Star. — London, England, 1828-04-04 00:00:00

I I 3ht%•A s ~` pert qf a Member whose morn was phoned against, to Nth actually seated him in thi s Hoge, the next change which he should propose would be in the con stitution of the Committee. At present 100 Members mast be present before the Committee could be drawn that Committee consisted of 49, from which 13 were to remain on the list—each party striking off one in torn, with the exception of. the nominees. Now he con. sidered the number 49 unnecessary in the first instance. He knew the object originally had been to assimilate ft to a Jury; but then he would not. as in some Jury cases, propose that Members should be struck off on cause assigned, because, to say the least of it, it would be highly invidious; and he considered it would be quite sufficient to follow up the Special Jury system, and have 33 drawn and 11 to try the merits of the case. As to the appointment of-nominees, he had reason to believe they were not originally intended as parties in the case, but were called upon to secure the greater ex perience. Each party named a Member to fill that situation, and it must be evident that they never should have been mixed up with the proceedings. In this opi nion he was greatly strengthened by the authority of Mr.(now Lord.) Grenville; and it was obvious to every Hon. Gentleman who had sat for any length of time its Parliament, that the conduct of nominees was not al 'rays unobjectionable—they often attended the consul ratio's of each party —and such being the case, the /east course would be to do away with them altogether: However nominees might be selected, be was afraid of the abuses which Might follow from their appointment, and therefore the most convenient step would be to do them away. He did not mean to extend the proposed regulations to the Members for Ireland, at all eventa fee the present ; and having thus briefly stated the pro-1 posed alterations, he now moved for leave to bring in a Bill to consolidate the Laws on Controverted Elections of Members to serve in Parliament. Mr. CROKER wished to say one word on the sub -lest of nominees. He agreed in general with every , thing that had fallen from the Right Hon. Gentleman as to the theory of that (Ace ' and particularly when he remembered that the Iris Parliament, though they adopted the rest of the Grenville Act, excluded the clause relative to nominees, and on experience and pray tic, found great advantage in having excluded it. Another point to which he wished 'to call the attention of the Right Hon. Gentleman was, the practice of ask leg witnesses whether they did not belong to some branch of the public service, after they were sworn to give evidence ? Now, he knew instances in which the asking of that question had created a very paiolul feel. ing in the minds of witnesses—to prevent this he would suggest, that the question whether they belonged to the public service should be asked before the witnesses were sworn. Sir J. MACINTOSH having been more than once appointed a nominee on Election Committees, could declare from experience that be never was in such a disagreeable situation in his life as in that of nominee. He suggested to his Right Hon. Friend to give the Committee the power f choosing a Chairman from the. rest of the House. As to the reduction of the number of the Committee, he was quite in favour of it, and should approve of even a still greater reduction, as he was sure the fewness of number would tend to a greater dispatch of business; and the reduction of the number of the Committee would *Bow a reduction of the -number of Members from whom the Committee was to be balloted. Mr. BANKES could not refuse his approbation to the Measure, as he had two or three times in the course of his Pat liamentary life endeavoured to effect the abolition of nominees. He bad ever felt the greatest difficulty, leben acting as nominee, to reconcile in practise the conflicting duties of the office. The Bill would be much improved by the omission of nominees. as he woo sore the Committees would always be found to contain sul. ficient Skill and ability, independently of the aid of tr en;nees; but it was his opinion, that the number from which Election Committees were balloted should remain as it was at present. Mr. Secretary PEEL thought it very desirable that -these laws should be consolida ed, and their conflicting provisions reconciled. The House was under great ob ligations to his Right Hots. Friend for his attempt to improve them. He quite agreed in the proposal to alter the constitution of the Election Committees, and reduce the number. Eleven members would be quite sufficient for each Committee, and render it easier to appoint several Committees at the same time, an advantage not to be overlooked, when it was remembered that the whole mass of controverted election business generally fell on the House at once. namely. the first Session after a general election. That nominees shot Is! be abolished he also approved. The mixture of duties which they were celled on to perform was most inconsistent. The practise of appointing nominees doubtlessly led to create