Star. — London, England, 1815-03-04 00:00:00

S.. paw should esibie us to diminish our taxes, keeping inviolable faith with the public monitors, suthcient peace establishment. These were the Resolutions he had s. after hearing . them, let any person emu those propositions were calculated to defrau. lie creditor, or to dingaish the piaeisiort fey tient peace establishment. fie wished tp impress this as a general maim, that if a great sera was ne cessary, it Was better to raise it *direct taxes upon thole who were thg best able to pay , them, than throngh the spediem ot aq indirect tasation, atccting the poor, or those who were nor able to pay them. All taxes of that kind were , in fact, taxes upon the consumer. if their Loxdships were to go into a Ge neral Committee to examine the subject, they would and it to be the case, aPfl be enabled to suggest a proper system for remedying the evil, instead of the ridiculous absurd expedtents proposed by the new Budget. A system prey then be established on the Part of their Lordships, .that would enable the far mers to havereliefwithout recurring te snag The J,ORD CHANCELLOR rose, (to a ques tion otOrder) and observed, that he hoped that any of their Lordships when they spoke, would be glad enough to attend to the rule, and that they would speak re order. • • the Karl of CHARLEVILLE presented a Peti tion from the county of Waterford, very numerously =l4 respectably signed, in favour of the Corn apd praying their. Lordships attention to the agrictil twat interests of ireland. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE presented one to the tame effect, from the county ot Kerry, in the same trait of the United Kingdom. His Lordship, s;aerd a few ; words, relative to the nature of the !deit ies, and explaioing the cause why the Petition was sexed he the. High Sheriff only. The LCIRD CHANCELLOR stated, that the, petition, c.or,sistently with the orders of the Hettse.l ceuld be received as that only of the person or persons subscribing the same; and he writhed it to be under swirl, that in cases where petitions were signed by certain persons, as in behalf of all those who were present, the House could' not receive any such, ex.' rcpt es the petitions Of those who actually signed them. The pennon in question was then received, anti orideied to lie on the table, as that of the subscribing iudiyidual. Le.rd GRENVILLE said, he held in his hand a Petioon from a Parish at the East end of the Metro polis, signed by between seven and 8000 persons, and in the short interval of between 12 and 18 hours. Ile mentioned this circumstance as an additiOnal or Corroborating prOof of the general, nay, of the uni versal feeling which prevails in every part of the country to which a knowledge of the measures, now in contemplation, has been suffered to teach, respect ing the injurious, the fatal consequences which must necessarily follow. He had been told that doubts have been entertained as to what was the real feeling of the general mass of the population in this country. Unless he was greatly. misinformed, no hurry that could he used on this subject, however distressing . it may be to see the Legislature running a race with the subjects of the country, in order to pass a una rm= before they could express their opinions ; yet he believed no precipitation could prevent the expression a t i lt , gencsal sentiment or feeling, as the signature of petitions against the measures, not only - by that class of individuals—by those who were the most likely to be directly and immediately affected by their operation—but by respectable landholders—by opulent merchants—by persons not likely to feel themselves so immediately affected by measures op plpiug ea the iunnediata necessaries of life—all praying that no change may take place in the taws; and all urging the well-founded sentiment, that uo *huge can take place in these laws, wEil. 