Star. — London, England, 1805-02-16 00:00:00

e moll decided in their difapprobation of k when MIA firft propofed. now were the moll forward, wiih what confiltency he would leave it to them to clplaitt. in maintaining the neceffity of continuing i t . The Noble Lord who had lag (poke 'had al luded to perfons who coalefeed at pretest, who for many years preceding had differed totally in opinion from each other. He was glad that the Noble Lord had made the *Hutton, although it did not appear to come with particular grace from him , conftdering the tenor of his late palitical conduit. In anfwer, however, to the obfervation of the Noble Lord, he a would fay. that whenever that Noble Lord dionld find him, or any of the Noble Lords who ailled with him, renouncing any profeißons they had made. or fentintents they tittered refpetling great public trent a)ions. it would then be time for that Noble Lord. (and he would freely allow him to do fo) to reproach him or them with inconfillency. Neither he nor they with whom he aded, had been guilty of any incon tinency. How the Noble Lord and Tome of his friends could, on important points, hold at the pre fent moment opinions different from what they en tertained before, be believed it would be difficult for them to explain away. Whatever opinion he had ' held, he bad previoufly weighed =tardy and deli berately, and be had always ailed boldly and honeft ly, he trolled, upon them. As to the word coast sing, that word which had been Co ufed and mifufed. he &mild not hellcats to ad with thole with whom he bad not aftually any difference of opinion, al though it was poffible he might have difagreed with them on points which had long flow paffed away.— With refped to the ad which it was propoled to re peal, as he could fee no benefit which refulted from it, there was, in his opinion, no wifdnm in continu ing that, the provitions of which mutt be altered...o. If the mcafure had been trilling in itfelf, he would not oppofe it, but their Lordftops mutt agree that it was attended with great and heavy expellee. Some thing cue was abfolutely neceffary to be dune. and he would be lorry if Government lhonld not do it.— As the allied of his Noble Friend's motion was to afford them that opportunity, it (hould have his molt 4ordial fusion. Lord Vilcoont SIDMOUTH fad, that being thus called on he fhould Cu far gratify Noble Lords. as at that period to rife and deliver his fentiments on the prefent queftion, and lie mould begin by repeating the fubtlance of the words with which theNobleLord had concluded. If lie at any time abandoned the fen 'news which he had uttered on points of public and national importance, and adopted others whieh were centradidory to them, lie fhould allow Noble Lords to fay, he had allied incontinently. This, the Noble Lord teemed by anticipation, to hope he would do that night—but he had always hitherto regulated, and hoped be &odd ever continue to regulate his public life by fixed principles of honour and integrity. This, he was convinced, was the way in which he could heft contelt his own peace of mind, and along with it feetire public etteem and approbati.in. Wh en the Bill now fought to be repealed was pending in Parliament. he had not been fo faneuine as to the advantages to he derived from it, as tome of his No ble Friends, and he thought fo far as the Bill had been tried, his fears had been but too well founded.. There was then however another Bill alto before Parliament, for auensenting the force of the country, and, of the two, Parliament preferred the Bill now in queftion. He regretted that he was called on to give an opinion in fupport of a Bill of which he con tinued to dileporove ; but he thought the honour and continency of Parliament were cninmitred. not to re peal any of its Ala, on the ground of th eir being in effedual to the end for which they were enacted. till their aids were folly tried. And could it be Paid that the knowledge of the Honk on the fubjed of the prefent al, was loch as entitled them to Lay, that it had failed in its operation t It was raid, that it had not redid the number of men to be mired by it within the period it had been iq sainence. This might be, and /et the queftion would remain--had it failed in tech a manner as to induce Parliament completely to pot a flop to it, and to try its tikes no farther ? One of the clanks in the ad required penalties to be im- Von the pariflies for not completing their quotas. iteps, however, to this effcl had yet been taken. There was no Paying what effed this compolfory ftep might have in promoting the objet of the aft, and till it was taken. it was Impable to