Star. — London, England, 1802-12-09 00:00:00

b ' - army, and the pelffeffion of Belgium certainly gives new facilities. But then if an army were land ed, all fuccour would be cut off, and the whole muff be either taken or detiroyed. When 5 hear it laid that we know not whit lb defperate a people may do ; in the fir(' place, I do not fee that the French do fuch defperate things. -In all the laft war, when they may be fuppofed as defperate as they ever were, they never did think ferioufly of an invafion. The Expedition to Egypt was not a defperate enterprife—for till the glorious viltory of Lord Nelfon, the French thought they could cope with us in the Mediterranean. Some may fay, let the French come, we are ready to meet them. Now I confefs I neither with the French had come, nor that they would come ; though I have not a doubt that the fpirit and energy of the nation would quickly have decided the fate of the invaders. They would do mifchief, to be fure ; but furely ten millions of men attached to the conftitution, and all are In, would have (hewn that whatever mifchief they might do, they could not fubjeet us. Thofe who chufe to exaggerate the courage, ftrength, force, genius, or defperation of the French, cannot think there is any danger that we (hould finally be fubjetted by any force the French could Real over to this country. Do they really believe, as has been Paid to-day—(no, I be lieve not this day, fufficient for the day is the_ evil thereof), that there is any danger of feeing the tri-coloured flag flying on the Tower of Lon don? Is it potlible that a people In numerous, how ever daffardly (and I think the people of England as brave as any nation in the world) , could be fubilued by 40,000 men—the greaten number that could be conveyed over to this country in the relative Rate of the navies of France and Eng land ? It is ridiculous to think fo, if any thing .conneted with fo ferious a fubje& can be thought ridiculous. Indeed, thofe who paint our fitu• ation and our profpeas in the moil gloomy colours, do not want good humour enough to enliven the canvafs with many ludicrous touches —fo that if they defcribed us as ruined, it is in the temper of the man in the play, who is told, " if you are an undone man, you really are the merrieß undone man in Chriftendom." But an in vafion, though it would neither deftroy our Laws,l our Government, nor our Conftitution, might do ferious traifchief I confefs. It would perhaps de !troy or fufpend 'that credit and that wealth, of which Come Gentlemen (peak fo contemptuoufly, in comparifon of guns and bayonets. But if we are not vulnerable by invafion of the foil of Great Britain, there are vulnerable points in our fituation. Arewe not vulnerable through our finances ? Might not the French think that to harafs this Country by expenfive Eftablifhments ; to divert in ufelefs and cumbrous forces the refources that might be employed in accelerating the extin&ion of the na tional debt, was no very unfuccefsful way of car rying on war with us ? It was lately Paid, that the gresteft part of the population of Ireland was difaffefied ;—but without afcribing great effeas tO the Union—nay, unlefs we fuppofe the Govern ment outrageoufly bad, the people of Ireland mum, in a few years, be much lefs difaffefted than they now are. Thus a few years of peace and mode rate eßabli(hment would enable us to throw off a ccmfiderable part of that debt which in war was called the belt ally of France ; while peace would equally tend to fortify us in Ireland—a point where it is evident we now are vulnerable. Is not France then much more likely to dire& her ef forts again(' our finances, than to invafion, in which, at any time, there is fo little profpeft of fuecefs, and in which, for Tome time, there can be no profpeft of fuccefs at all ? The funds, by the late war, fell from 97 to 47-5 o per Cent. —They again have rifen to 67 ; but fuppofing a new war to take place, what would be the confeqoence of the funds lofing so, or even so per Cent. on the price of 67 ? Inflead, how ever, of .fuch a lots, if peace is preferved, and our refources, increafed by economy, be applied to the extinaion of the public debt,. I atn almoft fore that the funds would again rife to 97. I have already remarked that the ftrength of France and England is different their offenfive and de fenfive lyftents are different ; the credit of this country is a main fpring of. its greatnefs and of its wealth. In France there was no great deal of cre dit before the Revolution, but the utter deftruftion of it by the war, and the events of the war, though it fpread much mifery through France, did not un nerve that country.