Star. — London, England, 1815-05-31 00:00:00

vote for them when it was avowed that no set-twhy . . I riented . from IMMO Bii.ihe Empress Wittig their determination not to meet eitha the views of Claims to shrew kora whence the danger from'them , placed• !tie odder etheeeuelloillince elf the great the Pope, o_r those of tho Ptoiestint portion of Atte erase, before they required that the commit overthe .Priests. IV stated thieieelheiv the gross niisonder- 'Emp re. ieven the etetcript of' M. Quaranrotti had appointment of the Catholic Bishops should be giten standing on this poise. Ladle as he had been an ad- dot been rece iv ed t y the m wit h g ratitude, thorrgh it to Government. He appealed to the past conduct of . vocate for coneetsioneto the Catholics, he had never sCas the only means, of removintothe objections ; and those Bishops, and instanced the Rebellions tof 1715 e contended free, them ott the score of right. n evi con- the author et it was hell up public execution, 1746, and 1798, when they had not only' been loyal tended againkthe right. The Hoese Is id a rit to while even' the Pope himself was not spared. There t'iemcelves, but exerted themselves with the greatest exclude or to admit elle Catholics to further co lic es. were other objections gaited, such as the increasing effort, and often with the greatest success, to pre. , elpns as it saw proper. He would wish his Honour- of the power of the Crown, hy vesting in it the ap serve the Wyatty of all the Catholics of the kingdom. Ole Friend (Sir H. Parnell) had brought forward poi:tenon of the Catholic Bishopo When it was Why then, if they had proved t'heir loyalty at that Resolutions fit to conciliate all his Mejesty's subjectse supposed that the POpe WAS • favourablee.o the Veer, time, at periods Of grinding oppression and persecu- .and he would gladly support them. But they were the Catholic leaders turned round, and e tend other tion, why should they not prove it now, if they bad far from it. Perhaps they mey conciliate four mil- objects to object to ; indeed, they appear(' I to heve nu oppression or persecution ' to complain of ? The lions of Catholics in Ireland, but there were fourteen tie view but that of keeping Alive a 'spit it. of incur- Church of Ireland was also very distinct millions of Protestants, who look with a jealousy to rection and therefore any hopes' that die appear b e . from the See of Rome.; and in nothing did the latter any further concessions to - the Catholics. Was not .fore the document ot M. Quarentotti,exite ue longer. interfere with the former, but hi marriages, fees of even 'the course the Honourable. Baronet had taken He should vote against the motion because he felt Clergy, and Canonical Institution. Nine as Canoni. reprobated-by half the Catholic population of Ireland? that it Was impossible at this time to pro. , te - e any cai Institution was the only one of those, points of in. Did the Honourable Baronet seriously approve of it measure to which Parliament ought to console. We terference, which was supposed in any manner dan. even himself ? As to the oath* mentioned in the 'Re— should never b, ele eci oblain those securities which, geroto, lie wiitild 'beg to explain this subject. On 'solutions it was wholly abrogated. It was only im in the present dehee'd and degraded state of the Ca the demise of a Bishop, there were three names sent posed on those who accepted situations under the tholics, ought :and must ever be insisted on. 'elle to Rome to have a successor arpointed from diem, Crown—end this oath Dr. Milkier said no Catholic admission of their pietcesires betide a Committee and a recommendation of the one whom the Clergy priest toted take. There was a clause in the Ho- oould only be an indueeMent for them to persevere, , aed Bishops of Ireland. preferred. There was scarcely nourable Baronet's Resolutions guile to capacitate in the hope that they might be complete ly were succere ss. an instance within the last century , where the P o pe the Catholics to fal all officese-(Hear, / t ear.) This lid ; but if, on the contrary, the motion did nut confin in to this recommendation ; so that , in then would c a p acitate them to fi ll the Protestant Sees jected, there could be no doubt that the Catholics , fact, it was not the Pore but the Bishops of Ireland and the Ecclesiastical Offices in Doctors' Commons. 