Star. — London, England, 1802-05-06 00:00:00

PARLIAMENTARY PROCEZDINOS. HOUSE OF LORDS, WEDNESDAY, MAY s. Load Kewrou was (worn 3nJ took his feat, nn faeceeding to the Peerage, on the detnife of bi; Father, the late Lord. The bills upon the Table wer:: fu. - warded in their feveral Rages. your private Bills were brought vp front the Commons by different C.:yak:nen and read a tuft tir 7C. Laid LAND, rrCV".OIIS to Olt- ():,ler of the Day being read, called tit the recoil- Rion of the Ifiitife, the notice he had given come time futre, of an teat •.(led hi:km exprelnve of a 'degree of eenfure upon thofc rts, who, by their condudt, hang ‘vithiteti the blettyk,. of Peace cram the Country. I, that itifention Ee filll per: . .nekl; and tine of hi, objedts was in riirac that Flot.fe from the imputation of anproving the Prae,t, and at tht- fame h ing confilitreiito approve a long pro t rde to:: War. He c:ot..!d, how..ivcr, eekr his propoiltion upon Ibis ftihjea until the pending iit:cl.;•.n , r; the Dennititre Treaty was eifp )fCI! ttt, and ut.til the Houk had esprefied its opinion of that .ittifurei ;haat they rep cit what ht intended to fropofe, it r:,,uld it:r.let. a clit.i.ree of eenbirs upon the Peace: he however tiretitid it in. unsb. nt an Lim to aftiird the °ppm- timiry .o I (NIS:. ts, rcLue it ,Saradler in that refpeet, and be Ewe l i- no: ie... to Avuid poffible im • yoticiln of t,kin- by farprife. He took occafion to obLrve, tl. c the pr,xluSti , ui of certa'm Papers would be Deter- Lay fur the compl.ri: elucidation e; hi, fobjeL e t, and particularly aulec, - tcd tr. copics of ductumatts rcfrraing catain Negotiations Meth Portiit,L Duke of Mo NTILItK fald a kw words relative to what had falkir from the Noblo /3 ...Hurling to the late Admini ilr.ition, and ol.feivtd, that he confident the rank of the inv:iligation would be approval of their conduct I.nri Sm.,: k.K have notice of hit intention to move for eer. Papers relative to tite bland of MAN, which be Pied for r.ext, on which day their Lonithips were ordered to be THE PRINCE OF ORANGE. The Earl of CAR!.ISLE rofe, [militant to a no 1, tice lie had given, to call the attention of the Houle , to the deplorable situation in which the late Stadt- holder of Holland and his Family were left, in confeciaence of the Ihameful defortion of his inte seas on the part of Great Br:t tin ; after the num berlefs intlances of friendthip which he had fhewn towards Great Britain, and after having continued as her faithful Ally, until he was driven out of his own country. Degrading as the Definitive Treaty was to this country, and fraught as it was with mifchief and ruin, there was no part of it snore difgraceful than that by which the illuftri °us Foote in quellion was palled over without any kind of ftipnlation that could fecure to it a compenfation for its lotres, or relieve it from the diltrefres it was now involved in. On this fubjea he could not view the conduit of Adminiftration in any other light than that of a low fsvindling trick, by which the Pi ince of Orange had been de prived of his property. After having ceded to Great Britain conliderable poifeilions in the Eati and Weft Indies, after thefe having been in a man ner kept in trait for him, they were all at once given up to the French, or the Batavian Repub lic (for it Was all the fame) as the price of an in glorious Peace ; and for all thefe poffettions—for the immenfe property he polfeffed in Holland, and which had been confifcated avowedly on account of his attachment to this country—the Prince of Orange was to receive no other compenfation than promile made by France that he (hook' be in :ronified. The indignity and infult offered him, even in the manner in which he was defcribed,was a point that ought not to '"e patted over without notice. This was infult added to injury, and no chance left him of recovering auy part of his property. Where was this indemnity to come from' It was already agreed upon between Hol land and France that the former !Wald pay nothing, although the was in podiffion of all the property belonging to the Prince. The indemni fi:ation could not come from Spain. There was as little chance of its being obtained iu France or Germany. It was the bounden duty of. his Ma y:l4'6 Government to have aieertained even the foarces front which this was to come. He was k e p : of to hear the Noble Secretary of State declare on the preceding evening that he was difappointed with regard to the Prince of Orange. The decla ration did credit to his heart, and was a proof at hall that the juflice of that Prince's claim v.