Star. — London, England, 1805-02-12 00:00:00

NuELIR 5c 0I PARLIANENTART PROG EEDINus. HOUSE OF LORDS, MONDAY. PER. tz. The Three Minions Frcbeque^ Bids Bill. the Ghia!ideation In &lenity Bill, the Offefftd rases Commiffioners Dill, and festal whet. Bills were brnughtfrom the Commons, and read a aft tier. Earl DARNLEY pcdponed his Niotion so the Addidsaal De f-nce Bill, till Thurfday, for which day the Lords were ordered to be hum: oned. • . In the Scots Appeal. Glower v. Glover, the declf oa of the Court of &arm was 'Sinned with ,tot. cogs . The Ear' of A LBRMA'IL F. wilted, previoudy to the Order of •',e Day, to intrude upon their Lordadpor attention for a few De rma for the purport of making a Modon of which he had not r. ten notice. but to which be thought there could not be aoy ;W -ilde objei-^ inn. He wilbrd to have laid Ware the Heart; copy of the Contmiinon direded to Sir Charles Middleton and others, na ry/acing them to ad in the Naval Deirtratat. He was the snore foacltous for thls objrdi, as repoets bad %breed that est. mcrilinary Powers were tntreftell to tbde pad he hear d t h at t hat. o perations would interfere with the lawn of soca cher Coanniffion appointed by Parliament, te whets sestdoes the country was touch iodated, and whet bad been egivetheedl mar the ea r p i e ce of a Noble Lord then at the bated of the Amory. whole cooled dderved the warmth essiegfern ; be did ad merely as an cater, for that early, aa gy ti bew in his = condo , * at the bead of the Adnsiraity. Lori* then moved for an bent* Addrefs tails Nl= previa", he weellil sow d og gy pkakt to ley before the s Cagy of the fog Cm. tniffioa.--OrdercA. IT. • Earl ST. VINCENT laid, that iillhotigh he felt that what he wai about to fay was 'not altogether re gular, he was induced to offer litufelf to the attention of their tordthips, in confequente of had fAllen in another place, from a perfon righ in office. He wither' to know, and' to have i-. explicitly Rated, whether it had been or was at & a t moment in the contemplation of his Majeity's 1 Minifters, to charge him with mikondeet? He hoped Oat if it was, they would afford him the means of defending himfelf, and of difclefing every ation of his public or of his private life. He trufled he Osould receive an explicit anfwer from the candour of a Noble LOrd whom he then taw in his place, and whom he thought he could with fafety call his friend. Lord HANVICESSURY faidi that he could not undertake to give any anfwer, or to enter into an explanation refpeeting what had paffed in another Nace ; but as far as his owft enquiries went into the oble Lord's conduct, either before or after he left his fituation, there did not certainly exit any grounds for thinking that fuch a meafure as the No ble Lord alluded to was in contemplation. Lord ST. VINCENT declared, he was iw fatit. lied with the anfwer, and peremptorily called upon the Noble Lord for one more full and explicit. Lord HAWKESIATRY again rots, and armed the Noble Lord be could only hate as far as he knew, as a Member of his Majefty's Council, or rathkr his official fituation, that no fuch intention had ext ad, or aid then trill, in any quarter. Lord SUFFOLK withed to know whether another report, from which much was expeited, would be Prtb.coniing from the Parliament:Ty tommiffioa at pointed, to enquire into the Naval Depart:rept ? Their krvices wire fa eminently nfehil, that he bed no temple in hiying, *gay were entitled tat tit thinks of that Hook. Lord GRENVILLE, ptiviona in entering into the difctiffion on the Pepin relative to the Negotiation and Rupture with Spate, espeelfed his Willi to be in formed, Whether the &ins fa lied hpilin to France, were Rated in Beres , or dollars? LoriMUL-GRAVEanfwered, at the fonts given were twenty-four millions in Teals, which, calculated at twopence-halfpenny ti Teat, eorreffonded with fix Zillions of tivres. StANISN PAM,. The Order of the Day for taking into confiders- Con the papers relative to the rupture with Spain laid on the Table by order of his Majefly, being read, Lord MULG RAVE rote, and laid that in laying before their Lord( !lips the papers contained in the Era volume which had been laid on the table, he was confeous that he had fo far fulfilled his duty as to liibmit to their eon fideration every paper which to himfelf apv•Jred material, in