Star. — London, England, 1802-12-15 00:00:00

PARLIAMEN7 ARr PROCE tDIA GS. HOUSE OF LORDS, TUESDAY, DEC. 14. Coonfel were finally heard on the Scots Appeal, Lord Rin *Laird v. Mathewfon, viz.—Mr Adam on the part of the Re- Cpondent in Reply.—After which their Lordihips. on the Mo tion Of the LORD CHANCZLLOR, poftponed juJgnient thereon till Friday._ The Bills brought up yefterday from the Commons, among which was the Malt Tax Bill, were read a fecond time, and committed for to-morrow. Their Lordihips were ordered to be fummoned on the oceinion. Two Private Bills were read a third time and paired; and two otkr Private Bills brought up from the Commons by Mr. • Baldwin and others, were read a firft time. The Irith Militia Bill went through a Committee of the whole Houf,t, Lord WALSIN GUAM in the Chair, and was ordered to be reported to-morrow. Mr. RZTIIOLDS prefented at the Bar certain Documents from the Court of Exchequer in Ireland, relative to the Gude of Stuart Young ; which were ordered to be laid on the Table. A number of Peers attended, but the Difeuillon expeeed this evening is, we underftand, propofed for another Stage of the Bill. HOUSE OF COMMONS. any e . ' A new Writ was ordered to be made out for Midhurft, in the room of Samuel Smith, Efq. who has made his cletion for the Borough of Leicefter. Mr. WOODIORT prefeoted Accounts from the Exchequer, of Monies iffued by his Majefty in purfuance of Addreffes of the Houk, and not midcgood by Parliament.--Laid on the Table, and ordered, on motion of Earl Temple, to be printed. A Meffage from the Lords concurring with feveral Private Bills, and feat feveral Bills of Naturalization to the Houfe of Commons. lir W. PULTIINZT prefented a Petition from the Moldier' of the Town of Wem, in the County of Salop, again/ the Wet ting Ad.—Ordered to lie on the Table. A Bill was ordered to be brought in pusfuant to the R efotu- Lions which had been agreed to in the Report upon the Sugar Bounty BilL The Houfe refotved itfelf into a Committee on the Sugar Bounty and Drawback Bill, for Ireland, in which Mr. Corry moved feveral Refoludons, the fame as thofe In the former Bill. —Ordered to be reported to-morrow. Report of the Corn Exportation Bill; committed for to morrow. The Honk in a Committee on the Dublin Baking Bill.— Report to be received to-morrow. Mr. CORRT brought up a Bill for reducing the fereral Militia Adis in Ireland into one.—Second reading to-morrow. Mr. liussirrru IT brought up a BM for fufpending certain I=bee&c. rdadve to the.Woollen Manufmaaries , —To ' kelood time to-morrow. Report on the Navy Billa 11.101170'W. to be received to- A 2 he rendering more eafy the tranfportation of Crimi- MieemOldired to be read a third time to-morrow. • TONNAGE DUTIES. Mr. Buenos prefented a petition from the mer chants and blip owners in the port of Blythe ;—H praying a repeal of the Export and Import Ton. nage Duties. • On prefentin this petition, Mr. BIVADON faid, be could not re g ain from making fome remarks' upon the fubjed of thofe duties, in confequence f what had fallen from the Right Hon. Chancellor of the Exchequer, on a former night, in his Rate anent on that fobjea, which he did not conceive to be relevant to the fubjed of Ways and Means ; bnt which was obvioufly intended to contrail thofe flatements which had been drawn in the feveral petitions previoufly prefented to the Houfe on that fubjetl. His purpofe in riling now, was to en deavour to deprecate the influence which the Rate punt might be likely to have on the minds ok the Houfe, before whom the merits of thofe petitions Mould come to be regularly confidered. And he Mould hope the Right Hon. Gentleman would give every fair (cope for difcuffing the fiibjett which its importance required ; as he and his Friends certainly meant to make a (bong cafe for the consideration of the Houle, founded upon the feveral Ratements alledged is the petition. The de claration made by the Right Hon. Gentleman, on the former night, he owned embarraired him not a little at the moment, as the Ratement he had made came forward by furprize, and, therefore, be was not prepared at the moment to go into either of its authenticity or im port. As to the accuracy of the Ratement, fo far alit went, he bad no doubt ; but he begged