Star. — London, England, 1815-05-09 00:00:00

finding themselves not bound by any agreement with Mr. Kemp, they agreed to the purchase of Mr. Daw. kins's estate—thus then no injustice was done to Mr. Keay. This grant remained as an Act of grace, favour, and liberality on the part of the Houses. After a lapse of nine years, in which nn estate could be found suitable for the family of Lord Nelson, and when one was found would the Hou:c stop short, and not make the grant complete ? Mr. BAN KES considered that the House was not justified in extpading the original grant to Lord Nel son, nearly a ninth-prt. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER defended the conduct of proposing this additional grant to the family of Lord Nelson. When Parlia ment gave a grant tor great public services to a person raised for these services to the Peerage, it required a large estate and a suitable mansion. Mr. ROSE defended his former statement. The estate of Mr. Kemp was surrounded by inacaosible roads. General WA LPOLE supported the grant. The linnse then divitizd.—For the Grant 111— Against 66—Maj rtty 43. On our re-entering the Gallery, we found Mr. LOCKHART urging a grant to the High Bailiff f Westminster of £lBO9 to indemnify him for the ex pences of building hustings, for the last Westminster Election. Mr. BANKES was not aware of this matter being submitted to the Committee of Supply to-day, or be would 11A ve made himself more muter of the subject. But he believed, from what he recollected of this cir cumstance, that by far the greater part of the sum sought for WAS unfounded. He would, therefore, op pose the grant. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER sed, that the consideration of this subject should propose till a future day, in older that further inquity !night be made respecting it. General WALPOLE wished to know where they were to step at, if they gave this remuneration to a I Returning Officer ? Mr. LOCKHART said, be was the only Return ing Officer to whom the Act applied, obliging him to erect hustings. Mr. HORNER said, he was also one of those few Returning Officers who held asituatioa of emolument. The n:otitbn WAS then withdrawn. Lord CASTLEREAGH brought up a copy of a letter sent by the Secretary of State for Foreign Af fairs, in 1805, to the Russian Ambassador, relative to the emanc•pation otEurope, and restoring her to peace. —Ordered to lie on the table. Mr. PONSONBY wished to know if there would be any objection to the production of a letter sent to the Russian Government, in 1811, relative to the best mode n 1 tecering and settling Europe ?—This docti went he had beard was accompanied by a letter written by the Nue,. Regent hinsseit ; which, he had undersito d, had been productive of very banefici.il results u • EurcTe. Lord CASTLEREAGH said. he cfnild not then give an opinirn whether those documents could be Laid on the tAbl: or not. PONSUNBY :Aid. that perhaps tic Noble Lard would inform himself, and give an 4ns: , -et in day or two whether out or both of these documents cueld be Lod befog" the House or not. Lord CAS I:I.IOLEAGH assented. Un the motion of the . CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, it wasordered that the H Haat gboold pit into a Ctimmitte.! of Ways and Means on the &Amp Acts nn lihtirsday nett. Lo;J A. HAMILTON thought that the Bank, on Account of its enormowi ibsues, should pay more to the public in the way of Stamp Duty. He there fore wished to know it it was intended to make any alteration as to the Dill on Stampb of Bank issues. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, be sh-uid pr vine an alteration in the Com illittee, which would take in the increased issues of the Bank. - _ Mr. GraNFELL agreed th2t the Public had a right to an increase .1 duty oil the enormous issues from the 13.,iik, Mr. ARUUTHNOT bronght copies of several Letters to the Luid Chamberlain and ot!lers, on the suit of tumiturr fur the PJlaces. .1 : :in CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER tauved tha: they shunt(' be mimed to the Conaniitte Qs the Civil List Expenditure, and to be printed. Mr. BENNETT declared it his intention to divide tin House, if the papers were not suffered to lie on the table for the inspection of Members. Mr. HUSK ISSr.)N they would Se wanted in the Cwornittee to-morrow. Mr. HORNER contended that this was making a conduit of the