Star. — London, England, 1824-06-18 00:00:00

,t... • :catty of Monaghan, praying far emancipation.—The Petition was *pied by '.PO') persons. Mr. S. Rio , . said, that the c: utiments of all the Irish Catholics w ere o f th e carne i m p o rt as thuse ni tbe Petitioners. Mr. GOU I.IIU It N presented a Petition front the Dean and Chapter of Derry, in justification of their conduct relative to the C-thedraL CORPORATInN AND TEST ACTS. Mr. W. SMITH said, that in presenting a Petition of so much consequence to the parties, be trusted he might be indulged with a L:w minutes attention. whilst he explained who the parties were, and what was the nature of the Petition. The Petitioners were the three denominations of Dissenters, as they were anciently termed, residing in the Metropolis and it: vicinity, and the Petition was signed by about ten thousand persons. The parties on whose behalf he was addressing the House, consisted of almost every kind of religious persuasions. Many or them coincided with the doctrines of the Church of England, and many differed front it; but they all agreed in this—objecting to the rights and discipline of the Church. They complained that in consequence of several dis abi!ities, they were held to be incapable of being placed in certain places of trisr, power, and esnolum-in ; and they conceived such a prohibition to be contrary to the principles of a just Government. With respect to the penalties attached to those laws, they conceived them only tit to he exercised towaras individuals who had trans gressed the laws of the land. They disclaimed any acknowledgment of the spiritual power of the Pope, and therefore they were not to be held dangerous on that account. It was not his intention at the present moment to found any motion on the subject of the Petition. lie would, however, had such been his intention, rather take it on the broad ground that differences of religious opinions ought not to disqualify a person front enjoying civil appointments, and in this view the Homan Catholics wo u ld be included. It was needless for him, when speaking of the Dissenters, to say one word on that subject. And as he did not intend to make any motion in connec tion with the Petition, and being only desirous that the case should be brought before both Houses of Parliament, (he understood a similar Petition was to be presented in the House of Lords), he would content himself with moving for leave to bring up the Pe tition.—The Petition was then brought up and laid on the table. ROBERTSON objected to the prayer of the Petition. After a few few words from Mr. Was. SMITH, the Petition was ordered to be printed. DERRY CATHEDRAL. Sir G. HILL presented a Petition from the Dean and Chapter, and the Inhabitants of Derry, praying that the funds applicable to the repairs of the Cathedral might be inquired into in the next Ses sion of Parliament. The Right lion. Baronet stated, that the Peti tioners were anxious to vindicate the course of proceedings they had instructed their Representative in Parliament to institute re specting the. Repairs of the Cathedral. Mr. Alderman WOOD was surprised that the Honourable Ba ronet should come to the House to ask information on the subject, when they had all the necessary information in their own posses sion. He also contended, that the Bishop, and Dean and Chapter, possessed sufficient funds for the repair of the Cathedral, without any Parliamentary aid. Mr. W. SMITH opposed the Petition, which was ordered to be printed. A message from the Lords announced that their Lordships bad agreed to the Irish Bankers, the Thames Navigation, and several other Bills, without amendment; and to the Thames Tunnel, and several other Bills, with amendments. Mr. KENNEDY brought up the Repot t of the Committee on the Salmon Fisheries. Sir JAM ES MACKINTOSH presented several Petitions against Slavery, from different Congregations in Scotland ; and in doing so he took the opportunity of stating, that he should, early in the next Session, call the attention of the House to the two subjects of Copy. right, and the Lord Chamberlain's power of licensing; which last power was equally useless and degrading to the man of genius. Mr. DAWSON brought up the Eleventh Report of the Commis sioners on Public Charities.—Ordered to be printed. Sir JAM ES MACKINTOSH presented a Petition from Mr. Lawless, who, he understood, was the conductor of a popular pub lication in Belfast. This Gentleman, who, from his connexions, might be supposed to know something of public opinion, strongly recommended to the House to adopt some steps to put down politi cal processions in Ireland. In this recommendation he sincerely joined. He wined he could see the leaden of the Orange Socie ties in Dublin, as well as taking a part in recommending their being put an end to, exerting themselves personally to put them down.— lie trusted some steps would be taken to put down or prevent any precession taking place on the 12th of July. He thought the time was arrived when the celebration of victories long gone by should be discontinued, and party disturbances done away entirely. Until that was done, there was no chance that tranquillity would be re stored to Ire land.