Star. — London, England, 1828-02-13 00:00:00

r, another; ate of the the Lord ngs, for a tine Judge with than tier, ai it ; and be llor would ters which nd tended justice.— id greatly cHinicu •ATEM, charting his duty=okbereas no*, the delays and abuses were attributed to the excess of business in the Court. He was ready at ! any time to enter into that Subject w i t hout prejudice—and he now only said so much, be .cause fall jostle, had not been done to his Noble Friend 'at a former period. Mr. BANKES r junesaid that this Hon. Member who had introduced this subject to the House,bad been mho taken in the number of causes which be said were set down for Eearing. In the first place the total number, in place of being 526, was only 410 ; the causes in 1825, in the long vacation, were 525, and at the same period bt the nest year they were only 442. The Bankrupt Petitions, also stated at 500, were now only, perhaps, he might safely say. under NO. The motions on the first day in Hilary Term were before the Lord Chan cellor 43, and before the Vice Chancellor 245. So far, then, the Hon. Member need not be afraid of what he was pleased to call the great increase which bad taken place. He could not at all consent to separate the Bankruptcy cases from the jurisdiction of the Great l3eal, although he bad no hesitation in admitting that the system might be very considerably improved. Mr. M. A. TAYLOR in reply said, be would not intentionally falsify a return merely to suit any purpose. The cause paper usually distributed to the Bar he had obtained a copy of, and from that be made his statement. He himself cast up the causes in the presence of two most respectable persons, and if he were wrong, it was inintentional on his part. In the part he had always taken on this subject, he never was personal with Lord Eldon, and he knew the Noble Lord felt the case to be so. He attarcked the system of that Court and that only. He asked, and would continue to ask, if the practice in the Court of Chancery was what it ought to be?—(Hear, hear 1) His object all along has been to purge the Court of Chancery, and by so doing to benefit the public, but more especially those persons whose wants or interests compelled them to go into that Court. He regretted the Conamissioners did not probe the evil to the bottom, and until something effectual was done, he would bring the subject every Session before the notice of Parliament.—The Remus were then agreed to COURT 01 ADMIIRALTTIRRLAND. Sir JOHN NEWPORT, in moving for certain Re turns relative to the Court of Admiralty in Ireland, complained of the expense and delay attending pro ceedings in that Court. The recovery of seamen's wages must there be decided by the Admiralty, whereas here, it was decided before a 'Magistrate. The attendance in that Cottrt Was Also vexatious, for it di4 not meet for: any purposes of business until three o'clock each day. Ile should more for these papers, in order toshew how; much it required improvement. H then moved for a! return of din admirer of days, and the hour at which! the Judges sat, and their names; the number of derelict and salvage causes, and the sum or sums lying to the ; c►edit•of the Admiralty, and an account of applications' made tolodge proceeds of sales, and if complied with to state the casesi Mr. LAMB said," &el Witslicrobjectiou to grant tire! return ; on the contrary, every means of investigation; and of reforming existing abuses would be cheerfully' _offatred.—Ale Returns were then ordered. Sir JOHN : NEWPORT moved for returns to shew, "what sums sretu - inted in 3restries:for the building and. repairs of Churches, distinguishing the Vestries in which Cadging, were Wl:tined. He wished.the apportionments' lb be VsaBe"fot 1827. in order to see the operation of: :tbe Bill passed for 'the improvement of Ireland.--The .11. eta ras.were then ordered. • suertet..--RLPORT. The CHANCEVLOR of the EXCHEQUER mo the Order of the Day for bringing up this Report. iIcoIIUME objected to its being brought up. 4sid, this he had - last night objected to the pissing ttti the vote in the ComMittee. on the roiled that there 'hail not 'been laid befose the House a fall ' account oil she services of the year. Aszhe had then done so With out effect, he now wished to ire-state them. The Mon. Secretary for the Admiralty had last night attempted' to vindicate the propriety of granting away the public+ money without notice, on the ground of a sixteen or eighteen years' precedent. He (Mr. Hume) could not admit the propriety of resorting to theauthorirrof pre -cedenrto sanction abuses. - He now tailed on Ministers ti state what reductions they intended to make in ours establishments, and if they did not deign to make any , reduction, howibey proposed to provide for the expense. It waaproposed to vote 50,000 men now for the-service. of the Navy, on the same scale at last year. He depre cated the attemputuder the existing circumstances of the, country. Last night he had not pressed his opposition: to the Speaker's leaving the chair, bicaase it was un 41erstood Ministers would give satisfactorrexplanations in Committee. No explanation, however, had been' given. On the contrary,tbe Hoosewas told that they bad nothing to do with the establishments of the coun try. If Ministers intended to reduce the Army at the same time that they kept up the strength of the Navy, he might feel disposed to -approve of their intention, but ao pledge ofshat hind had been given. Ministers ahould arplain to the House why they required 50,000 men for she Navy at a tune when we were at peace with the whole world. The Hon. Member then pro seeded to soview the state of our establishments from the year 1292 dew nwarsisto the present time, and drew , favonsablecontrast betweep the comparative light ness of the public hundeas daring ithe%re two periods.