Star. — London, England, 1824-05-12 00:00:00

which must - be in . or near large towns, there cooli be little daager 'or hazard. But the aggregate of all those hazards was nothing compared to the risk run by Mime row capitalists in this day, who lent their 'money on so Dian) , fallacious representations and wild schemes abroad and at home. It had been argued that if the taxes were all taken off in Ireland, as had been sug e' fed they would become the rivals of the manufac turers of Birmingham and Manchester. Would to Uoo that such a state of things should arrive, or that teen the rate of the profit of industry in Ireland were ircreaced! Its results would doubtless be peace and cadet, instead of • insubordination ; and instead of an timooductive exchequer, the consequence would be th-s found.stion of a large revenue at no very dis tant period, which would well repay this country for its forbearance. At present how different was the prospect sai things ! We were obliged to maintain a large standing -army, backed by Insurrection Acts,and a powerful .--This was a system which was hateful to freemen.— There was a contagion about arbitrary power, which rendered it dangerous that it should be in our neigh bourhood —( Hear). His next objection was to the Grand Jury system of presentments in Ireland, which went to levy, annually, taxes to the amount of 7.50,0001. by a secret mode of arrangement amongst the Gentry of the country, who it was to be feared had too often separate and distinct interests in disposing of the public money. Possibly the Committee would he able to de vise sonic mode of managing the expenditure on pub lic improvements, roads, and bridges, in some mariner resembling those in the Highlands of Scotland. The next question was the Church E tablishment of Ireland, whi:h, he contended, loudly demanded inquiry. He was far ft orn being averse to the cultivation of religious instruction in that country, at considerable expense, so as it was done effectually; hut they should carefully abstain from taking the wealth of the Church Establish ment for the welfare of the Church. In this respect ire could not but give a decided preference to the frugal, unostentatious, effective system of the Scotch Presby terian Church. Its object should be simply the propa gation of religion. If he should prove to the Committee that the Church had misapplied its wealth, he felt it would be a very fit subject for inqui: y, connected as it NV:IS most immediately with that most obnoxious set of laws; ;be tithe system. This latter had not failed to cr aw the attention of Government. Though sanguine as to i,s success, he could not imagine that it would e.isily be universally adopted. Tithes, even in this country, had been a subject of reiterated complaint; but how much more was it likely to be so in Ireland, where the tithe payer and the tithe receiver were of dif ferent religions? To suit the system to the state of ig norance in which the people were, it ought to be simple, and the mode of redress obvious. In this country it was easy, in case of any dispute, to compel the Clergy markto take the tithes in kisid, or in case of its being set-out, his neglect to take it away, after notice to that effect, was at his peril. But this was noc the case in Ireland ; indeed, owing to the decision of Courts of Law it was almost impossible to do so. To this state of the law might be attributed much of the mischief and bloodshed in that country. Under these circumstances he wished all possible success to the Bill for the Corn mutation of Trhes. There was yet another question for the consideration of the House and the Committee (if a Committee should be appointed), namely, the Orange and Ribbon Associations.. He should not distinguish between them. Both were bad—(lm,-). Whenever one sprung up, the other must naturally spring up also. i Attempts had been made last year by the Government of Ireland to put them down, but lie feated with but rely lit:le success. He would suppose that Ow Com mittee appointed should represent to Government the propriety of refusing to give to any persons in such a Society any high situation or place of honour or emolu ment, or that it should remove from such situations all such obnoxi:ors persons ; this, in his mint), would du mere to abate the evil than all the• Acts of Parliament ever passed—(Hear, hear). He drew ari animated pie ture of the evils arising from the present system-of Land lord and tenant in Ireland, which afforded the tenant in Ireland, particularly the Catholic tenant, just and settled causes of discontent. They were thus made a degraded class. The result of this state of things was, that the capitalist was excluded from employing his money in such a divided and discontented country. The objections to maintain the Church Establishment in Ire hold were rendered still stronger, because the Catholic naturally said in.his heart, it is to maintain this wealthy Church and its