Star. — London, England, 1805-04-11 00:00:00

chief Clerks named in the Report, were the only) perfons anthotifed fo to drew hitherto ; and this morning the Bank had received an order in writing, from the prefent Treafurer (Mr. Canning) in futute to ray no drat s that were ton figned with his nitric. As to the vote he gave the other night, he did con L ot in it, becaufe he law great negligence in the con dna of Lord Melville ; but having confidered that s o ae, he was Hot on e to go farther. He did not h, N e ve that Lord Melville had any cot rupt motives ; was a long. meritorious, and alive fervant of the pii lit ; and, din ing the twenty years he ( Mr. Thorn ton) had been in Parliament, he had never, until hlondsy night, given a vote againft him. Mr. BARHAM was of opinion that the allufion ma d e by the Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Cam ing) to the two Honourable perfons whole na val .aid military c,indirel had been the fubjea of en quiry in that Houk the heginning of latt war, was eery injudicious, and could ferve no ufeful purpofe. The rail which he himfelf had taken in that &kid fion he had been pr Impted to by what he had at that time conceived to be a fenfe of duty, however painful he had felt the talk. The two Noble Lords, however, had been amply acquitted by a vote of the lloufe, and had lince jultified the good c,pi ri• nof the public. In regard to the queflion now before the Houfe, he thought it a flep moved by the' Honourable Gentleman abfolutely neceffary to carry into effeet the refolutions formerly voted. It was by loch a meafure only they could tell his Majelly that fuch perfons were improper to hold any office of troll or confidence. This opinion, he maintained,originated in ou 'waives of perfonal animolity to the Noble Lord. Hardly any, he believed, had fewer enemies than that Noble Lord, and tar Ilmold he be from fupporting any =nitric that he thought had its origin in the fmal. led degree from a rancorout or perfecuting fpirit.— On the contrary, this he maintained, was a meafure of juirice, and effe.ntial to the honour and dignity of the Houle. He hoped, therefore, the motion would be perfifted in. Mr. BANKS difavowed any political tonne/Mons that could warp his judgment on any great quellion of justice or policy. The vote he had given on Mon day night had been purely difinterefled, and had not atiten from the influence of any party. He difap proved of the abafes that had taken place, and had voted accordingly. He would take the liberty, however, though unconnected with any party, to recommend to the Hun. Gentleman not to perlin in his prefent motion. Was the Hon. Gentleman cer tain that the circumQances of the cafe, taken in the whole, would warrant fuch a meafure ? At any rate, he thought it extremely ill-timed; and the fame fence of duty-that had prompted him to vote with the Honourable Gentleman on Monday night would alto induce him to refill the prefent motion. The defign of the adjournment on the former night was avowedly to decline any meafure on the part of the Houle till they fhould fee if his Majefty would, from the fuggellinns of his own Royal brtall, take any !Lep that might fuperfede the necefilty of any fur thcr operations on the part of the Monte. The refult had been favourable to the willies of the Houfe, and bad rendered, in his opinion, this meafure unneccffary. But why, he :liked, fuch eagernefs to fol low up the blow that had been already given; for this, be undenllot.d,was but a 133114 the mealures that were intended to be adopt rd, and that other inquiries were alto to be inhit tired? :it fhould be told that it was to prevent the Noble Lord from ever again returning to his Majefly's C'aincils; but there was no probability in his opinion that he would again be reflored. Indeed, he hid, it might not be imponible, but farther enquiry snightleadtoadifeavery that might render animpeach ment neceffary. He did not by any means fay that fuch would be the effect of farther enquiry, but that loch might be the effea was not impoffible. Should fuch, however, be the area, it would then be time enough to have recourfe to loch meafures, for at pre fent he deemed them premature . It had been raid, that the refolutions of the former night would prove ineffectual—would he attended with no material ad vantage, unlefs followed up by a meafure of the de feriptionof that propofed by the Hon. Gentleman ; 1 but it was generally underflood that night, he conten ded, when thofe refulutions paired, that no farther meafures were to be adopted. Had this motion im mediately followed the refolutions, it might have been confidered as a neceffary corollary to thole refo lutions, and might, as fuch, have met his fupport— but the neceffity of tl meafure no longer ezifted.