'Out awing, in a most fatal manner, the inte rests ofUbe whose interests, it was supposed, would ty these` Measures be benefited. He • tegretted his ahunce when some discussion took place on this sub ject. He regretted that any opportunity was omitted by him of raising his voice against a measure which, he sincerely believed from the first, to be pregnant :with the most injurious consequences,' He should stow only, say, that lie hoped and trusted—th4t be begged e and implored those, who, no doubt s enter amed different sentiments respecting the measure; that if if ihen t ild pass, yet that it may not be passed with any. appearance of hurry pr precipitation—that 810 impression may exist in the Minds of those who think and feel their hrterestsdeeply affected, that there Bid not exist on the part of Parliament the Most earnest' desire to receive all, the information that could be laid before them,. as to tl:e details of the measure, which seemed yet to be very imperfectly investigated. He Sould not conceive any possible good that could arise from precipitation ; brit; on the contrary, much of an' injtirioes tendency. trou t its being suppOied that such precipitation was used *with any 'hope or with any view cf shutting out from Parliament the representa-' tions of the people. The Noble Lord also presented the Petition,which was from the Parish of St. Luke's, in_the Comedy. of Middlesex. His Lordship then presented one from the town and neighbourhood of Woolwich, in Kent, signed, he said, by betwcen five and 6000 persons, both against any alteration being made in the Corn Laws. These, as well as all the praying Petitions, were ordered to lie on the Table. A few Private Bills were brought up from the Com mons, by Sir THOMAS FILANKLAND. and other Mem bers, and read a first time. AVERAGE PRICE OY WHEAT, OATS, &C. The Earl of DARNLEY rose to move foran ac count of the Average Prices of Wheat, Oats, &c. irom the year 1804 to 1813, both inclusive, at various periods within that interval. The Noble Earl was of opinion, thine specifications would tend much to en 12ghten the very important subject the House would Live to consider, and their Lordships would see from . these returns, that when the average prices exceeded 775. or were nearly W, the• price of the quartsrn loaf' VaS only 125 k He then briefly adverted to the opi., :riot) he had swedyesterday on thictopie, and which' I l e bowed to tioalutajp 4 deeming it scarcely pouible I,hatsinder any miserelplasion, that a price far ex ceeding -110 s. wouldArsng, the price of the quarters' ouf to• 184,1. or an/ tit' lam * .10 . 1* jr. Lord QR.EN,ItUf oepiaion, though the 43 Tr 101041444 aloa•Al s ipir y• his Noble Friend was of e v asidaabje Saspostsuick ) et to bring that part of the pro& IdWELL/MEDI* On the suggestion of Lord agpLIDALx, the case of the Boithiath Peerage was ordered in hi taken into father con* 4emtinn on Thursday, the 15th instant. 41. short Fonyersatios took place Itemises peed Gazwemil. the Leap ena tie in.r.oaj awl the Earl of Leven:4'4, relative io the'ffebton Blectitin Bill, now pending baton the House, in ' whidi the ant mentioned Peer urged the preeriety of ba ring tome distinct day at a - ea* estty period at thalaster Recess, heed for %be COnfierellipl of the nweenro, Ho ober* It was necessary the oc4cr should be set the iubjigt 411(9re the re• teas, and slightly adverting to the Orden made last Feast" when a similar Sill was before the House; Mena to intimate his in tention to propose the (attar cooliderMion el the subject on Moaday. The Report of the Scott Juries Bill belegttheit 4uo creshieri• don, some further dismission of the subject, in width the IeORD ChANcLLLOI, the Earls of Leonetti's."' and iiiinwors, aid Lord Gar NVILLI were the Speakers, mein farther amendments, particularly on the point of constit oda; theiuriss. woof adopted. Lord UKENVILLE, in concleslon t szpremed bla enrobadon of the measure, and generally, of 414 Ateration that tad been made. He particularly' approved of the provision for bringing the subject annually ander the consideration of Parliament. The Earl of MORTON shortly expnsied his disapprobation of the measures The itellort being agreed to, the Bill wee ordered to be en grossed, and the House immediately adjourned till Monday. HOUSE OF COMMONS. • ' Lord F. Osooattit presented a Petition from Hertfordshire, aglinst any revival of the Property Tax.—Ordered to lie on the Table. The Ramsgate Harbour Bill was read a second time. after some observations. from S:r W. CURTIS, Mr. P. Moods, Sir C. Mo out, Mr. Serpant Be. r, Mr. LidiliToll, Sir H. MONTirir assay, Sir E. KNATCaIuLL, Mr. Warirraii.gT, Mr. Alder man s Sir J. NLWFURT, Mr. Cracitary, and General GASCOT Ye, and ordered to be committed. A Message from the Lords announced that their Lordships had agreed to the Exchequer Bills Bill, without making any amendment. Mr. MALTA!, presented from the Corn Exchange Accounts of the Weekly Returns of the Average Prise of Wheat and Flour sold in the City of London, from the 37th of the King to the pre. sent time.