Star. — London, England, 1818-04-22 00:00:00

~ 44,00441 ), 40CEED INGS. he HOUSE OF LORDS, APRIL al. Their Lordships resolved into a Committee of Privileges fpr the consideration of the Claim o f Lewis Bymocke, of Serb/else, in Lincolnshire, to the Marmyont Peerage. A great deal of cumentary evislence wart. in on the part of the Claimant after wilds digs- Ladispe ierion ; riled the farther investigation of the ca se until this day selinight. The Haute then resumed, and t erafer prayers vere rea4, a num-j bet afprivate or local IllUs were brght up from the C.ommoisil by Sic Juice Gasman mid others, and Mad the first time. The Bail of LIVERPOOL presented, by command of the Pram Regent, in pursuance of an Address of their Lordships, specification of the Revenues of the several Royal Dukes, men ticsoed in the Address, from various bootees, which was laid upon the table. Out of the Clerks of the Patent Office of the Court of Chao. cery, presented at the Bar a further return of Pardons granted under the Gteat Seal, with the attendant Fees. Mr. Brun, front the Receipt of ifachequer Office, is air Account of the l'roduce of the Consolidated Fund, for. • y4.lra, ending the sth of April, 1616, distinguishing the of the respective quarters I each year.—These papers wen-se verally laid upon the table. • The Marquis of DOW NSHIRIE proposed, that .the Paper pr ‘ csasted that evening respecting the Incomeof the Royal Dukes, should be printed. The LORD CHANCELLOR seemed to think such a durc unnecessary, as the Paper wts upon the table, an Noble Lord could, oil reference to it, heroine master of formation it contained. The Earl of SII AFTESBURY suggested, that if the Marquis was Malik/Ito move upon the subject, it. would ' I ter to defer suds a motion until to-morrow, when his Friend would be present. • The Marquis of DOWNSHIRE said he hat no objleS. to do so. Some routine business was then disposed of, and an Adjourn• read took place. HOUSE OF COMMONS. A Penon from the Batik presented Accounts of the number of persons prosecuted for passing forged tokens and dollars, — Ordered to be printed. The Report of the Committee on the Hallamshire Cutters' Petition was taken into consideration and agreed to, and a Bill for regulating the trade ordered to be brought in. M. D. G ELBERT obtained leave tobring in a Bill to regu late thiOffice of lustice.General of 'Scotland. Lord BINNING presented a Petition from the Proprietors of certain Salt Works in Scotland, praying that no alteration may be made in the Salt Duties.—Ordered to be printed. iii .f. ORAHAIiti brought in a BiU to atonent the Salaries of the Chancery Clerks in the Report Office.—Read a first, and ordered vibe reed a second time to-morrow. On the motion of Mr. C. CALVERT, an Account, skewing the unsount of the duties paid on calico prints An the years 1816 and 1817, distinguishing the amount in each year, and the pro duce of the old and new duties, was ordered to be laid before the Lions.. On the motion of Gonad GASCOIGNE. the Costs of Suit Bill went through a Committee, the report of which was or dered to be received to-morrow. A Petition was presented from the Parish of St. Mary, Wool math, against the Parish Vestries Bill. Ordered to lie on the table. Mr. HART DAVIS presented a Petition from Bristol against he -Bill for altering the Poor Laws. . Mr. PROTHEROE stated the Petition to have been signed by nil few of the inhabitants. Mr. IL DAVIS offered a few words in reply, and the Pet/. den was read and ordered to lie on the table. FINANCE RESOLUTIONS. The Report of these Resolutions •; brought up, and leave was given to bring in a Bill in order to give effect to the first and second Resolutions. . 1 BANK RESTRICTION BILL. The Bank Rest r iction Bill was ordered to be read a second time on Friday. USURY LAWS. • - Mr. Serjearit ONSLOW rose, pursuant to notice, to' submit to the House a motion cn the subject of the Laws against Usury. He briefly described the coarse which the mistaken policy of our ancestors. had led them to take, and asserted the measures which they had thought it necessary to adopt. had by no means accomplished the purpose they had in view when framing them. He had cmvinced the Chancellor of the Exchequer of the propriety of tak ing this subject into consideration, and had brought ilia Bill in the last Session, which passed unopposed to the repat, when, On the recommendation of the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, he (Mr. On• , slow) had consented to let it stand over for further' investigation. He was glad that he had done so, for the consequence had been, the attention of the w,::-id had been drawn to it by various writers, and the subject had been treated with great ability, especially • in one pamphlet (by Mr. Cooke) which he had read, and found to contain the soundest opieinns and most forcible arguments. The only great authority that he cited In-favour of the Usury Laws was that cf ' Dy. Adam Smith ; and the opinion he had given on' this subject in his celebrated werk, he had, after publication, with the tnagnanbaity nrchich belonged to a great mind, thought it his duty to withdraw.