Star. — London, England, 1802-12-28 00:00:00

into the full extent of the ineortvenienees com plained of, before they went the length of paffing an Ad to repeal the Statutes themfelves, which produced the allaged inconveniencies. His Lord -IMp obierved upon the Aa of the gth of Eliza beth, and laid he had reafon to believe that the' regulations of that A& relative to Apprentices, bad, by mutual agreement, been fettled between the Manufakfturers and their Journeymen. His Lordthipinlarged upon thefe topics, and concur red in the Motion of the Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolfack. Lord Pr LHAM owned that he felt a ccmflderable degree of conflitutional jcaloufy refpeding any Bill which, like the prefent, had for its object the fufpcntion of the exiling laws, and fo far agreed , with the Noble Earl near him' (Lord Carlifle) in what he had faid in preference to a Bill of Re peal, if, upon due enquiry, it fhould be made out, that the exifling Ilatutes relative to that very im portant branch of manufacture, the Woollen Ma nufadure, were produdiye of the inconveniencies complained of. He Rated the progrcfs of the Bill through the other Houfe, from what appeared in the Votes of that Houfe, then on their Lord(hips' table. He raid it originated in a petition from the Woollen Manufadurers; which was regularly pre fented, and ordered to lie on the table. That it was referred to a Committee, and upon their Re port) motion having been made, leave was given to bring in a Bill, and the Bill fo introduced was that then under their Lordfhip's confideration.— Wkh regard to the conduct of the inferior clays of workmen employed in the woollen manufacture, it was true that it had been extremely reproacha ble—not tnerely in Wiltfhire, but in Yorkfhire ) and the coherclothing counties. Something, there fore, was clearly neceffary to be done to enforce fubordinat ion and regularity among the workmen. In confequence of what bad fallen from the Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolfack, as well as from the two other Noble and Learned Lords near him, he had iro objection to the mode of proceed ing fuggellcd, viz. that of deferring the Committee till after the 'Reed's, and then deliberately to dif cut; it, and afcertain the fads afferted in the Bill, but he could not help repeating, that he felt a confiderable degree Of conftitutional jealoufy about Bills of that nature. The LORD CHANCILLOR left the Woolfack to ,explain. He faid, one affertion of fad on which • the principle of the Bill retied, be was already fuf ficiently infctmed of, and that was, that there was not caufe of complaint, of great inconvenience re. fulting from the regulations and enadments con tained in the 22 Ads of Parliament, which the Bill was to fufpend, but that many of tbofe regu lations were actually imptadicable, and the reafon v.hy he, as an individual, came to the knowledge of this was, that he had that very morning read through the 22 flatutes in queftion. The Bill was read a fecond time and committed to a Committee of the whole Houfe on the fira Tuefday after the Recefs. After waiting till near feven for the return of - the Navy Commiffioners' Bill from the Commons, -the Houfe adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Mr. SIMMER* having taken the Chair at half-pait diree,aßer Crone private bufanefs had been gone through, it was ordered that a New Writ be Med for the Election of a Member for the Borough of Harwich, in the room of John Robinfoo, Eta de ceded. Alto for Gatton, in the County of Sorry, in the room of one of the Returned Members, who, being chofea for two places, made his Election for the other. A Mefage was received from the Lards, returning tb this Houfe the lrilb Sugar Drawback Bounty Bill, and the kith Pro eilion Free Export and Import Bill; and lignifying their Lord fhips' agreement 'without any amendments. The Bill appointing certain Como:Whom:a for executing the Malt AEI, Winks Ad, fcc. was read a feesod time, and or dered to he committed on Tuefday, the tsth of February next. NAVY REUSE BILE.- • The ATTORNEY Gasseat. moved the Order of the Day for taking into coufideration the amend ments made in the Upper Houfe, upon the Navy Abufe Bill. The Amendments being read the firft time, The ATTnawit Gan aim. hid' that the Houfe being now in polleffion of what the Amendments made by their Lordfhips were ; and feeing, as be did, that fo far from changing the fpirit and ope ration of the Bill, they tended, in point of fth, rather to give it circa; he fhould not feel it ne cefFary to fay any thing farther than he had already expreffed; on the fubjea of the Bill Welt, but thould propofe, that this Houfe do adopt the Amendments, which he now moved might be read the fecond time. Mr. KINNAMD•roIe, not to repeat his former opini - ms on the Bill, which was not now by any means the fame to which he had on a former se c:if:on given his oppofition ; but, to congratulate the Houfe upon the falutary alterations it had un dergone in another Houfe. He was not now afraid that Minifters would refute to his. inexperience, - the communicating what meafure of neceffity could render this Bill naceffary, becaufe his objection to the mull obnoxious claufes had been done away ; and he would laugh to