Star. — London, England, 1818-04-28 00:00:00

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C '7 th I,) • th ti h d si of . • \I ; , 1 4, i 1 , • •,I i f v , i • )4 ., t., - , , ~.• , 41, • Sr • . 9•. .71 .. 4 .16 "'wow • - persun's estate, he tcuilitainlNbt -Called on to pro duce a certified copy of that part of it. Mr. gANlNb.laid , a.few words across the table in %kat vesse,NinsAutinOlaat in a future stage of the Bill he should make some objections to the mode of constituting the Commissioners, and chew that there was no precedent for it. Lord FOLKESTONE was glad that the attention of the House had been drawn to this Bill, froth which he was convinced more advantage would result than had at first been imagined. He wished now only to make a few observations on one cf-the clauses. Tile Universities of Oxford and Cambridge, and Eton School, were to be e.icepted. He was sorry for this, or that there should be any exception in a Bill which was to pass for the purpose of inquiring into abuses in establishments for education. It was, indeed, al most an insult to the establishments he had men tioned, to except them. He should have thought that the Members who represented those Universities would have opposed the exception. It threw on them an imputation that they were mismanaged. He could state that he knew a Gentleman in the country who had been able to discover abuses of a most extraor dinary nature in one institution, and that not one quarter of the money that he had been able to dis cover had been returned in the accounts to the House. He had discovered that the funds of this establish ment were mote by 2,000/. or 3,0001. twenty or thirty years ago, than was accounted for now. Mr. BRAGGE BATHURST agreed that the sub ject was one which required minute attention. But did the House know what the Bill intended to corn prize, and what was the purport of the inquiries? On a former occasion he had asked the Honourable and Learned Gentleman opposite, whether he in tended any thing more by this Bill than an inquiry into the funds for the education, of the Poor ? This seamed the object, but out of it had grown a Bill that had nothing to do with the poor. But were the House to say, that without an abuse being proved in any great institution, such as the Charter House, Harrow, and others, the Commissioners were to de- mand investigation on any private suggestion ? From whom was the information expected to be received, respecting abuses in great foundations, that were to put them into the hands of any Commissioners? Mr. BROUGHAM- thought the Right Hon. Gen tleman did not understand the nature of the Bill, which would be quite open for discussion in its future stage, when opposition might be given to the Speaker's leaving the Chatr. Undoubtedly the measure was for inquiring into abuses of the charities for the edu cation of the poor. Under the word charities it was not deemed necessary to include the Universities, and therefore the proviso was introduced to except them; as it was clear that without this proviso the inquiry would have extended to those establishments. But in the main, he must say he agreed with his Noble Friend, that if there were no abuses, they ought to have no objection to 4e inquiry ; and he thought the real security against abusing their important trusts would be by their coming forward and chal lenging the exception in their favour. He would hold out to them as a precedent the 'name of a vene rable Nobleman, who had afforded a great example, in putting himself in the very front and head of the inquiry into the abuses of the office of the Commis • sioners for executing the duties of Lord High Admi ral. He meant the Earl of St.,Vinccut. This Noble man said he challenged inquiry, and wished them to call for papers and persons, and inquire into every abuse. He knew he had nothing to fear, and that an inquiry into other departments was not less effec tual from his flinging open the doors of the Admi ralty. The effect had been one of the most impor tant changes in the affairs of this country that had ever been produced since the Revolution. It had set an example of exposing and preventing abuses of the public money that had never been well set a going till his naval commission. With respect to the merits of the present Bill, he trusted they would be dis c assed when the passages were filled up in the Com mittee. He would not object to the nomination of the Commissioners coming from Ministers, only loping that incompetent persons, or mere ciphers, w;_uld not be appointed. It had been ascertained that out of 9.0,000/. a year in donations in the county of Berks, for the purposes of education, only 50001. found its way to that object, and the other 15,000/. were entirely unaccounted for till the operation of Mr. Gilbert's Mil, which ha.l only succeeded