Star. — London, England, 1825-02-04 00:00:00

• , • superiority than their. a'clversarie If either of these parties—if any country or nation hould_attack us, we should find ineour own coura and resources ample means of resistance. Should any State be oppressed— should the balance of power be endangered, our exer tions wsitild 'not be wanted to protect the weak, or pre serve the whale front danger. From the.struggle of parties we had hitherto abstained from inter lei ing, we had taken no part between diem, and he hoped we should never interfere, either in favour of those whose aim was to put down all liberty, or in favour of those whose aim was to destroy all existing institutions.— On one occasion there was a necessity for us to unite with all the Powers of Europe to obtain a common object ; bat that object was obtained whenever, France resumed her station as a great Power, and we were not di .posed to lend ourselves to their selfish views. There was one particular case is which we had acted even in opposition to them. We had not been hasty in acknow !edging the indei endence of the States of South Ame rica, but we had declared, from the time when the in• surfection broke out, that our conduct with regard to l them would be guided by a view to our own prosperity, and without any reference to the principles or practices followeJ by.other States. We had conducted ourselves in this•m otter with all possible delicacy ; we had run no race for populasity, and given up no principles to secure ourselves commef dal advantages. We hail proceeded . gradually, and taken ❑o step not sanctioned by our principles. When Spain had no longer any troops in these -colonies, nor any means of sending them, it would be also', sl to delay ackuowledging these Powers, out of any zendes ness to Slain, or out of respect to an extra vagant claim, though supported by atther European Mese' s. These Colonies are now Republics, they might have f s eeli, like t i.e Brazils, imi es ial ; tt•ith this we have nothing to do, since they are all capable of maintaining their relations with forvign Powers. They are indepen dent of Spain ; and we should rather be blamed for the tardiness than the haste of our recognition—(hear, hear). The colooiei preserve their independence by their own power, lost Spain is garrisoned by 40,000 foreigners, who ate these now to support, but may oyes throw the Government. A comparison had been drawn, he must say absurdly, between the situation of Spain and her colonies, and the situation of this country anal our colonies during the American war. He would not enter into the question of that war; he did not say whether the conduct of this country was right or wrong, but at least we had fleets and armies to support out pretensions. We bad a powerful King, and that King had a people. But Spain claims dominion over colonies situated in a distant country, having no force in them, and without a ship to send to sea, or a regi :pent to embat k. with a tottering throne, bolstered up by an army of foreigners, die most detested of all people, and without either funds or credit. We may be blamed. • for not taking this step earlier, but we cannot be censured for taking it now. We had proceeded with caution and delicacy, for it was a difficult question to decide where insurrection ends, and legal government begins. We had proceeded cautiously- and justly—we had not re cognised these Colonies—they had established their own independence, and neither Spain nor any other Power had anything to blame nsfor, because the ques tion had at length been settled contrary to the wishes of Spain. His Lot ti,hip concluded by saying he would not touch on the 'other topics of the Speech, but content himself by moving the Address. Lord 60ItT observes:, that in rising. to second the' Address, it was unnecessary for him, after the speech of his Noble Friend, in which he detailed the flourish ing state of the country, to take a ge►ieral view of the policy that had been pursued; but as Ireland was likely to occupy so large a portion of the attention of Parlia ment, he hoped that he should be excused for saying a word upon that subject. The distinguished Nobleman at the head. of the Government of that country had con ducted himself to the satisfaction of all unprejudiced persons. Lord Wellesley had been placed in a distres sing situation, but he had extricated himself from it in a manner that could not fail to gain him the esteem of all who bad the welfare of their country at heart. - ft was but justice to the Noble Marquis, to remind their, Lordships, that when lie got to Ireland, neither life nor pioperty was secure ; but by the judicious measures of Lord Wellesley, aided by Pat liament, the deluded were brought back to a sense of duty. - The Insurrection Act had answered all the purposes for winch it was intended, and had been diminished in its operation ; the value of laud bad increased, and, if the lower orders