Star. — London, England, 1801-02-17 00:00:00

• Th oeythe Hoof* was this night-called on to grant them to fo enormous an amount. Mr. INN:TIME:ID role to vindicate his Hon. who fpoke firlt in this debate, in a fpeech and of the goad old times of e e w orthy of himfelf, the IL itilb Confiitution, againfl the argumeias , e Right Hon. Gentleman who teed 1, grecsly iinnderflood ar.el milreprefented him. His Hon. Friend, direaly contrary to the Rig:it Hon. Gentleman's itatenient, had declared he meant not t., reint the Supply, but only wilhcd it poflponcd r a few days, until thole Mini tiers for whom the coefidence of the Houle was atked fhould appear is their refpontible tituatiors ; and upon t hi s ground he fhould fupport his Hon. Friend. The Houle was new in deliberation en the fixteenth t . 1 c hrua:y, and they were called on to vote Sepolies lip to the end of April.—Was the '';.chequer then fuffered to become fo bar: en o f money that his Alajely's Ministers fhould make it the qucflion of a day. If the Itight Honourable Gentleman meant fo to argue; he nit& throw the ftrongeft blame upon his own eldminiftration ; and unlefs fuch blame at tached, it was impoffible fairly to refill the p r opofition of his Hon. Friend.—lt was not fair to reprefent his Hon. Friend as endeavouring to trench upon the prerogatives of the Crown in the appointment of its Minitters : but yet he mutt fly, it was his duty and his right as a Member of parliament, to with-hold the tupplies thole Miniaers, if he thought them unworthy of con fidence, or unfit to be trulled scitlt the public pule. With refped to the meafure which led to the refignation of the Right Hon. Gentleman, he feed(' not touch upon it now ; but with refped to the new Minifters, he had no opinion of their in. tents: but in their meafures and difpofitions, it was impoflible they could be worfc than thofe whom they fucceeded. lie thought, however, the d,fertion of the Right Hon. Gentleman's power afforded forage faint hopes to the country; and a change of any fort afforded fome ground of con folation, as it might ultimately tend to fome per manent good for the country. Mr. Bu %TON expefted that from the well known charafter of the new Chancellor of the Exchequer, there was every reafon to anticipate a favourable reception to his adminiftration. He thought that it was contrary to all probability that he who had by his ability and afllduity gained univerfal confi dence in his former Ration, fhould in a new litua- Tien, adopt fuch principles or purfue fuch mea fures as would forfeit the fupport of the Houfe. Colonel ADDINCTON laid, that as fomcthing al ready had been laid in courfe of the Debate of a Right Hon. Relation of his, not now in his place, ewtigh he felt himfelf delicately eircinnftaneed in (eying may thing on the fubjed, yet lie could ven ture to affute thofe Hon. Members, that his Right Hon. Relation, who owed fo many obligations to that Bank, and never a more valued one than on this day, was not impelled to accept the high Ra tion to which his Moray had been recently plea f ed to appoint him, by private ambition, but by a fettle of that public duty which had, through his public life, been the chief motive to his conduCt.— The Houk would judge whether his Right Hon. Relation, in filling the Chair, had afted as a man of dependence or independence ; and he could ven ture to affure the Hon. Gentleman, that in the new fituation he had taken, he never would be found topping to aft a dependant part, and with refpeet to his conduct otherwife in that high ftation he had telly to requeft the obfervance of one principle, that it might not be prejudged. Mr. DINT fupported the Motion for.the Com mittee of Supply. Mr. Hosnouss oppofed Paid the Right Hon. Gentleman had not only mitreprefented the fpeech of his Hon. Friend, but had uttered a Rrong panegyric on his own Adminiftration, through the whole period of its continuance ; which, however, flood contradifted by . every event of the time. For he had plunged into mifcry the country he afturned to proteft. He annihilated her Liberty, and defaced her Conftitution. He had taken away the praftice of the people to dill cufs their Rights or their Grievances ; and in proof of this fie would appeal to thofe gentlemen now detained three years in prifon, under the fuf petition of the Habeas Corpus, who repeatedly ap plied in vain to be called to public trial, and punifh ed if proved guilty, or if acquitted, reftored to their liberty. Mr. DoNDAS obferved, that if that was the cafe, the new Miniftcrs muff be better than the old ones, and therefote he a as fui paled to hear the Ho nourable Gentleman fay _they were equully made krving of co....