Star. — London, England, 1802-03-04 00:00:00

PdiRLLIMENTART PROCEEDINGS. HOUSE OF COMMONS, WEDNFSDAY, MAItCH.g. Mr. W. DUNDAS moped for leave to bring In a Bill to enlarge tie powers of an Ad for iinpofing a Duty of sd. Scots cat all Ale and Beer made in Dundee. Mr. Locsu.ra and Mr. Witmaroace were added to the Committee ott the Booktsllers Petition: _ The Hoek is a Cenunittee went through the Greenland Whale 'Weer/ and the Report was ordamito be received a -marrow. Ordered, ea the !notion of Mr.VANat , that tie Hoeft *mid to4norrow rsfolve itfelf into a Committee en the Dill to Weed the provifions at the Lords' Ad. TRANSFiR OF THE GOVERNMENT OF RENCOOLIN. Mr. W. Dumps: moved that the Bill for trans- ferring the Government of Bencoolen to Madras &wild be read a fecond time to•rnorrow. _ _ Mr. Jonmsrox faid, he did not mean to trefpafs on the attention of the Houfe at prefent, or to oppofe the motion ; but he confidered the Bill as one which deferred the ferions confideration of the Houk. The meafure propofed of transferring the offices of the Servants of the Company from SW Eftablifhment to another, was, in his opinion, a •iolation of the public faith, as pledged by feve ral Aas of Parliament, and particularly by that which renewed the Charter of the Eaft-India Com pany. It therefore ought to be maturely weighed before it was fuffered to pafs into a law. When the Cubic& came regularly under difcuffion, he should take the liberty of troubling the Houle with his fentiments. _ _ Mr. W. DUNDAS obferved, that it was his with, as undoubtedly it was the with of every Member, that the utmoft attention poffible fhould be paid to every Bill before it palled into a law. If the pre. fent meafure was not in Come refpea contrary to the Company's Charter, there would have been no occafion whatever for applying to Parliament to fanaion an alteration which had been found in slifpenfibly necetiary. The lion. Gentleman had too haftily, in his opinion, called that a violation of the public faith which was merely a reform cal culated to prevent an unneceirary wafte of the money of the Company. However, as the Hon. Member had eapreffed his determination to deliver . his Centiments upon the fubjeft, he &mid wait in expeaation of bearing fume folid teafiin for ob • - jeaing to the Bill. Mr. V•II3IITTAIRT faid, the alteration propofed, involved no queftion of breach of faith • 3 was for the reafons which had been llated on the day when his Hon. Friend moved for leave to bring in the Bill ; a meafure of necelfary local regulation. INDINNITY •ILL. Mr. VANSITTART moved the fecond reading of the Annual Qualification Indemnity Bill. He Rated that the Bill now before the Houfe differed from the former one, only with regard to two eir eumilances. After indemnifying perfons who bad omitted to qualify themfelves for offices, there were two claufes, one to indemnify perfons who bad omitted to (tamp certain inilruments . within-a li mired time; the principal objea to which this clank applied was, to allow further time for Ramping. Apprentices Indentures, upon payment of double duty ; the other chide was to indemnify perfons Who ailed as Solicitors and Proitors from the pe salty which attached upon their thing without taking out a certificate. He underßood there were many very refpeitable profeffional men who bad fallen within the tcopc of this penalty, without the leall intention of defrauding the Revenue. The chafe indemnified them againft any further penal. ties for aas done as Inch Solicitors or Proaors, and upon which no actions had been brought.— He trufted the Houfe would think they had already fuffered fufficiently by the penalties they had in curred, and been profecuted for. The operation of this chute was by allowing them further time. The Bill was read a fecond time and committed. Mr. AIMAIIDER brought up the Report of the Committee for confidermg the Ail allowing the duties on Cinnamon, Caffia Lignea. Raw Hides, and Bo: Wood. The Repert was agreed to, and Bills ordered upon the Refolutions. ARMY ISTINATILL The SACRITARY at WAR moved the Order of the Day for the Houfe to refolve itfelt into a Com mittee of Supply, and that the Army Ellirnates from the 25th of March to the 25th of May, be ing a perioci of sixty-one days, ibould be referred to the faid Committee. The SrIAIEIt left the Chair. The &MILITARY at WAIL raid, that the Army Ellimates now laid before the Committee, and on which he fbould propofe certain Refolutions, were calculated only for two months, and related to fame of the molt important and preifing of the Army Services. • They did not relate to all, but only to Come; of the mon particular Cervices • and among others, to Guards and Garrifons, VrooPs abroad and in the Plantations, Fencibles in Great . Britain and Ireland, Barracks and Foreign Corps: they were calculated on the fame fcaie with thee bean referred to the Committee of Supply, and the only alteration arofe from the change.of place of fome of the corps—fome of the regiments hav ing been transferred from one fervice to another. The Right Hon. Secretary then proceeded to cilia :negate the number of men for each