Star. — London, England, 1815-05-31 00:00:00

-care of Ireland ? aid also he would ask every Grand Liror of Ireland who had a seat in that House, whc. ter he would consent to the Resolutions drawn up y nien who were formerly. Members of this Catholic ;, :rd, and by - whom the Bill that had been primed 11 1 circulated 7 -; as now attempted to be forced upon le House ? Speaking of Mr. O'Connor, who hid :fa unanimously elected a Member of the Sub-com inee, the Right Hon.• Gentlentan quoted several i cse inflammatory sentences from a speech which he delivered in 1813, on the subject of the Bin then' ~tight forward. This person had descillsed the eeches • made against the measure,•is.“ rulfian its," and added—". Oh h may this be the last alt of English victory over poor,.fidlen, add delu :d Ireland. May the day star of Ireland arise (by ;:s, said the Right Hon. Wideman; I :oppose he Nutt the present Bill) and break by -its effulgence lit chains which Lilo , are about to rives on my court -o—Stich was the language of the man who hid '..ove up the Bill which the House was now calllid A i to accept, hut which it could not sanction without. +t» Boning all pretensions to legislation.. After' the yrit_which had been manifested by the Roman Ca- AO, it was in vain to hope the measure now sug :ested would prove satisfactory. It was useless to loceed in the business if any restrictions or _condi tais were to be attached to the arrangement which -v were to make. If it were an act of injustice to .:thhold that which was required by the. Roman Cs• , Lilies, then he would agree that the Resolutions they might have passed were things .which irglit not to be regarded ; but if it were argued that at which they were called upon to enact was to , iiciliate the Catholics, then it . became necessary to avert to their former conduct, to skew that in this :pea the measure must,prove nugatory, as it would Tpear that nothing less than the whole of what they ;quire,' would content them.. He then read the Re luiion of the Catholic Baerdin 1 . 81,3,.in which they ::clared, that they thought at that particular time : was necessary to re-adopt their resolution of 1810, n which they - had declared, that as Irishmen and as :Idiotic, they could never admit of any interference m the part of the Crown in the nomination of their 3:shops. No settlement could be coniidered, the re !ution went on to declare, till this point was con ::.ded. This resolution was introduced by a remark t , le speech faint a certain Dr. Drumgoole—(iiltsagh.) • referred to the speech of that person, in order to ,•ow that it was more than probable the author of : would nut ba contented even with. the Bill which was proposed to bring in. He then read ,part of .he speech, in which it was asserted 46 that the Estab >!fe,i Church could not be shaken, if built on a rock; would in that case brave uninjured all the storms • unie, but if built upon sand, no human power could support it. It was in vain that Parliament affected the power of omnipotence, and decreed it should exist; it was in vain that the lazy churchman should call to the, watchman on the tower that the Church was in Conger ; these could not save it, though novelty Living had its time must fall, and nothing but the mischief which if had caused would remain."— Such was the speech which had preceded-the resolu tions unanimously voted by the Catholic Board.— Fr..m this it would be seen there was little prospect of effecting the arrangement so much desired, but if l proot were still wanting, he would read the resolu-' tan come to . by die Roman Catholics, on the cede sastical clauses of the late Bill. He proceeded to Lead the resolution which declared, the proviAions of Oat Bill to be utterly incompatible with the Roman Catholic Church and their religion. and such as tilt) , could not accede to without incurring the guilt of Khism." He next referred to the memorial circii hted by Dr. Millner in the lobby of that House, May 21, 1813. That paper he thought zt was unite.. tessary to dwell upon, as it must be still in the recol ktion of the House. He remenitiereit at the time it had been 'treated with,,tnitch ridicule, and particu. . 