Star. — London, England, 1818-04-14 00:00:00

l • . of Brunswick, but he also looked to the in ' and the happinak of the People. He cos . what the finances of the country would allow paid in taxation—{hear, hear.)—And who, after it the late discussions on the Leather Tax, dare to say that the present period *as not a Infortunate one to apply for fresh provisions? CUItWEN trusted that the House would not called upon to vote one single shilling, till after Chancellor of the Exchequer had laid before it a detailed statement of the Supplies, and Ways and of the year. BRAND could see no reason why the Noble _ should not mention the amount of the grants proposed. ' CASTLEREAGH thought that it would be , as well as unsatisfactory to the House, to the sums proposed, without being able to enter ' the requisite details and explanations. _ LASCELLES said that he was one of those had attended the Meeting alluded to during the part of the discussion. He thought he should ake too much upon himself if he stated that had transpired there had not met with the sa tisfaction of several others besides himself—(Load cheering from the Opposition.)—}le would not say at present, but - he would repeat, that in what ' mentioned, he had not stated his own feel- 'alone. LYTTLETON wished to know whether the propositions to be submitted to the House included ire individuals than were anenticiaeci in the Mes- sage? —(Hear, hear.) • Lord C ASTLEREAGII declined giving an aisles. - BENNET asked whether his Majesty's Minis- Al not communicated to their Select Committee they intended to pfopose 19,000/. in addition •to one of the Royal Dukes, besides 19,0001. , and 12,0001. a-year to each of the others? After a few observations from Sir C. MoNciE and CALCUAFT, no answer having been returned, the was agreed to. Lord CASTLEREAGH then moved an Address Prince Regent, thanking his Royal Highness most gracious Message respecting .the inten- Carriages of his Royal Highness the Duke of tce with the Princess of Saxe Meiningen, and )yal Highness the Duke of Cambridge with the Ince% of Hesse: expressing the entire satisfaction House at the prospect of alliances with Pro- Princesses of such illustrious Houses, and as his Royal Highness of its attachment and 4 iness to make the provisions required, with a due :gard to the importance of any measure which tend to secure the Succession to the Crown in ,ajesty's Illustrious House. .4 STANLEY wished to know, whether there any instance in which the votes of the House had extended to individuals who had not been men . in the Royal Message ? Lord CASTLEREAGH said, that the Address t he had proposed merely expressed the satisfacs of the House at the communication which it had , ved, without pledging it to countenance any t which might be brought forward subsequentlt. nild remain open to the House to vote them oe as it would think proper. BROUGHAM did not yield to the Noble in' affection towards the House on the Throne. he would no: on that account neglect histduty el people. The Address plelged the House .to provisions with a due regard to the importsMte ich measures as might tend to secure the Swats to the Throne, but without a word respecting regard due to the state of the people. He there should propose to introduce the following words the Address :—" And with a due regard to the resent butthened state of the people of this country." Lord CASTLEREAGH did not think the amend necessary. It would seem to imply that there an indisposition on the part of the Crown to at to the wants and burthens of the people. GILBERT HEATHCOTE briefly supported Amendment. Ir. TIERNEY contended that the Amendment aid not pledge any Member to any particular line conduct in the discussion of to-morrow. The souse knew that a meeting of Members had been ;ailed by Ministers; that to this meeting they had stated what they intended to propose to-morrow; - the House also knew, from the best authority, these propositions had been considered by seve as unfit to be entertained. Under such suspicious tmstances should not the House take at least one lard against committing itself too far? The Gallery was then cleared for a division, but ng before a division actually took place, an interest. ,g discussion followed, of which the following, we -alerstand, is the substance :J The Honourable Mr. SOMERS COCKS expressed extreme anxiety to explain the reason why he did vote for the Honourable Member (Mr. Brougham's) iendment. Viewing it as pledging the Haase to principle of economy, he did not object to it on ,t ground. On the contrary, when the proposed Lowance came to be discussed, he should shew by. vote that he was as warm a friend to tbnprineiple any man ; but he was averse to departing from the ;ual mode of proceeding in such Addresses, which