Star. — London, England, 1805-05-01 00:00:00

A er grounds of objection, after what had been to aiil y Rated by his Right Hon. and Learned Friend, it was not necefrary for him to detain the Houfe.— This was not an Eleftion Committee, where it was required that the Members fhould be prefent during may moment of th e proceedins. and if h e wer e - not refitting the motion of the Hon. Gentleman, he fhould now have been propofing a quorum for the Committee, to render Inch conflant attendance whol ly unnecefrary. Would Gentlemen then fay, that liecaille tome Members, from their other importan t duties. could not d evote the whole of their time to Inch an enquiry, that they were never to be nomina ted upon Committees, and were to be excluded from 1, effential a branch of their Parliamentary func ,.ions ? What would be the confequence ? Thofe Nolons who were belt acquainted with the bufinefs of `finance would be precluded from fitting on Commit. tee, in that important department ; throe belt verfed in legal lubieas would be prevented from giving the :ffitiance of their learning in juridical invelligatms ; Inrif,: who were moll informed on the great political iuterells of States, would be incapacitated from af fording their light on that important branch of en oitiry, and thus the country would be deprived of aLe benefit of that mats of talent, the application of which would be moll conducive to its glory and hap iiinefs. Then it was Paid that the Houle was to look to whist the public expelled of it (a .cry of Hear, jaw.) The Houk certainly was to attend to what the public Oulu to expeCt, and that would b e t h e bell indicated • y a calm, firm, and refolute difcharge of its duty. Bat a party cry, which affinned to it {cif the voice of the people, was not to be millaken for the popular fentiment, in order to annihilate the acknowledged privileges of a Member of the Legit lature. There were examinations proceeding on the general principles of ju ft; ce ; every honourable man was therefore a fit Member of Such Committees; the joint to lent of the Houle, when colletteil, would rooft effermally conduce to the elucidation of truth. Was the int rodtation of one party only the belt way to oroorre a fair, and tale exclution of the contrary fide the moll probable means of obtaining a wife decition? Undo e influence ought not to be employed '(a loud cry of hear, hear, from the optofitepe of the floe ff.)— but :t fay, that to fuggeß a lift *to the infpeCtion of a Mend cr was the life Of %indite influence, teemed an allerti an not .at all correB, because it could by no mean s be difccivered if the party had or had not rot ed ace ording to that intin.ation. The matter on- the whoh : appeared to him to plain, that he felt it dif . colt t o vindicate himself for Speaking In king ; but his lc: Kling defire was to rescue the Wink and its pro ceedit from the imputation which had been unjultly direct cd againft both. Mr . SHERIDAN laid, there was a warmth in trrnler 1 into the difctiflion, which did not belong to it. The r cal queßion was, which fide of the Houle molt conch iced to fupport the charalier of the Houle, and to fit 'fil the jull expeEtations of the public. In tome degrt e the Right Honourable Gentleman teemed to have; t entre& notion of the fubjeit, but in order to jufti6 • himfelf, he prefumed to call the opinion of the n ation a party cry. Were the Refolutions of the Ci ty of London a party cry ? Were the meetings all ovi :r the kingdom a party cry ? %Vas the vote of the H oufe of Commons, fupported by the indepen dent f l Brit of its Speaker, a party cry ? It ought to ' be knee .wn that the time was at hand, when it was necefli ry to encourage the friends of the State, by the lot id voice of the people. The Gentlemen on his fide of • the Houfe did not challenge the individuals propel - ed for the Committee without caufe. They tly laid, no one holding a place under the Crovrt.a, is a proper perfon to examine the conduit of the Fsi eft Lord of the Treafury. ( diery of hear, kfar They i raid, a perfon like the Noble Lord, who had fince e Union aated with the hlinifier, went out with him, ea n se again into office with him, and remained to open a back door for the Right Honourable Gen tleman' s admiiEon, is not a fit man to be employed on filch an Decal - lon. Perhaps, the ire amoiairon, of which Gernlomen had heard within tilde few hours, rendered him, if poilibk, yet more objeCtionable.