Star. — London, England, 1805-02-16 00:00:00

PARLI4.IIEATARr PROCEEDINGS. HOUSE OF LORDS, FRIDAY, FEB. is. In the Appeal " Fairfield v. Morvan," Mr. Plume; was heard in reply. J...tztnent polipotied until :bitchy fortnight. 'I he Earl of Rofslvo ton focceitlitig to the title, was Introduced Ly the l ad. of Cafhiit and Limerick, and took the cuitomary oath% 2.41 hi. feat. he Annuli Affeffed Taxes. and Exchequer Bills, v .r. real a Third tinit.an.ll paifrd. sit..%kocti. front the Treafury.prefented at the Baran account Nituttie.rrerivedfor the year 1804, and how expended, u far as !0 Great Britain 4 The Coal F flop IndLm:•ity, and one Private Bill, wzrc biougtit up ironi the Cornnions and read the lint time. tARL ST. ♦fNCENT. The Duke of CLARENCE referred to what had r i ff c d tome drys ago refpeaing a Noble Eatl (St. Vincent). He nbferved a Noble Vtfeounz prefent Mho hod been at the head cf Adminitlration while that N•thle Earl managed the Marine Department cf this country. He could not, therefore, forbear from calling on the Noble Vifcount for a declaration, now that he had joined with the prefent Minifiers ' of the fade in which he had formerly held, and Rill continued to hold, the condua of that gallant Com mander, while at the head Cif the Admiralty Board ? His Royal H;ghnefs had known the Noble Earl for 26 years, and he felt himfelf called on to declare both as a Peer of that Hook and a. a Naval Officer, that he had never feen caufe to differ from the No ble Earl but once, and that was with refpea to his ideas on the fubjea of the late Peace. Had the con duet of the Nobie Earl in his Minifferial fituation be come the fobj:4l of difeuffion, it fhould unqueftion• ably have met with his decided !import. He ex peeted, therefore, from the Noble Vifcount a can tiflent declaration as to the Impreffion which Rill re mained on his mind of the condo& of that No'ale and refpeaable Naval Lord Vilcount SIDMOUTH fail, that called on as he had been by the Royal Duke, he could not re fill anfwering the queltion which he had condefcend ed to put to him. He felt no helitation, therefore, in declaring now, as he had uniformly hitherto done, that he highly approved of, and held in the molt per feft refpea, the condua of the Noble Earl both in his fituation as a naval Commander, and as the head ' of the mann,: of this country. He would be guilty of grofs inconfillency, and of a violation of his own Brady fixed fentiments on the fubjeft did he not Rate GP' and did he not declare that the Noble Earl was, in his opinion, entitled not to the thanks only, but to the warmeß gratitude of the country. The Duke of CLARENCE felt pleafure in hear ing the confiflent declaration of the Noble Vifcount . He Ihould not therefore trouble their Lordflaips far• titer on the fubjca, the more particalarly as there were other topics conneacel with 61 naval affairs of the country to which he fhould at tome future peri od, not at a great (finance, feel himfelf called on to requea the attention of their Lordlhips. There was, however, a queßion on another fubjeft whidt he mad put to a Noble Secretary of State, namely—lf there was any intention on the pan of Government of making any alteration on the Volunteer Laws? Lord 1 - IAWKESBURV did not think himfclf called on to antirer that que(lion. If Mmiders found it ncettrary to fubmit any thing to the Ifoufe on the fultje& of the Volunteer Force, their rearms for doing to wauld then be explained, and it would be in the power of Noble Lords to put fuel) quef tiens, or Fropofe fuch amendations, as they may think proper._ The LORD CHANCELLOR left the I;Conlfack, to exptels his fentimrnts, as an individual Peer, on the irregularity of this proceeding. He thought he fhould not acquit himfelf in the faithful el.leharge Of his duty, if he did not thus publicly proud spina it. The Duke of CLARENCE entertained great re (pea for the opinions of the Noble and Learned Lord on all occations, more efpecially on a filbjett of this nature ; but he mutt 1131 perfdl, that in the en quiry he made, there was nothing inconfißent with the rules of that Houle; and he lamented that fuch a relatance Ihould be (hewn by blinillers to remove Its uncertainty in a matter of very conliderable im portahce. OLFINCE OF THE COUNTRY. Lord DARNLEY role to make his promifed mo tion; for the Repeal of the late Additional Force Bill, which, he faid, had been found wholly inefficient for the purpofes for uhich it was enaded. It was con tended, by the new Adminillration, that the Army of Referve Bill, and all