Star. — London, England, 1824-02-20 00:00:00

~;- . .------ titan that disclosure; but he did think, that as the Bank had no longer the ,advantage of the Restriction Acts in its favour, it would be hardly fair to call for them unless strong reasons were shewn for havieg re course to such a proceeding. He did not mean to slizestintakefolicy- of the law which .requ ired allaL the • lien - Won - 1 of the taTaneesTiMeliTtlidS - ortife' Urn Mull be diminlshed; it was no -dotibt a very proper measure, add the Bank had-eery caddy acquiesced in the ar-. rangemeot. He did not know what were the grounds on which the Honourable Member rested his indiaidual opinion on the effect of the Act of 1808, in concluding the question a's to the agreement with the Bank ol'Eng land respecting the management of the Public Debt ; but, for his own part, be thought the Bank had pro ceeded on solid grounds in claiming an adherence to the contract made with them in Mr. Perceval's time, and be did not think that that. contract could now be fairly called in question or rescinded.. It would be.re c\allected by the House, that some time ago a compro mise was very fairly assented to on the part of the Bant af England, when it was contended that the agieement which then subsisted ought only to be in• sisted on as .applying to that part of the debt which lad been contracted when that . agreement' was made, and that as a very great addition had been subsequently made to the amount of the debt, the new debt ought to be subject to anew arrangement. The Batik assented to the terms then proposed ; and as long as the Charter of the Bank lasted, tht agreement %heti made u ith them Ought fo'be binding on the Public. The Bank, it should be remembered, had rendered essential and important teivices to the country, urid, the House ought not, diete r*, to strain points too forcibly against them. • Mrs fitIME said the question which had been raised by his Honourable Friend was'a most important one to the PUblic. He thought it a duty incumbent on the Government to get rid as soon as possible of the tram ' mete of the Bank of England. Their claim upon the , Public ought to be discharged at once. He could not but: - consider the tyi iig up of I 5,060, 1 0001. of their capital in advances to, the Government, and confining the re.. maunder chiefly to the landed interests, .as contrary to the spirit of the Act by which they were incorporated ; according to which they ought at all times to be ready tat acct mmodate the fair, demands of all branches of the .coinineice of the country, in the way of "discounts.— Their doing so was the plea that was urged in support of theallowances made to them for the management of the .public business. He hoped that Ministers would take the earliest opporttinity of paying off the Govern- Meat debt to the Bank, and then the Country Gentle ._ roma would find no difficulty in getting such advances WI shey...stand in need of at so low a rate as two per cent.. the Right Honottiable Gentleman (the Chan cellor of Eichequet) •had stated, that the bargain already made with the Bank ought not to be broken, utileis. a stronger case were made out. He agreed with • the Right HonOurable dentleman, that it ought not.. Am how did they stand with respect to that matter?— The original bargain took plaCe in 1800, and was looked upon in like manner as an agreement which was not to be broken, and it continued to be observed until the Bill of 1808, which was brought in by Mr. Percival. The preamble to that Bill set forth that, " Whereas the amount of the public debt since the passing of the said Act (of 1800) had very much increased, it was there fore ieasoseable that a new rate should be made of pay ment to the Bank cf England for ti management of that increase;" and accordingly that Bill passed into the law under which the present rate was fixed. Since the passing uf the ,Act of 1808, the public debt had been increased•from six to eight, being nearly one-third. OA the same principle the: efore on which the bargain of 1800 had been altered in 1808, a case was now Clearly made out for a new arrangement of the terms on which the debt ought now to be managed by the Bank, whereby a yearly saving of at least 1150,000 might be made for the Public. • Sir H. PARNELL said, that as the Charter of the ,Birk of England was shortly about to expire, it was reasonable that the House should make its renewal a sultieccof grave consideration. - For his part he saw no necessity, as far as the great interests of the country rereeoncerned, for any renewal of that Charter ; and hp trtuteit when the proper time for discussion came that the House would be found to agree with him. Hi threw out these observations in order that the House • might not be taken by surprise when the period of T 6 .1 iewal came. It was his opinion that the trade of the a itk of England. like that of every other commercial dy s ought to be free ; and he did not think the Right iourible Gentlenian had made out any case to jus tify its eieiiption from the general rule. Mr. MANNING observed'that he did not rise for the purpose of opposing the motion of the Honourable Gen- tleman. He could_ have no objection to the production of any accounts relating to the Public balance in the li4tids of the Bank. He was not prepared, however, to epeet his Honourable Friend's wishes with reference to thestroductiOn of the amount of notes issued. He had so frevently expressed his opinion sipon this subject be fore, that he was afraid of trespassing upon the patience Of the House by again alluding to it—(hear, hear)..