Star. — London, England, 1801-06-06 00:00:00

• :s.• ohlte ingag . ement ; an he could wit h now to fee fuch Men be Coffered to hide themfelves, whilft them ailing rn theirown defence, as whenever they they have the power to opprefs with impunity? folight.in perfon they were vietorious. - Allufions He could not help feeling the moll painful fenia bad' been made to the prefent Minders as follow- tions, when he faw from day to day the Conftitu. b ig up the {lime meafures as their predeceffors. Lion frittered away, abaft thole who Jo fo were Bid he commended thofe Minifters, not on the continuelly boaffing of being its guardians and igr .)iiiid of fervilely copying their oredecenrs but prowl**. What, he eked, was it that made-the inn foliowin4 the fame path which he was confident Britiffi Conflitution the wonder and admiration of wIS the wiieft road to the honour, the fafety, and furrennding nations? What but the publicity of the profperity of the country. our trials, the boaft of Englifhmen ! But this, Sir FRANCIS Busocrr heard no ar g ument front which made Britons the envy of the world, is now the Hon. Baronet or the Hon. Gentl eman to jut- to be abandoned, to conceal from. the country a tity this meafure to his mind. He was glad to hear fet of informers who are afraid to avow themfelves it avowed that the Bill was not, as he had ima- —afraid to come forward with their accufations. gined, a bill of indifcriminate indemnity to all He might be accrifed of old-fantioned maxims; perfons ailing under the fufpenfion of the Habeas yet he would, notwithltanding, adhere to the prin. Corpus law, or to excufe any of thole cruelties, or ciples of our anceftors; and not confent to conft-. wanton and unneceffary feverities, praftifed under der a man guilty until he was declared fo by a the pretence of executing the powers entrufted to Jury of his Country.—Upon this maxim, which his Majefly's Minifters by the fufpenfion of that the laws and nfage of our anceftors affirmed, he law. The Bill, as it Struck his view, Teemed to go mull confider every perfon confined tinder the fur, t hat length ; but, perhaps, it was the intention of petition of the Habeas Corpus Aft innocent ; for the Right Honourable Gentleman who introduced he could not confider them guilty becaufe his Ma it to move tome explanatory amendments in the jefty's Minders faid they.were fo, and withheld Committee ; and that point, therefore, he fhould their guilt from the world to conceal (pies and in not for the prefent urge any hither. But with formers. He thought if they were guilty, it was reipeet to the Report of the Secret Committee, 'due to the country that that guilt fbould be brought upon which this Bill was judified, and which was home to them ; and if innocent, it was due to the held forward in vindication of 'his Majefly's late individual, and the country, to eftablifit his inn°. Minifters, what was it ? vertkfa d gram& Oda; cence. No delicacy in his mind was due to fpies a voluminous pamphlet, frill of declamation, of and informers, who were ever the inftruments of conjefture, of affertion without proof, unfupported tyranny and oppreffion ; inftruments for the op. by a tingle fall, which thofe who formed that re- prefflon of innocence. They were not recognized port even affeaed to Found upon any other foot- 'by the laws-of England; and he was forry to fee it ing thanthe communication of fpies and informers. now attempted to illation them by any laW. So te- In one place it Slated refolutions formed by the nacious were our anceftors of the liberty oldie fus'. feditious perfons Strongly expreffive of a condom- jeft, that on alI occafions it was their 'firft rank nation of the war, and of a define for peace, as the and in the laws againtl ads of treafon, whilst they only meafure likely to reflore trade to its 'dual were revere again& the perfons charged with that • channels, and give employment and cheap provi- offence, they were Still more tenacious iii provid. !ions to the bulk of the people and in another it ing him•means of defence ; fince, to prove an overt charges them with having exprefed willies for the aft two witneffes mull be produced. He natal have prolongation of the war, as the belt ground to a copy of his indidment ; he ntuft be aq,ne ' hope iffiftnce from tht French for carrying into Counfcl ; in fine, every care is taken