Star. — London, England, 1801-06-16 00:00:00

ling it in the Bill's being Noble and Learned Friend mull be aware that precifely the fame language was to be met with in various Ails of Parliament. While beheld the office of Attor ney and Solicitor General, it had frequently fallen to his lot to draw feveral ACts of Parliament, and though upon feveral occafions he fhould have liked to have ekprelred the Claufes in words of his own, be had always thought it belt to copy the old phntfes of former Afts, becaufe they clearly con tained the language of the Legiflature—language to which Parliament was aceuftomed. He referred to the cafe of Mr. Rufhworth, in 1785, and laid, lie knew the ground on which the Committee went, and the cafe they had in their view, in forming their decifion, but he had no doubt in his own mind,that the olccifion was errtintous. Indeed, be bad him fell often lamented that the Hoofs of Commons had ever delegated their funiftions in refpea to the trial of Elation Petitions, even though to a Com mittee of their own Members. He was aware that feveral of the former deci fions of the Houfe had been thought wrong, and had been complained of, although the Committee appointed afterwards to bold all eleflion cafes ez clutively under their own jurifdiClion, had fince decided feveral cafes on the very fame rounds and principles. With regard to the ineligibility of Priells, or Perfons in Orders, to fit in Parliament, it was held in the language of the keelefiaftical Canons to be eraftly like marriage, which (though not a facrationt, any more than being in Orders was a feertunent,) was fonsething more than a mere civil contra& ; it had a religious nature in it, and was an inflitution of Goo hunfelf. The in eligibility of a perfon in Orders to fit ill Parlia went, and the indifolubility of marriage, flood precifely en the fame eternal footiogg, notwithftand. mg the liberality of that Houfe rePeding Divor ces. That it was generally fo held by lawyers and all ranks of able men, was clearly afcertained by an anecdote which took place on the Middlefex eleetion about thirty years ago, but the relation of which would better perhaps, his Lordfhip Paid, Came from any other mouth than his. The anec dote was this : Mr. Blackftone (afterwards Mr. Juftice Blackftone) (peaking of the ineligibility of Mr. Wilkes, in a pamphlet written by him upon the fubjelt, to prove that Col. Luttrell was duly cheer', even though he had the fewelt numbers upon the poll : fuppofe that another Dr. Sache verell were to have been the opponent of Mr. Lut trell as a Candidate for Middlefer, and the Dr. Sacheverell had the moll votes, !till Mr. Luttrell would have been (rated, the Dr. Sacheverell being ineligible, becaufe known to he in Orders. In anfwer to this, juniur, a celebrated political writer, though not a lawyer, (for politicians did not like to be confidered as lawyers,) raid there was no comparifon in the cafe, becaufe Dr. Sacheverell was in Orders, and it was known that, according to the Common Law and all Parliamentary Ufage, perfons in Orders were ineligible to Seats in Par liament. His Lordfhip purfued the fubjeit with great ability much further, and, after a great dif play of profound learning, concluded with declar ing emphatically that he flsould vote for the Bill, becaufe he was convinced it was not a Bill of Jul. franchifement, and that perfons in Orders were, according to the Common Law, ineligible to a Seat in the Houk of Commons. The Earl of Motaa, after complimenting the Noble and Learned Lord for his elaborate fpeech, kid, that in his mind, a mere doubt being enter tained as to the erifling law of dle land, on this fubjed, was no fuflicient reafon for a legiflative enalment which would go to deprive 'a large and refpeEtable body in the community of their rights. If doubts were fufficient in fuch a cafe, he would I only fay it was a good thing if no one raifeddoubts refpeding the rights which their Lordfhips held to their elates. The Clergy had their rights, and tbefe could only be impeached by a diftinft Sta. ttite. Admitting the indelibility of the Clerical charaPer, (till the Noble and Learned Lord ought to have made good his argument, by provingfrom this the . incapacity of Clergymen to ezercife the fundlitinb of Members of the Houk of Commons. The fame argumept would hold equally , good gainft the rights of the Bifhops to feats in that Flotife. Be could eafily account for the reafons