Star. — London, England, 1825-02-16 00:00:00

I hope * hoverer, that I mat meet my Honourable and Learned Riad at that Club which was formed by tile Learned Doctor. I am sure I shall be always glad to meet hint, andl am equally sure he will prove ars ac ceptable to me, as no doubt he would have done lb the Learned Personage who: , ,e prejudices he would have conquered. But for myself, I must say, I do net thissik , there is any moral benefit to be derived from calling on persons to do good by an ap t eal to the vices of their constitution. As matter of evidence, then, and not as a ground of charge against the Catholic Association, I Utter to that expression in their address, as tending, if sot to excite, at • least to exasperate animosity. Is this House prepared to answer this question-6 4 Whe ther the existence of the Association is conducive to, aps is calculated to retard the improvement of Ireland?" this is a proposition on which I hold it to be impos bible to entertain two opinions—(Cheers). But the ilotionrable Baronet (Sir F. Burdett) expresses his sur krise that when the Kings Speech declares that the ingdom is in a flourishing state, and that Ireland par takes of the general prosperity, there is a strange in ,tonsistency in calling for repressive laws to be applied to that part of the kingdom ! Inconsistency ! Sir, I see no inconsistency in those parts of the King's Speech ; I see the reverse. the fact that Ireland is improving in all the great branches of public prosperity, is esta blished by the testimony of all who know anything of the cocotte. Inconsistency, Sir ! Is it inconsistent to say that Ireland is advancing in all the ingredients of prosperity, as is manifest from all we know, and from communications directly made on the subject ; but that one particular evil exists which obstructs the progress of that prosperity, by dividing society—by diverting capital from its natural and productive course—by destroying the confidence by which commerce flourishes—by embittering the intercourse between Man and man in the affairs of life ? It is idle, Sir, to endeavour to say that this evil does not obstruct 6:establishment of manufactures, of commerce, of wealth, and general prosperity. My lion. Friend knows, as well as I do, that trade and prosperity were setting in full upon Ireland. While this Association exists, it must be allowed to stem the tide ; and if not to stop, at least to check its flew—(Cheers). Is it not then the duty of the Legislature to restore that state of things which tended so rapidly to place Ireland in her proper place in the scale of nations ?—(Hear.) With respect to the question, whether it is necessary to put down an Association arrogating unconstitutional power, and tending to exasperate the feelings of men, and to check the prosperity of the country ? It is easy to answer it without introducing the word Catholic, or defining what its religious opinions may be—(Hear). — The reason for putting it down, be it Catholic or Pro testant, is not that it Is religious, but that it is of a mis chievous political character. I do not attribute to the Catholic—using that word only to discriminate—l do not attribute to the Catholic Association that it affirms itself to possess a representative character. Undoubt edly it affirms no such thing. If it had, no law would be necessary to put it down. Bat, Sir, I cannot shut my eyes to the tact, that a representative character has been attached to it in the debates of this House. 11 notoriety be a good foundation for the interference of the Legislature, as I hold it is, the opinion expressed in this House that such an Association so connected must have a virtual representative character—that opinion the House must think a reason why it should still more seriously consider how to deal with it. Can an Asso ciation with such a character attached to it, though not assumed, and this House, be coexistent ?—(Hear, hear) s it possible that a House such as this is, representing us it does the Commons of the Empire, and a House bearing a representative character as powerful,as sacred, and as effective as that of this House, though not con ferred by the same process, can continue to wrist and perform their function* together? (Hear, hear) — I intended to abstain from casting imputations, and I hope I have refrained from applying any harsh words' to the Catholics I had no disposition to do so ; but if I bad, the information communicated by the Honourable Baronet, would entirely have disinclined me from so doing. That information makes no difference, however, as to the expediency of this measure. Because the Ca tholics will obey the law, Parliament ought not to re frain from passing it. On the contrary, with this de termination on their part declared, it is still the duty of Parliament to persevere. It was attempted, in the ear lier stages of the debate, to represent the Catholic As sociation as merely instrumental to bring that question under the consideration of Parliament; and it was asked, whether we could put down that body without cutting off all communication between the Catholics and the House of Commons? To that question I was prepared to have applied myself; but after the information given by the Honourable Baronet, it would have been so rcerous to press further-- & F.BURDETT said be had no information beyond what be had -collected from the public proceedings of the Catholic Association. Mr. Secretary CANNING said, that he bad undimmed the Ilea. Baronet to make an outhmised conanumicatia•—(Hear). Mr F. BURDETT said, he was only in possession of the new.