Star. — London, England, 1815-03-01 00:00:00

ie taciations which they ha ti evetiteason to hope", to believe would shortly take placet He admitted he cone of the Militia having been called nut, bur I , e maintained that circumstances had jastitied its be. 411 . 1 kept up. The principle on which Ministers, had .cted in this measure had been recognized by.Parlia; . . oe nt in the distinction made between the old Militia aul the Local Militia, in determining with respect to ,h e litter after what period it shonld - be . disembodieti. hl e Regular Militia had always been intended to be ,m to the discretion of Ministers, on their responsibi •dt. sahject to the controul of Parliament. Ho de. that this force so kept up with the consent of 'arliameot was at all to be compared to a standing .onv, and repelled the assertions made by the Hon. Learned Gentleman as to the injury which the Ailitia itself must sustain from the course pursued gy Ministers on this occasion. As to the evils coal. ; Lined of with respect to the personal feelings of the : n jivtditals in the Militia, who wire kept iiom their ~naves, compulsorily made w serve, and subjected to de lash (to use the words of an Hon. Baronet).., ir S. ROMILLY said he had not used such words. Mr. BATHURST bad uttered them as the words If an Honourable Baronet.—This was the picture Jrawn of persons subjected to military discipline. In ti,e Militia, however, it would be found that not mor e • :tan one in ten served for himself ; the rest were sub. .titates, serving from choice. He did not mean to .indervalue the sacrifices made by these persons, but asserted them to be necessary for the general good of the country. They might think their case hard when hey saw other corps disembodied, but this was but a Anparative, and not an absolute hardship. They night think it unlucky that their regiments were not itnong those who were disbanded; but while a partial !isembodying of the Militia ivas not unlawful, 'this -ould not be prevented. The Right Hon. Gentle: 114 a briefly recapitulated his objections to the prin . iple or the motion, anlasierted, that what had been dune by Ministers in the present instance had alreedy -eceived not merely the tacit, but the positive appro; Nation Parliament. • • Mr. ABE kc RUM BY had conceived. till he heard Weir Hon. Gentleman who had just sat cl : wn, •i:at the q uestion the House had to consider thie ..ight was, whether any reason could be . given for ;repinz up the Militia ? Parliament had determined :utter what circumstances it should be called a:it, but as they could not determine when that cause ease, no time for disembodying it had been It was now for the House to consider if any ii those causts now existed, and if in their absence . .•Iluisters could justify keeping it embodied.? The .tight Mon. Gentleman bad at one time seemed des postd to rest his arguments on the American war. Oi.l he mean to say that an invasion had been` to be ..ppreliended from America ? This country had for. :aerly been at war for several years with America :Acre the Minister thought of calling out the Militia. T. t w as not called out in the former American war till France took a part in it. Now, however, .the gieat evil against which it was desiguei fo protect -le country was treated as a bugbear, and the people were juggled out of the sums rite& siary to support it ashen no occasion for it was shewn to exist. The 'Right Hon. Gentleman had found that the Ameri can war was not enough for his argument, and he ten Ores the true.reasons for its being kept up—the :irce,3ity of supplying itb..the .11.1ilitia the piece of the regular troops. nGsv employed .in. Models. .The Ight Hon. Gentleman considered Parliament to lave sanctioned this measure because they had voted , :ertain sums on account, which were called for by the Nolile Lord (Lord Palmerston) before Chrtstmes, cud which were stated to be but a small part of those :ccessai y to meet the military expenditure of the ?ear. To press this as a proof that the measure had been considered and a perovrd of by Parliament, WAS - ininstifiahle. The Right Hon. Gentleman had said, 'he militia being kept embodied had not been felt as a hardship, to the extent supposed, as not more than nl.l man in ten served compulsorily. *Thic stat ement alight be Correct, as to. the number of petsoes serving . 