Star. — London, England, 1802-02-09 00:00:00

• - - fares rather too premature. The Hon. Gentle man expreffed a with that the account alluded to (liquid be read in every marketplace in the min try; he atTured him that filch was his with confident that it would meet the public approba• lion. It muff be manill9, that the excels, which upon this occalion the Houfe was called upon to provide for, arofc from the extraordinary expellee of the Army and Navy on the expedition to Egypt, The navy debt contraOed within the lall year, in confequence of that expedition, exceeded that of the year am by the fum of 367, 000 1. ; only for that expediti on b e was decidedly of opi nion it would have been left. When in June laa he applied for the vote of credit for 2,000,c001. he was not aware that it would be now neceffary to apply to Parliament for a further fum to defray the expenses of the laa year. He Rated confident -Iy, and without flizme, that he was not aware of it—for it was then the opinion of the molt expe- Tiowt.: military men, that the Egyptian expedition would not Lift fa long. Another part of the ex traordinary expence of laft year was incurred by the preparations for internal defence, which Go vernment thought' it neceffary to make in conic quence of the equipments .on the coal of France, apparently menacing this country; menaces which fome people regarded too highly, and others too lowly—again( which, however, it was the duty of Government to guard. This, with the butinefs of Egypt, formed three-fourths of the extraordinary expellees of the left year, and it mutt be in the coaderation of the Houfe, that a great part of the navy cebt was occafioned by the enhanced price of all articles for vianalling, which, under the management of thofe elevated - charaaers who bad the direaion of his Majefty's Navy, were, doubtlets, obtained on terms as advantageous as the Rate of the times would admit. He begged Gentlemen to point out the particular items of the account to which they objc6ed, and rot ad ranee general charges which could not fo well be refuted. einrited the Hon. Gentlemen on the cppolite fide to Rate their objeitions fully. He called upon them to invelligate the accounts thoroughly, and %rinsed them to fatisfy themfelves upon every item, adding,that he would be happy to give them every explanation in his power. Mr. Morrie and the CNAIICELLOR of the Ex cwegpxa feverally explained. Mr. Ts BIM IT laid, be (hould be forry to trouble the Haute with many obfervations, but the Hon. Gentliman (Mr. Martin) mull forgive him if he could not give way to thofe jealouties of his Ma lefty's Minillers, which tome Gentlemen teemed inclined to entertain, whilft he taw no eau& for any filch jealotify. He was fure his Hon. Friend would not fay, that mere fufpicion was to authorize an Hon. Gentleman to rejea, without a dole and fedulous examination, accounts, that were brought before Parliament. Befides, in the account before the Houfe, was included money which was to be confidered as impreffed for certain Cervices, and of which an account was am to be given. With re fpea to the army extraordinaries, the Hottfe now flood in a different fituation to what it formerly did :—formerly the army extraordinaries were not known until the amount of the adual expence in curred was brought before Parliament ; now it Is as known that they. wfatll.4 be army extraordi naries, and they were provided for accordingly. The late Chancellor of the Exchequer bad altered the mode formerly adopted by bringing down an climate at the commencement of the Seffion, of the army extraordinaries for the enfuing year, of the diftribution of which fum an account was af terwards laid before Parliament. He knew of no method of dircuffing the army extraordinaries un til they were brought before Parliament. He should be extremely lorry, however, that it (hould be thought that he was fatisfied with the accounts upon the Table ; he expreffed himfelf, on the con trary, diffatisfied with them ' • and that it was the duty of the Members of that Houfe to watch over the expenditure of the public money, with the molt extreme care and attention, there could. be no doubt. There was one article in the account, which ht could not pals by without animadverfion, this was with refpea to coals going. to Gibraltar; it appeared that the demurrage upon this article amounted to 61. per chaldron, a charge fo enor mous, as to require a ftria inveltigation. He thought that a wage of the public money evidently appeared in thefe accounts, and that the finances of the country were not mauaged in that cecono mica) manner as a man wi—rld manage Lis own private concerns. Having laid thus much of the accounts, he would fay, that he believed that many of the fairs contained in them, belonged to the late Adminifiration, and were now brought for ward for the fill time. He was lorry not to fee the late Chancellor of the Exchequer in his place. The Eftimates of the army extraordinaries brought forward by the late Chancellor of the Exchequer, were generally found remarkably accurate, the aflual amount of the expenditure feldom exceeding the