the former expedients which their predecelfors in office had adopted, were utterly incompetent to the purpofes they were intended to fcrve. and the cry of alarm was vociferated through the country. We had been told, the means of pub lic defence were eifre g arded ; that the Nation was espied to all the fury of a vindidive enemy; and that thofe who then were out of office, and have fince received the confidence of their Sovereign, were alone able to reicue the nation from the imminent danger to which it was expnfed. What had they done to appeal: the general anxiety, and to fatisfy the public e:rp 4 - !atica ? Pompous declamations had been rucceeded by the spolltion of their own inabi lity, and intlead of feting eitahl:ffied, for the protec tion of the country, a large dilpidable force, the flu fa = ti::n cf every • rder of fiiciety had been (it...ea finned, all the inconveniences of a new organization of the public fei•vie had been miirred, an:l no pnr. tion ef that ferueity which was fa Pact:llly per - mired had been olitained. The hopes of the people were pccriliarly raiht , .?, from the pt:f•nal exertions which the Right Hon. G:r•leman no. high in had direaed to the imprt vetni.nt of the Voinntcer force of the Cinri.re Ports, under his oun immcJia:c or ders. rive thonisud men were under hio command iso that duty, parading from poll to pelt, and threat cling the enemy from the promontories of our coati. If he was to capable of rendering efficient this little army, under all the difadvantagcs he had to encoun ter its diteipline, it was thought, when the fame seal was applied to the Regular Forces and the Militia. and the great body of Volunteer auxi. barks, the molt unbounded fuccefs muit be the confequence. It was not neetlfary to inrehigate into the motives of this expo Cation, or into the wife, of this dilappointment ; all that was material was, to afcertain the fad, that the public danger was not removed ; that the diquirable force had not been increafed; that Englifhmen, if not to tremble aft home, were to be inadequate to forviin o enter wife, and were now to lament, that . t11:7 d taken load pretentions for real talent ; and that the • affairs of the nation, in the molt critical hour of its ' hiltory, had been confided to iliac who were wholly 1 incapable to difcharge the public duties to which they were appointed. In the papers before the Houfe, if there were not palpable mitlatements, there were items which wanted much additiimal explanation. On one fide, 3472 men appeared to have been railed, and yet out of there no lets that 730 had been rejeded.— Some of the accounts were fo minute, that although they enlarged the bulk of the documents, conduced, in no refpealt, to magnify our hopes of the public fafety. in one extenlive dittrid, in the year 1803, it appeared there were ten allied to the Fencibles; .n the fircceeding year, under the aufpices of the Right Han. Gentleman to whom he had alluded, there were no more than fir. Nothing could be more unfortunate than the flotation in which Minifters had placed thenifelves,by their idle vaunting on this migh ty holt of preparation : it reminded him of the groan ings of the mountain, and the gigantic progeny which was expeded from its labour, and the rielleultu ma was teen efcaping, and a fami.iar and infirudive lel fon vats fupplied by the ingenious fabulift to all thole who than indulge in fuch arrogant pretenfions which mull ever terminate in vanity and dilappointinent. Whatever view was taken of this Winch, the ftme conclulion mutt be drawn, that the Additional Force Bill had wholly failed. He felt the fame refped that others might for thole who were concerned in the formation of this projed ; hut he mart not admit his private fenfib:iity to obitruCl him in the fundinn he had to difcharge as a Peer of Parliament ; and it was under the impulfe of his duty that he moved to repeal this Bill ; and that he declared thole who had prepared it wholly unfit: to meet the difficulties of the Executive Government in the prefent mills. The LORD CHANCELLOR was reading the words of the motion for rel - aiing the All pail:td in the lag Sellion of Parliament, for increating the per manent difpnfable force, it having been found; by experience, to have totally failed ; when Earl CAMDEN role, and laid it in glit be, per haps, confidered tirnecelrary to anfwer the general arguments cf the Noble Earl, becaufe his finn:ch was lets an attack upon particular meafures than a gene ral charge of incompetency in hi, Majcay'sMinillers. —lt was not a