Star. — London, England, 1801-03-20 00:00:00

Confequencc of the Bill we . !An grin . t.a. (elan C o nipcnCation to perfons whiiweri.entitled to i t by no Cervices, •and this toe', .i4p a tanner julli &el by no precedent in the, Conflitution. He en forced what had been urged by his non. Friend Who had begun the difetiffion, that no deputy ought in ,any, cafe to exercife a public office, and argued, that if ever there was a time when the Houle ought to be careful in the expenditure of the public money, it was Cutely at a time when the People were Coffering under the preffure of enor mous taxation. The Bill had been whimlically enough called a tefiainentary diipofition of the Irifh Parliament ; but he wiffied to know how far the 1-lonfe were to be bound by adherence to good faith. If the Parliament of Ireland improperly agree.; t o this difpotition, it was furely the duty of the I loufe. to revoke their grant. He 'could ' not but objea in the ftrongefl terms to a Bill which went to render the office of Chancellor of Ireland a finecure. He law no rcafon why the exercife of high and important legal duties lhould he given up for the duties of a politician, and withed that as far as poeible the judicial and legillative cha raCters fhould be feparated. The Lord Chancellor was at this moment in the enjoyment of 40001. a year, for the lots of his office of Speaker of the Houfe—a: fum which was thought fufficient for thofc who had retired from the office both ofChan cellor and Speaker in this country, after a life of the higheft public utility. He withed to know then why, if a deputy was neceffitry, this deputy thould not he paid out of the profits of the Wary enjoyed by. the Chancellor ? • Lord CASTLEREAGH raid he law no reafon why the affiaance thould be refilled to the Irith, which was granted to the.Englith Chancellor. With re 'pea to the compenlatton, on which lo much had been laid, it was granted according to the general fraeice both in Ireland and this country. He sollancircl the cafe of thefinecere officers of the Cu floras : . who had been allowed to retain their fituation for life. It was the fame thing when a retrenchment was decided, whether the office was continued until the &cede of the individual, or whether he had his falary granted to him for life. Mr. M. A. TAYLOR (aid, that fame Parliament wats.firll couftituted, he did not believe that Houfe had ever witneffed fo flagrant a job. The noble Lord did well to keep out of the fight of the Houfe in what manner this Bill had originated. He would venture to fay & thatlf thefe two noble Lords, who were Conaraiffioners of the Rolls, had oppofed the Union, they would have loft their places; and if three months previous to that event taking place, two others had been appointed, the confequence would have been, they would have gained.each an SILA011k• for having held •a place three months, in which they had nothing to do but to fign a receipt for the falary they had received. But lie could fee very well through the whole of this arrargement, fo amiably made ;--the perfon now to be appointed Mailer of the Rolls had re ceived a promife, .that the office thould be made efficient, with fuch a falary, fo that it wit, in fad, providing for three perfons inflead of two. This' he knew to be the cafe; he defied the noble Lord to deny it, for he believed be could name to him the very perfon who is •to be appointed to the of- I flee. However-young the noble Lord might be, he teemed to have been educated in the belt fchool of corruption he hid ever heard of. He coula not avoid faying this, notwithitanding the refpel he had for the noble Lord (a laagb), he could afure the noble Lord he did highly refpeft him ; and he declared that he had never heard the doc trines of corruption defended with fo much plea- fantnefs and eloquence as by the noble Lord. Mr: Roes laid, that the Committee appointed to enquire into places in the Cufloms had aeif • to let the perfons who held places they confidered tumecefary; continue to do fo during life. • Mr. Joao sox contended, that offices held by perfons (pending their youth , in- the tervice, were very different from the comproCarion propofed by the prefent Bill, he therefore fupported the Amend ment. Mr. Trawstarr Jomes..