Star. — London, England, 1818-03-18 00:00:00

lIPw -- . un der the Statute of the alst of the Bing, to quent Irish Statutes, with similar specifications. Hit' d into the Jail. The Court unanimously agreed in reason for moving for these Papers was, that the r i op inion. The Jailer was . called in and admo- , House might see to what extent the union of Parishes c ried; ; and told that the Magistrates . considered they , in consequence of the increase of Pasturage, had been tic ! a right to visit the Jail. The Jailer applied for ' carried. When this state of things changed, and a k a re to write to the Secretary of State. This was great conversion from pasture land to tillage took w e d, and an hour given to hint for his determina- place, the religious worship of the country required in at the expiration of which period he said he . different measures. aid let them in. He (Lord Folkestone) thought • question was then set at rest ; but a month after ds he was told that the Jailer persisted in his re to admit the Magistrates. A few days before next Quarter Sessions he (Lord Folkestone) called the Jail and required admittance, but was refused, and a letter of Lord Sidmouth's an d shewn to him. He was then on his way to town, when he arri- T ed there had an indictment drawn against the Jailer. /darn ing to the Quarter Sessions, he there made other complaint. He found on the Bench an un 'anted number of Magistrates. Gentlemen were , re who were not at all in the habit of attending. ! leant that they had come for the purpose of re rain t he order of the last Court. As the Jailer rd u sed to obey the unanimous order of the Court, ore servant he was, it was the duty of the Court, the m aintenance of their character and dignity, to c notice of that refusal, and that notice was only suspend him until the trial of the indictment in s oon , . That this was the least which the Court of .3r.er Sessions could do, it was his opinion then—it is his opinion still. As to the publication of the ~dons in the Newspapers, he had voted against as d, with respect to the names of the Magistrates toted against the Resolutions being attached .to , the Honourable Gentleman who had made , ; at charge ought to know, that when any Resolu ans passed at a Court of Quarter Sessions ire pub %hest the names of the Magistrates present always receded them. There was no past of the whole roc eeding he felt the least ashamed of , or th at he aold not go over again under the same circumstances. Mr. S. BOURNE and Lord FOLKESTONE mu wally :plained. Lord VoLKESTONE then obtained leave to trith w his Motion. SAVING BANKS. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the Saving Banks Act. The object of the Bill was to ob viate several difficulties which had been found in car rying the Act into execution—for instance, it re quired an order to receive the principal, and another order to receive the interest. The present Bill would authorize general orders for both principal and inte rest. During the recess, Gentlemen would have op portunities of becoming acquainted with other diffi culties which it might be proper to remedy. He congratulated the House and the country on the esta .blishment and rapid progress of the Saving Banks. Their growth was far beyond expectation, and would have given great delight and satisfaction to the au thor of the measure, hnd he lived to witness it. It would possibly surprize the House to learn that, from a paper in his hands, it appeared that since the 6th of August last, when the operation of the Bill com menced, to the 11th of March, 1818, no less a sum than 657,0001. had been deposited in Saving Banks —(Hear, hear).—He concluded with moving for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the said Act. General THORNTON objected to the extravagant rate of interest. If the rate of interest was 1/. Ils. 3d._ per cent. instead of 41. 11 s. 3d. per cent. it would be equally the same to the lower orders—(A laugh).— They wished to have their money secured ;—he had had great experience of the lower orders, and he had always found they had a great aversion to interest. Sir JOHN NEWPORT thought the proposition of the Honourable Gentleman, as to the indifference of the lower orders to the rate of interest, required no answer. Any money which this measure might take out of the pockets of the public in the increased rate of interest, would be richly compensated in the increased morality of the lower orders. He felt exceedingly gratified by the manner in which the Chancellor of the Exchequer had lent himself to this measure. Mr. BABINGTON thought the Public would be repaid by the improved morality of the lower orders, but there was some danger lest persons of an impro per class might avail themselves of Saving Banks.