Star. — London, England, 1818-03-12 00:00:00

an ther case since, where 100 witnesses had sworn ac.:•s- the lives of the prisoners, and afterwards went t heir homes without the least molestation. At p r be, also, there were witnesses to the amount of ei h u ndreds, of whom 30 or 40 were examined, s ' e rno danger had resulted to them. It was in vain thei to say, that because an imaginary danger was contemplation, a Bill ought to . be passed, setting N ile all laws, and holding out indemnity to all de pions of rersons. It t en rested on the Gentle • isite to shew what made it now, for the first ;, °l : l n i possiihle for honest men, who had only dis- Lared their duty , t o p roduce their names, without leer of their lives ? Much stress had been laid on le question, why what was asset - fed to be known of • ',duct of Oliver at the opening of the last Ses sionchad been kept back He would give an an to this, that would set the matter at rest.— within the last three or four weeks that I t was only it became sale for people to tell these stories. Until ithin this time, the Habeas Corpus Act was sus pea 1.,1. and persons who h ad presumed to speak such a subject might have been committed to ,:on for an indefinite length of time ; while those : e made themselves the enemies of Mr. Oliver, exactly those persons who were apprehended.— ii . .!at did it signify whether it was on Oliver s oath • •ct, as long as it was known that he was in close e munication with his Majesty's Government, and el Familiar in the Office of the Right Hon. ree'„nnan opposite? It should be recollected that last Report it was not known but what it was single oath that had been the cause of all the . 7.:itments that had taken place from the country. then, were the people to put themselves in the ;elm of being ruined and destroyed by this mis ceelis hreath passing over them, and polluting the ear cf the Noble Secretary of State? This was no i mag inary case, hut one that had already occurred in a. It was the case of Scholes, which had already ae before the House. He was exactly in the same ;tuition, and had suffered because he had threatened expose Oliver. For this he was arrested, impri ted, and irretrievably ruined, in health and circum alias, as appeared by most respectable testimony ; ad all because he was too indignant to exercise pre ietion towards Oliver, and even presumed to .neaten him. In 48 hours afterwards he was taken cm his home and thrown into a prison. Was this °thing to such men as might know the part that I:iver took at the Horse Guards ? The honest, though cable individuals, who could have given this infor m knew that the fate,of Scholes awaited them if had done so. Respecting the Petitions, he would allude to that of Ward ; he was certainly a dis person, but the statements of persons con d to die were credited by the Noble Lord Ward ; yet if they made such a declaration , a hope of pardon, how much less right had we refuse to believe the dying declarations of others, • moment of execution, when they knew they Juld avail themselves nothing by their assevera- But they were not to be believed, because ,v were convicted traitors, though their declara a traced to Oliver the plan that had caused them suffer death ? The Petitions, therefore, ought not be ail condemned, as unauthenticated and un 'rely of credit. He therefore wished for a Cora -nquire into the truth of them ; though an k Member called on the House, 4.p the :rush and justice, to withhold all such in. iy which mode alone the truth could be It was such persons, and ttot he, who stig -11 Committees of that House. We had got :h of saying, that any man who was unfor id became a Petitioner to that House, must ipostor ; therefore though they were bound willing ear to Petitions, they turned a deaf tern, crying oat, pharisaically, we are the wives of the people—we open our doors itions and complaints—but we shall meet It the assertion, that Ward was a bad man, Core your Petitions must be false and shall timed to. This was not the way to shew House willingly stood between'the Members Constituents, to lean against power, and temselves the protectors of people—(hear, tr.) His Honourable Friend (Mr. Lambe) led that sedition and disaffection were ever whatever might be the prosperity of the . He had said it existed in all the manufac districts. But what would the Honourable men who represent the manufacturing coun to this sweeping charge against them ? This most foul and wanton charge against all the Lamers, who were represented as a set of men Jm no Government could confide, and that is a treasonable spirit not confined to the men places—(hear, hear)—So these two millions :cts were always to be an object of jealousy , ernmeat, v:ho are to consider them, as regards legiante. as rotten at the core ! The Honour intleman's speech proved too much ; it proved had outlived the good times of our loyalty, toad of the Indemnity Act, he ought to pro le continuance of the Suspension Act. He el the House to :effect before they vc,ted, to ind of persons they were holding out protec t was to informers and spies, who were even with his Honourable Friend's contempt— hear).