that he fball effed their (editions purpofes. How there contra- have a fair trial ; thus confirming that truly didory principles vitreito'be reconciledwas beyond tiara principle—" that it were better that ninety his com_prehenfion ; - Mit when farts and proofs and nine guilty perfons pareimpuniihed, than oat. were called for they were not to be had. At,one innocent perfon Puffer." was ffirry;:he {`aid; time the lone and twins given by a/e-houfe clubs to fee an inclination to meet the principle,'finct: were the (okras tertinegincralarm ;!at another, (itch pains were taken, at the rilk of petulhing the the - nate of the weather ,wit found to be the rea innocent, to punifla the . guilty. Were tht.pOwers fon' *by the itteolutionifts did not carry their granted to his Maletly r i.WilifterS by the flifpen- , purlidei into operation , as if they mold only lion of the Habeas corpits A d ,-,granted for th e carmen their contras:Neon fair days. Such - was purpofe of oppreffingindividuals, and withholding * fpechnen Of the raceme materials raked toge- from them the means of proteding themfelves, and thee for the rupee of compiling that pompous of etlablifhing their innocence ? When the Ha-. report fo folemnly held forward as the claim for bees Corpus Ad was firsfafpenelcd, it was op indemnity to brmifters. Was it imagined, that poled by himfelf and Gentlemen rid that fide edit; becaufe Parliament bad voted Strong meafures to Houfe, from a convidion that nikLerafe had' been Minifters, they were therefore bound* to indemnify made out to warrant the meafure; and they were them for the abufe of thofe meafures? When the told that if Minitlers abufed the power entrufted Honk was called on to veft in them thofe extraor- to them, they were refponfible to that Houfe and denary and„unconftitutional • powers, it was faid the country. What, he alked A was now become there was no caul to - apprehend an &bele of thofe of that promifed refpontibitity? After having prac powers, feejog . the broad kale of refpon fi bility on tired upon that fufpenfion , by keeping perfons in which his Maiefty's Wlinifters Rood. But *ow, prifon three, four, and five years, in dark, .cold, when fo many proofs matted of the grofs abufe of difmal, damp, (lone cells, to the 'de,ftruetion of thofe powers, and the wanton cruelties exercifed their conftitution, and the manifeft injury of their towards individuals under the pretended authority property, they now come forward to alk for a bill of thofe powers ; the moment refponfibility is of Indemnity, becaufe they were not able to bring mended, the moment the, innocent fufferers conviStion home toperfons they thOught proper to hew the nights& difpofttion to leek redrefs from deprive of liberty for lb long a time. Whit& the lairs of their country, a bill of indemnity is thofe Hon. Gentlemen challenged charges and in brought forward to fcreett their oppreffors, and quiry, they took care to keep the means of bring exclude them from every appeal to ;office. He iug convidion home to them, front thofe who inifhed to know whether this Bill was a meafure would readily have undertaken the talk ; andnow brought in orhis own accord by the Right Hon. all was to be Shielded under a Sill of Indemnity. Auonr/Oimeral, as a meafure which he himfelf —The Hon. Baronet (Sir William Efford) has oha confonant to juftice and conftitutional law, j unified the conduit of the Committee. No doubt r whether he brought it in o ffi cially at the de fi re he confiders it as a matter of jutliet ; and the °Umbers? He cotad not think the Right Hon. Houfe was candidly told by the Right Hon. the Gentleman had an opportunity of examining Into Chancellor of the Exchequer, that he would Pup the tondo& of thofe, his Majefly's late Minders, port the Bill of Indemnity for his predeceffors, be whom the Bill went to indemnify, or the proofs caufe he did not know how loon he rnightrequire ' i'w hr they deferved indemnification. For his one himfelf. Such hs,admitted to be very true ; Own yret he was fo thoroughly convinced •by a and indeed he could not tell how Coon thofe very fucceirma of irrefragable proofs for aleries Of five predeceffors might become the fucceffors of the years pall, of the grofs abufe Of the powers en- prefent Adminiftration. But, for his part, he could tended to his, Majelly's Minifters, and many of never content