Star. — London, England, 1802-02-18 00:00:00

PARLMMENTARr PROCEEDINGS. HOUSE OF LORDS, WEDNESDAY, FEB. i 7. °mufti were finally heard relative to the Scisteh Appeal. =tsam, Bart. and others, Higgins, Affignee of the my ErMite, Re. namely, Mr. Row!lly (or the Re fisoodents, and Mr. Adam for the Appellants hi reply—After which their Lordihips deferred their judgment upon the safe SI this day fennight. Lord PILIIAM prefented copies of the various accounts re ferred to In his Majelty's late Menage reipee.n.g the Rate of the Civil Lift, which were ordered to Ikon the 'faille. The various Bills before the Hook were forwarded in their refpedive Rafe.—,After which the Houfe adjourned' till to morrow. HOUSE OP COMMONS. General CASCOT prefeated two Petitions from the Corpo ration of Liverpool, for Bills to widen and improve the Erects, and ereet new Docks there—which were frverally ordered to be referred to a Connuittee to confider the Lime, and report thereon. The Ecl Bill was reds third time and paif.xf. The Southern Whale FlOsa7 Bill was alto Mad a third time and paffed. Mr. AL/LIND/It brought up the Report of the Exchequer Bills Bill—whieh was read and agreed to, and the Bill ordered to be read a third time to-morrow. Mr. Wt toncss prefented a Petition from the Veterinary College, praying the aid of Parliament—iv:deli was ordered to BL on the Table. PETITIONS TOR PRIVATE RILLS. Sir Jonu CA Lid% ND C a raid, that a great nunil,er of Petitions for Private Bills were Rill behind, and were not, from variops casks, likely to arrive within the period limited by the Houk for the reception of Private Petitions. He therefore moved that the time for receiving Petitions for Private Bills thould be =- lamed till Friday fc'nnight. Mr. N. VANE complained of the delay which took tame in bringing up Petitions for Private Bills, and the bind ranee to public bullnefs, which increafed front enlarging the time for their reception. If a &Misr motion was made in the next Sefton of Parliament, he Mould, he Paid, require fume Itrong ratan to be *Mimed before he gave his affent—The mo tion was then put and carried. CIVIL LIST. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHPOSER." Sir, I rife in purfnance of the notice I had the honour of giving the Houfe, to move that the feveral Ac counts which were prefented to the Houfe in obe dience to his Majefty's command, relative to the expenditure of the Civil Lill, be referred to a Selea Committee. If I was to follow the praake ufually adopted upon thefe occafions, 1 thould content myfelf with making the fame fort of motion I made on his Majefty's Me Page, when I merely moved it &mild be referred to a Committee of Supply. But it has occurred to me to be due to the Houfe—to be due to the public—and to be due to his Majefty himfelf, that the circumftances which have occa- Boned fuch an accumulation of debt as appears upon thefe Accounts, timid be fully inveßigated and laid before the Houfe; as, Sir, I am thoroughly convinced, if it lhould be the pleaftne of the Houfe to appoint the Committee, the refult will convince every Member that the caufes which have (vett- Mined this accumulation were in a great degree unavoidable ; and that no fentiment will exilt in the mind of any one Member, as to the debt, but that of regret for the circumftances which have operated HI producing it. It will be recolleded that fixteen years have now elapfed fince the ar rangements and fchedules were i.:ade with refe rence to the various branches of the Civil Lill, to be provided for by Parliament. Let the Houfe recoiled what has been the operation of the nume rous articles of expenditure of which that Civil Lilt is compared. Let Gentlemen advert to their own domethc concerns—let them look to that which mull have affeaed thofe concerns in the courfe of fueh a period, and they will not be at a lots to ac count for a very large portion of that deb!, the particulars of which are fubmitted to the Houfe in the Accounts prefented by order of his Majefty.