Star. — London, England, 1801-03-11 00:00:00

t him. \V.hat, thnugl: lie v.-cre a prieft;more than if he werean officer is the army ora gentleman of ; the law ? Porrwrly doubt, had been entertained NtlvAlier they could fit in Parliament, knit would be ftraiies on that acconnt to call evidence to prose that an Honourable Gentleman, whom he r a w o v er th e way, was his Majc:l y's Attorney Ge i:oral.— Ilc by no means meant to prejudice the caul:, kit he could not poliihly confent to a mo tion of this kind till the Houle had previoutly comQ to tome fpecitic resolution. ME. Bs AGG C begged Gentlemen to recolle& that their experience in quetticms of privilege could not be very great, as lince the inftitution of a ufelul tribunal. now almott always employed, they lel dum came before the Houfe. A quettion of half the extent bad forrifirly occurred, viz. Whether a Deacon was eligible ? and this method of invef- Ligation was then adopted. On his own fuggeltion a Member (Mr. Sheridan) had formerly moved for a new writ instead of a Rt. Honourable Gen tleman (Mr. Dundas), who had accepted the of fice of one of his Majetty's principal Secretaries of! State. There wete to be lure many ways of pro- seeding, but this was as unexceptionable as any of them. If any one entertained doubts of the eligi bility of his Honourable Friend (Mr. Attorney General), it was competent for him to move that the point be inveiligated. Mr. Fox laid his opinion remained unshaken. Such a praCtice might be produftive of very un pleafant confequences. Any Member who had a fpite at another might rife up, and laying he doubt ed whether he was qualified, move, that witneffes be called to the bar, and examined as to his cir cumftances. He Rated this the more readily as, in the present Call,none of thefe confequences could follow. Bnt he would not, on that account, quietly fee the ulages of the Houle difregarded. In no inflance ought witneffes to be called, fill fome pro= ceeding has rendered evidence necesTary. His Ho nourable Friend had not begun by proving the fad of the Right Honourable Gentleman being Secre tary of State; and on no occafion Mould facts be enquired into till the law has been ellablithed.— Among many other ii:eonv.enicnces, he begged Gentlemen would attend to the lofs of time which would be occafioned by a contrary praCtice. He continued decidedly again(' the motion. Mr. BRAGG E Paid, the Houfe, by ordering the witneffes to attend, had fo far entertained the tub. jed, and declared an Enquiry to be neceftary. Mr. HORNE TOONE then role and (poke in fub- Rance as follows. Mr. Speaker, I rife to refill the motion which you lately put from the Chair—not that I defire to delay the difcuffion of this queflion. - My only with is, that the difcuffion may be full and fair. lam as eager as any one that complete information upon the fubjeet may be received, and any proper measure that has this for its objed I Cull willingly support. Before I enter into the queition, I beg the Houfe to recolleft the previous proceedings. About three weeks ago the Noble Lord gave notice, that if in the course of fourteen days no petition was prefented to the Houle, he fnould make a motion with regard to the repre fentation of Old Sarum. [Some one called out X..] I fay yes. This was the nature of the notice, and it is in the memory of the Houle that it was as I have Rated it. On the fifteenth and Sixteenth days, I attended in my place, but nothing what ever was Paid. On the 17111 I was obliged to be abfent from revere indifpofition, and when I came down on the L ath, I found that the Noble Lord had given notice of a motion for the loth of March. relpeCtin the eligibility of the Reverend John Horne ooke. His Lordfliip came up to me in a very polite manner, and handfoniely told me what be had done. His condua certainly, Sir, would have been more handfome if fubfapient proceed ings had correfponded with this. When I alked him what the nature of his proputed motion would be, he laid there was a difficulty about it, as the lawyers were net agreed. This was the Lath day after that on which I took my feat, and Rill the Noble Lord and his advifers remained undetermin ed ! His Lordfliip, however, affured me that if I should attend in my place next day, I Mould hear all the particulars, and when 1 mentioned my in ners to him, hepromifed to inform me by letter. The followiit day I was able to attend in perfon, but no explanation took place. The Noble Lord made a motion for calling n itneffes to the Bar. I told him I would lave him the trouble, as I frankly confeffed that I had been ordained a pried more that forty years ago. It was declared from the Chair that this would not he fufficient. For forty years I have been in the habit of attending to the proceed ings of Parliament. I have been often prefent in this I lonic. I have been called to your bar. I have been brought to it in cullody of the Serjeant at Arms. I mull, therefore, know fomething of Parliamentary forms ; and I do not hefitate to de clare, that it has always been the praftice to re ceive admiffions. Indeed, what can this Houle have In worthy of being relied upon ? It is never fo well off as habros (perm reum. You cannot adminil