Star. — London, England, 1815-02-16 00:00:00

h .~ }, .. of keeping the militia embodied were insurrection, rebellion, invasion, or imminent danger of invasion. His Lordship then alluded to certain statements of grievances relative • to the militia service which' had reached hi,n ,• he had, however, omitted to bring the document. He deprecated the idea of a standing -army thus endeavoured to be introduced, and con - eluded by moving an address to the. Prince Regent for the immediate disembodying of the militia. • Lord Vireoent SIDMOUTH remarked upon the • • time which had elapsed since this subj-ct was first mentioned by the Noble Earl, and that it was now brought forward at a time when the disembodying of the rfanaining reg iments of militia was actually in progress. He t hought it extraordinary that the Noble Earl, with his view of the importance of the subject, should have thus delayed bringing it forward. Since the pet iod when the Noble Earl first mentioned this subject, the Crown Lawyers nad delivered their opinion that it was perfectly competent to the Crown to keep . the Militia embodied, notwithstanding the termination of the war, so long as circumstances rendered it necessary, the Ministers acting in such case upon their responsibility. That such was the law with regard to the Militia he had no doubt. The Noble Earl had shewn, by quoting the Acts of Par liament, that to keep the Militia, or any part of them embodied, notwithstanding the termination of the war. was no: contrary to the letter of the law, and he (Lord Sidmou:lij vas decidedly of opinion, that neither was such a measure at all at variance with the spirit of the law. In all the Acts regarding the Militia, were to be found, consistently with a due constitutional jealousy of the Crown, the circum. stances strictly defined under which alone the Militia shield be called out; but in none of them was it stated under what circumstances the Militia should be disembodied. It certainly never had been in the contemplation of Parliament that the services of the Militia should cease with the cessation of those causes, which had, limier the authority of the law, led to their being called out ; and there were nume rous instances in which the Militia had been kept em bodied long after the reasons ft•r calling them out had ceased to exist. His Lordship referred to some of the instances he had quoted on a former occasion, and mentioned the case of the seven years war, the year 1759, when the Militia were called out and kept on foot in 1760 and 1761, notwithstanding all danger of invasion, had then ceased. In 179'2, when a Noble Lord opposite was then in Administration, the Militia WAS wisely called out by, perhaps, what might be deemed a strained construciion of the law, but which was a highly judicious measure. In 1E 4 05 the Militia were kept embodied, when the situation • of affairs that had required their being called out no ' , lnger existed ; to come still neater, when the French army was totally ruined on the Beresioa, what danger of invasion any longer existed ? How then did the reasoning of the NAile Earl apply ? The cause for calling out the Militia had in many of these instances altogether ceased, butt yet Parliament had by its votes sanctioned their being embodied, thus shewing their sense of its weessity, under the circumstances of each case. Thus in the list war, subsequently to the Peace of Paris, the House of Commons had voted the pay and clothing of the Mi litia till Christmas last, and the vote had been into , - duced into the Appropriation Act, thus proving the construction which Perliament gave to the Militia Laws, as to the Militia remaining embodied when circumstances required it, although the CAUSES of their being otiginally called out had altogether ceased. It was only, indeed, in consequence of the Militia re imaining embodied at that period, and being thus ap. plicable to the domestic military service, that the army at Bourdeaux could be allowed to embark to support the cause of the conntry in another hemisphere.— Against this measure no one had attempted to raise his voice, and he was confident that any one who had done so, would have been overwhelmed with public 'indignation. Thus, therefore, Parliament had recog nised, in repeated instances, the expediency of keep. ing the Militia embodied, alter all the causes for call ing them out had wholly ceased; and it evidently bad never been the intention of the Legislature to prescribe a period when the disembodying should take place. in the Local Militia Acts, it WAS expressly hated at what period that force, when embodied, should be disemhediEd ; but although the Regular Militia esta blishment had been repeatedly before Parliament, no provision WilatrV.T had been made as to the period of its being disembodied when once called out. He was therefore justified in concluding, that Parliament had not thought it fit to legislate upon this point, leaving it to the discretion of the G.,vernment to keep the Militia embodied so long as circumstances ren dered it necessary ; Parliament itself having the con trout over the conduct °few Government, by holding the purse of the nation, and by the annual Mutiny Bill, He admitted that it was burdensome to that part of the Militia kept embodied, and he should be doing great injustice to that force if he did not ackitcne. ledge, in the highest terms, their zeal and loyalty ' but it would have been little