Star. — London, England, 1824-06-11 00:00:00

z.---r ---r r-- MMUIMON . ‘•••••IOr , r•••••er. ,--- ..1 , 11TV marked, that had he made.any such proposition, he should have been accused of withing to divert the at tebtion of the Conirnissioners from the main object of their inquiry. Mr. PEEL had not opposed the continuation of the grant to this Institute on the score of any , dispute on acc ount of patronage— he had oppo t on other grounds. He entertained very great doubts about the public interference with education. But he disapproved of the principles of the regulations of this Institute, and of subscribers of £lOO being entitled to meddle with the establishment ; however, if Government gave any support to it, surely they had some right to know some thing about the management of the Institute. As to the inquiry, it would be useful ; but the time ought to be left to the Commissioners, instead of binding them down to proceed to such inquiry forthwith ; besides the Commission had been made out. Mr. S. RICE said, he was satisfied with the promise ; he only desired that inquiry should take place. He would, after the understanding that the Commissioners should inquire into the propriety of continuing the giant to the Belfast Institution, withdraw the amendment. The amendment was then withdrawn, and the Peti tion ordered to be printed. PETITIONS. Mr. GRENFELL presented a Petition from Fal mouth, praying for a revision of the proceedings against the late Mr. Smith. The Honourable Member took 1 this opportunity of expressing his decided censure of these, proceedings from beginning to end. He knew it • was the fashion to call all those persons who did not agree imar which was said by our Colonists, Methodists, Saints, - of - Enthusiasts; he must however be allowed to say, that he was none of these, yet he did not give cre dit to all the accounts which were forwarded to us frcra the Colonies. Sir I. COFFIN said, seeing was believing. He would advise the /Immutable Member for Penrhyn to go to the Colonies and convince himself—Theategro, if left to himself, was a happy creature:, but- . by introducing these new-fangled doctrines amoitg them they were ren dered unhappy, instead of comfortable. He could as sure his Honourable Friend, fat, sleek, and jolly as he ' was, that he could shew him hundreds cf slaves fatter and better-looking than he was—(A laugh). Mr. MANNING could not refrain from repeating the wish expressed by the gallant Admiral (Sir I. Coffin), namely, that the Honourable Member for Penillyn would take a voyage and be an eye-witness of the state of the slaves, and the treatment they received from their masters. He had himself been in the West Indies, but never saw any of those cruelties exercised towards the slaves of which so much was now said.—The Petition was then brought up, read, and ordered to be printed. Lord MILTON said, he held in his hand a Petition from a considerable number of the Catholics of Ireland. The prayer in which was somewhat different to that which these Petitions generally contained. The Peti tioners adverted to the severe Penal Codc formerly en forced against the Catholics, and they now asked to have the Orangemen disarmed and treated in the same man ner as they treated the Catholics a century ago. In this part of the prayer of the Petition he could not agree. He could not consider that the evils and disturbances of Ireland would be cured by punishing the Orange. men of the present day for the evils which their ances tits inflicted on the Catholics of former d tys. He thought quiet would he best resumed by burying all those things in oblivion. He should now move, that the Petition be brought up.—The Petition was read, and utdered to be printed. Sir N. COLTHURST presented a Petiticn from Cork, against the Warehousing Bill. Mr. HERRIES said, this Bill stood as one of the Or ders of the Day, and could be discussed when it came on. Mr. HUTCHINSON said, the Bill had created a great sensation in Cork and Dublin.—The Petition was then lead, and ordered to be printed. Mr.HUME presented a. Petition from the Ship- owners, &c. of King's Lynn, in Norfolk, against the Impressment of Seamen. This was an evil that should be allowed no longer to remain as a blot upon our Statute Book. Mr.C.HUTC HINSON thought the greatest hardship was, that after returning from a foreign station, the sea man was liable to be impressed.