leave to fay, that a comparative view of the entries in. ward and outward of Britifh and foreign (hipping, in the port of London, for the years 1801 and 1802, brought forward by the Right Honourable Gentleman as a fpecimen to prove the rifing Rate of national profperity under this head, was by n o means a fair criterion by which we could judge of the fituation of the general Rate of the country. For the favourable contrail, (hewn by the Right Hon. Gentleman, to prove the great decreafe of foreign (hipping in tBoa, compared with the pre ceding year, there were great and obvious caufes. In the former year the Ruffian embargo, and the Northern Confederacy, were flrong caufes which rendered the employment of foreign (hips indifpen fible to carry on our trade; insomuch, that he bimfelf had ken a letter from Riga, which Rated that four hundred foreign veffels were employed from that port alone to carry Briti(h cargoes ; and one hundred (hips from another port, all with in the (tort period of two months. Another very (bong caufe, was the high bounties offered by this country for the importation of foreign corn.— Caufes there, which mull have very confiderably tended to increafe the number of foreign (hipping in our trade, and which ceafing, in the UR year, mull have unavoidably tended to create that dif ference, from which the Right Hon. Gentleman bad deduced a conclufion fo highly favourable to Width Commerce. Another caufe for this de creafe, was the regulations formed by rival powers on the Continent, and the plans they had fit on foot to rival us in the Carrying Trade, particular ly the regulations formed by France, exclufively again( the (hipping of this country; regulations, the force of which mull inevitably be felt, if the !hipping of this country wasp) contend with them, clogged with a burthen fo heavy as the Tonnage Dunes. To form a fair and jun criterion of our true fituation in this refped, the Right Honourable Gentleman ihould have gone much farther back than trot, for a contrail with the laR year, from Nbich - -- • T.'T' 5 ,;''Mrl,: ,7""` Co highly produdiee, tmta a out to prove its injurious tent mercial interells of the Country, would pledge himfelf to make opportunity ; but, in the mean prejudices in the minds of the : , :ng the ftatement of the Right Honourable Gentle man, would be fulpencled until a fair inveftigation fliould take place. The CHANCELLOR of the Excitsopaa Paid, the Hon. Member feemed not to recollect, that the flatement be had made on a former night was ex prefsly confined to the port of London ; and that he had lived it, not with a view of cresillsg any prejudice in the minds of the Houfe ; *lnch, on the contrary, he did molt fincercly deprecate, but with a view to give fome criterion of the fituation of the country, fo far as a fiatement of the port of London—the only ftatement then in his power— could be confidered to afford. In anfwer to the affertion of another Hon. MeMber, (General Gaf coigne) who complained alfo of the Tonnage Duties ; and who, whilft he admitted the fituation of Britith Manufadures in the great manufadur ing diflrids of his own vicinity, to be flourilhing beyond example, yet afferted that the (hipping Trade of the country was rapidly declining, and the capital of the Ihip-owners in the town of Li verpool alone, funk one-third in its value. On that occafion he had acknowledged the poffibility of force particular ports, and perhaps the very re putable one of Liverpool, which that Hon. Mem ber fo worthily reprefented, might fullain fome partial difadvantage, in confequence of the changes and arrangements necefiirily confequent to the re eftabliihment of peace. But what he aliened then, and now, and what he was confident the annual returns, when they came forward after the recefs, would bear him out in aliening, was, that, upon the whole, the Port and Shipping Trade of the country had molt confiderably and rapidly in creafed in favour of Britifh (hipping, fince the peace. His Hon. Friend who fpolte laft, had deprecated all prejudice created by his ftatement againft the petitions on a former night. He would imitate his example now, and deprecate all preju dice created by petitions from particular places, arainft his ftatement, until the whole returus from