Star. — London, England, 1802-06-10 00:00:00

J.! (4 . • t. ! i x.: C.+ ANC L Ltot of the I:7.o.rozrca fai.i, that Y.i.nd who had jut' fat down, by the :lc hail made on the Ipech or his Right t it:ad stir, precede) hina, had feern-_,l in• to contiLr the prActit propolitiin bete re • C,)ro),i4tee as a Islealure for the Permanent I:,.ahliihrient of this Country, although his ,hr Friend, the Se; - retary at War, Laden. :o hooters up,o, the Commiztec a very J . :ten:tit and had, for that purrote, Stated his • of fire difference between this Propolision, ; .-1.1 the probable permaneut Peace Edabliflnnent of ~ Hib Hon. Ft iend had commented on• large allowance of 40,cc0 men for the defence, o. Great lkitain.—New, if the Committee would er to the Speech of his Right Hon. Friend, the t-,e7retary at War, they would perceive that this •, :s not propofed to he voted for tfie fervice of ;reat al , ne, for the prefent year, but for • it l'o-itain and Ireland, it being impofrible, a: •:t . eat, to dzlctibe the fin:eine amount of force to • e allotted to each, or to propofc to vote the force -a any other manner : the truth was, that this was t the probable force to be kept up as our peace ct.thlithrm:nt; but the number could not be now I•soitolit to that reduced lime, for a great part of cur turee, of our military forte as well as naval, was now abroad, much of our army was now at lea ; lo that, until their return home, we could not be laid to he in a condition to determine upon the quantum of our peace ellablifliment.—, 'l . l!at might prove to be lets than many Gentle., men mig;it ftypofe, and leis than hr was willing t.: ti.oc, for this was not, for the reafon he had (hu e d, the feafon for him to deliver his • opt.:. thatfobjeft ; he therefore wifhed it he toiderliood, that he did not Alert, by voting r the proprfition now before the Corniritt:e, men was a force aZtually nceeifary to c-:.!toote the real defence of this Country; all that ' • c,•,,yeyed.by the present propofition was this, lic.we.en this and the period at whiehthe Vote • tc.rminstte, there would be no proper oppor :..!,y, in the opinian of his Majeay's Govern of reducing that number continently with the: due. care of the interests of the empire. Hie slight Hon. Friend the Secretary W had (aid, wider the prefent cireumlbtaces, a timaller ao..ee than z5,c00 men would be infadificient for treland ; and, upon that part of the fubjeq t. he I:ndertiood his Hon. Friend who (poke 14 to 'ave no objaticn ; he thought there could not be a::y : • he cio, indeed, peeve that eircumllaracm Art)u:d operate rapidly to enable us to reduce, eon-. fiderably, all our prefent propofed enabligunears, hot althoughz they might be rapid in heir eifek yet noli..,cly could expeet their conuannconaent to be toamediate. i.a to the number propofed for the i,:antationc, was 25,040 raeu,hs did not Ms c.rve that his Ilon. Ft lead objetted at all. AM to be obferved, that it was not for the plantations merely, or for the eulogies * that * zi - ,cso men v ere propofed to be voted, nor was that numb-r merely for Ireland either; but it was to be reculleas:3, in confidcring this matter, that we had kveral porieffions to take care of svhich did not lo..rng to us formerly, as well as. tltat we had giv.at up many which we po&Jed by m.s.co; of the late war. We had now to take co::: of Ts 11:41.1(.1 la OK Weil, and Ceylon in the 1 Vie were: to take cast of Gibraltar, and to protea and kcure oar pollefAnns in .NLith An erica; under all thzfe circumflances, • a.as 11. c duty of Min:Liars to provide filth as wc , ald give this country a • ::!: ;of iectuity. If there was ac t: .;fly a torte of '4),000 rnei in the Country, he sli.l not know, that under .the prefent f;:c:i 4 force w.oulal be demanded the ficuiiiy. Tii,:re was no man who sot:. .',cl more importance than be did-to the c:iolderation of the nicatis of our *corky, nb man who reiiea :note eat the valour Of our fleets ::no at toles ; hat he was alto imprelfed with this : that brave as our forces might be, r) cc:Ott:n:tie as the Shill might be by • h N•. 