Star. — London, England, 1802-06-24 00:00:00

P.lOll 4MBNTART PROCEEDINGS. HOUSE Of I.ORDS, WEDNEciDAY, JUNE 2.1. Ceurifil were heard in cantin.latiw , •ri •1, Scotch An;law. .:d othtrs v. the T h• m cic h i nt h?" 1 '" 1 kri.itO, la;iisburgh, &c. lutthcr Lrair.g was to-atorrow. INDIA. Lord So rrot R rofe t.. make the motion r.f which be had nenice, relative to the affa4s of the India Coroptny, and lefort Le did fo, laid he fhould make a few e.hfervatinus on the conduel they bad purtoed toward, lonic of the powers of that country. IIi; Lordihip then took notice of the ocenpali..n, on the part of the Company, of the kingdom of Arcct, the. Princes of which country had always (hewn the molt faithful and friendly attachment to the iraerefts of Great Britain, and On that account the cond& of thole who had lately removed the young Nabob from the throne of his , anceffors was hi g hly r,prehenfible ; at !call, it ap- ! Feared lo fr.)m every circumstance that had as )et come to the knowledge of people in this country. A Noble Lord (Moira) had given notice of his in tent:on to bring forward a motion relative to this tranfadion. It was much to be regretted that the I waht of fufficient documents had prevented teat butintit from being ,liicutred during the prefent he caufe it was rf the utmost importance that the public lanuld be fati:fied cancernings it.— i The imprefi:on which noav relied on men's minds was, that the India Company did exclude a Princel from the thron, to which lie was entitled by birth, and take ponflion of his territories, and this with out any colour of right or jullice. Another part of the conduit of the Government of India, which' he hoped would be enquired into, was, the taking polfeftion of one-third of the territory of Onde ; a coin.try that farmed a harrier between the Britifh poirefflons and ether nations that would have been hostile to us, and the Nabob of which had been the faithful ally of the India Company. The very Centleman whom he charged with being the au thor of a great part of the difficulties of the Com pany, exprefsly difapproved of this fpirit for con (pelt, and extenfion of territory. His Lordfhip then quoted fome palfages from letters written by Mr. Dundas, in which he declared it as his opinion that conqueßs ar.d extenfion of territory were in• jurious to the iaterefts of the Company. His Lord !hip among other things obferved, that when Mar quis Cornwallis led his vidotious army up to the walls of Set'ngapatam, he, like a wife Statelnian, flopped Ilion, and permitted the power he was con tending againft Rill to furvive ; but when, under the dire.ftion of the prefent Governor General, that power was exterminated, the affairs of the Com pany became expofed to alarm and danger. His Lordlbip next adverted to the debts of the Corn. pany, which, he laid, amounted to twenty-two millions. An expence of about four millions mu ft have been incurred in fending an army from India to Egypt, which money, he fuppofed, Government mull advance, as the Company were unable to pay it, and it would he added to the debt of twenty two millions, making the whole amount to about twenty-fix. He contended that the affairs of the Company were net, as had frequently been Rated, in that profperous fituation which could firpport such an enormous debt asthis,andtheaccumulation of it he, in a great degree, attributed to the late Prefident of the Board of Controul,who had canted the Company to increase its capital. There was no chance of this debt being liquidated ; but on the contrary, it was likely to continue encreafisig until it would terminate in the ruin of the Com pany. There was another circumstance he had to notice, which was, that no India Budget had been brought forward lately ; no accounts concerning the Rate of affairs in that country had been laid before Parliament. The flatements concerning the profperity of India, which the late Prefident of the Board of Controul ufed to make fo frequently in Parliament, were very far from the adual Rate of the Company's affairs. After fome further °bier vations, his Lordfnip concluded with moving for " an account of the amount of the debts due by the Lai India Company ; and alfo for an account of the flock and afros of the Company. The Earl of DARTMOUTH, in anfwer to what had fallen from the Noble Earl who had jail fat down, first oblerved, that he law no objection to the produdion of theft accounts called for. He faid, it would be unnecefrary for him to take up the time of the Houfe in following the Noble Earl; much of what be faid being irrelevant to his main or regular objea of difcufron, or intended for fu ture difcuflion ; in the courfe of which he doubted not, that the expeded information would evince, that the Noble Lords entrufted with the Govern ment of India, and whole meafures on thofe cc cations were arraigned by the Noble Earl, had a&- ed upon principles of found policy and juftice. His Lordfltip then entered into a detfailed flatement of Tome length, relative to the provincial affairs of India, and which were drawn from official docu ments and extracts, which he regularly referred to as he proceeded, and the refult of which he was