Star. — London, England, 1802-03-30 00:00:00

.1 r! the younger branches of her. family. When it i- contidered whit is the number, and time of lie of the younger branches of the Royal Tami l. ; A m] that the expence on their account fall , excitifively on the Queen, it will be no fmall nu tt e r of aftonilliment that the debt fhould have amounted to no more than a fum of 28,5341. A very large portion of this arofe upon the marriage of the Prince of Wales. In the I:tme page will be found a charge for the Prineefs Charlotte. It is made to. commence in 1797, though it was not advanced till a later period. ---I am fure it will be felt by the Commit tce, that it is quite impoffible the expence of fapporting the Princefs Charlotte fhould he b,.rile by the Prince of Wales, conficiering the refiriaions to which he is fubjeit by the Aft of Parliament for arranging the liquidation of his debts. It will perhaps he for the Committee to fay, whether it is not a charge that ought to be taken from the Civil Lift altogether and thrown on the Confblidated Fund ? It is a charge that cannot be borne by the Prince of Wales, and ought not to be impofed upon his Majefty. I beg the attention of the Committee to pages 3e . • and 40, rekrring to the pentions to the late Mmiders at fore:ln Courts. I am well aware that ( - time fur ther infra Illation is =entry. Ample information will be given; and whatever deficiency there may b.: is mine, will be Supplied by my Noble Friel's! /..:.ir roe. I will ohfervc that with regard to Fo. ',Owl Miaitlers refident, it has been univerially a,!mitted the ellimate made in 1735, was infuf fit iota. The pennons of the late Miniffers at fo rt inn Courts have increafed confiderably within the lal two years; yet, notwithilanding the increafe v hiJa has taken place within the lad two years is f' conliderable, the aelual increafe in the lall ft'itecit years amounts to no more than 129,6431. There is another branch which falls under the head of Ciscational Payments. The Committee ratceiviug there was an error of 20,0001. thought it right to avail themfelves of the information con tained in the book required to be kept by Mr. Burke's BM. In page 46 of the report will be found the amount of Royal Bounties. IC is.not my intention to °Kerte on the advances to the Royal Family, though fatisfaftory reafons can be. Hgiven for them. I can hate with truth to the oufe, that under the preffure and difficulty which exitted with regard to the Rate of his Majefly's Hour:hold and Civil Lill, I conceive his Majefty's Nlini tiers would have been little lets than criminal if they had not adopted tome method of relief. I am unwilling to enter into particulars, unlets call ed upon, but lam prepared. His Majefty's Mi- Miters had no alternative between {the one they have adopted, and the crimitrality of expolim his Majetiv to inconvenience and difficulty. There is another charge, namely, the law expences which have been incurred during the continuance of the late war: I !mow Gentlemen differ as to the caufes of thole law expenses. Ceitainly for the lag nine years they have been confiderably augment ed ir, confequen ce of the pmeeed ings agamnperfons for feditious praitiees. I underhand there is a eon fal:rable difference of opinion with regard to the to itteiple of Mr. Burke's 13ill, not haying been ftri.- lv adhered to. I am tore no cane can read thatlint' without obferving that the words of it are to ob fcitre and loot that it is inspoffible to attach any &finite meaning to them. It appears, in calling up the various articles tithe debt under the teveral chafes of the Civil Lift Expenditure, that the ag gregate erects of the Civil Expenditure is 885,9651. tf there is added the charge for the Princefs Char lotte, and the other charges I have alluded to, the excels will amount to 990,0511. When the Committee is propofing to relieve his Majelly, it can hardly be meant to withhold the advances on accotint of the Princefs Charlotte ; and if it Should be the pleafure of the Houfe to grant a fum to the whole amount of the debt, I am ready to admit the inflallments Should be carried to the Confoli dated Fund. The amount, as I have hated, will be 993,0521. a fum not to be contemplated without ?egret, but which is confiderably diminifhed by the , confideration that it is neceffary—that there has , been no prodigality or corruption—and that