forming a true judg ment on 11,e queflion at dug. When other paper, had been deemed neceffary in another place, he had felt that his duty, and refpeet to that Houk. called on him not to allow their Lordthips to yield to any in the extent of their information on the fubjea. Now, however, that the whole Papers at all conneaed with the bulinefs were on their Lordfhips' Table, be fubmitted that no imputation emild attach to him, as if be had willingly made any concealment trom their Lordibips, or had originally withheld a !Ingle document of importance. From a perufal of there papers he trolled it would appear to their Lord (hips that the conduit both of the late and prelim Adminiflration had been governed by a fpirit of mo deration and forbearance which did them credit, and that in far from provoking a war, or arroLantll in- Coifing over a weaker enemy, and driving them into hoftilities, we had (hewn our magnanimity, in taking their &kneelers Gate into confideration, and bad only proceeded to extremitiel when a Rudied conceal ment, or rather relufal to give us any fatisfaftion on their pert, made it no longer prudent or fife for us to perfevere its our fyflem of indulgence. While, r! %fore, our magnanimity mug remain uncpieltion- J, the only other conlideration mule be, had we to bl,:idly fallen into the deception pratifed on us, as to be totally inaflive, or to allow our enemies to take advantage of our define to preferve peace, and turn it elTentially to our prejudice. In this refpea too, there would be found ground of congratulation.— By the promptnefs of our exertions and the aBivity of our fleets and cruizers, we had been enabled to avert the confequences which mutt have been in the contem plation of our enemiet,inendeavouringto a void coming to a clear and explicit underftanding on the fubjeft. Their trealure-fltips were not now enriching the cof fers of Bonaparte, bur had been intercepted and de tt:ned by our fleets. It had been flitted by a Noble Lord oppotite. that if the lumen 'cranked by Spain trance were only in terms of the Treaty of Ilde ticon, that was no jolt ground of war on the part of • kvernment. To fimport an opinion of ibis kind, ••••••.:vcr, it was laid down by our bet miters on the . . .. . 71 :,.:.....:......... i• . ......... 5 .,... .7• 7 - . , -•( . 0 .1 g ‘. 40. Nib • •:: k.A %HI ..:, i' .. ), ' ;'. : :- —• , t.— .., . . .0) ..4 ' . ',., - .'-- . . ,-- ~ k •.;• t• ....:•, „........ , . )... , ~."' -',.... AO - - -- ..."..2 . ; I ~ * 1.-.7 2 /• •• "lit ~ . . . ___-.. law of nation, that too qualifications were elfential to the Treaty—la. that it be not made during the cur rency of a war-wand fecondly, that it fhould not be pointedagainft a particular power with which the par ties had been at war. In both there refpeas, host. ever, the Treaty of Ildefonfo was clefeatvelnettber was it in the fpirit of it, defiCies; but perpetual and offenfive. It had commenced during the courfe of the former war between this country and France, and it was algebra this country by name that it was dirated. The Spanifh Minifter bad made.* compa, tilos between it and the family compaa entered into in the year. 476 r .. There, however, there was a coin• monk/ of iutereft between the parties ; a greater pro. portion according to their means was not required from the weak than from the tirong; and no union exaaions were made from the weaker party. By the family compia the allittance to be afforded by Spain to France was only as is to x 4.. By the treaty of ll defaufo, however, die fuccours on each fide are equal, and the power of the parties is preferred to he exaaly the fattle...By the compal, Spain was not to be called on uniefs France was attacked ; by the prefent tre;ty, (be lima Zit againft any power with which France may be at war. even although the fhould be the ate: grainr. In the one cafe, Spain might reprefent and inquire the caufe of her being called on for hei fith fidy ; in the other, the was bound to fimply it, on the requifition of France, without any inquiry into the caufe of the war being allowed her. Such was the &tzarina of France and Spain at the commencement of hoßilities between France and this country; and although we might unquestionably have beep then jullified, in holding the relations in svimh there two countries Hood to each other, a fullicient