all the ports Mould come regularly before the Houfe. Adverting, however, to what had fallen from the Hon. Member for Liverpool, on a for mer night, thoughle had admitted the poffibility of the trade of that town having diminifbed fince the termination of the war—yet, in confequence of the Itatement made by . the Hon. Member, he had felt it his duty to inform himfelf fince, as accurate ly aspoffible, on the fubjed ; and the refult of his enquiry was, that on a comparifon of the entries inward and outward of Mtn and foreign (hip ping, at that port, for the years zBoi and 1802, the account would Rand thus— zSoz Brit& Shipping entered inward - 1331 ' Iso2 Ditto - - 1783 am Foreign Shipping ditto - 624 Igor Ditto - - 425 In looking &it at this contrail, he was difpofed to imagine, that although fo material a change took place in the number of velTels under both defcrip dons, it might be counter-balanced by a decreafe of tonnage; but the next column in the return removed his apprehenfions, as he found the in creafe of tonnage confiderably exceed the propor tion. In the former period the number of Width Ihips catered outwards from the fame Port was - 1694 During the latter period - 1062 The number of Foreign in the former period - 7 0 3 During the latter period. 461 Tonnage in proportlon. Here then again was an obvious argument againa the affertion tithe Hon. Member; and he had fur ther to allure the Houk, that upon the Ratements he had been able to obtain, to fimilar enquiries direfted to the four other great Ports, from which the Hon. Member had moved for returns upon a former night, the accounts were equally fatisfac tory, and proportionately in proof of the affertion he had made. An accurate ftatement he could' not pretend to have obtained, fufficient to guide the Houfe in a general conclufion, and for this reafon be wilhed them to fufpend their judgment till after the reeefs. But in the Catement he now made, he could a trot that not only was the change, with regard to number and tonnage of thiping in thole ports he bad named, decidedly . avonr of this country; but the number of Britith feamen employed on board fuch (hips, in a comparifon of the two years, increafed upwards of to,ooo in favour of the latter. From thefe eircum- Ratites, Rill more Rrongly fupported as they would be, by the general returns from all the ports, after the _neck. be had little apprehenfions that the Houfe would be inclined to deduce any neceffity .for abolifhing the tonnage duties, as a meafirre ne cerary to the profperity of our trade. With re , fpeit to the documents his Hon. Friend might think neceffary to have laid before the Houfe to aid his purpofe, he need not be at the trouble of moving them, as, by an Aft which palled at the chile of the laR Seffion, it was made mandatory on the proper Officers to lay them, amongft a number of other papers, on topics of public receipt, expenditure, and finance, before the Houfe every Seffion, and they would, of conrfe, be brought for- I ward immedia:ely after the recefs ; and whenever the queftion lhould come forward for difeuffion, be Mould be ready to meet it fairly. ' Gen. Gascorons, without meaning to antici. pate any dikuffion upon this fubjesft, could not pals condut unnoticed the of the Right Hon. Gentleman, who, upon the former night, when be had moved for thofe returns from Liverpool, Brißol, Hull, and Glafgow, in order to contra vene a partial flatement from the port of London, oppofed the motion as premature, and yet, this night, to ferve his own purport, he found no diffi culty, in prematurely pebdueing them from his pocket on the fpur of a moment. In moving for thole returns, he had no other objeet than to give the Houk fair grounds to judge, whether it was politic or prudent to continue the tonnage duties or not ? In quoting his fentiments, from the diC cuffion of a former night, the Right Hon. Gentle. man either widely millook, or wilfully tnifreptn. me a wise • Me _ ~; ;~~-~, our ManufaitutOs Ott ja 40- of our fhipping Vide, flit! pad. ,em, he Ipoks from authentic more Amorally of the decaly of :mportahs breams of that irides ty, ;ft Indian department; and be now (poke, in the hearing of• many merchants, wba well knew the fad ' • which (espied alto admitted yefterday by a Right Hon. Gentleman, who talked of bringing fome meafure forward for its relief.