^cdence. He could not fee there was mex reafon now to fuppore that the Supplies, shich were neceffary for the ftrength and defence of the country, fhould be naitapplied than on any preceding period of the was. Mr. !she Notts Paid, he law no reafon for rdfu -sag to rePoie confidence in the Right Honour able Gentle n, whom it was now underftood • his hiajelky's Chancellor of the Exchequer, " who had fo ably and refpeftably fill,:cl the Chair of that Houfe. He mutt fee inftances of niifeonduft in that Right Honourable Gentleman before h e wou ld re f u te him confidence, or before be would diftruit him fo far as to refute Supplies. He coalidered the retirement from office of the It' gin Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Pitt) as molt ; he was not out-voted in the 't." 11 :9 or in the Council, and he had libelled his .:reign by raying, that his Majefty had aged ontradiiftion to the advice of his Council. 4_l loud cry of order/ ardor!—chair! chair! efr. PITT fpoke to order. He faid the Honour abk. Gentleman was not (peaking to the queßion e bef,o.rr . _the Houle, and. had introduced the name ‘g 411 Meay in an im manner, at the fame ti•me allu d ing to an exp l 2c e n r xwhich-he (Mr. Pitt) Lid not ufed. Mr. Memo:. Ls refumed—he conceived himfelf I~~i able fkuofuriconsuing the hettnainmg eupoofnhistheMacanda the icalforof Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Pitt). He Pedaled in laying, that that Rig ht Honourable human had libelled his blajefty, :by fuppofiug cs tubleolaftmg coatntry to the e&see of ▪ CountiL He agreed, however, with. other Honourable Gentlemen, that the Supplies oul;11, not to he voted until a pledge of relponlibility for their application was gi-en by the per fun to a horn that branch of public afrairs had been entruiled by his Majefly. _ Mr.'Prir fpoke in explanation, and again de nied the exprcflion imputed to him by Mr. Nicholls. Mr. SII ERIP laid, that if Lver there was a moment when plain-dealing, and fair fiatement was necelfary, it wa, at the piefent moment.— When the Houle ought to be informed fully and fairly of all material 1:111, and not treated with juggle upon juggle, as had been too much the cafe. The Hun. Gentleman had fuppofed his Hon. Friend to be out of order in naming the Sovereign in his fpecch. He denied that his Hon. Friend was diforderly in naming the King. It was true, that the King's name was never to be tiled in that Houfe for the purpofe of over awing their debates; but if Mitiillers fprcad ru mours and reports which tended to injure the cha raaer of their Sovereign, then it was not only fit ting and becoming in that Houfe, but alfo their bounden duty ca take notice of it. He thought the Hon. Gentleman had, inlicad of explanation, treated them with great prevarication as to the grounds upon which he had quitted his office : whatever they were he had denied that the ru mours which were in circulation had any founda tion. The charge or insinuation of his Hon. Friend, let them call it what they would, that they had gone out of office, not being outvoted in the Cabinet, but becaufe they were refufed fup port by that Houle, but that they had Rated themfelves to have refigned becau'b his Majefly would not adopt the opinion of his Cabinet as to a great and important meafure; that did bring a heavy charge upon his Majeity, and for which his Learned Frierd had rightly complained of , them before that Houfe. lie was told that a day of enquiry would focln come : he Sincerely truflcd that it would be an early clay, therefore at prefent he would not attempt to trace thofe rumours to their fourcc. But an Hon. Gentleman had made a whimsical dillinCtion between the independent