were not led astray, the country would flourish. He wished he could cod hem, tut be 'oust speak of the existence of a bo.iy asserting all the powers of Parliament. They had their Committees of Supply and Finance, and as sumed all the functions of Parliament. He should not now discuss, in the most remote manner, the Catholic Question, but he must observe that the Catholic Parlia ment-4A Laiigh)—seut forth the most inflammatory speeches ; it told the people they were slaves. and spoke iii the most dictatotial tone. The two Parliaments could not exist ; either the Catholic or the legitimate Farb* mesa must cease : and, in conformity with his Majes ty's Speech, he felt that the question must be brought to, an issue. If they weir inclined, it would be easy for the Catholics to turn the tide the other way, and make the people contented instead of irritating them. If the Catholics came to that House, they 'must come as peti tioners, and he hoped their request would be attended to ; but before that could be the case, they must bear the olive branch in their hands. His Lordship observed, that he would not tiou'lle their Lordships further, and concluded by seconding the Address. Lord KING ruse to speak. Lord LAUDERDALE complained that the Address had not been read from the Chair. The LORD CHANCELLOR said he could not read it, be cause the Noble Mover did not read it at length. The Earl of LIVERPOOL said it wa► hii fault that the Noble LOrd did not read it. The LORD CHANCELLOR said, it was not the Noble Lord's fault so much as his. He had beeu anxious to Save his own lungs, but he would read it —The Noble and Learned Lord then read the At.ldress from the Woolsack. Lord KING said, he could not but agree with meek of the Address, since what had been done was cnly that which Noble Lords on his side of the House had al• ways been of opinion should be done; but much more remained to be done, and he would particularise only one thing, and that was, the Corn Laws; and, if neces• sary, the Noble Lords on the other side should have another jog in the course of the Session. As to Ireland s we could not dismiss from our minds that the Catholics of Ireland were struggling under all that misgovern• ment which was the disgrace "tithe times in which we lived. The only countries in Europe now, in which a difference was made by the Government on account of OA religious faith of its subjects were "Turkey and le r and indeed there %vas a great similarity in other points. it lien the_ Greeks pleaded to their Sultan to be treated a little better than dogs, he referred them to'; his divided Divan ; for it should be observed, that this absolute Sovereign was not so detpotic but that he al lowed himself to be bearded on one occasion by his own servants ; and, indeed, though a tolerable good sort of Governor, it might he doubted whether there were not some points in his character not answerable to our ideas of perfection; more particularly when a certain affair with his Sultana was recollected. In this divided Divan there was the Reis Effendi, a man with more genius than all the rest el the Divan, and who had done some good, and would do mote, If be wete not thwarted by his narrow-minded colleagues. It was intended at one time to seod this Minister out of the . way, into one of the distant provinces; but being wanted at home, he was retained. It was, however, to ,be hoped that be understood why he was kept. The nest person was the Officer at the head of the Police, the Kislar Aga, in whose department the Slaves were.' lie would treat the Greeks like the Blacks, and the Blacks like the Greeks; that is, he would treat them both in the worst -way be could. There was another Officer, who had formerly been promoted to an office, he believed, chiefly on account of his fine voice, though he believed it was Vox et prieterea If Fortune had sported with his imbecility in placing him above his merits, no doubt the Reis Effendi sported with him too. But above all, the great Aga of the Janissaries was a great enemy of the Greeks, though the Captain Paella was said to be in their favour. The head of the Eunuchs was the great defender of all ex isting abuses and the most consummate bigot of the whole Divan, though at one time he took up the cause of the Sultana; he afterwards raised a cry about the Greeks entering the Army, similar to our cry of No Popery, and in that affair he acted strenuously, without being h tayed by a single doubt or hesitation, though he had the most scrupulous conscience, which he main tained in the utmost activity whenever it did not inter fere with his owo interest. He and the Eisler Aga,' aided by the Dervises, the Ulemahs of all the rabble o r the Mosques, will continue to oppose the Greeks to the end of time. It was to be noted too, that in this divided Divan, they had a mover of one opinion and a seconder of another set of opinions, in order to keep up the bar ninny of discord—(Hear). The