ight be liable to misconstruction. Mr. BROUGHAM said he was desirous of re moving the false impression under which the Ho nourable Gentleman appeared to labour : when he thought that it signified nothing to the successful op position of the proposed measure, whether the vote was given in this or in a future stage. He (Mr. Brougham) pressed his Amendment for the very pur pose of deterring Ministers, M the earliest possible stage, from going on with such a measure; and he , was ccmficifin that the Amendment, if carried, would .ave the most salutary consequences, as well to the interests of the country, as to the stability of the Government, by putting an end at once to a propo sition fraught with the very worst consequences to both. Mr. LEE KECK could not avoid declaring the Jurse which he felt himself bound to adopt. Dik approving highly of the proposition made at the Meeting at Lord Liverpool's, he should decidedly oppose it; and, though he wished the Amendment had not been moved, still he felt he had no choice; but must give it also' his support in the terms in which it was couched. Mr. PLUNKETV wished that his Hon. Friend pondconsent to vrithdraw the Amendment. He en tirelircoaturred in opinion with him, and when the .• 01•.............• House of terests' at sidered as to be pail heating I would da very unfi • Mr. Cl be called the Chan detailed Means 6 • Mr. B • Lord she proposed I ' • Lord ( unfair, a state the into all t - Lord 1 who had early pat ). not take I . what hat tisfaction 1 cheering, more at , . he had n ingi'alor 11' - Mr. L propositi I more hi( sage ?--! Lord( I. Mr. B ters had f I that the a-year tc outfit, a After 1 ' ! Mr. CAL motion I Lord I , to the Pi for hii n ded .Mat Clarencc ; his .Roy: Princess of the testant l i k sating readines regard might t his 111aji Lord I was any been esi i tioned i Lord which II .1 . I . tion of i f receive, grant m p: It woul not, as Mr. • . , iodic Bat he I to the 1 ) make F of suet si.)ll to tl:e reg fore sh into tin present Loll. i 1 ment n was an tend to Sit ( the An !.. Mr. would of con House called I• stated i J and th that th ral as i • circurr I guard un • long hi ing di. I % under! '• The his est i' not vo Amen I i the pr that 1 allow: his vo i' as an) usual might 1r movit noura thot4 posit' was 1 1 Brou pose stage was , have 1 1 i • ; i inter 1 lc 1 , . Govt shim l'll coat • •. aPP I Mee i o , had but whit 1 Iti VCR i Lire] 1 i ir ' \ • .. ".: Si, 1. • 4 ." . question was brought forward, he should strenuously support Lim io the utmost of his power. But he was apprehensive that it might wear an appearance very foreign to his Honourable Friend's intentions, if the House departed from the precedents of former Ad dresses, by referring to the topic of economy, not to be found in the Messige, and thereby seeming to in sinuate that the Crown had improperly omitted that important consideration. On the merits of the ques-, tion he heartil a d with his Hon. Friend. Sir J. NE RT expressed his regret at being obliged to differ so widely from his Right Honour ' able Friend (Mr. Plunkett) in his view of the Amend ment, which he regarded as absolutely necessary, after what had passed on both sides. It was a great mistake in his Right Hon. Friend to suppose, that the Amendment could refer to any thing but the conduct of Ministers. The Message was their act, and if the omission was censured by the Amendment, the censure fell upon the constitutional advisers of the Crown alone. Lord LASCELLES was one of those present at the Meeting at Lord Liverpool's, and he there felt that he could not agree to the proposition of Minis ters. He was prepared to oppose it by his vote when it came forward ; • but he declined 'supporting the Amendment, Or voting in the present stage. Sir C. MONCK strongly supported the Amend ment, as did Mr. CALCRAFI' and Mr. TIERNEY, upon the ground of Lbrd Castlereagh's refusal to in form the House what was intended, and the fact which had come out of so many Members that morn ing having karat what the measure was, and immeb. &Lately declared that they could not agree to it, Mr. LITTLETON (Staffordshire) said, he should not easily be suspected of opposing Government, with whom he so generally acted. Ent he had been one of the Meeting at Lord Liverpool's, and had found a great many others, like himself, friends to the measures of Administration, but who could not agree to the proposition made by Lord Liverpool.