1•2 diteCted, 'till - we. mutt always t, the zeal and Inchour of the people to give 1.. vigour t 0.4 ousyndertaktog. ; and this had b,ce /UDR coni.picoous in this country - opal threatetted with danger,nod had been t.. cf ail Signal. in the propels of the late war. co:dit of this country 'wea.altii great; its re f • ra:l—butwith all there mighty advantages, f they were, withal', the Advantarsof the zeal, • ct,:ur, and puOlic fpirit oldie people, the bravery ci i:s troops, the of tbetr .Cconsanders ! the' credit and refouices of the country, and all the points which contlituted its chareaer, we could not cseufed if we did net provide eflential thef-, for the continuance Rik' fafety. A to the probability of one bait% again foots • in war, he certainly had no idea of any fuch t!:;n7 ; but ficore as he conceived us tube in this Should not (offer that idea to lull him a talk fecnrky, for that would be wade than a s.,ite alana of • danger : the courts which he: to purlise was a middle eourfe, which het smithd prevent jealolify on the one hand.: i:lstat:on by weaknefs, to hollility on the' ogler. He then proceeded to take notice of. the ri" re rice which the prefent propored EOM would make from that of the War Frilebla. the faviags upon which, fiappoling no' .11rnzt rcduaiotis to take place between abis and . , .11mas nest, would be (ev e n millions, three' of which would be in the amount of the Etlablifament.. Now, ha obferved, -that nom the manner in which- his Honourable Friend" 1 . • filol:e haft, had taken up the fohjeds he knew how to argue it, (trice his ilonotir." ~e took the vote now propofed, as.the• , :ra.:neht fy than of enahlifinnent, or I . o7lething . i;.:t lyilern tha• was likely • to be counte hy GOvcramcnt, by way of the -future ! - :::ce Eloiblifnment of this Country ; and tik ,l.:; itf;%,hits Iluuout able Friend had faid it eras too la:ge ro e too final' in another too Lag e fra 1:11em of economy, and ton (mall for a :la;urity'; and he had Stated it therefore to i, e ufd.l fyflems the moft exceptionable; and to if his Hon. Friend was right in view t.: it as tr.() large for one pinhole, and too (mall lot alr.d.er; beta ha .appreLended it 49 be neither, lint that it .was a fy(Lem w'oicli our fecurity re quired, and which was not ta:o far removed lion) (clot:only under the prefent :ircumllances. I s is Hon. Friend h.td taken a view of the peace efla blifittnent of 1791, and lie had given the Commit• tee to underdand, that thefy Ilene of 17)1 svas elat to which he inclined: that was indeed a felieni which was not liable to the double objeCtion of be ing trio large in onecafe,and too (mall in another— too large fareeconomy e and too fmall for fecurity. It certainly was not to, (mall for the ceconomy Of which his Hon. Friend fpoka ; ! lair, as t() fecurity, it was miferably defeEtive he t`oought, Therefore, that the our eltabliihment fm the coaling year, (but which from &cum aances the Committee mull fee he wooldnot define) cald not lat'formed upon the model of. the plablithment of i79t. We ought,mofl unquellionably,to have a much larger elablifliment than that 'of the year 1791 ; and be would a& the Conitnittee,whether they had or had ! not made up their mindatof)llow the precedent of our Military Ellublilitment of 1791 and 1793 He would afk every Member of the Committee, whe ther, upon looking back at all the cireurnliances of our Military Syftem in the years 1791 and t 792, he was not convinced that it was a fyftem which, to fay the leall of it, was miferably deficient ? Whether, on the very inliant of the breaking out of the war, there was not among us a general - con fcionfnefse that our Military Eftablithment war much below the point at which it would be pru dent to keep it in future? He really thought fuch confcioufnefs was general, and that the evils e fulling from it, were admitted ; for it was not until the war had continued for fcveral years,that I we had an army capable of offenfive operations, ' and it was not until within a certain, and not a very remote period of the termination of lioailities, our Army was in the degree of force which it ought to be for the purpofe of maintaining the contelt in which we Lad been engaged.