Star. — London, England, 1815-02-23 00:00:00

a nntnber of Iters. this be tclusiderecl ditanStverall Gentletnen, who. was perfectly .csinversant witl tl• h subject; -tavola admitted , that, at no distant pe ' ri•scl, 'the rate of expenses sawn fall. In speaking oft tn.l evidence given before the Committee; he wished" ;,, observ ,- . that he scarcely recollected one•person,l of whom similar qtsestions were'asked, who did - not lett= the same answer as was given by Mr. Webb ; and yet, wben asktd.about the propriety of having a l.igh projecting duty. Simony of them qualified .their statements by referring to the prices which at present existed ; though they bad peeaioUsly admitted that this increased rate of charge could not long exist.--1 Now, he hoped no person wouldutlpport this propo-I shim for a protecting price 'of IN. who was not pre-1 rate d to s liew that the rate of agricultural expensesd, was likely to remain ai high' as it had been for some *ears past. This avasehe only part of the handsomel upeo ing of the Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Robinson) which lab thought defective. He ba.i proposed a protecting price of 80s.; but be had not, accoluraliitd that proposidee with say reasons, f oun ded 00 a view of the probable future eipenses of the farmer, to justify it. They had been gravely told that the rent had nothing to do with the price', of corn. How did this assertion stand, upon exami nation ? They would perceive, by the evidence, that. , Mr. Brodie, a Scotch farmer. stated, that he paid; 0000 per annum for his land. He told them, be sides, that some years ago be only. paid £2OOO for it.i His land had risen from 26 shillings to five pounds; per acre ; and tracks in hiszeighbourhood had been! let as 1ii.411 as £6. 7s. and even AS. an aere. Alms! would it be •coatended, if Mr. Brodiv's rent wevei reduced to e/000, the sum -at which hilt far 'was! let a few years age, chit such a reduction erould! have no cake' on the price of his produee? Sup.' posing 80 shillings the price, let the House look to' , what came to the landholder. He. nu in average., I.:ceived one fourth of the gross produce (perhaps cm I...nds easily tilled one-clad, but on heavy soils, milt t ge.tifth) the farina eeceived one-fourdi, and charges amounted to onehalL. If die landholder put him sch back to the situation in which he was aome few years ago, he would; istteld of hiving 20s. on one quarter, be entitled to 10s. ; for no gentleman would attempt to argue that any thing more WAS intended than to give the farmer-van oppottunity of growing corer at a fAir and jnst profit. Surely no Member of Parliament would say, because adventitious cir. cunistances had occasioned a rise in the rent of L that a Legislative rneastwe . shcold be intro i:J.:cd to bolster up and continue a* increase rroduced in this meaner. All that the Paella- Meta were called upon to do was, to enact such r.e.,sures as would permit the agriculturalist to gt ow corn with a just and•wellulated pro fi t..- Irons we tenant's profit one.f oorth might be de. dacted, amounting' to Ss.:-and taking also from the item of- expense, one.fourth, or 10s. the ogee. gate reduction would amount to 25i. which ta k ee kw SO& would leave corn at 555. per quarter.— tut it the land•owner could not go so far back, then let the farm which formerly brought only 11,000, and was now let at 62,00 A), be reduced to £1,500, which would bring the price of corn from .toGt a. per quarter. He conceived that he had wry clearly *awn the propriety of deducting con sideriuly fredethe charges, ati well us flom the pro fits of agricoltund bustneiWo-and he was awe :kat part of his -argument which related to the Imam cfivibion of the subject, would be Won& seppsetedr; if Gentlemen • would • compare the fainter" of other days with the farmer of the present.—lf yeas went into a fat m-house some years ago, the owner was happy if be could place before you a tan. ,rd of Ale - but now, you beheld not merely a bottle of P•rs, but a bottle of Madeira to accompany it.-- (1/ear.)