'would soon resolve to Abandon those violent men who appointed. It had been formerly reared that any in. Now, how was this at all reconcilible with common had deluded them by false expectations, and thee terleience on the part of the Pope would be (hinge- reason? And the Resolutions would also remove ell would then come at least to solicit as a boon what runs, because of having his person iu the power of restrictions and checks. Even Queea leery left over they now demanded mrs a right, and no longer pre- 1 . Bonaparte. But now this cause of apprehension no the Catholics all those check, of prervunire, mortmain, suine to make those pretensions which ' never could be longei existed. He was led to dwell etimething more eke,. which the modern Catholic! would have re. granted by she Constitution. fully on this point, because he felt that the appoint. .moved. He had on a former occasion called for se - Mr. MAURICE FITZGERALD could not sup went of Bishops was time only obstacle 0 Catholic 'veral documents on this question, yet there was but pose, diet after the lest decision there remained any' Emancipation, and he hoped that the Catholics may 'a single one of them on the table. He would not, man so insensible to the rights and privileges of the , telex something on this side, and that the other.side however, oppose going into the Committee,. though people, as to resist the measure now proposed. He may advance to meet them. In regard to the Reno: he would not support it, because he did not see that denied that the statement of the Right Hon. Gentle lotions which he bad the honour to submit to the it could produce any benefit. He would not resist any man ( Mr, Yorke) was corret, that the petitioners I louse, he submitted for the purpose of conciliation,: thing likely to throw the least new light on the subject. had et:timed as .t tight the enactment of the Bill and to lay down clearly the extent tat the Catholic Mr. 'volt Kl. expressedhis surprise at the conduct which they had printed, and which he had read. grievances and claims. Many Protestanti he • knew of the Honourable Baronet who spoke last. With They only claimed to berestored to what the Come. imagined that the Catholic Claims went to some very a full view of all the dangers which would result tution held to be the rights of the subject. He trusted subverting ineasuse, and did they not imagine so, from granting the claims of the Catholics; he still that the House would feel that there could be no ob.' weuld be as zealous for, as ter were now averse to would not oppose taking them into consideration jection to going into the Committee ; and if this were those claims. But his Resolutions would shew that But he (Mr. Yorke) could not follow this line of refused, they would be Acting in opposition to their there was no measure required or proposed. Nothing conduct, and he would vote against going into the former vote. Out of this Committee might arise the was to be taken from the Protestant, though some= Committee. The Bill brought in in the Session of mewls of adopting modifications which might enable thing was to be granted to the Catholic. With re. 1813, was full of restrictions, yeenow it was sought the House, in another Session, to prepare for come yard to the matter of those 'Resolutions, the three* to remove all restrictions. The minor points of the piecing the subject, by embodying their present views. first of them went to remove difficulties and resttic. concessions lie would grant, but on the greater points, He considered not one of the views of those Gentle., Lions with regard to property: - Many imagined that the paints which essentially endangered the Constitu- men who had spoken against the motion to be fair theCatholicshevenothing to complainot on thispoint; lion, he would .require securities before be could arguments for rejecting the Committee. Did their but this was not the fact ;liar if the Catholic possessor: grant them. The Honourable Baronet said, he had claims for unrestricted emancipation call upon the of any freehold property did not 'take the oaths and. brought forward his Resolutiuns with i view of see House to enforce that claim ? They did net state deelaratioos of 177 e and 1793, he could be stripped cuiity and conciliation. But what conciliation was this in the way of diteation : they only wished that of that property by. any of his family who turned to be expected , when there wets such a difference be- nothing should be left behind, in the way of informa. Protestant and informed against hiin. Aninstance tween the Catholics themselves, between the different lion, to the utmost extent that it could be afforded ; of this lately occurred in Ireland with regard to a .bodies of time Cateolics of Ireland, and between the and it was therefore - perfectly consistent to enter into person of the name of M•lvoy. All that the Catho. Cetholics of Ireland and England. One of the the Committee, to consider how far their pretensions