--In answer to what had fallen on a night from an Honourable Member (Mr. intlel, who had spoken of his own consistency, defeaded himself on the authority of Mr. ihy, he begged leave, in justice to the memory lamented friend, to state, that although Mr. by had agreed with the Committee, he totally :ea from the subsequent measures. Mr. Pon was a strenuces defender of the Constitution, itevalue teo ;yell to destroy by his vote the • of Isis cotintry—/Loud cheers)—every time' se Ministers might think proper to raise the of alarm, or afterwards justify their acts, when packed Committee could be found to sanction 7 ' ,. nduct—(Laud cries of hear, hear, hear) — by the sheet anchor of the State, and the •torm . y the period, the greater seemed to him issei: of holding by it I—(llear, C , ) ,, titittion a l lawyer of the old school, and on ind.T.ei. of constitutional policy his wi s d om vn -hale his elequence roused the Iloitse.- 4„. , held by the maxim, that it was a, on iit those who affected to hold genuine intuciple.;. to abandon, on the slightest ap ac of danger, the security of the Constitution cf the ("Town and t'ae madness of the peopie.(hear.)--His langlige vras ever, tt and oh !' exclaimed Mr. Brougham, " that he wee here to ring it in the ears of the Honourable Gentleman 1" his language was—" Let us preserve the Constitu tion and we shall fear neither confusion from abroad nor corruption within, nor the power of the Crown," which he dreaded more than all. The Hon. Mem- ber then adverting to the high station acquired by this country by her free form of Government, added, that if the new doctrine of confidence broached that night were to be carried into e ff ect, it mattered little who bore office, or who wanted it, it was of little im- portance what might be the forms of the Constitu tion, the substance of the thing was gone, and with it the liberty of the country must be - lost for ever.— (Loud Chirring.) Mr. LAMBE - said there had been one misrepre-' sentation of his Learned and Honourable Friend, so totally unfounded and so foul, that it was impossible he could suffer it to pass, He had said that he (Mr. Lambe) had made a charge of foul disloyalty against, two millions of people. He was sure he had not meant to say any such thing, and he thought it was impossible the Honourable and Learned Gentleman could have so expressed himself, if he had listened to him fairly and candidly. He had said that a certain number of agitators still existed in the manufacturing districts : but he believed with the Reports, that these two millions of persons who resided in them were sound, and loyally disposed. Mr. CANNING said, that if he were to agree to the doctrine laid down, that the interference of Mi- nisters had been utterly unnecessary, he might ab stain from troubling the House. But if at this late period of the debate there were to be any indisposi don on the part of Ministers to take part in it, it might be imputed to them, that they shrunk from the question. It had been admitted, that the attack ing party should take the widest possible range, and call in all their auxiliaries to their aid ; but those who were on their , defence must stick to the point.— But how could any man argue on the Indemnity Bill, without reference to the measures on which it was founded ? He would not say that the Indemnity Bill was the necessary consequence of the Suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act, though of all men the Honourable Gentleman who spoke last was the last person who ought to avail himself of this point ; for that Honourable and Learned Gentleman having last year been defeated in two opportunities of pre venting the Suspension, consoled himself on the pro spective opposition he should make to the Bill of In demnity. In his mind, therefore, it was connected with the Suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act. The necessity, however, of a Bill of Indemnity, grew out of the circumstances of the country, in which neces sity the Suspension Act originated. This state of the country rendered it necessary for those who acted under the Government, if they meant to do their duty, to outstrip the limits of