ascendancy that we are excluded from many dignified situations. Though nominally excluded only from a few, it operated to exclude him-from many. This was natural, because it was impossible to degrade a man a little—(Hear, hear). To prove the sincerity of his uish to conciliate, certainly some of these high offices should be opened to the Catholic. Looking to the po litical career of the Right Hon. Gentleman now at the head of his Majesty's Councils in that House, he was not disposed to give him much confidence. But he was slow so circumstanced, that no situation in this country, in Europe, or the world, could he an object of ambi tion to him; and why was his high station desirable? Not that he should be called a Secretary of State; not from the paltry salary attached to it, but because he had the capability of doing good, the power of transmitting his name to posterity through the medium of history as the.benefactor of his country—( Loud Cheers). That flight Hon. Gentleman possessed greater meansto set ye his country in this emergency than any person who had preceded him ; because, first, he had the power, and next he knew full well how to apply it to the comple tion of this great object. He called on him to do so now. He was sure of the sincere and cordial co-opera tion of every honest man in that House, and of every man of first-rate talent. After apologising for so long detaining the attention of the House, he moved " Thsx a Select Committee be appointed to take into congidera =o,ll the state of Ireland,• and report their opinions thereon to fire Sir lI.PARN'FAL and Mr. Gil ATTAN rose toge ther; the latter gave way, and Sir H. Parnell com menced his observations by erpressing his sense of gra ,:itude to the Noble Lord for the speech he had just de livered, and for the spirit he always manifested (.11 pies concei 'ling the state of Ireland. He required that !o be done in Ireland Which vvis done in other coon !ries. Means should be afrurded for the employment of the people. The Excise Laws and the Chili ch should become subjects of inquiry, and he had no &Ann that Ireland, under proper management, and if tinily en couraged, "cold yield a surplus revenue of three Or four millions per annum. The Honourable Baronet 'concluded by seconding the motion. Mr. GOULBURN said, that he should not travel into all the topics alluded to by the Noble Lord.— hough he should oppose the motion of the Noble be waslar from wishing to exclude inquiry, when to ..try could advantageously be directed. Because a Committee might nvercome many difficulties, the .Noble Lord seemed to think a difficulty should be imposed Upon them, which they could not possibly overcome. Upon this point he would say, that if a Committee were appointed he saw little hope of coming to a speedy .de termination. Let the House consider the subjects that were to come under their immediAte consideration. First, the Committee would have to investigate the re lation between landlord and tenant, and to point out how far and in what paints it was capable of regula tion; end secondly, the mode of employing the poor, and of disseminating capital. The employment of the poor had already been confided to a , separate Com mittee, which pioduce a long report on the subject. They would have to combine with these a view of ail the expenses incurred in supporting the present mode of preserving the tranquillity of the country. They would have to consider the Church Establishment, whether its wealth was disproportionate, or whether it promated the interests of the people. To this was to be added a review of the tithe system, either as acted upon before or as altered by the late Acts; also, the state of parties; and whether the concession of the Roman Catholic question would not better, if not remove all evils ? With respect to the last question in particular, he would ask whether it was fit to be referred to a Select Com mittee ? It had been a subject of debate in the House for the last twenty years. If a Select Committee wa, the best way of coming to a decision on it, why had Parliament wasted its time so long ? Not many days had elapsed since he gave notice that he should move for a Select Committee to inquire into the disturbances in those districts that were subject to the Insurrection Act. As he had hitherto omitted bringing it forward, he would take the present opportunity of moving it as an amendment to the motion of the Noble Lord. The Noble Lord said it was not enough to consider the state of a few counties only. The Noble Lord's objection might have some force if the Insurrection Act applied to a small district only ; but it extended over many counties, and . those some of the most extensive and po pulous in the country. In times, and under circum stances in this country that called for laws that could be justified o n ly by th e pec u li ar s tate of certain districts, did the House ever consiJer the disturbances in these districts a