Star. — London, England, 1805-03-02 00:00:00

3 .roceeded with it in time of war, but the war came IT:Ion them, and they continued their enquiries. He was not at all furprized at the obfervations which had fallen from the Honourable Baronet, conGdyring at what place the perfons that Member had defended were refident. Sir WM. ELFORD utterly diklaimed the ilighteit pezfonal knowledge of the individuals to whom he alluded. Nay, he had no eonneaion whatever vith them, and aged wholly on public grounds. Sir CHARLES POLE difelairned any imputation calculated to make a quellion of the integrity of the motives of the Hon. Member for Plymouth. But the abufc of the Naval Commoi(fionera cam e n a t ura lly from the ennilitiients of the Hon. Baronet; for he did n't believe that thofe Commiffioners were ever :L fpsafully foken of at the Docks ! (A largh.) 4ARKHAMAd viral requefted the indulgence ,f the Houfe for a few moments, while he offered • is feutiments on a fubjed in which it was impolfible !..r him not to feel a good deal interefted. He had fficulty then in alluring the Honfe, that looking die pall labours of the Commiflion, looking to what was Rill before them, he law no hope of their being able to finilh their invelligations before the Ode of the fetlion. Hi defired Gentlemen ferioully to confider what the Reports already produced dif doled. But thefc abufes, great as they were, were not more confiderable than other; which Rill remain ed to be invefligated. He believed in his confcience from all the inquiries which he himfelf had Eck it his duty to make, from all that had fallen under the obfervations of his Noble Friend, lately at the head of the Board of Admiralty, that in the . Naval De- pampa% not lets than one-third of the whole amount might be Caved to the nation. This was not an elution made on light grounds. It was founded on documents in his poileffion, and in poffeffion of the Noble Perron to whom he bad re ferred, and which were ready to be produced before the Commiffioners, if they were fuffered to go on with thofe inquiries, which had already produced fuch important refults. There Rill remained many ferious matters fur inveßigation. The Tranfport Board had been alluded to, and he could allure the Houle that this was a fruitful fubjea for inquiry.— The conduit of the Sick and Hurt Board was ano ther fertile fubjea for ioveßigation. As a profef fional man, he was anxious to have this department inquired into. In common with other officers and (earnest, he had fuffered from the grofs and even fcandalons mifmanagement of this Board. Some time ago there had been a Bill before the Houfe for the fairer ditiribution of prize money ; and hc believed that many perfons concerned with the Navy had high expeaations from its operation. Thefe expeCtations had not, however, been in any one inftance verified. On the contrary, the Bill teemed to have fallen into total oblivion. [Here there was a notice acrofs the Table that a new Bill on the fubjea would be fpee dily brought forward.] The Honourable Admiral expreffee his fatisfaaion at this intelligence, and hop ed that it would not be merely nominally paffecl, sut would be experienced in its beneficial effeas. The fait was, that the Bill for authorising the Naval In epiry muff either be continued, or slfe many abufes mull remain undifclofed, many enormities 110C0erte• ed, many inflames of extortion unpunithed. The Right Honourable Gentleman had expelled his conviaion of t h e importaace of the labours of the C.ommitlioners, and he now, for his part, called on him to throw no obßacle in the way of their comple tion. He couldsecollea when the •bufinefs was ori ginally Rarted e that an objeaion was made on the ground that there was no neceffity for the meafure. That objeaion was. however,completely repelled by this confideration, that it would have been the height of abfurdity to have had the Navy Board fifties on a bufinefs in which they themfelves were interefted. At. to the Admiralty, they were occepied by fuch a swim of employmeets, that they could not take the inquiry on themfelves ; hence the neceffity of the Commiffion was ellablifbed. The Right Honoura ble Gentleman not only did not attempt to deny the neceffity of the Commiffion, but fairly owned that much of their work Rill remained to be performed. So far, indeed, front denying that one Commiffion was neceffary, there were two CommiCGons now ac tually in cliflence. Forma ly one Commiffion was attempted to be refilled, but it was now judged that even two might not be unprofitably engaged in the work of inquiry and of reformation. If then the im pnrtance of the Parliamentary Commiffion was not denied, if it was allowed that it had produced very important effeas, he law no reafun why it fhould not be regularly renewed. He had no idea of its being got rid of as it were by a fide wind. He could not relifh the plan of running it down foully and unfairly. It was but common jullice to have it difpofed of on its real merits, and on the cilia: which it had al seady produced, or was calculated to produce. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER publicly Rated what he had formerly hinted acrofs the Table, that a Right Honourable Friend of his (Sir W. Scott) had giveh a public notice of his in tention to bring forward a motion for the more fair and fpeedy OR tibution of prize money. Mr. CREEVEY eepreffed himfelf in terms of the firongeß approbation of the labours of the Commit- Loners for Naval Inquiry. From what they bad al . ready difclofed of frauds on the public, the Houfe and *he country had every reafon to augur moll favour ably of their future exertions. He hoped too, that their reports would not be fuffered to lie tattles on the :able, but would be followed np by correfponding improvement. It was the more neceffary to allude to this, for be had formerly feen Reports of Abufes in the Naval Department which were (offered to fink into complete oblivion. He could remember twenty years ago loch reports, and to this, though improve ments had been luggelled, they had never been re duced to praaice. nor had inquiries, of which there was much promife and Rrong ezpeaation, prodUced one important refult, except the fatisfaaion of know ing that the public had been gmfsly plundered. He was lorry to be under the neceffity of alluding to the Miniflerial Commiffion. which in all probability was only inaituted for minifterial purpofes. There was among thefeCommiffioners one name, the infertion of which in a Commiffion appointed for inquiry into the beg means of reforming abufes in the Natty, was to him altogether unaccountable. This name was the name of Mr. Fordyce, who has for feveral years I' been fuppofed to be indebted to the public in no lets a fum than the funs of eighty thoufand pounds. He knew it was fai l * that this lois was attributable to a misfortune s and did tot at all renal on Mr. Fordyce's charathr. Let this, however, be as it might, he could not help faying that h e t h oug h t i t a moil extra ordinary circumflance, that a person (landing under fuch circumfiances fhoold be on a commiftion, the very objesl of which was to defiroy public abufes.— He could have liked to have the fubjea brought for ward by Come other Gentleman ; but as this was not likely to be the cafe, he certainly could not, confif tently with his duty, refrain from taking an early op portunity of bringing the matter under dircuffion. Mr. FOX was clearly in favour of the original Motion, and could not conceive on what grounds the Motion for the orders of the day could be fopported. It was evident that the Bill, if allowed to be good at all, could not fulfil its °Ned, previous to the expira tion of the Seffion. _There was no force at all in the obfervation of the Right Hon: Gentleman oppofite, that at this period of the SeMon the renewal was an neceffary. The Honfe could have no mean s of know . ing when the Seffion was to terminate. It might ter mutate exaelly when it fuited the whim or the interell of a Minifier. But was the Honfe to be told that an A&, on all hands allowed to be beneficial,was to be re newed jolt at the period when it fuited the Miailler, and not when it was called for by the public interell The idea wasmonfirous, and not to be endured for a moment. If Parliamentary inquiry was to be in ftituted at all, then let it be inftituted in the true fpirit of inquiry, and not dependent on a Miniacr's arrangement. But the RightHon.Gentlentan had en deavoured to argue, that there probably might be no neceffity for renewing the Ad. Now, what Tingle tittle of evidence had been adduced to countenance fuch an opinion? It was contrary to every conjefture, and every probability. It was direaly in nppolition to the declared opinion of two Hon. and Gallant Officers, the bell acquainted with the fubjeft. Thefe Hon. Officers had arprefsly agreed, that it would be quite impoffiblefor the Commiffioners to finith their inquiries within the period which might be expesfled to into vene, previous to the anti of the Sefton. One of the Hon. Officers (Sir C. Pole) had indeed exprelTed fume doubt as to the continuance of the Commiffion dur- ing the exigence of a war ; but