Star. — London, England, 1818-04-11 00:00:00

ww --- co mmitted by Ferguson, the letter in fence fence had pr o ved; and Tee the Hono urable Gentle ,lisnuteely pr r el l . W. Dundas) sat down s a y in g that h e would env I- • the motion, and t hat it was impossible but that every Gen tleman se must be satisfied —and wh y ? Becau se La dDouglas denied that he } t ad g iven Fer n ego an y autho ri ty. After all , th is was • no more atithe denial cif the person accused; and because teerson accosed dented the charge, therefore the eommis of England were to rest satisfieJ, thou g h e possess ion of as i n dispotable proof r. that their pri firers had been infringed—( rear . , r ecedents. In hea) He ca detain the House by quoting p ro, when a complaint of this kind was made against the Duke of Chandos, the question was referred to a Committee of Privileges. The same thing was done in the case of Lord Oxford. It the present case was passed over, it would be the fi rst i nstance of such a n eglect of what was due to the honour of the House. The course for the House to adopt we.s either to refer the case to a Committee of Privileges to take evi dence, or if it should be thought more convenient, to order the party at once to the bar of the Ho use.— But the House would be totally forgetful of sts ci ON n dignity if it did not examine inf o ti tins case, Hear.an o)r -der a prosecution a g ainst the ty person ( The LORD ADVOCATE of SCOTLAND beg ged the House to observe, that the notice was for a motion regarding the interference of a Peer of the Realms in the election of a Member of Pa rliamen t. He begg ed to ask wheth er the motion of t l.e Nobl e Lord was conformable to this notice? In opposition to the statement ii: the letter which had been read, the House had the averment of Lord Douglas, that the assertion in that letter, that it was written by his authority, was utterly unfounded—(Laughter from the Opposition.) • There was also the assertion of the individual to whom the letter was addressed, that he did not believe the assertions contained in it to be true. He would therefore put it to the House whether there w ere any grounds for an inquiry as to the conduct of Lord Douglas ? The question as to Ferguson was (elite aleferent. The motion was that Ferguson should be ordered to attend at the bar of this House. He supposed that when the Noble Lord made this motiefi, he had in contemplation the qnestions which he would put to Ferguson ; and he would submit, ahether Ferguson could be obliged to answer any ceestien which might tend to ci noir:ate himself? if be Noble Lord had thought proper to adopt the course of moving for a prosecution, he could only say, that nothing should have been wanting on his part to conduct that prosecution with all his ability. The Noble Lord talked a great deal of the agents and partisans of Government, used to remove him from the representation of the county alluded to. He could assure the House, for his own part, that he had no means of using any influence on any person in'that county.—(Loud laughter on the Opposition Benches.) if he had any means of such influence, it might be another question how he would use them.—(Laugh ter on the Opposition Bench.) For this reason, that, from his strong personal attachment to the Honour able Admiral, who was one of the Candidates, he would be happy by any means to contribute to his saccess.—( Continued laughter.) But the Noble Lord' . tied of the influence of the Peerage, and bans if Lei been directed against him. Would the Noble Lod deny that the Noble Duke, his father, on a for mer occasion, when the election of the county was contested, had used his influence to create 30 new voters? He would not Imes referred to this, had it not been for what the Noble Lord had said. about the independence of the electors• for that county. As to the present question; whatever the House might think proper to de with Ferguson was a very dufer re thing from any thing with relation to Lord Douglas. He admitted 'that Ferguson should be Foceecled against, if he was guilty of improper in urference to influence the votes of electors. Mr- BROUGHAM said, that among the old sayings from which the Honourable Gentleman (Mr. W. Dundas) had made his selection, there was one which was peculiarly applicable to the speech of the', Learned Gentleman who just now sat down, namely, that there is no new thing under the sun ; for the House had heard from that Honourable and Learned Gentleman such a code of the Privileges of the House as was new in every chapter and line. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman had told the House that they could not call Ferguson to the Bar because the notice of his Noble Friend related to a breach of pri vilege by a Peer. But his Noble Friend, who knew what were the privileges of the House, made an apo logy when he gave notice of his motion, for no such reitee was necessary. By the usage of Parliament such a motion as the present might be made without any notice at all ; for it was only necessary for any Member to wale up to the Clerk with such a letter as that this night produced, and when it had been read forthwith to move that the person who wrote it be brought to the bar of the House. Such a motion would take precedence of ail other motions, whether they stood in the notice-book or any where else. Then as to v:hat the Noble Lord said, of having in 'utemplation what questions would be asked When individual was brought to the bar, he shrewdly noted that his Noble Friend had turned over in mind the questions which he would ask, and that first of those questions would be, " Are you the her of this letter ?" If the person at the bar re xi to answer this question, the Serjeant at Arms' old be ordered immediately to commit him to toady. If the Learned Lord Advocate would take trouble to ask any one Member accustomed to', !owns of privilege (for of these the Learned Lord etv nothing)—(lavider)—he would find that this is the mode of proceeding, and that it would be no ntection to an inuividual - in such a situation to say, not answer the question, because my an.' vier may be used to criminate myself," because he en perfectly safe from any use being made in a! etrt of Justice of any answers made by hina to yeeens put by this House. What was the case printer was put to the bar, who had not •oi by the avowed authority of any Lord of Par a:rant ? If he acted under such authority, he would not be called to ole bar; for that I louse was a little ect in proceeding in breaches of privilege—(hear, 4 e 2 r;• 11, in oreieary cases, any one came forward too trplain ct a breael of privileee, then thee- ponr enter s were oreue-ht before the H ous e ; and was t tee said that th e y should not be examined, leouose . -sell tend to their own crimination. Ihe I louse !odd disgrace, reed degrade, aid vilify itself. if eo,tect its privileges in the present in- stance. The moth)* was confined to Ferguson, and nothing was. said in it about L ord Douglas.—e But he must say; that even if the motion • had been against Lord Douglas, the House ought not to be prevented from entertaining it, front any thing which had passed to-night. If he were a friend of Lord Douglas, he would say that, for his sake, the present case should be thoroughly sifted, for if it was allowed to rest as it now stood, great suspicion would rest upon the way in which Lord Douglas was implicated. —(Hcar, hear, hear.) The LORI4-ADVOCATE rase to explain. He had never stated that the House was precluded from entering into the question, because notice had not been given. What he had stated was, that the mo tion fell short of the notice. Mr. BROUGHAM said, he would venture to as sert, that no one member who had heard the speech of the Learned Lord, and who had heard what he (Mr. Brougham) had said in reply, could entertain any doubt that he had stated that speech correctly. Mr. BATIIURST said that the question before the House was on the conduct of an individual of the name of Ferguson, who had certainly been guilty of a very great breach of privilege ; but then the House had to consider how to dispose of the motion now before it. Tile most usual course was to refer such a case to a Committee of Privileges, rather than call the individual, in the first instance, to the Bar of the House. Another course was that which had been followed in the Bishop of Worcester's case in 1704, in which a prosecution was ordered. But in the present case, he thought the most advisable course would be, to refer the matter to a Committee of Privileges ; and therefore he submitted to the Noble land whether it would not be better to do so. If the Noble Lord did not, he himself would move that it should be so referred. Lord A. II:MILTON had no objection to the case being referred to a Committee of Privileges. Mr. BATIIURST wished the Noble Lord to with draw his motion. This was declined, and then Mr. BATHURST moved, as an amendment, that the question should be referred to a Committee of Privileges. Lord A. HAMILTON,. in reply, maintained that the conduct of his father, 15 or 16 years ago, was of a very different complexion from the conduct now complained of—it was a very different sort of in fluence. The present was not personal influence, nor the influence of property, character, or talent, but a corrupt influence, the influence of the Government of the country—subversive of the liberties of election. With respect to the making of votes, the Represen , tation of Scotland was unfortunately of that inade quate description, that- this was the mode in which 1 c ontested elections were conducted. The Represen tation of Scotland, as it stood, was a collection of paper votes, which might or might not be connected with property. . . The original Motion was then itegatisied, and the Amendment agreed to : it was ordered that it.be an instruction to the Committee to proceed to the matter of said complaint to-morrow ; and Lord A. HAMIL ros was added to the Committee of Privileges. CURRENCY OF Tim COUNTRY. 