Star. — London, England, 1815-02-24 00:00:00

throughout France was 465. and not 40s. as had been erroneously asserted. It ought to be recollected, that the calculation was made at the old rate of exthange, of 21 'lyres to the pound, and it was unfair to for e such a calculation on a depreciated cunt:atty. fact was. that the price of Corn was not 'always iv. gulated by loreign jinportation. Recendy there bad been a greater fall than the importation which had really taken place would larraitt,particolaily in barley, the importation of which had been very much dinti. • nished within the last year. He conceived the real state of the counry, during the war, had been the real cause of the present depression. After the long • closure, of the continent, farmers were now at once exposed to the competition of all European markets, . and the suddenness of that change was the Merin that rendered the protection of the Legislature seers -6,liT. He did not wish for an exiravagant protection ta be given, so as to cause great profits to be made, and the price of bread to be raised, but merely for chat wi uIJ prevent the ruin of agriculture. Almost all the witnesses ex mined by the CoMmittee had . stated, that they considered 80s. a fair protection price, uad:r the particular circumstances of the times, but as those circumstances had changed, as imports had been dereased, and the Property. Tax removed, he thought that :lower sum would now be sufficient. The price that would prevent intrortation, was not • that which would go into the farmers pockets. Con sidering the expence bf shipping's &c. incurred by Linnets in the North to send their cora to market, be thought the nonimportation price should be a little .higher than what they were to have as the intrinsic value of their grain. He objected to the manner in which the general average of the price of corn was t iken. The country was divided into twelve maritime districts, and the general was made from comparing their particular. verage. He had himself seen the. return of one district, stating 109 quarters to haver .been sold for a sum specified, and. that small quan.• tity had influenced a twelfth part of the general ave. ragein the same proptvrtion as 400() quarters sold in another district. Ile thought that it was unfair that 4,he average of small quantities should thus influence aheiNliole. This mode of taking the average would be »early eqlril to a duty rf Si. or 4s. He should therefore prefer nitiking the protection price, in order to attain the ohj:t:t which ail must desire, rather 765. than 80s. The necessity ci a protection had chiefly _grown out of the alteration in our currency ; as a new alteration in that quarter was to take place at no very distant period, it might produce a new revulsion, and at the end of two years, perhaps, it would be come necessary to alter the provisions now proposed, and, the douse would be bound to make that relative al; tel :Won in the law, and lower the nonim inflation price, which it was now requisite should be raked. He .thee took a view of the improved state of the Corn Laws, from the middle of the reign of Charles 11. to; the present time. It was then prohibited to purchase :corn to sell again, but now exports were completely' free. Lord PROBY supported the Resolutions, on the ground that they were in favour of the agricultural interest, which affected every class rf society. Unli mited importation would be the ruin of agriculture. Mr. CALCRAFT . disputed some of the topics; which his Hon. Friend (Mr. Baring j h id introduced. ; He did not understand that inn:acme tr bute which was said to be paid to the agricultural interest, as: he did not conceive himself indebted to any class' Of his Majesty's subjects for what he received in ex-i change for the produce of his lands. He also con tended that couwv gentlemen lived at least one half cf the year AT their lands and in the middle of, th..:ir tenants. He would not admit that the subject; was entirely uncennected with rents. Kent was un-i doubtedly a componmt part of the produce on which; Country gentlemen lived. for a farm of four hun dred and twenty acres, in Scotland, it was in evidence that the tenant peid 42600 ayear ; that its produce was estimated at 85000, half of which consequently; went to the landholder. Would any one deny that rent in that case did not affect the price of corn ?