Star. — London, England, 1828-07-15 00:00:00

1 of Union brought into that House in 1822, was prompted by the English party in the Colony. with the favoor and consent of Government. He anfied that blame was justly imputable to thi Colonial Department. He ascribed the discontent of Canada chiefly to the unwillingness of the British part of the population to submit to the French laws. Mr. S. WORTLEY felt it his duty to bear testimony to the fact, .that the general sentiment among the Ca nadians was, that the major part of the blame attached to the Colonial Department. There might be some thing in the irritation subsisting between the parties— there might be something in the faults inherent in the system of Government of this Colony ; but be the blame divided as it might be, it was his opinion, and he was sure those who had heard the inquiry above stairs would agree with him, that a large proportion of the blame attached justly to the Colonial Office. Mr. F. LEWIS maintained that the evils of Canada arose prirkcipally from.a &maid; mistake on the part of the French Colonists as to their position. The Bri tish settlers would not submit to their laws and institu tions. The only effectual remedy would be, to give them the benefit of the laws to Which they had been accustomed, though he was aware that whenever an attempt was made to carry that object into effect, the Canadians would resist it. Mr. Secretary PEEL thought it not quite fair, while the inquiry was not yet complete, and the Report of the Committee rot before the House, to cast general reflec tions on the conduct of the Colonial Government. Mr. LABOUCHERE felt that he should ill repre sent those who had entrusted him with their Petition if he did not disclaim any intention of indulging in cri , urination. Sir J. MACINTOSH denied the correctness of the* statement of the Hon. Member for Worcester. There might have been some speciousness in it, if the differ. ences had been between the Government and the Eng lish population; but it was the French and not the English colonists who were discontented. The Petition was that ordered to be referred to the Select Committee. STATE OF IRELAND. • Lord JOHN RUSSELL rose to state, with refer ence to his notice, which stood on the Orders for Thursday, that knowing the great difficulty. at this late period of the Session, of procuring such a lull attendance of Members as the great importance of the subject required, and being likewise persuaded that the actual advisers of the Crown and those in high stations could not be insensible of the awful re sponsibility which the present state of Ireland imposed en them, he felt inclined, on the whole, to leave the question to that responsibility, and therefore he should withdraw the notice. CUSTOMS' BILL. Oa the motion of Mr. Comics:tar, the further consideration of the Report of the Customs Bill was resumed. Mr. FYLER complained of the change that had been made in this Bill to the injury of the Silk Trade, by substituting the odes /wan duty of thirty per cent. for the rated scale now in use. This was peculiarly unfair after the declaration of the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Vice-President of the Board of Trade, and more especially as no notice had been given to the Manu facturers of Macciesield and SpitalSelds, who justly felt aggrieved. Mt. COURTENAY moved that the Amendments be agreed to. Mr. FYLER moved, that the words—" As herein after ex opted " stand part of the clause. Sir. W. WYNN did not china the proposed alteration could be I made without re-committing the BilL It was a delicate question, however, and required consideration. The CHA NCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER objected to a change its the present charge of duty. The SPEAKER observed, that if the proposed Amendment went to alter the rate of duty, it could not be made without re committing the Bill. After a kw words from Mr. T. P. COUILTIMAT. the Brasses (who was so hoarse as to be scarcely audible in the Gallery), Mr. C. GLANT, and the Cumoccu.oaof the EXCIIIIQCZ/Lr Mr. P. THOMSON entered into a calculation, showing that the rateable duty imposed on East India Silks amounted, on an average, to from 50.. to 555. per cent. Mr. BRIGHT thought it would be best to re-commit the Bill, as he thought the silk traders in this country had been taken by sorgese by the recently proposed measure. SPEAKER again observed, that if the proposed alteration did not affect the lettax of the law, and only applied to the Beaus floss of the market, then it might be proposed ; if not, it would be necessary to re-commit the clause. Mr. Secretary PEEL thought, that if any doubt existed en the point, the safest course would be to recommit the dm. Mr. YLER moved that the clause be re-committed. The SPEAKER put the question. lir. W. W. WYN N wished to know, whether the clause itself, or the whole Bill, was to be re-committed? The SPEAKER said, the clause only. Mr. HUSKISSON observed, chat when it was pro posed to impose an ad valorem. duty on East India silks, they were told that it Would be difficult