Star. — London, England, 1805-05-14 00:00:00

puted to them ; they have rot only gone beyond the abjuration required of them, but Ciey have re nounced all the claims which they are charged with entertaining. It cannot he forgotten that they did nor fcruple to f.gn a tea which was even drawn up by the LT aned D.-etor himself, for quieting the fcruples and fears of their Proteliant brethren : a tell by which they (wore to re'ped property, to be faith ful to the King, and to maintain the Church of the Country. It was taken by the Clergy themfelves, and Lt me fe:ioutly prefs this plain confieleration, that the Protetiants have no right to fay that in taking that t, - .:1, they took an oath in which they did not believe. It any Priaeflant, it the Learned Doc tor fags fo, am I not juilified in diking, did he who was principally concerned in framing that oath, draw it up with a view of perjuting the Roman Ca tholics ? Did he undertake that meafure for the nor pole offending them more readily to the Devil? The Learned Doctor is however unfortunately anfwcrcd by his own tell, which went to make them Catholics from being Papias and yet he lays that every Catho lic is an enemy to a Proteftant King and Church.— In every vehement controverfy, in every difcullion of intemperate zeal, PRoVIDENCF, we have reafon to rfjoice, has fo dealt out the meafure of juftice, that the lips of the bigot !hall teliify to his own retina- Nor can I fuffer the charge to be pallid over in lilence, that the Irifh Catholic is an enemy to the Protellant and to the Englifh. I appeal to every Gentleman who hears me, and feveral have had opportunities of forming an accurate opinion on this point, fume of them having acted as fectetaries in Ireland, whether an Englifhman is hated in that country ? I beg the Learned Doctor will tell me in what county it is that neither a Proteflant nor an Englifhman will not be allowed to live ? Rather, Sir, permit me to fay, with all the confidence of honefly and truth, that there is not a tingle county in Ireland in which they do not love the men, no mat ter of what religion, or of what country, who will life them well." [Here Mr. Grattan, having taken a Runt review of the rebellion in Ireland from 141, contended as a fixed principle, that there did not cz ift in the Roman Catholic religion any permanent caufe of war, and having alluded to the miferies caul ed by the lamentable difputes of feCtaries, he declar ed if events had not tended to improve the !late of the country, there mull have been tomething fo effen tially bad in the frith mind as to caufe the curie of their forefathers to be preferved and handed down as an inheritance to their children.] 4‘ If it be faid (continued Mr. Grattan) that the rebellion in 1798 was not a Jacobinical rebellion, but a religious one, I fhall content myfelf with de nyii:g it, arid ground my denial on an appeal to the reports of the Committees of both Honks of Parlia ment, and to the dilpatches of the Lord-Lieutenant, declaring the North to he in rcbelli In, and the South, where there was a much greater number of Catho lics, to be in a hate of tranquilhty. It has been ad vanced, and I candidly admit the liatement, that the conceflions made to the Catholics were very great. They furely were, and they were received with gratitude, and produced the molt beneficial effects, from 1778 until 1792 and 1793, when the tights of man were preached up. The fpeech then made from the Throne was diftinguithed by its wif dom, and a petition was the refult. But it appear ed that the Irifh Government did not agree with the Englifh Government in that relpeCt, and having profecuted the petitioners as defenders, it was thought beft to hang them. The Lint Catholic found the hot tility of Government againil him worfe than the hofti lity of the law. I cannot but confider the Roman Catholic religion, abltratied from Popery, as con taining twoobirds of Chriftianity, fit for all govern ments, while I look upon the impediments to that fitnefs as arifing out of the policy of man ; and ar guing by analogy, I feel myfelf jtatified in laying, that the fame caufes which have made the Protef tants of Ireland happy, would he attended with the fame confequences, if allowed to operate on the _ _ _ Catholics of Ireland. But Genticmen keen to think that the objetis of the Petition are matters of little • importance. Upon their weight and magnitude, it is not reqiiitite for me to enter into a long difctiffion. It is fufficient for us to know, that they conflitute the fubjeEt of fair and legitimate defires, fince they are enjoyed by their Proteftant fellow-lubjeets ; and the