sufficient ground for inquiry into all the cir cumstances that might have been supposed to conduce to the disturbance—into the general state of the country ? Did it not on the contrary confine itself to the disturbed district? AN he asked now was to pursue the same course. He had stated at the commencement of the Session that if it should be necessary to renew the Insurrection Act, lie should feel it his duty to propose that it should be preceded by an inquiry into the disturbed districts. %%hen he made this statement, the Government of Ire land thought they saw a gleam of sunshine that por tended a brighter day. It •was not till those hopes were disappointed that the Noble Lord at the head of the Government of lielaiid determined that it would be necessary again to apply to Parliament ter the renewal of the Insurrection Act. lie would now advert to some of the subjects touched upon by the Noble Lord, who had complained, and justly no doubt if he were borne out by facts, that Roman Catholics were studiously ex cluded from those offices to which they were admissible by law. The Noble Lord, he had no doubt, must have stated the proposition more strongly than he intended. As it came in the shape of a charge against the Irish Government, he thought it necessary to make it the subject of particular obiervation. He had no hesitation in sayieg that in every selection made for appointment to those offices to which Roman Catholics were admis sible, consideration of the religion of parties was allowed to interteie. The. individuals best fitted to the office were appoinr.:3 without regard to religion. For himself he would say, that in a majority of cases he was utterly unconscious of the religion of the parties, and should have remained so to that hour were it not for a late discussion on the subject brought forward in that House. Had the Noble Lord referred to the documents, he would have seen that in the appointments to the Police enough appeared to shew that no principle of exclusion had been acted upon, and that' the selection . was as fair, as could have been expected. The number of Protestants appointed was 1800, and of Catholics about 900. Bot even their comparative number did not afford an accurate list of the disposition of the Government. It shewed, however, no disinclina tion to give their fair share to the Roman Catholics. It was stated, that in legal appointments also the Lord Lieutenant did nut attend to the claims and met its of the Human Catholics. That he denied. No one had been excluded on the ground of his professing the Roman Catholic religion. The Noble Lord would not contend that appointments should be made, merely with refer ence to the number of the Roman Catholics, and not to qualification. No man could exercise the appoint ments without seeing that a principle of exclusion bad not been acted on, but of the small amount of those offices to which the Lord Lieutenant had the appoint ment, 8,7001. was conferred on different Barristers, and of that 3,0001. was held by a Roman Catholic. This being the case, the House would see that the Govern ment had most unfairly been made the subject of obloquy. Another subject introduced was the Church. On a pre ceding evening he had not had an opportunity of stating his opinions upon it, nor would he enter at large now into the question. Before they agreed with the Noble Lord that the wealth of the Church of Ireland was too great., they should consider whether it was not benefi cial to the people. He admitted that it was amply and liberally endowed ; but considering the .double duty the Clergy had to perform, that of Ministers of the Gospel and of a resident Gentry, it seemed necessary that their funds should be ample. As to all that had been said about parties in Ireland, lie would most readily Confess that to one of th?ni lie would address his earnest en treaties that they would desist from proceedings fraught with inevitable mischiefs to their country; and to the Orangemen he would say," Abandon a system, the evil effects of which now produce disquiet in the kingdom, and may, ultimately, revert upon your own heads"— (Liem . ).—T:iiiiking that the course he should propose wa; calculated to produce the utmost benefit that Ire . land could derive from this sort of proceeding, he should move as an amendment, to leave out all the words of the original 'notion, after the word " into," and to sub . , stitute in their stead these— ,6 The nature and extent of I the distui tyunces that have prevailed in those districts of [ lreland whith are now subject to the operation of the Insuriection Act"--(1Iear). Mr. Secretary CANNING seconded the amendment. Lord MILTON said, that from his experiente ut the. conduct of the Irish Government for many years, he did not expect the Right Honourable tieatletnan (W. GOul . burn) would . agree to the Motion of his Noble Friend. He knew that he would- endeavour. by a side-wind to get rid of the questiOti