Star. — London, England, 1819-12-15 00:00:00

1 tl linl im c *. niece 'of the fnit. He adinitied ' at , time, that Mt Objestritnit to the racistte be cansidtsably removed if: the porter of idotmation and granting warrants were given tw o Magistrates instead of one, and the search for ns ,onfined to the day.—(Hear, hear, hear). He :hided by moving an Amendment to that effect. eASTLERLAGH.denieti that this Bill was t hi n , : else than a measure of protection to the as and property of those who could not protect 'selves by any arms they might possess. He w have a very lame case, if he could not shew ich measures had been frequently found neces lo 1811, a Bill of a much severer character tie House without much discussion ; and that Ire the power of searching to a single Magis •;c, or to call upon all those who had arms to de them up to him. Ile therefore contended, that was a measure even more guarded than that of (ion forbid that he should say that this was a arm% and odious measure !—(Loud cries of heart frost the Opposition side of the House) — the temper of the times required it! --(Hear)— r e was a spirit abroad which represented this, and r measures, as tyrannical and novel : It had been that in the best periods of our hiStory there were ; h measures as these. Now, it so happened, in the period between the Rebellions of 1715 1715, there were two such Bills passed ; and more after the latter Rebellion, of a still nature—Wear, hear). These Bills, passed en after the Bill of Rights, were Whig measures, e by men who must have well understood the of Rights; and yet they thought the measures had alluded to no infringement of that Bill! , r).—The Act for disarming. the Highlanders during the whole of the reigns of George the a and Second. and made it so highly penal, that - second offence of having arms in possession, person so offending might be condemned to serve berth America as a soldier— (Hear, hear, hear). Peers, and sons of Peers, in Scotland, were then rented from carrying arms, and he was very happy aow they bad no occasion to resort to such harsh ures. But he could not help again regretting Honourable Gentlemen should forget the' ex les he had just cited, and represent these as odious ;es, for which the Government should be held n the detestation of mankind. He did not argue present measure as he had done the Seditious ,angs sill, as a measure consistent with the spirit Constitution. He conceived, on the contrary, it infringed on the rights of the subject—Wear, -0. But he contended that Parliament had power of suspending certain rights, in order to •.ect others of still greater consequence. It was ;nly the right of the people of England to be. ' for the protection of their dwellings; but a interference with that right might be rendered try, as in the present instance. He should hi at any time in acceding to the suggestions*.nt lee rable Members from the other side of the How% ill his conscience, he thought, that to adogt the ttion now prop osed would entirtitAifeat the .racy of the measure. • Mr. BROUGHAM thanked the Voble Lord for in; from within --(Hear, hear) Di d any of t. evils now threaten the Country;? Would it be sa. that rebellion now existed ?—(Hear, bear). 'Wei\ not the intended risings put off from day to day? To be sure no little alarm had lately been excited trt . the City,, by seeing chalked on the walls in large characters—" Remember the 9th of December!"- It was supposed'to be the day fixed for a general in surrection. but it had at last turned out to mean-.- " Remember the drawing of the richest Lottery on the 9th of December, with eight prizes of £20,000," which, curiously enough, had also turned out to be only four !—(General laughter). He then contended.' that the measures adopted in 1715 had only hastened and exasperated, instead of preventing the rebellion, and that it was not the disarming Acts which had ultimately pacified the Highlanders, hut a series of conciliatory measures, the abolition of the heritable jurisdictions, and especially the wise policy of Lord Chatham, in throwing himself upon the People of that Country—in going to the North for merit, and finding l it there, where his predecessors only found rebellion. He admitted that a case might arise to justify the temporary suspension of certain lights, but it ought to be done in the manner least calculated to affect or abridge other rights. The Noble Lord acknow ledged the right of the subject to keep arms for the. rotection of their dwellings; but it was not so that ' e (Mr. Brougham ) had read the Constitution. An nglishman's house was not only to be kept sacred from police officers and robbers ; it was his castle, as a higher sense of the word—(Hear, hear),—and hs had arms in his defence, that he might turn thou against the Rulers of the country, if they broke the laws or violated the Constitution—(Hear, hear). If he preached a. dangerous doctrine, it was not to the country, but to its Rulers, and he preached it not on his own authority, but on that of the venerable Judge Blackstone, who said in express words, that arms were in the hands Of the People for that purpose.