Star. — London, England, 1805-07-09 00:00:00

PARLIAMENTAAr PROCEEDINGS, HOUSE. OF LORDS, MONDAY, JULY 8. Counfel were finally heard relative to the Scots Appeal, Camp. bell Witt litLeri v. Ml Nair and Allan. After which the farthir confideration of the cafe was poßponed till Wednefday Judgm• nt on the Irifh Appeal Caufe, Redington v. Redington, was poltponed till to marrow. The Bills upon the Table were forwarded in their feveral Rages. Among there the Sugar Duties Drawback Bill, the frith Spirits Wareboufittg, the P 1 tte Glafs Duty, the Irilll Affeired Taxes Re venue Regulation, t►e Southern Whale Fiftirry,and the Hop Duty Reduction Bills.fcverally paired through Committees of the whole Ilioufe—Lord Walfingham in the Chair. The Earl of BLSIiOROUGH moved the third reading of the Min:Hon Inclolure Bill, upon which,purfuant to a former order of their Lortillfps, Counfel were called to the Bar, Mr. Plomer, In ropporr of a Petition againß the Bill, and Mr. Adam, on In tuit of the meafure. After the Learned Counfel bad concluded— The LORD CHANCELLOR made a few obrenrations upon the eireet of what had been urged at the Bar, and thought the oh jedion, refpufhtng the Vicar's rights to the tythes of adjuftment, was worthy of confederation. After a few words from the Earl of CAR YSFORT, the third reading of the Bill was poltponed till to morrow. DUK! OF ATHOL% ANNUITY. The Earl of WESTMORLAND moved the order of the Day for the Amid reading of the tile of Man Bill—Some mifunderitanding arofe refpeftiog the regularity of the Motion, and a converfation followed on the point of order, during which Lord ELIANISO ROUGH infifted flrongly on the indecency and injuttice of hurrying forward this meafure without giving the Houle the means of judging of the fairnefs of the claim. Some of the papers on the table were not printed, and he would afk if it was proper that one Noble Lord Mould look over the (boulders of another, to endeavour to get through the perufal of the un printed papers, while they were debating the fubjeft ? He befought the houfe to ad with more regard to their charafter ; and concluded by moving, That certain papers on the table, relative to the fubjea, be printed.—Ordered. The Earl of WESTMORLAND role, and went into a minute detail of the hiliory of that ifland for upwards of 400 years back, and proved, from vari ous references to hiflory,aels and grants of fovereign. ty, that, in the true legal import of the word, the :medlars of the Duke of Athol were Kings of that ifland. He expl4ined the circumflances of the ne gotiation during the treafureriltip of Mr. Grenville, for the purchate of it, and contended that the fate was entirely compulfory on the part of the anceflors of the Noble Duke. The revenues there upwards of 70001. per ann. and the only confideration which was given for it was moool. and an annuity of zoool. No ene would maintain that this was a fair price for a rental of fuels a value. Parliament had purchafed the heritable jurifdiaions of Scotland, than which there existed nothing more iniquitous, for t 60,0001. • and an individual (a Mr. Gordon) who had tome how or other obtained a licence for a certain term, to diflil fpirits without paying the customary duties, ob tained 24,0001. for his privilege, although it had on. ly (even years to run. With fuch precedents before them, he did not fuppore that any Noble Lord would be inclined to contelt either the plaice or neceffity of the claim preferred by the Noble Duke. He thought that if ever the liberality and juflice of Parliament was fairly called upon, it was upon this occafion.— He would therefore move that the Bill be read a fe cund time. Lord ELLENBOROUGH role to exprefs his als folute difapprobation of the parliamentary proceed. ings on the claims of the Noble Duke. He was fur prifed at the appeal matte by the Noble Earl. For himfelf, he would anfwer as a man and a gentleman, that he knew nothing of the proceedings in the Privy Council on the fuhjelt, after a certain period, when 1 one of the Reports then on their Lordthips' table was made by the Board. He would anfwer to the fame effeet fur another Law Officer (the Mailer of the Rolls), of as great integrity, and high legal knowledge and talent as atop man. Neither that dif tinguiflied charaCter, nor himfelf, were fummoned to the Privy Council on the fubjeCt, after the period be had alluded to ; and be would declare, he was as ignorant of the motives they proceeded on as the molt pet fed firanger could be. It had been thought by Tome indecent to call this claim a job ; he would fay, if the Houle will proceed with the precipitancy