— . "this honourable Friend insisted upon the production • of the amount of notes in circulation, he might with the itaime propriety call for the amount of . discounts ef- Joeted by the Bank, and for the names of those With shown those discounts had been effected, dins exposing the private transactions of individuals. That such a measure Would be highly objectionable and injurious in a commercial country, he (Mr. Manning) need not press upon the attention of the House: in fact, if the principle of his Honourable Friend were once admitted, there ' would be no knowing where to stop. With respect to the charge made by.the Bank. for the management of the public money, and which he was astonished to hear his Honourable Friend describe as so exorbitant, he (nr. Manning) could . assure the 'ilou , ,v that, including the payment of clerks and other necessary expenses, it did not exceed seven-pence per cent. on the amount of every £lOO Stock. Another charge which the HO , rourable. Member for Aberdeen had brought against the Bank wa s, that they had lent money on tiro tgage to' the Country Gentlemen. If that Honourable Gentle man would refer to their Charter, and to the Act of King Willittn, he would find that the Bank of England rata ehatbviered. to purchase lands, and requited to lend money on landed security. And surely, in the recent stateof tdistrosi id/tibia the 'agricultural interests of the. country were reduced; it could hardly be charged upon the Bank of Eugland.as a crime that they had lent their assistance to so'consideiable a body of their lel -10,4..7-subjects—(Hear, kept).- . Mt. LLLICE.fuIIy agreed with his Honourable Friend .thelviember for Aberdeen, that Government ought to pity off dui advalicevof the Bank, it order toenkble it to lead await' to the Public at a cheaper tate in come- 7 77-7-- , quence. But he alsetagreed with the gollnurahle Nroyer,l that the Bank ought to produce an account of" tlYel Mount of noted issued' bythena. If . the Bank of Eng land were indeed like that of Scotland, a chartered body, actin'g in competition with others, it would then be unfair to call upon it for the amount of its Bank— notes. But.the case of the Bank of England was a spe- CIA alie ;if leas differently situated from all, other banking or commercial bodies. It had no rival esta blishment to.contend with, and.it had already detived considerable advantage from its bargains with the Pub lic, and it was right thaoit should in future be under its controul. The Bank had been originally instituted in order to assist the trading interests of the country ; but when had it been known to lend its capital for the ad vantage of trade, or at least that portion of the trading interest which most needed its assistance ?—he meant the' , small merchants. It occasionally assisted ,the great ca. pitalists, to be sure, but they were little affected by the rate of discount, as they were always sure, if they went into the market, to procure money at a fair rate. The discount charged by the Bank was, however, far above the ordinary rate ; for eiample, within the last ten days, when the discount was only two and a half per cent. the Bank charged three or four per cent. Thus, if any cus tomer of the Bank was pressed for money, he was obliged to allow them four per cent. because they had chosen so to fix the discount. If the Bank were a real banking concern, conducted upon the fair principles which ought to regulate such an establishment, they would not be found lending their money to the Landed Proprietor and the Government, but to the great, Mer cantile Body of the nation. Let the accounts of the Bank be, however, inspected at the present moment, and theie would not be, found, he would undertake to say, half a million in the bills of mercantile men; Or if such bills were to be found, he would also venture to say, they were the worst bills in the country. He (Mr. Ellice) was astonished at the objection which had been made to the production of the return of the amount of Bank-notes in circulation. Was it not necessary that the country, which depended in a great measure on the Bank, should know that amount; Suppose a case. of distress should arise, what was the Bank to do but td sell Exchequer Bills, or to call on Government to repay them the money it had lent? The