Star. — London, England, 1805-06-15 00:00:00

coa otry, in the gVfieral fly of Europe. Looking to the lubjea is tins light, I certainly felt that I fhould h a sedeferted my duty to my Sovereign ho this Houle, and to my Country, if I bad, from a fear of violat ing a particular fetus, not potencd for t i to de enough to do, what I conceived the higheft intereils, not of this kingdons merely,butof Europe, required. Under an impreffion that the advance was effentially necef fay to the belt Wenn, of the late, I did content to it, and if the Hoare in their wifdnm think I have sled wrong, I Mall certainly feel it my duty to bow to their decifion. But the Honourable Member lays' that I ought to have inquired more minutely into the affairs of Boyd and Benfield, before I confented to give them fo large an advance of the public money., Sir, they had come to me aficing fur an advance of r ‘oney aithoutanyfecurity,andon a mere alfurance re-payment, I &odd unqacftionably have felt it roe duty to examine minutely into the late of their • •Fvirs before I acceded to dull. regime. When, ant* (Kathie' were pat into my bands, en I faw no danger but the impoffibility of get ',jag thefe fecurities accepted in the ordinary metric of mercantile proceedings, certainly furl an exami nation was foperiluous. It might he faid, indeed, that the concerns of Boyd and Benfield were in that precarious Mate that demanded rigid inquiry. It was a fah, however, that upwards of three years elapfed before their 3isfolute infolvency was afcertained.— Even that Honomable Gentleman to whom he had a l r eady alluded, had no furpicion of this till the end of 1797, though Boyd and Benfield participated in all the loans from 1796, yet in confequence of Mr. Thornton's information I felt it my duty to re- Life their farther participation in any public contra.. This, indeed, was in every eafe the courk I purfued on every occafien. The Governor and Deputy Go vernor of the Bank attended when a loan was to he contrafted for, and on their opinion of the folvency of the contralars, was my opinion guided. The Right llononrahle Gentleman, after a few more oh !creations on this point, concluded by throwing hito- Self entirely on the wifilom and candour of the Houle. Mr. HENRY LA SC ELLES commenced his Speech with obferving, that it would ill become him, after what the Hnufe bad heard Gated, with infinite abili ty by the Right. Hon. Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) below him, to go at large into the quefiion. In taking up the time of the Houfe, he was not Linguine enough to hope that be bosh] afford them any additional fatisfaftion ; but having fat every day upon that Committee, and having given all the attention in his power to what had patkd there, he thought it incumbent on him to give notice, on a for mer evening, that he would propole counter refolu tions to any motion of eenfure, which the Hon. Mem ber on the ("polite fide may think proper to bring forward, againfl the Right Hon. Gentleman below bias. It, however, afforded him much fatisfaaion to fee the Hon. Gentleman who brought forward the refolutions this night, affume a tone and manner fo different to that which he manifefted when he firft Mentioned his intention of inculpatiug the Right limn. Gentleman below him. From all that he then declared, he concluded, that he had determined to bring forward a refolution of &tea and unqualified henfure againft the Right Hon. Gentleman, whom he feented to with to implicate in the mil - conduit which had lately engaged fo much of the attention of that "LOUR. On a thusoei night, when a motion of cen. Ore was carried again* the violation of an A& of irliament, and that it was voted a high breach of duty, he reconciled that lome Gentlemen on the other fide of the :look. endeavoured to extend that canine to the Right Honourable Gentleman, and loudly exclaimed, that the country was governed by ' 4 di (*graced (*graced Adminiftration." Some of thofe Gen. tlemen had Since an opportunity of convincing them Selves that the epithet was ill applied, and he was happy to fee them adopt a tone and a manner, Suited to the evidence which appeared before that Commit. tee, of which they were fuch dillingnifhed members. The lion. Member who opened the debate was the leading member of- that Committee; be called for what e v thence he pleated, examined them as he liked, no obtlacle was thrown in his way, all the docu ments on the table were produced by his ingenuity and alliduity ; and it was not unfair to prefume, that the moderate tone of the refolutions he brought for. ward, was the