Star. — London, England, 1802-12-16 00:00:00

p nic (late of the Bikini empire, that until the abi! li t i es of that great man who prefided in the late , i d n imiaration, be recalled, there can be no hope for the permanent profperity and fafety of tilt country. I mi d} aim fay, that thole who obftruet that great and falutary meafure, are, in my mind, gin In. of as great a crime as any which can b e coy:Mittel in a political point of view. It is ar gt►cd, my Lords, that fpecific charges fhould be broueht forward again(' his Majeity's Minillers ; an d if this be the pt inciple which is to regulate our decifion, are not the lame and inadequate communications from the Throne, on the fubjea of the Peace Ellablithment, alone fufficient to contlitute a fpecific charge ? Have not Miniaers, by their general condua, by their indecifion, and their filence, furnithed ample grounds to conflitute a fpecific charge ? I do not, my Lords, alk for the fecrets of negociation. 1 do not with to pry into the Arcana of State, which it would, no doubt, be impolitic to divulge; but I auk for thofe proper communications which have been uniformly made. Thefe, to which I conceive mvfelf, with every Noble Lord who hears me, constitutionally entitled, I am pofitively refuted. Inflead of franknefs, clearnefs, and de cifion, we have nothing but contradiairm, fludua. 'W t i o n, and con fi ifion. hat is the prefent Rate of our military and naval eftablifhment ? Inftead of a force of 250,000 men, which we porefred at the conclufion of Peace, we have ditbanded our troops, and our force is reduced to 130,000. Our naval firength isalfo reduced in a mon material and alarm ing degree. Inftead of t so,ooo feamen, for fnch it may he eflimated, confidering the di fference re felting from giving up the prifoners we held here, we have but so,ooo for abranch of the public ler vice above all others great and important. Our naval force rdi'lting from our naval flotation, mug alto he taken into the account, and in this point of view its reduction is confiderable. It is confi derable by-the furrender of the key of Jamaica, a nd fill more fo by the furrender of the Cape, and the poffeffloa of Cochin, which are calculated to inepite the melt ferious apprehenfions with refped to 'he fecurity of our Eall India poffeffions. [Here his Lordflip went over feveral of thegrounds which he had before taken againft the Treaty of Amiens, and the many als of injuftice evinced by the French Government towards Holland and Germany.)—" All thefe events, continued his Lotclfhip, happened when Parliament met laft year. Since that period, others have happened much more alarming. Cochin has been taken, and Bonaparte can occupy that port only with an intention of annoying our Empire in the Eaft.— Thus, fence Oftober z, 1804 the Continent of Europe has experienced great alterations, the power of France has continually increafed, while that of Great Britain has been impaired. I 'with to be informed what are the canfes for the prefent Peace Ettablithment of the Country, and furely I am juftified in demanding what grounds now exift, for not reducing the Army and Navy, as they were formerly intended, to 90,000 foldiers, and 30,000 feamen I with to be informed vaity orders were fent for the evacuation of St. Domin go, and why similar orders, iffued for the evacua tion of the Cape and of Malta, were afterwards countermanded ? Thefe, my Lords, I take to be grounds fufficient to conititute a fpecific charge." —What, his Lordfhip faid, he would auk, were the' ' principles recommended by his Majefty's Mini tiers, by which alone the alled"ed peace and fecu rity were to be maintained ? By a faithful adne rence to the Treaty of Ansieos—by a fcrupulous fyliem of furrender, of conce ffi on, of conciliatory ecocide ?—by tenac toufly refraining from eve!) , thing like afperity of language, or even remark tem the aggrandizing ftrides, or rapacious en croachments of France, and by cautioufly guarding axainll alliances on the Continent? But if his Majef ty's Minifters imagined that this was the mode of maintaining Peace, of conciliating the friendfhip, or restraining the ambition of France, they would Ind themfelves indeed woefully minaken. They would find, alas ! too late, that the refult of fuc k concluet would be exaelly the reverie ; and that every meaftire of furrender—of conceffion—or of timid acquiefcence, on their parts, would but operate as new and powerful tlimulants to the am bition, to the enterprize, and to the rapacious fpirit of that Power, whole chief object was the total denrudion of this country. They would find, that however ready they were to make facrifices for 'the- prefervation of peace, the maintenance of it was not at their option ; and that exactly in proportion as they Phew an anxiety to maintain that object at any expence, exactly in proportion as :hey withdrew all alliance, and the endeavour of cultivating it with the Continental Powers, and circumfcribed their force to the means of felf-defence, infomnch would they point out to the French Government the proportions in which it was to increafe its force, and the time and place when and where attacks upon the Britilb domieions were mall likely to become fuccefsful. But if he were to advife, a fyilem, the dired reverie of that adopted by his Marlty's Minifters, would be purfued, as the only means of fccuring peace; a fyftem of vigour, and of dignity ; and an en deavour th convince the Powers of the Continent, if not by cultivating their alliance, at leaft by the force of our example, that a fpirited refinance to the encroachments of France was the only mode by which the aggrandizements of that P9,wer were to be prevented from overwhelming Europe. As to ae aiting the chances which time might be like ly to produce, the idea was weak and ridiculous. As to the fenriments this nigh expreffed by the Noble Lord on the woolfack, he gave that Noble Perfon the hi hell credit for his lincerity, but was convinced, that if the Noble and Learned Lord would bend the whole force of his enlighteneu bind to a due confidA ration of the whole detail tithe fubjeet, (great as the public lots might be 01 arth an abflraftion of his talents from the juftie( and law of the Country), he would bold opinion• very different indeed from thole be had expreled this eight. The LORD CHANCELLOR rote to exprefs his re. Cie lag, that tattheex his alenea prellionofht p e refe No n b t le Lord ha who his confidence. Intereaed as he felt in the with he mnft re M that lofs. He could - a ffure the Noble Lord, - that there was no point of view under which he had placed the fubjeds of this night's fitcutfion, in the very able fpeech he had juft con cluded, in which it had not already occupied his own confederation with the utmoft anxiety; and if he were at liberty to declare the circumfiances which governed the conduit of his Majefty's pre fent Minifters, in the meafures which they had adopted, he was convinced the Noble Lord would agree with him, they were influenced by the bell confederations for the profperity of the Empire. He had the confolation to refle&, that he had aged to the bell of his judgment for the interefts of the Country, a n d would continue to do to as long as he held a place in the Councils of the Nation. Lord PELHAM withed not to trefpa •s on the at tention of the Houle at fo late an hour, by fol lowing the Noble Lord who fpoke laft but one through the whole detail of his fpeech, the fubjed of which already had been fo fully and fo ably ditcuffed : he thould confine himfelf merely to a few points. The Noble Lord had laid great ftrefs upon an affertion which he had made, that the let dement of Cochin had been furrendered, by a pri. vate treaty, from Holland to France. He would , not pretend to fay the Noble Lord had no good authority for his affertion; but he would offal, that Wroth an event had taken place, his Majefty's nitters had no intimation of the circumtlance.— The Noble Lord and his Friends had declared, that in the whole of their fpeeches on this topic, they were aduated by no with of removing from their tituations his Majefty's prefent Minitters ;.but if fuch was the fad, the Noble Lord and his I Friends not only purfued a conduit extremely op polite to their proftffions, hot fell far thort of that duty to their Country, which the tenor and purport of their fpeeches demanded ; for if they really thought his Majetly's prefent Minillers fo wholly unworthy of confidence, the Country had a right to expect they would go farther than mere fpeeches, and move an Addrefs for the removal of thole Minifters. At leaft, were he to change places with the Noble Lord, and to hold that opi nion of the Noble Lord, which he proCeffed to hold of himfelf and his colleagues, whatever might be his private refped for the Noble Lprd and his Friends, he fnould feel it his duty to move an Ad drefs to his Majefty for their removal. The Noble Lord had aliened, that any man who would inter pofe to prevent the return of a Right Hon. Gen tleman (who was at the head of the late Admini ftration) to office, in the prefent critical fituation of affairs, would be guilty of a crime againft the profperity and eziftence of his Country. For his own part he would fay, that the circumtlancesunder which he accepted of office, upon the recedence of that Right Hon. Perfon, was no !Woof that he withed to fupplant him. Office he never coveted. He affirmed it with no other view than for the fer vice of his Country, in a critical and awful period. So long as he filled the fituation he had the honour to hold, he •thould all to the belt of his judgment for the honour and intereft of the Empire. But he should not defire.to hold his fituation a moment longer than the Country thought him deferving the confidence attached-tnit. With raped to the quellion before the HOufe, it was merely, whether or not the firft Bill of the Supply voted by another Houfe of Parliament, timid p 4 ? and the argu ments againft it were, that his Majefty's prefent Minifters were not worthy of being entrufted with that Supply, which they were likely-to abufe. Bur as this was a perfonal charge 41iiinit himfelf and his Colleagues, he would decline entering into it, rather choofing to.reft the Wile upon the candour and judgment of the Houfe. Lord Min TO agreed in the charge againft Mini. tiers, that fufficient grounds had not been laid be fore Parliament to warrant their demand of the large fupplies they had claimed. There was one thing extremely myfterioos, upon which he con ceived the Houfe had a right to explicit informa tion—it fefpeded the affairs of Switzerland.— France had at firft menaced that country with military interference. His Majefty's Minifters con ceiving, no doubt, the honour of this country in tuited, thought fit to make a remonftrance to the French Government in behalfof Switzerland ; and what was the next confequence of which we heard? why that Switzerland, that unfortunate and nnof fending country, had been invaded, over-run by French armies, and dragooned into a complete fubjugation to the French power. Thus it was pretty obvious that the honour of this - country had been in force way compromifed. His Majefty's Minifters had thought fit to withhold from Parlia ment all communication upon this fubjed. How ever, he should feel it his duty to take the earlieft poet+ opportuhity, after the Chriftinas recefs, to bring forward a motion, the oiled of which would be, to obtain from his Majefty's Minifters the ne eefary explanation on the fubjed. The queftion was now put and carried in the affirmative ; and the Houfe in a Committee went thro' the Bill.—Ordered to be reported to-morrow., The Houfe, at half pall eleven o'clock, adjourned till to-morrow. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Read a third time the Navy Bills Bill, potted, and ordered to the Lords. Reported the Refoloams of the Committee of the Houle on the Importation of irllh Malt, and Exporting Britifh Seed Corn to Ireland, and Iriih Sugar Drawback Duties. Leave given to bring in Bills purfuant thereto. Read a fecund time the Bill for amending feveral Statotes re fpedting the woollen Mamufaenre. Committed for to-morrow. Lord YOU/MT* moved, that the Papers prefented to the Wide from the London Dock Company be printed. Ordered. Reported the Dublin Baking Bill. Ordered to be engrafted. Mr. VAIII4IT7AUT prefented a Bill for regulating the Draw back on &kith Linens tesported. Read the left thne, and or dered for the famed reading to-morroar, and to be printed. Went into a Committee upon the Expiring Laws. To be `reported to-mornile. The Huufe in a Committee of Sspsy. on the motion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, molted, that a Punt not envied logss,r6o4 cc 6d. be granted to His Majoßy, to make good the like fum iffued (rem the Tresfury by His Majeity's order.. In confequenee of Addreffet from this Houk, and not yet pro ... Ned by Parliament. To be reported to morrow. eld a fecund time, the Milt Militia Laws Confolldatlon Bill. Committed for Friday. A Mane was received from the Lomb, requiting die area , dance of this Houfe at the Bar of the Lords, to hear the R I Affent declared by Commifre to the Mlb Militia :sill. The Hoare attended accordingly. a • . • INILITik. •e- ' • ' • The SICRITARY at WAR obtervea, that the litia Law, which had 'paired in the laft Sellion, had been, in a very great degree eluded by perfons pro curing licences to preach ; he therefore moved for leave to bring in a Bill, to amend fo much of the faid Bill as would . go to remove that fpecies of evalion.—Leave given. Mr. SECRETARY at WAR again rofe to give no tice, that he fhould, immediately after the Recefs, bring forward a Bill for the Pay and Clothing of the Militia ; and on this ground he felt it neceffary to announce that Tome, confiderable 'alterations would be introduced in this Bill from the Bill of the laft Seffion ; and particularly, that with a view to perfect the difcipline of the netv levies, it would go to enaa, that the Militia be embodied twenty eight days in the year inftead of twenty. There was another point on this fubjeet, to which he thought it neceffary to call the attention of the Houle, as one to which he Mould think* proper I to apply a particular clattle in the bill. He under flood that Societies had been formed in feveral places, and efpecially in London and Weflminfter, for the purpoie of receiving fubfcriptions from perfons liable to ferve in the Militia, engaging to infure or guarantee them againft fervice, in the event of being chofen to ferve upon the ballot, by providing fubftitutes. He under Rood alto, that it was the intention of the perfons forming fuch focieties to extend their influence throughout the country, and receive infurances upon a fimilar en gagement. He was ready to admit that there were fume inilances wherein the interpofition of fuch focieties might be extremely defirable and ufetul, , particularly in thofe diaries where adual fervice in the Militia, would be peculiarly injurious to many of the inhabitants who might be ballotted to ferve. In London, W.- Aminder, and many of the great trading or manufadltiring towns, for in 'lance, where fubilittites mull be procured. But as be underftood it.was the intention of thofe fo cieties to extend their project over the whole coun try, he thought the fubjed particularly called for the vigilance of Parliament, on two grounds ; firft, *to take care to guard the poor men who I might be inciined to avail themfelves of the prop fals of thofe perfons, againft the poffibility of their projed being altogether a fwindling one; for, it was poffible that the agents of thofe perfons, after hav ing colledled fifteen or twenty Millings each, as an infurance premium from the majorityof poor work ing men in a diftrift, might abfcond, and the poor men afterwards drawn to terve could by no means plead the cireumflance to the Deputy Lieutenants as an exemption. The other ground was, that the project would militate, in a very ferious degree, againft the fpirit and objeet of the Militia Law; the purpofe of which was, that the men deftined to ferve fhould, as much as poffible, be raifed with in the County for which they were to ferve.; whereas, by the project he alluded to, the diaries were to be exempted, and the corps for the feveral Counties filled with the very dregs and outcafts of fociety, fent down from London ; and thus ren dered inefficient in the firft infiance.' Feeling, therefore, the importance of this confederation, he thought it neceffary to give the Houle a timely apprifal of his intention, MEDITERRANEAN TRADE* General GascolGNE rofe, he faid, for the pur pofe of putting a queftion to his Majefty's Mini fters, their anfwer to which, he hoped, would fave him the neceffity of moving for certain papers to inform the Houfe upon a matter of ferious im portance. The (*Won he wifhed to be folved was, whether it was the intention of his Majefty's Minifters to move for a renewal of the temporary ftatute for regulating the intercourfe between this country and Malta, which would expire on Tuef day next? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCH EVER faid, he was not aware, until a few minutes before he entered the Houfe, that the ftatute alluded to by the Hon. Member was fo near expiring • he thought it did not expire before the 28th. Not ',kiting had time to confider the circurnflance, he hoped it would ferve the purpofe of the Hon. Member to receive an anfwer to his queftion to-morrow, when he should be prepared to give it. NAVY REFORMS. Mr. Kismataa rote, and (in a maiden fpeech), alluding to the princi ples and objet of the Bill in its progrefs through the Houfe, for appoin ting Com miflionets to inveftigate the contraets of the navy, &c. he took notice ofa difference of opinion which accrued in the courfe of the debate on that fubjeit; an Hon. Admiral on the other fide of the Houfe alerting that the Admiralty and Navy Boards had already all the powers which this Bill propofed to confer, and an Hon. Gentleman connected with the Admiralty flatly denying the flatement, he thought it becoming the dignity of the Houfe to afcertain the fait, before they adopted this Bill, to which, however, he profeled himfelf friendly,— The necelary information could only be obtained from the patents of the Admiralty and Navy Boards. If they poleffed the powers defcribed in the Bill, it would of courfe be unnecelary, and ho did not think the Houfe fliould legiflate on common reports,or on thelaconic alertions of public officers, though that bad unfortunately become too much the praCtice of late; for a large naval and army eflablithment was voted upon the fame grounds on which a parifh vary would appoint a watchman, or a magiftrate would commit a thief to Bridewell, namely, common rumour or notoriety. If, how ever, the ablelt men had ineffectually refilled fueh conduit, it would anfwer very little pnrpofe in him to enter his proteit againft it, but he could not help' expreffing his hope that fuch conduit would not long be paned in. To the charader and proceedings of the preterit Ftrft Lord of the Admiralty ht was read to offer his warmeft tri bute of approbation. He bad fa a noble example of reform, by correiting abufes in the navy, that I bulwark of our tafety, that finew of our Strength. It were devoutly to be wifhed that the example of 'that gallant Officer fhould be generally followed in the (*her departments of the public fervice, and the approbation which Maiden teemed to give to lxis fyftem, ;afforded tome favourable omqra of their intentions. He (Mt. K. ) wonld aline them, that Oort.- for fiell,a fpirit of public reform would, ha was convinceelp operate more than an ) other rnea fure to attach public confidence !.) give.the people a.confidence in thcn.folv,es,,and to appal the ambitiOus calculir ions of ~ u r rival.— The Honourable Scmber concluded.v :th moving for an Addrefs to his Majetly, prAying tj,at copies of the patents of the Admiralty and Navy Boards fhoUld be laid before the Houfe. The ATTORNEY OENZRAL lIIOUght there could be no _great ohjedionto comply with the motion of the Hon. Member, by laying the patents bef , ,re the Houfe ; but he was at a lofs to conceive what pradical purpofe the Hon. Member propofed to anftver from the produdion of thofe documents.— If it thould appear, that the bill velicd powt. s in the Admiralty and Navy B.tards, of thetnCvel, to examine all abides, it might neverthelef , . obviou(ly neceffary to enable them to depute thofe powers to perfans under their authority ai.d direc tion, whereby their operation be tendered more prompt, general, and efficient ; an.i it it fhould appear the patents did not vest thole he prefumed the neceffity of granting them would not be dznied. Mr t KINNAIRD anfwered; that he by no Ite,ine objected to veiling any powers, which to the wit - - dm of Parliament 'heal feem nec.ilfar. , fie a piir pole fo laudable ; .ind which redoimce fn to the honour of his Majesty's a t and more particularly to the Noble Lord at the head , f the Admiralty. It was a put pofe which pre, 2rated one of the truelt omens of a vigitaur, and teco. nomical attention to that bulb. ark of . irt , :sh ftrength—the Navy; and. was calcufited to gibe new confidence to the public in the Adminiitrati.a of that Department. But, neverthelefs, he thought it the duty of thole who brought. forward' the b;11, to state to the Houle fuck fadt as contlituted the belt evidence in their power, to r...)ve its neceflity. Mr. STURGIS thought the Patent -eght to be produced ; but thought alit. the Hon. :A..mber who made the motion, need be . nnder no anitre. henfion of finding in thole Patents any fuck cz traordiaary and unprecedented powers as thole fought to be conveyed by the Bill. Powers which would enable a Commiflioner of the Navy or Ad. miralty Boards, to examine, upon oath, not only any Contrador for the Navy, touching any hull nefs or tranfadion which (hall have taken place between him and the Admiralty for the Public Ser4ice ; but to examine in like manner the agents, heirs, executors, and adminihrators of finch Contractor. Such powers were not only extraor dinary and unprecedented, but againft the (pmt of our Laws • and natural operation of conf err i n g them mudhe, to render all men extremely back.: ward at forming Contra is for the Navy Service ; under which they would fubjed not only them felves, but their pofterity to sut u re times, to the molt vexatious and embarraffing invelligations. Capt. MARKHAM thought the poWers which the . Bill would inveft, abfolutely necelfary to render it effectual ; for without them it would be utterly nu. gatory. For how was it poffible the perfonal att en. tions of the Board could be extended to all the quarters where abufe exilled? How wet e invehiga , tions to be carried on, unlefs the Commiflioners of the Boards were vetted with fufficient powers for enquiry ? .efpecially when it was propofed to ex tend the jurildktion of the Admiralty to perfone in every department connected with Navy fervice. In order to give the Houl e fam e idea o f the kind of frauds and collufions which have recently taken place, he would Rate one, which was compara tively flight and trivial to others which he might adduce. He fhould Rate no names ; but there was one tranfadion, under the head of Cooper age, where a Contrador had charged for calks; to be filled with clay,for force purpofe in all - thing the formation of cables, an item of 10201. (he was corrected by an Hon. Member near him, who Paid the charge was 12601.) but upon due inveltiga tion, the true value of the bufinefs done, was but 371.! ! ! A fraud fo palpable, excited in the Com miffioners a with for further invelligation into the accounts of this man, whole tranfadions with the Navy, for fame three or four years back, were to a very large amount ; but when called on to pro• duce his books and papers, he laid he had none ; and therefore let further detedion at defiance.-- This was one, merely trivial circumtlance, amongft numberlefs others of a fimilar defcription, which called loudly for the Bill before the Houfe. Mr. SHERIDAN obferved, that as it was pretty clearly acknowledged by Gentlemen on the op polite fide of the Houfe, that the document mov ed for could produce neither harm nor good, be could not underhand on what ground the motion of the Hon. Member was to be refilled. The Hon. Member who fpoke laft had gone into a flatement of fads, certainly not relevant to the motion, but which might be very well adduced in a Committee on the Bill. He therefore had travelled a little out of his reckoning in hating it now. However, it was pretty clear, that if the Patents of the Ad miralty or Navy Boards did not convey the full powers neceffary to deted and heck loch flagiti• ous frauds, it was abfolutely reqhilite filch powers fhould be granted them; and, notvt\ithilandi ug t h e delicacy avowed by an Hon. and LlParned Mem ber near him (Mr. Sturges) for the reßole of Cen traCtors, as it was impoffible to enforke the evi dence of thole Gentlemen againß themtelves, the leati the country could claim would be the benefit of teftimony from their Clerks, Agents, and thole with whom they tranladed bulinefs. Mr. COURT/NAY taw no objection either to the produdion of the Patents, or the powers vetted by the,Bill, in order to enable - the Admiralty to give fame effectual check to a fyitem of fraud fon p o a t r o t: riot's, as that which ex it e d i n t h e Navy be par An Hon. Member- has given an initance of fraud in the Cooperage Contract to the amount of t aool.; but this was a mere milk-feore compared with frauds which had come officially under his own notice in the Ordnance Department, both when tinier the direction of a Noble Marquis (Townf. bend) and the Noble Duke ( Iticbmond), who foe eeeded him. Then a Contra ding C. . Fhatirent inhisharrels,and by collufkin with p . fenalsgotthembackagairet and in like manner to gLfixth .„,. - . 41 011 1 f; • - I i