Star. — London, England, 1802-04-01 00:00:00

f -.lly correfponded with his own ; they had Cinch t I for precedents and records on the fubjeet, and h al gone the length of drawing a petit ion of right, w'iich. however, never obtained acrefs to his Ma jetty. 'fly err:Rion remained as it was when he 4; ; ,t leyeac:,l his attention to it without ever having I, esi p'et in a course of judicial inquiry. It was e vident, whoever had to decide upon the iiihjeet melt form their tied lion on dffe documents which e ..01d he laid before them. If a Committee was teted, and they Ihould entertain doubts, the Coiedion might then be decided ellev:here. What the reafen was why the petition of right had not ; ,one f;n•ward, or who had been the means orpre yel:Ling it, h.- knew not. With regard to the ao c,, !nits he lhoold not 14 a ward. Whatevei: mi g h t !.ie the refult of them, and however fmall the bii "•ince in favour of the Prince of Wales might upon ..acuiry prove to be, was nothing to the purpofe. Royal • Hi z :1111Cil was anxious the account '.;:Dolt be gone into, in order that he might have :the faridac:ion of !hewing the public he had not huribeit to his country. • The Ma sr Er. of the ROLLS commenced a fpeech le; corn plinaenting the j tidicionsArrangement, acute realonin_g and catenfive legal knowledge evinced by his Hon. and Learned Friend who propofed Ibis motion ; hot there was one radical objeftion to this motion which no degree of ingenuity could do away. It propotial to ere ft a Committee of that Houle into a Tribunal for the difeuffion of a point of law, and thus to confound the, legiflative and judicial authority—a conneetion that, by the pre cedent it would effablifh, muff be productive of in. calculable mifchicf. It was impoffible not to re foal the motive which influenced the conduit of his Hoe. Fiicud—it was but juftice to them his regard for the feelings, and his folicitude for what be no doubt conceived the fair claims of his Royal Highnels : yet, however highly he appreciated' the motives of his Hon. Friend—however he might be impreffial with the equity of the Prince's pre tenfion, it ought to be considered that application Mould be made in another way and in another place, to racily thofe prctenfrali. That Houfe bad properly nothing to do with the fobjett ; it was quite a legal yuctlion, for the confideration of the Courts below, and no motive of refEt nr re gard fur any individual could jollity the Houle in interfering with it : this was the only cattle of his oppontion to the motion. Upon the na ture of the Prince's claim to the revenue of the Duchy of Cornwall he wifhed not to give an opi nion. He hoped that nothing that fell from him would be underflood to convey any decision as to the equity of thole cyms. He might be called on in his judicial capacity to decide upon this quef tion. If it fhould come before the Court of Chan cery, his affiflance might be demanded, and there fore be (Mould on this occafion decline to declare his fentiments. In the year 1795, when the affairs of the Prince were under the conlideration of Par liament, he was confuhed upon the queflion now before the Hotife; he had doubts, and timed therni bet ruitber then or now had he any doubts that this Houle could not take any.coguizance of it, nor did the Hoare at that time interfere. The Gentlemen on the other lidc,by whom the applica tion of the Prince for the payment of his debts was Ina Orentionfly fupported, did not even anode in the cowrie of debate to the claim which svas now, be pre the Houfe ; no claufe was prowled in the Bill which appointed the commiflioners for funcrincend lag the liquidation of the Prince's debts, to Autho, size thefeCommiffioners to take any proceeding for the recovery ofthis revenue ; it was left as any claim of legal right ought to be, to be af4rteff in the ordinary way before the .Courts - below. J was either a claim of right or it was not—it could have no middle denomination. If it was a claim of right, it mull be grounded upon Tome principle of law ; and if fo, was .it prqpofed to convert that Houle into a Com, of Judicature, to try a point of law ? Certainly Inch an interference could not, confiflently with found conaitutional principles, be at all tolerated. To what dangerous effeCts would it lead ! it would be prealuftive . O4erpetoal scan fulion—for parties might then pafii-lay the Courts