Star. — London, England, 1828-06-11 00:00:00

a right to interfere. Political toleration related to the intercourse and the relations which were to be permitted to subsist between individuals and the State. Now nobody could deny that the Roman Catholics were in complete possession of religious toleration. Their places , of worship threw open their doors as widely and as pub. licly as those of Ow Established Church, But it would be said, why not also admit them to political toleration? And this was the question they were now discussing.— Erperient6 was the mother of wisdom ; and he confi dently appealed to the uniform testimony of experience, since the period of the Reformation. It had been found invariably that Protestantism was the mother of peace. happiness, intelligence, and prosperity ; and on the other hand, it was found as invariably that wherever Popery prevailed, it was attended by intolerance,bigotry , wretchedness, and discord. The evidence given before their Lordships Committee bad been adduced to show that the Roman Catholic Religion had im proved. He would not deny that many individuals of that persuasion were intelligent and amiable men. He was willing to give merit where merit was due. But be would contend that the Church was the saute--that it was unaltered and unalterable. A memorable instance had occurred a few years ago, which might serve as a proof of his assertion. It must be remembered that in the time of Mr. Pitt, an appli cation bad been made to several foreign Univetsities for answers to certain questiens.as to the doctrines held by the Church of Rome. They answered in such a way as to produce an impression that the most obnoxious teens of the Church of Rome had been abandoned. The Most distinguished Catholics of England had con curled in these answers. But what was the result ? In about three months an apostolical letter reached this country from Rome, declaring that the people had no thing to do with religious opinions ; and the effect of this apostolical letter was, to prodace a declaration, signed by the premier Duke in England, and by many of the most eminent Roman Catholics, revoking what they had said. The concessions now demanded were de-. scribed as a panacea for all the evils which afflicted Ireland ; but he feared that they would not be found to possess all the healing virtue ascribed to them. The effect of the Resolution would be to introduce a few Catfiolit Peers into that House, and perhaps a greater number of Catholic Members into the House of Coon. moos ; but he feared that after this the people of Ire land would not find their situation much improved. What Ireland wanted was a regular gradation in the different classes of society. Absenteeism was the great cause of the turbulence and misery which prevailed in that =nutty ; and to an absentee proprietor complaining of the Calamities which Ireland endured, and imputing them to the political disqualifications of the Catholics, be wouldsay. in the words of Nathan to David," Thou out the man." This was what be believed, and if one absentee landlord should be restored to his country by the effect of what he now said, he should congratulate himself in baying contributed more effectually to the peace and happiness of that fine country, than he could have done by any vote in favour of Emancipation, or any declamation in the cause of liberality. There was OM other point upon which be must offer an Observation, the obligation of the Coronation Oath. An eminent moralist and divine, for whom be entertained the highest respect, bad declared it to be his opinion that the con strucdon of an oath ought to be according to the anions intponentis. In this opinion he could not agree. It am i ber n his Judgment ought tube according to the enastat ratipiextis, as the person having tram an oath was Wend in conscience to look to what was the feeling of his own mind, which he could know, rather than to theifeeling in the mind of another, which he could not so certainly know. for the construction of an oath. in which. be had appealed to his CauToa. The Canna ticib Oath bound the Sovereign to preserve and maintain the Piotestant religion. and that oath would be violated if he'tvere to give hii-assent to a measure which in his judgment waslikelY W weaken or injure the Protestant Church. Why did be mention this? Why. but to es-, preistis unwillingness to carry to the foot of the Throne a Bill which might by possibility expose the Monarch to.the painful alternative of opposing directly the deci. sion of Parliament, or of violating the cooscientious feel ings of his own heart. If it were contended that there was no possibility of danger from the concessions re mitted, he wadi; appeal to the eminent Statesmen. of another age, and be would ask what would be their feeling it they could now rise from the dead, and bear in, that House the expression of doubt, whether the admission of Roman Catholics to equal political power with Protestants could be attended with danger ? To them the nearc.h of intellect would appear prodigious and appalling. He trusted the House would not be disposed to hold the wisdom of former ages in contempt, for