lies asked was equal benefits, equal adventages, and ' English Catholic Petitions from Sheffield, asked for. were justifiable, and to know what seeurity it was ne-1 equal duties. It any concession to them tees to take: unrestricted concession unaccompanied with any se. cessary to exact from them. All the objections t eat from souther any right, or ally benefit, he would not curity. Zr was argued in favour of such concessions, he heard with respect to the Veto were extremely ir sec - it. The Right Honourable Gentleman in the that it was by our Catholic ancestors our Constitu- relevant to the proposition for going into the Com. Chair (eie Sive ker) and other Gentlemen who voted lien 'it .d been formed. but it was with our Pagan 'meter; and the Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. I with him on tee Ramer discussion of the subject, hit and eaxon ancestors that it had originated. It might Yorke) had been completely misinformed respecting. exeressed ibex o e illion that every coo...sere, 'srevol 'be toad it was bp our Catholic ancestors matured. any attempt to influence the Pope. So far from it, be went -d, ohiehotiale. evith safety be seamed; and Yes, it was 4 Henry VIII. and Queen Wiry. he could assure him that a distinguished rson was pe . now on his way to this country from Rome, with a under th...e cirrumstances he did not coteceve how i Those who say this, do not know what our Constitu the House ..could rouse going auto the Committee, as 'lion is. Let the Resolutions of the Honourable BA- preposition which lie thought would prove highly ac. it was so tully evideni that the removal of those dif- ronet be via-paired with the Bel of last year , ,_ and ceptable to the British G overnment ; and thereto?, if &allies, with regard to property,' could, without any there would cc found a yes,' rest difference. Theme the Committee, should continue to sit, such objections I danger, begvanted. The other Restitutions went 10 were some of the Resolut one to which he had no ob. would be removed as might be thought adverse to. retwee the difficult es and restrictions with regard to jection, as thow with rasp ct to estates, to marriages, the measure. The discipline of the Catholics in their religious worship, marriage, and education. Even -and to education, and f the Honourable Baronet own Church was a matter of conscience; but the now, religious worship was not wholly free to the I would bring in a Bill to remove all disabilities on Veto would have the effect of placing in the hands of ' Catholic soldiery. When he had formerly the honour ; these points, it should hive his most strenuous sup- Protestant politicians the AN!: of the Roman Catho. to bring this subject under the consideration of the port. But his Resolutions were fur the purpose of lie Church, and this would be liable to the most ma- House, be was told that there were orders given at granting every thing without any security except an terial objections. Such an interference would give the Wir Office to give full liberty on this subject to o a th . I n the Bill of 1814, it was provided that the rise to Sectarians in that Church, as they had arisen the Catholic soldiery. But he held in his hand a let- Crown should have the power of interfering with the 'in tbe•Protestant Establishment. But whatever the ter, written within these three weeks from a place introduction of the bulls of the Pope. The third diffefences asigot be, they should not stand in the Of; ,nd most natural h a d passed What of exception eves the attempt to d eny wa y the Committee. _ _ doors ought •in no degree to affect the - merits of this question. It had. long ago been prophesied that de lay vt„,uid soon4hrow the Catholics into the hands of disaffected and violent persons ; but no description of violence on the part of individuals ought at ail to al ter the merits of the-great question itlelf. • As long as relief is withheld, the lower orders of Catholics are :furnished with a weapon with whidh to exercise their purposes of mischief, bat which would otherwise fall harmless to the ground. The Honourable Gentle man then alluded to the conduct of the Catholics, which had been so deplored, and adverting to Mr. Grattan?, declining to present the petition, be passed a high encomium on Lis unvaried zeal and splendid abilities, which, he trusted, would suffer no diminu tion in so great a cause, and hoped he would live to see the triumph of an event, in the success of which he b id taken so distinguished a part. He knew that his Honourable Friend (Sir Henry Parnell) had re luctantly undertaken the subject, and he could have wished it bad remained where it was. It was not to