-4 agree in the propo rtion that this bill ought to be read lie months hence. 1 agree that at is almoli impoffible to de fine a term rofficiently ftrong for fuel a bill as this is. Here are compenfations „about to he granted annuities, which, foppofing they might be dif. pofed of at twenty years purchafe, of which I have no doubt, they *odd be 'Worth yo,Oool. What, Mill the Hot& confent to barthen the public with Each a lion as this, at a time when fasseiue has reached the gatec of the Metropolis? When the Houle has.been fitting in a Committee on famine? Would it not be better to lay out this firm in bread? If we go on in this way the people will not hear it. I beg the Houk will paufe, and not let one of the Aril ads of. the Union Parliament be an a& to grind the people, and to pamper the Nobles of the land, motto, ituftead of receiving falarics for doing nothing, ought to terve the public if it be in their power, without any emolument. If I were thought worthy to ferve the. public, though I am a man with a family, and polrefs but a moderate income, I would.do it for nothing. I would, beg the No ble Lord, inftcad of forcing a bill of this kind through. th e H ou k , to bring in a bill to apply the money for the relief of the people. Mr. DA vac's conlidered the rneafure as coupled. and identified with the Union; he had oppofod it in the Parlbunent of Ireland. It was a nseafure of compenfation that had grown out of the Union, or rather, the Union had g rown out of the com penfation. ConfiderinLttl e tis own country was to r y the w h o l e o f t h e n, he thought it his duty to oppofe it; it was his duty to oils -a to the grant of a film, which, if properly applied, might r_event the effeas elfitaine. When the Office .of Mader of the Rolls was held by Mr. Rigby, he received a compenfation for the purpofe of creat ing an efficient Mailer of the Rolls. It was after wards given to the Duke of Leinfter, another in efficient officer, who having the misfortune to differ with Government upon an important quer tit,o, that Noble Duke was difmifed, and the Of fice was given to the Noble Lord, to whom it was anw propofed to give a feeond eornpenfation.— 'rhos, Ireland would be doubly ying compenfa -6441, Vim Asa Mamba by Pragff* fay ftis elleetn for the charade? of t;'e Lird.Chan cellor of Ireland, and declared, li! ;::•uthl 'otot give his vote ag.t oft him upon the preie:a oce.i.lon, if he did not coneeireit his duty. Mr. GEORGE PONSONRY. I beg ff . '^ indulgence of the Hoe: to fay a few, words on this Bill. It has been laid, Sir, this is a teltamentary difpofition of the Parliament of Ireland. I can :ilfure the Houfe, Sir, and the People of England, that if they do fucceed to the full power of jobbing, which prevailed in the Irifit Parliament, that they have obtained a moft unfortunate legacy.—(A loud cry off bear!) But I apprehend, that before the Houfe accede to this Bill, they ought to enquire how far it is the refult of national engagements, as well, as how far it may be productive of public utility? If the public, Sir, arc to receive any benefit from the Bill, they muff receive it by the greater facility that will he given to the difpatch of public bufinefs. The firfi thing which the Houfe ought to be afcertained of, is, whether the Noble Lord has proved that the meafure is neceffary ? He has fpoken of the neceility of an alfeffor ; but, that perfon whom he chufes to denominate an affelfor, I hold to be a deputy. Fur what other name can fo well defcribe the charaCter of a perfon who executes all the duty of another, as the name of deputy ? Hitherto, Sir, there has been no de puty judged neceffary to perform the ditties in cumbent on the Chancellor of Ireland. Has the Noble Lord been empowered then to tell the Houle, that the appointment of Inch a deputy is now necelfary ? Has the Noble Perfon who is principally concerned in this matter, told him drat the lay Lords' who have hitherto acted as Com miffioners of the Rolls, are to he provided for in the manner which this Bill eflablillies ? Does he mean, Sir, to I - art.:Rion this job on the authority of the Noble Lord, and to tell the Honfe that this Bill has originated in any with for the appointment of a deputy ? I am convinced, Sir, that the Bill has originated