Star. — London, England, 1818-02-07 00:00:00

' ~~ • e PAY?. T lA.IIENT. , IRI' PROCEEDINGS. - e l\rirtraNtplOßDS, FEBRUARY 6. Their Lordships met at the usual early hour of Cause Days e brat this Session) when Counsel were heard in the follow cases : 'itiiscomb v. Hare, (which was partly heard last Session), in eoctinuation, and finally.—Judgment postponed. Cormack.e. Trapaud—On which Couns::l were fully heard, r.d judgment, in like manlier, postponed The House then adjourned for some time during pleasure; Lica resuming, The Irish Grand Juries' Presentments Bill was read the se- Ind time, and committed for Monday. Petitions, on the part of certain Irish Peers, to be allowed right of voting, Ste. for Representative Peers, on behalf of part of the United Kingdom, were presented, and re ferred fur consideration to the Committee of Privileges. Adjourned till Monday. HOUSE OF COMMONS. The Honourable F. RO/UNSON took the oaths and his seat on t re-election. Lord FOLKESTONE presented a Petition from John Knight, of Manchester, one of the persons apprehended, pray - that a Bill of Indemnity for Ministers may not pass, dm.— :ad, and ordered to lie on the table and be printed. The Noble Lord then presented another from Samuel !Layne*, Manchester, to the same effect.—Result similar. Lord OSSULSTON presented a Petition from the Clock and 'etch Makers of the County of Berwick, praying to be relieved the License Duty, which they are obliged so pay, amount -141. 125.• the Petition being brought up and read, BROUGHAM would wish to hear something on this _.eject from the Gentlemen opposite, as it was a mean and op pressive way of picking up a few taxes. It was a tax on dealers in silver plate, pawed 70 years ago, and was never intended to to poor country watchmakers, who perhaps do not sell one silver watch In a year. It wan a fact, that. Messrs. Rundell and Bridge, the great silversmiths, paid no more for r license than the poor petitioners; and it was only lately ,c it had been pretended the Act applied to them. Mr. LUSI II GTON observed, that it was quite impossible have a graduated scale in proportion to the quantity of articles by Individuals. If the law were in existence, Ministers id not be blamed for.lUoperation. Mr. BROUGHAM contended that Mr. Pitt, a person of no a authority, did not believe watchmakers to be liable to this , and suggested a small annual tax upon them, on account, .of their being silversmiths, but of their own trade. Mr. LONG did not think that while the Act was in existence, Government could interfere to excuse such persons from paying Sc same as all who dealt in articles of silver. Mr. MONEY presented a Petition from the Magistrates, Freeholders, &c. of Wellington Salop, in favour of the Act for preventing the sweeping of chimneys by climbing boys. The Honourable Gentleman said it contained a fact of 600 chimneys having been swept under the directions of one master sweep, a machine which had been found so completely to answer, it had failed in only one instance out of that number. Read, and ordered to lie on the table. Mr. PEEL gave notice of a motion for Monday, to move for me to bring in a Bill to abolish the taking of fees from pri soners in Ireland. Mr. CANNING presented a Petition from Liverpool, play ing for an Act to allow the lighting of that Town with Gas.— Read, and referred to a Committee. BALLOT FOR THE COMMITTEE. The SPEAKEZ stated, that the House was about to be called over, for the purpose of balloting ior the Secret Com -kiitee, when Gentlemen would prepare their lists, and put them into the glass on the table. - Mr. Tit:liNEY thought that Gentlemen who prepared the should take it on their own responsibility to select the names of persons who were likely to attend; and he hoped they would not pet the names into the glass without having first made themselves acquainted with this subject. The names were then called over in the order of the Coun ties, and a number df papers were put in the glass. The SPEAKER said be believed the practice was, to repeat the names, to give Gentlemen an opportunity of adding to the glass, who might not have heard themselves called.( Syne -,end cries of " Nu, *a, waste of tiste," front the Olpositsat.).— mammal' the County Members only were then repeated. The motion that a Committee be appointed to examine the said Lists, and report thereon to the Rouse, was then pot and carried, and Twenty-one Members withdrew with the glass to Speaker's Chamber. COMMITTEE OP WAYS AND MEANS. BANE RESTRICTION ACT. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER wish merely to call the attention of the House to a mo he was about to make, which he did not appro. head would lead to any discussion. He had only to propose the usual annual grant moved from year to year, on account principally of the outstanding Ex .ltequer Bills. The Right Hon. Gentleman proceeded recapitulate the different amounts of the Bills, and awed the application of the sums already voted for their discharge. He then added, that he should now move a Resolution for a sum not exceeding SO mil- Boris, principally to pay off Exchequer Bills, which with three millions en account of the Land and Malt Duties, would enable the House to go on without ,y further.supply till after Easter. Mr. "many wished to know if he understood Right Hon. Gentleman, that he meant to move _ . SO — millions exclusive of the three million! ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER re ied, that he proposed to take one vote of thirty Mons on account; and when the General Supplies the leer came before the House, a•satisfactory statement of their appropriation would of course be `wonght forward: , Mr. TIERNEY was desirous that the House could understand whether the sum proposed would sufficient to carry on the,public service between now and Easter, without any farther application, or vhat plans the Right Hon. Gentleman had in view this purpose. Was one part of this sum to be applied to the public service, and another to the out standing Exchequer Bills? If he understood the matter right, the outstanding Bills due before Easter would not absorb all this ?—( The Chancellor of Ms Exchequer nodded assent.)—Exactly so. This, then added to the 3,000,0001. from the Land and MalZ Duties, would be the sum at his disposal ? The CIIANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER pre- Imed to say, that the sum now voted would be sufficient to cover any outstanding Bills due before Laster. Mr. TIERNEY.—Was the amount of the Exche. suer Bills such as would absorb the whole of the so aims before Easter ? Then all the sum voted foe the public service was three millions. If this were not sufficient, the rest would remain to be made' 1001, or added to the deficiency. The amount of . Ways and Means never should exceed that of the tpplisti voted. But still he was not satisfied, whe ,her he understood the Right Hon. Gentleman that the amount of the. Exchequer Bills to be paid would "I,orb the whole of the SO millions, leaving only the ree millions for the public service ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, e thought there could be no question whatever that the SO millions would be principally applied to the discharge of those. Bills, but ...ether the whole sum •!.c• proposed would be thus absorbed, was a ques- Lau to whkb it was not possible to give•atr answer ; the Right Hon. Gentleman must know that Ex chequer Bills of a later date 'sere not paid oir before those of in earlier date. No Exchequer Bills w ere due and payable, as he must know, till four months after they were issued ; and therefore it would be for Parliament to consider of the means of providing I for what might be due at any future time of the year. Mr. TIERNEY--The assertion made by the Right Hon. Gentleman, that this sum would enable him to carry on the public service till after Eastter, was cer tainly satisfactory. But he had some little slifficulty in understanding how it was that so small a sum could answer the purpose. He, however, wished for, some information respecting the 6,000,0001. of Loan that was to be paid off. Was there any understand ing with the Bank, whether it was to be paid to the Bank by bills or money ? If they took bills, the Bank would be precisely in the same situation as they were now ; for they would have locked up in their coffers 6,000,0001. for another year, with this exception, that, the public were gaining only the difference between the interest of 4. per cent, and that borne by the bills. The subject also respecting the resumption of cash pay- , ments had now become of the highest importance; ' and from this day forward it should be his object from time to time to ascertain what steps were taking by the Bank to resume those payments at the period , Axed by law. He would, however, assume, that for' any thing the Bank knew, and GOB knew, he hoped he might venture to say, for any thing they wished to the contrary, they might be able to make those payments at the time in question. But yet, if he were rightly informed, they had taken only one step for that purpose, namely, that of preparing gold. But if this preparation had been brought about by an in creised issue of notes, he should then deny that the public would derive any benefit. He saw several . Gentlemen smiling, who had not given attention to this,important subject, and therefore they might well be supposed ignorant of it. They seemed to say, 44 What would you have better than payment in gold?" He would say, he would have a reduction of their issues in paper. Now respecting this payment of 6,0000001. which it appeared the Bank had de manded towards enabling them to make