confident mull do away the unfavourable impref lions received by the Noble Earl, and thew that the debts of India by no means amounted to what the Noble Earl had Rated, or that its financial concerns were in fuel' a Rate as he teemed to ima gine : to follow the Noble Earl at the head of the Adminifiration of India, in his financial Rate ments, would be impollible ; the result was to the above general effect. He Rated the progreflive in,:reafe of the debts of India from 1786 to rflot, and dared there under the different heads to which they appertained, of Foreign Bills, Inveft. ments, AlTets, &c. and calculated that the whole did not exceed .8,637,0°01. as Rated in the of ficial documents before the Houle. He contend. ed that the debt was not incurred by the expences of the war in the degree the Noble Earl teemed to imagine. With refpe& to the increafed charge for the Troops to the Government of Oude, they were Rationed parfuant to the provilions of the treaty for the defence of that country, and circumftances requiring an increafed number of troops in that quarter, a proportionate charge of courfe took place. He contended that the Rate of Iladia was of late very much improved, particu . any ofieesnat ar titront anion of thl - iyilettil f Englith jurifprudence, and the benign influence of our laws into that country. The refources of India were in a flourishing Slate, and her debts would be put into a train of expeditious Belinda thin, one ingredient in which undoubtedly is a fyllem of aria economy, and alto a reduetion of the Military Eltabliffiments of India. A great deal in the way cf liquidation would be effeEted, by transferring the debts of that country through the medium of Commerce to Leadenhall- Street.-- After expatiating for tome time on the refult of his financial Ilatements, which were to the effect above mentioned, the Noble Earl concluded by repeating he had no objeftion to the motion. The Earl of Burrow: laid a few words in ex planation, and adverted to the advantages the No ble Earl at the head of the Board ofControulhad in recurring to official documents : it was impof iible for him to refer to papers which be had not leen ; he had no doubt of the flatements being cor reCt, and he expreffed his fatisfaaion at hearing that the Military Ettablithments of India were in tended to he reduced. The queflion was then put, and the accounts were ordered to be produced accordingly. ILLEGAL GAMBLING. On the order of the day fin the third reading ofl the Bill to prevent the game of Little Goes, and other games, Lord HOLLAND renewed the objellion he had on a former day made to it. Ile °Wetted to the Bill, becaufe it related to a low frivolous fobjea, unworthy the notice of Parliament; becaufe it would fubjeft perfons committing a very trifling offence, to very fevere penalties ; /and becaufe it would not remove the evil it went to remedy.— The great mifchief of Bills of this kind was, that they went to multiply the bufinefs of legiflation beyond meafttre, and would make it necefrary to have a fpecifie Ad for every particular 'pecks of offence : and new offences would then be adopted with a degree of ingenuity much greater than any which parchment could exercife in fuppreffing them. This kind of legiflation put him in mind of a Rory he had heard of Sir Ifaac Newton, who was frequently vifited in his chamber by a favourite cat, that ufed to come in and go out through a 11:41e in the door, large enough for it to pats through : the cat happened to have a kitten ; and this great man, who, in other refpeCts, law every part of his fuhjell, thought it neceffary to make another hole of left dimenfions, for the kitten to pals through. If laws were to be properly and jufily executed, they fhould be as general as the nature of the fubjedt would admit; and laws fhould not be made on every new occafion that might arife. If fuch a praetice was purfued in legiflation, the ingenuity of thofe againft whom the laws were direEted, would foon out-run that of the Legifla ture, and all their attempts to put a flop to of fences would be fruiticfs. He would not pretend to deny,but that a very mifchievousand deftruCtive fpecies of gambling was carried on under the name of Little Goes. But what he contended for was, that a Bill of this kind would not anfwer the purpofe of fitpprefling them. The great offenders would evade it, by finding out Tome other mode of gaming; while boys, who played for ginger , bread, or at chuck-farthing, were liable to fuffer a punifhment as fevere as was fometimes inflided for filonies. He thought it would be impoffible for their Lordfhips to give this Bill the confideration it ought to receive in the' prefent felGon ; and, therefore, he would move to put it off for three months. The LORD CHANCELLOR perfeCtly agreed with the Noble Lord who (poke laft, that this Bill ought not to have been fent to the Lords at fo late A period of the fellion. At the fame time he muff oblei vc, that it was of the utmolt importance to put a (lop to the pratlices againft which the Bill was dirated. It was a praftice-now become al ma} univeifal throughout the kingdom, for per- Cons to go into ale-houfes with bags