of Law, and apply to Parliament%) any cafe of property, particularly if the cicarnefs of the right was to juflify the interference of Parliament, which by the l•y, as in the prefint.cafe, was the firongefl, argument againft loch an interference. The pre cedent might even go fo far as to encourage liti gants to apply to the :Houle If Commons for a vote upon the decifton of a Court of Law ; but what would he the confequence if party's own con ceptions of the clearnefs of a right was to be Cul ficient ground for this fpecies of application ? Courts of Law had oftentimes differed in their ideas of right. and it not unfrequently happened that the Hon. Gentleinao (hoed a thin" in a Court or Lass- which he apprehended to be perfealy right and clear, hot in which the Conrt fnme times differed with him. Would the Honour able Gentleman in fuch cafes recommend an application to the Houle of Commons? and Hill leis fhould fuch an application be permitted on party's own conception of right.. After dwell-1 mg fame time longer on this argument, which thse Right Honourable Gentleman deemed to be conclative againfi the motion of the Hon. Gentle , man for the appointment of a Committee, he pro ceed:d to comment on the arguments employed by tl-e Gentlemen who fupported that motion,toprove thc rn,ht of the Prince to the revenues of the duchy ca Corny a right which no perfon had affeded to doubt o r t o d eny ; an d yet theft Gentlemen had tenser the %unroll pains to ellablifb this propofition, that the Prince was entitled to the proceeds of that revern e during his minority—that was the thin and fibilance—the end and objea of all their rea fO•nne; : (blithe quetlion came round to this, was v ett liouf e th e p ro p er p l ace to offal that right? 'Ph: Prince, accor di ng to t hi s tra i no f reafoning,be .nig entitled to the duchy of Cornwall on his birth, the King very naturally took the management of flirt!: !monies while the Prince was incapable of .• • endi»g to them, and fuperintendcd his education. I • motion of the Hon. Gentleman now propofes . call the King to an account before a Commit 's': (if' that Ho;ife, for the expenditure of thofe re ; for to his controal were they fithjed 11,e s'tint's minority. It had no doubt been fined ton the other fide, that the Kin was not meant to be made accountable ; but he beieg,elC.n tlemcn to read the motion, and they would find it was idle and nugatory to talk of th e Ri ne ' : . ' prero ga ti ve , or o f their purpole, for t!te words of die motion were, that the Committee fhould enquire by what authority this money had heel laid out, and in what manner—if there was thinly upon this hurl:let's, as to be Prince's property, aed his right to call for a retliztition of pr i• since of it as in his opinion might have been mil applied—the Right Hon. Gentleman thought a Court of Law the fittest tribunal to appeal to for the folution, for it would he rather a Ilrange prac tice to apply to the Houfe of Commons, in a cafe of property, to expound the law. Much fleet's was laid upon the argument, that the King was not accountable, becaufe the money of the Prince was expended for the ufe of the Civil Lift, and of courfc for the public—but as no part of it could be difpofed of without the content of the King, the queftion for the Committee would of courle be, whether the King was accountable or not ? What ever the decifion of the Houfe might be on the motion of the Hon. Gentleman, very material confiderations would refult from it ; if the decifion ffiould be unfavourable to the wilhes of the Prince, a emetlion would mile, whether that decifion would preclude any application in another quarter for redrefss and if favourable to the views of his Royal Highnefs, it would then be for the option of any future Prince of Wales to leek his right either in a Court of Law, or by application for a vote of the Houfe of Commons, betides all die other con fequences which would enfue, as he had already deferibed. The Houle would do well to weigh all thefe confequences before they fhould attempt to pronounce judgment upon a quell* of fo much delicacy and difficulty. It a remedy could not be obtained at law by his Royal Highnefs, then it would be the province of Parliament to inter pole, and remove any obltruaions that might /and in the way. When any legal impediments flopped the progrefs of a fuit at law, the praaice