Star. — London, England, 1828-04-01 00:00:00

- e Moat %loin % I, than period, any N. was an t e hope' tat only (mew iat theta o of tie the ab ! iov ever, felt as nore en ,000,000 gely de ll' year, 'ad bees r:ers itn ustly the E foreiga interests, and said against be mote o be 'the itotection .oceed on egos, the increased tic ularly sequence urably to e that, in ning said interest. he Presi proposed I interest. is speech it impos nsition to friend to he mu 4 fixed and e trade in any other i que•tios iercial or landlords the scale on miAht in s still it ice of his Fing been ere to he i the side ould not The scale n average ted upon After a o be now sequence.? appear to played by &lid that House of wed at 114 admitted e made.* belantied due yea try. _ he fall ct the meas. that tht d cepimetl mgt then? course this vibes he shall lar 'threw ty Rs. at the J. Those s that the The!:lon. sttea that last Sas hbridisie;) I him iss that the eat mast t was jet Gro tO -,......... the day when a better feeling would arise; and he was confident that there was no mole effectual way of making corn cheap than by protecting the landed in terests. In confirmation of this opinion, he might re fer to the history of the last 150 years, when the old rules of protecting duties, and corresponding bounties on exportation, were in force. There were no bounties iacluded in the present Bill, and the omission was, in his judgment, a defect. The prices were then steady—they were now variable. Though he thought the present Bill was better than the last,, some alteration should be made in the warehousing system, some improvement introduced in the mode of taking the averages, and a drawback or bounty should be afforded on exportation. The Hon. Baronet con-, eluded by declaring, that in his opinion the pica of barley and oats should have been decidedly kept up by the new law. As these would be future opportunities for discussion, he would not at the then moment intrude farther upon the House; but the proposition altogether was not one with which he could profess himself satis fied, although he thought it better than that of the last Session. _ . _ Colonel SIBTHORPE concurred in opinion with the lion. Members for Wiltshire and Somersetshire (Mr. "knelt and Sir T. Lethbridge) that it was highly rre cessary to keep up the price of bailey and oats. The quantity of oats imported, he understood, into this cm.intry from Ireland, in the short period only between the sth of January and the 22d of March in the present ) ear, had been more than 165,000 quarters; and if he was not much deceived, it would be found that the greater proportion of those oats had been previously br, ught from foreign markets into Ireland, to the de struction of the grower here at home. Unless a decided protection was given by the new law to oats and barley, a stagnation in the home production of those article. must be the consequence. Mr. Secretary HUSKISSON said, he thought the course pursued by Honourable Gentlemen in now en tei ing so much at length into the subject, was some what anomalous. He should not at present go into a ide field of discussion, nor should he have troubled the House at all, were it not for the remarks of some lion. Gentlemen, who said they would not make any remark at all. With respect to what had fallen from the lion. Gentleman who spokelast, he could assure him that not a single bushel of foreign oats had, as he sup po,ed, been smuggled into Ireland, and from thence found its way here. Any foreign oats. which came into the country were openly imported. There was a necessity for admitting the article, in consequence of the great dearth which prevailed. But, as he stated before, not a single bushel was imported in the manner alluded to. It was not probable that any thing of the kind could have occurred, or that airy person, for a distant chance of profit, would run the risk of making such an attempt 4)11 the I,ce of very severe penalties. Tue Member for Somersetshire (Sir T. Lethbridge) complained of the ports having been opened to admit the introduction of foreign oats. Now he thought, if there wac any point which received general assent towards the close of last Session, it was the propriety, under existing circum stances, of admitting foreign oats into the market. All seemed to have been fully agreed on the necessity of , such a step. Indeed this necessity was proved by the admission of the Hon. Baronet himself, who said, that between two and three million quarters of foreign grain found a market here. It would appear, that to satisfy the Member for Somersetshire, they must introduce all the regulations which existed in 1814. The Hon. er said, that at one period of the year the duty was as high as 2/. Os. Bd. and that even at that high rare foreign corn found its way into the market The amount of duty paid at the period alluded to, did not arise from corn alone. Was he not aware that barley, oats, Indian corn, and flour paid duty as well as corm? During three ae. Its of February this year, the duty was 21. 