Star. — London, England, 1819-12-15 00:00:00

1... , 1 .: 11: .1 t • • "3 11 4 ! ; li . . 1 . • - 4 i ' , I - -t -- , . ••• go to destroy the original constitutional structure of the House of Commons—(Hear, hear). That snate e, as ivexisted from time immemorial, consisted of the Representation of Counties, Towns, aud Bo roughs. Such it was when Montesquieu said it was a model of perfection. He, for one, could never ad mit the, expediency of any Reform which would ex clude a single particle in the principle of that struc ture—(Hear, hear). It was said, indeed, that the in fluence of the Aristocracy was too great in the Counties, Towns, and Boroughs, and was inconsistent with the mature of popular Representation. But objections of this denription came from persons who did not see the utility of giving the Aris:ocracy an interest in assisting the preservation of the Rights of the People whenever they were endangered. Look te Spain for instance: there a species of representation existed, in which the Arittocracy had no influence. The conse quence was, that when the contest arose between the Crown and the People for the continuation of that form of Government, the People were easily deprived of the rights they had before exercised, because tha Aristocracy, having no interest in upholding them, threw in their weight in favour of the Crown, and turned the balance against the People—(Hear, hear). Faults might be pointed out in the state of our Re.l presentation•—improvements might be suggested— but, for his part, he should be slow to admit the for. suer, or to apply the latter. The Constitution had grown old, it was true ; but it might be compared to a magic lantern, which, from some accidental defect or unavoidable decay, distorted some of the figures it reflected, and gave out others with too feeble a ray. But still there was magic in its operations—(Hear). The Constitution did not, indeed, shed its light upoli splendid paliees or golden temples ! No, it was more useful ;it shewed to our view thick-set dwellings, the. inhabitants of which were all equally protected— (Hear, hear, hear). This was the magic of our Con stitution, that at all times it produced men fir for every exigency of the State—men, who, in' time or internal agitations, put forth their respective systems of policy, and supported them by apt and eloquent arguments—men, who, in time of external war, were capable of wielding the sword, and of illustrating the history of the country. When subjects were suggested for legislative inquiry, whether connected with the Poor Laws, or the Criminal Laws, men were not wanted who would devote to them the lights of ex traordinary talents, and pursue the matter through all its bearings with indefatigable patience—( Cheers). When he reflected that it was the existing Constitti tion which produced such consequences as these, he.' for one, would never consent to any measure which could endanger it--(Hear, hear). He would add one word more. It was for the House to weigh well the necessity of agreeing to some proposition Which would be received by the People as a measure of concilia• lion and kindness—(Hear, hear). If they looked into the histories of the world, particularly that history , upon which Machiavel bestowed the lustre of his genius, they would find that countries commenced tbeir progress towards perfection so soon as the basis upon which they rested began to enlarge itself, and to embrace the interests and affections of the People. They would find also, that countries hastened to de cay in which the People were denied every thing, for a system of this-description tended necessarily to make them violent, and this result was itself speedily fol loWed by the domination of the sword !—(Hear, hear). When the People were vexed by civil dissensions, then' was the time for the rapacity and cruelty of ambitious demagogues, and in such a state of things it was et easy to extinguish the liberties of the People, as CC , put out the lights of that House when the debate wits over. The Noble Lord concluded with moving the following . Resolutions : 1. Taut it is expedient that all Baroness, in which gross and notorious bribery and corruption shall be proved to prevail, should cease to return Mttnbers to serve in Parliament ; proof sitar being Made to allow such of the Electors as Alan not have. Isessrproved guilty of the said offence, to give voter at any Elec tion to be held for the County in which such Boroughs shall be respectively situated. a. The Cit is spipedient that the right of returning Members to setvii bilParilainent, so takes from any Borough which shall bent ban proved