— However he should reserve himself for the after stage of the question. Mr. ASERCROMBY considered that they who opposed the Amendment quite mistook the question. The duty of the House was to act as an interme diate body between the People and the Crown, at tending to the interests of both. His Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Plunkett) could not surely so far forget its functions, and indeed its whole forms of pro• ceeding, as to regard any thing which it did relative to a Message or Address, as applicable to the execu tive branch of the Government, or to any persons other than the Ministers of the Crown. After the avowals of °pillion on all sides respecting the ex pected proposition, it would be a deception not to add the declaration contained in the Amendment. Mr. C. W. VYNN wished the Amendment to be' withdrawn, for fear of impeding the future opposi tion to the proposed vote—in which opposition he would certainly concur—but the Amendment, he, thought, contrary to the usual forms of proceedings. Mr. W. COURTENAY deemed it necesssary to declare at once, in the earliest stage, his opposition Ito the measure. He should vote for he Amendment with this view—he approved of it because it went to declare the opinion of the House, and to prevent the measure, deprecated on almost all hands, front being proposed. It had his unqualified assent. Sir T. ACLAND vtas against the Amendment, though he strongly supported the principle of it, and should shew this by his vote when the measure was • proposed. Mr. GOOCH had been at Lord Liverpool's, and disapproved of the proposition. Mr. m1;11113EN warmly supported the Amend ment ; as did also General WALPOLE, who asked, whether if such an expression of regard to the bur diens of the country had been in the original Address, Gentlemen would have voted for leaving them oat ? Sir W. CURTIS said he had not been at Lord Li verpool's, though he had on former occasions of a similar kind, and had expressed his mind freely. If he had been there, he should to-day have opposed the proposition decidedly, and so he should when it came on—but he would not vote now for the Amendment. Sir S. ROMILLY begged the House before voting, to recollect that the whole of the Members to whom the private and unconstitutional disclosure had been made in the morning, and who alone knew its nature, had, from all that now appeared, disapproved of it ; and had one after another informed the House of its being of a kind impossible to be supported by them who usually voted with Ministers. Was it too much in these circumstances to record the warning of the' House to Ministers in the Address, and to let it he known that there existed here such an opiniod ? The original Address would only tend to mislead any one who read it as to the sentiments of the House, and the reception which the proposition was, likely to meet with.—The House then divided, when there ap peared—For the Amendment 93—Against it 144.- 1 lajority for the original Address 51. Mr. P. METHUEN moved for a Return of the Incomes of the Dukes of Clarence, Kent, Cumber land, Sussex, and Cambridge, from military, or civil appointments ; also of all pensions or other. allowances, as well as grants horn the droits of ad-'t miralty since 1800. Mr. TIERNEY proposed that their incomes from any foreign States should be included. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER 'was understood to say in reply, that it was impossible to make such a Return, as the means of making it were beyond the province of Ministers. Mr. J. P. GRANT said, that at least the person ages who received those incomes had the power to make the return. Mr. BROUGHAM thought that the House ought at least to be informed of the emoluments of the Duke of Cambridge in Hanover, and he could name one person who could make a return to' that effect : it was the person who was making the application to the House for more money—(hear, hear.) Their grant must be influenced by the amount of the pre ' sent income ; because they would grant only what was necessary for supporting the splendour belong ing to the situation of the Royal Dukes. What was necessary for that purpose they were bound to give ; but if any other means existed for contributing to that object, it was surely indispensable to know the amount of those means, in order to enter upon the question, how much ought to be granted in addition?' (Hear, hear.) Hanover had formerly bt.ert a bur den, and the source of incalculable expcas.: to this country; it-would be some compensation if she were now found to alleviate our charges--(Hear, hear.