Star. — London, England, 1818-03-03 00:00:00

s maller reanctizad this year to the amount of ' Istme 12001. that sum would not be the whole ac t l difference in pe'oi of char g e. siout •In other o ffi ces ga *re %vertur a l so s ome small variations . In that of the General, the reductions amounted to 31 11 5 5/ ter- . in -ast cOn - sequence of that office being demo and its business transferred to the War Office, 41 had made some a dditi o nal char g e necessary in i ast .mentioned department. In the Medicid De na there was unfortunately a considleable ter unavoidable :acreage, to the amount of 11,500/. x * l l was occasioned by the stores to be purchased t paid for. In the Royal Military College there an increase of 2,6451. but the actual increase - 40 i. more than this, that sum being found ne to ; complete the building, and a similar sum be necessary for the same object for the next ; but after that, there would be an annual re ewe o { eOOOl. w hile a diminution had already , gr eet ed in that establishment, to $e amount of spp;,*eyear. In the pay of General Officers there • been a reduction of 2,1091. arising principally d:,4ths, and a proportionate sum in the half. of the same class. In the foreign half-pay there been an increase of 3,9001. In the Chelsea and 'am Hospita}s the increase was 101,0001. but am was tut be deducted for prize-money. ties in the last four years had amounted to int there wits every reason to expect that be by no means so considerable in future. iitarT Asylum the diminution was 1,5641. pareonate List and Warrants, 1,6961. The ijutants of Militia had caused an increase The reduction on account.of the troops amounted to 175,0001. In the Regiments Indies there had been a small increase. tole, in point of charges, there had been a 188,0001. while the charges were less alto -418,0001. The reductions in all the stations .;664 men less than in the Estimates 41 last The Noble Lord then made a brief recapitu c the principal items, and concluded wi% at there be granted to his Majesty 113,640 the British Army in France, for the East : Indies, and for our other establishments at I abroad. iLCRAFT said he did not clearly under- Noble Lord's statement. Bat at all events t the whole amount of the army was larger required. There were more for some, if the services than were required. 'There :al thousand men more than were ever -essary before in the old stations, though lot say they were too many now. But in itions he thought some concessions should The parts of the army in Great Britain I were both tco numerous. The number ten were nut necessary for service in Great the year 1792 we had only 15,000 me n service. He could not see why, when we trge arthy in France to keep peace, 26,000 dd be necessary to do what 15,000 did in was not satisfied that an increase of . were necessary for this purpose, and thereforemove an amendment for thei r reduc vas painful to place men in the situation rs would be in when reduced ; but the other duties to perform. Was there any state ilk our finances that should induce up a ftle battalion'inore than was ne- The great difficulty did not lie so much in as here, where we had to pay the inte national debt, and where Money was in icult to be got. Now, with respect to 4000 men, it was said, were not too many ; that had been beard of the state of Ireland, lot conceive why the Peace Establishment double the amount that was necessary ; for notwithstanding the great privations and vhich the people had suffered, was asserted liarly tranquil and pacific. However, as Lord had confined hiinself to simple de iould not now originate a debate, but he , that it was his intention, on the ptesen the Report, to move for a further reduction : nine thousand men. W. RIDLEY wished to call the attention imittee to one part of the I::•,:intate, watch . deserving of censure. He alluded to the aggon Train, which was of no use, and of troop was kept up, as if this expense were neeuence to the country. The whole ex , this train was 30,3131; which was 50001. or more than any regiment of dragoons cost the Another item that might be reduced was Ls. There was a great increase in the esti the charges for Medicines, and there was a Sle charge for the support of the Botanical St. Vincent's, though he could not tell had to du with the department of the Se-, War. In the Military College there dare is of charge for pensions, to the amount of ig an increase of 2501. on that of the year e But in an establishment of so short a an increase of pensions ought to be guarded There was another charge of a pension of ske retired Barrack-Master-General. He ;is