Star. — London, England, 1815-04-11 00:00:00

such a sum across the table. If the House did not I,el that it was necessary to require a Committee up stairs, to enquire into the enormous expellee With which t h e war had been conducted, it Wits clear that t h e y cared nothing about the matter. A detAiled re. mart wai necessary t o enable them to know What pu r s l ' w e nt should be inflicted nu those who had thus diupiJated the public money. He did in his-con sci nce believe that the scenes of peculation that had Li k a i place were greater th an any t h at had ever hap. l ien& in the world. It was 1 IdiClllOU B to be objecting across the table to miser a bl e i tems , and finding tat& with individual officers for having g ot a f ew hu ndreds of pounds too much, whdo so many muitons were over in silence. XING thought the Committee would see nquiry ought to be made: otherwise Gen .!, :!.a.t have made up their minds to see hen ii,inds squandered away without the least ;„,, ,a what had become of them. II a Com "nee were appointed, it would be seen that a great rATt of de money had been expended in the most *Wed-system of Commissariat that had ever been ik t i pietbince the commencement of the world. No thing c std exceed its absurdity i and he tho ug h t , al ter what he should state , that it would be quit e im possme te:r'lhe motion for the Committee to be re. jecte,l. U der this general system thirty or forty mil. h,„ is th,. public money had been expended in the WAS a .subjeot that called loudly tr investigation. T he contracts for provisions were, 311Atk tlic n; low and ignorant persons in Spain, and they pA.,I them for their goods an d mu l es in bits of f yet., 4 , 1 which they could make no use, bug tie:es fawn the Deputy-Commissaries to the Coneni.saiy General at Lisbon. These drafts were passed tram one hand to another till they came to P ersona who were commissioned to buy thein up. He w,:uld bring persons before the Committee, if it should br aereed to, who would prove that they had made 5.. to 61 per cent. by this traffic. Even petsons scsidiag in London were engaged in buying up this I per. *Dos it would be seen that the muleteer got seal crly more than a goat ter of his due. Never in any pat of the would was paper at such a discount. litre a .11.1n...tiny was created, which caused a scar ci v or spec , . ; wbde, it some exertions had been made ac the beginniae, the country would have saved one e l i t J of the whole expense. This system had given r 5V to the grnssest peculation that could be imagined, a : 'mous for.uues had been made by individuals c: alto bought up - this paper, while Govern. n hat to pay for all its depreciation. Now when v.e were in danger of going into a new war, and this S y; c.n; were to be continued, the House must not be stirpr sed if the Minister gets twenty.one millions retry rim , that a quarter of that sum would be suf.. Lie:it. He hoped a Cote nittee would be appointed. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ealar , d, that if he thought a Committee tip stairs %triad completely unrav:i the business of the CUM. Ili;Sidriin, it should have his hearty support —but he C. tad 11.4 tt.iuk it would be so eff:ctual, as the Com t.ittee which was already on the spot for this very pose. The Honour able Gentleman must be atea that these would be no end to the itiqunce and dvi.ty of sending for witnesses Hum Spain and Por ei.eal. He would be glad to have any information which the Honourable G.:nth:man co uld . give on the I.l,ject. in order that the persons, if amenable to die lt,vs, might be brought to punishment. H: wished, t:, tt whatever proofs might exist of such mal.prac t;ots might be furnished to the COMMISIIOIICIS sitting a: Lisbon. Mr. BA RING replied, that the Right Hon. Gen t: : had misunderstood him. He had nothing to t!..