Star. — London, England, 1818-06-06 00:00:00

and they would see the acknowkdr i " en t Of t he mistake into which the Legislature t r i-:.r.d they had been betrayed by their liberality. I B; the 7th of Anne, cap. 5, it was enacted that all f ore igners taking certain oaths should be deemed Litt:nil-born subjects, they consenting to receive d e Sacrament of the Protestant Church. In I so ,bort a period as three years after, in the 10th dune, another Act was passed repealing the Act o f he 7th of Anne, the preamble of which recited G te tnischiefs and inconveniencies of the latter% It ass true (as had been • asserted by. the • Htinourable and Learned Gentleman) that the repealing Act was oct retrospective, nor was it to operate immediately on t he passing of the Bill. But why ? Because the 7th of Anne was an invitation to certain persons to come tc this country, who had immediately come in •con serinence, and taken the advantage of the Act.— Wear, hear.) —Did the Gentlemen opposite mean, to sir, that any thing like this was the case in the pre sent instance ? The Scotch Act was absolutely found cut for the purpose of making that use of it which had been made. From the period of passing the first ;hen Bill, 1793, down to the present, 1818, re would 2-k those Gentlemen if they ever heard of this Scotch Act ? liohodx would state that it was ever thought c.; until recently. It was almost obsolete. There was nothing, therefore, in the present case similar to that cited by the Honourable and - Learned Gentle :r.an in the reign or Qacen Anne. Why should the petition be referred zo a Committee ? The facts which were stated in it were not controverted. What would the Committee have to inquire into ? To the appoint ment of such a Committee he should, therefore, ob ject. As to the merit of the clause, that was a diffe rnt question, on which he had formed his opinion, T *‘iiir such opinion he would forbear from trou -1 'he House at that time, reserving himself (if he rind it at all necessary to address the House on il;o %iibyvt) for the time when that question should b:di,tinctly before them. '!r. IV. SMITH would speak merely to the last r ;i:it of the Honourable and Learned Gentleman's 'lice Honourable and Learned Gentleman asked why the Petition should be referred to a ommittee. his Honourable Friend moved its.re • -ease to a Committee for the purpose of having the t. ir..itiired into. He apprehended that the great ilyaineat against the injustice of the clause rested ca its et postfacto nature. There was no doubt that Pet:rioners had acquired the privilege held out to them by the Act. That privilege empowered them imp or. goods into this country at a lower duty :.:an in their prior character of Aliens. To deprive r.iera of this right appeared on the face of it to be a Fr i violation of justice, and an equally gross cession tae pririleges of that House in money ,matters. — ..:cll an Act could be justified only by necessity, and a Committee was the place to inquire into the extent c:thu nezestitv : If it could be proved that the 49 Tzrsons in que s tion were the greatest traitors in the Icirld. and that the rights they had gained were cal , dated to produce inconvenience sers serious, that it %mid be better to violate the privileges of that House, and the dictates of common justice, than to :hem to retain those rights, let it be so. But Committee was the only place in which the in tuiry could be car tied on. TA: CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER did . irst perceive that the introduction of the clause by the limns: of Lords was any infringement of the pri vileges of the House of Commons, with reference to Money mattes s. He wished the Honourable and Learned Gentleman would point out what were the Alien Duties which, in his opinion, gave to the clause that character. Right Sir SAMUEL RO3IILLY replie‘ that the Honourable Gentleman had imposed a singular task on him, and one which he had not' the means of eze- cating—to point out the particular duties he alluded to. It was notorious that it was a great object with foreign merchants in this country to obtain exemp. lion tram those duties. Would the Right Honourable Gentleman pledge himself that these were no Alien Daties in existence? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, is would not take upon himself positively to assert that thpre might not be Alien Duties. What he had slid was, that he was not aware of the existence of any. Mr. F. DOUGLAS wished to make one observa tion. It appeared, between his Hon. and Learned ::lend and the Right Honourable Gentleman, to be pr ilttly uncertain whether there were Alien Duties aOL In this uncertainty how could the House te:.clade against the Motion of his Right Honourable r , ;md for inquiry? Sir A. PIGGOTT observed, that the Right Hon. Geatleman would not undertake to affirm that such nings as Alien Duties existed. There were some Honourable Gentlemen near him (Sir A. Piggott) tha were perfectly ready to state that they did. Were public purpose only at issue this point ought to be ty inquiry ; how mt!ch more so when the of individuals •_: ere about to be operated upon? le, hear, hsar.)