- paper account. Mr. BROUGHAM understood it to be intention of the Catho- Nc Association to bow with submission to the law, when it bad re -mired the Royal assent ; but that in the meantime, they desired to be heard by their Counsel and their witoesses, at tole liar. Mr. Secretary CANNING asked if he was to understand it to be a submission coupled with some condition ? Mr. BROUGHAM again rose, amidst loud cries of 'Larder" and *" hear." He sai d that, if . the Geistletnen who cried order, would Notes to him , they would fad that be only desired to save the time of the Heine, and to prevent the Right Hen. Gentlemen from pin g Wee unnecessary arguments. The Anociadom bad declared that they should make an unconditional Mondale., when the maws became the law of the land; but, in the meantime, that they &add take every constitudonal memo of opposin g the !NIL Mr. Secretary CANNING continued—When I was in ternipted by the Hpn. Baronet, I was proceeding to mate that it would be ungenerous to press on the Cabo lies when the Association was suppressed. I, Sir, see as reason in this ready submission of the Catholics for . ' suspending the Bill, but for passing it. Oa the first ;canal question, as to the necessity of this measure, not fit, Sir, that any body should exist, holding faith of the people confided to its keeping. Secondly, viewing this body in its connection with the Catholic people, and as likely to retard the pro . of the Catholic Question, I am of opinion that for interest of the Catholics themselves, there should be end put to the Catholic Association. If the Bill be brought in and passed,suspicion may be diminished ; and linger which now exists allayed. I, Sir, certainly opinion, that we mast attribute to the excesses Catholic Association the alienation sif the public from the Catholic Question. I stated, Sir, on the :tight of the Session, my belief on this subject. I not then state my grounds for this belief, but it is a I regret to say, is too well founded ; and I now my belief, that the C a th o li c Q uest io n h as retro . Vided in the minds of the people of England. M) opinion on this subject is sttetigthaned by what Vat so Wrstated by the Right . trinnunabia Gentientett Tierney) who concluded the debate en Friday lag, and who then, for the first time, opened his lips upon this question, which for many years he had zealously sup ported by his vote. The Right Honourable Gentleman, with the judgment and sagacity with which he always selects a topic which tells with this Hou-e or with the country, prefaced his observations in support of the Catholic cause s with declaring he was by birth,education, and pi nciple,warmly attached to the Church ofEngland. The Learned Civilian, too, (Dr. LushinAton), had made the same declaration, and still more strongly stated the degree to which the Church of England it rooted in the affections of the people of this country. This was a sentiment deeply rooted, as I had often occasion to know by personal communications,in the mind of Mr.Grattan. In every Bill which he presented for the furtherance of the Catholic claims, he studiously set fort in the pre amble that the English Protestant Church was inviolably settled by the Act of Union as the Church of both coin tries ; and this Bill, so far from shaking the establish ments of this Church, was decidedly intended to strengthen and confirm it. (Hear, hear ly The sth Resolution, on which the Union between Great Bri tain and Ireland runs, is, Sir, in these words : " That it be the sth article of Union that the Churches of England and Ireland.as now by law established,be united into one Protestant Episcopal Church, to be called the United Church of England and Ireland ; and. that the doctrine, worship, discipline, and government, of the said United Church shall be, and shall remain in full force for ever, as the same ate now by law e.tablished for the Church of England ; and that the continuance and preservation of the said United Church, as the Established Church of England and Ireland,' shall be deemed and taken to be an essential and fundamental pair of the Union." It was in reference to this article, Sir, that Mr. Grattan always introduced his Bills into this House for the relief of the Catho lics. I believe, also, Sir, that in the Bill introduced into this House by my Right Honourable Friend (Mr. Plunkett), there was a clause in the preamble of it si milar to the clause in the preamble of Mr. Grattan 's Bill, and intended to provide for the safety and invio lability of the Established Protestant Church. Up to 1 the period at which these Bills