Star. — London, England, 1819-02-05 00:00:00

tic 1 ~. ri I t Is' _ e - powers should be vested in the Duke of York, which l . been adopted in the former case, which might be by the Bill of 1811 had been confided to her late' considered a fit precedent, particularly as it was the . Majesty. He was sure there could be no difference! conise most consistent with fairness to an Honour- . of opinion as to the fitness of the person to whom :tole Mentber not then pre:Rl% ! the Bill now before the House entrusted these powers The SPEAKER said, he understood that the act —(Hear, hear, hear.)—He intended to propose that complained of had occurred since the last Election. this Bill should be read a second time this evening. Sir ROBERT WILSON said, it was subsequent It was founded on the principle that there was no to the late General Election. Ile was happy to con- individual within the circle of the Royal Family, to cur in what had fillets from the Chair, and from tLe whom the discharge of the peculiar duties mentioned- Noble Lord opposite, and theiefore moved—That in this Bill, could be so fitly entrusted as to his Royal the lion. Wyndham Quin be ordered to attend in his Highness the Duke of York—( Hear, hear, hear.j— place this day duce weeks. It was his intention to propose, that the part of the Mr. W. WYNN thought " eight days," should be Prince Regent's Speech which alluded to the Wind substituted for " three weeks." sor Establishment, should be referred to a Select Lord CASTLEREAGH said, his object was, that Cominittee. The subject being one of detail, as well there might be as little delay as possible. Perhaps as of very great delicacy, and much information the Honourable Gentleman was on his Way to town. being required to form a judgment upon it, that in- Let eight days be substituted, and, if not then present, forniatton could only be obtained through a Corn th' House would probably excuse him, and extend mittee, which he should that night propose to nomi the time:—(llear, hear.) nate. He did not propose that night to take a vote Sir ROBERT WILSON then moved that the llon. on the merits of the question ; but meant to put the Wyndham Quin be ordered to attend the House, in House in possession of the question itself; and it re his place this day sennight . .—(7arried nitanimously rained for hint (Lord C.) then to state the nature of NORTHERN - CIRCUITS. ~ the proceedings he n'teant to offer to the considera- Mr. M. A. TAYLOR rose, pursuant to his notice, Lion of the House. He did not mean to call upon to move that the Assizes should be held twice a year the House for any new grant of money to the Crown in the four Northern Counties. At the subject had —but on the contrary to divest the Crown of those been several times discussed last year, there was no funds which already belonged to the Establishment, occasion for him to take up the time of the House on and to apply to Parliament to make such deductions this occasion, especially as time was little or ho dif- in the Establishment •at Windsor as could not take Imam of opinion on the subject. He was happy to p l ace w i t h out i ts sanct i on . Hi s p r opo s ition then state, dint his Majesty's Ministers had already taken would go to enable the Crown to divest itself of the some considerable steps to accomplish the object in sum he should mention, and place the same in the view. He then moved that an Address be presented consolidated fund, so as to be applied to the exigencies to the Prince Regent, praying that measures might of the State. Whatever surplus remained in this be adopted for holding Assizes twice a year in the part of the Civil List at the end of the year, should four Northern Counties, and that tl:e House would go to the consolidated fund ; but as to the savings make good any expenses incurred for that purpose. t hat should be made in oter branches of the Civil The SOLICITOR-GENERAL assured the House Lis:, they might he applied to certain uses connected that the subject had been under the anxious conside, with the Household, whenever it should be deemed ration of his Majesty's Government, and that an ar- necessary. It was, however, the wish of his Royal rangement was nsay in progress for accomplishing the Highness, that whatever surplus could he spared desirable object mentioned in the Address. from the Civil List, should be applied to the exigen- Mr. DENMAN expressed much surprise that the cies of the State. A grant of £lOO,OOO a-year had House was now, for the first time, informed that the been made to the King for his life ; and whatever subject was under the consideration of Government. saving accrued from that sum was applicable to the It was nearly twelve months since the Report of the