3lr. TIERNEY gave notice, that on Friday next Ihe should mere, that a Coniraittee be appointed to inquire into the state sof the Circulation of the Country both in Paper and in Coin. Mr. TIERNEY n:oved for an Account. of the Total Weekly A irount of Bank Noes and Bank Post Bills, from the 5d of March to The 7th of April, and of those outstanding on the 11th of April, distin guishing the amount of the Bank Post Bills and Notes, and stating that of the whole.—Agreed to. ' Mr. TIERNEI then moved for un Account, shew. • ing the Monies laid out for the purchase of Stock by the Commissioners for the Reduction of the National Debt in each month, from the sth of October, 1817, I to the sth of January, 1818,.and explaining the cause of any diminution in increase of the .money laid out in the course of each of the said months. Agreed to. JERSEY. Mr. BENNET inquired whether any step s had been taken by Gove r nment, in consequence of the Report of a Commission appointed to inquire into the state of the Civil ]saws in the Island of Jersey. The ATTORNEY GENERAL said, that some al terations in the state of those laws were in contem plation, but had hot yet been effected. ORDNANCE ESTIMATES. The House having resolved itself into a Com mittee of Supply, Mr.W.A R D stated, that in proposing the Ordnance Estimates for the year, he should have no occasion to enter into any long details and explanations-- I There was hardly any difference between those Esti mates and those of 1817, except in one point. By a new regulation, that part of the Ordnance that be longed to the Navy, and which had hitherto been charged on the Army Estim ates, was now thrown upon those of the Admiralty, and would in future be paid- by its proper department. All the Military Boards were the same as last year. But, owing to the exertions of the Master-General, the Extraordi narics had been considerably reduced. They now amounted to only 47,0001. more than in 1788, not withstanding the great augmentation which had taken place in the extent of the service and the value of ar ticles since that period. This could not have been done, if the Master-General had not acted on the principle of keeping down the expenditure every possible way. He then moved—That a sum not ex ceeding 596001. Is. Oid. be g ranted for the Ord nance Service of Great Britain in 1818, exclusive of the vote of credit of 150,000/. already granted by the House. Mr. BENNET called the attention of the Honour able Gentleman to the situation of Captain Hum phreys and other Officers of the Corps of Artillery Drivers, who had been reduced and put upon half pay, although it had been proposed and sanctioned by the House that they should retire on full pay.— It was hard that after twenty-two - years' service they should meet with such treatment, whilst Officers who had served only three years in other corps enjoyed their full pay. Mr. BENSON hoped that some step would be taken to an end their condition. 71r. WARD stated that the Corps of Artillery Drivers had increased during the late wars to seven thousand men, who were divided into twelve troops, with twelve Captains and other Officers. They had deserved well of their country, and distinguished themselves on every occasion as far at the nature of their service allowed. it was not, therefore, for any fault Of theirs that they were reduced, but they had experienced the same fate as the Army. Eight troops had been reduced out of the twelve, and put on half pay. When, aft the campaign of 180, a fresh orga nization of the remaining four troops had taken place, as they were still retained, full pay was given to the Officers who retired, and from that arrangement there had been no deviation. If Captain Humphreys was in those four troops, and did not receive his full ,pay, then he was not in the situation in which it was intended he should be placed, and he might not only claim his full pay, but its arrears. But if he belonged to the eight troops which had been reduced, then he was not entitled to more than his half pay. Mr. BENNET contended that the case was en tirely anomalous. It was hard for a person who had served twenty-two years to retire with six shillings and eight-pence per day, whilst individuals in more favoured corps enjoyed their whole pay. He then in stanced an Irish corps which had been reduced at the Union, and the Officers of which had their full pay. Mr. WARD stated, that previous to the Union (there had been two battalions of Irish Artillery, one of which having been reduced before that event, had been put, as usual, on half pay.