Star. — London, England, 1802-05-14 00:00:00

ni the conredetael, which was foinied with this country againft France was• not only broken, but a new confederacy with France formed againß this country. In this fituatic - i of affairs, the uni verfal opinion with all ranks and defcriptions of people was to make peace with F; aace; and among thefe were feveral of thole Gentlemen at the op. polite fide of the Houtc, who, in feutiments and in txprellions had fo frequently during the war dif fered with his Majefty's Minitlers. It was confi tiered as a thing neceftiry and expedient to make peace vith Fr!nce : and Covet nment accordingly under this infltience, after they had fent a fleet into the Baltic, deemed it right to advife his Ma jelly to make a peace with the Government of France. But it was not a thing much to be hoped for er expeacd, that at filch a period of the war, and after all that had happened, any peace that this country could make would affea a fettlement of the affairs nn the Continent. That fuels a fettlernent could rot be aceompliked was a ch.• cumllanee certainly very deeply to be deplored; but it could neither be attempted or thought of after thc treaty of Luneville ; that abfarbed all Continefltal confederations, and from the fecrecy with which it was conduCed and diaated, it was impoftible to enter into dikuffion or negotia tion for rights there, which, in any degree, would he either confolatory or fatisfatiory to this coun try ; we were left, therefore, to make fuch a peace as antler three general principles might be accor dant with the dignity, honour, and intereft of the empire. The firft and great objeit to obtain, was the integrity of Great Britain; the next was, fide lity towards our allies; and the third, was to have fuch an equivalent in our coaquefts, wherever they were to be taken, as would meet thofe which France obtained on the Continent of Europe.— How far we have by fubfequent circumftances, and by the Treaty we have made, fucceeded in thefe objects, remains now to be confidered ; and he hoped they would be; as they appeared to be, calculated for the accomplilhment of the great ob ject required ; that is, a lifting and an honourable Peace. Our villories loon matured what our hopes fuggetitel, and the battle of the ad of April, added to that of the glorious conteft of the 2111 of March in Egypt, combined together, foon perfuaded the French Government to alter their tone for peace, and look forward to it with as much zeal as at any period they could reafonably bee:- pc:led to do, after the vaft acquifitions they ob tained, and the extenfion of empire which they had accomplifhed. The negotiation then took a fpirited turn, and the Preliminaries were agreed to. Thefe were the circumftances that led to the negotiation for the peace, to the fignature of the Preliminaries, and to the final execution of the Definitive Treaty ; but Government, from the moment that they proceeded in their efforts for ne gociation, felt that they could not make fuch terms for their Allies as they fincerely wiffied ; but they are fatisfied that the peace they have negotiated has, notwitlillanding that, given to out allies as much, under the circumftances of their refpeftive cafes, as they had a right to expo% whilll it was at the fame time fuch a peace as prefented this country no lets in addition to what the already polkaed, than two of the greaLeft naval flations in the eallern and weflern betnifpbere ; it was, there fore, a peace moll honourable and moll advan tageous. From all that he had heard this night from his Right Hon. Friend, and it has (hewn him perfetily conliftent, fur it appears to be his fend ments and his doctrine, that it is not his objec tion that we fhonld ceafe to carry on the war, but that we should ever make peace with the prefent Government of France ; for fuch a peace, in his eyes, was not to be juftified before GOD or man. But both his arguments and his reafonings upon that fubjea make againft all his original principles; for France is juft verging from that revolution and -loft horrors which ever accompanied it ; the appears to have the advantage of confolidating a Government, which by gentle gradations ap proaches fait to the reftoratioa of order and me thod, which can give a nation liability and faith ; it has reflored all wonted refpesft for religion, which through the furor of rebellion, revolution, and Jacobinilm, was trampled on and defpifed, and it has reflored fy Rem over the whole of her yell territory; but Ihould a renewal of the war occur, all this order, all this fyftem, would again diverge into the fame barbarifms of revolution, anarchy, and Jacobinifm, which for thefe twelve years pall have defolated Europe, railed fo much the horrors, and excited fo much the deprecation of the Right Honourable Gentleman. It may be raid, with regard to the firft of the general principles which he (hated, that this country be holding the circumftances which thus enveloped Europe, Ihould not have concluded a Peace with out obtaining fuch a fecurity for its prefervation, as would eventually prevent an abrupt or fpeedy rupture. In reply to that he would fay, that however much this country mull and did behold