Star. — London, England, 1819-01-26 00:00:00

hat lie suffer justly for s his crim which; should t to the other subject of the Ho- Gentleman complained: Whether the law transports a man be proper or not, was not iestion: it related only to the manner in which tenet was carried into execution. He must be to doubt the correctness of the Honourable information on this part of the subject. the greater part of his complaints seemed to , t r ansportation.—(" No, no!" from In order to obtain correct information on s ubject, the Noble Lord had sent down the per no was entrusted with the superintendence of balks, and who deserved the high character he possessed. This person had reported, that impossible the situation represented by Dr. toran could ever have occurred. The object O'Halloran and of the Honourable Gentleman ' to be, to present that man front undergoing ice of the law. He had stated that hisl wat bad ; but it appeared that this was not r ase—(flear, hear.) He stated this from the -;ty of a respectable person, who had an oppor-i ..,. of knowing the fact. The Master of the ves lie knew, had been instructed to tt eat him with -ible lenity and attention. The ship was fitted as vs-cll as ships of that- description ever are— hem.) As to the comparison drawn by the Gentleman between transport ships and slave he could only say, that there was no . ground tie comparison. That restraints and privations assary, every one knew ; but to compare the ,nmodation and discipline adopted in ships em vl to transport convicts to those of slave ships, ; rid:culotts. The question was a simple one, as limed it, namely—Whether Dr. O'Halloran was cbject to be recommended to the Royal mercy?, a question he would not rest on the humanity of N(ble Friend, for that was a practice which, not 'standing the assertion of the Honourable Gentle , had never been resorted to in that House; but would rest it on the merits of the case. Mr. SINCLAIR said, that the state of the convict had not been denied. He said it should be ressed on the consideration of the House, that convict sent from this country to Botany Bay die country at least eighty pounds: After the jut: treatment of the unhappy convicts, &seri by 'the Honourable Gentleman, which had not denied, he thought it was the bounden duty of House to take up the subject, and to abolish so ling and so disgraceful a practice. The Hon. Mr. CLIVE did not doubt the tweet of the statements which the Honourable Gentle had made from his own actual observation, and was ready to admit that he had taken the measure • apartments accurately enough. He could as e House, however, that great care bad • . . by the Navy Board to provide for the lafet d comfort of the unfortunate convicts. Of one which sailed from this country last year with convicts, only two persons were sick during the voyage; :old in another instance, only three of 1i1) had been sick. lie believed that the ave• number of deaths did not exceed sir out of 100. Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH obserred, that the Important fact stated by his Hon. Friend had been answered. The Right Hon. Gentleman the Hon. Cullman of the Navy • Board had !sad it khotr. reruatk. The state of prisons at me, which should have been made the subje ct of shy long ago, iernained still unnoticed. The ne r of alternig and amending the regulations at proem prevailed in our prisons appeared a WO:14 recently published—a Work which, equal elf.quence and fidelity, presented a dread picare of misery. But while attention was paid oar prisons at home, why should not the State -ships be inquired into The statement of the . Honourable Gentleman respecting the punish st of Dr. O'Halloran was not different from that Lis Honourable Friend. The latter had said that O'Halloran had been punished for his character, for his crime, and this was not denied by the • Hon. Gentleman. He had lately heard with that the present system of punishment was be made the subject of inquiry by his Majesty's • If he could credit information which he received before he came to the House, he must that Ministers intended to investigate the Pe- Laws, and at the same time inquire into the state ; but he was sorry to learn, from the pro which had taken place this evening, before to the House, that this order was to be in and that the revision of the Penal Code was to Uhred as subordinate to the state of Prisons. Id nsa avoid expressing his regret at this cit :e, as it indicated the reluctance of Ministers any radical alteration in our sanguinary laws. Mr. LAWSON said, that an Honourable Member alluded to the enormous expenses which Magi . bestowed on land-jails, while no attention was to sea jails ; but there was a wide difference be- Ithe two. In the one, the innocent as well as lilts , were confined in the other, none were who had not been found guilty and con- Another parallel had been attempted between and black slaves ; but our sympathy for the was excitid, not by the punishment, but by the - and undeserved suffering of the slave.