Star. — London, England, 1827-05-23 00:00:00

t he arrest was at that time very inconsiderable.—• This was a simple statement. But if his Honourable Friend shodid think proper to ask him what he con ceived to have been the reason of the delay, which had b e en so bitterly complained of, lie begged to decline answering the question—(A laugh). Should anybody ten him, that one Judge, had been only able to de cide in a Term, sometimes two causes, and some times one cause, and at other times, not a cause at all, h e would say to him. that is not the question; but the ,question is, whether an active and intelligent Lord Chat:cello: - with tire assistance which is given to him, ought not to be able to go through she business of the c oni c, and from what had been done by the Vice-Chan celor, of which they had exiserience, he•saw no reason fora doubt upon the subject, and must therefore enter his protest against a measure which, by creating new o ffi c e s , would be only imposing additional burdens opou the country, and giviag less to do to three .ledges, than it had been clearly proved they. could dispatch with ease. He admitted that the Lord Chan cellor had, in addition to the causes he had already meal. t:nned, Lunatic causes to kear, and Appeals in the House of Lords. Of these Lunatic causes, some did certainly last for a coosiderable time—yet, he believed that number seldom exceeded a dozen in the year, and he had no doubt that a Lord Chancellor who was blessed with youth, health, and activity, they would only furnish busi • nes- for a very brief period. He knew that it was, in the contemplation of the Lord Chancellor to apply himself to a mode or abridging the voluminous proceedings on bankrupt petitions in the Court of Chancery, which would diminish the labour to a degree hardly conceiv able. He thought the House ought, at least, to allow him (the Lord Chancellor) to make the experiment. He stated on authority, in the first place. that it was his (the Lord Chancellor's) intention. to make the attempt, and he had no doubt, that, under the conduct of that Learned person, it would succeed. Any person who real the news even without posessing any knowledge DI ON law, must see from the number of affidavits, re• plies, rejoinders, and surrejoinders. which are put in that Couit,that theremust be some fault in its Constitution. This fault, be believed, had been much inchased by an ever-anxious disposition upon the part o 1 the late Lord Chancellor, that nothing which could be either said or done, should be left unsaid or undone. That Noble and Learned person - appeared anaious even to satisfy the losing party, and forgot that decision and not doubt, was necessary. He would now proceed to advert to a question which had been asked by his Hon. Friend.— The question was. what had become of the Bill which had been brought forward by the Lord Us ancellor ? He wished to remind his Hon. Friend that this Bill had not been brought forward in the last Session. la was brought fowatd by the Noble and Learned individual as the organ ot a Commission during this Session while Mas ter of the Rolls, he believed in November. For himself, he had always been of opinion that that Bill would dis appoint the public; for, although he approved cor dially of the principle, he conceived that it war at once useless and unnecessary to bring into Parliament a cum brous Bill to do that which could be better done by the Lord Chancellor in his own Court. The Chancellor, he repeated, was then only the organ of the Commis- snap, and he felt that the greater part cf the improve. assents proposed in the Bill did not require the sanction ot Parliament, but might have been better made by the Lord Chancellor, as he had before stated. He, there-, toe, put it to the House whether, in the present stale of the country, and the Court, it would not be more just, and more decorous upon their parts to give the Lord Chancellor the opportunity of trying his experiment, than by a summary process to at once subvert the Cnnsti.ution of the Court of Chancery? He consi erred the measure of his Honourable Friend to be premature at best, and by no means advisable. He felt no alarm with respect to the dunes of the Court of Chancery being too great to be done by three Judges. His Hoaourable Friend had alluded to the opinions of Sir Samuel Rousilly, and he therefore wished to re, mind ham that Sir Samuel Romilly had not thought even, the appointment of a Vice Chancellor necessary a and that therefore his Honourable Friend had not his autho rity in defence of the change which he proposed in the constitution of that Court. His Hon. Friend referred to the opinions given before the Commission, and par ticularly to one given by an Hon. and Learned Member Shadwell). It was, that the Court of Chancery could not be relieved from the weight of business with laud it was overwhelmed by three angels. He, o' come, supposed that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman maant angels of that sort who sit behind seals. If that 800. Gentleman was crn , - attuned, they would find is. His Honourable and ike upon him to say that lest what three ordinary , m. He thought that that . and Learned Gentleman, thoukh he agreed with him in dispatch and vigour had that no three angels could business. As it was then, men of ordinary capacities idling it. On these grounds Oise , although proposed by his whom, from the great and minute at had the subject, he, in some uses-, tof authority, and whose always received with at, send woold do him the justice (the Attoreey-General) since be. House, always did differ from the Lord Chancellor ne sentiments still, and on ,position. ressed his surprise, that measure which the enforced with the . House, and of which warmest commendation. fed that that Noble gan of a Commis ed opinions in some lied in the Bill. It illuminati in that the Bill. They had most excellent, and that House; but nose of the much abused the mode in which ~had been recognis had in the strongest rich respect to the abuse of the B ink /. The Honour cast ,peech of Lord Eldon 's The Bankrupt Lties iciently large to de- I be meant only ordinary angels. His I Learned Friend would not take upor I 44 arch-angel might not effect whs Nigel' might fail to perform. He e expression of the Honourable and Lea was one of some levity. Although he a supposing, that unless more dispatcl o been infesedinto that Court, that no I e relieve it from its weight of business. be had no doubt that three men of o ir were fully capable of dispatching it. ,e be would oppose the motion, althoug d lion. Fiiend, to whom, from the get O tention which he %ta4 paid the subject 1 sure, looked opots 4.5 4 scut of auto nt opinions on every sulkieet he always se tention. But his Hon:Friead world d, to acknowled g e that he (the Attorney re had had a seat in that House, alwal cf him in r inking assistance to the Lc re cessary. He preserved these sentim of them he founded his opposition. of Mr. 1). W. HARVEY expressed g there should be any opposition to a r ▪ present Lord Chancellor had lately J 1 'hole weight of his talent in that He rd he had spoken in terms of the wartne :h lie was astocished at bearing it state of Ind Learned Pawn was only the orl b e 'lon and that be himself entertained he measure difeient from those embodis ig oat 11strange to hear from the legal , ose, that there was nothing in th as concocted a system declated to be m i re which only wanted the sanction of tha Id they had come round to the opinions c he 16 cd Eldon. At a very early periods .11 tißilaikrupt Laws were administered, a bl Lord Eld on as l u ll o f et: ors . ll e 1 r I "Page expressed his opinions wi ▪ bands Carried on, and declared the a 5J r"Di Law s a disgrace to the country. 31errher read an extract from a spees Ih confirmatio n cf this opinion. TI "e'e in themselves an object außicH mand the attention of the greatest Man; yet they were not willing to sever them from the Great Seal. What were the Bankrupt Laws simply ?• What was. their object? lie would say, although people endeavoured to impress the idea, that these laws required long study and painful investigation, they were, in facr, little else than laws of common sense applied to a common ob ject. They were intended to give a facility in cases of bankruptcy. First, their object was to accumulate 'the remnant of the bankrupt's means; next, to divide it justly among his creditors; and, lastly, to give some trifle to the bankrupt to start again in the world, provided it appeared that he was not guilty of dishonesty. If he had been dishonest, those laws were able to punish ' him. These were the objects of the Bankrupt Law,. ' How were these simple laws administered? By a Com mission of 72 persons, than whom a more incompetent T:bunal could not be imagined. It was said to be tie. ' cessary, in order to administer these laws, to possess experience and learaing ; but this Commission consisted of persons of no experience; persons to whom 4001. a year was an object! Who served a sort of appren ' ticeship to experience, but contrary to the usual way, for instead of paying a premium for the little informa tion they might acquire, were themselves paid. They were :generally lads of promise, possessing Parlia mentary interest, and family influence; they were not unfrequently men who had mistaken their talent, who, after passing half a century at the Chancery bar, without a brief, had at last succeeded in getting this 4001. a year to smooth their exit from a weary life. Among the 72 there were not six properly qualified. He wished that any Honourable Member desirous of informing him self of the mode in which these laws were adminis tered would go to Guildhall, and there he would feel and see the necessity of removing such a crying nuis ance. There were fourteen petty Courts, and five Commissioners to each. Three made a quorum. These Commissioners were not paid a regular salary, but derived