Star. — London, England, 1815-03-01 00:00:00

PARLMMENTARr PROCEEDINGS. HOUSE OP LORD 5, FEBRUARY 28. The transaction of public business commenced at the uNualintae. The Earl of SHAY I'ESI.URY cresenttd from the Lord Mayor, Aldermen, &c. of the City at Le.;•lo-i, I o Come,tein Hall aisernbled, praying that no thouniou may be made la the ("torn Laws. — The - Petition being read ; The !,O'LW CI lANCELLOR observed, that although it must We the wish of the House to receive Petitions coming from that quarter iAt all due respect, yet it could not consistently receive the present as the. Petition it ptufessed .to be, in a smuch as it ap pearad to be signed only by ten or twelve Idividual,.. • One of, their Lordships suggested, the prerrltty o f having the ' . 1 : 1 0 LORD ci 141NCEL.1.0R rtfcrred to the ca3e of a Peti • dll:Lcently presented In, a similar way, acrd which was actually aceividortertly 'as the Petition of the subscribing Individuals. Earl S I'ANHO.PE saw no necessity for•withdrawing the Peti• tion—lt was ou a . moit important subject, and a very good Peti don; and thefefltre, were it only from the individuals sulhcri bbig, it was entitled to all the COMlderation it deserved. TL•e Earl of SHAPIESBiIItir stared, the document was put dot° his hods as the Petition of those persons from whom it professed to come ; and szemed to doubt the propriety of his M . tnathwing it as the Petition of any others. The Petition-was withdrawn for the present. l'ho Bank Loan Bill was brought up from the Commons by Mr. Brogilen.and others. The London Wit Docks 818 was brought up by Mr. Man ning, the Helston Election Bill by Mr. Horner, and two or three Private Bills, by Mr. Swan and other Members,all of which were severally read a first time. • ()n the oe.e4sion of the Heiston Election Bill, some conversa . tion took place, princirally between Lord GRENVILLIC and the Earl of LAVDrIIDALE, which was in effect terminated by an ob 'ovation from The Earl of LIVERPOOL, who observed that no time could be regularly appointed for the second reading of such a Bill, until it wes printed; but be suggested that as the witnesses were to come up a considerable way, it would be best to fix some early slay for the investigation of the subject, after the Easter recess. This proposition seemed to meet the sense of their Lordships, and the Bill was ordered to be printed. Earl BATHURST presented some official Papers, pursuant to • a former Address of their Lordships. Certain additional documents relative to the importation of Corn were ordered to be laid before the House, on the motion of the Earl of LAVOLADALS. Ihe Civil List Accounts, and the Annual Indemnity Bills passed through Committees of the whole House, and were or dered to be reports.d. Lord GRIINVII.LE presented a Petition from the Freemen and others of the City of Durham. against any alteration being made in the Corn Laws.—Ordered to lie on the table. SCOTS JURIES BILL. The Order of the Day, upon which their Lord ships were summoned, being read, the Houie re solved itself into a Committee op the above Bill. . Earl STANHOPE, in opening the discussion, deprecated the idea of their Lordships considering the measure before the Committee, as having the fa vourable opinion of the people of Scotland, without r root that it was so. An attempt to induce the • Members of the House to vote contrary i n their own opinions, was lil:e one to put chains about their necks. • —They could not put one about his neck, nor, he hoped, cn that of the Noble. and Le.srued Lords op posite. The Lawyers of Edinburgh certainly dif. • fered in their opinions about the Bill, and in many other parts of that country they Were !testi', to it.— In, illustration of this, his Lordship refthed to some communications he had received from Glasgow and tier places, and he expressed his hope their Lord * ships would follow 414; own • excellent opinions with retPect to the Bill, and not be dictated to by others. Thu LORD CHANCELLOR 'was el opinion, • th 4 when a great ,and lagitimate object was in view, and with respect to it, they were about to confer a benefit, the prineipla of considering in what way it would be most satisfactory was very allowable ; and he thought that his Noble Friend, who was so averse from wearing shackles upon his own neck, would not - wish to place theM on those of others. The first enacting clause being under consideration; The LORD CHANCELLOR :roved, as an l'imndrlnnt, that the words 4 . 4 in matters of fact,'" be irft _ _ _ After a short expression of concurrence from Lord GRENVILLE; • • Earl STANHOPE rose, and as a friend to the Trial by Jury, generally begged leave to thank the ' Noble and Learned Lord for his Amendment. Lord GRENVILLE, alter some observations on : the clause which went to vest an optional.