Star. — London, England, 1805-05-14 00:00:00

, vvi-Fu sc79l PARLIAMENTiIR r PROCEEDIM,S. •! - 107SE OF COMMONS, MONDAY, MAY 11. • .1 Cern :al FITZPATRICK gave not:ce. that the motion of Lord 'H. Pei r,lative to offices in Scotland. held by Lord Melville, he quitted to the Houfe cn Friday heat. A Miff...,J was delivered from the Lords Rating, that on his own tequef Lord Harrowby had ohtained perrniP.ion to attend before the Committee of Naval Enquiry. On the fubjecl, of the 14tfiJge of thi , Houfe, rcquefting 'perrniftion for Lord Melville ro give evidence before the Committee, their Lordthips requeßeel an immediate conference with this Houfe in the Painted Chamber. A Committee Was immediately appointed to confer with their I.oi,lthips. and the refult of their deliberation was, that wa: it ompatible with the regular order of the proceedings of the UPprr !lode of Parliament, to permit one of its Member& to attend before a Committee of the other Houfe, after Refolutions of a feriou. nature had been paffeel againft him, the fubjeCt of which was immediately conueCted with that on which hi. atten darce wai required. Admiral MARKHAM gave notice, that on Wednefday lie Mould move for the Naval Papers, of which he had given a previ ous On the motion of Mr. ROSE, the Houfe, in a Committee, went through the Bill for regulating the office of Paytmalt r of the Forcea. Mr WI , STi.RN propored that all Gentlemen upon the Coln Committee thould have 70tes, tqlielt was agreed to. CATHOLIC 0,y1ISTION• The Order of the Day having been read for the Houfe taking into confederation the Petition of the Catholics of Ireland, the Petition WAS read to the Houle, on the motion of Mr. Fox. Mr. FOX then, being called upon by the Speaker, rote told spoke to the following, effea I ri'e, Sir, or. the prefent occafion, with to incoolidei able degree of anxiety, in bringing before the Houfe a meofure of fo much importance, and pregnant with fo many great and eventl ul confequences,dillant or immedia.e; in a degree, indeed, as to exceed in magnitude any mea fore which it ever has fallen to my lot to fubmit ti the confideration of PalliAmem. On the other hand, while. i am confeions of the importance of the talk, am confided becaufe the duty is agreeable. 1 cer tainly do fed, that alter the haraffing duty, of pref hug ino,6hie,, and cenforing malverfaiiimo which are wit oole diferarehil to individuals, eat allu to the country, it is Mire telaxation on entering upon a fuh• left, on which, far fool: exercifing the painful ofriee of an accider, I am called upon to plead the canie ludic.., of policy, and of v.-itliom—that I am call-A upon to ad vecate a nieatine, which, in ray opinion, mull fo eminently conhibute to the flrength and power ef this Emeire,withont taking from •nlitto :Any pi IS it, sir. advantage, or enjoyment, which an: reallmable man can believe i;e otig'.l each:lively to enjoy ; op 11 - :e c.ourary, the poffeffion of all which mutt ne doubly teemed to every dais by the cone Intmication. Such appear to be the natural etieas of thole meafures to which I have now the irtomor of drawing the attention of the Houle, and loiwevcr embarrailing.the queilion may be to lonic, and how ever don:oral it may e lx o; others, at feed it will be admitted, that the prinei l iles on which it i:, agitated, and • n which the conchifiims hey point are ',minded Iron, fentimetos of general good will ~o icon:- mon atieni That the queftion is one of :N• lira irnpor once .Fill not be &Med, when T Itate triereiy that the Petition which I tiov: opele for your con titivation does in fact inc hide the ciainis of at kali one filth in number of all his Majetty's Foot:peon futi le& ; that it comprehends the w ithes of be• weer three and four miliions of perfons. Happy I ant, however, as 1 have already hinted, that I do not mei; the claims of the Petitioners as bollile to the tights or enjoyn.ents ef others ; and if the Houfe upon due ex amMatiun of the claims of the Petitioners, thall ex tend to them that jullice which they appear to me to deferve, I than have been instrumental iu pet foi ming a let vice molt effential to the fecutity,. the gt camels and the nen...eal weal of the Empire. Upon matters In vatimis and extentive to thole to whom the Peti tion natm ally draws our attention, it may he difficult to ch ofe where to begin. The roll argument, how ever, which occurs to me. fprings from the numbers of thole who are interested in the fate of this Petition. Indeed, bad I not undo-flood that the fobjein had given i ile to doubts and debates, I lb oold have thought it impogible there could be a qmlliori o !te ther, neon generai principles. fo large a portion of his Majefl‘'s fajtit,. were etaitltd to an equal loose of political privilenes w wit their fellow-Citizens. Piolitips the gent:el Indy not be difputed, but it will be urged thee ;et: tieular circunillances may jial.ify an exception. Upou this point I ninft requea the :toe tion tit the Houle for t few minutes, vt4ich may he ufeful to clear our way before proceeding farther.