Star. — London, England, 1815-06-13 00:00:00

was one which ought to-Ise on the ground-floor ? •• 0 yes; for if it was not so arranged, the public service will be impeded." It was asked, wit it ne cessary that the rown.in whit)) the coachmen's great cows were to be put should also be on the pound floor ? and 'a similar reply was given. He could not help thinking that some abominable job was intended. That habitations for individuals were to be included in-the new establishment, which ought not to be fur nished at the public expense. When it was seen that m Ist of the apartments in which the business oh the Office was to be transacted were intended to be on the ground-floor, he could not doubt that it WAS in con templation to build above these for purposes of a very different nature..-4---The Clause was agreed to. . The clauses respecting the clearance of the ground, the sale of the old materials, the altering or stopping up of sewers and drains, and the residue-ground to be left at the disposal of the Post Master General, were shortly discussed before they were carried. The clause authorizing a grant of £2 , 1.0,000 was ohjected to by Mr. H. SUMNER, who contended that a smaller grant would be sufficient for the present, as ensuing season, from the slow progress of the %trot ks, more than 440,000 could not be spent. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER admitted, that but a small sum was necessary for this year ; but though the whole grant was not immedi ately called for, it had been thought the most fair and manly course to bring tee whole charge Intone dtatel) under the view of Parliament. Mr, GORDON put it to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, if, under existing circumstances, it would be wise to commence the New Post Office this year? The Committee divided,when the numbers were— For the clause, 4.5; against it, 14: majority, SI. The other clauses- were agreed to, and after a short conversation on a clause proposed by Mr. H. Sum tree, but afterwards withdrawn, respecting the corn peusatioo to be given to individuals who were com p -lied to leave toeir houses, the House restfmed, and the Report was ordered to be receivedio-morrow. TRKATE WITH THE KING or THE :4ETHERLANDS. Toe House having resolved itself into a Committee on tliii T.e.ity, Lord CAS I'I.EREAGH, in rising pursuant-to the notice lie had given, desired to carry the feelings of the Kiuse back to that period at which the inde pe.idence of Holland was restored. At that auspi. cious monirent, he was sure but one sentiment per.' vaded the country, and nothing could have been less congenial with it than for Ministers to have exercised the rielits of war with respect to the Colonies of Hol land, after the deliverance of that country from the hands of the enemy. It would have been in opp,si tion to the feelings of the nation to have treated Hol land but as a gauntry with which it was our object to maintain the most friendly relations, and he (Lord Ca.tlereagh) much as he sh'iuld have lamented if an amicable arrangemeat mild not have been made by which England could maintain the Cape of Good Hope, which was so important to this country, from its connect s uin with our iertitories in the East; and relli'ltant as he should have been to have lost any op. portuoiry of placing so large a mass of British pro perty as was contained in the islands of Berbice. De- _ mum, and Essequibo, perpanently under the pro. tectiOtt of the Crown of England—much as he should have regretted such important cessions, still woied, he have been content to forego all the benefits of re, twining them, rather than have failed to act with friendly liberality towards Holland. It ought not to be disguised, that thrwlt France might have overrun Holland from the lust of conquest, that much of the misery which had fallen on that- unfor tunate country, had been inflicted on account c• the attachment it had cherished for England. This feel ing, so difficult to extinguish, has never ceased to manifest itself, and it was possible, that but for this, Holland might for a longer time have escaped the storms by which she was overwhelmed. If he (Lord Castlereagh) was right in supposing that from the period at winch we had the satisfaction of witnessing the restoration of Holland, there Was no disposition to exercise the rights of war harshly against her, be trusted the arrangement he had now to bring under the considetation of the Committee, would - be ap-• proved as consonant with the true policy of England, and as fair and lineral with respect to Holland.— There were three points to which he should now ad dress himself; first, the sum proposed to be given to Sweden, in consideration of the abandonment of her claims on the island of Guadaloupe. Second, The grant for the Artification of the Netherlands. And, thirdly, Tne advance 'to be made in favour of Russia on account of a loan raised in Holland. The arrange ments which had been made, and for which he was about to cad upon them to provide, it was proper to observe, had all been made independent of the pre st4t circumstances of Europe, and would all have been to be submitted to Pailiamenr, had ro new oc casiva call:al for their co operation with this country in a struggle against the -power of France. It would be recollected that the island of Guadeloupe had been ceded toiisveden by this country. Our right to it had been tratiferred to Sweden, though do positive guaraater had been ernered into that