Star. — London, England, 1828-07-17 00:00:00

poi ted Don Miguel; whereas, on the other side were to be found many who were not friends to the interests of thiseountry ; and many too, indeed, I believe, who are • not Friends to the interests of any country whatever.— • Nevertheless, whatever leaning has been showo towards either side in the recent transactions in Portugal, would appear to be shown in favour of that side towards which the Noble Lord would represent the Government of this country as having acted an adverse part. I now come to the second point of the speech of the Noble Lord, on which he dwelt at greater length, and with still more energy. And first, with respect to the Treaty of the 6th of July, 1827, which has been the theme of the Noble Lord's high eulogy, I shall not say one word of its pro priety or v isdom, nor make any remark whatever upon A it, further than to say, that finding such a Treaty in exis lulkence, I will not yield to the Noble Lord in a sincere and earnest desire to carry it into execution. The Noble Lord seemed to think that there was a disposition on the part of the present Government to modify and to di minish the force of that Treaty ; hut I can assure the Noble Lord that no such disposition exists, and that there is every intention of carrying the Treaty into effect in the same spirit in which it was entered into. The Treaty seemed to be regarded by the Noble Lord as part of a plan for the destruction of the Turkish empire; but the destruction of that empire, or its dismemberment, which the Noble Lord expressed himself so desirous to see, was no part of the Treaty, or in the most remote degree contemplated by it. So far from it, the dismember ment of the Empire, even the weakening of it was not contemplated, nor was it by any means the wish or the policy c f this country that Turkey should be weakened. The Noble Lord assumed that appearances were in fa vour of such a design, but the fivers of it were want ing. A hope did exist, which unfortunately was not rralised, that the objects the Treaty proposed were to be all attained by negotiation—and they nearly were attained, when his Imperial Majesty the Emperor of Russia thought fit, fur reasons which appeared to make it incumbent on him to declare war against the Porte. This declaration cf war placed her two Allies in a new situation, whose design, in co-operation with Russia, was to carry their objects by every means short of war. This material alteration in our position led to mutual explanations ; and here I may be permitted to remark, that if there was any intent on on the part of his Ma jesty's Government to evade the Treaty of 6th of July, 18c27, the new and embarrassing situation in which we were placed afforded at least a plausible ground for our retiring from the fulfilment of its engagements. But to show the sincerity of the disposition of Government to execute the terms and engagements of the Treaty, no manifestation of a wish was made to withdraw from -tnem—(Hear, hear). No time was lost in deciding, under the circumstances of our new situation, how the Treaty could be carried into execution, according to the spirit in which it was framed. Owing to the magnani mity of his Imperial Majesty the Emperor of Russia, means were successfully devised for continuing the alli ance in support of the Treaty ; for although the Em peror bad declared war against the Porte, he generously connoted to divest himself of the character of a belli gerent in the Mediterranean. The Emperor could not give a greater proof of his sincerity to carry the Treaty into effect, by ceasing to assume a belligerent character, and so placing himself as that he might co-operate with neutrals. The Noble Lord might be etymologically correct in saying that Turkey was not our ancient fiend, but she certainly was our constant triend. There was no Power against which we had seldomer cause of com plaint than Turkey .; and even now it could not be said we had cause of war against her. The Noble Lord indulged in exultation at the prospect of her downfall. For my part I cannot share in that exultation, and I hope to . see her long forming one of the great confederacy of na tions—(Hear). Her independence and her station among nations was important to this country, and important for the tine preservition of the balance of Europe— (loud cries of hear, hear ! from Lord Holland). Nor is this my opinion alone. I know, too, that it is the sen timent entertained by his Imperial Majesty the Emperor of Russia, who, although he has declared war against the Porte, has expressed himself as adverse to its dis-' niemberment or destruction. I own I have more of confidence in the magnanimity of his Imperial Majesty than I have of apprehension or alarm in the prediction • other quarters of the downfal and dissolution of the Turkish power—(Hear). With respect to the omission Which has hitherto taken place in not sending out com mercial agents (as we understood to Greece and the Levant), I take in some degree blame to myself for the omission—but the reason is, that I really have not been ible, since the short period of my accession to office, to atisfy myself of the qualifications of the persons who presented themselves as candidates for the commercial , appointments, which will, I trust, however, shortly take lace. The Noble Lord neat proceeded to institute a comparison between the policy of those who at present discharged the functions of his Majesty's Government and the policy of Mr. Canning. It is a favourite topic, I am aware, with others as well as the Noble Lord, to draw comparisons of this kind unfavourable , the existing Government, as if there had been a deviaties from the policy of Mr. Canning. Those iho indulged mostly in that topic did not show in what the deviation consisted; for my part I am at a loss to know what is meant by those who use this lan rage, and I am also disposed to believe they are like the .oble Lord this evening—somewhat at a loss to know what they mean by it themselves—(Hear, hear, and a laugh). The sincere and earnest desire shown to the whole world to carry into execution the Treaty of the 6th of July, did not chow any intention of departing from the policy r f Mr. Canning ; and I am not aware any change which has taken place in the Councils of 'is Majesty's Government relating to the general policy the Empire, since the loss of that distinguished Mi ;ger. As to any influence that the Holy Alliance ray be supposed to have 'over the course of policy adopted by his Majesty's Government, I cannot help considering it as a mere figure of speech, and of no im portance to the subject. It mayzive an opportunity • a great deal of sound and fury ; but after all, it can ;oily nothing, for I will take upon myself to deny Aat this Government has ever been connected with the doly Alliance, in any sense injurious to the honour of the country. In cne word, the general policy of this country has always been to use its utmost endeavours , preserve the peace of the whole of Europe; but I do not think that that object is most likely to be accom plished by vilifying every Sovereign that reigns in Europe—(Hear, hear, hear); and - for any thing that I sn see to the contrary, for no other reason in the world it because they are Sovereigns—(Hear, hear hear). neither do I think that it is to be eff ecte d by vilifying ie institutions of other countries, because they do not ippen to deserve that admiration which attaches to °se which we are so fortunate as to possess. It is not , these means, by Lords, that universal peace will be effected, but rather by zealously cultivating and code . /oaring to obtain the good will of all the other Powers; and by believing it to be possible that other nations lay be happy to a certain extent, even though they do not possess institutions as excellent as those of !hi. , coentry. In short, I think that it may 14t be done by ' exercising a little of that toleration in litics, which some Noble Lords have evinced them e yes to be tin eager for on religious matters; and I do ,ink, that by a prudent forbearance—by a wise exercisevf good will, we shall be more likely to insure that *mat peace (which, I conceive, must be the object of al our views), than by seizing on every opportunity, andpressing on the different States of Europe, with or *trout their desire, institutions no doubt very admirabi in them selves as applied to this kingdom, but, iskxperience has taught us, not well suited to other State‘—(Hear). I do not think the Noble Lord has started thy other topic which calls for further observation fron me; but with respect to the Noble Lord's motion, I till again say, that though some of the papers which i includes are entirely unobjectionable in themselves, ye I think that the whole of those which have been mWed will but afford so very partial a view of the realcircum stance of the case, which they profess to explaii ; and, indeed; that it will be so injurious to present hem to Parliament at the present moment, that I feeltnyself bound to oppose the motion of the Noble Lord. The time, no doubt, will come when we shall be as atzious as the Noble L ord; to have the papers submitted b this House, to meet every objection that may be takin to the course that we have thought it right to pone ; but as the matter now stands, I think that your lord ships will do ill to encourage the motion of the noble Lord, and I shall, therefore, vote against it. Lord GODE RIC H concurred in the objections made by the Noble Secretary for Foreign Affairs to she pro duction of the documents in question ; yet he was not at all surprised at the view taken by the Noble Mover of them of the state of our foreign relations a: this cri tical moment ; and he was sure that the infuence of England would be diminished in the eyes d foreign Powers if her Parliament appeared indifferent to the passing transactions of the Continent. On ttis ground he considered the Noble Lord to have acted lightly in calling the attention cf Parliament to them. A wise discretion had Leen used in not having pressed the question on the notice of Parliament at an earlier pe riod; but it would be extraordinary indeed if the Par liament had separated without expressing an opinion on a subject so closely connected with our facings and our interests. But though he concurred with tae Noble Secretary in objecting to the production-of the papers, he must declare that his Noble Friend did aot give the House a comprehensive account of the state of the case, or afford much precise informatipn on it, however satisfactorily he might have answered the Noble Mover on some particular points—!Hear).— Having listened with much attention to the proposition of the Noble Baron, it was impossible for him not to feel interested, particularly on two questions alluded to by him ; the first, the condition of that unfortunate country—unfortunate so long; but henceforward, he hoped, unfortunate no longer—he meant Greece. It was impossible for any man who had his feelings in the right place not to have felt pity for the sufferings, and an in terest in the fate of that wretched country; but it was necessary for persons holding the offices of Government I —he had himself felt it necessary when in office—to check that personal feeling of sympathy, and not to allow themselves as Miniaters to be influenced in their political conduct by feelings which may be most honour. able to them as individuals; and though the Members of the Government who framed the Treaty on the sub ject of Greece felt compassion for long and many suf ferings, yet that was not the ground on which it was framed, nor would it be just or expedient that the mea sures of the Government should be regulated by a spirit which might naturally and creditably regulate the con duct of the Noble Mover in his individual character.— The object of the British Government was not to in dulge such a spirit, and the instructions given to the Noble Duke would prove that the Treaty was not founded on an abstract wish to rescue Greece from the domination of Turkey. But the real fact was, that the state of that country for years had been such as to ex cite considerable alarm and anxiety among the Powers of Europe, and it clearly appeared, that if that condi tion was not put an end to, the con'equence would be universal strife and confusion. The object, then, was, not to rescue Greece from the thraldom of Turkey, but to prevent the explosion of a general war. 0,1 that ground the protocol was justified, and also the subse quent treaty of July 1827, and on the same English principle, in the more direct and coercive measures re cently adopted. But, however, the object of the Govern meat was, that we should not proceed any length. If that treaty, which intended to establish a good under standing, and serve the common interest of the parties to it, had not been in existence, Russia would have gone to war with Turkey long since, on separate grounds of complaint, or even on the same. This treaty thus gave us an advantage in delaying her operations, and has had this good effect beside, that to it we owe the assurance of his Imperial Majesty of his disinterested intentions in waging the war—assurances in which I concur with my Noble Friend, in placing my reliance. As to Portugal, no man can look at the transactions there without feel ing emotions which it is impossible to express. There is nothing in what has occurred in that country which enables me, or those who acted in the Government with me, to account for the circumstance of Don Miguel's violating the promises he made, and the oaths that he swore. There is something in his tergiversation Inez. plicable to me on any ground—something which I can neither reconcile either with the general principles of honour and good faith, or with his sense of his own in terest and obligations to his brother and King. in fact, Don Miguel's conduct was such as he could not cha racterise without wing language to which he could not with propriety give utterance. But as to the nature of cur relations with Portugal, he could not see that they were affected by the character of the internal go vernment of that country, nor could he allow that we were bound by an ancient treaty to defend its Govern ment against internal revolutions. Our Government never acted on that principle. In 1820, when the autho rity of the King was destroyed by a rebellion, we did not interfere to restore him to his power. He (LordGoderich) did not love revolutions—that is speculative revolutions -.—Goo forbid he should not allow the people the right of seeking a remedy for real grievances —but least of all did he like revolutions effected by the army; for it hap pened that the military agents in effecting a revolution were the first to help in putting it down. For instance, the revolution of Naples, which was caused by the military, was, if not put down by them, certainly ,aban- I doned by them, for they ran away and refused to fight for it—(A laugh). So the revolution attempted against the Constitution, and of the same nature, was the-recent insurrection against Don Miguel. But after the King of Portugal had suppressed the revolution of 1820, feel-' ing uneasy in his situation, he applied to the British Government for military assistance, but the Government refused it, declaring that though they were bound and ready to defend Portugal against external attacks, they were not justified in interfering in internal dissen tious between the King and the people. Then, to come to the Constitution, which wits said to have originated with England , when , in truth. t h e English .h a n N proceeded w i th ad the In C o o r n e sti g t o uti d o o n w of ith Ch i i t na t they from Den Pedro himself; be acted judi ciously Gov er n menttti do and wisely in giving Portugal that Consti tution. Portugal acted wisely in accepting it, and most unwisely in getting rid of it; but when that Con stitution arrived in Portugal, though it proceeded from the most legitimate source—the King, by his own grace and favour,—it excited fears and alarm, not only in the Court of Spain, but in the whole Spanish people. The consequence was intrigue ) and the demonstration of force on the part of Spain against the Constitutional state of Portugal. To protect Portugal against this menaced attack we sent troops to Portugal—while there, they, by their presence, certainly tended to uphold the Con stitution, and if they had remained there it would be in existence still; but then those troops being no longer neces'arythere for thepurposecontemplatedbythe treaty, could not be left there any longer without a breach of the general principles of international law ; and, how. 'ever closely England was connected with Portugal, the British Government could not in wisdom or justice de part from her march of general principles on account of their predilection for one particular State, or in one particular case. He would not enter into comparisons or contrasts between our feelings for one State or indi• vidual and those entertained for another; but he would assert generally and abstractedly, that there was nothing in the present position of England, embarrassed as she may be by some recent events abroad, to stain her ho nour or lower her dignity in the eyes of Europe—nothing to take from that respect which the nations took good care to feel and display towards her—because they knew we were honest and useful friends, such as they would be glad to have recourse to in their hour ot reverses; nor is there any thing in our public measures inconsis tent with a more liberal and dignified policy. The Duke of WELLING roN—Thou g h I think that your Lordships must be entirely satisfied with the answers that have been given to the Noble Lord who moved this question, by my Noble Friends who have preceded me, yet I cannot allow this question to be put without troubling the House with a very few observa tions. I certainly do not blame the Noble Lord for bringing forward his motion on the present occasion, but at the same time I cannot allow .hat the Govern ment is to blame because they have not given occasion in the course of the Session to a similar discussion ; and, indeed, it should be observed, that they could only have done so by adopting one of those measures which the Noble Lord had on a former night called on them to carry into execution; that is to say, either by bringing forward a vote of credit—but do not see why we should do that, as I am happy to say that we stand in need of no such measure—(hear, hear); or by making a communication to Parliament of some course which his Majesty was about to adopt. I do not, however, see that there was any occasion for the Government to do either one or ocher of these things, and, therefore, though the Noble Lord has no doubt adopted a wise discretion in bringing forward his present motion, 1. think that we Asir have done ;he same in not introducing a measure far which we could not see any occasion— (Hear). But, at the same time, let me say that we have used no concealment in this question. No Noble Lord in this House has asked any question—no Gentleman in the other House of Parliament has proposed any, which either name Noble or Right Hon. Friend of mine has not been prepared to answer ; and, therefor; if we have not already had a discussion on this subject, it is because it has not been thought proper to have it : and in this respect I certainly think that you haveexercised a wise discretion; and I, for one, will say that I feel in. finitely obliged to you for not having forced his Ma jesty's Government into premature explanations. It is certainly true that these transactions are still carrying on, and it would therefore be very inconve nient to Government and to other persons, to have these documents laid before the House in all the extent to which such information ought to be carried—(hear) ; while to produce one or two papers only, would be to give merely partial information, or worse than nothing. 'Diet which we desire is, that when the whole of the transactions are closed, the House should receive the fullest information on the subject, and that it sh• uld be laid open to the fullest discussion on all points. With respect to the first topic on which the Noble Lord touched in the course of his speech—l mean the trans actions which are at present carrying on in the East—l beg to say that from the time when I first began to have any thing to say to the political government ot this country, which is now about fourteen years ago, it has been my most anxious object, and I know that it has also been the anxious object of the Government, to maintain peace between Russia and Turkey. I am speaking in the hearing of those who know this fact as Well as I do, and they can bear me out in my statement. Such being the case, I cannot help - imagining that the Noble Lord has pronouncsd a very extraordinary opinion when be supposes that, it is our desire to see Turkey disjointed— and not only ours, but that of all Europe besides, with out even excepting the Emperor of Russia himself; for I have his authority, or at least the authority of his Minister, to say that the Emperor does not at all desire the destruction, or even the dismemberment of the Turkish Empire; and with respect to the transactions at St. Peteisburgb, to which my Noble Friend (Lord • Goderich) has alluded, and in which I took an active part, I can confidently state that they were entirely founded on the anxious desire which this country felt to maintain peace between all European States. In the instructions that I received on that occasion, this was not only the peculiar object that I was required to have in view, but it was absolutely made a sine qua non of the whole—(Hear, hear); and I was forbidden to con clude any thing with respect to the affairs of Greece, if it was intended that war should be the means by which that arrangement was to be carried into execution. But the Noble Lord said, that in that case the Emperor was deceived. All I know on that subject is, that the Em- peror actually saw my instructions, for I showed them to him myself—at least that part of them in which that particular principle was enjoined; but then, says the Noble Lord, we must be drivellers to expect to be able to carry into execution such an arrange ment without employing a military force. Incoming to such a conclusion we certainly may have been deceived, but let me ask your Lordships to look at the peculiar situation of Turkey and Greece at the moment when this measure was in agitation. They had then been at war together for a period of six years, and it was gene rally supposed that the Greek navy was greatly superior to that of the Turks; besides this, Turkish army after Turkish army had been destroyed in the Morea, and it was confidently presumed that Greece would be able to keep the field, while the very thing that was most es sential on the side of the Turks—viz. the possession of a Reet—was not in existence. Under these circum stances, this Government thought that there was a very good chance for successful mediation between the two, and, above all, it thought that that tnediatirm, with the assistance of Russia, might have been the means of preserving peace between the Turkish and Rus ,4ian Empires. Such, then / was *the principal object which this country had in view, and which se,. the origin of the Treaty of last July. Peace was rt.e p r i n . eiple that was held oat in that Triety ; it was the r ciple when I took charge of the Government, in th e month of January ; and it is the principle whi h is still in existence—(Hear). It was with this View that it w as recommended to his Majesty to holdthe language which he did at the commencement of the present ;lesbian o f Parliament. It was in that view that is e have will per severed, and if we have failed, at lea 4 it is not owing to any fault of ours, but to causes over which we crud have no controul. and to circumstances over which, when we first came into office, we could not possibly have any controul. In making this observation, lam not imputing blame to any one, but I only say so much to show that they were circum,tances which we could not possibly' contreul, and, in point of fact, the article in question had actually been issued six weeks before the meeting of Parliament, and six weeks before rp.‘r coming into office. My Noble Friend (Lord A herder n) has ge ne so fully into the rest of the question, that there is hardly any necessity for my making any further statement. [ cannot, however, help pointing out, that the circum stances of the war in which Russia is at present • ngaged, have made a material alteration in the affairs of Europe, and must necessarily have had a material influence over our negociations between the States, so as to have delayed considerably the object which we have had in view up to the resent time, Pnd which, in fact, we ate carrying on at the present moment.— And now, having said thus much on this topic, I will advert to the other subject introduced by the Noble Lord. At the period when Parliament met, a British force was in possession of Lisbon, and it was settled that it should come away at the moment that Don Miguel arrived in that country ; it was like wise settled that the Prince Regent should return to Portugal immediately ; and I think that this was a pro. per arrangement, he having entered into engagements at Vienna, for the support of the C nstittiounal prin ciples of Portugal; and likewise in this c witty, during his passage through it to Portugal, and to which we were more immediate parties. I pettedly agree with what has fallen from my Noble Friend (Lord ode rich) as to the most extraordinary conduct• of the Prince Regent, by which he broke through all his pledges, and that so soon atter his arrival in Portugal, as to show what little scruple he made of breaking all his engagements, whether made to his Sovereign and his brother, or to those Allies on whom he counted most. But it was certainly ow, that within a very few days after his arrival in Portugal, he had manifested his intentions; and the moment that it was perceived by oar Ambassador at Lisbon, he did what he could to prevent such a step, by immediately sending aw a y the means by which the Prince Regent would be en abled to carry his design into execution—by sending that money away which had been supplied to the Prince Re gent through this Government. This was the only mea. , sure which it was in the power' of our Ambassador to adopt, and it was adopted : besides wh.ch, our stated tention was to leave the British troop, for a short time at Lisbon, in order to give the Prince Regent the ap. pearance of the conntensnce of the EngltshGovernment. These,however,were likewise recalled ; and from that day to this, there was not an act of his Government against i which we had a right to remonstrate that bad not , been made use of for that purpose. As soon as any de cided intention was manifested by him of openly as suming the title of Bing, the diplomatic functions of our Ambassador had been broken off; and as soon as that measure had actually been carried into execu tion, our Ambassador left Lisbon, and every means were taken to manifest the disapprobation that this Government entertained towards his conduct. Among other things, the ' Noble Lord had talked of the blockade of Oporto, and had complained that it was admitted and notified in a hurry. The truth is, that it was necessary to respect that blockade in ac cordance with former decisions, and on account of our own practice: It became our duty to make the merchants of this country acquainted w ith the block ade, though it was not notified to us in the regu lar form in which such transactions are usually notified, and the adoption of which form wculd have given to the blockade greater extension and effect than it actually possessed. The truth is, that owing to the suspension of the diplomatic relations between the two countries, the notification could net be communicated to us with all the usual regularity. The way in which the block ade was notified to us, was by finding it announced in the Lisboa Gazette. It was found that in former in stances blockades had been respected which were noti fied to us in a similar manner. We could not do other wise. It is true that there were some irregularities in carrying this blockade into execution—the fact being. that some ships got out of the port, and some also got into the Douro; but as far as the Government was coo cerned, I believe the transaction was perfectly regular, and such as we could not refuse to respect. No man re grets more than I do—and the Noble Lord will, I dare say, admit that I have some reason to regret—the situa tion in which Portugal has been brought. No man teas more strongly than I do the advantage of our alliance and intimacy with the Portuguese nation. Bet I must say, that having carefully looked over all the treaties between the two countries, and considered the transac tions in which thrse treaties had been carried into ex ecution, not only formerly but recently,and particularly during the last 50 years, it appears to me that we have no right to interfere in tarrying into execution any par ticular measure of Government in Portugal. I could quote several instances, and during the last six years especially,when we have positively refused to guarantee the Constitutions that have existed there, or to interfere with the relations beween the Sovereign and the sub ject, or to have any thing to do with the internal con cerns of the kingdom of Portugal ; and when we find that parties are divided—one in favour of one particular fotm, and others against it—it is surely the part of a wise Government to wait and see the result of the con test, before we mixed ourselves in it. This is the part of a Government Oat wishes to preserve the alliance with that country before we decide on the line of con duct it may be expedient for us to pursue. We cer tainly do find ourselves in this situation. We have re• cognized the sovereignty of Don Pedro; and of course, the sovereignty of his daughter, arising from his abdi. cation. At the same time we have clearly no right to Interfere in the internal affairs of that kingdom; cer tainly not before we know what line the rightful Mo. narch, according to our recognition, may himself take with regard to these events. We have no right, and I will say, we have no inclination to interfere, until we know what he will do; because we cannot know what course good policy may dictate when we are apprised of his in tentions,and of his means to carry his object into execu tion. I can quote, not only the instance of our refusal to guarantee the Constitution of 1820-1 mean the Republican Constitution but another instance still more in point, when our troops lately went to Portugal. I will answer for it, that the Commander of those troops had positive instructions to interfere in no manner with the disputes and commotion: of the country, and that his attention was confined strictly to the rightful object nat for (loi this tim of the • Carl tha in Tui *hi me Lei out abl sati pre • apt ph cos die anc top Loi to deo wh! Nh losi gin Nol wh lan 6th . froi `l . of his of ma' ado con por to sigi tha 1 Ha the cot tO I not Eu Call bui Nei the hal tho by eife •ot anc Ma ,1 .1 1 1 .1 II t i t a a a I] / , I 1 h I : tt 1 r •r 1 di fa cc • th ,d as C PI di 't . 4 I • I 0 . a O oi ! of he o ui , f • h i al 'et! el eh ' f i , t , C , I • 'lll &CI 1 f ti , 11 Pe I ol CI a( .1a r I hi dr oe ifi ee e ix' ai al cn , act i fc rid hat to or fly ore on dd or •f 1 in te, it I , I ist, i era e 1 en ke ra e 1 vei Ile 7 tl tei w I sin et 're Claw