Star. — London, England, 1802-12-10 00:00:00

. PARLIAMENTARY PROCENDINGL HOUSE► OF LORDS, THURSDAY, DSC. 9. The Doke of BILDFORD was fworn, and took his feat, on his abeetton to the Peeragaby the desalts of the late Duke. The Marquis of ogiNCISAM and Lard SOMBRIILLE were alto hewn, and soak their feats. TIN third reading of the /snail rotes Bill was again poft peed. The Chefter Road Bill was read a fecond time, and fome private bands &fried of i after which the Holt& adjourned till to-marrow. HOUSE OF COMMONS. The Hoare la s Committee :greed to the Malt Duty Bill; and the Eadhetuer Bills l3iii. The Reports to be readied to- filerrow. • The kilt Militia Bill was read a third time and paffed. An order was made, that an addrefs be prefinted to his Ma jefty. praying, that he would be pleafed to lay before the Houfe an account of the Comb iffued by his Mkjeby's orders, perfume to addreffes from that Houk, and whiok buns had not been Made good by Parliament. The Bill for the iffue of Navy Bills was read a faxed time. Ordered to be committed to-morrow. Mr.Aezzausza brought up the Report of the (alifkotion Ind , malty Bill, which was agreed to, and the Bill ordered to be read *third time tO4llOaOW. Mr. Collet brought up a BM w continue for a further time the Ad for regulating the Export and Import of Corn between Great Bikainand Ireland. It was read a bra time. Mr. Collar, purfuant to a notice he had given, rofe to move. for leave to bring in a Bill for reducing all the Itith Militia Alts income.' Leave was given. Mr. 00R4 r brought up . 11 - 818 for mutat% the Baking bra • Griefs of the City of DMZ Read a firft tithe, and ordered *be read a tinted time to-morrow: A new Writ was ordered fora Member to ferTe n Parlia mem foe the Borough. of Lymington. in the room of General Purrard, who has accepted the Chikern Hundreds. Mr. VamsarTaar prefented a front Ehveral Cloth • workets in the C o unties of Wilts and praying that & they might be reamed from the ccusiegnences of mitain eoselbgp adopted aPinit them, on amount of their nfing m* Chi wy in the wastibg of their cloths. He Obkrired, that' peat ftwhaiim had 'prevailed in thole places where, th e Obsess reidedp emanated by worbnien whom they bad em ployed. Thellankspenee was, they were obliged to make eh • machbery, which was contrary to an Aft of Parliansim Proceedings yeas accordingly initiated spit* them, and , thole it was tits objedVof the prefent Petition to fufpoul. He then:fort gave notice, that he would move for leave to bring im a till to fufpend thole proceeding for i attain ?The /Petition was ordered to he on the table. The SPItAt IL informed the Hook, that John Agnew, I*. who had prefented a Petition, complelning of an undue.eke! Om for the Boreigh of Bridgewater, did goc cater into o tecognisance, according to AEI of I : l4#Nnebt, to prokcute Petition. On the snodetrat Mr. VANSITiai thiorder for tahing Penton confssiagtiil op aura day, was then dif diarged. • • 11$11 0 CULT 'ROM THE CORKIIIVILOT PIPS LY• Mr. T.OREarILLE rote, and latimated that the. . mss' hour of the debate lea nigia prevented him from taking a part, and obliged bun to give this the air of an adjourned debate ; that it vi;a‘.not his intention to fatigue the Houfe ; but it was in cumbent on biro to fay fomethins of the view be enteftained of the Report the Ilo ufe was about to receive. He recalled, firft, the attention of the Houle Io the grounds upon which: he had cen lured the vote of Supply for the navy ; and, he was furgrifed to find; in anfwet to his objeaions, as to the unulhal method of the application from. a Noble Lord (Hawkeßsury), "Aso did affert, that there was nothing unufual in the manner, or unlike former times; sirs objeeing; hoverer, he thought confiftent with his duty ; and, he Wafted, the fpeeches of Yfinifters were not fit parry. *lemur documents for the proceedings of chit Houle; and that in agreeing , with them with Out more evidence, was rubmeting the dignity pr Parliament. He maintained that in the practice of Parliament, when any definitive treaty had bean figned, no infiance whatever could be found in Which the Government had not thought fit to fignify to the Houle ' and Rate all the detailed cir curpßances which W ould lead to the Reps of new applications. The Right Hon. - Gentleman Rated the treaty of Utrecht, that of