Star. — London, England, 1805-06-26 00:00:00

cor • 1 ea ta - 1 a• of fcreening the Noble Lord from any a. ia are e of pimithnient ? If the Houle were induced to a bandon their own decition, to adopt the mode r aw propoled, another occurrence might take place which would effeetually he a bar to Janice, in the wile of impeachment, but which would not be likely to have filch effeal on proceedings in a Court of Cri !liana plaice. He, therefore, earnestly conjured the Wale not to rebind its own folenin decifion, to adrat a m omilition thus attempted by furprife, of which the Hyde not only had not any timely intl. me ows, but was completely thrown off its guard Our days fince by the Right Hint. and Learned Gen lawn oppolite to him (the Attorney-General) com ics: ( town to the Houfe, and claiming intimations how to proceed—a queßion rather extraordinary, as ( await , from that Learned Gentleman to the Houfe hi; Clients—as it muff be pt efumed his profellional Ltiowledge was fufficient to aired him in Ihaping an information upon the merits of the cafe laid before Lan. No inttance of fuch conduit was to be found on the Journals of Parliament. The propofition, :lord:ore, as it now came forward, was obvioufly a trick upon the Houfe. In the abfence of above half the Members who voted for the meafure, it was now propofei to refcind it; and no doubt thole Members would have attended in their place, had they any idea of fuch a propofition coming forward. If the Houfe was to countenance fuch a procedure, and create filch a precedent, it was impoffible to lay what sef,)lotions might not be refcinded in a finalar way. Mr. LEvr:tsTER laid, be had intimated his in tention of bringing forward fuch a motion feveral dais ago. Mr. BANKES replied, that he did not under ftand any fuels intimation had been given ; neither did the Houfe : and if the Hon. and Learned Member had given loch an intimation, what occafion had he to tem ,' it yesterday ? Lord HENRY PETTY laid, that having been prefent when the meafure of impeachment was for merly ditanifed, and voted in the minority for it, he fell it his duty now to Rate his grounds for his vote this night. If could affent for one moment that the queilion now before the Houk was, whether a criminal prosecution or impeachment fhould be adopted, he Ihould certainly vote for impeachment. But conceiving, on the cootravy, the quettion to be, whether the lioufe would be induced, upon the Ihort notice, which was entered on the Journals but yet . - terday, to retain(' a decision, formed, after a long feries of difeuflions, in one of she fullest affemblies of that Houle that ever met, upon a proposition to which the attention of the Houfe had been fo par icu• larly drawn, be fhould vote :spina fuch a 'realms.. The Hon. Member who introduced the motion had, neverthelefa faia, that the decition was hasty, and not mimed after a full dileutlion, and a great num ber of thole who voted for it did not understand the quellion. He would, however, fay, that young and unexperienced as he was in Parliament, he under flood the nuellion ; tbat to the belt of his bumble abilities he had fully difculfed it ; and on all tides of the Houle it had been moll amply debated ; he therefore could not admit the allertion, that the 1 - loufe had voted in Ignorance or milunderliand big. He would appeal to the recollettion of the Houle, whether an Hon. Member, not now in his glace, on that He of the Houle (Mr. Sheridan), bad not, on the night when the queltion was dia cuffed, emphatically called upon the Right Hon Gen tleman oppolite to him ( alt. Pitt) to paufe and deli. berate beftne he voted on that qtreltion, as his vote would have the rife& of leading many into a diffi culty out of which they would not be eafily extri cated. That Right Hon. Gentleman had not then. (poke ; he did not afterwards fpeak, but he could not plead that his attention, and that of thofe around him, had noi. been called emphatically to the fubjea. There was a lefolution propofed to proceed by im yeachment, and another to proceed by criminal profe cution ; thole who wifbed the one, would vote againft the other, ani this was really the nueflion. 