House, to convey perm to a Com mittee which ought at first (as was pressed by that side of the House) to have bean empowered to send for p•tpers, persons, and records. Mr. P. GRAN contended that it was improper to remove the papers before there was time for an; Member of that House to inspect them. After some further conversation between Mr. BA THURST, Mr. Tigittiev, Lord BINNING, Mr. Fi k kg metirc.e, Lord CASTLZREAGH, Mr. W. WYNNF, and others, the motion for printing die papers was tieg4- riveif, Mr. SENNETT mewed a petitinn fr , Jri certain InsolvelVebiors confined in the Fleet ; and took this opportunity of reminding Lord Castlereagh, that lie had promised on a former day to make inquiry, whether a new Judge of the Insolvent Debtors' Ccu, t bad Liken Appcitited. Lord CASTLEREAGH apologised for havi:lq neglected to do so, but said he would prepare to an swer the Hot. Gentleman's inquiry tomorrow. Lord MILTON said, several persons confined in the Fleet and other prisons had, previous to the death of Mr. Serjeant Palmer, 'given the necessary notices preparatory to their discharge. He now understood that unless something was done to relieve them they would be at the expense of new notices, &c. l'lre Petition was then received, and ordered to lit on the table. • VIE NEW POST OFFICE. Sir JAMES SHAW moved the Order of the Da) Air tl:e second reading of the Post Othce Bill ; and ii . doing so; observed, that the House had been in pos session of the Report'of the Select Committee On'this imbject for some time, and it would be unneceisar) for him 'to 'detain them long. ' The Hon. Baronet. then advertediothe several plans that had been laid before the Committee, and observed, that plan No. I.' whiCh estimated the expense at i 244,304. and *bleb proposed a convenienecommunication with the groat north road,,seemed to the Committee to be most pre.l ferable. It bad been said out of doors, that the et- 1 pence of erecting a new Post Office would not amount to loss than 70 or £BO,OOO. Had this been a true' estimate, favourable as he was to the measure of erectitig a new Office, he would not have recotnnien dtd it in the present situation of the country. The Hon. Member proceeded to state, that a considerable portion of the necessary sum was to he defrayed by the City out of the Orphans' Fund, and defended that measure. Mr. GORDON opposed the second reading, on the grounds that no necessity had been shewn for the' erection of a new Office, especially as the business had heretofore been very well done in the present Of fice. 'rhe Hon. Member also objected to the pro posal for allowing she City to take money from the Orphans' Fund towards the expense. Mr. HAMMERSLEY was of opinion a new Of fice was necessary, hut wished to have it as near the scite of the present Post Office as possible. He knew no spot more convenient than that proposed, namely, the upper part of St. Martin's-le-Grand. Sir J. YORKE was of - opinion a new Post Office was necessary, and. hoped that the building, once be gun, would not be suffered to remain unfinished, as some of our public buildings were, Somerset House, for instance, to the disgrace of the country. • Mr. WESTERN trusted, whenever it should be thought fit to begin a Post Office, it would be Snishett; and for this reason it was 'he objected to settling each a charge upon the country ; and said the Orphans' Fund could in justice only be app'ied by the City to local purposes. A new Post Office would bean ac. commodation to the Public, and, in his opinion, the Public ought. to pay for it. Mr. C. LONG defended the Bill. He had been a member of the Select Committee which had sat on this subject. He had never heard greater objections made to any project than to this; nor had he ever. heard any objections so fully answered as these had been. He defended the proposition for taking a part of the expense from the Orphans' Fund, and gays his support to the Bill. Mr. BANKES admitted that the present Post Of fice was inconvenient and confined ; yet the business of that department had always been carried on with dispatch and accurAcy. This was a proof that there was no absolute necessity for a new Office; and there fore it was that in the present state of the country he should oppose the public having the expense of the erection of a new Office thrown upon them. If the Office was to be removed, he did not know any place more convenient