Star. — London, England, 1818-02-18 00:00:00

PARLIAMENTARY PROCEEDINGS. HOUSE OF LORDS, FEBRUARY 17. . - - - The Loftp CHANCELLOR (being detained by other im tortant -eens) &Tint take hit seat on the Woolsack ontil, nearly half-past four o'clock. After prayer were read (by the Bishop of ILLANDATO, some pelente blishieffinas dispoted'isf, and a few Orders, on Petitions, made with respect to the hearing of certain Appeals. After some time had dapped, Jain-Bsoopm, accomganiedby..ieveral Mettiken, brought up from the Commons, the Thirty Millions Exchequer Bills, and the Malt and Pension Duty Bilil,.whick'were respectively read the first time. No other business being before the House, their Lordships adjourned till to-morrow. HOUSE OF COMMONS. • . . General THORNTON postponed his motion respecting the 95th and 30th of Charles IL on the subject of Transubstantia tion to Thursday, the 16th of next April. • Mr. WROTTFSLEY moved for Copies-of all Memorials and Statements of Charitable Donations, delivered into the Offices of Clerks of the Peace, to the latest-period, since the last returns had been made.—Ordered. Mr. LUSHINGTON presented Papers respecting the Rus sian Lean.—lAM on the table. ' A Return of the average prices of Wheat, Oats, and Barley, for the year 1817, was ordered to be laid before this House. Mr. MARSH gave notice, that he should move next Friday tilt some compensation be made to the High Bailiff of West minster, for expenses incurred during some late Elections. • Mr. LUSHINGTON brought in the Annual Bill of Indern- Mty.—Read a first time, and ordered for a second reading to morrow. Mr G. WARRENDER presented the Ordinary Estimates of his Ma' y's Nary for the year 1818.—Laid on the table, and o to be printed. Sir R. PEEL gave notice, that as a Committee would delay the business too long, he should ask leave next Thursday to bring in a Bill to regulate the working hours of persons employed in cotton manufactures. Mr. CURWEN thought this the most speedy mode, also the most desirable, as a great deal of confusion now existed among manufacturer fromtbelr not knowing what course to adopt. Mr.`LYTTLETON gave notice, that on Thursday next he should move certain Resolutions respecting the Lottery. Mr. CALCRAFT moved that a new Writ be issued for the Borough of St. Alban's, in the room of Joseph Halsey, deceased. Mr. HOLME SUMNER postponed his motion respecting. the Cit Funds to this day se'inught. Mr. RAMMERSLEY presented a Petition from the Execu tors of the late Francis Franco and James Dubois ' of Grace. church - street, stating that they were creditors of the Frenck Go. vemnsent, to a great amount, in consequence of the property of the deceased, in France, having been sequestrated in 1793, and phying for relief under the Convention signed with France in November 1815, for indemnifying British subjects.-.-Read and laid on the table. NORTHERN CIRCUIT. Mr. M. A. TAYLOR called the attention of the House and of his Majesty's Ministers to a subject on which there could be but one feeling and one opi nion. For no one could maintain so monstrous a proposition, as that of excluding from the ordinary Administration of the law the four Northern Coun ties. Gentlemen need not be told that Commissions of General Gaol Delivery and Nisi Prius went twice every year through every part of the Country, to Wales and to Scotland, with the exception of the Counties of Durham, Northumberland, the Town and County of Newcastle, Westmoreland, and Curd berland, where they went only once. Yet those Counties had a mass of population, trade, and wealth, far more considerable than most of those which were more favoured. Neither could it be said that in such a population fewer crimes were likely to be commit ted. They could not plead such a happy exemp tion. The effect of the present system was to keep indivi fuels In confinement before trial for ten, and sometimes twelve months. Could this be tolerated in a civilized country, and under a Constitution like ours? It was true that many questions of naviga tion might be changed to London, and thus encum ber the Court of King's Bench ; but in local actions the injury was incalculable. If a landlord com menced an action of ejectment against his tenant, he might remain three years before he could obtain pos session. It might be said that those Counties had not petitioned Parliament, or made any application to the Executive Government on the subject. But from whom was the application to come? Not from the persons confined in gaol, who, if they applied to the Secretary of State for the Home Department, would be told to wait for the operation of the laws of their country, or if they came to Parliament with their Petitions, would have them laid on the table, and little else done for them. Besides, had not many in jurious practices continued to exist for a considerable time, and to be acknowledged injurious, before any regular application had been made for their removal? Had it not been the case with the delays in Appeals in the House of Lords and in the Court of Chan cery, which had been long confessed to exist before any and a weak attempt was made to remedy them? In this age, in which our population was double, and our wealth and commerce fourfold, we had only the same Twelve Judges to transact the whole legal business of the country as in the time of Elizabeth. —He would not break this charm of the Twelve Judges, if it were not necessary ; but their task had grown Herculean, and all the Courts wanted relief. The causes of London and Middlesex alone amount ed to at least 500, and yet there was only one Judge at Nisi Prius, and four Judges did the business of the whole Term. Some relief had last year been afforded, by a Bill brought forward in this House, to the Court of Exchequer, but that of the Old Bai ley was overwhelmed with business. Formerly its Sessions used to last only from the Wednesday after noon to the Saturday evening, but now every one of them lasted nearly a fortnight. The only effectual relief must proceed from the Legislature. It had -n hinted to him that the establishment of another Vestminster-hall, with a criminal and civil like that of the Court of King's Bench, ewer the purpose which he had in view.— an establishment would occasion a large 'id as suitors could not be forced to attend in might be deserted, and the other not His plan was different, and had as yet ..inunicated to no one. There was an Officer Court of Exchequer, who might be rendered useful by being brought forward. He Cursitor Baron. That office was gene ra, instead of a pension, to persons who tel situations abroad. It was now filled of great abilities, both in the law and in laron Maseres, and fully able to perform of a Judge. He proposed that this office, of which were now insignificant, should ed a firm and efficient office, and that its should be forthcoming to go on the Circuit 'Ye Old Bailey. His present salary was rear, so that, by putting him on the footing it would only occasion as additional ex pease of 3000/. per annum. He should also propose the creation of a similar offic.e in the Court of King's ;Bench, still keeping *up the charm of the Twelve Judges. This second Corsi= Baron should take upon himself the whole Bail business during the ' Teem, awl should also be effective for the Old Bai ley and Nisi Prius The Honourable Gentleman then repeated several statements which he had made when the House was less fully attended on a fatter occasion, to shew the material inconveniences and in jury which arose to individuals from the present state of the Circuit in the Norshern . Counties. He contended that the Judges irould be so much re lieved by the adoption of his plan, that they would have time to hold the Assizes twice a . -year in those Counties, and concluded by moving—" That an humble Address be presented to his Royal Highness the Prince Regent, praying that he be graciously pleased to issue Commissions of Oyer and Terminer and General Gaol Delivery, for the Counties of West moreland, Cumberland, Durham, Northumberland, and the Town of Newcastle and County, twice every year, and also Commissions of Assize and Nisi Prius, and that this House would make good any expente to meet the• same." • The ATTORNEY-GENERAL did not rise to en, ter into any discussion of the arguments which the .Honourable Gentleman had so loosely addressed to the House. He had expected . some motion to relieve' the Northern Counties from the difficulties to which .they had been described as being subjected, and if that had been done, though he did not say he should have assented to it, he should have thought it worth while for the Legislature to enter into an inquiry on the subject. He objected to the present motion, as it would cause too sudden an alteration in the esta blished administration of justice, ar.d no reason had been given to prove the elistence of any emergency which could justify such a change. No doubt it was in the power of the Crown to issue a Special Com mission, when a ground had been shewn for such a proceeding. But that had not been done in the pre sent case, and as the