he had expreffed no doubt that much yet remained to betneefti- gated, that much yet was to be done before the mafs •f public Aura was laid open to view. He really could not help being anonifhed at the attempt to get rid of the original motion, by moving the Orders of the Day. This was furely evading the quellif.n in a molt unhandfome and indefenf►ble manner. If the Right Hon. Gentleman thought the Comminion un neceffary, or conceived that the Commitlinnets made an undue ufe of their powers, why did he not, like the worthy Baronet oppolite (Sir W. Elford), Rate filch an opinion openly and manfully ? The worthy Baronet had declared himfelf diflatisfied with the Naval Commiffioners, and expreffed his opinion that their inquiries fhould be difcontinued. He had Rated that their Reports ought to be examined into, beeaufe he conceived they afforded ground for grave accufation.—The Hon. Member bad allied now, as he did on a former occafion. On that occafion he had brought forward a dired charge, but by fume misfortune or other, no Member could be found to fecond his prnpofition. Though, however, he was in this rept& unfortunate, it could not be denied that his prneeeffio ire were fair and honourable. If the Right Hors. Gentleman entertained limiter ideas why was it that he did not ptufue a fimilar cowls ? Surely •it would be a courfe at once more honour. able, as well as more parliamentary. To get rid of the motion by moving the Order of the Day, was far from being a fair or candid proceeding, If Gentlemen objeded to the continuance of the Com million, they would afterwards have a full oppor tunity of expreffing their fentiments. They ought at leaft to fuller the Bill to be introduced, and on the fecond reading they might then take the fenfe of the Houle, whether it flosuld be allowed to go to any fuhfequent Rage. They had then only to op. pole it, and to fay diredly and explicitly that the Commiffion fhould be doled. He thought that thofe who originally fupported the At were now bound by every call of confißency to vote for the original motion. If they thought inquiry necelttry, they certainly were bound to fee that this inquiry was fully and advantageoufly purfued. If they had thought that grofs abufes exited, on what principle was it that they refufed their affißance in bringing them to puniffiment? On every view of public in terell he was .decidedly in favour of the original motion, which he trotted the Houfe would not fuller to be got rid of by the unfair and unmanly expe dient pthpofed. Mr. CANNING (poke in favour of the Amend ment; but begged it to be underßood, that in giving this vote he gave no opinion as to the policy of con. tinuing the Commiflion. Whenever this matter came to be canvaffed, he fhould feel himfelf not at all com promifed by the vote he Should give on the prefent occafion. A great deal had been laid as to the in. tention of thole who brought forward the meafure, as to the time of its continuance. One Honourable Officer (Sir C. Pole) had declared his opinion, that' it was not meant to be continued during a period of . war. It was true that another Honourable Officer (Admiral Markham) had expreffed his opinion, that it was meant to be of unlimited duration, as long as there was any fubjea of inquiry not thoroughly in veßigated. Now, be contended, with fuch oppofite and contradidory opinions, in fuch a Rate of ambi guity, the Houfe ought to paufe Wore they came to any certain determination. This was precifely the oltjed which the amendment had in view. It was defigned not to operate as a decifion that the Corn million Should be difcontinued, but as a means of giving the Houfe time to relied to what period it thould be extended, or whether it might not be pof- , fable to derive all the information required, without any renewal of the Bill. Even allowing that Par liament, in the &ft inffance, intended that the Bill ()mold be extended to a period beyond what it would reach to without a new Bill, the Houk now were not to be bound by fuch a determine tion. They were to be guided by didates of po. licy and expediency. One Honourable Officer was of opinion that we ought by all means to preferve the commiffion in exitience. Another Honourable Officer, equally well qualified follicle on the fubjed, thought, that during war, the operations of the corn miffion.would be attended with many difficulties and embarraffinents. When this was the cafe, what was there more natural than to adopt the Atnendment, which did not at all injure the commiffion at precept, an& prefeated the eonfiquencet of i too .precipitate decifion. There