- -What I am about to date may indeed teem to be matter of theory rasher than of pratliee. It may be thenht then, roar there may be come difference whether we date the claims of the Catholics as rights to be ;tekn wedged or in.Mlf,encesto be conferred. I believe, however, that as to the praEtii al conclu. lion, those will be little difference, and that in the theory the difference will be more in winds thin in reality. For my own part, I cenfefs lam pethaps more inclined to adhere to the form of fpeaking, which was more in fafhion al.not a century aten than now, and to fay broadlv, that I confider rights to power, to cemality of Jews of privileges, to be paramount, that they belong to a ll the m e mbers of -.lie State. At the fame time when 1 lay down the rnciple generally, I do not deny that the lupreme the file: may fometimes juitify excel). •ions to the rule. This fobjea has been confoitted by many able men in the clolet, and laid down by forne with more, by Come wilt leis, generality. Dr. Vaiey, a vet iter undoubtedly of great ability, though he Mclines to pot the theory difleiently in words from that form which uccors to me as preferable, hays of the cuiyinel right of Governn.ent, that it is "a tight to do whatever is nreelfary for the general weal."— But, on the other hand, it cannot be denied, that the re , ple have a right not to be rettrifted, unlefs where ren:ihions are neceffary on fome, for the general good of the wen therefore, will bring us to the fame •praaieal inclusion. I fay that men have a rielit to be free from unequal tea iricl• us; t, I do nut deny that unequal reltri&ions may, in tome c:rcr.mtt auces, be jullihable. It reito6lions are utioecelfary, they ought not to be couOuuz‘i utak ~ - , • • • . , , i , I. .. - . ..." i 3 • , •>. ' •' • ..dc " . '.. ,: . P: . • ,;:. ''' Y f - . • -.1 t: ' '• • . '.: 12 ._-_77. 7 : - ....". \ SA• TZ• , L ‘• 1 '•-• ' 't 1 : 1 • ~ ' V ,- 4 \ I I ^ '.. iik: App. , l ''.,_. l ' • ( 44 I -e4 f . Y i.,..1 . 1 i i. ,9' :'y, ' • iso . —:—..C_L__ V 1. PRICE MC-PENCE and the Catholics,rem4ined not merely deOitute of property, but in circumstances of degradation, that molt peculiarly marked that Orange and unnatural Rate of human fociety. Neverthiltrs, in a Govern ment like this, fo comp F cate d in its nature, and ing by fo many concur yen: operations at the fupport of liberty and ,gond adminiftration, it i% fo material that property and pt.wer fhould go hand in hand,and that there fhould in the want tf property be no cir- cumilance beyond the want of it, t;) give a_ pecuha thy of feature to the individual, it was neceifary to begin with laying a foundation, on which the farther extenfion of the rights of the Catholics thoirld be built. The firft objeCl, then, was to enable die Ca. tholics to acquire property, from doing which they were prohibited. This law was attended with the molt beneficial confequences. Not only a new int. pulfe was given to induiry, and a new mention to the produetive powers of wealth which already call ed, but a vaa additional macs of w-a!th was created in the hands of thole who had p•dlefred little or none before. The Catholic Body then began to atrime a new chat - atter. The line of demarcation between thole who had property and thole whn had not watt' thus gradually rendered lets marked: and Inc Catho. lies have not only advanced in wealrh, but have re covered much of that prr perry of which , by a , lverfe circumflances, they had log be ore been deprived. This latter point I ailode to par.iculArly, in cider to obviate an appreht• fl.n, that a conteilion f the Ca tholic claims would lead to a rtfuniption of all that property which is frcured by the A 8 a Settlement. This appears to be one f the . wildell alarms that Can be conceived. 