Star. — London, England, 1818-02-25 00:00:00

1 ,, t o give 171 e County of Surrey all the benefit c.-jay 13:idge , and had seemed to forget that I Bj ln , 01,,,1 e, - i r . :o the City of London. He forgot , . ot her thing , which, unless he (Mr. Barclay) "" Eri , ti t e n, was of no small importance, namely, ,h ou gh the City o: Lo ndon had in the first in ad'vanced the money for building Blackfriars c, t, had afterwards i)een paid back to them by which tkey were allowed to take from those as , e d .long it. For the sums which the City ' a d v anced to the Commissioners of Sewers in v, they would be returned ; but he feared there Tittle prospect of the loans taken from the Bridge Et,r.ei being repaid. Ile strongly objected t he call now made on the liberality of Parliament, hue d the cours e which had been taken by the ~,Dsahe Member who had brought forward the en ,,,, t ion, and maintained that the County of • paid, in the duty charged on coals re .vej had th r o;:gli the port of London, her full propor , f or the benefits she had received. If the City :ed itsulf just as well as generous, he was sure its • .5 would meet with support in that House; but instead of this, choosing to be magnificent on one otl:er occasha, the Corporation had thought fit to e rt to ether purposes that money with which they A t to !lave paid th.-ir debts, he thought it would ts i.„ : t o his Honourable Friend (Mr. H. Sumner) ,tosvot t the present motion. ,s : JA)IES SILIW observed, it appeared to be re J that the City of London were bound to ,por: all the prisoners committed to Newgate, ;: 1 1 prisoners of the Crown, and belonging to County, were confined there. The C i ty of Lon defrayed the the expenses of the jails of the County liddlesex, though this he would contend they had right to do. He argued against the present mo nd supported the amendment. slr. B. SHAW remarked, the question before the e was not whether or not it was correct that all prisoners of the County of Middlesex should be nnntted Newgate, hut e...ough had been seen of e cnaduct of the City of London to satisfy the .)lise, that unless paid in honour, in patronage, in i,domeat, or in sonic way, they would never take . themselves such a burden. The County of ...• and the other home counties, supported their .Is, and while they did this, it was not correct upon them to bear the expense of those of the London. Alderman ATKINS said, if the sums expen '.y the City in building Blackfriars Bridge, in other improvements, and in paying to the Find, had been placed out at interest, the fund might by this time have been paid over. He wished the sums annually paid • City to the Fund, and expended in improve r, he set against the 750,0001. which had been • .1-phans' Fund. He defended the application to Parliament on the part of the City, and having enlarged their prison to meet the House, they had no right to expect whole of the expenses should be thrown on 11-. 11. CALVERT could not see that the City had ir r;1(•::r for calling upon any of the home counties 1 '!..:x excepted) to bear the expense of its jails. e enrnise of the prisons in London and Middle- , v.:n!yreater than any where else, the County was . Iv: !: proportion, and could bear the burden. k.I.II'.NNET shewed the alterations which had :nal.e in the City Prison to have been necessary, the imperfect manner in which it had been ori ''y constructed. When he visited it, there were .ors from Ludgate, from Middlesex, and from -.! a. Those of London occupied the best part ?nson. The women were then all mixed, and • ' , ,2licved they were now. The question before I , lse, however, was not whether the prisoners well used or not, but whether the Accounts ' 1!)t. produced ? He was decidedly of opinion i [ht to be given. The worthy Alderman who ;,ken of the liberal treatment the prisoners re had mistaken the whole point at issue, and while on this subject, he had fallen into mistakes equally great. This he knew, that :, ,, atlernen, who were but the other day in the n, liai 1 , , e,t quite satisfied that the statement Ile C , 17. lienntr) had formerly made was in no , 1 c ,- ;:r:':::tged. For the prisoners it was not . ~I , j:at any luxuries should be provided.