head of fer vice, obferving, that if any Member was defitous 'of propofing any quellion referring to either of thofe fervices, he should be happy to communicate all the information in his power. He concluded by moving his fiat refolution. Mr. ELLIOTT rote to oppofe the motion, on the around that the vote of the Committee, in the relent fitnation of the country, ought to be to a much larger extent. He maintained that the country bad been in an. *anal Rate of war ever finceie conclufion of the Preliminaries of Peace. He was one who did not th ink himfelf "uni fi ed in g iving a qualified anent to the continuance of the Military and Naval Eltablithments of the country upon the fame kale of . . magnitude as prior to the figning of the Prchnunarr 7 T v reaty. It had been the invariable. and wife po • of the Width Government, in the regulation o its Mi litary and Maritime Eflablithments, to adapt them to the fituation of affairs upon the Continent ; to extend or to limit them according to the de gree of danger with which our own W country, or its poiteffimu t were *PLOby &OOP .. views of other Powers of Europe. in she eon& of the difcuffion upon the Preliminaries of Peace, he bad exprefed his difapprobation of the terms of them—fince that difcuffion nothing had petted to induce him to alter his opinion. 11 a l; Rill confidered that Treaty no lib alarming to the interells .of Great Britain than to the rights and liberties of every independent State in Eu rope. Before he proceeded further it was necef fary to anticipate Come of the arguments that might be urged againft him. As he had had the misfortune to differ upon the former occa fion from the majority of the Houfe, he felt it his duty now to exprefs' his feelings upon this point. That he had had the misfortune of differing from the majority of the Houfe, in refped of the Preliminaries of Peace, he had no relulance what ever in admitting ; but be was not fo loft to a fenfe of his duty as a Member of Parliament, not to know that he ought to bow to what was after- tabled to be the opinion of the Houle : fubmitting to its decifion, he cruted, however, he might Rate what was the convidien of his mind. He begged it td be diftindly underftood, that his opinion of the impolicy of the treaty of peace with the French Republic, not only remained unaltered, but that the reafons upon which that opinion had been founded, every day's experience had firengthened and con firmed. He ain thought,that when the noble Lord put his fignatnre to the Preliminary Treaty, he affixed it to an inftrument of great national ca/a mity ; to a document which would go down to 1 pofterity as the commencement of the decline of the fortunes, power, and independence of the kingdom. He was ready, notwithftanding what be thought of it, to bow to its terms. Parliament bad deemed it right, and he thould therefore think the faith of the country violated if it was not, as far as refpeded this country, carried into excels. tion. But he hoped he might be permitted to obferve, that the Houfe had, by giving its fandion to the Preliminary Treaty,, not bound itfelf to ac cede to it, if the circumftances under which it had given its approbation were altered. He mull lu:the Houfe againft the dangerous doarine, t r eaying agreed to the Preliminary Articles, it was precluded the right of animadverting upon them. He knew that many Gentlemen who bad given their approbation to the 'fignature of the Treaty, had been aluated by a hope that the Go vernment of France would have continued that fyftem of moderation which it profelfed to have adopted. Had the event juftified that hope, there might have been Tome leafon why the Minifter who had feed the Treaty thotdd (till demand the fupport of - the Houfe. He believed that many Gentlemen who had acquiefced in the Treaty had approved of it in confequenee of their fuppofing the Cifalpine Republic would have remained a fe parate and independent State. Had the French Government refrained from ambitioutly and un juftly violating the independence of the Cifalpine Republic, that country, from its pofition, would have formed a fecure barrier between France and Autlria, and the States of the Empesor of Ger many on the one hand, and France and the Sore reign Powers of Italy on the other. But we had had the mortification of experiencing, during the pendency of the negotiation, a fort of contume lious neglect and difregard on the part of the Government of France as to the interells of other Powers, which England had never, till now, been in the habit of fubmitting to. We had Peen the Firft Conful of France, during the' interval of a Preliminary and Definitive Treaty, proceed ing to Lyons, and after palling a few days in exhibiting a fcene of farcical pageantry, in conjundion with the Conftituted Authorities af (alibied to meet him, at length concluding his pompous mockery of the rights of nations, by i difcovering that there was no perfon throughout the whole habitation of the globe who was capable of managing the affairs of the Cifalpine Republic, and that - he was therefore induced to take upon' himfelf the important truft. He confeffed he was I not a little alarmed at the mode of reafoning I adopted by the Firft Conful ,• he feared if we per. fevered in our fubmiffion to fuch encroachments, it might occur to the Firft Conful that the fame mode of argument would apply to this country, and he might endeavour to place Great Britain under his protedion. He had returned to Paris, leaving io the Cifalpine Republic the name of an independent (late, but he had as completely annex- ed it to France as it was poffible—he had madeita cantonment for French Colliers, sind thus extended the frontiers of France along the greater part 41 Germany. He had alto, by a moil dextrous di- 1 piomatic manoeuvre, poffeffed himfelf of the Itle 1 of Elba, which had been exprefsly guaranteed to the Grand Duke of Tufcany. The Hon. Member Paid, he mull now call the attention of the Conl• mince to .a Treaty, concluded in a tone and ftyle to which independent Powers were ftrangers—be alluded to the Treaty with Portugal, by which - France had acquired interefts hoftife to this coun try. She had, by the acquifition of a large line of territory on the fouthern coati of America, obtained the means of fupplying their Well India Minds, and of endangering the fafety of our , own. He did with to a& the Noble Lord what was the aaual fituation of this country ? Whether we were negotiating a Peace ? Whether we were at war, or whether reprefentations had been made by Government aganift the ads of fraud and ambition committed by France ? Al though he would not appeal to the Noble Lord to anfwer him, it was his duty to call upon him to anfwer to the Committee, and to the Public, how it happened that, when we thought we were con. trading to g ive Porto Ferrajo to Tufcany, we were only • g it in the hands of the Grand placing Duke that he might transfer it to France ? Wow, when we were giving up the Weft India 'fiends, the was in poireilion of fuch a part of the Conti nent of America ugave her a prepaiderancy of I power in the Welt ndies- He was ilf opinion if Government bad treated with the Allies of France feparately, better terms might_ havelailen obtained. K. next referred to the-very large pottiest (Ohs French .navy which bid - ales, to the Well Indies, accompanied bylriiih and Duick fquadron. g He was aware it ' be neeefarl to [ O4 a rot P 047: raffc . to • Wfli Weal blit in fir* doubts .as to the policy of the ineaferet, at leak he thought it right France should be called upon to explain the object of the deftination of Inch a 'fleet. She had an undoubted right to dieribute her forces as the thought proper ; but England' , alto had a right to remonftrate againft, and refill any expedition the might undertake. He recol. leaed, in the year 1774, during the war between the Turks and the Ruffians, when the latter ob-' mined Come advantages in the Mediterranean, France imnsediately fent a fquadron of obferva tion. England upon that occafion (aid, if France perfifted in fending fuch a fleet, the mutt fend an other to watch its motions, and would bend GA for fail with them. If his Majelly's Minifters thought a large force was neceffary in the Weft Indies, they thould have made a fimilar reprefen tation, and fent out a fleet of okifervation. It might be raid the French had no tranfports, and there fore were obliged to fend troops out in 'hips of the line. She might have procured them from Spain or Holland, or if not, it would have been better policy in this Government to have provided velrels for them, rather than have Coffered fuch a fleet to have gone to the Weft Indies. By fo doing, in dependent of other advantages, we thould have Paved the lives and conftituttons of our feameo from being expofed to the ravages of that cli mate. The& were the reafons which induced him to vote for a larger eßabliftunent than the one propofed. He trulled that Government would as with vigour, and that the country would thew the fame generous fpirit by which it had ever been diftinguithed. Lord Hawassavav raid, however proper it might be on fome future occafion to reply to the obfervations of the Hon. Gentleman, he certainly thould abitain, at the prefent moment, from com menting upon it ; and the more efpecially as the only objection to the motion of his Hon. Friend was that of its being too limited. He was ready to agree, that for all the meafures of Government, fince the period of the conclufion of the negocia tion for the Preliminaries of Peace, they are re fponfible to the Houfe and to the country. When the proper period arrived, his Majelly's Minifters would not withhold• any information which would enable the Houfe and the public to form a judg ment on every part of the tranfaaions relative to peace with the French Republic, or refufe to give every explanation as to every part of their cond ul, - from the commencement of the negociation to the prefent hour. The Houfe mull perceive, that at the prefent moment it would not be proper for him to enter into any difcuflon as to the points brought forward by the Hon. Gentleman, how.. ter important they might appear, or whatever effect they might have on the minds of thofe who conducted the negociation. The only ground of any juftifiable interference, in the prefent cafe, would be the certain knowledge that the negocia tion had been protraeted to an unufual length of time, and that the confequences were fuch that Parliament had a right to call on Government for an explanation. He was ready to Admit that fe rious inconvenience did arife from a negotiation being protraited to the period this had been car ried ; but if Gentlemen would confider the im portant interefts, and the variety of points to be difeuffed, and likewife refer to, what was the bell criterion, the time which the negociation of former treaties bad occupied, they imuld not feel them (elves ' unified in laying this had been protraaed to fuch an unufual extent as to warrant parlia mentary explanation. At the peace in 1783, whet} there were as few points as potllble to difcufs. the preliminary treaty was finned on the aoth of Ja. unary, and the definitive treaty on the 3d of Da cember. He did not fay this either to diminith or ittcreafe any fentiment of anxiety Gentlemen might feel, but only to thew that a period bad not elapfed of fuck unufual duration as to require the interfe rence of Parliament. Having Rated this, he would add, that his Idajefty's Government might well be fuppofed to be as anxious to bring this negociation to an iliac as every fubjea in the kingdom. No means had or would be omitted by his Majelly's Minifters that were calculated to bring it to a Inc. ce(sful termination as fpeedily as poffible : but the Houfe would not expert them at the prefent mo. meet to enter into the points of the Hon.-Gentle man's fpeech, particularly when they profeffed their perfect readinefs at a proper feafon to enter into the dikuffion of all the points conneaed with the fubjea. The Hon. Gentleman had made a perfonal allufion with refpea to his having been the inftrument of figning the treaty. He should ' only ftate,that whatever might be the event of the negociation for peace, he thould never regret any thing he had done to promote it. He would Rate to the Hon. Gentleman, to the Houfe, and to the public, that whatever might be the operation of the preliminary treaty, he mould ever be proud at having been party to a tranfaaion which he thought upon the whole creditable to the country—which afforded a chance to Great Britain and Europe ot the continuance of . peace. When Gentlemen talked of the confequences of peace, they would do well to con fi der likewife the confequences of war. It was fit to balance nicely between the con venieacies and inconveniencies of both, and furely the experiment of peace, if it was only an expe riment, was as wife as t he continuance of war.— The points brought forward by the Hon. Gentle man, he was defirous thould be fairly before•the Public; and when the time arrived that they could with propriety be dircuifed, neither himfel . nor his colleagues would 'brink from the dircurion. Mr. Coaewm.sis obferved, that it was moll pro bable the French Expedition to the Weft Indies might have in contemplation a fair and legitimate objea ; but fuppofing the intentions of the French Government thould be holtile, and the negotiations terminated unfavourably, this country bad nothing to apprehend. We had a force in the Weft Indies more that' fufficient for the protedion of our Iflands. We thould have the opportunity of fight ing and taking the French flips at Pea, intlea of counting them in their harbours, His Majefty's Madams, therefore, merited applaufe for having fn red them to fail. He few no ground of alarm, There was no reafon to queftion either the vigilance of opr Gevermnent, or the pacific difpofition of cltfPS Cupful, did not evert dedir4* ton . on the part of France anticipate the blefrings , of Peace ? What then was our duty ? Not to en tourage fufpicion, proclaim jealoufies, and found alarm throughout the country. There could not be the fmalleft doubt, that whatever might be the wink of the negotiations Great Britain would be prepared to meet the French at lea in any quarter of the world. He concluded by referring to former Negotiations, and (hewed from their duration that the public had no caufe for anxiety in confequence of the delay in the prefent. ' Mr.WlNDHAlli,after a few intmiluitory remarks, addrefred the Committee to the following effeit:— " Sir, I am as well convinced as the Noble Lord, or his Colleagues can be, of the refprinftbility by which they are bound to the Houk, and to the Country. Of the force and operation of that refponfibillty, there does not exit the flighteft doubt between us. and in the prefent crifis they aft more peculiarly under is than at any other time. But when my Hon. Friend comes forward and afks for that ini• formation which he conceives neceffiary to fatisifr ' the Public mind, and to remove thole doubts and apprehenfions for which he feels grounds, in ntir opinion, unfortunately too hong, I do not think I am going too far ia failing, that the promifed explanation of the Noble Lord will conic rather too late. It will, I fear, prove little confolation for the Country to learn the motives by which his Itfajeßy'i Minißers may have been aftuated, when it Sall at the fame time have felt the dangerous Jets refulting from there motives. My Hon. r Friend, in his queftions. does not exceed thole: conftitutional bounds to which he is allowed to extend his enquiries • and if the. Noble Lord con ' fi ders my Hon. Friend's propofitions as calculated to interfere with the Negotiations now carrying • on, I mull fay that be takes into his confideration that which is not aridly the cafe. In admieting the refponfibility of his Maiefty% Minißers, I alto • feel that a great refponfibility is weighing on my' Own mind, from the filence whiCh I have hel4 fo long, and I find much difficulty in et.clifing and vindicating myfelf in my own opinion, for having fo long remained neutral on a queflion in which the deareß interells of the Country are in. volved. In this conduit I have been influenced by two confiderations, and a great email has arifen in my mind, between the propriety of calling the attention of the Houle to the preheat (late of affairs, and the danger of perplexing Go. vernment, or embaraffing the Negotiations bit fuel: a meafure. Undecided between thefe two cables, I therefore acquielced in film:, and de termined to wait for the concurrence of tw o ma. terial objeas, that of knowing the flotation of the Country, and of not pledging Milliners to any line of conduit, by which their views might be fruflrated, and their plans rendered vain.— No man, Sir, I confidently fay, can look at the prefent Rate of the country, without teeing, altrwft at a Jingle glance, that it is an objet ofthe greateft care and attention to every one whofepulalic duties call for his exertions, and to all whole feelings are; interefted in its welfare. I indulged myfelf in the hope that his Majelty's Miniflers would have been the firft to have brought forward the topics on which my Hon. Friend has lunched ; and their not doing it. I mutt obferve, tends to confirm any diftruft which I may have entertained. If I take the language held out in the Debates which took place on the figning of the Preliminaries of Peace , and compare it with what has been fince efreiteil l I (ball find no fatisfaaory grounds for me to bandit my apprehenfions. It would indeed appear that little has been done fince that period. I feel in common with others, the great evils refulting from fufpenfe. The nation feels them but two ftrongly. Yet even thefe evils, great as they are, and this Rate of fufpenfe, big as it is with anxiety and dread, are not flifficient to jullify Gentlemen in calling for explanations from his Majelly's Mini- Rees. Reafons of a more powerful aature are not, however, wanting. Has notl.ing happened 'lnca the figning of the Preliminaries to fanition inqui ry? Every thing has happened which mull be at. counted fufficient to let afide the force and opera. don of the engagement entered into, and to inva• lidate the Preliminaries. Every thing has bap, pened which politically and truly fpeaking fhould deftroy the contrail. Every thing has fo happened, that none who voted for the Preliminaries in this Houfe, are bound to foipport them. The founda, tion on which ttey then gave their fuffrages is a/Runny deitroyed; and the credit which they gave to the enemy for good faith and fincerity, is no longer to be found. There are, Sir, three de feriptions of events which mutt be ferioufly con& dered, in order to feel the force a this. ohferva. don. Firit, events that have totally changed the bafis and nature of the Preliminaries: fecondiy, events that have changed the refpeitive condition and Rate of the two countries: and thirdly, thofe which in fait belong to both, and which flew the nature of the difpolition and temper of the oppo fite party. The Noble Lord, it will no doubt be reconciled by every one who hears me, dittintly Rated three confiderations in which the Prelimina ries might be taken. He Rated the time, the terms, and the tone or the temper in which they were concluded. As to the time and the terms,they are gone by; and as to the tone allow me to fay a few words---lagree that it is a matter of the higheit mo ntentifor as the fpirit at all times is better than the letter, particularly in political tranfaftions, the tem per of the enemy becomes a queftion of the greaten importance. But if he unexpetedly aflumes new power, and acquires new dominion beyond an,reafon and probability, it mull be evident that no confidence can be placed in his profeffions. But we are told, the more reliance we have upon his tone the fafer and the more fecure we Chan be ; and taking this as a rule of argument, we may go on to witnefs the aggrandizement and confoli dation of his Empire completely undifturbed, be caufe thefe are no proofs of the want of fincerity. When we fee innances every day of his redoubled vigour, of his over-itraining and unfitted ambi tion, (hail we be content with fubfcribing to this doarine, and giving our affeut to his moderation of temper ? lfhis - Mateny's Milliners will raife their beads from their.difpntches, and read the great Idifpatch of the enemy, plain and legible as it is in I nver/ part of (fie globe, they will ice undoubte4 t .1