Star. — London, England, 1802-05-08 00:00:00

that -, s ~ late '4l. niffers. The noun stai toll h the Sell fel, under his guidance, had rode nut the' amino and got Cafe into port ; but what was the fad ? The Noble Lord had affected that peace had no thing to do with this quellion, yet how was that. boalted fecurity to he judged of, if we did not look at the nature of the peace. It was to be remem bered that even if the nee did afford us fecurity, we were no g ( indebt for it to the late Miniftee . ,— But in order to judge of this fecurity , let us take a te view of the date of France, of her enlarged terri tory, and improving refources :--there were not wanting perfons even among the Colleagues of the late Minifter, and who were to .be included in the Noble Lord's Vote of Thanks, who differed very widely with the affertion, that this country had got into a fafe harbour ; on the contrary, they law • I nillitig but danger in our prefent lituation ; and thought that no hope remained of draping from ruin. As to the flatement that we had gained all that we had not loft, lie was of opinion that it would he extremely difficult to make out that pro pc,fition—to (hew that we owed this gain to the war, and that we fhoulel not have had it by con cluding peace at an earlier period, or by avoiding the war altogether. if the argument could be good, it muff preiVe that it was necelfary to fpend millions, and to flied the blood of millions of men, in order to preferve the nation from lofing.— What reafon was there to prefume that a Peace quite as glorious as that jolt concluded, might not have been made with Fiance at many periods of the war—or that Inch a peace would have left us in a worfe fituation than we now were ; or that a conflation with the French Republic would have been more dangerous to this country then than now. But jacobinifm was then dreaded ; and was not that jacobinifm the bafis and foundation of the prevent French Government ? At the time that 13iinaparte's overtures for peace were rejeZted, it w;s Bated that the effed of his ufurpation was fich as alone to juitify the continuation of the war, the precedent was frippored fo pregnant with dan ger ; hut after he had eonfulidated his power, his —cr ufurpation and jacosbinifm were, forgotten. Why fitinild it have been fuppofed thittany other perfon that his governed France fume the Revolution, even Robeipier re himfelf,Vould not, had we made peace with it, contrived to confolidate its power, by !silencing Jacobin Clubs—putting down newf• papers, and doing all - tbefe other things which are thought by fume to charaElet ife a regular Govelm ment—that they would'not bring men, after mint 'hipping the Goddefi of Reafon, in grand procef fion to the chapel of Notre Dame. After what Bonaparte had done in Egypt, whatever his foe cefs,in arms might have been—a fuccefs which was poor confolation to the ill fated country that has ha its liberty through him—why prefume that this country would not have been as fate in con cluding peace with any other French Government? Thus much he Rated, in 'order to exhibit fome. thing of the fecurity of which Come Gentlemen fcemed fo confident. Whether or not the war might have been originally avoided, he would not now difeufs, though his opinion remained unalter ed, that this country was the aggreffor ; but even fuppofing the contrary to be the fad, that was no apology for profecuting the war when it might have been terminated. Ishat it might have been terminated on many •occafions, and in a way with more advatitage to thiscountry than the late peace, he did not think it would be very difficult to prove. With refpea to the original objets of the war, they were two-fold—to fupprefs Jacobinifm, and to prevent the aggrandizement of France. Surely it would not be denied, that the late hlinifter had many opportunities of making peace when the ter ritcry of France was not fo enormoufly extended as at ritivnr. But that Right Hon. Gentleman was lb iinguiar fa his politics,that he alwaysrefufed to treat when firccefsful, and never propofed it but when the furtlicr profecution of hollilities famed hopelefs. When he fent Lord Ikfalmethury to Paris, the French troops had over-run Germany, and Bonaparte was in petit Ilion of Italy ; the moment it was underflood ' 1 that Jourdan was defeated, the chara4ler and tone of the