Star. — London, England, 1805-04-30 00:00:00

H-nnmable Gent'email oppolite him %tithed to be Rid: J? Mr. FOX Paid, that fo far from having a wifh to have any evidence killed, it was the defire of himfelf i hi' Honourable Friends roundhim, that the _ _ pipers fhould have tome titles or dercription that would enable them to judge of their contents, in or der that Any other document‘ might be moved for thAt thould be thought necefrary to the fullefl invef . . tuition and molt clear elucidation 'of the whole of the cafe before them. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER again in;ißed on it, that a motion to expunge the limner motion from their Journals, did indicate a &- lire to iiirle evidence ; and that the word of Lord St. Vi.went to the Commiffion:rs .4 Naval inquiry world mak: an impretnon on the mind of any man that he had no knowledge of the trinfaaion (.1 tnid Cr" r . Pte ! !) The Hon. Baronet basi therefore a right to cap! tin. Mr. GREY declared that an Honourable Gentle. man rivulet him mull be guilty of a wilful mifrepre fentation of his intention, after fo much had been laid upon the fubjea The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER. obferved, that the Honourable Gentleman mull be aware that he was not juftified in making ufe of the language which he then did. The SPEAKER here called to order. Mr. GREY then Paid, that it was unfair to affign hint a motive Co different (torn what he had expreffed. He had only objeacd to the lion. Baronet's pro. during his own letter with unnamed enclofures in it. Sir CHARLES POLE Rated, that the Noble Lord had declared to the Commiflioners, that he had never auth-,rifed that application of public money which had been alluded to. Admiral MARKHAM laid, that he would not Rate what were the opinions of Earl St. Vincent or of Sir T. Trowbridge ; but he would mention what be had laid himfelf ou the fulsjca of the Stone Expe dition, and that was, that he never did approve of it, and that it was fuch a fecret expedition, that nothing eife was talked of from one endof the River. to the other. But he had Ltid to Sir T. Trowbridge, you know we have nothing to do with it—it is in other hands. After a few other nbfervations from different Ho nourable Members, the queftion was put, that there Papers he printed, which was carried unanimoufly. Mr. KINNAIRD moved the poftponement of his motion refpcfting Sir Home Popham, on account of the improbability of the papers being printed in fuf- Scient time for. the difculSon. However, on the fog. gellion of Sir William Young and Sir H. Popham, he agreed to let his former motion (land unaltered. Lord A. HAMILTON gave notice of his inlets. tion to move for a Committee on the Corn Laws to morrow fe'nnight. Lord H. PETTY g .ve notice, that he would to morrow move the pottponement of the motion of which he had already given notice ; and added that on Wednefday he would move for the produaion of Papers conneOed with the ftifsjea of the Civil Lilt of Scotland, and particularly Warrants itfued by the Limns of the Exc:tequer. SAVAL COteltlls%loll., The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQSJER. moved the reading of the Aft appointing the - Com. miffioners of Naval Inquiry, and the Ailleing read accordingly, the Right Hon. Gentleman rofe, purfu. ant to notice, to move for leave to bring in a Bill for the further continuance of that AA. for a time to be limited. Ina former part of the Sef ions. he obferved that it was hi;. inteution to bring forward this motion, if it in inld appear that the Commit:Loners of Naval 'aqui' y fhould be unable i 3 the condi of the Setlion to fully difchArge the duty affigned to them on their 4poointmln•. This inability was now ap parent, as revere! objeas Rill remained for invetliga. twin which would necelfarily occupy moth time. It therefore became proper to prolong their continuance; ith refpett to the conduit and charaler of this Commiffion, he was,as willing as any man to admit. that it had produced much ufeful and important in. formation. At the fame time, however, he would fay, that there were feveral parts of the conduit of this Commiffion of which he could not approve, but fill their inveriigatton had been produttive of many re (nits that would conduce to the public fervice, and on this ground he felt it his duty to fubmit this motion. The motion being put, Mr. WHITBREAD thought it extraordinary that the Right Hon. Gentleman ihould feleA the very time he was moving for leave to bring in a Bill to prolong the exitlence