ground for comprehending Spain in our heAtile declaration, the policy adopted by his Majesty's then Minitfers was; if putlittle, to preferve the relations of peace between this country and Spain, and loch continued to be the fyliem purfued by the prefent Ministry. The Mark Lord then proceeded to notice the different requifi. dons made by our Government, 'through Mr. Frere, l to the Court of Spain, at different periods, and thel anfwers received by him, particularly dwelling on the abfurdity of their averment, that the fupplies of money made by Spain to France was in lieu of their contingency of (hips and men as by a cal culation, if the fifteen (hips of the line which they had engaged to furnith were rated at as high a Turn as our (hips colt, there would remain for the men a lam greater than eight times the real cxpence of furnifh mg them. From the refufal, too, of the Spanifh Court to give the information demanded as to the armaments in their porta. and from their refuting to difarm, he contended it was obvious that they were not difpufed or did not dare to difirrm, and that they only meant to temporize till their treafure (hips timid arrive. Then the moderation of this country was obliged to terminate ; and then Mr. Frere applied for his paffport. On the whole he was con vinced the Houfe mull be of opinion that our Go vernment through the whole of the negocittion prefetved a dignified moderation and a perfevering forbearance ; and he hoped, from what he knew of the Noble Lords oppotite, they would not allow them relves, for the fake of opp d ing Minifierv, to thew any difference of opinion on a lubjea in which the lidnour and dignity of the country were fo materially concerned. The detention of the treafu re Blips, he Rated, was completely unconneaed with the caufes of the war, and was not known at the time Mr. Frere had left Madrid. If, however, that queftioa were examined according to the law of nations, to analogy, or expediency, he contended it would be found to be completely jußifiable. In the year 1761 we had allowed all the treafures of Spain to arrive in their ports before we thought of proceeding to extremities. We had, however, on this occasion been more fortunate, and he was perfuaded no per fon would regret that the Spanilh treafure (hips were in our poffaion rather than in that of Bonaparte. Even too, in the orders given for the detention of thefe (hips there was to be Peen the fame fyllem of moderation which had charaaerized our condua throughout; for, though in jullice and propriety the property of the pi ivate fubjeas of a country is equally liable to be reined or detained as that of the Govern ment itfelf, the inttruaions given were to preferve private property inviolate. He therefore fubmitted that never had a country been forced into a war on more pure and immaculate grounds than this country bad in the prefent contefi with Spain ; fortunately too, the promptitude and exertions with which our orders had latterly been executed, when the condua of Spain rendered it impotlible for us longer to flint our eyes againti their intentions, had prevented us from being injured to the extent we otherwife might by our former forbearance. On thefe grounds he with confidence raked of the Houle to vote an humble Ad drefsto hisMajetly, in the terms of the Addrefs moved in the Houk of Commons. The Addrefs being put, Lord SPENCER declared, that his fentiments were very different from thofe exprefred by the Noble Lord who had moved the Addrefs ; —nor did he think be should difcharge the duty he owed to his Ring and country, did he not Rate the realms that urged him to give a vote contrary to the mo. lien. In the important quellion before the Houfe be trolled be fhould be thought fincere, when lie at " - fured their Lordfhipe, that on a fubjet in which the honour and interelts of the country were Ps deeply involved. he was not titillated by the fpirit of oppofi. dm He did not intend to refill the propofed drefs direftly, but it was his intention to fubmit an amendment, which would render it ufelefs. He felt it the duty of the Houle to exprefs the fentiments with which they were, impreffed by the perufal of the papers befirre them, and in performing that of fice himfelf, he tonfeffed he was defirous tot feparate Come parts from others. He withed moll ditlinaly to have it