subject had not received the full consideration which its importance required, he should move the previous q'uestlon. Sir CHARLES MONCKE was astonished at the course .adopted by the Honourable and Learned Gen tleman. From the. sentiments which he had expres sed, the House mast have expected that he would come forward with an Amendment to the Motion, and not proposed the previous question. The incon venieticies and injury described by his Honourable Friend, really existed in the northern counties, whilst other counties, like that of Cornwall, though equally distant from the capital, had their Assizes twice a year. He wished his Honourable Friend had only proposed to extend the usual Assize Commission in the Spring to the Northern Counties. As to the ex • nse, he trusted the House would not shrink from doing justice to the country for the sake of two or three thousand pounds, when a few days since it had voted 400,0001. to purchase the Abolition of the Slave Trade by Spain in two years—a vote, from which he rejoiced he had dissented. Lord CASTLEREAGH owned that he etas not prepared to assent to the Motion of the Honourable Member at present. Neither did he think that the House could know sufficiently of the subject, to ven ture all at once on the address proposed. The Ho nourable Gentleman had opened the way in which he thought the grievances complained of could be re medied, but he (Lord Castlereagh) felt totally inca pable to give any opinion on the subject now. If he had moved for an inquiry into that branch of the administration of justice, there might have been no objection to his motion, but he had rushed at once to what ought to have been the end, and not the com mencement of his proceedings. Mr. M. A. TAYLOR explained that he only wished to know in what shape the House would coisider it proper to entertain his Motion. Mr. BROUGHAM rejoiced that all sides of the House were agreed as to the necessity of no longer denying justice to the four northern counties, and the only difficulty which remained related to the mode in which the ;notion should be brought for ward. He urged the propriety of withdrawing the original one, and of immediately supplying its place by one for a Committee'to inquire into the best means of extending an equal portion of the administration of justice to all parts of the Empire. Mr. TAYLOR then withdrew the original motion, and said, that as the new motion he intended to sub mit required some particularity in the wording, he should postpone it till to-morrow. been hinted Court in We jurisdiction, might answi But such an expense, ani • it, one Cow relieved. I- been cornmr in the Court eminently meant the rally given had held lel by a man a science, Bat the duties o the duties a be rendered possessor sh and in the 1000/. a-yea of a Judge, . st k • • '• ' ; re s t ' - `• f PETITIONS. Lord FOLKESTONE presented a Petition from J. Leach, weaver, of —, in Lancashire, which being read, complained of the harsh treatment he had re ceived during his detention under the Habeas Corpus Suspension Act. The tenor of the Petition was si milar to those of the other persons lately discharged. Ordered to lie on the table and be printed. Mr. BROUGHAM said he had io intreat the at tention of the House to a Petition from another of these persons, the victims of arbitrary power, and he trusted the statement he had to make would be listened to and deemed worthy of investigation. It was from John Scholes, lately the keeper of a re spectable public-house at Wakefield, who, in July, was arrested under a warrant from Lord Sidmouth, and conveyed to the Castle of Cambridge, whew he remained till January. when he was liberated without learning any cause for his detention. By this pro ceeding, the unfortunate person had been completely ruined. He had a certificate from a surgeon, stating that his confinement had been the cause of a serious illness. Now it would appear, that the only cause this poor man had been able to discover for the treatment he had experienced, was, that he had been charged by Oliver and Bradley, with having been concerned in public meetings. He, however, only knew Oliver by coming to his house with Mitchell, and their representing themselves as two delegates from London, engaged to promote Parliamentary Refor m ; he stated in the Petition, that Oliver was exceedingly active in stimulating these proceedings ; and be told the Petitioner, that it was in vain to con tinue petitioning, for nothing would do but having recourse to physical force. His answer, on hearing such language