— Sir, it would be inconfillent with the purpofe for which the Committee is to be appointed, if I was now to enter into an enumeration of the receipts or expenditure of the Civil Lift. All I with is, that the Houfe Ibould go to the inquiry —that it thould go to the Committee without any predi fpofiti on—with out any preconceived opinion with refped to the nature of the debt, or the circumflances which have led to its accumulation. lam defirous of ahftain- ing, at all events, from interrupting in any degree what I unit will be the mode adopted with regard to the Accounts. Under thefe circumflances lam willing, and I think no °Nation can be made on the part of any Member, to defer for the prefent any further obfervations. If the Committeelhould be appointed then, when the report than have been made, and fuch an interval allowed as Gentlemen may defire, I fhould with that it ihould be taken into confideration, and that the difcuffion fhould be as minute and ample, as the importance of the fubjed undoubtedly requires. At prefent I move, athat a Committee be appointed to take into con fideration the feveral Accounts which were prefent ed yefierday by Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, by his Majefiy's command, relating to the expen diture of the Civil Lift; and that the faid Com mittee do examine and report the fame as they may appear to them, together with their obfervations to the Houfe." Mr. THOMAS MANNERS SUTTON...-$ 4 I hope, Sir, it will not be deemed improper in me to (fate to the Houfe a . eircumllance relative to the affairs of his Royal Highnefs the Prince of Wales, which appears to me, in confegnence of what paled in the Houfe yefierday, necelfary to be mentioned. It is probably well known to every Member of this Houk, that the revenues of the Duchy of Corn wall are a part of the revenues of the Crown, till the birth of the eldelt Son of the King and that on the birth of fuch eldeß Son, the title becomes immediately veiled in him as proprietor of the Duchy, with all the rights, immunities, and pri vileges•belonging to the fame. Of courfe tbefe re venues are a fund to be fecured during the mino rity of the Prince of Wales for his benefit. In the prefent insane thefe funds were not fo applied, but they were applied to the ferviceof Government ;Relwere applied in aid of the civil Lift, which ieve been increafed from other (naives if thefe funds had not exilled. Therefore in taking the account, though it might be faid to be a quer tion between his Majefty and the Prince of Wales, yet in fad, and in fubftance and reality, the quer bop ariks between the Prince of Wales and the Public. The Public have received that revenue which will ON PiVerlT gibe rrinco of Walci, if that could be a queaine betufaen his Malta) , and the Prince of Wales, I know his Highnefs would readily content to forego much of his right—he would facrifice any thing to the feelings of Ma jelly on fuch a fubjeft. Sir, it has been my for tune to exprefs the fentiments of his Royal High nets on a former occafion. The Houfe may reit affured, that what I have Rated are the genuine fentiments of the Prince of Wales ; but, Sir, this is certainly not a quellion between hisMajefty and his Royal Highnefs—it is a claim he has on the Public, for that which the Public have received and not accounted for. When I Rate that the Prince of Wales has an undoubted right to the Dukedom of Cornwall, I Rate it not on my own opinion; but I (peak from the concurrent teßimony of many of the moft eminent men in the profeflion of the law . and particularly of one of the moft experienced and learned men at the Bar, I mean Mr. Mansfield, who, in concurrence with another Gentleman of equal celebrity, has given the molt decided opinion in favour of the right. lam aware that fome years ago, when this queflion was likely to be agitated, two very high and diftinguithed perfons exprefred doubts as to the right ; but if the fame Rate of fates had been laid before them, as were laid before the learned Gentleman to whom I have alluded, and my learned Frieod on my left hand, they would not, I am perfitaded, have expreffed any doubt as to the right of the Prince of Wales to the revenue of his own property. The amount of this revenue, from ths year 1762, the period of the birth of the Prince of Wales, to the year 178 t, when his Royal Highnefs came of age, is little fhort of 400,0001. Calculating this fund, with the rate of intereft it would have made, if invelled in Government or Real Security, to the prefent day, it would have amounted upon a fair eftimation to 900,0001. I do not, Sir, mean to Pay, that tome deduaion fhould not he made on account of the expences of the Prince of Wales during his minority—for this I