Star. — London, England, 1802-12-18 00:00:00

PARLIA MEN? .nnr PROCEEDIA HOUSE OF LORDS, FRIDAY, DEC. t 7. The Royal A ffent was given by Commiffion, to the Malt Tax, the Exchequer Bills, the Annual Indemnity, the Place and Penton Duty, the Ira hlllitia, and the Small Notes BillF, and alfo two Privat , ! Dills. The Lords Commiffionera were, the Lord Chancellor, Lord Pelham, and Lord Walfingham. Counfel were heard at confiderable length relative to the Scotch Apird, Alexander Irving, Efq. of Newton, and others, • .1% Margaret Rollo otherwife Honften, namely, Mr. Alexander and the I-ton. Mr. J. Abercrombie, on the part of the Appellants, and Merril. Adam and Romilly, on behalf of the Refpondent, after which Mr. Alexander was heard in reply. The Loa D CHANCELLOR then rofc, and after ftating his opi nion generally with ri.fpetft to certain points in the cafe, fuggeft ed that its turther eon fi deration fhould be deferred till Thurfday; and having moved to that effedl, it was ordered accordingly. Counfel in the caufe, Lord Kinnard v. Alatthewfon was further pottponed. The various Bills before the Houfe were forwarded in their refpecllive Rages. Mr. ALEXA NDER,aceomranied by feveral Members,brought up from the Commons, the Tranfport Bills Payment Bill, and the Dublin Baking Trade Bill. Two Private Bills were alfo brought up—one by General GAs.CorNE, and the ether by Mr. AN NEELtY,WhiCh, with the two Bills above mentioned were feverally read a firft time. Some routine htifinefs was then difpofed of, after which their Lordildps adjourned till Monday. HOUSE OF COMMONS The S FLAX XR took the Chair at three o'clock. A Meffage was brought from the Lords, defiring the at tendance of the Commons at the Bar of that Houfe, in order to bear the Royal Affent declared by Conuniffion to feveral Bills. Mr. SPZACER, attended by feveral Members, went up forth with, and (hardy after returned and acquainte d Houfe that t:te Royal Affent had been given to the Small Note Bill, Ira Militia Bill. Malt Duty Bill. Penton Tax Bill, Qualification Indemnity Bill, and Exchequer Bills Bill. Reported, the Woollen Manufaeture Amendment and the Corn intercourfe Bill.—Ordered to be engroffed. The Houfe in a Committee upon Expiring laws.—Ordered to report to-morrow. The Houfc in a Committee upon the Ira Militia Law In demnity Bill. Mr. Corry moved feveral amendments ' which were agreed to. The Committee having gone through the Bill, Mr. Corry moved that it be printed, in order, as he Paid, that Condones might have it in their hands, with full tune and opportunity to confider it maturely during the recefs, it being his purple after that period to move, that it be taken into further Ation on Friday the i ith of February, when it might receive the ad vantage of filch further improvements as might occur to Gen tlemen's minds in the interim. Read a fecond time the Bill to coma a miftake in the frith Militia Pay and Cloathing Bill of the loft year. Committed forthwith, reported, and ordered to be read the third time to morrow. Mr. CALCRAPT gate notice of his intention to bring in a Dill for the batter regulation of the Coal Trade. AMERICAN LOYALISTS. Mr. TISRNEY prefented a Petition from certain American Loyalitts, figned by George Martin, and others, which for the prefent, he (I:mild only move, that it be ordered to lie on the Table ; with a view, however, at a future day, to move for its reference to a Committee, when he fhould go at large into the merits of the Petitioners' claim ; which he trulled would appear to the Houfe, and particu larly to a Right Hon. Gentleman at the head of the Treafury, to be founded on the juileft title to the benevolent confideration of that Houfe. He was aware it could be of no effed, unlefs it came re commended by the Crown : but he trufled that a due confideration of its merits would obtain for it that recommendation. The CNANCILLOI of the Examen& faid, he fhould not for the prefent . give any oppofition to the reception of the Petit ion. Stipulating, how ever, that this eircumaance should not be confider ed as binding him to any opinion on the fubjed at a future day ; or to the line of conduft he might thing fit to . adopt, in confequence of the Report of any