— He would follow up what he had said with an ad vice to the Communify, not even to talk against, far less to resist, what their rulert got to be enacted by the three branches of the Legislature. What was done by Parliament could never constitutionally be opposed, and he for one would resist, to the last drop of his blood, if necessary, any encroachment upon ' their decisions, come from what quarter it might, as vehemently and stedfastly as he would resist any en croachments of the Crown. These were safe doc -trines for Governments who ruled with wisdom, who ruled alike for the protection of the People and the Crown, and they were, above all, safe for Govern ments who made no efforts to violate the Public Liberty—(Cries of Hear, hear, followed the close of the Honourable Member's speech). Mr. CANNING said, he should be most unwilling to quote any expression of the Learned Gentleman s beyond the meaning to which he had himself limited it, and therefore he would admit the right of the subject to arms for his own defence, and even for resistance to an undue exercise of power in any ima ginablgt in any supposably case, not analogous to the present, qualified as the Learned Gentleman had qualified his principlc u He was ready to admit this dart - rine, and did not 94arrel with the principle ; but what hefoudd fault with was the occasion, which no man could say called for the declarations they had just heard. He asked the Learned Gentleman If he thought it possible that such opinions as he had deli vered could go forth at a time like the present, appli cable enough to a speculative theory, but totally in , 2pplicable to the case before them ; he would ask him if he conceived it possible for such opinions to be spread abroad; imagining the right of resYtance to authority, and leaving the sufficient cause undefined, without being productive of infinite evil ? Having conceded all thatwas claimed by the Learned Gen tleman, it might be allowed him to state on the other side, that however the right of the _subject to possess arms was acknowledged, it was no ge. neral and abstract right, but one liable, like all other rights, to be controuled by the governing power, on spewing a sufficient cause for that pro ceeding. If they wanted any proof of this, he would only refer therms to that immortal statute, which had been so much quoted in the House and out of it, on every discussion connected with the measures proposed by Ministers ; but he knew not haw it was never quoted correctly ; he would refer them to the Bill of Rights, that great security of po pular liberties, which accorded arms to subjects ac cording to their condition. But there was one small qualification in the Bill of Rights (not that he ap proved of it, but only adduced it in support of an ar gument), a qualification which declared, and he knew not why a reference to it was always omitted, that— " all subjects, being Protestants, should have the right to be so armed," and excluding the Roman Catholics from that right. Now what did he infer from this? Not that it would be right to disarm the Roman Ca tholics, but that, like every other general right, the right to keep arms, was subject to a qualification ; that it had been subjected to a qualification in the very first enactment relating to it, and a large body of the People excluded by a clause which, if still in operation, would most particularly affect those parts towards which the present measure was directed ; and which was done at the :era of so constitutional an enactment, because the profession of the Raman Catholic Religion- was thought to be a proof of dis affection. And the same was the principle of this I Bill, which presumed that the concealing and having' arma, was a proof that the parties were disaffected._ He appealed, therefore , to the Bill of Ri g hts, in the ' spirit of which they were legislating ; and, in the name of thjr Whig ancestors, callid bn the Gentle meni , opposite to controul that privileg e, and invade a particular right, far the sake of the gene . ral peace aiiil preservation of the country. He admitted that it was necessary that a case should be made out to justify this mcasute, and had thought that when the Speaker left the Chair, and the Committee was formed, the House had unanimously consented to the adoption of th e p rinciple ; that this species of dan g er was not dhp ttted. He had thought that their only object was to examine the clauses of the Bill, and 'that as fur itsfoundation and necessity they were ad mitted by . Gdinletnen who unanimously agreed to the passing of the Training Bill. He had thought that the same arguments which led to the adoption of the one measure, secured asseut to the . principle, or the Other . ; and thal wheththe Mietrugs of dik, ,seditioas,br the dimiffeeted Mn," iviri to bee hif: 1 . nand to fir t r ouled or not, the military arr a y , which was note; rions ; the words of comman d to mar ch ing frankly admitted thai the present meas a violation of the principles of the Coustitutiot. is it was doubtful whether everyindiiraual in the would be found to agree in the same opinion, whether this very measure would not be pro claimed from a certain ultra quarter—(Hear, bear) .be one of those improvements in the constitu tan of the Country, similar in value to the Bill for ,iossii the Tight of Meeting, and that for ering the Press !