Star. — London, England, 1828-07-09 00:00:00

~_ thhe of being discharged from his Majesty's str oke. The Governor, however, commanded, and he conceived very properly, that the men who had so mis conducted themselves should serve as scavengers ; and the individuals to whom the motion of the Honourable Member had reference, finding that mutilation would not procure them their discharge, they committed a theft in the middle of the day. The House would readily see that when so immoral a feeling began in a regiment it would spread like a contagion, if strong measures were not taken to put a stop to it. The Right Hon. secretary then entered into a detail of the case, and expressed his firm conviction that the Hon. Member who had brought the subject forward would. on further inquiry, feel with himself that the conduct of General Darling was not reprehensible. The Right Honourable Secretary then referred to the Australian newspapers, and showed that the death of one of the convicts was not the consequence of his punishment. He spoke in high terms of the general character of the .57th regiment. Sir C. COLE bore testimony to the high character of General Darling. He bad known that Officer for thirty years, and so high was his opinion of him, that he was gratified by the readiness with which the Right Hon. Secretary for the Colonies had acceded to the motion. After a few remarks from Mr. Hums, Mr. M. Firma'Atm, and Mr. STUART. the motion was agreed to. Mr. BROW N LOW übtaiued'kave to bring in a Bill respecting the General Drainage of Ireland. Mr. SU G DEN obtained leave to ►ring in a Bill to Amend the Law respecting Illusory Appointments. ALLOWANCES AND PENSIONS BILL. On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, the House resolved itself Into a Committee of the whole House, upon the Superannuation Allowances and Retirement Pensions Bill. ThesCHANCEL of the EXCHEQUER then 111/1 rose in discharge of h ty, to submit a motion to the Committee. He shim d certatuly have felt much more gratification hid be not been called upon to make that niotiotiurititthe report of the Finance Committee should have been laid on the table ot the •Hcuse. But the measure he was ut to propose had been recom mended unanimously'by the Finance Committee : which consideration, added to the late perioclof the Session, and the very spare attendance of Honourable Members, left him no alternative. He should be very brief in the obsesvations with which it was his intentoo t i • preface his ,motion for leave to bring , in the Bill, as, should his motionTbe agteed to, it was 'his intention to put the House into full possession of the provisions of his proposed Bill on the second reading, when it might un dergo a thorough discussion. The proposed Bill related solely to civil superannuation;, and to the retiring pen sions of cur Foreign Nlinisteis. In the course of the in qohy id which the ;Finance Committee had been en-, gaged; that Committee could not fail to be struck with the enormous charge on the.couotry for ineffective ser vices. The whole sum requited for the maintenance' of all the elfective and actual branches of the public Arlie; was about 21,000,00 W. while the rensuneraiils of pa4t dervices imposed on the country a charge ameblatieg to nearly 5.500,00 Pi. or more than one four Of that required for existing arid effective ser-' irieosiositHear, hear). That circumstance was, however. this accessary consequence of the long war in which se had been engaged, acid the splendid services which bad been rendered to the country—indeed, it might be viewed as a grand and striking record of our glory — at the same time, he must say, and he was sure the Committee would concur with him, that in the present . -situation of the country, it was most desirable that its burdens should as much as possible be reduced— (Hear, hear).. The gross amount of those charges he had already stated ; the civil superannuations comprised its it amounted to nearly 500,0001. per annum. It ap peared from returns enacted to the Report, that in the year 1822, the civil superannuatious amounted to 340,0001.—they were now little short of 500,0001.—50 that in six years there had been an increase of nearly one half—and, although it was, only justice to observe, that a great portion of that increase had been conse quent upon the reduction of officers for whom it had beta of course necessary to make some provisioo, still the subject of superarinuations was one of great im portance, and one requiriag.the serious consideration of Parliament—(Hear). It would be in the recollection of the Committee, that in the year 1821, that subject had attracted the attention of Parliament. At that period ;there was laid before the House the result of an inquiry, upon which was founded a regulated general scale oi, salakies. It was about that same pet iwd,1822, determined, ;that from the remuneration paid to individuals for their services, there should be made an annual deduction or edetethinion, ter the purpose ot homing a fund out of which to pay be superannuations, and an Act to au -tootle and enforce soch deductions was passed. In two years afterwards, howevet, in consideration of the im proved circumstances of the country, and of the nume rous applications to Parliament from various quarters, eolaining of the severity of the measure, Parliamen: resolved to repeal the Act of 1822, and it was accord ingly repealed; and the de. uctions-which had under its provisions been made had been ever since discontinued. Plaviagithese facts before them, the Finance Commit tee thought that one of two things ought to be done— namely, either to limit the amounts if the salaries to an equivalent for Vie set vices performed, or by adopting • the principle of the Act of 1822, to compel the party receiving a salary to provide for his superannuation. 'the latter was deemed the most advisable, and it would be found embodied in his proposed Bill. It would be more beneficial to the individual himself, as it insured to him protection agaia,t the consequences of his own heedlessness or extravagance—(Hear): On that part of the subject he begged leave to state, that it was not iatended that the superannuation; should be in propor tion to the salary of the party at the time of his super annuation, unless he should have held the office to which it was attached for a certain number of years. Such was the proposed arrangement as respected those who already held office. -With reference to those who were hereafter to be employee, the Finance Committee recommended that every pet ton who should in future be appointed, should, on his entering upon office, be bound - to submit to certain deductions from his salary, for the purpose of providing a superannuation fond.— That was net a novel system, for he knew that in the island of Ceylon it had been put into operation, and had been totind to work well for a great length of time. So much, therefore, as respected superannuations. The other part of the Bill wield relate to the rot ring pen sions of our Foreign Al misters. tinder the Act ot 1810, it was provided that narissolivolual should be entitled to a passion until he had served ten years; but that Act also gated that it should apply favourably where ten • years had elapsed front the date i l the commission, pro vided that the individual should have been for three Teen engaged in active service. it appeared that under t-ist Act the pensions to Foreign Meows bad grown to the great amount of 60,0001. Under these cities teepees it had been deemed advisable to make as Dew noreogernent, and, in the gist place, the Finance Coe melee tecommeaded (avid the Bill would-en:braes that v.:commendation) that these pensions should be afiowed to drop to 440001. a yeas. a*d that at so future peeled should they esceed that amount; and farther, that no Foreign Minilt,er should bs • entitled to his fs. tiring pension un,til he Lad WWI. fifteen years ; also, that no Ambassador shoeld be called to receive' (OW a year, unless he should have served as an Am bassador for two years. Such were , the provisions of the Bill he should, with the leave of the House, have the honour to introduce; and in moving for it he was fully aware of the extent of the objections raised against it. He had known in the course of a pretty lung official life the value of the services of the individuals who would be affected by the first part of the Bill, and however much he felt compelled to propose the mea sure by the Report cf the Finance Committee, be could not do so wkhout regretting the necessity which had called upon him to prirform that duty. The Right Hon. G:ntlerian concluded by moving, that the Chairman be directed to apply for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the Acts relating to Superannuations, Pensions, and Allowances. Mr. HUME concurred in the report as open to fewer obj, ctions than any other, thou-gli 'fie wished the Biil went farther than the gradual plan of reduction pro posed. The orieinal Surrannuttion Act aught not to have been repealed. The restriction relative to the time of service by Foreign Ministers was most necessary and judici'.us. He quite agreed in the proposed measu.e. It would be desirable to introduce some alteration into the system of promotion in the army and navy. The cont:uct cf the officer at the head of the artillery was most laudable, in bringing so many officers from halt pay to full pay, and thereby reducing the dead weight. There should be some limit fixed by Parliament nn the amount of the fund applied to half pay. The cumber of half pay officers of the navy was this year wetter than last year. The Government ought to be more cautious in granting half pay in the army and navy to persons who never served, or intended to serve. The amount of the pensions and dead weight sia. no less than six millions. The Government should find some remedy for this in the recess. Sir H. HARDINGE contended that the present Commander of the army had given his attention to the reduction of the half pay and dead 'Night of the army. Twelve hundred officers cf the half pay list of the army had been absorbed since 1820, and the dead weight of • that branch of the army had been reduced in proportion. There was no parallel between the situation of desks in the Governnient offices, and those in mercantile offices, as the latter, though receiving a low salary at first, were sure to obtain a wealthy independence, while the cle•ks is the Government offices were obliged to wait a regular routine for an increase of their salary. In the Oi dnance office a clerk was not entitled to 1201. before 12 years, nor to 3001. before 24 years. Mr. MONCIC could not admit that the observation of the Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir It Hardinge) applied generally. It might be just with respect to clerks in some commercial houses, but nut to those in the Bank, and other similar establishments. _ _ _ Mr. HUME complained that the, salaries in the va rious public departments were very 'unequal, and he regretted that they had been so long allowed to con tinue so. Mr. W. SMITH did not think the salaries of clerks in the public offices too small, as for every vacant office there were more than 20 applicants. Even in the Saint Katherine Docks the number of applicants for one hun dred places was not less than two thousand. Mr. Secretary PEEL did , not think the number of applicants for vacant situations a just criterion of the abundance of qusliflediandidates,for though there might be many applicants, few of them might be found on ex amination competent to fill the situations. As to-the peraa sons employed in the subordinate offices under Govern.l anent, it was indispensably necessary that the spirit oC Gendetnen•should pervade their conduct in the important and confidential dune, that were imposed on them—that- they should possess and be enabled to maintain the character of Gentlemen. There were secrets of State necessarily entrusted to those persons, and their salary ought to be such as should make them independent of other means of subsistence, and sufficient to support them in decency. The salary of the subordinate persons in the Ordnance Office was too low. He regretted it should be so, when he semembered the nature Of the trust that mu tbe necessarily reposed in them. For instance, it was known that Ministers could nut at all times be able to make out all the copies of their dispatches; and, in such cases, these I- ersons most, in the discharge of this duty, be necesssrily entrusted with important secrets. Why then, when they wrre treated as Gen tlemen, should they not be provided with the corn pensation and provision due to persons possessing the educatios of Gentlemen? Then, in the changes that took place in the persons filling high office, those com ing new into office must depend in a great measure on the subordinate officers of the several establishments fur a knowledge of the routine of their official duties. In that case, it was the policy of this country to give a liberal compensation to those persons, while they were obliged to entrust them with official secrets—a com pensation such as might warrant the Government in placing confidence in their discretion, integrity, and judgment. Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN thought clerks in met. cantile offices were subject to much heavier responsi bility, and required much more talent for the discharge of their duties, than clerks in the Government offices; yet their salaries were very low,. and their situations un certain—not, however, but he would allow that some of the Government clerks received too low salaries; but that was the fault of the Government, who reduced the Walks of the bairn fry, while they let the large fishes escape. After a few observations from Mr. Secretary Put. and Mr. , the resolution was agreed to. The House resumed,the Report was brought up, agreed to, and leave given to bring in the Bill. Mr. SPRING RICE moved for a Return of the names of the Butter Tasters in the several ports of Ireland, by whom appointed, and their emoluments.—Ordered. OIDNANCII ESIIIMATES.• On the motion of the CIANCILLOII of the EICHEQUIR, the Re port of the Committee of Supply was brought up , by Sir A. GLANT. On the Resolution being read for granting the sum of .C 24,853 to his Majesty for the salaries of the Mastertierieral, the Lieutenant General, and the other principal Olken of the Ordnance, Mr. HU ME, for the purpose of having his opinion recorded in the Journals, and without any intention of pressing the question to a division, moved twu Amendments—the one to reduce the sum to 124,535; the other to omit the words'' Lieutenant General." Mr. J. WOOD pressed the neceedty af a reduction. Mr. M A BERLY regretted the evident indisposition of the House to take a single step in the reduction of the public expenditure. Sir H. H A RDINGR said. that the principle on which it was proposed to retain the Lieutenant General was, that that Officer was essential to the well being of the service. Both the Amendments were then negatived; and the Resoluti, was agreed to.