Star. — London, England, 1825-03-04 00:00:00

r - 1-1 .~ 1 1 , ' ' ...• them ? /* 1 1 without trial.— . Having heard nothing from the Nhble Earl on that subject, he rose to give his cordial support to the motion of his Noble Friend .- He was surprtild that the Noble, Earl had not taken a more manly ground, instead otil saying that the measure was one of a general character., and not connected by name with the Catholic AssOcii., tion ; but could it be doubted that the Catholic Asso ciation was its object, when even the Petitions presented in favour of the Bill prayed that it might pass in order to ,suppress that Association? It would have been a snore creditable proceeding in the Government to legis late exclusively against that body. Had that been done, would the Noble Earlhave thought the Petitioners entitle.' to be heard ? o, from Lord Liverpool). The Noble Earl said no, and was obliged to say so, because, had he admitted their claims in that view of the case, he (Lord Grey) would have proved that they were equally entitled in the other. It was said the Orangemen had petitioned ; butt they considered themselves so little affected by the Bill, that they had merely prayed to be heard by the Comthitteesitti lig on the state of Ireland, in order to repel the calumnies with which they had been assailed. What was the character tithe measure ? It imposed a new and a severe restriction upon a public right on the a hole people of Ireland, on account of the acts of the Catholic Association. Here theo, the whole, budx of the people were to be dept ived of their rights, on, allegations of individual delinquency supported by particular facts... Now the petitioners said- that they. denied those facts, and were ready to prove that those allegations could not be maintained. Would their Lord ships not allow those individuals to vindicate themselves, and yet proceed to mulct the people of Ireland of their rights on account of their supposed delinquency ? They were charged with creating alarm ; but they said in answer, that they . had trot created alarm, and that, if it cx:sted, it was only in the breasts of those who feared that they would obtain the adjustment of their just claims. They were charged with endangering public tranquillity; but they answered, that they had produced no disturbance, and that even the King's Speech admit ted lee peace of Ireland to be more complete than at any former period. They were told that they assumed the prerogatives of Parliament and levied taxes: but they replied that they levied no tax, and what they took was from voluntary contributions, as all other societies had done since the period of the _Revolution. They were accused of having a [hack And a Red Book, and of inscribing in the Black the names of those who refu;ed to pay the tent, in order to devote them „pettecution. They denied having such a book, and offered to prove that. they had not, and made no such distinctions, at the Isar. But, said the • Noble Earl, a Committee of Inquiry is going on, let them go and he eSamined ; let Mr. O'Connell come and state his objects, every latitude . of investigation will be al io% ed. Ye., but meanwhile the Bill would pass. When Measures hostile to the liberties of the country were proposed, as the Noble Earl justly stated, they (the Op position Lords) had called for general inquiries. . Cer tautly, but what, was their object ? To investigate the grounds of,those measures before, not after they had passed. A.,Committee of Inquiry was now - sitting, would the Noble Earl suspend his Bill till their Report was received? If so, he (Lord Grey) would agree that Mr. O'Conneltand the Catholic Association should be, hard before that Commiitee. But it was an insult to say, that the Bill .shoald . first pass and that investigation might follow.. Suppose, and he thought it most likely, that it had been proved before the Committee in ques tion that none of the charges brought, against the Ca tholic Association . were founded on fact, that they were all.caluunies, and that a report to that effect should be' made to the House,ln what situation would their Lordships stand? They would have passed a law restricting the rights of the subject, and after inquiry it would be proved that there was no foundation whatever for such a law. The .Noble Earl said that in cases of, havaineat danger, hearing Petitioners apinst Bills might be init., doss • but waif' that Noble' Earl say, that