-as ac knowledged by Government. His Lordfhip then adverted to the feparate Convention fecretly en teied into by the French and Batavian • Minifiers in a private cot net of the room, at the very mo ment when the Nt , ble Marquis, whole great name he was furry to tic atilsed to the Treaty, confider eti every thing as faiisfaaorily fettled. His obje& now was, if pollible, to obtain a copy of this fcpa rate agreement, and for that purpofe he would move That an humble Addrefs be indented to his Majeily, praying, that he would be pleated to communicate to this Honfe copies of all feparate Conventions entered into by any of the parties who iipted the Definitive Treaty at Amiens, and which had been communicated to his Majelly.' Lord PELHAM laid, he was forry not to have it in his power to comply with the Noble Lord's Motion, becaufe his Majetly's Government had not received any fuels communication as that which the Noble Lord desired to have laid before the Houle. The faith of France had been pledged to fulfil the article in favour of the Prince of Orange ; and he was fare that would be done, al though lie mall again false had been difappointed he innkr:lood that nothing more had been obtained in his favour. _ The Earl of Cr.r.Lt?LE evpreffed his furprife at the Noble Lord's reply, becaufe though he could not have procured a copy of the Convention in queflion, yet furely the Noble Lord, as Secretary of State, could have ordered the proper perfon at Paris to have demanded a copy of it, and to have tradmitted It to his Majefly's Miniliers. His Lord fhip took notice of the lingular expreffion made ufe of by the Noble Secretary of State, in the comfit of the preceding evening's debate, viz. that he ov:ned he had beta di/apple/a, in miff& to procuring a better fee:nrity for a full and adequate compenfation to the Prince of Orange and his ad herents, for their refpedlive loffes. Surely the Noble Lord, from the official authority he was clothed with, might have &reeled the Noble Ne gociator on the part of Great Britain, to have in ft ilea on a fuller and more explicit and I:gist - At - try article than the itstii Artkh that now flood in the Definitive Treaty, frs he was perfuaded that the Noble Marsittis,if he had been aware that Inch a Convention would have been ;utcred iirto. as Ho/land and France, would not have faltered the honour of the Britifh charafter to have been (Mined, by a deferticn of the interefts of the Prince of Orange and his adherents, in dire& violation of the good faith -of this country, and its indil penfible duty. The Marquis CORNWALLIs immediately rote to defend his own conduit, and laid he could not conceive that there was any ground to fulpea that the lath Article of the Definitive Treaty would not be fclemnly fulfilled. Neither could he con ceive that a feparate agreement, entered into by two of the contra&ing parties to the Definitive Treaty by themfelves, as it were in their clofet, without the concurrence or content of the other contra&ing parties, could polflbly be liable to be confidered - as affeding the due execution of a Treaty, for which the good faith of all the four contra&ing parties were pledged. With regard to his having deferted, or fuffered the interefis of the Prince of - Orange and his adherents to be deferted, he difdained the imputation ; he had deferted no interefts that this country was bound in honour to maintain, and he had not the fmalleft doubt that 1 a full and ample compenfation would be procured for the Prince of Orange and his adherents. Lord GRENVILLE fully agreed with the Noble Earl near him, as to the indignity and injury of fered to the Prince of Orange, whole rights this Country molt fhamefully abandoned at the very time when France was claiming freedom and retii tution of property for traitors in every part of the, world. His Lordfhip having rifen to (peak feveral times in the courfe of the debate, contended that the Treaty of Peace itfelf was very different from that which he and the late Minifters hid laid down as the balls of the Negotiations at Lille. The LORD CHANCELLOR