Star. — London, England, 1805-05-15 00:00:00

monnt in Ireland. such is the natttral ana neeet fart' progrefs. Again : Reform and Emancipation were the two watch words in that country ; a loud clamour was mired, and one could not be endured without the other. I am well aware I am now tread ing upon dangerous ground, and if I advance too far I troll gentlemen will give me an opportunity of explaining the motives if my propels. Let me fop. pol e the Catholics acquire a feat in Parliament by the vote of this night, and that they poilefs the ab ilraft right contended for which can only be with held by the application of the maxim, " Sales ffropal, faprema lex." Imagine the fifty or fixty are eleCted, and feel themfelves uneafy on account of the (mall , minority in which they are placed among the 658 ,Members composing this Affembly—' The barrier is •., .w thrown down ; our power,' fay the Catholics, • rellored and augmented ; nothing remains to give .1l et to this happy change, but to revive the Irifh ,l'o-liarrient. The three hundred members will then yd.imc their funeions ' and the Proteftant afcendancr. is &Moved, with the boroughs attached to its inte :red.,' Whatever exultation may be felt under the t'roployment of this language, the train of conic-' quences is fearful and formidable. Under a Catholic Parliament in Ireland, how long (ball we remain an united people ? If this were the only objeCtion it 'would, in my mind, be fufEcient. I fhould tremble at the feparation, becanfe I am perfuaded that, with out the conflation with England, Ireland could be neither profpernus nor happy. While you are turn ing your attention to the claims of the Catholics, are you to forget a million of Proteltants who are enti tled to your proteCtion ? Are you to deny to them the hidings of the Revolution, of the Hanoverian lac cellion, of the illuarinus Honk of BrunlXvick, and iif the Proteftart faith ? The elevation of the Catho lic is the depreffion of the Proteßant. What then will become of the Proteltant afcendancy to which I alluded ? I mean nothing extravagant by this Pro teltant afcendancy, which has been a favourite topic of complaint; I will tell you what I mean by it : it is nothing more than a Protellant King, Proteftant Lords, and Protellant Commons. Be)..nd this I never claimed any other afcendancy, and while I live I will demand this for my country. But it is faid, what is required is little for us to grant, and much for them to receive; I contend it is exactly the con trary ; it is much for us to grant, and little for them to receive. They arc to receive power, a few of them are to be railed to feats in the two Enures of Parliament. This very limited power is what they are to derive. But we are to confer that oa which the liberty of the cottntry depends ; that on which the Itrength of our armies and the luperiority of our Navies repofe ; the Bill of Rights, the blefl ings of the Conftitutioc, and all that has happily and honourably diftingitithed this country from the furrounding nations. Is this little ? What have you snore to give, and what remains to you worth pre ferving ? (a cry of hear! hear ! . f ors the filiaillerial Ilench.) Then we are &fired to attend to France, ender the adminiltration of the Duke of Sully, and of M. Neckar. WAS the crown of France bound by she fame oath ? or, was that kingdom not under cir cumftances extremely diffimil it ? Was the Honour. ables Gentleman ferious when lie referred us to Ve. -nice ? Venice, embarratred by contalting parties and conflieing polemics. Where is now this proud Re public which once defied the collefrive itrength of empires ? It has difappeared, and all its glory vani(hed with it. (Some Members furling, Mr. Foller continued) " Gentlemen may laugh, but if they would only devote fix months nit a silk to Ire land, and learn what the feelings of an henna Pro tellant is, they would be in lonic degree aware of the peril of difctiffing filch a fubjeft as this at filch a time . 1 will conclude with one remark, " Prinripiis oya." Let the Houle, by its vote of this night, Thew the fenfe of the conott y, let it rejce a prora tion huftile to the interests of Ireland, and of the Icingehan at large ; and by the decided tone in whi c h" we now announce our opinions, let us difcourage all futme attempts to ditto, b the public repole, and to end:lnger the national fecurity." ?!r. LEE faid a few words in explanation. Mr.GEORGE PONSONDY fpoke at fame length, in reply to the arguments of Mr. Evan. Ile com mereed by thanking the IA Speaker for having af forded him, in one half of his fpve.h, the means of anfwerirg the other half. The Riot Honourable Gentleman had applauded the loyalty