fay. that the aft had received the trill which it was in the contempla. tion of Parliament it &mid receive at th,e time of pang it. If, then efnre they flopped (bort at pre km without trying the e i ffeft of this provifton in the Ad, he moll be forgiven fur raying, that they would place themfelves and Parliament in a fttuation little becoming their dignity. He confefled he did not like the infliding of penalties, and that the penalties wider the former Ad had been done away; but would it he fair to thole who had nearly fornithed their quota of men, that (pliers who:had to tally failed lhould be put on a level with them ? The principle of impeding penalties might tie improper ; but when impaled, the difpenting with them in every ipilance was only holding out temptaii tttt s to ditto rint the provinons of the Ad. He admitted, that if st were once afcertained that the Ad was inadequate to the purpofe of raiftng the men after the compolfory tnisittassou had been tried, that it would be unjutt to continue it, as io that cafe it would merely degenerate into a tilt an land. A conftderable redudion had been made by this Al of the Supplementary Militia, to the amount of about goon men, He bad been one of thole who, when an additional peace ellabliffiment was thought neeetrary. were of opinion that the Mili tio was the conftitutional lone in which this addition weld with the greaten propriety be mode. He now, however. agreed in the propriety of the tedeoftinn. the more particnlatly on this account r ahat, not with 6Wbi every facility given by Government to pro. core offimrs for this department. there were at pre fent be hundred officers wanting to complete the number fcr the regular eflablithed Militia. He thought as highly of the Militia force as any man could do, but he was of opinion that the keeping it up at prefent to the former titan would caufe a reduction in the voluntary foreetoo rem in proportion to be rendered • ivffable at this moment. It was not his 'ream (peak of the voluntary force of the country at the etpence of that or any other department ; it was however Inch is this country would always have to depend on as its greaten bull and glory— the grateful and frame. • is tribute of a free People to a free Govertopetit..-o , Sit it had been raid. that is was not the intention of Vas Noble Earl who moved for the repeal of dile aft; . . . . to repeal k without propofing tornethiat snore effect' (nal in its Read. He fhould have been glad to hear\ what this fomethi n g was . W as i t t h e re ß orat i on o f the ballot ? That was a meafure which had been trni vefally reprobated. Was it hya draught from the mi litia ? That alfo was a fubjeEt whica would require confideration. Was it by fervice for a period to be limited? That would not anfwer any good end. By that very fyllem had the high bounties been created, and to procure men in that way, fimilar temptations mutt again be recurred to. The prefent Bill, how ever, he was happy to think, whatever it had done, had done it without interfering with the other Mea (tires which had formerly been purfuing, and which he himfelf hi a great meafure had recommended.— The German Legion. The Corps of Blacks for fer vice in the Welt - Indies and eight Battalions to he raifed for rank had been fet on foot by him. The two former had been carried on to.a confiderable ex tent, and of the Lilt four battalions had been railed with a degree of fuccefs which furely fornithed foffi cient reafon for carrying it the length originally fnz geßed. It was not bib principle to raife altogether on rank; not to raife inexperienced men to commands, bat only to grant a tingle Rep of promotion at once; this was what he thought no man could object to.— The Noble Lord then went into a hiltory of the lion- . Tithing Rate of the military defence of the country at the period of fit months after the breaking out of hof tilities. At that time, he raid, we had an army of Regulars. Militia, Volunteers, ire. to the amount of 800,000 men, being greater than that of any other power in Europe. This he Rated not as claiming merit to Martell; he was ennfcious that he had done nothing•but his duty ; and that his exertions had been amply kept pace with by the (pink and ardour of t h e country : he only mentioned it to repel the charge of having tailed in his duty. He concluded by repeat ing that, if the military objoft of the Bill could not be acoomplithed, none would feel more llrongly than he thould the injdllice of continuing it. The Duke of CLARENCE to-k a very compte henfive view of the fubjell. He enteted into a I , •ng detail of the Rate of the National Defence under the late Adminifiration. He then took a view of :he de ficiencies in the different departments of nor force at, home and abroad at the prefent period, which he flats ed amounted to 86.360 men. This circumilance of itfelf, exhibited a fine Ipecimen of the efforts of our Hinillers, who had. in addition to i., plunged us in a new war, at the very commencement of which they had involved us in an at of piracy. ft was, too, fuf ficient to prove that we had no difpotable force what ever, at a period when we were engaged with a Power whole coati extended from the mouth it the Elbe to' Malta.