Star. — London, England, 1815-04-15 00:00:00

• m ~~,.. no evidence to convict, setting all legal I points aside. The better way would be, to appoint a Committee to investigate the subject now before the House. He had no hesitation in saying, that the manner in which the Abolition Act had been carried into execution had done more mischief than the Slave Trade in its rtmost fury. He still would urge the appointment of a Committee, promising them his best information and attendance. Mr. WILBERFORCE said, what he feared most was, its being understood that this crime should be committed with impunity ; since it was most likely to be committed by British subjects, trading in parts of Africa not.under British jurisdiction. The pre . endings of the House wou ld certainly give this im preseion to the world. He was, therefore, very anxi. this to have it clearly understood that this was an atrocious crime, amounting in some instances to mur der, punishable by British law ; and thet the present persons had only escaped by the inadequacy of the tribunal that tried them, and not because they hid ne r committed a punishable crime. Although he was not so fond of attending Committees as when he was a younger man, still he was willing to meet the Honourable Gentleman on any Committee of the kind. He had not, however, been in the habit ot sitting on .such Committees, because they were formerly o tinder the case of his Friend , the late Henry Thornton, Esq. whose ability and integrity deeded no eulogium from him—( Cries of Hear I from awry part of the imam) ; and who never could be suspected of setting on foot the colony of Sierra Leone for the purpose of trafficking in slaves. The charges were in the present instance most clear ; cid he confessed he saw no good, in meeting from morning to morning, and then coming to no salu tary conclutian, Mr. H. ADDINGTON said, the sentence of transportation was about to be carried into execution, when doubts arose, suggested as to the competency of the tribunal. His impression was, indeed, that the petitioners bad in their petition all acknowledged their guilt. Mr. W. SMITH thought, that unless some great inconvenience was apprehended from producing ' the Petitions, it would become his Majesty's Govern ment to accede to the motion. Mr. BARHAM said, he certainly thought, after the insinuations cast upon us by foreign countries, as to our sincerity for the abolition of the Slave Trade, that it was highly desirable to produce the Petitions new moved for. The ATTORNEY GENERAL. spoke in support of los Honourable Friend (the Solicitor General) and maintained the incompetency of the tribunal by 'whom the present individuals were tried. He did not consider the proceeding as requirieg any thing more thau a questi el across tee Table ; but if the deci. sien was supposed to bang on a doubt respecting the criminality of ireding in slaves, there existed no deelbe r on that point ; for if these individuals had be 'n properly tried, the sentence of transportation must have been carried into effect. Lord CASTLEREAGH now submitted to his Eon lineable Friend (Mr. Wilberforce) whether he - had not already obtained all the explanation he wish ed for; .and, it so, whether he wished to press the business farther.. The criminality of the parties was allowed on all sides ; but it was not elig ible to lay the opinions of law of fi cers before the H ouse, on a crime that was reachable by the law. He, therefore, still submitted to his Hon. Friend whether he might slot withdraw his motion. Mr. WILBERFORCE said he left the motion in the hands of the House.—Marion then withdrawn. PVIDITURES FROM 31NAPARTE. Mr. PONSONBY said, he wished to ask the No ble Lord (Castlereagh) a qpegion, which he con ceived of the greatest importance to this country.— The question he should put first was, whether there was any sort of foundation for the rumour, that overtures had been made from the present Govern ment of France to our Cabinet ? Secondly, if such overtures had been made, how they were treated ? He supposed and understood, that those overtures bad been transmitted for consideration to Vienna. if this were also the case, he then wished•to know, when an answer might be expected from thence ? Lord CASTLEREAGH said, he felt no manner of difficulty in stating to the Right Honourable Gentleman and the House, that certain overtures' bad been received by this Government from France Those overtures had been thereupon sent to Vienna, shout three days ago ; but he could not precisely say sel.en an answer ruie,ht be