Star. — London, England, 1825-03-25 00:00:00

- ••••: , ,*" • Sir G. COCKBURN said, that to adopt the method of paying seamen abroad, as in the Army, was objec-, tionable. Under the present arrangements, sailorsapl' prnitriated a putt of their wages to the support of their foilibes, at !mule He did not mean to bay anything against the character of our nibs, but it was well known they did not think much for themselves, and therefore required somebody to think a little for them. 'He wished them to have pocket money when they entered foreign ports, and that would be provided by the•BilL But he thought no one could desire to see the effects of sending a crew on shore, in a foreign country, with six months' pay in their pockets. By the present regulations, every comfort of the seaman was provided for, and the man were as happy as any class in existence. In proof of this, the gallant Member stated, that the practice now was, not to punish men when they behaved ill, but to dismiss them from the service —(Hear). Lame was,then given to bring in the Bill. CRIMINAL LAW. Mr. Secretary PEEL said, that he was about to ap ply tor leave to bring in two B and as they both went to effecrimpoitant changes in the Criminal Law of the Country, he would save the time of the House by stating the ohj•cts of both while on his legs. The first' Bill •as to provide a punishment for the writ ng of threatening letters, charging prisons wit') an at tempt to commit 'certain crimes. At present the law only provide d for cosec where a charge of committing the crime was threatened, and that was punishabte with transportation. He thought it was impossible net to 'bee that the moral guilt in the two cases was equal, and that it ought ti be equally punished. It had however happened, in the course of the last summer, that a person had been acq tilted because be only threatened to charge the at.empt. To remedy this detect in the iaw was the object of the first Bill. The second Bill comprised clime objects—:the first of which was to tacilita e the granting of pardons to pet sons buf feting under the sentence of the law. At present a per son cold not be acs toed to the possession of his rights unless his pardon passed under the Great S al, the ex pense of which shut many prisons out from the full benefit of :he pardon they had received. One conse quence of this was, that it such a person were sum moned before a Court of Justice, he was not comps tesit to give evidence. It wis not intended to inte:tere with the privilege of the Crown. The object was to provide that by virtue of a pardon from the Crown, bearing the sign manual, and countersigned by the Secrel4l y o Sate, an individual should be restored to his credits and capacities in the same manner as though his pardon had passed the Great Seal. In the present state of the law, supposing an individual sentenced to imprt onment for six months for a slight offence which did no materially affect his character, and who had been pardoned, not under tie Great Seal, to be the only witness in the case if some great offender, he would not be capaVe of giving evidence until all those forms h d been gune throne, which would probably allow the offender to escape and defeat the ends of just ce. The nest object of the Bill was to extend the same alt. ration of the law to pardoned convicts in New South Wales, who, (tem being situated some thou ands of miles from the spar, vote unable to go through the films at present requited by law. The Bill would also provide in tl.e casts of ptrsons who had suffered a commutaLion of punishment, had fulfilled the con ditions imposed by such commutation, they should be restored to all tile privileges of free citizens.— Its next of ject would be to remove that part of the law by which 4 singular omission was made in favour of the Clergy, Sy sthich they were exempted from punish n.ent for crimes, which were punishable if committed by any other class. He should first state that by the old law, prisoners were set flee after tieing branded on the ball of tie left thumb. But that part not being sufficiently conspicuous, the branding was ordered to be made on the left cheek, as near to the nose as pos. sible. As society advanced, this punishment was abo• lished, and the Court was allowed to substitute fine, imprisoiment, or whipping, in its stead. But in the change, it happened that this substitution did not re eerie the power of carrying with it the same effect of branding on the thumb, namely, that of restoring the civil rights of the prisoner. He, therefore, proposed to supply that power. The third object was to remove that anomalous state of, our laws to which be had be fore alluded, namely, the exemption of the Clergy from punishment for the commission of clergyable cffencee. If a Clergyman committed felony he was hange i ; and if be committed a misdemeanour or a petty Weeny, he was punished as others were. But he mig , it commit the offences which he had