abilities and experience in particular Members. but what wee the use of that when these abilities and experience WO* directed to a wrong purpose? He did not profess to have . at all considered the subjcet, but he would beg to suggest to his Right Honourable Friend—and to his' determination on the subject he should attract great value+ —whether it might not be better if they email agree upon the choice of one, that the Committees should ap. paint each its own assessor—some person probably of competent legal experience? All be limed was, that the plan of appointing thirty-three on the list; and ghring tol the parties a power to stn ike 22 out of it, would frequently have the Committee composed of. eleven individuals totally inexperienced in all mattets requiting Legal or technical information. Sir J. MACINTOSH, in explanation, said, when he spoke of selecting a chairman from the bocl7.lf the House, he merely intended it as a matter of opsesolt. Sir G. WARIIENDER coucurred with the 'Bight Hon. Gentleman, that a Bill like that which he proposed bad become absolutely necessary. He remembered having been on a Committee, whose decision was le. versed by the Dun of Session in Scotland, in cense. quence of the Commit tee being unacqsainted generally with Scotch law. an Assessor had been appointed, or some Gentleman skilled in the law were allowed to at-ist them, no such occunence would have taken place. Mr.CALCIIAFT expressed himself ik favour of the abolition of nominees, and though helad itftent served in that office, be would by no means plead/guilty to all the charges which had been brought against them. Election Committees were usually appointed early in the Session, and the general ob)ect seemed to be to istioduce the youn g Members Into the Committees, no doubt with a view to give then* experience in the duties of Committees—(Hrir,and a laegb.) He could' not agree to the appointnisat of Assessors,. neither did he wish for the introduction of attire *Myers than writ] tries already employed in such eases, hot's respectable, they *aisle be. With respect to theproposed !mashie of the Committee, he thought seven would answer as well as eleven ; bet be would not consent to reduce the number of 100 in the first instance. • Dr. PHILLIMOItE supported the utility of milli. noes. If intelligent counsel were allowed to attend Election Committers, he thought it would• prove of very great convenience and utility. With respect to the Scotch case just now alluded to, he could only lay, that the decision of the Committee was fully justified' by precedent. Mr. SPRING RICE said, the House should bear in mind that the decision of an Election Committee was final, if not appealed against. The constitution of such , a Committee was, therefore, of great importance. In his opinion, it was most desirable that greater light should be thrown upon the proceedings of these Com mittees. It would be quite impossible fur the Houses of Parliament to exercise their functions with aay effect, unless the country was by some means or other to understand the cause of their proceeding's; and he was convinced that the same good which resulted. from the publicity given to the proceedings of Par• liament would be produced by letting in a little more light upon the nature of Election Committees. The great sin of the Election Committees was ignorance. It was ignorance which produced almost the whole of the errors and mistakes that were apparent in their decisions. As a proof of the extent to which that igno rance sometimes proceeded, he need only mention the case of an Hon. Friend of his, at that moment a Mem ber of the House. It was his fortune to be one r•f the Committee appointed to try the merits of the Petition which am from Scotland. Upon taking the evidence of the Petitioner and going through his case, the Coin. mittee were unanimously of opinion that nothing ha•l come before them which would require them to call upon the sitting Member for any detente. The mem was, however, cleared ; and upon the Committee viding, four of them voted that the Member ought to In e his seat—(Hear) So that those very Members ot . the Committee who declared the twit of those who petitioned against his Hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen (it was a Petition against his return) to be .so detective, in point of evidence. that they thought he ought not to go into his defence, immediately after•, wards voted that he ought to lose his seat. Public.ty.' would, in his opinion, protect the Committees from such errors as these. Mr. R. COLBORNE was glad the subject had been t • ken up by the R ght Hon. Gentleman ; but I.e regretted that the provisions of the Bill were not to extend to the Men,bets for Ireland. Mr. WARBURTON gave his full support to the Bill, and wished that every publicity should be given to the proceedings of Election Committees. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that the proceedings of all Committers upon Elections were at one period allowed to be ispen to the public ; but that course was found to be so inconvenient, that it was found necessary to have recourse to a different system. Some observations had been made upon the subject of personal experience in the Metn bers of a Committee; and he really thought that such experience was extremely desirable. As an illus 'ration of the necestity of some acquaintance with the forms of proceeding upon Committees, he could say that he had once been appointed a nominee, and having throughout the whole of the discussions taken part against the person for whom he was so appointed —(hear, and a laugh), be had ri:.t been required io oc copy such a situation since —(A laugh). On another occasion he recollected a Committee, with the very best intentions to discharge their duty faithfully and purely, ruling points of evidence twice over in a different man• ncr. He believes!, indeed, that their determination a, to these masters solely tested upon the fact, whether the Lealing Counsel on either side happened to be in or out of the room at the time they were called upon to decide.—(Hear, and a laugh). Some experience, betel re, upon these matters, was absolutely necessary fair the effective discharge of the duties of any Member of Con-unitive. Mr. W. WYNN said. he was much obliged for the many suggest•ons which had been thrown out to him, and he would take care they should be attended to. II he had leave to bring in the Bill, he should propo,e the second reading soon after the holidays, and then fix a day when it could be discussed in a Committ e.— Leave granted. . .... . - Meader, then, that inch IC' held as 'a- dded to the right Pir whic PT He had N , board it said that,Vap.hllll er • objected to defending t i tir stiosin con-equence of he great expense which s 's endeVit—.bo , he disc knew of inittinces in which a - rweoluittee, without hearing Ir•-lr all iiiaence at all on the AIIJOURNWENT .....AlrigAIRS OF THE EAST. Mr. Secretary PEEL rose, pursuant to the notice he had given, to move that the House at its rising should adjourn to Monday, the 14th of April. He was aware that upon late occasions it had been usual to have a longer cessation trcm their labours; but in adverting to the state of public business, and the number of Com mittees sitting. although he was aware that in the week following the 14th of April many Members would not be present. yet he thought it would not be proper to defer their meeting later than that day. Upon the qundon being put by the SPEAKER, Sir R. WILSON said, he felt it to be his duty not to alio* the /Inuit to separate without asking the Right Hon. Gentleman one or two questirms upon a subject I f which they had already heard the most agitating de tails. and which affected the interests of persons who bad the strongest claim upon the justice of the Govern ment, and for whose protection we had pledged the oat onal honour. According to positive advices, and which. he had no doubt, were now became official, several thousand Grerks, women and ohildren, had been carried off to Alexandria by the beet of Ibrahim Pacha, and sold in the market as slaves. He under steed there were in she whole nearly sesen thiausaa4 thus dragged from their country and tb . eir Mends, wish feelings aggravated by the reflection that this misfortune happened at the moment when, as it were, the question of their future freedom had been set at ,rest for ever.—The Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Peel) bad stated, on a former occasion, that orders were is sued to prevent the removal of any portion of the Greek population. He would now ask the Right Hom Gen tleman to say how it could be explained, that, with orders of this kind to prevent the removal of ibe non-combatant population, some of the small ves sels, of which there were many in a state fit for service after the battle of Navarid, did not pre vent the commission of this 'most flagrant and cruel act of piracy ? The first question he should put to the Right Honourable Gentleman was, whether there ,had been any official advices from the Commanders of our armaments in the Levant, explaining the reason why these vessels thus loaded h a d o b taine d the free dons to pass unmolested from the Bay of Navin-ill? and. secondly, whether any. measures had been taken, either with or without the consent of our Allies, to effect the redemption of those unhappy persons, who I ad thus been dragged from their country by the basest and most execrable piracy ? This reparation was the least that Greece had a right to claim, not only from England, but from every nation of Euto that had any pretensions to civilisation sr (Herz o hear t' 111 r. Secretary PEEL begged the Honourable Oen tletnan to recollect he had stated Wore that in the year 1026, previous wills signieg of the Tensity of dit6ots df-J•l7. awl. previous to the signing of the ProtereOl4. ft was intimated, indirectly, to his Majesty's Gbeera menr, that there existed an intention to carry away * part of the population of the Mnrea, for the purpose . of consigning them to slavery in Egypt. Before, how. ever, any measures were taken to carry that intention into effect, and before, he begged to repeat, any treaties existed upon the subject of the Greeks, his Majesty's Government desired it to be distinctly declared, that