Star. — London, England, 1815-06-09 00:00:00

V i ' , . the Catholics t;o:tnjoy Meet of the acetify franc*. His own opinion was, that in a final settlement Via the Catholics (the pr acticability of which he doubted) every thing may be given them but the Parliament, the State, and the Chunahis and he conceived it may be done without their suffering any.thiug in,thtir po litical.or even in their civil capacities. But from the Noble Lord's view of the subject, and in the absence of necessary securities, he could not think the going into a Committee was a fit wteasure for their Lord ships to adopt.. He quoted the resolutions of the Catholic Prelates on tte accession of the late Bill on the subject, io support of what he advanced. and he therefore thought that until the Catholic Prelates should change their opinions, all such securities as had been propoced must be illusory. Referring to what the Nol;le Ll.rd had said on the topic of the Union, he justified the conduct of the Government on that occasion ; averred that no provision had been mide ::s to the removal, of the Catholic disquarfica ti. n$ ; but simply an assurance given dust their claims &mold be tally and candidly discussed in an Imperial Patliament, whch it was amply on record. h.d been most fully and ably, as well as repeatedly Coe, contending that the Act of 1793 contained a good and favourable settlement for the Catholics, and that the Union was a most advantageous measure for Itelond. The Noble Eall concluded by expressing his dimwit from the motion. L. id • DE PUNSTANVILLE spoke shortly against the motion. Lord GRENVIL LE observed, his sentiments on th's elaat question were ton well known to render it necessary for him to trouble their Lordships at any length He approved of what fell from his Noble Friend as to 1.4 provosiiion having no connection with the Resolutions alluded to ; and with him, he distinctly disclaimed every sort of influence derivable from a principle of external dictation. Nothing, therefore, should induce him to vote for the Resolu tions ,as they now stood ; but it he voted for the question, it should only be because he believed that the subject deserved the maturest deliberation, There never was a law framed with more liberality than that of 1703 ; but without wishing to depreciate that law, he must say that aircurostantes had since materially altered its relations. Could it be consistent that the Roman Catholics of Ireland and those of England should stand in a different situation respecting quali fications for civil and military offices ? It must be a subject of perpetual disquietude ; and therefore it became itoperi4 - osly necessary to enter into a delibe rate investigation of the question. 'rile consideration cf the securities was of the utmost consequence, and whenever it might came pn, he shorAJ meet it with a mind perfectly unprejudiced. It was rot a point for consideration thi, day ; but he sliculd be glad to find that the time .for it was near at hand. More than this it .vas n.-t necessary for him to say ; but he ea. treated their Ler/blips to lay out if their minds all prejudice that iniAht lAm:flee them from that which Lad been improperly. done (his Lordship aUuded to the late Resolutions of the Catholics), and only consottr whether the great body of the Catholic in babitdoits of the empire could be rendered more.trees more happy, and more contented with the Constitu tion, whose blessings they might thus. more,Jully en joy. As long as they are protected by the Constitu tion, it would be their duty to rest satisfied with what the llw should do fur them; and if he could believe that four or five millions of people. were determined not to be satisfied under the results cf legislative wisdom, he should still say to their Lordships, do your duty ; at.d in discharging that, you lave every chins to dig gratitude of your country. On these grounds, and on these only, be gave his support to the alotioll. The Earl of LIVERPOOL felt it not necessary to eater into any discussion of the subject at this time, conceiving that another opportunity would be far more appropriate. But he would ask whether any benefit could arise from acceding to the motion of the Noble Lord, of entering immediately into the consideration of the question ? He did not think it possible that the House could go into its considera tion with any satisfaction at this time. This was not, in his opinion, a question of inquiry. We knew all the advantages