wants of the Treasury. A Parliamentary proceed- Committee on this subject had been presented. At ing, however, would be necessary to transfer such the last Assi4es, the four Northern Counties had pe- sums to the uses of the public ; for without such titioned to be placed on the same footing as to the proceeding, the saving of £58,000 which was now administration of justice with the other parts of the the subject of his Royal Highness's Message, would kingdom. He was very happy to agree to the pre- go to the Civil List. Parliament then was not ap sent motion, especially as he understood that the plied to for a new grant of money, but for its autho number of Judges was not to be increased. The City to divest the Crown of this sum ; and he hoped Honourable and Learned Member, after some oh. the House would consider this as an earnest desire on nervations on the evils of increasing the number of the part of the Crown to co-operate with Parliament Judges, expressed a hope that the object mentioned in supporting the exigencies of the country. He in the Address would be speedily accomplished. should now proceed to the general arrangement he Lord CASTLEREAGH repelled the charge of proposed to lay down. Out of the sum which con • s upineness on the part of Government as to this ques- ginned the Windsor Establishment, he proposed that tion. Such bad not by any means been the character the sum of £lO,OOO be appropriated to the expense of their conduct. It was no wonder that Govern- attending the custody of his Majesty, and to be un ment had not yet fixed upon any plan, when it was der the management of the Duke of York. If Par considered that the Honourable Mover of the Ad- hanient gave his Royal Highness the high authority dress, and the nonourable and Learned Member in question, it would be necessary also to allow him who spoke last, differed in opinion as to the propriety the means of defraying the expenses attendant upon of increasing the number of Judges. it. He should now come to the Windsor Establish- Mr. M. A. TAYLOR said, if he had thought any ment, comprising the £lOO,OOO granted to the King, discussion was to have taken place on this subject,he and the £58,000 which censtituted the income of the would have entered into it fully.—Motion agreed to. King : Out of this sum there would eventually be ROYAL MESSAGE. a saving of £lOB,OOO, subject to the necessity of Lord CASTLEREAGH appeared at the Bar, and making provision for certain parts of the Royal Fa delivered a Message from his Royal Highness the roily. When the £58,000 which belonged to the Prince Regent, which was read by the Speaker, and Queen was taken away, there was £lOO,OOO which was as follows : was hitherto applicable to the Establishment of the " Groans, P. ll.—The Prince Regent, acting in the name inn . This Establishment he tiro posed to reduce M and on the behalf of his aj.:ity, acquaints the anise of Corn- ''" mous, that the sum of 58;W/. per annum, 'which , in the din- to 40,000, which should in future constitute the tribution of his Majesty's Civil List Revenue, was appropriated Windsor Establishment. A sum Of £25,000 was to the maintenance of the Establishment, and to the support of also to be applied to a provision for the servants ; the honour and dignity of the queen, having, by the lamented and then the saving from the whole of the present demise of her Majesty, become disposable by his Royal High- W . LI E stablishmentl2lsB,ooo, would be ei h iit or , g ty ess fur the general purpne:s of the Civil List, the Pi ince lie ;ent places this sum at the dispokal of Parliament. lle thinks three thousand pounds. But after the annuities of it at the same time hicumbeLt upon him to state, that there •C'25,000, allowed to servants, should fall in, the exists certain claims upon a part .if this saving, which he recoan- whole saving would then amount to £108,000. mends to the justice and liberality of the I louse of Commons : ~. were to be carried to the Civil List, but 1 These claims are founded on the filitil . lll services of the persons Ile savings who formed the svarate EstahlishmeDt of her late Majesty, and lie could not have a less revenue than 50,0001. for are limited to those services. the future Windsor Establishment. While the late The Prince Regent is satisfied that he may confidently rely ijueen continued at the head of the Establishment, on the loyal attachment of the (louse of Commons to enable 7' there was a great difficulty in attempting to make him, upon the reduction of that Establishment, to grant to the several individuals belonging to it, such allowances as it has any reduction in it. Even those Gentlemen who been usual for the Crown to bestow on former occasions when were