Star. — London, England, 1802-04-15 00:00:00

h PARLIAMENTARY PROCEEDINGS. HOUSE OF LORDS, WEDNESDAY, APRIL 14. he various BUla before the Houle were forwarded in their Rive Rages. Am mg thefe were the New Loan, and the Aliened Taxes Bills, which were read a third time aud palled. And the Grenada Merchants' Loan, and other important paffcd through Committees of the whole Houle, and were or dered to lie read a third time to-morrow. A Pguition beim; duly prefented, and favourably received by their Lordthips, a MiU was accordingly brought to to diflolve tie Marringe between Edward Lane, Efq. with Catharine his now Wife, which was read a first time, and ordered to be read a feeond time, at the expiration of the interval required by the Orders of the Houfc, to take place between du& ilages of Divorce Bills. The Apprendeceilegubtion Bin, and one Private Bill were brought up from the Commohs by Mr. Booze a, and [ever*lly read a firft time. Lord ItinssoaLs called the attention of the Houle to the Propofitious he Lad advanced on a former evening, relative to the return of Lord Charleville, as being eleeed a reprefentative Peer of Ireland in the room of the late Lord Roll: more. On the nature of the cafe, as well as of the relevant Provifions of the AEI of Union, and the Ad incorporated therewith for the regulation of tilde matters, the Noble and Learned L o rd en- tered into a detailed view, for•tlie information of their Lordlhips, and obferved, that doubts had arifcn in the minds of Come Piers whether thefe , Provifions were duly complied with, which prin cipally feemed to turn on the circnmftance, that the Return was figned by the Deputy Clerk of the . Crown in Ireland, whereas it was held by Tome that it was neceffary the Return flould be figned by the Clerk of the Crown himfelf. However, ii om an attentive perufal, and a review of the whole Ad, and alfo with a reference to the prac tice in this Country where fuch Documents were ligned by the Deputy Clerk of the. Crown, it appeared to him that the Return in queftion was made in ftrid conformity to the Regulations of the Ad, and therefore that the Committee of Pri vileges had in this cafe been unneceffarily referred to. He would, under that impreffion, move, that the Order relative to the Committee of Privileges be difcharged; and which Motion, he (aid, it was his intention to follow up with another, namely,that to declare that Lord Charleville is duly returned. The obfervations of Lord REDESDALE gave rife to a long defultory, and, in Tome points of view, rather irregular converfation, in which Lords TN URLOW ' ALYANLEY , AUCKLAND, RIDEEDALE, IAI - counts LIMERICK and CARLETON, the Earl of Rostis, and Marquis SLIGO, took a part. The refult of this part of the proceedings was, that Lord REDESDALE'S Motions, for difcharging the Order relative to the Committee of Privileges, and declaring Lord Citaittiviu.e duly eleded, were put and carried. Their Lordfhips then proceeded, purfuant to die Order of the Day, to the confideration of the Pe. tition of BARRY, Earl of FARKNAM S &c. praying that his claims be admitted. This fubjed gave rife to a converfation of a fimi. lar deferipuon with the foregoing, and between the above-mentioned Peers.—Much of this, as was the cafe on the evening when the Petitions were originally prefented by the Marquis of Sligo, turn ed upon the point of Catisfadory or adequate evi dence of the fads fet forth in the Petition—as thofe of the deceafe of the Peer alledged to be dead, and the Petitioner was the eldeft fon, or otherwife, the next legal heir to the Peerage, &c. and in this view, one of the queftions confidered by their Lordfhips was, whether the ftatement of one or more Noble Peers, in their places, (hould be held fufficient ? or whether the fads flsould be proved by evidence of a different defciiption, given in the ufual way at the Bar ? The major part of their Lordfhips who delivered their opinions upon this point feemed to think that the mode of taking it upon the state ment of Noble Lords in their places, would not only be in genera) fufficient, but would be the snore fatisfadory, and a Caving of great trouble, &c. to the petitioning Peers. And with refped to the particular caf es before the Houfe, it was urged, particularly by the Earl of Roflin, that the aici lion which their Lordfhips might come to, would trot, as had been thrown out in the courf e of the converfation, operate as a final decition, but merely as trios facie evidence that thofe given by fuch Peers were good votes, and did not go to preclude other perfons who might be concerned, from Ain ing their rights in a legal manner. It was elf() urged by Tome of their Lordfhips in the courfe of the evening, that fomething in the nature of a legiflative provifion, or explanatory ad, was neceffary, in order to clear up the doubts in queflion, and to ellablifu a fixed and regular mode for fettling thefe matters in future ; and it was ob ferved, that a proceeding of the kind was adopted on the occaflon of the Union with