er an oath, and mull be contented with a fimple affirmation. When an un happy Printer is brought to be examined, he is afked, whether he is guilty of printing the libel laid to his charge ? and upon his confeffion he is inttantly fent where he deserves to go. 1 believe that fairnefs and juflice call upon the Houfe to repel this motion, unlefs the Noble Lord than ex plain more fully how he intends to proceed. He has not kept the promife which he made me. Thefe lawyers, I fulpea, have advifed him to break it. He lays, by would treat his molt inti mate acquaintance and dcarell friend exaElly in time fame way. For his own fake, Sir, I hope that he would not. When he is moved, neither by enmity nor profit, Should he tamper with the law yers to find out a flaw in other people's titles ? I formerly gave credit to his profellions. I nosy withdraw it, as it was improperly bellowed. I do not fay that he is my perfonal enemy. Ido hot believe, Sir, that I have a perfonal enemy in the world. He bears towards me, Sir, violent political animosity— [A cry of Order Order 1— I beg pardon, Sir, if I am out of order. lam lure I Mould be lorry to be In, but it is not quite ,:afy to remain cool after the manner in which the Noble Lard has talked of my cliaraecr, my poll-i 1 tics, toy principles, and my pall condarrt. He de ', fired you to keep tilde out of view. I defu:e, Sir, - that they nvy all be taken into confideration. The more they arc fertainived I fliall be the better pleated. You are bound to confider thefe topics before you come to a jug conelufion, and I am at a lots what could be the Noble Lord's motive for giving you fuch advice.—There is an At which has drawn univerfal applaufe, which has been uni formly approved by both fides of the Houfe, and confiderei as a powerful proteelign to their privi leges by the people at large. Sir, I was the caufe of that Ad. To me, to me alone, it .was owing that the Bill was brought in kyr the Noble Lord's grandfather (Mr. George Grenville). An at tempt fimilar to that now making againft myfelf was then made againft an acquaintance of the Noble Lord's great uncle. He was a ftranger to me, but— There was here a cry of orde , r, and Mr. Speaker reminded the Hon. Gentleman, that he was wan dering from the queffion then before the Houfe. Mr. Home Tooke continued. I would beg you to confider, Sir, that unlas human minds were framed all alike, it mall be impoffible to judge the tendency of what a man fays, till he comes to the end of it. This lentiment I heard very lately come from that Chair.—l was not, Sir, fitying any thing wide of the queftion in debate. I have long had a ha bit of reafoning, by which I gain moll important • conceffions from thofe, not much inclined to my caufe, or that of liberality, from its being kept a • fecret from thefe Gentlemen, that they were im portant. There are two modes of reafoning. The one begins where the other ends. I ufe the on • or other according to the difpofition of thofe whom I addrefs. When I fpoke of the Grenville Aft, and the caufe of its being enacted, I had an objed in view nearly concerned with this oluellion. An ' attempt of the fame nature with that which gave rife to it is now renewed. If the Noble Lord thall be fuccefsful, he will only have the honour to undo what the Ad of his grand-father has done. In fluence in this Houfe will refume its reign ; power • will be omnipotent, and right will be trampled upon. The Noble Lord Rated the queftion to be ferious—it is rather more ferious than he was aware of. It involves the rights and property per haps of a no inconfiderable number. Not only may it again depend upon the Minifter, whether the lawful Reprefcntative of the people 1110 coo tinue in his feat ; but if the old praelice is reflored, • all private property in boroughs (if there be any loch a thing, Sir), will be completely annihilated ; at leaft it will all be laid at the feet of the Mini , fter. I rejoice to think that this argument mull ; have weight with the bad as well as the good, not only with men of principle, but with thofe altoge : ther unprincipled. A ma„ is never fo fure to fue • ceed as when he can thus add-ers both divifions of mankind. I hope, Sir, my all:Ilion to the Grenville Aft is not now thought fo completely irrelevant. —I apprehend that the lawyers are at the bottom of this motion of the noble Lord's. I know well the modes which thofe Gentlemen purfue in liriv ing to accomplifh their ends. Do not let me be mifunderflood, Sir. I love and honour the pro feffion. I had once a near prolped of becoming a member of it. About five and forty years ago, I believe, the very term in which the prefent Chief Juftice of the King's Bench entered as a (Indent, I myfelf was inrolled. I reverence the proftaion of the Ltwyers ; I with to Gon that I could always approve of their pradice. Their motto, I mull lay, however, is &his an virtu:. About, the jut. tice of the caufe in which they engage, they are not over folicitous, nor are they very fcrnpulous, about the means they employ to gain their ends. l'hey teem here to have withed to make a jumble, a battle, and a fcramble, and by throwing every thing into contrition, to get :t lumping vote. From , ' the pradice I mull nee:lf:tray infer that this has been the advice, and thefe have been the advifers. The rcfult of this clifeuftion is of no great confe-• quence tome. However, I reckon myfelf bound• to refill ads of injuftice and oppieffion, that they may not be drawn into a precedent. I (hall there fore Rate the queflion, and nothing more on my part, I truft, 1611 be neccflary. I (tall be able, I hope, to place it in fo clear a light that it will be underftood by any country gentleman, or even by any lady, as well as by the profoundell lawyer. If the Houfe is to determine whether a perfon who has once been in orders can tit here, it is their du ty firft to confider whether there is any fpecific law againft it? That this queftion mull be decided in the negative is pretty clear from the line of con duet which has been purfued this day. To what other law are you next to retort ? You furely will not rely implicitly upon the opinions of Conn fel, however highly you may think of their know ledge, integrity, and difintereftednefs. Five quef tions immediately prefentthemfelses,for this grand queaion is the fruitful mother of many more. I fhould be very happy, Sir, if all thefe five were decided againft me, for if one of them is decided in my favour, all is loft, ii:/9/ifio down go the conteft and the controverfy. l'he queffion is at prefent in confuted and perplexed that all mull be puzzled with it. It puzzled me, Sir, for tome time ; at laa I fucceeded in reducing it to dillind heads. We mull now have recourfe to the canon law, and afle, in the firft place, whether the canon law legally bind: the procueGngi of the Houfe? I have no intention whatever, Sir, to difcufs the point. I merely with to thew the enquiries the Houfe mull enter into before they come to a determination. We mull next examine whether the canon law is binding upon the Clergy, in the proleffion and out of it, in their civil, as well as religious capacity ? In the third place, is the canon law binding upon me, who have long ceafcd to officiate as.a prieß, and have long laid down that facred cha railer ? Two-others Mu remain behind equally dif ficult of folution, and equally neccffary to be folved. Is it poffible for any one who has once entered into holy orders again to become one of the laity, or is it once a captain, and always a captain ? And fuppofing he mull remain a clergyman all his days, are the duties of a Legiflator incompati• blc with his clerical charader F I know there are three canons on this fubjeel. One rays, a clergy. man (hall not bear arms ; another, a clergyman mall not be a civil magitirate ; and the third, that a alargyman flail' not ufe hirnfelf as a-layman. Cle rical Reprefentatives of the people certainly have not been very common, but we have clerical vo- 1 lunteers and clerical jultices of the peace. • The two &ft canons arc therefore kept back, and the NI only is relied on. It is then to be determined whether a clergyman, by having a feat in this Houfe, does or does not ufe himlelf as a layman? 'I laid I would not argue there points. I throw out there things for the confederation of the Learn ed Gentleman over the way, and I wilh them fully to confider this llaternent. I have great faith to put in their opinion. Let them declare thairj . tlg• meat before the Houfe comes to a final decilion. Having faid In, I cannot hell; advet ting to the elegant tendency of fome things that fell from t the Noble Lord. It mull be allowed that he dif played a liberal, generous, and elevated fpirit ! At the fame time rhope the Houfe will pay little regard to his boailed flake in the country. I too have a flake in the country, and a deep flake. It is not flolen to be fore from a hedge, but I planted it myfelf. This flake, Sir, I would not exchange for all the notes of the Noble Lord, to gether with all the notes of all his conneations. In. this too I think mine is different from his, and far to be preferred to it. His cannot be increafed without detracting from the public flock. Mine is my charaater, and I cannot add to it with Out having added to the information, comfort, and happinefs of the public. Mr. YORKE role to fay a few words on the quef don before the Houfe. He conceived that the rub. kat which had given birth to the prefent dilauf fion was one which, as it wholly regarded the pri vileges of die Houfe, was open to every Gentleman who chore to bring it under confideration. In bringing it under the view of the Houfe, he had his option which mode he fhould -adopt for that purpofe. Whether the mode the Noble Lord had adopted was the one in all relpeets the Moil expe dient, he was not prepared to determine ; but he was unable to fee that it was liable to any very ferious objeetion. The Houle had heard what the Noble Lord had Dated on a former occallon ; they had admitted the fubjeet to be of the utmoil importance ; and to enable them to decide a great conflitutional point,they had, in conformity to a mo tion,called certain perfons to attend at their Bar. He was furprifed to hear the objections which had this evening been produced againit this mode of pro ceeding. Gentlemen admitted that the queflion of the eligibility of Priefis to a Scat in