Star. — London, England, 1824-05-12 00:00:00

3_ •• • could it be allowed, in practical policy, that the subjects of die C:own of Great Britoin were at liberty to digest co-Tiracies against the peace we had contracted with foreign Power , , and that good faith so vital to peace; and be would therefoie say, that this country would no longer be able to maintain peace and good faith with other countries if Government were not entrusted with tl'e power to eject Flom its bosom the enemies of both, and put them entirely down. He knew perfectly well that the measure was calculated to involve the Execu tive in some difficulties; and, certainly, had Ministers now consulted their personal ease, thfy would be better without the Bill, which, in his opinion, was of the highest importance to the country. But in the present Bill a provision was made to avoid the chief objection to the existing Act, as it was provided that foreigners who had resided for seven years in this country, and e,tablished themselves here, should hereafter be consi dered not as foreigners but as subjects. With these ex planations, he had only to move that the Bill should be read a second time. The Earl GROSVENOR, on the question being put, re,isted the Bill upon the grounds of its being got up upon an understanding with foreign Powers, and the latitude it afforded for abuse on the part of Government. The Earl of DARNLEY wished to know whether his Majesty's Ministers, if the Bill passed, had it in contemplation to suffer it to expire in two years? A new light had certainly broken in upon Ministers with respect to this Bill, inasmuch as there was one clause in it which had never appeared in any former Bill; but notwithstanding that clause, he should still feel it his duty to vote against the Bill. The Noble Lord had said that this Bill was necessary to prevent the danger which might arise to this Government from conspiracies formed by foreigners against their own country, and which conspiracies might be ultimately the cause of war with this country. He was certainly ready to ad mit, that in that iespect the passing of this Bill was ma terial. lie was one of those who would not wish to see the tranquillity of this country disturbed by those men who had come from a country where lately the spirit of rising liberty had been merely stifled, but not destroyed; but when he said this, he must at the same time say, that he did not think those persons able, even if they were willing, to form such a conspiracy against the Continental despots as was likely to produce a war against this country. But even supposing such a con spiracy to be formed, could not Nlinisters, without the assistance of an Alien Act, take upon themselves the responsibility of devising some means to check ti? Lord CALTHORPE never felt any apprehension that bis Majesty's Ministers would abuse, for vexatious purposes, any powers which might be granted to them, but he did think, that until lately theme was a misun derstanding on the part of foreign Powers respecting the length to which his Majesty's Government was in clined to go in support of Continental principles: but after the manly and candid explanation of the Right Hou. Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, that it was the determination of the British Government to pursue British interests independently, and without any regard to the wishes of foreign States, no Continental Power could expect the removal of any individual from this country, upon their representation that his residence in this country was obnoxious to them. Considering the violated pledges of the Continental Sovereigns, and the numerous foreigners whom the conduct of their Sove reigns drove to seek an asylum in this country, he should be very unwilling to support a measure of this kind ; but being quite satisfied, from the alteration which had taken place in our forein policy, he should support the measure. Ile thought it would be productive of good to foreigners; because this country being in a state of amity. with foreign Powers, might not by haughty dic tation, but by friendly remonstrance, prevail upon fo reign Powers to redeem those pledges which they had so solemnly made to their subjects. The Earl of CARNARVON was anxious to know upon what grounds the Noble Earl had brought in this Bill, because he understood that in consequence of a change in the policy of the Cabinet, this Bill was to be discontinued in a short time ; and indeei he believed such language had been held in another place. He therefene expected that the Noble Earl would, in pro posing the second reading of this Bill, have stated that the causes which bad originally induced Ministers to call for it had diminished ; but what must have been his surprise when he heard the Noble Earl say, that the causes for passing this Bill were now as strong as ever? The Noble Lord who had spoken last had as a reason for supporting this