Star. — London, England, 1815-04-28 00:00:00

who should . joist/im— joined faction" were the words;—anti that would necessarily refer to"the framers of the New Constitution, the principal ar ticle of which would be the voting ot the Empire to Bonaparte. These persons were, in the spirit of the Declaration, consideied as outlaws. They all remem bered the dreadful words of the Declaration, and it Was most essential their Lordships should know the construction put upon it by his Majesty's Government. —Could any man read the Declatetion and hve the least deubt that it did not pledg e us to use ' every effort for the restoration of the King of France ? With reference to the prominent consideration and apparent objects of the Treaty, it was important to consider the tenor and import of the subsequent De claration issued on the part of the Prince Regent. — 'net instrument referred principally to the 3d article of the Treaty, and the principles are adverted, upon which it says the British Government had invariably regulated its conduct. Upon this a plain explanation was most desirable. Did it mean to state, that the mere destruction of Bonaperte's person was the object of the war, or deemed sufficient to secure the tree quality of Europe ? Suppose the contingency of Bonaparte being set by France, and the Supreme Power vested in such men •as Lucien Bonaparte, Massena, or Carnot—would it be understood that the danger was then at an end ? Was it even in their contemplation that such a contingency may prove one of still greater danger instead of security ? How did these considerations refer to the views of not im posing upon France any particular Government ? On these detailed considerations he would have to request the Noble Lord, either now, or on some future day, for distinct explanations. His principal wish now was to know, what the principal object of entering into the war was ? Did it merely extend to Bonaparte, or to all who 'here connected nil)] li . m . ? —Much did he wish the conduct of the Ettrupeen Princes had been such as not to excite wishes in seve. ral parts of the Continent favourable to that man ; the state of Saxony was particularly to be deplored ; and it was now known that the Russian Government were obliged to have recourse to force, in order to repress actual insurrection at Dresden in favour of Bonaparte. At least, he trusted the hope might still be entertained, that the Allies, upon their view of the actual state of things, would be led to reconsider these resolutions they had too hastily formed in their intoxication. • The Earl of LIVERPOOL observed. that with respect to the proposed motion of the Noble Lord, it would he for him to determine whether he should bring it forward or not. With respect to any pro ceeding cn the part of his Majesty's Government on the subject to which the Noble Lord alluded, he had only to repeat his answer on a former occasion, that until the negociations at Vienna Were reduced into a shape, in which the result could be regularly brought before Parliament, of course no communication thereon would be made. The Noble Lord stated his intention to put some questions on the subject of the Treaty, but had taken the opportunity to accom pany these questions with a speech of coasidcrable length against the princiele and provisions of that Treaty. He knew not, however, whether he (Lord Liverpool) could regularly enter into any thing like a discussion upon these points until the instrument itself should be brought forward in a regular shape ; 'but there were some points u hich tell from the Noble Lord which he could not allow to pass without ob rvation. First, he would obs e rve upon the igiplied charge of a breach of gcod faith in not having brought forward the Treaty at the time the Address was proposed. The first remark lie had to make on this was, that there was nothing in the transited( n of that Message, or that Address, which could call for the production of the Treaty, even if it could have been regularly produced at the time, which, from the nature of the transaction, was obvious that it could not. It his Majesty's Government had sought 'to entrap Patliament into an opinion upon the ques tion of War, the case wculd have been differeut.