Star. — London, England, 1824-02-11 00:00:00

• pions on the state of Ireland, who Could not bear wit wess to his repeated declarations, that he considered the residence of the Clergy within their respective parishes, and the enforcement of such residence, one of the mea sures which it would be most desirable to adopt towards ameliorating the condition of that country. Under that impression, he had, in the course of the. last Ses sion, pledged himself to the house to turn his atten tion particularly to the subject; and it was his inten tion, in the course of a few days, to submit to the House a measure which he had prepared, with a view to the effecting of that object. Mr. HUME feared that the object of the Noble Lord would not he attained by the Returns that would be made un.iet his Motion, as it then stood ; because if an incumbent ba,i only resided on his living one month within the dear, Le would be included in the return of resident incumbents, equally with those who had re sided several months, or even the whole twelve. Lord A LTIIORI' expressed his willingness to adopt any amendment or addition to the Motion which might be suggested by the Honourable Member with a view to rendering the information which it was his object, to attlin mote co'nplete. Mr. HUME said he would suggest, that in.addition to what was already moved for the return, it should specify the number of months within the year that each incumbent had been resident, distinguishing them in classes of three, si x, nine, and twelve months' residents. Mr. CHOKER said he did not know how it was pos sible that such a return could be made without appeal ing to every individual clergyman holding a living in the kingdom. Mr. HUME said nothing could be more easy, since it was only necessary to desire each incumbent to make a return of the number of months he had resided on his living within the year, and one post might carry out all the letters. _ Mr. VESEY FITZGERALD hoped the House would not, by acceding to the amendment suggested, adopt the language of the Honourable Member, casting, as it did, a stigma upon the characters of the Bishops of Ire land, by holding them forth as men capable of making fallacious or improper returns. The Motion as amended would, besides, be found extremely difficult to carry into effect, nor did he think it at all necessary. It was impossible, while speaking upon this subject, for one who knew the facts which had come to his knowledge of the exertions which had been made by the present Government of Ireland to enforce the residence of the Clergy, by the careful selection of proper persons, and the judicious disposal of its patronage in the appoint ment to church livings, and other ecclesiastical prefer. ments which had occurred of late, to refrain from giving them the testimony of his earnest approbation. Mr. HUME, on the question being put, formally moved, as an amendment, the insertion of the number of months during which each incumbent has resided on his living within the year, and defended the grounds on which he had originally suggested it—namely, the pro bability of those who had resided only for the shortest period that could be mentioned being included in the general return as resident incumbents, by referring to former returns which he mentioned, as having been made in the same vague and general way, whereby the object for which information was sought would be defeated. Sir JOHN NEWPORT said, the error to which the Honourable Member alluded had arisen not from any wilful neglect on the part of the Bishops, but from their too great reliance on the Registrars of their Dio ceses; but he did not see bow that could occur in the present case. Mr. VESEY FITZGERALD thought the amend ment would rather defeat than forward the object of the Noble Lord, who wished for such a return as would convey the best general view of the state of the stoferal parishes of Ireland with respect to the residence of the Clergy, whereas the amendment would load the return with a variety of details that would only serve to dis turb the general view of the question, by distracting it with particulars. Mr. HUME said he thought the general view sought by the Noble Lord would be best attained by such a return as would present a fair average of the residence of the Clergy, and not by one which would include equally under the general head of resident incumbents those who only resided one month and those who re sided the whole twelve upon their livings. Mr. ROBERTSON thought it incumbent on the House to enforce the residence of the Clergy as much as possible. lie could not let that occasion pass with out thanking the Noble Lord for the zeal with which he had entered upon the cause which be had under taken. He trusted the Noble Lord would persevere in what he had so well begun, and hoped that he would meet with the cordial support of the British Members of the House ; for