— The evil consequence which it had been supposed would follow an alteration of the existing law, grow lug out of the sight .of foreclosure in cases of distress, he shewed were not likely to arise ; whilst on the contrary he could point out many injuries that were nouu stistAned, which were the effects of the present laws..that might be prevented if a Measure . like that which- he would• recommend to the House were adopted. The Chambers of Commerce of Birming ham and Glasgow had declared in favour of an -alteration of the Usury Laws, and he trusted the propriety of complying with their wishes in this in - stance would at no distant day he admitted. Think ing it right to bow to the opinions of others, he would not now move for leave to bring in a Bill, but he would content himself with moving for a Committee to take into consideration the effect or the existing Laws against Usui y. He concluded by moving for the appointment of a Select Committee to consider of the effect of the. Laws now in force to regulate or restrain the rate of litterest of Money. General MITCHELL thought the measure in coutemplation'would be much objected to in Ireland, and expected many counter petitions weld be pre sented on the subject. He proceeded to point out the inconveniences which he apprehended would re sult from altering the Law. against Usury, and ap pealed to are House if such a measure could be ne cessary at a time like the present, when (as had been stated in the debate of yesterday) every body could borrow at 41. per cent. interest. He had never known ". the time when money could not 6e raised on landed property at an interest of 51. per cent. He thought they ought to pass to the Order of the Day. Mr. J. P. GRANT spoke in favour of the motion. On this subject nearly all parties were agreed ; and few, if any, denied that the existing laws (seine of them - at least) ought to be repealed. lleretclore, when this subject was brou,ght forwatd, - those who objected tp an alteration of the Usury Laws had said, the question ought not to be raised at a time when the interest of money was so high. Now, the prous-i and soy chi it,. House had been told a :change was unnecessary, be cause the rate orinterest warlow, though till now • bad always understood the proper time for taking ,ito consideration the proposed change was when the rate of interest was reduced, as it was at present. — lie should most _cordially vote for the proposition of leis Honourable and Learned Friend. Mr. CALCRAFT retained on this subject the opi • nions which he had expressed last year. He should vote for the Committee, but doing this, he wished it• to be understood that he gave no pledge that he would support the Bill which the Honourable and Learned Gentleman wished to bring in, unless his opinion should be altered by the Report of the Committee. General THORNTON thought the extension of ;the measure proposed to be introdaced to Ireland 'would be highly beneficial. A law of aussiniuse was as injurious, applied to money, as it was confessed to be, applied to any thing else. Orneral MITCHELL did not wish to oppose the appointment of the Committee, as the sense of the abuse seemed to be in its favour. He therefore, for the_ present, withdrew his opposition. • Mr. Serjeant ONSLOW replied. He wished the 1 l aneasure to extend to Ireland. He knew of no part of the United Kingdom that was more likely to be nefit by it. Ireland wanted capital, which was kept Ina of it by the existing laws. The Motion was speed to, and a Cemmittee4 4'OrthWith appointed. WINDOW rat IN itIELANIN g r . R, SHAW rose, pursuant to the notice he had given, to move that the Petition presented ky hirn: from Dublin, and all the other .Petitions received frontibeland on the' subject of the Window' Tax,l should be referred to a Committee. .Ireland, for the ism twenry-tive years, had most cheerfully coutri- Suted her share to carry on the contest in which this country had been engaged. Alien peace returned, a general expectation was entertained that they would be relieved from the taxes that pressed most heavily upon them. In