13. it foripote the at:empt to give back all pall forteituts urge fllAltle what the conlequence ? Would it wt be to lirt) Cr their pro. perty thole Catholics wly, have ti ox lcir_d it ? Would it n.it be to 'hip that Cat!mlies ‘vb ate row rich and opulent, in t'avour of tiv)le who ate not —Solely there is little reason to ppithend OA the Catholics wonld cseit the power wi:h which they might he indtilgtd, to prndnce effetis by which they themfelves molt be tl c immediate and principal fufferers. The difabilities under which the Catholics labour, are of two forts. Incapacity to holti certain office., civil and military, and to fit in Parliament. Thofe who have been in the habit of elnfulting that odious chapter of our amine law, which, in the eyes of all enlightenel men . t hi me and abseacl, mutt ever Rand as the ulna queflionable parts of a political fyfiem, fo much admired on the whole, know well that the refit - aloes as to thole poin3 are of very different kinds. In fume of them the incapacitation differed by the individual operates as a limitation on the pre rogative of the Crown. The Crown is reitrained in its general power of appointirg to races by the law, which Pays that the Catholic lir.ell riot be appointed. —The objeft of the Tell Mt was to prevent Charles the Second from employing Catholics. And here let me (late an obfervation upon this point, which is rather whimfical, but at the fame time is very wrong and convincing. It will (hew very lit kingly the different views which our ancolors entertained from us in the nature of this fpecics of reftriftion. It is now contended, that one great reafon for exclud ing Catholics from the fervice of a Protestant King is analogy, and that as the King is a Protefiant, fit his fervants (hall be of the fame religion.—But when the difference of fats eti!ls, as it does among us, this analogical beauty and perfeftion of the con liitution is quite 1011. The realon, however, why our anceflors would not differ Charles 11. to employ Ca tholics was, becaule they had doubts whether he him f:lf was not a Catholic. This Was far more reafona ble than our view of the cafe. Had they been quite fatisfied of Charles 11. being a fincete Prot eflant, they might not have been fo averfe to lies empkying Ca tholics. But if the King was iuppoled to have a fecret leaning to the Catholic religion, he tr iglit be fufpeCied of bad motives in walling to employ perfons of the fame religion. But direly it is Ilrange that, at a time wlsen there can be no fulpicion (1 I Peak now general ly of the reigning Sovereign), that the King on the throne being a Roman Cath. , lic, his prerogative lhould be relerained as to the eirylo - , m:nt Cath.•lics, leariyi he is a Proteflant.—The Tetl AO, however, which was introduced in the reign t.f Charles 11. has received the approbation of many great well, and even of Mr. Locke himfelf, though it, perhaps, may be thought that his fentiments ptil;:ifhed in a political pamphlet, probably with Tome view to particular oc , cations, may not be deemed of authority e q; 33 l t o his more general dal' int. In the feccze,:ing reign, how , ever, James 11. wished to prucute the repeal of the felt Aft. But as James 11. was a Catholic, it was the prevailing opini it, that in all the circumlauces i of the cafe, to have repealed that Aet, would have committed to that Prince means which he was but too likely to employ againfl the liberties of the coun try. It was afterwards continued, even in the reign of King William, who was no friend to reilriaions of 'that fort, becaule the high Church Party, who had concurred with the fetticment at the Resolution, thought they had obtained a teem ity for the C h utch againll a body of men, by whom they were, or affcti ed to he, afraid, while the other party by a ~ort ref compromife acquiefccd, being afraid of the conk quences of the clamour which might have been railed, had the Ad been repealed. Thos the law continued not only to operate againte the Roman Catholics but againft other Difrenters horn the Church. The Teft Aft requires thole who undertake offices to do certain things—but how has it Len enforced in I-eland There it has with relPeCt to Protestants been in many points repealed. How has it applied to the Catholics? It has been given up as to many fubordinate offices, as to the military profetlion below a certain rank, as to the Bfr wholly, with the exception of a few lope, ior Oa times. After this review of the fituations from which the Catholics are