Star. — London, England, 1805-05-11 00:00:00

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The petition having been read by the Clerk, Lord GRENVILLE rofe and addreffed the Houfe to the following effect I rife, my Lords, with great fatisfadion, to ad drefs your Lordlhips, after the very moderate and refpedful petition which has been jot} read. lam happy to recoiled that when I gave notice of this difctifilon on a former day, an opinion was expreffed by Noble Lords, that this great fubjed ought to meet with a fair, full, and impartial difcuffion. The perfons who have figned this petition, have done every thing in their power to entitle them to fueh a difcuilion in this .Houfe. They addrefs a body whom no local prejudices can be fuppofed to affect the contideration of their claims, and where party violence cannot be fuffered to have - any weight in deliberating on ro important a fubjed. I will fay • for myfl, that I am wholly incapable of the folly or wickednefs of introducing, or of fupporting in this Houk, for parry purpofes, any meafure that is fo materially and effentially conflated with the profpe rity, peace, and unity of the empire. I might ap peal to all your Lordfhips, whether, if this were a question likely to conduce to views of fuch a nature, and if the individual who addreffes you had fuch an cbjed, his condal would not have been precifely the reverfe of that which he has, in the courfe of this bnfinefs, found it proper to adopt. I am well aware, that in loch a queftion I mull make up my mind to encounter much perional oppoiltion, and many at perlians ; no common degree of clamcnr and mifre prefentation, with many ill founded forpicions re fpeditig my own fentiments in general. All:this I I expel, and in return for what mull be felt on this head, I mull confole myfelf with the gratifi cation of having endeavoured to difcharge a great public duty.. Whatever may happen, I (hall not have to t eproach myfelf with the evils that might re- Cult from the fuppreffion of this petition ; the mil chiefs art ling from which mull be infinitely greater than any that can arife, had no opportunity been thus publicly given to examine and difcufs the merits of the petition now before your Lordlhips. lam con fident, my Lords, that the fubjed will be fairly and juilly confidered in this Houfe ; and that if not now, , yet that the day is not very far dillant when its prayer will be granted. What would have been the cafe had it been in the power of the Roman Catho lics of Ireland to fay, there is not one perfon whom we can find to prefent our prayer to the attention of the United Parliament.? the Legifiature has Phut its doors againil us I' What mull have been the im. preffion made upon them, but feelings of abfolute defpair ? How contrary, my Lords, to all the views we were led to expect from the event of the Union, which held out the profped of an impartial and un biaffed Pariiiment, freed from all peculiar preju dices, and ready and defirous to confider the willies of a nnmercus, confiderable, and refpeetable dais of our fellow fubjeds ! Whether the petition be com plied with or not, furely it demands our moil parti cular and impartial confideration. " This being the cafe, my Lords, how Shall I be• gin the difcullion of this lubjeet, and lay before you the grounds on which I humbly think the claims cf the Catholics of Ireland are worthy to be granted.— I (hall begin by (Wing, as the foundation of the po licy of this meafure, though it is a fart that feems fcaicely ever to enter into the confideration of thofe. who arc decidedly adverfe to it, that in this United Kingdom you have a population of from three to 5,000,0c0 of fellow fubjeCts, who have been educated in the Roman Catholic Religion, who profefs that faith, and are firmly attached to it, and whom you mutt confider, for every purpofe of Government and Legiflation as perfons to be treated as Roman Ca tholics. In Ireland, it mutt be recollefted, that three fourths of the population of that country is compofed of perfons of that perfuafion, and that it is therefore impoffible to attempt to provide for the Govern• anent of Ireland, or for the happinefs of its inhabi tants, without adverting contlantly to this fart, and ' giving it that leading confideration which it muff al ways deferve. We are to confider this (tare of the faEt, as it has been fince the period of the reforma tion, as it is at the prefent moment, and as it is likely to be beyond any time to which we can rationally 4nok. It is impoffible for any wife man to :hut his eyes upon the fad, that three-fourths of the people of Ireland are of the Roman Catholic faith, and fay. 4 I will provide only for thofe who profefs the ella blithed religion, and leave all the tell out of my con fidericion. Ilope no man will be found to main tain (itch a propofition. If any perfon Ihould enter tain fuels an opinion, let his eyes turn back to the time of the Reformation, and point out, if he can, at what period, fince that event, he will not find the state of religion in Ireland to be nearly the fame.