Star. — London, England, 1805-06-29 00:00:00

to Ole regular force would be 23,c00 men, indepen of transfers from the Militia, The Honour.. able Officer feemed to think entitling for a term of years preferable to the fyllem now pradifed. With- I out entering into that fnbled, he could affirm the Honourable Member, that it was the anxious with of Government to afcettain the advantage of loch a ; plan ; but after every confideratiou given to it, there were fo many great authorities againft thepropufition, t hat it was deemed advifable not to make any experi went. He law an inflance in Ireland, which proved to his own mind, that however popular it may be vet t h a t it would not be attended with the advaus tapes which were faligninely anticipated from a trial, it wade : out 01.9c00 who were to be difbanded, :so only took a bounty of ten guineas for limited 'ferrite, all the red took twelve for unli . ited fervice with the utmoft alacrity. It certainly was but fair . .a c t a fore, to allow the plan of his Right Honourable 'f r i e nd the benefit of trial before it was abolifhed. refped t.s the main f:ature, namely, the Standing Army, he Ihould fay, without fear of vitt tradidion, that it was the largett face this country :ever had. The difpnfable force was alfo much larger than at any period during the war, at the fame time that we had 400,0c0 volunteers,animated with the zeal, loyalty, and patriotifm, which have, and ever will, diffinguifh Englifhmen in the carafe of independence an d liberty. It mull be confolatory to the feelings • of every man, gloated by thofe generous motives, to know, that the amount of the regular force, at pre fent, exceeded, by sOOO men, any force of the kind which the country ever boafied of. The Honourable Officer teemed to be a little alarmed at the numbers difpatched by the enemy to foreign parts, as con tubed with thofe fent from this country ; but the fatl was, that the number fent by us was much greater than the Hon. Officer had calcu:ated. The amount of tan regular forces abroad, including artillery, which was left out of the Hon. Gentleman's account, was 69,3c0. Hence it could be feen, from the ac counts laid on the table, that the increafe of our forces abroad amounted to 20,300 ' iaflead of t 6,000, as Elated by the Hon. Officer. On the whole, he was , canfident, that our fnuation was much better at pre fent than it has been heretofore, as well as the means of defence greater in every refpeEt. The gallant Officer had millaken him, if he fuppofed him to have Lid that all danger of invafion was pall ; on the con trary, he was of opinion that every exertion was to be made for the defence and feetnity of the country, though he certainly thought that the danger was not now as great as it appeared to have been Fine time a;o. Although our lunation was thus improved, not only in point of numbers, but particularly in the quali ty of our force, yet he did not with the army to (land at its prefent amount, but that every facility and en. couragement thould be given to it every way. In this, however, he differed from the Hon. Officer, becaufe he (Lord Calllereagh) recommended the continuance of his Right Hon. Friend's Bill, from which he had jull ground to cape& that the greatell benefit would refult to the country. In this view of the lubjed he could not affent to the motion of the Honoura7.!e Officer, and fhould conclude, therefore, with moving that the orders of the day be read. Mr. FULLER exclaimed, What caufe have we to be alarmed, who have 600,c00 men in arms, flimu- Lted by every feeling which courage and patriotifm cw infpire ? its to the Volunteers, of whom the Hon. Officer did not feem to think highly, he ihould only obierve, that if the gallant Officer were at their head, they nookd march on to glory—(II latch.)—Let the Hon. Gentleman be employed, and every thing would go on perfealy well. Mention was made of a certain Volunteer Colonel who kept a paftrycook's Chop ; but this was not difgraceful, for he knew that the Paltry rook Colonel was a good citizen, a loyal fuNieft, and perh.q:, as good an orator as the Hon. Offictr him filf—( .4 loud ierm,g4.)