Star. — London, England, 1824-04-10 00:00:00

present situation. The Honourable Member must be Tare that the prosecution had not originated with the reasury, nor been carried on on their behalf, but en tirely for the individuals who laid the information. It was his intention to propose the repeal of the prohibition to import French kid gloves, by which much of the in convenience complained of might probably be removed. If the Petitioner, had only imported the leather from France, and had the gloves male here, he should con ceive that they would net come under the description of the articles prohibited ; and it was, he apprehended, incumbent on the party who made the seizure to prove that they were contraband, which he should conceive must have been done to the satisfaction of the Jury in this case, or a verdict could not have been given against the Petitioner. Sir NI. NV. RIDLEY asked whether any alteration had been made within these three years in the fees paid to Special Juries in the Exchequer, by which the practice formerly existing of paying two guineas when the ver dict was for tl:e Crown, and only one guinea when it was for the defendant, had been done away ? Mr. Secretary PEEL said, the practice alluded to by the Honourable Baronet had been altered, and the same fee wac now paid in every case. Mr. HUME asked the Right Honourable Gentleman how he could reconcile with the principles of equal and impartial justice, the rule which regulated the difference between the fees paid to Special Juries and those paid to Common Juries ? Mr. Secretary PEEL said the subject to which the lion. Member alluded embraced a question of the most complicated and important nature, the discussion of which he thought it would be better to avoid until the Bill for regulating the impanelling of Special Juries should be before the House.—The Petition was received. blr.G. BENNET moved for an account of the number of Dollars exported to New South Wales, in the years 1821, 1822, and 1823 ; together with a copy of an or. der issued by the Government of that Colony for regu lating the currency, dated May, 1821. The Honourable Member took this opportunity of making some remarks on the present state of the currency of the Colony of New South Wales, and to complain of the loss entailed On individuals by the system which prevailed, of stamp ing dollars, and issuing them at a sum above their value, and then calling them in at the real value. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER agreed that the present state of the currency in this and the other Colonies was one which could not be suffered to continue. The subject was under the consideration of his Majesty's Government, and he trusted a measure would be adopted for remedying the evil in a very short time.—The motion was agreed to. TIIE SALT TAX. Mr. CUR WEN then moved for an Account of the quantity of Salt u.ei for agricultural purposes in the years 1818, 1819, 1820, 1821, 1822, and 1823, distin guishing each year. He trusted the Salt Tax, in com pliance with the pledge given by the House, would be allowed to expire. If it was not, he should always re gret that he had not, on a former occasion, pressed the entire repeal, for he had no doubt, that had he done so when the reduction was made in the duty, the Govern ment' of that day would have given way. Mr. LEICESTER also expressed his hope that Par liament would not forfeit its pledge on this subject.— The motion was then agreed to. Mr. ELLICE presented a Petition from an individual complaining of the monopoly enjoyed by the English Distiller.—Mr. CURIE'S supported the Petition. Mr. HUME complained of the inconvenience and in jury which arose from keeping up the duty on West India Rum. He also strongly condeno.ed the system of monopoly given to the English distillers, by which they were enabled to take half a million of money annually out of the pockets of the Public to put into their own. The keeping up the high duties had the effect of keeping down consumption. The consumption in Ireland had fal len within a few years from 700,000 to 17,000 gallons. Mr. L. FORSTER said the Honuarable Member was misinformed as to the consumption in Ireland.—Mr. HUM a said he spoke from documents in his possession.- I%lr. BRIGHT complained of the heavy duty which, be said, was above 1000 per cent. Mr. ELLICE wished to know when the Chancellor of the Exchequer intended to bring up his Report of the Resolutions of last night. One thing he must state, and that was, that unless these was an intention to permit rum to be used by the rectifiers, he would strenuously oppose the proposition. The taking off a duty of 13id. a gallon would be no relief—it was a delusion. He must complain of the supineness displayed by the West India Interest to their own concerns during the present Session. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, he had last right stated his opinion that the proper 'course would be to agree to the Report of the Resolu tions to-night, to allow a Bill to be brought in, and take the debate on one of its stages. As to the want of energy, and the supineness of the %Vest India Interest, he had nothing to do with it. With respect to the boon of which . the Honourable Gentleman talked, he had never consi dered it as such ; and he had told the West India Gen- tlemen that they over-rated it; and if there was a tat lacy, it Was one of their raising, and not of his. Ano ther point, to which the Honourable Gentleman had alluded was, the permission to the rectifiers to use rum.l fie had already given his reasons against that measure, he feared throwing the whole system i;tto confusion. If Gentlemen would suffer him to follow his plan steadily and progressively, he was convinced he should be able to give fifty times the relief to the West Indies which he should be able to do if these speculative measures were pressed upon him. After a few words from slr. 11E:tliAL acid Mr. it. alas, the Pe tition was ordered to lie on the table. SUPPLY. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved that the Report of the Committee of Supply be brought . u p.__ Mr. BROGDEN brought up the Report. Mr. HUME objected to the vote to the Kildare- street Society in Ireland, for the Education of the Poor of that country. He said while the Scripture was made a • school-book, the Catholic Clergy would never be ,atis . fled that proselytism was not intended. From his own experience in the Lancasterian schools, he knew that a great difference of opinion existed in this country on the point of making the Scriptures a school-book. He did not consider it necessary to decide whether opinion either way was just, but wished the money to be applied in the manner that would best promote the good edu cation of the people of Ireland. Mr. BUTTERWORTH said, that the Hon. Member for Aberdeen was certainly incorrect in his statement, that any controversy had existed in England, whether the Bible should be distributed with or IA ithout notes. He applauded the exertions of Mr. Alien in favour of the education or the poor, *and pariieularly praised his Scriptural Lessons, introduced throughout Russia, under, the sanction of the Emperor. He maintained , that knowledge without morals was injurious to society, and read a passage from a Roman Catholic Petition upon the table, where it was said, that it was not wise nor safe to put the Bible, without explanation, into the hands of youth. He put it to the House whether the scripturally educated poor of England, or the uneducated poor of Ireland, were the best members of society. In his opi nion, the Petition to which he had referred, contained a gross libel on the Word of GOD. Mr. HUME said, he did not wish that the popula tion of Ireland should be brought up without religious knowledge, nor did the Catholic Clergy desire it—they only objected to have that religious knowledge com municated by persons who entertained religious opinions different horn their own. On the motion of the grant for a Picture Gallery, Mr. HUNIE asked, was anything to be done to ena ble the public to visit the monuments in Westminster Abbey without expense? Those monuments were the -pirblic property, and it appeared that certain persons had assumed a right of taxing the public for seeing them, and even of selling that right to others. This was a subject of general complaint in this country, and also by foreigners who visited us, and ought to be remedied. Mr. WYNN said, that formerly the admission was 6d. —but now '2s. were exacted : he, however, knew of no re medy—he knew of nothing that the Executive could do. Sir J. WROTTESLEY denounced the exaction of fees from those who merely wished to pass through the Abbey as paltry and scandalous. Mr. G. RENNET said, the proceeding was disgrace ful to the Clergy of Westminster Abbey. lie wished to know whether the monuments could not be re moved ?—(4 laugh.)—He would not care about any expense that would put an end to the Selfish regula tions of the " money-changers." They were monstrous impositions.—Vote agreed to. Mr. HUME, on the vote respecting the Levant Com pany, complained of the Consular charges; they amount ed to as much as tile freightage of Amer ►c.u► vessels. Mr. CANNING admitted that the subject had been productive of inconveniences, and that lie would turn his attention to the subject. Remaining Resolutions agreed to. NEW CHURCHES. . The House having resolved itself into a Committee on the Church Building Acts, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, he should not, upon this occasion, have troubled the House with any remarks, but for the observations which had been made at the time he first intimated the grant for building Churches. He confessed that he was much surprised at the opposition then offered to the grant. He [certainly did not expect those who dissented from the Chuich of England to be very anxious to promote such a proposal, but neither did ha expect that Dissenters from the Church of England, not any Christians, indeed, would object to the principle of building Churches for the frequenters of the Church of England. In stating this, he assumed that he was able to shew that there was a deficiency of these Churches. He certainly should have expected from all who professed Christianity, that the proposition was prima facie good in itself, and therefore his surprise was the greater at the opposition. What, however, was his astonishment, when he heard the propo sal to build Churches denounced as blasphemous !