ellimate by more than a or 30001. It now became a quettion whether he did not keep back fums, which if brotight forward as they ought to have been, would have confiderably exceeded in the amouti!, the climates he formed ? for it-now appearedSwhen we had arrived at a happy period of Peace, and the accounts were in confequence wound up, that the prefent Chancellor of the Ex chequer was fiddled with the odium of bringing forward accounts for not half the fums contained in which he was refpotifible. Why did not the late Chancellor of the Exchequer comedown and (late that thofe fums contained in the Accounts winch were paid for Cervices during his Admini tiration were his, and take the refpon fi bility of them upon himfe lf ? He wanted dates to the Ac counts, that he might diftinguith between the ex- Fences incurred by the late and prefent Adminiftra lion. He wanted to know when the different Bills had been drawn, which it appeared had been paid by the Treafury. There were feveral items rela tive to fuhfidies ; why were not thefe brought for ward by the late Chancellor of the Exchequer ? This deferved the attention of the Houk. it ap peared now that mcl enormous fums had been kept back by the late Adminiftration, and had been fuffcred to prefs upon, and burden the finances of this country until a new Adminiaration were COM. illell --.•.- I I. pelleol to bring them forward. It was foram fly the cliflom to vote the Army Extraordinaries after an examination of the different articles, but lately a pradice had arifen, to which he objedled, of !dinging forward lumping fum;, inflead of indi vidual articles. It was true the :wicks were previoufly examined by the Commit!loners of Ac counts, but he did not like th-t the power of Parliament fhould be given up to Commiflioners of Accounts; it was the duty of the Members of that Houfe to invefligate for themfelves, and ground their vote upon that invelligation. If Gen tlemen would now inveftigate a little, they would find that a rum of 25,000,0001. muff now be brought forward, of the expenditure of which no account whatever had been given by the Chancel lor of the Exchequer. He thought that a corn miffion ought to be appointed to invelligate the expenditure of that (um, when perhaps firange things would come out. All he could do at pre fent was, to exprefs a with for farther information relative to ;he Army Extraordinaries ; he knew this was not the day on which he could difcufs them. He did not know whether any Gentleman would be induced to move for fuch a commiflion, but an alarming expenditure had been going on, which bad not been communicated to Parliament, and he was anxious to have the accounts of the late Adminifiration thorouhly inveftigated.— He alTured the Hon. Gent leman (Mr. Martin) that he knew nothing of negative fupport ; he fupported the Right Hon. Gentleman (the Chan cellor of the Exchequer) becaufe he was con vince.: that Right Hon. Gentleman was treonomi cal in the expenditure of the public money; be yond that his fupport could not be alked by that Right Hon. Gentleman. He fhould continue to fupport his Majefty's Minifters until he faw a ftsffi cient realm% to alter his opinion. Mr. S mut requelled the indulgence of the Houfe for a few moments, while he endeavoured to explain fuch points as had been more particu larly infifted upon, and to remove the principal objeftions which had been (farted. He began by vindicating the new mode of voting the army ex traordinartes; which his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Pitt) had introduced from the fulleß convidtion of its expediency and neceffity. In (peaking of the prefent accounts, he wifhed to Rate to the Houfe, that every means had been ufed to make them as clear, as perfea, and as fatisfaaory as the nature of the materials from which they were formed would permit. The examination which every ac count underwent previous to its being paid, was, probably, not unknown to the Houfe.. Sometimes they were fubjefted to the infpeition of the Comp trollers of Accounts, fometimes to the review of the Secretary At War, and at other times to the examination of the Treafury. They were again fcrupulonfly and rigidly confidered at the Pay matter's Office ; and when all thefe circumflances were confidered, he hoped the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Tierney) would hate the candour to allow, that every exertion was made to prevent undue charges on the public. Before the payment could be illued, even after all this previous examination, it was requefted that the demand should be figned by his Majelly's fign manual, and counterfigned by the Treafury. The Hon. Gentleman was, therefore, too general in the cenfure he had palled on the mode of diftributing the public money, and to fubtlantiate his affertions be bad only produced one intlance. This intlance refpeaed a quantity of coals lent from this country to Gibraltar, and though he would not take upon him to deny that the fum was large, he mull think it too much for any Gentleman, ignorant as he muff be of the cir cumftances of the cafe, to pronounie decidedly that it was