— He belonged to one from which all but servants, mechanics, and other persons in the same rank of life had been excluded ; but it was astonishing how many persons in a superior rank endeavoured to avail them selves of it. One Gentleman possessed of above 40,000/. wished to put in money in the names of his six children. He knew of many other instances. He thought the Chancellor of the Exchequer would do well to provide in this Bill that the lower orders alone could be benefited by it. . Mr. THOMPSON knew that persons of the upper ranks of life put in 100/. in the names of their chil dren, and having placed money in one Bank they would go to a neighbouring Saving Bank, 15 miles off, and do the same thing. The Country Bankers who could get money at 21 and 3 per cent. were often told by persons how much more they could get from saving banks. A power of discrimination ought to be given. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER then obtained leave to bring in the Bill, and afterwards moved for an Account of the Sums vested in the Saving Banks of England and Scotland, up to the lth of March, 1818. ADJOURNMENT. Lcrd CASTLEREAGH gave notice, that vo x-I^w he should move that the House adjourn to ;e nd of April nett. It was thought advisable that adjoumment should be longer than usual at this le, on account of the Quarter Sessions. Mr. SHAW LEFEVRE suggested the propriety 'a still longer adjournment. Lord CASTLEREAGH said there was some very mt business, which rendered it desirable that the ournment should not be for a longer period. There as a motion, and only one, of a Noble Lord, which ,d for Thursday ; if that Noble Lord's motion Id be disposed of, he should propose the adjourn for to-morrow. - ZDUCATIOW. Mr. BROUGHAM moved for leave to bring in a ll to appoint Commissioners to inquire into the • in Charities connected with Education in Eng _ and Wales. Mr. T. COURTENAY asked if it was not the in of the Honourable Gentleman to extend the try to all Charities? qr. BROUGHAM said, he was not authorized at to go beyond the Charities connected with cation. But either when the Bill was brought in, lie progress of it, in case it should be thought fit, f small alteration might extend it to all charities. The SPEAKER observed, that it might be found Ticult to alter tne Bill, which ought to concur with Resolution. After some observations from Mr. B. BATHITRST, Witstaroacz, and Mr. BROUOILSJI, leave was rdingly given. OUAULTERS. Mr. BROUGHAM said, he gave notice of a Mo. connected with the Assessed and other Taxes, .te subject of the default of local Officers, but he A deferred it till after the holidays, in consequence a communication with the Right Hon. the Chan lor of the Exchequer. Understanding, however, at he had no objection to the production of the rcular from the Tax Office, of the Ist of December ,he should now move for that paper. He should move fir an account of the particular districts, 4 the defaulters, to which that Circular alluded. The CHANCELLOR ofthe EXCHEQUER stated, at he had no objection to the production of the ircular ; but not being aware of the Honourable and trued Gentleman's intention to move for any thing ! that, he was not prepared at present to agree to his second motion. Mr. BROUGHAM said, he should confine himself ' present to the Circular, but after the holidays he could call the attention of the House to the abuses m the collection of the Assessed Taxes, and to De faulters. He wished, however, at present, to call tse attention of the Right Hon. Gentleman to one branch of Defaulters, through whom great injustice 1441 happened—and he did it that the Right Hon. Gentleman might apply his mind to the subject du rag the holidays. It was a very great hardship that ersons should be exposed to pay their taxes twice , er, from the embezzlement of some Defaulter. In .eral the persons who collected taxes might be said .be chosen, in some degree, by the persons paying res. But this was not always the case, and it was great hardship that persons, who had no controul wet Collectors, should still be liable for Defaulters. alluded particularly to the case of a late Defatal m the Ordnance Department, who had absconded I ;th 20,0001. in his hands ; in consequence many /iirltry and Civil Officers, and, in particular, many 'Tay Officers, had considerable sums to pay over yL These persons had no controul over the ap 4atrnent of this Defaulter, and yet they were liable him. Of all men Half-pay Officers were the least !le to bear such a loss. How this person could be ItTed to have so large a balance in hand, he was 7 ' LOSS V) know ; he hoped it was not through favour. I::e motion, that there be laid before the House a of the Circular Letter from the Tax Office, of ,t cemb.