Aix-la-Cbapelle, &c. which went to pro's his affertipn : the firft of which in particular (hewed the praaice of Parlia stem, and there was no it:Rance in which any in. creafe or 'diminution took place without fufficient documents, even fkom the Throne itfelf. Was it for the dignity of Parliament that the mere knov;- ledge of a fait was neceffary ? Was the proclaim: ling war made by . the Herald at Temple Bar fulfi cient ? The Mon iteur would no doubt make men tion of t, and after it the London prints; but was. that enough? Government fhould give a pledge by communicationsof the meafaresit means to purfue. In regard to the prefent confideration, he mutt fay, that although he never heard a more accurate or able filament than that made by the Secietary at War,be thought the Houfe not fufficiently ac -quainted with the nature of tome of the Ratements, and particulary in regard to garrifons, when' they were called upon to vote fo large a rum without knowing what garrifons were to be provided for. He antrcrpated, that it was neceffary for force and vigour to be ready in cafe of emergency, - wouldbe the anfwer. This led him to confider, that by the Treaty of Peace the Cape of Good Hope, and the ifland of Malta were to be given up—one was pot furrendered, and it was reported that the other' , was not to be evacuated, in cafe the inftruftions could reach them previoufly to that meafine . .— How neceffary was rt then that the Houk fhould know the extent it had to go ? Qtrellions to this purport had been'frequently afked ; but no anfwer ad been given. He fhould confider the vote more minutely, as it tended to two dißinft points of Goiernment in aficing that namely to re pel national infult, and repel bottile aggreffion, which no doubt was right in one point; but when the objeas were to be confined to thole two points, they Indented but one feature, that of defence, and not of attack. If that conclufion be true, are thole large efiablifhtrients then for no purport but to wait until the hoftile preparations of the enemy fhould be read to attack us ? This opinion had been adopted s ilo by many Gentlemen who look• god upon et in the fame light, but who had differed, with him upon other points. The Right Hon. • Gentenan thou ht that the continental - extent of France cosy affeited the Maritime force of this Octraßedoberefore, that be had sewed the fubjett of ContinendalSent which be re-stated his former arguments, and v furprifed that the Ratement of an Honoural Gentleman (Mc. Fox) should go to any (Kalov on the advantage of fuch conneaions. When 6rft this ftrange doarine of abfelving ourfelves from all fuCh alliances was put forward, it involved in it felf a queftion of infinite moment, the balance of power in Europe, upon which that Gentleman had ' made a remarkable affertion- 44 What (laid he), would be the confolation of the miferable peafant o when fitting in mifery over his dying embers, to , .be told, that his afilietions and wretchednefs con -Iduced to the balance of power in Europe?" He 'for one (Mr. G. law it in a different light ; he :thought he would feel a national pride that his ;fufferings conduced to the general good,that,how, ever, he was Pure would be the Englifh feeling.— , The Honourable Gentleman was willing to keep .the fcale of the balance.; but however he fhould difcontinue his remarks on his fpeech, although he t 'had manyargtunents tooffer in anfwer,as he found !that he was not in his place. However, there was one point which be felt obliged to take notice of, although he might not probably, as he was not in ;the kloufe, be accurate as to its extent. In fpeak ':i4Olf continental Alliances, the Hon. Gentleman krid*lnused the Houfe againft the contequenoes j oiliel4onneaions ; and in noticing the ambition, as we as the conqueßs of France, he declared that it-wairowing to . the Houfe of Airdrie that the King of Sarnwiti not reftnred. He here toot: i' view of the': l different relations between that' 'kingdom and iließepublic of Venice, fo far as it miglainterferc with Auftria. He dwelt with mug: animation on, the peifortal attack that he Fox) had made' 'on tint and his friends, endea voured to refute the.. with that was, imputed to Oeits of withipcto get into place AfPffiled sigh . an euloginmspon the,talest4 asd{pug ty of Mr- ritt,womikkbathe asiaitt