therefore deduct t 2,0001. a year, granted out of the Civil Lift, and 1 6,0001. more provided out of his Majefty's Privy IPurfe. Whether the revenues of the Duchy of ICornwall were applicable to the Prince of Wales as an Eflablifhment for him till the year 1781 or not, yet giving credit for the dedueion and the al lowance by his Majefty, there would Rill remain due to his Highnefs, for the refidue of the revenue of his Duchy, a fum of at leaft between fix and 700,0001. Now, Sir, in the feveral provifions made for the eflablifkment of the Prince of Wales, as Heir Apparent to the Crown, this was never taken into confederation, and I am convinced it never could hove been confidered that any of the Sup plies voted by the Houfe to His Royal Highnefs, were intended as a fatisfaeion in lieu of the reve nue of the Duchy of Cornwall. If I am not in an error, the account will liana thus: In the year 1781, there was a fum of 60,0001. voted to de fray thofe expences which. occur to every one in the outfet of life, and naturally to be expetted with regard to the Heir Apparent. In the year 1787, t he re was a further fum of 160,0001. and zo,OOOL for completin g Carlton Haute. In the year 1795 there was a fum of ao,oool. granted for the purpofe of defraying the expences of the mar riage of his Highnefs with the Princefs Caroline. The whole of this amounts to 260,0001. and with refpeet to thofe items which relate to Carhop Houfe, the money ought not to be confidered as fpent by the.Princ: of Wales, as it was laid out in the completion of a building in which the public has an intereft. This will reduce the font received by his Royal Highnefs to about 240,0001. a fum very fhort of what he is entitled to. I have cer tainly not taken into this calculation the annual income voted by Parliament to the Prince of Wales. It would be very unreafonable, indeed, that the income of his Royal Highnefs fhould be diminifhect, becaufe he happens to be a creditor of 'the Public. If we compare the income granted to the prefent Heir Apparent to the Clown, with that which was allotted by Parliament to his pre decefror, the father of his Majefty, it will be found that reference to the different periods, the amount is nearly the fame. In the year 1742, the turn of too.oool. a year was granted to his Royal Highnefs Frederick, Prince of Wales. He was then only 24 years of age, and it was Rated that an income to filch an extent was not entirely ne ceffary to defray his expences, but to enable him to fupport his rank and dignity. The income to the prefent Prince of Wales was, in the year 1783, 50,0001. In 1787 it was increafed to 60,0001. and in 1795 to 1 toaaool. of which 70,0001. a year was appropriated by Aft of Parliament to the liquida tion of his debts. Every one knows how much his Royal Highnefs has reduced every expence in his eflablifhment. I think, when I Itatewhat has been and is the income of the prefent Prince of Wales, and compare it with what was the income of his Grandfather, Prince Frederic—when I Rate that in the year 1742, too,oool. was not thought too much for thofe necefraries and luxuries which a Prince has a right to expel ; it will not, I am Pure, be conceived by any one, that the income of his Royal Highnefs has been increafed on account of any debt fuppofed to be due to his Highziefs from the Public. I hope, Sir, in making this Itatement, I have not Paid any thing that for a moment may excite an idea his Royal Highnefs has authorifed me to exprefs on his part any &- appointment or diratisfaeion, or that he means to Make the leaft complaint of the proceedings of Parliament with regard to him : on the contrary, I know his Royal Highnefs feels impreffed with gratitud: for the obligations be has to this Houfe. I am perfuaded he is fatisfied that whenever his intereft has been the fulled of deliberation, the Houfe has difcharged its duty to the Public and to himfelf. nave been anxious to Rate thus much, ' that the Houfe and the Public fhould be in full poffeflion of the fa& It is important to the Prince of Wales the public fhould know, that great as are the expences impofed on him by his high rank and illuftrious fituation, they have not fallen heavy on the people of the country, or added to the diftrefs and difficulty of the times. Looking, Sir, to the accounts, and confidering them in the point of view I have fubrnittad them to