Roman Catholic has as much right to tight for his guinea as you have to fight for your thoutand pounds. They have in fad their rights acknowledged by law ; and in five A.ls, which palled from 1778 to 1793, you will find thefe rights proclaimed and recognized. You a•itl find, that they all hare the Catholics to be a loyal people, and that the proprie ty is eltablithed of admitting them to a participa tion of tights in all civil and military employments. Thofe, therefore, who argue againft their claims, are anfwered by the law; and I confequently confider the Catholics as identified in principle with the Prow teflants in the (+jells of their Petition. There are' , about thirty-eight offices to which they afpire, (I l e ave out fome of a fubordinate nature,) and I can difcover no folid reafon, unlefs we admit the reli gious doctrines imputed to them to be loch, that ibould deny to them the capability of filling their fituations. They pay their (hare of eight millions of taxes; they fupply the army and navy with one, third, or one fourth of their numbers, and yet they have not a finglc commiffion in either. Wh;le we preclude them from an handl and noble ambition to attain honours which are (hared by their Pro teftant Countrymen, we fhould not forget, that we deny to them that growth of mind which is moll valuable to a country, and which, of all things, moll tends to the civilization, to the greatnefs, and to the happinefs of qi lime. It is really too much to hear the charge of barbarifm made againft them. They cannot well be stigmatized as barbarous who export a million of coin, and pay eight millions of taxes. If I am anced what it is that retards civilization, thei e can be no difficulty in anfwering, that it is the anima l': y of religion ; and if tile arguments fet up againft them are to go for any thing, they will be found to go againft the laws, not againil their religion. The motion of my Honourable Friend is marked by a ju• dicious moderation ; and the effeel will be height -•ed by the candour and promptitude of conceffion. •• feems that all fie fears, all the alarm, all the )rmerly infpired by the Pope have not yet The Pope is however but a mere name ; hik infilled in opinion ; and fince he was taken by the French Conful, he has completely loft influence wiling out of opinion. But were the opinion by which he was once fo powerful re amed, how would it affeet us ? If fix or ten Catho lies elated to fit in this Houfe were altually excom municated, what then ? Are you not afraid at this moment of his excommunicating the one-third of your navy and army ? But Bonaparte has got the Pope, and the frith Catholics would rather follow the Pope, and be the (Lives of Bonaparte, than be the fellow fubjeCts, with (goal right, of En2lifh men ! Hnw grange is the dilemma to which you reduce yourfelves by there frivolous apprehenfions ! What will yin do wish your army, with your navy. with your wives ? I with. for my own part, to avoid all recrimination, becaufe, in every contelt of that kind, religion mull fall a vielim. The infant feta ries let themfelves adrift from Heaven, they will tear up the foundation of their faith, to pelt each other with the fragments. Much lir& has been laid upon the Revolution and the Bill of Right', for the pur pofe of defeating the motion. For one hundred years there was a profcription of property, a profcription of religion, a profcription of confliortion. In my mind the grand principle of the Revolution, is the principle of civil and religious toleration, which by propagating and diffufing itfelf through all claffes and all delcriptions of lubjeCts, tends to the happinefs of the whole empire. In reading the Petition of the Univerfity of Oxford, I find it taken for gra:.ted, that the Roman Catholics are the enemies of liberty. The Bill of Rights is founded upon the petition of rights ; but let it not, Sir, be forgotten that the great char ter is the foundation of both, and that it was obtain ed by your Roman Catholic anceflors ! If you refute the objeCts prayed for in the Petition now before the Houfe, you will ellabliffi as a principle, that Ireland is to be encouraged by promoting religious diffen tion, and that by dividing and weakening the people, you will ftrengthen the Govenment ; a principle conipofed of a party Government and a party Goo. If your incorporation with the Parliament of Ire land has given you flrength, would not an incor poration with the people of Ireland be adamant ? As there fhould he no Inch thing as an exclufive PROVIDENCE, neither fhould there be any fuch thing as exclufive rights and -benefits. grich was your opinion