Star. — London, England, 1815-06-01 00:00:00

4 1 • , IL ": 14 4 ,t.. I . t 111 '.• ,o 1 ti PARLIAMENT4R r PROCEEDINGS. HOUSE OF LORDS, MAY Si. Mr. SHIPDKN, Registrar of Dover Harbour, presented An nual Accounts rrlative thereto. The Irish Assessed Taxes Bill was read the second tune, and ordered to be committed to-morrow. The Earl of I AUDERDiILS gave notice, that be should on Thursday sole:night , move for the second reading of the Bill for abolishing the mode of punishment by the Pillory, provided the state of health of the Noble and Learned Lord, who usually oc• eupieJ nhe Woolcaph,. would admit of his. attendance; if not, be shc k uid propose a farther postponement. 'Their Lordships then adjourned tiU to-morrow. HOUSE OP COMMONS. The is of MAN Lighthouse Bill was read a third time, and pawed; and Mr. Hu iNISSON was directed to carry the same to the lords. On the motion of Mr. HUSKISSON, the House went Into a Committee on the Windsor Forest Bill; when the Resolutions were agreed to, and the Report was ordered to be received to morrow. • A Petition was presented In favour of Einancipation, from the Catholics of the County of Galway. The Scotch Game and Fish Preservation Bill was, after a few words from Mr. Fl NLA Y, oered to be read a third time on Imlay neat. Upon the motion of Mr. ROSE, the House proceeded to a Committee on the White Herring Fishery Bill. Several of the clau•es. were - itrongly contested by Mr. FINLAY. At length, after some farther remarks, during which the Bill was read pa- ragraph by paragraph, Sir J. NEWPORT rose, In order to remind the House that business of more importance remained to be considered by them. Ms ROSE replied, that he had already deferred the- Bill on account' of the Right Honourable Baroaet's motion for inquiring into the Fees of the Irish Courts...-(4f laves I-1f the Bill did not go on, the fishery was at an eud ; as it must commence on the 24th of June, and the parties most concerned were waiting to ascertain what was to be done. Mr. D. GIDDY made a few observations s in the hope of end ing the discussitin. • After some farther mantis from Mr. PINLAT, Mr. Rosa, Mr. W. Starrii, Mr../„ . P.lsaeht, and Sir J. NawroaT, the Resolutions were repotted, and the Report was ordered to be 'received to-morrow. • Mr. J. SMITH. presented a Petition from the inhabit:an, of Nottingham and its vicinity, against the restoration of the Bourbons, through the medium of war. „This Petition was read at length, and prayed the'House. to Withhold its Subsidies, from foreign Powers, for the present War. Ordered to lie on the 'Fable. Lord CASTLEREACH rose to request an Honourable Officer (General Gascoyne) to postpone his motion for erecting a Monu ' meat to General Pakenhain, in order that Government might take time to consider of the precedents that were submitted to them in favour tit erecting the same. General GsV:COYNE at once acquiesced in the suggestion of Lord Castierea,, ,, !l. I.lr. B: BATHURST rose for the purpose of moving for leave to bring in a P.lll to enable the Select Committee on the Down va_trickElection to re-assemble, and for suspending the issue of Warrants relating to the same. Some conversation now took place between Mr. TIERNEY, and the Cua NCR r.o aof the Exen IR, relating toMr. Ruth ven's Petition, concerning the Downpatrick Election; after which, his Petition was ordered to lie on the-Table. Mr. WESTERN gave notice, that he should on Tuesday next move for leave tO bring in, a Bill to exempt all Wool of British • groWth from the payment of Auction Duties. • BANK NOTES STAMP DUTY. Mr. P. GRENFELL rose to move for certain papers relative to the issue of bank-notes by the Bank of England, and, in duing so, took a review of the s' profits Which are made by the Bank on its issues, and what it paid to the public with respect to the stamp - duty paid on the notes of the Bank of Eng. land. Previous to the restriction on cash payments, a composition was paid by the Bank, by way of stamp duty on their notes, and the sum paid by then at that time was 12,000. In 1797, one-pound notes were issued, anti it was' then provided that each note should pay 21—One million five hundred thou. sand pounds in one pound notes was then issued, snaking a whole issue of about 412,000,000; and they then agreed to raise their composition to 424,000. Since that time the issue of paper had increased enormously, and was last year not less than SO mil lions ; it might now be taken at 27 millions, yet by the' composition, as