—, Another Gentleman was surprised that the small quantity of French corn imported during the year could have such an effect on the price of grain. But the quality of the French corn was so much superior to ours, that hi his neighbourhood millers would nog buy the latter unless they could get it for almost no; thing. He had asked farmers themselves what theyi would have got for their wheat if there had been not importation from France, and they hardly knew;; but they acknowledged, that, on account of the state of the harvest this year, it had proved a most seine tart' supply. He thought that neither the Legisla. sure nor the Government of any country should be permitted to interfere in support of any branch of trade, except on the principle that their interference would be for the benefit of the community at large. • He had received the thanks of all his neighbours,: famers as well as others, for the part which he had! .taken in opposing a similar measure - last-year. The; present; however, was better timed, as the distreesesl of tamers culiivating only arable lands were really; great. It had alsoheen discussed with more temper; and coldt,ur ; but 'the information of which thel liousc we% in potseesien was not yet sufficient. lirsNe stood in a new order of things ; peace was buejusti •arrived, and scarcely completely 'established; . above all, the farmers were tecured against impolite- 1 riot for three months to come, he should byre *N. famed seeing the operation of peace, of decreased; creation, mod the removal of the Property Tale rent as It affected farmers in one {wart only, bat through! -every article in which it most be felt before , gerne into the question. A . delay of six-or eeveneweeks tel ascertain the effect of all these alter:Wars On The; price of torn wduldluive been •highly beneficial be-i free taking the step which had been proposed ,o ;night. He Was so hr . :from Wishlageto irtflerne the public, however, or throw obstacles the . way Of the discussion, 'that Ire would Like it ere 'it was. H e • keel thought at, first, !that utetopncarywreasuro Would Le The best; but tin lurthrt seonskterution, he 'had considered that it was a matter nepeefeet indifference &Stet sheald 41e made permaftern. Frtek iris expe rience of the Hen*, he was drtdl 4i9slate that ehisesere eminent 'measure would Roar/mut ft:south, pro• duce treat public inconvenient*, than k irotdd 'be come temporary Ur' the 14Ouse would 'hasten to pat au owl 'to Its operation. Quthie ground' !he thief sot this* he sbould•vdte for the , amendrheut. Al to the protettiuts prime, provided 'the timer ehdtild be seppmed, 40.11/eris sta4l4l:lmutelibliaillrbe matter of satisfaction to the country. Fanners ad. mitted that they had good tinges t he was glad of it ; but let the House recollect that those 'sieve times of the greatest importadOn. .154 did not mean ill as. irt that iiqothtion had produced their prosPerity. but to shear that it had not previnted it. The pro- Posed 861. would be an immense rise from 631. It would be nearly equal to thirty per cent. and that was too much when the quality of the corn was such as he had described. To give that ease and security which were so ardently called for, the subsistence of the people ought not to be raised above the price of labour; otherwise we must again have recourse to the expedient of paying half the price of labour out of the Poor Rates. Ho was told no. What else could be done ? Were wages to be raised to twenty or thirty shillings a-week to support the family of the labourer ? It was asserted, that wheat would not rise to the full limits of the importation price. He bad no doubt but this year it would. It should not be forgotten also, that to have the average at 80s. per quarter, the best wheat must rise to 100 s. at least. Would it be fair that the public should pay lOos. in order to give the farmers is protecting price ? The evidence was allex-parte evidence. They wished to make a ease, and they had made it. Farmers were a quiet, pru dent set of people. They knew how to makegoodbargains and to get good bills ; but they were not vnong in that, it Was their trade, hod they bad a right to do what would insure them the greatest profits. He thought 80s. however, really too much. He apologized for not mentioning Ireland, bystating that whenever the interests of this country were men tioned, those of Ireland were included. lie- was aware of her distresses ; but was the non-importation price to be as high for the Irish as for us ? Did they not grow corn cheaper than our farmers ? ' They had no Land Tax, no Poor Rates, never had felt the .Property Tax, and therefore, he conceived, ought . not to have as high a protection as the cultivators (4 . England. He conceived that the conduct of the