Star. — London, England, 1818-03-06 00:00:00

FIIILLI a t e ,toed in s ous e on th o r encomi ken so bus spiqion ()fa k bad late] t hose Perm' had apl to conce State, hi r espec nediately thsyaglit it p • ; que li.v,aters its so ding the attentio enz'lcY r c;ly ; for — tr . to a F.:: of crcat Ins touch 1 , -t lower 01 clzsi ;1..1 not ~ f. 72 fanta e :".lem • a L. I ialeTer s w • thouicl orti ausil sec had es 1 0-. had an occasion w • COITMII •;;Sth of 7 .11 whom he 1. s-as as gri inih:ary se he never jets ci a lie Lid a: fee i..g s, : curt' .1 t la r.ig to con play the In bance. ded to sul:i his :tiajesty lag di;reip ves. It n% tithe Iluu! i:ct of el:e rag-ed MA. The teas presen, hated it Oil s•zi: had b • of ?. 7.!7e,, :vas ,rs more age CTIT • rd fcr e ~ :•dpoand did not s t ern C • agents a:. that —,rig the ' :nigh is mi th !els were til that w designs pr.( . that his 1 plot, if the ted ; but t convenient Isom plan been blinisters who had I Ile (met " Th3t the &crr Lords' Cr ble !, , t, C 6c;,,ffec!i!.r, r. i_oino I. , is which . .cew7.,rd setzch e l :.i . .n.:hcst • '. , 'cniFters • ....red a , t r. the fi i • ...ng stor t- 7 75. L r• - ••••11:-.et t 0 ,h 7 "-• ci :1 to • r::ee n • • ".• ••••:. les then said, thattlie wished it to be un ethe outset of what he had to offer to the t hi s occasion, that he did not meals to pass nnium on those itinerant orators who bad Al in various parts otthe country. His d from wha t' t h es e persons might be gathere :ly said in the way of advice to one of ins. Since he had come to town that per lied to -him, on. which he advised him :ern himself about politics or the affairs of rut to attend to his faMily and his business. r espect to the subject to which be wished more iy LO call the. attention of ,the House, he pro per to say, that he was aware that a ion ' of the people had been in a great state , and that the most important and mo;t Jestions had been discussed by half-starved and manufacturers. - Such a state of things ag erous, a that it ought necessarily to attract Am (l• of evernmeat. if it was necessary to • l e a , they ought to be watched most ma ke it must be evident that they had the a dreadful extent, not only of discovering, sting danger. (Hear, hedr.)- That danger greater w'er.n they were employed among orders that if they were sent among the of society ; for among the latter they ;koly to acqe:: e much influence, but with their supei iol- information was likely to much influere e, and so to make them be leaders and directors, and proMoters. of violence v.l.ich would not otherwise' have ight oL I: v..c widt much satisfaction that authorised by Sir John Ityng to state, that no 'icr been employed by that gallant officer, any such ever been in'his carriage, on any whatever,: and farther, that he never had iunication• with such characters up to the -larch. Whoever knew the gallant officer heti named, must :know that his humanity treat: as his courage, and that on whatever service it might be his duty to be employed, was fergettai of what was due to the sub : free state. (Lste/ cries If Hear, hear, hear.) along a.::ed under the influence of these and owing to that had more than once in le displeasure of the Magistracy, by declin :ample with their too great eagerness to em military in the suppression of any distur \Yid; respect to the motion which he iaten era to the Howe, he was not aware how .y's Ministers could oppose it without shew )ect to the Reports of the Secret Commit :as stated in the lieport of the Committee ise or Lords last year, alluding to the con ale. that they had in some instances encou ;Lfp Which they were intended only to pre same thing was stated in various peti see; to the House, and the persons who afered to prove the extent of the mischief been produced. They stated that the infor- Ministers was furnished by hired spies and and agents of the Police. What spies now pretty well known. Were Police tore creditable ? Were there not instances gents iucitieg unfortunate individuals to imes, in the hope of participating in the their conviction ?--(hear, hear.) Perhaps was not awaee of the amount of these re sat there were instances of three hun ids being giver. for a single Tyburn ticket. A mean to say that the disturbances in the Counties were to be attributed solely to 3 of Government. Neither did he mean in the immense population of Lancashire, 900,000 inhabitants which- it :contained, ;ht not be found sonic ready enough to en iischievous projects. But all the facts re he state of L.iacashire sheaved, that, not ing the efforts of the spies, only a few per e found ready to engage in their designs. was wanted was a strict, rigid, and impar- Iry, to shew them where the guilt of these iroperly attached. He did not mean to say Majesty's Ministers could have created a le elements of a plot had not previously exis . this he would say, that the plots were most nt to Ministers, by diverting the public mind ms of economy and retrenchment ; and hav t thus convenient, it was very natural that s should come forward to screen those agents been so useful in fomenting these plots.