Star. — London, England, 1802-12-09 00:00:00

Amiens. But how came it, after all thefe places • I bad been given up, and onrgarrifons brought home, , that we should now be called on to vote fo great a force, not having thofe places to defend ? He knew he should probably be told by a Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman oppofite to him (the Attor ney General), that from him, and thole with whom he ailed, ftrong oppofition fpeeches led to marvel lous good Government votes. He admitted the fait, and for very good reasons, namely, that though they approved the meafures, they dila!). proved the men. He withed thofe men out of power, and others in their place. For his own part, he did not hefitate to fay, that he thought, upon the whole, the continuance of War would have been better than the . Peace which had been concluded ; and that if it should now be found ne ceifary to renew the war—there was one perfon to whom the country looked up to with reliance ; and to whom the country, in granting a Supply, would alfo give its confidence, for the application of that Supply in a manner confillent with the honour and the interefts of the country. He concluded by voting foe the Supply, but not in any confidence to his Majefty's Minifters. General MAITLAND was far from depreciating the opinions of thofe Gentlemen who argued for low Peace Eftablifhments ; but before he admitted the generality of the rule, he mull examine the foundation of it. He differed in teto from thofe, who argued that low Eftablifhments were the po licy of our fore-fathers, upon any other ground, than that of their with to preferve what was called the Balance of Power in Europe. In voting the Supply of this night, thofe who looked at the power of France, would perceive the Houfe was exafily treading in the Reps of our anceflors ; who, how ever jealous they were of arming the Crown with a large military force, in time of Peace, were always prompt 'to grant it whenever the public fafety re quired it. A Noble Lord had arraigned Minifters this night eor calling on the Houfe to vote an extra ordinary force, without explaining an iota of the caulks which rendered it neceffary. But if the pub lic notociety of the (late ofEurope was notfufficient to ev:nce jhe neceffity of that force to the Noble Lord, no human power could adduce reafon fuffi cient to fatisf: him. Indeed; the speech of the Noble Lord himfelt this night, and there of his friends in sill the debates which had occurred on fimilar fob lofts, had admitted and illnftrated the neceftity. Into a detail of the melancholy &nation of the other Powers of Europe he would not enter, but, looking at France, the enormous mats of her po pulation, the fpirit and temper of her people, and the principles of action by which the genius of the cowry wasgoverned,it was impoffi ble for thi s coun try to be free from alarm. The fpirit of the peo. pia of France was marked by an ardour for mili tary enterprise, which had eminently dillinguifhed itself through gawps for the Taft ten years, and now that fpirit was pointed towards this country no a promtfing fource of spoil. What was the fpirit of this Country towards France ? Not a it of war and bloodfhed . Goa forbid The iris inculcated ip England from the cradle was a spit it of jealonfy and rivalfhip towards France ; asd when it was confidered, that the only country from which France had received any effeetual check' in her late career, was England—was it not obvious then that all her jealousy would be roofed againft this country ; and with fuck powers as (he now poffeifed, was he to be told, that a low Peace Ella blitbment was a proper pledge for onr fecurity ? The pest thing to be eonfidered was the will of France towards this Country ; and there we should 1 find, that whatever caufe exifted for exaggerating, there was none to abate our" alarm. He perfea• 1, agreed with the sentiment of the Right Hon. Gentleman who opened this debate, that aggra vatin eaarperated language ought not to be used, and therefore he would not give a name to his feelings, as to the conduct of France towards Switzerland. But if France had the will, it was the duty of this Houk to take care the should not pads the means to deftroy this country.— When the motion was made a few nights fusee for 50,000 Seamen, he fhould have gone away well contented with the vote, satisfied upon the publi city of thofe circumftances which juaified it.