Star. — London, England, 1819-11-25 00:00:00

if( ff , . ! -, , • : . ', .. r;,~. 'I: : ~. eat rest on the words of Gentlemen of the highest character and respectability. Mr. EGERTO'S BRYDGES admitted the neces sity of inquiry, but at the same time, he consider that the House of Commons was not the place where it eontd.trecart led • ost 'affextually. .The-Magistrates fait as anaious as the. Rouse cou l d be to have the case fully investigated. .._. .. -' • - -•-. . - Sir wittiANT DE cßEsproNy colitend'ed that the hint Act was an Act Cif warning, which its it* Manchester case had notbeen given,- and conferred no powerao disperse the pteople i till an hour after it had been read. He wished te'stat'e 'an important fact. He knew - a venerable Clergyman, a man of piety and character,' whet, impelled by curiosity to see Mr. Hant, had waded through the crowd assem bled at Manchester, as far'as the hustings. Having satisfiedhis curiosity, he was returning as fast as his age and the multitude would permit, when he heard the Yeomanry galloping with great velocity. They stopped, and formed in line opposite the house in which the Magistrates were sitting. Ile thin saw some person come out of that house and make a short address to the soldiers. They then clashed their swords together, dashed forwards, and forced their way into the crowd. He saw Hunt seized, and the flags torn; after which the Cavalry turned round, and• commenced the work of destruction and death—(hear) —he then endeavoured to escape through a street op posite the hustings ; but when he came there, he found soldiers placed across the street. He entreated them to let him pass; but no—they would not allow him, and forced him back into the scene of action! He then expected to be cut down, when he recollec ted that a friend of his had a house in the place; he hurried towards it ; his friend saw and admitted him, and once in safety, he repaired to the window. He then saw a poor man take shelter under the same eoor, pursued by that same trumpetel, who cut re. peatedly at him, and even tried to force his horse up the steps of the door, to reach him more effectually; the man ultimately leaped into the area for safety. When such facts as this Were proved on such respect able authority, he trusted that nobody in the House would be hardy enough to vote against an-Amend ment iusisting on the necessity of inquiry. Lord NUGENT complained that Ministers were not contented with assuming the fact of illegality of the Manchester Meeting, but pretended that tt had been admitted to be so by his Right Honourable Friend last night. This he denied. It was from the fact of that admiision'that depended the life of the inquiry now called for. The evidence given by the Noble I,ord (Castlereagh) was inadmissible, • because it was not evidence in chief, but founded on suppo sitions, and because he had made himself a party to those transactions, by, advising the Royal thanks to be expressed on the subject. The decision of the Grand Jury at Lancaster had been adverted to, as if it had tried the legality of the Meeting; but it was no such thing. The question was merely, whether certain individuals should be put upon their trials under Lord Ellenborough's Act? and had nothing to do with legality. Even had the Lancaster Grand Jury pronounced the Manchester Meeting illegal, the country had the unanimous declaration of another Jury, the Coroner's Jury at Oldham, that the Meet ing was perfectly legal. Granting all that his Ma jesty's Ministers supposed, it would not proceed one single step towards vindicating their conduct for having advised so precipitate a letter of thanks. If it were even right to employ any military farce, he conceived that it ought not to have been the Yeo manry, as many of them were the masters of the poor wretches who were crying for wages. Au im portant fact had been stated to him, on authority which perfectly satisfied. him of its truth, and which he was ready to bring to the Bar of the House. It was, that issues of wine and brandy bad been served out to the Yeomanry before ' the charge !—(Hear).