Star. — London, England, 1818-06-04 00:00:00

take it up: It would have to run the gauntlet of all the proceedings In the office. Exceptions would then be taken to the report; those exceptions ithiild be most ably, and learnedly, and elaborately argued by Counsel, but, he apprehended, not so concisely and deeply as they would be by the Commissioners. It void then be sent back to the Master for revision, ace. " And find no end, in wandering mazes lost !" Tie conclusion from all this, in his mind, was, that tic Court of Chancery might be excellent for many reposes, but that to the suitors in it it was ruinous. Jr might be an ornament to the State, but it destroy /I those who were so unfortunate as to have any thing to do with it. And here he begged to guard himself against being misunderstood. He unequi tocally disavowed the intention of throwing the slightest imputation on the integrity, on the talents, o: on the incomparable and unprecedented learning of the Noble and Learned Lord at the head of the Cart of Chancery. He sincerely believed that from the earliest period of the English law to the present time, there never had been any individual in that 'situation more anxious to do justice to all parties.-- But notwithstanding all these good qualities on the put of the Noble and Learned Lord, it was his (Mr. Brougham's) duty to say, that there was a something in the Court of Chancery that set at defiance all cal culations of cost and time ; and rendered the cele brated irony of Swift, when he made one of the Ya hoos tell a Houhenm that his father had been wholly ruined by the misfortune of having gained a Chan-, eery suit, nor only not an exaggeration, but a strictly correct description of the fact. Having dwelt at such length on this part of the subject, he should commis what he had to say in as few words as possible. lie was convinced that the time was at hand when the un animous sense of the country would be declared on • subject, and when the most anxious wish would be i hierally expressed for a full, unsparing, and honest ieresegation of those notorious and shocking abuses. it belonged to that House, and to that House alone, to • r suds a benefit on the community. If they sat rainele, and rout out Commissioners without taking e.:cchee stops to render the labours of those Com miieioileis effective, • their proceedings would be a eaoc'etse, and not a real advantage. The Commis ,.; might traverse the country, they might hold sittian they might spew a good will is cause, they toight invite persons to attend, they aught frame questions to be put to those I might expect answers, but they would foat in vain unless they were backed by the Hobe, airs it were universally known and that night re cognised, that the House was resolved to do its duty—(kear, hear, hear.) Unless it did this, it would occasion the utmost irritation, inflammation, and ex asperation in every parish, from one end of the country to the other. It was the duty, and he trusted a would be the pleasure of that ;House to institute tae required investigation. There was but one way of dein' , so—it was by resolving, to re-appeint the Committee in the next Session of Parliament, to v neitute it of the same individuals—to confer on is oae same powers as at present—(hear, hear, hear.) Lai that be done, and he cared not for the mutila tans which the Bill before the House had suffered (*.where. The Committee would supply all the deficiencies which these mutilations were calculated to occasion. Whatever mar be attempted to impede the attainment of this desirable object, I trust we shall so vigilantly protect the Commissioners in the execution, of their duty, as to prove to all persons that any efforts to frustrate the views of this House aidto defeat the hopes of the cou n t r y, are va i n ; and I trust, that all who have hitherto thwarted, or tho may yet endeavour to thwart our views, whe ther from an interested fear, unless their own mal versations should be detected, or from their base fellow feeling for the malversations of others, or from a silly and groun dl ess t i m idi ty—t ha t all t hose who, on whatever grounds hold out a protecting hand to Malversation, from the Hereditary or Mitred Patron cf abuses, down to the meanest speculator in them, may learn that the time is gone by when the per could be robbed with impunitv."