Star. — London, England, 1802-12-16 00:00:00

PAR lAMEN7 PROGA6DIAGS. HOUSE OF LORDS, WEDNESDAY, DEC. Is, The Sul vc.yor General of the Crown Land% brought up cer tain Reports cones ning the fame, which aver • laid on the Table. Me Fier Millions Exchequer Big,. Bill—the (Zt2allfication lnde'•nity Bill—and the Petition Duty Bill,went through their refpeetive ftages. PEACE ESTABLISHMENT. The .Order ache Day was moved for the Houfe to go into a Committee on the Malt Duty Bill. — This called up— Earl Ss lac sa, who began with explaining what he meant on Monday, by laying, that he agreed to the extent of die proposed eftablithment ; he cer tai..ly agreed to its extent, in as far as it exceeded the ordinary peace eftablithment ; but he had tome rbfervations to make upon it, which naturally di vided themlelves into three heads. Firft, the un- parliamentary and unconftitutional mode in which I the augmentation had been propoted, without any I previous explanation to Parliament . Secondly, 1 The detail and proportion of the prnpoted eftablifh silent, as compared with the ttate of the countrT, and its defence from invation ; and thirdly, 1 o whom the application of fuch an encreafed force was to be entrufted. With regard to thb firft of Oleic three heads he had enlarged upon it fo much, and it had been dircuffed fo fully on Monday, that he did not think it necetfary to take up the time of the Houfe with it then, though he thould feel it neceffary to record his fenfe of fo irregular, un ufual, and unconftitutional a proceeding on the I Journals of the Houle. With regard to the pro portion of the ellablithment, much might be faid ; 130,000 men, with our 'militia eftablithment, and our volunteer corps, might be fu ffi cient for the in ternal defence and proteaion of the kingdom, but he did not think So poo feamen fufficient, when he confidered that Martinique and the French Well India Wands were given up to the French, and probably the Cape was in their hands likewife. His Lordfhip reafoned at tome length on this head, declaring that, according to report, it was faid by a Noble Admiral high in office, that we might have an additional fleet of 6o fail of the line manned and equipped for fee in a month. He much doubt ed that any Inch large additional force could be got ready for Pea in fo fhort a time: After dilating on this head ) die Earl came to his third head, viz. The confideration into whore hands the eftablifh ment was to be entrufted ; and, when he confidered that the prefent Milliliters had loft his confidence, be could not agree to the giving them the right to apply fo great a force in what manner they chofe, sfpetially when they claimed the novel and un beard of confidence of being allowed to employ the whole or what part of this eftablithment they thought fit. Such a difcretion was direaly in the teeth of former praaice, and even the praaice of the laft SeiLon • of Parliament, when a different military eftabliihment had been voted at three le sreral periods. Why not follow that praaice now , and vote the eftablithment only for a few months, and then retort to Parliament again ? His Lord- Stip went into a long train of reafoning on a va riety of points which he had infifted upon in his f‘righ on the laa night when this fubjea was under ffion.—He finished a fpeech of great ability by voting againft: tyre further provers of the Bill, without tome information refpetamg the relative ituation of this country and Foreign Powers, which could juftify their Lordthips in contenting to Co large an eftablifhment as Minifters had pro pofed for the fervice of the year. The Earl of Surromt, in a fliort fpeech, exa minee', in detail the military meafures of the late Adminiftration, fhewed that in every inflance they were difaftrous, and deprecated the return of men who had entailed filch mifery on the country, to his Majefty's Connie's. He expreffed great afto nifhment at hearing Noble Lords accufing the pre fent Minifters of propofing meafures to the Houfe, on the ground of confidence, when he confidered what was the fyftem on which the late Adniiniftra • tion bad abed. They had abed beyond all former Minifters on that very fyftem of confidence which thefe Noble Lords now reprobated. Confidence, indeed, was the grand fupport of their power. The Noble Lord, before he fat down, declared that Minifters had hitherto done nothing to forfeit the confidence of the country ; "and, as long as they ailed on the fame principles, they were welcome to his cordial fupport. He cared not who were Minifters, lithe good of the country was confult.- ed.—For himfelf, he fought neither for places, for honours, nor for preferment. He wilted not to be warped by connexion. His mind was indepen dent, and he gave his opinion on every fubjed from the bell judgment which he was able to form. — His Lorclfhtp was for the motion. The LORD CHANCELLOR quitted the,Woolfack, and obferved, that he fhould not thus early have obtruded himtelf on the attention of their Lord- Alp, had not fomething fallen in the debate, per tonally applying to himfelf ; and he was alto im pelled to come forward, by the urgent and impor tant nature of the queftion before the Houfe.