Committee on this fubjea. CONVICTS. The ATTOILIIIY Gam IRAL moved the Order of the Day for the third reading of the Convias Tranf portation Bill. Sir Cm-mesas &INBUILT Tore, and after paying his tribute of applaufe to the condua of his Maki . - ty's Government, during the late and long arduous war, and the aufpicious and flourifhing circum fiances in which this country has appeared fence the reftoration of peace, exprelled his fincere hope, that now their minds were relieved from the arduous and extended concerns of war, they would turn their attention towards fome amelioration of that fyltem of jurifprudence, which applied to the im prifonment of thofe whom the Law configns to the cuftody of jails, and to Convias fentencedlo trout portation, and other *laments- The number of thofe Convias which conftandy crowded the pub. lic jails, particularly in luxurious and overgrown Cities, was a great and crying evil, if not a dan gerous nuifance • and one that, fo far. from cor reaing the morals of thofe to whom fuch punifh. meats were applied, rather exaggerated their dif pofitions to vice and depravity ; betides, owing to the want of more frequent tranfportation of chore Convias. an enormous expence was entailed upon the community for their fupport in idlenefs. Honfe would no doubt be furprifed, that notwithr (landing the Seffion fo recently terminated at the Old Bailey, a Sellion falfely called for " General Gaol Delivery," no Ws than 729 prifoners re mitted in Newgate, including Debtors, of which number 512 were for felonies and fines. Con trolling this with the Rate of that Prifon in the year 1779, when vifited by the late benevolent . Mr. Howard, and when the number of Convias was not above 149, the necellity of fome reform was too obvious for comment. Not only the long confinement of many men in a clbfe prifon toge ther mutt be liable to produce infelhous difeafes amongft them, but their morals becanie infinitely more vitiated than ever. Thofe who were mere novices in guilt—convias for their fira crimes, and thofe, perhaps, very trivial ones—became, among fuch alTociates, hardened adepts in every fpecies of criminality that could portend danger to fociety. Thofe who, before conviftion, were xettraincd within come bounds, the moment that their hopes of efeape were fruftratcd by that event, became utterly unruly and incorrigible. If they equally health at the, plation of Government to build another Prifon fey the reception of Debtors, and leave the whole of the Gaol of Newgate for Criminals ; or whether it was in contemplation to carry into effeet the laudable objet t propofed by the late Mr. Howard, by building Penitentiaries, and endeavouring at once to referm the morals of the convict, and ren der his labour contributary to his maintenance, he knew not ; but certain he was, Tome fpeedy and effeaual reform was neceirary in that part of the jurifprudence of the country, applicable to crimi• oafs after conviction. Alderman Sir Wr.s. ANDrRSON fully coincided in this idea, and recommended ftrcmgly the con fideration of this fubjeet to his Majefty's Miniflers. There had been, he raid, no lefs than 349 Conviets in Newgate for a confiderable time pail, under fentence of tranfportation ; fome of them above two years : that the expence of fupporting thefe Criminals fell heavily on the City of London, the charge for bread alone being 30001. a year. He thought that either a claufe Mould be introduced into this Bill, or another Bill for the purpofe brought forward to limit the period between con vilion and tranfportation to two months, by which means the purpofes of the Law would be carried fpeedily into effect ; the expence of maintaining thofe men in idlenefs greatly obviated ; and much of that mifchief to their morals, which often tin rendered them for ever irreclaimable, prevented. Mr. R. THORNTON and Doctor LAWRENCE per fedly coincided in the remarks of the two prece ding fpeakers. The ATTORNEY GENERAL obferved, that the rubjeet, as refpeeting the difpnfal of Criminals after conviction, was one which required the moll mature deliberation ; and which would be confi dered, in every humane mind, with the utmoft caution. The prefent Bill went to meet the evil