—(!fear.) Ile knew it was difficult to assign the legal meaning to that word, nor was he now going to make that attempt; but this certainly was the first time that such a mean ing had been given to it. It might be contended that with the sum proposed to be destined to this purpose, it would be better to remit taxes, or that it was inconsis tent in him not to apply it in that way but how his proposition to give a facility to people to go to church could be condemned as bad in itself, it passed his humble comprehension to conceive. Another objection was made to the proposition, which appeared to him a singular one. It was said that it was absurd to call upon the People at large to contribute to the building of these churches, because amongst them Dissenters might be found, whom it would be unjust to tax for such an object. if this principle were carried to its test, t would result that they could have no established Church at all. They voted every year a sum of money for the education of the Catholics, which he considered to be inconsistent with any principle of the kind con tended for. No one had denied that it was material that a further sum should be advanced for this purpose. From the papers before the House it would be seen that after all that had been done, a considerable number of persons ss ere still left without the means of religious ' instruction. lie knew that there were many aged and infirm persons who could not attend divine worship, ; and Dissenters, who ought to be taken from the account, but from this Report it would be seen that there were 179 places containing a population of 3,548,000, in which there was no church accommodation for more than 500,000 persons, or about one out of seven. Many were in consequence precluded from attending divine worship according to the frame of the Church of Eng land. The cause of this want of accommodation might be ascribed to the immense increase of our population, which had outstripped all calculation, and left those parishes which had formerly sufficient room in their places of worship without the means of accommodating those who would willingly attend them. Many of the parishes thus situated were too poor to be able to build for themselves, if they were nut assisted by the public. Ile considered it would be to spew a most unworthy in difference to the interests of the Church and to those of the people if assistance were withheld. A great anxiety fur religious instruction had been manifested. The Churches which were already completed, had been crowded, to the great benefit, comfort, and consola tion of those who frequented them. To have those who were anxious for religious instruction to seek it as chance might direct them, would, in his opinion, be to neglect their d u ty a s a Christian Legislature.— It was desirable to see what had been already done, and thence judge whether there was not room to hope, that from an additional grant a corresponding benefit might be derived. Ile did not mean to say that a new grant of 500,0001. would afford all the accommodation which he could wish to see afforded. But it they could not do all that was desirable at once, it was proper that they should now accomplish as much as they could, and do more when a fit oortunity should offer. The sum of 1, pp 000,0001. whi c h had already been granted for build -1 ing Churches, had not only done all that was expected from it, but had exceeded the calculations and the hopes of the Commissioners. They had expected it to furnish • the means of building eighty-five Churches, which would , accommodate 140,000 persons. But the result was, • that nicety-five Churches had been built; or were now , building, which would offer seats for 153,000 persons. It ought to be known that the sum of two hundred thou ; sand•pounds had been subscribed in aid of the one mil lion which had been granted by Parliament, and by Ineans of the subscriptions, additional means for tfie accommodation of 19,000 persons had been provided. 