their income from making business to the prejudice of the creditor. He wished some Members could see one out of the three Commissioners sitting with a little hook in his hand, ready to stop any attor ney who might perchance be about to retreat without remembering to pay the IL note. lie wished they could see the manner in which this was pocketted as if it were a God-send; and their anxiety to see if the two hews were expired at the end of which they gut their fee, and how they endeavoured to get up a meeting by which they might obtain another. It was, in short, an exhibition most disgusting to men of character and feeling. The law appeared to be, in fact, administered in opposition to the suiter cases in all their different gradations and stages of inquiry, from the first meeting to the final audit of the accounts, they were all carried ort in the same place, and amid,t the most deperate clamour, no Judge presided, no principle was recog nised. If he had not already trespassed too long upon the time of the House, he would proceed to delineate the character of that Court; he would read, in proof of the uncertainty that prevailed in that Court, an ex tract from the work of Mr. Montague, who was him self a Commissioner of Bankrupts. (The Learned Gentleman here read an extract from Mr. Montague's work, descriptive of the state of the Court). He then proceeded to say that the Attorney-General had ob served, that no plan had been suggested. He was not one of those who was favourable to the reception of , complaints, unless accompanied by some adequate re medy. He was no party man, nor ever bad been, and, therefore, the House could not suppose him to be ac tuated by party feelings in what he had to say. With respect to suggesting a plan, were any one to set them• selves to guess one it would be impossible that he should, even by any perversion, to stumble upon a worse than that which existed. He would suggest a plan, how ever, which, if not the best in the world, was, at least, infinitely superior to the present. It was this, that, instead of seventy-two Judges, who, from the cir cumstances under which which they were placed, were as little capable of getting through their load of businei:, as an H , nourable and Learned Gentleman “ought," that five Judges should be appointed with liberal salaries, one to preside in each Court ; and that 2111 causes, instead of coming before the fourteen Courts, shoul I be only brought before the fives Cases would then be brought under the notice individually, and from the ex reme simplicity of the Bankrupt Laws, and from the complete knowledge of them usually possessed by mercantile men, he was of opinion, that no appeal would be necessary; but still there ought to be a power of appeal, and that it might be made with most ad vantage to three out of five of tbose Judges, and from them an ultimate appeal might be made to the Lord Chancellor. He was convinced that there would be scarcely ten appeals in the course of the year to the Lord Chancellor. He was anxious to explain Iris motives for a motion which be had 'Omitted to the House, for a return of the annual amount of fees in matters of bankruptcy (we understood the Learned Gentleman to say), for the last fourteen years. Astonishment had been expressed at what was deemed his bold assertion, that those fees amounted last year to 32,0001. 15s. Id. but in the result, to which he wished to call the attention of the House, it was proved that they actually did amount to 32,2121. Ils. 2d. He was anxious to explain his sno tives, because he believed some Hon. Gentleman on that occasion had left the House with an impression that he had asserted that 20,00 W. out of that sum had gone into the pocket of the Lord Chancellor. It bad, been stated by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman oppo- ' site, that all these things were to be rectified by the, Noble and Learned Lord who pre,ides in the Court of Chancery, in a manner so satiafactory to the public, and so honourable to himselE He (sir. Harvey)' was willing to hoots for everything from the new Go vernment. The nation, he believed, expected much from them. They had succeeded in reaching the summit of sue cess ; but if they imagined that the country could be de luded into a submission to their Government, without reaping some corresponding benefit, the Gentlemen would be much delude d thensselves. Many questions which pressed for discussion had been deferred; but this was not one a hich could be so treated. Were we•now to be told, that those one hundred and eight proposi tions, which had been the subject of one hundred and eighty-eight eulogiums, were to be all set aside, and that nothing was wanted but that the Chancellor should interpose with a few regulations, and that all de,layv were to cease for ever? if any man's judgment was so slender as to believe this, he (Mr. Harvey) would believe that party madness might be cartied to a most extravagant length ; but he thought