Star. — London, England, 1818-05-08 00:00:00

- ..,._. . . , , , I 1 • 1 ' I 1 1 , i . 1 1 I 1 1 i . 1 , 1 0 t 1 • i i c • .i. . . , - i I 1 , i • i ':, i , 1 ! i 1 ' 1 : ) 1 1 ' • 1 1 N, 1 , ;• - rt, sier =' st dation, - idolatrous. He shoidLtininsh m t measure earlier in the bat be • sive it might interfere with the usual tholie-ernancipation. That subject. 1 would not be debated this yew, and he hadtbarefeas determined to bring this question before the Hones He then read the declaration traosubeteotle. don, and observed, that no Protestant esnisi refuse his assent to it, yet it was not right to dtaimei that it should be made where no trot was 'wised by the State—..(iear, hear.) It might be very well the time the Act was passed, because the to the throne was known to be a Catholic ; was no danger of this kind now. As to the • of the Roman Catholics idolatrous, he thought that would not be mi nnow, and quoted the opinion -of several Bishop s, who ha declared shortly after the Pct passed clap the Catholic worship was not idolatrous. Tbe mak of supremacy was suffi cient for the safety of &s_Smbi,sicid be could not see any objection to his motion. There was nothing In the present sisbal of the Catholics of Ireland which called for the ceneinuaace of than *eta; in peed of v.-Lich, he refiered to the Resolutions passed at ag gregate meetings at Cork and other places, and read one which contained a vote of thanks to himself for his efforts to abolish these Acts--(Loud loughter.)— He proceeded to observe, that he was anxious to get the sanction of the Legislature to themeasure he had to propose in the present Session, as it was not his in tention to come into a new Parliament (Loud laugh ter.) A ft er a few more observations, he concluded with moving for leave to bring in his Bill. Mr. W. SMITH, after a short pause, and no one else rising, seconded the motion. Lord CASTLEREAGH said he had no doubt that the Honourable and gallant General was actuated by the beet motives in bringing this question before the Bowe; but he thought it could not be entertained, alt kalt in its present shape, as the proper course would be to move a Committee on the Acts, from which a Bill might issue. But independent of this objection, he must oppose the motion, because it . would be raising every difficult question on the Test Acts, without the slightest probability of its coming to any practical m .et.ary result. It did not ap. peat' that the question of Catholic emancipation was intended to be brought before lite House this Session, but the present . motion would force the measure upset their consideration, when in fact the parties most in terested did not askthat it should be discussed. He hoped the Honourable and gallant General would not think himself treated disrespectfully by this op. position, and the Noble Lord concluded by moving' the previous question. After the original motion had been changed at the stiggestiou of the SPLAXLIt o to a motion far a Com m awe, Mr. W. SMITH rose, and §:lid he did not agree with the Nobly Lord, that no practical good would result from this measure. He thou ht the doctrinal oaths were +artremely • tionable, because they confirmed and per teat prejudices of a very bane ful nature. The amendment was then put and agreed to. The original motion was ccuasquently ltatt. CaCirtr LANDS. Mr. HUSKIBSON moved for leave to bring in a. Bill for vesting certain lands in gainault Forest, county of Ever, in his Majesty. Mr. BROUGHAM did not rise for the purpose of, objecting to the motion: he merely wished to take' that opportunity of saying, that the strictest economy ought to be observed in the department of which the Right Honourable - Gentleman was the head; and it v.!.is the duty of the Commissioners of Woods and Forests to take care that in all sales of the property in their management the best possible terms should be obtained for the public. Now in looking over the Re cnts made by that department, and laid before Par liament, there were some things which wanted ex plar.atiou. It was true, these reports were of trans. actions prior to the appointment of the Right Hon. Gentleman; but perhaps he could give some expla nation. In these documents, he found there was con- siderable difference in the terms imposed upon diffe ;rent pstrchasers of crown lands, some paying at the rate of twenty-five or thirty years purchase, accord ing to the profits sworn to by the