be supposed that there was a single Catholic in any part or the kingdom who did not virtually stand at the bar of that House, and pray it to go into the Committee on their claims. There were oaly three individuals ef - great property Who had not signed the Petition, and therefore there was no proof that they did not all recognize ,the contents of n. The irrita tion that had been wmplained of was the necessary consequence of delay, and further plucrastinatiom could not but increase it: The mindi of many indi viduals in Ireland had been greatly alienated from this country by the system that had been pursued, and the example would be still more seriously fol lowed, unless the claims of the Catholics were am. near Ceti, complaining that the Commanding cer would not permit his Catholic soldiers to attend the religious worship of their QWII church. The Officer had been remonstrated with on the occa sion, but wittout effect. Indeed, application to Government had been , attended to, but without a legislative measure to grant tree worship to the, tnditary, any individual Commanding Officer couldi, defeat the intentions of Government on this subjecui On the whole, he was sure, if the Home should con-1 sent to embody the Resolutions into a law, they woul4j confer on the Protestants of Ireland the greatest s e- curity, and on the empire in general, the greateatl prosperity. They would excite in the Catholics the most enthusiastic gratitude, and they would unite every heart and every arm in support of the Govern ment. Would they then barter such unmeasurable advantages for ecclesiastical institution ? There had been as yet no danger found from ecclesiastical insti. tution as it is ; and would a possibility of future dan ger from it be put in competition with a real union of both countries, a union of the hearts and minds of the people. 'Under these circumstances he would move, that the House do resolve itself into a Com mittee to take into consideration the Petition of his Majesty's Catholic subjects of Ireland. Sir J. COX HIPPISLEY dissented wholly from. the prayer of the Petition, which went to ask for up. l restricted concession. He regretted he was not in the House when the .English Catholic Petition•w* read. He was convinced there were not annexed to that Petition any two respectable names. That he' wished as mud) as any man to grant the Catholics as much as could with safety be granted; he felt it his duty to oppose unqualified concession. The restric --ould wish to retain were not restrictions on the right of the Crown of interfering in the appoint ment of the Catholic Bishops; and he would ask any Gentleman who voted for this Bin list year, whether it was possible to entertain it now, under all the dif ferences of -cirannstances and pretensions ? Was , there the least probability of our now being able' to get through the business with satisfaction, when it was clear that we could neither conciliate nor satisfy the petitioners ? Had not d petitioners :hewn' throughout the whole of their erocvedings, the most inveterate hostility? It was impossible to satisfy men who had toldns that they would not hear of any interference in their Church, and therefore he hoped 1 the Hobse would refuse to go inm any Committee at. all. He never would entertain this question with re gard to great conassiens till it was ascertained what, the See of Rome would do on • the leading points of it ; as it was necessary that the concession of the , Pope should be granted on these paints before we could proceed at all. He wished it to be stated dis. tinctly what• securities could be offered ; for he ap prehended that not only .nothing had been done at all in this respect since the question was last agitated, 1 but that nothing hasl•been done up to this very hour. He had also :townie know, that there was so great a difference between the Catholics inthe two pans of the kingdom, that intrigues had been can yingon with the Pupe to prevent him coming to any decision at all —(Hear, hear.)—lt would be found that the most material points of the oath had been left out. How then was it possible to go on satisfactorily, when it was evident that the Catholics refused to give this ,one necessary security ? On thewhole he was con vinced that nothing practically could be done to con ciliate them ; and that the continuation of the subject tioris he woo._ _ - the Catholics or on the see of Rome ; but restrictions on the Pope of Rome. It had been the. invariable practice•of every country in Europe to impose recric tions on the interference of the Pope with its peopled yet those restrictions', which even Catholic countries thought it necessary to impose -on the power of the Pope, were disked to be removed -here. Was it soy unjust or oppressive power in the Government to enquire into the charaterottbe individual♦ who was to be appointed a Ilishopi and if that driracter was tound imytroycr.