— C..ould At then be Paid (he would repeat the queition) that nc • 'Caufe was &earn for the challenge ? It was exarent elzr futpicionii, that the &it perfon proposed by his Ho loam - able Friend (Mr. Whitbread), being a panic as of the Minillers, thould be refitted, and the prop( Seim for the ballot immediately fucceed. The Right Honourable Gentleman fsid, Shall I be Strippi id of my Wendt ; is no perfon in office, no o ne comet :led with spe to appeia in the Committee ?" It was n of required that no colleague in place Should be oni the Committee, bat it was demanded. that the Memb en should not be pcftered with Treafury lifts. CouIR the Right Honourable G. ntleman not trait to the lea gue of private affeaion, andll his confidence were lieficient there, could he not repute in the ex pedati on, that, for the many favours received, and the satiny More in reveraon, hi' coratilions would not be ,unmindful of his feeurity ? It was not fair to lay. the exclullon, on tome important (locations, of perfons in place, was unknown to our law ; this was the.cate under the circumftanccs of appointing Com anittees on delinquency in the Eaft Indies. Who brought in the Bill by which Ibis was enacted ? Lard Melville. This was the public reformer who was to lately libelled by the Houle of Commons ; this was the man who was Chairman of the Committee, and who profecuted the unfortunate delinquents with ex traordinary feverity. But this was not an Indian dc• lingua% it was the parka advanced to the head of ties King's Government. Huse epoch more expe then was it, that this great Officer of State, if Should not be proteaed by the companions in /;is crones. The Right Honourable Gentleman for. 2ot hiaotelf. He (Mr. Sheridan) told him he was himfelf upon his trial,but he replied, that there was no charge, no report againft him. The Right. Ho nourable Gentleman pefcribed three things, which the Committee were en try,. and it was extremely unlucky ;that in all three he himfelf has impli cated. The fiat was, if he had authentic informa tion of the purpole for which the money was drawn fait (that was, if the Firfl Lord of the Treafury had fuch intelrgence of the proceeding of Lord Melville and Mr. Trotter ?) The fecund was, if the money 's witherawn fur the purpotes for which it was and applied to the delicate fervices which had 1 ; adverted to? It was curious to fee a perfon put t? Cocrunittee, of whom it was (aid he had cor• :;'? %I the Irith Parliament. If he would comm a is - ora‘c.cices with regard to one Legiflature, his in ' it...a a !: leap would not be deficient to do the • fame to another. On this charge of the rniapplka r.tion of the money, the Right Honourable Gentleman was to be tried, and if it fhould be found that the File Lord of the Treafury authorized fuch condua, it would be no wonder W the fubalterns in office took advantage of it to erred their own purpofes. The third regarded the di(charge given to Lord Melville, on account of the defalcation of Mr. Jellicoe. Was it not then molt obvious, that the Right Honourable Gentleman's purity was the queftion to he determin ed in all theft ? Then his Honourable Friend very naturally enquired, what would a man of honour du if placed in fuch an unhappy predicament ? The Right Honourable Gentleman, when the fubje was (tarred, made no objection to the Committee ; he felt himfell In clofely touched, In fore when his con dua was doubted, that he would have the matter fully examined, and (to tile his own words) he would have it lifted to the bottom. Then faid his friend truly, a man of honour, in loch a difpofition, would have no concern with, if poffible, no know ledge of the parties by whom the enquiries were to be profecated. But what was the cootie of the Right Honourable Gentleman ? He raid, " I will prefcribe the line of your march. I will anpoint the commanders in the field." He drew up the indict ment by whichhe was to he arraigned, and then no minated the jury before whom he was to be tried.