surveyors, while others paid only a ten years' purchase. The average, to be sure, seemed to be thirty years ; but there was ' one sale of land at ten years purchase, and it appeared this was made to a Cabinet Minister—(hear, hear.) Now what he chiefly objected to was that most of these sales were conducted privately, instead of being made by public auction or exhibition, which would be the fairest to all parties, and highly advantageous to the public treasury. This was shewn lisshe Re ports ; for it appeared there had been one sale by public auction, and only one ; but what was the con sequace ? Why the land sold for eighty years pur chase—(Hear, Hear, Hear!) This sale had been made to a Mr. Corb et, of Merionethshire; and he thought he should be able, before the Session closed, to bring several cases before the House, which would shew the necessity of a Parliamentary controls' Wes placed upon that department: then again thee IriTt7 the question of honours, which demanded inquir y r ,.., In none of the former inseam's. bad any money b.* given for the honours attached to the property puppl chased, though their value was proved by the fact, that Sir Walter Burrell, whom we might name es e party in the transaction, thigh he could one nag* hizu as a Member of Parliailseet ; Sir Walter Bersult had given SON. for the he of certain lands, net because they brought hid say profits in reausk, fee, it cost him yearly eighiess pounds odd to mil* s ired them ; but some were fond of distinctiee. zed he wished Sir W jpy of his honour—M —This, however, that bemoan were ld & something. He • not object to such sales; but why. sell lands at telksay-five and thirty rare put. chase; aye, even this years purchase, vnthout de. raawling one saver penny for the homer it Tbsio was another case, in which Lord Lonsdale had Ob• tained three-fourths of the Lordship and Barony of tr li A tt tfaistlale kite — iimeilthan the cost price, by elledf inflanchilnendia to the people living on eddla, titeserestio himmY all the ma norial VA, and tied_ idsokitoperty. fie would not trouble the House heftier died, as it was his iatistion to bring the subject regularly before the House; shortly, conceiring . that the public interests had been sacrificed to private considerations, and with the view of extending Ministerial patronage. Mr. HUSKISSON said, the Hoe. Member had laid down many principles, in whic l l l s ei te ra lserfectly agreed ; but it was uncandid to make charges instead of pointing out particular cases, whia might have given him an apportunity of 'hewing, that there were circumstances in those cases, which fully justi fied the conduct of the Commissioners. The rulis• had been, in his time, to advertise all sales that w to take place, giving a fulPopportunity for obtai the best price. The only sale that had bean m , in his time, was of fee-farm rents, and only to those on whose property they were charged, being to the amount of 3s. only, in many instances. The practice was to offer them at 30 years' purchase to the owners of the property on which the rents were charged, and if they refused to purchase, the rents , were still collected. As to the honour of Kenchd; he could only say, thatthe surveyors had to take into' consideration every thing attached to the proierty, which distinguished it from other property, Mutating their estimate. But this transaction wen before his time; and though he had no doubt it was conducted properly, and with a due regard to the public in terest, yet he could not give a particular explanation. It was easy for any one to say, after a purchase had been made, "I would have given much more and this was often done by those who would not give so much when the sale took place. lie had always re commended public auctions, because he thought they were best 'for the country, and for those who were responsible to the country in these transactions. He should merely say, that if the Hon. Member would bring forward the cases to which he had obseuedy alluded, he should be prepared to give a better es planation than he could do then, having had no no tictrof the complaints. Sir JAMES GRAHAM said, Lord Loirsd.tle had given 40 years purchase for the property in question, which was composed of small paymmts, amounting on to 2d. and Sd. each, in many instances. He had told the Noble Lord, at the time he made the purchase, that he had given one-third MOM than it was wor th, and twice as much as aiy one else would have given. lie could assure the House, that the Noble Lard had not made more tan 10 001. by the property, though the Learned Gentleman had stated his profits at 14,0001. Mr. BROUGHAM explained, urging, - that bis chief objection was against these sales being made privately, instead of by public auction ; and he had good reason to believe, that he had not over-rated the by tlfe s b ay arti s n. Lordship J . A s IIES G uI ItAHAV; has not made 1000/. by the property, and therefore all these churrouts and misrepresentations are un founded."