in every other case, a palpable advantage had been giVen to the Bank oyes the pub. tic. To remedy this evil was the object of the pre sent motion. He should, in concluding, move for certain accounts of the issue of Bank Paper, and farther propose that the Bank should yearly make re turns of its issues, by which returns the composition in Stamp Duty might be regulated. The Honour. , able, entlethan then entered into an examination and calculation of the sums which the duty on the Bank Circulation would amount to; and which, he said, on notes under 420, 'would amount to not less than 4100,000; instead of which no more than 432,000 bad ever been paid ; and thus the Bank annually withheld from the public a sum of 468,000 in this one iteit. of duty on notes under 420. The Ho nourable Gentleman contended. that the - Bank per formed no service towards the public which entitled them to this advantage ; and concluded by moving for " An Account of' the Amount of Bank of Eng. land Notes in circulation on.the Ist and 15th days of every month, from the Ist of June, 1814, to the let of April, 1815, inclusive. And also for an account of the amount of 11Cank.post Bills, in different pe riods of 1813, 14, and 15. Mr. MELLISH replied, and thought it would be long before these accounts could be altogether ' supplied. Mr. TIERNEY made a few observations on the motion. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER. did .not intend to oppose the motion of the Honour. able Gentleman. He conceived that he (Mr. Gren. fell) knew as much of the affairs of the Bank as he did. Mr. MELLISH explained. • Mr. PONSONBrdid not know any thing about the time du...accounts would require in making out, but certainly he thought they ought to be made out some time or other. Mr. GRENFELL .was mach surprized ar the Right Honourable Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) a . retains him of understanding the affairs of Banks better than he did. He did not be. hey', he knew more, or anything like so much ;*but he bad sufficient information upon the subject to in duce him to desire more. The motion was then agreed to, and the papers ordered. Mr. GItENFELL then moved, " That the House should on Wednesday next go into a Committee of the whole House, to consider the 'rate of composi tion paid by the Bank of England, in lieu •of the Stamp Duty." • The CHANCELLOR Of the EXCHEQUER, and Mr. Tinitxty, made a few observations on 'the mction. • Mr. WARD .aw no reason why the House should 'not go into a Committee now, and not consider on the' notice hf its gOihg into one. The CHANCELLOR "of the .ENcIiEQUEIt thought there was no reaso4 for R revisal of the Ac counts of the Bank. Mr. HORNER said, it was strange to him that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should so express himself, and he thought a revisal absolutely necessary. Mr. BARING did nut think Much opposition would be thrown in the way of the present measure on the part of the Ministry, but he thought it ought to be treated with a litde more temper than had been shewn by the House on many measures of late. Still, he considered it very singular of the Honourable Member to move, that the House go into a Commit tee en Wednesday nett, when he had so little infor mation on the subject. Mr. GRENFk.LL said, there Was information enough to enable him to perceive that the Bank of England ought to pay at least three times the amount of the composition now paid in lieu of Stamp Duties. Mr. FORBES had been informed that the Bank of England paid a farthing for what the country bankers paid sixpence. The House then divided, when there were— For the motion - 43 Apinst it 63 Majority apinst the motion 40* On the question that the Report of the Committee of Supply be received, and taken into farther con sideration, Mr. Timm, the CHANCELLOR of the ExcuxQues, and Lord CASTLEREAGH, made a few observations ; after which the Resolutions of the Committee were agreed to. On the motion of Sir JOHN NEW.POItT, account of certain fees payable to the Lord Chan•' cellor, on Commissions and various offices in Ire land, amongst which was included that of the Cleric of the Crown and Hanaper, was ordered to be laid on the table. GRANT TO THE PRINCE REGENT. . • Lord ALTHO RP thought the subject of what he was going to move a case which required the atten tive consideration of the Hose. He feared that he was but ill qualified for •the task he had undertaken of•bringing such * question before the House, but he