Scotland, in which ad, points fi.viilar to thofe in difcuffion, were referred for fubfequent legiflative provifion.. Vifcount CARLETON rote to deprecate any at tempt to alter or new model the Ad of Union with Ireland, on the ground of the ferious alarm which filch a meafure would create in that part of the United Kingdom. Let the Ad of Union be con obferved his Lordthip as well as it could, arld Irillimen would be fatisfi;cl ; but an alteration in that great and important Ad may produce con trary emotions, the more efpecially when they confidered that if the alteration was made at fo early a period after the palling of the Ad, in a matter of mere regulation; and they may be in• clined to confider themfelves as at a lofs to know what to depend on with refped to other points.— With regard to the particular point in dircuflion, he thought the general pradice here would apply to the cafe of Irifh Peers, as in this country, the Patent of a Peer focceeding to his tide was not e 'en produced and the entry on the Journals, was m•rely to the effect that fuch a Peer had taken the oa lis prefesibed, and his feat. Lord AUCKLAND obferved, that the tubed in cileuffion, was not only one of confiderable smpor t ince, but of great delicacy, and (hood not be haßily decided. He would therefore propofe, that fie further difcliffion of the fubjed be adjourned until Come convenient period after the holidays ; ideed this was neceffary, as the fulled enhanced had been Paid relative to the mode in which a Peer should give his evidence in fuch cafes—he was clearly of opinion that it fhould be upon oath, and in this he was borne out by Tome of the greateff authorities of the law—by whom it waslaid down, that in cafes between party and party,a Peer ihould be upon his oath—and teemed to apply to them the g e neral maxim of "In jueficio non creator ninju• rail:. The Noble Lord particularly referred to Coke and Blackilone. With refpea to what had been raid of the propriety of an explanatory Aa, or a legiflative provifion to eftablifh a regular mode for conduLing fuch matters in future, the Noble Lord teemed to conceive fuch a meafure neceffary, and in this view he referred to a part of the incor porated Ad, which profs fed to regulate the elec tion of the Spiritual LOrds, in cafes where any of them should be Temporal Peers, and which, he Paid, involved a notorious blunder, and the en deavour to reify which he could by no means think could give umbrage to their fellow fubjeas in Ireland. The Marquis of Se tao exprefed his concurrence in a great part of what had fallen from the Noble Lord, and feemed to think, that fome explanatory provifions were, as the A& in quellion now Rood, highly necefrary ; and with regard to the code quences of which, he feemed to entertain no feri ous apprehenfions. No man could be a firmer friend to the great meafure of Union than himfelf ; and none but thole who were the enemies of both countries could with to break it. Since the com pletion of the meafure, he had obferved nothing but growing good-will reciprocally between both countries ; they were incorporated in one, and would Rand or fall together. The farther confideration of the Petitions was then pollponed, agreeably to Lord Auckland's fuggeftion. The Earl of Rosetta, after making fome obfer vations as to the necelfity of further inveftigating the fubjed, acquainted their Lordthips with his in tention of moving for the appointment of a Com mittee for that purpofe, and to confider the beft mode of proceeding in fuch cafes, &c.—Adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS. A new Writ was, on the motion of Lord ARDEN. ordered to be Wised for the Town of Northampton, vacant by the pro. motion of the Hon, Mr. Percival to the Office of his Majclty's Attorney General. Mr. Darr gave notice, that he mould immediately after the Reeds move for leave to bring in a Bill for abolihing the prac tice of Bull-Baiting. It was communicated in a Mdfage from the Lords, that their Lordittlps had agreed to the Loan, the Route and Win. dow Tax, and the Corn Trade Bills, and to foetal Private Bills. The Bill for regulating the Health and Morals of Apprentices to the Cotton and Woollen Trades, was read a fecond time, and ordered to be committed to-morrow. The Committee on the hi& Linen Manufadture Bill was poliponed to Wednelday next, to which day the Committees of Supply and of Ways and Means were deferred. Mr. Wvcossaa gave notice that he would to-morrow move for leave to bring in a Bill to explain and continue fo much of a certain Adt of UR Sao as related to the (balifications of Members of Parliament, and the Trial of controverted Eke d= for Ireland. An Account was prefented tithe ordinary Revenue, and the evsaordinary Refourcee of Ireland.