was, that he was disgusted with it, and he threatened to inform against Oliver. Hence (said the Honourable Gentleman) his arrest—(hear, Jules,)—for Mr. Oliver no sooner found himself in a state to be informed against, than he called a meet ing at Scholes's house. The Petitioner, hay. ever, denied that such a meeting had ever been held there, or that his appointment ever had his approbation—, and it would be found that information hail bees obtained of Oliver himself; complaining to others of the slackness of Scholes, in refusing to hold this meeting. He denied that he was ever at any meet ing, except one for obtaining Constitutional Reform. The Honourable Gentleman continued to argue that this man's account ought to be listened to, as he had filled the responsible situation of Deputy Constable for three years, and also a Collector of the Assessed Taxes, and was extremely active in apprehending the persons charged with Luddism, insomuch that the provisions of the Watch and Ward Act were not deemed necessary to be put in execution. For this he received the thanks of the Magistrates and the Deputy Lieutenant—(hear, hear.) He, Mr. Brougham, had further to state, that he had communicated on this man's case with a most loyal and respectable Magistrate, who said that he had made enquiry into it, and though he was at first prepossessed with an unfavourable opinion of him, on account of his having been apprehended, yet he was now tho roughly convinced that he no more entertained de signs unfavourable to the State than Mr. Wilber force—(Loud pals of laughter,)—or the most inno cent man in the kingdom. He, Mr. Brougham, had only to add, that this poor man was exceedingly mo derate in the prayer of his petition, for he only prayed that they would take his hard case into considera tion, and give him such redress as they might deem ft ; and also that the House would interpose to get returned to him the papers and an old memorandum book, which had been taken from him at the time he was apprehended, and which last contained the do cuments to prove a debt of 17/. due to a poor widow, without which she could not recover it--(laughing.) He was far from regarding the case with such sort of levity, a case that exposed such abominable treat ment, and was so moderate in its prayer. The Pe titioner did not ask for any investigation; he called for no vengeance on his persecutors ; but this was no argument why he (Mr. Brougham), should not entreat the House to pay just attention to the whole of its convents.—The Petition was then brought up, read, and ordered to lie on the table, and be printed. Mr. DOUGLAS gave notice, that on Thursday he would move for an Account of all Fees and Emolu ments received for Pardons under the Great Seal. PETITIONS OF WARD AND-OTHERS. Lord FOLKSTONE, on rising to make his pro mised motion, moved that the Petitions of F. Ward, the Evanses, J. Stewart, J. Baguley, and others, al ready before the House, be entered as read, which being done, the Noble Lord said, his motion would be founded on all these Petitions, though he would principally fix his observations to the first, which was that of F. Ward, and he should conclude with mo ving, that this and any others of the same kind be referred to a Committee. When the House had con sidered all the circumstances detailed in these Peti tions, he hoped they would pause before they would grant a Bill of Indemnity to shield • those who had been the authors of so much misfortune to indivi duals ; for, if he understood the Noble Lord oppo site on a former evening, the Bill of Indemnity was said by him to be due by Parliament to the Mi nisters of the Crown, and was not intended to arise out of the Report of the Secret Committee. But be fore the House granted a Bill of Indemnity to Mi nisters, it was necessary to see that the people had not been damnified by their measures; and on this ground it was, that he wished for a Committee to examine into,the allegations in the Petitions. Within the last 120 years the Habeas Corpus Act had been suspended ten or twelve times, yet there was only one precedent of a Bill of Indemnity, and this one was of their own making ; for, although the same in dividuals did not occupy precisely the same situations as they did then, yet they were the same persons who were now about to apply for it; therefore they had set the precedent. They acted wrong in the first in stance, and now they take their own conduct as a precedent for acting so again. Last year the House were told there were great tumults and an evil dis position