—Were there no Alien Duties in City of London? Would the Honourable and ‘3; ned Attorney-General deny that there were ? ..1d the Honourable and Learned Gentleman deny 1 that if an Aliea purchased land he could not If a natural barn subtect purchased land it iLis own. If an Alien ptachased land he was a trustee for the Kiag, and might be dispossessed time. Now, "' hen the sltuation of individuals, changing, and their property was subject f irlitire, 'vas it the House of Commons in vas stated thin this violation of right should witt:lat iticairy, and that by the same :" priYileo-es sr.auld be alaandoned, of which sa:l hitherto been tenacious even to pedantry— ^y hal wan hed and guarded with a vigilance ta their sense of their value? (hear, Gear.) - in o instances ottotesi by his Honour :, :11 Learned Friend of the jealousy evinced by ''• . "o el CorinnOnS of any interference on the ntl..er Ileum of Parliiunent with money .:e woull me.:r.lon a case Which occurred in an ' ct parsed by House of Lords, • relieve an Irish Catholic Officer front the of the Test Act. which arathed to hial is a:thong:: they did not attrcn to hi.r. is was rejected by the House of Corar.:Gr,,:, ~..e 7. 7 :tohttinat on their privileges. Were there no • ."t e tions than these. it would appear to hill '34lling that the Houcould • ' • 4 se entertain me cause us them. But what was the Bill ? He I le had trTer before seen a Bill purport. ing to repeal an Act of Piriiinte — ni, in which the Act, which it was intended to repeal had not been stated (hear, hear, hear.) He would ask the Honourable Gentlemen opposite, whether, in the whole of their Parliamentary experience, they had ever heard of such a thing ?—,(Hear, hear, hear.) Such had never been the case, even when the original object of a Bill was the repeal of an Act; hut the extraordinary pro- . . vision under the consideration of the House, was at tached to a Bill which had existed for twenty,-five years, without the occurrence of any inconvenience from the want of that provision. The other branch of the Legislator!, however, was in such a hurry, was so impatient, that it could no tonger tolerate the Act or Acts (for it knew not which) in question. It was so intolerant of that, of the nature of which it was iperant, that it could not pass the Bill with out adding to it this celebrated dowse. And what was this clatise? Did any man know what it was? It stated, " that any man naturalized, or who might claim to be naturalized (two very different proposi tions), since the 28th of April last," should be sub ject to •such and such disabilities. And why since the 28th of April last? He knew not. Why not since the 27th, or since the 21st, or since the lst?— What right had he, sitting there in utter ignorance of any ground for the proceeding, to consent to de prive any persons of propert7, to which they had as a claim as he had to his own ?—(hear, hear)— good right had he to visit another with a law de structive of his interest,while he failed not to take care of his own? The Attorney-General had cited several Alien Acts. He had alluded particularly to one passed in the reign of Queen Anne, and repealed three years afterwards. But though repealed in three years, it had been enjoyed for three years. It had been enjoyed until the Legislature thought fit on adequate grounds to repeal it. In the Acts respect ing Aliens settling in our Colonies, the Legislature acted with due deliberation. As to the number of persons concerned, of what importance was it to tell him that there were only forty-nine ? Were there but one, hit rights at ought to be sacredly respected.