Star. — London, England, 1805-04-26 00:00:00

!eft of nttiona: abufes. The Right Honourable Gen -rc to him limed al& fenfible of the ge . .. which had been awakened through the He had that night, prematurely in one 1..-dily in another, given notice of a mo w; A he unqueftionably meant in forme tape to wifhes of the people. In doing fo, how. • , not the Right Honourable Get:U*l;llllWe- Inc: bufinefs out of the hands of other Hoooor -11.t u .1 - .tlernen, who bad already given notice of f „..1 ~:mentions ? That was not a novel proltice, now • • first time adopted by the Right Honourable ••.eman. It happened Come years ago to him • • • usVhitbread), on which occafion the Right Hon. t. ••'-man took a bufinefs out of his hands, but ne e : &LI any thing under it. The Right Honourable C , _iitleman had indeed given notice of a much more estenfive motion than had yet been propofed ;—bat 'W.:ther be bad done fo in confequence of bearing di .1 fuch an intention bad been declared in another quarter, and wilted to take it nut of their hands for the purpofe of doing it away, he fhould not at pre fent pretend to judge. tie new Committee was ap pointed, he hoped it would be charatterifed by equal fidelity with that which had dillinguilbed the Com milfioners for Naval Inquiry. The Right Honour able L;entlemait had exprelled a doubt it there elat ed any lavifb or improper expenditure in the Military p.:::ment. On that fabled, he (Mr. Whitbread) en:ertained no doubt. He was convinced that in the Military Department as grofs a (yam of peculation and plunder (idled as had already in part been dif. coveted in the Naval expeadimre. An Honourable Gentleman, a Friend of the Noble Lord, had, in vin dicating him from thg prefent charge, aliened that he pottetred opportunities in ano:her department of making an immenfe and rapid fortune, without any chance of deteftion. That Hon. Gentleman was well acqnairited with the truth of what he noted : and was it to be fuppofed after what we had feta, that (itch opportunities did will; and that too, with out the potfibility of detedtion, that no advantage was taken of them 1 The thing was hardly to be looked for. The fira motion which he mould now fubinit to the copfideration of the Houfe was for a WO Com mittee, for taking o fartiter confideration the tenth Report off he Commilioners of Naval Inquiry. There were fill Anne Ot t pins in that Report, on which be whited that farther inquiry &add take place.— It was not his intuition to ent:r at any length into what pelted on the Lill debate on the fubjea, farther than to fay, that he thought the Right Honourable Gentleman oppofite had not paid that proper re• fpell to that Houfe, and to the Commanners ing under that authoritr, which might have been espetted, in not difiniXhg a perfon who had refuted to anfiver the quethons put to him, when called on tinder an AS of Parliament to give evidence. Would it be maintained that every witnefs was to be entitled to decline anfwering any queftion which might be put to him on the pretence that it might eliminate himfelf ; and that the judge was not entitled to ad', in what refpeft, and to afcertain whether the allega tion was real or feigned t The Right Honourable Gentleman himfelf attually condemned Wilfon, and condemned his own cooduft by the apology he now made for both. He now confeffes that the clouts of the AR of Parliament, does not apply to Willon.•-•• According to his own account William tells him, and be now tells the Houfe, that Will in was the ;nitro stunt and tool of Trotter. Would Ins being fo evolve him in legal, or even moral guilt, to as to mare bim from anfwering queftions t The pretence was ridiculous, it was to fcteen his principal. not )hi nfelf: for, is being merely a tool, any answer he might have made, might have g me to etculpate, but could not criminate himfelf. Equally well might the printer of the Ramp on which the order was wait :en, have refuted anfwering any quetti.,n whi c h mi g ht have been put to him, lett he [hoold criminate him felf. Another Hon, Gentletnan had been much of fended at an esprefkin which had fade* 6nm the honourable Pre6dent of the Baud of Inquity, that ~; r.