1:11, by a Right Hon. Gentleman, now his Majesty's Ambassador at Lisbon, who contended it would et absurd not to pass a law in consequence 91 such a raper. Yet, on the 29th. of the same month, the Roman Catholics resolved in full synod, atter being i'aormed of the existence of this document, if That C;e Right Reverend Dr. Millner, their vigilant and is corruptible agent, their powerful and unwearied alvocate; continued to possess their esteem, their c litidence, and their gratitude." Under these cii trustances, it was not to be expected, that by agree i7g to the present motion, any thing could be done bat would conciliate the Catholics. He had under.: s:cod those, who formerly supported the Bill, to de. care, that if they failed of carrying that vacuum, aia of giving satisfaction to the Catholics they would give up the cause, and not continue to agitate the flestion year after ' year. If they were sincere in - th is ceclaration, and he hoped it had not been used as a ine argument to catch a few votes, he trusted it rould now be acted upon, and that they would be I,remost to oppose the renewal of that, which in the present temper of the Catholics of Ireland, must prove aut unavailing discussion. Sir J. NEW rowr thought the speech .of the Right lion. Gentleman rather calculated to irritate tun to conciliate. There was much to complain of ti all sides of rash and misguided zeal ; but why re- Ilse to listen to the prayer of large bodies of men, I>?cause individuals had expressed themselves in an intemperate manner ? lie had never disguised hie tpinion tlfat the best security which could be given t) our establishments, hod:yin Church and State, was vi afford the whole empire complete community of r glos and privileges ; but a huge portion of the ern-I I.ire thiaight different, and maintained the necessity tf s-me restrictions. What had passed out of the ll It.e was with him a matter of no consideration : r :..iiiestion was, a question of justice, and might as. sttt he agitated without a petition as with ,it. . The linuse ought not to abdicate its province of inquiry i,l O a grievance complained of, on account of the in tomperate expressions of a few individuals who felt, to piessnre. Such seemed to be the doctrine of the ktant Hon. Gentleman ; but he (Sir J. Newport) mould rather say that the best means of healing the tistiiig soreness, was to examine into its causes tem. rrately and fairly. Refusal to do so would only produce increased irritation, and among ,so large a 'b thy of men increased expressions of dissatisfaction •-•uld bi, the necessary result. The duty of concilia at all times proper, was still more urgent at a i nt:heel the eountrj was mitering upon a new war, l''d 'Alen it was the height of impolicy to paralyse 'e tuitions of it or 5 million *of your people by ra- :t'at 113CCt.' 11116 " v %tthh( r, gilt ncil Yert TPea tqatta Autiti !eclat : aval. •1 wit P :Attu m tht I isho I Jed t , le s tic rc :WO w A she si li WO j: on APP' the p it WA eatlF the I Sec! tam Fr. .1 of e . Last tea Oat Cat cou: Khi I.te bra ith Iti! Ar ab' P•C l4t al I '^ I: r. t.i a r. 1 r. is t► LL le' tat: ca . vm tr he' ibe Zeal discontent. If:the Home refused to go into the Committee, which was all that he contended for, the wealthy and respectable part of the Catholics would only be the more effectually placed under the domi. nion of the agitators. Take them out of that oppres sio:l, and the best consequences would ensue. He was y to see a disposition to ransack newspapers and intemperate speec!'es for materials, wherewith to induce the House to act upon feeling, not on judg ment. For his part, without binding himself to sup. port the resolution, he ahould cordially vote for going into the Con inittee. Mr. 13. BATHURST opposed the motion, and asserted it had always been held, that when a Com mittee was moved for, the party bringing forward the motion should state what was. his object. and to, what extent he proposed the House shou ld go. This was the common sense of the case, and the establish. ed practice of Parliament ; but it was now asked of them that they should go into the Committee, and then do whatever they liked. The opinions which had been publicly expressed by the Catholics, he was of opinion. proved to demonstratiou that the course now recommended would not be the means of conci hating them, and of terminating the existing diffe rences.. The minor grievances of the Catholics ought not to be made a pretext for going into the Com mittee. These plight be made the subject of a specific Motion. To go into a Committee on the Catholic Claims at present would be to waste the time of the 'House, for as the former Bill had not proved satis factory, there was no reason to suppose that which the Hon. Baronet wished to be allowed to bring in would be more successful. Lord BINNING would not enter on the general question, of the Claims of the Catholics, but be should vote for going into the Committee, though he might there vote against every one of the Resolutions.