— The law to be abrogated had existed so long without inconvenience—the Constitution had not been endangered, no conspiracy had been proved against these individuals. Why then were they to be deprived of their rights? He utterly denied the assertion of the Honourable 'and Learned Gentleman, that the right stood on the Scotch Act of Parliament. Five Acts of the English Act of Parliament had given to the subscribers to the Bank of Scotland, as that Bank increased in capital, all the privileges to which the subscribers to the Bank, when it was originally insti tuted, with a capital of 100,0001. were intitled. Mr. CANNING said, that he rose to address him self solely to the last argument made use of by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman (Sir Samuel Romilly), not that the whole of his speech was not highly worthy of the consideration of the House, but be cause a decision on that point in one way or another, would entirely settle the question. It had been con tended by the Honourable and Learned Gentleman, that the agreeing to the amendment made, by the Lords in 'the Alien Bill, would be interfering with the Privileges of the House. On a .point Kt-distinctly established as was that of the Privileges of the House, he certainly wished to give such a vote as should not interfere with them ; and if he found that the amend ments of the Lords really interfered with these privi leges, that circumstance should govern his vote on the present question. As the opinion of the Speaker from the Chair would put an end to the whole de bate, he was anxious to hear that opinion. Mr. SPEAKER said—" As this question is now prat to me very unexpectedly, and I have not had time to direct my attention to the particular matter in issue, I must beg the House to favour me with their indulgence, while I state my general view of this subject (hear, hear.)—l take the, unquestionable rule of this House to have been, not to permit the other House of Parliament to impose any duties on the people; and not only this, but that they will prevent them from meddling •in any way with Bills that are generally called money Bills. As I recollect, there are duties which attach to aliens as traders ; and if that be so, it would seem that the clause offered by the Lords is to re-impose a penalty in the way of for feiture. In that way; I confess that th 3 clause does seem to me to affect that jealous regard which has been always entertained for the rights and privileges of this House. At the same time I mug state, that it is a very ordinary course for the other "louse to on Bills for naturalization. Ido not, however, mean to state that, to counterbalAce the argument on the other side ; but I should say, that but for that difficulty of originating naturalization Bills in the Lords, this clause would fall within the general rule, and would therefore be liable to objection. Mr. C. W. WYNNE considered that the circum stance of Naturalization Bills originating in the House of Lords, did not affect the decision of the present question. A Naturalization Bill enabled a person to acquire property in this country, but by the present clause persons who had acquired property under the existing law in this country, would be de• prived of that property. A case had been mentioned, of land in Essex pirchased bran Alien, having been claimed by the Crown. It seemed clear, that the clause was of such a nature as fell within the descrip tion of an interference with the privileges of the House. Lord CASTLEREAGH said, on considering the opinion which had been pronounced by the Chair, and the information given by the Honourable Mem ber who spoke last, he felt there was but one course for him to pursue, namely, not to press the amend ments introduced into the Bill by the Lords— (hear). Mr. BROUGHAM said, nothing could be more gratifying to the House, than to bear the Noble Lord sate so c aididly his sentiments on this subject. Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH wished to suggest to his Right Honourable Friend (Mr. Tierney) to withdraw his motion. Mr. TIERNEY then begged leave to withdraw ali n...aion, and the motion was withdrawn. Lord CASTLEREAGH moved the Order of the Day for taking int) consideration the amendments ma is by the Lords in the Alien Bill. Sir 3 . 4%.".AUEL RONIILIN believed, that in all eases when the House of Lords had interfered with cnoacy matters, the invariable practice of the House was, to throw out the Bill, and to bring in another lie spoke with great deference on the subject. Here the Honourable and Learned Gentleman allud ed to various precedents, in which the Houle rejected whole Sills on itectiiiii itilentithents made in them by the Lords. . . Mr. C: W: hid some doubt how fir a Bill, Which had already passed the House, and irbich was in no respects a Money Bill, but for the amendment introduced by the Lords, which brought it Within that description, ought to be rejected. Mr. B. BATHURST contended, that a regard to their privileges called on than to do nothing more than reject the amendments of the Lords. Mr. BROUGHAM said, as this was a difficult matter, it would be advisable to appoint a Committee to search for precedents. Lord CASTLEREAGH opposed the appointment of such a Committee. Sir J. MACKINTOSH conceived that they were bound to adhere to the established law and usage of