— the criminal code should be altered, were they d t e death transportation, transportation some less? This were to offer a premium for crime. •gient by land was a great inconvenience— much greater must it be by sea ? But if the of salt water were really injurious, why did Persoas of the greatest affluence travel far, wan much inconvenience, to watering-places ? did Lords of lofty mansions lodge for months It cabins, in order to enjoy those waters ?—(A !evi, ruppreseed by manifest disapprooation.) not been guilty of any crime —(s laugh). Ij mean when I say so, to say any thing that . militate against original sin !—(a laugh). I , however, been guilty of no crime ; and yet in ~,iag over to Calais I have suffered distresses as glisiihg as those mentioned by the Honourable -liti .. atan—(. l :ales). As to the question of cha 'l, he recollected that Judge Buller tio.al to say, Perms of good character deserved the rather to Laged, because they had the greatvr reason not to feu their character. If ;fudge; and Quarter Ses .had n o p ower to ta k e c h aracter i nto considera un appoitioning the degree of punishment, why tuey it inCaen-a discretion to punish from one i . at I CCasizcnient to transportation fur life ? When was not true. a person of good character happened Cntortniteii to be guilty of one of those crimes of which he (Mr. Lawson) had professed himself innocent, it were hard if no place could he left to him for repentance with out undergoing the punishment of the hardened in crime. Were convicts to he treated during the voy age by sea, as he had himself seen them treated when removed from one jail to another, they would feel themselves far happier than paupers at home.— Ile had heard of their saying, " While others travel with much expense to themselves, we are to make a tour at the cxpense of the King." As to the charge against the Noble Secretary, he believed from the refutation of former charges, that the present charge Mr. BUXTON said, he could not censure with sufficient severity the indiscriminate levity with which the last speaker had treated this subject. From the statement of his Honourable Friend, he believed that the facts as stated were true: if they were, could it be pretended that they did not call for inquiry ? ( Hear, hear.)—lf they were not true, the reason be came more forcible why Gentlemen opposite should concur with the House in a most grave and serious inquiry. Mr. LAWSON, in explanation, stated his object to have been to shew, that passengers were exposed to the same miseries on their passage from Dover to Calais, as the convicts were on their voyage from Portsmouth to Botany Bay. Mr. HARVEY said, that he felt that the time of the House would nit admit of his offering the apo logy which he owed for making any observations to the House. He thought the sophisms of an Hon. Gentleman opposite were much misapplied. He had urged as a reason why sea-prisoners should be less attended to than land-prisoners, that of the former all were found guilty, while of the latter many were innocent : but the crimes of convicts were exceed ingly various, and some of them were accordingly transported for a few years, some for life. Upon the Hon. Gentleman's own principle, therefore, there ought to be a variety of accommodations suited to the variety of criminality—(llear,hcar.)—He thought it proper to make these remarks on a speech which was conaezted with a strain of jocularity which he trusted woald counteract its effect. Mr. F. ROBINSON admitted the gravity and im portance of the subject, but he thought it was brought before the House ui a manner extremely inconveni ent and extremely unlikely to lead to any useful effect. The subject of transportation was deserving of attention, and four or five years ago it had been brought before the House and examined before a Committee. lie did not see why this subject should not, if the Committee to be moved for by his Noble rriend should be appointed, come before that Com mittee as a matter of course. He therefore ob jected to the manner in which the subject was intro duced, as neither the most convenient, nbr the most commodious. Mr. BENNET begged to be a ll owed to explain. I He had never entered into the question