— But what was the *hole scope of the proceeding ? A Message was communicated to Parliament, im porting, diet in consequence of an event which afforded a justifiable cause of war, the Prince Regent had decmee it advisable to order an increase of his forces both by sea and land ;. and, that he was in a course of communication and negocietion with his Allies. How in sueli a case could it be said, their Lordia:ips were called upon to give an opinion upon Cie question of Peace or Van—a question which would necessarily as well as avowedly depend upon the deterrninetion the Allis 'night make upon the v•pics in negotiation ? They were only called upon by that Address to approve the precautionary mea tures of arming that had bren taken, and the propo sition of an arrangement in concert with our Allies. —The shades of difference of opinion which then, obtained, were upon di ff erent points from those which arose out of the Address; but all were unani mous in agreeing that it was advisable to arm, and to enter into arrangements in concert with our Allies. yarliament was not pledged to an iota beyond those two views. The Address had been cautiously con fined to points That did not depend upon the Treaty. There existed, therefore, not the least necessity to bring forward that instrument at the time, seven if it could regularly have been brought forward, though it would have been the height of criminality in Mini sters not to have put the country into some state of preparation. Bat, in addition, there were some very essential circumstances that rendered it the imperious duty of his Majesty's. Government not to commu nicate the Treaty. He wished, however, to state geaerally, that the principle held by the Prince Re gent was, it was an European question as well as a British question; and that a great deal must neces sarily depend neon the condect of the They were therefore bound to consider what were the general dispositions of the Allies upon the subject; • and the circumstances under which the Treaty was signed, were very different from thcse which existed at the time the Treaty was received in - this country by the Executive Government. At the time of its signature little was known of the state ct things, par ticularly of the arrival of Bonaparte at Paris ' • but it certainly was believed at the time that the King was still in France, and had a considerable party ap parently attached to him at the time. All he would say, therefore, an that point was, that it would not be fair in the view of the Allies to have laid such an engagement of that kind before Parliament and the Public, when it might well be said by them, that circumstances were Illouglit tO have been very' difie! rent at Ai time they :iglu's! 'the Treaty, and that liter had altered much nacire at the time when you (the British Government) received the Treaty that you should have given ys an opportunity of recon- sideririg it while. it was in an unratified state. The principle of such a proceeding under the special cir cumstances of thE case, would be a most unfair one with respect to the Allies, (whom every cnie agreed ' in stating we were bound to act in concert with) if they had laid that engagement upon the table of Par liament. He trusted therefore he had said enough to absolve his Majesty's Government from the charge of any breath of faith on the occesinn. (Hear, hear.) But there were some distant contsdciations referable to the Treaty is question, which rendered a peculiar line of conduct necessary. It happened that by some means a 'copy of the instrument in question had been published in the Gazettes of Vienna and Berlin, and afterwards a copy found its way into the newspapers here, with some material inaccuracies. Under these circumstances, and the fact kno w %. that the Treaty was published in an inaccurate she in newspapers here, it was thought right to do that which they ought not to have done, except under the special, cir cumstances of the case. He did not intend to enter at present into any detailed question as to the merits of the Treaty ; but deemed, however, a few words, in answer to a question respecting one of the articles of that Treaty (that in which a reference was said to have been made to the Declaration of the 13th of March), that the engagement was not only. against Bonaparte as an outlaw, but to consider all those who had, or may hereafter join him as the same. On this he begged to be permitted to state on the part of Great Britain and the Allied Powers, that they never had considered the words as hearing such an interpretation as that put upon them by the Noble Lord. The Declaration of the Allies meant to apply to the circumstances under which Napoleon Bona parte entered into France, in vi >latioo of the faith of treaties he had solemnly entered into ; and much of 1 what the Noble Lnrd seemed to refer to, as respect ing the cause of Louis XVIII. appeared to arise from what was stated in the inaccurate copy printed in the newspapers, and which was