Star. — London, England, 1819-11-25 00:00:00

. • . i t ,4 .; 1 ~, • r ! I) t I ~ + . 1 I I ' ~. .~ `~. 11 1111 4, , 1 _ r ceeding to distussion under such an influence, have . : trarperately decided?—(Hear, hear). One thing war .- pow that these misrepresentations were ex .. •• that a gr eat deal of the gravamen was done : .y. Undoubtedly the Meeting at Manchester was - -. - . tended with great calamities. • Much suffering and loss of lives had taken place ; in deploring their oc - •' currence every humane mind would sympathize, and in that feeling he would yield to no man. He knew • well the nature of the artifice too successfully prac tised by. those who endeavoured to pervert the public .• 717. ": judgment by unfounded aggravations. Suppose any - one of these said one hundred persons were slain. ' Suppose he answered—No, six only were destroyed. " Six only !" would be the exclamation. 0, you barbarian ! is ii thus you trifle with the sacrifice of • life ?" This was . the common trick. The man who reduced the exaggeration to the reality was . • held up to the Palle Indignation, and Was at once ..• proclaimed the unfeeling champion of inhumanity— • (Hear, hear).—The Agents who were thus employ ed knew their lessons well—they were the• tricks of 1793 and 1791: they were the too successful expe dients of a Marat and a Robespierre—( Hear, hear). But to whom were these deplorable calamities to be attributed? Was it not, he would say, to those who were actuated by selfish objects of ambition ? No, he 'would not say ambition ; he would not squander such a sentiment as that motive implied on such base aspirations—(Hear, hear, hear)._ They t% ere to he attributed to those who sought mis chief for mischief sake—who ran the race of ruin, not to rise upon that ruin, but to contemplate the havoc and desolation they produced—who would agitate their country with storms, though with the conscious incapacity of being able to direct the whirlwind—( Hear, hear). They were the crimes of those outcasts of society, who would make society itself an outcast in the dissolution of its elements— (lL.ar, hear, hear). It is to them the widowed mo ther and the orphan child can trace their miseries. Oa their heads be f9r ever fixed the responsibility of all the blood that has been shed(Cheers).— This being the case, could nothing be seen in the evils they all lamehted but a party question ; and were those evils, for pasty purposes, to be attributed to Mi nisters ? It was pretended that a Court of Law could not entertain this question ; that the Bar of that House was the place for investigating it. It hap pened, however, unfortunately for Gentlemen who might be disposed to make speeches upon the sub ject, that some blundering fellow obtained a Rule the other day in the Court of King's Bench against the Constables who dispersed the Coventry Meeting, And thus destroyed a fine subject for debate. From the conduct of the Magistrates being trumpeted be fore the Se,sion, as the greatest outrage and atrocity, for the inve,tigation of which that House only could form the proper tribunal, it now appeared that they were -to be called upon, not to punish the Magistrates .if guilty, but to try lether they could have spoken to Mr. Nadin three-quarters of a minute before they did--(A laugh).—With his Hon Friend, the Member for Yorkshire, he doubted whether that HOuse was the proper tribunal. He would not agree with the Honourable Member opposite (Mr. Phillips) • that 'if the Magistrates were innocent, no mischief could arise from putting them on their trial...— He deprecated the argument, teat innocent men ought not to fear, but seek, trial. What an opinion such men must have of the consummation of human felicity !. As far as his F.rwer went, he would never suffer a man, whom he knew to be innocent, to be dragged daily, ander the misconstruction cf the Pub lic, before the bar, with the consciousness of his inno cence alone to support him. Ile admitted, he was even prepared to contend, that even justice ought to be dealt between man and man. In former times, and in other countries (certainly never in this happy land) favour and affection had sometimes been strewn to the higher in preference to the lower classes of so ciety. At present, however, in consequence of one of those oscillations in the human mind, which seemed, occasionally, to take place, with reference to every subject of human interest, there appeared to be a very prevalent disposition to presume in favour of the lower against the higher classes.