he felt persuaded that salons as they adhered to the principles which had laid the secure foundations of na tional peace, happiness, and prosperity, the sun ofEng land's glory would never set. The Earl of FALMOUTH said. that the Noble Lord who - bad last spoken upon the opposite side of the quess Lion must excuse him .if be paid mote attention to what fell from the Noble and Learned Lord.last night, than to,what had now fallen front him, in respect to 'what related to Ireland. He could not assert that the feel ings of the Catholics generally were identified with those of the Catholic Association, so far as related co the Protestant Church, but it was too true that many symptoms of this union, and no symptoms whatever of a coutzary nature, had been exhibited. Perhaps if he had never paid attention to the subject. for the first time, be might have been induced, by.the eloquence of tbe Noble Lord, to vote in favour of the Resolution. Bot he bid attended to every -discuesiore in that House since the year 1808, and he bad easefully perused many of the pamphlets which bed appeared upends subjeet, inchidiog the pamphlet of Mr. GAT Knight, and : what betenaht be permitted to call the strange propositionof; Wilmot-Hortoo. It was not by speed" however elaiserent, o: ,, :fuments, however torsions. Ow their L oofi t s h! ps to ils lamented in their dulls eltOn this impoctant subject. Theta avast nothing new its OR , GPM* tithe Noble M.v,quis who brought forwent she quostion: be acted snmuly as a s4,CIWNI-falihge. ll 9;thit Inlidieitiotrof Mr.-Knight ; he failed, however, to pop duce any _expo* of a toreiso State which was Anvil, applichble %oche peculiar Constitutioo andcircumsraoces of)his cowry. The OW/ one which bore. ao affinit y to,tbia coootry to the citctonstioces was. Hollaod. Their i t turdships, however, should recollect that the Centtiissetorn of Holland, gained only since 181 4 5. .Ex pmeo-cl, therefore, was yet wanting to prove that this wen example example which ceuld be followed with safety. jr had been clearly shown by the President of tbeCoue cd (Lord Bathurst)., and by . a Right Reverend Prelaso, in the cootie of last night's debate, that the encamp g a ged. of Prussia and Saxony.bote no ethology to this atOnerT• 'lt was in the PeCOlierity of. its etoOgitlaillii thot!all the difficulty lay. No march of intellect, how ever could *lace him oa disregard the a w ls . rit'y 0( titesreat _Statesmen and able,l4twyen.to w h om they WireindablefVo! the tlonriestUtion as it nowatood. pafso . thfiegifet 119,01.0Fatiup,bn AMR , that saki Pin- testants and Catholics enjoyed political power together no peace -was to be expected for tke State—no security for the Chusch., Their-ancestors did sot come hastily to this coeclusicin. They were led to it by painful ex perience. The fact was clearly written in deluges of blood. The queittion now was, would they undo what their ancestors h ad done ? They could nor grata poli. `deal power to Roman Catholics without i n terteri . ng with t h e principles of the glo rious Revolution. Why were Roman Catholics excluded from both Houses of Par liament? because it had been found that it would be otherwise impossible to give security to a Protestant Throne—(Hear). He knew his principles would be ob.' jetted to, as hostile so any thing in the way of alteration or improvement. He was not an enemy to improve-1 menu, but he would say, improve cautiously, improved your can, but do not interfere with vital principles— (Hear). It was because he thought the present con• stitution of Parliament to be of vital importance, that he was unwilling to alter it. He took for his guide history and ezpetience. not the match of intellect. Try expe riments, if they pleased, on agriculture, on the trade in corn, on commerce; let the farmer be crippled by such experiments—let trade and commerce languish—still, unless these great interests died of a gallopping con sumption, they might in the end recover the effect of these experiment.. But let no experiments be tried on the Constitution. Protestantism was its life's blond, as established at the Revolution, and with out Protestantism it must peti,h. He was not blind to the state of Ireland, but Emancipation was not a core for the evils under which it suffered. Under a Protestant Lord Lieutenant, wise and prudent—under 'a Protestant Secretary. active and intelligent, Ireland might yet prosper. Let time be given—let anarchists be put down—let the law have its course—do that, and Ireland mould ultimately prosper. If the Catholics ob tained what they sought for, he had no doubt that the decline of the country would be as rapid as its prospe rity had hitherto been secure and progressive—(Cry of ,e Question 1. The Duke of SUSSEX said he was a Member of that Family which had been placed on the Throne in conformity to the principles professed by the Noble . Lord who spoke last. He concurred in those principles, but be differed from the Noble Lord in the means by which he would support them. He was anxious not to 'give a silent vote upon this important question, but to state shortly the reasons which had induced him to support it from the