— He-complained that so far item keeping our expendi ture within our DMOIDO, we were entrancing it, and evocluded lay esprinsieg his opinion that it was abso lutely wecessarywither to reduce on, outlay, to impose new taus. or teacarts faeshisasden of public debt. Ms. CROJCEB.meniat begin by mousing a statenseat made by ttw Hese Gentleneao who last addressed she House, relative to the mode of voting the grant for the mural service. The Hors. Member had alluded 40 me -repression which dropped from hiss (Mr. Croker)_oq a formeroscasion, and declared that he would not. be deterred, by the fear of being criticised, front swig his opinion on the present occasion. Ik bad further statedi hat, according to their own ibbWing • GOVINSIMiI WAS in the habit of proceeding on les moat pleas, em 4 calling on the House to vote aim the public without due notice or investigation, oo the gromp ala in the establishment of a 16 year precedent, tebseboMit vital them to do so. The Mess. Member regeneemenibielt (Mr. Goiter) as quoting .a 16 or 19 years peeeliket' • for granting the supplies in this manner. Sueh was the statement which the HesuGentleman bad act feared to make, speaking from his place in that House. Hon. Members who were present at the debate which took place last night in the Committee on these Estimates, seeded not to be told the degree of credit which attacked to the Hon. Gentleman's representation of what he (Mr. Ctoker) uttered on that occasion. However, for the sak e of t h ose Hon. Members pew in the House, but who Welt absent yesterday evening, be would repeat the st.tistance of what he bed then stated. When he had done bo, the. House would be in a situation to determine what degree of reliance should be placed on the Hon. Gentle. soao's eportiose. He cataisly quote lb , practice of tbo Home ter oases or Diemen pan, bottleful his reference to the precedent, on that occasion, was not ea a pout of expenditure, but on the form of a notice in the notice book—(Hear, and a laugh). Thequestion was not whether a greater or lesser sum of money-rot smaller 1 or a larger body of men, should be voted? it merely referred to the technical form and wording of a notice. The Honourable Geotleman said the words of a notice were irregular: helMr. CrOker) contended that they were not. But in talking of the terms of the grant, no reference was made to the general principle involved in it s so far, indeed, from his observations having been in tended to refer to the principle of the vote, it merely related to a page in the notice book ; yet the Honour able Member wished it to be believed that he (Mr. C.) meant to defend the practice of voting away the public foods without investigation, on the ground of the previous practice of the House. This was a specimen of the Hon. Gent.'s fairness He (Mr. C.) did take the trouble , to compare the notice books of the last 18 or 19 years, and found that the Hon. Gentleman's objection to the formality of the grant was as unfounded as his repre. sentation of what he (Mr. C.) bad uttered was incorrect. The Hen. Gentleman implored the House not. to take the first step in a system of expenditure similar to that lof last year ; but he carefully kept out of view the real nature of the case now submitted to their consideration. So far from the present vote being similar to the grant proposed to the House last year, or extending itself over, the same time as that—so far was this from being the case, that it was essentially different. It was only a vote for the pay and maintenance of the number of sea. men necessary for the public service for six moths. It was not intended by this grant to prevent the Finance Committee, when appointed, from investigating the sub ject of the Naval expenditure, any more than from consi dering any other branch of the expenditure of the coun. try. The vote did, not necessarily pledge the Committee of Finance to keep up the same number of men during the remainder of the year as it was proposed to grant for the first six months of it. The Hon. Gentleman appeared to think that if the estimates were once agreed to, no matter what alterations the Committee might -recommend, the existing system must be preserved in mute qu'il coute. Now, in this :opposition, the Hqn. Member was evidently mistaken. The very report he, opposed kept the question open for future decision.