it is a large proportion of the price necettary to be paid for the advantages of Civil Government. I would ail Gentlemen, if there are any who with to animadvert on the Civil Lin, witether.frorn what they have teen or heard they can refer any part of the expence to wanton profulion ? Have we fern any more of the fplendour of royalty than st hat is pleating to us to (+levee ? We have teen only that degree of fplendour which belongs to the Chief Magiftrate. Sure I am, that the loyal elingz of the country have been rather difep pOinted than fatiated at the difplay of royal fplen-. dour exhibited by his Majelly. I would ant the Committee, whether they do not confider the fum required as a proof that a greater degree of teco nomy has been obferved fince the let application to Parliament ? If it Should be the pleafure of the Houle to adopt the refolution I !hall propok, a heavy burthen will certainly fall on the people of the country.—lt will be reconciled that 'I on a former night expreffed a hope that the public burthens might be letfened by the fele of the Crown Lands, in the Wed Indies; but if no fuch refource was to he found, the payment of the arrears of the Civil Lin would be no lets the duly of the Houfe.— They ought to be paid without taking into con fideration any means of alleviating the public but thens by the tale of the Lands to the Nand of St. Vincent. It is impoffible for his . Ma9efiy, oclefs fame relief is granted him, to maintain that tpleadour which is neceftary. I Should there rae hope that the relief moll likely to :newer the willies of the Committee will be by transferring (tom the Civil Lin certain articles which do not helong to it to the Confolidated Fund. The fever r. , 1 heath of expence which have operated unrea l; mably with regard.° his Majeay might be trent ferred, Co as not to be felt in any contiderable de-, er s o- by the country. lam not aware that it is ' I..:et-tary few me to add any *ins more t I !hall : tkerefore conclude by moving, 0 that it lithe opi- 'lion of this Committee the Mtn of 990,0501. be r 'anted to his Ma' fly to elifeharge the arrears on , .the debt dpe ow% ea the Civil IA on thr Oa 4 1401110. an i s. •• .Mr. F0L...." I declare tliat I am as little di pof• ed as any man in this Hoofer° abridge the proper fplendour of the Firft e sttgiftrate of the country ; and upon this occafinn I am as little inclined to en ter into any revere ferntiny of the items of his ex penditure. Upon this day indeed, particularly, I feel myfelf incapable of any degree of ill humour, foltwoof the bell pieces of news which have reached, this country for come years, have this day been re- ceived to fet me in good humour, and to cocoa rage my hopes for the happinefs of the people. I had fcarcely alighted from my can ge when t heard of the arrival of the Definitive Treaty, and fince I have entered this Houfe, I have heard with much pleafure, the Right Hon. Gentleman an nonneelri s intention of moving the Repeal of a Tait, themult obnoxious in principle, and .21e moil mill chievous in prattice, that ever was impofed on the people of England ; a Tax which has been produc tive of all the confequences, and even worfe than were foretold at the time it was enaaed.—l ans glad that the Minifter propofes to introduce that motion, which probably I fhould be very fitortly sailed upon to fubmit to the Houfe. This inten tion is .not lefs calculated to procure refpca for the Government, than to relieve the people from a 1 , molt (cycle preffure. Ifitall not be (tibial to the fur pkion of wanting a due refpea for the Monarchy, or a just attachment to the Monarch, if in obedi. ence to the duty I owe to my Conftitueuts I (hall *Ave to exprefs my difapproval of this extraordi nary application. The Right Hon. Gentleman in the early part of his fpeech entered into a hiftary of the hereditary revenue of the Crown, in which his ideas and mine are materially different; how-I ever, the question is not at all relevant to that now before die Houfe. What the hereditary revenue , may hAsie been previous to the Revolution, is not dow for us to confider : the principle is entistly I changed fince the Civil Litt was granted in lieu of that I evenue in the reign of William the, Third. With that reign and tbofc fince, could a fair companion be made as to the receipt and I expenditure of the Civil Lift with that of his prefent Majefty—l beg it may be remembered, that the hereditary revenue of the Crown previ ous to the Revolution was not merely for the ex pence of the Monarch's houfehold—not merely for the private expencesof the Government—if that re venue was confiderable, it was riddled with expences that were confide' able alfo. The'Crown had out of it to provide for the defence of the country, and to prepare fleet, and armies ; therefore. that reve nue was quite different in its nature and applica tion frotn that of the Civil Lift, and of courfe the Right Hon. Gentleman's analogy was incorrea.