which feems to be threatened, they would commit as grofs and difgraceful an aft as ever marked the wort of times. A moment before he is called upon to con fent to that rage of the Bill in which it is his duty to oppofe the principle, if he thinks that wrong, a huge folio volume is put into his hands, fo reeking from the prefs, that it is with danger to his health he can hold it to read it through. Could this condo& be reconciled to the charaCter their Lordfhips with to poffef. ? Would their Lordthips go to their refpcc tive homes, and meet the people, with fuch a recent (lain upon them ? He would conjure the Houfe to preferve all that is left of parliamentary character. He would intreat them to reflect before they ruched into this enormoufly har(h condu4. He would pro. pole, as a meafure that might be. given to candour, that a little delay Ihould be granted, that he might acquire Come knowledge of thofe documents on which the Government have proceeded. He would fit down, to give opportunity fora concellion which he eagerly defired for the fake of the country, and of their Lordfhips' reputation. His Lordfhip then fat down for a (hod time ; and no Lord riling to no tice that propofition, he rofe again, and faid—He muft then uncle' Rand that they were to go on at any price or hazard. The Noble Friends of the Bill de- pended on their number, and on the weaknefs of hit: oppofr ion. He would, however, difcharge his duty, and declare his opinion on the Bill itfelf. It contain ed, and was founded on propofitions untrue in fad and in law. The very find was, that the former right of the Duke of Athol in the Isle of Man, was a fo yereignty. It was a lordthip, it was a dominion— but. no lawyer, no hiftorian, had ever named it a fo vereignty. Every writer has laid down, that na counts y conftitutes a fovereignry, which does not le gitlate for itfelf, and exercife all fupreme authority Within itfelf. The privileges and righ ts of the Duke in the We of Man, we r e held by• ty rjeantry.— t fe Certain rights of dominion may be held by fubjeas, by grants on certain tenures. It might as well be argued that the Arciliithop of York holds the fupre imacy ~ his church, becaufe he holds certain powers, is to call the power of the Ilk of Man a fovereignry. Yet the Bill three times repeats this untrue affertion, " like a tall hilly-." He would not flnifh the fentence in its own words ; but every man Law the epithet that would apply t o . • . • . the eondus of the Bill. Much firers is laid on the circumflance, that AEI: of Parliament have no force in the He of Man, unlefs fpecially mentioned.-- But the confequence of fovereignty in the ;kind does not follow from that. An ill old may be fubjea and be a dependency, without bring included by the or dinary words of an aft, legiflating only for that which is within the immediate realm. It was no thing but puerility and abfurdity, to conflrue a/is as they have been done in behalf of this claim (a cry of hear ! hear !) He wilhed to be, and he believed, he generally was orderly in his expreffions. But he could find no words but fuch as he had ufed, to con• vey the contempt he had for the rcafoning ufed to induce their Lordfhips to give away a large Cum of the people's money. Every one of their Lordthips knew how fcvercly the taxes lay on the people, yet how cheerfully they were borne • and he could not, las a man, throw away the right of examining into the propriety, the rearms fur granting the fum now demanded. The Government, in making the bar ' gain for the public, with the Noble Duke's predecef for, had not aEled as the Houfe is now called on to a& The perfon then at the head of it .(Mr. G. Grenville) was not of a difpotition to do fo ; and he wifhed to GOD that Minifler could have tranfmitted, with his robe of cffice. to his fucceffors, Come of that integrity, that care of the public porfe, that good faith with the people, which ditlinguifhed him, and which Paved the revenues of the State from depreda tion. But though that tlatefman guarded the public purfe, he did no wrong to the individual interelled j in this cafe. It was falfely afferted, either that the Noble Duke's anceflor was compelled to alienate his rights in the Ifle of Man, or that he did not receive full compcnfation. He knew the uhinsittaux that the Mi• niller would give before he went to treat, and he only negotiated to arrive at that. By what means he came at that knowledge, fo important to him, might be imagined ; but he would not then attempt to de 'elope them. The fait, however, was, that the No ble Poffeffor of the rights fo difplayed as they have been, might have declined further treaty after he had known the uhintatune of the Minifter: But the cafe was the ma reverie of what is Rated. The furplus revenue of the Duke's rights in the ifland, af ter paying all expences, did not exceed eight hun dred pounds per annum. Let the whole account be Rated between the Noble Duke's family and the public, if the Houle mull be ;mired on in this courfe, and then it would be found that the bargain has been a clear advantage to the family of a 00,0001.