Star. — London, England, 1818-03-04 00:00:00

. 3 pp-ar ia the ourt of ng's B p ench, which d:tgl t ,.v had done. Unless, C therefore, these persons were -eive the usu al notice of trial within a certain an ,er o f days before the Sessions , they wo ul d not b e , bound to aNET ppear. Mr. BEN replied that this was no answer to question. He would pat it plainer, by asking whether he did not feel it to be his duty to dis , these persons from their recognizances, after tree acquittals of Mr. Hone ? ATTORNEY -GENERAL had no objection :a an answer. He should not feel it his duty to eze the recognizances of any of those persons have published any of such blasphemous and in as libels as those for which Hone was tried.--7 'le should proceed to prosecute those per seas another matter ; but he should not forego d ut y is to what appeared to him to be „ t he person charged with having published lib e ls in another place had been acquitted by a ,_for he had known it happen, that the offence ogi publications had not been equally considered different Juries ; and therefore it did not follow such publications by other people should entitle to have their recognizances discharged, be t one publisher had been acquitted. He did not to make any reflection on the conduct of the who had acquitted Hone, or on their verdict, question of libel or no libel was so much a of difference of judgment, that he was not because one Jury thought those parodies libels, another might not think quite the re , There were many circumstances that might weighed on the minds of Hone's * Jury. It was id, that after certain persons had told him the )lications were improper, he had stopped them.— : did it follow, that men vending the same horrid .tgs in defiance of the prosecution going on against one, and even courting prosecution while selling it disgusting peson at the corner of every street, to be deemed to have committed no outrage tint religion and morality, because Hone hap ;ened to be acquitted ?--( War, hear.) He had no oration in saying, that he did not think it his duty abstaia from similar prosecutions, because Hone iad been acquitted—(krar, hear, hear.) But whether s:Jould do it in the individual cases alluded to by Honourable Gentleman, was another question.— had certainly removed the petitioner's case by tiorari into the Court of King's Bench, because he not think it would be just towards the indivi il to let him be tried before the Quarter Sessions, he had brc ught to trial him whom he considered the princip;:l. Mr. LYTTLETON was glad to have this oppor ity of declaring the detestation and abhorrence in ich he held those blasphemous production's. The et ought not to alter the opinion of any man ; I if he had attended earlier in that House, he ,f ,d have felt it his duty to contribute his mite anis correcting the mischief that had been done _ . verdicts th — ose Juries had given. The petition . contain fit matter for inquiry ; for if the alle- AS were true, they reflected the greatest disgrace the Government. He held it to be sound law, r. those men who had contributed to circulate such ,ctions might be prosecuted, and verdicts given them, but he would say, with regret, that he eyed the effect of farther prosecutions would be -to aggravate than decrease the evil. But he state prosecutions that had been so uncoil- anally ad . opted, and under which people were ing. How far those questions might weigh the Indemnity Bill, about to be brought for he could not determine ; but he thought them - thy, and he hoped would undergs, the most se consideration of the House. Mr. BROUGHAM quite agreed with his Hon. - 1 in his opinion respecting those infamous and Ming publications, and also in not wishing to any remark disparaging to the Juries. But if had been on tho s e J ur i es , un d er a ll t h e circum - of the prosecution, he should have felt him ..ad to return the same verdict—(hear, hear.) had no choice left them but acquittal, though might have disapproved of the publications ; for considered that the prosecutions were political ; that if ten times as much blasphemy had been educed, if it were possible, in publications on the er side of the question, there would have been no isecutions. The Juries considered that they served cause of religion much better than those prose t'icrs did, by expressing their unequivocal disap ration of any attempt to make religion a cloak such prosecutions—(hear, hear, hear.) The Ho ,urable Gentleman then alluded to other parodies, ich he considered s till more di sgust i ng an d offen which were published when the Noble Lord