—Ordered to be printed. A person from the Common Pleas presented wi Amount of all Fees received on Dockets within the last seven yeamemtOrde• rsd to lie on the table. PETITIONS AGAINST THI CORN BILL. Mr. ROSE presented a Petition from Clerkenwell, 'very numerously signed, against any alteration i t a the Corn Laws.—Ordered to liq on the table. Mr. G. LAN TON presented a Petition from Tiverton and sundry other parishes against any alte ration in the Corn Laws.—Ordered to lie on thesable- A Petition was presented from Rochdale against the Corn Laws.—Ordered to lie on the tabk. Lord G. BE R ESFO RD presented a Petition from the County of Waterford against the Corn Laws.— Ordered to lie on the table. Mr. FINLAY presented a Petition from theTrades' House, Glasgow, against any alteration in the Corn Laws.—Ordered to lie on the table. Mr. P. MOORE presented a Petition from the City of Coventry against any alteration in the Corn Laws at the present moment, as its tendency would be so materially to affect the commercial and trading classes of the community : it was signed by upwards of nine thousand persons. He trusted that, in mov. in g for leave to bring tic this Petition.. he should be indulged iu a few words, as they were due to his con stituents. They had borne all the burthens of the war (at least an ample share of those burthens) with . the most exemplary patience.—(l#ar, hear, hear ) They saw the difficulties with which the war fixed the country ; but they justly looked forward to the period when peace should arrive, as the tim; when the nation would be relieved from many of its bur thens. It seemed, however, that they, in common with the country at large, were to be disappointed. Their opinions on this measure still were what they last year expressed them to be : they remained w ithered, or it they bad altered, they were more deci dedly against the principle of the Bill. Such he be lieved to be the case with the whole country, and that if the opinion of the people hall altered since last year, it bad only altered in extent against the MU. sure • for he felt convinced, that where the House re • ceived fifty Petitions last year against the proposed alterations, they would this year receiire fi ve hundred, should th e 13411 be persevered in. Thd Petitioners had expressed the tear that its promoters were at tempting to hurry the measure through the House, without giving fair time to the country to express an opinion on it; and from what be had seen, he regret ted to say that he thought they had properly ex pressed such fear. He trusted the House would see the propriety, at consulting their own dignity and the feelings of the people, by proceeding with that deli beration which would allow the country time to ex press their opinion; (Or if they did not, it would give the people but too much reason to say that the House . . had decided their cause without hearing their evi dence.—( liar.) Mr. BUTTERWORT?, (the other Member for Coventry,) seconded the Motion; observing, , that nearly the whole population of that City had signed this Petition, which besought the Mouse not to make any alteration in the Corn Lawa at prowl*. He thought it was the duty of the House to pay noconi mon attention to such Petitions; and as the extraordi.' nary rise which had recently taken place in the price of grain had already created a serious alarm through. out the country respecting the tendency of this mea sure, he hoped that time would be allowed to enable the House to learn what the opinion of the Nation really was on the subject. To precipitate the mea sure could do no good, and might be productive of much harm. As to the course which be should pur sue, he should most undoubtedly support the lower of the Petitioners in every stage of the Bill. The Petition was, theu brought up, read, and orde red to lie on the table. Mr. CALygier presented. a Petition from the Parish of Christ Church, florrey, preying that no al. teration might be made in the Corq,Law.s. The olthr ' - 4 pp, p4latiop __ parish amounted, toi 1.009, including women and children, and, go Petition was signed by upwards of 3QOO persons, Although the Retitionen did not complain of having borne a7l the burdens of the war, (likt those of Covegtry, according to an Ho. nourable Member, Mr. P. Moore) they just 4 l7. urged the extensive burdens which they had bprne, and with nnexampted patience, in common with, the rest of the country, as reasons ag4inst ,11 die WA? 4ency of Which they could not degas Pe. . was then broogbi &rod to lie on the table t Sir EDWARD KNATCHBULL presented a Petition from Woolwich against any revision of the Corn Laws, signed by several thousand persons.