— He would tell the Right Hon. Gentleman, in fuch a proceeding he had not conlulted his own honour; the People of England would be difapp o i n t e d, an d they were entitled - to a fair, full, and impartial in vefligation. Mr. HENRY LASCELLES hoped the Hon. Geatleman (Mr.Whitbread) did not mean to include him among the perfons on the ballotted Committee to whom he objected. Mr. WHITBREAD—" The Hcnourable Gen tleman may be confident I had no objeaion to his name, as I alked his permiffion to include him in the lift I myfelf prepared. " Mr. H. LASCELLES—At You did fo." Mr. SHERIDAN role to explain. Mr. FULLER made feveral oblervations on the appointment of the Committee. He laid, if the Mat ter, of the Rolls was always quibbling in another place as he was here, he would not give a farthing for his arguments. The SPEAKER reminded the Hon. Member that he was fpeaking of an abfent Member. Mr. FULLER—" Well, well, he laid, he would rather aft from perfonal affeftion. I fay public mo tives ought to prevail over private feelings." Mr. CANNING at fume length vindicated the mode of feleaing the Committee by ballot, as the molt conftitutional, and confillent with Parliamen tary order; while that recommended by the Hon. Member who introduced the prefent motion, by at , tempting to vote for each Member feparately, while it would have the eCeEt of exciting perfonal afperities and vexatious divifionr, was of a nature the molt likely to produce the very evil which the Honourable Member profeffed to prevera ; for if any Miniller were interefted in fuch a queftion, and polfeffed any un due influence in that Houle, which could by pollibi lity operate upon the nomination of a Committee, the mode propelled by the Hon. Member was precifely that which was heft calculated to fecure the ohjea of fuch a Minifler, and enfure the nomination of aCom mittee, fuch as he might chufe to point out, by de. prising the members he might be fuppofed to influ ence, of any private or contcientious difcretion they were at liberty to ufe in private, by the mode of bal lotting by lifts, in which any alteration they might chide to make could never be ,lilcovered, but of which dile:Trion they mull be deprived by voting openly. He pointedly condemned the language in which the lion. Member had fpoken of the Committee, but was glad to hear the perfonal refpeft he had expreffed in his explanation for its Members individually. That explanation he was lure the Houle was pleated to hear ; but the Hon. Member could not make full amends for the obloquy he had thrown out without at lealt retracting the terms he had ufed 4 for what Gen tleman mutt not feel hurt at being pointed out as a member of a packed jury. • It had been laid that Lord Melville was now totally withdrawn, and that his Right Hon. Friend was now become the fubjea of enquiry ; but in transferring enquiry from Lord Mel ville to his Right Hnn. Friend, Gentlemen oft the other fide of the Houle travelled beyond the original intentions of the Houle. The enquiry was inftituted as an enquiry of jultice, and not of party. The de cifion of the Houle had, however, accidentally thrown a weapon into their hands, with which they now fought to attack his Right Hon. Ft fend ; but he confided that the majority of that Houle, who law the 'drift of their proceedings, would not give them countenance. Mr. JEKYLL adverted to the companions which had been made by Honourable Members near him (Mr. Fox and Mr. Sheridan), and a Right Honour able Gentleman oppolite to him (Mr. Pitt) between the propofed Committee and a Jury, and the privi lege of challenging the pannel. There was another privilege of challenge eftablifhed in the jurifprudence of this country, which was that of challenging the array ; for it was a maxim in the Courts of Juftice, that no Officer of Juitice, nor any perfon officiahy concerned, or having any authority in the tummon ing of Juries, fhould interfere in felcdting the pannel upon any trial in which they were intereaed, one way or the other. The maxim in this cafe, (Iron& ap plied to the nomination of the prefent Conimittet ; for nothing could be more incontinent with the prin. ciples.of plaice and jurifprudence than that the Right Hon. Gentleman, whole own condua was to be the fubjeft of itiveffigation, and poffeffing the influence he did, fhould be allowed to name, or to recommend the perfons who we►e to compote the Jury that was to make drat invenigation. It would, on the con trary, have been no snore than continent with the ufual decorum of that Houfe, that the Right Hon. Gentleman, whole condua was the lubjeft of ditto!. lion, fhould withdraw while it was pending, And Of fer no interference that could be fuppofed collate any influence over the deciflons of the Houle. Mr. WINDHAA laid. that it was his intention to propofe that his name fhould be (truck off from this Committee, upon nearly the fame grounds that the Noble Lord who was the tubjea of the motion, was, in his opinion, ineligible, namely, the friendly and in timate intercoarft which he had had with the Right Hon. Gentleman, whole condua was to be invel tigated. It was a duty which he did not with to un dertake. As to the nature of the Committee it ought, in his lodgment, to be compofed , not mere l y o f im partial unprejudiced perfons, but of thole who would be zealous and aftive in their refearches, who would in fad be a vigorous and accufing Committee. They fhould not, as fome Gentlemen recommended, cnnfilt of a certain number of Members from each fide of the Houfe--of a mere junftion of the fall and alkali, to neutralize the vigour and refolution that was ne ceffary to probe this important cafe to the bottom.