the aggrandifements of France, on the Continent, flill he never could content to the opinion, that whenever France ft retched her conquests we Ihould interfere, as if every acceffion to power with them neeellitrily involved us. But a doctrine like this he fur one never would affent to ; if it be not the molt evtravagant, it certainly was the moll extenfive that ever was broached to this or to any other go vernment under the fun. He knew, on the other hand, there were thofe in the country who enter tained opinions of a very different nature, who thought that this country should be infnlated in her political influence, as the is in her natural lima tion : but neither was he an advocate for that ex treme; they were both equally imprudent ; they were as erroneous in politics as in ethics. " irJer fe son plum convenire." This country has a deep interell in the affairs of the Continent, but then it is an intereft of a relative nature, not de pendent on caprice or ideas of chivalry, but to be afcertained from concurrent events, in doing which we mat regard the I . :Nation of France in re (pea to her exterior acquirements, and the dif pofition of her people at home. Looking_there rnre into the fituatton of the interior of France, he ppealed, whether there was a period, for the wr. , .le of the nine years War, when we could have a Peace with more . likelfttoodof its permanency, or with more propriety towards Durham. At the conctuflon of that period, after having embarked in that war for the balance of power in Europe, we forma the molt of it coalefced againft ourfelvcs. We therefoie made a Peace feparate and Jiftina from them, and that without committing either our honour or our faith. Strong, indeed, mutt the reafons be for renewing a war, when fuch cir- 1 cumftanceohave occurred as enjoined fo earneftly and fo imperioufly the neceffity of peace. As to the circumftances which occurred by the crowd of events that have happened in Italy, fuch as the change of the Tufean Government, and the amt . - fion of the Cifalpine Government to the hands of the Firft Conful, if Holland and the Netherlands were not now caufes for continuing the war, and their refpeeive Sovereigns and people would not join us any longer in their mutual cants, to recut and reftore them ; and we therefore thought them no longer cants' to interrupt the tranquillity of Europe, certainly the Italian Republic and the 1 Etrurian Monarchy infinitely lets fhould agi• tate our confederation, much lefs excite us to a re newal of the war. But when we glance at thefe events, we find the Court of Berlin congratulating the Firit Cantu), on the one hand, and the Court of Vienna acquiefcing on the other; and both there Powers were by much more interefted in each of thefe events than we could poilibly be. Minifters, therefore, beholding thefe tranfaaions, did, as he conceived, but their duty, in recommending it to his Majefty to make a feparate peace; and the shame or the glory of it, whichever fhould hap pen to be the refult, they would claim a title I to ; the refponfibility was theirs, and they would avow it openly and unreferved. With regard to the ceffion of Louifiana by Spain, it was im poffible altogether to view it with indifference But yet that was not a ground for refuting to ac -1 cede to a peace. Louifiana was originally a French Province, and in the peace of ;763, when this country Rood high in the opinion of all the world, ) when France was allowed all the other Weft In dia colonies except Tobago, fhc was given Loui- 1 fiana in addition ; yet this country is now blamed for not refilling private conventions. It is not a little fingular, that immediately after the fignature of that treaty, they privately ceded Louiliana to Spain; fo that not only there private conventions are of a much earlier date than reprefented, but this very colony, which, by a fecret treaty, is jutt now ceded to France by Spain, was ceded in the fame way by France to Spain in 1763: this, therefore, could not be aground to renew the war, or to re fute acceding to a general peace. It was neither a ct.nunercial or a naval Ration of import, or likely for centuries to become fo. He denied that it would become formidable to this country by its vicinity to the American States, and the confequent probability that it would overrun thofe States.— The fat& would certainly be the reverie of that ; France, by becoming poffelted of that colony, became, therefore, the natural rival of America, and the would therefore be guarded againft her, and her (tweets in that refpea might well be cal. culated from her struggles in 1756, when France, in addition to Louifiana, had alto Canada; and Rill more might we judge it, if we regard the efforts America made with this country in her fuccefsful ftruggle for independence and fovereign fway. Re- Hefting on there two matters, he was warranted in the conclufion he drew, that America would al ways be itrong enough to counteraft any of the fchemes of ambition which France niight plot againft her on her Continent. So far, therefore, as events had happened between the figning of the Preliminaries and the execution of the Definitive Treaty, be left it to the Houfe to confider and