were discussed, the be lief of the people of England was, that such a protect ing article was a fundamental pan of that arrangement; within these two years they have seen, certainly no decision in this House of a contrary nature, but they have seen questions mooted and divisions take place, that have caused great alarm, and have resuscitated an opposition till then almost estinct—(Cheers). On the 4th of March, 1843, the following Resolutions were moved in this House: " Resolved, That the property of the Church of Ireland, at pre sent in possession of the Bishops, the Deans, and Chapters of bog land, is.puWic property,uoder the contrast and at the disposal of the Vegislature i for the support of religion, and for such other pur poses as l'arliament in its wisdom may deem beneficial to the eon malty, due attention being paid to the rights of every person DOW enjoying any pan of that property. " That it is expedient to inquire whether the present Church Establishment of Ireland be not more than Cemmensurate to the services to be performed, both as regards the number of persons employed, and the incomes they receive ; and if so, whether a re duction of the same shall nut take place, with due regard to 'Aw ing interests ? " That the peace and best interests of Ireland would be promoted by a commutation of tithes, ea such primiples as should be map sidered just and equitable towards the present peeesseor, whether lay er cletkaL" The question upon these resolutions was put and lost by a majority of one hundred and five, the numbers for them being 62, while those against them were 167 (Hear). In thus adverting to the fruits of past expe rience, I only mean to contend, that the inevitable con. sequence of a departure from that rule which Mr.Grat tan laid down, and an adherence to which he thought a necessary preliminary to all his motions respecting the Catholic Question, mug be fatal to the success of any future motion upon the subject—(Hear). The Churches of England and Ireland are now united by law; and it being my opinion. as it was that of Mr. Grattan—an opinion in which I feel that I am only the organ of the sentiments of the people of this country—that the invio lability of this Church Establishment ought to be pre. served. I would, therefore, warn those Gentlemen who deem the carrying of the question of Catholic Emancipa tion, the . " one thing necessary" to the salvation of the country, that Win the preamble of any Bill which they may introduce, they do not adhere to the same sacred re cognition of the inviolability of the Protestant Church, I warn them, I repeat it, that their measure will fail.— I trust it will not be said that because such is my opi nion, 1 am on that account unfriendly to the Catholic cause—(Hear, bear). I am not unfriendly to the Ca tholic cause, although I must own myself decidedly opposed to the spoliation of the Church of Ireland.— It is not from love to the religion of the Roman Catho lics, it is not from respect for their absurdities and im• positions, it is not from lukewarmness to the note:tent ieligion, that I am friendly to Catholic Emancipation, and think it possible to do justice to both the Catholics and the Protestants, but I do not think it possible to maintain the resolutions and to carry . the question of, Emancipating--(Hear, hear). I have now stated to the House the reasons that induced me to form the opinion that the question had retrograded ; and I do not think I took up the opinion lightly. And I will further add, that if the Catholic Association be permit ted to exist—if, after the language that bas been there spoken, and after the intimidation it has held out, it continues the organ of conveying to the people of England such language and intimidation as have recently marked its proceedings, it will be hopeless to try the Catholic Question. In saying this, I am dis posed to regard the information which has been com municated to the House this evening , and the declaration (if faithfully fulfilled) of the Catholics to respectfolly obey the law, as a circumstance most favourable and auspicious to their cause. By the dissolution of the Association, one of the obstacles to which I have alluded will be surmounted, and the unfriendly feeling—l will not say retrogradation, which has taken place in the minds of the people of England towards this question, may,l trust,be gradually rentoved—(Hear, hear). There is one argument, however, upon which great sues has been laid, both in the course of this debate as well as upon many former occasions, ;bat hitherto every boon which has been granted has been conceded to the higher orders, and that the lower classes of the Roman Catho' lies have not only not been benefited by your forme, measures, but that they are not solicitous for future favours. I can neither.Sir.ailmit the fast, nor subscribe to the inference. If you benefit one class of the R 'man Catholics, you confer a benefit upon all ; for what effects the higher orders communicates itself by a kinslorsYm pathy to the lower, although the chain which bincithesti together may be formed of