to have been guilty of bribery and corruption, should be given to some great Town, the population of which shall not be less than 15,000 persons ; or to some of the largest COuntles. t. That it is the duty of this House to consider of further noon' to detect and prevent corruption in the Election of Mem bxs of Parliament. • 4. That the Borough of Grampound, in which gross and no torious corruption has been•proved to prevail, do cease to send Members to this House. —..The-Noble Lr‘rd sat down amid loud cheers). The SPEAKER read the first Resolution. Lord NORMANBY seconded the motion. He would not go into much detail, particularly as the question had been so ably treated by his Noble Friend. lie supported the motion without any fear of the consequences, because he did not see that it touched any part of the present system. The right of voting was given for the general benefit of the Community ; and if it was found that any individual exercised that right corruptly, there was no doubt that he forfeited it—( Hear ).—lle did not mean to enter into any abstract theory ; he believed that this House was for the most part an equal Representation of the People. Ent it was manifest that in some cases corruption existed ; and he would ask, what kind of a Member' of Parliament was he who was returned by an abiiin of the elective franchise, which /as at once feta& and illegal?—(Hear dear).—As to the efficacy .‘ the remedy seggested," what could be more fair thin to take away the 'right of voting from those who abused it, and transferring it to those who, from their numbers and wealth, had a larger stake in die ' welfare Of the country ? Where was the justice or expediency of confining the elective franchise to such small Boroughs as those in Cornwall, and-Withhold ing it from the large and prosperous Manufacturing Towns? If they were gifted Vith The right of Soling, it would tend in a great measure to draw away - thit! discontent, which, when permitted to collect, for.. -.a itself into a stagnant tc e sdl, that, as. often as it vat ! stirred up, breathed t mosr pernicious pestiletsie around. J.,et the House look to the represented and' unrepresented towns, and they would see, that while the latter were easily agitated and rendered' tumul tuous, the former remained tranquil---Vione, /406 The measure before the Houle' did" not necessarily lead to any general plan of Parliamentary Reform. And if it was rejected; the consequence would be, to make people believer that this House was averse to the adoption of anything in the shape Of Reform::: ( Hear, licer).—kwes ihe'doty-Of the/louse to resist tlic ebullitions unpopular ardour for innovation ; but preessow at the same tint', they should renumber, that its structure was founded upon poraarAffection• and Lll:oantladnitry istrike a thingwh mo k r h e tended s:ve:e t b o lo sh w ak sour e thetf t o b u e nt o ti ns cz, union ; than the adoption of any such measure as that which was proposed by his Noble ir—(Hear). Lord CA SI LER E AG H rose, gi said that he meant to trouble the House with a few observations; and, in the first place. be thought it necessary to recal their attention to" the real practical question, which was at issue. He congratulated the Noble Lord opposite upon the temper with which he ap proached his subject at the same time, he did not think, that the Noble Lord had, in his speech, suffi ciently separated it from a general proposition, which, if followed up, would lead to results inconsistent with the security of the Constitution. There never was a period at which a more morbid sensibility, upon the question of Parliamentary Reform, was more prevalent than at present. Out of doors it was the general theme, and never did a moment arrive at Which it might be agitated with less safety, than the moment at which he had the honour to address the House—(Hear, hear).—There was that violent spirit 'abroad, which undervalued every particular improvement, which refused to listen to any propo sition short of a total alteration of the Constitution- It was, however, a favourable circumstance for the motion of the Noble Lord, that he had conceived its expediency, and had given notice of his intentions upon it, before that spirit, to which he alluded, had manifested itself. He was happy to believe, that the motion did not grow out of any recent agititions, and was not the offspring of any false views of im perfection in the Constitution. But the Noble Lord seemed to conceive, that the practices of which he complained existed nowhere but on this side of the House. Was not the Noble Lord aware, that his arguments would find as copious