Star. — London, England, 1819-02-10 00:00:00

I r 4. E i, , r , 0 I 7 . 1 i.. r. : , 1 , ! '- ,'it° 1 i•t r i► , .1 t ~` k ~' ; , g, ' , ~- PARLIAMENTARY PROCEEDINGS. HOUSE OF LORDS, FEBRUARY 9. The Bill for vesting the Care of his Majesty's Person ir. his Royal Highness the Duke of Yeas was returned from the Com mons, without any amendment, by the Cuaricruos of the Et- CUZQUiI, attended by a considerable number of blernbess. Viscount -SIDMOUTII moved the Order for their Lordships going into a Conunitte on the Westminster Hustings Bill. The House immediately resolied into a Committee, and the clauses of the,Biil were agreed to by their Lordships, without observa tion or amendment, and on the resuming of he House the Re porkiras received. Viscount SIDMOUTH, by command of his Royal Highness the 'Mace Regent, laid upon the table a Copy of the Instruc tions transmitted to the Governor of Java, respecting the cession of the same, and also.of the Isle of Dental; together with certain. accompanying documents pursuant to a recent Address of their Lordships. GRANTS TN REVERSION. The Order of the Day being read, Earl GROSVENOR rose to make his noticed motion on this subject. On former occasions, he ob served, he had frequently addressed their Lordships on this subject, and though some of the propositions which he had the honour to make were negatived, others were approved of by their Lordships. The object of his present motion was not to destitute the Crown of the power of granting places in reversion, or even to suspend such power for a limited time, but to obtain information to a certain extent respect ing grants in reversion. What he should move for was, for a Return of such Places or Offices as may be granted since the Ist of January, 1818. This proposition be thought could net he consistently re sisted, as their Lordships knew there have been am ple returns on the subject for the preceding ten or twelve years. There certainly may have been no grants of the kind since the period stated ; in that cL e it would be a blank return. However, he the pail:city on all occasions of the kind was productive of the most salutary effects, as then the public would scv what grants were actually made, a consideration which must have a great check upon improper grants. But in the present instance he meant to go a little farther than the case of Grar.ts made merely by the Crown. lie thought it would be beneficial also, to have a specification of grants made by other persons in situations of public autho rity ; with a view to the eventual correction of abuses i on the part of persons, should any he found to exist ; and, he observed, that nothing could more dis gust the public than any endeavours at concealment. It was his wish, therefore, to know what grants of the kind had taken place within a stated interval. Their Lordships ?nay recollect, that in the last regu lations which were adopted with respect to these offi ces, three in particular had been expressly excepted, namely, the Clerkship of the Parliament, the Clerk ship of the Pleas in the Irish Court of Exchequer, and the office of Lord Justice General of Scotland. The N , +ble Earl then moved an Address to the Prince R agent, praying that there might be laid before the I!utise a return of tll offices granted in reversion by tbeCrciern since the Ist day of January, 1818; and secondly, for a similur return of grants made by per sons in other situations of public authority. The first branch of the motion was read in the usual way from the Woolsack. Witlerespeet to the second branch, The LORD CHANCELLOR quitted his seat, and observed the motion was couched in so indefinite and informal a way, as diet no order could, with propriety, be made upon it. The designation should be mete specific. There were situations of the kind apper taining to the different Courts of Justice, as well ;is to other particular departments of the public service, and which should be duly specified. Earl GROSVENOR observed, his wish was to Lave his motion as clear as possible, and he there fore could have no objection to amend the latter part of it. The Earl of LIVERPOOL, said, the motion could not be agreed to in its present shape ; it should be rendered- clear and specific. Persons in other situa tions of public authority, were words so indefinite, that the Officer of the House would not know upon v.hoin he was to serve such an ruder. Lord HOLLAND thought such an order, if at tended to, would produce the desired return. The Earl of LIVERPOOL explained. He thought such an order by no means sufficiently clear or distinct. Earl GROSVENOR observed, his wilt was to ob t.tin full information upon the subject, and he thought it preferable to make the wording as general as pos- Fibl; for without full iv:formation no beneficial re gulation could be hereafter made. To litnit their consideration merely to such grants as were derived from the Crown, would be far from sufficiently ex ten,ive. With their Lordships' leave, however, he world withdraw the second branch of his motion, in• order to render it more specific ar.d •di,tinct for the consideration of the house on a future day. . This was accordingly done ; and on the question, the first branch of the motion was agreed to by their Lordships.