effea of the dofe and Cautioning inveftigation which he made into the conduit of the Right Honourable Gentleman in certain parts of the matters teterred to that Committee. There were three diftina Etas which were the foundation of the Refolutions. The communication made to the Chancellor of the Exchequer by Mr. Raikes, the condua of the Treafory in the affair of Jellicoe, and the accommodation afforded to the houfe of Boyd and . Co. As to the firft point, it was comparatively of fmall importance, and therefore be fhould not take up the time of the Houle with any obfervations on it. As to the condo& of the Treafory with refpek to do debt due from Jellicoe, he did not think that negli gence was to be imputed to the Right Honourable I lief-et:man. The cultomary orders for enforcing p.iyment had been ifihed as loon as the defalcation wa, flitcovered, and it was not to be expeted that a hliiiiiier, fuperintending the molt important interefts of the country, could have leifute or opportunity for the confidcration of fuch trifling details. The as hommodation afforded to Boyd and Co. was not only jultifiable, but meritorious in a great degree. All the evidences agree as to the &bet's which prevailed among commercial men at that period, arifing from the Icareity of money, the impoftibility of rendering !ecutities of any kind available, and the ruin then Imptading over, and which &only afterwards did rail upon fome of the mutt rerpedable commercial etlablilhments. At loch a cribs could the Honoura. hie Gentleman have aeled otherwife towards a Houfe to iatonately connefted with the Government, nfing, as they did, the precaution to take ample Security for the accommodation they extended to that Houle.— But the Right Hon. Gentleman is ceafitred for nut having applied fora bill of indemnity: that certainly would have been more regular. Let, however, Gen tlemen call to recolleition the different eircumftances which occurred to prevent that application, and he was perfuaded they would fee no great caufe for cen lotng the negligence of the Right Honourable Gen tleman in that relpea. The Honourable Member hho moved the Refolutions, thought there would be '"' great difference of opinion as to the Refolutions. In that he could not concur with him. He could rot agree with him as to his mode of (toting the t 4 tis : and in the LA Ittfohrioa be did not think there was that poAtire erpretton of the exigency of the country at that period, which, to the knowledge, he believed, of every man in the Houle, exited to a very great degree. He would, therefore, move an I amendment, by propofing to put the previous quef- 1 Lion on all the Refolutions but the la, in the place of which, with the leave of the Hnufe, he would fubnitute the one he had prepared. The Honourable Member then read the Refolution, which was in fub- Rance, "That the advance of a loan of forty thou. (and pounds to the houfe of Boyd and Co. though not ftrietly conformable to law, was highly expedient in the exifling circumftances, and attended with the molt beneficial effeCts." Mr. HAWKINS BROWNE feconded the A mendment. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER then rofe and faid, if the Refolutions werodeemed of a criminating nature, he would withdraw (a loud cry of No !) The SPEAKER obferved, that the firft motion contained only a Ratement of fads. Mr. LASCELLES faid, by way of explanation, that if Gentlemen would permit the previous queftion to pars, a Bill of Indemnity might be moved on be half of his Right Hon. Friend. Mr. FOX faid, in reference to the ohfervation of the Right Hon. Gentleman, it was undoubtedly for himfelf to confider whether it would be proper to re tire. But it did not appear to his mind that there was any thing in the Refolutions propoted by his Hon. Friend of fuch a criminating nature, with refped to the Right Hon. Gentleman, as to luring his cafe with- 1 in the precedent alluded to. Before he entered into the fubjed of the debate, he begged leave to advert I to what had fallen from the Hon. Gentleman under the gallery (Mr. Lan:elks). That Hon. Gentleman had dated that his Hon. Friend had materially alter ed his tone fince the firft time this tranfadion was brought under the view of the Houfe, and the Hon. Gentleman took occalion to repeat Come words that Were ufed by him at the clofe of the debate on the Bth of April. Certainly he did fay, at that time, after the refolutions which the Houfe had paffed,that the country was then under a " difgraced Admini. aratiori," and he expreited his hope and will), that while in that fituation, no public battlers fhould