excluded, the enemies of their claims then come and fay, Why direly you don't all exited to be Chancellors and Staff Officers, and therefore you have no reafon to complain that any one of you is. injured by the ezclufion." cold anti tuafeeliny ~~ TUESDAY, MAY i 4, iCos. is, in other words, men have a right to the enjoy ment of political privileges, when no neceffity, founded upon common good, exins for the depriva tion. Some would ay, therefore, We are willing to grant this or that, on confiderations of policy." I would fay, grant it as a matter of right. It will be found, however, that there is really no great differ ence between us in the end; becaufe it is in the one cafe allowing the right to hold, where no fufficient ground of exception eras. In the other it is con ceding that which no danger prevents from grant ing. I was dein ous of faying thefe few words upon this cubjed, becaufe, in all probability, this difcuf (ion will not be only the quaint; of a day, but m.ty be frequently under our confederation. It is to be wilted, therefore, that 'we timid underhand each other, and not difpute about the form of enunciating certain propofitions which, however put, lead t he to . . . fame pr a ct i cal concluflon. The application of there confiderations to the Catholic queltion then obvinuf ly is. that they, the Catholics, have a eight tit equal political principles with others, when the exercife ofl thofe principles would not be dangerous to the Sire at large. In this application, I may think that no thing but neteflity can julfify the departure from the general principles ; others may be contented with expediency, or a much lets urgent and vilible ne c. flity. But, I flatter myfelf that, as we proceed, it will be found (nisei-flint's to difinote about nice fhades of diflinflion, about the degrees of acefllty or of expediency, and that we than find that the pri- vation of political privil.ges to which the Catholics are condemned, is %Omits tinjuilified by any circtim- I flint - es that ought to call f‘u. the denial of the right, or the tefulal (If the indidgr nce. I fay, then, that the Catholics have an equal tight with other fubjefts to a p.:rticipation of political privileges, but we know tha! Government has thrlityhi proper to curtail that. plivileges. Wilethet the penal law , .izaitrit the Ca tholics were of igitully juttitiable ~r - .4. it is not at all nee, ir..t yto enquire. It is proper, however, to I attend a li tie to 'he time and manner of the reltrie tion• ;mooted 'moo them. No man, I believe, will hazard any thing to exit. ,or ai to maintain coat thr. laws aainll the Catholics are, at all event,, now good by pt - efcriastion. Prefcrip..ion indeed may, and dac., form an undoubted title to property, and tot the hell reafim , ; but prefcription cannot apply !fi laws by v.h.ch boffins of men are reftrained. In Eta, fuck relltiflums are founded upon particular cireumli anus, they are made on particular occafions, and it would he a folecifm of the groffelt kind to fay, that pre cripti , nt made thole laws good univerfally, high could only he good in the pe-:trliar circum- Ilaoces (.1 the cafe. It may be precipitate, no doubt; to c that the uecellity which •jaltitied the de viation gime, but it would be mmttlrotis to atTome 1 a pre:ription for that which is only jult, becade, it is an es.certion founded upon fpeci6c neceflity. ttt th: in;tance blot e us, indeed, it will hardly be til.nit;ht that the, e has been any precipitation in de flating the ce:fation of the neceffity. On the con trary, the neceffity feems to have been fo long admit ted. and the refiriaions fo long continued, that the difficulty is to reftore with fafety, to the full enioy ment cf political rights, perfons thus deprived of the tile of than. It ought to be kept carefully in view, that almoft all the t:iiriei , rs impofed on the Catholics were itn of,:ed tom prlitical. not from religious motives.— P,,fii!rly enough, indeed, fome who concurred in im p. ling !bore retttieions, may have ntiy.ed religions feelings with political realons, though the latter were toe only juttiliable grounds on which the rent ietions were founded. To go very far back ; it was not reli gious tqntry that induced Queen Elizabeth to impofe thole fevere penalties and rettraints upon the Catho lics, of which her reign fet the example. The re lie,ione fentiment, of that Princefs witre not perhaps to different from the &Chines of the Catholics as ' forte may imagine ; but during the courfe of a long r-igit of i pen war, or relllefs and unquiet peace, Qteen Elizabeth was engaged in traniattions of toe . ni*:,:rell importance with the other powers of Europe, nianaoe:l by her with fuch courage, prudence, and .lesierity, a, have tendered her reign one of the moll 1 g 1 ,, 1 ion in otir history. But in her relationswithother (bites ' ko partictOlv alp! King of Spain, and during the I prevalence of the 'Catholic league in France, her Ca ' tholic lobjees wet c luppoted to be fo doubtfully affec ted, or inci,ned to co-operate with her external ' enemies, that they were coerced and retrained, not from relig; , •iis hut political confiderations.— ! They were dcr_nit..l ditloyal fubjees and enemies to 1 Elizaleth's r.cricn and Government, and for that realon they expetk:reed harth treatment from her i G„veriiment. Dot in the reigns which followed, t airiott innumerable unjust, vigorous, and cruel i pillial laws, there were few rettrieicns and difabi lilies impofed en the Catholics. Thefe took their rife in a later period. In the reign of Charles 11. they ori ginated in the jealoufy of the religious fentiments of that Monarch—a jealoufy indeed which appears to have been well founded. At the revolution, it was not Catholics, but Jacobites, that were to be retrained. ( Alter the at bitrary attempts and the tyrannical pro ceetlings of James 11. had driven him from the throne, it was natural to think that a Prince who, from devotion to the religion of the Catholics, had facrificed a crown, would become the favourite of that body. In Ireland this feeling was more Moog; the union of James 11. and the Catholics was fo much more complete, that the two things could not ' he levitated, and Catholics became objets of pecu liar fufpicion and feverity to the law, as the adherents of the exiled monarch. It was not their religions driarines, hut their political confederacy with James 11. that .'crew down upon them fo marry penalties, and ~xyded them tr fo much feverity. William 111. I have evzr c,nitidered one of the greaten Princes that ever fi:!,:d the thron: of this or any other country— ;lll..ticit!"c::::.ll;':;i y wi t ' ';:r ll a y te e d " b n ; P n t nature r a e nr b I ; 5 bigotry,hait to i noteitt n0d..,:r.:. .to age the principles of freedom and , L41,3 - 46°11. 1'0 , ..4'e who would rePrctent Bind %U. Lam as a religious hignt, as a furious perfecutor of re ligions opinion, degrade a charader which they either milieprerent, or do not underhand. It is perfedly well known that he yielded with the utmnh reluelance to the fev ere reariettons that were impofed upon th e Catholics, and he yielded to them only becaufe he was told, that thofe who were the enemies of his per fon and title could never fafely be entrusted with any portion of powe-. Whether it wcfuld have been wife. to foften the reltridinns, nr to have removed them altogether, is not now the quellion. King William. contrary to his principles and to his habit, acquiefced in the wi(hes of a notiol he was called to govern, and the reflritliors were implfed for the fecurity of the new eilabliihment upon political, not upon religious grounds. The years ilia followed the Revolution were years ID: war, or of . ftifpicions, doubtful truces. Dining ail that time it was the favourite policy of France to embarrafsthis country by a difputed fuc . ceton. She naturally, therefore, looked to the Ca thotics, particrlarly thofe of Ireland, as inliruments of forwarding her defigns. The Catholics, therefore, were more and more involved in the caufe of the ex- iled family, and therefore rendered objena diflike and diftrult to the fiends of the Revo lution, on ac count of that connexion. Hence the Catholics were in every fenfe of the word difarmect. They were (tripped of power, of dillinetion, nay of property. But it was owing to their political connexion with the Stuarts, more than to their religious tenets, that they were . oxpoftel to theft hardffiips. Some religious bigots, indeed, may have eapeeted that the meatures of levetity employed would have operated the con verfion of e Catholics of behind. With lenient Meafares it is palible that this converfion might have been efferfted ; but in the way in which things were tondo:led, that was ma to be expetfted. The laws under which the Catholics fuffeted, were therefore in reality made against the Jacobites; and as the ap