—Adjourned till to-morrow. lIOUSE OF COMMONS. • The House met at three o'clock, and proceeded to elect Com. Inktees by ballot, to try the entrits of the Elections for the Bo ro-sghs of Fowey - Canielford, on the I'4titions which bad been presem:il: FOR - EY ELECTIONS• The following were reported as the Members chosen for the Fowey Election:—Mr. A. W. Roberts, Sir M. W. Ridley, Ur. R. B. Cooper. Mr. A. Hudson, Sir W. Guise, Mr. J. Dunlop, Mr. S. W. Bon man ' Mr. S. Itorrocks , Mr. W. Lewis Hughes, Lord J. Townsend, Lord A ' lthorpe Hon. P. Douglas, lion. Sir A. I lope, Mr. 11. Wrottesley, Right Hon. T. Wiliam. This Committee was directed to meet forthwith. Mr. LITTLETON presented a Petition from certain Bankers in the County of Stafford, praying for some alterAtion in the Act of the 57 Geo. lIL relative to Extents in Aid, as the provisions , of that Act well not adequate to the repression of the mischiefs which it was intended should be prevented by it. The Petition was read and ordered to lie on the table, and to be printed. Mr. BROGRIIIAM gave notice of his intention to move the House o.i thorinbject of the Nottinghamshire Petition to-morrow. Lord CABILLRF.AGII, apprehensive that the Report on the Windsor lisliment would not be made sufficiently early to meet thieonsideration of the House previously to the day mwt ordain for the fartber discussion of the New Establish ment for Witidsor, which stood for Thursday next, moved the ps,tponenstit of the latter business, till Thursday sennight.— Ordered. Lord CAStLEREAGH also postponed his Motion regard- Log the Treaties until Tuesday next, as he expected do Monday to be able to bring down some additional Papers, and amonx, them voluminous docume: ts relative to the Slave Trade. IRISH GRAND JURIES. Mr. DAWSON rose to present a Petition from the Magistrates of the County of Londonderry, against the Irish Grand Jury Bill. He took the opportunity of calling the AtteWW l of the Roux to the abuses • I which had existed in the Grand Jury sy'stem of Ire land. Reports had been preformed to Parliament which fully exposed the nature and extent of those abuses. His Right Honourable Friend, (the Member for . Clare,) last Session introduced a Bill of which this Petition complained, becatise it would be inefficient, so far as it related to the County of Londonderry. But it would be easy, without any great alteration in the Bill, to adapt it to, the circumstances of that County. This Petition had been drawn up in conse quence of a meeting of the Magistrates of the County, assembled for the purpose of considering how the Bill could be rendered efficient. The Petition stated the various objections to the Bill, and the way in which it was proposed to obviate them. The Petition was brought up and read. Mr. V. FITZGERALD defended the Bill, and in sisted much on the abuses - which existed in the Grand Jury system before he had introduced the Bill, and 'on the difficulties under which he had carried it through the House. He knew that, the provisions of the Bill had, in many parts of Ireland, been executed, and executed with applause. He warned the House against altering the great principles of the Bill. For his own part, he should certainly decline bringing forward the proposed amendments, because he thought they would go to trench upon the great principles of the Bill. He pressed the propriety of Government supporting and countenancing measures of this kind, which were of ton great importance to he left to the unsupported efforts of any single individual. Sir H. PARNELL agreed with the Right Honour able Gentleman who spoke last, in all that he had said. and thought great obligations were doe to him for his exertions in bringing in this Bill. Ire was sure that when the matter was sifted to the bottom, it would be found that there was no force in the objec tions to the Bill. In the county which he had the honour to represent (Queen's Countyl the provis'ons of the Bill