underilood, that he acquiefced and con curred in that part of his Majefty's declatation which Paid, that from the moment of hollilizies with France there exifled a caul . ; for war with Spahr, in confe- TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 12, 1805. quence of the treaty of St.. Ildefonro. But, while he expreffed his concurrence in. that liatement, he few that the principle thus laid.flown had been aban doned by his Majefty's Minilleys. No fteady fyllem calling for decifive explanation, was followed, and moll of their meafures were flatuatipg and tempori zing. Mr. Frere, it would kern, had,, indeed, been 'parodied to make demands of explanations, but he bad not been authorifed to enter into etplanations himfclf. The conditions of our forbenrance .on the febjeft of the fubfidy bad not been eipreftly,fpeci. Ken t and what ought not to pars unnoticed, hi; Ma rjefty's Minifter at the Court of Spain had been !eft for is confiderable time without any inftruftions.—T He could (late to their Lordfhips, that fo long an ' interval as from the 21ft of January, 0,04, to the 29th of September, in the fame year, an inttrodions whatever had been . tranfinitted to 'Mr. Frcre and his brother. It did not appear that the charge made of preparations and armaments in the ports of Spain, had. been febftintiated in i fatisfantory way; and, he was of opinion; that it would prove a difficult talk to draw a line between the orders hilted for the de tention of the mature:l6os and the adaal com miffion of tionilities. With refpeft to the laying of an embargo on (hipping, it was not neceffary,forliim to thew that it was ,a cafe very different from the de tention ,of wads at fea. His Lordibip, after noticing feveral other topics, in which he animadverted on the condo& of his Majefty's Mioifters, from the com mencement of the negotiation, to the aEtual exercife of holtilities, concluded with moving a very long amendment, containing fenthnents oppofite to thote expreffed in the addref•, of which no part was fuffer ed, according to his amendment to fiend, but the in. trodudory words--" That an humble Addrefs be prefented to his Majefly." The original motion for the addrefs and propofed amendment having been read from the woolfack, VikountSIDMOMTH role, and (poke in fubftance nearly as follows—" My Lords, having had a great (hare in the negotiation which is now under your confideration, I hope to obtain the permilfion of your Lordfnips while I offer fome -oblervations in reply to the Noble Lord who has jolt fat down. The Noble Lord has relieved me from that anxiety, and the fubjeft from forne dillieuity, by the candour and man buds of his deciaraiion, and by his admiftion, that an adherence to the terms of the treaty of St. Ilde boob° by the Court of Madrid, would in itfelf con flitute a fair and legitimate caufe of war. My Lords, if ever there were a fair and unequivocal caufe of war, it was to be found in the terms of that treaty. That treaty, my Lords, Ilipulated for unlimited fuccours, and from the very tenour of it, The whole force of Spain was to have been at the command of the requiring power. The N , .bie Leo d having made this adtnitlion, fuggefls doubts of the propriety of that forbearance and moderation which was ezercif ed by his Majefty's Minifters towards Spain. My Lords, if there be any ad of my life which I can con template with peculiar Citisfadion,it is the fliarewhich I have had in advifing and recommending that fyf. tem of forbearance and moderation, not only towards Spain, but even to a greater power, that of France. It this fyftem were wife and well advifed towards Prance, it was particularly fo with refped to Spain. The fyfiene, my Lords, was important tinder every confederation : it was conneded with the fafety of Portugal ; it was conneded with the fafety of other weaker powers. It was calculated to thew that this country would not take advantage of the neceffity by which they were oppieffed, but would allow them every rational and joftifiable opportunity of taking fuch roeafures, and making fuch arrangements, as would enable them to enfure their neutrality and to maintain their independence. His Majefty's Mi. niters, in no Raga of the negotiation, had ever re cognifed the principle, that the furnifhing of miii tary fuccours was not in itfelf a cattle of war. His