blessings of this divided Divan had been seen, and if it were wished to incur the same danger. in no long lime our Holy Friends would divide our Empire for us. The Marquis of LANSDOWN said, that it wis with much satisfaction he had lima the Noble Lord. who had moved die Address, in a strain which his Lordship was peculiarly happy of commanding,deliver sentiments which he was sure eloquence of a far inferior order than his (Lord Dudley and Ward's), would have pre vailed on their Lordships to assent to. In one part of the Royal Speech, allusion was made to a mea sure which, in point of policy, was as wise as it was beneficial' to this country. When a measure was re sorted to by his Majesty's Government, he was sure it was not his u ish to contemplate with:any other but an impartial and candid feeling; and the measure that' had now been done by them was one which be had long felt to be most necessary, and he was fully per suaded that the recognition of the States of South America had been done upon the fairest and most honourable principles. When he looked to that quar ter of the world which was the most sterile in point of commerce, but at the same time the most perfect in point of principle, he could not.withhold his meed of praise to his Majesty's Ministers for the wise and prudent step they had taken. Whatever might be his 'love for commerce, he was sure his Noble Friends would not, any more than himself, for the sake of aoy commercial advantage that might be acquired, dunk of recommending any measure that would in the least tend to a violation of principle, or interfere with the rights of other nations, for the purpoite only of promoting the pecuniary interests of our own. He was sure it , was from principle only, and not from say commercial advantages, that sueli a measure might offer, that his Majesty's Ministers had advised the recognition of the independence of the late Spanish Colonies of South, America.. He rejoiced also at this eircunistance, from the concession it made to the great political, or rather he should say natural axiom, that every people_ had a right to form their own Government. He rejoiced, he repeated, not because he thought this Government gave or meant to give any preference to any particular form of Government, either democratical, or monarchical, or aristocratical, but he rejoiced because libis recognition on the part of Great Britain acknow ledged the right of the people to establish their own Government, in opposition to the policy of that body of Sovereigns on the Continent, whose principles are diame.rically opposed to this. It afforded a distin guished exception to that system in which se many of those Continental Powers were so unhappily engaged, and in which he trusted they never would succeed. He did say, that the measure which his Majesty's Ministers, had accomplished, entitled them to the thanks of the country. This was the principal feature of his Majesty's Speech, and to which the Noble Lord who had moved the Address had referred. There was, however, another topic alluded to in the Speech from the Throne, and Which he (Lord Lansdown) considered deserving very great attention, but to which his Noble Friend had not in any manner addressed himself. Indeed, as yet he felt that it was not competent for him to say anything on t h e subject, for want of the necessary information ; he, hciwcyer, would hope that some explanation would be hereafter given to the House that would assist their Lordships'judgments in deciding upon the propriety or expediency of the measure. It was stated in the Speech, that the unprovoked aggression and extra,. vagant pretensions of the Burmese Government had ren dered hostile operations against that. State unavoidable, and that circumstances Connected with other parts of his Majesty's foreign dominions would render some aug mentation in his military establishment indispensable. l What the Burmese had done he knew not ; more than that which the Speech coaumunicated, it was not, per haps, competent upon him to know, until the proper information and documents had been made and laid `before the House. He had heard, however, that 15,000 men famed the complement to be added to the Indian army. It appeared to liim that the state of India, re quiring an increase of 15,000 men, was a circumstance that could not but excite considerable interest in the minds of their Lordships, especially when they re. fleeted that it was in a time of peace that this augmea. tation in ow army was called for. He thought that this was not a subject where suppression on the part of t his Majesty's Ministers ought to be observed in their communications to the House. He would not suppose that there was any wish on the part of the Ministers to keep back ally portion of the facts which had been made known to them respecting our Indian possessions, 'and he should,therefore,feel reluctant to say more, espe cially in-the absence of all-paper relating:up .the-eub ject, and of all allusion made to it by his wgesriezd who moved the Address, than that he trustedatverrin formation would be afforded to . their Lordshipessehibh the importance of the. quettion demanded. Hiving disposed of these points, lie now came - to one that in terested their Lordships most—he meant that part of the Speech which alluded to the state of Ireland, btit' more particularly to that part of which referred to the Association that had been formed to effect, as those of that body declare, by all legal means, their emancipa tion, but which the Speech described as having adoptedl proceedings irreconcileable with the spirit of the Con. ] stitution, and calculates', by exciting alarm, and by exasperating animosities, to endanger the peace of so- , ciety, and to retard the course of national improvement.; Their Lordships most undoubtedly felt great regret , ' that in - a time of peace and prosperity almost un known, when commerce was finding new ports for its merchandize; when trade and manufactures at home were in their branches extending themselves; when apiculture was reviving, and everything yes suming the aspect of permanent prosperity, and when in that particular part of the United Kingdom which these things were so materially benefitting—their Lordships, he repeated, must naturally feel deep re gret that still there should have occurred circum stances that should induce his Majesty's Ministers to adopt any rigorous measures, of the necessity of which their Lordships were not sufficiently informed. But should it be deemed proper by their Lordships comp port those measures when they shall be made known, he had only to exhoit their Lordships not to believe, that by merely removing any of the externals which affected that country, they would be removing the causes of them. This would be a delusive opii,ian ; there must be something more than outward shrew that affected the situation of such a body as the Catholics of Ireland—and circumstances arising from the condition of.five or six millions of people, placed, with regard to the Church, totally different— ( Hear, hear) —he would say, from what any similar people were ever placed in. He would, therefore, entreat their Lord ships not to conceive, that whatever measure they might adopt, they would be at all remedying the evils 'to which it was intended to be applied. Remove one symptom- as they would, another would come, and a war of legislation would arise. Upon - the question of the remedy to be proposed, he should form the• best opinion that he. could ; but he should-say, that what ever might be the object of the Association formed in Ireland, or whatever they might purpose, it was more safe that it should operate through knows and open ehanaels, than through secret ones. if it should be sought to screen from the public eye the moyeineltits.of this greatibody, if these communications between the mem berkot the-Catholic Association should be attempted to be carried on by means that were private and unseen, then indeed might the alarms of the timid be excited, and the fears of the weak justified, But those commu nications, and that systematic arrangement which had been alluded to, in order to be deprecated, were not at tended by any such fearful consequences, because they were open and avowed. He would rather' that public opinion should flow through open and known channels, than circulate in the dark labyrinths- of plots and the lurkieg avenues - of intrigues. It was not the outward and visible sign that their Lordships had'to dread, but the secret, half-hidden movements - of discontent. Opens ness of conduct declared an honesty of purpose. The freemasonry which-they had to fear was the freemasonry which was created by their Statute, which taught thim to recognise each other as fellow-sufferers in the same cause, brothers in the same expatriated decree,. and which taught them to evade their Lordshipelaws and assemble together in council to comment. on hardships they were enduring for conscience-sake; for what laws were there that could tftstrain men front adopting meat sines which were only intended by them to be - the means of attaining what they believed and knew to be their rights? Not measures, he trusted with his Noble Friend, for mischief, but for recognising that station in the Empire to which they sincerely felt• themselves ens' titled, although kolas too true that those 10111Wire$ hadC caused a degree of agitation which he:hoped:would now under all the circumstances, continue-to operate. Be their Lordships' measures what they might, it would be impossible to allay that irritation which existed until. some mode had been adopted commensurate with the demands of solarge a portion of the people as the um settled part of behind presented. He should'be prepare 4 to consider every measure that might be proposed 14 his Majesty's Government with. that disposition- to adopt ',Which the urgency of