Star. — London, England, 1805-05-15 00:00:00

PARLInMENT.IItr PRoLEEDINu.s. HOUSE OF COMMONS, TUESDAY, MAY Eg. Mr. SFP AKI R having taken the Chair at the ufual hour; alter k m , private ballot+, had been difportd of, Mr. S,rjrant ttES I' renewed MI notice of a motion on the rub y& of the Elevemh Report of the Com:nil:Goners of Naval En. for I hurray. Mr W F 1.1.10 rr moved for a Return of the Amount of ►irefstmots made by Grand Juries in Irdand, from the Year 1775 to 14. - 4. for each County, diftinguilling each Year, and ;maim. taritiog the Su:ns afreff:tlfor Roads.—Ordered. Mr. WESTERN ol•taiued leave to bring In a Bill for fecuring Porifiles from Fraud, by the Failure or 13,:falcations of Land-Tax Colleetors. SIR HOME POPHAM. Sir J. STEWART, Chairman of the Committee appointed to enquire refpeeliog the Charges for Repair, of. the Romney and Senfible, belonging to Sir Horne Popham', Squadron in the Red Sea. reported to the Houk, that upon the production cf fume pa pers called for by the Commirrec. relative to the Paid charers, cer t ,in papers were returned eorit,ining other matters of importance. not wholly conned...el with the bonnet, immediately referred to the Committee, and rerpeeling which lie had been .kfirexl by the Committee to take the opinion of the Houk, whether they were to extend their confideration to thole extraneous matters now laid before then. The more readily to learn the fenk of the lioufe upon thi4 fubjed, he had been dire red to more, that the Lid Committee lie empowered to enquire into all matter, contained in the laid Pap, rs ; and he moved accordingly. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQ:Eft. NiJ, that with. flu doubt the words and other aftairs." contained in thvinftrue tions to the Committee, kerne,: to reter to them the coidderation of all matter. relating to tlitfulsjed before them. lint the Houk, in thok inftrudions. had clearly &Eked the leading objects of the erquir) it reerred to the Connuittae. as relating only to the Paid ihip., and not to every new fubjed which might accidentally arife from papers or doeunuents laid before them, and of which the Houk h no coeM/Ance whatever. He therefore thought the object for the ;MI. udroti, required by the Committee would be better aufaered by omitting the words, " all matters con• tabled in laid papers"—and in place thereof to Wert the wnrds, " the expeediture and es:peaces of repairs and ftores refpeding raid !hips." Sir Jo'. -IN STEWART agreed to the Amendment, and it was adopted accordingly. C•THOLIC CUESTION. The Order of the Day being read for returning the adjourned debate from this morning on the Ca tholic Petition. Mr. WILLIAM SMI role, and exnrefred his extreme fati , !aaion that the Houle had not come to a decifive vote urn the prayer of this Petition, be fore it had heard the brilliant fpeech of an Honour able Member who had frill:en laft night towards the dole of the debate (Mr. Grattan), a fpeech which he had himfelf, and lie was confident every liberal man in the Houle had heard with the greeted pleafure and admiration, a fpeech fraught with the molt im portant information and irrefiflible argument upon this great quettion ; a fpeech which, if it was not for ?unate enough to decide the fettle of the Houfe with the opinions of tbm fpeaker, molt at leaft put it out of the power of any man to dilpute that that Houfe, in the acquifition of fuch a Member, had derived a mod important advantage from the Union. The more he revolved in his mind the importance of that fpeech, the more he fhould regret that the Houk Ikould be inclined to decide upon the arguments and principles laid down, in the former part of the de bate, by thole who oppofe this meafure ; for what ever was to he the ultimate (lecithin, it was neceffary that it be founded upon the moil full and mature de liberation, tree from that fpecies of heat and impe virility which appeared on the other fide of the Houle, in the mode of laft night's dilculßon. He was at the fame tittle ready to make great allowances for the warmth of fcme Gentlemen coming from the Sifter Country, who, refiding there, had been expofed to the rifles and vicitiltudes ever infeparable from civil war, and liable to have their tempers (bored, and their minds prejudiced by the injuries they had fudained. It was not wonderful if they were not pre pared to difculs the fubjeft with fo winch coolnels and deliberation as the Members of this country, who had not been esp-ifed to filch cattle of provocation. How er, er, in ma king allowances for fuch feelings, his with was, that the Houle would not be led to form its conclnfion under any impretfions made by the affer tions prompted by Inch warmth. All the arguments on one fide of the Houfe, feemed fraught with this warmth ; but if he andel-flood the arguments of Gentlemen, and particularly of a Learned Gentle man oppolite to him (Dr. Duigenan), hi; objec tions, and all his arguments, went to the Catholics merely as loch, and not upon any fair political ground ; and, in fait, he feemed much lefs anxious to anfwer the arguments of others, than to ufe his own. Another Hon. and Learned Gentleman under him (the Attorney-General), feemed to agree, that let the Legiflature do what it might for the Catho lics of Ireland, it was impoffible to content them.