—Ordered to be printed. I•RISN •PPRENTICS REGISTERING DILL. The Order of the day being read for the third reading of the Bill for Regiftering Parilh Appren tices, Mr. Came moved for the infertion of a Claufe, by way of Rider, which had for its objed the limi tation of the number of Apprentices, as in feveral inflances, particularly in the Cotton Manufactories, they proved ultimately burthens upon their refpec live parifhes. Sir Roarer Prat declared he could not ex prefs in terms too prong has objeaion to any_ pro vifion of the nature brought forward by the Hon. Gentleman. If one cotton manufaaory had un• fortunately mifcarried, and the Apprentices attach ed to it bad, in confequence of thus gaining a let dement in the parifh, proved burthenfome upon the inhabitants, he thought it extremely hard that a meafure fhould therefore be propofed which would go to the material injury of the whole cotton trade of the country. The grand principle of Le gifiation, be begged leave to fay, was that which knew no individual feelings, and it was impoffible to deny, upon the general principle, that Appren tices became juftly entitled to fettlements.—How- ever contrary the law upon that head might have been in the time of Queen Elizabeth, the circum fiances of the country had lance been greatly changed, and more particularly with refpea to the encreafe of population and capital. He therefore hoped that the Hon. Gentleman would not pert& in preffiug the Claufe. Sir ROBERT BUXTON Paid, that the Apprentices to the cotton trade, particularly in the (pinning branch, could not obtain a livelihood after the ex piration of their fervitude—they merely learnt to fpin, which did not afford adequate means of fub- Silence, and by obtaining fettlements, proved bur. denfome on the pariffies. Sir Rosser Pasi.z anfwered that they were taught according to their years. Employment of a lighter kind was allotted, in every well regulated manufattory, to thofe of a tender age, and tilde of more mature year; were taught what was more fuitable to their powers and capacity. Mr. Cams having fpoken a few words in ex planation, the Qaeftson was put, and the Claufe rejeaed.The Bill was then re4d a third time, and fent to the Lords. MILITIA BILL. The Order of the Day for the fecond reading a the Militia Bill being read, Sir WILL lAN YouNo, after foie ohfervations, expreffed a defire to know the exaa way in which it was propofed finally to regulate the Volunteer Corps and the Yeomanry Cavalry. The SICRITART at Wal anfwered, that the Vo lunteer Corps and the Yeomanry Cavalry wotlld be difembodied at the termination of the War, when he trolled their patriotic and meritorious fervices would be acknowledged ►y x Vote of that Houfe, and by the general fettle pf the country.— Several voluntary offers of fervice hadtten madc. from thefe corps, but no determination had been yet adopted by Government midi refpea to the line of condua which in that cafe was to be pur fued.—The Bill was read a hand time, and or. WORT' AND lIIIPORT DIM' SILL. The Export and Import Duty Bill was read a fecond time. _ _ _ General Gascoic its rote on the queffion for the commitment, and declared, that although he did not mean to oppofe the Bill, he could not avoid expreffing his opinion, that the Duty upon Ex ports and Imports ought to affea in a propor tionate manner that part of the United Kingdom called Ireland. Were a propotition made to extend the operation of the Bill to Ireland, he entertained every well-grounded hope, that the liberality of the Gentlemen who reprefented that country would induce them to affent to fo kill a meafure. Mr. VANSITTART obferved, that however obvi ous the principle was, the . praelice could be regu lated only by a comparative view of the circum (Lances of the two countries. Sir ROBERT Put., Paid, that in his mind both countries fhould be affected by the Bill. They had been involved in the fame caufe, and they were equally implicated in the great obje& of the War. He therefore trolled that a fyllem, founded upon fo fair a bafis, would meet with the appro bation of the Houfe. The regulation was, in his opinion, unobjeaionable, as it might as well be maintained that a difference with refpeCt to bounties ought to take place between Yorkfhire and Lancafhire, as that Ireland fhould be exempt from the Duties upon Exports and Imports. The CHANCELLOR OF THE Excusopsa main tained that the objection, as it exit ed with refped to Ireland, was not at all available in the prefent Rae of the bufinefs, for the propofition could only be brought forward in the Committee. The obfervations of the Hon. General and the Hon. Baronet were certainly worthy of attention. The fubjelt, he was _free to fay, had already re ceived attention, a2d fhould receive more ; but at the fame time, Me could not help remarking, that it was not fair to argue, that becaufe the fame regulation operated upon two counties, it fhould therefore be made to affea in "‘an equal degree two kingdoms, which differed materially in feveral important circumffances of their relation. Dr. LAWRENCE entered at fonie length into fe veral ftatements refpeding the Export and Import Trade of. Great Britain with foreign countries. Lord HAWKESBURY agreed, that as far as it was prafticable, the principle should be applied to both countries • but it was alto peculiarly incum bent on the Houfe, in the application of it, to confult with candour and fairnefs the interefts of the two. Such aft enquiry (hould be ultimately direded to the common interefts of the empire.