* discre • tionary power the court; with respect to such cases as should be tried by juries, proposed, as an amend talent, the ipecikation of certain cases, in which such node of trial should take place, as personal injuries, questions of &images, &c. The LORD cHoicFLLort entered into an elaborate and profoundly learned discussion of these 'voints, at some length, in the course of which he ad. vested to the important difference of the Constitution of the Court of Session in Scotland, and That of most of the Courts in this Country, the it,trper being invested both with an equit4depid legal jurisdiction, 'and to the discretionary power vested in the Courts of Equity in this country, p oticularly that of Chan. cery, for directing an issue to be tried, pointing out the material difference between the trial of an issue 'and an action. Upon the whole, viewink the subject ' as he did, he would propose to his Noble Friend, shat instead of moving his proposition as an Amend. client to the clause before the Committee, he should reserve it for a distinct and separate clause, and to ,postpone its discussion for the present. Lord GRENVILLE, after a few remarks upon some points which fell from his Noble and Learned Friend, said he had no objection to write the discus sion. He delayed it until the Report, when their Lordships might have their opinions mote matured *As to the application of the principle. The Earl of LAUDERDALE delivered his sen timents upon the points at some length : he alluded to the provisions of former Bills upon the subject be fore the House, and observed, that the sense of the Bar in Scotland was best to be collected from the meetings in Edinburgh ; and seemed to think the Bill would be preferable in its present form. Lords ELLENnonoLett and REDESDALE spoke at some length on this part of the subject ; and the LORD CHANCELLOR and the 'Noble CHIEF hjwr l c i g s p o k e re „ peatedly in explanation. Lord REDESDALE also_ mussed his favour able opinion of the Bill as a 'tetia4,prary measure, and as one calculated to prepare the till:ids Of the, Judges, of the Bar, and of those who were 'more immediately to be affected by it, (or a more extensive introduction of tbs. Trial by Jury in Scotland. • The Amendment of Lord GRENVILLE was then seklideirti! . l jupd doe clause was agreed to their • • In ism of the subsequent clauses, certain emend. menu wore made,rivripar, Loan CHANCELLOR.'" Lord 'ERSKINE made ameaeUre Wore qtte`tomc liactment. of elk' Bill, bi Drell knawn. . lie WAll 4f i if once introduced, would soon work Ay Scotland ; its benefits and blessings being sensibly felt by the people, its rapid and complete progress WAS certain. After some further discussion, in which Viscount MELVILLE, the Earl of ROSSLYN, and the Duke of Most MOSE participated, the remaining clauses of the Bill were agreed to by the Committee, and the House resuming—the Report was ordered to be taken into consideration on Thursday.—Adyiumed. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Lord G. BERESFORD informed the House, that his Royal Highness the Prince Regent had received the Address of the 4itli instant, and had been graciously pleased to order the Parrs in question to be pruductd. Sir JAMES SHAW brought the Bill for widening and im proving the West End of Cheapside, which was read a first time. Mr. H. ADDINGTON obtained leave to bring in a Bill to procure Returns of all Persons coamdttedand tried for, and con victed of crimes and misdemeanors. The Right Hos. Gentle man stated, that it was precisely the same sort of Bill as he in troduced last )ear. —it was brought up, and after a few words from Mr. Suety LIT svaz i wu read a first time, and ordered for a second reading to-morrow. An Account of all foreign Iron imported during the last ten years was moved for, and - the cotlntries from which it was brought: Alto an account of British Iron exported during the same period. Likewise an account of all Foreign Corn Imported, into Great Britain during thelast ten years.—Ordered. Mr. LOCKHART gave notice, that on Thursday. t` lirth March, be should move for leave to bring in a Bin to regulate, the sale of Crops growing and taken in executidis Lord LASCELLES presented a Petition from the Mamas. turas of the West Riding of the County of York., praying that the duty on Cotton Imported be taken off.