Star. — London, England, 1827-03-07 00:00:00

itai_ frosid again be adeatmed—they would hereafter , they had been told up on this occasion, that !,.lu7 t oo o late to Make it, stand, and that having , f a r, it was incumbent u p on them to f:ther—(Lod cheerlng). If he were asked what be pro posed, his only answer would be that he was not a c omber of his Ma,jetty's Government--(Loud cheers). l e d that it would be useless and mischievous in him tstempt any answer to the question. But when he it t ; as ked to make concessions, he would in reply de. wad smoky, because he felt it his duty to take care ikst concession and security should keep an equal pace ( g e a r , bear). He would repeat t hat u p on the basis J a mitate security he was ready to concur in conces acu, but they must be such securities as would: effec olgy guarantee the permanency of the Protestant ova in her unimpaired rights and dignity. He had I sia to apologise to the House for having drawn so t o open its indulgence, but h had spoken his sin 'cre a n d consc ientious opinions. It was not, unlikely lad be might be followed by his Right Hon. Friend, AttornerGentral for Ireland. and if it was possible l i my man to suggest the means of reconciling con imiots to the Catholics with the security of the Pro {goat Church, he knew no one better qualified than yin flight Hon. Friend. He knew that, widely as he dined from his Right Hon. Friend, he should have froth him full credit for infcerity..CThe Right Hon. Greildnan then sat down amidst loud cheering from c eerypiiit i cf the Home.] Mr. PLUNKETT listened in vain to the eloquent oscli of hie Right Hon. Friend, in order to learn the owe object which he had view; for at one time he mooted the present state of Ireland as much as him ofrat another be expected, in his zeal against priestly mchinations, to hear him introduce Guy Faux and his l it tera, and the whole bugbear imagery of the Gen poder Plot.--(Laughter.)—His Hight Hon. Friend w i s h e d fur securities not more than he did, but these securities mast be sought after; therefore the House should agree to the Honourable Baronet's Resolutions. The Bill of 181$, and 1822, and 1825, contained cline securities ; and if he (Mr, Plunkett) thought the we cession of the Catholic Claims tended to injure tiefistablished Chutch, no man would more zealously oppose them. He was surprised to hear Mr. l Pitt's same cited by the opponents of the measure, as one (*their side; for if there were any principle of that great man's political Creed undoubtable, it was his advocacy of the Catholic Claims. It was therefore, a not audacious Forgery in the so called Pitt Club, who net to celebrate the principles of exclusiveness and illiberality, and not for the large minded purposes of Mr. Pitt, to assume his name, and rob his fame of its characteristics. A Nuble Lord (Eldon) had said, that be doubted if Mr. Pitt had been able to devise securities against admitting the Catholics to power ; and why, because Mr. Pitt never mentioned them to him; in fact, never was dolt and idiot enough to mention them to the man who would have placed every possible obstacle in their way. Mr. Pitt held out Emancipation as the boon of the Union of inland and England, declaring that rilk eaprejudiced English Parliament would grant that which the local legislature would be too biassed to grant. How did the question stand now? Why. the Irish Members were more than two to one in its favour, and the only obstacles lay in the prejudices of the English people, These prejudices were daily dirnioishiug, The No Popery' cry had failed at the late election, and the cause of truth and justice was making daily convene. His Right Hon. Friend's only ovosition to Emanci pation lay in the absence of sufficient security ; 'fhb* L'rd Liverpool declared, that if his other objecsi were surmounted, he would ask no other security thus oath of allegiance. The cry of security was an old .; it was made even by Swift, against the admissios the Presbyterians to civil power; alleging that the, would be the subversion of the Established Church.' -The Presbyterians were wisely admitted to a full participation of he blessings of the Constitution, and because its firmest supporters. So it would be with the Catholics, who, in the days of the Ed wards, and Richards, and Henrys, denied the tem poral, while they admitted the spiritual, supremacy of Pope. As early as the fifth of Stisabeth, the oath allegiance was considered sufficient, and the oath of supremacy (the Ist of the same Queen) dispensed with ; - 4 so down to the 30th Charles 11. The 33d of George . also held the oath of allegiance to be sufficient for as parties who were first sworn that they were Roman Catholics, thereby denying the supremacy. and then took oath of allegiance. From which it follows, that all dangers dreaded by his Right Honourable Friend in existence at the present moment. In the year ;65, on the cession of Quebec to England, the