Star. — London, England, 1825-03-30 00:00:00

• iT-r ••• :~ ~~- ^ ' - ''.. 4 777;Pqr7: 1 ar• _~„~ ; ••-• , he thought it improper to greet' the information askeo for respecting the island of Chapati% which was a pri vate transaction, and about which Government was in =tof very imperfect i dochasents. All the other Worms ele power was as the Hon. Member's service. After a few remarks from Mr. Hem and Mr. Wrap, the mo tion was put and carried. ADJOURNMENT OF THS HOUSE. Mr. Secretary CANNING, in a very low tone of voice, made ease observations respecting an Adjournment of the House, s tbe purport of which was, that the House would adjourn on Thursday, until Thursday the 14th April. JOINT STOCK COMPANIES. Mr. P. MOORE began by saying, that many attacks bad been made against the honesty and fair-dealing of the Joint Stock Campania, but as he belonged to se veral of them, be could say that they were as perfectly free from fraud as'any establishments that ever existed. lie was anxious to excite a discussion on the subject, and for this purpose he should bring in a Bill to modify the Act, generally called the Bubble Act. He would not occupy the House longer now, but would defer his remarks until the second reading. The Honourable Member concluded by moving for leave to bring in a Bin to amend the Act of 6th Geo. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said, that the Act in question related to a great many points not con nected with the objects alluded to by the Honourable Mover. That Act affected the rights and existence of two Corporate Bodies in London. He should, therefore, oppose the motion. Mr. P. GRENFELL agreed with the Learned Gen tleman, but he was ready to agree to any motion ftir the repeal of portions of the Bubble Act. It was ar. Act which had never been carried into execution, on account of its severe provisions, A Prince of the Blood was at the bead of one Company, and all the Bishops Directors of another,and the Bubble Act would intact on them the penalties of SpOninidos.l It was necessary to make some alteration in the Act. 1 Mr. ROBERTSON hoped the interests of the pea* might be consulted, as well as those of a Prince of the Blood and the Bench of Bishops. Mr. ELLICE was ready to consent to the first read ing. Liberal principles respecting trade had been expressed in both Houses of Parliament; but the alarm bad been sounded out of doors, and it was proper that the question should be set at rest. The Court of Chancery bad given rise to these alarms by the warnings and threats expressed there. He wished to know whether Government meant to interfere in the matter ? Mr. J.P. GRANT thought that some parts of the Act of George I. ought to be repealed, but the question was one of great difficulty. If the Act were repealed, he was not pre pared to say. hat would be the situation of the matter at common law. This was a motion which went too far, and it would be better to withdraw the motion. It was a question in every point of view most important. Mr. Secretary PEEL said, that the first seventeen clauses of the Act of George I. did not relate to the objects had in view by the Hon. Mtwer. The motion therefore was imperfect, and had better be withdrawn. Mr. H. GURNEY thought that some measure of legislation ought to be introduced relative to Joint &ock Companies ; and it would come with a better grace from die Right Hon. Gentleman opposite. Mr. P. MOORE said, he would gladly transfer the business into the hands of Governm•nt, but hitherto nothing had been done. All the Joint Stock Compa nies now existing might be most illegal, and capital to the amount of 250,000,0004 was affected. He wished that the subject might be discussed, and therefore he would change the words of his motion, in order to insure an examination into the subject. The lion. Member contended that all the Joint Stock Companies were as honest and upright as the Bank of England. Mr. HUME made a few remarks in favour of with drawing the motion. M - r, HUSKISSON said, it was very indecorous in any Hon. Member to bring forward a motion to repeal an Act with respect to which he was completely in ignorance. He had better wait till after the holidays, and acquaint himself with the sisiect in the meantime. Mr. P. MOORE then withdrew the motion. Sir H. PA RN ELL moved for leave to bring in a Bill to enlarge the powers of the Holyhead Road Act. After a few words from Mr. C. PELHAM the motion was granted. COMBINATION LAWS. Mr. HUSKISSON said that lie could not but feel the deepest regret on witnessing the effects of the Act of last Session for the repeal of the laws against com binations amongst workmen. In different parts of the country workmen had broken out into acts of great •iolence and outrage against the property of their masters, and he was afraid that this was in a great de• gree to be ascribed to the law of last year. It was in the recollection of the House, that the Hon. Member for Aberdeen moved for a Committee in the last Sec