he was convinced that it was only through the exertions of the British Members of the House that any good could be effected for Ireland, par taking, as everything did which came from that coun try through any of the Members immediately connected with it, ot the heat and violence of party. After a few words from Mr. UOULBURN and Mr Purr., the motion as amended was agreed to. The question tot the Return of the number of Acres of Land in each Parish in the possession of the Church being put, Mr. tiOULBURN said this was a Return which, as far as lie was aw at e, it was not in the power of the Officers of Government to make, from the absolute ant of means for ascertaining the number of Acres which each Parish contained, until an actual admea serenient of the country should take place. Sir .1. NEWPORT said it was very possible that the Officers of Goveinment might not be able to tell, with out actual admeasurement, the number of acres which every palish contained ; but leans' there could be no difficulty in every man telling what land was held under him. He was fully comidetit that there was not a Bishop in Ireland who was nut able to tell with per fect accuracy how many acres ot land he had set under him, and by whom they were held. Lord ALTHORP thought with his Right Honour. able Fiiend, that there could be no uitficulty whatever in procuring the Returns, if there were no objection to giving the information. Mr. MAI3ERLY said if the House was disposed to concur in such uhjections as the ltight Honourable Se cretary for Ireland had been making to . the producti o n of the returns moved fur by his Noble Friend, it would be better at once to adjourn the Sec - ion; for it was quite impossible for them to legislate upon the affairs of Ireland, or to enter into the discussion of any mea sloe for the improvement of that country, if the infor- MA.IOII requisite for enabling them to obtain an insight ilao its situation, and :o understand the nature and can-es oi the evils which it was proposed •to remedy, were to be withheld, and the papers moved fur were refused. __~ , Mr. GOULBUI U exp! essed his surprise that ally charge should have been made against him of a disp o . sitiun to refuse or withhold intelligence, particularly by an Honourable Member who was so 'emit; kable for the accuracy if his statements in general. Hew as sure that if the Honourable Member took the pains only to look to the number of papers laid on the table since he had been in office, he would find that thete existed no ground whatever for such a charge against him. It was but the other evening that he had granted $O,OOO accounts to the Right Honourable Baronet opposite— (Hear, and laughter). Sir J. NEWPORT expressed his surpti..e at the con fidence with which the Right Hon. Gentleman stated that lie had granted 30,000 accounts on his(Sir J. New port's) motion. He had, in fact, granted no such thing. The accounts alluded to sums of money levied in the several parishes of behind for the builling and repair ing of Churches, together with the rates of assessment, , sitlari-s of clerks and other officers, and also to the num ber of Cathedrals in Ireland consolidated with Parish Churches; the amount of sums levied upon such parishes for repairs, and the number of persons constituting the vestries making such assessments. In moving for those accounts he stated, what he would now repeat, that he hooked upon them as so important in their nature that they ought on no account to be withheld, even if they were twice as numerous as they really might prove ; for he conceived it to be a matter of vital importance to the people of Ireland, as well as of any other coun try, if they were to be taxed, that they should know b) whom the taxes which they were called upon to' pay were imposed. The return was then ordered ; and on the question being put on the Motion for a Return of the number of Roman Catholics appointed to the Office of Assist An t within the last five years, Mr. GOULBURN said he did not see how this return, and those which were to follow it, could be made with out the •ery objectionable proceeding were adopted of calling on every individual holding such appointment to make a confession of his private opinions in matters of faith, which was neither expedient nor consistent with the regard due to personal feelings. Lord ALTHORP said, he did not see any greater in delicacy in inquiring %%healer certain individuals were Roman Catholics or not, than in inquiring whether they were Assistant Barristers or not. _ _ Mr. MABERLY said, if papers were to be refused on such grounds as had been urged by the Honourable Secretary for Ireland, half the information respecting that country, which it was necessary for the English Members of that House to obtain, must be withheld. Mr. CROKEIt said, there were no means, as the law now stood in Ireland, of detecting who were Papists or who were