negociation changed. The negociation at Lille commenced under circumftances quite as un• aufpicious as the former; it was broken off from limilar confiderations. Such was the policy of the late hli:7itlcrs—afking Peace when in a (late of dilcomfiture ; and fo elated by fuccefs as to 'brink from the idea of pacification. The refult of this injudicious fyllent has been at length to reduce this cenntry to the neceflity of concluding a Peace upon worie conditions than ever Great Britain did fince the began to hold a rank among the nations of Europe—a ran!: from which unqueftionably fhe has been reduced by th:s difadvantageous peace— a peace, however, which-it was thought creditable in the late Minifter to plead for, though evidently the tenth of a neceffity created by himl:e.lf. What ever the effet% of the peace mighet t e,he approved of it, becaufe it was pr ierable to the continuance of war. The Preliminaries had his approbation, and if that approbation did not arit . e out of thecon' bdcrations h e h a d a l rea d y R ate d, his opinior: would bechanged by whathad fincelmppened in the acqu i efeence of Minifters to the ai:litional pretenfions of France. That power, to reCtrain whole ambition the war . Iva:. commenced, ha. s now exten d e d h er boun daries from the Alps Lis the Ocean, from the Pr relicts to th e Rhine. Was that a fituation which the late Minifter was even prepared to anticipate at the beginning of the contelt ? The Noble Lord's ( liawkelbury) - 6°4 of the commercial and mari time tirength of this country, furprifed him not a little : could the Noble Lord place lb mach reli anze on ou r ' s uperiority ir, t h a t re fpat—at lean on the long continuance is , . that fuperiority . ; or did he mean t o rec k on upon maritime flrength from a view of the number of ihipping ? Let the Noble Lord take a fair coraparifon of the fleets of Eng lard and France at the beginning of the war and t.t prelim, with ri confideration of the prof pats fLre us in the &It init.4 nee, and he will not have fn mach reaf on to vaunt of the acquifitions !..ate :n that r efpal ; betides it was to be taken :Ito accou'at that France was now furnifhed with e means es acquiring naval power. Poffeffed as f} : e s' ..3 ‘ I If inch an extent of coati, from the Text! in 5.,,i, . , . r I, wr i t to many important ports in the 14 ` : Jit'A ran t an, was it to be fuppiffed that the 'l4 4-/tat MAI figeleif granazerrretit, and Bitd tot Mega* 'Mail attacking,war trade r . had the adf acquired (*Oil tics of trading in the EaR Indies, Mitch the m not poffefs before the war ? Could the not riciw Anon controul our communication with the Ea( Indies and America by her dominion over the Cape, and the acceffion of Louifiana ? If the Ratements of the late Minikes own colleagues are to be relied on, the commerce of France mutt foon eclipfe that of this country, and overturn the flattering profpeds Which the Noble Lord would hold out. What pretenfiotis then could that Minifter have to the approbation of the Houfe? What had obliged his fucceffor to conclude a Treaty which, according to the confetlion of his own col leagues, had funk die Country into fuch a (tate of degradation and humility? But it was argued that this neceffity arofe out of the difficulty of cir cum(lances, and it would be worthy of enquiry, whether thefe difficulties were not of the Right Hon. Gentleman's own creation, that is by refuting fo often to abandon the objets of the war; or, to enter into Treaty on certain terms, without (train ing the turnoff effort of the country— 'foto certaturn eft corpore regni. If Gentlemen complained of dillentions among the Confederacy originally combined arainft France, defeating the views of the late Mintfters, it was a queftion whether thefe diflentions were not owing to the mifmanagement of that Right Hon. Gentle! man himfelf? It was only neceflary to take a !port retrofped of the condud of that Right Hon. Gentleman, to be induced to entertain a ftrong . . opinion that he was the cattle of thofe diffentions. —The objet of the 'war was to reftore order in France, and to compel the Government to ab dicate. When fuch was the objet, what was the courfe to be purfued ? Was it by fending I troops to the Welt Indies to feize fome Iflands What effed could it have on the (lability of the French Government ? Whether the capture of Martinique