-r, I£+l7, was then agreed to. ; . i . ,1:)!IN NEWPORT moved for an Account of s4seral Unions of Parishes which had been effec ia Irch by the Lord Lieutenant in Council, !!:e Act of .2 George I. and subsequent Irish •• ifying tae dates, names of Parishes uni :ind Di occ:es , and for a similar Account of the she: disunited' 1.7 the Lord Lieutenant in Council, the 'id George L the Ist Gran g e 11. and subse- Outer recedemed ere who w e learnt th , .sing site roused t hose servan the mainn '.e notice a suspend h q uestion. n SesS was his opin .., t alons i • arol, with roted a , the E that charge tions passed lished, the r eded th proceeding would not gi Mr. S. B explained. Lard V an Li.; 3 Lrrd C incer iv: he the 2d of :1 ,e adjourn e, On 2C Mr. SR) ea still 10. Lord CA nt busi atournmer was a mail cod for could be di; tent for to Mr. BAC Bill to app abuses in Cl bad and 11 Mr. T. C . tion of 1 nqutry to , Mr. BA( resent to Education. • .in the pr very mai The SPI a intik to e Resole After so cordingl a Mr. BR n, conn the sub • d defer . : a corm, cedor of 1 b that he 1 Circular ; he sl I also mcv, h'• .d the d The Cl that he , Circular teamed beyond to his sc Mr. 13 d at preset 10 should c in the cc faulters. be atter branch c f. bad hap vh Gentler:l ring the , persons veer, fn sn reral W tebe ch ? tales. 1 a great ▪ over Co Be ailu tr in th r.. vth tie • li‘lt.tri M Ralf-pa h t a•wda. rr.; I (intuit he i ie: him s izle to 'sat a2tmed , 10S! t.:e as t 2: t! I 10 0 S:rj rent t ki 12 e 0 (14 0 ' 41 4% . of ;in vs° Pa:4ln ha Ott 1 NAVY. The Report of the Navy Estimates being brought up, and the first Resolution being proposed, Mr. FORBES wished to call the attention of the Mouse and his Majesty's Ministers to the situation of the Officers of the Navy. When they received pen sions for wounds, these pensions were not granted on the same footing as to wounded Officers of the Army. It was understood by the Order in Council applicable to this subject, that both services were to be placed on the same footing. He had lately seen many in stances of Officers in the Navy receiving for the same wounds considerably less than Officers of a correspon dent rank in the Army. He could see no ground for the distinction. It was a sufficient compliment to the ' Army, to say than it was equal to the Navy. A Post Captain in the Navy, who ranked with a Colo nel in the Army, received only 2.501. a year, when the other received 3001. a year. He wished also to allude to the case of Pursers' Clerks, some of whom, after eleven years service, had been turned adrift without a sixpence. The whole of the persons in this situation amounted to thirty. He complained also of the alteration which had been adopted in the case of Pursers. All the ships had been taken from the Pursers, and they had been put on a very inadequate half-pay. He was sure the House would not regret what was allowed to the Navy. Mr. CHOKER said nothing could be more mis chievous to the Navy than the views of the Hon. Gentleman, if carried into effect. This was not the first time he had introduced this subject to the atten tion of the House ; and it was not now the first or se cond or third time he had been answered. The Hon. Gentleman ought to know something of the state of the two services, and the different advantages enjoyed by each, before he recommended any change with regard to them. It was true a Lieutenant Colonel had 6d. a day more half-pay than a young Pest-Cap tain of the same rank.. But then the Post Captains want on rising without interruption till they were equal to full Colonels, whereas a Lieutenant Colonel remained where he was. For instance, in 1814, there were 200 Post Captains who ranked as Lieute nant Colonels. At that time there were also 1100 Lieutenant Colonels. There was not one of these Post Captains who had not risen to a rank equal to that of full Colonel, whereas there was not one of the 1100 Lieutenant Colonels, who was not still Lieu tenant Colonel. The Honourable Gentleman com plained that all the ships had been taken from the Pursers. But how many of them could have ships ? Not above 400. There were 900 in all ; and so to give ships to 400 of them, he would reduce the other 500 to actual starvation. Pursers were brought up generally to the pen and ink line (a laugh), and, in port, not one of them would live on board their re