to any meafure which could fcreen which Rood nneontradifted in the petitions on the the authors of fuch cruelties and oppreffions as table, that he fhould oppore the motion for die were experienced by the unfortunate men confined Speaker's leaving the Chair. under the fufpenfion of the Habeas Corpus; and Mr.44arrin (of Galway)eontendeJ, that MU- he protefted folemnly to Gon, that were he to be !lets were the odlyperfons who had a right to coat- put to his option of immediate death or fuch an plain elf ibis Bill. Their tonguft had been per- imprifonment as any one of them had fuffered, of redly legal, and they could eerily prove it to have upwards of three year, in a cold dreary and foli been fo, were they at 'l iberty to difclofe the evidence tar) , cell, he would embrace intent death, as a re which had been laid 'before them. lief from his tnifery. The cruelties they had endured Mr. Okay faid, if any thing . could prove the were enough to make human nattwe fltudder—Shut neceffity of not palling the Bill, it was the condo& up in dungeons, without the comfort of a friend to of the Hon. Gentlemen on the oppofite fide of the confole them under their 'nicety, or being allowed Houk, who had not even thought proper to pro- the ofe of pen, ink and paper; and now they are duce one precedent in jollification of the moll un- denied the only confolation they could poffibly re exampled meafure ever brought before Parliament. ceive under fuch mifery, that of eflablifhing their The Bill, he' raid, deferved public reprobation, innocence ; for can any man believe if they are and he could not content himfelf with oppolling I 4 guilty, that they would expofe themfelves to fuch but fhould protell againit it, as one of the moll un- a trial as mutt inevitably attach guilt upon them, preCedented was of the late or any former Admi- even though the proof of treafon was not brought niftration. He ffiouldbe furprifed at it---if it were home to them ? Suppofing them innocent, as he potlible for hint to be respelled at any thing that mull do in jultiee, what then would the Houfe do tame from the fameteamtee—yet he owned, moch by palling the Bill of Indemnity ?It would exclude as he had expelled, be did not calculate on to ex- the front the henefits of the laws of their country, traordieary a meafure as the one now before the and from theopportunityof affertingthatinnocenee Houfe. If lie gave the Bill its proper appellation, —and at a time too when his Maietly's late and be mull tale it a Bill for the encouragement of pietist Minifters tell the Houfe they have proof, Secret Accufers. He faw it, and he law it with and refute at the fame time to bring it forward. pain, for the &II time, that fecret erniffaries were Admitting their innocence then, fuch conduit to be rev nized by Parliament. What precedent - could only tend to make them real traitors. What ill En law, or in the Brinfh Conftitution,nflict, he winked to kr..-w, was there in the Bill ? was re , he shed, for fuch proceedings ? For It was nothing lets than a Bill to confirm and ap his pan e ha knew of no precedent which mote prove pa* oppreffions, and to encourage them agreed with the mealiire than that which was to in future. His Majefty's Minifters, whiff(l they be f mad in the mob of Tacit" , in the reign of boated that they wanted no indemnity, well knew Tiberius. There it Would be found, that the peo- that they could in time to tome flicker themfelves ple were opprefed by Qua and informers, who tinder t h e perm maim, which for themfelves were recognised by *8 Roman tyrant ; but fuch t hey appeared to defpife. It was a Bill to preclude t meafure was not to be feted is the annals of the all perfoeal anions; of which all perfons concerned &hint Connitutiened—Blaeh a detedable :mature may take advantage i if this was not getting rid telisleft ftor the psekat tune to recognize, towhich of rerponfibility, he would alk what was getting "" was forty to witiolfe-- Molineftlnien hrs. rid of it ?By far the greater number of perfoas dial *tegument condoled by fpies and inform- confiniod on fufpicioa.of High Trea,ffin were from ors fitfaß ilionitable be a beel Government" The the lower chafes of ibeiety, but that could not illtalmt add be dose on a perfon who is afraid pally the Haute in paring a Bill to deprive them aggairbtattape bit; why then Should of what th e y te e m h e jieshihmett. ended to as as the grit Min in the kingdottl-.