—lf the French Revolution were looked to for precedents, it would Anna map y a fact. Hoche was one who role from the lowett order. by the exercife of great talents; and we all know that Moreau was a lawyer. On the wi ole, he did not thi nk that a change of the prefent fygem would be atten ded with advantage. Sir JAMES PULTENEY laid, that the experi stunt which Gentlemen wilhedto have tried refpeeting the enlillment of men for a term of years initead of laving for life, was made by the Bill of the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Pitt) without interfering with 1 the regular recruiting. In this way he approved of it, but did not approve of putting the whole military eflabliffiment en fuch a fonndation. The Hon. Colonel alluded to the King of PfilaieS fyllem by way of pre cedent. It was true, that the foreigners who entered that Monarch's fervice were engaged for a limited time ; but the natives were obliged to continue as long as their fervice was deemed neceffary. Frost every confederation he was able to give to the fubjett, he did ant think that the change propofed would be advantageoug. General NORTON laid a few words expreflive of his opinion to the fame effeet. Sir WILLIAM ERSKINE obferved that all Eu rope had tried the fame military fyllem which we were trying, until they found it became impraflica ble ; they all in their turns were obliged to adopt a fyllem of compalfion to raife their military force, and we Ihould ultimately be obliged to adopt the fame fyllem. He had heard the meafures of the Ho noorahle Gentleman debated in the army for thefc mewl' years, but it was always concluded they were impradicable. He was fo far from looking on the :yttem of Volunteers as the Hon. Gentlemals did, chat he felt no jealonfy whatever, nor did he know -soy officer in the fervice who did, on account of the promotion of officers among the Volunteers. He had teen many Volunteer Corps perform duty, and had great pleafute in teeing them do it fo well, many of them excellently. In thort, taking the .Volunteer Syllem in its true Nett for our defence, be regarded it as the 'beet anchor of the country. Mr. STUART-WORTLEY law no reafon for jealoefy in the regular army at the manner in which Volunteer Officers were promoted to rank, nor did he fee how that types could be avoided. He Ihould not be afbamed to take the command of a Company of Volunteers any more than of the bell Regulars in the fervice, fo wet did they condo& themfelves in general. Mr. WINDHAM obfereed, that the tykes adop ted by the whole of the perfons in Europe. with re fpclrt to their armies, was by eolilling for time : that !y' em he confidered aspreferable to any other. The Honourable Crank:Nut eotitelldsd p that the additional fork rill, on'which fo much had been de.' pended, failed in its operation : infiead of producing' within the lag two years a force to the amount which bad been prediaed, only ao,ooo men were railed in addition to the infantry, 8000 of which were pro duced by the expedient of reducing the Militia.— There were four modes of recruiting, namely, the old one of regimental recruiting, Rag' recruiting, the ar my of referee, and the Right Honourable Gentle man's (Mr. Pitt) Great Sheet Anchor, which was to do more than all the relt put together, but which, it is evident, from the Noble Lord's own flatement, is near its exit. Though the Noble Lord was not pre pred to :Wert the bombers it had produced, yet he went the length of afferting, that, though it did no good, it did not interfere with recruiting, and it was therefore advifable to let it go on. This reminded bim of a certain apothecary, who, after adminiftering certain drugs, which were to have the dial of curing a difeafe, and being told by the patient it was of no des to go on with them, the difciple of Galen laid, there sno harm to try again." So with this famous medicine, stdminiftered by the Right Hon. Gentleman, the country having got the gripes, they were advifed to fly it agaiq. The Right Honour able Gentleman obferved, that the cubic% had been fo ably difculfed by his Honourable friend, that it was unneceffary for him to enter into it : with all that he had urged, he perfealy agreed. Sir JAMES PULT.FNEY explained. The SECRE I'ARY at WAR correaed an error into which Gentlemen had fallen with refpea to the difporabk Briti(h force, which he Rated to be, on the ill of January, 18os. Cavalry, 2 1 ; 200 ; Infantry, 103,607, from which numbers were to be deduaed 20,000 for limited fervice, leas i.ag a total of 104,817 for unlimited fervice. On the tlt of June (taking the comparifon of the fix months) z e,OOO Cavalry, Infantry 1 ts,ooo, dedua for limited fervice, i 7,000, leaving a total of 11g,000. By this Ilatement it would be teen that the difpolable force had increafed' within the laft fix months is,ooo. The Right Hon. Gentleman had complained that his Nobte Friend laid the Bill for raifiug an additional force would do no harm ; what his Noble Friend had faid was, that it would not do any harry to the recruiting. The Bill aetually had railed 5;96, out of which number 1167 were loft. The total remaining would be of courfe .1.4.