be proceeded upon. But then this obfervation applied to Lord Melville, who, notwithllanding the crimina ting vote of that Houte, formed an effential part of the Adminiftration. If the Hon. Gentleman meant toinfmuate that the Right Hon. Gentleman, whofe condud was now the fubjed of debate, wa‘ condemn. ed before he was heard, or before any inquiry into his conduit took place, he could allure the Honour able Gentleman, that with refpeft to him, the infinu ation was totally unfounded ; or, if he would infer that any fuch difpofition at all exilted, he begged for himfelf to be excafed from the inference. Neither he, nor his Honourable Friend, the Mover of the re. (Motion before the Houfe, ever did, in any fpeech, diredly or indiredly, infinbate what would be the re, Cult of the inquiry before the Seidl Committee.— Indeed, in point of fad, none of the Gentlemen on his fide of the Houfe, ever did hint that the Right lion. Gentleman was at all involved in the snifcon daft of Lord Melville. The conneetion firft appear. ed from the ftatement of the Right Honourable Gen tleman himfelf, with refped to the 40,0001. ; and undoubtedly from that moment the Right Hon. Gen dentin was jull'y faid to be implicated in the delin quency of violating the law. But be never was tonfidered to be criminal in any degree beyond that which his own avowal naturally implied. And he allured the Right Hou. Gentleman that he fhould feel as fincerely lorry as any man in that Houfe if it had appeared, from the refult of this enquiry, that the Right Hon. Gentleman was guilty to the fame degree as Lord Melville. However much he might have differed from the Right Honourable Gentleman in the courfe of his political life—however he might have thought his general conduct deferving of blame —however he might think him blameable in this in (lance, yet be fhould feel uneafy and unhappy had it turned out, after the rank and Ration which the Right Honourable Gentleman Ind fo long held— after the oppofition even which he himfelf had felt it his duty to give him, that the Right Honourable Gentleman was perfonally corrupt. For himfelf, he could declare, that he never entertained fuch an opi. nion of him, and he was happy that the refult of the inquiry did not juftify the adoption of even a fenti ment of fufpicioo on that ground. Although he had frequently condemned the public conduft of the Right Hon. Gentleman—although he had on many occa (ions uttered fentiments refpeBing him which he would have felt it treafon againft his country and his confcience to fupprefs, Rill he never expreffed a fuf picion that the Right Hon. Gentleman was capable of perfonal corruption,nor did he ever entertain fuch a flifpicien. However he might charge him with that fpecies of corruption that attaches to general neglat of duty, his mind entirely acquitted the Right Hon. Gentleman of that kind of fordid corruption alluded to by the Hon. Gentleman under the Gallery.— But yet in the cafe under conlideratian of the Houfe, another queßion arofe. The Right Honourable Gen tleman appeared to him, on the &It mention of the tranfadion, with regard to Lord Melville, not to have paid a proper deference and attention to law, when lie was informed of its violation by Mr. Raikes. When information of that nature was communicated to him by any perfon whatever holding that office, which, in foreign countries, is denominated 44 S'ipen intendant of the Finance- 4 ' 4 it was juftly thought in cumbent on him to have inflituted an inquiry into the circumftances,and to have put a flop to the evil com plained of. From the Report of the Committee it Appeared that the Right Honourable Gentleman had made inquiry, and however unwilling he might feel to aggravate the cafe of Lord Melville, who was now ordered for trial, he could not help obferving, that he did not think it poffible that fuch an anfwer could have been given to inch an inquiry. The Right Honourable Gentleman's reliance on that an fwer, from the nature of the attrition held by Lord Melville, wad the conflation fublifting between him and the Right Honourable Gentleman, could not fairly be made the ground of cenfure, although the neglecting to inveßigate the Wines farther, betrayed rather a want of diligence. But • the circuintlance, however, of the Right Hon. Gentleman's giving cre dit to the Itatement of Lord Melville, although a matter of regret, was not a jug foundation for blame. No, but if the evidence on the table was correct, ache had ao doubt that it was.fatit flood oacootradifted 'any thing that came from toed Melville MRS& when l before the Houfe, the guilt