—The Petition was or dered to lie on the table, and to be printed. Mr. C. HUTCHINSON presented a Petition from the Catholics of the County and City of Cork, praying for Emancipation. Although the Petition was only signed by 500 Catholics, yet he could assure the House, that they were never more unanimous in desiring a re peal of the laws which oppress them. When he found the Catholics expressing and entertaining the warmest sentiments of loyalty, and when he found them enduring patiently degradation and oppression—when he found them performing every public and private duty, and when he considered the battles they had won, he could not conceive why the attention of Parliament had not been called by Ministers to their present situation. In a moment of profound peace, when the Stuart family was extinct, and the Pope without political power, he could find no reason or apology for the present remiss ness on this question. He felt with the Catholics, not withstanding all they gained during the late reign, there could be no security for them until all the disabilities attending them should be done away. If he thought there could be any danger to the State from advocating the Catholic Claims, he would be the first to withdraw his support front them. He wished Ministers to ask the Protestant Gentlemen now before the Committee on the state of Ireland, whether the Catholics were so disunited and powerless that they would not soon forte this great question upon the attention of Parliament? — He could tell the Secretary for Ireland that Great Britain would be placed in a situation of the utmost peril if a war should now break out, and we had an active enemy on-the other side of the water ready to invade Ireland. At the same time, if there should be any violence or intemperance on the part of any of the ! Catholics, he must greatly lament it, because he wall satisfied that none but the Catholics themselves could injure their cause; and yet it was but natural to expect that the Catholics should be in a considerable state of ir ritation when they found their claims so much neglected. Mr. BECHER supported the Petition, and cau tioned the House from confounding the great body of the Catholics with a small body wnich might, to indif ferent spectators, appear to act with violence and inju dicious intemperance. lie never could contemplate the conduct cf the people of Ireland without also imagining what would be the probable conduct of the people of England were they placed under similar disabilities. The empire would be shaken to its foundation.—The Petition was ordered to lie on the table, and be printed. RECOVEItY Olt SMALL DEBTS IN SCOTLAND. Lord A. HAMILTON moved for leave to bring in a Bill for the better recovery of Small Debts in Scotland. This was a measure desired by all the tradesmen in Scotland, who were obliged to give up part of their claims, in order to save the monstrous expense attend- , ing the prosecution of a claim for any sum above f. 5. He blamed the Government and the Lord Advocate for having neglected the repeated Reports of a Com mittee appointed ten years ago to inquire into the sub ject, all of which had been favourable to this measure d His object was, to have the Bill introduced and printed, for the perusal of Members, before the next Session. The LORD ADVOCATE was not disposed to op pose the bringing in the Bill, as it was not intended that it should be pressed upon the House during the present Session. To those who only looked to the recovery of small debts, this might be a desirable Bill ; but they must also look to the inducement it would hold out to poor tradesmen to give credit to poor people, and the evil of giving a power of decision without appeal, and of summary imprisonment. He found that three-fourths of the debtors in Scotland were imprisoned under the Small Debts Act. Besides the business of the Courts (now much more than they could well get through) would be doubled by the effects of this Bill. Mr. MAXWELL wished some measure to be adopted on this subject. Mr. HUME suggested, that sums to be recovered in the Small Debt Court should be extended to la and he wished that imprisonment for debt should be put an end to throughout the kingdom. He understood that the United States had abolished it; and in Canada there was no imprisonment for debt whatever. Lord A. HAMILTON replied, and leave was given to bring in the Bill. IMPREiShIENT 01P SEANIEV. Mi. HUME said, that in bringing forward his pro mised motion, he was fully sensible of its importance.' ' If the question were looked at fairly and properly, he was so: c they would not support the present system. No man more than himself wished to continue the glory and pre-eminence of our Navy, which was, as it should he, the great bulwaik of our defence. Ile wished not co l cripple our naval power : he wished to make it Avolun tary set vice, and not one of force and coercion. The naval service should be conducted like every other branch of service ; and it would he a most desirable ob ject to have the naval service voluntary, and not as it was, and still continued to be, a system of the grossest coercion, and tendering the service a heavy penance. In fact, such was the tyranny practised under the exist ing system, that people shunned it as a plague and a pestilence. Let the matter at all events go to a Committee, and if these it should be decided even that impressment should be continued (a decision which he did not anticipate), still