filled with tick ets, which were drawn in imitation of the ella blithed Lottery, with blanks, prizes, &c. and thoufands of the lower ordets of the community fpeculated in there lotteries, not only as to the purchafe of tickets, but in infuring the numbers to be drawn ; and thus exifled in a much more eaten five degree, all the evils that had ever been complained of in the great lottery. There places were frequently the caufe of young men being brought to the Old Bailey, and afterwards to the place of execution. While he laid thus much in fupport of a Bill that went to fupprefs the molt mifchicvous pratices •that could exift in fociety, he muff obferve that many parts of it required fur ther confideration. It included a variety of games which did not come under the denomination of Little Goes, fubjeEted the perfons in whofe houfes they were played, to a penalty of sodt and all perfons concerned were to be treated as rogues and vagabonds. There was not a fhop in Mar gate, or in other towns on the lea thore, in which the perfons who fhould raffle fqr a fmall toy, would not be liable to be fubjeded to the very fevere pe nalties of this Bill. It was an improper time to fend fuch a Bill up to that Houfe, when the fef tiOn was on the point of doling : it too often hap- pened that regulations of importance were delayed I till it became fo late in the leafon that they could not receive a due difcuflion. He could not think of calling on the Houfe to pats the Bill that day ; he Mould poftpone it to Friday, and if it fhould be 1011, the blame mutt lie, not on that Houle, but on thole who brought it forward. The third reading was then put of till Friday. •LIFN BILL. On bringing up the report cf the Alien Bill, Lord SUFFOLK faid, that as he faw a Noble Duke then in his place (the Duke of Portland), who had been alluded to in yefierday's debate, he would beg leave to explain a few of the circum- It ances he had related at that time ; particularly Gy as one part of his fpeech had been mifrepre fented in the public prints. He did not Itate that the Abbe Sechant, to whom.he alluded, had beeti connelted with the Direetor Reubel ; what he laid was, that their families had been conneeed, but he did not think that the Abbe was known to the Direaor, who had probably been a child at the time when the Other left his native city of Strati it. Aka this man — ratipaid fuch attention to his old female relation, as muft have contributed to prolong her life, he wifhed to retire to his na tive country, to live upon an annuity of tool. which the had fettled upon him. He had applied feveral times for a paffport, and as foon as he had obtained it he was obliged to depart at a Ilion no tice, without being even allowed any time to fettle his affairs, and he was landed in a part of France, from which he was never permitted to go to Straf burgh. His Lordfhip declared he was a man of as corral morals as any he ever knew. Lord PELKAM Paid, that although ftrangers might find their way into that Houfe, and mutate what might fall from him,that circumftance would not give him any concern: he fhould (till continue to addrefs the Woolfack, and direa his fpeech as the Noble Earl had done, to a different part of the Houfe. With refpea to the charge that had yefterday been made againft his Noble Friend, the cafe was fimply this : the Abbe Sechant had ap plied for permit ion to go to France, and it was not confidered prudent to fu ff er him to g o, and return to this country again. After applying two or three times, he was at length informed that he fhould have a' paffport if he left the country within the fpace of four days. He confented, and departed out of the country at the expiration of that time. With refpea to the charaaer of this man, he did not doubt what the Noble Earl had laid of him ; but he mutt obferve, that it was known what were the fentiments delivered by him in the neighbourhood where he refided. Lord SUFFOLK contended, that he had been fent away under circumftances of great hardihip, and at fitch fhort notice as not to have time to fettle' his affairs. But he would Rate another cafe of ' (till greater hardfhip. A French gentleman of the bell moral charaaer, of polithed manners, and great learning, who had been feveral years mar ried in this country, and had feveral children, happened to be fo reduced in his eh climilances us to make a livelihood by teaching the Italian lan guage at Bath. Being at length unable to purfue this employment, he wifhed to retire on a very fmall income to Wales, he aiked for a paffport to go there, and this fmall indulgence was refitfed ; although the whole city of Bath bore teftimony to his proper conduit and principles. After Come further converfation, their Lordfhlps entered into the confideration of feveral claufes in the Bill. Lord HOLLAND inveighed, with a confiderable degree of warmth and energy, againft the unj uß and oppreffiveoperation of this Bill with regard to Aliens, by its fubjeding them to be detaineJ, har- I railed, and put to expence without the polEbility of obtaining redrefs, even after it was difcovered their condud had not merited fuch treatment. He took fhame to himfelf for