— With refried to any benefits arifing from Com mercial rreaties, he could venture to Rate, that the want of a Commercial Treaty with any power would fubjth our trade to no difadvantages what ever. There was certainly no danger of rivality in the linen trade from France or Spain, but ra ther from Germany. In other points of view, he would fay that, as under all pail circumflances, it was evident that France could never rival us but in the filk trade, no apprehenfiun could be enter tained that (he would be able to rival us in the ac tual (fate of things. Mr. O'Haaa begged leave to remind the Houfe, that though the Lords and Commons of Ireland fat here, the Exchequers of both countries were dif ferent, and that the queftion did not relate to the trade of Ireland, as the Tax went folely to ailed Great Britain.—The Bill was then committed, and the Committee poftponed to Friday fe'nnight. REDEMPTION OF THE NATIONAL DEBT. The Houfe having refolved itfelf into a Com mittee upon the Bill for confolidating certain AEls of Parliament for the Redemption of the National Debt, IIk:CHANCELLOR or THR Excueopss began by obferving, that as it had been found impoffible to prepare for the [information of the Committee thofe accounts and particular flatements upon which the whole of the calculations refpeeing the Redemption of the National Debt relied, he should not then enter into thofe minute details he had propofed to fubmit to the confideration of Gen tlemen. The accounts were, however, making out with all poffible difpatch, and would be printed for the ufe of the Houfe early in the enfuing week. Gentlemen would therefore be enabled to take them into their confideration during the recefs, and to form a coffee opinion on the accuracy of the details, and the conclufions drawn from them. He should not now detain the Committee for any length of time, for as the meafures in queftion had been approved of, he would do little more than fubmit the refolutions as they were worded. No man, he was proud to fay, could fe e l m ore deeply than himfelf, the great and folid benefits refulting to the Public from the arrangement of 1786, for the Redemption of the National Debt. The confequences were in every point of view adequate to the molt fanguine expeeation. They were produeive of advantages which were felt in all direCtions, and reflefted the higheft honour on the author of the plan. The Houfe was truly fenfible of the beneficial refults, and during the v ici ffitudes, perils, and calamities of the late arduous conceit, it had uniformly perfevered in giving , to the fyftem that fupport and cordial co-operation which could render it effeeive. Gentlemen were indeed fo fully convinced of its falutary tendency, that he was confident they would unanimoufly op pore any propofal which might tend to weaken its operation. The great effed of the plan was to confolidate the Public Debt, and to confolidate the redemption of it. For that end two purpofes were to be effected ift, To provide relief for the prefent moment ; and adly, To accelerate the re demption of the debt. When the whole amount of the national debt was confidered, he would not liefitate to fay, that it could not be looked at trith• out anxiety, and a correfponding with to lighten, and entirely to r emove it. The amount of the permanent taxes was little thort of thirty millions, and the capital of the debt amounted to 488 mil lions. The meafures he had to propofe for re moving this hear) , preffure were founded upon two Ails of Parliament—the one paffed in 1786, and the other in 17A2. The firft was eftablilhed for reducing the debt then due, and the fecOnd time contmeed, as well as for what might after• wards become due. It was determined that when the interefi amounted to four millions, that flux. would he at the difpofal of Parliament, and that the annual Sinking Fund fhould crate. He there fore had for his object in the refolutions which the Committee were to take into their confideratiun, to counteraa that determination, and to •combine all the refources of the country in one great and efficient Stock. It was his with that the plus of 1792, for extinguifhing each Loan, fhould alfp be carried on for the extinction of the whole debt.