Star. — London, England, 1805-03-22 00:00:00

PARLIAMENTARY PROCEEDINGS. HOUSE OF LORDS, THURSDAY, MARCH si. In the Appeal the Earl of Ifinnoul and others what the Mr Mr. Maule and others. the decree of the Court of Mk* Was affirmed. The itoyal Mail= Mitir MI was Tell a third time inA pqedi . Mr. Ai:scannas, and firers! other Members of the Hoofs of Commons, brought up the kopr Drawback Bill, she Exchequer Bill. Bill, the Mai Poling 1111. the Mk Exeife DM, the Mit Mak Bill and the Huffing Laws BM, and tome ethos IS., were kr& rally read a Bra time. Mr. TIQTTBIL, from die Conies Worsen of the Cottons, pre- Sented an Account of Arrean Ind Balances in the bands of the Colteeton on the sth of January Wt. Adjourned till to -morrow (this day.) HOUSE OF COMMONS. A Mirage from the Lords informed the Houk, that their Lord- Lips had agreed to the Royal Marine Mutiny BM, and to foreral aerate Ililin. Several of the hi& Revenue Bilk were read a third time. and paired -among which were, the MR Cullum Hill. the irll Bs elk Bill, the Poft Deice Duty. Stamp Duty, and Malt Duty Bilis. Mr. H. THORNTON gave notice that t043101T011 be Omani male to poftpene the day for ballotting a Committee on the Middlefex Elea inn, and for exchanging Lifts. Ste. A New Writ was ordered for Old Saran in the room at Ni cholas Vanettast, Ell. who has accepted of the We of Chief Secretary to the Lott Lieutenant of Ireland. The Small Pro:Mabry Note 818 was reed a thirdtime and rad. Mr. WOOLLIT, front the Trealiwr, prefeated fermi accounts reipeßsop the Nadal Debt er the Country, which were ordered to Ite printed. Mr. Baseman pot of hie meths refpeglies the Grand Cud et Ire land to the mat of May next. 111811 LUNATICS. Sir JOHN NEWPORT rofe to fobmit to the Houfe the motion of which he had fame time (we given notice, for leave to bring in a Bill to regulate the praaice in Ireland with regard to the confinement of lunatics and idiots. By the a7th of his prefent Majefty, the poor and lunatics of Ireland were con fined in the fame bourn, a prailice from which the molt diiireffing inconveniences had frequentlyrefnlted. He waited the appointment of dillina afylums for lu natics and idiots. The exiaing method of confine ment was only calculated for malefaaon, but not for lunatics. Proper care cannot be taken of lunatics, without feparate inflitutions. He had therefore to propofe a Bill for eftablifhing an afylum for each of the four provinces, to contain aso patients. There afylums to be in the central towns of the principal counties. The provinces to bear the expenc.e, which is to be impofed by afellnent, and a report to be made, from time to time, to the judges of alEze, of the management. funds, and whole concerns and fi tuation of the four afylums. He had bellowed much attention, for many years, on this rubjeet, and was perfuaded that•the meafure he was about to pro. pole, was one which the &nation of the public in- Rieutions in Ireland loudly demanded. Accordingly, he concluded by moving for leave to bring in a Bill for ellablithing Provincial Afylums for Lunatics and Idiots in Ireland. Colonel BAGWELL, in feconding the motion, thanked the Hon. Baronet for the pains be had taken to examine into the (tibial in quellion. There was a necetEty for the afylums. He went once to the gaol of Clonmell, to enquire refpetling this fubjea— from the bellowing and hideous noife of the Lunatics there, the ordinary tick were prevented from taking their natural Tea. After a lhort converfation, in es nation, of the wide of railing the funds for the M gloms, between Mr. Role, Sir J. Newport, Mr. Corry, and Mr. Fof ter, leave was given to bring in the JRISN ■ICHAIGI!. Lord ARCHIBALD HAMILTON brought for ward his motion refpeaing the Rate of the Exchange between Great Britain and Ireland. The delay in bringing this fubjea forward was partly owing to the various difpofitions made on recent occafions of the public bufinefs, and partly to the commotions among the Printers, from which the papers laid be fore the Honfe had experienced retardation. Every body knew that the Rate of the exchange between the two countries was in the worn imaginable fitua lion. A Committee had been appointed WI Sefflon to enquire into the flare of the exchange, and a Rrong report was made by that Committee on the fubjea to the Houk. Now he witted to bring the fubjea un der a fair and extenfive difcafion. It would appear, that no improvement had taken place in confequence of the labours of the 'Committee, for we were in the fame fituation, if not a worfe, as on the day of the report. As to the pares of the rate of exchange being fo much againa Ireland, the Irifh currency, which partial meafures bad depreciated. was one caufe ; but the great caufe was, that of the improper condoe of the Treafury of Ireland. The Treafury of Ireland had, when wanting to bring money over to that country from England, made a partial publica tion of its intentions, offered the negociation of the tranfaaion by public advertifement, and in every way Iharpened both the avarice of the jobber, and the' cupidity of the ufurer. The meafure adopted by the Treafury had produccd no good effea whatever.