Star. — London, England, 1805-03-22 00:00:00

I to .le out 70,000 will leave filch :..1 the oftceee are par. tial to.. But however the Volunteers may be felefted it will be impoffible to do it fo as not to leave, in the one cafer ,the regiments fuch as fhall.be fit for •the Militia, and, in the other, not to obtain an augmen tation Inch as to be ufeful to the army. " The mode of Fairing the 17,000 men, I propofe Mould be, that having fixed the quota for the coun ties, orders (hall be ant to the commanding officer of each regiment, to let apait; at his own difcretion, withont the intervention .of;regUlar officers, fuch a number as he (ball think fit; and. if the number amount to four.fifths, the quota, to be difcharged from all further contribution. " Now it is unneceffary to Rate, that this meafure has been deviled wish a view to confult the feelings of the Militia officers ; for that it has is evident, from its being framed to avoid the intervention of regular officers. Suppoting that not alths are obtained by • :he above "procefs, the officer is then to let apart half the quota of his regiment ; or if it coat& of a great er number then its quota, the furplus to be appor tioned to the refl?eftive Cervices by ballot. To ex emplify this, fuppofe a regiment, confining of tOOO men by its quota, in other words, whole full comple ment is woo, reduced to 750 effeftive men. the offi cer is hill to fet apart Soo which cannot be touched, and the proportion into the line will be taken from the remainder. Taking 68,000, the half is 34,000, out of s i,OOO, that, with corporals, is the permanent force of the Militia ; and out of all that, what we want to raife, is a force of r 7,0c0. If 4.sths are ob tained, the ad part will not be touched. " In Rating this it will be feen, whether the mode I propofed is fuch as does not confult the various in wens and feelings of all concerned. lam lure I have wiftled to do fo ; and am ready to linen, with the utmoll difpofition, to adopt, if praBicable, fuch alterations of the fyftem I have annouced, as will belt conduce to general efficacy. 6' I am not aware, Sir, that it is neeeffary, in the prefent fituatlon of this fuhjeet, to enter further into an expoftlion of my views. I will only fay, that when I (hall have introduced my bill, I 'hall be ea gerly anxious to maintain, in every nage of it, what' I have avowed this night : that 1 (hall confdk the feelings and even the prejudices of a defcription of Gentlemen who are, indeed, valuable, who are bene faftors of the Rate, and rank high among the guar dians of our liberties. Nor do I fear that their fop port will he in any very material degree withheld from a Bill that is propofed to embrace and ac accompli(h objets of the molt folid advantage to the country. 6' Having Paid this, Sir, I know not that I have any thing to add further, than to move you " That leave be given to bring in a Bill for allowing a certain Proportion of the Militia to Witt into the Regular Faces of Great Britain." Lord TEMPLE, hefore he erpreffed his fenti. ments on the fubjeft. wifhed to enquire of the Right Hon. Gentleman, whether any order had as yet been given by Government to facilitate the receiving men as Volunteers from the Militia into the Regu lar Army. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER had not heard of any fuch order as that alluded to by the Noble Lord. Lord TEMPLE raid, that in offering to the Houle his remarks on what bad fallen from the Rightilion. Gentleman, as well as on the particular merits of the meafure in queftion, he would confine himfelf to Come fats that came under his own obfervation.— He fuppofed the prefent meafure was to be confi• dered as the. offspring of another which palled through the Houfe laft - Seffion. and (prang from the fame prolific fource ; he meant the Defence At, which was promifed to effeft fuch mighty feats, and of which this was defigned to be an improvement. When that meafure was propofed to the Houfe, the Right Honourable Gentleman expreffed his intention to reduce the number of the ?Alicia and engraft a certain proportion of them into the Regular Ar my. Their number was to be gradually leffened to 40,000, according as death or other calbalities interfered to produce that effeft. The Right Honourable Gentleman finding that his Bill did not produce thefe mighty effeits which he promifed himfelf, and held one to the expectations of the country, had taken this moll fingular method of in. culpating himfelf, and attaching blame to his own meafure. He was formerly counting the days and hours, and fed himfelf and the Houfe with the hopes of eftablifhing a great military force in the country. The Right Hon. Gentleman felt fully confident that he fhould, by hit boated meafure, be able, not only to repel the invafion of a foreign enemy, but to hurl deftruftion back upon their heads. Such was the promifes he held out to the country. But what had been the effet of that wonderful Ael ? The Right Hon. Gentleman was deaf to all the reafoning urged againft the efficiency of it, and refilled every attempt to point out the obftacles that lay in the way of its operation ; and he now propofed this plan, with a view to get over the difficulties of the preceding one. It would certainly be recollefted, that the great defign of the Defence At was to abolilh entirely the. praftice of railing men by ballot, at haft it threw that eonftitutional practice at luck sgrass diftaace, as to render it but trifling and assgaitsty. Fcrhaps we were all agreed as to the eligibility of tip the Regular Army oat of thelitilitia by voluntary fervice ; but there would be a difference of opinion upon the wifdnm or equity of (acrificing a favouilte and confti t ut ional force, to anfwer the pur pores of this Bill. He would fay a few words relative to the Gate of the Militia during die lag war, and the promifes made to diem previous to their expeditiot to H. , lland. Prior to that event, Come promifes were held out with a view to encourage the Militia to vo lunteer their Cervices on that expedition, and fosse al teration was propofed in their conftitistion and terms of fervice. Under the Adminiftration that fucceeded, the promife was made good, and a Bill was intro duced into another Houfe for regulating Che f Militia, reducing them to 60.0c0 men. The two overn ments had fince united ; and, although it was reported that there were lonic points on which they had con fidcrable differences, yet on this point they feemed pcifelly to agree. The hit Government held out large pumices to encourage the Militia. There never was a moment when the ardour of the Militia was more dwelt *upon, and their readinefs to volunteer into regiments of the lines but what the Right Hon. Gentleman gloried fo mach in commending, was made to recoil with peculiar force upon himfelf, and formed a very (COWS charge Willa his Admini" Rration, He meant to eiprets limtelf in the molt ftrentions manner againfi the condnft of Government, ; When he Rated, upon- evidence which he was ready to produce before the Boole, of their having given or der: to nuottrau's recruiting parties to rendezvous where the, regiments of Militia are quartered, with a view to ir.ducc the men to volunteer into the line ; And he hid undoubted authority for-Rating, that a recruiting party from the IR battalion of the Ift re- • giment of Goat ds bad attually taken down the names of thofe who were likely to volunteer into the line. The method that was taken to promote thofe ends was the moll fcandalous and flagitious that could difgrace any caufe ; for they thought their purpofes could not be fo eafily accomplithed without feducing the regiment into every aft of debauchery and infu bordination. in vain did their Officers remonftrate againft thefe praftices of the recruiting ferjeants, who were alwiys at hand to receive thofe who were ready to defert their own banners. By loch means the re giments had been thinned, and the Officers injured in honour and reputation, while their men were crimp ed by a fet of people, tupported, and fent on the ex prefs purpofe by Government. To fhield the men from the confequences refulting from their infubor dination, and to complete the difgrace of the regi ments, orders had been fent to Courts-Martial, to refpee thefe men, and put on a tendernefe of condue towards them, which amounted to a participation of their crimes. After the repeated afturances that had been given and broken upon this fubjeft, what pledge had become necelTary for our fecnrity, it became the country to determine. At the expeditious rate at which we were now travelling, what fecurity bad we that we &mild not fpeedily be called upon by the Right Hon. Gentleman to reduce our Militia to zo,ooo men, provided he fhould think fuch a Inca lure necettary It was expedient that Tome dillinEt pledge lhould be even to the country upcn the fub jeft. The Right Hon. Gentleman's aril propofition was, that our regiments thould be reduced nearly one-half, fuppofe from 900 to 600, by the propoted method of volunteering into the line, which was to be done without the concurrence, and doubtlefs againft the inclination, as it mutt ailed the honour of the Officers. Here the Noble Lord was entering upon particulars which tranfpired out of the Houle, when he wastall ed to order by The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, who obferved, that the Noble Lord did not ad con tinent with the rules of order and decorum in refer ring to matters of private communication, which, though he might rarely difcufs without the doors of the Houfe, yet did not come within the order of the prefent debate; and he would fttbmit to the Hoare the felicity of the mode of reafoning, on the regula rity of proceeding in the Noble Lord. The SPEAKER obrerved, that it was diforderly in the Noble Lord to go into the difcuffion of a quer tion that was not before the Houk. Lord TEMPLE reformed. He conceived the pro pofition of the Right Hon. Gentleman which he had alluded to, was made at the time of the expedition to Holland. But the propofition, as it was now put in pra&ice by the Right Hon. Gentleman, was not only to encourage volunteering from the Militia into the Line, but to - hire and Inborn recruiting Ser . leants, tint to promote debauchery and infubordination in the regiments, and then to crimp a certain number of men, as belt fuited their purpofe, leaving the re mainder to the care of their officers, who would have the/gait/a/Nor of (icing returned them, out of half the number of their regiment, igo of the mere refute l The Noble Lord concluded his rpeech by recapitulat ing his former arguments, and expreffing his firm and decided oppofition to the prefent meafure. Lord STANLEY exprelted his difapprobation of the Bill, on account of its injuftice in Co many diffe rent points ; it was fubverfive of the Conttitution of the Militia Regiments, and direftly contradiaory to the many pledges that had been given to the Hoare, particularly by the Right Hon. Gentleman (the Chan cellor of the Exchequer) himfelf. He had given this pledge, as many would recolleit, during a debate in 17 9 9, and again more recently on the Defence Aft. From feveral important confiderations, he molt give his decided negative to the Bill. The Marquis of DOUGLAS expreffed his difap. probation of the plan propofed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, which he confidered as tending ma terially to hurt the Militia fervice, and likewife to re tard the recruiting for the line. That an acceffion to our difpofable force was extremely defirous, he thought no perfon would be found to deny, confider. ing that quellion abftrattedly. But the prefent pro pofition ought to be viewed under the particular cit.- cumftances that attended it. If the Houfe called to mind the ufe made by Minifters of what difpofable force they had po ff effed, with what confidence could they place in their hands the addition now called for The Right Honourable Geatkman had (fated the difficulty of getting officers. Did not this proceed from the fault of - Government, which had broken faith with the Militia, and had placed them in their prefent degraded fituation t Were not this the cafe, abundance of Gentlemen would be found ready to some forward and officer the different regiments ; but the deceptions praftifed upon them prevented it. At oee *he the fear of invafion was raifed, at ano ther the aeceffity of &miss ferric*. When the Right Honourable Gentleman &mild fubmit his new plan for the further degradation of the Militia, he &mild, both from his feelings and from every other confi. deration of the Tuition, give it his hearty oppofition. It was held out that there men were to be procured for the regular fervice on cheap terms ; but indivi duals had paid the expence ; and, after all, with bounty. and the gratiftcatioas of the ale-houfe, he redly believed that the colt of a recruit wouldamount to more for the regular army, than by the ordinary mode of recruiting that part of the public force. Colonel CALCRAFT raid, he Ihould refervt the fuller delivery of his fentiments till a future occafion prefented itfelf. He waked, however, to know,whe then the men were to be enlifted for life, and for un limited fervice. He was likewife not perfectly clear in his underltaading of what fell from the Chancel lor of the Exchequer refpetting the number of four fifths of the recruits being made up from the Militia regiments. Sir JAMES PULTENEY thought it could hardly be neceffary for any perfon to ark for any particular reafons being given for the propofed meafure, which was merely a proportion, that, if carried into effe& went to make the men mare Aral to the country than their prefent mode of ferviee could poiribly render them. Under the various limitations and re nditions that were [mplied, he could not perceive that any injury would be fußained by the Militia Ser vice in general. On the contrary, he was led to think, that though the Battalions were lefs in num ber, they would, from the provillons of this meafure, be made more effedual in point of flrengih, and con •fequently more ufeful. A great part of the fafety of the country he confidered to have been owing to the Reps taken with refped to the Militia, in the year 1799, during the Let war. Upon the whole view of the fubjeft, he was convinced that the plan propored deferved to he fopported. Colonel BASTARD took notice of the three rea fons alledged for the introdudion of this extraordi nary meafure; namely, the want of men for the re gular army, the fcarcity of officers. for the Militia, and the Rated ardour of the men belonging to the Militia to volunteer for the regular army. Now, as to the firfl, he conceived it to proceed *from the inef ficiency of the meafure adopted at the inflance of the prefent Miniflers, for the augmentation of our regu lar army: and the fecond, he thought it a very na tural refult of that fyßem of tampering with the Mi litia, which had obtained of late years, particularly under the aufpices of the Right Hun. Mover of the propofition before the Houfe. If that tampering, of which this propofition was a part, had not exided ; if men were not thus feduced from the Militia after they were fully trained, officers would not be want ing for that body. But the fart was, that the country Gentlemen were fickened and difgufted with the Mi litia in confequence of the pradice alluded to. As to the third allegation, that many of the Militia were ready to volunteer into the line ; the manner which teemed to have been taken to afcertain, or rather to excite that difpofition, had been already Rated, and animadverted upon with proper feverity by a Noble Lord (Temple). To what that Noble Lord had Rated he fhould only Cay, that it appeared to him ab folutely nothing lefs than an endeavour to excite a fpirit of mutiny among the Militia, to render them difcontented with the force in which they were engag ed, and to which they were fworn : Fledere 6 nequeo Superes, Athcronta mouth°. Miniflers teemed rcfolved to flop at no expedientq— to refpeet no boundary, however venerable—no in ftitution, however Itcrcd, to attain an (Ned which they promifed when they difplaced their prede ceirors, to accompliffi without delay or difficulty. —The Honourable Gentleman complimented the late economical and conftitutional MiniStry, for de clining to lay a facrilegious hand on the militia, and declared that he Should rather fee the militia fyttem diffolved altogether than thus mutilated and frittered away. He conjured the Houfe not to give way to filch Bills as the Right Honourable Gentle man who propofed the motion was in the habit of bringing forward, for he could tell them fuch a. f tct with refpett to a Jury which was impannelled to ad. judge compenfation between the Crown and an indi vidual under one of thofe Bills—[ The Honourable Member was proceeding to date this fact, when he was called to order, and the Speaker informed him that he was travelling from the queltion before the Houle.]—He infifted that the Militia was entitled to the peculiar patronage of Parliament and the country, as the bell calculated force to refill foreign iuvafion, to reprefs internal diforder, and to form a conftitu tional check on a hired army. Mr. FULLER was furprifed that any Gentleman could attempt to thwart the willies of thofe brave men belonging to the Militia, who manifefted a dif pofition to ferve their country more effeetually, by vo. lunteering for the Regular Army. To give full ef fell to fuch a difpolition was the objea of this Bill, and therefore he would fupport it. With refpeft to the Militia fyttem itfelf, he thought it to have much degenerated from the principle of its original eftablifh ment, and be on that account approved of its reduc lion. He confidered as tidiculous the language tiled with regard to the dangers of our fituatton. With fueh a force as we had, he contended that we bad no thins to fear. With soo,ooo men in arms, and a high fpirtted people, there was only one thing wanted, and that was, that the Honourable Gentleman on the othef fide (Mr. Fox) Should take his feat with the Right Hon. propofer of this motion, to enable us to bid defiance, to overwhelm all the dangers that me naced us. (Loud dem.) Thofe two great men united, we Should Coon extinguifh the power that threatened to annoy us—we Should foon deftroy the veffels on the other fide of the water—(a /augb)—we Should fpeedily clip the wings of the bantam Emperor that commands them.—( A loud hiugh.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXC HEUER, in reply to the Honourable Gentleman ( Mr. Calcraft) Slated, that it was propofed by the meafure he meant to bring forward, to leave, in the firs inftance, the fe leftion of the men who Should volunteer, entirely at the difcretion of the Commanding Officers of the Militia, without prefcribing to them any form of pro ceeding or reftriftions whatever ; unlefs tome of ob vious neceffity, as to the five, age, and health of men; or allowing the interference of regular recruiting of ficers ; and, that when any battalion Should offer four•fifths of the men required from fuch battalion, no further Step Should be taken, under this Aft, with refpea to that battalion ; that is, that the All Should have no further operation upon it. But if a batta lion Should not furnifh the complement Specified with. in a time to be limited, which would be propofed in the Cormnittee. namely, a week for inftance, that in Such cafe the Commanding Officer Should let apart one half of his regiment, from among whom the re gular recruiting officers fliould be at liberty to obtain the number required under this aft, if fo many Should volunteer for general Service. According to this re gulation, the officers would have the opportunity of retaining the prime men, and dots, after the propofed redultion, they would have in their regiments two thirds of prime men, which would be a much greater proportion, according to the Strength of Loch regi ments, than they now have. From this the Right Honourable Gentleman argued, that the pride of the officers of the Militia had no reafon to be diflurbed, as the means would Rill remain to them, by their own feleaions, to preferve the charaaer, appearance and difcipline of their refpeltive corps. The Right Hon. Gentleman then proceeded to remark oo the pledges which he was charged with hawing given on former occafions, not to interfere wi tie Militia ; but in the ft& inßance he begged to alb. whether It could be feviootly argued that the pledge of any man at any Mallet Should tie up she allthotit or parliament ?It was trintoubtedly in the power of any man by his pledge, to tie up himfelf, but with refped to the pledges alluded to, he could moR confidently fay, that he never was himfelf, nor did he know of any Mininry that ever was, a party to fuch pledges. He was aware that when a meafure of a fimilar nature was propofed on a former occa fion, it was alledged by thofe whd oppofed it, that the intention was to render Militia Officers mere drill ferjeants for the Army, and the Militia itfelf a mere paffage to the Line. Thole were ideas which he dir tinaly disclaimed, as he did another infinuation at the fame time from the fame quarter, that it was his inten tion, and that of thole who aged with him, to recur to the plan of volunteering from the Militia on every ordinary occalion. Although he difclaimed thofe things which were the exaggerated conclufions of Gentlemen on the other fide, he never gave any thing in the fhape of a pledge thatthe projed of volunteering from the Militia would not be retorted to upon any futureoccaft-n, however extraordinary. And what was tlasafe at prefent ?—Why, that Parliament, having alread7 decided that the Militia (hould be reduced to a cent, in number, and it being actually on its pac Cage to tha,oumber, it was now propofed merely to accelerate that reduCtion, and more quickly to ac coniplith the refolution of ParliaMent. A Noble Lord had afferted, that at the time the Defence Ad was propofed Taft Sellion, he propofed to " keep good faith with the Militia." This was a declara tion of which he certainly had not the flighteft recol leCtion, or one rather which he was quite pofitive he never could have made. Nor did he conceive how the occafion could have called for any fuch declara tion. In propofing the reduCtion of the Militia to ao,ooo men, the improbability of any projed of volunteering from that body for the Regular Army, when fo reduced, be might .have made ufe of as an argument to recommend his propofition; but he was quite certain that he never made any pledge upon the lubjcia, however Gentlemen might have mifunder flood him. With regard . to the Rater:lent of his No ble Relation, refpeeting the condun of a certain re cruiting party, in the operation of his candour and good nature; which feemed rather to forfake him in the warmth of his outfet, the Noble Lord was pleafed to acquit his Majefly's Milliners of being a party to fuch an irregularity. [Lord Temple nodded difrent.] Then timely, fald the Right Honourable Gentleman, the Noble Lord would not fairly confider Govern ment refponfible for the milconduCt of a recruiting