to fix that duty, owing to the ignorance of those by whom the value of the article was to be ascertained. It was then deter mined to adopt a rate of duty founded as nearly as pos sible on the scale cf 30 per cent. and this experiment was to be continued fur two years; at the expiration i f which, in October this year, the ad valorem duty of 30 per cent. was to be again imposed. Alterations having, however, taken place, it was determined to continue the rate of nuty for another year; and under this pledge, no doubt, considerable orders had been sent out, which, considering the di-tance, must be productive of great injuries to the parties, if that understanding were not to be verified. He begged to caution the Right Honethe Vice President of the Board of Trade against allowing himself to be persuaded by certain branches of trade; it he did this, lie would never be able to carry any great measure, a' he would be continually requested to open all other branches as freely as possible, but to give the particular applicant a decided monopoly—(Heat). Mr. T. P. COURTENAY assured his Right Hon. Friend that nothing was more distant from his thoughts than a desire to depart from the system adopted by his Right Hnn. Friend. But he certainly was anxious to re-commit this clause of the Bill on the grounds stated by his Hon. Friend. _ . - • Mr. C. GRANT explained. Mr. BRIGHT thought that as the silk trade bad been assured tbat no alteration was to take place this year, piddle taith mien to be kept with dam. Mr. ROBINSON said be should tote for the re-commitotowt of the clause. Mr. R. GRANT observed, that the pledge alluded to by the Hon. Member was given by ibe Act of fa t liament passed in 1826. He always fek the greatest indignation at the legislation which was adopted towards India—and it would not requite, in his opinion, a 'mil% case to be made out to induce him to support any mea sure for the relief of India. The House 'ben divided— Noes A7c. Majority The Bill was then re-committed. 34 - 37 -3 r, was Mr. FERGUSON, on our fettrfitall the gallery. addressing the House on the hero duties 61111pobed in India on the English and totelsti liods,* contended that whatever advantage tetra) Niue to the be nefit and relief of India* dlorimerchiegh be readily conferred. He cons that the - Ved a on silks imported from India . to take place, ably to t h e pledge which had given, to thine /in cent. Parliament was pledge*, indeed, to permit the Bill 'to expire in October, 16285 i) Yen large orders were given as the assurance that the stet would expne in October, .1828, and that the duty of thirty per cen t . would acme into force. He thought it unfai r to disappoint those expecta tions which had been held out. . : M . r. F YL E thatß siatidw,atshat evenhandedo!e of t h the characteristics a chteer thought isti s of sW w as , at even-handedthateqauierdedinthe ilk s trade should the interests of those a t h o whoja i c wsetree required attended to, as well as the int erests of those abroad. The Hon. Member concluded by moving a clause, the object of which was , 'that th e Act relating to the duty o n silk should continue in force for another year. Mr. HUSKISSON said, that this was not the first time he had to contend with a Member for Coventry (Mr. Fyler is one of the Members for that city) on the subject of the Silk Duties. I,n 1826 he had to contend with a predecessor (Mr. E. Ellice) of the Honourable Member. At that period he thought there was a clear and distinct understanding of the maximum duty at which silk should be impOrted at the expiration of this year. He thought there. had been an error in the delay, and certainly that error should not be made to operate as an injustice to the Indians. This pledge had been made not by any individual member of Government merely, but it had been made by Parliament itself. It was made upon the understanding on which the mea sure of 1826 had passed ; and he called upon those who supported him then to support now the pledge which had been given as to the relaxation of the duty at the close of the year 18'28. Mr. Secretary PEEL said, he had no doubt as to the principle of the measure. He was not aware that a pledge had been given by either of hi, Right Honour able Friends (Messrs. Huskisson and Grant) who had been Members of a former Administration, gnat this law should certainly expire at the close of the present year. He was sure his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Conitenay), was not aware of any such pledge having been given, or he would not have made the declaration which he had done to the Deputation which had waited upon him —that there was no intention this year of making any alteration in the silk duties. As, therefore, the case of those who were deeply interested in the silk trade had not been heard, he thought the present law might, without much inconvenience, be continued tor another year. Many persons, largely engaged in thii line of business, had left town with the impression that no change would take place this year. Under these cir cumstances, although he would not say