in no filch communication. I will flake my life on it, that the Noble Lord never authorifed him to bring forward any fuch Bill, which under the pretext of providing for the better difpatch - of bufinefs, has for its real objet the con venience of two individuals. If this then is the cafe, I can perceive no neceffity exifting for the ap pointment of fuch a deputy. I have often, Sir, at tended the Court where the Nob] e Lord pre faded, and I have neverfeen any proofs of his inability to execute all the duties of his important office. I have neverfeen h im depart from the c on rt at th e en d of a term leaving fingle . motion'or caufe undeCided. On the con trary, Sir, I have ever Peen that he always went through the duties of his high office in a way which gave complete fatisfaaion. Of the neceffity of the Bill, or of the compenfation by which it is to be accompaniqd, I therefore can difcover no evidence which ought to fatisfy the Houfe. The Noble Lord who has brought in the Bill, has fated, how ever, that it is nothing unufual in the praCtiee of this Houfe to grant compenfations to thofe whole office is to be dtfcontinued. An Honpurable Gen tleman has laid,. that on the Report of the Com mittee of Finance, which declared certain offices to be unneceirary and burdenfome to the public ' it was judged expedient that their falary fhould be continued. The Noble Lord Pays that the com penfation now to be given is extaly the fame. But, Sir, I hold they are not the fame, unlefs the Noble Lord can thew that one and two are the fame. The Committee recommended .the aboli tion of certain offices, and for this purpofe thole who then held them, though left in poffeffion of their falariesocere not to have any fitccefrors ap pointed. By this meafure, however, the Noble Lord propofes that a compenfation is to be given for the Cervices of perfons unqualified for their fituation, and to fupply this deficiency he withes another perfon to be appointed to their office, with a clan& falary ; and then he tells the Houle that one aniftwo are exaalT the fame. But, Sir, the Noble Lord tells us that in good faith the Houfe is bound to adopt this martin:. I think you will agree with me in this, that the acceffary muff fol low the nature of Its principle. Now, Sir, I Ihould be glad to know what good reafons can be produced in favour of the arrangement that took place in the Irifh Parliament, on the fubjea of compenfation ? It is neceffary firfi to be fatisfied on this point, be castle if Parliament do not pats this Bill the job mil fall to the ground. How then, Sir, was the public faith pledged ? I believe, Sir, it was pledg• ed to carry the meafure of the Union. (Hear ! Near !) If the Noble Lords, who are quite ina dequate to the fituation they nominally filled, however ref peBable they may be in other points of view, had, inftead of fupporting this meafure, ventured to give it a decided oppofition, I will put it to the feelings and the fenfe of the Houfe, whether facts, a meafure as this would have been produced/ When this then is the cafe, and when no neceffity whatever exilled for the meafure in I Soo, or in any former year (ince the appointment of the prcfent Chancellor, I ihould be glad to know what has made it neeellary in sew ? I call on the Noble Lord, Sir, to lay his hand on his heart, and fay that the measure of Union was carried with out jobs and corruption of this nature. An Ho nourable Gentleman lays, that the Noble Lord is the apteft (choler he has ever Corn bred in the Jihad of: corruption. What fchool the Noble Lord was bred in I will not pretend to determine but this I will fay, Sir, that young as he is he has a very quick capacity for taking leffons of this kiwi—Before I fit down let me add, that if the Parliament of England deal with Ireland as the bilk Parliament dealt with it, the people of Eng• land will have as little reafon to regret the lofs of their Parliament as the people of Ireland had to regret the diffoltition of theirs. Lord CASTLERTAGH role in explanation, and laid the meafure had met the concurrence of the Noble Lord (Clare.) Mr. Pommies , denied having faid the Bill had not the content of the Lord Chancellor of Ire land ; he had afked if he demanded the meafure as one of neceflity ? He concluded by giving his fupport to the Amendment. Mr Eaves, in . a fpeeth of eonfiderable length, anted the grounds of his oppofition to the He could not help thinking, that at a time when the People of Irsliad were labosaiss under fever; , • difircifes, thelbufe oneh , . not to grant di r of ee,,, to a Hlearitr:whic:i "did not appear to he in tended as a remuneration fur inipor;.ott fervices, but a C ttpenl tiuu to perfons who 'Acre rliil;:ife,l• Iv ufelef,., as far as refpeiled flat fituation which they had filled. 