their re sumption, if the Bank were to take payment in bills, the only difference to the public would be between four and three per cent. He therefore wished to ask, whether any arrangement had taken place for the payment in money or in Bank notes ? If it were to be in money, well ; but if in notes, it should be made a point of honour with the Bank not to re-issue those notes so paid back to them. But if they take Ex chequer Bills, they have no controul over the issue of Bank notes, because their rule is never to sell Exche quer Bills ; indeed, by the rule of the Bank, such bills cannot be sold; for their charter prevents them from selling any thing that they cannot buy. If, there fore, the Bank were to receive those Exchequer Bills in payment, he would say, that except he found a considerable reduction in Bank issues, he should move from week to week, to see to what amount their issues were. Such a measure would alone afford a wholesome proof of returning specie, without which all the labours of Finance Committes would go for nothing, as long as the monstrous opinion prevailed, that the paper of Government cannot be converted linto cash. He well knew there was a most powerful body who lived only on the fluctuations of the day, who cared not what might happen in another year, and to whom nothing was so productive as leaving every thing in a state of uncertainty. But he would put it to any sedate and well informed man, whether it was not a duty incumbent on all persons who knew the benefit the country would derive from a return of 'cash payments, to exert themselves from day to day while the measures for producing such a benefit were in the course of adoption. This was one of the most important subjects that could interest the mind of man, as it went to shew whether Great Bri tain should be theonlycountry in Europe which should stand under the stigma of having its legitimate cur rency withheld on account of the deep connection that had existed between a Government and a Bank. Feeling as anxious, therefore, as he had uniformly been, he was most desirous of ascertaining all that could be known respecting the transactions in question. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER felt no objection whatever to answer the Right Hon. Gentleman's questions, which he had no reason to doubt were put with a view to inform and benefit the public. With respect to the £6,000,000, whether they were to be repaid in bills or money, he had not the least hesitation in saying that they were intended to be repaid in money—(Hear, hear.) He also thought it most clearly desirable that no question i shotdd exist respecting the supension of Bank Pay ments on account of - any accommodation given to Government, and the accounts would be put in such situation as would prove this to the satisfaction of the Right• Hon. Gentleman and every body else. But if it should be his duty, he would be prepared to shew that if any farther Restrictions were absolutely ad visable, it would be on grounds perfectly distinct from any advances made by the Bank to Govern ment. Indeed, he thought it highly desirable that the Bank should be able to afford accommodations to trade unfettered by any such advances. On these grounds he should submit the plan to the House for the payment of 5e6,000,000 after the recess. Of this sum at least 1,000,0001. would be saved to the pub lic, by the arrangements that would be then made, and which would lead to the winding up of a long account. But certainly he would deceive the House if he were to intimate that nothing would be wanting towards the public service; he should not at present, however, offer any thing that might lead to antici pate a discussion. Yet, whether the Bank would refuse their cash payments in the present year or the year to come, he was anxious to leave them to the full manage ment of their own resources. Mr.`RNEY added, that nothing could be more satisfactory than the Right Hon. Gentleman's answer respecting the 6,000,0001. but he hoped he ould not be disappointed as to the reduction of their issues. He was surprised, however, at the levity of the Right Hon. Gentleman, when alluding to so se rious a subject as the resumption of cash payments. Whether they were to take place "this year, or the to come," was a most s e r ious matter indeed.