be.atai# called. into-Power. .. • •-, -• , Lord HAWXIIBUitT o in teply; Paid that the at lack pointed wink Minifters for notllying fuf ficent informaucin before the Hottfe, had already been repeatedly replied to. The fyitem Mini tiers dove purfued was that which has ufually been 'adopted refpeCting foreign affairs. Minifters were .necdfed of not laying papers before the Houfe re-' lath; to louse difcciffions which are fuppofed to have taken place: bat whether they have taken plane or not, Gould Miniffers make any prqipitate or, indifcreet 'difclpfure about thent is only' when Parliament is called upon for money, or for their advice 'sit fome particular emergency, that fort con!menscatioris as thofe alluded to by , Hop. Gentleman, are hactrecourfe to. Bell , it would be impoffible in a Wage or a Spec .1 from the Throne to cater into the details that feem . to be tiquired. - Ail° foreign alliances Minifters }sad likeaife already. laginmed themfelves : they . corifelted it.to be apart&their policy to look for continental alliances; but that policy was to be* direaed by prudence, and regulated by the various circumftances of times and events. That was his early opinion ; in the fame he Rill continued, and both experience and hiftory concurred in confirm. ing him in'that opinion. The country was fel dont; if ever, involved in. war on account of its continential connexions ; and when it Rood alone without allies, as in the America!) war, its for tunes were rat le fs profperous. The Noble Lord here took oecafion to vindicate the Cabinet of, Vienna from many reproaches with which it hat been loaded, during the late conteft—in fome re fpeas, indeed, that Cabinet may have misjudged its own interefts ; but from a general view of the condna of Auftria, under the moll trying circum '4ances, it moll be acknowledged to have evinced sr-perfeverance and fidelity that have never been forpaffed. ' The Noble Lord argued firongly israinft the affertion of an Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Fox) that we had not more reafon to be alarmed by the power of France now, than on any former place. He begged the Houfe tneonfider the vaR increafe of coat, of harbours, and fonseffes,which France hid of late years obtained ; and frill more to confider this, that whatever might have been the ambition of the Houfe of Bourbon (that am bition he was ready to admit), that family never had the fame degree or defcription of power to carry .its projeas into effea, which the prefent French Cove' nment poll - died. From the moral Rate and ftroaure 'of France at this time, the was ' -competent to the undertaking of fuch hazardous and defperate enterprizes as no regular Govern: ment would gieditate or attempt. With. refpea to the common cant of feparating meafures from -men, it in his judgment generally fprung from a principle of hyp . ocrify, or complete ignorance of the ;world, for it was obvious' that they mull al ways, to a certain degree, go together. If mea lures were to he condemned, the men who devifed and direaed thole meafurei, 'mull participate of that condemnation. If Minifters were guilty of Each mitcondua, as to deferve the cenfure of the Houle; it would then become the dut' of the Houfe to vote' an Addrefs to his Majefty to have I•thenv removed from office—kr if their fyftem ilsould be difapproved, it would be abfurd to commit to their management a different fyfterbt to which it me lit be fairly Prefumed.ebey world be rather 4011 - e —that would be putting the loarine of confidence inindisiduals to an extreme indeed. That meafures might he condemned, though" the men conneaed Wi.th them Might be approved - in fome degree, was au intelligible propo fi tion ; but the converfe of the pro . titian, be colfeffed; be could not tinderftand. " at he meant to eftablifti was, that if Minifters were to be tOndemned, with out condemning they meafisies, the Gentlemen thought proper to attack themilboldi adopt public means to procure their regltivalt Such' would be the. more confißetir and conflitutional mode of proceeding. The appliattinn of there re marks was obviolis. 44 Whatever I maT i think," added the Noble Lord, $ 4 of the PretclPUve of the Crown, however much I may refpealtp- I willai- Ofays maintain the right of this H on k' to demand the removal of Wailers ; bqt !Wel& maintain i that that APllllllTifi di& A .;:t. Antntot of his Majeey's Minifters we dc. on cabgandintrigne.