Star. — London, England, 1801-06-20 00:00:00

we -- MOUSE OF LORDS, FRIDA-T, JUNE IF- The Clerical Eligibility, and the Irak Martial Law Bins, fe 'era,' went through Canunittees of the whole Houfe, with out obfervation or amendment, and were ordered to be re&orted to-morrow. INDEMNITY SILL. . On the Order of the Day for the fecond reading of this Bill being read, Lord Hos ART expreffed his confidence that their Lordfhips mull, after perofingthe Reports of the Committees, be all impreffed with the neceffity for palling the Bill before them. The Legit'attire had recently, on more than one occafion, aged upon this principle, by their tufpenfion of certain Laws, which meafures gave rife to thofe Ads that ren ider the prefent Bill neceffary. The condua of the in dividuals whom the Bill went to protea, was pure. ly diaated by the duty of the parties, and the Cole (Ned was the fafety of the Public. Was not fuch a Bill patted, thefe perfons would be liable to pro. tecutions, and in their defence, would be ouch:- the necelfity of difclofing certain fources of infor mation, which it was not only their duty to con ceal, but was effential to the fecurity of the public. The prinZiple upon which the Bill proceeded was by no means new; in tome cafes, meafures of the kind were retorted to for the purpofe of tuppref fing Rebellion; in this prefent inftance, it was . principally with the view of preventing Rebellion, . and which, he trolled, would, in their Lordfhips eftimation, prove the more fatisfaaory MM. With refpea to the idea of limiting the operation of the Bill to the conclufion of the war, he deprecated fuch a proceeding as dangerous in the extreme, and obferved, that though no man could poffibly with for Peace more annoufly than himfelf, yet that hleffing may be more than counterbalanced by laying open thefe fources of information, and departing from that fyftem, by which alone the internal tranquillity of the country was preferred. As he confelfed he could not anticipate thofe ob. jeaions which fome Noble Lords may offer to the mature, he fhould not then detain their Lord (hips ' farther on the fubjea, but (imply move that 4 , this Bill be now read a fecond time." The Earl of &moms began with lamenting that it fell to his lot to open a debatr'upen a Bill of the higheß importance. So far, however, was he front thinking that thofe Minift ers deferved an in demnity for their condua under the different Bills for fufpending the Aft of Habeas Corpus, he be lieved they had greatly abided the powers granted to them, and that many had been detained in pri . fon for years! under eircunthences of peculiar hard . , hip and opprefflon, who had repeatedly defined to be brought to their trial, but againft whom no charge bad been regularly made fo as to put them . . upon their defence before a Jury of the country. . . it was this fort of conduit, the ilFuing of Lenra de . Cadet, this fpeeies of bad Government that had . • . been the primary route of the fubvafion of the ~ • Government in a neighbouring kingdom. With regard to the laft Re.po of the Secret . Committee, the contents of that R . port referred tither to 're late' than to this country, and therefore he thould . continue to call it an frith Report, and not an Sir asap and he was juftified in regarding it as un- Igneadhenicsrautheh a Bill as that under con - hiheaksis 41/MI listerd, however, to the for _ -, • - . sal hooky of thelate Miniaers in exer et ' pat into their hands by the Aft' Sir the Habeas Corpus, let their Lord • gsgri two inftanees which he would fe. MMlt efillitily thit offered themfelves to his mind. The can, that of a Noble Lord tried fora few int words inadvertently uttered in a Court of •• That Noble Lord had been fentenced to s twelvemonth's imprifonreent in the Tower. . • . Had ay period of the time been abridged or re '- . • matted f Not he continued in the Tower the whole time. The Giber inftance which he would mention, was that ars stable relation of his, who ate pub lic aparivial waft had indifcreetly let drop a fear imprudent wank but which, when he became mare cool. be was extremely lorry to have uttered; and k was well known that the Noble Duke, in the boars of fallivity and facial mirth, was extremely d perhaps ocra fi onally