Star. — London, England, 1824-03-06 00:00:00

the o bject of Ministers had been popularity, they yrould o t have selected this measure ; but he believed that they b a d done so from a sincere desire to promote the in terests of commerce —( Hear, hear). Sir JOHN NEWPORT.—He considered Ministers w e entitled to the approbation of the flow* and of t he country for having proposed this measure --(Hear, heo). It was matter of great praise for them, That when they might have proposed measurei, which would pro cote for them popularity, they disregarded everything asst the interests of commerce, incurred obloquy, and, pr oposed a. measure which be believed Would be ulti mately productive of the greatest benefit. Great dis tress would, perhaps; follow upon this measure; hoe it was the duty of the House to look that danger in the face, and . to support, as he should, a measure pregnant with so much benefit. Mr. EGERTON saw no reason why a system under which the silk trade flourished should be altered. Captain MAIIERLY maintained the propriety of the proposed alteration. Mr. THOMAS WILSON gave credit to his Majesty's Ministers for the candour with which they brought for ward the measure; but he thought it would be only a half measure if unaccompanied with a revision of the Corn Laws. Mr. LYTTLETON said, when the question came re gularly before the House he should oppose ir. Mr. HUME wished to know who were the Petitioners? Were they masters. or workmen, or both ? He approved most sincerely of this measure, which instead of hurting either master or workmen, would benefit each to the amount of 25 per sent. more than they now enjoyed.— for his part, he firmly belicied the Petitioners would have to thank the Ministers yet.for the results which would follow the measure, notwithstanding their present hostility to the proposed alteration. Sir J. WROTTESLEY objected to the tone of re monstrance adopted by the last lionourable Member and the advocates of the new commercial anti political prin. ciples. They'told them they were better judges of their 'interest than they were themselvei. But he would tell that Honourable Member that the Petitioners bad stated that if the Measure were proceeded in, the whole of this till now happy class of artisans would, as a matter of course, be discharged. Ile strongly impressed on the flight Honourable Gentleman (the Chancellor of the' Exchequer), that instead of applying, the surplus now intended to be applied to the building of Churches and Winds& Castle repairs, he should apply it to the reduc tion of the Window Tax, which would relieve the poorer classes of artisans of taxes to theunsount of 1,i00,000/. and would be more sensibly felt by them than any other possible relaxation of the pressure of taxation. Mr. J. SMITH could not 'but feel opposed to the' seine of the Petitioners, as he could not see anything to apprehend from the reduction of the duty on the huh port on silk, which was a raw material adapted to our ' manufactures. He had no hesitation in saying that the, country ought to be grateful, and would be so very shortly, to Ministers, for their adoption of more liberal' sentiments of commercial policy. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER felt that the sentiments he had on a former night advocated his financial statement had either been so ably en breed by some of. his colleagues in office, or by the li beral admi,sions of some chi the opposite side of the Rothe, that it would:tte a loss "of time to enter more fully than partially to rerly - tolhe observations of the Honourable B.sronet 'and..she .. Member for Coventry. He was as convinced as oily. ia.that House of the neces sity of 'coming to a decision soon upon these questions as to telaxation of duties-on imports. Convinced of the inconvenience of delay to the parties engaged in the tilde, he would confess that if he had only been acting of himself, or from his own impression, he should be fore this have sucmitted the details of the proposed al teration of duties to the House, He, however, in com- pliance with the representation of parties interested, had been much occnpied with their attendances and statements for above a week. He should be able to finish the consideration of these subjects he hoped by Monday, on which day he should subMit to the House, when in Committee on the Customs Acts, the whole details on this subject distinctly—( Near). Mr. Alderman BRYDGES, after detailing the flue• tuations which had taken place in the Silk Trade of other countries, implored the Ministers, whom he now, had in his view —(A laugh)—(The Honourable Member at this =mem perceived he had insensibly advanced nearly into the centre of the House, and opposite 'his Majesty's Ministers), to approach the subject of these representa t io ns w i t h a d ue co n s id erat i on o f the inconve nience and distress wine]; they were likely to experience, according to their impression of its deo. If these im• pressions were well