and disadvantages of the system ; and no person could say that the House was not fully ap prised of it in all its bearings. It would sound a considerable al irm in the country, it now considered; and he was not inclined to create an evil without !claiming what would be the remedy for it. The /fable Lord who had delivered his opinion in 1801, had said, th an his view of the question was, that he thought it entirely open to the consideration of Par- DaMent Whether the Pnion took place or not. If the inquiry should not end in the way the Noble Lord wis:!eds it would create disappointment; and he would sai., that •he conceived the proper course of psoceeding would be to see the nature and extent of the Avil that was wished to be removed, and also the stigma .and extent . of the remedy. The measilte iti volie3 une of the ! greatest. cousautinnal. questions that could possibly he agitated. The Noble -Lori ailmit;edthat the H.•nse ought to: protect Protest ,aiktisza ; and he would therefore ask, whether it was al* Cite/012i to inquire whether or_ tic; we should have a Protestant Parliament ? The opinion veLich he bad long since forasni ott this subject liad.undagone no alteration ; and he would ask, whether in a Goveitt- MOM What the CluVin acts: upon the •responsibility of Ministers,. it was Possible for the Crown to main., tarn that thseernment me; without the whole of the establishments being Continued as they now exist ? He only said tbus much to call to their Lordships' minds. wtiat he considered to be the true state of the ewes! tion, as it was one which required the fullest exercise' of the discretion of the House. Respecting the in, troduction of securities, all he should say was, that upon the best view he had taken of the subject, he could never believe that any Committee could execute their purpoie. From the very nature of the case, And tin state of the Catholic Church, there never etiold.be such securities adopted as would be satistac timio either party. It was not the question, wite tiriaitKe House should new-model the Catholic opt. niter but'ilietlier the boon demanded by the Catho lies eould be acceded to ? :tad he was firmly con- Vincih . that mak! it as grateful as possible it would be ' iscO, 4nJ fail in its object. on the wbote, t;lltimt • e, lie, c. uld ' see no advan;age ‘yha te v er i n t $ l OB to kit Piaig4i!teo whit: li the 1 /045 Lord it'd kr M pld. . i •ELVILLE . • . • , ' said he should give hi; vote against going into the. Co*amino. He war one of t uue who, on a former day, had voted fora Corn tnittee on the Petition, because he thought something satisfactory fright molt from it ; but he had been disappointed. Yet he was not without some _san guine hope that the time might come when both. Houses of Parliament, as well as the Catholics, might meet in opinion, but the present WAS not the time for inquiry. The propossitot going into the Committee was d6ubdessly to found some legislative measure upon it'; but be should not agree for one to go the length proposed by the Noble Lord. We have (said his Lordship) the opinions of the great body of time Catholic Prelates, and we find that these have not changed, and that therefore they would not be satis fied with any thing less than complete emancipation. 'Thus the Committee now would be of no benefit whatever ; as it was impossible at present to found , any legislative measure upon it. Yet if the Noble LAT& would come • forward with any proposition of the nature alluded to neat Session, he saw no reason • to withhold his support from it. The Duke (*SUSSEX, for the same reason as , he had urged before, said° he would vote for the Com- minty. Lord MULGRAVE was of opinion that the most. reasonable of the Catholics would be satisfied with what the Committee gotta resolve upon; but it might not be possible to satisfy those who were unreason able. At all events this was a question which it was impossible to leave in its present state. We had given large concessions to the Catholics, who were most incapable of judging of the benefits, while those who were able to appreciate them, and to influence the minds of the ignorant, were excluded from the privi leges. He could not brine his mind to look on dr question as one pregnant with danger, or as one which was to determine whether we were to have a Catholic or a Protestant Parliament. On these grounds he should vote for the question. The Earl'ef HA it ROWBY thought it impossible for things to