Honourable Director ,(Mr. Manning) had said, that if you called for the amount of notes, you might with equal reason call for that of discounts. And why not, he would ask ? Did not the Bank of France annually produce to the public an account, not only of the amount of its discounts, but also of its bullion and, profits—(Hear, hear). And was the credit of that Bank affected by such a_proce dure? Did not, in fact, the Credit of that Bank stand lust as high as that of the Bank of England.? If the Bankracted upon truly commercial.princtples, it woull ,be a different thing. From all that he (Mr. Ellice) h teen, however, he trusted the. Bank would newer be macle independent of the Public ; and When ,the ques tion of the renewal of its Charter came to be agitated, he hoped the House would see the uecessity of render ihg.it still more dependent. He was, he confessed,atot a little astonished at the tone in which the Right Ho nourable Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had advised the House not to strain points against the Bank. Surely the Bank had derived enough from the Public to render it independent of their commisera tion. nous yyr to year their profits had been accu mulating, and the Bank Stock, which, at no distant pe-• rind, sold for 150, was now at 228 and upwards. Under those circumstances he thought the Bank could hardly' accuse the Public of want of liberality or fair dealing. Now, with respect to another subject—the Management o f Public Funded Debt on the part of the Bank. In order to she* that the terms_ Of the agree- ' ment between Government and the Bank did not pre clude the House from the .right of investigating the subject, he should beg leave to read an extract from a letter of the late Mr. Perceval to the Bank, previous to their taking this mattertnent upoh them. In this letter Mr. Perceval says, " I am willing to give way to the Bank in all minor concerns." This extract shewed very plainly, that it was not intended to give the Bank the management of this money, subject to no controul from that House. If the question related to the management of a few hundred- pounds, it might be treated lightly ; but when it referred to the management of 800 millions of debt, it then became incumbent on the Public to look to it in earnest. When economy and retrench ment were so loudly called foi-a—when the very inferior officers in the public departments Were curtailed of their hard.earned salaries, why, he asked, should not the House look to the reduetion,of the enormous, the monstrous pro fi tsof the Bank of lingliutd? . Mr. BARING thought it quite unnecessary at that moment to say anything with:respect to the renewal of the Bank of England's Charter, as the subject was not before them. When the proper time for its discussion came, he trusted it would be treated.with all the atten tion which a subject of such deep importance claimed—, Vicar, hear). It was east enough to talk of doing I without the Bank now that our revenue met our expen diture, and that our affairs were beginning to recover ; but if Gentlemen supposed that Government could dis pense with the assistance of the Bank, or a similar body, they were greatly deceived. In his opinion they could not move without it—(Near, heat). He thought that the bargains which tha t b ody made with Government were a fair subject of discussion in that Heuse; but he could not cmnpliment his Honourable Friend (Mr., Grenfell) with having made a fair statement with re spect to the public balances in the hands of the Bank. He thought, indeed, that his Honourable Friend had stated that question most unfairly, as he kept out of view.the promise of compensation made by Mr. Pitt to that body, which compensation formed one of the items in the account. With respect to the charge brought against the Bank of lending money upon mortgage, he could not but agree with the Honourable Director (Mr. Manning) that the facility Of obtaining those loans had been of great advantage in a period of distress to a most respectable body; but he still must object to the prin ciple, which, if generally acted upon, might be produc tive of great inconvenience. For what, he would ask, could be snort injurious to the interests of the country than to have the money of the Bank locked up in mort gages when it might be called for-at any moment, in the event of any great emergency of the State ? Was the country' always to continue at peace ? ‘He was not an advocate for war; but thebest way to prevent it was to be always ready to matt it; whieh could not be-done unless Government tould itletaye command a large cir culating medium to equip our fleets and armies and carry on the other necessary operations. He therefore, although fully aware of the bene€t which ahtst be ulti mately derived to the sank from the loan of !tidier do mortgage, Would kill obj'e't to their doing so On the grounds be 'had state& lis alluding to the bargain which: the Government had made with that body with "IFTPW"mwM.IRITM7 - '"' - - -T reference to the Military and Naval Pensions, he could 'net help Ailliug to the Right Honourable (I,..ntle mancs (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) recollection the many.waruings which he had received upon the subject in that House. It was, in fact, a bargain so monstrously absurd in all its details,' that no man of sense could be betrayed into it ; and hg was sore that the Right 'Honour • able Gentleman had only yielded to it - because he was unwilling to betriy his predecessor, with whom it had eriginated—(Hear)..