and gallantry of Ira Catholics in Egypt, and at the battle of the Nile ; but he would reward them by refuting their Petition. Ile had fpoken of the great dangers he dreaded from feting his Majedy furrounded by Ro mlo Catholic Councillors; hut who was to fin round faint with them ? Why tile King Itimfell. The King hintklf was, of his own ft ee-u ilt, to choofe Coun cillors who were to introduce the par-mount autho rity of the Pope I There•would, he ta ttiled, always be virtue enough in the Parliament to corral itch an evil. The country won!d never fuller it. Did the Right Honourable Gentleman judge of the future by the pad ? They had, be allowed, fought our battles; but if we gave them the reward of their loyalty, they would fight them no lor:;•••r. H► had laid, that what we gave them was mitch, hat little for them to re deive. If fo. that liaf€ was to overturn the Church ar!ti State. He hail laid, that w e humid have from tl•irty tip to eighty Catholic Ivienabtas in that Houle, advancing much fader in arguments than the Catho- Lev ever would in palwer. %Who were to ClinOli or :eturn them I In truth, he was certain, that in to 7.L41 , . rot ten Catholic Members would be ret u rned. Lot ;appt•fe the whole hundred, with five hundred and filly-eight Protellant Member's, what did the Right Honourable Gentleman then luppole ? Why, - that the Union would be dianlved, and the one hundred Members fent back to Ireland to hold a Po. pifh Parliament. He had a great perfonal refpeO for the Right Honourable Gentleman, but it was really contemptible to talk of Inch effats from a few Irilh Members. It feenied as if fume perfons were font to Parliament to calumniate their country, tor he had heard of the barbarous Rate of Ireland, and that no Proteßant could live in Tome parts of it in fafety.— He had heard this before, in another place : but he heard it here with greater fhame. If the Irifb were fo viradidive, how could they, who made fuel' rcprefentations of them, walk their own (beets in fafety and yet he had never heard of any intlances of violence or ill-ufage towards thofe who had expreffed fuch fentiments in public.— A Learned Gentleman had yelierday oppofed this meafure upon grounds that would be equally in op • • pofition to it, and which would have led Wm is 11- fufe the eleßive feaschife, and the foundation of the College of Maynooth. What, did he wilh them to be ravages? or to fend thcm to the Pope, whom he had defcribed as the creatute of Bonaparte, to learn loyalty ? What are that Right Hon. Gentleman's uo• lions of loyalty ? Gentlemen were very plentiful in afTertions, but very (Canty in reafons. Suppofe a man of great charadter ' attainments, and genic::, , a Ca tholic, feleed by the King to be Secretary of State, or Chancellor of the Exchequer, he mull be a fool or a madman to advice his Sovereign to etack the Chnrch and State. How long could the King keep fuch a man ? Would the Parliament allow it. or the country fubmit to it ? But Catholics' oaths could not be believed : like lovers, they are only deceitful.— The Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Fofter) had praif ed many CathOlics as men of great worth ; was he a man of worth whofr oath could not be taken ?He then read an extra& from a Roman Catholic Prayer Book, on the fubjeft of the fuppofed depofing power of the Pope, (hewing their difbelief of that doarine, as well as the oaths now taken under their relaxing laws. It was grange, if we entertained filch an opinion of Catholics, that Gentlemen from Leland left their property and children under the care of Catholic fervants. There never was fo foul a mit reprefentation as that of the Irifh chars ter. The charadter of the Irifh Catholic was in itfelf excel lent. No let of men in Eurdpe would preferve fo much of what was good under fuch a long oppref fion. They owed what was good in them to them felves, and what was evil to theirGovetnment. He was not afraid to fay In, and to tell the Houfe, that mil: government was the caufe of their misfortunes. He wished to ferve this Country—but not to flitter it. Ireland had been badly governed. This was the till time he had ever known an Irith matter coolly treat. ed by an Englifhaffembly. He had many connexions here, and great attachment to alit country. But the management of Ireland had been, to a familiar ex preffion, conlideted here as a lore.. It was thrown t n fuhaltern itoen‘ s. The origin ofthis arofe principally in early days I rom commercial jealouly.Men ufed to think, when the knowledge on that fubjedt was narrow and confined, that to keep others poor was the way to enrich themftives, as if it were molt profitable to deal with poor customers. He was