Star. — London, England, 1801-04-23 00:00:00

eel of the Army not being in a flate for the f‘rviee of the coomtry. If not tit for the fervier in F. brnary the Houle would take into confider anon the cireumilances attending t:i:! Expedition to Holland i—ln the month of Anglia, Sir Ralph Abercrombie wok with him between tight :Lod nine thouland men ; theft IM - 11 w, re ...e:.,:nial trnops—the v44ll3ntet) s from the siiliti.t \Vela in tkr ICiond eXl , CciltiOn that lanad at the Udder. This expedition expccted, from whut was tinder flood to he the difpofition of t';ltt people of I Tol land, to receive and a:rurd airdlance ; and a. MI as he could judge, th,re was good ground for the expeclation. It was to be lamented we did not cue ceed to the full extent of our xtillie. ; not that, on the whole, we had reatim to lament having under taken the expedition, or the great means we ufed towards its accomplithmcnt. He wialud thu Houle to reflea on the tit nation of the troops in Holland, and the fatigue, they caperier«.d in eonfequenee of the haduels of the roads and the unfavourible fealon they had to encounter. From their eir. vindlanccs, the army on its return to England, in the month of November, could not he luppoled to be in the mod healthy hate; and the frverity of the isinter that lucceeded mutt have tended to render the troops unfit for foreign fervice they were required by the Right I ion. Gentleman (Mr. Dundas). Great ineonvenieures, he Laid, at tended the ernhai kation tit the Helder—to his knowledge. one regiment (the 9th) did not receive its Itores and clothing for Once months after it landed in England, and he had reafon to . .-elieve many others were in the fame predicament, though not proceeding from any wilful neglett on the part of ate perfons whole but - Inds it was terattend to the wants of thole regiments. On the 28th of Fe bruary, the Duke of York wrote to the then Secre tary of State, that the army could not he in a con dition for foreign fervice for two months, which, under all the eircuniltances, could not be conflru ed into neglett of duty on the part of his Nlajef ty's Minilters. He never recolle6ted having heard the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Dundas) fay the whole army was in a perfed Rate of difcipline.— The Bill to augment the army from the Militia did not pals until O.lluber 1799, and the fecond draft of the Militia did not take place until after the return of the troops from Holland : added to to this, the addition made by the volunteers from the hills Militia, which did not take place till af ter the month of January .Igoe--with fuch an ad dition of men, the army could hardly be confider ed the fame. After the return of the troops from Holland, improvements were found neceirary to be introduced—Rifle Corps were added, and great praftice was required to complete the men in their difcipline, four and five regiments being continu ally ezercifed together; this was going on in the months of February, March, and April. It fhould he recollefled, that when a requilition was made for twenty thoufand men to his Royal Highnefs the Duke of Yotk, they were wanted to fcrvc in a dif rant part of Europe, againft the bet troops of France ; and this very fhortly after the return of fome of our bet troops from a very levet e fervice, in which the health of many of them billeted in no huall drgrre. Hr could tint help thinking the Gentleman had not eflablifhed his chaise of • blame attaching to the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Dundas), becaufe the troops were not ready at the time (fated, and therefore he did not think there was ground for Parliamentary inquiry, and thought the motion ought not to be agreed tn. Mr. \VHisLtasAn Paid he was not convinced by what fell from the Right Hon. Gentleman who preceded him of the impropriety of the motio n . He could not agree that ground had rot been laid for parliamentary enquiry. Tice letter alluded t.• was produced in juilitication of the conduct of his Nlajefty's Minifters, and when . called for after wards, that very juitification is raided; if that was nut pound for parliamentarysvoquity, lie knew or nothing that could be. One fit e f nwn go out of or ice, and others come in and threw a chichi over whatever is blameable in their condua. If any paffage in the letter is not fit for the public eye, the Right Hon. Cc/Ida - nat. fhould not have read any part of it. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has admitted, that at the time the Army went to Holland, it was not fit to be fent nut of the %MM . try—it was fit to co.operate with the people of Holland, but not to attack them us cafe of refin ance. It was very hard that out of an army of po,oco men, zo,ooo could not be found fit for immediate hers ice. He remembered when the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Dundas) was told the army was nut in a hate of dilcipline, his anfwer was, that the army was in a perfect itate of difei plinc. His Majefly's Miiiiilers midi he blameable for not getting better information relative to Hol land, previous to their tending the flower of the Britills army to be expored and dilappointed as they were, and difturbing the kingdom from on e end to the other, by the convevance of troops in every fhape that could be deeded ; and yet when they reached the place of embarkation, the officers were unknown to the foldiers, nr the foldiers to the officers. Allowing for . tlie drafts to Ireland, there remained aBo,ooo etfeetive men, and yet moot) men could not be found ready for foreign fervice, without a delay of two months. The late MinifLrs were continually challenging enquiry, but, when the day came, they took very good care to refute all fuch papers as could lead to it. lie was not furprifed at their condo& ; but why their fuccef. fors Mould refufe the papers his Hon. Friend caked for, he was not able to define. The Chancellor of the Eschequei , he obfervid, has not laid that there is a word in the letter which, if expofed, would be detrimental to the fervice. The CUANCT LLOII of the Excitteivz a apologized for troubling the Houk a feeond time ; he (aid he merely role to fay he forgot to !late that 8600 men bad been fent to Ireland. Mr. Pirr (aid, the Honourable Gentleman who rrtadc the motion prornifed, if the paper was pro- duced, to brilig forward ferioui charges against his Right Hon. Friti.d. lie had heard a great deal of the fame fort of doetritte from the fame quarter. in order to give the Hun. Gentleman an oppor tunity of bringing forw a rd his charges, he !Mould have two want/es in hi. Right Hon. Friend and for they adm.tted that the Dt.kc of York did fay the troops could hot be ready for foreign Irt sire for two month: front the 28th of February ; and tlle'Hnn. Gentleman might mike his acenta tion on this.hea.d any day he rlcaled. As to the lad he pleaded ":.nilty, and was r.:.tdv to meet the queflion whenever the Hon. Connie man bring it forward. He law no nee:entity of incurring the inconvenience of exposing the w hol e hold %lien the filet was admitted ; yet, in the admiiiirao• lie could fee no ground for Pat-halm:mare Inquiry, nn preflimption of hlame. The lion. Gentlemen impofed fin the public by bringing forward litc charges, after," he believed, hilt involuntarily inn; poling upon' thconelves. The Mbjeet should he confidered in all its points. The lion. Gentleman ; (Mr. Whitbread) has tithed, why fb tmall a num- , bcr as zo,oco men could not be 'pared for foreign tl:rvice out of co large a force as 300,000 men ? The lion. Gentleman Mould reflect how mach o f that force Government had the power to how much of it was already employed. It thould be recolleCted, that in this number were included the whole of the Volunteer and Yeomanry Corps ; in fine, the whole ftrcngth of the Empire. The Hon. Gentleman had forgot the men nereflary for for Gibraltar, for Minorca, for the iVed Indies, and all our other pondlions. The Hon. Gentleman might as well include in his enimate of our forces, the whole population of the country. If the army that waS fent on the expedition to Holland had been in the belt hate of difeipline, it would be irrational to expea that it could he ca pable of being lent immediately on litch diflant fervice as Italy, and againn the troops employed by France at that time. Gentleman did not recoi led what had been raid of the extraordinary ener gy of France—an energy that was not much en vied in this country, and never prailcd by Gentle men on the oppolite tide of the Houle, butiwhen dire red again!' this country ;—this fpecies of energy enabled France to raife great armies by violent and unnatural means, and put them into a [late of high difcipline ; while Great Britain, not violating any of the principles of juftice, pro ceeded in that mode which had been obferved in former times. But he mull obferve that that Ar my of Referve, which was led on by that Hero, who was fo much the objet of veneration on the other fide of the Houfe, was not able to gain the vidory of Marengo untill a period had duple,' af . ter its formation, longer than what the Com mander in Chief in this Country had ft:nod to be neceffary to complete the Army that was intended to be fent to Italy. Gentlemen on the other fide of the Houfe talked of the Army that had been fent to Holland, as if it was one and the fame Army ; whereas the fart was, that a part of the firft Armament was not compofed of foldiers from the Militia. There were three great objects to be attained by the Expedition to Holland. The fill W3S that of annihilating the Dutch Marine, in which the Expedition was completely fuccefsful ; the fecond was that of creating a diverfion in fa vour of the Allies of Great Britain, which had the effen of diminifhing thole evils that would otherwile have been produced by the reveries of our Allies on the Continent ; hut the great and principal oat ft was that of refcuing an old any of Great Britain from the dominion and tyranny of France, under which it had fallen. But al though, from eaufe; over which his Majefiv's Government could have had no controul, this latter objeCt did not fueceed, be snuff lay, that having liad the means in their power of improviny, the advantages held out to them, he was mud Fetter pleafcd that his Majefty's Milliners did at the time make ufc of thole Means, than if the.y . had neglelted them. Miniflers would have been highly culpable if they had omitted the opportunity that ',relented itfell at that time.—With refpeCt tothe troops that had been fent, every body moll feel thrt new and inexperienced troops mull ineet . with many difficulties, lint fo much while they were aetually engaged with the enemy, as from thole hardlhips which were called the wear and feat el A campaign. But whoever looked to the conduct of thole troops, undifciplined as they were, would fee that they had, at all time% when engaged with the enemy, done honour to the Britifh name; that in all tefpeNs they were equal, and in lime cafe , fuperior, to thole oppofed to them. It was natu. rid to luppole that troops might he fent on an Expedition of a them operation like this, found than to a diftant part of the world, and to a cli mate to which they had not been feaftined. He was at a lois to fee what blame could be imputed to Mirliners from not having, this force ready b e tore the month of April, itioa. Almon the who' of it confined in drafts from the Englith and hill Militia; the former was railed in Olohei, and thi latter in January preceding. It was impotiihk to itippore that if the kverity of the winter wa• taken into emnideration, this force could I: pre• pared in let's time than it was, to meet Pith at. enemy as was then oppoled to the Aullriant iu Italy. Upon the whole, he did not think there was any ground fur an enquiry, and it might pro-', duce great inconvenience. Mr. Garr laid he had, on many former oeca. firms, heard the Right Hon. Gentleman who had juft fat down, in th,: Very fame tone of voice, give the fame kind of challenge which he gave that day, but, however, he always contrived, by Come kind of dexterity, to prevent that charge being made againft him, which he 21feet:el to be fo de flows of meeting. Notwithftanding the admiffion made by the Right lion. Gentleman, he would advile his Hon. Friend not to lining forward any motion of cenfure :Tahiti the late Mininers ; caufe it would then he laid, that their actnntlion did not furnifh a ground for such a charge ; but that there mull be pofitive proofs; and in thi.nian ner the ILL Id of office was to be thrown over the late Minitici. But the Right Hon. Gentleman; was not contented to let the platter rest here; for, as if he anticipated the chaige that was t.. be made, he entered into a defence of the military adminiftration of his Right Hon. Friemi, and par ticularly of that part of it whip h related to the late expedition to Holland; which, he Lid, had three material objeels. The firft was the taking paeffurn of the Dutch fleet. This certainly few ceeded; and, if the