Star. — London, England, 1815-04-22 00:00:00

‘lbb. be improper in me to bring the document before Par liament in the unratified 'shape in which it is, and when it is not binding on those Powers who are the parties to it. This would be taking the sense of Parliament on a step which could not come properly before it in relief of our own responsibility. His Majesty's Ministers, however , ta ke a more correct and constitutional lir.e. We have obtained the sanc tion of Patliament for the adoption of precautionary measures, but no sanction for any other measures ; Ira for these we rest on our own responsibility. But it w.iulti he allowed that it is • always competent to the Ministe: - 5 of the Crown to advise war if they think preper, sulsiect to their own discretion and re sponsibility. His Majesty's Ministers would be act in a most ntwoustitutional, and not may in an 1:1 , c nis.itntional, ht..: pus;l:anintotts manner, it they ta:,lcavoured to extort from Parliament in an inipc:- I, et state o! iaiotrnatitv, :t sanction for those mea. s ,, !es sv: , ich they might ultimately adopt. DiB it any 1 - 10.itiut able V.i-mber conceives that advice ought to b.. 2 given to the Crown, not to act in a manner which conceives is ;ikely to compronliic tl., ::•.utntry, and lead to mea,ures i;ijorions to our own interest and the general interest of Europe, it is certainly comp e. tent to such Hon , urable Gentleman to raise the ques tion in the House and to bring it under discussion. Pte it is not competent to his Majesty's Ministers to take the initiative of bringing it before Parliament, and taking the sense of Parliament on imperfect in'ormation. Mr. WHITBREAD—The Noble Lord has used a nee" word, which he seems to have borrowed from C. ngress ; for I do not recollect to have ever heard the 'eond initiative made use of in this House befere. If he will not take the initiative, as he is pleased to call it, in, this measure, in the choke of difficulties to which we are reduced from that circumstance, knowing, as we do, the deep plunge made by his Ilejesty's Government towards war, without the question being regularly before it, the House must pause before it grants any further supply for what was • called defensive preparations, when it knows that the Government will convert those measures of defence into measures of offence—and into a war which will be prosecuted not only in the most clis graceful, but the most hopeless manner. My duty calls on me to propose an adjournment of the House, till th•• Noble Lord is able to come before us with the terms et this Treaty ; and I hope Parliament will not he guilty of such indiscretion. as to suffer th•• Nol • feed •o proceed until he has plunged the coentry into a situation without remedy—when he we'', come before us with the whole weight of his re. sponsibiley, and which responsibirhy, I hope, the H o use will make Lint fecl is not a mere Perliementary term —(l-!ear, hear), —but a wt rd of real weight; and that after talking of it, and vapourlifg about it f'r years, the time is now come when we shall turn the name into the thing, and make him fed what it reetiy is. Uieler the r circurnst inces, my proper cent se is, in a coe tut:on al and P arlie men tary meneer, to 10 -event the Supplies from being granted, ti t know the situation in which the country is. Lard CASTLE REAG H—Tne Honourable Gen. tit'at,lll never find inc disposed to shrink from any respoeseaeity which I have ineerred. With respect ro the course of the Honourable Member, I must say tl.et it certainly does not consist in arming the Exe. emire Gov-r. ment with those powers which are ne ee;seee for it in the present arduous situation of af fe'.es. If the Honourable Gentler:tan is no: disposed to "eoircur in those measures which his Majesty's Go veertmoit have thought advisable in the present situa tien or the country, it is not on the subject of Supp:y Ceti he ought to raise the question—he ought to raise it. on its own merito 7 (lLer, hear, frran the Alit:Lae. vial tide.) —It the Honourable Gentleman is deter mined to persist in this cow se, it is a proof that he s rinks from the merits of the question—(Hear, hear, t; .n the ofm:iii3n.) repeat it again— it is a proof of his shrieking freen the merits of the question . weile I, on the contrary, to-night have afforded him eery lecility for bringing the question forward in a re groat mat - .ter. Every person must be convinced th it the Treaty cannot be