— Ile had also been informed, on the same authority, that some days after the 16th of August, a number of Constables had met is one of the public streets, broken their staves, and burnt them, declaring they would no longer serve under the orders of such Ma gistrates. An Honourable Gentleman opposite had told the House that the Charts of Law were open. —Who were these confiders in the uprightness of Juries? The very Amisnrities who, two years ago, had supported the Indemnity Bill---(year, hear). — What had the House been told,. when action's were brought against Lord Sidmouth for an undue exer cise of power ? That Juries were not a fit 'Pribtrnal to decide on such cases. And no* it was Parliarttint that was represented as the unfit Trribunal-411ear, hear). Was there to , be one law for the Radichls and another for the People ?, What was the House to he called upon to do ? Were die) , .tolimit the Li berty of the Preis ? to pass a Bill - of Ilidemnity ? or to Suspend the Habeas Corliti4t 1 It was only to misgovernment that the great'ailiejaei of Thitions were to, be attributed. The r eOple of England were naturally loyal. peaceable, and 'religious. What had altered that charieter„lif it wai altered ? * seas gri eved when he heaK4 the Hogotd-allole Mettrter for Walther speak last. night Of dite prevalence of blas phemy, and he trusted alai tsetoie Ott Religion of that . llonourable 'and slifluigotshed indlirdual, had led him into an einsviated,lrlief on that point. 7— _What effect bad the trtl'of"at . POOr 4teteh,Ciiiiie; produced ? Had net. hiibaithied attempts tOdt grade Religion, wilted,* thrill of boyror . through' the w h o l e Court, ,vied prbdtsse4 'a iiidict of condeinni tion ? If a split ofblispheior. and sedition existed, it was Dot to be met 14. dialigsnd 'chains. But let the People be enitirofed. - Tertfade and matt& factures revive. Open a Commercial Treaty with South America ; or, if that - cannot. be done, !et air jirithful oily, Ferdinand, be 'piesialled npi?n to °pin some of his ports to our . Mercita.ndiie. Those were the means of changing We ;spirit of People. He then combated the reit:kll:al of r..ordritzwilliam from his post. Lei the Miaittert bet4aie 'lest, whilst they attempted loflegracle,stic4 a manitf having ihewn' a p a ternal feeling to WO Peope, ankthe Constitu- tioual jealousy of atitngliainap, they devaded their' ow n,Sovereign 7 -4,p'ioitio - K,lr_the Muse should' separate without .airitiding:„ltlief to' the People, it' nught, perhaps, give rise to icenesablood and ruin. Fo r it would be said that which . the . Magistrates had done, bad not only recettvectrroin the , a hasty tg vote of thanks, but alit i e Sarliament had contributed' to screen them . twit. ratatteities of their' con. dact—(ileti;,' heairltein Mr. NV ARREN had understood, that on the former night the illegality of the Matot-IMlPT:Meeting bad bEen tdmitthd by situ Gentlemen opposite but the inter:l4l''Nutof's:night hid mate them limit the general asseitibn. ''Nut he had thought, that t he able and elotpfetn . t of the Right Housitable Gentleman opposite had removed all doubts on that head. That speechtiad been termed special pleading. though nothing'could be further removed from the descrip tion of special pleading, than such a speech. A few days before the Meeting at Manchester, a letter had heenient limit Coventry by Hunt, stating the neces sitr of making a demonstration of physical force. It had been proposed, in the first instance, that a Re. Presentative for Manchester should be returned to Parliament, in imitation of what had taken place at Birmingham. 'The idea had, however, been after wards abandoned--(Hear, hear, the Opposi tion) —Many thousands had marchedl Manchester in military movement, with Hunt at their head. One of the banners had a bloody dagger, and another " Equal Representation or Death . ' The conduct of the Magistrates had not only been legal, but com mendable, as facts had proved the Meeting to be illegal. If the Magistrates had acted wrong, they were liable to an information, and the result of any inquiry at the Bar of the House, would be to send the parties to the ordinary tribunals. Had the Ma gistrates been guilty, the Bills preferred by Hunt would have been found. It had been asserted by an Honourable Gentleman, that the Houie did not pos sess the confidence of the People, and yet he wished that the House should. take cognizance of the case. Mr. PHILLIPS contended that his Honourable . Friend had not even discussed the question, whether. the Meeting of the 16th of August Warlegal or ille gal ? But supposing it to have been illegal, there still was a great difference between that and being riotous.' He was aware of the situation of the County of Lan caster, and of the faits preceding that .Meeting, which had created alarm: It was therefore the morn necessary that the Magistrates should proceed in their interference in a manner calculated to command the approbation of all reasonable menu—(Hear, hear). — He had hitherto carefully avoided every thing that could unfairly bias his opinion on the subject, but he must own that there appeared to be such a difference between 'the statement of facts, as, itt his opinion, rendered an inquiry necessary. Thi SOLICITOR-GENERAL then rose, and be gan by , saying, that from what he had already heard,l lie was more than ever convinced of the inconve niency of trying this question before the House— (Cries of Hear).