— Whether the fyftem ofhereditary revenue was bet ter than that of the Civil Lift, I (hall not now at tempt to difcufs : the bufinefs is finally decided— it has been thought wife that the public fhould take into its own hands the bufinefs of protecting the country, and of ma,nriging the national revenue, al lowing to the Crown an adequate fum for the main tenance of its dignity and confequence, in time of war or peace. Thus the people relieved the Crown from the contract it was under to provide for the defence of the nation out of the hereditary revenue, and they rendered that revenue completely fubjea tv their own controul. This arrangement, it was, hoped, would tend more firmly to efiablith the authority of the Houfe of Commons, and render the affairs of the Crown lefs liable to confufion or embarraffinent. In the reign of James H. the hereditary revenue amounted to two millions; but from the manner in which that revenue was to be applied, the Hoare will fee that it has no con netlion with the prefent queftion ; we can only commence our enquiry and comparifons with the ettablithment of the Civil Lift, which invelied the Crawls with the right of difpoling of a certain fum of the public mono, without fubmitting its expen diture to examination—a right which was accoro ponied by an implied injundion not to contra@ debts. The:Right Hon. Gentleman teems to think .that William 111. had no right to the hereditary revenue of the Crown, becaufe he was not the di- red dercendant of James IL and certainly he was not; but he was chofen by the nation to govern; and upon the fame ground his prefent Majefty has no title to that hereditary revenue, for he is not the defeendant of James. I rather hope, as I should with, that as his authority defends from the right, fo he inherits the principles of William. When ' the Civil Lift was firft faded, certain revenues were fit apart, which were calculated to produce po,nool. a year; and if thefe revenues should pro duce more, the excels was properly under the contrail' of Parliament, and to be appropriated by them. Whether it is wirer to grant the Civil Lift from time to time, or to fettle it at the beginning of a reign, I fhall not now enter into, but certainly the wifdom of the latter plan, which is .that as yet aded upon, will not appear Co deferving of preference or praite, if,ip mations are to be thus frequently made to Par 'amert to difcharge the debts improvidently con traded.by the Monarch ; or to fupgly the want of judgment and forefight in the Parliament, by whom the quantum - of the Civil Lift may have been fixed at die commencement of that Monarch's reign.—. I approve of the plan once adopted of paying the debts of the Civil Litt by laying a tax of 6d. in the pound on all penfions and &lanes ; this was en abling the Civil Lift to difcharge its own debts, and relenting the public from any incumbrance.— This 'is the mode, or forrrething fimilar, which ought to be retorted to on this occaGon. The Civil Lilt in George the Second's reign, amounted to Soo,oooL a year, &hied to life annuities to the Dowager Princes of Wales, Princefs Amelia, and the Duke of Cumberland ' • thefe annuitants dying Coon after the accetfion of his prefent Majefty, the Civil Lift was fo mach Iscreafed. As his Majefty has contraded loch 'debts, it would, in my opinion.] he becoming the elevation of his rank, and the honour of his eharader, to-adopt thole retrench ments, which almoft every man in the nation has been bliged of late years to [obi* to, in order to meet the grefure of the tirna. This opinion may appear rather rigid ; but with the utmoft deft.' rence for the Monarch, it is my fixed judgment. - It cannot be pretended that the Civil lilt at the be- , ginning of the prefent_reign was fetaledWithout eal -61 1 tip 1111118841113011 t of the es.l ._l_3!