Parliament was highly important in itfelf, and one on which the Houfe was bound, by the flrongeft fenfe of re gard traits rights, to difcufs with the greater at tention ; but they, by an extraordinary inconfil tency, were adverfe to an order whore Objeet was, to afccrtain whether a Member of the Houfe was really in Sacred Orders ? They allowed that the queftion ariling out of the raft was one of the ut conrequence, but they were unwilling to ac cede to any fteps to eflablifh the very faet from which the queftion only could originate. He truft ed, on this ground, that, as the queftion was allow. ed on all hands to be one worthy of the confidera don of the Houfe, and as they had, by a previous Order, called certain perfons to their Bar to prove a fait preparatory to its difauffion, they would now adhere to that Order, and proceed in the regular courfe of proceeding which they had prevroullyl Mr. Fox contended that he had Dill heard no grounds whatever ltated which juflified the pro. pored entitle of proceedings. • The Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Yorke) had Dated indeed that' the evidence of certain perfons would ellabliih particular at et preparatory to the dikuiTion of a great conflitutional queftion, but this was no flata ment of a previous determination of the Houle ti enter at all into the dikullion of this quellion.— He concurred entirely with the RNht Hon. Gen tleman as to the importance of the rubrequent queftion that might arife out of the filet which the witncfres were to prove, and the more important it was, the more neceffary was it not to elver ob the conlideration of it, by violating the long ella Walled orders of Parliament. Mr. Sim tom conceived that much of the difcuf lion which had been introduced into the fpeeelt of the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. H. Tooke) was wholly irrelevant to the quellian under confideration, and profeffed his determination therefore to aircet hi arguments folely to fuch parts of it as teemed tt him to bear on the fubjeet. The Hon. Gentleman had argued againit the neceffity of the motion from his own confection of the fiat it was defianed to eftablifh, and in illuftrating this argument made an application of .t common rule or law, that when the Court have obtained furficient evidence of a fiat, examination becomesunneceffary. On thisprinciple he had contended, that after he admitted the fad of his having been a PrieD, the examination of wit neffes at the Bar to prove it, was altogether nuga tory. This confellion might perhaps be rufficient to bind him as an individual ; but it could not he regarded as valid by the Houk, in a cafe where the rights of other perfons were it:volved. In this cafe it was not merely the rights of the Honourable Gentleman, as an individual, that the Houk were obligated totake under their contideratioraas affect ed by this admiflion, but it was alfo the rights of the Borough of Old Sarum, in the perfon of its Reprefentative. Though there might be a fur. ficient giouud of procedure on this admiflion, in any thing involving the Honourable Gentleman's own intereas, Dill as the interells of other perfons were at the fame time implicated, the Houfe could not, confiDently with their duty, admit it, as fuch evidence as would fanetion any future decifion they might adopt on the general queftion. Having thus endeavoured to invalidate the argument from admiflion, he proceeded to advert to the reafoning of another Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Fox), whom he had ever heard with a high degree of pleafure. From the long experience, the fplendid talents, and extenfive knowledge of - that Honoura ble Gentleman, it was indeed impoffible ever to hear him addrefs the Houfc without expelling to derive information on any fubjeet to which he Icalled their attention. On the prefent occafion he had expeaed that his long experience and intimate acquaintance with the orders of the Houfe, would have enabled him to have Dated precedents eta- I *C blifidto: the illegality of the order, , urged argiiments.u.amif it, en f orc i ng 6, ventem ce hit might he rt.teit • itt this, however, he had been i a during the conrfe of what had f"l,. Honourable Getilletll.ln he heat.: la) fu :alt :nt argument againti the motion. It was in ancient and well-kmorn mat.iin of law, that ex:fiat's just, that it was necetlin y in al: cafes to enablith the faect before the law could, with propriet ) . be applied. This was the general :inkl blithed courfe of pi occ-eding, and this was the principle on winch the motio n was found,..d. 'll,l Houk were either to obtain the knowledge of the fat in the prefect cafe, or witheut li iving obtaineei the neeeffiry knowledge, they were to go into a Committee on the abfiran quellica. If they pre. vioufly obtained the knowledge, they would then be in a capacity of applying the law, tiller they had, in a Committee of Precedents, determined the abaraa quelion. On the other hand, if the..