0.. Bd. bor it he looked to the returns for each week he would find, that the amount of import was nil, nil, nil. The price was 51s. the quarter, at this period. The returns the:el le proved that the Hon. Member's apprehensions of danger on this point were carried somewh. t too far. The Honourable Member concluded that, because the price fell from 60s. to 525. that fall must be the result of the measure adopted last year. In considering, how. ever, that tall of price, there were other circumstance; that should be borne in mind. It most be remembered that there was an abundant harvest well secured; and that, at former periods, experience proved the result of new measures, when proposed, was to occasion a greater importation, from an apprehension that any new area stile might prove unfavourable. Tnos, increased importation na:urally produced a fall of price. If, however, the Honourable Member looked to the price in February last•ywati he would find that it was nearly the same as . .124 February, and he entertained little doubt that in July next the price would not vary very much from what it was in July,. 1827. His Hon. and Learned Friend (Mr. Ferguson) seemed to apprehend— seemed to feel sortie alarm, as thinking that the inte-est; of the gross ers of oats would be overborneby the mea sure now proposed. Did his Hon. Friend forget that last year a material alteration had been made on!ti e proposed scale, in favour of oats—that the alteration amounted to the whole difference bete/ern 211. and 25i. saile no change took place with respect to the wheat ? Tee protection to oats appeared - tablas to be quite out or proportion to . that • extended to' oilier articles. It had been observed in the course of thirdiscn.sion, that the plan now submitted to the El 'vie differed id no re spect from the priipsition of the Member for Dorsetshire (Mr. Banker) last Session. His proposition• was,' that the pivot, as it was called, on which tf e scale r tight to tut ii was 645. The scale now proposed was, however, quite different in otter respects. Last year the duty proposed was 225. the price being 60;. the quarter,. whereas now the duty was 261. Bd. at the same piee.• The Member for Br idgenorth (Nlr.Whitmore) and other Hon. gentlemen, professed to abstain from ditcussi n' at present, but yet' took an opportunity of stating, though concisely, what their opinions were. In fairness: to the House and t r the Government, he thought• those Hon. Gentlemen who had other Resolutions to propose, should bring them forward now. They would then have an opportunity of considering them altogether, and of judging which were most likely to give general sati•faction. if they had not the arguments of thosei Honourable Gentlemen, they should at least have their , Resolutions. His Honourable Friend (Mr. Whitmore)r said he would oppose the plan now proposed; and he seemed to think that it was the very same, in ipsitaintis' cerbir, as the plan proposed last Session. Except in' one point, there certainly was no great difference. The principle of both was to take the two extremities of a' Proposed scale, and to commence at these extremities a rise or fall of duties. In the scale ri last year the • price taken was 70.. at which the duty was to be only' nominal. The price being 60s. the duty proposed was' such as would e ff ec t ua lly preven t or greatly impede the admission of foreign corn. He was now free to state, a. he stated last year, that lie considered 60s. the price off protection; that at a price between 60s and 655. foreign corn should be admitted sparingly ; but that above 655. every facility should be giien. It was distinctly stated' •......1.....^. List year that the measure then proposed was not ex petted to be final, but that it would be open to any im provements which experience might suggest. Ilethought experience, so far as it had gone, hitherto fully justified the alterations now introduced. It appeared that 500.000 quarters of foreign corn came into the market when the duty was at 20s. It was fair, therefore, to conclude that 20s. was not a sufficient protection. It was upon this ground an attempt was now made by the proposed scale of duties to throw some additional impediment—some heavier drag on the introduc tion of foreign' corn. By increasing the duty between the prices of 60s. and 645. the two points contended for last year, it was thought that all parties might he satisfied. In the present proposition there was no change of principle from that of last year. There were many causes in operation since last Session, to account for the increased introduction of foreign grain, which were nut likely to occur again. The power given to the Crown to authorize importation at 12s. a quarter must have had the effect of causing the introduction of a larger supply than would have taken place under other circumstances. In August last they were blest with fine weather, and the prospect of an abundant harvest. The natural consequence was, that the holders of foreign corn were induced to throw it more rapidly into the market than they would have done if appearances at home were not so favourable.