measure, that Isis Majesty's Ministers had disclaimed all connection with foreign Powers, or that they introduced this measure at the instance or re quest of those Powers. But he would ask the Noble Lard, did he at any time bear Ministers use different language? The Noble Lord (Calthorpe)gave as another reason for his support of the measure, that it might in dtwe the Sovereigns of Europe to adopt a liberal po licy, atO to redeem the pledges which they had given to their subjects. If he (Earl Carnarvon) thought the passing of this Bill would produce such a result, he not would give it his support, but support several Bills o the same description, and as opposed to his political ()pitons , but he was sati s fied that it was chimerical to evect such a result, and he should therefore oppose a twasure which vests so repugnant to the principles of the British Constitution. It was idle to have any ap prehension from the infection of revolutionary principles preached in broken English by foreigners—by men, to whom the people of England were not much inclined to listen upon ('cnstitntional liberty. It was remark. able with what candour the Noble Eirl who proposed the second reading of this Bill had abstained front en tering into the reasons which produced the new clause in the Bill ; but he understood, (and he wished to know from the Noble Eat I if his information was correct) that the Bill was brought in by comptomise, and this clause was introduced, in order that there might be something like a Bill which would satisfy one side and give a salve to the other. He considered the Bill in its present shape inoperative as to that clause, and as opposed as any Alien Bill ever passed to the principles of Constitu tionalliberty; and he should therefore vote against it. The Earl of WESTMORLAND would vote for this Bill on British grounds solely, for the preservation of. our own tranquillity and the peace of Europe, which the Noble Lords opposite were formerly.so anxious to pi mote. Ile could nut conceive that. A country could be at peace and war at the same time. Governments could not be at peace with other States while their. sub. jects were at war with them. He could not concetve.how the Lord Mayor of London. could be at peace with the .Grand Seignior, and his Government at war with him. It was fit that Government should have this power, to preyent machinations against foreign States, both on the part of its own subjects, and those of other countries. This Bill would enable this country to be an asylum for _-_ ba.~ foreigners exiled from their native lands ; and so far from being an oppressive measure, it would be a pro tection to them. As a measure of neutrality, too, it was, in his opinion, the duty of the house to pass this Bill. It did not seem to have terrified many foreigners away, considering the numbers of them that flocked to our shores ; neither were Englishmen afraid to travel on the Continent; where they were exposed to much harsher laws than this. Lord HOLLAND would not trouble the House with a recapitulation of the many objections which for the last twenty years he had urged in that House against this Bill, nor the grounds on which this measure was now required to be renewed. When this Bill was first brought in (in 1792), the preamble said, that from the great number of foreigners resorting to this country, much danger was apprehended to the tranquillity of the State. Mark how carefully it was guarded; but would the Noble Lord say that such was the case now? Then it was defended on account of the war; but when the war ceased this Bill did not cease also. The French emigrants did avail themselves as much as possible of the freedom of this country, for they actually published recommendations to assassinate the then Ruler of France. Nl.Otto applied to the Noble Earl opposite on the subject, and was told by him that we had laws, and he might pro secute them. M. Otto at last hinted to the Noble Earl that we had an Alien Bill, and might send them out of the coun try. The moment the Noble Earl heard that, he slapped the door in M. Otto's face. The Noble Earl, who was then supposed to be inclined too much to peace, quitted the quiet little nag he was so fond of bestriding, and imme diately mounting his great war horse, he kicked, and he pranced, and he cur vetted at M. Otto.--[Here Lord Holland read the correspondence between Lord Liver pool and M. Otto on the subject.]