- &ft proceeded to the conliderati.tn of the abfira quellion, whatever determination they might corn to, they would b': unable, from their ignorance of the fad, t, make any applications of the law. The quejlion now before the I lonfe then was in reality, whether they were to examine cerain perfons re :l:idling this Ilia, wh,.m by a previous order they had called to the bar this day, ite.i who now at tend:.d in cotifequence of that command ? or whe ther they were now to tell them, th..t. Cie former order was illegal, and that as the Houle had on a previous night agreed to a motion altogether un contlitutional and unparliamentary i n its nature, they were now unJer the necedity of ditniitling them, without having exasted o: them .tay of that information for which their attendance was required ? Such appeared to him to he the real hate of the quellion before the Houle. In advert. ing to the general gm:lion on which the Houle might be called upon to decide, lie :rafted that however violent political differences might be ou general lubjeas ; however this violence might fometimes unfortunately rife to a degree Mem:lift ent with fair and impartial decilion, he was con vinced that, when the rights of perfuns were con cerned, every feeling of party, every fuggettion of prejudice, would be banifhed from the mind.— Whether the Clergy have, by the principles of the Conflitution, a right to a feat in the Houle, or Whether the public would be benefited or injured by this exclulion, were weighty and important qua . - tions, in the determination of which he was per fuaded that no perfonal or private feelings would enter, but that the decilion of the Houle would be regulated wholly by the principles of public duty. For his own part.he could allure the Hon. Gentleman more immediately concerned, that its fbould apply his mind to the confideration of the fubjea with no deuire but that of arriving at truth ; no with but that of coming to a proper conclufion on a great conflitutional quedion. He concluded by .expreffing his trial that the Houle would adhere to their former order. n• . Mr. RYDER rote chiefly with the Torpor: of . fpeaking to order on the fuhicd. He Ihnrtly deavnured to thew that, in a great variety of cafes, almolt wholly parallel, the Houle hati,Cren ia the • ordinary habit of reforting to written &came:its • in order to ascertain particular fans previous to - entering on the difeuffion of fubjeds of importance. —He mewed that this was done in oaks Tree:l . 4;ly limilar to the prefent, or to others in which parole evidence was neeelrary, and hence argued that the motion was made perft:Clly fair and cootiflent. • He conceived that on This principle it wlis , alnind to enter on the confideration of tile general quer tion, without previotaly a feertaining'the faa, and contended, that all objections againtl this mode of procedure were quite futile till a real i 4 eoald be pointed out betwixt the erred of written and par,'Oe evidence. Mr. Fox role to explain. He !aid the pJints urged by the Right I rralonrable Gentleman who 'lad jutl fat down, had no direct analogy to the :ale before the 'lone. If papers were called ba, :he extent and merit of the evidence could be tole rably afeertaime before they were grantd—if iC ihould be raid that_ a bankrupt could not lc a:iy lit in that Houle, would any examination of evi dence at the Bar be tolerated to prove that the perfon objected to was a Bankrupt ? The Houle was not fully aware of the di:agreeable canl .piences likely to wife from the adoption of the mcafures propofed by the Noble Loro. He was fatisficd that no Gcnticm in that fopported them could produce any precedent for filch a mode of proceeding.—Mr. RyDF.Ft explained. The ATTORNEY-GEN E RA L declared him rl.lf little qualified, as a young Member cf that Honfe, to local: upon any point which involved the conk &ration of its order of proceeding, but upon a quedion of Law, he might perhaps be Inmenh. t competent to date an opinion. He conceived it to be an acknowledged rule or . Law to eftablilh lame belae any time was wafted in the difeudion of an abated queflion, in the dccifion of which that fad might be involved. The Noble Lord had, he conceived, fairly brought the merits of tl e queflion he wifhesi to try before the Houfe, which was undoubtedly the only tribunal competent to decide it—before no other could it have been brought—and the quellion if heard at 311, mull: he heard there. Evidence had been moved for by the Noble Lord in a manly and proper marner, for the purpofe of proving the fails alledged, and though the Honourable Gentleman who was the object of the difcuUion, had offered to admit thole fads, it had been very justly Rated from the Chair, that fuch an admillion could not be received .is evidence. The Houfe had ordered certain perfors moved for by the Noble Lord to attend on this day, and thole Gentlemen were now attending in purfuance of that order, for the purpofc of hein; called to the Bar of the Houle, to give that evi dence for which they had been fummoned. Why Ihould not there Gentlemen be called in ? Why entertain a dircullfion of an al:Arad yucftion, which it was not yet known would be rendered neceffary It was meeting a cafe st about any falls whereon to found it, and would only tend to (loftily and amide the Houk, without elucidating any ufefut point. Let the (ample fa& of the cafe be after- Laced, and then the quellion .which arc& out of