spective vessels; so • that the pay, which was only about 701. a year, if they did not remain on board,. would really be less than the present half-pay allow ance. Not ohe of them would make the exchange. The old plan of rewarding . Pursers, while it profited them but little, was expensive to the country. The lowest rate of a Purser's half-pay was 3s. a day, which was more than the most of those who had ships before received ; the higher rates were four and five shillings a day. There were no complaints from any one Purser of this arrangement. But with this libe • rality the Admiralty had made a provision for eco nomy, and had determined that no more Pursers should be made till they were reduced to the number of those who would have had ships under the old system. The Honourable Gentleman had next men tioned Midshipmen who had been promoted to be Of called Purser's Clerks. This statement was a bun dle of blunders, and if he had not known from whom it came, he should have attributed it to one of his own countrymen, and the genial influence of the day.— A Midshipman could not be promoted to be a Clerk, for the situation of Clerk was inferior to that of Mid shipman—secondly, there was no such office as Pur ser's Clerk. There were, indeed, persons denomi nated Captains' Clerks, who were not officers, and who had nothing to do with Pursers ; but who kept the Captain's accounts, were appointed and might be dismissed by him, and were the private servants of the Captain, except that an allowance was made for them by the public. It was true that, as they were the only persons in civil employ connected with ships, it was usual to select the Pursers from the most deserving of them ; but they could have no more claim to half-pay than the amanuensis of any Mem ber of that House. He complained of the Honour ! able Gentleman, that with a zeal meritorious in its origin, but mischievous in its effect, he chose to at• tack a Board of Admiralty, which had laboured with lanxiety, diligence, and success, fur the good of the service—which, in five or six years, had done more for the benefit of the Navy, and thence of the nation, than ever had been done in 25 or 26 years before. Mr. MONEY thought the Honourable Gentleman had misapprehended his Honourable Friend. With out wishing to disparage the Army, whose great achievements were so justly the theme of our exulta tion, it must be well known, that unless the Navy had performed those essential parts of the service which had made way for the Army, the latter could never have achieved those triumphs. The Honour able Gentleman then briefly adverted to the glorious naval victories of the last war, and the severe duties of blockading, capturing forts, &c. down to the bom bardment of Algiers ; and inferred, that it must be impossible not to admit that their compensations had been greatly inferior to those of the Army, while no war had been so little productive to them in the fruit ful source of prize-money ; and when the prizes were at last condemned, the profits were chiefly swallowed up by the Agents, and the charges for law. The Honourable Gentleman concluded with passing a high eulogium on the conduct of the Navy before Algiers. Mr. HUSKISSON thought the Honourable Gen tleman who spoke last must have persuaded himself that the House had never before heard of the achieve ments of the British Navy, or that they had been forgotten. But the naval men knew, though they were not in England, that the Houses of Parliament and• the country-recognized their services with feel- I hags of pride, triumph, and gratitude, and had given them marks of their munificence and generosity, as o to the grant of 100,0001. for the victory of Algiers. But they had never looked to any other reward than prize-money, and he was surprized at the Honour able Gentleman's statement on this point ; for if the accounts could be procured, it would be seen that there was no war, nor any three wars together, in the annals of the country, that had been su produc. tive in prize-money as the last. He would maintain that nothing was more false, unfounded, and mis chievous, than exciting a jealousy between the two branches of service, by comparisons between the half-pay, and asserting one was greater than the other. It was the Naval prize-money that afforded, in time of war, the prospect of independence and wealth, while, in the Army, the prize-money was next to nothing. Could the Honourable Gentleman resist an appeal for the increase of half-pay to the Army, if he were now to carry his point in behalf of the Navy ? He concluded with observing, that it must be seen what little