Star. — London, England, 1815-02-21 00:00:00

. li4hl t i rrs;ble ; but at moot he !Met aisume' N i t A mount as the sum demanded, which, subduct i, tw o millions for Ireland, would leave ieveoteen 41, 0 ni for Great Britain. To meet . this demand we were in the first place about ei millions of per. nuncrit amid taxes : he should propose a coati • uance of the war taxes, the customs, and excise, for • limited time, which would produce a further sum f millions, and he should lay before the House pl.rn for new taxes to the amount of five millions, siting in the whole seventeen millions and a half.- 1 .,t the House would recollect, that the charges of loan must be defrayed out of these taxes t and, „feed, even if the expenditure could be reduced to lirteen millions, still there must be a necessity for :qv taxes, unless the sinking fund were to be resorted .in expedient particularly to be avoided. It oa!J be found on examination, that after every war •,•,c was a winding up of great amount, and of con -24.1b1e duration. The expenses of the American .r were not cleared even in 1786, and atter the race of 1763, arrears of the war were still unpaid in 7' 7 5. Ile would therefore readily confess, that the r resent war expenses could not be wound up within . shorter period than four years, that is, ull 1819, --ad till that time he supposed some loan might be vecessary each year. He had the authority of Mr. l'iu for the kind of anticipation which his plan might :an to involre. The first resource then, would be continuance of the war taxes. Part of these had wady expired at Christmas, namely, the tax on T.:lige of goods carried coastwise--no renewal of jest was intended—nor was it the intention of Go anment to continue the duty on cotton wool, if :Iced in British ships, especially as this indulgence sight operate as an encouragement to the improve :ent of our plantations. Without any detail, he :mild merely state, that the total amount of the war ixes was £9,567,000, from which, deducting the mount of the expired taxes, and the £2,682,000 ledged for the loan, the amount to -be continued ould be £6,516,000. He now came to the new .ixes. To meet the curiosity of the House on this • abject, he should begin by chewing what it •was not is intention to do. The assessed taxes would be na- .urally looked to—and to this subject he would take be liberty of first addressing himself. He did not .mend to move any addition to the window duty in nhabited houses, as this would fall hard on many 'lasses who could least affoid it : but he should pro. ,use a tax of a similar nature on green houses. hot louses, and conservatories. The estimate would be nade on their superficial extent, and 48 square feet 4f surface would be considered as equal to a window, mud rated at 3s. 6d. Thus, suppose a green house to 60 feet in length, and 12 feet in height, its surface would be equal to fifteen windows, which, at the rate f the window tax, would be M. 7s. 6d. He sup •csed that few gentlemen would be inclined to object to this tax. Considering on the other hand how much :Le trading branches would be relieved by the remo• sal of the property tax, he conceived that tradesmen sold not object to such a substitute...she should now propose, which was a tax on the windows of shops, and wa rehouses, in the same proportion of Ss. 6 d. a ' window. It was difficult to procure an accurate calcu lation of the amount of a new tat, but it was estimated the produce would be about £50,000 a-year.— rhe next tax related to inhabited houses : he should , pr. pose an augmentation of 30 per cent. on the pre salt tax on the rents of inhabited houses, and the rent of warehouses would be charged in the tame manlier. It was reckoned that the first measure would produce £396400, and that the warehouse woidd produce £150,000. The next class of t isAtion would embrace set vants, c arriages, and horses for pleasure and luxury ; a considerable midi- Con would be imposed on them, namely, about 80 per cent. Gentlemen, perhaps, would not be very vager,to object to this proposition, when they consi dered the difference of amount between this tax and the property tar. The increase on servants was esti mated at A:110,000 ; on carriages at 5363,000; on horses, at 64500 ; men and horses employed in husbandry were Lot included, but an addition of 430 or alt) per cent. on horses used in trade would amount to about 485,500, and on men to about 4148,000. An increase on the tax on dogs would amount to 4105,500. An increase also on the duty on g ime certificates was reckoned at 542,000. lie should propose that all unmarried Men who al ready pay an addi t ion a l rate on servants and hone, shunli pay a still farther rate of £5O per cent. on thur servants' horses and carriages, which would .produce 41.20,000 (a loud laugh). The aggregate amount of these several sums was two millions and a 'half. He came now to the customs; and here he intended an additional duty on tobacco, and this the L.ther because there was reason'to believe that peace with Auktica would make tobacco cheaper. The duty would be at the rate of 6d. in the pound, and would produce 4300,000. Aa additional duty of £2O a [WI would be imposed on foreign wine, and en increase would be laid on the licenses to dealers in excisah!e 'Articles. He was aware that this last irn• post was not free from oljection, as it might be said to a ff ect s m a ll tra d es ; but