they could not suffer such a proceeding, which 'shwa be regarded as an 'smite of the most ex treme rights of war; and that if the intention was attempted to be carried into execution, they were de. termined to resist it by force. No measure of the kind .Ifireatened was then attempted, and therefore it became unnecessary to resort to the employment of force. He believed, however, that the Hon. Gentleman was cot rectly informed, when he said that some portion of the . population of the Morea had been sent into slavery by" Ibrahim, on board of those vessels which escaped from the Bay of Navarin after the battle. Instructions had been sent out to the Admiral to prevent the removal of any portion of the combined Turkish and Egyptian' fleets, both before and after the time of the battle, if by that removal they meditated a renewal of hostilities against the Greeks; but of course, if they intended to remove their forces from the Bay of Navarin, either to Alexandria at to Constantinople, everrfacility could have been afforded them for that pirpose. It is uanece.saty to bay, that by that removal the forces only were meant, and 1..0t AO% portion of the Greek popula tion. On the 27th or 28th •cemtrer, a part, however, of the fleet, to the nurntre- r f 45 sail, including 17 sail which at rived in the poi t after the battle, set sail for Alex andria,having beard th • ilisabl.d and sick and wound.. ed soldier ',together with comae ishmen and childrensWhat •the number of the,e capticei'srhis fie could nat pretend to say ; and, isidee.i; the' acCotiota varied to Much, hi did not think be ought to attempt to state any thing upon the sohject, until they had some better informa tion. The" on. Gentleman. however; iiiiriffeleliefid them to b: 7,000. He might, however, state that he had heard, an ..1 as he thought upon very good, and even high 4uth, rity,that the num bet did not exceed 60f) women and children. When his Majesty's Government received an account of ti.is escape of the remnant of the fleet, having on board these captives, they made a commu nication to the Admiral, and instituted a full'inquirt into the whole transaction. He might, indeed, say that the whole subject was now uncler the consideration of his Majesty's Government, although, from the present state of that inquiry, he thought it better to ab,tain at this moment from any further explanation. It was, he thought, sufficient to assure the Honourable Gentleman, that the attention of his Majesty's Government we been directed to the subject, althqugh he felt that at the present moment he could not state the results of their, inquiries without prejudice to the public service. Sir F. BURDETT said, that having a very strong • feeling upon this subject, tie must say that what. had falen from the Right Hon. Gentleman was very seas , ' factory. It showed that the attention t f Government was alive to the situation of Greece, and that their thanks were due to his Hon. Friend , not only on aca count of the interest which he took in that question, but alto fur having given an opportunity to the Right Honourable Gentleman to make these expla nations. He trusted that the Government would take such steps as' would 'be necessary to restore the persons who had been torn away from their country, as well as to ascertain in what manner the act was accomplished. He did not sup ose that it could be attributed to any defective dis charge of his duty on the part of the Gallant Officer commanding our fleets in the Mediterranean. Neither, he hoped, was it to be attributei 'to the lukewarmness with which the Government of this country at one time regarded the glorious achievement which that gallant. Admiral performed, He was ready to declare his full concurrence in the 'Deny of London, not only on ac count of its hum •nity, bat as t:.e most wise and prudent , obey which this country could pur,ue. He thought the Government were acting preperly in determining to suppot it, aad he would not shrink from taking his share in the responsibility of supporting them. . • Sir R. WILSON asked whether the number of ships of war left after the battle amounted to 47 Mr. Secretary H USKISSON said, that the facts stated by his Right Hon. Friend were these—The number of ships which sailed from Navarin having on board slaves,. wounded sailors, and sick soldiers, was forty-five.— Pt these 17 had arrived at Navarin subsequently to the battle, and the rest. about thirty, armed vessels; were in the bay at the time of the attack. The Hon. Baronet had said that it was posable that the unfortu nate escape of those vessels had been influenced by the lukewarmness of the Government in properly noticing the services of the Gallant Admiral. When the Hon. Baronet looked at the dates, and saw that the ships took their departure unmolested, and, as it would seem, un noticed, in the month of December last, it was impos sible to suppose that any lukewarmness of the Govern. ment could have existed, in as much as the Government was not then in existence. He should not say more upon the subject, after it had been stated by his Right Hon. Friend that an investigation bad been undertaken. Sir