Star. — London, England, 1802-12-09 00:00:00

, • .w • • es— T. - . . - 1rr 714, r7* --,- 7. - - -- . ---- .7 — . Iv -777: - • 4 • ' ' ' ; ,0. • '• ' • •-'• di * . . . • • . . , • • ***"* * '''''.-,...,- 1 • • ' • ' a . • I , , t .. , , t .*; . as Yika 1 s' .. 4 ' • 1 i i• N ....._ ...•••• • , I .>• kik ~.•A , ~.. t s , , • , 4 Air ~ - • ...... . , ~, ,i- - , • , * .it pr; .. • ts 4 , t 10 11, .1 ... • -. . . N ' • 4,,, , \ \ • Irs, N UMBER 436,23 - 4-, 4, PARLIAMENTARr PROCEEDINGS. HOUSE OF LORDS, WEDNESDAY, DEC.& Some Orders were made relative to hearing Scotch Appodp old other routine bonnet's difpo'ed of. The third reading of the Small Notes BM was poßpene4 Mr. Forwrow, attended by feveral Members, brought tip the Cheftcr Road Bin, which was read a firft time. After waiting fonic tinae in espeaation of farther communi otion. from the Conunows,their Lord&lei adjourned till to aurrow. - HOUSE OF COMMON& Mr. SHAZZI having taken the Chair, at . half part three (after (due Mcinhen were fworn, and fome private buikefs w as gone through) informed the Houle that he himfdf had been reamed on the late Election to ferve for two planes; namely, Meyteibory, M Wilts, and Wooditoek , in Oxfaitilkire; that Ise had made Ms choke to ferve for the latter, and confequently, that it would be needfary that a new Writ do Mae for the eke din of a Member to ferve borate former.—Ordered accordingly. Ordered alfo that new Writs be iffued for the eleation.of a Member to ferve for the Borough of Ennifkillen, in Ireland, in the room of the Right Hon. John Beresfard, who had been re turned alto for the County of Watnicrd, for which latter place he made his elation. MIN for Chelter, in the room of Lord gelgrave, called up to the Houle of Peers. Alto. fur Great Marlow, in the room of Williams, Erg. decesfed. Alto, for the Borough Otroorey, in Cornwall. Alto, for the Bo rough of POrtarlinreo, in the room of Henry Parini, Efq. who had accepted the place of Efebeator of Manlier (fimilar to the Chiltern Hundreds.) A Petition was prefented from Counfellor Plunkett. oldie lrilb Bar, and late a Candidate for the Corporation of Trinity College, Dublin, complaining of the undue return of the Hon. George Knox, as not being a Member of that Univerfity,--• Ordered fur confideration on the pft of May. Mr. Desaynes prefented a Petition from the Truftea of the' Commercial Road. Referred to a Committee, to fit tomorrow. Mr. Alexander brought up the Report from the Committee m the frith Militia ffiq. Agreed to, and ordered to be read the third time to morrow. He alto brought up the Report from the Committee upon expiring Laws, which was agreed mond leave given to bring in Bills purfuant thereto. Sir William Pulteney prefented a Petition from the Makfters of ihrewibury, aslinft the Malt-wetting Aft.—Ordered to lie on the Table. Read a feeond time the Malt Duty, Plate, and Pefifwn Tax, aid Exchequer Bilh Bill. —Committed for to-morrow. E L [CT lON I , /LT I TION S. The CIIANCILLOR of the Esenstlesa,adverthog to a notice be bad given to the Houle, on a former day, Minding the Pe tition from Great Grlmfdale, laid, it was his intention to more, that no Petition on the fub}ed of eontefted Weaken be " tam into confideradon before the Chriftmas reeds, to avoid the interruption, which would otherwife gik to preffing and indifpendbie bounds. He therefore •1 0 i That the Peti tion grdanted to the Houk, refpedting congaed Medicos, ihssidnck be taken into conlidention until a day fiddeoptent to the 17th of February. next. that the Hook would kat an oppor unity, after the of splinting the days tripoli,* for the confideration of there Petitions which.now feed for December and january."