of the Naval Commiffion in or der to caR a fur upon the conduit of that C ommit: Pion. Such a reflection from any man in the lioufe would excite furprife, but from the Right Hoa. Gen- Altman, on fuch an meal= too, it moil be peculiar ly furprifing. Not only that, but he was quite fore It was decidedly oppolite to the generil opinion of that Hoak, and the univerfally received fentiment of the Country, that thofe Commiffioners were in any . . rzof their conduit &Serving of cenfure. So far it, that there could be aodoubt that the public feeling wav warmly in their fgivour, too Mitt fo in deed to afford any thing like a, gracious reception to the Right Hon. Gentleman', remarks. Thofe Com mill-inners, in his judgment, and he believed there were very few who really diffeied froth him, had difcharged their duty with peculiar moderation and jutlice If the Right Gentleman thought that I they had in any inflance deviated from that duty, or rnal: an improper eremite of the power in/rutted to -hem, it was incumbent on him to have Rated iv, :nd not to have dealt in lr.ofe infinuation. Perfuadcd the merits of this Commiffion, and that where the refuits of its inquiry were in any cafe imperfea, that imperfection did not proceed from any want of dili gence or capacity oh thelf part, bnt froth a deficiency in the powers with which they were invelled,hefhould snore an amendment, the objeet of which would be to remove that deficiency. The firlt point upon which he would propofe to extend the power of the Commii froners, would be to compel Public Officers to furnifh them with accounts or documents in loch form as they may think proper to fpecify. Thus no Treafu rer of the Navy, or other Public Officer, or Deputy, would be permitted to thwart or delay the proceed ings of this meritorious Comm;ffiun. The neat amend ment he would fubmit, would go to repeal or new model the fifth claufe, which appeared to have been fo imprrperly made ufe of to prevent the full difclofure of public dzlinquency, and to protein deliriquents. Thole died', which were notorious, and which oeva fioned genera regret, mud imprefs the miad of every man who was really anv l -7:s ftn• the tuczefs of this in. triiry, with a &dug conViZtion of the necetlity for this amendment. No t•bjedion could be made to . a fur ther !mention of the powers of thofe Cornmillioners from any apprehenlion that that power was likely to be abufed—for a4a'n(l fuch an apprehenfion the dif: cleat and moderate manner in which they had here tofore aged mutt afford fufficient isprity. Accord ing to the Aft, as it now Rands, every perfon had, It (cents. a right to decline to anfwer any queltion which he chafe to think might tend to criminate himfelf. This afforded fuch a latitude as was calculated corn- pletely to defeat all inquiry, and he would appeal to the Learned Gentleman on the other fide (the Attor ney General), whether any man would be permitted in a Court of Law to decline anfwering a queftion merely upon his own conception that the anfwermight tend to criminate him ? The pratice, on the contrary, was, he apprehended, that if a man declined, upon rich an allegation, to give an anfwer, the Court was competent to fay, that it did not appear likely the anfwer would produce loch an effeft, and that there. fore the witnefs mull anfwer. If,howevet, the anfwer °mold tend to criminate the witnefs, the Common Law would proteet him againlf the confequences. Now it was his with to Scored the Naval Commiffion . . with a dilcretion of the fame nature as that poffelfed by the Judges—that they fhould have the power of compellinz reluaant witnelfes to anfwer—that fuch witneifes fhould be protelted by this ftet, not againit the anfwer, but againit the confequences of Inch an fwer. With this view the Hon. Gentleman moved an amendment to the motion, that the word amend" Ihould be inferted after the word continued. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER obferved upon the allufions which the Hunourable Gentleman had made to what he thought proper to call • Our thrown out by him upon the condu& of the Naval Commiffion. Surely the Honourable Gen tlemnn could not fuppofe that becanfe he felt it his duty to bring forward this motion, tfiat he was there fore divefted of the liberty of fpeech, or that he was to be held out to the odium of that Houk or the country. becaufe he had thought proper to animad vert upon the conduß of the NavalCommiflioners.