flattering to them to have been dismissed when the country so essentially required their services for domestic military purposes, in order to enable the regular troops to support the cause of the country against its enemies. He teas, therefore, perfectly satisfied as to the legality at keeping the Militia embodied, and fully convinced of its expediency, under the circumstances which had existed. lt, however, the House thought with the Noble Earl, that such practice was contrary to law, they would, of course, decide in favour of the motion, whatever might be the consequences. If, on the contrary, they thought that it was perfectly legal, and that expediency required, under • tbe circum stances stated, its ad , ptiun, they would with him give the motion a decided negative. Lord GRENVILLE answered at considerable length. • He was peculiarly 'surprised at the paper which bad been laid on the table. It contained the opinion of the Law Officers of the Crown - on the Act. But he recAlected a period when the Judges had been called on for extra judicial opinions, and they recommended the raising of ship-money, if it pleased the Crown. The Crown Law Officers had given Crown Law of this nature within his own memory, but it could not stand a moment in the Calms. As to the commission in the Act coin mending the King to disband the Militia, he could find no statute which made arty thing imperative an the -King, th`ough it might command his Ministers. bet in 1'79+2 &ere seas dingek ill but actual rebel. lion. He wished tallow, whether in future the con venience or his Majesty's Government wap to be the standard of keeping up the Militia in the realm ? Set this monstrous pmposition was the argument of the paper and the Noble Lord. The LORD CHANCELLOR considered the In terpretation of the Noble Lord (Grenville) as un sound. In the first place, there were statutes impe rative on the King. In this very 42d of the present reign, it was enacted, that the King, on calling out the Militia, may and shall communicate the same to Parliament, or assemble it for the purpose, within fourteen days. lint in no part of the Act which thus guardod against the Royal authority in calling our, was there a word as to disembodying. It was impossible to presume that this material point should have escaped all the framers of the successive Militia Acts ; they of course left it to the wisdom of the crneNency. He should put the case of the Dundee insurrection in 1792, when he was fighting by the side of the N ible Lord (Grenville). The Marquis of BUC)CINGHAM considered the gre..t qnestion to be, whether a standing army was to be maintained in time of peace ? The embodying of the Militia was to regulated by statute law, and not by the impressions which Ministers might at tempt on Parliament. The period of 1778, alluded to by the Noble Viscount, when the Speaker congra tulated the King on being enabled to dispose of the regular forces, was rather unfortunate, as we were then just on the eve of a war; but now all war bad ceased. Lord ELLENBOROUGH said this was not exactly a question of a standing army, nor was the present strictly a time of peace. He thought it his conscientious duty to vote against the proposed Ad dress. It the Statutes were silent on the subject of disembodying the Militia, what was undefined cer tainly left to t'le Crown a power to exercise its discre tion, which wos to be exercised is ith an anxious re gard to in oper feelings knd to public justice. Where was it t , l be found Low the King was to be limited in such cases, otherwise than by exercising a sound and wholesome discretion, according to the nature of the particular occasion ? Cases of this sort were not always so clear in the original exercise as in the con tinuation. What were the circumstances in 1792, when the Noble Baron bo:e a great part? The nister of that day was very able to construe an Act of Parliament; but two things were desirable, the as sembly of the Legislature, and the collection of an armed public force ; and the Noble Lord believed he wilbntly stretched, or, pet haps, made the law on the subject, for which he did not blame him, on ac. count of the pressure of circumstances. It would be ridiculous ti say that insurrection was then the cause; On the 13114 f November, some boys had met at Dundee, ;tang the bells, and burned about 100 oil and rorrer casks; but before the post came away with the imelbgence, he believed all those insurgents were in their beds. Ti . e Proclamation stated, that tumults had manifested themselves in acts of riot and insur rection ; the militia wire called out, and Parliament assembled. There was also a kind of p.readu mnt held in Scotland. The assembling of Parlia ment was necvssary, as the word " shall" in an Act was imperative, whereas that of 44 may" was only enabling. Certainly the times were very anxious, but there seemed no particular danger till after the murder of the King of France. He should be sorry it any thing . that was said should lead the Militia to oppose that the Mtitiny . Law was of no autnoiity. !Lion forbid such (loci: hies should go forth ; and it was in that view he was chiefly induced to express himself. Lord GRENVILLE wished to say a few words. His Noble and Learned Friend could not suppose Jim capable of intending any unlawful discontent in any portion of his Majesty's subjects, least of all the armed portion of them. But if the Noble Lord had entertained the same