anxious to promote plans of economy in that the Royal Family has been visited with a similar affliction." House, saw that such a difficulty existed. Indeed, Lord CASTLEREAGH said, he meant first to during the lice-time cf the Queen no material saving propose an Address in answer to this gracious Mes - cou ld b e made. She was entitled to her own income sage. He would afterwards move, that the Message of 58,0001. and if the King had died, she, as Queen be taken into consideration, and then that it be re- Dowager, would, by law, have b een ent i tled to an tarred to a Committee of the whole House, *.o which income of 10000/. How, then, could any saving also he meant to move, that the part of the Speech have been made in an Establishment which, for the of the Lords Commissioneis, touching the demise of King and Queen, amounted to 58,000/. The whole her late Majesty, should also be referred. lie then question of saving then resolved itself into a question Moved, that an humble Address be presented to his a s to the retirement of State servants, the saving Royal Highness, stating, ' that the House had re caused by which would not amount to 6000/. ceived his Royal Highness s gracious Message, and Being now prepared to recommend that a reduction would proceed to take tho same into immediate con- should take place in the Windsor Establishment, he "sideration.—The Motion was agreed to. would explain why it had not been done before. The wI N DSO R EsTBLISIIMENT. Parliament certainly had in contemplation the pro- Lord CASTLEREAGH moved, that that part of bability of the Kings not being able ever to reeovey ; the Lords Commissioners Speech at the opening of but they had now the painful confirmation of many the Session, which related to the demise of her Ma- years, that there was not the slightest hope of such jesty, be read.—The Clerk then read the Message. an event taking place. An idea, however, prevailed, Lord CASTLEREAGH said, that the House had that his Majesty might experience a partial reco already carried to the Throne their deep and heartfelt very—and it would be a most melancholy thing . to ctesdolence on the melancholy demise of her Majesty. think that on such an occasion he should not find It now remained for them to enter upon the other himself surrounded by these servants and officers of duties which had arisen out of that sad event. But State to whom he had been accustomed. The reduc as it had not been his lot to be present on the former tion, therefore, was never proposed, and it would have occasion, he trusted he might be ailowed to take this been painful to the feelings of her Majesty to agi opportunity of expressing the deep sense which he aate a question of the kind while she lived—but now feir of the services which had been rendered by her a line might be drawn between what was due to pub late Majesty to the State, during the protracted pe- lic economy, and the feelings of respect and venera eiod of 57 years in which she had shared the throne Lion which must be entertained for the Royal Fa of our rev ered . Monarc h . The example of una ff ected mily. In doing this, a reference might be had to piety ma . of unostentatious oharity which had been the domestic habits of his Majesty. There were many afforded by her Majesty, must long continue to ope- officers belonging to his town Establishment who rate very favourably on the morals of this great coun- never had occasion to perform any duty about his try—(flear, hear.)—lt remained for him to enter person at Windsor ; and therefore a saving might be upon the other questions which must engage the at- made by the removal of those who had not been lit tention of the House. The subject naturally divided the habit of attending him there. The Queen, as i t self into two branches-Ist, What provision was etsitos of the King, had no power t o remo ve these. nec e s sary for the care of his Majesty's person ? and, The officers he should now propose to be removed 2i}y, Those measures arising from the demise of her I were, the Vice-Chamberlain, the Master of th e R o b es , Majesty, and the changes which must take place in the four Lords of the Bedchamber, and the four the Royal Establishment. As to the first branch, a Grooms of the Bedchamber. The saving occasioned Bill had been brought from the other HoUse, and :by their removal would be 59981. The Lords orthe wadi now ou the table, which directed that those i • Bedchamber never attended at Windsor ; b u t, while. the salaries of these were to be taken away, they still expressed a wish that they might not be precluded from continuing in the service of his Majesty, by holding their appointments merely as honorary ones.' It was necessary that one high officer of