Star. — London, England, 1824-03-09 00:00:00

mode of relief to take conaered it to Iwo desir able a it from the rum acfronethe sugar. Mr. BENETT.—Then am to understand that th e l afier is to be empo wered to melte the rum into gin. Tee.' Is - - ?—(A loud laugh). Mr. HUSKISSON disclaimed having said so. fi r . BRIGH T ea; of o p inion that it was not the in. to ot of the West India Prop - tietors, the question should b e pressed further at present. He was not as sanguine i e les expectations with reseect to the future prosperity c tae West India interest as the Right Hollow able Gentlemen (Mr. Haskissoa). That, heweeer, was no To m why he should reject tepartial good. Ilc thoeg ht ; t India produce should be allowed to remain it the eree relative situation to Ireland as it stood last year. To would not say the same with reepect to Scotland, be , :at!.e there the consumption of ruin had greatly di. einOaml. The duties should be so arranged as not to ocinde West India rum from the teareets of Ireland Seetland. In the latter, it was once almost exclu iaely used. People would prefer it tar whiskey if it ould be had as cheap; and he thought it would benefit rte people of Ireland if the use of rum prevailed them place of whiskey. • Mr. F. LEWIS said, the West Lelia interests need ut be alarmed at the change introde - .ed in the distillery aws of Scotland and Ireland, because the consumption of rum was little - in Scotland, and still less in Ireland. The truth was, that the nominal duty of ss. 6d. was ever collected in Ireland. The bona fide duty of 2s. as now collected, would be as large in amount as the' former nominal one of .si. 6J. He rose for the purpose ef guarding against the idea of his being considered approving of the measure of allowing distillation from sugar when barley reached the price at which iniportae Lion was allowed. When difficulties arose, he did not vOll to have them lightened by shifting the burthen , o rely from' one class to another. %%ley not spread over tie whole surface of the community the weight which it was thus proposed to throw on the growers of barley. Would not every gallon of rum sold in this trimmer operate to the prejerece of the barley grower ?—(A cry op , No," from a Aleober on the Upposilion side). It rust have that effect, because the i intim toticet of sot eign boiey was never very great. Whatever the impcntation night be, it must injure the barley growers at homd to be exposed to the competition not only of the foreign sewer, but also of the West India interest. His ideo tee, that it would be better, when the relief of any par ticular interest was proposed, to distribute the but then e'er the whole surface of the community. Mr. H. SUMNER said, he hoped the Hon. Member for Aberdeen would withdraw hls Amendment.. He did not think it could injure the agricultural interests to allow distillation from sugar when barley reached the price at. which foreign corn might be introduced. Eves' trough ;it might lord to some disadvantage, he thought ti e aericultural interest should not hesitate to make some sacrifice, e hen another important public interest vos tc be benefited—(llear). The question appeared to le. whether they would grant an advantage to the fo oien grosser of barley, or to the West India planter? • hr. ROBERTSON said, he did not think the remis s;en ef the duty oe iton ssould be productive of any adeantage to the %Vela India iinerest. Mr. MANNING said, he approved of the proposie Lion fur alloys ing distill Ation from sugar. Nothing seemed to him mote cleat than the justice and propriety of giv ing advantage to the %Vest India planter, in preference to the foreign grasser of barley. All they asked was to be allowed to come into the market when bailey reached the price at which impot tation was allowed. He hid the House would take the subject seriously into their consideration. The West India interests were now in great distress. He knew many instances of estates on which the produce was not sufficient to meet the ex petee of maintaining negroes to raise it. Mr. PLUMMER supported the proposition for al lowing distillation from sugar, when barley reached the importing price. Sir I. COFFIN said the proposed concession on the part of the Administration was very liberal to the West Inch interests. If the Member for Aberdeen pressed the Amendment he should feel it his duty to oppose it. Mr. WHITNIORE said, that the present situation of the Wee India interests induced him to come to the re solutioe of not be inging. forward this Session any Mo tioe relative to East India sugar. All the evils.he pre dieted last year relative to the priiate trade to Itedia had been realised.. Those engaged in it were now im parting hard cola, from the impossibility of obtaining any other return. If this state of things continued the trade could not be carried 'on. Mr. 111.; ME said, the Member for Taunton (Mr. Baring) had oliserved that no other country consumed so much sugar