—lt had been said that this Bill was intended to preserve peace: but where was this amulet of tranquillity ? it was raked up in December, 1792, from a dunghill of bad mea sures, by rather a pugnacious personage, a sort of a fighting-cock, Mr. Pitt. And what was the consequence of this pacific measure? Why, that in January, 1793, the war began, the longest, the bloodiest, and the most expensive that this country had ever been engaged in. But the Noble Earl was unwilling to interfere in the in ternal affairs of other countries—the Noble Earl, who h.td shared in all the wicked and disgraceful measures of interference with France, which led to that dreadful war from which this country still bled, and pined Ind groaned. Holland preserved peace upwafds of seveiny years, and yet she had no Alien Bill, although machi nations were entered into by foreigners, many of whom had taken refuge in that country. They did, however, deliver two of the regicides to Charles 11. who were exe cuted. They did this to curry favour with that ungrate ful King, who was the only King of England who ever entered into a Holy Alliance against the existence of that Republic. This was what they got by their un worthy conduct, with a view to obtain peace. A Noble Earl had said, that a subject could not be at war with a State with which his Government was at peace; but there were plenty of laws of coercion against our own subjects, as well as foreigners, for entering into undue machinations. The Noble Earl had said, this kind mea sure was all done for the sake of foreigners. The Noble Earl seemed to have taken a leaf out of the book of the Noble Lord on the Woolsack, who said he brought out all his toleration the other day for the good of the Dis senters. Good people, the foreigners—site si bona 'mint. ' This measure spewed rather the mains animus against the poor foreigners ; but, qui fecit peralium feel; per se; and as he thought this Bill was likely to involve this country in foreign wars, by embroiling us with foreign Potentates and Ambassadors,, he hoped this measure would not be suffered to pass ; for, as a great Poet and politician had said— " This country was design'd To be the common refuge of mankind." The Earl of LIVERPOOL explained, and contended that he had always supported this measure on the same' grounds as now. M. Otto applied to have foreigners sent out of the country for publications, as every Govern ment, he hoped, would do. They refused, saying, the Courts of Law were open for their prosecution. After this, M. Otto required some foreigners to be sent away, on account of machinations against his Government, founding his application on that of this country, for the I removal of the Pretender from France; and the answer was, that he was removed in consequence of a specific clause in a Treaty. As to the Bishop of Arras, and others, accused of distributing papers in France exciting the people against the new relig►on, the answer was, that if it could be proved against them, his Majesty would deem it proper to take every measure in his power to get them to quit the country; and this answer was generally approved of by men of all parties at the time. The LORD CHANCELLOR could not have any doubt as to the propriety of passing this Bill, which had been often sanctioned since 1793. That first measure contained pains and penalties which none of the latter Acts had in them ; former Bills being suited to the greater danger of the times. He contended that it was not unconstitutional for his Majesty to send Aliens out of the country. It was part of his prerogative, and might be unwise or inexpedient, but could not be called uncon stitutional. He called on them to consider whether the same state of things that existed in 1816 did not continue still to require the enactment of this measure again ? Their Lordships then divided, when the numbers were— For the motion—Contents 46, Proxies 34 80 Against it—Non Contents 17, Proxies 18 35 Majority in favour of the Motion... —4s The Bill was then read a second time.—Adjourned at Nine. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Several Petitions were presented for and against the St. Katha ritpl's Dock Bill; against the New Commercial-road Bill; against Negro Slavery; against the License Duty Bill ; against the Bonded Wheat Bill; against the Dublin Tax Bill; for and against the Sale of Beer Bill; against the Corn Laws; against the Irish Tythes Bill ; against the Window and House Tax ; and against the Hides and Skins Bill. Lord NEWItY brought in a Bill to authorise the Commissioners of Inland Navigation in Ireland to raise money, by way of mort gage, on the Tolls of the Newry Canal, for the purpose of carry ing on the improvements now going on upon that work.—The Bill was read a first time. Mr. HUME presented a Petition from the Synod of Angus and .!earns, praying that Religious Instruction might be extended to the Negroes in the West Indite. Air. S. WOR!LEY gave notice, that on Thursday he should present a Petition against the Superannuation Act. Mr. Wo DUN DAS presented a Petition from Edinburgh, against the Assessed Tazei; and several Petitions from Edinburgh, against the Scotch Pour Bill. - _ Lord BINNING presented a Petition from several Officers of the Co►►rt of Session in Scotland, against the Stamp Duties. Coionel LESLIE preiented Petitions from different Bodies of Freemasons in Ireland, praying to be placed upon the same footing with their brethren in E►►gland. Petitions were presented against the Beer Duties Bill, from the Itinholders and Licensed Victuallers of Sandwich, Leicester, Chel tenham, :Macclesfield, hlillerwbite, -Ludlow, and other places.