-thei;elTeiti sand protection ot the laws. He could not perfuade ihimfelf that that Houfe would confent to pats a I Bill, which had for its foundation to keep from the world fecret information received by , his Majefty's Miniflers. Nothing, he raid, in the Indemnity Bills paffed in the years 1715, 1745, and 1780, bore any analogy to the prefent meafure. In thofe cafes, the sills of Indemnity had no reference but to the immediate caufes; the two former .to the rebel lions, and the latter to thole dreadful riots which certainly demanded ftrong meafures. But the pre fent Bill has no period fixed—it is to cover every thing that has been done by his Majefty's late Mi nifters, and proclaims to the world, that the Go vernment of England is in loch a hate that it can not Rand without the aid of fecret acenfers : that they have paffed a Bill to fang ion -them ; contrary to the firit principles of their laws, have made nien judges in their own caufe. He thought the Committee, when it recommended the mea lure, had done nothing lefs than pronounce a con demnation and puni(hment upon a fa of men who were denied an opportunity of vindicating them (elves ; thereby conflituting themfelves Judges, without 1. vlng heard either party—without hav ing examined either the informer or the accufed. They took it all upon the word of his Majetty's late and prefent Minifters. He then entered into a reprobation of the lyftem of choofing by ballot a let of men avowedly marked out by his Majetty's Miniflers ; and concluded by an obfervition from Montefquieii, that the Conftitution mutt when the Legiflative Body became more corrupt thls n. the . Executive." Mr. WINDHAM denied that the objea of this IBill vas, as the Hon. Gentleman had Rated, to tirotea men who had done wrong. Its necetlity *as founded in the very nature of thofe proceed. , begs to which it adverted. In cafe a fuit Ihould be commenced againft any of the perfons to be in demnified, their juftification mull inevitably de paid on the produaion of information, which it would not be confluent with the ppblic fafety to ' bring forvrard, becaufe it was for the intere ft of the , public that there fhould be men from whom infor r elation could be received. The Hon. Gentleman • had obferved, " that in cafes of this kind the pre dominance of good ought to be confidered t and diet the objet of fuch a law fhould be the protec tion of innocence, and not the panifhment of guilt." Confining the application of this maxim to the pre - t fubjea, he would fay that it was poflible fome people might have been committed on infufficient information, yet the perfons ordering thefe com mitments ought not to be expofed to vexatious pro ficutions. It ought, in the prefent intlance, to be left to the Houfc to determine which of thofe prin. ciples ought to predominate. It fhould be left to Om Houte to judge how far the power entrufted to lignifters and Magiftrates had been abuted ; or tehether they ought to be expofed to prolecution be cafes where their conduct was right: And even U . they bad done their duty, would it be proper to compel them to produce that information, which it had formerly been declared ought not to be dif clofed. But the Hon. Gentleman condemned al together this kind of fecret information, and raid a great deal againft (pies and informers. This was the conitant theme of complaint from Gentlemen on the other fide of the Houfe: this praztice was with them, contrary to the good old times of the. Conflitution. But thofe Gentlemen never confi. dered that the times were changed, and that it would be impoffible to be guided by the maxims of ancient times in .meeting complaihts which had never cabled till lately. Was the Houfe, under the prefent circumliances, to be tied up by ancient Rice? The Honotirable Gentleman retied all his arguments on this point, and the' fliort way of anfwering them was, by alking a Ihort quer tion—What precedent was there of any proceed ing againft rebellions fuch as exifted in modern times ? There was a rebellion in this country in the year 3745: would any man fay it was of the fame nature with that which was now lurking in this country ? It was odd that nothing had yet been gained by the praaice and expe rience which pay day was before our eye at with every ping