very earliest period at which his attention had been directed to it. He would not take up their Lordships time in proving that the benefits of the Constitution belonged of right to all classes of his . Majesty's subjects. These Constitutional rights were called, in the great Charter of the country, the liberties and free customs of the subject, of which no person ought to be deprived•without the consent of his Peers. They were frequently called the birth-right of English men, and were so recognised in the Bill of Rights. He was fully aware that under peculiar circumstances there might be good reasons for suspending the rights of sub jects, if any class of them should be known to entertain principles hostile to the general interests and safety of the community. Such general proscriptions must always be looked upon with jealousy, and should never be OD forced without an absolute and overruling necessity. By their very nature they were temporary, and in this country, where civil servitude was unknown to the Co nstitution, they should cease with thecause to which they owed their birth—(Hear). —lt was a itiaxinsof law, that a wanton and careless restriction of the subject by the magistrate was inconsistent with the Constitution. Even laws themselves were so. if unnecessarily restrictive. Paley laid down the maxim, that it was not so much in the rigour as in the inexpediency of laws that their se verity consisted. The present laws affecting Roman Catholics might have been necessary when they were first passed. The question their Lordships had to con sider was, whether they were necessary now ? Some of these laws, be it remembered, wetepaned in Catholic times, and by Catholics themselves, which proved how jealous they were of their liberties, and of any encroach. meat on the part of foreign , authority. The Act of Premenies itself was passed by a Catholic Parliament. Times and circumstances bad greatly altered since the period when the See of Rome set up such high pre tensions, and those claims were put forward which still continued to be made anurgument against concession. In those days people did not travel so easily as now, the facility of communication between different nations was not so great ; there was little commerce; the power of the Press was not known, that power of which the world stood in awe. which was the terror of tyrants, while it !operated as the, guard and defence of the most bumble individual. With such guards as those-against the en croachments of bigotry, bad they now any season to fear the Papal ascendancy ? It was impossible not to see that the spirit of the times had greatly changed. Noble Lords might sneer at what some called the march of intellect. Call it what they pleased, but be ?egg/tied the change with admiration and pleasure; for, as the lower classes advanced in intelligence and information, pose of a higher order would find it necessary to make a proportionate progress. There was little chance of seeing persecution on the ground of religion once .more rearing its head, and it was but justice to say. that the Catholics alone were not chargeable with such enormities. In referring to the earlier periods of .the Reformation, the times of Edward the Sixth and James the first. it was lamentable to. see Anabaptists apd Unitarians butchered for the glory. and honour, of Goa. Those times were. passed, move liberal ideas. bad extended themeless to all parts of Europe, except perhaps Spain aid Pottogal. The seal was set to this, important change by the Congress of Vienna, where freedom of religious opinion was.pro yidad for and for this the , Noble Duke of Wel-. li . nstoa opposite molted the. thank, and gongratula. bona of every liberal mind. . Was this nation to be 'Wag in the.rateer of liberality, they who, in former times, when say. iodisidual of an country was sub jected to pacsecatioo on accoent of his religioosopisions, were the firse,to afford him as asylum, where be might freely panfuls his faith. and cumin bisindustty? To .this liberel way of acting they owed ; some floucishing butocalloi at tads Istluitfeetuse, which were now a sonmoof wealth: and seemed al if they were a blessiag bestowed isy,Parsetuesoa for such a humane and.gene roos portcy. fie Ousted their Lordships would not re. ject the pophoitioa now befits them. Some asked what securities were -to be.given ? To, this he would say, were their Lbasettips prepared to grant? If their Lord, ships were disposed, as she ground of sancessinn, to pre pose any regulation -which limy bid s altight to ask, and which the Catholics mien paat, be. did net think they would be objected to. 4 144 R ev . P re l ate w h o sno w the dense of the -deb.'. last. o h lw rodi t h a t ii securities were nietnti vilticksoaisLbe made secure,- hit cola . see no sworn for -refiktiagitrktbe,,Gathobessrlass they sought. 