some good would be effected by the fact of instituting inquiry. The practice of impress. ment had long prevailed, and though sanctioned by Act of Parliament, he still thought it unconstitutional. He knew that impressment was warranted by the com mon law of the land, but again he contended it was un constitutional. Although Mr. Justice Foster had argued so ably on the other side, that learned personage ad mitted thin he knew of no Statute permitting to the Crown the right of impressment, though it was sanc tioned by proscription or immemorial usage; such usage, all the time, not being contrary to the feelings of the people, or to public utility. The only Sta tute on the subject was that of Richard 11. which was fully answered by Baron Maseres, and it was an answer wotthy the perusal of every man feeling an interest in this very important subject. lle wished the House to see whether impressment were really useful. No class of individuals were mere praised than the Navy, and yet no class had their rights more sacrificed, or their feelings more outraged. Necessity had ever been the plea of tyrants in all countries for their oppressions; and, in this case, it was incumbent on those who supported an odious system, to chew that the necessity existed, and that it was an overwhelming one. He found we had volunteer fleets, and that of Adm. Blake was one so constituted. If in that case so much benefit had been derived to the country as history declared it to be, he saw no reason why it should not be followed in the present time of peace. lii 1739 some efforts were made to remedy the evils of impressment ; but the defenders of the system alleged that a time of war was not the time to alter it; but still no one folly justified it. All that could be said for it was, that it was necessary ; necessity was the only plea for is continuance. Subsequent attempts were made on the same subject, but vi ith no more success. The sth of Anne repealed the Act of 1696; but that repeal was extremely partial. Ile knew that recently the treatment towards sailors hal been improved, hut still desertion constantly took place. The Ho nourable Member proceeded to read some extracts from the pamphlet of Captain Marryatt, with a view to show ' the danger and the inefficacy of impressment. Impress ment provoked desertion, us was particularly exemplified in the case of the Newcastle, when in chase of the Ame rican frigate Constitution. Why, lie asked, did desertion so frequently take place? Did we not get Admirals and Captains without impressment ? And why not seamen? Simply for this reason ; that seamen were not well treated, and were not used as they ought to be. In the time of William 111. the pay of the sailer was nearly 21s. per month, and now they only received 325. whereas in other services they had nine, ten, and a dozen pounds per month. In Ametica there was no compul sion to enter the navy, and he saw no reason why the practice should not be followed here. If we came into contact with the Americans, we could not meet them on equal terms, while we had slaves and they had free men to fight their ships. America paid her seamen three times more than England, and paid them regularly too. The payment of the navy was a matter of great importance, which might be easily remedied. The next disadvantage to the sailor was the indefinite length of his service, and if the House did justice they would in terfere for the protection of the British seaman, as well as they did for the protection of the natives of Africa or the West Indies. In fact, he (Mr. Ilume) thought the situation of the Btitish seaman was worse than that of a galley slave. They were first torn from their home and friends, then ill-used, and on their return from a foreign station, in place of being allowed to visit their homes and friends, from whom they were so dragged, they were again sent to the East or West Indies.— Should not such a system be altered, or at all events inquired into? A system of compulsion was wrong cage, otNn tohii mtr y em a no n few d n de, wh e n oi orhen t e h . b they alrec Sailors. o : Hm ul ou d they wer e to n o o k et dealt v e every y w o i p t h p o a r- s in any way. Sailors were like birds let loose from a t m e e iri w en o d u l l y d , m as o k r , e w a hy im l i t r o e tf , and why use them differently front every other class of persons? The severity of punishment was the next dis advantage knew w as a under which twiemh impro v ed topic; v e the dh t s sailor o. thought h o nbj g ht lab oured. onr code oug ht This he of punishment in the Navy 0.111 e t m n ; s t o s d u e d e alteration,ct . Tli e system t a e n m d he called on his Majesty's Ministers to look to their white sloes—(llear)—he well as to the slaves in owner were prohibited from til the day after the offer shbuld the sailor be subject whim and caprice of the officer ? No man should he punished without a Court-martial, and m ithout