of transpor tation ; be had merely alluded—whatever feelings the allusion might. have excited—he had only alluded to the way in which the convicts were crowded, for the purpose of transportation. He had heard, some years ago, of the state of convicts in the hulks ; he had visited a ship for female convicts, they were not so crowded ; but ships were now loaded with con victs in much the same manner as in former years. He did not stand up for the character of Dr. O'Hal loran, yet he would again say, that he, and others confined with him, were treated with the most inhu man barbarity. This he repeated, notwithstanding the sneers which persons on the other side threw out against him, notwithstanding the sneers of a Govern ment who never lent assistance to mend bad systems, or to purge abuses (Hear, bear); who, on the con trary, exerted all their power and influence, to retard and frustrate every attempt to apply a remedy,(Loud cheers,) and who, he believed on his conscience, had resolved to take up the subject of prison discipline for the special purpose of defeating the object of his Honourable Friend. (Great and continued cheering) He had said so much, rather beyond the question, as he mild not receive a blow without feeling resent ment. The fact which he was anxious to impress upon the House was, that nearly 300 convicts were cooped in cribs, each having the space of six feet long, and one toot one inch wide. Far be it from him to enter into discussion with one who thought such a fact a fit subject I'M-joke—(Hear, hear); who held that a voyage, in such a condition, for six months, was to be compared to a trip to Calais. Not withstanding that they were guilty, he could not help feeling for those miserable wretches,Hilear, hear.) They were capable of feeling pains, as well as the Honourable Members of that /louse.—(Cheers. The Right Hon. Gentleman, among all his observations, h id not at ail spoken of the moral abominations and turpitude in those convict-ships. Mr. B. BATHURST explained. The Honourable Gentleman had said, that Ministers had taken no measures to improve the prison-discipline, yet he had given credit to Mr. Capper for the best management of the hulks. To Mr. Capper that department had been intrusted by the Noble Secretary. When the Agent was therefore entitled to credit, was there no credit due to the head of the Department? Had the Agent been guilty of neglect, would not the Noble Secretary have received all the blame? Mr. BROUGHAM asked if the fact really were so, that each convict had only one foot one inch in width to lie on ? This question being repeated, Mr. B. BATHURST, said, he should be happy to answer the Honourable Gentleman if he could; but the Honourable Gentleman saw how the question came forward upon a Petition from Dr. O'Halloran, and that he had therefore no means of knowing. Mr. BROUGHAM asked, whether there was any thing peculiar in the state of this ship? Mr. B. BATHURST said, he had no reason to think otherwise. Mr. F. DOUGLAS said, it had been stated by an Honourable Member, that . the space allotted to the individual was 3 s feet by 6o feet. That statement is not denied ; but the Right Honourable Gentleman has apologised for the manner in which he has been obliged to answer. This shewed exactly t h e state of the Home Department, where iufornnation cannot be procured even concerning the dreadful facts which have so deeply affected the House. Honourable tes timon), he said, had been borne to the character of Mr. Capper—he was far from wishiarto detrectirem it ; but it appears that he was sent drew e in' Aka No hie Secretary to inquire into the state of the ships. I Now, either he did report or he did not—if he did, why is not the necessary information afforded to Par liament P If he has not, he has failed in the per formance of his duty. " But this (said Mr. Douglas) I am not to suppose from the character of the man. Then he did report ; and we are to take it for granted because it has not, it cannot be denied, that three hundred human beings were penned up in the cabin of this transport, and that to every six of them was allotted a space of five feet and a h:tlf by six feet and a half !"—(1-fear, hear) Sir ISAAC COFFIN reprobated the situation of the vessel as most scandalous. He said that a man of ordinary feeling would be ashamed to have his swine treated as these unhappy convicts have been. Ile hoped, he said, that Government would imme diately see the matter corrected; if the ship should sail, he would not be surprised to hear that not a singl h man of them reached the Cape of Good Hope alive. Mr. BERNAL rose to ask whether the ship in question had yet sailed, or whether she remained at anchor in the Downs, or was on any other part of the English coast? For he conceived this to be a most important subject. It was one on which he trusted that the Members of the House would never sleep until (if it were not too late) they took such proceed ings as would be most likely to procure the deten tion of the vessel--(Hear, heer.)