exceffive. • He had no doubt whatever that this demand experienced the ufual checks, and that fufficient evidence was produced of the encreafed charge being unavoidable before its fair nefs was allowed. There was no other point to which it was neceffary to refer, no other being mentioned by the Hon. Gentleman ; but the Hon. Member bad complained of want of dates in the accounts. It was to be obferved in general, that as the time of making up the accounts was from the 24th of December in the one year to the fame time in that which followed, this might be inferred to be the period within which the money was dif ' burred. But it was farther to be noticed, that the day of payment by warrant was in all cafes dated in the accounts laid before the Houfe. The fame arrangement could not indeed be obferved with regard to the bills drawn by the foreign agents of Government. The addition of the dates in thefe cafes would only ferve to (well the account, and to render it more unintelligible. At the fame time, when he entered into this explanation ' he wilhed to be underftood clearly by the Houfe, that by not giving the dates there was not the ffighteft with implied of concealing this information from 'the Houfe or the public. With the Treafury be was confident no fuch with exiled, and he was not kits fore that a with of this fort was what the Paymader-General never for a moment indulged. The Hon. Gentleman, however, had fuppofed that the late Chancellor of the Exchequer kept back accounts for the purpofe of throwing odium on his fucceffor. To this he bad only to fay that he was confident no fuch motive ever op erated on the mind of his Right Hon. Frie nd. To his knowledge every account was fairly Rated, as loon as it was fully examined, and an opinion formed of the jutlice and fairnefs of the demand. From the date of the warrant it became legally due, and might be put into a train of payment. He was ready to admit, indeed, that at the end of the year iBOO many demands might be outftanding. There, however, he would contend, were then un der confideration, and in all probability contained many particulars which, after a careful infpeaion, were difallowed. In illuttration of this idea, the Right lion. Gentleman mentioned the cafes of the demands of the Landgi'ave of Heffe Caflel and the King of Sardinia, which he fucceffively de fcribed and explained. Both of thefe claims had been, in the &ft inilance, difputed, but both had afterwards been admitted, and both had been after wards regularly liquidated. He would Rate, there fore, once for all, that there was not the flighteft foundation for the idea which the Hon. Mernher had fog/riled. The Right Hon. Gentleman, after making Anne remarks in rapport of the new mode of voting the Army Extraordinaries, and repro bating the unfair manner in which objeCtions had been urged, concluded by offering any further ex • planation, if what be had now laid was not confi dered fatisfadory. Mr. Tt ERN Ev explained. He faid his reafon for within g for dates was to know when the Treafury had advice of the Bills. Mr. STEELE obferved, that the Hon. Gentleman had charged his Right Hon. Friend (the late Chancellor of the Exchequer) with deliberately keeping back what his fuccell'or brought forward, and that he had thrown the expcnces of a former year into a fucceeding one. on purl:oak to deceive Parliament ; he defied the Hon. Gentleman to produce any one inftance of a charge having been kept back that could or ought to have been brought forward. The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQ3JER remark ed. that a variety of circumstances might have concurred in rendering the charge for freight and demurrage not an unreafonable one. It was ne ceffary for the Houfe to confider that the account prefented,was a winding-up account, and was in tended to include every branch of expenditure ranging under Army Extraordinaries, as far as they could be made out. Mr. NICHOLL faid there was no Member in the Houle of whole efteem he was more folicitous than the Hon. Gentleman whole obfervations had pro duced the debate. He never differed from him without diftruffing himfelf, but he Rill approved of his own condat in not having condemned the prefent Chancellor of the Exchequer. That Mi. nifter was not refponfible for the impropriety of entering upon the Egyptian expedition, or for the various expences produced by, tbe late war. He thought Government aged perfedly right in paying all the bills drawn by its Agents—a contrary pradlice might be attended with infinite mifchief. As the Minifter had neither planned the expedition to Egypt, :or fubfidized the Powers of the Continent, he law no one point on which it was his duty to blame him—if the public money had been profufely expended, let thofe who had laviflied it refund—if it had been necelTarily ex pended, it would be a leffon to warn us againft entering upon fuch expenfive expeditions. He had no doubt if the whole expence of the expe dition to Egypt could be eftimated, it would con vince every one that it would have been better if that country had remained fubjefl to the power of France. He did not with to cenfure the late Mi nifters, who were not prefent. The prdper feafon for enquiring into their conduft would arrive, and if they were found to deferve blame he thonld be as ready as ever to condemn them. He confidered them Rill accountable for having prevented the evacuation of Egypt by the French army, and for the anfwer they advifed his Majefty to give to the overtures of Bonaparte. With regard to the prefent Minifter, he looked upon him as the Mi niker of a pacific fyftem, and he had oblerved no one meafure of his that deferved reprehenfion.— When he ceafecl to be the Minifter of a pacific fyftem, he would come forward and attack him with the fame feverity with which he had attacked his predeceffor. This country could only be faved by perfevering in a pacific fyilem, and while he found a Minilter making peace his principal ob jett, he would overlook thofe venial errors which might be found in his Adminiftration—while he exhibited thofe virtues which prompted him to de fire peace, his defeas would teem diminifhed— 1 4 4 • • • Verum übi plum nitent in Carmine, non ego paueis . Offender Maculis. Mr. STURGIS obferved,that an Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Tierney) had cenfured the late Minifters for not adopting the meafure of a Commiflion of In quiry fimilar to the one mentioned by the Chan cellor of the Exchequer in the Committee on a for mer night. The fart was, that in tficso an Aft palled enabling his Majefty to ilrue fuch Commif fions ; and it was upon that very Aft the prefent Commiffion was founded. The imputation was therefore unjuft. The CHaNclu.ort of the Ex cm Eqyall flated,that the perfons who were proceeding to the Welt In d es were fent by virtue of the Aft pallid during the Adminiltration of the late Miniftry. Mr. Wm. Duxuas Paid, the Hon. Member (Mr. Tierney) had imputed to the late Chancellor of the Exchequer that he had, for purpofes of fecrecy and concealment kept back certain accounts. This was a very high charge—and confident he was, if it was made in the pretence of his Right Hon. Friend, it would meet with the anfwer it deferved. It was not for him to defend his abfent Friend, who was fo much better capable of defending him. fell. It was fomcwhat remarkable, that his Right Hon. Friend should have !men every day prefent in his place in the Houfe, and that the charge againft him timid be brought forward on the day when he was neceffarily Ascent in the country. It was a charge molt unfounded ; for if there was any one quality for which his abfent Friend was pre-emi nently dißinguiffied, it was his uncorruptible inte grity.—lt was impoffible for him to hear one with whom he had long been in habits of the clofeft friendfhip and intimacy, and who was dear to his heart, mac the obj eft of cAumny. He hoped the Houfe would excufe his warmth ; he. would quit the theme, as he found it was one on which" he could not trult his temper. The Honourable Gen tleman behind him (Mr. Nicholls), the friend, as he protein(' himfelf, to the pacific fyllem, had ob ferved that the day would come when the conduit of the late Minifters would be enquired into. He fuppofed by the oisfervation, the weighty charge was preparing. He would allure the Hon. Gen tleman, his Majeity's late Minifters had no difpo. fition to shrink from enquiry. He did not mean to depreciate the talents of the Honourable Gen tleman, but he could not avoid remarking that his language was very itrange in the mouth of a new Ally of Minillers, who perfeilly approved of the conduit of their predeceffors. With regard to what had fallen from another Honourable Gentle man (Mr. Tierney). he had only to obferve, that he would find himfelf extremely rniltaken if he fuppofed the prefent Chancellor of the Exchequer would court his fupport at the expence of the late Chancellor of the Exchequer. However defirous he might be of the fhpport of that Von. Gentle • man, yet, upon fuch 'terms, be was perfuaded he would never accept of it. As to many of the ot.- fervations which had been ufed in the courfe of the prefent t() ad v e a t n t d former o them d ; if de it c i t thoughtua •shierdlyie proper cc fart' i to call names, and fay things were fcandalons, there was no help for it—it was + matter of tafte, and mull be placed to the account of a man's deed in point of breeding and good manners. It might be proper to fuggett, that the items in the Account related to a War, voted by the Houle jua and necefarl , and he would venture to fay thought fo by the. great majority of the country (a cry of hear ! hear!) —a war of aggreffion oq the part of k ranee, a war in which "every Engliffiman flaked his indepen dance, his likerty, and every thing dear to him. What were the items of which it was faid they could not be read in a public market-place with out exciting forrow and indignation I—What were the Subfidiary Treaties this Country had formed, which an Hon. Member had compared to engage menu with German Butchers ?