when its moderate nature vas considered, and also thin it referred to persons who had hillier to been liable to the property tax, be &light it was a computation not much to be cow plained of, and that it would be more agreeable than the tax from which they were relieved. It was esti mated at £500,000, and yet it would be seen on Ind v_estigation that the pers ons pay i ng i t wou ld not, in fact, pay in so large a proportion as at the beginning el the war. The aggregate amount of these several items was 1950,000. It was also intended to impose a small duty connected with the Post. Office. A tax 0 1 Id. would be laid on every newspaper sent by the' t . nilal post. As long ago as in 1788, a similar' s:hi:ne of taxation had been recommended. It might pc . illaps b e t h oug h t t h at t h e stamp• d uty wou ld b e a..ected by this arrangement ; but those Gentlemena when in the country, indulge themselves with a London paper, would hardly forego a luxury with ull;ch every body who heard him was so well ac i .:rated for the mere sake of the additional penoY- Irrnbtrs of the House were exempt to the amour °' An ounce weight. and if it were thought neeessary nigh t be still f urther exempted. This duty woul Produce 450,000. Other measures which would be; hci,..iitter detailed were in contemplation with respect to the Post• Office as to the foreign postage, and espe cially regarding the carriage of letters to the East I ndies. The amount of all the taxes now eibded w cal4 be . 43,7g8,,000, bin Ave trope waged% On a futnre occasion he woulti give the details of the Rest of the intended taxation; he would now merely state what would be affected by the proposed taxa tion. A. coesidersble advance was intended on stamp detiew (itettektireg to law proceedings) which it was calculated would produce about £700,000; but the procesoof eolleeting the aniount of stamps was so complicated, that Gentlemen would not be surprised that no schedule could yet be completed. About AC6OOOOO still remained to be supplied, and he hoped that the system of bounties and drawbacks would be able to meet it. He proposed particularly a con tinuance of this system as vs printed cotton and su gars. There was another subject on which he had received repeated applications—he alluded to the great article of beer. A considerable increase had some time ago been imposed on the price of beer ; the public at present seemed to be convinced, and he was disposed to agree with them, that this price WAS now too high. He was certainlfunwilling to increase the price of this article, and would rather relieve the public than add to their barthen. He hoped, there• fore. that the hint now thrown out would not be lost. Government would wish not to interfere between the consumer and the maker ; but it would not be neu tral upon this occasion j for, in consequence of the application of the brewers, he and Lord Liverpool had on a former occasion been parties to the rise, and he must therefore now distinctly declare that they could not bold themselves responsible for the conti nuance of that increased price.—(Hear, bear). — Upon the whole, it was thought adviiable not to touch the sinking fund, but allow it to increase for four years at compound interest ; so that, if so un fortunate a result should happen, it might be a re ,source for future wars; and on the other hand might ,extinguish the debt at simple interest within 45 years. It would be a constantly growing resource. At the same time, he hoped that peace would be consoli ' dated and secured, and that the hostile spirit, ge nerated by so long a war, would subside every year, even every month. At any rate it would be clear, that while we were disposed to be tranquil and act with moderation, we were prepared against all the possible contingent attempts of our enemies. It was with no small satisfaction that he nowlooked back upon the late war, and congratulated the House on the expiration of that mass of taxation with which the country had been encumbered. Nine millions of taxation were now removed. He hoped that this re duction would prove advantageous uot only to private comfort, but to the future extension of public reve nue; for no doubt this surplus would be employed in trade, and find its way ultimately to the public re. venue. He must also congratulate the House on the progressive increase of the revenue (independently of the property tax) within the last three years, which promised the best results for the future. The three last years presented the following progress : the first of them produced £47,000,000; the 2d 848,468,000; the last £51,000,000. The country might now be proud that ittad achieved all its great objects, while it was at the same time in the most flourishing con dition. He must beg leave of the Committee to tell a story which had relation to the present subject. The late Mr. Burke, on some occasion at the beginning of the French war, being among his friends, drank suc cess to 61 the long war ; ' the company, not expecting the war to be long expressed some surprize, but Mr. Burke repeated his sentiment, telling them that it must be long. adding, " Dante, et vosmet rebus sante seeundh.