than that now proposed; but he did L. t consider the present as the period at which, with nu, imperious necessity, such a work should be under . m I'TEitWO It Tli r: as in favour of the BM. appc.ired frr.ni the evidence laid Odore the Select Corun;;: we, that for the last 14 ycP•s the ave. age sum for repairs of the present Office was £6,000 annually. l'hts, in his opiaion, Was a circumstance which called loudly for the adoption of some mea sure on the subject. Mr. H. SUMNER thought the present Of ice might be so much enlarged as to render it peifectiy ' l'uteenient ; be sisseght the system existing was pet. feet. An instaneeWhich astonished the Committee o -coned when they vi.,ited , he Inland Office: there were 155 Clerks employed in that Office; and during the time the Committee were there, they saw those 15.5 persons sort 49,000 letters in 45 minutes. This 'he considered was a system of expedition in business which defied improven:cnr. The Honourable Mem. ber was decidedly against commencing :tity expensive public buildings, at a time when money was so much wanted. The Honourable Gentleman condemned the practice of allowing the City of London to bor row so much money on the Orphans' Fluid. lie maintained, that if thoy were allowed to erect new buildings, the, e would hi, no end to the injustice. Mr. fIR LN FE I. L. referred to the Report of the CommiLtee, in which they state the expediency of ',inkling a new 'Post-Office ; and contended, there tote, that the opposers of the Bill were not justified ut their opp. , sifirol. MILTON express-•d surprize that none of . the Ci.y Represent fovea had omen, in answer to the speech of the Honourable Gentleman (Mr. H. Sum ner). The N ,, ble Lotd thought the City were guilty of delusion if they proposed to take this money out of the Orphans' Fund. It. was a pretended gene rosity nn their part to contribute to the expence, but which, in reality, was enhancing the price of fuel to the inhabitants of the metropolis. Sir WILLIAM CU RTI3 defended the City from the charge of the Noble Lord. The House would understand that the Government had formerly put t!t it hands into the city poi se. With respect to these hinds they bad been applied to the improvement of the Borough, the C;ty of Westminster, a nd rite ileighhourhood of Teinple-bar, and for other publi: improvements. Mr. BENNETT mule some observations iii sup port of what fell from the Noble Lord. The house then diviAed—For the second reading, 149—Against it 70—Maj ,, rity 79. CIVIL LIS r. Mr. TIERNEY, rasing to make has promised 'notion, f - a - the examination of certain persons, con nected wi:h the Royal H livehold, before the Civil List Committee, assured the House, that it Was not his intention, at that late hour, to detain them ter any c ,nsiderablt! length of time. NVhen he failed in ob. t iining for the Committee authority sp send ter and examine persons and records, he conceived there was very little use in his attending, whets the powers given to that Committee were so circeusicribed. He had, however, gone up stairs, in deference to the opinion of other Gentlemen, although he was convinced that Committee so constituted could not act effectually. Its the Committee he had offend tno suggestions : First, that they should inquire, in what way the Civil List Expenditure had been s'uperinten&d up to the present day ; and next, that they should state an opi. •iion, as to what limit, consistent with the splendour and dignity of'the Crown, should be placed to Ott -xpenditure. To the proposition the Committee 'greed—bu; he was ndt ao auccesslul with the other. It observed, that St would *be improper fosilit. •stimate of thiitdescription to be produced by a cons. •nittee to the Hbuse of Comtnens--• it was-pri, •nised, that suds an taignstesitouldbe • His wibh, stow, wee to ledore leimee, is riro l". ose, the right of the Oseunittse to send fee. examine peruses,* the coarse of their proceed- And, if thole who formerly voted 'agsiest his Wm on this subject. were convinced, that it was "hie for the Committee. without smaller testi- 7 - mony. to carry into effint the two points be had sug gested. he trusted they would alter their opinion, and give him their support. To confine the discussion, he would apply himself to the Werth class of expen diture—end even that he would narrow to she depart ment of Load Chamberlain. lo confining him. self