of the Noble Lord was in an inverfe ratio to that of the Right Hon. Gentleman. Without entering into the queltion, whether, if the amount of the transfers from the Bank to the Houfe of Meffrs. Coitus, was bona Pe for the purport of carrying on the " details of office," fuch transfers would hose invclved a violation of the ad, as was his own opinion, this furely could be no queflion that the transfers that were actually made, were contrary to its fpirit and letter. But, however the Right Ho nourable Gentleman might Shand in this part of the fubjett, from his tuneable confidence in the word of Lord Melville, he was very differently circumftanced with refpea to the cafe of Jellicoe. Lord Melville's tendernefs to that than might form, on the (core of humanity and juftice, force claim to the confideration of the Lords of the Treafury. But the complaint was, that the Noble Lord did, in his endeavour to obtain the writ of Privy Seal, Rate that which was not fad, and that the Treafury Board did eel on mil reprefentation without inquiry. Lord Melville, it appeared, Rated in his memorial that Jellicoe's debt was contracted before he entered into office, whereas the fa& was, that much the greater part of it ac crued after he became Treafurer of the Navy; and Rill more, that, after the indifcretion and debt of Jclli coe was communicated to Lord Melville,hecontinued to entruft him. Now there was this marked differ ence between the cafe of a Noble Friend of his (Lord Grenville) for whom it was impoffible for him to feel any other fentiment than that of reepett, and the cafe of Jellicoe, to which the Right Hon. Gentleman pro. felled to confider it quite analogous, that Lord Glen vine, after the money was embezzled, roofed no farther confidence in the perfon who was guilty, and made no falfe Ratement, while, in the inftance of Lord Melville, the conduct purfued was directly the reverfe. The blame then which attached to the Right Honourable Gentleman in the cafe of Jellicoe con fided in this, that he granted Lord Melville an ac qnittance upon falfe ground', and in an unpre cedented manner, for a debt due to the public.— Now as to the 40,0001. lent to Mr. Boyd, he con fiders this tranfaCtion contrary, not only to ftatute law, but to the fpirit of the conftitution, and the prin ciples of common fenfe. Nay more, there were on the journals feveral Refolutionsexprefsly condemning the mifappropriation of naval money. Every man therefore, mutt be aware of the impropriety of loch a practice. Indeed he was one of thrift who always thought that the law thould not be difpenfed with by any power, unlefs where the neceffity was fo urgent, that to Whin from loch difpenfation, would be a higher breach of duty than the violation of tits law itfelf would involve. The quetlion then was, whe ther the cafe of Boyd, was fuch as to teflify a devi ation from the general rule ? When fir ft the reafon of this loan was Rated, it really (truck him with fur prize. It appeared a molt extraordinary taftnfaCtion. What ! that the credit of the Government fhould be fuppofed to depend on a loan of 40,0001. If the Go vernment really flood in fuch a fituation, which was to be collected from the general arguments of the Right Hon. Gentleman, when he Rated as a reafon for avoiding inquiry, that if any delay took place, the evil might become remedilefs, then much as was ge nerally faid about delicacy of commercial credit, public credit was (till more delicate. The Right Hon. Gentleman had Rated that Boyd could not obtain money in the market for the fecurities he produced to Government, s , in conlequence of the fcarcity of cant, and general embarraffment that thee prevailed," and yet,' firange to tell, it was not above three weeks afterwards, when his Majelty, in a fpeech from the throne, congratulated the country on the profperous Rate f its marsufaaures, commerce, and rapidly growing wealth. The precedent of filch a loan was molt alarmingly mifchievous, and mutt, if fuffered to be acted upon, ellablifh a degree of arbitrary power in a Minifler. What if it Should he under- Rood that a Miniller (hail have the difcretion of ad vancing the public money to merchants, for their ac commodation, upon any conception that he might. form of their neceffity, or to prevent any potlible evil that his extravagant fancy might fuppofe, could there be any fecurity for onr freedom ? How liable would Inch practices be to interfere with the purity of that Houfe, and even with the independence of the mer cantile world. For, it would be very unlikely that any Merchant, independent of Miniflers, would par ticipate of fuels accommodations. There were many failures of great mercantile houfes in the City at the time Boyd received this aid, and upon what principle fhould fuch aid be granted to one Houfe, and refufed to another ? If it were really neceffary to lend the public money, why not apply to Pattie ment for its concurrence, as in the cafe of the Weft India Merchants, Come years ago ? Nothing of the kind fhould be done without an Aft of Parliament : the confequence of permitting it mutt be obvious.