—(Hear, hear, hear). Whether salt sentiments would be expressed he could not take spa Limself to say ; but the House had at least the 'fission of his Majesty's Government, the very au of the measure, that it was an infra'ction of the tights of the People, and a violation of the Consti mon of the Land. On what grounds then did the Noble Lord defend such a measure? He • bad re (curse to his arguments of last night,: and turning round, exclaimed, " Did I not, five or six years ago, pass a measure tea times worse ?"—(Laughter). Or, " Why object to six Bills ? Do you think that if they were not necessary, I should propose them ? I only introduced two some years since. Why do you dis approve of the power given to ohe Justice of the Peace ? By the Bill of 1812, a single Magistrate vas authorised to break into houses and seize arms, not on information upon oath, but on his own suspi cion."—But he would tell the Noble Lord, that his tale of the House were not bound by that argument --(Hear, hear). .They had resisted the measure of 1812, and it was only for those who had. supported Lis Majesty's Goverment on that occasion, 'to feel themselves chained on the present—(Hear, The Noble Lord said, that the measure would be Ipled if the proposed alterations were carried into I .:t, because a warning would be given to the Pe0 , , , 1e to secrete their arms. But here was a statue tcry warning which the House were passing. Fer the 'meat the People should see that a measure had • enacted, giving their neighbours the power of Leaking into their houses and searching for arms„ culd it be believed that they would be such fools as to leave them where they should be foupd Wculd they pile them up in stars or crosses, as in arsenals, where they would lie open to the do. rniciliary visits of Magistrates ?—(Hear, hear.)-- if tho measure were not made to go beyond its prs. lent provisior.s, no security would be afforded this ene single stand of arms should be found in the cf the disturbed districts. The Noble Lard bki in fact answered objections started in encases *lce; but that was paying a bad compliment to MI Z , oble colleagues, particularly the Secretary for 04 110%.e Department, who had hitherto been consid as ta.itiag the whole wisdom of the Cabinet, and wh6 Ecod in the other place, to answer for themselves to tai' Prote s t ers against this Bill. With all the gram- van and English which those Noble colleagues of t!e Noble Lord had lately .displayed, yet be would not trust thei r def e nce to their tongues sad their b ut must come to this House to be their advoeite :re Noble Lord had appealed to the rebellion 171,,, and to the measures passed in what he ter tLe good old times of the Whigs. But those mea- - sures, however contrary they might be to the Consti- . tution, were at least effective, whilst the present 1014 1 sot I kelp to prove so. But at what time were they Payed ? When rebellion was stalking threogh the 14 nd—when there was a• disputed Succession—when "ar was menacing from without, and rebellion assist- had flea. • • ' • . _ • • • NA fit foritter *glean. theft - • taMe, ecirveyed,, et ' tem* "eihtd—itt leas 4 thd jai Of sit distint &gen to have aims and meth, theefete; to "* tel . _ to Use thencand therefore that they should have had paper—ii 'waist be . no dispute but dpon the provision of the measure. men-Speefficifly statik Indeed the Honourable Gentleman whO opened this such power Was granted debate had acknowledged the danger by offering his forme; date, tilt it p' vote provided two Justices were substituted for one, Whig Adminismatic and the search limited to the day instead of extending which mote severe throughout the night—(Hear,frotn the Opposition).