millers, who only took their best samples to the In spector-General, and always contrived to forget or lose their worst, had operated against the farmers, otherwise the ports +mold probably have been that against importation massy months ago. He con- 1 ceived that 725. or 9s. per bushel, would be a sulli tient protecting price. Such an advance of wren shillings per quarter would answer all the, advan tages which the moat sanguine advocates of the mea sure could anticipate, particularly his Irish friends. If these resolutions could be so modified, with una nimity in the House, they would produce all the in. tended good. The experiment would be tried and the relief given. The distress of the farmers was not general. Those who only rented arable lands were most certainly in unfortunate circumstances; but many farmers had lands of a mixed nature, and did not suffer, or suffered but little, as sheep, wool, hops, and fruit, had not failed like corn. He looked upon this question as one of rent and taxation, .and the ground on Which he should not oppose ft was, that it was necessary the landed interest should be supported that ail other classes should ultimately be benefited. Though living upon rents -himself, and: owing his bread to the farmers, he should not shrink from his duty. He heard it said amongst the public, that the House was too landed. This objection had ; never been made before, but he thought that there. were other interests sufficiently powerrui rift itriliV ment, to check any attempt which the landed interest might mike to obtain an undue influence. He re-' commended unanimity to the House. The candour and temper with which the discussions had been car ried on, would do great credit to Parliament, and great good to the community. Should the meaeure• be duly considered andfprogrenively introduced, its effect would be more satisfactory. The people were , not ignorant of the distresses of the farmers, and their opinion had lately undergone a great alteration.' The tradesmen invountry towns had begun to feel' that since farmers had less money to spend, they had less to receive. This led them to inquire into the* cause of the farmers' want of means, end to with that some relief should be granted them. -Hecon-', eluded by recommending that the Resolutions should be modified as he'hadmentiossed. Sir N. COLEI'HURS'f thought Ireland did not want Tess, but more protection-than England. If hd conceived the effect of the measure would be to raise, the price of bread he would not support it, but he -thought the contrary would be the Cafe. He decidedly objected to the amendment. Mr. PROTHEROE congratulated the House oat the temper with which the discussion had been con ducted. When he beard the quarter from which it proceeded, he was afraid the whale weight of Go vernment would have been thrown unfairly into thd balance ; , but the conduct of the Right Hon. Gentle-. man by whom it hadbeenbroughtforward, convinced; him that he had really the interests of agriculture at heart. After.some further observations, Mr. Pro thero expressed a wish that the protection -price. should be reduced to 72:. Sir JOHN STE WA ItTstated, that Ireland would , .be 'satisfied and gratefellovany regulation the iris. -dons of Parlimnent would enact for her•pmetecticon., Be den took a 'view fof the tiatation of Europe.—, Whilst, Ili it ihad been said, the :great Kings.of Chet earth were ,altembled, and with the map of Europe: before thern,•poiniedfor &sliced out, with unhallowed, fingers, the-:portione vietatesto be seised, And under the French name of fraternization, to be united to' their own empires a 'while dime imusena partitions! swore taking , place, we must look to tear own little 4 , 4 land. We were to 'hope the tea, bet to prepare ' for' the word. Was it . with the - view of 'peace that ! those Sovereirezdtiedmillione to their own , euilects?! Was it Melvin* at 'peace rtbatnPoleddwat tm4 slaved, and • Saxony placed under a eaaftertbe .Slid' ant choose, and gnat revelutione wet leaking •plate is other :qaarsers'i ' Could we Trate 'mote attbjects lahlita - aunkraip; and Nature iftlbltdskit, ihr durieratt.' lar ilatitioll 1 ftlt roe • aright slo ilt 'by . in creasing ;our sgricalane. it was a amnion crying—et the Mete' Corn you gverw, the more inontlis esill:psu 'havoc° eat b." .111byitgricaltestwwe maid liehe en sire of land tuppoit time primly theme 'ffidiled oar pa-, potation.: if stwo, • we •daubled ?it. We , rhlght then preevreaa itagthentatiosid. ted'aillioasof'subjeets, and what.tubjellts I Zaino wet 'Um stalaer 'the iron