—(hear, bear.) The Honourable and Learned Gentleman then moved, " That an humble Address he presented to his Royal Eg'lness, praying he would be . graciously pleased to !aro a Commission to inquire into the State of the Li'-cation of the Poor in England and Wales, and to report tram time to time to his Royal Highness and to this Hous. thereon." Lord CASTLEREAGH objected to the temper of emtroversy introduced into the discussion of this question, whilst it was important to conciliate and harmonize all sides. The measure sent to the other Iluase was so different from the object first in view, that the Honourable a n d Learned Gentleman could sot be surprised, that the difficulties, insurmountable at the present moment, should have encountered it in another House. The Committee had originally a'pointed to inquire into the state of the educa tion of the tower orders of the poor, principally in the metropolis, but not to enter into a _general exa miriatim of all charities. The purview of the original inquiry had afterwards been extended to authorize the Commissioners to investigate, not only the funds pnnected with education, but those of all charitable insututier.s. He (Lord Castlereagh) had reconciled himself to this extension of power and objects, but the Honourable and Learned Gentleman could not be surprised that a diligent view of it should have been taken in the other House, who were not pee. pr.:el to approve of such an extension of principle. He tr.zn defended the Court of Chancery, and con ten :ed that nothinT was less fair than to try its la- , IT3 the delayr.../hich the r.ccurnuiation of Rnblie :right rerder necessary. The House itself, • every Court of Justice. must apllear equally It tried by that criteriiln. It would be self a9sion on the part of the Haase , to suppr.se that e•li Commission could administer the justize of the To f.lllc,w up the caw! cf abuse, it would : - .-, , ,Ea r y to go up to the Court of Chancery.— • be more calculated to retard than to ad t,at the Free. cause, if the Commons were to spew to ran counter to the proceedings atlop tcj• • Ll:t cnher F - :oltm., and to pi with an Address c. Princ e Regttr.:. The If or.ourahle and Learned tn7.4.eui.:n said .n.it he had it in contemplation to re ccrnmittoe. There would then be two Com and the other rcyal—and a employed at the same time in the same Would this be exactly p ''• •' cr roper? Wo u ld prel.oll,: to proceed with the present C om - ar::17.4 with great powers, theugi :her wire . _,~lw not quite so extensive as those originally proposed? would not be tiefeiteti by a itiantetine iront any I Early next Session Report s o f i ts p roce edi ngs wou ld quarter, h owever high t and he was sure nothing probably be hid before the House, and if it were was so likely to pi-deduce that impression on the people, found right to extend its authority, that Might then that Gentlemen on the opposite side thought tt most be done. There could be nothing more fatal to the desirable to guard against, as adopting a line of con system in view than to oppose the authority of the duct that went to protect those who misused the funds Commons to that of the Lords, and to try to achieve appropriated to charitable purposes, and thus inter by Address that which the other House had not cepted what, in the words of the Poet, it might be said, thought proper at this early stage to tOncede. He " Came; Heaven -directed, to the poor r then expressed his surprise that the Honourable and Mr. CANNING said, that in the few observations Learned Gentleman should have retired after sub- which he had to make to the House on the present mitting his proposal to the House.--EMr. Brougham motion, he would not enter into any examination of soon after returned.]—He trusted the House would the statements or the reasonings of the Honourable feel that inquiry could be only useful when pursued Baronet who had just concluded, or of those who had in a spirit of moderation, and that to address the spoken earlier in the debate on the same side, not be- Crown would only be to introduce an unfavourable cause he wished to shew any disrespect to what they temper between the two Houses. He concluded by had advanced, but because they did not touch on that moving the previous question. view of the question to which he was desirous more Mr. BROUGIIAM explained that he had not been particularly to advert. They had argued as if the guilty of disrespect. Though out of the House, not : obje c ti on ex i ste d to t h e o bj ect o f the Nonoueable and one word which the Nobl e L or d h a d uttered had been Learned Gentleman's motion, while he opposed, not lost upon him, and he had only retired to take some the object of the motion to which he had always ex .refreshment. t pressed himself friendly, but the proposed mode of Sir SAMUEL ROMILLY thought that the re- carrying it into execution. In