innumerable links—(lw) I now, Sir, tut n to,/ subject upon which I must request the indulgence of the flottse,ex it is of suck a rater's, most compel me to occupy their attention much-longer than I otherwise meant to do (Hear). I cannot, how ever. permit the insinuations which have been this night thrown out by the Honourable Baronet (Sir F. Burdett) insinuations of which, as far as I am personally con cerned, I think I have some right to complain, to pass wholly unnoticed The Honourable Baronet has asked how it can be expected that a Government divided upon so important a measure as the Catholic Question can exist ? This is riot, however, a problem of to-day. It is one of 25 years standing ; a problem which every Go vernment which this country has seen during that long period has exhibited. and without a single exception. I ask the House, I ask the Honourable Gentlemen who have made the charge, -tq tell me when that. Govern aunt existed, since the Union with. Ireland, in which there prevailed a common sentiment with respect to the Catholic Question ? I ask them to point out a sin gle month, for the last twenty-five years, in which a di vision of opinion on that question did not exist; and where the objection of sitting in a divided Cabinet was not equally as applicable to all preceding Administra -1 tions as to that Administration against which the accusa -1 don is now so repeatedly and so unfairly made? 1 defy e Hon. Baronet to give an answer to this appeal. At the period immediately preceding the Union, it was .th the principle and understanding of the then Adminis tration to resist every concession to the Catholics. To that period succeeded the Administration of my Lord, Sidmouth, with whom was associated the late Lord Londonderry. Then came the Administration of Mr. Pitt, in 1805. In each of those instances the Members of the Cabinet were divided upon that question. I now come to the Administration of Lou! Grenville and Mr. Fox ; and it is not because I am actuated by the vulgar motive of saying you did the samc—(A laugh)—that I . venture to remind the Gentlemen of the opposite side, that in that Administration also the same discordance of sentiment prevailed upon this particular question. (Hear, hear li Then followed the Administration of the Duke of Portland upon the death of Mr.Epx, and upon this occasion two persons, most hostile to the Catholic Claims, were, one would almost imagine purposely, sought out to create disuni.n where it might not have existed. One of those persons was Lord Sidmouth, and thp other was brought into the Cabinet from a place whence, I trust in Goo, no Member of a future Cabinet will ever again be brought—the seat of the Lord Chief Justice of England—(Cheers). I have thus. Sir, gone through the various Administrations from the period of the Union to the present day, and in so doing, I as very far from wishing to cast any opprobrium upon the persons forming those Adaninistratioas. My object has been to vindicate myself, and those with whom I have the honour to act,frem the insinuations which have been so unfairly thrown out against us—Meal. . As ler as I am personally concerned, I can safely assert, that my conduct, whether in or out of office, has been invariably consistent upon the subject of the Catholic Question—(Hear, hear, hear). I never pro. fessed not to act with an Administration which did not make the carrying of that measure the basis of their Administration. All I claimed was, that I should be perfectly free, as far as my own vote and individual exertions were concerned ; and this chilli being admitted, I cannot see the inconsistency of be coming part of a Cabinet which shall be unanimous on every other question, although disagreeing in this. Such was the principle laid down by Mr. Pitt. To that I have adhered through every change of Administration. Acting upon it in 1810, I sent out of office. A change took place in 1812,when Mr Perceval became Prime Minister. That, Sir, was a critical year to the Roman Catholics and to the Empire at large. The question of the re. strictions upon the Regency was then in agitation.— Having made up my mind upon the Catholic Question, I waited with anxiety until that question was decided. When at length the restrictions were taken off, conceiv ing that an unrestricted Regency was tantamount to a 'new reign, I took the first opportunity of stating my. view of the Catholic Question. The statement which I then made was not, however, in a spirit of hostility to the Government; for it was not until afterwards that I learned, first from Mr. Perceval, and afterwards from Lord Castlereagh, that the Cabinet to a man was hostile to Catholic Claims. I then stated explicitlymy sentiments in this House,and voted for the first time in favour of Mr. Grattan 's Bill. I also gave notice of a motion, having for its object the pressing of that measure through theHoise. I had then made my declaration and took my leave.