Star. — London, England, 1818-05-15 00:00:00

ir k des! that this statenient could be shewn to Pr' en rated. The Honourable and Learned Gen re . talked of the course of blood caused loan ha d the su spension of the Bank payments. That e ' e ee o f bleed however was of much earlier date ; „: 0 , i n the middle of the last century the number eperems executed for forgerie s was as g reat as at „„ les ,' In the years 1750, 1751, and 1752, the rf,..e se s t ; number of executions for this crime was 18 ~ therefore the average number of the last three ye vas smaller. He however was not able to dis :eish between the number of forgeries of Bank ••• e • In the years • d er s pecies of paper. e 1812, 1813, the number of persons convicted r . ,s e sries through o ut the whole kingdom was 110 . e:enst three years it was 88, being twenty-two in the former three. Now this was the more when we compared the number of per ?ofoffences, and whiteh • mewed for all sorts e ee.. d ie the fi r st-mentioned years, to 17,087 . .••e lest three years it amounted to 11,0( X ) more , 1 the crime et forgery the proportion leid di pie il•e restoration of cash payments e st, ss s'l not prevent coining, which increased before • 511 s •pelIN ;ter • and even now it was pro ved that the •• r cleass , of the crime of coining kept full pace with c e crimes, which the increa se of for g eries did not s pear to les done. This proved the fallacy of , es.e part of ,e e s liseyarable and Learned Gentle r;-;an', a reurreat, thet cue cause of the increase of erirres Iva, the s uspension of cash payments. The crinie of coining !Ltd :Irreasei in a greater degree , '.1:!0 that of f.,:gery; and from this he drew the in :•Srence that it was not from a want of due caution pat of the Directors of the Bank that we were etOittte :hese crimes that all must lament. He -se set-did t:tsse crimes must bs chiefly attributed to s et:ion combined with indolence. In the annals c*t . :ireier tines v.-e found more crimes of violence, iss; of forgery and fraud.. But the extent of the is r endered it necessary to provide every remedy rU':re eursedsys against it:. It was therefore not sess :toy eli:ectien to the Hon. and Learned Gen -;,,;, motion, that he should propose an amend re es het in order to obtain a better result for the With this view he should move. " That an isinhle Address be presented to the Prince Regent, e e,'ing that ha be graciously pleased to appoint a ander the Great Seal, to consider the bet means of preventing Forgeries of Notes of the Bask of England and other Banks, promissory notes, Li; of exchange, and other negotiable securities?" Sir C. MORDAUNT could not help preferring the motion of the Honourable and Learned Gentleman is that of the Right Hon. Gentleman, because he twoglit it would be more satisfactory that this te'ect should be investigated by a Committee of t:.s'llouse. The Right Hon. Gentleman might not le fully aware of the alarm that it had occasioned ; id he thought the House could not give it that pa tee attention which it required. But on what sub eeie the patience and attention of the House • tees called for? Perhaps the Committee might not of persons of sufficient ability to suggest s ?rations ia the ne,tes, but he was sure they would want advice. As the Liverpool Petition had been i.,..sred to, he would beg leave tis refer to that from Constituents (Birmingham) on the same subject, slash sheaved that, if the system was permitted to go it would bring discredit and ruin on trade.—He his earnest support to the original motion. ?Ts. IIf.NN E . congratulate' the Right Honour- Geatlemat in having suffered prudence to step ei and prevent him from coming to battle to night se opposing the motion. So far from the crime of t7ery being on the de c li n e, it had arisen to a most a seining degree within the last year, and was still genie on. Indeed, as had been shewn by his Ho reerable and Learned Friend, the increase in the tie: three months of this year was almost inere e'hie—the indictments being nearly equal to those 5. toe whole of the three years alluded to--(hear).— From the very paper alluded to by the Right Ho mutable Gentleman, it would be found that m 1811, forty-three persons were indicted for forgeries on the Bank, o r ut t er i ng suc h Notes • in 181 n - sixty e-e • Ls 1813, ninetveive ; in 1814,7 sixty- three; in- Isl 6, 6; serenty five ; in 1817, one hundred and sixty-two; and ie the first three months of this }tear, one hun dred and five. He would say, that the number of crirsitrals was so excessive that Government dared rot gut the sentence of the law in execution on those vho were convicted. But the Bank had assumed to itself the right of dispensing with the law, by orm_ tag capital part of the charge against whom pleawd, and bringing them up to plead guilty 1t. , 1% , .? !mailer offence. So it appeared that no less 2.i) person; had pleaded guilty in three years havin 7 for , ed Bank Notes. In the middle of the o.ntury those persons would not have been suf f-ied t) plead guihy, but wonld all have been exe -1:t1 it convicted. Therefore the Right Honourable (.?