'or themselves, 'compared with those of substitutes ; 'iut Le could state, no : perfectly good authority, that °heir not being, disembficlied was a grievance which was deeply felt mini complained of. Mr. BATHUR wr explained. • Mr F. DOUGLAS said, if it was intended the !Ailitra should not be kept tip when there was no !anger of invasion, it ought to have been disem hcdied long ago. He considered the preamble to the Act bite the preamble to other Acts, the pro 7 :itions ..f which held good though the circumstances illeded to in the preamble no longer existed. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said, that on 'his subject his opinion wastonfirmed by all that he )ad heard from distinguished persons elsewhere. He :sad consulted many or his friends on this subject, lad had foLnd none that had dilated from h'm in 'heir opinions. His Honourable and Learned Frier.d (the Sulieitor.General), and himself had been re. Kesented as giving an opinion in. favour of, the `:rmn, and therefore, not to be tleircirJed on. But Ataely it could not be.supposed that they would give 411 t.i.in: .a to the Secretary of State, advising the f 3 ovetaraent to keep the Mili is embodied it they ;tad 11.;t thought such a measure perfectly legal. It 'ad been stated that their opinion had been given, that ministe r , might call out the Militia, and keep ie .mbudied according to their own caprice. Now, the 1 4ct was, that they bad more than once stated, in htt opinion, that it must be done under the revert ibility of Ministers. A man serving in the Militia, mating the argument Of the Honourable and Learned ' , lover might say, ia why is not my regiment disem `4o(lied, as well as the others ?" But then the Ho leurable and Learned Gentleman would tell the Ailitianten, that it was not legal for Ministers to them embodied ; but it was quite illegal in them f) do any thing to release themselves from service. Ali; was the argunwnt. of the Honourable and Le.trned Gentleman, but it had not altered his opinion. 81r A. PIGOTT hoped, that if the Act of Par 'went were not sufficiently plain, care would be taken (; make it so. He had never found in any law-book . liat he was, when consu l t i ng t h e sense o f an A c t of ,b4 rliament, to ask or consider what had been the ! , ; - actice of Ministers ; and jibe did, he would and' it as to laugh ar an Act of Parliament. When the Militia was called out, in 17W-1, it WAS only for the ricks of some dirty boys at Dundee. tut in the • i loclamation it w is stated, that acts of riot and in .:election h.d broken out in the kingdom, and the jaw was stated by his Majesty, in his Speech at the opening OtPa . As . yam ; Wl* *it tte Witte was called out in 1778, in dinsequence of France fortdin . g a Connection with O ur re b e lli ous su bj ects America, it *as not done without an 'Mt of Pattie- ' went. He certainly did not tee any chaise in the .Acr dilecting any given time for disembodying the Militita But did it follow there was not a limit to the time when they were to disband the Militia ? Surely, when the circumstances ceas d which audio. rind the calling out of the Militia, their services for that time should cease also. Could it be s:iid, that when the danger of foreign invasion and of domestic insurrection ceased, that the Militia should be kept in force ? These were the only causes that authorised' the calling out or keeping up the Militia, and when they were gone, when was this power to cease ? If this argument were to beheld, -it would be vesting a discretionary and perpetual power in Ministers to keep a force of 40,000 armed men on foot, which Might be made very dangerous to the Constitution. If Ministers were impeached fur keeping up this force unconstitutionally, it seemed the answer would be, that Parliament had voted pay and subsistence .for the Militia for 62 days longer. But he maintained =that it was the duty of Ministers to advise the Crown to send back these men to their homes, and not to keep up this unnecessary and unconstitutional force. He thought it necessary on these grounds, to state what was his real opinions. In the reigns of Charles 11. and James 11. large forces weee kept up by those Princes from their own means, without the assistance of Parliament. N ow , if hi s Majesty were enabled so to maintain the Militia, Ministers might then argue that there was no clause in the Act of Parliament that could oblige his Majesty to disband the Militia. He therefore considered the arguments he had heard again* the motion of his Honourable and Learned Friend with great jealousy. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said, that he would not be a servant of any Government whatever that would ask him for a legal opinion, and expect from him one that be knew to be illegal. He knew he had many erroneous opinions to answer for, but he did not think a single dishonest one. On the sub. ject under discussion Ministers asked them a question of law, and not one of discretion or responsibility.—. It Government could not legally keep up the Militia, lie could not conceive but that any man in it would be entitled to his habeas calm, in order. to obtain his discharge ; nor could lie be bound in obedience to an illegal restraint. In 1778 the Militia was not called out on account tf the French war, but because his M +jest y's subjects in America were in rebellion; and in order to spare all the disposable farce for that coun try. He believed most unbiasseal) that his Majesty, having called out the Militia for a legal cause, was not bound by the Act of ?arliament at any specific perini to disband them; subject always to the power of Parliament and the Constitution over that and every other prerogative of the Crown. Lord MILTON maintained that the question had been so framed its Lord Sidmouth's letter as to make it impossible to give a different answer from that which had been returned. The wprds of the Act, and not its general scope and object, had been made the subject of consideration. It had been said, that if it was illegal to keep the Militia embodied, the men had a tight to free themselves from the service. Burhow was this to be done I They must first sub ject themselves to corporal punishment. They must commit some act which would cause them to be tried by a Couromartial that the legal point should be settled; so that no militia-man could undertake to obtain the redress to which it was said he would then be entitled, without first presenting himst:lt in the light. f a criminal. A Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. B. Bathurst) came down with the insolence of a Minister, and toll- the House, that no corsylaint had been made on the part of Militia men. This was nut the tact : he had seen lettets full of such complaints, and he knew that the Derbyshire Militia had presented a strong remonstrance with 300 signa tures against being kept embodied 4 under the iron. .hand of military law," that was their own expression. It'aras too bad to insult the House by stating that no complaints had been made. If; in case a new European war should break out, Ministers wished again to till the ranks of the Militia, let them now keep their' faith .with the Militia, and not put it in the power of the disaffected, those who were always ready Spargere Toms is vulgum ambiguas, to tell the mem, •, recti:lect, that language, and those promises were holden out in 18OSand broken in 1814" Mr. .B. BA►THURST explained. He had merely raid, that the Militia in-general bad made do coat ' pLiint. The House would judge whether he were inure entitled to the epithet bestowed by the Noble Lord upoishim than that Noble Lord himself ? Lord MILTON explained. Colonel WOOD stated, that the regiment of 01i litia to which he belonged had been much dissatisfied at the idea of not being disbanded ; but that when they were told there would be occasion for the continuance of their services, every symptom of dissatisfaction had disappeared. The argument with respect to the , disembodying of the militia would have been urged with more force five or six years ago ; for when Bo naparte was losing his armies in Spain, whilst the praams lay totting in his harbour, and he had not a single vessel at sea, there certainly was no danger of invas;on. Was Ireland now in a state to be left without a military fora There was no police there, and it would Have been Inhumanity in Ministers to have withdrawn the Militia which maintained its peace. A Noble Lord had said that the militia was suffered to continue in time of peace; was this a time of peace when the ratification of the Treaty with America had not yet been received, and the Continent of Eu rope was not yet settled.? He wished, should a new Act be produced on the subject, all the present grounds for calling out the militia, should be left out ;—that the right of doing it should remain at the discretion of the Crown ; but that Ministers should come down to Parliament, to explain the grounds on which they should adopt the measure, that it might be confirmed or withdrawn, according as its propiiety should be made more or less apparent. This, he thought,' would be a more constitutional course than the pre. seat.