— :hided by moving, t the Rouse, taking into consideration the Reports of : Committees of the last Session, and the Report of the matinee, communicated to this House on the 234 of 50 far as related to thc encouragement afforded to by persons in the employment of Government, and 1•:to consideration the allegations in the various Feta :he same s:ibject, thought it necessary that an inquiry !ist.t.ed into practices of so alarming a tendency." ROBINSON was astonished at the manner t tee Right Hon. Gentleman had brought his motion, after the very extraordinary :e made of precenting the Petition from ;ter, m which he made midis charges against rs. How came it now 11.1 , i completely and abandoned the ero sad -n %%1101 he stood, former occasion —(hear, hase)2 There were +ries then about Dewhurst and Loniay. being 'he fact was, the Hon. Gentleman 1. tiew from Byne, they never were Wes ; r.o. did the .ment Know of them, other than as conspire max was apprehended on the 2gth of March, and subsequently dismissed. Ile was sure not controvert this statement. With re- . :hese two cases, the main pillar of the Man ?eeition, they were broken down, and with t ill the ground fcr referring the Petitions ! -- . , ..ttec! of Inquiry. The Petitioners had the propositions were made to them. but S?tes and Informer. Here then was an ::1:1t the.; were made. Tip: infers-nee was, '. 7 ^re n,:•: quite so unpal.it,tble :v.. the con wi,ll the House to believe. Lomax ,Ind with respect to eFtahli'lling the else, shoniel be alive. It was throlgh rots of Lomas, that Bam:ord, one o f th e taken up, and he was :lot appl-ehend :.-c act r: so that it Hipossible b .?eliced by Lomax. Ilic same for the warrant againq 117.11 'l , ll not aft.er ()li7er had pliir down to Sco;land. ':any et' the transacti.vas mint hive been Iby Mitchell. Again, that p;ous t ; , aracter, and, wished to induce the to credit 11., at, wdl as Haynes, pro- fessed a, great regard for religion. ,Unfortstnit4y, it so.happened for the . characenr of naples s Ai *as , convicted . of perjury, in NA% safoin to an ; order to procute-the accfuittil of a man nessiedSlater, charged; with the crime: of shooting at a man Who attempted, to arrest him for frame-breaking. Next As sizes Slater pleaded Gailtrof the frame-breaking; thus falsifying the testimony of Haynes given on the first trial--(hear, hear). Of a similar description were the whole of the Petitioners, lie did not think that the Honourable Gentleman had laid down any grounds., for agreeing to the motion. On behalf of s calum niated Government, and a caluAniatect Magistracy, he should object to the motion. . . Mr. F. DOUGLAS supported - the motion. With respect to the man Loma/nit is trite that he was ap prehended ; but was it not also true, that he alone was liberated out of the twentyssix apprehended with him ? The inference was plain, that he at least was in favour with the Government ; or would they have dismissed him ?—(hear, hear.) The motion was made with a view of giving the flonoutable Gentleman, the Member for Bramber (Mr. sWilberforce) an op portunity of supporting the enquiry, for that Ho nourable Member had pledged himself so to do. With reTect to I laynes, of whom the Right Hon. Gentle man had spoken, he had nothing to do with the pre sent motion. It would be recollected that the House wereon the eve of parting with all chance of enquiry, the Indemnity Bill was before the House. .The Ho nourable Genteman contended, that for the sake of Ministers, the House ought to go into the inquiry, they were responsible, and an enquiry would shew. whether the confidence reposed in them by the "rouse was well or ill placed. If, however, Ministers were determined, instead of punishing, to protect, these Spies, then let the mischief of such protection fall on their own heads. Let the I 1 use recollect, if they did not afford inquiry, they would sanction every species of vice under the mask of-Spics and Informers. The House must be aware of the manner in which these persons were fitted out by the Government for the purpose—they were sent out to entrap and deceive men who possibly would not have thought of crime without the temptation of the veriest scum of the earth. Was this fitting for a moral Secretary of State ? Was it proper