Noble Friend (Lord Haws slaver) in his inftruc tion to the Englifh Charge d'Affaires at Madrid, de. fired him to alcertain the quantum of the fuccours to be fupplied to France, but carefully to abliain from giving ar y opinion as to the legality of it, and confine himlell to the bare tranfiniffil of it to his Court. So far, therefore, my Lords, fromacquiefcing in the principle, that the furnifhing of military lut enist.' was not in itfelf a fair ground of hoftilic:, it does not appear from any one paffige in the volu minous correfpondenee before the Houle, that it has ever been admitted in one tingle instance. There is no paper, no document, no infirument of any kind, which can be produced, containing one exprelEon of that tenor. Far from it, my Lords ; his Majefty's Minifter at Madrid was infirutted to point out va rious kis to that Court, the commiffion of any one of which could not but be confidered as a jutlification of heftility. Firft, the fupplying France with any more than the definite fuccours which it was' flip poled (he had profeffed herfelf content with, was to be confidered, and it was fpecifically fo declared, as a ground of war ; and in the fecond place, the en trance of any portion of French force, however in confiderable. into Spain, was alfo to be confidered as a fair ground for hoilility. Thofe two diftin& cafes were particularly and emphatically flitted to the go. vernment of that country, as pofitive and unequt. vocal cooks of war. Can it be fairly allerted, there fore, my Lords, that his Majefty's Government, of ter having fo plainly Rated to the Court of Spain, the circOmllances which would fo inevitably to minate the good underflanding between both the countries, had fluduated in their opinions ? As to the charges of indecifion, of want of fyllem, of contraditory infirudions, and the rations other ails of incapacity with which the Noble Lord has thought proper to upbraid the Government, I mnft be al lowed to differ totally with the Noble Lord in thofe refpeas. There was, my Lords, no indecifion, there was no want of fyßem, the inftruetions were not contradiaory ; all the inftrudions were founded on, and terminated in thofe two principles, to neu tralize Spain, if poffible ; or, if that unfortunately mould not be praaicable, to endeavour ea make her i PRICE SIX-PFNCE. a tardy and. unwilling ally. That thefe inftraflions have not been attended with the defired fuccefs, there is no one, my Lords, who more regrets it than I do. I feel [or the unhappy condition of Spain. I know that (he was reluaant to enter into this war; the has been gaaded and driven into it by the refill left tyranny ani overbearing power of France. That Court. my. Lords, was not taken unawares ; the Go r vernment of Spain was fully appriled, and repeat edly forewarned.of thole coorequences which would attend the execution n i f the treaty of St. Ildefonfo. In the , letter of his Noble Friend of the 13th of December, tflo3, it. was pontively declared, that the furnilhing of fuccoors, fuch as had been ad vanced, .could not , be otherwife foundered than as a war, fubfidy. Although the letter, dated the tA of January, tßoa, expreffes that his Majefty's government were unwilling to proceed on that mea fure alone, if fatiladion could be afforded as to other points.; it does not fay they were not to be contidcred as the grounds of war. There is not therefore. any difference, my Lords. between Mr. Freres note of the 3d of March, and my Noble Friend's letter of the st ft of January, as the Noble Earl has enecaeoured to maintain. With relpeet to that other point in the fpeech of the Noble Earl, upon which he has !aid fuch particular flocfs—l allude. my Lords, to the affected iAterruption in the cor relpondence ; I will admit, that it any praftical in convenience refulting therefrom, can be fubflanti ated, it would be a fulfil:lent and powerful caufe of cenfore. But none has been proved, and until the grounds of some filch piaaical inconvenience have been . made out, your Lorelfhips, I troll, will dif i charge his Majeily's government from all blame, cm the bare affLrtion of the Noble Earl, honourable and refpeaable as he is. The Noble Earl feemed inclined to doubt the exigence of any armaments in IFerrol; I can affure the Noble Earl, that the intelli gence of Inch armaments had been received