expedition bad ended after that event, perhaps theta:inners or eonduttort. of th::t. expedition might have teen entitled to the thanks of their country. But after the force- under Sit Ralph Abercrombie had accomplifhed this object. another force was fent under the command f his It oval Highnefs the Duke of York for another obj,Cl which had completely friled. The Right I lOnontable Gentleman hated this object to be that of caufing a dit el !ion in favour of the Mier of Great Britain ; if fuch a thing had been l!rioufl% mom to be done, there ss As not on the whop Continent of Europe, a worfc place for miking a diverfton of the enemy's forces, nor a spot whet,. a large nurniaer of troops could he cafier oppofed by the inialleft poilible force. But he would ;A what etre& had this divcrfion produced ? At the sere time the Britilli troops were in Holland, the Rif flans were luffering defeats in Italy from the French army ender the command of Gisieral Maflina. Another objeet was Maid to be that of co-operating with the Dutch, who were the an. tient Aliies of this country, in as to enable them to (hake off the fubjeetion which they laboured tinder. In order to have effected this purpofe, it was neeefiiiry to have previoufly defeated the French army : the landing of troops on the penin fula of Holland, was the wont way by which that could he done; and it was (till more injudicious to have fent troops which, it appeared by the lions made that day, were totally undifeiplined. Let the late Minillers, who charged Gentlemen on his fide of the lioutc sNith contradlaiorr, confider Low fat either he or his friends were contifient in their deelarations; let him recollect, that, at the -time when his Hon. Friend (Mr. Sheridan) had brought forward a motion fur an inquiry into the 'expedition to Holland, it was then faid by the War-Miniller (Mr. Dundas), that no blame could be attached to l'slinifters for the failure of the cape-' ditiOn. That they had fent a fine and well dila. plined army thither. Declarations were made at the finite time, and proofs adduced, that the lois fuftained by the Britifb- forces was very trifling: but now it was confeffed that, notwithfianding that trifling lots fuflained by the fine army fent to Hol land, it was admitted that there were not troops fuflicient to fend on the fervice in which they were required in Italy; and that they were not fit for any 'Hata operation. When Minifiers had been, at the time of his Hon. Friend (Mr. Sheridan's) motion, charged with fending raw and undifeiplined men upon that expedition, it was anfwerod that they had been all taken from the Militia, that contequently they could not be confidered as recruits, but as foldiers who had learned military Jifcipline ; and, in ftiort, that they were as fine a body of troops as ever left the country. But it was very evident from the words of Sir Ralph Abercrombie, that he did not con fider this force as qualified for active fervice. • The Members of Oppofition were attacked. by the Right Hon. Gentleman, when he was making allot. lions to the French Government, for their applaufe of meafures v.hich were never applauded but when direeted this country. He contended that this charge was unfounded in fall. In no part of that Houle had the various initances of tyranny. which took place in France been more feverely 'condemned and reprobated than In the part where he and his friends fat ; and there was tic) man in the Houle who exprelled more than himfelf the abhorrence he felt at thole aels which altered and deftroyed the original principles of the French Re volution. But then the Members of Oppofition were charged with having an extraordinary venera tion for Bonaparte. He certainly conlidered hint as a man of as great talents as any other man in the world : there was no man in modern times who had gained more important vielories—but.before any thing more could be faid in his praife, it was necelfary to wait until he had gained a victory over his love of power, and lhould reftore France to that freedom which it was intended (he (hould znjoy at the tittle of the Revolution. But compare ,lie exertions of Bonaparte with the exertions of thol e who held his power in contempt at the time he had made overtures of peace to this Country ; and then he would appear to polf;fs a manifefl superiority. Ulna was to be