Star. — London, England, 1819-12-09 00:00:00

,in the night time. As Soon as he received ebbe (Mr. Wortley) communicated the, state. a friend of his in York, a Gentleman 'known 1 . pe, sc.ns in that House, as worthy of every. ace, on account of his Character for intelli. activity—he meant Sir F. Wood. At the me that he communicated with this Gentle- I ,e also wrote to the constable, directing him his depositions before Sir F. Wood. The in on having been taken, the latter immediately lied a letter to him (Mr. Wortley), in which ed, that he bad taken the depositions of the' ; already alluded to. He would read the first e of this letter, to the House :•‘‘ My dear I —The drilling at night, at Barnsley, is be ; notorious ; in fact, those who are engaged in rather desirous it should be known, than ise." Sir Francis mentioned, that one part of iesitions was to the following effect:—The de stated, that on the nights of Monday, Tues ii Wednesday, persons, to the amount of 900, issemble4 together in , a field, near Barnsley, ey were drawn up in regular order, and that ad sticks and poles, about eight feet long. The ant did not go to the field on the two last bat that en the night of Monday, being a moon-light night, he distinctly saw, in the field, men armed 'pith poles, and that on the these poles,„lea saw something glistening, a ppeared to him to be like pike-heads. It Ibe remarked here, that the man who made depositions, was a quiet, intelligent man. He •xt to draw the attention of the House to the de m, of another person, whose name, for ob reasons, he would abstain from mentioning.— erson, on the night orfuesday, was returning -seback to Barnsley, and as he was passing a ,ur that town, he thought he saw there a num ' men, marching and exercising. He pulled hose and waited a short time, during which and the words March" and " Halt several repeated. He then rode on to gain a nearer if the field. lie saw a number of men march ight deep, armed with poles eight feet long, istinctly heard the words " Stand at ease"— older and Ground Arms." At this time, one ) men in the field, seeing 'deponent, ran up to ad asked him what he wanted? He rlied by " What the devil 'are you about ? ' Upon the mentan off. The deponent said he was a ay Officer, and that, to the best of his judg , the men in the field might amount to between ty and one hundred. He (Mr. Wortley) had a from this deponent, in which he said, " Since rening of Tuesday, I am informed that drillings eing on ; that they are not confined to Barnsley N vicinity alone, but that they extend also to ,a and several of the neighbouring towns." He low read the papers, and he believed the'House d agree with him, that the practices of training 'lilting were going on to an alarming extent.— bought that the law should be expeditiously .1, and that its provisions should be quite cleat tile subject, as it was impossible-these practices I have any other object than a treasonable one: implored the House to lose no time in passing this and as it had already been thoroughly tonsi -1 and examined in the other House of Farlia 1, no great injury could result from.expedition. b. TIERNEY would assure the House, that no a is tile country was more ready than himself to A forward is opposition to treasonable attempts ; althouo he was most desirous to put &am:those races stated by the Honourable Member to be in a part of the country, he would at the ne time take care that his alarms should not hum to concur in making a precedent highly :,fight with mischief--(Hear, hear). It was to be wired, that the communication just made was not his M tjesty's Government; and, disposed as he icerely was to give implicit confidence to any thing I at fell from his Honourable Friend, he must confess s surprise that this communication had not been ,ado to Government. Again, there WAS another re tarkable fact, that the Lord Lieutenant tithe County York WAS a Member of that House, and yet no ammunication upon the importanasets before that louse had been made to him—.