— Lad on the table. CASE OF JOSEPH SWAN. Mr. J. WILLIAMS said, he held in his hand a Peti tion from Joseph Swan, who had been a pri4oner , some days the printing of the Petition, to affoldd - mote time for inquit y. CAVAN ELECTION. M. A BER.CIIO ‘I BY presented a Petition frem cer. tate Freeholders of the Count? 01 Cavan, complainin g that the ft ee.een of Election had been gre•sl% Tee High Sheriff had ann unced the E.ectiet, by placard having the effigy of King Willi: v 1:1 0 L11: 0 :1: :: : a corresponding iasciiption. On the day of Hectio a the Court was filled with Orangemen, themselves in the mesa intemperate manner. he the night that followed a murder lied been commitesd ese One of the Magistrates stated to the crowd, ti, tt Orangemen, they we r e now a legally coesti , etc.! betty. The Petitioners stated, that this was the seco n d r am , the same provocation had been received. W:ren i t e a , proposed on a well-known occasion to address th e i. Lieutenant, such was the tumult, that the Sherd, se matter of prudence, dissolvedehe Meeting. Te e y et i , tioners implored the protection of the !louse. Ile serene put it to the House, if such Members could he iverielet! as representing the People of Ireland . He had steee. that a murder had been committed, and lez wished r e know the composition of the Jury by svheen the parties had been tried. Such a state of things must be c: le e worst consequences. Mr. MAXWELL (Member for Cavan) stated that t!i county cf Cavan bad formerly been one of the most quiet in Ireland, and Protestants and Catholics had Iwo: equally anxious to promote thetranquillity of the county. The High Sheriff had twice denied any knewledee of the placard alleded to. The person neat for the m os . der had been acquitted, to the satisfaction of dli present. Orangemen was a convenient term ler zeose did net venture to attack the Protestant ceu-e, an.t notbh could be move unfair than ts confOutid the Orange e ter the Ribbon -mete as the object of tee latter waste se parate the two countries. The Petition was then reed, and laid on the table. STATC Cr IRELAND. Lord ALTUORP ro e to make his promised motion relative to the state of Ireland. Ile commenced by te mai king, that he addressed Ititosehf to the subject with the greatest anxiety as to the fee of Lis aeelication, be cause he sincerely telt it ought to have faden o• the Ice of other hands to treat it as its importance demanded. If, however, Ise should be able to induce the licuse to go only a past of the way with him, the mete cocoa:- stance of this discussion would, he hoped, be ineit'a tive of very great benefit, and many advantage, to Ire land. The question was surrounded by many ,iffi culties, and thse,e difficulties :Arose from a long itain cf events connected with the history of that comet y. Ire land had unfortunately all along been treated as a con quered country. A deadly feud had subsisted between the mass of the people and their masters, the conquered and the conquerors.—The result was haired tat the part of the people to their Government, (lists uo of each other, violent party spirit, and aversion to the laws in a greater degree than was ever known in any other country's history. This made their grievances not only extremely difficult to remedy, but extremely difficult to attempt to touch.—The evils of many centuries were not to be removed by violent or sudden measures— (Hear). Up to the period of the Union it might have been said, that it was extremely difficult to treat Ire land otherwise, but after that event, the 4tate of things was completely altered. The Catholic population of Ireland, which was till then the majority of its popula tion, became by the Union the minmity of the popula tion of the Empire. Of the Union he must say he thought it was a wise measure. however; its evils were certain, whilst the advantages were adventitious and dependent on the sort of Government which she might have the good or ill fortune to obtain. The evils were the increase of absentees and alienation of pro perty, and the possible advantages were the putting down of all political patties by a just Government, and the establishment of an equality of rights throughout that country. These were his own opinions on the sub ject. The evils he principally complained of were, dis trust, want of mutual confidence, party spirit, and hatred of the laws. The difficulty at the subject would, perhaps, best be met by moving fore general Com mittee on the subject, rather than moving far partial and separate inquiry into a variety of abuses. Most of the evils in Ireland were perpetuated by an open con tempt of public opinion on the part of the public au thorities. To