• The other still exis• ted at the Union,*and an option had been given to its Officers, but not to those of the former, either to en ter into the service of Great Britain or to retire on half pay. The other had remained on the footing of I half pay on which it had been placed, and no com plaints were heard. Now if the eight troops of Ar ,tillety Drivers that had been reduced were entitled to their full pay, so was the Irish battalion, which must then enter into possession not merely of 30001. a year, but of the ariears, which for seventeen years would amount to 51,000/. Mr. BENSON called upon the charity of the House to consider the situation of men who had entcral the service with a promise that on leaving it they would have their full pay. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that if a promise had been pledged it would be re- I deemed ; but if the case merely stood on the merits of the individuals, he had no doubt that the Noble Lord at the head of that Department would pay them I l every attention, consistent with the iatercst of other services. He suggested the propriety of suffering the present vote to proceed, and of bringing the sub . betore the House at a future opportunity. Mr. WARD stated, that it was impossible a pro mise of full pay should have been made, except to the officers.of the four troops which were retained. After some observations from Mr. FORBES and Lord COCHRANE, the conversation dropped, the Re solution was agreed to, and the following sums voted: For Land Ordnance Service, not provided for s. d. is 1817 58,919 17 2 For the Ordnance Department in Ireland, far 1818 For Allowances for Superannuated and Retired Officersin Great Batain,Superannuated Men, and the Widows and Children of those de ceased, for 1818 - - . - For ditto in Ireland - For Superannuated and Half-pay Officers in Oreat Britain, not provided for in 1817 For Compensa tion and Allowances to Persons lately belonging to the Ordnance Department, and holding other Civil Offices 29,70 18 8 For similar . Compeneations and Allowances in - gargery eguiaticat Till, sill niade tohie vations on the necessity of its being carried into effec Sir CHARLES MACK opposed the principle the Bill ix tote : it began at the wrong end, for first step should have been to regulate the College Surgeons. 'fhe fees of aditsission in the College Edinburgh had been raised from 30 to 2504 by confession of that Body, and if any set of individual: were to have the sole power of licensing, money and not ability would be the recommendation. He should move as an amendment, that the Bill he read a second time this day six months. Mr. W. DUNDAS observed, that the admission a Licentiate of the College of Edinburgh was still only 51.; the admission fee of 250/. was to the Cori. poration, by which great advantages were derived the widows and families of the fellows. Mr. WALDEGRAVE supported the Bill. Mr. PEEL opposed it. Ile thought it would much more beneficial if something like the residen , in Colleges were required, and *with this view con, &red that apprenticeship afforded a much better' of general ability, than oral examination before body of men whatever. The Bill had been pas , from the late to the present Attorney-General, from him to his Honourable Friend (Mr s Courtenr who had adopted it as his own child, but he mi .ay, that his Honourable Friend had not acted a therly part, for he had exposed all the defects of child, without enumerating any one of its supposed perfections. After some observations from Mr. TX GUIST:AT Mr. Boswor,L, the amendment was carried. The was accordingly lost. EMPLUINIENT OP THE pooh. Mr. Alderman WOOD brought forward his tion for promoting the Fisheries, Trade, and Com merce of the United Kingdom. It would, he - • have the effect of finding employment for the , more particularly in Ireland. In the latter count there were already two Bills, but they reqv amendment, for at present they were found so cient that they could not be fully acted upon: object was to bring capital to market by freeing sons from responsibility beyond the amount 4 capital registered. He then moved for leave to , in a Bill to prpmote the employment of the poor fisheries, trade, and manufactures, and for regul7 