Star. — London, England, 1825-02-05 00:00:00

peg of tilt Corn tide, the attempt tittlst ruin dui. Ma nufactures—would that the judgment of the same Hon. Member had been equally unbiassed upon the question of that worst of impostures, the Sinking Fund, to support which the Assessed Taxes were continued.— And here he must take the liberty of reading to him his own lecture to another Honourable Member, who, in the last Session, had soared above all in his flight of humanity upon a question wherein be had no private' interest; but upon another question, between the Brewers and the Public, stuck to the golden rule, of every man for himself ; so the other Honourable Member, who had fought like a lion in the cause of the people throughout all the stages of the Corn Bill, turned tail upon the question of a Sinking Fund, to which he could only look with the eye of 4 Loan Contractor.— I I-re lay the root of the evil, which nothing but reform oaild cure; for it was to this feeling of self-interest, in those who held the remedy in their own hands, that all the miseries of Spain. of Ireland, and of suffering hu manity throughout the world were mainly to be ascri. bed. The Right Honourable Secretary bad declared that his Shibboleth was England. Would to Goo it were so, and that he would only prove it in setting that example of public virtue which alone was wanting to raise her to a prouder station than she had yet filled amongst the Powers of Europe. " Ob, England! model to thy inward greatness, Like little body with a mighty heart; What migheat thou do, that honour would thee de, Were all thy children kind and natural!" And what prevented her but that unnatural system of her Government, which had wasted her strength, blasted her character, and reduced her to the lowest state of moral and political disgrace ? For what was her real' situation, and the shoi t answer to all the vain boasting: of her Ministers ? Look to her debt of eight hundred millions, which neither ten years of peace, to.r all die retrenchments forced upon her Government, had one jot diminished; and this was the key to the new system of her policy, wherein the same Ministers who had expended millions upon mil lions to deliver Spain from France, and uphold the li berties of England in the general liberties of Europe, had now forsooth discovered, that her true interest was to stand alone, and (as the Right Hon. Secretary ex pre,sed it), to move within the circle of her own orbit. But for once let him quit his tropes and metaphors, and answer in plain language to the charge of conspiracy against the liberties of his country. The Ministers, in the King's Speech, had again openly boasted of their friendly relations with those Powers, who had as openly declared their hostility to all Constitutional Governments, and proved their intention by their acts in destroying that of Spain? What, then, could be the basis of such friendship but their mutual un derstanding and agreement upon that vital ques tion of public liberty, the existence of which was incompatible with the principles the Holy Alliance stood pledged to establish? and that this was the fact he boldly asserted and as flu mly believed ; whilst of all parties concerned the Ministers of England stood the deepest involved in the guilt. As to the others. with the exception of him whose monstrous abuse of the power to which his brother legitimates had restored him, seemed to have been ordained by PROVIDENCE to mark the folly of their cause, and the justice of the came of the people ; there was not an individual of those exalted personages whose private character, from all he had semi, heard, and believed, he did not respect; whilst he considered their political feelings to be only thkna tuna consequence of the causes which had excited them ; but he could find no excuse for those who, born in the land of liberty, educated in her school, and in debted to her protection for the wealth and honour they had acquired, should now desert her cause, break down the ladder which had raised them, and trample on the people's heads. But, 'Whatever the motives of the par ties, tor which they must answer to their Gon, it was their conduct the people had to look to; and whether the Governments of France and Spain, the Govern ments of the Holy Alliance, or above all, the Govern ment of England, he denounced the *hole as conspira tors against the liberties of mankind, and called upon the ringleaders to answer to the charge. Most gravely and deliberately he accused them of having wilfully neglected that glorious occasion which the return of peace, and the destruction of Bonaparte's power, had afforded of re-establishing the liberties of Europe upcfn a firm basis ; and of setting up a more dangerous and detestable tyranny in its place; and that instead of availing themselves of that dear-bought, but invaluable lesson which the history of the French Revolution had taught both crowns and people, in pointing out to both their true interests; once more, like their prototype Pitt, but with still less excuse, they had conspired with the Powers of Europe against the liberties of the people, to prevent reform in the abuses of their own Government. And let the people look to the progress they had made. Three years since Spain was free : and France