— In this affertimi, he could not agree ; neither could he conceive that thofe things called fads, by the other Hon. and Learned Member, were really was willing, however, to give both Honourable Members credit for Rating what they imagined to be faits. But even fads, however truly tinted, might be in many cafes bad foundations for argument ; tri fles light as air might fometimes amount to the ftrongett proofs. The Honourable Member (DoCtor D.) began by throwing difcredit on the Petition it felt, becaufe, as he alledged, there were many coun ties in Ireland, from which not a tingle fignature ' appealed amongit the Petitioners ; but whether this oblervation was meant to infinuate that the Petition was not fupported by the general with of the Catlin. lies, or that any portion of them were unwilling to take the Oaths of Allegiance prtferibed, teemed to him unfounded either way. Gentlemen who oppofe this =afore, avail themfelves of arguments on both iidcs the quefiion. Oae argited,that if they had not felon the oaths, it was a proof of their unwilling ;refs ; and another that if they had taken them, they were equally unworthy of credit; but the fcruples entertained by Catholics againd taking that oath, which was the only impediment to all they o ifhed to enjoy, was in direct contradidion to all the affertions and fophiliries ufed againd them on this ground.— Ile taw this day a lilt of zoo° Catholics who refuted to take an oath to George the Fitfh, which they could not reconcile to their confcienees, but preferred every fpecies of profcription and preclution to which the refufal expofed them. The refufal of the emi ,rant Clergy of France to take the oaths of fealty, !o die ufurped powers of that country at the late Revolution, and their preference to embrace banal'. went and a mifcrable fubfiftence in this country, is another proof that oaths are not regarded by them as matter of indifference; and thole inaances were proofs directly fubvcrfive of all the affertions made nyou the authority of molly documents, or the filly r 4 fidutions of eccleflaftical councils in the twelfth .\ or fifteenth centuries. As to any partiality for the Catholic Religion, he, as a Proteflent Diffenter, was a perfon the farthett removed from all liability to fuch an imputation, but he confidered them as men much and unjuftly oppreffed, though with as good aright to proteEtion as any other clafs of his hlajefly's fubjeets ; for in matters of religious opinion, he held the right of every man to form his own, as it WAS only to our Great Mailer we were to be anfwerable. He could not agree with the apprehentions expreffed by the Learned Mcnibcr, that the admiffion of Irifh Ca tholic Mcmhet s into that Houfe, even to the utmotl extent of fixty-four for all the counties, would have the effca of embarrafling Milliners into any meafurc they thought tit to demand. It was a libel on the King's Government to alien that even if all the Irifh Members were Catholics, and every one difpofed as was alledged, they could, by hanging together, and conspiring ever fo clofely, carry any object in that Houfe inimical to his Majeay's Government, in church and hate, and against the check of five hun dred and feventy Protestant Members of Great Bri tain. He equally ditbelieved the mischievous influ ence attributed to the Roman Catholic Clergy, and the afferrion that Catholic opinions never change ; and he intlanced the cafe of Canada, to prove that the Britifh Legiflature had not always aEted upon principles inimical to the Catholic religion, and ought now to conciliate the Catholics of Ireland, by fully adopting them into the bofom of the Conttitu tint). Mr. LEE fupported the motion for going into a Committee. In this he knew that he had the misfortune to differ from in toy friends of his, but he aeled from the Ilrongelt conviction. The fubjeft, he thought, one of the molt important ever dilcuffed within thole walls. He knew the Protellant religion was con neCled elofely with the foundations of Britifh liberty; many of our belt anceltors had fhed their blood upon the feaffold in its cattle, and he was not furprifed, therefore. at the jealoufy with which the people of England regarded every thing which threatened to encroach upon its molt distant barriers ; but preju dices within the laft zo years had much fubfided.