opinions with himself, would he not have thought it his duty not to sit silent in that House, when law was grossly violated, and griev ous oppression inflicted ? Would he, on full consi deration of the subject, have forborne to stand for ' ward in that House ? He (Lord Grenville) had no title for legal opinions; but he endeavoured to under stand the laws of his country. Both the Learned Lords stepped down from the heights of legal know. ledge, and instead of telling how the prerogative stood, had argued merely on examples. His Noble and Learned Friend could not know what he did of the affairs of 1792, and was. utterly mistaken in his 'assertions. On the 10th of August, the King of France was taken to a prison, whence he went to his , grave. In 1788, the Minister acted on the foresight I I Eof danger. Had our Channel fleet been defeated by'' the combined fleets which next year appeared to corer an invasion of England, it was doubtful whether we had the means of preventing the greatest injuries to our resources. Ministers, in 1792, were anxious for the authority of Parliament to force down insurrec tion, and call out the Militia. The Earl of LIVERPOOL said, that after the opinion which his Noble and Learned Friends had delivered as to the legality of the proceedings of Mi. nisters, it wool(' be presumption in him to occupy the time of the House on that point. He would merely observe, that the law had prescribed the time and the occasion on which the Militia should be embOa, died, hat bait' nothing about when it.was to be disc embodied—thus leaving some discretion to the Mi. nisttrs of the Crown, acting of course under respott: sibihty to Parliament. In illustration of this, he re. marked, that the Local Militia Act specified the pe. nod of six weeks after the peace for their dissolution, but with regard to the Regular Militia, the time ei their being disembodied was rather a question of alai cretion, though certainly it never could enter into the heads of Ministers to retain them longer than an en larged view of existing circumstances seemed to re.. quire. On this ground then he rested their defence, 'that on the conclusion of peace with France we were still at. war with America ; that a large British force actually proceeded from the ports of Fiance to Ame rica ; and that though peace with France was signed, a great variety of interests still remained to be ad. justed at the Congress, *which required the presence of a livitish force on the Continent of Europe. Us*, Oar all the circumstances, and with the utmost desire, Ito disembody the Militia, Ministers had thought it best to proceed 'by degrees. Accordingly, during the recess, same additional, regiments were alissushisii died, others were in 3 course of being disembodiedaeletit all would actually be so, as circumstances permitted t The House Quit divided, when there alipearcduit-i' Ageing the Address, 27—Folic 12-46)orit7r Ui. —Adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS. • • Petitions wae presened from Stafford, Loughborough, Chip ' penham and Evesham, against the Property Taw. Mr. PRI [-LIE presented a Petition front the County of Tip perary, raying for an Alteration In the Corn lows. Mr.HORS I* moved for leave to bring in a MU to extend the Act which allowed the Magittrates at the Quarter Sessions to give an allowance not-exc. eding Fifty Pomade per Annum to the Chaplains officiating at the County Gauls. This Act, limit log the allowance to £5O, was passed to long as forty-Wee years ago; and since that time even £5 of that allowance had been taken away from them in the shape of Property 'rat. He therefore moved for leave to bring in a lOU to enable the Magis trates to increase the alltiwatice. Mr. DAVIE:i GIDDY a.keil, whether this Bill was to be con fi to the County Gaols, ur whether it would extend to Houses of Correction? Mr. I witsT said that it was confined - to County Gaols. Leave wets then given to bring in the Bill. it was afterwards brought up and read a first time. Oidered to be read a second time on Friday se/might. Captain RENNET brought In his 13;11 for the abolition of Gaol Fees, which was trail a first time. After a few words from Sir Wm. Cu It rrs, It was ordered to be read a second time on Wednesday next. REMOVAL OF THE l'Or OFFICE. The Sheriffs of the City of London brought up a Petition from the Common Council, praying for leave to present a Petition, (notwithstanding the regular period for presenting private petitions was past,) for the improvement of the great communication with the North Road by St. Martin's le Grand, and by the intended scite of the New Post Office. the Peti tion stated, that the cause of not applying earlier, was, that it was only a few days ago that the Lords of the Treasury had given their consent to those int• provements. On the question that this be agreed to, The SPEAKER observed, that it involved a ques. Lion of public money, and asked, whether it had the consent of the Crown ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER rose to signify that assent ; at the same time, he must vindicate himself from the reports that had been spread, of his having threatened to remove' the Post Office out of the City ; and by this means prevAiling upon them to agree to its being placed in the situa tion which had been mentioned - , near St. Martin's le Grand. The fact was, that from full investigation, he was convinced that the business of the department could ni