in proportion as England. That might be true, but we-, there any other count' y that consumed so much tea? AP he (Mt. Hume) meant to say was, that the:con sumption did not advance as they had a right to expect. The documents from which he argued came up to the year 189.2, and they differed so widely from the state ments of the Right Honourable Gentleman (Nlr. Hos -1 loon), that the Right llonourable Gentleman must have ' iecluded in his accopnt of consumption the quantity ex rotted. Had the consumption regularly ieci eased with the reduction of price, it should have been much greater. The %Vest India interests were under a delusion if they supposed that the hope of increased consumption held out by the ROA lion. Gentleman would be realised. He thought the West India planters themselves had a right to cell for the reduction of duty which he now proposed. But if they were determined not to relieve themselves, he thought, at least, that the Public had a ll3llt to expect it. Mr. C. GRANT said, that if the productions of the Right liaeourable Gentleman (Mr. Iluelieson) wet s not remised, he hoped the Member for Aberdeen would give the house an opportunity next Session of express tlelr opieiens again on the subject. It they should not Lc tedised, he should be prepared to seypart his eropositi et for reducing the duty. Mr• (iORDON said it must appear extraordinary if i: should go abroad that all those connected weer the West ladia interest in that House should abstain from expressieg any wish to have the duty reduced. Ile thought it tiolit to declare that there had been an un derstanding on this subject between the Government and the West India interest. The Act by which a vit. teal bounty of Ss. per cwt. was allowed on refuted sugars, was to cease un the 4th of July next. It was in effect a bounty, because though sus. was the rear duty Imposed no more than 275. was taken. It was intimated to the West India Body that if they abstained nom sup lafing the proposition of the Member for Aberdeen„ this b misty would not be withdraWo, but that other wise there would be great difficulty in renewing the Act that was to expire Do the 4th of July. It was a matter of some surprise to him why this bounty should be continued to the West India interest, when Ministers professed •to act upon principles hostile to the system of bounties. He did not know v..hither he should sappoit any proposition for the continuance of this bounty be yond the 4th July, because it would be inconsistent with those commercial . rrinciples on which he wished to act. Mr. HUME withdrew hi; amendment.—The resllu tion was then arced to, and the report ordered to be received to•morrow. cusroNts. On the neition of Mr. flebrussov the House went into a Committee on the Customs Acts. The SPEAKER !laving left the Chair, HUSKISSON sail, beat though his Right Ho nourable Friend, 'the Chancellor of the Exchequer, with that perspicuity so peculiarly his own, had, when he hrought for ward his statement relative to the finances of the country, explained the grounds of those altera tions he proposed in the laws affecting the impbrtation of silk, still, in consequence of the objections that had been raised both in and out of doors, and of the great importance of the sulject itself, he tressed, however unable to follow his 'light Ilononrable Friend in clear ness of detail, that the llouse would indulge him while he went into those statements connected with the sub ject. 'ro the geacral plan there were two kinds of ob jection. The first were the objections of those- who thought, that being iu a situation to afford some relief to the country, it I:1101dd , be effected by the removal bf direct taxation. The other class of objec tors were those who wished the laws affecting the bilk trade to remain as they were. With respect to die first class of objections, it did appear to him that the course • pursued by Government was that most conducive to the advancement of the various intro ests of the community. When it was felt, after the close of the war, that they were ina situation to lighten the burthens of the people, they were fist bound to look to those' classes who were more immediately and more deeply affected by the, duties on consumption. It was with this view that the taxes on malt, leather, and salt were . reduced, and though last, not least in operation, that it was pro posed to continue the lottery no longer—Wear, hear). Last year a considerable reduction took place in those direct. taxes affecting the middie and _better classes. Having thus extended relief to neatly the amount of seven millions by the repeal of those taxes, it miga he asked why they did not proceed still further in what appeared to many to be the most desirable plan of re- Het, that Was by-a further reduction of direct taxes? It was said that nothing could be more easy than the adop tion of such a plan, and certainly it coultf . nOt be plea sant to the feelings of those whose duty it,'Was