— He certainly did think that thofe Commiffioners had in certain inliances executed their powers in a very unbecoming manner. But Rill ite was ready to fay that their fer — vices were produdtiie of pnblic utility, and in confequence of that opinion he brought for ward the motion before the Houle. With regard to the new provillons recommended by the Honour ablo Gentleman, he did not conceive that there were g ounds for their adoption. They were at all events of filch a nature as to require much deliberation, and therefore he should oppofe their introduaion into the original frame of the Bill If, howeverS they thould appear upon future confederation to be necefTary, it would be competent to the Honourable Gentleman to propofe them in a future Rage, when there would be a better opportunity for difcuffing them than on the prefent occafion, namely—in the Ihape of a mo tion for an inftration to the Committee to receive filch claufe. Into the merits of there amendments he would for the prefent decline to enter at any length. But 'as to the lag point refpeaing the sth Claufe of the Aft as it flood, he would fly, that it would ap pear to him a breach of common equity, and a moll dangerous innovation upon the old constitutional pea lice, to oblige a man to criminate himfelf. It was loch a propolition as he trulted the Honfe would feel to be at lean deferving of too much ferious con federation, at once to give a fort of opinion by the adoption of the Honourable Gentleman's motion, that fuch an amendment was neceffary. Mr. FOX entirely concurred with his Honourable Friend in thinking the infinuation thrown out againft the Naval Commiffion by the Right Honourable Gentleman who had jug fat down, a molt extraor dinary circunirlance indeed, particularly when the time at which the Right Honourable Gentleman ex prefred his difapprobation was taken into view. If the ground of this difapprobation was of a ferious and important nature, it was highly inconfittebt in him to bring forward the motiun before the Houk For if the Commiftioners were deferving of filch cen furc, how could the Right Honourable Gentleman reconcile it with a jult fenfe of public duty, to pro; pofe the continuance of their power ? But if, on the contrary, the grounds of the Right Honourable Gentleman's difapprobation 'Were of a trifling or comparatively unimportant nature, how flrange was the opportunity chosen for declaring it ! There was fomething peculiarly remarkable in the condua of the Right Honourable Gentleman refpeaing this Commiffion. At inch a time, what could he mean by :sanding to trivial errors— Just Mat a fault and beltate dillike. Wilting to hurt, and yet afraid to strike. •i cry of bear ! bear ! ) ' fhofe two lines appeared to 1 quite appropriate to exprefs the difpofition of the . Ight Hon. Gentleman, they feemed to be made for , 11i6e With refpea to the propofition of his Honour able Friend, Gentlemen would confider that the adoption of it would not go to bind the Honfe to any fulifidiary amendments that might be hereafter fub mitted. He merely propofed that an amendment was obvionfly necetary in this aft, that the original title of the bill Ihould correfpond with the cleared °h ie*. . If the amendments recommended by his Hon. Friend, were calculated to entrench on the great and fundamental principles of common law. he would not, from any degree of regard or gratitude to the Commiffioners of Naval Inquiry. and no man refpec ted them more than he did, be induced to affent to their adoption. He wished not that any man Ihould be bound to criminate himfelf ; but, in any .-45 t which had for its objea to compel public officers to,account for their concha& of the public money, he vias very unwilling 'that a claufe Ihould exifi, calculated to flicker any public officer from rendering fuch . ac count, if he chore to decline it. Ai lead. any akin'. who Ihould. avail himfelf of fuch a chafe, and thus explicitly declare an apprehenfiou of the difcovery of his guilt, ought nit to be allowed, for one moment afterwards, to retain his office. The eatb *as *dif-, ferent with refptift to private individuals. But, when the public thought proper to appoint 4 C 011101446 to inquire into the conducta its Awards or agents —wai it to be born iliac any one of fuch qr rants (hould refefe to aufwer the quefliotis - df filch a Cornmiflion c but, (till more was it tolerable that after filch . rtafal he fhould remain in office t If a public, officer' were innocent, why (hould be with' to be filent, and. if he were guilty, why (bould the Legilhattre Facet him in his fileuce ? He did ' - not mean of coarfe; that any