° • • 4 Such was the opinion of that great statesman : he felt that all that was to be feared was a feverish imps. !lore on the part of the people at the necessary bur then. The country, - however, had borne all : it had nobly persevered, and it now remained for it to enjoy the prosperity resulting from that perseverance (hear). The Right Hon. Gentleman then moved his resolu tions, according to the tenour of his speech. Mr. WHITBREAD said, it was not his intention to have said any thing on the present occasion, had it not been for a certain taunt or sneer that the Right Hon. Gentleman had, in a certain part of his speech. thought proper to throw out against the trade of which he had the honour to be an humble member. In that part of his speech to which he alluded, the Right Hon. Gentleman bad said, do that he had received several hints, that an additioaal tax might be laid an -beer from the high prices at which it was kept up." The Right Hon. Gentleman had this night offered his plan of finance, and many were of opinion that one of his articles for raising the money he wanted would be a tax on beet. The Right Hon. Gentleman had kept every circumstance relative to his plan ex ceedingly snug and close. Not a whisper had made its way to the public till the whole promulgation had jest issued from his own mouth. All enquiries made by himself or his friends had been fruitless and ineffec tual. He would not give the smallest hint in answer by which to guess at ; so that the trade to which he belonged could not form any true judgment by which they were to act, as to the continuance of the present prices of beer, till they were able to ascertain what the intention of the Right Hon. Gentleman would be. l The Right Hon. Gentleman had been waited on company with Lord Liverpool by a deputation of the trade, of which deputation he had the honour to be ' one; in which they had fairly represented the state in which they stood, and the injuries they sustained from the then high prices of barley, ikt. The conse quence of which was, the prices bad been raised. A second deputation had in like manner taken place be- Itween the same parties, and a secendincrease of prise bad taken place • but such se cond . g . sice was soder given up, and the trade had Inge waned to see what ate Right Honourable Gentleman would do before They could say what they should do. Now they were possessed of that, they would take their measures within 48 hours; and had the Right Ildnourable Gentleman condescended to be a little more commu nicative, the business would perhaps have been set tled, and ,the public acquainted with the intentions of the trade before this time. With respect to the plan of the Right Honourable Gentleman he should re. sant his opinion for some future occasi o n . r Mr. TIZRNEY denied that the House could con glace that a successful termination of the war which left so great a btirthen upon the shoulders of the pe e ople. The cheers whieh succeeded the speech of. th Right Honourable Gentleman. seemed as if some God-send had dropped down, rather the a call to provide 11 millions. He protested 'gaunt; the proceedings of the night as unpailiamentary.: To ask for money was to. without affording the , country the Opportunity of kniwing why they . ifve, called upon to provide. There were no pwers pro fined to chew that the wants were real. He defied any Gentleman to say, from the speed! or the Chan cellor of the Exchequer, whether the counny was at peace or at war.—All that could be gathered was, "Give me money, and prepare for war." —(A laugh.) —Was that so satisfactory, that at the end of a 2 years? war Gentlemen should cheer ?—(Near, hear.) —Why was the House called upon to embark in such a boat before they knew whether America was at peace with us? If questions were asked as to the state of affairs on the Continent, the reply was, " This is not the time to answer ; you must wait." When, therefore, the Right Honourable Gentleman Called for money, the House should tell him, " This is not the time to call for money, answer our ques tions first, or we will not vote you any."—(4 laugh.) —What bad the Right Honourable Gentleman said? why he had made. a sort of funeral oration en the Property Tax ; he did not like to speak ill of the dead. De moduli nil aiti Lonins—but it was not dead according to the oration, but only slept.—(4 laugh.) It was held out this night, according to hts speech, its terrorem, as a means of war. There bad been doubts as to its continuance. The Right Honour. able Gentleman had not condescended to advise with the proper Counsellors on the occasion, the Members of this House; as he had chosen to take the advice of a Mr. Gladtsanes, of Liverpool—he had taken him as his Privy Counsellor, thinking it wiser to con sult any head than his wilt. In that he had acted wisely—(4 lamgh)—but the people of Liverpool, so far from consulting Mr. Gladstanes, would not hear him k yet this Gentleman was to advise a serious in- novatton in our system. The Right Hono*able Gentleman strongly recommended the appointment of a similar Committee to that of 1791, to sift into the situation of the country and the expenditure. Mr. Pitt had not done so ; he would not have called fur such a Vole, without having armed himself with a Committee. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER observed, that he had this night been providing for votes passed on a former evening, a hich would be the subject for future consideration when the Bills on the Resolutions were introduced. With respect to the observations of the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Whit bread) if he or any other Gentleman had communi cated the intention of the trade on the subject of the price of Beer. he should not have noticed it in the House in the way he had done. Mr. PONSONBY was decidedly against the mode. if proceeding adopted by the Right Hon. Gentle man. He thought when the people had exhibited so much patience, so much fortitude, and so much good humour, during the war, they were entitled to some respect. But how were they rewarded ? By keeping them in ign.;rance of the nature of the wants of their Government. Was any Gentleman acquainted with the expense of any one head of the service ? To make this country really fit to engage in a new war (if a war should be necessary), was to reduce the expendi ture of the public money. No one would believe that the Right Hon. Gentleman gave up the Pro perty Tax in consequence of the resistance made to it by the people ; and if the people were but true to themselves, they would oblige the Right Hon. Gen tleman and his colleagues to reduce their unnecessary and wasteful expenditure— (Hear.) Mr. MARRYATT contended, that the alteration in the drawbacks and bounties on sugar would have the effect of encouraging the Slave Trade, by giving ihe sugar of the colonies of other countries a superior advantage over our own in the markets of the Conti nent. He hoped the Chancellor of the Exchequer i would amend this part of the scheme. Sir J. NEWPORT said, that Ireland was a mil ;ion below the interest of her debt and the Sinking Fund; yet, with that fact staring himin the face, the Chancellor of the Exchequer had held out to the House, that two millions of his present plan were to, come from that country. Now he wished the House' to know, that this was a complete delusion, for Ire land could furnish nu such sum. Sir JAMES SHAW said, the tax on shops was attempted by Mr. Pitt, but he was forced to abandon it. He therefore hoped the Chancellor of the Exche quer would abandon this tax, for it would fall on a class of people unable to pay it. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, this tax bore no analogy to that of Mr. - Pitt ; for that was one in proportion to the Tax on the dwelling. Louse. But this being only Ss. 6d. on each window of a shop or warehouse, was so small, that he hoped the Honourable Baronet would not object to it. As to Ireland being unable to pay her quota, she was bound to supply it by the Act of Union, and he had no doubt she would be able to do so. Mr. BARING said, the scheme of the Right . Hon. Gentleman was formed on an expectation that the taxes would continue to be as productive as they had hitherto been. A statement, founded on such an expectation, must be utterly fallacious. For the al. teration in the prices of bread and labour would. make the taxes far less productive. Besides, the mode Of bringing forward these propositions had been most unusual. The Right Hon. Gentleman had talked of the increase of our colonies. requiring an increased establishment. But all these establishments, should be examined 'by Committees, to see whether: they could not support themselves, which he believed they could be made to do by a little care. If he wer e ratt o 3y informed, we had a Governor at the Cape or, Hope, with a salary of £26,000 a year. [Mel Chancellor of the Exchequer said 4110,000.] This' salary might be only £lO,OOO a year; but be wished• to know, if, with his other tides, such as Commander of the Forces, the Governor did not make out full £20,000 a year ? He reprobated the Chancellor of the Exchequer taking leave of the departed property tax with a panegyric. The weight of that tax fell on trades and professions of the middling classes, in which reepict be was convinced that the evil was ir remediable. There was not a tax in any country in Europe so grievous as this, when it was recollected that persons in business were exposed to be catechised by the Commissioners one a year as to his ckum stencil, even to the most private of his concerns.. This tax, then, had better been allowed to depart without a panegyric. He rejoiced that the country' had got rid of it, and never would consent to its real newel unless it were that a war should arise which would thrones the subjpiption of th%country. , Mr. G. ROSE desired the Hosoumble Gendemem to consider the state ef i lbecountry when the Proper( Tax was imaged. 44 my:. 01 is of nala c have devised a nester expedient for saving the coon; try? The National Debt was without all doubt 560 millions less than it would have been if this 3 y:tern had not been adopted. Without this Tax the coun try could not by possibility have gone on. There was no class in the community but what hail been more or less benefited by the consequences of this Tax. He was convinced that the country had naa.:e a bargain in giving up the Property Tax; (hear, hear.) Mr. C. GRANT said, that the Right lion. Gentle. man opposite (Mr. Tierney) supported a plan in 1807, for mortgaging all the War Taxes, sillich surely was a measure of a more objectionable nature than almost any other. The Property Tax had been called unconstitutional: but surely no one would say that Mr. Fox would have adopted an unconstitutional Tax. It had been objected, that the Chancellor the Exchequer had proposed his Taxes before NI • Supply was gone into, or any statement made what was to be the amount of our peace establi-1.- ment. Now the fallacy of this argument was, that they reasoned of this year as if it were one of peace, when, in fact it was a year of war expenditure. Mr. FREEMANTLE said, it was a 1 imentable reflexion to think, that at the commencement of; peat: the country was not to be relieved from the burden of the War Taxes. The House ought not to vote aw 4 y 'eleven millions of the public money without the whole of the Supplies before them. In 1796, th.: expenditure was 141 millions; and now, when we were at peace, we were to go on with an expenditure of' between 50 and 60 millions. But we were doing. this on a war establishment in Europe of 75,000 men. Now he wanted to know when the country was to el pact the reduction of that force, which was main tained at more expense than all the wars of Marlbo borough and the Allies ? The House ought to know what was to be the permanent peace establishment, before they voted away more of the money of tl People, that had been so burdened. It was hardly 48 hours ago that the Chancellor of the Exchequer proposed to burden the People with £BOO,OOO lor a new Post-office. This Government was one of lavish and thoughtless expenditure. He would oppos.: the measure in every stage. Mr. HUSKISSON contended, that it was suicty Parliamentary to proceed to vote the Ways and Means before-voting the Supplies, when they could not at that time be accurately ascertained. If the consequence of this measure would be to take nine millions off the People, that surely would be the means of making the remaining taxes more, rather than less, productive. It was impossible for his Right Hon. Friend at present to calculate the expenses of the peace establishment. Mr. FOIL BES objected to the Postage on News papers, as it would fill very much on the Peopie of Scotland, on whom a considerable addition in the postage of letters had been already laid. He also complained of the postage of India letters having been taken from the East Itidia Company. There were many letters lying at the Poit-office, directed to soldiers in India, North America, and B ALIA - id, because the postage of them had not been paid. Mr. PONSONBY said, on the Report of the first Resolution, he would take the sense of the House on a proceeding, by which ,the Chancellor of the. Ex chequer called on the House to vote the public 'wary first, and then to hear the supplies afterwards. Lord MILTON wished to know if the Governor of the Cape of Good Hope had a salary of iCIO,OOO a-year ? Mr. PEELE said, the salary of the Civil Governor was limited to £12,000 a-year out of the funds of the colony. If he was also Commander of the forces, he of course bad the emoluments of it. Lord MILTON wished to know what was the amount Of the emoluments of the Commander-in. Chief there. Mr. PEELE said, about.re9ooo a-year. Mr. BARING wished to know if* the interest of the debt of the year was to be provided for out at the taxes proposed, or by some new taxation. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that he saw no reason to think that any further taxation would be necessary. Mr. TIERNEY wished to know how much of the five millions would be sufficient to provide for the in tenft of the Loan e The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he could not tell. Mr. TIERNEY said, that was exactly what he expected. It was a son of Ascot Mari, in which the Chancellor of the Exchequer 'proposed a large sum, without being able to state what it was wanted for. The reason that he wished particularly to be informed of this point was, that whatever was voted merely for the interest of the loan of the year, went on one prin ciple; whereas every thing that went to raise the supplies for the year within the year went on another. The difference was between a war system of taxation and a peace system. He never could vote the ways and means in a lump, without being able to see dearly upon what principle of taxation Ministers were pro ceeding. Sir WILLIAM GEARY 'considered the present to be an exceeding wrong scheme. No scheme he had ever heard brought torward in that House ap peared to I.im to be so fundamentally wrong.-- Never had he seen it proposed to impose a tax, even to the smallest extent, without an estimate of the sum required being laid before the House. The sum which the House were now called on to vote, was 14 or 15 millions ; because though nominally only about five millions were to provided, to mike up a supposed deficiency, arising from the failure of the Property Tax, yet, as the other Taxes proposed to be continued were War Taxes as well as the Pre. perry Tax, they, as well as that Tax, ought at once to have been taken off with the return of peace. —He was prepared, therefore, to oppose this and every other Tax, imposed merely as a War Tax ; esteeming it. as be did, to be an essential principle of justice to the country, that all such taxes should end the moment the war ceased: It was on this principle that he (Sir W. G.) consented to open the pockets of the country ; but the same necessity not now existing, be did not see that the same burden could with any consistency be continued. What was the plan of the Right Hen. Gentleman, as developed this night, but a change of name for the Property Tax ?-64 continuance of that which, by special arm. meet, ought to have been set at rest along eft& the othar war taxes, at the conclusion of a treaty of peace. He considered the proposition of the Lest am Qs therefore, as uncoossitodsoal ; and. as - • -