having, when on the Continent, boated to Foreigners, that, whatever might be the cafe with regard to other countries, it was peculiar to England, that the moment a Foreigner Pet foot on its foil, he was free to go where he pleated, without the danger of being molefted. When he returned with thofe friends, 1 it was with the deepeft regret he found they were liable to all the penalties of the Alien Ad. He confidered it highly unconftitutional to give any Minifter fo unlimited a power over fuch a number of perfons as was granted by this Att. He repeat ed his former arguments againll the perpetuity of the Ad, at the fame time admitting he mould be ready to anent to another Bill for the purpofe of enading what the Government was pledged to by the Definitive Treaty. For thefe reafons he con cluded by Paying he was averfe to the principle of the Bill as it now flood, and fbould vote againft it. The Loan CHANCELLOR Paid he should decline anfwering a great many of his Lordlhip's argu ments, becaufe they had been fully difeuffed in va rious Rages of the Bill. His Lordfhip urged the neceffity of adopting for a time the fyttem of cau tion to which the country was indebted for its fal vation, obferving, that the objedion to now paging the Bill, as a perpetual one, had the.lefs weight, becaufe after what had palled laft night their Lordfhips Rood pledged to repial it, if it could be done with fafety, in the courfe of nett Seffion.— He defended the policy and principle of the Bill, and trailed it would be adopted 'as a necefFary mea lure of precaution by their Lou:Mips. The Report was agreed to, and the Bill ordered to be read a third time to morrow. The other Bills on the Table were forwarded in their refpedive Rages, and their Lordfhips at nine o'clock adjourned. Lord Hutchinfon's Penfion Bill was read a third time. Adjourned at nine o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS. A Meffage from the Lords Rated their Lordiblps' affent to the Foreign Port Bill, the National Debt Bill, the Innkeepers' Allowance Bill, the Audlion Duty Exemption Bill, the Cons miffieners of Excife Reiteration of Goods Bill, the kith Chan. cam's Annuity Bill, the Irith 6 per Cent. Duty, kidaeal BM, the Tortola Trade Bill, the kik Controverted E Dip s and the Marine Mutiny BilL The Order which Rood for to-morrow relative to the ad journed Debate on Finance, was difchasged, on the motion of Mr. Vanfittart, and fixed for Friday. Mr. WA LLAC It, adverting to the garbled ftatemcnt which had appeared iu feveral Newfpapers, under the title of a letter from the reputed fon of the late Nabob of Arcot to certain perfons in this country, obferved, that the ftrange reports which were circulated abroad in confequence of this Ratement was the ground of a motion he thought it neetffary to fubmit to the Houfe, in order that the public might be put in poffeifion of the genuine copy of this letter. He therefore moved, that there be laid before the Houk a copy of a paper, purporting to be a letter from Haffan All, the reputed fon of the late Nabob of Arcot, to fames Stewart Hall and Samuel Johnfon, Efqrs.— After a few words by Mr. Law and the Speaker, the motion was agreed to. Mr. Reuss brought up the Report of the Committee on qtepropEkty of building certain apartments for the mconuneo- datiOn Of boih Hooks of Partiaaseit. Sir W. Damsels was of option. that if it was intended to expend much money in the pearled baildinp, it would be better to creel a new Houle altogether, and to fix upon fame fpot more convent= to the cadence of the Court and the Members then prefent. Lord Q se did not imagine the film to be ►aid out would be fo eotifiderable u to warrant any Inch change of fitua lion as that defired by the Hon. Baronet ; nor did fa& gauge, with the view of convenience dekribed, appear to be at all =dewy. The Report was owleratto opoo the Ts*, Mt A. Mr. Sim 'DLit ?Ore purfuant to notice. He be gan by expreffing his regret that the difcuffion of the fubjeet to which he meant to allude, relative to the late tranfaltions in the Carnatic, fhould have been yefterday interrupted in confequence of the thinnefs of attendance, a arcumftance the more extraordinary, and the more to be regretted, as the Houfe was thereby deprived of the pleafure of hearing the very ingenious fpeech, and compre. henfive ftatement which was naturally to be ex. peeled from the Hon. Member who introduced the fubjeet (a laugh) ; and the Hon. Member wax deprived of an opportunity of edifying the Houfe by a full hiftory of the affairs of India, from the firft eftablifhment of the India Company to the pre. fent day—from the days of Tamerlane to the dep. fition of the Nabob of Arcot (a laugh) ; but as it was fuppofed that the apprehenfion of this copiouF hiftory produced the thinnefs complained of yeller ' day, he (Mr. S.) thought it proper to (late, in the lira inftance,left he timid meet a fimilarmisfortuu e —that he did not mean to detain the Houle long. He felt himfelf compelled to purfue a different line from that Hon. Member, and to abgain from all detail, becaufe he was not himfelf inclined, nor could he fuppofe the Houfe would be pie. vailed on to pronounce any judgment