certainly not in the Article itself ; and no such objects were in the contemplation of the Allied Powers. In fact, he was astonished at the construction put by the Noble Lord upon that part of the real Treaty, as be thought no words could more clearly express their genuine mean, ing. Three leading propositions may be deduced from the Treaty. The first was, the consideration of the existing Government of France as an evil that should Ise got rid of ; secondly, that it was held de• sirable to restore the ancient legitimate monarchy of 'France if practicable ; but this should not be con sidered as a sine gua non ; and, thiriily, that the Al lies did not embark in war with a view to impose upon France any particular form of Government : nor could any such inference be drawn from the docu ment laid before the House. These were prin ciples upon which the Noble Lord had long acted, as well as himself, and another Lord, not then in his place, under the auspices of a Right Ho nourable Gentleman now no more. They were not wished even by Louis the Eighteenth to enter France upon any other principle, who desired no other but legitimate means to be exerted in his support.. He must pointedly deny either the tenor or the words would bear the construction, that if the government of Bonaparte were destroyed, they were not to make peace with any other that might succeed twhim. What intervening circumstances might take place, must be judged according to the nature of these circum stances, they would act according to all the circum stances, and were not pledged as to any particular point in these respects. The article did not appear to them as pledging us to the support of Louis XVIII. in the way that seemed to be supposed; but it bound them not to make pence but by common consent. It was thought adviiable to invite Louis XVIII.-to accede to the Treaty in the way specified, and it was thought proper that the Treaty should not be ratified, unaccompanied by some explanation, or they might be involved in this dilemma, that they could make peace no other way, except with the con sent of Louis XVIII. '.They were desirous of act ing with good faith towards hinuas to all the Allies ; and therefore they deemed it fair and just that the ratifications should be accompanied by some explana tion on our part, that we may not be precluded from the consideration of whether we should not mike peace on other terms. With respect to'other circum stances it was the wish to leave the arrangement open. The fairest inference he thought could be drawn from a view and connection of the different articles together. He thought these explanations amply sufficient, 'under the circumstances of the case, and was averse to entering into any discussion upon points not before the House, and especially at a time when no discussion whatever was expected. Earl GREY was of opinion that an arrangement of such importance should be communicated to Par liament in the usual form of a Message, accompa. nied by a statement of the views upon which the Prince Regent's Government acted, and not to leave it with Ministers to give more or less explanation as suited their convenience. lie must agree however with the Noble Lord, that the present was not a con venient opportunity for discussing the subject referred to; but one or two observations he deemed it neces sary to make. He certainly felt 'part of what fell from the Noble Earl to be of a satisfactory nature ; but he wishedahat such explanations should rest upon something more stable and secure than the passing words of a Minister. At the same time lie agreed with what fell from his Noble Friend as to the effect of the engagement formed on the spirit of the decla ration of the 13th of March, as implying the per sonal extermination of Bonaparte, though the denial of his Noble Friends in refutation, so far gave him satisfaction. There were, however, some proposi tions which he heard with'alapn, as avowed for the First time by a Minister : he meant what the Noble Lord had said of a principle which he alleged had long been supported by his Noble Friend, and another Noble Friend then absent, as well as by himself (the Earl of Liverpool) the principle of putting an end to the existing government of France, and which must so far be regarded as an insurmountable obsta cle to peace, understanding the Noble' Lord to re gard it as a sine qua non, if made applicable in the present case. If that principle had been acted upon in a former war, he must say that such a principle was never avowed ! While a Member of the other House, he had, during that war , bfongbi f orward a