--,By this bargain he (Mr. Baring) would contend that the country had been a loser to the amount of one million and a half. The facts of the transaction, stripping it of its mystery, were simply these :—When the late Chancellor of the Exchequer made this bargain, the three and a half per cents. were at 71, and a contract was entered into with the Bank to buy up the three and a half per cents. for five years. Thus, if peace continues, we shall have to tedeem at _lOO what we borrowed at 74. lie mightbe answered that the Stocks may rise, but might they nct also fall ? He (Mr.' Baring) denied that any man in his senses would make such a bargain, even on the supposition that peace would not be maintained. Fdr what could be more injurious to the nation than the choking up her resources with a prospective contract of thirteen millions, at a, time when she was only slowly emerging from every circum• stance of distress and difficulty? He tru ttd that the House would excuse the length of time he had occupied. their attention—(Hear. hear) —Fle had thought it tight to allude to this bargain, which he again acquitted the Right Flonourable Gentleman of having originated. He trusted, however', that - when the five years' contract had expired, nothing would induce him to renew its oi)eration. MT. H. GURNEY thought the Public had a right to know the quantity of money which was afloat. They were in a great measure dependent on the Bank, and were therefore entitled in some degree to govern its operations. Mr. MA BRI.1( said a few words expressive of his disapprobation of the contract entered into relative to the Naval and Military Pensions. He did not mean, however, to father it on the Right Honourable Genie man (the Chancellor of the Exchequer), as it was an ill begotten' child* of his predecessor, who therefore was alone responsible for its defects —(A lauffh). Mr. MONCK contended that the Bank had no legal right to lend money pit mortgage. By the Charter they were entitled to lend money upon pledges; and although mortgages were a kind of pledge, they were not of that kind contemplated at the creati,m of the Bank. The kind of pledge meant was gold, or silver, or merchan dire. He contended that they ought to take annual ac count of the amount of Bank paper in circulation; if they , wished to prevent a recurtence . of the mischief arising from the stoppage of the Bank in 1797. If such a course had been pursued previous to that year, that calamity would never have happened. He hoped when the Charter of the Bank had run out, it would not be renewed as a matter of course. The question was then put upon the Returni moved for, and carried in the affirmative. 1 JAIL ACT. ' Mr. Secretary PEEL rose, pursuant to a notice he gave on a former evening, to move, for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the Jail Act passed in the last Session.— It had been found, upon carrying that Act into execu tion, that there were one or two particulars which im peded its - operation, and to amend it in these respects was the object of his present Motion. In the first place, the Act as it. now stood required certain things to be done at the General Quarter Sessions in each county. The Counties of York and Lincoln being divided into districts, and the periodical administration of justice in those counties being under a different regulation, there were no General Quarter Sessions, and therefore, until by a new enactment they should be included in the Act, they could not be brought under its operation. Another' of the amendments which he proposed to introduce was, to give to local Magistrates a power of committing pri soners to the county jail at once, instead of to the dis trict prisons. He was convinced that the more this practice was'reduced the better; and it would be still more advanttgeous if there were only one jail in each county to which all the prisoners should be committed.As far as he had been able to gather the general wish of the inhabitants of such districts as he had alluded to, they would prefer having their prisoners' committed to the coupty jail, and would willingly pay the expenses of carrying them thither. The uniformity of discipline which prevailed in county jails could never. be attained in smaller prisons; while any abuses which crept into the former would be more readily discovered and