Star. — London, England, 1828-02-23 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT` HOUSE OF LORDS, Frs. 22. Lord REDESDA LE complained of the 4elay which had taken place in the proceedings upda then-Wanda the Roscommon and Leigh Peerage?, and gave s aotice that be should move on Monday AhAlt, % that the Aeolis be bettered to proceed with the evidence-in support of those claims. Lord WH A RNCLIFFE presented -sexual „Petitions far the Repeal of tbr'Peft and Vorperation • Load • D TAB A M prevented similar Petitions from Manchester, liswicis, the Congregation of Aidersgate-street Chapel, Milbourn Perf,.-ausloshor pktoes. Lord A UCK LAND presented Petitions to the same effect from Wigan and Warrington, in Lancashire, and from several places in Middlesex, Bedfordddre, and Norfolk. Lord FALMOUTH presented similar Petitions from Truro and Grampound, in Cornwall, and various other places. • 'Lord GWYDYR presented similar Petitions from Gosport and from the Congregations of several Chapels in Rostrum. The Marquis of LANSUOWN had numerous Peti tions to present upon this subject, to which it appeared that the attentionuf the country was now so fully awa kened, that it could no longer be neglected by their Lordships with any regard to the interest oldie country or the security of the Established Church. The repeal of the Test and Corporation Acts was a subject which ought, in his opinion, to be considered in conjunction with the general question of Religious Liberty% and the Security of the Church E tablishment. The first Petition having been read, the Noble Marquis pi oceeded to state, that the neat Petition to -which he would call their Lordships' attention, was from a great number of very opulent individuals of the town of Liverpool. This Pe tition had come into his hands in consequence of the absence of his Noble Friend, the Earl of Derby, who had promised to present and support it. With respect to the Petitions generally he was about to present, he begged to say that nearly one half of them contained a prayer for the extension of religious liberty in general. The Petitions wete then read. They were from the Baptists of Newton Abbotts, and Wayfurd, in the county of Bucks; from Preston; Btistel; Ashburton; Kendal, Maidstone; Devizes; Kentish Town ; East -street, Mary la-bonne; Barnard Castle; Manningtree; Newport, Isle of Wight ; and a great number of other places. Ms Duke of DEVONSHIRE presented similar Petitions from the town, and from several other places in the county of Derby ; from Worksop, Attester, Newcastie-under-Lyne; Olney, Bucks; and the Unitarians of St. Ann's, near Manchester. Lord KING, in presenting a Petiun from several Ro• m in Catholics of Ireland, for the removal of the civil disabilities affecting Protestant Dissenters, must remark that thee Petitions were entitled to attention, because they prayed for that of which they Vad witnessed the advantages in their own country. The Protestant Dis. &niters or Ireland were not subject to those disabilities which oppressed and injured their Englidi brethren. One of these Petitions pointed out the absurdity of the Church of England, which professed to be founded upon are right of private judgment, practically denying that right to others. This he thought rather a hard blow. Dean Swift, he thought it was, whcfhocl described two parties mutually denouncing each other, calling each other idolatrous, superstitious, and imp'ous . , because one of them broke their eggs at the great end, and the other it the little aae, would have been pleased to see the broad-endians thus interceding for toleration on behalf of therm who broke their eggs in the micl.lle. • Viscount GODERICH presented a similar Petition from the Profestant Dissenters of Ripon. in YOrkshire. Tsui CA WDOR presented Petitions go the same effect from the Protestant Dluenteis of Fisisguard, in the County of Pembroke, and from several other places. Lord CALTHORPE . had many Petitions to present upon the same subject, and in cluing so, must express his earnest wish for some alteration in these laws. The genuine interests of the Chutch of England, and of every other Christian Church, were attacked by the profanation of the Holy Sacratnent to secular purposes. it was, he knew, contend, d that the Dissenters did not really suffer any thing front the operation of this Act, being effectually shielded by the. Annual Indemnity Bill. But be