had. been carried into execution without aro: diflieultr. . Sir 0. HILL spoke in favonr of the Petition, and maintained the necessity of the amendments which the Petitioners required. He observed that the Peti tioners approved of many parts of the Bill. Mr. PEEL remarked, that the objections to the Bill had been made in a great degree by anticipas tion. If their really had been any adequate expert once of the Bill. the case would be different. But if the House was thus to hear objections to this Bill which h. beer. hardly tried, and to hear nothing of the defects which that Bill wits intended to correct, an erroneous impression must be produced. He shortly called the attention of the House to the abuses of the old system. It gave to certain individuals the power of levyin* taxes for certain purposes to an un limited extent. ro such length had the abuses gone, that at one time, within a rear, 1,000,0001. had thus been levied, when the fetal amount of the revenue of Ireland was only .1,000,0001.—(lIcsr, rrr.)—The. presentments under which these srans were raised, were hurried through the hands of the .fsdges of Assize in such a way, that it was calculated on one occasion, that so many. presentments Lad-received the fiat-of the Judge hi a short time, that the average time allowed for the cd:isideratiori of each was a mi nute and a half.—(hear, hear).—Then, there was no sufficient check on the application of the money thus raised. Of the misapplication of it many gross instances had come within his cos a observation._.lle thetefore begged the House not hastily to agree to the repeal of the Bill now in force, and above all, he hoped that nothing would induce them to return to the old system. Sir JOHN NEWPORT observed, that all the ob. jections which had been made to the Bill were merely applicable to its details, and none of them went to impeach the general principle of it. He pressed the truth of the observation of the Right Hon. Gentle. man who spoke last, that the Bill had not yet been fairly tried. Bat above all he deprecated any return to the old system. There might be some alteration necessary in certain provisions of the Bill, but he implored the House to adhere to the prim iple of it. Mr. C.t,LAGIIAN moved, that the Potiion he printed ; and gave notice that he intended to move for the appointment of a Committee to irq'iire into the present state of the Laws relative to G ran d Ju ries iu Ireland.—The Motion was agreed to. THE CRIMINAL LAW. Mr. VILBERFORCI: rose to pr.sent a Petition, to which he implored the attention of the House, not only on account of the importance of the subject, but also because of the character of the Petitioners. It was from certain Members of the Society of Friends. praying the House to proceed to the r: vision of the Laws on the Statute Book which impose the punish ment of death—(Hear, hear, hear.) In presenting this Petition, he could not but advert to the exem plary character of that class of persons from whom it came. He could never forget that they had been the first to call on the Parliament to put an end to the Slave Trade, at a time when it had attracted little of the general attention. It seemed of this So ciety, that they abjured all hostility only for the pur pose of waging a more vigorous war against every thing tending to injure their fellow-creatures (Hear, hear, hear.) The subject of this Petition was in itself most important ; and it was impossible to advert to it in this House without remembering the signal exer tions in behalf of humanity in th is pa r ti cu la r by a distinguished man who was now no more. Among all the obligations which humanity owed to that emi nent person, there was none greater than that due to his unwearied exertions for the reformation of our Criminal Code—(Hear, hear, hear.) He could not but hope that so good a cause would still find many 'supporters in this House. In truth, it was to be re gretted, that notwithstanding all that had been writ ten, and all that had been done, from the time of Mr. Howard, that so many of our most revolting laws remained unchanged ; it seemed as if a remedy was despaired of, although all experience potwed that many were attainable. The spirit of uncertainty in our Criminal Law had produced the most miserable consequences it had induced criminals of the more depraved class to a system of gambling on their lives. He remembered to have heard Judge Buller mention instances of the extent to which this horrible practice had been carried. He trusted that some one, whose acquaintance with the law would give effitienoy to his endeavours on this