iemain on the present footing, but if he could foresee any beneficial consequences from going into Committee,. he should certainly vote for it. The late period of the Session, however, was a material objection with him against it ; and. if he were a Ca- tholic, he would rather that the question should be taken up at any other period than the present. Lord BORINGDON said a few words expressive of his belie, that the question might be brought to decision in the next Session. The Earl of DONOUGHMORE then 'proposed, %with a view to meet the wishes of the House, to alter his motion, and instead of the words immediately proceed," dtc. to substitute, in the next Session of Parliament." The Earl of WESTMORLAND declined pledg ,ins himself to any opinion for the future by the vote for the question. Lord RE U ESD A LE lilt that circunistances might alter extremely between the present time and that now proposed for taking the subject into' cen...ideration.— He couldrt think that any thing satisfactory could be /Acres.% on this Subject ; and whenever it alight be brought forward, the Hcitse ought to consider the interest of the Protestant as well 46 the Catholic peo ple. By the Constitution of the country as it now stands,, the Government is essentially Protestant k and it must be administered by Protestants. It could nut 'by any possibility be administered by Catholics.— However small die number might be, yet if any por tion of Catholics were Membei a of Parliament, they might have the most serious influence on the pro ceedings of the State. • He never could consent that the Government of this Protestant country should be partaken of by Roman Catholic Ministers. The mo tion now offered to the House, could have no-refer ence to the propositions of the Act of 1793 , and in short it could have no other object than the admission of Roman Catholics into all places of rank in the State. He therefore should not give his assent to the' motion even as it was now proposed to be worded. The motion.as last proposed was then put, and a division took place, when the numbers were, Contents 3l—Proxies 29-60.—Not Contents 44—Proxies 42-86. Majority against the Motion 26.—Adjourned. . HOUSE OP COMMONS. Mr. PETER MOORE presented an Account of 00'o-end and Linseed imported into Great Britain within the last three years. The Richmond Asylum Bill was read a second time, and oo dered to be committed to-morrow. The Irish Prosecutions Bill was read a third time and poised. Mr. ABERCROMBIE moved that there be laid before the House in Account of the number of Causes heard and deter mined by the Master of the Rolls in Ireland, front this Ist Ja nuary, 1806, to the latest period. Agreed to. 'f he Reports of the Irish Ship Letter, the hish Excise Licence, and the Paper Hanging Bills, were received, and the Bills or dered to be read a third time on Monday. Sir J. HEWN" f moved for a detailed account of the farness in law proceedings in Ireland for 41114,5 ed the particulars of the law charges of the second' Sack's of Excise In Ireland, for the last four years.—Ordered. The Report of the Irish Malt Bill was received, and the Bill ordered to be read a third time to-morrow and engrossed. '1 he House went into a Conunittee on the Irish Tobacco Acts, and tire Report was ordered to be received to morrow. AIENWCITY IN Tilt SIXTICOPOLIS- , • *^. ' Mr. ROSE rose to call tli attention of the House I to the state of the mendicity in this metropolis. Gi eat pains had been taken to ascertain its amount, and the labours ut Mr. Martin on that subject had fur. wished most of the intyrmation which it was his in tendon to produce. From the researches and state alent of that Gentleman. it appeared, that 1.1,28 S prrsans obtained their living by begging in this me uoprlit. Of theie 6000 were adults, and 9288 chil dren. home mecllanics who g4ined 40s. a-week sent their wives and children to beg in the streets. Upon the whole, they obtained great sums of money. He should think it a very low rate to calculate their gains at 3s. a.day. 