±9, and within the 101 l four months the total railed was 779 a. In the courfe of the year 11,coo men had been added to the Britilh Army. Colonel CRAUFURD replied to lonic of the ob fetvations made by the Noble Lord with Mix& to the Volunteer fyllem : no doubt many of the indivi duals compofing it were very good men, but as a 10: tem, he thanght it the molt ridiculons that any Go- vernment could invent for the defence of the kingdom. With relpett to the officers, they of courfe were good fort of men ; but he could not conceive how perfons in trade were fit and proper to have the command of Regiments. for inllance, a pairy rook as Colonel of one of the regiments. He had nothing to urge againit him; he betieved, from what he had heard, he was a good fort of man, of education too, but then he was not calculated to make a good officer, and could make his paltry things much better than command a regi ment. He noted this merely to Phew the folly as well as impolicy of appointing men to high commands not having military rank ; for his part, he confetred, he should not like to be commanded by fuch men, which might happen, as he had the honour to be only a Lieutenant Colonel. The Honfe then called for the queßion, the gallery was cleared, and we under(tood the Noble Lord's motion was agreed to, and of cow fe Col. Crauford's negatived.--The Houle adjourned at One o'Clock. ELEVENTH JPORT. REPORT eV THE SELECT COMMITTEE UPON THR ELEVENTH REPORT OT THE COMMISSION Or NAVAL tug!? t RV. The Spica Committee to whom the Florenth Report of the Com. nuflioners of Naval Enquiry, rapeaang the ilfue of Navy Bills for the purpofe of r ding money; lofs :telling from the mole of p.yittg the 'ntereft on Navy ant Tranfp at Bills; and money imprettcd by the Navy Board for Secret Naval Services (except to t.r a. the fame relates to eircuinftances cooneded with the if rue of too 0001. for the Secret Naval Services) was referred ; have agreed upon the following Report : Your Committee have taken into confiJerati , n the matters in the Eleventh Report of the Comm Antlers of Naval Enquiry, referred to them, in the order in which they are Rated in the Report ; 4r.d have called for and examined loch perfons an J. documents as they thought neceffary for the elucidation of the tranfac tions, concerning which it was their duty to report to the Houfe. They infect, in the Minutes and Appendix hereunto annexed, the whole of the parole evidence given be fore them, including. both the queftions put to the perfons examined, and their anfwers ; and alfo, co pies of fuch written documents laid before them as teemed material for the confederation of the Houfe. In (Omitting this body of evidence to the Houfe, it teems to them that they difchatge, in the moll ef feaual and fatistaftory manner. the molt effential part of their duty ; but they have alfo thaught it pro per to introduce that evidence with the following statement relative to the three Leads of invelligation contained in the Paid Report of the Commiffioners of Naval Enquiry : z. With regard to the fir& head, entitled :in the Eleventh Report. 66 Boot of Navy Bills. for the pur ple of railing money"—lt appears that the (applies granted by Parliament for the fervice of the Navy, in the beginning of the year I Soo, founded on the ufual eltimates, amounted to the turn of 53,256,5791. ;35. ltd. and in the beginning of 18ot to the gum of 16.4:9,5371. ;as. ad. It i 6 the cuftom of the Navy Board to coiled, from the different departments to which the expenditure for Naval Services belongs, about the month of Sep. tembar in each year, materials for the purpofe of en abling them, by accounts of the otultanding demands, and computations of the farther expences likely to be incurred during the remaining part of the year, to form a compat iron between the aggregate amount of fuch outlianding demaads, and of thole likely to am crue, on the one hand, and the balance ss hich may then remain unexhaulled of the fum granted for the Naval Supplies of that year, on the other hand • and the Comptroller .of the Navy, at the end of that month, co.mmynicates the particulars and refult of this comparifon to the Trertfury ; in order, in cafe fuch balance fhostid appear to tall Ilion of the necef .fary or expelted dllburfements, that means thould be ufed for making ecid t,be acficipcy• • ' About iris period of the year I Soo, it appeared • that the (urns remaining unapplied of the Grants for Naval Services for that year, amounted only to 34330)231 ; and it was computed that the demands outltanding, or to accrue before the end of the year, would probably amount to an excels beyond that fum, of 2,500,0cr01. This excels, in fall, did amount to 1,522,5491. 