to that department, he was actuated by no in vidious feeling towards the Noble L-id ( Yarmouth) who was connected with it. Since, it he succeeded in procuring the sanction of the House to the exa mination of witnesses, in that department. he would apply for the same privilege with respect to every other. That this department peculiarly called for investigation. that magn itude of the sums expended in it, decidedly pro ved. In the paper laid on the table of the House. the expenses of the department of the L,lrd Stew, she Master of Horse, and the Lord Ste for a given period, were stated in the gross. Nothiogwas mentioned, but the sum total . Now. he conceivild e that the House ought to be fa voured with 9011111 of the details. Here he begged the Lord period . t. one of the most splendid fi country. Thus, it appeared, that di60,000 were expended in the time he had mentioned, independent of £lOO,OOO which Parliament had given to his Royal Highness lor his outfit. Now, if the latter sum were not given for the purchase of plate and furniture, he &Nadi be glad to know for what pur pose it was intended ? Mr. Perceval had diqinctly stated in that House, th.it this sum w.ts given for the purchase of furniture, plate, and other necessaries. The upholsterer's bill was— • In the first year . . In the•second - - And in the three quarters - There was a charge (o or.molu of • The bill for china and glass was— In the first raft - . • In the seem " 1 . . - - In the three 1 liners - - The b::rs of the silk Mercers, &c. were.-- In the fi: t: year - - • ' . 31,000 In the • .1 and - - - - 41,000 - In ti: , .. three quarters . - 64mtio Tiie siversmiths' bill, which, he believed included articles of jewellery, was— In the first year - - - In the second - In the three quarten • 0,000 - - 46091 11,590 11,725 5 752 • 1412.$ a 1,0 t() 37,a0 41,Useri Forming a twat of • ioot) Thr sums w• re of a magnitude, which, he was convinced, the House would oeel it necessary to be he' eughly investigated.--(Hear, heir )—The Right H• , n. Gentleman theu proceeded to argue, that ac. c'ltints of so extensive a nature could never he pro pe.rly ex mined, unless the Committee were allowed to resort to viva vice evidence--and he could see no force in the argument adduced by those who opposed the proposition, that such a proceedint; would hint the feelings of the Royal Family. How it could di:- tress the feelings of the Roy* Fanti:y to see a faith ful Parliament. performing one of it,: most important duties, he was yet to learn. Bin it was said, that such a course had never before been pursued. The reason of this Was, that, when the Civil List W:45 plunged in debt, the Minister alw:tys endeavoured to relieve it as soon as he could, and said as little about the matter as possible. The only retorn the country had received, for exercising that delicacy of feeling towards the Royal Family, which Ministers recom mended, was an accumulation of debt, perfectly un paralleled in any Court in Luray. Of the sum of £llO,OOO expended for plate and jewels, a part did not perhaps exactly apply to the Prince Regent. The Knights of several Orders—Ambassadors and Governoiv—plate for great officers of state—and die investment of foreign Sovereigns—might have con sumed a part of that sum, amounting to 450,315. — Deducting this sum, there stil remained A 62,000 for plate and jewels (applicable only to the Prince Regent,) which had been expended in two years and three quarters. This was very near t 23,000 per annum. And, he would ask, was it necesc.trv, in the present state of the country, and in the present situation of the Royal Family, to lay out so much money for luxuries of this kind ? Then, to whom did this plate belong? If it were to be paid for out of the Civil List, it became public property.—(llear, hear.)—And, if so, what itad become of his Mdjes ty's plate ?—Why was it not made use of by the Re gent ?—(Hear, hear.) What was the Privy Purse for ? It amounted to £76,000 a year. Was that intended to be kept entirely apart front any purposes of nilen dour, with reference to the purchase of plate, jewels, ? Was it to be disposed of in secret ? A charge of £3.5,000, independent of the sums he had already mentioned, was made for furniture for the Royal Viii ors. He should like to know what had become at that furniture ? Certainly the Royal Visitors had not taken it away with them?—(d laugh.)