- If he wete to narrow his view vf the subject to the-con sideration of the conduct of individuals of the Catho lic Body, instead of looking to the general meta: of the question, it was probable he should come to the same decision that bis Right Honourable Friend (Mr. Peele) had come to on the historical statement which he had submitted to the House. He much regretted the course taken by that Right Honourable Gently l man in deciding against the prayer of the Catholics, on the grounds on which he had acknowledged t decision to rest. For himself, he did not feel that i t bad any thing to do with what any factious . speechee, which Drs. Millner or Dromgoole might have made.- Whatever their conduct had been, it ought notto affect the general question, If ever a question had gained by discussion, this had. He thought the destiny of the Roman Catholics (of Ireland) had been left in their own hands. Had they Wit grateful to that House; and to their firm and venerable friend (hir.Gratian), they might now have been in a different situation. — He regretted (the Honourable Baronet would for give him) that the petition of the Catholics had not been entrusted ni the . same hands, which were so long charged with it. and he lamented to find it wanted a number of respectable names . Which had been always attached.to it before. He objected to the resolutions, as descending to minor objeeti, with which it was not before thought advisable to encum ber the-great measure of Catholic emancipation, and be also objected to them because they contained not one word which went to give security to the Protes tant Establishment. • There was nothing in the 'oath now proposed to that effect, as there was in that brought forward two years ago ; and be, for one, was of opinion, that the Catholic who would not take an oath to support, the existing establishment ought not to be entrusted with political power. He WAS not very saw-tine as to the result of this day's debate, but he should sit down satisfied that the day aas not far distant when the decision of Parliament , ptould unite all classes of his Majesty's subjects, and bury all past differences in oblivion. Mr. BANES commented with wine slverity on the Resolutions of the Hon. Baronet, which in Ire land had, been published in the form of a Bill, and which it appeared the Hon. Baronet had not brought forward of himself, but had been gismo to him by a body of men whom he believed to represent a large portion of the Roman Catholics of Ireland. He saw no prospect of conciliating measures being succesfully pursued, as the Roman Catholics required the surren der of all which they wished to obtain without offering any security in return. Till the Church of Rome adopted a differeht mode of.treating those who might be considered acheretieal from that which had been hitherto pursued, - he was of , opinion Catholics could I -not be entrusted power, without an ap prehension that they wottldittempt to use it for ulte-, nor purposes. He thought farther ought to, be done with respect to the Catholic Claims, till they -came forward with those securities which might sa tisfy the' Protestants. Till this was done, it was not too much to say, they would not proceed one step farther in the business. Under all the circumstances, seeing no prospect of a final and conciliatory arrange ment with the Catholics—seeing the Resolutions were not .the work of the Hon. Baronet, but had been put into his hands by certain individuals in Ireland— seeing that they had not the concurrence of those re spectable persons who had usually been the advocates of the Catholics on former occasions—and not seeing that any beneficial result could be expected from the course now recommended to the House, he hoped the motion would be thrOwn out by a large.majority. Lord CASTLE,REA.GH thought, that under the manner the question was brought on to-night, it was not very likely to advance. If *it depended on his individual judgment, instead of the progress of the passions and prejudices of men. be should not hesitate .00 support the measure which had already met with the approbation of the House, although it should be received in Ireland with an unjust Ind extensive feel ing of dissatisfaction. He well knew that all melt. sums which interfered with the feelings of mws, had been resisted in their origin, and therefore did not expect this one tould be exempted . from the common tate. He look e to the speeches and politics of indi viduals, as the cause of the delay - in the settlement of the question. He had always considered the measure as not giving the Catholic . : suc h . power as to endangerthe safety of the State, even if .they were disposed to misuse it. But when he saw the pains taken to withdrak that queition from the hands of an Honourable Gintleman, •to 'whose abilities and motive both sides of the House paid homage, be thought it was now brought forward in contrast to , the spirit of the yiar before last. T heHon. Baronet asked for the unconditional admission of the Catholic, .