founded, they were of the most se rictus consequence, as it had been stated that not less than 60,000 persons would be thrown out of employment. Mr. CURTEIS was anxious to see the attention of, Ministers turned to the alleviation of the agricultural difficulties of the country, as welt as those of the mer cantile interests. Firm-house windows should, he thought, be entitled to exemption from duty as well as shop-windows of fradespeople; and the tales on leather, malt, or hops, were in his mind, and in that of the com munity, more desirable subjects for reduction than either silk or wool. • •Mr. MUNDY said, that representations had been made to him by different silk-weavers at Derby, that by the introduction of the new duties they would lose {tom 2001. in some cases, to 20001. in others, in consequence of the stock on hand. Mr. HALDIMAND earnestly' hoped the Right Hon. Gentleman would not persevere in his intention. As to a free trade with India, he denied the fact of our having a free trade with India, as had been said, so long as the Company had a controul over the persons who might go out to India to carry on trade there. He mentioned a case within his owaimmediate knowledge. It was a case of a mercantile house, which had applied for leave to the Directors to send out to India, on commer- , vial business, a young Gentleman in their employment. .o that appli cat i on t h ey rece i ve d a re f usa l ; an d u po n inquiry further the house found there was no "reason to hope for redress, should they resolve to apply to the Hoard of Coittrouls He would ask whether a permis sion to trade with India under such circu instances of restriction, could or ought to be dignified witty the epi thet of a free trade P Mr. PORTER said, the persons he represented were as mach dissatisfied with this alteration as arty other ; lint because they were adverse so much to the increased liberality of the system, as that they thought the pre sent was not the in , trnent for such an experiment. Mr. W. W. WYNN did not rise to enter into the dis sussion generally, hut to offer an observation relative to tile case now alluded to.' Though an attentive Meinber 't that Board, he recollected.. no such case as that I liladed to. There were many cases in which the • - `•_~l:.a Board of 'Conittiol had &Toed in opinleas with the Court of Directors; but he believed there was no case in which an objection had been persevered in where the Person applying to go out to India had a reasonable hope-of obtaining a livelihood. Mr. HALDINIAND said, the case he alluded to had occurred within the last three months. The party ap plying was named Brownrigg, Whom the house of Messrs. Farmer and Co. were anxious to have out in India. The answer of the Directors Was, that there were many young men competent to clerkships already at Calcutta nut of employments Mr. WYNN explained, that from the nature of the Company's charter, the natives and half castes were by law entitled to be employed as clerks in the counting houses of European firms in Calcutta. Unless the whole system of Indian po:icy were about to be altered they must still be eligible. This person was only going out as clerk, and was liable to be.. dismissed the 'day after his landing. The objection was therefore well founded, since it might happen that this young man might be thus thrown on the world, and become charge able to the East India Company. Sir THOMAS LETHBRIDGE contended, that the system proposed to be acted upon by the Right Hon. Gentleman was impracticable and contrary to the best interests of the country. It was absurd to say that no trade ought to be carried on which would not maintain it self, because many such trades had been fostered by Go vernment and provided employ meat for thousands. With the immense debt we had, it was impossible to carry on a free trade in cotton, woollen, or silken articles. Eng land had always been an artificial country. This was a position which not even the Honourable Member for Taunton could deny in his counting-house or his private study. Though he entertained the highest respect for the deceased author of these liberal doctrines (Mr. Ri cardo), yet he felt that,whenever that intelligent per son committed his thoughts to the Press there was dis cernible contradiction on contradiction. The Honour able Member who represented the silk interest in that House was himself at a loss to digest the proposition. As for a flee trade in corn, he would ask the House, when the agricultural-interest was loaded with the ex cessive poor and parish rates, county rates, and other rates, in contemplation by his Noble Friend near him and the. Chancellor of the Exchequer, together with the expensive rate of the rearing and growth of corn, whe ther it was passible they, or any one out of doors, could imagine the agriculturists could live under a system of a free trade in corn? lie had asked a protecting duty of 23 per cent. cow 201. per cent. was demanded for silk ; in fact all and each must be protected. At the same time he must pay he should be sorry that • corn should be higher in price than it was at the present day. Live and let live was his motto. In conclusion he would observe that he believed the best popularity that Minis ters could procure would be by the partial further re peal, if not total repeal, of the Assessed Taxes. Mr. EVANS could not understand the distinction that had been attempted to be drawn as to the effect of reducing the duties on materials of manufacture. He , could easily conceive that a diminution of duties might in some cases be more beneficially felt than a reduction of direct taxation, because the former created a corre sponding activity. Mr. BROWNLOW said he had been informed the House would soon have before it a Petition for the non repeal of the Union Duties. In fact, Irish cotton goods had been imported into this country lately, and sold as Manchester cotton. Mr. 13ARING observed, that the , case as between England and Ireland was very different from the case as between England and its Colonies abroad. He. would go to the extent of supposing a free trade in raw com modities, and a free transit trade,. only as far as this country obtained something as a reciprocity. If they proceeded on a principle of free trade to this extent, they would proceed on a great mistake with respect to the state of the world. The moment a free trade was opened, ganchester would send her cotton goods, and Stafford her pottery, to France; but Lyons would un doubtedly send her silks here. It would be quite dif• ferent if the opening of trade was completely recipro- cal. The Right Honourable Gentleman the Secretary for the Home Department asked why the question of labour did not shew itself in cotton as Well as silk The reason was, that the cotton got immediately into the machine, without much previous preparation. Silk was not so susceptible of being worked by machinery. There was no exportation of silk from this country, ex cept of India silk and silk stockings. They had no ' , ' manufacture of French or Italian silk. He gave his Majesty's Ministers credit for their financial measures. Their conduct was marked by a desire to promote the real interests of the country, not to catch at temporary popularity. In the present case, however, he thought the opposition was well founded. ' This he did not say merely in concurrence with the wishes of his constitu ents, for he would support no view of this or any other question-which he firmly believed to be ill founded. After a few words from Mr. DAVENPORT, in support of the petition. it was ordered to be printed. GREAT BRITAIN AND SOOTII AMERICA. Sir J. MACKINTOSH said, that having c a refully perused the papers which were last night laid upon the table of the House, he rose to propose to the Right Honourable Secretary for Foreign Affairs one or two questions upon subjects connected with them. The first of these questions would be, whether any answer had yet been received from the Court of Madrid to the dis patch from this Government, dated the 30th of January? (Hear.) If such an answer bad been received by his Majesty's Government, he presumed there could be‘no objection on their part to lay it before the House. His second question was, whether his Majesty's Government possessed the decree, or, if not the original, even an authentic or accurate copy of the decree said to have been made by Ferdidand VII. professing to regulate the commerce of vast countries in South America that had long ceased to acknowledge his authority ? If such copy was in the possession of Ministers, he supposed i there could be no objettion to its production. He should also he de i ous—and to this he could anticipate no objection—that there should be laid before the House a copy of the treaty entered into between Great Britain and Spain, in the year 1810; which treaty was referred to in that di Tatch of the 30th of January, as granting to British subjects a right of trade with the subjects of Spain in the two hemispheres—(Heer, hear). Now, be knew it was possible that that treaty might have been printed, or ha ' e been, in some shape or- other, already laid before Parliament. If so, he was not aw*ie of the fact; but he presumed that the treaty alluded to could not be that, which was made with Adniiial Apodaca, for•that WAS made in 1809. If it had not been printed, he should either move that it be printed, or give notice of a motion for its production, according to the answer which he might receive to the questions which he had addressed to the Right Honourable Secretary. • Mr. Secretary CANNING observed, that to the ques tions. of his Honourable and Learned Friend, he would answer separately, but he would invert the order in which those questions had been put. And first, as to the supposed treaty , between Spain and Great Britain. No such treaty was in existence to the best of his know ledge. In the year 1810, when this country promised