Star. — London, England, 1818-02-12 00:00:00

tee: visit to Nottingham, whoa he complained mei ; {the backwardness of the people; and conitaudy l ecke of the Bth or 9th of June as the time at which i‘ e r i s ing was to take place. He stated half the ppeo-- Nef.• e ngland were ready to put down the unreel " e g tyrants who oppressed them. He added, Major ; ate :right, and others, whose names it would not een be proper to mention, were acquainted with the hole of the proceedings ; and he mentioned the „es of several Officers, whom he asserted to ep ee of what was going on. Oliver had, besides, one Crabtree to Birmingham, to invite certain .as there to attend a treasonable meeting, but 7 had declined, and declared they washed their 'ds of the whole business. He now begged to call , attention of the House to one memorable fact— , Te sty, that from the day Oliver had been convicted being a spy—from the day on which he ceased to the tourist and the missionary of Government— I disturbances had teasel. Some allowances, he =tided, ought to be male for those who by each • had been seduced from.their duty. It was very II for those who had fortunes of their own, or who -eived large sums of money for services, or for no wires rendered to the country, to set forth the ormity of his conduct who offended against its ra ; but they did not know what it was to sec a ife and children crying for bread, and to have none . give them. Placed in such a situation, they knew et what their own feelings would be. In such dis ss men would do things, which, under other cir arnstances, they would notthink of for a moment.' drowning, men would catch at straws, so thole ould adopt schemes little calculated to afford thee' -Yd. Teat there were men disposed to take advan -5 of such a state of thing", could not be doubted, the question for the House to consider was= hether the combinations of such persons were so eeive. as to afford grounds for rational alarm ?—._, was only surprised that a more formidable rising I not been produced by the missionaries Of Go eeeteat, who had been employed during the last , ..sr, at the habitation cf want and distress. ls ' bw as' :what was said of the use that the prisoners at Irby might have made of Mr. Oliver, this excellent an was certainly concealed in Derby, ready to earn pe blood-meney which he expected to get out of ! lose wheni he had instigated to crime—(heoe, hear.) It was doubtless there for that purpose, and e for no Cher-leer, hear.) The prisoners could not call m in their behalf; as it would be no defence for `ern to say they had been seduced into teeasone-- 'hey wished to prove that they had not committed e crime laid to their charge. Could tile legal mas icre which formerly took plate in his neighbour hod, at Derwentwater, have been prevented,, would have been received as any excuse for the poor suf tes, that they had only pffended by following their xi? He would tell why the course taken with trials at Derby had been preferred. If Bacon first beer. pet upon his trial, Oliver would have important witness. The Noble Lord oppo knew this. He knew that Oliver was much con• with what had been done by Bacon; and for reason the Master traitor was not first tried.— facts which he had stated • he was prepared to a, on the oath of witnesses — not like the :ney General's witnesses, Castles anchOliver—hut ens of crehibility—(Loud cries of hear! hear !) ttlemen opposite (said Mr. Bennet) may; by a ma defeat this or any other motion, This sy Lere, but it will not do Its the country. The steed before the country on their trial s - s -and the etre will return that verdict which their conduct For my own part, I hope the House will instruct the Committee to do that, which, from speech of the Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. met), it is clear they arc ,;determined not to do. rwl cheering.) t.WILBERFORCItobjected to the motion.; and The as a Member of the Committee, he 44 a t to sly, that he ought not to be embeiniNed by reference which it proposed. He thought the se ought to•negitive the motion, because it•tt-as ' on a false assumption, as it supposed that : no nce had occurred till Oliver went into the The Committee, however had declared it we been proved, on satisfactory evidence, that a menus rising was contemplated before Oliver heoskat,timugh it ras not denied that the agents e to detect the conspirators might have added ig to the malignity of the design. This being , it must be seen the motion went altogether on hypothesis. He knew not how to form a deei ainion on the character of Oliver till he obtained information respecting him. He certainly ap e a very different light, from what appeared Committee, than he did now, after the state made by the Hon. Gentleman. If any man hid the part which he (Oliver) was said to have he not only thought a most material service I be rendered to the public by bringing him to e and he should be most anxious for his punish 'Meer !)