officer fhould be forced to furnith grounds of profectition againft •himfelf, but that, if he perfißed in that conduet whicis clearly implied a confcioufnefs of delin queney, he fhould be . difmiffed from office. Gen tlemen often appeared to forget the nature of thefe Commiffions. They were, in fat, to be confidered as the reprefentatives of the public, examining the conduft of public fervants. If a mailer were to ap point any perfon to inquire into the affairs of his fami ly, and a fervant were to refute to anfwer fuch qtief tions as might be put to him from a fear of criminal• in; hitnfelf, would fuch a fervant be permittted to re tarn his place ? Certainly not. Why, then, fhould a Treafarer of the Navy, or his Clerk, or any other public fervant, however high, be allowed to remain in office after refuting to anfwer to the agent of their matter for the manner in which they had managed hit, concerns, particularly when their refufal betrayed a fenfe of guilt ? Whether public officers fhuuld he compellable to anfwer filch Commiffions or not, it ought, (urely, in common fenfe and equity, be un derstood that a refufal to anfwer fhould be immedi ately followed by difmiffal. If that were underttood, then the refufal of the sth claufe would not be fa ef fentially neceffary, although Rill a provifion to meet fuch a cafe as that of Mark Sprott would be called for. That perfon declined to anfwer, on ..,e ground that he was not, being no public officer, compellable to anfwer quefions under the At. So he was ad vifed by the lawyers whom he confidted. Perhaps thofe lawyers were right, but whether or not, it was proper to extend and explAin the powers of the Com milLoners fo as to leave no room for doubt or cavil, and to enablk them fully to execute the purpofe of their appointment. The Hon. Member repeated, that it was defirable to be underitood that filch a commiffion as that under confederation was not to be viewed by public officer. as a hone.: Court of Inquiry, but as a reprefentative of the public, to whiclith;Y are as much obliged to account, as any fervants are to the inquiry of their matters. The ATTORNEY GENERAL oppefed the amendment. If it were adopted be would put it to the confidcration of the Houk how the Bill was to be framed agreeable to Its title, unlefstherc was a pri. vate communication between the Honourable den. tleman and his Rigbt Honourable Friend before the Bill fhould be drawn up, and that the objeeions ex- Ming in the mind of his Right Honourable Friend againft chore amendments &fluid be removed. If the objettions prevailed againft thole amendments, which objeaions he himfelf felt ftrongly, fhould not be done away by futute difcuilion, the Houfe, if the amendment now propofed were acceded to, might be placed in the dilemma of having prefixed a title to a Bill, which the Bill itfelf may prove to be incon• Rent. It was manifea to him that it would be much better to pottpone the adoption of a title to the Bill, which would imply an alteration of the exiiiing ad, until that change itfelf &mild be determined on. Mr. SHERIDAN faw no probability of the pri vate communication, alluded to by the Learned Gentleman, taking place between his I lon. Fricnd ( Mr. Whitbread) and the Right Hon. Gentleman ( Mr. Pitt) ; and itill lefs did he think it probable that even if fuch communication did take place his Hon. Friend would be able to convince that Right Hon. Gentleman of the reaitude of any propofition of which he happened at all to difapprove. The objedion of the Learned Gentleman to the amendment before the Houfe wouli be removed by appointing his Hon. Friend to affifi in preparing the Bill, which would be a proper proceeding on the other tide, it they meant to . . . aft rightly. The Right Hon. Gentleman hid obferved that the Houle did not part with the liberty of animad vetting on the condua of the Commiffioners of Naval Enquiry merely by affenting to their appointment.