(Hear, hear). He egged to impress on the House the mischief that lost arise from having recorded in the Journals of Et House, that a Bill had passed through its three :ages in oae day. The case of the Habeas Corpus s isipension Bill might be referred to; but in that case :a necessity of expedition was so undeniable, that the mapriety of the Bill being once assumed, there could le no sort of reason for delay. But on the present W agon, whatevil could result from observing the usual and proper interval for passing Bills, except a couple ti days additional training? and he begged to know There would be the harm 'lnd days, additional traal mischief would arise- from lithe Bill? He belted' jettin g to expedition, if it he agreed to pass any Bill cc tile other side, be mar Ptah out that such haste Lord CASTLERVIZ' team which was then in came very naturally from connected with that part carte from. It was to be.. ounication was in the sba!pe make a r, to meet tn m s oi ro e it v o4jcction, he should propota int and second time that committed to-morrow%(this toni , .y for discussing it w r Mr. CUItWEN said, sere incredulous as to the ing was going on iu the he, however, was.only incredi as removed, and he nc line that the fact was as was also ready to scat o that neighboorhood nts` for protection from the ?ractice,--(lfrar). Mr. STUART WOW to state, that he hal e was to be a large tity next, and that it was 1 0 attend that Meeting Lord LOWTHER coild using was going pp. some time to as alarming extent. The -Tpatireettel were regularly organize& - asid carrieduntheir Meet. ings in a systematic manner. It was absoltusly act. cessary that the House *odd adopt some measurmi to counteract these dangerous proceedings—(Hear). The LORD ADVOCATE of SCOTLAND stated that training was going on in Scotland to an alarm.: ing extent—(Heer hear). Sir J. GRAHA M corroborated the statemen training was carried. very far in the. neighboO of Carlisle; but he was also prepared to express his conviction, that it was confined to a comparatively' small body of the County. Generally speaking, the County of Cumberland was loyal to the ling and the Constitution—(Hear, hear). Perhaps the number of the disaffected might amount to four or five hun dred—a number, however, whose dangerous power [he would not think lightly of. In fact, such a.body, with arms in their hands, might destroy the ',wholeA place. He could state, , that they had recently cut 'down young plantations, chiefly for the purpose of l fitting pike heads to the staves which they formed l from the young trees. • Information was also recently given to a Magistrate near Carlisle, by a"blacksmith, that he had received orders to make twelve dozen of pike heads ; and he (Sir J. Graham) was assured, that orders to the same, or to a larger amount, were given to other smiths, who did not inform the Ma gistrates of the circumstance. Every good anbloyal man throughout the Northern Counties, rooked for protection both to khe Ministers and Opposition•T -( Hear, hear). Mr. BROUGHAM said, that as one of those called the Opposition, he was ready to afford the protection sought for, in the way most agreeable to all parties; and he was glad to perceive, that there was no inten -1 tion on the other side of the House, to carry this Bill in such a way as to make it a dangerous precedent. There was no doubt that training, such as the Bill lasught to put an end to, was highly illegal, and he was surprised that the Magistrates did not before in terfere, to prevent these nightly Meetings, at which training was so extensively practised.' It appeared; [ that in several places persons assembled together with clubs and pikes, and went through exercises, with as much confidence, as if they were acting under , tiki's Majesty's commission. There could be no d oub t that such Meetings were illegal; and that as to "their criminality, they were only separated by a very slight shade of difference from the highest crime known to the law, namely, that 'of levying war against the King—(Haar, hear). The Magistrates, therefore, were bound to interfere, and prevent them; first by calling to their. aid the civil force, and if that was insufficient, the yeomanry, and if both these were in adequate, the military. They were bound, not only to put down those Meetings, but also to seize the persons composing such illegal, if not treasonable, Assemblies--(Hear). When he (Mr. Brougham) was in Carlisle, two or three months ago, he heard that training was practised there. What then, he would ask, were the Magistrates doing: since that ,time, that they had brought none of the persons so employed to justice ? If the inhabitants of Cum beiland looked up to the Ministers and Opposition for protectioa;they ought not to pass over their own Magistrates. As to the Bill, ho heartily concurred in it ; he only wished to see