Star. — London, England, 1815-05-02 00:00:00

T 7— ; i n stance, that woe _were two ways in which .a .mb , ..t may discharge his duty to his Constituents, u. vr.se oting titeit petition, the first, by doing all in li ~ rto get it t er-rived ; and second, by doing every t1:-.itig- to get it rejected--(n tur s p,h.) This ap pealed to him a petition, not against the Property 'Pox, again;s Ministers, and praying for peace. This was perfectly regular. It such ingenuity of construction were adopted in the House, almost no petition ttld pass the ordeal. It was remarkable tl , at thi . - , e who opposed this petition, chose dif. Lien, and that no one could lay his finger upon anyt. , ssage by %%inch the objection was fd i fty sostaii..t. It was askod by an Honourable Gentle pin, (Mr. Peel) weuld the petitioners be satisfied if wi.re i eitry./ed ? lie (Mr. Tierney) would sits ter t Without any communication on the t 0::: thry wcuid—(a bash.) When he looked to „ 1 / 4 , r,! ! -, et• till, he had doubts whethei it ; . * .r :•• t.J eew taxes, 40 that this b e ing the .it .t tax, would not . be included. (The .I.:.vch..r,rier was lure observed to the Exchequer was, it appeared, ai I.'ll ,t iitin. , •iir on the subject of the City , Of (a 'y Su!•j:.:-. to the opinion of the. ..ir. lac c ont.:‘;.. tut,. as not extending to the a Dv. lie could easily see why i.buisters op; nsca the petition. They were unwilling to record own unpopularity, which in the City of London airont ted almost to execration. He regretted that, the the r etition was not directly against the PiiTeity Tax. Bat this was not its object. The Property 'fax was not that against which the meet ing p i e posed to petition. He would appeal to the 'worthy Alderman himself, was the meeting called to' petition against the Property Tax ? (Sir W. Curtis, Cei ta Ir—upon which Mr. Tierney instantly sat dint t-..) Mr. XV A LIACE said, the Petition was substan ti illy against the tax, and called upon the House to vin&cate its own dignity, by rejecting a communi catitin n:ade in toms so violently libellous, and which the petitioners must have been aware was in .tchnisj Mr. BARING' thought it prima facie evidence of the intf&nsiveness of the petition that the worthy Al clet man had telt it his duty to present it. He would sagge-st that in cases of doubt there should always be a in favour of petitioners. He doubted whe dirt- a direct petition might not be admissible against the comiiiinroce of a tax, which was the case before the House. 'lle Property Tax was continued in ups radon like the annual Malt Bill, or any of the other annual '2:tic. In this petition, however, there was rio prat} ea 4:2.l;nst it. He thought, to enable the House to form a fair judgment, the petition should In read. Lord CONIVION wished that the petition should' 1w hr. up, in ender that it ;night be read, and then the i-lw:se c: de upon it on its met its, riot by technical formal:ty. :)111.11 ttinly.,..t it veTv that it any t ctrl; the prayer et the f ieti.ion, it would have been stated by the li•sittty t,!ermatt who had so reluctantly presented it, ante; indeed, in dna case, %%until n.thave pre- It A:.111. Zvt W. Ci ; RTES s.tiii, he had great doubts of the -fait In ato the 1-I..te.e, and that he ct...:int.:.e,.ted oft the subj . :et will a Right Ho slooral•ac (tae Chancellor ut the / Exclav e...! the itv hi, ev e. a •I'.e CIiANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ex i lessed his regie: that the worthy Aideani us had Lot opened mote fully the mattir of this petition whin Le fi.st offered it to the attentinn of the House. It vould, he apprehended, have saved much discussic.n • upon It. Hr. VONSONBY said, the present debate was the s'l -aegest he had ever known in that House. It pre ss:le...l Eke txtraordinat y spectacle of a Member feeling it his duty to present a petition, but strenuously ar gumg against its being received. It this petition yin. fated any rule, why not state specifically both the sole and the violation. He understood it to be con genial to the Censtitution and character of the House to rave ur the admission of petitions against public prtivances. This doctrine of implication was doubt dangerous. He understood this rule, to di reit