Star. — London, England, 1818-02-14 00:00:00

was done, it would be bei,e wrcantile interest, but to the elf. I of the EXCHEQUER said, question of the Ilonourable last, it would be enough to it of the six millions was to in the course of the present incurred with the principles urable Gentleman, but wonld rther than merely to say, that to his Majesty's Government ime time past to raise money !rest than had been paid for a long series of years. CH BUROHS. N rose to make his motion re scotch Burghs, and began by tibn between the subject of it liamentary Reform. His mo- Act and Warrant by which a .ates had been granted by Go h of Montrose, and an altera wstitution of that Burgh. The ate had lately declared, that were satisfied with things as ) had observed what had pas the last six months, who had ntry had teemed with Resolu : Burghs, stating the grievan t redressed, would find some the Learned Lord's assertion. neither the Noble Lord oppo- Tiber of his Majesty's Govern- Lade perfectly acquainted with he Scotch Burghs, would vo system of fraud that existed only one fact s' shew the state glis—namely, that the inhabi cotland, who had no voice in to Magistrates •of that Burgh, heir conduct, was nevertheless :tots they might in their magis t. Another abuse was the self a•ates—a practice contrary to justice ; ' and one than which an could not contrive a mode. oduce the most abject .state of r. In many Burghs in Scotland ty chose, were self-elected in the affair Was so managed that to thing.: In !other Burghs, the wand to reside, and, in fact,' tese were abuses of the most aions nature. It was not his cite any unpleasant feelings on 3 means meant any hostility to he Honourable Gentleman op very sorry if any thing he did D the country, which he was in his conscience, he believed he more.effectually benefit it, lisle effort's to effect the destruc elf-election of Magistrates, and ,ty of the Burghs to strict and hat had. oceurred was this—ln r, the period was passed by. et , e Burgh, of Montrose * Ake Ma h. ongbt to haves tieendecMd4 rex. of subseqesim . nroxigh the f i ord Advocate to what was called q poll election. xi for she Burgh, crt t ainlY, of r • but wb,at.he lained of, tibeen done had not been.dope t endeavouring to obtahainfor. from profess i0n4,1 men at the e could not and any ground of easure which had been resorted Lord and the Hon. Gentlemen as a legal proceeding ? Would to be done to other Burghs an. tikes ? What had beim clone more or less than this—that the to alter the Constitution of a , as . materially to alter the. re- Uwe. Was the Noble Lord of as any Burgh in Scotland fell r to that in which Montrose had gh might be revived by an act was no argument in favour of y that the new sett granted to r to the old one. If the Grown, uthority, could give a Consti e enlarged than that which ori ght, if it chose, give one worse It was his object to bring the ;sae as might enable him meal' House to a more extensive eon. ect after Easter. What he called power of the Crown to alter the Burghs. Supposing that Parlia o consideration the gross state of and should effect an amelioration Lase would Scotland have to re if the moment afterwads Mini : all that had been done ? There which he wished to advert. The very well that there was a So alled the Convention of Burghs. I actually altered the constitution -ghs. how, if it had the right - Majesty's Government had also e begged to know to which of Burgas most submit as supreme which they must consider as sub nement many of the B•irglis of erwliclrned with debt, that no ed fur their expenses, and the arable alarm for their property. cording to the best authority on sses were li able for the debts of ::hs were involved in the ereatest and were threatened v. disso. al interests were concerned, he .ate of degradation and abuse fallen, would excite the sym- House. But he would not r . al•er say too )n this subject, as his (.1 acct v - as 1 net to proyoke any animosity, !e. might lAjure the cure. The :d with moving, that tio_.rc Lc a Copy of the Act aid Wor n Council, in Septenther,. 1 , 47, I Brethren and Inhabi'ant Bur- gesses of the Burgh of Montrose to elect At persons to serve as Magistrates and Town Council in that Burgh, and ordering en alteration of the former Constitutidh of the said Burgh, in electing the Ma• gistrates and Town Council in all time coming. Lord.CA4TLEREAGH said, the speech of the Noble LOrd had been. marked with • every of candour; and he was very anxious as ca ndidly to to state the grounds on which he saw objections to pro ducing the document for which the Noble Lord had moved. It was very true, the Noble Lord had stated, that it was not his with to connect the particular re form which he wished,' with any general Reform in the Representation—he had rather in view an im provement in the administrative than the representa tive character of the Burghs ; but though he bad not opened the general question of Parliamentary Re form, he could not separate the subject from it., The Reform which he wished would lead to an extensive change in the Burgh Elections of Scotland, and, therefore, would carry Reform into the representation of that part . of the country. 