upon the fpecies of ex parte evidence which was yet made public upon this queftion. He few no other alter. native, but to enter minutely into the fubjeift, or to abltain from detail altogether; and the latter he had from the belt confiderations,determined forth; prefent to adopt. The firft moment this cafe was mentioned to him, he conceived it his duty to have a communication with the Minifter refpeeling it; and he declared, in juftice to that Right Hon. Gentleman, that far from wifhing to conceal any thing from him, he evinced the fulleft difpolhio; to afford every proper and neceffary information, and that difpofition, he was glad to obferve, had been fince molt fatisfaCtorily manifested to the Houfe, In Rating the reafons which yefterday urged him to count out the Hoofs, a thing be was not in the habit of doing, it became neceffary, in order to juftify himfclf, to mention fome particti• Lars which would alto juftify the Right Hon. Gentleman on the Treafury Bench, for quitting the Houfe upon that occafion. In his commun. cation with that Right Hon. Gentleman, be did fairly Rate to him what courfe he meant to purfue —lie explained to him what appeared to be the molt prominent feature in this cafe, namely, the fafkty of the Princes confined i. and that Right Hon. Gentleman did fatisfy him, that the utmoft I attention was, and would be, paid to their leen rity, expreffing at the fame time a with that the difcuffion of the bufinefs fhould be pollponed until ' further information fhould be received which was expeited, and which was material to explain the motives and the conduct of the Governor General. To the propriety of this delay he acceded; becauf without further information he did notahink it; would become him to proceed with any declama tory Ilseeches, or inflammatory charges againit a Noble Perfonage who flood fo high in public elk matlon as the Governor Genera l of India. Foy this infoimation, therefore, expeeted by the Mar; nington, be refolved to wait; and having gone into . the country- he was furprlfed , on his return to 'town, to And brat the Hon. Member (Mr, N. cholls) had taken up the queltion :—that he wits (truck with fome new fenfibility for the fufferiage of the native inhabitants of India—new it mull be called, for it was to be recolleited, that in the cafe of Mr. Hollings that .gon. Member differed both with Ministers and Oppolition, but he am teemed determined to take this young Prince tin-, der his protettion. However, in confequence of his interference, be, (Mr.. S.) fent to the Hon. Member,; and his. aittfwer was, that t aims pet fatly the faMe to hire what, day the if . - was brought forward. It was therefore with .00‘14e: derable fur/trite, Wound the Hon. Member yet'. terdatfo anxious to pref: the difenSon, Ind: bttattfe it-iatieffi ell to defer Wooly far ,etas . day. The reason (toted by the Hon'. Mem IPS an apprehentoolhilif lit put it off, the. Secretiry af the Treafory . 'might So-day contrive to Prevent the making of a, houl'b, and thus jerk him out of an opportunity for idelivering his fentimeuts.-- O The reafon for his interpofi tion originally was ! as I underftand; (laid Mr. Sheridan) a fear thee 1 fhould negledt the fubjeet—that I fhould forfeit my pledge. What were the grounds of the . Np• Member's fear I cannot pretend to fay ihet I flatter-4/101f that I am not fubjeet to the imp. tation 'of inconfiftency. I fancy that my condtl4_ in this Houfebas not e: fed me to the charge, & I am not in the habit of changing my opinions or conneEtionsof taking my feat at one fide of the Houfe and the other (a laugh), and ofpaffing back and forward as quickly as if I were only making experiments upon the tempers of both, in order to determine the part which my peculiarities or my in tereft fhould prompt me to take (a laugh). I tuft that upon no former occafion I have been found I inattentive to my duty or engagements in this I Houfe, particularly with refpee to the affairs of India." Mr. S. added, that he took up this bull. nets as a Member of Parliament in the execution of his duty, unimpelled by any out-door influence, ' and he would follow it up in the molt efficacious manner that he could devife. He repeated his ac knowledgments of the Chancellor of the Exche quer's readinefs to fornith every information d.:- fired—a readinefs which the Hon. Member expe rienced a few days fince, when papers were ordered upon his motion, without even calling upon him to Rate the grounds of his application. Though all the information deferable was not yet firth. coming, he could not help thinking, that from the outlines of the cafe, which might be collated from the papers on the table, there was fufficient ground to induce the Minifters, who had not yet mixed or dipped in Indian politics—who flood uncorrupted and unimpeached—above all bias or fufpicion, to take it into their confederation. The detail, as it now appeared, was concife, but fudi ciently ftrong to intent} their feelings, and demand enquiry. It was only necelfary to mention, that from the Peace of 1763 the Nabobs of Arcot were the Friends and Allies of Great Britain : the grandam of the Nabob, who formed that alliance, II