Star. — London, England, 1815-03-14 00:00:00

7 . -e- I.y • -J PARLIAMENT:ART PR9CEA:DINGS. HOUSE OF LORDS;MARCH is. The Judicial business was resumed, and at the usual hour this thy. when Counsel was heard finally on the Irish cause of Killet v. Killer—Judgment postponed. Also on the Scotty mine, Bure net v. Knowles, judgment on which was fixed for Wednesday; and Counsel were beard partially on the Scotch cause Drown es. Murdoch—Further hearing on W cdnesslay. The House then adjourned during pleasure. About five o'clock the Loan CHANCELLOR again took his etre on the woolsack. • The Corn Rill was brought up from the Commons by Mn BROCDEN and others, being entitled, an Act for amendisig the Laws relative to the Importation of Grain. The Marine Mutiny, and one or two other Bills, were also brought tip by the seine Gentlemen. A few private Bills were also brought up from the Commons. Certain ad litional Accounts relative to the Importation and Exportation of G:aia between Great Britain and Ireland, within a given period, were presented at the Bar, by Mr. •living, thlti Inspector-General, and ordered to lie on the table. The Earl of LIVERPOOL moved the first reading of the Con Pt I. I .ai I S I'ANHOPE was proceeding to address the House, when •I he Earl of KINGSTON rose, and moved the standing order i for the exclusion of strangers. aud in consequence the space beet low the bar was forthwith cdtared. During the exclusion of straneers the Bill was rent a first timel and owlet"l so be printed. No dry can regularly be fixedits‘a the second reading of the Bill until it shall be printed, if that pro..! coo ilaig he ordered. In shoat e 0 minutes the doors were again opened for tne ad-, mbsion of strangers. When they entered, their Lordships were I ged in receiving Petitions on the subject of the Corn Laws, i the great bulk of which were against any alteration, an I constr, trendy ha,tile to the l h ll. The Clerk then began to read the Petition from Greenwich, withdrawn on a preceding evening by Lord Gaenviaar, in coes , qu •nce of the objections made to it in point of order, the Petition being against certain provisions of the Corn laid, and not aeaitot any alteration in the Corn laws generally. Sonic farther discussion on the topic took place between the Limo Cita see t.I.VIt and land GRENVILLE, ciorfly of an expla nett ry nature; but as the Bill to which it referred, was now be fore their lordaltips, there was no hesitation in receiving the Pe titina, and iL was ordered to lie on the table. The Earl of NIANSFIPLD presente•l a Petition from the County of Middlesex, to which, it appeared, there were actually then no signatures; on this ground, its reception was opposed by the Lotto CHANCELLOR, who observed, it was impossible in such a case to know wham the Petition came from. The docu ment n as withdrawn by the Noble Earl. Ills Lordship then presented one from Perth, praying espe cially that the inipora , ion price may be minced from SOs. to 725. Earl PER' 'Y presented a Peltion trom the Parish of St. Mar tin's in the Fields againat the Corn Bill. Petitions were renew,' by different Peers from the town of Walnil, in Staffordshire. From the County Palatine of Lancaster. From the Borough of Torness. From the town and neighbourhcod of Dwatbarton. These were against the Corn BM. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE presented one from the Chamber of Commerce, in the City of Waterford, in favour of the measure. Lord GRENVILLE presented Petitions— From Liverpool and its v:cinliy. From the town of Shrewsbury. From the City of Glasgow. • From the town of Wolverhampton. • From Peckham, Camberwell, and Dulwich, Windinhampron, Port Glasgow, Corporalon of Coopers In Glasgow, Hammer men of the same, and Natingham. From the County of Dorset, andirons the Mt rchants, Traders, and Bankers, of the City of London, by the Doke of Sussex, which his Royal Highness said was signed by a greater number of persons than any ever presented to that House, viz. by up syards of 50,000 persons. From Atherstone, in the county of Warwick, by Lord Citr.rt ~tr e, all against the Curu Bjll, and alilch were severalty or dered to lie on the table. Earl STANHOPE said, th it as a considerable number of Peers were then in attendance, he should take the opportunity of in forming them the House was sunimuled for 'law - Way on a mo tion of which he bad given limier, the object of was to pre vent a rise in the price of grain, and at the same Owe to improve the situation of the grower. coPlkt LAWS. The order upon which ;belt Lerdsbips were summoned being read ; Earl GREY rose to bring forward . the motion of which he had given notice, and which was to the above effect. He prefaced it by a sperch of great length, equally fraught with argumentation and elo quence ; but of which we regret our limits confine us to a brief and general sketch. He came forward, he said, under an imperious sense of public duty to submit to their Lordships a motion on a subject not only of the greatest, but of vital importam.e. On this occasion he would abstain from referring to any details of the measure just sent up by the other House of Parliament, farther than was necessary to enable him to convince their Lordships that farther informa tion was highly requisite before they could proceed to the discussion of that most important question.