the Houle, I am convinced it will be found his Royal High ac tli has not received mute than he is cackled tot ' -S bat that a confitlerable balance h due in his fa 'emir, and that he is , the creditor, and not the , debtor of the public. I have been defirons of re moving any wrong , impretlioa which might have been entertained with refpea to that illuftrious perfonage, in whofe honour and welfare every , Member and every well.affeaed man in the king- dom, (a :opera! cry of Hear! Hear!) every indivi dual to whomlhe prefervation of the prefent Go vernment and Conftitution is dear, is fo deeply interefted. I hope my zeal and anxiety with re gard to the Prince, has not been the occafion either of my rnifreprefenting or over.ftating any part of the fubjea. I hope I have laid nothing that has the remoteß tendency either to embarrafs the pre fent Government, or to relied upon the condua of the former. If I have, Ihave done that, which I can affure the Houfe is as much contrary to the deftre of his Royal Highnefs as to my own willies. With refpea to the prefent Government, I have nothing to propofe as applicable to the claims of his Royal Highnefs : I thould be averfe to taking any Rep that might have the effea of deranging any plan his Maietty's Minifters may have adopted; and with regard to the former Government, it would , indeed be painful to me, if in the difeharge of my duty I should be compelled to fay any thing inju- ; rious to my Right Hoe . Friend who has lately quitted the government of the country, and for whofe public and private charaCter I have, in common with every other Member in the HoUfe, the higheß refpea and efteem. As to the rights of the Prince of Wales to the Revenues of the Dukedom of Cornwall, though they unqueftion-,ably ezift, yet I admit it is not the both:refs of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to alert them. If the Houfe (hall think proper at any time further to inveftigate this matter, it will be my duty, as it undoubtedly is my molt anxious with, to afford every alfillance in my power : but the Houfe will forgive me for obferving, that I think a motion upon fuch a fubjea would come with more pro priety from tome Gentleman who is better known , to the Houfe than I have the honour to be. I am perfealy fatisfied, when fuch a motion (hall occur, this Houfe will condo& itfelf with propriety and impartiality in the inveftigation of the jolt claims of the Prince of Wales ; and with that regard and attention which is due to a quellion fo materi ally affeaing the rights of his Royal Highnefs, and the intereft, the juftice, and the honour of the public." Mr. Fox raid, be mould trouble the Houfe with but a very few words upon this fnbjeet, and he thought the Houfe were much obliged to the Hon. and Learned Gentleman who had introduced a part of the fubjelt, for the very clear and very able manner in which he had Rated it ; that is to fay, the claims of his Royal Highnefs the Prince of Wales. He agreed entirely with the Learned Gentleman in almolt every word that had fallen from him upon that fubjea, and every thing which he Rated as connected with it ; and he did moll tin cerely hope the Houle would take up the matter which had been that day opened by that Hon. and Learned Gentleman. He approved highly of the prudence and the wifdom of Rating it in the way which it had been Rated: he agreed with the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, that neither the Houle itfelf, nor any perfon, either in the former Admi niftration, perhaps, nor in the prefent Admini ftration, could be faid to be aridly to blame upon this occafion. He certainly, however, agree& with the Learned Gentleman even in the prudence of not agitating the queftion, whether any perfon was to blame or not. He agreed alto with the Learned Gentleman in his ftatement of the claims of his Royal Highnefs never baring been effectual ly alerted; that they never were effeaually alerted was moll true, but as he had had the honour of Rating more than once his fentiments upon this fubjea, he thought it due from him to the Houfe —he thought it due from him to himfelf, to re peat what he had formerly faid upon that occafion, namely, that it was a fubjeCt well worth the fe rieus attention of-that Houfe. He had reviewed that opinion, and the refult of his lo reviewing it was a confirmation of that opinion : but, becaufe