6s. told. A confiderable part of the ontßanding demands of courfe confilted of Navy Bills, which, under the law as it now Stands, are made payable ninety days after their date. Of the accruing demands, many were fuch as Mull be paid for in ready money. If the remaining balance of the Naval Supplies of the year had been applied to pay off the Navy Bills then becoming due, there would not have been car left for the necellary payments in ready money. Parliament was not then fitting. It had been pro- rogued, on the 29th of Jnly, to the 7th of Oaober, and on that day to the Is th of November, when it met for the difpatch of bufinefc. If application had then been made to the Houfe of Commons, for a new grant in aid of the deficiency in queflion, the money could only have been obtained Iby a loan, or by the arse of Exchequer Bills und er la vote of credit. It appears that the regulation eftablilhed under the A& of the 37th Geo. Il 1. c. z 6. limiting the term of payment of Navy Bills to ninety days, had been adop ted with a view to remedy the great difadvantage which had accrued to the public during. tVe latter period of the time, when their term of payment was fifteen months, under the previous Aft of 43 Geo. 111. C. 21. ; for at that period, owing to the great augmentation of our Naval Expenditure, thofe Bills I having been iffued to a very large extent, had been depreciated fo much that they could not be difcount ed, or converted into oath, without a lots fometimes of 141. per cent. or more. The fifteen months bills bore an interea of only 41. per cent. This evil had been (till greater under the forater courfe With regard to Navy Bills, when there was no fixed time or obligation for their payment. The hold ers then depended entirely on the difcretion and con venience of Government for the receipt of their mo ney,lxing alfo only entitled in the mean time (after the &ft fix tnonths) to the like intereß, at the rate of 41. per cent. per annum; and thefe Bills having been ac cumulated to a WI amount during the American war, bore a difcount of from 131. to upwards of ISI. per cent. They were afterwards fundednpon terms calculated on their atltual value to the hollers, at the time of funding them. On the &It introdu&ion of Bills payable in fifteen months, they (offered little or no depreciation ; and they had this advantage from the length of their term of payment, that (though money could he demand ed for them at the end of that period) if the fupplies appropriated to Naval Services fhould fall fhort of the demands daring the year in which they were iffued, it was almod certain that Parliament would meet be fore they became due, fo that Government would have the means, by a parliamentary grant, of mak ing a farther provifion for the payment of them. It is proper, in this place, to mention, that although the grants annually made by Parliament for Naval Services, form a fpecific fum adapted to the amount of the eltimated expenditure for the year, yet the :Lanai expence, and the amount of the deht which may be contra:fled, neither is nor can be fixed, but Imay exceed the grants to an extent which mull ne ceffarily be commenfurate with whatever may be the amount of the excels of fervices beyond what had been forefeen and included in the previous estimates, and of the excels of the juices of articles included in the estimates beyond the rates according to which thrift eflimates have been formed. While therefore Navy Bills had no limited time of payment, there could be no unavoidable occafion for a froth fopply of money during the courfe of any year, beyond what had been ;Kr anted for the Naval Services of that year, unlefs the very improbable occurrence had happened, of the grant falling thort of the de mands neceffary to be paid with ready money ; and the fame obfervation applies to the cafe of 13 months bills; but this very circiimitance it was, which was fo detrimental to the public intereft, by operating as the principal caufe in producing the depreciations above mentioned, and thereby enhancing to Govern ment, in the proportion of tilde depreciations, the prices