— The only advantage to the public was the checking of the contraband trade. He would acknowledge the advantage in their name. But he would elk, is not the family well paid by the public, for a right of (mall value to the family, though of benefit to the public, perhaps adequate to the purchafe money ? He again befought their Lordthips to purfue this harfh meafure no farther. He would even bated) the friends of the bill not to turn their Lordfhips afide from doing their Parliamentary duty in the grofs manner now attempted. The people of this country have a moral fettle, and can 'firongly feel an indecent injury. Their Lorclfhips could not go to their homes with the exultation of foreign triumphs ; they had added nothing to the ancient name and glo ry of the country ; he blamed no one for this ,• per haps no prudence could have prevented it ; but it was an awful Rate, and they ought to inquire how they would meet it. They might, at haft, return with unviolated faith, with tome Itatefmen like quail ties, and with the poor and humble praife of being honell men. They would not emulate failorr,.who, inßead of conveying the fah through a norm, bleize on the occafion to break open and rob the cheß. If the country had the faculty of renovating under the beaks of vultures, that would be fomething ; but let them be convinced that it is fo, before they give up their fatted truth Perhaps the vengeance of HIIAVEN hangs overthe nation ! Let their Lordships prepare to meet it with fume mitigation of the evil, by returning to the priSice of honeft times ! This, if it do not avert misfortune, will enable them to bear It with fortitude. Lord H A RRONBY replied to the left fpeaker.— He contended, that the documents on the table Clear ly eftablifhed the claim of the Duke of Athol to ad ditional compenfation. It was clear from the Rate , aunts of the revenues of the Wand, that fince the original agreement, a very confiderable augmen tation had taken place, and as the public enjoyed the advantages of that augmentation, it was but common jultice that the Duke Ihould obtain tome fhare of the increafe of the refources of his hereditary poffelEons. It was not, he afferted, in the view of the Ministry which formed the agreement, that it should by final. It w;„s carried to a certain extent, leaving the queftion of any future addition to be determined by the circurnftances of the cafe, when fuch an ad dition was required. To refufe then now to linen to the Duke's claims when the ineveafe was univerfally admitted, was what would be unfair betwixt indivi duals, and Rill more fo betwixt an individual and a powerful Government. He infifted alfo, that too great a degree of precipitation was ufed in framing the driginal agreement, and maintained that it would be extraordinary indeed that no other opportunity fhould be given for reviling an aft of the Legiflature. What was anted, was what not only generofity but common juaice required ; and h; was confident that however anxious the public were for mconomy in the expenditure of the national treafures, they would not exprefs - any diffatisfation at an aft which merely gave an individual a certain compenfation for advantages of which they were in polfeflion. He, on this con. vision, gave his hearty :drew to the bill. The Marquis of BUCKINGHAM oppofed the meafure flrenuonfly, as retying on no Parliamentary Brounds. Their Lordlhips were called on to pals a ill of this defcription without even a fhadow of the evidence of itt juftice or necelEty. There was indeed a voluminous body of evidence and information on the table, but with a degree of precipitation almeft unexampled, the Bill was attempted to be hurried through Parliament, and not even the flightefi oppor tunity was to be given to determine what inference that evidence and mf6tmation fairly warranted. He conjured their Lordfhips, therefore, from regard to the dignity and the continency of their proceedings, from refpea to the principles of the Connitution, from a with to preferve the confidence of the people, not to fuller fuch a grant of the puhlic money to take place at fo late a period of