Star. — London, England, 1805-06-01 00:00:00

. I 4 • waft not able to recoliea any debts due the lac: Mr. Ad.un Jellieoc. that he confidered as . e . Y.bui committee duly confidering the reference un der which !heir powers are derived, have not felt them litres at liberty to come to any fpecific refolittions on the merits of the kveral tranketions which have been fubjeets of thsir inquiry; they have deemed it even more conf.flent with their duty, to abflain from oblervations, which might feem to convey a judgment upon any of the points in queflion. They have endeavoured to give the Hoare a con ea fummary of the material pans of the evidence, con fining their remarks aridly within the limits rf e::. planation; leaving the conclufions to be deduced therefrom altogether to the wifdom of the flunfe : but have thaught it right to annex, in the Appendix, the whole of the evidence taken before them con& icing this condi of proceeding, under all the cir. rimflab. es, as likely to prove more fatisfaitory to •he Houfe, than if they had omitted thufe parts, • -bleb, upon a minute review,they might have thought trot immediately relevant to the ohjeel of inquiry; trnaing, that if in any intlance the examination &add appear to have exceeded the aria line of invefligation prekribed to them, it will be attributed to the defire they have felt to execute, in the fullea manner, the duty intrulled to them by the Houfe. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. The ExamitunionCIALEXANDRRTROTTAR, Ejq. talen before she Committee on the Tenth hard Report, May 3, tBcs. The &It part of Mr. Trottel% examination, rela tive to the 40,0001. paid to Lord Melville, in 1796, for purpofcs not naval. It was paid to Mr. Wilfon 'rho of for Mr. T. in his abfente. • Did you never pay any firm or rums yourfelf by draft or notes, or payment of any defcription, into the bands of Lord Melville, LI- any perfon authorifed by him,or on his account, of public money iffued for Na val Services for purpofes not Naval ?—I have already explained my difficulty to the Commiflioners of Naval Inquiry, cf difcriminating between my public and private monies ; and I have already declared to you that I did not know the application which Lord Mel. vine may hare made of advances which I may have oecaflonally made to his Lordship. (tif,Yios repraied.)-1 prefume I have. At what time, and to what amount ?—My recol leeion does not enable me to anfwer that queflion. Were any entries made by you, or any perfon au thorifed by you, in any books or ledgers, or any me mcrandom kept of any 14feripti in, of fuch payment ? kept regular accounts of all my money tranfac tions with Lord Melville, but baying clofed and fet tled the whole of them, and, a mutual releafe having Paired between us, I have not thought it neceffary to preferve any documents refpeaing my tranfadions with his Lordfhip. Are chore documents in exiikenee 1--They are not, as fir as I know. When were they de it royed ?—At the time I was out. of office ; I think in t 803. Did you destroy them ?—I did; I „burnt tilde I thought unneeeffAry to keep. Did there books or documents contain your ac co;•:.ts with any other perfons betides my Lord Mel ♦ille :—They did. 'When was the releafe before mentioned executed ? :n the tar 1833, to the bea of my recolleaion. When paymentsof the defcription above aatedwere made, were they always made to Lord Melville per tbnally ?—Not always. Did you ever do not at this moment, recolled I e ,, er did. To whom did you ever pay, on Lord Melville's account, public money for purpofes not naval ?—I tiled moll frequently to pay them into the bands of the principal Money Condudor, one of the officers of the Navy Pay Office. What was his ;same ?—Mr.Tweedy; he is now dead. What other perfonsdid you make loch payments to? I cannot recollat anv other perfons at this moment. How long has Mr.tweedy been dead? Two or three years fince Lord Melville's Treafurerihip ceafed. To what cther perfons did you makefuch payments? I do not re:l.:Ale& any other perfon. Was there any account kept between Mr. Tweedy and you ?—None. What was the nature of the difcharge you received from Mr. Tweedy ?