— Ala , how can he look forward to any means of go vern* that country, without that feature which has been to Ilrongly marked for more than two -centu ? I will not detain and trouble your Lordfhips tedious, and wearifome details of Catho lic T. At the Revolution the Catholics were viewed as connected with thofe political fentiments which were adveife to the Revolution. It was not fo moch against the religion of the Catholics that our efforts were then direfted, as againtt thofe politics t:i!ertained by the profeffors of the Catholic faith, in favour of the exiled family. I do not mean to condemn, or even to arraign the policy of thole time, which depended very much on a varie ty of'important local circumflances : but the ft:e a:lea of ii,ofi days, is not t& . fituaion of this.— it is only doing bare jullice to one of the greatefi of Princes, to one of the belt and molt enlight ened friends of toleration, when I fay that it is aut on the memory of King William, that a de- parture from the principles of toleration lhould be charged. No part of fuch a teem could have ob tained the approbation of that illuftricus Monarch. Itt the fubfequent reigns, an opinion was maintained, that a Roman Catholic mull ever be the irrecon cileable enemy of Protellant Eflablifbments and Proteftant Governments, both in ,England and in Ireland : that no alteration of circumltances, no ac quifition of benefits, no lapfe of time, could ever ex tinguilh in his heart the implacable feeds of animo• Pity, which the bare profeffion of his religions faith had implanted there. How incapable fuch a doc trine moil be of fupport, from fair argument, every thinking man mull perceive; it will not bear it for a moment ; yet, upon fuch a principle, the fyflem of condua towards the Catholics teems to have been founded. The confequence was, to exclude the Intl Catholic from all (hare in the 'privileges of his Protellant fellow-tubjeds. Thus all influence was to be taken from him, becaufe it might lead to the poffeffion of power, and all acquifition of property, becaufe it led to influence. Even the favour of to leration was denied him, and the rites, of domellic life were forbidden; not even the intermarriage of the King's fubjeds was allowed, where one of the parties chanced to be a Roman Catholic. In fhort, the fyttem teemed to have for its objet, to drive the whole body of the Roman Catholics out of the Wand, or to reduce thofe who remained upon it to a fet of wretched, degraded, ignorant, illiterate peafantry : and as a great man once Paid, If the objed was a wife and good one, undoubtedly no tyllem was ever better calculated to produce its end.' They were kept poor and inconfiderable : they were perfecuted, degraded, and excluded : they were, by every mode, alierated from the conflitntion ; and in proportion as they were alienated, their feelings were exafperated, and their hearts embittered. I hate, my Lords, the fituation in, which his pretest Majefty found three or four millions of his fubjeds. What has been done in the cootie of this reign, and what a linking contrail does it offer to the injullice and impolicy of the for mer fyftem ? By wife and gradual meafures, the bet ter perhaps becaufe they have been gradual, you have reverted the whole of the fyflem. It is hardly to be credited, that within the preterit reign it fhould have been found neceffary to pats an Ad to enable the King's fubjefts to intermarry. A full toleration has followed, and the privileges of education, with the repeal of many molt odious meafutes, which were ori ginally patted to coned evils, not by making Ca tholics good Proteßants, but by making them bad members of families: They have likewife received an intend in the land, by affording them a partici. pation in the foil. They art alto now allowed to (hare in the increafing benefits nf trade : they have gained the eleftive franchife, and a large (hare of the the executive offices of the country, with the ex ception of Tome of the higher. and of feats in the Legiflature. All this you have done, and by de. grees you have teen the wealth and the refonrces of Leland increafed greatly. Few countries, if any, have, in fo tort a time, made fo rapid a pro. seek in opulence, in commerce, and, in what is fo important, in civilization. Great encouragement I ha; alfo been given to agriculture, and in fo doing the wealth of the nation has been much augmented. You were not fo ignorant as not to know that this amelioration would foon (hew itfclf in the lower and in the middle claffes of fociety, and it is no (mall con rotation to know, that you have railed np a middle clafs of fociety in that country, a clafs that till lately hardly excited there. As they rote in wealth they naturally increated in attachment to the country, and in that importance which you profeired to with. At Lit you extended all thofe &kith privileges except thole now folicited. You gave them eligibility to offices, with a few exceptions. Here then a Rand was made for a time. Not becaufe it was right to fay, here we will take our Rand, and go no fur ther," for the fyllem of conceffion was gradual, and the mode and terms of the conceffions never applied that nothing more Ihould ever be granted. It was necefrary fo to grant, as to make the conceffions compatible with that harmony which was defirable on all hands in the cafe of fuch large conceffions, which were made without unfeemly hefitation and grudging, and in a manner tending to conciliate thofe to Whom the boon was given. There were confithr ations of great weight which rendered it doubtful whether we could give all that might be wanted in the high Parliament, without fomething, perhaps, very like a convulfion in the country. 