could drat the deftrudion of the French Government was not the queflion, but whether fucli a - difpofition of our force was contif-; tent with the plan formed by the coalition again(! France, or whether that was the belt mode of ac complithing the object of the war? Such, however, was the effea of that expedition upon the minds of' thole engaged in the coalition, that it immediate. I ly excited the idea of diftind objeds, and divided interells. Aultria took Valenciennes in her own name, and Pruffia immediately fet about the con fideration of her own interefts. In the fir( cam paign an army was detached from the Confede; racy upon a march to Dunkirk—quite a Britifh objet. Could it then be doubted by whom that con federacy was oferarated ; by whom its ditfolution was produced ! The whole was attributable to the original and fundamental &felts of the plan upon which the late Minifter aced. All thole difficulties fo loudly complained ofwere engender ed by him : for Purely no fuch difficulties could exit, or be even apprehended at that period, when the bankruptcy of the French Government, and the de ftrudionofitsrwer within a year was fo confident ly expeded. Noble Lord on the Treafury Bench, talked of the facility of a march to Paris.— Strange how different the opinion then of the difficulties which were now made an enure for the lunation to which the country was reduced by Peace I—ln voting for the Preliminaries of this Peace he knew that he was making great facrifices, but he contented to that rather than recommend the continuance of the war. Such was the dilemma in which the Minifler now propofed to be extolled by the Houle, had placed the country. Since the Preliminaries were difcuff ed great events had occurred, which very ma terially affeded the queftion of Peace. Thefe changes he Rated, and dwelt upon at fome length. Having enumerated the errors of the late Admi. nittration, he contended that the Houfe was not, by any thing that had been advanced, juftified in agreeing to the Vote of Thanks which had been moved. He confidered the motion as extremely ill timed ; the late Minifters had been now a year and a half out of office, and no one had ever thought they merited fo explicit a declaration of the tenth of the Houfe in their favour, until a motion had been made implying cenfure on their condud. the adoption of fuch a motion, the Houfe mull mean to approve of the condud of Minifters throughout the war. The molt (hiking and prominent part of their conduit was the re jedion of the overtures of Bonaparte; and it was notorious that the greater part of the difadvan rages of the prtfent peace were attributable to the resdion of thole overtures. He obferved, that the Houfe would at with the hig . heft degree of inconfiftency in approving of the conduit of the late Miniftry ; for it was a circutnitance peed:fly well known. that a majority of the perfons who compofed the Cabinet while they were in power, now considered the peace recently concluded as a miaow one ; confequently, if their counfels had prevailed, the country would not have had Peace ; yet the Houfe Was defired, although they, ap proved of the peace, to content to return thanks to thote whole advice had it been followed, would have precluded the attainment of that blef fing. An Honourable Baronet had flared, that the late war had been generally futcefsful, and that we had encountered no failure in which the numbers of the Britifh troops had been equal to thole of the enemy :—this propofition he denied. Without referring to all the inftances to the contrary he could point out, he would content himfelf by mentioning fiat the Expedi tion againft Dunkirk, the failure of which arofe from a fundamental errhr in the mode of profecut ing the war, notv:ith (landing we had an army fupe. rior to that of the enemy, by whom we were forced to retire. Not to trouble the Houfe by (taring the fanftaion if the early periods of the war, he would remark only that in the expedition againft Holland, our army was compelled by an inferior army to purchale its retreat—a large Britifh army —larger than ar.y one that had ever been under the command of the Duke of Marlborough, had been fent to Holland and difgraced, and dilkom. rued by an enemy infinitely lets numerous. Did the Hon. Baronet recoiled the failure of the expe ditions againft Ferrol and