— , .:, t1.2 - iv:3,7.td was, that the jail should be made 01:10 ;I 01 ':t , trna, and that those confined should so atEt.ided to, that their imprisonment should 'la..; the effect cf disqualifying them for future ,t 1 y, k. iiiIENFELL wished to know if the applica rz rna,le to the House to enable the City to raise :ley is th e way proposed would not, if attended have the effect of ex:ending the period during 'di the duty on coals now paid was to continue ? Sr IV. CURTIS said it would not prolong the .t. for which the duty was to be paid beyond the whic:i had been named as that in which it should ,1537. S. THORNTON was of opinion the produc :of the accounts called for by the present motion :•.,..ce.sary to give the House information. It to be seen whether or not the City of London ilficirnt fonds of its own to meet those ex on which the present application to the House q!. 11. SUMNER, in r?plv, observed, that when the present application, if 'mended to, • cause the duty on coals to be continued .:ear 1837, n ought to be remembered at t ie dvy was to cease defore that year arrived, t a e her. Qi the Orphans' Fund should become sooner • . 7 (1. lle denied that the City had a right to call •=ny (ounty but Mi.ddltstax to bear a part of the prisons. He defended the use he had tle word embezzlement in his opening 4 :ideclared he knew of no other word that con - tctly have described the transaction of Orphans' Fund, he main :•;vl rIC ,. . been satisfactorily accounted for. It Y.!:T.V:: Low it had disappeared. The City kiirp.vn nothing about it until he had Tob;,N:t forward, The elder brethren of 4,1 l=tubers of tb.e Corpomtion Lithe City of Lon r.(it'l-s!ood had cane down to that House, , submit theur cane with respect to the to Parliament, but with a thousand pl.:;ent to Mr. Sj.eaker Trevor, who, in .• '4 " i,.d bee n ob!iged wput the questi on on •L. frc.gra the Chair, vd afterwards to walk out of the House.—The house divided—. For the Motion 24—Against it 11—Majority 15. FOROZRIZS. Sir J. MACKINTOSH rose to move for certain Papers, relating to the Prosecutions instituted by the, Bank for Forgery. The object he had in view was to ascertain whether the present system of paper money had a tendency to multiply the crime of forgery. He wished to obtain a return of the number of per sons prosecuted for forgery, distinguishing those convicted and executed in the fourteen years pre ceding the year 1797 ; and a similar return for the whole period which had elapsed since the passing of the Bank Restriction Act. Part of this information he proceeded to shew was already before the House. lie would state a fact which he thought would sur prise the House. It had been foreseen that the Bank Restriction Act would increase the number of forge ries of Bank notes, but if any man had said it would increase them one hundred fold, he would have been charged with such an exaggeration as must have taken from his statemeneall credit. Such, however, it would be found, was the effect of that measure.— During the fourteen years before the year 1797 there were but four prosecutions for forgery instituted by the Bank. In the 14 ysars which followed, from 1797 to 1811, there had been no fewer than 438 prosecutions. —The crime of forgery, it appeared, had thus been centupled, or increased one hundred fold, by the in troducing small notes into circulation. lie thought there could hardly be a more important question before the House than this, which went to ascertain at what an expense of human blood this system had been hitherto maintained, and must be maintained at hereafter. The House ought to know how far it went to the multiplication of crime. They sometimes con soled themselves with the thought that their time was occupied in framing laws to amend mankind. They were, he doubted not, sincere in their wish to do this, but he thought inconsistent in their conduct. If against the benefits conferred by other measures which they had passed, the evils should be set which had resulted from the Bank Restriction Act, he fear ed the balance would be against them. lie thought it ought to move for similar Returns of the Prosecu tions instituted against Persons forging the Coin of the Realm, as it might be that the increase in the forgeries of paper, had but corresponded with the decrease of those of gold and silver. He knew not whether it was so or not; but he thought on both subjects the House ought to have full information. Mr. BENNET suggested that the return should be made to comprehend persons committed for forgery. Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH then moved for Ac counts of the number of persons committed or prose cuted for forging Bank Notes, or for possessing or uttering them, knowing them to be forged, specifying the number sentenced to death, or otherwise, from the Ist January 1816, to the 20th February 1818.— He afterwards moved for returns of the prosecutions for forgery instituted by the Bank in the 14 years preceding 1797, and in the 14 years following, and also for similar returns of the prosecutions instituted by the Officers of the Mint within the same periods. Mr. GRENFELL thought it would be desirable to know what proportion of such prosecutions had been instituted against those whose forgeries were confined to small notes. It was most obvious, that many of , these forgeries werocoauoitoid by low peawass r -u , ba would not have been likely so to have committed the crime of forgery, had none but notes of higher value been in circulation. He suggested to the Honourable Gentleman the propriety of so framing his motion as o make this distinction. Mr. LOCKHART thought it was not desirable to treat this subject so as to excite undue commiseration for those who committed the crime of forgery : gene rally, he thought, greater compassion was excited in favour of the guilty, than indignation against the crime. He wished some alteration. to be made in Bank Notes, that it might not be so easy to forge them. He was of opinion that something might be invented that the public would be able to know by the eye, and the Bank by their private mark—a something which, from its colour and the quality of the paper, could not be easily imitated. Sir J. MACKINTOSH contended there was no- thing in the present Motion that could inspire im proper compassion for the guilty. He should be as .unwilling as any one to diminish the terrors or weaken the atthority of the criminal law. He would admit that no circumstances of temptation could justify the commission of crime. But when the law-giver, by injudicious measures, held out a temptation to crime, he participated in the moral guilt of the offender.— This was a position which he would not give up. General THORNTON said, he had wished two years ago that Bank-notes should be so executed, that it would be more difficult to imitate them. If the Bank were to go to a greater expense in getting them well executed, many forgeries, he was inclined to think, might be prevented. The Motions were severally agreed to. MISCELLANEOUS. General G ASCOIGNE presented a Petition from the Tan ners and other persons concerned in the Leather Trade at Liver pool, praying a repeal of the additional Duties on Leather. Read, and ordered to lie on the table, and be printed, after a few words from Mr. BENSON, on the necessity of repealing this dtity. . . • . . - Mr. BENNET moved for leave to present a Petition from a person named Virhitatey, one of those arrested in Yorkshire.— Being brought up and read, itcomplained of hard treatment, and pray;cl redress.—Ordered to lie on the table. The Honourable Gentleman then presented another Petition It was from R.. Lee, of Holmfirth Yorkshire, who was confined in lrons for twenty weeks in York Castle, where he was placed in the ce„11 in which a person named Riley had previously cut his throat. Ile trusted inquiry would be made into the truth of the allegations contained in the Petition. The Petition prayed for relief, and against any Bill of Indemaity.—Ordered to lie on the table. Mr. BENNET postponed hit motion which stood for to morrow, till Monday next. Sir E. BRYDGES moved that there should be laid before the house an account of the number of folio, quarto, octavo, and duoderimo volumes or pamphlets, received from Stationers Hall, by the British Museum, under the last Copy-right Act, between the Ist of January and the 31st of December, 1817, distinguishing the number of each size. After a few words from Mr. BA ti EA, the motion was agreed to. On tht motion of General HARTI4I certain returns connected with the Excise of Ireland, ordered in the last Sessions but not yet presented, were ordered to be produced forthwith. The Kilmainhans Hospital Bill was read a second time and ccrnrnitted for to-morrow. Genetal TIIORNTON, seeing the Otairman of the Commit tee of Finance in his place, wished to ask if any question had come before the Committee, on the loss sustained by the iteve. nue from the absence ofißri;ish subjects in foreign parts, and on the means of supplying tke skate. Mr. 1). GILBERT said, no such question had been before the Committee, nor did he know that such was I:key to occupy their attsattost—Adjourne4. COMIfON Yesterday a Common Hall was held for the pal pose of moving Resolutions relative to the c.natuct of Ministers daring . the Suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act, and petitioning Parliament against grant intc indemnity to them. The LORD MAYOR having informed the Meeting for what purpose they were convened, requested that a patient bleating should be given to each person who presented himself. Mr. Fnvett came forward.