boasted of her Charter ; but now, Spain was groaning under a double slavery • France was plainly told by her Ministers she must expiate the crimes of her revolution by returning to her former state; whilst the Ministers of England, who began their part in the performance with invectives against Bourbon treachery, and prayers for Spanish independence, were now praying in their hearts fur the re-establislunant of that system in France, which they found to be the only chance for the conti nuance of their own; f.ir they well knew that peace could not be maintained between the two nations, without a fairer balance of the conditions of the people in both, and that neither tithes nor exces sive taxation could be muck longer imposed on the one without being regenerated in the other. But if the distresses of the people could hoc move the Ministers, let them at least turn their eyes to their own dangers, and the rotten foundation on which their power rested ; for whilst the Govermatnt of France rode triumphant over the people, and found it needless to dupe them longer even with the name of their Charter ; the Ministers of England had no real power whatever, but, like dishonest servants, only kept in place by imposing on the credulity of their master—what better illustration of the strength, courage, and generosity of the nation, contrasted with the weakness, cowardice, and baseness of her Government, than the act of the (tight Honourable Gentleman, who, as one of the peafles had advertised his subscription to the relief of the Spanish Patriots,' from whom, as Minister, he had withdrawn the trifling support the Government had allowed them ; and whilst thus meanly to foreign Powers, what greater proof of their tyranny at bonne, al i the insolence of that faction which usurped the powers of the COO. stitution, and lorded it equally over the Crown and the People, than that the same Sovereign, who had proclaimed the equality of civil and' political rights to all hi s German subjects, was prevented by hia M inisters froze doing the same justice to the Catholic population of his United kingdom. And *hat was their excuse? The danger of the Protestant Religion. But was ever assertion so false, or hypocrisy so great, 2 5 that which pretended to believe it?—but which well knew that the danger was not to the Established Religion. hut to an enor- Mous Church Establishment in Ireland, which required the expense of a lar g e army to support it, in the teeth of all justice and true re ligion, and the seine and feeling of the people. As toCatholic Emus. ciliation, if no other benefit arose from the measure, but the trans. fer of the tithes collected from the Catholic People to the Catholic Church, he should consider it an act of justice and sound policy, and appeal to every argument of the Right Hon. Secretary, upon his motion to enable Catholic Peers to sit in Parliament, to confirm hie own opinion ; and as to others of his pie-bald Cabinet, who would scare the nation with the danger of Catholic Ascendancy, he called =au ar once to put an end to all religious differences, and unite Protestant, and Dissenter, in their country's cause, by pulse* permittin g their own Sovereign to do that by the people al the United Kingdom, which he had done by the people of Hanover. Nothing short of this could give that Menai to Jae Go- , vernment which, under whatever form, was essential to support it ; and if such had been the advancement of general knowledge and education, that this concession bad been deemed necessary to the slaves of a despotic government, to whom the freedom of the press, the ooly real liberty, was still unknown, how much more necessary to that people who, in the establishment of their liberties, beheaded one King, dethroned another, and set up a third, to the exclush.n of the legitimate heir to the Crown, whom the voice of the people declared to hive forfeited his right? and unless Ministers could make up their minds to this measure, which, if not conceded would eventually be forced upon them, they bad better at once drop the curtain upon the farce they had so long been playing in that House, and either shut its doors, or at least march those out of it who dared impeach their imoduct, as the Deputy Manuel was marched out of libe MIA amber. SirJ. NEWPORT most oppose some of the measures that were alluded to in the Speech, and must object to the Address as pledging the House to a specific line of conduct, So far was the Catholic Association from disturbing the peace, that it had contributed mainly to the preservation of tranquillity. It ought to be known when Ministers meant to bring forward measures that so materially affected both England and Ireland, un less, indeed, it was intends d to propose measures for Ireland that Ministers would not venture to propose for this country. Should any Bill be founded on Papers, such Papers ought to be laid on the table of the House. The distinction that had been made between the Catholics of Ireland arid the Catholic Association was unfounded. In 1813, a motion had been made by the present Presi dent of the Board of Control, not then in office, a elative to the Orange Lodges. The motion had been met by the Order of the Day, and was subsequently withdrawn. It was then observed by the Right Hon. Gentleman oppo- site (Canning) that no one had defended those Associa tions, and a Noble Lord, now no more, observed, that the discussion of that night would effectually put them down. But laws were now called fur against them, as well as against the Catholic Association. The laws, indeed, might be equal, but would the execution of them be equal also ?