faid, that fo far from there being fuch a difference as that Rated by his Noble Friend, when he advifed his Majefty to ree to the prefent Treaty, he did fo, not fo much from his own judgment, as from the deference in which he held the opinion as well as the talents of his Noble Friend, whole projed at the Negociations at Lifle, was nearly followed in the late Prelimi nary Treaty. With refped to the motion imme diately before the Houk, he muff confider the agreement entered into between feveral Powers in the fame manner as au agreement between indi• viduals. The aat they may have agreed upon would not be altered by any arrangement private. ly made between any of the parries, after the agreement was entered into. Four individuals in this country, agreeing to any legal itillrument, were bound in law by fuch covenant, notwitla (landing that two of them might privately agree with refpeat to themfelves to font* alteration in the general agreement. In the fame manner the four contracting parties to the Definitive Treaty were all equally bound by the law of nations to fulfil it, and it could in no manner be affeded by what two of them might do feparately. Spain was as much bound as Holland to fee the Article for indcmni. fying the Prince of Orange carried into effed ; land he had no doubt but that the indemnification would be made. In his opinion the prefent dia cuffion could anfwer no purpofe whatever. It could not ferve the Prince of Orange, but on the contrary render his claim more infecure, and there. fore he could not approve of the conduat of the Noble Earl in bringing it forward. Lord GRENVILLE made a warm reply to this, and faid, if the Noble Lord (whom he would Rill call his Noble and Learned Friend, though fome of his arguments bore of late not the molt friendly complexion) had Peen the private and unprinted papers relative to the negotiation at Lille, and not fpoken from the hfformation of others, he would not have Rated what he had juft laid relative to the Proid at Lille, which was far from being accurate. —this produced a long explanatory converfation between the Noble and Learned Lord and Lord GRENVILLE, the former repeating what he faid be fore, to fliew that he had not in an unqualified manner aliened that the Projet at Life did not con tain any collateral fecurity to the Prince of Orange for a full compenfation, but,. as far as he then re colleated, he believed that it did not ; and, after many affurances of his high refped and diem for the Noble Lord, declared that he had not fpoken upon the authority of the private and unprinted papers, but from the printed papers on the fubjed of the Pr4et of 1797, long (*wee laid on thcir Lord fliips"Fable. Lord GRENVILLE replied, and the LOAD CHAN. CVLLOR • did the fame. Lord /Luck:LAND, in a fpeech of fome length, acknowledged his regret that a more fatisfaanry article had not been obtained as a fecurity for the compenfation to he made to the Prince of Orange, than the r Sth of the Definitive Treaty ; he difliked both the fubltance and the exprellion of that ar ticle ; he writhed to have teen the means of making the compenfation, the amount of it, the fond from which it was to be taken, defcribed explicitly in an article upon the fubjeat. But he was aware that great allowance was to be made far a negotiator, and to whom great indulgence was to be (hewn, becaufe he knew from his own experience in diplo. macy how much negotiators were obliged to con cede in order to obtain a favourite object. He fpoke high of the claims of the Prince of Orange on this country, from what fell within his own knowledge during the four years he had fpent in Holland as a Minifter for this country, juft previ ous to his leaving which the French army were within feven miles of the Hague. Diffittisfied, however, as he was with the Definitive Treaty, he derived fame confolatiop from the Noble Marquis's dialaration, that he had no doubt but that the 18th article would be folemnly fulfilled by the con traaing parties. The Marquis CORNIVALLIs explained that he had laid, if the faith of nations, publicly and foremnly Pledged, was to be relied on. Lord Palmas( faid that, though he wifhed as much as any man that a full and ample compenfa tion lhould be procured for the Houfe of Orange, yet it ought not to be forgotten that this country had done a.great deal