that no petition shall be received against any theat.o:e.tctually pending in the Ways and Means of the year. But then such petition must pray directly aga insi a ny Legislative proceeding. He has read this petition,.and saw nothing in it sot ffensive as had been introduced into petitions on former occasions, which the House had not rejected on that account. fit: sug gested ,:tat the petition was not yet read, and that it , stdaild be read at length in the usuai way. .11 this übjeetion were ailowcil, the least mention of any ~nLatt-,.; ti..ancial measure would vitiate a petition.... ] Ie thoue,la it very unwise in Ministers to oppose this I.i:titian:, in a case same they were themselves made 1 1 aties, aril for his part, it on the rpposite bench, in the sante cireintsratices, he should rather vote for it. ti; r W. C t t KT l:; wished the Petition to be read. Mr. H. SUMNER against any technical oh. jection to ae petition. He wished that it should be tlntr, , ,lit up and read, and thiught that the Property- Tax wa-, tut incidentaiq trentionei. Mr. Si't.../..KER sta!:-.1, that any Honourable I.le.tr.:;el who Urescltit:(l a petition was bored to state the st.h.,ta,.ce of it, but that to have it ze:td tally it Plu lit be brought up and put into the hands of the cie.k :It toe With regard to the rule, he con cetved it to aj... r ly to ail fazes pending before the I i false. The put;tion was then brctight up without a divi. sion, 1;y it:: Chi k. at the table. Si .. .EAKER pit the questiun—That the yeti. fait cn die teb!e. The CIiANCEI.I.OR of the EXCHEQUER I sAid, that now the flow:- had heard the petition read at there c , alld nut be, he conceived, doubt as to its reAl obj:ct. The tact was, that them no) irrito.ekiiate er fur any oject, but the Pro. itaty Tax allud,:et to as any whir matter th H would app. v 0 the 11,liost to Hie tendency of estabn.hing such a prc:) - dri:t. this were allowed, this important tune alydit ;:e• evaded in future without the leas, diffn ABERCROMBIE said, that whether the opii:ton expic . ssed by the petitioners of that nous, was well or ill founded, it was cert,:iilly true dia. the }louse had manifested a greater disregar d bums trove its Coustituents tiding ihi ?meat Ses- r • 4 I 1 1 , • • Is d ?!,•• • d • / 1 1 d, s r • , sion than •at any formelr period. He trusted the lions, would not give a colour to the imputation, by rejecting a petition evidently having for its object to avert the calamities of war. 'Mr. Serjeant BEST said; that a petition couched in 1 menage so disrespectful should not be received from the City of London, or any other place. MI knew that the charge of corruption ag tinst the House was false and infamous. It was not decent in the City of London to cast so gross an imputation. If so gross a libel were permitted to pass from such a rl ice as London, there would be no end to such libels from ether places. I S:r FRANCIS BURDETT said, the main and declared object of the petition was a censure of the conduct of Ministers, and to avert, if pos,ible, the horrors of a war, both unjust and unpromising, into which this country was on the eve of being precipi tated by its Government. He trusted the. House would not countenatr:e the charge of corruption con veyed in the petition, by rejecting it from the table. Mr. P. GRENFELL requested that the first pa ragraph of the petition should be read, which was accordingly done. (It set forth in substance, that in consequence of the corrupt state of the representa tion, a marked disregard had been shewn to petitions front London and other places, and that dime was no sympathy between the House of Commons and the people.) He (Mr. P. Grenfell) should vote against a petition which contained matter so grossly untrue--(Thar, hear.)