— It was very juftly aneed, if the Right Hon. Gen tleman felt the neceffiry of the cafe to be fo ftrong, that he was confident of jollification. why did he did not apply to Parliament for an ad of indemnity ? but the Right Honourable Gentleman laid, that he could not at the time the loan was made without a &filo lure, that mutt defeat the (shied in view. This was an argument, however, that did not avail after the temporary ember ra ffment of Boyd's boufe had ceafed, when they had become fo flourithing as to be trufted by Government with a large fum of money to be re mitted to the Cape of Good Hope. It would have been no difgrace to Boyd's houfe to reveal the circum (lances of the loan at that time. Bui aftei the total failure of the bode no motive of delicacy'could be pretended to ex& In the part of the Right Honour. able Gentleman's fpeech which referred to this point, he could not help obferving, that there was much to complain of and even to deplore. The Right Hon. Gentleman declared, that he felt no compunction for the act. There was really lomething very extraordi nary in the declaration—that a Hinifier who violated a law for purpofes of private expediency felt no bur then on his confcience—that he who was cottoned with a principal office in the execution of the law, &mild refleet, without pain, on a grofs breach of provifions. The thing was not, as his Honourable Friend ( Mr. Whitbread). had truly Rated, to be heard. without furprife and indignation in any Government of law, but particularly in this country. The Right Honourable Gentleman had Rated, at one time, that when the bankruptcy took place the-a,& of indemnity did not occur to him. But why did it not occur to him If the Right Honourable Gentleman were not in the habit of tmkintfuch.ufsof,tha public money, which he Was not incened to belie*, and that thh was the only cafe that had been deteded, one would tutu rally fuppofe that the indemnity fhould have occur red to him, ;Ind it was a had fymptom of his govern ment that he was not anxious to obtain it. But it might be laid that he confidered the application to Parliament unnecefftry, as he hoped the tranCadien would remain a fecret. In this hope, if the Right Honourable Gentleman entertained it, he had been difappointed, and he trofled that this would ferve as an example that the tranfgrefflon of the law was not likely to remain a fecret, for after nine years conceal ment, the malverfation before the Houfe was brought to light. Indeed, the miCappropriation of the public money was a thing that was never known to have efcaped deteftion, at come time or other. With the exception of the mood. mentioned by Lord Melville a few nights (ince, that was a cafe pettedly fui gesseriz.. But the fait was, that the loan of th.. ao,o - 001. being known to many perfons, was not likely to remain a ferret, and as a fecret precedent might operate con fiderable mifchief. For what might be the conk. quence on a fucceffor of the Right Honourable Ger. demon, who, from his example, might be induced to make Golder loans. Such a fueceffor might be told, " there Mr. Pitt, who was reflrefented by his friends, and as admitted by his enemies, to be.perfedly free from perfonal corruption, lent 40,0001. of the pub lic money to accommodate •an individual, how can you helitate to do the fame ?" So much as to precedents in fecrecy, which really might be more dangerous than public precedents. However, the idea refpeding money did not apply to the refolution before the Houfe ; for, although this aft was fecret before, it was now become a matter of publicity and, therefore, tome proceeding to guard againit the operation of fuch a precedent, ought to be adopted. In conSidering the courfe that ought to be adopted on this occafion, it was his defire to diflinguiflt the motive from the aft. He had already Paid, that he acquitted the Right Hon. Gentleman of any degree of perfonal corruption, and of courfe did not mean to impeach his motive in this tranfadion, but his ob. jet wins to provide againft Inch an aft growing into a precedent ; and be really thought that in candour the Right Hon. Gentleman himfelf would admit the propriety of fuch a provifion. If the Houfe Should proceed beyond that—if any cenfure Should be pro nounced, it was his with that fuch cenfiare thould be as mild as words could convey—for nothing appeared to him more effential in moral juftice than to keep a marked lineof diflinetion between the different degrees of delinquency in the diftribution of puniOsment—that crimes of high enormity Should not be confound ed with thole to which but a flight degree of blame was attributable. It was in his judgment as culpable to apply fevere cenfure to a flight delinquency, as to fuller a flagrant offender to efcape with impunity.