both at London and Madrid, and that it was the certainty of fuch armaments which led to the order for the detention of the Spanifh frigates. Thole arma ments fitted out, my Lords, under the perfidious pretence of convoying troops to Bifeay, were in themfelves, independent of other confiderations, upon which no fatisfaetion had or could be obtain.. ed, a fofficient caufe of war; and the intelligence upon which the knowledge of Inch armaments was founded, has never been difputed, and remains mi. quegioned to this day. The detention of thole (hips is therefore to be charged, nut upon his Majelly's Miniilers, but upon the Court of Madrid, which was perfidioutly engaged in fitting out thofe armaments in the port of Ferrol, under a pretence, not founded in truth. But, my Lords, is there any novelty in fuch detention? Is this a new cafe, or is it one which has ever been retorted to before ? Thole " mild 'neonates of hoilility," as the Noble Lord farcalli cagy terms thew, are not new in the hiflory of this country. This is not the firft time in which fuch proceedings have been retorted to. When that No ble Lord was at the head of the Admiralty, an order to a fimilar effea was iffued by him, and aeted upon. The Dutch flips. before any hogilities had been de clared between the two countries, were detained, and feveral of them Oink in being compelled to keep up with the convoy by which they had been detained. The detention of the Spanilh frigates, therefore, was not a folitary precedent, but one of which there were frequent examples in the naval praftice of the coun try. lam lorry, my Lords, to trelpafs fo much (a loud cry V . hear! hear!) upon your attention, but conlidering the thane I have had in this negociation, I thought my telf called upon to reply at confider able length to the obfervations of the Noble Lord who has m'eed the amendment. It, my Lords, as I have laid before, there was ever a jugitiable caufe of war, a caufe which could fcarcely admit of a doubt, much more a difference of opinion, it will be found in the conduit of Spain. To no reprefentation which had been made to the Court of' Madrid, ex cepting that refpeaing the fale of prizes, has the finalleit attention been paid. Spain was required to difcontinue her armaments ; this the did not do. She was required to communicate the terms of that con vention which the had laft entered into with France; this (be either evaded, or when tirongly preffed to it, peremptorily refuted to do. She was required, not to permit the entrance of French troops into her territory ; in defiance of this, the French (hips of war, which were blockaded in the port of Ferrol, were recruited through Spain, and enabled by the reinforcements fir obtained, to contend with the lqua dron by which that harbour was csbCerved. I will, notwithflanding the irnmerife difference of opinion between the Noble Lord and me, adroit that it is difficult not to agree with him in this one point, that the detention of the Spanifh (hips could not be well confidered as other than an aft of hnitility. There is, however, lfrong ground, my Lords, upon which that aft can be justified. The time was, or had nearly arrived, when France would no longer Puffer Spain to enjoy the advantages of that neutra lity, which, upon certain conditions, his Nlajefly's Minitlers were difpofed to admit. No, my Lords, that would by no means fuit with the ambitious views of that power ; her own means being crip pled or ezhaufted, the wanted to pullet's her fell of the naval power of Spain, and the was reeking for pretexts to feize it, when the found that her nett :rainy would be no longer beneficial to her. My Lords, I lament that the Noble Earl has fiigmatifed the carafes of the war in the manner he has done. The people Of this country will not exert themfelves in the manner that their fpirit and loyalty would induie them to do : if they are not perfuaded of the jullice of the war, they have moral feelings, and thole feel ings mull be confulted and fatisfied, berme the go vernment can expea to derive the full effea of their zeal and patriotifm. I than therefore, my Lords, oppote the amendment of the Noble Earl, which g oes in my mind materially to clog the war. It would be in vain to fay, that we either fupport his Majelty, or the code in which he is engaged by adopting it." [Turnover