—Now, if Gentiernen . j would make up their minds to incur a great d a n-1 ger for the fake of faring fome expence, he would!! only fay, that although that was the fentimeit of his Hon. Friend who fpoke tall, yet if is wa:e .he general fentiment in thatCornmittae, he fhould it ev e to look forward with much more unealy apps eh tn lions of our fafcty, than he felt at pref.:lit. Ile felt the neeelfity of mconomy ; but in a large view of csoonomy isfelf, he apprehended it to be proper to provide for our fecurity, although the certain et:- pence of fo doing ,be eonfiderable ; bccaufe, in his view of the thing, there was no 4:economy where there was no fecurity. Hi knew his Hon. Fri Ind fpoke on this occallom as he jid on all others, after much thought ; that his epinions were always the refult of reflection ; his fentiments were always Readily formed and candidly avowed, not only in that Houfe, bra ail . ° out of it. lie had the happinefs of communicating with his Hon. Friend upon many public topics out of that Houfe, previous to the time of difeufilon within. I-le had done fo upon the topic now before the Committee ; his Hon. Friend had been fo kind as to put him in polfeffion of his fentiments on this ful/jed; he knew the points he had brought for 'ward toofisht, wete points on which his Hon. Ftiend's s d was made up, and therefore he had Rated them to the Committee; he applaud ed the condo,,-, and refpated the fincerity of his Honourable Friend—but he Rootlet feel con ildetable alarm for the fituation of this Country, if the opinion of his Hon. Friend on there topics (leash! become the prevailing opinion of that Houle. Lie was not dilpoled to attach •mticli weight to nay ohfervations, however refpdlable the (pi itter might be from whence they came,and none could he more fo than thatof his Hon. Friend; but, he could not attach much weisht to obierva lions which were made from the view of only one fide of any ft:4;dt : we could not think on the great inereafe of our expenditure, without feeling alfo that our Income had likewile increaled. Here we law indeed an inei cafe front 14 to 23 millions. If there was fuch an increafe in the anti:el amount of our Charges,arifing irom the unavoidable increafe of our Debt, he did not conceive that this confi elermion deferved the denomination' of a gloomy profpeet, (ince there were on the other fide pro ipcats of a comfortable kind; for if our Debt had heen augmented, our Imports had inereafed, our Elepoi ts - had increafed, our Clipping hail incre:tfed, ..ur Menu l'ae9 ores had inc, eared, and all the fourcei of our wealth and power as a Nation had im proved; and this in a manner, that was much more than equal to the increafe of our hurthens.— He was not, to he underlloud by this to contend, that the preffure of the War was not great: on die contrary, be admitted that 'preffure to be great ; but what be contended was, that the power of the Country was greater than the preffure, upon it, arld that its means torupport itfelf.are (till ample, notwithltanding the piefforc it has borne. He did not mean to under-rate the preffure of the bur thens upon this Country it any time, but he did use 4e any melon why. that part of the fubjed ihould be.epnfidered, without con fi dering ifo the wealth' or the Country. Without deliring the , Committee to indulge any fentiment cf &fruit at the prefebt pollute of affairs, 'but merely for the pairs* of inculcating a doarine of necef- AVOW, he wound deGre the Committee to i gt the Jtrefent Ccographical relation which . res fi g,ountry bears to other Countries on the dif tpares of the Globe. -He contended it was in to so look at the Map of Europe without tee ing that a fentiment of caution and acertain de• e ofpre,per?tion was impcifed upon that Houfe. Diellap.eqaceive that there was any dirpofition in- Jicative of danger manifelled any where? Or, that le could fay tFiatalleaCe Ihould not be dbferved, and iwadvuntsges ettltivated in the true spirit of mace f Igo fuch thing--lie raw no loch indication the wilbed to infptre no dillrult again!' the coin". alliance of Peace—but le looked at the world :as it was-e-at smankind as they were; and he .was not ilinguine enough to think that the world was grown do much better, or ibitt the temper of mankind was fo mods imProfed; as to think caution was ab folutelyfnperfluous—as to think that no advantage would ever be attempted Lobe taken'of us,or that we Should continue to be perfealy recur.: ' although We should have reduced ourfelves to a R ate of ab relute weakuefs. To a - lift of weakucfs, he was ' • - . l of cr,' ' 7,-lon we Ihould be reduced , if we adopted the f:actn of this Country - in the year 1791, for whi,.ll reafon he could not aifent to it.