—vrould become (111. C• of perfonal canvali. The controvert of 4784 edling the. appointment of Minifters, may be • ...morred to ; but it mutt be recolleded, that the objedions then taken were upon public graisnds ; whether thefe grounds were tenable or not, is not now the queftion ; but it is undeniable that they arofe from public, and not from perfonal sonfider ations. I fhould be glad if there obfervations had come from kme other perfon, but as the topic has not occurred to other Gentlemen, though fre quently obtruded upon the Hoare from a certain quarter, I thought it right to remark To As to the application of what I have fold, I beg leave to flare, and I Meal; with no lea c , , , ' • ence for my Colleagues than I feel for myfelf,* at it is our desire to be tried by our meafuresTtbatl they fhould be fully and fairly dircu ff ed4s,our r wifh; and, if they fhould meet the difapprobatiok of Parliament, and the country, -I can affure -the ' Houfa itis not our difpofition to remain invike. Upon the fair judgment of our counen we With to (}and —Ca . cry of bear 1 beard from hfr trym ..8b lam, and the optofitson Bench]—to that we appeal.— if in the opinion of this Houle and the Country, it &mild appear that we have not juftly eftimated thcinterefts, or carefully guarded the honour of tie Empire, we have no inclination to pufh rogative againft privilege. If it be the parogative of the Crown to appoint its Minifters, wefeel that it is not loft the privilege of Parliament to 'difeufs and ioutroul their proceedings. My idea it, 111 g, let not 'the Crown be every thing ; at the Imite.time let it not be reduced-so nothing. My conception' of the dety of Minifieri is, that we fhould be ever vigilant to fupport thcclignity and intere ft s of the. Crown—ever anxious to coalult the wifdent, and' roodrio abide hy the deciiiims of ParliamentA Sir FRANCIS SURDS TIP laid, that in his opinion 'tbe queftion dour before the Houfe its impor =ueftion as ever was offered foi . the confs of Parliament, for it was, , the Haat fhoukhaffee to a larger latatl. pent than ever had been offered at - any flirtne!pe ;loci in time of peace, and that on she:Were gene.; rat ground of the fitnatioCor the 'cOuntry and of Europe, without at all'fap whit tUt fi us*: don was ? He was de fi roltsof delivering his fend; meats on that quetiocre as well as to aruseadvert on Tome thin*: which hit&falieh out in the courfe of the debate telliat had taken place op shis fub- Jed, -JO** Hon; Gentleman had complained that the AMIN of tha Wore bad net been duly cow plied with, inafrfinch as that there was áoes galas communication from the throne, Ivhelltop' the Hpitfe might stet, and be regularly called 6§611` to stet: .that:bbfervation. appeared to hiM tv.be founded on found fenfe and good principle, and he thought it became Minifters, on fuels an-ciecafion as this, to have laid Tome fuch, or'fome other au thentic and regular information before the Houfe, before-they called upon it to affent so-foch a vote as this. On the fubjee of the balance of power of Europe, he laid, he agreed with an Hon. Gentle— man oppofite to him (Mr. Wilberforce). He'did .not fay that we thould not have any Continental conneition,•but that we fhould, as much as .poffi ' file, abltain' from hecoMing principals in 4clx con neaions, for, that led us to be concerm4 in the quarrels of others, in a manner that was highly injurious to put interefts; we might. Indeed, fome we: add oar weight, but we ought never to es. haat oar ftrength in the adjuftment of; Conti 'sent*, difpates. A doatine contrary to this had been too often followed, and it was a very object tionablc pradtice, for it gave Minifters an oppor-, tunity of involving the people of this country in the attainment of objeas, the intereils of which to us might be very doubtful, and fometimes might norextft ; fo that the people did not join in it, and this a war might be faid, not to be the war of th e people; and this was of itfelf an evil. Many things had been faid concerning the talents, of a Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Pitt), who had not yet at tended in the prefent Parliament. Unpleafant as it was to (peak of the character of any man, yet the turn which part of the late debates