• to 'negative' • his 'appointment ? In every -miter state. the •GOvernment provided some guaiii over tlie'Ciergy: Why should we not do so in emintry ' The Jesuits were about to be revived, end he winvasited, - Lwinst dmiger there -could 'be ap. ' front 'there!, dump - there •should be no prehended ► ikth gusto/tor thest - t it was said thaw Jesuits existed in it e {ax, awl dot . thetivhad beta. sd ester ape. as a matter of discunion, would only lead to disturb ances in the country. He should therefore vote against going into the Comar . tittee. Mr. KNOX was of opinion that nothing would do lOW to strengthen the alliance between the Catholics of Ireland and Great Britain this the granting them the object of their petition; but he believed that the Parliament never would aggeerto concessions which •woulristot eaclode them hilh all interference . of the PAlnd antbdrirf. He did hope, though as it had : appeared wrongly in 1813, dtat this matter alibi have been accommodated, as all the objections Ought have teen obirinted br tbe Pope.; and, he thought, that that liberal. Potentate would not have hesitated thus to benefit so great a portion of his flock But if the prospetts which then - I were fhttyrring, appeared., they h:d altogether banished by the condttet ;it the Catholics of Ireland ) who hod - °Milk/remit ceded by the wisdom of Parliament: But when this was done, we might completely defy all the attempts of the disaffected. Sir C. HIPPISLEY explained. Mr. Serjeant BEST said he never could have con ceived that when voting on a fernier occasion for going into a Committee, he should have been con ceding to the Catholics the whole of their demands. but merely to consider what extraordinary concessions ought to be Made, without even any reference as Ulf the-time when they should take place. He waithere fore surprised to hear, the Hon. Baronet assert that all had been agreed to. But even if this were the case; he should conceive that those who voted for the concessions at that time would nut agree to the pr— Frady of them now. it ' (. .4$ . to be .izxpeeted wbei Oettlomen voted for the coricestions on the priocipie of security being gine s this they should • wnuld be given at all He was not prepared to sa, that so much of the Constitution should be given as should admit them to seats in that House, and th.: Honourable Baronet was wrong in his inference. It was competent its the House to amend the Bill wlth• out going into the ComMittee, and if any Member would bring in a Bill for this pt , pose, he would give it Lis support ; but he would !:ot allow the expecli-ncy of going into the Committee. for the purpose of cussing the claims. The Catholics did not come forward now to ask for any:favour, but to demand what they asserted to be a tight ; and their preteii• bi.)es were liable to w) otller constructinn. It e; however, for the House v judge whit ei:uld be &1r.,- for the Catholics of Ireland, Its well .is tor the way, and wishes of any other clazs at the people ; they were not to be told that-they weie obliged tort, so. r , is WAS net the way-in which may body et ought to appeal to tbe.LegislAture of the cow.. Ls y.• The Learned sezjetsot then alluded to a publi cation ti 1)r. Minor, in which it was asserted, Thu the Catholic might.be.justitied even in certain netsof treason against an heretical King,, - ,and said, that though the Doctor's conduct had. been. disavoweil by the Catholics of En land, they had been approved of i f by those of Itelan He th.light, ks the Pipe wa s n.iw restored , the - o uA ought not to stir a step be. fore knowing what was the power of this Potentate, and Wildt he intended to.do on .the subject, particu larly as no longer since than 1 8(g, his 1-I.4iness had said in his pastoral letter,.that all oaths taken against the doctrines of the Citholic Church were null and void. The Catholics themselves had circulated all over the country a Bill, the contents of which were like saying 66 Give us all, or v.i will take n.ahiny . ." It was thcrefore Certiiiily n-t necessary to g' i!:t0 4 Committee, since it was impossible to give tb. as :.ny sataaction, without a tacit acquiescence un all their demands. • Mr. PONSONDY declared that he would not enter into Any debate upon the sot:y.ct, as Le had e; often delivered his sentiments up.,r, it, that reptiLii would be as tedious to the House as disgusting to himself. He was ready, hovvcver, ui ackniewledgc, that