Star. — London, England, 1802-06-10 00:00:00

IRELAND. Mr. Fos rre role to enqnire the realm ally come accounts, long finer ordered, refpeling licland,hAti not yet been laid before the Heouh? The SPCAKER interrupted the Hon. Member by remarking. that the Houle could not take cogni zance of tii:i kielay a motion fitould be tilbmittrd. Mr. ros rpm laid, he had no with lb, make any motion on the fobjeft ; if the Right Hon. Centle -111211 on the Treasury Bench amnia fay that the accounts referred to were in a Rate of forward and would be ready by Friday. Mt. COMO' regretted the delay complained of, but at the fame time obferved, that the Itifh o . fficers were entire: , deranged in their fyftem of preparinr; accom.t.. by the plan recently intro duced into that country: He hoped, however, that the Home would not confider him refpon lible for any errors or neglea of which they might be guilty, over many of whom he had no controul. Mr..Forrta difclaimed any wilh to impeach the Right Hon. Gentleman's attention; but as the Right Hon. Gentleman Rated that he had no controul over tome of the Officers to whom the orders of the Houle were direaed, that cutely was a fulfici- 6 ,t reafon why the Houfe fhoull interfere on this occatlon. • _ _ Mr. Wicit Nam obferved, that feveral of the ac counts alluded to by the lall fpeaker bad been fent from Ireland and twice returned, in order to have them con etied. _ _ A perfon from the Irifh Treafury imefented fe vtral accounts ordered fome time lance, among which was our Rating the salaries and fees of the Lord Chancellor of Ireland, which was referrel to the Committee appointed to confider the pro priety of augmenting the revenue of that officer. Ordered, on the motion of Mr. FOST t a, feconded by t1:-. Coat r, that immediate returns Ihoula be made to the orders already made relative to cer taia Irak accounts. _ _ _ Mr. FOSTER called the attention of the Honk to the return made to the order refpefin the authurity under which the firm of 334:00 had been expended for the fervice of Ireland. This return he deemed imperfe&, becaufe it fated that that fnm had been appropriated under the Alt of the forty.firll of his Hajelly ; whereas it appeared, from a review of that Ai, that the Ann of two millions only had been granted ont of the Confolidated Fund, which two trillions were en tirely expended in England; therefore, according to the return, 2,334;0001. was appropriated under an Alt which only authorized the expenditure of two millions. With a view to inwelligate this bufinefs, he moved, That there be laid before the Houfe au account of the manner in which this film of 334,c001. had been railed, whether by loan or Trealury Bills, and the dates of prirskitt into the Treafury. Mr. Colter felt Awned of the petty warfare abOut irifh accounts, which had of late fo fre quently occurred in the Houfe. The prefent Mo tion he fhould oppofe, beCaufe it would be im poffible for any officer to diftinguifh from what fund the fum referred to had been railed—whether (rain the general revenue of Irel.end, the I.oao, or the profits of the Lottery -- and this he thought the Right !lover himfelf mutt be aware of. Mr. Forrat denied that the cafe his motion alluded to deferred to be deferibed as a puny hu finefs—it was no lefs a qneflion, than whether a Minister (hould be allowed to appropriate money in a manner different from that which Parliament fhould prefcribe—whether any Minifier should be permitted to trifle with the Conflitation of Parlia ment 3 The return which he wifhcd 01 have amended bated, that the fiim in quetlion was ap plied in courequenee of a rote of credit, and as no fuch vote appeared on the Journals, it was rarely diStrable to know upon what authority that fum had been difpofed of.. The Hoare divided on the motion—Ayes 2 Noes 6a—Majority 41.