the , case requited, and - with this consideration that was due to. bis ewer judgment on a question so vitally important to the tranquillity - of the country, and so pregnant with political consequences. The Earl of LIVERPOOL thought that, at least, the first paragraph in die Royal Speech. would be fully echoed by the House: he believed that no difference of opinion could exist with- respect to the satisfactory con dition of the country. After all the difficulties which England had contended with successfully during the progress of the war, she found that difficulties scarcely less trying remained yet to be surmounted in a state of peace. The same qaestion which circumstances had ,brought into discussion frequently before, was now agi tated again, and. with redoubled violence:. Wet aiim bers of persons concurred in thinking that the country could never again return to a metallic currency,_ and yet. keep faith with the public creditor. The Hiniie could not but fully recollect these opinions.. con nected as they had been with the difficulties suss Wised by the country in its transition from a. war of twenty years, to a state of 'Cadre end absotuti penal In the midst of present. distress tend. difficulty * tioeenw men.; had bees called upon to reduce the burdens of the people—burdens . which indeed had preisetPlaeavilija, but which, nevertheless, at, that time, it had been ims possible to take off.- •But if the Houses of Parliament had displayed firmness iii the course of the great strugi gle which they had carried on. against France,. they .hewn no less in what thee had resolved on in ineetiert :1 the pressure consequent upon that struggle'stoncl ' Parliament had determined to attain tharwithout whi 1 the prosperity of the country never could have r upon a solid foundation—they had determined to hays .a sound metallic currency ; and they had accomplishes' this without violating a single pi evious engagement imet which they had entered, Th*lisk bad been a hercua lean one ; but we bad accomplished it,. and we. Irene aew enjoying our _reward- - -we bad founded a WWI prosperity for England greater than any other count,* had enjoyed, nay, greater than she herself„ at any antecedent period, had ever stood in. This, thesi being the internal state of the country, Governmend might fairly proceed to the agreeable task of removin those restrictions, which ; under lest pro sperous auspices. it would have been unsafe, perhaps, to meddle with With respect to the 'recognition of outh Ametican dependence, the Noble Marquis who had last spoken had expressed his entire approbation of that measure. The question, in fact, had been, not whether South Ame.. _rice should he open to the commerce of Great Britain, but whether she should be open to mankind at large? On a former occasion he had stated, when the South AmeriCan-besiness was to be discussed, thittlhe did not think that England, or any other coantry, had_a tight to set itself up in judgment between the mother country and the colonies. We bad no right to dispute the inde pendence; but, on the-other hand, we were not entitled to assert and maintain it. What he(thelioblel, rd) maintained -was,. that except as. far - as .wes necessary to her own safety, England had no right to interfere, or to set herself up in judgment between Spain and South America. We had acted with caution in this affair of South America, and our duty had been to do so. Spain was our ally, and had been so long ; and our treaty of 1808 had been a treaty to maintain her mile. Front time to time, in the commencement of the disputes, a e had offered our mediation to the Spanish Government but that mediation was rejected ; and the consequence was, that Spain lost' for ever count: ies which would, through that offered mediation, have adheted to ter for ' years to come, though certainly not in the former state ef bondage. Now, as to what' particular States were objects of England's recognition, there was one in which the power of Spain had been extinguished for several. years, in which not one Spanish soldier had been seen for a long period, which had resisted the mother coun try earliest, and possessed a sort of Government longest —he meant 'Buenos Ayres. There certainly vas no ge neral governmental' authorities, but there was one power of an incipient nature, and with that State relations had been established,chiefly through commercial agents and 01) commercial principles. The next was one which' was itself quite delivered from the Spanish power, and had such a Government, and was so circumstanced in: general poihts as to have been able to sustain relations of peace and amity per se—but then the power of Spain was still lingering in a neighbouring. State, Mexico ; and if it had succeeded against the latter, there was no pos sibility of foreseeing what effects the re-action would produce on the independence even of Colombia and this was the opinion of all persons then resident