'Thus at the end of a tot tnight, at the latter end of a &Rion, when half the members who voted upon the former night had left town, the Houfe is called on, at twenty- Jour hours notice, to refcind a decition fo folemnly adopted ; he did not exiled to hear from Honourable and Learned Gentlemen hitch condemnation of the jurildiation ot the Court of King's Bench. He did not expert to hear Inch an argument as a flaw in the proceedings upon a former trial direaled by the Emile, urged to induce the Houfe now to rcfcind its decifion : by this argument, all profecution by an Attorney-General mull be bad ; and a flaw mutt be found in the proceedings on all trials fo direfled. For his own part, be fhould give tab vote now for the criminal proceeding, not as a mode in preference, but as the retirlt of a decifion fo folemnly, fo fully, and fo deliberately adopted. Sir WILLIAM BURROUGHS fupported the motion principally on the fame grounds as Mr. Ley ceder and the Solicitor General. Mr. CHARLES WYNNE was decidedly for prncee !Mg by impeachment, as the proper and con ltiturional mode ; but thought the notice of the pre fent motion extremely abrupt, and that it ought to shave been at leafs for a week. He did not think that a poaecutien, to be conducted by his Majesty's At torney General, who 11.1,1 delivered his opinion on the folaia% n as the mode molt proper for the ends of jullice. He though: the prefent debate fhould be adjourned till Monday next, and moved accor din g ly , Iva his motion was not feconded. Mr. AVINDHAM fpoke at Jaime length in favour . l ar the refhtution of the Houfe fur the criminal pro. I Itcution of Lord - He reviewed the argu. tnents on both fides, and empreffeti his opinion in fa vour of the impeachment, on the grounds which he had originally limed as a Matter of preference, until fire Houfe had decided by its vote in favour of the other mode of criminal proceeding. No perfon would deny politively the law, or the propriety of the criminal proceeding againft the Noble Lora in the courts of law. The precedents for the prolaeu. lion of Peers were not, in a general view of the Inh jeat, very numerous in our hitiory ; and he could fee no argument that could be made out against the preterit mole fuceetsfully grounded on the objealion of there being but a tingle cafe in precedent. He did not fee that it was atnisluttly necelfary to have a pea: many precedents ; nor was there any Itrong oajenion to the mode agreed upon, unlefs it were 'freinsie I on a hslpicion of mala fidu in the party s'llich was to carry on the .profecution. If it were laid, that in an impeachment there was lets of tech • • nical law regnifite for carrying forward the ends of joftice, it might, on the qth er hand, be objefled, that there was, and would always he, no common (hare of technical law employed in the defence : In that a fort of balance might bt (truck in that way. With refpett to other matters fuch as the competency of the Tribunal, he rather inclined to think, that the Learned Gentleman (Mr. Bond) pufhed hi, appro bation rather too far. He did not think that i• was eligible for almoll all cafes, quite to the fame extent as the Learned Gentletnan—Rill, it might be, fur much of what was connected with the prefent nets, fuflicient. In fail, the defcription of the of fence of which Lord Melville was fuppofed guilty, W:tS one which might rather be defined to be the crime of a Statelnran, than a (tate crime. He Ibould p-efer the tribunal of the Houfe of Peers to a common Jury, bur yet there might be nothing but what a Jury might underhand and decide upon. Yet he could not but think, that a tribunal which was not compelled to decide upon the whole bufinefs at one fitting would be, upon the confederation of the whole of the cit.- cumaances, the belt to try the cafe of the Noble Lord. In this view of the cafe his opinion was de cidedly for the Houfe of Lords. There was more dignity in that mode for all parties—and betides, though he meant no diftefpea to the Attorney Ge neral, yet, individually confidered, he could not think him the molt proper perfon to conduit fuch a tranfic- Win. He was very ready to adroit all that had been Laid in praife of that Learned Gentleman ; bur when it was laid ofhim that notwithftandinghis own opii. ion he would conduit thebulinefsprecifely in the mode and for the objects direited by the Houle, and that he would da it as well as if Isis opinion leaned the other way ; he could not help thinking that it was rather equivocal praife. That was a fort of praile in which he could fcarcely concur. If it were true that the force of profeflional habits was Inch, as that whether it was jutlice or injuflice, a particular caufe would be equally well managed and futlained ; he thought it was an unfortunate defect in the profeflion, and he could not but feel fume objections to it. Parties were allowed to challenge Jurors who had delivered opi nions of loch a defcription as to proclaim their fend merits, and almoft to anticipate their decifions upon queltions ultimately to be brought before them ; and really he thought it would be, at lean, equally jug ' 1 to challenge and difqualify a profecutor who had fhewn a difpnfition adverfe to the profecution he was officially to conduit. The qneltion teemed to be re duced to this point : Is the Houle now at liberty to make the change in their proceedings which was pro. pored by the motion of to-night ? It had been con tended, that in doing In, there would be no contra vention of the judgment of the Houfe. An Hon. Gentleman had contended. that the change now pro poled was in conformity with the fettle of a majority of the Houfe. He did not think it neceflary to de• ny this; but he would afk how the Hon. Gentleman knew it ? Was it from the proceedings of the Houfe ? What folid parliamentary ground had the Hanour able Gentleman for Paying fo ? It might be col 'card or inferred from matter thrown out in de bate, from converfation, or from koowledge of par ties ; bnr certainly not from the proceedings of the Houle of Commons. Ali queitions could not be de cided by the mere deciflosi of Yes and No. Sometimes. there were matters of choice fubmitted between al ternatives. Some have laid, 6 , You &fluid have hated, in the firft inflance, the general queftion— Shall there be a criminal punilbment or not ? In fuch a cafe, many would neither fay yes or no.— They mull anfwer hypothetically ; they mull know firlt what the fpecies it criminal punifhment is to he before they voted. Had the quellion been put on impeachment limply, fotne would have faid Yes, and others No; becaufe they might have thought fume other mode preferable for punifhment. As fo much had been laid about the fentiments of diffe rent parties in the Hortfe, he thought he might di vide them into four clalfes ; the fill would be thofe who would fay, as they had already laid, " No far ther ponithment whatever ;" the kennel might vote fur impeachment limply ; the third would fay, cri minal profecution by the Attorney General ; and the fourth would be for criminal proceedings at all events, and take the profecution in failure of the im peachment—they would fay any thing is better than nothing. Ile &dd, therefore, protelt agaiaa all that fort of refinement of reatiming, founded upon the fuppofed or alledged difference of opinion with refired to the p7ecife defcription of punithment.— He would not allow Gentlemen on the oppofite fide to play faft and look with the Houfe. The courfe was plain. The Houfe had faid, there (hall be a cri minal proceeding, and that by the Attorney General. He had originally voted for the impeachment, and for two reafons: firft, that there might be fome cri ininal proceeding ; and fecondly, becaufe he thought •iropca , thment the belt mode. But after fo much • deliberation, and a iemarkably full attendance, the Houfe had come to a decia n, directing the proceed ings in a particular mode ; and a refinement was now attempted, founded upon a fort of comparifon of the votes different Gentlemen. All that could be inf e rred from the voter, for the purpofes of the Hon. Gentleman, was, that the mode adopted was confidered to be better than no profectitinn at all.— A I:A - might had now paired (ince the decifrou WAS taken, and the Houfe was now called upon, at a lbort notice, with the attendance of lirch Members as were upon the fpot, to reverfe its proceedings.— From the locale and vague idea of reviliun thrown out, it could not be inferred that the Learned Gen. tleman's own mind was made up on the lubjea. No proper and timely notice had been given of the intention to reverfe the proceedings. Gentlemen had now left town in great r,umbers, and it was only neceffary to let the Seflion run down a little longer, and upon this principle of change, the whole pro ceedings might be reverfed that had been already taken, when there were ju(t Members enough to make up a Houfe. The force of Inch a precedent would be an extreme fcandal to the country. Gentlemen mutt think of the . character of that Houle. His complaint againit Lord Melville was not merely that he had mifapplied public money, but that he had put all public men, and that Hook too, into fufpicion, and that public fulpicion ought to be fatisfied. He had put himfelf upon his trial, and he had alfo put the character of the Houle upon its trial. They mnit clear their charaaer ; they mutt do jultice to them. laves, without doing any injuttice to Lord Melville, whofe isprudent and Tameable conduit, to ufe no harfacr terms, bad prodamil filch coatiquencm The RefTat'ione- of the nee he eonadete . d it to be Ise. eeff.try for the Houfe to adhere to. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER tinted that the principal ground of oppefition to the motion before the Houfe appeared to reft on trte tice which, according to their affertion, was not fairly given, and to which, therefore, they conceived that Itrong circumfiances of furpicion attached. But he begged the Houfe would refer to dates upon this part of the queilion. The motion for the profecution of L.lrd Melville paffed on the 13th infiarit ; on the Thurfday following the Hotife did not fit, en the Friday it was occnpied with a difeuflian which con- cernea him perfonaliy. In the nest week only three fitting days had elapfed when his Learned Friend (the Attorney General) came forward and Rated, that from the peculiar difficulties of the cafe it was neceffary that the Houfe &mid furnifh him with fume fpecific indruetions. Upon that application a difcuilionarnfe, and he fubmi►ted to the recolleeiqn of the Houle, whether, in the courfe of that dif cation, he did not diflinCtly Rate that before the queltion referred to by the Attorney General Ihould be gone into, the Houle ought to confider the pro priety of reviling the vote refpeding the criminal pro fecution, and of fttbaituting an order for impeach ment. This he perfeelly remembered, that when on that nccafion his Right Honourable Friend (Mr. Bond) gave notice of his intention to move that the cafe relative to Jellicoe Ihould not be introduced into the criminal profecution, that notice was, in the fira ia(lance, for the following day; but, at his &lire, his Right Hon. Friend deferred until this day, for the purpofe, as exprefsly dated, of taking this opportu nity to re-confider the whole proceeding. And the converfation went into fuch particularity that it was argued that, if the Houle lhould concur in preferring the Impeachment, there could he no neceflity to deli- berate upon the expediency of modifying the vote of Criminal Profecution, which would, in the event of Inch preference, be altogether abandoned. After an intimation fo clear and decided, if Gentlemen were not aware of the proceeding before the Houle, he. fub mitted that it was no fault of his, for they had re ceived a notice as full and as timely as circumttances would permit, or words could convey. How then, he would elk, did the cafe Rand ? Oo this, the flitch , day after the converfation he alluded to, the motion was brought forward. And as to the time, he begged to fuggelt to the confideration of Gentlemen, that this notice was not given when bufinefs was over— ! when the Members were out of town, and nothing of importance was expected. On the contrary, a dif cation was announced which was expetied to take place in a few days, and which concerned nothing let's than a revision of the whole ftate of our military defence. This was a queftion, upon which a good deal had been already faid by the Gentlemen on the other fide—much expeaation had been excited, and thofe Gentlemen had pronounced it a matter of fuch moment, that the Houfe ought to conti nue fitting throughout the fummer fully to confider it. With Inch a ciliation then in their contemplation, how could it be toppled that the Gentlemen on the other fide would be abfent from town, or could any realimable man timpofe. that they were not at this particular time able to give as full an attendance as they thought proper. Sure he was, that taking all the circuinttances into view ; combining the infor mation he gave fume time fince, with the diainCt no- tice of yellerday, the Houfe would feel that there was no ground to complain of furprife. A notice it felf was, the Houfe mutt be aware, but a mere point of form, and, he walled it particularly to be coo- Bdered, that in this inftance the motion was to re fcind a vote of'the intention to propofe which no pre. viOusnotice.whatever had been given (a cry of hear ! bear!) Far from any fpecific notice having been men tioned, as was utual in fuch cafes, the motion for a criminal profecution was never heard of until the very day on which the propolition for an impeach. ment was fubmitted to the Houfe. Upon that day, without the flighteft intimation to any individual— without even a notice from courtefy to the party ac• cured, or any of his friends, the Right Hon. Gen tleman brought forward his motion fro.