— year to however, on which the farther protrac tion was hinted at was well known to every body to be this—that great loans may take place in this .country on behalf of foreign powers. But would any' man say that these loans were not just as well under stood in this country at the present moment as they would be six months hence ? Did the Ri lion. Gentleman believe that preparations were not making 'grow but of those great foteign transact : , stow, or that money was not continually going out portant consideration, that they might of this country for that purpose, through many per- operations of those arrangements of the sons selling their property in order to transmit it the Bank, that might compel it to ilith. abroad ? Did he not know that large remittances rious wound on the country. He tnuA had been made abroad, either towards these loans or ever, from the Right Honourable Gen , for some purpose or other ? Bat the result would be, i there were any transactions in agitation that these remittances would go. on as usual. Then I obviated. Nothing was more fallacious what grounds were there for continuing the Re- But the question for the House might striction ? The Right Hon. Gentleman seemed to the circulating medium might be dimini think that the danger we should have to incur on sing enormous capital on foreign securit this account by the sth of July next, would be done country ? He hoped the House and the away by the sth of June. It was known that amongst look gravely and seriously at this import others there was to be a loan of 3,000,000/. to ration ; for when we know that money Prussia, and the question was whether monied men raised at home at little more than two pe a could remit it better now or then ? Why he dwelt by investing it in foreign countries trio' so much on this topic was, that the Chancellor of times the amoui.t might be acquired, the Exchequer had said that the Bank were prepared to place our capital in foreign funds m to pay in July, and that there was nothing within and acknowledged. And then it becar probability to prevent them—(Near, hear, from the for consideration, how such an operation Chancellor ofthe Exchequer.) He was glad to hear on the treasures of the Bank ? On the the Right Hon. Gentleman cheer, because he thereby he was of opinion that no Honourabl narrowed the subject of this question—whether or would be so bold as to imagine that a no, in the Committee, that must, as a matter of not exist that might make it necessary course, be appointed, he would be able to obtain sa- subject under the deep consideration of tisfactory information from foreign merchants, that for if the Bank was necessitated to pay foreign loans were injurious to this country ? He, precious metals might presently be se:, for his own part, thought not, and he would tell the country. He only hoped that the Hc. House why—he had looked back at the price of his Majesty's Ministers credit for no , rt: gold at the time of the Austrian Loan in 1796, and question to their consideration till the he had found that it had not advanced in any degree as it was one that involved the best in worth speaking of on that -account. Therefore he country—a question that might tend would say, let the Bank be liberal in the purchase circulation, and thus be the protest its;, of gold, and niggardly in the• supply of paper, and be countenanced. It wouldbe better t there would be nothing to apprehend. In fact, if triumph by even a little procrastinatio. gold did not then remain at the Mint price, he enabled us to look fairly at the gametic: would never open his lips in that House again, at claimed, on the behalf of himself and i-. which many Gentlemen, no doubt, would be very any view beyond what might appear ci far from sorry—(Laughter.) tinct, and special case, for preventing th Mr. F. LEWIS thought it required no prophet to cash payments, if found necessary, du: . convince every body that the resumption of cash Mr. HAM3IERSLEY observed, that payments might be made with infinitely more advan- was no desire to prevent persons from i sage to the country this year than in the next. But money in foreign countries, they ougly there was a subject connected with the issues of Bank raged to do so. He alluded to an paper that was of more consequence now than ever. Treaty of 1814-15, which certainly e; He alluded to the mass of Country Bank Bills, to subjects of this country to invest their i which great importance had formerly been attached. and this appeared to him highly object Every body knew that the operations of the Bank of the preference given to the holders of England regulated those of all other Banks, but the arose out of the circumstances of the m, subject was seldom inquired into. It was a fact, Lord CASTLEREAGH said the del that within the last two years and a half, no less than tish subjects, which had been considerei 25 millions of country Bank Bills had been with- of 1814, was one arising out of pec drawn from circulation, and the consequences of stances, which gave the parties a jte.,t which could not be forgotten. With respect to the country. The arrangement which has price of gold—last year it was not above sd. or 6d. ted in that Treaty was to indemnify the per ounce above the Mint price—a mere trifle, so fected, for English property which had that the Bank, by large purchases, might easily have