very happy illuilration cf the Noble Earl's fentiments, when he reprcfented the Ipirit and talent with which a Right Hon. Gentleman had or ganifed and difciplined the Cinque Port Volunteers,as a proof of his inability to make the ne-effary arrange ments for the general military force of the country. Although no conclufive argument could from that circumllance be fupplieJ of his being adequate to this arduous duty, it certainly afforded no dedudion of a contrary kind. The principle, and the theory of the Bill, he contended, were perfedly cnrreO, and the Noble Earl had employed no reafoning, at leak againfi the general fpirit and defign with which it was framed. He had, indeed, made (rime remarks on its inefficiency, which fhould not be permitted to efcape unnoticed. Thus far he (Earl Camden) would ad mit, that the numbers produced by the Bill were not fo great as were on reafonable grounds expeded. It was, however, impoffible to proceed with the Army of Referve Bill ; the inordinate expencc, both to indi viduals and the public, was an unanfwerable objec tion to it ; it converted the recruiting fervice into an infirument of grievous oppreffion, and, like many other evils, provided its own remedy, for it could nn longer be fultained. When this was the fituation of things, it became indifpenfably neceffary to retort to fome other expedient, and the Bill, which was the fuhjed of the prefent debate, was framed. It was hoped (and that feeling had not been wholly difap pointed) that by its provifions all the inconveniencies of the former Bill would be avoided, and many, if not all, of its advantages, would be feeitred. It was dilcoveted, that among the molt prominent difficul ties oldie former were the parochial burthens it oc eafioned. How far this ohjedinn was removed by the prefent, was both unis erfally felt and acknowledged. This Bill called upon the pat; iotifm of the country to fuppott the common cattle, and aimed to make the public virtues of individual, operate far the general good ; it provided a channel into which local influ ence might dired that fapply which the exigencies of 1 1 the State demanded. He was happy to hate that Gentlemen had not been inattentive to this invitation, and the pipets on the table would vindicate them un der any afperlions that might be directed to reprefent them as infenfible to the call of their country. It fhould be recolleded that the meafure itfelf, the me-' rit of which was now queltioned, was propounded only as an experiment ; the former could not be pro fecuted, and this was adopted as a project under very difficult and critical oh comitances. It has not yet had fufficient time to operate, but as far as its effeEt could, at this period, he afcertaincd, it held out that beneficial profpe a d which it would be extremely im politic to exclude. The Noble Lord had objeled to the prefent Bill. but he had not propofed any other fcheme as a fubllitute for it. It was the frequent condition of human affairs, that only evils were prof fered to p., and the diferiminating mini could alone Phew its wifdom by felating the kali evil. Had the Army of Referve Bill been continued, it muit have become a dead letter, it could not have been conti nued in operation ; and unlefs fome falutary plan were Tainted to, the permanent force mull have been Jecrealinon all the contingent advantages of a large difpolable force mull heave been furrendered, and we lirould have been, at bell, in a flare of inac -1 tion, where it was moil important we fliould diced our exertions. Lot tt SUFFOLK argued, that the incompetency rf Atiuitie•s was apparent in ail the departments of n, but in nothing more remarkable than in the Bill which now had been c•mfidered. It was moll unfair to attribute the augmentation of the army to the Additional Force Bill ; that increafe was whol. ly to be attributed to the meafures of the former Ad minittrati.