deserving of some explanation. ALMERSTON, in reply, justified the lance of the Waggon Train, as they were in breaking horses for the troops in France; part of them were employed on the Royal (anal, and some of them were attached to on the Continent, where they were useful ig forage carts, and conveying sick to the The - Recruiting Staff was not more than nary ; for each district must have its re- Field-Officer, Paymaster, and o ;elerjeant, to to men. He did not think a.tt economy ise from diminishing these systems, and ; would be incurred on account of the re tore final inspection, than would equal the ising from the reduction. As to the Bota- Jen at St. Vincent's, it was established at nice of Sir George Yonge, when Secretary and it had been ever since under the super -of his successors. The Garden was under :roul of the Medical Establishment, for the of cultivating medical plants, but an inquiry • going on to ascertain if the establishment really useful, and if not, it would be relin- The per sions on the Military College were . 'fellors, who were entitled to them after a ser of fifteen years. The addition arose from the 'einem cf a Gentleman who had been seventeen ll* this esublialiment. As to the Barraclo•Mas- ter General's pension, although it was voted, it had not been issued, and le' believed it was intended to apply it to the balance he owes to Government. The 96,000 men for the Home station were not prcifessed I to be applicable to the home service only, fur tiam bers were to be deducted for the supply of foreign 1 garrisons. Nobody would contend that they ought to be doomed to perpetual banishment; therefore it wits necessary to send out reliefs every year; and if every regiment were relieved only every ten years, it would take about 3,300 men annually from the home service, and a lower number than would be left would not be sufficient for home defence. Be I sides, as it was essential that fresh garrisons should , occasionally ke sent out, there must be between four , and 5,000 men sent in the course of every year, in stead of 3,300. The numerical amount of our forces abroad could not be allowed to fall below the num ber assigned, and the non-effectives must fall on the , numbers at home. Then g, besides this, were de 'ducted the forces for our lands in the Channel, the number for Great Britain would be found not to ex ceed 18,000 or 19,000 men. The Honourable Gen tleman would then see that the difference between 1792 and now would not practically give him more than 18,000 or 19,000 men, and could it be said that , the alteration in our circumstances and relations did not sufficient'v justify this difference? WARRE made a few remarks in corrobora tion of the opinion, that while we had so large an army in France, we had less occasion for such an, establishment at home. Mr. PEEL justified the Estimate for Ireland.— When he reverted to the circumstances of Ir...land for the list five years, and remembered that it was ne cessary to maintain twenty-five thousand regular troops in that country, he could not but feel highly gratified, that the people, who had undergone such extreme privations, were now in such a state, that it was only necessary to keep to twenty thousand men in arms there, more to prevent illicit practices than for other reasons. This, he thought must afford un mixed satisfaction to every man who reflected on it. That this number was still necessary, must rest on the responsibility of those who were actuated by a sincere desire to make every possible reduction. Even in the time of Lord Townsend (1767) it was deemed necessary to maintain fifteen thousand men in Ireland ; and when the force that it has been ne cessary to keep there for the last - eight years was considered, it was impossible to compare it with the present reduction without the greatest gratification. In the course of the present year there had been a reduction of three thousand yeomanry in Ireland, and the whole reduction relating to Ireland produced a diminution of 211,0001. below the establishment of last year. Since the peace of Amiens a very consi derable force had been maintained there, which had almost exclusively been devoted to the maintenance of the public tranquillity, by aiding the civil power. The amount of force at the peace of Amiens was twenty-two thousand men ; and from the 10th of February, 1816, the reduction had been from forty four thousand - to twenty thousand. He was happy to say that Ireland was in a state of general tranquil lity, and it was not possible to pay too high a tri bute to the people for the fortitude with which they had submitted to