—TheModon was armed. Mr. 81. Joule prefented a Petition from certafb kleaors of the Tenttaltiottingham ; !Wog, that their Nomura bad bra einsibed to a former Petition, indented to the Hpufe, anjiainiog of beam retorts for that Town ea the late Eke deo, under a at6ttnierAlndium oo their pasta, of the dream- Imam toted in that Petition, from Which they *adore de- Auk is skidoo. their neinowi—The Petition being received, lad iisado kiblit. Jens till he 111 sold, en a future day, move for ldtgreferredtoaCemoksea; for the pideet, beady willted ft to oil the Table. • Wk. illlll`oll &id, thee what the parties who broeitt forth !Mr Petition woold tarry projeet fo far as en attempt of _Mode deceive the Hide di Cameos. he ceded to Matw at the irbidt had been fo feduloully made, grOsst dversa• tbelabik eniml upon this tobjea, by rakellredeliiitetiens and Weds. afterdoes. liewirpcomedbg. bet Was rmehrled by Mr. Speaker, that this was not the proper lbge for afeoflon. Tit Petition was ordered to lie on the Table. LIMY ESTI mA.Tas. nbure refolved htelf into a Cothinittee of supply, to Whom was referred the eftimates pre fungi b_y bettetarif at War on the rft inf. The 81ClairAlif Wit now role and raid, that ut propofmg to the Committtz a motion for a Shp ply on the army eftimates, for the =fait* year, he adult! Yrefpatfs on their attention as &only as pbehle. The extent hf the force he had now to propofe, was undoubtedly Much greater than bad been ufual uponmy 'of die former peace ettablifli :tend of the country ; but the queflion for the Houle to cnntider was, not the dillimilitnde be twee: the prefent and any former peace tftablifli hent, but what were the circuinftances iihderWhieh the country Rood, aid what the neceffity founded on thofe tliettlisflanceet or Whether public eco homy, tinder fuch circninftinces, and at filch a time, was to be cohfulted, in preference to the at raihnient of thole ample means which the fecuri ty of the Nation deManded ? After what had been already (laced from both fides of the goufe un der the knowledge of circumftances notorious to all Europe, it mull be totally unneceffary to wafte the time of the Honft, in proving the neceility of keeping up a great army, as indirpenfibly neceffary to our fecurity. The fitnation of Europe, at this moment, but too fully explained and enforced that neceflity the encreafing power of France ; the ag grandixing fpirit of her Government, and the for roidabfe attitude that country at this moment at famed were cirtumftances too obvious to all Eu rtpe to render it prudent, on the part of this coun-, ttY, one moment longer to delay the neceffary Reps it/ t amply leaning us againft any danger which ma: nienitte, tor esn.y attack that may be meditat tie aga inft us: but at the retie time without any with onour part to violate therelations of peace and =pity. On the contrary, it was the fincere wiflt or the Government of this Country, by every means in their power, to perpetuate the Peace; and by abßaining from every fpecies of language or re. mark, that might have an irritating tendency; by maintaining faith, and ful fi lling treaties, to avoid every t hing their part, that could provoke or joßify aggreflion; but at the fame time that they wifhed to avoid thofe terms of peevifh vitupe ration and wonstinifh afperity, that could anfwer other parpofe than t ha t of an ufelefs and un necelfary irritation, it was their duty, and their d etermination, to e prepared with the means of repelling any attach which the ambition, or the Malice of an enemy might prompt him to attempt. Feeling then, as the Mule he was fore mull, the ileeeffity of preparation for either alternative: and looking to the prefent force of France, he believed oo ran would fay our Navy alone, formidable as THURSDAT, DEC.thiljEß 9, 1 802 it is,and however well direded, was fufficient to the protedion of our extenfive coatis and wide fpread doMinioni. France, poffeffed of fuch advantages or her geographical fituation; miftrefs of Holland and the Netherlands; commanding the navigation Of the Maefe, the Scheldt, the Rhine, polkaed of all the important fortreffes that line their. banks,' and poffeffed of molt powerful and (till encreafing armies, was an object altogether which this cone try could not view without ferious alarm, and againft which the was imperioufly called to pro vide for her defence. He could not, therefore, re fled without aftonifliment, upon the affertion of a Right Hon. Gentleman upon a former night, whole talents in other refpeds he fo highly admired, (Mr. Fox), that he could fee no caufe for alarm, and that the belt fecurity againft attack, and the thong eft furety for the perpetuation of Peace, on the part of this country, was (mall armaments. In fuch a fentiment he believed no man, on either fide the Houk, would coincide. Before he pro ceeded to move the different branches of the pub lic force, for the land fervice, it might not be amifs to 'late to the Honfe, what was the prefent military force of France. There he Rated under their feveral regimental details, as amounting in Cavalry to 46,350; Infantry 341,050 ; Artil lery 26,000 ; Invalids 14,560 ; a force altoge ther amounting to 427,9t0 men.