'The fact which he had just stated proved that pro fessors of the Church were not so supine as they had been represented to be, and that they were not resolved to do nothing but what they were enabled to do by the extravagance, or, as some might think it, the profligacy of Parliament. He would refer to one or two particular cases, to shew the good which had been effected by the former grant. The Right Honourable Gentleman then ' proceeded to read papers ielative to the attendance at the new Churches at Blackburn, Birmingham, Notting-' hem, Portsea, Ringwood, and Trinity Chapel, in Bath. These, which were letters from Clergymen, described the attendance to be good, most of the pews which were' to be let were taken, and generally the greatest practi cal benefit was realized from the effects. of the grant.' He had troubled the House with these statements to refute the assertion, that when the Churches were erected they would not be well filled. He had shewn that the Ministers were not likely to preach to empty walls, and having already granted 1,000,0001. to erect new Churches, he thought if the present grant were re fused now, when they were much licher than before, and could spare the sum ten times better, it would be most extraordinary. lle did not believe . the House would act so niggardly and miserable a part, or that they would view this as a mere question of pounds, shillings, and pence. He knew It might be said, that as this sum would not suffice to afford all the ac commodation that was wanted why did he not ask for more ; that he took too little, or he took too much. He should not however ask for more; but he had no difficulty in saying, that if it were the pleasure of Par liament to appropriate a larger sum to this purpose, it would not be a misapplication of the public money. He, however, should move for no more than the sum which he had first mentioned, as he felt that if the hmnty of Par liament were to extend beyond reasonable bounds, those friendly to the Church would not have that inducement to exert themselves which it was desirable should con tinue to operate on them. He concluded by calling on the House to sanc.ion the grant, and thus contribute to promote an object which they must feel to be of no small importance to the country. Notwithstanding the observations which had been thrown out when the sub ject was first mentioned, he was confident that the Bill which lie desired to bring in would pass with but little opposition. He moved a Resolution to "enable his Ma jesty to give directions that Exchequer Bills to the amount of 500,0(X)1. should be issued to the Commis sioners appointed to promote the building of additional Churches and Chapels, to be by them applied accord. ing to the' regulations of Acts of Parliament passed or to be passed." Mr. HOBHOUSE admitted the question, relating as it did to the religion of the people, to be one of no small importance. He was aware of the delicate ground on which he stood, as some observations bad been thrown out relative to those who were indifferent about such matters. It a want of religious instruction were one of the immediate wants of the people, he should he disposed to vote for the proposition of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. This, however, did not appear to be the case, and if it were, he should have thought the Church, highly beneficed as it was, might have found the means of correcting the evil without coming to the public. The Right Honourable Gentleman said he had not objected to the grant for a like purpose for Scotland. But in Scotland there were no established churches highly be neficed as here, on which such charges could be thrown. Because a grant had been made in aid of the Presbyterian Church of kicothind i lt by no means followed that a vote like the present'ought to pass.' There had been no call for new Churches—not a single Petition on this subject had been received. lie however believed that the religious feelings of the country had greatly increased of late years (Hear, hear, hear). By that cheer he understood he was supposed to have advanced something which made against his own argument.— He believed religion had become more prevalent among the people of late years, but by that he did not mean since the grant of 1,000,0001. had been made to erect additional Churches, but he believed that it had been on the increase from the period of the French Revolu tion. For the forty-three applications which were said to have been made for assistance in this way, these did not at all surprise him, as whenever Parliament should make it known that a portion of the public money was to be given away he had no doubt there would be a sufficient number of persons ready to receive it. They were :old that sufficient means•were not provided for the accommodation of the people with respect to reli gious instruction. In six out of the eight parishes it was represented that one hundred and thirty-three thou sand persons were thus circumstanced. He had inquired into this. In the Pat ish of St. George, Hanover-square, there was supposed to be 33,477 deficiencies. This, by the bye, was assumed from a reference to the census of 1821, which included all persons living there,• among whom were many infants and others who could in no case attend a public place of worship. The Church of St. George, Hanover-square, was certainly thronged ; and at Saint James's the excellent man who there officiated was so attended, that to obtain a pew in that Church it was necessary to engage it seven years beforehand.