--Leave was given to bring in the, Bill. Mr. HUSKISSON then moved for leave to bring in a similar Bill respecting Sheiwood Forest, and a Bill to amend the Brecknock Forest Inclosure Act, both of which were agreed to. country to claim certain debts owing to them. were then in the Low Countries, and, by A their debtors, in order to avoid payment, long detained in • prison—(hear; hear). it A intpo . ssible not to see co what slight grounds the Ate" ven to Government h this Bill might be . In his opinion, it was a measure most dis % to those wft had proposed it ; it was most _.institutional • it was hostile to the spirit of liberty, and contrary to the policy of all former times. The Lord has given no reason why he should not the information, •particularly at a time when discussion was to come on on the subject of , and therefore he felt it his duty to support the motion of his Honourable Friend. Bir. ABERCROMBIE saw no reason why the mo tion should not be granted ; and the very reason by which the Noble Lord opposed the motion, was one which went in favour of it. He wished to know if any correspondence existed between this Government and, the Government of the Netherlands, as to what description of persons were to remain in the Nether-, lands? He was confident that the real motive of the Noble Lord was to direct this measure against a very different description of persons from thosealluded to. Mr. BENNET observed, that it was a bad symp tom of the spirit with which Ministers - had carried this Act into effect, when they refused to give the information now asked for. Mr. LAMBTON, in reply, said he wished to ask .the Noble Lord, whether he had not agreed with the other Powers of Europe, at the time of the Treaty of that certain Frenchmen in andson : ',dui Banks of the Rhine should be give n nIS - to Ehe French Government I Lord not answering, Mr. LAMBIIDN expressed his intention to persevere in his motion.! The House then divided..—For the motion, SQ-- . ! against it, 66—Majority, 32. WATCHES AIM CLOCK& Mr. PETER MOORE said, there had been a Coin., mittee on she subject of his Motion which was to king in a Bill to remedy such frauds relat ye to the lataufacture of Watches and Clocks, as had been proved by the Report of that Committee, and to em-, 'body the evidence of that Committee m the BM. He expected that every assistance would be given to the to give it the effect that was required. The Honourable Gentleman then moved for leave to bring a Bill for the more effectual prevention of frauds in the manufacture, importation, and exportation of sundry wares, and forthe relief Of distressed persons employed in the manufacture of Clocks and Watches Mr. ROBINSON did not mean to oppose the Mo . - don, but merely to- state a doubt he- entertained, whe ther any Bill founded upon the Report alluded to by the Honourable Member would not be productive of more harm than good.—The Motion was agreed to, 'and the Bill ordered to be brought in. . % . 41 '.• -.- , •1a li .1 - - - &gay years' purchase. This alp is this ow from the -.. `&N, Beak . to the, publh mil kketeted not it-iuramlens sno b he 14,000 i. the pries They were they would do all in their povArt - Seed on the oath of - two Surveyors; and every trick of tl The ,Paition wens then ordereirco In printed. who had whsemeed the conwadictort evidence of they were ... .. 3 1_• ray . m o v ed la hat plipuon,• apes the value of estates, was inspo! General THOlitut3N tor leave to bell = l ve y ir dr iv bi t con fid ante loss ee lie plac ed. is rowers .