hoped for their candid hearing and indulgence. His motion was for a Committee to inquire into the mode in which the 4100,000 granted to the Prince Regent on his accession to the Regency had been expended. The House, he thought, must feel itself interested in wishing for an explanation on this subject. The House had not certainly been legally apprised - of the amount of the debts of his Royal Highness; but still, as that money was paidinto the hands of the Com. missioners for that purpose, to defray the debts of the Prince of Wales, he did not think it proper that it should have been used for any other purpose. All his Royal Highness's debts should have been paid by that sum, from 1785 to the 18th of February, 1812, nor should any part of it have been employed on the grand preparations before the holidays. He did not think the whole of the money had been employed in paying off the debts of his Royal Highness, and he had been partly confirmed in his opinion by a state ment made by the 'first Minister of the Crown. He conclucled by moving " That the House should go into a Committee to inquire into the application of the Atoom At ranted w the Prhice Regent ohs his ambition to the Regency, by an Act passed in the 51d year of hk Majesty's rolgn, for the purpose of defraying the debts of hi s Royal Highness. Lord CASTLEP.EAGH said that a question of inquiry was always received with favour in that House; but however that might be, he Should wish the House to consider, from circumstances which he bad to detail, whether there was such a case of pre sumptive pledge on the disposal of this money as to make an inquiry necessary ? The Noble Lord (Al. thorp) had endeavoured to rouse the vigilance of the House by a very strong ' trim fade case—that there -bad been a large sum of the public money wasted. He wished that the House would not be led away by that general sweeping observation. He shodld en. deavour to sheer, that. instead of there being any pre sumptive blame attached to the Commissioners, or to whatever persons the payment of his Royal High ness's debts were entrusted, the expenditure had not been nearly so great as those of former reigns ; and that, instead.of the people's making any additional sa crifices, they had had a considerable boon and relief from the Crown. This would, be seen by a compari son of'the Civil List in this and in former reigns. He should endeavour to chew them, from documents which he was in possession of, that the present ex penditure was very much lees than those of former reigns.— Mr. TIERNEY interrupted the Noble Lord, by saying, that no person ought to argue from a paper which was not already before the House. The SPEAKER had never heard of a rule which hindered a Member from reading extracts from any document which was not before the House. He had frequently heard the question discussed in that House, but had never heard of a rule upon the subject. Mr. WHITBREAD said that the Civil List Pa pers Were in the hands of the Committee ; he wished to know whether . the Noble Lord was a Member of that Committee ? If he *was not, he wished to know how the Noble Lord got possession of the paper of what right he had to read any one of them ? • Mr. B. BATHURST thought that Lord Castle reagh had a right to read the paper. That paper he WAS about to read had never been presented to the Douse ; so that the question was, whether it Was pro pertor a Member to read a paper which had not been laid on the table of the House ? Mr. HORNER was very. sorry that the House had been made, on some occasions, little better than a channel or conduit for the passage of papers from the Bar to the Upper House. The eyes of the Mem bers had been shut—a seal had been put upon the pa pen that were passing through, There were ac counts—they must not • see what were in these ac counts. He wished to know if be himself was justi fied in reading a paper which he bad moved for , __ and which had been rejected by the House ? The Noble Lord, - he conceived, was going to pull a paper horn , his pocket, containing some information; which pa. per it was not, he considered, proper for him to read. Lord. CASTLEREAGH said, he was not going to pull a paper gut of his pocket, but to give the House the information they required, from papers which would shortly be laid before them What good would it do to the House if he were to with hold the information from them which they required? If the House had had these pipers, which they appa rently wished to have