7 ..He would contend that there were not . very strong-grounds for the produc tion of the document, evetocm, the more limited ground of improvement in rho .6siminisi e 4on of the Scotch Burghs. TZlere might he defects e 'that aditiinistra tion, as there were defects in every institution • but in so far as his Majesty's Ministers, front being ch arged with the peace of the country, were acquainted with the-state of the country, he.could say that there was no part of the country where the population was in a sounder state than in the Burghs of ScotUnd--(Acar.) -Order and decorum marked the national character of Scotsmen, and no where was that order and de corom more conspicuous than in the Royal Burghs. There seemed, however,.a defect in the Low of Scot land with respect to the Burghs—they had no power to take cognizance of their pecuniary concerns, nor to enter into the subject of the administration of the funds. But this evil would be obviated by the Bill, of which notice had been given. With respect to assuming a right of taxation, he really could not conceive, that in any of the Burghs the Magistrates and Town- Council would think of setting up any such arbl tra.ry right of assessing their fellow-citizens, or that there could be any difficulty in resisting an attempt of such a nature. It was vain to think of separating , the question .of Reform, from . givingto the ,Bur gesses the faculty of electing their Magistrates--the Noble L ord could not state any pract i cal utility in the PrOlected change, except with a view to a Reform in the Representation. The doctunents, moved for could throw np light on the general questieniof Reform. As to the queition of the legality of what had been chine ' he thought th e lipase :were not likely to be gocl: judges on sucha.subject=(kear.) Whether the Charter was or was not legal according to the Law of Scotland, was rather a question for the decision of a Court of Law, han for the decision of that.. House. Now, there was no individual of Mont rose affected by the change who had not his legal re ined , and who might not ma Court Cou of Law question the . a li ty of' the election of Magistrates under the L A new • after. The question milt aim be brought forward in the Convention of Burghs—that Conven tion miglsCrefuse admission to the Delegate . from Montrose, andtben the:Owls:l f'hether that Dele gate ha a. right of admiesion or net, might be agi tate& 114 i the Nob] had nit: uLdellat, though ' ''' Ministers c alit was,geoci in.i .- via . erwards .. • • at* arramias of a` Very., ' Brent character, to favour pasiacular political ' views, But here, it ap peged„. *a the Act had groivn out of the eircum . . . stancp of t h e suspension. of all the, powers of the Burgh. The relief was generally solicited—there was not one eomplaining party, ; and therefore it was unfair to consider an Act called for under such cir cumstances,. the beginning . pf ap arbitrary - system of interference with Consututioni of the Burghs. It was epough to ;chew, that in the present case . the Crown had not wantonly invaded the corporate rights Of the Burgh. Ailci the questions whether the Crown was authorised to act in this manner, it might came before the House in a much more suitable way than by the present motion. It was not impossible that the election of the Member for the class of Burghs to which Montrose belonged, might be questioned by the unsuccessful candidate, and a Committee of the House, acting on their oaths, under the Grenville Act, might have to dispose of it. Mr. ABERCROMBY contended this question was completely separated from that of Parliamentary Re form. He did not consider that by his vote on the present motion he was committing himself on the question of Parliamentary Reform. He did not see how it could be considered as connected with Parlia mentary Reform, except in so far as any question 1 which had reference to the . persons who returned Members to Parliament could be considered a ques tion of Parliamentary Reform. Had the Crown in this case only exercised those powers which were ne cessary to give activity to the administration of the Burgh which was suspended by the non-election of Magistrates at the proper time, then no complaint could have been made, bat not content svith this, the Crown had completely altered the sett of the Bergh. The alteration seas, no doubt, very beneficial in this instance ; but a precedent was established for a very different exercise of power in future. The Noble Lord had told them the question might be discussed with' more propriety elsewhere. But it was not likely that any of the inhabitants of Montrose, who were all pleased with the alteration, would call it in question in a Court of Law. A Committee, under the Gren ville Act, might decide on the merits of a particular