—(A katfh-) Lord STANLEY supported the motion. He thought, that although no specific time was marked for the disbanding of the militia, it was clearly 'M. plied. Sir FREDERIC FLOOD defended the 'state of the Police in Ireland. There vete 68 resident Ma. oistraLes in the comfy of Werkid o who bad kept the trifitodt the aid of the Militia. He dm/roved bf the interchange of the regiments, is it wits right that the people of England should knew the eharAc ter of Irishmen, and the people of Ireland that c. , 1 Englishmen, to tighten the bond of the onion. Mr. LYTTLETbMwheo told by high leg tl all thority, that it was left at the discretion of the Clew: to keep the Militia embodied as long as it pleasze. considered that declaration a sohject of suilicien elem. But when it was added, that so long es It:. land would be dissatisfied, it would be recess try to keep the Militia on foot, in order to subjugate the people of that country, he trist think that we stood in a very precarious position. He also deprecated the additional expense Which the maintenance of part of the Militia embodied would occasion, and ice:en:- mended economy. Mr. HILEY ADDINGTON stated, that the re giment of Deibyshire Militia had already r, eched that country, and, if he was not mistaken, lief by, where they expect e d to be disembodied. This v. as the cause of the fettling of disappointment which they had experienced on being called upon for continued services, and had produced that memorial, signed by 120, ,and not 330 privates, who, in the most respect ful manner, requested to know on what V01,111.,5, is the Prince Regent had issued a warrant for dis banding, they were kept up as a corps? Tills me. moriel had been sent to him, and transmitted to the Cammander-in-Chief, who returned an answer the same evenirig. The effect of this reply had been so instantaneous and complete, that not one symptom of dissatisfaction remained. Sir JOHN NEWPOP.T stated, that if there wts no e ff ective police in Ir eland, and the country was not governed as it ought to be, the f telt must rest with the Administration. if we depended at :id times on a military force to retain Ireland, then our tenure was indeed precarious. Other ame.ms must lie adopted. Colonel WOOD explained. Mr. PEELE defended the Police of -Ireland. It was, or might be an effective Police, if the Grand Juries of Counties chose to exert the authority with which they were invested. • He reproved the espies sion used by the Member for Worcestershire, " Sub jugating the people of Ireland." He had been charged with exaggerating the dissentious existing in Ireland himself, but he should be sorry to have re presented the state of that country to be such, that the English Militia should be necessary to subjugate it. The feelings displayed by the Irish towards those regiments, sufficiently proved that they did not consi der them as tyrants or conquerors, but merely as aids to the civil power. Mr. LYTTLETON explained, that he had been - Misunderstood. If he had said what was attributed to him, he bad done as with a reference to the view of the subject taken by the Honourable Colonel. Sir JOHN NEWPORT had done the same with .respect to the state of Police in Irelai.d. - Mr. PEELE apologised ; he had not heard the speech ef the Honourable Colonel. Lord G. CA.VENDISH, respecting.the regiment of Derbyshire Militia, stated, that it had marched to Banbury, from thence to Plytnouth and Dartmoor Barracks, where it was at presei,t st Sir SAMUEL RA/MELLY said he would detain the House a very short time with his reply. In al luding to the opinion of the I...tte Advisers . of the Crown, he had not intended to attach any bl,:tue to his Honourable and Learned Fricnds (the Attorney ind Solicitor-Geneed) I i:. ic.tew it w.ts their duty to give their op:rion wan asked : he also knew they were infees.,;.: , of giving any usher than their re il opinio.. time time: all he meant to say was—that they were not exempt from the imperfectiens of hu , m..n nature; and that, as Officers of the Clown, they were the last that ought to be consulted in a case whore the Crown was interested. The Honourable and Learned Gentleman then adverted to the situa ' tions 'of his Honourable and Learned Friend (the I Attorney. General) which he deemed incompatible, and said, that though he knew his Honourable and Learned Friend was not the first who held these si. tuations together, he hoped he should be the las: But recurring to the question, he said that his Ma jesty's Law Advisers must allow, either that the King is only empowered to keep the Militia embo died so long as the occasions mentioned in the Act for embtaiying them lasts, or that he is empowered to keep the:n embodied as he pleases. In the first case, they certainly should be no longer kept embo died, as all the occasions mentioned in the Act for raising the Militia have ceased ; and in the last case, they were converted into a standing army.