responsibi- • lity should be still about the person of the King ; and for that purpose he proposed to retain the Groom of the Stole, and also the six Equerries, who were always at ,Windser. He now wished to observe, that the Queeir's income of 513,000/. was 'a part of `the Civil List, which the Crown might apply to any other part of the Establishment. But it was the feeling of the Prince Regent, that this sum should be left at the discretion of Parliament. He should propose to give to all the servants of the late Queen their salaries during their lives; and there were pre cedents to justify a measure of this kind. Their sa laries did not, on an average, exceed one half of their emoluments ; therefore, acting on former pre cedents, he would strike a proportion between the one and the other, in settling the annuities they were to receive. It would also be necessary to make some provision for those servants who belonged to the King, although there was no precedent for stieh thing. There was no other mode of protecting those persons against the wants to which they must be ex posed, in case of losing their places. Whatever might be the wish of the Pnnce Regent, it would not be possible for him to admit into his service all those who were no longer wanted about the Establishment of his Majesty. Therefore, as by one operation, a considerable number of servants were to be removed from the Crown, he hoped that hereafter the Pailia ment would devise some provision for them, however such a measure might be contrary to precedent, The utmost sum that would be sufficient to satisfy every claim, and which would satisfy his Majesty's 'feelings were he now to recover, would not be greater than eight or 10,000/. If lie omitted any thing in his detail, he hoped the Right Honourable Gentle man opposite would set him right. The whole of the expenses, including the provision for servants, and all subordinate attendants were comprehended, the House would see, is the sum of 50,000/. In order to arrive at a specific arrangement, in this in stance, which would embrace a proper degree of at tention to the care and custody of his Majesty's Per son, as well as a proper attention to the necessity of an economical administration of the public property, much labour and deliberation were required—( Hear, hear).—The result of those deliberations was now laid before the House, and according to the opinions of those who had the honour to submit it to the con sideration of Parliament, it was sanctioned by every. consideration drat should prevail upon the occasion, as well as by every precedent that cduld be traced out upon record—( Hear, hear).—His Lordship stated that he would mos e for a Select Committee, before whom the Estimates of the Establishment were to be laid on the following 'I hursday. The reasons far nominating this Committee by ballot were sufficiently apparent, and required, he trusted, very little ergs rnent to support them. He held in his hand a list of these names, which he should propose to the House for its adoption. His Lordship proceeded to read the names, among which were the following : Mr. Brougham, Mr. Bankes, Hon. W. Limb, Mr. Lllackturne, Mr. S. Wortley, Mr. Long Wellesley. the Solicitor-General, &e. His Lordship concluded, by moving, that the House do resolve itself into a Committee of the %%hole House, to-morrow, to take the Message into consi•teration. Mr. LONG WELLESLEY observed, that he had no objection to reduction in any shape; but in the particular instance in which the House was called upon to interfere, he should say, that a particular and distinct principle of economy should operate. Fully agreeing with the necessity of affording to his Majesty the proper degree of splendour, he would merely ask, Was it reasoiiable that the Duke of York should receive the emolument which was appropria ted to her late Majesty as the castes pep sow, upon the ground that she had many expenses to encounter in the discharge of her duty, peculiar to her station and years ? This was not a question, perhaps, of su much importance. The country would think but little of a small advance above the mere necessities of the occasion, provided there was a distinct state ment of what the expenses were—(Hear, brae.) But the next question he had to put was one of import ance—namely, Was the Duke of York, as curios per sona, still to retain his situation as Commander-in- Chief? ---(Hear, hear, hear.) The time was now arri ved when the country should look with jealousy to any arrangement which enabled an individual so nearly allied to the Crown to hold two situations of such important trust, contrary to all precedent. In adverting to this topic, he must express his perfect conviction that the character of the Duke of York was calculated, as much as that of any other indivi dual in the country, to remove every injurious sur mise and apprehension. That the proposition sub mitted to the House carried with it a disposition to general reduction, he did not deny; but it Ministers held it out as an evidence of great economy on their part, he begged leave totally to dissent from their opinion. The pursuit of an economical course in the administration of our affairs, as an Honourable Gen tleman had stated on a former occasion, required only common sense and honesty. For his part, he felt anxious for reduction; but he could not say that he was in possession of much common sense or much common honesty—(mitch Taughter.) There were some, to be sure, who thought sense and honesty were peculiar to a certain class of persons ; for .his part,- he believed they were mistaken who imagined all sense and honesty were confined to any particular side of that House (Hear, hear, and laughter.) Wil ling as he was to give full credit to the claims of every individual, he only asked for himself the repu tation of a fair and ordinary quantity of both— (Hear, hear, hear.) These were his opinions, and he thought it his duty to express them. He heartily gave his support to every system for reducing the public expenditure, at the sami:ime that he abstained from airy participation in the feelings of party. Lord CASTLEREAGH, in reply to the question'' of his Honourable Friend, observed, that. he was yet to learn what incompatibility there was in the office of Commander-in-Chief with the appointment of eusios persona of the King, which it was proposed to confer upon the Duke of fork. He believed, indeed, that he could scarcely communicate a more melancholy piece of' intelligence to the House and the country, than that the Duke of York was about to remove from the office of Commander-in e Chief el t!!c Army. • (Mar, hepr.) That he, why had pirformed the du from y himself,any intention .tion which he had so long and so creditably (Near, hear, hear.) Mr. L. WELLESLEY disclaimed the slight tention of expressing any di!xespect for his Highness the Duke of York, for whom he feat,t,;'; utmost deference, knowing his Royal Iliebne he did, to present a signal exampleeminent in a great Prince. Mr. TIERNEY rose and said, that whate7erai t i fir t h be the result of th e evening's discass' he wished that that re s ult should go .h to m world bearing upon it the stamp of a free te r, lelt e and deliberate inqui , y. lloacyirable Gentl o. skt who spoke last appeared to him to have adon:ed mistaken view of the question. He wou ld not 'Olio.; him in this view, but he would gate to the Ps, e how he felt upon the occasion. By the death of!.c. Majesty, the whole arrangement was done airari the late Establishment—(hear, hear). A new arrr:-„ ment was now to take place, and the question what was to be the expense of that new arrangenoa —(hear, hear)? The expenses of the EstahliSleneo were not yet appropriated—they were still - the p m , petty of that House—(hear, hear). It was not, ti:ee fore. the proper way of proceeding to begin by we will set about reducing, when we have measured . our resources. He would place economy first, ay the resources second. It was perfectly agreeable% I his wishes to meet the subject with all that gravity and respect which the Noble Lord oppo , ite seemed so anxious to inculcate, and with that feelitz j should be unwilling to look back upon already passed when the Windsor Establishn:ent . brought under consideration at a former period. llr found it necessary, however, to refer to the re ., rangement with regard to the Lord and G. the Bedchamber. The sum swallowed up by L. Officers was no less than £43,000. This sum sa now, in effect, admitted by Ministers' acts to haw been absolutely thrown away ; and he was the more entitled to say this, because when he had objected,is 1812, to the creation of these offices, he had bees assailed with insinuations of the most unworthy L.. 'tore. One said he was thus starting objections to order to gratify an habitual contrariety of dispcsi:os —another, that he was running after a little papi l l a . rity. Language of this nature was thrown in his face upon that occasiaa, as almost upon every other: tut his experience in that House had now sufficice4lF hardened him against such attacks. He spoLl::s opinions in the midst of all opposition, and he rejeitt! that be had lived to see the day when his Maestri Ministers had come forward to proclaim, by t:;:' acts, the justness of those opinions, which they Is censured with so much severity—(hear, hear). Lords of the Bedchamber had very little to & they never spoke to or conversed with his Ilaiest* at all. It was praise-worthy in them to of f er, at' period of their services, a gratuitous performance their functions in fuoite. No doubt this spoke generosity; but when they were invested with ; office originally, why did they not see the superti of their services'—Was not their generosity as • then as now ?