— After the death of Mr. Perceval an offer was made me of a place in the Cabinet. The only question I asked was, whether the same hostility towards the Catholic Question prevailed in the Cabinet? I was answered that it did, and I refused office—(Cheers). Atter this 'statement, I should be glad to know, Sir, what right any Honourable Member has to impute insincerity to me, or to estimate my conduct and motives by the vulgar test of my having been in or out of office? .---(Hear, hear , hear.) If, Sir, I was a person upon whom liii place had suck charms as to render me in erent to principle, what more favourable oppor tunity could there be for getting into office than that which was then offered to me, and which I refused? I bad borne my share in the obloquy of suppqrting the Spanish war. I had seen the storm gather round me, and supported myself through it with difficulty. At length, in 1812, the tide turned, the political horizon cleared up. After a long and arduous struggle we were upon the ewe of an honourable peace; and I ask any man who has the spirit of an English Gentian* and the good of his country at heart, whether, under such circumstances, it would not have been an object< of proud and honourable ambition to be enabled to leap the reward of that for which he had so lone toiled ? But _when, Sir, I was informed I could not accept office unless I formed a part of an Administra tion, all the Members of which were decidedly hostile to the Catholic Question, I at once declined office.— (Hear, hear, hear). What followed? A 9 address was presented from that House to his Majesty, praying that he would be plea Ted to form a new Administra tion. Lord Wellesley and myself were the persons chosen for this purpose. We met accordingly. His Lordship wrote to Lord Grey, and I went to Lord Liverpool, in order to form a joint Administration. What does this prove? Simply, that it was my °pi. nion (absurd as such an opinion may be deemed) that ran Administration might be formed ; and 1 may nes mark also, Sir, that at this period I was not seeking a place; I was a distributor of place to bthers--(Hear. hear).—l say, Sir, my conduct upon this otca-ice 'roves, that it was my opinion au Administration could • formed, which, agreeing upon. all other subjects of oreign and domestic policy, might still disagree upon the subject of Catholic, Emencipation , —(hear).—W hat then becomesof the reproach, that for the sake of office [I gave up that question? Here I was out tt candidate 'fir, but a distribetee of, office; here kat en nisiration to f4rna, not an appooetmeat to seek. Why do I advert to it, but because it stews that I was prepared-then to act with my colleagues on the very bats on which the present Administration stands. I may have been wrong in my judgment ; it may lse asr absurd position to take ; but, even allowing that, it 4- • fords a full illUstration that these exists no ground for the insinuations of a want of itttegtity, or that any mean, sordid, or personal motive had any influence its tot ming such an Administration. What then becomes of the disingenuous use made of any refusal to the Ad ministration of 1812 ? In fact, Sir, the force of the statement refutes ittell. My objection to the Admi nistration of Mr. Perceval was, that the several Mem bers of it were bound together by a pledge, by which they engaged, collectively and irKtividctal.y, to op pose Catholic konancipation ; to this pledge I would not con sent. This House was afterwards dissolved, and a nego ciation for a new Ministry went on. At the time I have alluded to, my motion was brought forward, and she effect of it was, to pledge the House to take into consi deration the Catholic claims, with a view to an adjust ment. Lord Castlereagh ably seconded it, end it was carried by a clear majority of 129. At the same pe , Siod, the motion was brought l ot war d i n t h e of tords by Lord Wellesley ; there it was lost, for there 'Nome 126 against it, and 125 for it, so that it IA as only lost toy,a wino, ity of one. 1' ese were the halcyon days of the y Catholic Question, and though I s ho u ld siticete l y d es i te • to see them again, I yet fear it is not likely. Oti that basis that Cabinet stood, bailed by the most able defenders of the cause as a most beneficent change, and iu the course that I pursued, I feel myself justified in ,defying any man to affix to me the shadow of suspicion, or even the slightest stain of insincerity—(Elear). lam awa;e, from the very course which I felt it was most necessary to pursue, that I had individually been oh noxious to many who profess to take a warm interest in the success of that very cause—(Hear, hear). The rea•on is, becausekin advocating the Catholic Question, I h ave always claimed the right of doing so upon my own res poesibility, at my own discretion; and, above all, without communication with the Roman Catholics thentseive, (Hear, hear). I have made it no party question, Sir. In advocating it nave not consulted particular interests: I have looked to the general good of the Emil'. e This is the doctrine which I have held both iic and out of Parliament, whether a,Merober of the Government or not. I have seen touch in the ploceedinos of that body, which I wish that I had not