—Several of the succeeding Itesibused were wee d to without comment. • • - - On the Resolution bein mad for granting the sum of .476,849 for the remainder of the Iktroordmaries, bir. HUME objected to the number of storekeepers, especially i n t h e Colonies, and recommended she comolklationofsotne of their situations. Sir H. H ARDI NOR said that any masolidation of the different storekeepers duties abroad would be highly Injurious. bk. WA REILLY strongly supported the principle of consolida tion, as eseentia) to economy. lbe Resolute p was then agreed to, as were several which followed. On the Resolution being read forgralsting th e amt of a 8 80,237 for the expense of the li mn* -Depatiftent, Mr. HUME wished to know whetter it was intended by his Majesty's Governmen‘ to catty into effect thejeconmsendation of the Fiance Committee with respect. to the teffaction of the pay of Barrack Masterson foreign statOts? ' Sir H. lIARDINGE laid that it was not; because the 'recommendation of the Fitiance Committee was directly opposed to all the evidence on the subject. It that recommendation were acquiesced in, the conse quence would be that many of the best barrack masters on foreign stallions must relinqUish their situations. The salary of a Captain who was a bar rackmaster was ten shillings ; his half-pay was seven shillings and sixpence. What the Committee recom mended was, that his salary should he reduced to eight shillings, and that his hall-pay should he sus pended: he world, therefore, have to discharge the du ties of a barrackmaster fur sixpence a day ! The same, objection applied 'to the recommendation of the Finance Committee as to •Subalterns who held the situations of barrackmasters. Mc. MABERLY admitted that the Finance Com mittee had dealt out a severe economy on this subject ; but as his Majesty's Government had pledged themselves to attend to nll their recommendations, with the excep tion of that respecting the Lieutenant General, he thought that they were bound to redeem that pledge. The object which the Finance Committee had in view, was to re duce the half pay list. After a few words from Sir H. Hanninor and the CHANCILLLOR of the Eacarrauert, the Resolution was agreed to. On the Resolution being read for granting the sum of •C 30,000 for the Military Works at Kingston, in Upper Canada, and at Halifax, in Nova Scotia, Mr. E. DAVENPORT wss desirous of knowing, it the Right Hon. Gentleman could give the House an .. assurance that the estimate on this subject would not be exceeded ? Sir H. HARDINGE, in answer to the honourable Gentleman's question, said that the estimate had been formed on the best data, and that the probability was that it would not be exceeded. He ought, however, to state, that as the price of materials sometimes vat ied considerably, it was possible that some elms might take place on that ground. He was sure that the Hon. Member did not mean to cast any imputation on Col. Bye, who was engaged in the arduous duty of forming tee Rideau Canal. There was a Committee of Engineer Officers in Canada. by whom the various operations were superintended ; and he thought it would be pre mature in the House to pronounce any opinion on the subject at present. Mr. ROBINSON said, that the vote he gave last night was founded on the opinion for med in consequence of what had near red in the Finance Committee, and from knowing that Military Commissioners had been sent out to snake inqu ries ; that his Majesty's Government had better postpone a-Ain; for a vote of money till all the linformation was before them. He voted as he had done last night from thinking that al the circumstances rhouid be before the House which would enable it to form a correct judgment. He would at the same time observe, that he, had known instance.s abroad of expensive works having been begun by <ngineer officers, which were demolished by their successors. Mary such works were undertaken, be believed, without accurate in formation being possessed by his Majesty's Minis ters ; and they were induced to give their sanction to the cemmencenSent of works, because they did not know what expense nee would ultimately cost. He believed many works were so undertaken, which cost more than Government had ever expected. He did not complain of any individuals; he.knew that there was not a more respectable corps in the army than the engineers; but they had a great deal too much power, end led the Government to sanction a large expenditure for works, which were abandoned when they were changed. He had seen such works demolished while Wets were constructing. He wished to take that op portunity of ent.iring his protest against the doctrine broached last