Star. — London, England, 1805-02-05 00:00:00

remarkable documents in their poffedon. as to ten-' der any notice neceffary. It would be highly incon venient for him to come to the Houfe to-morrow to make the motions he had now ready ; if he souk however, he fhould furely do fo ; but he toped this would be unneceffary. Lord MULGRAVE affured the Noble Lord, he gave him more credit than he deferved, in fuppoting that h e was fo well aware of the contents of all the Papers in his poleflion, as to give a determined an fwer on the moment. He had originally laid on the table all he deemed neceffary to enable the Houfe to form a judgment on the fubjeet. If, however, the Noble Lord would favour him with a lift of the Pa pers he willed produced, he affutecl him, if in his hand:, r.r at all to be procured, and fnch as ought to he produced, they fbould be fairly and candidly laid before the Houle. To this Lord GRENVILLE affented, and pro ceeded to particularize the different papers he want ed. A report of the communications between Lord trr-wby and Don D'Anduaga, as to the arma ments at Ferrol, he particularly looked on as being effentiany necelfary to elucidate the quellion as to the feizore of the Spauifit Mips. The inkormation and explanations given an that fubjett, were unqueßion ably of the higheß importance, and he was convinc ed the known accuracy of his Noble Friend (Lord Harrowby) could not have fo Lir forfaken him as to indnce him to leave a fubjeft of this important na ture without any memorandum what:ver to enable the Houfe to judge of it, and with it of the propriety of his own conduct. There was another thing he witted particularly explained. He ohferved that Mr. Frere, in February, 1804, made the afilirance that the condemnation of BritilAips in Spanith portc, fbould be difcpntinued, a fundamental article in his continuing longer at Madrid, and declared if that were not agreed to, the period of his million mull ceafe. Now, he had fearched in vain through the whole of the correfpondence for any authority to Mr. Frere 10 hold filch language, and he wilhed it to be produced. He concluded by moving feven dif ferent Addreffes to his Majefly for additional paper', and hope-I the Noble Secretary of State would inform him in the entitle of to-morrow morning how far it was the intention of Miniflers to comply with sass mo tions. I'hat one which regarded the ezplanations from Don D'Anduaga to Lord Harrowby, he confi ;tiered of fo much importance, that if withheld, how ever inconvenient to.himfelf, he mull come down and take the fenfe of the Houfe on it. Lord MUI.GRAVE promiftd that the Noble Itord Ilsoulel be informed at as early an hour to morrow as polfible, how far it would be in his power to comply with the Noble Lord's demands.—Ad journed. HOUSE OF COMMONS, SATURDAY, FEB. S. On the motion of Mr. HOBHOUSE, the Malt Duty and Pen- Bons, &c. Duties Bills, were read a third time, and ordered to the Lord•. -• Mr. HUSKISSON brought in the Affeffed Tax Conuniffioners lademnity Bill. which was read a firft time, and ordered to be read a fecond time on Monday next. The Houfc went into a Committee on the Qualification Indem nity Bill, of which the Report was ordered to be received on Mayday next. Mr. DICKENSONJun brought up the Report of the Commit tee of Ways and Means of yellerday. Ihe refolution for the if fue of three millions of Exchequer Bills was agreed to, and a Bill ordered, to be brought In accordingly. • The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER prefented the additional Spann& Papers moved for on a former day by Mr.Orey printed copies of which he laid were ready to be diftributed to the Members at the door. The SECRETARY at WAR prefented the Accounts relative to the new battalions railing in Scotland and Ireland, moved for on a former day by Mr. Windham. Two of thole accounts the Right Hon. Gentleman Rated, were Rill wanting, basing not yet arrived from Ireland, but on Monday he hoped to be able to lay them be fore the Houle. TbeSECRETARYat WAR prefented an Eftiraate of the Sums wanted for the Barrack Department for the year tBos,whkh were ordered to be printed.—Adjourned. MONDAY, FEBRUARY 4. The SPEAKER, at hall - pail three o'clock, took the Chair. A new Writ wa• ordered to be iffued for the eledtlon of a Mena. bet for Rutlandiltire, in the room of G. N. Noel, Efq. Sir EVAN NEPEAN prefented an Account of the Debt of the Navy, for at:ie.