--Rejetled. CLAIM', RESIDINCS BILL. On return to the Ilonfe we found Sir WILLIAM &Orr fpeaking on the Clergy Refidenee Bill. The Leatned Gentleman flared, that he had taken the sitme,l. pain.; to thaw up this Bill, and to accotn lr,nd.l% the infinite variety of opinion which pre vailed on the fubleft—a fubjea which was of filch irr.portanec as to deferve the fullelt difculfinn. In older, therefore, to give ample opportunity to examine it, he would decline to profs it forward at this advanced period of the Sefton, and fhonld pollpone the farther confideration of the Bill till the next Setlion, hoping that it would then be brought forward under die molt favourable au fpiees, as, in his opinion, it would tend to operate the mnfl beneficial refutts. At the fame time he wilned that the till for proteding the Clergy from vexati3us profecutions Ilsould be farther conti nued. Mr. Di act 'ism, then gave notice, that be would, to-morrow, move for leave to bring in a Bill to continue for a limited time the Aft for fufkending the Aft of Henry the Eighth, relative to the refi dance of the Clergy. IRISH MILITIA. Mr. Forrga rote— The CHANCILLOR of the Excnsetpla perceiving him, Laid, that underilanding the Hon. Member rofe purfuant to his notice relpeeing the Ira Mi. , litia, he begged to obferve, that Inch accounts were not yet received from Ireland as were necef firy to enable the Hotife to form a complete judg ment cf the conduit of the Ira Government upon that bniinefs, but as thofe accounts were expetted within a very few dar, he hoped the Hon. Member would have no objeition to put of his motion un til they amtild arrrive. Mr. Forrea called upon the Right Hon. Gen tleman to name the day he ex peteted thofc accounts; if for a (hors time, he had no oblation to pollpone his motion, withiag that fome arrangement might be made in the interim which would relieve the Militia from the difagreeable dilemma in vliich they were at prefent placed. The C.:HAM:IO.OR of the Etc Nivea replied, that tlio Papers lie alluded to were expeded by Monday next. P(15;;It agreed to defer his Motion until ihitt day. Mr. Ttisitre . gave notice, thnt he weld - er Weds efday next bring forward certain RefoUnions refpeaing Me Finances of the Country, of the fame nature with thofe he had for time tinte back an nually submitted to the Honfe. 1) c.LY. The SICRFTARY at WAR moved ille Houfe to refolve itfelfintn a entan.ittee of Supply. Order ed, and that the Navy and Army Ettimates, the Irith Yeomanry and Militia Edimates, and the Account of the unfunded Dcht of that Country, thould be referred to the Paid Committee. XAVY. The Honfe then refolved it felf into a Committee of Supply, to which the Army and Oidnance El. dilutes, and the accounts of the Unfunded Debt, and the charge of the Yeomanry Corps iu Ireland, were referred. Mr. ELtor moved for a vote of 70,000 men for the fea ferviee, for foren lunar months, comtnenc ing the lath of June tBo2, including 14,000 Ma rines. Mr. TIERNEY wifhed for information as to the extent of the permanent Peace Ellabliffiment- The CHANCELLOR of the ExcHroy Ea (aid, the Committee inua be aware that no opinion could be inferred from the prefent vote, as to the permanent Peace Eflabliffirnent. So large a proportion of the Navy was at prefent employed on foreign fervice, that it was impoffible to bring forward any Peace Eitablifhment ; but, if he had it now in his power to propofe a permanent Peace Eftahliihment, he thought that 30,000 would be allthat would be ne celfary for the fea fervicc. He begged the Commit tee, however, to underltand, that he did not pledge tblelf upon this fubjeft, but fuch was his opinion of the prefent Rite of things, that he thought 30,000 men would he enough, although he would not pledge hindelf to any fpccific number : he looked forward with confidence to that limited number in the enfuing year. Mr. TIERNEY laid, he fuppored that was to be confidered as the lowed number? The Cnascssa.out of the Excuso.srsa replied, the probable number.—The motion was agreed to. The Committee then proceeded to vote, For Wages for the laid 70,000 men for the fame period, at 375. per man per month 906,300 0 0 For Vldtuals for the Paid men for the fazuc pe riod, at 3gs. per man per month - 931,000 0 0 For wear and tear of the Ships in which the fait' men are employed, at 31. per man pea month - - 1,470,000 0 0 For Ordnance for the Sea Service, at sn per men per month 1254C0 0 0 ARSIY. The SItfRITARY at WAR then rote, and raid he Olould endeavour to Rate the army Cervices for the retnainder of the year, as fhortly as poffible, and the difference between the Propofed Efkablifhment and the War Eftablifhment, as voted from the 25th of Deer.Mber to the 24th of March the comparative number of men and expence would Rand thus : Alen. - Expeace. Gorda, Guam*, and Plantations. C. J. d. War I. ttablithment - 161,364 I 5A32,c00 0 0 Proparud Eltablijkocnt 93.793. 3.104,000 0 0 Menace - Central sad Staff Men. War FRablifbraent Propoted Eaabliatmcat 6.5471 I 2,328,000 0 0 140,700 0 0 50,300 0 0 Difference - Militia and ?meth le Infantry. War Ettahh Outwit • 103,91 s I 2 ,0 TAOO 0 0 hc whole Expenee under this head would In: fared for the remainder of the yea. °Sete k•lT74.fa 90,400 0 0 Willi refped to the War-Office, the eipence was, he raid, (till very ennfidensble, but the number of perfoas employed was nb more than was abfolutely necefrary. There was a great arrear of bufinefs in that Office, but he hoped the time would foon come when a reduaion in the expence of that Office might take place. War Ettabflthavent. Allowance to Inn-keekra Propoled /taublitluccot I)i6'enatce L 537.000 apixx) mpg° He was, he raid, led to believe, that a great re. dation of this erpence would take place in another year, when the Troops became regularly Rationed and dillriboted in Barracks. For the prefent it was propofed to continue the rate of allowance the fame as it was in the preceding year, in confider*. don of the innkeepers having ruffered confiderably during the lalt year from the high price of every 'article of fubfiltence. War Eltabillkmaa--Half Pay - . - Z. 22,5400 Propok4ll Etabollialan 4 0 ,10 3 00 Excel - - i7a,000 The number of Officers thrown upon half-Pay mall, he obferved, neceffitrily be increafed, in con fequence of the number of regiments reduced.. War Efiablitrtment—Volunteer Corps, taking the proportion of the lait Bre toonths, - £.r,154,0n0 Great part of this fum would now be raved, as it was intended to retain no corps who received pay, and to reduce the allowance to others. War Eftiblitunent..-Barracks £.94 0 , 000 Prapofed Eftablament 740.000 Difference, - • 200,000 The rum propofed for the remainder of the year for this fervice was, he obferved,confiderable; but the Committee would perceive the important ad. , vantages which refulted to the Army from this Eftablahment. He ihould now, he Paid, detail briefly the more minute particulars of the intended reduSion. It *as propofed to reduce 6 Regiments of Dragoons - 3 ,093 mem £.2 6 2,334 additiontl Battalions of old Regi. mints of Foot, and four young Regiments to be &banded 20,862 men. £680,443 Several of thefe, however, he obferved, could not be expelled to.be difbanded immediately.— Until the troops now on foreign fervice returned from abroad, it would be neceirary to preferve our garrifons here ; feveral of the regiments pro poled to be di(banded mita therefore be' kept on foot for Tome time longer. It was alto intended to reduce the Royal Garrifon Battalion and fix Weft India Regiments. The Invalids it was in tended to reduce altogether, it being thought bet ter to keep up a regular Infantry than a corps of Invalids, although that Body muff certainly be confidered as highly refpeaable and ufeful. Number of Invalids 7806 m £.:97,00p tout Gunk, a redaction ell • .5474 sun a 36,333 ii&tuulet flood that the AM of Jaistaica wised contribute to the payment of the troops Rationed there for its defence, which would bias confiderahle faring to this Country. He did not fee any reafon• for Rating particularly what Regiments were to be Rationed in Ireland, and wheel's Great Britain ; it mull be confidered according to cireumaances as to what force thould be Rationed in any pert of the United Empire. The Cavalry, which it was' ptivored to have in fervice for.the remainder of the year, were three Regiments of HorfeGuards, feven Regiments of Dragoon Guards; and twenty Regiments of