complained of, with as much promptitude as poll fible, under exiting circuratances, and though it did not go fo far as to limit the period for tranf porting Felons after their conviction, according to the fuggellion of the worthy Alderman, yet it went to facilitate and render more frequent that tranfportation, in a degree nearly adequate to the purpofe he fuggefted. But whatever plans Gen tlemen might have in contemplation, for the re form of our jurifprudence on this head, be hoped they would not, in the prefent crifis, attempt to clog or impede the prefent Bill in its laft Rage, and upon the very eve of a long recefs, by any motion which might prevent its palling into law with that promptitude fo very deferable, and which motion might as well be made the fubjed of ano ther Bill, at fome future and fitter opportunity. The Bill was read the third time, paired, and or dered to the Lords. were fent on bOard the Hulks, the evil was equallj' great, with Rill worfe circumßancei to the health of thofe unfortunate men, who, after working all day in the open air, c were crowded together at night in , - and noifome limits of the bolds of ,•,' • ' . liy• more frequently • £BUSVS IN THN NAVY. Captain MAL K HAM moved the Order of the Day, for the further confideration of the Bill for en abling the Admiralty to appoint Commiffioners to enquire into the abufes in the Navy Service. Mr. CANNING rote, not, he faid, to oppofe the Motion, but to offer a few obfervations in confe quence of what had fallen from an Hon. Member yefterday, in the difcuffion which took place on this fubjeEt.. He defired firft to aik the Hon. Member, if it was his with to pufh the Bill with fo much rapidity through its remaining Rages, after its coming out of a Committee, fo altered and amended from its original form as to be no longer the fame, but in fa& a new Bill, which ought to be confidered now as in its firft Rage. He hoped, if fuch was the intention of the Hon. Member who fuperintended its progrefs, the Houfe at lealt . would paufe, and deliberate, before they finally paired a till, fuch as this ; which would go to ered a tribunal in this Country unknown to the Conftitution, anomalous, dangerous, and without precedent ; or at leaft if not wholly without pre cedent, certainly of a nature moft extraordinary. He had . every Tepee for the high charalers of thofe to whom the propofed powers were to be entrufted, but neverthelefs when be reflected on the extraordinary nature of thefe powers, he mill ed the Houfe would paufe, and confider well, whe ther there be not already any competent jurifdic tion, under the eftablithed laws and contlitution, to meet the evil propofed to be remedied by this Bill. That the evil ought to be remedied, he moft readily agreed ; and fhould not (wore any mea• Cure that fhould be proved neceffary for the pur pole. But though not a very old Member of Parliament, he thought a Committee of that Houfe was the moft competent and conflitutional power, for enquiry into the circumftances which this Bill purported to corred ; and he trufted the Houfe would not refign its own powers, in this inftanee, or confign them to the hands of indivi duals, who might ufe them for the molt arbitrary purpofes. Before he could give his affent to fuch a meafure, fuch a cafe malt be made out as to convince him of its abfolute neceffity ; bin he was ftrongly averfe to the precipitation of a meafure through the Houfe, with a degree of fpeed not in his mind neceffary. The Patent of the Board of Admiralty, laid yellerday on the table, appeared to him to give that Board the fulleft powers of controul, which could be neceffary, over all the Boards and Departments of the Navy, fubordinati to their authority ; and a Committee of the Houfe of Commons could always 'apply every defect of that authority, which circumftances might re quire. There was one principle alfo, in which the Bill appeared defedive. Anxious as the Board of Admiralty was, to be armed with extraordinary powers for the correCtion of abufes in fubordinate departments, it did not appear that this Bill gave any authority to the Commillioners appointed by it to controul .the Admiralty Board itfelf. He would allow that that Board had nothing to do with the adminiftration of public money, which belonged to inferior Boards, and in which, cer tainly, fpeculations were the moft likely to obtain; but, neverthelefs, the condo& of the Board itfelf thould not be placed above that inveftigation and controul they were to defirous of inftituting over other departments. But whatever might be the neceffity, or the merits of this Bill, his leading with was, that it fhould not be precipitated; but that coming out of the Committee, with all its in* ov !lent ill L. e .oul. 