she should con tinue to possess it after war should be at an end. We, however, were ceitainly bound to support her preten sions as our Ally; when peace should be concluded so far as eircuinsames would permit. When the Swe dish treaty was di.cussed and sanctioned by that House, there was no point perhaps that was more particubasly looked to than this, on account of the embarrassments it was feared it might throw in the way of a future accommodation .with France, and could it then have been foreseen that this diificulty might be obviated by a pecuniary arrangement, it would have lessened the number of the objections urged against that treaty. When peace was about to be made with France, then no longer an adverse power, he could not but feel that having lost St. Do mingo, unless she regained Guadaloupe she would want that existence in the West Indies, which he titought she ought at all times to possess; for be was of 'opinion that the interests of her commerce made it necessary thAt,she should be .of importance in that quarter, and this he reg tided as essential to the price, of the world. Under thew circurfistances then wouldit be seen, that had nut Sweden lent herself to the atradgeonent nece.aary to get over this diffi. cult', there would have been much embarrassment in concluding the fate pe ice; From this statement 4 would be seen, that the vote which would be pro p se in tavola . of Swede r, did not , at all arise, out . i f ; I • • • • I • of the present eircurostencea4l Europe, but out of the arrangement which had been though; edeisable 'at a period of the late war, when the stateot things was not so favourable to the Allies, as they were at a subsequent time, andeilien but for the arrange meht referred to, it mirht have been impossible tor Rusth; to make the efforts she has made, and which had led to the Treaty of Paris. The fortifications.in the Netherlands would call for no advance from this country the present year. The.systtrn of fortifying the Netherlands hc considered wise, even as a mea sure of economy. It was necessary to preserve Hol land •ind her Navy independgnt of France, and this could only be secured by milling the Netherlands strong as a military position. This would save the country the excessive expence of repelling the at tempts which France might be induced to make at any future period. With this view of the subject, be conceived this country to be highly interested in rot tifying the Netherlands in the manner proposed, the expence of which would gradually be met. With respect to the loan raised in Holland, for service of Russia, which we were called on to pay, he really was not in possession of the information necessary to enable him to say whether or not the anecdote re counted by the Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Whit bread) of its origin, was correct. If the loan were raised for the purpose which had been stated, he (Lord Castlereagh) would join with him (bir.White bread) to reprobate its object—but the propriety or impropriety of the present arrangement could natsiw deteralined by the policy which caused the loan tabs railed. The fact was, such a debt was in existence, and the question for the Committee to consider was, whether Russia was entitled to such assistance, and whether Holland had done any thing to entitle her to expect that England would give it ? He then pro ceeded to set forth the claims which Russia bad to the gratitude of Holland, and the necessity of those charges being cheerfully borne by a country deli vered from foreign oppression, which were attendant on the operations of those who were the moans of re storing its liberty. If nations placed in this situation failed gratefully to take upon themselves such ,ex peaces, the effect would be fatal to the cause of freedom, as those great Powers'who had the msan, of procuring their emancipation, would be taught to pursue a more insulated line of policy—(Hain) On the advance of the Allies to the Rhine. the So vereigns of the smaller States (twenty-two in number) had,agreed in aid of the exertions of the three great Powers, not only to furnish a certain quota of men for the future operations of the campaign, but they also agreed each to contribute a sum of money equal to one year's revenue of their respective demi nions. It was thought Holland ought to do as much as these, and indeed something. more, as before her military exertions had not been so great. With the wishes of the Allies the King of the li-therlands had complied. The Noble Lord at considerable length went on to prove how equitable the claim was which he felt it his duty to prefer on the part of the King of the Netherlands. The arrangement made weuid be as beneficial to him as it was consonant to the policy of this country. It went to give the greatest power in Europe an interest in the eonservatrot of the independence of Holland ; and however reedy that Power might have proved itself to make great sacrifices for the public good, be considered It no misfortune fir the politics of Europe, that interest should in this instance unite with duty. It was said that Russia might again act, as from circumstances she had totted Iterselt compelled to do in the last war; and, in that case, her payments to Holland would cease. It that period should arrive, our pay ments also would be suspended, as they would if by any circumstance the Netherlands should he separated from Holland. The state of things which had celled upon us to take this