of' a ge-ieral . itiquiry iittO . the L state of freiaud. It a sisistake tri suppose thaithert was but .littlefrom which Roman Catholics were ex . eluded. the exchisiOn of the higher orders from Par liament inflict e d a 'stigma .on the lower. The !owest peasant felt the exclusion of the Peer as a grievance in flicted on himself. There was a great variety of offices from which the middle and the lower classes were shut out. A gallant Officer, the Member for Fermanagh (General A rchtl4ll), said that the Pi Otestant and Orange man were synonimous, and that it was necessary for them to unite in their own defence. Was this a state of things in which Ireland could be well governed? Was it not a state produced by law—by six centuries of mis government ? The'effect of the law was to make five sixths of the population slaves, and the other sixth tyrannous oligarchy. It was impossible that tranquil lity could exist under such circumstances ; it was not fit that people should submit under such a system to be governed at all. The object of the Ribbonmen was raid to be separation and the massacre of the Protestants.— He was satisfied that Ireland never could be govet ned as it ought to be, until the people of England were better acquainted with the causes of di,content in that country; and it was because he thought the state of Ireland re quired to be made knawn to the people el England that he supported the :notion of hi; Noble Friend. Mr. NORTH said, it was impossible not to see the source in which the disturbaeces of Ireland had their origin. Sometimes their evils were imputed to disease, sometimes to famine, and sometimes to a die. ference of-religions opinion ; but we real source was the hopeless poverty, the deeper ate ignorance of the people, who had gone on for ages in the same course of tumultuous barbarisms—wave succeeding wave—the' country never thoroughly c,enerereol—the war began by Strongbuw left utainished even by Eliz the Reformation, which, it rrieht have been hoped, would have soothed some of these irritations, had but festered the wound; and could it now expected that wounds which had been festering for ages, could be cured in half an hour? One of the evils of Ireland was said to be abundant population. lie should rather call it insufficient employment. There had been many remedies proposed for this evil. He must confess he was most inclined to favour emigi ation on an extensive scale. Ile preferred this for many reasons, one of which was, because it would meet the wishes of the People. His countrymen were known to be fund of change— they were continually looking for " Some safer world in depths of woods embrac'd, Some happier Island in the wat'ry waste." Next to emigration, he would employ the influence of the Catholic Clergy ; and to render this more effectual, he would make them more respectable. He would. raise their income, and they should receive that income through the hands of Government. As to the Protest ant Church Establishment of Ireland, he was decidedly of opinion that it was productive of the greatest advan tage to Ireland. An Archbishop of loam, or a Bishop of Ferns, with 8 or 10,0001. a year, resident in Ireland, did much more good than a Duke of Leinster, a Duke of Devonshire, or any other Nobleman . of large fortune, who very seldom indeed, if ever, even Visited for a short period, much less resided amongst his tenants, and of whom, in many cases, all they knew, w as, that some times they saw his name in the Newspapers, as having made a speech in Parliament on the state of Ireland. As to the present motion, it embraced too much to do any good. The cause of Ireland was the cause of the Government, which alone could benefit her ; and he trusted it would please PROVIDENCE to warm their hearts with a liberal policy towards Ireland. He was grateful to them for what they had already done—the system of free trade adopted towards her, the Quarter Sessions, and other recently adopted' measures, had dune much good to Ireland ; but :menthe cure of the evils of Ireland could only be effected -by the country gentlemen of Ireland; and more than that, if they ex pected to reform Ireland, they must begin by refofming themselves.. Let them not suffer others to have the task of probing the wounds of Ireland ; if they did, they must expect thine would be probed roughly. Let them manfully coMeTorward and do their own duty, And they would soon see Ireland start forth Ma newtareer • of happiness and prosperity. Sir J. NEWPORT said, that - for one, he would-de precate any inquiry within the narrow limits prescribed by the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. North.) If'ester there was a period when a prOeier ins:Wry .rould.bc made with safety into the affairs of Ireland it was the present. if it were deferred the House would-be etaaain to lose an opportunity of doing much good, without doing any evil. Mr. STANLEY said, that the Hon. Gentleman op posite (Mr. North) had drawn a melancholy picture of the state of Ireland, whose miseries he bad declared were not casual, but appeared to be inseparable from the nation. The only way in which he had I endeavoured to meet the question was, by contending that they were of too extensive a nature to be remedied ; and he therefore proposed to leave behind to her soli tary and unregarded misery. But he (Mr. Stanley) would ask, if there were no good to be anticipated from the inquiry, what advantage could possibly arise horn the amendment? _ _ _ Sir JOHN SEBRIGHT supported the original mo tion, and objected entirely to trusting the affair to the management of the executive Government. Sir F. BUILDETT said, that after the very poWerfal and eloquent appeal of his Noble Friend, he owned he had expected to have heard one of his Majesty's Minis ters deliver his sentiments upon a subject which was confessedly of such deep importance. In that hope he had been disappointed; and 'the only drawback to his disappointment was the speech of the Honourable Gen tleman opposite (Mr. North), which he allowed was highly eloquent, and couched in btilliant language, but which he hoped he should not be accused of any want of candour or liberality if he described as inconsistent as it was eloquent. Such w as its inconsistence, in fact, that he felt he owed an apology to the House, for rising to answer that which was .::n answer to itself. The speech of the Honourable and Learned Gentleman wa, in fact, a librated antithesis, where one statement was' counteracted by another, and the effect of one argu meat destroyed by that which immediately succeedej it. The Honourable and Learned Gentleman had • drawn a very eloquent and :,ignly coloured, and he (Sir Francis Burdett) had no doubt a very faithful picture of the melancholy situation of Ireland. He dwelt upon her distresses, and he declared it as his opinion that the causes of the evils unuer which she laboured should be probed to the bottom ; and yet in the next breath be deprecated inquiry, and voted for the amendment of the Right Honourable Gentleman— an amendment which he (Sir Francis Burdett) thought 'it disgraceful to append to such a motion as that of his Noble Friend. The Honourable and Learned Gentle man had stated- that such was the situation of his coun ts-yr-lien, that they hail nothing to fear or hope. This was in his (Sir 1. Burdett e) opinion a tolerably exact L'e4itition gf,despair, and rek the :• man resisted inquiffinfo - tliFtiitT o tii^sue!: es • . : 9L tst r produced such a fe e li ng . Th e lf onoura h.e : BA • t , .: , . 1 proceeded to repeat' the argument used by him .•.i former night in favour of colonization, and atriti. called to the recollection of English Genzleaen t nearly one half of the Poors' hale rai'sed in this coun:ry was appropriated to the relief of tke - Irish paupeis. Under all the circumstances of Ireland at present, he was convinced if they did not now come to full inquiry, they might at once bid good night to all inquiry, for never was the time more favourable than now, and never were the reasons for inquiry more imperious and commanding. The Honourable B.ironet sat douin, saying for these reasons he should vote for the motkin of the Noble Lord. Mr. Secretary PEEL said, that this JCRs the second • • occasion within a short period, on which the Honour. able Baronet opposite had expressed his dissatisfaction . • at the silence observed by Ministers. The Honourable Baronet, however, should in justice remember, that (upon the point of speaking) he had greatly 'the ad vantage over those of whom he complained. Coming down, after a long absence front the House, with a keen appetite fur debate, he ought to consider that the feast would naturally be less tempting to those who were presented with it night after night, and sometimes, in deed, risque ad nauseam. The !tight Hon. Sect etary, in coming to the question before the House, observed, that it seemed to him to be within a very narrow com pass. The subject for discussion, as he thought, was much less the general state of Ireland, than the comple raises met its of the two courses which were pieposed by his Right Hon. Friend near him and by the Noble Lord opposes.. For ch party proposed a Select Cosimittee, and it weitild be well to examine the diffsrence between their • vices. The Noble Lord (Lord Althorp) wished to in q lire into the state of Ireland sseneral:y ; his Right Ilan. F e iend (Mr. Goulburn) to take the nature and ex tele of the disturbance's which existed in certain districts. firese was no question they efmre as to the inquiry —the aniy question was as to its extent. Here was Ire land, then, great part of which was subject only to the ordinary operation of the law ; same part of it enjoying perfect teanquillity;•othets comparatively tranquil, an'd other parts in a state of the greatest possible disorder, kept down, and indeed scarcely kept down, by measures of great and