to interpose her mediation between Spain and her colo nies in America, it was merely upon an understanding between the two Governments that the coast law of (pain was suspended AS between the subjects of the two nations. No instrument, as far as he had ascertained, was in existence, in which this agreement was recorded. Any motion, therefore, by his Honourable and Learned Friend upon the subject of this supposed treaty ,would be unnecessary, for there would be nothing to produce. As to the second question propounded about the de cree, he knew of that only as a matter of public noto riety ; but he really could not say whether it bad been, yet communicated to his Majesty's Government in that authentic shape that would entitle it to be considered us a document in their possession. He (Mr. Canning) ra ther thought it had not been so communicated, but that any knowledge of it which might be possessed by his Majesty's .Government was derived from its having ap peared in the ordinary way in the public journals. lf, however, such a decree had been communicated to then), they would undoubtedly nut object to lay it be fore Parliament. As to the third question, whether any answer had been received from Spain in reply to the dispatch of the 30th of January, he had no objection to, cute all that it 'was in his power to state about the matter. He believed that an answer simply acknow-' ledging the receipt of the dispatch had beers received byl this Government. In reply to the remaining part oft %Nina had been addressed to him that evening by his Ilonourable and Learned Friend, be would merely say, that there were circumstances which would prevent his (Mr. Canning; s) stating; to the House at present any thing further as to the precise state - in which this country nowl stood with respect to America. The Right Honour-' able Gentleman added, that the- dispatch in ques tion was not laid before Parliament while it was yet upon its way to Madrid, because, had it been laid On the table at an earlier period, it Was obviously possi ble that the Court of Madrid might have read the im' portant dispatch in question in the public papers of this country before it reached them in its more authentic shape. It was upon this account he begged his Ho nourable and Learned -Friend to postpone his motion. The moment that an official answer should be received to that dispatch, it should be laid before Parliament... ( Hear, hear.) The scope of his Honourable and Learned Friend's motion (for theuth it was riot shaped in this manner, it clearly lent to this extent) was to in duce his Majesty's Government to lay before Mist meni such documents and papers as might shew to the House the principles upon which Government had hitherto acted, and intended in future to act, in regard to America. But he freely told his Honourable and Learned Friend, that if the communications which Mi. nisters had already made on this subject, had been such as to entitle them to the confidence of Parliament, he should resist every attempt to extort further informa tion, or to compel the production of further papers re lative to these matters under the present. state of cir cumstantei. lf, on the contrary, the communications which Government had made bad not entitled them to the confidence of Parliament, his Hon. and Learned Friind would be at liberty to take his own course upon this important affair. Sir J. MACKINTOSH, in explanation, said lie had listened - to every word that had fallen from the Right Honourable Secretary; but as at present advised, he' saw nothing to induce him to alter his original inten. don, Which, at a future day, he should be disposed to carry into effect. OAOL ACT AMENDMENT DILL. On the question that this Bill be read a second time, Mr. G. BENNET intimated his intention of opposing several enactments of the Bill in Committee. He called the attention of the House to the severe inequality of the punishment of the tread-mill (to the discipline of which, -properly applied, he was friendly), owing to the absurd varieties - of construction upon which those mills were built in different parts of the country. The Hon. Mem ber then referred to some calculations which' had been made of the degrees of labour in some tread-mills, corn. pared with others. From these, it appeared, that taking the height of the Monument to be 172 feet, the per- sons working in some tread-mills ascended the height elf that building 82 times, in others, 83 times, and others again, 96 times, in the course of one day's work. He next adverted to a letter from the keeper of Lancaster gaol, in which it was stated that 10,000 feet of labour (of ascent on the wheel) was sufficient for the labour of one man in the course of a day, and that by a calcula tion it appeared that a day's work of 12,000 feet of ascent was equal to the labour of walking 37 miles on level ground. In the Committee he would propose to limit the labour of the men to 10,000 feet, and that of women to 8,000 