— To the discussion he certainly should bring all that calmness anti temper it so peculiarly required.— These he deemed essentially necessary towards ren dering their ultimate decision just and satisfactory.— He must deprecate any taking tip of the discussion as a matter of adverse interests, between contending parties; the subject should be considered as one in cluding a large view of the general interests of all, as having an indisputable tendency to promote the general good. At the same time he trusted their Lordships would prove themselves peculiarly atten tive to the interests of the most laborious classes of the community, and of the manufacturers, and they should attenel to the feelings of these with respect, end regard their prejudices with indulg.,Tce—the best modes of persuading these classes that the ultimate decision of their Lordships will rest upon princirk, and whatever it may be, it would give general satis faction, as being wisely taken up, and on an impar tial and dispassionate view of the whole subject.— Coming forward in this view, one of the principal considerations which induced him to offer the motion lie was AbOlg to submit to their Lordships, was the great difference or sentiment among those, whose interests were supposed to have been exclusively at tended to in the contemplation of the measure. I-k !tad no object whatever of ilflay. He wished the enquiry he should propose, which was solely for the iiiucidation of truth, to be entered upoa immediately. In deference too to the almost innumerable petno:os of the people ; the investigation he should propose ought to be entered upon. The people, it was pos sii2le, may be misguided ; they may be mistaken ; they may be misled—but the most effectual correc tive at those evils would be found in the result of a calm and dispassionate inquiry into the whole subject, by avoidin t g all appearance whatever of precipitation und haste. The first consideration would be, whe ther there did not exist a ci,se which rendered farther' inquiry necessary ? and this he would contend ar.i li proved in the course of all that had been said in de bate there and elsewhere upon the subject ; from the numerous publications without doors—from the vo luminous reports and documents, and the mass of eyidence. He then adverted. more particularly to t h p Report of their Lordship:s' . . Committee on the subject. Which sat Imo the 131 of June to dee tW of July box year. He well Anew the ability and . 1 • which was employed on that occasion, and • important information was produced ; but the Committee, in producing it, state, in their Report, they.were themselves aware, that that information was by no mean' complete; and farther, they ex pressly recommended the House not to proceed to legislate upon the subject without farther enquiry ; in order to supply that farther information which they acknowledged to be defective. Such were the ex press opinions of their Lordships' Committee ; and such aloge, were there no other motives, would con stitute a sufficient call and ground for their Lord ships to proceed to farther enquiry. The various statements, and the urgent requests of the Petitioners, constituted another strong ground for enquiry ; a proceedin4 which more than any other would tend to allay their discontent. In the further illustration of the necessity of enquiry, he would admit, for the sake of the argument, that the principle was esta blished of the necessity of some Legislative inter ference; but the consideration of the manner in which that interference still remained, and on that point it became a serious question whether they were suffi ciently informed to decide ? The first question was, the regulation of the price at which the importation of corn may he admissible. That was fixed by the Bill at 80s. Upon this prominent point, it was first tnost material to consider, whether they were suffi ciently informed to fix it at that price. The evidence adduced farn!sbed no clear or possible data for such, an enactment. Much contrariety of sentiment pre vailed among the witnesses as to that point. In lustration of this proposition, his Lordship referred somewhat in detail to the evidence adduced.