— An applicant for a seat was promised to be put on the list, but more could not be looked for. But in the pa rish of . St. George there were three Chapels of Ease. The first o f these at which Ire enquired could have furnished one hundred places; the second was not full, the third was. In St. Ann's Church, it was stated that there was a deficiency of room for fourteen thousand persons. There was no Chapel of Ease in that parish, which con• tained but about twelve or fourteen hundred houses, but he found there was plenty of room in the Church. So the statement of a deficiency to the amount named was incorrect. In the next parish the deficiencies were 26,319, but then there was a Chapel of Ease, in which places were to be obtained. In St. Martin's in the Fields, the deficiencies were reported 23,752, but seats were easy to be got. In St. Margaret's parish, the deficien cies were said to be 20,889. The Church was full, but in that parish there were three Chapels of Ease, where seats might be obtained without difficulty. In the parish of St. John, room was wanted for 14,839 ad ditional persons.—That Church, however, was not at all' full, and one of the sextons had told him that when a sermon, which . was expected to bring a crowd, was preached, there had been room for more than 100 per sons. There were instances of deficiencies of room in the IDtssenters' Chapels, but this was no argument in fa.. your of assisting Dissenters to build additional places 'of worship. He did not think that ought to be done. The attendance at Church had not fallen off, and there. was scarcely a tradesman in Westminster who did not take his family to a place of worship on Sunday, and who would not be pointed at if he , wore not to d 610; Upon the whole, he was of opinion that a general wane of accommodation for the purposes of religious in struction had not been proved. It appeared that the 1,000,000/. expended in building Churches had pi ovided accommodation for 153,000 persons. It followed that the 500,0004 now to be voted would provide for about 77,000 more. The Chancellot of the Exchequer had said he would not stop here, but proceed by degrees as Parliament Might see fit. But going on at this rate, did the House consider what it would cost to provide for the 3,024,148 deficiencies which were stated to exist ? It would cost the country no less than 20,000,000/. He thought the present motion unnecessary, and that the intended grant might be saved by instituting double service, or even triple service, as was common on the Continent. He had another plan to propose, which hatl already been suggested by his Hon. Friend the Membei for Midhurst, namely, that congregations should be al lowed to .appOint their own pastor, subject to the 2p. probation of the Bishop of the diocese, who ought to posses; a Veto in such cases ; and if the privilege of choosing their Ministers were granted to them, he thought the*professors of the Church would provide places of worship for themselves. Since he had been one of the Members for Westminster, in which it was stated there were 133,000 deficiency, he thought his doors had been open to all; and though all sorts of other complaints had been brought under his notice, his constituents had never called his attention to this subject. Considering there was not that want of ac commodation for the people generally, which the Right Hon. Gentleman had supposed, he begged to move the following Resolutions: " That it appears to this Committee, that the sum of 1,000,0001. sterling has been already granted out of the public Iteveoues, a:ld that the number of individuals accommodated in the Churches ru viiikl, Or about to be provided, by means of that grant, would Lot exceed 153,886. " That it appears to this Committee that a further sum of money Is now called for by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, for the saint! purpose. " Thit it appears to this Committee, that in 179 Parishes only, more than 3,000,000 of persons are stated by the Parliamentary Ile writs, to be still unprovided with this requisite accommodation, and that, according to the rate of expense incurred by providing fur the deficiencies already caused, t) provide for those stated to raja in the 179 parishes, would cost the country nem ty twenty millions of money, besides what might, be wanted for a like purpose in other parts of the country. " That it appears to this Committee that there are several other modes of providing for any deficiencies that may exist in the accom modation provided for the religious instruction of the People, ac cording to the principles of the Established Church. " That it therefore appears to this Committee, that it is inexl,.= dient to make any further grant for the erection of new Churches." Mr.'Secretary PEEL, before he pi oceeded to notic:e any of the observations of the Honourable Member for Westminster, felt himself bound to say that nothing could be fairer than the principle upon which h:: pro posed to rest the whole of this argument: it was a fair and liberal mode of settling the question. All that the Honourable Gentleman required was, that there should Ise ample proof that the church establishment did re quire this additional expense to be laid out for the due maintenance of the national religion ; that proof being made out, the Honourable Gentleman said tharbe would be amongst the foremost to give this establish ment the aid now sought. The first argument of the Honourable Gentleman was, that there was no imme diate want of means felt, and that no call had been made on Parliament to supply means. But how was the fact ? Previous to 1817, there weie complaints forwarded to the Parliament from valions parts of the country, that the Petitioners were without sufficient means of accommodation for religious worship. Par iiament appointed a commission to inquire into the sub ject—to that commission, and not to Parliament, all subsequent complaints had been addres,sed. The Hon. Gentleman founded his argument upontthe case of the Westminster parishes; but there could be no conclusion in that argument. The Honoutable Gentleman found no . deficsency...f . seats and accommodation in the churches and chapels of those parishes. But he con fined his remarks to the accommodation required by the rich, and those who were able to pay. What was the case with respect to free admission? The object of the Parliament was to provide accommodation for the poor. The Honourable Gentleman totally Mis took the pu! port of the return on the table. It was by no means intended for a return of all places whatsoever which were without adequate means of ac commodation for religious worship; but of all such places wanting the necessary means as contained 4,000 inhabitants and above. In Westminster the Commis sioners did not find the necessity so pressing as else where. They had, therefore, spent little upon churches or chapels in that city. In St. Margaret's it was com puted that there was a deficiency with respect to a popu lation of 19,817 persons, and yet the Commissioners did not advance one farthing. They applied their means where the deficiency seemed to be great, and the urgency was greatest. They only provided for about 5,000 per sons in all the parishes of Westminster. [Mr.Hontrouse said across the House; that he had no objection to the mode of applying the moneyll. The Honourable Gen tleman had not objected to the conduct of the Commis sioners in applying the money, but he had drawn his ccn - elusions wrong. What would he say to the large ma nufacturing towns,—to Birmingham, Manchester, and Walsall? Would he say that because Westminster did not want accommodation, that these places had also sufficient means ? Would the House allow itself to lose sight of the effects which were likely to result from a want of those means in large manufacturing places?— He would calculate then, that one-fourth of the whole population were without the means of religious worship, which ought to be provided for them. Suppose a town to contain 100,000 inhabitants, it would be necessary to find accommodation for 25,000. He could satisfy the House, that with what was already done, 500,0001. would go a great way towards the completion of the whole. Manchester, for _example, contained 187,000 population. One-fourth of that number gave 46,000. At present there were accommodations for 22,468: there only remained 24,761 to be provided for. Of Birmingham, the population was about 100,000; one. fourth, 25,000; persons already accommodated, 16,000; about 10,000 to be provided for. Wouhl any man say that 10,000 persons should be left in such a town as Birmingham without the means of religious worship ? The population of Leeds, 81,000 ; the fourth about 20,000; present accommodation for 10,000; to be pro vided for 10,000. They ought to do what good they could, leaving it, like setds sown, to mature growth, and in the end there would be a plentiful harvest.— The Honourable Gentleman proposed double services. He ought to know, that in many of •these places there were already five services in a day.' He could mention a place where, besides ,the morning and evening ser vices, the r ii were 20 issarriages celebrated ; there were, lasside,s, baptisms, burials, catechising the children, and sometimes administering the 'sacrament. As to the choke cSf pastori by the people; hcdid sot thid4 it : ; one-:lei Churct filled, choice whole, Churcl pose cc mass c stated Excite( quartet for ad from should before was in The] his co and ti of his Dr. speech Indeed duct ill kis Par . popular the poi these it that, if Eitabli to riser Mr. had re that or Idcrnb the . .1.1 Tomah The II that tt about new at Cant, Churc that hi The Thu Rum cordin The Om co