privations and distress. Happily the Executive Government had been enabled .to grant them pecuniary aid for the relief of the most poor and distressed. This had been given to the amount of thirty-seven thousand pounds and had been productive of the best effects; and he was per fectly satisfied it was impossible for such a benefit to be received with greater gratitude than by these poor people. He could riot go so far as to say that there was complete tranquillity in all parts of Ire land. Some excesses would, of course, frequently happen, but they were few in number to what they used to he. The extension of the civil power had been highly advantageous, and the more it continued to be extended, the more would the military power be dispensed with. In proof of the improved disposi tion of the people. the Right Honourable Gentleman observed, that though the Insurrection Act had passed last year, it had nor been found necessary to put it in execution. On the whole, therefore, he congratulated the House on being enabled to dispense with five thousand men from an establishment pro pelled so lately as 1816. S t ir WILLIAM BURROWES denied the necessity of the foree•now:proposed for Ireland, and alluded to the time of the Atherican war, when only 5,000 men *ere allowed, though that country was oily threatened with invasion ; therefore the Right Hon. Gentleman had no right to suppose the effective force was near so much as he had said. If there had been discontents in Ireland, they has arisen from the oppressions of this Goiernment, and they ever would be resisted. He would advise them to beware how they irritated the feelings of such a people under the calamities that afflicted them. The vote was only for four thousand men less than last year. The amount of the .revenue last year was 51,000,000/. and the expenditure 65,000,0001. The deficiency was therefore 14,000,0001. If, then, there was this deficiency, where would it end ? The Nob Lord had not held Alt a hope of any farther reduction in future years, and 4,200 men was the whole of the reduction promised on. the face of this estimate, out of 90,000. If this were all the deduction to be made from an establishment that cost us 6,000,0001. up to this very hour, was it possible that the country would be able to provide for such a force ? If the public faith were to be violated by any appropriation of the Sinking Fund, or if a new Property Tax were to be levied in any shape, they might then find the means, but they could not obtain them otherwise ; and there fore we must despair of any reduction of expense, except by the reduction of the estimates. This mili tary force was really enormous in the present state of the country. Last year the yeomanry in Irelar.d was 44,000, and now great men it was assumed for having reduced it 3,000. But where was the yeo manry force before the war ? There was none.— Thus 44,000 yeomanry and 25,000 regulars made 69,000 soldiers kept up in Ireland only, in time of with all the world. This was most serious. place Honourable Baronet proceeded to animadvert on the numbers allowed for the relief of foreign pr risons, and various minor items, all of which he con sidered larger than necessity required. Mr. BAIIIMITON arid Mr. LONG expressed'.. /dire: ,to correct some e4i in the payment of thepensioiss at Chelsea, by which the families or the pens ioners would be nuterially benefited. Mr. FPRI3ES wished that a list of the officers who received pensions for wounds had not been laid on 'the table ; and 'regretted that in respect to pensions the Officers of the Navy were riot placed on an equal footing with the Officers of the Army; and stated that he feared there were many cases of abuse In the gran ting of pensions to the latter. Lord PALMERSTON observed th.,t it was not usual to lay on the table such a list as that alluded to by the Hon. Gentleman, but that if the Hon. Gen tleman thought proper to move for it, he would make no objection to its production ; observing, however, that it would take a long time to mate out, and could not be submittPd to the House in time for the discussion and decision on the subject. He denied that there was any partiality shewn to the Army with respect to pensions. Pensions were granted to the Officers of each service by departments wholly un connected with one another ; so that anx thing like partiality was oat of the question. As to any abuses, in the granting of Pensions to the Officers of the Army, he had in consequence of shat had been said in that House last Session, invaFtigated the subject minutely, and he had not b een able to discover a single instance of such