in get ting a return of 7000/. and but for his inquiries, there would probably not have been ascertained the appli cation of a single pound. This shewed the necessity of the Commissioners making their investigations on the spot, and that they should have the power of cal ling for papers and persons. It had been supposed that great abuses had existed in the management of the Charter House ; but the inquiry that took place two years ago removed much of the prejudice that had previously prevailed, and the more the manage ment of that Institution was investigated, the more reason those who were concerned in it had to be proud tlat the inquiry had taken place. SirJOHN NEWPORT alluded to the great ad vantages that had resulted from the inquiry into the abuses of the Fees of the Courts of Justice in Ire- Lind and Scotland. Objections were made at the time ; and the Cabinet Ministers wished to negative the measures. It was, however, carried by a single vote ; the inquiry had been entered into, and the re sult had been the detection of enormous abuses, and the opening of the Courts of Justice. He mentioned this, to chew how eager the House should be to have inquiries that tended to the benefits of the people. Mr. PEEL admitted that the inquiry alluded to by the Right Hon. Baronet had been productive of the best effects ; but the course of proceeding on that occasion had been by an Address to the Throne ; and in consequence of the Address, the Commis sioners were appointed. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman had said there were surmises against the Charter House, and that by the inquiry every sus picion had been removed. Bat waat analogy was there between this Institution and the Universities ? Did'any nne say that there was any suspicion against those Learned Bodies ? For his own p a rt, he wished the exemption had been made more extensive, and had included Harrow, Rugby, and other well con ducted Charters, against which there was not the smallest suspicion. Mr. B. BATHURST explained, and repeated most of his previous observations. Mr. BROUGHAM, in rcely, adverted to the ia- quire that toot plat• two r un ageoprelative to the e Charter House and Christ's Hospital. Respecting_, the formu ' the charge was, that the funds for the education of the poor had been employed in educa ting the rich. The Chatter House stood on the same footing as Chtht's Hospital. where it was proved, among other abuses, that a Clergyman of 7001. or 8001. a year had a son. They were called on at the Charter House to produce their Deed. They refused, and said...." We have nothing to do with the educa tion of the lower orders." The Committee answered —" Shew us your Charter, and we will tell you whether you have or not." They . did, with some dif ficulty, when the first three lines proved it was for' the education of the lower orders. It was the Com mittee that had reason to complain, rather than the Charter House. The persons who were examined said Do you know who are the Governors of this Institution ? They are the Archbishop of Cante-bury, and such and such Noblemen ; in fact, there is only one single Member; who is not in the House of Peers. The Committee answered—" The reason you have given is exactly that why we call on you ; betanse the Governors you speak of would not answer our sum mons." The result was, that by this inquiry far less abuses were discovered ltaa•were expected. Ater a few words between Sir J. NEWPORT and Mr. B. BATHURST, the House went into the Commit ter, pro forma, the Report was brought up, read, and ordered for further consideration on Thursday next. PETITION FROM ABINGDON. Sir C. SAXTON rose to present a Petition from the Magistrates and other persons of Abingdon, com plaining of their having been accused by a Member of that House, with misapplying the funds of twenty- . five Charities. Mr. BROUGHAM observed, that these Petitioners had heard an imperfect and false statement of what he had said. He had not made any such assertion. He had read a letter from Mr. Parry, which stated that 25 benefactions had not been accounted for to the House, under Mr. Gilbert's Act, and that 10,0001. balance remained in the hands of other persons, but he had not said those persons belonged to Abingdon. Mr. WROTTESLEY was glad to see that but one sentiment prevailed in the 1-louse respecting this necessary measure. There had not been one single memorial returned from Berkshire under Mr. Gil bert's Act • and only twenty-one counties in all Eng- land had made returns. The Petition being read, it stated, that the Magis trates of the Borough of Abingdon complained of misrepresentations in regard to abuses of the funds of their charities; that these were calumnious charges against the town of Abingdon, which they felt tt their duty to repel. They were certain that