Star. — London, England, 1805-05-14 00:00:00

ear, there retlrizi;ens were to cootinne for ever. I nave thought it incumbent or. me to quote fo rerpeCt: ed en authority, bee:tore, when I hear that the higher of the clergy affect to entertain alum for the Ettahlithment, it is ;wooer :o have it undertlood that o,ie who is fo well known as a friend to that Ettabhihrnent, and who is diaingufhed by his know ledge on lubje3s of that defeription, did not antici pate any extraordinary danger from the meafure which it is my prefent object to recommend. Dil. milling then this part of the rubjeCt, I go on to con fider another objection drawn from the particular time at which the meafure is to he brought forward. For my own part,viewing the lubjeCt as I do, I really cannot conceive that any time would be improper tor introducing it to the confideration of this Houle. however, I take all the circumstances of the vale into coniidetation, I cannot but think the (ier :ion ft far from having been prematurely dirculTed, i t eight in propriety to have been agitated immedi aely alter the great meafure of the Union was carri• ed in this country and in Ireland. It is needlefs for Inc n. w, Sir, to enter into any dilcutlion of the po licy of that meafure. I (toted the rounds on which I wag decidedly hod:le to it, and I have hitherto teen n o reason to change that opinion. Whether, how e •er, the measure tit: right or wrong, I do fay that if the expectations of the Roman Catholics of Ire land were railed by tile view of the confequences which v.:te to follow that event, their expectations tooth: not to have been difippoinol. It was cer tainly held nut to the Rumor. Catholics, that if the Union a c carried, a period would aro ive when the te(iriion ceder which they laboured would be removed, and their rights as citizens and men would he reamed. Here ajotin I am called to take no tice of an ob . : I:onion :Tahiti the Emancipation, by the apalicattea r,f practice againit theory. I confefs, Sir, I have always Leen, and never (hall ceafe to be, an advoceve for pradice above theory, properly under ttaad ant wifely applied. Though I admit this, let me not tioderitood as at all admitting the princi tar, di tt leeetity is more e xpedient as applicable to the ati'airs of Ireland, than raeatures of wile concilia tion ill!CI liberal policy. I know it may he laid, that under the vigorous tylleal ad - tpted by Government, raw to the act:el:ion of his pi etent the tran qoiility of lo:Lind was pre.erved ; that in both the rebellions cf 11715 and 1745, the Catholics of Ireland teak no part in a !trugglc which had for its princi lad rbjeCt to place a Catholic Prince on the Throne. I ma) he told alto, that from 1793 to 7798, was, in bele:l2, a .`cent of conflant infurreChon, and that at the latter pctiod a defperate effort was made to thake off all connection with the Government or Legiflazure of this Country. Sorry indeed, thmild I he if loch a reprefentation could not be &tif f-40:Lily refuted ; for otlierwife we should be com pelled to admit, that a fyilem of coercion was the malt expedient for keeping down the fpirit of dif content, among a people ;—that the grand princi ples of liberty were to be let afide, and that flavery was to bear (way in a nation profeffing to be free. If perfecution were to he the only medium through which we can retails Ireland, then, Sir,,it would indeed become a lamentable alteraative••whethei it ought to be totally abandoned or retained by fuch n;eans as tlosfe I have now defcribed. I fee no need lity, however, for retorting to fuch a delperate cont ruction of the circumliances of Ireland, when it is fo eafy to account for the (late of Ireland from a 793 to 1798 on very fatisfadory principles.— reland during that period was certainly expofed to vet y peculiar difficulties, and it is furely needlefs for me to fay, that they were greatly augrueated by the circomitances of the French Revolution. I need not ronivid the Houle, that the inhabitants of the North of lieland had long been dirtinguilbed above every other part GI the population by their fuperior induf try, Intelligente, and wealth, though it is notorious they ware rot equally remarkable for their attach men: to Eoglith conne&iem. Previous to the French Peevolution the Catholics had no bonds of mutual union with this paet of the It ifh population. Oa the contrary, they were kept afender by the (hiking cot - traricty of their religious creed. It was the French Revolution that united thefe two heterogencus bodies. , It was a Inling of what they conceived common op proffion ;hat kept them together during the delperate flrug,gle which the Rebellion gave rife to.