— He particularly wifhed, that under elating circum 'Lances, the Houfe Should keep in view the diftindion be alluded to. It was far from his intention, or that of his Hon. Friend, to follow the courfe of thole pro ceedin.gs from any thing like party feelings. He troll ed that the Houfe and the country would do juftice to the motives that aftuated their profecution of great public delinquency,and feparate thefe motives altoge ther from any thing like party animofity. With refped to the different modes of proceeding recommended in this cafe, the Honourable Gentleman declared that, if his Honourable Friend's propolitions fhould not be adopted, he would prefer a Bill of Indemnity, in the preamble to which the fenfe of the Hoofs might be to fully and ftrongly expreffed as to guard agaiutt the precedent complained of. Lord CASTLEREAGH did not with, nor feel it neceffary to argue the general queftion at any length, conceiving that, on the general view of the fulled, there was no material difference of opinion, that might not eafily beaccommodated. He acknowledged the candour and moderation with which the original Refolutions had been brought forward by the Hon. Mover, and alfo the Hon. Member who fupported his motion; and was lure it mull be latisfadury tp the Houfe, as well as to his Right Hon. Friend, who had alfo acknowledged it. The only difference be tween the motion propofed by the Hon. Gentleman who introduced the debate,and that of his Honourable Friend behind him (Mr. Lafcelles) was, that the for mer did nut fo fully Skate the fads, nor recognize the ncceffity upon which the aft was done. He thought the motion propofed by his lion. Friend much more to the purpofe, and that that coupled with a bill of indemnity, and a few words an amendment, (hating, that the inftance Should not be drawn into precedent, would meet the object of both fides of the Houfe. Mr. ROSE vindicated the conduit of his Right Hon. Friend (Lord Melville) and the Lords of the Treafury, on the filbjed of Mr. Jellicoe's a , and Dated that Mr. Jellicoe had not been originally em. ployed by Lord Melville, nor had his arrear accrued under his immediate adminiltration in that depart. ment, and that the whole of his property had been fold under an extent towards making good his de ficiency. Lord GLENBERVIE admitted he was a Lord of the Treafury at the time of fuch minute, but he could not fay pofitively, whether he was prefent or not when it was made. His only reafon for fuppoting that he was not prefent was, becaufe he was habitually abfent from the Board in that year. He did not think, however, that any blame attached to him on that ac count, as, though the Lords of the Treafury were five in number, three contlituted a perm for all purpofes of Wines, and he was occupied at the time more ofefully for the public. (Dwi'g ibefe two fperehes the .9"9ies war loud!, calla! for.) Mr. SHERIDAN—" I rife to afk only a Singly queftion, the anfwer to which may fare the time of the Houfe. The quellion is, whether, in the event of adopting the Refolution of the Right Hon. Gen. tleman (Mr. LaCcelles) it be not his intention to ground upon it a. Bill of Indemnity ?" Mr. H. LASCELLES anfwered, that it would Fe Rill in the power of the Houle to pals a Bill of In. dernnity, and that the Refolution, if adopted, mit;ht be made the preamble of the Bill. Mr. GREY—" I do not with to move any Refilled '[ion that might affect the honour, the charafter, or the feelings of the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr Pitt). I rife merely to propote a raeafule that may anfwer the views of all parties. Ido not agree to the Retest lotion of the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. H. Lea celles),becaufeitisnotfofficiently full,anddoesnot ade ,quately defcribe the fedi of the cafe, and alto beteg& $4 conveys an implied, If not a dire& approbation of coaciatt Ora Right Hoa.Gestletaas (Ms. Pitt). MIMI