—Such, then, being the aaual military force of France, un der her peace eftablithment, no man, he believ ed, could doubt the neceffity of fuch an en lagentent of the public force in this country, as would amply fecure us againft eventual danger. Here be could not withhold his ,approbation from the fentiments expreffed by a Noble Friend of his, upon a former night, that with every with to pre ferve peace, it was our chitty to be prepared for the alternative. For, in fad, we had no other ground upon which to ref 'for the certainty of peace, and the fecurity of defence ; but in main taining fuch a force as would render it obvioutly inexpedient, for any Foreign Power to violate the relations of peace with, or venture an attack upon us. Thus provided, and thus only, could we be warranted to rely on the permanence of peace; for without this there was no fecurity in all our accu mulation of wealth and commerce, which would only teem to invite attack and lead to difafter.— Unwilling as he was to trefpafs on the patience of the Houle, he could not pafs unnoticed a remark which came from a very refpedable quarter, on a former night, that large !landing armies, in times of peace, were unconft i tution a l, b ecau f e hey were liable to be perverted by the Crown to bad pur poles. He was ready to admit, that the remark would be ju Illy applicable to (landing armies, kept up without the content of P ar li a m e nt ; but f ar e to boding armies, kept up with the content of Parliament, founded upon public neceffity, and the prefervation of public fecurity, the remark would by no means apply. He had read in an ancient and celebrated Author, that good laws may be defended by . good armies ; and he was convinced, that in the prefent pofture of affairs, ours would be belt fecured by main taining an adequate force by fca and land.— With refpea to another argument, from the fame refpedable quarter; that the belt way of prepar ing for danger was the hufbanding our refources, and thus keeping up bur credit : of this policy he fully admitted the wifdom ; but the Hon. Member who brought forward the objection should confider, that in all calks it mull be governed by the necef fity of exifting circumftances. If i 00,000 men be thought likely ro form a fufficient force for the defence, it might be imprudent very confiderably. ' to exceed that number ; but in the prefent afpedi of affairs, it was furely the wifeft policy to be pre pared with fuch refources as we did no: know how fuddenly our fecurity might require. It had been (aid, that money was the finew of war, but that Grew mull have body and limbs to give it opera• tion he always confidered it as among the finews of war, but of itfelf it could do nothing. Its bell e for the public fecurity in the prefent crifis, would be in the eftablithment of an ef ' ficient Navy and Army, which would enable us to ad at a moment's warning with decifive effed: —Not only our fecurity at home required this. but the fafety of our Colonial acquifitions abroad:, —The acceffion of Ceylon and Trinidada of thetnfelves, required a confiderable increafe of force for their defence. The Bon. Member then entered, at length, into a minute detail of ar rangement of the Land Forces for the enfuing year, from which he (hewed, that (rich difpofitions had been made, as to render thofe forces, in a very confiderable degree, more e ffi cient than they had been in preceding years, and at a much lets com parative expence. In the Cavalry of the line, for inftance, which codified of 3 regiments of Horfe Guards and 27 regiments of Dragoons, ten men in every troop were difmounted, but difciplined in every refped for cavalry fervice, by which means, , not only a ccm fi derable P aving would be effected in horfes and forage ; but a fulficient number of dif-, mounted men would be always ready to make good the deficiencies from ficknefs, or on guard, and render each troop or regiment efficient for