—, His lini,o::rable.Friend had laid, that a greater ,:egvee of publicity attended the proceedings of; this country in State matters than that of ..other in this world, and that this publicity had .its advantages and its ditltdvautages. This flaw rnent was perfealy correct as far as it went.— That the publicity of the proceedings of a Stec was attended with fome difadvantages was erne, and they were infeptrable from the condi tion of a Free State; but that the advantages on thz whole cafe, greatly overbalanced the-difad vantages of fuch publicity, was abfolutely mani felt to him ; fo much to, that he did not think it a que!lion to be at all difenifed in the prefent enlightened hate of human fociety. But he could not help laying, 'that whatever evils might be flippefed to attend the publicity or the knoments of public men on public affairs, fuch fentiments, • in his opinion, ought to be made public, that the world might, judge of them. He never did, and he hoped he never fhould, ufe any violent or intemperate language towards other Powers, but he ihould always ufe explicit language in convey ing what he meant as necetrary mcafures for the well-being or fafety of this country. How irrita tion could be the refult of that courfe he could not conceive, but if it was to be to, he fhould not be deterred from doing his duty. from any fuch, or indeed any other confideration.—Having Paid this, he lin - add-add, that in his opinion it was not pot*. ffible to provide for the fecurity of the country, nor indeed to be in that Rate of Military Force, whii.ll all the Committee (except his Honoura ble Friend) teemed to with, between this time and • the end of the year, without voting that which was now propofed. He earneftly hoped the leer sod was not remote, when a large redo Rion timid take place in our Peace EtlablOhment ; but we thould at all events guard againfl the pnflibility of being placed in the fame fituation we were in at the period of 1791. Upon the whole, he was inclined to hope that the Houk and the country would not think that Government had (hewn any improvident regard to what was due to the Court , try, by bringing forward the propofition which , was now bef o re the Committee. The amount of I the Naval and of the Military .Force to be kept up in this Country mutt, in future, be judged of by circumtlances ; opinion was, that they might be fafely reduced to a very confiderable ex. tent ;,but he begged to be underftood as not to pledge himfelf to any fpecific Effabliffiment, ei ther as to Navy or Army. He fhould with to proceed in Inch manner as to provide for our tafety in all cafes, without any unnecefrary ex pence. He was of opinion that the meafure - now propofed was not mare than. was neceiTary, under the prefent circumffances, to provide for our fafe ty according to the principle which, he apprehend ed, was the true guide of our conduit: Mr. Jowls thought the burdens intlipportable, but taw the neceffity of prefenting an ifon front to the adamantine Republic. He thought the Houfe too thin to decide on fuch an important fobjell. Mr. VAN SITTART rote to corral fome Date ments made by Mr. Bankes. He Paid the Hon. Gentleman had ftatld the exeefs of the revenue, above the intereft of the debt in 1791 to amount to 6,700,0001. and that in the prefent year only to 5,500,0001. In oblerving upon this. he fbnuld take the accounts made up to the Sth April lag, inticad of thole made up to January, as in the hit ter there were many things which arofe from cir .cumtlances not at all to be expelled during peace. By the accounts made up to April lag, the net revenue Amounted to z 2,90915,0001. In this Cum the Cultoms were not included, nor a deduftion of 2,000,0001. for corn bounties. The ftoppage of the dillillcries had alfo in the preceding period taken away a large cum; but of this be thould make no cilimate at prefent. There was omitted alfo in the accounts, the turn of 300,0001. of the revenues of tilot. In addition to this, the taxes laid on this year would, at the mat moderate computation, amount to 4,000,0001. and the land tax to 2,600,0001. making in all neatly 31 millions and a half. The intereft and expences of the debt amounted to 21,600,0001. from which it would appeal that the clear fond to cover our expenditure was 9,600,0001. inftead of 6,700,0001. the boafted ovcrplus of 1791. Mr. BAN sea laid, that from the papers laid up on the table he fhould attempt to jollity himfelf from the charge of inaccuracy. The Accounts which lay on the table only came up to January, it was therefore impoffible in reafoning from them to take any notice of the Loan, or the new Taxes, which did not then exiff. He contended, that all the particulars he had formerly Rated were cor ral ; that the balance of the free Revenue was greater in 179 t, and that we had a double expense on a Ms Revenue: he thould defer any further obfervations until a future day. - The Refolution was then put and carried. The SICaSTALY AT WAR then moved the fol• lowing rums : Pay, Ste. of Army for Great Britain £.7 7 0 ,39 1 Ditto for Ireland 439 000 Ditto Plantations ' 31.452 . Cau.lry - • -1 7,9 1 9 • Recruiting • . 130,000 Milt Cavalry, Ware&coats. ice. - 474,f00 grafToificers in Great 13ritain .• - 13.868 Ditto in Ireland - • 13,868 Conim,Moned Olken in Ireland ~ -, • ' 7,984 Supernumerary Ofikers in Great Britain - 27,754 Ditto in inland - . 1,200 uartarmafters, Agenes,Contrelleis t irm tic. - 10 . 8 55 Ditto in [rand - -• 5494 Allo*ance for Saul! Bea - . reoboo Ditto for Ireland - . floats Hall-pgy in Greats Britain - • 15P.35 Ditto for Irelnid .. - 6,ats Miriam Sm. Half pay in Mast Bride - 144400 Ditto Ireland . 26,i6z 14J1fpy to reduced Officers - - ' 45,2 0 5 Scv.-t al Ofilecra, formerly Mae Simko stubs Sites Grocral ' • 753 Chellea Hafpltal - a' • • Z 164 I 1 Kiimainharn Hapital - • 27,953 • Volunteer Corps In Great Britain - 7 2 ,000 Dino in Ireland . - 68,000 Pamcks In Great Britian - . 297,98 s Ditto Ireland Foreign Corps • • • 321,300 Mr. Rossoe (aid e be temeinherefr the tine when there was a f-elt ;:t Cc.un , / about the maintait.; , vg!",lll . :m ig.lTrcors in .I.lri , iCa pay; he thought it Kranr that p•rf,vi: , ! , . (I v he made ibr thal: Corp,. p p to (1 11 : t l ii " particularly as it vase thy were in o ovneral to he d'll..antd. SiCitETARY RC 1 7 1''AR Cr!-p; itt nueaion had been embolliLl con , , •1 Aas of Parliammt Co:- that pi:rp , /c.:1:11 oi2 for maintenance Wer.• ::nnuary v , te..i by P.a. 'lament. The Hon. Getylento was ;:ic.area is fuppoling that they sver.• to be kept op till Ch;iLk. nra s ; come Were to be di ihand:.-I in t!le cwaf.: of this month, fume kkc B , and sy:10 wcre on fervice, in .No:ember. The L;;"( Lition was agreed to. The SECRITARY at WAR moved that the fur: of 63691. be granted for .he Military C.11c•,: . -!. Mr. Roasoa obj:azd to part of thc given in upon this fuhjet :he of jc(led thc ap pointment of a Sccro!tary, PaymAier, Trea furer, particularly the bezel, becanfe 1:c laid a Treafurer could not be necedary f?r ftnall a fum as 60001. Tae Sficarraar•at fait], that :I , :hnugla the film granted by Governnvme W 11.; 10 Crl:Cl. from the executive toncems ;• , f this .!;;:it..&;:r:, loch Officers were neecifary. The V.;lLniv!, wAs agreed to. The SECRETARY at Wait move t, thle the Cum of 13,0001. be granted for the Roy.ll ••Miiitary Afylum at Chelfea. Ross.opt fiid, the building fw Tudi;.4 tion ought to hav,: , been erteled upon grtpi; • belonging to Cl,tlka llolpit .11. After a few words frolti G e neral Pt LANc the Refolution was agreed ro. • The SECRETARY at WAR 1710Y....(1, Olt !!!: of 16,1911. be granted fer medicines, . hofpital contingencies, Cs':e. in Ireland.-- ov.roft!WE. Mr. SARGENT moved, Itat the fUM .I )f 272,:- •.• • be granted for the ler-vice of the Ordnanet;.