Ca-, tholic inhabitants were dispensed with taking more than the oath of supremacy. What was the consequence ? I that of all the Protestant colonies in America, not one remained faithful to the Crown, while Catholic Canada stood faithful, and retrained so to the present boas. The, Treaty of Limerick secured the privileges of thefts's* , Catholics, as they existed in the time of Charles IL that time Catholics sat in Parliansent,lol voting /*new speaker in the time of James L and the Acts fsth (the lit did) of Elizabeth, and the 30th Charles /Loeser were in force in Ireland. The Treaty of Li merick was violated, and all the evils of Ireland were the necessary consequence. But a- spirit was abroad among the Irish people, which could not be longe► resisted—a spirit prevalent among all classes, ages, and saes; not for a fanciful right, but of obtaining, every fair and manly means, their liberation from reir present proscribed condition. The Catholic Clergy very properly assisted their friends at the late elation ; their interference was neither irreligious nor immoral, and as a body they were most exem plary. The people of Ireland will no longer sub mit to be deluded by empty sophistry; they contain the elements of the strength or the weakness of the state. and as their indignation at their degraded condition partook of the ire leonine vincuiene recusatdium ' the Poet, it behove the House to pause ere it turned own energies against themselves, and converted the .merit of the State into its poison. To talk of curing riancipation by converting, was the opinion of a fool •it was beneath even ridicule; and, anxious as he was for the diffusion of light and knowledge. he would oh. lest to them in tato, If made a convert for proselytism. Ne lorevrarned the House of what the 445. freeholders Would dot and was laughed at for his pains. He now forewarned them that rebellion could only be restrained by the calumniated influence of the Catholic Clergy over the minds of their flocks ; and that the forty shilling freeholders would do more, if their rights awe disregarded by Parliament. They were combus- 1 tible. Would the House apply the torch and involve the empire in ruin? The Protestant feeling was equally wrong oa the ether side, as the tone of some Hon.lklem bort Ott fled, so that something most be done to save y i of the taprej as which a• How n. Mem% q the 04 people od The re t►e ea His! patio L•rd . were the et ooe; of the h act to e. —Thr ch panic ly and 1 Id with e . ward! • poral, to the en of alli ia sure et and si in 111. a )1 tae p d• Cathy of the o in the 41 11 , are it of 1763, if tholit n• than b. that !a tema bo stood :h rim Id Cath • Intl • fora ▪ if 5i be • H. met • the A aac ▪ resit bf and i 1 ttte'u Clet der bt nor plat td mit the the VAN of tl a its o elm E n. yt for t lect b 1 Ne Mo t to tote • by a ore It hb' the 0 atm hot Ireland and England from destruction. The remedy for all was the admission of the Catholics to a just share of the British Constitution ; and this remedy had better come is time, ere its .densandants, in• stead of being the prop and support of Great Britain in her continental wars and trantactions, should become her worst enemy, and greatest weakness. Mr. Secretary PEEL, then rose, but the opening of his speech was frequently inaudible. He spoke of the painful nature of the duty he was called upon to per form, in reference to the necessity under which it placed him, in differing in this only instance from his col leagues. But as long as he remained unconvinced of the error of his opinions, be would stand up and main tain them ; he would not shrink from that deity, though it separated him from his colleagues, and from the majorities of the House. He had hoped to be relieved from the necessity of referring to any thing of a personal nature to himself ; and the only point upon which be should • feel called upon to do so, was that which related to the Treaty of Limerick. When this question, was before the House in the year 1825, be bad said that if he could be satisfied that any privileges were withholden from the Roman Ca tholics, for which, by the Treaty of Limerick, they had given any valuable consideration, his judgment would be materially influenced by the proof of such a fact. But having looked with the greatest attention at this part of the subject, be was bound to say that he was not satisfied of the truth of that assertion, but en the contrary was more and more convinced thatreliet from political disabilities , was not contemplated • by the Treaty of Limerick. The terms of the article upon which so much stress had been laid were, that the I Roman Catholics should be guaranteed in their tell gious privilege., and in she exercise of their religious worship without disturbance. This was argued to ex tend to political privileges; but he asserted that all the swifters of the age, Lord Clarendon among the rest, defined the terms as being limited to the privileges con ' netted with the profession and practice of the Roman Catholic religion. Besides this, he had the words of King William himself, one of the parties to the Treaty, written whhin a month after the capitulation. In a letter then written by King William, he declared his willingness that they should be protected in the undis turbed exercise of their religion, but that he 'would not consent to their enjoying political privileges. The con duct of the Legislature, at the same period, put the question at rest. The capitilation of Limerick took place on the Sd of October, 1691, and the•Pwliawient met on the 22d of October following. In that ?arils , meat an Act was passed for applying the oaths of su premacy and allegiance to Roman Catholics, without any question being started as to the Treaty of Limerick. There were discussions upon it, conferences look place between the two Houses, stipulations were inade, but it was Dever once contended that the Act interfered with the Treaty of Limerick. On'rebraary 24, the following year, the ratification of the Treaty was executed, after the Act had passed, excluding Catholics from Parliament and offices of trust and power. If he had been guilty of that baseness which the supporters of this measure now desired to 6s upon him, would that Monarch• bay. resorted 10 such a solemn mockery ? He was now defending the Whip of those dals; and what said the Whig historian, Bur nett, upon the subject? After describing the rittlfica -41 the Treaty, he added, " and some ambiguous 'ire captained its toosejr of the Irish." . thsilee scemetances theo v he thought Its wan It tilt lq it his assent to the motion of the Hon. Baronet, at least upon the ground of the Treaty of Limerick— (Cheers.)—He now came to the general question; and here he must confess that so far was what had been urged by those who supported this motion, from decreasing bit reluctance to grant the general questiop, that it had only increased his distrust, and aggravated all hit objections. When the Honourable Baronet declared these was no difference in the principle which sent a mars to the faggot, and that which inflicted the penalties now existing in this country— and when his Right Honourable Friend the Attor ney-General for Ireland, told bins that if they withheld the same power from any body of /English men, they would rim in arms-,--(Lood cheers)—when be beard these things asserted for the purpose of influencing the decision of that House, he started from them with abhorrence—(Cheerin) And was he to hear the names of Burke and Pitt inv oked to the aid of such abominable doctrines?—(Continued cheering.) Was be to hear his Right Hoe. Friend male suoh a declaration as this,, when a lags body of his fellow subjects in England were actually in the condition supposed ; and when he remembered that his Right Hon. Friend presided over the legal administration of Ireland—(Cheers,) and that, too, under circumstances of agitation ?—(The Right Hon—Gentleman was here interrupted by immense daseriag.)—His astonishment increased beyond his power to express it. Mr. Burke and Mr. Pitt utterly repudiated the doctrine that these claims could ever be demanded as a birthright. Mr. Pitt's words. were these: "These are the grounds upon which this measure can alone be discussed ; for I cannot allow that, under any circumstances, or any situation of affairs, can we enter tain the discussion of the question as a right. I never was one of those who held the term 'Emancipation,' at all applicable to a repeal of the few remaining penal' laws." Thus he not only rejected the doctrines of those Who now supported the measure, but 'even their very name. Mr. Pitt then went on to declare his opinion that it must be in human nature for the Catholics to endeavour to advance the interests of their religion, when time and opportunity offered. This was also his (Mr. Peel's) opinion. It was because he held, with Mr.Pitt,that whenever opportunities should arrive, the RomanCathco lies would do all in their power to advance their religion, that he would prefer exclusion to securities, and take his stand at once against further concessions. He would fairly own, that, upon constitutional grounds, he had a distrust of the Roman Catholic Religion. He found fault with no man for his faith ; he never applied his objections to the individual ; but if he found that upon a particular religious faith there was, and had been grounded, a scheme of worldly policy, he had a right Ito inquire into its nature ; and if he found it pernicious, he had a right to take precautions against it—(Hear). Could any man douht,then, that those who presided over the Roman Catholic Religion had had something mon than the purity of religious faith in view? Wnen be saw that religion calculated to give man poser over man—when he saw such doctrines as those of absolu tion, confession, and indulgence—.what was it to him whether they called it spiritual or temporal authority?— here was an authority; an influence exercised over men's minds, which Must have some object beyond the simple interests of religion. When he found that so lately as in the year 1807, Pope Pius the 7th issued a bull, which was promulgated in Ireland, offering 900 days' ' Indaigence to any good Cathol;c who should devoutly' utter three pious ejaculations therein named, in favour of the souls then in purgatory, he was astonished and disgusted."' As to the attempted explanations of such' things, the more he examined them the greater was the mystery, and the greater his disgust. And when he reflected that this piper was sent by rational men, and received by rational meo, for the purpose of work • . . I ing on the ignorance and superuition of the uneducated, he thought it pretty evident that there must be othet objects than those of religion. Although beheld no ob jection to individuals entertaining a profession of the Catholic faith, yet he had strong objections to the poli. tical system connected with it. If he looked to countries , where this religion luxuriated and held an undiyjded' sway—if he looked to others where it was left to struggle' with rival establishments—and if he looked iat house, . . where it was kept within certain limits and restrictions —he was forced to the conclusion, that that State was, the happiest and the meat fortunate which supper a mitigated, moderate,- temperate predominance of Protestant Church. It would be the natural comes of Catholics when once admitted to Parliament, to take every opportunity of improving the condition of their religion, and placing it in a MOTO favourable elitilltion in England. It was not the eventual destructinie if thel Protestant Church which he apprehended, bat iheilon flicts and struggles which must follow any attem to accomplish that object. His Right Hon. Friend• had told them that this measure would be the final consum mation of all that was wished and hoped for by theCotho lics. He did not believe it. He thought that the Catholics, once in the House, would soon unite them selves in the pursuit ot ulterior objects, for bettering the condition of their Church, and that they would by degrees find the means ot gaining support, and perhaps success. As he thought it WAS to guard against this possible increase of the influence of the Romtn Catholic rrligion; that the penal laws were passed'; it was in order to continue that safeguard Kat he now opposed their removal ; yet so anxious was he for the tranquil lity and security of Ireland, that he had no hesitation in declaring, that if be thought such an immense imme diate good could be derived from the present mea sure, he would be ready to purchase it by the sacrifice of these possible remote effects upon the Constitution. If he was sure, indeed, that this was the way which would lead them to the Elysian Fields, he should think the risk suborditute to the cer tain advantage of such an acquisition; but he could not make up his mind to any such conclusion. He thought that when the Roman Catholics were admitted to an equality, the same disturbances and struggles for office and power which now agitated the country would still be carried on. If the spiritual authority of the Priests were to be admitted now, how would they deny it after such a measure had passed ? Hit Right Hon. Friend called it patriotism now—(Cheeu). Patriotism! ~.-(Cheers and laughter). It was patriotism no*, be pause they supported his-Bill. But when that was passed, sbey would be the judges of what was patriotism them select; and it would then be too late to deny their right of exercising this spiritual authority for the furtherance of their own views. With. regard to the professions and decimations of the Catholic Prelates, he could not, as a public man, give the same confidence which they had so readily obtained from his Right Hon. Friend. His Right Hon. Friedat ...,4 ; F uj i tusk ob get was to infuriate the people, rbritttimidahe der Rolls lam coneessimi. Not Catholic Prelates discountenanced these dema .....1 who so excited his Right Hon. Friend's indigos .on? had they advised the Catholics of Ireland to sub mit to the law, and not to be led into intemperate conduct by the demagogues of the Catholic Auocia tion ? Of the Catholic Prelates who signed the Peti lion presented to the House by his Right Hon. Friend ; eleven were members of that Association—(Cheers). —o The tram which he bad been content to follow with regard to Ireland was, to enforce the laws with im partiality, to inquire into all abuses, and to redress grievances where they were found to exist. Farther dean that, according to the present firm conviction-Of his miad, he could not go. It was with unfeigned sorrow that he differed from his friends around him, whom he so cordially respected, and from whom be differed upon no other question in the slightest degree. —(Cheers from Mr. Canning.)—The influence of some great and illustrious names had lately been lost to that side of the question which he advocated. He never had adopted his opinion from the influence of station, however illustrious, or of names, however power ful. But while he deeply lamented the loss which the country had sustained, it was some consolation to him to feel that he was now continuing to support the cause which he formerly espoused, when no man could possibly suspect him of motives into which considers. 'dons of personal advantage could by possibility enter. (The Right. Hon. Gentleman sat down, amidst the loud cheering of the House.) Mr.BROUGHAM said so much had been adduced on the side which he advocated, that it was hardly necessary for him to say a word or two. After the display of brilliant argument which had been made in the House last night ; laud after the speech of his Hon. Friend that night, in which eloquence, wit, and argument were so well com bined, that they produced nothing but conciliatory wis dom, be should be-wrong if he did not confine hiasselfto a verfaarrow compass. He denied that the Treaty of Limerick was framed and worded as the Right Hon. Gentleman made it appear. He then alluded to the Log's - Speech of the 29th of July, 1820, in which a full participation in all the benefits of the British Constitu tion, was prOposed to be extended to his Majesty's Roman Catholic subjects, aid contended that this was an engagement as binding, or far more binding than the Meaty of Limerick. Ireland was at present in such a state that scarcely any change could make her ,worse. They bad been told of demagogues defying the attempts of Government to put them dowa ; these tales might be very amusing, but if that on which they were founded was true, was it without a cause? Not one of the Hon. Members, who had taken the other Side, had ventured to grapple with the alter native.--(Cheers). It was for them, it they objected to that proposed, to come forward and say what. it was that they were prepared to do-.(Hear, hear 1) This state of things could not last. if they refused this ma dun, they might have some little respite; but if Ireland was still to be treated as it had been, they might as well at once reply to it with the last word—despair 1 Mr. GOULBORN rose amidst the,cries of "Qom. tion, question I" He declared his perfect concurrence with the sentiments of his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Peel), from whom he had never differed on political subjects; and opposed the Resolution—not less upon , aciple, than upon the impossibility of satisfying the 'its in their demands. bad the Mr. Fecretary VA el NiNti said, teat atter the Warn to which the debate had been carried. the House would have a sufficient security, both in his discretion and his reeling., that he should not occupy its time unneces sarily. Indeed, be could halve bent content to have refrained Irom addressing it at all, had he not felt he might have been charged with disre•pect towards the House if he allowed the question to go to a division, lirrlshoot answering some remarks which had been made, • stating the principles upon which he should support Resolution. And at the outer, he thought it might he advisable on his part to call the attention of the House to the real question before it, and which, he must say, appeared to have been forgotten by most of the Honourable Gentlemen who bad taken a past in the debate, that evening. The Honourable Baronet had, with that generosity and prodigality which is inspired by a good cause, offered too many `rather than too few arguments in the support of his Resole. ion; and because the object of the Hon. Baronet had not been simply stated, a most unfair advantage bad been taken by the opponents to the measure. The ob ject of the Resolution really was to ascertain whether it was the intention of the new Parliament to follow in the steps of the old one ? Notwithstanding that fact, however, objections were made, because come detailed plan was not laid before the House, whet all that the Resolution asked was a decision as to a preliminary principle. It appeared to hinsexttaordioary that a Mem ber who had never before sat in that House should be guilty of so gross an error, but it was indeed truly sur prising that the example should have been set by a Right Hen. Gentleman fret whom the most perfect judicial accuracy might have been expected—(Hear, heir, and laughter.) The Right Hon. Gentleman had divided his speech into two parte ; the one part was historical, and the other critical. The Right Hon. Gentleman ' himself had confessed that the historical part was not very accurate, and he (Mr. Canning) had no doubt that he should succeed in 'hewing that theeritieal part was not more fortunate. The Right Hon. Gentleman bad argued.from first to last that as there were no securities propounded, so therefore the Resolution should not be agreed to by the House. No securities propoended4 Propounded in what ? Why, in a Resolotion.--(Cheers and laughter from the Opposition). A Resolution which simply called upon the House to say whether it isberited, or whether it abjure d the sentiments enter. Mined by its predecessor? question propounded to that House was, that it was incumbent upon it to take into consideration the disabilities under which the Roman Catholics laboured, with a view to theft relic& Thus, then, no plan was necessary; no plan could hove been introduced, and the House was only called upon to resolve on a simple principle. The. House was there. fore asked a plain question, and why was it asked that question? Was it for idle purports? Most certainly not; it was asked because the House of. Commons had bees returned to its constituents, that a. great, change had taken place in its opinions on the Question of Ca..- thedic Emancipation. He did not believe that any such change had been produced--(Loud cheers)w—Sull it was most important to ascertain the fact. The IL:elution had been proposed for that purpose, and where, then, would he ask, was its impropriety to be found ? (Hiterr).—h was said that a Bill ought to hart been introduced, but be thought it would have been most unwise to have attempted to introduce a Bill, without first learning whether the House was in • temper likely to receive it? If the Resoletion before the Hausa woe senrnsdriben Voidd be the proper time to think of eneteing into details; but be apprehended evits7 one would agree with him in thinking that it would be highly unwise to excite the expectations of the Roman Catholics, by the preparation of a Bill, and an attempt to bring it forward, before it was known whether the House would be inclined to look upon the measure with the slightest favour.—(Hear, hear 1)—So much then for the necessity of bringing forward at that period a scheme of securities, and other details, which had been required by the Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman: But that Right Hon. Gentleman had introduced the names of those persons who had heretofore taken in active part in favour of Emancipation, and had argued that they all, and he (Mr. Canning), amongst the rest, bad insisted on the necessity of adequate security being given. He bad also, in very courteous terms, accused hint (Mr. Canning) of having abandoned that principle. He (Mr. Canning) had abandoned no principle which he had entertained upon the question—(Cheers). The Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman had asked him, " how he, who in 1818 had required securities, had ceased to do so now r But did the Right Honourable Gentleman know that he (Mr. Canning) did not still require securities? How did the Right Honourable Gentleman know that he (Mr. Canning) had been guilty of such a dereliction from duty as to abandon a principle without offering even a pretence for such conduct 1— (Cheers.) He did not know whether the Right Hon. and Learned Gent. was a Member of that House in 1813— (a Member opposite said that the Master of the Rolls was not.) The Right Honourable Gentleman, thee, was not a Member, he, therefore, perhaps, might be ignorant of that portion of the historical part of the question, although a very different abridgement would have supplied the deficiency—(Hear and laughter,).— and consequently he (Mr. Canning) would take upon himself the office of historian for a few minutes, and acquaint the Right Honourable and Learned G. ntle man with what had really °centred. In 1812, he had the honour of proposing a resolution to that House very similar to the one then before it ; but it was under different circumstances; for, instead of being at the commencement of a Parliament, it was at the close of one. That resolution was carried, and it was afterwards adopted in their new Parliament by a much larger majority than he had ventured to hope for. Indeed, he believed he might with justice say, that be had been so fortunate as to gain the most signal victory which had yet been obtained, for the majority on that occasion was no less he believed than 159—(Hear). He imme diately resigned the fruits of his victory into the hands of Mr. Grattan, of that man whose pat:locket merited every commendation, and a Bill was brought in. He (Mr. Canning) drew up a scheme of securities, which appeared to him to be sufficient : but whether they were of any value or not, was a matter of no importance. But he could not but remark,that a great deal of fal lacy seemed to be concealed in the term securities.— Any one who bad heard the Right Honourable Gentle. niaa, would have imagined that they went to provide particularly for the preservation of the Church and State, while the real fact was, that they were very far from being of so vastly an important character. Tte 'comities which he had proposed were two. The one was, that the Election of the Roman Catholic 2Gsfrops shuuld be somewhat under the restrain. -' - and the other was, that the Private Col tweet the Court of Rome and the lint of the Crown. !oatespondsoce be- Roman Catholics