when you recruited in Ireland for your navy and army. If your Admirals and Generals ordered the Roman Catholics under their command out of their 'hips and out of their ranks in the hour of danger, in the moment of battle, what would be come of you ? Your empire would evaporate ! Let me then, Sir, entreat the Houfe to turn, and look at the magnitude of their danger. Aultria may esift as a fecond nation—Pr uffia may cult as a fecond nation. But you have linked your being with your greatnefs ; and when you have ceafed to be great, you are no thing. Ireland is vulnerable ; I admit it. Why ? Becaufe you have governed her ill. You have voted an army and navy from Ireland, but you forgot to vote your freedom to that country. That is the vote which is neceffary to produce and encourage that quality of mind upon which you can ingraft that high fpirit and atnbition which are neceffary to meet, to overcome the perils of the time. Let your freedom be diffufed through Ireland, and the will loon be come a part of your ftrength. Do not withhold from her in her weaknefa the regimen that has made you ftrong. Give to Ireland the benefits you have promifed ; you can afford, and you are bound to give. Give then, and your union will nut be nomi nal—you will MEd, create, infpire, confolidate. You have, fence the union, added 40 millions to her debt, and tome millions to her taxes—Will you add nothing to her freedom and comforts ? Since you have ex tingniffied the Irifh Parliament, what have you done for Ireland? I followed the courfe of that Parlia ment for fourteen years—l mean from the affertion of its independence in 1781—and there were many meafures of great national benefit which refulted from their deliberation. Do you exceed them. The violence of party and its oppofition to the fentiments and interefts of the great body of the people, led to the abolition of that Parliament. Do you take care that a fimilar oppofition on your part may not lead to a fi milar confequence. Do not legiflate like chil dren, by refilling upon childi(h i;rounds, the Rrong claims of the Catholics. As you are at war v ith a na tion, that relies principally upon the friperiority of her population, render all your population effeetive. In- Read of buying foreign aid with fubfidies, buy the aid of your own fubjeas with kindirefs (a cry of Lear! Lear!) Depend upon it that if you refufe the ap plication of the Catholics now, you will regret it and be ready as loon as poffible to atone for your rnillakz. The caufe of the Catholics is too flrong to be with flood. Remember the cafe jn Ireland between the years 1792 and 93, when the Trilh Parliament made a complete change in their refolution refperfling the Catholics. You will. if you rejerft the motion of my Hon. Friend. rely on it, have to imitate the condo& of the irifh Parliament. The fuccefs of the Catholic claims is certain. Nothing can endanger it but any turbulency in its favour. Bot I hope and troll the Catholics will not by their conduCt ri(k the charader they have obtained.—Let them rely on their allegi ance and the jullice of their claims, and they mull triumph. While I addrefs this to the Catholics. Jet me alto exhort you to retied upon the neceffity of conciliation. I remember that during a former re bellion in Ireland you expended zo millions of your wealth, and much of your bell blood, without adding one inch to your territory or any thing to your fecu rity. Let me warn you to guard againtl future rebel lions and difcontents ; let me urge you to remove the great caufe of dilcontents, by that bane, religious dif cord. That is irremoveable while the penal code remains—Remove that, then, and Irifhmen will fight the foreign enemy—not one another. We Bull flrive to forget what is pall, and look only to the future. Following the advice of a Daly, a Buelse, and a Flood, names ever dear to Ireland, let us leek the improvement of that country, as molt efrential to the reconciliation of its inhabitants. Let us learn lams of wifdom from our adverfity ; while half of Europe is in battalion, will you Rand contending about myf ter ies ? -but I am exhaufted."