that any change would be effected in his mind by any argument, or representations which these Gentlemen might make, for he thought that experience and facts were in favour of the soundness of the commercial principles that had been adopted, yet he was nevertheless of opinion, that all the parties should be fully and fairly heard before any law was per Manently adopted. Mr. TRANT said a few words in support of giving India the benefit of the reduced duty which had been premised to her. Mr. ROBINSON explained. He said that he pre ferred the declaritions made by the present Vice Presi dent of the Board of Trade•to those who had previously presided over that Board, because the declarations of the former were made openly in the House, whereas those of the latter were made privately to persons out of Parliament. It had been said, that the Bill in its present proposed shape had gone out to India; which showed that there was no disposition to give encdut age ment to commercial speculation. Mr. CHARLES GRANT said, that a general ex pectation had been held out and entertained that the present Act would expire in October, 1828, and that the duty of 30 per cent. would be substituted for It.— This expectation should not be disappointed—(Hear). He -was somewhat surprised to hear his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Peel) say, that it was requisite that the parties should be heard, and that a full investigation shcu'd take place to determine what principles should be adopted. He would ask, had not such an investiga tion been gone through ?—(Hear). And were not the principles which had been adopted by the House, the result of the fullest investigation and the amplest dis cussion?.--(Cries of hear, hear). A distinct understanding and pledge was given by the House that at the expira tion of the present Act, in 1828, a duty of 30 per cent. should be substituted ; and heapprehended great incon venience would arise, and great alarm be created, if technical objections were permitted to interfere with and to defeat a pledge given in such a manner. He could state that a short time previous to his leaving office, there was no expectation entertained among those engaged in the silk trade in this country that there would be any departure from the plan which had been laid down, and those persons were apprized and aware that the change•which had been resolved upon in 1826; would be carried into effect for the establishment of the duty of 30 per cent. . • • Mr. Secretary PEEL said, that he did not require, as his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. C. Grant) supposed, an inquiry to satisfy him as to the principles of commer. cial policy to be adopted by this country. Indeed, he had distinctly declared that he did not. But what he said was, that as his Right Honourable Friend (Mr. Courtenay) had declared to persons deeply engaged in the silk trade, that there was no intention of making any change this year; as his Right Hon. Friend was not aware of any pledges having been given by his Right Hon. Friends upon the subject; and as, in consequence of these circumstances, the representations of these per sons had not been entered int.), he thought that the present Act might be continued for another year, and, on this ground, he would vote in support of the clause of the Honourable Member (Mr. Fyler). , Mr. P. THOMSON said, this was a question in volving injustice to two parties.--to our manufacturers at home, and to the Indians. The proportions of the' magnitude of the injustice became thee the subject of consideration; and in this view the injustice to the Indians was incomparably the greater. The Indians' had obtained a pledge, and it appeared by the acc••unt of the large commercial orders that had been recently' given, that the-Indians had acted in the confidence and on the faith that that pledge would be fulfilled.. But what hod been the inconvenience to the manufacturers here' His Right Honourable Friend (Mr. C. Grant) had awed thetionae, that but a short time before his leaving office...sheet three weeks ago—the manufac , utrers ere fully in expectation that the change, as in. tended jp 1826, would be carried into effect. What new spelliiitiOPS could they have entered into since that time 7 Wbat silk could they have put on their looms? What losses could they have sustained ? These, surely, must be very inconsiderable, compared with the great and positive hardships which muse be endured by the Indians, who had mateived a pledge of two years stand mg, on the faith of which they relied, upon which they acted, and entered into important. and extensive com mercial engageatents. What would be the consequence le th e Indi a ns of a violation of the Act ? It was well *own that large shipments of silk had been made in India on the faith of the Act. The consequence of the I mposed measure would be to injure the revenue ; for it would give a premium upon the smuggling of Ban shees. It would take money out of the pockets of the Lathan trader, and put it into the pockets of the smug slim When it was recollected how large-a