• xleman's principle teas erroneous. Was it right it the Bank should decide on who was to suffer ca -1.1 punishment ? At tlle last Sessions for London, tv•7l•Je persons went sc:aenced to fourteen years' tra.:, , p,rtation ; and two, one o f whom was an un forz.!aate woman, had ben se'ected to suffer death, i3y whom were they selected? Not by the Judges. The So!icitor of the Baak held up the list of priso %; a:f.l said those num!)ered so and so, are the psu:ls allowed to be teed for the capital offence. v.: O allowed them .J He ma 2e no charge against ; hF believtd he was a very respectable p. , .:•71, who only did as he was directed. But who ..ay that the next Solicitor to the Bank might c•-;-Aly revect.oJle, or that he might not take from prisoners t:3 al:ow them to C.ead to sinalicr offence, and thus save their lives.— Bon. Gentleman then alided to the well-known ci),.crvation made in answer to the application for the l.;e c: . Dr. Dodd, and contended that On this principle t 2uo and odd l '''SCP!S lately convicted ought to cie been exec:.:ted ! As to the unfortunate woman t: Kink were appealed to, but their consciences were alll Government declined interfering. lie to kno".- 7 n 7 - hat principle the•3e two persons , eleced out of ..h.e that might ascer ..-.l,cer or not we had equal laws for all per va.:a all time,. Ile noticed several cases in which bad be: n pc rrli , .ted to plead gui:ty, and to .0.-!• 7 one person ha.l been so I:1- W:: 11.1k1 seduced t!e two boys to clime, ti , cr,e res•er.tly been brought I:cfore the pub • : a per, , ai who had ban coenected ; !lad 'ueeu itn plicated in such transactions whose brotlier bad been transported for the same offence ; and whose father had been engaged in making false keys ? Why, he wished to know, had this man been spared, while a boy of eighteen years of age had been pursued to con viction, who now lay in the condemned cell, and who, unless more mercy were shewn to him than had been extended to the unhappy female who lately sufrered, must shortly be executed--(hear, her:y.4— LN then compared the executions which had taken place since the year 1811 up to the present time, with the number of convictions procured within the same period. In the year 1811 These had amowited to one in fire; in 1812 they were one in three; in 1813, . _ _ one in five; in 1814, one in ten; in 1815, one in seven ; in 1816, one in seven ; and in the last year, one in nine. In the present year the executions were more numerous in proportion to the convictions, but while the law was thus irregularly carried into exe cution property was felt to be less secure than it would be where a milder punishment was awarded, with the certainty of the sentence pronounced being carried into effect. From the experience of those who had been in the habit of attending criminals sen tenced to die, from twelve to twenty years, he had • heard, that chose who suffered for forgery were, in many cases, far from feeling that they had commit• ted a great moral offence against the law of Gov. Their conduct was frequently marked by resentment _ . i • ag..iinst their prosecutors and ndignation at the selec• tion mule which doomed them to death. It was thus that the few hours which intervened, and they were but few, between the order for their execution and their being led out to die, were passed, and when they came on the scaffold, what were the feelings ex cited among the crowd? They were any thing but what ought to be excited by such a spectacle. The cul prits were objects of compassion, and the a election of them for punishment a subject of general indignation. —The frequency of prosecutions tended greatly to harden the public mind; This he illustrated by an anecdote of a poor boy, who was recently turned out of Newgate, destitute and pennyless, and in such a state that he might be said to have no friend but the jailer—no home but a prison, was a few days after wards detected picking pockets in sight of the scaf fold, on which an execution was about to take place When brought into the prison, he was asked by the Ordinary, how he could make up his mind to com- mit a robbery at the moment when the unhappy cm Kits were about to be launched into eternity ? The boy answered, that was just the moment for him, as when all eyes were fixed on the victims, the pockets were left unguarded. Such was the effect of execu tions. Ile heartily supported the motion of his Ho nourable and Learned Friend. Mr. S. THORNTON did not deny that some in-, quiry might be desirable. He vindicated the Bank Directors ; and