— This incident having produced such an effect out of doors, he fully agreed with his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Grant) that they ought to legislate on the principle of something like an award between fair claims on one side, and hopes and apprehensions on another, on the prin ciple of adjustment between two great and leading in ter-sts in the country, two most important classes of society, either of which might be induced to sup pose that their interests were sacrificed to the other. Considering all the difficulties by which this subject was encumbered, and the state of the public mind with respect to it, he thought the present proposition was mo:e likely than any other which could be submitted to the House, to abate, and finally put an end to angry feelings. The Member for Suffolk (Sir T. Gooch), professed his admiration of the law as it stood in 1815. For himseP, lie must say, that he de precated nothing more than the constant fluctuations of price, which were mainly attributable to that state of the law, and which continued during 12 years. He sup- ported it, it was true, but he now freely confessed that he was in error. He should be ready to prove at any future period that the law of which the Honourable Member for Suffolk professed so much admiration, had occasioned a gteat -destruction of agricultural capital, and produced lower prices than could have arisen under any other system. Ile therefore differed in opinion upon this point with the Honourable hlem ber tier Suffolk, who lie trusted would be consoled for the overthrow of the system he so much admired, when found it had done nothing but injury. The mode of taking the averages proposed in the present measure was the same as had been hitherto acted upon. The Mem ber for Suffolk told tirem, that when the average price was 52, he himself received 60, for his corn in the London market. This at least was a proof that the averages did not work unfavourably for the c on of Suffolk, and he was glad it worked so favouraEly for his Hon. Friend. Colonel SIBTHORP, in explanation, said, the great consumption of oats.last year was occasioned by the dearnesi of bay. Sir T. LE THBRIDGE explained. The last lot of corn whic!) was taken out of bond on the 15th Novem ber, amounted to 8,700 quarters, which paid a duty of 21. Os. Bd. a quarter. The coin taken out last Septem ber pal.' a duty of 11. 4s. Bd. the quarter. Mr. FIIROVSON txplained. Mr. 13A1tING thought it would be unnecessary that the Committee should give the Resoluti .ns more con sideration than was in their power by merely hearing them read from the Chair, before it could come to any determinatrop. The Resolutions had certainly been in. troduced with great candour, and he would own that he had apprehended somethng much worse. He was afraid they were' io have the continuance of a system %strict) was not worth a straw as a protection to agri- culture, and which would certainly at one time or other produce a famine in the country. When they looked at the increasing population of the country, could any mar, of common sense, or common honesty. or common feeling, object to have a depot of corn in the country, to preserve such a population from the danger of famine? With three years of good harvests we wet e still importing corn. The vast mass 01 our people were employed at wages by which they could scarcely live; and they were employed by masters Mho could scarcely make a living profit of their CA pitrl. If this was the case when corn was at 52r. what was the danger if corn. rose to 675. or 70.,.? what was to become of the agriculturist if the manufacturers were unable to purchase their earn? Tory were now as low as they could with safety he brought; and if further de pressed mast return on the cou , ory as paupers. Bid as the ohi law was, he was doubtful w Nether the present would be an improvement. With the prohibitory law on the Statute B ok, the Mini,ter of the dry was very properly afraid to trust to the law, and every year ob• tained an Act fur importation, which did much more injury to the agricultural interes than a regular im portation. Still he was confident that Ministers could not have obtained better terms for the country than was contained in the present resolutions; and his doubt was whether it would not be better to live under the arbi. trary state of the law which was dependant on the dis cretion of Ministers. He would say, that wheat passing 60s. with such a high duty as that imposed by the reso• tions was too dangerous to venture on. If wire a was to pass 60.. he thought Government would be obliged to interfere to admit importation. Mr. Secretary PEEL expressed his surprise at what had just fallen from the Honourable Member who last addressed the House—that the old system was better than that now proposed. He had thought that of all men in the House tire Honourable Member was most strongly impressed with the conviction that some fixed system of duties would be preferable to that which had hitherto existed, which was so lax. For his own part, ho confessed that, for the settlement of the relations between landlord, and tenant, and the arrangement of the trade in corn, he thought Government was called upon to adopt some fixed system. lie con curred in thinking that nothing could be more in. secure than a system which was at one time infringed by Parliament, and at another by Government ; and therefore he was surprised, alter what the Honourable Member had stated last year, that he should not see the advantage of the proposed system of duties beyond those of the law as it already existed. He