—But, Sir, this is not the only view of the cafe to be taken into confaderation. The Houle cannot have forgot the cir cumaances of Lord Fitzwilliam's adminitiration. Did he not hold out to the Catholics of Ireland the pro filen of complete and abfolute emancipation ? I know a dooht was ttarted how far he was authorized by the Minitters here to give fuch a pledge to the Catholics. Without now entering on the eifcuffinn of this point, it is tofileient to fay, that the Lord Lieutenant of that day, after having made this ;ledge, was recall ed, and that a motion for following up that pledge, was 101 l in this Houle. The Catholics, upon fee. keg all their hopes fruarated, all their bell found ed tereCtations dilappointed, were doubtlefs tsar. perated hi no ordinary degree. Was it nothing, Sir, that a pledge fo folemnly given was neglected ? Was it not natural that high expo Cations difappointed terminated in defpondency, and that this feeling fug gelled the unfortunate idea of connexion with France, which at no former period of the laa century had willed ? We are told, however, in all probability with the view of aggravating the guilt of the Catholics, and veiling the criminality of the Miniflers of that day, that the inquiries of the trill Parliament fully }roved the. Catholics to he bent on aboolute fepara tioo, and that they regarded Catholic Emancipation, and Itc!Osrn in Parliament, as nothing better than a strop of ink compared with their more extended oh.. jeLt. This is all true, but is it the whole of what thefe in - lollies brought to light ? Did it not at the fame tar,;-- aprear that thefe fame perfons who made this declara tion. at the fame time confeffed that if Catho. iic I:maneiparion and a Reform in Parliament had ta:ca ;trotted, then all profped of a fuccefs'ul inturrec fon we•tild have been dellroyed? They knew the cited corciliatory meafures, and they dreaded their ap tdirecion. They wcrc fenfible that it the: meafures vo.re well applied it would be quite ridiculous to think of a. ;aching the feelings of the people of Ireland from their conneCtion with this country. It is per fo!.!!y tinder flood that the Catholics had the higheh halos from the afrurances and pledge of Earl Fit z itham, and if difaarous confequences followed the of that pledge, let thole who occafioned it anfwer for the confequences. But how do the Ca delics, alter thus being duped and betrayed, (land, after tie meafure of Union was carried in a great 7 of j u fti ce , t h ere i s a I rong call of policy in agreeing meafure by th e i r af til ance ? On every fide they are i to the clai ms o F t h e P et i t i oners. We have been em injored an d ca l umn i ated ; on the one band by the !pinged a confiderable time both in the lag and prefent Mini ftry, who held out hopes only to difoppoint them, ' ferion in difctitlions on the bell means of recruiting and on the other by thofe who oppofe the Union, as • the army. Without at all elliparaging the views of having betrayed the intereas and surrendered the my Right Hon. Friend nn the fame Bench (Nlr.Wind berties of their country. It was nut, Sir, on light I hnm), I mutt be allowed to fay, that neither aarith grounds that the Catholic, hoped, under th e Impe. bills enliqing men for time or procuring them for rank rial Parliament, for the conceflion of all the claims —neither volunteering from the Militia, nor any other which a local Legiflature had refilled to ackn • ledee. plan for inereafingour dilpotabfe force hithertorecom (DA Learned Gentleman on the other fide of the I-1 ute mended or reliwted to, would he half fo effeelual as r. Duigenan) had written a 'cites to an Hottotira the Pimple meature r ef the Emancipation of the Ca ble Friend of mine, whom lam happy to fee near tholics of !rel.-tad. We fh"uld then receive an imme• me, in which, alluding to the meafure of a Legit- dime and numenfe augmentation of men in carte. lative Union, he argues that if fuch a mothoe ere quence of an aft of berogaity and jullice. We know accompliffied, all exclusive law s and rettriation, taa character ot the firth nation, and we are not with would of neceffity be abolithed. I need not i. form atit the cap rieoc e of what mty be expected from the the Houfe that the learned Gentleman to whom I , warmth of their teelings,aird the livelinefs of their gni have alluded was, in the Parliament sf Ireland, par- titride.