-s—Here the Honourable Gentleman fat down. The ATTORNEY GENERAL profetred him felf el , anxious to concur in any meafure, which had for its ()Ned the confolidation of the fir;ngth and in tad} of the country, as either of the two Hon. Gen. tleruen who had fupported the motion ; but the propel fition of the Hon. Member who opened the debate, did not appear to him in any way calculated to meet that end. The Hon. Gentleman had Rated the ab araa queftion of right with his WWI pexcifloo, but certainly not fo flrnng as he might have done, nor could he agree with him in the inferences he endea voured to deduce front it. The Hon. mover of the queition argued, that no danger was to be apprehend ed at prefent in admitting Catholics to the reprefen. tative privilege ; poffibly not. Great numbers may not come in at fir ft, but Parliament was to look pro fpeCtively to the area of the meafure, and the proba ble line of cnnduet that would be purfued by them, when they timid obtain a (hare in the reprefenta tioh. He did not fuppore that they would endeavour to recal, and replace upon the Throne, a branch of a family which had been formally excluded. He did not fuppnfe that they would endeavour to take away all the tithes ft-fin the Proteflant Clergy, for the purpile of giving them to their own ; but if a pro. pofition were made to take away part of the tithes from the Protestant Clergy, for the porpole of con ferring them on the Catholic clergy, he was not lure that many worthy men may not be found inthat Houle to entertain it, and, in the event of a divifion, lie was foie the Catholic reprefentation would be as a dead weight in the fcale. He timid not take up the time of the Houfe in confidering all the objections to which, in that particular raped, the motion wes liable. He would content himfelf with proving, that it was repugnant to a folemn fiipulation between Ire• land and Great Britain, and in doing that, he would furnilh, he had reafon to fuppofe, fufficient matter for rejeding it. The Itipulation to which lie al luded, was that contained in the filth article of the Aft of Union, which exprefsly mentions, that the Proteltant Church is to be the efiablithed Church of the State. It was laid, that the meafure would put an end to all dilaffedion, and yet, in the very fame breath, Gentlemen alleged that none exilled. He would agree with them in the praifes which they had bellowed upon the loyalty of the Catholics, and admit, that the Rebellion in Ireland was not a Re bellion of Catholics, and that no greater number of that perfuafion were to be found in it than might be ex peeled in a country whole population was in a great proportion Catholic. The conciliation of Ireland was the oltenfible reafon for bringing forward the meafure; but if that were really the quellton, Gentlemen would do well to confider the effect of it, not only upon the Catholics, hut upon the Proteflants alto. They fhould confider what would be the alienating opera tion of the repeal of the Fifth Article of the Union, upon the Proteltant population of Ireland. He feared the effed of it would be, to deflroy that tranquillity which the Honourable Mover of the Q2eltion feem ed fo anxious to maintain. Even that morality, and confcietttious regard of their oaths, which was laid to be fo firongly inculcated by the tenets of their religion, fhotild convince Gentlemen, that, in a re gular orderly way they would omit no opnortutu nities of procuring for their religion all potlible ad vantages. It was true, that the Petitioners abjured any intention to fubvert the Proteflant religion, for the purpofe of introducing their own ; but did they profels for the whole Catholic body ? Did they pro fefs for the Clergy, as well as the Laity, or did they only profit's for themfelves ? He had looked at the petition, and he could not find the hand of a fingle Clergyman of the Catholic perfuafion affixed to it ; and the reafon affigned, as he underhand, was, that it was a Petition for civil rights, in which they could not participate. The Catholic Clergy had not ab jured the expedation of being rebored to all the dig nities which were polfeffed by them previous to the Reformation; and if they had, he would not have thought fo well of them as he did. Had they not their Bilhopc, their Dean , , and all the gradations which were to be found in the Ellabliffied Church ? and knowing this, who could fay that they had relin. quifhed all hopes of enjoying the emoluments apper. taining to thofe dignities ? One of their tenets was, that , they were bound to pay tithes only to their lawful paf tors. Nay, fome perfons had carried the principle much further. A Mr. M'Renna, a very able man he would acknowledge, had propoled, in a treatife of much learning and ingenuity, that 3c or 40 acres fhould be purchafed in every parilh in Ireland, and a bottle fhould be built on it for the Catholic Clergyman.l— Was not that a plain indication of the extent of their hopes and prolpeds ? No man could entertain a doubt that it was their inclination to propagate their religion by every means in their power. - That was a principle infepaiable horn the charader of every