election, but could not with propriety decide the ge neral question. There could not, in fact, be 1 subject more fit for the interference of the House than the present. He could have wished that his Noble Friend's motion had been more complete—that he had also moved for the ad sett of the Burgh, that the House might see the eitent of the alterations made by the Crown in this case. If the Crown had exer cised a power which did not belong to it, this was a fit subject for Parliamentary interference. In 'the course of the present year, five or six Burghs would be in the same state as that in-which the Burgh of Montrose had been. As having some connection with Scotland, he was glad to hear from 'the Noble Lord , a languai 4 e respecting that country so different from, that which he had heard from Mitt. before—all was now smooth and tranquil, there were no Secret Corn niittees . and it was all owing to th e excellent Magi:- rfiter ietheßurghs of.Sooland that %nags went on so smooth! y. The LO E/11 ADVOCATE contended, that no per son in that IfOese 'had ever charged Scotland with being generally disaffected—it was only Glasgow and its neighbourhood to whiCh the diarge of taking Me• gal oaths applied. The Noble Lord (Lord A. Ha milton) had said, the Magistrates and Council of the Burghs possessed an unlimited power of taxing the property of persons residing in the Burgh. The No ble Lord had forgot, that in the Declaration of Grievances, at the Revolution, to levy money with out the consent of Parliament was declared contrary to law. He would ask the Noble Lord, if in any of th9se Burghs which he declared to be in a state of utter insolvency, a'single suit had ever been brought forward against any one of the inhabitants for pay meat of the debts of the community. From thelle volution downwards, with one single exception in appearande, which he should explain, no case had occurred of Butgesses being liable for debts con tracted by their Magistrates. He renew that opinions had been giveq that the inhabitants were liable for the debts of the Burgh by Counsel—(Hear, hear,) but though these opinions had been given years ago, no suit had ever been commenced on them. Ile could tell the Noble Lord that. the Magistrates of some Burghs had attempted to levy petty customs for the ' defrayment of the peblic debt ; in Aberdeen, for in stance; but the question was ultimately decided, on appeal to the House of Lords, that the Magistrates of Burghs had no such pbwer to levy customs. The Noble Lord had referred to a case decided by the i s.of Aschequer, but he mistook it. By an old Scots nStiti v e, it was alleged the Barons of the Ex chequer were empowered to audit the accounts of Royal Burghs ; bet in the case in question, the Ba rons refused to sustain their jurisdietion. This was, however, merely a question of audit. There was hardly a year in which applications were not made to the Legislature by Burghs, for a power of levy ing money to pay debt; surely, if an Act of the Town Council wax a sufficient authority, they would not have been so ill advised as to apply to Parliament. —The Noble Lord had stated, that the inhabitants of the' Scots 'Burghs were placed in. a stars of the greatest servility ; but the power in Magistrates and other Office-bearers of appointing their sarcessors, was mot worse khan the power of holdiiig their'places for life, In a great many parts-of EngTaricrihe'bra , gistrates of Boroughs were appoiited for Fife.- The' Noble Lord woulififind• the power exercised by the Crown in thecasalof the Burgh of Montrose, was virtually recognized in the Declar idon of Grievances.' The complaint in that declaration against King James: was not for altering the Constitutions of Burghs, but' for having done so of his own a ithority, " without jedgment, surrender, or consent." In the case of the Burgh of Stirling, in 1782, a s'nfilav warrant had been granted. • Counsel had bee h heard in that ease before the new constitution was granted, and after-, wards, though the affairs of that Burgh came befi'ire the Court of Session three times, and isefofe five or six Committees of Elections in the Houser.of. Cori" mons, it had never been 'objected, that the warrant in the case of that Burgh was void and null. j n l 4t119 hf 90, there was a motion re s pecting the'atate ((the Scots th ere in tie ltepert of that Com mittee the modes Were diseneseittn which alteratioas could be legally made by contsket time, by the Burghs themselves, and by alinialscdt **Crown.— The case of Stilling was alf-~lo;*attid„ the right &altering the sett, as was done itil7SPor 2, was not questioned. That alteration in Stirling was pre cisely the same as that in the Burgh - of Montrose.