km+ the idea of unpopu laity, which might have attached to any oppofi tion towards a meafure which it was fo much the fafhion tb approve, fo long as his motives for that oppofition were founded on confcious reaitude, and a zealous regard to the Law and Conflitution of the country. Upon thefe points he was julli fied by the Amendments made in the Bill, under the {bade of a high and venerable authority—the firll in law, and certainly not the halt in judgment; and he did heartily agree with the Hop. and Learned Gentleman in the adoption of thofe Amendments. He did not °hied to there atm tions upon the fame principle as an Hibernian Gentleman, who Paid he was changed at-nurfe— for in this, not m was alledged in that ludicrous cafe, the change was for the better, and not for the worfe; and he was proud to find, that a prin ciple fo obnoxious titan Conflitution, as that of obliging men to codfeffums an oath for their own erimmation, had been expunged from this Bill. He had heard it was whifpered from high autho rity, that, not withflanding this falutary alteration, sins *nuld be found to wring add tuna from redinag i culprits thofe fetreti of theii pe: •••• - -•._ Such a declaration, he would fiy, was befitting no other Judge than a Jeffries ; and he was fure, would not, •at this time of day, be fupported by a Britifh Houle of Commons. Notwithflanding that, to the bill in its prefent shape, he would not give any oppofition, Rill he did not think it originally a neceffary meafure, as by the very Patent of the Admiralty and Navy Boards, ample powers were given them for examining witneffes upon oath, touching any end every matter and thing con cerning or connected with the Department of the Navy. That under thefe powers they had aged in former times, and particularly. in the ler ty to ; and in confequence of fuch inveftigation, a Mem ber of that Houfe, again ft whom charges of pe culation and fraud had been proved, was expelled from his feat. The powers of thofe Boards had not been lance abridged, but are as ample as ever; and if Gentlemen would look to the Report of the Committee of Finance, they would there find a recommendation, which, upon the avowed prin ciple of this bill itfelf, namely, public economy, was furely entitled to confideration. That Corn. mittee very jullly obferved, that the full number ofCommiflioners, which the occafions of war might render neceffary to the bufinefs of thole Boards; could not be fo in time of peace, and therefore recommended to the confideration of the Houfe, the prudence of reducing the number of thofe Commiffioners at the conclufion of peace, and thereby to effea to the \public a confiderable faving-; whereas the prefent bill, recommended as it was by the Admiralty Board, fo far from promoting public economy, by leffening the num ber of Commiffioners, already too numerous and expenfive, goes to the creation of a new Board of Commiffieners, with an enormous increafe of public expence. The Hom Member having thought it neceffary, he raid, to Rate thus much, to thew that the bill, even with all its falutary amend ments, was not in his mind a neceffary meafure, as ample powers for all its purpofes were already exifting in competent jurifdidions under the laws of the land, concluded without any Motion. Mr. I. Haweres Dimwits (poke atAmelength in fupport of the Bill, and coincided with the Aniendments. He praifed, in high terms, the Noble Lord at the Head of the Admiralty, whofe zeal for the fervice of his country was not more marked in thofe valorous achievements by which he had covered her with laurels, than in this new inftance of his earneftnefs to economize her re f..urces, and check the alarming growth of fraud and peculation In fo important abranch of the pub lic expenditure. Mr. ForraLanc Paid he was not prefent at the former difenffions on this Bill ; but having read it fince, and now heard its Amendments read, he mutt neverthelefs fay, that even yet it was not brought to that thape, in all points, to which he could give his cordial affent. There was one_point in particular, which would render the Bill ex tremely precarious towards many ignorant and un wary perfons, who, under the authority of the might be interrogated by the Commiffioners. For although the 'Bat as amended, only allowed the Comnuffioners to afk hes/ queftions ; and required not the perfon interrnitted, to give an anfwer to any queftionthat could tend to criminate himfelf, or render him infamous ; but the CoMmirsoners, though in all refpe&s men of high worth and re fpedability, yet not being men educated in the law, or acquainted by experience in the technica lity of legal queflionx, might in a dire& and un qualified way, put queftions to a perfon examined before them, not warranted by law, and which .a Rcfpondent, upon his oath, might feel himfelf bound to anfwer, though tending diredlir to his own crimination and mfamy • of which his igna ranee or embarraffment might render him wholly unawares ; and thus a man would be led, contrary to the avowed fpirit and purpofe of the Bill, to betray himfelf into the liability of profecution, and even capital punifhment, againft the fpirir of Bri tifh law, which fays, no man flail be obliged to accufe himfelf. This part of the Bill, therefore, he