— The exchange was at tit per cent. or the average rate t a per cent. at the time the Irifh Treafury brought over the firfl part of the loan of laft year,but owing to mifmanagement it fell to par. When the notice of the Treafury was given to the Merchants of Dublin, of the loan being about to be brought over, the rate of exchange was, in fall, 13 per cent. The Merchants and Jobbers took their meafures accord ingly, and well knowing that the Got ernment mutt make its arrangements within a given tin3e, they held out till they brought the exchange to par. By this miF management on the part of the Treafury, the public was a lofer of 40,0001. on every million remitted to Ireland. The refolutions which he fhould have the ho nour to move prefently were, at leaft one of them, de vifed, in order that fuch a praitice Ihould not be conti nued. There were praftices of the Bank of Ireland,iohe rently calculated to injure the public. The Bank of Ireland would accept of no depofits of the Loans, ex cept Bank of Ireland notes or in fpecie. Where was there fpecie in Ireland ? The ready cant of Ireland was in counterfeit harps, and ire thillings ! He did not mean to infinuate, however, that the Bank might not take a profit. Far from that. But was it legal, regular, or fair, that the Commiffioners of the Trea fury fhould have the power of taxing the public with 40,0001. on every million remitted to Ireland from this country, a tax which, from well-known circum- Ilinces, was received by the Bank of Ireland as its own emoli.Ment ? All this was neither more nor lefs than the effeft of the method of bringing over the money, adopted by tbe Treafury of Ireland. The fituation of the Bank of Ireland was next to be con %wed. It had produced meta of the evils of the general fituation of that unfortunate country. The retiriaion on the calls payments of that Bank was the caulk of the national calamities Ireland had fo fatally undergone, from the depreciation of its credit and circulating medium. The profits of the Bank, in deed, had fullained none of that deterioration which all other interelts . in Ireland had faffered. A re markable change had occurred in this refpea, info much that whim in t 793 its flock was at from go to too per cent. in 1803 it was at from 107 to 117 per cent. He had no objection to fair profits. But if the Bank was not free from guilt, much more was owing to the long neglect of Government. As to the Bank reflriaion in itfelf, it was a meafure adopt ed without refleaion in Ireland; in this country, it was the refult of tome fober deliberation. He would here alk, under what circumfiances could they in Ireland expel to return to payments in fpecie ? The ' univerfil diffufion of paper money had caufed the total corruption of the coin of Ireland; and it ag gravated this evil moll poignantly, that the bate coin was notorioullygivien, but reafed to be taken in pay ment by the Government of Ireland. It was a ' known and lamented fad, that in Dublin, numbers were met with walking about the fireets with their hands and pockets full of bare metal, received by them in payment of their hard earned wages, but of which they could not, poor creatures, obtain the cir culation. Silver in Ireland was worth only nine fhil • Bugs in the guinea. Government ought to attend to this. Now, under thofe circumfiances, when the re liriaion on the Bank was continued unlimitedly, and without a remedy by Government, when the unfa vourable exchange continues without redrefi, when the bale coin, though not worth nine (billings in the guinea, is the current coin—amidli this defolation of the commercial interefts of Ireland, would the Houfe hefitate in adopting meafures preparatory to the cor ration of thofe enormous evils ? The Noble Lord concluded by moving his firft Refoluticrn. The SPEAKER put the queftion u R efolved, That it Is the opinion of t►is Hoare, that a confider able part of the fum raikd by way of Loin In Greet Britain, for the life of Ireland. In the year tlos, was remitted to the Irlfit Treafory in Bank of England Pelt Dills, was publicly advertifed by the Lords of the Treafury In Inked, and was, becaufe of fuels notoriety, negotiated at a rate of exchange touch lower than other fume drawn from England for the ale of Ireland.