—I took no difcharge. What authority did Mr. Tweedy produce to yon r , r the payment of fuch money I—The demand for 1;16 money bad previoally been made by Lord Mel ville to myfelf. Verbally, or in writing I—Verbally, Did ycra keep any account of the fume pair to Mr. Tweedy, in eonfequence of fuch verbal demands of Lord Melville? I entered them in the accounts which I kept with his Lordlhip. Are they in ezillence? I have already Mentioned, that I had not thought it neeetiary to preferve any ae6ounts between Lird Melville and myfelf, a mu tunl releafe having piled between us. Do yen know the amount of any fuch fates which you may have paid Mr. Tweedy ? My recollection does rot rave me to fpecify any fact faros. Do you recollat any thing about the date of fuch payments ? I do nor. No you rezcllea what fort of films they may have been ? nnce or twice they may have amounted to be tween three or tour thoufand pounds, but not larger. To what other perfons did you make fuch payments b.:fides Mr. Tw. ely ? I do not recolleft. In ro3king inch payments to Mr. Tweedy, did you confider him as a public officer, or a private agent of Lord Nldville obeyed Lord Melville's direaions In P s * itig the money to him, without pretending to 'flier whether be was a private Aggeenatt or not. Had you any public money uraofisiooa with Mr. Tweedy officially ?—I had. Where were thofe public official tranfaaions record ed ?—ln the Navy Pay Office. Are the payments of Mr. Tweedy, by Lord Mel ville's verbal order, recorded there elf* ?—They are not in any inllance, etc. ite. The remainder of this day's ex.-mination relates to the re-payment of the 40,c001. Mr. T. lays, that Lord M. had paid him intereli for money, but not for the fums advanced to Mr. Tweedy. What may have been the total amount of money, 2.fetibed to he advanced at different times to Mr. T. -etly by order of Lord Melville, as nearly as yon c in recolleCt I—The total amount of monies of this rcription, to the belt of my recolleaion, has rev:r, in the whole, exceeded 30,c001. until the four 40bCC01. was added to it I bet I cannot *ate with ; • certainty that the whole of the fonts contlittninithat 30,c , 001. was advanced to Mr. Tweedy. To whom was any part of the 30,0001. advanced, wh;ch was not paid to Mr. Tweedy ?—I have already Rated, hit Ido not recollect. ithin what period of time did there itihes take place mean to comprehend the whole time daring which I ailed as Paymalier under Lord Melville, for 14 or 15 years. Why did you deflroy papers in which other per- Cons accounts were kept, as well as Lord Melville's ? Becaufe the whole of my accounts were clofed upon my leaving London, excepting Tome private family concerns, and very fmall accountsbetween my friends and myfelf, which I carried forward into new books. I defire to (late to my former anfwer, that to,oool. °Cabe 30,0001. had accrued before I was appointed to my office. • By whom was the to,oool. advanced ?—I do not /now. • How did you know the exitlence of fuch a debt ? My Lord Melville's a c k now l e d gment to me. To whom did he acknowledge himfelf debtcr ? To the office. Of bow long flooding had that debt been ?—I have no knowledge of the circtimfiance. To whom was the to,oool. repaid ?—lt mnft have been repaid to me. In what capacity did you receive that fum that you had never advanced ? In capacity of Paymaller. Did you then conceive it to be a debt due to the public ?—I did. Was any intereft paid upon it ?—None. Had not Lord Melville made fuch acknowledg ment, could you have traced fuch a debt due from him to the public, in any of the office books? I could certainly have told that the balance of the account put under my charge was fo much deficient. Was Lord Melville debited for fuch fum in any of the books ?—He was not. What was the nature of the acknowledgment of Lord Melville ?—Merely verbal, &c. &c. The further examination of ALRIANDER Thorrzz, Bfq. mien on the 411, of May, tilos. Of the fums you have advanced from time to time to Lord Melville, not exceeding the 20,0001. as men tioned yeflerday, do you know whether any part of it was applied to any public purpofe ?