Star. — London, England, 1824-05-07 00:00:00

V V • , , Another Petition was presented from the Butchers of Abingdon n favour of it. Mr. COB BET presented a Petitkou fries the Tanners and Cur tiers of Shrewsbury against the 8i11.2-These Petitions were re ferred to the Committee on the Bill. Mr. GOOCH presented a Petition from the Wool Growers in Woodbridge, Suffolk, against the repeal of the Wool Duties.— Laid on the table. The same Honourable Member presented a Petition from the same place against the Warehoused Wheat Bill.—Ordered to be printed. Mr. DAWSON presented a Petition from Londonderry, praying for a repeal of the Linen Bounties.—Ordered to lie on the table. Mr. A. ROM E presented a Petition from the Freeholders of Linlithgow, against the Distillery Laws.—Ordered to be printed. Sir WI LLTA M GUISE presented a Petition from the Inhabi tants of Clifton, praying for a repeal of the Assessed Taxes.—Laid on the table BYNG presented a Petition from the Vestrymen and Inhaa 1•i- a n ts of the Parish of Sr. Anne, Limehouse, praying for a repeal ;:ie Taxes on Light and Air. :Mr. C. PF.I.H M presented a Petition from the Inhabitants of the Town and Borough of Oswestry, against the Beer Duties Bill. Similar Petitions were presented by Lord BZLOZAVE from the Common Brewers and Victuallers of the City of 'Chester ; by Sit N. W. Bint.ev, front the Manufacturers, Traders, and other.lnha hitants of Newcastle-upon-Tyne; and from the Inhabitants of Gateshill, in the County of Durham.—All ordered to be printed. Mr. HUMS presented a Petition from the Merchants, -Ship owners, Manufacturers, and other Inhabitants of the Town of Aberdeen, in favour of the Oil Gas BM Mr. GOULBURN presented a Petition from nine hundred working Silk Manufacturers of Dublin, against certain clauses in the Silk Dtities Bill. • Mr. 11. TWI SS presented a Petition from the Yeomanry, Far mers, and others, residents of the County of Gloucester, against the Game Laws Amendment Bill. These Petitions were severally ordered to lie upon the table, and to be printed. STANDING ORDERS. On a Petition being presented in favour of the Birmingham Gas Company, praying that the Standing Orders of the House might be net aside, The iPEAKER begged to make a few observations respecting the Standing Order's of the House, as connected with the present Petition. The fact was, he said, that with the present Petition, and Petitions of that description, th;! Standing Orders were not in volved at all. The Sessional Orders only were affected by them. These Orders were altered from Session to Session as to time; and they directed that no private Bills shOnld be brought in after a cer ta.n day ; whereas the Standing Orders required that a certain I notice should be given to the parties who were likely to be affected by the operation of a law, in order that the rights of individuals should be protected. Mr. 1;11IGHT complained of the numerous applica tions of a similar nature, respecting private Bills, which had been made in the course of the Session; and in the present instance he should move a Resolution, calling on the House to enforce the Standing Orders. Mr.E. SUMNER said, that in future Sessions, when ever an application was made for the Standing Orders to be waived, he sliould move that the grounds upon which such application was founded ought to be first stated before the prayer could be complied with. Sir J. GRAHAM was exceeding l) anxious to see the Standing Orders attended to, and unless special grounds were stated for the deviation from them, he hoped they woJld be always enforced. lie recollected the time when they were never -departed from, except on extra ordinary occasions. But now it had become too much, the practice to have them disregarded. It was a species of injustice towards the public thus to act. General GASCOYNE thought that the Standing Orders should be observed. Mr.' Alderman lIEYGATE said, that unless ' the Rouse enforced the Standing Orders I especting Bills, where great variety of interests was concerned ,' much injury would follow. Ile thought it required no un co union degree of assurance to ask the House to sus pe d its-Standing Orders so late in the Session. Mr:ELLIS concurred in the observations made by the wet thy Alderman who had spoken last ; but in the present application be hardly knew how the prayer could be rejected, as every class of persons almost who has! petitioned the House fin the suspension of the StAn.iing Orders doting the present Session had ob titin-,!,1 their request. Mr. lIUSKI:3SON thought the most advisable mode to pursue in the present instance would be to withdraw the Petition, of the contents mf which he was entirely ignorant. lie concurred with those Honourable Mem bers who had spoken of the necessity of abiding by the Standing Orders c,f the House ; but he could not ,to along with the Honourable Member ft.). Surrey (Mr. 11. Sumner) not to grant leave to set aside the Standing Orders in any case. lie (Mr. Ilthkisson) believed there were cases in which the Standing Crders might be sus pended, and full justice done to all parties concerned in the measure. lie would recommend the House to' check the new system which had been introduced. — Many speculative companies had been formed, and Pe titions had been presented to have the Standing Orders waived• lie thought it was owing to the parties con cerned to inform them,• that the public business of the Session would be brought to a close before the private business was finished, it these measures were encou raged. He was of opinion that the House should set its face against these new projects of speculation, es pecially where they interfered with the Standing Orders of the Ilou.e. Mr. H. SUMNER begged to state, that he had not said the Standing Orders ought never to be set aside, but that there ought to be sufficient ground fur depart ing from them. Mr. BRIGHT gave notice, that on a future day be should submit a motion to the House on the subject. ROYAL IRISH MINE COMPANY. Sr' JOHN NEWPORT moved the Order of the Day for the second reading of the Royal hish Mine Com pany's Bill. Mr. HCSKISSON thought some of the provisions of this Bill were of a most extraordinary nature; he was unwilling to oppose private Bills, but on looking at the present Bill, he found it was calculated to make a great alteration in the law, and required the vigilant atten tion of the House. There seemed to be in them a de- parture from the rules observed by our ancestors. They claimed the privilege of a charter, but the power of gtanting a chxrter was only in the Crown ; and the parties who were anxious to have one must apply to the Crown. There were several Companies forming--a Mine Company, an Annuity Company, and an hqui table Loan Society. The. true way to deal with them was, that they should place themselves uron the same looting as any other individuals formed into companies • for the purpose of trade. As to the other Bills before the House to which he had alluded, if they contained any clauses of corporation he should object to them. Sir J, NEWPORT begged to instance the existence of Canal and Gas Companies as analogous to the one which was under discussion. He had no interest what ever in the Bill. He was anxious only to protect it, and he hoped that-it might pass the second reading ; if any objections were to be made be hoped they would be urged in their proper place. r.ELLIS was of opinion that if the House went on incorporating Companies, they would have by and bye little else to do in Parliameut. Some of the Companies • whose Petitions had been presented, would not proceed, if, perhaps, the Right Hon. Gentleman Mr. Huskisson) would inform them distinctly which he did not intend to sanction. But if their Bills were read a second time, ,and then they did not succeed in their plans, considera ble additional expense would be incurred, which the parties would have to pay. He, therefare, would re commend his Right Hon. Friend near him (Sir J. New port) not to press the second reading of the Bill. After a few words from Mr. llAwsoN, the suggestion of Mr. ELLis was acceded to. THE SEPARATISTS. Lord JOHN RUSSELL presented a Petition from a sect of Christian people in Ireland, calling themselves Separatists, to be exempted from taking oaths. Mr. HUME thought the subject • of the Petition was one of the greatest importance. In the course of a cen tpry, one Quaker only had been prosecuted for perjury,. and surely they were a: liable to commit that crime as tlie respectable sect of the Separatists, who did not ex. teed 400 in number-350 of whom were in Ireland, and 50 in England. He contended that they ought not to be called upon to violate their conscientious scruples. The consequences of enforcing the existing law against them were seen in the conduct of some half-pay officers belonging to the sect, who, not able to overcome their religious scruples, had been deprived of it. Mr. Seer etary CANNING would not now enter upon the merits of the question. With every respect he might have for the individuals who comiosed the sect, he did not think that their claims could be admitted ‘s ithout giving rise to distinctions which might create difficulties. Lord JOHN RUSSELL wished the principle of the measure to be reco,,nized. He thought that a person who came forward with a religions objection to take all oath could be as much bound as one who took it. Mr. S. RICE understood that there was a sect of Christians in the province of Ulster, whose religious scruples on the subject of the oath had been attended to. The point in dispute was not so important for ;he Foi,le themselves as for third parties: they could not adtni niAer to wills, or be called as witnesses in a Court of Justice; ani therefore the intere,ts of the community, which Here so seriously involved, should not he left out of the question. If the Jew and Nlahometan had his prejudices regarded, „by should those of a part of our Christian brethren be overlooked ? Mr. J. WILLIAMS thought that there was a great defect in thz law regarding affirmation, as no affirma tion could be received in a Criminal Court. He had called the attention of the House to this subject Session, and he intended to bring forward a Bill in order to render the affirmation of Quakers admissible on criminal trials.