laid before the House in its ee e sent state by his Majesty's Ministers, without their 7kr:%:lng i t s a mariner inconsistent with the duty which tee e. we to their country ; and I consider, therefore, the reeesure which the Honourable Gentleman has c: 'seen to pursue, with the view of obstructing his, • ....I's Government, as only granting with a bad wee. - what must at last be granted, and tendering Viet sttesigth which the House have committed to the uradequete ti its object. If the Honourable Gyalernan is sincere in the intention which he has an 'lettuce-1 of impeaching me, and if he wishes at the seine time to strengthen the Executive, let him bring the question forward on its own merits; but let 'bin) riot make this a pretext for weekenipg the arms of the Executive Government in the arduous crisis in which the country is at present placed— (Loud cheer tivi. on the Miaisterial tide of Me HoFse.) Mr. WHITBREAP—Wireo I granted the sup- Ii ;es I understood from the Noble Lord that there wa, still an alternative left ; and though I told some tit 'My friends neer me that they would soon very likely and themselves duped, still I had the autho rity of the N . .ble Lord and the Chancellor of the El chequer that there was an alternative of peace or esefi. But now I learn that there is no longer an alternative ; and that if I gave them any further sup plies, it cannot be for defence but for offence, and in a reuse the most desperate and hopeless. To the Ministers who could make this country a party to such a Treaty, even after a vote for strengthening the h Ands of Government—after what I hear of then condect, 1 can no longer, coosistattly With my duty, eatto the supplies—Viral . , hear.) The Noble Lord has talked of the facility which he has givep us. — 'What facility has he given us ? The allowing us to debate on a Treaty which he sa ys is imperfectly before us. Will the Noble Lord tell us the nature of the Treaty r He has old us already thit the one we heee seen is substantially inaccurate —send thus we 61)411 go to a discOssion, trusting to be informed, in the course cif . the delerte, what is the difference be-. tween the Treaty Which we have seen, ;ad the real one. And this is what he calls affording us facility He does me the additional favour to tell me how I ought to cOndUct myself as a Member of Parliament. The po'hlic are better judges of my conduct than I beit'sure I am, whatever their Opinion may be, I will tiot go to tire Noble . Lord for advice ; ' pee l these wounds, and convinced as I an 2, thick the line ,4t l , ..t. 3 1 st J ' r a 1 • of conitxt which I am pursulog is oat) that is cattsti-' tutional and proper,. and the only one which can be followed with interest or advantage to the country, 1 shall certainly persist in it, though the one which the Noble Lord has pointed out would no doubt be more advantageous to himself ; and when the Noble Lord pointed out the line of conduct which he con ceived proper for me, I believe he rather expressed his own opinion than the course which the country would expect or wish me to follow. Lord CASTLEREAGH—Whenever the Hon. Gentleman• thinks he has sufficient grounds for insti tuting a motion for censure of me, I believe this is a duty which he will not fail to discharge; and so long as I see no notice to that purpose entered on the hook, I shall feel satisfied that there is no ground in the Hon. Gentleman's mind to warrant him in such a course. Will the House listen to the Hon. Gentleman's propoAll for withhol ling the Supplies and weakening the hands of Government, on grounds which the Him. Member will ifot bring forward on the it own merits ? Sir JOHN NEWPORT—I !'st.l a right when I dissented tiom my Hon. Friend ( Mr. Whitbread) no a late - occasion, to consider that there was still an al ternative left=that war was nut then determined on ; and I now find nut that I am duped by the Noble Lord—(Hear, hear,) —mid that to the Noble Lord 1 ought not to have given credence, for the question which L: told me was pending, was actually deter mined. 