its penalties more spe cific ; he hoped that it would be rendered sufficiently severe, and that it would shew the determination of Parliament to punish those persons, who dared to at tempt such crimes— ( Has, hear). L . The ATTORNEY GENERAL, in vindication of the Magistrates, stated, that they did interfere, that several persons were apprehended, and afterwards in dicted, but that they traversed, and thus an opportu nity was lost of making immediate examples—(Hmr, hear). He had no doubt that the persons assembled in these nightly Meetings, for the purpose of mili tary training, were .Yuilty of high treason. But on account of the difficulty of getting proofs, sufficient as establish this charge, it was necessary to indict them only for a misdemeauour—(Hear, hear).— i The difficulty of procuring evidence was rendered greater, because persons who went to witness the pro ceedings of those engaged in.training were maltreated. But he hoped that the alarm which would be nun rally excited, when it should be known how far those dangerous practices were extending, might induct persons, at whatever hazard, to witness them, and bring home the charge against some individuals, that public justice might be satisfied.--(Hear, hear). Lord STANLEY was aware that several persons had been taken lop and indicted, and that they af terwards traversed, but he also knew that several persons had been brought before Magistrates and were afterwards suffered to go away, with merely a warning that they should not offend again. He be lieved that opinions were taken is to the illegality of '• doubt • the sub- t, that . itqloneethen incurred, at a t,ime when waled, • Appose .all the Nines of &rope, under theists •- • • which. now gave an annual charge ef.upwards l of six millions sterling. He lamented the little en couragement given to sailors, and would rather. see them employed, and the. British flag flying in dif ferent parts. of the world, than be compelled to wit ness such an augmentation of our land forces as had lately. taken place. oHe then moved for a Return of she number of Ships and Vessels belonging to the Royal Navy in the years 17910.1792, and 1793 ; and for a similar Return for the years .1817, 1818, and 1819, distinguishing their different rates, and the numbers employed .at sea and laid up in ordinary in each year. He also moved•for Returns of. she to tal charges incurred for building and repairing ships and vessels, and improving . Dock-yards, at the two periods set forth in the Motion, in each year, and the total amount of the charge created in the three years,. 1791,• 1792, and 1793—and also in 1817, 1818, and 1819. He begged to say that he thought the pre sent Motion of the utmost importance, as he be lieved that if the matter was looked into, a consi derable saving in the building of ships might be ef fected by it. . Sir GEORGE COCKBURN feared that apart of the Accounts called for by the Honourable (lentle man could not be correctly made out, but es far as it could be effected it should certainly be done'; and when the Accounts moved for came before the• House, he should be able to prole that nothing hail been called for which was not absolutely necessary. Sit J. YORKE always opposed his Honourable Friend with regret, but if he understood what had passed, the question put by the Honourable Gentle man (Mr. Hume) came to this, whether or not some reduction could be made in the ship-building ex penses? Already we had ships enough to fight the' navies of every country, if they were all opposed to us together, provided we could. man, victual, and store them, and under such circumstances it could not be necessary to build more. If men of war were built so much better than formerly, he would ask, what must be thought of that Government, which had left Sir Robert Sepping, to whom the beneficial change might be ascribed, with a bare Knighthood. but without having been rewarded for what he had• done, by the grant of a single shilling? Sir ISAAC COFFIN defended the late addition to the Marines. He had long served with that corps, and knew them to have rendered the most important services to their country. If it had not been for the integrity and loyalty of this corps, the whole fleet under Lord St. Vincent, at the time of the mutiny, would have been carried into Ireland. It was to the conduct of the Marines alone that, the safety of the fleet, as well as the preservation of the lima of the