order to obviate the medy to be had in the Court of Chancery was not limputations which might be cast upon his opposition adequate to redress the abuses which existed in cha - by remarks like those in the Hon. Baronet's (Sir Fran ritable institutions. The information must be filed cis Burdett's) speech, he would distinctly state that by a person who hid no interest in the litigated sub- he was favourable to the measure of the Hon. and ject, and who must advance a large sum to cover all Learned Gentleman, as introduced in his Bill ; that the expenses, with the chance of being repaid after he had attended the discussions that took place upon many years, and on a strictly taxed bill of costs.— it ; that he never gave his vote against it, and that he When the delays to which the suit could be rendered only doubted of the propriety of the means or the liable, the odium of attacking one's neighbours, and mode now proposed to accomplish the object of it.-- the necessity of advancing large sums, were consi- He would, at the present time, frankly say, that if dered, it would be seen that no remedy could be had the Honourable Mover had continued to support his in Chancery for the abuses in question. Bill as originally introduced, he would have given it Mr. BATHURST did not expect a pr position his most strenuous opposition in all its stages. 'The like that of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, as the Bill as sent up to the Lords had his entire concur notice on the paper merely was for a motion relative rence, and he had shewn no unwillingness to support to charitable institutions. He then defended the it, and to further its object; but the House was now amendments made by the Lords to the Bill, and ex- called upon to consider, whether a measure, intro pressed his intention to vote for the previous question. duced at first after a laborious inquiry, and after a Mr. ELLISON wished the measure to be made speech from the Learned Gentleman, which (if he effective, and should vote against the Bill in the dis- would accept a compliment from him, which would graceful state in which it now was. be allowed to proceed from no undue partiality) Mr. ABERCROMBIE thought that the motion of brought the subject home to the feelings of every man his Hon. and Learned Friend ought to be adopted. who heard him, was to be made the occasion of set- Since no one pretended to deny the great abuses ting aside the powers of the other branch of the Le which existed in Public Charities, why should they gislature, because that other branch could not see all not be subjected to the same investigation as those as provisions in the same light as the House or the connected with the Education of the Poor, when a Honourable and Learned Mover. He would state a Commission was appointed ? With the information few facts in the history of the Bill as it passed through Parliament possessed on the subject of the abuses this House, in order to shew that the same opportu which had existed, they were bound to take steps for nities of deliberating and considering it had not been redressing the evil. allowed to the House of Peers. The subject had Mr. LOCKHART supported the motion, and been introduced on the 17th of March, and the Bill contended that the inquiry ought not only to extend on the Bth of April. From the Bth of April to the to all charitable institutions whatever, but that it 20th of May, it had continued under deliberation, was their duty to arm the Commissioners with such l and all the parts of it had been carefully examined, powers for conducting it, as should leave those con- I digested, and polished. There had been no hostile netted with charities no chance of escaping the vigi• i discussion, but every desire was manifested to ac lance of that House. t commodate it to its object. On the 20th of May the The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER Bill was sent up to the Lords, at a late period of the thought it would have been better to have moved ' Session, and they were called upon to decide in a that the House should negative the Amendments of fortnight, on the provisions of a complicated measure, the Lords, than to propose that they &lonia ~L,e tipt which occupied the Commons the time he mentioned. to effect, by an Address to the Crown, tint which, if When sent up it w^s accompanied with the Poor carried into execution at all, ought to be accomplish- Laws' Bill, and other important measures, which re ed by the Legislature at large. Either the amend- quired deliberate consideration.' The House of Lords ments ought to have been negatived, or the