lay, whether upon this ftatement, which was a (tatement of recorded faits, Minilters would have been juftified in refuting to liften to a conclufion of the war, or again to its renewal ? With regard to the fecond great general queftion, whether the Definitive Treaty he founded on the bails of the Preliminaries, two things were to be confidered ; viz. Otniffions and Commitlions. By the firft was underftood thofe which, not being of the Preli minaries, yet cornprifed a part of the Definitive Treaty, under which head was to be regarded the non-renewal of political and commercial treaties. As to the firft, it was known, that from the Treaty of Weftphalia down to the lama we had made I prior to this, although great changes had taken `place in Europe, yet as treaties were to frequently made, thefe changes were not fo prominent, and the original treaties in each new treaty were as regular. ly renewed as the treaties themfelves were made, it was always contidered a thing of courfe. To all who regard the prefent fitnation of Europe,and the changes it has undergone during the laft nine years, it mutt be apparent thatfuch treaties could not now be renewed, to as to be maintained afterwards with good faith ; and it was evident that in all the treaties which France made with the feveral Powers that the had been contending with, not one of the old treaties had been revived ; and moreover, to thew the abfurdity of renewing old treaties, were that done, we fhould have to guarantee the Ne therlands to Auftria, the Seven United Provinces to the Houk of Orange, Savoy to Sardinia, and a variety of other guarantees equally impoffible and ablurd. If we had not fucceeded in letting Europe to rights, we had the fatisfaaion of know ing that we were no party in her wrongs. and in making a feparate Peace, we have not become a party against her intereft ; for we never could become a party in her concerns, as long as the con tented to the feparate and fecret treaty ofLuneville, of which we were no party, in which we bore no )hare. With regard to the non-renewal of Commer cial Treaties, certainly that appeared at firtt view matter of grave confideration ; but the arguments that apply to the one bear upon the other. And as a proof of the abfurdity of concluding treaties of this defcription, without at leaft knowing firft what kind of treaties we thould want after fo long a digreffion from all kinds of treaties, he would mere ly inftance that with refried to our exports ; they were much greater during the war than they were at any period during the peace, notwithtlanding all the prohibitory laws that were thundered forth in ceffintly to prevent their reception. And if we were driven to a war of duties with France, certain it was that the advantage would be molt promi nently on our fide, and that too particularly with France. It would produce a much greater evil to her wines and bkidies than to any ene ankle of our nsanufattures, or of our trade whatfoever. Re lative to the feparate conventions as to the Eat Indies, tbe Bay of Honduras, and our flag, he went into each on a general detail. As to the firll, though the rights of the Britifh and of the French originated from the fame fource, from thofe fir mans which firit conftituted right in that quarter of the world originally, yet we Coon eltabliflied a ftronger title by the right of conqneft, and that footing which the Mogul firft prefented us, we converted by victory into foxereignty ; and France, now fully fenfible of that, comes back, but under our !way, acknowledging there no other lord paramount, confirmed as it heretofore was by the Treaty of 1787. Concerning the next &Wee, Honduras, that was ceded by treaty in 5763, for an equivalent on the Mufquito Shore; and the right, therefore, we poffefs is old and in dubitable. As to the laft and moll important tub jed, viz. The honour of the Flag, he declared that he never heard a fubjea Co perverted or fo mifundertlood. Some Gentlemen had afferted,l that Government had permitted a direct renuncia tion of its right. This he denied to its fulleß ex tent. Its dignity hr.; not been fullied, we have claimed its title, and we have obtained the cur tomary refped to its fuperiority, by an unqualified reftitution of its claim to be faluted in every quar ter of the ocean; not with regard to Holland I merely, for that would be aliening it with but a very humble foe, but with our proudeß rival, with France herfelf, and with all the world befide. So far, therefore, from abandoning it, we have fet it on the very fame foundation it was at the proudeft periods of our Naval Hiftory. Itt the Prelimi naries five points occurred, which were modified in the Definitive Treaty; thefe were the articles concerning Prifoners, Portugal,Newfoundland, the of Good Hope, and Malta. Relative to the. tint, it is by no means a new thing to introduce in a Treaty a like provifion for Prifoners of War: it was but a principle of fair and reciprocal juftice, it was eltablithed in 1763, and again in 1783 ; and upon thefe two precedents, the French contended, and, in his opinion, fairly too, that we ought and had a right to confider the Ruffian troops in our pay, pre -1 cifely on the fame footing as our