Cadig, and the delay of nit*, ir -- e'viitV , ' v at: . f , Heirtuffeetd tif a c t • ' sill *gout of ' the IOW* *On. - ' OttEtif pt, but the ftteeefi oftdrats acne wit citte 'oldie y to the ' Officers and troops s tO • them the country owed everY think ; to 11fintliers . nothing : oti the con. traey they were liable to blame for - havingetpafed to danger a force which' but for itr bravery, and perhaps the fault and mifkilfulnefk of the enem.v, mutt in all probability have been deftroyed; l-le was alto ready to admit that for tor a thorough knowledge of finance* the' .late Chance/lot of the Exchequer was excelled by few; but certainly his love of innovation had produced difficulties filch as this country never had before experienced. All that had refulted from his financial meafures, - for which his admirers teemed inclined to give him fit - much credit, was, that in the cotirfe of nine years 350,000,00 a hid been added to the capital of the debt ; a (urn exceeding by t 10,000,000 t the 1 amount of the debt created by all the wars from the revolution to the prefent time. He had added i 5,000,0001. to the national taxation, which was 7,000,0001. more than the whole amount of the taxes previous to the war. ' The :vadal unre deemed debt of the country would be con fi derably above 500,000,0001. He then referred to the meat- Cure adopted by the late Chancellor of the Exche quer for reftrieting the payments by the Bank in fpecie, contending that it had not only been at tended with many commercial diladvantages, but alto with general public calamity—vitnefs the daily trials for forgery, owing to the increafed tir. culation of Bank paper : indeed, the evil confe- quences of that ill-advifed meafure were not yet fully experienced. He cenfured likewife the adop don of the Income Tax es part of a financial fyf tern ; he confidered it as a tax which was incon tinent with every principle of free commerce. If any proof was wanting of the injurious nature of fuch a tax, it was, that the fucteffor ()fake author of it had, in conformity to the declared wifhes of the pnblic, and of the Houfe, been obliged to repeal I it. But great merit had been attributed to the late Chancellor of the Exchequer for his attention to the Sinking Fund. To the merit of having ad. tiered to it he was ready to agree, but he denied that he was entitled to any other praife. What ever merit was due to the plan itfelf was referable to the original author of it, whahad laid down a lynern fantlioned by AR of Parliament, which all future Chancellors of the Exchequer were bound to abide by. The Hon. Member entered into a variety of arguments, inferring that the alterations made by 'the late Chancellor of the Exchequer, with regard to the Sinking Fund, had tetardpd its operation inflead of having ac celeiated It. For the rearms he had Rated, and confideriag, that under the late Admininration, this country, from a &nation of power, had been brought to a Rate of comparative weaknefs, he ' fhould vote againit the amendment. Without tome enquiry perhaps it might be unfair to cenfure the late Minifters, but certainly it would be too much to vote them the:Oh:fedi of praife. Some. thing had been (aid with refpea to the price of the Rocks, as if they were a criteeiotr of the wealth of the country, the liability of its Government, and the wifdom of its Adminiftration; He would only obferve, that when the merit of the Ad ' miniftration, the (lability of the Government, 1 and the wealth of the country depended upon 1 the price of the three per cents. it would be an omen of evil afpeet, and forebode the decline of 1 the power of the kingdom. In all he had Paid he affured the Houfe he meant nothing perfonal with regard to the late Chancellor of the Exchequer.— He thought his talents rather fplendid than nfeful, and that he had employed the brilliant powers of his eloquence to defend what was bad, rather than promote what was advantageous to the public.— Dextrous he certainly was in debate, and emi nently calculated, by the delufions of his eloquence, to fitpport an oppreflive fyllem ; but he was defi cient in that true wifilom, by the proper applica tion of which in a Minifter a country was made great and happy.