of the Houle had taken, rendered if neceffary that he fhould fay a few words upon that fubjedt,: it was an unpleafant, but it was a public duty, for a Member of Parliamedt to deliver his opinion on the character of another, whenever that was made a fubjed of reference to public affairs. The court. .try was Rated, by thofe who moft admired the abilities of that Right Hon. Gentlemanyand who now called for his return to power, to be in a Rate of the utmoft danger ; they faid, that the prefent moment was big with alarm—that the ap pearance of things was gloomy beyond former •exatnple. la all this he agreed with chore Gen tlemen ; but he confefted they furprifed him very much by their expreffion of a de fi re to fee that Right Hon. Gentleman in his former fitnation ; for he bad no difficulty in laying, that it was his opinion moft of the-difficulty which we now felt was owing to that perfon. No individual, in his opinion, had contributed fo much to bring us into our prefent fitnation as that Right Hon. Gentle- Man. Bin it teethed that 99 people out of leo were for the return of that Qentlernan to his for- Mer•ftation. 'Who thefe 99 were he did not know. He did notcay that he had any peculiar means of arriving at the knowleclge o the opinions of the public, hat from aU the opporthnities he had had, he was allured that no perfons ever went out of Ace 'With mote Complete public indignation and bitred diati the late Adminiffration. With ft. Med to the *team; more immediately before the Houfe, which was a queftion on the Rea . 4 gfta llohlhatent, it 'was admitted to be great, becanfe itliinifters laid we had ne choice but that of two evil that n(the expellee of oyt oymprepaiLation . an the one hand, and the French power on the other; • He looked on the propofed force as itery edit) but that was not what he objeded tB' fo • much, as that this was only part wf Oh, which - led to other much` More ohjedionatlellieafaies,l fuch as barracks, penfions, and fo faith, upoit which topio he expatiated at eonliderable length, s e nd conteltded that 444 fyftem orthingt wto • 1 Reps Wog an gin reform h o e ut - Of trot pretend to sy f what particular thonld be taken, perhaps he might think tha b t e end to the fyftem of fo teary cells, to & perfuaded the laft Adminiftration at the tight end, thofe of penfions =lauded with obferving, that although cice. w i t wint Power with the public indigtra . eloir yet ofthe pre fent he would fay in civil language, ' for no had been stoke he did not think th ey d S de other fed the — Ka, econg iice. He thought the p P°lrer. of Frimta..grest lit It‘wat, was likely loon - 'wet : but dint Was not an espedlation which t° fall " calculated upon: he was ready to m e etethould be Cep and vote confidence In Aipiniftrati e d p an. thefe terms, that they Gould pollen the " LI " °la of the publi .o—that they ihould 'v confidence. grounded expatation of: a reform tPof allva well. iec.llobut as that was not the cafe at abut.44 r prefent, h e could pot adint to, the meafure now Mr.-1. H. BILOWNI Cdhgaited the a P ti t .:r eif men ci ;, c the Hon ., Bart . refpeaingthe late and - pr l -- °. sifters; and' save . it as his.decidod opin i on,' Mi. i the ikfght Hon. Gentlemen (Mr. Pitt) Wh o had met. wnit filch revere cenfure from him ' h ad beta the means, bihis great talents an d wife meal* of L fakft both tba Conflitution and the Co uuntry res, fro In uttif.rulhl t i t:l:bill for. hiss the S . l) a lter k ' would ant sow be - in th e Chair o f that ro ute, He defended the miens ellabhrhne fhould have bislupport.; -and he f ezt , and kid i t his conqdence in vOtiogTuch a force, to nn tli chst e ck : the hands of dick Mlhifters who had formed Treaty bfalisiiiii‘nn4 . even pe ace -th 'Tied the e country, ,Ifr - xlid - not-vote ' -L-the purpoc e of n. colnprlng Vial, foX'be.WitiTurelt was n e ith er khaie WI no4,4‘eittitifi," but fo r ehe pur • - -- pole d I mainiaimng -Peace, inikitith it the rectifier and the honsuirW die.ComOrlr7 • ' ' ' , 1 Sir F. BUILLIaI!Irr tOritAfexplajn. Ititu.C . A • c L ItAkiP a ref' ale fail. with great mine.. tance, to trefp for It - fflOri:motnent. by deli vering thorefentinsilits *. 