for him to prostitute his high character to such unworthy purposes—to become die associate of hired Spies—them, who went about seeking for blood, to cram their own mercenary pockets, and who when found out, recognizei in their high coadjutors protectors and friends--(hear.) He commented in glowing terms Of disgust on the immoral tendency of such associations and such pro tectors. What would be the consequence ? \That effect would it have en Police Officers ? Why, they would have their Olivers and their Spies.' They would imitate the Secretary of State, and shelter•their evil condcct under his wings. ( Hear.) Bait Mi nisters would say, all that they had done was by way of prevention. Let them, however, see to whateffeet it led. He accused them of casting a firebrand among the public—of hearing piftial evidence—of calling that treason and rebellion.; which, in fact, wasnothing more than sedition or riot. He . charged them wit suppressing letters ) and readiig o thers which suited , their own purpose. • Mr. BLACKBURN rose to say, that he was au,i thorised by his Constituents •to state to the House, that the Petition which had been alluded to bore nn proportion in respect to numbers to those who were I of opinion that they owed all the comforts and quiet to which the country is indebted,-to the conduct of, the Magistracy. The Hon. Gentleman read a letter to this effect, which generally stated, that Requisi tions had been issued for a public Meeting by Ogden , and Benbow, two of the Petitioners, and refused ; that the Hon. Member (NI:. Phillips) had printed his speech in all the Manchester Papers, -and circula ted it in sheets, at a price to meet the wishes cf the lowest person ; and that, in fact, every means had been resorted to to impress the House with ar. idea of the inhabitants being disposed to be friendly to the Petitions, which was not the case. _ .Mr. T. COURTNEY said, for some time he was at a loss to know what was the object of the present motion ; but at length he discovered the object sof the Hon. Mover ; it became apparent on the Hon. Mem ber's own statement. His object was, to put this ten-times told tale of calumny in such a shape as should obtain for it the support of the Honourable and respected Member for Bramber. In this, how ever, he (Mr. Courtney) trusted the Hon. Member would be disappointed ; since he must be allowed to say, that in his opinion the feeling of the country at large, and even of the majority of those inhabiting the place from which the Hon. Member had drawn his conclusions was different to what the Hon. Member had represented. He (Mr. Courtney) had as great an antipathy to spies and informers as the Hon. Gentle man had ; and if it was proved that the charge now brought against his Majesty's Goverrnsent was well founded, the present motion should have his support. The Hon. Gentleman had set out with a high eulogium on the Noble Lord who presided over the Home De partment ; yet in the same breath he had talked of Spies and Informers fitted out and dispatched from London. In what part of the evidence laid before the House, ho would ask, was the proof of this fact to be found ? Would any Gentleman say that 01;ver, whose name had been so often mentioned, had been fitted out from London--(her, hear). He did not', perfectly understand the meaning of that cheer.-1 Would the Gentlemen who cheered give any proof that he was ?—(Louder cheering.) If Gentlemen had any such proof, he challenged them to produce it. The contrary had appeared all through the proceed-, ings during the trials at Derby. Mr. Denman once put the question, but he received such an answer as he did. not like. and never thought fit to put it a" second time. With respect tc. the present motion for, inquiry, he thought it should not be adopted in its present shape, unless upon the strongest proof of ne cessity ;no such necessity had yet beer. shewn. The evidence of the Magistracy was such as decidedly proi , ed the necessity of the measures which had been adopted, and he trusted it would not again be said, or be !aid serioasly, that the Magistracy of the coun try were not credible evidence on this subject. He could not agree to this motion, which had for its ob ject to go into inquiry again on every particular case. This was not necessary, since it appeared, from the Report of the Secret Committee, which it was no de reliction of duty on the part of the House to believe, that not a single person had been arrested except on deposition upon oath. He was one of those who voted last yeti' ter tilt Eittipadiesti At:El Old he de* tett ,1411ritistified in iraysni done, SO. He thought Sub 'es'AnAs 110 isiVeed the oorTeetness Of. tire