an illustration upon his own side of the House, as on that to which be more particularly adverted ? It was easy to be shewn, that jiis Majesty's Ministers, who, at pre sent, sat in' that House, h td not fewer consti tuents than- any equal number of Members on the other side of the Hoase (Hear, hear). — Upon the question, however, at isiue, he believed that when they should come to understand each other, a slighter difference would be found between the Noble Lord and himself, than many might suppose. He would not deny the proposition, that when any place now represented in Parliament was convicted of cor rupt practices, to such an extent as to call down the displeasure of the Legislature, it ought to be reformed in such a way as to make it deserving of the confi dence of law— ( Hear, hear). To that principle he had not a particle of hostile feeling in his mind, nor did he believe it was ever opposed in Parliament. On the contrary, it was actually recognised by the Legislature ; and if, in every case which came before the House it was not carried into effect, it arose from judicial difficulties s% hich stood in the way. Last' Session the principle was admitted in three or four different cases—but the only difficulty which occur red, was the mode of legislation upon it. Ofie*Bill connected with thii principle, was sent to the Lords last Session. Another was considetably advanced, and neither met with the least resistance_ from this side of the House. He should feel no hesitation in saying, that any Borough which was convicted of Corrupt practices, ought to be disfranchised—(Hear). Nothing appeared to his view, in the case of Gram pound, which should make it an exception to such rule. The only real difficulty was, when the fran chise was Laken away from that Borough, what was to be done with the franchise ?—(Hear). He would net pledge himself to say, that when he should look into the difficulties arising from that species of Re form, he would not find some locil inconvenience, which would Operate against imparting the franchise to the neighbouring district. It was obvious, that the same course of Reforni which might be appli cable in one instance, might prove highly inconve nient if applied generally. Por instance; it might be felt exceedingly inconvenient in Cornwall, where there was such a number of torourhs i e eta-position. All he contehded 'against was, the g n al principle. Where no local difficulties presented' themselves, there' the principle ought not to be 'resisted. But a was manifest, from the clibitance . of the 'Noble Lord's Resolutions; that he had ralien intothe common fault of creating,a system wlie4 it was unnitetsary, and of treat rig h too upon iniperreel data. If it was the wish of the Noble Lord to tire his motion the cha racter of a plait of Parliamentary Rdortn, he should Say, that that was the *fry thing whicb'he ought to have avoided.. The plan would - perish; fof it would be found that a theory so constructed would operate against the Case, for the theory would become' large, and would be attended with so many incon vemencies, that this, of itself, would be a sufficient reason for rejecting the case upon which it would be foUrided—(Heer, hear). If the Noble Lord had pur sued the straight'and steady path in which he had first advanktd, be (Lord Castlereagh) and the Noble Lord would won agree--(Hear, hear),—for then his object would be 'accomplished, 'without exposing the House to the ince:Ski of binding itself to an abstract principle, and of recordin; upon its Journals ReSo lotions which hereaftei 'might be found most incon venient—(Hear). If the Noble Lord applied 'himself only to the particular case . of Gramßound ; if, for in- Stance, he had asked leave to brinrin a Bill, for dis franehhing that Borough, and for dispo s i ng o f t h e franchise as he should think fit, he (Lord Castlereagh) would not be hostile to it, at least he was not now prepared to look at such a Bill unkindly—( Cheers I) on: the Opposition ).. But the Noble Lord would perhaps admit, that there might 'be reasons why a mode of Reform adapted to one Borough would not be equally so for another. He was only anxious to guard - against the establisment of a nornuisupposed to be equally fitted to every case. Against such a general principle he most solemnly 'protested, for be believed that in such a principle political wisdom did not re side. If they admitted such a maxim, they would perhaps only furnish arms for their own destruction. No doubt, the 'Noble Lord had no wish to let in any such danger, and be hoped, therefore, that the Noble Lord would add one more to the many