through the country, and they were called on to suspend the Habeas Corpus Act, and though they were called on to prove the truth of their asser tions, they never did. The only instance of evils arising from the proceedings of ill-disposed persons, to make the suspension necessary, was the breaking out in Derbyshire. This was followed by the trials, and some persons were convicted; but no other in stance to call for it had been pointed out. But it was not so much to the nature of the Petitions, as the manner in which the Ministers of the Crown had exceeded their powers, that he wished to call the at tention of the House, for if they had not abused those powers, they had no occasion to ask for a Bill of In demnity; and it was evident they had violated the law in every respect. The suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act gave them no new power to inflict pu nishment on the people; they were only to appre hend them under the warrants of the Secretary of State, and to keep them in custody, if it were not convenient immediately to bring them to trial. But they might look in vain for any other power granted to them under the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act. There were regular forms for taking up the people ; they were not to be committed to gaol by order of Ministers, and be told, there you may lay as long as we like. There were regular forms of commitment, as every Gentleman knew who was in the Commission of the Peace. They knew the law, and yet, it appeared, its forms had not been adhered to. He should not dispute the power of the Secre tary of State to apprehend persons in such a way, but he would say, that it was undoubtedly an usur pation—(hear, hear, hear,)—known only within these one hundred and fifty fears, or from the time of King William, when one of the Judges, on a parti cular occasion, said, that he conceived the Secretary of State had the power to administer an oath, be cause he had the power of committing. It was an undoubted usurpation, because before that period no such power did exist. Then how had it arisen ? It was a perfect anomaly in the Constitution, and ought to be put an end to. He could not find any Statute which detailed the particular forms to be gone through before the Secretaty of. State, or that they were different from the ordinary forms in cases of felony and inferior offences. A Justice mu s t, b e f ore commitment, take an examination on oath, and trans mit it to the proper Court before which the offence is to be tried, and the Secretary of State should be I bound to take the same precaution, weft in a case of treason, by which security is given that its r , ; ,,,. force or violence shall not be used. B ut now peared such undue force had been used ; and tA respect to the case of the Petition in questio n , appear that the proceedings originated with th e gistrates of Nottingham, who began by searchi xg Petitioner's house, and refused to shew their w ar ,•,,„ and that the man was soon afterwards carri e d', Orford. He had been told that great exag were contained in the Petitions ; and he unic ,.;,. tit possible there might be ; but he could not k{ ? • serving, that the Secretary of State might gi ! order with respect to these people, to preve.o i 's t y known how they were treated ; and he had cert,-' done all he could to prevent the Magistrxt rt - 1 seeing whether they were ill-used or not---(hec% if they were put in irons, he had exceeded th e therefore these people might feel sore and ex pe : si; chagrin. But they were certainly cundemnej Secretary of State to solitary confinement-4.... which was beyond the power given hi m b y t:, t .* and which, in the opinion of many Gent/err a punishment not inferior to death itseli. Trt Lerd, to prove his argument, read a case 1%7. i Journals of the House respecting Lord Castier l who being committed to the Tower in 1669, ••, 1 charge of high treason, and being a Mem b er House, demanded to be called on to make :;, plaints. He was accordingly brought 2p. V complained that he had been . committed ti s : ,E :z .,. confinement, and desired to have h i: serv.z zi 6 : i t him, and his liberty in the prison. Tne H orto consequence, came to a series of resoh.:y.as, itl:e rw . ing him his demands, and appointing z C...- 2 . to bring in a Bill for the better reg.....a.ic... :.-1 berty of the Subject. The Attorr.ty- ( J , .7.rr.1 likewise ordered to prosecute P. 11 ; .'7: ... 7, - I.r. Keeper of the Tower, for ill usage to cerui::•it,. (hear, hear.) He hoped, therefore, t:'.c P.ct:ie. 7. appoint a Committee to inquire into ...re abllsel:. tioned in these Petitions. He should ;:se 1 .