--Or&wid to le on the Table. Mr. LUSHINOTON brought up the Report of the Bill re- Linn to the Duties on Wine and Tobacco, which was read a second time, and ordered to be committed to-morrow. The Bank Loan Bill was read a third time and passed. The Repen of the Glass Bill was brought up, pod craned to be read a second dine to-morrow. On the motion for the second reading of the Amendments to the Jail Fees Abolition Bill, Sir lames Shiw wished to introduce a clause, which wasobjected to by Mr. Bennett. The SPEAKER observed, that as it was of a pecuniary cha racter it could not be received, according to the forms of the Heise ; but he indicated that the Honourable Baronet Might either make it the object of a Supplementary Bill, or might move that the present Bill be now re-committed, which would give him an opportunity of introducing any number of clauses. Sir JAMES SHAW preferred the latter mode, and moved for the re-committal of the Boil. Mr. HOLFORD contended that the Ices about which so much had been said, as affecting the City Prisons, were quite incon siderable, being only 6s. ed. on the discharge of a debtor; and that if a man either could not through poverty, ur would not through obstinacy, pay this trine he was always discharged at the end of two days. He considered it pitiful for such a rich Cor poration as that of London, to pretend it could be affected by the loss Of such petty emoluments. Sir JAMES SHAW replied, and the motion for the re-coni mitmem was negatived. The House want into a Committee on the General Export Acts, when the t4anks were filled up. Repoli to-morrow. • . On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER the Committee to consider of the Act of the eth of Queen Aim., relative to the Charter of the South Sea Company, was postponed till to-morrow. In a Committee on the Citrate of Lime Importation Act, it was resolved that the duties on the importation do cease and determine. Mr. LUSHINGTON brought up a Bill to exempt the Post Once Packets from the pr.yat‘m of Harbour Duties, winds was read a first time. '1 he Local Poor Amendment Dill was read a second time and committed for to-morrow. l‘NIGliTs OF TIIR BATH. Mr. GORDON wished to be informed, whether, it was the intention of the Advisers of the Crown to propose any further augmentation of the late extent of the Order of the Bath ; and also, whether the es penses already attendant on it will be Wine by the public ? .The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied, that be bad received no commands on the subject. Respecting the expenses, it was impossible for him to answer that question at present; but he oonceived that the amount of the expense incurred was intended to form a part of the public expenditure. DISZAIAOPTING TIIII MILITIA. Sir SAMUEL ROMILLY said, be did not think it necessary to apologise for bringing again' under the notice of the House a subject to which, in the course at the present Senion, he had already called their . at tention. If it remained exactly in the same situation as when he last noticed it, he should think, from its great importance, that he was justified in imploring the House to give it the fullest consideration i—but the fact was, that all the circumstances connected with it were now materially altered. At that time more than five months had elapsed since the signing of the. Preliminary Treaty of Peace with France, and we were also in negcciation with the Envoys from America for electing a peate with that country.— This likewise had since been accomplished, and now this country had been not only sine months at peace with all the powers of the Continent, but Might also be c aside red as at peace with the whole world ; for although the ratification of the 'Preliminary Treaty with America had not yet been received, there was no reason to apprehend. that the terms would be re jected. When he last noticed this subject, ie wao asserted, that the militia having been called tint, and. embodied under the Act of the 42il of the King,-it remained for the Crown alone to determine, .wider' what circumstances it should' be disembodied. But the tact of a part of the militia remaining embodied for the long period of nine months after a general peace with the Continent of Europe, was a thing um exampled since that description of force had been first established. The extreme importance of this subject must be' forcibly impressed upon every mind. It imposed a most serious sacrifice upon the lower orders of the people, by separating them from their families and occupations ; depriving them of the great advantage they derived from the civil law, and subjecting them to all the rigour of that of the mili tary ; while the rich, on contrary, were not at all affected by the operation of the measure, which they get rid of by a pecuniary tax. It could not be. denied that the sacrifices of the militia-men were only submitted to from absolute necessity, and the grounds for their being called out w e r e distinctly stated in the r Act to be actual invasion, the danger of invasion, or internal insurrection. Even when the Act was first produced, so teAttl?us was the Legislature of the necessity of imposing restraints upon the Crowe, that it was expressly provided, that in no other cases should this larcebe called out but in those .he had mentioned, and it was expressly ordained that the King should publish the grounds for calling it oil 1 . o . , if the P4oo4ll:_tirtobt mss. ante what occepion mood for putting jam This 'beihg tO.cley and in 4 the law, and nce&ubt •whAtever. fipon it, he would asseess i with all' .f, Ca hit opinion is, that it this rm. ..