broken up and deftroyed, an wherethe au thors wanted to wipe away every thing with a lir Ae, any Gentleman Ihould propofe to tie up oufe by ancient pradlices. When our ene mies difregarded the faith pf treaties, when they ridiculed every thing that had hitherto been held famed, when they were bound by nothing, was it a time to talk of precedents ? If the French Kern lotion had not produced a change in the world, ha did not know an event there was fence the Deluge that did fo. Neitherof thole celebrated authors,Ta. Otos or Montefquieu, whom the Hon. Gentleman looted, could furnifh maxims to fuit the prefent tspi es. If Montefquieu was now alive,he would find 6se theories had but little application to the events den were going forward. There were many of the Hon. Gendesnan's obfervations on the con ihwaion of the Committee of Secrecy which it timid be unneceffary to anfwer. As to the Mem bers being interefted in the decifion they were to , he would fay, that they had been appointed the Houfe not only on account of being the moft. impartial who could be chofen on fuch ace ion ; but becaufe they were the molt en- blend; ; becaufe they.polfelfed the beg loforin on the fubjeft they were to inveftigate. 80 that even if they had been interefted, the chan nels of information iebith they polklfed fhould lake the Houfe wiflOthat they might be appoint ,ed. As to the mode of forming the Committee, 'that was alfo made a ground of charge againft Illinifters, as if they had fome finifter defign in ( that proceeding. For the credit of the Houfe ait would not let this part of the objeaions go without an anfwer ; and he mull at once &f -ame, that there was no other way of appoint the Committee than that by wbich it wasap ured —namely, by ballot. if the twenty-one • bets were to hive been I goe, wad if in doing fo roe merits of every limed, the Ho , to the end of ." it necedary to , for the credit of eight not be. ppefed as the laughingltelck of any SEA in a German univerfity, nor of any Weary; Zee in the Univerrity of Cambridge. tie did not think the Wore wmild liayi7 ?died with impar. tiality if it had chorea thofe who always thought ill of Minifters. It-was the duty of the Honfe now• to take the predominance of good, and the good of the public mull alwayi predominate over that Of individuals : there were men who had a claim . on the proteCtion of that Houle. The Houfe was not laying down a general law tor the future ; but by giving this indemnity, it was left to future Par liaments either to give the fame to others or not, jug as they fhould think At. There was one ge neral opinion that prevailed on the other fide of the Houfe, which was, a general' denial of the ex iftence of danger. How any man could deny that dangers of the fort be alluded to exifted, aftee having feen the ruin of Europe nearly accomplifh ed by them, was to him incomprehenfible. If fuels an argument was good for any thing, it would go equally to prove that no fuch thin{ as danger had ever exifled in Ireland ; yet many Gentlemen even in that country at the very time of danger denied the exigence of it. After fuch affertions as he had heard, and fuch rafts as he had witneffed, the Rory of Bays and his army at Knightraridge mutt no longer he confidered as fa bulous. But while Gentlemen were Itre'auoufly contending that there was nothing like danger in Ireland, the rebellion born forth on a fuddin in all its horrors. It was, therefore, the duty of Parliament, by timely precaution, to prevent a fimilar event from happening in this country; and in doing to they were to be guided, not .by the affertions of Gentlemen on the othei fide of the Houfes but by eircumbnoes, and by the :Anal Rate of things as they were. Nothing could be fo erroneous as the opinion given by the Honourable Gentleman as to the prefent Elate of the country: the Houfe had felt differently, and the Report of the Committee was a reprefentation of the judg ment of the Houfe ; anti if the gotta, 'after hav ing trußed men with great power's, were to exports them to perfecution, it would hi doing an irrepa rable mifchief to the country: becaufe it would be expofing the names of pertonf from whom infor mation dill continued to be received, and who, in fpite of all that had been laid againft fpies s in formers, were highly ufefut and necelfary. On the_CF grounds he would furport the