not. Previously to the extension of the right of voting at elections to Papists, every freeholder, on presenting himself to vote, was required to declare, on oath, that he was not a Papist, before he was permitted to vote. Then came the Act of the 13th or llth Geo. ILL which prescribed an oath by which Papists were allowed to testify their loyalty; on the taking of which they were allowed to vote. The laws had gradually been changed to such a degree, that they wet e now in a state, he could not say so disgraceful, because there was no disgrace in such alterations as were the natural growth of time and the altered circumstances of the country ; but they were in so confused and absurd a state, that the only Act which prevented Papists from enjoying in full all the i 'rights and privileges which their Protestant fellow subjects possessed, was that which enumerated certain offices which it declared wete not to be held by Papists, and yet there was no test presctibed by anv law whereby it could be known who was a Papist and will:. a Protestant. First of all, there had been exacted an oath that the party was not a Papist, without which he was not al lowed to since ; then, on the extension of the elective franchise to Papists, that oath was done away, and an oath was substituted testifying the loyalty of the party, on taking which he was allowed to vote. An Act was afterwards introduced, by which (to prevent delays at elections) the last-mentioned oath was allowed to be taken on the spot ; but before that Acc passed, lie (Mr. Croker) saw the following curious circumstance happen. A voter came up to the poll, and was asked for the cer tificate of his having taken the Papists oath, and on searching he discovered that he had lost it ; " but," said he, " as 1 have lost my certificate as a Papist, I will vote as a Protestant." Everybody present was surprised, the books were turned over for the law of the case, but no law could be found whereby the Papist could be caught and detected from a Protestant ; so that he who had taken the oath as a Papist, merely because he had lost his certificate on his way to the poll, voted as a Protest ant. There was no means by which the one could certainly be distinguished from the other. So that with respect to the returns moved for by the Noble Lord, with the exception of that relating to the Barristers, which might be made out by means of the roll that was kept of the oaths taken by them when sworn, which distinguished the Papist from the Protestant, there was no other that could be made. Mr. Secretary PEEL, referring to the Act of 1791, which required English Roman Catholics, in certain cases, to declare, "1, A. B. do profess the Roman Ca tholic faith," said he could see no objection to the call ing upon such persons, holding the offices to which the returns referred, as were Roman Catholics, to make a similar declaration. But he felt that there was consi &rable force in the objection taken by his Honourable Friend the Secretary ler Ireland, to the calling upon in dividuals to make a confession of their particular faith. Sir F. BURDEVI remarked upon the inconsistency of the objections severally urged by those who had spoken against the returns moved for by his Noble Friend. —The Motion was then put and agreed to. Lord A LTHORP then waived for the present the Motion for the Returns of Roman Catholics appointed Clerks of the Peace, Clerks of the Crown, and Crown Solicitor. A message was received front the Lords, requesting to be fur nished with a Copy of the Report of the Select Committee of the [louse of Commons on the Employment of the Poor in Ireland, which was ordered. ESIPANNELING OF JURIES. Mr. Secretary PEEL gave notice, that he would move, on Friday, the 27th of February, for leave to bring in a Bill for consolidating and amending the laws! relating to the Empanneling of Juries. Mr. WESTERN observed, that he could not but con sider it a want of courtesy upon the pint of the Right Hon. Secretary (Mr. Peel) to bring forward a measure like the present while a similar one, which had been originated by him (Mr. Western), was pending. He had last year brought forward a measure which had for its object the regulation of Juries. Thi. measure the !tight Hun. Secretas y had thought proper to oppose, and not content with that opposition, he had, before his (Mr. Western's) motion was disposed of, brought forward the present measure, in which he had embodied all his (Mr. West:. te.) views, and bad even circulated his opitiJns fiis in a written tam through that House. It Was on t account that he complained of couttesy on the part of the Right Hon. Secretary, Mr. Secretary PEEL rose to vindicate himself from the charge btor.ght apaiiist him by the Honourable Member. When the Honourable Meml , er had brought forward the motion to which lie alluded, he (Mr. Peel) had expressed his objections, and in those objections (if he mistook nazi the Honourable Member had hinisell acquiesced. With respect to the measure before the house, he could safely assert that it essentially differel from that of the Honourable Member, although with respect to the claim of originality, he did not mean to contest it ; on the contrary, he gave the Honourable Member every credit for his measure, which, as it was of a more limited and particular nature than the one which he (\lr. Peel) had submitted to the House, it could be embodied in his, and thus the country could reap the benefit of Loth. Holding the situation which he did, ' he conceived it his duty to bestow much of his attention on the Criminal Laws of the country, and he perceived that much evil had proceeded from the want of any attempt at the consolidation of thine which related to the formation and empannelinn , of Juries. Ills object 'had been therefore to supply this deficiency ; and with respect to the observatioir which the Honourable Member had made, as to his having circulated a copy of his Bill through the House, he had in so doing only pursued the ordinary course, which was to get it printed, and circulate it amongst his private friends, with a view to collect their objections, or Secure their approbation of the measure. In conclu sion, he could only repeat that his Bill was distinct from that of the Honourable Member, although not opposed to it, and that if the House should affirm his (Mr. Peel's) Bill, that of the Honour able Member might with advantage be incorporated into it. Without mean ing, therefore, to throw any obstacle in the way of the Honourable Member's (Mr. Western) motion, he should go on with his ow ii, which had for its object to conso lidate the laws relative to the formation and empannel ing of Juries into one, and to repeal all others from the &acute Book.—After a few words from Mr. Hums, Mr. Pam and Mr. WUTERN explained. Mr. Serjeant ONSLOW rose to move for leave to bring in a Bill to alter and amend the laws which regulated and restrained the rate of interest on money. Having on former occasions so fully 'expressed his sentiments on the subject, he should for the present refrain from enlarging on it, reserving himself to a future stage, when, if he beard any objections from those opposed to him, the courtesy of the House would allow hint to reply. After a few words from Sir M. Cnoutonnerxr, leave was given. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER gave notice that he would to-morrow, in the Committee of Supply, move for as account of all outstanding Exchequer Bills, and the interest thereon, from the sth of January, 1823, to the sth January, 1824. Mr. GRATTAN gave notice of a motion upon the subject of the Irish Local Police. The object of the Hon. Member's motion was to move for a return of the names and numbers of the police constables, &c. stationed in the several districts in Ireland, with a view to ground upon it some ulterior measure arising out of the con duct of some of that body. The Hon. Member, while he did justice to their general usefulness, complained of some particular instances of oppression, and alluded to the case of his own steward, wbo had met his death in consequence of their ill-treatment. Mr. GOULBURN laid upon the table an account of the sums to be paid as a compensation to the Prethonotaries of the Court of Exchequer in Ireland. —Adjourned. WEST INDIA PROPRIETORS. Yesterday a General Meeting of West India Planters, Merchants, Annuitants, and others interested in the Bri tish West India Colonies, was held at the City of Lon don Tavern, on important business connected with their affairs. The Meeting was very numerously and respect ably attended. At half-past one o'clock the Chair was taken by C. It. ELLIS, Esq. M.P. supported by Mr. Keith Douglas, M.P. Mr. C. Grant, M.P. Mr. Manning, M.P. Mr. Pares, M.P. Mr. Watson Taylor, M.P. Mr. Birch, M.P. Mr. John Fuller, and a large body of the Merchants and Proprietors interested in West India property. The CHAIRMAN said, that before they proceeded to the regular business of the dav, it would be as well to dispose of a qaestion on which there could not possibly arise a difference of opinion—he meant the addition of names called for to increase the number of the Standing Committee.—The names of a number of Gentlemen were then added to that Committee: among others, The Earl of Harewood, the Hon. W. Lascelles, M.P. Lord St. Vincent, Lord Saltoun, Right Hon. Sir George Rose, M.P. Joserh Birch, Esq. 11.1".. W. It. Keith Douglas, Esq. M.P. John Irving, Esq. M.P. John Gladstone. Esq. M.P. Philip John Miles, Esq. M. P. Edward Ellice, Esq. M.P. &c. &c. The CHAIRMAN then said, that in consequence of the very general opinion of the present alarming situation of the West Indies, he had ordered the present Meeting to be convened. He had also called together the Standing Committee, to see what measures were best to be pro posed. It had appeared to the Committee, that the misrepresentations as to the state of their slaves, and the calumnies cast on their masters, called for a solemn protest against the attacks made upon their property.