corrected. The prisons of the local jurisdictions sometimes con tained no more than four or five prisoners ; they were not.subject to the same visitation as the county jails, nor was it possible to place them under that inspection which was so easily applied to a larger number. There was alsoanother topic which he intended to include in the Bill. Great difference of opinion prevailed with respect to the compelling prisoners committed for trial to labour in the same manner as those who were under sentence. Ile had no hesitation in saying,'that he thought prisoners ought not to be kept to hard labour before trial ; but fur the purpose of removing all doubt and difference of , opinion upon the subject, he should insert a clause to that effect. An lion. Gentleman (Mr. Grey Bennet) had, on a former occasion, given notice of his intention to propose a measure respecting this particular subject, but as he understood that to be only in cAse he (Mr. Peel) did not take some steps in it, the Hon. Gentle ' man would now probably not think it necessary to fulfil that intention. He concluded •by moving for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the Jail Act of last Session. Sir EDWARD PIATCH BULL expressed his con viction that the amendments would give general satis faction to the country. Sir THOMAS LETHBRIDGE observed, that the' county rate was becoming a great •burden in many counties, and hoped that Government would bring in a Bill to pay some of the charges at . present made on it out of the general revenue of the country. - Colonel WOOD said, by the last Jail Act, it would require 30001. to be laid out on the jail of the county .he represented, to make it conformable to the classifi cation clauses of that Act, after which it would never be occupied. He thought a clause ahould be introduced into the Act to exempt the Welch counties, where the jails were small and the prisoners few, from its operation. Mr. HOW-MUSE thought there was great reason to complain of the unrestricted application of the Tread , mill. One main objection to this instrument of punish ment was, that it was a far greater degree of punish ment to a weak man than it was to one who was of a robust frame and in good health. Another objection to the Tread-mill was. that it could be made an instrument lif petty oppression. It the Magistrates were to go on as they had lately, instead . of being, as they had rather . hastily been deemed the blessing, they would prove themselves to be the curse of the country. They were w~~l~ R ,-_. - , rrr . ppw r' ca, - • ton apt to conceive themselves to .be a pait - Of the GI vernment, and lie was glad to sea the Right tionourab Gentleman give them such a lesson as he 5V85 about t do by this Bill. Mr. Alderman WOOD assured the House that 11 Tread •mill was nothing new, as they had had it in ti,, City of London for nearly a century, for cornmerckal purposes. - S > fiarom its being hard Woz k, he would say it was the lightest they could put a man to w t• was condemned to hard labour. If they would do hi the Tmour - to - visit some of the jail's atilt City of Lan: don, he svoultfsbew them grrnetb ing like hard labour. Sir C. COLE thought with the Honourable - Member opposite, that the Welch counties ought to be exemptee from the classification clauses of the Jail Act. I with regard to:the Tread-mill, he did not see any rr sonable objection to it as an instrument of punishmel It appeared to him to be a perfect mode of pitnishme l because it was capable of being proportioned to power of every individual, and to every degree in cr'im at the diScretion of the Magistrates. Mr. Scdetary PEEL considered, that coniider ble expense was incurred by the plosectitiOnuf criminal there was no more likely mode of diminishing those penses than an effectual regulation of prisons. -He shot feel great difficulty in saying that no classification of-enders should take place in counties which were t small to bear the expense ; but he thought the difficul Might be obviated by three or tour counties joining building one jail. kVith reference to.what bad fill om the Honourable Member for Westminster, he real wished that flonourabie Gentleman would take the trt hle.to peruse. the re ; urns which would shortly belaid, the table, on the subject. Pee!) had caused Most minute inquiry to be made, and the weight of inf victuals subjected to the p•inishment .. af the Xre, 4 4..rni was.noted, from which it.would appear, that io far increased weight was an indication of good health, i Ouni,hirtent could not have 'operated injuriously. As labour wasconly for the short period of a quartet, of hour m a time, nothing could be more easy, if it were found oecessart, than to give to the robast man r turns, and to the weak man only one. Indeed, the culiar advantage of this puni.hnient is, that it could graduated. Hat were said, why, then, was it not? answer might fairly be, that the Magistrates donor fig any ill effects on the parties subjected to this disciplii On the whole, he considered the treat-mill as an :Lit .cable contrivance, and that no system of labour cow be'devised which was so little liable to abue. It • not .necessary for him to deter: the general (endue! the Magistrates of this country ; he believed there only one single case of a misconstruction of the A, and that was in the North Riding of Yorkshire; but remedy that, •he should introduce a clause to emu any prisoner from - the labour of the tread-mill prior his conviction.