—The Petition was ordered to be printed. IMPRISONMENT IN IRELAND. Sir J. MACKINTOSH presented a Petition from Mr. Coyle, an Irishman, complaining of a series of hardships and persecutions which he had sustained during the last thirty years in Ireland. The Petition stated that his linen manufactory had been destroyed by the prosecu tions to which he was subjected. In 1796 he was ap prehended and put in prison upon a warrant charging him with being a reputed Papist, and with having dis tributed ammunition to Papists. In 1803 he was once more committed to prison: he was confined in Kilmain ham Jail, where he underwent, at the instance of a Mr. Tfevor, the most cruel and severe course of treatment; from this imprisonment he was afterwards released, by the intervention of Lord Hastings. The Commissioners of Inquiry were atterwards instructed to. investigate these transactions; but, strange to say, tiity confined their examination to the turnkeys and attend nts of the prison, the parties charged with the offencti. He had now been requested to present this Petition, and, late as it was in the Session, he had presented it, that the pe titioner might be punished if he had slandered the indi viduals against whom he brought this charge; and that on the contrary, if he had suffered to the extent he al leged, justice might be done him on his oppressors. Mr. GOULBUIIN said, the transactions to which this I'etitiou alluded took place long before he came into office. This, he trusted, would plead his excuse for not being prepared to give an answer to its allega tions in the interval. _ _ Mr. J. SMITH said, the charges in this Petition were twist atrocious and disgusting; still it was the duty of the House to inquire into them, and do justice to the injured patty. Mr. Secretary PEEL said, these transactions had taken place before he became connected with Ireland, therefore he was not prepared either to affirm or deny the allegations contained in the Petition. He had, how ever; had some communication on business with Mr. Trevor, and from what he knew of him from that COM. munication, he could not believe that Dlr. Trevor could have been guilty of the acts with which he was charged in this Petition. He trusted the Honourw.ble Gentleman would not now move to have the Petition printed, and by so doing send these calumnies unanswered into the world, and leave them so unanswered for months. • Mr. HUTCIIINSON spoke to the scenes of carnage, oppression, and cruelty, with which the putting down the rebellion of 1798 was accompanied. 6ir JAMES MACKINTOSH expressed his readiness tr: give Government a Lull opportunity to institute in quiry into this case, and to afford them that oppnrtu- Lity, he would now withdraw his Petition till next SCS- SiMi.—The Petition was then withdrawn. C A 11101.1 C assoctArzox. • Si: . F. 131.711DET1 said, he held in his hand a Peri. ' lion front the Catholic Association of Dublin, complain. jug of having been most grossly calumniated in the 11 , use, when their acts and their motives had also been mist cptesented, and that too, principally by members of . that Association which can on all their proceedings iti secret, and communicated by signs and tokens, un derstood only by its own members, one of whom had overtutner.l and trampled upon, or evaded, if not de staned t h e privileges of the House of Commons.— bureiy tracts 411 AsLociation was r , aievous than one which met and declared their objects and intentions in open day, and which were only di rected to obtaining for their own body, consisting of seven-eighths at least of the population of Ireland, those rights and privileges which their Protestant fellow subjects enjoyed. This was a state of things which he was convinced the Public would not much longer en dure. The time would arrive, he trusted, when this sub ject might be more fully discussed. He never considered that presenting a Petition was a convenient time for dis cussion, but he could riot, consistent with what he con sidered his duty to these Petitioners, present this Peti tion without accompanying it with these few observa tions. He should conclude by moving that the Peti tion be brought up. The Petition was then read, which adverted to the 'speech of the Member for Armagh, and denied in posi tive terms the charges brought by the Honourable Mem ber in that speech against them.—The Petition was or dered to be printed. Mit. PERROTT. Mr. HUME said, he had a Petition to pr,, ent from Henry Dundas Perrott, late a Captain in the Royal Navy, praying for an inquiry into his case. The Ho nourable Gentleman stated, that the Petitioner had been in twenty-five naval actions, and commanded in seven, in which he had been successful; that he had received seven wounds, and lost an arm in the service ; after which he was convicted, on the perjured testimony of a man and his wife, cf an offence for which he was - de prived of his commission ; and that while he was pro ceeding to prosecute the witnesses for perjury, they both died, and left him no means of redress, but throwing himself on the consideration of the House. Mr. CROKEIt said, the case was most important, and excited great interest at the Admiralty. The charge was, that an Officer who had seen great service, had en deavouredto swindle unfortunate persons out of a sum of money by means of false representations of official communications. That charge had been proved, and the consequence was the dismissal of the offender from the service. He must object to trying the question over again in that House, as no charge of misconduct had been made out against the Admiralty: Mr. HUME said, he had read affidavits which con vincedhim that the Petitioner had been the victim of a conspiracy.—The Petition was ordered to lie on the table and be piloted. SCOTCH JUDICATURE DILL. Qn the Order of the Day for the second reading of the Scotch Judicature Bill, Mr. Secretary PEEL said, he understood there was an anxious desire on the part of the Scotch Representa tives to have an opportunity of consulting their con stituents on the Bill; and on the part of the people of Scotland, to have an opportunity of expressing their opinions on the subject by Petitions to the House ; and he thought, in deference to both, the measure should not be proceeded in this Session. Mr. ABERCROM BY said, after the speech of the Right Honourable Gentleman, he had no hope the Bill would pass. The Bill was opposed by the Lord Ad- vocate of Scotland, and his obedient Freeholders would Petition against it, but they were not the people of Scotland, nor any large portion of the people ; still there could be no doubt their opinions would prevail. If the Bill was an Insurrection Act, or a Tax Bill, it; would certainly be passed during the present Session, but as it was a boon to Scotland, it was delayed for the purpose of being defeated. The LORD ADVOCATE of SCOTLAND said, the Bill in its present shape required material alterations, which made it im possibk it could be passed in the present Session. He did not be lieve the consequence of delay would be to defeat the Bill. Mr. Secretary CANNING and Mr. Secretary Piu promised to support the Bill next Session.—The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be committed this day two maths. EAST INDIA POSSESSIONS. On the motion of Mr. Secretary CANNING, the drop ped Order of the Day was read for going into a Commit tee on the East India Possessions Bill. Mr. Secretary CANNING then rose; and said—ln pursuance, Sir, of the promise I made a few nights back, I propose, in moving that you leave the Chair, to:open very shortly the nature of the transaction out of which this measure arises. I take the liberty of presenting my self to the House on the present occasion, although the Bill is in the hands of my Right Hbnourable Friend the President of the Board of Controul (Mr. Wynn), because the treaty originated at the time when I had the honour of holding that office, and therefore I am responsible for the principle upon which it is founded. In order to judge of the transaction fairly, Gentlemen will please to recollect the situation in which things stood at the con clusion of the war. It will probably be remembered, that at that period all the possessions which had been taken from the Dutch were restored to them. I am not now called upon to discuss the policy or expediency of 'that measure; but I think I am prepared to shew that in the existing circumstances of the times, it was highly desirable not to press too hardly upon that country ; and at all events the treaty with the Netherlands received the approbation of Parliament. In this state things stood until some time in the year 1816, when I came ihto of fice as President of the Board of Controul. There were many stipulations then in progress—many had not been fully explained—many were left open to discussion; and from the natural eagerness, on the one hand, to obtain re possession of those Settlements from which they had been driven by conquest, and from the slowness natu ral to the transaction, great delay too place, and consi derable difficulties arose on account of the great distance from home. In consequence of this a degree of ill hu mour had sprung up, which required a great deal of 1 management and forbearance to appease. I trust I shall not be supposed unkind in wishing to disparage those who were employed in our own service; but, I must state, that there was a view taken of the transaction by the subordinate agents of the East India Company, inconsistent with their capacity of subordinate agents— they questioned the policy of the Treaty, and seemed more disposed to look into the stipulations than to carry them into execution. At a considerable distance from any controul agents are sometimes apt to forget the re lation in which they stand to those who entrust them with power; and so it happened, that these Gentlemen placed the Government at home in this perplexing con dition. They must either be pledged to support them in all their extremities, or be reduced to the necessity of rescinding their acts; and I think I speak within bounds when I say, that there were at that period, in the year 1816, no Less than half a dozen treaties in pro gress of negociation, without any authority whatso ever—(Hear, hear). At that time I received constant communications that a design was entertained by the Government of the Netherlands to retake all the possessions and recover all the advantages which they had form er ly en j o y e d ; an d to e x clude the Eng lish from all participation in the trade in those seas—(Near). As was my duty, I frequently required, in answer to those representations, some specific act which could be substantiated by evidence, so that the question might fairly be brought under consideration; but to all my demands I never could get anything like a distinct answer. I received constant reiterations of the intentions of the Dutch Government, abundance of vague insinuations, and even, by way of illustration, an obscure reference to the massacre of Amboyna— Laughier).