prehentions of the exiled family long continued, fo did the laws made to reprefe the Catholics. The gand concluet of the Catholics of Ireland,duting two ebtßions, gave them claims to the favourable opinion of the Government, but in late as thole events they had nee ceafed to be objelts of furpicion, on account of their fuppofed political partialities. Soon after the vitiation of the latt of chore. rebellions, which occurred during the two Frit reigns of the finure of Brunfwick, a new =a was commenced. The danger to the Conftitution and Government of this Coun try from the Stuart Family was wholly at an end at the time of his Majefty's acceffion to the Throne— nay, during the latter years of George 11. it was quite contemptible. Then was the time at which it mutt have become cafe, even in the opinion of the moft timid, to mitigate the feverity of the laws againft the Catholics. I believe that force fymptoms of a relaxation, in fa ft, of the. prejudices and feverities againtt the Catholics, began to appear under the Lord Lieutenancy of the Duke of Bedford, who held that office about the time his Majefly fucceeded t". , the Throne. At that period there appeared cir curirttances which proved the caufe of the reftrietions to be at an end. Sa far from fearing the Catholics asenemiea, arms were put into their hands contrary to law, when upon foam occalion the enemy appear ed off the Coalt of Ireland—thus, !hewing that the Catholics, who by law were held fo forpeCted as to be c'eprived of arms, were armed by the Adminifira don for the public defence. That the fituation of the Catholics then b'liatsn to attrarft the attention of public men, and with a difpotition to relieve them from the hardthips under which they laboured, is welt known, and I refer to Mr. Biti letters as a proof of this. I remember, that fiv far back as the year 1776, from an accidental circumftance that fell out in this Houk, the fituation of the Catholics of Ireland began to form the topic of converfation, and it the feelings which then appeared, did not im mediately ditclofe themfelves in formal propofitions, it may have been, that the intereft of the immediate queftions of the time, and the warmth of party politics left little room for other confederation. In conk qitence of the fentiments I have d.feribed, however, I have no doubt that the Aft brought in for the re lief of Catholics by Sir George Saville and Mr. Dun ning, men wh on I name only to recall their memory with feelings cf reverence and efteem, was introduc ed. I believe, ton, there is title doubt that that mett fine had a view to Ireland more than to England, where cottons and forbearance had, in point of fart, left lo much left to be done for the real relief and fe entity of the Catholics. I thought then, as I have always thought tote, that to deprive men of political rights for religious opininne, without a ftrong and imperious neeeffity, was tyranny. What was done, it was expated, might lead to fomething being done in Ireland to the fame end, nor was the expeaation difappointed. I tememher too, what tiaggered men at that time, was not any dread of the Pope, or the Pretender, of whom it was then ufual for many to fpeak, time with a degree of compaction, fome with triumph, but none with the fmallelt degree of alarm or apprebenfion. The difficulty moll generally felt was, that the long exiftence of the penal laws, toge ther with what (I beg pardon of the Irifh Gentlemen) I cannot help calling the ferocious manner in which the higher orders of the Irith Proprietors carried themfelves towards the lower Catholic Body, had produced inch a degradation in the latter as ren dered it doubtful, as Mr. Burke Rates, how far men fo constituted could be trotted with the exercife of po litical rights. it was feared too, that from the effect of the laws againft the Catholics, by changing the natural current of property, by iiiteidiaing to Catholics the acquifition of many kiwis of it, while by civil wars and revolutions, the Catholics had been almoft en tirely depriaed of All property, fuch an extraordina ry (late of things had at ifen as would defy the appli cation of common political principles. I would not be thought tocompare the refpettive claffes of fociety, thole who bad, and thole who had not property, to the Negroes and Whites in the Weft India ((lands; but certainly property was alma entirely in the hands of what was called the Protettaut Afceudancy,