—I do not, but I beg to be underflood, that this fum which I have mentioned yeflerday, is not conneEted with the fums which I mentioned before the Commiflioners of Naval Inquiry to have been occafionally advance to Lord Melville, and for which I accounted his Lordfhip lily private debtor, Btc. [Here follow fcveral queftions and anfwers of in ferior importance.] There is a certain rum mentioned in r 35th page of the Tenth Depart of the Commitlioners of Naval In quiry, of the fum of 55631. fis. rid. which was paid Into Lord Melville's own hands in May or June 1800,. which was the balance of Lord Melville's firit Trea furcrfhip, ending in 1783 ; do you know where that Turn now is ?—I do not, any further than I have heard Lord Melville, within there three weeks or a month Ay, that he meant to pay it immediately into the ' Exchequer. From the (late of the accounts of Lord Melville's firft Treafurerfhio,could thzt balance have been earlier paid into the Exchequer ?—I apprehend not until within thefe three or four months, until wi,ich time, that account of his Lordfilip had not oten delivered to the Auditorr. Upon what does that depend, the delivery to tilt. Auditor ?—The final arrangement of the account, in the minute manner in which I have endeavoured to defcribe, in which the whole payments made in the treafurerfhip are brought to agree in the account of the fums as certified to the fcveral Boards, with the account made up in a different form and delivered to the Auditors. Whether any of the payments which yon had made to Mr. Tweedy, by Lord Melvilles direeltuo, ha I any relation to thofe circumlLtnces which Lord Melville had confidentially communicated to you, and which you did not deem yourfelf at liberty to relate, as mentioned in page aos in the Tenth Report ?—I had no fuch allufion. [The Witnefs defires to amend his evidence of yef terday, as to fums advanced to other perfons befides Mr. Tweedy ; fee page 19, 3d Moy— —ln looking at my Banker's book, I find that I have occalinnally made payments into the houfes of Meffrs Drum mond and Melfrs. Coints, and to my Lord Melville's secretary, Mr. Alves, and other members of his Lordfilip's family.] Do you mean to fry that all there payments, added to the pa meats made to Mr. Tweedy, do not exceed in the whole, and during the whole time of your aft big as Paymafter to Lord Melville, the fum of zo,oool. ?—Upon a further confiieration of the turns which I (Wed yeQerday, I lhould with to add to that fum two or three thoufand pounds. When did your private agency begin with Lord Melville I—l do not recolka ; I had no regular ap pointment as private agent. Were any aes of private agency performed by you for L'rd Melville, previous to your appointment as Paymafter the Navy ?—Not any . When did the private agency ceafe ?—lt has not ceafed. 11 t• c you performed any a/I of private agency fince the ~ xecution of the releafes in 1803 ?—I have. What do you mean by members of Lord Melville's family ?—1 mean his domeflic fervants. witnef withes to amend his anfwer of yeller day, in p. 20, 3d Ma y— have already amended my evidence nt yetterday, fn far as to fay, that I had made advances for Lord Melville to others betides Mr. Tweedy ; and I have now further to amend my anfwer of yellerday, by raying, that fome of thofe advances made to others than Mr. Tweedy, but con /timing the fum, as I faid yellerday, of 20,0001. and to which to day I have added two or three thoufand pounds, were advanced from funds exclufively of public money; and I with in this to refer to my evi dence tires before the Commillioners of Naval In. quiry, w p. 220, if an explanation to an anfwer that I then gave on that &lied, and which, as I did not recollea at that time the circumftances now menti oned, was then perfeEtly cone& ; and I mull further amend my evidence of yelterday by now laying, th st I do not think Lord Mt gave me verbal, or any intlruetions, in fome iufiances wherein I had advanced fnms of money for his Lordfhip to Mr. Tweedy.] Upon what authority then did yon make Inch ad vances I aged in thole inflames from my own judg . . ment, in the management of his Lordillip's con cerns. You had at times verbal inftrudions from Lord Melville ?