1 411,, as a Member of Parliameric, he felt alio duty, to exprefs on the *prefent Olathe°. • He had paid•the ftriaoll atm !don toile:1 , 110k of the diauffion which had taken iplactio . this fabler; and upon the fulleft CODviC tiOn df r ~.t *Atom 'ant 1 g oo d condudt of his hi a. a, ,Ealogo: icrs• and the,trtert convidion tha ls edZ 0i,ain4,04 lilt night, was seceffary to the mak. Peace, witionak honour, and ;iatignal ifkirritehe ita_ve:thaz vote his molt hearty appec k !bati ~,, se ale on. Baronet had fpoken of the fam, 'Ast lie had witnetted of the pnblic's,opinion `of the condufft of his Majelles prefent Minifters. '14 1 101) Ititd reca famplesof that opinion, as fond 'nnd - futttrie iti!sny winteffedty the Hon. Baronet, 1 4 1 4 irdw e llitlfe famPles, he believed they had the tweets' canfidence of , the People; and the heft Tin ithis . .mind, for them to maintain that confi dence, was-by- following up the Peace which they had concluded, as confonant to the willies of the country. The Hon.- Bartmet had fpoke of the tin. ufualforce, by this vote confided to Minifters, but he forgot, at the fame time, to mention the large 'force and extending aggrandizement of France, which had already abforbed nearly the whole power of the Continent. But, however neceffary fuch a force might be at the prefent day, and under the eziltin . g circumftances of Europe, he hoped the day was not far remote, when it might be reduced to the ordinarY PeaCe Eitibliflument without any curie for public apprenenfion. r 4 r.. LAWRENct, in a Ipeech of two hours con. smuance, condemned the condudt of his Majeity's Miailiets, upon the fame ground with his friends who_had before-rpoken in the debate :—namely, that of coming - billiard to - call upon Parliament for fo (mutual 4 force for a. peaCe eitablithment, without ftating any fpecific caufes in the fituation of the Country: He agreed, however, that the al pea of Continental affairs, and the Wenacing condudl of France, her aggrandizing fpirir, and flagrant aggieffions upon other nations, were fait clout to roufe alarm in this country, her defigns againft -which were by no means snuivocal ; but if there was any peculiar circumflance in the re. cent condudt of France, that taught Minifiers the neceiAty of fo fuddenly changing their pacific all pat, and inftead of continuing to difbanct the pub. lic force, now to call for a renewal of its itrength, it was their duty to the Houfe to Rate fuch cit.- cumflance, that Parliament and the Country tboul4 no longer remain dubious of their a4ual lunation; but be enabled to contemplate the public danger, and face it with fortitude.' The Hon. Member ad verted to a multifarious variety of topics conn•ae4 with the fubjed of peace and war, and condemned the former a, having been, in his mind, concluded under circumttances, and upon terms, neither ho• nourable to the nation, advantageous for its prc fperity, nor chara6terittic of that firmnefs and dig- nity, which became a Bra!) Government. In the conclufion of this Treaty too, he argued, there had been the moil dithonourable ckreli6tion of the in terells of thofe powers who had been our allies ;-- more efpeciaßy the King of Sardinia and the Prince of Orange ; the latter of whom, the old and faith ful ally of England, and hereditary friend of the houfe of Brunfwick, who had facrificed everything , had been deprived of his dominions and his pri vate property, and was now abandoned, wit.hout the indemnity which was laid to have been filial• lated for him. Minifters, in proleiling the grounds on which they would maintain peace, talked muds of national honour, and hoflile aggreflion, on the paii of France. Was the treatment offered bf France to the Stadtholder, and tamely fubmitted to on . the part of this Country, conlittent With national honour ? Was fo foul a breach of that part of the Treaty on his behalf, not to be con fidered as holt& aggreflion ? If fo, then thole terms mull have widely changed their meanings. —What ' was the infulting cOndua offLred 'to. a 'Britifh Officer at Paris, Captain D'AuverFniet: Dragged ' rim his bed at the dead h our of aig . and without any crime alledged againft 110, c.ito ra i mitted prifot w h e re to a loathfome dungeon; e he was five days confined without beinginforr id of ant 'Charge igainfl him. Upon intL , ence made an his behalf, by . ou r Envoy at I', he was indeed difcharged from prifon, but us -. -.—..L.A..,,,,,i c ? Not v_____lii-iP9IFg, V' ia ofer. park, ~ 0 41 under ; y, or