proofs of his attaChitielit to the - Constitution which he had giSen in the temperate manner in which he had treated the question, by taking the particular instance ia Esino_f(ivesr Gram c. pound, tind founding' oil it a lii might ord. notice all the P ecu li ar i t i es i n Mint' . Corwleaft if 'he chose ; but the•tases should be taken separately, as often as an instance should occur, • winweitt - dse fiderposition of the Legitlittilto was ne-' carna l* drawn ri-4 r i nt e o ar the kea inforisist n e e st likuse ies whiwchouwoldunld°tresthitelnt from the adoption of a general principle. (When the Noble Lord sat dome, he was cheered for several urinates by the Opposition). • Mr. TIERNEY, upon the part of his Honourable, Friends and the Country, thanked the Noble Lord I opposite most sincerely, for the manner in which he received the proposition of his Noble Friend—(Hear,l hear).—He believed he might also presume, on the part of the House and the Country, to thank his Noble Friend near him, for having brought the sub ject in qdestion under the consideration of the House —(Hear, hear, hear).—He congratulated the House, upon one result which was now obtained, that they had an answer to give to the charge so often made against it, that it refused to sanction any Reform, whether it was grounded on a general system, or a particular case—(Hear, hear).--After what had just occurred, he did not wish to urge a single principle which could excite the slightest hostility from the other side of the House. No doubt them was a general principle, which he was most anxious to I see adopted ; but he would refrain from enforcing it now—(Hear, hear).—Upon all questions of Parlia mentary Reform, he would be thankful for every thing he could get. He did not deny that he wished for mere than had yet been admitted. The Right Honourable Gentleman then proceeded to recapitu late the concessions of the Noble Lord opposite, for the sake of understanding them clearly, and ex pressed his wish, that if the question should arise, whether the franchise to be taken away should be given to a large county or populous town ? the latter should be preferred. He hailed the proceeding of this night as an omen of great good to the-country. He could not, however, refrain - from saying; that the principle for disposing of the franchise for which he was contending, was already sanctioned by the Noble Prd opposite at the time of the Union of Ireland. If his Noble .Friend would follow his advice, he would immediately close with the Noble Lord's ffer, and - he was ,confident in the hope that the effect of it would - be eminently useful to the country—(Hear). Lord CASTLEREAGH would support the Bill, but had, at the same time, stated his opinion, that it could not apply to Cornwall. He was not bound by any particular view of Parliamentary Reform, and wished theory to be kept clear of. Mr. W. WYNNE thought that the particular case of Grampound should be before the House before any general ground could be taken upon it. M g r. VALENTINE BLAKE was of opinion, that the mode of returning Members for Counties stood in need of no reform. Lord JOHN RUSSELL then rose and said, he had to express his best thanks to the Noble Lord op posite, for the sentiments which he uttered - upon the occasion, and to the House in general, for the man ner in which the discussion had been carried on. He *was ready to acknowledge that the Noble Lord had given him every assistance last Session, when he in troduced a Bill respecting , the Borough of Gram pound; but, on the present occasion, the Noble Lord had indeed gone much further than he could have previously expected. Under these circumstances, he should be sorry to take up the time of the House by any further observations. He understood the Noble Lord to say, that be would not object to a Bill, the principle of which was to disfranchise the Borough of Grampound, and transfer the right of suffrage to large towns—(Hear, hear).--Ple had only further to observe, that after the Christmas Recess---. [Mr. TIERNEY—You may a; well do it sooner—say this week].—Lord JOHN KussELL—Then on Thurs day next he would move for leave to bring in a Bill to disfranchise the Borough of Grampound, and transfer the suffrage to some large populous town. At present he would not say which was the particular town he meant should be benefited by the Bill ; but he would observe, that the choice was not to be de termined by the large extent of the population merely—(Hear, hear,/..