the cha ritable funds of the town had been properly applied, and they hoped the House would concur in passing a law for a general investigation. Mr. BROUGHAM said, the house would see the impossibility of this Petition lying on the table, for it stated that calumnious misrepresentations had been made in that House, because a false statement had been made in some newspaper. What they had founded their assertions upon was a total misrepre sentation of what had passed, and which the Peti tioners had no right to notice. Mr. BATHURST denied that the Petitioners had said that a calumnious misrepresentation had been made in that House. Mr. BROUGHAM insisted that the statement which he had made was correct, but the account of it on which they had commented was false. ney , said it had been represented to the House, that '25 charities had been abused. There was nothing in the Petition which denied the statement he had made. Mr. C. W. WYNN said, whether the statement were correct or not, the Petitioners had no right to call in question any representation that had been made in that House. He thought the Hon. Baronet had better withdraw the Petition.—The Petition was then withdrawn. BUILDING Or CHLIRCITES. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER mo ved, that the Order of the Day for taking into con sideration the Churches' Bill, should be read. Sir R. PEEL hoped the Right Honourable Gen tleman would consent to the Cotton Bill coming on first, as many persons who were interested in it were now in town; their funds were nearly exhausted, and they were fearful that it would be necessary for them to return into the country before their cause could be heard. Mr. Alderman WOOD rose, but the call from all parts of the House for Sir R. Peel to proceed, made it impossible for him to be heard. The SPEAKER observed, there was a question before the House, which it would be far their con venience first to attend to. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said. he wished the Order of the Day for taking into con sideration the Report of the Churches' Bill to be read, for the purpose of postponing it to that day, but as it was desirable that it should be proceeded with without loss of time, he wished it to be peremptorily fixed for to-morrow. General THORNTON addressed the Chair, but was unable to proceed for the cries df " No, No r that burst from the Members. The Report of the Churches Bill was ordered to be taken Into further consideration to-morrow. COTTON FACTORIES LABOURERS BILL. Sir RGEERT PEEL regretted that the Honour able Gentlemen opposite had neglected to opposethe Bill in the stage when it could have been done with least inconvenience. He, however, had acted to wards those Gentlemen with the utmost fairness, and the House had also departed from a point of form to enable those Gentlemen to resume the dis cussion. About 16 years ago he had been induced, through humane motives, he trusted—(hear)—to in troduce the Cotton Spinners Apprentices Bill, to ob viate the hardships these young persons then laboured under. If his Majesty's Government and the House did not now lend their aid to his attempt, the evil would, and indeed had assumed a new and more alarming feature, and the former benevolent endea vours of the House would be rendered abortive— (hear, hear.) The former Bill had been rendered nugatory by the change which had taken place as to the character of persons now employed in these factories. These factories are now carried on in large towns, where, although ten times the number of chil dren were employed, compared with that period when the Apprentices Bill had passed, none of them were bound by articles, or any thing iu the nature of a permanent contract. Thus the children were not entitled, nor could they rely on the protection hi therto afforded by misters to those in their employ ment. If they met with an accident, or were ill, the masters were not bound to look to or provide for them. The difference between this and the former Hill was therefore material. The former regulating the treatment of apprentices, by the then law entitled tin protection from their masters—this providing for the treatment of those who had no legal, or often no natural protector. Their case was truly distressing, being compelled to endure continued labour for 14 hours a day, an exertion far above their strength, and which a very short time rendered them unfit for any thing in the shape of exertion—(hear, hear.) — The subject had been strongly recommended to the interference of Parliament by numerous Petitions— amongst others, one from the medical gentlemen of Manchester to the amount of thirty ; another from twenty-one of the clergy: several from the spinners themselves, and even from the niastermanufacturers. The sole motive of most of whom, therefore, must lie, a benevolent wish to alleviate their situation.