bad s it woitla certainly have . . • been .needless in Mm to attempt to give theta inlet oration they must have possessed already. Mr. WHI'VBREAD wished to know whether that paper was froni amongst those referred to the Com mittee on the Civil List? If it was, he should take the feast of the Hoes upon the propriety of the No• ble Lord's reading it. Lord CASTLERAGH did not think that the argument of the Hon. Member at all - narrowed- his right, but said he would give the Hon. Member (Mr. Whitbread) the satisfaction which would enable him to sit quiet. He when said, that the 'paper Wllt not one of those which had been referred to the Com. mittee of the Civil List. The Noble Lord 'remarked, the expenditure had amounted in the present reign to upwards of 51 millions, 'whereas, in former reigns it• had been upward) of 67 millions.- Upon the whole, his Lordship skewed that the present expen diture of the Crown was less than that of former reigns by £15,876,000. The Crown enjoyed mverall sources of revenue not under the controul of Patna-. meat, such as' the Droits of the Admiralty, and the revenue from the West Indies, a great . portion of which was given up by it to the Public, and in con sequence a great saving made to it. What .he wish ed was, that a prejudice may not go rth against the Crown. when he had shown that by its economy several millions had been saved to the country. He contended, that the words of the Act of Parliament were, that the sum of ieloo,ooo,votecL by it•should be expended in such a way as ens most convenient to support the dignity of the Prince Regent on tite assumption of the Regency. As'to what had beeni said by the Noble Lord, of 44 outfit," no such word was. in the Ait ; and if he were to trace the history of that word, lie would not have to go very far back into the debates in that House. In the sense in which that word was taken - at the time of the gram it meant no more than a sum necessary to cover the expenses incident to the assumption of Royal au thority, considered antecedently as well as prospec tively. The question at that time was, as to the was ture of the expenditure, taken in that view. For a long time before the Pt ince of Wales. had assumed the Regency, he had deemed ,k 70,000 per annum. of his income, which was 4120,000, to the payment of his debts. and the income of the Princess of Wales, and he only reserved 850,000 per annum for the support of his rank ; but on the assumption of the Royal power, he had been obliged to give op that system of. economy, auit to enlarge his expenditure in horses, carriages, dec. The great fete which was given on his assumption of the Regency was es tremely expensive—he believed it was more . than &NAV ; yet, for this, he received no remuneration from the country, nor would he accept of it whilst the restrictions lasted. The £lOO,OOO then, which had been voted, aid been to cover these expences as well as those which might be incurred. In order to support the argument of the Noble Lord, it would be necessary to separate the Prince as Regent from the Prince of Wales, for if the Prince of Wales was to have been fitted out for the assumption of the Royal authority withoit the aids which his emolu-' ments es Prince of Wales afforded 'him, it would have put the country to an infinitely greater expense. It would have required a sum greater than he would mention, and to which the 4100.000 already grant ed would be bat as a drop of water. But, in-con sequence of his having used his emolument as Prince . of Wales to support his dignity as Regent, and at. ter wards having given up that emolument when he had begun to receive that of the Prince Regent, he had saved the country a sum which .they coeld not demand from him, and which only his own sense of economy dictated. The £lOO,OOO which had been voted went among several credittirs to whom his Royal Highness had been indebted ; .but those debts had only been contracted from the time of his being, appointed Regent to that of his having got rid of the restrictions. When he had got rid of these restric tions, he gave up' his income as Prince of Wales, with the exception of a small portion which he had placed in the hinds of Commissioners to pay off some debts which he had previously incurred ; awl orders had been given to those Commissioners not to pay any debts which had been contracted previously to his assumption of the unrestricted power as Re gent. Bur he contended, 'that it was the same whe• they the sum of £100,0(0 