expected to them. Mr. POINISON BY said, he now wished to put another qiiestion to the Noble Lord,, and it was a qoestion ot still mese importance than any be had hitherto pot. NV, re his Majesty's Ministers come to the deterntin ttion of taking hostile steps against Trance before the answer should arrive from Vienna Lord CAS I'LEREAGH said, the Right fir). neureble Gentlemau had at length framed a question 19 Which he could not in fairness expect a rem.. .ICILY AND ITALY. • bled POISON BY said, while he was upon topics connected with our foreign relaitens, lit had do objec tion to inform the Noble Lord (Castlereagh) of the nature of the motion he intended to have brought for ward yesterday, had the House itself sat. He had intended then to have moved for copies of all instruc eieits te Lord Wiliern Bentinck, respecting his con• duct in Sicily and Italy, from 1811 to 1818 Inclusive. Such bting the nature of the motion he was about to make, hc certainly was desirous to knew to what extent it was likely to be acceded to on the part of . the Noble Li rd ? Lord C AST 1. E REAGH said, if the Right Flo. npurable Oeittleinatt had acquainted him with the object ~t his motion, it might have saved some ex planation to hims.lf and to the House. He felt no o' j ction ta ecqeiesce in the early part of it; but, at the seine time, he certainly did not at present mean to pledgc himself to the extent ot it. * . Mr. PQWONBI said, it he understood the Nn e Lk Lord, he imagi s iled that np serious objections did eri3t to the =Pow.. Still he particularly wished te ko nh- the! the Nubl. ; a lrtl was _inclined to corn. F ly u ids the motion as far as it ratted. to Italy ? Lord CASTL R EAGH seid, he knew no impe diment to givteg the kostruetione to Lord W. bey tiocka As fee as WOO to the insutiections in the Ita lia. Steees e tiee niece ter in . which his v 4.5. w *.v.4 40'0 Cf them: TALLEYRAND.II CORIIISTOSIMENCI. Mr. WHITBREAD rose for the purpose of ad certaining if a certain extraordhiary letter, purport- I ing to be written by Prince Talleyrand to the Noble Lord opposite, which bad juat appeared is the pub ' tic Prints, was substantially true l Perhaps it mit But be turn out to be a translation of a translation. only wanted to be set right. Lord CASTLEREA.GH said, he never could accede to the utility of putting such questions as the Honourable Member was accustomed to ask.. When the proper time arrived for explanation, he trusted lie should be fully prepared to meet it: till that period came, ho wever,_ he must be excused the ! trouble Of following the H on ourable Member step by step. Mr. WHITBREAD said,• after what bad jnst fallen from the Noble Lord, lie no longer could doubt but that the letter of Prince Talleyrand was substantially true. When the period of explanation came, however, would the Noble Lord then give all 'the information he declared himself as pledged to give ? This was the true test.—( Calls of Order from several parte.) —He knew, indeed, that this was not the time to press a debate ; still it was impossible not to urge questions of this kind, which, although promised to be ultimately satisfied, were generally blinked at the last. Would the Noble Lord afford the explanation he promised, when the time came ? or, would he evade it ? He was content to wait for it, provided there was any chance of having such an explanation, and of being satisfied with it. nowt ESTISIATES IN THE COMMITTEE OP SUPPLY. On die motion of Mr. VESY FITZGERALD, the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply, when the following sums were voted to his Majesty, for the service of Ireland : For the expenses of the Board of Works, £38,500. For Stationery, dm in the Office of the Chief Secretary, and other Offices of the Lord Lieutenant, and for Allowances to Superannuated Clerks and Officers of the Castle, 5e14,788. For Proclamations in the Dublin Gazette, and other Papers In Ireland, £20,500. To defray the Expenses of Criminal Prosecutions, £25,000. To detray the Expenses of Apprehending Public Offenders, X 2500. For Expenses in the Port of Dublin, £1047. Fur Support of Nonconforming Ministers £9552. For Support of Seceding Minitters o f th e Synod of Ulster, £2951. For the Salaries of Lottery Officers ' £2142. For Works done in improving the Harbour of Howth, X 50,000. For Printing several Volumes of the Statutes of Ireland, £3746. l'o the Commissioners for Improving Linen and Hempen Manufactures, to be applied a. they shalt see ht, .e2t,6:)0. Fur Building Churches and Glebe Howes, and lot Purchasing Glebe Lands, £lO ouo. To the Truvees and Commissioner of - First Fruits, to eitab:c tht nt to reywr Church.. and Chapels, .E4OOO. 