bfficers, was to be ascribeclA-(ilear, hear ). — Ho had r epeatedly seen them in service, b oth on shore and on board, and never knew aiiinstanee in which they had not manifested great courage, zeal, and loyalty Hear, hear J. —Therefore he maintained, that in adding 1,000 men to the Marines, the House was not turning them into a Standing Army. It was no such thing. Mr. CROKER thought it would have been better for all parties bad the present motion been deferred till the ordinary and extraordinary Estimates bad been laid on the table. Mr. Hume would then have got all the documents he wanted, with the exception of those that were t'o shew what had been expendi ture in 1791, 1792, and 1793, and a motion could have been made for these, instead of the general mo tion now before the House, which would occasion, much arouble, not only in searching for the first mentioned Papers, but in producing those which would have been brought forward if no such motion had been made, and which must' have appeared on the face of the Estimates for the year—(Her, hear). He was glad to have an opportunity of speaking of the case of Sir Robert•Sepping. For that meritori- , ous individual, his gallant Friend could not feel more 'respect than was common to the whole Navy Board. The Admiralty had last year recommended to the Prince Regent the grant of a sum of money in favour of Sir Robert Sepping. This recommendation had been approved of by his Royal Highness, but of course this circumstance could not be expected to reach the ears' of his gallant Friend before the meet.. ing of Parliament. He could, however, assure him, that the subject had never been lost sight of, and a' grant of £5,000 had been resolved upon, in addition to the honour which had been mentioned by his gal lant Friend—( Hear, hear). Sir BYAM MARTIN would take upon himself to say, that when the Papers were produced, the Honour able Gentleman would be found incorrect in all his points. The documents could not be produced with out great difficulty and -labour, but what could be done, should be done. difficulties e • • - • • r:been made, he had only to remark, that Sir iletrett ••SePptng, . with the honour' conferred upon • him, would receive the intainlrtigmt.retaining all the emoluments of his . situatiltn, While.gr. Graham, retiring from ilfhealth, 'received the £B,OOO granted to him in lieu of all the emoluments accruing. to him from the situation be had held. The motion was then agieed to. SEDITIOUS ilitsTlEps rEitvEETIoN BILL. On the motion of Lord Ca/ken:mini, the House lesolv.ed itself into a Committee on the Sedition: • Meetings Prevention Bill. - Lord ALTHORP objected . to that part of the seeelith Clause which went to make a Meeting illegal if a person not resident in the parish remained there after being ()Meted to depart, and hoped anAmend jsent would , be moved. • .. Sir J. MARJORIBANKS suggested aoAmend ein, to make the Meeting illegal if it opposed the removal of the individual ordered to depart. Mr. DENMAN ( Lord MILTON, Lord FOLKSTON!, and Mr. J. P. GRANT, condemned the Clinse as it et . present.steod, and forcibly pointed out the evils, onteptions, and inconsistencies, that might be aspected to arise from it. The Clause was explained and defended by Lord CASTLIEWEA.GH, Mr. L FOS TER, Mr. BATHURST, and the ATTORNEY-GEN/RAI. ; . and. it •was finally amended, after much discussion, so as to make those Meetings, illegal frord which. a person,_ who had no right to be, present,. refined, to ' depart, on being ordered by the Magistrates to retire. Mr. DENMAN moved to insert a provisothat this provision should not extend to County Meetings, and such as were excepted in the first Clause of the Bill. After a few words from Lord CASTLEREAGH, Lord A. HAMILTON Sir J. &WRIGHT, Lord MILTON, Mr. BLLISON, the SOLICITOR GENERAL, Mr. DENMAN, the ATTORNEY GENERAL, and Mr. PRIMROSE, Mr. Denman's proviso was negatived, and the orighial clause war agreed to, as amended, without a division. Mr. J. P. GRANT objected to the clause for dis persing Meetings in case the removal of a stranger should be obstructed. If the Meeting did not ob- - struct the removal, and the resistance should be on the part of the stranger, why should the Assembly be dissolved? Lord CASTLEREAGH and. the SOLICITOR GENERAL contended, that no additional power was given by the clause to Magistrates ; and that it was se.wordesi, that the obstruction must be offered by the Meeting to