a village, where last year the people corn- Alined of the high price of corn, they now exciainted . igainst the low price, and said, we have food cheap, )u t we have no work. We would rather have high ,;ice and some nioncy, than a low price and no Imi ey at all. This distress was the effect of the re loavon in the price of Cons, and the cause was the In pAtation of foreign cdrn. If there had been no nw ortation we should have had corn at a reasonable ,ace, in proportion to , the price of all other articles., Ile manufacturing interests certainly had greater •)roicciioir than the landed interests, and this seemed: &ars to have been the policy of the Government. .111 foreign manulacturtrs were pi ohibited, and there A . As cloathing worn in this country from crown of the head to the sole of the toot, which .v.ts not of it, o wn rnsnuiacture. But the farmers fiJ no such protection es was afforded to the manti- A ,-,n , rers. Tiiey quid not export their cattle, their ,al, or even the skins of the animals they killed.— fiwA privileges of the nianufacturers ought there. to make them the last people in the world to - - , .!.!‘• any advantage in contemplation for the.' 7..:ets. He believed there was not one honest ist.ire manufacturer who did not wish the agri• of the country to be effectually supported.— ..Y..3%) In carrying on our trade we know both in imports and our exports, that many advantages o We derived from using our own ships. It might, :weever, be contended, that with many. articles we r.:: ;ht be supplied at a cheaper rate if 'foreign ships eht he e rapidest without restriction, and this 50,11.1 not be less reasonable than the opposition ;:yen to die present measure. In the year 1463 an .Act was passed, prohibiting the importation of fo reign corn till the price of it rose to 6s. Bd. the q.lartcr. This prohibition was not attended to— corn was still imported, and the consequence was, is 16J4, from a documeut of which he read an ex tract, it appeared that husbandry had fallen so greatly to decay, that in villages where lormetly there were two or three hundred agricultural labourers, only two or three herdsmen remained. To export all we could, and to import as little as we could help, was a maxim which any one would allow was appli car to the real interests of thi, country; and if it vpilied to one species of commodity, why should it cat apple to nether ? If it applied to manufactures why should it not apply to corn ? (Hear.) The &advantages arising from its not being applied to corn had been seriously felt, and he apprehended ...could 'ere lung be very generolly acknowledged.— Already did the shopkeepers in malice' towns view pith dismay the distresses of the farmer —in vain did they look for that custom to which he had heretofore been accustomed—the fanner passed his door de istted and distressed he was no longer able to pus. ci;ase those little articles of luxury and manufacture which had given spirit to trade, and that triendly in tercourse which had in former times subsisted, was luken up. Indeed he had heard it as a fact, that se s had actually been closed in consequence of t!:e absence of those persons who had been their certain customers, bpt who now transacted their business in de open streets, and then returned to their houses to the meagre fare of bread and cheese— (Hear, hear.) These were events which could not be disguised, and thich lie trusted would operate as a convinfing rea. 'n with the House for passing the Bill before them. lie would conclude what he had to say. to the House quoting a passage of an address, which in 1802 'sae presented II em Prince Terlleyrated to Bonaparte. 1, this address that Prince, with whom he had not ti,; honour of being acquainted (Laughter)--pointed cat the beneficial consequences which would result tu France from a peace with Great Britain. " Leave tilem in peace, " said Prince Talleyrand , " and their noisters wil l be distracted by popular clamour, v !rich will always be exerted and encouraged by de tioing men."—" Leave them in peace," again said " and they will never think of striking out schemes fra the increase of their population—instead of menu tAcinring for their own benefit, they will manufac erre for the use wf others." " Leave them in peace," said he, amid it was unfortunate that his words lld been so prophetic, " and their Nobility and Gentry will come to France, and in squandering ther money and great riches among us, augment our ncio:iat resources, while they enslave their own coml. 1 1 - ."—(Hear, hear.) Thie was the address of a sew. 'titl e man, who seemed to have taken a very close view of tim English character, buthe trusted the Go vernment of this country would not permit such ob. le:Nation.; to be verified by facts—(Hear, hear.) — }6 entreated the House to afford the same proteciion to tile tanner, which they did to the manufacturer, grtd thereby ensure the prosperity of both— (Hear.) •Jr lets means the population would be increased— • • stability of the country secured.