— Upon there tyftems the whole of the old Debt would be extinguithed in the 3 per Cents. in the comic of 48 years, and the whole of the new Debt in 47 years. He had the fatisfallion to Rare, that it appeared from the Accounts which would be laid on the table, that in confolidating the two eftablifliments of 1786 and 179 a, the whole of t! , _ National Debt would be paid off in 43 years and two months. That afTurance he trolled, would of itfelf be fufficient to difpofe the Houfe to ac cede to the meafure, which at the fame time pre cluded the neceffity of railing the fum of c,0c,000l for the interea of the new taxes, the louse:: of the Income Tax, and left difpofable the Turn of stamool. in Short Annuities. The fum of 1,500,0001. would alto by this meafure be left as an overplus, being the difference of interea after paying off the 4 and s per Cents. The advanta ges which would arife to the public he had fairly (fated, and the object under confide:ation was to apply for relief to thofe meafures which held out fuch folid and pleating refources. With retpea to the two Sinking Funds of 1786 and 1792, they would, if confolidated, produce 5,667,0001. which. in the courfe of 47 years, would be equal to the extinction of a debt one hundred times as much, or to the extinction of five hundred and fixty mil lions, and that operation, it appeared evident from the tables made out for the information of the Houfe, would then leave an excels of eighty mil. lions above the whole amount of the National Debt, as it called at the prefent moment. In - lead, therefore, of Rating the time for effecting tilt extenfion of the debt at 47 years, he thould take it at 42 years, and tome months. He had upon this important fubjea nothing more to oh ferve, and was defirous only that the merits of the meafure fhould be clearly uncleraood. The papers would be printed early next week, and the tables completed for the infpeelion of Gentlemen during the recefs ; and he would content himfelf with moving that the Houfe do refolve itfelt, for the further conaderation of the plan, into a Commit tee of the whole Hoare on Monday fenii:ght.— He hoped in the mean time to have the permit% lion of the Committee to propofe his Refolutions. He then read feveral Refolutions conformable to the fiatements contained in his_f_peech. The Houfe returned, and Mr. ALEXANDER brought up the Report, which was read and agreed to, and it was ordered that the Houle should, on Monday fe'nnight, again refolve into a Committee on the tubjed. •SSESSED TAKES. Mr. ALEXANDER brought up the Report of the Committee on the Affeffed Taxes additional Duty Bill, which was read and astyed to, and a claufe received on the motion of Mr. VANSITTART, empting the Licenled Owners of Hackney Coaches within the cities of London and Wellminfter, who keep no snore than two horfes, from the addition al duty on horfes. Mr. DENT affied, whether it would not be ex pedient to extend this exemption to the Hackney Coach Owners of the country towns? Mr. VANSITTART in anfwer Paid, that perfbns keeping Hackney coaches in London and Weft minfier paid a duty to which thofe in the provin cial towns were not fubjea, and therefore the for mer were entitled tothis exemption.—lt wasmoved that the Bill Would bye engrofftd. Mr. Alderman CUKTIS rote, he raid, with a great deal of diffidence—Void and continua laughter) — the worthy Alderman (who teemed much to enjoy the laugh) returned, and (fated it as his opinion, that this Bill fhould be re-committed, in order to introduce a clanfe for levying an immediate duty on a certain defcription of fervants—he meant foreigners—without intending any thing invidious to whom, he thought thofe modern fine gentle, men who gave them a preference to thofe of their own country, ought to be made to pay for their unjuft partiality. He concluded with moving, that the Bill fhould be re-committed, with a view to confider the propriety of adding a dente accord- ingly. The Citencexxol of the Excl./vet obferved, that the zeal of his Hon. Friend had on this oc cafion been rather too flow in its operation, for he had fuffered the proper opportunity to pals 4y, in which his motion Would be made. In point of order, the motion for recommitting the Bill could not now be received, unlefs it fhould be the plea fure of the Houle to allow the motion for engrof- Ling the Bill`to be withdrawn. Befides, it was to be recolledted, that any motion for a new Tax mutt originate in a Committee of Ways and Means, from which an infirudion fhould iffue, to make provifion for fuch a Tax in the progrefs of the Bill. The motion of the worthy Alderman was altoge ther out of time, but it might be made the full jed of a diaind meafure. However, he would beg leave to remark to the worthy Alderman, that his propofition would, in his (Mr. A.'s) opinion, be a Tax of extreme harthnefs, injuftice, and in hofpitality towards foreigners, particulaily against thofe who, under the preffure cf recent circun - fiances, had been obliged to leek an afylum in this country; and it would be not lets fevere towards thofe Gentlemen who-might entertain a partiality to foreign fervants. With refped to himfell he never had, nor did he think he ever fhould have a foreigner in his fervice ; his partiality was to Englith fervants, but he would not therefore Arent to the propriety of holding out fontething like a compulfion to Gentlemen to difmit's fervants who might have recommended themfelves by their fide lity and attention.—The Bill was ordered to be read a third time to-morrow. DEbR AND MALT TAX. The CHANCELLOR Of the EXCHIIVIR flatCdP