—(Loud cries of Hear, hear). Effectually to remove discontents, you must previously remove their causes—(Hear). All the concessions made to Ireland had been made in times of great public danger. The first of them had taken place when the combined fleets of France and Spain were riding triumphantly in the British Channel, and the second of them had taken place in 1793. A Petition from the Catholics of Ire land that had in one year been rejected with scorn, was on the very next received, and more concessions made than had formerly been asked, because the power of France rendered it dangerous to have disaffection at home. The misgovernment of this country had produced the consolidation of the Catholic population. The Hight lion. Baronet concluded by observing, " Liberavl animam meant r As before the termination of the scene he would probably be no more--(Loud and continued cheers). Mr. Secretary PEEL hoped that he should not be ac cused of disrespect to the Right Honourable Baronet, if he did not follow him through all the topics of his speech, as so many other occasions would occur for delivering his sentiments on the same topics. By voting for the address, no man was pledged to approve of the mea sures afterwards to be brought forward by Ministers. Those measures would be proposed by the Government on its own responsibility. In the course of the night, the Right Honourable Secretary for Ireland would pro bably give notice of those measures. They would be founded on observation of the events which had taken place in Ireland, and were not the consequence of sug gestions from any other quarter. Nothing that he had heard from the other side of the House had changed his opinion as to the necessity of submitting some specific measure against the Catholic Association. He could not believe that the warmest advocate for Emancipa __ Lion would uphold the proceedings of the Catholic As. sociation. Every one who respected the administra tion of justice, and thought that it ought to be pule, must believe that it was greatly endangered by the principles and practice of the Association. Would the House of Commons permit that Association to levy taxes—to interfere in the execution of the laws, and to institute prosecutions? Much had he beard about the Constitutional Association, and of its having arrogated the powers of the Attorney-General, and yet the same persons who were so very earnest in their condemna tion of it, seemed to view with great indifference the same arrogation of powers by the Catholic Association. Every man who sets any value on the popular part of the Constitution ought to protest against the assump tions of the Catholic Association. There were laws against all public bodies representing the people. The Convention had been put down by these laws, and thdugh, through an evasion, this Association might escape their letter, yet they ought not to pass un touched by some other more specific enactments, He could not suppose it possible that this Association received the approbation of the whole Catholic popu lation of Ireland. Surely they could not approve of that Address *MO had been published, and which called upon the people " by the hatred they bore to Orangemen," to folldw a certain line of conduct. When this Address was voted, a respectable Catholic Gentle man present implored them to expunge the passage, but , his proposition was almost unanimously rejected, and the very words stood at this moment part of the Ad dress. He could not believe that the Roman Catholic Laity and Ecclesiastics of IrelAnd entertained towards their opponents and fellow-subjects feelings of such vin dictive hatred. He could not and would not believe it. Ha had often heard it said that the efts of a few were not to be confounded with those of a general body, and now, when attempts were made so to confound things, he could not but feel great surprite. the Hon. and Learned Gentleman (Mr. Brougham) in his speech last night, had alluded to divisions in the Cabi. net, and had said that some individuals would sooner sa crifice their opinions than give up their places, and that they were ready to follow the House and the country in whatever might appear to be the prevailing opinion. He did not wish to speak of himself—EMr. BIM/WHAM here said that he never meant to allude to Mr. Peel]. — He did not wish to separate himself from his colleagues. As for the Lord Chancellor, in spite of all the imputa tions thrown upon him, he would go down to posterity as the most consistent politician that ever held the Great Seal —(Cheers). The whole tenour of the Noble Lord's life contradicted the charges of the Honourable And Learned Gentleman. For himself he should take every opportunity of expressing his opinions on this question, and he trusted the Learned Gentleman would give him credit for sincerity—(Hear, hear, from Mr. Brougham). The Right Honourable Baronet had said that he (Mr. Peel) and the Lord Chancellor were