'the popular part of the liith Legislature did not rife by accident, as in this country, till it became a reprefentation of the various intereffs of the nation ; but a large part of it was exprefsly framed for the purpore of making the Legiflature entirely Proteßant, and of excluding three-fourths of the country. Many reafons, indeed, appeared, againit endeavouring to adopt this mea fore in the kith Parliament ; but thefe reafons, I am happy to fay, are now entirely done away, by the falutary operation of the wife arrangement for the ditiribution of the Reprefentatives of Ireland in the United Parliament: and it Ihould be remembered that in proportion as you give additional influence to the Catholics of Ireland now, you give the lame to 'the great body of Proteßants throughout the Empire. The Union not only removed thefe dif f iculties ; it did more, which your Lordthips, I am fore, will bear in mind. It excited ardent hopes in the perrons of The frith Catholics. On this fubjed I (peat from a knowledge of the fads. There was no pofitive obli gation nor authorifed promife, on the part of Go. versiment, in the event of the Union, to the Catho lics ; but it is no leis true, that the whole of the ar gument and reafoning of thofe who fupported that meafure, in and out of doors, went to prove, that this important fultjed would be better conlidered here than in the Irilh Parliament. And. one great con. fideration in favour of the Union was, the profpcd it held out of a mode of dctlroying thole religous ani. morales and that party fpirit, which had be e n th e causes of to many great calamities. It was from the nature of the rubjed Well that the bilk Catholics • were judified in their expedations of this meaffire ; at lead, this affurance was given them, that the United Parliament would undoubtedly receive their petition, and attentively confider the whole circumstances of their cafe. It is this pledge, my Lords, that I now call upon you to redeem. Ido net mean at prefent to propofe any particular meafure, though I-(hall not refrain from Rating what I think ought in policy and juffice to be done : but Falk of your Lorelfhips in candour and fairnefs, to hear them with patience, and to remember that the diffufion of equal rights and equal privileges, under the fame Conditivion, is the moll effeduil mode of fecuring equal affedion and equal attachment to the Government and the country. The motion I than fubm i t is, that this Houle do re folve itfelf into a Committee to confider the Petition, which I think cannot be oppofed, milers by thofe who are willing to give a full negative to the whole of the matter under confederation. I mud fay, that with refped to the different parts of the Petition, I think it is highly expedient to grant the whole, if you mean to difcharge that duty which the Union has impofed upon you, and to provide for the real and ellential Union of all die inhabitants of this Kingdom, it, bonds of afferlion and loyalty, and a refulution to defend the King and Conttitutional intereft of the country, againit all enemies, external and interal. quellion is in a certain degree to be placed on the ground of erpedieney, and not' of right.— When the fafety of the whole requires it, it 4 in the privilege of the whole to provide difabilities. But the quedion is, whether there is any neceility for the con tinuance of thofe rellraints on four or five millions of the King's fubjeds, from the benefits of the Contlitu tion of the Country ? I might only date, that on the eternal principles of judice, if there be any fuch ne. ceffity apparent, thole who would continue thefe re ttraints, ought to thew their reaforis. If it be our pride and happinefs to be judged by equal law:, let thee who would limit and curtail that equality, ex plain the grounds of their rellridion. This principle I ventured to Hate on a former occafion, and though fome were inclined to difpute it, they could get no farther in their oopofition than to deny it : indeed it feems to be impuffiole for any man, who has the right ufe of his underttanding, to deny its application, in inch a Conditution as ours. I fubmit my motion now, Rating, that no fuels neceffity exitts, waiting for an anfwer, and ready, thould it be neceffary, to offer my poor thoughts in reply. But really, my Lords, I am ready even to take the proof upon my felf. I take the Britilh Conti Itution to he founded on equal laws. It acknowledge; fonae diffinetions and privileges, it is ti'ue—but where there is a redraint on four millions of perfons, there mud abfolo tap appear fome manila and palpable ground of expediency or neceffity for its continuance. The Catholics come before you, retrained from feats in Parliament, from various high offices in the date, and in profeflions, from ferving as fheriffs, and with fame qualifica:ions from corporations. The quetlion is, what fhould in duce you to retain there refirietions ? One reafon that I have heard I fhould be unwilling to impute to any perfon; but I have keard or read lomewhere, that no Catholic can be a good fubjed. Thus let me ark your Lordlbips, if this be true, how can they he fit fur all that mat's of offices for which their eligibility has been acceded to them, with the exception of about thirty. To all military rank below that of generals ; to all revenue offices, except tour or five ; or to (wear al. legiance at the table of a court of judice ? No man lhould have agreed to their admiffion, mod, lefs have propofed to admit them into courts °fluffier, who held fuch opinions of them. But endeavours have adually been ufed to perfuade the public, that no Catholic can be a true and loyal fuljcd. I have heard of tome old molly forgotten records, from which old dos9rines have been picked out, which are drawn forth againli the folemn and pofitive declara tions of living men, Paying, what they profefs, and dd. claiming what has been objected to them. In fad, laying to the Roman Catholics, s I know your reli gion better than yourfelf. If you deny the perfect:- tion of beretica, I tell you that yr ur religion enjoir it. If you difclaim the violation of faith with heretics, I tell you that it is a do&rine of your church. If you fay you do not believe in the cifpenfing power of the Pope, I fay you do believe i• I' I fhould think, my Lords, it is enough to take a =l.'s own fenfe of the obligations of his own religion, and his own tells and declarations, on thole fubjeds 'which have been dif puted, aryl not your own opinion on fume obfolete opinions which they deny. I know not where pule cution is to end, if you try, and condemn and punifh men not for being guilty,but for opinions which they do not hold. If it be true that you have altually dil covered by the Council of Lateran or of Conitance, or by fome old decretal or canon, that a Catholic can not be trutled, it mull apply to all modes, and to every view of the future, and lead to a et-tirade, to drive all thofe irreconcileable enemies of the Protef taut Government out of the country they inhabit.— How am I to argue the point, that the whole body of the Catholics is not difloyal ? By referring to the repeated Ads of the Prote dant Legiflature of Ireland! I know of no mode to exhibit mathematical, or arid. ly logical proofs of the Rebellion in Ireland not hav ing been what is termed a Catholic Rebellion. There had been two feparate rebellions in Ireland before. Look at the Ads of Parliament, s and you will find that the demeanour of the Catholics is charaderized for the loyalty of the body, notwithdanding the con- Tolled Rate of the times. Noble Lords cannot forget 4 the period of the American war, When the navy of the enemy triumphed in the Channel ; when Ireland was threatened with invafion ; I fpeak in the bearing 4 of individual witneffes, of thole who have been Lord 'Lieutenants, and Secretaries to Lord Lieu tenants. At that critical time the Catholic Body was not confidered to be difeffedad to the Pro tedant Government, but were thought fit to be en trulted with arms for the defence of their country. The next thing I (hall notice is what is notorious to every man who has heard of the Rebellion, that the confpiracy was framed and carded on by perfous Naming themfelves United Kamen, a term eei. deafly adopted to comprehend men of all defcriptions I ' religion, an union of feds and by no means of the 'Catholic perfu a lio n on ly. In the courfe of the in furredion, the principal leaders punithed were ac ,tual:y Pn'teflants. The Rebellion took its rife in circumStances wholly foreign to religious opinions, and pointed to very different objets t and in the event of heeds, the overthrow. of Catholic power was as certain as that of Protellant ascendency. Its object was, not merely to overturn the Proteflarrt bnt the blenarchy, and to atchieve the independence and fep . aration of Ireland from Great Britain. It has been Paid, that in Come" places All the Rebels were Catholics; but if all the inhabitants there were Catholics, it is not very fur prifing that many Catholics Should be Rebels. But did that Rebellion difplay no inaances of Catholics Ibuggling for the Cenftitution, Tithing their lives against the enemies of their Sovereign, and manifell ing as Int?ch bravery as others did in the ranks of re bellion, (haring with Protellants the danger of the times If at prefent three-fourths of Ireland are better difpoled towards you than they have been for many years pall, is it not as fair to give them credit, as to throw refleelioes upon their loyalty ? You have the ihongell evidence in their favour, in their own folemn repeated difclaiming of all that you objea to them ; but you have recourfe to old-fashioned abfurd arguments. Aye, let them fwear what they will, they can recur to the difpettling power of the Pope, in which every Catholic believes!' If that be true, and that four millions of fubjeets cannot be believed on their oaths, then they are pofitively difyialified from civil government ; and therefore we ought to withhold from them not merely what they now ask, but the partial conceffions made to them ought to be retraeted : for. I repeat it, in Such a fituAtion they are abfolutely difyialified by Gots and nature from the advantages of civil government. But this is nor a very happy argument for thole who ufe it, Since the very reflridlions impofe an oath. You fay you think the Catholic dangerous, unlefs he takes the oath of fupremacy. What ? but will he not violate the oath? If he be difpofed to violate his oath, what prevents his taking it ? I expect to hear it obferved, that no Prick have Signed the Petition I hate had the honour to prefent. But lam authorifed to (late as a reafon for this, that the rnatter,'relaring,only to civil rights, and not having any relation to any Stations the Cler gy-can fill, they thought it more proper to abllain from putting their Signatures to it. But they arc per ! . feelly willing to join in it, and I am willing and ready` to thew that the refpesflAble Prelates of that Church (for refpcdable I muff call them) have all actually taken the oaths, and believe them to be qu;te confer , mable to their church. They have earnestly exhorted their clergy to do the fame, st he are ready to take them as willingly as the lehicriber s. But if all the Ca tholics have not been traitors, all C irholic Prielts, it swears, mull now, of necellity, be reckoned traitors, mailer, the Pipe, has taken a journey to Paris to crask . n Bonaparte, and by this ft:int - adios their allegiance ic tranferred to France. Mark, my Lords, the wendetful force of di's Species of argu. ment. Really it is fo trifling that I lhosild have taken no notice of it, were it not attempted to make use of it, to revive heart-barnings and animofities, not only in Ireland, brit even here :ilk As if we had not known enough in this very town, of the mifchief and danger of the abfurd cry of " No Popery," bandied about for'the purpofe of railing a clamour and riot, and creating an infurredion to prevent the Legiflattne from patting an Ad of fubilAntiAl justice. But is the Pope really more ibe enemy 'his country now than he was when the family of the Bourbons were - on the throne of France ? Is be more heltile to us than.when the claim' of the Pretender were declared and fup. ported at Rome, and when he reacted there ? Can any perf m imagine that the Pope has a more carnet with to exalt the power. of France more at prefent than in fo rmer tu t e es ? I hope there is no man but views with pity the degraded Situation of the Roman Ps noff in the recent tranfailion at Paris; and the humiliating circumstances in which he is placed. Circumflances , eltich mull, one Should think, inspire him with deep mortification, andwith difgutl at thole who impofed :hem upon him. What inference can be drawn by any reafonable man feorn the tituation of the Pope, ' but that his influence has diminillied, and his power is much lets to be feared in every refpeel, than that of any preceding Pope ?. What can be better calculated to deflroy his greatnefs, than to reprefent him in that degrading and dilhonourable ceremony-? The times have been when Popes fupported France with all their might, without producing any dangerous confequen ccs in Ireland. I remember when the lail Pope ex erted himfelt to fupport your Government, and jolt r with as much die& as when he oppofed it i • his weak nefs in both cafes was equal. Li the prefe nt State of lEurope the power of the Pope has no effed whatever in Ireland. If, my LOrtls, all thefe allegations were 'abfislutely true, that the Catholic Religion does make all men sfho profefs it difloyal, acd that the new date of France has thrown the Pope entirely into her' hands, then, the neeeffity of ri roving to countered that difpolition, would demand of u, to take fuels meditates as arc now propofid. I would fay, in that case, that the allies of Bonaparte are not the Catholic Clergy of Ireland ; but these w:to exafperate men's minds by tiling to excite animosities that were gra. du..lly composing, and might be fettled and tran quillized. But it was laid, &mild your Lot dlhips comply with. this Petitior, the conseeueace fh muff be the repeal of the l't;il Ad ; but without tuteting at all into the quelli..n of fuch a repeal, whether you may thiak• it Advil - able, or not, this, at leaf', I am lure of, that it is ads &able to Mita to the Catholic Petition. Even though pm Should think fit to continue the ditabilitiee attached to the Di,linters, it •could be a ntua unjull, unwarrant able, and unheard of argument, to tacit that the Ira Catholics 'hall not be relieved, became you are unwilling to telieve the Diffenters in this country, a body of wen in a fguatiou totally unconneCted with