--and the pro -1)4.1.'1 of I ens avement by France rendered chime. Mr. PRESTON observed, since last year the view taken of this subject had in many instances been so '4117,d, that those who then petitioned against the r";tr.stire proposed, no lot ger appeared to consider a step expedient. Next to the agriculture of the .tar, he contended the manufacturers ought to be but the tax which this measure could in ;'"I "be impose on them, was as nothing compared the wag‘ .s they received. He thought ever,' t t' , % ,t 1 calcuktioil must perceive this was one of the C 7l t it KilVmes that had ever been a d o p t ed to eclair- t;'e prices o f prov i sion an d l a b our. I n every re :l- t he. thought it promised great advantages to the t'ittutryi and therefore he felt it his duty to give it warmest support. MARRYATT had uniformly declared 13ini : 1 layout:6l e to the principle of the measure, but . 11 : 4144 sting the protecting price at 80s. He tin.. the arguments used by an Honourable to this debate to be founded OA the connec liptvreen the country banks and the price of corn. • ..,considered nothing had been shewn to justify them ' . "tag the importatiou price so high; and 4)11IY :,;~, e riecor appovi4g.that prim 414.1te s 'wend to , vote for the amendment. Mr. PrtoTHEßtig was iiiiiine , ray Measure s defended his - constitnents fresn'the edit* of in eonsistency in not bringing forward evidence in sup port of their petition. They understood the Com miuee was appointed to inquire into the trade in fo reign corn, and the duties payable thereon, and had thought the evidence they could h.tve offered in sup port of the principal allegations of their petitions would then have been irregularly offered. The pe titions which had been presented, he maintained, did. not come from persons in the Liwest situations of life, who were incapable of understanding the subject. They were signed by the higher ranks of tradesmen and rmnolfacturers all over the country. If B(vs. were named as the protecting price, it was his opi nion the avera g e p r i ce wou ld b e very li tt l e b e l ow i t . dr. NVARDELL supported the Bill s and com plained of the imputation thrown on the conduct of an Honourable Member by another, who had spoken. of the connectipn between the country banks and the price of corn. Those who knew that Hon. Gentle man, knew him incapable of acting from such base incoives as had been ascribed to him. Mr. MARRYATT said, what had fallen from him had been misconstrued. He had meant to cast no imputation on any one. He had only referred to the influence which a paper currency had on the price of corn. Mr. LOCKHART was not surprised that a great o.utcry was raised against this measure after the de scriptions Mitch had been given of it by a Chief Ma gistrate, and by several Members of that House.— The prices of wheat and bread, he observed, did not always tally. In the country, at some fifty or sixty miles distance, the price of bread was generally two pence under the London price, and it was a common thing for it to be sent to town by the coach, and sold at a profit then. The public mind had been inflamed by misstatements; it had formerly been 'hewn, that when wheat was at 90s. the quarter, the quay tern loaf could be sold at 13td. yet a certain Chief Magis trate had lately said, at 80s. its prier must be from 15J. to 18d. He was not the advocate of any par ticular class of men, he desired to do that which would prove beneficial to all classes. He anxiously hoped another year would not be suffered•to pass be fore this measure was adopted. If it were not carried even the manufacturer would suffer, and the free holder must know that for the penny or three half pence which he might save in a loaf, he would lose ten times the amount of such saving in security.— Those most anxious to oppose this Bill would be found to be persons more solicitous to gain popula rity than studious to understand the merits of the question. The labourers, wha were now reduced to the situation of what was called in the country roundsmen, would, if this measure were not agreed to, soon become mendicants, and mendicants where bread could not be raised. Mr. PR OTHEROE explained. Mr. LI.LIOTT rose to declare, that although he voted against a measure like the present, last Session, he did so from a fit m persuasion that the time was ill adapted for the discussion, and because there was a singular paucity of evidence to lead the House to a final and deliberate decision. No person was more averse than he was, to what were termed political re gulations ; they requit ed more than ordinary circum spection in their adoption. But notwithstanding these and other considerations, from the information then before the House, his views of policy led him to sup port the present measure as one most essential for the preservation of the power of the country.— (Thor). On all hands, it was admitted, that some regulations were necessary, and their object was to select such as would appear most beneficial to the general interests of the community. With reference to the beneficial result front unrestricted commerce, as a general prin. ciple t be admitted it, but it was not to be taken with out us due limitations. Commerce, in its enlarged view, embraced a wide range of interests, which rarely could be crushed by any sudden extraneous opera tion. But inland trade was different, it was the crea ture of the State ; it did not depend upon their own efforts, it affected, and in the present instance vitally, all dr! classes of the community, and was, if unre gulated, at the mercy of foreigners.—(Hear, hea?).