— The quellion regularly before their Lordfhips was, whether they would read the order for going into a Committee to confider of. Bill of Supply, which . not only went to dice the Military Eftablithments, but even the Civil Exitlence of the Country : it was a Bill, which in that Houfe had been regu larly voted without oppofition, from year to year, and which they would bear in mind, not only re garded the Naval and Military, but the Civil Etta' blithments of the Country. In the courfe of what bad fallen. from the Noble Earl who (poke laft, Tome obfervations had been made which he felt - himfelf iniperioully called upon to anfwer. They regarded that part of the conduift of the late Ad troniftration, which related to the meafures adopt-1 ed by them, againft thofe who were endeavouring, by means of Sedition and Treafon, to deftroy the Government 'aid to fubvert the Conftitution of the Country. The guilt of thofe meafures, if guilty they are, lay as much on his 'boulders as on thofe an Member of the late Admi o •/4could, a ree that their Inc . • -- , lc and void of .. t, in cafe of ne .,, • • I lot .it • • J•eir predeceffors to (care it ; . and timid they hefitate upon fuch falutary aid faving meafures, he would no longer form a part pf that Adminiftration ; but the rea ions they were not reforted to, was (imply becaufe they were not neceffary. He would not follow the Noble Lords in thole pints which were irrelevant to the fubjeCt in difculfion, nor, particularly, the Taft Noble Speaker, through the whole condu't of the late Miniftry. With regard to them, how ever, he was aware, that no fet of men could more fully maintain the honour and preferve the happi nefs of the country in a greater degree than they did • and he fupported them through the whole of their Adminiftration with all his heart and foul. He would put it to the heart and feelings of the Noble Earl who took the lead in this debate, if the tendency of his arguments did not amount to this, that they ought to refufe their affent to the Bill of Supply before them ' • not becaufe the Eftablifh ments to be provided for by it were unneceirary or erceflive—not becaufe the fituation of the country did not obvioufly require them—but becaufe thole, in whole hands the application was intrufted, could not make a wife tile of them ? He had had the honour of fighting fide by fide with that groat Mi nifter fo often alluded to in recent debates, and he would ailc, would that great perfon refufe to anent to fuch a Bill as the prefent, at a moment when the circumstances of France rendered it neceffary that the country should be, not certainly with a drawn fword, but in a !late of readinefs to recur vigoroufly to defenfive meafures, should the con• duet of the fanner render it necefrary ? Such would be the conduct of that great man.—And with refpeti to the infinuations of charges againft his Majefty's prcfent Minifters, the language of the perfon he alluded to on former occasions was emphatically, that thofe who urged Addreffes for the removal of Miniflers, should boldly (lac the fpecific caufes upon which the proceeding fhoula be founded. Were contrary principles acted upon, the circulation, the vital blood of the country would be flopped. If Minitters were to be removed, let it be on diftinet and exprefs grounds : and here his Lordtbip having occafion to recur to the con duet and principles of the great Minifter before al luded to, fpoke of his character in (trains of the warmeß eulogium, as one whom the bounty of PROVIDENCE, with reference to his tranfcendant ta lents and virtue, caufed not his equal to be born in the courfe of centuries. He knew that great and virtuous man. to be grofsly abufed and libel led, while the objeet of his meafures was alone the prefervation of genuine freedom—to that end, he well knew, the thoughts of that perfon were anxi oullv direCted. Never yet did any man more rich ly deferve the applaufe of the virtuous and the good!. Recurring then to the fubjeet in difcuffion, the Noble and Learned Lord obferved, that in arguing the queftion, thofe in eppofition uniformly occupied the' , vantage ground :" they had refer red to the confideratton of alliances, and their of feas, without Teeming to confider how far that • Adminiftration of .which thofe Noble Lords fo worthily formed a part was implicated in thofe meafures. How many were figned by the late Noble Secretary of State, and were neceffarily dif folved even during his continuance in office ? The prefent Minifters had been repeatedly cenfured for reducing the forces of the country, but it was not confidered that fuch reduaion was neceffary, and often one of the moa deferable effeas of peace.