'Me Noble Lord tells us now that the Treaty with some substantial inaccuracies, is correct. He gives us in his usual way an answer, and a qualified answer, so as to put it out of our power even to fix any precise opinion on him. But that night the No ble Lord told us expressly that there was no decision, and that when the decision was already taken. He now said that we ought not to refuse the supplies which were given for an alternative, but which alter native did not exist. I cannot very well conceive what the Noble Lord means by using the words not shrinking from responsibility, because he is certainly shrinking from responsibility if he does not give in this document. When will the Noble 'Lord give it to us ? When it will be too late Or us to save the country from destruction—from a renewal of a war which has sunk our finances to the state in which they now ate, which has ground to the dust every class of the community. Then the Noble Lord will give it when it is tooiate. As to the boasted respon sibility of the Noble Lord at such a period, it would 'be nothing worth. What compensation would it be then to the country. evert if we were to follow the N ible Lord to the block ? Before war is deg mined on the House ought to have an opportunity of inter posing their advice. The course of my I 7 •%itourable Friend is regular and constitutional. W:i ~• Parlia ment has not sufficient documents to coal:- 't to form a judgioent, it is the oily legal method preventing an abuse of power. When one sees Moist: mating in a double sense, with the public—wheo we see our salves on the point of a renewal of t' calamities v.Thich Were brought on us by the war tit MO, and involved again by the very same acts which were ti.e.n practised ; a war which has reduced every man's iaconie to a third of its value, and theft we arc told of the responsibility of Miniitev, it is impossible to pre serve our tempers. Sir, I scorn suet a r e sponsibility —(H.ar, hoer.) My Honourable 1.'7-lend (Mr. Whit bread) whom the Nobie Lord !:.is thought fit to ad vise, sat in this House . ktinitely longer than the Noble Lord iiiwself, an,l has done the duty of lie country, unpaid, unsalaried and unstipended, and the love and gratitude of his country will follow him —(Hear, hear, hear.) Lord C A STLE EA G H.--A s to the eulogy rouounced by the Right Hon. Baronet on his friend,. it is one in which I am by no means disposed to con cur. The Right Hon. Baronet has proceeded in a manner which is certainly calculated to be pair ul to the feelings of the person to whom he is oppose.l. 1 conceive that it is not incor."stent to strengthen the hands of the Crown, and at the same time give it good advice. If there is an impression on tie mind of any Hon. Member, that a certain course .s io the contemplation of his Majesty's Ministers, it is opal t him to move the House to give advice to the Crown on the subject ; and, therefore, to obstruct the sup- 1 plies r:Alter than offer advice to the Crown, is not in any sense necessary. With respect to the line of conduct which his Majesty's Ministers have pursued, I deny peremptorily that there has been any delusion whatever. (Laugh fiom the Opposition.) I should have trespassed in the line of duty which I ought to have pursued had I thrown myself then on the House, and said that war was either taken or not taken. I gave no opinion to the House on the probability of either peace or war. I merely stated that we were placed in such a case of exigency as ought to induce as to strengthko the hands of Government for either war or peace, and respecting which Ministers would afterwards come to Parliament. The Right Hon. Baronet says that there was then no alternative.— What the probability of war was, I left to the House to collect. I said that the principle on which his Ma jesty's Ministers placed the general system of war or peace, would be mainly influenced by the general feeling . of the powers with whom we act—and how ever highly the Right Hon. Baronet may feel him self warrapted in concluding from the document that there is no alternative, we ought not to conclude that an instrument adopted under one course of circum stances, is to be conclusive under circumstances of a -different desciiption. Mr. WHITBREAD.—I wish to say one word .more. A single ray oflight has broken in upon us .from the speech of the Noble Lord. The Noble Lord etas said, that when he sees no notice on the book, he shall always conclude that I have no grounds for :censure. I may have sufficient grounds for censure, .'iut I have also sufficient experience of Parliament to know what the influence of. the Crown is.-,-The Noble Lord knew well enough what the Crown had ,been to him—the'country would, have to feel what he had been to the Crown. (Hear, hear, hear.) Mr. METHUEN believed die Noble Lord posies. sed the confidence 'of the country, which remained yet unshaken.' He hid his entire confidence. . Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH—I cannot follow the Honourable Gentleman who spoke last, in 'be stowing 'my approbation alike under any circuits stances, without any exception, and without any guard—Wear, Aser.)!—Here heig to be understood as differing from him. I agree in the poSition that alt he iris and hands should be united on an occasion like the present; but then .our hearts and hqnsia ought to be pitied by reason and °once:epee. Tile ; h om e the Noble Lord is, that the mode pro by him has a tendency to destroy all responsi bility: He begged Ito ask the Noble Lord, if the matter were to be fairly disiussed, whether it would not be much inure desirable that the House should have an opportunity of discussing the Treaty in a correct state The Noble Lord might lay it infer. mally upon the table, as he had done the Papers re garding Genoa and Sweden. The Treaty of Chau mont had also been laid in substance before the House, although i t had not been ratified, and the same purse might now be pursued. This was the fair and only way of meeting the question, unless the, Noble Lord meant to obtain the applause of the House by stratagem. lf, as the Noble Lord had said, the genuine Itteaty had peen so misrepresented, was it not the more necessary that a correct state ment of its contents should be furnished, even to 1 avoid the exple;s'on of unfavourable opinions t not I, warranted by the Treaty itself ? He therefore put it :sincerely Ind respectfully to the Noble Lord, whe. ther, even for his OWI) case, it would not he adviseable to produce an accurate statement of the 411 1 a$tellICe Of ; the Treat y ? • Mr. METHUEN denied that he had given any abstract applause to the conduct of Lord Castlereagh ...in this instance it received his full approbation (Hear, hear.) —He thought that he might fairly ac cuse the other side of the House with giving abstract and systematic opposition to every measure of Go vernment, under whatever circumstances st might be adopted—( Hear, &Ir.) Lord CAS I'LEREAGH observed, that for the reasons he had before stated, he should decline laying the substance of the Treaty before the House, unless a distinct motion were made upon the subject, and then he could state his opinion, and adopt such con duct as he might deem expellent. Lord MILTON begged to know on what day the Treaty in question had been received by Government ? LordCASTLE REAG H answered, that he should be prepared to give every information on a future day. Mr. BENNET inquired whether drat part of the published copy were contained in the authentic do cument, in which the Allies were made to declare that t h ey would bring to justice all such persons as shall have joined, or may hereatier join. the party of Napoleon ?" He wished to know whether that provi sion had been ratified by the British Government ? Lord CASTLEREAGH had no objection to state. that that part was decidedly incoriectsub stantially inaccurate. Lord MILTON asked, whether this Treaty was in the hands of Ministers before'the 7th of April, the day on which the Noble Lord had obtained the Address? Lord CASTLEREAGH replied in the affirma tive, and added, that he was prepared to contend that there was nothing at all inconsistent h:tween the terms of the Address and of the Treaty. Mr. TIERNEY tegretted that the NAle I.mrd had any objection to produce the substance oi the Treaty. 1..!1rtl CASTLEREAGH—I have not stated that I had any objection. • Mr. WHI rBREAD—Doei the NoSle Lord mean to say, that if a motion be now made he wilt produce it ? Lord CASTLEREAGH answered, that he could not undertake to lay It betore the House upon an Mi. mediate motion, if not in courtesy to his Colleagues, whose opinions he wished to receive, but in courtesy also to the Representatives of other Powers, whose interests were alike of acted. Mr. WHITBREAD regretted that the Noble L all had not saved the time of the House by earlier making such a statement. Was he now to under , stand, that it a motion were made on Monday for the substance of the Treaty, it would meet with the corn. pliance of the Noble Lot d ? If so, he would of course move fix it, and then the subject would be fairly and clearly before the House. Lord CASTLEREAGH said that he would enter into no compact. He was surprised that the Hon. Member %twit& :1 long have remained in the dark ; for the whore course of his (Lord Castlereagh's) rea boning was intensial to sew, that at the 'proper time he ailit,uld not it inconsistent with his duty to lay the substance or the Treaty upon the table. AR he would say at present was, that he should be pre• pared on Monday to give the Hon. Gentleman a distinct answer. Mr. WHITBREAD observed, that on Monday he should make the motion, without entering into argument, in order to ascertain'whether the Noble Lord's sense of duty would allow him to produce what was requited, in order that the Hotte should not be plunged into a discussion that might be dis advantageous to the country.. He should make the motion before the Committee of Supply. Mr. PONSONBY alluded to the case of Sweden, where the Noble Lord had agreed to produce the substance of unratified treaties. He wished to know distinctly, whether, on Monday, the Noble Lord would consent to produce the substance of the Treaty ? He protested against• being compelled to discuss the merits of this Treaty or Coavention, without precise information upon its nature. Lord CASTLEREAGH congratulated the House lon the pacific tone that had been recently assumed by the other side of the House, and that opinions appa rently so hostile had been reconciled in a manner so satisfactory—( Hear, and laughter.) He had never doubted-that it was consistent with the practice of the House to present the substance of treaties ; it might be extremely detrimental were it otherwise. All he would say at present was, that on Monday he would give an answer ; and he perfectly concurred in the impropriety of premature discussion. What he had argued in the finer instance was, that if the Honour able Member ( Nth. Whitbread) wished to give advice to the Crown, he could do it as regularly upon the published Treaty as upon the authentic document. Mr. WHITBREAD observed, that as the Noble Lord had been the Demon, or God of the Storm, now he was metamorphosed into the Genius, or Hal cyon of the Calm. From what the Noble Lord had at first said, no man could have anticipated what had recently fallen from his • lips. Now he was perfectly ready to grant every thing that was required —(No, no, front Lord Castlereagh.) —Yes, he would grant alt that was • wanted—the• substance of the Treaty— (No, ao.)—Woll, then, the fact would be known on Monday, and Mr. Whitbread had no disposition to raise a new storm by further contention. f.nril CASTLE RE AGI-I—f cannot sec that t;ierp is any matter of difference between us now. The' Honourable Member does not, however, quite an prove of my conduct, and I am net sorry fair it, cause there is nothing that I am so much afraid 0f as his praise. Mr. 'WHITBREAD—The fear expressed I , y tle Noble Lord is quite as uniuunded as my praise ik : ot.:4 li:tve been if I had ever bestowed it ; for the (act is. tb:tt he never receivM a scintillas ofiipplaiise from ... . _ _ me dui ing the whole course of his political The question was then rt, and it was ordered teat the I louse at it;; I ising should adjimrn till Monday. PROPERTY TAX. The CH4NCELI.OIt of t.!!e EXCI - 11'.(;;TEit brought in the New Property Tax Bill. ua t i, question that it be Lead a first time, Mr. J. I'. ditANT s.id. lie rppr. measure on the second and rif;t c. . It . sent occasion, after what ha .1 just p s.yeit io Mr. G RENFELI, explained Ca: vote he g.eve the minority on tit tormer was oi.ly i n . tended to prodirc.: tl.e delay of a to: triii;la plor, Le d by Mr. Brand. The events tl:.tt had recently red induced him to think that such a measure wa , :. necessary, limier two or flit - cc modifications :—l. That the Property Tax should be rendered mere :.anal, by lessening the burden upon persims velvis e incomes were from 2 to ie."o(a yeir. `' TI a comes derived from trade or profess;ons s!a,nd n( , t pay in the same proportion as incomes dutiv, t trim tired property. `. l . That some regulat'otts introduced ;o diminish the inquisitorial powers iet , Commissioners on aq.lits of '1 'n in 4.iiiii-rsetopi.ice. Mr. ELLIS supported the Bill, hut reconmictided that a Committee should be appointed to consid.l.,; the fit misdifications. Mr. CORDON was disposed, strenuously, to cp. pose the Bill, andi called the recollection of men to the assertion of the Chancellor of the quer, that he would allow of no modifications. Sir JOIN NEWPORT declared his tultntvn rf dividing the Flluse upon tl:e first reading, in hu, • sitanee of his original deterininaticn. Mr. pEN.SON bore testimony to the change (.f ientimc.it in Liverpool in favour of the Property T. It gave Ministers 'no greater power, because taxes to the same amount would have been raised by othrr Bills, if not by that now lnfore the House. Mr. C. WYNNE regretted the expend:tnre to which we were exposed, but thought no other mea• sure calculated to meet the difficulty. _ _ Mr. BARN:; did not admit that any change had taken pl ice in the public opi . nion on this Bill sitici last year, but l he was willing to allow that it nigl.t he prudent to adopt it for one year-Ist. Because iho machinery was already prepared : —2d. Because it would enable Government to act with Ow: vie/ n and decision winch might put speedy eo.l to a new war. lie wished the tax to be cryuitoted ;:a its tre , ent sitape, rather than to allow the intr.lduction ct rtn.fi• tic.ttao.:s that might lead to making it reiinar. n.. Mr. PONSON BY did not led Liw clt b0....:111 tr. vote for the Property Tar, because he had agreed to the Address of the 7th April. He i•dici:lcd the :.let of getting rid of the tax at the en.: .d the year. Ail experience skewed, particularly the last Atneric.:r. war, that nothing was so easy as to begin, anu ter things s difficult as to terminate a war. It was idle to suppose that this new war, in which we were about to be involved, would soon be terminated. !dr. Alderman ATKINS farther enforced the ne. cessity of modifications, withota diminishing the amount of the Tax. Mr. W. SMITH recommended a Committee. He thought it mucli more probable that the House was saddling the country with the Property Fax for ever, than that it would be withdrawn in a year. He referred to the commencement of the ed American war, which it was said would be ended in a week or a fortnight, to prove the folly of supposing that the war now about to be commenced would he ended in a year, especially when the means which France pos- sessed were so important, if a calculation were made only of the prisoners returned. • The House divided, when the numbers were—For the Bill being read a first time, 78.—Against it, 17. The Bill was then read a first, and 44.1ered to be read a second time on Monday. The second reading of the Alien Bill was then moved, and the House was cleared for a division, which, however, did not take read a second time. place.—The 13:1 1 was • During the esclusion of strangers, Sir S. !sine:Yin moved fc.r an AccoUnt of the Gross and Net Produce of the Property Tax, distingui-hing the Districts and Classes, for thefive years ending the sth kora, ISIS The • CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved the previous question. Mr. HUSKISSON opposed the motion, on the ground that as much of the information as was useful was before the House. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that if the motion were put into another slive, he should have no objection to the information being laid before the Hoose. Sir JOHN NEWPORT said, that to render that information of any use; it would be necessAry that the second reading of the Bill should be postpoiled; otherwise no one but official persons. could see tnat information before the House was called on to de cide on the second reading. • He . was .ot wedded to the particular form of his motion, and snould be will ing to agree to any alteration to meet the wishes et the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Mr. GORDON thought the Administration Ades to be accused of precipitation in the progress ut the Property I'itx Bill ; and it could not fail to excite an idea in 01 country that the Bill was precipitated 11001 the apprehension that the public voice would he loudly raised against it. The Honourable Mem:w's who had approved of the Bill, under the idea that some modifications would be admitted, might see that no such; modifications would be admitted, as the in formation n which alone they could be fonaded, would, on account ot the precipitation with which the Bill was hurried on, come too late to be of use. After a few o4servarions between Mr. lit. aKissoN. Mr. V. FITZGMALIIII, Mr. H. MARTIN, and Sir NEWPO2T, the ir:viotts question was withdrawn, 41,1 the motion was agreed to for—" A return of the Gross and Net Assessment of the Property Tax for the five years ending April 5, 1815, distinguisliing the classe .". Mr. GORDON asked, whether after all that had 1 been said the Chauce:loi of the Xltheeitier would . - rt " ti:c 4'2,7,1 tics Ca :11( by an