— Government addressed the House thus—"• You must, vote the number of men necessary for the public ser vice, because we cannot call home our ships suddenly, under existing circumstances; in the interim, a certain time will be necessary, in order to enable the Commit- tee of Finance to decide upon the measures which it may be practicable to adopt its regard te our national ex penditure, and we propose to take 80,000 seamen for six mouths only, that, at the expiration of that period, a reduction may be made if it shall be found possible to make it." Was it fair then in the Hon. Gentleman to inform Members, who were absent from the discus. sion of last night, that we were going to vote 30,000 seamen as before, when previous votes had been for 12, and not, like the present, for six months. The Hon. Gentleman talked of the Naval establishment of the year 1817, with comparative praise, and yet, if he (Mr. C.) did not labour under a mistake, the Hon. Memher had,at that very time,made more violent speeches against the existing establishments, than he did at present. Mr. HUMS—I beg the Hop. Member's pardon; but I was not In the Haus in the year 1817. Mr. CROKER—I am sure it will not be expected that I should be able to ascertain the exact date of an individual speech of the Hon. Member, but I think 1 may venture to assert, that the Hon. Gentleman op posed those very Estimates which he now appears to approve of, and that, if he did not do so in the year 1817, he did it before that time. Mr. HUSK—I never made a speech on the subject before that period in aiy Mr.CßOKEß—The,Hon.Gentlensan had complained of every one of the Estimates of which he now partially approved. It was admitted that the Government of 1817 had considerably reduced the number of men in the Naval Department; and if subsequently they in creased that number'by a thousand or two at a time, as the circumstances of the country appeared to require, they were fully justified in what they had done. If the commerce of the country was now greatly extended, and Englishmen had established what might be termed a factory in every port, they required the protection of our naval force. At that very moment he assured the House that there were Claims at the Admiralty from all the foreign stations where English commerce was esta blishedfor countenance and support. He need not sayour commerce bail visited new count ies, and had been intro duced in places where it was previously unknown. In South America, both along the eastern and western coasts, English merchandise had penetrated. It was needless to elution oar commercial intercourse with Portugal, Spain, and the ports of the Mediterranean. In fact, wherever trade could sbew itself, there English spirit and adventure were found, and English spirit and adventure could not be successfully carried on except under the protection of the British flag, flying in every port which oar merchantmen visited. Of the 80,000 men proposed for the public service in the Navy, cer tainly 20,000, at the very least, were employed for the purpose of protecting our trade. He believed he might mid, England never had a less portion of her disposable naval force idle than at the present moment. Of the 30,000 seamen, not less than - 27,000 were now at sea. Tbe Honourable Member might say, " why keep up so many guard-ships ?" To this he (Mr. Croker) replied, such had been our ancient practice, and which proved to be a wise policy. It was our guard-ships that enabled the expedition to Portugal to be sent out last year in so surprisingly short a space of time, and through their means our forces, on that occasion, were on their way within twenty•four hours after the decision of Government was made known to the public. To be sure all this might be a very wrong principle in the vision of the Honourable Gentleman, who might have a new system of his own to propose; but hitherto such bed been the system on which the affairs of this country were conducted, and he (Mr. C.) thought experience proved it to have been the wisest and best. These observations applied rather to the general qnestion, which saight be raised on the vote of men for the whole year, than to the particular grant then before the . House. If a vote for the service of the entire year were under their consideration, more part% calm details, relative to the number of men and the espenditme, might reasonably be expected ; but whoa Governineat ran before Parliament, and anticipated the intentions of the House, by only asking for a vote foe six months, pending the appointment of the Committee of Finance, it was unnecessary to say more, and he alsould reserve whatever further information he might Ilan to afford for a future discussion. His Hon. and Gallant Friend and himself would then be ready and e to thew that not one man more than necessary was *opt in the naval service—not one nut more than the erants of the country, in its political, military, and corn inarcial character, required. tilde. BEK*L did not desire to prolong the discus - ilea, He halseard a great deal from the Hon. Mem ber for Liverpool, oo the sobject of the Plaerice Cosa mines. He was aware tbill am IP M.an ei" .. ' - for six months, but the Right Hoo.Gendeman to whom he had already 'alluded, stated in the most emphatic.