the Idiots, without all means of forming a correct idea whether the grant was what Office to anindividoal required. J eltmcy in the diftribution of the public money, at all times requilite, was rendered peculiarly nece ary from the circumaances in which the country w.ts p laced. if ff the public were willing to make great lacy itices, they at leaft had a right to expel that what wax cheer fully granted, lhould be n?plied Nth- to porpofes of 1 national advantages. He imprcffed the:. Lord- ! (hips this confideration, that a very unfavourable im preffion would be made, when it went abroad to the public, that a grant of the public money was made,: independent of all proof of its neceffity, nay, even I when the information moved for was hardly laid on' their Leircifhips' table, and could not poffihly be ex amined. He Purely needed not to fay any thing ! fironger than this, that feveral of the molt important papers had not been two hours produced, and if the fame precipitation was perfevered in, the Bill-might have received the ,Royal Affent before their Lord fhips could have perufed the cne half of the docu ments intended to prove its juftice or neceffity. Hav ing placed this idea in a very forcible light, the No. ble Marquis proceeded to vindicate tbe chareter of the perfon at the head of affairs, when the _original agreement with the Duke of Athol took place. He repelled all the attacks made againft the proceedings of one whole memory was naturally-fn dear to his heart, and denied that he ever exhibited, in any part of tie tranfation, either violence or precipitation. Nearly two years, on the contrary, had been employ ed in invelligations into the fubjeit previous to the agreement with the family of thei Noble Duke whore claims were now Co ftrongly urged, then held to be perfedly fatisfetoey. This the Noble Marquis con firmed, by reference to papers on the TahlT . , and others to which he had opportunities oraccefs, which their Lordthips in general did not poffe(s. As he was convinced that the original compenfation was regard ed as final at the time, fo was he equally convinced, that no cafe for further confirmation bad been ebb hiked. The increafe of revenue was no aiguinent for the palling of the Bill. If loch arguments were admitted there was an end to all agreements, either 1 betwixt individuals, or betwixt individuals strut the Government of the country. He concluded by decla ring that he Ihould vote againft the Bill, as fandion ing a very unwarrantable application of the public money. The Earl cf CARLISLE defended the Bill, and argued that the evidence of its neceffity, derived from the papers obtained from the other Houk of Parlia ment, afforded proofs of the jußice of the Noble Duke's claims. He drewaa didinetion alto betwixt the ftrietnefs of the claim of an individual, and of the claims of a private individual refpeeting a contra& with a powerful Government, and contended, that if in ftriet Office the claim could not be futtained, it ought to be looked to with feelings of magnanimous liberality. Lord SIDMOUTH.--u I Should conceive that I violated my duty as a Member of this Houle, and as a Member of the Britifh Community, if I did not fo lemnly proteft againft the paffing of the prefent bill. The Noble Earl (Lord Weltmorland) has flatted that we Mutt not fuppofe that the other Houfe was idle, or that they neglelted to coned fufficient evidence, and to weigh it accurately before they came to their refolution of palling the Bill. Does the Noble Lord imagine that this is a thing which Gould be taken for' granted in this Houle ? 1 am fore, that when I en tered this Houfe, I brought with me every prejudice in favour of the privileges of that Houle, and I re. fpet them as highly as any Noble Lord, but at the fame time I know what is due to the colleted wif dom of Parliament, and what is due to this Houfe, too well to take it for granted that every thing mull be right which is done in the other Houle of Par. liament, and on that account to decline delivering the decided opinion which I have formed upon the rub jeet. It appeared, however, from the totes of • the dther Houle, that they had (pent above three months in the confideration of the fubjeet—that they have painfully colleted and examined the very voluminous eridonce on the fubjet, which evi dence has not been lying on the Table of your Lord fhips as many days as it was months under the con fideration of the other Houle. This Houle has al ready admitted the neceffity of printing the evi dence, and yet if the Bill ' is to be paled with the precipitation that is to be 'feared, the Royal Mint