t be carried on adequately in the present Post Office, and it became necessary to build another. Several other situationi in the City had been pointed out, but all of them had been found more or less in convenient. The situation pointed out wi,s the most convenient for a Post Office that could be found within the City of London. Mr. BARING thought, that, independent of the accommodation to be given from the Post Office being placed in one situation rather than another, the House should take into its consideration the great public expense . to be incurred by the proposed plan ; they should also consider the operation that the Bill sought for would have on private property, as it im. mediately went to take down and destroy the pro perty of two or three hundred individuals. When such interests were at stake, he did not see why the City of London should be permitted to present its petition alter the usual time for receiving titivate pe. titions. He believed, that the excuse alleged in the ,petition was false, and that it was not within a feW Clays only that they could get the consent of the Lords of the Treasury. The City of London, when left to iritelf, rejected this extravagant plan. Since that time, however, a threat had been held out to them, that if they did not sanction it, Government would remove the Post Office to the West End of the Town. He believed that the Post -masters, and even Ministers, had been intriguing with the leading men in the City to get their sanction to this measure. The Chancellor of the Exchequer well knew the ob jections of the merchants of London to the proposed removal of the Post Office. Independent, however, of the accommodation, there was this great objection to the new plan, that it would be Word to cost the country no less than atBoo,ooo, which was an expen diture, that, in the present financi a l state of the coun try, he thought the House would not be disposed to sanction. Sir %V. CURTIS said, that if it was absolutely necessary to have a new Post-office, he did not care much whether it cost £BOO,OOO or sEsJo,ooo—(Hear, hear, and a laugh from the opposition benches.)—As to himself in particular, them were but sew men in the City that would fuel more personal convenience than himself in the Post-office remaining where it .vas. . He should, however, support the proposed re moval, for the purpose of general accommodations Mr. GRENFELL thought that the convenience of other people should be attended to as well as the convenience of those alio lived in the immediate neighbourhood of Lombard-street. He believed that a very great proportion of the merchants of London lived west of Lombard street. The accommodation of the tradesmen and of men who, like themselves, lived at the west-end of the town, should also be considered. Mr. GORDON said that lie 'Ad heard no answer, to the statement that the expence of this new Post office would be reBoo,ooo. He wished every possible accommodation to the merchants, but be did not think it reasonable that it should be purchased at that price front the public purse. Mr. PONSONBY . wished that there had been a specific plan before the House with, an estimate of the expence. He was persuaded that the finances of the country would not afford an expenditure any thing nearly so great as was proposed fur this build ing. He did not think that the public ought to pay largely for the accommodation of any individuals either at the east or west end of the town. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought the expence of building the new .Post-office could not fairly be discussed now, when the only question was about allowing the city of London to present a petition. As to the plan that was proposed he conceived it to be the most economical that could be adopted, and that it would come cheaper than re. bqilding the present Postaillice. Mr. H. SUMNER was convinced, that at a much less expence than was proposed for this new building, the present Post-office might be made sufficient for all purposes. It now stood on 32,(th) feet of ground, but 16,000 more could be purchased immediately ad. joining. The new scite that was spoken oh, ..ticr de ducting the space for the mail coaches, would be only 53,000 feet, which would giVe an advantage of Mil 41100 feei - in room to what *iikht be had to the ite ese4t situation. Thv purchase stootid log the new Piet-office would, according to the retetre under the Property Tax, be 0280,000. But as those returns were always fallacious, he might well add one half, and state the purchase of the ground to be four hundred thousand pounds. To tlis was to be adde; the purchase of what was called good will, which occupiers of houses set what value they pleaszli, ihd which juries of men -circumstanced in the sa.;.c way always gave a very liberal aliuwance for, and which often ainuistited to more than the property itself. Now, reckoning in the same way from Om rettuus under the Property 'fax, the purchase ia what would be wanting in the immediate nelg! hour • hood of the present Post-olice, would be oa.y 05an1.). The slifference of cne hundred thouseej guineas and four, in the purchase of the mere gretetd for building, was a most serious object. In addi:iun to that. any alterati.,ns in Lombard-street would pre. bably be done with simpliciti; as they could not he viewed !rem any distance. In the now projected building, it would not be too much to compute, lila thirty or forty thousand