charge upon ourselves, had given , us an opportunity of fairly, and without the appear ance of illiberality, proposing to Holland the cession of her colonies to England. He had much satisfac. tion in stating, that our conduct in this respect had been justly appreciated on the part of Holland. She had viewed it as a fair proposition made by a friendly Power, and not considered it the demand of a nation who, having obtained possession of her colonies in time of war, refused to relinquish them on the return of peace. The colonies obtaified by the arrangement entered into with Holland, were of great iropermace 'to this country, not only on account of their mann tion with our eastern possession:, but on account of the situation in which they placed us with respect to South America, by which a constant supply of cot ton was secured, which would prove an important advantage to the manufacturers of one °four staple commodities. The King of the Netherlands bad certainly of himself takeh measures for putting an end to the Slave Trade ; but the situation of sonse of the ceded colimies presented such facilities to smuggling of slaves into them, that it could hardly be hoped the evil would be effectually remedied but by placing them under the cam of this country.—. The arrangement made had not been decided upon :tom an inordinate wish to extend our colonial pos sessions, but to promote the interesur of our mans factures, and to give greater effect.to that system of policy which the country had so anxiously , at belt. With respect to the payments, he had to state, th e first to be made on account of th e l oen to RINI* would be about the middle of the year 1816, and its amount, including interest and Sinking Fund, would be ii 136,000. This,, as he had before stated, would only be continued so long as the Netherlands were separated from France, and would cease it the Orange family should unfortunately be displaced.— Nothing would be required at present for the fortili• Cations Of the Netherlands, but ip a Committee of Supply, he should move the grant of £1,000,000 to Sweden, as compensation to her for giros up Gua deloupe. He concluded by moving, 46 That atom vision be made to pay off the interest of the capital sum of 25,000,0000 t forMs (Dutch currency) brow part of a loan raised in Holland for the sere* of Russia," Mr. WHITBREAD, in reference to what had been said by the Noble Lord of the agreement made. by the Sovereigns of the smaller States to AdVinCe aid of the common cause, Ai sum equal to one year's revenue of their_ respective dominions, desired to know if any payments had in point of fact been made ? The deht, owed by Rthsia to Holland, he believed, had been contracted by the grandmother of the Emperor Aleaander, .and he believed totr a nom of years no part of she princiril or int erest 114 been paid. • Lord CASTLE'REACH Mire. some tssuei to hive been made by the minor Stites, of exchequer bills, or something of that sort, in consequence of the arrangement to which they were parties. The Em peror of Russia had indeed made the. discharge of the debt due to Holland i point of humour. but the payments had been suspended while Holland was j essentially French. Mr. WHITBREAD considered the explanation of the Noble Lord to be but a poor excuse for the conduct of the Emperor of Russia. The country, he thought, would be Pule disposed to pay a 10415 which had been contracted to pot a Russian arma ment in motion against the independence of Poland, after supporting with their money the opposite side of the question on a former occasion. He thought it very desirable that we should know whether or not we were called upon to pay the price of that iniquity which we thought it our duty to oppose before ? Not. withstanding the arrangement %%hie!) had been made, lie considered the 'situation of the ceeditors of itussia in Holland, to be but indifferent alter all. Lord CASTLEREAGH explained. Mr. TIERNEY admired nothing so much as the ingenuity of the Noble Lord. It was only when he got to the end of his speech, that . those who listened to him could tell what was going on. He spoke much of the amicable' arrangement which had taken place, but spoke as if it was attended with no incon venience, as if it was to throw no burden on the peo ple, and after all it same out that 88,000,000 was to be sent from the country. Lord CASTLIMIAGH and the CHANCULOR of the Excummaa controverted this statement, and shewed the Right Hon. Gentleman that in no way could it be proved that the charges . referred to would exceed £5,000,000. Mr. TIERNEY, admitting them to be but £5,000,000, would venture to say that no body who heard the speech of the Noble Lord could have thought from his manner that• be was about to: pro. pose a vote of al?5,00:4000. It was worthy of remark that these conventions which had been concluded some time, wets net broaght .forward till the middle of June. He thought it must appear to the House, that there had been a wish for. concealment on the part of the Noble Lord. On private information he had ventured three months ago to ask the Noble Lord a question connected with the subj, ct of them. The answer was ambiguous—it was, in substance., that the Members of the Opposition were at their old tricks— they were asking many impertinent questions, to which he should nut then reply. but a time would come when he would satisfactorily answer aIL It should seem that this time was now arrived, but he thought be had a right to