—On the other hand, complaints reached me from the Netherlands of the tardiness of our agents to make restitution ; and it happening very unfortunately at that time that a most distingurshed Gentleman, of considerable talents and great zeal for the public ser vice, the then Governor of Java, was'sent to Bencoolen, and having been raised from the humble title of Resi dent, which in fact meant nothing mire than Superin tendant of Pepper —(A laugh)—to the rank and station of Lieutenant-Governor, a suspicion was entertained that there was a design on the part of the English Go vernment to form a new empire in the Indian seas, of which Bencoolen was to be the capital. Out of this state of things arose a feeling of ill humour between two Powers which, in my judgment, had every reason of sound policy for agreeing, and, in fact, there seemed to have been no prosrect of bickering. As the greater part of the imputation against the Indian Government was a design of exclusive trade, and an intention to keep the commerce of the Indian seas to themselves, the first step towards a negotiation was to get a disavowal of the principle, although no act bad been committed.— I am aware that such a course is unusual in diplomatic intercourse ; but as the great question was the principle to which I have alluded, our first object was to have this principle disavowed. In the course of these mutual animosities, by the enterprising spirit and sound judg ment of the Gentleman I have already mentioned, we became possessed of the Island of Sincapore, the ad vantages of which must be too well known to require now to be explained. It may, perhaps, be expected that I should explain the nature of our title to this pos session. As facts and documents are necessary to a clear title, I individually was certainly of opinion that we could not substantiate our title; but as all titles in the East are not of a very accurate and defined nature, I thought it would be a great mistake to apply to this particular case the general principles of European policy, or any high romantic feelings of morality— (Hear, hear). Amongst the charges against the Netherlands, it was urged that they had entered into treaties with all the Eastern Islands, excluding all other European Powers from commercial intercourse. This was a species of Treaty which it was obviously our interest to annul; but, at the same time, I could not help remembering, that we ourselves had entered into similar Treaties with other States. However, the existence of this fact did not take away my desire to abrogate the Treaties to which I have alluded; but, then, there were considerable difficulties to be encoun tered. This consideration led me to look at the means whereby we could repair the error, and undo the advan tages which the Dutch possessed, and accordingly a Treaty was entered into, at the restoration of peace, to restore to the Dutch some Islands, amounting to 12 in number. These Islands were not of very great size or extent. They were trifling in point of income, and most inconvenient as to the rights and claims which they set up; every one of which were the subjects of con stant discussion and irritation, and were sure to conti nue, so long as our intercourse with them was main tained. It was, therefore, thought desirable to remove all these annoyances, and thus to get quit of all mutual recriminations, for each party could justly upbraid the other with charge of " et tat rogue: The results of this Treaty were—an admission of the principles of free trade—a line of demarcation was drawn, separating our territories from theirs, and thus avoiding all differences arising from immediate contact, and ridding them of their settlements on the Indian Continent—(Hear). — All these objects are now attained—we have obtained Sincapore, we have got a free trade, and in return we have given up Bencoolen. So far from Bencoolen hav ing been advantageous in point of revenue, it was a most onerous and inconvenient possession; and when the question of abandoning it altogether was mooted, and the Company ultimately came to the determination of retaining it, it was not on account of its importance, but from their not being able to say into whose hands it might fall. The Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Hume) opposite, will remember that it cost this country 85,0001. annually, over and above its income, for the mainte