pounds would be spent 0 1 ornament. It was Said that a part of this erp.:..e would be provided by the City, out of the Of Fund; that WAS, in ether words, out of the ;ex upon coals, which every one in the neighbourhood of the metropolis must pay. ' He.thought it hard that the expence of building this Post-office should be thrown on the districts iinmediately adjoining the metropolis, when those that were at a distance had full as much benefit by the establishment. Sir JAMES SHAW said, that the.city ofLoncion had but a small interest in the question, t xcept t:: at they naturally felt interested for the improvement of their capital. Towards the expense of a new and elegant street, communicating with the north road, they offered to contribute one-third, which was a!Jout £lOO,OOO. Although the expense might tome out of the Orphans' Fund, yet, it should be recollected, that the city of London paid .IC11,5(.1) annually out of their kiosk to the Orphans' Fund. Mr. SUMNER thought it right to apprize the house of the origin of this Orphans' Fund. It was when the city of London was indebted to the Or phan Establishment in the sum of re 750,000, and declared itself utterly unable to pay, that they applied to Parliament in the reign of King William, and in order to pay the interest (the re-payment of the prin cipal being quite out of the question), it WAS settled that they should give £11,500 cut of their yearly funds, and that the tax upon coals should be applied fur tlie remainder. Hettelleved that the House would be absolutely ashamed of the ail-I:cation I f this Or phans' Fund, if their attention was ealhel seriousiy the 'object. .iii JAMES SHAW contended that Oleic nad keen no abuse in the application of the Fund by the City of London. He appealed to the report of the Com mittee of which that gentleman himself was Chairman. Mr. SUMNER explained. He had not said that the City of London had been guilty of abuse in the Application of this money, but he had said that Par liament. would be ashamed of the application uf it, if their attention was called to it. He believed that no funds had been misapplied by the City from the time that Parliament directed the application. Mr. BANKS wit fsr receiving the petition, but wished to guard himself hom being supposed to ap prove the 'plan. He thought that sufficient additions might he made to the present Post-office. The House then divided on the receiving the Peti thin—Ayes 71— Noes 24.—Majority 47. The petition was then presented at the bar by Mr. Sheriff Reay, and on the motion of Sir WILLIAM CURTIS, read and referred to a Committee. Some conversation then took place on the propriety of producing not only the estimate and plans of he new Post-Office, but likewise of the expense -attend ing the plan of rendering the present establishment sufficiently commodious. Mr. BARING suggested the propriety of procu. ring a report from the Surveyor-General, rather than the Surveyor of the Post-Office, who, he had some reason to believe, was at the bottom of the whole job. The brother of that gentleman was understood to pos sess a large property in the vicinity of the intended solar of the new building. Two papers were then presented at the bar, viz. a return of the gross number and amount of charitable donations made in the office of the Clerk of the Peace for the county of Middlesex; and a return from the Piothonotaries of the Court of Common Pleas, of the number of processes of bail for debt under ar2o. for the years 1812, IS, and 14, pursuant to the order the House. BANE RESTRICTION. Mr. PONSONBY rose to request of a Noble Friend behind him (Lord A. Hamilton) to defer his motion for a select committee horn to-morrow to a future day, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer per severed in bringing on his motion for cintinuing the restriction on that Jay. It was desirable, he thought. that the provisions of the Right Honourable Gentle man's Bill should be before the House previous to their going into the consideration of the measure which his Noble Friend had it in contemplation to propose. Lord ARCHIBALD HAMILTON felt no re luctance in acquiescing in his Right Hon. Friend's suggestion ; his only difficulty was as Co the selection ofd proper day. He was not aware of the degrce of rapidity with which it might be the intention of the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer to press forward his measure ; but provided his motion might take the precedence of other business, he would name to-morrow se'nnight for submitting it to the House. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER having stated that he had uo objection, the motion was fixed for that day. EMBASSY TO LISBON. Mr. WHITBREAD rose to inquire, whether the Right Hon. Gentleman bad ascertained the accuracy, or otherwise, oldie rumour he (Mr. Whitbread) had 'alluded to on a former day ; and whether there was any intention of sending out a Secretary of Legation to Lisbon, as well as a Secretary of Embassy The CHANCELLOR of use EXCHEQUER said, that when the Honourable Gentleman firs asked his questions upon the subject. he thought that he w really had discovered s ome n e w an d unusua l on't ment that was in agitation. Upon inquiry, however, he could now state, that nu new appointment was contemplated. A Secretary of Embassy was attached to that Embassy, aiwas du; case in al e l . othcrs ; it 0 1 e.- individual who low held i‘..itturned. wlich Pe 4111