Dragoons. It was prorated that the eftabliffiment oreach Regiment thould be eight troops of 6o men each ; mabMg a total to each Re giment of 480. The Foot Guards would remain the fame as at the lag peace. The Regiments of Font it was propofed to number 11-ons one to cies-- ty-nine—the whole number of Infantry kept up, would be 48,e51. The Regiment of Riflemen, it was propofed to keep up. The Royal Waggon Corps it was alto proputed to keep up in a certain degree, as it was important to have people of that defci iption in our fervice, in readinefs at the com mencement of a War—die number propofed to be kept up was 259. The Staff Corps it was alfo propored thould be kept up. as it chiefly contified of artificers, and from which much advantage might be derived. With refped to General and Staff' Officers, the charge under this head seas larger than tifual, but the number, employed was as new as poffible. It was propofed to have only four Major Generals in Ireland, one in each pro vince, Which was as (mall a number as could be employed in that country. As to the Foreign Corps, it was propoled to retain only three Regt ments,with the exception of the Regiment of Meu ron. in India, which it was irderttood would re main in the pay of the EaR InuiaCompany. Thole propofed to be retaine3 were thole which, by ca pitulation at the Mend of Ceylon, were to be em ployed in the fervice of Great Britain for ten years ; the Regiment of Rohan, which was at prefent actually in garrifon at Alexandria, and the QEeeit's German Regiment. With refpett to the Foreign Corps, which it was propofed to difband, he trufled the juftice and humanity of the Com mittee would induce them to make a liberal com penfation to the Officers. The turn of 32 t,oool. which was propofed to be voted, included not GMT the maintenance of the Corps retained, but alto a compenfation for thole difbanded. It was pro pofed to keep up the Royal Military College— upon an economical fcale the eapence would be 63691. per annum. This inititution was of impor tance, inifmuch as it tended to form fkilful Offi cers; and if we had skilful Officers, 'the number of men employed might be decreafed, as a (mall number of men, commanded by Officers of (kill, would do much more than a larger number under. the command of Officers inferior in Military Sci ence. It was to be obferved, at the fame time, that a great part of the expense of this Intlitution was defrayed by contribution. It was propofed to keep up alto the Royal Military Afylum. He chncluded by moving his .Irft Rer)lution, for pro- viding 70,2)9 Land Forces, including Officers, for the fervice of Great Britain and Ireland, from the 25th of June, 1202, to the 24th of December fol loe ing. Mr. Ban es raid, it seas by ro means his inten tion to object to the vote ; but he wifhed to take the prefent opportunity of calling the attention of the Houk to the ell:thin:tient now for the firtt time propofed as a Peace Eflabliffiment. Although he was ready to admit the Right Han. Gentletnatt had declined Rating it as a permanent Peace . Ellablithment, yet it aeztuld become the Commit tee to confider it in one or tern points of view. The qtteltion had never dirediy come before Par. Bement (ince the termination of the late war, yet from What had occurred in the courfe of various debates, it was ealy for him to perceive, that he was addreffing hintfelf to an audience not difpored to Ellen favourably to the arguments he thould offer. He thould limit the obfervationishe had to make, in confequence of his perfnafion - that no- 1 tions Afferent from thole which ;ideated him, would be prevalent in the Committee. He, how ever, contidered he should neither be difcharging the duty he owed to the country, and to his own charader, if in the new and unparalleled fituation in which the country was placed, he did not fate what occurred to him as the foundation of thole principles which ought to guide the Houfe in adopting fuch rneafures as exifting circuralhances demanded. He offered his fentiments with ex treme diffidence, becaufe he was aware he differed materially from perfons eminent for their political wifdowewho thought they could not recur to what had been the former pradice without danger to the country. The Committee were now called upon to vote under • the firft bead or Artlfy .Efts mates, for guards for Great Britain and Irelaad e l an eftabliflimcnt of eo,ooo men, namely, 23,000 for Ireland, and 47,000 for England. Previous to the late war, the ettimates of Army for the peace eflabliflunent wavered from 18,000 down to 15,000 men, but they never exceeded the former number. Such a difproportion• as there was be tween chat number and 47,000, ought to induce the Committee to rade before theyTandionecl an, increare of fo very great an extent. Of the Plan tation eflimates the encreafe was not fo large, but Rill it was confiderable. On the ofd peace ((lab liniment they did not vary much more than from ~13,000 to x 6,000 men, including the Plantations in general; they were now fated at 25.500 men. He was far from meaning to infer, that in the prefent Rate of the Well Indies there ought not to be additional garrifons in Tome of the Colonies ; but filch an increafe, where it was neceffary, might be more than counterbalanced, by reducing the eflabliffiment in others where it was not neceffary to continue upon the fame fcale. Allured he was, that the Right Hon. Gentleman and himfelf per redly agreed upon principles, and that he differed from him only in the application of them. He agreed with him that every predicable (economy, confiftent with the fecurity of the country, ought to be adopted : but then the Right Hon. Gentle man, and thofc who fupported his opinions, con tended, that the economy he recommended, was the extreme of patthnoar, whkh emu. ally hate the efea of putting the country to a greater expencq than if a contrary fyftem had bten reforted to in the firtl inffance. He cuter:cited very great doubts whether Any eflablinnc.,t toat we had it in our power to keep, confiaeraly tbelituation of the country, and tht flat , .! of Coe ,finances, could be fufficient to enable us to he farmed -in fa* s-leninnse. as-ter defy - ktrack.• any of his non. Friends meant tomaintain that Inch an efficient eflablidiment could be kept ei . p s . the attfwer he fbould give, would he, that tae !Lite of the finances were' inadequate to it.. If it v:as intendecrthat this country si•a% to keep up arm;ei ; in condition ready to be difpatched, at a momert's notice to different poffenions„ or to aid or thole whom it might be our intereft to fetve— •ne for one obieaed to it. The country - caolci nn do ir. Its minces were not -equal , to the : • tempt. !Whenever fcch an attempt had been tr:, it had failed. In the courfe of lall War we 113t1',,:z ' difpofable armies fufficiently powerful to cover t • objetis molt important, which .we had Of two great objetcts in contemplation, we had been forced to abandon one ; it had form :if of defence of his Majelly's i‘liniaers to tlie charge alledged a,Tainfl them, that they had to alternative but that of abandoning Porto git's to the • imminent danger with which be was threatened, or rof lofing the opportuniiy of refcii7iig Egypt from the polreffion of the French. By endeavout ing to grafp at two objeds, it often happened that both were loft. In his opinion, Government by attempting to retain an army available for all our. poles of hoilile preparation, would exhauft the firength of the country; and if the period arrived when we fhobld be confirained to enter into a new career of warfare, we fhould do it with weakened and debilitated refources. The reduction pro pofed, he therefore confidered as unfit on the ore hand for the fecurity of the Country in cafe of danger • and on the other, as calculated to pre :vent the Country from hufbanding its means and fluting fair with the enemy in the event of a fn. ture war. Finance was the finew—the nerve— the very foul of war ; and to keep it unparalized and fecure, was of all ()Nab the moll important. I It was a maxim of policy, that in great affairs nothing was io unwifc as to ptwfue a middle courf:. If the object in view was important, tie means ought to be equal •to its atedament. Hit wes • deemed prudent to Is*p an. army adequate to the defence of the ConntrY, t 1 a eflablahment Should not proceed upen a principle of .economy. • Ifthe greater objea was to (economize, an etiablifhment thould not be proirofed that rendered* (economy ,impratticable. The prefent Peace Eftablithment • which the. Committee were called upon to vo:e, was too large for ceconomyi. and not fuaicient for defence.