J. MACINTOSH said, .that in the year 1825, a project had been conceived by Ibrahim Riche, of car rying off the whole population of the Morea into sla very in Egypt, and repeopling the country with Arabs. As soon as that intention had been knoWn at St. Pe tersburgh, a declaration of the strongest character `sad been issued, stating that the first attempt to execute it would be held to justify the most decided measures, on the part of the Powers of Europe, for its prevention. The abominable outrage now, bi which so many unoffending women and children had been carried into captivity, seemed to be a sort of remains of the project of 1825 ; and not only merited the promptest notice by this country, with reference to what had been undertaken by the Treaty of London, but also on account of the audacious insult offered by it to all those Christian States who, in 1825, had an nounced that the first attempt to execute it would be met by chastisement or resistance. He could not doubt that the inquiry, in which the Right Honour able Secretary for the Home Department stated the Government to be engaged, was an inquiry as to the most convenient measures for restoring tlie t. happy persons who had been the victims of this piralic out rape to their country, and he truste.l that every effort would be made, not only to disclaim any acquiescence in such an act on the part of England, but• to re• pair to the sufferers, as far as possible, the conse quences of it. With respect to the greargeneral question connected with this subject, he should at present abstain as far as possible from making any comments on it, although it was a topic upon which he and those who thought with him observed silence with difficulty ; and how much longer it would be possible for them to persevere in a silence which cost them so * much- effort, and which 'might, perhaps, be liable to miseoip affliction, it was impostible for Mai ticsaf; - • It was :little extraordinary. that while the other Powers, which' were parties to the Treaty of London, had des dared their intentions plarnly, England alone should refuseto speak. In France, the lull explanation if M. Peyronnet, lett no question as to what the pi , licy of that country would be. Bosnia, in a communication which every one knew was substantiallp official; though not formally so, had avowed to all the world the ala. titres of her policy, as she was at this very moment pro. bahly on the eve of executing it. Even the Turks them. selves, in their hatti scheriff, had made known the whole course of fraud and delusion which they bad b een peac• tisog upon all the Powers of Europe, eve. for a series of rears, and which they had the audacious folly to avow now, even in the face of their most powerful enemy ; and yet the intention, or views of the English Government were not yet communicated to Parliament. Und e r these 'circumstances, he thought it right to give no+ lice, that shoal); after the recess, unless he was pies vented by some Message from the Crown, or intimas tion of the course at policy contemplated on the part of Ministers, he should feel it his duty to call the atteetiod of the House to the situation and duties of this country under the Treaty of the 6th *f July. He should do this in a manner calculated to impute blame to no one. and perhaps, it no officid intimation was received is the interim, it would be the most con ve: - .ient mode of bring. ing ou a discussion for all parties: it would enable him (Sr J. Macintosh) and his friends to state at length what their impressions were upon the subject, and afford Ministers an opportunity of making. those disclosures which had already been made by Turk y, Fiance, mad Russia: The Hon. Member concluded by declaring, that the longer he reflected upon the TresSty, in question, the more firmly'he was convinced of its justice, lawful* Slesfit )141d 4 Wisdram._ • ;•• Mr. BRIGHT said he had also been waiting with the hreAro anxi ety for a declaration •of the policy which is Majesty's Government meant to adopt. and be had now to express his hope that they would cat suffer what _etas raid on that 46 of the House to bike t em to place the country in a state of war --(Hear 1) He trusted that they 'would neither permit that, ni.r the slate ot ti.e go tor tupate pet sons ia the Meditet r anean, to induce them to do what they could not hereafter a sw r to the c 'entry, and the consequences of which oust he drea !tut as they w. re incalculable—(Cheer.). With regard the policy ,of. the Treaty, he held an opinion very different from that of the H n. and Learned Member who preceded him, and. when the proper time arrived, he should be ready to 6clare and to maintain it. • Mr. Secretary PEEL said, he was sure there must be one universal feeling, th.t this was not the time for ertcring upon such a question as that which the Hon. and Learned Member had opened, arid that lie should best discharge his duty to the Crown by resisting any provocation whatever to enter into a premature discus. siren of his Majesty's views and intentions—(Cheers). The Honourable and L-arntd Gent!einan had rather embarrassed him by the construction which he had put upon a part of his previous explanation. He had said, that the investigraiun entered into by the Government uld only be with a view to restore that part of the Greek population which had been carried from their homes and sold ;ato slavery. Now, if be let that observation pass unnoticed, it might appear as if he acquiesced, and he, therefore thought it necessary to re- peat, that he only stated' the facts tb ,t such instructions had been given, and he meant no reflection upon any one, as, if acted - upon, would have prevented the sailing of the ships with those unfortunate people on board. But it should be remembered, in justice to our Naval Commanders, that the event of the battle greatly increased the difficulty of carrying those in structi,!ns into effect, so as to prevent the manoeuvre; 'but the instructions were, to prevent the sailing of the ships for any purpose but the conveyance of the troops front the Morea. All be had said was, that an inquiry bad been instituted with a view to ascertain the circum.tances under which :hose instructions had failed of being executed. As to the num ber of the Egyptian ships, there were four frigates, tight cor vettes. eighteen brigs, and fifteen transports. The account which he had received from a Naval Officer stationed at Alexandria differed from that of the Honourable Member, making the num ber of sick and wounded soldiers brought there by the fleet 2,000, sand also mentioning that six hundred women and children had been brought and sold as slaves. What measures were to be adopted it was impo3sible for him to s.ly, in the absence of more certain Information, or what would he the fate of the unfortunate persons. It they had been actually sold in the market and passed into the hands of individuals, their being private property would materially alter the case frnm what it would have been if they had been met upon the seas. He bolted no other construction would be put upon what he had said, which amounted or ly to thi.—tkat as soon as informatlottwas received by the Government they ordered , an investigation of the circum.taticas under which the vessels bad ' escaped our Beet. Sir JOSEPH YORKE bore testimony to the disabled state d our veriels after the battle of Navarin ; and was happy to hest that whatever may have been the causes which led to the removal of the Greeks from the Mum, that ■o blame or PegUgesee what- soever Was imputable to our Officers engaged in the gallant actioa of Navarin. The question of adjournment to Monday, the 14th of April, was then put and carried. MATIR COMPANII Ar 07 LONDON. Sir F. SURDS rr inquired whether the commission on the water question was still sitting, and when it might be expected us report ? • Mr. PEEL said, that front a personal communication with the Gentlemen engaged, he believed the Report would certainly be ready about the 21st of the present month. • Sir I. YORKE thought, that the Commission looked very like a job. , That Ilr. Telford, Mr. brande, and Mr. Rout, should have been dx months examining whether there was a 'ancient supply of water for the town, and whether that water was of a wholesome quality, seemed to him inconceivable. Mr. PEEL said that the Commissioners had not been employed so long as six months; and in addition to the quality of the water, they had to examine the books and affairs of the Watts. Companies. The Commissioners were Gentlemen of the highest possible chi ra'eter, dud had engaged in the employment from no desire of pecuniary gain. Mr. HU ME moved for a series of Returns, relating to the ex tent of Arrest and Imprisonment for Debt In Scotland, during the last five years. The Hon. Member also moved for a Return of the Deductions from Merchant Seamen, on account of Greenwich Hos pital, during the same period. • Dr. PEI I Ll.l MORE moved the second reading Of the renry• Witnesses' Indemnity Bill. After a few words from Dr. PHILLIMORE and Mr. Barony, is explanation, the Bill was read a second time; and having suttee quently been cat ried through Its other stem, waepassed. On the motion of Mr. G. BAUCIU, the Boman Catholic Land Tax BM was re-censmitted, and the Report ordered to be takes into furthers consideration on Monday, the 14th of April, sod to be printed. Mr. W. W. WYNN brought in the Election Regulation 1111 It was read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time co the 14th of April. and to be printed. SALMON REGULATION SILL. Mr. H. DRUM MOND:weed the second reading of this 1114. Mr. FERGUSON wished, as the blanks were not b led up, to know when the " closing time" would commence, and whether lt would be general all over Scotland ? Mr. H. DBUMMON 0 replird,rbat It would commence es die lit of September. and end on the Ist of February. According to the present law of Scotland, the closing tlnus was the same In all parts of the country. The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be com• tnitted on the 2d of May. Hr. H. DRUMMOND brought up the Report of the Cum mittee on the ditties for Card and Dice Stamps. The Resolutiom were agreed to, and a Bin ordered to be brought do ?utmost thetteoe.-Adjoarded a graostro to Rum.