• criminal pro fecution. The right of Gentlemen fo to proceed he did not mean to difpute • but he did feel himfelf war ranted in hating, that after having fo proceeded they were not entitled to complain of the courfe adopted with refpea to the motion before the Houfe, as at all unfair or unparliamentary (very of hear ! hear! from the Oppofaion Benches.) With regard to the opinions infinuated, that if the vote under diffitillion were ref einded, it would excite injurious fufpicions abroad os to the views of the Hoare, he did not think it necef fary to dwell upon fuch an infinuation. But as to the affertion, that it would be unbecoming in Parlia ment to refcind any refolution within the fefton in which it had palled, he would appeal to the candour and good fenfe of the Houfe, whether in any care fuch as the prefent, it would Inffer itfelf to be re trained by a point of form, or even precept olculloos, from repealing any vote calculated to lead to incurs. ble difficulties. The faCt, however. was, that in this ' very felon, and in a cafe peculiarly pertinent to this motion, a precedent direelly in point had been ellah lifhed. For the vote under conlideration was itfelf lubtlituted for a civil aCtion, which had been previ• oufly refolved upon, as preferable to a Criminal Pro. fecution. He did not mean to fay that there, was any thing criminal in fuch a fuhflinition ; he nwtioned it I only to (hew, that the vote itfelf, which, it was pro. pofed to refcind, furniffied an argument againa that furprife o hid) Gentlemen profetfed to feel, in conk gutnee, as they alletird, of the angularity of the proposition before tlie Houle. Having animadverted with his dilal force on the objeftions drawn from the notice and the precedent, the Right Hcin. Gentleman proceeded to confider the other grounds of oppofiton to the motion. Some Gentlemen had, heobferved, argued as if this motion were meant as a fort of firatagem to defeat the Re. folutions of the Houfe, and to prevent the profecu tion tsii Lord Melville. Nothing could, in his opinion, be more unfounded than fuch a fuppofition. The motion was not to do away thelorder for criminal pro fecution. and to leave the ref to chance ; no : but to rubflitine for that order a courfe of profecution cal culated much better to anfwer the ends of fubtiantial inslice—more confiitutional, and more fuitabte to the. dignity of Parliament. So it was twiformly hated by thofe Gentlemen who flood forward and promi. sent from the commencement of thofe proceed iigs ; and fo no doubt thofe Gentlemen thought Ilia. Lon whit ground then could they object to a mown which wag meant to he 114)11 it uteri for the vote of whivh they difapprored ; a cou,fe of proceedi:• . ; for which they Ilrentwolly -r , :rired. If their opiniort the fame ; ii r. e mode of profeetrtion which his Hon. Frizmd's m lion recomm-nded was not lets cffergual for the en of innice, he hoped that the on. Gen tlemen would nr:t impute improper m .tiv.s to thole who brought forward a motion which Afforded them an opportunity of giving cilia to their own virginal views. But the Hon. Gentlemen fermed 'hank, that hecaufe this m tion originated with tho': w'.. oppof ed any criminal prof:mixt from the Ingol , ,ing, they ought to oppore it. This was really ilr ino.e ! i d•f reafoning, btu he illotthi not dwAl tip. , " it. • . h him and others who thoo-411t •Ivir Oleoe were not .41. ficient grounds for any, climinal profecution; Jon therefore refitted it by their votes, the quelli. , n, now that the Houle had decided otherwife, was to mike an option as to the bell mode of profecution. Ifts., was a queftion which they were not called upon to confi der until the 1-I.)ufe had formed the determination alluded to. Although they oppofed the profecution altogether, it did not follow that they could be in different to the tribunal before which the accufed fhould be tried. On the contrary, they would natu. rally feek that tribunal which lhould be leaft rem.. nant to his feelings, and would of cootie prefer the impeachment; and he was certain thete was no Gen. demon on the other fide of the Houfe who would not rather recommend that mode of profecutionowhien thould be leaft dilagreeable to the feelings of the ac cufed, if fuch recommendation thould nut he incon fiflent with the purpofes of jullice. The vote under difctiflion mull be peculiarly dilagreeable in the ac. cufed, he had no doubt that it was, although it was originally propofed with a profeffed view to obtain for him the lets fevere mode of profecution. As to the way in which the opinion of the majority of the Houfe inclined, the Right Hon. Gentleman difclaimed any intention of following the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Windham) who, under the cloak of deprecating refinement, entered into a good deal of that fpecies of dirquifition, the relish of which was completely delufive. That Right Hon. Gentle man had alked how the opinion of the Houfe could be colleted, but by its vote ? He would tell the Right Hon. Gentleman, without meddling with his