feet, in the coarse of one day. With respect to inferior prisons belonging to local jurisdic tions, he observed that most of them were destitute of the ordinary conveniences of a prison ; some were' without bedding, some without allowance of fire, and others witheut any employment or religious instruction. to obviate those evils, he would move in the Comnfittee, that the provisions of the Bill should extend to those places ; that the local Magistrates should be obliged to commit the prisoners to the county jail, and pay a cer tain portion for their maintenance, and that they should be obliged to send lunatic prisoners to some asylum.. . Mr. Secretary PEEL said that he concurred the last speaker entirely in the propriety of not 'sending un tried prisoners to the tread-mill. The last Act gave the Magistrates the power of putting them to such work, if the parties wished it; but it was a misconstruction of that Act to say, that Magistrates could compel untried prisoners to work, by threatening to withhold from . them the prison allowance, if they refused. He was surprised at this construction of the Act, the words of which were, he thought, so plsin; but to prevent any future mistake, he would introduce a clause, that no untried prisoner should be compelled to do any work against-his will, but that whether he desired it or not he should not be put to the tread-mill— (Hear). With, respect to the plan of fixing a maximum of labour, he did not think it would be productive of any good. It 10,000 or 8,000 feet of ascent were taken as a maxim* a Magistrate'would have no disci etion ; and what might be an excessive degree of labour to one man, would be comparatively light to another. The calculation of' 12,000 feet of ascent on the mill being equal to 37' I miles of walking on level ground, was most extravagant and erroneous. It was founded on an assumption of the ' ascent on the wheel .being perpendicular. He denied . rtr that the labour at all corresponded to perpendicul**-- ascent. or that it was equal with that of dragging 041. the body at every step. But he had not heard—what vieuld be a more decisive objection—that the labour i f the mill was generally prejudicial to health, and he knew of nonearther which gave a more equal division of labour. Axis, smaller jurisdictions and local pry sons, 'he thought the lion. Ile caber's proposition of obliging the local Nlagistrate to commit to the county jail, would in gener:4l be rather a disadvantage than% a c•mvenietice to the party committed. Ile %sashed . tbAt the poser of local jurisdictions could, wiLliontatry vio lation of present interests, be tran , fer red to the Judges of the land ; but as they at present stood, he did not think the proposed change would be a benefit. The pte sent' Bill would not extend to inferior .p? i:ons, 'but he begged it not to be understood that he was on this ac count inditfetent to the state - of tau se prisons ; they might be the subject of a separate measure. With re spect to the last point, that of lunatic prisons, he did. not ee how the era could be remedied by the Bill. Sir I'. BARING was nut aversetu the u .e of the tread mill as a means of iunishme..t, if subjected to proper regulations, by which excessive labour might be avoided. Instances of great abuse had occurred trona the want of such regulations. One was a case of a woman com mitted in Surrey, Who,. though.only a short time after her eiccouchement, was, when sent to prison, put on the mill, from' which she was soon after taken in a state of great exhangieuf. . Mr. HOLME SUMNER complained, that the Hon. Baronet who Spoke last had not given a lair account of Mrs. Loder's case. She was committed for having bad an illegitimate child, which was the third which she had borne 'to three different men. He would - make a statement to the House which would prove that Work- Ping at the tread-mill had been beneficial to Mrs Luder. On the 31st of October she was weighed (a laugh), and her weight was eight stone two pounds. She was weighed again on the 13th of December, having, in the interim, worked on the mill, and her weight had in creased nine pounds. On the 2d June she was weighed again, not having been on the wheel since the 13th De cember, and it was found that she had loin two pounds. —(A laugh).