Star. — London, England, 1815-02-28 00:00:00

-- r t .., :. we will but gwe it fair play. He had no.objec tion to the affOrding of • all possible Protect**, to agriculture ; but he would contend, that the manu facturer has been the only benefactor of the land holder. His labour has done more service to the landed interest than any thing else whatever. Let us then have prices that will enable us to send the wealth of this• nation to other countries; let the traf fic be got into this shape again, and we shall conti nue to be, what we always have been, the envy of the world. Mr. YORKE observed, that the House appeared to be going again into the general question, which; when it was before considered, seemed to be only a question of degree as to price ; and it was then evi dent, that though a difference of opinion prevailed as to what ought to be done, yet every Gentleman thought that it was necessary to do something. For his own part, he thought the question required as much deliberation and earldom as any that had ever come before that House. He had heard the insinu ations that had been thrown out against the land holders on a former evening, as to their wish to bol ster up the price ; and all he would say was, that there might be equally as many insinuations made on-the opposite side of the question ; but if such a mode of allusion prevailed at all, it Would be but fair to say, that one person may as well be informed as another. Every Gentleman in that House cculd have but one view on the subject, which was, that it was necessary to decide on the measure . in the most impartial manner. The interest of the grower and the consumer must be admitted to be the same; and theraime, by setting tip a diversity•of opinion, .no good 04utd• be done to die cause of either. The Right Moitektrablr Gentleman complimented an Ho nourable Member who spoke on a preceding evening (we believe he alluded to 14r..1.11. Grant), for pla cing the question on its true ground, by stating that the restraint would prove whether this country de pended on herself or foreigners; and that if it turned out that we should become dependent upon France, he would then alter his opinion. This was the ground on which he should wish to put it. If we could be made independent of all foreign countries for food, it would be the most desirable event that could hap pen. It would be highly desirable, that as France is, and must ever be, our natural filial, we should not be dependent upon her for any portion of the ne ccsearies of lite. But we were in fact only now acting upon the sante system as had prevailed in the time of Kilig William and Charles IL and which had been attended with the most advantageous results.— No doubt, Gentlemen wen: bound to spew that a ne. cessity existed for this interference ; but if they would look into the documents before them, they-would see the neces,ity admitted and proved. Let them look at the petitions with which their table was covered, let them also look throughout the empire, and They would see such getter il distress amongst the agrictil• total branches as never occurred before within the 111 in iry of man. It then cnly remained to be con sidered to what extent relief could be afforded. He would protest against the view that had been taken, of consid,rinn the United Kingdom of Great Britain in the %sine snuatien as the city of Hanoveror Ike men. lie would deny that this was a cotrtmrci.d and agricelsural country to the extent that had . .beers *Wilde& t:• ; that it was a great eonirtierdial (MUTT, WAS well known, and he trusted it *cad always ion tiliue to be so ; but it was lilo:wise a great agricul tural country. Nay, even if its Comincece and ma nefiactures were to be annihilated, it would still con tinue a great comitry, and maintain its independence throughout Europe. It certainly neither had been, trot cculd be so dependent upon its manufactures as the Honourable Baronet, who had just spoken, had conceived it to be. But those who think that our shanutactures, which had continued to flourish dur ing the extraordinary events of the long revolutio nary war, will be equally successful now the na tions of the Continent are in a state of profound peace, - mAy find themselves egregiously deceived. The, French people, now brought back to order, would be anxious to prevent their introduction.— At ail events it would be too much to suppose that vac o i titt ,ao sacrifice every thing to our manufac mai% t : the advocates of the'manufatturing in- UMW ha not condescended to tell us in what man ner tbepvc.Owel measure would have the effect of raising the price of corn. if our manufacturers should not henceforward be able to compete with foreign countries, the circumstance would not be owing to this measure. But the Bill was not intend ed to raise the price of corn ; its objoct was to pre. vent the foreigner from coming into this country with his produce, to the injury of our own, and even to an extent which would be ruinous. For many years after the prices had been fixed, from an early part of the last century till 1731., the ;nice was always lower than it had been before, because the. agriculturist felt• himself so much at Lao! as to be able to afford corn at a reasonable price. It would be the height of ab sordity.to give the coinmunity' reason to believe that fora year or two only, they might have emit .at a! very law price, awl after that to let them have the prospect of its bring considerably dearer. It was folly to talk of the impossibility of this