—He concluded by giving his cordial anent to the original motion. Sir HINItr . MILDNLY (poke in explanation. . Lord HAWRISIVIIT fald, it was incumbent 011 the Houfe not to fuller the original motion to pats off without fomething more than a mere negative. The late war was not to be confidered as an ordi nary war; it was to be viewed as produced by a great revolution in the minds of men. It had been alerted that this country was the aggreffor in it, but it was confeffed to have originated from- France by the content of all parties in that coun try : there might perhaps be a few perfons in the Executive Gchernment of France not averfe to maintaining peace with this country ; but the Go vernment in general certainly was fo. The prin ciples they held were fubverfive of all order; peace would have been a calamity in fuch circumflances. The Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Grey) elks whether 'the fame grounds for our fear of Jacobinifm do not (till ma? I anfwer, that I cla not hefittte to siffirne, whatever opinion may be entertained of the prefent Government of ?cane in other refpeds, that tiler, has been as complete a.renunciation of the principles of Jacobinifm as could be walled for ' by the molt 'jealous enemies of tbofe pernicious principles. Did any man ever fay that we muff continue the war for a change of dynany or fuc ceffor, whatever we might have wifhed, or becaufe France was a Republic ? No ; but becaufe it was 'founded on principles that no Republic was ever, founded upon. But do we not fee a recurrence to ;ancient maxims and ancient principles ? It is im poffible to look at the conduit of that Government :and no to fee a compleat abandonment of the princifles of Jacobinifm. They Lave ahked parr ,don of Goo and men, and now revert to the ordi: nkry principles of Government. Let it then be con fidered whether it would have been expedient to have renewed the war, and forced, perhaps, France to return to her mifchievous principles. It hadbeen afked, what period of the war was there when we .might not have obtained a rrpre advantageous Peace than the prefent? None, faid his Lordlibip, I aver. From the commencement of the war to 'the year teoca it was not poffible to obtain any Piece wham— the Dagociations that w ter ail dirrrende deferl4ldt aqtertiliffeci riot th make peace. • dtatilftlfte. the Whole *orld, that Its. u not a" dffitii,e &accruing terms. In filo°, the Hon. Gentletyad far, every body mull admit that peace ,mighthite Leen then Made on better terMs; bitt ttre ought to look at the fituation in which Mini. ler% were, andin which the country was. Genoa Was Rill itt the poffeffion of France, as werkEgnit and Malta. Ruffia and Auld* were both wil ling to contittue the war, which greatly alteredthe fituatioh of affairs; for I will admit; that even now, could we hope to place Europe in better ciittim lances, It might have been expedient to rejed the prefent terms of peace. We mull then cofilider the whole cirettmflances of the cafe ; the ! known initability of the French Government naturally prevented us from halay acceding to the propofals of one who had jul fei,til its helm. But let us come m the conduit of the war which arofe out Of the Revolution, which no human prudence could have prevented. I can fee nothing to blame in the conduit of the war, or in the conclufion of Peace. Whatever may be the i»fe• curity of Europe at this prefent time, I can fee nu greater chance of fecurity to Europe from continu mg the war ; and it mull certainly be preferable to preferve, and not wale our ffrength in prole cuting a war that can produce no good effea to ourfelves, or to Europe. lam prepared to main tain that there neve was a Peace when our marie time commercial, and colonial flrength was great er, conitiared with that of France, than at prefent. As to the war, when was there a war in which confiderable failures have not happened ? but on the whole, never was there a war more eminently ! fuccefsful. • I believe this is the firfl war in which no Britith poffeflion was wreled from the Coon try ; all our poffeffions are fecure, yet it is to be remembered that this Country had neceffarily but a fubordinate part in the contell ; the great efforts mutt be made by others,. and if thefe can it be wondered that we Mould likewife cape ' rience failure ? The war was condultsa with the greatel ability by my Right Honourable !Friend, and thoug h he bad unexampled di ffi culties to Krug le with, he lilt adhered firmly to