ask, why it did not come before ? He thought there was something very im proper, and (not to use the word in an offensive sense), , suspicious in such coucealment. Why these papers l had not been brought forward before, he thought the Noble Lord ought to explain before he left the House that night. Those arrangements might he adv.inte. geous to Europe, but why should this country have to pay ? Because Sweden had consented' to accept a compensation of 95,000,010 of francs for Goads. loupe; his Britannic Majesty, as a friend and Ally, was pleasea to take the payment of that sum upon himself. But wherefore should he'do it, this is what he wished to know ? Holland gained the whole of the , Austrian Netherlands, and ought to consider the es-:i change of four colonies, for that large portion of European territory, a very good bargain. The Noble Lord's speech, a few nights, since had excited much astonishment in Holland, and he had received a letter from an honest Dutchman, who said, “ I have endea voured to understand Lord Castlereagh's speech, and have not been able to snake out one word of. it."-- (Idniskter.)—The finances of Holland were no; in so dilapidated a state as to require such an interference on our part. By her union with France. she bad got rid of two-thirds of her debt . . The Chancellor of the Exchequer might smile at this method of disposing of a national debt; but if he went on much longer, he would be compelled to -have recourse to similar means.—(Hear.—.The Noble Lord had no right to pledge the country to pay one million without the knowledge of Parliament. From his speech it would appear that the price of the colonies ceded to Eng. land was only &ISOM% whilst it was, in 1 act,five millions, which tar surpassed their value. What was the use of our retaining the Cape of Good Hope, when we were in. possession of the .Mauritius ? Hol. land, at the time she gave, us up the sovereignty of that colony, preserved all its uses to herself, and only left us the expense of its possession. It was the same with the three other colonies, all persons residang In them were to have the right of trading as before, with the Dutch dominions in Europe ; so that they might, if they pleased, refuse to convey their merchandise to this - country. It made therefore no difference to us whether those islands were in the bands of the Dutch or in ours. The last thing that ought to have been done, ought to have been bargaining for colonies in the West In dies. But he was convinced there remained a story to be told of some seam arrangement which would creep out in another twelvenseash. It had been said that we had made a good ba rga i n , w h en f or fi ve millions, which the loss on the exchange would re duce to four, we had obtained 600,000 men from the' Allies. But there was perhaps another colonial ar rangement of five millions behind. The'Noble Lord said that the country would only have 8136,000 to pay; but this expenditure was to go on until the two millions should be liquidated, which would not take a shorter period than 33 years. Could not Holland .have endured such a debt, or if unable to pay the two millions at once, she could not be emharr.4-sed with the arrangement that had been made, and c.,idd have easily met the yearly instalmeeti of 4136,00 u. This hs v Nwa e eeci r ) y dbs hl e a ot r r aLhu, would that odt n rn g dtot e ,atis m kl epei e nil power hwcytoeeeshewedobtained nowee th daoHs a ua t r: t turno h is e vea r ei, e ; i,:rifiyt was vtr n i t o h n l A c i e i s si thety y h . fi e_ ve l ;m d e i a l t r l a i . o j i t r n i s y , the e e i wi sl :l n ie d d o t f o ßa kn o o e w a, b w ow hic w h e w c e alu ce e' de i d mo to P° th sse e I. Dutch ? When the Noble. Lord wanted live ni awn 01 Wiens to tortify t H ik o i d r ilg rl o a lu n i trad, herself, he h . ought iwaseh oth ctor otherwis e skew tse h ils r e m ain nplt pinchli 01. redtll alen the d P it; people.— Lie l e a . b ..... 7e i tkinhe:lll:shltodulo t lpd M plia a yk n ef ! ort it et° : M o l u sifi n nc try tirP c sn o s u no ld er n P ot liyalinu he loi a gu r th s Vi ll i c tjth i eZp!104018. • When the finances were completely **Wile le poll 011; of toe's pocket papers co.oceitle4 for title year, and ask dee million% required tafl th peiwers of the Noble Lord's countenance to face it.-. At this time of the Session the House was entirely at his mercy. Gentlemen were newssarily engaged -the country, and could not attend. After. such a borions Session, he did not comNain of their absence, but of the Noirle Lord, fur delaying matters of this importance until he knew there could be no opportu. pity for their being effectually discussed. • Lord CASTLEREAGH stated that the reason why the 'Treaties had not been brought down before Win g that they were not then in a pritper shape ; 111, 1 were, even now, imperfect. The Convention betweei, the Emperor of Russia and the King of the Nether. lands, which alone gave them validity, had not been concluded until the 19th of May litst. fir main. tamed, that to lordly the places in Belgium was n ot a Dutch object merely, but one which interested al'. Europe, and this country in particular, and that Holland should not be allowed to exhaust her re. sources by incurring erpences beyond her strengd, If England alone had conquered the Netherland,. then it would have been fair and just iu tier to ex change them for the Dutch Colonies, a:.d p A y n ., other price. But that was not the C.4S: ; 01 , 1 had