Re on Which that &bi- ore was adopted; and he did not "conildetertht eireitinsfruice of there having been no more Reanidable rising of the people any proof against the eeoliesity of the measure. Upon the grounds that ub Parliamentary foundation had been laid for the motion, he should oppose it. Lord LASCELLES thought there was to found* tion for the Motion of the honourable Gentleman, and he was persuaded that the . Hon. Gentleman had himself abandoned it. The Noble Lord entered into a defence of General Byng, who, he said, had combined the characters of citizen and soldier ; and he was happy in having this opportunity of saying, publicly, that, in his opinion, General 13yng was en titled to the thanks of the peaceable inhabitants of the counties in which he had acted, for his prompti tude ; and also, that the deluded people themselves were under infinite obligations to him for having pre vented them, by his vigilance and promptitude, from running themselves into danger. On the subject of spies, he had no predilection for them any more than the Honourable Gentleman had, or did he think that a Government was justified in sending spies into the midst of an inflammable body to irritate them ; but where was the proof that Government had done so on the present occasion, or that spies hid been im properly employed? There had been petitions, in deed, presented to the House, stating that fact ; but who did those petitions come from? why, from per sons implicated irt treasonable pi:sakes. Had any mhers complained of the improper employment of spies ? and surely the House would no: decide on the testimony of persons so prejudiced as all these petitioners wet e. Lord MILTON thought there was already suffi , dent information before the Howse to justify a call for further enquiry. The conduct of Government was most extraordinary ; they joined badly in the cry against Spies, yet they would not allow the con duct of Spies to be enquired into. The House wai allowed to enquire into the expenditure n: the Civil List, into the Army Estimates, &c.; but the system of Espionage was that alone into which t ie profane . eyes of the House of Commons were not allowed to pry. The Noble Lord commented in str ,ng terms on the system of employing Spies, whit':, he said, must always have the effect of exciting a jealousy in the minds of the people injurious to the Government, Lord STANLEY did not accuse Government of having employed Spies, but lie did ',lime them for encouraging the employment Of them by persons acting in subordinate offices; and for giving too eat' a confidence and belief to the. information whichthey . derived from such sources. He thought further en quiry was necessary ; and, impressed with that opi nion, he should support the present motion. Mr. BENNET did not now inquire whether the Report of this House of Parliament or of the other was well founded. But the question for considera tion was, whether the Honourable Members of this House had laid such facts before the House as called proenaded to &teed the matte of deveritmeat i who were bottnd, in the discharge of their day, to adopt every possible Means of obtaining inkensetion *bed they had reason to believe mischief was ht comes* , plation. The Right Hon. Gentlemen, in support of his argument, cited the opinions of Lord Holt and Lord Chief Justice Eyre on this subject, who held, that in cases of treason, accomplices in treason giving information of the plans of their accomplices, shoul d be encouraged to continue amongst them still, and thus so obtain the means of giving still further iofora mation ; and nothing mots had been done with rr spect to Oliver ; • and whenever the question respect ing his employment was broughtforvrard, he should be prepared to answer it ; and he now challenged the inciitry. With respect to Mitchell, there was a warrant mat b amainst him previous to' the 29th cf April s on which day Oliver left London. AU the instruction givetito,Oliver was, to bring back a true and faithful report of the state of the country. Mr. W. SMITH said, he had been informed that Oliver's character, not only amo his credibility as a witness, but• as to his moral discharge of the most trifling duties of life, was impea c hed ; and that he had for a long series of years been in the habit of defrauding his employers. For this reasOn it was that he would vote for this inquiry, being persuaded that if inquiry was instituted he would be found wholly unworthy of credit. He had received his in formation from the most respectable sources. One person Nra C a partner in a respectable' commercial house in London ; one an attorney, 'and a third the person who had formerly been his