Star. — London, England, 1802-06-04 00:00:00

the effaCt of e the cufpicions of' the monied men ? He Paid, that any alleviation of Taxes which took place were fmall in reality. yet its principle and circd were cl the fird importance, and by the old Sinking Fond, this alleviation would have commenced in fix years hence. Such an immediate operation would be felt and acknow ledged by every one ; whereas people were little affeaed by calculations of ditlant advantages which they did not underfland. If our debt be of fuch magnitude as to require the moll power ful means to fubduc it, the moil proper method furcly would be to combine the operations of the old and new plans, and thus form a machine of infinite force and efficacy. The refluation of in teteft by the continual porchafes of the farmer plan, he always looked upon as a great objea ; but the new plan, inilead of lefilnin!.; the ifitereft, foe many years had the contrary cried, by leav ing a great quantity of Stock in the Market, and of comic reducing its value. From all three con fiderations, he found himfelf called upon by his duty to oppole any deviation frnm the plait of the Sinking; Fund, fandioned by Parliament in 1792. The CHANCELLCR oldie EKCH FIVER raid, that wh dryer might be the difference of opini on be twesn his Hon. Friend and himielf, on the. fob. jea now before the Committee, there cenainly was note in the Houle, with refpeet to the motive of his Hon. F, iend ; and whatever variety of opinion might be entertained in the Committee on the fob ;Oa atilt', he was lure there was no difference of opinion on the point of bringing it fairly before the Honfe; there certainly had been no attempt at any deception whatever, no endeavour had been made to draw a veil over the matter; hut on the contrary, eve• v endeavour had been iffed to lay it before Pa , iiament as clearly and dillinely as potilhle ; that the reel nature and all the circronflances of the cafe might he made manifell. Indeed, he believed. there never was a cafe in which more pains were taken to cad light upon the fubjea to he difculfed than the prefent, the very Tithes of Gentlemen for information on it had beer, anticipated in every way they could do, and that with as much difpatch as the intricacy and importance of the fubjeet would admit ; he trufted, therefore, that thofe who brought forward this meafure, would now at lead Itand well with the Houk itfell, and that they would be entitled to the credit of having pur fued a courfe directly oppofite to that of decep tion, in laying th s Winds before the Houle.— His Hon. Friend had given a defcription of this Meafure, which he lhould be lorry it defcrved, that of being a Temporary Isleafure ; whether that charaEter was appropriate to it, was for the Committee to determine ; he would fay with con. 6dence, that whatever might be thought of his Majelty's prefent Servants, the Right Hon. Gen tleman, who was the author of the great Nleafnie, the original plan on which the prefent Mcafute was founded, (Mr. Prir) was not likely to agree to a Meafure that was temporary in Inch a cafe as this; he was no friend to any temporizing Syllem of Policy; all his planswere broad and permanent : he was convinced, that if this Syfiem had been of a temporizing nature, that Right Hon. Gentleman would have been the first to have lifted up his voice againft it; intlead of which he had already declared he did not confider it as incanfillent in any degree with his original fyftem'a if it had in any degree defeived the imputation caft upon it, if tended to weaken the fyliem of that Right Hon. Gentleman fair the liquidation of the Na tional Debt, or had a bearing againit that plan on which his fair fame was In well founded, and an inviolable adherence to which had fo juflly con tributed to fwell it to its prefent magnitude, he would have railed his voice agitioft the meafure ; he would have called upon the Houle, with the affection of .t parent. to protect his child, when he Law that not only its health, hut even its exigence was in danger ; but that Right Hon. Gentleman had no 111.1 apprehenfion ; on the contrary, he Law, and he had expreffed it, that the prefent meafure was perfealy confonant to the fpirit of his fyilem for the reduCtion of the National Debt. His Hon. Friend, who had fyoken Tall, had laid; that the whole of the advantage of the prefent meafure arore from the relief which it would af ford to the Public, by laving, the imposition of tames in the piolent year, to the amount of S'elo,oool. Ht del not think his Hon. Friend had examined the plan with his lifted accuracy, for it he had, he would not have hated that as the only advantage of :his meafure. 