me and his colleague came into office, and were circulated immensely under the special of those ve r y p ersons , b ut f or w hi c h t h ere no prosecutions, because they were directed IA the politi ca l antagon i sts o f t h e wr i ters. He wished that the same measures had been dealt at all times to all men. Lord CASTLEREAGH really could not suffer h observations to pass without otTering some rents upon them. He must protest most strongly the doctrine that had been promulgated re lag Juries : nothing was more liable to, or de ing of animadversion ; for never was a doctrine 41 more fatal to the principles of justice, than a Jury, acting on their oaths, were to travel out the question, and enter into political motives for verdict (hear, hear, hear.) He had never heard eloctn.ie so contrary to the laws, or su fatal to tranT.iillity of the country—if it were possible it could receive any sanction beyond the opinion !le Honourable Gentleman (hear, hear.) BA 6 :01), of Juries having a right to set themsel ;Is political partizans, was most dangerous ; and the Honctrable Gentleman were to reflect on the of such an opinion, it must contribute to hen in his own estimation, as such conduct on pia of Juries would be a high offence against cranny. The blasphemies kr which the trials !.:11,,(:1 place were employed to corrupt the minds who had not the capacity to resit them, t); the pm rose of et - adi.-:ating all respei t for re " breast!. If h; - : could remember any Of tllo,e parodies on which the Hotiourahle had commented, he thought they had not aki , lrLsK , d to the lower orders of the people, thne clas.•e , -. whose minds could not he affcc " "%1 consents. But it was against a doctrine so monstrous and dangerous as that which had been delivered that hs must protest. .• . . _ . Mr. BROUGHAM replied, that the doctrine against which the Noble Lord so vehemently pro- 1 tested, was no doctrine of his ; but his doctrine was, that the Jury had been placed in such a situation that they could do no otherwise than they did. Mr. WILBERFORCE did not wish to judge at all of the motives of the Jury: He was utterly Ignorant of the libels, having never read them. He alluded to the prosecution for the publication of the second part of the Age of Reason, in proof of his opinion, that it was not likely such prosecutions could tend to increase the circulation of the libels; as those libels were, before the prosecutions, in such a degree of circulation, that it was not possible to extend them, but after it had taken place, this circulation stopped. After paying many compliments to the Attorney- General for his conduct, the Honourable Gentleman said he must confess that he (Mr. Wilberforce) had endeavoured to have those prosecutions conducted on such grounds, that it would have been impossible they could appear to have any political motives. He then entered into a severe reprobation of such publi cations, and concluded with declaring his opinion that the Law Officers of the Crown would not have done their duty if they had not interposed in defence of the religion of the country. Lord COCHRANE said it was incumbent on Mi nisters to punish those who had instigated rebellion, as they were pleased to call it. Hone had been tried for conimitung an offence against religion, while his offence was solely political, and directed against Mi nisters.—The Petitions were then ordered to lie on the table. tis gouts° , whethe r ge thes tare•?ac The ATE o v : an a barg e ho have p ,asts libc ci e ther he .35 Was an * s duty as ause the hose libels ury—for such pm y different • such p on to hi A se one r ish to ma ;tries who et the que e s of d a l e& be not libels, „,.. The j ie weigh , °red, tha f•ut did it 1 • ings in d lone, and heir disgu ere to be * iinst oc ened to t csltation 0 ,thszaia ,ad been z e s:Jould ie Honou e had c •rtiorari .1 not thi ial to let he had the print Mr. LYI lity of de hich he he edict ougl al if he have swards con the verdi *stlit conta -.ens were the Gove : those rr Iductions most then :eyed the ....ser to ai horned tionally • rting. ,lithe In d, he co ani consid Mr. RR( read in l Busting he any z had bees ••ces of • bound yey had z :ey might ey consic d that if seduced • er side osecutioi e cause stuns did •robation ar such r unable I Bich he • qe, whit rposite a rich wer .Wage ere no I • in:t the wishe at at all Lord C obst zur.ents J ing of td mor a Jur 'the ve: vtrdi doctri ' the t rawl , - it it , ou ' • the H o , :lion, of Is pin the Han ..deny sr him o crantr 1 • ~ 1f.) ; the ! . st ..:' ad.ln " tho• ROYAL SCOTCH BURGHS. Lord A. HAMILTON presented a Petition from the Burgh of Ayr, praying for a Reform in the Scotch Burghs. It was, he observed, nearly a month since he called the attention of Parliament to this subject. At that time he understood from the Lord Advocate that some measure was in contemplation on the sub ject. Not seeing that Learned Lord in his place, he would wish to be informed by the Noble Lord oppo site (Castlereagh) whether any and what steps had been since taken with respect to the Burghs ? Lord CASTLEREAGH was sorry he could not give the Noble Lord — the information he required.