* Mr. FOSTER oppnfed the motion. It was a di• tett cenfure on the Irina Treafnry. When their con duit, and motives of their conduit, were known, they would not be thought to have merited cenfure. A large part of the Loan was Made in England, which was remitted to Ireland in November. On the 29th of Auguß be wrote to the Bank of Ireland, defying to know if they would bring over I aoo,oool. of the Loan, which would be remitted from Eng. land between November and January. The Gayer. nor and Direaors declined, and in their letter Rated, for their chief reafon, that If they thould be found to have interfered with the difcountr, an impreffion, very unfavourable to their charatter, would be made on the public mind. Th e irith Treafury ordered the money over in Bank of England Port Bills, but it was at theirjown diferetion to fix the rate of exchange. The exchange was then 13 per cent. The Treafury offered aoo,oool. at a fortnight's notice for r if per cent. ditionnt, yet, ftrange to fay, only the tam of 570,0001. was offered, fo that the public fervice was deficient 30h0001. in the fupply on that tranfattion.— Another offer was made of soo„000l. more at to per cent. and again only 170,0001. were offered. The I Treafury nest lowered the dircount to par, and got all it wanted. The Honourable Gentleman went through the table of exchange, in fuppon of his ar gument. An exchange between countries depends, as to its rate, on the whole of their money tranfac tions. There went out of Ireland 3,300,0001. and came into it 3,000,00011. Yet there was not more than a balance of soo,oool. againft the country in the anal times. And with regard to the exchange, net • that in the particular cafes fele&ed by the Noble Lord nor in any other cafe, was the difadvantage owing to mifmanagenient at t he Treafury—at leaft, he felt free to fay fo, in as far as he was himfelf concerned. The reftrietion of payments by the Bank of Ireland, in fpecie, was all the evil. Speculators in exchange availed themfelves of that, and of the other circuits fiances in the fituation of the country favourable to the views of the avaricious and rapacious. The de preciation of paper in Ireland was notorious, and was owing tothe over Hine by the Banks. In May, June, and July, the Bank lowered its iffues from 3,000,0001. to 2,700,0001. and the exchange fell—it raifed its iffues, and the exchange rote. In 1793, when the Banks broke, the over-true being thereby cured, the exchange righted, and found its level.— This was exemplified by hiftory. In the reign of King William, owing to the depreciation of the coin, the exchange with Holland was is per cent. againft this country. As, therefore, the rated exchange and de preciatiOn of money in Ireland, w.s owing to the over iffde of paper by the Bank, and as in all they did,. it was the with of the Consmigfioners of the Treafery of Ireland, that the money remitted by England thould have no other effea than mercantile tranfatlions have, he law no ground whatever for cenfuring the Treafury, or for the motion of the No ble Lord, and hoald therefore move the Order of the Day. Lord HENRY PETTY, in rinds to fupport the motion of his Noble Friend, felt great fatisfaftion in concurring in opinion with the Right Honourable Gentleman, refpeaing the fatal confequences of over Me* by the Bank of Ireland, and the neceffary de preciation of money ; and if be could not exculpate the Treafury of that country from blame, in the Iran. Cations on which his Noble Friend's motion was founded, yet be was quite willing to own, that of molt of the meafures of the Right Hon. Gentleman, fine. his coming into office, he approved ; and above all, of his beneficent labours for the effeftual and eco nomical railing of the revenue of Ireland. The de parture, however, of the Treafury, from the ufual mode of bringing over the money, was what had the effee of turning the exchange againfl Ireland. To be fine, this effee was nominal and tranfitory, more than real and permanent. The fair way to try the propoiitien of his Noble Friend, u by confidering how the difference ftood between ordinary loans and loans in which the Treafury had interfered by extra ordinary methods. A