— There had been an allusion made to general princi ples, and it was said to be impolic to interfere with free lab Our by legislative acts. Could this fairly be denominated free labour? or, if it were even consi dered to be such, which he, for one, could never con cede. would not the House feel it to be a duty to vield to the pressing remonstrance of the medical, clerical, and all other respectable classses of society, who had no interested object in wishing its repeal, and had stated the dreadful effects to these little chil dren, and even to adults, resulting from this inces sant application to laborious occupation in strongly heated apartments, and which had been found, in the case of the younger children, to prevent their ar riving at their full growth, or even assuming the ap peaiance of maturity when of full age ? He con cluded by entreating the House would maturely weigh to e merits of the Bill before the House, and support it if it should appear to be calculated to alle viate the hardships and suffering: of these little help less and unprotected victims of our manufacturing prosperity—(hear, hear.) Lord STANLEY regretted he felt it his duty, and a duty he owed to his constituents, amongst whom for the greater part these factories Were carried on, to oppose the present Bill. In Lancashire this oc cupation formed the staple of the country. It had been said this was merely an amendment on the 42d of the. King ; ke could not see how this sprung out of the Apprentices Act, more particularly if, as it had been said, the system of apprenticeship had to tally vanished in these factories. After a consider able body of evidence had been laid before the Com mittee above stairs, and reported to the House, the Honourable Baronet's Bill was introduced ; and the manufacturers were astonished to find their interests had been decided upon without any opportunity being given them to represent their case to the House, or be heard by Counsel at the bar. He could not but object to any interference in free labour— and here it was particularly objectionable, as these children or adults were themselves free labourers, and often the children of free labourers, who were upon the spot to watch over their interests. Another point of consideration was, that it at once militated against the exercise of particular trades without the previous qualificatiisu of apprenticeships. The professed ob ject of this Bill was to interpose between the parent and the child, the master and the juvenile work person, and to hold out to the public that those wlsose. dsey ar.d whose interest dictated affection and care to t"rse about them, were indifferent to the first moral obligations they were bound to consider. The proposed Bill struck directly against that established principle which gave the parent the labour of his child during his minority, so long as lie gave him adequate support. It did this by hxing the mirdnuira of the child's age for labour, and the restriction of his hours of work. The result of such a regulation must inevitably he, that the children would cease to be employed, and their parents would lose the value of their labour, while the children were consigned to unprofitable idleness—(hear, hear.) He would also assert, Without fear of contradiction, that there was nothing in the nature of the cotton trade to make it the subject of peculiar regulation in this manner. It was idle to talk of its unhealthiness as an inducement for legislative interposition. Was it so unhealthy as water-gilding:—as employment in the eless-works. particularly the manufacture of plate-glass?—or as in branches of the weaving trade? And who ever heard of legislative interference in either of these, branches ? The Noble Lord then pointed out that in these trades, which he stated as being far more exceptionable than the cotton trade, the working peeple were exposed to the vicissitudes of excessive heat and cold—to damps of every kind, as in the coal and lead mines, and every species of bodily in-j firmity ; and yet, he repeated, nobody ever called for legislative enactment in the management of these concerns. He would again contend, that this Bill, went to disconnect the parent from the child—the child from the master—and, under the plausible pre-, ter.ce of taking care of the health of the infant race, *eat at once to undermine it, by depriving the indi viduals of the means of procuring adequate comforts, for their mainter.ance, which they were able to do by their unlimited ir.dustry at present. The diminution, of wages attendant upon the proposed alteration would work a far greater evil than it was proposed to cure; and on this subject he diffes - ed from the opi nions of the medical men whose names had been quoted, for they rather relied or. general