_l_, celfaries ofl;re,and the depreeiationotmoney. The Ilrati on which then !welded, confllletfor men' dillinguillied not lets fur their talents than fdir their perfonal attachment to the King. Among then, were the Duke of Newcattle, Lord Bute, and the late Earl of Chatham, and furely it cannot be flip poled that they were likely to propofe an bade plate eflahlitliment : but even rumpling it pro bable, which I do not, as I think no perfon fair ly confidering the liihjea and the chandler of thole men can, it will be recolleaed that only nine years after the acceltion of the King, application was made to Parliament to pay off a debt of be tween five and fix hundred thoufand pounds—at that time Mr. Tucker, a Gentleman dame's lite rary celebrity, wrote a pamphlet in defence of the application, contending that if a man of fix or (even hundred a year Ihould only contrad a debt of eight hundred pounds within the aril nine years after his marriage, he could norbe charged with much extravagance •, and applied this to I the cafe of his Majefty, dwelling upon the expences to which his Majesty was expled at that period. Eight years after, in 1777, Minitters again came i forward with anoth e r claim on t h e publi c f or th e debts of the Civil Lift, which the Minority of that day in this Hook, among whom were Sir George I Saville and myfelf.oppofea, upon the fame grounds ; that I oppote this day the motion of the Right I Hun. Gentleman, namely, that Miniflers ought to accommodate the expenditure of the Civil Lift to the amount fixed by Parliament, and not attempt to contract debts, in the hope that Parliament would afterwards difcharge them. Upon the oc cation I allude to in 1777, Sir Fletcher Norton,l the Speaker of the Houfe of Commons, dated at the bar of the Houfe of Lords, that the Commons had granted to his Majesty a fum much beyond his expectation, and confidering the burthens of the country, much beyond what he had a right to expect. What, I will ask, in the prefect situation of the country, ought to be the language of the Speaker ado:hefting hisMajelly on a hinilar fubjed, far furely the burthens of the country at that time ' were fo trifling, that to compare them with thole of the prefect day, would be like to Florus,the Ro o man Hittorian, talking in the period of the Roman greatners.of the triumph oftheirarms over the Volsci and theVientis. Upon there burthens I (hall not now' dwell,though it is my confirmed opinion that they are too heavy for this nation long to endure— Recurring to the fpeech of Sir Fletcher Norton —the (bong and just fentiments he employed were highly alarming to the fycophalits of that day—to an expretlion of Mr. Burke's, there appeared to be an infurration among the Courtiers ; but the fpeech was to much applauded that even the Mi nillers felt it prudent to join in the praife it !weir. ed. It was generally considered to become the charafter of the Houle of Commons, whore organ he was, to be a vindication of their condua in granting fo large a fum of the public money ; and to afford fume guarantees againit a repetition of fuch claims—how vain the hope ! In order that the Houle and the Minifters may feel.the force of this celebrated fpiech, Itfhall move it to be read." --[The Clerk read the fpeech from the Journals.] —Mr. Fox returned, " The illuftrious charafter who pronounced thefe fentiments, notwithaand ing the manner in which it was at the time cried down by Conflict.; was five years after— wiles' Peerages were more fparinglydiftributed than of late years—advanced to the dignity of the Peer ! age ; rn fad, during the Admitiaration of the Marquis of Buckingham only four Peers were created, and Sir Fletcher Norton was one of them. Many debts contraaed by the Civil Lift fince that period, and particularly fince the enactment of Mr. Burke's Civil Lift Bill, are, in my conception, in diredirectoppofition to the will of Parliament—which no perfons in this country ought to difobey—any excels fince added to that debt, by whomfoever that addition may have been made, is a mifdemcanour. It was the duty of Minifters, if it became indifisen fible to contra& a debt, to apply to Parliament be fore fuels a debt was contraeted. Such a conduit would have been more confillent with the reined due to Parliament, than to contra& the debt &It, and apply thus for the payment afterward. With the Right Honourable Gentleman's interpreta tatien of Mr. Burke's Bill, I completely differ.