— He by no means blamed this disposition. If any in equally wcre allowed to exist between them, the preponderance ought certainly to be on the side of the former. But when a case occurred in which the higher classes were immediately concerned, it was a disposition that ought not to be allowed to operate against them. Now, what kind of equal justice could be administered between the traitors of the IGth August, and those who suppressed the treason, if the Amendment proposed by the flight Hon. Gentleman was acceded to by the House? Those who had en deavoured to set the country in a flame would be allowed to traverse their indictments, and to go to their trial at the period which pleased them ; those who had exerted themselves to defeat their machi nations would be allowed no choice, no challenge, but would be put on their trial immediately. Those who were accused of crime would be permitted to go to trial when they liked, and the witnesses against them would be examined on oath ; while the accusers would be tried to-morrow at the Bar of that House, on evidence not given under any such solemn sanction. And this was what his llonourable and Learned Friend opposite, with the bandage over his eyes and the balance in his hand, held out to the House as strict . justice! That the House itself were fully aware of • the difference of evidence taken on oath and taken without that sanction, was evident, from the fact that all cases in which their own immediate interests, or those of their Constituents were involved, they inva riably referred to the consideration of a Committee, before whom evidence could be heard on oath. To put the injustice of the proposed proceeding in a stronger point of view, he begged the House to con template the result under either alternative. Sup pose the House of Commons, by a vote of the majo iity, should find that no blame was imputable to the Magistrates of Manchester, would that save them from a prosecution in a Court of Justice? No; the inquiry would merely furnish evidence against them, disclosetheir car, and send them prejudged to another Court. If, on the contrary, a majority of that House found the Magistrates guilty of the offencewith which • they were charged, and address the Throne to expel them from the .Commission, would that save them from a prosecution in a Court of Justice? No. Such would be the equal justice of the case 1 In opinion, therefore, it was morally impossible for bialinecgt by others , and who he would wish others to deal rim, to agree a w n is y h m ed an to w f h o o llo d w ul th y as considered ° s u re g d erm a l e the oof s d u e inch as he had just described. He did not attribute to an Amendment, the effect of w hich would be to the Right Honourable Gentleman any such de- . the — he was at a inent had been proposed by any of Align, but he would frankly say, that if the Amen - loss howto denominate them—the white-hatted gentry, he should suspect that they had a double same in view., If by the evidence of persons not examined on oath the House should be surprised into a decision against . the Magistrates, their vengeance would be indulged. If, on the contrary, the Magisteates should be ac quitted by the House, they would have a new ground of clamour against the House. Either result would be delicious to those Gentlemen. In the one event. they would crush their enemies, in the other they would undermine the Constitution. Ile would now say a few words on the main subject, of which the House appeared to have almost lost sight—namely, the Speech from the Throne. In that Speech, the state of the country had been painted in colours, such as those who advised the Crown had seldom before been under the painful necessity of employing. That the picture was not overcharged, however, he had a right to presume—as no allegation to that effect had been made frost; any quarter. With the ex ception of the Honourable Baronet opposite, no one who had touched on the Meeting at Manchester had spoken of the designs of the movers of that Meeting as otherwise than moseatrocious. That Honourable Baronet had talked of the flags used on that occasion, as mere matters of parade. But was any one so blind as not to know that banners, ribbons, and other such devices, were frequently as clear indications of pur pose as words? When some years ago an orange cockade was frequently worn in Ireland, would it have been an answer to the complaints made of such a practice to say, " what signifies a yellow ribbon ?" Such things had great signification. Who but the Honourable Baronet could doubt that the flags of the Meeting at Manchester meant defiance? What did the inscription " Universal Suffrage or Death" mean, hut that those displaying it were solicitous for that which was incompatible with the Constitution, and that they were ready to purchase it with their blood? Could such a