10,100 king Over tb•bisatespof thapeaiad. he' rotund thilt a>~ 1703 p **S. Dpi)eiroa7s,Aect Paved. Dr„ %Apart Wee. Wlilisteatithbiakmailitis !ampule**. hirrevon OunibllitlahtfAkelb7 ROM* Ca tholits tying orrocorly dominos* Ow basirtithea , by 410•401.10)1901* awe itsobeitlA was to be placed in the oaths of Catholics, h would lr quite us eless to impose any more tests of that kind. It was quiteobvious, however, that if they paid no regard to the obligation of an oath, they might without further trouble enter either House of Parliament. Nothing con tained in the Act of Union with Scotland or Ireland—nos thing in the Coronation Oath, he contended, precluded' their Lordships from doing this act of justice to their Ca tholic fellow-subjects. No person venetrated more than he did his late Majesty, or was more disposed to pay all duo respect to his opinions ,• but however great hill veneration and respect, it should not prevent him from discharging upon this occasion what he conceived to I be a duty to himself, to his country, and to his MAKIN. He supported the question from a conviction' of its justice, and of its tendency, if carried, to tranquil lize and improve the situation of Ireland. He never sought to make any proselytes to it, or to canvass in sup port of it. but. he felt convinced that it must be finally settled. It most go on. To go back would he de struction. The Noble Lord who spoke last talked of experience. Had they not tried the present system for '8 years, ever since the Union ?—a Union merely in name. In the present state of things in that coun try they were obliged to employ an army of 30,000 men, and 5,000 police, and yet the Noble Lord talked of the Constitution. He looked upon all that was going-osi in that country, and the system which had been for some time pursued there, as mere experiment, which could end in noshing permanently beneficial One . bjection against emancipation was the danger which would thence arise to the confiscated property of the country. One of the witnesses eiamined before the Committee upon this point, being asked what he thought of the confiscated property in the event of emancipation, said he thought it safe. When asked why he thought so? be said he had bought some himself, which he should not have done un less he thought it secure. Another source of apprehension was the tithes. But what benefit could the Catholics derive from the abolition of the tithes? It was clear.that if they were removed, the persons who paid rent would not be beneEtted, for a considerable addition would imme diately be made to the rent. He fully concurred with those who thought that something must be done. In conclusion, he could not but congratulate their Lord ships on the temper and moderation with which this question bad been discussed. The subject had been quietly and calmly discussed, and particuhuly by the Right Rev. Bench, whose conduct upon. this occasion most justly claimed the respect and •venetation of the House. He should not trespass longer upon their Lord ships attention. Indeed, having been for some tithe suf fering under indisposition, he could not, even if he were disposed, go at present into the subject at greater length.l The LORD CHANCELLOR wishedst that early period of the debate to state the precise grounds upon which be felt himself bound to oppose the motion. He concurred with the Noble Duke who had just sat down in approving of the tone and temper in which the discus sion bad been conducted —a temper adapted as well to the djgnity of that House as to the great importance of the occasion. If that had been the first time the pies .lion was brought forward he might, perhaps, have been disposed to vote for it. The Islob!e Marquis hsdl proposed an inquiry with a view to further conces sions; but when he (the Lord Chancellor) recollected that for the last twenty-five years the same subject had been agitated again and again in Parliament—when he recollected that it had engaged the attention of the ablest men of the age—that propositions had been submitted successively to Parliament which had successively failed—be could not makoltaiis mind to vote for a proposition, from which he could not hope for any satisfactory result. lf, as he could not but an ticipate, the measure to which an inquiry was a prepa ratory step should be rejected, it would lead to a feeling of exasperation on the part of the Roman Catholics, which every consideration should induce the Legislature o avoid. He knew too much of this country, and of the sentiments of this Protestant population, not to be aware that a measure of concession to the Catholics would be receivefl with the greatest alarm, and would probably lead to consequences the most fatal and de structive—(Hear). He would now remind their Lord ships old* progress of that question. In 180, a Bill had been introduced into the other House, to accom- Oil) the objects of the Noble Marquis's motion. That Bill had been framed by a man of great intelligence, —a man well acquainted with Ireland,—and was supported by his Right Honourable and lamented friend with the whole force of his power, his sagacity, and his eloquence. It was also supported by the experience and knowledge of his Noble and Learned Friend (Lord Plunkett) whom he was happy to see sitting amongst them that night, and received much assistance in its de. tails from the experiencetof a conveyancer of great legal acuteness. It was supported by the brilliant talents of Mr.Grattan, by