'Veit to the Was' dietnot think it was alking too niudh, to re-1 quire that 'the final proceedings, upon a Bill of Inch extraordinary importance, might be ,deferred till after the recefs. The only objedion he had heard to this was, th4t the Houfe was preffed in point of time. The Friends of the Bill then fhould have brought it forward fooner, for it was ridicu lous to argue, that becaufe they hid pofiponed it to the 'aft moment. before the recefs, that it mutt therefore pafs without due deliberation. Befides, it was a Bill which empowered the Comrniffioners to overhaul abufes in the Navy for perhaps twenty years back If thole abufes were fuffered to exult fo long, without enquiry or controul, where could be the mighty injury of deferring enquiry fix weeks longer ? Or would any man maintain fuch a fup pofition, as that thofe men, at whole crimes or mifcondud this Bill pointed, would, while fuch a Bill was hanging over their heads; venture to per fift in their mirconduel, and incur new dangers of puttiflinient ? At leall, he hoped time would be given to confider the Bill early in the next week. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER obferved, that the Hon. Member, in themanner he oppofed this Bill, appeared entirely to millake its tendency; ! for had he exerted his ufual vigilance and powers of difcrimination, he mutt know, that he would have been unrounded in afferting that the Bill con- 1 veyed anomalous, unprecedented, and unconlti- i tutional power. Had he confulted the Journals of that Houfe, or at all adverted co circumftances i notorious to every man converfant with Parlia-1 mentary Proceedings for t 8 years paft, he would have found every year in that period, Bills had palled that Houle conveying powers equally ftrong to the Commillioners for auditing Public Ac counts ; and in the years 1780, and 1785, powers much ftronger, as had been mentioned by an Hon. Relation of his on a former night, (Mr. Hiley Addington, Taft Wednefday) when this fubjed was in difcuffion. The Right Hon. Gentleman' had laid the Bill fhould not be hurried. He had never (hewn a difpofition to hurry the Bill for- I ward ; but that thofe abufes did exift, to corred which, and fpeedily, the Bill was intended, was a fad notorious to every man. The Right Hon. Gentleman argued, that no great mifehief could accrue from a delay of fix weeks, becaufe the very idea of the Bill in progrefs would deter peculation. He could, however, tell the Right Hon. Gentle man, that the abufes were going on even to the prefent moment, regardlefs of the Bill; and.that the extent would be enormous, if not immediately checked by the powers which this Bill would con ftitute. The Right Hon. Gentleman had laid, this Bill was to ere( a new, unconftitutional, and unprecedented tribunal in the country. Whereas the fad was, it ereaed no tribunal at all, but merely a Board of Enquiry, with efficient powers to render that enquiry uteful, and not a tribunal with powers to punilh. Goo forbid ! The Com miffsoners were to have power to do nothing, but merely to enquire into frauds, mifcondua, and abufes; and to report their proceedings. Upon, their report it would be for the Houfe of Com mons to ground filch proceedings as to its wifdom fhould feem fit. To fuch an enquiry as this Bill propofed, the late Adminiftration had pledged themfelves, the moment it could be entered upon without injury to .the public fervice. During the war it was not pradicable, without rifle of fuch injury. His Majefty's late Minifters, therefore, deferved praife for deferring the enquiry until the concrufion of the war ; and his Majefty's prefent fervants, in following it up, only fulfilled the duty