of all thole articles of navy and vittualling Bores, for which Nary Bills were to be given in payment. The palling of the A& 37 Gen. 111, c. 26, fince which all Navy Bills had been made payable at the fhort date of yo days, having put an end to loch depreciations, has, the Committee believes, been univei filly felt, and acknowledged to have been a meafure of the irtmott benefit, in point of economy. To prevent fuch depreciations was the principle of that meafure. When it was found, as has been already Rated, in the month of September, iBOO, that what remained of the grants appropriated for Naval Services, beyond what would be required for ready money payments,' was not fuflicient tar the difcharge of the bills out !landing, it became a matter of the utmost import-1 ance so confider of lime method of providing for their difcharge, by which the praftical advantage of the principal might be preferved, without immediate ly reforting to Parliament for a hen grant of naval fupplies ; for it appears to have been the opinion of perfons eminently qualified to form a fati , fatory judgment of the matter, that any additional Parlia mentary grant at that time, whether the money &mid be railed under it by the iffue of Exch.quer Bills, or othet wife, would have been attended with the very difadvantage which the meafure of the nine ty day bills had been calculated to prevent ; as fucli Exchequer Bills, or other Government fecurities, on which the money required in that cafe mufi have been obtained, would, in the opinion of thofe perfons, have borne fuch a difcount or depreciation of value. as mull not only have greatly enhanced the expenditure of the navy, and that of all other public departments, bat alfo have proved highly injurious to the monied interell of the country, and to the public at large. • Under the circumstances which your Committee have thus endeavoured to explain, it was determined, by the principal financial department of Government, i to propofe to the holders of Navy Bills about to be come due, to accept of frefh bills of the fame fort, made payable in like manner as thole they might; choofe to exchange againa them, leaving it however' to their option to receive, if they (bould prefer it, roman in call), according w Ote obligation of the original bills; public notice of this option war. ' inily given, and renewed Bills were ac c,l7d u exchanged againft old ones to' a cn:aider.thle event, the amount of the intereil due on ttrt included in the principal fum made payaos. e end of ninety 'lays from the date of the new one. , It will immediately occur, that any pen ba%irg accepted fuch a ieuewed bill, who lbould After waiL.s have occallow for ready money, had it in his power to difpofe of it, like any holder of any other Navy Bill, for the full amount fpecificd in it (thefe bills never having (offered any depreciation) ; deducting only the intereft which remained to accrue beta eta the time of his converting it into oath, and the tinge what the bill fo difcounted was to become due; and it cannot but be fiippofed that .rotny perfons found it convenient to at in this manner. however, though many hlltlers of ninety-day bills had availed themfelvet of, Ole opporittnity of exchanging them for new bills, it w.ts found that the amount of bills outflanding and not offered to be es. changed, was confiderablv beyond the difp 'fable past of the Intexhaulled fup;olies of the year; and, upon this difcovery, the Treafury determined to UN: other Navy Bills, made payable to a merchant Of the name of Glenny, and afterwards to the honfe of which he was a partner, under the firm of Donaldfen and Glenny (fuch bills being Rill made payable at 90 days after the date ;) and Mr. Goldfmid, the gentle man who had been long the agent of G.svernnient in the negociation of ExChequer Bills, and other buri n-els of that nature, was employed to difpofe of thnfe Navy Bills in the ufual way in which filch fecurities are turned into cafh, and to place the money received upon them at the difpofal of the Navy Department, in order to be applied to the difcharge ot loch pith= bills falling due, as the holders wore o•tt willing to ex change againit renewed bills. Thofe bills fo negotiated by Mr. Goldfmid, Were difpifed of by him, not only without lots, but with trifling advantage to the pub:ic, as explained its his evidence given before your Committee ; and with no other charge for his fervice in the buftnefs than the ufital commitlion of 1-3 th per cent. which he has been accultomed to receive from