unguarded in his e aan s. For this mighty offence his Majefly's immediately removed the Noble Duke - from dm Lbrd Lieutenancy of a county, a matter Ida& be eafily fubtnitted to; but Miniften did NM; and wlnchafeady hurt his Noble Relation's *s, thuiateved him of his command of a 'pate bell Militia regiment in the which by his uncommon attention tbe bad mode them, and was confider- V =4 ed bribe= ass father. He was aware that when the Noble Dabs went down to Portfmoutb to take his leave of his regiment, which was then quarter- 1 ed in that town, reports were circulated that he went there for a different purpofe than that which carried him. At that time the mutiny pre• vaned is dm dem o and meow mated of an ap i=saillasrffilkloas tO the it N is obl ti te uk:le " s der g butfure.°Vwentftaro other con ciliate th: minds of the officers—to reconcile them ' I to the lots of their Colonel, and to perfnadc them not to rcfign their commiffinns. In this he fuc ceeded, for there was no refignation but one Lien tenant-Colonelsy ; the other officers continued in . the regiment, though they had all of them refigq. ed finer. He would add, the Earl laid, a few more ob(ervations, but, after panting a moment or two, he clapped his hands to his breall, and fait!, be felt fo much for his country, and was fa much ' overcome by his feelings, that be could proceed no further. The Earl of C AAAAAA ON rofe next, and Paid the Noble Secretary of State had not liilliciently flitted the grounds on which the expediency of the Bill retied. The Noble Secretary had merely {aid that there was need but of little explanation, as the Bill was grounded on the Report of the Secret Commit tee. Surely the Noble Lord would feel it his duty to explain the grounds of the Bill more folly. The SIIICIIIIT•ItY of STATE appealed to the Houle if he bad not exprefily . Rated that the Bill went to indemnify his hlakfy's late Miniflers from any •, ~~. ~`b i vets perazis furpeded of high treafon and treiron able practices, becaufe it would be impoffible for thofe Minifters to juftify or defend the fame with. out an open' difclofure of the means by which the Paid traiterous defigns had been difcovered. That. Lord Hobart thought, was all the opening and ex-, *nation that the Bill required. The Earl of CARMAIVON denied that what the Noble Secretary had juft repeated was by any means an adequate explanation for a Bill of that great importance. It was a Bill, he raid, that con ferred irrefponfibility on hisMajefty'sMinifters for all their conduft, clnring the whole period of time that the Habeas Corpus Ad had been fufpended. There was a falutary maxim in our conftitution. viz. That the King could do no wrong. To the he cordially and completely fubfcribed, becaufe be knew and admitted twat it was extremely lulus-I tageous to the fafety of the Rate and the tranquil- lity of the kingdom, that the Sovereign (hould not be held to be perfonally refponfible for any parted . ] his conduit, but that the refponfibility fhould rell wholly with Minifters. No man ever thought of applying to them the maxim that fo properly ap plied to the Sovereign. Would it not be monftrous to fay that Minifters could do no wrong ? In that cafe how could the Commons impeach Minifters for their bad advice, and their bad conduct ? How could they bring them to their Lortlfbips' Bar and try them on charges of high treafon ? It was abfurd and unconflitutional to make them irrefpon. fible. It was what no wife Parliament ever dreamed of, becaufe it muff diredly open a door to practices and conduct highly dangerous and detrimental to the great public interefts of the country. It ought not to be done for a fingle hour; but what did this Bill do ? It gave them irrefpon libility for ever. He could eafily fuppofe, the Earl raid, that great inconvenience would arife. if ac tions commenced by perfons who had been arreft ed and imprifoned, were to be immediately brought to trial ; but was that any reafon that they never Mould be brought to trial ? If a power was given to ftirpend all fuch anions for a limited time; if the Bill was to continue in force for one year only, or even to the end of the war, he would not objed to it, but he never would content to an unlimited irrefponfibility, becaufe let their