abuse. Mr. FORBES observed, that he had heard of se veral cases of gross abuse. Lord PALIERSTON requested the Honourable Member to communicate those eases to him in pri vate, and pledged himself, th a t if he found that any pension had been withdrawn which ought to be corm tinned, or that any pension was continued which ought to have been withdrawn, he would endeavour to rectify the error. Sir FREDERICK FLOOD expressed his high satisfaction at what had fallen from the Noble Vis count and the Right Honourable Gentleman with respect to the loyalty and good disposition of Ire land, and the patience with which the people of that country had endured the various hardships and pri vations to which they had beep subjected. There was no more sincere friend of Ireland than himself ; indeed, whoever was not a friend to both countries could not be a friend to either. He was as indepen dant a man as any in that House, being bound to adhere to nekher side of it. He never had received an/ thing, and he looked for nothing from any party. He would, therefore, be the last man to agree to any act of that House which he considered unjust or op pressive towards his native country. But he was bound to say, that he did not think the vote of 20,000 men for Ireland extravagant. They were dispersed over the country, and their weight was not felt. The whole people of Ireland, without any reference to re ligion, were loyal. Of this fact the late war afforded abundant proof. Half our marine in the late war was composed of Irish Catholics; and a great part of our army of Irish Catholics and Protestants; and he knew of no single instance among them of desertion and. disloyalty. The attachment of that country should be fostered.—" Ireland," exclaimed the Ho nourable Baronet, " is the righturm of the Empire. If you lose Ireland, what will become of you? You ought to embrace her with both arms to the and of time, as your neariest and dearest friend." Se Resolution was then agreed to. Lord PALMERSTON proceeded to propose the Resolutions for granting the following sums, which were severally put and agreed to : X 2,471,141 17 4 fur defraying the charges of the Land Forces in Great Britain and abroad, with the exception of those in France and the East Indies, from the 24th Dec. 1817 to the 24th Dee. 1818. 817,234 12 0 for defraying the charges of the Land Forces in Inland for the same period 116,707 14 0 for defraying the expenses of the General and Staff Officers of the Land Forces in Great Britain and Abroad, with the exception of those in France and the Indies, for the same period. 33,860 0 0 for defraying the expenses of the General and Staff Officers of the Land Forces in Ireland, fur this seine period. 137,365 1 0 for Allowances to the principal Officiss of certain Departments, their Deputies and Clerks in Great Britain, for the same period. 8,847 15.0 for Allowances to the principal Officers of certain Departments, their Deputies, and Clerks in irelant, for the same period. 27,650 0 0 for medicines and surgical materials for the Land Forces and Hospitals in Great Britain. 10,061 0 0 for the same in Ireland. 92,000 0 0 for the Volunteer Corps in Great Britain. 31,347 0 0 for the Volunteer Corps in Inland. 855,419_19_6 for the charges of the Land Forces in France. 21,275 10 0 the expenses of Recruiting Corps for Foreign and East India Service. 25,514 15 9 for the Royal Military College. 175,672 0 0 for the Pay of General Officers of the Land Force. in Great Britain, not being Colonels of Regiments. 2,263 0 0 for the Pay of General Officers of the hold Force. in Ireland, not being Colonels of Regiments. 26,439 13 0 for the Charges of Garrisons at Home and Abroad on the Establishment of Great Britain. 7,159 0 st for the Charges of Garrisons on the Establishment of Ireland. 149,009 9 0 fur the Full Pay of Retired Officers of the I.And Forces in Great Britain. 3,601 0 0 for the Full Pay of Retired Officers of the Land Forces ia Ireland. 601,730 0 0 fur the Half Pay of the Reduced Officers of the Land Forces of Great Britain. 50 t 173 0 0 for the Half Pay of the Reduced Officers of the Land Forces in Ireland. g 8,570 0 0 fur Military Allowances to the Reduzed Officers of the Land Forces in Great Britain. 3t97 0 0 for Reduced ()firers in Ireland. 136,300 0 Moe !Wired Foreign Officers. 42,050 0 or the In-Pensioners of the Royal Hospital at Chelsea. 17,719 0 0 for the In-Pensioners of the Royal Hospital at Kilinainharn. 872.930 0 0 for the Out-Pensioners of she Royal Hospital ' at Chelsea. 190,133 0 0 for the Out-Pensioners of the Royal Hospital at Ki 32,950 0 0 for the Royal Military Asylum at Chelsea. 