Which operated in the breath of fome Sovereigns, when they re cited the Petitions of the Clergy to the right of fitting in the Houle of Commons, nor was he at any lots to find out the inducement with the Clergy, who were defirous to get into the Houfe the former exerting his authority and influence aver them in the way of taxation, and the. Clergy wilhing to mix with the Commons, in order to avoid the revere exaCtions of the Sovereign upon them as a diens& body. His Lordfhip declared, that he was confcientioney attached to the Church Itablifhed, and that he ecesfidered it to be one of rte firmell props of the Coniftution ; on this ground lie was led to oppok this bill, as tending to weaken taus prop. On what ground did their Lordfhips —in, to fee Bifhops in their Houk, that did not COL to a certain degree, in &your of the Clergy's lb •ing eligible to fit in the Houk of Commons? ' :ir Lordthips defirous of availing them. id reaping the benefit refulting from ;, the learning, and the influence of .rend Prelate , ? But if the reafon, as af. Aft rf 1641, was fufficient for exclu ,ogy from the Comments, viz. that it her they lhould have any interference in hitters, the fame reafon held equally :chiding Difhops from the Houle of in this cafe, there, he would afk, fecurity for the Church of the Efiah- The aft, if adupted, ought, in his be taken up merely prorpeetively; and .very good purpcfe would be anfwered, bvided, that no perfim hol.e.ing a terse. 'be admitted to a feat in else Houfe of and alto, that no Clerum . en returned tfe Ilsculd be capable ol ac tilting any t Its the all was now broug la forward, :d it as a dibfranchihrnent c tf the worn i nr pol fait. deprivin r a refpec of Tome of their deareft I PI v il e -- and Learned Lord had akeL w hether any ;silence could be produced of a clergyman; dreffed in his gown and tairoc, claiming his feat? But, allowing that there was no fuch innce, no thing more could be inferred, than that the Clergy.. had, erroneoufly perhaps, conceived themfelves ineligible : but fuch rniits.ke ought by no means to be made a handle for difannulling their privileges. The Learned Lord had referred to a Pamphlet of Judge Blackftone, but he could only fay, that he gave a different expofition in his Commentaries. Upon the whole, viewing the Bill as retrofpeetive, his Lordfhip Paid, it appeared to him to be molt oppreffive and unjuit. The Bifhop of Root r STIR declared that he en tertained no doubt concerning the Indelibility of the Clerical Charlder, but he had fome rerpeeting their ineligibility to fit in the Houfe of Commons, as well as to the expediency of Rirring a queltion of this nature at the prefent time. From the view he had been led to take of the fabled, the Reve rend Prelate avowed his convidion, that it would by no means be expedient to admit the Clergy to fit ,in the other Houfe. lie declared that it was with no leis furprize than forrow, that he had heard what hkd fallen that night from a Noble and Learned lord (Thurlow),and that he had ground ed his argument upon the idea of the delibility of the Clerical atarafter. The Learned Prelate oblerved, that it had become cuflomary to raife objeaions to certain principles by chail i sn them' with king of ropifla origin; but fuch one djd not diffinguith thofe, fr om what exi ed in the Chriaian Church ere Popery began. The Protef tant Church did not alien that Ordination was a Sacrament : but it was Sufficient for him to fay, that Holy Orders were of Divine Inilitution, and that on this account the Clerical Charader was in delible. But he would not argue this point theo logically; it was fufficient for him to fay, that the law of the land confidered the Clerical Charader to be indelible; and even although a Clergyman ' might have negleded the duties of his profeffion for thirty years, and have afterwards committed certain crimes, he would be no lefs amenable to the Ecclefiaftical Courts, and liable to be punifhed as a perfon in Holy Orders.