proposition, which brought that quest(n to an issue: 1 he meant that of the object of the war being for the destruction of the existing government of nance, and which proposition Mr. Pitt, with all his powur, did not undertake to negatiie.. Hrregretted hearing any such proposition now advanced, that no peace was to be made with the present government of Prance, aslnvolving a principle every way unjusti fiable to commit the interests of the counts y to a war. Upon the whole, he deemed the present state of af fairs to be such as to render it imperative upon the Prince Regent's Ministers, to make a different and regular communication thereon speedily to Parliament. The Marquis WELLESLEY spoke shortly in ex planation, and expressd himself satisfied with a p irt of what had fallen from the Noble Earl, especially as it was not intended to act against the ptesent ruler of France, or his adherents, in the spirit of the de claration of the 13th of March. With respect to the alleged principle upon which he and a Nehle Lad then absent was alleged by the Noble E ail to have long acted upon in a fowler war with France, he must publicly disclaim it ; and it was agreed, as well as upon that of the principle wf.ich was now said to be acted upon with respect to France ; upon which he would readily meet the Noble Earl in discussion at any time. The Earl of DARNLEY, in the course of a few observations upon the subject, expressed his opinion, that the principle referred to was one that well me rited a distinct discussion on the part of the House. The Order for summoning their Lordships to morrow, on the Marquis Wellesley's motion respect ing Sax my, was discharged. The Aliens' Regulation Bill was brought tip from the Commons, and read a first time.—Adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS. An Account of Money paid in England and Scotland for the last seven years as Drawbacks upon Paper, were presented. The notice respecting the boundaries of Calcutta and Bombay was adjourned. The Alien Bill W 29 read a third time, and passed. The Highway Amendment Bill was committed.—Report to morrow. General GASCOIGNE gave notice, that be would, to-mor row, previous to the House going into a Committee on the Pr.). perty Act, move a clause, exempting Officers of the Army and Navy on foreign service from the Tax. The Foreign Copper Duty, and Sco.ch Hawkers, Bills, were committetE—Report to-morrow. The Report of the Exchequer Bells Bill was received, and the Bill ordered to be read a third time to-morrow. Lord NUGEN r said, he understood from good ate hori'y that there were great deficiencies at present existing In the manning of the ships which had recently sailed to job the Scheldt fleet, and those ships at present in America. Mr. CROKER said, there never was a ship sent to a foreign station with an incomplete crew. Such was the case w:rli the American squadron. Jill the crews were complete let nent;:..r With respect to the Scheldt fleet, he could nut say that every ship had its full complement, but the, were not considered as on a foreign station. Lord NUGENT expressed his surprize that, ships %tat ;bed on an enemy's coast, watching the Scheldt and the l'extl, sh..tild not be considered as on ;t forcirt station. Mr. CROKER said the head-quarters of that rl -et was in the Downs. Lord NUGENT then moved fur a return of the number of men on board the ships upon the American stattoa, between the 6th`April and 6th July last, distinguishing each weekly return. Mr. CROK ER could pot agree to this motion ; as he could not undertake to say the crews were now coniplte, though they were at the time of the ships going out ; they might now be in complew from casualties, Gr from detachments sent on board prizes. He had ns objection to the Noble Lord% moving foe the return of the numbers at the time each ship sailed. I.ord NUGENT then shaped his ntottott accordingly, and it was agreed to. Mr. PONSONBY gave notice that In would, on Tuesday se'n night, submit a motion to the House on the sui•jr!ct of Saxony. GENOA. Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH cease to bring for ward his motion on the subject of Genoa, and ht' hoped for the last time ; as lie trusted the Honse would now be put in possession of all the i,,feet ma. tion which had hitherto been withheld. On looking over the Papers already laid before the Howe, Le was at a loss to know upon what grounds these Pa pers had been withheld, when called for, on the '27th of February ; or when again called for, on the return of the Noble Lord. He (Sir James Islackintosh) , however, had lost no time in bringing this subject un der the consideration of the Hou,e, and gi vitig th. Noble Lord an opportunity of justifying himself. it he could. Though he must ct.nless, that notwith standing the able defence which had been made I it the Noble Lord in another place—and one more elo quent or ingenious he did not think the N-able Lord could make for himself—he could net but consider the question of Genoa as one in which the hitherto unspotted honour of ,Great Britain had been commit ted. Committed by the Minister at Vienna, in his consent to the partition of the Genoese territory—a partition carried into effect by British troops, lie should not now enter into the question how la the spectacle which we hid recently seep, of a Minister of State travelling over the Continent of Europe, car rying with him the Crown and Sceptre of Great Bri tain, was constitutional? or whether the complaints which the Noble Lord had thrown out against his opponents for the questions they bad put we:e well founded ? He could feel, that to the N .ble Lind, who had so long moved in the smooth au ! dished circle of diplomatic society, the rough hlulitite,ls of a free and popular assembly must be trouble,ome ; but it was to that bluntness the gleatte:ss of this country was owing, and without it the presence to freedom . would be a mockery. Having said this much by way of introduction, he should now proceed as shortly as he could to state what was his complaint as to the conduct which had been adopted towards Genoa ; and next he should make some obs-rvations oil the general conduct of Congress, as respected the Italian States, and Genoa in patticular. The Hon. , urable Gentleman then proceeded to comment on the Pro. clamation of Lord William Bentinck, in which it was stated that the Itati in Slates were to be teitored to their original state, as Spain now was. Did not that convey to the Italian States that they should be restored to the same stare as before the war? and was this to be done by giving Genoa to the king of Sar dinia ? That the Proclamation of Lord Wm. Ben thick did intend to convey to the Genoese the opi nion that they were to be restored to their former in dependence, and that it was se understood by the Ge noese, no one could doubt. This was plain from the conduct of Lord Wm. Bentinck ; for had not that been the persuasion of :hat Noble Lord; and had he not been convinced that in consequence of that per suasion he would be received and aided by all the Italian States, would he have dared to have pro ceeded with a force of only 8000 men, and not more than 3000 of them English. to Genoa, where there was a g trrison of ":000 .French And upw pf, had mole inquiry of military then, and had b.fen in formed, that unlexs there had been full confidence tit c►►-operation from the inl►sbit.tnts, no Comtnat,.? : , could have undettalttm such an expedition As that Lord to 'take giisscs%inii of mot with lcbs than 10,000 men.. Thti Hon. B n•).,e• then proceeded to state several othec circiinist.4l44.*: to prove Chet it was this expi•itAtion• oil tile p:trt the Ge.ineK wttich induced diem .to aid the plAtis Lord W. lleatinck,and which tilzimately ni..de Lin succ..s.dzil. The -next question whyther Bentinck was authorize:l i. issuing Pr.,4 f rnation he had done ? by the instructions given him by MArquis Wellesley, in 1811, Lord W. Be,, tir.,:k was autlorized to alF►rd aid to any of the 1: ii.+•► States in their rising. Whic, he wool,' ask, t;!ere to prevent the &gm (if these t ) the Genc):l6:, on taiga t-o.session of that cis 1 i hi 1 ? kicr d, the inArtictions ta 1., llithurst t:► Lord W. Bzutitick in 181::, is o:dered to take possession of Gaina in the I I , the King of Sardinia ; but tin. .v,s wily t In. ,• 1. case the Genoese were fun fitly dispnsed to . ,n me.isure. These instructions, ttierefOre, give hill, power so to take possession of Genoa, unless tli: f: noose were willing ; and v.ere, iU ftct, 1101,i1.; ! 113• fl •han a strengthening of the instruction...d lington to Lord W. Bentlock, given't ini is i••I I. • 'flre Honourable Baronet then adverted tp. us, T r , of Chaumont and to the Declaration 1.1 which he considered as Lord W. Bentinck% instructions, and contended that he could p“., r wise construe these but as sanctionin4 ell w li:t;. h•td held out to the Genoese with respect tt) 4"t! . It• t-rs of the Noble Lord (Castlereagh) to 1. , .rd Beatinck, t 4 which he bad alluded, and from he had :cad extracts. They were not instruction , . i the past, but dir , ctions tor the future. If, after ta Treaty of Chaumont, circumstances had arisen whiz:. made the Allies determine on the sacrifice f Genui why was not this made known to the Genoese in the Treaty of Paris, signed on the 30th of May ? Tier regolations respecting other States of the Confine. were made public on this occasion. AVily n,t the,- mention the determination respecting Genoa, is W au that of other States ? This silence in the Ttec ) of Pat is was another inscmce of deception toward. the Genoese. If the Genoese had not sent A pens to I)3iii, it night, and rerbapi would have h2en that the Geiwc , ,e Aid nut at all' lAy on the Pr.