— There was, therefore, no ground fdr the allegation that this exertion of the prerogative of the Crown was illegal. He had been asked' by-the-Noble Lorch.l whether he intended tb propose 'the same alteration in every )3uigb; which, by neglect, might be dis franchised? He should answer no: Every case must stand on its owns merits--(heir, hear, hear 4-- The same Constitution could not possibly be applied to all the Burghs, because electors, with the same qualifications, c ould not be had in 'all 'of them, un less all the ezdasive pri s ir i i i lers, which had existed for ages, should' be abolielt was said that the 'question did tiououch on TarlbunentaTy Reform.— This was true, if the queitiosNivre confined to the, consideration of the particular if,' in defis ance of the Act of Union, it stariatended du ce . a new system of election • ist ilrthe turght; -it would have the same effect ag a sweeping measur e of Parliamentary Reform--(ffear, from the Oppo sition). The Gentlemen dpposite imagined there was an inconsistency in this- argument ; but he contended that the power which the Crown had enjoyed-before the Union, was continued to it by that Act. His assertion in the last Session, that the people of Scot land were satisfied with the Constitution of `their Burghs, he would repeat. He did not mean that they were unanimous. The Scots • Were, not famous for unanimity, as it was alWays'samposed that an argu ment was a favourite amusement with that ancient people. But he had no doubt the tnajority were sa tisfied, though great pains had been taken to excite a ferment. In four-fifths of 'the Burghs there had been no meeting, and in the others the meetings had taken place among those sibordinate Corporate Bo dies, who wished to have the privilege of choosing their own Deaconi. He was convinced there would be a general feeling of alarm, if a general change were apprehended. Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH said, he should not enter into the question of Parliamentary Reform, nor 'that of dry law, which was connected with the pre sent motion, because the present was an unfit time to discuss the one, and the Hbuse of Commons was an improper tribunal to decide on the other. lie thought the motion of his Noble Friend had heenl hardly dealt with, 'in being considered a motion sub servient to Parliamentary Reform. It was strange that a motion which called in question the legality of a change in any one Burgh should be vitaved as lead ing to universal change. This seemed a paradox, which the Learned Lord had chosen for the purpose of displaying his ingenuity; but in supporting it he had forgotten his arguments. The Learned Lc , rd had used an argument connected with the question of Parliamentary Reform, which he could not help noticing. He had said, that it was strange that those who should blame the Scotch Burghs did not blame the close Boroughs in England. There were song.. close Boroughs, and some in which there were rights of popular election ; but in Scotland there were none of the latter description ; so that whoever supported the English Constitution could not like the Scottish. In England, though the system might be, in surni. respects, Improved, there WAS ti Yktitti of Mocks n: election, which had been falsely► blamed, as Tr 0- ,ducing an inadequate representation ; but which, op the whole, produced a representation more complete than any mode which should proceed on the basis ot uniformity. (Hear, hear.) But in Scotland there was the most perfect uniformity on an oligarchical principle. He contended that any Uniform represin• cation was bad. Universal Suffrage was, indeed, the worst of all—(hear, hear,)—if not a monstrous incons sistenty with all forms of human society. % Hea►s) It never existed in this countrT, and if it had, be should have thought its abolition the best plan of Reform—(hear. ) in Scotland there was an Uni■ fortuity of the opposite kind. There was no popular election, or pretence to popular election. So that Scotland, though it by the Union enjoyed the protc4• tion of the free Constitution of England, did not in the nobler sense participate in it. It was a gross fallacy, therefore, to compare the state of the RM• presentation in Scotland to that of England- 7 (hear.) He did not, with to speak to the dry legal question, but legal questions affecting the Constitution, and particularly the rights of election, were peculiarly subjects for the considenstion of that House, 'the question now was, whether or not the Crown possessed the power of reviving a Bergh, the charter of which had been lost by intermission of elections, but whe ther it possessed the power of altering the constitu tion of it? This was a question over which great doubt hung. He did , not mean to give an opinion on it. The right rested on a single case, that of Stir , ling, which had never been decided on in a Court of Lew, or in Parliament. I 4 such a case it was the duty of the House to require information, and he should therefore vote for the motion. Mr. J. P. GRANT said, he should not give any opinion on the points oflawdiscussed by the Learned Lords, hut if the Crown had by lit,/ the power, in case of the suspension of the functions of a Corpora tion by accident, which might frequently happen, he suggested whether it