—The Learned Pre late then quoted and explained the meaning of the Canon which prohibits Clergymen from volunta rily relinquifhing their Calling, and employing themfelves as Laymen. His Lordfhip acknow ledged that neither of thefe would neceffarily fol low, if they were to have Seats in the Houfe of Commons. He declared he could by no means fubfaibe to that defpicable puritanical maxim, that a Clergyman ought never to ezercife himfelf in any thing but in the immediate duties of his cal ling. Moil of our eminent Divines had conneded other branches of Science with Theology, and had fignalized their names as Chronolosifts, Mathe maticians, Geometricians, Hiflonans, Philofo phers, &c. Such his Lordfhip laid, were Utter, Pearfo'n, n Barrow, Wallis, &c. thefe great Divines were well acquainted with the pradical bufinefs of 1 the world; nor did he think that the bufinefs of the Houfe of Commons was totally unconneded with the Rudy of Divinity, for it was intermixed with the great principles of Political Jullice and Mora lity, and the Laws of Nature and Nations. But, although he did not think that Seats in the Houfe of Commons were foreign to, or incompatible with the character of Clergymen, any more than the office of Jultice of the Peace, flill he felt ftrong objedions to their entertaining fuch views, and that chiefly arifing from the means by which they would be obliged to leek admittanceinto the Lower Houfe, fuch as opening houfes of entertainment, difplaying flags, and truckling to every fedatian voter. Nor was he lefs favourable to the Noble Earl's fuggeftion of confining the ineligibility to fuch Clergymen as held benefices; he Saw no equi ty in fuch a diftinaion, whilli, to the unbeneficed, it would hold out objets of ambition, &c. For the reafons he had Rated:his Lordfhip declared he would vote for the Bill. The Earl of WisTmokLANDitated his view of the fubje&, that the Clergy and Laity were two diftind bodies ; and as Such they had been confi dered in the early periods of our hiftory ; for, when the former fat in Parliament, it was exprefs ly and folely as the reprefentatives of the Clergy. His Lorellhip then proceeded to confider the rub jed on the grounds of immemorial ufage, of inex pediency, and of the effetts it would tend to pro duce on the minds of the Clergy themfelves, as well as in the Houfe of Commons, by increafing the influence of the Crown; and from thefe dif ` tine topics, on which his Lordfhip expatiated at fome length, be exprelred his approbation of the prefent Bill. Lord HOLLAND Paid, the Noble and Reverend Prelate who had jolt fat down had fo ably fupport ted the Bill, that he Should not feel it neceffary to take p much of the time of the Houle upon the f ' . Thole Noble Lords who, like himfelf, op ed the Bill, had to thank the Reverend Prelate :eg for every thing but the vote be Should give. The way to Parliament was the only objection which the Noble Prelate had to the meifure, yet there were inftances of Reverend Prelates themfelves en tertaining at eleftions, and influencing thole over whom they had a power to vote ; which he con fidered as blameable, at leak as a Clergyman can vaffing for votes for himfelf. If the prefent mea lure was brought forward by his Majefty's Mini -tiers to preferve the purity of Parliament (which he was by r.o means ready to admit) he thought 1 they were very careful indeed of the liberties of the people. If this was really their intention, he thought the amendment fuggefted by his oble Friend (the Earl df Moira) mull remove all un eafinefs upon that fubjed. The Clergy, he raid, obtained a right to vote in confequence of their be ing deprived of the privilege of taxing themfelves, and he had no hefitation in laying, that when this right of taxing themfelves was taken from them, they had a right to feat; in the Houfe of Commons. If it was dangerous to fuffer Clergymen to fit in the Houk of Commons, the fame danger was to be apprehended in that Houk, where the Spiritual Peers, and Clergymen who were Temporal Peers, had feats. Clergymen had filled the bighett offices in the State. Even the feat of the Noble Lord upon the Woolfick, had been filled by Clergrisen; and what mifchicf, he would anc, had refalt..d (nun it ? It was evident, that the Crown alone was tá have the advantage of the abilities of Clergymen— fince they may be employed by the Crown in almoft any Illape the people only were to be deprived of their talents ? Suppofe, he laid, a man of abilities, who had been ordained, and afterwards found he was unable to pulls himfelf forward in the Church, from want of intereft or anT other caufe; and that any defcription of eleftors in the county thinking that it would have been of advantage to them to avail themfelves of his abilities, he thought it very hard that thofe eleiftors fhould be deprived of the Cervices of that perfon, becaufe forty years before a Bilhop had put his hand upon his head