Star. — London, England, 1802-03-13 00:00:00

'e PARLIAMENTART PROCEEDINGS. HOUSE OF LORDS, FRIDAY, MARCH xi. The fevenl Bills before the Houle were forwarded in their refpettive Rages; among there was the Greenland Whale Fio►ery, which was read a third time and paired, and a Melfage fent to acquaint the Commons therewbh. The Exchequer Bills Loan Bill, the Cinnamon Duty, the Annual Indemnity Bill, and one Private Bill were brought up from the Commons by Mr. ALIZAIRDI R. Two Private Bills were brought up by Sir C. Bummer. 'Elide were feverally read a fir* time. The Order for the further tronfideration of Crewe's Divorce 818, which originally Rood for Monday, was difcharged, and a new Order made for confidering the fame on Friday next. Scotch Appeal..—Luthian and Others, v. Henderiun, mad Co. The SOLICITOR RR A L was heard in continuation, and at confident& length, relative to this cafe, the further hearing of which Mar Lurrlfhips poltpnoed till Monday. HOUSE OF COMMONS. A Meffage from the Lords, informed the Houk their Lord kips had agreed to the Greenland Whale Siam Bill, and to kveral private Bills. The Mutiny Bill was read &third time and Mr. SARGENT relented an Minute of the err r i c it a the °f lee of Ordnance, for the months of April and May s Bos. Sir W. Limon brought up the Report of the Clergy Non- Reddenee Bill, which was read and agreed to, and the Bill or dered to be read a third time to-morrow. Mr. W. ELIOT brought up the Marine Mutiny Bill, which was read a lb* time, and ordered to be read a fecond time to lIMITOW. Mr. A brought up the Report of the &woolen Bill, which was read and agreed to, and the Bill ordered to be read a third time to-marrow. The Houk refolval itfcif into a Committee, to confider of the appointment of an intpedtor of certain Felons under fen twee of tranfportation, when a Refolution was agreed to. em powering his Mikity to appoint (itch an infpcetor, with a falary not exceeding 35c1 per Annum. The Houle being Wonted, the Report was ordered to be re mixed to-morrow. TREL..IID. Mr.WarsrsALL, from the Commit!lours of the Cußoms to Ireland, prefented an Account of the Exports and Imports of that Country, which were ordered to lie on the Table. Mr. Coatis moved toren Abftraft of the Receipts and lilacs of the Exchequer is Ireland, front the rich of January am, to the st► of January slioa.—Ordered. Mr. Comas prefented an Account of the Receipts and Dif borfements of the Conuniflionen of Accounts in Ireland, from the sstb of December !Soo, to the asth of December 18o1— which was ordered to lie on the Table. Mr. C 11017014 from the Treafury of Ireland, prefented an Account Clewing how the monies granted for the Stroke of Ire land, for the year aor, had been difpofed of, which was or dered to lie on the Table. An Account of the Receipts and Iffues of the Treafury of Ireland, for the year slice—which was alfo ordered to lie on the Table. Mr. Cozy moved the Order of the Day for pi ing into a Committee upon certain AEls refpeaing the Revenue of Ireland. The fame being rcad, Mr. Coaav moved, that the Account prefented on Wednefday b e rMr. Crofton, of the Per. suanent Charges of Ir eland, be referred to the Paid Committee. Mr. FOSTER Paid, he wifhed to afk his Right Hon. Friend, what his obje& was in referring this Account to the Committee ? Mr. CORRY faid, that his Right Hon. Friend, who was fo converfant with all the buf►nets of Ire land, could not but know that tl►ere were certain Permanent charges on the Confolidated Fund of Ireland, which charges were founded upon Ads of Parliament, all of which had paired under the eye of the Right Hon. Gentleman himfelf, except one, which palled lark Se lion. Thefe Charges, the Right Hon. Gentleman muff know, were in their nature permanent, and invariable in their amount. The Houle would, perhaps, be furpri zed, when he acquainted them, that altbou7,h thefe charges were permanent and invariable, yet there was no permanent provifion made for paying them out of the Exchequer of Ireland. Therefore the f►tuation in which they at prefent flood, was this— there were permanent Charges, without any per manent Fund for defraying them. The amount of thefe charges was no lets than between three and four millions. The firff Item in this catalogue of charges was, the Intereft of the Debt of Ireland, and the Sinking Fund, which every one knew muff be provided for. The next was the Civil Lift, granted in the fame manner as it was in this country, and upon a fimilar principle alto, viz. upon a valuable confideration given in lieu of it by the Crown. Thefe were unprovided for. It was unneceffary for him to enumerate all the par• titulars of thefe charges; it was fufficient to in form the Honfe of their nature. It was now pro pofed to renew there Grants of the Irifh Revenue, which, in Ireland, had always been voted annual ly. It was propofed to renew them to meet the burthens of the year—burthens which, in their amount, could admit of no queftion—burthens which did not depend upon any vote of Supply— burthens which were not now to be granted, but which, neverthelefs, now remained to be provided for. It was to provide a Fund to meet thefe charges, that he now propofe' to continue the bills Revenue Ads, and, he believed, a more un exceptionable Motion could not be brought before the Houfe. Mr. FOSTIR Girl, his Right Hon. Friend had not anfwered his queftion, the °kid' of which was to afcertain the ground of the prefent Motion.