the law. The same state of things that produced this necessity, induced the House to make a temporary sacrifice of that por tion of our liberties, and out of these circumstances had grown the necessity of indemnifying them for' the acts they had committed, and of which they could not make a full justification, without an expo sure of the evidence that had been laid before them ; that was, to indemnify them for having committed' acts beyond the law, and to dispense with the neces sity of their justifying acts in themselves legal, but legally not provable, except by evidence that could not be disclosed. It was therefore incorrect to say, that the Indemnity Bill was a consequence of the Suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman proceeded to argue, that the House would have been unjust if they had not taken into their contemplation the probability of. a Bill of Indemnity being required ; otherwise Minis ters would have been placed in a situation of doing acts for which they could not produce a perfect de fence. The question now was, whether a Bill of In demnity from the Lords should be accepted? and he would agree that if a case was not made out for it, the reason must be, the abuse of the powers confided to them, and which would be a just ground for re fusing it. If those who opposed the measure would look fairly at the question, they must see, that if the existing laws had been adequate to check the disturb ances of the country, it was not now, but last year, that they should have refused to grant the Suspension Act, and then the present Bill would not have been required. The very nature of the measure was, to ena ble Government to detain specifically any suspected persons, with= bringing them to trial—(hear, hear). Honourable Gentlemen had denied the force of pre cedents, and he was far from saying that there existed a precedent corresponding in all its parts with that which Parliament had sanctioned. But if they looked backward, and saw the seeds of such a measure, they had a right to infer the necessity ofadapting them to any future exigency. They must agree that the first year of King William was as whiggish a year as could be found in our history ; and in that year a message came down to the House, 'staring reports of private meetings for the purpose of as iisting King James, and adding that his Majesty had caused per sons to be apprehended and confined, but was un illing to detain them, in case he should do any thing contrary to the law. This pointed directly to the case. The Whigs of 1688 sanctioned the acts com mitted by the Whig King ; and on these grounds if Ministers had abused the powers which this pre cedent 'furnished them with, far be it from him to say, that they ought not to be called to account. — Now, as to the Petitions, it was considered by the Learned Gentleman, that they had not examined them specifically, and he held this out as a proof of the disregard of Parliament for the rights of the peo ple. But let any man look back to these Petitions, and examine how far they were borne out by facts.— Was every man who had been let loose to be allowed to come to the bar and say he had been most cruelly treated, and was the most innocent of mankind, and that his merits alone had pointed him out for perse cution ? There were Petitions of every class, and many which imputed all that had passed to Oliver. Ile mast givc the Gentlemen opposite credit for lately dep!oring the situation of that wick !d instigator of murder Ward, though they now found it convenient to give him up—(hear, hear.)—For this mar. the tears and commiseration of that House had been invoked, till it was hinted that their compassion was solicited for an assassin and an instigator of murder. Next the revered Ogden was held up, for all the sympathy that silver-haired age and deep infirmity were entitled to ; and great stress was laid on that description of • . shocking opontion by which his bowels were eerie- that if A Mitt hitt intorntidem to Gotertirtieitt, it ted. But what Was the plain strory ? Why, that might be credited C first time t but if the informer, he had laboured under this disease lot many years, at the recommendation of Goteniment, should pros and he thought roper to take the advantage of ceed•to gaia) fresh information, the second fact would . . ming cured gratis, while he expressed the great be good for nothing, because his relation of one cif% deligit that the operation afforded him_(hear.)