religion. Were he in a Catholic country, profeffing the religion lie did, he fhould feel an inclination to advance that religion, and fo it. as natural to expel the Catholics would do, whenever they had an op portunity. He was not fo fanguine as the Honour. able Mover, in his expedations of the advantages that were to refult from the meafure propufed. He did not think it would produce conciliation in Ire land, or give that fatisfaClion to the Catholic body, that was alleged. On the contrary, the drat of it, in his opinion, would be, to bring the two Sees nearer to each other, and conferprently to increafe that fpirit of rivallhip and jealoufy which un fortunately fubfilted between them. He claimed the indulgence of the Houfe for a few moments longer. He law there was no great difpofition to Wien to him ; and after the manner in which the attention of the Houle had been gratified by the eloquent and able Member who addreffed it for the firft time, he was aware that any thing which fell from him mutt appear flat and uninteresting. He thought that no alternative could exift between keeping the elk. bliffiment they had, and putting a Roman Catho lic eflabliffiment in its place. If Gentlemen would make up their minds to that, they might conci liate Ireland, but not otherwife ; or perhaps they might enter into a treaty with Bonaparte to allow the Pope to grant them another Concorda. This ap peared to him to be the only true way of flaing the queftion. The immunities which had Len already granted to the Catholics, he thought, were fufficitnt; and there was one of them, he meant the eleiftive franchife, which, had he been a Member of that Legiflature, he fhould have felt an incrnation to oppofe at the time it was brought forward. What privilege was there which they did not enjoy, with the exception of fitting in Parliament, and the ca pacity 'of being appointed to a few great offices, in as full and complete a manner as thofe who profeffed the ellabliffied religion ? They had nothing to defire on the fcore of toleration, that they and every other Diffenter from the Eftabliffied Church did notenjoy as fully as they could with. Anxicits as he was, to conciliate fo importaqt a Member of the Empire, he could not bring himalf to approve of the meafure propofed by the Hon. Mover. if the demands of the petitioners were conceded to their numbers and tl majority, no poflibility would remain of refuting t•• comply with any future demands they may thins proper to make. What their numbers and majority (hall have once obtained, would only tend to late them to frefh demat,ds, until nothing remained for them to require, and they became not merely prevailing party in the Rate, but exclufively the Ilan. itfelf. For thole redone he would vote againA motion :or referring the petition to a Committee. Mr. ALEXANDER (poke with great animatior. again!' receiving the Petition. He condemned tier introduCtion of theories by the Hon. Opener of the Debate, formed on principles inapplicable to fit: Rate of Ireland. He complimented the ability fhewn by the Hon. Gentleman oppofite (Mr. Grattan), bur commented with confiderable feveritr on his cm:- duB in the Irifh Parliament, where his talents had been inflrumental in the ditireffes of the coup:: •: . had there heard him difplay the great phyfica: refulting from the number of the Catholics, :r, molt dangerous manner. Such condo& tended ti :r. flame the ignorant rebel peafantry of Iretinct, and produced in that country fcenes of rebellion and bloodfhed which were only ended by the help afford. ed them from England. He had heard the ph) Cleat force extol'ed and exaggerated, till be law the ph)• fical force abfolutely in the field againft the Govern. ment of the country ; nor did he find the lionous able and eloquent Gentleman In ready as many others t o concur in the means of ruppreffing that rebellion. The Hilton , of Ireland would (hew, that jacobititin was merely an infirument to cover the pallor for reparation, and this paffion arofe from Tome cattle. perpetually aCting on the people's minds. He ct n tended, that the King ought to be abfolved from the neceffity of being a Protettant, if he were expofed to be furrnunded by Roman Catholic Councillors and Great Officers of Sat . The laws of the c' wary ought to he math according to wifdom and esperi ence, for the Aeneral regulation, and not to fuit t h e views of a few high minded men. Aftcr humiliating the Church, and degrading the Country,not fifty con verts would be gained, and no benefit derived, except two or three fine theoretical el:gart fpeeches.