admitted that there were extreme opinions on both sides on this subject, but he did not vote for the present measure as giving way to the prejudice on either side, but because he considered it an equitable adjustment between interests which were essentially the same, but which had been for a time eonsidered diffeteat, and because he thought :his would do much to reconcile both panics. When they eonbideted the duty ptoposed when the average -; ----, price wa5.,60.. they should not leave out rif their con sideration what had been done by another Branch of the Legislature, where the tame duty was proposed till the average pike rose to 665. lie did not approve of that alteration, nor did he mention it as a set-off to the scale now proposed, but merely to show what dii. ferent opinions we re ente rta i n ed on t hi s subject. How ever,it should be recollected that the Lords fixed at 665. that scale of duty which the Commons had pro posed for the average of 60,. and he owned, that if the Government of that day could have believed that the Bill so amended would be acceptable to that House, they would have consented to the alteration, with the view to the settlement of the question. His Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Huskisson), and his other Right Hon. Friends at that time in the Government, would, he be lieved, have related their opinion, and consented to the amendment on that ground. He mentioned this to to show, that there was no inconsistency in any Mem ber now accepting with gratitude the measure before the House, as it would have the effect of settling the question at last. He therefore supported this, not merely because it tended to reconcile parties, but because it was reasonable in itself. Li the end of the last Session a Bill was passed to admit into the market some c ern then in bond, but was it with the same advantage as the present measure would ensure ? It was found that for several weeks large quantities were imported et different rates of duty. . Now, one great advantage of the proposed measure would be t that the importation being gradual, would prevent those sudden gluts which a rose from importa tions under the old system. By the Act of last Session corn was not to be admitted after May, but in the un certainty of the state of the harvest, the admission was irregular. But let the House see what was done under that Act. When the price was 60s. and the duty 24:. in the week ending 13Eli July, 13.000 quarters were introduced into the market. In the neat week the price was 6h. and the duty 225. Bd. 47,000 quar ters came in. In the week ending Jaly 27, 50,000 quarters were brought in at the same duty. In the hol lowing week 36,000 quarters at the s +me duty. In the succeeding week 26,000. In the week following 178,000 quarters were brought in at the same duty of ;:2s. bd. In the next week 82,000, at a duty of 245. in the week after 3,700, and the next week 32,625 quarter-, at the same duty. Nrw these quantities were intro duced and influenced by the uncertainty of th- 1a.., and the irregular mode of its operation ; and this he thought was conclu-ive against such limitations as existed under that system. lie fully concurred with the Honourable Member as to the great importance of the agricultural classes ; and he thought that nothing should be done which would have the effect of lowering that highly-respectable class in the social or political scale; but there was nothing in the measure before the House which could have that effect. He agreed with the Hon. Gentleman as to the pro gressive increase of our population, and that we mist depend to a certain extent on foreign importation lot part of our supply of corn; but it did not follow, that if we imported more than before, our agriculture should be 'consideteJ as declining. Importation might still.go-on, and agriculture continue to flourish. If the farmer raised less corn, it might be found that he made more by the produce of his dairy, and got a better price for his milk and cheese. It he found that land was thrown out of the cultivation of corn in the neighbourhood of London and Man chester, he might also ascertain that larger quantitie of it were devoted to pasture, and that the farmer made an equal profit in that way. But when it was admitted that this counts y did n a produce corn enough for its consumption, let the House look to another country, whose interests %vete so intimately bound up with our own, and whose capability of production was all wed on all bands; and let it be recollected that in proportion as we encouraged foreign importation, we should do that which would be an injury to Ire land. He did not say that we 'should abstain from all importation of foreign corn for the sake of Ireland, but.still we should not lorget w hat was due to that country, and that in proportion as we crested a market for her corn, we enabled her to purchae our manufac tures. He would not occupy the attention of the liou-e longer on this subject, but he could not sit down with out congratulating it oo the temperate t'.ne of the discussion, and the total ab-tnce et all patty feelings. He would follow that excel'ent example, for he should be ashamed of him-elf it lie said a word which could give rise to the