— 'rhe country was thereby committed, nut as in com merce, to its own resources, but to the discretion of rival, and perhaps hostile powers—(Heor, hear). — The situation of Ireland in itself called for the Bill .; that country was capable of being made the granary of the Empire, and surely called - for, any preference which the demands of England may require, and which, if not sheltered at home, must centre upon the Continent.—(Hear).--A great deal had been said of the comparative wealth which different classes in society contributed to the State, but this was not a case between any two parties.—(Hear).Exclusively of this, the principle of the contribution was erro neous, for wealth, though it evidently constituted a fort, did not constitute the whole of the power of a , State.—(Hear. hear.)—The present point at issue was plainly this -6g whether a linani should be held out to a foreign market, to , din diseidragement of your own r'—(Hear, hear)—and consideving. the peculiar advantages which the Centinent presented, there could be. no doubt of the quarter in which the benefit must fall. The great difference between. this country and the Continent was in the prices of subsistence, this arose from the comparative state of taxation, which of course hid, its scope of action ; but he would contend , that iniffnal supply was not only the great shitld of the commerce of the country, but the prop of its manufactures, and the pillar of its power.—(Cries of hear, hear.) — Situate as the country was, a man must have nerves of iron who could calmly rely upon France for a supply of corn; that nation, as formerly, may view the people of their neighbouring state with a jealous eye, and place our people dependant upon a foreign state fur their most essential article of food. (Near.) Here the Right Hon. Gentleman expressed his high sense of the manufacturing interests—they formed a part of the solid prosperity of the country ; they con tributed largely, in their various relations, to the em. bellisliment and refinement of the physical and social enjoyments of society. ,But the bans of the structure was land—the country had flourished, and agricultural.-- would stilt flourish, because it was greatly agriculta I (Hear, hear, hear.)—lt vras.not situate as were other blades ; from the nature of its power, it was exposed to confederate hostilities,' and should coasequently, I a% .Milrob as possible, limit s !Aspic article of its s,s. tenant. to dm internal femme. within its own grasp.' Su :* ' and population went hand. in hand - , and the . r Armild* not be pro Bribed, without the other bte beiate flitifigd. In fact, ins' country like' theirs, no pasittescould be reduced without involving another. It "tip 'fair protection was held out to the agrical tiwilt, th e gentry must suffer a reduction of their' means—and would this entail no practical grievance upan society ?—(Hear, hear.).—To • the renown' of the nation, a protracted and awful contest had called forth the spirit arra feelings of every class in the country, every individual, from the highest to the lowest, bore his-part with patience, perseverance, and constancy ; it would •be hard, at the close of such a career, to separate and overthrow one class of so ciety. What would becOme of the peasantry if the measure were not enacted ? Were they not, of all mankind, the least capable of adapting themselves to any other pursuit than that in which they were origi nally engaged ?—(Hrar, /gar.) The political econo mist had always viewed them as the least convertible to any other purpose of public utility, and if the agri cultural interest was suffered to be . torn. up by the roots, the staple anchor of the property of the country had lost the only hold by which it was secure. Sir JAMES SHAW repelled the insinuations which had been illiberally levelle.; at the opponents of the measure, on the ground of their courting popu larity. Against the accusation, as far as it was aimed at himself, he presented the past tenour of his life, and would fearlessly abide the result. The worthy Alderman then entered into a calculation of the last ten years, to shew the probable price of bread after the enactment of this law. Taking the general cal culation at 80s. he Ltd no doubt, from a reference to the table of Assize, that the London price of the loaf would be Is. 3ii. calculated at 9;s. from the comparative average of the London and Country prices for the last few years. A few years ago a Committee sat in that House, and proclaimed 135s as the prohibitory price, and now another Comthittee declared 80s. ; and yet with these conflicting deci. sions, a man who refused his assent to their efficacy, was to be proclaimed as scattering disaffection through the Empire. (Hear, hear.) Mr. ROBINSON would not trouble the House again upon the general question, that had been too ably and powerfully maintained ; but lie would limit himself to adverting to what had just fallen from the Honourable Alderman, upon the subject of averages. The Honourable Alderman had stated, that when the average of the maritime districts was at eighty shillings, wheat in London was 90s. and ninety-five shillings. On this the Worthy Alderman pinned his faith. He (Mr. Robinson) would meet hint there fore upon his own data, and he would distinctly state, with reference to these calculations, that the Hon. Alderman's facts were not facts, and consequently his inferences were not true; if, however, he were to admit his facts, he would deny the inferences drawn from them. The calculation was manifestly incom plete; for the real statement was, the price of grain in the country markets, so far from being lower, was often higher than that of London. The Worthy Alderman omitted to state a fact which occurred withidhis own Mayoralty, namely, that the price of wheat in the maritime districts was Ss. S4d. higher than that of Loudon.—(Lcud cries of Hear, hear!) So it was quite clear that this calculation was wholly erroneous. Here the Right Hon. Gentleman, uith cOnsidetabli warmth, animadverted cm the conduct of those who presumed to urge, after its repeated disavowal on the parts of those concerned, that the object of the Bill was to enhance the price of food.— (Bear, hear.)—On the contrary, he would unequivo cally maintain that its main object would be to re duce the price of sustenance.—(Hear, hear.) -11 any man could prove the contrary to him by fair argu ment, he would at once relinquish the matter. It went, in his mind, in a clear principle of reduction, carrying down with it rents which would entail no evil,' bat in its consequences afford an ample fund of subsistence for the poor ; for that reason, and from a conscientious conviction that the principle and details of the Bill would promote this object, he would give the measure his warmest concurrence. Lord A. HAMILTON contended, that if the Bill in its effect reduced the price of corn, how could it have so beneficial an operation in upholding the agricultural interest ?—(Hear, kar.)—He had given the minutest attention to the subject, anti the result of his investigation was, that its aim and object was to keep up the 'Nice of grain ; in fact, if it had not this effect, he was at a loss to ascertain what could be the cause of its introduction. The Noble Lord repeated his former observations upon this subject, an pointed out the close connection between the pre sent question, and the state of cu' rency of the country, and the artificial financial measures which were pur sued by Government. He admitted the existence of agricultural embarrassmenti, but he denied the possi bility of their removal by the Legislative protection which was proposed. In fact, they must extend it ,to othei articles as well as corn, before they could reckon upon its consistent'application. Above all, he condemned the Bill, because it made its appearance at the only .period in which the public looked to a low pkice of food, as arising out of the return of general peace. Mr. POLE CAREW supported the Bill. Mr. BARING rose amidst a cry of ag Question ! Question I" but the Honourable Gentleman declared, that notwithstanding the anxiety manifested to come to a decision, he felt it his duty to call for somewhat more of deliberation, and to state his sentiments upon this important subject. He should not, perhaps, at that stage of the discussion, have thought it necessary to trespass upon the attention of the House, if it were not for what had fallen front the proposer of this measure, or rather, indeed, if it were not for what had net fallen from that Right Hon. Gentleman. For that Right Hon. Gentleman had declined to state that about which, indeed, the House had not heard one wordfrom any supporter of this meuure,naniely,upon what grounds it was thought necessary to agriculture, to fix the import price at 80s. The nosse had heard much with regard to the necessity of protect ing the landed interest and promoting the prosperity oragriculture; but nothins had yet been stated to shew the necessity of fixing the price Mentioned in' the It was not sufficient, for the satisfaction of' the House or of th4 . popular feeling, to deal in vague. terms upon this important subject. It ought to be distinctly' dinned why the import price of 80s. was *aired id'uttit beriefit of the landed interest, and Anna suay t tsaiation was naturally to be looked for 4 ' J fro* the tight To. Gentleman, who had not, how. ever, one. word about it f-lettrAho- itiatit HON. Gentlenialt.tasteattl of vapid's:Woo, and contrary to his . usual'practice, had, on this occasion, made up in vehe mence for the want of argument, and after some trifling criticism upon the statement of Alderman, had thotight proper to assert, that die object of the mea. sure before the House WAS to reduce the price of bread. This assertion, would not, however. serve to allay the popular complaints ;fir the Same .xpedimit was tried in vain upon the g.ip.:l4 net'Aitoide at MA:. stone, by Lord Darnley. Bot the subterfuge was too coarse to hive any direct. It wag indeed, obviously absurd, for if the purpose and tendency of this mea. sure were not to raise the price of corn, how could it be said to hold out the prospect of remuneration to the farmer ? (Near, hear.) Why, he would ask, should Gentlemen penevere in supporeng such * measure if it promised no benefit to the farmer, while it was so alarming to the m tnufacturer, while it excl. ted such loud and genera I cl 3 mour through the country? The evidence would not bear the supporters ot the measure out in their assertion, that the price which they required was necessary. The real state of the question was, that owing to the prolongation of tie war, and other circumstances, the agriculture of tlit country was in a state of distress from which it must be as much the wish, as it was the interest ot every class of the community, that it should be relieved. That relief, however, should be but temporary, and then by a gradual diminution of the