— He remembered, the day and not far remote, when the cry of Popery would Lave been regarded as no thing lets than the approach of deltruftion ; but even in Ireland, where that cry was molt formidable, pre judice had given way to reafon and experience. He confidered, however, that a pledge•was either pofi tively given, or strongly under flood at the Union, that this meafure fhould pals ; and he fhould have confidered it certain, from the fpeech of the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Pitt), which might have done honour to Greece or Rome in their proudelt day, that his own with was decidedly for the meafure, but that he would not, at this time, prefs it againit the inclination of his Sovereign, and that he would refill it from any other quarter. He thought this a fair Parliamentary ground. The principle of the coellion was not a new one, it had been difettfred over and over again. He rejoiced that the confe quent relaxation which bad been granted in the Irifh Parliament, had been given gradually, as altogether they might have caufed too great a revulfion.— He was lure that not even the molt fanguine of the Catholic Gentlemen who brought forward this Pe tition, had any expectation that it would pats in the prefent Sell - lon. Their hope only was, that it would work its way by degrees, through the me dium of better underlianding, reafon, and liberality. When it was first brought forward in Ireland, only thirteen Members of Parliament voted for it. In the Adminittration of Lord Welfencreland. emilfaries were font down to every Grand Jury in the country, to procure refolutions and petitions againit it ; but afterwards a recommendation came from his Mikity in favour of the petition ; and the very fame Grand Jurors who ref rived againit it voted for it, by which the Grand Jurors and tile Parliament were both dif. graced. Prejudices here would, he doubted not, in time, give way in like manner. He was, however, for going iron the Committee, and thought, that though it might not be expedient to give all, tome thing ought to be given ; and hope held nut for the future. He then entered into a comparative view of the progrefs of the reformation in England and in Ireland, under Henry VIII. In the former it was promoted by reafon, by argument, and by intirtietion; in the latter it was attempted only by flatutes, by the (word, and the feverities of a penal code.— Bifhops were fent over to initruet the natives, who knew not a word of their language, nor took any pains whatever for their initruetion ; and the Pro. tellant religion was never offered to them in any other (tape but that of an An of Parliament,followed up by a perfecuting war upon all their cuftoms and habits : thus it was, that the Reformation had made fo little progres, that at this day above three millions of Catholics remained without anylikdihood of converfion. Penal leverities had been tried for near Zoo years in vain. It was high time now effeetually to change the fylltm ; and In far from being injurious to the Protestant intereß, wculd be a fyltem of, indulgence to the Catholics, that he was convinced that interell could be rendered secure by no means fo efFeelual as the perket reconciliation of three millions of their fellow fubjeas to the Proteitants of Ireland. If, however, he were afked his opinion upon the terms of ceding the meafures claimed in this Pe tition, he fhould all:, what were the Catholics pre ored to cede ? Clear he was they ought to cede fomething important in turn. A main point v.ould be to allow his Majefly the privilege of appointing their Bifhops from a number of Catholic Priests, choler' by the Clogy of the dioccfe. This wnuid be getting rid, by modification, of a great obf acle. He had repeatedly put the queltion to men of that per filiation, and folemnly declared he never heard an opinion againit it from an educated Catholic. But were they, as a body, prepared to come forward ? were their Bithops or Clergy prepared to propofe it ? H e law no reafon why the Pope of Rome fhould en joy a power in Ireland which he had not in any of the Catholic countries upon the Continent; and it was his own opinion that Inch an arrangement as this would remove a grand obit-act: to the principal with of the Catholics, without which he could never con fent to their having feats in that Houfe. Sir WILLIAM scorr laid, the Hon. Mover of this queftion had affeeted to dillinguilh between the civil and religious inllitutions of the country, as if they were capable of complete reparation ; the prac tice, however, of all civilized Rates, had fully de monfirated that they were fo intimately united, that to attempt to fever them was in reality to &boy them A luminous and eloquenepolitieal philoftipber (Mr. Burke) entertained ideas directly oppofed to fuel) a doEtrine. " The attachment (he lays) of the religion of the State, with our civil eflahlifhment, reigns throughout the whole of Englifh policy ; not merely as conjunctive, but as infeparable ; not as what may be laid gide, but as that, tLe union of which is the foundation of the whole conflitution."