'What was the efft.a of the plan, as appeared from papers laid before the Huiil That in a year when taxes to a limper amount than were ever before imputed in one Stilton of Par ktment, permanent tale; laid upon the people, their tires a thipolition on the part of the Executive Government to .ecommend a meafure, the effect of which, was to avoid an immediate ho :hen upon the pcoole to the amotiat of non- f e e:we:el. and yet, at the fame time, very much acceleratiog the rednaio n of the `rational Debt ; and alfo to leave Parliament at liberty, in the year 'Boo, to apply stocool. the amount of the Short Annuities that would then fill in. It was atfu ttated, that an ad• ditional confetpience of that plan would be, to I,ove at the difpofal of Parliament, in the event pay Oig off the 5 per cent. between r,4e0,0001. ;111'i f,soo,ouol. for the refluCtion of the Public Debt, o r to relieve the people from taxes to that Upon this point particular Ilref, had t ra n ieid, and if at this p e riod it ()mold be th e dif peetion of Parliament to relieve the people from the then of taxes, they might apply the Ste,oen!. :;hart Annuities, and the 1,5c0,00c1. ; Cor e would then be a relief . to the people of 3.ca0.c001. and the relief of 9ae.,0001. was, he ii•ivs, immediate. But it was ree fur him to pre- V . rne how Pailiarnent would :t.ct in the exercile 01 its diferetion in the year t`dc3.—Bat fuch vaaild be the 'tate of things when the five and Nit per Cants were paid off, a period which vowel not b e anticipated with preening]; but it was l'enal,le to hate it at this otriod.—Sueli were t!ie retornmeodation.; of the meafure now before t Committee ; but was that the whsle ? no liiiiig• —His Honourable Friend had laid. t th e term. Confolidation was a term of fie c-aier in this cafe, whiclt was certainly not fo. Z.e differ:zee between the prefent plan acti that attic Sinkftng Pa' nJ Aibl;theJ in-r 7116, and which was called the old Sinking Fond was this, that in 808, when a dircretion was to be afforded to Par liament with refped to the meats:re of difpofing of what was in the hands of the Commiffioners for the relief of the People in taking s.tf Taxes, it was propofed, initead of arrelling the progrels of this Fund, it was to go on until the produaive powers of compound interest, in conjonetion with the other Fund, had worked the difchlrge of the whole Debt ; inftead of refling at 1808, it was to conti nue its operation until the whole Debt was dill charged:—What was the tyftem of 1792 ? By that measure it was provided, that one per cent. timid be railed of every Loan that Bionid thereafter be made, in proportion to the film hoirowed, and which was to operate till the Debt which it was calculated to redeem fliould he Jill:barged, and the furplus to be at the difpotal of Pai lianicnr.— The alteration now propoted was, that initead of this being at the difpond of Parliament, it be added to the Sinking Fund, and both to go on until the whole Debt was redeemed. Mete were the altera. liens, and it appeared under the pretent plan. It appeared under the old plan, fuppofin,, ,, the 3 per j cents at par, and the 4 and 5 paid off, the old debt would be extinguilhed in forty•tOur years and four months from February !aft.—Suppofing the 3 per cents at 75, the whole Debt would be paid off in 32 years and to months ; th at un d er t h e o p erat i on j of the Syllem of 1792, the Debts incurred fince that time would be difcharged, loppofisig the 3 per cents at par, in 45 years and 7 months. Suppofing ; the 3 per cents at 75, the whole of the new Debt would be dis Charged in 35 years and three months. By the Confolidated Syllem now propofed, the whole of that Debt would be extinguished in 3 t years, that was to fay, in four years lets time than by the plan of 1792, and in three years lets than the operation of the plan of 1786 would effeanate its purpofe.—Suppofing the 3 per cents at 75, the effect of this coniblidated plan would be to extol guifh the whole of the exiting Debt in 33 years and feven months, that was to fay, the debt exill ing previous to the plan of 1786. The period allowed by the An of 1792 for extinguilhing the Debt fince, was, 45 years ; and if Gentlemen would look at the papers before them, they would find the effed of the confolidated plan would be, fuppofing the 3 per cents at par, not only to extinguilh near 498,000,0031. but alfo to provide for the extindion of near 400303,0001. more ; and fuppofing the 3 per cents at 75,the effed of the confolidared plan would he, not only to pay off the whole of the prefent Debt, but alto afford the means of paying off 44,0c0,0001.—N0w he would a& the Committee, whether a meafure, the tired of which was to afford immediate relief to the amount of 900,0301. and to afford relief, if Parliament should chute to avail itfelf of the opportunity in 1808, of bringing 5 t 2,0001. and the 1,500,0001. in the manner hehad already Rated, to the relief of the Public in Taxes, without retarding the progrefs of the Syllem of 1786 or 1792 He would afk, lie faid, whether this was a plan that could ha confidered as a departure from the fyllem of 1786 or of 1792 ? What would be the effed of the At of 1786, in taking off the Taxes ? According to the mode Bated by his Hon. Friend the carlieit period under the At of 1786, at which it would be pollible to apply any part of the money in the hands of the Commißioners to take off taxes, would be 1808 ; and, if the 3 per cents were at 92, 130,0301. would be the annual rum to be taken off in taxes. Now it was to be recolle&ed lay the Committee, that by the prefent plan, at that period, the public will have had the benefit of avoiding die charge annually of 900,0001. and the interell of 4,200,0001. would be applicable from year to year for the reduaion of the debt ; and, to take of taxes in 1808, the fum of 512,0001. and the fum of ,5c0,0301. that would fall in by the Short Annuities, would be applicable, as he had already Hated. In 1808, under the old fyllem, 120,0001. fuppofing the 3 per cents. to be at par, would be annually paid in the courfe of 12 years -12 times tzo,oool. would be the amount of relief , afforded to the fubjea in taxes previous to the year 1820 ; the whole purchafe of which would be about B,oao,cacol. What would be the died :41 the other cafe ? The public, intlead of being relieved 12 times 120,0001. would be relieved to the ex tent of 3,000,0c01, that is, they will have paid' above 40,000u0001. lefs in taxes than they would have been liable to in the other cafe. He now came to the Strong point of ohjeuion which was made to this plan, and which had been Rated by his Hon. Friend, and he was accurate as to time and fustis; dune would be an interval in which the quantity of unredeemed stoek would be greater by the meafure now propoled than it would by the fyllem now in force.—Here he proceeded through the fiatement of the calculations number 2, of the printed papers, Slating how the unredeemed Rock would Rand at t!iffercnt periods.; (hewing amongst other things, that fiippoling the 3 per Cents at 75, and the 4 and 5 at par, &c. the difference in the j mafs of unredeemed flock under the two plans in the year 1825, will be 26,0040,000 t To this he had to propole this confideration (*without repeat ing others he had Rated fo often already), and to which he attached great importance, nftmely, the relief afforded in the interim, by not impoling the burden of 900.0001. Taxes yearly, and the means :ifforded ot giving relief by atnally taking Taxes oti, which lie had Alia Rated already ; but let the Committee recoiled, that the period when this difference would fubfift would not be long, and, as the amount of the unredeemed flock was greater at that period, fo in a fhort time afterwards the preterit plan would outstrip the other, and then its progrefs would be made with accelerated ve locity towards the total extinaima of the Debt, fo as to leave behind at a vaR dillance the plans of 1736 and of t 792. In faring this, and in taking the calculations upon the fuppofition of the 3 per Cants being at 75, he hoped the Committee would not fuppofe that he was taking the molt fa vourable poiture of our probable fiate of Finance ; he had certainly hopes of a much more favoura ble condition for them.—He was fully aware, as hiA Honourable Friend had Rated, how- difficult it wa, to ru;;lce arguments intelligible on filch a ftihjed as this : he had only to recapitulate the fttbllazze of what he had stated iircady on the tohjeet of this Plaa, the benefits of which were there, the immediate effea of affording relief to the amount of 900,0001. annually, by. forbearing to lay on Taxes to that amount.—A further re lief in t 808 to the extent of 512,0001. by the Short Annuities which would then fall in, and a Rill further relief when the 5 and 4 per Cents !ball have been redeemed ; and in 1808 the plan of taking off Taxes may commence, at the will of Parliament, but which he hoped would be con tinued to be carried to the reduftion of the Debt ; and, finally, that the whole of the prefent National, Debt will have been paid ofF much Conner by this new plan than it would have been by the old ones, both of 1786 and 1792. He had not concealed from the Committee the objedions to which this plan was liable; he admitted them as far as they went ; but fubmitted to the Committee, that they were much more than counterbalan ced by the advantages of the meafure. The ef feft of this plan was, that it would extinguifh the National Debt in a much fhorter period than by the former plan, arid it afforded re lief for the payment of 9, - ,0,0001. Taxes. It afforded means alfo for fitpporting the Finances of this Country, in the event of its being engaged in %Var, either fo r th e f ecur i t y o f i ts poffeflions t nr the maintenance of its Honour. It was for there objets, that he fubmitted this plan fur the appro. Ration of the Committee, for the immediate relief it would afford in paying 900,0001. Taxes, for the provilion it made for the eetindion of the whole Debt, much lower than by the former plans—not that he meant to fay that this plan was of a differ ent nature, or founded on different principles from chore of 86 and 92, fo far from being fii, it was a meafure growing out of thefe plans, and it tended to (hew the wifdom in which they were founded ; and thefe plans were not only capable of producing all the advantages he had mentioned, and which we all had witneffed within there eight or nine years in particular, but to thefe plans he imputed the fe curity we had found for every thing that was dear to us, efpecially our Conilitution. Mr. TIERNEY made many acknowledgments to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, for his teadi nefs in communicating information upon this fub jeft, and the candour which he had difplayed in all the proceedings connefted with it. A fenfe of duty, however, compelled him to oppofe a mea lure which in his opinion was ill advifed. What ever political hoftility there might have been be tween him and the late Minitler, he had at all times admired and praifed the wifdom and perle verance he (hewed in his plans to reduce the Na tional Debt. That perfeverance he thought well worthy of imitation, and though the late Chancellor of the Exchequer had approved of this new [theme, he could not forget that that Right Hon. Gentle man had never brought it forward himfelf, al though he might have done fo with equal plaufi bility as his fucceffor. This certainly was breaking in upon the fyflem eflabliflted in 1792, which re dounded fo much to the fair fame of its author. He entreated his Maelly's prefent Chancellor of the Exchequer to ta ke care left he laid the foundation for fame of a very different fort. Speeches would be forgotten, and it would only appear by the Journals, that as Coon as the Right Hon. Gen tleman came into office he changed a fyftem allow ed on all hands to be fo beneficial. He allowed that Parliament had a complete controul over the old Sinking Fund, and if any wife change in its ma nagement were propofed, it would meet with his cordial fupport. The old Sinking Fund was a bo nus given to the Stockholder without any confide ration. This propofed change, tho' potlibly expe dient, was a melancholy acknowledgment that our refources were materially impaired, and that taxes could no longer be found. There would be this inconfiftency in the journals, that while one page recorded a vote of thanks to the late Minißer. among many other things, for having preferved and railed the credit of the country, the next would declare that the fyftem of finance thus ex tolled was neceffarily abandoned, and that Govern ment was obliged to retort to new expedients.— By not paying in the 9000l:to the Commiffioners, the Aft of 1792 was evidently infringed. That required that no money fhould be borrowed with out provifion being made for the extinftion of the debt within 45 years. To talk of this being a pro vifiou was trifling. Nearly zoo millionsmore might be borrowed, and laid to be provided for in the fame way. For many years no progrefs would have been made in the redemption whatever ; and the period when the fyftem would begin to operate was fo remote that no confidence could be placed in its effefts. Nothing but the pref fure of circumflances could jullify this Bill ; and if Gentlemen would defend it upon this ground it riould have his warmelt fupport. He did not mean to fay that the Right Honourable Gentleman meant to deceive the Houle, but the Houle certainly was deceived. For the fake of their children they might enter into thefe fpe culations, or rather as matter of mere curiofity. Few could be fo fanguine as to hope to witnefs the effefts of the Sinking Fund 3o or 4o years hence. But it was even qinte impoflible to fay if poierity would abide by the plan now adopt ed. Might not fome future Chancellor of the Exchequer come down and fay, that fince they did not feel the weight of the national debt, the Sinking Fund had better be applied to tem porary purpofes This fpecies of calculation was not like meafuring the dillance of the fun. There every mile was exaftly like that which went before it. But it was quite impoffible to forefee what would be the Rate of the country in a very few years. Events might happen every day to derange the belt formed theories. He could compare the Right Hon. Gentleman to nothing but a fchool boy, calculating how many barley corns it would require to furround the earth, or how long it would take a cannon ball to fly to the moon. Let the Houk confider the fate of the molt bold and ingenious calculator that ever appeared. In 1798 the late Chancellor of :he Exchequer commencing his folid fyaem of finance, maintained that it was quite unneccifary to provide t per cent• upon the loan, as in two, five, or, at the very utmoa, ten years, the whole would be redeemed. Now there I was not one trace of that folit iNteat making if and the debt then incurred Would continue to an indefinite period to burthen the people. When fuch a fine fabric had given way within three ' years, how could he exped that another, feemingly not more fubltantial, Ihould !aft for forty-two years ? A Noble Lord had maintained, that im mediately upon the arrival of peace fifteen millions a year would be paid into the hands of the Commit finnei s ; hut in lead of ten millions more, they recelv. ed goo,osol. lcfs than the Ad ofParl ia meat required. The circumflance of this plan, at one period, leay. ing 40 millions more unredeemed, was of itfelf de cifive. In cafe of a future war our fituation would not, by any means, be fo advantageous. A wor. thy Alderman, and other Loan Contractors, had often expreffed the fatisfadion they felt on canter?). plating the Sinking Fund. Would they fay fo now? Fur the paltry fum of 8 or goo,oool. it was not worth while to be guilty ofthis breach of faith. Betides, a fpecific fund was already provided for, as the Right Hon. Gentleman had taken credit for nearly a million more than he would want.— He would willingly incur all the unpopularity of laying this additional burden upon the people. He had thought very deeply upon the filbjed, and he was more and more convinced that the plan was either abfurd, or that it did not go far enough...