particularly objefted to. Mr. FRANKLYN, in anfwer to the arguments of the Hon. Member who (poke laf, Paid, that the objeCtion on which he fo particularly dwelt, if it was to be allowed any force, would apply as ftrong ly again ft the eflablifhed law of this land, and agamft the uniform praftice of every Court of Law and Janice in the kingdotn, as againft the prefent Bill ; inafmuch as it was the ufage of thofe Courts every day, to interrogate men upon their-oaths, and force them to confeffions of their own frauds. That, however, to which he wifhed more particu larly to apply himfelf on the prefent occafion, teas an expreffion which had fallen from th e Hon. fem ber who commenced this debate, in which he had compared the powers intended to be given to the Commiffioners under this Bill, by enabling them to enforce, if neceffary, confeffions of fraud fronrthe guilty, to the powers affumed by the Star Chan her. Before the Him. Menlber ventured to adopt a phrafe of this kind, or to affimilate an whole fome and neceffary authority for the detedion and prevention of fraud, to that tribunal, fo odious to a Britifh people, and repugnant to every principle of our Conattution, he ought to have refleited on the obvious tendency of fuch language in that Pub lic AfTembly, upon whofe proceedings the public eye was always'anzionfly chreded ; and the public mind but too apt, in many inaances, to mikoft (true or mikonceive • more efpecially if mifrepre tented by unfounded affertions, and unbecoming phrafes ufed by its own Members, and within its own walls. Where, he would Mk, was the feature of ftmilitude to be traced between the powers ea" Board of Commiffioners,conftituted and authorifed by Parliament to enquire into, deted, and check, a'public and flagitious fyftem of fraud, not by pu nifbment, which they were not empowered to in- Rid, but by reporting to that Houk the refult of their enquiries, and leaving it for that Houle to (uggeft a remedy ; and a tribunal unknown to the Conti itution,, and unauthorifed- by Parliament, at fuming powers to extort confelfion,, and to inflid terrible pains and penalties? It • was not their powers of enquiry which rendered them to-formi dable, but the heavy fines and puniftnnent they nf fume to impede. He was ready to admiktbeprin _ were eminently in the habits of obliging Men, not indeed to acknowledge themfelves guilty of felo. nies, but to difclofe their frauds. The Britifh Courts knew the fpirir of the adage, and they ap plied it in its true meaning, but not according to the conftrudion of the Hon. Gentleman. But that any thing like Parliamentary or Conaitutional jealoufy could arife upon the proceeding of a Board of Enquiry, inflituted by Parliament itfelf, and authorized to do nothing more than merely to en quire into fads, and to report the refnit of fuch enquiry to Parliament, was to him utterly unin telligible. The Hon. Gentleman had argued, that the powers already vetted in the Admiralty and Navy Boards, were amply fufficient for all the purpofes avowed in this Bill ; and therefore that it was *holly unneceffary. But did the Hon. Mem- ber recoiled that the condud of thofe boards them-, (elves was to be fubjel to the controul and invef tigation of thetommiffioners appointed - by this Bill ; that refpontibility might be extended-to every department, the h'igh as well as the low, and error and mifconduCt checked wherever it thould appear to reft ? Would the Hon. Gentleman with a thing ' fo abfurd, as that the Admiralty and Navy Boards thould be the only judges to inveftigate and con troul their own condud ? With a fpirit and fenti. ment infinitely more Honourable, thofe Boards had folicited the prefent Bill ; and fo far were they from withing to thrink from invetligation and con troul, that they courted both. It was the duty of, Parliament to infped, with a vigilant eye, the whole machine of the State, and to corral error wherever it was found ; and it was of the very effence of the jurifdittion, conveyed by this Bill, that it gave power merely to enquire, but by no means tcronvid or punifh. With refped to the amendments made by the Lords in the prefent Bill, it was not his with to oppofe them ; on the contrary, he would give them his cordial affent, knowing as he did by the terms of the Bill, that if the powers it conveyed in its - amended form, thould be found inadequate to the purpofes of checking the frauds and abufes to which it was di reded, the Houfe had the power of amending the Bill at any time within the Seffion, and arming the Commiffioners with fuch additional authorities, as effeetually to reach and cruth the evils complain ed of ; and in any powers which Parliament thould think proper to convey to thole Commiffioners, he had no fears for the flight& abut": or injuftice at N • • their hancts, The ATTORARY Galizzat. would not have thought it neceffary to refume the debate upon a Bill, already fo amply and repeatedly difcuffed, had it not been for what. had fallen in the courfe of this night from an Hon, and Learned Friend Of 1 his (Mr. Fontblanc), who,had he been prefent on the former diftuffions which had taken place, would have known that this was not the Rage molt proper for his obkrvations. For his own part, the principal difficulty he thould