half per cent. was put on a per cent. on loans, owing to the manner of the Tres fury interfering. The rate of exchange was owing to that interference. This was an evil.. He infifted that taking all the loffes together, incurred by the public, men/ to the departure ofthe Irifh Treafury from the of ti the amount of 40,0001. Rated by his No ble Friend, was not exaggerated. He found fault with theTreafury of Irefand not attending to the pro vifions of the Refponfibility Statute. He thought the mifchief was greatly owing to the pahial publi cation cite Treafury had made, of the remittances comingg from this country ; and afked, if h was not as if the Chancet.or of the Exchequer for England were in going from the'Honfe that night, to take and die tribute money to the piffengers onWeßminfier-bridge, inßead of dittributiog it over the country ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER danced in opinion from the Noble Lord. It was not filch a cafe as that fuppofed one of Weßminfier bridge. Here Was no indilcriminate wage of the public money. Though a partial benefit might have accrued to a few individuals, no degree of notice could have altered the effeet. The inordinate ifue of paper, and confequent depreciation of the circulating medium, formed the main caufe of the difadvan• tageous rate of the exchange, which, more pr , perly, was, that the paper medium of the country was not at the fame value as that of the other. One caufe neceffarily was the large remittances. The argument of the two Noble Lords went to fay, that what we could not have got at to per cent. we fhould have got at 13 per cent. It was the fame as raying, that the Treafury of Ireland could have forced the ex change. Now, as the ground of charge againa the Treafury was not made out, he fhould feel it to be his duty to oppofe the motion of the Noble Lord. , Lord HENRY PETTY explained. Mr. FOX was happy to hear the Honourable Gen- tleman concur in the opinion, that much of the evil now fought to be remedied was owing to the over iffues of the Bank of Ireland. He felt likewife happy to find abandoned, the fantaßical opinion of laft year, that the depreciation was not of the paper, but owing to the price of gold having been railed. The excel Eve iffue was no doubt a caufe of the difadvan tageons rate of the exchange ; but the new method of bringing the money into Ireland had an effetl which the old had not. If it were believed that the objea was to lower the exchange, that might be a politic manoeuvre, but it was far from being a judi cious expedient. He fupported the motion of his Noble Friend. Mr. LEIGH denied that the rate of exchange was owing to an over iffue of Bank paper. Such was his opinion, and he witted the public to be informed that it was ; becaufe, otherwife, an undue prejudice might be imbibed on the fubjeft. Mr. ALEXANDER jußified the Treafury of Ire. land. Mr. J. LATOUCHE fupported the motion. He imputed the whole blame of the difadvantageous Rate of the exchange to the Treafury of Ireland. Mr. FOSTER explained. He would not admit that the latter was inferior in utility or favings to the former mode of bringing over the money to Ireland from England. The old mode was kondemned by the Committee of lait year. Mr. GREY Paid, that what was condemned by that Committee was the interference of the Treafury of Ireland. Near 200,0001. of the loan oflaft year was re remitted in the ordinary way, and had no bad effeCt. By the meafnre the Treafury took it placed itfelf in the fituation of a man who thould have property to fell, and Should advertife that he mutt fell it on a particu lar day ; the obvious confequence of which would be the depreciation of his property, from a knowledge beforehand of his neceffity. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER infilled that the circumftances of the times would have had the fame effed on any other Bills, drawn in any other way, when known that they were for the public fervice. Sir WILLIAM PULTENEY remarked, that when large funs were remitted, the exchange mutt be affeCted. The fubjea of the over iffue had not been fuificiently inveßigated. As to the depreciated Rate of the paper of Ireland, it was a fad, of which feveral Gentlemen might not be aware, that the notes of the Bank of Englatid were at a difcount of 3 per Cent. in Ireland. Mr. HENRY THORNTON [poke at fome length againft the motion. Lord ARCHIBALD HAMILTON replied, and his mOtion was then negatived without a diviGoa. REDUCTION OP THE MILITIA. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER -4{ I rife, Sir, in order to fubmit to the Houfe the motion concerning our Militia force, of which I have given notice about ten days fince. The obj . eti of the motion which I ball lay before you to-day is that of providing a meature, the cited of which (hall be the leaving the Militia at what, by elating flatutes, it wonl4 gradually be ; namely a force of 40,000 men for England, and Bono for Scotland ; and this effed to be produced immediately, inflead of pro ducing it by flow degrees. By an Ad of the Legif lature, with the natore of which we are all familiar, the men ate allowed to volunteer from the Militia to reduce it to the Randard at which it permanently Rood. At prefent the Militia for England and Scot land is 70,000, or between 650,000 and 70h000. By the redudion of it to the permanent Randard, it will be for England about 4.t,000, and for Scotland 8000. The total returns include rank and file, but by the Ad of Parliament only the private men can go to eftimate of numbers: it is therefore neceffary to efli mate the corporals. Thofe amount to 2,300 on the reduced eflablifhment, to that we (hall have on the reduced eltablifhment of the whole Militia for Eng land and Scotland about st,ooo men, rank and file. The full ellabliffiment being 68,000 at prefent, the difference from the excets will furnifh an augmenta tion of 17,000 men to the Regular Army. I will not, Sir, go into the detail of there objeds of national ho nour, fecurity, and glory; towards the attainment of which fuch an acceffion to our force cannot fail to contribute a great, comprehenfive, and eflential aid. There can be no circumaances of the country in which it ought ndt to infpire a proud fentirnent, that we have had it in our power to form fuch an availa ble refonrce towards the increafing the efficient erength of our Regular Army. 11 To have a dig - potable army, is a great eflential article in our fubfifling meafures for the vindication of the national character, for upholding our Rate and laws, for the honour of the Crown, and the fafcty of the people. - KNo"t only is this a force eminently clearable in our own particular fitnation, but it is in the higheit degree a force we mull with e:tenft►cly to create in the fltuation of Europe, and, above all, riot* V., r e hopes which every bonen man mutt cher ith, of 11l ing to the world, that if the Iword th an iiiif•-riunal. ' be in the end the only arbiter of our differences o our enemies, we porefs ar anti formidable in non bers, and tremendous in point of vigour, courag,. and energy. In another view, the acquifition to our force, 'lf filch a body of men as that of which I fpeak, is nod! important. It is not a body of 17,w, raw, untlim. • plined, inexperienced T otin g men and boys, bin . trained foldiers ; men who yield to none iii Ore doe rafter of true Engli(h fpirit and bravery; men who have the old blood of the land in their .vein,, who are proud of their country, and world lay down . th-ir lives in her caufe. An augmentation of our regolat force, by fuch troops as thole, I need not rental of far higher value than numbers. In trith. value of fuch an acquifition to our permanent thia tary eßabliffiment, will furpafs molt , if not ail -.; our later meafures for increafing our means of fence, fecurity, or annoyance : and I have no if , t but that this fentiment is very general!) felt amon, é more reflating of that illuflrious Ctoflitto ionat Po 4 , Yet great as is this acquifition, to obtain :.oft • is the purpofe. Sir, of the notion which I fh ill this night conclude by offering to you ; and much as the fentiments of all fades of the Houle concur in think ing, and not only in thinking, but in believing, that fo to add to our difpofable force as 17,000 o en from the Militia would add ; I, Sir, fhould not have taken the refolution, which I have felt it to he my duty to take, in bringing the prefent fubjed before the Houle and the country, if I thought that it would be at teetded with injury to the Militia. I am, !or one, a perfon who thinks that the zeal of themilitia man ought not to be damped ; that this fpirit ought nut to be reprefled ; that his attachment to his fervice timid ' not be lowered, and I Ihould be as forry if the pride of the officer, the honell love of his conflitutional army, that fpirit railed by an enlightened and gallant devotion to our country, were by any meafures of mine impaired. But let us fee, Sir, in what fituation the Militia Rands. We have formed an opinion that 40,000 for England, and 8000 for Scotland, are