— But yet he was perfuaded it was not fo much in the number, as in the arrangement of that force, vr,as our pledge for fafety. But when he heard it, aliened, from indubitable authority, that the tinkle and gallant Admiral at the head of the navy was feduloufly occupied in the arrangement of that branch of the public force, and with fo much effed as to be able to fend to fea fifty (hips of the line, within one month of the fifty evidence of hoftility on the part of France, and a confides-able part of that force much fooner ; when he beard that we pafeetTed a Meet ins high Rate of equipment, fupe riot by mow than one-third to the combined fleets of France Spain and Holland, he would not hell , • titi to octrua to that gallant officer the force and the confidence of the country, with whore defence hi was charged. With repel to the eftablifhment propofed this night.be agreed with the Right Hon. Secretary at War, that in its numbers confined the fmalleft part of its ftrength : to the united fpirit, firmnefs, and promptitude, which adluated the Army, was to he fuperadded, that of the Volan. seers, and the univerfal ardour and feeling of the Country. Fur without thefe, little, indeed, would ,hyail the numbers of both Army and Navy. With rotpoit to the Peace which had been concluded, if there was any man in the Kingdom, who fhould foil . more a k liged than 20940, it was the Right Honourable Gentleman on the floor, (Mr. Wysid• hip), who had been the moa lisenuoits tearraign it. Had the War continued longer, the Table of the Houfe would have been catered with Petitions fez ;hat very Peace, when the fpirits of the peo- Of would have been &prefect, perhaps, beyond the power of rallying :—but by the Peace, the ffinit of the country was revived ; and having bail an interval to reflea on its fituatian, was tripled fop the common Etfety,. He could not - to Itich had idle& ternal fafety ; and to place the country .on tt fpeftable footing, adequate to the perils of her U. tuation. Having !tilted his opinions, he had heitation in giving his hearty fupport to his bk. jelly's prefent Minifters, notwithftanding the with' of a Noble Lord for their removal from power ; for the country would feel that by fuch a removal they would have to experience the return of men into office, who would prefer war to peace, who had conitantly oppofed every thing like the reftor ation of amity with France, and would again . ' plunge the country into immediate hollilities.— But, preferring, as he did, the maintenance of peace, if praaicable upon terms contillent with the honour and fafety of the country, and con vinced as he was,that a refpatable public force was the heft means of preferving it, he would give his moil hearty affent to the propofed Eftablithment. General TARLETON Paid, he was greatly fur prifed at hearing what had fallen from the Noble Lord who had jut fat down. For his part he re joiced molt fincerely at the termination of the war, and hoped and trufted that Minifters would not be again driven to take up arms from the reftlefs and dominating fpirit of France. He thought the etlimates propofed to be voted extremely necessary for the fecurity of the kingdom. The Hon. Ge neral then trod nearly over the fame line of argu ment ufed by the Right Hon. Secretary at War to prove the neceffity of keeping up a large eftablifh ment at prefent. He had confcientionfly voted againft the further profecution of the war, and he thought he could as confcientioufly vote for the Peace. He was certain in his own mind that this country enjoyed mor.: pritaital freedom, and eon fcquently more real happinefs than any other in Europe. In viewing the prefent Rate of France, he perceived her fi e rft Magiftrate to be a man of the molt eminent capacity, and the molt fplendid talents. He had been defcribed as the difciple of Mahomet, and the Envoy of GOD ; but a gallant Officer, now a Member of that Houfe, had (truck the ftandard from the hands of this Difciple of Mahomet, and he trulled the Envoy would not find any credit in this country. He expreffed him felt free from any alarm, as from the refpeetable attitude of our fleets and armies, he doubted not we should at all times be able to meet our enemies with fuccefs. Mr. ARCHDALI Paid, he hoped the prefent efta blithmentwould be taken as a proof of the fpirit and unanimity of the country. It was not the voice of irritation, but that of an united