•0 as to the peculation of any particular individual easing to Gortrautent but had only complained ni the s! stem which had been pursued under the sane -41 a Garernment ; for any Gentleman who chose tr.t , streit his nriney to Lisbon for the purpose u€ hp these b lls, and there was no law to clew. The object of a. r arli.imentary enquiry ~, nl,l to stop such an egregious waste of public .9:ivy te.r the future. While he was on this subject 1. t.:. al.l add, that he bvlicved the Right lion. Gen- Lueell not state that any. of the Spanish ae c•-;:at from the beginning of the last year had been 114;51.01 The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thiAed the lionoierab:c Gentlediarilor explaining 014 it WAS not by any connivance between the Cum u.ibs.trivs that any sum of m o ney had been lost to the puo,ic. lit: was aware of the fact that much loss 1:..d bzen sustained by the depreciation of the p ;per, and he did not wish to disguise it. The 1"Is' however, must bo paid at the value for t:1:1 were pivot, otherwise it would be a tom rt,!n)ery. R•:spectink the concluding remark ' 4 t..e ii.ai.niraLle Gentleman, he apprehended that 1i:•e 10 the oiits:aoJ►ng debts had been verified, ;:a.y tally tem:tined u• be paid. From the inter. r. pt ~n of ot:r cunt:Hes-Oat intereoerse with the Cm t!..•::,t, at the time of the Peninsular war, we had nut I: • meal' s t f pa)ito.: for w!).tt was required by the adl.isariat in tirotlty. Rut be trusted that them pn.s, e tot ow ever bin; ag i.t excluded j: foreign but that Itt the unfortunate k•L ,. of any riLw war, we should be able to exert all " t.s tam's to t' e bust pt.ss.ble advantage. commtnuetl upon the abuses ex by Mr. 13aring. He ad A led, that the fwch 1. •y price of a mule in Spain was not. more than a ..,r. lle adverted to ttie enortnot4.4 expences of I:). weir :Lit had jti•i closet!, and obierved,. that if it " the or..;ect of Minitleri to plunge us into a new '••••., toe txpense of 40 millisns a year, would be *•••'. 1 ,11 to bbia the invot belligerent appetite: he ‘t vela ills protest'against such a war; for hio' 4 pirt, wt.a4l not waste single life, or ruse • :;i•,a?►,:.t g l,n• the purpose of motoring the Bogy .— :.• .hen alluded to the great sums paid to our • it.sadois, to the Allied Sovereigns duraig the last lieginning with Lord Aberdeen, who had re. civi:J A 25,000 fin his particular services. Alluding to L. 14: sums remitted for the payment of the army in till tin, he &dated he had no doubt but that General l'irtittingliam'a corps, which had been paid by us, L i been the means of reinstating the present Usur. p:r on the Spanish throne.—(Thar, hear, kar )—Hc tcyietted the condition of the people of Spanish A !,erica, who had looked up to us for assistance. He wistad to know what had become of the £lO,OOO re hrized to Lid W. Bentinck, on account of Sicily, ✓el),,cting our conduct towards the Sovereigns of 1...11 there were known some very extraordinary against e ai h n a t e t ie he t th e son against the father, and the f f: c th lll e; If we had taken 4pOn our selves to depose Monarchs, the House ought to have the necessary information for forming their minds upon the subject. In the last.year Lord-Cathcart had received for his extraordinary set-vial; and by looking into the Civil List Accounts, it would oe seen that he had received, altogether, in that year, or to the sth January, 1815, no less than 830,''93. But in the preceding year it appeared he had served his country cheaper, as he then received only £12,401 for the last three quarters. Lord Stewart had re ceived £15,317 for a year and three quarters Alter adverting to a number of other items, the Honouta ble Gentleman alluded to a sum claimed by the Elec tor of Hesse, of £7550 Mr the loss of his baggage and camp equipage in the years 1793 and 1791 e and expressed his astonishment that such a demand was not made during the year of. peace from 180'2 to 1803. It put him in mind of the story about a will made by George I. and said to be destroyed by George 11. but was afterwards found to be deposited in the hands of the Elector, who offered trtgive it op, provided we would pay him a subsidy : he hoped there was no such und-rstanding between nur Minis ters and the Elector of Hesse, as that related by Sir Robert Walpole. He trusted, jn conclusion, that not any projects fora new war would be indulged in. Lord CAS fLEREAGH said, that as mmy of the Honourable Member's observations related to his department, he could not sit silent. It was right, as the expences of the Ambassadors were very large, that the House should know what were the grainds that rendered them necessary ; and thus would be done away the charge of extravagance against those Noblemen who had-received the money. They were under very heavy expences. With respect to the issue of money to Lurd Aberdeen, it was paid to him as Ambassador to the C ourt o f Austria, with a view to take advantage of the temper of that Potentate, at the time when Holland was about to be delivered. Three or four thousand pounds had been paid for the purposes required, and the remainder of the sum had been paid