~i ... nt h be took blame to himfelf for not having committed Wilton to prifon. He hoped that Hon. Gentleman would silted on the night when the vote •ot thanks was to be moved to the ConimilLiners of Naval In quiry, and would then date what he had alledged that night. that in confequence of the declaration, the Hi/scarable Prefiriont yap' to be difmrffed from his Stuation. He (Mr. Whitbread) declared, that had be been in the place of the Hoinittrahle Baronet, he would have committed not only Wain. but Sprott afro.; and Co. he hoped, would every Cum :ll6mm of Inquiry feel himfelf inclined to aft. It was nut his with to trefpats on the time of the Houfe, and be Mould, therefore, conclude by moving his silk motion, fie the appointment of a feleft Cnnunit. tee. to stake farther inquiry into the matters con. gained in the Tenth Report of the Commiffioners of Eaval Inquiry. and to report to the Houfe. The CHANCELLOR'M the EXCHEQUER role, not to oppofe the appointment of a Seleffemn- Educe. but from a wills to clear himfelf from the charge of having prematurely given notice of a mo. Lion on any particular fubjeft, and thcreby taken it out of the hands of another Gentleman. He fpoke tow in the pretence of the Hon. Gentleman aluded to, and be appealed to him, if the notice which be gave was not eaprefily conditional, that if be (Mr: Litt) did not, on an early day after the recd . . ' bring furwaid filch a motion, he (Mr . Giks) would. When, at an earlier period of the Set 'm, the Hon Geode. than (Mr. Giles) moved for leave to Wring in a Bill tor c ntinuing the powers of that Board, what was his (Mr. Pitt's, ground of objeflion ? Was it that the pc, i.),1 &mid not be extendad t Q2i.e the contrary. .--He allowed that full time ought to be given diem for tinifhing their invelligatiens, and his only objec tion was, that it would be it .mattn e to enlarge the periods:it ;hcl continuing in uttice, at Co early a petard of the &Choll a _ till Once it was afeei mined whether the ptefent hel lion might not afford them left:tient rime to complete their inquiries. If they were not likely, at a more advanced period of the leffion. to be able to complete :heir bufinefi before thd end af it, he pledged hin.felt taco to move foe the enlargement of their pane Now, as only one additional Report had fusee been made, while it was du ed that other ohj..ffs of inquiry dill remained; he felt it both his duty and his inanition to mole for *mending the pea ind of their continuance. And, however Misch he Conlsfred I fell to lie one of thole who did declare tr-At there were pails of their condell of which be c4ald not approve, he RBI felt k hi. duty tofu', that they tArght iv amine*. In chit Cact os. be tuba* ted to the candbur of the %see, that there seas no ground whatcrer for charging him with having taken the boa:raft alit of the hands of any other Hnn.Gen• tkrnan. There was anothgr part of the Hon. Gen tleman's fpeech,in which his sentiments had been mifreprefented. He thought in the department in. to the nnuiagement of which invkiiigation had be* made. they had difeovered praitices and mAlverfations of which they could not approve, it would Ise proper to make fuch inquiries into every branch of the :cre me, as thould go to thew, either that in other de partments they did not exia, or, if they did, that It was the determination of Parliament to take fuch mralbres,as fbould Meet and preventthemin future. He did not fay that none fuck esilied. He only faid, that it rani prove fatisfaticay to the public that the fai thoold be afcatained. In In great and expen five an efiablaltment as that of Great Britain, in the midi of the perilous times too, which we had of late years to enc °tinter, it was hardly to be expeited, that come ails of improper management would not prefent thenifelves. He was anxious, however, that the inveniration thould be gone into with temperance, moderation, and a regard - Tor the public good.—The fault motives which made him think the general Cub jell one peculiarly deferring of attention and invelli gation, to be condulted on the immutable pi inciples of )(Mice. induced him heartily to concur inihe ap pointment of a SeleEt Committee, to confider farther 1 the fubjea of the Tenth Report. He was particu larly anxious for a mon minute inveßigation into that part of it. in which, according to the Itatements of the Honourable Gentleman, he himfclf (Mr. Pitt) was .implicated. On that ,fubjeft, he was eager that the Honourable Gentleman would bring forward every' thing in his power. He hoped that in the man!. years of his life which had been devoted to the public fer vice, he might prefume, without flattery to himfelf, to think that he haJ fo conduEled himfelf, as to evince that he was beyond any corrupt or fordid motive.