great inconvaniamesi would now arise.from suspending the progress of his measure sir this Petitioners bad rescued themselves from the charges cast ,-JI O I.I. The LORD CHANCEMOR, in speaking of the Convention Act, - said, that its being still in force, - ... and . yet inadequate to prevent the existence of such body as the,Catholie. Asspciation, was perfectly suf . tto shoe the necessity of legislative interference. hat the law Might be, in Ireland he did not pre. ten grc V? know ii —he would not pre s ume to say whether , . pr9lesdings of such a Convention or Association, or hy,..whatevir daine celled; were in Ireland legal or not. *it he desired it to be clearly understood, that he was • 1 • I • ... 9p} among.thoie who considered such pkoeeedings con. s t otent with the law of this country., Because his °pi pet% was._ that it there existed in England such a body as . this Catholic Association, over-ruing or attempting tonverltile the Parliament upOn iniPortant matters of State upon which Parliameit alone cotild.and ought to legislate, and to legislate with freedom, that body would n(,)t.be a legal body. It had been said that this ki ss iciati.‘,o would not come under the Convention Act, became the persons wixf formed it were not delegated by . the people ' tn - act" in Conventior. upon matters of State.. But he begged to know what was the difference intween them? It. was true there was no antecedent delegation on the part of the people, bin there was a subsequent approbation, of their acts, and the evil was the same, whether such body had been originally dele gated, or subsequently approved by those whim they at least pretended to - represent (fienr, kear.)-- U this Bill had • stated for its object die putting citi,sip. the Roman Citholi,k . Association, be was free to confess tbat . he 'should have lika it better i because un doubtedly, it object was o pet lilt e d. the ROM= Ca. *lit Association, if .ip iiliduct was suih as the Bill tletcribed and OroriddiA against. Ile did not,. at the same titheonean to lot that , there was abr .. necessity for, the object being fi,,stated.... Ate rernent4ered .that it a former period, se )i eiqf Iris id thi , ttuii!Oir Con). moat, he introdured • Cermito9ll tor ' pit iliiiin the Societies then in existetiie l nlm th*FOlhlie du intro, duce the names of il4 kcieffepithicttlfek,feetitetideti to put down. „if ihicitild.fieen.hii.:llll,•heA4dhave pursued the awe .coorse. - . The objecvoi the ..snea. sore ,was to continue the Conves)tion•A et itt• forts... 'l)Se.Mcaeitig of the Arq,cl44o,:siii4,: ibit iOlieret i here h4:3iiittiuttecetiOn,Me.giil4?ii'‘ but .:ii).kiig iOdivi .Alsia/thadyerseed the sanse . eendnittcand.erosclied.the -stem tab -end government - Ore the people •de it dm! 1 , ~ t itlettt, deltkiiiiih r i the jtrfir"4loo of the it lealkiltaisuree ut„ihoi tismi irlrolotiewx - o di tuf4ittsofto4 ---.. .1, step/tem-, Ithephadigooe thd said 0.1'410g fh ' "lk 'l di F rites a iii Parliament -3 i ''ail' Intitinee ate Istici, which was not to be endured in any country, that be conteB.- that the same mischief had been committed as if Th ey were:a Conirention ijelegated by „the people. If the Roman Catholic Association, or any„ .her body, were, permitted to have a controul overpqpesseeedings of Cowls of .Justice , with sit minims '.bt .p o ople to aide them, what was to prevent thillrotestants from form ing similar Associations, and then where would they find the possibility of obtaining justice, when no man could be placed in the jury or witness box, who could not be challenged for something which incapacitated him from discharging his duty ? Was it not enough, therefore, that they should act upon these general prin ciples; and pass a measure which had for its object only to carry into effect the intentions pf the Convention Act? There was no special necessity for hearing any partici in this case. The general rule was, that a man could not be heard against a measure without having some particular inter eat in it. . There were cases in which the House had, and he thought very laud ably, given away ; Gut that did not affect the.general rule. In • opposition to the arguments of the Noble Earl, he called 'to the recollection of their Lordships that there-were cases in which the urgency of the danger rendered delay impossible, and Bills were passed through all their stages in one day, inflicting the heaviest punishment upon individuals. In other