—The motion had his firm fupport- Lord MULGRAVE ohlerved that there was one' point upon which an Illustrious Duke had dwelt with tome force ; but, AS thole papers to which that illut. tiious Perfnnage had referred were not upon the table, he fhould not think it neceffary to take up their Llrdfhips' time, or endeavour to engage their atten tion with any comments of his upon any rinanthenti cated report. There was another fubjeet. however. which had been alluded to by different Noble Lords in the cootie of the debate, upon which he thould take the opportunity of making a few oblervations He Ihould not have felt himf r elf called upon to an fwer the infinuations which had been thrown out agAiltft Itimfelf and other Noble Peers with whom he nutv abed. were it not that a Noble Vikotint (Sid mouth) had at length enter-.d to much into the fob. j_eet. But first. with refpeft to the motion now be. fore their Lordlhips, he mutt ()Verve that, at a time when the country was called upon for extra ordinary levies, he felt it his duty to declare, that it was his with to enforce perfonal fervice, by ballot, eon fcription. or any other mode that would be found moll fulficient to accomplilh the objeCt. But con• fidering the no:afore as one calculated to raife either men or money, he could jthlge of it belt hy compari• fon wi.h the other mcafures which had received fo much commendation from other Noble Peers. In thole alts there were fcarcely any exemptions; but in the cafe of a poor man having a certain number of children. and thole who were incapable (i 1 ferving and who were not worth sool. The penalty on all ethers who were drawn and did not terse was aol. This was expofing every man to a fort of lottery, by which it might be his lot to lid compelled to pay the fum of col. and the repetition of the levying (.f Inch a pct. nalty might it roans-cafes be grievous in the evreme. Whereas, by the BM which their Lerdlhips were now called upon to repeal, the penalty for nontervice WAS divided among the inhabitants of the particular parifh or ditlrid in which the failure of the levy bad taken place. Unleli their Lordfhips were to adopt a meafure of compulfor y* fervice, he thought it was' impoffible to conceive a fyflem that would be lets objeftionable than the prefent law. As to the ar gument of the probability of partiality in its exe cution. which had been advanced by the Noble Earl in the blue ribbon, that would be prevented by the parithes being taken in fuccedion by lot. Molt proba bly the osildnefs of the execution of that law, was a principal reafon that it had not fucceeded in railing • the full number of men which it was originally cal culated that it would. Two modes had been re commended for railing the neceffary complement etm a nu n ;m u a m bne be dr i hhe : to. : men r h d e e r ; o d b fy ia m t h ie r g : h f h o b‘t ffic h'eu e no r t s in:sf ra i linggt)hrat limited iridil certainnrailing to obtain a higher rank in the army. He had ' been long enough in. the fervice to fee. that both of thefe modes were highly ohjedionable ; but the latter was Ma peculiarly fo, as it was a lavilh proportion of tank and a meagre contribution of men. Upon the , whole, he concluded, that the law which the Houle , was now called upon to repeal, was not In liable to objeilion as thole which had been recommended to their Lordlhips' conflJeration. His Lordship then adverted to what had fallen from other N o bl e p eers , reipeBing the opinions which had been entertained by himfelf and others with whom he had lately formed a union. When Noble Lords advanced a charge of dereliBioo of principle, it Mould have been upon more folid grounds. For his part, he bad never felt that he defer ved lush an mutation : he therefore thought it his duty to repel the imputation. He had an opinion that Government was not fofficiently Ilrong for 1 the exigencies of the times. He confequently 'Piffled to fee thorn petroos. or rather that perfon, in offiees who had carried the country fife through 1 times of the utmoft difficulty and danger. He then ' called