would not be proper to sug gest some regulatiels on that subject. He thought the Ministeis thErnselves, if-they saw that such cases were likely to be frequent, would themselves be apt to come to Parliament to request its opinion on such a-subject. The motion, dAly, went to the production of ti . clo.ctuvfnt, "aud'aitt3,lYe ktitcr not what horror, syliielsjhe .Z 41 1 1141 = N4l.lltlnd, of he knew not #hir t lS-art °Nuked with the motion, it was Sltdgeflief ujificanlfed. : At - to the quietness of the people, under the present . system, he had very dif ferent informationfrorn that of the Learned Lord. Nu merous applications had heti made by the Court of Session t o set aside the lateelections, with a view to obtain disfranchisement, °Flo get poll elections.— He thought the question should be brought before Parliament, as he did not see how it could properly he taken conizance of in a Court of Law. R. F I'ItGUSSON supported the motion. No one who looked at the deplorable state of the Repre sentation in Scotland, could agree in the eulogies which had been pronounced on it. The people wer., not in a state of fermentation, but of great an iiAy for a better system, of which they, had..a good ex ample in the new constitution of Montrose. lie then read the parting address of ..the late Magistrates of Abercieeth who declared their decided opinion that anew Ciatstitasian was necessary, for the sake both of Ore litagistrates and people. This. address was viiihtn-bytlernen who..had been in the uniform habit - of supporting his Majesty's Ministers. The hope of a change in the Constitution of the Burghs had been fostered by the Commissioners at Montrose, one of whom, the Sheriff of Perthshire, praised the li beral Constitution which the paternal Government of the country had given them, and adduced it as a proof that the Ministers were willing to effect Re form when Reform was necessary. He hoped his Ma jesty's Ministers would act up to the liberal ideas whirl were thus praised -by their warmest adherents. Lord ARCHIBALD HAMILTON replied.—He observed, that the Learned Lord, while he said that the Burgesses were not liable for the debts of.the Burghs, he had not said against what other persons the creditors could, recover. That declaration would, dhe had noouhr urge itie);tikh &editors to be more sws4l Pressing. ferWara Vlelr Ciairni,. kid bring the tlfirrs.o f Some Birrkh? thrstoner toa.rritis. The . oitis'st s ton . was. certainly wof thy'Of beiniesettleti, whe ther'the*Miivit. had a legal rower to - make alterations in the Constitutitins of 'Burghs for if it' nithr be done, the influence of the Ctsrwn was so-great; that it , might het an application -made for any alteration lichlels:its , Ministers conceived to be convenient. He r4e'c'" oAsenended;no specific motion on the subject; hut he wished -to•bring; br.the production of the docu ment he moved for,--the'subjeet before the House.— Lord Archibald Hamilton then read a .statement of the condition of Aberdeen, to prove the mismanage moot of the Burgh Funds. Aberdeen had beers one of the richest Corporations in Scotland ; its fUnds were now dissipated, and it was 230,000/. in debt. They had, during a few years, borrowed 57,0001. to ray the interest of their debt. The Magistrates were c.r-lido managers of the Charities in the neighbour hood, and they had borrowed their funds—even to the poors' funds—of every Kirk Session which would lend them. They had debts as high as 25,000/. and as low as 21.—}le appealed to an Honourable Mem ber present if this was not substantially correct. Simi lar facts, to a greater or less extent, might be ad duced in the case of half the Roy.d Huth s in Scotland, as he could prove before a Committee of the House. Mr. FARQUHAR observed, that the affairs of the Burgh had lately experienced considerable -improve meat. So far from being in the state which the Noble Lord represer.tcd, they hr.cl actually paid four and a half per cent. on their debt, and were now in a condition to pay five per cent. In addition to this they had a sinking fund sufficient to discharge the principal. They had expended nothing beyond the it means, having at this moment in their po..sessicn a surplus of about GO. or 70,00 C/. Undoubtedly they experienced difficulties, but they had surmount ed them, so that upon any fair view of the case there was nothing to call for inquiry. Mr. 1:01:13F,S stated, in confirmation of what had fallen from the last speaker, that the Burgh was in volvt'd in some difficulties by the purchase of a large quantity of ground which.for•some years they could not let out on buiLing leases, but lately they had made a considerable number-of fens. .liven under their difficulties they ' , Kers+ only 1,400 rivals of the whole interest on the sum Jim: = I Mere were general'.y two sides to .IC:a the .No. 1 .1 ' I I i ' 1 1 1 : l i l :- i' t . *k. t 'SO ' I # ii ! 1 I "°1 'rl ‘i , 11; - 1 ~I ‘ I I , I.* I i , ~, 0., I ,Ai .. 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