—l'es, I had. Of thelurns advanced to Mr. Tweedy and others, for the ufe of Lord Melville, (fated by you ycflerday to amount to the fum of zo,oool. to which you have added a further fum of 2 or 3.0001. to day, can you now, upon recollesflinn, (late how much was public, and how much private money ?—I have no means to enable me to (late that circumflance with accuracy. Pleafe to !late it penerally ?—As nearly as I can Rate it, about one half public, and one half private. Do you mean to fay one half exclufively public ?Ido. Do you mean the other half cselulively private I mean the other half to have been prin c ipally a d. vanced from my account at the houfe of Meffrs. Coutts and Company. Of the advances from ro to to,cool. m-ntioned in the Tenth Report to have been made by you to Lord Melville at different times, have you now any means of judging what part was public and what private money ? I believe the whole to have been ad vanced from my accounts at the houfe of Meffrs. Coutts and Company. Was inteteft always paid by Lord Melville to you on thofe advances ? It was not. •Was it ever [mid ? No ; his Lnrdfh;p paid me no intereft for thole . advances, &c. &c. &c. The further Examination of ALFXANDNIt TaorrEtt, Efq. , taken th e 6th of May, 1805. Can you recoiled any thing about the repayment of the fpeeific rum of 10,0001. which, at your com mencing Paymafter, Lord Melville acknowledged to you that he owed to the Public do not. What rums did you annually receive, as my Lord Melville's private Agent, from other foorces, raving thofe of his falary as Treafurer of the Navy ?—I do not recoiled any regular annual payments made to me upon his Lordllip's account, although I have re ceived confiderable turns, and in many inflances, &c. How did Lord Melville defcribe to you that he had become poffeffed of the zo,oool. which he then de fcribed himfelf to owe to the Navy Pay Office ?—I do not remember that his Lordthip explained him felf to me upon that fubjed. Had you any means of knowing whether that had been applied to a public or a private purpofe ?—I had not, further than his Lordfhip having expreffed his apprehenlione that it might ultimately be preju dicial to his intereft. In what manner ?—He did not enter further in ex• planation with me on the ftiojeet. When you defcribed this fum of to, oool . to make part of a fum of 30,0c01. which had been advanced to Mr. Tweedy for the ufe of Lord Melville, did yon mean that you had been informed by Mr. Tweedy of this fum being fo applied ; or was it from Lord Melville only that you derived any knowled7e of this fum of fo,oool. ?—it was born Lord Melville only that I had any infotmstion upon the fobjed of this to,oool. ; and if I have conveyed, by my former evidence, the idea that this fum of money bad been advanced to Lord Melville through the means of Mr. Tweedy, I mull beg to correel that ftatement. Has that to,oool. been repaid ?—That to,oool. as well as every other rum for v:hich Lord Melville has been indebted to the Public as Treafiirer of the Navy, and which has accrned fince the year 1786, when I was arpointed Paymafler, has been repaid. IL'e exa::nnaon rf nsit laovrrea, Ffq. titi..n the 7,b of Ain', iBos. Can yon give to the Committee any more precire explanation of the converfation which yon related yellerday to have taken place between you and Lord Melville at the time he acknowledged his debt of to,oool. to the public, when you commenced Pay mailer, or can you now recolleCt with nacre precifion what the words were ufed by Lord Melville am lorry, from the dillance of time when that converfa lion took place, that I have it not in my power to give any further explanation upon that lubjed. Pleafe to repeat his words, as near as you can re colle&, that you before mentioned Lordthip ' expreffed his a pprehenflons that the circu alliance al luded to might ultimately prove prejudicial to him, and which I concluded to be meant in a pecuniary light. What circumftance ?—The circumftance of the ba lance put under my charge being abort to,oool. lefs ' than the balance for which he was accountable to the public, &c. &c. /gain— What was the largeft fum you ever had in your hands of the private account of Lord Melville at one time ?