- tenue r that the =glee*: Erminctlenfonsittee bad no thing to do with the amount or e:tent of the establish-. meats of the country. He was aware that he touched: upon delicate unfits when he adverted to-our civil, mill tart', and naval establishiiients, but he thought it desire able to know what Gove r nMent • intended to do in vela-. non to those important Wabjects. He also wished te r know their intention - 16th 'respect to the Committee Finance. That Committee might •not be authorised' lb meddle with our existing establishments, but it 'was• clear that if the Committee discovered that we were unable to pay the cost of them, it was impossible they should be retained in their present condition. He would not go back to the remote periods of 1792, 1815, or 1817, because he was not blind to the altered state of our commerce, and the demand which was thus created for the aid of our military marine. He feared that de mand for assistance was not always granted as promptly as it was required. To come to the old question, he could not understand the meaning of proposing a grant of seamen for only six months, if the Finance Com mittee had-nothing to do with the establishments of the country; and consequently was usable to suggest any reduction lathe number of men to be employed in the remaining six months of the year. He wished to know what was meant by voting for a period of six months? and be was also desirous of learning what advantage could result from the nppointment of a Finance Com mittee, if it was not to report until after 20 sittings, and at the end of its deliberations the report should be found to recommend a property tax or an income tax ? He thought the appointment of the Committee, constituted as it would be, or as there was some reason to think it would be—was nothing less than a humbug—(a laugh); he must speak the truth, and he sould call things by their right names. His constituents expected, and the people' at large expected, that some strong, decisive, and effec tual measure would be adopted, for putting our finances upon such a footing, as the exigencies of the country demanded. He feared, from the course which had been pointed out as likely to be pursued on the present occasion, that the sittings of the Committee would be postponed to a late period of the Session, when the time should have passed away within which any thing like a useful reformation could be effected in the admi nistration of our finances. They must not be approach ed in a cautious or timorous spirit. A bold and skil ful hand could alone work the cure; plasters and salves would no longer do, caustic must be applied, or remedial efforts will be in vain, and the people of England will justly be dissatisfied—will loudly express their discon tent. That which at the present moment he conceived to be all important, was that infernsation should be given to - the House previous to its coming to a vote, on the motion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, as to what the intentions- of his Majesty's Government Were in reference to this Committee. He wished to know from the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, whether or not it was intended to leave to the consideration of the Committee the number of men to be employed in the different branches of the public service? If be was to be told that that question was not to be laid before the Committee, he confessed that for his part he had no desire that the Committee should sit at all. Its members might enter upon their labours with the best possible , intentions, but most assuredly , if they were to leave the' consideration of the topic to which he adverted out of view, it would be infinitely batter that they had never been appointed. Mr. Secretary PEEL said, that after having been so' directly appealed to, he could not remain entirely silent, at the "same time that, (or reasons which be should state, it would be highly inexpedient for bins to en*, into the topic suggested by the Honourable Member who had just sat down. As to the particular estimates then before the House, he- must .beg permission to say that those estimates were prepared under the Adminis., tration of Lord Goderich, and it could not therefore be expected that he should pledge himself, standing in the situation in which he then did, for the accuracy of each particular detail, though he had no doubt that the whole of them, were framed upon principles calculated to effect every possible reduction compatible with a due regard to the publie service. More than that was of 'course - what no one looked for. With respect to the ; Finance Committee, it was, as he had before stated, his intention to move its formation on Friday next. They: were then within three days of the time particularly appointed for bringing that subject regularly and fully under consideration, and he trusted that neither the House nor the Honourable Gentleman would think him guilty of any disrespect, if he .declined, until that day should arrive, entering into the question thus prematurely. In three days he expected to be able to bring the whole subject at once before them, and it was on that account that he had cane to the deter. urination not to answer any particular question bearing upon the topics which were to be submitted, to the consideration of the Committee. Thus, for example, be might be called on by one Honourable Member to define the precise object of the Committee, - and another might come forward and say that a statement of the object was of little importance—his confidence would entirely depend upon the composition oithe Committee, He (bk.