he did moll heartily with to fee the claims of his Royal Highnefs effeaually alerted, or at leall af ferted in a manner more likely to be effeaual, than he could hope to accompl i, he had abftained from making any propofition on that fubjea. He hoped, however, the Hon. and Learned Gentle man would have Tome propofition to Rate; he al: ledged, indeed, it would come with more proprie ty from any other perfon than himfelf; it was that part of the Speech of the Learned Gentleman, and the only part of his Speech from which be differed. Since his Royal Highnefs had confide. ruble claims, be could not help thinking that his Royal Highnefs could not have that fubjea put in a better train or courfe, than that of having it confidered by the Houfe of Commons. As on former occafions, application had been made for the payment of his debts, or the increafe of his income, it was .his opinion there was great hard flip in the cafe of a perfon of Each high rank hav ing his debts Rated in that Houfe; liable, as (itch a statement mutt be, to all the comments which were made on fueh debts, and liable alto to the opinions of that Hoare, which, although correaly formed, yet, under which an opinion had prevail ed with a great part of the public, that the Houfe was granting to his Royal Highnefs tome thing to which he was not entitled, whereas in fag, his Royal Highnefs was entitled to more than was granted. The Learned Gentleman faid, there was no complaint made upon the fubje& by his Royal Higbnefs ; should the Prince be difpofed to complain, Mr. Fox faid there was no individual of whom he had a greater right to complain than of.himfelf (Mr. Fox). In this he alluded to the lag arrangements which were made for the pay ment of the Debts of the Prince of Wales, when 75,000 l was deduited out of tao,oool.per annum for their liquidation. He had concurred in that meafure, although he felt the feverity of it, and he might fay, felt it perhaps more than Tome indi vidnaL might do, as, betides the efteem and re fpea he had for his Royal Hilinefs, as Heir Ap parent to the Throne, he fe lt much regard and affeetion for him, from an early period of his life,' from cirounllanZa which rocurcd him the ho now of the aeqtaintanet of that illuftrions Prince. He thought the 120,00e1. allowed to his Royal Highnefs, by no means too great a pi-evil - ion for a Prince of Wales. The Learned Gentleman Lid, that Frederick Prince of Wales, Grand-father to his Royal Highnefs, in year 1742, had 100,0001. per annum, which, cenfidering the difference of times and the value of money between the two pe riods, Was certainly a greater allowance to the for mer than to his prefent Royal Highnefs; but there was another mode of confidering the income of his Royal Highnefs, and that was, by corn paring it to the increafe of the Civil Lift. Now, D i pp o ?. ing that Isitt,oool. was a liberal allowance—cer tainly not an extravagant allowance, it Mould b e remembered that Thoool. of that (urn was appro priated for the payment of his debts. Upon that ground, he thought the provifion too (mall for the fupport of his Royal Highnefs, and Ibould like to have that fum increafed by the liberality of Parliament. Why then did he concur in the vote for appropriating Thoool. out of 120,0001. for the payment of the debts ? Not becaufe he thought the remaining ftnn fufficient to fupport his Royal Highnefs in his dignity and Rate, but becaufe his Royal Highnefs had previoufly declared that he would be fatisfied with it. He thought it was not confiftent with the honour of that Prince, to take more after that declaration ; but if upon the ac counts now before the Honk, it fhould be found that every argument which was then ufed againft paying the debts of his Royal Highnefs other wife than out of his Income, fuch arguments malt apply as ftrongly, and indeed, more ftrongly to the Civil Lift, he fhould in that cafe feel se difficulty in applying fuch arguments to the Civil Lill, when that fubjed fhould come for- ward for di/car:mi.