re sponsible for the Catholic Association, and that they had always taunted the Catholics. He was not aware of ever having done so, and had endeavoured to support his opinions by facts and fair arguments. — So should he now call upon Parliament to pat down the Catholic Association, which was engendering strife, and exasperating the people of Ireland. He rejected rt-e aihillon of are gonoirable Member or *estiiiniter (Lcr. Hobhouse), who said that if the Association were put down by law, It would be necessary for the execution of those laws, to re son to military force. He had too good an opinion of the Ca tholics of Ireland to believe this, for they would render obedience to the laws without the interference of military power. Other oc casions would arise, to deliver himself at greater length upon this subject, - and he would trouble the House when they occurred. Sir J. NEWPORT explained. Mr. C. H. HUTCHINSON said, that the Catholic Association ought not to be regarded as the repre sentative of the Catholic Body of Ireland—( Hear.) — It was the representative of the feelings and interests ols the population, but not of the population itself. After the beautiful speech of the Right Honourable Baronet —(Cheers)—who had been for many years the cliam i pion of Ireland—(Hear, hear)—he would not say m on this subject, but begged to be understood as adopt ing all the sentiments which had fallen from the Right Honourable Baronet. It was painful to him to dissent from the Address, which was generally regarded as complimentary to the Throne, but he should do great violence to his own feelings if he suffered the AdJre.s to be voted, without entering his protest against it.— Ministers had put into the Speech that which was not true ; they wieled to register, under the authority 01 both Houses of Parliament, a libel against the Catholics of Ireland—( Hear )—All the valuable parts of our Constitution were gained by Associations similar to the Catholic Association, and this he challe-iged the Right Honourable Gentleman to deny if lie dated. It was said the Association created alarm. With whom? Why, amongst the Honourable Gentlemen oppo-ite, l and the faction which they countenanced in frelmd, and which lived upon the disturhanee of the country. So long as Mr. O'Connell, and other respectable Gen tlemen, continue to trumpet forth the wrongs id the Catholics, just so long would they clone alarm in the breasts of their oppressors. lie deplored anything in the speeches of that Body which rave just gmund of offence to any one, as he had always said, nothing could do the Catholic cause harm but the Catholics themselves. If they continued steadily to proclaim their pieteece, the question would speedily be carried, and every disability, insult, and injury, would be ef• faced from the Statute Book. Until this, there eould be no securitylor the institutions of the country. He pro tested against this declaration of war against Ireland, and he would continue to denounce it from his seat in Parliment at every peril-- (Hear.)—The system pursued towards Ireland, ever since the Union, bad been partial and oppressive; he had constantly called the attention of Ministers to it, but in vain, until very recently. Ile hoped it might continue to improve, and ended with expressing his dissent from the Address. Sir THOMAS LETHBRIDGE said, that be re garded the question of Ireland with great anxiety. He thought, for the sake of Ireland and the Catholics themselves, that the Catholic Association ought to be put down by law. He thanked Ministers for intimating such an intention ; and if they had not done so, the House ought to bate originated such a measure itself. He had been surprised to hear any Gentleman attempt to excuse the acts of the Association, for nothing could be mote inconsistent and unsatisfa:tory than these at tempts: One Gentleman said it was the representation of the whole Catholic population of Ireland ; another said it was not; another that it was the representative of all the Catholics in the Empire. He had read of the English Catholics making common cause with the Associati , n, and thus identified, they must be regarded as one. The Honourable Member for Cork (Mr. Hat- chinson) said they were the representatives, not of the population, but only of the feelings and interests of the population. This was a distinction so refined, that he could not understand it: it was, in fact, a Catholic Parliament; now one Parliament was quite as much as the British Constitution content plated—(Cbeers and laughter)--and he hoped the House would not tolerate the existence of another Parliament—( Hear.) Lord NUGENT began by observing that the Righ: Hon. Secretary of State (Mr. Peel) had been very un fortunate in his parallel, or ratter his attempted pa rallel, between the Catholic and Constitutional Asso ciation. He had taunted that side of the House as having imputed illegality to the Constitutional Asso ciation, and asked why they contended for the legality of the Catholic Association? Did not the Right Hon. Gentleman perceive that this weapon had a double edge? If the Opposition were so inconsistent as to condemn the one and support the other, might it not be replied, Why did not Ministers, now so anxious to put down the Catholic Association, put down, for