the persop who could so believe was a very fit subject for the loisseic, department of the Chancellor's jurisdiction. The in quiry should be mote extensive Mao hid hem hitherto proposed. Abut arid law were synonymosts terpss There were 6,000 cerofic ited ;loonies, who received pr. an average 1,0001. a year each; so that in this way alone 6,000,0004 were paid to the profession, which set this complicated machinery in motion. the Hon 'ur able Member, after some other observations, concluded by supporting the minion. The ATTORNEY-0 KNERAT. expjakied. Mr. G. BANKAS denied that tbe.statement of the Hon. Member for o,olchester, respecting the way in which the Commissioners transicted the business, was correct; and with respect to the efficiency of the Com ntissioners. he would refer the House to the appoint- ' meats which had been made during the present. year. IHe was not at all opposed to inquiry, on principle; but he maintained, that to appoint a Committee at tliat time would not be treating the new Lord Chancellor with justice. He should therefore oppose the motion. Dr. LUSHINGTON could not agree that it would be a benefit either to the creditors or to the, bank- roots to take from the Lord Chancellor the jurisdic tion of finally judging between them. He could not consent to the introduction of any. Plan which, would go to destroy the uniformity of decieon, and that wai his reason for objecting to the motion for depriving the Great Seal of the jurisdiction over Bankrupt Pe titions. He agreed, however, that the present system ,required revision and total reformation. The 72„Com rnissioners was the most monstrous and absurd contri vance ever thought of. The Hon. Member for Col chester had not stated the case too strong; but he did not believe that any one of the Commissioners had been guilty of making business to put money in his own pocket. The plan, however, of the Hon. Member for the appointment of five Judges instead of the present Commissioners was not new. It was touched upon in the Report, but Sir A. Hart and himself, being the only two of the Commissioners who thought the bankruptcy business came within the scope of the Commission, no recommendation Was formally made. But although the Commissioners did not investigate the subj-ct, that was no reason why the House should nor, and although he could not agree to the mo ion of his H on.i Friend, the Member for Durham, he would readily support any Hon. Member, who would bring forward a specific plan for the improvement of the present pricece. He must say, however, that he thought the Sessioh too far advanced for anything advantage sus to be effected.— He was inclined to repose as much confidence in Lord Lyndhurst as any person reasonably could ; but he could not. consent to rely on a casual expression of that Noble Lord, and indeed it was impossible he should do so. They were told the Bill of the Noble Lord was nut to be prosecuted, and the whole change was to be from Lord'Eldon to Lord Lyndhurst. For his own part he did not believe it possible for the Noble Lord to effect what was required. He should be con tent t.i wait till the next Session to see the result of the experiment, but not longer. But there was one thing which he deprecated above all others, and that was the Lord Chancellor having recourse to an injudicious haste —(Hear, hear!) Such a measure might at first pm duce apparent benefit, but the mischief would ultimately be incalculable—(Hear, hear I) Let the Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolsack endeavour to subdue the arrear of !ntions, but if he could not do so with justice to the suitortlet him acknowledge the fact. At the request of Mr. lhottanass, the S.•Eassa read the motion. Mr. BROUGHAM said he was not deceived; the motion was to the effect he had imagined, He had not doubted the truth of the impression on his mind when he heard the opening speech of his Hon. and Learned Friend, or when he heard that of the Hon. and Learned Attorney-General ; and he was astonished to find the Hon. Member for Colchester launching into a new sub ject. For what he knew the Bankrupt Laws might be very simple, and it might he very right that the House should inquire into the way in which they were admi nistered, but the question then before it was simply this—Shall or shall not the jurisdiction in bank ruptcies be taken from the Great Seal ? and shall the House with a view to the consideration of such a Resolution appoint a Committee to inquire int,i the Acts which attach to the Great Seal the autho rity it pos esses on that pariicolar subject. That was not an unnecessary limit to the debate, for although he had heard no remarks of asperity, he had been for a short time absent from the House, and he was informed that during such temporary absence some such had been indulged its by the Hon. Member for Colchester. He denied that he, or any of those Hon. Gentlemen who had changed their seats, and were to vote with him that night, were