—lt rather contributed to fwell the armies of the Republic, and to the conqueßs they made. In England the demotion of credit, though it would not be attended with the lots of the independence of the country, for we might Rill peel's mcn and arms, yet it would fpread infinite mifery over the land. Let us therefore ward off from our finances and from our credit every danger; becaufe, though not fatal to our exittence, their overthrow would be fatal to our well being. I confefs that I never could enter fo far into the fen timent, common in ancient times, of being able to love my country, independently of loving my coun trymen,andllhould not be glad to fee us reduced to a Rate of things in which the country alone (hould be preferved, and every means of happinefs and corn fort finally torn from its inhabitants. High efta bliihments would form no fecurity againft the danger which has been held out to us. Wife ceco nomy is the refource from which we (hall draw the means of defending ourfelves again(' every danger. If we have 25,000 lefs, we (hall in return in a fhort time have z 5,000,0001. more to apply to our de fence, and to enable us to repel any aggreftion.— Hitherto I have argued the queftion upon the ground that war was an event which we might ewe' in no very diarist period. But I do not think that we are obliged to anticipate a fpeedy war. Again, at the hazard of mifreprefentation, I muff declare it to be my opinion that it is for the interelt of the French nation, of the French Go vernment, that it is their will to cultivate peace, and that with good management, without any particle of fubmiffion, peace may be preferved.— Though this he my opinion, I would not rifk one iota of the public fafety and interefi on that which mutt be very vague and loofe fpeculacion. I have Chown, however,that in regard to your finances you would, by economical euatglihroents, fortify Tow nadir- and ,calans_ioar telources for any , ----~-- future exigency. The queftiott of the Navy ells - blithment has been mixed with the confideration of the Army ; and I think ftrangely. It feems to be taken as a matter of courfe, Otat you mutt have a large army becaufe yon have so,coo feamen.— Now, it appears to me, that the conclufion fhould be dire my the reverie. It operates two ways.— You need employ fewer foldiers for your defence, becaufe you have augmentc4 your navy ; and the additional expellee by fea, is an argument for ad ditional economy in the cflablithment of land forces. There is a way, too, in which a large army eftablifhment may be raifed ; and it is hitherto unnoticed. Is there no con ftitutional confideration al iling from a large (landing Army. A (landing army without confent of Parliament, is illegal ; with the approbation of Parliament, it may flillbe dangerous. I do not mean to fay that the officers of the army are not friends to ,the confli tution of their country. But confider the fource of influence which the army 'Affords ; there is lcarce a Gentleman in this Houft, but by himfelf, or fome relation, who has not fome to look to in the army. I do not fay, that this influence is pared to carry a particular vote ; but its effects in procuring a ge neral fuppor t to the meafures of adminiliration is obvious. I would not, howevt exclude officers of the army from fitting in Parliament, that would .4 render the ex worfe, becaufe it would too much 1 feparate the charader of foldier and citizen. How is an army to be viewed, as foldiers diftinet, or as citizens forming a part of the country ? In the one cafe they may have no fympathies with the people ; in the other, they may in the exercife of civil privi legesgive a dangerous preponderance in an election, for inttance, to any fide they might efpoufe ; but in fad they are to many purpofes already, and wifely fo, put under a controul different from their fellow-fub je&s. To thefe remarks,however,the naval ellablifh ment is not fubjed, and for that reafon I agree with the Hon. Gentleman, Mr. Wilberforce, that the . naval eftablifliment is on that account lefs liable to objeilion, while