for Holland in t 787 and during the late war, and that it was not our caufe tingly that the Prince of Orange and his adhereuts rilqued fo much for, but that of our Allies. __ fomething like fwindling, ri vg difpofed of the territories of the Prince of Orange delivered by him into our hands in truft to hold for him, Lord HOBART denied that the Dutch Colonies which we had obtained had been delivered into our bands by the Prince of Orange or by his means ; he had himfelf, his Lordthip raid, been the perfon to receive the anfwer fent by the Governors of the Dutch Colonies to the letters they had received in the Prince's name, and thofe anfwera to all thofe letters uniformly Rated, that the Governors could give no reply to the orders of the Prince of Orange, dated from Hampton Court. Lord Hobart men. tioned the Governors of Berbice, Demerara, Elk. quibo, and Ceylon, as having given thefe anfwers, and contended that we obtained thofe Colonies by force of arms. Lord GRENVILLE contended that one of thole Mande was put into our hands through the means and influence of the Prince of Orange. Lord HOLLAND Paid he agreed in part with what the Noble Lords below him (Lords Grenville, Spencer, and Carlioe) had Rated, but he difagreed with them materially in fome points. He did not fo much quarrel with the 18th article in the Treaty, nor think the terming the Prince of Orange a branch of the Honfe of Natfatu, was worth fighting for. He did not believe France would at any time have allowed the Stadtholder ( who was the fervant, and not the fovereign of the Dutch Republic) the title of Prince of Orange. A converfation arofe about the article of the Prp• jet of t 797, concerning the claim to hold the Cape, Ceylon, and Cochin in our hands, by the treaty then negociating. The LORD CHANCELLOR had in fome former fpeech infinuated, that he believed the Minifters of that day would have contented to recede from a part of that claim. Lord GRENVILLE denied this, and raid he had the authority of the late Chancellor of the Exche quer, the late Secretary at War, and he had no doubt that he lhouid have the tellimony of two Noble Friends of them prelim, that it never was meant to recede in the fmallelt degree from the whole of that claim. _ _ _ _ _ _ . ..... ... Earl SPENCER, and the Earl of Rossi.vv, both rnfe and vouched for the truth of this declaration by the Noble Lori. At lengTh Lord CARLISLE was permitted to with draw his motion. _ _ _ Lord Hot.t.* N n recalled hie motion for the Honfe to be ftimmoned to-morrow, and moved an Order for Monday, on which day he agreed to make the motion he had early in the day given notice of his intention to make to•morrow.—Adjourned at eight o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS/ Sir Nat. CLARY obtained leave to bring In a Dill to enable Lit Majefty to ineorp-mate by Charter a IL.NV !durance Com pany in the county of Kent. Mr. Alderman Cu Pr is brought in a Bill for better fuppl ing the Cities of Londun and IVeltrniniter with Fith, and for re. gulating the FM Market of the Lune. Read a firft, and ordered to be read a feeond time. _ _ Mr. Danl. brought in a Bill for extending the proviftons of the 34th of his prdent Majt ity, to regulate the mode of ad mitlitering oaths at Eledions. Read a Brit, and ordered to be read a fecond time on Friday, and to be printed. The SECRETARY at WAR prefented Eftimates of the Army Services for one month, from the asth inftant to the asth of June. The Right Hon. Gentleman oblerved that thefe EN mates were precifely on the fame leak of thole prefented to the Honk for three months up to the asth inftant, as it was impolable as yet to make up the Minutes for the Peace Efta bliihment, but he had no doubt they would be prepared before the expiration of the month. He hoped under thefe eircumftances the Houfe would have no objedtion that he flsould propok a vote on the Eftimates now on the table in the Committee of Supply on Monday next. He mould alto .take occaSon to move for the further continuance of the Mu tiny Mt fur a foam: period. The Eftimates were ordered to lie on the table. Dr. LAW R E NCR gave notice that he mould, on Monday next, bring forward a motion relative to the French and Dutch Claims In the Eatt Indies. The Controverted Elation Bill was read a fecond time and committed for Monday. The Bull Baiting Bill