— Ordered to lie on the table. , Mr. Alderman ATKINS presented a Petition from the Ward of Bishopsgate against the Property Tax. signed by upwards of 3,000 persons.—Ordered to lie on the table. 4 . 5 H. DALRYMPLE presented a Petition from the county of Ayr, against any revival of the Property Ti;. and any revision of the Corn Laws.—Ordered to lie on the table. Mr. MELLISH presented Petitions from Saint Mary's, Whitechapel, and sundry other Parishes, which he did not name.—Ordered to lie on the table. Mr. SHAW LEFEV RE presented a Petition from Reading, praying that no alteration might be made in the Corn Laws. It was signed by upwards of 3900 people, and the number of signatures would 113ve been considerably increased but for the haste which the Petitioners found it was necessary use in sending up their Petition.—Ordered to lie on the table. A Member presented a Petition from St. Clement's Danes, Westminster, against any alteration in the Corn Laws.—Ordered to lie on the table. MARINE MUTINY ACT. Mr. CitOKER moved for leave to bring in a Bill to regulate his Majesty's Marines when on shore, &c. As it was simply a renewal of the usual Marines' Mutiny Bill, detail would be unnecessary.—Leave given. Mr. Croker afterwards broUght in the Bill, which was read a first time, and ordered to be lead a second time on Monday next. PRIVATE PETITIONS The SPEAKER deemed it right to inform the House, that on Monday next was the last day for receiving Private Petitions, and that as such was the case, he should take the Chair at a quarter past three, it enabled to do so by the attendance of Members. • CORN BILL. On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the Exam- QUER that this Bill be read a second time : Mr. LAMBTON deprecated the haste with which such an important measure was attempted t 4 be hur ried through its stages, and stated that from his con viction of the propriety and necessity of delay, it was his intention to move, that instead of now, the Bill be read a second time this day six months. He would never consent that a measure should pass that HOWE against which the voice of the people had been so ge nerally anal unequivocally expressed. Mr. J. SMITH was also in favour of delay. He observed that the distress of the farmer had been great from the distress of credit, and not from the quantity of corn imported. The corn of our last harvest wasl also of an inferior quality, by which the farmer had sustained a loss. It had been asserted that this coun try could grow corn enough for its own consump tion : he was of this opinion, though the quantity produced in the last two years might justify a con trary inference. As our population had so greatly increased within the last •ten or twelve years as to amount to 17 or 15,00,000 more than when the pre. ceding census was taken, of course an increase of agriculture was necessary for their subsistence.— When, therefore, it was clear that this subject affec ted the whole population of the country, he thought that much more tiMe ought to be given to tli cicisi deration of it than it had - yet received, if it were only to obtain the sense of the country, by the reception of the numerous petitions that were in preparation. —The subject of the average had not, in his opinion, undergone sufficient discussion. It was also desirable to hear further evidence, that the House might see its way more fully. lie had read the evidence of last year ; and was not convinced Item it, that the yet ecting price ought to be Ms. ; because the per. toils who so expressed thomselves had formed their opinion from the state of the taxes, and the price of labour at the time. If labour should fall 15 or 20 per cent. unquestionably the farmer would be bent:. Stec!, and enabled to sell his corn at a cheaper rate. He thought that a fall in the price of labour was in levitable ; for though it had been said, that when the Militia were disbanded, and the Seamen still em ployed were discharged, these great numbers of per turbs who would be thrown on the public would not be inclined to labour, yet he was of a different opi- Dion. Persons who bad been abroad, or pent up tor years on ship-board, were always anxious to return to labour when they got home, and this would taus: the price of labour to fall. Then, when this happen ed, there could be no question that 755. or even 11'1.1 would be a fair protecting price. He was p:rsuaded, that if the Bill was precipitately passed, it would have the effect of exciting disaffection and tumults. He was aware that the agricultural interest was as important as any other in the country ; but if greater time were not given for the consideration of the sub ject, it might be supposed that the decision bad been produced by interested motives. On these grounds he should second the Amendment. Mr. BABINGTON agreed with the Honourable Gentleman who spoke last. While it was admitted `ohm respect should be paid to agriculture, and that the people should be fed from their own soil, the claims of commerce ought not to be forgotten. Our' navy could not be kept up without foreign trade ;-- and manufactures could not be produced, unless la bour and all things dependent upon it were precut.