—The Noble Lord then with drew his Motion. Lord MILTON laid he had one observation to throw out for the.consideration of the House r . which he hoped would meet with serious' attention. He wished that a rule might be made, which *odd con fer upon places that were once in possession of the elective franchise, but whose power was obsolete, a sort of preference to the benefits of any such alteration as the proposed one in Gramionnd, that might be made in future. . Lord CASTLEREAGH - id:bed he might be un derstood as not at all pledging himself; by consent ing to this Bill, to lay down a universal principle which was to apply to all'the Boronghs in Cornwall, He was governed in his decision relative to the Bo rough. of Grampound, merely by taking into consi deration the merits of the case—(Hear, kern). EMPLOYMENT OF THE POOR IN IRELAND. Me. Alderman WOOD moved for leave tobring in a Bill for the Encouragement of the Fisheries, Truk, and Manufactures of India:by regulating Partnership Companies in that part of tbe • Mr. FOSTER odd, the BM did not contain a word about the Fisheries and blinufactures of Ireland; but it west to alter the law that bad been long establi s h e d by numerous decisions the Irish Courts, which would be attended' with much incon venience, and therefore hoped the worthy -Alderman would al low things to remain as they were. Mr. PLUNKirI - Poiuerved that ilte Bill w•ent to sweep away a great body of laws, that had been long established in Ireland, sad were mill known to the commercial world, and to intro duce new laws in their room. • , • - Alderman WOOD had no private objeekto gain by the. Bill he wished to introduce • and if the Irish Members chose to set themselves against it, h e was very willing to withdraw it. By the law, as it then stood, an anonymous partner, a s be was called, ilfight. by simply looking at the bOoks, become liable to the whole of his fortune; and he had known of. one who had become so liable to the amount of £50,000. Lord JOCELY N should support any measure that had for its object to imaisfer tit- Ireland part of the capital of England.— Leave wee given to bring in the Bill. SEIZURE ON A RMS. Lord CASTLEREAGH moved-the Order of the , Day fokthe.House going into a Committee on the Seizure of Arms Bill. Mr.LAMBTON re-stated what lie had mentioned on a former evening, relative to the tranquillity of the County of Durham. Every thing was quiet among the colliers; and an extraordinary statement that bad appeared in a Ministerial Newspaper, bad been contradicted by the Magistrates. Ho should .move an instruction to the Committee,' that the Bill should not extend to the County of Durham, though he should not take the sense of the Hanson the sub ject, being aware of the result. Mr. POWLET stated, that at a numerous Meet- IMI ling of the Magistrates of the County, held 1 barn, they had come to the resolution, tha t i t necessary the Yeomanry should be kept on 1 . mint duty. The motion was then negatived. Mr. BIRCH moved that the County of Nn.,; ham should be exempted froin the o2et.a ion of . Bill. Out of 10,000 persons in that Cou nt y . a wards of 3000 were idle , . Lord 11.ANCLIFFE stated the County of .N,Nti; ham to be in a state of perfect tranquillity, t' in one parish 1000 persons Were out of employnli The House and the Noble Lord ought to tecos what had been the effect of similar laws in hely For himself he should say, that s!iould any at.q be made to enter his house i n t h e night. he , feel it to be his duty and his right to resist sue 4 i intrusian by force. Mr. DgNMAN spoke to the tranquillity bet':l the Town and County of Nottingham. Mr. R. MARTIN observed, that the Bill rl affect no poor man that had arms, for a lawful post. Had the Bill been for the preserrat:- z game, no objection would have been mare tot Clause—( Hear, hear, and a laugh). The Ntotion of Mr. Luca was then negati l without a division. twu I, o t' rly ier t ;is ‘v bi`2. Mr. PROTHEROE stated, that not only f actual documents before the House,. but Guns ac t information, he was aware that 'thee was a wi.. spread conspiracy against the Constitution, and the People had been worked on by artful men, wished to raise themselves on the ruinsof the ' , tution, and whose attempts it Was the duty of . friend to his Country to repel. Sir GEORGE ANSON trusted he need not that he vievre 1 , with the deepest regret, the cir . stances which had rendered necessary the early sembling of Parliament ; and the advantage w ;. had been taken by some persons in the districts which the existing discontent was chiefly confined, increase the fernieat, and to foster the spirit of ' affection for their own purposes. He would not vent to the proceedings of the 16th of Au,ttist, but could not resist the opportunity of expressing