moll admired in this great man, was the moderate ufe he had already made of his power. Had he tiled any of thole means for railing and dilciplining a military force which the Itigla Honourable Gentleman alluded zo with loch feverity, he would never have foe. eceded as he had done : the great fuccefs of his exertions proceeded from his having revived the enthufialm of I ranee; without that he never could have railed his Army of Referve ; which lie did in a much lhoi ter time than was alferted by the Right Hon. Gentleman. Now as to the point before the Houle, the only queftion was, whether there was my Parliamentary ground laid for the produCtion of the Paper moved for ? His Hon. Friend corn rla:ned that after all the fonts that had been la rded by that Houle to enable Government to carry on the moll extenfive operations, no exertion had been made—that Minifiers either remained in :alive, or were carrying on contradiftory move. ments, until the enemy had firuck the fatal bloW againtl the Allies : lie wanted therefore fuch a do cument as could e.onliittite a foundation for a charge againft the late Minifters for their rnifcon. duet ; or that fhould point out to the Houle and the Public where the blame actually lay ; for after Lthe declaration that had been made by the Corn. hander in Chief, it was moll evident that blame relied foniewhere. The very fiatements made that day by Gentlemen on the other fide of the Houle, proved that there was ground for a ferious charge againft them : and particularly the eircum fiances hated by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, of baggage being detained, and of the troops not being able to get their cloathing in proper time. — Such an inttance of miiinanagement on the part of Minitters, the Houle was bound to inquire into. As to whether the Paper ought to be produced or not, if the Right Hon. Gentleman would fay that it contain:] other matter which ought nut to be made known-to the public, then his Hon. Friend pair. Ti.:rney ) would move only for fuch parts of at as had been read in that Houfe. He would alk, what right the Late Secretary of State had to read that letwr, or any part of it to the 'Houle? lie had no right to produce it, but as he did, the Houle was bound to go into an iospiry thatilould tl" • .tatt.the l i tit)jtai 1 and vrt incr'uvcnience cru . li atte•produetiort of the part that hal hei•:. ready road.. IVlictlicr his 40 . .11 1 ligloici;ihr t•• inathtt rin Chid had beial guilty cif a tnilinanagentetit oldie artily, or t 1::. late 01 State, the" Houfe was equally bound rn tm Lc) er•quiry, becattil, a let iuus Large w Js ~• blilbcd. J.nrd FOP. KS I S7 , N r c'Jrrnr:Cd the rnr - ition, half, ix- laid, f the militia °tricot:l, ua.o had hip. • up all'their titer and attention to d, recruiting for, and difcipliiiing fire nalitia, were afterwards to be told that the niiiiti3 were•unfit fur ferrice. Sir Janes Sti:erAin teas aA.;il-11 motion; bee:lute hr eironfidered thr to -lave been - a confidential leoer, that : not to lie produced to the public. Colon 1 I Tort adverted to what hai f:•-• • Mr. Grey retiseethig the expretllo h in Sir Abereronibie'a letter on the taki:• the with regard to the Militia, and laid that that I.rdt of men to whom Sir Ralph Abercrntiffi: e tele. did not form any pare of the ernbaikati.in failed with Sir Ralph Abercrombie, but. airlrfl on the 9th, and was employed on the lath, f• that the ftatement of the Charicellor sd the 1.1. • chequer, relpe &Mg the nature oldie Force w1.•,1 4 failed with Sir Ralph Aber cromhie was 1161 con • Mr. nous-due contended, that when any prat of a Papa was read in debate for t h e pofes jollification, the whole ought to lie Froduceel the Houle, unlrfs ftrong grounds - were fh;:wn the contrary. He would afk, betides, whetherit was regular or proper fur any Hon. Member out of office• to produce Papers in his jullification whirls were nut before the Houle ? lf, however, the Right Hon. Gentleman (71te Chancellor of tlx Eschequer) would illy, that any public danger could arife from the produbion of the Paper is queffion, he would give it his negative, but other. wife he mutt fuppert the motion. . Mr. NICHOLLS thought that two fans w-cre t.a• verfally admitted, that in February, iftco, WC Lai not 20,000 men fit to fend on a foreign eipedi. . notwithflanding the great