employer ; all cf whom were ready to come, forward. and state, that they had never met with a man of such plausibility of manners, united with such a total disregard of every moral duty. He• had been informed by his employer, that in the course of a service of ten years Oliver had defrauded him, by false entries, of 5001. His defence was error of account; and he brought his own daughter forward to swear to certain facts, which she afterwards declared were false, but that she had sworn to them by direction of her father. Mr. BATHURST said, it was certainly true that a dispute had al isen between Oliver and his employer, which w.ts made a subject of reference, and the re sult of that reference was, that Mr. Oliver was in arrear to his employer 200!. but.the arbitrator at the same time ordered that Oliver's employer should pay all the costs of the proceedings. The Right Hon. Gentleman entered at some length into a justification of Oliver's- character, and 'again repeated, that be should be ready to enter more fully into the kuestien, whenever any Gentleman thought proper to bring the subject forward. In justice to Mr. Oliver, it ought to be stated, that his:employer obtained a rule of . _ Court to set the award aside. Mr. •Oliret cause against that rule,, which ryas- discharged eith costs, th:ver.undertaking not to bring - any future ac tion against his employer. He could not conclude, without observing., that Ciendemea, before tkeybrought forward charges so injurious to the characters of tn dividuals, should ascertain that theywere well fOunded. Mr. TIERNEY, before he en tered upon the.qUe-- far inquiry? He was of opinion the House had such titan, desired that the .motion should be read nom information before it, and therefore he voted now the Chair, that Gentlemen might judge for them for inquiry. With respect to what had been said by selves; whether" it had or had not been fairly repre his Honourable Friend respecting Dewhurst, he was sented on the other side, -e-hen they hinted at a sup well founded in saying it. The Honourable Gentle- posed conspiracy against the character of a private man opposite had said hr did not know who Dew- and " tutted-i4Mmti,individuals".llr..oliver.-vEHece hurst was. He would tell the Honourable Gesitle• the Speal.er read the question Accordiagly s .'he Man who Dewhurst was : Dewhurst was the pers,,n House would see, (said ..fr. Tierney), by referring to who, having by his arts inveigled a number of poot the Motion, that the. conspirators spoken of by the deluded individuals into a house, delivered them into Right Honourable Gentleman were composed of 42 the hands of the Police, having himself retired under persons, 21 Members of this House; and 21 belong• pretence of lighting his pipe ; and, as he believed, ing to the other House. The real question for &i -the real name of this individual was Michael Hall. sion, however,. was not as to Spies and Informers. Gentlemen opposite had talked of polluted sources but whether Informers of the two Houses were to be of charge and information. It was well for the ern- supported by the House ? for if they neglected his ployers and fitters out of Castles, Oliver, and others, Honourable Friend's motion, then they would go to talk of polluted sources—(hear, hear).—He now the length of rejecting all enquiry. How stood the called on the Gentlemen opposite to allow of investi- fact ? Here was the testimony •of the Borough-reeve gation and inquiry ; and if they refused to allow it, he and 25 persons, who, if the Right Honourable Gen t would say, that it was their guilt which made them•re- tleman was to be credited, were nearly the whole of fuse it, and caused them to fear to see the light.— the respectable population of Manchester, who would He would ask the Noble Lord, and his colleagues, satisfy the House that the conSpirators,• as they were what had become of Earl Fitzwilliam's letter of June called, were unjustly accused.—(hear, hear, hear.) --s List ? He would not ask why • that letter had not The character of Lomax was bad ; but why, Waco bet. been made public. It was not published, because was arrested with his coadjutors, did the Govern that publication would have opened the eyes of the merit set hiin at liberty on the following morning public, and exposed the whole of their proceedings. after his arrest?" Dewhurst, whose name formerly The Hod. Member then entered into a long detail of was Michael Hall, had, in the early course of his tra; the facts attending what is denominated Oliver's ex- vels, found his way on board the Hulks.. Yet these pedition ; detailed so fully in his speeches on this were the description of men to be protected. He con, subject