— Far he was, however, from wilbing to rely in a charge like the orefent on charafter. He had no de fire whatever to fcreen himfeif from inquiry, but to- licked it, as the greaten CO our which could be be. flowed on him. He, therefore, approved of the mo tion of the Honourable Gentleman, fo far as he ten d.:r Rood it.—The words, however, he thought were too general, and he fubmitted, that the objeets to he referred to the Committee, ought tl be more fpeci ally defined. l'he Honourable Gentleman had on a former night, alluded to an intention of moving that the Attorney General be !nitroEked to commence a profecution againft Lord Melville id a Court of Law. Now, he apprehended, it could hardly be the objet of this Committee to examine into the participation of Lord Melville, in a crime which was afterwards to be taken cognitence of in a fuit brought by the Attorney General. If a Bill of Difcovery was after wards to be had againß him, it could not be the ob jai of the Honourable Gentleman in this Committee to lead an examination, which (hould leave to inßruft them how they were afterwards to proceed in the civil fnit. The Right Hon. Gentleman then Paid, that he did not regard whether it was expreffrd in the motion or not, if it was underßood that fuch were the mean ing of the power. given to the Committee ; and con cluded by propAng an Amendment That the Committee fbould be empowered to inquire Into the particular endemic° of the Naval Money to other parpoks, and alto to confider the Kequifitions made to the Chancellor of the kachcquer, or to any of the Commilfioners of his Majelly's Trea• fury, as to the iffuing of Money, and as to the NM doe to the Crown by the late Mr. Jellico. Mr. FOX Raced. were the Houle to manta the Attorney General to commence a profeeution agaioß Lund Melville on any particular point, if it would not be proper that that (tumid alfo form a part of the In quiry of the Committee ? There wa, another point which he.thought would not go with propriety to the Committee, but would be better difcuffed in that Houfe. and that was not a elimination, but an ad monition to the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Can, fling) on his continuing Mr. Wilfon in office. This naturally led hips to mama, that it was not by the Houfe going into an liquiry on the Tenth Report alone ; on the Abtilks in the Military Department ; or in all the Departments, that they could perform their duty. They could do their duty only by going into date laquitses.ferionfly, and swith an intent to perfevere. If they were to go into Inquiries, let them [hew their finierity by the perfons whom they chafe of the Committee. Perfons like the Commiftoners of Naval Inquiry, of fidelity, ability, and above all, courage ; who had not Ihrunk Irons their duty, even when it called on them to expofe one of the molt powerful men in this country. If they were for in quiry, let them endeavour, if potable, to get men equal to thefe Commitfioners. If they had to employ the Attorney General to profeetne. they could not doubt, from what they had teen of 'him, he would not be a very willing advocate. He had no doubt the very petfons who had ezpreffed an opinion againft the COMlnilfioneis of Naval Inquiryi would Rill be of opinion that they ought to be continued 1 yet this they would do not willingly: He did not Same the Right Hon: Gentleman (Mr. Pitt) for being the friend of Lord Melville, yet he could not but think it torforto sate, that he &mild be the perfon to,move for a Com mittee on the other fubjefts of inquiry. If the Com mittee had been to be moved lot by fume Gentlemen near him—by any perfon, he fpoke in an abarisa (cafe, not on the Treatury Bench. he thought it would have been better, moie creditable; and more the tool. When a Minifler, under whole Adminiftra, titrlt all the mifinanagement and peculation has taken place, has the mortification to find that the delin quent is not a perfon remote, but hit own neareft and d w elt colleague. be cannot be the molt proper per fon to move a Conimittire to take cognizance of the nsalvetfations. He had no doubt he would move proper men. But, would he have named the Com n3 .