„, in a Bill to abolish so much of the Acts of 26th hair j a d onn o. it t hi s w i d ow th ere was no public :4ercieel SOth of Charles the Second as required a decimation ode; if Bain bed bees, the would have graceful t• in certain cases a • t the doctrine of transubstan- fetched three thou as mucls more. he had unconstitu nation, and the ROM= Catholic wolchip been told by a wealthy individual in that neighbour. aid contr. idolatrons. He should have brought forward this hood, that he should have been glad to have given Noble Lo measure earlier in the Session, but he was three times the price for it, at which Lord Lansdale fu rnish thi sive it might interfere with the mud 43n. obtained it—ibeae, hur.)..—llut the property was a Brat di tholic-arnancleetion. That Whiles, be ondersood, uhder.reteck tett soillciendy proved by the fact, thus Bill, s CONSTABLES IN IRELAND. Sir H. PARNELL moved, "That a Select Corn nsiuee be appointed to inquire into the laws relating to the office of Constable in Ireland, and to report .their observations thereon to the House." • After some observations flan Mix. Pen, who dieted that the subject required more consideration than could be given to it this Session, the Motion was withdrawn till, the pert. PARLOR VINtRZIS: BILL. Mr. STURGES BOURNE moved that this Bill be read a third time. Mr. CALCRAFT did not mean to enter into dis cussion upon this Bill, hut he must say that he felt very great objections to it. He protested against the ,curtailment of the rights of what were called the ,lower orders, which this Bill proposed to effect. OO ' lower same principle on which Pariah Vestries, as now • • attired, were objected to, objections might be wade against all poor assemblies whatsoever. , Mr. SHAW LEFEVRE had also great doubts as the propriety of the measure, and should be very glad to hsar any grounds pointed out for this hum. vation. The only case brought forward to justify it, - hut the case of an individual. The present mode a management had been found most beneficial ; he trusted, therefore, the House would pause before they set it aside by the Bill now before them. He had c lt resented an unanimous Petition from the Borough Reading) which he represented against the Bill.—. sir poor were managed in as good a way, and that rates were as low as in any part of the kingdom. Me trusted, therelose, the House would not agree to the present Bill. ~ Ma. S. BOURNE said. that the object in view was to follow the analogy of Kirk-Sessions in Scotland, so far as the very different system of Poor Laws ifs Englund would admit. In Scotland, the wealthier classes had the greater influence in managing the provision for the poor. By this Bill it was propoted to bring back the wealthier classes to attend Parish Vestries. Their absence was occasioned by the num• bets and the clamour of others who attended, of wihom some were connected with paupers, and 'scone were employed ir. trades which made it their interest to be liberal to certain paupers. In 1807, Alr.Whit bread had introduced a measure, the same in.pria ciple, and similar in its modifications to the preset*. Surely the lapse of time, the increase a popalatioa, and the increase'of paupers, had not since 1807 made such a measure less necessary. Ile begged le are to read to the House the sentiments of NIL Whitbread on this subject. He had remarked that the tumul tuous assemblies and the clamour of Vestries had disgusted the wealthier and the more respectable classes from attending, and, to remedy this, he had proposed to give two votes to those who paid a cer tain sum of poor rates ; to others three ; and to others four, which was the highest number of votes to be allowed. Mr. Whitbread had been singularly con versant with this subject ; his great attention ensured accurate discrimination ; and what must have some weight with Gentlemen on the other side, he could be suspected of no hostility to the poorer part of the constitution of Vestries. Ile would appeal to any Member, whether it was reasonable that one who paid a third and even half of the poor-rates should have no more influence inVestries than one who paid the very lowest sum ? The same principle which was proposed-in this Bill had been adopted in other assemblies. It was so with the Proprietors of East India Stock. Mr. Gilbert's Bill had gone infinitely farther. It had disfranchised all who had not been rated to the amount of N. But he now thought it better, that the right of all, who pay rates, to vote should be retained ' • but those who p a id a certa i n proportion should have a greater ntuubm• of votes. R9YBL ANNUITIES. The CHIEZ BAHOX and Mr. Justice BERROCCII, it; their judicial robes, brought up a message from the Lords, stating their Lordships assent to the two Bills