80,430 0 0 for Pensions to the Widows of Officers of the Land Forces and Marines on the Establishment of Great Britain. 18,418 11 5 for Pensions to the Widows of OfEcelTsoltise Lord Forces and Marines on the Rstablishment of Ireland. 161,606 3 9 for Allowances on the Compassiumite List, Ms Majesty's Royal Bounty, &c. 27,660 4 2 for Superansuations to Officers retired from several Public Departments in Great Britain. 7,100 0 0 for Superannuations to Officers retired from several Public DepsAmenu in Ireland. 55,000 0 0 for Fees paid into Exchequer on account of the Establishment in Great Britain. 82,114 0 0 for Corps existing in Great Britain, which it is pro posed to reduce in the course of the year 1818. 11,3114 0 0 for Corps existing in Ireland, which it is proposed • to reduce it the course of the year 1818. Qr. the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EX CHEQUER, Resolutions for granting to his Ma jesty the following sums were put and agreed to: .02,ty71,0n0 o 0 fur Discharging the Interest of Exchequer Bills, Irish Treasury Bill., at:d Mint Notes. 1 1 085,815 7 84 for Paying off a;:ci Discharging Treasury Bills issued for the service cf Ireland iu the year 1818. (is pur pcane, of the Act a the 64,th of Coco. ILL chap. 47.) out s o r.air.g and unprusid,cl £500,000 0 0 being the hundredth part 91 . 56,090,04101. cd . it:- chequer Bins, authorised by 'an Act of yet Stssion to be issued on the Aids of the present year, to b.: paid in equal quarterly payments to the Governor and Company of the Bonk of Faiglaud, to be by thcm placed to the account et' the Conuniadoners for the Reduction of the National Dot. On the motion that the Chairman should report these Resolutions to the House, Mr. WARM!: wished to know what were the in tentions of the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, with respect to the sums to be c o n t r ib ute d by this country towards the .repair of the fortifications in the Ne therlands ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that he should have had to propose a vote of one million thin year, and one million the nert, for the purpose adverted to by the Honourable Gentleman, were it not that the British Government had some counter claims on the Government of the Nether lands, which would reduce the .millions to about 700,0001. He trusted, however, that ultimately this expense would not fall cn Great Britain. Mr. WAR RE observed, that by the Treaty with France a sum was especially assigned by that coxn try, for the repair of these fortifications. Was the grant for which the Right Hon. Gentleman expressed his intention at some future period to move, to be in addition ? . The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that certainly such an appropriation was reserved in the stipulations with respect to the French contribu tion. A great part of it had been already expended. The grant forwhich he should move would be in addition, and he was persuaded the Hon. Gentle man would feel the importance of the purpose for which it was designed. Mr. WARRE fully admitted the importance of the purpose. Mr. SHAW wished to know what amount of the French contribution would be receivable this year, and whether any of it would be applicable to the ser vice of this country ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER re plied, tha - . he could not hope that any part of the French payments of the present year would be appli. cable to the service of this country. All that could be expected was the maintenance of the Army of Occupation, and a contribution towards the repairs of the fortifications in the Netherlands. The Motion for the Chairman's leaving the Chair was then agreed to, and the House having been re sumed, the Report was ordered to be received to morrow. The Kihnainhatn Hospital Bill and the Office Indemnity Bill, were read a third ilbse and passed. ABOLITION OF IRISII JAIL FEEL. Mr. PEEL moved for leave to bring in a Bill for the Abolition of Jail Fees in Ireland. Sir FREDERICK FLOOD considered the Bill as one of great humanity. Leave was given, and the Bill was afterwards brought in, read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time this day fortnight, and to be printed. ,• :9 1y4 to c • eI, and it 'cb had n • l as t.trien ,ment th •:nehunay. tp seas ( paid fa s an into 7501. m. ! sari to co cull be ne ear; but at . ..lotion of con effected a - Yd• d been a d:aths, of the s ti been an mainham urge sul casualci ! sopa be i, ese could the Milt the Comp , seed Adj 1,6001 s France ax the East: the whc. • ving of ll ther by 4 ere 21,664 ear. The don of t eying th; ea, for tl d