Government for ne gotiating Exchequer Bills. It will be obferved, that, fo far as old bills were exchanged againft new ones, or paid off by cash ob tained on the negociation of new ones, no navy debt was created ; the new bills, in fad, only reprefenting and becoming the fecurity for that which had beets created by the purchafes or other fervices for which the old bills were originally ;lined. It will alfo be obferved, that the only difference between the two cafes ot bills exchanged for new ones and thole paid off by means of the negotiation of new ones, was, that in the Ertl inflance, the hold. ers of the old bills accepted, in lieu of them, Ot.ittt which they could, and probably often did, negotiate fcr calls ; and that, in the fecoud indance, the Navy Board themfelves procured new bills to be netitiated for the purpofe of paying the holders of the others with calls. In both cafes, a longer credit was ob tained for the actual ciircharge of the debt, for which. the orit,inal bills had been the fecurity, without any depreciation or additional charge, beyond what arofe from the mere lengthened time of payment, and, its the latter cafe, with the addition of the per tentage allowed to Mr. Goldfmid. Therefore, as in farm, the limitation of the ninety days was adhered to its both cafes, fo, in effed, the benefit of tlac principle on which that regulation had been eflablithed, was tanned in both. _ A fuccclflve iiTue of bills, in the manner and for the purpofe above Rated, appears, by the account No. 4, in the Appendix to the Eleventh Report, to have been continued from the 24th of Oftober rBOO, to the 7th of March, 18ot. Of courfe, fuch of them as were iftued between the commencement of fle and the date laft mentioned, mull have been paid off before the month of September in that year. In that month a fimilar =afore was retorted to, on account of a like deficiency, as on the former cc cafion, in the naval grants of that year, as cotopared with the expenditure, On the Ili of September, 18ot, the fum remaining in the Exchequer, unapplied, of the grants for Naval Services for that year, together with a balance in the hands of the Treafurer of the Navy, and alto t,oeo,ccol. paid to him out of the Vote 'of Credit, amounted only to 2,803,0581. ss. B}cl. and left deficiency, according to the eftimate then formed, cf above 2aooohoool. The aCtual excel; of expenditure, daring the three remaining months of the year, ap pears to have been 2,363,1311. 15s. 01. Parliament ie that year had been prorogued on the zd of July, and was not affembled for the difpatels of bufinefs till the 29th of October, after intermediate prorogations on the 6th of Augull, the 15th of Sep tember, and the 22d of October. For the detail of the mires which produced the excels of dilburfements and demands over the elli mates made, and fupplies granted at tile refpeEtive commencement of each of the two years t 800 and 180 t, your Committee &fire to refer to the eviden;e. They think it fufficient here to (late in general, that the mode of including in the fixed fum of 71. per man per lunar month (from which 55. is &deed in the firft inaance, and paid over to the Ordnance, leaving only 61. 15s. per man for the Navy), all the Navy and Vietualling Stores for the year, whatever may prove the eventful rates at which Croce Rotes than be procured, mutt nee:Airily li.nder the conef portdcuce between the total amount of their adual cat, and the proportion allotted to them out of the grant fo dated, very prccarit:us and uncertain; and that in fait the prices of tome of the molt mate rial of thole articles had been, at the priods in quer tion, extremely enhanced, in confequence of the ru tu• e which had taken place between Rolla and filos count, y. The reafons which have been afligned to your Com mittee for the fira adoption of the meafure in 'Soo, have been explained. The continuance of the alms during the enfuing year up to the month of March, mull be referred to the known flare of public affairs, both foreign and domeftic, in the firft months of that year, The particular fituation of affairs,in confequence of the negotiations for peace depending in the month of September, tBQ I, appears to have rendered it ex tremely anadvifable, iu the opinion of thole whole duty it was to judge of that m period to Parliament, in order the itue of Exchequer Bills, mining the motley wanted for 14sry flubs thee fans slop MINIZEIN matter, to retort at that r to procure a loan, or for tl)e purpofe ob• the thicharxe of the irrns over.