furprifed the Protef tants themfelves had not called for this meafure; but power would corrupt both individuals and nations. Conciliation was necefiry. Look at France. Feu abhge doceri was an old maxim. Of all the fat. (ions that lald exiled in the French Revolution, none had thought of excluding men for their religions opi nions ; and whatever men might lay refpedting the Pope and Bonaparte, the Protellants were now eligi ble to all (Aces in France. It we fent an army into the South of France, did we expel the Protellants there to join them ? Did not the Protellant power of Prutlia cheat us of our money, while the Catholic State or Auaria frlL;lit till (he could contend no lon ger ? France knew that lircr ' -rth in Europe wa s ftrength every where. It was in Europe we ought to be Itrong. There was the root that took a firm hold and fcnt up the truck and branches, and foliage that covered fo much of the world. On our two iflands we mull depend in fighting for Empire. The Peti tion could not he rtjedled but by thole who thought it deltrudtive of the eflablifhment of the State. That it had no fuch tendmey had been proved. On the contrary, if compl.ed with, it tended to unite us all. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQIJER role and laid in fubitance—" Differing, Sir, as I do, nn many points, It the Honourable Gentleman by whom this inoti.m has been introduced, and dif fering at the fame time from many Gentlemen who have opposed the motion as to the ground of their condo& I feel myfelff-alled upon to Rate very lhortly to the lloult the views by which my sentiments are influenced, and by which my vote will be guided on the prefent occasion. In the firlt place, hower,:r, I malt eaprcfs my great fatisfaElion am the temper and moderation with which the lubjedt has been btoneht before the Houle, and I troll that nothing on my p.trt will ditturb that matters and impartiality with which a queßion of lo moth magnitude fhould be tiiieuffed. I. ant happy to notice, likewise, that from tl;c manner in which the !tunnels was introduced by the iionour- Gentlera in, I (hall be relieved from the necef ii y of ente.iog upon th'.fe contentious topics on which it has frequently been my lot to be obiigen to ' enter, when gnetiinn., fornewhat fimilar have been ' under confiden.o ion. The Petitioners do not ground their demand, on any cl. im of tight, and though the Honour:dal,: Gentleman may not have renounced his private (viol. n, upon the lubjedt, he is content to let the matter be difetliird on the ground of expediency. For my own part, lam ready to confels, that I never did confider this quetlion as at all involving ' any claim of tight, and that it was folely on pi inci ples of expediency that I fhould have evor tee o m. mended it to your confideration, or the prayer of the Petition to your adoption. I never felt that the team Catholic Ernantipa•ion ever applied, in any rational view, or any fair definition, to the lima (ion in which the Catholics hood, and with relation to that in which, they were &limos to be placed. Petl..re, indeed, in my tiew, the expe;irney of the mi g ht be more oppofed to Lite right than the Honz.urable Gentleman imagined, though he th:tiLs the prat9:,:al conduit n might be the rime. I apprehend l i ttle would be found more than a ilride of liIti;ICIICC tnnween his tight and my expediency. —The dittindtion appears to me broad, evident, and fundamental. Right is that which is indepeuient of chic urnitances ; expediency that which includes the consideration of cocumltances, and is wholly go vcria.d by them and dependent on them. All quef dons of the enjoyment of power, the exercife of Iran chile, and the admiffibility to office, Molt be decided by views of general convenience and advantage, and are not in the nature of perfee perfonal tights, he cattle they are beliowed, not for the benefit of the in dividual, but conferred for the fake of the State, for whore fake the power is exercifed, and the duty per formed. For this reafon. in all quellions where milar points have been involved, loch as queflions for the repeal of the Tell AR, &c. I have thought it ef fential to difpute arty claim of right as a pretenfinn altogether inconfiftent with the foundation of our li berties and Constitution, by which we are bound to confider what is for the advantage of the whole com munity. In this view we are bound to confider, not the advantages of a meafure under one particular view or eine let of circumitences, but to look at kas invol ving a multitude of confcquences in its adoption, i emotions nay, in its very direufGon, and in the' manner and time of its agitation. All thole circum -1 fiances which mutt