—Ordered to lie on the table. Read a fecond time, the London Coal Fadtor's Indemnity Bill, and referred to a SedeEt Committee for to-morrow. Mr. ROSE brought up the Bill for making better provifion for the Q u arantine Service, which was read a firft time. Mr. Role, on his moving that the Bill be read a feeond time, felt it neceffary to explain to the Houle the objets of the The Mt of the 39th and eoth of the King, invefted his MakftY and Council with certain powers, which it was the purpofe of this Bill to enlarge and extend. His Mikity, by that Bill, was en abled by his Proclamation to fubjea to quarantine all yens corn ing from countries infeetcd with the plague. The prefent Bill ex tended the like power with raped to Chips coming from any coun tries infeeted with any other epidemical difrafes which might be dangerous to the health of this country. It alto went to empower Isis Majefty to force perfons who may have landed in this country from on board of Each yeah claodellinely, to return on board forthwith on pain of death. It alfo had a chafe to indemnify the Members of the l'rivy Couqcd for obliging certain perfons w►o bad landed from the wreck of a seffel from Gibraltar, and obliged to perform quarantine, to return on board of the veal fo wrecked, and take with them the perfons refident in a public hoofe where they had taken refuge.after their landing, in confequenee of which force of thole perfoni were drowned. He admitted the cafe was certainly a hard one; but it was but a partial evil compared with the much more exteohve and alarming one which the order was calculated to prevent —He concluded by moving, " that the Bill i be read a fecund time on Friday nsxt."—Ordered. The SECRETARY at WAR prefented foam Official Papers, purfuant to order—Ordered to be printed. Mr. ALEXANDER brought up the report on the qualification Indemnity Bill.--Ordered to be engroffed, and read the third time to morrow. Mr. KINNAIRD gave notice, that in addition to the papers for which he intimated his intention, upon a former day, to move re freeing the fquadrno in the Red Sea under Sir Home Popham. that be Mould to-morrow move alto for an account of the expellees of repairing bit hlajefty's ihip Romney, in the year tgod: alto fir an account of the elpcoCeS of repairing the Ships under Sir Mime Popham in the Red Sea; and alto copies or aurae., of cc:- :ain letten received from Marquis W.-Haney. PRINCE or WALLS . :: ISLAND, Mr. JOHNSTONE, preparatory to the difeuffion which he Sad on a former day intimated his intention to bring forward, felt it necelfary now to move for tome pape►s refpeding the Settlement of the Prince of Wales's Wand. It was needful alto, in order to apprife the Houle of the importance of that fubjedt, and the ftrong ohjedtioas which milted againft the Settlement, with the India Proprietors, to ft ate, that upon the left difeuMon of the Refolu• ticn for adopting the Eitablifhment, at a General Meeting of the Proprietors of the India Houle, out of 730 prefent, 325 voted or/gat it, leaving a bare majority of 30. He concludee: by moving, "that there he laid beftire the Houfe the copy of a letter from Lord Caakreagh, dated the 29th of September, to the Chairman of the Court of Proprietors, together with the ineltifures therein :”—Alfo, " an eftimate of the ex:peaces of building a feventy-four gun Ibip in the harbour of Bombay :—Alfo, • the copy of a letter from Sir Andrew Snapc Hammond, of the 30th of Oetober, 2804, to the Court of Diredtur%;"—Alfo„ "an account of the proceedings of Commiffioners for the Affain of India, and their correfpon. dente with the Court of Direiftors refpcdting the fettlement of !•:inee of Wales's Iftand fo fax as the fame can be difclofed, with sf to the public fcrr:cc."—Ordered accordingly. L • 0 Mr. ALINAWDEII brought up the BM for ralfmg three mil lions by Loan on Incfsequer Bilb.—Ordered for the fad read. ins to-morrow. sweat. Ito: WIRY- Mr. CREEVEY moved, that an humble addrefs be prefented to his Majeay, praying that there might be laid before the Houle, a copy of the commiffion for appointing Sir Charles Middleton, and others, a Committee, armed with difcretionary powers for cer tain purpofes, refpeding the enquiry into naval abufes. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER rote to corred an error in the fuppofition im plied by the motion of the Honourable Member ; namely, that Sir Charles Middleton and thofe named with him in the comtniffiln, were invefted with ex tenfive difcretionary powers. Now the fad was, no difcretionary powers were conveyed by the commit Pion—the Committee being merely appointed to di geQ, to the beg of their experience and judgment, fuch a fyltem as would facilitate the enquiries of the ; Board of Admiralty. With refped to the objea of the Hon. Member's motion, in obtaining a copy of the Convention itfelf, he had no objeaion. His motive in riling was to prevent its being undeatood for a moment