upon the Noble Lords to make their charge good if it was ia their potter to do fo ; he called upon them to Rate tiptin what ground this intpntation was call upon his charader„ or why the reputation of thole with whom he aged was attempted to be leffened in the eßeem of the Houle or of the public. If the charge could polLbly be made good, it was fit that tt fhould be made known to the country, that they were no longer worthy of filling their offices. Ifany difference of opinion Mould be dated to esill between them on tome particular fubjed;, that was not a fufficient ground for charging them with a d:relic sine of principle. H e truited that there was fo much good fenfe in Parliament and in the county •that they would know how to appreciate their condo& and that they would not be induced to form er roneous opinions upon Inch loofa infirm ttioos.-11: was conforms that he had difctiarged his duty as a good Alike, and as an honel and independent Mem bet of Parliament. But he could not fuller a charge of the nature ef that which had been laid before their Lordltips to be advanced by one Noble Lord, and then to be fuppurted and dwelt on by another. without endeavouring to repel the imputaion.v . If there limpid not be any further explanation as to what was the caufe of Inch a charge being brought agaiait hintreff and th .fe with v ":am he &fled, the Hrule and the Country would no doubt Ice their .conduit in its proper light. As there was not any argantent urged againa the prcf:nt law which might not have been with equal propriety advanced agatnfl any other mcafure for the rnili•ary defence of the country, except a plan for compultory fervice ; and, as there I ad not been fufficienr experience of the ex tent of the operation of the Bill to anchorite him confcientioutly to fay that it had not had the area intended by the framers of that Bill, he felt it a duty incumbent on him to fupport the law as it now Rands, and vote againtl the motion of the Noble Lord who had opened the debate. Vifcount SIDMOUTH explained. He endeavour ed to do away tome mikonceprions refpeeting his Dinion on the Referee Bill. He complimented the uke of Clarence on the opinion which his Ro)al Highnel: had advanced refpeding the diminution of men for the Miiitia Service. Lord GRENVILLE fupported the mo'ion. He I replied to Lord Sidmouth, inferring from the at gu ments of the Noble Vifcount, and from the gii• ment of tonfillency, that he was an enetryi to the Additional Force Bill. In another Houle, the No. ble Virconnt harl oppofed it ; and his Lordthip would not believe that any change in the place of fit ting could have operated a change in his principles. But, indeed, no fuch change had taken place. The , Noble Vircount had given tip the meafure as a mili tary meafure, and now talked of it only as one of revenue. The meafure was to be continued for the fake of the fines, and not to procure recruits for the army. Yet how unjuß, unequal, and oppreffice fuch a meafure ! Why punith the peritites, becaufe the artily, owing to the influence of had councils in evil times, could not be recruited. There never was a more oppetlfive, unequal, or oinjult meafure, than that of die - Additional Force Bill ; nothing he had heard that night tended to change his opinion. The Noble Lord here went through the various lions of the Bill, demonftrating its inefficacy, from the Returns of Engl.tnd, Scotland, and Ir Lod.— His Lordthip next adverted to g hat had fallen from the Noble Lord (Malgrave) who had to pointedly alluded to the Wite of panties. On this topic his Lordthip laid he did not know ninny charge of del e lidiun having been alledged against the Noble Lord. He could allure the Haute it was not his inten'ion to bring charges on light grounds againfi any man. He had ailed very long and very c •rdially with the in dividual alluded to by the Noble Lord who had jun lfat down. He could not ad v. ith him now ; fur they did not at on the fame principles. Not that he meant that the perfon in question had abandoned his ptinci• pies ; for he could well imagine that he retained his principles in all the difficulty of his fouation. Yet that friendlhip which had lublified between them, he hoped fuhfifted (till between them. He was perf-iaded the Right Honourable Gentleman meant well. His ILordhip afked, in anfwer to the infinuatiun, that he new en.operated with men from whom he had until lately always diffeied, whole opinions he had refilled many years. whether the N•!nle Lord had forgotten ilia the Right Honourable Cliancellor of the Exche quer did himfelf form an alliance, not many years p a n, with feveral Noble and Eminent Perfans, cue a Noble Dake (Portland), who had at one period tire opposed him ? But that took place in a feaflin of great danger. The coalition with which he had been reproached likewife took fillet in a cries of great danger, when a formidable enemy threatened our (bores, when unanimity was called for by Minifiers, when the union of parties was deemed indifpenfable to the fafety, nay, the exitlence of the nation. He did not know that he ought to feel otherwife than prond of fuch a connection. The individual to whom the Noble Lord (Musgrave) had alluded (Mr. Pitt) did propnfe to the' King the admiffion of his Friend (Mr. Fox) with whom he was happy to ad, into the Cabinet, as a meafure neceffary to the fafety of the empire, being neceffary to the confolidation of parties. His Lordthip laid, that under all there circumflances lie was happy to ad and think with his Noble Friends. He hoped he ihould always think wit:, them ; he never would defect them. Did No ble Lords mean to fay that, becaule he could not confcientionfly form one of an Administration that had violated a great and faered principle of good faith, plighted to individuals at once dillinguithed for the fitll talents, greateft virtues. or milt fplendid fortunes, in the kingdom, that he had deferted his principle. ? Lord MELVILLE raid, that what he had to rub. mit to their Lordthips ilsould certainly he compre hended within a tray narrow compars, for one ex preffinn of his Noble Friend who had lately fat down comprehended all he had to fly. The Noble Lord fpoke with great propriety when he laid the Military terwice Of the country called for a clear and decilive fyfiem of policy.--that was his opinion alf9. It was extremely true that the exigency of the coun try was more than the former force of it was equal to, and this made Government proceed on a larger leak than they had formely done with regard to its Military firength ; but he was of opinion it would be better to adietre to one fyllem until it had been fairly tried, rather than abolifk it for the fake of making an experiment up , m another. We had tried a large Supplemental Militia, and that was attended with the molt falutary courequences ; Isla the im portant past- of it wise that of eitatgithiug a great Ile defenGve force, and then the rneafure was wife, npor confideration of the apprehenfion of ineafion, and that we had no continental application for our mellow,- force ;—we wanted only fecurity at home, for which purpore we had thus a powerful army, and the bene ficial effees of i' were felt. Next to till, came the Army of Referee, for which he took no merit, ter he was not in his Majefty's Councils when it was bright forward, but without exception the Army of Referee appeared in him to he one of the bell means that could have been deviled, and it proved the truth of the prop Ifitlon, that men once introduced into mili. Iffy habit-, either from the love of gl .ry or other -motives, nice become acenflomed to military etc , . : i ms ratiht lion be brought forward to almoll anv extent to an unlimited f:rvice out of a limited one. &lc% was the effeS of the Artny of Referee, for out of 37,t000 men railed under the Army (.1 . Referee, which was a limited ferei:e, no lefs tan 1 tOcoo men weic produced, while cervices might be extent.- cd now to any part of the world. It was though: tight, hut he lb )uld not difcufs whether rig:.! or wrong, to fulpead that AS, though he did not ap. prove of that furpenfion. This other meafitre was f, brought forward, whether worfe or better than the Army of Referee, he Ihnuld not difcuf ; but this he would fay, that he would not give up this Bill with. out having fome more light before him, or without, alJurances of fome better meafure being immediately o i adopted in its Read. It was a Bill which Noble Lords laid, had produced no effect, although they raid we had eight months experience of it. We had not, in truth, had three months experience of it, either in Send Ind or Ireland. He afked their Lordlhips, whe ther upon fo flight a trial they would part from a bill founded on the principle of the Army of Rererveßill, which had been ft beneficial, until experience fhould jullify them in fo doing? He apprehended they would not. The truth was, that this Bill was produced when there was a great divifion of fentiment upon the fub jeft in Parliament, and that divifion necefrarily pervad ed different parts of the country, and from that caufe the Bill had been prevented from having a fair trial. Men's opinions, pal ions, and prejudices, had had gteat effeft in thwarting the °hied of the Bill in dif ferent places where it had been endeavoured to be carried into Execution. It was laid that we mull have tecourfe to recruiting of the Army inflead of that fyllem ; but that had been already tried, and ie was found not to antwcr the purpole, in vita of d (patch, in well as this or Bootee Inch meafore : and he knew the great underffinding of his Nota!e F , iend better than to think he would forego a meafure of this kind without affording it a fair trial : he there fore hoped that instead of repealing this Bill, Par liament would have recourfe to come alterations and improvements of it. All he afkcd was a fair trial of the merits of the Bill. He ditruaded their Lordlhips from too harfhly adopting a fyltem of recruiting, for it would be very diflictilt it, fapprera the inconveniences that would follow it. But there was another polio on which a confiderable flow of language had been employed, which might have been well enough adverted to by an argumentative ifeech i without ornament, neither was there any necellity i fur the acrimony wh.ch appeared iit the Ipeech of the Noble Lord to whom he alluded. It would be ab turd to fay that difference of political kraiment was a thing that made men unfit for each others' friend- Ship; or that men could not he allowed to be acting for the good of their country, becaufe they differed from others who were allowed to have that good at heart. It VAS one of the excellencies of our Coniii. union, that men were naturally led to a diffeience of opinion in public ; it was the fruit of ireedom of Parliamentary Debates; this freedom nceelratily [ produced divilions and actintonious obfervations, and perflmal allusions, which generated a comiderable I degree of heat ; but to fay that thole who thus mty accidentally differ, can never an together for the benefit of their country, was going much too far in his opinion. Men might, from vat iout caufes oppafe each other for a long time; might cenfure each otber. I li;eak of each other acrimonionlly, milalo neveitha. i left, unite in one way of thinking, and aft toge ther ; but if it fhould happen that thr.te who had been from their whelk years in habits of intimacy and cordial affeftion ' waling together in public life, lhould have a furpenfioo of their friendlbial and predilEftions from an accident, he thought Inch a circumflance ought not to be milde the fubjeft of acrimonious oblervations, ftich as had been indulged by a Noble Earl in this dr:bate.— He, on the other hand, had rather obrerve that chola who had long and frequently been in the habit of dif fering in opinion, had expreffed their tentimen , s with confiderable heat and animofity, perhaps, fonmirnes, towards each other, could neverthelets hod a principle which called upon them to bury their animofity for ever, and to unite their efforts in the fervice of their country, and then treateach other with that sea rm. h of , heart and teal kindnefs which is chiefly to be found in domeflic affeElion, but which he did Lot think nnght to be baniflied hoot public life. He had obfereed there things a little longer as he was an older man, than molt of the Noble Lords he now had thelionour of addrelfing ; he had obferved that notv.ithltandine a good deal of apparent rancour, rec .nciliations of this kind fometimes took effedt ; if any thing of that kind could take place on this occafion, a good deal if public advantage might be derived from thi s 4 6.. greffion. It was worth while for perfons dillin- guiflsed in public life, to confider what the public thought of there acrimonious obiervations, and how eafy it was to doubt the fincerity of them ; to corclode that public men were not really interested in what they laid, when they appeared to forget it Co loon. There exhibitions of anger and rage on the Parlia mentary Theatre, in which the whole public was the audience or fpeftators, had not the happiett el. feet in producing the bell opinion of chore who made there exhibitions in that Houle, neither would any Member of the Houle defend this anger any where 1 out of the Hoorfe. He therefore thought they might treat one another like Gentlemen, and ceafe to abule one another. When men ailed together fairly, the world never found fault with them ; and gave them i credit for good intentions, but Parliamentary rancour I was a thing the public oinked. As to warmth of debate, nothing was better; but that was not t;c fame thing as rancour, which had always a bad el. fea on the fpatators, who put a bad contlruaivu upon the pratlitice of indulging it. He thus endea r's ured, as well as be could, to (mooch the combatants in there matters, a praaice in which be had fome et- • perience. He had only to add, that he timid always