-P.) would feel himself as moth bound to answer the oae question as the other, and if he answered both, there would be no end to the interrogatories to which he should be subjected, or the discussions and conversations arising out of them. this account then he would postpone any answers either as to the nature of the business to come before the Committee, or the names who are likely to compose it, until Friday next. The Hon. Gentleman had stated that, in the course of last sight, he had heard a Right Hon. Friend of his speak of this Committee as one that legally could have within to do with our Civil and Military Establishments. Now, he certifinly did not understand his Right Hon.-Friend as saying any such thing. He said that the esteNS of those Establishments was matter which could not properly come under the consideration of the .Committee ; but for hisspart he wished on that night to pledge himself to nothing specific on the subject. Thos much, howeVer, he might state generally, that it was not the intention of his Majesty's Government to circumscribe the scope of the Committee's operations within any other limits than those which bounded .the Committees of Mr. Pitt, in 1796 and 1797, as well as the Committee of 1817. He assured the House that it was intended that the proposed Committee should possess fully as wide a range as that o f 1817, which was one certainly that appeared to give very general satisfaction. That, he conceived, was all that the present occasion required he should say. It was scarcely necessary for him to enter into the reason, of the present vote for the use of the seamen of his Ma. jesty's Navy. The money applicable to that Depart.. I meet was exhausted, and the public services required the present vote. sv. Boma explained, sad Mr. Howe Gomm made a few observations, after wide% Mr. MONCK observed at some length upon the ditties to which the Flame Committee ought to direct' , t desie attentien # end pressed upon} the House the nem . • 'sky of steamily sod ratrasaliaaaat. He asomlol4 4 ", state and management of the British ligoOy with that 4 the United Stites, contending that the Government of this country might dellve infinite advestage.frops imi, tads% the example set et the other side of theAtiestiro Ho concluded by recommending a frugal &diphtheria,. den of our resources, observing that, at all iigies.scap 4eany was strength. and profusion weakness. . Sir BYAM MARTIN expressed his surpriseAtet -10 taeoeilvdistassioa should have arisen on an alee the presto. He sincerely wished an end csuld s te i s: to,the exaggerated statements which the kLin. for Montrose was in the habit of putting foitit • ' skot subject of Naval Estimates. The House, he r . could not fail to see the inconvenience that , from any delay is larin4ing up the report. Available for that service was already cabs ' . 1 " 1 " great inconvenience would ensue irons the w • • Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN observed, that Owe should be a very serious examination of the fittaimial condition of the country. He saw uo reason why Pit. liament should thus be called on for the public nudity -et so short a notice. Wby had not - Parliament b.ou called together in the month of November, sad %be Fi nance Committee long since appointed? It will vibe futile to talk of appointing Committees if they,,mese thus to go on, voting away the public money whistle investigation or information.—He was by no Imes sanguine in his anticipations on the subject of: this Committee: he very much doubted that their reports whenever it should appear, would fulfil the expects. dons formed of it. The fact was, that in the present state of affairs, neither the House nor the country could rely upon any thing as secure or stable. How old they be certain that the present Ministers wesM be long enough in their places for the Committee to make their report. Last night he heard a Right Hon. Gea. detrain make one declara:ion. How could the House know but that next night the Right Hon. Secretary, who had taken a part in the present discussion, might set that Right Hon. Gentleman right in that respect. The House had heard much of the responsibility of Mi nisters—he attached no importance to those words—he considered what was called the responsibility of Minis ters as a mere farce ; it was of no service to the public ; and the only , way that be knew of for resisting the wasteful administration of the public income, was by opposing such a vole as the present. The House surely ought not to stir in a .case like the present until the esti mates were laid urn the table. Mr. G. ROBINSON looked forward with hope and expectation to what might be done by the Committee. He thought that the present was a crisis which called for their best exertions, but he should, he confessed, feel quite disappointed if their labours were to be coafined ' to the civil estimate. Mr. Secretary PEEL—The Hon. Member seems to my that I had stated that the Committee were to have so other object than the investigation of the civil esti mates. 