Star. — London, England, 1818-03-10 00:00:00

leman had said, that in so much to protect Mi who gave information.— cious representation; but maintain that Ministers for such an indemnity. Were they gentlemen lity justified in some mea e House was called upon :ion? No, they were the re sent forth by Ministers, Us that had disturbed the ter: was one fact now of those spies, in addition detected, which called for fact was stated, and in respectable Newspapers of bton) had other authority. nary, to produce the name Lid prove all the circum chem.)—This gentleman opening the &ssion last egent returned from the liver at the Horse Guards invoigiting in such loud egent as to collect a crowd al whose name he could ly to confirm his statement i Oliver in vain. The con- MI the person of the Prince, e Habeas Corpus—(muck )pposed any indemnity for unjustifiable. Not only aion against the Bill ; net m, conscientious, and dc- • inisters and their agents ; but, in the name of the rated (Durham), where the lost the right of election ; • a full, fair, and impartial ,ctised during the suspen -(loid akeenng.)--He did ,encing the House, but he ace, that the House was le of England to support . , this Bill be read a first .(canlinaed cheering.) not have risen so early, if , ter side had attempted to off ei ful speech of his Ho hear from the Ministerial s he supposed from that now disposed to make the ready to give way to him Opposition). ---[The Hon. Speaker put the question ; himself, the Honourable use. resumed.) --.He had ,portunity to contradict his meat, if any had felt dis s attempt--(hear, hear).-- hen proceeded to spew the cedents of the Indemnity , 1745, and 1780, and the ch the present Bill was ie most objectionable part ad a retrospective effect u auary, 1817, although the :ommence in its operation -(hcar, hear). He thought tmed safficicat to have the , e with the Suspension Act. ry singular, that out of the nety-four, there were fifty •arrants from the Secretary 'arrant* of the Privy C,oun - the Magistrates of Derby of those apprehended by retary of State was ever re liberated on giving their hear). lie did not see in ng to warrant the beast of :ss of character. For his circumstance; of the times ~ s uspension of the Habeas nihilation. It was an Act, was felt only in times of 'et that was the very time :ffectual—(hear, hear). He Dught with the Honourable that Annual Parliaments, would ultimately end in sure, that among the ad my might be found, who v of improving the Repre- As to the Bill before the s Parliament had confided re Powers, it was bound to ise of those powers, pnrti pear to him that they were- •e were some parts of the thjections, but he would re per stage to urge those ob r.)—He should vote for the supported the Bill. He rosters fairly exercised the in. They were responsible ble only to this House. The t as their opinion, that the Suspension Act were judi discharged. What was the to do? It must either be ;tness of this opinion. But ded upon documents which to be open to public inspec resumed to be justifiable by s unquestionable that much m the information given by those who opposed the Bill, to abandon their witnesses, the people. Much was said it the spy who caused the s Corpus, but Mr. Cobbet, ters of this description. ridge) observed, that as the o hare acted according to no doubt, there could be , f Indemnity. It appeared, detained, either on charges of treason, and' out of the of think there was any one prosecution on the grounds even if there were two or a appeal. to the law:. for re- drc.ls, what harm could accrue to the witnesses on whose testimony they had been imprisoned, if they had stated nothing but the truth ? In the year 1813, seventeen persons were executed at York, on the evi dence of accomplices, for crimes against the public peace, and yet, for all that was known to the con trary, witnesses had returned to their homes, and lived there without fear or clafiger—(hear, hear). He would not detain the House on the subject of spies, but merely to observe that what Dr. Johnson said of ghosts, might well be applied to them, namely, " that all reasoning was against them, but experi ence was for them. He then compared the present with former times, when the Habeas Corpus Act had been suspended ; and contended, that the reasons as signed for the measure at this moment, were weak and nugatory, compared with the inducements in former instances. In reviewing the different disturb ances in• the country within the two last years, he considered, that in Derbyshire, if any where, they might look for full-grown rebellion ; but even there, the great theatre of the treason charged upon the people, not more than 200 persons rose into open tu mult ; and even these dispersed before a single troop of Dragoons, without having infected the people either with their principles or their purposes. He could assert, from his own local knowledge, that the alarm of the people in Yorkshire, in 1812, was much greater than what was produced last year, and yet no suspension then took place, and no Bill of Indem nity was required by the Executive for the means adopted to suppress the disturbance. He thought .that Ministers might let judgment go by default in any actions that might be brought against them; and pay the damages out of the secret service money. At all events, some plan of redress ought to be provided. Mr, BRAND maintained that the precedents quo ted by the Attorney General would not bear out the present proceedings, and in fact they were rather cal culated to show that the Bill before them was not en titled to the approbation of the House. Had the House of Commons been duly attentive to the peti tions of the people ; had the. Committee appointed to investigate the state of the country been chosen fairly , and impartially, instead of being composed chiefly of the Ministers, sitting in judgment upon t,he Ministers, he should not have objected - to an Indemnity Bill.— ,He hoped Ministers, however, would recommend some plan to the House, by which the sufferers under the Suspension Act should obtain redress. This might be done without precluding the Government from the advantages of an Indemnity Bill. Ministers had not placed themselves in a situation to demand this measure ; they had in fact deprived the people of England of the protection of the laws, and the House would not do its duty, if it did not reject a Bill which wat to.give impunity for such an offence. Mr. MARRYATT believed that Ministers had acted throughout from a conviction that their mea sures were necessary, and he should support the Bill of Indemnity. Lord ALTHORPE contended that as Ministers knew the extent of the danger, and had required from the House the powers necessary, for the public fafety, they were not entitled to ask for indemnity for hay ing exceeded those powers which were granted to them as sufficient, upon their own &hewing, to met the necessityy of the case. (Hear, hear.) Mr. FREEMANTLE felt himself bound to give a ,public avowal of his eentimeau, from a regard to consistency—(hear, hear.) He could not but observe that the arguments used that night applied more to the measure of last yeari than to that which alone was then before them. If the people had been swindled out of their rights, it was the Parliament who had swindled them—(hear, hear.) And it should adopt this measure from a regard to what was due to the Ministers—but he got up to support this Bill, from an anxiety to be consistent in his own character. It WAS idle to talk of the people being cajoled. He be lieved that treasonable acts had been committed— that revolutionary designs were entertained, and he therefore supported this measure. He would remind the House of the opinion of Mr. Ponsonby, who came out of the Committee with a conviction that there was danger in the state of the country—(hear, hear, hear), though he did not approve of the measures which were adopted to arrest its progress—(hear, hear, hear.) But he recollected that estimable man and enligh tened statesman, declared, that if he had been in the Cabinet, he should have advised similar measures to those which were followed—(Na, ;so, and hear, hear, from the Opposition beaches).—What was the fact, with regard to the statements of the petitions from persons who had been imprisoned? Why, they had all been disproved—(Hear).—Those from Manches ter had been rebutted by the testimony of the most respectable persons in that neighbourhood. The In demnity Bill Was part of the general proceedings on this subject, and the House was bound to go with the Ministry now, as it had done in suspending the Habeas Corpus Act before— ( Hear, hear).—He should never regret the vdte he intended to give on this occasion, because Ministers had laid the evidence of their conduct before a Committee of that House, which Committee had given a Report, sanctioning; and even applauding, all they had done—(Heer). Mr. BRAND said, in explanation, that he felt it his duty to object to this measure, because it de prived the people of their legal remedies. Lord NUGENT admitted, that his lamented friend (Mr. Ponsonby) came out of the Committee with a persuasion that a spirit of disaffection was abroad in the country ; but how did he illustrate this convic tion ? why, by voting against the Suspension Bill— (hear, hear,)---maintaining that the ordinary powers of the law were sufficient to preserve the public tran quillity—(hear, hear.)—He was sure, too, that if his lamented friend had been spared•to the country, he would not have violated his consistency by support ing the present measure—(Acar, hear.)—He agreed with his Honourable Friend ( Mr. Freemantle), that the question before them was the Indemnity Bill, and not the Habeas Corpus Suspension Act; but he, as well as his Honourable Friend, had some regard to consistency—(bear, hear);—and from the honest im pulse of his conscience, he should oppose the In demnity Bill, as he had condemned the measure which gave rise to it. He they proceeded to remark upon the case of the Petitioners, who, he maintained, Lad been cajoled into recognizances, to give a colour to the injustice of their imprisonment. .Much stress had been laid on the Report of the Secret Committee; but he trusted the opinion of a Committee, however formed, would not be final and imperative upon that Hosts:- The Report in question, however, was en- titled to very little weight indeed, when I: was Coe: he lead been the i personalty elbdat to. As to the sidered how that Committee had been torqued. With Noble Loris observation about his hiding-piece, said regard to Oliver, and his connexion with the Derby his not being in his seat, they were so trifling sad so rioters, he had heard nothing which could fairly ins- t much beside the question, that he ought to apoio peach the dying declaration of Brandretle that Oli- I gize to the House for making any reply to thenaese ver had ensnared him to his ruin —,(hear, hear.)— But as the Noble Lord had implied that he was Oleg Government, in the public opinion, was identified of a dereliction of his duty, or of the princip o with all that their infamous agents had accomplished which he professed (and he hoped sincerely) to aay or attempted ; and this was rather fortunate than he must state, that the ground on which he abstained otherwise, for it would tend to preserve the moral from speaking in general, was neither more nor kite feeling of the people by concentrating the public in- but, he assured the House, solely this—that be new dignation against the profligate and wicked designs, found any thing said on that side of the House hid which had diegasted all ranks of society—(hear.) any effect but that of being superfluous. Mr. BROUGHAM said, surely Ministers would The SPEAKER then put the question from the not so far lay aside all regard to appearances as to , Chair, " That the Bill be read a second time to-mor force on the second reading of this important Bill to- row," when morrow. There were three or four notices which Sir SAMUEL ROMILLY expressed his opinion, would have precedence of it, on each of which con- that an amendment should put it to-morrow week." siderable discussion might be anticipated. Did his He was astonished at the reasons given by the Noble Honourable and Learned Fliend mean by this to say Lord for a second reading to-morrow ; there had, in at once to the House and the country, that he consi- fact been no discussion on the Bill at all. He did not desed all argument superfluous and unnecessary— say that his Learned Friend (the Attorney-Generale that the question was to be carried alone by numbers had advanced no grounds in support of the Bill; be —(Loud cheering from the Ministerial benches)? He had indeed spoken at great length ; but when those implored the House, acquainted as they must be with grounds had been answered, and answered satisfac T the fact, that in ten days they were to be dissolved, torily, it was usual to expect some reply. Nothing and were to be sent to the country to their Consti- like such a course had taken place that night ; Gess tuents—(hear, hear, hear)—to consider the impression tlemen had risen one after the other on that side of which their conduct could not fail to produce. The the House, but none on the other side. The Noble experience, he thought, might have been spared, that Lord said, that Ministers did not speak because lee they rested their cause on numbers alone—that rely- Learned Friend (Mr. Brougham) had not epokeid *on the eloquence of votes, they deemed all other Bat had nobody else spoken? Had not the Flondige eloquence superflutgee—that the persons who had able Member for Durham,, the Honourable Meath* been deprived of their liberty under the Suspension for the University of Cambridge, and the Henelfr; of the Habeas Corpus Act, were to be deprived of able Member for Hertford spoken ? Was it aseoes all legal redress, because such was the will and sary for Ministers on all occasions to wait till tia pleasure of his Majesty's Ministers, who did not think Learned Friend rose from his hiding-place before they, it even necessary to condescend to give any reasons would condescend to make any reply to what was in justification of such a measure. He did not say urged from that side of the House?—(heor, hear) — that this was meant as an insult, but certainly it had If so, his Learned Friend had only to conceal him every appearance of it. When Ministers in this man- self, and Ministers might be spent for ever (hear).