bad been a good deal advanced re fpelting the propriety of bringing forward charges againit the Naval Commiffinners if they were fuppoied guilty of any ail opprelfion. But be faw no ma rtin for the ufe of fuck language. It would be ra ther too hard, that, after almolt abfolute and unpre• cedented powers were bellowed, Members [held not be allowed to comment on the mode on which they were ufed without being called on to bring a crimi nal charge. He did not think it fair when abufes were pointed out, a• an Honourable Baronet had in a particular cafe endeavoured to efiablifb, to have fuch observations treated in a taunting manner, as had been done by the tan fpeaker. On the whole lee fup ported the Amendment, as leaving the whole matter open fitr future difcdfion. • Mr. FOX denied that he bad need any taunting language. If, in what be (aid, there was appear since of taunt, it was not applied to the Worthy Ba _ . ronet, ahem,on the contrary. be praifed for his fair and open dealing. If there was any thing of taunt, it applied io thole who could hear arguments and ap prove them fecretly. without having the courage openly to fupport them. Sir C. POLE ('aid, that it was originally intended the Bill fliould end with the prefent Seffion, but he knew that there were Rill many departments remain- ing to be enquired into. Mr. BATHURST rofe, not for the purpofe of complyingwith the demand of any t . ientleman whom he would not admit to have the right of perfonally requiring of him an explanation as to any change in his fentiments refpeeting the continuance of the Comm . (llion, but to (tate his reafons for oppofing the motion. After the candid manner in which the mo. Lion was met, he bad been in Come expeCtation that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman would not hive perfilted in his motion. It was not now necetfary to difctifs, whether the Commiffion should 'aft one or two years. Undoubtedly the intention of Parliament was, that fuch a consnsiffion fhould exia, and it was therefore proper, that a reafonable time should be allowed to it for tranfaeting the bufinefs with which it was entruffed, confi Rent with fair expedition. With refpea to that part of the Learned Gentleman's at. garment which tended to maintain the neceffity of re newing the Bill, hecaufe it was within poffibility that the prerogative may be exerted to defiroy the ex& ence of the commiffion, he thought it the moft travagant he had ever heard. It was not proper for Parliament to argue and decide upon fuch outrage ous prefumption. It was not credible, that any Mi oilier would be foond to advife the exertion of the prerogative for fuch a paltry purpofe as that of get ting rid of the prefent Bill. There was no imme diate neceflity apparent to him for taking the fubjea into confideration, and be would therefore vote for the previous question, merely upon the declaration of the Right Hon. Gentleman under him. Lord HENRY PETTY did not fee the neceffity that in cafes where great powers are confided by Par liament, the perfons tovefied with thofe powers Gould be teat-idled in point of time. The propofal of his Learned Friend went no further than to give the Bill the extent which it was now demonßrated to the fa lisfattion.of the Houfe it was originally intended it Ihould have. - He thought that Parliament having once adopted the meafure, was, in con fi flency, bound to continue it. There was little apprehenfion that the ideas thrown out by force perfons, refpefling the dan. ger which might refult from the existence of fuch a commiffion, without any thing to operate upon, Ihould ever be realized. The 'abufes which it was the objett of it to dila:over and corral were numerous and notorious, and, he hoped, that the advocates for palling bong meafures, upon the foie grounds of notoriety, would not deem themfelves jußifisble in oppofing a meafure founded on their own principles, and from the continuance of which it was univerfaUy allowed the public had derived the molt extenfiva and important advantages. Mr. I. H. BROWNE profefied to feel as much confidence as any man in the promife of his Right Honourable Friend (the Chancellor of the Exche quer) on this occafion, but, confillently with thefup port which he originally felt it his duty to give to this Bill, the convelion he bad of its importance, and the needfity which appeared for its farther continu ance, he could not perfuade himfelf to vote againft the motion of die Learned Gentleman on the other fide. Mr. TIERNEY was .furprifcd, from the trifling, if any, difference of opinion which tallied between both fides of the Houfe upon the merits of this Bill, that there fhnuld be any objedion to a motion for its further continuance. It was allowed on all hands that the Commiffioners a&ing under this Bill had, throughout the whole of their conduit, with the ex ception of one angle inflance only, deferred the higheß praife. Why then fhould the Houfe hefitate to inreft fuchaommiffioners with the power ne ceffary to enable them to difcharge their duty with full effete ? In order to this, he thought the exiftence of their power fbould be liable, and not dependant on the duration of a Seffion.