—While he was recommending to the Cbffirnittee to cotifider • the Finances of the Coun try as far as poffible, he was ready to admit the refoutces of the Country were great, and that by perfevering in a fyftem of (economy we mightbe placed in filch a flare as to infpire hope, but no thing could he clearer than that it was imnoMble t.) make.any material faring, except in one wa.v, and that was by reducing twan extent infinitely beyond what was propored, the Military E:st. blilinnents of the Country. Referring to the 7.c. timates of the Army and, Ordnance L-efore the War, he maintained they had been d ndtle,'„ and that we had to meet the excels with re tined fonds. There was another confideration which he thought it bighlyiterrpnr , ant:(n a d advert to.— the proceedings of the Legifletnre v : ere atte:e...l with more .publitity in this than in any ('-zser country. This cii cumllar.ce had its ad: ante but it alfn had its difadvantages.—(,' A rrl howl It was impollible for the Governtner: this country to do the fame things with the degree of fecrecy as the Government r,t otl.zr country; for this reafou alone he r.ot hip ebferving, that a reduaion, Mat to, was now pit. pofed, would look, not certainly like a define infringe , the peace, but as if we had not any .: n guide expectation of the continuance of it. tt right or prudent wa thauld do any thing wh!vl would ferre as the pretence for hoftile eitablith. menu on the part of other powers? Ought not that fuggeftion to inducettritulteep oar Efiabl:lll - as low as poire4c,?.. Tree, it was, other powetswere ha bound to follow our exam; ;e; but was it wife to eirved them the opportunity of fay ing,becanre England has done fo we will do fo too! Wish regard-to France, he was inclined to think 'ffie would be comßelied to retort to fame pretexts in order to make a large array popular. He did not mean to try, that any pretext, founded upon the fpirit of French Liberty, the effeace and name of which bad been :ltidig'extiLlgtiifluid, would be attempted to be rettiv.eas but when the Govern. Mem ofFrasti-e looked-into the late of the finan ces-- of that' countaky, •it would• be found that it Would be difficult for the,PeoPleeto bear the.charge of a large army. Woild . the Committee then gi\z the Gbvernmcnt of France ground to fay we.car.- not clifarm, becaufe England will not let us? lie begged leave to oblerve, that an eminent Frencla writer had fpoken of the defile of Government! to krep up large military eliabliihments as.a fort or nifeafe—.his Tema' k was, that the .Princes cf Europe. in the reign of Lewis XIV. maiuta;ned eftablitbenents ruinous to theireount ries, and ke7.•••• armies as e;:tenlive as if they were in women ., erpedation of die enemy attempt is • mination of their fubjeets. The G. • proceeded to maintain, that Engioed, t: infular fituation, was more fecure than cl ' 't • • 7. kingdom in Eamee, and never tad the:: f - a . . fudi a military fpirit diffuled among the vei j « • s • at this very Moment.. There weer ncre:ers 1. men praailed in the aft of arms, and ready to' : ‘: called into attion if their ceartry thould requice .1; therefore, there never had been a period at whi , :i; a elnfiderable reduction could be made Widi more Cefety than at prefent. The fyftem of' extravagw": ellablifhments could not kit long; we 0a:,;:r.c , .: - fequently to endeavour to deereafe it as_ e .,: poffible. He, concluded by laying, he the vote he feared the Committee woeld 2 . ;;lrt begilAng of a fyilern which be mort. , lailTregretted, as it was brought fol ward whole ientirnents.anci op:niosis were in gr::es... unifun with his aw•n.