— cumstance must necessarily disqualify him from re , This might be a very proper case for the considers- sating any more. According to this new creed, terice tion of the Rupture Society, but he could not see ar, informer was once a spy, or perhaps the Honours what Parliament had to do with it. But the Gentle- able Gentleman had in his mind some analogy to the men opposite had thought it necessary to bolster up nature of the bee. The bee, it was 'said, could pro- Ward's case with this gratuitous case of surgery, and duce but one sting, anrae in vulnere ponit. So then throwing in a cart load of other petitions, asser- the informer, it was in ferred, could make but one ted that the House had not examined enough. Why, information, and all his power of observation, all his it was only because they were convinced of the gross faculty of seeing and hearing, became immediately fraud and delulion that had been attempted to be extinguished-_(a laugh.)—An Honourable Gentle" practised on them, and if they had turned round to man had, on a former occasion, quoted pi:day on the examination, they would have lived to repent the the subject, and had been pleased to refer to the int" day, and would not only have had the consolation of mortal batd (Shakspeare) for authority. Certainly being pitied, but the aggravation of being laughed he could not go to a better source ; but if be had at for fools. There was another case which was in- carried his researches into that author a little further, tended to connect Government with the spies. A he might have found -a description of an informer, man named Dewhurst was seen in a gig of Sir which seemed to tally exactly with his own beau ideal John Byng. He would admit that the assertion was of such a character. He alluded to that informer who retracted afterwards ; but no matter—only give the eso dull, so dead in look, 110 w one, I Gentlemen opposite sufficient time, and they would " Woke Priam's curtain in the dead of night: "And mould have told him, half his Troy was burned, (a lase.) retract all the rest that they had made. Half of those they had already made had gone off by their own "hat Priam found the fire, eve he his tongtie." (A loud laugh.) confessions, and it did seem a little whimsical that He did not know whether it might be imputed to his Government was to take the other half of these own obtuseness of wit or hardness of heart, but he fabrications for granted. But then came the two must say, that if Priam had detained that pale, wo ' convincing refutations front Sir John Byng himself. be g one man, and instead of en q uirin g about the fire, i ` ')Where had no gig. And, yet from these two non- here was no such man as Dewhurst, and he (Sir J. hit questioned him about his birth, parentage, and education-OmA laughter)—he, for one, though he ; ;entities was made out a proof of a connection between might be forced to applaud the judiciousness of such Government and the Spies. He believed it was in a proceeding, should have felt much less commise ; the time of Mr. Fox, when Geography was not sp ration for the fate of that venerabk Monarch than he well understood by foreigners as it was at present, did at present—(mmi: laughter.) The Hon. Member for, Bramber, whom he saw just returning to his that one of them believed there was a roundabout way 'of getting to England from the Continent by place, might perhaps think he..was treating this ques land • and another has asked whether he could not don with too much levity i but he would beg that go fr om Siciae to England in the same manner?— Honourable Gentleman to consider again, whether Being answered in the negative, he expressed his sur- his (Mr. Canning's) notion of spies and informers was prise,' as- Sicily *as an island as well as England.— not at least the most practically correct. That Ho. So, if there had been Dewhurst without the gig, or nourable Gentleman, among his many virtues, had the gig without Dewhurst, they could not have been one quality which might be considered a defect ; he w brought together ; but there being no gig and no was apt to think every man as good and as honest Dewhurst, placed the accusers of Government in a as himself; still, he was sure that Honourable Gen still greater dilemma to prove the connection. The tleman had lived long enough tb have found by ex. Right Hon. Gentleman then adverted to the attempts perience, that the world cannot be governed on any that had been made to chew that Oliver had been theoretical notions of purity. He must have felt too, that as it was the sweetest reward of virtue, to sent from London as a delegate, and repeated that it was Mitchell who was the London delegate have a perfect confidence in all around it, so it was 'had taken Oliver with him. But Oliver, and being who once the greatest curse of crime that it could not trust even its dearest associates—to take away, therefore, introduced as a delegate, was obliged to pass as one, from crime, its penal-terror c 4 being betrayed by its for it would have cost him his life to disavow it.— Again, the speech ascribed to Oliver by Mitchell was intimates, and to communicate to it the best privilege -true as it related to Mitchell, but false as to Oliver. of virtue; it was making virtue the prey of crime. The Right Hon.. the 70,000 men, and contended Gentleman then went over the An Hon. and Learned Gentleman (Mr. Brougham) grounds respecting had animadverted severely on an Hon. Friend (Mr. that all that had been said on this subject came from Lamb) below him, for not keeping strictly to the hare Mitchell, and not from Oliver. Then there was a question of indemnity ; and yet the Learned Gentle story of a Gentleman to whom Oliver gave inforrea- man himself, like all who preceded him, had launched don of a plan to overturn Government by physWal into a full discussion of all that had occurred during force. But what must be thought of the man who the last and present year, that could bear upon the had never uttered a word of this conspiracy till he subject, and the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had found 'that- the conspirators had turned informers ? done right in so arguing ; for there was a cenne:tien He believed that this most respectable Gentleman between the circumstances which called for the sns wished' to see the Government - overturned by pension, and those which called for the Indemnity force, and was deterred from interfering to effect it Bill. Those who voted for the Suspension might only by cowardice.—Thus were witnesses brought fairly be expected to vote for the Indemnity :• indeed, forward, blasted in character and is name.— some Hon. Gentlemen had reasonably gone, further, The Honourable Member for Durham had arrived and had argued, that though they had opposed the from a distant part of the country, to cast new light Suspension Bill, yet as that had been passed, and upon the subject, and he brought forward another therefore become the act and deed of Parliament, the respectable Gentleman, only question now was whether Ministerahatiexercised spectable newspaper, w ho would swear that he saw their powers moderately ? A vast deal had been said about the Suspension of the Habeas Corpus, Oliver rioting in the Park on the day the Prince Re- as if a blow had been struck at the liberties of the gent was assailed. After this outrage, had not an anxious inquiry been instituted—had not Magistrates whole people—(Loud cries of hear,'hear, hear.) — This was not the case. He was as much disposed as examined many witnesses upon the subject—had not the public journals been filled with particulars, which, any man to think that crisis of affairs most lament• for want of evidence, ended in nothing? It was im- able which required such an exertion .of power. Nay possible that any man could be ignorant he would go faither—he not only lamented the Sus that of the fact, an investigation was on foot ; yet this " respect- pension as a misfortune, but he charged it as a crime. But upon whom did he so charge it? Not on the able Gentleman," whose loyalty was bursting his bosom, who adored his King and country, never at- Government, who had fairly tome forward, and laid tempted to go before a Magistrate to give his impor- before Parliament the real state of the country L-not rant testimony. Why? Because it was false: or if on Parliament, who had deliberately acted upon the it were true, it only proved that he had not given Report of a Committee of the first respectability— evidence, because he loved Oliver while he was a not upon the People of England, as had been most traitor, and hates him now he is an informer (cheers). unjustly insinuated, but to whose steady loyalty the It was impossible, however, not to feel assured that utmost homage was paid—but upon those designing the whole story was a recent invention, and no man and malignant wretches Nvho attempted, out of the but an idiot or a dolt could believe a word of it— distresses of a day, to effect the desolation of thi (Much collusion ; Mr. Lambton rose)—uf course he work of ages; who looked upon the famished peasant did not mean to apply the epithets dolt and idiot to and ruined artisan, not as subjects of compassion, bur the Honourable Gentleman ; all be (Mr. Canning) as instruments of crime—( Gros of hear!) -Much hat meant to say was, that he should consider himself a often been said about the cruelty of despotism an.. dolt and an idiot if he gave the hefare-mentioned the selfishness of warriors—nay, sometimes the other statement a single moment's belief—(hear,h ear ).