the transcendent eloquence of his Noble and Learned Friend to whom he had before alluded ; and all these great authorities had expressed themselves so strongly while it was in progress, that if the Catholics refused to accept of the Bill, they gave it to be under stood that they could not feel themselves justified in supporting their cause any longer. The Bill thus framed and supported, went through two stages. It was coupled with securities of 'such a nature as the Protestants of this country had a right to expect. But no sooner was it known to the hierarchy and priesthood of Ireland, than they opposed it with all their influence; they pro nounced it a pernicious and destructive measure; they declared that ,the Clergy would rather be led to the . scaffold than submit to the conditions with which it was accompanied; and Mr. O'Connell, whose name was so often mentioned in those debates, had stated, that if it patsed, the consequence would be a destructive and bloody insurrection throughout Ireland—(Hear). Why then, when he saw 40 much talent, so much knowledge, so much wisdom, employed in framing a particular measure o f relief—• measure which they thought the best adapted to its object—a measure which they pledged their characters to support—when be saw the manner of its reception and the history of its fate, he despaired of, the power of Parliament to concert any specific enacts mart, capable of affording satisfaction to all parties. --(Hear, hear). The next measure was brought fors ward by his Noble and Learned Friend.' It bad passed t h e other House of Parliament; but on its introduction into their Lordships' House, though it never passed into *Committee, its provisions were discussed on the se. tend reading--every part of it was canvassed I and ht will remembered the speech of his "Noble and Learsed nand near him (Lord Eldon), who applied himself to. the different clauses with the most acute and laborious patiCularity. He was sure that his Noble and Learned Fsiend on the othir side would alio*, with his usual candour, that the provisioas of that Bill were. not units factory- He next 'same to the Bill of 18115, which wee brought forward by his Righ . t Hon. and hillaented Friend (Mr: Coining): No sooner Mil itt110 1, 1149 Itelandtlsa ~ such a Bill was intecideced.'iluin the. same opposition, ,at as. saw iadignatiou, tha same whit .of distiginfo k.faviont resistance was raasnfesto4 , uptight. 'ii atit had marked the career of the first BM When that . . . .Pa Inigic..lt was quay .sat 01 1 4%%! to *fir .4 1 ilabi " H ''' r• Vai mums a show of smutty, bus nothing antsateetiat After the fate of those three Bills, he could expect no. thing from the present motion; and if nothing ~," to follow the inquiry, Ireland would again he exatperated, and' great apprehension and alarm would fall upon the Protestant part of the community—(Heat, hear). H e would mow allude to a question which had been pot b y a Noble Lord, respecting the Revolution of 1688. The Noble Lord had asked why that question was. alw e y e . coupled with the period of the. Revolution I and be seemed desirous of carrying the' establishment of the 'Protestant Constitution of England to an earlier and le ak popular period. The fact was, that before the Reerobve tion the Catholics were held in check by the spirit of Puritanism. When that passed away, on the restoration of Charles 11. who was justly suspected of favour. ing the Catholics, the Test Act was passed, by whi c h they, as well as the Dissenters, were excluded from office. They had been excluded from Parliament be. fore by the indirect operation of other Acts; but it oat by the 25th of Charles 11. that they were excluded hog dffice, and by the 30th of the same reign that they were directly excluded from that House and from Parlia ment altogether. James 11. was known to be a P a pi st . and his devotion to the cause had led to the Revolu tion, which led to the establishment of the Protestant constitotion as it now existed. The celebrated declaro tion issued by William detailed the laws by which Catholics wile excluded from Patliament and from office, and the various provisions . of the Te s t A ct; and after stating the attempts wh ich were made I n evade those laws, describe d the great object for which he came, to be the enforcement of the execo. tion of these laws, the preservation of the lib ert i es of the country, and the establishment of the Proses. tent faith. A meeting of the Lords and Commons took place, a Convention was assembled, when these laws were again considered, etici declared to boa part of the Constitution. Up to that period it was clear that though Catholics were excluded from Parliament and from office, they were not excluded from the Crown. O ut then a preamble was attached to the Bill v f Rights itself, declaring that from that Period the Crown should be held only by a Protestant. Then it was that the Protestant Government was for the first time established —(Hear, hear). So that there never was a complete establishment and union of a Protestant Church and a Protestant State till the Revolution—(Hear, hear). He Would next allude to the Coronation