—'l"here was at this moment an inquiry on foot - before a Coroner—(Hear, hear)-- which might affect the lives of several individuals against whom the charge had been laid—(Hear, hear). It was yet in a certain stage—( Hear, hear)—one side had been already heard, but the o ther only par tially, in consequence of the unjustifiable proceedings' taken to 'interrupt the course of justice—(Loud cries of Hear, hear).—Yet, whilst this grave charge was l pending, an Honourable Member had thought fit fa call the attention of the House to an inquiry into a part of the evidence, accompanied with most inflam matory observations—(Hear, hear)—so to interrupt the course of Justice, and commit the greatest breach of it, that *e'er ytt was - attempted in any Court— (Hear, hear).—Allusion, he added, had last night been made to the Meeting at Manchester ) upon which nothing was heard -for the lasCtbree months, but that it was perfectly peaceable, and that the Magistrates were unwarranted in dispersing it. The Right Ho nourable Gentleman who opened the debate, if he understood him rightly, avoided the question of its loyalty, and did not earit was loyal. Mr. TIERNEY distinctly doled having ever said the Meeting was illegal. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL could not be posi tive to the words spoken, for be argued more from the impression made on his mind at themoment, and the tontext of the Right Honourable Gentleman's other observations, that he himself (Mr. Tierney-) was internally convinced, it was not legal—(Heer).— His successor in the debate, he observed,-did•not ven ture to say the Meeting was legal, but an Honourable dud Learned Friend of his (Mr. Scarlett) who fol lowed after, wad' less guarded, for he admitted its illegality in the plainest terms. Mr. SCARLETT rose en the instant, to explain, amid cries of " Cteir, chair." He appealed to the Chair, if it was candid or Parliamentary to make use of what fell from him involuntarily, but which he explained away, as hetrustell, satisfactorily, last sigilt—( Hear, hear). He subnsitted-, that when thus directly misrepresented, it , was a duty is him to. explain. • • • . Mr. BA/ORES rose to Order. He observed, that it was not competent to a Member to interfere when another was speaking, but he was et liberty to explain afterwards. The SPEAKER said, that by the usages of the Hove; when any thing which fell-from one Member Was tssiiinterpreted or inisioldersfetsdby another, an eitillitteation was given at the instant, to save time, and oftn"vacionsly and thankfully received by the Memberrn eieseessioa. Bat he could Claim no right to interrupt the Member speaking, and could only explain when the alter Honourable Member had dime speaking. • The SOLICITOR -GENERAL resuming said, 'that if his'•Learned Friend had only waited a. few moments, he *bald have'explained the grounds - upon whith -he made use of the words drat fell from him. The opinion' e'en by his Honourable and Learned Friend was upon the promises of the facts stated by the Noble Lord (Castlereagh) on his right, being true. In truth, the Noble 'Lord had stated no facts' at all, except what took place after the Meeting, which could not of Course affect the question of its legality, and therefore his Learned Friend in' the honest candour of his heart, was obliged to pro-, naunce upon it—(Hear, hear). He proceeded to ob serve, that there existed nothing to warrant the charge that the Legal Advisers of the Crown had re tottonended to stifle inquiry. The principles of the 'Refbtmets, as they were called, were, Annual Par %dine* Election by Ballot, and Uniierral Suffrage; or, in ether words, the overthrow of the Constitn tien—(lleae; steer)—and their , language was; that the fate of Charles and James awaited the of' the kingdom. Hunt, who had no Manchester, had been sent for to Meetih . g, Who 'on the 25th of Jolly 'at a similar Meeting at' Smithfield, load' asittted,• that the Acts of 1800 were not binding on the country , 4 ret 6 .. the hiatie' sal Debt ought not to be td—Weei t free: In fact, gears hid been ' to : prosecute him en minally till the proceed .et Smithfield had been I sunk in the : superior iT ance a those at M'ae chester. Harrison, who lag held similar language at Stockport, had been traced to London, and beets arrested there. To she same party belonged John son and Cathie, who had inscribed over his shop - -; " O ffi ce for Republican and' Deistical Writings." Hunt had stated that Meetings had been held for the purpose of playing at soldiers, and • that many .at those Meetings had formerly belonged to the Army and the Mditia—(Hear, hear). A Meeting of such a nature as to occasion alarm, had been defined by the Lord Chief Justice to be a riotous Meeting, though no overt act of riot had been committed.— The standards bore mottoes inconsistent with the principles of the Constitution, and the Magistrates had acted with the utmost caution and prudence.— The only question was, whether the proceedings were, or were not, of a treasonable character ? His Majesty's Ministers had had no previous knowledge of what was intended tUbe done, nor had they given any directions whatever to the Magistrates is to the line of conduct they were to pursue. Whatever the Magistrates did, was doue by their own authority, with a view to guard against the mischiefs which were apprehended from the Meeting—(Gieers ,from different parts of the House). Sir FRANCIS BURPETT said, it was not his. in tention to trespass long on the patience of the House, but he should conceive himself guilty of a dereliction of his duty to his country if he did not accept the in vitation which had been thrown out from the oppo site side of the House, and speak his mind fully and intelligibly on the critical circumstances in which the country was now placed. Our present, difficulties and dangers arose, not from any external force, but from the internal situation of the country, which was too obvious : to every eye and to every ear, and was too fully impressed on every mind to require any descrip tion. There was not a disinterested man in the coun try who did not feel that our thief difficulties arose from a systeah of taxation, which the Country was no longer able to bear, and which was the principal cause of the disaffection so loudly complained-of ; but that disaffection, if it existedto the extent that had been stated, could never be removed except by means very different from those-fecommended in the Speech from the Throne. The advocates of violent measures would never look at the comes of dame evils they complained of ; and others, whO were ignci rant of those causes, recommended nethieg but pal liatives. In the course of this debate, he had heard a:variety of most extraordinary positions ; and indeed he had heard language, which, in former times, would have been most unconstitutional. Such doc trines would net have been hazarded by any Merle= tier when he first had a seat in that House. In 4ed there were, on the part of the advocates • Mbristers, so many contradictory opinions and ar guments, that they all led to one conclusion, which was, to shew the absolute necessity for inquiry.— The Learned Gentleman who had Just sat ‘ down, had made a speech which furnished the best argureeet that could be urged in favour of an inquiry;. as much so, indeed, as any speech that had been deli vered in the course of the debate. But if any thing could surprise him more than another,. it was the speech of another Learned Gentleilan,- whom he Might still call his friend, and who had formerly agreed with him in most political questions. These two Learned Gentlemen had advanced arguments aed assertions which were directly contrary to those of the Noble Lord (Castlereagh); a circumstance which he could account for in no calier way except that of their being in the profession of the law. In deed, there were no persons to whose authority he would listen with so little conviction on'all constitu tional questions as the Gentlemen of the long robe: and with respect to the two Learned Gentlemen, he 'must say of them, 'that in their defence 9f the GO vernment they had strewn nothing of the great skill evinced by the. NOble Lord in the defence be. had made. That Noble Lord had adopted the best line of defence Which could have been made; for without adyerting.to the conduct or character of the Meeting at Manchester, he took the question np at the mordent of the arrest offifr. Hunt ; and said at once, that up to that time the Magistrates had no right to interfere. The Learned Solicitor-General, however, said, that all the proceedings that took place before that Meet ing were illegal, and even treasonable. The unfor tunate men, however, who attended that Meeting had t. idea that they were committing treason ; for by .. r own acts it was evident they conceived they had re right, according to law, to do what they did. For the last fifty years the