sio., to inquire into the state of tho-e laws. He (Mr. H s:isson), gave his entire concurrence in the appoint mat of such a Committee. The laws regulating the re.ations between masters and men, though plausible enough in theory, were said not to be equal in their practical operation. He therefore willingly agr;ed, that at the laws respecting Comhin stions were calcu lated to keep up discontent, and enmity, and heart burnings. they ought to be inquired into, and that be ing the opinion o: the majority of the House, a Com mittee was granted on the Hon. Member's motion. T e e was a very full Committee, it consisted of no fewer than fifty members, it sat constantly for a r:onsiderable period of time, and took a great variety of evidence. , The result of these labours of the Committee was, that they came to certain resolutions, which they submitted to the House without any explanatory statement. He was himself a member of that Committee, but he was sorry that he was prevented by his official avocations fioni giving his attendance. He regretted that the same cause prevented him from paring due attention to the enactments of the Bill that was brought in on the reso lutions of the Committee. That Bill went, not only to repeal all the penal statutes relating to the Com bination Laws, but also to prohibit the punish ments that were awarded by tt e common law.— The Hon. Member, in his argumei,ts on the Bill, stated oa the most respectable authority (that of the Hon. and Learned Member for Peterborough), that if the si acute, were repealed, the common law would be found suffi cient to all necessary purposes. The Bill was sanctioned by the Howe; it went to repeal between thirty and forty Acts of Parliament. It was brought in at a 1s e period of the Session ; it was read a second time on Tuesday the lit, and it was passed on Saturday, the sth June, only four days after the second reading. It was natural at that period of the Session that the House should proceed with expedition,and that was the reason that the Bill did not undergo sufficient examination. It became his own duty, him the situation which he occu pied, to look to the proceedings of the operative classes in different parts of the country since the passing of that Bill. The accounts he received were of an alarming character. His Right Hon. Friend the Secretary for the Home Department also received from various parts reports of the most disgraceful acts of outrage and vio lence. These acts of outrage were grown more nume rous and more alarming daily, and they betrayed in the working claues a strong tendency to foster a spirit of combinatioskand mischief. The evil had arrived at such maturity, that If the House did not interpose their timely authority, it wou ld soon become the duty of his Eight Hon. Frimsd o the &mem for the Home Depart- anent, to attend to it. He woe bound to ate the power with which his official situation armed him, to pro•ect the propeity and the persons of his Majeity's subjects from this lawless outrage of the workmen. But it was more becoming the duty of that House to inter fere. By looking more closely at the subject, they might treat it as one of commercial policy. He was satisfied that if the House did not interfere in due time, they would soon find the evil of such magnitude, that no man could foresee the consequences. If the House did not step in, and if the working part of the population continued to commit these acts of intimidation and violence, his Right Hon. Ftiend would not be back ward in using his authority, and in calling on the House for assistance for the protection olproperty. He hoped that be would not be considered by any man as entertaining a principle hostile ro that reasonable maxim of allowing every man to make the most of his time, and to dispose of bis labour and of his skill to the best advantage—( Hear). He supported the principle that every man ought to be allowed to carry his labour and his ingenuity wherever he pleased. His 14bour was the only commodity that the poor man had, and he ought to be permitted to carry it to the best market and make the best bargain for it—(Hear, hear). But he with equal zeal contended for the freedom of will of those who gave employment to that labour and that skill; t employers *ere as much entitled to protection as the workmen—(Hear, hear). They afforded the capital for the employment of that labour; . 