— ner met their opponents without arguments—without This was not very complimentary to Gentlemen on urging any thing—and put the question at once to the that Side of the House, nor would it be satisfactory vote—surely this was as much as to say, we have 190 to the public at large.—(Hear, hear.)—Was it right votes, and we care not for your remarks—we do not that a measure of such importance as the present think it necessary to give one reason for what we ask. should stand on the chance of being put off till elate —(Hear, hear, hear, from the Ministerial Benehes);•— houi to-morrow ? Many other questions of impor- After the division was declared, the manner in which tance must precede it according to the Orders ofthe the account of the numbers was received by the Mini- House. It could not come on till after the discus ' sterial Benches seemed to say, Aye, that was just what sion on the Salt-duties. a most important subject, and we expected—.(loud cimeringfrom the ministerial side). one that would probably occupy much time. Besides, It was as much as saying, We knew we were right." there was no necessity whatever for Ministers to pros! (I oud cheering from the Ministerial side.) Not right forward the measure with such impatient earnestness. upon the merits of the case, but in reckoning upon a Was it not retrospective altogether, and did it not go large mrity in their favour, (Loud tries of hear, back as far as the 26th of Janua r y ? The Nobl e hear.) The, on. Alderman (ler W. Cdrtis) he saw Lord was sure of carrying it, and he and his col was much amused, and it was impossible to look at leagues would, therefore, be just as safe three weeks the good humoured face of the worthy Alderman hence as at the present hour. They had no reason without catching some pdttion of what it so strongly w h atev e r f or pressing it forward with such indecese expressed ; he-must acknowledge that he enjoyed the ,precipitation, but to gratify the mere wantonness 4 • Hon. Alderman's cheering as much as he seemed to power—(hear.)—He hoped, therefore, that in regard do himself, because he verily believed that the Hos. to their own characters they would • not persist in Alderman vpted with the majority, and cheered the pressing the motion : ' majority, without being able to give one single reason Mr. -CANNING , mid the Honourable and,Leareed for his vote or his cheer—(Teter, hear, and Much Gentleman stated sonie•rules as to the feu-Ms-or dr 'laugh/fere—He must admit that a majority was an bate, which were true in themselves, but not in their lunanswerebig Ar4usuent. Ministers triumphing in application to the preseut case. It was true that to-. their majority might be careless, how far it con- 'night all the speaking had been upon the other tide earned. the House and die country that the Bill of House, but certeinly not all on the same tide should be hurried elerotiglf its various stages. They of the question (hear,Near, hear 1 • The reason why thought themselves sae of their numbers. That there was a want of occupation on his side of the was the argument on which they rested—Owe— House was, that the work had been taken out of their No matter how much it might be the duty of Mem- hands.—(Near, hear!) The Honourablennd Learn-. bets to deliver their opinions and reasons upon such ed Gentleman, indeed, seemed not to be aware of a question ; they seemed resolved that nothing shoUld t h e l engt h o f the debate which was just concluded. be had from them but the dead eloquence of votes. Th a t cou ld n o t b e ca ll e d a very short debate, in But if they persevered in fixing the second reading which there had been twelve different speakers ; and for to-morrow, when it must come on at a very late yet such had been the debate of this night. It could hour, from the pressure of other most important not be called i very extraordinary debate, in which business (for there were several notices of motions of there were six speakers on the one side of the ques great interest which stood for to-morrow, and it was tion, and six on the other side, and yet such had a day on which notices preceded orders,) if they were been the debate of this night—(Cries at hear, hear!) 'evolved to persevere, it only remained for those who When an accusation was brought against one party hod to combat against a majority, and not against for having allowed the debate to drop, the accuse tegument:, to avail themselves of the protection which tion could not be sustained if the last speech in the lthe forms of the House, devised by the wisdom of debate was one ei favour of that side of the question, ' our ancestors, so wisely, as it now appeared, to guard supported by the warty accused—and yet such had against such an abuse and contempt of the ordinary been the case in the debate of this night e -(hear, keep., course of proceeding in measures of such interest and hear.) The debate had been opened by his lion. importance. He therefore gave notice, that if to- and Learned Friend (the Attorney-General) with morrow was the day appointed, to these forms he very able speech, the arguments of which remained would resort, and he trusted he would be supported yet unshaken ; and with that speeeh he world be in availing himself of them in so flagrant a case— willing t o r e s t t hei r part of the question. He w as (dear' hear, hear! from the Opposition.) followed by the Honourable Member for Durham ; Lord CASTLEREAGH said the Honourable and and the Member for Northumberland, who both op- Learned Gentleman seemed to e think that his Majes• posed the Bill.. They were followed by the Honour ty's Ministers,'by not having spoken in the course of able Member for Bristol, and the Honourable Mew. this debate, shewed a contempt for the House, and bee opposite (Mr. Stanhope), both of whom spoke neglected a duty which was expected from them. against the arguments of the two Hon. Membere But if the Hon. Gentleman himself had exerted his who preceded them. Then came the Members fur talents on this occasion, on which he seemed to think Cambridge and Hertfordshire, who both opposed the it so much the duty of every Member to bring for- Bill, and they were followed by an lion. Member ward such arguments as occurred to him, for or from the cross benches (Mr. Marryatt), who was iii against the measure, they might probably have pro- favour of the Bill. A Noble Lord opposite (Lord timed the effect of calling up some of the Members Althorpe) then spoke against the Bill, and next came on his side of the House and of prolouging the de- the Honourable Member (Mr. Freemantle), whose bate. But why did not the Honourable Gentleman speech contalnedthe best and strongest arguments in himself take a part in the debate ? If he blamed others favour of the Bill ; to whose speech again a Noble Ibr not arguing in favour of the Bill, why did not he Lord (Nugent) did his best to reply—(s laugh)._ himself argue against it ? Instead of that, however, he and last of all came the speech of an Honourable bid remained in his hiding place till the debate was Member opposite, in support of the Bill, from a qua.- over—(Laughter). It was understood, indeed, that the ter whence least of all was such support expected. Hon. and Learned Gentleman was kept back on this This was the history of the debate in which his Ma sad recent occasionsby election business—ehear, hear), jesty's Ministers were blamed for not having takea a with which, indeed, the Honourable Gentleman on part. He would be glad to know in what part of the the present occasion seemed to' be more conversant debate they could have with propriety come in ? But, than any other Member ; for he had told the House indeed, he would observe, that a debate in which the what was as new probably to them as it was to him conduct of Ministers themselves was in question, and. (Lord Castlereagh), that Parliament was to be dis- in which they were personally implicated, was not solved in a fortnight—(hear, hear.) But indeed he that in which they should be too ready to take a never saw powder more waged than that which the part--(hear, hear). In addition to the history of the Honoureble and Learned Gentleman fired off on debate, which was itself a sufficient reply to the two this occasion—(laughter.) As for the menaces of Hon. and Learned Gentlemen, he must remind the the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, he hoped his House, with regard to their threat about forms, th at Honourable and Learned Friend (the Attorney-Ge- the course of debating a Bill on the first reading, which , neral) would be not one whit deterred by this newly- had been done to-night, was a very unusual course.-- nwakened effort of the Honourable and Learned The usual course would have been to have had the ,Gentleman opposite, but would continue to fix the first reading on the same night that the Bill was second reading for to-morrow, according to the estab- hrou & ht in from the Lords ; and the second reading liaised rules. If it were found that the other business on this night. That course was interrupted by a re of the House should occupy them to-morrow till too quest from an Honourable Member opposite, out of late an hour, then the appeal of the Honourable and courtesy to whom his Hon. and Learned Friend (the Learne'l Gentleman would have come in its proper Attorney-General) had consented to postpone the first place--(hear j hear, hear.) reading till this night ; and now, in return for this, Mr. BROUGHAM rose, amidst cries of &poke! the lion. Gentleman opposite came forward with hi s Spoke ! He begged the i ndulgence of the House, as /hreats. His Noble I ict)%l il.crd Castlereagh) secure,{, ) t i i , ' ! If , i , i .1 4 ' . . , • '• • . i 4 , 1 1 1 ,t • i , • t 4 . , It i - ' 1 1 t , 1 ' 1 1 i t 1 . l' 1- , i, , , 41 i f sii . 14 r"( ri ti 0 . 1 , , f 4 114 i 1 " , ; 1 , ! ' I 1 4 t 1 1 11 1 :., ' i• it,