and ordain ed him. He thought the prefent meafute *mid not have been brought forward, but for the ap pearance of a perfon in the Houle of Commons whole political opinions were well known not to accord with thofe of his Majefty's Minifters. The Bilhop of ROCHESTER rofe to explain. He Paid he knew but of one inftance of a Bilhop inter fering in elections, and that was the cafe of the Bilhop of St. David's. The Noble Prelate did, in a private letter to fome perfons, recommend a candi date ; but he did fo becaufe he well knew the opi nions of that candidate, againft whom he ufed his influence, were inimical to the eftablifhed Church of the country ; and he Paid, if he had been in the Lune fituation he fhonld not have hefitated to have purfued the fame line of conduft. Lord HOLLAN , the Noble Prelate might confider himfelf j oin loch conduit, but it was not very conftitational. The Earl of Rosswris took a very learned and extenfive view of the Church Eilablithment of the country, from which he drew his conclufion, that the Clergy were ineligible to feats in the Houle of Commons. He went over nearly the fame ground as the Lord Chancellor, whofe opinions he corro borated ; and concluded by declaring his appro bation of the Bill. • The Earl olC;Lust faid, as there did not ap pear to him any preffing neceffity for the meafure, he hoped that fome time would be allowed their Lordfhips to underftand the queftion, in order that they might be able to give a confcientious vote. For his part, he had heard fo many learned expla nations upon the fubjea, that he was abfolutely puzzled ; infomuch that if the queftion were that night put to the vote cf the Houfe, he, for one, (hould not vote at all. Lord Gexertly (poke againft the Bill, Lord Caavrom declared himfelf convinced, from the arguments he had that night heard, of the ex pediency of the meafure. He fhould, therefore, vote for it. Lord CARLISLE explained. Lord HOBART faid he felt himfelf called upon, in confequence of one obfervation which fell from a Noble Lord (Holland), to trefpafs for a very (port time upon their Lordfhips. That Noble Lord had laid the bufinefs was taken up by his Majefty% Minifters, becaufe a perfon was fent into the other Houfe, whore opinions were inimical to thofe of his Majefty's Minifters. This be denied; but he would fay, that that perfon, coming into the Houfe I of Commons, made it the indifpethble duty of his Majefty's Minifters to decide the queftion one way or the other. About other men there might be a doubt of their being in Holy Orders ; but of the Hon. Gentleman to whom he alluded there was not the fmalleft. Every man in the country knew that Hon. Gentleman to be a Clergyman. He be • lieved the Noble Lord, and every perfon who read the Bill, would do his Majefty's Minifters the juf tice to fay, they had taken every pains to avoid any perfonal infult to that Hon. Gentleman. The queftion was then put, and carried without a divifion. The Bill was read a fecond time and committed, and the report ordered to be received to-morrow.—Adjourned at half part ten o'clock. and give it the force of law by reeordi Statute Book. With regard to the both declaratory and ena.fting..his • Ni;ere net diet ..'. Fives of, and • the morality, fr,e Reveres' fi;neti in the ding . the Cie; .t•x. trnpropel temporal mat good for cxc Lords ; but i would be the Lihment ? tilinion, to bs - thought es if was ell" • fice &mold 1, Commons ; a to that Houti bcnefit•et but conftdcred Vfnd. by an t body a The Noble as HOUSE OF COMMONS. A Mefage from the Lords, Rated their Lordthips affent to the Iriih Expiring Laws Bill, the kithllery Bill, the ille cf Man Trade 8111. the Buffos, Danifb, and Swedith Ships Bill, and • :he Greenock Harbour Bill, with feveral private Bills. Mr. Joan PALM/11 took the oaths and his feat for the city of Bath. _ _ _ On the motion of the CSANC LLLLL at the Examtuaa, it was ordered thy: there &add be laid before the Houfe an Ac count of the Quantity of Oil and Fith exported from the illand of Newfoundland during the three years ending the sth of Ja. unary ry93, acid the three years ending the sth of January itiot, and of the number of men and eels employed in that Finlay during the fame periods. Mr. BIIIIOIIt reported from the Committee on the New foundland and Labeadore Fahery. The Refolutions were read and agreed to, and a Bill accordingly ordered. Mr. VANSITIAIT brought up a Bill to regulate the Recife, which was read a &ft and ordered to be read a fecond time to morrow. Wel:route went through a Committee on tha frith Copy right Bill, and the report ordered to be received to-morrow. A Chore was introduced. extending the Bill to exilting Pro dudlons. _ _ 711eI;i1h Stamp Duty Bill was read a third time, and pared. The Annual Bill for doe Rodadtka of the National Debt was read a fceond time, and eanunkted far to-morrow. The Houle went through a Committee on the Land Tax Re- Bill, and the Report was ordered to be received on IV a l tl erday. Mr. VANIITTAILT 1110,0:1, that the Statute of the pftfent reign on the lubjedt of Statue Marble, Re. be read; which being done, he moved, that the Hook will this day Maw KM into a Committee to confider of the laid A&—Ordermi. The Infolvent Debtors' Bill was read a feeand time, and or daed to be committed to a Committee of the whole Houk to morrow, on the motion of Mr. Nay sotto. The Bill for better fettling of Difputes between Makers and Workmen, was ordered to be reads third time this day. On reading the Order of the Day for further proceeding on the Irills Duty Exemption Hill, Sir josh P took notice of another meafure which he (aid was eonnedted with this, and objected to it, for be kid it would operate as a Bounty on Emigration ' which he laid was now the greatelt evil Ireland Sacred. He laid, that DO las a lots than Four Millions annually were (attained by Ireland by Emigration. He mitered at confiderubk length into other ob *Rion, to that nudism, and took this opportunity of Cayinr, he thought that bo time of Peace it would be politic to prevent Emigration even from this Country. He applauded the libe nay of the prefcnt BSI, and withed the fame principle would be adopted. Mr. AIBIOT did not wino to take notice of that part of the Hats. Baronet's Speech, which, although always reliseastak, re lated to a fubjea not now before the Houk, he therefore coo tented khaki' . with moving, a That the Hassle do agree to the Repast" The amendments were accordingly read ands/road to, and the Bill ordered to be ingrofftd. DISTILLIIIIIIS. Mr. S. Ttroanvon prefrnted a Petition from the Englilh Diaillers, which was read by the Clerk. It prayed the Houfe that a fnitable countervailing Duty Mould he laid on Spirirs imported from Ire land, as, in conlypicacc of the drawback of the Sugar Dnti being allowed to the hi the Petitioners were under a diradvir it was contrary to the purpofe and Union to tolerate, , iclis the motion far to lie on the Tahlai Sir .1. PARMILL rofe, and commei nature of the Petition, which, he ft fecond attempt made, in, - the couife of Seffion, to undermine the letter of tin affecting a folicitude to maintain its fuhjeEt of Countervailing Duties was Rood to be already fettled, unlefs in Excite Duties in England. Why thet Petitioners apply for a change ? Tin they complained of exifted before the t the objeft of giving to Ireland that pref . ( one of the principal conditions of t which was offered to reconcile that cot Union. If it was to interpreted then, forward now to do away that bargain?— to the liberality and wifdom of Govern hoped they would lay the Petition and ." of Union before the Crown Lawyers, how far they were compatible, previot trocludion to the Houfe of any meaft on thi Petition. He adiiled the H. confent to any proceeding which migl loofen that connexion between the two which, though he lid originally mould now endeavour, by every.poffibl4 ftrengthen and cement. It certainly - juft that after the contraft had been agreed to between the Parliaments.of Ireland,. One of the parties lhould • n9l to interpret that contra& in its own i particularly againft the fpirit of the ftitution, according to which thofe who Laws had not the right of defining Or applying them. The Cuescittoe of the-Excasttoita Paid; the Hon. Baronet wined the Petition to be referred to the Crown Lawyers, and yet be thought pro. per to bring the difcuffion of its merits before the Houle. The Hon. Baronet could not be more unwilling thanite was to put the fpirit of the Uni on in oppofition to its imperative letter, tror More anxious to haie that letter treated with the roof fcrupulous attention. He thought the moa eligi ble way in this cafe would be, to refer the Petition to the confideration of a Committee. As to the affertion that Ireland enjoyed the advantage of the Sugar drawback before the Union, it could have little force, when it was recollefted that the AEt granting