—He thought it would be desirable . from employing such persons as spies alio. ; but, if it was admitted that they ought to be , yed, he did not think all the indignation now ' ought to be poured on the head of an indh who had only offended by going a little fur his efforts to deceivethose whom he was sent tot, than he ought to have done. In the main, e he thought more harm than good resulted eroploving s p ies . Our Constitution needed not supporters. It stood not on so sandy and base sdation as to require their services, but, este -1 on liberty and law, could well sustain itself es.) disraceful an association. He should op -sent motion, as he did not see that the en i for would afford any practical benefit. iIIITOR-GENERAL said, the present lligh grounded solely on a passage in the he Secret Committee, was not justified by t, as it was there stated that it was proved _aesfactory evidence that a treasonable . eea been formed before Mr. Oliver went :atty. There was, therefore, no degree ze charged is that Report on the Agents :e::: that could be made the subject of a 0n the t op i cs w hi c h h ad b een intro 'ace the House to agree to the motion, considered the information of the ...n to be drawn from suspicious and 'rtes. He named early in his speech 1. who quad heen lately discharged from L fe . tesasonalee practices. This per s o n , • ze, ;havens, who were now en AMC- 11C rice,- he suspectei of having furnished Much or the information in question.— ! -(Mr. BENNET &mid the correctness of this conjectare amidst loud cheering.)— He would ask, from the cheering which had follow ed his assertion that the - information derived from sources like those to which he had alluded was pol luted and suspicious, if it could be supposed that the respectability of individuals could be increased by their having been charged with treasonable piactices? This, he was sure, would not be maintained in that House, but such seemed to be the impression made elsewhere, and those who were so distinguished were accordingly pointed out, not only as objects of public commiseration, but of public bounty--(hear). The cry was now up against Oliver. It was quite safe for those of whom he had spoken to lay every thing to him, and represent themselves, poor souls I to have been all along perfectly innocent—(hear, hear, hear). He denied that Castles had been the witness of the Attorney-General, as he had unfairly been called.— He had been the witness of the Crown and the coun try, and had only been introduced by the Attorney- General as a person whose evidence could not be re ceived, unless it could be confirmed by the testimony of other witnesses. Castles had been no spy. He had been taken up with the other traitors, and it was not till long after the transaction of which he gave evidence had occurred, that he had any communi cation Stith the Government. It had been said, that Oliver, at the time of the late trials, had been taken down to Derby, to earn blood-money. It was im possible for him to have been taken down for any such purpose. He could not have been called for on any of the trials, as it would be seen his name had not been included in the list of witnesses previously furnished to the prisoners--(hear, hear, hear.).—Had Oliver been called, the Law Officers of the Crown would have been reproached for bringing him for ward as they had been for producing Castles in Lon don, but as they had not included •him in the list of witnesses, they were now asked why he had not been brought forward ? He noticed the mild terms in which the Honourable Gentleman had spoken of the crimes for which the traitors at Derby suffered. He admitted them to have been convicted of illegal actions. It was thus he spoke of the conduct of men who in the prosecution of treason had committed murder.