- Keeping any part of the militia embodied is contrary to law. • Bat; besides this, he understood that several of the men who had been discharged were still illegally detained. It, therefore, only remained to he said, what was the construction of the law, which involved no complicated intricacies. • The ' Learned Gentleman then entered into a full explana. tion of the Act, from which he read a variety of ea tract's, and contended, that the doctrine now held s that when the King had once called out the Militia, he bad the liberty to retain them embodied for any length of time was illegal ; as thereby the only se curity which the militiaman had, that his liberty and life might not be sported with, was the responibility of Ministers. No. doubt a great discretion was and ought to be placed in the Crown, as to determining when the causes for which the militia had , been called out had ceased but when it was clear to every man in the kingdom that all possible causes had actually ceased, there could remain nogreat ground for discussion. But if his Majesty's Ministers could say that at this moment any one of the causes exist, ~ with the least appearance of reason and truth, he would not make this appeal to them. But )se would say, as his own opinion, that there never had been a trans`, during the whole course of his Majesty's reign when the causes for calling the militia out had more completely ceased. it was a maxim of common sense, that when causes had ceased, •. ; their. effects must cease also ; and he would defy Ministers to produce any instance of the Militia remaining embodied, except during the existence of actual war with an eneatj. Even at the conclusion of the last war, when nobody entertained a sanguine , belief that the peace would be permanent, Ministers did not think themselves justified in keeping up this force, but disembodied the whole of it within five weeks after the Treaty had been signed. The period was not so long past, but that the House must re. collect the consequences of the ambitious strides df the then First Consul of France, when he made secret Treaties of Peace, and obtained large territories by invasion or fraud : this was between the signing of the Preliminary and the Definitive Treaties. Yet it • was within a fortnight after the news had arrived, that the Secretary of State brought in a Bill to aug. ment the Militia, and urged as a reason, that it was necessary to infuse a military spirit amongst the people; and the Bill had actually passed, before the Treaty of Peace came under discussion.. Ministers must, therefore, have thought that this was a time when their duty called on them to avow what was the construction of the law ; and they then did not dare to assert the same construction of it which they do now. On the contrary, they disbanded the Mi. • litia, and immediately called them out again. The • Learned Gentleman then proceeded to comment up. on the opinion lately given by the Law Officers of • the Crown, who, on being applied to for removing all doubt as to the construction of the act, had trans. Imi:tett their opinion to the Secretary of State, who hal sAtt it to the Commander in Chief's Office. from whence it had been circulated amongst the Com manding Officers elf the Militia regiments. He con. • tended that it was the duty of the Law Offict_rs to argue such a subject ; and that it was not right to take their mere opinion as an authority fur removing all doubts upon it : they should have acted the parts of achiocates between the Crown and the People, and not that a Judges. Yet amongst those who had given the decisive opinion to which he had alluded, was the Chief Justice'of Chester ; and other Judges, who might afterwards be called upon to try causes in which their own opinion had been previously formed. He then read the circular latter alluded to, and de. vied that the construction of the Act by the Law Officers was just, that there was nothing imperative in it as to the time when the Militia should be embo-• hied, after they had been once called out. To what a situation, he observed, should we be reduced, it we suffered the word expediency to usurp the place of that of necessity ?—( Hear, hear.)—Ministers thus may take men away from their homes, and keep' them from their families and employments, act as long as is necessary fur the safety of the country, but as long as they thought expedient, and ti.cre is no remedy but the responsibility of Ministers. Was that, he would ask, a sufficient protection, rr even a ' sufficient consolation for the p ogle ? There wis no' country uhatever in which the M;nisters of the Cr. wit were riot responsible for their coriduct e hat greater danger could await a country than that Mi nisters should do what they think expedient, merely upon their own responsibility ? . Our ancestors, by the very construction of the Act, had thought it ne cessary to guard against such an encroachment.— But it must now be understood, that his Majesty's Ministers may, at the present moment, according t. the opinion of the Attorney and Solicitor General, call out the whole of the Militia that bad just been • disembodied, in consequence of any turn tile negoci ations ntny take at Vienna ; for the keeping of only one Militia regiment on toot enables them to call out all the rest, without any of the safeguards Which the law had provided for the people. The Learned Gen tleman then went into an elaborate comparison be tween the Local and the Regular Militia, mid con. :eluded With observing that the single question, after all, was—.why, when the causes for calking out the Militia had ceased to exist, the terms upon which they were embodied ought not to ceas e also ? The tendency of the doctrine now laid down was, to leave every thing burthensome under the Act, and take awe, every thing In beneficial ; for they may be thus cruelly retained the service till all the petty squab- Isles a mongst the Foreign Powers, . and the pitiful ambition of those persons in their contentions for ter ritory shallminisbeterstisthfieindk it ; nay, even to keep on h en sar till the great force Continent shall be recalled home. The Learned Gentleman then concluded with moving.—At That nine months having elapsed since the signing of the Definitive Treaty of P e ti t , f in d thi s countr y b e i ng now at .peace with the whole world, no causes are now in existence for mutinying any part of the Mi litia embodied." Mr. BATHURST . complimented the Learned Gentleman fOr having iery fairly stated bit own opi nion *pots die.sobjeca I bet it appeared that he ha d only taken a partial view of the matter, and b ad Afyon the sugleitilte.*: si t kicro4amation, \ 1 44 •'. 4 ':: • t tit If Shan, 1 VI Els gotne . observe on to the measure in jar runittee. On the prominent comestible nature < its stirtiments, he sakl, tree ; being entertained i•opininn the 'Trial by. Jury, perfect humility, 41 ild soon work its way into 'mcnt, the keeping anitted to notice one paft which be ha& perha r thought not necessary to the question. He had 11. Alluded to our exact situation with teipect to Am :ica, as we were actually at war with that Po-. when he made his former remarks ; and he mu know that we are carrying cm the war at this rnomc and must continue . to do so until peace is complete attained. Witgrespect in OUT Foreign relitions, it 1. been thought necessary to keep up large' milita forces till every thing- is • -settled on the Continen and thus our situation, so far from being differe from what it was when the Learned Gentleman sr) on the subject before Christmas, it is in fact exaci the same.. The propriety of keeping our limes the Continent is a topic on which other con - Yeratic are existing. He therefore thought that :he Lcari Gentleman had varied the point, because, before did draw a distinction between the spirit and th galitT of the act ; but at present his remarks co. not be considerd as a lair construction of it. (Sir Sadtuel Romilly) bac admitted, the is words of the act, there V:JS no limitation to be lo„ as to time, and he Ihtd correctly described the cumstances under which the Militia might legal;, called out ; but he (Mr. Bathurst) contended, had been designed that the Militia should not be ki embodied after the cause which originally called th, out had ceased, the same caution would have L. observed in providing for their beino di►banded, was thought necessary when describing the el:en stances under which they were to be embodied. '1 Militia had been kept up under existing circumstan, on the responsibility of Ministers. The Honoural and Learned Gentleman had worked himself up say, while speaking of the responsibility of Mir tern, that the Ministers of every country were rep( sible. Did the Honourable and Learned Geutlem . really mean to assert this ? If he did, he (Mr. • thurst) could wish to know what he meant by testes., sibility ? It he meant they were responiible to V . despot whom they served, he world admit the la:. but he would deny that they