— The Right Hon. Gentleman bad faid, that there were permanent Charges in Ireland, for which no permanent Provifion was made, but he had not Rated whether he now propofed to make thefe Grants permanent ; he took it for granted no fuch intention was entertained. If the Right Hon. Gentleman now intended to make them perma nent, it would aid a complete change in the fyf tem of the bilk Eftablifhment, without any notice to the People of Ireland that any fuch plan was in agitation, or without any one Member from that part of the United Kingdom being apprized that fuch a Motion was to be made. He therefore mita intreat his Right Hon. Friend not to pulls his Mo. tion in the manner he now propofed. If this was a propefition only for continuing the Revenue for two months, in conformity to the Supply which ad Necn voted, he mould not oppofe it. But in ' , lion, this plan of voting the whole Revenue :, and as it were in the lump, was neither ,le to the pradice of the Parliament of Ire nor of Great Britain—becaufe by this mode feeding, all power of examining and difcuff fubjed in detail was precluded, as the de the Bills were not given. The objea new thole Tax Bills, but he fhould be glad to know - whether they had been voted in a Committee of Supply ? the forms of Parliament required, before any meafure of this kind could be carried into ef fed, that they ihould be voted in Committees of Supply and Ways and Means. Thefe were very falutary forms, which the wifdom of the Houle re quired, and which it would be improper to dn . - penfe with. But infiead of complying with circle forms, it was propofed to continue the whole of this Revenue, as if they were merely continuing a temporary Statute, without any one Member from Iceland knowing of any fuch intention ; for one, he protefted he - had no notion of fuch an intention being entertaned. • Mr. CORE r raid, he had flattered himfelf that lie had fatisfaaorily anfwered the queftion of his Right Hon. Friend, at lean, as he underftood it. He now underftood the Right Hon. Gentleman to advert only to the mode and form of the proceed ing, and that he did not oppofe the objea of his Motion. With regard to the queftion which had been pmpofed to lum,he begged kave to fay, that it was not his intention at prefent to propofe to make thefe Bills permanent ; but he fhould think himfelf much deficient in his duty, and deferring of blame, if he was not now ready to Rate' he rea fon why he was not now prepared to propofe to the Houfe to make a permanent provifion for thefe permanent charges. He accounted for not being now prepared to propofe fuch a meafure, by call ing to the recolleaion of the Houfe all the circum fiances of the prefent times, by Rating the doubts that fr9m thefe circumftances exifted with regard to the future Eftablifhments of the Empire, and alto the doubts which he entertained refpcfting the future Revenue of Ireland, which it was impoffi ble at prefent to afccrtain. Thefe were the reafons why he was not at prefent prepared to propofe the making thefe Bills permanent, which he fhould 1 otherwire have thought it his duty to do. Think ing as he did, that it was the duty 4 that Houfe to provide for the public creditors of Ireland, and to give them the fame degree of certainty and con fidence with regard to their Annuities, that the public creditors of England enjoyed ; he was alfo equally convinced, that it was the duty of that Houk to provide for the Civil Lift of Ireland, which the Parliament of that country had granted to the Crown for a very valuable Confideration.— Thinking, upon thefe grounds, that the good faith of the Country required that the provifion for thefe charges fhould be made permanent, he fhould have thought it his duty, following the example which had been fet in this Country, to have pro ) pofcd a Bill to make them permanent. Upon thefe grounds, he hoped, he fhould, at prcfent, Rand enured for only propofing to continue thefe Bills for one year, and he trotted, in that Motion, he fhould not be op fed by his Right Hon. Friend. With regard to the mode of proceeding, which he propofed to adopt on the prefent occafion, it was not for him to call to the recolleaion of the Right Hon. Gentleman, that in the Committee of Ways and Means, provifion was made for the Services voted in the Committee of Supply, but he mull be aware, that money bufinefs might originate in a Committee of the whole Houfe, as well as in a Committee of Supply. The Houfc, always true to the principles of its own Proceedings, and al ways on its guard for the proteaion of its own forms, laft year adopted a fimilar propofition, which he had brought forward under fimilar cir cumfiances, and very nearly on the fame day of the Seffion. He did not then prefume to be mailer of the form of proceedings in the Houle, but fub mitted to thole who were able, from their fuperior