— The charge preferred against the Attorney-General was wholly unfounded. He could not have brought forward Oliver if he would at the trials, and he had never thought of doing so, as Oliver knew nothing of the transactions he wished to prove. But it was said the prisoners could not call him, as it would have been no defence for them to shew that they had been seduced into the. commission of High Treason. Be it so ; but this is no reason why they should ab stain from stating the fact, if such were the truth, when they were brought up to receive sentence. It had only been stated that Oliver had seen Brandreth once; that was on the 233 of May. But would it be maintained that the conspiracy had originated in that interview, when it was known that the prepara tions of the traitors had been in progress fur weeks and weeks before. It was not true that the course of the trials had been regulated by the consideration, that if Bacon had been put to the bar first, Oliver bust have been called as a principal vdtne.s.. As Oliver was not in the list of witnesses, he could not have been brought forward on that trial more than on any of the others. Brandreth, as leader of the con fpir:atorsrwas taken first, as the persouagainst whom; in common justice, they were bound to proceed in the first instance. Sir SAMUEL ROMILLY declared he should give his vote for the present motion, though he could have wished the enquiry confided to another Committee. In such a case he would ask if the House " dared"' to refuse an enquiry altogether ? It was understood that the House had not long to live, and would it dare to meet the impression such conduct would make on their constituents ? He had never heard a more un fair charge than that made by his Learned Friend ( Me. Solicitor General) against his Honourable Friend (Me. Bernet) when he stated his information to have been derived from a polluted source. Mitchell the Learned Gentleman had spoken of as one who was not entitled to. credit. \Thy ? Because he was one of the unfortunate persons who had been confined un der the Suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act. He wished it to be seen what strides Ministers were dis posed to take. Because they fastened on an indivi dual and confined him, his character was to be blas ted for ever, and his evidence was not to be received against Ministers ! The other - persons his Learned Friend had mentioned, were, he believed, out of the country before the transactions in question took place, and, consequently, the llonourable Gentleman could not have derived his information from them. The Solicitor-General, under all the circumstances, had no right to suppose the information of his Ho nourable Friend had been derived from polluted sources. It had never been imputed to Oliver that he originated the disaffection which had existed, but that. this having been previously inspired, he had worked it up into those mischievous actions in which it at last broke out. It seemed that he had had in tercourse with Brandreth before the Bth of June, yet this, though repeatedly called upon, the Law Officers had refused to prove. But it was said the prisoners might have stated what the conduct of Oliver had been when they were called up to receive sentence. 'Did his Honourable and Learned Friend think their doing so would have inclined the Court to mercy ? 'lf he did, his opinion was very different from what he (Sir S. Romilly) entertained. But what had been the language of the sufferers at the place of execu tion? It had been stated that then they had accused Oliver. If when they did this in their last moments, knowing they were about immediately to appear be fore their MAKER ; if they were not to be believed then, neither could he persuade himself that they would have been believed on being brought up to re ceive sentence. His Learned Friend had represented his Honourable Friend, in speaking of these men, to have mitigated their crime by the manner in which he spoke of it as if they had only been guilty of a misdemeanor, or some trifling offence.— Who could have heard him speak of their illegal actions, without understanding him to mean,' that 1 whether they were guilty of High Treason or not, their lives were justly forfeited to the laws of their country ? After describing the Honourable Gentle man to have obtained information from a polluted source, be then seemed to say, " and now, by the manner in which their crime is spoken f, I will shcw you that the man who brings forward this gorrnatioa, is one who, in a manner, makes common 'cause with them."