— With relped alto to our carrying trade, no man could doubt the injnries we have fuflained, and muft continue to fuftain, in that quarter. Nor was the Ratement brought forward by the Right Hon. Gentleman any thing like a fair criterion by which to judge. The fufpenfion of our Naviga tion Al, in favour of Foreign Shipping in 18011 the Ruffian Embargo; the Northern Confederacy; and the Bounties on importing foreign Corn, al luded to by an Hon. Member, were all caufes for (welling the details of foreign (hipping in our ports that year, and forming a contra!} fo favourable to the haft. But in the monftrous increafe of Britifli (hipping, Rated by the Right Hon. Gentleman, he omitted to fay where they had come from.. Had they fallen from the clouds ? Surely not; what then were they but veffels before employed in the tranfport fervice for troops during the war, and which, from making no entries outward, did not appear on the returns of the former year, and confequently did not come into the comparifon.. He, therefore, Rated now, as he had done before, that the two branches of the (hipping trade, to which he alluded, namely,. the Well Indian and the Carrying Trade, fo important to this country, were not in the flourifhing condition alledged ; and that farts would not bear out the Itatement of the I Right Hon. Gentleman. In refpea to the fup plementary Ratement made this night by the Right Hon. Gentleman, he could not allow him all the.' credit he affumed on the ground of candour, nor did he confider his condua towards him, in rela- 1 tion to the documents he had this night adduced, in fo furreptitious a way, confluent either with candour or handfome treatment. But to form a lull judgment .of the true ftate of our trade, an impartial view for ten years back would be necef fary ; it would (hew, on an average, that foreign (hipping had increafed above one-third in. our ports ; and that in the port of Liverpool alone, I th e capital vetted in (hipping, rated at twenty mil lions, had fallen in value, within the IA year, one complete third. He added, that at this moment, in the whole river Thames, there was not a Tingle (hip building for the merchant fervice. He hoped, however, the Houfe would fufpend its opinions altogether on the fubjea, until it fhould come fairly before them. The CHANCELLOR of the EZCHEVIR explained, by alluring the Hon. Member he did not bring forward the very partial and imperfea documents, he had Rated this night, with any view to decide the opinions of the Houfe, which he withed to be fufpended until the full returns could be made out : neither did he adduce them out of any per fonal motive towards the Hon. Member fee, let the Itaternent made by him, have come from whom it might, he would have -felt it his duty to op- pole it. Mr. ATKINS fupported the arguments of Gen. Gafcoigne, and faid, that any comparifon between the ports of London and Liverpool, afford no fair criterion to judge by, as in the former the (hip ping were principally the property of (hip-owners employed in the carrying trade, and difpoceable generally to any port or quarter of the world, where that trade might call them ; but at Liver poi the (hipping was the property of the refident Merchants • that town, from the nature of its commercial connections, poirefed itfelf of the principal Import Trade from the Weft Indies, and became a mart for Europe, in Weft India commo dities ; and confequently by the furrender of our conquells in that quarter, and the reftoration of the Sugar Colonies to France, that port mutt be molt materially injured. Mr. DENT thought the Ratement made by the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer did not meet the cafe of which the petitioners com plained • and earne ft ly hoped he would give the fubjeft that due and deliberate confideration it de ferved. Circumftanced as we were with the Powers of Europe, and contending as we were with filch a rival as France, who had already ufed, and would continue to exert every means, direct and oblique, to undermine our trade, it was impof fible that too much protection and encouragement could be given to it, or too much precaution ufed in the ad option - of tneafures in any degree likely to affect that profperity, Alderman Sir WILLIAM Corns thought the Tonnage Tax a very good one, and hoped the Right lion. Gentleman would not abandon it, convinced as he was that it would continue to be produitive. Thole Gentlemen who now complain ed that the capital of Liverpool, in the article of fhipping, had fallen in its value above fix millions in the laft year, forgot how many millions they , had put into their pockets by the war. That they I were content Mend/ to put into their coffers • and (till expelled the full value of their capital. 