fo muchatea the refult so f my pro- pofition mutt be taken into the confideration of its ge net-al expediency. In this view, and with thefe impref fions, I looked at the queftion of giving to the Ca tholics the privileges now claimed, of being able to tit in Parliament, and to hold certain offices. On that principle I felt, that entertaining, as I did, a a ifh for the repeal of thofe laws, of which I cannot refieet without fome regret, that the repeal has not been ob tained ; yet 'always felt, that previous to the Utiiim with Ireland, it could not have been confident with the permanent fafety of the Protellant interest, with the eftablithed frame and conditution of that coun try, or with the exiftence of the connection with Great Britain, that loch privileges fhould have been conferred upon the Catholics. After that, indeed, I taw the matter in a different tight, and. though cer tainly no pledge ever was given to the Catholics, that their claims thould be granted (as has been admitted by an Honourable Gentleman behind me, Mr. Lee) yet, 1 have no hefitation to fay what I believe will be borne out by the publication alluded to (his fpeeeh) the accuracy of aihich, as a record of my fentiment on that particular occafion, I am not going to dif pute ; that I then was of opinion that, if it was found right to grant the claims of the Cttho lies, they might be granted with mote Way to the general interefts of the Protefiants and of the whole Empire, and even, if rejected, they might be rejected with lefs danger to the tranquillity of Ireland, than if that country had continued under a local Legiflature. I thought ton, that loch con. ceflions would have been granted by a United Parliament under Inch guards and fecurities for our civil and ecclefiaftical Coniiitution, as would entire ly remove the danger which many apprehended might atife from fo great a departure from the policy of former times. Such were my fenriments formerly —fuch are they now. And unlefs I were fenfible that there are circumflances which mud interfere with the a zcompliffiment of the objet in the only way in which I conceived it either wife to attempt or even to agitate the quellion, I myfelf would have deemed it my duty to fubmit it to Parliament.— But, likewife, I fbould have done In only in the con fidence that there were fuch weight and influence in concurrence with me as would facilitate the palling of the meafure without fuch a mixture of oppolition, of acrimonious difctiffion, and contrariety of fen timetit and interest, as would infallibly be highly prejudicial to the public welfare, and incnnfittent with the end propofed. At the fame time, I do not believe that it could be the wills of the Catholics to prefs fordward their claims in any manner that could tend to excite hollilities, to rekindle animoli ties, and to revive jealoulies. Yet, allowing every thing for the good intentions, for the finccrity of the Catholics in their declarations, that they have nn <Cf. paition to avail themtelves of any power they may attain to endanger the Church, or to encroach upon ellahlilhed interest.,, I do not think it injurious to them to luppole, that on time future occalion, under the temptati..n of fume favourable opportunity, they might feel that natural with, and one pari , :ula.ly in cident to the Catholic Religion, to aggraneize the principles to which they are attached. It would have been wife and proper not to have departed from the policy of former times, without adopting new fecu rities for Church and State fuitable to the circum- Ilances of the times and to the novelty of the dangers ' that might be apprehended. It would have been proper and necelfary, therefore, to have accumpa flied coaceflions to the Catholics with new checks arid guards for the etlablithed cc.nflitution. I thought thefe precautions might to he adopted on different grounds from any inherent fufpicion of the Catholics, whore general loyalty I am as willing as any to admit. I know that it was not as Catholics that fo many petit - ins of that perlualion were engaged in the rebel lion. Ir is true that the rebellion !piling from dude principles of Jacohinifin which were let kofe in France ; but it is not unfair to fay alio, that the in fluence of Neils that - delves, corrupted by Jacobin principles, may not have been without off, in aggra vating the evil. For this realon it appeated to me de firabie zo provide checks cortefponding to the danger to be apprehended ; checks not applyi :g to the Catho. lies as Catholics, tut filch Tells as would he a leen rity apinli the principles on which the Rebellion originated. It timed expedient alio to provide fome guards againil the evil influence