mentioned over and over again, with impunity. Now, though he was ready to support the Clergy in all their jest rights, be was not prepared to give them this indemnity. The Right Hem Gentleman then brought up the first Bill. Mr. BRIGHT inquired whether the alteration rela tive to tie Royal paidon was to be retrospective? Mr. Sr cretary PEEL replied in the affirmative. Mr. LOCKHART said, that the thanks of the cows. try were due to the Right Hon. Gentleman for the attention which he gave to these subjects. He entirely concurred in the pr posed alteration of the law respect ing pardons. Upon the other Igll the Hon. Member put souse atuestioo to the Right Hon. Secretary relative to DeneAt of Clergy. Mr. Secretary PEEL said, that be should be glad to see the benefit of Clergy removed altogether, and the kw put upon one general footing. Mr. S. RICE expressed his hope that the Criminal Lbw of Ireland would undergo simil tr ameliorati There were absurdities upon the Statute Book which were a dis grace to it, and the sooner they were removed the better. Mr. JONES spi , ke against the distinctions and incon veniences created in the law by the Benefit of Clergy. -* Mr. BERNAL called the atention of the Right Hon. S cret .ry to the practice of the Police Offices in walking accused persons linked together through the streets of the metro polis. He was convinced that he had only to call the attention of the Right Hon. Gentleman to the matter, to have it remedied. Mi. S-cretary PEEL assured the Honourable Mem ber the subject had not escaped his attention ; but, if conveyances were provided, one would be necessary for each Police Office. As to the indecency of conducting persons iii custody through the open streets, lie would only observe, that he was so anxious to prevent it, that he told the Magistrates lie should sanction any expense they incurred by sending priviners in the ordinary vehicles to be obtained in aay rare of London. The Right lionourabk Secretary then brought in his several Bills, which were read a Seat time, and ordered to be read a second time on Monday most. AFFAIRS OF INDIA. Mr. HUME, in rising to bring his present motion be fore the House observed, that although India was a colony of great importance, it was seldom that subjects concerning it were brought before that House. This might perhaps he accounted for in consequence of the vast distance of our Esstern poasessens from England, Red a general feeling that we were but imperfectlY ceialified to legislate fir a p.rople to remote, and •ittt compasaiively so little acquainted. It • existing laws only such measures as • bows could be executed in India ; but for his part, he was free to confess, under all the', circumstances of the case, that if proper persons were chosen to administer the Alin of that possession. the len interference on the part of the authorities, the bet ter that country would be governed. If those ap pointed were not competent, it was indeed impossible that,the evil could be effectually remedied in this coon try, although it undoubtedly was the duty of this House to inquire into matters of such deep importance to the Empire. He should now call attention particu larly to the present war in India, which, from whatever motive undertaken, would not, he feared, reflect much credit on the Government. He had waited for some time, in hope that he should be able to learn satieacto- Illy the details of that enterprise. Never, however.was so meagre a mass of information made public on so important a subject as had been laid on the table of this House, and although he waited in expectation of having the deficiency supplied through other channels, nothing of the kind had yet taken place. Improperly as the war may have been commenced, it was necessary that it should be carried on to a speedy and successful issue. India had been favoured with two or three able Go yet nors-General, who had consolidated its power and connection with England, and it was only necessary to continue it in the state in which it was left by the Marquis of Hastings, to produce the most beneficial re stilts to the Empire. In order to s. ew the importance of pursuing the policy of that Noble Marquis, he might be permitted to state, that in our Eastern Empire th re were 150,000 native troops, and not more than 20,000 European troops to keep in check a pop ul salon of (he ' , regretted to acknowledge it) no-one knew how many millions, but which if he estimated at eighty or nitiety millions, be certainly was within bounds. It required no common ability to govern so va t a territory, so pe. culiarly circumstanced, with ruch a ter e; and pet, two or three . yeats ago, profound peace and contentment reigneolll, ughout the %lime of our East. rn Dome : :lions . . 'That under Lotst Amherst's administration the aspeceot affairs had altered—he did not blame that Nobleman, but those who bent hors to India. Amiable as Lord Amherst was alio.. o be in privat ' tnere was not an individual connected with the East. Indies, who did not say, that althour his L • sfs rp might be qualified to rule that legion during a period of tranquillity, he was totally unfit for the task &tutor% hostilities. It so happened, however. that laud Am herst had scarcely commenced his y, sib n the country was plunged into a war, o kb. let it end as it might, could not be terminated with any aavantage to the East India Company. He mew came to the mode in which that war was conducted. It sea-. •• ell known that the rainy season in India, eehich taste) f or or five months, always lett the troops unfit tot se. vice. He himself had been one of a detachment of 10,000 men, out of whom more than 1,500 were not fit for duty `rem this cause ; and it was in consequence, an inva riable rule with all Governors-General , e•Ot to expose the troops to the ill effects of the climate. Lord Am herst, however, chose that very period to t ansport the Army to Rangoon, and he (Mr. Hume) could most truly affirm, that there wa• not a British Officer to whom he had spoken on the subject, that did not re ' probate the proceeding. The eff ins of troops so situated, could not be successful—disease attacked them followed by a great mortality. As the Press was silenced in India, he could only refer to private letters for the facts; but they s aced that more than 1,80.) out of 8,000 men were not effective—chat "the army, in short, was in a crippled state, and t at an alarm was spread throughout India calculated to inflict the greatest mischief. The consequence was, that the troops finding themselves on a footing they had never before expel fenced, disobeyed their orders. With respect to the mutiny at Barrackpore, he hoped the measures to quash it would be proved to have been unnecessary. The punishment of the mutineers in India was deemed by many more severe than was neces sary; but would it be believed that, four days after Lord Amherst dismissed with infamy all the Officers who had held true to their allegiance, and then ap pointed a Court of Inquiry to examine whether they were guilty ? The accounts from all parts of India con curred in one fact. that all confidence in Lord Amherst's Government was lost in India. All publication was prohibited, and we could only judge by the accounts we received, which he believed were correct. The pri vate letters asserted that, three weeks previous to the Mutiny, the complaints of the Sepoys were made known to the Government. Their allowances had been pared down till they retained only enough for their mere sup port. On all former occasions of a similar nature, the Sepoys had been provided with cattle to carry their baggage, for in such a climate the native troops were unable to sustain the burthens of the European soldiers —but in this instance no bullocks were provided—a sum of money was given in lieu, although money could not supply the wants complained of. When he (Mr. Hume) was in the Bengal Army, for every vacancy there were fifty candidates, and the idea of desertion entered the head of no person. There was also another piece of folly practiced, of the most injurious tendency. It was well known that any disgrace attached to the high caste of Brahmins, struck dismay into the natives. The Bengal Army, however, for the most part, consisted of Brahmins, men of the finest and noblest feelings, and yet these were the very persons condemned to Infamy.... Orders had been sent out to the Noble Marquis to re organise the Bengal Army, but with an attention to the wants of the soldier as well as the interests of the Company, which he had always shown, those orders were not carried into effect. A Commission, however, was appointed of Civil and Military Officers to inquire and report into the changes advised, and their opinions were transmitted to England, afterwards embodied in a dispatch. That dispatch, and the answer, he now wished to have laid on the table. It was indeed impos sible that any Governor-General could carry into effect every order sent out to him, and in attempting to do so, Lord Amherst had lost the confidence of the country. The Honourable Member concluded by moving, • That them be laid before the House a copy of the miNtary dispatch, transmitted by the Marquis of Hastings, ia the year 1119, to the Secret Committee of the Court of Directors, relative to the organisation and allowances of the British army in India; alto foe a copy of the dispatch of the Court of Dip/dors to the Government of India, dated in 1923, as the sane subset ; together with a copy of any dispatches from India, in reply thereto, stating hew far such orders and instructions of the Court of Directors had been carried into effect." Mr. C. W. WYNN entirely concurred with the Hon; Gentleman in thinking, that to the administration of so vast an empire as India, containing so many millions, and sicua ed at so great a distance from this country, a very large d;scretion must be left as