that drawback only paired the very day on which the Union was enaCied. The Milt rm.. tiller had obvioufiy an advantage over the Dißiller of England, by which the latter materially fuffered in his own market, and ix certainly was not con trary to the Articles of the Union to relieve them. In proof of this opinibn, the Chancellor of the Ex chequer read extraCts front the Articles of the Union, and concluded by Rating, that the - objeft of the Petitioners was, to be on an.equal fobting with the hi& Di:tillers, by either laying on a Countervailing Duty in England, or taking off the Sugar Drawback in Ireland. It was a cafe. he thought, particularly entitled to confederation.) Sir J. PAR/Isla. did not think the Irifh Duties ought* to be changed in order to correct ao error in the original arrangement of the coinatervailiqg duties in England. - The CHANCIILLOR of the Bios/kola Paid, at the Aft would expire on the ift of July, it could have nothing to do with the permanent, arrange• ment alluded to by the Hon. Baronet. Sir J. Peewit:. was Rill Rronger of opinion that merely to remedy a temporary evil, as the grie vance complained of would terminate on the tft of July, the Houle ought not to tamper with the Articles of the Union. He was happy the Milla r don from fugar was foon to end, as in his judg. ment, no fpint was fo pernicious as that manufac tured from Sugar. Mr. Timmer wilted that the jultice of every, petitioner's application to that Houfe mould be fairly confidered, without any reference to the country where the petitioner refided. The peti tioners in this intimate complained of an extreme hardfhip, but he fuggefted, that in order to pre vent any jealoufy on the fubjed of the Union, it would be better to relieve the petitioners from the national purfe. The CHeacsttoa of the ,iClll9,,,pita approved of that idea. Mr. G. Pon sow ay contended that any advitn tage which Ireland enioyed, preiious to the Uaiont and which that Union did not resuove, Ireland had a right to retain • and the Houk could not infint tO any aa in oppo lltion to that right s without a careet violation of the Articles of the Union. Mr. Tmoairrom raid, he lhould wave his intern• tion for the prefent, of founding any p ropofition on this petition, but merely moved, that a fhculd be laid on the table. The CHAISCILLOR of the Excitsckpait (aid, that if the Hon. Gentleman thould decline to btino .for ward any propation for the relief of the Pomon a% it was his intention, in the conrfe of thx . pre. fent Seffion to fubmit to the Hoife the propriety of indemni fying them at the expence of the country. Mr. VANSITTAST (poke in favour of the 'teti• tionen. Mr. Tauten Paid, as the difkillation frp . n Wiz would recommence on the lit of Ju s ly , i i i t iri tTrept . material now to meddle with the Mr. STEWART dated, that the • “vik„ had now no demand for their fpihti, s o, conte:. quence of the quantity and cheapnefs'of4f. kilt • fpirits in the country, and that much Mite oi.tike fame kind was expeded. This he hew to itrifes feom the caufe affigned by the petitione4 wborc • complaint alluded to the tpiriis at inefent kaktiand. • The petition was ordered to lie on.tha table. ways Lau steams. The Houle having refolved itfelf into a Com mittee of Ways and Means, and an order having been made to refer to the Committee an aicount. ot the difpofition of laft year's grants, an accoudf or the monies remaining in the Exchequer, and the accounts prefented that day to the .Houfe, The CMANCILLOR of the Excmagysa role CO Rate the amount of the various Cervices required for the enfuing year,and the manner in which-they were to be provided (Qr. The whole arliQUllt of tho gel 4ce .T Irsidi Mak Oern of 4 tr. et* rill Difiillerc the Se] ic choose which e frve d fptrit of the Union G n- the ?ethical lie rat thc ented on the rune (aid, wa s t h e p rod u of the . prefen t 2 505 °C he Union, b y The 1 filled Ipirit. Th e s fully under.the r n cafe of n ew The Iferric en lhould the. he drawhae;• went e Union, an d timac 'efel'CllCC, x,,, of the i the bar ga i n The ountry to th e from n, why com e t he d ?--He hulled Confi ernment, and who d the eticics ?i l A - c i c u 6, to examine wr ous to the in, ward+ tfure founded +PA ioule not to *al ..1 P i tt operate to of mc WO Countries, .or oppofed, he ous ( ible means, to 6.1 would be un. Mak °ern u formed and u - 'England and o rt ow'undertake ". I favour, and to e Bridal Coil- 411 : Who madi the WI