--Petitien ordered to be printed. IRISH LINEN BOUNTIES. Lord ENNISMORE presented a Petition from the High Sheriff and Landed Proprietors of the County of Cork, against the repeal of the Linen Bounties. Mr. C. HUTCHINSON supported the Petition. Ile considered the linen trade to have been the great means of promoting industry in the country. Mr. DOMINICK I3ROWNE viewed the Linen , Bounties as of great benefit to Ireland. One hundred thousand pounds might appear a large sum to expend upon them ; but when it was recollected that 300,000/. had been sent over last year to keep the people from starving, that sum could not be better or mo►e profit ably employed. Mr. DENIS BROWNE said the repeal of the Linen B.r►nties took away the means of subsistence of the great bulk of the Irish pearantry.. He implored the Chancellor of the Exchequer, if I:e wished to preserve the happiness of so large a number of people, not to press the repeal of the Bounties for th►ee years at least. Mr. BAGWELL and Mr. BEECHER severally bore evi dence to the great advantages which had arisen from the Linen Bounties. FRENCH NAVAL. ARMAMENTS. Mr. Secretary CANNING said that he had the othe,r night, in reply to a question put to him by an Honourable Gentleman (Sir James Mackintosh), stated his belief that the account cf the number of French slips of war at the Brazils had been greatly exaggerated, and that consequently the alarm u hich had been excited was without just cause. He had since that day received from the French Minister of Marine an authentic and accurate statement, which accounted for every ship of war in the Fiend) Navy, from which it appeared that at the slate of the last accounts received thence, There weie but two French ships of the line in the harbour of Rio Janeiro, and of these one was now on her voyage home—( Hear, hear). At the sametime he felt it ne cessary to state that, wi.hout any apprehension of dan ger, we have on that station twQ line-of-battle ships; and fur ther, thx. (ss ithout the slightest expectation or ap prehension that they should be required to be called into action) our Naval force on every other station ontnnmbers that of France or of any other country—(hicar, hear). SA LT DUTI F.c. Mr. CALCIUM begged to know from the Hon. Member for NorfOlk,whether it was his intent inn to bring; forward that night his motion respecting the Silt Duties? Mr. NVODELIOUSLI replied that he would certlinly bring forward the motion, ovideJ he could do so at a convenietit time; but as that would depend upon the llonourable Member for Aberdeen, lie begged to refer die Honourable Gentleman t 3 him—(A laugh). CHORE!! EsTADLISIINIENT OF IRELAND. Mr. 11U31E rose to make his promised motion. He was wed aware that the subject of the Church establish ment of Ireland might be better managed by otiler I lonourable Gentlemen than by himself. lie was quite aware that in the opinions which lie had on a former occasion explessl, respecting the Church, he could not expect the whole House to coincide with him ; and that, consequently, the motion for inquiry wi:h which he [im posed to conclude would come with more chance of success from other hands, but having found an unwil lingia.lss on the part of other Honourable Members, bet ter ci , alified than himself to originate such a motion, he telt obliged to bring the coestion forward, in doing which he threw himself upon the indulgence of the House, fearing that he should be compelled to draw largely on its patience, but he pledged himself at the same time to be as brief as the subject would permit him. Ile Has quite satisfied that the situation of the Church of Ireland had an effect on the state of that country greater than any man could believe, who had not, like him, looked at it with attention. He had spared no pains to inform himself upon the subject, but he was sorry to say, that after all his exertions and research, he felt himself incompetent to lay before the House a full or comprehensive statement or account of the want of system, or any authentic collection of documents from which the n ecessary i n f orma tion only could be obtained. Iroin what lie had been able to collect, however, be tiusted he should be able to make out such a case as would entitle him to the support of the House. No man who looked at the state of Ireland could say that in alteration in the mode al -genreelung and treating that bnhappq counts"' was onssrearary There was no parallel in the Ifistory of Qiier ancient or modern times for the picture which Irellind presents. When the promises held out to the people of that country, at the petiod of the Legislative Union (1801), were considered ; and when it should be found that so