—(l kir cry of cnnylion was very frequent during Mr. Alexander's fpeee.) Mr. W. SMITH obferved, that if the Houfe did not teem defirous to wait longer, he would move an adjournment. (A loud cry of Adjourn ! Adjourn !) Mr. W. SMITH was proceeding—(Adjourn Ad journ!) when he moved for an adjournment till this day. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER Paid, that he thought it was dcfirable that the debate fhould have terminated on that night, but had no ob. je4lion to adj• urn, as it teemed to be the wick of fo many Gentlemen to deliver their opiniuns. (A cry of adjourn repeated) The question of adjournment was then put and carried nem. (ca.—Adjourned at a quarter before three this mulling till the afternoon. ened by tt But it feel teams foi ceafed. ' • power con prifoner b all the ial HOUSE OF LORDS. The Adjourned Debate upon the Catholic gliefon took place. Lord SUFFOLK (poke in favour of the Paid Oil, rod the Earl of BUCCINGHAMStIitte againft it. Lord HUTCHINSON complained of the unfounded affertions which had been made by a Noble and Learned Lord reined - dog the principles and conduct of the Irina Catholics.—Lord REDS SOA La Lid, he kw no reafon to rostra, his afferdons —Lord OItMOND exprelled hindelf greatly fur. prifed that the Learned Lord 'Should have adopted fo many old women's Stories.—Lord Boairrqonu was rather friendly to the meafure.—The Archbilhop of Ca satasuay, the Lord CHAN crttoa, Lords Al.ll/41.tale, HAIROWDT, Wtergoataise, ELLEN/01011CH, CHICHESTIIt, AUCKLAND, BOLTON, and the Billion of ST. ASAPH, (poke agalnit the motion. The Duke or NOILPOLIC, Lords Moasa, Kirto, Dwascar, and LONG/91D, were in favour of the Petition. Lord GRENVILLE made a very able reply to all the ate aliments adduced againft his motion. He condemned the affec tions made by Lord R eossoAte relating to the principles and eonduet of the Irilt Catholic.,, the direct contents of which he pledged himfelf to prove, if the propofed Cottle mittee were granted. He lamented that fuck fentiments (bould have been bruached by fuch a perfon ; and obferved that the calumniated Hierarchy h.td aged directly the reverie of what had been imputed to them. His Lorellhip then adverted to tt , e obfervations which had been made, that the propofed meafete was uncalled for by any county meetings in Ireland, and oblcrv cd that the molt amiable character of the petition was, thit it was not produced by any clamour whatever. ft bath beers admitted that the Catholic Noblemen and Gentlemen were loyal and deferving. If In, where, he would elk, could be the design of the meafure for none hut the Noblemen and Gentlemen would be expeeted to hold aiy fituation of important truft in the State. His I.ortlihip then combated, with much force, the whole of the other arguments which had been adduced againft the quid tion, 3111 declared his firm cceividion, that the adoption of the meafure wan M.Crilary to the frcurity of the Empire. Let the refult be what it would, the difeuffion muR produce elllntial good. Its general completion was itch as to prove that re:fon muff tr.umph in the e:KI ; fueeef. may. for a time, be deterred, but the rank of jultice molt ultimately prevail. Lord SIDMOki laid a new words in explanation. Ttic Houle then divided, Contents - . - . .if Proxies . . to —49 . 14t Contents . - - i3i Proxies - - - - o '_l 7 s Majority apinft the Catholics—tt9 Adjourned at Six o'Clock this morning. PLYMOUTH, MAY I morning arrived hoe the following (hips from the Channel fleet : DREAD NOUGHT, of 98 guns ; TEMERAIRE, Of 93 ; ILLUS TRIOUS, of 74 ; MINOTAUR, of 74 ; MAR;, of 7 1 ; RAMILIfS, of 74; and Bst.t.teoroas, of 74. he ref! of the flee, confuting of twenty fail of the are gone to Torbay; they ar: come in to viBll'', and the utmoll exertions are rmw ufing to gc: t: ; ready for fra : a great number of foldiers ate t • ployed to REA in loading the lighters with which are to be difpatched immediately for To: . The frigates attached to the fleet are left off lite.t, to watch the motions of the French flee, who, 10 doubt, will take the .11 opportunity that offers, for putting to ha. &stemless, bias to.—Arrived his Majefty's (hip ?do/mom! from Yarmouth, and the NAMUR from Chatham. The Vutirnas (loop failed this morning with the Baltic trade, 42 fail, under convoy, with a Rrong breeze at Watt. P. S. The THALIA has come down the River Thames to the Great Nore, and the ARCHER gun. brig has arrived from the Downs. c r A. B. will aloft alTurcdly take care to kcep every lean that Y. Z. of K. L. requites. LONDON: Prtntcd aad Pubbilied t,y I.hVFL (of Can . terbury-phee, Latabob), at the STAR OITICt, Ng. t, i• erect. Publilhodolle tit•STAll Oftic•ll, 'ICMVe-liNf• .