—After having spoken at some length, upon the subject of the liberties of Englishmen, &c. he observed, that at the rate Minis ters acted, although this country might bombard Al giers, it retained the spirit of that Government, He proceeded to describe the hardships to which unfor tunate men had been subject during the suspension of their liberties ; and read a letter from a respectable person in the Borough, relative to a series of hard ships inflicted on onelliomas Riley, who was appre hended at Huddersfield ; and though the testimonials of his loyalty were unquestionable, yet Government refused to bring him to trial or admit him to bail ; till at length, harassed by repeated disappointments, he in a fit of desperation, terminated his existence, leaving an unfortunate widow and ten children to bewail his' hapless fate. Mr. Favell said, the object oldie letter which he had every reason to think would be read in the House of Commons by Lord Milton, was, to beg some support for the wife and family of the deceased. He gave a history of the apprehen sion, &c. of the unfortunate man, and excited strong feelings of indignation in the Meeting. He hoped these things would be remembered at the ensuing Election. The hour of retribution was approaching, and of course the day of reckoning to the City Mem bers, who had contributed to shield Ministers from the heavy responsibility. He then moved the follow ing Resolutions: " That this Common Hall has viewed with the deepest con cern the frequent violations which have of late years been made upon the rights of the subject, more particularly by the late Suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act—, measure founded nei ther upon precedent nor necessity, but upon groundless alarms made by Ministers, through infamous and abandoned hired emis saries, for the purpose of stilling the complaints of the People— shielding corruption, and protecting abuses. " That the existing Laws of the Land were fully sufficient fur the suppression and punishment of acts of tumult and disorder, and were so considered by our ancestors, who passed the Habeas Corpus Act as an additional bather fur personal security, at a time remarkable for plots and alarms, and arbitrary and illegal arrests and imprisonments. " That as the passing of the said Act, in time of profound peace is without precedent—so is the wanton, arbitrary, and op pressive conduct of Ministers, under its suspension, unexampled in the annals of the country. That this Common hall cannot sufficiently express its ab horrence of those detestable miscreants, who, as Spies and In formers, have been seeking to ensnare the lives of unfortunate men, under the influence of want and despair, by exciting them to acts of treason and outrage. That the employment of such infamous Agents is disgraceful te the Government, destructive of social happiness and intercourse among the people, and putting the lives of innocent men in a state of peril and hazard. " That this Meeting forbears to detail the numerous illegal arrests and detentions apersons who have since been discharged without trial; nor will they recount the numerous cruel and viadiedve prosecutions in which the Ministers have experienced signal defeat and disgrace. They cannot, however, but express their comae, that In the iseninces where convictions have taken place, those deluded men were the victims of the hired Agents of the Government; and had it not for the fortunate disco very of some of these wretches. Inuadinds of innocent mannikin .b.?follows easeiiim-eseekositessmilioneedeendst esselieviorto' That this Meeting has seen, with no less grief than indig nation, secret Parliamentary Committees, a at the sug gestion of Ministers, composed of those inisten, and other Kacemen and Pensioners, for inquiry upon such ex parte evi dence as the Ministers find it convenient to furnish them—while the Petitions of those who complain of injustice and opyression have been refused even to be takhn into consideration. '• That the object of suck Committees, in the opinion of this Merging, cannot tend to forward the ends of justice—to vindi cate/Ise violated rights of the subject--or to secure the people from oppression--but to screen, protect, and indemnify their oppressors. " That Petitions be presented to both liaises of Parliament, praying them immediately to institute such full, impartial, and rigid inquiry into the conduit of Ministers as can alone sanely the justice of the Country or the expectations of the People, by referring all the proceedings connected with the late Suspension Act to a Committee, to be composed of such members only as bold neither place nor passion under the Government; and that they will not pass any Bill of Indemnity to Ministers, and pre clude those who have been the victims of oppression from a fair appeal to the legal tribunal of the Country.' Mr. WAITIIIIAN said, the question was not one to argue, but to be indignant