Lordfhips cone der what an unwarrantable injury would refult to the individuals who had been confined, as they fop pored innocently confined, (and innocent in the eye of the law and of the Conftitution they muff (land) under circumftanees of great hardfbip and oppreffion—They would Rand branded and mark ed for ever, as perfons fufmded on good grounds of treafonable practices; their chaffers would be torn from them by violence and injtilliee, and al though they (matted under the feeling of infinite injury, they would be deprived for ever of the con. ' filtutignal and legal means of defending themfelves, proving their innocence in the face of their coun try, and obtaining damages for the wrong that had been done them. For there and other reafons which his Lordthip Rated, he Paid he fhould vote itift the Bill The LORDCHMICILLOR defendedtheßillas anse of juftice to thole who had been inftrumentaltinpro. (erring the Conftitution againft the molt redoes attacks that were ever made againft it. He ad. , mined that the fufpenfion of the Habeas Corpus did not take away. refponfibility from Minifters; he should be lorry it did. Mena - els ought to be , refponfible for every .4, but whilft their endss. Yours were directed to the preferration of every "thing that is dear to Engliflnen, he thought they ought to be preceded from litigious and vexatices profecutions. A report had gone abroad that he, had laid Minifters fhould never want indemnity, This he pofitively denied. He denied alto, that this Bill was to indemnify Minifters, or to table from them any refponfibility for ads which could not be juftified.—The Bill was called for by pa.. ticular circumftances to primed thofe who said under his Majefty's Government, and Unveils whoremea'ns the ConUitution was preferred. He was Attorney-General under the late Adminiftra tion, a fituation which placednorefponfibility upon him for the ads of that Adminiftration, therefore he could not be fuppofed to be interefted in the patfing of the prefent Bill. In his fituation he bad merely to give his opinion as to points of law z but he had an opportunity of knowing the circus'. • fiances tinder which many committals took place; and in his opinion, his Majefty's late Miniftert would deferve the execration, inflead of the admel ,l ration and confidence of the people of England, if they had not ailed with that promptners and vigour which marked their dircuffions. He was not fo incredulous as his noble and Learned Friela (Lord Thurlow), as to believe there was no dais. gcr to be apprehended from fuch exertions—fish machinations--as were ufed to overturn the Coe: flitution ; though he was ready to admit it to be his firm belief that the great mats of the people were loyal. If Minifters bad not taken the Reps they did to counteract the evil defigus of the dif affeabd. and to protect the loyal, in his opinion 'they would have deferved to have their heads brought to the block. With refped to the fur gellion of the Noble Lord (Suffolk) of palfing d the Bill for the Ripulated term of a year, or eves during the war, lie could not concur with the No. ,ble Lord. He thought it belt to let the matter et reft for ever, fince spies and informers were sot, only denoonced as objects for all:Amnion, but the perfons alto who employed them. He thought if Noble Lords vvould take into their confiders: trop all the circumflances under which his Ms. Jelly's Knitters aged, they would not refute their, Ant to the prefent Bill. Much of the informs. don upon which Minifters sided came from the Continent. For the fake of argument he would fuppofe it obtained through the means of fecret fervice money. He would therefore oh the Hear* if it would be honourable—if it would be confer tent with trne policy—to expofe filch information. No Noble Lord in that Houk would more deeply regret than himfelf the ponithrnent of an innocent individual—if one fufferc.l, it was one too many.