restore that wholesome influence was a desideratum of the utmost consequence. It was too fashionable of late to meet complaints of this nature by appointing a Commission. He should prefer a Com mittee of that House, as best able to meet and over come the difficulties of such an inquiry. It might be said that the state of the country was so far improved, that these was no necessity for the inquiry; but this would be considered altogether unsatisfactory, if met absurd, since the Insurrection Act was very likely to be a subject of discussion as applicable to Ireland within a very short period. This was in itself a good reason for demanding inquiry on the subject. Though late in the Session, that was no argument against their acced ing to his motion; for it was impossible this inquiry could terminate its labours in any one Session. He himself bad served very patiently for months on a Com mittee of Trade and Commerce, and none though: their labours thrown away ; but it was idle to talk of the importance of such a subject as compared with the welfare of Ireland. So strongly wog he impressed with the belief that others thought so, that he thought it would be easy to procure twenty-one Gentiemen such a Committee who would devote themselves to the subject with laudable zeal and perseverance. lie should propose that this Committee should be invested with very extensive powers ; and though the House should be cautious in interfering between landlord and tenant, master and servant, yet suds was the state of society in Ireland, that the saute deOcace as to legislating on these intricate relations would not he either necessary or praiseworthy. The tenant might at present be con sidered as the bondsman almost of his landlord, ahem he kept a sort of running account, in which were Mehl led the services of not only himself but of his family. There was another class of evils arising oat et the rniddie-men, and the controul they exerceed over property. Ail these causes Legat a c:istrust which had hitherto proved fatal to the employment of capital le Ireland by English capitalists, owing to the apprehen sions which were entertained as to the safety of ploperl embarked in such speculatiens. He had heard with plcasute the motion of the Honourable Member isr Northatnpton a few nights ago, on the subject of th ,, opening now fur the employment of capital in ;lea. country. He believed the dangers attending the err' ployment of capital in Ireland were much exagge.atea:. The Irish were too sensible slot to see the benefits ',hits) must arise faorn a general dissemination of weehe through that country. The employment of capital in land might be less safe celt4inly, but in manufao,,iio, r~ Chester jail since 1819, on a charge of a political na ture. The * Petitioner had or4;inally been a manufaC, turer at Macclesfield, where he failed; and he then en tered into the booksdling line, and•in the course of his ,business, he had the misfortune to sell a political for which he was prosecuted, and committed to The Honourable Member then proceeded to detail the facts of the case, and observed, that one fact most re main undisputed—namely, that he had been in prison four years and three-quarters. The Petitioner stated that he (Mr. Williams) had been Counsel against him in this prosecution ; that might be the fact ; but if it was so, certainly he had nothing to do with the punish ment or imprisonment which followed ; that imprison ment spoke for itself: it had beer: long beyond parallel for such an offence. It was true that, at a certain pe riod, such feelings and such disorder prevailed in the country, as rendered the prosecutions and punishments necessary ; but that period had passed away, and now was only recollected as it was recalltrd to our minds by the punishment which such miserable individuals as the Petitioner were still suffering. He would put it to the Right Honourable Gentleman opposite to say, whether, when this period bad so completely passed away, it would not be policy to put an end to the punishment, of which, he believed, the Petitioner was the only re maining victim? He concluded by moving for leave to bring up the Petition. Mr. JAMES supported the Petition, and expressed his hope that the Secretary of State would comply with its prayer. Mr. Secretary PEEL said, the prosecution of Swan took place before he was in office ; he had, however, , made inquiry into the facts of the case, and felt it his duty to say, that he did not consider it expedient to ad vise his Majesty to remit any part of Swan's punishment. I-k was prosecuted upon five different charges: two for sedition, two for blasphemy, and one for conspiracy. Upon three of these charges he was convicted, EL , 2 other two charges were not pressed against him. He would remain in prison till the expiration of his sentence : he would then, upon finding security for good behaviour, be discharged, as there had