guilty of the slighest inconsistency in ob jecting to the motion before the House. He and they had advocated an enquiry into the Court of Chancery ; and he asked them what impropriety or whit incon sistency they could be accused of, if they did not vote for the separation of the jurisdiction in baokruptcies from the Great Seal? Neither lie nor any Honour able Gentleman on his side of the House ohje:ted to an inquiry into the Court of Chancery. But they had told him that a most extraordinary change had taken place in some of the Honourable Gentlemen who sat on his side of the House, and that all the torrents of fiery declamation which they had poured forth were now subdued even into eulogy. Now, mark the fairness of this attack. The only Member who had made the ob servation was his Hon. and Learned Friend the Attorney- General. And what torrents of abuse might he ask, fier y or otherwise, had he ever uttered ? He recollected no instance in which he had said anything disrespectful of the Lord Chancellor or his Court. It was true, how ever, that he (Mr. Brougham) had taken a prominent part in all the discussions upon the subject. He kneW, therefore, the meaning of the sarcasm of the Honour able Member, not born the person who uttered it, but from those by whom it war so loudly cheered. He did not'know why the prophecy should have been hazarded, that he was now about to vote differently from what be had done on former occasions. What opinions bad he 'changed in changing Isis side of the House, either of public measures, or of men, or of Judges? He demanded to know who accused him of haviog changed his principles? Let them have charges, and not mean insinuations, which was the basest mode of propagating slander. He was an example of a change of place in that House without a change of principles; and those who retained their former places Were exam ples either of change of principles or of extreme vague• ness of Pr:ociple. But to return to the subject; he had never beep an advocate for separating the be okrUpf juris dictioe from the Court of Chancery. i - lbirleiidsis4 . Te divided in their opinion of that measure; but be had 1 4ways been Apposed to it, and he opposed it upon nearly ihe same grounds as those upon which he, in common 1 wilt[ *learned and inest i mable pet son now oats:tong ly not arms them, had opposed tite . Vice-Chancellor's t. fie 1,14414 to the recollection of his Hon. f 1 iiend i e was east eorgeet in this asset tion. And alter the appoi - meat of the Veal...chancellor his argument had alaraiys' s e en teat thKotitt pf Chancery had not b. en allowed tint. Asi.One or the other of its Judges had always been an incrtnpetent pet nn. When Sr Vs'ilParn Crant was Master of the Rolls, Sir Thomas Plumtr was Vices Chancellor. a Gentleman who, with the highest gene al and the 'molt exalted' character, was :yet adniiited on all bands to have been incapable of getting through much Chancery: business. Then, tin the appointment of the able VrcesChancellor, Sir John Leach, Sir Thomas Plainer had become Master of the Rolls. He would hot retract any of the praises he had formerly bestowed 'upon the Lord Chabeeller Eldon, although another artist had thought proper to use the trowel and plaster him with praise. But, allow. ing in the fullest manner the talents of the Npblle Lord, there would be no more than two Anent Judges of the Court of Chancery. ' Then, another change took place, and Loyd Gifford became the Mast : r of the Rolls, of whom he would now sal , . 'as fie had said before, "due although he possessed the most amiable Tialities, with great legal -ac quirements, and with talents which, in their proper sphere, Would have adorfied him, and the profession to which he belonged, yet, in the new sphere eon which he entered, at the age of forty, he had not strewn the same abilities as Sir William Grant, and the other eminent Chancery Judges. He would make them remember his former line of argument. He had said, dolt tell me of the system, the fault is in the men. And he now, in perfect consistency said, you have got new men, let them have a fair trial. Mr. Sliadwell, in his evidence before the Commission, had said that three angels would not be competent to het through the bu siness of the Court of Chancery. His argument upon this assertion had, perhaps, not been entirely forgotten.' He had said, give them three men, three competent Judges, let them not invoke the aid of superior beings till human means had failed. Let them try threz ruch .14(1)3e5 - es he had described, before they changed the system. He appealed to his Hon. Friend, he appealed to the Hon. and Learned Member for Tregnny, if this was not the course of his argument. An opportunity was now feir the first time afforded of trying the effect of the V ce Chancellor's Bill. They had now three Chancery, Judges. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman here warmly ealo gized the present Master of the Rolls, Vice Chancellor, and Lord Chancellor, although fie admitted his want of practice in Chancery htisinels to be some disadvan tage. He did not say, however, join the affairs of Bank ruptcy and of Chancery indissolubly—let them be wedded for better and for worse—he only said wait for a year. He' knew that the present Lord Chancellor, by a simple rule of Court, limiting the period at whiCh affidavits on each side must be filed, intended' to get rid of that system of eternal accumulation cf evidence whicl made the floor of the Court groan, and the suitors still more deeply under the load of affidavits. It was in cumbent upon the House to see what could he effected by the Noble and Learned Lord and his able assi•tants, who were deter mined to bejudices a judicrando, and not jadices a nun judicaido. Let them try, and if they failed, let the proposition be renewed ne.t year, which now he could not but think premature. This was his opinion, and not only his, but that of the Noble and Learned Lord at the head of the Court of Chancery. That Noble individual said, let us try for a year, and if we do not succeed, then separate bankruptcy from the Great Seal. The Hon. and Learned Member then proceeded to •indicate the profession of the law from. over siens'which had be n cast open tr. For himself be liattiaed upon the_e aspersions—he would n e no other than Parliamentary language, and therelne would not say with contempt—but with the most perfect indifference. Bat when he heard attempts to cast a stain upon the character of his Hon. and Learned Friend, ...horn he had known for a quarter of a century, he would say in the hearing both of those friends in whom he rej ,icsd, and of his enemies, for even he had enemies, that he had a title which lie would retain, if his officious tide should be lost, to look down with contempt upon inch insinuations. He had led a life of exclusion from pro fessional rank by adherence to hit political' principles._ Was it in that House that they were to hear the pro fession of the Law treated as a degraded pro'ession ? The greatest men that House had ever known hed been proud to hold association with Lawyers. There was no class of men to whom the Constitution owed a deeper debt of gratitude, than to the Laa yens, who in that and the other House of Parlian*nt had struggled to establish and to maintaitfit. The Hon. and Le 'rued Member here launched out into an elaborate eulogy of all the eminent Lawyers who had flottrishedinEngland from Sir E. Coke to Sir A. Piggott. To describe that honourable profession as prone to political subser viency or corruption, was one of the most vulgar, false, sordid, and ignorant fallacies wh ch ever had been hatched. He trusted he should be ex-used for attempting to rescue the Profession from the odium which had been cast upon it, and he had made this attempt ] not from his respect to the authority from which the aspersion had now proceeded, but because on other occasions he had heard censure directed towards the Profession, which went to confound it with a h +fever was most po lluted in political life. He had deemed it necessary to say thus winch 'in vindication of the Pro• fession, and in defence of his Hon. and Learned Friend, who, if not its highest, was one of its brightest ornaments. Mr. M. A. TAYLOR briefly replied. He regretted to say, that those who had on former occasions sup ported his views, then deserted him. The present Lord Chantellor might be a very able man, but all must ac knowledge that he labours under the defect of having derived all his professional experience from a Court of Common Law. Tbe House then divided, when the numbers appeared— . Ayes 57 . 134 Majority against the motion . 97. COVENTRY ELECTION. Sir J.WROTTESLEY, pursuant to notice, ks Chair man of the Committee on the late Coventry Election 'Petition, brought forward his motion relative to the conduct of the Magistrates and Corporation of that city during that election. The Hon. Baronet entered into a long statement of the proceeding's of the above parties at the election, for the purpose of obstructing the voters of Mr. Ellice and Mr. Moore; shewing that the result of that election was mainly attributable to the illegal and violent interference Of the constables appointed by the Corporation. These constables in the most violent manner impeded the efforts of Mr. Ellice's friends AS much as they unduly facilitated the exertions of his opponents. The Hon. Baronet quoted at great length instances of abuse and misconduct on the part of the persons implicated at,the last Election. The con duct of the Mayor of Coventry was so reprobated in the Codusittee, that' they at one time wished to re commend the House to 'send him to Newgate. He concluded by moving for leave to bring in a bill to gk'fc tOR Magistrates of the county of Warwick a co 1- 4 curreiltjortidlciiiits with 'the Magistrates of Cotanirit I , • NOP_ I i l f . 1 , 1 , ~ i I li i , 1 i i , 1 (1, i I 1 t ') 1 1 . i( ( i 1 ii ; 1 \ 1 I , , 1' % .4. ''''' .