cases, the danger might be so great as not to allow time for the usual deliberations—where, if theleast delay were permitted, it would be impoisible to meet the danger before it be came realized. This, then, was a case in which they ought to adopt the general rule, and not delay a measure which was imperiously called for, if what it stated did apply to the con duct of the Roman Catholic Association ; and if it did not, then the Bill would not affect them. If its statements were true, then their Lordships ought to support the Bill; for if these parties had renewed the state of things Intended to be suppressed by the Con vention Act,' the Bill ought to pass to enforce the intentions of that measure. For these reasons, and thinking that Parliament had no ; right to make an exception to the general rule in this case, Ito I should oppose the motion. Lord, HOLLAND said, he not only believed that this was not the Noble Earl's Bill, but very strongly suspected he had never read it. He (Lord flolland)1 had heard with consternation the assertion of the Noble and Learned Earl, that the :existence of the Catholic Association might be according to the law in Ireland, but that it was not according to the law in England.' But the Noble and Learned Lord afterwirds explained 'himself, by adding that the Catholic Association at tempted to overrule Parliament. But if they did so, Parliament had as much power . in the one country ay the other, and why did they not proceed by some other course than that of legislation? Upon the argument respecting the hearing of Counsel, he wished to. say a few words. All the declamation of the Noble' Earl opposite (Lord LiVerpeol) about setting a precedent which would admit other parties to their bar, and in-, terrupt the business of Parliament, had been put on one side 'by the cortection of the Noble and Learned Lord, who told them that Ahem were exceptions to the general rule, that parties had been occasionally heard ; and yet not much inconvenience had resulted from it, and their Lordships had proceeded with the business of "Parliament as usual. But if the strearttor, precedents ran all one way, and that against hearing Counsel at their Lordships' Bar, he should say, that even then they ought tatake.th.F, plain , direct, and honest course, and hear these Petitionertbefore they were condemned and punished. He cared nothing far precedents in 0p.,. position to principle, but if he were to use them for the present argument. he could shew, that whatever they might be in that, or tlie,oiher House, in the Parliament : of Ireland, the stream of . Pricidents ran all in favour of hearing the Petitioners: Without detaining the House While he went into the detail of those precedents, he would merely state that Sir Theithald Butler, Counsel lor Malone, and Sir Stephen Rice were heard by the Parliament of Ireland against the very penal laws which this Catholic Association were endeavouring to get repealed, andin support of the treaty of Limerick. He thought the Noble and Learned. Lord was entitled to credit for stating that he, wished the name of the CatholiC Association had been. mentioned in theßill. For the Noble Earl opposite (Lord Liverpool) he felt, as the Noble Earl knew, great private, friendship, and high respect fpr his, private character and conduct, which be believecl_to.he incapable Of any mean artifice, Bin they were now dealing with the interests and rights of millions' and millions, and he must protest against the argument that they were not to be beard because the Catholic Association were ant named iathe • Bili. Either this was good Us the Noble Earl's argument; or it was not. And if it was , whi did hi cell upOn,their Lordships to legislate upon the notoriety„ of the pro feedings of that bod 7 ? He (Lard' Hollandiprefeisedti entertain a high opinion of thk talents and learning of 'the Leatned Gentleman who would in all polsiihilits have appeared at the bar in behalf of the people ',fire land, and he thought it 'possible that die Considerable talent and eloquence which he possessed might hive had sortie influence on theii Lordships' Minds. But if he possessed the genius of that orator whim' elo• quence shook Greece to the centre, and the worst designs that could, be imputed to him, , riot the eloquence of a DemOstheaes, with the intention Of a Catiline, could enable him to do so much harm to the character of Parliament, as they were inflicting upon themselves