price of lah•stir, of the quantity of taxation, and of the amount of rents, the farmer would eventually be able to culti vate his lands with advantage. But, 46 No !" said the: supporters of . the measure, 66 we will not lower our rents—we will support our rents as they are, and the consumers of corn shall pay a higher price for it." As to the argument deduced from the necessity of rendering ourselves independent on any foreign sup ply, it WAS valueless. In things of a more critical stature even than corn, in naval stores, we had seen slim ing the late war every combination of efFort resorted to to prevent us from obtaining them, but without effect. —What the Legislature had now to determine was, whether or not the proprietors of land should make any concession (he did not wish for a considerable one), in order to enable the farmers to proceed ad. vantageously with their tillage ? If not—if by artifi cial means it was attempted to support :he rents as they stood, the consequences, by slow degrees, would b e t h ese i—in the first instance, a high pi ice of corn would be maintained ; —by degrees ti•is would turn out of the country one branch of iiZistry after the other; the population of the country would diminish, by the emigration of the people in quest of cheap food ;—the corn grown in the country would tl:en certainly be adequate to its consumptioni—ultimately the agriculturist would find out his mistake, and corn would fall to a state of the greatest depression. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER begged leave to recta the attention of the House to the stage of the Bid which WA bstine them. It was the second reading. They had not then to determine any question of price, or average, or duration, or any other question of detail. All that they had at that time to consider was, whether or not it wai proper to adept any measure at all a•n the subject and he presumed, that whatever might be the variety of opinion on particulars, all must admit generally that an alteration of the existing taws was necessary. Mr. W I run REA I) declared that he had listened with the utmost attention to all that had been said on both sides of the qiiestion, and that the result was a derided conviction in his mind, not only that it would be improper to legislate on the subject, but that great danger might be the consequence :of legislating on it. •He gave credit to the Right Ho nourable Gentlernau onns"ite (Mr. Robinson) for the way in which he had repelled so:ne improper insinuations thrown on the motives of those who supported the measure, but he was surprised at the Right I knourable Gentleman's conclusion, which was in direct contradiction to all that he had said before on the subjet. If be understood the thing at all, the original proposition was not that rents were too high, but that coin was too low, and that it ought to be raised to such a price as to enable the farmer to cultivate his land with advantage, without reducing the landlord to the necessity of lower ing his rents. But to-night the Right Hon. Gentleman turned round, and said, that he would not have brought forward the measure, had he not thought that a reduction in the price of bread would be the conse quence, attended by the lowering of rents : let the land. ed interest consider this—let the financier look to this —let him look to what must follow, the reduction of establishments—the reduction of the occupation of the artisan, and a long train of attendant evils. As to what had been said of the Petitions against the Bill, in his opinion those Petitions deserved notice in pro. portion to the number of the petitioners. To those who contended that the people were not fit judges of the subject, he would reply that they were much more competent judges of it than they were of theology, and yet it was well known that they had recently signed Petitions in great numbers against the renewal of the doctrine of transubstantiation, and the estab lishment of the Pope in England I As to the popu. larity which might be obtained in the one way or the other, those who made popularity their object, would meet a fate similar to that of the boy who rah to discover the ends of the rainbow, and who ex perienced a ducking for his pains, while the gaudy vision vanished from his sight. He should have a bad opinion of the House of Commons, if he thought that on a subject like this they could be swayed by any wish to court popularity. But lie would never theless advise them to remain where they were.—. If they did not do so, they would speedily be called on to Iggislste on a subject of still more difficult handling. If they adopted the proposed measure the consequence should be that in eight months corn should be at a very high price, would not the manu. facturer have a right to come in his turn and require r edress ? And yet to grant a redress adequate to the necessity would in that case be impossible. The fact was that Parliament seemed to him to he emulating the philosopher in. Rasselas, who fancied that the son, the wind, and the rain were all under his con trout, and that at his pleasure he could raise a tem pest or produce a calm. As for a temporary mea sure, that seemed to him to be the worst plan of all. He concurred heartily in the amendment proposed by his Honourable Friend. Mr. ROBINSON explained. It was true he had said that in bit bpittion the effect of the Bill would 1 1