provi- adopted the principle of the Bill, and most of its de sions which the Lords had struck out should have tails. Out of its three objects, they adopted tune: been embodied in a separate Bill. By the motion' and the other they did not reject, but merely post before the House they would do neither ; but if car- poned. On this state of facts, the House was now ried, it would appear to be an attempt on their part called upon to take a step, hazardous and uncom to deprive the Crown and the other House of Parlia- mon, it must be admitted, though not, he allowed, merit of their share of the Executive Authority. He unconstitutional, which, if frequently repeated, would argued thus far on the supposition that all were op. have a tendency to deprive the other branch of the posed to the amendments made by the Lords ; but Legislature of all power of enacting laws, and to vest he suggested it might be found the most convenient it exclusively in the Commons. He did not deny the course to adopt them, and to institute that inquiry right of the House to proceed by Address to the which the Bill as returned to them would sanction, Crown, when the Lords refused to concur in their mea and afterwards found another measure on that in- sures, but he thought this proceeding should only be quiry, which might probably meet with the concur- resorted to in cases of great importance and urgency. rence of the other branch of the Legislature. Mr. BROUGHAM in reply, observed, that the Mr. JOHN SMITH was convinced that it was im•• Bill had been so changed in the Lords, that he could possible for that House, or the Government, or any not scarcely recognize his own offspring. He wished body of men in the country, to put an end to the exist- at first to move to negative the Lords Amendments, ence of abuses in the administration of charitable in which lie could have succeeded, but he distrusted funds, unless the House should determine, which he own judgmeet, and though his Bill was mutilated, knew they would not, to turn a deaf ear to the c u m- as it still contained something good, he had resolved plaints of all who were likely to be affected by the to adopt it. The Bill could not have been introduced inquiry. In the Bill there was a clause for excepting. sooner. The long space which die Honourable Gen the Schools of that respectable body of men called tleman (Mr. Canning) had mentioned, as occupied Quakers from the proposed inquiry. He had the au. with deliberating upon it, principally consisted of the thority of some leading members of that Society to adjournment during the Easter holidays. He tried, say, that they not only did not object to being inclu.. during the holidays, with the assistance of a learned ded in it, but that they should rejoice in having an friend of the Chancery-bar, to make it as perfect as opportunity of shewing in what manner their schools possible. They took for their model the Bill for ap were conducted. This conduct was natural, and pointing the Naval Commissioa of Inquiry, which proved that that respectable Sect had nothing to fear, had been unnaturally renounced by some of its and the feeling they had evinced on this occasion was parents because it had been too effective in producing that in which every honest man must participate. An the Tenth Report. That Tenth Report, and that Bill, inquiry was called for by all the respectable part of were as satisfactory as all the Noble Earl's Naval vic the community, and this, though it might be delayed, tories, and they had been made the model of the pre he was satisfied nothing could ultimately avert. sent measure. He denied that.he had been actuated Sir F. BURDETT said, if any thing could have by any Wish to create a difference between the two boon added to the unanswerable speeches of the Houses of Parliament ; his conduct had been through- Learned Gentleman on this subject, which had come out most conciliatory, 'and he had even taken the home to every heart, it would have been supplied pains to communicate with Noble Lords in another in the speech they had last heard. He expressed sur- place, in order to learn what were their wishes upon prise at the mutilated state in which the Bill had the subject—(!Wear, Hear.) been returned to them from the House of Lords, and The House then divided on the previous question. The mm at the opposition which it had encountered from the hers 3ware For Mr. Brougham's Motion Chief Judge in Equity in the country—(hear, hear) Against it 54 He confessed it was impossible for him to pretend to When we were re-admitted into the Gallery, the so much candour as to suppose such