'fit vas iwt-zifiry that they lhould be compenfated, he was convinced this could he better done in other ways than that now proposed ; and conceiving the Bill thus connefled with cir cumliances of unnecelfary burden to the Public, he felt it to he his duty to refill it. If it Should after wards be lodged neceffary to appoint at efficient Mailer of the Rolls, this might be brought before the Houfe in a more unexceptionable form, and the Houfe would, with more continency, be ena bled to entertain its difenflion. In conclusion he maintained, that viewing this meafure as the tella mentary difpofition of the hint Parliament, he could not help confidering it as what the Roman' lawyers denominated harreditas dainuoja, and as fuch he trolled it would be rejefted. Mr. TIERNEY defied the Noble Lord to pro duce a tingle inflance of a limil tr compenfition having ever been propofed or adopted ; and eon fidering the meafure as a mull unjuftitiable job, it had his decided reprobation. Mr. NICHOLLS Lid he had voted for the Union, but if many fuch legacies as this were bequeathed by the I Parliament, he lhould be ashamed of his vote. He had voted for the Union becaufe he conceived it neceffary to prevent a feparation be tween the two countries, and an union with our common enemy. It was avowed indeed, llia , jobs . would be nccelfary, but fatisfied of the imp, •t Lance i of the meafure, he was willing to wink. at thou, and tbnfolesi hirnielf with the teflalior, that lex frprona Jl j;ilur Hu/i. He had fiord, however, that they would be all carried iu tie flint P.O ha ment, and that itslios would terminate with its ex iftenee. But, what was this bill but a bribe to two Noble Lords who had no other merit but their fup port of the Union I It was laid that the but den would affal Ireland only, but was it Lion n that Ireland w.. 1. at this moment labouring tinder a fa mine ? He called on the Hattie to refill: the mea fure, and to be careful of degrading themielves in I the opinion of the People. Mr. ALE x ANDRIL fupportcd the neceflity of the meafure, which was agreed to in the prefence of so lawyers, none of whom oppoted the neceffity of appointing an efficient Mailer of the Rolls-. Dr. LAWRENCE laid, he knew no precedent to the mcafure propofed, but one, the molt nearly allied to it he conceived might be found in the will Of Mirabcau, who as a legacy bequeathed his debts to a friend. If the queftion before the Houfe had elated merely to the appointment of an efficient ailer of the Rolls, he Should not have conceived ; necelEtry to have oppofed it, but connected as the Bill was with the moll flagrant and ihameftil corruption, he was bound to murk it with his molt ilecided hollility. Becaufe the trill' Parliament had chofen to accede to the meafitre, that was no good reason why the Houfe Should involve them (elves, by puffing the Bill, in a there of the difgra;:e. Mr. Talmo& (an Ira Member), hoped the Houfe would• take the advice of an Honourable Gentleman ( Ntr. Ponfontsy),and not pats the Bill. Mr. Brno/slur Paid, lie had been 24. years a Member of Parliament, and this Bill he conlidered to be die molt objationable that ever, during that period, had been introduced into the Hogfe. He had voted far the Union; but not pledged himfelf to fupport corruption: he could not accede to a meafure founded in 'fuch enormous corruption as that noV. , brought forward, and that too in the able nee of the warmell advocate of the Union, (Mr. Pitt) or of any other perfons veiled with re fponlibility. Mr. PIERRE POINT raid, that though he had been only ten years a Member of Parliament, he could agree with the Honourable Gentleman that this was a mofl difgraceful meafure. So much was he convinced that the relation of it was neceffary to vindicate the honour of the Houle, that even if he were left alone in a divifiun, he Should feel it his duty to vote for its relation. Mr. Roßins laid, the confequences of the pre fent Bill were neither more nor lets than faddling this country with the paymeut of a penfion of 35001. per annum, to be levied by taxes im poled upon ',cook who can bear no more.