to watch over the public interests to proceed upon principles that might appear incompatible with the wishes of the pub lic. However, when his Majesty's Ministers found that they were in a situation to remit something. more of the burthens of the country, the question arose whether they should not begin to act on principles the justice and po lily of which were generally admittel, and by so acting give increased energy and efFat to industry and cora merce ? The great alterations that were rapidly taking place in the sseneral colonial system of the world, and the new channels which were thereby opened for va rious branches of trade, made it incumbent upon the .Government of this country td consider whether some thing might not be done to secure for it a fair share in the markets that were thrown open to general competition. At this moment the Provinces of South America %Tie still sir uggiing to secure their independence of the mother country, and in an uasettied state as regarded their po litical condition t• but we knew that they never could return to their former state of subjection ; and when we looked at the present condition of the United. States, though possibly the South American Provinces might not possess the same advantages, yet, considering the state of population, the climate, the products, and other natural adv:urages which belonged to those provinces, it was impossible not to hope that under. any system which promised them a fair opportunity and proper facilitie, for the developernent of their resources, ia calculable advantages might be derived from an inter course with them, which would increase with their growing wealth and prosperity. It well becomes the Government of this country, under all ,these circum stances, to inquire whether, there being but a very small amount of excess of revenue which it could re mit consistently with the • princieles of finance which had been sanctioned by Parliament, and upon which the calculations of his Right lion. Friend were founded, it was worth while to forego the advantagei which might he derived from the removal of the checks which fettered an important branch of trade, for the sake *if a trifling remission of taxes?— He must own that until it had been stated in that House that, what he viewed as disadvantageous under which the silk trade was labouring were not so-consi dered by those who were concerned in that trade, and that those •persons who were most immediately inte rested did not wish for any change in the laws affecting the trade, he should have felt exceedingly surprised that any person engaged in that trade should not most anxiously have wished to be relieved from the shackles wherewith it was bound. lie remembered that in the last'Sesson of Parliament almost all the persons engaged in that trade came to the House, amid petitioned to be relieved from the restraints under which they laboured. The Right Honourable Gentleman then m,ead an extract how a Petition presented in the last Session by the Ho nourable Member for the City of London (Mr. T. Wil son) from the silk-manufacturers of the City of London, stating that impertant as the manufacture of silk was acknowledged to be, and greatly improved as it then was, it was still greatly deptesbed, and prevented by the existing laws horn advancing to the height to which it might he carried ; and expressing their confidence that, if the restrictions of which they complained were re moved, it might yet be placed in a state ultimately to triumph 'over . foreign competition, and that silk, like cotton, might be rendered one of the staple manufac tures of the co untry —(I leur, hear). His Right Hon. Friead, therefore, came to the House under the conviction that this trade was greatly depressed by the system under which the duties were collected, and that it ought to be entirely new regulated. He did not think that the manufacture of a raw material imported from a foreign country subject to a heavy duty, carried on at a large advance of capital, and subject to a system of te i .riations restricting the price of labour, was one which could becarried oa to advantage. The lloaour. able Member fur Taunton (Mr. Baring), in spealsing of this subject, had said, that this was not a native .manu facture, and therefore ought not to be encouraged ; in timating that manufactures, like fruits, could only be brown in particular places; and, in the same breath, he had informed them, that in Taunton (the 13.,rough which he represented), the only manufacture carried On at present Was that Of silk, whereas, thirty or forty years ago, the only manufactu re there was woollen, which had now wholly disappeared. He (Mr. Iluskisson) did not Anaw who • tepresentect that *respectable borough forty years ago in that House. It Might be some lead ing merchant, some friend of' free trade, some disciple of Dr. Adam Smith, whose book was published about that peliod ; and if the Chancellor of the Exchequer of that dee had