for granting Annuities to the Duke of Cambridge and the Duchess of Cumberland. ALLENS. Mr. LAMBTON said, he was induced to move for the papers of which he had given notice, because the Noble Lord had declared, that the Alien Bill was intended to assist the policy of other States with regard to Aliens; while a Noble Lord in another place had said that the Bill was limited to British objects solely. With a view, then, of enabling the House to judge for itself, he should-move for copies or extracts of all correspondence since the 30th of November, 1815, between any of his Majesty's Se cretaries of State and the Secretaries of State tor Fo reign Powers ; and in the next place, for copies or extracts of all correspondence between the Secretary of State and the British Ambassador to the Nether , . lands, respecting passports granted, or denied, to persons not subjects of this United Kingdom,• or the, , Kingdom of the Netherlands. Lee& CASTLEREAGH said, the object (1.4 Honourable Member could only be to obtain an..ad ditional discussion on the Alien Bill. In the observa tions he had made on a former night, he had merely contrasted the advantages of an Alien Law ir.• this country, with the state of the Netherlands, where, for want of such a security, the wicked and design ing had been plotting against the peace of Europe. He was sure the Honourable Member could not point out any instance in which the Alien Law had been used for other than British objects. He had always argued, that though foreigners ought not to be allow ed to abuse our hospitality by fomenting plots and disturbances, yet it was right they should be per mitted to come to this country, provided they did not disturb the public peace. He was sure the otrae Mustfeel that these were strong reasons against Mats the documents public which were moved ibr, arts he should, therefore, oppose the motion. jar FRANCIS BURDETT observed, that it w-ss well for the Noble Lord to say, that no abuse had been seade-bf this power, but he would defy the Noble Lard to spew any instance that would have metlered it necessary to send any Alien out of this callittry under this Act. Was it too much to ask of lialigirs to give an account of the way in which they bad exercised these powers? It was well known how liable this power was to abuse. He recolleseld the ease of some merchant" who were comieg #rer Mr. CUR WEg was against the bill: itwotild cm a prejudice again s t vestr i es . He had * heard to slew that it w as necessary. If vest s %re „4thm 11 tumultuous assemblies, that arose from the , orders not doing their duty. Ile had neser one instance where the higher classes area and were not able to exercise great influent order. To give every man a vote was m ol in itself, and would be attended with much m• Mr. F. DOUGLAS professed himself fi the Bill, because it was calculated to mow attendance of persons of character atVesso e , could force men of intelligence to attend,b w , to remove every obstacle that repelled oe men of intelligence. Yet, though he sras f r the Bill, he thought the principle of it r & been better adapted to the evil, and migh t move the objections which had been n al side of the House. The Bill proposed tha t who paid 501. should have two Totes: votes ; 1001. four votes ; 125/. five vot es , six votes, which was the utmost numb er a ! Now he had to object to this arrangem en • . cording to it, parishes might be ,livij e d rate classes, and seven or eight persons, seated neither the population ner the prs'i parish, Might have the whole cor,troal- 4 ;,, He should therefore prefer, that erery onz to the amount of 2.5/. should get as 601. a third vote 100/. a fourth vote; 01, He was not quite rare as to the precise adopting a scale of this kind, the c'. , jeczio. had mentioned could be avoided. MnBARHAM had known initatees •• - , , " Bogs who h a d pai d hardly any ra , .n at 4 Vilstries,. and made sach a clamour as to the More respectable persons who auem:e resesedy wag quite necessary for such aye, The Bill was then read a third time. • Mr. STURGES BOURNE moved a eb cept the City of .London from the cpsrati Bill, which was agreed tn. Mr. BAR • CLA Y moved a simllar clause! wark, which was also adopted. Mr. SHAW LEI:I.:YOE said he rose to clause that thelorough of Reading shorald be Mr. DAVIES GILBERT asked if Rea like London and Southwark, goveraed br lc Mr. a, LEFEVRE answered in the r.e;. ,sat duena:—:—The Bill was then pas:cd. - lega LAWS' AMENDMENT BILL. Mr. S. BOORNE moved the Order of that this Bill be read a third time. L.is ab cthehm libi iti M hdrunc r tuiseali . end F ersto . th qU igi t ith ic f went f ht utheseetenscHePera 41 authorize c hadßi7 L c e aa of opinion on this point in the Committee. r Mr. D. GILBE R T suggested, feat tl.l 'the time to baing forward those objectiot question Lefore the Ikuste twee was, that toad a third time. General THORNTON pretested agair: a making owners Of hotcses tented below YOL the fates.