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ob served, that on former occasions of a similar nature, Mr. Pitt and Mr. Fox had made no inquiry into the foreign receipts of any of the Royal Family. Mr. BROUGHAM replied, that if Mr. Fox had lived to see the country so burdened as at present, his conduct in that respect would have been different. Mr. PROTHEROE proposed that the question should be postponed till to-morrow evening. He conceives) this to be a: question of very great impor tance, and therefore thought that there should be a call of the House for Friday, the 24th instant, in or der to Insure the attention of Members to every stage of the inquiry. If the question were fairly and at once put to the House, he was certain that it would meet with a decided negative : but as attempts might be made to accommodate and compromise matters, he thought it important to have a full attendance of Members. He felt it, therefore, necessary to move for a call of the House on Friday, the 24th. A call of the House for that day was ordered ac cordingly. ISSUE OF GOLD AND SILVER COINAGE. Mr. J. P. GRANT moved for an Account of the Gold Coinage during the year 1817, distinguishing the number of sovereigns and half-sovereigns ; also of the Silver Coinage during the same period, disc ruishing the number of crowns, half-crowns, sh lings, and sixpences. He moved at the same time for the total number of the gold and silver coined, which was given to the Bank of England, and of \he number otherwise disposed of. A third object of his motioa was the market price of standard gold in bars, and the course of exchange of Hamburgh, Lisbon, and Paris during the same period. —Ordered. CHARGES ON THE CONSOLIDATED FUND. Mr. TIERNEY made some observations respecting the Consolidated Funds of this country and Ireland, and said, he should move for an Account of the Ex traordinary Charges upon the Consolidated Fund, from the sth of April to the sth of July, 1818. He could shew by these accounts, that instead of a sur plus of revenue, there was a deficiency of three mil lions and a hal f ? on the sth of January. He conclu ded by moving for an account of the extraordinary charges on the Consolidated Fund from the sth of April to the sth of July, 1818, and of the Exche quer Bills issued to meet those charges. The CHANCELLOR of the EXC HEQUER said, it would be more correct to move for the sum raised by Exchequer Bills to make good the charges upon the Consolidated Fund. The Right Honourable Gen tleman had said, that in the months of November and December, 1816, the whole number of Bills for three months had been issued, and therefore that a! month had been provided for beyond the sth of Ja nuary, 1817 ; and that the redemption of debt o the sth of January last, had referred only to a pe riod of eleven months. But the redemption was for twelve months, and consequently there could be no' grourd for such an inference. Mr. TIERNEY said, the Right Hon. Gentleman had himself stated it to be for thirteen months, he now called it only twelve months ; he therefore ad mitted that there was a mistake of one month. By the accounts snored for he should shew, that instead ~of having got three millions out of debt, we had *gone three millions and a half the other way, and had at raet gone half a million into debt. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that his representation remained still unimpeached. [ Mr. TIERNEY reminded the Right Hon. Gentle 'man that he had said nothing of the Consolidated Fund of Ireland. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was .not prefared to enter upon that subject, and that he wished it to be postponed. Mr. IIERNEY agreed to postpone his motion. Mr. GRENFELL, in consequence, put of his mo tion connected with the same subject. BANK NOTE FORGERIES. Sir SAMES MACKINTOSH said, there was an unaccour.table delay in making a return of the pro secutions for forgeries on the Bank of England in terms of his motion of the 214.11 of February last. There was another motion for the number of Mint pro- . secutions. If the return was not printed, he took that opportunity of moving that it be rinted.—Ordered. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ex pressed his surprise that no return should have been made. Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH said that no return had been made, so far as he could learn. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER pro- mised to make inquiry. Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH said, there was a third motion, which the Righ t Hon. Gentleman had promised to assist him in aming ;he begged the favour of him to inquire into that also. Mr. MANNING inquired at what time the motions were made, and what was their object? Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH answered, that the motion to which no return was made had been agreed to on the 24th of February. It called for a Return of the Prosecutions for Forgeries for 14 years, pre- Feeding and following the restriction in 1791;' and for ?he time since the termination of the latter period. • Mr. W. SMITH said, this was a subject that called for the attention of the House. It often happened that five out of six who ought to make returns, made their returns at once; but that they could not be laid before the House, as the sixth made no return. Mr. BENNET said, that there was much blame attached to the mode of presenting returns. It had cost him three good days of hard labour to sum up the returns of persons sent to Botany-Bay. ARTILLERY TROOPS. Mr. BENNET now begged to say to the Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. R. Ward) that the more he inquired, the more certain he was that there never existed a case of greater hardship than that of Ar tillery Officers. The Right Honourable Gentleman had stated, that eight troops had been discharged, and four retained. The fact was this :—Of the 12 troops, six were discharged in 1814, and the other six were retained till 1818. Out of the six troops, four now remained. The Right Honourable Gentle man had said, that of two battalions in Ireland, one had been discharged before the Union, and one bat talion had the option of half-pay, or of entering into the British service. He now asked only for the same option, and if his statement was correct, instead of 500,0001.50,0001. would be the whole expense. He should make no motion on the subject, but he should take a future opportunity of proposi ng a gate to th amount required He asked for full pay onJ fw tw t tr rr P Lord COCHRANE could not theadmitajon u jasticee the claim now advanced, and was of opi proper course had been pursued by Ministers, 4 „ t A .. 411 the present circumstances of the country. y , of the petitioner, however, was peculi ar; ::,, Cale t . conduct in saving a whole brigade o f si r " army certainly entitled him to rewa r d. I t u „ °nre i ,:2 a cruel case if he should be denied th at ad „„-"` viz. of receiving full pay, which w as co ' so many officers who had never rendered any at all. He regretted much to witness the that was generally shewn to the rights o f in 5 1i , 41,7 and thought it as much the duty of the Ilnu st tend to claims of this nature as to the dig n i t y t° splendour of the Royal Family. Lord CARHAMPTON could not help ' tr i • that he was in a strange place, or that I L, 1 „„,. °1 very strange was going on about him. H e „:,7 y the one hand, some Honourable Members des ts '-; their places near himself, and instead of vi-e ec i l°, resisting demands founded on usurpatio n , absa n e% ransacking the Estimates, in order to find pretea tn for additional expenditure. He was perfectly ae a . nished, on the other hand, at the ea:crimes am contained in those various papers which t.l.e Henna. able Member opposite, on a former night, h a d s 6, witted to their „consideration. The sum of Qat repairing the harbour of Portsmouth, mi g h t , 44 opinion, be safely reduced to 4001. Tat expense of this department had increased, was iacreasiag, aid ought to be diminished. He firmly belierea, f ax England a reduction of one half might beef - et:ea and its Ireland of two-thirds. lie had himseif the appointments of Adjutant-General, and of Can. 'mander-in-Chief, in that country. At that timeline were three Engineers employed, and he then those* there was one too many ; but Ireland had sow me less than thirteen—(hear, hear). He would mien opportunity of hereafter shewing, of his own k ledge, that this was the only place for Luigi: gm Reduction—(hear, hear). Mr. ROBERT WARD would rot now ezterara a discussion which would be much more 5• 4 4 • rily entertained when the measure should came is the shape of a regular Bill before the licnse. lk could not now positively state whether the amorist of the arrear would be 50,000/. or 20,000/. bat would pledge himself to make good all his mbar statements. The Noble Lord who spoke last hal certainly availed himself of a fair opportu:ity making his observations; but he must say, in ma.; that the subject had been so amply discussed, ,• only in that House, but by Committees above stiii that he felt it unnecessary to offer any reply. 11 Noble Lord would suggest to him any racticahle retrenchment, he should most willingly accept suggestion. With regard to the vote of 40001 the repair of the damage don: by the late toms 'Portsmouth, he admitted, that, in point of legal. rite, notice ought to..have been given of this age tiopal item in the Estimates. The Report, hOlteret, on which the application to Parliament was fourisd, represented the immediate necessity of the repair, 'and it was upon ,this consideration that the cc. had heen dispensed with. If the House, home, should he of opinion that this font of proceeding wasoecessary, he was willing to withdraw :he Roo* lution for the present Aftia a few words from Mr. BENNET, the no lutions were agreed to, and read a se:cad time. SANK OF ENGLAND NOTES. Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH rose, in consetpu of the priority given to the unforunate nctice stick stood for to-morrow (this day) relative to the ccet ration of the Royal message, to postpone bis moms for returns of the number of prosecutions and • victions of the crime of forging the notes of Bank of England, since the first act of restrictica the year 1797, till Friday next POLICE OFFICERS. On the Order of the Day for the second reading, the Offenders Conviction Reward Bill being real, The ATTORNEY-GENERAL stated his dem' mination to oppose the further progress of the' lie was of opinion that some stimulus shad given for the apprehension of criminals, whiduadd only be done - by holding out rewards to than. excitement to men placing themselves in ante apprehending offenders, would be done assay it Honourable Gentleman's Bill were to pass. He se rather wish to see a discretionary power lodged the Judge, to give or to withhold the rewards cases where they are given by Acts of Parliament, Upon this principle he opposed the second muting(' the Bill, wishing that a Bill should be brought abolish the certainty of rewards. Mr. WM. SMITH expressed his hopes that Bill should be read a second time ; while in the mittee it could be accommodated to the L am' the Learned Gentleman, the Attorney -Generat. opposition of the Learned Attorney-General , ceded to, would seem to cast a slur on the print of the measure of his Honourable Friend, and prudence in introducing it. And surely if ever man was entitled to approbation for his exer6.ea that subject, it was his Honourable Friend (!h. net)--(hear). The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said he had • wish to press the opposition to the second teatimes' with the understanding, that his object could t , tained in the Committee by amendment. Mr. BENNET confessed he felt himself rather an awkward situation, in having to oppose himself a question so connecte d: with the jurispruderxe s country, with a Gentleman of the acknowleird ih fessional character of the Learned AttorneY But he still could not admit that his views outbec nuance of those rewards, on conviction of off ' at all weakened by what had been advancedthat , - -It could not be said that he had adopted thera slight grounds. Every Gentleman of a very men Committee Committee had concurred in the conviction necessity of abolishing them. Such was ah opinion of the Police Magistrates, and even Police Officers who had been examined before And what reason did the latter give for that tion ? They said, that they felt the necessit the manner in which Officers were treated by in consequence of these rewards, that they came Court with mill-stones round their necks, and I while these rewards were continued they were posed to the odious appellation of Blood Money appellation, he Mat Say; 90 odious, aud tie lote to t i e . . • '7 only fc , . ted he j ust i ce if • .tr, of . Lio n th at ore n viers, Lade • The ceet e • and hi e • Y r J. sesii r d7: u the adi sze _ :0j e ,,, d 7 4 • lie any he di tta the fie Hu th poi , e p • nod I dig n i ty azi ` 1 br lg i n :_ se su „o • scat He sae, Ter ,UrS . deitz-dtg d F 't- r irte ; l T 4 • ab, O l A 6 t ad ptetesce ' s ! rf " t4 auo. .ris,e ts seas thi the How,. had sub • • stun aPF nigh; i sais to e P ellt e " the masa ire ieved_2 taat i it be d eo * e g p : himself bcd an d of cem. rri tike la time th ee me then t h es e ; ici had aow ss stet would mie as the is ov a how it ssi on cter Ara le ore s rich er , mad rim i s ic; e Hcuse. He he T the sexese it WOOL b e t h e •• es all his secs th Poke lass hail tho PPortarity i ce no la] , in anus, ve; discussed, ant e 3 above •sui; reply. if s i x ,ny pi- se ts cas si e gly accept tie • of last a late scams to d int of se o. n 2 01 this al. port, bourn, hl t was ( m i s t ec of the re pe l . bat the mike • e( Rue , homer s of p roc eejing Iran* :he Revs • le • m ;ET, the rasa cad arm ' ,s. • d in consequence ; e to =tire which to the =side. ione his make itions and co e notes of *t of restriction 's road reading ci 1 being teed. /red his deter. 1 reu of the alns should be as, which meld !s to diem All s in danger, br me assay if the pass, He soil ower lodged I the rewards of PariLIMCOL • !cella mailing of re brought into • • hopes that 6 e hile in the Coat- o the °Nets et r.GeneraL The -General, if on the principle lend, and oat surely if ever a his exerig, cis • Friend Oh. Besi• • said he had so second reading, ject could be alr lent. himself rather fiat Trose himself eu isp7usitrxe or 'kuovvlnigeti pro- kg:tor:lo.4omi• riews co the coati- ofoffendersisete vancedthat n ight. • adopted theta on • a very numerous conviction of the ch was also the and even of t e fined before them. e for that comic- be necessity from treated by Juries at they came into necks, and thg NI they were es- Hood Money. An and at tic runic