—(CHes of no, no.) The expres sion he had used Was too strong. but perhaps his Learned Friend would have the goodness to explain what he had said. If the present motion were ne gatived, as he agreed with an Honourable Gentleman near him (Mr. Wilberforce) that spies ought not to be employed by a Government, he hoped that Honour able Gentleman wouid move for another Committee to inquire into the late proceedings, and that he was of opinion would be the most effectual step that could be taken towards terminating the system which he wished to put down. Sir S. ROMILLY having asked across the table if the Solicitor-General would explain ? Mr. CANNING said, that if he could concede to the Honourable and Learned Gentleman the right of calling for explanation from his Honourable and Learned Friend—explanation too so extraordinarily called for in a colloquial manner, and across the table, he should have waited till his Honourable and Learned Friend had explained. But there were two reasons why an explanation should not he given; first, where - the expressions used were so clear as to require none; secondly, where the misrepresentation was so gross (not wilfully no doubt) as to render ex planation as superfluous as in the first case. The Honourable and Learned Gentleman, either distrust ing his facts, or distrusting his attempted but un achieved triumph over his Honourable and Learned Friend (the Solicitor-General), resorted, by way of a vies in bar, to ask the House whether it would dare, an the face of the country, to negative the motion? Wlth- tint Honourable and Learned Gentleman's leave, the time was not yet come for such an appeal; we were not yet arrived at that millenium; - the House was not under the intimidating voice of Robespierre and him tribunes—(Load laughing from the Opposition Benches.) The Honourable Genttemea on the other side might endeavour to drown that topic with a smile. Bat he would repeat that the time was - not yet come when the House of Commons could be intimidated —(hear, hear, from Me Opposition benches.)—The Gentlemen opposite could no more put down his statenienr or his sentiments by organized shouts, than they could put down, by the same means, the grow ing talent of his Honourable and Learned Friend. But this was surplusage. He should come to - the question.. The situation of the Honourable Mover was extraordinary, and indeed pitiable. If the Mo tion was his own never WAS any thing more absurd— if mule by concert, never was a poor mover more deserted by those who followed him: The motion expressly rested en the Second Report of the Secret Committee. Whit then had it to do with Castles ? for Castles not Oliver is the object of the Honourable Mover. The shouts of triumph for the acquittal of ' Thistlewood echoed under the windows whilst that Committee was sitting ;" Castles' ministry had there fore concluded before that report. Again, what was the abject of the motion—to prosecute a. - King's evi dence—(Hear).—Who ever heard of sucli a 'thing, or what had it to do with the hallowed, and sane- tioned, and fenced in tribes of treason, more than with murder, or any other vulgar crime. Was the object 1 to prosecute Oliver, or Oliver and Co. ?—(4 laugh)— k was quite impossible to rivet the attention of Ho nourable Gentlemen to. the question ; but he again should revert to the motion. It asked what had been done by Government in a particular caw!? He - ,• be matter_of charge of impeachment ; but still the motion was useless, for the act was admitted hatetis colfitentem rcum. There was again the absurdity of referring this question of such importance—such mag nitude—such influence, upon latest posterity ! to a tribunal which they had decried—degraded—stig matised as a Committee set up by and full of Mini sters for their own purposes. What, give to a Com mittee appointed to delude the people, farther means of delusion ! Give the task of elucidation to the pro fessors of obscurity ; that of examination to the sti flers of inquiry, commit to an incompetent and par tial and scorned Committee this question so interesting to morality, society, community, unity ! (Laughter.) •He acknowledged the talents of the Honourable Gen tleman who moved this question, but he considered him put forward, like the paw of an humble do mestic animal, to feel the disposition of ;he House. He 'was employed, like the sharp end of the wedge, to let in the grosser statement. Saying this, he re peated his regret that ingenuous youth should be so employed. Ministers were charged with employing spies. How then were they to inform themselves of the state of the country, but by obtaining informa tion from respectable and doubtful sources, and cam paring them with each other. He should read to the House an extract from a letter to the Secretary of State, received in December, 1816 :—" I cannot conclude this hasty report without calling your Lord ships particular attention to the circumstance, that these disorders do not proceed from distress or want of employment, or from the scarcity or dearness of provisions ; but they are the offspring of a revolu tionary spirit, consequent and connected with the meeting in Spa-fields ; and that nothing short cf eh3eiLe is the Constitution is in contemplation of the leaders and agitators."—(Hear, hear, hear.)- -Now he would ask, tf such reports were. received from a Justice of Peace in a remote and tranquil county, from an obscure Magistrate reposing under the shade of his own vines, if vines could exist there, and not from the Lord Lieutenant of a County, whom Lingo calls, not only a Justice, but a Master of Justices—from the Lord Lieutenant of the West Riding of Yorkshire—(loud cheering)—what Minister would be justified in disregarding it, merely because the existence of a conspiracy might afterwards be denied? He knew that it would be said, that Earl Fitzwilham `(the Lord Lieutenant of the West Riding lof Yorkshire) had since retracted his opinion ; hut at the time when it was first delivered, it was information on which the Government must have taken immediate measures. They were taken, and had received the ap probation of the House—to be sure it was that of a majority, and it might have been wiser originally to have settled that a minority should carry the point ! lie would defy all the historical and legal research on the other side, to point out a single instance of a conspiracy in any country, despotic or free, in which some persons or some party did not deny the exist ence of a conspiracy after it had been crushed—he meant an internal plot by obscure persons, who, from inability to discharge the thundefoolt against the fa bric of the State, endeavoured to destroy by under musing it. Spies he condemned as an evil—but until , there could be found a nett without *ire, children, ' or social connection, with affluence and above interest, a man of unsullied virtue, and restless investigaticn— without a spot, but most anxious to discover the spots of others—until this faultiessenonster, this phc• nomenon beyond the notions of perfectibility of thepbi losophers of the I Sth century could be found, there was ho ahernatise, but employing such spies as they could meet, or letting the State go to wreck. The Honourable and Learned Gentleman would employ no spy whose moral character was not pure—What I a man with six children and two wives, of whom one had run away—a bigamist, c ap a bl e o f getting inkr. mation as a pretended accomplice. The Honourable Gentleman thought a man a bad witness if he had ever been in• drink or in love ; but why so severe upon the King's evidence ? 'Twas the double treason 1 1 that blackened him. Th e s i mp l e tra i tor was treate d with mildness. It was the half-damned traitor, like one of these spirits in a tragedy of Dryden; which is made to say, . " 1.141 f damned ar.d shocking to the ground I fell." With respect to Oliver, the m ot i on imputed 110 crime to him for which he was amenable to the laws, but the performance of that odious and disgusting duet which he had undertaken for the safety ct the country. It was certainly impossible that, not his words and representations alone, but his very existence amongst the disaffected, should not have operated at encou. ragement—(bear, hear, hear.) Ihe accession of a single new face was an accession of strength, and . therefore tended to encourage. Neither could it be expected that a man who ventured amongst conspi retors in disguise, should not be obliged to tell them Iles to support his character. If the Mihisters hal their option to detect conspiracies by unexeePtiouable means, or by the employment of betrayers, they would not hesitate to prefer the first. But the ques tion was, whether they would employ the only means which offered themselves? He repeated the statement of an Hon. Friend of his, that not one human being had been deprived of his liberty for an hour on the testimony of Oliver. - They hid been taken up •on testimony totally Unconnected with him, aed to which he had served only as an index, and in few cases. —As to the trials at Derby, they did not prove that extraordinary measures had been necessary ; but they proved that the general statement on which tose men. sures were founded, was correct. On the whole, he thought that the House could have no hesitation ie disposing of the motion of the Host. Gentleman. If his object was the condemnation ofliuisters, he had • a shorter me.hcid, as it had been avowed that none of the measure's asked for had been adopted. Let hint make that his ground of impeachment. If he only wished to punish:Oliver, the answer would be, that the authority to which his motion referred, the Re port of the Secret Contraittee,•assigued so crime what ever to that individual. The language cf that Le port imputed an abet, and net an intention, to the conduct of certain persons, arid it was necessary to prove an intention before an individual could be con sidered liable to be tried. He thought, therefore, that there was no occasion to push the House to a envision on the motion on the - table, which, if carried, woold confer on its movers and supporters, a task in:pot-sit:le to execut Hear, hear.) . -..