own fuldiers. With regard to Portugal, his Lordfhip maintained that we performed our duty towards her with honour and truth. It is true that our expedition to Egypt prevented us from giving her that aid which the at a very late period called for from us; but we Rated our reafons for having fignified to her the conditions by which the might continue to look up to us for protection ; the refuted the good we offer. ed, although our requeß was nothing more than this, (and concerned he was to (late thus publicly, becaufe it appeared invidioufly, the reafon), that the would not condefcend to allow us to appoint a Commander in Chief over her forces, inftead of an old man, who was at the head of them, unable, from age and infirmities, to encounter the difficul ties of his Ration. This, however, the thought propor to refufe, unlefs we fent her 25,000 men with fuch a General. To this we could not com ply, and we confequently reheated her from all obligations with regard to this country. She pro ceeded then to make her peace with France ; and here our fidelity manifetled itfelf ; for when the was on the point of fubmitting to the moll rigor ous terms, we ftept in, and by a fubfidy Caved her from the impending danger, and reftored her to thofe limits which otherwife would have been taken from her on the Continent of South America.- 1 His Lordthip then went into a very accurate and geographical defcription of thefe limits on the Arawari and the neighbourhood of the River Ama zons, with the view of proving that the mag nitude, and the effect of the ceffion made there, is by.no means of that import which was defcribed in the fpeeches made on the fubjed by Gentlemen who entertain different opinions ; and therefore the arrangement made refpeding this, agreed in effential tub Rance and fpirit with the Preliminaries. The Hon. Mr. Poza WILLISLY feconded the amendment. Mr. T. GRENVILLE faid, that in the obfervations he had to make, he thould confine himfelf fiddly to the anfwer of the arguments which the Noble I Lord had advanced in favour of the treaty of peace. But before he proceeded, he wiffied fir ft tot:9 , a few words upon what his Right Hon. Friend had laid of the neceffity of fupporting the fpirit of the people of this country. This obfervation he conceived applied to what had fallen from the Noble Lord towards the conclufion of his fpeech. The Noble Lord faid, that the people were tired out with the war, that they cried out for peace, and that the joy they expretted upon the peace was greater than he witted to have feen—This was the point at iffue between his Majcity's Minifters and thofe Gentle men who concurred with him in opinion upon the lubjed. He contended, that the fpirit of the people of this country was what he hoped it always would be; that the people were ready to (land forward in defence of their honour and fecurity, and that at the laft period of the war, the fpirit of the country was as great as it had been at any period during the cornett. He then proceeded to comment upon differents parts of the Noble Lord's fpeech z he con tended that this country would have derived great advantages from the renewal of the treaties. With regard to that part of the queftion which related to India, he faid he was allonfthed to hear a Right Hon. Gentleman laft night fpeak fo tightly of the Treaty of 1783 and the Convention of 1787, be caufe in the projed of the Treaty of Lifle, he teemed to with to confirm thofe Treaties which he now reprefented as worfe than ufelefs. Mr. DUNDAS rote to vindicate hlmfelf from an imputation brought forward by the Right Hon.. Gentleman who (poke laft. That Right Hon. Gen tleman had accufed him of laying, that by the non renewal of former Treaties, in the cafe of India, the poifon which they contained had been lett out. The fad was, and he defired to have it clearly and fatisfadorily underftood, that in the Treaty of 1787 would be found an antidote to the poifon contained in that of 1783. The Right Hon. Gen tleman, in calling the attention of the Houle to the effed of the Definitive Treaty on our Indian poffeffions, had not thought proper to confider that country, as its prefent ftate differed from that of 1787. He had indeed viewed it as it vatted in t 78j and 1707, but not * tingle word had bteii atf •vanced as to what it was in tßoz. He had paired over as unworthy of notice the vat augmentationot territory lately acquired there, and the great in. create of revenue, and of the iources of national i n duftry and opulence. With the fame confi ftency th e fubverfion of the Myforean Empire had been lef t out of the queftion, an event which, with other important circumdances, had eflablithed firmly, and, he trolled, permanently, the Britins Sove. reignty in the Eatt. As to his own opinion on the omiffion of the former Treaties in the Definitive Peace, lie fhould plainly Rate that he confidered the Peace better in evei y ref pea without the re. newal of the Treaties of t7C.3 and 1787, than it they had becn renewed in that Aft with France._. Having raid thus much in confequence of the re. marks which had fallen from the Right Hon. Gentleman, he felt hinifelf called upon to offer Tome oblervations to the Houfe n ith