said, they were never desirous of calling for the severe execution of the law, and the selections which had been referred to had been made upon due consideration of all the circumstances of the several cases. In every instance they were glad when mercy could be extended to the parties con victed, that life should be spared. Mr. HUSKISSON said, if he had any doubt of the inexpediency of appointing a Committee, that doubt would have been removed by the speech of the Honourable Gentleman who had spoken last but one. He admitted that which was complained of was a great evil, but- could not think an inquiry like that which the Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Bennet) seemed to desire, into the whole criminal law of the land—into the conduct of the Judges, and into the motives by which those had been actuated who had taken upon themselves to recommend to the Crown to spew mercy in some cases, and to let the law take its course in others, ought at this mement to be con fided to a Committee of that House. The Honour able and Learned Gentleman, in the atle and elo quent speech which he had made in bringing this subject forward, had not seemed to wish that any such vindictive inquiry should take place. Ile only desired, as every man must do, that some inquiry of a remedial nature should be instituted, to check the growth and arrest the progress of this alarming evil. If this motion for a Committee were carried, ho believed all that would be done in the present Session would be this:—having ascertained the magnitude of the evil, they would recommend an Address to the Crown, to take such measures as should appear best calculated to put a stop to it, and that through the Committee they would cir cuitously arrive at that Commission whii.ll might be obtained at once by carrying the Amendment.— It was with this impression on his mind, that he was disposed to support the amendment, and not from any other arising out of the view he took of the pre sent state of circulation of the country. He was sur prised to hear the Honourable Gentleman speak as if those who suffered for forgery were ia their own minds almost satisfied that the offence for which they laid down their lives was in itself meritorious. Was there any great difference between the forging of Bank Notes, which passed from hand to hand, and the forging of will or other documents to defraud the honest members of the community, that should make the man who suffered for the former crime, an object of peculiar interest ? Were a Committee to be ap pointed to inculcate such notions, it would be as well at once put an end to all money transactions, and return to that state of society in which all commerce must be carried on by means of barter, which would have the effect of forcing men to commit what the Hon. Gentleman would consider real crimes, as they would have no means of living but by preying on each other. He was decidedly ia favour of the Amendment. Sir SAMUEL ROMILLY said, a very great in ducement was held out for him to vote for this mo tion, not only because he thought a Committee proper, hut because he had found a Commission re commended by those who, till now, had been dispo sed to do nothing at all in the business, but who at length. since the subject had been brought forward, were willing to take it out of the hands of his Ho nourable and Learned Friend, by means of a Royal Commission. Ilis Honourable Friend, the Member for Shrewsbury, he thought had been unfairly treated by the Right honourable Gentleman. He did not consider that he (Mr. Bennett) wished the Committee to be converted to any purpose at all inconsistent with the motion of his Honourable and Learned Friend. Ile maintained, the increase of foreigners was so grt at, that it would be found impossible now to carry the laws into effect against those convicted of that crime iu the manner they haul been carried into eifeit in times_ past, as, if this were attempted, the carnage which must ensue would make such an impression that Juries would no lcinger.cmivirti All the evils which his Honourable )•fiend had described he was satisfied grew out of the present system. He did not say that forgery was a small offence, far from it; but the general feeling was, that it was not a crime that ought to be punished by death. He could see no reason why that House should not do its duty by undertaking the inquiry called for by his Honourable and Learned Friend. Their constituents required it, and he hoped the motion would be carried. Mr. HUSKISSON, in explanation, said he had not asserted forgery ought to be punished with death.