— This appeared the more necessary, from the conduct of the Government and Parliament, and the attacks made upon West Indian property, which had been ac knowledged and recognised as solemnly as any other species of property whatever. It therefore appeared, that if it were thought necessary to interfere with that pro; perty, full compensation ought to be made to them. It also appeared to the Committee, that the protection of their property could not be better guarded than by a petition to the King, from whom, by grants from die' Crown, they derived their lands. Triey also thought, that in the present distressed state of the West Indies, they could not but look up to the King, whose voice might remove the exaggerated expectations of the Ne groes, and remove the well-grounded fears of their • masters. With this view had the Petition been framed. These two objects seemed to be of such paramount im portance, that they had carefully abstained from other matters, upon which they might well have animadverted. He should occupy no more of their time, but would read the Petition to his Majesty. The Petition touched upon the general topics of the Chairman's speech, and it prayed his Majesty not to sanction any Acts of the Legislature which would in fringe on West India property, unless a fund ue:e pro vided tbr full and fair compensation. C. N. PALMER, Esq. took the liberty to propose the Petition for the adoption of that numerous and hi g hly respectable Meeting. He was pleased to find that all points of irritation and difference of opinion %vete ex chided from the Petition, and ever)thing that might be seized upon by stirei tidal humanity. He sas glad, too, to find that the PJ:ition was coutined to full an.i fair com!..ensation. The Petition would teach their op• ponenis a lesson of temptrance and *limier:l6on, which Must always ensure success to every just cause. He never despaired of the West Indian CA nits, a last the% were true to themselves, and never would, until they su..- feted their feelings to get the better of their judgment. G. W. TavLon, E.q. M. P. seconded the motion. This v as nut a time to enter into an enlarged discussion on the sul-ject, al.cr ti-c v ise and feeling declaration in his Majesty's Speech ; and he hoped thit giais'erit would temper zeal with justice and uscideratidn. Mr. CARkiNdTON should enter into a short review of the causes of their present sittlation, but without tres passing on the bounds of moderation. The direct ob ject of the Petition Was to apply to his Majesty to pro tect their rights and property. He depieeated the duet; ference of Parliament with the West India Colonies, the evils from which had been ably and truly predicted by those best acquainted with the state of our possessions in that part of the world. These predictions were die regarded, until in one night a limn iSbing and beautiful co.ony was put in a state of horror and Antis. Even the grossest calumnies had been cast upon the colonists, and the cause of the insurrection was misrepresented. Th at it proceeded from the interference he had alluded to, he might appeal to a gallant Officer and a Learned Gentleman, to shew that at the place of execution the slaves made not the smallest complaint against their masters. These facts proved beyond a doubt that a course of interference, such as the Slave Registry Bill, was a course of the most imminent danger. No prin ciple was so true, as that property so violated was entitled to the fullest compensation. He repeated, that neither in Demerara nor Barbadoes had the unhappy Negroes, even in their dying moments, uttered any complaints against their masters. He presumed not to point out that course which ought to be adopted, but he recom mended unity of action, and cordial co-operation in their exertions. He was persuaded that investigation, as far as it had gone, proved most fully the falsehood of the assertion, that no steps had been taken to ins prove the moral condition of the slaves. The steps, perhaps, might not be so rapid as had been expected; but though gradual they were not the less sure. The re medy for these evils, he considered, must be by re tracing the steps by which the Colonies had been thrown into confusion and dismay ; but that was a subject upon which he must touch with caution. Let them then never lose sight of the principle of compensation, though they had been somewhat :;low in asserting tha! r fight. He trusted that the Petition would be the means of tran quillizing the Colonies, and of removing that state of sus pense which to him was more dreadful than an) certainty. Mr. MAYERS thought it strange that a Meeting of ' that body on so important a subject had