country not being alit.: to grow corn enough for its whole con sumption. From a calcidation which he held in his hand it appeared, that taking Great Britain and Ire land together, the superficial contents were sixty-three millions of acres, and the population of the empire about seventeen millions. Supposing that twelve Millions out of the seventeen eat wheaten bread, and Ildt the test subsist on oats or other corn, and that eadi ofthe former portion consumes about a quarter`of wheat, does any man believe that the load will ilot produce the whole of the quantity re tited He would admit that he had been a great at:eptic on the subject of the necessity of importation; but lie had altered his opinion on minutely examining into it. In the last year it appeared that 670,000 quar ters of corn. had been imported ;—but of there, 430,000 wetV'imported from Germany, Holland, Flanders, and France, all within the last quarter of a year. He *mild not take into the account any im portations Which might come from America or from Polend, because the circumstances of expense, of fie ght and navigation, and the distance from which they would be `?tight would operate against the in. *eduction of any material quantity ; but as to the importations from'tbiiest of Europe, it would in a moment be seen diii if 43,000 quorters of wheat and 200,000 of oats could be imported in one quarter ol a year frontdountries atbe L s aunt. induct of Tome, ells country could be. in l i tZar of wearies a supply. It was exceeding l y that pee*. who never stir out of their ',localities, and 'whose conditiOn and habit; prevented them hose its vestigating the subject, should wish to have corn as it was no cheap as possible , and so they got it cheap, matter to them whore it came from. It was impos. sible for such people to argue on the subject t . atyl on this account he wool , ' not give way to their (minim It was this outcry fur cheap bread which , demolished the Roman power : Panem et cinema was the demand of the people ; the demagogues joined in the anneal - , and the Government was at last obliged to furnish them with bread gratuitously ; then they neglected the cultivation of their own fertile lands, and looked for their supplies to Sicily and to Egypt : but alter this the hardy faces of the Romans were worn out, the Timeworn mu:colorant were seen no more, and the clamours for cheap bread caused the loss of their liberty, and their ultimate ruin. There was no ques tion, that in the present state of the c o u ntr y corn would be imported cheap, and we should have cheap bread for one of two years; but the consequence would be, that our own agriculturists, particularly within fifty miles of London, would not be able to obtain a proper price for their corn, and would, therefore, cease to grow it ; then we should have our finest land laid down in pasture, and the rest covered with thistles and brambles. Can it then be a matter of doubt for an instant, whether we ought to encou rage foreign corn in preference to our own ? There surely could be no idea of any, thing so absurd. Suppose, for any reasons good, bad, or indifferent, the foreign Powers should, at a future petiOd, stop the exportation of corn, what would become of ns, if, froM its previous inundation, we had suffered the agriculture of our own country to decline ? It bad been said that this country would cease to be great without a preponderance iu commerce and manninc tures. Those who thought so, should cast their eyes . back upon what had lately happened. We had seen k a great country—great without either manufactures or commerce, which had conquered nearly the whole of Europe.—( Hear, hear.)—lie would never admit that the agriculture of our country should be thrown ' back—such a measure would be an act not only of the most serious impolicy, but of injustice ;—and be was persuaded, that if the mattes was fairly stated, the poorest man within hearing of the House would exclaim a No" to such a proposition. With regard to the price, there was a difference of opinion, as to whether k should be 725. 764. or 80s. He was at first rather for the low price; but a low price had always, in his mind, been coupled with the notion of a graduated scale of prices, and he bad thought that if 765. were taken as the first price for opening the ports, then it might be carried up to 80s. or till the price at which corn might be imported free ;—bui when it was resolved to fix a price, without a scale of advance, then he was for 80s. For as the averages are admitted to be incorrect, and as they do not give a fair advantage to the farmer, he had a right to ex pect the higher price rather than the lower. On the %hole, he was never more convinced of anything in his life than that this measure was unnecessary ; and Ice thought that its adoption would not fail to restore that cvntidence which was now lost amongst our agriculturists. It never could raise the price of F hteisii btet its effect would be to give us a'supply hocur, and when a time of scarcity might happen we should be able to get a supply from abroad. On these grounds he should vote fur the reception r.f the Report. Mr. PHILLIPS thought some of the arguments of the Right Hon. Gentleman in support of the nfek sure extremely singelar. Because the factious dem& gogues of Rome, took advantage of the cry for cheap bread, till they raised a clamour that got it them fot nothing, but which caused them the loss of their li t beaks ; we are, therefore, to pass a bill to augment the price of corn in order to secure our liberties..