upon. It became now necessary for Ministers to piove that they were justi fied, and their friends in the City were no doubt pre pared to aid them in the justification. He had seen what was called- the Report of the Committee, ap pointed to examine the contents of the Green Bag, and there was not one word in it that every body did not know before. The only thing new to him, was the declaration that the prisoners were not brought to trial, owing to particular circumstances--(a laugh). —The people were, however, left to guess at them. The real cause was, the villainous agents employed by Government would be exposed ; and could not, therefore, be brought upon the stage—(loud applause). If it were not for the discovery of Oliver, hundreds might have been convicted. The same kind of Tra gedy had been played '2O years ago ; but the Mana gers of the present day were such bunglers, that their machinery was exposed, and the piece could not be brought out—(a laugh.) But the conduct of Govern ment was wanton as well as cruel : they knew they could not bring forward those witnesses then, had they detained the victims of their persecutions in prison. A second Committee was formed, composed of Ministers, Placemen, &c. to inquire into their own conduct—(a laugh). Who now degraded Parliament, he would ask those worthy Members behind him, who were supporting the Indemnity Bill ? He trust ed the People would look about with firmness, and stand forward and say, that Ministers ought to be tried for their own acts by an honest and independent Jury of their country. He concluded by giving his hearty acsent to the Resolutions. Mr. SCIUTLTES supported the Resolutions. The Constitution, he said, knew nothing of a Bill of In demnity ; and such a measure was still more to be reprobated, when it was considered by what artifices 1 , it was about to be produced by his Majesty's Mi nisters. Was it not, he would ask, a crying evil, to rob twelve millions of people of their rights and liber ties? and were such proceedings consistent with that divine precept upon which human law was founded— " Do unto others as you would they should do unto your —He said this, because the majority of his Majesty's Ministers pretended to much religion— (hear, hear.)—He contended, however, beyond this, that the acts of Borough-mongers, Moncy-lenders, and Pensioners, v. ere u...coastituuonal, and trusted, that the whole unite 1 kingdom would take example by the City of London, procLim their injii iies, and, W passible, secure redress. Mr. %/att.+ us next attempted to address the Hall. He was received with hissings and every mark of dis satisfaction. All that could be collected was, that it had not yet been distinctly proved that Government had employed spies, and that if men looked to the private character of Ministers, they would not be so ready to question their public measturs—(Groane laughter). Mr. WOOLY* next came forward.—He agreed with the Mover and Seconler of the Resolutions uhich had been read, as far as the spirit went; but he did not think they went far enough. He did not think, in fact, they spoke loud enough against the conduct of Ministers. When Ministers were first about to suspend the liberties of the country, they proceeded upon es-parte evidence, and proclaimed the country to be in a most awful situation. To this credit was then given, though he was not among those who did so believe it. But now the scene was • changed, and when the eyes of the people had at length been opened to behold the truth, he trusted the attempt to " destroy the Constitution, under the pre tence of preserving it," would be manfully and col.. stitutionally resisted. (Hear, hear.) The country, for 2.5 years, had been struggling to obtain redress ef grievances ; and at a moment when the people ex pected that their cries would be heard, they were told that danger existed; and treason was abroad. But what was that danger and that treason, except the alarm of :Ministers, fest they should be dismissed from office, and their anxiety to retain their places? The one was the danger, the other the treason ! Hem .) The whole of their conduct had been well compared to a drama ; the plot was bad, and they dare not produce the actors. The piece, in fact, was damned embryo—(Applauses.) Was there, he would ask, among the unioitunate victims who had been made instruments in getting up the plot, a single man of rank, consequence, or even common independence ? Was it not, on the contrary, notorious, that all the .unfortunate persons connected with the riots were either very low in their condition, or totally desti tute? —{ gear.) But then the objects of the vindic tive proceeding of Ministers, it appeared, might