was brought in, read a arft, and or dered to be read a fecond time on Friday fennight. The Cummittec on tke Coroners Fees Bill was deferred till Monday. The Elettion Treating Mt was read a third time and paired. DEFINITIVE TREATY. Mr. \Vice' A M actor faid, he rofe to move for the production of certain documcnts, which, in his opinion, were of the utmoft importance to the difcnffion of the Definitive Treaty, and from the candid declaration of the Noble Lord on the Treafury Bench, on a former day, of his readi nefs to explain every part of that tranfaCtion, he could not entertain a doubt that Miniflers would be prompt to facilitate to the Houfe the attain ment of every information that might be need . .. fart? to form a correct judgment upon that fubjea. The firft paper for which he ghould move, was the Treaty of Badajos. There were two Treaties concluded at Badajos, one between Portugal and France, which never was ratified, and another between Portugal and Spain, which was ratified, and which was the document he alluded to. By that the important town of Olivenza was ceded to Spain, and the integrity of Portugal was molt materially violated. This paper was alluded to in the Seventh .%rticle of the Definitive Treaty : therefore no objeinion could poffibly be made to producing it. • His fecond motion fhould be for copies of any Conventions or Armiftices concluded between Portugal and Spain during the year 18ot, and communicated to the Britt& Government. It was to be feared that thefe contained many com mercial ftipulations highly detrimental to this country, and one of them was the baits of the Treaty, by which a great part of Portuguefe America was ceded. The Honourable Gentle- 1 man now entered into a confideration of the fatal effects of this ceffion. He Paid this diftria had always been reckoned of the utmoft importance by Portugal, not on account of its fertility, not on account of its population, not on account of its trade, though all thefe were confiderable, but becaufe it was the only fecurity for the valuable but vulnerable poll - dim of Brazil. This wa forcibly illuftrated by the Treaty . of Utrecht, con eluded in 1713, which was guaranteed by Great Britain. By the articles of this Treaty France was exprefsly prohibited from croffing the river zoos. In the Preliminaries, it was declared that . the dominions of her Moll Faithful Majefty fhould be preferved entire. But on the z9th September, two days before the fignature of the Prelimina ries, a Treaty had been concluded between Portu gal and France, by which the former power was obliged to cede an immenfe track of country. in America. When the Noble Lord was queftioned upon this point, he was evidently very embarraffed and perplexed. A lait an explanation was given, from which it appeared, that by entire was meant the dominions of which Portugal had not been defpoiled. This flatement of the Noble Lord, however, Was queltioned in the French Councils, and no fatisfaCtory information could be obtained. The Treaty of Badajos might be adhered to, but the objeft of France was as completely gained as if her original pretenfions had been admitted.— She had fecured to beach* the navigation of the Arawari. From a Dutch map he had, it appear ed that the only entrance to this river was between the two Wands Nuova and Penetenza. France thus controuled the commerce of Brazil, and the whole wealth of South America lay at her mercy. What means the might ule to extend her ufurpa. tions he would not pretend to foretell ; or whe. ther the might not halt for a while to confolidate what (he had already ufurped. But after what had taken place in Italy, not a doubt could be en tertained that fooner or later France would feize Brazil and Peru. The words of the Definitive Treaty inflicted upon this country a needlefs in. dignity. It allerted the integrity of Portugal, and guaranteed its difmemberment. We held out our proteCtion only to difplay our weakncfs. He fhould thirdly move for the Copies of any Treaties entered into between Spitin and France during the late negotiations for peace. Our new Ally dealt in malked Conventions, and, after le veret mock treaties, one made its appearance, by which the whole of Louifiana was ceded to France. She thus got poffeffion of a large and fertile track upon the River Miffiffippi, not more dillant from