nice diffietions, that opinion was to be learned by applying to the plain common lento of the fethjeet..... If any candid man would take the trcuble of c..nfi. deting the particular circumftances of the debate on this quettion on a former evening, he had not the !call doubt that fuch a man would concur with him in thinking, that if the Houle were polled, a very de cided majority indeed would be found in favour of an impeachment. Why then thould the fi-itife hefitate to adopt it in the prefent itittance ? A N ble Lord, on the oppofite bench (Lord H. Petty), who always fpoke in luch a manner as entitled him to peculiar at tention, had, in the c"urfe of the debate, hated that an impeachment was the more ciiniii:utiunal mode of proceeding in this cafe. Could the Howe, then, al low that which was confliturional to be oppofed by a confideration of expediency? Could they all , w a !rerf, queltion of firm to ItanO in the way of an ril;el of fuch importance ? l'ne Nable Lord, and thole who a6ted with him, having before relied theii preforence of an impeachment upon grounds fo broad ood con flitutional, he could not conceive them now ready to tetrad upon fuch confiderati MS a. the Houle had herd. The Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Windham) 'had profelfed to think that a jury was very competent I toinveitigate and decide on the cafe of Lord Melville, becaufe in that Right 11 , 11. Gentleman's opinion, the Noble Lord had not been guilty of a " flak crime." I The oftenfible charge againd L.lrd Melville no doubt was a breach of law, by tout: icing at the mifapplica tion of the public money, and pr..fi;ing by fetch mif application ; but was not the Noble Lord a lfo charged with applying the public money to purpofes which he refuted to difclole ? and was not he would ap peal to the Right Honourable Gentleman, within the delcription of a (late crime ? Was it not either with rcfpea to the magnitude of the offense, or the de gree of punithment applicable, a fitter [tablet for impeachment, than fur the ct :arrderaiion of a jury ? —Some Gentlemen had argued, the Right Honour able Gentleman obferved, en at the criminal profecu lion would be a great favi.tig of time, hut if they would lock to the only pi ec edent on the journals of a fimilar profecution, they would find that two years and a half elapfed ofte the in der of the H ode, be , fore Lord Halifax *rots brought to trial. Sa much and as to the arguments again& i o n % t p o ca e ct p in e e d n it .'. io drawn from the trial of Mr. Hattings, he lbould, only fay that the prefent cafe was materially different from that, which was let eXtenrlVC in its corn. pars, and which required fuch voluminous evidence, both written and parole, from the other fide of the globe. If, however, the delay in that cafe were to i•: admitted as an ohjeCion againit impeachment, it I might be pufhed to the extent of overturnits„; the prin. ciple of impeachments altogether, wh;cli was a cit.- ! curnitance that he had 1:0 doubt the Gentlemen on the other fide would be among the inoq forward to deprecate. One Honourable Gen;kman ( Mr. &tribes) had, Ire perceived. argued as it all State offences I mi g ht lent to a fury, but in that opinion h e f anc ied the Honourable Gentleman would stand alone.— ' There were many offences to complicated in their circumllances, and to peculiar in their is am:. as to be quite told: for inch a tribunal. Of loch a Om ; rafter is the charge rtainii the accufed 'n this in dance. It mutt iieceifoily require an iuvclligaticn 1 of fuels length to decide upon thi, charge, as the oi -1 dinary fitting of a jury mull he incompetent A number of the papers laid before that Houle fhould be examined, with mush parole evidence relarin t to them, before a decifion could be come to on the cafe of Lord Melville, or the ends of justice mutt I.e t.'e. Gated. Confidering a Jury incompetent to afford .o the fobjet the ample iiiveitigation it required, he was induced to oppofe criminal prale,nition.— After recapiiul..ting his fzveral arguments, the Right Honourable Gentleman concluded with Wei sing. that he th"ulf fupport the impeachment, as the mode of profecution belt calculated to proincte the purpc fes of justice, as more confident with tie char.' rt f Parliament, as lefs repugnant t • the feelings of the accufed, and as more fineable even to tire .. tore of the crime. WHITBREADMr. tore and fpoke at lame length' and with extraordinary ability in reply. He let out by alluding to a circumnance it. the lite of one of the greatcfi orators of antiquity (Cicero) who was ern ploycd to &find a Roman Citizen, gm a quettion ./..