—He would be the last man to animadvert on the circumstances of any inditidual ; but he never could sanction an application which went to perpe tuate that which had arisen out of adventitious tir ctunstancei. The WO. Gentletban here adverted to the evidence, to chew that the importation price oi l 80s. which the Report of the CoMmittee recommefi. ded, was opt-justified by, the statements of the wit ces:cs examined before them. Two Gentlemen had declared 755. and one had stated 725. to- be a %WS tie,a pace. After several other observationa, tend. ing to prove, that, if the importing price were placed at 80s. the rate of the quarter of corn, though it might be a little under that sum, would always be hoveri,i ahout it, he proceeded to state, that he would firs: nolve, that there should be inserted, in the Resolution thi s before the House, which went to prevent importation, weitiithe home produce arrived at bUs. " for a time to be limited," leaving the stun to be substituted for 80s. as a subject of after-cone. &rate n. Those who thought that no alteration should take place, would, of codrse, vote against the moue& Those, on• the contrary, who differed at to the amount of price, but who conceived that a tem porary measure was preferable to a permanertutiea T i ght vote with him, without binding themselves wale*. He then moved, as an einendment to the fourth Resolution, that the. woe& a for a time to be! limited," be iiiierted. Lir. PRESTON ofsierare‘-drae, in supeorting the original inotioe, his great object was to unite •the country as productive as possible, and to provide con= cant empLynient for the labouring poor. Misch ob tLquy had been levelled against the Landholders; 'set he would contend, that no class ref Society were more moderate in their demand 3 or cherished mot* ''atriotic views than they did. The best thing which; t:ould be done, was for the country to depend Vole uwn produce. To make the soil productive, Was the right and only mode of making bread cheotts the arniet rich, and the nation prosperout. Those who laid otherwise, either did not understand the subject, g were indocasi, for sinister purposcs, to mislead the The cares of the farmer exceeded those of 'Ay other wan, and be saw not why he was to be -acrificed for the sake of making others tich. If thie j l manufacturers wanted advice, let them consult him I -'s theit friend, and he would tell them where their in. 7 est lay ; without fee or r eward. He would tell icm that their interests depended upon the apical. kitiffits, anti that if the one was destroyed, the `•thc r mu.' necessarily follow. None but insidions teen coultilsted a different doctrine.— (Cries of C4air). *--1 - 1e did not care one farthing what might be said Ott opposition to this observation; he spoke conscien. , • it.uslt, meant nut to allude lo spy particular ineb4oal, but adverted generally to the principle he orposed.—(Hear s how l some it '•might het *adores( katittotoui 'to iittourietphi .ments.iu the. w a y oflthehesbandman,lesause labobr would betronie cheap. Prom this, It was trust 'Ma. nufactarers might •obtain sothe benefit---but it was hardly necessary .to sayollat if too many individuals were devoted tome vials, the whole must be dis. tressed. And, in the event of a war, what was to become of these people.? How were they to be em pleyed ? They could•obtain no employinent;- , they, Linnet starve, and starve they 'would, if .means were, .not taken Ito protect the Garner against the toreigni agriculturist. (Hear, hear.) In conclusion, he bergedi to disclaim any thing like a selfish'view in favour of the Landed interoet ainne—it was the interests of the 'public at large which he wished toconsult, end thqsel interests would be best consulted by acceding to the; ticsolutions which had been sabtnktied to the Houst.i. Sir FREDERICK "FLOOD ekpressed his stir.' prise that the Gedtlemen who had spoken ;that night . h.id ;seen totally silent with respect to Ireland —a; couriN y whidh, he repeated, was of theUtmosi impot-1 'anise to the welfare of this kingdom. He rose in consequence of the sentiments declared by a meeting; of a great county, of which be was the represents-, tive—a meeting which was highly respectable, ancV which consisted of lay, spiritual, honourable, and lather agricultural men. --(Lesrearee.)—These indivi duals wished to see the interest of the mandfacturer identified with that of the agriculturist—they saw no separate inter,st between these Classes of society, and he. as a Member 'of the' Inipetial Parlianient, would, not advocate the one without advocating the cau l of.the . other. • In fact, he:thought be was not the "filead bf 4114 one,, who Wes not the real friend of the ether. He thought it right to state, that tbe impor tation of corn from Ireland to this country, from re founded on the hest authority, had amounted, in eleven 'earl, to the value of ',lll,ooo,ooo—and that, In return, the people of Ireland had taken iftS,ooo,ooo in mattufacturtni which, added to the other-aids givem by that country to this, he thought, entitled it to the utmost protection. Ireland and England, in fact, were united in one common cause, and the interests of die one were inseparable from those of the other.