which had been granted to him was applied for the payment of former or re cent expences ; for if it went to pay former debts, that part df his revenue as Prince of Wales which had been left for that purpose would be the sooner redeemed and carried to the Consolidated Fund; and if it were to pay the debts which wets incidental to the assumption of the Royal Authority, it would be the same for which the Noble Lord opposite had said it was granted. He concluded by stating, that'in the part which his Royal Highness had acted, in giving up his income as Prin'ce of Wales, he not on ly acted with justice, but with generosity and lib.. rality to the country ; and he hoped the House, with; that feeling, would. defend from the imputation which an assent to the present motion would tend to cast on him. Mr. TIERNEY wished to strip the question of the variety of matter, and complicittiOn - ot detail; iq which it had been involved by the Noble Lord. The real question was, whether The £loo,ooo had been voted in conlormity to the Act ? He denied that the Prince was at any increased expense during the Year of his restricted Regency 1 and 'he would ask,. was it a decent argument of the Noble Lord to suggest that the Prince of• Wales should sell his wine' and hire hii furniture to. the Prince Regent? He (Mr. Tierney) had no doubt the Prince Wour is t t th he e fi rrinc w e hdaiscvela!mrigirtoa seprlioceehisdpirnogp.ertßy,utan e m it•, gested by the Noble Lord; Ijad not Carlton Hot*, and every thing belonging to it, been made Royal property by the Parliamentary arrangement for pay ing his Royal Highness's debts ? The Right Hon. s G w en er tk of ina lK i r n . e g u te P y7Sec ed tta t r o y li t n o im th a t e Tru n s o tees n die , who had applied this sum, and described it as a deliberate p im ri p a t tion opria h te a d d b b een f insult to the House, This sum, he coatendeu, WAS AC :lo a ba P e i l l. li a af r h f i en g t b i t ie r a H.ndou ge th a t quarter, shut iin th i e its y eyes to such a 'violation could no longs:- visit With merited reprehension the same niscontiuu in persons of an humbler descrip tion, He looked upon it as a sillyearc e trat, that horses, carriages, furniture , must have purchas. ed far the Prince Regent. Did the Noble Lord mean to say that his kto)rsti Highness was not provided :with those articles before he was called to exercl4 the royal functions, or that the Prince Regent mut purchase them from the Prince of Wales ? It wa s sways his (Mr. Tierney's) wish, that his R0y.41 saabgihynewsisth a. 's yidebtsowlsehobuitvildabeg.4pa4eider,etin, vi order that h e rn might assume the reins of Government it twit w h ou L i s d toyal mind perfectly at ease. But Ministers then sesented any. discovery of the state of his affairs, pro. be in their power to reveal, and also to atone for their conduct to his Royal Highness in 1795, by their be at • a time lchen be had it in hi: • power to give them places. The present case w a s certainly one that Called for inquiry, and the Com. missioners ought to be examined as to the mod e (,f the application of the £CIOO,OOO, which he believer' would be found to be the work of a cabal. If a:- examination should not take place, the people o . England would say that the House was wholly iu different to the birchen of the people. though cad man wasasadato pay a tenth of his income. u rn the present question the character of the House eir;i mute at stake than upon any other—( Hear, hvr) as it would be said that those who should vote agiins inquiry were paying court to the Crown.--(11at hear.)—ln the resent state of she country every mar. should be convinced that he did not pay one farthini more than was indispensably necessity : all he want • ed was a CoMinittee ; bit not like that on the Civi List, most of the members bf which had been men i official situations. Should inquiry be refused, cusp, cibn would work .on the public mind, and coi,s, 'fluently do more mischief than any inquiry posit!): could do. Mr. LEACH could not adopt the conchtsien c• his Right Honourable Friend, nor did there exist th least •foundation for the charges. An Fknourabl Friend of his (Mr. Adam) had been concerned i this transaction, and no suspicion could attach to an , transaction in which he had borne a leading s h are ._ Though the question appeared to him to be a mute• of form, yet his vote should not depend on technic; reasoning ; as by the application that had been mad , of this money, not a shilling of expense had been curred beyond the intention of Parliament. A vet of Parliament proved that 417,000 of the sum ha been applied agreeably to the meaning of tI: vat.