Parliament. But were there no precedents directly applicable to the present case, he should on the ground of general reason, think there were stronger grounds for rejecting the present Bill than one which came within the description of a money Bill. It appeared to him that this was a much more dangerous en croachrnent on their privileges. If a design rcally were entertained by the other House to infringe on their privileges, what would be the course they would pursue ? Why, surely, by the insertion of grants of money in a place where it would not be suspected. He understood there was a case in point in 1813. A Militia Bill was sent up to the Lords, where it un derwent several amendments, and among others an entire clause was inserted, which was considered a money clause by the House, and the Bill was rejected. After a few words from Mr. C. W. W] NN and Mr. B. BATHCRST, the Athendments of the Lords were taken into consideration, and rejected. Lord CASTLEREAGH then moved a Committee to draw up reasons, to be offered to the Lords in a conference for their disagreeing with the Amend ments made by them in the Alien Bill. The Committee was named, and ordered to meet forthwith in the Speaker's Chamber. The Report of the Committee was shortly after wards presented, and certain Members were ap p ointed to carry on the conf,:rence with the Lords. MISREPRESENTATION. Mr. PROTHEROE complained of the way in which lists of the majority and minority had been printed, in some of the Papers, on the division on the late mo tion of Mr. Brougham, for an Address to the Crown. The majority, of which he was one, were represented as the persons who had voted against any inquiry into the abuses in Charitable Institutions for the Edu cation of the Poor. This was a malicious misrepre sentation, as was evident from the nature of the mo tion. 'He could assure the Honourable and Learned Gentleman (Mr. Brougham) that he was as ardently desirous of seeing a full inquiry take place into those abuses as any man; and the reason why he voted against his motion was, that he thought it likely to impede or injure the great object Ile had in view.— , He did not mean to take any further notice of the BROUGHAM expressed much satisfaction at the humanity and candour of he Honourable Gen tleman, in not having made any motion on the sub ject. He must at the same time confirm the Ho nourable Member's statement. The majority had not voted against inquiry ; but what he conceived to have given rice to the mistake was, that althouvli the mo tion was for an Address; to inquire into die state of Education, the debate was chiefly upon the subject of inquiry into all the Charities ; and it was understood, that the same majority would have voted against his second motion for inquiry into all Charities, if he had , pressed it to a division. it lie could have hoped that a majority would have supported that motion, be would have divided the 'louse. The motives for op posing his motions, he knew, were prudential, *or, hear), and he hoped the whole House would be dis posed to go along with him next Session. Lie • 2 COM: eilru ;arson o-ld. (elate, votild House !itr.v the Cc Spiry Tu. !Inc the 1 , ileac Leant Alien i that Sir How en Lin catini to. I foteig lion 11 Gentl Dole Th • he n 7 tat aU tr tau Si Geal a tainl c Hen n, tla h. 2 7J ze: rg. •e e a I. a .) ( IV • IN ri .1 , u . • Q. t i. I St It (31 ,'h of .• b ssa• .11 1 lc' • atu iooa LAWS AMENDED BILL. Lord CASTLEREAGII moved, that the Amend• meats of the Lords to the Poor Laws Amended be read a second time this day six months. After some observations fro . ni Mr. C. W. Wyxs, and Mr. HUSKISSON, the motion was agreed to. Mr. RROUGHANI presented the Report of the Committee on the Education of the Poor, which was ordered to Li printed. cor'vato/IT. Mr. C.W.WYNN presented the Report of the Copy right Committee, which he moved should be printed. NIT.. J. H. SNIYTH, of idge, wishing to oh- 1 serve that in the Committee the first Resolution was carried by a majority of only one, and the last was only carried by the casting vote of the Chairman. Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH said, as one of the Committee, he woald willingly bear testimony. that the Honourable Nlember for Cambridge was not in the least remiss the discharge of the duty which he considered himself to owe to his constituents, by icsisting the Resolutions. The Honourable Gentle man nrght have, whenever he pleased, the benefit of his testimony to this point. It was true the Reso lutions in the Committee were only carried by a ma jority of six to five, but of the minority of five, four were the Representatives for Oxford and Cambridge. But with respect to the numbers of the majority, the Resolutions were tezhnically as much the Resolutions of the Committee, as if that Committee had even been unanimous ; and the House would, in deciding on them, try them by a very differeht test from that of the votes in the Committee. The House in their decision would be solely governed by the reasonable ness of the Resolutions. Mr. PEEL and Lord PALMERSTON, Members for Oxford and Cambridge, rose at the same time, which excited a laugh in the House ;—the former having given way, Lord PALMERSTON considered this attempt to insinuate that he was unduly influenced, as unworthy of any serious notice, and he should only treat it with contemptuous silence. He repeated the statement as to the smallness of the majority. Mr. PEEL said, notwithstanding the laugh, by which it was intended to make the opponents of this Report the subject of ridicule, he should not be de terred from stating that it came forward with few claims to favour ; and he trusted the House would entertain a very different opinion on the subject from that of this small majority. Mr. WYNW thought it rather an unusual course to bring before the House the state of divisions on Select Committees. If it were alleged that some of ReS.oltitiOns in the dominittee been carried Only by the, eastioj have hen also said, that the HA" :he copies riven td Ste had been one cpponen•, if a person expretsini be considered an cppcinent. Mr. V. FITZGERALD thonght country should know that those had been deemed-most important, by a bare majority: Sir JAMES MACKINTOSh speech he had made no indnuations, plain statement ; with any one rise what he had said as an ii ehter into ro discussion: After a filv vmrds front Mr; was ordered to be printed. AMERICAN totA, Mr. W. SMITH wished to. al Chancellor of the Exchequer, the national faith was concerned , ment of the American Loyalists. Chancellor of the Exchequer should hereafter be authorized t. tion to Parliament in their behalf for ionse of thin individuals, kept in a state of suspense, if they not only of their claims, but of exi out were they with _disappointed three or four suicides had taken • through the desperation which . spirit. The sum which would to them was not very great *, always differed from these indi , cal views, he thought they had public faith. The CHANCELLOR of acknowleiged the merits of these i. he could nut hold out any propeci be able to propose any new steps Sir M. W. RIDLEY, in boll who was indisposed, postponed ing Mr. Mailison's Mr. PR OTHEIIO E rose to House respecting TurndikeTrw every year there had been appl to increase the tolls of Tumpilea were represented to be in a state He did not know how many . made in this Session, but in the sions there had been 91 such ar of these trusts throughout En; .at seven millions. There were ment of trusts of this nature, w) would increase the tolls, so tremelr onerous. His object Iva , of the House to this subject—;" that at present nothing could ded by moving for returns Trusts in England, of the len; to each Trust, tlo ineoine, the computed value of it, thei. of interest. Mr. D. GILBERT übervecl, nit be consistently agreed to, the motion was laudable, and Meyer would in the nest Sessii under consideration. For what sion of the city for which the had heretofore been a represem Honourable Member would other place. After a few remarks from motion was withdr;iwn. Mr. WILBERFORCE brow the Committee on the subjecte' was ordered to be printed. liiscELLAxies. Mr. IT. SHAW alkalised leave to bring up the 'Report cf }M oines of Evidence of the committee on East India Docks, svld:h was accordingly brought up, and ordered to be printed. The Lords Amendments to the §lave Trade Offences Din were rejected, at the suggestion of Th.: SNEAKER. The .Insen,l -ments authorizing the Crown to Fake bonds from iudividads, in cur tain cases in which slaves were allowed to betransported front the West Ir.dia Islands to the Continent of South America. A Committee was appointed to draw up reasons to be corn. municated to the Lords for this rejection. The CHAN:IO,I.OR of the EXCHEQUER reported from the Committee appointed to draw up a statement of the reasons which induced the House to differ from the amendments introduced by the Lords into the Slave Trade Amendment Bill, and the Right Honourable Gentleman was authorized to coin. munirate those reasons in a conference with the Lords. Mr. D. GILBERT obtained leave and brought in a Bill for the more effectual Preservation of Wrecks in England, which was read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time this day sennight, and to be printed. Mr. RENNET presented a Petition from Thomas Rose, of New South Wales, complaining of haying been deprived of his license as a spirit-vender by Governor Macanarrie, without jus tifiable cause.