speculative statements than on particelar facts. He could speak from his own knowledge, as an Officer of the Lanca shire Militia, that he never sais any appearance of this reduced state of health among the cotton factory workmen; on the contrary, he thought that their ad vantages, as compared with other labourers, were conspicuous. His main objection to this Bill Ns - as. that it sanctioned a principle never before recognized in this country, and which, if adopted in this case, must be carried to others, to the injury of a free trade, or what was called a free trade. On the whole, he was so convinced of its ix:Tolley, that he felt it necessary to move, as ar. amendment to the Motion already made—" That this House -do resolve itself into the said Committee this day four months." On the original Question being put, Lord LAM...MILES rose, and said that he could not suffer this question to go to a vote without sta ting his view of • the main points at issue. On ths principle of aac Bill he would ray a kw word., and be agreed in the opidon, that if applied here Eis. admitted in other cases, and, as he thu s the injury of aIL lie was fully aware, ° a subject of this kind, the man who seemed up against what was called a question of h u must• do so at the risk of being immediai down; but this would not deter him fa um tli f ...ion of his sentiments--{//ear, hear /'Hand a question of humaniLy, he cautioned the !lc it proceeded on mere feeling upon such a s; (Hear hear.) If this principle of malt... branch of trade, and affixing the degree o! l ; be employed in it, were to - be sancnoned tire interposition the consequence would b. the general interests of commerce, and 'l ei this particular instance would be, that ail :I ten under sixteen years of age would be th ro , the factories on their parerts, and from t.''.l7 parish, for support —(lfear , hear, dear i) they were retained, the effect of the hours would be, that they obtained an ac: idle time, but not any means of makiaz productive in any respect for themselves. evil appeared to be, the mode of woe(' time. when any of those accidents ha2peas mills, which either occurred from want of water, or from an excess of it. Ore 0: ti - .e able Members for Coventry had said, or. night, that the deterioration of health t ployed in the cotton factories was ress, r .. first glance, in the distorted limbs and -::,et ipearance of the objects. These may be fat as to the state of the individuals, and yet wi general trade being answerable for them; trade be really the cause of such ev ls, ought to be struck at the whole system of and not at a reduction of the hours of w had had some experience in the inquiry fro this measure originated. Had it sprung Honourable Baronet alone (Sir Robert Peep, experience he would pay great deferet,ce. Cher he might be inclined to give the subject a c tention ; but he rather thought it, (in p'rt sprang from another quarter—that it tore of that system of moral education which ted by an individual (Mr. Owen) in the ma! of this branch of trade, who said, that. f:nr experience at Lanark, the reductica in the labour, so far from being injuries to ti produce of the factories, rather t!•aded to : This was a proposition beyond his I Lres L . comprehension. lie was totally uncce.nec any of the parties at issue in this qaestion thought it only fair that an inquiry should! before a Select Committee into t'..e spec vances under which children were said to the cotton factories. This at least shoul, any legislative interference. At preiert wan called on to proceed, without surfires to justify such a cr,nrse, and in the al),.en.: decidcd information which the rase caked tain a just and fair conclusion. Hs had that some part of the system acted upon w but the question was, whether it v.-as lyrea extent that called for legilatire inquiry. i manner as would establish an ins - ere:we the sent, the child, and the master, had disanct rate interests, incompatible with the teal sae others duties and- comforts. lie sear. then cidedly of opinion, that a Committtanp st.i alone gee g adequate information, and that should precede the committal of the Bill is t i In desiring this course, he was only actuate. 1 cere desire to do justice to all parties—(hece Mr. PEEL said, it was unnecessary for Lord to assure the House of the sincerity dour of his views, as these were as manite. his humanity was unquestionable--(Hcar, begged leave, however, before he entere. gfneral quetice., to object to o:-.e or two 0 sioas of the Noble Lord, which had ato impress upon the House a prejudice lgains on the ground that it had the support of man (Mr. Owen) who inculcated certain si opinions on subjects of political econom; was no strength in such an argument—for, only went to this, that a whole subject s merged in the indiscreet views of a particl cate. Against such a doctrine he wolld and maintain, that the question must rest merits, and not on any adventiliols Noble Lord required further dociirr.erts light on the subject, and therefore ctl.