— sed were not in.operstkal4.4 The Honourable Gentlemen who cheered this as if it They renewed t h e m were a mistake, surely wronged their Honourable visitation every sixth Friend, for it might be presumed that he Would not' gotten on the st eely ' have agreed to the Bill at all unless he had been con- were to be of the sal vinced that a- ease of danger existed. There was 'no intent 'with their Septe.. _ artifice—and it was worth while to observe it—there that this was no argument for passing the Bill. but was no artifice in debate more common than that one when cumulative charges were heaped upon Miei which had been practised by the Honourable ancrsters from the other side, an answer was necessary Learned Gentleman opposite to-night. It consisted In for ev'ery accusation. But *hen they did answer in attacking Government on two or three points, and if this way, they were accused , of travelling out of the they answered one, they were replied upon that they record ; yet if precedents were not to be alleged On had not answered the other; as if, when they refuted the 'one side, unptecedentedness should not be one of the arguments against them, without intending urged ea the other. When this was done, lei the • by the same reasoning to overturn any other, they House look ai the Whig measures, and at • this. Bill I were to be held' bound to have failed in refuting the Those were Unlimited ; this confined to the space of whole. There was an example of this sort before two years. By'ail those, any Magisuate was em them. This Bill is highly unconstitutional, said one; positive' to act on his own responsibility without an it is unprecedented, said another. His Noble Frieod oath -.this required the oath of a competent person. answered the latter allegation by shewing that so'fer In th osei of the Whig Legislators, there was no right from being unprecedented, there was a precedent in - of appeal ; in this, there was an appeal to the Qear a late Parliament, and many precedents in times to , ter Sessiops. In these, an obstruction by five per which his antagonists would refer if they wanted ex- sons authorised the calling in of the military force, simpler) , men or measures to support them. But then and, in case death ensued, the parties were exone it was immediately said, that precedents were nothing, rated ; in this there was no such provision. In those, that this was no reply to the charge of being unconsti- ' fine, imprisonment, and transportation, were awarded s tutional, which this measure was, though not of that in this, the offence was treated as a misdemeanour towering severity which characterised its Whig pre- only. Here then, was no proof of that wish, so un decessors. To this he again replied, that the argu- foundedly imputecrto Ministers, to invade the Con ment was good, as an answer to the charge of want stitution—to go farther in their enactments than the of precedent, and that his Noble Friend had never necessity of the case required—or to manifest a dis meant it to apply to any other. objection:— regard of the popular rights. Hee trusted that the Indeed his Noble Friend had not pushed it as far as comparison he had drawn would answer the taunt, so it might be urged. The Learned Gentleman (Mr. ill deserved, of unprecedented severity--that the Gen- Brougham) had accused him of addressing himself tlemen opposite would no longer accuse them of ne to what was called a Protest in another place, and electing any mitigation in favour of the liberty and told them that this was blameable, since that paper rights of the subject. They could not surely say, might have been met on the spot by a Counter-pro- that Ministers had forgotten the .principles of the test. Fur his part, he had never heard'of this latter Constitution, or had not displayed Jess of hardship document; but as the Learned Gentleman had men- than their Whigancestors, when they found it neces dosed it, there might be such a thing, or it ought to nary to limit aright for the sake of the whole cora.- be invented (but then there would be no precedent)— munity.—(Loud cheering). (A laugh)—though, perhaps, it was better for that Mr. BROUGHAM, in explanation, said, he never High Assembly not to have a war of quills after a made use of two different phrases attributed to him war of words. This Paper, however, which . was by the Right Honourable Gentleman. He never given to the Public as a Protest, must be an impu• said the proposed measures of his Majesty's Govern dent fabrication. It asserted that some of the wisest meat Were unprecedented, nor did he ever say, what and noblest names in the Country were signed to an signified precedents? Nor did he ever talk of the =- assertion of themost absurd nature. The names of Earls qualified right of the subject' to bear arms, if an Grey, Thane, and others, were placed in mockery to actual necessity for restricting that right could be this precious Paper, which he would treat in the fairly proved—(Hear). light it appeared to him, as one of the inventions to Mr. CANNING observed, lie did all he could to libel those great names, so common in the present state the Honourable and Learned Gentleman's argu times. It advanced t he following monstrous pro- meats as fairly as he could, nor did he make use of I.o:salons, to prove that the Bill Was objectionable:— that advantage as to some of them which he might " Because,in former periods