ground there was for the assumed grie vances and that it was in vain for Gentlemen who made these charges to disclaim partiality, when they were brought forward, Session after Session, without any ,just foundation. Mr. FORBES, in reply to the Honourable Secre tary, observed, that he (Mr. Croker) must of course be better acquainted with these things than he was, as he was paid for knowing them—(Cries of Order!) He might, however, have saved himself the trouble of the statements he had made, as they were all to, be found in a pamphlet which was generally known, I entitled ‘, Observations on the Claims-of the Navy but only 20001. or 3000/. would make up all the dif-I ference that was asked in equalizing the pensions for the wounded, and this was refused. He denied hav ing made any invidious comparison between the two Services ; and insisted that nothing was more common than for a Midshipman to become a Captain's Clerk, and afterwards a Purser, though lie might not have expressed himself correctly in calling it promotion. He would not then call them Officers, but they were Gentlemen, and well educated. He knew that it was not at all uncommon for a Gentleman to give his opinion in that House on the bringing up of a report; he had exercised this right, and he should continue to exercise it on any occasion he might think proper, as long as he should have the honour of a seat in that House, notwithstanding the haughty tone of the Ho nourable Gentleman (hear, hear,) and Session after Session he would inquire into the case of the Officers who had been wounded, until it should be ascertained what were the jact rights of these meritorious men. The Honourable Gentleman then alluded to the case of a Lieutenant who was in Greenwich Hospital, with the loss of a leg, a thigh, and an eye, and who only received a pension of 911. ss. for the loss of a limb, on account of his being in the Hospital ; while he was entitled to 1821. 10s. for the loss of his limb and eye. But a wounded Officer who held a situa tion in Chelsea Hospital was not thereby deterred from receiving his proper pension. There was the case of Colonel Bedford, at Chelsea, and Sir T. Thomp son, also' at Greenwich, who received 7001. a-year. But if the poor Lieutenant was to be deprived of, half his pension, it would be better for him not to be in the Hospital. He. had no objection to .ad- e mit that the Admiralty hallow I great deal for the Navy ; but it should be setalected that it was only since he (Mr. Forbes) and other gentlemen had begun to talk about the hard case of the Midship men, that upwards of one thousand of them had been raised to the rank of Lieutenants, and they were sa- I tisfied. But the general complaint of the Navy was, that they were not on the footing they ought to be, in comparison with Officers of the Army. All there fore he wished, was, that the Navy should be equally well taken care of. Mr. CROKER admitted, that of course it eras the Honourable Gentleman's right to make any observa tions he pleased upon the subject, at any stage of the proceedings ; but what he (Mr. Croker) had com plained of was, that the Honourable Gentleman had not made those remarks in a Committee—(hear.)-- -He did not think it quite fair that the Honourable Gentleman should come up with his second budget of grievances at a time when the details could not be so well entered into as they might have been on a former stage. He should conclude by stating, as he had before observed, that whenever tile Honourable Member thought proper to bring forward these mat ters, he would be most ready to meet him upon them, and give an account of them most satisfactory, if not to the Honourable Gentleman, at least to the House and the country. The Resolution was then agreed to, as were the other Resolutions of the Committee, except that for granting 800/. towards remunerating the High Bai liff of Westminster for expenses incurred byliim at the Election in 1812. This vote wai, upon the mo tion of the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, ordered to be taken into further cons i derat ion on Monday, the Gth of April. CHURCHES AND CHAPELS. On the Report of the Committee on the subject of the New Churches and Chapels, Mr. A. BROWNE hoped one part of the Bill would be revised : it was that which vested the whole power in the Bishop of removing a Curate. The Honourable Gentleman related a case as one in point, of a Curate in his parish who had refused the use of his pulpit, for a Charity Sermon for the support of the Sunday School, whose conduct was nine months undecided on, by the case being taken from the con troul of the Rector. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER trust ed it would be felt how much more proper it would be to enter into minute details at a future time. 13ut with respect to the case alluded to, as the law now stood, the Rector could not remove his Curate wi:h out the consent of the Bishop. The only difference in the intended Act would be, hat a Rector having more than one Curate in a Chapel, might remove one of them to a different one, where lie would be come stationary. Mr.CHLRLES GRANT expressed his satisfaction at the statement made on a former night by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that it was the inten tion of Government to extend the measure to Scot , - land also. The parishes in that part of the kingdom were so extensive and the population so thinly scat tered, that it was impossible all the inhabitants could have access to the parish church. This was an evil which ought, and he rejoiced to find was intended, to be remedied, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, in answer to the Honourable Gentleman, said, he was hippy to repeat, that there could'be no indisposition on the pirt of Ministers to recommend to the Home to extend its liberality to the North as well as the South parts of the kingdom. He was not, however, prepared to state any plan that could be offered for the support of the Church of Scotland ; but the sub ject should be taken into that immediate considera tion which its exigency appeared so imperiously to demand. When it was recollected what large sums he had been granted by the munificence of Parliament for the improvement of roads, the making of canals, and ether commercial facilities in the northern parts of the kingdom, he was sure the House would not feel less desirous of affording assistance to promote and extend the still more important objects of mo rality and religion, particularly when it was known what large districts were without places of worship. been generally misunderstood in one part of what he had said yesterday. It had been supposed, he had said, that no assistance was intended to be afforded to any place in which the inhabitants did not amount to 10,000. He had said no such thing. It was in tended that the Commissioners should have a general power to afford aid in any way they may think will produce the most immediate good. But, it should be kept in mind, that the grant would very rarely af ford considerable assistance to large parishes, unless a great deal were done by parochial contributions and the liberal aid of individuals. Mr. WILBERFORCE was confident, that even if the measure were considered one of dry calculation, it would be admitted that the public money could in no way be so well expended as in that proposed. In answer to a question from General THORNTON, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it was net intended to propose any division of a pa rish for a civil puipose ; but that the King in Coun cil, on the representation of the Commissioners, :led with the consent of the Patron of the parish, should have the power of dividing the parish into two parts, for ecclesiastical purposes only ;—that in the second case, the King should also have the power of dividing into what are called District Parishes ; but that the incumbent of the original parish would retain the whole of his power. A third point was, that certain parishes should have one or more chapels of ease, to be raised by the extension of the Parlia mentary grants. But these three objects were all dis tinctly pointed out in the Bill. The Resolution for granting the 1,000,0001. of Ex chequer Bills waithen agreed to. The various other Orders of the Day were then agreed to, and the House adjourned. An unusual occurrence took place on Sunday last at Chatham Church during Divine Service : As soon as the Minister had concluded the publication of the banns of marriage, a gentleman from the country, is was understood nearly thirty miles distant, gave no tice of his objection, and forbade the banns in respect of a certain couple asked. Thtl ptrties are both mi nors, and had sought out thilt lio 4 u:ons parish, con ceiving that they atould thereby eceive their parents and relatives ; and they had nearly. accomplished their object, for it uas the third time of C 4, 1 • ~ • i .i , t • , li s il ' I ' • 1 t 'l i sw 1 4 '..). l ' 1 7 . • 1 , 1 , . , ,_'. N , I ') i 1 t ' 1 i ' I ' r• 1 ti p • 4 . 1 • i i l 1 t .' '1 4 • •, 4 i t i • i• i , ti 41 i ! I ' , 1 . N td iii i 1 ii , t t n I - . f . • , it , ; i ll 14. • I • , a v ~ • ' r . - 4 1I ` 1 . 1 1 ' ' .. ' i t a L i l l l 4 '' i ' t 1 1 • ... . .