to which their predeceffors were pledged. In, granting fimilar efficient powers to the Commif !loners of Accounts, and Rill fironger powers in 1780 and 1785, it was not then argued that the Houfe of Commons had compromifed its dignity ; on the contrary, the neceffity was acknowledged, and the meafure admitted on all fides. The Right Hon. Gentleman had let fall, in his fpeech, ano ther fuggeftion, at which he could not help ex preffing leis aftonifhment how fuch an opinion should have found place in his mind. He had Paid, that while the Board of Admiralty claimed the powers conveyed by this Bill, for the purpofe of controuling others, they themfelves were to be above controul, 'and not lubjed to any inveftiga tion of their own proceedings: fuch a fuggeftion he mutt confider as at once an infult to the Houfe of Commons, and to the Noble Lord at the head of the Admiralty department, who had folicited this Bill as the belt and only means of deteding fraud, and preventing abufes. Was it to be im puted to the Houfe of Commons, that dire&ing inveftigation and controul to the condud of one let of men, they withed to exempt another let, in the fame department, from all inveftigation and controul whatever ? Was it to be imputed to the li Noble Lord at the head of the Admiralty, and the other high Characters who compofed that Board, that they folicited powers to inveftigate and controul the condua of others, whillt they them (elves would with to fhrink from inveftigation ? Such an idea was beneath even their (corn. But on the very contrary, the identical reafon why he could not gratify his finccre willies, by inferring the name of that Noble Lord amongft the num ber of Comrniffioners appointed by the Bill, was, that the Board at which he prefided was to be fubjea to the invelligation and controul of thofe Commtffioners, when any colour of fulpicion at tached to their proceedings. The Bill alto gave the Admiralty Board a new and necelfary controul• which they had not before poffeffed, namely, a controul over the condo& of Prize Agents ; and, upon the whole, the Bill itfelf was of a nature and tendency fo prang for the advantage of the pub lic fervice, that he fincerely hoped the Houfe would not confent to a delay wholly unneceffary ; but that the Bill might be read the third time to morrow, fo as to facilitate its paffing into a law before the recefs. Mr. CANNING explained. Admiral &IMLAY Paid he did not with to de lay the Bill, but only that the Houle (bould con fider ferioully the ads of thole who had committed Co many blunders. The tHANCILLOR of the Excusnir sa explained. Lord Ts is NIB contended that this Bill contained greater powers than that of 1780, or the one of lead hi.., read the o n f il th nc e e E th x c e E o s of th e t att T em he pt c ed H A t ti o c h a e r, L e: R e Star Chamber. claufe in the Ad of 1785, which veil the then powers in Commiffioners, and filmed clean.. that they were more extenfive than thole propofed to be given by zhe prefent Mr. Srutto xis admitted that the precedent of 1785 would juflify the prefent Bi11, but it might, without any inconvenicace b e t h ought poponed till aftcr the recefs. The ATTORNEY GENERAL thought this was not the "Rage for there obfervations ; when the Bill had gone through a Committee, they might be fairly urged. He was glad to fi n d the Noble Lord (Temple) who has entered into a new career of oppofition, fo zealous in watching the condud ()f Miniflers in granting extraordinary powers; but furprifed that he fhould object to Government in. flituting an enquiry into abufes ; and that he fhould endeavour to raife the jealoufy of the public againft them on that account. When he had gained more experience, he doubted not but he would change his mode of attack. Dr. LAWRENCE faid, there was hardly a core. mercial houfe in the city that might not be e f b . d u j to the hardfhips of this Bill, in confequeoce of th e power which Commiffioners would have of p ut , ting interrogatories to all perfons who had en. tered into contrails for the fervice of the Navy. He wiflied to know, whether a Committee of the Houle of Commons might not enquire into the alledged abufes, as well as the five Commiffiuners named in the Bill ? The Houfe had, on former occafions, appointed Secret Committees, to en. quire into various abufes. Above all things, he objedled to the power which this Bill would give, to put quellions to perfons that might criminate or degrade themfelves. It was now a maxim in our Courts of Law, that a witnefs fhould not be bound to anfwer a quettion, if the anfwer tended to de grade him. He faw no reafon, therefore, why the Bill might not be poßponed till after the re. refs. No inconvenience could arife from fuch a delay. It was neceffary that Gentlemen fhould have time to confider of a rneafure fo (bong in its power, and fo vexatious in its operation, as the prefent ' • and until he faw fomething to conv i nce him of the neceflity of its palling fo rapidly into a law, he would oppofe it. Mr. WARD faid, if this Bill was put off for fo long a time as was propofed, many perfons who were intended to be the objets of it would have an 'opportunity of withdrawing themfelves from jullice. Wtth refpeet to the powers given to Com. miffioners, they were not greater than thofe with which certain Commiflioners fent to the Weft. Indies, were laft year invcfled. The Bill was then recommitted, and on the motion of Mr. ADDINGTON, the name of HENRY NICH OLLS, Efq. was fubflituted in the room of H. HUNTER, Efq. A converfation, which lathed three hours, af terwards took place on various claufes in the Bill ; after which the Report was received and agreed to ; and the Bill was ordered to be read a third time to-morrow. On the Q2ehion for agreeing to the Report, Lord TEMPLE faid, the amendments introduced into the Bill were fo various that he could not un derhand them ; and, therefore, he wished that the Bill might be re-printed, and the Report deferred till to-morrow. The ATTORNEY GENERAL obferved, that the Noble Lord mutt have had a very ilrange under deritanding of the Bill in its prefent itage, or he mutt have been very inattentive to what had pia paired in the Committee ; for if the Noble Lord had exercifed either his attention or his memory, he muff have underftood that not a fingle Claufe in the Bill was altered ; that the few amendments which had been made, were of the molt trifling nature ; and that the only amendment worthy of notice, was the infertion of the word 66 lawful" into the Bill.—Adjourned till this day. LONDON. SATURDAY, DECEMBER xB. PRICE OF STOCKS THIS DAY ATONE. O'CLOCK; - - 3 per Cent. Conf. for opg. 731 74. 3 per Cent. Red. 721-omnium 21 diC PRICE OF STOCKS YESTERDAY: Bank Stock 1861 I Imp. 3 per C..7off 3 per Cant. Red. 7 1 i Imp. Ann. tit -4 per Cent. 1777 801. 87 I 1621 .5 per Cent. 9911- f per C. Anu. lo2li Long Ann. 20} 9-16 0 E LC i t u q m . Bi lls India Stock 217 Conf. for acc. 731 723 73 The KING (lightly fprairied his leg on Tuefday on mounting his bode, which preuented His Me• JESTY from riding on Wednefday, but we are hap py to (late, that he had perie&ly recovered from the effects of the accident on Thurfday. There was a report yefierday at 'Change that Mr. PITT was dead. There is no foundation for it. On the contrary, we are happy to (late, that, by letters from that Gentleman received this morning, we find his health has confiderably improved. Yefterday the Malta Intercourle Bill paired through the Committee. It is renewed for a year from the i fl January. Mr. Roi.t.ts-rom, of the Foreign Department , has fucceedeLl to the appointment of Writer of the London Gazette, in the room of the late Mr. FRASER, many years one of His Majeliy's Under Secretaries of State in that Department. We learn from Bombay, that Capt. BYNE, Pay mafter of the 86th Regiment, who was convkled of having attmded Lieut. BELLASIS in an atiair of honour with Mr. Mt rcm E Lt. of that place, has re ceived his Majelly's molt gracious pardon. FASHIONABLES.—The Countefsof CLARE is ar rived . in town. The Duke and Duchtfs of Sr. ALBAN'S are gone to Sir GILBERT lIFATIICOTE'S in Lincolnlhire. The Marquis of LANSDOWN i; .gone to Bath- Lord and Lady Sunr.Ev are gone for the holidays to the country. Earl and Conn. tefs of TANKAKVILLk are arrived at Brighton. The Earl and Countefs of TALB OT are dill in _town, and not at Bath l is reported is mai papers. Uw' his fall et V