party. If, however, recruiting parties, in their zeal for the fervice, did in towns where Militia Regiments are Rationed, behave in the manner Rated, and that fuels confequences were apprehended from their tampering, that was a Rrong argument for carryinginto operation as expeditioufly as poffible the Bill which it was the object of his motion to introduce ; for that certainly was the belt way to prevent fuch effects. That regu lar officers fhould he fent to the different quarters, to receive the men who lhould volunteer, Ceemed not only unexceptionable, but Jefired by the commanding officers of the Militia, for a Noble Lord (Stanley) had obferved that it was much to be waited, for the fake of difcipline, that fuch recruits thould be taken away from the quarters of the Militia as Coon as pollible. Some Gentlemen, the Right Honourable Gentleman obferved, (hewed a prodigious defire to defcribs every meafure as calculated to increafe the burthens upon land. But he hoped that the landed proprietors pof feffed too much fenfe, and were too anxious for thefor cefs of an arrangement, defigned for the defence of that land, to be influenced by fuch allegations. Indeed, if it were not for the authorities from which they came on this occafinn, they were too frivolous to be anfwered.. How could it be terioufly maintained, that the land owners ought to be difeontented ; or that their bur dens would be increafed, becanfe men, who had at fill engaged for limited fervice, were now ready to perform more than they originally promifed ; that up on receiving a bounty from the Rate they (bould Rand forward to ferve their country more effeaually than under their prefent engagement they were enabled to do ? There was one other point of which be fhould take notice in the obfervations of his Noble relation, although, indeed, the Noble Lord had rendered that almoft unneceffary, as he had anfwered it himfelf. This was with regard to the order for fufpending the Courts Martial, and its tendency to break down difcipline, as the Noble Lord afferted. But the No. ble Lord, himfelf, afterwards noted that this order, of the lithe of which he (Mr. Pitt) never heard be fore this night, was fent in confequence of the altera tion recently made in the Mutiny Bill, which altera tion made that order fair and neceffary. However, as that Bill was now palled, the fufpenlion would of courfe ceafc. The Noble Lord was enabled to go on with any trials that he withed, and bring them to a termination alto, before the Bill to which the mo tion before the Hotfe referred, could be carried into a law. Bat left it fhould be Cup fed that this Bill would have any tendency, as it feemed to be appre , headed, to encourage infuhordination, he had only to Rate that it was intended to make fpecial poet fion, that in cafe men, under a charge of mifcondu&, meant So be tried, or undettoing a trial, or under any fentence; fhould offer to volunteer for the line, Commanding Officers fhould be invefted with a power to refufe their difcharge. The Right Honourable Gentleman concluded with Rating that if his motion thould be agreed ro, it was his intention to bring in the Bill this night, move it to be read a firil time and printed, and fix the fecond reading for Tuefday next. Lord TEMPLE in explanation, reßated his for. user affertion, that the recruiting party he had al. luded to appeared to have had authority for their ir regularity, and therefore Government was refpna. , ble for them. As to the order refpe6ing Courts Martial, he laid that the order was not only for fuf pending Courts Martial, but to prevent the execution of fenter.ces, and the, holding any Courts Martial whatever, until further orders. Lord STANLEY explained. The Motion was weed to without a divifion. The Bill was then brought up by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and read a firfl time. On the queßion being put for the Bill to be printed, and to be read a fecund time on Tuefday next, Come obis" , tions were made to the precipitation with which this meafure was brought forward, by Lord Temple, Lord Douglas, Mr. Calcraft, and Sir John Newport; the latter laid, that if the Printers did not ufe more ex pedition in preparing this Bill than they devoted to the ordinary matters of the Houfk, the Members could tot be furuithed with it until a week, or perhaps tt , i ll rt I VI • I 1 . r i , I r I I ', 1 ', ' . . • • I 0 r • I 1 e r n I n f. c. at it Q d. id r- at to tp. od an to 1 dd )o, tat elf. mg I, wn 10. I ler, be. 1 :1111. • MU. , > 1 wet-, l of . go 1 to MO - into Bill pre. mly ,i ovi- ' loft, P tder line, iwer ' , able .tion g in time ! fday I for. I al. it ir•