—Leave given to bripg in the Bill. JURIES. Mr. Secretary PEEL then•yose to move lot leave bring in a Bill to consolidate the laws relating , to the , pannelling of Juries. He said it was unnecessary for to attempt any eulogiurn on the system of Trial by Ji and he hoped it was equally unnecessary for him to that it was not his intention, in any part of the propose, Bill, to introduce a word that would tend to weaken' efficiency of that actinkaVe:system. His intention to consolidate the laWs ; aad when he stated that the: were no less than fifty Statutes on that subject, it tyr at 'once be seen how desirable it was that a console tion should take place. There were twenty differ Statutes to shew who might he a Juror in The number alone was a sufficient reason for his rn, sere ; but from the titles of-some of the Acts, no could be led to believe that they related to Juries. would defy any man to guess that he should tint a r lation on that subject in an Act for the more speedl -oovery of small Tithes. One Act was entitled preventing the exportation of Leather;" another, the better payment of Seamen's Wages ;" and loot! " for exempting Apothecaries from serving the ()lac( Scavengers," in all which there were clauses relatin; Juries, which he prOposed to consolidate. As to amendment of the law, which would of cdui se pro , discussion, it be better to postpone them to tore stage of the Bill. On the subject of the quali tion he should propose some enactment, and also fen more effectually compelling the attendance of ; Jurors. On the subject of subordinate .officers nominating persons who were to serve on Juries, be should also, pose some regulation : he thought the Magistrates Petty• Sessions might be usefully employed in cited the returns of the tithingmun or constable, and puns ing any omission of a qualified person.• Sir JOHN NEWPORT hoped that a separate , sure of the same nature would be brought forward plying to Ireland, where the present practice amour to a surrender of justice into the hands of individi very ill qualified, from the operations of jealousy party spirit, for such a trust. Mr. VVODEHOUSE disclaimed the intention of ing any reflection on any of the learned persons siding or practising in the Courts of Law ; but in si of them, the Court of Exchequer particularly, there a laxity of proceeding with regard to prosecutions, an array of Cotin,el, which must compel every 0111 enter a protest against both in a moral. and consti tional point of view. He recommended to the Iti lion. Gentleman (Mr. Peel) a.quiet and steady at tion to the amelioration of such abuses, by which (thou; no noisy fame was attached to it) he would confer greatest - benefit, and one which die great body of people would duly appreciate. Mr. HUME had on a former occasion expressed opinion in favour of choosing the Jury by ballot, he had since had an Cipportunity of conversing with officer whose duty it zat present to strike the Special Juries, and he (My. Mim) *as convinced that RothV would be more pleasing to I:im than to be divesv that power ; and. this he (Mr. Hume) thought rit easily be done. (-le hoped the Right ilonenrable tleman would save the 'House the trouble of g• through two Bills, as it would be. mt.ch more con' nient to have the whole sibject embraced in one Siat Indeed, he conidered the siMpliacation of the Stat book as an object well worthy of the attention of vernment. He instanced the case of an Act for,,rect ing of tithes, which contained a clause, the effect which limited the number of proctors in the I'rerogr Court, and the charges were in consequence very Mr. G. LAMB said he could not but feel jealous consolidating Acts, as he had seldom known them through the f louse without some new elapse being troduced. If he had-occasion, he would rather refer the old statutes en any point tesi.ecting the Jury system, than have to hunt it out in the wordy labyrinth .modern Ac: of Parliament. Much good was said have been done recently by the repeal of absolute prcssive statutes; kin there was a principle in operation, 3 io. e ble r di: to the t h.. 131 the Bible u ckal law; tifir git rho tins wadi th A .• tte bee OX , ted *art e But 7ea.- ttitatte ent:- new ed ent,. *ere p wt t: me, ti Wank Its wa !ra. thollx ex. system old • Siir 1 of e fro ado* alty 3urym P in ilel • Sir ally rou- W it c: i . fig , ndi A dim . 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