experience, to guide him, and was juftified in his condo& by the approbation of the Houfe ; and what had been adopted ha year, he confidered himfelf as jultified in taking as a precedent on the prefent occafion. Upon thofe Proceeding., there fore,he now relied for his jollification. The Right Honourable Gentleman, much to the regret of the Houfe, was not prefent in his place, lad Sef fion,but when he was informed of what then paned he trufted he would no longer objed to this mode of proceeding. Mr. FOSTER rofe to explain :—he wifhed to know, whether there was any vote of the Committee of Supply for more than two months? if there was, not, he was not aware how they could vote ways and means for the whole year, when the Supply was only for two months. The SPEAKER raid, that the proceeding now propofed to be adopted, was the fame as that of laft year ; and that which had been adopted by the judgment of the Houfe, he was bound to con fider as regular. At the fame time, it was compe tent to any Member to oed to this mode of pro ceeding ; and when the Houfe direifted a different courfe to be purfoed, be fhould fubmit. Mr. Foarsa fair], he had not made himfelf un derftood. The Ad of laft Seffion for continuing the Irifh Revenue Ads, was certainly for one year ; but then the Supply had been voted for a year : yet the cafe was now different, for the Sup. ply was voted for two months, and it was propofed to continue the Revenue for a year. The SPEAKER faid, that with regard to the laft point, there was, at the commencement of every Seffion, a general vote of Supply, which he under flood to be a fuflicient foundation for any Member to make a propofition fimilar to the prefent. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHESVER raid, he felt great difficulty in offering any opinion upon a point of form, after what had fallen from the Chair, in which the forms of the Houk had been fo dif tinaly explained; he alfo felt confiderable difficulty in giving an opinion upon a point of form, con trary to that of the Right Hon. Gentleman behind .him (Mr. Fofter). The Right Hon. Gentleman bad urged, that there mutt be a vote of the Com mittee of Supply, to juftify the Houfe in voting for the continuance of thefe Revenue Bills. Un doubtedly, whatever was voted for the current fervice of the year, mull firft be voted in the Com mittee of Supply ; but the propofition his Right Hon. Friend meant to make was, not to defray the current fervices of the year, but to provide for permanent charges. The Committee of Ways and Means was appointed at the commencement of every Seffion ; bat in that Committee, nothing ... . . votes! in the Committee of Supply. What his Right Hon. Friend meant to propofe was, not to vote a Supply for the public Cervices of the year, but to provide for the intereft of the exifting debt of Ireland. The pradice in the two countries dif fered : it was ullial in Ireland to provide annually for the permanent charges; in this country, they were provided for at once. In the 'aft year, it was thought proper, under the circumftances of the times, to follow the pradice of the Parliament of Ireland, by only voting the Revenue Bills of Ireland for one year. The caufes which led the Houle to adopt that mode of proceeding laft year, would, in his opinion, induce the Houfe to ad in the fame manner on this occafion. It was not ne ceffary for him to Rate the reafons why he thought the Houfe ought to follow the example of laft year, as they had been very ably enumerated by , his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Cony). The only difference between the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Foftcr) and him was this, the Right Hon. Gen tleman thought it neceffary that there fhould be a previous vote in a Committee of Supply ; on the other hand he contended that they could not be voted in a Committee of Supply, becaufe they were not for the current fervice of the year, but to defray the intereft of the debt of Ireland. and that it would conlequently have been irregular and diforderly to propofe them in the Committee of Ways and Means. Mr. Forme faid, that it was the pradice in Ireland always, in the firfk inftance, to vote the intereft of the debt in the Committee of Supply. He did not mean at prefent to go into the fubjed, but he certainly admitted that the Houfe could not he too Elm al in fatisfying the Public Creditors.