it affords us all the fecurity we can have againft the danger, magnified as it has been. There is another view of thelqbjed* which, though not avowed, is perhaps entertained by fome. It may be thought right to have a large ellablifhment, in order to go to war immediately, or very foon; certainly, if we were to go to war in a month or two, it would be idle to reduce our eftablifhments. I can judge of Minifters only from their words and their adions, The Chancellor of the Exchequer, if I rightly underftood, faid a few nights ago, that he taw no danger to the peace of Europe at pref.:nt ; and the Secretary .at War to-day (poke out dd. tindly, candidly and laudably. He faid it was our bufinefs to be armed againft any danger.— He and I differ as to the extent to which we thould be armed; but he lays, that we (hould pro voke no war, that we fhould commit no aggretlion, that we fhould execute the Treaty of Amiens, and that we fhould repel any infult or aggreffion with firmnefs and dignity. This is my creed. Is it pro bable, then, that the aggreffion may come from France? My Right Hon. Friend '(General Mait land) gave a very-ugly realonwhy the Peace (hould be agreeable to the late Secretary at War, becaufe the iPirit of the country was become warlike ; whereas if the war had continued the Table would have been loaded with Petitions againß it. This is rather a fufpicious argument, becaufe it feems to fay, that we have only got rid of the bad war which could not be continued, in order to get an• other more acceptable. My. Hon. Friend himfelf, I am lure, rejoices in the Peace, and does not with to begin the war on a new fcore. But in fad, every thing convinces me, more and more, that the people are decidedly for peace. Gen tlemen, however brave and warlike in their lan guage, always conclude with laying, neverthe lefs I am for peace !" They naturally wills to Rand well with their Conftitiients, and they do not fail to utter a fentiment they know willibe agreeable to them. Much has been faid. of the tone we ought to airtime, but what is the object to which all this tends ? My Honourable Friend, Mr. Sheri dan, with much humour alluded to thofe who with their arms acrofs, and their arms a-kimbo, would fit • Rock Rill, notwithltanding all their complaints againft France. Now whether my Honourable Friend could fit Rock Rill, with his arms acrofs, or his arms a kimbo, I cannot tell : —he does little more than leave the tongue at li berty and recommends you to acquiefce in peace, after a Miller (here Mr. Fox imitated the kluiler,) at proceedings with which we are not to interfere. —lt has been faid, indeed, that a remonftrance has been prefentedrefpeding the attack on Switer land. I know not whether in precife ciroum fiances or manner of that remonftrance it was proper, though I have no reafon to believe that it was not. Remontlrances may be prefented in cafes where no war is deemed expedient, even if the remonftrance be ineffedual. This happened in the cafe of Cornea in the year 1769. As to philippics, litre we mull have philippics to keep up the national fpirit. I am very willing, that they be taken into account as provifion for our fecurity, but I hope that 30,000 men will in lieu of them be deduded from our eftablifhments. But if we are to have the 30,000 into the bargain 1 do not fee what bene fi t they will produce. If danger really did appear—if invafion aaually were ef feded, every feeling would be abforbed in thofe of repelling the invader, from the fovereign motive of felf-defence ; fo thit all the declamation which was to nourifh the fpirit of the nation, would be fruitlefs and unneceffary. Mr. Fox, after many other obfervatiOns, which we are compelled to omit, remarked upon the conduit of Mr. Pitt's friends in calling for him to the Miniftry; after he had not only recommended the prefent Minifter as molt fit to be his fitcceffor, after be had approved the peace. He afked how Mr. Windhim,LordTemple,&c. could exped Mr. Pitt or themfelves to return to Adminiftration, if the Catholic queftion was the real cattle of their; refignation ? He juftified party connexions when the objet was honourable, and treated with jug contempt the cant of not only men but meafures, frequently a mere cloak for apoßacy on the molt interefted views. He dwelt with feverity on the conduet of thole who, merely in purfuit of place, arraigned the conduit of the prefent Minifters, and I &owed the ineonfiftency of Mr: Pitt's friends in j . . . •• • . fupporting them They eta as kr. VAlber force had raid, damn - With faint praife. They did not praife. They did fneet, and teach others to fneer. Mr. SHERIDAN role to explain. He laid, that a Briti(h army kept up in time of peace Was certain ly a great evil'; but aFrench army hovering round our coafts WIIS a flill greater evil. With regard to his (peaking difielpeafully of Bonaparte, he was perfeEtly aware of the irritable temper of that au guff perfimage; but the duty he owed his country was greater than any fear he might have of fpeak ing his fentimettts freely. With regard to dilaf-. feCtion among Iri(hmen, the fate of Switzerland, he believed, would be fufficient to warn them .againft placing any dependance on France. His Hon. Friend had faid, that the feizure of Switzer land was no realon for encreafing our Military Eftablifliment. To that he would anfwer, in the words of Demonlienes, who, when he was urging the Athenians to declare war againft Philip, told them, that that ambitious Monarch was over-run ning and feizing upon every fmall State imme diately within his reach, with the view of ultimately making himfelf mailer of Athens, and:its territory. Mr. WINDHAM faid he thould not have troubled the Houfe at that hour, were it not for the fend ments which fell from fume Gentlemen who had gone before him. The Hon. Gentleman, who fpoke laft, had (hewn an earneft defire to preferve peace with the French Republic, of which he was called the apologia. For his own part, however, he fhould call him the pinegyrift; and he would appeal to every one who heard him, whether tint Hon. Gentleman had not, at the beginning of the French Revolution, delcribed it as the perfection of human wifdom, and made excufes for all the crimes attending it, which he treated only as tl ii igs of no confequeace, and which belonged to the old as well as to the new Government of France. The perfidy of France was found equally among the Kings of that country as at any other time. All thefe things had wrought a wonderful effect on the Hon. Gentleman's mind, and now made him fup port a peace with France. He had, however, held forth a very different language at the time of the Commercial Treaty with France, in the year 1787. He withed to afk the Hon. Gentleman, what was it that he law fo very pacific in the prefent Govern-1 ment of France, which made it fo peculiarly the objeCt of his panegyric ? Was France lefs defirous now to ellablifh a navy than at former periods ?! What was her conduit with regard to the mainte nance of troops? All this was nothing to the Honourable Gentleman, becaufe, whatever might be the temper of France at this time, every thing that was favourable might be expeded from the difpofition of the Firft Coiiful. He, forfooth, was anxious for the prefervation of peace ; he wanted to preferve every commercial relation with this country, and entertained no views of ho(lility againft us ! Let any man,look to the vaR extent of coat in the poffeflion of France, and the im menfe preparations making in die different ports which the occupied, and fay, if there was no dan ger at this time to be apprehended from the views of the Firft Conful—if it was not his intention to destroy the very fource of our ftrength ? It was idle now to difcufs the point, as to what had enabled France to do what the had done ; but the Hon. Gentleman, who made fo light of every meafure purfded by that country, mutt not fuppofe that every thing was done by the leaders, and that there was no co-operation on the part of the peo ple. Was there no fuch thing in France as a mi litary confctiption, nor enthufiafm on the part of the people? Was there no fuch thing as a pre. partition to invade this country ? He did not, at that time, feel any particular with to (peak of the affairs of the Continent : lie was rather difpofed to let the impreflion remain, which he already per ceived on the minds of Gentlemen ; therefore he would abflain from making any obfervations on that topic. He withe.d it 'to be clearly underflood that he did not impure blame. to his Majefly's Mi niftersbecaufe they did not go to war. Had he been in Adminiftration himfelf, at this time, he fhould hesitate very much as to the plan he fhould purfue in the prefent jundure. It was certainly a matter of fome doubt, whether Minitters were right or wrong, in not declaring war. He would not decide upon the queftion ; but leave it to them to judge what was belt to be done, and molt likely to promote the fecurity of the country. Mr. Fox laid that, however he might 'charge high with having changed his opinions in other refpeCts (but which he denied in any one inftance), he ' could not fay that he had ever been an advocate for high ellablithments. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEVER, in anfwer to fome obfervations which had been ufed in the i scourfe of the debate, faid, that nothing was known to his Majesty's Ministers refpeding the relative fituation of this Country, which would at all tend to ftrengthen the argument drawn from what, was known to the Houfe and the Country. He ad mitted, however, that circumftances had arisen fence the figning of the Definitive Treaty, which tended to fupport the opinion in favour of large Eflabli.fliments. It was at the fame time highly i fatisfaetory to him to be enabled to Rate, that from the tiomifhing (late of the Revenue during the two lalt quarters, there was every reafon to believe that the means would at ife from it of fupporting an Eflablifhment equally large with the prefent. Sir JAMES PULTENEY Was of opinion the force now required was not more than neceffary fur the fecurity of the country, and he 'did not know whe ther a greater force might not be requifite. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHE4pLit withed to corral an error into which a Noble Lord had fallen. He had never Rated that there had been a reduc tion of the Britith infantry, further than the inva lids, and thole enlitted for limited fervice. Mr. T. Git E NVILL s intimated his intention of de livering his fentimentson the bringing up of the Re port,the latendfs of the hour precluding him at prefent. The Refolutions'were then put and carried, and the Houfe being refumed, the Report was ordered to be received'to-morrow. The Indemnity Bill paffed through a Committee. Report to-morrow. rse other Orders of the Day were deferred. Adjoutited at Half pait Three this zooming. w - - "Or Eq j 0 A t: D - O N. . TIAIRSDAY , DECEMBER 9. PRICE OF STOCKS TINS DAY Al ONE O'CLOCK: 3 per Ccnt. Conf. for opg. 63; 3 per Cent. Red. 66i—s per Cent. Ann, tooi— Olnniurn tot dif. • This morning arriv e d a Mail from the Lemard Maids, brought by th e D UKE OF KENT Packet, in 33 days- A letter which we received this morning from St. Vincent, dated the t ith of 05tober, contains the following paragraph Tob:ran is now in polrellion of the French as well as Martici;o and St. Lucia, and we hear that the Dutch have arrived to take pofreffion o f their colonies." This morning we received French Journals to the 7th irritant. They contain little new. On the sth Lord WRI - rwoivri-; had an audience of the. FIRST CoNsuc, to prefent his Credentials, Mr. MERRY had an audience at the fame time, to pre. fent his letters of . recall.—Lord WW'H►TWORTH pre. Tented to the Frasr CONSUL upwards of thirty Englahmen. The Deputation of the Empire having adopted the Ccrclufum relpe&ing the Indemnities, the city of Ratifbon was on the 24th ult. taken poifeffion of by the troops of the Eleaor, Arch-Chancellor of the Empire, to whom that city and its de pendences have been allotted by the General Plan. Letters from the Hague, of the 27:h ult. Rate, that •Mr. I..ts-rox, the Eritifh Ambaffador, has entered into a negotiation with the Batavian G o . vernment, in regard to a Treaty of Commerce between the two countries. A letter from Vienna, dated Nov. 20, lays— According.to the laft intelligence from the fron. tiers of Turkey, the earthquake of the 26th of Oaober has occafioned more ravage than announc. ed by the &ft reports—a great many people muff have• perifhed in confequence of this dirafter.