— Tile Right Hon. Gentleman then proceeded to argue, that a sufficient check and controui w is not exercised by the Lord Chamberlain, over tile et peitc/s incurred ra his department. The Cimmittee of Ist 2, wt re desirous of knowing what system was acted on by he Lord Chamberlain in supplying toroiture to the Royal Family. In answer to an application on this subject, Mr. Mash, the Lord Chamberlain's Se cretary, stated, in a letter, that the Lord Chamber. iain, before he ordered any furniture, must hut he satisfied that it was necessary—that he must then nave an estimate of the expence—and, when the goods cause in, an inspector examined them, to see that they were equal to the amount of the estimate. rhey were, however, afterwards informed, that this letter. was not official—but that the course mentioned it'was always pUrsued, except with respect to tome Palaces which were occupied by the Royal Family. this tirade all the difference—tor it was with rellitieneelo the palaces thus occupied, that the in mutt** should be most scrtfpuletisly adhered to. .14 • :;! Iti b \ •1 kJ He eoeseeiall, that fermium-am is, without the ee. prom direction and concurrence of the Lord Ch.'s ' , berlain, coestiteted a private debt of the Prince R e , ge*t or his Majesty—and ought ant to be charse a bi. en the Civil List. Orders of that kind were chrectir in the teeth of Mr. Burke's Bill, and the Lord C 1,,. bedsits ought•to be held responsible for them. If t . ) Committee were allowed to call witnesses beE re them, he would prove that furniture had frequent: ken ordered, that was quite unnecessary. He c ; , siervell, that the Lord Chamberlain's office should 'not be a sinecure, to be held merely for the pleasure of the Sovereign. He should be responsible for all acts connected with it. He alluded to the service, 'of plate granted to the Ambassadors and Pleoip c tentiaries, each amounting to nearly town _ d im be said should be enquired into ; and how could tli a ; be done, but by examining persons connected sass, the Chaosberlain's Office ? He was anxious trot to make the question one of party ; and hoped, that v i , he had practically made out a stronger case n , ,it than he had done theoretically before, the same Goe donee who formerly supported him, would act shi t , laxly at present. He disclaimed all desire of inete cently prying into the minute pats of the Mora! Household—his object was to support the dignity of the Crown s and else of the Country, which ass in. compatible with that splendour usually adopted ia --, nations. He concluded with moving_... the Committee appointed to inquire it.to the iltren. Civil List, be empowered to send for Mr. Mao, lberlsio'soMee, for tin purpoo. Of czatuito• & tua; d.psennent." iTI. 1:: RE: ACM thong!". Cie moti.sn was nature of an appeal ag . linst the judp. House on a fo:mer night. The Itii , !.t .fieman had established no case to s!iew the of this inquiry. He had not gore it" the t , e to give the House the information w!iel, _zpected, hot to endeavour to cau s e it to refundits decision. On fAlnwing du/ Honourable Me m b er through the curse of his examination, he should coo. sider first his statement of the amount of e x p en di ture which he called admitted ointseit 'j he estimate 0 , 1804, with the addition of /il2O O /00 was a fair es.i. mate. The amount rcce , anisvd by Parliamen t in 1813 was £121.000 for the Lord Chamberlain's De. partment ; £105,0(X) for the Master of the 1 - I.irse ; and 430.000 for the Lord Steward ; in all, I.q. the three departments, 4256,000. In 1814 the expendi , lure rose to 4t70,000, and with the last three yin. tens to /2428,000. Out of this about 199,000 of er. traurdluary expenses were to be accounted for. He Agreed with the Right Hon. Gentlem4n, that the sub. jeer could not be too well ineterstood for the bonner of the Crown. After deducting extraordinary er. pertses connected with other dep ti talents, there wr.uld only remain an excess of betweJ“ 50 and rito,ooo. This the Right Hon. Gentleman aggravated with the sum of 4 tUO.OaO grained by Parliament to the Prince Regent for his outfit when lie took the eat. cise of th • soveieign authority upon !omselt ;—and which, h id it been applied As it was intended, and not As it had bera done, tor the benefit of the pali::c, would have produced a s icing instead of leaving an excess of expendi:ure. I lis Royal Highness .furflg the whole period of his restricted Regelicy fi lifer as. ceived any thing horn the puhlic for his csi eases, which were necessarily increased. He, however, afterwards wished not to remain placed in t'a: (mule situation of individual, sad dovereign of [Le tour.: He wits now Able to o:oto. ties , . ;inv. :a d (A . !,•.:afliii 4 4 .