authorize its dispersion. . • Tile clause was then agreed to. • On the clause for indemnifying Magistrates, in eases where they should have-been compelled to use force to disperse Meetings, Air.DENMAN. wished to know, whether Magis trates were to be protected, in case lives should have been lost, in consequence - of resistance ? If so, this was a new principle, which was not contained even in the Riot Act, for resistance, by that Act, was only made felony without benefit •f Clergy, but did not authorize tlfe destruction of lives. ,The SOLICITOR GENERAL contended, that the principle was sot a new one, and that the existing law allowed Magistrates to employ force in the dispersion of legal Meetings, I Mr. DENMAN begged to deny in toto the law of his Honourable and Learned Friend. The ' existing law gave 'no' power to Magistrates to put down law ful Meetings by force, as it would be prevect by a re- ference to " Hawkins Pleas of the Crown." - Mr. J. P. GRANT had yet to learn t h at any Court of Law had come to a decision on that subject On the contrary, Lord Chief Justice Hale, speaking to that 'question, laid down, that it required the force of an Act of Parliament IQ protect Magistrate. a4ainst the charge of murder, who had acted on the inter petition of his Honourable and Learned Friend (the Solicitor-General). Andras it now to go. to the world, that, whenever any assembly met for public discussion, Magistrates were entitled to let troops of horse loose upon the People ?—(Hear, hiar). He certainly felt warm on the subject, for he had never heard a more monstrous proposition, than that the House should be called upon to legislate that Magis trates should be authorized t• disperse a legal Assem bly by force, and to commit, with impunity, the crime if murder !—(Hear, hear). No lawyer, he was sun a ~. .. ever before expressed such an opinion; and be was'lorry that any thing Which would countenance it *bald now be sent forth to the world. If it was so intended, however, let it be done openly, and let the House at once enact that it was lawful for Ma gistrates to disperse legal assemblies, and that if mire der ensued, they were not to be considered guilty. The SOLICITOR. GENERAL stated, that by the Statute of Henry VII. Magistrates were invested with the same power of dispersing unlawful assemblies as in the case of riots. It was clear, not only that they had, but that they must have, the power of suppress - unlawful Meetinks by other means than the ap _ _ - . - - *1 g? and he begged to Know neveu ina.. ~F . ...-.... ap- m ..- of two days, or two hun- training and that there was much doubt on the sub- done; should be done. . Lining \ seeing that so much ject, though he could not believe that it was not an Mr. HOME said, with respect to the difficulties in unlawful Meetinks by other means than tne 3rn too precipitate a passing offence against the common law. But if the practice t h a t l a y in the way of their production, he thought prehension of offending individuals. For supposing, , to be understood as not or e was not yet illegal, it was fit that it should be ma ce them so trifling, that for £.5 he would' undertake to. as had lately been the case, Public Assemblies to t were necessary; but before so, though the Legislature ought not at the same pay for them hiraself(A laugh).—He would be at consist of 00,000 persons, how could they 'apprehend 11 with the haste proposed tithe to proceed too hastily—{ ace hear). the expense of producing them himself, if the Gen. them all" or disperse them, if they were not allowed tat see the case satisfactorily A short conversation wok place between Mr. Cuts-. demen opposite would a ll ow him access to them., to have recourse t 9 other means? If they could do • IS was necessary. weir, Lord . STANLRY, Mr. S. Woieter, Mr. J. •P. The difficulties started were but the mode in whicfs it by mere apprehension let them first try that ai it Hi thought that the intern- GRANT, Sir C. BWIRRLL, and Lord Foterrost,' au Miuisters thought it expedient to smother inquitt. 