1 said no such thing. I postponed any expla nation on the subject till Friday. Mr. Karru Dauakas made a few otwer ratiaus. after which Mr. THOMPSON addressed the House at consider able length. He gave Ministers credit for not wishing to keep up the public establishments to an unreasonable height, were they not compelled to do so in compliance with the wishes of the aristocracy, and animadverted upon the differences that seemed to exist in the Cabinet —one Minister of the Crown making one decimation, and another its opposite. Mr. Secretary PEEL—I made no declaration on the subject of: the Finance Committee. Mr. THOMPSON resumed. He certainly did not wish to draw the Right Hon. Gentleman into-any thing whichreGglit impede-the establishment of the Committee on that footing he might think the most proper. There would be another opportunity to enter into the details of the subject, and he should - not enter further into it at present, He must, however, be allowed to say, that hehad ieVerteard a more unsatisfactory reply than that whiehltadisetoi given by the Right Hon. Secretary op. ;smite; to thikspeech of the Hon. Member for Montrose. The' Re. Hon: Seeretary had said, that they would bete afterhiet ari opportunity of entering into the number of initi'prOposed by this grant, and went on to state, that this number was one which it was absolutely necessary should be kept up, thus leaving us no• hope whatever of any reduction taking place.—(Hear, hear).—This the House was told at a time when reduction was abso lutely necessary . ; for the question was, not what we would do, but what we could do? 'and if we could not pay men, we ought not to keep them- r (Hear).—The argument employed by the Right Honourable Secretary for maintaining that number of seamen deserved but little notice. The Right Honourable Secretary bad told them, and he appealed to the testimony of commercial :men to confirm what he said, that there were calls from every quarter of the globe for vessels cad men to protect the commerce of this country. That might be the fact; but if it was, it was a sign that there was something radi tally wrong in the management of our forces. He should appeal to the example of America—of Repub. Mean America—although he knew it was unfashion able and vulgar to do so, for a proof of the possibility of much more being done with a less force than wt kept on foot. America, with a navy of 28 vessels only, protected her commerce better, considerably bettet, than we did that of ours with our immense force. Our rade had suffered from the States of South America, and in the Mediterranean, without redress; whilst that of the United States had no sooner received an injury, than prompt vengeance was imasetliattl7 wreaked upset the aggressor, and a compensation extorted. If, there fore, he would again repeat, our fleet was not enough to protect the commerce of the country, there must be something wrong is its management and direction. Mr. Secretary PEEL said that he was perfectly en , aware of having said any thing to-night,. which could give the Hen. Member opposite a right to infer that there existed any difference of opinion between the Right Hon. Secretary for the Colonies and himself, respecting the Finance Committee. All that be (Mr. Peel) had said to-night was, that his Right Hon. Friend stated that the Finance Committee bpd no right to examine into the amount of the Civil and Military Este blishments. As to his (Mr. Peel's) own vievrof the sub ject, be begged to postpone entering into the.ditails of is until Friday night ; bat this much he could state, that no limitations would be set to the powers•of t h e .c omm i t . tee, which were not placed in those of 1 797 and 1817. Mr. BERNAL said, that those Committee* bad not the powers they bad been speaking* of. Mr. Secretary PEEL continued—lfthe Rouse did not disapprove of the course he proposed to pursue, be should postpone all esplaaatiaas until Friday sm. , - (Hear, hear). Mr. MA BERLY said, that it had been stated, and it could not be denied by Right Hon. Gentlemen oath* other side of the House, that the Finance Committee about to be formed had nothing whatever to do With the amount of the establishments, and that it. would merely have to enter into the examiaatioo of certain money accounts. The Right Hon. Secretary, the Mem ber for Liverpool, was pressed again *join to ex plain himself, and 10 kicl,tegiame4 aikut ; W. the ',.", 1 . . . . , . ~.. . . .. 1 - . . • .1 1 " , ; , : . 1 < • : . < .! • I r. ‘ , < 1 , . .1 .. •. . ) . . , • i. ,• . .• „ . • i t i I: i ; ' i 11 . • , . • - . 1 _ . , , I , li o i .. .. ...r. * ' • i. k. .. i - s v i i i' .. 1 ; 1 ' If 1 ~ i . i . .., 1 f; • ;1 It 1.