— With this obfervation he concurred, but although the privilege of canvaffing their condua did of cootie remain to the Houfe, no Member could airtime the right of throwing out injurinus infinuations againfl thofe Commiffioners, without Rating the prectfe ground of complaint. When the Right Honourable Gentleman chat ged the Commiflioners with behaving in an unbecoming manner, it was incumbent on him to point out what he condemned, in order that the Commiffioner. might fo conduit themfelves in future, as to avoid his heavy difapprobation. With regard to the remarks of the Right Honourable Gentleman on the fifth claufe of the MI, and the repugnancy he prof - riled to feel to the unconllito tional idea of compelling a man to criminate himfelf, it had of late beeqme very much the fafhion of the Right Honourable Gentleman and his friends to cry out againa felf elimination. But he remembered when the Right Honourable Gentleman held a di realy oppofne language. The argument he offered to day was grofsly Inconfißent with that which he ufsd in the year 1785, when he propofed a Commit'. fion of Inquiry refpating the fees, &c. accepted by certain Officers, and when he infißed upon the in trodualon of a claufe quite the contrary of that he defended on this occafion. And thia chute was adopted too notwithßanding the expoßulations of that eminent man who wasnow nomore (Mr. Burke), which expoliulations that Right Honourable Gen tleman then ridiculed. But now he had found it convenient to change-his tone, and the identical Mr Trotter, who it was curious to oblerve was in 1785, forced to anfwer to a Comrniffion propofed by the Right Honourable Gentleman, was now, with others of the fame defcription, to be proteaed from anfwer. tog queftions, for fear fuch Gentlemen ibould crimi nate themfelves. Recurring to the loofe cenfures of the Right Honourable Gentleman on the condo& of the Naval Commiffioners, the Honourable Member obferved, that he meant the day after to-morrow to move a vote of thanks to thole Commiffionets.— Upon that vote he hoped for unanimity—that the fatitude of the Houfe would not fall fLort of the eelings of the country—that their thanks fhould not be mean and niggardly, but full and complete, equal to iht warm willies of the public. In making this motion he thought it right to warn the Right 1-14- nourable Gentleman, who teemed f, unwilling to explain the grounds of his objeftion to the Naval Commidoners, that.lie would take cate fo to word that motion, as to compel the Right Honourable Gentleman to diffent from it altogether, or to Rate in fairnets and candour the parts of their condua of which. he difapproves. Mr. ROSE raid, that be had been always a friend to inquiries of this nature, fine he had the honour of a feat in that Houfe—(u' lea gh was not to be furpored, he obferved, that men who fat on the fame tide of the Houle with itim, were not as anxious . to protea the public money firm dilapidation As any other per!'ons. If any Gen:leman thought ~ t her wife with refpeet to him—if he knew any thing, he chal lenged him to !late it.. A iverting to the allution made by the Honourable (IL:A:anal) who had jult fat down, to t h e eondua of ilk Right Honourable Friend in the year 1785, he maintai.led that the charge of incontinency wda unfounded—that his Right Hon. Friend proceeded upon the lame principle at that time which he profelfed 111;c evening. Mr. BANKS thought ionic amendments appeared necelrary in this ad, in order to do away the obliruc tions of which the Commillioners themfelves com plained, and which was evident from the Tenth Re port. But yet, be would with to wait until the Houfe thould have full orpor►unity to examine the provifions of this Al, in order to alcertain whether thefe obitrudions were the refult of an inherent vice in the at, or ofa mifconaru frion of the Commiffioners. After a few words from Mr. Wit ITSREAD, in which he expreffed his difpnfition to decline preffing his amendment, and from Mr. PITT, in vindication of his contiftency, leave was given to bring in the Bill, and Mr. Pitt and the Attorney General were ordered to prepare and bring in the fame. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQyER then moved for leave to bring in a Bill for appointing Commiffioners to enquire into the public expenditure of the country, particularly in the military ellablith ments, with liberty to them to report to the Houfe fuch regulations as occurred to them calculated for the better management of the public expenditure.