and enc o uraging partnerships. The SPEAKER suggested,. that such a Bill grow out of the Resolutions of a Committee. Mr. Alderman WOOD then begged to shat motion accordingly. Mr. GRENFELL would not oppose the fele, to a Committee, but thought proper to take the best opportunity of stating his intention of opr the measure in every stage, except as t rela, Ireland, where, as well as on some parts r Continent where capital was scarce, such • tions were held to be beneficial ; but in En) where capital was superabundant, it would be with mischief, and be completely subversive present commercial system. Some further remarks were made by Sir.J, PORT, Mr. FINLAY, and Mr. D. GILBERT ; Mr. Alderman WOOD and Mr. GEENPF.LL in nation, after which a Committee was appoint Monday. 115,669 18 9 231",4013 2 0 11,460 14 3 10,394 7 10 4,164 G ROYAL BURGHS IN SCOTLAND. LORI) ADVOCATE rose, in conform) _ . For Repairing the Damages done to the Sea- wogs at Portstiouth and HasLa, by violent his previous notiee, to »rove for leave to brio ) storms -.-. . 4,000 0 0 Bill to reeelate the ex penditure and to c onil The House - then resumed, and the Report was or- un due a p •- pli c atian of the in Scotland. It was not. revenuei of ihe Royal . dered to be received on Monday. ... his intention, at" thaf BANK RESTRICTIONS. hour, and in the present cOndition of ahe IP . The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER enter at large on, the subject.. The Bill weer, b ought in the Bill to continue the t Restrictions On explain . theenatuve.uf the remedy which it 1 ' Bank Cash Payments. . - ellject to apply. It went-no further than to Sir C. MONCK asked whether, in.. the 1,800,0001. the obsolete laws of that country. It proposed which he now understood was the only surplus of the the accounts of the Magistrates should be ex . - Consolidated Fund, . the 650,0001. received at the the view of the Burghers, and that if • i cert, Bank from different Saving, Banks, were included? portion of these Burghers should agree in - thi The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, city, they should have the power of com 7 that they were not included in the 1,800,0001. alluded againt any misapplication to the Court - of Er t 9, for they were not considered applicable to the re- in that country. But as these provisions rm duction of the National Debt , but as a mere de p osit. p revent the Ma g istrates .engaging in spec, The Bill was then read a first time, and ordered with the Corporation funds, it was further for a second reading on Friday next., to empower any five Burgesses to apply to Mr. GRENFELLinquired whether the Right Ho- of Exchequer, for the purpose of controulin; nourable Gentleman had it in contemp lation to admit penditure. The Learned Lord then moved the Public to the immense profits which the Bank made by the continuation of t he restrictive s y stem ? to bring in his Bill. Lord A. HAMILTON rose for the pui The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER did congratulating the House, that after the not think that it would be for the honour of that Scotland had been for years petitioning the House, or that of the country, to make them partici- —that after a series of gross misapplication pate in the profits produced by the restrictions. porate mismanagement—after reiterated ci The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER of the revenues of these Burghs being dila! brought itethe Bill to regulate the Issues of Country after losses by bankruptcies, in consequence Bank Notes. appropriation—and after all these statement Sir J. NEWPORT asked, whether the stamp which often as made been denied by the Learned 7 this Bill rendered necessary would pay any additional by those with whom he acted, they were duty ? If so, private Bankers would not use it ; and admitted, and the Learned Lord himself the effect of the measure would be, to throw the ward to propose a corrective. For. thirty whole circulation of the country into the hands of Scotland been expecting this boon fram the Bank of England, and thus augment its already of the House o f commons ; yet, no longer ago. enormous influence. last Session, did the Noble and Learned Lord, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, the necessity for its interference. He mu , the Stamp duty would be the same as that which rejoice, that even now there existed a pro now existed, and that it would perhaps be practi- Scotland receiving some portion Of juste cable to enter into a composition for the duty, which hands, and at the hands of the House. He would enable private Bankers to re-issue their notes that from the difference of views on the sue as often as they pleased. existed between