of much greater danger have very fairly done. to the Crown and Constitution of these Realms— Mr. BROUGHAM tl:anked the night Honourable I I when conspiracies by the adherents of the House of Gentleman for his courtesy. H , s very sensibly felt Stuart were known. to be directed against both— that he should not now have had an opportunity of Mien preparatioris. were making for rebellion, with making this explanation to the Eight Honourable idle assistance of -France—then men of the highest Gentleman, had he not been so civil. Ali the neigh ['rank, station, and influence in both Kingdoms, were bourhood of St. John's and St. Margaret's would deeply engaged in these designs: nay, during two have been echoing to those praises rung in his ears Ifisemidable rebellions, in .1715 and 1745, no such from the Honourable Gentlemen around him, if he power' was granted to the Crown ; yet the new line (Mr. Canning) had made that exhibition from which ,of succession was defended, and our free Constitu- he had so obligingly abstained. don successfully maintained against all these dangers. Mr. TIERNEY said, the whole wrath of the Right IThe principles of the Revolution had been too firmly Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Canning) had been excited Imprinted in the hearts and minds ,of our ancestors, against the Whigs, as if he could not rest satisfied Ito allow them, on the spur of any emergency , how - without making t hei present a party . question. His lever alarming, to hazard the existence of a right wrath—iNo, no!)—ewell then the whole of the Right k which they had so recently ass erted ."— It was 101- Hon. Crentleman's speech, was intended to throw a possible but that this was a surreptitious Paper, con: certain degree of slur on every Gentleman at his side trived for the purpose 'of brining the wise men, of the House; but that was nothing very new. The whose signatures it purported to bear, into contempt; whole burthen of his speech was " Whig ! Pi'hig I for it could not be supposed that they had read Whig r-and from day to day, and night to night, Snoolides Coatinuation, and it was little short of he was'never comfortable without saying that the etwodalson issageatinn to ascribe such ignorance to country never could be, nor ever was, well governed persons of their station. But however the Paper (for by the Whigs ;in short, that they Were always doing he must not call it Protest) came to be manufactured, harm to the People I He thought, however, as the it had led him to look a little into the history of the Government copied all their mischiefs; and adopted period embraced, of that period when the principles all the bad precedents, that they should now copy of the Revolution were too firmly imprinted to per- some of their good ones. An Honourable Member mit the right of arms to be hazarded. He there found, under the Gallery had very properly said, that con in 1715, that they issued a Statute, and it was thus the ciliation, and not party, would be the best way of Whigs expounded their principles in the Preamble. coming to a sight understanding with the country ; Listen to the more moderate Whigs of these times— and if ever such a course should be pursued, it ought to Vert the Right Han. Gentkman read - the Preamble to be on this occasion. It was not adopted, and he could am Ad for disarming the Highlaaders, which dated, not help it, however much and siucerely he regretted it. Met a custom had long prevailed of having area, When the Bill.before them was brought in, he said, Eat carrying .them when abroad in tie fields, tsc.j— if a sufficient case were made out, he should not ob- And what were the penalties in this Act? . The con- ject to the enactment of measures calculated to ob-, viction might, take place before one Justice, and im- viate the dangers of the times, but, he added, that he prisonment, and floes increasing from £4O upwards, would certainly oppose granting such powers to one in failure of the payment of which, transportation for Magistrate, and against all search for arms by night seven years, were the punishments awarded: Would —besides that, he further observed, they had still apy one compare this first offspring of the Bill of two stages left at which they might oppose the prirs- Rights with the present measure? Nor was it after- ciple of aheßill. He never said he had abandoned wards mitigated by its Whig parents, during the the principle of the subject's right to the possession whole time they were in power.. By the Statute of of arms, he still maintained that valuable principle,. George the Second, in the year 1726, arm-holders, in and maintained it much more broadly than his Ho disobedience of the Act, were condemned to serve nourable and Learned Friend (Mr. Brougham). Ace the King beyond the was in his Majesty's North cording to the spirit of the Constitution, a British American Colonies: and he would never