'Fo the Commissioners of wide streets, £i9,lBn. For the support of Protestant Charter Schools, £11,590. Fur tar support of the Roman Catholiz Establish:mut at May nouth, J 9571 For defraying the expensea of the Commissioners of Charkable Donations and B.Aue,ts, £6OO Report of the Committee on Monday. IN‘PARY Vat) THE STATE OP Till CIVIL LIST. Mr. TIERNE.Y rose pursuant to a notice which he had given on a Comer evening, to move for a Committee to inquire into the state of the Civil List. He id it would not be necessary for him to rake up much of the time of the House on this su'ejeet, as the Right H in. Gentleman opposite (the Chimer:llor .of the Lae:ter:ger) did not mean to oppase having A ConimitLec appointed, hut he would trespass Is little on their time, in order tothew the great necessity there was of a strict examination, and of vesting the Com mittee with full powers to that effect. He observed, that the expences of the Civil List had of late years exceeded the annual estimates to an extravagant de gree, that several Committees, he believed five, had been appointtal since the year 1783 to examine into it, none of which had the effect cf givink the House and the country full infosmati3n on the subject, the reason of which was. their powers of investigation had been too limited; they had the annual estimates on one side, and the different hems of expense on the other, but they wanted that which alone would have eitailled them to see how far all these expencei were necessary, namely, xposter of examining persons, papers, and records. ''rte want of this power in the Committee, lie contended, would leave the Hattie totally in the dark as to the necessity of this great at. cumulation of debt on the Civil List, and they would have annually to vote large sums of the public money they knew not why not wherefore. After the many ineffectual attempts of several Committees to I make a regular estimate, it was Mr. Pitt who brought it forward, theugh the suggestion was made when bq was not in administration. It was then settled that the annual Civil List revenue, after relieving it from many hardens ahirh hung on it, should be .€9'r9,000. In a short time this estimate was ne gl, eted, and the Crown sullered to exceed it by large Annual sums withont any enquiry or miniinatioit. In the year 1812 a new estimate WAS made, if he could call that an estimate, which asLumed ihat it was ne cessary to be made on the average of the last seven years; in this average were included the sums by which the Civil List had exceeded the estimates of each year, so that it was then made 5e1,120,000,' which WAS an excess of 4123,000 above the foi neer eiiimate . . • The House would then perceive, that in every arrangement and every estimate - which was ' made, the sums were rising enormously, and yet they would find, that notwithstanding the great sum to which it was raise.] in 1012, the expellees had ex ceeded it in two years by no less a sum than £,;26,t 00. This lie hoped would justify him i.t cal ling en the House to appoint a Committee, with full powers to investigate the entire. lie would have the interior of the Household examined, not with a view of unnecessary curiosity, or creating ally disagreeable jealousies, but with a view to examine into the truth and see how many of those vast sums paid were ne cessary—(hear, hear,)—and also to see why it was that the Court could not supoort itself within the ;pits of the annual estimate. If the House could not accomplish this, they would in vain endeavour to kid a remedy for that evil, which was acknowledged to exist by every Committee that bad met on the subject. He begged to be understood as not wishing to restrict the comforts of the Crown, nothing was farther from his intention ; but be thought he served the Crown essentially when he went to give an esti mate for all that was necessary—(Hear, hear.,- 4n order to shew that the reduction of many of the lexpences of tbe . Household waapracticable, he world xefer the flouse to the espentes of the Lord Steward, 1 ill which t saving bad beat made within the last jest _ . of £515,000 if he were to have said then that this was practicable, he would have been gravely con tradicted, yet the fact, was so, and he contended could be so in many other departments of the Household, if similar economy were used.