—We are n o w conre• ding agaiiiit France, cer ticularly hoftile to the claims of the Catholics, and tainlv a moll formidable enemy. But what is it that conceived that the only way in which .hey could ever we have chiefly to dread in this conteß! Is it, Sir, be acceded to, was through the medium of that Le- , French indultry, wealth, commerce, or refources ? giflative Union which he was fu doh oils of teeing j No. hut it is the immenfe population of France, which adopted. I put it then, in fairnels to the H o if e , whet- renters her fo dangerous a toe. How then are we to ther, when this meafure was carried, the Catholics I counterad this danger ? We have a clear method laid had not every reafon to believe that their claims , before us. We have only to recal to our affection would meet with immediate attention ? 'nate jars ex• t one fourth of our population, and to render that the peetations have, for feveral years, been difregarded, I fnurce of our ftrength which was now only an addi and it certainly had become the duty of fume Mem- I throat code of our weaknefs. Let us then bona all ber to bring the matter fairly tinder difeuffion. Hap feeds of animofity. Let us thew the Catholic fcldier pily this difagreeable mode of proceeding has been and tailor, that the road to honour is alike laid open rendered unnecelTary by the courfe which the Ciao- to all, and that he who fights ; ter battles well, fhall tic Body themfelves, after mature deliberation, have find no diltitidion of rewar d from a grateful country. thought it expedient to adopt. They have come for- Mr. Fox concluded, by propofing to refolve into a ward with a loyal, dutiful, and temperate addrefs, Committee on the Petition as loon as he fat down. reprefenting the nature and extent of 'twit claims, Dr. DUIGENAN role to oppofe the motion. He and fairly fubmitting them to the attention of the replied to the obfervations of the loft fpeaker, with Legiflature. They have concluded themfelves with refpeet to his publication. The opinions Rated in it a propriety which places their loyalty and love of he !till maintained : at the fame time, he would not good order above all fort of fufpicion, avoiding have it fuppofed that he was for excepting Catholics all infurredinn ' and difcouraging a ll t umu l t — f rom ta ki ng the oath of allegiance. He never thought they have left th e whole of the affair to the fo!aer that the oath of fupremacy was an exclufive law.— determination of Parliament. Coming then to the l'he Lr arned Domtor then proceeded to comment on difeuflion of the claims of fo great and relpedable a the Per , ion, and on the fignatures affixed to it. With body thus prefented, I hope and tat • thefe claims regard to the first perfon whole rime appeared, the will be fully and attentively confidered. In 0 e Earl of Shrewtbury, he had nn connexion whatever comae of the obfervations with which I have ih .uaht with Ireland, and three others of the Peers had been it neceffary to introduce my Motion, I have hitherto created by his preterit Majedy. From the county of avoided taking any notice of certain mytterious info- VsT, 'ford there was only one petitioner ; from the nuations, that it was needlefs to agitate the question counties of Louth and Down only one, and from at the prefent moment, fince it was impollible from nineteen other counties there was no fubfcriber at all. an objedinn in a very high quarter, that the object it. He next confidered the charader of the delegates ; view could be obtained. Before I fit down, I mutt one of whom, named Scully, he had never knoun fay a few words on this topic, that to grant the before. This perfon had written a pamphlet of fo re claims or the Catholics, would oblige his Majefly prehenfible a defeription, that he was furpriled he to violate his Coronation Oath. This is an idea Should be fent in filch company. The Hon. Member utterly month-ow; and abfurd. I only defire, that read fume extracts from this pamphlet. In one pal. any man will look at the Coronation Oath, and I am fage, the writer, (peaking of tome hiftorical fad, laid, confident, he will fee that no fuch conclution can be that a certain perfon had died, while gallantly de drawn, as that fume individuals with to confider as tending his pnit againft a Dutch invader (meaniag the nece(fary refult of the meafure of Emancipa• King William III.) He had alto called the Parl;a hon. If we were to fuppofe King William alive at ment of Ireland a mere club !route. The Learned this moment, and the very ads in queflion were to Dollorlikewife quoted tome other parts,equallyobjec• be repealed, would that be a violation of his Co- tinnable, and contended, that for Inch a man to have ronation Oath, to repeal Aets which were not framed the confidence of the Catholics, clearly proved their when his Coronation Oath took place! What then motives and views, and how much sincerity there could King William have chile by contenting to the was in their profellions. The fcheme propafed, and repeal ? Why, he would only have done What every the reafons urged by the Hon. Gentleman, were the Sovereign in this country is bound to do—he would fame that were ufed by James 11. who alfo pretended merely have bowed to the eaprefs wiffies of Parlia- that the adoption of a fimilar plan would render the ment. The fame principle applies to the prefent So- kingdom unanimous. The Learned Dollor maintain. vereign, who had always thevn himfelf re yto ac. ed, however, that the meafure, if carried, would ac cede to the wishes of his Parliament. if t coned . - tually shake the title of the King, and would exhi. lion of the Catholic claims now be a violation of the bit his Majefly's predecetfors in the light of usurpers. coronation oath, then all the concellions in 1793, and He read an extraet from the oath of fupremacy to at former periods, implied an equally clear violation, prove, that there was nothing in it which might not 1 cannot then allow this objection to have any force ; be taken by Roman Catholics ; and he alfo read a nor can lat all go into the idea, that becaufe there is great number of documents, to prove the danger of no profpelt of carrying a meafure, it is not on that entrusting perfons of that perfualion with power. It account to be propofed. If fuch a principle had was one of their tenets, that no faith ought to be been acted upon then, not one of thole meafurea, kept with heretics; and that every obligation towards the beneficial effects of which we feel this day, not them is null. The affertions in the petition were ei one of thofe ads, which have illuftrated and fecured ther falfe or fallacious. It had been advanced by a 'our liberties, would have been carried. For furely, Dr. Milner, in a publication which he had tent forth Sir, it is needlefs to imprefs on your attention, and lag week, that the Coronation Oath was not binding the attention of the Houfe, that almoft every great on the King : bu t th at i t mull neceffatily turn up , n conftitutional meafure has b ee n carr i e d through Par- the cardinal virtues of prudence and expediency ! ! 'Lament only after fevere and fuccellive exertions. I This was the dodrine of one of the principal Roman (hall ever be the firft man to fupport his Majefly's law- Catholic Vicars in this kingdom—a doctrine win thy Ifni authority, but I will not Infer the name of that au- alone of the French Convention, and which clearly thority to be improperly or indecently introduced to (hewed the opinion the Catholics entertained of the prevent full and fair difcuflion on a fubjeet the moll in- obligation of oaths. Dr. Troy and Mr. Plowden tereaingthat could be fubmitted totheonnfideration of had inculcated tenements equally improper. No Parliament. He who would advife the King to do an other religion had fuch a hold on mew': mends.—The ad contrary to his coronation oath, mutt be a traitor; Hon. Member next took a Short view of the eccle but thofe who, on a fubjelt of this fort, attempt to fiallical ettablithments in other Coimtries, z d con poifon the royal ear, and by falfe reprefentations tended that of all Gowen:mews. that of Great Bri create impreffionsunfavourable to the Catholic claims, tain demanded the exclution of Roman Catholics, Ratter the Sovereign only to betray him. No con- not temporarily, but for ever. To admit into the lideration of this myflerious nature ever fhall deter Legiflature men who thought it a deity incumbei t me from the performance of what I conceive to be a upon them to dellroy heretics, would be the molt great and important duty. The object of the motion extraordinary thing poflible. What had been their with which I fhall conclude it then, that the Petition conduit in the feveral rebellions which had taken of the Catholics be referred to a Committee of the place ? He controverted the statements relative to whole Houfe, and it will then become an object of the difproportion between the Proteflants and Papists. confideration whether the whole or any part of the In the year 1724, Dean Swift had eßimated the total Petition is ko be conceded. There are two or three number of both in Ireland at a million and a half.— cirCtimftances which to me appear peculiarly worthy In the year 1752, it had been Rated by Bourke, ore of the confederation of the Committee, if it lhould of their own writers, that the Proteß ants amounted be granted by the Houle. The cireundlances under to about 744,000, or thereabouts, and the Catholics which Roman Catholics in the army were placed, to 1,400,000. At that time the Protettants were would call for peculiar invelligation. As the law more than half as numerous as the Papitte. It was now flood, Roman Catholic officers could, up to a not attempted to induce a belief that the latter' certain rank, exercife all their duties in Ireland amounted to four millions. He was lure there were without any penalty ; but no fooner did they Pet not five millions of people in Ireland; and was it fop. their foot in this country and exercife the fame du- poled that Protestants did not iocreate as well as Ca ties, than the law of Prertumire was in force againfl tholics ? (A laugh). He had already Rated that the them. - This then is finely an evil which loudly calls number was not in the proportion of two to one, and he for tedrefs. The cafe of the common foldiers too de- did not believe that tile whole of both religions much mands attention, for in many cafes Catholic foldiers exceeded three millions. At the revolution England were in this country compelled to attend Proteßant and Wales contained 7,200.000 inuls ; Ireland , aely places of worthip, and though complaints were made r,eoci,croci. Could Ireland have quadrupled her po nd redrefs was obtained. I mention thefe circumflan- pulation, when that of England and Wales was neatly Ces as affording fpecific grounds for going into the the fame ? Betides this it Ihould be iecelleeted, that Committee, where they may be fully contidered. I Ireland had been much more expoted to drains, ow know there are fume Gentlemen who are difpofed to in gto emigrations, and other circtimllances. The 'grant the right of the Catholics to officej, who think calculations made in the petition were s abfOlutely frau that the right of voting in either Houfe of Parliament dulent. He controlled the conduct of the Proiellants would be attended with the utmoll danger. Others, with that of the Papifls, to the advantage of the fur. on the contrary, think that it would not be fee to mer, who were difpoted to spend the tall drop of admit them to the exercife of thefe high offices, but their blood, and the laltfhillioe of their money, in that their admiflion into Parliament would not only the defence of the country. It'had been argued, that be harmlefs but highly beneficial. On both claffes of the Catholics had deferred every degree of meth by Gentlemen I call to fupport my proportion, for their conduet at the time of the Union, and that on both have grounds fufficientefor going to a full invef- that account they w e r e ent i t l e d to w h at t h ey demand tigation of the fubjca. Ladepcadcat of a u principles' ed. He Should thew how far this was the cafe, Ia the year t 79 an A trembly of the Catholics was con vened in Dublin. At ilvit titre there had been no mention of an Union. The delegates, who were nearly fifteen hundred in number, tidied from every part of Ireland, refolved, both colleftively and in dividually, to refill their emancipation, Should it be offered on the ignominious condition of an union with England. In £799, refolutions equally vio lent were paired ! He had never met with a Jaco• bir. or a hlafphemer who was not a Ready friend to the Catholics. Three weeks before the rebellion great numbers took the oath of allegiance ; and the rw,ment the rebellion broke out, they murdered all the Proteßants they met with. Should the Petition he granted, in lets than two Parliaments there would be at lead eighty Roman Catholics in the Houfe of Commons. Did Gentlemen think they would not be making term: with the Miniaer ? would not their de mand he to hold the entire patronage of Ireland?— would they not hold every office ? and what would be the confequence ? They would fay, the Reprefenta ' tives of Scotland have not only the patronage of their own country, but of Ireland and of England alfo.— That could not be refufed to the loyal Englifb Diffen ter, which was granted to the Irifh Papift; nor to the Englifh what was conceded to the Ira Catholic.— Every one of the reariCtive laws muff be repealed. Nor wa., this r. 11: the B.llof Rights and the Ad of Settle ment mu ft be repealed likewife. The Bill of Rights enafted, that if the King married a Papid, he Should lofe his Crown—if the Heir Apparent married a Pa pift,lie fhould forfeit his right to the fucceffion. Would not the Jacobins be glad to lay hold of fuch a circum- Rance ? Would the Houle, with idl the evils before their eyes which he had pointed oat, confent to grant the prayer of the Petition ? The Roman Catholics already enjoyed more civil advantages than any fob. jeCts of the moll favoured nation. He had 'hewn in every poffible way that their Petition was not true. Its objeel was contrary to the Union. Every Sove reign swore at his coronation, that he would preferve the At of Uniformity inviolate. It had been afferted by the Honourable Gentleman, that Parliament might enable the King to repeal that St a t ute .