— The Committee was not meant for judicial decilion, but to colleft and bring forth all the grounds for a charge—to be fubmitred to the confederation of the Houle. Was it not then fingular that tile very per fon accufed, °you'd himfelf nominate the Committee that was to examine the grounds of the accufation ? When a friend was thus appointed to purfue fuch ex amination, he mull be rather a lturdy misralift to ufe the neceffary diligence in order to Peek out fads likely to lead to convielion. The trial was too fevere for any man to fubmit to, and the confidence Ai as too much for the Moak to rep fc. It was a trial which he was not willing to encounter. He once aged with the Right Honourable Gentleman, although he now difagreed with him ; and, indeed, to (peak correEllv, he did not even when he appeared to aft with the Right Honourable Gentleman entire ly agree with him. The agreement was rather com parative than abfolute—rather with reference to the fentiments of thofe then oppofed to the Right Hon. Gentleman, and with whom he (Mr. W.) now con curred, than from a complete coincidence in the views entertained by the Right Hon. Gentleman. Still his connection with the Right Hnn. Gentleman had been fuch that he did not with to be a Member of a Com mittee appointed to arraign his conduct In confi dering the powers with which this Committee was yelled, combined with the perfons of which it was compofed, he really did not think it was calculated to give fatisfaftion to the country. And however little he might be (Hoofed to enforce a devoted re verence for public opinion on points of peace and war, upon which, what was called the public, was gene rally incompetent to judge ; yet upon fuch an occa lion as Las, he would maintain, that the opinion of the Public was entitled to peculiar attention. The reafonable fufpicions of the Public fhould be guarded againft, without any regard to prejudice or malig nity. As Dr. Johnfisn laid refpeCting the partizans of the antiquity of Offian's Poems, that although they could not faesafy unreafonable incredulity, they ' fhould provide againtl reafonable objedlion. It wa. the duty and intexelt of the Houfe to preferve itfelf from fufpicion in any part of its proceedings upon this delicate queftion. If the Committee were to be conftrated according to ptefent appearances, his conviction really was, that although the condemna tion of the party accufed by Inch a Committee might have weight, their acquittal would have no weight at all (a cry of hear, Lear !) He conjured the Houle to take fuch a courfe as fhould fatisfy the public, and this was a phrafe which, ufed too generally, would rather befit a tea-garden than a great and grave al lembly ; but, it was a fit addrefs to the Houfe on this occafion. The public was the party to be fatis fied, for it was the property of the public that had , been mifapplied. If obliged by the vote of the Houfe to become a Member of this Committee, un der its prefent • conllit ution paitkillatly, he declared that he Ihould enter into it with difgult. Lord CASTLEREAGH conceived this motion not to be fo much perfonal to him, as directed against the decilion of the Houfe, which had thought proper to appoint him a Member of this Committee; and it was for the Houfe to confider of the propriety of re fcinding that decilion. As to the objeCtions that had been made to him on the ground of his former poli tical life, it was remarkable that the Honourable Mover dwelt upon that part of his conduit in which he happened to differ from his Right Hon. Friend in his public conduct. That part certainly made againft the general argument of the Honourable Mover, as to his unfitnefs to inveftigate the condo& of his Right Honourable Friend. The Noble Lord adverted to the charge advanced againft his proceedings relative to the Union. But, upon the whole of that tranfaftion, he refiefted with fatisFaetion, and with regard to the affertion of his Right Hon. Friend, (Mr. Fuller), which had been quoted by the Honourable Gentle. man, it was never ufed in the tenet in which Honour ble Gentlemen profeffed to unite:46nd it ; for if his Right Honourable Friend really believed him to have corruptly appliA the public money for the purple of carrying the Union, his Right Hon. Ft lend knew ' his duty too well, not to make it the fubjed of pub lic impeachment. The Noble Lord exhorted the Houfe to weigh well the motives of action which ap peared to direft the other fide of the Houfe. Thole Honourable Gentlemen, and particularly the Honour able Gentleman who took the lead among them, praifed the Houfe only when it faked their views, and he trutled the fate of Parliament would never be committed to the direftion of that Hon. Gentleman, who, to fay the leap of him, abandoned Parliament at a period of unexampled difficulty and peril. The Hon. Gentleman then negleaed his higheft duty. He, for his part, rather wished to look prolpeeively to the coedit& of Gentlemen, and not to re-open old fotuces of difcord; but if lion. Gentlemen were determined to look back, he had no objeftion to follow them, and he had no helitation in raying, that he faw nothing in any of the connections of that Hon. Gentleman that was likely fo to neutralize Isis opinians as to induce him to think that it would be tight to trult the fate of the cour.try to his direction. Mr. GREY confidered the obfervatinns diforderly in the extreme with which the Noble Lord had con cluded, namely, that hit Honourable Friend (Mr. Fox) was in the habit of praifing the conduct of that Hunk only when it fuited his own views and became the itilteument of his ambition. This he was lure was not only to fppak incorreftly with reference to the Orders of the Houk, but inconfiltently with truth. With retina to the inflance cited by the No ble Lord in support of his affertion, he had no objec tion at any time to go into a diltuffion of all the cir cumltances which led to that abOinence from attend ing the meetings of that Houfe on a former occafion, which was fo much the fubjed of cenfure. It was Orange, however, that the Gentlemen on the other fide thould at one time complain of him and his ft lends for abfenting themfelves from the Houk, and now complain of their condo& in attending. In leaving the Houfe on the occafion alluded to, they relieved the Right Hon. gentleman from being thwarted by any oppolition, and left him in pc - dation of uncon 'routed power. How he had ulcd that ih.wer— ' how he had juflified the liberal hopes of the country, and the confiding fentianents of the Houfe, he would not now difcufs. But referring to the fubjed before the Houfe, he would afk whether, in the conflitutio of this Committee, which was meant to invetligate the alledged delinquency of the &If Miniller of the Crown, it was proper to feted one of his own eel leagues to become a Member of that Committee, one who mull naturally infer. that the conviction of the perfon accufed would immediately produce the re. dation of his own power ? Was it proper to appoi,.r the Noble Lord, who might Itimfeh be implicated in the milappropt iation of money which was complaine. of? The Noble Lord had been charged in that Houfe with having corruptly a ppiied public money in Ireland, for the purpoie of (ilea ing the Union. To this charge the Noble Lord never made even a dillinef deni,ll, but. he appc;,i,d truly to the candour of the ho n k., that no man avoid be compelled to anfwer a queition of that nature, or that his filence should nor be - argued to imply guilt. Then the Noble Lord fhelteted liirole!f under a litni lar plea to that which availed fo much to the heroes of the Tenth Report. When then public corruption was the fobjed to be enquired into, was it ratinnut that a perfou (]could be appointed to condo& loch in quiry, who was hiinfelf charged with public co. nip tion ? To prefs the appointment of loch a perfon matt imprefs the public, who were particularly anxious upon this lubjtel, with an idea that it was deligned to render the enquiry altogether eloloty. If :he mode of appointing the Committee, which w as recommen ded by his Hon. Friend, had been adopted—if the Members had been nominated by the open vote of the houfe, he had no doubt that even the Right Hon. Gentleman on the oppoftte bench (Mr. Pitt). would not attempt to propofe the perfon whom i: was the object of the motion before the houfe to remove. lie called upon the houfe not to fac o lion an appointment that mutt produce a mon injut ions inference abroad, with refped to the character of the houfe. As to the character of the Right Hon. Gentleman, he fliould fay nothing. He would