number of the arrnyi, and that the army was then deplorably deficient in ditcipline. If tilde were not grounds for inquiry, he knew not what woul d be ellerme3 fuch by the Houle. It inquiry seas not to be granted on a cafe fu &sang as this, he conceived it was needlefs to pretend to preferve this right when the-fpirit of it was deftroyed. The SECRETARY AT Wale admitted the tilule military force of the kingdom •to have been 300,000 men, but independent of the force re quired for internal defence, and that which was tie cellarily fent to Ireland for the defence of that country, it fhould he recollefled that we did not Rand a very fair chance of military fuccels: fo fmall a force being kept up in times of Peace that it was impoffible to prepare in a thort time a large army in a Rate for war. He thought no blame Was to be imputed to the Commander in Clad' in the inftanee alluded to, neither were ItieNlajefty's late Ministers to • be blamed'for th e Expedition to Holland, which he confidered as highly mcritort• ous. • It was very true that great part of the -arlity Punt .to Holland was unfit to encounter rZ:tetan troops, but it was to be recolleCted that very few French troops could be at that time in Holland, and his Maje,fty's late Minders were perfeetly right in at leaft taking the change of recording that country from the power of its invaders. The Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Tierney) had Rated no parliamentary ground for the produCtion of the Letter, and he would never content to admit, that an intimation of founding upon it a charge againtt any perfuns whatever was a fufficiea kround fur the produCtion of a Paper. General TAR LETON laid much of the milltary misfortunes of the country was to be imputed to the delay wiling from the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Dundas) having reinforced the Arnie out of the Supplementary Militia, when he to have dune it from out of the Ohl Militia, to‘uldcli lie was obliged at Lift to retort. Ile thought the Expedition to Holland r:dh, and that it only tend ed to rivet.falter the fuliji.Ction of that country to the French Republic. Ile confidered Officers leering under the ?relent Adminittration,as bound to tote for the relent motion, to thew their con. denioation of the highly detrimental prattive t quoting garbled and partial ettraits of knots. without giving the whole of what WAS to quoted. It teemed, he thought, extraordinary, that ha Majelly's prefent Minitters, for whom he had a higher tripe& than tot the late Miniltcrs, fhoul4 ,attempt to throw a shield over their predectfler. in office. lie thought the motion ought to he agreed to, fince there might be paflages in the letters, when introduced, which risight t tendl ma. terially to explain that part of it which.lnui been quoted by the Right lion. Gentleman. Colonel Gaosrlsoo. was ag.tittft the motion. General Tait trot; explained. Mr. Liostaaa 14'e:tainted the intention of making infittuation againft any officer employed in his fei-vice, and thought. before Gentle. men charged him with making any loch infinua tions, they thould bring better proof of it. titan they had already dune. Ile was - at a lots how to meet the various and contradidary modes which had been called in to fupport the motion, and which embraced tubjeCts wholly extraneous to the queftion before the licyjfe. Much had been laid relative to the Expeartion to Holland, and the Militia, which had nothing to do with the preten; dilcuflion, 'and he thouLl the:dare not thole fulajats. No blame was, however, to be imputud to the Commander in Chief, and that could on that (core be no übjeaion to the pro- JuCtion of the letter, finee to the ability anti at tention with which that illuftrious Commander had executed the office entrulted to him by his 1t..)41 Father, he (Mr. Dundas) was ready to bear the firungeft and mull positive teltimony. It feerPtda. according to fume Hun. Gentlemen, that it was no part of his duty to form plans of Miilitary Es : lhould have thought this the pnnei , pal part of his duty; but nu, fey thofc Hon. Gentlemen, you mutt look only to detail,- you mud tic whether the (patterdaThts arc clean— ' whether the Cants want tuttons; or 1h mutkeu ~. tel Ni pr , at .col tai foi Tic be me fOl clic th 4 Zr mai hol I a l t dan troc *dr ma of tl leal 3p 1K 4pc spa Pcil Ca far