particular they were led to hope that the Window Tax would be repealed. He thought they had peculiar and strong , grounds for entertain-, ing such a hope. The tax, when first imposed, was to last during the war, and no longer. To prove this, he referred uq what had passed in the Irish Par liament when the Window Tax was first brought forward' in that country ; from which it appeared that Mr. Corry, then Chancellor of the Exchequer for Ireland, had stated it to be merely a War Tax, and its continuance was limited to three years and no longer, if the war should continue so long. Ire land had borne it to the end of the war, and con-, ceived herself now to be entitled to - relief. The hardships to which the people of Ireland were ex posed while this duty was continued he,shewed to be very great, and•though all the provisions of the law might not be acted upon, that they existed and . 'could be acted upon was an evil which ought to be done away. The effect of this tax causing windows to be stopped up which were necessary for ventila tion, had made that part of Dublin which was chiefly inhabited. by the lower orders, miserably unwhole some. The alarm which this occasioned had reached the Government, and the Right Honourable Gentle man opposite, who had so long governed Ireland in a manner satisfactory to every body, had, on this occasion, acted a part worthy of himself. Superior to considerations of finance, he had directed all the windows necessary for ventilation to be opened, and provided that the inhabitants of houses where this had become necessary, should not be liable to any additional charge for such windows. This measure had been found necessary to preserve Dublin from an impending plague. He proceeded to compare the financial exertions made by Ireland with those of England, and contended, that in proportion to her means, she had done even more than this country. He shewed the pressure upon her to have beer. greater titan she could bear, by comparing the produce of the window and hearth taxes, in which he shewed, from the year ending Gth February, 1816, to that ending February 6, 1818, there had been a falling off of 112,000/. • 80,000/. and upwards on the win dows, and 32,0001. on the hearth duties. Within the same period, the insolvencies for window taxes had increased in a proportionate degree. Under all the circumstances of the case, he appealed to the Right Honourable Gentleman, it could be policy to persevere in duties which wire thus rapidly falling off, and if, while the sum of 14,000,0001. was to be raised to spare the people of this country burdens which might be avoided, the paltry sum of 300,000/. (the amount of the window tax) ought not to be raised for the relief of the people of Ireland. He concluded by moving for the appointment bf a select Committee, to consider of the expediency of repeal. ing an Act of the 55th of the King, respecting duties on hearths and windows in Ireland. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, the Hon. Gentleman had rested his case on two grounds ; first, on a supposed pledge given that the window-tax should not be continued in a time of peace; and secondly, on the hardships to which it subjected the people, and on the impracticability of collecting it. He could never admit that the Govern ment were bound in good faith to repeal the tax when the war was at an end. In fact, to have done this, seeing it had been pledged for certain loans which had been raised for the service of the country, would have been an act of injustice to the put:Alters-- ditor. No pledge to repeal it had been given that he was aware of, and a proof would be found in the circumstance of its not having been repealed during the Peace of Amiens. Ireland, he contended, had been treated with great liberality in her financial connections with England. lie shewed that she had not in every instance borne her full share of the bur , diens which had fallen 'on the nation; and though more than 200,000,000/. had been raised in Eng . hind, which formed no part of the sums pledged to the public creditor, yet even this immense sum was not sufficient, and the peOple of this country had still to bear three or tour millions of continued war taxes, under the head of Excise. He was as anxious to re lieve Ireland from taxation as he could be to relieve this country ; but he could not admit her claim was so strong as the Honourable Gentleman conceived it to be. He admitted the assessed taxes of Ireland (and especially the window-tax), had been increased with a rapidity but ill calculated to produce a per manent revenue. He was, however, far from con sidering this a matter of reproach to his predecessor. The duty he had to perform was one of extreme dif-; ficolty. He had to provide for the leans of the year, and to raise the,surns necessarih called for, he found hinisetf obliged to impose the forglish tales on all the articles of taxation. That the continuance of these duties caused much distress, which had been aggra vated by a scarcity of provisions, could not be denied, and he was of opinion it-might not- be improper to afford a degree of relief from this particular tax to ;he people of Ireland—(flenr, henr.)