— But in such a Rruggle for all that was dear to Englishmen—when turrnuoding nations were over whelmed by the Jodrines againit which his hlajef. were rather tol be regretted then condemned. He believed every man in the country would acquit his Majefty'sl late Minifters of a with to opprefs innocent per- 1 1 Eons. His Lordfhip then entered into a defence of the conduit of the Committee. He Paid there were many precedents for the Bill, not only that: in the years :7:5 and 1745, which be confidered i to be nearly cafes in point, but one (till ftronger, and which was the aa of thole-very perfons who brought about the Revolution, the principles of which are fo often held up to that Houk as a mo del for itscondua—previous to the landingof King William, the Minaters of that time, who were gu.. nerally allowed not to poffefs principles inimical to liberty, ordered feveral perfons to be appre. hended, under a fufpicion that on the arrival of that Monarch difturbances might arife, which thofe perfons were likely to promote ; for this they, afterwards obtained a Bill of Indemnity. In coati eluding . his Lordfhip Paid, if their Lordfhips had not a mind to hurl their Sovereign from hisTbrone, or to turn themfelvesout of there doors, they would pafs the Bill before them, which he moft earneftly abjured them to do, if they willed to preferve that Conftitution which was f ecured to them by the blood and virtue of their Anceßors, and he de. fired them not to be afraid to do thefe alts which their Anceftors did as well for pofterity as far themfelves, Lord MOIRA confidered the Bill as a meafure calculated to detach the people from their alle giance. He contended that to meafures of oppref lion the Rebellion in Ireland was to be attributed. He reprobated the proteftion given to (pies and informers, whom he conceived to be not only the molt odious, but the moil dangerous perfons in the State. Thole men, he Paid, when they .had no real information to give, mutt forge plots and ma tins, for the ,purpofe of keeping themfelves in pay. In the documents laid before the Houle, he could not fee caufe to arrell a tingle man. He thought, as fo many perfons had been apprehended for fah a length of time as four or five years, that Mini. tiers, to Phew that fuch feverity was juftified, ought tp have brought them to trial, or have given that an opportunity of vindicating their charafters by letting the laws of the country have their regular courfe, and not fufpend them by loch an unnatural aft as the prefent. He then adverted to the chit cumftance of the confinement of Lord Cloncurry, who, he hid, was deprived of liberty for two years under the molt aggravating eircumftances of op preffion. That Wade Lord was never permitted. during the whole of his imprifonment, to be oar}, moment in his room without being attended by a guard of two men, who were relieved every two. hours. He was never permitted a moment's relax. at ion at a time when it was well known he labour ed under the molt fevere allliaions. The Lady oo whom his Lordfhip was engaged, fell a facnfiat. to her feelings for his Lordfhip's fituatioa, and the death of his I,ordThip's father loon followed. Un• der there accumulated misfortunes, be made re. peated applications to be brought to trial, but be made them in vain. He himfelf applied to the Se cretary of State for that purpore.—lie then took a retrofpea of the Rate of the country fine the commencement of the war, regretting that the pro. fpeft of h% conclufion was not very flattering; and concluded by hoping the amendment recommend ed by the Noble Lord (Suffolk) would be adopted. The Earl of WESTMORELAND fupported the Bill, and defended the condua of his Majefty's Maim The Duke of BIDFOID faid, that by the , their Lordthips were not called upon to fufpend the rights of his Majefty's Cubic& for a time, but &dually to deprive them of their rights. His Grace complained of the manner in which the Committee bad been formed, nor did be think, from their Re- I pea, that matters had been fully inveftigated.— His Grace expretkd his forrow for the murder of Lord O'Neil, &c. but thought that the meafnres which had been adopted, had tendency molt fatal to the peace and pro(perity of the country. Lord TN o a tow was of opinion that the laws of the land, if coolly and Readily adminiftered, were of themfelves fufficient to reprefs any attempts of (edition or treafon againft the Rate, and therefore did not fee any necetfity for a meafure fo ftrong and revere as the prefent Bill propofed. &fides, it did not Rate any reafon but eepedismoy; this furely was not enough to juftify Admisibotiao in depriving men of a fair and ilniartiel trial. which the laws of England allowed. 