proposed to relieve the cotton manufacure l from restriction s such as those which now clogged the silk trade, he p e mean'swwith other to e" might have objected deft it was not a countries dbl native manufact ure , an d t h a t it would be impossible by any eitto ia b f e n c e a i r g r n ied in ( a t mn arkets s h e tl n c t " ° 1 e n h ) ; have preferred encouraging the manufacture of wool, which was an article of our • native gore th, and he might have appealed, in suppoi t of his argument, to the policy of our ancestors, who compelled even the shroad ot the deiiti to be made of woollen. I: • ortunate'n• for the woollen manufacture of this country, it never labomel under the restrictions to which both the cotton and silk manufactures have been subject. Ile begreei the atten- t tion of the Committee to the progress which had been. made by the cotton manufacture, and from that they nilalit infer the wive:lenge likely to be cheered to. the silk manufacture from being pl iced upon a similar footing. It was perfectly true, that forty leers- ago woollen was the staple manufacture of this country. By•the Custren-home returns, it appeered that ie the year 1780 the whole of the cooon menufactuie of all kinds expoeted anieented to 375,000 t. In the year 1785, which was two years after the return to a seve of peace, when the country no lenge: felt the oppressive operation of the war, the whole export of cotton memo', factures of all kinds amounted to no more than 864 e 0001. while the amount of the wo. , llen m anufacture exported in the same year amnunte,l to nearly four millions; being nearly five to one in tevorir of the native over the foreign raw material. From that time to the present the increase in the expos t of cotton goods had been sur prising. In the year 1822 it amounted to 27,337.0001- being mme than forty times its arneu it forty years ego; whereas the export of woollees ie the same year was only six millioas, being oily onc-fourth of the export of cotton goods. Ilene might be seen an instance of the advantages of freedom of trade, and of the beneficial operation of institutions calculated to give a free direc tion to the employment of capital, and free scope to the industry of the country. Ile had oaly stated the growth of the cotton manufacture as related tA the expo' mid the amounts he had given setc taken from the official returns, which the Committee were a ."are were rather . higher than the actual value in the home market. Ile had however made inquiries, aid. according to the best information he had been able to obtain, he believed he , was not overstating it when Le said that the actual value of the whole cotton manufacture of the country, for eeportetion - and for home consumption, in the List year amounted to thirty-twos . millions. The 'House might ask how the increase of the cotton manufacture applied in argument to the manufacture of silk. . He Believed he might state, that them mufacture oc cotton liroduchig thirty-two millions did not consume five millione of raw material ; the.remainder must there fore be made up of the price of lehane and the profit upon the capital employed. He would ask whether, if the cotton manufacture had remained subject to re,or ic tivelaws such as now operated 'upon the silk manufac ture, the country would have been able to support those • exertions which had enabled it to carry on the late war ? It was only to the increased activity of its industry and trade that the coneo'y could look for any effectual re lieffren taxation and. for resources to carry on any fu• Lure war. The silk trade at present was suffering all the effects naturally produced by monopoly, which was always chillin g ; :led benumbing in its operations. The effect of prohibitory laws was always to destroy compe tition and to. prevent improvement. .Notewere the evils of such a system confine.l to the trade itself. What could be more odious in principle than the laws which were ne cessary to supp wt it? What law could be so incoe genial to the I eeliegs of Englishmen as that which enabled a Cus tom-house ()dicer to eater his house, or detain his cart iage, if he were travelling, to search it for contraband articles? And what cold. be less _desirable than the encourage ment held out to the violation of the laws? The higher orders would have foreign silks if they could get them, and the lower orders naturally would procure them as long as they could find purchasers. He bad heard it said, in allusion et) the Game Laws, " if you will have game, you must have poachers ;". and so it was in this case—if. they would have foreign silks, they must also have smugglers. It had been stated by the n,auufac turers themselves, that any qaantity of prohibited goods could be had in town at a premium of 15 per cent. and yet the same persons, when they heard of a proposal to protect them by an ad valorem duty of 30 per tent. cried out that that was no protection. Two American Gentlemen who were examined before the Lords' Com mittee, on being asked what was the differenc e beteeen silk goods of French manufacture and those of English manufacture, when brought to a competition in the .mar kets, answered, that in some few cases it might be .30 per cent. on black silks in general it was about 20 per cent. and on ribbons . 25 per cent. Mr. Hale, a silk manufacturer, of Spitaltields, stated 'in his evi e'.ente -before the Committee, that " when be was in Paris, certain parties, having no idea that he was a manufacturer, offeied for a premium of 'from 10 - to 20 per cent. to insure the delivery of manufactured silks to any amount is any part of London." Ile also added, that mauj French good: found their way into this country ; but he did not consider that an evil, for there was a disposition in men) , persons to prefer any thing that came from France; and ashen a French article fonitd its way into England, the pattern was im- Inediately Copied ; and where there was one real Fiends article wdrn, there were a thousand English imitations lof the - same pattern. "It was," he also said, " not un common for art English manufacturer tit imitate a French article and send it down to Brighton, where, by means of fish-women and smuggle: e large quantities w ere disposed of at a higher price as . French goods, than they'.woald have fetched as English manufac• tures." Could it theta be contended, when a profit could be derived front such a competition oith French goods, which could be introduced in any quantity at a risk of Ten per Cent. that any evil could', be feared horn a removal of the prohibition, and the substitution of a protecting duty of Thitty per Cent.? He had that morning held a consultation with a elepu tetion from the silk manufacturers of Manchester, who stated that if a iitae time were eiven them to complete their arrangements, hey would not fear competition With France or any other country—(lfate hear). lie was aware that he should be told that the persons en gaged in the trade were alter all the best judges of their own interests. He felt • the greatest deference for the opinions ot those who, from their c,' , nnection with any pat tioeilar branch of trade. and their experience in it, were qualified to speak of that iii which they we:e engaged; but he did riot clink it at all inconsieteut with I a proper degree of 'deference to their judgment in :he. niatter which more particulagle_coneerned then z e to. doubt whether persons so situaiel were theiAlettees of what was beet for the interest's of the puhlicirt.y,estee ral. He had no doubt that what he was ab ea tO erdpose W•onld mates 'ally affect the interests of some individuals.; brokers and deralcee in silk, for instance, would be nf fected,and doubtless would he much More inclined to sue port him in a proposal to augment the prohibitory duty. In all cases where any change was introduced in the commercial regulations of the country, there were inte rests which must be affected ; what was to he consi dered, therefore, was the effect on the interests of the Public generally. He knew that great activity bad been used in promoting a feeling on this tuhject out of doors by those who derived an advantage from the illicit traf fic in prohibited goods; and he feared that when the prohibition was remcved, the fancy for particular, arti cles would he taken away. Those who wereengap,ed in Nosiness with ladies maids, and through them is eh their mistressee formed, he was convinced, not the least important pa*rt of the confederacy. It was contended in all the petitions on this suhject, that more time at lest oueht to be given; to enable these in the trade to guard against the ill consequences of a sadden change. But against delay there Was this argument , that if? the pe riod 'Of the elteratiae.were pensioned the consumer world delay his purchases, in the Voiles of making them with greater advantage at the•expiration of the period. The decrease of sale; which would thus be occasiatred would check the activity of the m:utti frt: e t a re v i e sr,s outad throw a great number of the operative of employ. If it were proposed .graduelly to bring about the alteration, the effect would be the same.— fle coUl l assure the Committee, that his Majesty Ge velum:lt had given their best caxideration to the sub ject,:and the iesult of such censidei that they con,idered it the wisest plan, in order to remove alhdis quietude hem these who laboured ler their daily sub sistence, as well as to render the remie,icel of the duty as effectuel and speedy as possible, that such remission should take place, not from the rich of July n -At, as. was criginally contemplated, but as early as the 25th of the present month—(/year, hear.) —By adoeting this course his Majesty's Government conceived that they should, in a great measure, prevent the stagnation of trade, and while they gave full employment to the labouring artisan, would be affotding to the manufacturer afresh stimulus to extend his speculations. Another difficulty had however suggested- itself, of which he (Mr. Hos kisson) felt the full force. It had been represented, that the measure of his Right Hon. Friend would prove highly injurious to the capitalist who had a large stock of the raw material on hand. His Right Hoe. Friend had , given that subject his fullest consideration : and the result was, that be conceived some arrangement might be made which would prove satisfactory to the parties interested. The arrangement his Right Hoe. Friend proposed was, • that those Who had in their possession any quantity of raw or thrown silk, not in manufacture, might deposit ;he same in warehouses, and receive a drawback upon the duty, which drawback or returned duty should be the difference between the proposed duty of 3d. per lb. with regard to raw, and 7s. 6J. per lb. with regard to thrown silk, and that now paid—(Elear, hcar).--The effect of this arrangement would be, that those engaged in the throwing of silk would not have any motive for suspending their work, when they knew that they could have at any time a remission of the duty ; and thus the trade would experience, as he said before, no Stagnation or remission of its wonted activity. There was no in tention, it was true, of remitting the duty, on the manu factured article; but them it was not considerable in quantity, and if the principle of those. who argued for , a remission of such duty were admitted in the present instance, it would become a very inconvenient prece dent upon future occasions. These would be also • a considerable difficulty in ascertaining' the-amount of. duty -that ought to be taken off'; as, ins consequence of the stagnation of the trade, or from other causes, a con siderable fluctuation had at different times prevailed in the price of the article, and to go into every shop with. a view of finding what its medium price was would .be .endless and impracticable. Ile had now stated ; the ; means by which his Right Hoh.Friend thought he should_ benefit those engaged in the trade, as well as the public at large; and in his views upon that subject he (Mr. Huskisson) most cordially concurred. He would now say a few words as to the operation of this measure, with reference to the throwing of silk. The eff:cts of. that system of monopoly to whi i ch we had hitherto ad hered,- were in that respect most injui ious. It was the cause of our inferiority, both with reference to the silk itself, and to the machinery which we used. But now, that a system of equality was about to be adopted, he had no doubt that the result would be a considerable improvement in the throwing, weaving, and all ttxe other branches of the manufacture. There had been, he was aware, a strong feeling excited as to the dan ger of competition ; and he, Mr. Huskisson, was equally well aware that this danger bad been greatly exagge rated. His Majesty's Government was, however,. wil ling to give every fair consideration, even to feelings of danger, which they were convinced was imaginai y, con sistent with the duty which they owed to themselvei and to the nation at large. Instead therefore of making the termination of the prohibitory duties on the impor tation of silk manufactures contemporaneous with the termination of the dirties themselves, his Right Hon. Friend proposed that the prohibitions should not deter mine until the 26th of July, 1526, a period of nearly two years and a half— (Hear, hear). In thus announc ing the determination to which his Right Hon. Friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had come; he (Mr. 1-luskisson) could not say that it had met leis unqualified approbation. Indeed he thought such a prociastination of the measure as perfectly unaecessery, and weuld have preferred that its operation should commence imme diately, and be tried for one ) ear, when he was con vinced -that its results would prove the great advan tages ta be derived from such a system, But there was something, he owned, due to the feelings of individuals; and the great point being to estahlish certain g; eat prin ciples, it was a matter of comparative indifference whether their application took place immeLle•ely ore es deferred fur a year or two. The period which his /ii, h: Hon. Friend had fixed was less than many of the eeh sons interested require ; but he had theught it bead to extend it, in order to. give an oppo: Lenity to thoeeslie, from honest but mistaken views had expressed their ep positiou to the measure, to reconsider the question; ar.d avail themselves of the interval to make. such improe ments-as would conduce to their prosperity under the new system. He (Mrelliteleissun) repeated his cofisic tion that The results of the Incas's,'c wuuld be found hi g hly beneficial betiewith reference to the e e tchsie.n and itnprovenient of the trade. These were the prin cipal measures whieh he was authorised to lay befeie the Committee, and if he had succeeded in making I 1 .i r