put all idea of perfonal deli cacy with refped to him nut of the quellion, as the Right Hon. Gentleman hiinidf appeared to feel no degree of perfonal delicacy upon this occalion. The ATTORNEY GENERA Lobferved, that the Honourable Gentleman who had fpokcn halt, had ex preifed himfelf with great wound), in defence of his, political fri - nds. In his opinion that part of their political lift 1. tiich they thought fit to abllain from attending their lauty in the Houfe of Commons eva, not very honourable or advantageous to their charader. It was a period when their attendance and advice be came the more =dray, on account of the difficulties of the times, and the great expediency of vigorous • and united meafures. The prefent grunion, it was true, was not fo decided but it might be altered The Houfe had preferred proceeding on a ballot. The next queltion was, what fort of a Committee would you chonfe? The Right Hon. Gentleman op. polite (Mr. Windham) laid, you have an occult's Committee, which would undoubtedly have been et fated by the lilt offered the other night by the Hun. Gentleman. He contended, that the Houfe wanted an impartial, enlightened, and enquiring Committee (a cry of Hear, Hear, Bear .9 With regard to the bal lot. there would be found three excellencies in that mode of proceeding : ill. They would avriid the in convenience attending a debate; z. It would be found that the names have been (elated from both fides of the Houfe; 3d. This mode was the belt calculated to avoid improper influence. A Committee of zea lous perfous, chofen from both fides tll the Houle, was the bell adapted for colleting evidence and fads. The Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Windham) who entertained fcruples about laving on the Committee; was one of the propereft men that could be feleded. No want of zeal was to be attributed to him, but he was an epitome of all good qualities. He could not be laid to have a very good feeling towat ds the per fon accused ; hut he was acute in his feelings of pri vate fi icndfhip, and would no doubt make thefe qua.- lities go hand in hand. Mr. WINDHAM, in explanation, flated, that he did not use the words alluded to by the Right. Hon. Gentleman in the fide attributed to him. Wien he made ufe of the phrafe r. accufing Committee," he did not mean that it was to be tit compofed as the Learned Gentleman imagined : it was not his with to exclude impartiality from it, although he wished that the more valuable qualities of refearch, intelli ; Bence, and invelligatien, fliould be amply difcovered in it. The ATTORNEY GENERAL explained. Mr. R. THORNTON allured the Hon. Gentle. man lie had no difpofition to Icreen delinquency, or to cover guilt. On the contrary, he had voted on the first night againft Lord Melville, and might do fo again if any criminating matter fhould appear againd him, or againft any other perfon ; but he did wit agree with Gentlemen of Oppofition, that the lilt of the Committee was improperly made out. It was ttue the Oppofition did not vote in the forming of this ballot, but they abltained for the put pole of making this motion, with which he could not concur. Mr. MARTIN, of Galway, did not think that a Minifter, merely as fuch, ought to be objected to as a Member of the Committee, but might be objected to as an individual on the nature of his charaCter as a man. Such as if he had been mean when out of place, and guilty of corruption in it, or for any rm. Cons that were perfonal. He was one of thofe who voted for the Ad of Union between this Country and Ireland, but fince be had been in this country he had repented of that vote, and he would (tate tome of his realms for having fo repented—( Ouilion,queion, qucf lion ! was loudly called out). The SPEAKER begged leave to remind the Ho nourable NLmber that the obfervations upon which he was about to enter could have no polTible bearing upon the fubjeCt before the Houfe for difcuffion. Mr. MARTIN gave way, and after a fhort con vertation, during which strangers were excluded, the Houfe proceeded to a divition on Mr. Whitbread's motion for expunging the name of Lord Caftlereagh, and inferting that of Mr. Bake' in its place— Ayes, 86 ; Noes, 219. —Majority, 133. Another divifion took place on a motion, made, as we understood (for Itrangers were not re-admitted), by Mr. Vv'indham, to have his own name crated from the lilt— Ayes, So ; Noes, 2c7.—Majority, t 27. The Houle then adjourned, after the ntlial motions for the regulation vt the Committee, :it a quarter paft twelve. r I , 1 ,r