—( Near, hear.) Lord BINNING said, that after the clear midi able manner in which his Right Hoa. Friend (Mr., Robinson) had introduced this question, he did hope! Gentlemen tcould have abstained from considering it as a party question. - He was sorry to observe, that some Gentlemen, however, had used intim)- , matory language, which was calculated to affect all the different orders of the community, and to lead to unfounded and improper conclusions of the real object of the measure under consideration.— The Noble Lord then proceeded, at considerable length. aad with great ability, to contend, that the interest of the Manufacturers was closely combined with that of the landholders ; and that if the latter were not protected, the consequence to the country. at large would be destrucjive and sJbversive of that prosperity which, through the medium of the encou- ' ragement heretofore given to the agriculturist, had crowned the arduous contest in which we bad been engaged. There was an old saying, descriptive of the prosperity of the country, to which he could not: help alluding—he 'swim, " the plough, the loom,, and the soil." The plough was put first, because it i was considered the great source of the success of the others. He would ask, c.va.s it now..flesaut to &gr.* : Mat plough If it was. he did not hesitate to say, that the downfall of our manufactures and our com merce must follows and with this impression on his mind, he fully accededlo the Resolutions which had b...en proposed. Mr. GEORGE ROSE said, it was impossible for him, from the state of his health, to trespass lung on the tit= of the Committee; yet the anxiety which he felt upon this subject induced him to offer a few words. An Honourable auttleman, who had ad dressed. the House early in the evening, had said, for the second time, that he (Mr. Rose) had changed his opinion upon this subject. The truth of this as. sertion he denied; and whatever were his opinions, they were unbiassed by any other than the interests of his country: He could not agree that France of forded those facilities for the ezpGrtation of coin to which some Gentlemen bad alluded; nor could he agree that France would ever become a great ex porting count y. The last year had been redundant, and !mice the supply which had been afforded—but that such a supply could be procured in future, he did not think likely. As far as his voice went he isl,ea to prou:ct Atte grower of corn, but when he l: ad done that he would give every facility to the consumer, • All he had heard and read of the opi k pions of the Committee upon this subject had not al- I tered, but coi.firuied the scntiinerits which be had before delivered. The Right Hontinrahle Gentle. man : then proceeded to take a review of the evidence which 114 been given before the last Committee. tlt Ind been said that the witnesses had, in no in. below 80s. as a protecting price, but hid frequently gone - beyond that sum. He did not meanto accuse Honourable Gentle:nu of W inten rional• inaccuracy, yet he was bound to say that s statement was not borne out by facts—as, t tlii•inigliout the whole report, no one of the sur .veyors who • had been sent to inquire into the case, had 'Said the price ought to be above Sus. but one, and this Gentleman partook of the mixed character of farmer and surveyor--be meant hlr. - Eastern, who said the price ought to be 965.; .. but even, he said, if taxes and other charges were re ;duFed, the price would fall back to 645. The other witnerses fluctuated between 755. and SOL and were ;not, as had been said, generally in favour of 1305. Be contended that it was perfectly inconsistent to talk of Bt;s. He would at the same time admit, that it the grower was oppressed, agriculture was also re. pressed ; but from all he had heard, during the exa mination, from 7'2s. to 765. would afford full mum neration.—(thar, hear). —To shew the unsettled views on this subject which prevailed, let them refer to an antecedent period of • only eighteen months, when ,141 s. was stated to be the only price which could pro. wet the agrkulturist.--(kHearohear).