introduction of any topic of that kiiid on .his subject. He would make one remark on what had fallen from the lion. B ironet opposite. The Hon. Baronet had said, that in a week in Novemb-r, 7,886 quarters of wheat had Leen imported when the duty WAS at 21. Os. Bd. This be considered must be a mistake, and if lie looked at the head o' the r. turn in which the introduction of that quantity WAS mentioned, he would find that it was a t eturn of he duty, not only on wheat, but on other corn, and also on meal and flour. He admitted that parties whose corn was in bond would rather sell it at any profit than let it be spoiled, hut they could not aff rd to let it out at that ditty. In conclusion, he would repeat, that he voted for the proposed measure, not merely to give way to the prejudice of two patties, but because he considered it an equitable adjustment, in which the in. terests of both were equally - attended to, and because it would prevent those fluctuations unavoidable under the old system. He knew it would not have the effect of keeping the rice below 60s. for that depended on a variety of causes over which no human foresight could have any contrriul, but, under all the circumstances, he thought it the measure which would go nearest to reconciling all parties. Mr. BARING explained. Mr. HUME could not give a silent vote, because lie considered the Resolutions were framed with the inten tion of favouring the aristocracy at t• e expense of the population. He deprecated the idea of legislating to avoid differing with the other House. In legislating, the House ought to look to principle, and follow the practice adopted in other articles of manufacture, either by imposing a fixed duty, or an ad valorem duty, and not render the great mass of the population dependent upon the higher orders Too much had been done for the agricultural interest, and he knew nc.t what right they had to demand a high rate of duty. It WAS the duty of Ministers to look to the interest of the two great bodies of the State, viz. the commercial as well as the agricultural. But the fact was, that the Cabinet were taking the part of the latter in preference to the former ; and ,was it possible that, under such circumstances, the country could remain quiet ? He did not see any reason ss hy the consumer was to be im poverished. It was with the view of trying the prin ciple, of which he had given notice, that he should, after the holidays, propose a permanent rate of duty— that is, when corn was imported and bonded, it should not be taken at a higher rate of duty than fifteen shil• lings, which was more than they had a right to demand. Mr. flume took occasion to observe, with reference to this display, that if the Honourable Members who were so eloquent—(A laugh)—would prove that he was wrong, he would with pleasure double the amount of ~....~ "1g1i0rvw. , .. ,, T ,,, rvi • • " duty. When he nia.le lis proposition Ire soars/ al o propose to reduce the scale Is. until it came to Ios. which he should propose as a permament rat•. Barley he would fix at 9s. decreasing Is. until it settled at 7s. These were the principal points of his Resolutions. Colonel WOOD was Trite sure the propositions fif the Hon. Member never could be maintained. In years of•sdarcity neither 10s.nor any other similar duty would' avail. With respect to the present scale of duties, he thought them preferable to the scale of last year, and therefore would support them. Colonel TRENCH had heard with pleasure the sup: gestion of the Right Hon. Secretary. He was r et fecti r convinced that the extension of agriculture into Ireland would tend to insure peace and tranquillity in that kingdom. Sir FRANCIS BURDETT said, though he agreed with much that had been said on both sides of the House, his opinion was, that a free trade in corn would be most beneficial to the landed interest and the public at large. He felt strongly persuaded that the three Right Honourable Gentlemen who had sprken, were strongly inclined to that view of the subject. He should not at present enter into the subject, but would spe cifically call the attention of the House to it dump the Session. He felt confident that the real question• was mistaken—that it was not so much a question of Corn as of Currency. All our distress was .fictitious, and in the midst of substantial wealth, our agricultural, commercial, manufacturing, and shipping interests are all depressed, in consequence of the altera tions that bad been made its the currency. Nothing could be more unfounded, or have a worse effect, than to hold out that the different classes of the community had divided interests—nothing cnuld be more fal , e, than that one could flourish and the o hers be depressed ; they were all one, and gresi out of agriculture as their root— manufactures were nothing more than the surplus of age 'cultural produce worked up into other cornm•rditier. What was said by hi► Hon. Friend below him (Nlr.Hume) was perfectly true : the importation of corn gave employ ment to the manufacturer, and promoted the pros perity of the c , ontry. He only offered one observation at present, because he would not have it supposed that he acquiesce.; in the present resolut'ons. A permanent system was greatly to be preferred to