far from the condition of Ireland having been amelio rated within that period, that it had become worse in every department of Government, whether as regarded the Church, the law, or other departments, surely it would not be denied that inquiry had become neces sary. In looking for the causes of those strange effects, they would be found not to exist merely in one, two, or three causes, but in many. An Honourable Friend of his had, a few nights ago, introduced a subject con nected with the state of Ireland, in the discussion of which he (Mr. Home) took no part ; for although he agreed with that Honourable Friend in all he advanced, yet he could not support-his motion, because the object of it would, if attained, be only a palliative, which would operate only in a particular district, and for only a limited time. The object of his own—the present motion—respecting as it did the Church Establishment of Ireland, was, compared with that of his Honourable Friend's, of tenfold importance; because, he would ask, of what use would it be to throw capital into that country, unless security could be held out that the lender would reap the fruits He had in his possession documents t.) prove that, within a very few years, nearly twenty-seven millions sterling of British capital had taken its course to every part of the world in the shape of Loans, and he would say, that bad as' the security' which Ireland could offer appeared, that' an advance to her would be attended with less risk than those to which he (NI.. Hume) had just referred. But, he would ask, did not these facts prove that the monied interests of Great Britain were willing to ad s ance their capital wherever there was a prospect of se curity? and there was no doubt that in treating with Governments—those which were established on liberal principles—offered better chances of returns to the lenJets than• those founded on despotic principles, such as Spain, Russia, Pr ussia, &c. yet the loans to which he had alluded proved most strongly the opinion of the stability and scent it) of Ireland which the monied inte rests entertained, and save to the Right Honourable Gentleman opposite a lesson by which he (Mr. Hume) trusted be would i.nofit, and which would convin,e him that Ireland wa. not to be treated with palliatives. The House had lately had quoted to it the opinion of Flet cher, of Saltorm, re , pectieg Scotland, in his day, and also the mat ast which she at present exhibits to it, which happy change the Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Nlabeily) ascribed solely to the introduction of wealth and manufactures into that count: y ; but he (Mr. Humt) was sure that w hen thy subject should be [hot (nighty investigated, it would be found that the alteration was principally due to the permission given to the people to choose and establish their own religion, and to the en- 1 couragement given to education. If satisfied that these were the causes of that happy change, and that the state of Ireland were looked to, by a parity of reasoning, it, must be conceded, that the same causes would there' produce 'similar effects. Were the Government to act upon titat sugges;ion, he had no dcaht they would st-ctue the loyalty ai,d insure the prosperity of behind. Omit,' the advantages resulting from such a change he tOr one moment put in comparison with the effects arising out of the preent system ? Ile saw no reason why the people of Ireland ought not to be supposed as! capable of induyt y, of the enjoyment of peace and pt os pet ity, as those of Scotland, or any other country. It was the natural dispo,ition of man to be quiet ; but the histot y of nations proved that people had been ire. quentiy driven to revolution. If the people of Ireland were allowed the flee enjoyment of their own religion— that they should not be called upon to support the Clergy of any o:lter Church than theirsownthat they were convinced chat there was a disposition on the part of Give' nment to act fairly by them—tranquillity would naturally follow.; and, as a consequence, English capital and English manufactures would find their way act oss the water. Irishmen in every other country than their own exhibited as much talent, as much industry, and proved theMselves as peaceable subjects as any other people in.the wash Id. lithe experiment should be tried only for one year of the effects that would result front the measures to which he had alluded, he was convinced that its success would be-sucla as so induce the Britis h monied interests to extend their capital to that country in preference to Colombia and other foreign States. Ile took leave to say, that he would be the last man in that House to propose any measure which could by possibi.i y be productive of danger. Look to the state of Austria —of Pr ussia —of every country in which a difference of religion existed, and it would be found that in some of them the t eligion of the King and the Court differed from that of three fourths of the people ; yet that that difference did not produce disaffection to the Govern ment. It would be found in intolerant nations—and he was sorry to say our own was one; in Spain forexample, no man was eligible to office but a Catholic. The same rule prevailed in Portugal—the same in Italy. Were these the examples which we ought to follow? There were two exceptions, Sweden and Denmark, where, although the laws were exclusive, they were lie quently evaded. Having disposed of those countries he came to England, here more than two-thirds of the population were shut out from all Corpora tions, Universities, and emoluments, to which the United States of America formed a striking and noble contrast. The Honourable Gentleman here referred to the case of an individual who had been ap pointed to a situation in the Excise in this country, but who was incapacitated to enter upon its duties because he was a Catholic. What had been the consequences of the system pursued in Ireland ? Perpetual recurrence to Insurrection Acts and to the suspension of the Habeas Corpus. These were the fruits of the system. Would any man therefore hesitate to give to the people their rights, if by so doing he could secure the tranquillity of the country ? He would ask whether the enactments found necessary at the period, of the Reformation, and he would admit that they were necessary, ought now to be continued? We had arrived at a period when we might with safety relieve ourselves from those shackles; they are no longer necessary. The Honourable Gentle man here entered into a review of the present state of Ireland, a country in which no man could go to bed without taking .precautions similar to those practised in a town besieged ; contending thence, that so long as that state of things should continue it- would be absurd to expect that English capital would ever find its way thither, and that that state would continue, unless there was a change of system; and .that he was one who would arm Government with the means necessary to enforce such a change. .Why should any danger be apprehended from extending to the people of Ireland the toleration by whioh Z araria, Saxony, Ress e , en d other Governments, were governed? The Honourable Gentleman neat referred to the argument which was founded upon the King's CorOatron Oath, conteed ing, however, that an Act of Parliament was capable of altering that oath, and absolving the King from it. He would ask the advocates of the Chuieh's inviolability, what they understood bythe term the Church ? In ere same way as they would not call the Officers the Army so they ought not to consider the Clergy alone as flay Church, but the Congregation together with the Clergy, Why did the English change the Established Reliv e , sometimes to Catholic, and again to Protestant, e ta b e , cause it was the will of the reigning Prince, or that Parliament consented to put down the one or build te r the other ? Though in Ireland the Reformed Church bast been selected as the National Church, yet it apleare, that had King William lived to complete what he h,.; projected, or the capitulation of Limerick taker. u l ese later, the Church Establishment in Ireland would L . „ O been similar to that of Scotland. Such being the , el , timents of King William at that day, he hoped teat/L e present Ministers would entitle themselves to the e rat : . tude of the country and rester e that people to 'qui.; and peace, by putting into effect those liberal princi ples of mot als and religion which they are bound in accordance with those professions on the subject ci commerce and manufactures. Whenever that ceenee should take place in the Established Church of lic lend, he hoped it would be effected without force, and through a spirit of kindness and benevolent er rees e„.... In fact, Government must be responsible fur whatevtr n ere the results of the present state of things in IRlan‘i. They h.rd it too in their power to let Ireland, by p; u dent conduct, participate in our commerce, ar.d capital which was now superabundant on cur shore;. He took a rapid view of the increase of the Catheiz religion in Ireland within the last fiaty years, which, :le said, had on the average increased from four and six to one, until it had reached twelve to one or ;fore. T. attempt to keep up the present e;roi :nous St.:ff of the Protestant Establishment in It eland, was to a:tempt :a work against nature. It consisted, accur‘bng to the Clerical (aide, of 1289 Benefices, four Archbishops, eighteen Bishops, thirty-three Dean , tCB Deacons, 17,•; P.ebends, 52 Vicars, 170 Rural De ins, making in a d 51'2. Here was a Staff for an A: my —(A /eu / ;-. l o—i a fact, there was a serjeant to every ten per sons, there being not much above 50t,000 Pr( testaets in Iteearee The Catholics consisted of six millerre and their t sta. blishment was nothing like proportionaie. ir:quiev into Church property was excessively d.aihttnl; but it was enormously great, and if in priva.e based-, would produce a rental of £2,500,000 a year. lit many of these P.M benefices there were but two or three Pro testant families, and in some in the South of Ireland not an individual. Now, the Catholic Church Esta blishment was the very reverse of the Protestant, and its duties were most sedulously performed, whilst is many instance's there was great inattention on the part of the Established Clergy, and often total neglect cf duty, or a dilapidation and ruin of the place of worship. There were twenty-six Catholic benefices, which ex ceeded 3001. a year, none of which were above 70:':. n year ; twenty-two of these were Bishops, who sedu lously performed the ordinary offices of Clergymen. The total of the Parish Prie As and their a,sistants was 2,500, which would be considered moderate indeed when contrasted with the 1,5t0 persons paid to take charge of only .5(X),000 souls, whilst the Catholic Clergy in str fleece' six millions. Tiris was extraordinary, and con sidering the disparity of means of propagating the Ca tholic religion, there most be some peculiar reason ..‘lry it increased as the other decreased. That reason was tt: be found in Warburton, Paley, as %sell as in the avowal on the part of King William—namely, that the State ought, whenever there were different religions, t r :thy itself with the largest. From what had happened, it was hut fair to infer that it was absurd to think of convert ing the population of Ireland to Protestantism, if it were only from the careless way in which the duties %sere performed by the Established Clergy. It would, he be lieved, be boys just and politic for Government to re sume to the Crown the patronage now conferred on tire Bishops, who had the nomination to 1,391 benefices, whilst the Crown had but 293. Four Bishops were enough to do all the ditty, and tleis reduction would re store to the Crown its just right. Three hundred and sixty-seven benefices were in the hands of the Laity, and twenty one in the University of Dublin. The re sident Clergy were 758, the non-resident 531, an alarm ing proportion indeed. Now all the Catholic Clergy were of course resident. In the Diocese of Waterford and Lismore there were only eighteen residents, and thirty-two non-residents. With these facts, it was nut extraordinary that Protestantism should be on the de cline. Many of those were pluralists. The proportion of one Protestant to fourteen Catholics might increase to one to sixty, and he would then ask any man of com mon sense, whether it was to be endured that we should still continue an expense on the Established Church of '2,500,0001. a year ? The weight and pressure of this enormous Establishment was the reason why, whenever there was a disposition to insubordination shewn in any part of Ireland, that it spread and assumed the form of rebellion; for every Catholic thought; and so should he (Mr. Hume) if a Catholic, that every shilling of tithe taken out of their pockets was a positive robbery —(A laugh, and Hear, hear). —He feared he should . be as violent as any of them in resisting this claim. — The Church of England could never flourish until such time as pluralities were done away with. The people would not complain of remunerating services properly performed, nor would sufficient funds for that purpose be wanting ; but they very naturally complained, that men with large incomes were totally exempt from the performance of any duty. There were numbers of el cuses for non-residence, an appointment for instance to the situation of Chaplain to Peers or Peeresses, and in many instances of this kind the Peer or Peeress never even saw the person so nominated. There were no benefices, however small, which fit persons would not be found willing to accept of. He was informed; by a Gentleman well acquainted with the subject, that there was not a benefice even of la which would not be readily accepted of by men able and willing to perform the duties. But how stood the case in Ireland ? Ac cording to an ecclesiastical register, and a printed volume he then held in his hand, there were instances of so maq ecclesiastical offices, and so many parishes vested !, one person, that it was utterly impossible he cored perform the duties. Robert Alexander was Area. deacoa of Derry, and held a union besides of four parish:3. Here the Honourable Member quoted the ~ worth of Lord Dartmouth, from the fifth of Burnees History, in condemnation of eeaneries add prebendaries, and the general wealth of the Chinch! Thera weir three individuals who died Primates 0 ! Ireland leaving behind them not less 64 , 1 800,0•:91, dio Itai circ pm' tiSl Wei test fro the ord rrt sea Ti Col sue IA I dip eels ).4r, dia Hai circ to, the Frei 1 71 °! pro bail wet vesi /sou sort fie was soft nefi par whi wai sue Crc cles the It % lan the En; his lan at ; fixe In Ine die to dal lan fro wh be to d u; the ord the Ile sht res Th lue Pa. the At fire err in If I tin he by ha col P ( ' it of sh 4 sit so th , PC wl bu of A ar fe !is of I • wi a f 4 a Ii t t. r s t