Meeting be called legal? Was it pos sible that any one could imagine it:could be so? Could it be so considered in common sense? And let it be remembered, the Law was held to be the perfection of common sense. He would appeal, on. this subject, to the Gentlemen opposite—to the Whigs s—nay, to the Whiggissimus. He would ask him whether if, in the year 1715, an assembly of 100,000 men had met, With white roses in their hats, and is Legitimate Monarchy" embroidered on their flags ; and if any unfortunate Tory had stood up in Parlia ment, and had protested that those symbols meant Inothing—that white was no colour—and that " Le gitimate Monarchy" referred to the Family just established, he would not have been scouted, and a Law have been passed by the Whigs of that day at least is strong as the Riot Act?—(llear).-- - After some further observations, to the same effect,, the •Right Hon. Gentleman proceeded to animad vert, in forcible terms, on the unceasing efforts now made to mislead the lower classes, who must, neces sarily, constitute the great strength and power of every country, and to whose interests the most scru pulous attention ought to be paid ; for he would say,' in the language of 'Goldsmith " Princes or Lords may fleutish or may fade, A breath can make them, as a breath has made ; ' But a bold peasantry, their country's pride, When once destroy'd, can neyer be supply'd r To this he would willingly subscribe; and cordially as he agreed with it, he must also contend that nothieg could be more destructive to its vital interests, than attempts to disparage the Magistrates. If once the official duties should be rendered odious, by whom watild its functions be performed ? It was possible to elect new Members of Parliament, the Sovereign might create new Peers, but if th e Magistracy was destroyed, it could not be supplied ; and by such an event society would be more disorganised than by all the declamation or violence of the disaffected, A ti _ able Lord had remarked upon what he termed the contradictory conduct of Government; that on, 'one occasion, when it was proposed to refer an in quiry to a Court of Law, a Bill of Indemnity had been passed to prevent it. Now this was perfectly true; but the ground on which the Bill of Indemnity had been passed was, that as large powers had been granted by the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act, and as many proceedings had taken place on secret inforMation, upon a pledge that it should not be re. vealed; and as it would be impossible to go into a Court of Law without giving up the sources by which information was obtained, the indemnity' was called for from Absolute necessity. Another topic that had been introduced was, that of Par-, liamentary 'Reform. The Right Honom'able Gen tleman, in his opening speech, had cautioned him that the time would arrive when it would be ne cessary to re-consider the measures that had been adopted. He did not mean to say he should, on all occasions, resist Parliamentary Reform ; but he thought more of hazard than advantage wctild result from the attempt, and upon these grounds hi should resist any advance. His Majesty s Ministers had no personal interest in resisting Reform, because if the fi anchise sho u ld b e t rans f erre d from loraham, Peterborough, and Wirichelsea, to Manchester, Bir mingham, and other large towns of the kingdom, the presumption was, that they would gain additional strength on their side of the House. The House, as constituted, though not subserviently pliable to, yet faithfully represented the interests of the People. The spectators in Europe consiiered this country, in saving itself, saved Europe, by a long and useful war ; a war of efforts without example, and privations such as were never before borne. If the war were a sin, it was the sin of the People ; and however it might be now decried by the Opposition, was 'undert *ken for the good of Europe and the liberty of mankind. That war was undertaken for the overthrow and de struction of all tyranny ; and in that war they had triumphantly succeeded. To say that Reform would tranquillize the public mind, was more thee any man in his senses could believe. The views of the Radical Reformers, if realised, would sweep away every thing held sacred ; for they would have a Government - oi passion and of will, and not of reason and of law.