Bill. Mr. HORNE TOOKE in riling to refill the farther progrers of the Bill, profelfed himklf divefted of every particle of perfonal animofity or rancour to the late Minilters, though few perfons had ex perienced greater. oppielfion and injuftice. He was the more readily inclined to (Peak on the pre. Galt occafion, as he could ( peak candidly and kind of tome of thole who were at the head of Admi naftration. He did not believe that the princi pa l leaderi of the prefent Adminilltation would fol low the condua of the late Minifters. Perrone detained under the fufpenfion of the Habeas Con; pus Aft had, owing, if not to the interference, at kart to the negldt of the late Minifters, been•ex pored to the molt atrocious truelties. The pre fent leaders of Adminiftration, front all the in formation he Rad collated, were. determined to prevent even the poffibility of the renewal of fuch enormities. Thole now apPrebendedi.he believed, were fairly kept in cuftody, were treated with that humanity due to their fituation, and had no rea fon to complain of cruelty. The prefent Bill he confidered as the brief of the Honourable and Learned Gentleman who had introduced it, and his fee would, he doubted not, be found in the Treafury (eery of order). . Mr. Tooke was at a bole to conceive how he vies in this initance deficient in order, and he was convinced he would be able to make it bear precifely on the queftion before the lloufe. He had been acquainted with politi cal events for 40 years, and during that petiod no lefs than so peerages had been- fhowered down upon the bar, and in the fame face different Ad miniftmtions had In their liberality fhowered down on the fame body ten millions of the public money; there faele.he mentioned in defence of the Right Honourable and Learned Gentleman, who, like others, teas only fiefit and blood, and as fuch, equally . liable to be overcome by fo powerful a temptation. On si late occafion the Houle teemed to him to be feized with an unneceffary panic, when they fuppofed the introduCtion of a few cler 'Olen would taint the purity of their order; but though he thought the panic groundlefs, he could not but approve their defire of preferving their in dependence. He wilted to profs on the Houfe the propriety of receiving with a proper degree of jea loufy the reprefentations of what were denomi nated legal authorities in the Hoek: He re membered a celebrated Lawyer (Sir William Blackftene), having defended a meafure in that Houfe ; on which occafion a pupil of his own read from his notes an opinion direttly the reverfe,vrhich that Lawyer had delivered at his lettarrs, and afterwards publifhed in a book. The Houfe af terwards declared the meature Which this Lawyer had defended, to be illegal. There things he men: tioned to caution the Houfe againß too . Implicit credit to legal authorities. The fpeech of a Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Windham), teemed to be received with fuch applaufe that he had little hope of being able to make an impreffion on the Houfe againft the Bill. When he heard that affer lion of the Right Honourable Gentleman almoft univerfally applauded, he was almoft inclined to have left the HOufe in derpaie. It might be allowed indeed, that there were Come laws adapted to parti cular circurn Ratios, to thelNlNge ofwhich no objec tion could be f;ormed. But there were others founded in nature, whole exigence was unchangeable, and not to be &fretted by any change of circumflances: The laws of which the Honourable Gentleman below him (Mr. Grey) had fpoken, were of chi! defcription. He had contended that the aceufed. before condemnationhad a right to be Eddy beard in their defence, and that it is a duty of pare -taunt obligationi • from oPPrea mely, uy oatuuu u awcinranic ere to have been Oofen one by mount obligation to'protca innocence from cruelty in doing fo the Hoofs was to difcufs and oppreffion. There were laws not founded of every Gentleman who Qiould be alone on pofitive enaftment, but imprinted on the Houfe would never be abk to get human heart, and permanent as immortal natures r the bufinefs. This much he thought At this moment he knew act the molt effeetsal to fay as to the elation by bullot, means of refifting the progrefs of the Bill ; but of the Houle, and ips order that it if he knew any fair and honourable mode of pre- . _ _