—That appears perfeftly impollible for me to afccrtain, as his private t:Anfaetions paffed through an account current in which his Lordfhip was gene- rally indebted to me ; but at other times the balance was in favour of his Lordfhip.when I neither charged intereft upon any balance due by his Lordihip, nor did I charge myfelf with any iutereft at times when the balance may have been in his Lord'hip's favour. Do you recollea the largefl balance in the account current that ever appeared in favour of Lord Mel ville ?—ln an account comprehending fo long a pe riod, it is very : ylifficult for me to give an accurate anfwer to that queltion ; but it certainly has at tome time been as large as between aocol. or 30001. in Lord Melville's favour. Do you recalled the largelt balance in the account current that ever appeared in your favour, with the fame degree of accuracy ?—I eo not recoiled with the fame degree of accuracy, but I have upem a for mer occafion declared it had never exceeded from to to 20,0001. Do you now allude to the fume mentioned in your evidence before the Commiffioners of Naval Inquiry, to have been advanced by you occafionally to Lord Melville, to the (urns mentioned by you in your evi dence before this Committee to have been gdvanced to Lord Melville through the hands of Mr. Tweedy, Meas. Drummond, and others, or to any other furns? —I allude to the fums which 1 had occafinnally ad• vanced to Lord Melville, as Rated in the Tenth Re port ; but fome of thole occafional advances may have been made through the hands of Mr. Tweedy, Meffrs. Drummond, or others. Are the Committee Rill to underhand that you mean the advances of from to to 20,3301. as men tioned in the Tenth Report, to be cliflina and diffe rent from the advances of a3,occl. mad: by you in the whole, as Rated by you in evidence before this Committee ?—They are Rill to under hand 11. Did there different advances all pats through your account current with Lord Melville :—They did ne,t. , . . r. r• • • Dillingnitii which did and which did nott—l can. not'do :t from memory. • Have you any documents to refer to 7_..1 have al ready laid that I have none, and in/ regret for that eircomtlance: • Why was tame of the advances p!aced hi the le• count current, and others not ?—I only placed the fums in the account current of which I knew of the appropriation; of the appropriation of the other fums I was ignorant. • Do you mean by appropriation, this you had the payment of filch fums on behalf of L.-td Melville ?" —With regard to the account current, I do. Yon have Bated to the Committee, is a former part of your evidence, that you eu receive intereß on fome advances made to Lord :vielvitie, on ethers none ; you have to-day flared, that in the account current you had neither charged intereft to Lord Melville, when the balance in mat account aopea•ed in your favour, nor paid it when it appe tied it , fa vour rf his Lordthip ; on what advances then did y charge interett alluded to a film of money 'sill a his Lordlhip direeed me to borrow, and for which • his Lordlhip paid a regular interell of 51. per cent. The further Examination of ALEX. TROf TER, El;r, tarn the 911., of May, ifics. Were you the lender of the money borrowed for Lord Melville, and for which he paid an interett I was. What was the amount ?—My recolleSion does nit enable me to Bate this with accuracy ; but I believe, to the belt of my knowledge, that it was a fum not exceeding from 20 CO 23,0001. Is that fum repaid ?—lt is. How long fince ?—Four or five years, etc. &c. The Exam;nation of the kis& Honcuralle WILLIAM Pirr, taken on the Gib of Moy, 1505. Do you know of any ittttance of money , Med for Naval Service, applied t o p urpo f es not Naval know of one fuch Have the goodnefs to Itat it ?