same regulations as now prevailed in the Army. S:m ic of the most humane men in the Navy considered cor. poral punishment might be greatly diminished. Pu. nisliment to an excessive degree still took place, and no proper check was, as yet, put to it. He wi!s awar e that some Officers were tried fur cruelty, and that nart. Officer was superseded by Admiral Gore for exerciing unnecessary severity. Here the Honourable Membe r read a letter from an individual who had been pressed into the Lion, 64 gun% in 1806, and who wa, cartiel out to China, although his friends had found two sub. stitutes for him, who were also taken—Wear, hrar:) The Captain of the Lion had regular fl.ggarg day,, particularly Sundays ; two dozen lashes was the regular punishment ; even if a man had one dirty shirt in hi s chest, he was subject to the same punishment. Nn w if one particle of that statement was true, he insisted that inquiry was absolutely necessary. In the frigate Hermione, the crew killed their officers and canted her into a Sp a nish port, in consequence of the cruelty p:ac. tised upon them. Corporeal punishment he kn,r,v to be unpractised in several ships: in the BulA ark, fo; eighteen months, not one man was flogged ; in the Larne, the same thing occurred ; in the :Mentor, con. &nement superseded flogging : and he mentioned this _ to shew was not so necessary as some persons con. sidered it to be. No desertions took place from these ships, and why not extend the system generally ? Ile believed the Admiralty had, by the Quarterl y Reterils, done ei r n e . thing to check cruelty, hut nothing sufllch2arly effective was produced. There was now no difficalfy it: finding Captains, for they had many advantages: got he was fully of opinion that the men were ill-treated in the distribu tion of prize-money, as well as ;n the other heads he had just stated ; two-eighths of the prize-prone: only Was left to the whole crew. If a prize of the value of 1,000/. were taken, the Officer, that is to say, the Captain, would receive .570/. and 400 n.en, composing her crew, only 2501. Was not this a grievance? Where was the justice of such a distinction? Was not this, of ;toe:, enough to alienate their affections firm the service:-- Here was, first, compulsion by a press-gang, not col s • posed of the gentlest beini.,s in the WO: 1d; nest came unlimited service; then flo;.:ging a most extranrdinal y degree (though now modified to what it used to he)-- and to crown all, there must be superadded the i. j.is tree of the distribution of prize-money. Could any ho nest man say that such a system—a system under which such practices prevailed, should be continued, wit:root entering into the fullest inquiry for its necessity ? would ask how this country would oand, in the evesr hostilities with any of the Powers of Europe ? and ia this consideration America could not be left out. I: should not be forgotten that the American war, whica was produced alone by the question °limo, esstireat,cost this country 96 millions of money. This was not a subject to be treated lightly, and he felt assured thst there was no man who then heard him that would not soon be fully aware of the importance of it. — The present was the best time for inquiry into the efficacy of the system of impressment—it was a petiod of profound peace, and if it should be found to bs it was the proper time to overturn it. That it was h.;i was notorious, from the fact that our seamen fle.i t.) America, to Holland, indeed everywhere, to avoiS the danger of impressment. He repeated, that this was air important question, and was so considered by the cot; try. He would wish the House to look at the example set by America: there was in that country no impress ment; every man was a volunteer, and his period of service was limited. He was afraid that these details were tiresome to the House, but they were necessary, is order that the question should be thoroughly under stood—it was one of vital importance, when the conse quences of impressment were considered as they re garded America. Did the House know what the prac tice in France was? There men employed in the mer chant service, and fishermen, were exempted from all other service, and were only liable to be called on to man the navy in cases of emergency. There were never more than 150,000 men required -for the navy in this country, and he therefore could not think that there would be any difficulty in establishing a voluntary marine. He hoped that while the attention of the House was directed to the protection of the slaves and the brute creation, it should not be said that the British Parlia ment had refused to consider the sufferings of British seamen—(Fleur, hear, hear.) He was sort y to have &- tained the House so long ; but he was anxious to put it in full possession of his feelings on the subject—(Loral Cheers). The Hon. Gentleman concluded by moving, " That this House, being well aware of the