fervice. An arrangement had alfo been made in the Infantry Regiments, by adding a Lieutenant and 23 Men to each company, whereby an addi tion of 25,0ci0 effeaive men would be attained.' with an enormous Paving of expence In the pay of Officers, and other contingencies. The total of this force would amount to 118,909 men t of which number the Cavalry amounted to 17,a10 ; the Foot Guards to 6060. The number defined for fervice, in Great Britain and Ireland, was &moo ; and thofe for India IllocM, officers exclufive. There were, betide, (even new battalions to be formed of the Ont•penfioners of Chelfea and Itilmainham . hot / At l as, in play of the Invalid Corps, which had ' been . difbanded ; whk)i would be rendered con• fiderably more efficient than the Corps of Invalids —a name, by the way, from which it might be implied they were totally unfit for fervice; there men were to be embodied under a corps of able officers, and by doing the duties of garrifons, would render the troops of the line more difpofable for emergencies, and the difference of expence would not exceed 50001. Having Rated this much, he felt it needier* to trefpafs farther in detail, as every Gentleman was in poffeffion of the abftrite of the Eftimates, he would barely remark, that the amount of the eimate for the krvice of the year was but 5,500m001. being lefs thali theta ft 270,0001. Arrangements equally eligible, had been made with regard to the Militia ; and it would fie found that in a comparrifon with the precedink year, under the head of Barracks, a laying ha a been effeeted of not lets than 3 00,0001 . The lion.Ment ber next proceeded, to notice the charges made againft his Maje fly's Mini fters upon a former night', for having difbanded their armies on the very see of the occafion, when they find themfelves obliged to call upon Parliament for means to recruit the public force. In anfwer to'which, he alledged, that the only troops that had been difbanded were the Fencible Corps, which were only raifed upon ;the Ripulation of limited fervice during the war. The Out-I'enfioners, who might again be embo died on Ilion notice, whenever their fervices were thought necelrary, and Foreign Corps, to the amount of 8,500 men ; who certainly were not the defcription of troops moa to be relied on for na tional defence, •then Britith troops could be had. Of all other deferiptions of troops, the total num ber difbanded "Os but 7Soo men, and thofe either men who had been worn out in the fervice, or men who had enlifted on the Ripulation of being difcharged upon the renoration of peace, and with whom, for the honour and advantage of the fer vice, it was neceffary to keep 'faith on this point. Having finifhed this part of his flatement, he could not difmifs the rubjed without congratulating the . country, that the Britilh Army, at no period of our hiflory, was ro numerous, or compofed of more able•bodied, or better difciplined foidiers, in higher fpirits and vigonr ; or commanded by abler Officers; and while the:country recolleded, that this force was under the chredion of an illunri ous Prince,fkilled in his profeffion, and attached by hereditary and patriotic des to the defence of his na tive country, her King and Conflitution, there was httlein the Attitude of enemy,howevetformida- We for the firkins nation, to dread. In addition to the troops of the line, we poffeffea a Militia of somoo men, which inightboimmediately increafed by ao,ooo more. To this was to be added that van ' sOlt-towlio,--ehtbfilitil of Ireland. kits blnjelly,l too, had been enabled to accept the fervices of the Yeomanry of the country, 8,000 of whom were already embodied, principally compofed of Caval ry. In Ireland the number of Yeomanry embodied was (till greater ; the Cavalry alone confining of io,ooo. So that the whole armed and difciplined force of the United Kingdom ready to take the field, upon any emergency, for the public defence, was upwards of soomoo men, exclufive of the Army in India : a force by no means likely to ftrengthen the inducement of attack from any enemy who might . form defigns of invafion upon thefe countries. This Ratement, then, he hoped, ' would be received as a full anfwer to thole charges of credulity and incaution,which had been brought againft his