him and the Learned Lord Sir J. NEWPORT, alluding to screw had fallen rem edy proceeding from the Learned Lord 'from the Right Hon. Gentleman the day before, re- to very partial relief. The self-election 0 1 .specting the total disappearance of the £2,500,000 gistrates, some of them for lift., yeas tin issued in coin by the Bank, wished to inform him r eiterated in eves y Petition that had been that it had not been remitted , as he seemed to iina- give, to foreign countries. The fact was , t hat at that yet that remained perfectly u ntouched. a; was the relief intended, how was it that period some Bankers, and he spoke with certainty of ed Lord had taken so long a time to apply one with whom he was connected by blood, havin g In t he present advanced state of the Sessi placed full confidence in the assurance given by the now impossible for those who took a mom Right Hon. Gentleman respecting th e resum p tion of I view of the nature of the evil, and of the cash payments, had made preparations for that pur- ought to be applied, to bring the subject 1 pose. With that end in view, the Banker whom he liament. When the subject of the de'ay had mentioned had drawn a large sum from the adverted to in an early part of the Session, Bank of Ireland, which had been paid in coin, and Secretary for the Foreign Department obi: was deposited for the time when cash payments it arose from the necessity of having till should be resumed. I before the Juk;es in Scotland. Ide..(Lord The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER should . ton) wished to know whether in point be glad to find that the instances of such preparations : present Bill was solely his own, or wh had not been rare, and would make some inquiry into , been sulmiitted to the consideration of thi the subject before the Bill had passed through the i The LORD ADVOCATE sail that no House.—The Bill was then read, and ordered for a sponsible for that measure but hiirsel second reading onMondayse'nnight, and to be printed.: however, rattle. ,;.an propose it in its SURGERY REGULATION BI LI,. ! felt it his duty to consult with those w 7 Mr. COURTENAY moved the second reading of ` nature of their situations, were best acq, the as th; q o ble read 'hoar, be br atisfy wouh old they Rear, Then NI by conte is ho- the ii o ersors f sus.? n the his n was the f e was' au h , is un- fusec ertSin viva] Be INSU • this tl - te House tat! ithout f that - t as could Lord d •3 1 3'" swe should wa ! Noble a him, v . :. f• rom signed ▪ He 1. iberr" se: ,tithe 4e it W aS Se :01 7111/it. rd D° h- ftee t he it sctei to t the °. ' ! lie? z • I,i 'i iffectt ple of )1- the age of !1 , . .: i J il t tge of 4 ' I r , *'•• 1 ty the li $ t t 4 ;duals t • 4 , Y 1 oand d Iu t ecund ion of . I , •t - 4 . 1 ' ts still Cot% edgy t I; lid be idenee conii- • .• ter test T pas ea s n e y d Ll, and tenayl, 4 i ' c must 1 d a fa- • 11. ' 1 1l s of his ;pposed ( . '1 ' !AT and Vile Bill . \ ' 4. 11. l ' 1 11;s Mo- .1 1 1 , , '' t d Com- he said, i Cs i i he poor, 1 ,- 1 1: 1 , : 1. country. , s , I required 1 . 4 II I, i [ so deft: I T m: Hit .. 1 . ting per- .. t of the J i - a d . , . .! to brio i ); ~' A „11 poor in i I tgulating . . , ', t\ ; 1, Bill must 4 !. b I 4 "i shape his . . reference n ..., ' e the ears i k's 1 4 . 1 ' c l .‘ opposing related 0 is of the h regida- England, . )e fraught Live ortlte r'..T. NI-r- .1 r; and by . v in e:.pla- t lointed fur 1 . .. . I •, I 4. *li 1 rmitit I :ith I .' ' - I bring in a , miroul the• , 4 / yal Thir b * -hs . t" thar lote , 'tense; to could itself'l • ~ ' it was his • it n to Tes4;ye )posed that. exposl-d.to certain up- 1 J t a*the ne;.e - - I) 'omplaibi:ug CE.xchqv'er '.. might ;not , t ' speculation; 1. • 1 1 . Ler prop6sed . to the Court sling tile ex- , , red for I,em 1 e ' 1 • . purpose - of ' I ; " :he people . of , i 4. that House t • ion and*Cur- ; . ;. d complaints lilapidated— i i , ; nce of undue • ments .h ad . as 4 ted Lori.,, Liod are at length ' il l i ' ail came IL r- t / ty years had ' i ma the justice i Ter ago.than 4.11,0 rd deny .. oust therefore ;, i • " probability of justice at his I l3 • Fle was aware a subject that • .ord, that any .1 i I . ord must lead :I 1 1 1 of the Mt- • ithe great evil -en pi e.citte..l ; 4 \ i . But partial hat the Learr.- ply a rentdi ? 1 . i t 42 , •sion, i. v.-a; nore extend, d ir fl i , the relief that , 'et before I'.t:- 'ay had Le2n ;ion, the Ncbt.e observed tl.at lt the Bill laid ' ll/' , ord A. Ham il.. . 4 int of fact • the 1 wheti.er 'it had ; 1 ; :a .• :. the dueges? i. I no one v.-,as re- self. He Ir..', its crude stat,', • r Avilo, teem the i Lcqualuted -.....b. i 1 40 0, . i • or 1 by had T the ,1( iter SCSea