sceptre. of a wean, andemidy ,tecillattiben Mt deva state at hies atuataid eiretipattitterotemetid ion their atm sail, tinder the motif iramerfraati toady oldie is tappertsf 3 dosir CovialsotiooliNvitiinvs; klailseir loilopoodemok • . To' dlsoosiolvoktiosilistr 11111140 li:courage population. bad fallen avert to.; gether. In looking to 'III it *mild be seen that ilium the prohibition. of the exportation of her wool lens, by the lath and flub of King Wiltaint by which ship and cargo *ere Made liable to seizure; Ireland had arrive 4 at the pant of paying two mil lions to England felt her woollen manufactures. But this could not continue to bt the case, unless by dis posing of her grain she should obtain the means of making those puichases. After entering at large into the state of Ireland, and alluding to the emigra tion to America, he concluded by supporting the Re solutions. Mr. MORRIS said, that it was a general princi ple that a reduction in the price of corn, was a reduc tion in the price of labour also. The labourer and manufacturer, therefore, deceived themselves when they were so desirous of low price bread. Cheapness of corn was cheapness of labour. It was bad policy to depend on foreign nations for subsistence. Our great enemy. Bonaparte, made the supply which we drew from France, by which he was enabled to carry On his views against us. If the country did not grow corn enough for herself, could she always depend on those nations from which she had been accustomed to draw her supplies ? Could the North of Europe, France, and Antirica, be relied on ? Was there no danger in depending on the Governments of foreign nations ? We were hitherto able to maintain our Maritime supctiolity. But were we sure of being always able to preserve that superiority ? If we should lose it, and that those countries from which we have been in the habit of drawing our subsistence should be under the contionl of our enemy, what would be our condition ? A high protecting price for corn would be an increase of the price of those articles, which the manufacturing classes have to dis pose cf. Encouraging the farmer would be ferti lising the soil, fostering the population, and multiply ing the strength ol'the country. He, therelme, would support the Resolutions. Sir WILLIAM cußris said, that as far as re striction on the importation of corn was necessary to protect the grower, he would go with all his heart and soul ; but don £4 a quarter was too high. He would be sorry to see any alteration in the law as it stood at present, the protecting price of which be con ceived was suffieently high.' The only question was, what would be a sufficient protecting price, what a fair remuneration to the farmer ? There were but few, even of those, examined by the Committee, who thought it should be so high as 80s. there were many lobo thought it should be below SOs. He would be sorry to see it higher than 725. though he would not oppose it at 80s. Sir EGERTON BRYDGES considered the de pression of agriculture Would be as injurious to the manufacturer as to the farmer. Who would buy the manufacturers articles, if the landed interest were not able to purchase ? The depression of agriculture would be the diminution of the price of these articles. If any one branch of the wealth of nations was to be encouraged more than another, it was agriculture.— It was that on which all depended. It differed from every other source of prosperity, as it was the first necessary. Even were foreign countries able to sup: ply us, we ought not to depend on them. We know that agriculture has increased our population. • Ask the manufacturer himself what is to become of that Increased population, if agriculture be depressed Even should ~time inconveniencies threaten to result from the encouragement of agriculture by keeping up a sufficient price for corn, we oufboto rim the risk of less evils to avoid .so peat an evil as the de crease of our population. Mr. LOC K kr wished to call the attention of the Hcuse to one of the arguments made use of by those Gentlemen who opposed the original Resolu tions. They asserted, that the only consequence which could result from adopting their plans would be, the throwing out of cultivation a quantity of poor land, and they seemed to think, that this Would not be an and sirable thing ; because they conceived it was better that capital should be withdrawn from that channel, to be applied to a more profitable pur, pose. Now, with respect to removing capital from land, it was impossible. The money once laid out in improving laud was sunk in