nance of that barren possession, and the only return we received was the cultivation of spices. But the Indian Government gave the ground, gave the plants, and gave the money for cultivation ; and when the question was whether the possession should be abandoned, it is a lit tle hard to quarrel with the abandonment when we got something for it—(Hear, hear). But it is said we have given away a valuable possession to the Dutch, because it was considered favourable to the cultivation of spices; but with this I have nothing to do—with this the treaty has nothing to do. But, in fact, Bencoolen gives very little spices, and the East India Company has at this moment in its stores as great a quantity of every species of spice as will do for five or six years consumption, which will supply the period within which will arise the reconsideration of the Charter. The whole dan ger then to be apprehended is reduced to this, that the country may, perchance, run short of nutmegs, cloves, and cinnamon, for our puddings—(A laugh).— By the way, I said cinnamon by mistake, for when we talk of their monopoly in nutmeg, we have the mono poly in cinnamon—( Hear, hear). I could not have the face to argue with the Dutch on the subject of mono poly. If I said, " You have a monopoly of spice"— they would answer, " But you have a monopoly in opium." " We have salt," " but you have cinnamon" (Hear, hear). It would really require considerable powers of face to reproach the good people of the Ne therlands with doing that which we practice ourselves. But to those who mourn over the loss of those savoury ingredients, it may be some consolation to know, that Sincapore possesses a soil and climate admirably suited for their production—(A laugh)—and they may take comfort in the assurance, that long before any new appetite can be created in this country greatly surpass ing anything which has hitherto been experienced, we shall have a plentiful growth of our own, even if the Dutch should be mad enough to maintain a monopoly so unprofitable—(Hear, hear). What the real value of Sincapore may be, I am not prepared to say, but this 1 know, that in all discussions on this subject, it has ever been considered the one thing necessary, the liklith ne eessarium, to render our Indian possessions complete.— Be its value, then, what it may, that object is now se cured. The cession of Malacca now gives us the con tinuous possession of the Malayan peninsula, and by the acquisition of Malacca and Sincapore,- we have the .ocuplete command of the Malacca Straits to the Chi nese Sea—(Hear, hear). We have further sect i tred the extinction of the Dutch title on the Continent, and we have given in return a barren settlement, which cost us 85,000 annually to maintain. We have given a pio fession on our part of a sincere disposition to pursue the principles of free trade, and we have gained its return the same professions from a Power at all times snp rosel to he adverse to those points, and they are now I 1 •e. g e in the face of the world, to maintain free trade to a greater extent than was even yet known in Asia, and to full as great an extent as any other Power in Eat ope— (Hear, hear). Having, therefore, laid the foundatio n if a friendly understanding between the two countries, alai obtained for England all that she tequired ; I cainoa think that the treaty has done any disservice to th e country, having purchased all that we wanted, at no other sacrifice than the surrender of a settlement, which, from principles of policy we were called upon to 41).11:- don. It is nut of these transactions, Sir, that the pie sent Bill arises ; and it is proposed to place the new se t . Clement under the controul of the East India Company, subject, of course, to the same responsibility as for ail the other Indian possessions. I now move, Sir, that you leave the Chair. Mr.IIUME was not disposed to agree with the Right Honourable Gentleman, or be swayed in his opinion by the specious statement he had made to the Ilou.e. The subject was one of the highest importance, and little suited to the facetiousness with w hich the Right lion. Gentleman thought proper, in some parts of his (rse] va tions, to treat it. Our policy in the East Indies had of late years tended to aggrandize the interests of every other nation except this country. Of this the treaty of Java afforded evidence ; and in the late treaty the Grecian Archipelago had been quite shut out, and a monopoly of the trade it afforded ceded to the Dutch. It had been said that it was the interest of this country, since the peace, to protect the Dutch, and to aff,..ta every means that could contribute to its strength. If so, why keep Demerara from them, and the other places we appropriated to ourselves? Sorely Demerara was of more importance to them than it was to us. The treaty of Java, in his opinion, was entered into with an utter ignorance of the interests of England, othet wise it would not have contained the conditions and provi sions which were to be found in it. It was the grossest blunder of diplomacy which had occurred for a long time. The conduct of Government towards the English settlements in the East