—After a few words from Mr. %MAN, Mr. COURTENAY, and Mr. Alderman Woon, the Bill was read a second time, and ordeted to be comshiued on Monday. _ . . THE attritsi BILL. On the question that the House do resolve itself into a Committee on the above Bill, Mr. HUME rose and ohjecied to the measure, be- Cause it authorized the infliction of corporal punishuient on 73,000 Men. His attention was called to the subject by a circular recently issued by Lord Bathurst, recom mending the abolition of flogging in the West Indies. He could not uridertaand why a species of punishment which was considered improper to be used toward; slaves, should be inflicted upon freemen. Ile was ...con vinee&that the practice of' flogging degraded the army. The HO. Member next observed, that the inhabitants in the>neighbourhood of the King's Mews were greatly' annoyed by the cries of soldiers, who were almost daily flogged there. Independant of the corporal punish menu, there were regulations connected with Our mit tary system, which made it surprising that the Bill before the House should so long have passed without objection. Surely if there was one being more than another whose word ought to be undoubted, an Officer of the Army ought to stand in that estimation; and yet there was a. regulation existing at the present moment which en . - forced the necessity of telling a falsehood'ujson allititt • every man who came into the service. Every Officer who purchased a commission, and every Officer who parted with one, was compelled to declare on honour that he neither took nor gave more than the regulation - price ; while it was note:loos to the whole army, and must be notorious to the Duke of-York himself, that,.in nine cases out of ten, more v. . ; paid than the parties declared to. Suppose an Officer to be challenged in a Jury-box with this declaration—what would becense of his evidence—would credit be attached to it? He (Mr. Home) did hope that, far the future, no Officer would be called on to give any such- assurance. Upon the subject of the corporal punishment, be was loth to detain the House too long ; but he hoped that his Majesty's Mini ters, while they were protecting the black slaves, would not forget the white ones. He heard that there were some chips of war in our ser vice, in which dicipline had been Maintained for years, without the infliction of a single lash. He heard that - 'this had been done in some regiments: if in one, why not in all ? Of late years, a system had bein adopted of placing soldiers in solitary confinement he wished to know to what periods the confinement was used to be limited, and whether Government had received any re port as to its effects ? The plan of solitary confinement was one which he approved, provided the power was not left open to abuse; but he was surprised io hear that, in some instances, men who were put into cars finementforfeited their pay ; and that that pay actually went into the pockets of the Officers who sentenced diem—(Loud cries of " no.") Well Ihe should be glad to be told what was the practice of the Guards, and, indeed, of the army generally,-in that respect. The Honourable Member sat down, by Moving an instruz• lion to the Committee, to insert a clause iu the Mutiny Bill abolishity , flogging in the army. Sir HENRY lIARDINGE replied to that Part of the Ho. !mumble Member for Aberdeen's speech which refetied to the pit. nishment of soldiers in the barracks at the King's Mews. He begged to state, that during the last twelve months, ooe man only had been punished front the resident* Occupying those fittrteks ; but be thought decidedly that the power of Bogging was Makin* , to the discipline of the army. Mr. HUME explained. - Sir R. WILSON had al Ba y s mouldered corporal punishment to be equally cruel, degrading, and unnecessary. In Germany, is France, and even in Pruasla, it Was no longer practised. If it Was to be got rid of at all, it must bil got rid of by positive law ; or see, where a Commander recommended its disuse, regimental Officers might throw the blame upon him of pray accidental dia. order that followed. l'he present moistest was most favourable for abolishing a punishment which was disgraceful to the onion, and' ruinous to the character of the army ; we were not now, as in time of war, beating about the country to enlist the refuse of man kind ; but if the fear of flogging were removed, we might comprise our regiments of men to whom the disgrace of dismission from the aervice would he sufficient warning against misomdurt. Colonel WOOD observed, that the present sublet was a very pod one to make a speech upon ; but, as far as his experience had Row in the command of a militia regiment, to thought he could sot have maintained discipline without the power of corporal pa ailment. The Honoutable Member for Westminster (Sir Francis Burdett) bad, no doubt, rfficted good by the attention whidl he had formerly. paid to the question ; and he (Colonel Wood) firmly be lieved that that Honourable Member would more recently have ilisched upon it, if he had not been satisfied that no further benefit vial 'likely to t esult front his exertions. With respect to solitary confinement, the Commander.iteChiers notice had been drawn t. that point of arrangement ; and the utmost period of imprisonment was limited to six weeks. lle (Colonel Wood), however, strongly objected to sending menfhji way of punishment, to the tread-mill; and s° (while Honourable :Wandler, were talking of the bOOOW of the service) mixing refractory soldiers up with common felons Mr..JOll N. SMITH, apart from every question of military de- V .. Aarc.;:aialiC ..... r :~::::r dais