—(liter. ) —At the same time that this decrease was made in 'the expences of the Lord Steward, an increase was made in that of the Lord Chamberlain of £73,000, and in the department of the Master of the Horse of if334.,000 ; how this occurred he could not say, but certain it was, that it spewed the necessity of strict enquiry. He may he told that a sum of 30 or 840,000 was not worth making a motion about, but he would -remind did House that it was not these thirty and twenty thousands which made up the en ; tire of the sums they w e re called on to vote ; hundreds, if neglected, would rise to thousands, and thousands in the same way to millions, that this was a time when the most rigid economy was necessary, and that a single pound of the public money should not be misapplied. lie would not trouble the House by going into all the items of the Civil List expen diture; but asite was on the subject of unnealsary expence, he would mention the enormous sums which it cost Jiis country to support their Ambassadors at foreign Courts. Of these great sums, he was con winced that every pound received could be accounted for. He knew they were necessary to support the way in which they lived • but he would ask, was it ne ce s sary that they should live in this way f Was it at all secessary to the dignity of this country, that English AmbassadOrs should be the only persons tsr loreigu Courts to pay double fur what they had, and to keep a double retinue. 'lf this was necessary, then, indeed, we might well be called on for all these enormous sums. He also objected to our having an Ambassador at Lisbon at a vast expellee, when the Regent of Portugal was in the Brazil:, and had no intention of leaving it fur Europe —He then went on to shew the many other instances in which uuue cess.iry expcnce was incurred, and mentioned the establishment at Windsor as a strong one. He said the people of this country had been generous, almost to prodigality, in the sums voted to the Royal Fa mily, and all they received in return was, a vast Ac cumulation of debt, above the highest estimates that had been made out. He then concluded by moving —" 'fit at a Committee be :appointed to take into con 'sideratiun the Itepert laid before the House on the 10th of March last. by command of his Royal High ness the Pritice Regent, relative to the Civil List, and to rcpert the saute as it shall appear to them, with such ele.xteations as may seem necessary, and to have the pu:wer of examining persons, papers, and records, to that effect." The CIIANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that the Right Huts. Gentleman had only antici pated him in his intention of having a Committee to etamine into the state of the Civil List; yet he could not agree with him in undervaluing , the exertions made on this matter by former Committees; they, it was true, had nut dime all that was necessary, but they had done a great deal, and in that respect iv,re entitled to praise. He also agreed with the Right Hen. Gentleman, that the Crown should be sup ported by the generosity of the people, and that the people should be protected against the prodigality of the Crown; but he could not think . with him, that the increased expences of the Crown within the last few years were more than were abs•ilutely req uiredl l by the circumstances of the times. Ile then went on at consid:rabie h ngth to shew that the most part of what had been expended above the annual estimate of last year was already before the House, and the re mainder had gone for repairs at Ciatibourne Lo.lge, and for entertainments_ _given to the Sovereigns who visited this country. He could not see the necessity of that minute investigation which the motion called for; and concluded with moving, as an amend. meet, that the words 4 6 with power to send for per sons, papers, and records," be left out of the motion. Mr. WARD supported the original mot t ua, it was well known that the Civil List had increased to an enormous amount I and if the Committee had nut full powers, he was confident that the Minister would be obliged to conic down year atter year to that House with applications to make good its arrears. Above all things, he thought it necessary that an in quiry should be made into the l)roits of Admiralty. He wished to call the attention of the House to the enormous bills made out by the King's Proctor in the condemnation of ail captures; and it no step was taken to cure this great evil, it was his intention to call the attention of the House to the subject. Mr. BENNET conceived that the sort of Corn. mittee recommended by the Chancellor of the Excite.. quer would be