would not consider the subject upon the marrow ground of injury to the Dissenters ; he would gather inquire how much the Act in question injured the Church of England and the cause of religion in ge oerai. The Act had thus far been suffered to exist, because it was note xecuted ; but the Petitions on the table proved that a deep interest had mow been excited throughout the country in favour of its repeal. He hoped, if securities were still thought necessary for the Established Church. that other securities would be round. The Noble Lord then psesentesi Petitions from the Pro testant Dissenters of the Midland Counties ; of Mark lane, Birmingham; of Loughborough. of Dartmoor, and Of Preston. Tie above Petitions were severally read, and ordered to lie on the table. 1,71r41e ALT HORPE presented a Petition from several inbabi. tans of Trowbridge foe the Abolition of Negro Slavery. Ordered to he upper the table. The House then Adjourned until Monday. HOUSE OF COMMONS. • A person frost the Bank of England brought up a variety of P. turps, which were ordered to be printed. Omar motion of Mr. BANICES, leave was given to bring in a Bill for disfranchising Csanbouro awe, Sir LANA TCH NULL obtained leave to bring io a Bill fox the etiolation of the Poor of Greenwich. Mr. C. PALLIER presented a Petition from the Inhabitants of Surrey against the Southwark bridge Bali. - the motion of Mr. HOBHOUSE, a Return was ordered of the sums levied on the Inhabitants of the Parish of St. Martin's In the Fields from 1806 to the present period, for repairs of the Church, improvement of the Churchyard, &c. TIM MID COIIPON•160111 ACTS. Petitions praying for the Repeal of the Test and Corporatioe Acts were presented form the followiog places-41y Mr. Guise from Gosport and four other places: Mr. DVDLZT from Birming-' ham anti various Dissenting Congregations; Lord STANLIIT from Ashton- under-Line, Churehtown. Bolton-le. Moors, and Southport; Mr. LrreLaros See learn Staffordshire ; Mr.Hellilslloll from various Ikesenting C.ungregations in Liverpool % Warrington % Rochdale, Chester. and other places ; in all thirty Petitions. Sir R. locum from Ripon, ip Yorkshire; Mr Sexes, from four Congregations in ; Mr. Alderman 'Wuon from Grafton-street Fhapel, Soho, and ten other Petitions; Mr. Mace:mow from Ipswich. Sir hi. W: RIDLEY from Newcastle-upon-Tyne, and these others. He was favourable to the prayer of the Petitioners. He considered it to be founded on the principles of justice and sound policy. ity Sir G. Has vstems from Boston ; by Mr. PORTMAN from the Island of Portland, Weymouth; and twelve other places. Lord MILTON said, be held in big hind - twenty-six Petitions of the same tendency from various Dissenting Bodies of the Couotrof York. A great many of the Petitioners informed him that they were friendly to-the prit,ciple of religious libertrtall'irver the world, and extending to all sects. The Protestant Dissenters bad always sheeted themselves firm in their loyalty, a boast which the Church of E-Iland could' not Drake. They manifested their attachment to the House of Brunswick, under circumstances when that House could not boast, of the support of: the Ektablished Chinch ; -and'etivio when the fifth generation of the Brunswick line was on the Throne, he trusted they would meet with thtjust reward of their loyalty by a repeal of these Statute s. Lord J. STUART privanted .liar Petitions. twat • Howes and three abet places ils'Caseasvoiwd Cardigaftsilic. Sir G. PHILLIPS, Irons Marrcbaster....Tbe Hoe, Member read a hater from Mr. Taylor, a Diftentinid Clergyman, stating .that he de.ired wily to urge dui chime of the Discolors oa the principle of general ben, of conscience (or all sects, ROglitli CAtitpliti as end; as thrtmekree. Pasty years-back it was dangerous . even to mention the Repeal of these Acts in Munches. ter or the neighbourhood. Now, however, things were quite altered in that respect. Mr. Guest presented similar Petitions from five places in' Leech; Md Haavir, ten from Colchester, including a Peti. members of the Church of England ; Mr. C. Bermondsey; Mr. But tpion,titzlfbryommanlamawo Row Chapel, art, from Bradford ; and seven other parts of Wilts; Mr. FILANS us, from tertian Dissenters near }hunt ; Sir R. Winsoti, front East Grinstead, and seven other places ; Lord W. Russzt.t, from -Abbe y Chapel, Taiistock ; Sir. T. Pekesuutta, from Bulikingbam Old Meeting; Sir G. WartalNDENlrotn-Wvexham, and six other places; Mr. Wants, from Maidstone; Lord GIORGI Bairrume, from King's Lynn; Mr. LE/MAID, from Eccles, in Suffolk, and two other places; Mr. Rosters two from Maidstone; Mr. CAL CRAY'? from Keppel-etreet, Russell-square, and nine other places ;1 Mr. Jonas, ten from various congregations in Carmarthen; filr. BARING from Taunton, •and three other places; Mr. BY NG, from Old Gravel-lane; Mr. W. SMITH, thirty.five from Lancashire, Cheshire, Derby, Nottinghamshire, and other parts of England ; Mr. Joni; Woos two from Preston; Mr. isisagany, from Abing don; Mr. Alderman Thompson from Albion Chapel, Moorfields; Mr. Commit , / from Tanen ; Mr. Jona SMITH, two from certain Dissenters of the county of York. The Petitions were all ordered to be printed. Petitions praying for the Repeal of the Malt Act of last Session were presented from the following places—By Sir M. W. Rioter from the maltsters of Newcastle-upon-Tyne; Mr. Poe:maw from the maltsters of Dorsetsbire ; Sir J. Correeenn, the maltsters of Ledbury ; Mr. B. Comte those of Gloucester; Mr. HA aver, the maltsters of Wallingford; Mr. LASCHA.II3, the minters of North Allerton; Mr. L Peen, those of Denbigh; Sir. J. Somas., of Lewes ; Mr. Brao, of Brentford.—Ordered to be printed. Petitions praying for the repLal of the laws affecting the Roman Catholics were presented by Mr. CA Raw, from Wexford, end four other places • Lord Mumow, from the Roman Catholics of the county of C arlow; Mr. Knox from five places in the county of Tyrone; Mr. H. Gaarram from two parishes in the county of Wicklow; Mr. BaowNnow six Petitions from parishes in the county of Meath, and four from the county of Galway. One of these Pe titioni, he said, prayed for the Relief the Landlord and Tenants' Act. Iu this part of the prayer, however, he did not concur with them. - _ - . . . Mr. FERGUSON presented a Petition from certain inhabitants of Retford against the Disfranchisement of that Borough. They prayed that the franchise might not be taken away, but given to the householders of the Borough. Mr. BR HAM postponed his Motion relative to the Courts of Law from y to Friday next. On the modes of Mr. HARVEY, a Return was ordered of all informations and commitments under the Malt Act. Mr. HAY presented a Petition from the Company of Merchants of Edinburgh, praying fee the Repeal of certain Stamp Duties. Mr. W. PEEL brought up the Eighteenth Report of the Com aittee on Public Charities, which was ordered to be printed. On the motion of Colonel Davin, the Election Polls Bill was was read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time on the 3d of March. On the station of Mr. W. Sams, an Account was ordered of all Extents in Aid issued since the last Return. Oa the motion of Mr. MAIMILLT, a variety of Returns were or: dered, connected with the Funded and Unfunded Debt, the Dead Weight, &c. &c. Mr. Alderman THOMPSON moved for a Return of all Coal I Vessels which cleared out from the Port of London, from 1826 to 1627. Mr. GORDON moved for an Account of all Sums collected and expended by the Clerks of the Peace in the various Counties of . England, from the last Return up to the latest period. Dr. PHILLIMORE moved for a Return of all Ecclesiastical - Courts in England and Wales, together with an account of the' manner in which the Judges of the said• Courts were appointed. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that to prevent the recurrence of the inconvenience which occurred on Saturday last, he should move that the Houle ow its rising do Ad journ till Monday next--(A laugh).—Agreed to. Mr. Secretary PEEL said, a notice of his stood on the Order Book for a Select Committee, to Inquire Into the Police of the Metropolis. He rose merely to say, that it was his intention the Committee should extend their Inquiry to the Districts round the Metropolis and its neighbouohood. • On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER the House went into a Committee of Supply. After the Smarms had left the Chair, Mr. Alderniin WAITHMAX rose, but was called in order, it being supposed that the worthy Al demon was about to allude to the differentes in the late Cabinet. ARMY RSTIMATRS. Lord PALMERSTON said, that in risiug to pro-' pose the Army Estimates be should endeavour to pur sue what he conceived to be the most convenient course. On each item he meant to propose a vote for only six. months, that