'fhey lqade much more, but supposing they only got 3s. a-day, the sum obtained by the adults amounted to .4€3116,40() a-year. Ihe Inconvenience which they occasioned CC) the public was notorious. Having no regolar means of subsistence, if they failed at anytime to procure usual gains, they substituted other ways still mote depraved. But even it they cool)t contrive to subsi..t, .iF was clear that thatr:cl4l,4seq, cionitemni:d to Ow• swine occupation, were brOught up in habits of vice and immorality... Tlniy never sent them to the flee sehohla for inutile lion, fen they empfoyed them at their itistrqtnents— . and their absence would diminish their receipts. He 1 1144 commended the establishment of free 'schools. which had proved Itiihly beoeficial. .In • sqiiie in stance* children taught at those schools had even re furmzd 'their parents. He then described die method .41 • • "•";- ' • . . Wilted - oh Mr. Martin's plan 40 teliett tM preo-iel Benevolent persons were supplied by ,bists with tickets,' which they gave to beggar:instead of money. The mendicants then carried those tickets to •Mr. Martin. who took the trouble of inquiring into their real situa tion, and then applied what sort of relief he thought proper. There were other establishments for the as sistahce of the peon The Stranger's Friend in par ticular' :was admirably constituted. Its mene.ers went about town to inform themselves respecting the state : of various paupers, whom modesty prevented from, begging publicly, and applied relief in cases where it was really wanted. Io the Refuge for the Destitute, persons were received whose circumstances entitled them to assistante and consideration. The Irish Be nevolent Society was established chiefly to relieve the poor Irish, and send them back to their country, and . had been attendee with considerable effect. Notwith standing all these institutions, many evils remained to be removed. He meant to propose that a Corn mittce be appointed to consider the state of mendicit y in this metropolis and its immediate neighbourhood. The first thing the Committee should do, would he to ascertain the facts to which he had alluded, and the next to consider what Meaus could be adopted to remedy those evils. Where so many great men had failed, it would be extreme) , presumptuous in him to make any proposal on the subject. But he thought, that it would not be impossible to provide for the Mg) . paupers (out of the 13,286) w::0 had parochial establishments in the metropolis. It woull then be necessary to consider what was to be done with those from Scotland and Ireland. The former were few in number, and he would suggest that they should be sent back to their country, which would provide for•them and disperse them through their different parishes. The Irish would create more difficulty, as they were more numerous, and in Ireland there were no poor's rates. It might be advisable to establish an asylum here. The sailors, who were the mist importunate beggars in the streets, should be made to live upon their pensions: He concluded by moving, , 1 That a Committee be appointed to consider the state of Mendicity in this metropolis and 'tie imme diate neighbourhood." , Mr. HAMMERSLEY thought that an establish. ment on the same plan as the House of Industry 'in Dublin might be serviceable in this country. as it would give an opportunity at once to refer all mendi cants to a certain place. Sir M. W. RIDLEY approved of Mr. Martin's plan. Of the tickets given to paupers, four out of five were never brought to the office, as the mendi cants dreaded the inquiries which would, be maste. If that institution were more known and further ex tended, he thought it would materially tend to check and lessen the number of beggars. He alluded to the soldiers who pretended to have been blinded by the opthalmia in Egypt, and who exposed tbetneelses in a disgusting manner in the streets. Mr. PEEL was doubtful whether it would be politic to extend an establishment like the House of Industry in Dublin to this country. It cost 1150,000 a-year, and relief was given to every person that ap plied, because there were no poors' rates ; but it he was to judge of its efficacy from the state of mendi. city in Dublin, his opinion would be far from favour. able,' as there WAS uo city in which mendicity pre veiled to such a degree as in the Irish capital. Sir JOHN NEWPORT 'preferred che plan of work-houses as those in existence at Cork, and other places, in which a previous examination took place before admitting paupers. To extend an establish ment in which no inquiry was allowed, would merely tend to extend beggary. Mr. LOCKHART thought that if mendicants• were prevented from begging, many of them would resort to more dangerous practices : they would spread into the country, would avoid well-regulated towns, and we should hear of their devastations in places where the police was