Mexico than Northumberland from the Metropo lis of England. Much had been faid of capital; here was a capital an which France would not fail to draw; and the world might long rue that fuch refources were in fuch hands. The French were now brought up to the very confines of Canada, and might limn re.eftabliffi their empire in that country. But the United States of America had moft to lea& Kentucky and the Weftern States had little connection with the Ealtern ; they were feparated by immenfe forefts, and peopled by dif ferent inhabitants, adventurers from every quarter. The only outlet to their trade was the Mitliffippi, and the American Government had flipulated with Spain for the free navigation of that River. Now theft States mutt be completely under the controul of France. If France does not feparate them from the tell, tee will make America at all times de pendant upon her, and will draw her into the con. federacy againft our naval greatnefs and the dig. nity of our flag—if indeed he could ufe the expect flon now, that the dignity of our flag, which had once been reckoned our moft valuable pofleftion, had been difgraced and degraded. It might be faid tharthe spirit of Europl would life to prevent thefe uturpations in America. Some people teem ed to confider , the fpirit of Europe as a kind of incantation. A foul and flagrant ufurpation had lately taken place in the very heart of Europe, while Europe inertly looked on. Yet the fpirit of Europe was to protect the independence of Amc. rica. Gentlemen who held this language had pro fited little by ten years of woful experience.— When France had conquered the Continent of Eu rope, could the Continent of America be fate— . The Expedition to Egypt was at firlt called ii fionary ; but if the principles of the prefent day had been afted upon by Miniflers then, France would now have been in quiet polieffion of that country, and perhaps other provinces of the Ot toman Empire would have fallen a prey to her rapacity. He maintained that the ceflion of Loui fiana had changed the whole complexion of the qneflion. Had this fact been known at the time when the Preliminaries were debated, lie was well convinced the Houfe would have paufed before alfenting to them. He had great refpeCt for K nitters as individuals, and he would by no mean; fay that they wilbed to impofe upon the Houle.— He believed that they were ignorant themfelves, but ignorance would not excufe them. Did they take the proper means to procure information' —Did they peremptorily put the queftion ? Ii France returned no anfwer, this was the greatelt indignity to*the Government and to the Country- If France returned a falfe anfwer, this was a fraud, and in either cafe the negotiations ought to have been broken oft At any rate they were acquainted with the faa before the fignature of the Definitive Treaty ; and before they proceeded farther they were bound in honour to come again and alk for the opinion of the Houfe. Mr. ELLIOT concluded by moving, That an humble addrefs be prefented to his Majefly, praying that he would be gracioufly pleated to give direCtions for being laid before the Houfe a Copy of the Treaty of Badajos, referred to in the 7th article of the Definitive Treaty with France, Spain, and the Batavian Republic. Lord HawsEsauty confidered the mode of pro. seeding adopted by the Hon. Gentleman extreme ly irregular. In propofing a motion to which there was no objection, the Hon. Gentleman had taken occafiun to enter, in the molt diforderly manner, into the whole merits of the queftion with wh:c•i that motion had only a relative connection. He defied any Gentleman to thew an inflance, even during the utmoft rage of factions, where any thing fo unufual or fo diforderly had been retorted to. The general and proper way was to a& for fuch information as might be thought neceffary upon any particular fubjeCt, and then to appoint a day for the difeuffion of that fubjetft ; but the Hon. Gentleman has canvaited all the bearings of the fubjeil, which he (Lord H.) would not fol low, for Gentlemen had by this courfe the advan tage of being able to fpeak on without interrup tion until they made their motion, and any per fon that fhould follow them, if he uttered any irrelevant obfervation, would be liable to be called to order. As to Portugal, lrc fhould beg to make .••••.1.•