— [Here Mr. Fox explained his conception of this Bill as to the payment of the different aides of creditors to the Civil Lift ; and an tetrad from the Bill was read.] He proceeded—" Some evil was got rid of by Mr. Burke's Bill, but it did not operate to prevent, at was expeaed, any ruble quent application to Parliament for aid—for it now appeared, than though the Civil Lift was railed in 1777, from Soo,qool. to 900,0001. a year, the debt fince that increafe of revenue had been even more than during the &It feventeen years of his Majefly's reign, when' he had only Bco,oool. a year. rhe Houk ought to put an end to fuels ap. plications as thefe; and the country ought to tin derlland what the real amount of the Civil Litt was to be. If the fettlernent of the Civil Litt for life he effential to the independence and fecurity of Monarchy, in order that it thould not be under the neceffity of coming to Parliament for, ecca tional grants, it was rather odd, that during the prefent reign. not lcfs than four limb grants had beets applied for. The Right Hon. Gentleman has laid much flrefs on the difference of expense in time of war and peace ; but wby has the Houfe heard nothing of the Civil Lift debts throughout the courfe of the fall war ? Perhaps it was appre, hended that if that debt was to be attributed to the war, it would add too much to the other caufcs of complaint which contributed to render that war fo univerfally unpopular. It ought, however, to be recollected, that the Civil Litt has not, in any inftance, been arranged upon iworpeCi of an um form peace eftablifhment ; they would be poor po liticians who Would lo calculate. To King Wil liam, Queen Anne, and George the Firft, it was granted at periods of impending aaual war; there fore it has been generally provided fo at to meet all, probable occafions.—l. profets myfelf a friend to the proper fplendour of the Throne, but-cannot think that its fpkndour is belt fnpported by run ning in debt, and callift on the country at a period of great national didgefi to liquidate ice debt. Will PT MIA RAM ;bit the Newby oft 7t7. or s 7060. were not aware of the wants and In it torten(' nig of the Crown. They granter, a Civil Lift accarclitue. y, and it would be remount to the purpok for which that Civil Litt was fo voted, thus to interfere, and by Welting to new pretenfion., give rife to new and dangerous precedents-epeececk•nts which are Ihrirtafaci• criminal , inalmuch as they are obvinuf ly oppofite to a pofitive liatute. Mini,t thould be compelled to confine the expence of the Civil Lift within its income ; for they have taken upon them to do that which does net belong to them; they have taken upon them to fay that tt was irn poffibk for the Civil Lift to be fuftained by the al lowance it polfeffed front Parliament. It might be fo—but Parliament fhould have raid In, not the Minifters. They theuld not affnme to be the better judges of what was right to be done—they I thould at leaft condekend to itfk the opinion of Parliament upon the fubjeft. If I were to give an opinion up o n th e re d u dion of this deht,lfhoulfr fay, if it is merely temporary—that is to fay, siting out of temporary caufes,limit your expences fur a (tort time,: and create a fund to difcharge it ; but if it arises out of the inadequacy of the per manent revenue, call upon Parliament to advance it. As to the falaries upon the Civil Lift, they, in fiat, have not been increafed for years back.— The Celery of a Lord of the Treafury, or of a Se cretary of State, is the fame now as in the reign of Charles the Secood. The increafe of trader men's bills I mull fuppofe to produce thi s f o muc h complained of rife in the debts. Thefe bills un doubtedly mutt be provided for. I fhould re luaantly real their payment, but I confers they appear to me in a very quellionable (hape. I admit I du not underhand the report of the Committee, nor does it feem to me poffible for any man accu rately to examine the items, in order to form a fair judgment of their nature. However, I (hall re mai k upon a few of them, which ftrike me as very prominent indeed. Among the fiat I mutt men tion the nepointment of a third Secretary of State, the neceitty for which, particularly fine the lots of America, was never perceived until it became necetfary