the Finance Committee Wit have an op portunity of reporting their opinion. prhscipal jest now twas,to lay a foundation for the Mutiny Bill,: and to smake provision for the current expenses of the year. He only wished to take a vote on account of the land forces, and the sum he should require would be 3,200,0001 Of that sum, however, he wculd now on ly ask for two millions, leaving e difference to be dealt with as the House at another period might think proper. The vote of the numbers would be nitiety. one thousand and seveary• five men; but then it would., be also seen that 'such a number was intended as the ,maximum; He proposed leaving the whole suhject,, both as to numbers and the amount of the estimate, open to future consideration and discussion, and as if, the present vote had not been granted. He should propose for the Land Forces two millions, and for the; Chelsea Pensioners one million—a sum which, as it was granted in consideration of past services, could not be; diminished. But even in that case he was not calling for the whole amount of the estimate. He did not itt• present intend going into any detail, further than toex-: plain how, though there was a decrease of 5000 men intended, the total amount in numbers was higher than. in other *years. - In the present estimates the Colonial Corps was added to the ordinary estimate, and of course charged as part of the generalorvice ; whereas former-. ly their support was charged upon the colonial revenues, which did not always meet the expenditure. This ar rangement would equally apply to the Ceylon regi ment and the Staff in the Mediterranean. The Colonial Corps were befote debited in the Extraortlinaries, but that practice woold be for the future abolished, and the. whole of our military force would be placed in the Ordinary Estimates ; so that at a glance, the House could be able to see the full amount•of its expense. It. was also intended that where they could, the Colonies should pay over any surplus of revenues they might have into the Treasury here, which would go in aid of the ways and means of the war, while the troops were to be paid for like the rest of the army. Tt was also intended.that a check should be put to recruiting for the army, which would-tend to diminish the number ,of men, and of course lessen the amount of pay. The saving.to be effected would amount to nearly.l6o,oool. For instance, . 025,000 . 26,0001 . 17,000 . 06,900 . - . .€154,900 4,900 inumnim Ia the Land Forces, as to pay for the Men The diminution of Recruiting &posses is thesame Forces, for 0111corkke. AMA' the Yeomanry. . Idaking a total of Fos Ddiscellansous Sodas& Glebe shrug Saying of 159,8001 But, while he stated that as a saving in the Ordinaries, he should• also -state, that chat . sum would be absorbed by bringing thb.Colonial Corps upon that Estimate (Hear, hear!) He should, therefore, at present postpone' ping into a.datsil•of the several •i te m s , - of which the eit Estimate must be necessarily made up, begging, .hosr.l ever, to state, .that the. -numbers- now- called for were] ought necessary , for the effective maintenance of Uri Military establishments. In conclusion, be elso . beggedi to otterve, tharthewhole subject should still beis oPen! M discussion as if the pewit Vote was not called for. `'Oh the Osestion that t0.07# WU be granted to his Majesty, Cdlonel DAVIES said -the discussions on the Army Estimates were looked upon as dull as a thrice told tale, but still it was a subject which required a few observa dims. It now appeared that the Colonial Corps were paid for out of tht fatids of thii country, although, it had' been denied from year to yet?. He did not see why the Colonies should tilt pay troops for their defence, unless it was that the Colonies were kept up with it view to 'provide for the supporters of Ministers in both Houses Of Parliament. In fact, if House now agreed to the numbers called for by the Noble Lord, it would be ab surd to . say that they could be discontinued at the end -of the first half year. He contended that the whole subject of our income and expenditure should go before ,the Finance Committee, and he hoped they would look lat these Estimates with a very jealous eye. He hoped to see a great reduction in all our establishments—if the interest of the people was considered. Even in the year 1823, the number of men was nearly twenty thousand less than this year.; and why the larger number should be ntw called for he was . utterly at a loss to compre hend ? The item for recruiting was less this year, he admitted ; but why maintain eleven thousand men as depots for recruiting? There was no necessity for any such number, and if it was diminished the saving would be a great deal. The increase on the recruiting was now nearly ten thousand pounds more than in 1819. At present he would not further proceed than to enter his protest against the general amount of the vote called for. Alderman WAITHMAN said, he would take other opportunities of objecting to this vote in detail; but at present he could not agree with the proposition before I the House. They were called upon to vote for ninety thousand men. He denied that such a force was neceto. sary ; and he thought no such vote should be agreed to until the whole state of the finances was laid before the country. As to any expectation from Committees, he expected none; for in general they ended in mere delu sion, and were only fp anted when Government was in a state of difficulty and could not other wise go on. He did not go out of his way to support the last Govern= mein, neither would he act so by the present; but he was led to expect that the last Government had prepared some retrenchments, but that in the squabbles which to, k place in the last ten months, they had neglected their public duty. It was the constitutional right ofthis House to look to the expenditure, and no sinister proposition of Mini.ters should induce them to give it up. He remem bered that, in the year 1817, Lord Castlereagh came down to this House with a good speech, a great deal of good humour, and full of economy; but the Noble Lord was driven to that economy by his having lost the Income Tax. But for that, no reduction would have taken place. In fact, so long as Ministers could ruse money they would save nothing, no matter how full the poor houses might be. In 1821.2 there was something of a surplus, which induced extravagance; hut since 1817 the expenditure had annually increased. He gave the Right..Honourable Secretary every credit for his professions of economy ; but what he might think economy, he (Mr. Alderman Waitliman) might not.— Looking at the income and expenditure of five years, the former was 261,000,0004 ! th.latter 249,000,0001. leaving a surplus of 12,000,0004 ,But then, taking the loss of the Sinking Fund, and:it-would be found that there was a losrot nearly eight millions. Under such circumstances, he asked, why callfor a standing army, and that at an expense, which only a Military Com mander could enforce at the point (*.the bayonet. Sint* 1817 the expenditure increased by some millions, if their' own accounts *ere to be credited. In 1825, Ahem was an expense of some millions, and ,1827, si.x !ions and a half; so that during a period of tout or five years there was an aggregate additional expense of nine millions and khan.. ,The - country could not bear this. In one parish in the City . of London 193 c,ersons were' summoned for non payment of Poor Rates in a parish of only 400 houses. In such a state of things should not the public expense be economised as much; as possib:e? He would not be doing his duty if he did not oppose the vote now called for. In the time of King William the standing army was only 7,000 men, whereas they at present had above 6,000 cavalry, and 6,000 horses devouring the country—(Hear, and a laugh). Even in the reigns of the two first Georges the forces were not 18,000 men, though then !here was some pretence for maintaining such a number of mesh They did not now want a standing army—they wereot peace with all the world. What need thee,, be aelted, ' of 90,000 men? It might be that such' I ; tares Would not be dangerous, but the precedent was bed, sled he therefore nowlouclly protested against its' The Poble- Secretary (Lord Palmerston) was free from the squab bles which had occupied several of his cokleagues, and he therefore thought he might be prepared ' with some more more explanations than he had offered to the House. It was well laid, that times of difficulty were times of economy, and Ministers never thought of it in other circumstances. But now they were adding to the public diebts—they went on borrowing money—they used' the Sinking Fund, and now called fora Committee 'to billet them thiough the difficulties. He could have no co fidence in the Go vernment—the. last exploded, a n d the same two Right Hon. Gentlemen who were the gunpowder, were still in • the Ministry. How then, he asked, could such a Go. vernment hang ?—it was an ugly sound, and he did not like to use it, though some people would say they de. served it. These Right Hon. Gentlemen had entered into expla nations, but nothing could be more unsatisfactory to the country.— But at last , the two Right. Hon. Gentlemen were in the arms of each ether, after (waling so delusively with their firmer colleagues. • The public required men of honour In high situations, but of many of the Government they knew nothing. In fact, they might as well expect to see Liston play. Sir Ceorse Acres, or • Mr. Kenible Tony Luospkia, as some of the Ministers in their present situation— (Hear, and a laugh). In fact, they were called upon to cut down the establishments, fur the country could no longer bear them. The people of this country were now loyal and peaceable--they were intelligent in an extraordinary degree, and therefore tto each army could be necessary for our protection. He implored the House to look earnestly at this matter—to exercise their constitutional rights, and not vote away the public money without necessity aad ample information. He begged pardon of the House for having detained them so , long, but felt he would nor be discharging his duty if he had nit offerediuch a statement of his views. Mr. BERNAL wished to know why the Estinnates were only to be voted for six Months? Or could the Finance Coal mine* say that the number of men shouldle hereaftet reduce ? Lnid PALMERSTON-said, if ibts vote were agreed to without any explanation. it might ayydaki that the number called for was to be continued. But the fact was that the numbers were as open to curtailment as if this vote were not called for. He thought it would be more convenient to enter upon the wtole dis cussion at another period. Mr. MABERLY thought _the proper period for the discussion of the'Ettintateswas Weal itko T Stippl ies.were called for. This - ltiouse_was to. judge of the fitness or expediency of agreeing to this or anyother vote without any reference to What might herstifiet' be recommended lsy the Finance COmmittee..L.ihich at least could only 'recommend that we should have a peateestablisbment. The present Was the period either to give or withhold their can. &levee ; and this House alone bad to deal with the propriety or otherwise of granting the number called for. He did not say whether ninety-one thousand men would be too many or too few ; .but be could not agree with the Worthy Alderman, that Finance conwsMtees were little better than a delusion. The Noble Lord (Lord Palmerston) stated, that 5,000 men were to bq reduced, and yet be called for ninety.one thousand. Now, what he (Mr. Mai berly) vented to knew was, whit was the necessity for sock a force? Hitmuch feared that the unfortunate Treaty of July might' in its ultimate eonsequences call for an increase ; and of that Treaty be must enww_aect. that be never knew any thing more contrary to taternational iswer-snore .osjust• sad inexpedient—(Hearchear); He hoped its bad effects would pass away, and that it would not ultimately involve us in a war. Mr. PEEL was sure that when the question before the Committee was clearly understood,little difference would be found between both sides of the House. They Would no doubt listen to any suggestions of the Com. inittee; but this House was to give its ultimate jeg. ment in all matters coming before them. His Noble Friend had not refused giving explanations . „ , _bulfie 'stated that it would be more expedrentl;Wray. it until the whole matter should be brought before their notice. The Finance Committee might throw some new light upon the subject, and till then only was delay suggested as desirable. He thought he had on a former occasion sufficiently explained the duty of the Finance Corn. mittee, and it must be evident that no precise rule could be laid down for their guidance. They could inquire into some things—while in others the country had to trust to the responsibility of the Government. By way of illostration, he would take the secret article in; the late Treaty—and in that the Committee Could • I not take upon them to say what force would or would not be necessary to give it effect ; because they' did. not know its precise or specific object. He under