cued at the commencement of the war got rid of that millstone which had so long been perty had been placed in the situation hanging round the necks of themselves and the pub- found in, on the faith of the Treaty of lic. He entreated Gentlemen to enquire into this gave British subjects the right of with most important subject, and they would find that property from France, in the event Country Bank paper was issuing now with the same breaking out. The claims of such per rapidity with which it was withdrawn. He would admitted in the Treaty of Amiens, an, then say, that the rise in the price of every thing can- Government and of the country had bee not be prevented, because it will call forth an abun- support them. Had this not been done, dance of this kind of paper. Seeing, therefore, the been said that they had been entrappei vast importance of this subject, he would entreat the their goods to France by the Treaty of Committee to ascertain whether or not it were t r ue therefore thought necessary to introd. that this enormous mass of Bank paper is rapidly re- on this subject into the Treaty of A: issuing : and there was no cause why it should not was to give effect to that that the st re-issue, or any means to prevent it, while it is known rained in the Treaty of 1814, and that the large sums of this kind in the Banks forms peered still more conspicuous in the the source of all their wealth. Could any man be- had been brought forward. It had lieve that so large an amount could be again sent but to give relief to one particular cl, into circulation without affecting the price of every who had risked their property under thing ? Why then were we to go again through all which he had referred. He begged tha the distresses and destruction of the last two years distinctly understood to contend that - that we had passed ? Could it be believed that when who now placed their money in foreig Bank paper was not wanted for the purposes of Go- have a similar claim on the Governm. vernment, It would not be wanted in a tenfold de- try. If they-chose so to dispose of t gree for the conveniences of commerce and traffic the country would not be bound to en( more than it is now ? Such speculations in paper inconveniences of protracted warfare, rendered no species of property secure. Our lands through their pecuniary (peculation were taxed on account of the poor's rates, and all been done on the occasions of whit species of funded property were depreciated, while the spoken, could only be called for in public suffered by the advance in the price of every where the subject acted on a particu, necessary of life. He hoped this matter would be observance of which the country was bon deeply inquired into before it was irrevocably settled Mr. HAMMERSLEY expressed whether the Bank should or should not resume their gratified by the statement which had , cash payments in the course of the present year? but he was of opinion Lord Auckland Lord CASTLEREAGH thought it extremely de- it was concluded in 1787, was never m, sirable that this question should not now be pushed to claimants like :some of those wha to a discussion, particularly as there were not grounds been attended to in the late Treaties. sufficient before the House to raise a. decision upon The Resolution was then agreed to, it. The Honourable Gentleman who. spoke last, and rat others, which passed without discs indeed all others, would do wrong to his Majesty's The House then resumed, and the Ministers if they did not suppose them sincerely as Committee was ordered to be received anxious that the Bank should resume their cash pay- SECRET COMMITTEE. meats as those Gentlemen could be themselves. In. Mr. BROGDEN brought up the deed it. would be highly gratifying to them if the Committee of Scrutiny, from which t Bank. payments and the circulation of the country the ballot had fallen on the following could be restored as soon as possible. But Gentlemen Lord Milton ' The Attorney might rely upon it that enough would be made out Lord O. H. W Cavendish, The Right H: ynne The Ri,,ht 11. to constitute a special case, should the Bank be likely L or a c am i ertag h , Mr. W. Errs: not to resume their cash payments at the period in Lord lasoeSes, Mr. W. \\*tar. question. But he was sure that no set of Gentl emen Right Hon. C. Bathurst, Mr. B. will were more interested than those of that House, in The Hon. 14 . m. Lamb, Mr. W. Dui Slr A Pigeon The Right I taking care that the Bank should not be suffered to N s: Sir W. Cum open at a moment that would compel them to with- Sir J. Ni c h o i, Admiral Fri hold all proper accommodation from the country.