— On this subject he was not called upon to give an opinion, but if he were to do so, he thought ►t would go rather the other way. General GASCOYISE remarked it was agreed 'on all hands, so far as the debate had then proceeded, that some inquiry was necessary ; and that confidence which had so long been reposed in the Bank Direc tors should be reposed in them no longer. He thought the most constitutional war of conducting the in quiry would be by means - of a Committee. Ile shou l d therefore, vote for the motion, but if that should be lost, wishing for inquiry at all events, he should then vote for the amendment of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Mr. MANNING said, he must express to the House the great surprise and pain with which he,had heard the speech of the Honourable Member 'for Shrews bury. He had asked why the Solicitor of the Bank of England selected one case for mercy, and another for prosecution? Now, the fact was, that he selected no case whatever. The Bank Solicitor had no au- thority of that kind ; he acted underlhe direction of his employers ; and as to the Directors, they judged of every case with the utmost solicitude. They were governed in their proceedings not by a regard for their own interest and safety, but for the protection of the public. The expenses were paid out of the funds of the Corporation, and for the express purpose of saving harmless those who had been imposed upon by forged Notes, and who were unable to bear the expenses. It was not the practice of the Bank to in terfere after judgment: but in the case of the wo man (Harriet Skelton) who lately suffered death, he believed it would be found that it was totally im possible, from the whole course of her life, for the Executive Government to have selected a more pro per object for punishment—(hear, hear.) In the course of the last few years, the crime o£forgery on the Bank had increased to a most alarming degree. The several offenders in England, in 1811, amounted to 5373: in 1817, they had increased to 13,933. He could assure the House that the Bank would be happy to concur in such measures as might be deemed most practicable for preventing the forgery of their notes ; but it would be perfectly idle to adopt any project that might be submitted to them from day to day, and which might be copied by their own Engraver in the course of three days. lie had witnessed their patient attention to the subject, and he would add, that they would spare no expense whatever to adopt such a plan as might be found most effectual for checking the evil. The reason why they detained the notes, after the word " forged" had been stamped upon them, was, that in cases in which they had gone out again, that word had been erased by a chymical process. At the same time, the Bank alWays gave an urdertaking to produce the notes in any part of Eng land that might be required, for the purposes of justice. Sir A. PIGGOTT contended, that though there was confessedly a great increase of forgenes in the years 1816 and 1817, there was also a corresponding increase of offences of every kind, from many causes, in the country. If the House of Commons, by their Committee, or the Crown by its Commission, could prevent their continuance, the country would owe them great obligations. No persons, he was con vinced, would feel the value of the service more than the Directors of the Bank of England. But, from the difference of opinion that prevailed, he must ask what course ought the Bank to adopt ? Either they must prosecute for forgeries or they mast not. If, as he believed, it would be allowed that forgery was an offence—then it must be prosecuted—and if prosecuted, from the frequency of the commission, a selection either for punishment or pardon must be made, unless it were the opinion of lion. Gentlemen that the Bank should hang, hang, hang. It was but justice to the Bank and to the meritorious indivi duals who 'acted as their Solicitors to state, that no prosecutions were ever commenced without the fullest deliberation of a Committee, appointed for that pain ful purpose. The Directors never authorised a prose cution without a probability of theguilt of the accused. If Hon. Gentlenien thought that it ought not to con stitute a capital offence—if they thought so, why not at once move for the repeal of the law?—(hear, hear.) Why did they mispend their time and discuss the conduct of the Bank Directors, when, according 'to their own shewing, the evil was in the law ? Mr. WILLIAM SMITH thought difficulties ex isted at every side of the question. He was ready .to give the Directors of the 13ank credit for their best intentions. Still he thought that there was one cor rective that they might have afforded, merely to give the public the knowledge of the criterion by which the Bank Clerks were able to distinguish the genuine Notes of the Bank. In the Scotch Banks there were no complaints of forgeries being practised on them. He allowed that a comparative limited circulation of Notes in that country might make forgery less com mon, but