people determined to preferve their rights, and prepared on all hands to exert vigorous meafures when neceffary, that would teAdfto the fafety of the kingdom from all attacks whatever. It had been the praaice of fame Hon. Gentlemen to vote the country into meafures of defence, but to talk it into thofe of defpair. The Hon. Gentleman argued on hart fibilties when he contended, that - France gin have refources in pillage and alliances wi = th the conquered. He was therefore for the motion. Mr. CARTWZIGHT obferved, that the caufe of complaint manifelled in that Houk againfl his Majefty's Minifters, was, the want of information alledged to be due from them , to the Houfe ; nor were thofe who were diffittisfied in that refpea at all inconfiftent by their votes. They difapproved of Minifters, but they would not, on that account, deliver the country over to the enemy. This Op pefition was upon a pure principle, not like former Oppofitions, efpecially in the war before the laft, where every thing was done with a mere view of haraffing Government. Mr. WHITBREAD agreed with the Hon. Gentle. man (Mr. Banks) that the keeping up fo large an eltablifhment as the one now propofed, was al together unneceffary. The chief ground of his objeaion to the prefent Eftimates arofe from a confideration that they appeared to him to be on an infinitely more extenfive kale, than the relative fituation of affairs between the two countries by any means required. Whatever plans might be in agitation, or might aftually have been fubmitted to the confideration of Minifters, he was of opinion, that plan would be by far the beft, and moil to be depended upon, which at once evinced confiftency and firmnefs • for in there there was a tower of ftrength. The Navy Eftimates were confiderably larger than was originally intended ; the Rt. Hon. Gentleman having ftated that 30,000 men would be a fufficient number, and then afterwards he comes forward and demands so,ooo men. He was not in the Houfe when the vote was agreed to, or he fhould have given his reafons for chapproving of it. tie did not totally objet to the vote, but he thought the power fhould have been vefted in the Honfe ' and not in Minifters, as approaching nearer the Conftitution. They had not Rated whether the vote was to be limited to, the period of one year, or whether it was to be confidered as the permanent Peace E ftabli fitment. lithe Eftablifhment of France waslooked to with attention, it would be found that it was not by any means greater than under the old Government of the Houfe of Bourbon. A gre't many exaggerated flatements of the fituation of France had been unneceffarily made with refpeft to her flrength ; but could it be fuppored,for a mo ment, that the means the had taken to keep up her force, were intended for any other purpofe than to repel any attack that ntiglit be direaed againfl her. France had ton freqt► felt, and felt (everely, the power of Great Britain, both by land and fea, to with heftily to commence meafures of hoitility. His Hon. Friend had argued on the probable ag- H greffion on the part of France, but he coefead he derived no appreheprioa from ;ha; quarter. He then adverted to the fituation of the Navy, and the probability theyt was, that in a &kat time, a large addition to the , tom of the country weight be got ready. This s onlsnmeafttros4 (teeeevy caution%) our part, and why gloom ipot this country bare the cline opinios; withrefpea to de. eiseetieigs of trance. For the rapt& of prc, sv,ias with what earn grotind iefs opinions ar b.e (IWO. tad the isorits of a nation mi be *bee the sutildou defined for St. Domingo vas prepared, it was is *asiouily that Jr ca_lculated to at loci. Foxed „ins *at etir - haergeoll6.lo4 cordeadastolge a. would not hefitate 'to maintilo ! 