- - and the remaining 453,000 to liquidate outstandin: claims. It was of no consequence whether the but had been applied in the manner prescribed by Park meat, or to discharge claims that had been sanctione,. by Parliament.— (Hear, hear, from the Opfsabitic..).— jslow the application of £50,000 annually had bee.. sanctioned by Parliament to liquidate certain debt.. and by so much of the grant of £lOO,OOO havin:- been applied in that manner, a saving of £50,000 fo;- one year would take place. For these and vatiou other reasons he was decidedly against the mot.en. Mr.' W. WYNNE had never heard a speech th' was more directly against the privilege of Park meet, the commit of that House aver the public ms ney, and the very substance of the Constitution, tha that of the Honourable and Learned Gentleman %h hid just sat down—(Hear, hear.) 'The nature of the; .speech would have fully justified him in calling tit.: Honourable Gentleman to order—(Hear, hear.) Ai it was a high misdemeanour to apply money in an.: other way than that for which it hid been voted Is : - Parliament. Even money voted for the service of tl `Navy could not be applied to that of the Arm'. 'though perhaps equally necessary ; and by Act c• Parliament heavy penalties were imposed upon Officers of the Exchequer, if they should apply atone to any other purpose than that for which it Had bee . voted by the Houk. It had keen stated by tf. : last speaker, that the money had been applied to the discharge of debts for which Parliament was pledged ; bat that he denied s as the debts had never been rt ' cognised by Parliament, and could not be s', as they had been contracted in defiance of an Act of cite Lt gislature. The debts of nu Prince of Wales Wm; been so recognised, and those of Frederick Prince c: Wales had never been paid. He gave his cordhi assent to the motion. Mr. LONG contended that the }Nile had recog nised the debts, though they might not be pledged to the payment of them. The sum that had beet. granted by Parliament for the debts of the (riv:l List had been 43,213,000 ; and the sum that had been given by the Crown from its own funds sea: 42,828,000, and the difference betwixt these sunr was all that had been advanced by the public. T!'t Prince Regent had also, on succeeding tu the unre stricted Regency, considerably increased his esta blishment : he should vote against the motion. Mr. PONSONBY had telt much pain tru:n the present debate, and from the uncoustituuou speeches that had been delivered. By continued am: strenuous exertions that House had acquired the right of voting the public money, and controlling the lie expenditure against both the Crown and the House of Peers, and now it was attempted by the act of an officer to set at nought the privileges of that House. Parliament knew nothing of the Prince's debts ; but even bad they been sanctioned by the House, that would be no justification of such conduct as the pre. sent. For himself, he always wished that the Wine had known of the Prince's debts, and he was sure 'there could have been but one opinion as to the pre• priety of discharging them. The question had beta termed one of form; but it involved those rights for which our ancestors had fought and bled.—Heoi hear.)—When Charles I. could raise no more munch illegally, by means of prostitute lawyers and unprin• elpled judges, he came to Parliament and said, give me money and your own Commissioners shall mar .is. —(Hear.)—The conttoul over the public n! el 'in the bands of the House of Commons was art the very essence of the British Constitution, and the WA of our liberty. Had only 4100 been applied to the payment Of the Prince's debts, it•would have been violation of the Act, fol. it was the Princip le that vi e l to be looked to, and the violation of it be regard With un ratified reprobation. The'SOLICITOR GENERAL. c ontended, th a , the law had not been violated, and that thin been no misapplication to • call for a Committee, 'which in other words viduld be an unmerited censure on his Royal Highness the Prince Regent. mmadeit bir ttes.ord , ve & r. W oid i xa ßii, T E ho kii: v , :r a forfcoargseticafigemadintn-ino jottAteecbeeorn. • Mr. CA LCRArr conopieeil, tbautn.flattlyß Hipness the l'Xince ,Regent lad been tr ° c Y s a r l .; ed'b i hitianwat Oa sevetat loccisionS; but th i s 1 s 1~