—The Bill was then read a third Several verbel Amendments were then T Mr. F. DOUGLAS made a variety at ,to the clause foe enabling the parish to , qtildren of paupers in a house of ithher. Sidered the separation of parent and child as a evil than airy Whith it WAS intended to temed7 '•••• Alderman WOOD offered an amendment' would apply to that part of the clause that the City of Landon, but withdrew it, at the if the SYSAICII4 that it would be mare con' Introduced when the other parts of the clay be agreed to. Mr. STURGES BOURNE made a few 'ons in defence of the principle ti the was, in point of fact, a return t. the Status. .saheda, and he could not believe that it woul, any additional encouragemera to ti.e roar marriages of the poor. fhe effects of the I practice of administering relief were most tal both to the poor and to the children nev intended for the benefit of the la::er w; queusly spent in dissipation, wh:lst they starving at home. The Honourable Gentle talked of the felicity of a cottage :de; ' there was an actual incapacity of maiatail family inhabiting the cottage, he seated tla was not the general character that belsm In the present state of' the poor. and the I ing them, in this country, lie could not i t thmg more humane or desirable than the provided by this clause. Mr. CURWEN felt assured that the int those who framed the present measure were mane ; but he must object to every . regulau , didnotg to his maintenance. ototheprinci principle of mak ing iv,:n the t wages equal tnc stopped short of that object would only sere Ilrm the existing evil, and to continue the Royi r ng those wages to a certain degree Rates. It was to be lamented also, dress should be separated from, and grow' any affection for their parents. for he kw the place of that affection could he sn2 good could be effected whilst the peo . f " to believe that there was no disr, ace t-' on a public fund. He disapproved, then gislating on the pm-gumption that parrs unable to support their children. Colonel WOOD supported the claire. f ded that in all the Southern parts of t wages of labour had decreased in a gr tion than the poor-rates had Idea: niary view, it was indifferent to the he received the whole amount of his is, employer, or the moiety of them. from tb but the effect of the latter pract i c e was to demoralize him. The great recenunend clause was, he thought. st would tend to at the same time that the children. schools, would learn various kind• of handicraft, instead of being, as the chile, titular district generally were, confused l ledge and exercise of one. Mr. LAMB corpses" the clime, I x to the principle of the Report, and on th the House before passing it ought to h. in view those ulterior measures e hid! * founded on it. His fear was, that the Bill Ilx , !• found is practice es carry a bad principle c lis by thus legislatively =origin igh alma"' labc u mid ere 4 'd ntxt•• Wi re r ..; the kigl t ;et :re pr ye ice to ke t; ox e proper more fri en dl yti T. • , ems es. ;:i it odo i it .' e tdlY to tight kite ht. tied , e t er e , . te. and I r I `. lc, T. e ;•-• ••• . . '. • '\4. laa t for S.A. • et nx:e a ieetceytee. in. J.E•4 1.11:s! )1 the Dr, b'ec:imi ati:g net , Art ot tte fs.rtre. tiiieraltt 1 his was Mt ON, as tae the c;rie liable I thee. refoel ilatame67l6 '. '' ent P 7 lice gasettareai t E ithe : er l . suns" onvenseasr ause slual ew arra• clause. k 'lute of E. could a:TA irr.protlies iIU cleriset• for the e prect was too (tr- y we" left Alamo Earl ; but where tainieg the that felcky gl ed to s. tars allot:. itnagiee =v ntentiols of err most z. lation he laL 121C2S11't - serve cr• he sycrs e cut ko, tint up mew not I ow were mcgli: deer.Lit7r? trftre, G. t • • orr•lt , and r4 -1- •' Ergli-td L. .` rt. • , •.:.et h e he rant'.' - :0 ee- d At i on . rice" Ling ' Lira r e. tu the LILI'r , 141 • •.• rare sham , Dill vv....! lel I ix:— sigma. s'