— . (Hear, hear.)—This augmentation not only will be, but already is, the effect of the measure.— (No, w, from several voices.)-.lt was very extraordinary that now the importation of corn could be carried call without interruption, we were called on to fix a price on the commodity. But the Right Hon. Gentleman thinks, that do what we will France and Holland will rival us in our Manufactures. What, then, is the inference ? That we must take artificial means to raise the price of bread, in order to assist foreign countries in rivalling us in our Manufactures. How could it be insinuated, that we should be ruined by importations, when in the same breath it is admitted, that the importations, from France amount to little or nothing ? Besides, would she not be repaid in equivalents ? If we are au importing country, we must necessarily be an exporting country. Now, we could not be an exporting country without having an accession of wealth, and this is the best security the landholders can have. The Honourable Gentleman then alluded to several of his former arguments on the subject, and contended, that as the manufactures 0 France were as good and as cheap as those they could procure elsewhere, the consequence would be. IThat as more labour is employed in mennlactures ;hai l in agriculture in that country, our manufactures: would be affected in a much greater proportion, and in fact they may impede our export of manufactures altogether. The Right Hon. Gentleman, the Chan cellor of the Exchequer, must have believed this when he comes forward and takes off the income Tax / but says he will impose taxes on our manufactures, and his intention is received with applause. But at the very moment when he announces his intention of lay ing a pee manent income tax on every manufacture in this country, at that very moment the House is called on to consider how to cause a permanent high price of grain. Respecting the state of the manufac tures in France, he bad obtained a vast deal of in formation. He had conversed with a Gentleman' who had returned within these few days from that country, and who had seen most of its cotton facto. ries. He was decidedly.of opinion, that they were not only in general equal to our own, but that on the whole they were Watt: the reason was, that most of them had been recently established, and that the recent mechanism of those of this country had been introduced into them, while the mechanism of our old establishmeats had been omitted ; therefore they had the full advantage possessed by ours. Ife•tittn encouragement is given to' Fleilleh maindantOes,' by our increasing thi prig. of grain, and laytt y a: tax on our manufacturers at home, he would sa y,; that th is is the coasoauNition of folly. Ka was g one' 'llstimislisitshat any Glendeman baW suppoCelblit-* country like this could be sieved, if slot anp?lit4l woilerhemadcaltheirfilfamits wea"cirthfrostomibr*::"'"ktrceaureth:cuoltsinctrht2 It happened, that all the richest sot/strive in the world were commercial countries ?. BUt without a conti nuance of our great commercial PrePeaerlinee• hew could we in future support our navy, or procure oar seamen ? We were told on another occasion, that if we were to rely on foreign countries for our supply, the whole navy of England could not import se... Good Goa ! (said the Hon. Gentleman) is not this, then, the very reason why the British. farmer does not :want protection? In the very nature of things he is pro tected. The Hon. Gentleman then read an extract from a pamphlet by Mr. Torreus, iu support of his own opinions, and observed, that as the Honoura ble Member for Glasgow had had the cendour to acknowledge that he had changed his opinion, he was not without a hope that, after he had read this pamphlet, he would feel ihclined to change it again. (Laughter.) In short, it would be found, that the leaving of commerce and agriculture to make their way according to the natural order of things, would be the best protection that could be afforded to both. The duties imposed by us on Cotton would be ano ther most material advantage to the French manu facturer. We lay Sd. per lbs on cotton imported it. fOreigri ships, and ld. per lb. on that imported in oyr own. This is one reason why France, who im- , .. sea no duty at all, will become the ditot of cotton, ' 'm which we shall be obliged to import it into this cOentry. And again, -with respect to grain, while 'we are doing all. we can to prevent ourselves from 'deriving advantage from importations, we are at the &Inn time time contending, that if we•do not grow enough for.our own subsistence, we shall be star red. 'The Ron. Gentleman then proceeded to shew what had been the effect of agriculture contrasted with that ,of commerce and manufactutes on our population.— Lln the manufacturing counties it had increased, while in. agricultural districts it had declined. In Nor folk, for instance, in 1690, the number of inhabi tants was 282,895, it was now 291,982; making a 4.l;fference of nine thousand. In the manufacturing county of York s or rather the whole of Yorkshire,', in 1690, the number of inhabitants was 605,269. What is it now ? not less than 978,559, making a difference of considerably more than 578,000. Now let us see where this increase has principally taken place, and we shall find it to be in the West Riding, ;the seat of the manufactures, which now contains traore than the population of the whole county at the period first mentioned. It was absurd to suppose that the millers would sat buy corn when they wanted it. But it appeared to him, that the best practice would be to establish a gradually diminishing ditty, Instead of making it now what it is contemplated if may become hereafter : the effect of this would be to induce farmers to take long leases, and things would ' then come to their natural condition, by approsi, elating to natural agriculture and free trade. Oa the whole, it did not appear to him that any injury' could be sustained by any class of people by the . 61 tl opi i 0 n of a diminishing scale of duty. Mr. BANKES spoke in favour oldie Report of the. 'Resolutions being brought up. He conceived lb: country Fp be, as it were, in it balance of difficulties, iwhlre, however, it was necessary for something t.i be : done,--(f-Mti.)—Nor could he 'Genie= tie mate the measure a temporary one : the system of legislatimi was is this matter of a permanent kind, and it argues a dereliction nom that system to have recourse to a temporary regulation. now. Notwithstanding the arguments u 1 those who assumed the high range of political economy, he still believed a free corn ira;b. to be impracticable, or, if practicable, not desirable. As to the outcry for reducing rents, he never could so consent to place such numbers of landholders of that crisis of tame which must expire before things found their natural price, as some writers still termed it. This natural system would just serve to make as get corn not from any favoured country, not even from our sister kingdom, but from wherever it was to be got cheap. Being most firmly of opinion that the agriculture of Great Britain did not keep pace with its population, be would say turn to Ireland, where labour is cheaper than here, and where your deficiency may be safely and well supplied—( Herr.) —But man lived not only by bread. Were cattle, for instance, no part of fond, as well as corn ? What ever view the House took of the question, they would feel it both advantageous and safe to do something on the subject. How keg would Gentlemen hesitate as to having a supply from abroad, or obtaining it at home ? Norway might counsel them ; Whose fate had -so lately been decided, by depending for her 'supply of corn on foreigners.—(Hear.)—Ml that was here . wanting was for the Legislature to give a confidence to the labouring classes of the agricultural world. What way in which to meet this temporary distress f unless by some Legislative provision be confessed he knew not. The country in fact looked for it- Mr- PHILLIPS shortly explained. Mr. MARRYAT said, if the object of the Bill , was not in reality to raise the price of corn, it niusti be made wut that 80s . was not more than 635. fe France, la contrastienjosickre was one.founli, and the landholder of France was in the same situation As WI he paid 20s. in the pound, where the sum of 275 odd millions of livres was paid by the 36 remaining de s penmen's, after she had been dismembered of -/-2.i Upon this statement, it would be seen that the laiiiP holders of this country were not prevented from corn:: petition on account of lases. An Honourable Gen deman (Mr. Whitbread) had I i unii . g.it proper to call upon him, the other night, to di.Tily r e tht! ani;)iitit of his profits in trade. It was certainly quite ai fair, in turn, to call upon that Honcurable (I , ialcfnan to state the amount of his own profits in the course of the last year, when, be douktect not, the public would be convinced that while he paid such attention to their interests, he bad not neglected his own.— (Loud high,.)—He thought the present Resolutions went 'beyond what the interests of agriculture require, and he should, therefore, vote against the bringing up of the Report. Mr. 1). GIDDY wished the House to reflect how far it would encourage the progress of emigration ; but as ae had only the alternative of paying more for bread, or of depending on foreign lands for a supply of corn, he should, considering all circitm. stances, vote for the Report being now received. He was certain that the effect of this measure would be to prevent provisions from being immoderately deer. • • . " 7 1 ••i• • .4.1- 1 - ' • Much had ales been gait as to 'clueing dye Miner but low rents 'sight opernfe gait' e as laintioaltruathe farmer and his produce as higher ones. • Mr. BARING rose in consequence of the drew rations of which he bad been made the subject. Par himself and the Gendemen who took 'that sincef the question which he dide he diielisiesedaq anxiety for popularity, which Meet bestourt-ilendsf!abtrants: .• sures they recommended would Firm interims to the count' y. In most iostances t he was satisfied the interests of the nation were best confided to its gnat landholders; but when they came to discuss a ques tion so immediately affecting their own personal in • serest' as she state of rents, and the value of the pro. duce of land, it was fit they should be cautioned against taking a narrower view; from the bias they must necessarily have, than they were accustotneci take of the tendetcy and effect of measures sul•inin. tett to their consideration. In all this long iliwat;iot,, he had heard nothing in favour of the report now at • the bar; he (Mr. Baring) had heard nothing to satisfy him Si-i' 0 shilliugs ought to be the Protecting prict% vie had Leasd the Agricdturists -cried op, and the . stauufacnrrers spoken of as the -Kum of the earth— ' (iftrrroirs, and load cries of No, ne)—but nothing had been said so justify the proposed