— On the question of the price at which the Corn Growers could afford the admission of importations, much difference of opinion prevailed. Mr. Custance thought it could not be less than 965. Mr. Haigh, from 90s. to 100 s. Another witness calculated it at 975. ; another thought it should be from 87s. to Ms. Mr. Bennet thought 965. Mr. Turnbull, Mr. Ross, and some others at 84s. and at 80s.— ' A great proportion of the witnesses were for having the prices higher than 80s. Another class of the witnesses expressed their opinions that the expenses of agriculture were infinitely higher than they ought to be. He meant not to impute the least improper motives, but most of these witnesses were persons whose interests were more or less implicated; this certainly was no reflection upon the parties, but the consideration was generally attended to in the estima tion of evidence given : but even among these a great difference of opinion prevailed as to the price which would be a sufficient protection to the farmer. There were some however, particularly among those examined by the House of Commons, who state, ' that a much less price than 80s. would be a sufficient protection to the farmer. Some of these were re ferred to by his Lordship, and in whose statements also much contrariety of opinion prevailed. He was of opinion that when wheat was at 118 or 120 a load, it would be sufficient. Another, the price of 725. should be a sufficient protection, and one thought, and which he admitted, on his farther exa mination, that even 645. would sufficiently remune rate the farmer. o:hers admitted that 735. 84s. or from 725. to 755. would be sufficient for the purpose. With such a specification of evidence before the House, upon what ground or principle, could the House proceed to adopt 80s. as the price ? But in that view, if they bad not sufficient ground for le gislating on the subject with respect to England, how much stronger were not the objections when applied to Ireland ? It was, bbscrvable the far greater part of the petitions in support of the proposed measure came from that country. He would first allude to a particular fact, namely, that before their Lordships' Committee there was not a tittle of evidence, as to the rate at whi :Is corn could be grown in Ireland. Before the Commons there was some evidence upon the point, but to different effect like the rest ; but its general result was, that a much less price was suffi cient to protect the Irish farmers, than for those in this country. But they were aware, from other sources of information, that corn could be grown there at a less rate than had been stated. As far as respected Ireland therefore, there was no proof that the measure was necessary. The effect of it must be to give a decided advantage to the Irish corn grower, and eventually to raise the rents of the land owner in that country, at the expence of the people of England. In this view also, the measure must be totally inefficient, as to the protection of the Eng lish flamers ; as Ireland, in consequence of the large remittances she is obliged to make to this coun try, will send in vast quantities orcorn, and under ell the English farmer at his own markets. These considerations were all additional calls for further in quiry, and these important facts ought to be clearly ascertained before they ventured to pass such a Bill as that now before the House. The circumstances of the importation of Corn from various parts of the Continent of late years, he next adverted to, and trom the view he took of these, argued that enquiry was the more neceuary. In this part of the subject he referred principlly to the evidence of Mr. Samuel Scott and of Mr. Barrett, and with a view to the ar gument urged in favour of the measure, from the magnitude of recent importations, he contended that nu fair decisive conclusion could be drawn, as these vroceeded from the extensive speculations that were !tilde in the article, in the expectation of the measur e now before the House. These opinions may be all false or erroneous ; but they were such as wed the necessity of inquiry, before they pro. ceeded to the adoption of a measure upon which the (pinions of the people of England were so strongly t xpressed. A view of the present internal and ex ternal circumstances of the country would also shew the necessity of further inquiry. Admitting 'even for the sake of argument that 80s. was the right price, yet the difficulties of ascertaining that price were coiiiiderable ; it was an acknowledged, tact, that the averages were taken in such a way as to lead ,to a. mist erroneous result. The twelve maritime !districts, for thtse were