fufficient num bers at which for our Militia to Rand. I will not now examine the grounds of this opinion ,• but without doubt, it is the recorded opinion of Parliament. Now thofe who thought that force sufficient when its num bers were adjulted, and who now with that the coon- try may have a difpofable force, will hardly be of opinion that fuch a force ought to be locked up from difpofable fervice. a The prefenr eftablif h ment of the Militia is snore than its fair proportion of the army ; and interfering with the means of recrillting the Regular Army is I not compatible with that wile policy on which it is founded. It has, however, been decided, with the concurrence of that refpatable body the Militia Of ficers themfelves, that a large force cannot be kept up confiftent with the principle of the Militia ; and if a large force were attempted to be kept up, the dif ficulty of obtaMing fuch Ogicers as are qualified to ferve in it, would loon bring about a partial diffolo. tion and thinning of its ranks. In fart, all this is ac knowledged. Nay, more, I have reafon to think ' that it will be confelled by every intelligent, liberal perfon, who has properly turned his attention to this fubjea, that he is the bell friend of the Militia whole obje*l is to bring it within bounds. " But this is not all. We have palled an Alt, de creeing that vacancies than not be filled up in the Militia, nor its regiments brought to confitt of more than the old eflablifhment rate. " If, therefore, we are in a Situation that we can not augment that force, or permit the vacancies in its regiments to he filled up, where no regular pro portion fubtills between its companies and battalions, or between thefe and its general economy and fyf. tern, where regiments, nuw in fkeleton, can on the prefent plan never acquire life or healthful vigour, ought the Militia not to be brought to what is de finable ? Befides, we have the other motive, the fearcity, according to the proportion by the Aft, of officers of adequate fortune, and due charalter and local influence, to form the fublluting numbers in permanent regimental array. There are more than Soo commiffions for the Militia at this moment ly ing unfilled up, becaufe of the paucity of gentlemen to fill them with the requifite qualifications. The fluituations in the fyflem afford further motives to the compreffiun of its numbers. And will any man fay, that while the nrilit a is in a (tate in which no thing can be liable, and that the perfons who com mand will have the option of their men, while the men themfelves are feveral of them difpofed to ren der their fervices ufefully to their country in the line ; in fuch circumftances, would it be becoming to withhold from the nation the benefit of a great furplus force ? But, (fill more, the perfons who conttitute the excels of the Militia can only be ren dered ufeful by transferring them to the line. Why, then, if thefe conflitute the excels, and that the gra dual reduftion is not of utility evci, where it mutt' operates, and where the gradual procefs avails, is. Dill infufficient to yield what is wanted, I ;tile if the:: can be a fircmger cafe . ? and if we ought not, by an efficient meafure, at once to draw off the excels of the one force into the other ? In the Situation of de army, what is now done gradually fhould, be dnr: l , immediately. We have experience of the gradual operation ' • which is this, that we have gradually re duced the Militia in nothing that can bz lenftbly pt.t ceived. • • 44 In regard to time, the prefer.t is the moment when we ought to propofe the meaflzre ; (ince now is a moment when the zeal of the private men is ar• dent to ferve their country in the way that fhall be judged moll conducive to its interells, fecurity, ho noun, and glory. And it is an afcettained truth, that this fentiment of the live of our country does at this moment animat.: every heart. 44 I am free, however, to own, Sir, that the grnurds of the prefent meafure are fuch as I underhand to b• not agreeable to the feelings of many refpcaable per- Eons holding commands in the Militia. lam in the utmoit degree &firm,' of confulting the feelin g s loch undoubted lovers of their country, for in doing fo I know I conlult my duty to the public ; tnd I do with and purpofe to leave the Militia in a loch as thall not offend the pride of thofe individuals, as well as realize the hopes and expala. lb+ tions of the country. 46 Now baying ("Wed this, I know not that •!—te is occafion for much detail. Sere/Item thouland men I