stood that the Committee were at this moment investi gating the Navy Estimates, and that they had sum : moned before them one of the Lords of the Admiralty land one of the Secretaries: they also started in their inquiries from the period of 1792. The Government i wished:not to shift any fair degree of responsibility from' ,them, nor to place too much on the shoulders of the 'Committee. He thought the speech of the Honour. able Alderman fully proved the necessity of a Finance Committee, though he expected nothing from it ; and he (Mr. Peel) was rather surprised.that the Honourable Alderman should, on a Vote of Supply, mit up so much politics, or enter into a further detail ab'ut ex. planations, which he hoped would now be at an end-. (Hear, hear). He thought the appointment of a Finance Committee to be a most desirable thing; and he could assure the House that the course to be pursued by Government, relative to the vote now before them, would allow the fullest and -most ample inquiry and 'deliberation. N Mr. CALCRAFT had no objection to the vote of three millions on account ; but the Noble Lord said he 'particularly wanted his Mutiny Bill passed, and then asked for 91,000 men, with a vet bal explanation that they were not to be bound by the Act of Parliament, 'without which he could neither have the one nor the other t---(Hear). He said truly, we would not be aLliberty to remove the mei', but that we might take away or cut off the means .of supporting them hereafter; but surely the House could not be led away by any such course of dealing. As the Noble Lord so much wanted the 'Mutiny Bill, why not take it for the same period as the present vote, antlthen.there would be little objection to it? He (Mr. C.) did not thinkthe iteina could be much reduced, looking toihertfiature of our - service, end, to what the faith of treatiea.might oblige us; but avhat he wanted was, that the Moths,' Bill should be taken foe the same period as the present vote. Tne Right Hon. Se cretary (Mr. Peel) had charged the Hon: Alderman with. indulging in extraneous topics ; but he (Mr. C.) .meuldi be glad to ast the Right Hon. Gentleman what could be properly called so in a Committee of Supply ? ' Mr. Pitt, Mr. Fox,- Mr. Sheridan, and Mr. Wyndham, always discussed great public questions on occasions similar to the present, and never were considered as having acted inconsistently with their Parliamentary duty. - Lfaaking at the changes which had recently taken place, he was glad that a new set of performers were now put together at theTreasury-:-men who were not pledged to the follies and quackeries of their predecessors in office. That h e hailed as a most fortunate event—for neither the Fir's; Lord of the Treasury, nor the Chancellor of the Exche quer, nor the First Financial Secretary, were bound in any way to continue the delusive fallacies of those . who Were before th em as to the state of the public accnunts: As. to the Finance Committee, he hoped they would do their duty faithfully ; and for the Country itself he saw no necessity for alarm. By economy and frugality in our expenditure, our income would soon . be made to over iti—and if there were any surplus, it, should be applied to the extinction of the debt. With regard to the powers of the Committee of Finance, he agreed with the Right Hon. Gentleman that they could not erect themselves into a Cabinet Council to determine what force was re quired by the country. It would be well for them to inquire and give information to the House. but he pro tested against being bound 'to their report. Upon the expenditure of the Civil 'List, their inquiries would be much more useful, and . they would be beimr able to decide upon what its extent ought to be, better than any individual Members of the House. There was Urn item in the Army Estimates which gave him greet lie f Bret. He alluded to the keeping up of 23,000 mea for the service of Ireland. He protested against the coo. tinitance of that stupid policy which rendered the keeping up such a force necessary. He called upon the Gentlemen of England to look at this question as nee of expense, and remember that the Land Frit ces of Ire land cost this country a million a year, anclthe . system which they were employed to support was constantly inundating us with Irish poor and sent our own upon the poor - rates. These were reasons which rendered the continuance of such a system as profligate in its waste and expenditure, as it was foolish and perverse in principle.. Mr. Secretary PEEL said, that the Hon. Member bad misunderstood what he had said. He had admitted that it was perfectly competent for any Member upon a question of Supply to go into any topic coonected with the Government of the country. He had only suggested that it would be better to leave to the attention of the Finance Committee such subjects as would properly and necessarily come under their investigation. He never meant to make such a limit as the Hon. Member sup posed, or to prevent him from speaking on the ainount of military force in Ireland, or any other such topic. Mr. CA LC R A FT explained. Mr. HUME said, that the explanation given by the Rthiaegshtton F i na nc e H i sh o a l. theC Righto mHou s e Committee, it t Hon. ee 0, wn Secretary, s former similaro r me r n a t io s 8 that t the w fronthpi o c i: 0 r another a mucho f Gentleman; and if the powers of the Finance Committee were to be so limited, it would be of noes,. Mr. Secretary PEEL said, that he had only con tended that it, could not be in the knowledge of the Connnitteir what arnount of force was necessary, so weii as in that of -tie Government. gr.-HUME said,, that if the Finance Committee had not t-he means of -deciding what force was necessary, their4pinion wotildlich be of the smallest value; there fore, now wai the time when the House ought to call Upon his •Majestes, Ministers to account to them why it was necessary to rote so large an amount of Money.. He contended that the great reductions which he had formerly proposed, could be made without any incon ennience to all the service that was required. In the Colonies there was an immense military expense, which it was now acknowledged fell upon this coun try, although it had formerly been - denied. The Noble Lord opposite had told the House that that expense did not fall upon the country, and he ought now to apologise for the delusion.. They were told, too, the other day, that there was a Sin was plenty of they had been 11 "tamable Horn •eil and exposes that tbe Treasur to have a bona.) a half, and tha ducted and its c fore time for the in the state adm whether they col which required by such ellormo No man looked self at the resout but he would as 'country to go of isn extravagant io know what al ountry sufEciej establishments s -aware that the n 'but not so as to department. A tnlonies were go between five anc fateful to the p Governor, and improperly treat they like the twice elected a r;on, and then Yet in Canada tl rison of 6,000 in in the whole of t appointment of r keeping up garri the colonists. He be investigated b bound to say, th fair—(Hear)—at - seemed disposed the purposes of amount of our would have to was nothing bef forces now prop why 22,000 men was now necessa 2stantly kept up „bay. a military though they hai his gOod sense w • merit 'ot this cool • iletermined to ki ▪ ; wort break dom .paythe soldier. heir g the first 1 nottAld now ear, country tram tw .:itcwas in his por t Amendment; MACDI 44 acquiesce in t Itis!ote being co to the Governme in which one pm ...sad charges of by them again 004Ivith this siblo that* cou a viva to its sup reclueing the nus who moved the 4 iuf eirecting.his c to decide what tl until another ger had. It was u that inquiry had Lotd himsrll col S ! OM men there ~..• reduction. was F that it would hal in the estimate a ivhich the ltight the gAecb of an he heard nothing And most constit ntsfi've'of r. Ahe,.l-lonour able Fiassee-Commil ittidigGentleniati duction affectini would be more such departinea Mr. Aldermai expressed arbad.opi that the House euX Sir J. MACD tiontarwe•before th that the House wot Inuit& v . racticrble i easetatleilfer the rea Lord PALM. of the :►umber c woald. not prec m'ght hereafter what inconven smaller numbei plated ?. The a the distance at v abroad, the time the votes, but ix distance. The now that the ac piffled, fotind to done it sooner. ragement to thr znents when the the Honourable with everyimpr ao topic of his dislike it, he tI thank him for tl Army Estimate for the necessit) in our forces sit remember that down from a mi some previous y tion was, that tit complaining of the service abi service of the C posing upon thi cculd not be el consequence of encountered in an atigmentatic service abroad troops over an , little surplus sl home. He woe two years had 1