unconstitutional severity. When the Right Honourable Secretary said-4! I will take for the imme di.te object of this inquiry the state of those parts of the country in which the law is at present stisi ended," did he not take that which was the natural, and cer tainly the candid course? Did not those portions of Ireland call more urgently for present examination than the quiet parts? Let the House only look at the extent of teeritory to which the Right Ilonourable Gentleman's plan referred, embracing the counties of Clare, Cork, Limerick, Kerry, Kilkenny, Kildare, the King's County, and Tipperary. Would any man who knew the size, po pulation, rind importance of those counties say that they did net afford a fair specimen of Ireland generally Much had been said of the indisposition of Government to Elting the present question forward ; but he denied • that any measures had been proposed in which Minii. ters had not been found ready to go hand in hand. The constant answer to complaints of the state of Ireland had been, 4 Point out the object of inquiry, and we are ready to discuss it with you." But he (Mr. Peel) was surprised to hear the abuse which had been lavished upon the amendment of his Right Honourable Friend . ; for the very inquiry which that Gentleman's amend ment suggested, bad been formally proposed to the House last Sees'on, by the Honousable Baronet who now seconded the . original motion. The Right Hen. Gentleman defended at some length the Government and the House from any charge of indifference to the fate of Ireland, and reminded the House of the various important measures .wl;icti had been adopted in the course of the last seven years, for the amelioration and benefit of that country, especially with respect to educa tythes,.the magistracy; and illicit distillation. Mfr. Secretary CANNING rosé, not wishing to add any, atguments to the discussion, hut chiefly because he caulii not jiiitify it to his . mind to let the invitations of the, Niiible Leird pass by without some notice on his part. Referringto ate allifsici of the Noble Mover to one question which the Noble•Loed admitted to be not the fittest subject fog inquiry by - the labours of - a Com mittee, and eeliich - yei he seemed to consider as a ques tion which it immediately concerned the House and the. Government to consider, the Noble Lord seemed also to suppose that he (Mr. Canning) was imperiously called ' upon to step forward in support of it at this particular time. Now for hirrielf, he must be allowed to say, that he took no view of that great question which was at ail likely to induce hint to go at present into the discussion of it, without some superior provocation to that implied in the argument of the Noble Lord. For his own part, his opinions on that great subject remained exactly the same as they had always been. Did the Noble Lord come to him for any proof of the sincerity of his opinions upon it? In the first place, lie denied that his cosidutt or language on any occasion had furnished reasons her suspecting his sincerity; in the second place, he denied that the Noble Lord had any right to demand such pledges. Ile for one, in the suppert which he had given the Ca tholics, had always taken care cot to put himself in their hands. Whatever others who had advocated their cause might have chosen to do, he had always abstained hone consulting them as to the propriety re edvancing or re fraining in the measures which i deerned necessary to their interests. His conduct thieht i•e considered right or wrong ; but in all his operations he had abitainede-- studiously, purposely, anxiously abstained—from beitig bound by their views and opinions in . the - discharge of a duty which he considered not so much their affair as that if the Public. He. did not blame those who acted in a different manner; but he had always felt, and con tinued to (*Lel, that he neither owed, eor would he ever give to theta, any account as to !;is conduct whether i.e advanced or abstained front the pursuit of that object in which the - Catholics were chiefly implicated. As to others, Ile knew not by what tight the Noble Lord claimed of him that he should take this or that step et that or this particular time. Ile u"ts bound by no agreement with any one on the subject. He hal* re ceived the suppOrt of many, but ssithout conditions. Ile hastened, however, to translate into plain language the motion of the Noble Lord. He said thaV the Government was divided upon the .subject of the Catholic question ; and he stated thef as a charai:- teristic of the present Government, as if if were wine:hi:lgs new in the cousouction of this Govern ment. He would tell the Nol•le Lord, that since the quthien had biSen a 'cleestion, no Government htd been biouBht together winch was not .ivided upon it. fie did not say whether this was tight or wrong Cfrit-- ctuanmacteiloatouthnicrwtuontlatz.as d: r t ie d re sr: happen; the 4tfeittqaluitt;teioint . N ___ ..r