• I propliated so the purpenefor stilaiel at was vote:tithe sum of 4100,000 bad been employed in the liquida• tiou of the Prince's debts. The estaulislasent of the Regency cAllii nut be made in a day ; the greate4 part of its expenditure was for plate, which had nut been defrayed our of the 4100,000, but out of tee issues of the Lord Chamberlain. The expenditure tr. the three departments for two years and three guar. gets had not exceeded the regular sum granted uy Parliament above 490,000, which it set against the 4100,000 would leave A saving of 410,1;04. To give an impression to the House, that this expense for plate would be permanent, was not arguing the que:;• tion fairly. It had been stated, that the furniture of Carlton ifou - se came to 4160,000, to which were ad. ded the £lOO,OOO which, on the contrary, ought to be deducted. The furniture article, however, ais only 439,000. out of which was to be token £17.000 for the cottage at Windsor, which was the only real donee which his Royal Highness could occupy shi: be went Cu visit his family, as his apartments in the Castle had been appropriated to another purpose— Had he established himself at Kensington Palace or Hampton Court, the expense to the public would have bueu far greater. There was no reason tc pre sume that in futute years the eapenditure would go beyt nd what Parliament had provided tor. if Abe Civil List amounted to £1,100,000, a great part of that money was for public expenditure. In France, one million sterling bad last year been granted to the King, merely to support the splendour of his Crown. The Right Hong Gentleman had argued as it there was no arrangement to effectuate the ohjsct which he had in view. The tradesmen of the Royal fatally were under an injunction not to furnish any /aid: without an order from the proper officer, which sem i; them as a voucher to be paid. A corrective had tl::: been applied, and it the lion. Member had dela!, . his motion one day. the document probing the co. tenet of this arrangement would have :wen on the table of the House. lie the n v indicated the correct' ness of the staieinuits of Messrs Mash ant. vcit•-- I C I He thought he had made out a case to satisfy 11. e House, which would not feel disposed so rescii l J t' e vote which it had given en a former occasion,of_'; cially when not only information should be prOk.,UCC4_ 0.1 the subject, but the wished for remedy had iiA applied. Lord YARMOUTH s aid, that before his . 10P: : Highness was tnade Regent, his' quantity of i' l4 . x .. was extremely small ; and he was persuaded Ott: . House would not hive wished to see nil Royal lit till . ness reduced to the nece s sity of hiring plate fir the silversmiths of Lond o n. Th e King had lent . plate to di ff erent br a n c h es of the Royal kamily , a: . it was necessary that his Royal Highness, win ii " t,l" ; came Regent, should make an add ition to !us st )C. Mr. WYNNE wa s un a ble to express les astite.::: mei:t at that part of the Noble Lord's speech %it r. , i ,r, he claimed a merit for the misapplication of a fn of money voted by Parliament for at par ticular ri r. .. e t . pose. The Act of ParliaMent granted it to his K A oi . Highness for defraying his expenses on becoming g, gent: and he desired to know who it was oi.o a dvi w , i , e.... 4 his Royal Highness to apply it to any other Iwir the House to attend to the expenditure, in the Lrd compatible wit nations Chamberlain's t, for two years and three foreign quarter 4 that he threw out altogether, at the tlo e n cir s : t twee of the Civil con with the Board of Works and every thing Itis Ctiambe with Pehlic 11s• ihkcill . 4Pr i th thud, ranch of e - pt ., ' Ka CAST House alone, trades- rather in the n 1 men': bills, for twit" eiks and di tie ltillietere. 1812, *id of the f 1813. and 1814. w 4 41 . 169,1111 M. 3149poltditure• Hon. Gentlern the House would recollect, book pliat alter the year necessity of thi 1811—at which period . the Prince t had- given Committee to i one of the most splendid ides eirt e l e tl i own in this it expected, hit -