— He had himself understood from the Lord Advocate that a Bill was in a state of preparation on the sub ject ; but he (Lord Castlereagh) was not aware what progress had been since made in it. He would, how ever, take an early opportunity of inquiring into it. RXFORM. Sir S. ROMILLY said he had 45 Petitions to pre sent, praying for a Reform in Parliament. They were signed by not more than twenty persons each.l They imagined that there was a law to prevent per sons from petiticning that House in greater numbers; but they were entirely mistaken. There was no law to limit the numbers of those who might think pro per to complain to their Representatives. They had mistaken an Act passed at the Restoration, which made it penal to go about to obtain signatures to Pe titions above the number of twenty. The first of these Petitions, and he believed they were all alike, prayed for a law to allow all persons to have a right to vote for Members of Parliament. He did not co incide with this opinion ; but he had been solicited to present the Petitions. They were then brought up, and it appeared they came from Bristol. They were read short, and or dered to lie on the table. Lord COCHRANE presented one hundred Peti tions from Leeds in Yorkshise, forty-five from Bris tol, fire from Newcastle-upon-Tyne, and several from other places, in favour of a Reform of Parliament. These Petitions were each signed by fifty persons, in stead of by 50,000 as last year, but he hoped before the close of the Session that Petitioners would come forward more numerous than ever.—The Petitions were ordered to lie on the table. HABEAS CORPUS. Lord COCIIRANE presented a petition from Ro bert Thorn, a weaver, of Glasgow, who had been taken up under the Habeas Corpus Suspension Act. The petitioner, who asserted his innocence, com plained of having been arrested and committed to prison, where he was kept for five days without being supplied with any aliment, and exposed to all the horrors of famine and the inclemency of the season. During a longer period he had had no bed to lie upon. He had subsequently been somewhat better accommodated, and had been allowed the sum of eight pence per day, out of which he had to purchase coals and other necessaries. He further complained, that when he felt sick, from the hardships to which he was subjected, he had been denied medical assis tance. The Noble Lord maintained the statements embodied in this petition deserved the most serious inquiry, as. if they were true, acts of more flagrant injustice had not been committed under any Govern ment in Europe. A simple denial of the facts ought not to satisfy the House. The case ought to be fully investigated, that if the jailor had been guilty of the oppression imputed to him, public indignation might fall on the right head. The Petition having been read, Mr. FINLAY said he knew, from a most authentic source, from a Gentleman who had recently gone through the prison, and had heard every one of the pri soners express satisfaction at the manner in which they were 'treated, and thanks for the attention paid to their families which had been placed in a better situation than they could have hoped to provide for them ! ( Hear, hear.) With respect to the innocence of the party, he believed he would not have dared to state on that subject, what appeared in the Petition, in any Court or place where he was known. Though he would be the last man to oppose an inquiry where any thing like a real grievance called for redress, yet on the present occasion, knowing the jail in question to be remarkable for ie regularity and propriety of its arrangemantc, he could not believe the Petition in any respect entitled to the attention of the House. The Petition was ordered to be printed. Lord COCHR ANE presented two Petitions from Wm. Irwin and John Buchanan, two other persons who 11:,c1 been confined under the Habeas Corpus Suspension Act, which in the main circumstances complained of, were similar to that which he had just laid