refpeet to the opinion lie had formerly given on the fuhjea o: the Cape of Good Hope, and of the nand of Malta. The Cape of Good Hope was in his inind of Atoll interetl to the Country, and of fuch mag. nitude, both in a political and commercial view, that as lie had direaly maintained, nothing but a laft and irrefiftable confederation Should have in. duced us to have given it up. The concern which he then expreffed, !till remained in his brcafi, and there were no motives that could perfuade him tc conclude a Peace with France,if by one of the cop ditions of that Peace we were to relinquith occult ment fo truly valuable. It was, he believed, unne ceffary for him to enumerate the benefits which this country mull have derived from retaining that ac quifition in our hands, and on the contrary the refult would be proportionably beneficial to the enemy. The Situation of the Cape was fo very ad vantageous, that independently of other confider ations it would ferve as a depot between China and the Continent of India and Europe. In alluding to Malta, on which he had alto upon a former oc cafion delivered his fentiments, he would again repeat them, and fay that he raw no grounds for changing his opinion. Malta, he no doubt very highly valued in a commercial light, for by the advantages of its Situation it was capable of covet ing our trade in the Levant, and of promoting our commerce in the Mediterranean; but it was not in that view alone he beheld it. He law in it a mighty proud watch tower, on which the Brit& flag would be difplayed to the glory of this coml• try, and to the admiration of the piling nations. He certainly walled to have the ifland garrifoned by Britifh troops, for he would not mull a poffelflon of fuch vaft importance to other hands. Having Rated his former fentiments on thefe two heads, he might be alked, whether he valued the opinions he had formerly given in refpedt to them both ? as much as he valued the reftonition ofPeace, and to a queftion to put, be would anfwer direaly, openly and candidly : He Should then fay, that if he had been one of the Adminibation engaged in the con elution of the Definitive Treaty, he would not have made Peace with France at the expence of the Cape and of Malta. He fhould not vote for the Addrefs, for lie could not vote with thole who prorated a defire to preferve the Peace, and yet were loud in their inve3ives againft it ; but the Amendment Should have his fupport, as it did not pledge the Houfe to every part of the Treaty. dvir. GRENVILLE explained. General GASCOIGNE Paid, that, when he confi. dered the magnitude of the fobjea under dircul fion, and that a number of Members were, at that late hour, delirous of Submitting their opinions on the nature of the Treaty, he felt it his duty to move the queftion of adjournment. The CHANCELLOR OF THE ERCHECTER, though fully fenfible of the importance of afpeedy decifion on this very interefting f , , , bjea, yet witlied its merits to be fully difcuffed : and if he could be allured that there were Gentlemen (till anxious to deliver their fentiments, he Should not oppofe the queftion of adjournment. Mr. PITT (poke a few words to the fame cffelt. He profeffed himfelf fo fatisfied with the able, itn preflive, and eloquent (peech of his Noble Friend, that he was ready to give a filent vote for the Ad drefs. He thought full jullice had alto been done to the arguments on the other fide, in the ,cry able . fpeeches delivered this evening . Unlefs it could be Rated that many Gentlemen were Rill anxious to deliver their fentiments, and that new matter yet remained to be urged, he was againft adjourning fo very interelling a queßion. Mr. Gaxv Paid, that however he might be dif. poled to vote again the Addrefs, he was lefs in clined to oppofe the Amendment, for though he could not help thinking that the dangers of the country were greater by the Definitive Treaty than by the Preliminary Articles, yet he was convinced upon the whole that his Majefty was well advifed to put an end to the conteft even on thofe terms, rather than continue the war. It was difficult to reconcile the conduct of the Right Hon. Gentle. man oppollte to him (Mr. Dundas) who was ready to concur in applauding the wifdom of the Treaty, yet Strongly arraigned that wifdom, in. afmuch as it had finaioned a meafure to which he himfelf would not have acceded—the ceffion of the Cape of Good Hope and of Malta. The war, he was convinced, had failed in all its objets, and our fucceffes, however Signal, had been feparate, and their great end had been confequently defeated. Mr. DUNDAI in explanation, undertook to ex culpate himfelf from the charge of incontiftency preferred againft him by the Hon. Gentleman. Mr. SHERIDAN Paid, that it was his intention to introduce an amendment for the purpofe of bring ing forward graver and more important matter, and of giving to feveral Gentlemen on his fide of the Houfe an opportunity of delivering their opi nions more at length. The quellion was put on the Motion for adjourn ing the Debate till to-morrow, when the Houle divided—Ayes 187—Noes t 35 —Majority 52. At half pail Three o'clock the Houk ad. jousned. 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