—This was no:party question. Common humanity required sonic inter ference, and he trusted every Member of the house (if it should appear that the vessel had not yet sailed), would pause, and not only pause, but act in such manner as the urgency of the case required. Mr. CLIVE said, that he believed the ship had sailed. From the latest accounts received by him, he was convinced that she must by this time have pro ceeded some way upon her voyage. 'As to what had been said of the treatment of convicts, he had only this to say, that this ship was fitted out and conducted in the same manner as every preceding ship—(hcar). The Petition was then read. It set forth in sub stance, that the Petitioner, Lawrence O'Halloran, Doctor in Divinity, had, for a great number of years, served his country essentially--but that, in the decline of life, he had been found guilty of defrauding the Post-office of ten-pence, and sentenced to seven years transportation : That he was put put on board the hulks, amongst the most abandoned characters : That he discovered two of those depraved wretches com mitting an abominable offence—in consequence of which he wrote to Lord Sidmouth and Mr. Capper. Nothing, however, was done to bring those criminals to justice, but, on the contrary, he was reproached by the master of the convict ship for having made the discovery. He therefore prayed, that their Ho nourable House would take the hardships of his case into their candid consideration, and act upon his Pe tition in such manner as may appear most expedient to relieve him from his dreadful situation. Mr. BENNET then rose and gave notice, that he intended very soon to bring before the House a Mo tion which would involve the discussion of the whole subject of transportation. On account of the several important notices which had already been given for early days, he could not now fix the precise time at which he would bring forward that which he had mentioned.—The Petition was ordered to be printed. .3 that lie advert gable Ge . •hich transp h e q uestion: s entence , 1 / 4 ,„• e d to , d %alernan s red, the Oast tr rt-) Ir su bject, who was • hulks, a ,' he pos ps impo itloran ~ to be f entence a 1 wa§ b. rite—(l -ority of c of knc be knew , : ussiblc 1 , "as well liar. hear.) lientlel he CO3 the comp nccessa -rommodat / lecNl to tra rimed it, object ti questiot tik,ble Fr carding had ne would rel Mr. SINC sei had i • resscd o y comic the Coll .1(11r4 tre • by 'the 1 denied, House tx , king an , Te Hon. -3 of the , had mi was read . the apart the Ho • en by tiv 3 condor ip which t convict Lie voya en of 130 rare flambe Sir .IAI amt tmpol been 3 all the H .L.sti it st whi airy lon mty of viich at om a IA th equal picurc t our pris , hisan .ship Lght Hon teat of D, t his Hon , O'Hal] • for his light Hon .leamre tti mad( kicatters. kid receiv, ktieve tha ml Laws, SiPrisons amen /met', ,inc He could worance admit al lir. LA • allude aces bes ' to sea the a guilty , aed tel An I'te and to was cnce 'Qr. the . mike d less 41 intilll 'W MUT to ' Is of ""Y per "itch al ' II Y did ), S mall c 4 , 44 al. Hive no t 0 not nu 'ldm le, hat , s •;itsi li . i ~ ..11 Li to e: rem h ictik g c, mfeit th, had `Ti in at 4 4 tatty 3 cc • WOOL TRADE. Lord EBRINGTON presented a Petition from the Wool-combers of Tiverton, praying fora revision of the Laws relating to the Track in Wool.—Laid on the table. BANK RESTRICTIDN ACT. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, he had already stated that it was his intention to move, on an early day, for the continuance, for a short period, of the Restriction of Cash Payments by the Bank of England. He now wished to apprise the House, that, in consequence of a communication he had received, so lately as Friday morning last, from the Gentlemen composing the Committee, whom the Bank delegated to consult with Government on great official questions, he thought it was necessary, that the application for a Bill to continue the Restric .tions should be preceded by a Committee of Inquiry, to collect and lay before the House such information as could be disclosed without prejudice to the inte rests of the public. This being the case, he declined taking any step with respect to the