before the House. One of these individuals stated his life to have been preserved by the interference of a Member of that House, (Mr. J. P. Grant) who might he questioned as to the truth of this staternent.l The Petitions were ordered to lie on the table. . I COPPOIG/ItT OP AVIZOPR. Sir EGERTON BITIDGEiI, in rising to move for leave to bring in a Bill to after the law with respect to - the coprX d s of Anthems, stated the grievances which be to remedy, to be, is his opinion, as they were in that of others, of a very serious nature, not anty as they affected mahrin, hot as theyaffeeted literature itself He smaisdisr leave to bring in a Bill to alter and amend the Copyright Act of the 54th of the King. Lord A. HAMILTON said he should oppose the Bill, if its provisions should be similar to those of the Bill formerly brought in. Mr. PEEL acquiescing in the introduction of the Bill, did not mean to abandon the opposition he had given the measure when it was last before the House. Lord PALMERSTON and Mr. FORBES spoke to the same effect.--Leave was given to bring in the Bill. CHURCH LIVINGS. Mr. B ABlNGlol4noved an Address to the Prince Regent, for a list of all Rectories, Vicarages, Chapel ries, and Perpetual Curacies in the gift of the Crown (not fallen by a lapse to the Crown) now vacant, spe cifying the time at which they had become vacant. After a few words from Messrs. BROUGHAM, Cust- WIN, BATHURST, and WY MN, the motion was agreed to. The Honourable Member then moved for an Ad dress, praying for a return of the Rectories, Vica rages, Chapelries, and Perpetual Curacies, fallen Ly a lapse to the Crown, and specifying the counties in which they were situated. and the time at which the lapse had taken place.--The motion was agreed to. CONSITUTION Or THE lONIAN ISLES. Sir C. MONCK moved that the Political Consti tution of the lonian Isles, ratified by his Royal High ness the Prince Regent, in the Treaty signed at Paris in 1815, should be laid before the House. The motion was agreed to. CONDEMNED SPANISH SHIPS. Dr. PHILLIMORE wished to know whether it was the pleasure of the House that the motion, of which he had given notice, should now be brought on? Mr. WILBERFORCE suggested the expediency of postponing the motion, on account of the absence of an Hon. Member of great weight in that House, who had intended to take a part in the debate. Dr. PHILLIMORE was anxious to say he had only been prevented from bringing on the motion before by the pressure of most important business. He now wished to take that course which should be most agreeable to the House. He, however, was in dined to postpone the motion for the present, but he wished it to come on as early as possible. Mr. LYTTLETON thought the motion ought to be postponed. Mr. WILBERFORCE thought it might be well to postpone it till Tuesday next. Dr. PHILLIMORE had only hesitated to put it off on account of its having been previously so ft equently postponed.--The motion was postponed till Tuesday. ARMY ESTIMATZS. Mr. ARBUTHNOT brought up the Report of the Committee of Supply. Mr. LYTTLETON did'not mean at present to ob ject to the Resolutions contained in the Rep o rt, but he wished to call the attention of the House to one or two points, which he thought of importance. The practice of exacting from every Officer an affidavit before he received his half-pay, that he held no office of emolument under Government, he thought ought to be dispensed with, unless cogent reasons could he shewn for retaining it. He also objected to the re gulation under which no widow, possessing from other sources an income double in amount to the pen sion to which the services of her husband might give her claim. It was hard that the widow of an Officer who had insured his life for an annuity of 1001. and paid for it sums which he could ill spare, should, on account of her claim to this, forfeit the 501. per an num to which she would, under other circumstances, have been entitled. lie wished as much as any man for retrenchment, but this was Ant,the economy which the House and the country looked for at the hands of Ministers. Lord PALMERSTON said with respect to the af fidavit, it was required by the Appropriation Act, so this was not the occasion for discussing its merits.