less active or well conducted. He doubted whether all charitable institutions had not a tendency to create the evil which they were in tended to relieve. After a few words from Mr. Rose, Mr. LOCKHART, Sir J. SillitlollT, Alderman ATKINs, Sir C. Moats, and the CHAN:SLUM of the Exerts:our:it, the motion was agreed to, and•the Committee appointed. - MAST= 07 Tilt BOMA lx Mr. PEEL 'brought in a Bill to augment the sa lary of the Master of the Rolls in Ireland. Read a first time, and ordered for a second reading on 'Tues day next. - Serjeant ONS LOW hoped the Right Hon. Gentle man would produce an account of the business trans acted by the Master of the Rolls before he pressed the second reading of this Bill. Mr. PEEL alluded to the motion made by Mr. Abercrombie in the easily part of the evening on that subject, and moved for a few additional ACCollati.— Agierd to. • • BATUMI:I IST THIS • MAME& Mr. BARCLAY presented two Petitions apinst the Thames Bathing Bill ;. the one from the Water men that ply upon the Thames, and the other from the Inhabitants and Householders on the Banks of the River. He thought that something should` he done to prevent the indecencies which were now wit nessed, and which otherwiie would extend to igreatei• degree. Mr. .M. A. TAYLOR had lived for twenty-seven years on the banks of the Thames, and had never per ceived any. acts of indecency. Some time he had not seen six persons bathing in the course of mrinths. Were we worse than our ancestors f As a Magis trate, he did not recollect that any particular acts of indecency had come under his knowledge. He' WiS bred at Westminster, and so far tr • b ire hrohi bited grom bathing, he had often been risprvved for not learning to swiss. He considered t 6 Bill in exceedingly just one. Mr. HARVEY occupied a house near the Thames, and unless some means were suggested fmr remedy., ing the Bros, exhibitions which were cow made every hour, he must be under the necessity of removing. . Mr. HORNER wished to knot from the h.m.• Gentleman (Mr. Barclay) 'Hie could name a day for hearing the Wa:termen by counsel Tile ?cations were then brought up 41d read—. that from the water men complained that the exposing of naked bodies to . public v ew, was 11111110 to ilhor occupation. :fles CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER asked Mr. W. Wynne across the tame, n. would (*int to postponing the Committee on the Bill? Mr. W. WYNNE thought the hen of the leaflet • •si Y ~......~ .. , s M was a saccisa;a-Frotarr. i or pssissis . r." , .... 15 - forivara .'.; Hoose laving then resolved itself, soma Commitee, nn the siii,• . Mr. HARVEY proposed a clause, giving gogis tra.tes power to affix notice to prevent pawns from bathing in certain places. This to be done only ii. parts where the existence of a nuisance had been p re . viously proved by oath. The notice once put up, alt persons bathing in such places to be taken up and fined, for the first offence not less than Ss. and not more than 10s. and for the second 20s. On this clause the House divided—For the clause, 28; against it, S 6 : majority agents( the clause, 28. The atport was then received, ARti the Bill ordered to be read a third time to-morrow and engrossed. TAX ON NEWSPAPERS. The Report of the Committee of Ways and Men. having been brought up and 'belles° lutionsmrd, Sir JOHN NEWPORT objected to the propose'. addition of a halfpenny to stamps for newspper s , a. this time, when it was so necess4ry the publi c souk have abundant information on the state of public al. fairs s he therefore rnnved as an arnendrnent to the re solution for raising the price of Newspaper Stamps to four pence, that it should remain as it before stood. at the rate of threepence halfpenny. On this Amendment the House divided—For th Amendment, 16; against it, 53: Majority agains the Amenclintn:, S 7. Th. K.esolutioas were &en agreed to, and a Si! ordered to be brought in. EAST IN/CIA-WILT SIIIPS. The Report 01 the Committee on the East-India built Ships BM being t,iketi into further cunsideratio:.. Mr WALLACE proposed to introduce A IIitUSC to substitute 350 tons to lOU. As tlic Bill stood, ship tinder 11;0 tons was to obtain a registry. Ii - found Oat ships of that tonnage were riot employ e s in the EJet-I Win Trade, and therefore wishedto altt - the number to :3,50. This clout was brought up and agreed to. Mr. MAR RYATT contended, that according t . all the regulations of British trade, whatever oriel - . be