— side of the House had expressed its indignation at du It was said that the House would desert its duty if it language of Bonaparte, who had considered the my did not hear the evidence of all those respectable rind inhabitants of a great empire as mere raw m. anonyini ; and though the Honourable Member for terials for working out his own false glory—(hcar. Bramber (Mr. Wilberforce) had justly remarked, that All this was bad enough : but what could be said of if gone into the inquiry would be interminable ; yet those who, even without this motive, which, peril; the Honourable Member for Norwich (Mr. vv. Smith) cious as it was, had yet its dazzling charms for %%ea' had persisted in his demand, that the private _ human nature; what shall be said of those who with charac ter of Oliver should be dissected; that all the private cold calculation enter the cottage of poverty, and transactions of his life should be ripped up ; that an instead of sympathizing with the condition of the inquiry should be set on foot to ascertain whether he wretched inhabitant and his starving family, calmly hail regularly paid his tailor's bill, and of how many gauge and span his misery, not for the purpose of chips and shavings he had cheated his master, the relief, but to observe his capability of mischief; not carpenter. In short, a Chip and Shaving Committee to rescue him front ruin, but to see how tar he ' was to be appointed, with power, instead of persons, fitted to be an agent to assist in ruining his Constitte papers, and records, of sending for surveyors, buil- dun and his country ?—(/tear, hear ).—These were the men against whom the crime of intending violation ders, hatchets, planes, and carpenter's rules ; with a special appointment to inquire into the merits of to the Constitution was chargeable.—these were th three indictments, •two suits in the Court of King's men against .whom the suspension of the Habe: Bench, and a disputed award—(laughter). These Corpus was aimed ; yet these were the men who v.-e -were the matters to be referred to a Select Commit- to lie put in the judgment-seat, while Ministers v.v. tee--(hear, hear, hear). The private character of Oli- to be tried on the accusation of their evideme— ver was doubtless a point of - some importance ; but (Louricrie.; of hear, hear, hear). But the Honour no man disputed that intelligelkce respecting plots able Baronet (Sir Francis Burdett) had made, i a against the State, in nine cases out of ten, oiten must seems, a most ingenious discovery ; he h d faun arrive through polluted channels: it could only be that, as the vt hole nation were dote: mined on Parli. obtained from repentant traitors, from accomplices, mentaryiteform,Ministers had no other means of say itt or from informers ; and though there initl.t he those therm elves than by invet - .ting plots and conspiracies. whose minds were so philosophically turned , that Did the Ho:mutable llaront-i imagine that he coul, they would wish all discoveries to he . providential. persuade any one that this .... - as the real state of tan rather than employ such agents, still lie 4 a - as one rase? Did he imagine diet by arty mode of division of those who held that it was ptudent to employ ..): intiltiplicatioa ....Inch he might adopt for the pre human means to maintain human , in:Ain't - ions.— : ent:.tion c I .:is ltetin-in Petitions, whether he present An Honourable Gentleman had attempted to draw a eel then: in tens, and signed by thousands, or in rhos distinction between an informer an d a sl,v : but it sailds, aild iig.icd by tens--Did he hope I,tt he cot.l },cr.tsade the liouse, or himself, that Parliament.ty was a distinction that would nut bear examination.— this—, Itc:Orni was a iavuutite nic‘t•x:e v. it h the People For what was the state of the case? Simply tlae l,iptions of :en o pposite time, aposs cliarged their danger of the the question, the conduct c non had bee] saver to this It was oily' it became sat within this t peed:.'. and cn such a s t .*•,,t, for al v ;11,1 made tl .r: exactly };,!,it did it r 7.. c t, as bon ( ,:rmunicati ei F.l! f,; ',:roan C last F singl c,•;! . r:itment: then, N irn of Brea e.,r cf the .) imaginary c; fact. It wa wine before situation, ar to expose 0 soned, and i • szances, as and all bee: ion toi t .reaten hin f:om his ho: I :nthin to si s (Elver took; r trable indi . tion knew 'ley had dot first allude t putable pe mned to ainst War ith a hope rirell.LSe to the mom( told avail ;as. But ,y were cc a traced t surfer den „be ail CI )rthy of c! :”. to en 'ynarable if . - me of to -.Hies, by rae a:. 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