- able at a reasonable rate. The Hon. Gentleman' then alluded to the improved state of the Continental manufactories, in proof of the struggle which our' trade would have to make for future success, and contended, that as commerce and manufactures were OUT natural amity, we ought to take care not to, press any pqint that might endanger them. He thought, that as the price of labour and the rents of landkought end would gradually sink to what they were.in 14)4, that 80s. was far too high as the per manent protecting price of corn. No doubt corn could be grown much cheaper in Ireland than in this country, even as cheap as in France, where the ex port Kohibitpry price is fixed it. 401. If therefore the Nish farmer had SSA., he would. have a sufficient . stimulus.f.or Mending his icultural pursuits ; and 'Wk. with ARland) . wois2 go very far toward stlßßlying,our wants. The ',natural rise that had titkew. Pc, *Mts. Irak owing to. thik unnatural chars, of @tents since 1.66, and they tnust be re. gesepon=22 subject V i art4o Howe, ' .' ' • fit " r.O .rices of • in tV4 II II alitime. ' I ,__T g , is at t 744:- .‘ • A a .u... 111 044 . a I na " " ITI I o 41 t, ly 11 0 . 3 will! 4110 4 . P roposed, il . In ds i n sha WIT of explanation S'oltl !att. V 0 lost oitto r .gust teed su *dons trait the pub- si r 'ere submsited to the effeit stated, and the accounts q? 44 : 4 ttlf":, ordered to lie produied accordingly. piNtely price of corn. kolity.iirefet l l l V I W NinituM.L but, . 'Pt Mt Sulltainki thetrutb, rio should feel • telt - WO to eop- c P r "r. e cation Tas - theu bp:night up, read, end or. C doted to enible Our farmers to live. We ono ht n o t ti grow quite enough for our own conmimption, in or. der that our manufactures might he taken in ea. change for the portion supplied by foreigners. If te., :do, w e shall derange commerce ; and in older that no such derangement might he hazarded, a modetate impoa44ipn Wpuld he delfirable. Sir JOHN NEWPORT declared that nobody was more concerned for the nunufacturing i n u res , than himself I and if lie bepeved that this Pleasure, while it benefited the agrieultural interests, w ou ld injure our manufactures, he would not po sppn p r oi t wo it.- 07 o ß f u t t h a e great emp ir p e rop t : e r e t e io l n oo o k l it t l l : 7 agri c ultural thedeliberations that House, under unexampled pressure. Lir Ireland the great proportion of the whole population -ewe wholly dependent upon agriculture, and it they w e re not encouraged, they must absolutely starve, as they had no relief from poor laws. He could prove that the majority of the labouring poor inli tilt mid di; been, 'from the middle of November till of January, waiting for agricultural Lhour, and had not been able to gain .t day's employment. He would appeal to the manufacturers, and ask them whether they w •tild wish such a I age proportion :si the Irish population to be placed in such a Sitii.t:lcn and also, whether, by withholding the bkasings with. in their reach, they would hazard keeping that poo l . lation in a condition that would inaku them &Inge. roue to the rest of the community ? The Right Hon. Baronet then quoted, from a statement of we population of certain manufacturing districts in lit. land, the numbers devoted to agriculture, and misted thtin with those employed in manufactures, and proved that even in th.t;e places de proportion of the agriculturists was as two to one oldie aitisans. From this lie drew the inference, that the checking of the agriculture of Ireland would be vitally telt in every part of that count y. lie then .repeated the arguments he had lately advanced respe,ting the benefit derived by our manufacturing interests, from the interchange with Ireland of their v.