—Was this the 11,0-guage guage of a Britifh Houfe of Commons ! Parliament had thought it neceffary for the fuc eels of the cattle in which the country was engag ed, to employ the aid of Continental Powers, was it right or becoming to apply terms of reproach and opprobrium to thofe of whole afliflance we had availed ourfelves ? He would afk the Her.. Gentleman behind him, if Peace could have been attained by the country if it had not been for the Egyptian Expedition? Whatever might be the ideas of that Hon. Gentleman, with regard to the confequences to this Country of the French poffef fing Egypt, did he think that wi t h an y &fay to the interefis we had in India, a French army could have been fuffered to have remained there ? If he did think fo, he had only to regret he was not better informed. If it was neceffary to the ex. iftence of our interefis in India to drive the French army out of Egypt, was it wonderful that with fuch an armament, and with fuch a fleet, there fhould have been fuch an expence. Sir Ralph Abercromby who commanded the expedition bad thought the firft blow would have been decifive— that the day of affault would have been the day of vidory. The event had not juftified his expeda float, and thus an expence had been incurred far beyond what had originally been calculated. Mr. Melilla laid, that nothing he had heard, had yet in the leaft altered his opinion on the topics which had been difeufled to-night. Mr.TIERNav begged leave to fay a word or two on the extraordinary attack which, he faid, had jut been made upon him, by the Hon. Member oppofite to him (Mr. W. Dundas). His crime was only that of expreffing a peat readinefs to f u pp ort the prefent Adminiftratton; and which, in fpite Of the intemperance of fome of its friends, he would fupport, while its meafures appeared to him to be what they fhould be. Whether the Hon. Gentleman was pleated or not, he could not tell, but out of doors, Mr. Tierney thought the chap. probation of that Hon. Member would be a feather in his cap. As to his uttering infinuations againft the late Chancellor of the Exchequer, be would only refer to the recolledion of the Houfe, whe ther he did not guard his expreflion, and avoid the ufe of a ['lngle word that might be luppofed to re lied on the perfonal integrity of the late Chancel. for of the Exchequer—He had no intention of ut tering any fuch word, or of conveying any fuch idea. All he had faid was, that accounts had been kept back when they ought to have been brought forward, and that he perfifted What it is that I have done," raid Mr. Tierney, " to offend the Right Hon. Gentleman, I do not know ; and, he will pardon me, if I fay, I do not much care. I have faid that I will fupport Ad. miniaration. He is an experienced man in there things. and underitands them ; but for a young beginner, as I am, I think I may fay I have met with rather harth treatment. If it is to be under. flood, that no man is to fupport Adminiftration but fuch as will readily eat every former word. if neceffary, and fwallow every fentiment which may be uttered in this Houfe by thofe who poffefs power in Government ; that none !hall be allowed to fupport Adminiftration, but thole who can readily pratfe whom they have been accultomed to attack; who can recant every public fentiment they ever uttered, renounce every public profellion they ever made, then I am not fit to fupport either this or any other Adminiftration—but in as much as I think a man may fairly fupport Admini ft rati on , without that fpecies of flexibility—in as much as I think, that in the hour of danger or emergency, an Adminiftration, whole proieffed principles I approve, deferve fupport, the prefent Adminiftra tion fhaU have my cordial fupport while it conti nues to aft upon thole principles; and I fhould hope that my conduit will not be mifconftrued, nor that I (hall be fubjed to blame, and until I hear it pronounced from the lips of fome perfon of higher 'authority than that of the Right Hon. Gentleman. that I am liable to cenfure, I (ball remain latisfied." The &murain , at WAR explained the caufe of the charge of the item in the account of coals tent to Gibraltar, which he juftified, and profeffed a readinels to give any. further information to any Gentleman who fhould require it. • The Houfe was anxious for the queftion, when Mr. Rosso* rote—he was commencing in a (train of invedive, and had ufed the word "Tcanda. lou s "—w hen The SPEW& called him to order, obferving that fuch language was very improper. He felt himfelf to blame for not having checked it in the courfe of the former debate. He did not think the teas fcandalous was one which it was parlia mentary to apply upon the prefent occafion. Mr. Rosso* laid it was an alarming circum. fiance to fee the prefent Chancellor of the Exche• quer identify himfelf with the former ; whole mea lures he had defended in the fame manner as if they had been his own. It was alarming to hear the man now in office defend the unbounded ex travagance of the late Minifters, who had wafted 300 millions of the public money. That part of the Extraordinaries which related to Egypt, was an expenditure not to be defended ; it was the aft of the late Minifter, and it was adopted by the prefent. No Cuch expence would ever have been I , 4