— He did not think the sway of the popular will would lead to an immediate scramble for all property ; but be thought it would snake the House of Commons • the mere slave and puppet of the popular feeling,' Proper concession should not belelaysei toes long ;: but precipitate concessions led to hormet in it neigh- I bowing country, which wise man woulsl avoid , in England. The House should .not bend to popular will, or be led away by temporary popularity. There were quiet and loyal millions, who looked up to the Government for protection, and they should be pro tected. There were seditious persons possessing a very dangerous influence, who should be put down; and if they and their abettors could only be put down by vigorous measures—those measures should and would be resorted to without delay—( Cheers). Mr. BROUGHAM, after bespeaking the usual candour of the House, in consideration of the lateness of the hour, said, he must begin by joining with tbe, Right Honourable Gentleman in the eloquent eulo gium upon the incalculable, the hardly to be ex pressed value of our Magistracy, who not only acted gratuitously, with a few exceptions on the part of the Manchester Magistrates, but were necessarily exposed to the discharge of disagreeable functionC He la mented the transactions now under discussion, prin cipally on account of the authority of the Magistracy, since the only alternative in preserving the Peace was the Constitutional Magistracy or the Military— (Cheers).—He should lament deeply the result of those transactions, if the Magistrates implicated were not separated from the Magistracy in generaL The inquiry proposed was the only means of effecting this separation. If the inquiry were granted, the guilt, the indiscretion, or the unconstitutional vigour, if there were such, of the Magistrates in question, would be ascertained, and the body of Magistracy remain unaffected. Upon the particular Magistrates, upon them alone, either punishment directly, or the censure of the House, or removal from office by the Crown, should fall ; and the Magistracy in ge neral would be free from the stain which really must fall upon them, if the impression which now existed was left unremoved.-- ( Loud cheering ). If the impression remained, if it should be believed that the course of justice was impeded, that undue powers were apt to be exercised, that undue stretches of official power were practised, that military force was applied at the pleasure of men in office, then the catastrophe was consummated, and he must join in deploring that the confidence of the - country in the Magistracy must be shaken.. He would now ad. vert to the observations on the Yorkshire Meeting. The Right Honourable Gentleman and the Noble Lord had said that there had been a compromise be tween the Whigs, with Earl Fitzwilliam at their head, and on the other, those whom the Right Hon. Gentleman, forgetting his promised and original ab stinence, called white hats. This agreement was said to benovel, unconstitutional, curious, and in consistent with the character of Earl Fitzwilliam and with the Amendment now proposed. The Whigs indeed were all anxious that a supposed encroach ment on the Constitution should be specially investi gated, and that redress should be given, if that were required. At that meeting there was an agreement referring the subject to Parliament for inquiry and , redress. Parliamentary Reform, which had no more to do with the object of the meeting than tythes or the poor rates, and on which they did not agree, wa , by consent excluded from consideration. The Right Honourable Gentleman was naturally much offended that they had ;vied so wisely; and followed his own eimeoplp, thnues :ndood, ke generally sailed much nearer the Kind. (A laugh.) Hence all jokes and jibes; because the points on which they differed had nothing to do Isith the purpose of meeting, and those on which they agreed were its sole object, and con tained in the requisition. This wa s the head and front of Lord Fitzwilliam's offending. Thi s wa s the con spiracy of which:his Lordship and his friends were ac cused—a conspiracy, he knew not for what purpose. Persons of as acute observvtion as were in the coun try, and unconnected with any class, described to him the veneration, and respectful attention, with which the Noble Lord (Milton) and his father were listened to, even by the humblest person present. Having dis posed of this part, he had exhausted a considerable part.of the Rt. Hon. Gentleman's speech. • As to the legality or illegality of the Meeting, no opinion was given upon his side of the House, because it depended upon facts to be established in evidence. The Right Hon. Gentleman, and the Noble Lord, had brought forward no documents which supported their state ments. He lamented that the Hon. Member for Dub lin had forgotten what• he so wisely and eloquently urged respecting Ireland—that coercion, if used at all, should be the last means used, and conciliation should be the first. That he had made use of his con veoient 1/ s, excited his regret, and would be hea r d with grief in his own country, as well as in this.