fluctuations; but how the present measure could be permanent he could not imagine, when the currency was not fixed, the fl lc tuations in which had been the cause of all other fluctua tions. The currency was formed on 'a system of high prices; and if the state of the country was to be im proved, and the condition of the people raised, it must be effected through the currency. The manufacturers had found out, that cheap bread brought them no good; and if the country was to be relieved, it must be done by enlarging the currency. He should, however, call the attention of the House spec fically to the subject. Mr. WARD (London) said, it any thing could re concile him to the Resolutions, it was that the bonding system was not to be interfered with. The Huse could not prevent corn being warehoused, it could only de ternone whether corn should be warehoused here or on the other side the water—(Hear.)—lt coin was ware housed on the other side, an i a war broke out, it might be taken by the enemy. The quantity of corn landed in this•country last year, if warehoused on the Conti nent, would require 100;000 tons of shit ping. and 6,000 ►eamen, to bring it to this country, and this at a time when we might. be using every effort to man a fleet. In November and December last, the foreign exchanges were against this country. and it we hid had the misfortune of having a bad harvest, that required a large importation of corn ; the con,:equence might be most calamitous to the country. Mr. W. WHITMORE said, as he had been called on to state what his plan of importation was, he would merely state, that it was precisely the sans he sub nutted to the llou•e last Session, When v. h eat was at .555. lie proposed that it should be imported, at a duty of 10s. a quarter. The Resolutions were then agreed to. Mr. HUSKISSON said the Resolutions should be -• printed, and with the approbation of the House, an early day should be appointed for their further 'consideration. • Mr. MONCK said he thought it was impossible to settle the question of corn, a•i• front settling that of cur rency. It was currency, and currency alone, that must determine what was price. He thought the present measure would be generally mischievous. It was resolved that the Chairman should report progress, and ask kave to sit again. The House resumed, and the Resolutions were ordered to be taken into further consideration ou Tuesday, the 15th of April. • The Freeholders in Districts Bill was read a second time,mi the motion of Mr. Syssa. On the motion of Lord Joim Russets., the Pentyn Distrait. chisement Bill was read a thiid time and passed.. - On the motion of Lord JouN Ilussau., the Corporation and Test Acts Repeal Bill was read a third time. On the motion that this Bill do now pass Mr. JOHN SIIITH said he could not suffer this Bill to pass without returning his best thanks to the Noble Lord who had se ably and so zealously exerted himself on this important question. The Bill was then passed. On the qoestion for recommitting the Citlei and Boroughs Polls Bill, Mr. ISARING objected to the Bill, on the ground that it would tend to produce mole difficulties than it affected to remove. Under the law as it at present stands, the Returning Officer was vested with sufficient power, nor would the increasing the number of places for taking undisputed votes remove the impediments which, it was supposed, exist in taking Polls. The Hon. Member went through the cl.tusrs of the Bill, and came to the conclusion that they would be inoperative for the purposes of inducing a better mode of taking Polls. He theiefote moved that the House go into the Com mittee this day six months. Mr. ROBERTSON seconded the amendment. He agreed with the Honourable Member that the Bill was objectionable in its principle, and in the details of it. Mr.W. SMITH was quite convinced that the subject was of the greatest importance, and therefore he was not disposed to dismiss the Bill altogeth:r ; which, if the amendment was agreed to, would be the effect. He instanced the case of the N,rwich Election, in which no sort of inconvenience was felt during the elections for taking the polls. The lionoui able Member thought, that if Members wished to put elections on the tooting mo mostot months. p H e e r, h th a e d y no wouldobj ob j ec t ion i o o t n postpone s p t o i%o t n p e on t h e e t hßei consider ation for stx s tit respect to . Lor o d f L th o e w ßiL i t. E ll ß att s e a r id th . e t r a l t ida u y i Nor wich, the cause why Elections were disposed of 'o soon in that city was, that no objections were raked to the votes of paupers. With respect to the Bill, some t f the details were objectionable, but upon the whole, he thought the Bill Would be beneficial for the object which the framer had in view, if certain alterations were made in it. These, however, would go to render ti e provisions nugatory, and therefore he wouldrecomonend die Hon. Mensbei to Withdraw it, and subs' itute ano ther upon a more simple nature. Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN adverted to the El. C. Owls for tlse,City of Londun,which generally terminated its ii; days. Now, that was not the case at a place *here a relation of the Noble Lord war a candidate ; ••••1r ... 7 'I it i~ 4 ~~ [ l l