it, and could not be recalled. You might, undoubtedly, refrain from sinking-any, farther sums in its cultivation—but to talk of withdrawing capital from it, was to apply 'a .mere mercantile idea where the governing principlei were entirely dissimilar. He should be glad to 'mow what was meant by the term poor land? Did it apply, to clayey, sandy, chalky, or gravelly so ih ? These soils, it should be observed, produced a great deal of sustenance for the country. If these soils were to be taken out of cultivation, where, he would ask, were they to procure provisions for those who were now fed by themp-owho were employed in 6MT-them-a and who, if they were. given up, would be thrown out 'of employment ? It was clear that they must be fee! from the products of that land, which was suffi ciently rich to grow corn, 'without a very expensi system of agriculture. Would not this raise t fr pride df corn produced on those fine soils ? An tW would not the pootwates,swhich the bad soils hithert, helpedlo defray, be thrown. entirely on those of •s. different description ? A (private interest seemed tied much to be pursued in considering this question.— f w o i r th i instance, ahni his e look n • cs notetoii t v c e k %le totet.lbdcrßet . yr . f o lk ! :7 1 1 ; Many, to save a paltry Nees in the price of the' h nr quartern loaf, would abandon the interest of the land: ho the ld H er o ,c u a s n e d , cwerthoairtipayidhathdejduirviidarids,ludtabei he a doubt 'the landowners. He meant not to overlook,, or tO depreciate that which was derived from com-1 grits/ie. But let•rhe rent of the landowner cease, and. where, fie would 4ike to , know, were the dividends to, come.from ? Those who, conceiving they might sleets trifling loss from the sdoption of the Resalu ,tiont now'before the House, thought fit to oppose Amen, were, he was satisfied, overlooking interests of nuajoritripdrtanee. And /hey would ultimately &W r it they veiusedimgrane to agriculture a fair •and just protection,- their tortunes•were placed oh a sinew/and and visionary lamina—it should he-recol lected, solho . poetthid deurvibed . it; '" itireterasantri, dirk coentey's vide, . 14 if wpm Opus' coin, Can *CM twooppbud I" Lord COMPTON supported the Resolutions. If encouragement were given to manufacturers, how ever detrimental to Me. health. "orals, andheppi nen of our lation, he could conceive nona gon.; yohy a si x,,protecpi *lipid be ;dated (A i agticuliure. Mr. J. P. GRANT rose, to state the rla s which induced him to support the Resolutions inn., duced by the Right Horicatrable Gentleman (Mr. Robinson), and to oppose the amendment. He could not but congratulate the Committee on the arpp , a which the Resolutions had received from his M 6 jesty's Ministers • and also on the change of opiuion dwas obein:;rehle in antral Genklemen since tlt. question was last discussed—particularly in the alte• ration which appeared in the sentiments off an Hr. nourable Gentleman (Mr. Finlay) who represente one of the largest manufacturing cities which rettirr ed a Member to that House. If he thought 6. adoption of this measure would have the effect u raising the price of grain, no consideration v. , 4 , :ij induce him to give it his support. But it tv“s pre. cisely because he wrs of opinion, that an taw t aav of this kind was necessary to keep down the price grain, that he should vote for the Resolutioi:... had listened with gzeat attention to every thing 7'4 had been said against those Resolutions, told cularly to what had fallen from the Hon.Guntimrsa t (Mr. Baring) who moved the Amendment; and !:1 confessed, he could not tied a sirtgle at;;l:nlent appeared to him to be warranted, Ly pi', ciples that ought to govern this question, or !ry C. tate of the facts. 'rimy bad been told, aTi,l ;24 arguments against the Resolutions . proceeL.::,l on C.• Same assumption, that they were about to raise C. pr ice of bread-corn.—that, by so doing, they raise the price of labour—and that the coosto.er..:t would be an increase of the price of manufactures, which would prevent British good, from enterir.;, witli any prospect of success, the foteign market.