the same reasons, the Constitutional Association? (Hear, hear!) But they never interfered with the proceedings of the Constitutional Association. In no instance whore a prosecution was commenced by that body, was the Attorney-General ordered to enter a noli prosequi, and when a bill of indictment was found against them, a •erdict of acquittal was entered by order of the Judge. If such Societies were illegal, why was the House to be called on now to pass new laws to suppress them ? Let them be prosecuted in the regular way. With re spect to the union of feeling between the English and Lash Catholics, it was peifectly true. He was autho rised to say that they agreed in feeling and spirit with the Catholics of Ireland, and concurred with them in their policy. He was instructed that he should have to present a Petition shortly from the Catholics of Great Britain, with nearly three times as many signatures as any one from the same body had ever had before. This proved that the Catholics of Great Britain were not deterred by any backwardness and time-serving, from petitioning, not only for themselves, but for their suf fering brethren in Ireland. If they had not d. ne so, he should have regretted it as evincing a want of sym pathy, a want of spirit, and a want of faith, with their brethren in Ireland. (Hear). Mr. Secretary PEEL explained, that he did not mean by the word illegal, to express anything beyond the unconstitutionality of the Ccrastitutiensi Association, because none of the Gentlemen opposite had pronounced it to be clearly illegal. Lord NUGENT explained. Mr. DENMAN was glad that the debate had gene on with such animation, and lie trusted that it a mea sure of contravention were adopted against the As•.ocia lion, that other Associations would experience the full benefit of such a measure, according to the tenour of the King's Speech. If the Association should turn out to be contrary to law, why should the House legislate to put it down ? He hoped the Ministers would not re sort to coercive measures, which usually began in cruelty and ended in injustice. He hoped they would not put it down by violence, merely because it was hostile to the Government, which had never wagged a toagve against the Bridge-street Association. No; that As sociation was encouraged and defended, although it was an imperium in imperio—although it usurped the authority of the Government, and violated the spirit of the Constitution ; yet, becaut.e it playeJ the game of." Power!" Power winked at its pa oceed ings. As for the Catholic Association of Ireland, he could better defend their conduct than he could that of that House—th•t former acted in self-Jefeace while scandalously run down; but the latter were committing . • •-• • an outrage egrainit those to whom they denied The House of Commons had said, that Catholic-Emah; cipation must eventually be carried, but it was difficult to lix the period when they would consent to its tacit). tir'. They were then exposing themselves to all Other Powers, who might attempt to practice on theii discon; tent. It must pass but he would ask what bloodshed might not iirtervene from dell-ring the reasonable redress of heavy grievances ? The present discus sion might be 'compared to that which occurred at the commencement of the American war; and he would now predict that they were.about not to enter into a similar war, but to bring America to their owr, doors. When the Hon. Baronet said that he represented the People of England, while throwing down the gauntlet against the Association, he begged to remind him that lie (Nlr. 1) I also knew something of the People of Eng land ; and to the iAnorant only could be ascribed such sentiments as those he stated. With regard to the measiiies to be brouyht forward, he could only sty, that be would be at his post, and oppose thew in etc' y stio.ie of their progress. One Metnber had said; that 1:e should expect the proofs of that which had been stated in tha..Addiess ; he, however, understood from the II sri. Secretary that evening, that no proofs were to be adduced ; and that without them the sword was to be unsheathed and the scabbard thrown away ; but .1 hope of conciliation should by possibility be enter; rained lie trusted that the Member for Hertford would n..t give his powerful support to the measures against the Catholics, now that no proofs were to be ad d,ced ; at least no other than that Proclamation which bad been made such use of, and which he entirely ap proved of, with the single exception of the adjuration passage, which had been turned to such good account on the preceding evening. They were to have no other groundwork for their enactments than Newspaper re port, which the Honourable Gentleman, the Attorney- General for Ireland, would tell them they should be cautious of trusting to. Much had been said about the interference of the Priesthood, although in this country there were Societies for the Prosecution of Felons, and other societies which were open to all classes of his Majesty's subjects to become members of; and why were Priests to be excluded from all rights of citizen ship ?