• . . into our Constitnkien, thongs they were not prepared to be. connected with bi malfek principles on which it was known their religion would allow them to be. He wished, if the Petition meant what he had stated unconditional emancipation, to give the Catholics in the Committee the distintt sense of Parliament on that point; and they would find so decidedly against it, that he trusted they would withdraw that claim. There was, .therefore, no inconsistency in his voting for the Committee, when he said he should not vice with the object of the Petition presented by th e lion. Baronet. If in the Committee any proposition of a different nature should be made, he should give it the support of his vote ,• but until the Catholics of Ireland shoed shew A dispinition to conciliate, he thought their cause would go down hill. He con cluded by stating i that he should vote for the Com mittee, but that nso doing be should not consider himself bound to depart from the sentiments he had' hitherto expressed, or to originate any proposition on his own part, or any modification oldie Honourable Baronet's Resolutions. Mr. WHITBREAD concurred with the Noble 'Lord, that there were many of the propositions against which he might vote, but he could not think that the House should merely pass their negative upon them. The Noble Lord had said, that he had always spoken with pain on the subject; but he ( Mr. Whitbread) confessed, that •he had never spoken without hoping that the day was approaching when this important question would be set at rest. In the liat Session, when the first clause of the Bill was negatived only by a majority of four, he considered that the prin ciple of the question had been fairly carried, and tb it after that the great cause of the Roman C atholics and of .the country would be triumphant. Ile should love thought that the Catholics would then have kone straight forward; but when 1p! hound that they bad defeated their own interests, he could not but bit terly lament the c .rte they had thought proper to Adopt. The Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Peel) hid tjalked as if he was a persuaded person ; but the House well knew that he had been constantly op posed ea the tlaims of the Roman Catholics ; and it now appeared that they had furnished him with wea pons, for which he ought to be obliged to them. The Right Honourable Gentleman was an admirable col league with them they seemed to say, " You "take one side, and we will take the-other, and we a ill then inflame the community, which will end in our com e= ruin." Ho' did not mean to attribute to the Right Hon. Gentleman any arrangement with the Ca of Ireland -I. but the coe.duct of Mr.-O'Connel was exactly like his,aending toed sorts ot inflammation. It, then, there was little hope of conciliation on the pan of the Catholics, there was just as little on' the part - of the Protestants. An important personage, however, who had been introduced into the discus sion in 1813, had not been mentioned on the present occasion. The Pope, it seemed. was entirely dis missed from the debate; yes, the Pope, Bonaparte's Pope, who was to be met by an Irish Pope at Bally. shannon. The Catholics would consider, whether they were really sincere. Of their sincerity he had no doubt—but he had no doubt, also, that their course of proceeding had been wrong; and if one thing more than another could convince him of it, it was the act of removing their petition from those . hands in which it was sanctified. They must in some degree act by counsel;—but they had" rejected the counsel of that man who was the most willing, and the best qualified to advise them. He did not think it necessary to comment on the resolution— the only question was, should the House go into a Commit tee ? To this he answered aye ; for in that Comtnit tee the House might propose all those securities which items acknowledged ought not to be dispensed with.' He conceived, however, that the army, the navy, and the bar, ought to be thrown open to the Catholics. Because Mr. O'Connel (who was doubtless a man of abilities) and Dr. Drumgoole had made violent speeches on tie subjecit that was no reason the House should not listen to the Petition of the Catholics. Where was the place, and what the occasion of any consequence, in which 'a demagogue was not to'be found ? Bit because violent language had been used by Mr. O'Coonel and Dr. Drumgoole, the