— He merely meant to object to this plan of voting fuch a number of duties and taxes in the bulk, fi) as to prevent the Houfe from examining into them in detail. He fhould not oppofe continuing thefe duties, under the prefent circumftames, for two' months, but he thought it irregular to vote them for the whole year. Lori CASTLEREAGH raid, he did not fee the force of his Right Hon. Friend's objection, becaufe in voting the continuance of there duties the Houfe could not grant a greater fupply than had already been voted. At an early period of the Seffion a Supply for three months was , voted, and after wards there was another vote of Supply for two months. Therefore, the Houfe was at prefent in the situation of having voted the Supplies for Ire land, at leaft as far as related to the Military Ser vice, which was the molt important, for five months ; now there fupplies, together with the permanent charges, the amount of which was be fore the Houfe, would amount to a larger rum than the duties which it was now propofed to vote, therefore the Ways and Means would, at moll, do no more than cover the Supplies now voted. It was true that in the Ira Parliament the provifion for the intereft of the National Debt, and the Sinking Fund, was always voted in the Commit tee of Supply, but it really always appeared to him to be.a very ftrange proceeding to vote that annually which was acknowledged to be a perma nent charge : he always confidered it as a mere matter of form, not founded either in juftice or neceffity. There was no fubftantial difference be tween the Committee of Supply and a Committee of the whole Houfe, becaufe it was open to any Member to oppofe any of there duties, as well in a Committee of the whole Houfe as in a Commit tee of Supply. The CHANCELLOR OF THI Exottoprz role to explain. It appeared that the permanent charges of Ireland, for which they were to provide, amounted to t 49 3,9611. and for this charge, a provifion could not be made in the Committee of Ways and Means. The military Cervices being for the current fervice of the year, muft be voted in the Committee of Supply, and afterwards provided fur in a Committee of Ways and Means. Mr. VANSITTART faid, he faw no objeilion to the prefent mode of proceeding,which he contended was pettedly regular.—The Route then refolved it felt into a Committee, Mr. Hobhoufe in the Chair. Mr. CORRY Paid, that after what had palled upon this occafion, and laft Seffion, it would be unneceffary for him to obtrude himfelf upon the Committee, by going into any detail upon the fubjea : he &mild, however, be ready to enter into any explanation in his power, if any Member required it ; at prefent, however, he Ihould move the refolutions without further preface. Mr. CORRY then moved the following Refolu tions, which were agreed to : " That it is the opinion of this Committee, that tftc Duties which are continued by an Ad of the hit Sellion of Parlia ment, intitled, An Adt to continue till the asth of March, 11102. certain Ads of the IA hellion of the Parliament of Ireland, for granting certain Duties to his Mikity, and not repealed ; and alto certain Duties granted in the fame Selfion ; the duration of which is limited to the asth of March, 1802, null be further continued to the asth of March, iBO3. " That it is the opinion of this Committee the Ads of the laR hellion of Parliament for continuing and amending feveral Ada for the better colledlion of the Revenue of Ireland, than be continued." The Houfe reftimed, and the Report was or dered to be received to morrow. TRINIDAD. Mr. CANNING faid, he role to give notice, that he ilsould on Friday next move for certain inform ation relative to the cultivation and population of the Eland of Trinidad. The information was what he wished to have legally in his poirellion, previous to making the motion of which he had given notice, refpeling the file of the unclaimed lands in that Wand. his npini at mice, agrecabl )and, no of prneel ing the f tails of I NCOM k TAX. Mr. Jowls raid, that on riling to bring forward the motion of which he had given notice, upon the fubjeft of the Income Tax, he was ready to admit that the Right Hon. Gentleman who now held the office of Chancellor of the Exchequer, had not introduced that meafure ; he therefore did not mean to implicate him in the mifchief it had done. He fhould not go into the hiftory of that tax on this day, and the more efpecially as the late Chancellor of the Exchequer was not in the Houfe. He had hoped that Honourable Gen tleman would have attended in his place, to have heard the few obfervations he fhould make, for he mull own it was ratherirkfome to call on the fuc not that he meant to do fo on this day, for he was not now going to move the repeal of that grixsotts tax, however - he might deem it his duty to fubmit Inch a motion hereafter. He fhould remind the Houfe, that the very tira moment the Tax %%:ts introduced, he had Rated that he thought it, in point of theory, one of the heft ever brought for ward, but that in point of pradice it would prove one of the worfl. It was no uncommon thing for that which was theoretically good to be prat!ii cally bad ; and he believed there never had been any one Public Aft brought forward and pallid into a law, which fo plainly and demonflrably proved that theory and praftice might be at va riance with each other. He entertained come doubts, whether this Tax, as it regarded a parti cular let of people, would not appear to have been founded in error. He might be wrong, and if he fhould prove fo, he hoped his Majelly's Crown Lawyers would let him right—he lhould not explain himfelf on this part of thefubjed at prefent. He willed, if the Houfe would allow him, that the Clerk might read the ot fec. of the 8 and 9 Wm. 111. c. 24. which exempted the Bank from the payment of Taxes. The claufe was read, and was to this effea Be it further enac t.a, that the common capital