'that capital, the property of the master, ought to be as sacred as the labour employed on it, the property of the poor. With out protecting this capital, that which gave employ ment to labour could not be sustained. By the te ports which he bad received, it appeared that great outrages were committed, and many lives were lost, under circumstances that prevented the punishment of the guilty if not their detection. He would refer the House to documents which he held in his hand, and which contained the rules and articles of the Associa- tion of Operative Colliers of Lanark, Dumbarton, and other places. That Association had drawn up a regular Constitution;—they had Presidents, Vice-Presidents, Treasurers, Secretaries, Delegates, &c. All their pro ceedings were those of a fully constituted government. In one article of their code, they provided for the ap pcintment of delegates to be sent to and to assist at thp general meeting of the traders. There was a anion of the trades, and that was to consist of delegates from the different trades forming a central meeting. Each delegate by those articles was t' be pad by his own work, but the Treasurers and Secretaries were to be paid out of the general fund, and they were elected'for six months. The Right Honou able Gentleman having pointed out the dangerous tendency of those meetings, came to t"e consideration of another article, the eleventh, by which it appeared ta be 66 the duty of each delegate to point out those masters whom he disliked (Hear, hear)—and to warn them of the dangers in which they were placed." lie asked it it was fit that any persons engaged in the lawful disposal of their property should be kept in that , state of terror? But to shew the House how those Associations were disposed to tyrannize over the people, be found that those articles were Fable to be altered or amended by a third of the delegates. The power ( , f levying money for ail the Associations forming the union, was to be vested in the General Committee., Another of their regulations was, that they would not allow their masters to have on hands,' . ;t any time, al stock of webs; for if the masters could have such a stock, they might be able to free themselves ham the' contrcul of the men. Another regulation of this Ass.l. dation was, that every man who came among them for work, was to be amerced in the sum of f 5 before he was admitted to work, and alter wards he was to pay Is. per week. Another article was, that the child of each mem ber was to be reckoned one-fourth of a man— (it I.ltlghl and to have that proportion of pay? The Right Ho nourable Gentleman appeased to the House, if, in the state in which this country was placed with re spect to Poor Laws, those people had a right to waste in this manner, those funds, which, if taken care of, would keep them from pauperism? If the fine of 51. with this shilling per week, were put in a Savings' Bank to accumulate for those depositors, it would turn out more profitably for them as well as for the i r parish, than to be thus intrusted to these Committees of Ma nagement. The object of those delegates was, to direct great bodies of men to concur in their own v ews. One article in their constitution said, that in any business , that arose at their meetings, there shou'd be a fall dis.' cussion of the matter. He called the particul .r a•ten tion of the House to the 2241 article, by which it was declared that no Member of she Associatioa should engage wi,h any master for any period of time, at any price, without first obtaining the consent of the General Committee. It these articles were to be rat nd d, and if they were adopted by the trot kmen in other b• inches of labour, such as ship building, &c. what would be the consequence? The system. nvirl already extended 'to that branch of useful and teceassry em,rloym?nr, called the coasting trade, although the men had not reduced the it views into writt , n articles, like the i p!ra live cabers of Dumbarton and its neighbourhood. principle on which they proceed. d was tkis, namely, that they had a right to select those persons who were to have authority over them. Was this a fit ststeof things? Were the workmen it appoint their officers? He, how. ever, bad accounts of some cases in which the men combined to choose their over looker s , as they called them. A case of this sort happened, in which the men refused to do that which was necessary for the safety of the 'ship. in the articles of the Union of this coasting trade, which were in the form of a di rlogue between Tom and Harry, it was laid down that the men should not be employed in shifting or moving the ballast. A case happened lately, in which it became necessary far the safety of the vessel to have the ballast removed, and the men refused. It was stated that the danger in which the vessel was placed, and from which she was rescued, was owing to the insubordination of the men. If these were not proceedings that deserved the consi deration and interference of chat House, it would be as well to relinquish all protection of property. This spirit of insubordination proceeded in a great measure from the obscure meaner in which the Act of last Ses sion was worded, and from the construction artfully put on it by evil-disposed or mistaken persons. The Act repealed all the Statutes on the subject of combi nation, and left the punishment for all such offences to the Common Law. The second section of the Act might mislead many persons. It stated that all " jour neymen and workmen, kc. who enter into any combi nation, to get an