by the pisiing of this gn. He deClisted, that if he were.an incendiary in Irela i nct, and wished to' deluge that country in blcied, uses to revive all the worst scenes of her history, he 'llona tiPice lb being seat away hem that bar unheard and insulted. Won all the Treat principles of impartialand substantial justice, and „upon every feeling of ho- arsehe called upon their Lordshjpa not to refuse the prayer of the peddmiers. If they were determined to pass the measure ' let them at least imPreu the people of Ireland with the belief that they were easy, indulgent, kind, and generous I. sand let theta teat' fortify themselves behind the subterfuge of its being a me sure, for the purpose, of *plying that people of the right a freemen—aft to be coodmed before they were Mint Earl DARNLEY stiOPMtail the prayer of the Peti ', ttl ,n, and said that their Lordships were bound to to• :I bted with it beton they Could be justified 'in p» lug the &IL He the time was not far distant, when the real interests of the goon would be awaked .by the Legislature ; and that measure ' which could, alum arere,them,heltanted to the Catholics of Ire land. , Ile trot that upprtuoity of protesting against theßill aboke to 'comeuOiler their Lo "ids' dkciOsion. the tiiiiire'ibea divided; and the numbers were— Content's' ' . liot Catmints _ . . - . . MajOrity against hearing Counsel 111114301/0 iIIEMIIIIO 01 TIM SILL. Oen the of itiertien to the .Hettie, The:Fait:l Qf 'LIVEIiPOOT hig for the seeolid retdii that even if ha h.td been qf Ciiiholie EttialkiPutioi, rjiasbips of this but, r Assokinfloil tolie `SOMe disidigl6)2, iltitive to fin hid altelidr ‘ talkin pplace !if, he must scorftes . 'gar is 69 ••-..46 . +w • 4 - . , • of the Housc, not to conamn melt n Gran the Nhble ,t• latiy saitecedbitt, deitg a tiTati'.. ht li Cti c lettiatitu ri at e ilit: .tatbrushasislcww-4Eit Alyea Ilifillithatitlie •, • t . of taxi/ talk iv:civic-1w said ( 1 • • .• • . •'• ilikavat grak • t i :r t rifect ItiettbetraNd 'tket! df _tiii .0 1 4414 tittik i s dila 6114' 1 4 lititicf l • atioil : over be idministiatiini ..• - • • . • • • POOL Baas on • his legs, spoilt; Wing of the pill. He en the limit ardebt • stypeiter , he should still haie urged is he cutiside'red the Otoleedtn6 'injurious CAttbOlic e to Ole kettiteol th 4 alie; Ilut, • tfragfe tptleisicin whlh 411601eil . - from a Noble • Lord - (Holland) relative to his (Lord 'LiverpOol) not having taken the iflostlttanty line of, I t ar_gument, anduot having nam e die Catholic Aisocia- AI in theßill. Now be Iliou it paiticularly kruriii .that 'he" shbuld fir upiin'tha r i . poise,t, whit'he g.,,tfra "tvs+peOrdistinctly. stata in It paik bf his speesfillial . it er Sill' , had the Cattrall'ikocra i tton pthrctpilly In view': If the House was called upon to legislate upon the Catholic Association,. they were also legislating against the Orange and all other Associations at the same time. Now this took away completely the alleged partiality pf the measure. It was that extended view which he took of the question, not one merely applied to the Catholic Association. He did not, however, mean to deny that the Association was the prominent object in view. Now there were two points in which this question might be viewed. It might be looked at as a measure to prevent the evasion of the Convention Act ; this was the view the preamble of the Bill took of the subject. They might also look upon it on its own merits. The first view would not be conclusive, because he was ready to admit that W the Catholic Association is not guilty, there would not be any occa. sion to extend the Convention Act ; but he thought that the argument of his Learned Friend on the Woolsack was conclusive. The same principle was to be applied to one Association as well as to the other. He was one of those who thought that, in such a situation and in such a country, if looke4 to in all its parts with regard to its tranquillity, it "arils not consistent with the spirit of the British Constitution. No man was more ready than he was to admit the right of the subject to assemble and petition, or to take any steps which might be necessary to carry those measures into effect. It was among the most sacred rights of the people of the empire. He was prepared to deny that any assembly had not only the right to petition, but to hold permanent sittings, and to take into its consideration every case that came before it