subject, would turn his atten tion to it. The effect of the two different systems of rigour, and of endeavouring to form the moral cha racter, were before us. It was an inhuman mistake to say that any Vender could be so depraved as to be beyond the appeal of all principles and motives: I The reformation of the Criminal Law was a;subject which had attracted the attention of Mr. Pitt, and if that great man had lived, it was his intention to have taken effectual steps to accomplish that great wor, k —(Hee r, hear.) The Petition from the Society of Friends, as Ihen tioned by Mr. WILBERFORCE!, was then received and read, and ordered to lie on the table. Sir. JAMES MACKINTOSH expressed his asto nishment that Ministers had not given any hint of their intentions or sentiments as to an alteration of the Penal Code, when his Honourable Friend had afforded them so fair an opportunity, by presenting the Petition from the Society of Friends. _ _ Lord CASTLEREAGH answered, that he was not aware that it was usual to call upon Ministers to make any declaration of their opinions, merely be cause a Petition upon a particular subject had been laid upon the table. The regular time for doing so seemed to be when any Member brought forward a Motion founded upon such a Petition; then the sub ject might be formally discussed. Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH added, that with this understanding, he should give notice of a Mo tion for this day three weeks oa the Criminal Laws of the country—(Hear, limn) ?Oen LAWS. Mr. STURGES BOURNE rose to move for the revival of the Committee on the Poor Laws. It was within the recollection of the House, that from the ktudablc labour and researches which the Commit Lee had made, services of the first iraportance to the community might be expected. Mr. S. Bourne then gave a kiwi of abstract of their proceedings. The Committee were well aware that it had to encoun ter many serious difficulties ; but he had no doubt but that every obstacle would be removed, and that I^9 far as the united wisdom and talents of such a Committee could accomplish, many benefits would be derived to the public: The present state of the Poor Laws claimed the immediate attention of Par- 1 1 Barnette. The deliberations of the Committee would go to check, if not to remedy, a great, a growing, and an alarming evil. If Parliament did net soon legislate some amendment of the laws, the distresses of the poet would increase with the difficultiet of the times. But the grievances which the Committee were called upon to redress did no:: bear %Ton the poor alone, but affected in an alarming degree every landholder. Pauperism had arrived to such an enor mous height, that the time might come, if not pre vented by the interposition of Parliament when the, landholder would be obliged to sacrifice the whole profits of the soil for the maintenance of the poor.— In recommending the immediate revival of the Com mittee, he • mattered himself with the personal aid and concurrence of an Honourable and Learned Gen tleman (Mr. Brougham) whose abilities would give weight to their deliberations. Should they even fail' to produce at once all the desired effect, the country' however would be satisfied, that no effort would be: wanting on this momentous occasion. After several l other remarks, Mr. Bourne moved for the revival of the same Committee fotmerly appointed to inquire into the state taf Poor Laws, and to report their opi: nions thereon. Mr. CUR EN rose, under the impression; he said, of considerable feelings of pain, as he felt him self called upon to oppose t'i' present Motion. He was against the re-appointment of the Committee. because lie was of opinion, that the House, from the voluminous Reports of former Committees, had a sufficiency of details before them. The business at present, he thought, was not to collect more details, hut to take an enlarged and general view of the sub ject•in its most extensive bearings, for the purposes of speedy and of legislation. And this could not be more effectually done by any persons than it could by the Government of the country, who had the whole informationfully within their reach. From the very nature of the system itself, it was manifest that the evils of the Poor Laws had been greatly in creased. And surely it did not require much saga city to see that those who are sure of being provided for at the expense of others. will not take much tmu ble in providing for themselves. Though there were early /nods of the demoralizing tendency of the sys tem. yet these proofs, and the evils to which they re lated, had been at least quadrupled within the last :25 years. Of this event, there were three great causes, viz. excessive taxation, a great depreciation of money, and a consequent rise in the prices of all the necessaries of life. To attempt to remove the evils of the present system of the Poor Laws. with out removing or lessening these three great evils. would be but a mere mockery of legislation. tHear.) As the Government had the whgle situation of the country before them, it was they that were called upon to act with energy in this business. - Within the last twenty-fire years, the prices of wages had increased only one-fourth, while the prices of the necessaries of life had increased one-third.