increase of wages, or who combine to regulate any trade or manufacture, Sec. shall not be liable to any punishment under the tatute or Common Law." Any man reading that part of the Statute, would be inclined to think it right to take upon him- self to regulate trades. It was 'necessary to stet tieE people right on this point, and to :hew them *hat the law Was. In another part of that Act, It was declared that any persons who should intimidate persons, or destroy any machine, or goods, or.merchandize, if they were convicted by two Magistrates, on the evidence of two witnesses, might be punished with two months' imprisonment. Now, he would appeal to his Ha pourable and Learned Friend, the Attorney-General, whether intimidations, or destruction of property were not acts punishable without the aid of this Act ? All these acts of the destruction of property, all threats and intimidations being either felonies or misdemeanors, were subject to alpanishment of at least two months im prisonment without this Act. But again, combining and plotting to raise wages, or do other matters, was no offence by this Act. This law was not sufficient to put down those evils which he had stated. If those deluded men could refl.ct but for one moment on the necessary consequences of that course of violence which they now followed, and could see that their acts of outrage would make it impossible to expect that any person would risk their capital under such circumstances, they could not fail of perceiving that by their violence capital would be driven tf, other places, or protection should be granted against such consequences. He would advise the capi talists through the country not to yield to such preten sions —(Hear). Let them call on the Magistracy of the country to give them support and protection. If the Magistracy were not sufficient, his Right Hon. Friend would not be backward in rendering the aid required. To what event it would be necessary to alter this law, or wheth:r it would be necessary to repeal it entirely, and to consider of something more summary and effi cient, to prevent the extenoon of those combinations which were not necessary, he could not then take on himself to say ; but it was a subject well deserving of inquiry--(Hear, hear). Holding a situation by which he was bou-id to give protec i ni to the labourers and to the masters, hr did hot conceive that he did more than belonged to his pubic duty to protect the people from oiara 4 e. He had eivertained a bore t!.at what ever might have been the ebul:iti n of the winkmcnOn , the r. peati of the Combination Laws, they would have the gcbd serve to co-olerate with the misters in forming a scale of prices. That hope, he was sorry to say, was now diminished. He felt it therefore necessary to move for the appointment or a Select Committee, to inquire into the. Acc of Sth of George IV. chapter 95, respecting the con duct of workmen and others, through the United Kingdom, and to resort to the Ilene their opinion, how far it was necessary to repeal or amend the said Act. Mr. HUME said, he was certain that no person had watched the progress of these laws with more anxiety than himself—no person was more anxious to ascertain their effects upon the operative classes. The result of this inquiry was, that many of the workmen in the country had availed themselves of the benefits of the , measure, and had not abused Many, he was sorry to admit, had gone g. eater lengths than the interest of their employers or the community would allow. He expected some re-action would follow, and the old laws could not be repealed without it. If we were placed in ordinary circumstances, this re-action, whether caused by unions, or other means, would perhaps he lighter; but since the passing of the Act, every description of emp.oyment was on the increase, all classes of labourers were in demand, ;led some of them, in consequence, presumed to act against their cin i .loyers. There were formerly two medea of prosecuting for combinations, under the Statute and Common Law—the prosecution by the latter was much more severe than that by Sta tute. The Committed sat 57 days, the various Resolu tions were submitted to the members fourteen days be fore their final determination; they would not there fore be accused of precipitation ; and at two meetings there was not a single dissentient voice, except upon the subject of machinery, the consideration of which was posrponed until the present Session. The Right Hon. Gentleman made objections to the wording of the Bill ; but if he referred to the nth and 40th Geo. 111. he would find the present Act taken serbatim from them. The other clauses did not, as the Right Honourable Gentleman seemed to think, lessen the power aed effi ciency of the laws ; on the contrary, they increased them. Formerly combin.tion could not be prosecuted except at the Sessions, and a period of five or six months might elapse before trial ; at present a summary conviction may take place before