was to apply to a Court of Equity to remove it I and what the Court of Equity generally did in fuch cafes it would be for the Houle to do in this infiance, fhould Inch impediment O'er to inter rupt the legal courfe of the Prince's ilk ; but the Right Hon. Gentleman had no doubt that the Houle fhould not interfere any furth:r. To that lie flintily! ever (Ned. It was not for tl:rn to flep out of their way. Let the praClice of the Courts he what it may, it was not for that Houfe to invade their funlions. He repeated it, that he defired it to he underflood, that in the vote h: meant to give again ft the Motion for a Committee, it was not his intention to eeprefs any doubt of the right to claim thefe revenues; he merely walled to perfuade the Houfe, that it would not he. correa in them to take any cognizance of the right or the remedy. Of this he .was fo perfealy convinced that he Aimed his Hon. V , lend, that whether his propofition and his arguments went to affea or to deny the Prince's right, hi vote would he, from the confiderations he had Rated, precifely the fame. Mr. Fox Paid, that if he undertlood the motion of the non.• Gentleman on the other fide, for the ap pointment of a CoMmittee, it ought to be viewed in quite a different light to that in which it had been confidered by the Right Hon. Gentleman who had juft fit down ; he should argue the queftion in ano ther manner, and if there was a doubt as to the proper wording of the motion, which could he stieuded, he Mould fuppofe the Houle ought not therefore to affent to the motion for the Or der of the Day. However, its he had had no op portunity of confulting with the Hon. Gentleman by whom this motion for a Committee was intro duced, and as he had not a corred remembrance of its diction, he fhould with to have' it read. —The motion being read accordingly, Mr. Fox refumed, and obferved that his undo-Rand ing was fo frail, that he did not perceive in this motion one word that involved a point of law ; it Teemed to him a quell* merely as to matter of fad. • What, therefore, the Right Hon. Gentle man, and his Right H on. Friend who opened the debate on -the other fide, took for granted, and argued fo much upon, appeared to him eumplete ly irrelevant. The motion pro; .fed to.appoint a Committee to enquire by what authotity the reve nues of the Duchy of Cornwall had been difpofed of during the minority ofthe Prince of Wales—, whether by order of his Majetly, or of the Lords of the Treafury—with a view nu doubt to ground! Come proceeding upon the refult of that enquit a procedure perfectly corral in his conception; but if the motion was not fufficiently clear to au, lover the purpofe, it might be corralled; any in correauefs in diaion would be a futile ground of oblation to the principle of it. Some ennfulion appearing in the Houle at this time, Mr. Fox took, occafion to exprels the great fatisfaaion he felt in the order which the prelent Speaker had preferred fince his accellion to the Chair, hoping that his folicitude for order would continue to be evinced, whatever might be the opinions or the party of the Speaker.—[/f aaural cry of hear! be a r!] Mr. Fox proceeded—lie conceived the queftion before the Houfe to relate entirely to faits upon which the Houfe alone was competent to enquire and to all ; it would not at all, as the Learned Gentleman at the lower end of the Houfe maintained, by any 'means invade the itriA conftitutional principle—it imported this propofition—how much money is due to the Prince of Wales from the revenues of the Duchy of Cornwall expended during his Royal Highnefs's minority—and how is it to he paid ? Can any demand be more unexceptionable ? The Learned Gentleman had declined 'to enter into the quellion as to the right of the Prince. — The arguments ufed by his Learned Friend (Mr. Erfkine) and by the Hon. Mover of the Commit tee were niumfwered ; and in his (Mr. Fox's) opi-• nion, they were unanfwerable. They moll clearly dlablifhed the right of the Prince to the Revenues of Cornwall, from the hour of his birth. This point the Learned Gentleman had not attempted to impugn. It appeared then that his Majelly ought, in his proteftion of the Prince, to have aded like any other guardian, folly for the itite tell of his ward. The L e arn e d C o ol er/ l en heal e d that the Parliament fhauld not interfere in this cafe, bee:lore it was a