-. Great difficulties alone could jullify it, and if our difficulties were fo great, more vigorous meafures iliould have been reforted to. In the 'Well of the numerous and almoll intolerable impols to which we were fubjed, it was formerly tome confolati on that we could look forward with tome degree of 'confidence to a period when they would be 'aimed. Now the profpfd was dark and dreary,and we were detn ived of hope, the laft refuge of the wretched. The C N rine et. Loa of the Exert say CR difclairtied the idea of bringing forward this meafure, in conk , quence of any preffure in our finances, the profper ous (late of which was never more confpicuoufly manifelted than in the terms of the laft loan ; it was no fmall evidence that this plan was not cal culated to depreciate the (lability of Government, or to dircourage the money-lenders, that the Con tradors for the hit Loan were fully acquainted of it, before that loan was concluded. He added, that he had the bell reafons to hope, that the Con folidated Fund would be reinforced in its progrefs, by the application of Parliamentary grants, an thorifed by the growing profperity of the country. Mr. Tisaitsv declared that he had no very fanguine hope of any fuch reinforcements as the Right Hon. Gentleman alluded to. The CHANCELLOR of the Excimayett laid, he was not Linguine, but he relied upon it, that the furplus of taxes would produce It. Mr. THORN rox expreffed his doubts of the pro. priety of the prefent meafure, though not exadly on the grounds urged by other Gentlemen. He denied that it was any breach of the public faith. It, however, clearly poftponed our difficulties.-. It eafed the country for the prefent, but it pro mired to burthen poflerity, and gave a pledge in refpe& to the future which had not before been given—his objedtion was that the fyflem now pro. pored would not have the advantage over the old in accelerating the ipayment of debt, until after the probable period of the next war. A war might happen once either in 20 or 3o years, or in to or 15 years, or in 5 or to years. If it Should not happen till the lateft of thole periods, the prefent plan might give us an advantage in the courfe of fuch a war; but if in to or 15 years the cafe would be the contrary. Now prudence, as he thought, required, that we Should fo form our Sinking Fund as to obtain from it the greatett relief within the time of the earließ probable recurrence of wan-. One great objed of a Sinking Fund, was to fortify our finances againfl the event of war. The obfer vation made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer had, however, greatly contributed to remove his objection; for he now underflood that it was in Tome meafure intended to reinforce the finking fund by fums in addition to thofe to w hich this Bill would pledge the Parliament. His idea was, that conlidering the Rate of Europe, we ought to make rapid progrefs in extinguilhing our debt ; he would not fay in the next one or two, but at leap in the next eight or ten years. if the Sinking Fund was confidered as forming only the minimum or fmalleft fum applicable to this purpofe, the anneal fum propofed by this Bill might proba bly be fufficient. He trilled, however, that Go vernment would, at no very diftant time, take into their confideration the propriety of enlarging the Sinking Fund in fuels degree as might fuit the cuill ing dangers and eircumllances of the country. He was willing to vote a large Sinking Fund on the fame principle on which he agreed to an enlarged Peace Eflablifhment, the one like the other being the means of preventing War, by making prepara tion againft it. Mr. BOYD vindicated the confolidation of the two Funds, as a meafure likely to be molt effec. tive, and to afford the molt prolific grounds of fa. tisfaiftion. In 45 years, by the propofed meafure, 561 millions of debt would be extinguifhed, which. according to his calculation, was 68 millions be yond its prefent amount. But if, on the contrary, after the lapfe of ten years, we Should have again the calamitous vifitation of war, it was a confola. tion to know, that in that time we fhould have ex tinguifhed 65 millions of our debt, and that, at the fame time, die Sinking Fund, which now amount. ed to one 87th part, would then amount to one 55th part of the whole of the public burden. Some Gentlemen had complained of the lengthened pc. nod mentioned for the liquidation of the public debt ; but as the confolidation of the two Funds would accelerate its termination by Come years, they were bound, even by their own argum.:ats, to give it o . preference. Mr. N. VANSITTART obferved upon the advan. cages that would be derived from the prefent men. fure. There was one point, he obferved, that might be liable to objedion, as to the large fum which would eventually be placed in the hands of the Commiffioners for the Reduction of the Na. tional Debt, and thrown upon the market; but if this produced any evils it mull be left to future Parliaments to apply the remedy; at prefent they mutt not omit to apply that remedy which was is their hands to an exiling evil. Mr. 'Paean remarked, that from a review of