-- - Ageed to. For the Ordnance of Ireland not providid for - 1..17,0M For the Ordnance fcrvice not provided for'in t Cot lc:JA I ) IRISH SCP4I.II.S. Mr. CORRY moved that the fora of 372,701. be granted for the payment of Trea!'aii Bias due within the year 1802. For Printing and binding the jonenzls of the Irint Par liament 2314 For printing and binding ese len Statutes - 69,t For Pcrfons employed in making indexci, t•tc. to ditto 1 5 8 4 For certain Oilleers ensploy:d in main ; up Ac counts • 22 43 Thefe feveral Refolutions were agreel to, and the Report was ordered to be receivini to-morrow. CHANCELLOR OF IRELAND. • The Houfc having refolred izfelf into a Com mittee to confider of the falary of the Lord Chan cellor of Ireland. Mr. CORRY raid, as this was a fubjea on w'aich there could be no difference of opinion, either wi:h regard to the importance of the Office rn- the *merit of the perfon who filled it, he would not take up the time of the Houle any further th to by Ratiag, that in confequence of the Union :-.11 the fees derived by the Chancellor of Ireland had ceafed. A.. compenfation had ben wade to the late Lorl Clare for this lot's, but it was made only for his life. It was therefore neceira, y to reftoie it again; as every pet fun mutt feel that an office of fuch dignity and importance, and filled by a man of inch learning, talents and integrity as Lord Redefdale, Oug'at to be fufilciently remune• rated. He should therefore move, that after a return was made to the Houfe of the faiary and fees of the Lord ChancAlor of Ireland, a fum thould be prefented in ad IitIOA to it, to as to make the whole annual falai y amount to ro.ocol. Mr. W. B. Poissoasv thertly cep, aired his opi nion, that the propoftd fum was not too much for the purpole, beciolfe iniormer year., the emolu ment. of Chancellor ia Ireland were known to ex ceed that; but he hoped it would not be made a precedent for granting similar increafes, on Qcca lions where fuch may not be necelfary, and to per. fons lets cleaving than the °Ned of the prefent motion. Mr. LVIGII4 obferved, that the propoied increare was by no means more than adequate to its ob jeas, and that no meafute whatever could canto more pleafure in Ireland, than that now pro pored—he felt it unn:cellary to expatiate on the rank and dignity of the Office, or the neceflity of its being filled by st perfon of talents and ability— and be hetirtily thanked his Right Hon. Friend, for bringing it forwards. Mr. Roason raid that ro,oool. rag a very largo fum, and therefore he would oppofe the Refolu tion. Gentlemen on the Treafury Bench might laugh and think lightly.of it ; perhaps they ex peaed to get good places of the fame kind for themfelves, hut the people, who were heavily tax. ed, did not think fo. :». The CHANCELLOR of the Excncoy tit could not help obfer.ving, that the Hon. Gentleman appear ed to be a little i4fellted.with.v.hofe feelings of am- . bition which he imputed to others. He then de fended the Refautitio ; and contended that the fum to be granted' was no more than a' rerntmer ation of the molt aconornical kind to A Noblest:V.ln of the higheil charafter for talents arulaffidtrity; and from whom the property of Ireland•was.like- • . ly to derive fuch great recurity. !• Mr. JONES laid, he Would not advire Friend to let ambition tire his mind upon: the pre. fent occafion, but, to a certai n degree,..bettna- - • - fidered the propofition in the tame point 4:1 view . with Min. He v:ohld atle, if th e Chancellncpf the Exchequer, who was perhaps the firtl . ptiblic (Al t cer in Europe, had half fuch a lliperi4rt6'ihie prefent. Chancellor of eland he could agree, boosafule; to give the fum ; but in the precut litua, tion of this country, he requctlO.dte ItighiHon. Gentleman to panic, and he urged the later;efs - cf the hour, and idthin a lionfe, as objeCtioni tr de ciding upon the point : however, '-if it were - iftti. !Irately voted, he Ihould, be the Minifier wlfrsta - he may, pripofe that he should have a larger fa lary than he now enjoys. . Lord CASTIALEAOtt fpnke ably in Support of •• the motion. If the contpenation was not ct,nti nued, the Lord Chisscallor o Ifeblid watild 'net