—As to the danger ap prehended from filch a Commiffion, during the exitt ence of a war, he thought that the experience we had already had, was fufficient to remove that apprehen fion. The commiffion had originated in time of peace, but yet we had been at war during the greater part of itscontinuance, and yet no inconvenience whatever ap peal ed to have refulted from it; quite the contrary, and if was his opinion, and that of many gallant and intel hgent officers, that if it were interrupted in its pro grefs before its inveftigations fhould be completed, ves y great mifchiefs would arife. An Hon. Baronet had Stated, that if the objed of the cnmmiffion appear ed to be unattainable before the expiration of the SeC application would, and ought to be then made for the continuance of this bill. But he would put it to the candid confideration of the Houfe, whether, thinking as they and the public did, of the exertions of thefe Commiflioners, it would be decorous to limit them in point of time, or wait for their application to continue the Aft ?Whether it would not be more be ' coming to be beforehand with them, and to rene* the bill at once ? His opinion was decidedly in fa vour of the latter coin fe, and he law no good, though he could well fuppofe much evil, that might fol low from the poftponement propored by the Motion of the Right Honourable Gentleman, (the Chancellor of the Exchequer). To the affurance of that Right Honourable Gentleman, that he would bring forward a props:A . okm for the continue:tee of the ad under coofidcratiou in Iba purls of the 36, flans, ffionid neceity appear to call for it, he was ready to give credit. But it might happen that the Right Honourable Gentleman, however well dif poled, would be unable to cart y the propofition into effta. Many changes might occur in the courfe of a feffions ; he did not mean to fpeak as to ordinary events ; but even in the fitu:ttion of the Right Ho nourable Gentleman a change might occur. Per haps the Right Honourable Gentleman did not feel at all the uncertainty of a fitnation in power, though, he could affure him, that he felt that uncer tainty (a laugh) ; and therefore it was that he could not en tirely rely on the Right Honourable Gentleman's promife, or, rather, that he could not rely on his ca pacity to fulfil it. He would not silk this important Bill upon a contingency, and if the fituation of the - Right Honourable Gentleman fhould be changed, his willies and eloquence might not poflibly have foal cient influence to carry the renewal of this Bill. For this reafon it was, that he defired to refs the motion for its renewal at prefent ; and afro, becaufe he thought fuch immediate renewal necetl'ary to give vigour and efficacy to the operation of the Commiffion. No man could fuppofe that that Commiffion could,proceed with (itch effea, if they were to calculate upon the ex piration of their power within three or four months. as if that power were enlarged in the manner propofcd by the motion. It was impoffible indeed, that they could accomplith the ob , jeta of their inquiry within the Set fions. They had, oe underftood, much information to look for from diftant countries, particularly in their inquiry into the Viilualling Department. How then could it be reckoned upon that fuch inquiry Eoold be completed within a fliort time ; particularly as-it was Rated by his Noble Friend, that their bufinefs viksjaft ; accumulating ? With refpea to the allufions made. o the views of thofe by whom the motion was propo : thofe views he did not know ; but he knew the view A s which induced him originally to fupport this Bill.— That view was, becaufe he thought it proper and neceffary to invelligate the abufes that were gene rally fuppofed to extft in the expence of the different departments of the Navy. Of this neceffity he wee now fully convinced. The vaft mall of evidence on the Table furniffied by the Reports of thofe Commit:Gon ers, was the belt teltimony of their merit, and the ftrongeft argument in favour of the Motion before the Houfe. Thofe Reports contained fuch matter as was highly deferving the attention of the Houle, and fuck as he trolled would, by becoming the fub jea of Carious confideration, prove that Parliament was as anxious to intereft itfelf in the concerns of public (economy as in any other fubje&. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER in explanation Rated. That fome CI entlemen'feemed much to ntifunderftand his obfervatious with refpea to the Reports from the Commiflion, to which the Motion before the Houfe referred. He had laid, that there were many important fuggetlions in thole Reports ; but he would not be underflood at all to pledge himfelf, to take any particular proceeding in confequence of thofe fuggeftions. This was a con fideration upon which he held himfelf free to make up his mind. The divifion being called for, ftrangers were ex cluded, and the numbers were. For the original mo tion 75.—For the Amendment sp.—Majority for the Minilter 57. While we were abfent from the gallery, the renew. al of the difcutlion refpatiog the ICeport of the Com mittee on the conduit of Meas. Rawlins and Coe. at the Middlefex eleaion of tifoa, was poftponed till this day fe'nnight. Previous to the poftponement, fome converfation took place between Mr. Sheridan and the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Upon Mr, Sheridan's moving for the po..oponement, the Chan cellor of the Exchequer exprelfed a with that a dar might be fixed upon when the decifion of this buff, nefs &mild certainly take place, and that no farther poftponement ffiould be looked fur. __ • On our re•admition into the gallery, the Clerk was reading the refolutions of the Expiring Lam s Committee, which were agreed to, and Bilk ordered accordingly. The lilt of perfons to be appointed under the A 4, relating to the India judicature was brought up, read, and agreed to. Mr. H. THORNTON prefented a petition from the Direetors of the Sierra Leone Company, praying aid. Ordeted to lie on the Table.—Adjourned till Monday. KNARESBOROUGH ELECTION COMMITTEE, PE8.211. The Committee met this day, to confider of the petition of certain Burgage Holders of the Town and Borough of Knarefborough, in the County of Yerk, Lord Wm. RV iss Li. Chairman. The Peddon [tined, that the Clerk of the Chown had. tome time in July kit, 'Sued a writ &rated to the Bailiffs of Knarefe borough. commanding them to elect a Burgers to terve in Parlia ment in the room of Lord George Cavendith who had accepted the Chiltern Hundreds; that on the day appointed for *e elation, the town hall, where the elettloa was to have been, was forcibly (deed and taken poffellion of by a mob, cornpoled of leveret hun. deed perfons, who occupied the Itaircafe and avenues, and pee. I vented all accds to it ; that the Magiftrates and Confta bles, in at tempting to enforce the public peace, were 'nutted and beaten ; that various ads of outrage were committed. and that the Magtf trates and Bailiffs, awed and intimidated by the violence of the mob, were unable to proceed to the elation, and had therefore been under the neceffity of making a (pedal return to the Houfe of Commons, flaring all the fads and cireumftances of the riot--o The Petitioners concluded by praying that relief which was adapted to their complaint. Mr. ?Louse, in a very energetic fpeech, Gated the cafe on the part of the Petitioners. He de. , lored the event he had to detail as one which was in the high. eft degree difgraceful to the country. It was a con fiderable aggravation of the shameful riot which formed the fobjed of the petition, that it had been infligated by perfons, who, from their fituations in life, ought to have known better, or rather to have 'tied their exertions in preventing it. Upon the writ being received by the bailiffs, they applied to Sir John Ingleby, an alive magillrate, of great weight and authority in the county, for the purport of ob taining his aid and co-operation in preferving order at the eleflion. That Gentleman adopted every pre. caution he deemed necelfary. He appointed upwards of tw:nty fpecial conftsbles to aMft the ordinary ci vil power. On the morning appointed for the elec tion, they proceeded to the Town Hall. At this time no candidatt bad profeffed an intention of nand ing, and confequently what followed mutt have been the refult of a determination to deftroy the dn of eledtion altogether. When they reached the J.'owa Hell they found it occupied and furrotlnded by a formidable mob, headed and eisconregrd by a Mr. Ma p sa ittunter. shod Mr. PPM', LUMP. • 1 • is