—This might be practicable, and he certainly had it in contemplation. A schedule was preparing which, when furnished, would shew the House what were the modifications 'intended. The general principle of his plan went to relieve the people of Ireland from the additional 9.5 per cent. laid on some years ago, where, from the pressure of distress, this should be found necessary. In other places where the pressure was not so t, 'a smaller scale of relief might be adopted. h er' circumstances connected With this subject would e cessarily be brought under the consideration of the House, but on these he did not wish to enter till the schedule could be produced. From the Returns on I the tahh of the House, he was led to hope that the situation of Irelan4 hadrof late improved, and that the clouds which had hung over her would soon be dispersed. He could not approve of the present mo tion. The relief which he had announced, would, he thought, be better than going into a Committee , for the chance of still greater relief. He was willing to try what could be done, but when it was remem here-3 how numerous were the claims for relief which had been forwarded from both countries in the pre sent Session, he could not but feel, that it became Parliament to make a fair stand, and only give way in cases where ohe distress was most obvious and severe. Such he considered the present case to be, and-therefore it was that he was anxious if possible to afford the sufferers relief. Mr. PLUNKETT was sorry a motion so moderate as that submitted to the House by his Hoar Friend had not 'been acceded to by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. His conduct in this instance afforded no exemplification of that disposition for which he gave himself credit. The Right Honourable•Gentle man had contended, that Government were not. bound in good faith to reveal the Window Tax at the close of the war, by what had fallen from the Irish Chancellor, of the Eachequer; hut he (Mr. Plunkett) begged to refer them to the language of the Acts of Parliament themselves. From these, he contended that the Window Tax was imposed merely as a war tax in 1799 ; and in the Act which passed a year afterwards, it would be found that this Tax was imposed for keeping up an efficient force of 43,075 men. It was therefore expressly enacted to maintain a war establishment; ancrif this were not, _under such circumstances, a war tax, he did nut know what a war tax was. In an Act of the same I Session for preventing . frauds, and for the better col-, lecting of this duty, it was enacted, that it should. continue in force three years, provided the war should continue so long. He : was surprised, after this, that the Right Honourable Gentleman should have any doubts on the subject of its having been merely a war duty ; • and if any yet remained in his . mind, he trusted they did not extend to any body else. If it had not been repealed at the time the peace of Amiens was concluded, as it ought to hovel been, that was no reason for refusing to repeal it now. But for the Right Honourable Gentleman tw do so would be an act of injustice to the public :In-' ditor ! This objection had been answered by the Chancellor of the Exchequer himself, when he of fered to take off twenty-five per cent. If he consi dered that to repeal the Tax would be to break faith with the public creditor, he would ask the Right Honourable Gentleman if be.meant to break faith with the public creditor, or if he considered the re duction of a fourth part of the Tax to be but the fourth part of a breach of faith ?---(A laugh.) The more he thought on the subject, the more he was sur prised that the motion for a Committee should be re sisted. He proceeded to shew, by a series of finan cial statements, that the increase of duties had failed to produce a corresponding increase of revenue. Ire land, he admitted, had not c enributed her tyo se venteenths to the exigencies of the State, which she was bound to provide by the Act of Union; but he maintained that she had, nevertheless, furnished her fair proportion according to her means, and must not be taxed beyfond her strength. In England, since . the war, the people had been relieved of taxes to the amount of seventeen millions; in Ireland, the bUr thens from which they had been relieved exceeded not two or three hundred thousand pounds. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had wished to retain the Income Tax in time of peace, and had said with ! out it the business of the country could not be car tied on ; yet when the House decided that it should he abolished, lie voluntarily surrendered the War Malt Duty. Having yielded thus to the sense of the people of England, he would ask the Ri c olit Honour able Gentleman, if on the present occasion he ought, not to bow in the same way to the people of Ireland? The relief announced had been said to be preferable to the Committee. He wished to take the relief of fered, and *o into the Committee. . Mr. PELL assured the House that no man would experience more happiness than himself if any relief could be given to a country which had already coa -1 tributes' and suffered so tnuch. In arguing the subs jest, he was disposed to take into consideration the argument of the Right Moor:arable Gentleman, viz. the faith of the Irish Parliament being pledged when Mr. Corry first proposed the Tax, in 1799. In this country, many taxes were imposed as war taxes only, but which are now continued, because the ne cessities of the State required their continuance.. Mr. Corry himself had stated, that it might be withdrawn in case of peace, but no pledge was to be found in the Act at that time passed. In the year 1800, an Act was brought in, which, to the mind of the Right Honoarable Gentleman, appeared to convey a pledge ;• 1 1 but oo referring to the Act, it was evident the Tax I was to continue, even though peace should arrive. , The Act to which the Right Honourable Gentleman' alluded had only reference to the regulations made respecting windows. In 1809, Mr. (orry still being Chancellor of the Exchequer, (the Act of Union hav ing taken place in the interino) peace arrived.. Mr. Dawson, a Member of that Parliament, reminded him of the pledge, which. Mr. Cony it his place de- i s iej In 1807, an Act was passed making the taxes, permanent. There was one objection to the Till, which, if founded on solid grounds, would bean more weight than any other for repealing it—that is, I tr a pr i e h h e en T si al ve l o al f th b e tea illt et ne onseq t i b len e c tnctel e:et: the windowi closed, he (Ms. Peel) had dee for opening them, addressed to the diO ri e n 3 , spectbrs, mithorisiag them to allow th e ot „ • f upon'a certificate of any medical man that. it necessary. The consequence of this order w „ . 1 1 1 - only seven applications were made ettrons'ne s' kingdom. If therefore was evident thut tio not operate to increase the contagious fever E land, houses having less than seven wisi oe s exempt from taxation; bet it isnot so in le o ,. houses here having six 'windows were suoi , to Tax. The Right Honourable Gentleman cL ie ..e ll that mis-statements had gone forth in respect o f - injury which Ireland was sepposed to sevain be l 4 Vision. Now Englasid had taken on he r s e lf ie . e '• the debt which was due from 11-ciao:l, bersese country was not enabled to pry it herself. R e a had been said about the rdinission of tests. h at h e was bound to say, that his Right Honteareh't IterPgone to the utmost in relieving the presse:e • ca all ranks. Beyond that he could not go. Sir JOHN NEWPORT contended, that tree or' alluded to had not the effect which the -Right r. nourable Gentleman had stated. In numerous led ' ing-houses in Cork, whe:e the upper wiraletys stopped, the inhabitants were suffering under the contagion, while those in the lower apartments ie the same houses were free from the fever. It %%I a fallacy to say, Oaf. the insidious orde r h a d a y .ezt good effect. In respect to the capacity of Irelaol to bear the isurthens what were the faca—slse uttiay incapable from the distressed state of :or trade. The reventat of Ireland in the lwst , •ett n . a s only 50,0001. more than it seas in the year Ike. The opinion of the Committee above stairsdn the rated Ireland, of which the Right Honourahle (,eat: emas and the Noble Lord who negotiated ler the Uelo, were Meinhers, was this: that since the ',TrUon advanced rapidly in. point of untie% 'ne Honourable Gentleman here enumerate(' des subject to duties, and pointed cl: t: the duties, stating that the revenue ked decreoe, is proportion to the increase of the duties. ".': e R t:M