Bank Restriction Act, until the motion of the Right Honourable Gen tleman (Mr Tierney) was disposed of, and the Re port of the Committee to which he had alluded was laid ork the table. Mr. TIERNEY expressed his satisfaction at find iag that the Right Honourable Gentleman began to sec the question in something like the right point of view —(I ear, /:efir, helm) If the Directors of the Bank wished sincerely for an inquiry, he congratu lated them on the extraordinary change iu their sen timents, since they had formerly, in common with Ministers, voted against any inquiry whatsoever— (Hear, hcnr, ham) He, however, might be allowed to say, that he did not expect any great benefit from the apponitment of this Committee. He would there fore renew the notice he had given on Thursday last, assuring the Right Honourable Gentleman, that he meant to 'persevere in his motion; because he was well satisfied that some trick was in agitation, for the purpose of defeating the object of that motion— (hear, hear,) He considered the proposition for a Committee to have been extorted from the fears of a weak Administration ; and he sincerely believed that it would render no substantial service to the country--Hear, hear.) BUNCH OF ABERDEEN. Lord ARCHIBALD HAMILTON stated, that it was his intention, on a future day, to bring under the consideration of the House, the recent election of Ma gistrates for the Burgh of Aberdeen; and as it would be necessary for him to be possessed of certain papers ior to • the discussion, he wished to ask, whether Ministers were disposed to grant those documents, or intended to resist their production? If the papers were grouted, he would submit his motion to the ' House on to-morrow se'nnight, under the impression that the Lord Advocate of Scotland would then be in his place, or if he were not, that the Right Honour able Gentleman opposite (Mr. Bathurst) did not deem his presence necessary. • Mr. BATHURST said, it was impossible for him to sleclate, As the Noble Lord had not expl;citly stated his view of the question, or the nature of the papers he wanted, whether their production would be oprsPtt or not: If he undetstond the Noble Lord's object, he die.. oot intend to coat e to .a copy , i Of the erahini issiied by the Privy Couri.il, for ihe appointment of Magistrates in Aberdeen, but tl.at meant to call for papers of another kind. The Noble Lord must therefore see, that bntil the precise object of his motion was known, and the nature of the papers he Meant to call for, he (Mr. Bathurst), could not state, particularly in the absence of those who un de!•stood the subject much better than he did, what resistance would be Offered to his proposition. As this question was connected with the police of Scot land, it would be proper to have the benefit of the Lord . Advocate's assistance when it was introduced. lie hoped, therefore, that the Noble Lord would postpone his motion till the Lord Advocate could, without inconvenience, come to town. Lord A. HAMILTON said, he would he sorry to subject the Lord Advocate, or any other person, to inconvenience--hut he felt that it would be absurd 'and improper to admit such a reason as that stated 'by t h e the Bight 119n.Gelitlerran to be sufficient fir postponing a most important discussion—(hcar,hrar). If he were even anxious, in deference to the Lord Advocate, to put off his Motion, the duty which he owed to the House would not stiffer him to do so.— He would, therefore, select to•moriow fortnight for the discussion. Ile wished it, however, to be under stood, if my absolute necessity existed for its postponement, he would agree to a delay of a few days—but he could not consent to wait until March or April. Mr. BATHURST said, the Noble Lord had c i nte misunderstood him. His observation merely that he hid been told the beginning of March was the time most convenient for the at tendance of the Lord Advocate. Lord ARCHIBALD HAMILTON ,aid he wou:d to-morrow fortnight bring on his motion, unless some strong ground were laid to induce him to put it oti for a short time. lic meant to move for the 'manna issued by the Pris. Ccnntil for the Election of Ma. gistrates in Aberdi.ea, the Petition from the Burges ses against the proceeding, and all othcr documents connected with the subject. —The Motion wac then definitively fired for to-morrow (this day) fortni';ht. MKMLAMM Mr. BROW NLOW movod,thAt the Speech of the Lore. Commissioners be printed.—:olderesl. Sir H. PARNEI.L Inroad, that the House should afterwards take into consideration the contents of that Speech. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHE.QUER afttrryards moved, that the Estimates of the Current Year should lie before them; that the Muse tbrnild adjourn till tts-morrow,-..d then resolve itself into a Cummlttee of the whole House. Sir It. PARNELL then moved that a Select,Cominittee be appointed to take into cou,ideration the state orthe Roads tween London and Holyhead, and also between IL.lyhearl .:.d Liverpool—Motion granted. CLlVEpresented the Fifth Report of the Commi4riiners for inquiring into the Duties, Fees. and Emoluments of t h e &rent Officers of the Courts of Justice in Scotland; .n.ri the Fifth and Sixth Reports of the same Commissioners, fur ire lat.d. Ordered to tie on the Table, and be printed. The House adjourned at Half-past Seven. REPORT OF THE CO3ISII.IITONERS, APPOINTED FOR ENQUIRING INTO THE WM:. oto PRENTNI. 'NG FORQ4D BANK-NOTES. Ordered to be printed by the House of Conirrom, January !:e. " To His Royal Highness George Friurc ?f• Regent of United Kiagdent of Great ltritain, ". In obedience to the directions contained in las Majesty's Conimission. we proceeded. in the latter end of the mouth of Joly last, to consider the impor tant subject referred to us. " Our attention was first directed to the proposals foe improvement in the form of the Notes issued I, y ,the Bank of England; and it being known that many plans had been submitted to that body, which they had not thought it expedient to adopt, we felt it pro per, in the first instance, to obtain cc:rreet infot ma. rion upon this point ; :nut we therefore requested the Court of Directors to furnish us with an account of such plans. They did accordingly furnish u. without delay, with a detailed account of ale Hundred a Light Projects, regularly classed and arrange) ;- to gether with the correspondence respecting them, a statement of the trials to which they had been sub. jetted, and specimens of the proposed originals, and of the imitations executed by order of the Bank.— They also laid before us about seventy varieties of paper made at their manufactory in experiments for its improvement, in which almost every alteration re commended for adoption had been tried, and, in some instances, anticipated by their own manufacturer. " We have also received and answered commilni-• cations from about seventy individuals, whicit'Lave been arranged and considered ; and in some cases, a rnal interview has been requested, and eZal of these persons had been previously in corn- . munication with the Bank; and we find, that in the instance of some projects of superior promi'e, Directors had furnished to the proposers the pes-u -niary means of carrying their ideas into effect. We have- likewise sought and obtained intormation to the state of the paper curt ency in other count; ins ; but this has proved of very little importance, v ith reference to the object of our present enquiry. Fi urn. America, which affords the closest parallel to the state of England in this particulftr, no official return has' yet been received, but we. have reason to think, that in several parts of the United States, the crime of Forges y is prevalent, and that great efforts are now. making to give to the Notes such a character as may baffle the skill of the American forger. 'SpeciMent cf these improved Notes have been comimsr.icated to us by the Agent of the American Patentee, and have received our particular attention with regard to the practicability of adopting the invention, in.whole or in part, so as to present a barrier to the art and skill of the forger in this country. " Upon the general subject of the extent of For gery, we do not think it necessary to recapitulate statements which are already befote Parliament and the Public. It appeared to us, however, proper to obtain more particular information as to the coarse which has been hitherto pursued by the Bank, both with respect to the prevention, and with ievect to the detection and punishment of the, crime. Upon the former of these points, we have received from the Directors, in addition to the account before alluded to, clear and circumstantial details. And it is but common justice to those Gentlemen to state, that in every instance our inquiries hive been met by them in the most prompt and satisfactory nrintier 4 and every sort tad useful information readily fm - rtishcd.— We feel is also proper to add our opinion, for:iied after an examination of all the projects which have been formerly submitted to the Bunk for a change hs the form .of their Notes, that 30 one of these coir' have been adapted with such .s prospect of wind ! , i ~, ,- +• ~.. 1 ": I It !, 4 ( I 1 ,4111 I 1 11 tn~ld - ~ I ~_ II f~ I I. :itt ~11~