West I me and a )Ir. CAI -id the N thought -In was re tall oft ere severs night need t would no new stet made. 1 Ireland '25,956 me In i• this tervi I a large should He :,030 men uld theref It wa • Officeri se had u g in the to keep u •? T. y starter of our y diffic 20,C ohm wit • could not .ould be dt and, not stresses wZ peculi: Noble •Is, he she ..ld say, Hon of the eight or Sii X W the Com thought :111 Wa hicb one g ao cons ense of ti t I.XII. mot recruit a'.es of th - .Fiderabl srden at • 24t this h •-•ary at 1 • 7.e items a bei ng • .ceding. lcling, a , 51. to I • "fight thi i Lord Pi :tenant • i s. t i et . pax tar ,' Ct e Army t drawing twees s• ..itin g g the 01:d a x i s eloss v • its b e i m og arisi • Gard, nuta nc War, ati deuce cont em of 110 W g, ••• realic h .4hd • • Profess ( e of fiftt • !eine m 441 nit th B,A.XIC TOKENS. The CIIANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, in pursuance of notice, moved for leave to bring in a Bill to suspend the penalties for receiving Bank To kens in certain cases, after the 25th of March instant. The object of this Bill was to afford various means after the general circulation of these tokens was stop ped, for their being still received for various purposes. If Gentlemen going down to Quarter Sessions would but take a bag of silver with them to enable them to take in exchinge Bank Tokens from the poor la bourers in their neighbourhood, much might be done for the Public. He supposed, from the extraordinary facility given last year in the issuing of the new silver coinage to the taking the old silver, the Public ex pected this year some similar arrangement. They did not reflect on the difference between the two cases. As Government did not issue these Tokens, it could not be expected to enter into a complicated and expensive arrangement for receiving these tokens in exchange for silver coin. In this Bill, he proposed that provision should be made fur allowing any per son to pay or receive Bank Tokens 12 months after the 25th of March for taxes. Provision in lite than . - ner would be made for allowing them to be taken for rent. In these cases, and all others where the Tokens were not passed in general circulation but paid to individuals fur the purpose of being ulti mately remitted to London, he proposed the penalties should be suspended. They would see how far this measure answered the purpose he had in view, of withdrawing the Bank Tokens from circulation, with as little inconvenience as possible to the Public. Mr. F. LEWIS stated, that the current price of silver that day was .ss. 6d. an ounce ; and frcm the state of our paper currency the price of silver must rise still higher. If it should reach ss. Bd. or ss. 9d. an ounce, the silver currency would gradually dimly. pear. Fortunately for the country a considerable part of the Bank tokens were still in circulation. If these tokens, however, shohld be withdrawn from cir culation, and in consequence of the rise of silver the other currency should go to the melting-pot, they might still probably be Obliged to have again recourse to the Bank to issue a coinage of their own. He thought that in these matters a great want of fore sight prevailed—they did not even grope their way— they took no measures to avoid the danger, but al lowed themselves to run blindly on it. It was pro bable we should soon lose our silver coinage, and the expense to which that coinage had put the country. General THORNTON thought encouragement should be given to the circulation of Bank Tokens for a year longer. Mr. 001 IN SMITH believed that the Bank had the means of affecting the exchanges by the emission of bullion. He could not help thinking, th at t h ey would endeavour by such an emis s ion to protect thc public from the mischiefs to which a high price of gold and silver must expose them. Sir M. RIDLEY said, if the Receivers of Taxes rw mitted the Bank* Tokens directly to London. conside rable relief would be given to the public ; but if, after receiving Tokens for taxes, they paid them in to the Country Banks, the relief would fall short of the general expectation. • He could not help thinking it advisable that they should be allowed to circulate for a longer period. Mr. GItENFELL thought that Silver would rather fall than rise; however, if it rose higher, it'would drive the silver to the melting pot. But he wished to ask if theeffect of the Bin would norbe to con tinue the Tokens in circulation? He believed that ao penalty could be enforced after the 25th of March. It :,, 11, 4 il 1 l i ' i I. ,I !.* . , . . , . 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