-- The Solicitor-General, He differed, however, from the Right Honourable When the name of Loru G. CAVEN Gentleman (Mr. Tierney), who thought that no case Sir 14. W. RIDLEY wished t o s t a r, could arise that ought to prevent the Bank from re- ble Friend the Member for De r by was sliming their payments, and would say, that if a case miles from town, on a ve r y imp or t a n as should - arise of such large foreign loans as would he would therefore be iscapabic of render the withdrawing of the specie from the Bank hoped the Noble Lord opposite wool, dangerous, Parliament owed it to the count r y to re- don to his name being struck o u t of new the Restriction Bill, but not without a special room for that of Mr. Tierney. case could be made.to the satislction of the House. On the name of Lord Ciisretuten , Foreign loans might be contracted for of such magni. Mr. BROUGHANI declared he It tude as might be truly alarming, and over which the tion to the Noble Lord being named Councils of this country could have no controul.— this Committee, as he would in a m He apprehended, that if the q u e s tio n we r e deemed Judge on the question whether he hie necessary to be brought befo r e the House, it would to certain actions which might he be found one infinitely more imperative and impor- him by private parties, or which had tant than the 3,000,0001. to Prussia, alluded to by been brought. On this question, if the Right Honourable Gentleman. But it was im- he could wish to take the sense of 11 possible, at the present moment, for Ministers to open When the name of Sir A. PIGGOI to the House the circumstances which, in their judg- Mr. BROUGHAM said he was meat, might render it necessary to make a commu- the House again, after a Committee ideation on the subject at a future period. They with such solemnity by a select numbe were, however, ready to admit, and to repeat, th at He, however, could not but object • there was nothing in the remotest degree connected his Honourable and Learned Friend, with our internal state or foreign relations that could being placed on this Committee now, form the slightest objection to the resumption of the ballotted to serve on it last year, and payment at the period expected. But these might I Lord CAS I'LLREAGIL in aids• . - : T^ ' • • ''. -, i'"471'.:7.7.81rag 1. ' = Ai' . oe.t. ' " ' . • . s • {. : -. N..., . , . 1 I -. • . • i I MEMOMMIM P..• • •N ... IP . 0,..1 Tbit (the fir. itg Cali Ruse COttillll Corn and juo The on its r. The cond tii Petit Weir ri: that pa • ferred I •tdjc i • The Lis ro-e Lord Knight lag that Read, The 1 of Man Lord Watch from tb jog to , Oc t Mr. subject preside : lit silos apply t above Runde their li that it 1 , Mr.w to Ya sold ir could 1 Mr. mean a • duty, Lot of Mr. Dover the sat Mr. Freeh4 preven Bono` having ' with a that it • Bea Mr. leave setters Mr. lag foi Read, The called mi..tes • them . Ma • 1ir..2 a names would *hems. , Tire 1 ties, a Tilt t I thens 1;1040,1 1 1 ins, as Then. The said L d i' . 4 . 1 carries the Sp ;:. Th cd m `ion I head ProP 4 . ( year, ehetp '' ! . to rec Mac ~.' / their roovo Lona, , laith \ 1 '• Ilutit Vii f . . Dili • the li ) for 3 Tr plied milli - 4 11 ' for tl state t i• brow M shoo: be st flow . , what r 4 1 1 for t appl stain , . matt won t. : .Esc.) ''. add. 1 .. Dut ‘ T •surri 1) suffi M 0 , Elsl ~• N que rill] 11 ' . the p . not . goo the •1W tho the alas` thre I le 1 i 1 the i disc 1.5.,u t . tiziu for ~.., 1 i , ...... I \ N ' ; 1 4i ' 4:4 :i: ..../. . . 0 ., . • ~, •••..n.;14,.4i11'5. . . ... .."•-• 1 2 .'. .. 7 i . '' • •. , •..• 1 • • • • tam-. he ▪ net trattate ell a e Tre.w : „ ict a v . e r be dis any 1 sc. • atiern ther • , that c. the .) Wa! 4 thd:, • tc t be, Orturi b • •balte ty or . rable had , • gon C 0111.: . esty ?er ceL l if a , tae the c., c , o f t mug a r.s Alte a tit on ring. , ad' • s/ 3k t_k. r. . t , be a c..se , min r to cir f dui is sp t ,, : rcpt cou ICC by • • •:..:v ;; •: t.O d b • no - •111 his . in a .t h the rte ';ing not do , the ht to to th aric:t of a • ey ds, ii fort.:: .me mom:.:. if h iebt ' ee b. NJ Iron :t ch:ln se. id d be he p:u - .. : d. ' ad be. • a St r bac on it . Cliff! )f 'de hurau •rds s of a proci !rsor.s . e c rid thr men been ple•::t.: she e, it ght , ed e S of 17,6..7. !: • • qui duce - .rd I kmiens Com st4iiation • Spea th 4 cb r.W Treat.: of: a Co I been ..ared lass of ^ . to cm r the Tee:.. ht et that it nig • d to, t Bri isn 1 ign funs m, ter.t Of e st their FN • • ing • out to see im i ns. undi ich he ht m a spec . l $ , alar Tr.: - , as 1 sound n him sei siral just bee: u re el y vote. • fr • ke r Itcp•.r. on :4. - • is Hou Re; - 77! hose it 3,* . • inst; er, ev-G, abs. •ugh r ertcri, r. C • , ng t .11 Li' Ito.:. ?4. woul rtss, wit] mks. .allo :Nov , • influ ire. t. • sby as nt • tine nt me of 2. • gse id 11 .oul • • ale ton bei7rt - • rl3 had th I as a its: d it umt inis.:l . gfu bro.. • • atn I per;. e all it the s he ET e inf so:r • ver ) had , - aint ber : • • en ,i. • last S!7 1. •le d had • romii er..:.lt \lr.