— The lisp propofed to the Houfe was befides contrary to all the precedents with which he was acquainted. So far as his knowledge or experience extended, it never had been the triage of the Houfe to addrefs his Majelly againn perfons out of office. Such was the cafe hi refrat to Sir Robert Walpole, Lord Rane lagh, and others whom the lion. Gentleman men tioned, against schnm no a ddrefs of removal had been prefented to hi, Najd's., though previoufly perhaps in the contemplation of Parliament, when no longer in office. Indeed, the very idea was fulliciently ab fund, becaufe it was not poflible to remove from office thole who were in no office. At all events, if the matter was to under g o a full difcullion, as intimated by the Honourable Gentleman, he would much ra ther delay any farther proceedings till the refult of th.Ae inquiries fhould be afcei taincd. When the Houle fhould have the whole before them, they could then moreptly climate the degree of odium that was to be attached to a condo& which, though irregular and in violation of Parliament, might yet admit of many circumltances of mitigation. In fuch a dif covery, he declared lie would have much more plea fore than he experieneed on Monday night in the vote lie gave in favour of the refolutions. Mr. WINDHA wilhed before he entered upon the quettion to make a few obfervations upon what had fallen from an Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Banks) who, althon, , h he was always on the fame leach with him, was iddom nn the fame fide of the rafli9n. That Honourable Gentleman had tiled a molt fingular kind of argument ; he would have fup ported the Refolutien propofed by his Right Ho. pourable F r i en d on t h e p i eceding debate, as a jun inference from the refolutions which the Houfe had agreed to, hot he had lince found it neceffary or con venient to alter his opinion. If this refolution was then to he confidered as a fair corollary from the pre miles laid down, he walled to know upon what prin. eiples of confilleney it could be confidered in another light at prefent? The queflion was not that Lord Mel ville fhould be excluded from a high official fituat ion now, but fur ever. He could fee only one reafon upon • . which tho Route, confiftent with their proceeding on a former evening, could content not to pats the prefent propofition, and that was, that the principle fhould be admitted and recognifed, that no perfon under the een fare of that Houle 'bold be appointed to any place of trull and confidence as bing as he remained fo. The Houle would not ael c ,, olidently if they did not follow up the decilion of Monday hall. They fhould not have come to the decifion they did, unlefs they were fatif Red the cafe was fully made nut but that being done, and the prcmifcs fairly eflablifhed, the conch!. lion, or, in other words, the prefent propofition fol lowed as a necelfary confequence. The Noble Lord has unfortunately placed hitnfelf in that fituation that he cannot either now or hereafter fill .any employ ment of troll. It t h en b ecomes t h e d uty o f the Houle to take every rational fecurity that he fhould not, and i there was no fectirity fo (Irony or fo fatisfaElory as the motion propufed by his Hon. Friend. It was their duty to the public to take every neceffary pre caution that it fboald not happen hereafter, which in their prefent judgment, they thought fhonld not hap pen now. As to the charges of paffinn or malice, which had been fo confidently urged by the cool Gen tleman (Mr. Canning) on the oppofite bench, he would put it to every candid man in the Honfe to fay whether they had pile beyond the line of their duty, and whether they were going ? If they were, let it be thewn by argument, and let it not tell upon the intemperarc affertions of the Right Hon. Gentle. man. Parliament had made a great effort, fuch a one as, he was pet fnaded, would entitle them to the thanks and gratitude of the whole kingdom ; he wifhed that they would continue thole efforts; he with ed to to take fecurity againft their falling off. It would be a lamentable infiance of the mutability of opinion if they thould forfeit, by indifference or lan guor, the high honours which their condo& on the preceding evening had obtained them from " all forts of people," honour-, " Wklch mould be worn now in their newdt glofs. " Not eaft stale fo foam" The Right Hon. Gentleman had indulged himielf in the ufe of tome firong expreffions option the force of popular prejudice and clamour; in that he fully coincided with