'This, however, was a fpecies of argument to which he hoped the Houfe would not liften. There was no let of men in the country who had profited more amply by the whole war, than thole who now complained ; he therefore taw no reafon why they fhould not bear their ample there of the public biirthens as well as other people. Perhaps the fur plus of the year's revenue induced them to think the tax no longer necellary. Hewifhed, however, the furplus was double ; but Rill, in the fituation of the country, it would beano argument with him for repealing the tax. Mr. VANsi TTART was extremely to wave all advantages the Ratement of his Right Hon. Friend could derive, from a comparifon of the halt year's Shipping Trade with the year !Rot in par ticular. His Right Hon. Friend had chofen it on a year the moll favourable to Britifh (hipping of any preceding the halt, but his datements of an in creating prof - perky would he much more eminent. ly corroborated by a comparifon with any other year Ann the Revolution. I AWMIIUn which he had deduced fuch aufpicious conclutions. But, however, when this fubjea ihould come for- I ward for difcuifion, after the recefs, he truned every document neceffary to its fulleft inveftiga- tion would be produced on the part of Govern. =tent. He was ready to make every allowance for the hi h &nation of his Right Hon. w admit, was dais' so snore cafe 'could be suds the • • • tity of Idency to the' Colin. lig ~ : .decay 4 1 ry. Such a cafe he cularly from Livi e out on the proper faits. He (poke n time, he hoped all one of our molt ii Houfe, ari fi ng from namely, the Well men Mr. ATCIII O General Gascoio Nt , and Mr. VANSITTA IT , the _Petition was received a n d ordered to lie on the table. Angus IN THI mAvv. Captain lkoimistudtat moved the O r d er of the Day or the fecond r ea di ng o f the Bill for veiling the Board of Admiralty with certain powers for punifhing Abufes. Admiral BSC( es.a v raid, he hoped to hear finite explanation of a miftake which it was appreh en d ed he Laboured under yellerday. He did fay, th at he apprehended the Ad m i ra l ty were in 2ofeffiort of power fullicient to appoint Conunithoners to examine i nto ' du* sbufes, without Coming to that Houfe. An Hon. %Nieman thenfaid, there wa s no fuch thing, without *tripling a n y reafon what. ever for laying fo. H e had not then ken the pa tent of the Lords of th e N avy B oard, fo that he doubted whether he had not b een under fome mit take, but he had this day exam i ne d the Patent, the refult of which wax a co nv icti on i n his own mind now, that he was correa in what h e lived yeller. day on the fubjelt of the power of the Board to which he had alluded, that the Admiralty certain ly had the power, and th at t h ey h ad it to a much greater degree than he h a d b e f ore apprehended a they y, ha b d y t w h h o at we w v a er s , ra t i ha d y t e ; cwa r s d all perfeetly d one ay on th e neee f f i ty of this meafure, a necefflty which he did not by any means pretend to controvert. He believed it was perfeefly neceffary that the Houfe fhould en. tertain this Bill, for that it was fit that the power it tended to delegate, should be lodged with Com. miffioners chofen for that purpofe ; he would, however. remind the Houle of a faying of a Noble Lord, which, although a joke, was full of prong fenfe and meaning, of the firength and import. ance of the Admiralty Board.—" That the Navy Board was hcwn out of the Admiral Tree." He did not ufe this exprefflon with a view to oppofe this Bill, but merely to juilify hinifelf in the af fertion he made relpeaing the original power of the Board of Admiralty, and he raid it alfo by way of caution, left fome of the public Papers should mifiake his meaning, and confequently mifrepre lent what he faid. Mr. COOPER laid, that on the fubjetl now before the Houfe, he thought it his duty to deliver hit. fentiments. I; had been afked, why the Admi. ralty fhonld come to Pat Lament for a power which they had already ? That was not correct ly Rated, and that objeaion had been anfwered, yeiterday, ery ably, by the Minifter, by laying, that the Power vetted in the Navy B oard was not fufficient for the purpore intended ; and, he added, that fufficient power fkould be given to the Committee for that purpo(s. Indeed, if the Powers of the a 'he th fa o i n r g an ht d th m is a c n r i l y urf man e one. Navy were five times greater than they are, comein f il o; d rar th d e To n th °t : Hottib and Paid, “ There are a t many abates in the Navy Department, earn call OQ you, as the Guardians of the interefts of the coun try, to adminifter the remedy ?” He willed to know, whether any meafare could be more direa, honourable, and fair than this ? He alluded to fame in fi nuations which had been cart out aanft a Noble Lord high in Office, upon the ok or Pa, tronage. If there was any charge agWilhat Noble Lord, let it be slide fairly ;let the queftion be brought to view in a manly and fair manaer ; but let not the Houfe compromife its dignity, by liftening to infinuations and allegations, that were made without the shadow of proof to fupport diem. But what was the capital crime imputed to Admi ninration ? Why, we were told that a gallant Of• ficer, an Admiral, who, during the late war, eon• dated hinifelf with great gallantry in the fervice of his King and Country, had been appointed Am lutrador to the Court of St. Peterfburgh. If merit was to be imputed to a man as a clime, he ad mitted the complaint is its full extent ; but it was laid, it was very unufual to fend Admirals, or any Naval Officers, on Embaffies : he law nothing in the olajeftion, unlefs incapacity to fill the Diplo matic Station could be proved. Upon the whole matter, he approved of this Bill as a part of the generalfyfem of the prefent Adminiftration, which was that of vigilance, moderation, economy, and corration of abufes. If thefe were to be thelgrounds of ieproach to the Adminiftration, they ihnuld have his fupport as long as they continued to com mit fuch like enormities. Mr. GARTHEHORE (one of the Lords of the Ad miralty) replied to fome obfervations that he con ceived to have been made by Admiral Berkeley refpcding the powers of the Navy Board to invef tigate this matter. Admiral BERKELEY, in explanation, Paid , tha t he had been mifunder ftood. He did not fay that the Navy Beard had thofe powers, but he thought it competent for the Admiralty to appoint a Board, which would be adequate to the inveftigation of this butinefs. Mr. jaavis dented that the Admiralty had the power of appointing fuch Commiffioners as the as went to appoint. It would be recolleaed that one of the objeas of this Aft was the regulation of Prize Agents. This was a fubjea molt unqueltion• ably not within the jurifdiaion of the Admiralty Board at prefent. Another power that is fought to be given to thofe Commiffioners, is that of call• ing for all papers and records that may b e necef fary in their enquiries. This was a power which the Admiralty had not at prefent,.and therefore could not poffibly communicate to any Board they might create. But there was another reafon infi nitely more important in the appointment of there CommiXo:.ers. It was not intended merely to look into the abufes which prevailed in the infe rior departments of the Navy. The abufes, if any exifted, in the Admiralty or Navy Boards, were alfo to be examined by thefe C o mmiffioners, who were to dire4t their inquiries from the higheft the lowe ft departments of the Navy. It woula therefore appear evident, that thole Boards ough t not to be judges in their own caufe. He cou ld afthre chore Gentlemen whofuppofed, tatalthough the Admiralty Board might be too much occupied, yet that the Navy Board had leifure time enough, that this fuppnfitinn was by the falt • The Gentlemen who compoleci that Board were, to his knowledge, extremely attent i ve to the dudes of their fituauon ; but thofe duucso NMI no means agreeable to -- .