part of the Houle. The Hon. Gentleman to be lure, had great experience in thole matters, but furely they were all independent, the mentioning however the independence of fome, implied a Strong doubt that it was not fo with all of them. He could not agree with another Hon. Gentleman, (Mr. Dundas) that his Hon. Friend (Mr. Whit lace.ad) in what he fail, had arraigned the whole conduit of the Houfe; it was not fo. He might fay that you carried on the war feebly and unliiccers fully, with impotence and want of Skill, and there fore we blame you ; but this was not blaming the Houle for putting into their hands the means of carrying it on with Skill, vigour, and aaivity. fault was not found c ith the Houfe for giv ing. thufe means, but with the Adminittration %%hid: mifuled thole means fo put into their hands. I His Honourable Friend had laid, and juilly they had retired unconiuitutionally from their of fice& But how did they retire ?—having accu- . mulated 300,000,000 of debt, anti facriticed two hundred thradand lives; leaving us without an ally, and all Europe confederated againft us.— This was the clay in which the Houk was to be congratulated as Similar to the year 84. How bitterly, in their hearts, did not the (even-eighths of that Houle lament the confidence they had re poled in the Adminiflration ? How much did they not regret that the overtures for Peace from Bo lupine were rejeded ? How much more did they not regret that the Negociation with M. Otto was broke, under pretext of our faith to the Emperor; and when that flimfy pretext was removed, did they not now lament that no attempt was made to re new it ?—How all this could be reconciled to the fix-feveaths of the Houfe, and the nine-tenths of the country, he left thole Hon. Gentlemen to ex plain. But the Hon. Gentleman had done as he was always accullorned to do when hard preffed ; he had fhifted his ground. He had told them that they ought not to harbour any jealonfy be caufe the country was in a critical fituation, and was going from bad to worfe. If they were to admit of this fort of argument, the whole fundions of Parliament would be fufpended in watching over the condu& of Minifters. But as he took it, the queflion before them was, whether any injury could arife to the country from a few days delay ? and whether they ought not to demand the pre tence of the new Mintfler, to whom the expendi tore of the bums voted were to be confided ? The I lon. Gentleman, in aniwer to what had fallen from that tide of the Houfe,had laid, that he was rcfponfible for all done by him : no doubt he was fb. He would be refponfible forthe loan—he would be refponfihle for the new taxes ;—bnt he wanted to fee in their places, thofe to whom thedifiribution of the money was to be entruffed. But the Hon. Gentleman quoted the precedent of 1784,when the fame oppafition was made to the tame motion upon his coming into Adminiflration. Whether she Oppolition at that time was right or not, he would not mow diicufs with him. He law near him an Hon. Fricud (Mr. Windham), who was then in Oppofition, and he would leave them privately between themfolves to difcufs that quer. tion. The Hon. Gentleman, however, raid, that he felt it his duty, bef:re he quitted his otlice,•to bring forward the ctlimate of Supply, and Ways' and:T.leins for the year ; this condo& was not ac cording to precedent. Upon a former occasion he could not trace a refuge of fuch fort of con dua, and he remembered to have found only an empty Catchall in the treafury ; and the queflion naturally arofe. Why does the Hon. Gentleman now do it ? The anfwer as naturally occurred, be caufe the Hon. Gentleman knew that thofe who were about to facceed him would tread in the fame Reps that he had previoufly done. This the Houfe mull believe was only grounded upon Cul picion, according to tile on. Gentleman, but that fulkicion was grounded upon the decla ration of one of his Majefly 's Minifters in anti titer Houfe, but to which he could not at m ina reignite) , allude. He however concluded, that the Honourable Gentleman could not anfwer whether the Gentleman alluded to would even take his feat or not. Did he not recollea an in-. Baum is z Ai, of a lok)ie Relation. of his own, Nvha :s! vol rw: oiler appcio:nlent, xviC.nut lare ing performed on.: ollicrti ;., t. • 1:1!?1 , 2 cafe might occur again, and th-reinrc wuntcd to fee the New Isdinider in his place, and hear from himfelf a dechration of his `:•!•iirc line of condn!l.—He thought this was :t duty that they owed to thernfclvec, to their con- Ilituents, and to their country, before they agreed in the prefent vote. But the Honourable Gentle man told them that they might have great confi dence in the new Adminiaration. It they were gravely to tell this to our allies, (if indeed we had one to tell it to) if we were to tell it to Europ, he was Pure that the univerfal anlwcr wodld b.: that they denied it. Here, too, lie would ampofe that the nine•tenths of the country had v.:lnce,' the former Adminill ration their molt cordial inpport ; when five or fix of the molt experien:ed of then; quit their Rations, were they to hare the fame con fidence in thofe who remained? lie had heard, in clearing Ihip for :talon, of throe i:7• . ; overboard lumber and trumpery, but who ever threw over their great guns? It only a few caronnades were left upon the deck, was the as able to tight as with her heavy artillery on board ? He never heard of cutting away the ruddee of a Ihip to enable her to fail with more certainty, nor could he conceive, ii after all the witdom and vigour of Adminifira tion was fubtraded front it, it could proceed with equal vigour in the fame cottrfe, and the fame battle with equal ftrength. Th.T.: was a place, he laid, well known to that Houfc, n.ancly, an Ele6lipn Committee, where it was fo much ap prehended that party influence might warp iode pendance, that the lay. yers had a Fltrafe which they called " knocking out the brains of the lit!." So he thought that they had fairly knoeked 0. , t the brains of Adminiftration, and putti.ag a mask upon the empty fkull, exclaimed, here ! here ! here's a vigorous fkeleton ! Of their fuccelfors he would not now fay a word—hereafter they would have ample time to difcufs that queftion. He admit ted in the fulleft extent his Majefty's prerogative to chute his own Minifters ; and with refpect to thofe upon whom his choice had lait fallen— of him who had fat in the chair, he was ready to bear full tellimony of his able and meritori ous conduEt in that Ration. He honed, however, to hear him in his new fituation give a pledge of conclud in all refpeets the very reverie of that purfued by his predecelror.—" If I were to addrefs you, Mr. Speaker," faidhc, "I would fay,follow the fame path purfued by your pretleceffor,and you will, as I doubt not but you meritoriowly will, obtain the favour, the confidence, and the refpeet of the Houfe ;" but to him I would lily, " depart in any refpea from the condat of your predeeeifor—give us peace for war—give us plain dealing and fince. rity for chicane and equivocation—g:ve us (econo mical arrangements ia lieu of lavilli and prol'ule expenditure—reitore the liberties of the people from the new impofed thackles, and let honours and penfions be the teward of merit is cad of the Ilavith recompence cf proftituted de cndance : upon theli: grounds, I :ball be har,pv to give you my heartfelt fupport."—He cotici!:ded by obferv ing, that upon the quettirn bif , rc ;he Route he thought that a fmall deiay wou'.l not be important, and therefore he vote for it. Mr. PITT begged the itu:iilg:_nce of the Houfe for a few words, as much of what had been fetid feemed to be pointed perfanally at hin.felf. He alluded to the infinua:ions of an I :on. Gentleman (Mr. Nicholls), rerp:tding the Catln , lie quel ion, which infinuations, he mu`.l affert, were wholly unfounded--on that point he earneflly wilhed nut to be mifunderftood. It was not ye. y probable that he thould have encouraged the prrpofttion of any rumours prejudicial to his Soy ereign's fime, who through a lung courfe of publhc lire had uni formly experienced the gracious regard and in dulgence of that Sovereign, for which he felt bound to him by every tie of duty, gratitude, and affection.