put together, by which means the smallest district in Wales, where not 100 ,quarters were imported, contributed as much to the estimating the averages as the city of London with its immense population. The difference between the :average and the real prices were in fact considerable, and this part of the subject too, contributed to chew .the necessity of investal 80*. mayatiore beAnothe r looked o objetctr is 'against - fixing the price 'the existing state of the circulation, and he belleted. a Noble Friend of his (we imagine the Earl or Lau derdale) would rc hard ly contend that such was not an important con s tion with reference to what was the difference of calculated value between the fount( currency of the country, the return of which was sci much desired, and the present medium of paper; .) and in this view the Noble Earl made some brief calculations as to the prices of gold at different periods. There were, however, some additional incitements, and those of more immediate inte rest, Which called for serious investigation. Ile meant the alleged calculation, that the price of 80s. would insure a permanent price to bread of 161 for the quartern loaf. This had been controverted by others entertaining a different sentiment. "Ile errors in the mode of taking the assize of bread, which loudly calk.' for regulation, constituted addi tional grounds for enquiry. He should urge this pro ceeding, without the least delay, because it may lead to certlin specific regulations, tending to effect a re duction in the price of bread to the people of this country ; a circumstance which would materially tend to allay that spirit of discontent which now so unfortunately prevailed. Above all others the ques tion was most important to those concerned or inte rested in the agriculture of England, as it involved the consideration whether or not SOs. was to be re., garded as a species of standard price, for if corn could not be imported at less than eighty shillings, and importation to take place every year, then that price must be paid for it. If that price were to re main, no country in Europe could afford to take it of the English farmer at that price, and this serious consideration called for close enquiry, before the price of 80s. should be determined upon. The Land holders, and more especially the labouring poor, who depended upon them, were more interested in the 1 investigation he proposed, than perhaps any other set of men. Ili many parts of the country, these were now in circumstances of much distress,— There was no necessity whatever for precipitating the measure now before the House. The importation was at present wholly suspended, and would be so for some time longer, and they had ample time for' consideration and enquiry, ere they should be called upon to make such a considerable sacrifice as that in volved by the Bill. Some general advantageous ar rangement may arise out of the enquiry, and the con dition of every class of people in the country may be greatly ameliorated, in which he trusted the Govern ment would afford the example in economising and reducing the establishments and expenditure, in every way that may be found practicable; and he doubted not their Lordships would do their duties in contribu ting to the effectuation of such measures. But he repeated, the enquiry was most impo•tant for the ' agricultural class ; their interests should be properly understood, and the pledges made to them should be redeemed, and this could in no way be done, so well as by an effectual enquiry. But the interests of all, commercial or landed, were more or less essentially concerned, for no measure which was prejudicial to the one could be beneficial to the other. Much dan ger may arise from precipitation, but none could re sult from deliberate investigation, and the good sense of the people of England was always such that they uniformly decided in favour of the good cause, when it was fairly and satisfactorily laid before them.— Upon the whole, he would strenuously recommend, and solemnly adjure their Lordships, to decide for the further investigation which was called for by the interest of all, but most especially by those of the agriculturists; and the result, he felt confident, would tend more than any thing else, to allay, and finally to obviate that spirit of discontent which unfortu nately prevailed, and which had so disgracefully ma nifested itself ; and would conclude by moving that their Lordships, previous to a decision upon the Coin Bill, would go into an enquiry into the subject at tire bar of the House. Earl of DERBY, withotit going into the question of the petitions, must declare that, he lelt the subject to be entitled to the utmost consideration el the House ; they