1" was fit; but if it did not succeed, they we entitled the possession of the House th?s subject, after which the Training Prevention Mr. CROSER denied that the Accounts could . he tO use the degree of force requisite for the re bject, but m one who was intimately Bill was read a first and second time, and ordered be produced as easily as the Honourable Gentlemln no More, so dint they acted under a very heavy re. irt of the County where it to be committed to-morrow, and to be printed. supposed. Ono Paper it would be very diEfitailt so eponelbility, for if they employed more force than ,observed, too, that the com- On the Notion of Lord CASTLEREADH , the Make out, and he doubted whether it could be cor- Was necessary, they could be called to account forgo Nape of evidence, and ought Seizure of Arms d a re was read a first time, atul or- rectly given at last. Enough, however wOuld be doing before the Tribunals of the country.—The impression on. the House. dered for a secon adiog on Friday nest, and r _produced to prove that the lionourable,Gentlensaln Clause was then agreed to. '' • ' light Honourable Gentleman's be printed. _, was mistaken in all his statements, and that the Ac- •' Oh the Clause fir regulating places there lectures noose that the Bill be read the . •Mr. TIERNEY asked the Noble Lord (Casi . U7 counts were at present kept better, itnd with mote are delivered and debates are held, tat s ight, and that it might be reagh) when it.was intended that theJthird readmit economy than formerly. The ATTORNEY GENERAL said, that liter*? thi &ay), when a full oppot-, ofthe Seditious,Meetings Bill should take, place? Mr. HUMS said, he hid not called for the pod. to shew the , necessity of such a clause, he Amid • could be given to the Hon*. He begged leave.to st4te that he should be' satisfied cflars, but for the total and aggrezate amount. . teed one or two of the questions which had beendis.. ,he was one of those who vridr one fair opportunity of discussing the principle' Sir J. YORE was glad to have received the ils.. coned, for the last three months, at deb= a tt: he fact, that estensive train- of the Bill, and it. might be equally convenient for terniation afforded by - his Honourable .Ftiead '(Mr. in the Metropolis, where , people weer ie neighbourhood of Carlide i the Noble Lord that that shook be on the third reed Poker) : . Without wishing to melte anT,invichisiis paying a, shilling at the door. The first was endtkd ' incredulous until every doubt Mg of it. . . etimparatins, be could not hek_kopp kii*, a. JO_ _lftiech;•sitd consisted of the following sullects s low no longer hesitated to be- After some caAyormeitialetwaint yrrd„Colgt,*•. s hort tune ago the sum of gS,UW Oft , ' ed' Ili: 'Ph . ieli of the three following professions lie a es.stated--tHear, hear, heed). ;Lod and Mr, ,Ttemses .th• ~ .thira_mibag*f .01 . k.Bow-crt.:Migisy**-44:. I ,G a ran.', ~ .. ) iilid gteater tendency to harden theluntauhe i....thie - • on tate, that several individuais Bill wat fixed for Monday putt. , not..tee fitly , the.servicel of aq ' Ylnlindjultal tier, - the Hingwran, or the Paeson - r *Ho nowlooked up . to the How • ROTAL NAWn r . Alining sr , *rnpitiol,.Cohld be compart.l-41tUbosi . trotuild how the question had been decidech... he dangers &inn. from such Mr. MIME moved for p apers Madre. w tips Bt = Wired to tie c.Oun;i7.bi Sii3ob4llt Segllnk, „He i'tili g eitt•i•.-- a "tether Mr. JultiCe 41We! rib edit incurncl in. respect, of„bujltling,".* herd the -cheocellor , at A* ExchequerWwild)AviC .. - _ Wile to tee& the •Scritifinew hiehia tTLEY thought it right ihr. Royal Navy. , The Honourable Merniser entered icife outobos to sabstiteto ZlO,OOO for i t s tbe .- • • 'eti:bii imputed to sitictle risoco 'for • ad received information . tbnt a c omparative statement of the establishment god labsgrunt,i for the latter surn,he thought a '-• ' • - , A;,...., .., to the f-mrthaf it* rappoiM abiludities Meeting at Bnsley ou Moll- expenses of thiS Pepatraent,from t h e ',s ug . • ~, y,ye •• Sir Await.' 1-1 '. d• '')'; `:',. , 'IMO& tie.publiclyexposedr Were as intended byre veral persoips to the present time . •IR 1791 the tiebl ',spatial t.• tau A gettou avammt . . • . *net eticti 'tliseireslent' inost totrinatios; Oita &isms. armed--iffear, hear). I amounted to £4966060,- whereas - at' the roam .. of bod.been •to the &rot, en be piii„dliri . ? ..'ffettia:lenic=ao f t * rh; co in ,assures the liqpipe s .thitt time. it was abve stz 'millions. - •He thoight it Mil .. gas iiiaig sial,iple.,pVllthilitr Sind the, Mk* Dv t itr.ll l4 . ll !Ikt ' ' ''seall,';oll*lte. . a- in ,IMI, neighbourhood fie portant that th e' House . shmtkl bai l Wens thieve& Treasury. with :es pen 4 1 .0 ifmrtailieriku'wtacii &Mils iviaite s a evateuiiiftf: viiiisitaderagr . , , . • •• , . • • A • 11 it t H