completely nugatory. The Members of the Royal Earn ly received large sums of monev, and there was no.hing like the splendour of a Cour t kept up. The Honourable Gentleman next alluded to the enormous and foolish exi , euces incurred :it the tune of the Jubilee, which was a scene of vice and profligacy, and was highly injurious to the middle classes of people. He noticed the sum of £lB,OOO advanced to Sir Henry Wellesley while at Madrid. Mr. ROSE said, it was very true that the ex pences of the Civil List had increased lately to a very great extent, but he saw no occasion to give a power to a Committee to send for persons. Fur 16 years the expence of the Civil List had increased only to the amount of ,C1;0,0(X) a-year, and this might easily be accounted for by the increased prices of all the necessaries of life. Sir W 1 LLI A M CONG liEVE assured the House that the expences of the erections in the Parks did not exceed the sutra of £e3,003, and no deduction was made for the bt idge across the Canal. Lord MILTON conceived the Committee would be a mere dead letter if the powers moved for were not granted. Mr. II USKISSON fully agreed that it was abso lutely necessary to put a stop to those frequent appli• hations to Parliament; and above all things that there should be an end of =mistral payments. He jos tified the estahlishment of the ambaisy to Lisbon, which was perfectly conformable. to the rank of the Ambassador sent from the Court of Lisbon to this country. He could state it as a fact, that at the time tyre embassy went out, the Prince Regent of Por tugal was supposed to be on the point of his return to Europe, he having given an intimation to us of such an intention—but he changed his mind, and re itttighthteil Borna.ziFls.rienlie w Friend (Mr.as ass u. a ci L i s i r m ed in . g h ) o , w i e t v t e h r e , mthAlitnhedis i Court was not likely to be soon established at Lisbon, !Mold give u? his 1101aiona unless the Ovrtrunscnt . • should think fit to direct him to continue there longer. It was admitted that a great part of the ex. pence: of last year were occasioned by the rejoicings which took place, and upon this a great deal of severity bad been used.; but he would ask whether, after a war of complete success—(A laugh)—it was not tit that the people should be amused and made happy, in a way which had been usual at the end of all for mer wars ? and the people were on this oceeaozi amused at the cheapett possible expence. Mr. BENNETT and Lord MILTON expleined. Mr. HENRY MART IN opposed the Amendment, as tending to take away the: only power the Committee could p asess with any advantage to the country. Mr. LONG desired Gentleneei to consider the it:- Crease that 11. ii taken phea: In all the eecesserit sei life, and then asked it any eatraordi:tat y expeese Lea beea incurred, ',Oki' might not ba accouLted fur ?-- The Committee would hive pipers and &comer/v. beeure them, and ii mote intcrination should be re quited, it would tie very easy to move in the Huey. tor the attendance of any particular person they wise. ed to examine. Mr. CA I.CRAFT strong', owned the enctien. It WAS necessary for the popul catty of the Crown. -- (Hear, h:.w.)--It was ne:ciary that the Croeer abould be rie.pecteJ in the eyes ef the Public, seek!, could not be d ate without a system of economy tha: s hould i. feture prevent thee: 4.l.sgracctul iteplicazie... to Perliernent. Lord CASTLE REA C:I mild not cer e .:ez a more iaquisiteriel e receedine, or elle that ten.! ei . throw more odium on the COVill, than the ..rut.. application now made to the House—an appi fee, , that could answer no one useful purpose. The lie: must reeueect Mat the Crown had many yree. :e., given up its hereditary revenue, which was an it.. provable income; and he was eoaviaced it that re.e.. nue had continued in the !lanes et th • Crown to this day, it would be so large as to ireclude the necessity et any naZire applications. The income given te the Crown in lien of the hereditary revenue had become deficient in consequence of the progressive iucr 'ate of all necessaries, and was it to be said that the Crowe should be placed in a situation of diili.:cl:). which no private, Gentleman was placed in ? The increased expenditure of the Civil List might be found in two departments: first, in that to which Lc belonged ; and secondly, in the Lord Chamberlain's department. As to Ministers abroad, and the expenses they were supposed to have incurred, he Assured the House, that the English Ministers et futeisii Ceurte did not live in a selendour equal t... tee' ...Lies:teed by the Ministers of Courts Lie lag a lower estinie,Ler in the world than ours.