that the Commiffion went to inveft the Com miffioners with any extenfive difcretionary powers. Mr. CREavey's motion was agreed to. Mr. CREEVEY next gave notice of his intention to move, to-morrow, for an Account of what Reps had been taken by the Commiflioners of the Trea fury towards obtaining payment of the arrears due to Government by John Fordyce, Efq. who it ap- peared, was a debtor to the Public to the amount of 80,0001. Mr. PITT anfwered, that the name of Mr. For dyce was one of thofe inferted in the CommilEon jolt mentioned, becaufe it was thought there was no Gentleman more competent to execute the duties therein enjoined. If the Hon. Member had any mo tion to make refpeding that Gentleman, he would better make it now. Mr. CURVET, however, declined the motion at prefent. SPANISH PAPERS. . Mr. GREY rofe to a& when the other papers, for which he had moved, might be expthed to be laid on the table ? The 'CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, in reply, mentioned chat he was in immediate ex peraation of their arrival. They were accordingly delivered out to the Members before the Houfe ad journed. Mr. GREY, after all the information which the papers already moved for contained, (till exprefred hirnfelf of opinion that there were feveral important deficiencies to be fupplied, and points of the higheft confequence to be explained. The deficiencies at prefect ceiling were, of papers from the office of the Secretary for the Foreign Department, and the Board of Admiralty. Of the latter he fhould, at prefent, fay nothing, becaufe all the papers he had moved for were not yet produced, and till they were on the table he could not afcertain to what extent the deficiency of evidence crafted. As to the defici encies from the Secretary of State's Office, he had to offer a few obfervations. What, in the firft place, he vilified to afcertain was, whether, previous to the ad of June, down to the a4th of November, there exilled any papers illuftrative of the Reps taken by our Minifters to obtain any fatisfadory explanation of the terms of the treaty of St. Ildefonfu. He was all') anxious to know whether, during the long inter val betwixt the 21ft of January and the sgth of No vember, no inftruiaions whatever were given by Lord Hawkefbury, or the perfon who fucceeded him in the office of Foreign Secretary, to our Minifter at Madrid, on the fubjeti in difpute betwixt the two countries. If no filch initrudions were given, it was fit that this fhould be Rated to the Houle. If, on the other hand, inaruelions were given, it was pro per that the Houfe fhould be in poireffion of them, to enable them to forma fair judgment of the whole of this very extraordinary negociation. On a former day he had moved for a copy of all information re ceived of the oatfage of French troops through the Spanifh territories, referred to in Mr. Frere's dif patch of the gth of September. It was quite clear, that in confequence of the remonarances of our Minifler, the future pelage of French troops through Spain was prevented ; but while this was admitted, it was equally evident that fome explanations took place on the fubjed. Now, it was very important fur the Houle to know what thefe explanations were —but the Houle had hitherto no intOrmation on the fubjed. The exiftence of thefe explanations was in deed fufficiently evident, from references in the dif ' patches of the a4th of November ; but the Houfe knew not in what (pink they were couched, or to what extent they proceeded. Refperaing the Con venticle alluded to in the Correfpondence, he was now convinced, thrt what the Right Honourable Gentle man oppofite (Mr. Pitt) had Rated, was corral— that fuch an agreement between the Government of Spain and the Government of this country had no exiftence. But it was quite as manifea that the Spa nifh Government did, in confequence of what had taken place in various conferences with our Minifter, ruppofed that thcir neutrality was to depend on cer tain underflood conditions. In various parts of the Correfpondence it appeared that Minifters had made various demands for a copy of the Treaty, by which Spain was to furniffi fublidiary refources to France. He wifhed to be informed whether Minifters were ever in poffetlion of an official copy of thisdocument ? The knowledge of this fa& was highly intereftioa, becaufe it would be poffible to form an eilimate, whe ther the terms of it differed widely from thole terms on which, in the firft inßance, our forbearance was founded ; whether it was materially contrary to the principles on which there was a chance of the prefer vation of Spanifh neutrality; or whether Spain, at the time the rupture took