—. He thought it would be unnecetfary in hum to enter at any length into an explanation of the different objeds of that Bill, after what be had Rated on a former night. The Bill was meant chiefly to apply to the military etlablilliments, the ordnance, barracks, &c. Another important objet was an examination into the (late of the public accounts. Auditors of accounts had force years fine been appointed, whore inveftiga. tions had been of conliderable public utility. From the long war, however, and ether arcuunftances which had contributed to render their duty more laborious and weighty, great arrears had been allowed to accumu• late, and they had not been enabled to bring their examination down to fo recent a period as could have been wifhed. His objeet, therefore, was, to appoint additional auditors to manage this load of unaudited accounts, till once things could be brought into fuch a train that one fet of Commitlioners would be fur& cient to manage the who'e. This might be the fubjed of a teparate Bill ; but at the fame time he meant the Comthillioners appointed by the Bill now fought to be introduced to have a general fuperintendance over the whole. Another objet would be an inveai. gation into the money improperly taken from the Treafury in Welt India tranfa&toni, and fbould alto• gether be of a profpctive nature. He fhould be anxious to attend to the fuggeftions of any Honour. Mc Gentleman on the fubjeel, by which the general objet in view could be promoted, and any abufes be correacd. Mr. JAMES FITZGERALD Aced if it was meant that the inquiry thould extend to Ireland ? No place wanted reform of abufes fo much. • The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER raid that the fame fyftem was meant to apply to the joint fervices of the two countries. Mr. FITZGERALD inquired if the Comtniffio. ners were to be the fame for both countries ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER Paid • he entertained force doubts how far that might be expedient, but he had not yet completely made up his mind on the inkjet% Mr. FOX 1.441, that however anxious he might be to fee Bills introduced for the cure and prevention of abufes, he could not bring his mind to approve of any ' Bill of the kind brought in at the pretent moment, under the aufpices of the Right Hon. Gentleman.— Confidering every thing which had been lately brought to light against the dear friend and colleague of the Right Hon. Gentleman. the Houfe was called on the prevent proceeding with a confiderable degree of dount and lufpicion. The delicacy of the Right Hon. Gentleman's fituation, he really expelled, would have kept him from forcing . himfelf into fo fufpicious a fervice. If he (Mr. Fox) had been connefted in fuch Rrong habits of intimacy with any perfon found guilty of foal charges, he (hould have taken great care not to have fuffered it to have been in the power of his fill and bittereft enemy to fay, You have taken into your own hands the appointment of a Committee, or of Commiffioners, to inveaigate the charges of malverfation in office, al edged, and, in Come initance+, admitted to have been praitifed by your colleagues, and from which you yourfelf are not altogether free." When he law the lame perfou firri undertake the defence of the accufed, and then, contrary to pratlice, and to every thing favourable even to the appearance of an boneß inquiry, take on himfelf in the grit inßance to name the Committee by whom the inquiry was to be profecuted, he could not look on the tranfaElion w ithout the ltrongefl fufpi don. He would ask the Houle, if Lord Melville had had the nomination of the Commiffioners of Naval Inquiry, did they believe that the Tenth Report would ever have appea'ed ?—And if fo, was a con trary belief to be entettained, with regard to the pre fent Comtniffion, for examining abufes in which pro- bably the Right Hon. Gerrleman was implicated ? He hoped the Houfe would well weigh this point, and reedit& that if ever there was a time in which they were called on not to pay attention to the recomtheu ' dation of a Minister, this was the time. It was not in one department that •thtifes exilied. The Eleventh Report proved that the Tri_afitry was not free from imputation, and yet the Right Honourable Gentle. man, himfelf at the head of the Treafury Board. thought himfelf entitled to nominate the petfons who were to be the put gators or condemnators of that Board. If the Right Honourable Gentleman or the Houle thought that this would &ably the country they were grofsly deceived. Lord CASTLEREAGH agced, if there was, in the political annals of the country, a long political life, more marked for its purity than that of Mr. Pitt r • or, if there was at that moment a perfon in that Houfe fo much entitled to public confidence ?—(4 laugh ) He called on the Houle to fupport its own dignity, and not to allow inflnuations like thofethrown out by the Lit fpeaker, to r pet ate on their decifion. Mr GREY, without meaning to queßion the purity of Mr. Pitt, thought hitnfell warranted in maintain ing, that it was too frequently the cafe, when the head of ALlminidration was uncorrupted himfelf, that