sans T hey constitute a body, to be employed in idiom service a man must b delivered in trammels—(Hear, hear). What need or further comment, whin we look to their conduct tit wards their old and faithful servant, the Earl of Do noughmore? In 1812 I would have given ten years of my existence to have been two in office; not that I cared for office itself, but on account of the then state of the country. Yet, notwithstanding my ardent desite, I then refused office on account of the Catholic Ques tion. From my earliest youth I had owe great object of ambition beyond everything—it was a desite to se present the University in which I was brought up. When I first entered into the political world, and took the decided part in favour of the Catholic Ques don which I did, I was fairly warned that 1 forteited all chance of success in my election—(Hear, hear). It was the greatest of all the disappointments I base . experienced in my life (and 1 have experienced not a few)—l say, this was the greatest; it desttoyed all the hopes I bad noutisbed for years ; but I remembered the (pledges I had made, and I disdained to forsake them —Continued cheers). I rejoice that the proud honour has fallen into better hands—the hands of my Right Hon. Friend near me (Mr. Peel) Long may he enjoy the distinction, and may it prove a source of reciprocal pride—(Hear, bear). Yet that disappointment I experi enced, and I owe it to the Catholic Question. This is the first moment of my life, that either ie private or in public I have made that acknowledipte It is that a little too much that lam to be taunted and twitted with the imputation of having joined a Cabinet of divided opinions on this subject, merely from the de sire of office. Condemn my judgment, but acquit m y bonour—(Hear, hear). As to the prospects of the great question itself, I do not expect that I shall make con marts of the Honourable Gentlemen opposite; still I do most solemnly believe, that with respect tb this question, there exists in this country, at present, opposed to the measure, a great inert MASS of the people s whose feelings are only to be waked upon by repeated decisions and Parliamentary discussions on the subj ect. But then it.is imputed to me, rathet in terms of flattery. that I possess the means of temedying tie evil. I know not exactly whether the Honourable Gentleman meant that I should resign office myself, or, by forcing a division in the Cabinet, compel the dis sentients to retire. The latter course I disdain i I respect the terms en which the Administration was formed, and shall never 'violate them. For n.) self, I am perfectly at liberty to leave office when 1 deem it proper, and to moot in the. Cabinet, or in this House, whatever question a sense of duty in,- poses upoeme. I reset ve to myself the tight and tl•e exercise of an unfettered judgment. The Honourable Member for Midhurst (Mr. John Smith) called on me the other night in terms of much civility, conjuring me to take the cause which he proposed, relative to bringing this question forward, and to take that cause w nth little delay as possible ; and asking nte, if no desite fir fame induced me ro do it ? I trust lam not insenate to the praises of my friends, or the good-will of an enlightened community, for a man that could .leo insensible to such a feeling does not deserve to held a high official station its a free country (cheers) ; but • as I have braved, under the sense of duty, unpopul'atity without fear, I never shall sacrifice-either conscience or public duty to its pursuit —(Hear, heat).—Lastdo ota *engem, or, to quote the finer description of the same feeling by Dryden— ', I can enjoy her while she's kind, But when she dances in the mind, And dukes her wings, and will not stay, 1 puff the prostitute sway."--(ebeers.) I would not court her at the sacrifice of principle. or the surrender of my judgment. To the Honourable and Learned Gentleman (Mr. Brougham), who, from his speech on a former night, appeared to identify him self with the Catholic Association, I would say, as I do anticipate that mine is a surer muse to a real popula• r i t y than what his coarse indicates. I do adulate his tavneps.l asilities, his intelli L i n - wearied industry, but even qualities, he may still e: the qua: ter where he expec me, who have had some Stetimus tela aspen COUttliittitimple tt>aouss er let Clypeutu maga, quo air P. 011.111. collected Iron Mr. Seem 800. Baronet Or F. BUI paper moon Mr. BRO Be Aweeiatie calved the be heard by t Mr. Secret be a submittal Mr. BRO ." hear." s Bites to him, of the Hour, into 111111ftell they should hem* the 1 Cabe every CI Mr. Sec tempt e d ace that i lice when As reason suspendinj ;tonal qt it is sot The faith of an. views Whole Catl tress of th e interes on end pui bronsht in the anger ant of opi Of the Catl itgad iron erg night • did not ( i x belief. I rt vermt my traded in imellectu tl p•swers, his un- even uith such distinguilhed - experience disappointwent in •, pests regard. Let' him beligto ex lie. Luce— • rra coinu, , :xperto eretlite. quantus 10 turbine toiqueat bowie T . •