were responsible to 0 people. The measure of keeping up the Militia c.a not in this instance rest wholly on the respoesibile,. of Ministers, as it had the sanciion of Perham , who, six months after the peace was concluded,h sanctioned their remaining embodied, by voting supply the sums wanted for their pay, clothing, d. . That House had negatived the motion brottalit the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, and immediately after voted for the continuance of the Militia for tee months longer. Under these circumstances, lie cc • tended this measure in question, therefore, (he re peated it) was not one which rested on the mere ' sponsibility of Ministers, but on the admitted nee sity of thecase. With the view the Honourable at... Learned Gentleinan took of the subject, why, instee, of bringing forward abstract questions, did he of move the House to addrvis the Crown to recall ii' army now abroad, cr to withhold the supplies e:.-• mended to pay and maintain them ? The Hon. an. ' Learned Gentleman had seemed disposed to asste that the country cculd only be in danger of invasi.e from a neighbouring country. Would it be nhi. rained that means were not to be taken to gur against such an event, not only when we were at with France, but also when we were at wet w Spain, with Russia ' will Denmark, or any ode country But. the Militia had not been -callad•el:! merely when invasion was actuctly.expattede'At t" time Lord Ni.rth called out the Militia, he had starve invasion to be a mere bugbear. The principle-4i been aderitred that the Militia were to be kept ern! died, to enable the Government to send sut the ri - 'solar army, when this became necessary f. r the _ clarity of the country. The propriety c. using the Militia in this manner must be acknowledged ; h.i, (sunlit a nation like this to keep her armies in a St 1"! of inactivity, till an ambitious Monarch, her enene . having conquered Moscow or Vienna, was enable. to turn all his tones to her subjugation ? It it wa kgal to use the Militia, that the regular force nuk.. be sent on foreign service, it must be telt Minister:, under the present circumstances of the ccutifry, were justified in not disembodying it. Though peace we igne , we were nor yet in a state of peace with A rica, and a considerable British force was at r sent necessarily employed on the Continent of Ee rope. This situation of things made it expedient t , keep the Militia embodied alter the war was con :- demi to be termineted, and tiring this Ministers the concurrence if Parliament. He defended ee cerOuct of Ministers in continuing to keep op sot particaler regiments of Militia which had been ore : red to be diserineelied. This, at the time, was fon t . expediept ; and d:d the Hon. and Learned Gent in in nice*: to say it was the duty of Nlinistcrs to I.; the opinion qt. the Judges on the subject before I:. deciued on such a measure ? With the opinion sine if his Learned Friends (the Avoiney.Gener. the Hon. and Learned Gentleneie had quariell , on account c f his being a Judge: this was remarkable, after he had expressed a wish that t• opinion of the Judges should be given on - the subjc He bad also objected to the appointment cl the I-. nourable and Learned Gentleman to one of the sin tiOns he bad the honour to hold,. This appointne he defended at some length ; and stated the two si minas to have been formally held at the same time the late Lord Kenycn, who he believed to have le the Learned Gentleman referred to, and stated its honest an Attorney and as honest a Judge as e• had existed. The Militia once called out, he ag contended, might b•gally be kept embodied by Meters se long as the situation of the country in `such a measure expedie n t. The argument of Honourable and Le arne d G e n t l e man, when speaki of the Peace with Am er i c a, if lie were disposed take it up, would go t o j ust ify Ministers in keepi! up the Militia is t i me o f p eace , l es t America, Fience, or some othe r P o w er , s hould not be faith:. to its engagements. When the Militia has disbead atter the Peace of Anions ; things were on a qtr different looting teem what they had been in sir the Treaty of Paris. The Peace, at the time 0: measure was resorted to, had been definitively cc eluded. Since the last Peace was signed, great slu e lions had still been pending; part of our regular 4 My was necessarily employed on the Continent, sr to supply their place, it bad been necessary to ke up the Mihtia. When this subject was last brut's• before the House, it had been truly stated that in , ' regiments of Militia would be disembodied as so ds this could be safely done. This promise had be: observed, and the remainder would be disbanded soon as that conclusion had been put to the