two Magistrates, upon the testi- , mony' of two witnesses, and tee party convicted may be imprisoned fo two months. His opinion upon these matters was, that the master should make what arrange ments he thought proper, and the woe kman, as long as he was well conducted, should be at liberty to accede to or refuse them as he pleased. It was said, minders were committed in consequence of the combinations of milkmen. - He did not think there was one committed in England. There were some in Dublin, but this was the consequence of an inefficient Police in that city. There were in Dublin unions of fifty trades, and if the carriers were dissatished with their masters, the carpen ters inflicted punishment. If the carpenters were dis. pleased with uequalified persons, whom they called 11 colts, " it was the duty of the shoemakers to inflict punishinetit on them. The Chairman of one of these Unions had a few days ago written to him, to state that no law could be too severe for acts of violence; but he trusted that they who were well behaved would not be d prived of the liberties they enjoy ; that they would not be punished for the faults of others. The men, he thought, were o ten less to blame than their masters. When, upon what they called their first great trial at Glasgow, the men of Mr. Dunlop refused to work, he summoned a meeting of the masters, and told them to stand out against the men. They then told those in their employment, that if Mr. Dunlop's men did not return to their labour on Monday. they would dismiss them to the number of 10,000. Was this rea sonable? Was this just on the part of the masters? Mr. Dunlop's men said they did not like their regulations, and in consequence the entire, to the number of 10,000, were deprived of employment. He thought masters might form regulations in doing their business which should be complied with. He was *acquainted with a Mr. Yng, who employed seventy men in the tin trade. He would not allow them liquor in the workshop ; they left him in consequence, and told him that none of the union would work for him. He advertized for labourers, and added as a qualification, that he would employ no man who was a member of a union. He finally procured as many men as he wanted. Might not some such regulation be acted upon by the.r employers with the seamen? There was a prac tice amongst the masters at Manchester of which he did not approve; lists of those who struck for wages were seat about to each manufactory, and thus it was impossible for any man who displeased his employer t o obtain employment elsewhere. In these respects he bought the masters were carried as far beyond the hounds of propriety as as@ Men. the lasi Committee certainly contemplated a clause for the specific occa sions alluded to by the Right Honourable Gentle. 'man (Mr. Huskisson), as for example, in the cases its Ireland, where they had formerly acted ret ardless of all the old Combination Laws. He prerred that specific clause, rather than any general law rodeo latest fOr the indiscriminate punishment of all pers"as guilty of combination. Urn the question of the dis:. turbance in the Scotch collieries, he (Mr. Hume) had put a question to the Learned Lord Advocate, and he was willing to try the remedy provided for their re pression by the former Bill; rather than by any violent or general act upon that particular case. if upon the whole subject any new and better remedies could he provided to repress combination, consistently with the preservation of the principle of free labour, be for one Woild sec certainly object to it. Mr. Secretary PEEL said, that the unpleasant states meat which had been made by his Right Honourable Friend, was the consequence of the precipitate repeal of thirty-five laws, without substituting something better. He (Mr. Secretary Peel) was, however, glad that at the present moment there were no political feelings mixed up with the question, and that they should all go into it dispassionately, and with a due consideration of the interest of all parties. But they must not forget, that if the evil were allowed to continue, they might have to contemplate these unions under a very different aspect. The Right Honourable Gentleman then read the tenth Resolution of the Committee, and said that it held out an expectation that some new measure of pre vention was contemplated, when the old law should be repealed with respect to malignant combinations. But what was the fact? As it now appeared from the Act, it was only provided that upon the oaths of two witnesses, the offender should be taken before a Ma , gistrate, and punished with two months imprisonment. Such a law would evidently not teach them at all, be cause they would take care to commit the offence where there could be but one witness; and even should they be convicted, the punishment was quite inadequate to prevent a repetition of the offence.. He could not con cur with the Honourable Member when he proposed that punishment should be