which the bigotry of Prielts might prompt them to esercile over the lower orders, and for that purpofi I was delimits 1 , that mealures fhnuld be adopted to conciliate the Priells to the Government, by making them, in fume degree, dependant upon it ; thus making them links to L.:4lmA the Covet nment with the lower charts of fociety. Convinced that this queftiun ought not to he entertained as to direa our attention from thole dangers which had threatened, or thole that at a fit tore time might threaten the Coniiitution, I law that the whole of Ureic views and conliderations were to b e combined into a fylteni, under which the Ca tholics would enjoy equal pi iviicges, and the tltablilli ed Government would be peifeelly fecure ; tinder which the Catholics would be fatisfied and the Pro- ' tenants fale. Looking at the various interals to be conciliated, the different objtels to be termed, I was demons, if pollible, to find that conciur , •,:e which would have given a fair chance for carrying into efLet a well matured and digefled fy Item, without the dan ger of Oink obtlacles that might pervert its tendency or defeat its effect. When 1 !late this, I mull fay like wile, that I confidered the period which immediately followed the Union s molt favourable for carrying into execution thole views, not becaufe any pledge had been given, but becattfe a very natural expeeta tion was entertained, that then the r9eallire would be brought forward. I thongtt too that the Protellant interells of Ireland, relieved from the precarious Hate in which they flood before the Union, finding their caufe and their rights confblialated with thole of the whole Protetiants of England, Would no longer fee in the extenfion to the Catholics of the privileges claimed, any danger to their propel ties, to their pn l i - litical or religious liberties ; I [ruffed that it would have been poffible therefore, to bring forward the meafure under the belt aufpices, without any danger of reviving jealuufies, of rekindling animufities, and producing thole feuds Co incompatible with real con ciliation, and with the ends propofed. Unlefs done with thefe advantages, the advantages of the meafure I conceived would be loft. Unfortunately, however, Sir, circumftances oe,or • red which prevented me from bringing forward this great meafure in the manner I had hoped for, and in deed in the only manner which promised to be at once advantageous to the public, while it rekindled no po !ideal prejudicesand enflamed no religious antraofnies, while it accomplifhed a great national benefit, Vb4,' ac companied by none of thole collateral dangers which many Gentlemen confider fo formihable as to render the agitation of the queftion at all either politic or ex pedient. What was generally the nature of thefe cir cumffances, the Houle are not ignorant from what fell from me at the period to which I have alluded. I then explained all that appeared to me to be neceftiry, and at prefent I do not feel myfelf called on to give a more detailed explanation. Theft circumflances' certainly did appear tome ofa nature which rendered it expedient for me to relinquith the fituation I then held in his Majeffy's Government, f-r, conliftently with my own feelings, I could not brine forward th quellion while fuch eircumllances existed, and could not bring mvf-lf to be a parry to the agitation, far lefs to the preffing of a meafure, to whore fuccefs there was an irrefittible obllacle. For me to have in fuch a fituation prefix! the difeuffion of the quellion, would have been altogether incenfiltent with my own views, the very effence of the fyllem which I meant to propofe, being to etlablith on a permanent balls, tran quillity, union, and peace. among the inhabitants of Ireland. My objeft was to allay the term_nt that had tun long fatally exilled, to truth all odious jea- Indies and diftinftions, but this objeCt I never could hope to obtain by prefing the confideration of a mea lure, profeffing to have thefe objefts in view, when I mutt have been fenfible that the minds of men were not prepared for its reception, when I was confcious it could not be carried in that fpirit of harmony, from which all its utility was derived. To have attempt edothen to carry the meaf ire, under fuch circumftan ces, would, instead of conciliation, hay:pi-twill. ed jea- Ion& ; instead of healing up the wounds which religi ous rancour had produced, would only have occafion ed new feuds and frefh conctflions. It certainly gave rife, in my mind, to bitter grief, to fee that I could nqi, with any profpea of fuccefs, bring forward a meafure, from the adoption of which I anticipated fo much ad- I vantage to the Empire ; but, though