now seek redress in yarn. If they were guilty, their accusers were too lenient to proceed—and if they were innocent, there v.lis to be a Bill of Intienuniy to shield the aggressors--1 Loud and continued applause.) Such proceedings would be to after ages a shame upon the present era, and while we talked of the conduct of the Dey of Algiers, it was scarcely 7possible to believe that the meanest despot would be guilty of imposing those arbitrary acts cf which this country now complained— ( hear.) The people were Lord that the Administration was both religious and charitable, but he must first know that these terns were changed before he would believe it—(laugl,ter.) He had heard with horror of the case of Riley, from the gentleman who commenced the business of the day, but he had to add to this a still more infamous fact : A person who had been with him on the previous day, assured him, that together with anothervictim be had been seised, and thrust into the very dungeon atYorkb.. where the unfortunate Riley' had been confined, and this too, while the floor and walls were clotted and be smeared with bloisd—(loud cries of hear, hear, and shame!) The assembly was told that tlie day of retri bution, or rather of election, was at hand, when the people might secure a fair representatiert. He thought this opinion fallacious, convinced that Ministers would still secure to themselves sufficient support to retain their places, taking due care at the same time to shut out every enquiry. Under all the circumstances, he thought the country should speak out. Mr. Woolle r concluded by moving a series of Resolutions, as an Amendment to the original ones. They were to the same effect, but couched in much stronger terms. Mr. HUNT came forward to second the Amend ment, and was received with great applause. He said that he was induced to second them from a necessity of using the strongest terms that could possibly be applied to the conduct of Ministers. The language of the original Resolutions was that which had been used in vain for the last twenty years—(hear). What would they say of a physician who col:tinned to ap ply only common palliatives as the disorder of his patient increased ?—why, they would say, that, in sttad of continuing the deacularn :olaister, he should put on a blister ' and if that would not do, the patient should be bled. Now, these amended Resolutions were intended to blister the Ministers—(loud laughter). As to the Petition they were about to vote, i t would be of no use; it might be put into the green hag, where, perhaps, the worthy Alderman (Curtis) would ha ve to decide upon it—(laughter). Mr. FAVELL admitted,. that the country had been Many years labouring to procure a redress of „griev ances, but that was not an argument against perse verance. He hoped that the opinions of the Livery would not be divided on the subject, as nothing pleated their enemies better than to see them divided - True fortitude consists in ways " Which justice Warrants, and which wisdom loves!" To the Livery of London he would leave it to decide, whether the Amendment or the original Motion most deserved their support—(hear, hear.) Mr. Wool.En considered it would be silly to with draw his Resolutions. He had committed himself with the Livery, and would abide the result of their opinion. "The amended Resolutions were then put and ne gatived upon a shew of hands, with the exception of about five persons. The original Resolutions were next put and carried with acclamations—and a Peti tion, founded upon the Resolutions--(Sce ildicr tisentent )—being read, and adopted, it was moved and carried, that Mr. Alderman Wood should pre sent the same to the House of Commons. It was then proposed and carried, that the other Representatives of the City in Parliament, should support the Petition. Sir WIW,IAst CURTIS stepped forward, but was re ceived with hisses and cries of " (Mr, et!" He cow. sidcred the proceedings unconstitutional, find should alway s take his conscience as his guide. Vhen the secrets of the Green Bag wure revealed, he was sure he would be acquitted by his fellow-citizens; " but, until then," said the worthy Baronet, " Mum is the order of the day"—(lnimmirrate ktughter). Sir JAMES SHAW promised faithfully to attend to the object of the Petition which had been read. He was ut tipiniop that Ministers had uct yet made out a If, J 1 . i ) , i 'I I 1 i ' Yt, i ( i I t 0 .$ 11 f , b , i . , i I 1 t, t i I ' l': :i 1 1 .• ;, `. ' irk i 11 4' ' b 4 i 1 ti 1 I 1 I 1,0 • C l i I I I i 1 i 0 I. 1 tl .: ;/ 4 4 I J i A , .1' • • lit i 40 0 •I ' I • 1 .. I 1 1, , . : .O . ); i t, $ I , 1 • - / 1 ', . 1 1 I - • • t V • • ‘ ,ll .Pl l t i t .• t 4 \ . t . ,