'dud of Frame, with refpeet to Swatterlank had nothing in common with elle politic / 4 ' l ttshts . land claims of Great Britain. But whatetiet` 'be the ambition of the Fiat Conful; there did did pot, he would undertake to fay, emit one per fon who thought it ftiperiar to that difplayed by his predeceffore in power. The Hotife of Bour bon was engaged in'uninterrupted fchemes or ma nifeft attempts to injure the interefts of this coun try, and of the difficulties in which we were in volved on account of thefe machinations, no rea fonable man could entertain a doubt. He therefore firenuoutly oppofed the views and attempts of the party, which, without any folid grounds, exerted every faculty, and tried every art to raife the fpi- rit of alarm, and throw the natit - into trouble and coalition. He viewed the late peace with the ' higheft fatisfaetion, and trolled, that a fmall Mili- ! tary and Naval Eftablithment would anfwer every end of external independ.:nce and internal fecu rity. The men who had reduced the country to a calamitous fituation, he fincerely trailed, would not be again called Into power, but he was proud to fay, that there were men, whole virtues and abi ' lities, if called into adion, would give new ener gies to the refources and fpirit of the nation, and tend, in the moil fatisfalory way, to the confoli dation of the relations of peace and amity. General MAITLAND explained. Mr. RYDER obferved, it was unneceffary for hint to reply to the attack made on his Right Hon. Friend. That attack was always made when he was abfent. It could eafily be replied to by thofe who had witnetred his condo& for eighteen years ; but the coarfe epithets which had been ufed were belt anfwered by the gratitude of the country to wards that Right Hon. Perfon on whom the abufe was lavithed. Having laid this much, he pro ceeded to confider the queffion before the Com mittee. Were we to declare that it was our inten tion to fit fill, with fmall eftablifhments without allies, and fee France devour the veil of t hei world, content U the thould make a faap at us the latt ? or is it. fuppofed that the is fatisfied with the pu nifhment the has inflided ? That' punithment is i not, it was true, regretted in a certain quarter.— It has been Rated, that we deferved it, and. fatif fadion has been exprelred that the war had ended gloriouilyfor France, and inglorioully for England. But were we to negled all the refources of defence in our Power, 'while France was increafing her Power ? Were we to wait for events and to re main watching the ofcillations of the balance of Europe until the Gaul threw his fword into the fcale, and made it preponderate for ever ? He believed the people were happy to bear the expence of an eftabliffiment neceffary for the fecurity of the Nation. He alked Minifters for no explana tions, and was ready to vote for the motion with out any of that information which Tome Gentlemen resit!ired. Mr. SHERIDAN addrefl'ed the Houle to the fol lowing drat :--" Sir, in requefting the attention of the Houle to the remarks I have to offer, I con , firs myfelf fomewhat in a fimilar fituation, and af feded nearly by the fame impreffion, as the Hon. Gentleman who has kill fat down. I do not pre cifely agree with any of thofe Gentlemen who have hitherto expreffed their opinion of the prefent fitu ation of the country. The crifis in which we are placed is, indeed, fo big with tremendous impor tance, fo pregnant with mighty difficulties, fu full Of apprehenfions and of perils, that the Houfe, and the country, have a right to know what the inten tions and the views of thofe are by whore exertions we may exped to be extricated from this complica tion of embarraffments, and fnatched from the very brink of deftrudion. Influenced by this afped cf affairs, the country looks for advice. It is not Ad miniltration alone that is called on for this declara tion of their fentiments, but alfo every Member of this Houfe, who is equally bound to deliver his opinion, and to fuggeft the means by which the country can be prelerved from the perils which threaten it. Thus affeded in my mind, I have no hefltation to alien, that I do fincerely regret 'fuch conftant alluflon thould be made to the charader and talents of the Gentlemen who at this moment fill the fituation of his Maje fly's Mini tiers. Although I admire, in the highett degree, the talents of many Gentlemen to whom I am in principle, and in perfon molt ftrongly attached, yet I feel it my duty to withhold myfelf from imitating the ex ample let by tome, who, in a crifis fit pregnant with alarm, entertain themfelves with allufions to a particular man, or to any particular let of men. For if ever there was a moment when this Houle thould thew to the Country, Europe, and the World, that they were deluded by no party fpitit, Wafted by no political prediledions, aetuated by no paltry fcramble for places; influenced, in a word, -by no mean or mercenary motives, the pre fent curtly is that moment. But in ail - cuffing the topics more immediately under the confideration of the Houle, I thould perhaps attend to the ad. vice of thofe who dill - Lade the adoption of all of perky of language, all virulence of animadverfion refpeding the charader and condud of the Firft Conful of France. In purfuing the line of condut fo ftrongly recommended, I feel it, however, in cumbent upon me to fpeak the language of truth; yet in delivering that language with franknefs and candour, I may, and it is not at all improbable that I (hall wore myfelf to the charge of utter ing invectives. An Hon. General, when alluding to the late condud held by Bonaparte with refped to Switzerland, pledged himfelf to refrain from a free opinion on the fobjed ; yet it fa happened, when he did take a view of it, more particularly as it related to Switzerland, he could not abilain rum reprobating the inflances of perfidy and ty reflux which charaderifed the meaCitres of the Firft Confal in regard to that harmlefs, brave, and in oMenGve people. An Hon. Friend ( Mr.Whitbread) alluding to,the fame meafures, maintains that they give ri.4 but to one opinion; yet he does notfcruple r to eenfure the Hon. General for forfeiting the he had given, in exprang his fentiments lof indignation at the treatment experienced by the ISmits, l'hus„ Sir, it evidently appears, that the opi. nigni of the Hon. Gentleman is, or isnot' adopted by my Ilea. FTiend. If he adopts it, and does not lionapartes invofion of Switzerland, he afire from the Ron. General, and it re:r,yanua:l l- . l ee n ' :)F follows that there is not ooe, but two 3iY i : r , • T'W refpedl to the condufeetntohifiedthey:oC;iich,,ietilli,Ctrodien,s4;fil-nilnl:jt,..::tl n ce . fituation t l u t a l t s i a o s n la n e that the changes which have v arc ta k en hi .gd . n, 1 , 64Pc, Irl th,. i relative n n figning of the De fi nitive T i e o fi m de e r n e t d ; as it i i i in i a l of a l g t g - re iii[;,: o no ugilt very ii o material to b . s b een f• . , eco ni n the condu& of France, with f A f a il , ti.i' re pc,. to Swine-la 7 .,..1.,,. '. again(' this country ; and it has • a been boldly av , )v . eel, that we have nothing • to dread, on the '.. le p art , i the French Republic, but her inc ' rear and her reliefs fpirit of ag,grandiierti.;iet.ofi;c;:.,tr low me to Rik, is not this a fullici - ;,.. alarm ? Is it not a jolt and folic! it ground ea l lte --..: tc. air sap. prehenfion ? Is not her increale of cumflance vehich we thotild view wit?rt ) he ci g .' a c" : diftrult, with the omit wakeful jealoufv, v . - •i i ,r i t t" molt attentive vigilance ; more particularly' 1 ',.. ' we cannot help obferving, that it i s (, ) 11„,,` v d leu 'i by a proportionate angmentatio n , o f a t iii nhit . to int nate our national I,:clinand r Idfli PI to find oia new and fruitful fources (4' , are 0 . .. J .uite. yet it may not be altogether the queftio n f or us nrec' L e ; to invefligate, whether the pow er of France be greater than than it was in the month of lo ne l a :I ) It is rather for ut to enquire and d etei m c '"ine, if p fible, whether the temper and the dilpofitlnf evinced by the Chief Conful, he tie lame - as s w e then remarked them, and whether nliey A . uo tint manifeft a fupeiior degree ri - r ?, ambition and a:ti mothy, than on any previous nccarion ? In . r & mind, Sir, his condo towards Switzerland m. aline betrays fuch unequivocal deporniration s of per fidy, and to glaring a lull of dominion, that I feel no difficulty in layinf, it effels a contiderable change in the relative ntnation in which the two countries were placed, at ti:e moment referred to, and adds to the indignation by which I was ani mated. lam not, however, &limns of Wii!o lg in the language of inveaive ; for my great %%lib is to appeal to the inernlible evidence of fans. L e t me, however, make a few remarks on the genaal queftion of peace or war. Ido not prefunue much 1 when I fay that I am as ftrongly earned i n. th e maintenance of peace as any man ; and I will'add, 1 1 that no man is more convinced than myfelf, that war is no remedy for the evils we have to deplore. —A fpirit of warfare, the indignation of chivalry, may no doubt be kindled in the breatl of this Country againtl the bale and defpotic treatment of the unfortunate Swifs : but that while fpirit, and that indignation, mat be confidered as a valuable pled&e of the noble and honourable feel. in sof the nation, yet arc we to confider as a cafe of War the circumtlinces