—The rumours indeed which have been fpread abroad were fo far founded, that it was upon account of the turn which the Catholic queaion took, the fuccefs'of which he had conceived to he effentially necetfary to the ftrength, profperity, and unanimity of the United Kingdoms, that he felt himfelf bound, in confciencc and in honour, to give in his refignation. This much he would not hefitate to explain as to the motive of his re fignation; but he trufted it mull be looked upon as a new dodrine to alien that a Minifler was ob liged to atlign every motive which might influ ence his refignation. He mull venture to believe that it never before was imputed as a crime to rclinquith a high and honourable fituation, which it was the ambition of his life and the patlion of his heart to continue to fill, as long as his exer tions could contribute to the welfare of his country, becaufe he felt that a further continuance in that fi tuation had become incompatible with that condo& which the didates of his honour and of his canfei ence prefcribed. He would only add, that as to the merits of the Catholic quell:ion, and the propriety of the fentiments which he entertained refpeding it, he would now fay nothing more ; he would rather leave the part he embraced in it to the more enlightened judgment of the Country, and to the impartial decition of poderity. The ear- I y (lift:id:non and decifion of that queflion he thought were incumbent upon thofe who under the cir cumftances of the Union, which they were fo aufpicious to effoluate, contidered it as a meafure of the utmoli importance to the thength and tranquillity of the Empire. So thong was his conviaion of the propriety and neceffity of that meafitre, that he could not continue to remain a Member of that Government which deemed it in ' expedient to entertain it. Whatever his future opinion and conduft Should be refpefting that queflion, when he no longer aged as part of Ad miniftration, that opinion and condua Should be regulated by what had uniformly guided the te nour of his public life, firft to take a cool, delibcr. ate, and confcientious view of the fbbjea, and then adopt that decifton which to him Should ap pear bell calculated to promote the arength, the unanimity, and the general welfare and•profperi ' ty of the Empire. The quckien that the Speaker dos near hove the Chair, was this gat and carried,waboas t divi- Goa. • " TE2 Ha.• having refolvcd itfejf into a Corn• mit,e of Sup:ly, NAVY ;STIMATI S. lAnd t.)te mute tli, ERimates of the Navy. 'll-1 , : fi.•lt !efolutiiin was, that 13 5,000 lea. mcn; marines, be employed for oiL, I:A6c: o tl..:year. _ . _ Nfr. TIFRNI v did not fee the nccernty of the ad dition that was made to the mtrnber voted laft year, and that voted the year before. Mr. PITT fah], that the .1.1 i;tion was only that of 1 . 7,i.:30 men, and that !:inft be moldered as very hick, whin comp:ln...l 33.:th the danger to witch y was e . :;-/fed, and to the care that Ihou:d be taken of nav:d coolequence and f .periority.—The tir t Ref lotion then gaffed. It was 11,',:t rctol red, that tun of 2,47 7,6301. be granted for the wages, .Stc. of thole men, at the rate of tl. 173. per month for each man. That the Mtn of 2,05,0c01. be granted for the &c. oldie above for the Above, at the rate of 11. lU. per month for each. man. The fUTII6 for the ordnance, wear and tear, &c. were alfo moved and at'reed to. AR :•1 rIM•TES. The SecaTMy at SCAR rote to move the Efti mates of the Army. He was aware that fome thing new might appear in the arrangement of thde I:dim:ars in :om:.ittenee of that part of the ellablithment whiOt rdated to fr•.laril. But he would MA give Committee a fhort view oldie number and quality of the troops to be employed in the interior of the empire. Their number amounted for every defeription of men to 32,642; and the firm to be voted for their pay, &c. to 12,940,8691. inelmling the Irifh and Englifh edit- Hilhment. If Gent!emen 1. - Hhed frr a r rmparifi n between the cot plc:ceding years of OL war, they might (Mel it detailed in the papers upon the table, to which he begged leave to refer them.— Whatever there was nay in the arrangement, con lifted in an endeavour to equalife the condition of the troops both in Ireland and 'England ; and to extend to those in Ireland the benefits enjoyed by the troops of England, hitch as beer-money, &c.