—(llear.) As to what an Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Douglas) at this side of the House said, about having the Mi litia kept embodied in 1798, though there was no fear of invasion or rebellion, the tact was directly against that Honourable Gentleman's positions; for at was found necessary to pass a particular Act to al low them to be embodied while the war in America lasted. As to what had been said about the Militia. man's net being bound to march, if it was illegal to , keep him embodied, he was bound by his oath to' obey his orders till discharged ; and though it may be illegal in the Crown to keep him embodied, he was bound to obey while kept embodied. He was deprived of Trial by Jury, of Habeas Corpus, and of different privileges, as well as subject to torture ; while his only, redress for even torture, was by bring ing an action, which was a redress not within reach of most Militia-men. He concluded by saying that this was certainly one of the most important ques tions that ever came before the House. Mr. DOUGLAS explained about the calling out of the Militia in 1779.-I'he question was then put, and a division took place, when the numbers were Ayes • • • Noes - 174 Majority In favour of Ministers 103 CORN LAWS. The Report was brought up, and the Resolutions were read seriatim. On the Resolution fixing . the Protecting Price being read— Mr..CALCRAFI* said, he felt it an imperiou, duty to move an Amendment. Ili% object was to move that the protecting price should be 725. instead of 80s. Nothing certainly that he had seen or heard bore them out in fixing such a price as 80s. lie would give every necessary encouragement to agri culture, and should of course much prefer that pro visions should be furnished from Ireland than from the Continent. But he.uncerely believed that 72i. ' would be a sufficient .remtmerative price to enable Ireland to push her agriculture as far as c4uld be ,etchr(i Tte, Thai:TRIO, eiiitd lir*lieet=lre‘ - Tiitii pAss with m .vine Itn mnimtviiihntt. neat wa;, t:l4t the wnid . " eigh.y" Anuld be left out, aiot t'i %•(I'.t 4 , vettty" sub ,t owe l. tft PEE E was in tiaVOilr of };.vi;; g the utmost posohl.• t•nr.. ota , erren, to Mr. 1i: RI 14:it wtn: I ! mot truth!? Ow I Unise at .hot late hunt- with .1 :turd upon the .4..**1::!1i wind- . les, hut simply as to the fitno , s of' laic .. On th e former discir:s•nti, nn s li t e:,: j in fo h n i:l .a s r i d le a Ti t : c . ... ch nt;:c p . i i: .)f' iit,: it at /a, ; hit h:s Itizlit lion. Friend (Ml en,mtiat tip farmer could not be pro. I H o t j i o sk s i h T u t l i d ) pr ha t ... tv l tected under that sum. He (Mr. Baring ) had given great offence f.r speaking plainly upon the subject of tent ; but taking a farmer at dlOOO a year, and lowering it to C5OO, to sly that he could not than afrord to sell his corn cheaper, was complete sophistry. he thott , :ht the House should' 'nisch the question of :rice with as much delicacy as that of rent. There w.ts no less than four out of the sixteen witnesses that weleagricuatirists, who stated their op'nien of price tin kr 80s. TO.tt stun was formed upon the sums. anion that rent and taps would curium the same ; but •it those charges were to be reduced, they adrift. ted that 800. w.ts beyond the price which WAS ogees 3.ry for the protection of the farmer. He coneluded will, declaring, that he would °pi:rise the 01 igival pro pzaitions in every stage of proceeding. Mr. HUSIEISSON was satisfied that 80s. was the lowest protecting price which circumstances demand. eel ; and that it the price 'were fixed lower, land:- v:oldd he let out of tillage, and the inaproveniems (la them stopred. SOUK persons had itividiotoly al. tuck(' to the increase of rents, but rents bad increased only in propertion to the rise of price of all tile ar ticies of life. The Right Hon. Gentleman c mcluded with observing, that if tr..e origin'? propositions were I not adopti.ni, the agriculture of England mikht be encourayed, but that of Ireland would be checked. Mr. ROSE entered into a long Staten,- nt of the opinions of dihrent witnesses, in proof that the I.l;lirst price ought to be tills. though some ot them thuisOit that 755. would be a good prot ect.i ~g price for the farmer. From the whole of their reasoning, however, he was inclined to contend that a loner price than SOs. would answer every good rurpos.... Mr. W. SMITH was of opinion that the agrcul. tnral interest was the great and par 'mount interest of the country, and t;:c home 'm .rket was the must important for trade and manufactures Vet the dif ficulties with which the country must nee sss ily be oppressed for some time to come could only be con quered by every class ot society particip:iting in the btu-diens, and the landholders cqoally with the reg. B e ing of opinion that fixing the price at t i!ltty sitil lings would have the effect a keeping corn op at that pike, he should vote for the amendment. The Honourable Member spoke for a con,id-rai4e t i m .• in illustration of this opinion, and combated m Any of the arguments, that had been urged by different Gen tlemen, under a contrlry persuasion. Mr. POLE CA It 1! iii' pre - fared the original Resn. lotions, a, being fair and benchcial towards Ireland. M!. QuIN was of a similar oricion ; and after a reply fr% Mr. Hug:assort, the Hone divided—For the Amendment 35—Against it 151—Majority in favour of 80s. 119. The orinis):ll Resolutinns were then agreed tn, and the House adjourned at Half past Three o'Cleck. 71.7.;111LT lA' THE 1J ROUGH. CHAIRING OF Ma. BARCLAY. The proposed measures frr restricting the irnpnrta tion of foreigi grain into this country, we have at. ready stateJ, have excited c , n;iderable ferm:nt in the minds of the inhabitants of this ;zreAt cizy, and the scene which wars yesterchty ex!iii,ited in the Borough of Southwark, exemplified, in the strongest manner, the truth of those observations. Our Readers may recrllect that Charles Barclay, Esq. WAS but a few days back returned, by a very consid..rable majority, to serve in Parliament, as the Representative of the Borough of Southwark, alter a fruitless, but spirited, opposition on the part of the friends of William Jones Burdett, Esq. Subsequent to this Gentleman's Retort*, the subject of the Corn Laws has been brought before the House of Com. mons. and as this is a question in which the interests of all classes are concerned, tnnsiJerable curiosity was manifested by the in::abitints of the Borough to know the course which their new Member would pursue respecting it, the more especially as they had yet 'an opportunity of expressing their sentiments upon his conduct, during the ceremony of chairing, which was still to take place. The opponents of Mr. Barclay's election, natural, looked with.an eye of jealousy upon every step which he took, and were most rea.ly to adze the first oppor tunity which might be afforded them to evince their disapprobation of his principles. A circumstance soon occurred which gave food for resentment. mit event to which we allude, was the first division which Took place in the House of COMMIOSIS upon the Corn Laws. The question upon which this division took place was, as to whether the House should resolve into a Committee upon Mr. Robinson's Resolutions or not, for the purpose of deliberately considering their object, and the policy of their adoption. On this occasion the great majority of the House voted for the Committee,•the minority amonnting only to sirs Members, independent of the Tellers. Of this minority, Mr. Calvert, the second Repre sentative for the Batough, was one ; and, in a letter which he addressed to Mr. Solomon Davis, one of his constituents, after adverting to other topics which gave Ilse to the correspondence, he stated, as a mere matter of fact, that 4 ' he had just been lilt in a Mi. nority of six against the Corn Laws, and that his colleague, Mr. Barclay, remained in t:,.? 11,use, with a considerable majority in favour of the question." l'his communicatien, without further explanation, was published, and hence a spirit of oppusitioh was raised against Mr. Barclay. s:in . ner hlid the friends of Mr. Etrcl.ty heard if the cAnni:tion which had obtained existence, thAn• they used every effort to counteract its baneful in fluence. Vestry Meetings were called in edery parish, and Mr. Barclay, in person, protested against the.ero. neous conclusions which had been drawn fro n the Course he had pursued. Unkattun ly, however, the groat but of the population had not a4ntissil.n to these racetiligs, and designing persons t..k.n 4 advan tage of the.' inexperience, and want of tuluatattout