not been con ; vened before that day. To the Chairman and Mr. Palmer he felt the greatest gratitude: formerly he had been struck down a ith dismay, but now he was full of hope and expectation ; and he would do all in his power ; to strengthen the union which at present existed among them. The constitutional declarations in Parliament also insp(ed him with confidence; but let them not forget that they had to contend with the subtlety of the serpent, and though they had scotched the stake, the reptile was not yet dead. He must say that the occur , rences of last year were unparalleled in the history of this country. The vilest calumnies had been bandied ' about from one end of the country to the other against them. They ought to have refuted those calumnies, and have shewn that their distresses had been fostered, if not caused, by Parliamentary interference. He would charge the Colonial Department with having precipi tated the Colonies into confusion and violence. Such a charge might lead to unpleasant discussion. Mr. Wily berforce and his party entertained what they had now acknowledged to be groundless, that there had been an illicit importation of Slaves into our West India Islands. On this account they introduced the Slave Registz y the great cause of all their evils. He wished that papers respecting the Negro Insurrection in Barbadoes would ' be moved fur in Parliament, and they would shew that ! no blame was to be imputed to the planters. Mr. HIBBERT rose to explain airy he did not go ' largely into the subject. It had been agreed at the Committee to go no farther into it at present than had been touched upon in the Petition, which he hoped would be immediately signed by the numerous assembly then before him. He had at no time advanced opinions which he would not have felt had he not been a Jamaica Planter and Merchant. He was sorry that his con stituents had drawn an inference that Ministers had denied their claims to compensation. This was a mis apprehension, and he should grieve to think that any such intention, or appalling sentence, had been uttered by Ministers. Still the Resolutions passed in Jamaica had, in his opinion, done good ; and he hoped that the steps already taken would be retraced. He saw some hopes of that from the Speech of his Majesty at the commencement of the Session. Mr. GOSSETT, M.P. hoped that means would be taken to tranquillize the Negro population ; and to re store confidence to the Whites. Major D'Atarac next addressed the Meeting. We understood him to say, that he possessed a small poi perty in the West Indies, which, however, small as it might be, he would not willingly expose to unnecessary risk. The question of the present state of the colonies was a most important one, and ought to be approached with caution; but whatever were the decisions, they ought to be acted upon with firmness; but every mea sure which might now be adopted ought to have in view the ultimate abolition of slavery, for he felt con vinced that the West India interests would never test upon: a firm basis until the great object was accom plished--Olisapprobation). He would not then enter Upon the details of that important topic, for he was aware that there were many persons who looked anon the ques tion of einancipation, however remote, with htirror and dismay. He, for one, could not enter into such feelings : he could anticipate no such horrible consequences; he thought the diffusion of knowledge among the Negroes a necessary prepag ative for final emancipation—(Hessef, and cries of " to, or ' ) After a short time Major D'Albiac proceeded: he thought the advantage of 3 public meeting was, that all should be heard, and that horn the different opinions on both sides of a question, truth might be best elicited. (Here the interruptions %vete so frequent, that we cold,' only distinguish the Gentle man's voice, w without being able to col:ect what he said, until some one a ied out, " Saint 1") Major D'A Lame I ant na saint, I have more of the character of a sinner ; but sinner as 1 am, I will not be rut down by clamour; 1 will continue to assert my right to be heard." He then proceeded, and read his first resolution (as given below.) During the reading of this, and the two that followed it, the interruptions were so loud, that Ns e could hear notfing distinctly. At the fou: th resolution, Maio: D'Albiac said, " Gentle men, Ishall wait until you have done hissing, and then I sl all go on ; for I am determined to read them all." (Here he was assailed with .such loud vociferations, in termingled with hisses, and the occasional allu ion of " You come float Wilberforce"—" . You are from the African lostitution," and sia Lat. remarks, that he was quite unable to proceed, and obliged to appeal to the. Chair for protection.) The CHAIRMAN lobe and said—" Gentlemen, I ask you, is your cause such that you uecd be afraid to hear ~ti iiiliiii