-.! r mittee. In answer to this call, he M. I; only say—not that other domment: Tn../ a light on the subject, but had not the H r.; before it enough to establish the necessity ing this Bill—(hear, hear)? Bet F. w - r the merits of this question on the gent in its favour ; he would be c.,:-.!tat to ? ro , cacy, on the statement; of tl:c..c nents, and to their obervations he -Awl confine his comments. From these it was t, a great grievance had sub,isted—a it was most desirable to remove ' if it. coc: without a contravention of public opponents of this me...s.tre may he clisses--one of which was sunsible of tit , of excessive labour upon the constitutior but who were still unwilling to est:.bir of interference, which may be ;:d class denied the grievance any legislative interposition. With respec class, he was at a loss to see how it col?. mined, that a principle applied to a r could be acted upon as a precedent where that evil did not exist. To say was without a precedent was co, fur it was constantly acted on in con:: . x.: , ;ions where peculiar exceptions from ti.e of tradin4 practices called for a parict:t. relid. Now, did the cotton trade Fes.: exception as called for the application medy ? Ile thought it did, and for tin , was carried on in immense buildings, which more than 1000 children were 'lei. 12, 14, and sometimes 15 hours a day---( distinction being made between the child derest age and the most ~•, r cien, or betwe , bet:ile and the strong. The House w..ah it. mind, the frequency of accidents to mills of the factories were subject, and taken for bringing up the .trrear of manuf making the enildren woe k up the lost t excessive application of extra hours on days of work. :added tt; the operation of .. _::11Fire:: 111 : E C I I !, it tying 41 0. to ;at .):, a to st an d 1 ro ds, in 'ltemuit”, a the evil v -ately n. ,,, scion may I ' , egr et ka i se•ru re: . • eve r; .., , t in MAnc. '''itetow emplo: kibiect—. ,jetted to ev ery ou ld Alter ,'3 L....Y1r ..., lid, the t 'Y leg•ira. .gement 4 .: fi ta l to e d it, by s ' it4l : it Lord ST. :he ci.... 1 .;;. free labs tar 7 f rom t h e pares n to ti t Mr. PEE I'S e 'en - . been as . •••.a.l-,r. o f er ase a f ::•....r.... 0 - . o f . 1: to for till ..nt - e Bill ha -- A y r ... • ,. a manuf u? b.: k . ble dig ,t 1 to ti • . y in the 5e , ...:.r. as no tie r fier.tr.. .e strengt a f., r .... :. 'y his pla thcsr Yr... '. . bad s P.:*L - it• .... 0 . rers wer• efiti., •, • . ran were Let. r s r. , . mark :ith3ot :Isv 'tote for ; but if the at fact, t the blew ad not st the ....'; 1 the chill rm.', ..i e , the Par irim v . , : ..., • mask from ere yen from IL, to whew uestion, er, itidec', • tory 37. . closer at. hours. rt :,.: levt,) .• ployed med a pm. • Mr. Sat was projec. • conterm anuzYmtat . °cosi nu Lis era • • 15 hoe it hours o'l hear. .1 rise e•.eral -as to be :;ICtedse ::: as count I..iscelleL*4 sal to a ected wiiit • r). H )r. ; b•_t he at perso l takt pace •ork ; he !cific Oa earn ) labour it i ut was i '.d precee •• meastu the Hose sr. heal )t grords Sandford, .ce of that speech o fur, to ob. return b r.o doul/4 children its wron inanufaci png to the orderly, in such a they did tat the p.i- This sure t an•lreu.t. reflected :ate of•?ich thus affe ref•re, dc- permane t.t : r• catli stated, at this nep tories di t]:e [louse. mast- c rd by ann. to his m ur,le:7r.) most be' • the Noble confined and a h; .y a IS CA D. .elt as tint and be ( leari. Ile ting-ma with be tlhao ti.e of the .:!:-.:- when h endencr t o girl, wl ut the hill, cessant bentunh f a Gen•fe. tor? 1 spoculmiL:e flicted, ny. T!aw this, all r, if true, it child shvid be and rei hal cur Je... - G- -ruperac 1 ir ..',7e::— treated 0:. I'S CTIS oport. ille hijury treatital io ::: 1— . 7 a conside for .. Criiri- !'e..:.l. Y-...... 1 by the he had ! not -Lac .7 attache ace al..ca..y v of ad( i t- •gymer b a d 1 :0..i no. -..-...(t cv..',......e Meng] ••••••,.-it•i .-"-; g uilels 4.• it.: oppt. ild cbi....;.r facts ; and st quite c..:.ir mate I once wh;ch tine 1..1 ..1 ,i iv ~ ,lone kinds c:...i .. .e. The ernpk day— :a:' - .1 ?tis pr s.2ssio ( :•,.. ..: i:.bou rar cl 7 • • :•• ...... :.: v . a ar ; t l. . R ep u 1 ..: the it c...'...er CISC • : t we re ..e yrinc.p.- child c .Tet ;. i ....'. rc ;-s a • . c ....i . : ' : - .1-... s • ••sse 1...: - mode .-. ..a as :::t skirls art .. ..row of t:•*.ic rt . fern .., 0. —IL cow in ni•..sy ...t . eTld !in at w 0 ...(•• s?nt, ts im in g i Cott Cott The e 0 r ( i n R 7 S I . 1% 0 iti l li: f .. : : ; 71 .4n.' : t t. '...letic!',lfltitti:}l:llr,:lb:r..l,!..iAtt 1, d i . C.' .. .. .17b.1:::,....174....: