Star. — London, England, 1818-02-12 00:00:00

~. 1,44 } li _.... • • of the most sound practical principles of commer cial regulation—(Hear, hear, haar.) He was per. fecdy aware that 'remonstrance was the only course *filch 4he Governenent could pursue with respect to • Spas. What he complained of was the intoletithie grievance of issuing orders of prohibition sosuddemly that British merchants suffered ruinous liesese, Mr. F. ROBINSON said, that with respect to cot tons, there had been a notice given by Spain, in 1315, of her yrtention to return to her old prohibi tory system against them. Sie Henry Wellesley had ted against this, not entirely without suc cess. e was not aware of any recent increase of the duties on iron. It certainly was a grievance that heavy duties should be suddenly imposed on the importation of a particular article of trade—yet this was a grievance which we ourselves had not unfre quently occasioned to foreign merchants. For it even now was no uncommon thing, however mistaken the principle unfortunately was, to pass an Act, impo aing heavy duties on the importation of a particular article, which were to take effect and to be levied immediately on she passing of the Act. Mr. LYTTLETON said he was informed it had been the practice of Spain to give six months' notice of any prohibitory duties before they were actually imposed, and the complaint was, that this practice had been discontinued. Dr. PHILLIMORE wished to know whether, under the present Treaty with Spain, persons who, having instituted proceedings in the Admiralty Court here, had sentence of restitution of captured vessels, pronounced in their behalf, were to be referred to the Spanish Government for the execution of that sen tence? He was induced to ask the questicm in con-, seqtilirice of its having been said nat 0200,000 out' of the £400,000 to be granted for Spain, was in lieu aclaims for vessels captured, and afterwa rds restored. Lord CASTLEREAGH replied, that persons who had sentence. pronounced in their favour, would have a strong equitable claim on the Spanish Govern ment. His understanding was, that persons in that situation must look to the Spanish Government for indemnity, Lord ALTHORPE made objections to the grant of 400,000/. in the present situation of our finances. Mr. WILBERFORCE contended, that even as a ‘atser of commercial calculation, the Treaty was a wise one, and the sum would be amply repaid by the commercial advantages which the Treaty would produce. Mr: CALC'RAFT, alluding to the reply of Lcrd Castlereagh, respecting claimants for captured ves sels, who had sentence pronounced in their favour, thought it very hard to turn over those persons to the Spanish Government. Lord CASTLEREAGH said, that those persons would have a good remedy against the Spanish Go vernment. The arrangement was made after the precedent of the Treaty with Portugal, to which no objection had been made on that ground. • Mr. J. P. GRANT contended, that it was very unfair and discreditable to send those persons, in whose favour sentence had be:n pronounced in our' ' Comte of Justice, to have the sentence carriedth' execution. • ' 1 4 1'!' Mr. W. SMITH approved of the Treaty gene , and Sir R. HERON objected to the grant of 400,0001- The motion was then agreed to, and the report of the. committee ordered to be recuived tc-morrow lIMPLOTHENT 01 SPIES. Mr. FAZAKERLY rose, pursuant to his motion, to move that instructions be given tc the Secret Com mittee now sitting, directing an enquiry to be made whether -measures had been taken to bring to justice the persons concerned in exciting riots in different parts of the country. The empioyment of persons who had excited riots had bee.' mentioned in various petitions presented to the House—and had been proved by some facts which came out during the trials of persons concerned in these riots, and was expressly noticed in the Report of th' Secret Com mittee on the '2oth of June lax. As he had not him self sufficient local information of the circumstances under which those riots had been excited, he would satisfy himself with founding his motion on that pas sage of the Report which he had mentioned. The _gaols had been filled with State prisoners under novel circumstances, and the proceedings of Goi•ernment had afforded the contrast of the strongest and the weakest measures, during which the unfortunate per sans had been confined with more than usual seve rity ; and the very last step, had been a letter of pa ternal admonition for the good management of the young man who was discharged—(hear, hear, and laughter.) When the jails had been crowded in this manner by the exertions of spies and informers, was it fair or just that nothing should be brought against the persons detained? Was it decent, or any thing like an impartial administration of justice, when there did not appear to be the slightest trace of sus picion against those persons? He v.ished, however, to guard against .expressing any opinion generally, with regard to the employment of spies, though it Mils most unfortunate that public vices could only be detected by private treachery. But While such per sons *ere 'employed the greatest ctution should be ezereised before the information they furnished was acted upon. He should trouble the House no fur ther ; the whole object of his motion was merely to a lk that those persons who hadeiceeded their instruc tions should be detected and brought to justice.— Ife should therefore move, "That it be an instruc tion to the Committee of Secrecy, to inquire whether any and what Measurei had been taken to detect and bring to justice those persons described in the Report of the Bth of June; 'who may, by their language and conduct, have entourageel these designs ".of which it was intended they should:tie-billy the instruments of detection."—The questiouhling put, Mr. B. BATHURST eteelka. that:nothing could be more correct aid ingenue& iban the manner in which the lion9i4rablE Gentleman had expressed himself. If nuderstood the motion, it was not for any' general inquiry, but for authorizing the Commit" t adopt a precise and specific line of conduct._, Bdt they were armed at present with suf ficient p o wer. The Honourable Gentleman, how ever, wanted to know whether Government had taken anfineasnires to punish certain persons that had acted a particular part in the fomenting of dis turbancesJ This assumed a proposition that he beg ged in the first instance to deny. It assumed that a certain crime had been committed ; for to ask for punishment without it was premature. The Right =of that son to apprehend _ souse persons might gaging the designs fectly clear that 1 llave been given, , signs risings in various parts of the country," &c. From this statement 'he argued at considerable length, that it was the bounden duty of Government to avail themselves of all the information that had been put into their hands, and to make such detections as the stature of that information, and the consequent em ployment of such persons, warranted. At present be would say that no such case existed as that inti mated in the motion. The moment it was found out that Oliver was in Yorkshire, the course taken by the disaffected was, to say that he was the person who had organised and concerted the insurrections. The real state of the transaction was, that by profes sing to be a deputy from London, and by pretend. tug to look to London for support, and saying all was right there, he might hold out encouragement. But that those designs had long been planned, and had been adjourned from time to time, was a fact known long -before this person made his appearance. As to the question wl.ether the Committee should be directed to inquire into those - circumstances, he 'Maid say that Government knew of no misronduct on the part of this per son in the way that had been stated —(hear, hear) ; and there was r.o reason to bO. lieve that he had taken any part in the explosions; .that had occurred. His inszrucsions were to gain iso . formation for Government, and to cottnnemeate what he learned frt in time to time to the neighbour ing Magistrates, at every place to which he went..—. his having stated that there sire 70,003 men, was the ntmo.t point in which he was incorrect. Is was accident entirely that brought him into the country: he was not empossered to go amongst those persons, but being amongst them, he thought it right to state' what he saw and learnt; and he would put it to. Gentlemen to say how otherwise he could have acted, Except as far as related to his having been thus en gaged; his life and character were untainted by any , body ; and when persons were brought forward agaitast him, he (Mr. Bathurst) only hoped their own' characters might stand as fair, and that they might not be found to be connected with any of those per-, sons charged with Luddism or other acts nt - outrage —(hear, hear.)—lt was the r.atural artifice of the per. - sons he had exposed to turn round upon him, and,' say, " You have detected us ; now we will espase you." The Right Honourable Gentleman proceeded to argue on the detections that had taken place of the intended conspiracies, which he attributed to the , observations of Oliver and similar persons, and in- 1 sisted, that from all that had trammotred, there were strong proofs of all that had been stated in the Re n. The fact was, that Oliver was not at Derby, the pleee where t he insurrection broke out, and "re it was right to assume, that the whole plan _ have lot the conspiracy was matured before he could _ given itany ens o.urage rent. The number of 50 cr '4O persons only who we= committed to jail could not he an ova-charge of severity on Government, when so many were concerned as leaders—(hear). — He denied that any consequence arose to individuals from this man's discoveries, as not a single person had been t.aktn up from his information. The de claration of trandreth in hid lawstintnenis respecting! • Oliver, was totally unfounde3.—(dr. — Fizakerley here explained, that he had made no allusion to the trials at Derby).—The Honourable Gentleman then could see nothing in the Second Report of the Com mittee on which to rest his opinion, as that Report was made long after the trials in London had been concluded, and the persons acquitted, so that it re lated solely to the country. The person to whom Brandreth stated that Oliver was with him at Pent ridge, told him he knew better, for that Oliver was at that very time in Yorkshire. After which Brand reth never mentioned his name. On the whole, the Right Honourable Gentleman contrnded, that there was no ground for the motion, and nailing made out to induce the House to agree to it. Lord MILTON could not agree with the Right Hon. Gentleman that no bad consequences arose out of the mission of this person. This person acted in a particular character ; on his information the proceed ings were to rest, and on which he verily believed they did turn. The Noble Lord read an extract from the Report of the Committee of the House of Lords last Session, stating, " that although the disaffected were looking to the metropolis, it was in the parts of the country alluded to that the insurrection seemed to have been confined." They thus marked the con neaion in the country ; and by whom was this con nexion kept up ? Why, by persons sent down by the Secretary of State ; and the greatest anxiety was shown by the Magistrates in certain places to lay hold of the London Delegate, as the person most likely to blow the disorder into a flame. He could not therefore in his conscience believe but that many of the mis. chiefs arose from such interposition ; although he did ' not at all rely on the testimony of the dying person. He thought such individuals had Buda eight to comae plain that it had been asserted is the House of Com mons they were men capable of being involved in such transactions. On the contrary, he believed the charges against Oliver were made by persons who were no more concerned in those transactions than himself (Lord Milton.) The Right Hon. Gentleman had said that no persons were taken on the informa tion of Oliver; this was perhaps, strictly speaking, the case—but might it not have co happened that he was the cause, though not in a direct manner, of the arrest of a great number of these men whom he met in different parts of the country 7—He (Lord Milton) did not complain of the arrest of the s e pe r s ons , th oug h he thought the time must come when an inquiry into that circumstance must take place—(hear.)—lt was a clear and indisputable fact, that wherever these spies went, symptoms of insurrection occurred ; but where they did not appear, every thing was quiet—(hear.) So it was in the West Riding of Yorkshire—there violence appeared, because the fomenter of it got among the people—(hear)—so it was in Derbyshrre. Mr. BATHURST--es Oliver was not there:— (hear, hear.) Lord MILTON--" Does the Right Hon. Gentle man mean to persist in that declaration?"—(heat;) Mr. BATHURST—ft He was not in the part of that county where the insurrection broke out.' ' Lcard MILTON—tie might not have been on the he might have mainly centri there by his acts in its vicinity. , Gentleman refresh his recol to the tour of Oliver—he can from two to eight o'clock, precise at the subsequent hours.— would not do its duty substantially and _ for the country, if it did not now inquire into the conduct of the men employed by Govern ment, and also into that of their employers.—(Hear.) It was a little too much to hold the people of this country in such disesteem, as to be astonished at their holding in just abhorrence and indignation the cha• ratters of spies and informers. It was evidently the object of Ministers to excite alarm last Session, and they availed themselves of every subsidiary means to promote and extend that alarm. The imprudence of the people in many instances furnished them with a ground for their proceedings, and of this they cor dially availed dietnselves—(hear). Whatever oblo-, guy he may draw on himself by thus candidly sta ting his opinion, he was ready to meet. As a Mem. ber of the Committee, he also begged to state, that he returned his hearty thanks to his Honourable Friend who made the present motion, for giving him an opportunity of seeking' further information on the matter about weieli they were to inquire. As one of the Committee, he of course stood only as an indivi dual, and had hot a single voice. The Committee were bound to obey the opinion of the House, and he earnestly hoped Met by acceding to the present motion, the path cd tie Cemmittee would be made clear, and its duties explicitly defined—facer). Mr. C. GRANT. jun. thought the Noble Lord had not given an anever to the cease-nations of the Right Honourable Gentleman below him. It was quite un necessary to give those instructions to the Commit tee, hecautz they were competent to recur to the sub ject as before. h was completely a novel subject to send such instructions to a Secret Committee of that' House. But if they wet so far, aiti took the ground of the Noble Lord, it became a prima facie case •to see• whether the use could hind enough of delinquency on the part cf the Government to au thorise this step.' Nevear - had public disturbances occurred• which parties had not charged Govern ment with being the authors of them. From 1793 to 1801 these charges were perpetually reiterated, yet it had never been proposed to make them a sub ject for the consideration of a Secret Committee.— Nothing whatever had been pro l ved with respect to those instigetions of which so much had been heard, and consequently there was no ground fur any spe cial instruction to the Committee. There had been no proof that Oliver had been the instigator of either of the insurrection's, as they were both arranged prior to his intercpurse with any of the people. If his in terference could have been proved, ie-was astonishing that the Learned Counsel who so ably defended the prisoners at Derby, did not avail himself of Oliver's presence, by bringing him up from the place where he stopped. It was the only ground on which the case of his clients could have stood e and he would ask any man whether, if a British Jury could have fpund them guilty under such circumstances, they would not have recommended them to mercy? Al luding to Brandreth's declaration, he contended that no weight could be placed on it, and argued, that the fact of Oliver not having been called melte trial, was the strongest proof of his interference not being• a fact. Unless, therefore, an extraordinary case of de rlineeneetcy could be made out, to cause so novel a de viation from the usual course, he should give his op position to the motion. Me-BENNET did not think the House or the Country could look for anything from that Commit tee, named as it was by Ministers, for the purpose of defending themselves. He wasy however, induced to support the motion, because it would put to the test a case which he should establish, that the Com mittee, as was said by an Honourable Friend below hitn, was one of the grossest juggles that were ever played off—(hear, hear.) They had assembled at two Committees already, in which the case of the Crown was laid before them, but the case of the people was withdrawn. But all that he asked was, that the case of the people should be heard. In the midst of their distresses they had been visited by one of the greatest plagues that could fall upon them, namely, that the Government thee: ought to protect them, had sent among them persons to drive their to desperation— (hear, hear.)—With respect to spies generally, he should not stop to give any opinion as to the employ ment or non-employment of them. He knew how difficult it was to draw a nice line between those who looked for reward through the information they gave, and those who thought they were performing a public duty by such conduct. But he knew that the person employed by Government had done acts that he could not think of with But shame, or speak of without indignation and disgust. It was known, that ever since 1812, such persons had kept that part elf the Country that was the scene of the late insur rections in the greatest alarm. There was a ca pt ain of the gang of spies who had lately published a book upon the subject. He was a Captain of Militia, and had received his instructions from a gallant Officer now no more, and of whom therefore 'he should say nothing. They were to get a number of men listed in, as it was called, and that was sworn in the most sacred manner, to act as spies, and to bind the poor deluded people by a similar oath, never to discover the nature of their proceedings ; and this, on the part of the spies, for the sole purpose of violating their oath, by exposing those they had entrapped. He did not set himself np as a peculiar moralist ; butlie should consider the religion he professed to be false and disgraceful, if he were thus to lend his counte nance to such infamous acts, by which all laws, hu man and divine, we r e t o h e broken, under the pre tence of supporting Govereunent. With respect to Oliver, however, he was prepared to meet the charge of the Right Honourable Gentleman who had so ar dently supported his character, and the House should be the witness between them ; and when they bad heard the case, he would say they dare not refuse giving those instructions to the Committee—(hear, . - .)—There was Mr. Castles, whose evidence was believed by the Judge s and by the Attorney-Gene- ' ral, but, thank Gov, disbelieved by the Jury—(iteer,' hear, hear.).--This much-favoured witness, this bully , of a brothel and vender of forged notes, in order that he might look b etter t h an h e was , bad been clo- I thed by a Police Ma . strate. This sheaved the care . sad attehtiou that Csovetnsamt thought proper to pay to such persons. 'But as to Oliver, he could tell (hit Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, that so far his being of a pure, and unsullied character, L e , al -- branded with infamy. He had begu n his c aret II 'oue of those crimes that fellowse him committed to advance themselves in life--by a 44 on a defenceless woman. He had, like his asx. : -.,„. Castles, committed the crime of bigamy, 71; were other parts of his character which, Th e‘t h ei : Gentlemen should think fit to put-him in the b oa s a witness, he would shew were so base, that ne w to the mercy of others the life that he holds i s he would say no more on this point to the H azes rable Gentleman now. The Hon. Gentleman went into a detail of his history as a spy. Reb els by stating that he owed his first introduction b :) * public by getting acquainted with a small society respectable persons, who met to obtain a C. tional Reform in Parliament ; that on the 24i- , April last he started from London under a fei name, to see Mr. Pendril at Liverpool ; that 1:e . 21 acquainted with a person of the name of Mi who introduced him to a friend at Bath, Earned,* and it was proposed that a few individuals , meet him as a sort of general delegate for disc,* the subject of Parliamentary Reform. 77 % , stated he was going to make the tour of Derby, N s tingham, &c. to get petitions. He told then i ti proceedings were too tame ; that he had beer s gaged with Despard, and had effected the e!c aft d Thistlewood and young Watson, and furnisbedd al with money. He then left Liverpool, and by ata of juggle his companion waearrested. H e use .. 4 tell the persons he met, that it was his opisi oz that of his friends, that it was of no usepetizi c and that they must resort to physical fact ; found they objected to any violent procerir.r. T meeting on the sth of May was not accide-..u., himself formed it ; and when he came, I.e fc.7.1 delegates, twelve in number, from Leeds, Wakefield, &c. &c. and these pocr individuals naturally considered him as a eye man. He told them to Ica for assistance : 1 London, and that it was necessary to tarn c ut all the arms they could collect. He then told to take a card, and write on it the number of r they thought would turn out, and sign it sith tel names, and he (Mr. Bennet) firmly believed tha was from one of those cards that the Commit err med their opinion that 70,000 men were resdyto. in insurrection. All these facts there were ready to prove on oath. In a few days aflerva...til was in London, and went to visit 'Mitchel in C bath-fields, where be was confined in the how cf Governor, and watched by spies, to see if they :c;,l draw any thing from rim. He here propcse • Mitchell to write to Ms filends in the North, c if he could induce them to make an appeal maxi but Mitchell refused, and said—" I believe jet a traitor, and I beg you will quit my presence, 4 never let me see you more." The next tune hen heard of was at Derby, though the Right }ln • tleman denied he had been there. (Mr. 13.11..± explained, that he had not denied his having Derby, but had said he was net at the plat.: ckt the insurrection broke out.) He would now real a statement which, though it was not an affidavit, •'• contents of it might be relied on. The Hon. C tlemzn then proceeded to read a variety of pt...t, culars respecting the conduct of Oliver st! - I the Talbot Inn. Oliver told those to whcm I.e al dressed himself that all legal means hag been already without effect, and the peop le were resolved to petition no more. It was COW • cessary to have recourse to the only mear.sleft-1. , sical force. The Londoners, he said, on!) , waitedi the country people to join them to begin. Whet:cl the would not come into his views, his reply wa " you are mistaken there. Half the country is • to rise already—at Bijringham, Sheffield, Lan and all the manufacturing tovms, the people wa ready; at Leeds they were almost all arir.ed, and cr with difficulty be kept down. In Londontli..re 70,000 men ready to act against the Goren:atr he himself could raise 50,000 ; NVooler, who sexy excellent fellow, was to print the proclamation of - insurgents, and he (Oliver) was to write them:- He then described the route be proposed to tale, order to see that altthe people in the places he had mentioned, were ready to co-operate s the people of London. ( Hear, hear.) One inn, bricklayer, he persuaded to go to Birmingham,. make observations on what was passing ; and as man had not five shillings in the world to carry 'cs there, Oliver said he would write a letter for bin carry to a gentleman in that place, w i no would him plenty of money. Such a lettei he accord'. wrote ; but the poor man tos whom it was v-r. alarmed at seeing a number of persons. taken so his neighbourhood, destroyed the paper. lie, ever, would prove that such a letter had bees • to him, and other witnesses would prove that is . been written by Oliver. He th en went to Nor-4- ham, where he endeavoured, by ratans sirii:z • those already described, to excite the people to x 3 of insubordination ; and there, he would te'l Right Honourable Gentleman, Oliver had seer .frn.. dreth. He would prove thi s on the affidavit ot person who had witnessed the meeting.— } r" was that?' was asked from the opposite side.l would not name the individual, but if de i - ncl .l were granted, he would produce a witness to pio the fact—(beer, hear.) The affidavit in questio thought was confirmed by a statement made Brandreth to his Solicitor previous to his trial. !II lof the statement he w ou ld rea d, an d he shouLAX the less readily do so because it contained a cars ' sion of the illegal actions of which Brani#e'l . doubt, was guilty. I n p roo f o f w h at h e had sahi 3 the system which had been acted upon, he cou:4 10 produce the evidence of a p erson o f t he name d' yens, who was at present in America. The affilili which he then read described Oliver to hare the same part as at the Three Cannons publicidA where he met Brandreth, that he had preriousl!X" ted, and to have told the same story with respect.r° the determination of the Londoners, and the prx-' station intended to be printed by Wooler, trig It had told on other occasions. The statement of Bro dreth set forth, that Oliver, at the Three Cacao had told him that he was going round the coi:TS to Manchester and other places, to see that all 11 right, and that he intended to return by Deill London. He said he could raise seventy theuna,i, men, and pointed out various objects which it isoi•L be for them to secure, immediately on the brelil of dta of the insurrection. lie eubierpicntly paid .` C;entleman here read the concluding identical spot, and yet h the Second Report of list year, which i butodte what occurred t it although the Commktee had seen ma- . Dot lei ejse Right Hon. fiend that the language and conduct of latiska *little relative t 4 is might have had the effect of encou- recollect what occurred designs of the disaffected, it was per- but he is not so precise that before such encouragement,. could The House would not d riven, there were signs of - simultaneous effectually for the count _ _