which un dertook to superintend justice, whether justly or not he would not say : but - be that as it might, any controul over the administration of justice, he must say, was inconsistent with the principles of any nation. It was impossible to look without suspicion at the circum stances under which the Association had been estab lished. The people of Ireland might be offended with the refusal of the remainder of the .privileges which they claimed as British subjects. They might come and Main their cow int, but could anybod y that . explain , plait__. __ ___,_ Any_ knows what has been done, think they ought In the course of the last few years more has been done fpr the good, peace, prosperity; and happiness of Ireland, than had been done for centuries before. The whole of the .tevenuidepaitment had been reforMed; the taxes bad been reduced ; England had taken upon herself the debt of Ireland ; and she was, he would.venture to say , taxed than any country in Europe. In addition, to 'ill this, the administration of justice has been corrected,, the Magistracy had been checked by'ae establishment of.'Petty Sesscous—these' were the benefits bestowed by England. Their . Lordol.ips would, however, see, that in the midst of all this prosperity .. avowed and ad - ;Dim! by all parties, ..this Association i assuMed a cha,. miter much iniportint and itupdong`thin it would have held in time of distress., It has. evaded the Con- vention Act, and the evils of delegation exist without there, perhaps, being real representation. He would not trespass much longer on their time, for. he - did not intend to enter into a discussion of the particular facts alleged agaiOst the - Aisociatioti.. TheAmts,rat .whihe Would not was, .that be believed the:Assoirairon. to be constituted in,the same manner in which ethers,. under similar circumstances, would be. His objection 'was, that it could not exist with Out the evil the Conven tion. Act intended to put down—(Hear ~,hear, heir); Intemperance- of language. isrul ,,natur a l ly, to.` ' be er pected at these meetings. He would not .dwell'.upan the proceedings of the .Aasociation, nor the resolutions which had been passed-there, which Could , not possibly have had any other effect than to • aggravate the evils of the country. It might be thought by the'Catholici to be the best mode, of enforcing their claims; and if they liMited themselieiliS that alone, it would` * I litiC ; but it did net so limititself, it had other objects be sides that questiOn. He had heard, that it was swit that one of the forth*: of that Aisidciatimitlid had a com muniaritida aide to hiiii by a certain pei:sdiesiitid was not named, thit if the e, Ai .rptild be sans with the cession of, the, CathOlts Claims, it should be granted them. Thii peratift vial insVlered that that Would not satisfy them ; Itt that the- Haase might pert. ceive, that even if the Initiate of Catholic Emancipa tiop were carried. the Association you'd stilkbave some other .object in ,view. He would' defy any /sTolsietoid to say that such an Association ever. existed Wore; if thetiookedA . it inviert point s of slew. Hiwouldtm* come. to', an4bei ,iiispdrtant Opt, the contiiblitiOit called: .ilii...gOilAri 4 i its6lq. Riot: .s6* this Wes a term of their own. He thought that the terns " teat," -itself ithplied oblitation ; which df itself - did away with ,thi. 414 df if folontart COntribiftitiii . They idea Of its Whig veTniitary in a country M diiitled lid:. • - , tween , tfo.facUoits t like Ireland,..waS ridiculous.— TheY Must ~tioaelnlier . it .. Wis collected b! the Catholic Clergy, and they all kaew.the relation.vAiCh subsisted between a Priest and his flock,- too well to think of its being voltiniii"; ililiongli ii . tiiiglit bb; ins many cases. He would appeal to any One viho had vnited•the.Cotte ' try ti say vihedier it was not now -in si state of *land ? 