fur the Army Extraordinaries of our I Tees in the Low Countries. As to the sum received by Lord William Bentinck, a portion of it bad been ap plied to the raising of what • was called the Italian levy. Respecting the Elector of Hesie,the Honour. able Member appeared to have raised a ghost, which had very much disconcerted him. The old story he had quoted bore no relation to the transaction iu ques. tion ; for the sum demanded had been esteblished be fore the Auditor of the Army Accounts, and it was a mere transaction of office to pay it. Respecting the payment to the Duke of Wellington, the reason why the Honourable Member did not find it in the accounts before him was, that it had nothing to do with them. Hereafter it would be found in the Civil List Accounts. The essential part of the accounts to which be should. allude, was that which related to 'he expenditures of Military Officers who were En voys abroad. The Honourable Member should take into his consideration that Ow Officers had a double sum in their civil and military capacities. Out of the .sums which these public Oilkers do receive, they are taxed to the amount of one fourth, by the difference in the course ot exchange, being from '25 to pet cent. and when the armies were at a great distaiece from large towns, they were obliged to submit to a loss of 40 per cent. and therefore to represent thest! Gentlemen as receiving the full value or amount or their salaries was wrong. It would be more fair to say that they hid not one half of the amount against their respective names. Tile sums standing against them not only covered their own expences, bat the whole expences ot the missions. In L ird ekewart.'s account of £12,635, only 4'289 ought to be v.aist dered as his personal expences. He must d ciare, in justice to the Nobleman in question, that the mu )si painful part of his duty WAS to see toe servants of the country abrcad exposed -to the utmost difficulties to keep within their incomes. In tact, it was absolutel : ruinous to a man's private fortune, to be employed in a diplomatic capacity. The military 011ieers who formed the subject of the Hort:ell-Ale Gentleman's remarks, were in situations pectiii rrly expensive. They had to keep a table at heed quarters ot tire most ex pensive description. As far as he had been able to look into the accounts of Lord Stewart, he had no occasion to complain of the result of tail accounts, for he had reason to know the great expense he was put to for horses and other incidents. As to Lord Cade cart's accounts, he had nut been in possession of them long enough to investigate them ; but they had not the same causes to regal to them, as operated upon the others. On the whole, he must declare, that it this country had not instiuments enough abroad to understand what was going on, her interests must vitebly suffer. He could speak a little to the ex pences necessarily incurred by the Ambassadors Iron, his riven experience at Vienna. In that capital, from so many Soveteig :5 and their Courts ming assenteled, a complete revolution had taken place in the prices of things, and the expense of living was in consequence inconceivably great. He mntioned this net from a wish to prevent the items in question from being enquired into, but to prove that it was a delusion to suppose the sums which appeared in the estimates against the names of the persons so emiloyed in the set vice of the country, were really received by them for their own emolu ment. A Plenipotentiary or Ambassador at a loreign Court, nominally receiving a salary of 45200 per an num, reduced by taxation ss. in the pound, and further diminished by the loss on the exchange, fre quently found his income brought down to a sum on which (where they were) a Gentleman could hardly live in the most complete obscurity. Lord PROBY complained of the abuses in the Commissariat department. During the late war in the Peninsula, the country had regularly paid one dollar per mule for a day. The current price in the country had been half a dollar per day, and the tra veller did not maintain the muleteer or the mule, while Government, payiog double the ordinary price, had both to provide tor in the Commissariat. The whole system of the Commissariat was most abomi nable. No man could have an idea et the profusion with which the public money was lavished in that department, who had not served in the armies to witness it; yet he had heard it publicly asserted by .one person connected with it, that economy was the ruin of the public service in the Cointnissariat. • Mr. GORDON criticised various items in the estimates r he noticed the sem of 82000 paid to Rear-Admiral Freemantle, for conveying and enter. thin . stirbral persons 0 1 chlidnetion on board the Milford, during the command in the Adriatic ; and that of 4600 far conveying Marshal Blucher and many other foreigners of great distinction from Dover to Calais, and compared them with the retintneration offered to Captain Usher, for conveying Bonaparte to Elba, which was so small that he-had not thought' proper to accept of it t the sum paid for the value of slaves taken and conveyed to one of the British Colonies, for the service of the British Government. On this subject he wishes( for an answer, not on ac count of the sum paid, but on account of the manner in which the item was worded. He desired to know why the sum of £lOO to Mr. l3urgman, for fees paid on his receiving the honour of Knighthood, had not been paid by that Gentleman, who he understood had been employed in the Commissariat; supposed him to have made large sums, and concluded him to be able to pay all the expenses attendant on the ho nour he had received. He did not wish to say any thing against the expenses incurred at Vienna, but he could see no reason for objecting to the items being submitted to a Committee. He wished to know why it was thought necessary to have so many Ambassa. dors at Vie:rna Four Bt itish Ambassadors had signed the declaration recently pest forth. He had supposed they were there in consequence of their re spective Courts being there assembled, but from their having signed that paper it should seem they were all Ambassadors to the Congress. Lord CASTLEREAGH said, the Ambassadors being assembled at Vienna, the country had a claim to any services they could perform. Lord Cathc art was the Ambassador to Russia, Lord Aberdeen to Austria, Lord Wellington to the Congress, and Lord Clancarty (having performed the high mission cia which he was sent out with great honour to himself and advantage to the public service) was the only Ambassador who was not there in the regular dis charge of his duty. He could assure the Hon. Gen tleman, that there had not been one too many there, while he (Lord Castlereagh) was at Vienna. Their presence had afforded him much assistance while the negociations of the Congress were going on, and had been found of much importance in the diccussion, which had taken place on the numerous topics which were there to be taken into consideration. Mi . .CROKE R. in answer to the questions respect ing the sums paid to naval officers in the instances which had been referred to, said these matters *ere ..egulated by a scale which it had been thought wise I to adopt in 1812, which had been iirinted, and which was in the hands of every naval offic-r. In this scale, in one column, the regulations were set forth, strew ing the remuneration to be made_ to the Officer ac cording to the length of the voyage s and in the other the sum to be paid on account of the rank of the party to be conveyed. This scale, if any thing, he was inclined to think was fixed at too low a rate, but it was understood the officers were to have no profit ; all that was to be secured to them was, that they should not be ruined. From looking at this, every Commander so employed could tell as well what he was to receive, A the Board of Admiralty could, by whom it was to be paid. Tue sum paid to Rear- Admiral freemantle had not been paid till after the minutest investigation. The £2o(e) he had received was less than he ought to have been paid, and had he not had that sum advanced to him, he would have Inst by the service 2 or £.3040 of his own private prop_rzy. In the case of Captain Usher, who, for conveying Bonaparte to Elba, was said to have been offered so small a sum that he had not thought pro. per to accept of it, the proceedings of the Admiralty !tad been regulated by the scale of which he had 4.oken. That scale did not provide for a case like that wiiich had occurred (he did not expect for this it would he censured for improvidence), but by that it was settled that for the conVeyance of a Crowned Head, where the voyage was performed within a meek, seloo should be paid to the Captain. The title of Banaparte having been recognised in the l'reaty of Fontainbleer, Captain Usher had been directed to receive him as a crowned head. He (Captain Usher) had, %hen he came home, been di ected to make what charge he thought proper, but had declined making any, and under such circum stances the Admiralty could do no more than give directions for him to be remunerated according to the scale of regulations which had been adopted.— With respect to a charge which had been preferred against the Admiralty for not suffering sailors who had returned from a long voyage to have sufficient time on shore to spend their money, he admitted, that in some instances this might have occurred, but the established rule was, when a ship returned froin three years' service, to pay the men a third of the money due to them, and allow them from a fortnight to a month's leave of absence to see their friends.— This practice, which it was feared would promote desertion, he was happy to say, had produced a con trary effect. It had greatly tended to prevent that onot mous desertion which was formerly common.— The men almost always returned whea their leave of absence expired, to claim the remainder of their m 0..! ney, and after they c true hack, they were generally ailnwed some days to be on shore hefore the : sailed again. Mr. WHITBREAD considered the case of Cap tain Usher to . be one of great hardship. Cruizing in the Mediterranean, he was called upon to take a crowned head on board. He was obliged to keep seven tables on board, to give up the ward room, and to expose both himself and his officers to many incon veaiences for six or seven days. On arriving at Elba, Bonaparte sent an officer to Captain Usher, to pay the whole of the expences of the passage. Captain Usher thought his. Government did not stand. in need of this, and as he (Mr.Whitbread) thought be ought to have done, civilly - declined the proffered remuner ation. It was proper to state that when Napoleon landed in Elba he was destitute of mines and stores ; Captain Usher supplied him with what he had on band his ship, and when he returned and applied to the Admiralty for the expences, he received for an swer that it was supposed that Napoleon had pod fir himself and his whole suite. Indignant at this, as it seemed to accuse him of endeavouring to obtain mf)ney on false pretences, Captain Usher enquire3 whence this information was obtained, which was finally traced to a memorandum written by the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mc. Croker), and proved to be al mere supposition of his founded on some h arsay or newspaper report. The Captain was then teld to make ,out an account of his expenses. replied he could Jot, sad kit the can to the consKteratiou of the Ad- init-eltY, who iiad directed xlOO to 6e pild The expense of carryins Bonaparte to Elba was thus left to tall on Captain Usher, a man in Knolerate cir.. cemstilaces, with a fathily, who had Leen engaged it 135 actions, and who was called on unexpectedly to perforin a very extraordinary and delicatt service, and had performed it to the satisfaction of all parties..--;. This he contended was a case of great hardship, and o be trusted it would be taken into consideration ' end that Captain Usher would be comp l ete l y indemn ified. Mr. CROKER deni 'd that there was any thing distespectfblto Captain Usher, in the supposition that Bonaparte had kept his own table oh the voyage.— This was commonly done, and it was natural to sup pose that it would have been done by Bonaparte for his own accommodation. Captain Usher had never been asked to make out his account item by item, merely to state the expense incurred, 1, 2, or sc(x). When he declined to do this, the Admiralty could do no more than direct the payment of the sum per. mined to be paid in the case of a crowned held being conveyed from one place to another, by the Order .n Council of 1812. Mr. WHITBREAD said the Right Honottrah!e Gentleman seemed to think Captain Usher .vOO4 have been right to suffer Bonaparte to pay for his passage. (Mr. Croker said " No.") He put it to the Right Honourable Gentleman it any Officer, or Gentleman, could have acted better than Captain Usher had done. When it was temembered that no man had fought more bravely, or bled more freely for his country, he trusted some way of remunerating his services would be found without wounding his feelings. Mr. CROKER wished, though he had already denied that he wished Bonapat , e had been allow.d to pay for his passage, more torus illy to state sueit had not been his wish. That could not be permitted. No offence to Captain Usher was meant, in supposing that, for his own convenience, Bonaparte might hate kept his own table. He W4S anxious to state this, lest improper motives should bc imputed to Captains who permitted that to be done, which it had been supposed it might be Bonapatte's pleasure to do.