people of this country were loudly calling for Parliamentary Refoim ; all the Meetiags that were lately held professed to have the lime object ; and surely that *as no reason why they should be put to death by military execution ? The 'Learned. Gentlenian talked a great deal about the • . ners that had been displayed at the Meeting, and particularly of grit one on.which the words " Liberty • Death" were inscribed . Was it, he.would a s k, a crime to use these words? Why the words had al waysheen inscribed on the heart of every English man, and there could be no offence in placing them on a banner—(Hear ). Whether it was desirable for any gond purpose that such a Meeting as that of Manchester should have been held was a question which the House had nothing to 'do with, and into the merits of which he was not bound to enter; but he would saj, that the people who had met there had committed no act of high treason, nor any other offence for which they deserved to be given- up to military,, execution. There might have been some cause for legal proceedings against some of the per :sons attending that Meeting ; but nothing which oc curred there could furnish a• justifiable reason for al tering the laws of the country. He defied the Learn ed Gentlemen opposite to shew that there was any such cause; a and On that point (said the Hon. Ha rene„t) I am ready to meet them here, or anywhere 9f poil li as ear h , e h .s e h o o r u y d . never -On r a e l-l q ti t i l l ' e e neat C ( o L° nsi k itt e io rie nal s any legal elticidation ; he wanted nothing. else but common sense and common hone s ty. - I n d ee d h e did thin - ' Learned - tohfes:thcical g) :, his treason, the pressing their satisfaction at the sheddina a F e m ood . let their countrymen. Such an expres e sio n t * *tee to the Prince Regent; but it was not. 7 ing esshi had dn, actually for his heart eem m u i . t a t s e d in ptient.• If, however, the people composing t he Me had no right to use military force in the th ei did. *The Riot Act, which was a disgrace t o Statute Book, it seemed, was too ler' f or -r this cstsion ; that law, severe and unjust as it wa s , es ,„ r said, if people did not disperse, after being warted to do so, that soldiers should be sent to kill them, The ' and if they did not disperse' intent and meaning of the Act was simply this , th a t ' were guilty of felony. Butthro if the people who composed the Meeting sere ' 4 4 . Vitally riotous, or likely to do mischief; ould have notice s n u o c t h ice no to tic d e i , sper the s; bare circumstance of a number of people meeting, w a r no more a riot than it was treason, if there were no :: some overt acts manifesting a disposition to The declaration of any number of persons expressin their womanish fears, that some mischief might en. sue from the Meeting, was not sufficient to make it illegal ; nor was it sufficient for any foolish fellow t o go and make oath that great danger was to be ap. prehended ; that a city was to be set on fire, and that the inhabitants were to be murdered ! At •11 events, supposing the Meeting to have been ever so illegal, the only thing that should have been done wa s , to take up the ringleaders ; and not to shoot, cut down, and massacre the people indiscriminately. At t h e time when the Riot Aot•aeas passed, no military w ere thought.of;. and even - ttle lawyers, who afterwards defended - the employment of military for suppre ss . ing riots, did so on the ground that soldiers we n a part of the people, enjoying civil rights equally with the other subjects of the country. On that principle it was, that Lord Mansfield had said, that British citizens should not be excluded from the right of assisting in putting down riots, merely because they wore red coats and carried arms.... But surely men, who were secluded from the rest of society, were not to be called citizens; nor we re the lives of the subjects to be at the mercy of men, who could only be considered as mercenaries. He trusted that English soldiers would never be so employed ; he trusted that no Minister would dare to emplotthern.tn, -and that if he did, the soh. Biers would refuse to obey him—(Hear, hear, hea r :), lam not, (said - the worthy Baronet) so apprehensive of the' conduct of British soldiers as the Roman Nis description of a mercenary soldier would induce-. Peetore is hurls stadium juriampre Parentis " Condere the ju!leas, vavidnie In itseera -Petri " Conjugis, invita riongsm tame st on dextra." tam satisfied that- the feeling and principle of my military countrymen would be of a different descrip. tion..