importation price,, and he found it opposed in every part of - the report; of the Committee up ;:utirs. He had spoken before,. bet thew was something so absurd• in going in direct: opposition to the report of that Committee withou: one wotd being said which be could ourriider as t. jistification of their taking: such a course, !Owe he would not again go hough the evidence.. lti eottld not but callaheettedtios of the Horse tars .that which bad been the recornmendatiat 'of - Committee. The witnesses were 'greed,* that somtt • piotection to the agricultural interests was necessary: It was generally insetted by them, that with presere. .charges, present tents, and present taxes, 80s. would"! he necessary. Four or five of the persons exaunineci . : had named a lower price. Mr. Maxwell had said: 755. would he a high limiting price--if that could be rnr, the farmer crud have no cauce for corn. : plaint. Mr. Crabtree Fad named 755. Mr. M.tilh 72c. Mr. Giles 765. or from that to is , is. Mr. Webb„ when asked W the - farmer could .afford •gruw• corn at the present prices if his expenses continued: the same ? Answered—•s You ask me that which. it would be absurd to assume—if bread falls ins price, other things must fall with it." Her had heard nothing to reconcile him to the pro.. ceding price of sOs. and unless he did bear WM* eatisfactbry argument for it, he should in the first. instance vote against the report being brought up, from the bar. He controverted the statement which they bad heard, that the farmer's seat was of no importance to the price of grain, and proceeded to, spew the eff.ci of the measure now submitted to them, if it received the sanction of Parliament, must be to bring a quantity of had land into caltivation, which could not be made fit to raise corn upon, bus at a great expense I In replying to the argument used with respect to rents, he stated that it was truei when rents were low, there was no stimulus for for- Olen to exert themselves in the growth of corn, and that high rents rendered exertion necessary. But the, stimulus was found in the low price of their produccii which compelled them to increase its quantity. It; lad been said that 655. per Tinter would cause our! nianuia,.zures to be beaten out of the French Marken' but if the Trice was :anted to ft9s. it wookit enable the F:ench to beat us out of• every other market en the Continent. Manufactures paid more in tales. than agriculture ; should they be ruined therefore o tt e public revenue would materially suffer. It the' price of coin were raised to ROs. Ole county courj: never retuin to a money circulation, but the tuind o. the nation must be made up to the confnirauce to: bank-notes. Mr. FI'I2GERALD rose in consequence of tl'! , language of the Honourable Ginn/email wt..° had just sat down (Mr. Baring), which (eight not to p:i% unnoticed. Tin: topics of the Honourable Gentleman were not calculated for the meridian of the Hcuse Commons, as the expression of the feelings of the House must have convinced him.—(Crier cj' he.7r, .Jr).—He was apprehensive of the decision to wi•ich the Horne must come, but was content that their cha raci ers, both as Representatives and individuals, would, be implicated in the question. Hewould not proceed to exhaust the attention of the House by going at length into a subject as much exhausted as themselvo. Without here entering into the question of population, he could assert, that the increase of population inire land had kept pace with the augmentation of agricul: ture. As far as the qUestion related to our coin, also he was satisfied in the prohibition of grain; every one knew that we had exhausted our specie in the pur chase of foreign corn. Corn in Ireland had fallen from three to four shillings a quarter, and every con sideration of the subject suggested the propriety and fairness of protecting the rising agriculture of that country. He congratulated the House and the country at large on the temper and moderation which had been generally displayed in the discussions on a great question, in which all parties appeared to vai• seder as a common cause, and concluded with his hearty assent to the motion. Sir FREDERICK FLOOD supported the Reso lutions, the propriety of which he thought was milli. fest, not only from the argumentative statements which had been made, but by the decided majority of the other night. He complained of a misconcep tion and misrepresentation of his snerch first, by an Honourable Member (Mr. Whitbread); and after• wards by the Newspapers. But es lie was sure the misrepresentation was the consequence of misconcei. lion, he was willing to acquit both the Honourai.l; Member and the newspapers. He had spoken of tio!• locks, when he was said to have talked Of bulls. IL thought the country ought to grow corn enough to: her own con sumption, especially as she was so V. supplied from Ireland, and ought not to depend n:. France, who would be sure, on the first occavorn • take advantage nt our situation. Mr. WiIITBREAL) was sorry that he have niisunderstood the Honourable Baronet, an l pleased with the readiness with which that Honnura ble Baronet hail changed his bulls to bullocks. N° remembered, indeed, one instance of a complete on mal of that kind being employed in she plough, but from that instance, he thought it nukimpussiole the in Ireland six bulls might be used. I, Alderman ATKINS could by no.ingies. agree the propriety.of the Resoletiona, wl WL. be did nc: think warranted by any information which had co:i