his prise and regret at the conduct of that House in fusing to institute an inquiry into the transactions a day which would for ever be recorded in hi . as one on which the blood of his Majesty subj., had been wantonly and uselessly shed. Althnu o he allowed that there was cause for alarm, I.e pressed his conviction that that cause had been great; exaggerated, for the purpose of obtaining the or curreace of Parliament in measures hostile to freedom, and repugnant to the feelings of Engli men. The principle on which the Bill before House proceeded was so totally at variance with spirit of our free and enlightened Constitutio contrary to the liberty, and so destructive of right of Englishmen—a right hitherto always knowledged—to retain arms for the defence of the. selves, their families, and their property—that could not but wonder at the introduction of so • trary and oppressive a proposition. It he exam; • the grounds of such a proposition, lie must say, the evidence on the table of the House of Com. , by no means justified so violent a proceeding great an infringement of the rights of the People. many places there was no disaffection—nu tii:nr _ ance. The House had that night heard All f ar. able able Member for the County of ourharn, and tf Honourabie Members for Nottinghamshire, on the part of their Constituents, any necessity such a measure. The same had been done on arm riser night by an Honourabie Member fur North2' berland. Why was the imputation •.vhich the coreyed to be thus thrown on the ? V; • it just that all should be thus indiscriminately brae with sedition ? Because there was a singiemandic turing town in a county, and that t 0.% n haofveil to be in distress, was it fitting that the wh,le counq should be subjected to the operation of such a law. It was a law founded on a principle which no nun had ever before dared to assert—a principle from which every lover pf freedom turned with horror and disgust.. He was persuaded that the present and the other measures twhich he regarded with equal ink nation) were only - parts of that system of attack nu the liberty of the People which had long been unit' mittingly pursued. Those who voted for such ma . sures supported not the Constitution, but the Mini sters ; men who, he had long been persuaded, wisliti to invest themselves' with such arbitrary power a might render them independent of the wishes of the People,. as he .believed they already were of the wishes of that 'House. - Instead of evincing every dis• position to relieve the distresses of the suff;riq classes of the community, the only measures in' posed were the deprivation of the right of meeting to petition for the redress of grievances, the deprier tion of the right of keeping arms, and other dead:• blows to the Constittition. He firmly believed, that had it not been for the events of the 16th of Asps; the People would have continued to bear their die tresses with fortitude. The measures now r eam; mended to the LEgslatnre were, is his opinion, :L. culated to exacerbate itistead of abate the evil. 5 he was wrong in that opinion, he declared that no thing could give him greater pleasure than to €2 , 1 his error—( r, hear, hear). The House than went into the Committee ; and 03 the first chase being read, Mr. BENNET Said, that he looked upon the pn" session of ,arins as being the strongest proof of th e difference between a freeman and a slave. fie cb jected to the notion that arms were allowed to EnE,- lishinert to defend theifproperty only; but to defend their birthright. He still more strongly objected t 3 giving a "single Magistrate the power of searching for arms, upon information given on oath before him; and he thought he was justified in making that 01 `' jection, when they saw how certain Magistrates hzi issued their death warrants . Ile resisted this mea sure, because it must be carried only by force arms, and because he could conceive nothing so hor rible as subjecting the females of a family to the ne •cessary outrage and insult of midnight searches for arms—(Hear, hear, hear). Nothing aroused the hatred of this and other countries more than the do miciliary visits during the French Revolution ; and what woul d be the differe nce between the dOmicili ary visits of that horrid e eriod, and those that would take place under this Bill ? Hear). But.the Biil would be rendered nugatory—for arms would be se creted, and *mild his liijorsq's Ministers inflict to:- tote, in order to extort confession ? hear). That would, probably, be the nest steep, is not the ne- p SL ad he Prot tent ~, ~ 1 ~ • 1 ~ ~ I . .. I*■”P•maiiimmeMNlM 4 I 14,, 1 • • ~+ .1