— He was warranted by what had fallen from a refpetta4e and di ilinguilhed ill:water, Sir John Parnell, the late Chancellor of the Exchequer of Ireland, in the debate a few evenings ago, to af fat that the proportion Ireland WAS to pay of the general expellee was two-fifteenths, which that Gentleman affitred the Houfe would by no means deft ay the espences of Ireland. The pennon, therefore, would of necality be taken (non the pockets of the people of this country, and to whom paid ?—To noble Lords, one of whom has already a finecure penfion of 40001. per annum. Out of-what is it paid? out of the Income Tax, levied upon people of 6o or 701. a year. To de fcribe the Situation of fuch people was neekilefs any Gentleman, who would take hi; pencil' and calculate the daily expellees of a man with fo (mall an income, who has a wife and three or four children, would find that he could afford neither meat nor beer. Gentlemen, who daily fit down to good dinners with wine, might (mile at this account of diftrefs ; but he be fetched them to lay their hands on their hearts, and to reflai whether they could jullify themfelves to vote a Penfion which is to be paid out of new Taxes fuch as thofe laid upon felt and tea ? Mr. Robfon concluded with oblerving, that he thought the million and a half granted by Ireland to the Members of that Parliament, for the pur chafe of the people, would have been enough to have fatified every body: Though he was not peefent to deliver his fentiments on the martial law Bill, he detelled the meafure, but not fo much as he did the prefent job. The one was to be of Short exiftence, as he nippored to hail only during the kme of the free difcuffion of the great queftion of Catholic Emancipation. The other was to be per petual, and to eftablifh a penfion railed by taxes in the times of general diftrefs, and granted to ferve the purpofes of corruption. • Mr. WILIIIRTORCE, though he was aottred to *ten that eta acing Maker of the Trtlan d won!J no; lat extremely cx pedit lit, thought that under the eheiindiances n bielt the Bill 04- ginated, it had a t, I,l,:riel, to excite a tillpicion, that it %vas ni.r Iti,;.%eit.-d by motives of pubic but private C‘ , lllenience. Conceiving that if hereafter it fhoold lit judged proper to make fuch .in appointment, the Butte woold be perfally open to receive a nitaion for this purpofe, and be that no danger, would refult from a (bort delay, he felt it his duty to oppofe the Bill in its prtifent form. Mr. YORKE contended that all that was then lx:fore the Houle was, whether it would be ex pedient to have an eriicient Matter of the Rijls in Ireland ? For the accommodation of the public as well as of the Lord Chancellor, there was no doubt of the propriety of appointing fuch an olscer. As to the collateral matters which had been allud ed to, he was altogether ignorant of them. He knew of nothing that had been done to bring about the Union in Ireland but what he had heard of in that Houle. That compenfation had been voted to the late Noble Commidioriers of the Rolls, there was no doubt,and the BritilhYarliameht was bound to make it good to them. Mr. Jam s Magna faid, he was glad to fee in dependent Gentlemen who had been in the habit of lupporting Minillers, now ftepping forward to reprobate this meafttre. It certainly, howayer, mutt meet with reprobation front every one pot'. kffed.of the leapt deg::: of patriutifm, or the leail lode Ott deem um. Sir j.m PARN:.1.1,1.141 it was becaufe he Al know what palled in helmd, that he oppofed this Bill. It wa, part of a fyitem of corruption which he had always oppofed, and which he would con. ftantly perlift in oppofing. Many of the latter tranilielions of the Iriih Parliament, indeed, de ferved the epithet of ditgraceful, but the Parlia ment had not always been thus corrupt. It had once enjoyed the confidence of the people, and de ferved to enjoy it. It continued honeft till the late adminiftration debauched it. He fpol.