—( Llear, hear, and laughter. A proposition had been made, that the same of the Bedchamber would answer for the • of his Majesty and those of the Prince Regent ;11. the fair principle, that where so little was to dr by these Officers at the two residences of the Royal Per. conages, the same individuals could perform it, with. out much inconvenience to any quarter.—(llK,l hear.) But the proposition was rejected ; his Ma jesty, in his afflictions, could not do without those favourite Lords exclusively to himself. What sas the consequence? Those very same Lords were nre turned adrift. They 7.-ele very hardly dealt indeed.—(Henr, hfir.) Ilad they remained with its Itoyal Highness the Prince Regent, they would hat their offices to the good. No one would, study, pretend that this proceeding was at all grateful is his Majesty.—(lfenr, hear.) With regard to tae 0,000 for the Duke of York, he would lay it dm; tiva of all, that whatever expenses the Crotosprr:oLs was put to in the discharge of his duties, they OUT' to be furnished by the public. This was just. it the question was put, " Will you give £lO'OJ the Duke of York ?" he would answer, " Shew ' what for ?" fle was justified in this demand; cause, wh'n it was put formerly in the case of Majesty, the Minister explained, that so mut.. was wanted for travelling expenses, and for all , other necessaries incidental to die a 6 e and static•. that venerable Person. Willing as he was to at:end these peculiar wants, he thought that sum too much her. Now believing that the Royal Duke ar was the properest person in the Kingdom fcr the trust confided to him, he would not oppose grant that was necessary to him for the fuil of his duty. Ile (Mr. Tierney) would trea: itis jesty liberally, and if 500,0001. could in any w , contribute to his comforts or recovery, he in gladly vote for that sum—( Hear, hear). —But . 'duty to the public required that he should not it' Vance a single sixpence of their money, unto [knew what it was for. The Windsor Establish' was so wrapt up in 108,000/. 109,000/. and LiV:ti that he found tt difficult to compreLend chat rs the precise sum stated by the Minister. Takings to be 50000/. he could not see how it was at z'ir cessary to the venerable Sovereign of these czur —( Hear, hear).—His Majesty was incapable of versation ; in fact, the prohibiting; of his Mejii . . attendants embraced every sort of conversation. had no turn for show, and was he to be broatth , fore that llouse as an object requiring an esrea'!, establishment ?—( Hear, hear).—lp what Wei t' enormous sum to go? How was it . to be Ji4l/ 044 ..' But them was a Committee to be appointed to ; o .' Into these details. He knew there seas; but WI not thank the Noble Lord for this act of laves: much as he thanked the late general Election- 3; be thought that the sort of disposition manifested! the Electors in general, had a greater elute in fluencing the Noble Lord's determination, than . new lights upon the subject of frugality. Put ;I was one thing with which the Committee had hod', to do, namely the neat of. the Establishmen!. them measure the details as they •pleaseip hu t ground-work, the leading point, from which all other p.o is were to take Lick proportion, solely to the choice of that liouse,(Hear, her lie knew rothin; of the residents at Winasor. cei:t si' Equemes ? auJ they, it ippeal'J. Ige t o o., n h olft n th e sta. ghtest us R , 711 fer ti,e time r% cnt vi tro Ter t i lt lisc u , s * •ra l to the ter, pe ts ient.t trx ado: e / a aoi :he I'N te ath e au-avi arr i - 71 „ stint; v,. ts , •ange tt p m bli hune-d - the pm. not, !lel,. by Ls) !mas ter / first, aal seeable to at gravity to seemed relit. ? le had merit e.- 4 el led. H e to tew 7a. Groom af p by these s sum is to have the more Injected, ia had been actions is dispr4i:Ta le popid a . in his face Cher; Ex to rejciz...i Nia;est . ; by they :.:1 mar). The to de— is Ilaiesty fer, ai this emar.:e of poke the: with tier supertl rte ty as ripe titer. I me Lotds puToses gent tinna s to dr by loyal Per. n it, wits 7,—(Her, his M:• lout those %Vint was were nce leak !t1 with in , ould Lot Id, surely, ;rateful to rd to dz y it dcar., os peroLs hey ought 'tut. 831 :10.00`1 t") Shea tr.* nand be• ase of het ich mom, r all rho. station atter.d ho !much: , alluded r the vet ?Me • 41 diseliarg a: itii any W 3 He wotii! 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