—This price was then 'received almost with unanimity ; and yet within a smatl•space the tole was reduced to the present standard. Tile Right Honoura ble Gentleman cop. eluded by painting out the evil consequences which the constant fluctuation of the markets created during a cansidaribl i. per i o d. The grower was entitled to protection, and "so was die constimeta—but neither to an wont incompatible with the public ' 2441 1 0312416/411/livks . rif'diiinio Udine 'proposed to tisteCiallibittee 'were proper, awl as such, he felt them Atakbd tti ble'ropptnt. (Near. Whatever unpopolstity may ittikh to this opinion— strange as It may appear, that urrpoitilatity *clad h to him an additionatrstason why he should give thou -Resolutions hit support--(Nebo:) • When the Algiers, with whom* wet ihisiot generallyto content upon adverse Ones, eame forward, as out the resent occasion, they did, %with altienurefrauglo with ge neral, though 'to Inarly Unpithweittoe, consequences, die would 'be ashamed of hinitelf, if, thinking that lite:note aright one, he *roll advantagedf whatever .ostpopolartty met attach to it, to -withhold the con 4litrreace of .hitraid to 'promote a common object-in ninth they fortrilotesly' agreed— (7.,stil trier eNeur.), Itervote which he 'meant to give, was not one de-: iltacediroin partial' calculations oidetail, but from a Vries' of general iprinciples ; first, .that no country so Rt tat and auspicious in wealth and *station as this, old evertor an instant admit•into 'her policy, that ti to main subsistence of )het •people should under Any tnriomstances be dependent upon a Foreign Power. ilowever true it .may be, that perfect freedom of tlonwnerce should eitia among 'iutions in general, Mend even among individual's in particular; it was yet equally *true, that in almost every instance it was im possible this equalky could practically subsist, and even if it wereposibk it 'an d that in this par tteitlar ease its practicability was manifest, still he lealkittontend it would 'be unwise to adopt it upon Itte present occasion —(Near.) How was it possible 111 corttnend this equality so londly sought for ? libuld 'they Galley thennehes that they could coin: *sand the future concurrence of foreign legislations,l ets as to leave a safe chance of their not being exposed to a complete state of dependence ?—()Tcar.) As little was it possible for them to establish a perfect equality in system between the farmer and the ma nufacturer. The one bad as good a 'right as the other to the Legislative protection of his property.—' (Vries of hear.) When the commercial interests cease to seek this protection, it would then be time for the farmer to do the same ; but he would affirm, that of all classes in society, those who labour in agriculture ought to be the most favoured by the Legislature— and were entitled to a greater portion of considera tion. than any other branch of the community.—• (Cries of .Hear.) N. man respected and honoured, more than he did, the manufacturing interests lef the country, but as far as these regarded the peace and war of the country, they were subordinate to the agricaltnral. (Near.) So far as he (Mr. Poasonby) regarded the moral character of the people (no mean consideration in a general question) this interest stood far superior to that of the in tnufacturing body. If he looked to the resources of war, or we continua tion of peace, the greater benefit was striking—a hardier and a bolder race sprung from agricultural. pursuits. Considerations flioNing torn this view in duced his preference. (Near.) ft had been said, in one of the views which wag taken of this subject, that would increase the price of rent. He (Mr. Pun sonby) was not ashamed ti's avow that it may so operate good consequence would, even from this, have its effect, for the farmer would he enabled cc maintain a comfort app.:rim sting to that in his days of greater prosperity. Aid woul'l rued Mr. Ponsonby) no rod result - melee: from this comparative independence of the farmer diem weld; fet it the other classes in so ciety conceived that they were denied the benefit which the farmer and the gentleman pes4essed, they must slat their eyes to an obvious roreeiren:ea—lor if the farmer and the gentleman were not the put chmers of she manufacturer's ptodtice, he should be glad to know who were ?--()Tear, heir.) No greater mischief cauld arise, than by propag stiez an °Onion that the two classes of the comniutiay had opposite or separate interests.--( Cries of Rear, kar.)