— The allowances which the fiddiers here received on their march from the inn-keeper, could not well apply to thofc in Ireland, where the inns were fewer in number and lefs able to afford them the fame benefits as here. This was made up to the troops in Ireland by a compenfation in money, which put them on an equal footing with the troops here then on their march. This compels- Ltion was to confid in 4.d. to the foot foldier, and 3d. to the dragoons, independent of their beer-mo ney ; and the whole addition of expense would amount to about one hundred thotdand pounds _; and the remuneration was to be Fait' in Englifla money, in order 'that the fituation of the foldiers in both countries might he as nearly the fame as it was podible to make it under Inch cumltanees. Mr. WINDHAM then r.mvcd the firft refolution, that 32,64 a men be v...tcd :or the fa.vice of the year. . _ _ Mr. GREY filid the Ri•ga Hon. Cantloran, in all the detail he had g. , ne through, had pafrevl very fiightly over of eircurndaiwe which t ermed :o him the rno:t drential of all. Ike meant the large addition which vv.t. a'acut to he made to the regular army. By ac1,1:;:x zoo men to each 6:ac t:ll:ion. the number railed would exceed 20,c0c. For tucafure no motive hid been afllgned Alter the tilt which had beat made by Minifiers of the military force enmities' to them, the 'joule ought to paufe before it added to their means of entailing dic;race and dilaitc: the country. fic.w were the:c men to be yed Goverimeut furely could not a& for greater means of carrying on offentive operatik‘m, and i!'thei sere meant for defence, would it not be much better to en creak the Militia Mr. WINDHAM faid he expeded little diirrrenee of opinion upon this ilibjed, and what had fallen from the Honourable Gentleman had. fitiprii . ed him not a little. It was rather fingular to intim ate that it would be of advantage to the country to have a defenfive force which could not, and which the enemy would know, could not carry on any offenfive operations. Now, for the first time lince the beginning of the war, we mull confine ourfelves to (I.:fence. But it would be highly im polij: to form our nliiitary arrangements upon circenviances which Nvt.tild only he temporary.— Without difparaogemcnt to ;lir Militia, he mutt be allowed to • fay he thought the Regulars might be of greater fervice even at home. It was indif. penfably necetil,ry that th army 'tumid be in creafed, and this was without d nibt the moll eli gible mode of encrealing it. Mr. Gast' replied that if the Right Honourable Gentleman's argument was good for any thing, it would go to prove that the Militia ought to be re duced altogether. He was yet to learn, however, that the Regulars would be of more fervice than the old, tried motivational fore.: of the Kingdom. Four years ago, when there was a great fear of invafion, a very large•defenfive force had been railed, and as loon as the danger wa, over, it was changed from its original deilinittion. Wil!wat one objet being gained, that force had van 4 and now when the danger of invafion seas gi,:aier than ever, the Country was Ahmed to be clei'lwer lefs. It would furely then he very proper to take precautions that Inch deitrtlßive meafures Plight not be repeated. Thong!, mu. wzre really to be railed, he difapproved toode propolcd of railing them, and though. it v-as nable to infupe. rable objedions. Mr. DUNDA3 (aid, that nith regard to the man. ner the forces had been eirip7t sd, :1^.":11er tunity would u.eur of focal im.t. and then lir Mould be found ready to (land forth in defence of every part of his eondaet. th it he would obferse at prefent, was Chit w necetlary to he railed, and that on many accsmints it would be inexpedient to augment the Militia. It had once been propofed to mile new regimmts, but agatet this plan there were two grand ohje:t.ons.--the z. Crwould be much greater, and they c o u ld not :quickly got ready for tervice. Mr. WALPOUR alledgcd, that as every officer was to have rank in proportion to the nudsber 01 Ines be reifed, the ferrite would be put up to 7i ;1 r i II Al 40 1 !t:' •r 1'