quantity of English produce and manufactures went to India; when it was recollected that India received exports from this country .to the annual amount of five millions. she was surely entitled to be treated by us with at least common jissi ice. r.A TTWOOD acknowledged th at if there was, not even a pledge. but merely an understanding in an Act of Parliament, that it ought to be binding on the Le gislature; but he really could not perceive that that was the case in the present instance. The Act s:ated that such and such. duties sl . ould be imposed during the pleasure of Parliament." With respect to any un derstanding or contract that might have been made with the parties interested.' with that the House had nothing_ so do. . . Mr. HUSKISSON, in explanation, stated that the enderstarkiing to which he had alluded, was the under standing of the Act of Parliament. In consequence of a Resolution of the House, a sill was brought in in 1824, imposing an ad valorem duty of thirty per cent. on the admission of all foreign silks• It being Coaught, however, that the Custom-house officers were not suf ficiently aware of the value of the respective articles to impose the proper duty, a temporary Act was intro duced, imposing a rateage duty; it being, however, distinctly understood by the parties interested, that Par liament did not mean knowingly or willingly that that duty should exceed the duty originally imposed of SO per cent. Mr. ATTWOOD proceeded, and insisted that Par liament knew nothing of understandings or contracts, and must be determined in their proceedings solely with a view to what, under existing circumstances, it was most fitting to do. He regretted that injury should he inflicted on any party by the course which he recom mended; hat although it might be injury, it certainly ,would not be injustice; whereas, after the pledge that had been recently given by the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, great injustice would be inflicted by a contrary proceeding. •ll'lr. HUSKISSON repeated his explanation, express log his regret that he should be obliged to detain the ,House on a point which he was sure no one could pos sibly mistake but the Honourable Gentleman. Mr. FERGUSON insisted that the original Act of Parliament was a pledge the duty should not be more 'than thirty per cent. I'o continue the temporary Act 'by which that intended duty was rendered so much 'higher, would be a gross injustice to the India trader. Sir J. MACINTOSH was quite of opinion with the Hon. Member for Callington, that a pledge given by lIP y Mcmber of his Majest►'s Government was of no value in that House ; and he was therefore much sur prised to hear that Hon. Member place the measure which he recommended on the ground of a pledge re cently given by the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite. The principle cm which he (Sir J. Macintosh) considered himself bound to proceed war, the obvious intention of the Legislature. Rejecting ail personal pledges, what he had to inquire was the just construction to which the two Acts of Parliament in question were liable. Hon. Members had talked of surprise! Why, here, at en advanced period of the Session, was this attempt made to hurry the House by surprise into the relin quishment of principles which had been established for five or six years. The measure under discussion was not an isolated measure; it was part of a general sys tem which had prevailed from the year 1824 down to Friday last. What was that measure? The original object of the Legislature was to impose a duty of SO - per cent. instead of a prohibition ; but as the Custom House officers were not sufficiently conversant with the 'snide: in question to levy that duty, the Legislature passed an experimental Act, bearing on its forehead the marks of its being but a temporary measure, by' which it was intended to impose a rateable duty equi valent wan ad valorem duty of SO per cent? How then could any man assert tbat it was in the contem plation of the Legislature, by the latter measure, to im pose an ad valorer duty of 65 per cent ? And yet such was the practical effect of that measure, which it was now proposed to continue for another year. If.the ciatrse remained as it . was, the Committee would give effect to the real intention of the Act of Parliament. If they altered it as was proposed, they would impose a rate of duty more than double that which the Act of Parliament intended to impose. It appeared, therefore, to him to be the simplest and clearest question possible. Indeed, he observed that the Right Honourable the I Secretary of State hr the Home Department felt the general principle of the question press so strongly upon him, that he was obliged to take refuge in the personal pledge of the Vice President of the Board of Trade ; for the Right Honourable Gentleman avowed his ad herence to those just and liberal principles of commer cial policy which, when all memory of the present disputes had pissed awar, would immortalize the Pre sidents of the Board of Trade by whom they had been introduced. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER de fended his Right Hon. Friend near him from the charge of having suddenly and surreptitiously brought forward the present proposition. Orr the 17th of June, the House had come to a Resolution► that it was expedient that the Act which was about to , expire should be continued.— , With respect to any expectations that might have been entertained on the subject, it was desirable that the Com mittee should take a correct view of what was the state of the law respecting it. It was true, that in 1824 an Act of Parliament was passed, subjecting foreign silks to an ad valorem duty of 30 per cent.. to commence i 0 July, MN; bat that Act never came into actual opera. lion; an Act imposing a rateage duty was substituted `for it. What pledge, therefore, had Parliament given upon the subject? He knew very well that the alter* tion had been made because a difficulty was found in estimating the value of the articles on which the duty was to be imposed. If the Act imposing a rateage duty were to be allowed to expire, that difficulty would• be suddenly revived. In order to give time to consider. whether they should revert to, the system that had been found so difficult of execution, or construct a new icale cf rateage duties, it was deemed expedient that no alteration should take place until the next Session of Parliament; but that the Bill about to , expire should be continued. He was not disposed to support any measure continuing a higher duty on the manufactures of India than the Legislature had origi. pally in contemplation; but he felt that, as it had been intimated to the parties interested, that in consequence' of the difficulties of the subject, no change would take place in the present Session ; and as, in consequence they bad absented themselves when they were, no doubt, pre pared to establish their grcunds of objection by proof, he thought himself bound to vote for the Amendment al the Hon. Member for Coventry. Mr. COUNITIMAY and Sir JAW= MACINTOIK mutually explained. A division then took place. •The numbers were— For the Amendment : . . . . 47 Against it • . • es . 35 Majority . • -12 On racntering the gallery we found Mr. GRANT mowing an Amendment to the Clause that the existing scale continue to the Seth October, 1829, that it should continue only to the nest Ste uots of Parliament. ika Anasadmeat was put and carried without a &claim. The I House rammed, sod the Repots was ordered to be received :a. morrow. STYPERANNVATIbt. AGLOWAIICI BILL. ,The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved theOrdet of the Day for the second reading of the Superannuation Allowance 11111—The Order of the Day having been read, Mr. H. GURNEY rose to present a Petition against it from the Clerks of Public Offices, and said, that the parties interested in this measure complained that it was something like a breach of contract, and that its effezt would be to injure th-ns "%sty materially. The principle of a superannuation allowance to the civil set vents of the country had the recommendation of many Committees of that House, from the year 1786 down to 1822. He thought it would not become the character of that House or of the Government to pass such a measure as this without due consideration. The recommendatioh of the Finance Committee, he was sorry to say, as far as they had gone, went rather to take away the reasonable emoluments of those who laboured most industriousle for the public, than to strike at those larger sources irons which alone any substantial saving could be effecteJ...... He trusted the Rouse would rut, for the sake of a poor and pitiful saving, agree to this harsh denial of justice towards a class who Bare their best exertions to the set: vice of the country. Regretting that the Petition had not been placed in abler hands, he moved that it be brought up. • The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER withdrew the Order of the Day; to enable the Petition to be printed. The Petition bavidg been read, Sir HENRY HARDINGE•sIid he had a similar pe. tition to present from the Clerks of the Ordnance Office in the Tower Department. The Right Hon.Gentlernan declared that he• felt particular pleasure in presetting this petition, as he could bear testimony to the cheer fulness with which the petitioners had borne former reductions of income, in common with other' r irate ser vants, and as he could state of them, that he thought he was now doing but an act of justice tb mbst able, most trustworthy, and roost excellent public officers. Mr. F. BUXTON, in presenting a similar Petition from the Excise , protested that he concurred with those who thought the clef ics•in public offiees had great reason to complain of this measure. The 11 nourahk Gentleman proceeded to comment on the vkciliating sort of legislat on which had passed in respect of this plan of super animation,. in 1814, 1822, and 1824. These Petitioners, prior to 1814, had raised a superarnitratioa fund among themselve., whichamounted td nn less than 72,0001. which was intended as provision for old age, accident, ice. and over which, as their own money, and absolutely subscribed by them, Parliament had in reality no legal tide whatever—no legal power ut controul—(Hear,•hear).. But when the first soprran. nuation plan was determined on,' Mr. Perceval said fatly enough, perhaps—" As you are to have the be. aefit of the Superannuation Act without couttibuvrg towards the necessary capital, you shall give up this 72,0001." which was accordingly transferred to the public funds. Now he (Mr. Buxton) did not complain niche transfer; but he meant to contend, that befote Parliament could pass the present Bill, they mint first uf all replace to these petitioners their own original fund of 72,000/.