_ Mr. LYTTLEToN voted against it as a dan gerous precedent. Mr. S. WORTLEY trusted the good sense of the House would receive the petition. Mr. LOCKHART was against it. Mr. Alderman ATKINS said, the sentiments in the petition were not those of the majority of the Livery, but only of a few who had often before com municated their sentiments to the House. He shou1:1 therefore, though he totally dissented from it, not object to its lying on the table. The Property. Tax was but incidentally mentioned, and it was bei.eath the dignity of the House to notice it. Mr. Alderman C. SMYTH was against receiv- ing it. Mr. PRESTON said, it must be received as the petition of the Livery, and voted for its lying upon the table. Mr. H. SUMNER objected to the petition, on tht ground that the first paragraph was false and scan dalous, not upon any point of formality. He vat tended that upon the great questions that had come before the House during this Sessitm, the petitions of the people had been respectfully attend;:d to. Mr. W. SMITH thought the House was bound on the present occasion, to follow established prece dents, and to make a new one to tu.'et the ere b. tore them. All petitions for a Parliair.entary - t•,rm must proceed, en the supposition tart the of the representation was trot what it ourhtt to ; and there'was a petition on the joarinilt: he read an extract) expressed tit bo stronger lan guage than the one now before them, asserting tha; the House were neither faithful Euardians, not tau: refrescntatives of the people. Mr. BARING stat!l, that the r.:,,urids originall : urged against rcceivii•i2; the petition had now hem; -abandoned, and the Erq words of it hasi hem to.' holt,i ot. There wete ninumerable precedents on the Journal; of petitions e::pressing the neces,,4y of a ciiiini;e of the repretrraotion, and no objection hid ever been urged to, :heir being received, r would any objection have I.rolvlbly !wen started on t.tc pre sent occasion, had Lot the words been coupled with a censure on Ministo F. Mr. BATHU RS L' in a few words contended, that the petition ought trot to be received. A division took place, when the numbers were — For receiving the Petition 59 Azainst it 10,1 NAPLES. Upon our re-admission into the gallery, we found Mr. HomyEß stating that he had given notice•of a motion for to-morrow on the subject of the negotiation that had been carried on with the present Sovereign of Naples, and tvhich, as be regarded them concluckd, were a fit subject for Parliamentary inquiry. Bat as it was possible that the discussion might have been resumed, or might still continue, he was desirous to know if any inconvenience to the public servi.:_ would arise from his motion, as he had no wish to enxbarras his _►Majesty's Ministers. Lord CASTLEREAGH saw no objection to the motion bring brought forward, though he would not pledge himself as to the line of conduct he might deem it expedient to adapt. INSOLVENT DEBTORS. Mr. BENNETT wished to ask Ministers if any successor had been appointed to the late Seijeant Palmer, as he had been given to understand that upwards of eighty persons were now detained in gaol on account of no Judge having been appointed fur the Insolvent Debtors Court. I.Ord CASTLEREAGH was unable to answer the question, but conceived the eel.ty to pioce2d.trom the with to make a proper appointment. Mr. WILIsERFORCE said, that the sooner the appointment was made it would be the better for the • In 1692, an aid was s.tanted by l'acliament form tying on the war, similar in every respect to the Pro. perty Tax, excepting only the Army and Navy. The pay of a Lieutenant• Colonel was then 17s. per diem die same as now, while Sir G. Shuckburgh had com puted that eight shillings in 170'3 were equivalent to a pound sterling now; The pay of a Captain had then been 1 Is. it was now 10s. 61 A stock purse was also then divided among the Captains, of the value of from 880 to £lOO, as £2O was then allowed for evet y hundred men, and only now for six huu dred. With respect to the Colonial service, a dif ference of £5OO had been known to hive been given on what was not worth more than £1500; and from £5OO to 81000 had been given for an exchange horn colonial service to any other. Civil officers in the colonies were not liable to this tax, nor was the ad vmaennt aaete all to e q uivalent latter. Upon Government a nest t a o bl t i hf sh reo m inh e a n rt t dhsi if ilt: l ox o f o: i : : men the amount was only 8780 per annum, and upon ac hundred battalions not more re5S,OOO. To an offi cer sent out to any of the colonies the price of a cabin was £5O, whereas £2B only was received for his expense, and the ,whole cost was nearly equal to £lOO. On the subject of the