—( Hear, hear ).—The taxes upon salt, leather, soap, and coals, were the heaviest burden on the shoulders of the labouring poor. What he had to pay on these accounts alone,' amounted to, at least, one-ninth of the labourer's . income. —(Hear, the House were anxious that the country Should preserve its proud situation. they should exert themselves to raise and better the condition of the working orders. Though he could not concur in the very flattering statements of the prosperity Of the country, which, he understood to have been made by the Noble Lord last night, he would say, that it was incumbent upon all, even from the Prince down to the lowest individual, to make considerable sacrifices in the present condition of the country. Instead of having decreased, the sum for the maintenance of the poor had been progressively increasing. And though the farmers complained that they were most heavily taxed for the maintenance of the poor, yet he must affirm, that they paid only no minally, whilst the payments came ultimately from the pockets of the great proprietors. Would it not' be better, at once, and directly, to lighten the bur dens on the people, and to place them upon real property ? He was persuaded, if the. present sys tem was allowed to continue, that the whole mass of the people would be ultimately pauperised.—(Hear). He acknowledged that the article potatoes was one of the greatest blessings which Pnovlnitecn had afforded to the poor, but he deprecated it as a staple national food, became it contributed so largely to the increase of population. The wh o l e p o li cy o f Administration as to the Nor Laws, was 'contracted and unjust. It recognized principles which, when they were acted On, produced the worat of coni c . quences. The pittance to each' individual vaho a: 4% the object of relief, was regulated according t o e,, e standard wants of the unmarried man. and the milt of this system he needed not then detail. He agree{ with the Noble Lord that ;t was better to employ people in some way or ether, if it were only in dig. ging day out of a ditch and th r o w i ng i t back agair than to leave them without employment, and cal.:. quently without any wages, But the c;suilties to which agricultural labourers were subject, had : , :c a always so peculiar, tiatt it became imperativ e r, 4 Parliament to take t..e:n under its protectira, discouragements to combination . met a-11h dredcd consent, because they more particularl applied to a class of labourers whose services could not be d: e pensed with, and therefore their caprices should l;e guarded against—he meant the manafactuling bourers— (hear, hear). But the agricaltural was excluded from all combination : he was tat , taut, too disconnected from all those lalla able to associate with kiln; and, at w‘a !;e r7a at the mercy of his master, who could easily 03 without him for many months in the year—(l!,.., hear, hear). There would be, therefore, great svi,. dote and justice in fixing the wages of the latter class of labourers. In those of manufacturers, it vial utterly impossible to make a standard, because the proprietor aas at all times to be goveraed by a, many foreign circuinstances in the payment of hi. men. The Bill introduced by the Hon. Gentleman .tea. tamed several clansa: worthy of approbation. Them was one law included in this Bill, to which he wished particularly to draw the attention of uL House, namely, the law relative to settlematr_ (Hear, Itar, ).ear.)—But in effect, what v.-a; the cb ject of the Bill after all Supposing ever :at cyciy thing it contemplated was put effectaally tion, still nothing would be gained. ft a... sides its other deficiencies, a most re: If :IS g namely, bastard. Ile would state, '7.'iTC2t fear contradiction, that out of 19 miniver, cf the er; . a... tion of the country, tie and a kit' were ha-lardt !