11R ninon c ote t d- that it Yiiii snot the Asscicliticiti that firts the eitiielOf the tiiiiiiniliity; but :supposing it was, if it bad power to cause the tranquillity 'of the country,. ' train had powi,ir todliturb it--(thar). Seth a pow et, ~ ifbuilbtiontht ncit to be in the hands of ant 8 6 ciett. - ttze . ' - WS IL Itm sight tit OK ithlah a Learned Dilations's Ills ed hike le isight tie eiadtd, and yet it *as not *ended. He te*d to ay that it this - attach!e did not paw, couture Aeolian dons Would be farina, Whlth, from the nrnalth and lidlisentitisfAn Pirotestantt o and the blither of - the (Welk*, would cause - tad greateateiisfildon--(Hear, bent', hint). A Nettle Friend cif hit (the Lord Chancellor) had wished the Association to be speak:My named in the Bill ; *hill. it first ight, he lane! - Might *liili it also; but When he cease to eidarider, he mut tigy be thought it ilas: i lltf l uci t as it . was the i t of the Bill to put sloven l- ' oiss. The 'Noble Lord concluded by movies the so. M 'ale Of the till. Lord 'LINO said, that *ere the BM 10 . present . piss, it wbOld Maid* lire teieMblence which it had been said lietand bore :to Hell ; and be regretted. thiit Ministers had no Emissaries ortnvoys abroad whd could tell them, that their first Measure should be that Olc-oritilittting the Inhibiting: Of that cettury, if they wished to preicii4it - li a'port 6ftlie MOrOzi tha st l inkifelis of iiii . EiirOptin *tr. Wit h 'rtortrd to 'tbd admmibiration. 4 . 06110 ill Ireland be thought it wall rather out of chilacter for. the Ministers to take to theeiselver iothb , fare• of the fatt, that wider t %Affection. AO sateXthatt 170 f .persons' `cottivnidtd;'elvhdth Mitad Moen sitcittitted. Stit - aI tho delectable,admir#txation of whieb the Nob irdil wits iikiiirtiftty SO proud. the .bloble, tart ~atc...:~:~-~i°„i' - •- , t0m .,. _ , tifi~_ _-_.. ~..__ also talked of the tyranny of the many over the few, but he would asli was such the tyranny *bids existed in 'lreland, or was it not the tyranny of the few over thee many ?—(Hear, hear). If there was a question of free trifle, the Cabinet was divided—if of South American independ. ante, the Cabinet was also divided—it ut Catholic Emancipation, stilt were the Cabinet divided; but it penal laws were the topic, then was the Cabinet unanimous. and then unfortunately were din' evil principles predominant—( Hear, hear). The Noble. Lordiaok eluded by declaring, that be would give his decided opposirio* to the Bill. Lord TEYNHAM said lacy words in soppoqof the flak_ Lord GROSVENOR'couId not agree to the propo sition of the Noble Earl, unless k had been c tnpled with some measure adapted to conciliate theCatholic4 at least the measure ought to be suspended.' Had any thing leen done in the way of conciliation,.he !fad real son to believe that the Catholics would have' been , satisfied even with the Bill before the House. Thee Committee on the state of Ireland could be productive: of no beneficial result, unless the question of Emend. , pation had been distinctly submitted to them; that way the remedy for all the grievances of Ireland. Had tl t tieF Lord Lieutenant of Ireland recommended this measure, he must have accompanied it with Catholic Emancipa tion. It was known that a Noble Lord, a zealous fi iend to the Catholic Claims (Donoughmore) had been entrusted with' the proxy of the Noble Vice roy.' He had 110 reason to believe that it wai the intention of the Catholics to evade the law. He admitted 'tisk be (LOrd'G.) had it one time doubts as to the propriety of granting Catholic Emancipation ; but his opinions and conviction now were very different,. Unworthy artifices had been resorted to on former oc casions to keep alive the prejudices that existed against the Catbolics--cartloads of No Popery" pamphlet s were disiessisated throughout the country ; and the in., scription to the same effect on the walls of the Metro_ polit outrivalled , even the industry of Messrs. EY4y and. Maitin—(Laughter). It was idle to assett, that the people of England were, generally speaking, adverse to the Catholic claims eight years ago ; a 'Bill hid paiied through Parliament, sub silentio, conferring 'many im portant privileges on the Catholics ; and when, in ,the subsequent year, that Bill became the subject of discos sion in that and the other House of Parliament, not the slightest impression was created through: ont the country, in consequence of it. The same arguments were used during the progress of the Bill in 1807, for the • suppression of the Slave Trade. If the measure that had just been brought into the other House happily succeeded, honourable men would no longer be obliged. to quit the country of their birth; and, looking back to it, as the land in s hich all their affections were centred, exclaim with the Poet." 44 Whereer I roan, whatever realms I see,' My heart, untramiled, fondly turns to thee— Still to my brother tarns, with ceaseless pain, And drags at each remove a kngth'ning chain !" Alt that would be avoided if Ministers would but begin the work of Conciliation. The Cabinet Ministers shackled his Majesty' in his gracious intenticnis. As Ding of Hanover, where he was free from their controul, he wad all, grace and conciliation.