n , right to dispose of Belgium as she ple4sed, as it iv.: as much in the power of the A Ili-d Sovereigns as hers. With respect to the island of Binc he C(.111 not charge his memory with the manner in which w had acquired it—(laissAter)—hut he had Tic iloulit vu fid e to its possession would be timid a good one. .14r. WALLACE stated, that the R.ijala of Hanc having murdered all the Dute!i, and declared 114 1 • self independent of them, %%bids lie was not befut , had afterwards been obliged to fly. His brutlscr ha.i then been made Sovereign, and had ceded his righ.. to us. Mr. FORBES believed that the Rajah of Lau had been forced to enter into an improvident conuar tor tin by the Dutch Government. Tha; he ha. , assisted us in taking Java, but that when after auccess of that enterprise, oar Commander bad i sisted on his fulfilling the contract entered into ' the Dutch Government, he had resisted it. Ti.. consequence was,lhat we had sent an army agaiv him, and taken possession of his territories. Th •, he was convinced, was the original cause of his losit Banco. As to his being deposed afterwards, he cou say nothing. Mr. WHITBREAD remarked, that according , the last Speaker, the Rajah of Banca had assist, the English in the conquest of Java* Mr. WALLACE denied that fact, He had nee moved until after the English had taken possession Java, whist he had seized that occasion to murder a. the Dutch inhabitants in his dominions. Mr. BANKES disapproved of our entering into new expenditure of flue millions within a few days raising the largest loan ever known in this country... Such a waste of the public money was both imprc per and unnecessary, • Lord CASTLEItEAGH complained that tl: , Hon. Member applied his large mind only to a con. fined part of the question. He did ni t contemplatt the result if we had left the Powers of Europe behind as. There never wis so much done with so little er• pense as during the last two years. Sir J. NEWPOR l' contended that Holland should go to the expense of fortifying the places in Belgium. Afterhaving spent our money in strengtlieniil barrier for the Dutch, we might find that we bac only formed it fur cur enemy. The transaction re specting Banc* seemed to be followir. 7 4 use the nii serable juggle adopted by us against the N.cmt Powers of India. Oor conduct lOW Al cis the Rajah c. that island appeared to be disgraceful and anominable Mr. BARING contended, that not the slightes. foundation had yet been laid for the proposition c the Noble Lord ; he conceived that it IV as quite ore gular for 'Parliament to be called upon to l ivens sanction to a Treaty before it had been ratified by the foreign powec with whom it was Made. There seemed neither reason or justice in calliag upon Greg Britain to make good this debt to Holland ; and probability appeared to be, that while the Sovereips q Lo na r b a by t ti o g re at st V or i e en h n a a r f tn ov on pi y :c h es ad of N " o r b e l e s money of Great Britain, without reterence either to the amount, or the benefits it was Wryly to produce. thrown in :n i l It would doubtless be replied, that the value of the Dutch colonies was great, but the truth was, that Oil island of Guadaloupe alone was worth Infinitely more than 411 the Dutch possessions in the West Indies united.—(Leril Cast/tree:A ,Mani hie Igad.)-* If the Noble Lord ventured to contradict this asser• lion, it would only shew that he really knew nothing about the subject. He doubted even whether it woul4 have been politic tai have accepted these colonies from the Dutch. The Cape of Good Hope could be of no use to us, the Mauritius and St. Helena being in our hands • the only object which was desirable was o keep the eape of Good Hope out of hostile hands, but in the hands of the Dutch, our Allies, it would be See ; so that the only question was, who should bear the expense ? There was one reason, to be sure, why Ike should buy it—which was, that we had a oVertior there, in the receipt of £lO,OOO a year (hear); Lc twice which sum the thrifty Dutchman would WO supported the whole colony. lu the colonies also the Dutch were to have a joint trade with ourselves ; !at' though this benefit was to be limited to Dutch pro. prieturs, it would not be very easy to prevent thoa persons from exporting goods which mere not the produce of their own estates. It was plain that we tot purchase of the colonies had been the. real, but tot the business was transacted upon other principle:: which the Noble Lord had styled " grand view): and that, in tact, the States at Vienna being di.satb• tied with their shares of spoil, Great Britaiii nal stepped in to supply all deticiencies with her golf ; As to the sum to be paid to Sweden, the Treaty an•" the statement of the Noble Lord were at variance The Treaty spoke of '24 millions of florins, wltith would amount to about a million and one-Ulird ; the Noble Lord said it wax but one million sterlinz.. Mt. B. BATHURST decided the propriety oi giving a million to Sweden, whether it was Or " 3 island'or a mere question tit money, AS other% I,e A ll iniporiant branch of the coalition might have ti:ru paralysed, or turned from a friend and Any into an open or secret enemy. The incerest IlAti 1 3 Molt country would justify detenonig it even at our own soie anomie, and Were was no other way of Jr. ending it so chseap as by fortifying it; because it FrafiCe reconquered it, we should have a 101 IX war a to regain it. Ile therefore did not mink the 14144