•n. )rail CAMDEN, in explanation, pointed out the Pape: on the table, which contained the llaternent he had made. Lord KING was furpri:ed at the milapprehen fions that had gone abroad on the fubj:tt of this bill. It was publicly avowed, that the object of this bill was to rails men ; but the fall was, it was an expedient of finance to raife money. It was in thi•. deceptive way the public affair* were concluded, and the real defign was ever to be concealed. A Noble Earl (Camden) had intimated, that if the prelate Bill were aboided, ai a neeelfary conCe queue, we mita again retort ti the balhrt. He trotted that no fuch Icheme would be revived ;—the bnfinefs was . of ton much confequence to be the continued fubje4l of experiment ;—and it was high time to introduce that complete alteration in tic ferrite, which would afford tome protped of re gularity and permanence. The Bill was not only inefficient, but these was fomething peculiarly offen. five in the means retorted to in it to render it pro. dative; men were not to enter the fervice from a fair elation, from a calculation on the chances of life ; but they were to be feduced, to he trepanned in to the favice. Conlidered in the light of a bill to raife money, it had none of thofe recommendation:, which political prudence recognizes ; it was a tar, not upon property, but upon population. What mutt the people fay when the Minister entered on of fice, with fuch high pretenflons, to terminate only in inanity ? Intlead of vi4our and fecurity—intlead of a force competent to the extenfive dangers and dif ficulties of our fituatinn, they had been amufing themfelves with catamarans, and filch idle and whimfical attempts to deceive themfelves and the public. If Minifters pationifed loch vain prejeas, there was little left for the public on which to reft their expe&ations, and hope would loon terminate in ' defpair. It had been rightly Rated by a Noble Earl (Camden) that this seas a quellion by which the me rit of the prefent.Adminifiration was to be tried ; they had been tried, and were found deficient ; and it was a glorious triumph which might now be en joyed by the late Adminillration, that all the argu ments fo liberally employed ;Taira them, on the com parative merit of the prefent and the tOrnier were inapplicable ; that this had been found nuga tory, while the refpelability of the public force was alone indebted to the anterior meafures. If we were to look to the operation of this bill in various coun ties, we should find in the detail the general inefti. cieney charged upon it confirmed. In Kent it had been very partially, and in Yorldhire it had been wholly unprodative ; it was therefore, in a matter of fo much confequcnce, equally a fubjeil of afionifh• ment and mortiFication the Milliners Ihould perfe vere in the urea; :re. Tim fettle of the country was decidedly againli it, and he milted the reprefenta fives of the country wouli concur in the general anxiety to prevent its pernicious operation. The Duke of CUMBERLAND fail, the rank he held in his Majefly's army would not permit him to be a filent auditor of a remark Mhich had efcaped the Noble Lord who had jug fat down. It was dif honourable to the lerrice to declare, that men were to be trepanned into it; and lie trolled the pratice i;t the military department would not jullify that ob fervation. The Earl of WESTMORELAND faid, no cor re4l opinion could be formed of the Bia, of which fo much complaint had been made, without attending to the Rate of the country at the commencement of • the war, and to its immediate fituatinn when the Bill was paired. Prior to thlt event, the military forces were very confiderably reduced, and the extra ordinary means that were employed to reflorethearmy to its former eflablifhment, on the rpm: of the occa lion, fuddenly dried up thufe (Etrees front which abundant fiipply might have been expeded. That they mutt have been exhaulled was obviou<, when Noble Lords adverted to the prodigi :us number of men railed in a very (bolt interval. The Army of Referve Bill railed of the Militia alone 50,cc0. In additina to thee, 4.5,c00 were railed for more per• manent duty ; and, in the whole, in the fltort fpace of :5 months, ec0,00.0 individuais were united to the national force. The unavoidable confequenee of this fudden acceflion, was tilde exceffive bounties, the ine vitable confequznce of which had been truly Rated. It became uhf lately necellary In difconrinue the ex pedient of the ballot ; it would neither proctue the men, nor cmild the country bear the weight of this fpeeiesof exaaion. Such then was the sl a te of th e country, and Inch were the impediments to former plans, at the time when the prefent Bill WAS propuf ed : in La. the anterior projeft was no longer opera tive, and fume new fcheme mull be adopted.