epteßion of law but the LearnaGentleman did not defcribe in %that man ner redvefs at law was to be obtained. If, as the Learned Gentleman feemed to think, the King was not to be accountable, it was precifely a cafe for I„:giLlative interference. If the King was to have distribution of this revenue without controul, :he grant of Edward the Third and the nature of Henry the Sixth, and the repeal in the fame reign %you'd be idle proceedings ; they would be entii el v u relefs flat ates. When the Learned Gentleman laid 17) much It refs on the impropriety of Parliamentary interpofition in this cafe, he ought to have fixed the other modes to which he alluded, ai more eli gihlc for the Prince to retort to for the recovery of his rights ; the Learned Gentleman had not even hinted at any feafible means of 'bringing this queftion to a determination in any Court of Law. For the laws of England he (?Sr. F.) pro. felled the molt profound refped—he profelfed it mnft unaffededly, and the more he fludied them the more his admiration was increafed, not for the ftatutes, but for the principles of the Englifh law. There were, however. Tome defeets to be feen in them, and the molt ftriking was, the lily ation of the King and the Prince of Wales during I a minority. Without a ftatute of Regency efpe cially enaded for the purpole, what was to be come of an infant King ? How was the Govern ment and Revenue to be managed by a child ? And a fimilar defea related to the infancy of the Mince of Wales. How was the revenue of the Duchy of Cornwall to be difpofed of during his minority ? The defeA of our laws brought that queftion this day before the Houfe—and to af.411 their judgment they had the precedents quoted by I the Learned Mover of the Committee ; and in modern times the decifion of King George the Se cond in Council, that Frederic Prince of iVaies was entitled 'to the whole revenue of the Duchy of Cornwall from his birth—that was all the motion, OPpofed by the Right Hon. Gendeman on the other fide, had in view. The Learned Gentleman declined to give any opinion on the juttice of the Prince's claim, left the cafe lhoold hereafter come before him in his judicial capacity; a very landa• ble motive certainly ;—and he hoped the Prince, Amid the vote of tis day be repugnant to his withers, would be able to avail himfelf of tome law proceeding to, procure reflitution of his property. As a general principle he woald fithfcribe to the dodrine that the Legiflative and judicial authorities thould not interfere with each other—but he would contend that, how ever much that principle was to be admired in the abarad, it ought to give way to the fuhftantial claims of juaice. The queftion then was, whether this was a cafe of fuch importance as tit jullify a fufpenfiffi of that principle, and whe• cher the caufe of jullice forcibly called for it ? It was no common fubjeft—it was not a private cafe, it was between the King and the Heir Apparent, and precifely of fuch a nature as called for Parliament to interfere—conlidered in any view, it appeared Itrongly to intereft every man's retire of equity—a Prince conceiving himfelf aggrieved, the rents of his property daring his minority withheld, and the law pointing out no remedy by which to re cover—it would be felt as an extreme hardfhip by any private individual. Lcgiflative interference, he was decidedly of opinion, was never more jullly demanded. If this revenue was applied to the par. pores of the Civil Lill, it was of comic applied to public purpofes, and produced a diminution of the debts of that eflablif:nient. There were therefore two parties againft whom the Prince applied for redrefs. The King, who diteded the appropria tion of this money, and the public who benefited by it.: The King is ?rotated by his prerogative—the complainant is told he cannot make his Majetty ac countable ; and the public or their Reprefentatives will not fuffer even an enquiry to take place. Was not that (Mr. F. ;liked) a cafe of revere hardfhip % And Inch would be the fituation of the Prince of Wales, thould the motion for a Committee be re jefted. Among the arguments tired by the Right Hon. Gentleman on the op Fite fide,there was one which Itruck himfrom the fingularly curious nature of it. The Right Hon. Gentleman Rated, that the 90,0001. of the revenues of the Duchy of Cornwall, applied to the tire of the Civil Lift, were appro priated in no other way for the ufe of the public, but to fecret fervice money ; a pretty confola don truly, to tell the Prince that his revenue was not applied to the tife of the Public, but for porix)fes of corruption. (A cry of Hear ! bear ! 