in those countries—this was the cruse of the delay in es tablishing relations with Colombia. As to Mexico, a person claimed imperial power over it, and left this country with a publicly known intention of establish ing that claim through means of a military counter re volution ; while his enterprize was undecided, the Bri tish Governmenecould do nothing in the way of di. plomatic arrangements with that State, and besides, there was no regularly formed Executive existing at the period; but since the capture and death of that person, and the subsequent organisation of a regular Government„arrangements had been made for the es tablishment of relations with it; so that the Noble Lords opposite may see that even on -their own principles, the British Cabinet could not have acrnowledged the independence of those States at air earlier period.--- With respect to the affairs of India, arid the increase contemplated. in the - Military establishment of the country, the.Nuble' MarquiLwbo had.last. spoken had alluded to certain reports* wfilch were abroad ; he (Lord Liverpool), however, begged' that Ndble Marquis to take nothing - more for grantedthan was declared in the speech from the Throne. . It was not by any fault or neglect on the part of thaEcecutive _Government that earlier information upon this subject had not been given to Parliament; papers would,shortly be produced, and for any farther explanation desired every possible dis position existed.to afford it.' It' remained now, there fore, only to trouble tJe House with a few words, and they . should, 'at. present, be but few, upon the state of 'lreland. Ile (the - Noble Lord) in considering that mat ter, which was adverted to in the Royal Speech, and would come undeetheconsideration of the House, could not treat it as wholly aeconnected with the general Ca tholic Question, but he certainly should treat it as a matter by na Means growing out of, or immediately connected with it. For the measure which was to be proposed, there was nothing about it which should pre vent its being discussed upon its own independent merits. The proceediags.iaken at this moment by the Catholic Association of Ireland, there could be no doubt amounted to an evasion of the provisionsof die Statute Book. They were Undertaken and carried on in that spirit which aaitl. determinateln. 'd Whatever law you make, our business into evade and to nullify it." The proceedings of the Cetholic Association at this moment were in decided hostility to the intentof the Convention Act, and it Was`for Parliament to declare if it would authorize the evasion of aitatute so important. There might be those who would ley generally, that they dis liked the effect. of the. iistrietive laws operating upon Ireland, and that they would do nothing to strengthen or to extend them; but whenever those persons looked at the conduct of the.party which called itself the Ca tholic Association—eavr it actually levying a duty, un authorized, upon the Catholic population of Ireland — would they say that the existence of such a body was consistent with the Constitution of this country, or that it was compatible with its peace? Re protested that he himself, if he stood before the House as the advocate of Catholic claims, the first Act which he would vote for should be the putting down of that convention, the Ca tholic Association;' because, if Catholic claims sere granted at all, they- ought to be granted upon their own 'merits, andnor to the demand - of such a body as that As aociation,acting in the way that that bod'ywas disposed - to act. The Speech from the Throne saidaltat in the general prosperity—the increasing prosperity of the country, Ireland was taking a large share. This statement was entirely founded.in fact; the effect of that fact Was ap parent in the cessation of those disturbances in many parts of that country, which some had- attributed to po meal and religious animosities , but whieln he had al . strays. nsaielr attributed to distress. He believed what had been stated by the Noble Seconder of the Addasss —that the wise measures of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, and especially the Constabulary Act, had done great good; bek he believed that the increasing pros perity of t he comutry bad done still more. if religious dissensions, and the political animosities arising out of them—if thesrtended to produce disturbance, what could be more mischievous than the measures. of the Catholic Association?. It seemed to him (the Noble Lord) that both she• safety and the prosperi t y of the country demanded that immediate measures should be taken against it. He should therefore sit down by giv ing notice, that on this day se'nnight, be should mov e for a renewal of the Committee for inquiring into the state of Ireland. . • The Earl of DOgOUGII MORE regretted to hear enytene taken which seethed to threaten furthet sures of coercion Ataipiteffeland, tiliefendea the