— This he denied. His NI - airily was hound by his oath to refute his fanftion to fiich an A& The Learned Dolor would not admit that his Majelly was bound to fanflion every Al paired by Parliament. Parlia ment had no fuch power as was afcribed to it ;—and it was a Romifh doetrine to contend that it had. ( Here Mr. Grattan laughed) The Hon. Gentleman may laugh. He knew that what he had laid was not very agreeable to him. If the King had not the power of refuting his fanetion, hi. office was a blank. He was hound to preferve the Church Ellablifhment ; and Parliament never could, in defiance of both Unions, oiler Such a 1311 for his acceptance. The Learned Gentleman offered a number of other °bra vat ions, and concluded wiLlr giving his negative to the motion. M. GRATTAN rare, and delivered his maiden fpeech in fupport of the motion. He Ipoke in fub- Itance as follows: Sir, in offering the fentiments which I entertain upon this very important fubjeft, I beg leave caplet-s -ly to (tate that I deprecate all kind of animofities, and as the caufes have ceafed, I fincerely truft that the animofities aiding nut of the caufes have alto ceafed. The quellion in my mind has not been clearly under flood by the Learned DoCtor who has fpoken before me. It is not a queflion for your contideration whe ther you will give to a few Roman Catholics the right of fitting and voting with you in this Hoofe, but whether you will give to an effential and vital part of yourfelves that power and thole rights which ate now &fired ? It is in reality a question in which the vitality and integrity of your empire are involv ed. The arguments employed by the learned Doe • for go rather to thew the neceflity of eternal dill-ca tion, eternal feuds, and eternal war in Ireland, than to prove that the Roman Catholics ought not to be admitted to a participation of equal rights and con- Ilitutional freedom with their Proteltant fellow fubjeCts. Such is the vehemence of language, fo (Irange and dangerous are the theory and praCtice which he has advanced, that if any Catholic printer were to pubiifh them in the fame ferious way they have been this evening brought forward, he would be profecuted for treafon. With refpeCt to the doc trines which the Learned Dater has charged the whole RumanCatholic body with maintaining, I could not perhaps make a better and more decifive anfwer than by producing agaiatt his petitions and affertions the prail:ce of the Rom.tn Catholics. The Learned DoCtor appears to have divided his attack into four heals. He makes an attack upon the religion itfelf, upon the cond'nl of their anceilors as connected with that religion, upon their prefent datrine and praCtice, and urn their future fyflem. The limits of clerian alone have flopped him. If I were to follow him in all he has raid, I flould have a talk much more arduous than I could think of executing ; I Ihould hive to defend the Roman Catholic from his attack, and the Protellant fr.-an Lis defence. For my own part, Ido not think Fo too far in maintaining that the Roman Cativ.liz may be as good and as loyal a fubjea as any n: n. The Catholics have indeed Iheon, that they are the votaries of the church of Rome, but they have not thewn that they ate the votaries of the Pope. It is rather curious, than the Learned DoClor (horrid have produced, in fupport of his atgono.no, ti.c tonal' of the Lateran, than which it would be to find any thing more ridiculous and abfard, arid which was carried into effel three hundred years before the ettablifh ment of the Proterlant reiTion. Shall In filly a re port get abroad, that the fourth et the Lateran is an ohjelt of al rim and fear to the Br itifh nation ? As to the dr:alines which the Leaped DoCtor afcribes to the Roman Catholic relic ion, loch as holding no faith with heretics, can I do better than by letting up other authorities againtt his, and among them fhali I be dzemed to ni ike a w.: 4k defence in quoting ti at of Grotius ? Or will it be neceffary for me to fay to ne than that when the quellion was foleenoly pot to the Univer lilies of Salamanca, of Paris, and of Lnuvaine; the arfoer made was the fame, that no Inch (;06trines were maintained by the Roman Catholic Religion ? Shall I detain the Honfe in ex poling the abiiodity and danger of telling the Re. man Catholics that they cannot be good fubjeets ? —Ent the condul o; the Roman Catholics them felve, exem; is roe from the talk of refuting all the c ha rg es whlc have been eferred aairift thm. y have rio h t only repelled pr all there g aceufati e ons by a ',lattice siireetly contrary to the Zoatioes