to the ezcution of any orders transmitted to him from home. At the same time he was surprised that the same principle had not re minded the Hon. Gentleman that any individual Owed in a situation of such difficulty, and having so larg :..:~ a discretion confided to him, was entitled to the confi dense of his country, at least till by hot an opportuni ty of being heard in answer to any charges brougkt wins him. Of the mutiny at Bareickport, we possemed in this country no official account, but one that was writ ten only:five days after the mutiny . itself &curled, and before the Court of Inquiry had finished its investiga tions. Under these circumstances, he (Mr. Wynn) felt that it would be the height of injustice to lay any infor mation on the subject before Parliament, till the Go vernment should be in possession of more complete and ample documents, and thereby be better enabled to meet the calumnious misrepresentations on this painful subject, which had been circulated in private letters.— None of the papers for which the Honourable Gentle man moved could throw the least light upon the sub ject a hich he desired to elucidate. The new regula tions referred to were not likely to be productive of the bad effects apprehended by the Honourable Gentleman. On the contrary, they were likely to be attended with great benefit, and to remedy the most serious evils hitherto experienced is that very valuable service, the Indian army—namely, the tardiness of promotion.— The Right Hon. Gentleman denied that the Indian Go-' sernment had manifested inattentiqn to the complaints of the Sepoys. Inquiries were instituted at the express command of Lord Amherst into the truth of them ; and being found to be true, an issue of 5,000 rupees was immedi rely made for the regiment. In a letter written b 1 t . e Commander in-Chief in India, it was expresslyl " that some dissatisfaction having been noticed to, the Commander-in-Chief as prevailing among the Se- 1 poys, in consequence of a want of bullocks for baggage, .n immediate order was issued to furnish them with au.locks ;" and Sir Edward Paget ascertained that those provided for the 47th regimen were actually in line.— was before the mutiny. The Right Honourable G ntleman expressed his regret at the calamity that ensued (pi the mutiny, in the destruction of so many Itve+-180, as i.e understood ; not 450 to 500, as had een men ioned in private letters. Tne difficulty of tripping the progress of such a calamity at the moment th Officer who commanded could have wished it, must he ohvious, when it was recollected that the artillery was sw,eping away ant desiroyiqg in the midst of a ulitude. He (Mr. W tin) oissented from the Hon Gentleman, as to the puni,hrnent that had been im posed on sme f the y 4 uiity parties. The expos's. eof I them in chains as a mete salutary punis those mill agy pen hie, that %ere but t , o CO'-i an in India. The Ho ottrahie Member tad argued that the war wa ilt-timed. But .he question was, whether the Indian Government were allowe: an opportunity to select their time? If a provocation were , ffered, the Govet uncut must, of coure, proceed to war ; anti, .n this nstance, when war was determined upo 4 was a witted that it could not be prosecuted in any quarter with so much advant lice as at Rang -on. Lord Am heist proc, eded on th • hest opinions that could be col. lected ; and was particularly guided by the authority of a brave and meritorious officer, Maj-r Campbell, who had since fallen a victim to the insalubrity of the cli mate. That Officer had been tour times up to Ava, and his opinion was, that, by capturing Rangoon, and pre venting the eremy from deriving any resources from that quarter, he would inevitably be reduced to came to terms. The object, or the justice of this war had never been called in question ; and in his opinion, Lord Amherst was compelled to enter into it; as he could not overlo4 the aggravating conduct of the Burmese Government without lowering and de grading the British character—( Hear, hear).—lt was quite fallacious to suppose, that no danger was ever apprehended from the Burmese. Lord Minto had himself stated his conviction, that if the Nepaul war terminated unsuccessfully, the Burmese would appear in arms against us. It was very true, that during the Administration of the Marquis of Hastings, a war with the Burmese Government had been prevented. But how was it got rid of? Why, by sending back the letter of the Burmese Monarch, and declaring that our Government conceived it to be a forgery. Such a plan might succeed once, but it certainly would not be effi cient a second time.