—(Hear, hear). He had heard of the thunder on the preceding evening, but here was Jupiter about to use his thunder against the Catholics, without hearing them in their defence. He (Mt. Denman) hoped there would be so division on the Address ; but if there should be, he could not eansckatiously approve of it. With respect to the Association, he would say, that it was the least formidable mode of proceeding .which the Catholics could have adopted ; and to check its progress would have a peculiar tendency to aggravate their distresses, irritate their feelings, and render the situation of the empire infinitely enure precariuus—( Loud cheering). Mr. It. MARTIN bore testimony to the sentiments of the Catholics of Galway in particular, and of Ireland generally, which were closely identified in feeling with the Catholic Association. That Association was given birth to almost entirely by the Chancellor of England. The Catholics of Ireland could not but reprobate those who had refused to do that for the loyal Catholics of England which had been done for themselves, whose loyalty was much more equivocal. They concluded that the man who could act thus, would not hesitate, if he dated, to re•enact the Popery Laws, and once more deprive them of those privileges of which they were Lhen happily in possession. Tile lion. Gentleman then con tendel that the Catholic Priesthood claimed no such power u that of the remission of sins; their form of doing so was nearly the same as that of the Church of England, and was, in common parlance, " If you repent, I forgive you." lie trusted nu violent measures would be resorted to against the Association. Si: H. PAkNELL wished to give his testimony as to the feelings of the Catholics of Ireland, and he c Auld assure the House that they placed the most implicit confidence in the Association ; the most perfect union prevailed in order to support it, and the Catholic Nobi lity were large subscribers to its funds. The Hon. Se cretary for Foreign Affairs had rested his whole case on the fact, that there was no identification beta een the Catholic People and the Association; but such was not the fact, and identified as they were, in reality, be hoped that Minis. ters would beware of the extent to which they were driving matters in that country. The Catholics hitherto had met not only with de nial, but a new mode was about to be adopted, and aggression was to be added to their other grievances. Mr. M. FITZGERALD (Knight of Kerry) had never estimated highly the knowledge possessed by Ministers with respect to Ireland, but in no former instance had that ignorance been se gross as was at present displayed. Great danger did certainly attach to the Catholic Asso ciation of Ireland, for if it was not in law a representa• tion of the Catholics, it was in feeling. The adherence to it by all classes was undivided, and it was therefore pregnant with danger, for they were numerous, being no less than six millions, and possessed feelings which no honest Englishman could condemn—but he would ask, was that danger to be increased by driving them to desperation ? and yet such he feared would be the case. On no occasion had he ever addressed that House with such desponding feelings as at that moment, understanding, as be did, that it was the intention of Ministers to put down the Association at all hazards. —Under these impressions he would be dishonest if he suffered that night to pass without entering his protest against that portion of the Address recommending sum mary measures against the Association. Much had been said of the Catholic rent, which had been deno minated revenue, although the mighty sum of £9OOO formed the extent of their funds. The Methodist confer ence collected sums to which that was a mere trifle; and as to influence, they shewed the extent' to which it could be exerted in the case of the Missionary Smith.— He had heard with awe the close of the speech of his Honourable Friend, (Sir J. Newport) who predicted that the projected mea sures would be regretted when he should be no more—a period which that House and the country ulald have reason to regret; and he fully coincided in that prediction, viewing the Catholic cause henceforward as completely hopeless. Mr. BROUGHAM rose for the purpose of correct ing a misapprehension which it seemed existed with respect to what he had said on the preceding evening. tie did not say, as he was supposed to have done, that the Catholic Association assumed the representation of the whole Catholic body, or indeed 4 any body but themselves. He was perfectly aware that if they had done so, they would have rendered themselves liable to suffer the penalties of the Convention Act, the whole of which subject had been fully discussed in 1811. Ile had purposely and carefully qualified the tetras in which h- spoke of the Association, end be said, as the fact was, that they virtually represented the great body of the Catholic. of Ireland. Mr. BUTTERWORTH begged to contradict most explicitly the assertion of the Hon. Member for Kerry, respecting the fund raked by the Methodist Conference. Tne whole cf that was voluntarily subscribed. Tl.e members of the Society were influenced by no com pulsion. There were many persons of the same sett who did not subscribe. The Hon. Member must have been very imperfectly informed on the subject on which he had spoken, as appeared by his allusion to the case of the Missionary Saab, as that individual did not