still there was a further cause, the difficulty of imitating their plate. Ile should vote for the ap pointment of a Co:nmittce, as he was convinced, even trom the length which part of the House semwd ia clined to go, that such a measure was nece,sary. Mr. CANNING stated that his great motive for preferring the Amendment of his Right lion. Friend, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, was, that it was the most effectual mode to secure a remedy for a con fessed evil. He had every re:iance on all the intelli gence, and assiduity that a Committee of ilia: House would display, but he nevertheless thought that in the advanced period of the Session a Com mission from the Crown would best afford a practi cal result. Supposing that the Bank had not taken the pains which the importance of the subject re quired, or on the other hand, that they had been oc cupied, as the Honourable Director had stated, for many years in the endeavour to find some remedy, in either case it was not likely that they could now come ' to an immediate determination of the point. Until I some mode could be devised by shish every holy could be let into the knowledge of the improvemeht: wititout being able to avail tie tit that ledge in the forger/ of tweet, the plan sug in Honourable Gentleman (Mr, W. Smith) never be acted on% The Sectrity, after all, till in the more elaborate execution of the print. by means it would be rendered less liable to Forgery They must rely upcn the same principle to their Notes against being copied, though opt, 'in a less sublime degree, by which the piettr Raphael and the Eneid of Virgil were raised imitation—the excellence of the originals them. I Though they could not expect to arrive at perfec , in the manufacture of Notes, he hoped that great length of time they would effect a considerat though not a decisive improvements In this, all the debates that had taken place upon the subs ,he had to complain of great exaggeration. was evil enough, he could admit, to call for terferance of Parliament, but it had not been out that Forgery bad iuereased in any thing " extent at which it had been stated. That years there was a great increase of crime was . lancholy truth ; but that Forgery had increased a greater proportion than other crimes, coulo be maintained with success—(hear, hear.)--=' (erred to the Papers which were laid on the from the Office of the Secretary of State Home Department, in order td" chew thaL crimes had inclea•ed in a still greater proporti, The exaggerated statements which had gone • could answer no good purpose ; and he though , importance that the country should be broul hold an opinion more consistent with the fact, was another subject upon which misrepresent had also taken place. Those who discharge, delicate office of advising the Crown in the of its most glorious prerogative, that of mere. alluded to in a manner that could not be just It was improper to call that a selection for meat, which was, on the contrary, a select mercy. If it were to be represented, that those were left to the operation of the law, while wete relieved from it, were injured by that act if such a feeling were to prevail generally, cise of that must delightful prerogative, instead being a glory , and a happiness, would beeps.- anxiety and a curse. He trusted that those advised the extension of mercy in particular would never be called upon in that House . the motives by which their advice was directed. less the honourable Gentleman was prepared • that in every case, and without exception, should be executed, a selection must be made punish, but to save. It was admitted upon al that the increase of Forgery was considerable admitted that no preventive had been yet der was admitted that the House should interfere, the simple question Ntas as to the most effectual of conducting that interference. He did or to sav that at the bezianing of the Session he , feel the same objection to the motion of the " able Gentleman which he did at present but advanced period, instead of pursuing a course might lead to temporary clamour or meffectv they should apply themselves to that which likely to produce conclusive and practical ac. Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH rose to repi was glad to perceive that on both sides of th, the necessity of some measure of inquiry to. It was admitted, cyan by those who the motion, that the evil was of such magni to call for some interference, and that the el therto male by that Bank to put a stop to gress of forgery were not so successful as further investigation unnecessary. The on: to be made was between the two modes of proposed. He had always heat d his Honow Learned liiend (Sir Arthur Piggott) with th, deference and attention upon tl4 as upon e , subject. He wished however, that in the his speech he had not endeavoured to cony , a personal question, that he had argued . extent of the evil and the mode .orremed without entering into any defence of the Bat charge was brought against them. Defence unnecessary. It could not however be cc indeed it was unavoidable that they shout distrust and aversion in the public mint! selection which was pursued in conviction for It was said that he had exaggerated the inc forgeries, and a comparative statement of cii produced to countenance the assertion. Th, bility of this statement rested on the numb cutions for forgery, not upon the number k tions, and much less of prosecutions. H, confine his view of the case to the number Lions alone: he called the attention of the the prosecutions instituted on the ground for twenty-one years previous to the Bar tion, and for twenty-one years subsequent the former period there were only six pr, while in the latter the number amounte, hundred and sixty--(Hear, hear.) Durin teen years immediately preceding the Rest prosecutions were but four. In the followit years they were four hundred and four (o It was said that in the C3t ly periods of the of cash payments the progress of forgery How then account far its great and rapt immediately after ? It might he said th Lions for forgery were not a good criterit by. For the purpose of shewing this, ref( had to three or four years of the middle century. The reference was useless and to the present purpose, because, at such a time, it could not be now made out, whi prosecutions took place for forgeries upon' upon private individuals. lie founded upon the vast increase of convictions \ place w within tho 21 years; but to emte to th, The light lion. Gentleman (the Chance.' Exchequer) said that the necessary secree investi; : ;ation as that proposed would not teat with the mode of proceeding in Cot that I foes?. How was this to be re«meil thew op i p ll o n s lg it i:•- i s m e r x . p e re a s n s i t:d ing h ) y tose agree ,httcoi tji it the proposal of it was J. ten menceiaent of the next Session He why a Committee of the House r+l Co mm , net be entrusted with any secrets necessar , menicated in such an inquiry as that prop, could nut believe that the House of Cot served so severe a censure as to say, 51 one of the Gentlemne who composed to be entrusted with secrets reler6ni_r, e -: . t •• ' • e ink irsienTis cr b i .. • ii ) could ;, .1 1, itust Be by which . ' Forgery.-- e to secure .• . Optratint , • pictures of i. 11 I l used above i Itemselvest I 4 4 perfection , that at nd ( 1 . . i • T. .. esiderable a 1 4/ il this, as in ' I the subject, , t 1 . I ' ii • on. There for the in- i been made Ing like the . I , Chit of latt was a me- .ncreased in , . , could not .. ..)--z-He re- ; the Table fate for the T' . that other ' A ' t ( roportiono--;. {one abroad . hought it of .t brought to I charged 11 : facto There ! • presentation •' . \ I arged the I • ' J ' 4 ' 1 the exercise . f,. mercy, were e justified.-- . . • I 1 for punish- . :election for . Ti at those who • .:! while others I 1 !tat act, and I' ly, the env- i e, instead of i ' ' I become an • , rose who had liar instances )use to state , . . iirected. Pro . pared to say, • . on, the la* made, not to , t on all }lanai, Table ;it was ,'k ; et devised ;it • 4 erfere, Sd that , rectual mode lid not mean 1 , . on he should 1 t 'the Honour- ; i but at this 1 . . , course which ffectual hope, rich was mot al ac's tuta:.,et o reply. lie . • l'i' y' of the House 7 wiu agted . t. tp ) who oppofed i • ! magnitude as . he efforts hi- 1, ( p to the p: .3- ti as to render . . .• I e only choir e les of inoniey . 4 • 3nouraLle and - i . 1 " 1 th the greatest on every other , . the course of 5 P convert it•into ~1 i ' ued upon the t I • . remedying it . he Bank.. No Fence then was CIL ', , I be concealed, should - create t • mind by that 4 I I 1, tiol on for forgery. the increase of 1 t of crimes was 6 The plausi- lumber of exe- 1. ; tber of convie- . He did not . 3 t •,1 mbar of mat- i ? F the House to ' II and of forgery ( f T Bank Restnc- i • pent to it. In . . 4 ix prosecutions, li. - n utted to eight luring the four- t 4 il Restriction, the ' A lowing fourteen i 4 • ur (hear, hear!) • , 1 f the suspension -gory was slow. rapid increase d that prosecu- iterion to jud g e ~ reference was ' . 4 :f t .. ddle of the last Ind inapplicabTe I ch a distance of I l ' " :, whethe r th es e pon the Rank or . ~ t '1 dad his met:ou , ~ .. 1 i • • cis which to 4 1,1; to the que;t:nn. lancellor of the rrecy of such an i not be cont i t - , 1 ... I Committee s o f t . ' I ()Relied with the Ilon. Centleman .. the Committee, $ until the Con.- . ' ,1, f e s..w no reaso n . l 1 . 'ommons sleuth! ! r .ssary to be com- ,:' . , t proposed. Pe 'T f Commons de- i ~• ( • 1, .y, that twenty- ' ; ~ed it were !...t Iv to ihi ,„,,,, • , . • ' ' , . f i t: