Star. — London, England, 1828-05-21 00:00:00

a - i" (S w 111:7"P"' matiklniuse, agreeing at the same time tolend a sum of 50,0004 He showed the draft of the agreement to his lawyer, who exclaimed—" Are vou mad? By lending this money coincidental with your obtaining for your son a possible edvantegts Yila-ctrWiljt, usury. ... (Ttke Hoax Gestleman here sited theopinitan-of tqldßllenboiongh. that a billow! taintedliy usury could not be recovered.) He should, 0/kit theliave at theffonse,shoe how that principle toperated. In a long account current the agents overcharged a sum of 151. for commission—or. interest upon interest.. That was held to be usury. What was the consequence? That ;hey were liable to penalties to three times the amount of the 151.? No; but the amount of the account current being 92,0001. the taint or overcharge of the 151. affected the whole, and es `A rendered the offenders its to penalties to the amount of 96,0001. Could any law, therefore, be justified which prompted men to practices such a s these suggested to avoid the payment of their engagements? Couldnsen be found to give effect M such laws? What happened in the case of " Kensington v. Stein ?" The Jury found for the defendant. " What 1" exclaimed, l Lord Ellenborough, " Not Guilty? Why this is rank usury." An Hon. Friend of his (Mr. Thompson) who )1.4d been one of the Jurors, replied—" I know not what you call usury, but every merchant in London is doing that with which the defendant is charged." . So that, in fact, men would rather commit the lesser immorality— perjurythan the greater immorality of inflicting the penalties of the law.? He begged leave to apologise for having taken up so much of the time of the House, but believing that great benefit would result from an altera tion of thetas, and particularly to the landed interests, he should propose a nsoclified measure, in which he hoped he should have the support of those who bad been in the habit of suppnrting the principle of re peal—that he should not be opposed by those who bad no interest in the question; and, above all, that he should receive• the suppcit of his Majesty's Go verntheet. The plan he proposed was to repeal that part of the existing law which tendered void any engagement in which a larger payment than an interest of five per cent. was paid or contemplated, and to alter the perielties, so as that the party advancing the money could - not recover more than the.amount with five per cent.'interest. The repeal of the Usury Laws would place - the trensections of merchants and bankers on a footing - of greater security; it would prevent the us. princitAid -lender of money from taking advantage ot the tiectskities of borrowers, by exacting extravagant. annuities; ittasmuch as it would enable the individual oppres;ed. its appeal to the Courts of Law, where the coatettet might be voided. The youthful pr odigal, too.' wooldbe deprived of the Means of ruining his fortune ' by contracting to pay illegal and heavy interest for a series of years. The repeal would throw open the mo ney Market to fait competition, and each man would be able to supply his .necessities* at a reasonable me ; nor was the proposition without precedent. In. Cha ncery peakeedings on usurious contracts, it was usual to offer the capital 'and legal interest to the lender, but nothing awe: In most parts of Holland, France, and Rosie, this principle was acted on. In France a simi lar lair eirtually prevailed; though these *as a certain rate 6f lige& interest, bills'were allowed to be discounted at a varying interest. In Russia, where the legal stand ard-of interest on money transactions was six per cent. the Goiernekent keel( bad a Bank, in which bills were disclatanted at a varying rate above the legal - interest. He hoped a similar law would be established in this consul. The only 'objection to his argunsent be ex. petted to be, that this was not it proper time. Now, in his 'opinion; this time Was the most proper when the rate of intereU in the money.market was so low as two and a half per cent.; so that though the repeal of the lasi' might cause a fluctuatioo, yet at the present time there ivairoom enough for the rate to vary. and the ultinvitte - result would rather depress than rais e the ratel of interest. If his proposition was a good one, uo time should be lost in adopting it—if bad, it ought to be as quickly refuted. With the hope that it would be thought worthy of acceptance. he should move “ for leave to bird% id i Hai to amend the Usury Lewes sisslisssia baying nose secanded, Ti COANCELLOB , of the EitHEQUER sajd, thrOilivitig‘utiott a foe:Met occasion intimated to the HOnairatile Gentleman; that. whatever might be his opri6s on the esury'Liws, he should not oppose the bripging in of this Bill, it would !pee been quite no neckssary for him now to 'offer any observation, had be notleird that it was the intention of some Honourable Gentientai to . enter fully into the discussion, as if their proposal was for a total repeal of the Usury Laws. He trusted those Honourable Gentlemen would postpone the dienssion until they had an opportunity of know. ins What was the precise nature and bearing of the amendments to be proposed. No one who had paid the last attention to the clear and very able speech of the ospourable Gentleman could avoid coming to the coseltision that, in particular cases, great inconvenience teed arisen from the operation of the law as it now stood. Weight instance those cases in which heavy penalties Vein innocently incurred, without the slightest inten tion on the part of those who incurred them to evade the law. It war surely worth the while of the House to ascertain whether such amendments haig -Doe be introdesed.as would in future presremM - ch • ' l acia to individuals. These were the consideratio n s whitl • induced him not to oppose the motion for beinging in this Bill.. He reserved to himself, hosorekthe tight of discussing, at a future period, the Amendments of the Mons:nimble Gentleman, of considering hoer far they were calculated to effect the end pro without leading to any Of those ill, eousequenc i el le ilich were apprehended from a total ryet. He should here have closed the few observitiorts ha intended to make, were it pot that the Hen. Member , in t h e tours! :sf his sowers had thrown oat something like a censure upon Government, for not having before instituted some measure on the aobject. He did got think that ow cen sure could justly apply to him. The Hee. Gerstieman would do him the justice to admit, that when first he mentioned his intention of bringing the subject under the consideration of the House, 'he exprened himself ready to give it all the attention in his power. He told him, at the same time, that with with a variety of busi ness as necessarily devolved upon him, and such a. number of different engagements connected with the public service, it was impossible be could direct his mind so fully to this question as would enable him to origtnate any measure on it. He also told him that' there were peculiar circumstances which rendered it inexpedient to agitate it at present; but if it was post poned to next Ses.ion, he should then be prepared to wore a decided opinion on it. He felt no particular ottachmentio the present system of Usury Laws; but le appeared to him that, having been so long. in exis tence, and having been interwoven as it were with the habits of the people, so many interests also being in volved. the . repeal of those laws was a matter which required serious consideration. It appeared to him,. . therefore, the most eligible course to watt, and hear recut was the nature of the proposed amendments, that , lit might judge what was likely to be the effect of such, a change. He consented, therefore, to the introduc tion of the Bill; and it would be mbst satisfactory to him if thole GgetiOIDITI Who klt 'deeply interested in the question would discuss tuber the.propoied amend ments than the general piinciple. • Sir R. HERON said, he did not know thiexact rm. cure of t he measure proposed. lie should. have no oh .iection to apply a remedy for the' large penalties noir inflicted under these laws. He, should watch the pro Kress of the measure. To a total repeal of these laws be was directly opposed. It was quite visionary to think of repealing, as had been once proposed, theUsuryLaws, in such a way as not to affect the Landed Interest. It appeared to him that the evidence taken before the Committee of 1818, had a tendency directly contrary to that stated by the Honourable Gentleman. It seemed to him to be more opposed than favourable to a total repeal. The evils of the distressed persons alluded to, would, in his opinion, have been greater if the trade in money was free, because friends were induced to come ' forward and assist their commercial acquaintance with an advance of money, which they would not have done if the trade in money was free, as they would then, very naturally, conclude that other resources were open to them. He felt convinced it was owing to a repeal of the Usury Laws that Holland lost her trade, because men were thus induced to withdraw their capital from commerce for the purpose of lending it out at large in terest. He feared the same would be the result here. Mr. MARTIN spoke in favour of the measure. The Usury Laws had, he was convinced, been productive of great mischief ; were it not for theM many, of cite evils which were felt at the late crisis might have been pre ',Optic,. The landed intetest could not be injured by a change of system. 'He saw no reason why the trade in money should not be as free as in any other article. Mr. CRIPPS said the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Thomson) was entitled to every praise for his industry and ability. He should not oppose the, motion, as it did not go to a total repeal. He was most desirous that some remedy • should be applied to prevent such evili as those stated by the Hon. Gentleman. .Two or three similar ca ses came tinder his observatiOn, which' ma de him a convert' to some chaoge.— (Hear).* He 'feared • that by one of ' the provisions proposed, the dishonest man might avoid r tbe payment of any interest at . all.- With respect to the . - cases of enormous interest- mentioned by the Honourable Gentleman, there might be instances of the kind, but then the interest was paid . only fir a short period to avoid ruin. Under'such Circumstances, money. Might be worth, for short periods,; 1501. or even 1801. per - cent. l With respect to prodigals, hirdid not think it would .be attended with such advantages . to theM:as thifiturour able Member 'seemed to etpect. • tie ensued, however, the measure would. prove beneficial W ina4;-:stiitliout .being injurious to any. - • . Sir J.SEBRIGHT spoke in-favour-of the Bill: He thought the landed 'proprietor 'would be benyfitted by it as well as etherclasspi. Why should "money be placed) on a different footing to other articles ? The price oft I money, like every thing else, should be. allowed to find) its level. While he bad oseat.in ;hist !loose he should• give his support to apT .proposititin ..thicfi . srent to . * total repeal of the Usury . Lavis. . The ATTORNEY GENERAL, in reference tot former Bills on this . subject, said that they proposed a total repeal, went to remove all 'restrictions on the rate of intetestpil money. lent on lands, bonds, bills of us.. change . , or debts. That . Measure complete repeal was founded - (xi thetheisiy "thin :the -wder of money, is of other matters of trade, would). iOon . find its natural level. On this fanciful, theory;t/iiidvocates of the re; peal held that there ought to he no :Particular standard of interest. Now that principle be considered most 'mischievous, and for' that - reason he had oppbsed the motions for a total repeal. The present motion did not, however, contemplile ,a total - iepeal of the system, bit a partial alteration;. for the Hon. Mover proposed td retain ilegal standard of 'interest. Ever open to new *information, and Willing to receive the benefit of' se cond thoughts, he woOld all o w that he was inclined to give much attentit4 *the ilion.Member's proposition.--; There were two :e r*ye entorcing the rule laid dolls by the Uauiy Jc.itiok, Teri_ the; prevention et illegal in terest; first, by 'eiactieg • the penalty ; secondlY, by ,getting the contract can Celled in a Court of Low, whereby the usurious lender lost both his principal and his interest. There . were Carious mercantile chargei, and the questicin was, whether they were or were dot to be sanctjoned? If the case were a fair one, he Would gladly see the laws varied to meet that' case. It Wes one thing to repeal a fixed legal standard, and another to meidiFY the Usury Laws, so Is. to pretense that stand: , and from operating indiscriminately, and by conse quence unjustly. He saw no reason for opposing such a Plats as might, have the litter object in view, and if the Hon. Geodesian could contrive to keep the printi 7 pie of the Usury Laws untouched; while be at the same' time prevented those laws from pressing inconveniently upon coy class of the community, he would be content. Bat as-he could not anticipate the plan of the. Hon. Gentleman, it was useless for him to take up the time of the Noise. One thing. • however, he wished to d* dare, and it was, that as far as the Hon. Gentlemah's plan might go to take away the Axed legal standard, so far did he feel at present determined to oppose it, and he &bosh& not vary his Minion, unless the HOnoulable Gentleman was able, when the subject should be brought forward for full discussion, to throw some new and strong light upon it. Farther be would•say, that he believed great practical difficulties would be found in preserving the legal principle that more than a cer tain rate of interest should not be demanded, without resorting to means of correction, penalty, and punish meet. It would be difficult in the extreme to enforce the law, and yet not have it fall too heavily on the of fender. In conclusion, he would again say, that if the Bill which the Hon. Gentleman proposed to intro duce, had for its object to take away the legal standard of interest, he would feel himself bound to oppose it. Mr. W. SMITH said, if the Bill went no fus ther than what. the Hon. and Learned Gentleman was willing to allow, it would be as well not to bring it in at all. His Hon. Friend (Sir IL. Heren) ; said. that in the late period of difficulty fkieods came forward to relieve the com mercial distresses of their acquaintances, knowing the exorbitant injerest they must otherwise pay; but did his Eon. Friend'consider the loss w their friends? Sir It.. HERON explained. What he said was, that they would not have come forward if other sources of relief were open, which would be the case if the Usury Laws did not exist. The use was still the same. Those friends must have sustained inconvenience in some way or other. For his part, be did not see what inconvenience could arise from a iota:epee of these laws. Why should a maximum be fixed in the article of money more than any other ? . Mr. ROBINSON said be should not oppose the prin ciple of the Bill, but would prefer a total repeal. He trusted the Hon. Member would not find that he rather increased than, lessened the evil. From twenty years experience, he felt convinced of the impolity of these laws. Thaopesation was unifosatlY injurious.' It .was perfectly anomalous in commercial countries that two parties should be precluded from entering into any' pecuniary atrangentents convenient to both, withouvin• earring the most there penalties. It did not appear to him that the totaLeepeal of theselasps could at all injure the agricultural interest. • He fee* he shoold not be able to support that part of the meitsurein which it was proposed that no more than.the legal interest should be r'eeoverable, whatever might be the terms of the con he feared, would open a door to gr eat frauds. I CRAF f said, he should give the Bill a fair tr an cit cl i‘.r d . TiCshpisllassionate consideration. The principle 'was vet y different to that of former measures which he op posed. He should even oppose the repeal of the Usury Laws as far as they affected money borrowed on mort gage.' It'this part of the law could be preserved, he should not di-posed to'oppose some modifications. Mr. A. BARING said he was disposed to concur in the kinciple of the alterations proposed. He had sup ported former Bills, in which the total repeal of these laws was proposed. He understood the position to bet, that no.higher rate of interest than five per cent. should be recoverable in a Court of Law, but that all penalties for other rates should be set aside, and that he thought a considerable improvement in the present state of so ciety. Executors and others would be benefited by not making the rate of interest higher; but at the same time, by removing the penalties, he was sure that mort gage, as well as mercantile transactions, would be bene aced by the proposed alteration. , Mr. SUGDEN said, he was friendly to a modifica tion of tite Usury -Laws, which he always considered as little else than a trap for the unwary. But at the same time he thought great difficulties would 'attend this measure, for either the law must be evaded, or it must be followed up, and if a larger rate of interest was taken, it would in fact be worse than the existing law. He wished the question. to be left to the consideration of the' Government, and then in the, course of next Session some well digested measure,could be biought in. As far as he himself was concerned, le would cheerfully give his best attention to the subject. . , Mr. BRIGHT could not consent to the unqualified repeal of the Usury Laws.--to some modifications, how ever, he would have no objection. Mr. MAXWELL said, he would take a future op.;' portunitj of discussing the merits of the Bill; -he now only expressed a hope that the Bill should be generally circulated, and that ample time should be given for its ; consideration. Lord ALTHORP thought the proposed measure 'would lead to considerable advantage, and was per 'lisps rather better in many cases' than the total repeal of itbe Usuiy Laws. Leave was then given to bring In the ?ill. • . • • PENSIONS—CIVIL LIST. • Mr. HUME, in moving for returns of Pensions now payable on the,Civil List be laid before the. House, said, he regretted to understand that, his motion would be. apposed. .Under such cirenanstancesehe must go at 'greater length - into the subject than he had originally intended. By Mr. Burke's 'Act of 1782, the pensions could not exceed .95,0001. a year, and . after tife . year 1789 that no increase should take place without a pre ;vious diminution. In 1820, missies of the English, Irish, -and Scotch Petiiions.Lifits_ketelaid before the House ; in . the English list 9 1 2,b(itc . ippeared:.. According to the terms of Mr. Btirke's Act, it • was - properly al lowed to his. Majesty to reward the Aserit of deserving public. servants—the Lijiplicatign of the fond - being always thrown upon the asionSitlitif of Miniiters.— 'Such Were - Orsibiona of „Mr.lhirke,' Mr. Fox;' Sir 'FletCher Nbrtcfi, siticilber emioent Teen of that time.— It was not; r howeiii; denied; that this.,Hotrsehad also a contrOurovii. sielli f •an expenditure - -end he should be surprised to deny silt a right irObld be , now istide; His Object in calling forthese Returnalwasi to kiceitaiii if the toad was so well regulated -as to eh 'able theedintrY to Make provision for a sore; stab es had been *greed to the other evening. He • had looked. over the . list of pensions,' and lie found 'the daughters of .Dates, - the 'Wine of Earls, and &iris themselves, tee .eeiying-pensierris.as matter Of grace and feeder...L.' Hells° . found* the male of William Huikissont Esq.- . lox 1,0001. a year, -liable- to be stopped under certain •Circeiristsilleetri :aid , he mentioned his name, because ch. Osaka could only be granted to hies for EIDONNIC ' public Services.. The - Irish Pension List was very eaten-• sive, - although• by the Ist Geo. Z. it was to be reduced, f*T 80,0001. Co 500001. before anymew pension should. berplaced urns it; it was now nearly. 79,0001. and be milted why was Mr. Canning's pension to be placed uiion this fund, it not hiving- been reduced according to,the terms of the Act.of Parliament ? He called for the seturro to ascertain what the real amount of the pensions on the different lists now amounted to ; with. the. further new of seeing if the , . proposed pensio to*Mr. Canning could be properly charged upon it. He did not wish to limit the; liberality of the Sove reign, but he 'wished to check the usual prolusion of this House: • lie did not grudge the, pension to the family of Mr. Canning; but she was anxious that. it' should come •from the proper source.. Those who received pensions- should not be Ashamed ,to have their names known,; mid on the:lrish List he found 01. names of . men,. :lumen, and children, who had sot •the slightest claim upon the country for public services, By the 50th Geo.. 111. the Scorch Pension Lase was to be very limited.; but in place of its beiiig , stp o 'he found that connections of Gentlemen sitting in. this House had considerable pensions both on the Scotch. and • English Civil Lists. The Scotch List was to be reduced to twenty;Ave thousand pounds before any new. pension should be granted upon it, and be now found the amount extended to thirty-six thousand peuncls.—. The publication of such things would be the best check to abuse; • for he was quite sure that if three millions were allowed for pensions in place of three, hundred thoesand pound's a-year, it would be all anticipated. This,' however, was the proper tune to review what we had done, and commence a change for the better. In the last five leers be found that pensions had been con ferred on some unworthy persons—and if be . had gone further than he intended, it was merely to lay a ground work for his motion. Above two hundred thousand 'pounds was already allowed to his Majesty fOr con ferring pensions—and if no vacancy now occurred for providing for Mr. Canning's family, it might happen in a year or so, and, at all events, the pension should nut be thrown on the Consolidated Fund. By the GOO. IV. above one million annually was allowed to his Me jesty for his Household and Civil List; but he (Mr. Hume) knew no reason why the salaries of the - Lard Chancellor, the Judges, and others, should notle regu larly laid before the House, apart from the actual ex penses of the Royal Household. It should' not be for'• gotten also, that the Civil List was fired in st time of great pressure, and oo such a scale as could not be ' continued in the present situation of the country. The pensions of Ambassadors was now more thari 60,0001. a year, sod altogether 6,088,0001. of public money was paid in pensions (including half pay) in the course of last year. And this amount was continued, although the House bad the assurance of his Majesty that every. practicable saving would be effected. It must be clear that while such expenses were continued, the fitaieli.if the country could not be in a flourishing condition.— He again repeated, he would not have entered into suck &toil if he had not understood that his reasnnable re. quest would be objected to. The Honourable Member corajuded by mowing for Returns of all pens ion s o n the English, Irish, and Scotch Pension Lists, up toJanusty The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said. it would not be necessary for • bins (o - failoTwitsii - IfOrs - , - • Member through his details for Half-pay, and Penstocks,' and Grants, made for military-and civil •services„which redounded so much to the honour of the country. Nei ' they would he enter upon tre basis upon which the Ora List was granted at the commencement of the present reign, the great object of that arrangement being to prevent the subject from coming unnecessarily before, the public. Having said so much as to the ornamental, • or rather incidental part of the Honourable Member's speech, he would now apply himself strictly to the mo tion before the House. The Honourable Member ha • before made a similar motion , which was re jected by Mr. Canning. In fact, in whatever fund the pension toe Mr. Canning should fall, it would equally fall to a cer tain extent on the ptiblic. In one fund a restraint was imposed as to the sum to be charged ; but the only effect of Mr. Canning's pension would be, for the present, to displace some other civil servant from the amount pro. posed for his family. It would not be right to inquire' into the arrangementi of the Civil List. He begged to. be heard, unless the Crown called for an increase to the Civil List, or unless pensions were improperly given • away, Parliament could not, interfere. If such cases had occurred, if they had been stated to-night.... Mr. HUME—No, I said the reverse. . • The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was . ture , that the Honourable Member had said some uteri. • .., torious persons had pensions on those lists. and no cot. 'minion whatever had been even stated, much less established. The authurity of Mr. Buvlce• was quoted by Ole Honourable Member; but he only contended that any Oublicatidn should take place when corruption was pruned to have been really prActised. . The , English Civil List was limited ; that limit was not passed, and such accounts he would not give; but with iespett to the Aetnrns as. to the Irish and Scotch Lists,' he had not :the least objection that they thoUld, be laid be fore} the House. Such a .coprse_. he thought, at the. same time, the most dignified towards -the Crown, and. the most,con•enient towards'the HeuseL-(Hear, bear), Lord ALTHORP.said,lie.had in vain waited to hear' the reasons which could. be. adduced for : resistance to this motion. It-was said that no abuse); had been stated; but how was it possible for the -House to know if .the list was not produced? lf . the teOppriaijonhad taken place candidly and fairly; "thy ,dfiject to its production? If it weye•refsssed, this.oese and the country would no doubt trace such.refosal to-the. only just and assignable cattsei-namely, that while Mi n i sters talked of .their respousihilityiitliterally. Encrust not h ing. ! Mr. Secretary HUSKISSON said, it was quire, true :. that Parliattiedt hatlihniTedtheliaglish Pension Lista* •, 92,0001, and at the . o.iit s tifiliiftied the ' ritesdf Ptiiisibe beyond whi c h tintiti4o4tri he, preillerly.'grini ed tiOiii . it. . The Hon. Metnber tlitrji usate) had:gate4•that4e; only found one ortwo‘meritorious_ persons intbe Fraislist: . Pension List..—("No, no," trim W.' Heme). Pest ntt the Honourable MeitibsiiSAid so, and 'na,torditini ('jr.', Huskisson) as one of them. .But Whether that - were in •' or not, he (Mr. Huskisson) never would consent that acts of favour and munificence lieitci!illf t . ti WOrthy - iiidivi:, duals by. the Crown, should isnriecessargibe.M3di . , Ati.k . I. subject-Of nightly discussion . its that Astute. • li.tlle. ..Civil List of the Crows were ler be called for and imbed to at any other . paper of accaunti; ankh' Of 'the tie 'of die House Viciiild be &W OW . duritiA .every 'So. ion, discussing tie patu s re Of,.ilitiA . 4d!lee .seliiChyAs. 'given .w she .:.Crowns trpeo •Ahe-respore sdiiiity .Of his • Majestyl i s , q&ernuient - This comae - of- proceediap - Woulskb i . iiil!,,;oliphy of Pailippenti atidlb ttp diVest the' • Crown, of fieatom'ing,.i,44l44 #74,140biN 77 , •( Heir)::: Yeii•heiwould repeat ebatJavour, wbcl le.sitould ever 'be in the power of the•Crosus to bestfter.r.: In the dbli settee of tlie 'Act' 61 Parliament 'of- 1782,40* in 'The full spirit of the Civil 4st i he diiitendedtlibethi'ffOlite i iias ntloalie4.npog tg. deal Wiettt.h.rfetailt:Of'its'applica tion-4.tbe specified amopot.osh 1)4,7 g; exceide4llo; any oorauet • *replication of ititatring .been.attempted.to be stated. By the Vtliseetioh-or Mt: Burke's Act' if the suds fixed, were exceeded , then ' nil-doubt • Parl iament ' could inter tem ; litti titilir - igeTtitifisivini litirn giiiiteit.' it was deaf to demonstration • that no detiill could be properly celled for. The Honourable Member (Mr. Him) bast said,..atat. siti.ce 'the per 181.6. there Isik beet a groat depre,sion . in.prices,. aid a depreciatiba.(4. the value of money, yet if his principle of controul and. examination Wile to be pushed to its extent, they must inquire what Pr.ife's tiere paid - for proiisiOns—what frit' oats—and thewhole:establishment of thiSterlard - of the Household, and the Lord Chamberlain's Office should be, submitted to the inspectionof,Parliatnent.— Sich• he was -sure could never bate. been- the object of Mr. Burke's *Act—neither could ' it be a subject for the jealous i nterference of a British Huse of Corn- ' nions. It should:he rememhered i also, *that the Cryil List was granted:for the life of, the Sovereign ;.6ut 1:e believed that a motion similar to the,present had been on' ifiagprei • hecisib4, brought ihrward by the Hon. /n enalser,(l4.4 „flume); indMeifiejiCied frf the noose: I theerow• same for, relief' to Parliament, theri the i um Member might introduce such topics as be had indulged in that evening, but not 'otherwise, except is deed in a case where the demise of the Crown might be fairly contemplated, when a near regalkion„ would pro bably become necessary. He bad much to regret that the civil expenses had been redroved from the Civil Lists and that indeed must be a most unfortunate stateof things, wben.the Crown .was to be sold that ic 3 1 " oothing to do htewith the mere . expenditure...of the household. • It was said that the Ambassadors of the King should not be p a id by him, but by P ar liament. Mr. HUMt:—.And, why not? . Mr. HUSKISSON.-.Why, besaose we 'ha ppily EV under a Monarcry,.andlte would never consent that the Ambassador at the)Citi at Foreign Courts sh ould be the Ambassador o f' this Hotise(tlear, hear.) .14e ,. would say the same thing of the Judge, , an d sei elarry of the •administration of justice, which added to the dignity and honour of the Sovereign, and never should be separated entirely from a proper connexion with If.the Hon. Member grounded his motion upon the Act •cif 1782, he should be bound by it, and it was clear that it was igaipst him in point of practice ever since that period. Thelrish and Scotch Lists exceeded the limits of Mr. Burke's Act. Parliament had. therefore, a right tb inquire into the subject, and no objection would be made to that part of the Hon. Member's motion. The Englislk Lisr.showed no such excess, and if they wet! now to call on the Crown for an account of the expen ditute of the Civil List, it would be lit erall y to rake away all that wholesome restraint which th e col:tra i l practice had so long imposed upon the Adviser s of t he Crown. Every necessary check elisted at present; ion abuses . were proved to exist, and under su ch cucu - -.s. he was-prepared to resist a pan ut the Han [ember's motion. - After some dreoltory observation from Dr. Loam?or" gte 71.•