— The Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Canning) had been absent, and learnt the nature of the transactions frcm a file of Newspapers put-at once into his hands. This was unfortunate, for the Right Honourable Gen tleman had made his extracts very incorrectly— (Hear, hear). For instance, the extract from the speech at York was incorrect. It omitted, not from design, but very conveniently, the words respecting the legality of the Manchester Meeting—" As far as hitherto appeared" (Cheers). The legality was spoken "of. with similar caution at Cumberland and West moreland. All that was said was, that it was prime lick legal, and that inquiry should be made whether it was legal or not? The Right:Hon. Gentleman had replied to the Hon. Baronet . (Str F. Burdett) only by old worn-out and stale remarks on Parliamentary Reform, and left untouched a speech which must live in their recollections as the most consoling, able, wise, -and, for practical effect in preserving the peace, and inducing the deluded portion of the people to return to the exercise of good sense, the most useful speech ever heard within those walls. It was more convenient to quit that speech than to answer it, and to bring forward statements which had not been found in any arguments in that House, and might have perished in the eolumns in which they appeared, so far as he knew. But he would spew the substantial correctness of the facts which had been triumphantly urges as misrepresentations. The Hononrable Member for Norfolk (Mr. Coke) had said, that Major Cochrane had interfered to pre vent a woman and child from being sabred. Major Cochrane pointed out some inaccuracy in this. But. Major Cochrane did not deny that a woman and child had been sabred—(Hear, hear, hear). This had never been denied, and he pledged himself• to prove it true, if the House would give him leave. It was I also true, that Major Cochrane had interfered in ano. to prevent the / * entre e t t o h H a o d no sai urtl h e amt Mtib er d s west ol: w thhaoet tempting to escap e of r. t from with c thise excessive i circumstance candour, s 6 ta 'e ncer at e : tacking came th y er k part h o w e t statement b D tl n ew n fih d e. t w r, er c e on n t r ot a d to ict i e x d be th il. lo d be ad : :o ' ll / ,' deception. hadiad beeninference afterwards, drawnwi t sharpened, h tide Newspaper s. err ion from Meetings were instruments of ma pre b v res en :::e rth , i e n r fa rn cr i , sr sl e ta p r r :e s : n e t d at i at Unt Mr. DUNDAS here begged to state. in to the Public, that the swords had not been for the purpose of the Meeting ; the swords sent to the cutler, but it was in the usual (Hear, hear I from the Ministerial side). Mr. BROUGHAM.—If bis lion. Friend lowed him to proceed, he would have saved trouble of making the observati( ns he had He meant to say, that the statement in fore the Coroner's Inquest was, that the svead s been sharpened with a View to that particular He hoped the House knew him too well to e , that he would shelter himself under a quibble . , was evidently imputed to him. The swords ) sent to be sharpened before the Meeting, as at in evidence. They had been so sent some few before the Meeting was callea, and after of calling it "as formed. The Magistrate. a:, men were aware of this intention, and in cot.: sent the swords to be sharpened. The ci was drawn from the knowledge of the intention which the Magistrates were fixed. AnieLe• of that inference was, that no such usage ~ , a prevail; and that with respect to a corps eta,. existed so short time, it was absurd to talk of He did rot shrink, therefore, from the c, that the swords were sharpened for the pullers.... he was in error, he desired to have his But if errors ten thousand times more ni could be detected, it was nothing to the Some errors and some falsehoods must ale ars pear on questions always disctkseu, thank Geo, so much interest by the People of this cep Granting for a moment that the Manchester it was .illegal, there still remained that important tion—Were no illegal means used in its He conceived it would . not be contended, did illegal Meeting. was to-be dispersed by illegal He approved of the interference of the He, cause it was a question of deep public im7 and involved, in a great degree, their 6,113. it meant to be contended, that the functions of House, admitted, as it was, to be the Grand of the Country, were su wine;} .iiireient, No tially distinct from its other privilege-, that they exist at all times without one interfering wi.' When that House directed any man to be by their