-is for core, and contended that as, by the prohibition of all lu reign manufactured goods, Ireland had been mad completely dependent upon England, it was but right that she should look to her for relief. At vv.. sent, however, he contended, the want of confidence between the two countries had b: come so gicat, that their commercial intercourse was nearly suspended. He deprecated the Amendment now proposed, the interest of which was evidently to put off all tattier discussion for another year. It had been urged that the delay would give time far petitioning agawst the Bill from every part of the Empite; but it the tame pains had been taken in Ireland, to prodace on the opposite side of the question, as had beta taken here, against the Dill, there could be no doubt that they would have been proportionably numerous. In all questions concerning subsistence, the 11 u,c ought to use its own discrelion, and not be ssaayed by Petitioners, for it was well known that the peopl! at large, so tar from considering what was their real -interest, would be ready to purchase a cheap leaf for the present, though inevitable faunae should be the future consequence. The Right Hon. Baronet, alta much farther argument in behalf of Irelarid,concliiii• ed with strongly deprecating delay, ;is tending la drive the country into situation to which ev,:iy r.t• tional man must lament to see it reduced. Sir FREDERIC:Ii FLOOD considered the amendment to be monstrous, and contended that de lay would have the effect of throwing Ireland into a state of agitation. He would tell those who hai asserted that the Ifslt homer WAS n o t oppressed 'ay taxes, that there was almost ever y tax ill Lion croft• try as in England : there was the horse-tax,,the se:- vants'•tax, the window -tax, and there was ere other wirier the people of England knew nothing :boar, but which he wished to see introduced, as it woure fall upon the rich—he meant the heotiotax. 1 - le repeated many of the argumenis that had been ad duced in behalf of the jut aAriculturist, and atter descanting on the mrcessity et both parts of the em pire being on the most friendly touting to ether, he concluded with giving his decided nogative to the amendment. Alderman C. SMITH said, the amendment thettld have his vote, as a pure friend to his country. To oppose it would look as if the House was a•raid to give time for receiving the Petitions, the prayers of whitar would prove irresistible. Mr. LAMBERT said, that he had had many op portunities of witnessing the ex:teme distress of agri cultural !aboard's. Since the last recess more corr. plaints had been made to him of want of weri:, than he had ever heard since he had been in the cerno mission of the peace. An opinion had gone forth that this measure would raise the price of corn : ht;: how was this elite' to be produced? All enquiries into the state of the corn market at this time, prove that it is very low and dull. As far as pools would go, be was confident that a rise in the price was not the elect to he (cared. Lord MILTON, although be was ready to ad. mit that the principle of free trade was the true piia ciple to produce equal benefit, yet could not be c:;i• lows to the present distressed state of the agricuitLya; interetes. The cheapness of corn was of no atlvart• cage to the labourer, wilt") he ct.uld not get emplo;.- nrent. The Noble Lord, to sliew the general d;:• tress which prevailed at tais time in Yorkshire, men tioned a town the whole population a wl .icl► con sisted of :3,000 persons, and one-half of whom were actually receiving parochial relict. In the manuf.to curing part? of 1 orkshire the distress was exactly 11' Same as in the manulacturing towns. lie would asN, were we to shut our eyes against the impending slot of the farmer, or were w e to ru in him and stirve ( labourer? It some means were not taken to r elit:•:c the farmer from his distressed situation, he had no hesitation in saying, that in a few years the a i :ticl:: , ture of the country would be destroyod. His I.e r-!- . ship, at the same th,ught, that the effect a: the Bill would be much improved by not being m.' , - 1 permanent. The quantity' of Coro last year was very inferior to that of the year precechug. The le" turns of old corn two months ago were at "0.3- he did not think this was a price which would reduce the farmer. He objected at present to laying down any thing like a permanent system. He had fires: diffidence in coming to this conclusion ; but he sa the unparalleled distress of agricultural psopettY, ar. 4 , wAs,coneincad that, it would be. completely destroy.; the qetem was much longer continued. Whew,: the price ought to be 725. or 755. as a permanell • he was not prepared to say ; but he thous. M0.M.m.1•1 W