— He, however, argued that it was justified by the rea sons of the case and the statements of the Honourable Gentleman were not borne out by analogy. The ar rangements complained of which regarded the Wi dow's Pensions had the recommendation of the Com mittee of Finance in the last Session of Parliament. Sir C. MONK, as the Treaty oflBls provided that the lonian Isles should share the expense of the gar. risons and troops necessary to secure that military possession which was necessary, with the protecting country, wished to know what proportion of the ex pense they had borne? Mr. GOULBURN stated a Constitutional Body to have been formed in the lonian States, to raise the sums necessary for the maintenance of the garrison of 3000 men to be kept up there. Mr. LYTTLETON wished to know what part of the Report of the Committee which had been men tioned, recommended the arrangements with respect to the Widows Pensions, of which he (Mr. Lyttleton) had complained? Sir WILLIAM BURROWES commented on the Report generally, and compared the present estimates of the present, the third year of peace, with those of 1792 and 1793, the last year of peace before the French Revolution and the first year of war. The whole of the force maintained for Great Britain and Ireland and the Isles of Jersey and Guernsey in 1792 amounted to 27,701 men, including officers. Now, when there was less danger to be apprehended, there was an excess for the home service of 29,526 men.— The whole regular force voted by Parliament for 1793, when the war had broke out, was 70,521 men. Over this there was, on the total amount of the force now kept up at the commencement of the third year of peace, an excess of 11,121 men. He then repeated the statements which he had advanced in the Com mittee of Supply on the preceding night, and con tended, the force kept up, and the expense thereby incurred, were not called for by the circumstances of the country. A greater instance of profusion and extravagance could not be imagined than was afford ed by the course thus pursued in the present state of our finances, when it had been seen that in the last year the net revenue was but about 51,000,000/. while the expenditure of the nation amounted to 65,000,0001. thus leaving a deficit of I 1 , 0)00,0001. — He concluded by moving as an amendment, that the total fottt be 103,000, instead of 113,000. Mr. CURWEN thought the House mast be con• vinced by the eloquent speech of his Honourable and Learned Friend who spoke list. He insisted upon the nocessity of every possible retrenchment, and said the amendment had his cordial support. Lord PALMERSTON said, that without meaning any disrespect to the Honourable Baronet (Sir V. . Burrowes), he did not think it necessary to waste the time of the House in giving any answer to the thread bare arguments which it. contained. There was no parallel between the various periods mentioned by `the.Honourable Baronet and the present time, when the circumstances of the country were so much changed, and the increase in the population had in creased the number of turbulent spirits in the coun try—(hear, hear, from the Opposition Mr. CALCRAFF s aid, th a t th e Noble Lord who ' had spoken last, treated the arguments adduced against the amount of the proposed Peace Establish ment as if they had-been torn to shreds ; whereas, in truth, they reinained totally unanswered. The Noble Lord said—" You propose an Establishment on the scale of that in 1792; I, on the contrary, propose a new scale for the Peace Establishment cf 1818 ; there fore, I am riht and you are wronr—Su:h was the logic of the Noble Member for Cambridge. (Laughter.) —He thought that, when it was considered how flat tering an account of the tranquil state of Ireland had been last night given by the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Peel), it would be allowed that a con siderable reduction might be made in the amount of force for Ireland. Mr. PEEL' accused the Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Cgcraft) of misrepresenting what he had last night said respecting the state of Ireland. For al though he had stated it was a source of satisfaction to the House that the internal state of Ireland was much improved, yet he had stated it as his decided opinion, that no force of a less amount than that proposed was compatible with the safety of Ireland. This was his opinion. The opinion of others might be-different; but certainly he was more confirmed in his opinion, when he considered that the only two Members who differed firm it were the Honourable Gentleman who spoke last, and the Honourable lea rosin (Sir William Burrowes)—two Hon. Membe%s than whom there were none who could be more per fectly ignorant as to the state of Ireland, and conse quently whose opinion respecting the amount of force which the present situation of that coun:ry required was likely to be of so little weight—!hear, hear,.) It would be agreed on all hands, that nothing could be more injurious nor unsafe than a sudden reduction in the military force of Ireland; and he was sure that the House would be of his opinion that no farther re duction in the military force in Ireland, beyond that made in the present estimate, was consistent with the internal security of that country. fir JOHN NEWPORT felt bound to express his sense of the obligations which were due to the Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Peel). for the course of policy which he had pursued with respect to Ireland, in substituting the civil for the military authority in the preservation of the peace of that country(Leto, hear).—The reduction of the military force in that country should be gradual and progressive, for it could not he doubted that any sudden abandonment of the policy hitherto acted upon would be produc tive of very bad conseluencee.. lie. thought that with respect to the Womee, they should be made to contribute at least in .some degree to the support of the force maintained for their protection. Mr. 31ARRYATT said that the circumstances of the Colonies were such, that few or none of them were capable of maintaining the military force neces sary for their protection. Mr. BROUGHAM said that the burden of the proof why the military establishment of the present year should be one battalion greater than that of 1792, lay not upon those who thought wish .him that there should be no increase, but upon, those who pro posed the increase. But the Noble Lord who called for the proposed establishment, talked of the increase of the populaticfn producing' an increase of turbu lence, and therefore requiring an increase of military force. With respect to the population, it had increased perhaps, about 60%000, or allow it.to be even a mil lion ; but was there with this increase i* the popula tion such an increase of turbulence as to require a mi litary force greater in the proportion of two to one than that which was thought necessary in the year 1792—that year of turbulence and.danger, (hear), when Parliament was suddenly assembled, the Mili tia called out—a Proclamation issued against sedi tious publications, and the dreadful alarm on account of the French Revolution P With respect to the state of Ireland, he alluded to the claims of the Roman Catholics, and the state of disqualification in which they were kept, as being the cause why that country now required a large military force. He hoped, however, that the policy which rendered the main tenance of this force necessary, would be abandoned. On the whole question, he expressed much regret that so little attention was given. to the Army Esti mates. He gave the Amendment his most cordial support. Lord CASTLEREAGH could not allow the ques tion to go to a division without saying a few words. It was not from not feeling the great importance of the question that he had not sooner offered himself to the attention of the House, but because he had heard nothing urged in the course of the debate which was an argument against the proposed eitablishment; and he referred to the thinness of the House on the present occasion as evincing a feeling that after the previous discussions, the opinions of most Mem bers seemed to be quite settled as to the nece.. ity of the amount of force proposed. The Honourable and Learned Gentleman (Mr. flroughant) wLhcd to take the year 179'2 as fixing the standard, accordiag to which the estimates of the pzesent year thorid be regulated.—Now, with respect to the establishment of 179'2, he begged the House to recollect that Mr. Pitt, in that year, when he proposed the estimates, stated, that he had framed them on the prospect of a long period of profound peace. In this, how ever, it unhappily proved that Mr. Pitt was mistaken, for the war broke out the very next year ; and the consequence of the lowness of the establishme n t in the year 179'2, was, that this country suffered very much from an extreme degree of milita:y feebleness, during the first years of the wvr. The Hc nourable Baronet (Sir W. Burrowes) thought that we could do at present with a force often thousand men less than that in the estimates lout then he for got to state the particular quarto- in emits tl.e re- ; • . i , ;4,f 1 • , f ~ ' 1 . i 1 41 1 ' I i 1 ii 1 1 , , 1 1 1 i , . , i ..i. i, l f 4 t , . i • - 1 , 1 lII' • i . ; 114 1 j ' 0 1 1 I 4 I , I l k i n i 1 i { i 1 ' i , n 1 1 1 , . N . 41 It is I I ' 1 .11 il . 141 , i # i • i i 1 ' , , II,( ; , I' I ; 9 , . , k, • i : 1 I t l h k ‘ ,l, i - 1 1 ~ . ,:.? t 1 ti. , 1 4