—Upon the (tieftion itfelf he lhould fay but a few words, time he believed the Houle was difpofed to refer k to a Committee of Supply, and indeed he did not fee how the Houle could well do otherwife ; mere refped to his Majefly, even fuppofing that the objed of it was unfit to be granted, demanded that tooth ; bat this matter demanded a particular inrelliga. Lion, and he was very defirous to be underftood not to convey even a momentary idea that he fhould give a vote in favour of the reque ft contained in thatlleffitge. He fhould at prefent Rate only general principles, which, in his mind, were ex tremely important for the Houfe to attend to was a material circumftance in the hiftory of this Country, that ever fince the Revolution its policy and pmetice had been, on the accelfion of every Prince to the Throne, to grant a Civil Lift for life. He knew throe perfons thought an annual Vote would be better : doubts had been entertained ou this Cubic& by very refpeetable. perfons : he was not then going to argue upon that fubje'l, nor was it neceffary fo to argue. He had conlidered I however, and he had formed an opinion upon it, after as much attention as,he was ever able to give to any fubjeft whatever. The refult of that men• tion was, that he was of opinion our anceftors aped wifely in granting a fum to the Reigning Princes for the Civil Liii for lift, and of courfe be was of opinion we ought to follow that courfe ; but if circumflances which followed the granting of fuels a provifion for life were made a ground for granting a further provifion, it then could not be laid, with propriety, that it was a limited provi. fion for it could not be a limited provifion, if it was liable to alter in its amount by any circuits. fiances whatever. This wog :in opinion which he did not believe he fhould alter, notwithftanding the great refpeetability of thole who entertained a contrary fentiment. If Parliament thought it fell, at the time of granting a Civil Lift, unable to judge what the Civil Lift afterwards ought to be, thatwas a reafon againft voting any permanent fum whatever for fuch Civil Lift ; and the Houfe fbould confider this point, that if thofc circumftances, in- Read of turning out unfavourably to the amount of the Civil Lift, might be on the other fide ; that is, that the Civil Litt might be too ample, there would be no poffible means of reducing fuch a Civil Lift, and therefore it appeared to him to be of the offence of that principle, by which a limited Civil Lift could be guided, that the (um fhould be fixed and certain; and it fhould be taken as a general principle, after fuch Civil Lift was voted, that it fhould be deemed and held fuAlcient for aU the purpofes of a Civil Lift.— The Houfe Mould remember that the principle of limitation goes upon this ground, that the expences fhall be made to fuit the income, not the income to fuit the expences; but by there applications to augment the Civil Lift, all the alterations were made on one fide, that is, the expences were in. created, and therefore the income was ealarged; but fhould eircumflances be ever fo favourable for the redudion of expenditure, there never could be any redudion of the Civil Lift. If the Civil Lift was voted from year to year, among other I difadvantages which would accrue, there would be this—Suppofe that the politics of this country were to take the turn they did in the reign of King Wil liam or Cbieen Anne;—he did not know whether he might not add, the reign, or part of the reign of Geo. the Firft—but he would now confine him. Pelf to the reigns of King William and t een Anne —of King William for enhance , who offen wanted money for the execution of plans, not indeed in their nature adverfe to the interefts of this country, but plans in which this nation was not immediately or neceffarilyconcerned. Suppofe, that for the pin-- pore of carrying on fuch plans, the King had come to the Houfe of Commons , for money, nr, that he wanted an increafe of the Civil Lill—he might have gone either to the Tories or the Whigs to ac• compfilla his purpofe. The queftion, then, would be, which would pay him the mat money, and the one or the other would thus become his favour ite party, as k tranfcended the other in a lava vote of the public wealth. This would be eftablifhing, between two parties, a competition for the Ro) favour, and which was always to be decided in favour of the party who would bellow the moll money—a competition which would be extremely injurious to the Public Weal. It was, therefore, for this, as well as for many other reafons, which he felt the force of, but which he fhould not now endeavour to enumerate—the fyftem of making t I: 7 civil Lift continue for, the life of the reigniq I