and principal Rock, and all arrears in the hands of the Governor and Company of the faid Bank, or any profit made thereby, (ball be exempted from the payment of any taxes during the continuance of the raid Bank." The Hon. Member continued—lie faid, he had moved the reading of this claufe ix order to throw out he hint; he thould not venture upon the fob jed now, but fhould call the attention of the Houfe to it on a future day. He was fearful the Right Hon. Gentleman oppofite would think he aded unfairly in afking him whether lie meant to repeal the Tax? he,thought it would have cealed by this time, as a War Tax. He muft,own, that either in War or Peace, it was a tax at which the liberty of the Britith fubjea revolted—he hoped, by perfeverance, to fee a total repeal of it before that event took place, which might putit out of his power to continue his exertions in garliament. —He obferved, that Notices had been already fent forth, with a view to obtAin the generel fenti. ment of the people as to this tax—he was informed by the worthy Alderman behind him, (Mr. Al derman Curtis) that the Livery of London had given notice of their intention to meet in Coin mon Hall, in order to petition for a Repeal of the Tax. He had no doubt but that great City would give a tone and temper to the telt of the kingdom. If it thould be the with of the people of this country plainly expreffed, that this Tax thould be repealed, he would then put himfelf for ward in a Rate of preparation to fecond their willies. He really believed he comprehended the . whole nature of the Tax, in Rating it not only as oppreffive, but a Tax on common honefty ; it was a tax that put the, morality and religion of the country to the tell ; he was well informed that the evafion of ie was beyond all calculation. He repeat. ed that it was a tax which was odious, whether in war or peace ; and he thould do every thing in his power to relieve the Public from fuch a burthen. He had not yet made up his mind what propolition he fhould bring forward—if peradventure anything lhould ftrike him, he would immediately fubmit it to the Houfe—he was not aware it would be in his power. At prefent he fhould only move for the produaion of certain Papers; and as two accounts upon the fubjea were already on the Table, he hoped there would be no objeaion to his Motion. He concluded by moving, " That there lhould be laid on the Table an Account of the produce of the Tax on Income, for the year ending the sth of • April, tBO2, as far as the fame could be made up and eflimated, diffinguilhing what had been re ceived by the Commercial Commiffioners." Sir Rosser Burrow faid, he rote to objed to the produdion of the Papers moved, becaule he underflood his Right Hon. Friend, (the Chancellor of the Exchequer), had exprefied a with, that the fubjea thould not be agitated till the produaion of the Tax had been afccrtained. If his Majefty's Minifter ['mold feel the neceflity of relieving the Public from the operation of the Tax, he ought to have the merit of doing it. The meafure ought to proceed from hirn alone. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had not given his opinon, whether he intended to repeal or modify the tax? If, after the produce of the tax thould be afcertained, the Hon. Gentleman thould think it necefrary to bring for ward his fads, there probably might be lel; objet. tion to them than at the prefent moment. The CHANCELLOR of the ExcetcLufa laid, he fo far concurred with his Hon. Friend, that he wifhed the Hon. Gentleman at leall to partite his motion. It certainly was his intention to lay before the Houfe leveret motions on the ilibjea of the Income Tax. If the Hon. Gentleman thould not be fatisfied with the nature and extent of them, he would be at liberty to make any fupplemental one he thould think proper. The Hon. Gentle man would not, he trulled, impute to hint any defire of withholding from the Houfe any informa tion; but he thought it premature to move for the amount of the tax to the sth of April next—. it would be better to wait till that pet iod arrived. It was his intention to bring forward the fubjea in a few days, and to fubmit to the Houfe his idea of the operation of the 'fax on the different clalies of the community. In exprefling this intention, he did with to have it underflood he had it in view to repeal the Tax. He was anxious its operation fhould be thoroughly underflood—the Reps here after to be taken would be the fubjeft of future confederation. He hoped the Hon. Gentlemen would content to withdraw his motion. Mr. Jo:matt, in explanation, laid, that if tl-e country was to wait until thole who propoled :t tax Should . propofe to take it off, they might W 3 t for ever. However, in confequence of the tint ments of the Right Hon. Gentleman on tit,: other fide, he had no objeEtion to withdraw his moti,»l. Mr. BUXTON obferved, that the Hon. Gentle man Should not, continently with his own decla ration, have brought forward this motion at all; for, on a former occafion, he had admitted tb.,t it was proper to defer a motion of this nature until the Ways and Means for the year Should be a • . . . . . . • e 44.4 0 1