by which they are ex cited ? I mutt then fay, if nothing has happened fince the conclufion of the Treaty of Amiens, that can prove a futEcient juilification for the al ternative, of War, that Peace Ihould, if poffible, be maintained firm and unalterable in all its rela tions. The effe,tas of War are, in every intlance, calamitous ; but however deplorable they may be, and folicitous as we ourfelves thould be for the prefervation of tranquillity, yet we thould be fortified to meet by wife and extenfive preparation, and by.ready and refolute refitlance, the fira aft of jai& or aggreflion that may be offered on Ike part of France. If that a& fhould unfortunately take place, why then, Sir, let us with every, juit fentiment of national dignity, and of honourable pride, enter into hottilittes, however ferious, how ever alarming, the confequences may prove. Upon this principle. I exprefsly (late, I titan give mr vote for a large Peace Ettabliffiment ; and I do it that Minillers may be enabled to place the country in a fituation adequate in vigour and refources to any danger with which it may be threatened. h is, Sir, my carpel defire, that my conflituents and the country lhould know my tenements ; for I am particularly anxious, that when I accede to a mea lure calculated to add to their burthens, they thould be well informed of the groundsupon which I give my vote. To the different Gentlemen, v:ho have Rated to the Houle their fentiments urn this important topic, I have liflencd with more than ufital attention; but I have been particularly attentive to an Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Banks?, 1 whore eloquence and relpeaability always claim a 1 ditlinguifhed rank. That Honourable Gentkreaa 1 declares, that his Majetty's Minitters fhun expla nation, with refpdt to the nature and extent . cf the dangers they apprehended. While he adnuts , that if they did give that explanation he fo much ‘ 1 defires, he (honld be ready to concur in the means of meeting them to any amount. This mode of ar guing appears to me rather ftrange and unaccount able : for he admits that lie doubts the exittence of ' the danger. Let me then all: him, what is the erplanatior. which he would require of them ? Does he with that Mir:niers Ihould produce the particular documents, or bring forward the precife intelligence upon which they think themfelves juftified in providing meafttres of defence and le ! curity ? Has not the general explanation, into I which they have entered, been fufficiently latisfac tory ? And arc not the dangers with which we ate menaced fenfible to every ear and eye ? Is not every underaanding that obler vcs, and e very heart f that feels, Rruck with the magnitude of them . The fingle queftion, then, for eilr confideration , is whether we fliould be prepared to repel them ?-- The Honourable Gentleman objeas to the pro poled eßablifliment of 130,000 men : becaufe DO jut' proportion can exit' beaten it arnl the militati eflablithment of France. If his argument be jail in this point of view, it would follow that we might as well reduce our force to too° men, or, indeed, make no provifion at all, fince all our e xertions can give no total equal to the military eftablifh ment of the French Republic. I perfatly agree, Sir, with thofe who recommend to Minifters,not to involve themfelves raffily in Continental aPtances.. They ihould not, it has been advanced, engage is them inconfiderately, and to prove this, Milan/ in former wars have been quoted ; yet they mig ht he found in abundance during the late war.. 1k As . 4? ' rtea it not notorious that the Islinitters who condo... that war pledged themfelves repeatedly to prof t e: cute it with every finew, faculty, and energy t 1 country could afford ? Yoe° certatum et corrore regnt. . 4 . Bnt had they redeemed the pledge that rose mail hadifounbl I Z si tti ci kad vO t t o heyaccomrli l t t licJw o 11 11 4 t ereforet W de ia • aisick **clog' to an argurnsnt, which had fidkn. dqatioutly circulated it was Weal frsios.sa, Wpm Member. early n the debate, (Mr. tack this moat,. bit WIMP tisat aWi • )• if or Snit! Inge to qope ie aaaa, fajleeiouk ui cord/Room °fits restehiti • W . -our cak, oa that pouted, 100 y. then another fulpteeftverfaot hAdi • • • • , V. • ~ T-fs - tie would sayer, the and perions of no infeerpe sea moo t * 4 "" ittlt-bilid- DO Odic Frena) CatttlaMsalk- .erli ly the pri Tt 711 to aT rki hi Al