to form a coalition with certain Members of Oppolition in £793. As to the expence of cm baffles, it appeared that in 179 t, when the public opinion was too decided to allow the Minifter to go to war with Ruffia, he thought proper to fend Mr. Fawkener to Peterlburgh, to tell the Em prefsthathe was ready to give upUczakow, though Lord Whitworth, our Ambaffador and a very able negotiator, was on the fpot, and could have told the (tory quite as well. Here was an unneceffary ex pence. Again, we had Come bufinefs to fettle at Berlin : a Member of this Houfe was fent to at: range it, though we had an Ambaffador relident there. At Copenhagen alto, fomething occur. red that induced the Miniher to fend Lord Whit worth there to negotiate with the Danifh Court. There too we had a refident Minifter at the time ; and yet Lord Whitworth, who a few years be fore was not thought fit to make a bow to the Emprefs of Ruffia, was difpatched to do the duty of another Minifter. So much for double Ambatradors. I have found out fo many items of extravagance, and I dare fay there are Sco more, if the nature of the account did not make it impoffible for any other than a Minifter to point them out. Tbefe taken into aecotutt, with the unnece(fary Secretarylhip of State, fwell the debt of the Civil Lift not a little. With reference to this office, I remember that Lord Chatham, when really in an infirm hate of health, managed the whole of the bufinefs of the office, for which the late miniftry thought two Secretaries neceffary, and that that Noble Lord concluded the (even years war, at leaft with as much eclat as the late Minifter at War concluded the affairs of the army during the late unhappy conteft. Why then fhould this fuperfluous office have been created ? if fuch a q ue ft io n h ad been put At the timethe officer W 2 s about to be appointed, polfibly the anfwerwou Id have been, I will do it; and, though I have not money to pay for it, I have good friends th at w ill— t h e Houfe of Commons :—they are exceedingly liberal—aye, but would it not be prudent to allk them fire? No, I will rely on their kindnefs ; they have Come friends to provide for, fome young lons whom I can oblige, and they in return, will not hefitate to compliment me—l will, therefore, ere.sl the office now, as it feemsneceilary to extend thy influence, though I am not able to pay for it; and by and by, when Peace comes, I (hall be able to get the mo ney from the Houk of Commons. The partiality to the Civil Litt which has fo generally appeared, cannot have efcaped notice ; it was particularly more remarkable in the cafes of Lord Grenville and Mr. Dundas, one of whom was appointed Treafurer of the Navy, and the other Auditor of th e Exchequer—but they declined, very honoura. Ibly, no doubt, to accept the pay of the two offices ; and in order to make a laving to the Civil Lift, they took from it only as much in addition to the falaries of their new appointments as was neceffary • to make up the falary of Secretary of State—thus there was a favi9g to the Civil Lilt of Scoot. which in fad ought to be a laving to the public. Thefe l and filch things ought to be enquired into. With regard to the affairs of the Prince of Wales, I muff, as far at they are conneded with this fubjed, make Come remarks upon them. If the price of proviftons has been railed, and the value of money depreciated—if tradefmen's demands have been ruled, why fhould not all thefe confederations plead as powerfully in favour of his Royal High nela as in favour of his Majefty ; yet when you 'advanced his Royal Highn'efs's revenue to fiery tboufand pounds a-year, he was induced to pro nounce that he would be contented with that; and me his marriage, when you raifed it to tas,oool. a-year, you, availing yourfelves of the words which had been drawn from a young 'man, infilled, that as his revenue was doubled, the furplus above ticeoool. a-year Mould be appropriated to the mine. tion of his debts; you did not apprehend that this re: guletion would interfere with the fplendour neeefe iary for the HeirA p parent to the throne to maintain. It might be Laid, that he ought to Corer), that fplen dour in order to become capable of dirchargios tbe debts he bad contraesd, it is very rrnai.bot why is not the fame rule applied to ha MajAity ,He was npt lea bound by tbs A& of Pallid:lent Mt to mum, Mel" fteruitearoo P 7, 11402