Majefty's Miniflers, who had thus been proved feelingly vigilant to the public fafety, and zealous for its fecunty. He concluded by moving the MI Refolution of the Supply. Mr. Mass was not Armed to fupport in pub lk the opinion he had before declared in private : but feeling, as he did, he felt it his duty to declare, he did not "think the fecurity of the country de pended altogether upon the maintenance of great (landing armies. In fupporting this opinion, when he refieded on the preliminary debates that had taken place on this fubjedt, he did not fuppofe he now rpoke to a very willing audience ; but it was neceffary for him to explain the motives why he differed from fo many opinions he fo highly re fpated. It was not becaufe he thought the con dudt of France lets fufpicious than others did ; his condud, he believed, had in no inflance fubjeded him to the fufpicion of favouring the views of that' Government, but becaufe he feared that in the endeavours to . guard againft thofe views, we were lavithly throwing away our means of defence. If there were any circumflances in the fituation of the country that ought not to be revealed, yet which called upon the Houfe to vote to his Mar ily's Mi. nifters a force fo much greater than the ufual peace ellabliftiment of the country, he did not with to oppofe It; but when he heard Gentlemen argue the relative mate of other countries, be thought it bad policy to lain now thofe refources which we might want In time of emergency, and which et. h aufted now, would render us inadequate in cafe the danger fliould be really found to exift. It had been Paid by a Noble Lord, that no economy was fo bad as a low peace eftablifhment. Wish refpee to for mer peace eftabilibments, he could only fay, they were fuch as maintained this country in a !tate of the higheft refpeeabiily with foreign nations, and maintained the moft petted fecurity at home ; and to the Maori and experience of many years he would appeal for the truth of his affertion. If there was to be no fecurity for the country without equa lizing our military force to that of France, the cafe was obvioutly impradlicable in the nature of things; nor could any caufe of difmay be fo firong as the admiffion of fuch a maxim. Was there nothing in the fingularity of our &nation ? Was our navy an inefficient fource of defence ? He did not, he qwned,, rely on it entirely ; but furely we were I not iii the fituatiort of Auftria, with a frontier to ibidthat was telly approached ,by Ink ace- . .willPft • 4 "it 1.46 "rt or.: 1 PRICE SOrePENell. ing, then, no fuch neceffity, lie looked' To the hitP handing up our refources with rational eecononitl , He did not mean to fay,..that facing of money '*4s i in all cafes, to be preferred ; nor that money might not bea firong temptation to attack, from a power ful enemy, for the fake of plunder. It was called the finew of war; but he was ready to admit, that of itfelf it could do nothing ; for the nation which could command armies, and iron, mull always triumph over that which relied merely on gold.. I Another argument he had heard was, that fo long . as we had alliances upon the Continent, they re • &tied babk upon this country an additional de gree of military Rrength ; and, therefore, that it was our bell-policy to cultivate thofe He lamented the prefent fituation to which our allies were reduced ; but he thought it the duty of thofe who governed the country, to be eautions in forming fuch alliances on the Continent as thole, which, during the IA century, had fo frequently I embroiled us in wars—not for Britifh intereds, but kir - their own. , With refpea to the defence of this countiT, he thpught that at no time fence' the civil wars, were there fo many of its inhabitants train. ed to arms as at the prefent moment. Here then was a fource, to render which efficient, the bell ex• ertions Should be made. The &ft notice of war from France might be the appearance of her ar; mies on our chaffs : and if France really meditat. ed the defirultioh bf this country, what would an army of 66,000 men avail ? bur if the French faw the fpirit of the country at large oppofed to them, they would not be inclined to encounter with the efforts of thofe men, in their own lead, whofe prowefs they had' fo frequently