— And as to the expence of receiving the foreign Sese reigns in this country, he assured the Heise, that the expences i tared by the Emperor of Austria for receiving the Monarchs at Vienna were much greater than any we had incurred. h .:- the Noble Led justified the expences incurred by Lee - I Aberdeen, on the gieuad et teas being sent on an embassy which mule it necessary for him to he constantly moving from one place to another. As to the income sheet to Mr. Canning on his etem,sy t , t Lisbon, it War Ile: greeter than had generady I.eett ail , weld to other Ata. bessadors. The Right H in. Gentleman complained a the practice of sending General Oilicers on vie eions. He sees confident no men were more fit tar such situatioes than those Officers, because they were enabled to procure informeeen on military inetters which inferior Officers never could procure. As to the expellees of Sir Henry Wellesley, at Madrid, he would state, that the whole of his personal expences did not exceed £14,000 a-year. There Witt no Court in Europe at which we had not a /*Glister at this time; and these were the causes of the inCreAs-d ar• rears on the Civil List. On the whole, the H a;. Gentleman had made out no case to call for sect, .i: inquiry as he demanded. Mr. WHITBREAD said, if no case had leer made out, the case might be altogether given up a - : hopeless, and it would be as well to appoint nu Cum mittee at all. As to the proposition et applying tr. the House for the attendance or any individual, it we absurd ; and it was childish to expect met the House would agree to any such motion. The amendment proposed was worse than purgatory, because it wile be an escape for the Minister, by which he doeild Ft': away from all enquiry on the Civil Let. ".'.'' .-: ' ik Lord talked of the glorious times when the Kings ter England had their hereditary revenues; but did ii: not recollect that out of these revenues all the ex penses of the State were paid ; that when they want ed inure money they came to Parliament ; no that one King lost his head for pressing fur tot much money ? if the expenses for entertaininE the foreign Sovereigns were not so great as thus. at Vienna, he would ask who paid those expense but We people, whom the Noble Lord never seem ed to take into his consideration ? An Honourable Gentleman who once talked in that House of eco nomy before he became Surveyor of Woods an.. Forests, now made very light of all the expenses it curred by the Court ; the dispense of a bridge nothing; a thousand pounds for horses was tic in his mind. While talking of horses, he had . a circuruetence which he must state to the House, When General Blucher was in this country, be A present to the Prince Regent of a very fine the horse that had carried him through all ;reigns; this horse, which one would suppose to be pampered and suffered to live at his ease, now, as he understood, drawing a dung• Hampton-Court.—(4 loud laugh.) Mr. B. BATHURST, at some length, the motion. Of this he was confident, that revenue cat the Crown remained as in the Charles 11. it would have accumulated tar the demands now made upon it. Mr: TIERNEY replied, turning the at of Lord Castlereagh into ridicule. Mr. W. SMITH wished the expences of i try to be squared by its tesoutces. Sir T. ACKLAND was in favour of the O. any eues iin where a difference might tween the crown and the pc:pie, tile 1,.;11' not be wanting in the sils.n.trge of what considered its especial duty, perticulirly pe pie were likeiy to be called on fur new Silt The House then divided, when there appeared' Ars - 94 Notts - . 127 . Majority against the Motion .4—•••• The Motiva, at amended, was then agreed Adjourueti at Chte Q'clock s till hiv.idal• o{-44.11 ....- Imp:Aim' rs on p.), lore fit tor they we:e ry matters v. As to laclrid, lie 1 expences s no Court ster At tl.is treats. d ar. tti H ivy suc~~ .t 3 had Ler, ;teen up ira 111 nu Cum tc lual, it WA: tne Hourt imendment is it wotW should ger N . )1: he Kings at but did iu s all the ex• they want . meat ; ano ag fur tot entertaiainE eat as thus. Ise expenst never seem lionourabl ouse of ert) Woods an. expenses it bridge WA was nodun! to had heat , he House. — he mad y fine hoof all his cam i ppose ouch his ease, a . . 1 lung-cart igth, resists. that had es the tiny: t: t a r boyoll' e argumen'• of the cog F the inquir! ight arise et . ~:use s 1 " 111 " hat in g.it b , .ly w sacrihces. appeared-- 94 127 SS greed t)'