will be given to it even before it will have been porfible to have an order for printing the evidence carried into execution. I do not complain per(onalty of wanting evidence : when I had the tumour of a place in His Majefly's Coimcils, aria the claith was then brought forward, I had fufficient evidence to'cle termine me to refill it, and to give no fort of encou• ragement to the expetat ons of the Noble Duke. When a memorial was prefented in t Boa fromihe Duke of ' Athol to his Majefty for his Royal Content and re commendation to Parliament, the Memorial was re. fared to the Lords of the Privy Council, and by them to the Attorney and Solicitor Generals for their 'opinion, whether the eompenfation which had been given was or was not adequate? The opinion was, that there was nothing which could lead them to fuppofe that it was inadequate. In confeqUence of this opinion of 'the Law Officers and the Report agreed to unanimonfly by the Privy Council, his Mijelly re futed his content, and the bufinefs was dropped for a time. Sometime after the Duke prefented another Memorial, ' Rating fome new circumflances. This Memorial was alto referred to the Privy Council, who girve a favetutable report, and Rated the compenfa tion to have been inadequate. Upon this Deport the Royal Content was given, and the Bill introduced into Parliament. But even the Royal Content being given, does not in the leaff preclude Parliament from examining the grounds upon which it was obtained, and the propriety of thenteafure itfelf. The fir Ile upon which the compenfation was estimated was the 1 produce of the imports on the internal confumption of the ifland and the fuppofed valueof the fovereignte, The afloat income derived from the Ifle of Man was rated at thirty years purchafe. and that left near 45.0001. out of the 79,0001. as the price paid for un profitable Sinecures and Royalties. 'When I fay un profitable, -I do not mean to depreciate the value of thole honours and dignities, bUt as they produced no income, I think it cannot be raid that 45,0001. was an inadequate turn to be given as a compenlati.m for them. If the revenues of the ifland have increafed confiderably fence that time, the increafe mull be at tributed in a great meafure to the new fyllem that I...st's introduced after the purchafe had been complet ed. The fuppreffion of the contraband trade, and the gement and high bounties given to t h e reve nue of the island, hut what contributed m•• to t fi r 'h e c a r t it: e s ti o en f i t t l r : itlanti, had inereafed confiderably raife the revenues was the new duties which hall jtC/1 laid on the various articles of confumtrion. Th e imposition of new duties was a power which the State poffafed for public purpofes, bat which it by n „ • means appears that the family of Athol potf e ad f„ r hueeiw private emolument. Whatever the reit . have been increafed by the laying or, lit does not follow tha t it is an im p rovemen t; and additional nut yntaxes, is certainly an augmentation, bu t t set afore, when the claim is let up on account tithe r•on3 wr moil certainly Randhai caufe this imp rove . ment proceeds. Every improved !late a consider n.,c p e r ff o a vreyf ;he revenues of the Ifland, it i s . upon its own merits, and tint efoi e when an appe a l •i; made to the generofity anti /iYeralit- of four Lord. although I am fare that whas jrliteral end generous will find a powerful advocate in your i- f) rd• brealls, yet we will have to confider not merela lhe qualities of mercy and liberality, but th e c i s. cumftances of 'the appeal which is made to us, an d when it is an application for public money, we fhpuld, above all things, inquire whether the claim is founded upon jultice. If this bargain is to be let atide for want of compenfation, a Nable Duke who fold to Government his claims to certain duties ou vials, might ncr.v demand a farther price for what he fold. Another Noble Doke might silo come on account of the duties upon wine. I tremble, my Lords, for the cuntequences which may follow if this precedent be now let. I fear fer the dignity of your pioceedings, and that decorum which ought to mark our coneuft, and which, think, would be violated, if we are to permit this Bill to pals withfa much precipitation through the Hat* ; but it is upon the merits of the cafe itfelf that I make my principal nand, and it is from the bell confzderatiots that I have been able to give that cafe, that 1 am de cidedly of opinion that this Bill ought not to pal's. The Earl of SUFFOLK Rated, that his father and his grandfather had loft their lives in the fervicc of their country, and