Noble Lord would not listen to their Pennons. So because Bonaparte rules in France we must not think of or listen to any terms of peace. He should most cer tainly vote for "the proposition of his . Honourable Friend, thoup, he must confess.he could. have wished that the business had not been brought forward at present. . Lord CASTLIIIIKAGII and Mr. PULL severally ex. plained. • Mr. WELLESLEY ,POLE * .avaidd.loud cries of Question, question /*assured the- House he would de tain them but a few moments. He was at present the same steady friend to the Catholic claims as he had ever been, but he could not bear the idea of that House being dictated to. His Right Honourable' Friend (Mr. Peele) had appealed to him for the ac curacy of the statement he had made. He thought his Right Honourable Friend's speech was very ac curate and correct : but that if it • wanted any thing, it was a little exaggeradon—( Load Laugh forivs nuter).—As soon as the House recovered its serenity, the Right Hon. Gentleman said he n.eant to say,' that correct and accurate as his Right Honourable Friend's speech was, it would certainly have fairly admitted of a higher colouring. He then described the violent proceedings of the Committee, or rather the Convention, the dregs of which were at last re duced to form violent demagogues, who skulked about from corner• to corner in Deblin, under the name of a Board, but he believed their eavings.by no means spoke the sentimeits of the'great body of the Catholics. The greater part of the Nobility and persons of the highest respectability had for some time withdrawn themselves from those meetings in Dublin. He regretted that this business had been brought forward at present, and that it haillrpt been left in the powerful hands of the Right'H•u rabic Gentleman wSo had first brought it torwird with so much splendour and effect, and whose pre-eminent talents were alone suited to the arduous task of main taining their claims, and whose conciliatory disposi tion and prudent measures were the most likely to 'obtain the objects the Catholics had in view. If the House went into the Committee, which he would certainly vote for s he should, notwithstanding, vote 'against the Resolutions t. which went securities. Mr. of •granting emancipation without any se Mr. W. ELLIQT said, he was still cow he had ever been, that on this important . . . • - truly intersting to ;he welfare and prosperity of the • two countries, no gond would •ever be done hut en et plan of mutual concession. - He leirrented.tlie ques tion :tumid have been brought forward at present. and much more that it should have been taken moot the bands of the Right Honourable Gentler, tit whose superior abiiities were so well Gtr:d to cart y it through with success, and *hose consummate pradence hid hitherto carried it through all the raging storms that hid from time to time ass pled it, and with which, lie was sorry to say, it was still so gloomily surround ed. It was a heart-breaking circumstance to see this inflamed wound kept open, festering and corroding the peace and happiness of the Empire. It was a subject of vital importance, and when fortnight for • %vat d again, he hoped to see it engage and receive, as it was truly entitled to do, the countenance and most serious consideration of 311 those of his Majesty's Ministers who had any pretensions to the character of Statesmen.—( Loud cries of quelt;on,. veltivn). MY. VESEY FITZGERALD shonjd vo:e for the Conimittee, and with sentiments similar to most of those who had preceded- him, and whatever might be proposed most resembling the Bill of 1813, was that which he should most approve. He lamented that the splendid services of years were forgotten, and the Catholic cause would have to lament that it was in other hands than those of. Mr. Grattan. If that dis. tinguished person could find consolation in any cir cumstances which had diminished the favour with which the claims of his country had been entertained by Parliament, he. might find it in the grateful and unanimous tribute which had been paid to his judg. merit, his - moderation, and his unquestioned patrio. tism. He gave his vote then for the Committee, in c ins.stency with his former opinion, and in the hopes of better time;; of those times, when the question might again came forward under the auspices of him who had before carried it so near to its CO3Sllmmation, and for whom it was yet reserved. He felt within him it was reserved to atchieve a measure which would conciliate the Irish people, which would give to the empire the best confirmation of its strength, and to its illustrious author an imperiihable fame. Mr. HUSKISSON