been no fine imposed upon him. The Right Honourable Secretary then proceeded to describe the nature of the seditious libel of which the prisoner had been convicted, which was of a most vio lent description, and submitted to the House, that he should not be warranted in recommending this person as an object to whom the r oyal mercy should be extended. Mr. HUME strongly supported the prayer of the Pe tition. He could not consider the offence which Swan had committed as of so serious or dangerous a descrip tion as the Right Hon. Gentleman had described it. Mr. SYKES wished to call the attention of the House to the situation in which this unfortunate man would be when discharged. How could it be expected that he, forgotten as he now was by former friends and by the world, could find security to a heavy amount for future good behaviour? Mr. PEEL said, the only security which would be required would be two persons in the sum of 251. each, and himself in 501.—The Petition was then read, brought up, and ordered to be printed. OUTRAGES IN IRELAND. Mr. J. SMITH said he had to present a Petition from an obscure individual, complaining of hardships, which he was convinced could only be found to exist in Spain or in Ireland. In the present case, the person com plaining was an Irishman ; who stated, that in Decem ber last the Petitioner found his cabin one night sur rounded by 20 or 30 individuals, who broke into his house, stabbed him in several places, and broke his arm, and also severely wounded his brother, and set fire to his little cabin. After a time, this unfortunate indi vidual applied to a Magistrate to have these atrocious offenders apprehended; they were apprehended, and taken before two Magistrates, by whom, although they were charged with a felony, they were admitted to bail. They were afterwards tried and acquitted, and soon after they came with a warrant, and tore away this un fortunate man's cow, in payment, as they said, of costs incurred at the trial. Soon after the poor man was himself apprehended on a charge of riot, tried and found guilty, and sentenced to six months' imprison ment. He had now presented his Petition, in which he prayed that the House would call on the Judge who presided at the trial, for his notes; that they would call on the Magistrates to produce the depositions on which they admitted these persons, thus charged with felony,l to bail, and that they would institute full inquiry into this most atrocious case. He trusted the Right Hon. Gentleman would institute full inquiry into this and many other transactions which occurred in December last. He concluded by moving, that the Petition should be brought up. General ARCHDALL defended the purity of the Juries in Ireland. He complained, however, that the great majority of Protestants in Ireland were Orangemen. Lord MILTON expressed his regret at hearing the charge thrown out by the Hon. General (Archd.lll), against the great body of the Protestants. Mr. CANNING did not understand the Honourable General to say, that all Protestants were Orangemen ; what he understood his Honourable Friend to say was, that according to the sense in which this Petition was couched, every Protestant was an Orangeman. Mr. GOULBURN defended the Irish Government; he said they had instituted every possible inquiry, and the closet investigation, to get at the truth of this transaction. Mr. PLUNKETT explained the course of proceeding which had been adopted by the Irish Government on this subject. As to the seizure of the cow for costs, the Honourable Gentleman must have been misinformed. The Magistrate who had admitted the persons in question to bail was not a regular Magistrate. The Petition, which was from John M'Eusia, of the county of Fermanagh, was then brought up and read. Mr. J. SMITH could not think that the Irish Go vernment had done their duty on this occasion. A very different line of conduct would have been taken in this country. Such Petitions he should always introduce to the notice of the House. Mr. DOGHERTY spoke to the impartiality and in tegrity with which the law was administered in Ireland. He had never seen any distinction in the tribunals of jus tice in Ireland. Ile spoke from the experience of 17 years. Mr. M. FITZGERALD thought that the notes of the Judge who tried the cause should be first read. He hoped there would be no objection to grant the prayor of the Petition. His Honourable Friend (Mr. :3mith) had been always actuated by the warmest regard for Ireland. In some parts of the country he would Lather oust to the Judge alone, than to the verdict of a Jury. Mr. Secretary I'EEL thought the present discussion irrelevant. He would recommend that the Petition should be withdrawn for a few days till inquiry could be..made; he did not see that a dikarrut course could have been taken in this country. Mr. J. SMITH had nu objection to postpone for J Oa inc obj 14r nal Oa ma the TI !Lc ' I