—There was, in point of fact, a positive identity between beh. It was impossible to improve agriculture, without in fusing into manufacture, particularly in a country like this, the benefit of the advantage. In some small states, in ancient times, and in some few (very few) of modern, this effect may not be apparent ; but in a nation like theirs, the one interest could not possess resources independently of the other—and the true property of both would always be fonnd reciprocal. Near, herr.) —There was another View of the pies. tion—its 'consecutive increase of rents. He (Mr. (Ponsonby) wai aware that some writers on political economy' had stated, that increase of rents involved increase of the prices oaf labour and food. The absurdity of man never advanced a more absurd po. sition, in the sense in which it had been applied. Rent 'wreathe Surplusprodure of the farmer, notliiiig more, that is, what he paid to the proprietors after deducting the incidental expenses of the soil, the amount of the productive nature of his farming. Pro 'dustion, was, in fact, national wealth; the more the • farmer can produce, the higher he can pay: for who would.vetiture to assert that a country increasing in this ratio, was not advancing in prosperity ).(Crier !g bear.)—He their adverted to the state cif Ireland, and confessed that •her state weighed heavily with 'him, ass consideration like the present. She never cOuldnow become a manufacturing country, at least comparatively with this. He need not state the cause. He would, however, say, (and he meant no invidious retrospection) that the power of England had been for 600 years , levelled at her depression, foolishly indeed for the one country, as it *al cruelly oppressive for the other, and the bitter consequence was, that the resources of Ireland had been converted into unaatural channels. It were 'Auto dwell upon this reoollection.• The artiebei of Union had, how. ever, Ird at rest the possibility of Ireland's being a manufacturing country she can be an agricultural one, and from her etercise of this becupation, can meet and aid the eonsuersption of Ilithesh Manufac tures... 4 New, hear ).—The low of hie Hen. Friend (Sir 1. Newport), not long since tinseled, for the free importation of grabs into thin Omar, NOM Ireland,'l bad done more for the general benefit of the whole empire. than any public law bed elkoted since the' Navigation Acts—(NN" Lesr.)—Look to the fact...i see the supply of toed this country has received by that auspicious memmrei—and would may Gentleman who beard him, prefer that such a channel of inlet , course should take Marmite Ii the geltic iii peefe renwhicceh to ols . t oinus he nearer and an da dm oni ore a i r m ad lediate opening He swims he wand Se, fully bessit (Letof int that chrer: h . e ) time. hue et length gem by whet the fitisehievous nod* of replan 141 (Mr. „. -. m -•-'4lleit_r_i” liiiiiiiintA n *odd -is la - sloe. a,s i the tßesit* of tittitnd, with the necess Irk informaiiion appended to the q, to the tontiderstion And adjastatentoi the Bri tilh Representatives in .P.arliament, as be would to . that of ahy otber'boily composing a part of the Le. - gislature of the Enipire—(owl and continued cheat ! ) The Right Honourable Gentleman her e referred so 'the calculating data regulsting 111.! Truport2ti .n p:i9e if grain ; a;id in his °onion, the stsndard fel' 80i. w4s alone the'fair .retnunerat on—(l7ar.l—His . sriew of :the question lea him to accept that price, and ...it no Other, he thodght, couLl .1 safe rotection be relit d ..n. 'His lion. 'Friend .( Xr. floring for wli:,se talents and i information upon this, as on al other sttlj-cui, he fek not only the highest respect, hut •dmir.ittnn,-( F/ear) hid started o f .I;lTerent fr.rn Lis (4r. Ponson by's)—but he could not concur in the nations which characterized his Honourable Friend's view of the subject—indeed he thought they were p.culi.uly un fortunate. The limitation and reducing scale were particularly objectionible—i or went would be their direct op:ration ? 'Nothing less than this—that the farmer would be told, for a certain time, and no longer, his interest was worth consaassitien. If he was entitled to any lid at 41, to be eirective it should have a prospect of permanency—(Near, hear)—of else the agriculturist would net tempt his woe' tO so fluctuating a security— (Hear, hear)—h:, would not Incur the risk of sulking his property in a pursuit, the rewartrel`f which night be ilitercepted by a foreigner at the! moment when the British grower was seeking the air ta:muneration of his embarked capitol and inciiistrt.