him. To yield upon any oceaflon to public clamour, fo far as to condemn any one upon it, would be, in his opinion, one of the meanefi and moll unjuft ads of which a deliberative body could he capable. But as the Noble Lord had not, as he would contend, been condemned under the influence of public clamour, he conceived it the duty of the Heroic to proceed and follow up their refolutions of Monday, by agresing to the motion of his Honoura ble Friend. Leaving out of the queftion all idea of partiipation in the profits derived from the tile of the public monks, and looking only to the ablirad crime, the bare and naked violation of an Ad of Parliament, dill he would maintain, that the Honie was in duty bound, if they valued confillencyt if they valued the maintenance of their own honour, to pro teed and to pals the motion made by his Hon. Friend as a neceffary inference, and corollary from the re lolutions to which they had agreed on Monday lati. Gentlemen would do well to recoiled, that they were not in a Court of &id judicial proceedings, but in a Court where the intereils, the honour, and the feel ings of the people were to be coofidered. Theratere not to be fettered by the ordinary maxims of the ju dicial tribunals, but the privileges of Parliament were to be afferted by them in that mode which they thought molt likely to chablifh and preferve them. The Noble Lord war undoubtedly carat anticir, and he bad no objedion that he thould long remain fo ; but it was as true, that he was no longer idottnupatria ; and, therefore, he thought it necelary that the Houle (kould declare fo. If it was underflood that the No. ble Lord flruld not be appointed to any place oftruft and confidence as long as the refolutions agreed 'to on Monday remained on the journals, that may be Urged as an argument again( t he adoption of his Honour. able Friend's motion ; but after what had palled, it was his opinion that the Houk, if it is to be con fifient with itfelf, fhould agree to the motion for an addrefs to his Majeliy. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER— " I rife, Sit, merely for the purple of expreffing my fenfe and undertlanding of the prefent Rate of this fobjed, and not by any means to injure the merits of the motion which what I have now to offer may per haps render unneceffary ; I cannot but hope that the Houfe will have the fame feeling on this fubje.t, which was expreffed in the conclulion of the fpeech of the Right Hon. Gentleman who (poke halt I confidently troll, that the generous fentiments of li berality and tendernels of fparing the feclir... b s of the Noble Vifcount, in In n ew an d h um ili at i ng a fituation will be adopted. They will, I expel:4 be fatisfied with hearing, that while the prefent refolutions ap pear upon the Journals of the Houle. all thoughts of Lord Melville's refloration to power or office mull be totally at an end. If, however, in the fubfequenr cootie of the proceedings, the Houk (hould be of a different opinion and vote that the pref e nt ref o l u ti ons fhould be refcind ed, it mutt naturally follow, that the difqualification of the Noble Lord will ceafe, when the charges difappear; but the only thing that excited my forprife was, that while thefe refolutions exified I and pending other proceedings, fuch a motion as the prefent fhould have been thought neceffary, for furely, under the prefent circumflances, it would be impnal- Mc for any Minifier to advife his Majefly to. confer any employment upon the Ntible Vifcount. The only difference between us is, therefore, in the mode of, following up the refolutions, for while they remain there can be no difference as to the coofequences." Mr. FOX—" The Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Bankes) feet xs to me to have miflaken the proceedings on a 'former night, at icaß with regard to their import.— I - lc - lays, if t!:e ref)tution now propofed had been 1 moved upon that occafion, he fhould have keen dif. poled to vote for it as a corollary to that propofi lion, but that the Rate of Ole queftion has been al. tered by what has taken place fence that time. Now it mull be in the recollettion of the Houfe, that the Right Hon. Gentleman oppofite (Mr. Pitt) Paid at the time that it was not fit to difeufs a fubjed of fo great magnitude at fo late an hour of the night.— In this recommendation I acquiefeed, becaufe I do not approve of the pratlice cf introducing motions of importance at•an unfeafonable time, although I admit I may be as guilty of that rradice as any man. Hoalver, when I did Co yield to the fug gellion of the Right Hon. Gentleman, I did not un derhand him as hinting in the remoteß degree at what has &ice paired, and making fuch conditional ',agreement for delaying the bufinefs. I did not lay not infinuate that the Houle would he fatisfied with the refignation of Lnrd Melville. I did, no doubt, fay that Minifiers might do their duty in the mean time, in Mete a way as might render it unneeefrary to propote any mealure for the removal of Lord Mel ville ; but I was not looking to any courfe which Lnrd Melville might chnofe for himfelf. If then we have loft the vote of the Hon. Gentleman, it is not be caufe we have varied our conduct, or on account of ally thing that has fince taken place, but becaufe I yield to an argumentsan ad vrrerimetarn, and con tented to the delay propofed by the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Pitt). Sir, with regard to the fpeech of a Right Hon. Member oppon:e (Mr. Can ning), it is to weak and irrelevant, I can fcarcely confider it as worth notice. It looks as if the joy and fatisfadion felt by the public at the vote of Mon day night, and the riling fpirit of the country, had excited in the hreaft of that Itonour able Gentleman, a fpirit of indignation which vents itfelf, irrelevant, and deftitute of any Lrnunde. Among other thiags it charges an Honourable Friend of mine (Mr. G. Ponfonby) with advancing tyrannical and uncouth tutional pi inciples. Now, Sir, what are thefe prin ciples ? My Hon. Friend, after plainly and candidly (Eating the cafe of Lord Melville, laid, that a man, thus cnnvid2ri by his own confeftion, (bout(' have been fufpended from office. There are innumerable cafes in which this courfe has been taken, and there is not one precedent of the contrary way. What, in the name of GOD! when our Steward has betrayed our confidence, and been, upon his own conleflion, guilty of grofs mifmanagement, mutt we continue him in that mitt and fituation, left we fhnuld prejudice his charader ? and, are we to be told, that it is uncon ftitutional and tyrannical to obterve that caution which is neceffary to prevent the continuance of the injury and the evil ? A contrary courfe may have fatisfied the Right Hon. Gentleman, who thought fit to continue Mr Trotter in office, left his difiniffal might prejudice his charader ; and this, after Mr. Trotter had cnnfeffed his own mlicondue, and was, to the knowledge of the Right Hon. Gentleman, throwing ever y obfinsflion in the way of an inquiry, neceffary to the attainment of the ends of juftice.-- ; But, if the Right Hon. G e ntl eman t h oug h t i t r i g h t to continue and encourage Mr. Trotter, under fuch circumftances, why has he difmiffed him now ? The vote of the Houfe, on Monday night, only related to Lord Melville ; but, wi.h regard to Mr. Trotter, adhuc firbjirdice Gr 0. His cafe is now precifely in the fame !late in which it was then, and requires the fame tendernefs and delicacy. To account, then, for this change of condigt, I can only fuppote that the Right Honourable Gentleman feting the impreffinn which the vote has made, and the fatis fadion which it has given, has yielded to the public voice. Having laid thus much, in jitflice to my Hon. Friend, I will now add, that, however I may fubjed myfelf to the fame cenfure, and (hall be charted with hitternefs and rancour, I cann-t fit ft lent in the Houfe, and hear unfounded panegyrics be. flowed upon Lnrd Melville. I k..nw nothing in the character of Lord Melville that ffinuld entitle him to tendernefs, in a cafe of convided guilt. is it becaufe he has enereated the emoluments of office to an extent beyond any of his predeceffors? Is it becaufe he has obtained a grant to Lady Melville, of the Fcws of Fife, with the arrears due at the time, without can fidering how thefe arrears flood at the time, and whe• ther they were not the public money ? for it is now underftood, that the amount of !bele arrears was not known at the time, and that the grant was made with out knowing its extent. is it becaufe he has added tgoo!. a year to his Nary at the Admiralty ? Are thefe his claims to tendernefs, and his titles to pane gyric ? But, it is laid Lord Melville never was a hit ter adverfary ; that he has employed in the army and in the navy, perfons who differed from him in political principles. In what cafe have Minittcrs in his fituation not done fo ? Could he retitle to employ fuch men as Bir George Saunders and Admiral Keppel, becaufe they differed from him in political fentiments ? I do remember,: however, that, at a time when this Country was in great danger, when its very exigence was at flake, a propaition for the defence of the country, the molt economical for Government, and the moil liberal and foirited, on the part of the per fon propofing ; I tneanan offer , from Taviflo c k, t o 'ile a body of men, was l'ejeded by the Noble Lord, becaufe he knew the late Duke of Bedford was to command them. I do not mention the circumflance in compliment to the memory of my much-lamented friend. I have related the anecdote only to flaw how unfounded thole panegyrics are upon the libera lity of Lord Melville. There is another tale, which proves how little his Lordfhip deferves the praife of never fuffering his conduit to he influenced by party feeling ; I mean the difmiffal of the Dean of Faculty of Advocates of Edinburgh (the Honourable Henry Editing), the brother to my worthy friend who fits near me ; two men, to whom, if any extraordinary exertions of virtue were neceffary, I do not know any to whom 1 fhould look with more confidence.— But the cafes of Sir Charles Grey and Sir John Jervis (Lord Grey and Earl St. Vincent), have been referred to as inliances of the great liberality of Lord Melville. I have taken the trouble of looking over the Journals for this cafe, in which the Right Hnnourable Gentleman has made fo much parade of the fupport received by the parties from Lord Melville. Did he do fo not knowing their cattle to be jug There two meritorious Officers, it appears, when on (ervice in the Weft Indies, had remedied the blunders of the Adminifbatinn, of which the Noble Lord was a part ; but, in fo doing, had made themfelves refponfible by undertaking a mealuie not. exadly within their inftruelions, and this is the lunation in which my Lord Melville makes a merit of his fupport. Now, Sir, having made thcfe obfervations, I mull allude to what has fallen from a Bank Direaor (Mr. Thornton). That Hon. Gen tleman admits th.st Lord Melville has been guilty of negligence and inattention in office. Sir, I can only fay, that the vote of Monday night went much far ther, and if the Hon. Gentleman thinks it did not charge a greater offence, he ought not to'have fup ported it. Now, Sir, I have no objedion to fay, that in confequence of what has fallen from the Right Hon. Gentleman oppofite (Mr. Pitt), and from the Hon. Gentleman who fits upon the fame fide of the Houle with me (Mr. Bankes), I have no with to prefs the Houle to a divifion. The Hon. Gentle man lays, we may do hereafter What is now pro poltd. I think Co too = and, what is more, I think we muff do fo. He adds, that we cannot yet know how the billinefs may turn out, and that it nr..r come to an impeachment. In this alfo I agree with him ; but I fear fome Gentlemen do not dikriminAte as they ought in the proceedings, which the cafe mantis. If the Attorney General is to be directed to take legal (legs for the recovery of the films whkit have been made from the public money, that is a civil procefs. If alfo feveral grants have been m.tde to Lord Melville, it may be necelfary to enquire on what grounds his Majefly has been induced to make them ; and if they have been made upon mifrepie rentations, they ought to be revoked. Tiler-, how ever, are all civil proceedings, and very dillind from the court, that fhould follow his contlud, conlidered as a breach of the law. Whatever comic then may be taken upon the civil fide of the quellion, I think the addrefs is the belt mode of Forifhing the criminal nroceedivgs. However, after the declaration of the Right Hon. Gentleman (NIT. Pitt), and made in the way it is, I have no objection to delay it; becant:. after Inch an affitrance, and from inch a quarter. I think there can he no danger of Lord Melville being placed in any office of unit. With regnard, Sir, to the punithment fought for, I find that, during the 45 years of his prefent Majefty's reign, there have been but two perfons upon whom the punifhment of remo val from his Majefly's Privy Council has been inflided, the Duke of Norfolk and myfelf.—Now, Sir, I may venture to fay for both of us, that we want no fuch companion as Lord Melville. In Ireland, no doubt, fome inftances have occurred. There is one cafe par. titularly, I mean that of my honoured and elieem cd friend, Mr. Grattan. In milt:qui:nee of the union, he comes into the fame lunation as the Duke of Norfolk and myfelf ; and, dicier , ire, though for our own parr, we did not objet to the company of Lord Melville, we do not with to introduce my elteemed and revered Friend, the profecutor of p lic abufes, the fupponer of public vn me, pre-emi nerd in purity, as he is in talents, to the company of Lord Melville. Afier the declaration of the Right lion. Gentleman, he admitted it was not polli ble that Lord Melville could be reftored ; and in that cafe the motion not being refl .- mg, he had nu objection to its being withdrawn. But admitting that, and fup. poling this condi to be taken, it may be %tor h con. fidermg how the cafe (lands, fuppofing Lord Melville veligned, and the bufinels to proceed no father. On Monday we voted the premifes. Does, then, the Hon. Member (Mr. Bunke!) mean to negative the conclu. iron ? Is that the courfe which the accurate mind of the Hon. Member approies ; that we &mid pro nounce Lord Melville guilty, but refute to call for judgment upon him ? Such would be the incontinency which the motion, if negatived, would involve; but if it be only withdrawn, tke cafe will not be to aukward. There may be alfo this further reafon for delay, that ComethinA may be expe&ed to be done in the mean time. l'be queition has made a greater ins preffipn upon the public mind, than any cafe that has occurred for many years. The public were grateful to the Houle for their con d u d, an d looked lip to them with joy and thankfulnefs. But was the Houle to be anxious only for their own charader, and to be inattentive to the honour of the Government and the Crown ? The Hoof- of Commons have proved themfclves the true ReprefentatiVes of the People, by exprefling their indignation at the conduct of Lord Melville; but not a tingle mark of difrpproba tion has been expo (Ted by his Majefly. No fuch dif approbation can be implied from the refignation of Lord Melville. The refignati..n of a Minilier may be the molt honourable at of his life. reigned Las fall en to my lot to be in o ffi ce , arid to have reigned more than once ; and I went next day to Court, feeling myfelf neither punifhed nor degraded, to pay my refpe&s and duty to my Sovereign. May not Lord. Melville do the fame ? Dearly as I love this Houk, as the fource of every great public benefit and ad vantage to the country; dearly as I love it, as the corner-none of the Contlitution, and the founda tion of our liberties ; I will not fay that it is more dangerous that the nation Ibould lofe its confidence in the Houle of Commons, than its confidence in the Throne: And is there not a danger that fuch may be the cafe, if it may be laid, that, upon a great que(li. n like thiF, the Houfe of Commons have done their duty, but hi: Majelly has been fitistied in a different manner ? Sir, this will not be a nine days wonder. From the impreffion which it has made upon the publi:, and the (late (1 ferment in whi:h the agitation of it may long keep the pub lic mind, will it be right, I afk, to enable thole per• fins, who may not be the bell diftuded towards the Monarchical part of our Contlitution, to draw a line between his M jelly and the Parliament ? I warn Minitterc of their duty to take care that no fuel/ len guage (hall be held, by leaving no pretence for it, or implicatingithe true interefts of the Throne. 'rutting, therefoie, that Minillers will do their duty, I have no objection that the motion Ilia old be I%l,lldt:inn, in the colifidence of a more comple;e aid fatist.taory explanation and conchifion at a future dr. ) ." Mr. WILBERFORCE was of opinion with his Hon. Friend (Mr. Banks) that for the prefent at kali the motion of the Honourable Gentleman ought to be withdrawn. This opinion, however, he had firmed, not in confcquence of any communication with friends, nor from attachment to any party, but from his own view of the whole cafe. He regretted that the mo tion had been made, but did n o t fay at the tame time that he would not vote for it, were the queltion put to the Houle. Whatever his opinions relpeding the difmiffion of Lord M. might he, this nrealute certain. ly had been rendered lets necefTary by the refignation of the Noble Lord. In regard to the reference ni..2e by the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Canning) tothc conilud of Lord Melville in the cafe of the two No ble Lords, whole conduit had been the fubjed of in quiry before the Houle, he admitted it did great ho nour to that Noble Lord; but he difapproved at the fame lime of the manner in which tkat circumnante had being Dated. The Hon. Member concluded, by entreating the Honourable Mover of the Motion, not to do away the hal pe etret of the V , to of the former evening, by atii_mpting to go farther than tome, he was perfuaded, would think it their duty to accompany kim. Governed by no popular reefing, he would not fay, whether he would or wou.d nos ' vote for the immure, but 'warmly urged the Hon.. Gentleman to withdraw his Motion. • Mr. FULLER was of opinion, that the whole bufmcfs would' be bell fettled by a Committee, and if any thing had been wrefted from the pockets of_ the people, hoped that the Gentleman would not rcl