Oath—not to show that it stood in the way of any legislative provi sion_ but to show that the Constitution was strictly Protestant. Those who had framed that Constitu tion,—those who had suffered and persevered in the cause—were amongst the greatest statesmen and lawyers that ewer this country had produced. Under that system we had long lived happy, illustrious, and pow. ertul—(hear)—and though he did not say that it should never be altered, he would say that it should not be altered without full demonstration of the necessity of change—(Hear, hear). In twelve years after, a new settlement of the Crown took place; the new settlement was of the same character—it confirmed the same acts. At the period of the Union, there was another confirma tion of the same system. Thus he answered the ques tions of the Noble Earl, and thus he had proved to the House, that a Protestant Church and a Protestant Go vernment was not completed till the period of the Revolution. Wbat change had taken place in the position or condition of Ireland which required that the conduct of this country should be altered towards the Catholics of Ireland? Perhaps it would be said that they were now in the hands of persons of a temper not to suffer the Catholics of Ireland to be trifled with. It was too true there were now some persons in Ireland exercising a sway and authority which was al together unknown to the Constitution, and little relished by the Protestants of this country or Ireland. They demanded tor the Catholics of Ireland admission to seats in this Protestant House—they demanded admio sion to offices of State—rendering thereby this Houses* longer a ProtestantHonse of Peers, and the Government itselt no longer a Protestant Government but a mired House of Peers, and a mixed Government—in Oat Catho lic. partly Protestant. Times, however, and circum stances had changed—(Loud cheers from the Oppo sition Bench). From whatever quarter those cheers prco ceeded, he would answer the appeal by reminding those Noble Lora, that when the question was first agitated Ireland had its own Parliament, and it was notorious that the' influence of a few, very few, individuals returned• the whole Commons of Ireland. The case was now uidely different—the power had changed hands, and the elective franchise in almost all cases was vested in the Catholic body. Indeed, that they were aware of, and even boasted of that overpowering influence in the state, was but too obvious from the tone their orators and pub lications assumed. In his opinion, and exercising the best judgment he could on the :object of their de wands, he did not think that making these con cessions now demanded would have the effect of composing and tranquillizing a country so circum stanced as Ireland. He had remarked, that for the last seven years, the priesthood and the Catholic hierarchy had so increased its influence and authority, that it was now more effective, and exercised a more unrestricted contronl than ever it had exercised in pre ceding periods of our history. This influence he firmly , believed would be only confirmed and strengthened if the concessions demanded by the Catholic Body were now obtained. Such was that influence, that arbitrary controul exercised over the whole of the Catholic body even now, that no one dared or presumed to raise his, voice against that sway exercised by the priesthood. Not even Mr. O'Connell, whose influence amongst that body bad occasioned him to be denounced ss the leader and demagogue of the party, could me . his voice with impunity against their wishes or their . fiat. If even this great advocate of their cause dared to raise hii voice against the sway so exercised, or trenched on the privileges or power of the Catholic priesthood. be was called to a strict account, compelled to sehnots to prostrate his opinions and himself with all his weight of popularity, before this potent body of men, and forced to sign an open recantation of his error—(Cheers . ) As long as this sort of religion continued to be the se: ligion of Ireland, it was vain to expect any efforts of this nature could ever succeed in calming and compeo . • ing that agitated country. And would it be right. under such a state of things, to grant to theb Ca"' tics of Ireland that species of concession which wa s' in fact substantial power ? Look at the situation to, which the question stood ! The population of Ire land was, although neatly 7,000,000 of souls, el: most altogether Catholics ; these were led by a band of active, sanguine, ambitious men, exercising a sear over the public mind, and over individuals thernseilveo not as recognized by or connected with the S tate, andt happily for the interests of this country, hitherto unex shTled—(Cbeers).—lt was an evil out of which.. we .very bound some how or other to extricate ourselvea.. rut, looking at the effect of former concessions. on sh:-• :. nnovating spirit of the Catholic leaders and the Codici l . tieratchy, he thought it was impossible th at we cou l d ver extricate ourselves from the difficulty .by adopting the Noble ... g I arvis near him.' 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