restricted to acts of violence. He really thought the system of delegation which was spreading over the country to be highly injurious, and also wholly inconsistent with the operation of those principles of free trade of which they heard so much, and which they had so justly praised on all sides. He would put the case of a ship where the sailer , be longing to one of these unions, should refuse to act unless they had certain officers of their own appoint ing, or upon some other equally extravagant pre tence. What would be the situation of such a ship, if a dispute arose between the resp-ctive parties, those who did, and those who did not belong to the union? The whole principle was utterly inconsistent with that freedom of action so necessary tw all transactions of trade and commerce. Ile was informed that there was now sitting upon the banks of the Thames a body of delegates, who undertook to obtain work for all who joined the Union, and to dictate to the master ship wrights what men they should or should not employ. The course taken by them was this. Workmen ap peared in the yards, and when the foreman of the ship wrights told them that they were not waited, that his master had plenty of hands, their answer was, "Oh ! but we were sent here by the Committee, and you must find us work." The con equence was, that if the master refused to employ them, all his other men belonging to the Union immediately left him, and his business suf fered accordingly. This was the same, he understood, in various other places. The conduct of these deluded men was exceedingly injurious to themselves; for, is fixing a maximum of wages, they destroyed the advan tages of bodily activity and superior skill v.hich were legitimately entitled to better wages. In seeking to establish an equality of wages, the best workmen were acting against their own interests. He was quite prepared to admit that these combinations existed before last year, and he deprecated the idea of con demning the Act of last year, or attributing the evils to that or any other particular Act. He believed that the present discussion would be productive of much public good, in e:ewing the unanimous de termination of the House not to tolerate these com binations which went to destroy or counteract all those principles of free trade and freedom of action, without which the measures they were now adopting would be entirely nugatory. Let them look at their effects upon the ore of society.—lt appeared that within the last three years, ten innocent persons had been murdered for not joining, or acting according to the rules of the combination—and their murderers never brought to justice. It was a state of things which belonged to an uncivilized state of society—a dreadful vulgar tyranny, less endurable than the absolute des potism of one man. The effect upon the prosperity of the country was not less destructive. There was one case appeared in the evidence taken before the Com mittee, of a Mr. Robinson, who established a manufac tory of nails in Ireland. The workmen, for some cause or other, objected to using these nails, and when their masters persisted, they railed a meeting to the number of three thousand, and agreed 44 that if their mas ters compelled them to use Robinson's nails, they would drive them crooked" (Hear, hear). Thus an attempt to introduce capital into Ireland was frustrated, and the manufactory was driven back to Birmingham, where the Irish had to follow it and buy their nails. He was glad that his Right Hon. Friend had taken the course of proposing an investigation by a Committee. There would be no use in repealing the Honourable Member's . Act, and leaving the old system of the Combination Laws where it was—he wanted to see something better substituted in its place. The Honourable Member was mistaken in supposing that no persons had suffered violence anywhere but in Dublin. And he really could not conceive a stronger ( claim upon their compassion and protection, than that lof the man, who, refusing to join these Unions, would nct dare to appear in twenty towns in this coun try, after nightfall, without exposing himself to personal violence. He trusted something would be done by the House, for nothing so dangerous to the peace of the country had come within his notice since he had the honour of filling his present situation. Mr. H. GURNEY said, many of the evils now in exi,t,mce could not be attributed to the repeal of the Combination Laws, and he should deprecate their re-enaeuneat. Sir M. W. RIDLEY expressed his satisfaction at finding that the Right Honourable Gentleman had di rected his attention to this important subject. He could corroborate the statement of the Right Honourable Gentleman, respecting the ports on toe northern coast. He knew of one case in which the mate, who was . the Captain's son, was compelled to go ashore to be sworn a Member of the Union, before tine sailors would go to sea; and if he bad refused, the ship must have lost beg