— It was unnecelTary now to enter into a vindication of that important meafure ; he would only fer vently pray to Goa that it may not, as the Noble Lords had augured, (his hopes and conviaions were otherwife) turn out prejudicial to the coun try ; but, at any rate, the prefent vote was not to be decided by that meafure. With refpea to the Noble Earl's firU objection, as to the manner in which the prefent (apply was propofed, it was then unnecenry for him to anfwer it. In regard to his fecond point, the details of the efiabliffiments, it was tome fatisfaaion to him, that the Noble Earl. did not objea to them on the (core of extent. He did not profefs himfelf to be adequately converfant in thole fubjeas—but he could not refrain from obferving again, that the Noble Lords took the " vantage ground," in not confidering thefe Eita blifhments, with a reference to the naval and mili tary faculties of France, and in this point of view he doubted not, they would be found well appor tioned and commenfurate to the circumftances and 1 neceffities of this country : and in arguing thefe points his Lordihip difplayed much ability and in. formation ; and concluded with a refervation, that it could not fairly be faid, that the day may not arrive in which thefe forces may be confiftently and fafely reduced. But were the queftion to be decided on the grounds urged by the . Noble Earl, it were impoffible the funds and forces of the coml. try could be turned to a wife or falutary ufe. If fuch were the Noble Earl's real fentiments, he would put it to his juflice whether his motion fhould be not direCted againft the bill of Supply, but for the removal of Minifters ? Upon fuch principles he had always acted with the great man before alluded to, with the noble Lords them. felves, and with the anceftor of a Noble Lord on the Bench with them. With refpea to the peace, and the important circumftances connefted with it, he felt like an Englithman all over ; there were many points conne&ed with that, but more efpe cially with the prefent fubjea, which he fhould think himfelf very unworthy of the fituation be had the honour to hold, if he were weak enough to enter into a difeuffion of them at prefent. He (poke his rentiments' on this head, with the feelings of a man who humbly hoped that thofe who went before fhould not have to reproach them with fuch a derelittion of duty—they would alt upon the fame great and leading principles, and they would ftrive to preferve the peace, and-endeavour to fare 'the country. Earl &gam (poke fhortly in explanation, and obferved that the Noble Lord had mifappre,hended the objea of his argument when he fuppofedit was to fufpend the provers of the bill until the pre fent Adminiftration was removed—if he fhould have faid any thing to that deft, it was not his in. tension to have Paid it. , The Earl of Caw sot ob(erved; that what had been fo mifconceived was not the oblate Lords - - . • ... .t._ wesibingetn 2 their illrilibtlU9n!F condescend to tread in the neps-of their ancellorsi upon fimitar occaftons, and conform to the eftab-' tithed iivadice of Parliament. In every former inftance they required information ; and adequate explanation as to the reafons and caufes, always accompanied the reqtrifition. As things flood they were abandoned entirely to conjedure ; and they might be ftrongly inclined to think that fome ma terial change had taken place, when they recol leeted what was paired about the clofe of last Sef lion as an adequate eflablifhment, and compared it with what was demanded at prefent. The Noble Earl then adverted to the recent occurrences on the Continent, the acquifitions to the territories of France, and the affairs of Switzerland, refpe6t. ing which Minifters left the Houfe in complete ig norance. He repelled the idea, that the object of the prefent conduct of the Lords who arced with him was a change of Minifters ; neither was it a put of their views to urge them to a war : fuch infinuations were unfounded ; their real objeas were the honour and fecurity of the country. In the prefent inftance he infiftedit would be right to afford time to Minifters to follow the example of their anceftors upon fimilar occafions. The Earl of DARN t.zit delivered his fentiments upon the various topics in difcuffion at fome length. He teemed inclined on the whole to approve the condat of Minifters, but expreffed his apprehen lions in thong language, at the great and increaf ing power of France, which, conjoined with Ruflia, he was of opinion, could give Laws to the whole world, Great Britain excepted. He would fupport Minitters as long as they upheld the National Honour, and provided for its fecuri ty. At the fame time, he could pot withhold his tribute of applaufe to the charader Df the great Minifter fo often alluded to of late. His abilities, 7 -------- - tntegrity, an : above all his firmnefs, fpirit, and courage were beyond any thing he could exprefs. He then recurred to the fituation of France, and the charaCter of the perfon at the head of its Go vernment, whole ambition he confidered as f'ar from being fatiated. One great objc& of his am bition, he believed to be, the fubjugation of this country. He longed to break open the doors of the Bank of England with his legion of honour, and to plant the Republican tlandard on the Tower of London. He would freely fpeak his fentiments independent of Minifterial confiderations—he deemed large ellablifhments requifite in the pre fent [late of the country, and as fuch approved of the Bill before the Hotife. Lord HOBART commenced a very able and fpirited anfwer to the Noble Lords on the other fide of the queQion, by affirming, that the honour of the country had not been fullied by the conduit of his Majelly's prefent Minifters—Not one of them would continue in Office, were they neceffi• tated to fubmit to any ad which tended to fully the National Honour. With refpeet to the imme • diate fubjea in difcuillon, he mull exprefs his fur prize at the perfeverance of Lords in Oppofition, after the very candid and fatisfaCtory explanation given by his Noble and Learned Friend on the Woolfack, in the laft debate. He contended that the caufes for the Eftablahments thus called for were of fufficient public notoriety for Parliament to proceed upon. Nor was that all, he could as effeClually contend, that the meafures now under difcullion were duly and adequately adverted to in the Speech from the Throne. In illuftration of which pofition, his Lordthip read feveral [biking extradts—and it was to enable his Majefty to give effect, in cafe of neceffity, to the language fo de livered, that the augmentations in quellion were , deemed neceffary, and for which, he mull infift, the Royal communication had laid an adequate foundation : the charge of the Noble Lords, there fore, that the whole proceeding was relied on the ground of Public Notoriety, was unfounded.— Upon thofe principles it would be neceffary that his Majefly's Speech should be accompanied by a geographical defcription of France, and its ter ritorial acquifitions ; and alfo by a fchedule of her military eftablithments. When the Noble Lords admitted they did not object to the extent of the eftablithments, upon what folid or fub- Qantial grounds then could they advance? The Eilablifhments exiting in France, were matter for ferious confiderAtion in the difcuffion of the fob jed before them, and for the information .of the Houfe. His Lordthip read foine extraCti from a Publication, wherein the Land Forces,&c.ofFrance, were fpecified; their power, by cnie tlatem_ent there in, was ettimated at 495,000 men, and he argued, that this, joined to the other confiderations ad vanced in the courfe of the debate, were ample grounds for affenting to the fupplies already voted by the Houfe ,of Commons. His Lordfhip then flightly . adverted to fome occurrences which took place about the period of the refignation of the late Minifters, and argued therefrom in fitvour of his general conclufions. He was duly convinced of the delicate fituations in which Minifters were often placed, fituations which fometimes rendered it as neceffary to withhold Explanation, as it may be proper to give it in others. After adverting tofoine points connesled with the general fubjedt of difcuf ' Pion, in fome degree of detail, he drew inferences therefrom, and adduced additional arguments in favour of the immediate progrefs of :he Bill. Lord CARYSFORT objected that there had not been fufficient information laid before the Houfe, to authorize them to vote for the Supply demand ed, until more fatisfaCtory ftatements were made on the part of his Majefty's Mini tiers. His Lord fhip dlfcuffed at Come length the topics which have been already repeatedly urged refpating the re lative fituatiqn of the Country, and obferved that he could not help doubting how far his Mojelly's Minifters were intitled to confidence, when he con lidered the dangers to which th e Country had been expofed•cluring their Adminiftration. The Duke of NORFOLK expreffed his aftonifh mert at the oppofition given by thofe who once held the reins of Government, to the prefent mea fure. The perfon whe took the - lead in that Ad miniftration had, however, refined his fituation, when the country was in fuch a (late of diftrefs as to - call for the exertion of all his talents and powers. That perfon had abandoned his inflation, and the important troll repofed in him ; and the only rea fon affigned for fuch a dereliftion, was that given olic tn es pc:exefeean t n E fe m ‘ a v n a c s i .i p t a ti to af.-a-. e a cl e . fli W n h ( e )r th C er a t tb h nifters :i e ra r l f l 4 /I: o refs ry. .-- it ground, had nd, been that the refu q f . peace had YPetlrief:ltrod and adequate, it was not t i l e ien ::):::itn t (wt) a tf:h i n unprecedentedm; ak h he u e t pa l e i a e l cii w ed c o d t a i taaidiltmaintain,and unequalled th nd nce, to although the Trtthaeare: crimna une • 1" I " a Rate It was referved for his Ma• ' c w o a n s c i l n u dheids mind, under not be ever} confidered as good. He felt confident fupportcd by fad, when he Elated that the had given general latisfadion ; and h e • • in the lured that nine. out of ten aas count r y had ear cerely rejoiced at its conclufion, and nettiy hoped for its continuance. There were ty/ pal points, refpeding which it appeared ° Pr' ' '. that Mi lliners were particularly urged to enter into nations. The firft related to th e ee "Pia- M w convinced alta, and upon that he as •' 'cl ' atinn of that ar this moment any explanation they could • would be improper. The fccond point glvt; the imprifonment of Captain D'Auv er Pe6ed gne ; h ut if the Noble Lord who had alluded to that circurn: fiance had any certain documents to produce, on which he could ground a motion for an Addrefs to his Majefty, it became his duty to ado pt that condo& Until then, it was impollible fo Houfe to entertain in a fetious manner reportsr the and allufions of fo vague a nature. Every Noble Lord recolleded, no doubt, the llory of C apt. Jenkins, which, during the Adminiftratioof n Sir Robert Walpole, had nearly involved the nation in a war with Spain ; yet it afterwards turned out t o b e a mere tale, without the flighteft foundation. Hi s Grace concluded by declaring, that he confidtied himfelf junified in giving his lupport to the piell.nr Minifters ; and he hoped they would not cond-- fcend, in confequence of any iMportunities, to enter into explanations which might prove impro per, and even dangerous. Lord GRENVILLE role immediately after the Duke of Not folk, and, in a fpeechof great ann Illation, which, from its length and latenefs oldie hour at which he concluded, we are unable to give in detail, vindicated his own d con ue , and that of the Noble Lords who oppof d e the reading •of the Order of the Day. His Lordfhip addreiled the Houfe to the following off, eet My Lords ' I am warranted, by the experience which I har e had of the difcuffions that have taken place in this Houfe, fince I have enjoyed the honour f o a feat in it, in raying, that I never recoiled a greater degree of perverfion given in any former inflance to your Lordfhips' debates, than that which has been introduced this evening by my Noble Friend on the woolfack. The preterit queflion, I beg I may be clearly and preciftly underftood, does not relate to the flopping of the fupplies. No filch willp—no loch intention has, I am confident, been entertained by myfelf, or the Noble Lords ,'ho have delivered their fentiments on this fide of the Houfe. All our obfervations merely tend to the time, and even if the queflion of time be confider ed, I maintain, that fhould the order of the day for the reading of the Bill be deferred, nothing can be loft by the Noble Lords who are fo earneft and (Irenuvus in fupport of the motion. For it is undeniable, that fhould a meffage or communica tion from the Crown be made tomorrow, no time will be loft, fince the Bill, after that circumftance, may be committed and read a third time the fame day. When I confider the filtration of your Lord (hips at the prefent moment, I am the more dtfi rous to prefs upon your minds, the propriety, and indeed the necefilty, of asting in conformity to your enablifhed rules and forms. We are none at the mutant when the commitment of the Bill is agitating, without any meffage or communiratioa upon which we can ground our proceedings, re 7 quired to deviate from the ufages of the lionfe- We have yet to learn, whether the e nabliflienent, taken either as a land or naval ettablithinent, or as both, is calculated for avar, for peace, or Ito pre parationsfor war. lam not fo ignorant of the cuftoms of Parliament as not to know, that we are without any kind of precedent to fanaion the line of condua we are now called upon to adept. Let thofe .Noble Lords, who contend with me upon this point, refer to the pradice purfired by our anceftors, and they will find that the objec tions I make are not light and trivial. Let th em look to the- Treaty of Utrecht ; iu that they wail find nothing to fandion their proceedings. Let them review the concequences, I (peak coniiitittien ally, of thi•treaty of Aix-la-Chapelle, in them they will difcover they are notborne out. If they willvke the trouble to revert to the proceedings which fol lowed the Spaniih Convention, the Treaty of Pa ris, and that of Verlaine% they will candidly al• low that they are unftipported by any thing lila precedent. When a Peace Eilablifuuuntlike the prefent was propofed, I did expect to have force adequate grounds to fandioo the proceedings of this Houfe in fupport of filch an ellablithinent. — What was, let me 'ail:, the c ondod of Gover ment in the time of George the Firlt ? That Mo narch, in the fpeech which ire deliverethfrom the throne, after the peace, did . not hefitate to declare , it infecure and precarious. M ere then exitte . f ffi • Ipowerful • t horice Parlia pledges u cient y to AU I ment to prnvidc, by large eftabliihment% aria I defenfive. for the fecurity of tl.e coo' try. *But, in the prefent inttance, there nothing like affurance, nothina inforrae c : tion; all is vague and contUfeS. With tell' to I myfelf, it may be neceflaiy. my Lo rds, C fay a few words. In the o ppolition nh:el i make to the prefent motion, I have the conicity!• tion to think, that I am juftified by every prince pie of continency. The Noble Secretary oppefi . te . to me will, I entertain no eoul)t, do me the ce jot . Lice to admit, that when I pledged mytelf to my fupport to Government, I did it in a art clear and romi s explicit manner, anal that I kept Y a S p long as I could do it contin en tly. But I felt my felf in honour bound to withdraw that fuppilto from the moment of the Convention with Knit-1a; and am mire forcibly from the conclusion of . Treaty of Amiens. After their events I mutt c( he fefs I no longer entertained a n y confidence iii t wifdom -of their Councils, and every day's , exO cl rience has confirmed me in that opinio.7. 1 tully convinced, when I con fider the chance= De and tht yery lush have' takenplace iu 6.