night. He thought it was absurd and ridiculous to say, that the time was now come when the question ought to be put to the Colonies, whether they would separate from the Mother Country or not? Even if Gentlemen regarded the Colonies merely as a matter of uounds, shillings. and pence, such a proceeding would be most unwise. Sir HENRY HARDINGE called on the Honourable Member to state, it what Tie asserted of works being pulled down had been donciwithin the last ten years. Mr. ROBINSON said, the particular instance he had alluded to happened more theh'ten years ago. Sir HENRY HARDINGE and Mr. ROBINSON mutually explained. Mr. MABERLY defended the proceedings of the Finance Committee, in not having given an opinion on subject of fortifying Canada. Mr. W. SMITH was of opinion that the whole ques ' tion of the policy of fortifying Canada ought to have bees discussed in that House before one shilling was voted. • Such a policy was very doubtful, because the frontier was so extensive that it was impossible to se cute it at all points; and from the rapid increase of the power of America it would be exposed to an ii resistible enemy. Nothing could keep it in our possession but the attachment t f the people. Mr. HUME wished to know if the Colonists them selves had asked fur these fostificattuns ? He believed cwt; and he doubted, it they were consulted, if they would Agree to have them erected. Considering the financial state of the country, he considered this one of the most profligate, uncalled-for proceedings he had ever witnessed. It was a complete waste of the re sources of the country. Considering the enormous burdens under which the people of this country were suffering, and the amount of caution which would be necessary to raise the three millions, he thought it ought on no account to be cart ied on. It would be far better to reduce the taxation of the country, and relieve the over . ..burdened people. He hoped speedily to see corn ai 40s. the quarter, and then he should have the Honourable Member for Suff.-lit, whom he was glad to see in his place, again coming down, and complaining of low prices; and as it would be Impossible for the Government to give him any relief, he would then pro bably assist him (Mr. Hume) in compelling the Go vernment to give up a portion of taxation. In order to place his sentiments on record, he should moveois an amendment to the Resolution, " That it is inexpedient, considering the present financial condition if the coun try, to engage in erecting military works in British North America requiting so large a sum as 2,833,6904" Mr. WAITHMAN seconded the amendment. Sir H. HARDINGE denied the analogy of Sierra Leone, which had been adverted to in the discussion. In that case the Ordnance had no power to expend money, but by order of the Treasury. The first ex penditure on the Barracks of Sierra . Leone was by order of the Colonial Department, and paid out of the Army Extraordinaries. Mr. HUME had urged, that for such reasons all such services should be placed under the Board of Ordnance. Mr. F. PALMER said the Government had been led into this expense, and it was now the duty of the House to controul it. Mr. MONCK adverted to the distresses of the country, and opposed the grant. The House had le fined assistance to Ireland, bit was now about Is vole trtis enormous sum to slime who did not ask it. Mr. WARD thought that Government had selected what, would ultimately trove the cheapest and beet mode of defending the Cel net das. At this late period of the Session, it was ni t necessary to go into details—it was sufficient to vo e the main question. Sir M. W. RIDLEY thought that -if they. Wire its retain possession of c anada, and to support faith *with the Colonies, the mode now recommended .woe .be the most economical and efficient. Mr. BENETT concurred Vi it II what had fallen front the Honourable Member for Callingt in. He ihoogitt it useless to expend such immense stints in a Colony that would be soon able to act independently of the Warr Country. Colonies were analogous to 'children, and after they had grown to a cettain state, all that thepa rent could expect rif them was a friendly intercourse., and nct a condition cf . bondage. Sir E. OWEN thought that C +nada had the greatest intere•t in-preserving itself a 13iitish Colony. The pre = posed fortifications would be rallying points of loyalty. The question was then put and carried without a division. The nest vote, that a sum not exceeding X 155,000 be granted for improving, in 1828, the communication between Montreal and Kingston, was.caried without a .division. COIN'uRATI FAINDS Mr. FYLER rose, on the Order of the Day for bringing to the Report of the Corporate .Funds Bill, and opposed the BM, on/be ground that it would interfere with !tested rights. The lionourabk Member concluded by moviiig tiut the' repott be Immix to this day three months. Colonel Si BTIIORP also opposed the Bill. • Mr. S. RICE was in