--'--(Crisr Hear s tha c , :erse of discussion, it had been said that the measure in contemplation would make food dearer tor the people—(Hear, hear,)—and that the Legislature ought to view with caution a proposition tendrogiO such a consequence. He admitted they should do in, as far as was reasonable and consistent with the public weal, and with such other regelatioes as they were bound to regard. He would even adn.it that a necessary result, flowing from the. present motion, would be, that probably on the very day of its adop tion, an increase of price in food would Like place. But he would utterly deny that suchaa 18:11101:Mi effeCt would aria —(Hear ) On the contrary, the standard would affix a re a ulating price, which would prevent that fluctuating value. so preattaut with evil, and would, by steady market. in the Lourse of time, cow enunibus annis, and bang tile staple artical cf lood a fair and . proper equivalent, even and reciprocal. He utri_ I d therefore implore the House not to ad mit the fallacy, that two distinct interests were at variance in the plaint discussion. The great body of the consumers slr uld know, that to the labour of sgriculture they must owe that constant and unilorm supply of subsistence which alone could be ensured by a fair and adequ ee compensation. For these reasons he should give his cordial assent to the Reso lutions which bad berg prepofi::d. (Loud Che.w.) Mr. WaiITBREAD s id, he here' 'lowa be excused hi derivetiog it as his that the eili cacy of legisarion in thin wiestion had been much or:r-rAteti. As to the relict Mach the termer woo* receive frs n n it, : that was perfeetly nugatory at the ',resent moment ; and as td tree fu.ure it would Oa be so test At was.expected. With regard to what had fallen from an Honouralide Friend id* Isis. he must say, that be th.myht a coineeiiiity, to weich be (Mr. W.) belonged. -Lad beets rather hardly dealt with by him, as ,tll as by the Right Honeuthide the Chancellor of the Exchequer, on a forint, even ing. The iepro ich the had been cast upon lheos (most unni •eitediy, tie metal say) he itoped now to do ;way, ha informirg his H.oroiurahle Friend:nod t h e Hou se that the rice 01 beer had been Inwereill that day —(Hear, ii.;%:r).--n:)t in consequence of the threat of the et the Exchequ r, or the clamour out of doors, but in conaluenee art certsitl measures that hid been taken. and which v...tited to he put in execution only t;11 it wis iciowit what were to be the plans of the !tight H.vi. n. The price would have been lowered bea)re, h :d those plan; been known betore. He bad freeitlett that day xt A Meeting of tradesmen, where Ole proposition had been received with as much unetionity end good bu• morn, as the House had received the 411;404,6w tree had just given them. Before he discussed, the sulbject s • he wished to advert to what had bean said of the great profits of brewers. The price lot a barrel of beer was 15s. more at pres.nit than it Wes in 1761, and of those 1.53. Government took eleven; while the real increase of profit upon every pa of beer to the brewer, comparing the r - csent periol w ith t.i it of 1761, was oniy about the low-firth of nut halt penny. (Hear, hear.)—And yet, it the Right Han. Gentleman mould take away the meta; a e , iLetv-•! s would be most happy to sell their h"er hoer. Having thus vindicated them, be would nevi vindicate the landowners and farmers. It bad been seal, arid most unjustly, that the presert measure was a combi. nation soneng the great landed proprietars to keep up the rents of tire country at a most exorbitant rate.— It Was no such thing (hear, hear) ; or if it were, in deed, a combination, it was a combination to prevent the depreciation of rent beyond its just value, and with it, the depreciation of all other property. Th e amnia!' that had been raised against high rents was a most Unfounded and a most unwise clamour. and bad always excited his indignatioe. Taking the dOnntry through, the rents had not been raised be -fond What they ought. according to existing circum. Stances, arid it should never be totg.tten, that the landed htsiliests was inseparable from our con!. prhiperity. With regard to the witnesses drat frog been examined, It was difficult to draw day flied conclusions from their evidence, as they were all called to answer a particular purpose.— He felt at every step the difficulty of legislating upon the subject, anti the more he considered it the more he was convinced that no plans of legislation could accomplish what was anticipated. When the price of bread was high, the popular feelings blinded the judgment ; and be could remember when it was the fas Mon of the times, countenanced too Ly the then Lord Chief Justice of England, to attribute it all to the acts and practices of forestallers, regraters and middlemen. It was now, however, a time when the people might be told that the forestaller, the regrater. and . the middlemen were doing more good in their private dealings than could be dome by all the plans for public granaries and ware h ouses . The middleman was always the frieud of the people. He collected corn during a time of cheapness to tell it out during a time of dearness ; and it in his sarcu letkitts be sornetimes went beyond the mark, he re..