experienced, in de► feats at lea ;—whole valour had fo recently tri• umphed over them in Egypt. This wits the ground on which he placed the ftrongeft reliance for fecurity. Tolhe charge againa Minifters, for improvidently &banding the Army, he thought the fpeech of the Right Hon. Gentleman a.. full refutation ; but he conceived the economical fyfiem mentioned by him, inereafing the prottifional Force of• the Cavalry and Militia, ought to be car ried to much greater extent; and he visited thole hints, though not in the prefent year, would in the next, form the beginning of a permanent Peace - Eltablilhment. Sir W. W. WYNNE would not oppofe the eta. blifhment, though he thought it a moft extraor• dinary Peace Eltablithment indeed ; brought for. ward as it was, without any explanatory commu nication, as to the grounds of its neceffity,frorn his. Malefty's Miniftcrs. The SECRETARY at WAR explained. Sir EYRIE Coors declared his moft hearty con-_ currence in the propofitions of the Secretary at' War, nod faid, the fore, Rated appeared to him • neceffary to put the country in a fituation of being able to repel danger, fhould it really occur. It would enable us, not only to defend our own coafts bat to have alfo a difpofeable force ready to aft on any. emergency. Of the regimental arrange. ments Rated by the Right Hon. . Gentleman, he expreffed the higheft approbation, .as admirably calculated to render the public force efficient.— Every man, he raid, mull allow the times were big with events ; and it behoved the Houfe and the country to look to our fituation with the molt ferious attention. For his own fiat, he was con vinced his Majefty's Minifters would at with the temper and firmnefs which became them ; and ufe the force committed to their hands for the effedual protedion of the United Kingdoms. Lord TEMPLR faid it was impoffible for Mitt, confiftently with the principles on which he ailed, to oppofe the propofition of this night; convinced, as he was, of the indifpen fi ble neceflity of exerting all our refources ; convinced, as he was, of the intentions of France, and convinced, as he was, of the defigns entertained by the Ruler of that coun try, for the fubjugation of this. GOD forbid, therefore, that he fhould, by any vote of his, damp the fpirit of the country, or check any little ener gies which he faw riling in the difpofition of his Majelty's Minifters. But at the fame time he matt condemn the novelty of proceeding in this cafe, whereby the Right Hon. Gentleman calls upon the Houfe for a Supply fo unufual, 'without explain ing an iota of the neceffity on which it was founded. The fame condult was obferved on a former night, when the Navy Eftimates were Molted by another Hon. Gentleman ; and it was ()Wing to the fpirit and perfeverance of a Right Hon. Friend of his ( Mr. T. Grenville) that Mainers, on that occafion, were obliged to (peak out. On that oecafion, as well as tonight, the Houle was told, that Pease was to be maintained if podible; but that we were to be prepared for war. Still, however, the Houle was left in the dark to forth its own conjeaures ; nor could it now tell whether it mit called on this night to vote a Peace or a War iftablifhment.-.. The Noble Lord then proceeded to a detail of circumstances refpoiting the difbanding of troops both at home and abroad, under circumftancel which warranted the molt ferious alarm ; for it was juft at the moment when General Leclerc was faid confidently to have been completely fuccefsful atl St. Domingo; when he poffeffed a formidable force ready for any other expedition; and this, whet our Weft India Mends, and particularly Jamaica, warezpored to the danger of an attack. Anotbst ground of accufation againft Minifters, for difitimat ing the public force, was the treatment of Atilt remonftrance on behalf of Switzerland, whitbef they had fent their Envoy, Mr. Moore. i 4411 fat the honour of this country was, or was apt come promifed in that affair, the Houle had yet to keen but it appeared, that at the very moment that * ad of aggreffion was committed, Minitters mere throwing away the power to relit it. In JUMP ft, 95,000 men were voted ; we were then in of all thofe conquefts which were afterwards to be Curraidfad tcp tin mph pada the Tow et . 1 •••••,..