spoke shortly in favour cf the motion for a Committee, though he could not agree to the resolutions. ( Universal crier of que:tiun, gmc‘rion.) Mr. GRA . rrAN then rose amid loud cheers, and said—ii Sir, it is not my intention to trespass, at any length, on the patience of the Home. I shall con fine myself to a few sentences, as I do not wish to give a silent vote,' circumstanced particularly as I am. (Hear/ear!) I shall vote for the Committee on the same principle open which I have often voted before ; but Ido not pledge myself to the Resolu tions which my Hun. Friend has exlithite.l. I will go farther, and say,. that for some of the ltesoldtions I could not vote. (Rear, hear.) in cunsideriny, the Catholic question it is not sufficient tai dwell on what is strictly necessary and just, we shiiuld also have re gard to the feelings of men, and the reflection of what is possible and practicable. I condemn those applications for unqualified concession. ( /leer, kw.) —I am sorry that in - doing so I have offended some Gentlemen ; but my conviction is, that such a prop sition cannot pass. (Hear, hear.) When they desire emancipation without conditions, they ask two things; first, that they should obtain their object—and, 2.4 y, that they should not obtain it ; for they put their de - nutid in a shape which must intuit - its rejection. If I had flattered the Catholics. and told them — ' you. have a right to make this demand—urge it, and you will succeed,' I should have deceived the Catholics. I have supported their question with a desperate fide lity. (Hear, hear.) I do not mean by desperate, that my zeal would lead me to any unworthy or un constitutional compromise, but that it has always sustained me, even where there was no hope of suc cess. Unless the Catholics come to the House in a spirit of conciliation, I say they will not succeed.-- (Cries of Rear.) I told them so before. I will go farther, and say, that conciliation is not only neces sary to their interests, but essential to their duty, to the duty which they owe the State, and the duty which they owe one another. If they do not succeed.. it will not be owing to any illiberality in the Protes tants, but to a want of moderation in themselves. If they do not succeed, their want of success oil arise 'from their wantiof discretion. I regard the Catholic Body with sentiments of strong attachment. The warmth of young minds may have betrayed some of them into errors, which I regret as injurious to their cause, but unless conciliation was adopted, nothing else can be of use. I shall vote for the Committee, and the sentiments I shall carry into it are those which are registered on the Rolls of Parliament. (Hear.) Sir H. PARNELL shortly replied. He was con. vinced the more the Catholic claims were discussed, the more just and reasonable they would appear ; and he hoped the House would agree to go into the Com mittee, for the purpose of evincing this circumstance. A division then took place—ln favour of the mo tion, 14 , 7—Against it, 228—Majority SI. The o:her Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and the House adjourned at one o'clock. The Favourite:, at starting, won both the Derby and Oak at Ettrony last week ; there is another Class of Favourite:, about which the Public seem . to be no less sanguine, we mean the FaVouiite Number: in the Lot ? tery, of which, by the enquiries making at the vrrious Offices, all ranks seem to be eager to obtain posses. sion.—We are not surprised at this, when we see, by the Scheme, that One 'lithe nay gain £40,000, 111 Beni-Note:, and £5250. in Guineas—the latter are weighty reasons for adventuring. Awn ATTRITION.—.We understand • that a Steam. Engine. belonging to Messrs. PRESTON and DEAN, of S t r a ngeways, near Manchester, of 32 horse power, was packed and primed with the Royal Pa;ent.ANrt. ATTRITION Composition, which is sold at No. 4, Charing Cross, .near the Admitolty,•London, on the 23d tit December, 1814, and that it . worked up to the 24th of April, 1815, witho,ut any other dpplica. don : and an Engine belonging to Messrs. Kb-meson and Lea, of Birmingham, has worked longer with one priming of the ANTI. ATTRITION than it e'er did with three applications of any othet.orticle. We also understand that an Engine, of 43 hore 'power, be. longing to Messrs. Roscot's and Dixon, near Holy. well, has worked five months with one p. iming of the Composition ; at the expiration of Moth period the Engineer was of opinion it would work at least Ave months longer, if not more, with the first applicatioht • Mao nrioccd, as and their coal wagvns, under ground, g' six weeks itlestiopt so with a single priming.