'lran the Oppeition Beachrx.] The • public was the Prince's debtor, and when he came for pay ment he was told that his money was fquanJcred, and the perfonswho fquandered It told him to leek for it, but they would not tell him where and by what means. Without meaning to derogate from the charaaer of the Learned Gentlemen, whole abilities he (Mr. F.) very much refofted, he mutt fay, that however great the ingenuity which that Learned Gentleman had erhibited,he did not meet the queftion fdirly—he new-. pretended to difpute the right of the Prince, yet he oppofed the only mode which appeared to promife the benefit of that right, without prapofing any other mode in its place ;—that was not quite' fo candid. The Prince applied to Parliament as referees between his Royal Highnefs and the Public ; he did not ap-• ply to them to pronounce a legal decifion, but to make provifion for the payment of a Mil debt. Such was the end and objed of the motion which it was attempted to get rid of by moving the,Or der of the Day. He trufted that attempt would not rucceed, and that the Houfe would make lonic arrangement confonant to the calls of jultice which thould let therfeelings of two Great Perfonages at cafe. The journals were not without precedents of the Houfe interfering in points ot Jaw. They came to a declaration on the fubjed of general warrants—a cafe which die Learned Gentleman might perhaps call an invation of the pri vileges of a Court of Law. Parliament had made many filch interferences in the reigns im mediately following the revolution, and - in the reign of Charles the Second. if the cafe now be fore the Hook related merely to private property, the objeftions of the Learned Gentleman might have tome weight; but in this inftance• the li Gantt are the Prince of Wales and the King, or, mons . . • ' '- clan - redly fraking, S4r the public. The one ha , : to 111,2 w the money tpant tiefacie and the mbar the purpofes to which i: was applied, :nal tomake pre. patations to retinal h . . If this money was :TIM). priated to the purpoks of the p;aey put fe, thz ar gument for this motion was alit itrumaer. .euit had it been In lie was firmly peiluaded that ilia Royal Iliehtiefs would never have le ouch: The fubjed into ii,ie itic.n. His Royal Highness lea, as he lhoeld feel, too high a ralicei tor 1:14:11 a lather t i .an 1 , ---be woul.i faal iiimfell ariel y c t». Nitrated by the attention and patereal Li . 11e... he had experienced, for any p.:coniary lo:',his 1 . al Highnefs would not, coder such di:at:nit...! ,:. look for any enquiry. The PI il)c:., he was ps.a fttadedoeculd he as flow to demand it, as ti. Liog would he ready to p a y i t , if &man:lel—bat La had no difficulty la affettiog the public was the. Prince's debtor. Pealing the diiTicalt:es ii . ler which the Prince laboutred—difficolties ivat.7l, could not attaah to any pr:vate iedVdaal,—t': it though his right was clear and undif:mted, li;s remedy was far front bei:ig ciear,and was tit caely difputcd, he (Mr. Fox) hoped the Ho , tfe, for their own credit, would take the bulinats in..st con fideratinn, and ad as became an Afllleilily alive to fentiments of linneur. The Pig!t: Pon. Gentleman on the onpolta fide had a.arau:d, that the King, as Guardian, was not 1,0)0 to t h e rules and laws which aliened a ro'ej C't ; that L'it•!l if lie were, the expellee of tha Puttee's education thould be dedadad ft oto tit! revenues oldie Duch/ of Cornwall, and that thea a very (mall b4leece would remain. Tice argument w as wc.ik, f or .I. e Houfe would recoiled that his Majelly had alto educated the I)ukc of York, without intel ferirg with hi privata patihnony. The reventies of ;he Billtopiic . :a . naburgh wet e held sacred, and tai•h their pi-duce climes were pm-chafed in thi , count try for that Royal Duke. He did all in Mat in- Rance as became a father, and as a Kia a •a . r;teat Iltietin ought to aa.