—(Mr. Hums here asked, " What did the Right Honourable Gentleman say to the desti. tution of the Native Officers of the 47th Regiment r), Mr. Wynn observed, that the opinion of every person ' with whom he had conversed on the subject was, that it was quite - impossible the mutiny could have been carried on without the knowledge of the Native Officers, if they had performed their duty. They had, there fore, brought this destitution en themselves—(Hear). The Hon. Member had adduced many reasons for the alleged unpopularity of Lord Amherst; but he had omitted one, which he (Mr. Wynn) begged leave to notice. He really believed, that the circumstance of Lord Amherst having placed the Lady of a Commodore above the Ladies of the senior merchants, on the table of precedence, had excited more hatred, jealousy, and ill-feeling against Lord Amherst, than any other of his acts since he became Governor•General—(Hear, hear). Mr. ROBERTSON said, that the Burmese were tri butary to China, and that the Emperor of China had ordered his frontiers to be for tified. The Chinese would not suffer the Burman Government to be overthrown. Colonel DAVIES thought, that had the Sepoys been reasoned witb,they would have laid down their arms. No men were more attached to their Officers than theSepoys. He sbeubl support the Loden. Mr. FREEMANTLE was surprised at the speech of the gallant Officer, who must be aware of the necessity lof the most prompt measures in the case of mutiny ; and mutiny too when the troops were under orders to march against the enemy. In providing for the comforts of the army, the Company had added nearly 000,000 to their expenditure. Colonel BAILEY said, that at the commencement of theNepaul war greater reverses had been experienced than at present. A mutiny of the Sepoys, that had taken place SO years ago, had been put down exactly in the same manner as the present. From his long ac quaintance with the Indian army he was confident that the Native Officers must have been aware of the mutiny. But a very small proportion of the Native troops were Brahmins, and he doubted if a single Brahmin had been exposed on the road. Sir CHARLES FORBES spoke in favour of the motion. He knew the character and conduct of the 47th Regiment of Native Infantry. He knew that they had marched against the enemy upon the first alarm, and when the Monsoon was at its height ; but then they had their coolies and cattle, and without these it was well known they would not march. He feared the danger of India was not felt as it should be. He thought the crisis was critical; and it was plain that Lord Am herst had brought it into this condition. No Hon. Member would rise and say, that he thonghtthat Noble Lord, in the present posture of affairs, a fit Governor- Genet al of India. He had very early expressed his, . mail= the necessity of sub step. Hen derived his information from ohepirnecioannUedpOn; sob t i t jec h t, visth m at ore lA :tr d o A ng m l ber y 6 3 1 1 1; 1° 4 1 e! a good source—operate ktter from a Lady in India. Colonel BAILEY • Sir J. SEBRlGegnedrotested against the mode of at. tack that bad been pursued. " Memoirs" might be made interesting by being interspersed with the Lady's letters—(A larigh);—but did it become the British House of Commons to listen to attacks, founded on a Indy's letters on the ()overeat-General? Ile regretted that this irregular debate had been brought on. Sur CHARLES FORBES said, that he had seen twenty other letters, to the same effect with that be had stinted. The CHANCELLOR of the EXcHWUR,said, that the ptesent debate had led to some ot the most ex traordinary assertions with respect to pal lic offi;ers that it had ever been his fortune to hear in the con-se of his Parliamentary experience. As the Hono3r-ble Gen tleman opposite (Mr. Hume). had brought forward h s motion is an extremely thn House, he would just state, that with that motion, the conduct either of Lord Am herst or Sir Edward Paget had nothing on earth to do —(Hear,hear).—The motion was to produce a mili tary dispatch—not ot Sir Edward Paget—not of the year 1824—N0 ; but actually a mlitary dismatch of the Marquis of Hastings, in the year 1819. He perceived the mode in which, with some ingenuity, but with very little fairness, the Honourable Member thought he had connected his attack upon Lord Amherst with this dis patch. It was a document which referred to the al lowances of the Bengal army at the date. But the Hon. Member forgot, or perhaps was not aware, that, in fact, the paper did not Wins his observa ions within the record, for it concerned the pay and allowances of l l only the European Officers—(Hear)—He did think that when Honourable Gentlemen came forward, im pugning the conduct of such men as L•rtd Amherst, and reprcaching the Government for hesitating a mo. ment at his recall, it was a little surprising that they had not courage to come fors and with a direct motion, and call upon the House for a vote on the subject, in stead of throwing out charges against certain t ientle men, in a way which precluded tit • possibility of their being answered—(Hear, hear).—For how could Lord Amherst or Sir Ed Ard Paget defend themsulvet against attacks such as tho.e now ss liberally made upon them? Fur his (t e Right Honourable Gentle man's) part, he knew Lo , d Amherst personally; but he would not, on such a occasion. niter one w. rd in his defence—(Hear, hear).