—.in the next place, all the accumula. tions, with interest, of fourteen subsequent years, which would amount to somewhere above 200,0001..--(Hear). And if this was so with the Excise and Customs ofh ces, let it be remembered that there were many others entitled, under similar circumstances, to be considered. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER then moved the Order of the Day for the second reading of the Superannuation Allowances Bill. On the question of the second reading, Colonel SIB , THORP rose to present a Petition from the Clerics of the Hackney Coach-office, io a similar effect with the preceding petitions. He hoped that no objections which might be occasionally taken to the vehicles of which this office had the superintendence, would be allowed to operate to the prejudice of the respectable and men torious Petitioners, to whom the public was really much indebted. Mr. TRANT was decidedly opposed to the inequi• table principle of this measure. Mr. HART DAVIS quoted a passage from that great reformer, Mr. Burke, in which he expressed himself most adverse to the imposition of a tax upon the in comes of parties in the situation of these petitioners.— The measure could only be considered as one for the reduction of salaries in the shape of an income tax, and he (Mr. H. Davis) considered it object onable in every point of view, and sincerely regretted that it should ever have been brought forward by the Finance Committee. Sir R. WILSON felt it necessary strongly to oppo.e this Bill, although it came recommended by the Finance Committee. He had no objection to its principle but this—that he thought it ought to have been ptospect,ve. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER re gretted that he had been placed in the painful situa tion of being under the necessity of bringing forward the present measure. No duty had ever occasioned him mote pain, nor would he have been induced to take it upon himself, but that the House having appcinted a Committee for the revision of every branch of the pub lic expenditure, and that Committee having mom mended the introduction of such a measure, and en trusted him (Mr. Goulburn) with the task of submitting . it to Parliament, he should have felt it an act of moral cowardice to shrink from the responsibility of doing su.or of vindicating the motives which lia I led to its ptepata tioa.Though the measure might lint ba arictly iu acc )td anFe with any individual feelings of his owl), the fieuse must, in justice, recollect the situat on in which the nonce Committee had been placed. In looking at thev e ral expenses of thecountry tie °pin &pal brancrescf ex penditure presented them-elves to their consideration — the effective and the ineffective. They found that the to tal charge for the effective, including those departmeen, civil and military, which related to t'-e defence G t Ole country, civil services of all kinds, and so forth, was about twecty- one millions a year ; anJ that of ibis enormous sum no less than five millions was Allister' aced to retired acd superannuation allow aaces, some sort or other, in all those vat ious departments. They were anxiou-, under these circumstances, to pope e some measure which might gradually effect a pro•prc• rive reduction in a charge for these particular objects , which bore so large a proportion 1., the total a mount .of the effective. In looking at the details of the coil service, they found that upon an expenditure of foie million pounds, the superannuation charge anioucted to nearly 500,0001. that this 500,0001. had iticiea-ed l o that sum in six years, from little more than half the amount; and they immediately perceived the absolute necessity of devising measures to check for the future the alarming tendency to increase, in a charge of such a magnitude—(Hear, hear). Their determination ba lanced long as to the mode of doing this, between a re duction of salary and a deduction for superani Llama. He certainly had always professed himself decidedly hostile to the former. From his own long habits of OP cial life, he had been in almost constant intercourse with all the petitioners now before the House, and could safely declare, that no occasion to serve them could present itself, of which he should not feel it a solenfa duty to avail hirnself—(Hear. hear). He readily ad' mated the iveigh tof that case 914135 Excise Office which I st