Honourable Gentleman proceeded to center.i. the Window Tax was not imposed as any arced,- L: payment of the public creditor, bnt as a V'ar and for the express purpose of augmereino ch. stel above what it had fornserly beea. It was i e,setel meet the exigencies of the war. and ought hr. -4 be repealed in time of peace ; and he contended,tha in justice, in honour, in good faith, and an routfree, the House was lo;und now to eatertain the pioreaa tion before them. • Sir N. COULTItURST was in favour of, peal of the Tax, which pressed heavier en tlo 'see: 'e of Ireland than any other. • So heavily, indeed, it press, that they could not bear it. The opiate:l:f several eminent physicians wao.that the fatal fever which raged in Ireland, was greatly aggravated by the distresses of the people having forced them to block up their windows, and thus exclude the. flee circulation of air. Sir FREDERICK FLOOD thought this tax ought to be called a mortal one, since it operated to destroy the health and put an end to the existence of the people of Ireland. He was informed, on good au thority, that upwards of 3,000 persons had f.dlest victims to its operation during the late raging fret, in the capital alone. Niri to the consideration of Oi health of the people, he considered the bu:au of Parliament; and the pledge of Niemen was sixes when this Tax was originally imposed, that it sacral continue only for three years,. or during the wit- The war was now at an end, and so ought this mor tal tax to be. Mr. GRATTAN thought, the circumstance Atha on the face of tear returns now leder: tie Et e s a r i. nainely, that the Tax had declined pew in its produce, formed °lie argument in las= 4 its repeal. T he faith of Parliament formed rather ground ; and '.the general call of the people vas anotner, and-a still stronger reasen. If, bower. Ministers *Mild not . give up all the Tax, it ee4 be worth consideration, whether a pert could cot be relinquished, and this was all that many date Pei tons requested. One object in favour of spearmint this Committee, would be, that of etuptiring hew fat- this could be dote. He wet persuaded' he rete:4 of the inquiry of than Committee would be, that Ire land might be relieved, without injury to Erlizi And under this persuasion, he should vote fee the ,Committee. Mr.PARNEI.L was in favour of the appointors of a Committee, whose inquiry might be directed to the so modifying the Tax as to render i: more bear able to the people, if it should appear that it could not be repealed altogether. Mr. MAY thought this Tar might be repealed, and the deficiency be made op by the esthreenact of the collection of other taxes much less obnoxieee The Receipt Tax was one which he would nut:..; he did not think that tax was one-fifth collected. Mr. W. SMITH understood there was one circ stance attending the collecting of this tax, whice ;.t hoped never would be introduced into Eagield; and further he hoped, if it did ex is t at present re 17v land, it would be suffered to exist no Inevr, ..ana that was, that the Collectors were pet mittoi their way into every room in a house to !.2.- temal lights. He trusted that is future tl - e•: . I be confined to an external view of the hoar:., the case is England: rejNmeillalrd.edPiMadnra tlsßtuaEbtstl:ivasteuteChinaneforheortloisrntheofeconthTne:Ey4s.;c°buirl:in.-: the produce was : only 250,0001. and he would self vote, that England should take the berth ex . s . herself, since it was not a pecuniary queitors, one which regarded the health, and even esioessse of the people, whose interests and coinfOrts ought w form a great consideration with us. Mr. CALCRAFT was in favour of the aPPerif meet of 4 Gommittee. It had been stated. that set health of the people of Ireland was affected by the operation of this tax ; surely this ought to form all instant subject of inquiry. Ile was at a loss to cover the grounds on which this Committee tees Iv fused. The Risaht lion. Gentleman had, on in.ue occabions, granted Committees. on much slight h t .. grounds-ds Exchein . 'A maid, at no distant period , c ome down himself WIT er ile s h7utd pers uove llad r e e l fu if se th t e he a f a a 'imposition for its repeal. — T he Ri g ht Honour:lWe Qeutleman said. he could n ot g o oa widaset the roe inlinceilnkittr 1 :.:i. i!K a i. t'.~ 'h Pe t "' ill whelp " ion 1 04 or 4.60gh t n 5 Ez . :ent V * Cofer" duo to t fhe q g ets We A On 01 11r. .4,0013 I frofit a should trernely accoutu re ceive( vras no Westin] that du lament be disc - Mr f raetic rind w lately I why nc who ha sad 18 Lori .1. 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