he had very narrowly eftaped with his own life in A.Merica. Yet the compenfation which bad been given for feveral thoufaad acres of ;their property was only fool.'; although, if it w ere to be fairly fold at the preterit valuation, it would amount to fomething from 150 to soo,ocol. If the 'claim which was now before the Houk was to be granted, he did not fee why be might not come for t ward wick his own claim upon the , public. But he thought the condo& of the Noble Vifcount (Lord Sidmouth). who bad refilled fuch a claim wih the weight of his authority, while he was at the'head of the Adminift ration of the country, was highly ho nourable to him as a confcientiotu man and a faith fal fervant of s the public.' Lord MULGRAVE °braved, that he had as great a veneration for the principles upon which the other Houle of Parliament governed their conclua as the Noble Vifcount who had fpoken laft but one ; and his refped for their proceedings upon fuch a fub jell as that now before their Lordlliips, upon which they were known to be peculiarly jealous, induced, him the more firongly to vote in favour of the mea lure, which was known to here been three months under their deliberation before it was fent up to be difeuffed in this Houk. After entering at large into ;the hillory of the trsnfaaiou, the Noble Lord espial fed his opinion decidedly in favour of the bill.' sHe could not bring his mind to entertain flich high no t tions of ceconomy, in great and extentivetranfaftions k between the Government and an individual, as forpe others had expreffed themfelves to feel. g fach a feeling was to be indulged in, we might find *solo ; my degenerate into avarice; but hc trolled that Part Hameln would never, with a narrow view of faving, aft againß the principles ofjuttice. The Noble Lord then adverted to the manner in which a 'Noble and Learned Lord had delivered himfelf tatty in the de- bate—to that be applied the epithets beiticrous and rude. _ Lord ELLENBOROUGH rote to order. He de clatcd that Inch language was unparliamentary, and was not warranted by any thing in his fpeech. He denied that there was any thing either boifterous or rude in his manner of (peaking on the fubjed. He bad delivered his opinion freely, as an independent Peer of Parliament, and this he thould continue to do as often as he thought it neeeffary for him to (peak in that Houk, notwithaanding any unparliamentary epithets which :night be applied to his fpeech. Lcid MULGRAVE declared that in adverting to other circurriflances, he 'was reminded of the pat (le in that immortal Poet's pliakelpeare) Works, " Senior, your age Asa!l command more than your weapons poillbly can do." He was aware' that the ability and the fituatioa of the Noble Lord was en titled to refped, and he refpeded the public chaise ter with which he was invefted, as much as any Otani to the ability of that Noble and Learned Lord, whea -1 everit was exercifed with temper and moderatiod, he alto bowed with the utmoft Yelped. But when thh reins of pafflon were let loofe on the one file, it Was impoffible to argue on the other without Tome defree of irritation. Such language might well become's Demagogue in Palace Yard, who withed to route the paflions of the people, but it was far from !sting well fuitecl to a temperate and fair difcuMon of an impnr tam fobjed. The Noble Lotd then apologized to the Houle for having to wrongly expreffed an honeft in dignation at hearing the charge of a Job brought for ward in the comic of argument. Lord ELLENBOROUGH Gid, that he (poke of meafures, not 'of men t . he bad fpoken according to his ideas of what was juts in the cafe, and in fo doing was confcious 'that he tierforined : a moral duty. The LORD CHANCELLOR affured the Houle that in delivering hie opidion, however it might dif• ter from that of others for whom he entertained the higheft refped, he was guided by the principles of justice and fegregrated himfelf as.much as if he was in the Court of Chancery. • Ccrnfidering the inkjet% in that difpailionate manner, he Inuit fay, that the evidence upon the cafe•clid not warrant him in form• ing fuch an opinion of the inadequacy of the coin• penfation as other Noble Lnrds had done. The cafe of a femme couverte and that of an infant, were parti cularly entitled to the lupport of Parliament ; and it mug be acknowledged that the tranfadion was com polfory upon all, but the heads of the noble family who now made the claiM. Lord HAWKESBURY flipported the Bill, and reminded their Lordfhips, that betides the 70,0001. originally claimed by the Athol Family, there was a ho R( ide tiN de Ni K 0 sn