on former nights. He accused Ministers of demned generally the system of Spies and Informers, having packed a Committee, and garbled and kept which had grown to an alarming height. The Right back evidence ; and observed, he should be glad to Hon. Gentleman went over the various Petitions frond know what had become of Mr. Carter's evidence, a Manchester, Yorkshire, &c. contending that the prac. respectable Magistrate at Sheffield ? He could not tices of Oliver, in respect of his conduct in the North, refrain front again observing on this extraordinary were abominable ; lie went down to that. quarter, p ie . circumstance, which he mentioned oa a former night, tending to be a delegate limn London, talks f . the namely, that immediately on Olivet's being withdrawn, rising in London, and of there being 70,000 rwa all, as if by er.Jrantment, became perfectly quiet. ready to co-operate with their friends in the country. Mr. BATIIIII s - r defended the conduct of Go- This Oliver, under the mad, of rebellion, and clothed re:1:111:T t and of Sir J. Byng, and commented on the under the protecting shield of Ministers, was stiffeied extraordinary conduct now adopted by Gentlemen not only to entrap men into crimes, but also to carry his opposite. A solemn petition had been presented to nefarious designs into eirect—sanctioned, approved (4 - , the !lease, complaining of Government for having and transmitteclby th.: Police Minister, with that oh employed as a Spy a yerson named Dewhurst, and ject. If they refused inquiry, what was the inference ? that el:. man Dewhurst had been seen in Sir J. Why, that something lay hid which Ministers were iiya 's ca:rilze: That fact was denied—Govern- afraid to reveal. the systeni pursued was one of meat sJlemnlY denied any knowledge of such an in- espionage. The Secretary had Oliver for his Spy—. dividual—gi's J. Byng denied knowing any person the Constable had his—the Magistrate his Spy al so , of the name of Dewhurst—the Magistracy of Man- and so on ; so that however much we despised the chester knew no such person ; and the Honourable French Police, which proceeded on espionage, it was Gentleman, not being 'able to get over this denial, lamentable truth, that Great Britain had trodden in now came forward on behalf of his side of the House, their steps. He (Mr. Tierney) did not wish to speak and said his name was not Dewhurst, his real name disrespectfully of the Hon. Member for Bramber, was Mietaol Hall, or something else. The Honour- and certainly, there was no individual more capable ah!c Gentleman to whom he alluded (Mr. Bennet) of giving effective support to Ministers and their had great zeal in the cause which he advocated measures in the House ; or more willing to d o so but he must be allowed to say, the Honourable when he happened, by accident, to be out of it.— Gentleman's zeal frequently got the better of his (Cheers and laughter.) What his vote would be upon discretion—( Near, hear, hear.) It did so in the in- the presmt occasion it was not, perhaps, easy to stance of the witnesses, whose affidavits the Hon. prophesy. If he had given a distinct and unequivo- Gentleman said he had, but whose names he withheld cal pledge upon any question, he would doubtless re .---now these persons stated conversations which had deem it ; but hese it was impossible to speak from • taken place at meetings where Oliver was ; these per-' experience, the case was of such rare occurrence sons, therefore, were present, and afterwards came and generally, his phraseology was happily adapted to , gave information to the Hen. Gentleman. It seemed, suit either party ; and it now and then he lost the I therefore, that the Hon. Gentleman didnot depend:on balance of his argument, and tended a little to one Government Spies, but had Spies and Informers of his side, he quickly recoveaM himself, and deviated as own—(s general kwgh)--and these Spies - and Infer-1 much in. an.opposite direction as would make a it mere of the Honourable Gentleman formed part of division of his speech on both sides. (C2::tin:te. - !:7:ecii.) the combnstibles of which so mach had been heard He knew that some motions were opposed, and per !—(tlear, hear). The Right Hon. Gentleman then haps rightly , on dr: gr , ..7at,d of their being pasty , . i ; , 1 . 1 1 I c it. ' , t , h s . i : N , pi i 1 1 1 1 I i • 1 . . , I j . 4 i . . ip . 1 1 1 I . I ; ; '. ' • , 1 i f r *r : 1 . t . i 1 . t 4v r ; • ' . • I 1 , 1 i 6 1 ! ' 4 ) 4 C t I I .. • q ' i ' 4 li ' 1 , i 1 i I i j 1 . I '' (I I C' ' . . 'l4 1 ;1 l • 1 A A 14 14 1 1 ki i 1 • . I 1 I • I. . 4 ; . il i ei ( i s , •"; „,.4 i 1 1;I 4 t '* • ' ' . 1 ( ) . 1 i i # . 1 ! tr. i I, 0 . t . , I ,