opposition SPEAKER was putting the question on the other mo , founded in motives which any fair, candid, equitable, tion of Mr. BROUGHAM, which was negatived with and honourable mind could suggest to itself. There out a division. was no property in the country so much entitled to Mr. BROUGHAM then said, that before he moved the protection of the Legislature as that which it that the House concur in the Amendments of the had been the object of that Bill to snatch froth pl Lords, he wished to give notice, that early in the next deters. He could wish this inquiry had been kept in Session he should move for leave to bring in a Bill the hands of a Committee, and never have been to appoint, if possible, the same Commissioners to in made the subject of a Bill, as he had more confi- quire into all abuses of Charities, by which the pru dence in a Committee of that house, when its labours perty of the poor had. been dilapidated and plun were conducted under the eye of a Gentleman of dered, by those who met with the sanction of sonic. such talents and activity as bad been displayed by the fellow-feeling of others, and the protection of. the Learned Gentleman on this occasion—(licar.)— many, as was obvious from the vote of this night.l In the present instance, an extinguisher could not be That vote would, no doubt, give great satisfaction to put on the business altogether, but it had been en- persons high in the State, and to many Members of deavoured to make it as great a source of patronage, ' both Houses, who were unwilling that these abuses' and of expense to the public, as possible. He corn- should be investigated. Ile put it to the candour of mcnted in strong terms on the foul and gross abuses the Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Bathurst), if, proved to exist, and on the pernicious consequences after what had passed, should the Lords' Amendmeat which must result from them s and supporting the he negatived, he would not support an Address to :notice, upressed a hope that the Objeit of the Bill , the Throe_ that the great object might be attained. t. Mr. CAi.irtiga cpb ais order . j A~ese questloii before the House, though the 1441 " ° ' Gentlentan, in order to introduc e his led some Members to imagine disk he would concluded with a motion. He apprehended t' Honcitirable Gentleman had ma right to dictate to the House, or to any Honourable Member course he ought to pursue: Mr. BROUGHAM denied that he had any with to dictate; it was quite absurd that such had been his intention—(Order, He would not allow any Gentleman of the. or of the Board of Trade, to debar him from dinary courtesy of putting a question-0: Mr. R. WARD said, that he was one whom the Honourable Gentleman had defamed slandered—( Order, order.) Mr. LAMBTON, to make this cony , -: regular, moved an adjournment. Honour bees could now state what they wished; The SPEAKIiIt put the question: Mn ROBINSON observed, that, at he referred to as of the Board of Trade, he state, that he had interrupted the Hon. (Mr. Brougham) merely to indtice him himself half a minute, while his Noble Fi Castlereagh) moved the concurrence in amendments, is it did not appear that such was likely to come from the other side of - ..1_ _ He would not be put down by the Honourable denten at any time, and certainly not on occasion, Mr. BROUC II AM replied, that, when he was only about to put a question, an courtesy allowed to all Members. • Before ceeded he desired to know what an lion. opposite (Mn Ward) meant by. assertins (Mr. Brougham) had slandered and defamed he was anxious to give his much Injured all the healing balm in his powers Mr. WARD insisted that the Hon. MI only pursued his usual course of waning , those by whom he had been opposed ind• He (Mr. Ward) was one of those who voted majority against the Honourable Gentleman position, and the Honourable Gentleman than insinuated that the object of that majority to screen the guilty ; such statements were defama• tory and slanderous. Mr. BROUGHAM wds about to speak, WARD asked him if he rose to explain—(,,, Mr. BROUGHAM protested against the of the Hon. Gentleman, who seemed so take upon himself duties that belonged Speaker. He begged to ask, what course Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Bathurst) intended t. the Lords' amendments 'should be negatived Mr. BATHURST contended that the H. tleman had no right to make such demands Mr. BROUGIIAM referred to some pr munication which had taken place between Mr. Bathurst, contending that the latter '- ted that if the Lords' amendments were he would concur in an address. Mr. BATHURST