-Irwas said that all the proceedings at the Meet. ing if so, Mr. Hunt was the person mat culpable of: an others, as he was the author of the proceedings ; and why was he not taken away ? By doing so, the head would be temoved from the body, and the body would o be impotent. If treasonable proceedings had been going forward, the Magistrates never dreamed of them; for Mr. Hunt called ups them to announce his intention -el being proem a the Meeting ; and if they thought he was carryings treasonable. practices ; why did they not take him up? Why did they not prevent the anischief? Why wait for that precise time when the people were all assem. bled, and then give them up to military executions the very moment when the warrant was on the point of being put in force ? But, instead of this, they ac tually prevented the people from dispersing when the military Were sent to attack theta ; for the prin cipal outlet through which they might have made their escape, Was blocked up by a line of ondiers, so that the multitude were cooped in without the possi bility of getting away. Gentlemen then might talk of a conspiracy on the - part of the populace and their leaders ; but he would maintain, that what he now described .was a foul consOracy against the lives of the people—(Hear, hear, hear). If some individuals were now seeking for redress is Courts of Law, that would give no redress to the People of England for the violation of their Liberties, The People felt that their Constitution had been via hated - by the military execution to which an unarmed multitude had been subjected; they looked.upon Mi nisters as being at the bottom of the whole; and they called for that satisfaction which no proceedings is• stituted by individuals in Courts of Law could give them. Alt these things originated in that system of Police which was now under the management of Lord Sidmouth, and which bore a great resemblance to that Police which existed under the old Govern men of France—(Hear, hear).—The Learned Gen tleman talked of an Inquest-going•forward, and of prosecution carried on by an Attorney in London: . but this .was not the w ay t o sat i s fy t h e P eo ple o f England for the violation of their rights. No Inquest would satisfy the People —no; nor any thing which tould be done by that respectable and meritorious Gentleman, to whose exertions the whole country was indebted : he meant Mr. Harmer—(Neer, hear?. 'N o proceeding that was now going forw.mi would rbe sufficient ; fin a verdict must be obtained before ' that House for the whole People of England. Surely it was not prejudging a question, when persons only spoke of what they knew to be the facts connected with that question. Here was ample evidence of a great crime having been committed ; and when . spoke of that crime, and the parties concerned in it, he did no more than accuse them—but not prejudge them. If he* had seen a man commit murder, !le certainly should have no right to knock his brii..os out, but he would h av e a r i g h t t o accuse him of tee murder, and require that he be brought to trial.-- Then when he found that men had been massacred at Manchester, he had a right to make a charge agailoo and call ler the trial of the persons who commioed that massacre. If the House then should shut their eyes and their ears to those acts, and refuse inquiet', the Country would* judge - of them. The Horse might vote against but t?Qt vote would not satisfy the Public. if itosluaulcae said that there were dangerous ItefOrmert.inahe Country, let thrill be answered, not by atise, - bur by acts. 'the Re-. 'furnaces said, that nothing could be more absurd thm a Parliantent o the majority of whose Members came from rotten; boroughs. In opposition to this, many .Gentlemen maintained, that the House of Commons 'Was practically good, and constituted an efficient Be presentation. of the;. People. Let the House then 'prove this to be the case, -by • doing. soineshing that should appear to the Nation to be practically gcc.i. -••• --••••••••••• •••••••••xj • auuccy SIC UM the present Ruler not think it was quite correct in one Learned Gentle- no connection with man (Mr. Warren) to speak in the manner he did on to preside at the certain points, on the discussion of which he might Fey had_ presided hareaftkv bane occasion to sit as Judge. Su thus aid, at which he Sfanr... Meetlng had been,illegal, as was asserted Pirliament sinee4y iied tentlemiti, - then he would say; chit :ountry, and that the conduct of Ministers was illegal in publicly ex- _ -'• 1 - ..,~.; -mot. —L .r♦ .- , . JA....-. • • •-•••••,. • • - • I `! c I I I I . e I 'k. ._ ~ b: be r 1