place, had (hewn any difpofi tion to alter her conelnd in any way likely to affect the interefts of this country'? It was not attempted to be denied, in the papers already on the table, /bat very important conferences had taken place betwixt the Spanifh Ambaffador here and the Secretary for the Foreign Department. The Chevalier d'An duaga alluded to the conferences in various parts of his difpatches. It was fair to prefume, not only that thefe difpatches were highly interefting, but it was not at all unlikely that the principal part of the difeuffion that took place was committed to writing. The Spanifh Ambaffador (poke in his difpatches of explanations, which thefe conferences produced, and it would furely be very Range indeed, if the Sem- I 'tar? for the Foreign Department nevet communicated any part of the difcuffions to our Mmitter at Madrid, as affording him a rule for the regulation of his con dud in the courfe of the various dile-onions which took place on all the points in difpute. From the Che valier d'Anduaga's difpatches of the 3d of Anguft, it was quite undeniable, that the reuiterence of the 29th and 3oth of Auguft involved matters of the highelt confequence. In the whole of that difpatch it was plain that his Excellency viewed them in that light, and it was not lets obvious that in a fimilar light he had reprefented them to his Court. If he attached fo much confequence to them, was it pre fuming too much to fuppofe that they mull have been at least equally interefting to our Minifter at Madrid? —lt was next to an impoffibility that he fhould have been left altogether ignorant of their principal im portance ; but not a word of what had taken place betwixt Lord Hawkefbury, his fucceffor, and the Spanifh Ambaffador, appeared in the papers already on the table. The Houk, however, ought not to be kept in the dark refpeding any part of fo interefting a bufinefs, and he certainly did think, that if any do cuments connected with ibefe conferences were in ex• iftence, they ought to be produced. He fhould there fore feel it his duty to move for the production of all the Notes which might have been prefented at thofe different conferences to which the Spanifh Ambaffa dor refers in various parts of his difpatches, and on which he appears to lay peculiar fires, as if, in their, the terms of the Spanifh neutrality had been in a great meafure adjufted. He next wifhed to ca ll t h e attention of the Houle to the two Notes of the Spa nifh Minifter on the 4th and the iith of November, in which he gives an official explanation of the Rate of the Spanifh armaments. It was important for the Houfe then to know what was the information on which Minifkers proceeded when the orders for the detention of the Spanifh frigates were iffued. It was material to compare the intelligence received from our Naval Officers abroad, with the folemn afro rances and explanations given by the Spanith Am baffador refident at our Court. Till this information was before the Houfe, it was impotlible to determine how far thefe orders were or were not called for by the aatal Rate of things. If Minillers had any fuch information, the Houfe had a right to demand it.— If Minifters had no fuch information, it was not at all very doubtful what opinion ought to be entertain ed of them fur iffuing the orders. The Hon. Mem ber alto expreffed a defire to have all letters or dif patches which tookplace from February to May 1804, produced. It was fair to prefume that letters of an important kind were written during that interval. In the letter of the 'ft of May a letter of the ifith of February is referred to, and he wifhed to have that letter produced, as affording Come explanation of the manner in which any expectation of the continuance of Spanith neutrality could be preferred. He had thought it his duty to throw out thefe obfervations, not with the view of embarraffing Government, but folely with the objeft of coming, with full informa tion, to the difcuffion of a fubjed which he could not help confidering one of the moll momentous which ever was fubmitted to the decifion of the Houfe of Commons. As to the deficiencies from the Board of Admiralty he fhould at prefent fay nothing, till he had an opportunity of teeing whether the papers he had moved for were fatisfadorily produced. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER anfwered, that, with refped to fuch of the papers as belonged to the department of the Admiralty, they would be fpeedily laid before the Houfe ; and, with refped to the letters of M. D'Anduaga, loch of them as were at all necetTary to throw any light, or com municate any neceffary information upon the fubjeft, were already before the Houfe, as well as the fub- Rance of any communication which had taken place, and could be deemed officially authentic and mate rially important ; but, with refped to the mere written memorandums of the fubftance of any con. ference wish M. D'Anduaga, as alluded to by the Honourable Member, they were not figned by either party, and therefore were not confidered in the light of official documents, and confequently th e y w ere not laid before the Houfe. How far the feveral pa pers forthcoming might be found to anfwer the Hon. Member's purpofe, he was not now competent to fay : he could, however, allure the Hon. Gentle man, that the utrnoft diligence had been ufed to comply, as fully as poffible, with the avowed object of 'his former motions. When the papers fhould be -laid on the table. they would be accompanied by a fchedule, from which the Hon. Member would fee at a glance how far his purpofe was anfwered. It was not his (Mr. Pitt's) defire to withhold any do cument or information, which could with propriety be difclofed : and as to the accounts of conferences which the Honourable Gentleman *poled to have taken place within certain periods by him fpecified, he begged leave to fay, there were none, Pave thofe already Rated in the papers before the Houfe. With refped to the communication of which his Mak.fty's Government was fuppofed by the Hon. Gentleman to be in poffeffion, from Tome other quarter refpeft ing the particulars of the Spanifh Treaty with France, he could affure the Hon. Member, that thrush Go vernment was certainly apprifed, that the rreaty did malt very loon after it was made, and were en abled to form tome conjectures as to its tendency, yet they never were officially furnifhed with any au thentic account of the minute particulars, through any channel ; and all the knowledge they had of this Treaty was already before the Houfe. _ _ Mr. FOX firongly contended for thi importance of having fuch explanations as took place at different conferences alluded to in the difpatches laid before the Houfe. The explanations contained in the con ferences of the 9th and the Both of March, mull, from the language of the letter of the IR of May, have been highly interefling. and ought, by all means, to be produced.—The Right Hon. Gentleman (the Chan cellor of the Exchequer) had indeed (Wed, That mere Notes, prefented by an Ambaffador, perhaps merely offering a private opinion, and not authorized by his Court, could not afford any information to the Houfe. He, for his pa►t, begged leave to argue that this was not a fair view of thelubjed. It was not poffible to conceive from tile language of the Spanint Ambafra dor, when alluding to explanations which had taken place at conferences, that he delivered in unautho rized Notes. It was, on the contrary, quite evident that he alludes to authorized explanations, in which h; laid down tbe principles and views of his Court. It was impoflible to believe that the Notes which paffed on fuch occalion were uninterelling. The prefump• tion was certainly direaly the reverie. and the Houle ought to have an opportunity of exercifing their jud ment on the fubjea. He was therefore anxious for the prodttaion of all fuch explanations as would tend to throw light on this molt interefting ftihjea. There WAS in the pernfal of the Papers a circumstance which puzzled him confiderably, and which requited a good deal of explanation. Our Minifter, Mr. Ftere, in a letter of the t zth of November, Hated, that in con fequence of fume dircullions with the Prince of Peace, he fhould demand a conference. Now it was a mat ter of fume confequence to alcertain sshether ever this conference took place, and if it did take place, what was the refult of it, or what explanation it produced. It WAS hardly to be fuppofed that it fhouid not have been demanded after Mr. Frere, in a letter to the Se cretary for the Foreign Department, had expreffed an opiniqn of its expediency. But the !ionic had not a tittle of information on the fubjea. He withed to have this deficiency, with thofe pointed out by his Honourable Friend, fully fupplied, previous to en. tering on the general quellion. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEO4JER laid, he felt Come difficulty in anfwering fpecihcally to the feveral papers mentioned this night—but he felt no difficulty in anfwering generally, that it was the cornett defire and intention of his Majeftv's Mi nifiers to communicate every thing to the Houfe they conceived to be at all important, and they had :sa nd to the belt of their judgment, in Met conformity to that with. Mr. GREY argued. that the notes given in by the Spann Ambaffador at the conferences alluded to, were, if not official, at moil, important documents. They were reprefentations of the principles and policy of the Spanifh Government; and in that light were highly requifite to guide the judgment of the Houle. Thar they were merely minutes and not figned in the ufual diplomatic flyle, was a matterof no con& deration. Their fpirit was not on account of their form at all affeCted. He ihould eherefore to-morrow, move for copies of the notes delivered, and of expla nations which took place at thofe conferences to which the Spann Ambalfddor in his letters alluded. In the mean time the difcuffion terminated. WAYS AND MEANS. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, in addition to the notice he had already given, of rub. milting to the Houfe fome refolutions refpeaing the Loyalty Loan, on Wednefday next, faid, that he lhould, on this day fortnight, bring forward the Ways and Means for the fervice of the year. Mr. GREY here moved, that copies of any notes which paired between Lord Hawkefbury and M. D'Anduaga, on the sgth and 30th of Augoft, and the Ift of September, 1803, be laid before the Houfe.—Ordered. ARMY iSTIMATES. The SECRETARY at WAR rote to move the Eitimates for the Military Service of the year. He (hould have the honour to follow the example of thee who preceded him, whole ability he ihould be proud to emulate. In laying before the Committee the ar rangement of the public force in the prefent year, as compared with the paR, he Ihould Rate the difference of increafe or decreafe, and the caufes which had oc • curred to create fuch difference. The Right Hon. Secretary then proceeded (portly to the detail of his fubjea, that under the head of Guards at.d Garrilons, there was a confiderable increafe in the ex pence of this year, upon a comparifon with the la It, owing to the addition of 20 men, rank and file, to each of nine regiments. That there would be a confiderable rednition of expence, under the head of Army of Referve ; for of the 16 battalions kept open in the tall year througkout the country, all :he men advanc ed in years, or (port in Rature, or boys not arrived at full growth, were formed into three battalions in- Read of t 6, the reit being drafted into other regi ments—thefe battalions it was propofed to keep up at 720 men each, and by this arrangement a very con- Utterable faving would be effdled in the pay of Of ficers. Under the head of Barracks, though a very confiderable redudion had taken place, yet (till the expence would be unavoidably great. So long as the menace or danger of invafion continued, there mutt be Barracks kept up on the coif for so,ooo men.— Having gone through his Ratements, he proceeded to move the feveral Eftimates, according to the follow+ ling Schedule : Guards, Garrifons, &e. For Gt. Britain. For Ireland. maw - - 43,313428 x 8 1,228,391 IX • Forces in the Plantations, 46,932 - 1,424,920 11 7 General and Staff Officers, with a State of the Par tieulars of the Chaco ata,t66 t 8 6 76,691 4 g India Forces, 20,145 - 471,461 olt Troops and Companies for recruiting ditto, 460 - 25,410 1g 4 Recruiting St Contingencies 50,000 0 0 125,866 7 ; Embodied Militia and Fen- cible Infantry, 103,328 2 p49 , 7 12 o I 61 4 , 00 18 I Continganies for ditto - so,coo o o • 5692 6 a Clothing for ditto - 198,793 0 0 Full Pay to Su pernume- vary (Meets - 33.334 4 It 1,135 z 9 Offices - - t 82,867 7 8 8,971 I 2 Allowance to Innkeepers, &c. - - - 357,000 o o 1t9, 6 99 S Half Pay and Military Allowances - 150,000 0 0 31,288 16 5 —Ditto—American Forces 50,003 0 0 —Ditto—Scotch Brigade ',coo 0 0 In-Penfioners of Chelfea & _ Kilmainham Hofpitals 30 481 1 5 22,746 18 0 Out-Pcnfioners of ditto 167,984 8 4 28,185 3 7 Widows' Penfiona - 23,237 19 5 6.000 0 0 Foreign Corps, 17,386 827,092 a I 24,157 8 3 Hofpital Expeoces (Ireland) 20,623 11 10 Royal Military College (with the General Stair, and particulars of the Senior and Junior De partments) - - r i.3r5 6 4 Royal Military Afyluna 23,458 6 a Barrack Department (Ire land) - - - 483.698 II 8 10,059,7 6 4 3 4 471,461 0 11 2,807,187 S 3 Deduct for India Faren Total 9,588,303 a 5 2,8 , 4487 5 3 On moving that item which regards the force of 20,145 men for India fervice, Mr. FRANCIS wilhed to be informed, whether this force was exclutive of the Company's European forces in India, as he underltood the European force iu the Company's fervice there at prcfent was not above eight or nine thoufand men. • The SECRETARY at WAR anfwered, that there were exchilive of the Company's own European troops, which, however, very confiderably exceeded the number [teed by the Honourable Member, though he believed they fell fhort of 30,000 men.