14e had beard much of confpiracies and infurreftion; thde, the Bill did not Rate, and be did not know where op look for them. Petitions had been frequently prolioned by perfons confined under the late Mt, proplog for a trial which they could not obtain, and thhhe deemed a ftrong prefumption of their innocence. He had not only expreired himfelf in terms of com paffion for thole unfortunate men, but fincerely felt for them under their grievance. The fyflem that this Bill held out, was a fyftem of governing through (pies and informers, a race of men, whom everyhiftorian, from the' clays of Tacitus, the Ro man writer, has clehribed in the warmth and vi gour of their imagination, as odious, feandalois and infamous, and who degraded the laws by mak ing then: fubfervient to the befell purpofes, by opprafing the innocent, and confounding all dif flinaion between the innocent and guilty. He objeeted to the power that this Bill would pars into the bands of Minilters, from its tenct:ncy to de grade and debafe the heart of man, who is infen. hbly, bur rapidly, corrupted by its abufe and ea ercife. The Bill, he thought, fhould not be in. definite in its term of duration, becaufe it fhould not cut off all hope of rcdre(s from the aggrieved. Were it for a year, and during the year, fuch a limitation would check many el the :tholes which mutt neceffarily fpring op under it, and hold out hch relief as may at lean be expeeted under the preffiire of the leveret necaLty. The Earl of ROSILY!, (poke at length in defence of the meafure; and contended, that the public ,interat required the fources of government infor mation fhould be kept fecret, as they were thereby enahcd to defeat the future machinations of the diftaffeaed focietie%. With refpeet to the charge of berth treatment to Losd Cloneurry, he allured the kioufe that he had a letter from that Noble. for their good and humane treatment of his fon. The quellion was then put; on the motion of which the Houle divided—Ayes 40. Proxies to . —Noes 14, Proxies 7. For the Bill 50—Againa it U.—Majority 29. Adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS. The Co !italics Allowance Bill; the Public Boards Printi ng Indemnity Bill; the Land Tax Redemption amended Bill; and the Dublin Society Bill trim read a third time and pared. The Public Noun ies Bill was taken Into further coofsiera lion, and ordered to be read a third time to-morrear. Mr. Bin nno t brought up the R court of the Conernittees re betive to the execution of the Arneriun Treaty in Ireland ; and Me the Bounties on Corn imported into Ireland, which went fee verany reed and agreed to. • Mr. Bawoos moved for Willett, bring in a BM im allow the balding of Rum imported - Into Ireland before payment of duty. Leave given. A Bill for granting Bounties net Silt imported; a Bill for con tinuing certain Laws relative to the Siberia ; a Bill for repeal ing the old and impoung new duties on Statue., Marble, and fcuiptured Stone Imported; and a Bill for is:spotlit( canal* duties on Playing Card. imported, were feverally perfeneed. raid a Aril time, and ordered to be read a fecond time to-mor row ; and alfo a Bill for repealing certain duties on kith Mien tnts, to he reed., fecund time on Monday. The Infolvent Ochres Bin was taken into further confider atton, when fomeconverfation arch rdathre to the Chide ex cbdiageermin paeans in Ireland by name. Were= Mr. Stu ll! DA N, who &petal to it, and moved to Vane the further conaderation of the Bill till Monday,- .Ti M r . ffitacsoa. and Mr. Coaay. Tbe motion cants. Sheath; was negatived. Oa the motion for the paling of the 818, Mr. Joints wilied to propefe as Amendment, to l'obftitote the eft of janttary for the aft of March, bra was informed by the Speaker it was too late. The Bill was at length paired. The frith Militia Pay, the kith Hop Importation, and the frith Judges' Accommodation Bill, vivre reed a famed than, sod .ordered to be committed to-marrow. The Idhla Sugar Drawbeekdie Newfoundbnd 1416 imp*. tion. the Letter of Marque, the Hoge Duty, the Bucheillter Loans; and Vote of Credit Bills, were committed, and, oftia. al to be reported to-morrow. The frith