the plan h e had laid down to himfelf for the finking fund, ! which had it been earlier pralifed,the national debt could never have been more than the amount of two wars at the molt. With relied to the admit& llration of that Right Hon. Gentleman, is the Union forgotten ? the•greatefl event achieved by any Mi- Rider. Confider what the lituation of Ireland was ! three years ago, and how much that country owes to the late adniini(lration, who under loch circuit'. I lances could attempt and carry into effect a Inca ! fure of fuch magnitude, and of fuch effential ad. vantage to both countries. From a recapitulation of all thefe reafons his Lordihip concluded with ! reminding the Houfe of what it owed to itf e lf, if it would maintain any confiltency in its condua, to fuppott the atnendment. Mr. PooLs declared his concurrence with the amendment. He confidered the war as a war or aggrefllon nn the part of the•enemy,and therefore unavoidable. Mr. Fox roll at baltpaft eleven, and continued a molt able and argumentative fpeecb till pall two o'clock. It is therefore impoflible to prefent any thing more than a mere !ketch of it. •He began with raying, that although the forths of the Houle do admit the Amendment of the Noble Lord, yet I molt take it as the mot extraordinary and un jullifiable way which can in loch an inftance be adopted. Why not negative the original motion at once ? There is here, if I may be allowed the exprelSon, a dexterity in the Noble Lord, and what I flionld call, if it were not like a bull, a (*miller dexterity on his part. This Houfe has not of late !hewn much difpofition for enquiry; and here, certainly leis than upon any former oc carton. The Noble Lord does not with to have at iiredt panegyric on Mr. Pitt, for that vfould not be altogether palatable to the country,but he whips it in by a very extraordinary manoeuvre. It is not • alone a panegyric upon the IVlini ft er, but an eulo-, gium upon the colleagues of that Minifter, upon' the Army, upon the Navy, upon the Houfe of Commons itfelf—and by whom ? By the Route of Commons itfelf. Firft of all, I will not thank his Majefty for difmiliarig Mr. Pitt until I know that -he did difmifs him ; and fecondly, I will not thank his Majefly for difmiffing him,. if fuch was ,the fad, until I know the grounds on which the enure of his difmiffal took place. The motives have been differently hated ; but if he has been difiniffed becaufe he fupported the claims of the Catholics•of Ireland, I will fay that nothing be. came him fo much in his public and official life as the leaving it. If that were aflually the cafe, Mr. Pitt fhould have my fupport. Yet I intik fay, that fuch a queftion as tbit of Catholici Emancipation fhould not have been confined to ' Mr. Pitt alone, but fhould have been the folic& of Parliamentary difentSon. I therefore than give my vote againft addreffing the King in this cafe. Bnt, Sir, !hall we now decide in a tamp that which Cbould in all its parts be feparately dit 7 cuffed. All the meafures of the late Miniftert fhould be taken and weighed one by one, in order to form a juft opinion uponithe whole. If I approve of the prefent Miniders,• I do it upon this prin ciple, that they made Peace at a time, which, however I objett to fume of the Articles, is !till • an objea of real fatisfaetion to the country. Yet the objeftions all =ifs from the ftate to which the country was reduced by the late Minifters, and which rendered Peace neceffary. But in thanking' Mr. Pitt, are we to th a nk Lord Grenville ? Are we to thank the Secretary at War ? Ara we• to thank the late Lord Chancellor ? Are we to thank all thofe who differ in opinion with Mr. Pitt ? Are we to thank thofe who are called fac tion; and bite molt fcverely againit the prefent Minifters I Are thofe whom 1 have mentioned mere flop-gaps, or rather have they not been ef. feudal parts of the late Adminiltrati9n ? I forgot, Sir, a Right Hon. Gentleman, the Preljelent of the Board orControul, the Secretary of the War De partment, and the Treafurer of the Navy, a, Gen. tleman who has complained of any abfencc, am( who has been hintfelf of late very abfent. Is ho • alio be coat dcred r .. ~, I a 11. II V _~, r~ . , i; 11' r • .4 • . .p.m7x •••• aaaaaaa •), LAW Vgi y aumm. woe *stew t the negoeiattons that were fet not elf%) to be costithred as a part of the late'A‘ • II