•e with con. fiderable warmth in reply to fume things which had fallen from Mr. Nicholls. Could this Parlia ment, he afked, be difgrated by a tranfaaion which would not have difgraced the Parliament of Ireland ? What was corruption and jobbing in one country, was the lime all the world over. lie had oppofed the Union as thinking it dangerous to the confiitution of both countries, but he fhould be glad to find !timid/ in a Houle difpofed to remedy evils which lie muff ever deplore. Sir W. EL FORD laid he fhould vote for the Bill, but he begged it might be underflood on what ground he gave his vote. He thought the office a proper one to be eflablifbed, and the funs a rea fonable one to be allowed to him who is to fill it. Tilde were the only two things that he had taken into confider:L.-ion, and which, in his opinion, the Houle ought to confider. The Hattie then divided, when there appeared —Ares 61—Noes 42—Majority againft the A- I rr.::ndment t 9. The Bill was accordingly read a third time, and Lord CASTLF.RFAGII moved, that it do pals— when a fecund divition took place—Ayes 62 Noes 41—\faiority as. It was expccied that the Houle wouldhave again divided upon the tit!: of the Bill, but the tide was not oppofed, and Lord CAftlereagh was ordered to carry it to the I.ords for their concurrence. THIRD SFCRIETARY Of STATE. On re-entering the gallery we found is RYDRIt fpeaking on the fubjeet of the appointment of his Noble Friend ( Load Flawkc!bury) to the Office of Third Secretary of State.—He praifed the conduit of his Noble Friend, conceiving nothing could be more fair or more honourable than the manner in which his Noble Friend had brought this quell - ion before the Houfe to be decided. It was extremely difficult to give a preciti: definition to the Ad, (alluding to that commonly called Mr. Burke's Bill) since it might b,: concluded from the word. in g of it, that it applied to that Secretary of State who fhould be thirdly appointed. According to this a Noble Duke (the Duke of Portland) would have been, if a Commoner, difqualified as '1 bird Secretary of State from fitting in that Houfc. He thought, however, it never could have been the intention of the framers of the Aft that it fhould operate in this way, and he conceived that his Nobic Friend had accepted no office which ought to diflualify him from fitting in that Houfe. After r,vietting the Aa might be read, which was accordingly done, pro prma, he moved, " That Lord Hawkeibury is c..pable of being a Member of the Houle, notwithflanding his acceptance of the Office of Third Secretary of State." Mr. Bouv eats objeeted toeftablilbing a prece dent in that Houle contrary to Law. He thoaght the quellion ought to be diftufred on a motion for a new Writ. The Srrai; re obferved that the Houfe had Come times adopted the mode propofed by the motion, and fometinies that ailuded to by the laft Honour. able -Gentleman. Mr. TIER >4 F. v adverted to the direttfGem which formerly took place on the queltion, whether Mr. Dundas had been difqualificd from fitting in that Houle by having accepted the appointment of Third Secretary of State ? Contending that Mr. Dundas was difqualified, II; was anfwered, that the Secretary of State who was to fl appointed, was the Third Secretary of Stele. Upon this principle it was evident that Lord Hawkefbury was not dd. !ince he v‘-as not the Lea appointed. He did not mean to oprofe the motion for the re entrance of Lord Hawkefbury, as he (hould be glad to fee a Minatcr in any !lupe return to the Hove. He thought, however, the Hon. Gentle man who brought forward the motion fhouldhave Come little fceling for Mr. Dua das, who, as it ap peared from this motion relative to his fucceffor, having fat in the Houk inev;tably h ruine whilit te Thidrd by Secre ,' tary of State, mutt be the penalties to which he (Mr. Dundas) had fubjefted himfell by the Act now referred to. He really felt Corry for th it Right Hon. Centicman(Mr. Dundas), to whom all enmity on his part was now at an end, fine all the recent liberality of the Eat-India Company would be infufficient to pay the penal. ties incurred by that Right Hon. Gentleman. He thought, however, it would be . well fir the Hoe&