—lle also presented Petitions from three indivi• duals, complaining of the infliction of corpora pur.i.hment on them contrary to law.—They were ordered to lie on the üble. On the Motion of Sir M. W. RIDLEY, the Returns before the House, with regard to Dean Forest, were ordered to be printed.—. Adjourned till to-morrow. Yesterday, in the Consistory Court, the Counsel for Mr. SULLIVAN were heard in reply, and insisted at great length that sufficient grounds had been Laid for the nullity of the marriage between Mn SuLtr vaN, jun. and Miss OLDACBS. The Court will pro bably give judgment next week. Box tyc.—The mate► for 50 guineas, between George Sellers, a descendant of the formidable pugilist of the same name in Liioughton's days, and I:an. Ford, a relation of the pugilist who has distinguished himself in the London ring, was decided on Thursday in Meard's :•icadow, between Ripley and Cobham on the Forest. The men had been bunted from three different places before they could have the sght out, and in. one place they bad fought three minds, when they were disturbed. A braver match is net on re,o:d. for the hammering which each alter nately susta:aedv.rs terrific, for avant of science to avoid the bits by either parrying rr ore: king ground. Trientl-trre mares were taught, and every one of then was gallantly maintained. The stst lasted *even minutes, which was occupied in hitting; but Ford was floored by a hit in t►e wind. mark, which he did not rcz-wer wail the fifth round. and he was severely marked. In the Sfth round he made play, and planted a heavy right-handed hit upon his adversary. ribs, which loosened two of them, and doublet: him Ford led until the kith round, when there between them. The 16th round was a I t WAS giVe and take, ar.d it wai here hitter. Ford dropped hi: , adversary by the middle of the nose frogs which co followed. Th e New ;educed the f.eht fought •he other gx rends nttguiW with half power, end he was at lengths that be seas unable to stand. B.ith the with their contused flesh. =4 the word come tiding to lier.l.—ltti; Lett lasted 1 -•.-- • . ' . • '45,.. .., . ( tee On ihii Alia ha stin g 'viol.; it should • f Rehßitloll ilkir!t-tini • I win tarried with only resins a dotibt might '•4 z. ant, h ad it , i t qso h a P l d r l Per that b i t o e ui ne w an h iii i i c t li 1 ;14 said, that in his ' 4 ;dons, he had made A who could characte- : 1 insinuation, he could /t GO :sl.v, the Repot •, I j Wars: it i ask a question of the I or: a subject in which d; he meant the treat- • i ists. He wished the • to state whether he to make any proposi- ) I t 1 alf ? It had been bat& i •• who had been long I hey had been deprived, I A rexistence, for so worn 1, . ted expeCtations, that li place amongst them. 1 . arises from a broken I ruffice to do Listice and though be had lividuals in their politi- - f I d a strong claiM on the I A I the EXCHEQUER !se individuals; but said , Kpects that he should • cps in their behalf. half of Sir F. Burdett, h.l the motion respect' 1 • r.s. submit a motion to the i usts. He ol”erved, that )licr•tlons to Farliament kes, the trusts of which , tate of bankruptcy.-- applications hid ' bet% the three previous Ses- applications. The debts ngland were computed abuses in the manages . which, if not remedied, •as to make there ex- .1 vas to call the attention ' I i -though he was aware be done. He cosclu- from all the Turnpik.... : l igsh of roads belonging the statute labour, and [wit- debt, and the rate I I I :1, that this motion could although the eject of i ad he hope,' the lien. .sNion bring the que,tica . 1 , never might be the dc c i- le Honourable Member sentative, he hoped the I be returned fur some . (;• Sir M. We RIDLEY, the 1 roughs up the Repot t of k . tof General Boy .1, 'All;cli i I • iIIIEL . . • to bring up the 'Report cf . }M- x. on East India Dicks, tvIel.:11 .• mimed to be printed. ic §lave Trade Offence., Bill Th.: SNEAKER. The Ausen , l- ake bonds from iadividmds, in snowed to betransported front stinent of South America. draw up reasons to be con. jection. I ' e EXCHEQUER report e d i ) draw up a statement of the to differ from the amendments 't Slave Trade Amendment Bill, i ernan was authorized to con. rence with the Lords. I I rave and brought in a Bin for I Wrecks in England, whick • . him up. ln'this situation fft there wasting a perfect eye marter-piece of m ar h nod. seen who was the heaviest bye heavy Cheerer, hit on copious effusions of claret r,ht to a certainty. Seller r. but nature had left him so reduced by loss of blond, the r features were leveled ord " 240.1gh !" was a web ed fifty-two minutes. ■