— They had also been told, that it would be adrar tageons for this country to draw its supply of front foreign parts, in order to support our MCA:. factuting superiority ; and that it was must impor. cant to leave trade, and the employment of capita', perfectly free. He hoped to sliew, that those vl.l supported the Resolutions were as much impr 00 ,..4 with the necessity of leaving free the etnplo)tuent capital, as the Genthium who spoke on the etlrr side of the question.' Under the circumstances ea *the country, he was of opinion, that a restricti at the importation of grain, and the giving to ft.? grower what was not very accurately termed a mo nopoly of the home market, were the uric true means of 'lowering tlw price of corn. Tl:is could, he conceived, be proved, by a refirence facts—leaving aside that theory by which so m.tvy persons had been led astray. They had, in the mu on the Corn Laws, a connected history of the pricr of grain, from the commencement of the tt Tit 4i James I. And, in applying them to the prescaa ease, lest it might ha supposed that tentru;iry cif . cumstances had affected them, he had taken his data on long periods: - Middling Wheat per Quartei. Avera g e Price. For 11 year., ending 1603 41 12 141 YO years, ending 1625 1 14 1 YO yeani, ending 1641 1 19 1 20 par, ending 16f:3 t 4 4 Here it was evident - that during this pc! i:ul, the trade was open, that the price of ulte.:t risen from 41 12s. 10d. to 12 45.41—m0re th.!a one third. • Then came the Act of Charles, v..1.i. protected the home grower of corn. Unc;,7 t!, . Act, the average puce of corn tor eo year, tic... 3 1665 to 1685, was £1 Iss. 7J. instead of /V. 4s. It continued to fall till' be year 1764 ; .and it as t very curious circumstance, that the average . of In ears preceding the last-mentioned period, wn nef el I ls. Bd. per qu.trter, being coLsiderably the average of 20 years, ending with the 4th James I. notwithstanding the depreciation in e,..! value Of money. It s% as Laii, that the intreak. price of corn arose from the increased aad from the increase c 1 wealth in the c , u. 9 ) . But, surely, no one could argue, that from ;I:e tinat of Charter 11. up to the year 17131, the country had stood still in those respects—and yet it was vev! , clearly proved, that whaicver -mielzt have "beet t: e increase of the population, or the aupnent.itinn wealth, the price of • grain had decreased, during that period, under the Coin Laws. In 17G1., use Corn Laws were abolished, and the average price .01 the quarter of corn stood thus r•-- - For 207earr coding t 784 - £2 4 6 For 20 years ending 1804 - 2 1 Thus, they found, that an increase in the ptice wheat.took place in the. reign of James 1. el.cti r) restriction existed. The Coin Laws introdeced the reign of Charles 11. which protected the growCr, operated-for 100 years, ,to diminish•the price. Tait • system was abandoned in 1764, and the corueqtreecr was, that a very .great increase of price was occi sioned. He would only request of Gentlemen point out some other way in -which :this efiect was produced. Till that was done, he alruuldvausain e! opinion, that the moderate -average was the conse quence of wholesi. - 4ine laws—and that the high ra-e of corn was occasioned by the want of proper pro tection for the agricultural interest. Much had torn said about making this .an exportieg cnuntry. No? he would state, that-England became an erportk• Country in 17(15, agd•continned so, snider the Act Clearles the Second, until 1.764, when that 'Act _es repealed, and she ceased to .error. In the tarns - .• years preceding .1764, 350,000 quartets of co: a wr. exported, on an average ; since that pzriod, we 114. been, ol.liged to import. Thus it a;pearcd, from t perience, that the regular operation of laws why. secured the home-niarket to - the grower, had render.. the price of corn cheaper, and had also end'. kJ to send grain abroad. He then proceeded to.algl . • in answer to those who reprobated Cie facing cal cal by a boulity, to be employed in channels to whit . it would noz, utherwise find its way, that the sacrifi , of a little weilth, either where national.bcarrtfr • national rwienarce demanded it, was, in fact, politic ; and in bupport of this opinion, Ile-yr,* Dr. .11.4,im Smith. HeTtztictly agreed with he . that where the seem icy of a country %% is conctrcie. it was proper to give up wealth to securer/y:4y - and. in the same manner, where the sustenance the people was at stake, it was true policy to gi* up same, to obtain feel. •—• He then contende. , that the agriculturist .had. as good a right as ti manufacturer to protecting enactments—and 1• called uporkGentlernen who argued on the oppos' side of the ,qugation, tp point out the swath:A art dc of the onarinfacture of this cauntry, which.W. n_tirtiu c fr_otectedi erten to the prohibition of any. -tr t consiqg from abroad.. The protectiog du' .• 'on our mast.tralieg .articla of manufacture wirs - n ' s war~ti or.POiser tint. ail va.'crryt. 1% fly then :Lb . .. •