- . Sir SAMUEL ROMILLY, in explanation,. stated that he felt it due to himself to correct what, he I deemed a . gross inisrepresentaticm. He did Oes . ae the /tight- tYtltteatralsft teentlemaiiria - stated, that the House did not dare to do a certain thing. The Right Honourable Gentleman had, he presumed, misunderstood him, although he was sure that no. other person could have done so. All 'be ventured to say was, that the Members of that Hcusc w ou ld not dare to face their constituents if they acted .hi tl:e manner which he deprecated - hut in. th is he did • not mean to allude to the Righ t Honourable Gentle-. man's confidence to meet his electors at Liverpool. The Learned Gentleman concluded with obscrieug,• that the Right Honourable Gentleman did not appear to be aware of the difference between spies and in formers; because:although it might be right to at-. tend to the latter, it might be utterly , unjustifiable to employ the forther. - Mr. TIERNEY observed, that among the adstn- . tages which the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Can ning) had-over him was this, tlrat he had had full two hours start of him. Of this, however, he would not complain, nor of the length of his speech, al though three quarters of it consisted of eprams, spangles, and embroide r y —( H ear , h ear , an d a laugh. - He would pass over the Right Hon. Gentle/nazis al lusion to the Millenium, to Robespierre, and the-or ganized shouts, but he could not overlook the Right Hon. Gentleman's angry remark upon the words that the House dare not do so and so, without adverting to the language of the Right Hon. Gentleman'ethreat upon a former occasion, that if the House would act in the manner which he then deprecated, an appeal would be made to the people: he meant in 1807, when the Right Hon. Gentleman menaced the House with dissolution if it opposed his opinion, and when his words were ordered to be taken down. The Right Hon. Gentleman had said that he would chase away the Motion before' the House, which he 'thought proper to characterize as quite prepOsterous; but if the Right Honourable Gentleman had not succeeded in his effort, he would call upon the Clerk to read it, Now what was the Motion? Why simply this, to prefer a reference to the Secret Committee, which would ascertain whether that Comthittee was good for any thing. - This, indeed, he and his friends were ... willing to try, and it *as strange that the Right Hon. Gentleman should object to the experimeet, The Right Hon. Gentleman had asked, what would Gentlemen have but the fact that no prod bad taken place? He would, however, answer, asat i t was his wish to have that fact formally avowed as a ground for fartherproceedings—(Hea r , Aeo n )._ But it seems, according to the Right Hoe. Gentle man, that nothing had been dene by Gov ernment against . the fomenters of disturbance alluded to i n . the Report of the Committee, because, is he said, nothing could be done. But it appeared extraordi nary to his mind, that it would Ise impossible to maintain an indictment against a man, who, being employed for a good purpose, - had, on the contrary, directed his exertions to a bad purpose. But he now °understood he why P i t 7 l g at s that were t ta erso ken es aga ret i c e r s t e u l po iv n et his f e o m r plo a y P erswas such as they could not ccn veniently withstand. Oliver was not, however, he supposed, the only person alludedto hi-the Report of the Secret Committee of the last Sessicn, cr silk h trials at • first been an imp(); knew this , with is is reason di facts Whi ,• ;Hate, Orlley Gem tts of cre ztle=en op • defeat & Eere, 1 mad bet „try will r • ms. Fol instruct tl speech of • urst), It Lund churl 1 r. WILBI ..ght, as a ..t to say, t reference ought • .ded on a bane b • . Th • have been ultaneous 10311 0 0 .11,1 down to *thing to a, it stns: hypot opinion • Lk:. info! 7 in c Comm ..t made I the pa I be no ..1 be re I ce, and 't—(Hen t gain frC ' •• ; but, oyed, he • d oul c who r in his of • tot, tha • er, he employ t suppo r t ; t dation • don h a out so di E the pros • caLed • SOLI is thcj d rt of the Pc: 1"4•.• • L • I IC: CU ;1:1 a- '1:v.!l-n :e r.. y, to t:;!77 to (i-„tie:, ,:171 Id. . it I*..nit c• i • • A 14 ‘l, tit It A