—Coald it be Inertial C...t he would make any filch diClinalion Fel kacen I.s ions as the argument of C:. , : Right Honoarable Gentleman would intimate I Certainly not. Butt even if the dillination was to be drawn, du e ha lance allawed by the Right Honourable Cientia. man to be doe to the Prince would be coofider. ably advanced, if the latter years of his mino rity, when the expence of education could not be raid to continue, were to he dcdualed. With reined to the filence of thole who fupported the Prince's application to Parliament, in reni, on the fubjea of this claim, it was Cutely rather unfair to draw, from the negligence of tho: . e. inp. porters, an argument againd the equity of the Prince's pretenlions at this day, even if the:e fop. porters were negligent ; but the fad was that Me ilis. Wallace, Lee, Erlicine, and Paine, were then con ceited upon theTubjed, and in cenfequence of fome difference of opinion between thefe celebrated men, arifing,no doubt, out of the glorious uncertain, y of thelaw,it wasleft undetermined. As to the Prince's gra eflablilment, he was at the time decidedly of opinion that it was much too frnall fora pet fon of his high rank ; but his opinion and that of others was overruled by the fentiments of his Majef . - ty. Upon the whole, he thought a wrong view had been r:tken of the que;lioa by the itzght Hon. Gentleman oppolite to him, and the Learned. Gentleman at the lowcr end of the Houle. He profefred to efieem the Ipirit, pradicc, and formt of the law; and he hoped it would not be eon. tended that either' could impede the progrefs of justice, whether applied to perfons in 'high or low rank. Though it was fo itrongly contested that this was a law queflion, no one gave one hint of the mode of trying it—No not even a ea:immering of hope that it could he tried, or that the Legifia ture would be refitted to in any thane, cr at any time, to decide it, or to facilitate its decifinn elle, where. He hoped and willed, however, that whatever might he the vote of this day the matter in difpute would he Citisfadorily determined sin tome way. It ought to be recollected, that by the arrangements of 1795 the Ps ince was very much Ilraitened: and that lie had since moll refpceilluily conformed to arrangements, promoting by every means in his power the ditcharge of all demands upon him. It oug':t alto to be confidered how much there arrangements ditqualifi‘d his Royal Highnefs from maintaining the splendour of his Ration ; and furely the fplendour of the Prince was entitled to Come confideration, as that of the Monarch formed fo material a part of the argu ment on a late occallon—as that was conceived - to effential, the fplendour of the Heir Apparent was of tome importance alto. Let not that fidendour be any longer fufpended. So firongly imprelfed was he (Mr. Fox) of the neceffity of relieving the Prince from the preffure to which he had fo long and fo patiently fubmitted, that had application been made to Parliament in his favour, indepen dent of this quiellion, that application Ihouild have had his warmefi support. " Thepublic on this oc cation, (laid Mr. Fox) if they willaidopt the lan.' guage of the Right Hon. Gentlemaa oppollte 'to me and his Learned Friend, teem tome to fay to the Prince, ' We acknowledge we owe you itoney, but you behaved unhandfomely in applying to us as a creditor ; try to litigate it in Court, if yon pleafe, but we will not gripe ion any affiliance; we rather fufpaa you have no meanSof enforcing pay. went ; your right may be clear, but"take your re. medy ; go to your Attorney and consult with him, and he perhaps will tell you you have no remedy... Such (added Mr.F.) is the honeli lartiage which the rejeaion of this motion for a 'Committee will holdout to the Prince. One of three things nittft be done in this bufinefs ; the one to pay the Prince if there is no doubt of his right, and do honour to the reputation of Parliament ; the other, if there ii a doubt, let it be inveßigated, and come to a deci. lima upon the refult of that invetligation ; the third is, if you difapprove of the grounds of the claim, declare that your deci' - ion in this cafe (hall not be a ground for the finisher preceed ng to any e, futue Prince of Wales. If, however, you wii: !end :is Royal Hie! alars to the Courts beiata. n, ta*.a",he ti e atarle he ought to purfue; but I fhouldrecommend the application of the a..%,::zentum ad inconvenitnti to i•.l,is as in another cafe, in which a declaratory.:aw •is trade, era- , :aliti from its operation a Gentle. maa then Lttint, in that Houk. in oppofition to the M.} ~~ 0