Wheat Exportation, and tle7 King's Debts Reno. very Bills were Reported. and Ordered to be read a third time to-morrow. CLERGY NON-RISIDINCE Mr. MCClitsollaSseed the order of the day for a Committee on tbe above Bill. On the motion for the Speaker's leaving the Chair, Mr. &mow oppofed it, and read a quotation from Jofeph Andrews, relative to the various avo cations purfued by Parfon Trulliber, for the par , pore of trawling the Bill before the Hoare, which, be commie* went to make Parfon Trullibers of I all the . Cl in the kingdom. He could not ary content to a .ow the Clergy to become Jobbers and Farmers, nor could he content to difpenfe with their refidmce. He was not fo hoililely difpofed towards Common Informers, as foam Gentlemen appeared to be, conceiving them to be not only at. eeltary,but frequently thebenefadtors of the Public. Mr. NicnoLis followed on the fame fide, and, purcuing a fimilar (train of argument, ilikewife op pofed the motion. Mr. Gasoot fupported the motion. He was ferprifed to hear Gentlemen arguing relative to 'Clown= being rendered Jobbers and Farm", apbes there iris nothing in the Bill that had any dab tendency, and when they would hill be pre vented from hemming fo, except with refpe& to their Glebe Lands. He thought it was at any rate but fair that the Bill thould go to a Committee, that the grievances complained of by the Clergy might be fairly difcollid and examined. He was well acquainted with inftances where had been moil Wittily and unjufily - ca. der the operation of the Bill, and be die means at prefent in the hands of leibminers In tiaras the Clergy, tended very ninth to die* that refp!fiable body. . Mr. HILWRIN3 BIOIVNI Paid, •that from the fixeches of %me Honourable Gentlemen one would have fuppofed every Clergyman was to be ordered to be a jobber, and every law main relidence to be repaded, The fait however ma, that the duties of die MMiary would be mew faithfully difcharged in confequenca of this IS. He denounced common informers as the greatelt• pelts of fociety, and thought every thing mould be • done to difcourage them.—(A loud cry of luar, 'from the Oppofinon Bench). He mentioned feve- . ral infiances of great hardlliip, and gave it as his opinion that the Clergy were entitled to Foca:ion from faits fo vexatious. Mr. Susatoaw obferved, that it WOO • 1111111610. fart, after what had patted, toemmbielblakilinnt length on the grounds which fbialiosed tie . 4cdag into the Committee. In fo forks agreed gnus the Hon. Gentleman vibe bad Was= that fide of the queflion. Thorn, eadte other lisiad,w= ed the Committee, fastaid Weave 'MCa the purport and &Bust tendency of the Da He was peculiarly gratified with Tome of the Aim tions which had dropped Ekes the la& 4aiokar. re lative to informers. Ha c hint on the fair and manly manner inw h k execrated and. • held up to merited infamy, die Meted chdli d pen, known by the appellation of isfonas jf at any former period the Ides. Gagianni had appeared to him to entertain Ibribmeab of * different nature, be was inclined to latribise k ra. ther to mifapprehenfion on his part. than to any inconfiftency in the comitta of that Gentleman.. Probably the • • , in this Mime, whisk. ,firuck his mad, from th e Hon. Oat dinnalef balls ' opeineadal ideas as ii* t 'be lad dosiiraide evades i ,tall iisiketamalteli retaken.. Oa diet pal=f could he reconcile the rapport which dieHaa. Oar deman had given to various immfuree, fettatied. 'Adel) , on the reports and aireseleas of ideniserss toad ozre particularly the 'Bill lately paired (die . Corpus Sufpenfion Indemnity 4111);which threw a ferret and a facred veil over thikpraillims al lilliwand informers. There was a fonts:thing pp alio* fingular in the manner in which thisisa vets had been taicen up and confidered. Gentleman ..proferal a great veneration for the clerical charm* art. and yet, at the fame tine, delcribed the Clasp es a fet of men, who only did their duty by ems putfion and who were ready to regret tbsir it m ties, the moosent dry could rid Lion. This, in his opinion, was a very SOO ious mode of compliment. It certalwiedlit at the Mini tiers of the Gofpal ins iblrand eous light, and was a peon& Mlle dos. y to be deprecated, what the midisieks lon ' • ' •• • • alos; ____ p