—lt was an advance made from Naval money, in the courfe of the year 1796 ; I think late in the fummer or in the autumn 1796 ; I am net able to afcertain the precife time : it was made to the hour: of Meths. Boyd and Zen field, who were then contractors for two leans for Government; the advance was the fum of 40, - ,0r.:!. It was made in confequence of a reprefentation that. from the difficulty which exiiled at that time in ob taining advances, even on good teeinity, they were tinder fuch pecuniary embstraffments as won't'? pre. vent their making good an inlt a l ment d ue to Grv:re ment. Unqueftionable fecuri,ies were given for the repayment of the advance, and under th.:fe circum , ftances, knowing no other way at the time by whicht filch ferious mitchief to the public fervice could be prevented, and um - let - Banding that the Naval Service was not likely to fuller arty Inconvenience from this advance, I concurred in opinion with the Treafarer of the Navy, th , t it was advifeable to make it. f Inuit beg the Committe e to un d et ft an d t h at I can only Bate the general Inbliance of the tranfaa4ion to the belt of my recollection, not being able precifely to recal all particulars at this dittanee of time. To whom was the pecuniary embarratrments of the houfe of Boyd and Bonfield made known ? To myfclf and Lord Melviik. At the fame time ?—Whether fepaitarel r or jointly. I cannot undertake to fay,but I rather bell .vetwr h wars. With whom did the propofitiun for ti,e relief of the houte of Boyd and Beads!, by the mean) which were afterwards retorted to, originate 4111 V•llti t the !linen= of the means melt have originc:4 with the Treafurer of the nvy. Did the Treafurer of the N ivy late-in what mm ner he meant to obtain the money do not recol lea that he did s but I nodes flood fenefally, the it was money which could, in his opinion, be rinteed I.kr a time, without inconvenience, provictest there w.ta fufficient fecurity for its repayment. Do you know, in point of Gat, how it was obtain ed ?—I do not, from tby own knowledge. Did you inquire into the nature of the fccur;ties that were taken, or their amount ?--I was ftt;stie t at the time that the tecurities offered were !itch .t, might be depended upon. and I think 1 underfll them to coniitt either of Navy Bills or of Bill, w!ti had been accepted by the Raft India Company, whi ft were to fall due at fitccellive periods ; but I do n.rt recolleft having myfelf feen the tecurities. Did you conceive the trantattian to be irregul t•• and illegal certainly confide.ed it as ttrtgit tr I do not know it occurred to me at the time it wa pofitively illegal ; but I have no Oifficalty in favii,, s that T was to Ilrongly imprefted with the belief of its' importance and urgent necetlity, ith a tie ,v t‘i fential public interetts, that I :hook have thouglo .t my duty to incur the rilk of commit; ing an it re;:il and illegal aft, rather than expofe the p:iblic to ; mifchiet which I thought would others% ile I have arifen. Did you make any memorandum in writing of die trananion, or any part of it ?—No, I did ntit. Did you take any Reps towards obtaining an in demnity of loch an irregularity, committed with your knowledge and concurrence ?-Isin. I did not ; I conceive that it was impolEble for me to have done fo, without difciciing circumflances which mill have been highly injurious to the mercantile Itocile con cerned, and might have in a great meal - tire tern'td to counterati the colljeds of tit: public fervice which I had in view. When Nth delicacy as to the difclofure of the treat allion had ceafed, did you take any filch Ileps have never hitherto ta':en fuel* daps ; the delicacy at• tending fuch difclofure could never, l c.,nct ;ye. he confidered as having.realed, t'll after the houfe in queflion became bankrupt. When did that happen ?—I rally do not reecllca, hut it was a confderable time, I believe three or four years after the tranfaelion ; and I confefs the neceSty of applying for indemnity did not then prefent itleff to my mind, &c. &c. Do you know of any other advances of money iffued for Navy Serv:ces to pisrpofes not Naval, at any time, nr nt any &fails:km ?—No, I do 'lot know of any fuch advances. fu,..:4rr t x.p:thla:icia cf t. 3! FirSt Hot. JVictrAry ATT, totem /e 7/.4 Of nay. I Was any intere(l paid by Hairs. Boyd upon the loan of 43,0001. ?—I do not knew that there was. Why was it not paid ?—No demand was made. Do you recoiled any other loitance .4 public money advanced to commercial perlons in which intereft WPC not demanded ? I do not ieculled any fitn, iar inftance cf fuch an advance. [lira ova. 11111111