&nec. of Naval Intiniey ? Unfortunite r ly, this could not be prevented ; but Rill the Hods were called on to proceed with the vet/ter Caution and cir, cuosfpeilliOn and, to far as they.cPuttit to fee that Inqpiry of this kind was not covered under ilia The of the Minißer for the time, The CHAaCELLOR oldie EXCHUWER ex. plaiped and Laid. that he withod to exclude - no .. .pad ortfie inquiry, but. that "Web Okla; 4e made the fulsjea of legal eramination: If the order of the ask inns were %iota, and the leabd.r4 Lai *ii would Wade all r. wilbed. • • • Mr. WHIIItitEAD explained: that ha hid 10 with to do Airy thing !monthlong withistalti..' As ; however, the rincipal *jell end*, public ih• the ap• pointing du "). Wit tiik bream it . Wald Melville's participation in the peculation. be would rather allow the other 'notion. for an ;nitration to the Attorney General, to la) over, and confine him felt to the fit a "notion. Mr. SHERIDAN was of opinion that they could nc.t with any propriety proceed at the lime with a legal profecution. and with farther inquiries, by a Committee, and that, therefore, all legal proceedings ought to be delayed till the Committee, now propof, ed to be appointed, ihould have made its report. He could certainly have no ohjeilion to the meafure pro poled by the Right am. Gentleman (Mr. Pitt) for continuing the CoMminion of Motel Inquiry, and for appointing others to inveliigate the other departments of the public expenditure. Butt, however willing he wacto fee any meafute of this kind promoted, he could not fee, without alarm, any difpolition on the part of that Right Hon. Gentlemen to appoint fuch Commit:Goner'. . He withed the motion to have ori ginated in Come other quarter, and it was not his fault if that notice had not been long ago given for that purpOfe, and which he now thought there was rearmn to regret. Indeed, this notice, he under- Rood, was to have been given to•day, had it not been thus anticipated. The Right Hon. Gentleman might have as a veafon, perhaps, for his acceding to the appointment of a fekß Committee, according to the motion of his Honourable Friend, that he him• felf. (Mr. Pitt). had been implicated in the char. gee of the Tenth Report, and was anxious, there fore, that every fair enquiry &mid be made. The . motive, it mull be allowed, was extremely honour able, but till that inquiry WAS made, he was, in tome meafure, on his trial, and, therefn,e, by no means the &tea perfon to propufe the motion fur another comrniffinn.—But he urged another argument, of ftitl stealer weight, againti that Right Honourable Gentleman's nominating the Committee prupofed by his motion, which evidently mull arife from the na ture of the objeas of inquiry. The condo& of the Right Honourable Gentleman, himfelf. k way ari. dent, would be iuv,ilved in that inquiry, whether it regarded the variour departments of the army, or the management of the Excheqner. It was, therefore, a very grave quellion with him, how far it was ad miffible fur any appqintment of that nature to origi nate in that quarter. The Right Honourable Gen tleman might think it a popular meafure. It was making the mar perhaps, of a cafe of necellity, and taking the merit of propoling what he could not prevent, but mull certainly, at bell, be confidered as ayery forward Rep. Mr. CANNING reminded the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Whitbread) of a former wild:Goa he had made —that of being ready to co-operate with his Right Honourable Friend in any meafure that had a ten dency to promote the objet he had in view. Hie Right Honourable Friend had no delign of delaying the inquiry ; he was only of opinion that, if it was the intention of the Honourable Gentleman to !ROTC for a legal profecutinti, it would be proper to give that motion precedence .of the other. The pro priety of this arrangement was obvions. For thofe perfons who ;vete to be fohjeded to legal inquiry were not to be corded to give any anfwer be fore the Committee that might tend to criminate them before a court of jultice. Such an arrange ment, therefore, would defeat the very end of any legal proceeding, and cramp at the fartie time the in. curies of the Committee. as thofe pertons were the only evidence from whom they were to defies their information. In regard to the amendment pi-goofed by his Right Honourable Friend. he entirely con curred in thinking that the Committee ought to be confined to their proper °Ned, and not to interfere, in fuch points as Ibould be judged neeeffary lo be re ferred to a court of jullice. If therefore, the motion for a legal inquiry were 61.0 fixed, and the object or objects of that leg al invetligation determina4, the Committee would have the advantage of kalogriug to what objeas they were to confine .their exertions, and would be relieved from that part of the (Ojai which would come under the cognizance of a court of jullice. From the difpufitiun the Hopeuliable Gentleman feemed to be in the night this lubjed was before the Houle, he did not think he could have any objedion to Inch an arrangement. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHIV be R. difclaimed every idea of being implicated in any charges adduced by the Tenth Report, and dent lenged any Gentleman to point out a tingle pefisge in the Report that implicated him in any Wee& Mr. FOX admitted that there was no pottage. to be lure, that diredly implicated the Right Honour able Gentleman s but the article relative to the mo ney for Secret Service. though it did not mention him by name, would certainly lead to a decifion how far that Right Honourable Gentleman was involved. Mr. GREY was of opinion that it would be ino poffible to catty on. the two inquiries together; and to give up the queltion entirely to the Attorney Ge , feral, was giving tip ton much. There was pre tumptive evidence, he thought, for concluding that Lord Melville had participated in the emoluments diverted from the public fervice, and he had therefore been of opinion at one time that ,it would be better to refer this part of the bonnet's to the Attorney Ge neral, and to appoint a Committee to go on with the other objedi,of inquity. Should the Houfe, how ever, be of opinion that the whole bufinefs floadd be referred to the Committee previous to any legal in quiry, he would williogly accede to it. The MASTER of the ROLLS contended, that the rAmtleot the quellion was referred to law, all in vtkigation on the part of the Houfe mita neceffarily t cafe. They might previoufty difcufs the grounds on which they Ibould refer the quellion to Law ; but there they behoved to flop, and leave the emit of kW wits own operation, He agreed with the Ho nourable Gentleman who fat down, that the mode of proceeding which had been fiat fuggetbed Would be the belt. Kr. rcot thought it would occopf leaf! time fird to *time to a Refolution oefpeding the Committee, and then to proceed to the other view of the fubjed. The MASTER of the ROLLS explained. Mr. EINNAIRD argued that the objet of his Smoot-able Friendlies not only to efted the rellito. ton of the public money, burto _find grounds alfii for an ingicaehatent ; and that,l4l.lrouiti much tattier give up my Celerence to the Attorney General than ant Inspiachtnent, fl Ould &Scant ground appeter_for that Meatme. 1.1 lamed, the- Houle to pantie be. fore it conic') 4csit l Al• The CO% BeAvarehle dentleM* bad not .thooght,p . roper to lidttife his Mat, Jetty to Cwils toniittle, though, io fone me l ro.e. Itr'tte c i 4 ;1• was of the greaten comeq.ience, therefore, to t k _ . fuch mean b alb mi A lit completely :diet LAM the ;.l:. tine tif hi, guilt. • .. . . . Mr. G. - I'ONSONBY did not think that a I •a. triAl would be equAlly pro& Tve of difctivet y . a Committee. Suppofe the A t.irts-y General th .tl4l move in a court ()flaw that accounts be given iela - ive to the public money, it would be compete nt to de mur, under an apprehention that otherwile tbt party might criminate themfehres ; and if he might jut.e from what had fallen fri.rn the Right Honourable Gentleman, he would not be very forward to objet to it. Suppore Mr. Trotter charged uo interelt of Lord Melville, or twenty or thirty theufand pounds at a time, which would be involving Lord Melville in a participation of emoluments, how could a Court of Law get at the truth ? A Committee, however, ml;ht do fornething, as they could avail themfelves of evidence that might not be ftrituly admiffible in a court of law, or that a court of law might not hare in their power to call for. He deprecated the idea of the Houk tying themfelves up, and putting it out of their power ever to refunre it again, whatever far ther light they might receive on the fubjed. In a Committee, bides, declining to anfwer quellions would be equivalent te pleading guilty ; whereas, in a court of jottice, no conclulion could be legally drawn from it. He did ri ,, t with to be fevere, but lie withed the Houk to do their duty, and, by a falutary proceeding, to prevent Inch delinquencies from again occurring. Lord HENRY PETTY was not fo well quail• fled, he Paid, as many others in the Houle, to form a judgment of theetfea of the interference of the At- torney General, but profelled hindelf adverfe to every thing that might in any degree prevent a fall inquiry. That Lf , rd Melville was guilty, had been a clear de cifion of the Houft ; but was there no other Rep to be taken? Was there no other concluflon to be drawn from the Report that was equally obvious ? The No ble Lnrd concluded by Rating, that the Houk ought firft to draw all the conclulions that was competent for it to do, and then to refer to the Attorney-Gene ral fuel) points as might appear neceihry. Mr. WHITBREAD then role, and Hated that as he preferred a Committee of farther Inquiry, to a reference to the Attorney Gneral, he withdrew his motion refpeding the latter. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER re gretted that the Honourable Gentleman had with. drawn this motion, as in a Court of Jullice he thought there were more opportunities of inquiry than could be expeeed in a Committee. • Mr. WHITBREAD could not help obfcrving that the Right Hon. Gentleman had changed tis opinion fince a former occafion, when he appeared to deprecate the idea of an appeal to a Court of Jutlice. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER re torted the charge, and contended that it was the Hon. Gentleman who had changed his opinion. Mr. WHITBREAD and Mr. GREY explained. Mr. GRENVILLE spoke in favour of a reference to the Attorney-General, as a Court of Law had bet ter means of procuring evidence, than either a Com. miffion or a Committee, and coal have withed there fore that the Honourable Mover had adhered to his original defign. In refire& to the powers of the Committee to be appointed, he was clearly of opinion that they ought to be genfral, and for that reafon op pofed the amendment. TbeC riANCELLOR oldie IiMIEQIIER raid that he had propofed the Committee to be inverted with tpecific and limited powers, under the idea of a legal profecution, at the fame time as originally propofed by the framer of the motion. Mr,. WINDHAM, with his ufttal ability, argued in favour of an unlimited Committee, which Oland go into an inquiry of the whole of the Reporty and then refer faith particular parts of the fuhjea to legal difeuffion as the Houfe (horrid afterwards think 'wiper. The Houfe ought to have a regard to its own etiaralier. They ought to be . anxious alto to make a proper example to prefent future diforders. They ought not, but with the greaten caution, part with powers they palled, particularly as the Attor ney General might afterwards tell them that he could effect nothing. Lord CASTLEREAGH allowed, that the Houfe ought not to part with any of its powers unlefs con vinced that that part which they retigned would be equally well in the hands of thole to whom they co ttoned it as in their own. He thought a legal inquiry would be mote effectual. At any rate it was not to he expelled that afiy individual would anfwer before a Committee if they fhould think that evidence would be afterwards brought againft them in a Court of Junice. Should the powers of the Committee be found too limited, they might afterwards be extended as neceffity thould require, but at prefent he law no farther powers necelfary than thofc propofed by his Right Hon. Friend's amendment. Mr. BANKS thought it was in the power of the Hopfe to proceed on the whole billings, and found any necelTary legal proceedings on the Report. • It would have been his with, he (aid, to-refer the mat ter again to the Commillion, giving them larges. powers than they.at relent polfelfed. The extent to which the doEtrine was citified, of not eliminating one's fell, he conceived to be dangerous, arid would render all reference to the Attorney General nuga tory, as he might be able to obtain no anfwer that could ferve as evidence. Mr Serjeant BoTobjeited to an y legal proceeding, on the ground that it could be of no advantage. If evi dence refuted to anfwer Mien °gator ins before a Corn. inittee on pretence of not criminating titmice's - es, they would do the fame in a Court of Law. A Commit. tee, however, would have this advantage over a Court of Law, that it would not be tied down to any par ticular courfe of inquiry. But even fuppollng a pro fecution to fueteed, a renitution of the money WAS a confideration of the lean etmfequence among fo many others of greater magnitude. He was therefore alto tatted at the aineodment the Right Hon. Gentleman had propofed, which went to much to narrow inquiry, and dilappoint the anxiety of the public, in proof of which the table was now loaded with Petitions. The powers of the Committee, he thought, would be fill ticiently limited when confined to the Tenth Report. Sir JOAN HIPPESLEY vindicated the manner in which drafts had been made at the Bank. He ad verted to the advice given by Mr. Trotter to Mr... Tie rney us his•recting Coen Ace, which, he faid, had bad a cunkletable influence on the public mind, to the prgjitlies of the former, sial which•did not, be