— They are In far joined, that the idea of the one al moß impreffes upon us the recolleBion of the other ; and Church and State fo impercep tibly flow into each other, that the connexion, even to the organ of fpeecls, is perfectly familiar. This fraternal relation was not a novelty in our hillory, it grew up in the moil early periods of it, and was firm ly combined in thefe times, when the liberties of this na tion were effectually fecured. After our (acted in- Ritution had endured many defperate affaults, it role with renewed flrength from the confliB, and we were dellined to enjoy the bleffing not only of a free but of a Pr °tenant Conftitntion. In the fame charter in which the fovereign appointment was given, in which the rights of the fubjea are declared, it was laid this king dom !hall be for ever Protellant."Eloperfretua" was the earner prayer he fhould offer for the fafety and hap pinefs of his country. The principles now advanced were calculated not to preferve ' but to impair the Conflitution we had received from our anceaors, and to facrilice to experiment the invaluable privi leges by which we bad been hitherto dillinguifhed.— By what provitions was this Conttitution to be fe cured ? By the fundamental laws of the country. — What were thefe laws ? The King mull be a Protef tant. He can marry none but a Proteftant. Was this to lull to repofe the cnnfcience of the Sovereign? Was it for his pc• tonal comfort in this life, or his happinefs hereafter, there reflriClions on his very thoughts were ordained ? Certainly with no fuch delign : it was for the protection of there realms from the dangerous confequences of Catholic innovation. It was, in fuch a country as this guarded by loch Legiflative pre cautions, with regard to the opinions of the Prince, that if no diflinet provilions had been made, the ge• Petal maxims refulting from eilablifhed law, would be, that all the great Officers of State aflilling the Monarch in the dricharge of his high functions fhould be Protellants. It was required that the Supreme Magiltrate fhould be of that perfuafion; and were not the reprefentatives of his align fl power to entertain the fame religioas fentiments ? In order to preferve the fyilem inviolable, it was not only expedient, but one- Lary; whatever might be the flotation or the policy of other States in this particular. in England it was pru dent, from peculiar circumfkances, to preferve this refiraint, hecaufe from the nature of our limited Mo narchy, the incumbent of the Throne may be in the exercife of a very (mall portion of power ; almoß the whole afloat authority, and the entire refponfibility may be delegated to his Ministers, and what would be the perils that might await us if they were the Raves of Catholic fuperlkition ? It was on filch grounds that he confidered it not a matter of doubt, but of conviction and certainty, that to permit there privileges to be extended to perfuns of the Remith faith, was to infringe the fundamental maxims of our glorious Conititution. A Proteltant King furrounded by Catholic Miniffers, was a foleeilm in lira, as well as in law, for there mutt be a perpetual contradiction between the duties of the one and the other. It was an important funetion of the great officers of Rate to attend with zeal and vigilance to the proteCtion of our church ellahlilhment ; but how could this obligation be difcharged by thole' who deemed it abfurd, per nicious, profane, and fanatical ? It was true he was not enabled, as many others were, from intimate and local knowledge to fpeak to the prefent cprellion ; hut if the prernifes he had affirmed were at all correct, the oblation to the motion before the Houle was pa ramount to all the inferior circumfiances of accident and locality. The Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Fox). in his inttoduBory addrefs, told the Houle, that from frolic unfavourable events, the g rants al ready made had not produced the elf Et that might have been naturally expeaed, and this difappoint• ment he tiled as an argument for new concellions. In his (Sir William Scott's) mind, it operated in a way precifely the reverie ; if what had been already given had not been beneficial to the perfoas to who:n the donation was extended, there was little expel.. tion that by them any future advantage from the pie fent propofition would be derived. An Honourable Member who was an eloquent advocate of the carafe he afferted (Mr.