said of tha India trade, no India•built ships ougl • to be allowed to trade between India and China; Mac that the China trade ought to bq carried on in British built ships only. One very important consideration on this head was, that the China trade ships were. Large ships, ships,of 1200 tons and upwards, and sec as could with ease, and indeed had been occasionall converted by us into ships of the line. If ships c: this description Were permitted to be built in Indi, there would be a number of such Vessels at all tine - hi the different dock-yards of India.in different stmt. of forwardUess; and an the event of any revolutio taking place in India, (an event we ought never to lose sight of) such ships would be found ready firth.., service of the enemy, and would be an advantage h.: would not fail t avail himself of. The Hon. Alm bei concluded by proposing a clause to this etyc:, wilts ; proviso in it, that nothing in the present At t shoild affect existing contraets. Mr. GRANT said, the erect of this clause wool be, to deprive the Comeau of the effects of the r charter altogether. In 1795, the price of shippim. was but £l4 a con ; and now it was i 631. 'the ship owners had, by meetings of their own, inzreased this rate of tonnage. If this proposition wet e agreed it would take away all the beneficial consequences ex pected from the Company's thane,. l i ttiere was doubt in his mind as to the danger to be apprehended - from the building of Large ships in India; becau.e they bad not the capital to build such slups. tended that the (hip-builders on the Thame,, et: • ployed in merchants' yards, were only equal, to the building of seven ships a year tor the pany's service. Oo the ground that much advactl,,,,. would result to the maritime service of this counii from the employment of India•bwl: ships, he woo oppose the (saws proposed by the Han. Gentlemi.l (Mr. Marryatt.) • • Mr. Alderman ATKINS contended, that sulS cient foreign oak timber cou;d be found for huildiei ships tit for the Company's servite, without friary :a the naval force of the country. The ships chit ae'e wanting to make up the number of the bet whi-.4 defeated the Dutch at Carliperdown were those till: were building for the Company's servi‘e, but tact.: up for the exigencies or the Jtate. Yet the Com pany reit no disadvantage, because they took up rat -- tonnage in the River; and also obtained extra sle in Indus to bring their teas from China. Mr. P. MOORE hoped, that if the people wt. have the sale of oak timber did not come to IN senses, the building of skips of the lime in India woo. increase rather than diminish. Mr. FORBES opposed the Clause, The House then divided—For Mr. Marryatt Clause II —Against it S9—Majority 28.—The Chau was consequently thrown out. A conversation then arose, as to the number Lascirs and British Seamen to be employed oa boat of the ships built in India. Sir C. POLE proposed, thatthe number of Eut pean - sailors on board those ships should be illCte4.: from five to seven for every 100 tons burthen. After some observations from Mr. Fa wcsTT, ‘ l ' FoIiSES, the CHANCELLott of the Excitiouse, ;;, others, the clause was agreed to without a divw. The Bill was then ordered to be read a third tit art-morrow. Mr. D. GIDDY obtained leave to bring in a Bi to enable the 'Trustees of Turnpike Roads to abate' tolls on carriages; so as to allow them to call greater weight than now, under certain circamsulx: Mr. V. rITZGE.RALD brought up several I" Treasury Estimates, which were ordered to lie I the table. Mr. ARBUTHNOT moved for accounts to the distribution of Queen Anne's Bounty.—a' ed to be laid on the table. 'The Glass Duty Bill went through a Creinetti Report to•morrow. Mr. FAWCETT moved for the Copy etaAl tniTri4l presented to the Treasury. out, e the Ship Letters Bill, by the Merchant;, othe; cone-rued an the -f, l -..st Judas Trade.—Ordcreu. Adjourned. . . MINOAITY ON Mt 10• N Ille111411e• stutiom roa otitittNa Tat Of' TioN uarosiiia As wunctAGNAL DUTT on likWitArt it Meerr, P. Mattin, J.. RiJ‘lrli, Ntr J. tl. lifienvf, F. Duncatinun, Lard Mttjarittaiik. , , -- Tm,RFY, n. Melltgorlirry, :sir H. WltAnti,- - esewport. air I. t:ompoon, Luctl I 6.1.11. 111 . Kitilii, Sir A 4. W. Aliet, t.;to. Bennet, Hun. lb' M'lnck,hir C.' Marrysi; L Gordon, lt. '.. , mith, J. Lefevrat, C.s.. t: ma!: Cor: • TX I :au.; boa Eur Mi , any USW: 60 12 a Bi:} lie ,07) . AOC , • 111- • he Ul dais ti nee Me l et 06 °the' tr.felg' Ptit% 11. le C.