favour of the Rill. Mr. G: DAWSON opposed the Bill, and showed that the Sill had been introduced upon something more than public motives. Mr. 111 , Mr. D. GiLsaitv, and Mr. H. Gomm., supported the Bill. Mr. BA NKES opposed the Bill. Mr. TRENT asked whether the Hon. Member for Limed* was.prepared , to bring in a Hill to prevent the Catholic Association front applying funds raised by subscription to J.:tertian purposes! ♦ •Corporation had as much rigbt to support Candidates as sag Association whatever. Mr. PALMER supported the Bill. The House then divided— For the Amendment For receiving the Report 11 110 Majority for receiving the 'Report - —l9 The Saving Banks Bill and tbe Beer Bill passed through tato. , mittees, and were ordered to he reported on 'Eburstlay. The other Orders were disposed of, and the liottae•adjotarnad at a QOaaTaa TO Two. it Li 14; NEV KIN IIN r4TA it. I LOA Ifl )N. WEDNESDAY. JULY 9, 1829. STOCK EXCHANos,, TWELVE O'CLOCK. Consols opened this morning at 88a 4 for she Account, and :ea to Fx. Divid. Little business is doing at present. It is +aide great deal of Stock was *O4l yesterday for the delivery to-day. In the French Market Portuguese and Brazilian Bonds haw lowered, in consequence of the state of affairs between Buenos Ayres and Brazil. A great number of failures were daily taking place at Buenos Ayres; and peace was not expected to take place for some time to come, without the interference of the Deli and French squadrons. CITY, lIALF-PAST ONE O'CLOCK. The Censol Market has been fluctuating during the morning between 88* and 884 for the Account ; some Money Stock was brought to market, which caused the heaviness of the market; few purchases have since been made, and in consequence the market ba rather improved. The price may now be quoted 864. In the Foreign Market little doing, except In Portuguese al Brazil Stock, which receded two per cent. Letters from Vienna of the 29th ult. quote the Metalligats as 92i, in the evening 93. PRICE OF STOCKS AT TWO O'CLOCK. Bank Stock India Bonds 104 3 per Cent. Red. 87i 4 4 Old Annuities 3 per Ct. Cons. 874 61 iex Mt. New Ditto 961 cc div. 36 per Cent. '954 .Biooo Exclteq. Bills 69 54 per Cent. Red. 954 * £5OO I)ittn 69 70 4 per Ct. New, 1014 gex die. .8100 and £2OO Ditto 89 70 4 per Cent. 1826, 1041 / Advertised Lung Ann. 194 11.16 Bank for Acct. 'lndia Stock Consols for Acct. 884 FORRIGN FTINI3S, TWO ()Wl.' /CK. Brazilian Bds. 5 pCt. 85 t 4 S I Mez./3d5,1112.5,2p Ct. DoAcct 63 94 3 2j 51 1 Do. Ate 41 40/ Ayres 114 h. 6p C. Portug. Bds. SpC. De. 45 41 5 Do Acct. 60 59 Colon itmul. 6 per Ct. Ru55.8d5.1822,5 para. 9* Du. Bo 3,1824,241 Do Aect. 939 Danish lid.. 3 pCt. French Rentes, 3 p Ct. 721 Do Acct. 614 t 8 Exchange 25130 E BRITISH AND FOREIGN SHARKS, TWO O'CLOCK.. SHADE. PAID. 100 90 25 55 20 71 721$ 100 2.24 1743 # Anglo "Alezican Brazilian Colombian We cannot concur in the doct Ines broacbed by some of the Opposition Members, in the course of the leg debate upon the fortifications in Canada. It is con. tended, that because those fortifications are very ek pensive, and because certain differences have unfor tunately arisen of late in the Houses olf Assembly between the Governor and the Members, that the time is arrived when a separation would be beneficial boa* the Mother Country and the Colony ; and it is gravely recommended that some such proposal should emanare Isom Great Britain, and be forwarded to Canada for consideration there. Now, without entering into a genet inquiry into the effects of colonization on the Parra: State, but assuming that they are not, in this c ac'' tually prejudicial to Great Britain, it ought to be re membered that the locality of Canada with regard to the United States makes the question a verf different one from that of pkunds, shiliongs, and pence with regard to ourselves. It can never be or posed that the Canadas, if separated from us, wodA become an independent State ; their interest is obviooli to unite themselves Kith a richer and more advance) nation, and to add one province more to the alio. extensive territory of the United States. Upon col principle that recommended the union of Scotland la Ireland with England, such a junction would be detect Arable to be advantageous to Canada. Can we tho afford to make this sacrifice ? Can we afford to 'no' with indifference' upon the retention of the Westin' / `' Islands? We think not, unless we intend to a bantla our present influence in the New World. England respected, not only as an European, but as an Amen' can Power; and, independently of the collateral btu' i fits to our trade and shipping, our Western is one of the securities of our greatness—peilialli 41 ' our existence—as a first rate nation. 'rake away nu.: Colonies one by one_rtrip us cf our Western, and nu' of our Eastern and Southern possessions—and obit' Great Britain, but a small cluster of islands, that w OOI inevitably degenerate into a second or thud rate ewe' ' r' so