intisted that the HUT , . was mistaken : the Honourable Mcmher undertaken to move the tong” Mr. CANNING confirmed this statement 'after a few other remarks, the question the Lords Amendments, and they were Mr. Ir.ot•uHast persisting in the notice he Upon the motion of I.nrd CASTLEREAe ordered t ). ,at the House at its rising until Friday. PANTHEON TREATRE. Sir FRANCIS BUR DETI rose to sub, tion to the House scspecting a Petition of the Proprietor of the Pantheon Theatre, been presented on a former day. His obi appointment of a Committee to inquire ii gations contained in that Petition, and he that no time ought to be lost. The Petitit. obtained a licence from the Lord Cham._ commence performance at the Pantheon Tlteatre,had laid out a very large sum in putting the . such a state as to make it fit for the recep company. The whole was conducted by . ut such a manner as gave'great satisfaction who attended the performances. In the - ever, of Isis prosperity, an injunctio n by the Lord Chamberlain to discontinue trical representations. Mr. Cundy had sums to the amount of between 50 and and without any reason being assigned the i was issued. Mr. Cundy had been harassed nal informations, and had been totally , rested, and put into jail. where he remained or four years, and at last was liberated under solvent Act, and all this without any reason caprice of the Lord Chamberlain, by wl. junction was issued, which reduced this Gem an instant to beggary. Notwithstanding of the Session, he thought this matte r m i quired into before the prorogation c f Par' One day he conceived would be sufficient the business, and he apprehended that could be made to the inquiry. He had in declaring that this was a most cruel, just, and improper exercise of the power Chamberlain. He concluded with movin) appointment of the Committee. Lord YARMOUTH said, that by some , which he could not account, the petitioner t.tined a license from Lord John Thynne. formances brought forward were regli Operas. This was sufficient to show the rc proceedings against Mr. Cundy, who was specnlator. Mr. JOHN CALVERT said, the inqi for was quite unnecessary. Mr. BATHURST said, that the present been inquired into before the Privy Counci been found very complicated. Lord JOHN THY NNE said, he had any license to Mr. Cundy for perform. tll, -which had bean brought forward at t General THORNTON expressed hi: the Pantheon Theatre had not been alto , sent Italian Operas, as the subscribers house would not have the same cause discontented. Mr. PETER MOORE thought man; gations contained in the petitions were op fact.. , Sir FRANCIS BURDETT obsci vc.l i ' I \ . kit iiis iia • Hcirtmurable • 1, , Cetivet, hit • , 4 would have ded that the lactate either u miser, what i . l entertained to suppose r, order.)— 1 Le Ordnance,' From the or. I 'Order.) 14° ne or those 1I lefamed and •.I -sation more It-able Mom = I ie had been I , to wished td I , • Gentleman 1 to restrain riend (Lord I '• the Lords' I I .ch a motion f the House. urable Ger.- 1 t the present , i. , 1 , interrupted, an ordinary . I lore he pru- . Gentleman I no' that he .0 amed biro ; . 1 reputation 1 !ember had i 1 lj , riot against r • defeated.— L i ' l i •oted in the 111 i' r eman's pro- -1 ' i i' ' i had more 1 i najority was • ' ere delama. ~ . . , I k, when Mr; . -(co/fation)? ' , . the conduct ; a anxious to only to the 1 1 ' se the Right Ito take, if ved ? i • , e Hon. Gen- mcli of hilts. •'• srivate corn. :en him ...-.ld • had admit. e negatived, . ons Member I had hints :4 n the lA.rds' qt. • :einent : and VMS Exit on 6 agreed to, to had Oven, 1 I . ACII, rt %vas i ' ' ' do adjourn 1 übmit a nic . I Mr. Cum( v, !, which had . Sject was the into the all?. • 1 he conceived I .ioner having smberltin to • Theatre, - had f` t Theatre into eption of th e , y 31r. Cund v , i' :tion to tho s e 4' • midst, how- was issued 1 f t e these then- td expended 11 ~ i ' and 60,00(4. ! .. he injunction sed by crimi- y ruined, a". •ned for three 1 ' i under the In- : • I , !ason but the whom the in. Gentleman in ... g the lateness might he in. , ?arliament.— , • • ' ' L. , at° conclude . • 1 • :no objection ', '1 I no difficulty t 1, harsh, un- 4 •r of the L or d Doing for the , • A t ne means, for - , )ner had ob- • I ° 4 se. The pe r - . , I. ' i I gitlar Italian reason of the C - AS a very rash . , . . . • •quiry mo ve d „ lent case had 4 :I .• mcil, and had p c t % 4' d not granted lances such as tllePantheen. is regret that I k Sl i i • ' ° iwcd to repro- to the Opera- I t e then to be I k. sy of the alle • - c not founded ~• lin reriy, thqt . (