should pause and give time tor ii,vesti gating it in all its bearings. He would, thiefore, give his cordial assent to his Noble Friend's mAion, to whom the Horse and the.country ought to led doubly obliged ; as besides affi,rding full °ppm minty for discussion, it would enable many Noble persons to retract their erroneous opinions upon the subject. Earl of HARDWICKE considered the eilairy , that had taken place on the subject acorn, to be as perfect as any enquiry could be. France was a country producing always more corn than she could consume, and therefore we could always procure a supply, either directly from her, or by the way of Germany and Holland. The greatest pains had been taken by the Committee of Enqu.ry, of which he had been the Chairman, and be himself had made !every possible effort to procure intelligence on the ,important subject. In fact, the Committee had gone as fully into the enquiry as any Committee that ever sat. The Earl of LIMERICK spoke in favour of Irish agriculture. He contended that the object of the Noble Lord was to keep the Irish landholder from ' deriving any advantage from the expert of corn to England. (His Lordship was called to ord,:r.) 1.4r1 GREY, in explanation, said that his opinion was, that the Irish agriculturist would be able to un dersell the English farmer, and therefore the Bill would be insufficient. It was consequently right to enquire whether such would be the of i.ct or not, be fore the House proceeded with it. The Earl of LIMERICK replied, that the vast importation of corn from the Netherlands of late had almost been the ruin of Ireland. The population of Ireland now exceeded six millions, two-thirds of v. horn were engaged in agriculture. These four millions, now unable to continue their formr pursuits, peti tioned for encouragement; they only wished to be enabled to export corn from Ireland, and to return the manufactures of this country. The benefit that hey i would give was therefore as great as that which they would receive. Earl SPENCER was anxious to state his reasons for giving his vote for the motion. It was the duty of the House to give due consideration to the in terests of all classes, and the only question was, whe ther protection was to be afforded with one's eyes shut or open ? His Lordship entered upon a resi . w !of the evidence, and contended that many things had .occursed since lad year which placed the subject in a new light; and considering the situation in which : the country was now placed, a complete inquiry was equally as important as necessary. Every body knew that tLe minds or men were more apt to be flamed on this than on any other question, aryl w,! out the advantage of the fullest consideration, its i n tits could not be ascertained. lie trustcd, howevr that the Hume would proceed with calmness in investigations. The Lad of 11A RDWICKE explained. Lord S I'. JOHN sail if the motion had b, male earlier in the sess.on it should Live had vote. From the situation in which ue were r„ placed, it WAS impos.sible that any good could rts, from delay. Lord BULKELEY felt great pleasure in r e p o , for the inquiry. Lord SIDMOUTH said, that he couli by means discover from any thing that he had heat that night, or understood, upon the clearest consiti, ation of the question, the least reason for delay., There never was a subject on which ParNament received more ample information for tLe last twe t years. With retpect to what had been said touches Ireland, he would remind the House, that the %air holding from that country the benefit which 'het was supposed to hold out to her, would be a violatit of the Articles of the Union. By that Act the cow tries became incorporated, and the privil,ges enjoy e by one part were naturally to be eatended to other. It could ant be denied, that the coin product in England was inadequ rte to the support of the habitants; and the question was, whether the del ciency should be supplied by Ireland or by Francs But the supply trout France must always be ptte a rious, and depend on her own convenience ; ander( recently the Gt:vernment of that country had d, creed, that no exportation should take place fel,' corn should be as high as 495. a quarter, a pric e that country, under present circumstances, holly vim to our 80s. As to the effect of the prohibitory pre of importation affecting the market at awerval rat nothing could be farther from the fact, which t'i. i rience has shetvn. In King William's reign the pa tecong price was far above the current market prig and so it was for a long period succeeding. A s the average referred to by the Noble Earl (Grss), was not to be relied on, and it did not at all he, upon the question. And after all the stress that hi been laid upon