I felt the deepest regret on the fubjeft, I refolved, and I am fpeaking in the hearing of thole who have heard the refolution declared, that I (should never be concerned, either in agitating or preffing a meafure, the full advantages of which cannot be received, nnlefs it meets with the general approbation of the parties, to whole in ! terelts it principally applies. I am not, indeed, fuch a vifionary as to imagine that no great public meafure is to be introduced, milers there is a profpeet that it will be almoit tinanimouliy adopted ; but, I mull be candid enough to own, that where the meafure has a firong combination to encounter, it ought not to be inconsiderately or intemperately urged. Some pains ought to be taken in fmorithing and foftening down adverfe opinions, and, while a great object is accom plithed, to take care that la few evil confequences as peffible (hail attend it. This, Sir, is my view of the Inbjeft immediately fubliquent to the Union, and this view, on the molt mature contideration, continues unchanged. Even admitting that the queftion now before the Houle were carried, of which there appears to me hardly even a chance, it would not at all pro mote thole views of permanent conciliation, to which I my attention was principally direeted—on the con trary, .1 if the quellion is not carried, the only effed of agitating or preffing the bufinefs now, will be to excite hopes which will never be gratified ; to give rife to expeftations which are fore to ter- I urinate in dilappotntment. The Catholics will not feel grateful for a benefit meant to be conferred nn them, and the Proteflants, both of Ireland and England, will be in danger of being difg,ulled at what they may conceive an unjufiiiiable attempt to remove thole checks on Roman Catholics which the wifiom of our ancetlors provided for the fecurity of our church ettablifinnent. Nnw, Sir, looking to the chance of fuccefs, do we not find that the pi - volition is brought forward under the moil unfavourable cir cumtlances ? We find that the great body of our molt refpeftable clergy, that moll of our coutiderable No bility, that the molt refpeetable corporate bodies in the kingdom, that the middling indulirious orders in the community, that even the mafs of the lower or ders are ail agreed in opposition to the motion. I ask, then, even the lion. Member himfelf, who in t•oduced the bufinefs, whether this was not a very out - avowable moment for fuhmiting the 1 ulinefs to the confideration of Parliament ? or whetl.er, if the motion were, contrary to all probability, carried, the Weed's would he Inch as was at all likely to be pro. duelive of important confequences ? So fenfible of this, indeed, are even thole who are molt flrenuous in behalf of the claims of the Petitioners, that they feem even to anticipate the decilion of the Houfe in its rejeelion ; and it was a convielion that this was not the time to look for fuccels, which determined me not to agitate or to prefs a bufinefs where a rejec tion of the claims of a refpcCtable body n*ght pro. duce confequences much to be deplored. 1 believe !: the general fentiment and feeling of the public mind to be (trong and deep-rooted againtl the claims of the Lin Catholics; and refting the whole efficacy of my meafure on a generally declared fenfe of national feeling, it would have been altogether abfurd in me at prefent to have fubmitted it to your approbation or rejeftion. How tar circumtlances may alter fo as to remove all the objections now exining to the difcuffron of the quellion, it is not for me to conjec tore ; and this is the let's necefrary, becaufe when the obtlacles are removed, I hare no doubt that no titre will be loft in fnbmitting to Parliament fome propo. titian on a matter li, intimately connelled with the highell interefts, and fo neceffitry to the permanent fatety of the Empire. The Honourable Gentleman who began the debate this evening, and whom I do not not now fee in his place, ( Mr. W. Smith,) thought proper to make lime remarks on a de cifion of the other Houle of Parliament, on this fubjetl, and argued, that this decition by no means interfered with the decition to which this Houle in their wifdom might arrive. I am by no means, Sir, difpofed to controvert the potation, that we are in all our decifions completely independent of the other branch cf the Legiflature. I am fenfible that, even after that branch have come to aparticular de. cilion, this Houle, fupported by the voice of th country, and the ltrong force of reafon and juffice, may fucceed fisite of all oppofition, in carrying a meafure connected with the fecurity, or the honour of the Empire. This, however, is a power always to