- The total inadequacy of the law to protect the publ:c fund, as well as to provide redress to th.e ;n'ared Lies, amounted to a very cruel opir-eson. 1 - ae Cer mittee had now sat for two years, :tad the retelt their labours hits bten but very sliehtly felt as -yet.— Nothing, in short, could remedy the great evil whi•!l we complained 0", but the rernosail of an eaorna ; taxation-Hear, hear.)—The Committee were :...- coMpetent to produce any amelioration of Ila s ae grievances, because they bad not saffident power :a go to the root of them. They were unable to erigi. nate any measure of themselves, and their label'. ca this account must always prove aborsive. The gre3 and effectual alteratien ceald aloae ber made by those in whole power :t was to amend the finalae system of the country ; and unless they thought pr. , - per to come forward, and iaterfere to the nctes , a,y extent, all hope from any other measure, or any atlas quarter, was chimerical.--(Hear, hear.) I, lc 11CC, Lord CASTLEREAGII observed that, in his opi nion, die proposition of his Honourable Friend by no means led to a general discussion of the Poor Laws. (Hear, hear.) if those laws were to be circumstau contidered by the House, the proper time for such a discussion was when the Bill would be intro duced before Parliament--(Near.) It contained eight or nine clauses, embracing the whole important r un of the , Poor Laws, and when these should be pro pounded, a very fair opportunity opened for observa tion upon diem. lie heard the Honourable Gentle man who spoke last at all times with pleasure, bat he must say that the remarks which had fallen from him were calculated rather to give the House an idea that it was the Finance S y stem,' and licit the Poor Laws that became the subject of his consideration— (hear, hear.) If the Honourable Gentleman though: he discovered a plan of .amelioration, by removing the burtliens of taxation from one part of the com munity to the shoulders of another, it was a secret in political economy with which Ministers were totally unaequaisted, and before his Majesty's Government should be called upon to adopt the NOR. Gentleman's suggestion, it was but reasonable to expect thst be would communicate the charm bywhich it craild Le effected. Ministers ha-I not taken up the subject of the Poor Laws, and they were accused of supineness on that account:, but he (Lord Castlereagh) protested against such animadversions. Ministers were aIIX4Y.IS to avoid outrunning the Committee or the House. They apprehended, that if they originated any mea sures upon these questions, it would be less accept able to the country, merely because it might be looked upon as a boon ; whereas, having waited to identify themselves with the House, and taken only the part of individuals in any proposed measure, they would obviate all the jealousies and unpleasant feelings with which, as a Government measure, it might have been received--(Hear, hear.) The Com mittee had produced great improvement in the ge neral administration of the Poor Laws, althont: they found that it was impossible to make a more extended one, without involving an injury to rho personal rights which the poor might have esteer:23 as their unalienable property. It was unfair to st 7. gest that Government had been guilty of remissne , ;:. since, if their interference was required, the Come.' :- tee would not have failed to demand it—(llt . er. ke.: •.) With respect to the state of the country, he was luny' borne out by facts in the prosperous view he bad taken of it ; and the existence of distress among the poor was not to be considered as injuring the troth o. those statements, since it, could not be deniad that there never was a moment in the most brilliant pe riod of our history, when distress could not be found in some quarter or other—(Hcar.)--There never w 1; a country that so speedily emerged from depressica as this, altogether. ' The Committee were proceed ing.in their labours, and there was nothing that r:- perience, talent, and assiduity could atore, might not be expected from the Committee. Thy were formed of individuals whose characters for themselves, and among whom no party . was suffered to prevail—(Hear, hear.) t'lrt Mr. W. BURRELL stated, that in the Parish es West Grinstead, the proportion between the ability al the inhabitant, and the necessary supp7y for the poet, was oppressive in the extreme. A number of the bourers were employed at six-pence a day in the stone (patties ' and the de fi ciency was made up to them out of the Poor Fund. This state of things existed not only in this parish, but throughout Sii• .elf and its vicinity. The %lost ran of the young