— Then this meafure was propofed under the following recommendations : t. It was to fulpend all ballot ing. 2. It was to relieve the parilhes and ;ndivi• duals under an intopportable borthen- 3. It was to mice a body of men, better difciplined, and in greater number, than under the former expedient. It was by there tells the Bin ought to be examined. If it had an fwered any, much more if it had fulfilled all these purpofes,Minifierswould be entitled to credit for hav ing propofed this mode for the banclit of the fervice. He could by nn means agree with a Noble Lord (Lord King) who reprefented this Pill as oppofed to the fentiments of the country ; he trolled it hid given much fatisfaaion : at leall of this he was con fident, that the former Bill, however effeklaal for a time, had from its increafing opprefiee tendency, cached general difcontent. The Bill now under ern fideration had fometimes been oppoted on conflitu tional grounds. He well knew the language of the I Bill of Rights, that their fltotild be no army without the confent of Parliament. Such, he conte:lded, were the forces railed under this Bill ; becaufe they were fubjefted to the Mutiny All, and were thus pi:rinti caliy fubjefl to the corn nail of Parliament. Tit,: t,b jeaion, therefore, on this ground, mini be arlco,w ledged to be unfounded. Whik be wurld adm;t tl: e applgcation of every contlitutiuttal princ;ple, ht: mull likewife attend to the pahiic fecurity, as it w.nild Ise atfeied by the reduaion tri tile public force at the prefent time ; and he would frankly and boldly th:- dare the Crown was not faf,, on the bead of Ole :Ci vcreign.. if the force were lint provided which the fu1.k.,1 of thi4 1311 to :acquire. If the country had been expofed to dancer, it was bccattle this be neficial plan had not been e.trlier retorted to, and it was molt unre:fonabl, to expel its immediate ope ration in all. its extent. Time mull be allowed to diflipate the circa ofthe former exorbitant bounties, and to admit the country to recover from the drains . . by which its refources had been But this interval was not to be unemployed. The reduc ed Militia was to Apply the 'Regular Ai my. and a further fource was to be acquirea from the Army of Referve. Then time mull he granted for the meet ings of the Commifliencrs of the Parifl!es ; yet be fore it was pollible that all the multifarious parts of this fcheme could-be organized, it timed to be cx paled that the whole operation timid be difcovcr ed. Under thele circomdances, the fairelt way to eltimate the progreflive importance of this Bill would be to confider the two faa weeks as a fpcci• men of its efficiency. The number railed within thiS Bunt interval was 620 men, which would amount in the cnurfe of the year to 15,000, if the future weeks were equally produaive. It was frequently the diladvantage of a meafute, nt itfelf conducive to the public good, that it fo far interfered with others that the advantage derived from it was counter-be lanced by this interference. Such an objeainacoull not apply to the prefect Bill ; it had been found to oh!trudi no other fervice ; rather to co operate and Alit, than to interrupt and oppofe. But whatever might be the meths of the Bill now it had commenc ed, a reafon was given for continuing the experi- Inert, and fume concurrence might be expected, from the countenance that fhould be conceded by the Le. gflature of the country. The Noble Lord who made this motion had endeavoured to reprefent the mea- Cure as contemptible, left from the confideration its inherent merits and defies, than from a compara tive v7ew of the encomium paired upon the meaftue by bliniflers, and the rethlt of that meafure. A Right Hunourablte Member of his Majeßy's Coon_ ails, who WAS principally concerned in the formation of this Bill, had been degraded for what be would be found to defcrve molt honour ; he was refembied to Japiter, ranging through the heavens, but thorn of his rays, deprived of his fatellites, the companions of his glory : it would be probably found, that the diminution of his radiance was not from any °bleu ri!y in that luminary, btit from the defeelive vifion of thofe who have furveyed it. The Noble Lord no ticed the trifling variation of fenliment between the late and prefenr Chancellor of the Exchequer, which was merely confined to the naeafures that were befk to be purthed for the defence of the country and controlled the geneial coincidence of their opinions with the fuadamental differences that prevailed on the other fide. Earl SPENCER role for the pnrpore of fupport ing the 'notion of his Noble Friend. The queltion lay in a much more narrow compafs than might be at firll conceived. Every objedlion which had been urged againit the Bill, vilien it was firft propofed to their Lorcilhips—every inconvenience that was pro. phefied to refirlt from the pairing it, appeared to have been well founded. Should he fucceed in ea:NH . I)4I; thole politions to the fatisfadion of their Lordthips, he entertained the hope that he fhould have their concurrence in fupporting the motion of his Noble Fireod. Againll that motion he had heard many objedicris, but very little in the fhape of argument. The Noble Lcrd who had tall lookers flared, that if the motion at his Noble Friend fhould be carried, and if the orefent Bill fhould be repealed. the conlquence would be, the re-enaaing of all thole Bills which it repealed. This was, indeed, an ob jtdion of a very curious kind, and particularly fo. as coming horn that Noble Lord, who was one of the moll zealous and adive fuppnrters of thole very bilis which lie now Gems difpoted to condemn. It (buck him with confiderable forprize to hear dint Noble Lord urge loch an objedion, when he and every one of their Lordlhips mull recoiled the dif tinguifited part which the Noble Lord had taken in • fupporting every one of thole meabires which were inveighed againfl as abfurd and inefficient epithets, in the propriety of which the Noble Lord teemed to acquiefee, if the Houk was to judge from the line of argument he had purfued. It was afked why was the motion propoled if no fubilitute was ready to be offered for the meafure which it went to repeal ? His Noble Friend did not propofe the repeal of the AEI as the only meafure.' It would be the duty of his Majefly's Miuißers to fug,gell thole meaftwes which flu - Mel moll effetually tend to remedy the &reds of the Bill which it was propofed to repeal. His Noble Friend had poilponed his motion from time to time, in hopes that fomething of the kind would be elfeeled, and be had done wifely iu fo doing. The whole kingdom was in expcdation that the Bill, which it war the objed of his Noble Friend's motion to repeal, would have produced tome ea tenfive and permanent benefits, and particularly fo as the Right Honourable Gentleman at the head of the prefe.:t Adminillration had pledged himfelf that meafttres fhould be taken to remedy the drat, of the incompetence of the lalt. The prefent Bill was the g rand meafitre which was to a t c hi eve a ll that they had promiCed. It was prophecitd to them. they were repeatedly forewarned that it would not produce the effeds they were fo fang-dine as to taped from it. Their continual anfwer war, 1. Let us get rid of the balits—let uc be releafed from :hat ob noxious mode of recruiting —and let us try what in fluence can do." There was, ro be lure, fomething very platifilde and fpecioris in that f ort of a rgument . But ;chat was the efre;!t of the experiment ? Why, in Tome counties there were not a fcnre of men produced by the exe!tion of all this influence which was to have been In xvouslerful in its effcas. Nay, in one county, iLat of Sti.iirg, in whi,:h a Noble Lord (the Duke of Mantr.Ae) tea • was particularly folicitotts about the expeliment of influence, not 1 (logic man was pro duced by the cTeration of the Bill. Since perfonal in:loence, tl..or.;re.bad failed, why perfevere in the eN re; imect ? Even were it ncy, as it could with very I . tdc difficulty he roved, attended witfi nume rous and real inconveniences, why was a 'meafure in rt.CIJ and ineffleicnt is Lica' to be fo pertinacinuf ly pitifueci ?As to mili•ary effeC, that from the various drecturncs their Lnrillhips' table, would tr to he abli , lotely null. Under another pn'rt of view, as a bill fur money, nothing c.. 1 he mole sti.jila and ton:Oval than its operation. Pr tax ens eliimaled acctnafing to the population, ani it was railed no the LE:Jed inter e ll. If i t wet merely a why nut declare Is • at once and r.:i‘e a Imo equal to what thole penaltim were calcii:Jt.!d to pr..i.ince upon the comp ty large ? He teas harpy to find, however, from the re :ueoi h::el b. co laid on the table, that it bar lat.:ly got into a,bctter live of operation. It appear-el that in the week tr(!ing the I eth infiant, it had no doccci 34 men, c.'t of m itich 59 had been railed it: Lancafltire, and in in Isliddietex. The parith ofr• cers had either been extraordinati:y fuccefsful cr itoulually alert ; for on none tie pi tcvdilig a ct : !ince die paging of the bill, had it produced mor than 3o nien. He put to the Noble Lords whether ti flare of the army and the bate of the country adroit of a P.ow operation of a bill, the al gurnent for pailiog wficit was, that it would al immediately. His Loidlnip could fee no rear , r fcr continuing it, and he thould be glad to h at what arguments the Noble Lords on the oppo:, bench fhould adduce in itipmvol it, they who e