—lie did not think t e course rs, w t ken ought to be answered; he diJ not think that it would be justice to Lora Amherst or to Si, Edward Paget to attempt to ans .t r it—( Hear, hear).—Let the H 'pourable Member (Mr. Hume) come forward directly ssi h a motion, calling on the House for eel s. re. and both the individuals whom he attacked woul fin l abutoatice ot defenders, and cf able ones ;' hut un less he could connect his recent observations with the di.pa'ch of the Marquis of Hastings In 1819—unless he could do this, and be (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) defied him to do it—be bad certainly treated - lord Amherst unfairly. After a few observations from Mr. limn? ! Mr. Amu., Mr. F. PALMER Mr. WIORAM, Mr. TZAR; and Mr. WASEA, the House divided— Ayes Noes Majority against the Motion ---43 GAMS LAWS. On the motion of Mr. STUAaT WOITLET, the House went into a Committee am the Game Laws, Colonel WOOO in the Chair. On the clause tbat game be the propeny of the owner of the land, Mr. LEYCES ma objected to the principle or this clause, as being too ambitious and as attempting to do too much; he thought that they should du quite enough if they rendered it saleable. He should, there'ore, pro pose to leave out all that part of the clause which ren dered game the property of the owner of the sod. Mr. STUART WORTLEY said that he could not agree to this amendment, as it would entirely destroy the object of his TU. Sir J. SEBRIG HT, in case this clause should be re jected, _ strongly advised that the farmers and yeomen in the neighbourhood of great preserves, should mark the young folks invited down to shoot, and inforaragahist them. He gave this advice as an owner of preserves-- as an old sportsman, who had killed much game —•as _ a Magistrate, who had committed hundreds for poaching. ~ After some further discussion, the clause was carried. Mr. LESTER wished to know who was to be con. sidered as the ig beneficial proprietor" in cases of jease under tenant for life or in tail? Mr. S [TART WORTLEY said, that the property must, like the produce of the land, be held to be in the owner of the land. Mr. J. MARTIN objected to the injustice of taking the property of the game out of the lessee, and vesting it in the lessor. He thou t that the occupier bad the best title, sad moved an accordingly. Mr. J. BENETT thought that the lessee under a, church should be preferred as beneficial proprietor before the occupier. Mr. STUART WORTLEY said, that he MUR per. silt in assigning the interest of the " beneficial occupier,"_ as it respected the property of the game, to the Omerer. of the kand—the only party which the House could acknowledge in this case. As he was entitled primarily' to the piodece of the soil, so the property of the same most vest in him. The Committee then di•ided— For the chum, I Far the amendment, 41 Ma asks A dismission 1111M14111 UM other chutes : the Howse suennollt the Chairman reported progress, and obtained leave is di The other orders of the day were then disposed of, mad tie Hems adjourned at Hats -rasp Two 'Mama. It is asserted that the recognition of the independence of Brazil by the mother country is settled. This may be the lact ; for in putting forth a general principle, we do not say that there are no exceptions. The Public, how. ever, should take care to receive with doubt all articles of news, however confidently asserted, by which foreign bands or loans are liable to be affected. The price which the Brazilian State is said to have consented to pay for the diplomatic recognition of that of which it already had the actual possession, is a million and a half, now in the hands of the Contractors far the Loan etiginally intended for Brazil. MARIN& SOCIITT.—The Anniversary of this highly valuable Institution was celebrated yesterday, at the London Tavern, Bishopsgate•street. The LORD MATO* presided, supported on the right by Lord Borsow on the left by Admiral Sir P. SlALmmxt. besides, a numerous and extremely blage of Gentlemen present, amongst Officers of high rank in the Navy. The in proposing Prosperity to the institution, on its excellent advantages in affordinp' lum for debtitute but intlepiol boys, brave seamen. 'Thirty-five thousand been provided for by the Society since_ _ About seventy boys were then introduced, in military order round the room. They bold set of lads; and gave three cheers the boatswain's call before they retired. derable sum nrartollticted after dinner, z ' " whoen we •en goat was tone. that by el •ere approved of at LAPS WI YVY a mom, as." - OLM. -• There was, as respectable assets- sd t whom were many The Loan MAYOR, Pa itution," expatiated ing at once an asy- cis and a rtursery for no boys, he said, had of :e its establishment. used, and marched They seemed a fine ems efts in answer to ed. A very con,6 eM er.