neither the time nor the mode chosen was the most judicious. But he would vote for the Commit tee only that the House might have an oppntuoity of inquiry. If it could be thought that any man who vived lot. the Committee was compelled to ado's: tar resolutions of the Catholics, he should say that ti.is would be a perversion of all the objects of the Com mittee ; for no Bill could be brought in on die sub ject of religion, unless when the whole House in a Committee prcpoiel the regulations. In voting for the Committee, he held himself tree as to any vete he might give in it-; and he protested against I.)ounal to support the question. He cinsidered it, :Wpwever, to involve the peacC, security, and the hap.• of tl.e whole community. Yet, though Cle c a ry.,,lic :; might demand what they pleased, no man Was bound to concede mere than he thought proper. lie bad always regarded the measure itself as t!.e greatest security ; but he nevertheless thought tit it the Catholics would be wise and prudent to considir bow far they could comply with Vie wishes, ter it yin please, with the prejudices of the Protestant 11 'rem 'trent. The Right Hsiu praised the conduct ICI. Grattan, and* Loyed that .the treatment he had received from iiadrviihrals wduli not induce 'him to„vote against a question .tekich could not be considered as of the higlazst interest. • Mr. PEELE objected to the motion ef the Hon. Baronet, as he conceived it would be derogatory the character and dignity. m tile. House .to entertaie it. The condition , order which the ;louse formetly supported it was, that secirriti-s u ere neceeary. Ile therefore differed materially -fri in the Right How. Gentleman who spoke last, in the ',pinion that these were of no consequence. It the. Committee were et:. tered into, the result would be the sank • ac it Aar last year, and would only produce disuniiin and :is. %elation'. It was most material to look ~,t the Reso. *lotions and proceedings of those who Ate the authorities of the Catholics of Ireland ; and he uoult say, that it the motion of the Hem Baronet were adopted, there was no prospect of conisig to the result that was expected. The Honoiirabw Baronet had told us that the result would be to receive assur• antes of gratitude from the Catholic's ; but ice thuull have thmight that lie would have been the last E., talk of the gratitude of the Catholic Coanitice•—• When we were told by him that it was not worth . while to squabble about the subject, at WAS WOTell , while to take a short review or the proceedings which led to the Petition, and the causes through which it deVolved upon the [-honourable I.l.aunet. The Right Honourable Gentleman then re:eireil so varreas printed Pipers, and described the history of the le.lf called the Catholic Associs.tion, headed by 14:. Q'Conne.l. It originated at the begianitig of ;old was : . 011ntli of Catholic Peers, the solli of Pew , . and otuer persons of consider able property. it Ic° considered as a body delegated by the Catholics ct Ireland, and entrusted with the manigement of din affairs. But two of tl.e tlemberstaving been art.:. ed for undue interference at elections, ar.d being c°' victed, the Body was ostensibly dissolved. An Ag gregate /sleeting was then called, which decland that. that Association had the full.confidencc oh el Catholic Body. The Catholic Board or Aggregis Meeting continued in operation till List year, when WAS dissolved by the Lord Lieutenant, declaring i' to be an illegal Body. A short time alierwaris :11 . ! other Aggregate !sleeting was held, and one of 1 110 ' resolutions advised every Menthes- who cempoot this illegal assembly tO'persevere. .\ kuer was tv' t • written to every individual - to Loam what is called: voluntary association. It was at the iriluest 43 tb'' Association that the Honourable Baronet ua deflates to present the l'erition.—(Sir Fl. P ta•g" here rose to ord?r, and iota the report of the mania : WAS incorrect.)—lf not cot rcct, he would lly tt aswie: however, the fact uas, 'liar the lionour.hit Biro", had agreed to present Li e Petition. He u . u la ass whether any Ger-merman, who had witnessed en agitation and distortrances exceed by Cies.' t Nt Bodies, could believe that they-augured any hal': dons of - peace arni creicord ? Fonds were raised ift t , every lionseholain, b, a euguribution tit fen.pence, defray the expeuces or the Petinon. add c tery per . '' . who refused to:contlitute• had ho itaroe marke d.— Atm. ;.ding matt) nal, Of the proceestiol.s os `*;, e, .. 'lardy, to prom i se the, sis clay •hed in.srift asked WIICI.Ier Any b.aiy (.1 mu who had act ed a suc h risciplee genii.' do any th ing favour able w