Attorney-General, was it ever Eeric:.:siy bated whether hos crime was one cognizable by a not? Did they stop to ask such a question it .cases of Mr. Swan, of Sir Manasseh Lo, ez, of Reeve, of Mr. Stockdale, or of M, The Learned: Gentleman, after strongly cc upon an appearance of levity which 'he grievt any HonourableGentlenian entertain upon thee, observed, that he did not consider the qt Parliamentary Reform as immediate]) tonnes the question before biro. Whenever that qiitetien come before the House, be I , ad &vett his (-pi; favour ; and • whet ever the prover time for ] into it should arrive, he ..ouid rot neglect his , I The Honourable and Learned Gentleman, adia to the late trials, observed, that they were indtt triumph of the law. The m,nner i r which the had been administered on those Oceasioes. see eterruil honour on the Learned Judge who prce.' and would be sufficient to bring out the chae , of the country more pure and stronger than The law there.had been found sufficient .o own force ; and he considered, that if sear.i.... son existed, it would be also found strong e: pot them down. If it should not be so, he attribute it to the circumstance of its not . ministered with a steady hand. It was now late to complain of the licentiousness of the —too late to complain of the gross and gusting passages which were sent before the lie, and which he lamented as much as any But (continued Mr. Brougham) who were to if the Press was licentious, but they who taken any steps to correct it by the proper tion of those remedies which the law; He thanked . the House for their indulgence. remarks were sincere; and he hoped they received as from one who would rather be' of anarchy, than survive the Constitution• of Country—(Loud cheering). As soon as Mr. BROUGHAM had concluded, ral Members rose at the same time to espial Aniong these were Mr. S. WORTLEY, Lord Mit . . Mr. GLADSTONE, and Mr. CANNING, but from loud and repeated call of « Question," the , their observations could not be heard. &rangers were then ordered to withdraw, when the was put and carried without a division, think, " stood, not unanimously. Upon Mr. Tvramtv's Amendment, which was by or addition to the Address, the Division took place, appeared; For the Amendment 150 Against it 381 M The II °use then adjourned at agai nst co'C it 7iv ioeir i isMosx%. The Adjourned Debate, in the House of L on the Address, was carried on last night. House did not rise till between five and si: this morning, when the House divided on the ment, which was negatived by 381 to 150, Majority, in favour of Ministers. of 231. The of Lord GRINVILLE'S friends have abandoned Whigs, except Lord NUGENT. Sir FRANCIS BURDETT'S Speech was much plauded," not only for its ability, but its He threw out a sly challenge to the Soticrrowtik NERALj whom he." would readily engage, on alo point, there or elsewhere." The SOLICITOR- 60i. RAL last night pronounced the Manchester Sleeting trfasonable, on the following legal syllogism The object of the Meeting was Universal Suffrage Universal Suffrage was synonimous with subversion of. the Constitution—ergo the object of the M eeting was the subversion of ;he Constitution, which treasoull ,totINDON t .Pnnied and published by ism. Kart. ricildt* . . ;.-. Dace, TeMV.e- ban 4 r te ,. escap e . t Member tat die Meetirp, a osi Cie sai rvati on , nce w as , ; nd that Pub t don, B ut te, in ord.r t m ring f,. )ece rords bad usual coy Friend had saved hira had mad in evidence he swArds h rticular day ell to quibble, %AL words had' ag, arpc i , same ft:w d ter the inten itraa , .1: d y lii coi,equ A The a talc • e intention s•• ,n0.,.e. g e ~, , u orps %AL,. to talk of the ct luau• - he pui pose. error corn more nurce, :o the Fut lust aly , Ays hank Geo, this ci.untiv Chester Met.. import:nu. its disperi tended, that illegal the Hot:4, dic : it ri i hts. W unctions of Grand laq: [1:1 era, No , that :11ey g with the °the, to be prosec ver seriously • Ignitable by' a question in Lo, ez, of . Nlelviile gly commen • he grieved to upon the tub,.. the question y connected a . hat question his cpii.ion tai irne for emery. ic :m g . l i cc a, t his were ind, t wi'icb the • asions. e who Frt. t' Int the thin '.l.lore .o At-ett sedi . trong e: o, he could al is not being It was now too ess of the Press gross and dis• before the P :h as any malt ) were to bi Ley who bad proper appli• law prescribe' ndulgence. d they would . ter be the Lstitution • of concluded, sere- le to explain.-- ', Lord Micros, ;, but from the import d I. when the Add' *ugh, as we un.lu was by way ofri!. k nrp t B ab.s llan: s l a nl3: l 1 5 n 1 sieh i gC m o , d sl o e , h w h en b ° le . e l r n h : da i holgi"nao:n'