•cl tnation tf Lord William B:ntiuck ; but thee e send their Representative there to, remind the N Lord of that Proclii"mntion. Bet. it was Low e. that the Genoese. acceded to the traesfe of t: territory to Piedmont; because they had iestriee , the Deputy still to attend, alter the kl,!terria larion give up Genoa to his Majesty the I;:n . e 01 s Te e Was it an ocknowledgmeut that Goa. content, becatise they instructed thoir t.:ini•tcr taitt the best 'elms they caul.' ? Wizh to !..• policy of this measure, it was said, that it was a cessary step to put the whole line ,if the :•11. , 111 of Alps into the pesses . sion if a power av!:a t • hold the key a that lioe of frontier. i Mackintosh) had every respect for the Cori: t mont, but it was fully to talk of lee - being .t 1 . • • 4. Capable of holding this key, since at the vets t that the Noble Lord (Castlereagh) tva: • Piedmont on tl.c side of the Alps, he w.ts her the greatest part of Savoy, and brie . nearer to hely '.n that side ; but be t a ...• policy of the measure out of the qineei . was it a measure of necessity ;asn" t! t: - I strongest necessity could justify this stee, 1: called the faith and honour of the counti i . ;:. ire • t But, according to the Noble Lord's d 4cii , Congress lied the power of conquest eve: a e of teteitory, containing 12 or 13 millions pis which they were to me'e mit, and moister as thought fit. The ancient ind.pendence Eit; • Was atrtcted by tl:e 4pirit of the peon le ; ald by co ti l'inations of the smaller ravels a.taint,t. tt , e pbwerful, .as well es by their detesttti. c of torei invasion. In ancient Europe a nunibt:r of lee: communities existed, becsuse they were dete..ded a the pnwertol. Du: the new system we :s, that we w. not to tepid any miserable :.trt•,:tion of any to their native soil. Front the time at the Reform . tion, to the partition of Poland, ssoul.t fetidly ad' an instance at any single State being oblitela as to its indellendence. But the mole:, sy WAS to regard minor Slates only as th: lII.' .° of extending this line, or stiengtheleng Li,.,: —One of the tundaniental errors of de. •licti volution was, that Governments and Cini Adel, : . were the works cf the people, not eon ie • they were the growth at ages. The last renew. Of the ancient small States of Italy, that taileal Western World: civilization by cominvree, wa, a annihilated by the great powers of Euro . pe. N.' that knew France during the last year, and tills, • of the people, hut mu s: know, that eteey timi . ; ' Noble Lord (Cestlereegh) set his hand to t;,e J.•- mints of Vienna, he was as often 11.1;,..ing. the 1 , .1! the unfortueste House of Bourbon. Ile tt,e the Housl to consider, that in the emits of Me 4 . about . to be commenced, there might be sinidAr 1 ; eitioni of partition itniimg the remaining States turope ; and tsAS it then improper for this 11. i e. to advise the Clown, and also our Allies, en • great suhjeet ?He then moved a string el " Lions, embracing the hots at t4l..;ng poseesi;:a Genoa by our arms, and afterwards tratehe rite: t• 6tate to the Kieg of Sardinia and that in vt , 'L , of 'the Prod 'mations of Lord W. Bentinck, the honour of this country. The couduct of jesty's Government was a manifest breach te.th in trAnsfeirilig Genoa to the Crown of 50.141”' Mr. C. C RANI.' said, he coincided in .11! the ,•:]• timents of 0 su''nal Leith and honour whicn .• ' nourable Meyer had expressed t but he did lee 1 .- tide with him in . his deductions. He hearni expressions of veueratioo for ancient Seitot verament with the more pleasure, tvcause 111 , 4 rather extraordinary on that side of the House. I trusted that io. the war in wii,ch we might be B his Honourable Ftiend would express same eeheratiiin ter Ancient etitAbitblneitts ••!.4:'- that.person who was the avowed enemy 01 311 institutions. He could see nothing in the instraeos • to Lord William Peeitinck from lard ~ti he down to ISIS, that piedged Lerd Walton tinek to declare the independence of ll' merely to enquire into the general spirit c : the t i ee of Italy, as to their bsatitictioa LA I • 41 11 , I. I r • I • i • •