— The course taken with respect to Captain Usher was the same wilt that pursueds under similar circum stances, with Sir R. Cudrington, Admiral Free mantle, and tither Officers, without the smallest slight being intended or supposed. Mr. BARHAM said Captain Usher had been more hurt by the manner, than by the matter of the refusal. Sir H. MONTGOMERY was understood to say, that if the same course htd been taken with Captain Usher as with the other Officers who had been named, he had not the cause for complaint supposed. Mr. CROKER, as it had been said the offend consisted more in the manner than in the matter of the refusal, stated the whole business to be comprised in two letters to the Admiralty, and their answers. Mr. BARHAM repeated, the manner, and not the matter of the refusal, had most affected Capt. Usher. Lord CASTLEREAGH said, if the mode of communicating the decision of the Admiralty ap peared ungracious, it had not been meant to b, sucf.. Had Captain Usher given in an account, it would have been some guide for the judgment of the Lords of the Admiralty. Without this they •:otild not act s 49 it was not understood a reward w a s d es i r ed. _ _ Mr. WHITBREAD had no dcubt things would be put in a train to remunerate Captain Usher without wounding his feelings. Mr. W. SMITH conceived that Captain Usher had thought his word doubted, and therefore refused to comply with what to him (Mr. W. Smith) was a very reasonable request. He wished to know why the Captain whe conveyed Marshal Blucher from Calais to Dover, had been paid sCGOO ? It was said the Captain was not to profit by his guests, but here he thou ght £5OO must have been paid above the ex pense incurred. In these things he thought there might be a great deal of favouritism, as in the large sums paid to Captains of ships carrying out specie. Mr. CROKER conceived a reference to the stat'e he had mentioned would answer the first question.— The sums paid to Captains: carrying out specie, w: re in consideration of their being answerable for the money entrusted to them, for which they were oblig ed to give bonds. . Mr. W. SMITH did not consider the answer satisfactory. Mr. BARING wished to know the cause of the increasing expence of our colonies. He gave the es timates EOr three years to :hew the increase of expen diture which had taken place in Siert-% Leone, the Cape of Good Hope, Ceylon, the Leeward Islands, and Jamaica. In Sierra Leone the charge since last year was increased from £12,400,000 to £16,600,000. The sums drawn by Mr. R.. Hill, the Deputy Com missary of the Cape of Gond Hope, amounted this year to £173,000, last year the charge was but £6 7 ,000, the year before £43,000; —tor- the Lee ward islands, the charge was this year £507,000, last year it was £300,000 ;—for Jamaica, Mr. Baker, the Commissariat, drew this year for £426,000, last year the charge was £160,000, the year before £58,000. If these settlements continued thus to in crease our expences, it was impossible we could keep them long, Mr. LUST INGTON and Mr COULDBURN shortly answered the last speaker. They stated that the in creased charge arose from cancelling Government de bentures, and discharging the debts of termer years. Mr. I3ENET f wished for wine information re specting the £1,900,000 to Sir James Duff, for remit. Lances to Sir R. H. Kennedy, and advances to the Spanish Government. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER shortly explained the circumstarces under which the sums were advanced, and the cause of their appearing in the present estimates. Questions were asked respecting the conveyance of Madame Tatisoboff and suite from Gottenhu,gh to the Nore as also respecting that of the Archduke Francis of Austria, his wife the Princess of S.,rdinia, &e. - trom Cagliari to the island nt Zante, and satthc. curtly answ red by Mr. Gould urn. Lord PRO BY enquired if, in the Commissariat, the Commissary was not, in some instances, the con traCt.i. ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, it the Commissary acted such a rat,, ice v.r.sa guilty of a breach of duty. Mr. BANK ES urged the :lecessity of enquiring into the state and conduct DI that IM).t imputant de. partment, the Commissariat. He huprd that his Right Hut. Frisad (the Cbaocellos of use 1.14,4.