(;rattan), had intimated there would be danger of feparation between the biller Iflandc, if this motion were related. In Inch a declaration he might fay much for the courage, but he implied very little in favour of the loyalty of the people of Ireland. He (Sir W. Scott). had hoped he fhould rather have feen thole proofs of their gratitude and attach ment for what was conceded, than any indic. !Loos of difguft and alienation for what was withheld. If he might make a comparative obfervation en the feelings of the Catholics of the two Cann tries, he fliould diic , ,ver the dWprifition manifelled by the Englith Papitts was much ttre moil honourable, although the liws now complained of were more onerous to the Englifh than to :he Trial of that pro fallon. The proportion of Gentlemen of diftin gnithed families, who were Catholics, was inuch greater among the former than among the latter ; and hence the laws which relirifted them from the executive and lcgiiiative fitoatiane, were to tlean pe culiarly fevere. It had been laid that the nil:leas of that perftrafion were deprived of their civil riaht. True it was, that one of the Princes of the Houle of Stuart had been driven from the throne for rnifee,e_ due ; but upon what principle were his fucceirirs ex cluded ? It was becaufe they were attached to the Popifh Religion ; the Protestant faith had become a necefrary part of our Conflitution, and we could ilea be governed by thole who were inimical to it. The Houle had heard much of virtue arid reprefentatiao, and it was pretended that the Catholics of Ireland were not reprefented ; but nothing was more ma nifeft than that they were admitted to the com plete exercife of the elective franchile ; and in this refpea, at leaft, they enjoyed every privilege poi felled by Proteftants. He had underlined that the Honourable Mover was preparing the history of a very important and eventful period in the annals of this country. The favourite chapter, to which he fhould dire et his attention with peculiar plea fore, would be that in which this enlightened au thor would contemplate the benign effeas of the Protellant Religion, as conducive to the peace, or der, and happinefs of the community, and to the integrity and glory of the Britith Co- flitution. The j true quellion now was, if the privilev, p.orted Catholics were to be extended ?.The r,f Ireland had ailed with great wifJom in : regard to this enquiry, and had granted to them all that va s either necefrary or difcreet. But the Hon:-.ura!):e Gentleman, on the contrary. raid, becaure we had given fo much, we ought liberally to make them a prefent of the reit. The convcrre of this he throdj rather maintain, becaufe he could not confider for mer generofity as a kilt motive for future prodiAa lity ; but, however, if more fliould be fit to be con ceded, a reafon Ids inconvenient might be eatily difcovered for the donation. The dircretion of our anceaors had crated a lirong barrier to protect thi Conttitution ; we were now required to admit the Catholics. and fot this purport to hurl down do ftupendous monument of their induliry and wild. m Mr. GRATTAN explained that be had not int;-, mated the probability of any reparation of the two countries, if this motion were rejeCled. Sir W. SCOTT raid, he certainly fu underftooj the Honourable Member. Mr. GRATTAN" I faid, if the Parliament at Tented to the calumny propagated, that the Catho. tics were traitors to their King and Country, it would lay the foundation if filch a feparation. It was not the rejeaion of the Petition, but the adoption of the calumny to which I adverted." Dr. LAURENCE fool:nted the motion; vindi cated the alfertion of his deceafed friend (Mr. Burkej —took an hittorical view of the quellion ; pointed out feveral errors in the citations of an Hon. and Learned Member (Dr. Duigenan) ; and concluded with attributing the dircovery of the Trial by Jury, incidentally and collaterally, to theConncilor Lateran. Mr. FOSTER-1 , I Mould think I negleaul my duty, if I did not fay a few words on the pretent fubjea, confideting the part I have taken in it in an. other place on a former occafion. From what has been laid, it would be naturally concluded that there were laws now in exiflence direfted againft the Ca- Itholirs of Ireland. Where are thole laws ? This de fctiption of perfons polrefs the Caine civil liberty which is enjoyed by the Proteltants. What do they now slefire ? Nnt political liberty, but politicalpower. This is all that remains to you to bettow, for every thing elk is conceded ; of all the reit they arc in complete pnlfcf on. (if cry of No ! fro ! from the Op pkiun Benches.) If I am thought to be in error, it Is eafy for me to enter into the catalogue of civil claim, and to thew the whole is granted. You are now defired to judge of the future by pall experience —they tell you, it you coincide with their propel tions, you will combine their colleitive ftrength with your own; the population of your formidable ene my amounts to 36 millions, yours is only le millions. and you deprive yourfelves of one fifth of the na tional vigour ; condefcend to thefe demands, and it will he inttantly rellored. " Is it not known that the Irifh competed a prin cipal and honourable part of the army under Lord Hutchinson, by which Egypt was vanquithed ? Is it not alto proclaimed to tee glory of that people, the gallant Nelfon was greatly indebted to their valour in the hour of danger, for the conquell he obtains ed over the fleet of the enemy on the coati of that country ? Is not the Britifh army supplied with Tome of its motl courageous recruits from the fame fource ? and are we now to be told that we are deprived, br withholding fuel conce(lions, of the aflifiance of the inhabitants of my native Me. to repel the dan gers to which the Empire is expofed ? Then it is laid their loyalty is not to the throne unfettered and unconditional ; it is a fpecies of loyalty fubjeift to lii- Isolations, given only on certain conditions they would impose. Is this the fentiment of the great mats of the people ? Do they know what Emancipation is, whick is included in thefe flipulations? Enquire of them, and tome will tell you it is freedom from tythcs others, exemption from all taxes ; all will give ac counts of it palpably cow radiaory, and none of them can correaly explain in what it centrals. They can not want what they do not comprehend. It is not. therefore, the lower ranks who require this: let us then attend for a moment to thole in a luperior firna !inn. Are we to doubt Coe loyalty of the higher con dition of fociety among the Catholics ? It is not to be fuppofed that there would pay In indifferent a com pliment to themlelves and to each ether, as to repro. lent they felt any thing like this backloi s renriaed loyalty. I know peifonallv and intimately many of thole gentlemen who have fgned this petition, and I am confident they are as loyal charaaeis. as good litjtas, as virtuous in private, and as independent in public life, as any individuals in the kingdom.--- ,',?cry cf hear. hear ! from the Upp fti^n fist of the !haft.) Then the q tieaion reverts, will you, or will you not grant to them political power ? Can you do fo ? You mull fire look to the fituation of England, where I eflort the Catholics do not enjoy the rights paid - eel their idiot,: citizens in Ireland. Firtt put the Eng huh Crtholics upon the foisting of their Western bre t lir en—( cry 'pear, be tr !)—then give to the Catho • lics of both iflands a feat in Par!iainent—(Hear, hear, hear, bear!)—Sett reflea an inilant when you have dont all this, where is the fecurity for the Prete:tart Church ? Can trier, under the influence of loch pt;s ciples, frame thole iows for the proteaion of the Piii• teltant faith which it is your bounden duty to pro vide ? Who enaas tilde lam:. on which the rights of the whole nation are supported ? It is the Lords 6;•i• ritual and Temporal, and the Commons of England. The liierai city depends upon the Parliament, and will yoii till your leOlarive affemblies with thole alio are !made to it ? What infatuation ! to give this ats thority to men who acknowledge the fupremacy of a fnrei t -zn spiritual prince. Look to the pail. In I 7? s fornething was given, in 17ha more was granted, and in 1793 the Parliament conceded more than was required. I confers I thought the donation was tot) libt!xl, but beirg made, I did not think it necefrary to internale. It Parliament Mould atrent to whet is demanded, the Catholics will not even then be ta ;i,fied ; and indeed how are we to expe& fentiments of gratitude from thole who are confiantiv under the influence of an attire and ditcontented . Clergy. From the Print-Rant Minitlers they will receive no admonition; they withdraw in difgntl from the pro fane indruaor. Give them the power, and rely upon it they will come forward with new demands. They will prefently cape& equality in the Eccicfiatticol el tabliihments, and from this they will proceed to fit petiotity. Our numbers, they will argue, are in Ire land greater than yours ; the majority ought to de cide, and the Roman Catholic Church flail be parr