difficulty of mannii , the navy in time of war, and of the evils arising from the forcibi s ! impressment of seamen for that purpose; and considering that a time of profound peace will best admit the fullest and fairest exami nation of that most important subject, will, early in the next Session, take the subject into consideration, with the view to such regula tions as may obviate these evils, consistent with the efficiency of the navy and the interests of the country." Mr. ROBERTSON seconded the motion, because he thought inquiry was a good thing; but he was by no means satisfied that such a Committee as the Honour able Gentlemen recommended would effect the pur poses which that Honourable Member seemed to alti cipate from it. For his own part, he was not sure ern there was not much less disposition to desertion in the navy than in the merchant service. He did not believe it possible to do without the impressment of seamen— (Hear, hear)—but being willing to see whether any thing, and what, could be done towards attaining the objects which the Honourable Gentleman had in view, Its would support the Resolution. Sir G. COCKBURN said, that he should have some difficulty in following the Honourable Member to: Aberdeen ; but he would confine himself to the vet' points—impressment, and the disciplined the pay'- The Honourable Member himself bad given tile Is't reason against the motion, for lie admitted that thy'" was no hope of remedying the system, and be (Sir Cockburn) therefore thought that the subject had lscs not have been agitated. 1-le was convinced that he spf the sentiments of every naval Officer in the coannv. when he said, that if it were possible to man the navy without impressment, it would be desirable. Every at tention had been given to the subject that it was capable of receiving, and no possible substitute could be L'c• vised fur it. Hard as it might appear, yet it was esta blished on le 6 al authority. When a man who had been impressed was brought before Lord Mansfield, On 3 nabeas corpu, after the matter had undergone th! dkcti>aion, that Learned Judge decided, that sh!' ticieat had not been shewir that the man was exempt front service by any statute, thereby plainly indicat- :,n ful. 'covet -4 thing they be re coma , or till that t "%VAS 4 The I cram ircqc and any d fie I• b:ttc and only slitiik disci that CApi :t SCI (alit (Pan t!iii Mils Fvo uln ail 1 Lain Car first had e:. thci 4M 1 COU ~~~ ~ ~~. it tad svh7te slare , :, t the West Indies. If the sl.:ve j a rom inflicting a single lash the fence charged, he a•ked wi;v TelSO r ect to three dozen lashes at the idle tt., 414 t, had called upon the House for a vete of confidence, in defiance to the o • ion of4hriNConittee. The only question w• l`the BilMftenlJel for by the state of Ireland. He looked on the Bill as a necessary evil, which was had recourse to in order to prevent a greater. Lord Carmelite , ' and Lord GORT said a few words in favour of the Bill. Read a third time and passed. IRISH Tan. The Earl of LIVERPOOL moved the second read ing of the Irish Tithe, Commutation Bill. The Bishop of LIMERICK supported the Measure," as it small tend to promote a spirit of harmony between , the Clergy and their parishioners. The Right Rev.' Prelate then entered into a statement of the character and service- of the Irish Church, and vindicated it from the charges that had sometimes been brought against it on the score of neglect affiluty and excessive revenue. The number of.non.resident Clergymen was certainly few. In his own diocresellerre was not one; and he iselreved that the Church Of Ireland would not suffer in drat point of view upon a comparison with the Church of England. The Irish Churdb hadbeen termed immoderately and preposterously rieh—(Hear, hear! from the Opposition).—The Irish Church had been termed omniv or. or s—( Hear, hear). —But he knew many Clergy men of high rank who were supported principally by their private fortunes. No accurate account of the re venue of the Church of Ireland had ever been obtained, because ho inquisitorial scrutiny had been employed. If Church property was exposed to unconstitutional. spoliation, it was time for lay property to look to itself. In Munster he did not believe there was a single Epis copal See that amounted to 5,0001. a year ; as to himself he should gain if his WAS fixed at 5,0001. a year ; and he had been informed by the Bishop of Ossory, that the re venue of his S.e did not exceed 3,..50a/. a-year. So much for the excessive emoluments of the Church of, Ireland. The Learned Prelate then proceeded to state' the care taken by the Irish Bishops, as to the qualifica tions of those whom they admitted to Holy Orders. None could be admitted that had not graduated at one of the three Universities of Dublin, Oxford, or Cam bridge. Ile next adverted to the number of absentees, and stated that the sums taken from the county of Lime rick by absentees was 