„ As King of Ireland, whets he was subject to their influence, he was the very reverse of those qualities. His Majesty should exercise his judgment, and disiniss that portion of the Cabinet which was hostile to the'entertainment of the Catholic clues- . tion. He had the power so to do—" For his breath had made them, and his breath might make"—and then ,create a Government favourably disposed to the sue.. cess of the measure. Capital would then flow freely; throughout Ireland ; all hearts would be united ; and the Catholics might sing—" to triumphe and to Pena" —and exclaini-- • Nidsc est bibeodum, nuns pede libero pulsanda tellus—(Cheers). The Noble tart concluded by stating that he heartily disapproved of thelutsent measure. Lord GOSFORD declared it as his firm conviction,, that if the' Cinholie Association were let alone, it woul d die a natural death ; but every pettifogging Attorney, •at present - in that country was encouraged to oppose it: He hoperkthat he might be allowed to too* something of Ireland, and it was his firm persuasion, that nothing would prtiduce peace and tranquillity in that country, but concession: to the Catholic body ; that must be the foundation of substantial justice. If that question were to be fairly and boldly advanced by •the Government, they would find almost every man in the country`an advocate for it—(ilear). tord LONGFORD thought that the Catholic AsscA ciation ought to be suppressed,, as it was an enemy. to the public peace. He approved of the present Bill, Mid he could assure the House that a large and powerful body in Ireland' viewed the measure not as a coerciet but a pretiiiiie one. The Catholic Association was an' irresponsible bad*, conducting itself in an unconstitu tional mariner: Its acts did not tend to conciliate, but k held up whole classes of the community as objects Of hatred, and endaioured to perpetuate the' ill feelings that Were unfortunately engendered - hr thiit unhappy country. The Duke'of SOSSEX hoped, that if en the present Occasion he shotild be betrayed into any warmth of ex rpression, it would be attributed solely to his warmtbtof feeling. He rove to express his fires and - decided oppo sition to the present Bill, and in so doing to suppoit rite liberties of the' :object. There had been no motives • hitherto shewvi for the necessity of 'the measure. In flintier debatei of a nature similar to the present,-inlmi madam had been repeatedly asked far and withheld. The Speech frtim the Throne had apprised the House that such a measure was contemplated, but had made as mention of the documents or papers on which it Was to he founded. The supporters of the Bill bed • diced no other reason for it than the aatoriety of the Association, which he contended was not suflieleat evi dence to enable the House to proceed. If the Catholic • Ashociation was to be suppressed. their Lordships ought US' be informed of what it was accused. He agreed with the Noble Lord (Gosford), who had said that if Catholic Emancipation were conceded, that that -fisseiety. wad of itself fall to the ground. Noble Lords might smile. but that was his conviction—(Hear). One Nolile Load had stated, that to do a great good we might do a little harm; he did not think that such a proposition was at all times tenable. The question could only be viewed in connection with Catholic Emancipation. Since the year 1778, many privileges had been granted to the: Catholics, which so far from doing injury had-been pro ductive of immense advantages. If the question were to be considered solely on the ground of economy, it was worthy to be entertained, as, if the dissensions in - Ireland could be put an end to, the troops that we were at present obliged to keep up there, might be em ployed on other services. The Illustrious Duke here took a review of the origin of the enactments against Roman Catholics, which, he admitted, in the reign' of Kilig William were perfectly just and necessary to simile the Ptotestant succession ; butithe pointy having ltehtied; the 'disabilities ought, he contended, to *sassy 414 He sthciught that. the - Catholics ought to be 0- tattled cunt P*64oloaralk in. all . privacy: sajoyti- ••I••=offilimElNlMMa