see and even the owners of premises subject possessed that tight, on which they might be foundavere to be deemed it invaded, without lifting his voice against it concealers, and subject to fine, imprisonment, and When that exception in the Bill of Rights was made, 'transportation. And it would shock the sensibility to which the Right Ifts..Gentleman alluded, a Xing of some of the Honourable Gentlemen opposite still who favoured Cathads was sent off, but all the new more, to learn A that women were to be punished by subjects—all the Piotestant subjects, were alloyed im?risourninit for two, years, and.by a fine of £1 00. their full and free possession; nor were they to give This wet, the, softened Whig measure. By the 19th ep that right to any human being. He stood by the-Bill of George the Second, still heavier penalties were in- of Rights as much as that Right Hon. Gentleman, Sicced, and every seven years the measure was re- He (Mr. Canning) seemed. to have-been very fortu.. nesied previous to its expiring." In 1755,. it was re- nate in picking up the paper from which he read an newed again, though. uncalled for by auy circum- extract, but slot being able to conjure up an argus stance, in that year of isend peace; and in 1769, went in that House, he and his colleagues soden the last of Gwrp the Second, it was re-enacted, for toured to find out something that 'mete-Seel in into' the last time, when . thetebellions of 1715 and 1745 Hier place, which might serve them in their distress had pretty well faded away. TWo year after the (Hear, hear). The reading of this paper could only era so dwelt upon by the Learned Gentlemen--two have been intended to throw something like.disosest yeirs after Lord Chatham was calling down the into the debate; for his Honourable Friend (IdNilea. Highland population as soldiers, to defend their net) distinc tl y said, in the o p enin g of the discessioo; -Southern brethren-r-he was still disarming them, and that although objecdng to the principle of thwnseas with a preamble declaring—" Whereasall the former sure, if two Magistrates were substituted" for one, and Actshad beenfound useful and beneficial!"—(fieer), the search by night ;leen he secesie :nee t ime s were - the AttS *ltch he 'Fed described, an the 'House by proposing his Amendment. But, no, the last was the lest act of n Whig Administration, said the Right Honourable Gentleman and his eel-. who then went out of goventancuts and there had leagues, we want a little party—some seasoning for - c3tieltell same time, th be maids g inW[ l ra 260 r tir o b ; confined to vdtKled by mov Li .deASTLE t hins else tha ;es and propert: ,saves by an ; 4 1d have a vet: , su ch measure lo 181'2, a the [louse Far e the pov „•,e, or to call ul t hem up to 1 Vas a measur Goo forbi a stronE, ani hear! from the temper o „ et c n as a spin e measui es, a , tliat in the ~ su ch mcasurii in the peric • c 1715, there , more afte conger nature — scot after the B ade by men of Rights ; had alluded Yor).—The A luring thi Fnt and Seconc the second cr per.on so off North Amerie .tea Peers, and t rented from c t now they b. asures. But ; oatllonourabl , ...pies he had jt I/sires, for u rat to the detest tie present me lee.ings Bill, s :the Constitut it infringe< for, hear). 13i 't power of st t ; meta others , ttainly the ri, for the • tial inteifer essary, as i • py at any t r , :.anourable Mi n ;, in his con iteration nov O tiiency of th Mr. BLtOU nring frank] tr at; a violatio Ito. it was doi t licy.se would t • atl whether claimed from —to he one c im of the Cc • UM% V riming the d- such senti men Fa :pea i m sel f admission of 1 ion of the n Eights of the ton of the I O Noble Lord (Curse to his th round, exckcii li pass a TlleitSUl o ' Why object were not nec4 le • introduced tv in' approve of h• Pace ? By was authoris not on irforr t y Oon.”—But di tile of the H --(Hear, hei 1812, and i ,in: Lis ' , Majesty's iv- themselves ith The Noble I :h crippled if tl us• i ff e.t, becai di Peo; , le to se orn tcry warnin! ea'• moment the been enactet n bceaking in! En cult: it be at to leave I o Weuld the in arsenals, P°- ancillary v th If the niea e• tent pruvisi ;ng single rift. I. hole cf t . . , IntE—AfirOi*, AeOrk . ia. ,vt!,, % ;°' 9 •;': trla 12i! _ _ o' fee such natneelliinea tn..iticia , a - .oinuats, for it 'cob d niif.litk the itatiaig, that in 1715 and:1744,1m anted to the Crown. For fsottilbe it pleased GOD to put an. en t 4 to tion, there was not a mo,..nt enactments than that now pitl49- t•ttion,—(A Igagk, and cria vt . It magainst those undeserving tt tb year; so that they were Sot. t- te-book, and if all their rinnistues same cast, they made them coe.x- ieptennial Parliaments. Be knew hor to an cili ) uld Bil se for ark Z. . . 1 t flp 1 7 1 1 . I. ' rt t 1 t . 4 1 . 1 \( ' i''' . E 4 - • 1 1 1 ' 1t • 3 11 i I 's 1/ , ii 4 ~.. t i ii. ,1 1 ~ ; . I . ;, ~.. .;, ,