-... from the Atto rn ey-General what pc-ye:- ,r. that could get these persons, once ccrnn.:te.L ,:-... jail without trial? He believed there vszF r..- : . . .. on earth could do it without a violation of or his Majesty's pardon. Their own rec , : was an inferior sort of bail, and then it fol;, this mode of getting them out was as was unjust, by leaving them with a stigma on character, which, if they had been they would not have sustained. High tit 7 the only offence which the law declared be bailed; therefore, if it were true that th... :,. were committed on suspicion of that c1i.7... : were not capable of being let out on bail c.,f am and thus they must have been set free cunt re r law. The Noble Lord repeated his arguments.' no new power had been given to llin,t,.:s or Suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act, _lra/ c--...:.... ded, that if a man had been kept in prise' a 1 1.441 year, as be might have been in 11 esunoT!.ir.; tf being committed just after the Assizes and then turned out, he would, on bring:-4: tion, and not being able to prove the fa's. costs to pay, and get no remedy. iv:r nity of defending himself. The ought to take the subject seriously up. z 7.2 ^. over such violations of the liberty of r.'.e had been complained of, that all if.. 7eaact the Secretary of State had been directed viimst pas friendless people, and sot against gentler-en - ye made speeches ; but he thought the tlesnan would now see why :Ministers had mini their measures to such people—it was is wanted victims—(hear, hear.) But if they !!... ted their efforts against Gentlemen sv':lo the law, they would not have submitted to out in thissOrt of way, but would have noise ; while the poor people, it might ensi:: posed, would be glad to get their liber.y z terms. He hoped the House would entertain don, that the petitioners might be able to themselves; and he wished that inquiry mil*. made into the character of F. Ward, that it inferred what reliance might be placed on hii gations. He knew that the doctrine of cons.an men innocent till they were found guilty. hai - .1 been exploded in that House. The Habeas Cc Act had been suspended in March ; but he ra contend that it was improper to take ep pez,pi this manner, unless something more was agairtql than mere suspicion. But this very dangerou , had not been taken up by a warrant from the tary of State ; and if he should turn cut to be character, he had, according to our ;axis, right to justice as if he were a good one. 0:.! whole, he thought it absolutely necessary that: House should inquire into the allegatioric d te.li I titian, particularly as to the mode in which vyr . ..: had been treated and discharged. He sl.c.:a fore move " that a Committee be appciii:ea cs mine into the truth of the allegations cont.i.sei Petition, and report their opinion thereon.- Lord CASTI2EREAGH . said, on riFing r 7110 some observations on the motion of the NJ! , :eI.A he must first ask whether this motion were cot , :s with the notice he had given t7i the Rau.c ! As A understood the Noble Lord, he said it \re: A 5 e petent to him, if the House granted him t1 .. .e Itc- . "1 to inquire into the L,.zgations cf that Pe...Acr. 0 he did distinctly understand him to near. ~ e t*:•-1 the case of Ward. But though he !-.ad a:::: , :J 0 course, by taking all the Petitions f,;r his . ..--.:.si.:i. not follow that he (Lord Castlereagh) s:T.:.:1 ,11 his-intention of offering some obscrva . ..tris case of Ward; nor should he hesitate tc cpr motion of the Noble Lord on the subject t.:::' , :/' sent Petition, as he should distinctly and s, - .:•:= . * on all the others. As to the Bill of IndAr.r.: . though the Noble Lord had attached Frmt.: - gently to this subject, he had not been acc.:; , his researches ; for he had stated that c: - I.: c•:" , cedent existed, which was made by the pe:9; -- .1 in Parliament, for their own protection. 1'.:e ...' Lord must allow him to set him right. 'e:...:' should do by stating the converse of his prop ,:', But he apprehended he should be much more co! if he called on the Noble Lord to shew itn: , - .:1 case of the Suspension of the Habeas Corplis •I'• which there w - as not a Bill of Indemnit - . would refer back to King William's time, he find that there were then passed no less thal Bills of Ir.deninity. He %%add find also were passed in the rebellions of 1715 and in short, that they invariably followed even Nr tii%)ll of the ll4beas Coipus Act.-(ilr3r,