Indies was only to he compared to the manner in which we acted towards Ireland : in the one instance, as in the other, we sought to establish a power and influence, not by what the interests of the community suggested and required, but by a brute force, which was naturally resisted, and rendered unpopular and unacceptable. The Hon. Member proceeded to detail our policy generally towards the East Indian Set tlements, which, in his opinion, was liable to much cen sure ; and complained of the tone in which the Right Hon. Gentleman had spoken of Governor Raffles, whote services were, in his opinion, most important and useful. As to Bencoolen, he did not himself regard it as a place of primary importance for this country to retain. In deed he (Mr. Hume) was an advocate some time ago for the East India Company relinquishing it, as well as the Prince of Wales's Island, which did not appear to him an important possession to England. His principal objection to the present treaty was, that it involved this country in a breach of good faith. From his own experience he had an opportunity of knowing that the Dutch were mast unpopular in the East Indies, and therefore any cession made to them should be regarded with peculiar jealousy and caution. As to the Malacca Straits, which had been so much relied upon by the Right Hon. Gentleman, he (Mr. Hume) was not disposed to give much importance to that cession ; as to what lay to the Not th of those Straits, he was ready to admit we had gained some advantage; but then we were shut out and excluded from all that lay to the south of them. Whilst, therefore, we were possessed of one end, and dii possessed of the other, it could not be fairly said that we had the real and substantial possession of these Straits. The acquisition of Sincapore was not, in his opinion, by any means an equivalent for what we had sustained in substantial loss by the cession of Bencoolen, and the other advantages which this treaty gave away. This was his opinion, and he was satisfied it was in con formity with the sense of the country. Mr. ROBERTSON, at some length contended, that our China trade would be endangered by the treaty to the amount of nearly three millions annually, and he therefore felt it his duty to oppose it. Mr. C. WYNN stated, that the passing of this Bill would make no difference as to the execution of the Treaty to which it referred, inasmuch as it had been already ratified, and had been guaranteed by the good faith of the country. He thought that the,s'peech of the Honourable Member for Aberdeen ft:fatted rather to the Treaty of 1814 than to the present Treaty, as he did not seem acquainted with the places to which allu sion was made in the latter Treaty. He denied that in case of war our trade to China would be entirely at the mercy of the Dutch. Bencoolen was not a fortification of any strength, and whatever power was master of the sea, was also master of Bencoolen. When we were at peace with the Dutch, we were entitled by this Treaty to friendly offices at Bencoolen; and when we went to war with them, he had no doubt that we should be able to take it. He contended that we had not been guilty of any breach of faith to the native Powers in ceding these islands to the Dutch, and further argued that the price of spices had not been increased, but on the con trary, had been diminished by their cession. • Ise con cluded by declaring that he gave his warmest support to this Bill. Mr. BRIGHT opposed it, because he believed that the treaty which it ratified was a breach of good faith to the native Powers, and was only made by the Ditch for the purpose of being violated. He contended that the islands ceded were part of the property of the Croy' n of England, and that being such, they could not he ceded without the consent of Parliament. He called upon Parliament to withhold that consent, and . to throw out the present measure. Mr. AS FELL supported the Bill, contending that the treaty to which it referred was well calculated to put an end to all the differences which existed between the English and Dutch Governments. He denied that the treaty gave the command of the Straits of Sunda to the Dutch. As we had Prince of Wales's Island at one end of them, Sincapore at the other, and Malacca in their centre, we had a full command of those Straits, and therefore could not receive any material annoyance in our trade with China. Mr. TR ANT exphe,sed himself in favour of the Bill, and declared that it was generally approved of by the merchants of London. Sir C. FORBES said, that altogether this question was one of a division, of spoil, without any reg a rd to the interests of the people, who were so vitally con• v •Tned i g pris () Net 00 j ae thoug h ' to be to Hr.? o f the r furthers Archie o f more i n g all Dutch The so r 4 Mr. 11 trod*"' die Dot( The C wine" Mr. S _ . est. It ti After ceas rePc time 0111 Mn sure e at lea! the CI 11107, 110 NJ ‘OllSel &silo ferred Mr Clerk MOW Chant depar of 154 Dr. aid the ez Mr. Friend •sir I Mr. peens deb. Report repent and thi OD I •nom Weft I T►e Holm ,--- ---- Ca the si trmis haw Th awl Ca Shan Free $4l, 101 tan ma into the /obi ea WA ft