— Thefe tavagcs have extended as far as Conitanti nople. Between Siliaria and Roaock, a confider able track of land has been entirely fwallowed up, aqd transformed into a lake. A mountain has had a (=liar fate ; before it funk down, a water fomewhat like milk fpouted up from it. The towns of Krajowa and Widden have fuftained con fidekble damage. The caale of Buchareft, which was built by the* Romans,. prefents nothing but ruins. The Pr ince and the inhabitants quitted the town, and are encamped in the plain. We expea to receive the moll dif.itlrous accounts from Con• ftantinople. This phenomenon is afcribed by na turalifts to the exceffive heat which took place 14 funnier. Yellerday the Kw; went to St. James's Palace, and held g Levee ; which was very fully attended. The Noblemen , and Gentlemen introduced to His MAJESTY were— His Grace the Duke of BzuroßD, on coming to his title; M. SCUIMbIILPENNINCK, En oy and Minifter Plenipoten ; tiary front the Bdtavian Republic, had his first audience to de liver his credentials, to which he was introduced by Lord Hswkclbury, concluded by Sir Stephen Cotterell, Kilter of the Ceremonies; TL; Right lion. the Avrost NEY GENERAL of Ireland, by 1.0 d Pelham; _ _ General STArnstraannu, by the Ruffian Ambaffador; General Sir ETRE COOTE ; Captain BRENTON, by Sir J. Satimarez ; Colonel DALRYMPLE, by General Sir Hugh Dalrymple; The Right Hon. Mr. SMITH ; Count MERESENCORE, an Officer in the Preffian (mice, by the Pruffian Charge des Alf ires Mr. CARTWRIGHT, by ( ieneral Cartwright ; Lord H. PAULST and Capt FI.;:bIING, by Lord Keith; The Hon. Mr. STA Nuors kiffcd Wands, on being appointed rage to his Majefty ; Sir T. WHITE and Sir T. METCALFE killed hands, on being created Baronets; they were introcicced by the Dukc of Port. land ; Mr. B. GRIATHEAD, by hi•- father; Captain COLLINGTON, by Sir James Collington. This morning was married, at the Church of St. Botolph, Aldgate, WILLIAM GP.EAVIS, of Hen. rietta-ftretz, Covent-garden, Efq. to Mils CamE sELL, of the Crefcent, America-lcplare. Yeller(lay a Court of Dire6tors was held at the Eaft India Houle, when the undermentioned Offi cers took leave previous to departing for their re lpeaive dellinations:— Capt. W. DA NC 2, of the Earl Camden; and Capt. A. HA MILTON, of t!:c Bombay Caftic, for Bombay and China. Capt. J. F. Timmins, for St. Helena, Bencoolen, and China The following Officers were fworn into the corn mdnd of their feveral Capt. J. SAN DILAND S, 0! the Walpole, for Coati and Bay. Capt. H. IV sarrox, of the Exe er, toe China. Cap , . W. Bum rass, a taw 11:ip, and Capt. C. Ram . , of the Eat! spencer, tor Bengal. The Tick:t 29.440, as Firft Drawn this day, entitled to Twenty-five Thouf and Pounds, was fold at Mefl'rs. HAZARD, BURNIE, and Co.'s Office, Royal Exchange, in One Half, One Fourth, One Eighth, and Two Sixteer.th Shares. Yeilerd.iy the Recorder made a Report to His Majesty of the following prifoners under fentence of death in Newgate, viz:— I. Straig`q, for breaking into the dwelling houfe of J and. Morris, and fixating th erein eleven cotton gowns andother articles, their property. W. Williams, for flealing a trunk, containing a quantity of wearing apparel and other articles, the proper: y of H. Wyld. C. Hawkins, E. Thompfon, and K. M'Kenzie , for affault big J. Atk:ns,and robbing him of a filver watch and a 51. Banli note, his property. • M . Hal:y and Judith rlitivland, fur Alarming W. Bangs on the Kin's highway, putting Mtn in tear, and ta;sing from his perfon thr e Sl. Haile notes, a-td other articles, his property. S. Fuhtr ai t d Ann Peony, for all'aulting J. Raynes, and roN:. • bing film of a gold watch and other a rticles.• W. VA Icy, for ftealing cath and notes; value 701. the proper , ty of W. Wood. C. O'Connor, for fteall:l,; 27 ewe and to weather theep, the property of the Fed of Eaboroug:i. T. Wyrch, for dealing a leathLr ;socket -book and a 11. note, the property of W. Ager. J. White, for perfuna.ing one James Bannon, a ft aman. in order to rer;i7e the prize money to tee laid J. !'.ninon.And E. Wtielit,foi :tea in,; four pair of cution Itocliing 9 r the property on % Reeve. When J. M'hite, E. l'hompfon. K. h I. K en zie. are r. Ain: re urdere W for execution on edneliay next. The cafe 01 .I•rancifen, the foreigner, was not reportul. I - LONDON: Printed for the Proprieturs. by 10 I - 1 NI) %NI E I t (of Maiden-lane, Covent-Garden) at th -I.tlt AIN r IN.:- Orricr., No. t, Carcy-ftrtxt ; 30,1 plibiilL.e.l b y LE VEI, KEN'l',of Canterbury-place,Lamheths,,it Na. I,Carey-drc•., 1 and at the STAR-OfFICE, Tem plc- liar ;to which ° Ill " ' LI COPAIIILIIi 4WD. kir thc Ez IT Qit ac rcquc;itld to be addrcfroi; • . ' l '77 ~~ ... TO Mopd .i...... by 140. dans SAM Men Med • of tb 11 _~ iioi 1~ rap R . est 'DM ell diet -~ for T. 0•6.. of sai IN - 11 Da ibl fa ill AI - WV • V the D Both mot% N whicl and com Step!