petitions, it was to be considered th petitions had come likewise in support of the ma sure. Indeed the numbers on the opposite sides ear. pretty nearly equal-65 and 69. It was remarkab: however, that the opposers of the meastaP had cr . out for no alteration, that is, for no amenJn a •nt, thereby set up a pretensina to interfere with the Oa: berative wisdom of Parliament. lie concluded sr: opposing the amendment. Lord KING was fully convinced of the propti of the House receiving farther informati to idcane th! proceeded to business of such vast iniperotece. Pi, deprecated the interference of the Le:;islatute at ai' in the business, and heartily coincided in the raWo: of his liable Friend. Lord MOUNTJOY observed, t!iat ther: !ia.l beer great irregularity in collecting the opi iin is of tl, people of Ireland on the subject in yu, ai n ; b there could be no doubt that the agrictilai:ists, principals and labourers in that country, would , ruined, if the protection which the creient Bill calculated to afford should b.: withheli ; and he co jured the House to save the lab ,uring classes in I. Lund 'from a relapse into the misety which is hat rally attendant on poverty and the want of emplo , mint. The Eail of LAUDERDALE entered into general statement of the labours of the late Co, Committee, which had pro4h all the nect:ssar) formation required on the suhject, an.l cor.cltn., with opposing the motion of his Noble Ftieral. The E4rl of DARNLEY ebserve.l, that his or. sentiments on the subject before their Lordships ofien bern declared. as (Tiniest, with all the it. illation which he had been able to obtain, WAS sti the same; yet he could not be so instusl):e to tl arguments set forth by I.i. N o ble F reeth ', nar to t l deference due to the Y. titian' on their Lardshir table. He thought circumspection and enquiry v cessary, and therefore should supp.al the mouun his Noble Friend. Lord GRENVILLE lamented the disponi; which seemed to prevail in that House in favour the measure which his Noble Friend had prorse. with so much force and just argument the bare poi poncment of. He was astonished that any alan should prevail in consequence of importations fro! France, when he considered that the %via: Of tl corn imported from that country in one year ameurl ed to no more than 1.50,000 quarters. He conteill. that it wculd be impossible for France ever to be come an exporting country, at least such a cord sion should not be drawn in the absence of evidence and information on that subject. Whi the Bill just introduced into the House came to 1 discussed, he should prove that a more pernicrei maxim never was cunccivcd than that of attern?:t.' to depend entirely upon ourselves, and thus cutta ourselves off from all commercial intercon:w air other countries. It their Lords'nips wished to Fr. serve the independence and prosperity of this cirri! they must keep up the fair balance of trade tls ought to exist in all departments internally and c ternaliy. This measure would have effect ep distillation, which must materially affect the reveal arising from that source ; respecting which there w , no information whatever ()dole the House. lieu plored their Lordships not to precipitate a 1341111 would do no good to any parties. The good the. were about to do to the manufactures, was iu our ignorance of the consequences to them; and ill' good they were to da to the agricultural intere , was merely founded on partial evidence, which I.tted only to themselves. He felt this to be a quf' tion on which gr...it difference of opinion must: did exist to Clow who d - ffered from him, " puled no other motives than tl:ose that directed own opinion. Ail his own private interests % v connected with agriculture ; but he thought Iln measure could do no benefit to the agricultural IM rest. The prosperity of this country did not on the interests of land alone, but on the genera confidence which the community would place in thj h: landed interest. And great an d dreadful woulil . the calamity , should ever t h e mass o) the commun e withdraw that confidence from the landed propr! tors. Therefore he again entreated their Lordslor; to pause before they proceeded any farther in thl s . as/t_step without more enqu i r y. The Earl of LIVERPOOL slid, the only gad ti . tf i„ a )e!.: 1 it ci r.o 4:4t ot r.• 3) 'et, J I had rt II ) ra I lb list PC jet: 110 4:u CO ia [ri efi Cr IVA re: pr , I.tr Jul : it 711( tt'a Pe of i ot, wh ice, I:ft tt. st it soth of at j le' disl the b:e enq per, abl! rest on t con! pat he, He al' D 1 tj iw A ee, 111 b . ! s (14: 9 .! Or dc !?' 6.; . v.. Mt Engli en: K oi l 101 TG Fr ,Ia ! 4: tilt 0 C ;nu or: air hulan lath c ..L, Mr jar of r. 7 be at! 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