300,0001. and from that of Kerry 150,0001. In many parts of the country a person might travel 20 miles without meeting with the house of a Gentleman, except the residence of the Clergyman. But he was aware that there were many classes of ab sentees; and for the mere Irish absentee there could be no excuses for he had no bowels of compassion. lie next proceeded to quote many instances of the zeal and humanity of the Parochial Clergy. In doing so he had n t only discharged a debt to the Clergy, but a duty to t e Public. In some parts of the country, where the p.ople were trampled upon by those who were but a very re ..v degrees above them, they always looked to the Clergy for tuccour and consolation. The Protestant' Clergy of Ireland were the most hospitable class in sco ciety. When he looked to the present state of Ireland, lie firmly believed more good would be done in the' crurse of the neat eight or ten Nears than there had been mischief for many centuries. The Right Reverend Pre late concluded by apologising fur the time he had in truded on their Lordships attention, and gave his support to the Bill. Lord KING observed, that the Learned Prelate had emitted nothing, in his speech except the first fruits a the li ish Church, and Sir liar cour t Lees. lle (Lord Kin t;) had thought the Leal ned Prelate had been de• se! if:wing the state of the Pt imitive Church. He thought the less was said about the Gish Church by its friends, it would be the better. Di. Paley had described that Church as a proud and domineering aristocracy. In that Church he saw an)thing but peace and good-will amona. men. If the Church of Ireland did its duty, the Catholics would not increase. The hail of LAUDERDALE said, that by the Ar ticles of the Union the security of the Church of Ireland was guaranteed. It was now apparent that some would be contented with nothing else than the destruction of the Church of Ireland. With respect to the present Bill, he believed none had given more satisfaction. The question was then put, and the motion for the second reading agreed to. The House then went into a Committee on the Bill, which was ordered to be reported to-morrow. On the question for the third reading of the Excise Oaths Bill, Lord HOLLAND addressed the House, and stated that Ire approved of the Bill as preferable to the ano malous mode hitherto adopted. He should move to leave out the word previously from the preamble and body of the Bill. The object of his amendment was to wake an Act of Indemnity unnecessary. The Earl of LIVERPOOL briefly stated the object of the Bill to be, to comprehend all Revenue Officers.—The Amendment was then negatived, and the Bill was passed.—Adjourned at Twelve. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Mr. Tauter took the oaths and his seat. The Dublin Equitable Loan Rill was read a third time and passed. The Thames and Medway Canal Bill was read a third time and passed. On the motion of Mr. W. S,erru, the Bill for a Tunnel under the thames from Wapping was read a third time and passed. Sir W. ROWLEY presented a Petition from liadleigh, Suffolk, praying fare revisioo of the sentence on Mr. Missionary Smith. Similar Petitions were presented from Rye, Holywell, &c.— Severally ordered to be printed. Colonel W ODEIIOUSE presented a Petition front certain Ma situates in Norfolk. praying for the removal of the Lent Assizes, mow held at Thetford, to Norwich. Ordered to be printed, after remarks from Mr. It. Counorr, Mr. W. Sums, and Mr. C. Ha, Colonel WOD !MOUSE gave notice, that, to-morrow, he should hove that this Petition be referred to a Select Committee. Mr. T. WILSON presented a Petition from Merchants, &e. of the Port of the City of London, against the Impressment of Sea men. Ile said be should be very happy if some plan could be de vised by which the present mode of impressing seamen could be superseded.—Petition ordered to be printed. Mr. GRA TTA N presented a Petition from Roman Catho lics of the City and County of Galway, in favour of the Roman Catholic Claims.—Ordered to be pruned. BELFAST INSTITUTE. A Petition was presented from the GOvernor and Members of the Belfast Institute, praying fur inquiry into their Institution, &c. Mr. HUME expressed astonishment that the Institu tion had been refused the countenance of Government. Mr. GOULBURN said, that it was established in a wealthy city, and that it had not been deemed to merit the support of the Government. Mr. A BERCROMBY, considering the state of Ire land, was astonished that the Government withheld its support front this Institution. The members were pm pared to meet any and every inquiry. Mr. S. RICE moved as an amendment, that an Ad dress be presented t.) his Majesty, playing that instruc tions be given to the Commissioners about to inquire into the charitable property of that country, to make early and special investigation into this Institution. Mr. GOULBURN opposed the amendment. He re-