Navy, an Honourable Admiral, who sat near him, and was to second the motion, would state the case far more accurately than he could possibly pretend to do. He should therefore move—" That it be an instruction to the Committee to introduce a clause to exempt from the operation of the Property Tax, Officers in the Arn/ and Navy actually mustered for foreign service., and not otherwise." Sir C. M. POLE seconded the motion, and stated, that many of the observations of the g ,,fhtit General were equally applicable to the Navy as to the Ai my ; he was, however, rather inclined to recommend an increase of pay, and a reduction of expeu•c in some departments, which might easily be effected, particu• Italy in the case of superannuation. In the arro priation of half pay much liberality had been sliewn by Government, though the half pay had been made to come too near the full pay. In the case of pur sers, they were the same, and the difference was only ad. on that of a Lieutenant. The present motion did not go far enough. • General GROSVENOR concurred most heartily in the proposition of the gallant Mover. General HARVEY also supported the motion ; and bore testimony to the merits of the officers in the military t Tvice. lhe CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER expressed his readiness to do any thing which could tend to the benefit of a class of persons to whom the ration was so 11:11;031 indebted as the Officers of the Navy and Army ; but he civic! not consent to the motion. The Right Honourable Gentleman rained to the difference of service at the time to which the (:•2rieral alluded. at which the Officers did not receive halfpay. He admitted, th it in r sprct to COIOIIIII service, some allowances were granted. The insufficiency of allowances to officers on their passage lonne, was a fitter subject for the considera tion of the head of the Military Department than Puritattient. He thought it would be placing Ceose officers in an iuvitiious point of view to exempt in preference to persons in other classes in society.— lie tnigiit mention many professions who might have eiaims, if the Army and Navy were selected. iestance, the interior Clergy, whgse incomes were tint so permanent. There were oilier professions' equally precarious in respect so incomes with the in terior Cie ryy. The Right lon. Gentleman stated, that move an instruction to Cie eommittee, when this motion was disposed of, that the Property. tax for the present year should be take', upon the assessment of the last year. This ws a proposition which had conic recommended to him iron many Taarters. The Right Hon. Gentlemen then reverted back to the immediate vont tnider diseussi and admitted that the suggestion thrown out by the gal lant Admiral (Sir C. Pole) deserved eunsiderat _too ; but observed, that it uvula come more properly un der the view of Parliatnent Wilco, tile 'votes upon the subject of the Army and Navy were undei discussion, and nut when mixed with celiatetat and distinct subjects. Mr. Serjeant ONSLOW agreed in the statements of the Hon. Mover, and was oi °plow i, that so me ritorious a class of persons as il,e Oilicers of the Navy and Army were entitled to so:lie consideration. The loss to the Public, in respect to exemption from the tax, would be trifling ; and, therefore, he thought the nation would h.: honoured, it Parliament adopted the motion. Lord PALMERSTON apprehended, that a mis t conception had gone forth in respect to Officers serving abroad. They were better off than those serving at home. They received vatious benefits on foreign service which they were precluded tront at home—such as quarters, forage:, and lodgings. nut, on the subject to which the Honourable General more particularly wished the attention of the House to be drawn, he coincided with his Right Honourable Friend in the statements which he had made. If a distinction WAS to be made, Officers at home were more entitled to consideration then those serving abroad. Mr. ABERCROMBIE was disposed to vote against the motion, for the reasons stated by the last Speaker, and on the ground of the Tax being of a temporary nature. Mr. FURBLS had known many instances of loud :hips suffered by some of the Naval Officers in India, particularly in respect to their drawing Bills upon " England, which placed them in the disagreeable pie-, .6e-4:tient of obtaining not more than 1 If f their pay. The Honourable Gentleman noticed the hard-• 1 ships of the Petty Officers iu taking up sl in Ie• turn for their bibs. Mr. RUSE expressed his readiness to lelid his .is. sistance in redressing those hat dships, whit hi use Hon. Gentleman complained. Ri l gl o g r . d ii M on l . L G T t O nt N kn es i . , i t s n hed to to ti c ie all L t . h ir e d it ", t h t , e i i; : tio ui n of m , e,t, :i i i i nl ia l i t g o t:O r : ed li n g ia t k h e ei s r o ‘ n v i ' e lg a e l s tt f : o ra r t s O l Zi s u i i i i t r .t a u t. l t t i ' t!e h . end" tu condition Pk th o Y a f g S re u e b d alt vi el i a t i l °icer s the gaitant G eneral, r '' equireit some Amendment : but he could na egree that those iert4ce were in a worse situation than t!!ose at ho l m., who were often obliged to sit down in a country town, sith a large family, upon seloo or • J l / 4 a General GASCOYNE replied. year. The motion was then put and regativ&l. Mr. GR EWE LL proposed a e i se y of it was to impose on she Commissioners for the fairs of Taxes the same instructions as ate at pieseii: riven to the Commissioners un der the Act, i.spc‘t. mg the vec recy to be observed, 3 tc. The CHANCELLOR. of the EXCHEQUE!! ( thought the alteration w ould lead to ~,,reat nience. They could not be restrained 'tom tenant: wi& the different Courts; nor did he in the course of the present yea r an y one ease of closure could occur to make it rece ss tr y to adopt tl amendmeat of the Honour able (len:Leman. lief.: not heard of any cases of abuse of in respect that part of the provisions of the 1;11i to which o Honourable Gentleman's clause referred. Mt. BAKING denied that secrecy could at ail i: conven i en ce the operation of tl.e Act ; and t!..: he wished the Right HonourableGentlemari t., c , plain the matter. lie suppo r t II ai,ditthiegim:lfiitomn.. ht: Mi. USKISSON opposed 11. e clause, or same lle ..4 g, w ro n u o n dms material statediai grkvity is to ari.e ii ~ c pe,Mt of view, to.. lyer:lt;on 'fax ter one year. Mr. ISENNLTT asked, whether Gentleman had any oratit of appeal as was granted to the a l ),.elltvits Asst.sscci 'faxes ? The CH.NNCEI.I.OR of the FXCHF.I4 . I. ohsei ca d, that tile would pandit; no: 4 as :11 the oply tor one year. Mr. Will I'll lt D could not hear, , prio., the repeated answers the R ight f ;ontleinau to all suggestit us of imp:kali, !nett, s that . the,Tax was only for a year. The (haute: Honourable Friend on;tlit to pass, to prevent Conanksioners fron making an visidit,us l~rie.lJ ranter they .iusw•er cJ rite Right 110)4. Co:utieir, Was a mere tiChni ,, ll. It was idle to sc Hose that t 'fax would not be renewed year at ter year. W respect to dieclosure-, there were serious objeci to such a naritle of conduct in dr.: Commissioneis, lie should support the clause. He thought, with in pruning, the tax might be rendered less objecti particularly if the inquisitorial powers were aim iLht Mr. GRENFELL stated the circumstances induced him to propose the clause. A friend of was travelling, in a common stage-coach, to Otto, and a Commissioner of taxes pointed out to his hit the house of a gentleman on the road, whose into, he said, let:) considerably abridged. The CHANCELLOR. of the EXCHEQL observed, that the Commissioner alluded to was last person who should have made any disclJs; hut he believed he had explained the matter t.) Honourable Gentleman. Mr. GRENFELL said, the explanation was from satistactory to him. Mr. W. WYNNE supported the motion. lie no idea of sparing the feelings of the Commissai: when Magistrates were compelled to tal7e an on secrecy. Mr. LUSHINGTON suggested, that the mi was unneeeso.r) . , AS tite old attetstne,nt w..t.1 be criterion tor th it of the present year, and no new at.sure could he made. Mr. LYTTLETUN supported the claive. was surprised that any ci!iiection to it shou:d ; after the case mad' out by his Hon. I tieuJ. out it to the Rigsit Hot.. Gentlenoiii r., say, whit this case, g.)!I:g forth to ti.e would tart in; them with an ilea, that Goveriiminit i.isheat lion the bad co:seiuct of the Commissioner thought he ought to be dismissed his maze. The CHANCELLOIt of the LXCHEQ' defended the conduct of the Conti - nit...loner ; stated, that the conversation arose in respect to proceedings in a Court of Law. Toe CldeSe was agreed to. Mr. PROTHEROE moved, that it be art tion to the Committee to make tegulati ontrnul the Inspectors in making vexattoui charges. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCIIEQ' said, aim , st all li.vectors would tie done With ;a. consequatoiy, we evil ~uo woulo he very niece. tai-eon shed. achrito: there had been some cases ot grievous Imi:4:to willed toe Honourable Get.tiemaa w 'uhf his amendment, as tie intended to pro ,- , se aan which he thought would do away these voi. surcharges altogether. Mr. BA RC: LAY thought, after what the Hon. Gentleman had said, it was of little ii ance whether the amendment was pressed or not Inspectors were interested in the surcharges, 1: 1 people had a tight to be relieved from them. Mr. LOCK HART thought it absolutely net that some check should be put on the surchai these Inspectors. He wished to know the al meat which the Chancellor of the Eschequi [Laded to propose on this subject. lie con; that those in the higher branches of commel not pay a lair propos non tit taxes, which ma..ii tall heavier on the middling tradesmen, for the commetce of the country paid but three nail the Property-Tax. Lord MILTON thought the Right Him* Gt.OI.ICMAII was practi,ing a delusion on the o in saying that it was l.) be a telliptil.ir) nit: only one year's duration. For his w it tie doubt but that this Tax would be coiitit.ues number of years. Mr. KlS Jlnan's plan°eNisaid,l'e understood at th : Honourable Gentleman's Slitiklltl be charged more than he was last pr. 411,er some further conversetion between the Cs LLt" of the ExcaLovent, Mr. W. N-miril, at IoYTTLEVINI Mr. 111t01116KOE witnalicev nts Went. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEI 111-dyed, that it should be an instiucuini to 111 mittee, that the Assessments made, or to di I.n - lb.: yt:nr the .itit ut .Apt ii, basis of tilt Assioisinents tux the current year the PropAty Tax. Mr. J. :) . .VIIT I cbjected m this "I'.,x oeinq in all its ottormities, and witlt;iut o ne attune The macron was then agrettl to. to we C.:trusuo..-e to rnakt ,, such amenoura.r. Lord MILTON moved , t n.o it be as A.N. as they itii 6 nt judge itece ,, urV• LW , noose Jctt— Noes I:A—Majority to 7. The Fioux then went e'lito COlUnliC!‘:?. PROTIATY TAX. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER having moved the or(!e. of the day for tlic lions( going into a Committc" t n the Property Tax, General GASCOY NE, pursuant to notice, rose to move t!:at officers in tIA arm); and navy, when on foreign service, should he ("sculpted front the opera tion of the tax. There were two kinds of service in cluded wider the head of foreign ; active service it the field, and colonial scrvice abroad. From the state of the exchange, the tax bore very hard upon officers Let ving abroad, the smallness of their allowance being eutuid(red. Tu enable him to take the field, and to provide clothes and camp equipage, a Subaltern wa, ' ()lily iillov•ed RS 15'. and a Captain £W2, and with this sn.all 5 , 411 a Sa::alrein had to purchase what . ..vuold amount. to and a Captain what noold c-nie to 480. To temedy this, C;)vernment liatl y,tv.Ai two months pay in advance, while the army was generally from tour to sis month, in arrears. L. he Penni:AA a 'nide valid nut be procured for les: than from a hundred to two hundred dollars, alter ;se an officer •,..tht leave his baggage `behind. The xchange at present was '25 per cent: against this cowl try, and al9ii i ; with the Property-tax amounied to a decluaion of 35 . pei cent. !root the pair of ai'officer it .t. :# le to 1 1 :e tl.-; Lit vI7. rc Ili tr. 5 1 1 Cit . A• s te, g C ti• A{ LIS ,wd s • ume, • • S'jit tl.e 1 is fir c lid Intim; te be the art 4, nprot w it )UE R it; ; ) t.stru; ce iwn 11 SSr 2uvi It , rc li. • -1 Righ Ot. 1 1.: ?C65 3 ! 41 1 [ tier ittende ICe k;: Se tlii IC w 13 ., ilicr.s I It our t. coU:1 1 : 17.tJ I led I` )r . 11 tt ,t- NI!• 1. n. l c: 41- t ll -': a 1 Ati , ‘• . ,L• Ws' A j• " 41-, 4Lt UI • ten ` 1 . 1: .1311