feel in re; concilins . the friends of the Bill, who had fup ported it in its original form, to the amendments ft received in another Houfe, would be, to con vince them that the fpirit of the Bil Twas not in jured or defeated by thofe amendments, or its purpofes rendered ingatory. He, however, did not think the amendment in anywife likely to de feat the objects of the Bill, relying that the powers Rill conveyed by it to the Commitfioners would be *dual ; but . if not and that Rill their enquiries were defeated, the Houfe, as his Hon. Friend near ' hint juftly obferied, would have an opportunity, at any time in'the condi of the Seffion, of amend ing the Bill, and fupplyiag . any powers, in which experienee thould prove it inefficient for its great. objeds, _namely, to deted and check frauds, rather more With a view to prevent them for the future, than to punifh the pail. Upon the reprefentation of the Commiffioners to tMs purpofe, the Houfe would form its judgment as to the neceffity of en larging. their powers, with the aid of granting indemnity to thole who thould acknowledge their own guilt, in difclofing that of their •accomplices, fo as to remove all impediments to the full difco very of the truth. With . Zifped to the objeftion of his Hon. and Learned' Friend, that no man thould be liable to inteirtigation, the anfweis to which might criminate hinifelf, he wo u ld ebfers'e, that it was the ordinary pradice of every Court of Jultice to put queftions to men, the anfwers to which m i g h t tent, to criminate themfelves'; with this fair caution? however, that they were not bound to anfwer qiießions of that tendency.— Neverthelefs, if after fuch fair precaution, men chufe to acknowledge their crimes, they were cer tainly liable to have their confeffiens taken down, and profecutions direded againft them, at any time afterwards, for felonies acknowledged in fuch a way 4 4 nor could* he conceive any great grievance arifing to fociety from the predicament in which fuch men chofe to place themfelves. The Commiffioners in the prefect cafe Would form only a Court of Enquiry, without powers to convict or punifh. He did not with to give them gratui count,' or unneeeffarily, the power to extort from men, upon their oaths, confeffions of their own guilt. He would rather the obje&s of the Bill, (-which was to prevent future, rather than to pu nith pall tranfgreffions) could be effected without filch ; power ; but if it thould appear uecetFary, he-would give it without reludance. To the ar guments of an Hon. Member who opened the de bate (Mr. Sinnaird), as they were directed not againft the amendments, but aria the Bill alto gether, the ample difcuffion which the fubjed had before received, made it unnecelary for him to reply on that ground ; nor did he exped to find Inch arguments again revived. Lie had. only to übferve, that the Admiralty Board did not before pads any thing nearly fo eatenfive ai the powers conveyed by this Bill, which -not only gave con tronl over the Admiralty and Navy Boards them aloes, but over Prize Agents too, which lei was a favourite principle, not only in the generajfenfe of the . Houfe, but acceptable to many wbrthy charnders in the country at large. •. Lord Gi.anasev az fupported the Amendments. Mr. A7IEIIOOII rofe to claim the indulgence of the .fionfe, in a few words of 'reply to an ezpref fion which had fallen from the Hon. Member who opened this debate, in alluding to the expiation of and peculation, in confegnenee of the report or a. Committee of Enquiry ; an allufion fo pointediv direlled to his own cafe, that be could not pafs it by without noticing, that the Committee in that cafe had declared his -condua to be highly merito rious. The Hon. Member was proceeding, but was called to order by Mr. Speaker, on the ground of irrelevancy. Mr. KIN NAIILD explained, by affuring the Blurt:: that he meant no allufion whatever to the Hon. Member, but to an expulfion which' took place In 1710, as Rated on the Journals. Mr. WILBERFORCE fpoke at confiderable length in commendation of the Bill, and of that Go vernment who had fo honourably brought it for ward ; becaufe fuch a teflimony of fcrutinous vigilance to the economical expenditur e of the public money, could not fail to attach public con fidence to that Government, to excite chearfut acquiefcence it' the payment of public taxes, thus fairly and fcrupuloufly applied to public fervices, and to enhance the attachment of the people fill more to our happy Conflitution ; but he could not fupprefs nis apprehenfions, that the Bill loft too much of.its original force and efficiency, under the amendments it received in another place, enabling men to decline anfwering the quP,ftio n , of the Commiflioners, under their own difcretion. ary conftruftion, of the privilege to refufe anfwcr. in g queflions tending to their own criminaticn or difgrace. This he feared would go in a very great degree to render the Bill totally nuzatopy, by in. clueing a reciprocal fyftem of evafion amongft all the furpeded and the guilty, for the exculpation of each other. He was glad, however, to find the -Houle had a power, by the Bill, to extend the authorities of the Commiflioners, fhould they find themfelves impeded in their invefligation. BREACH OF FRIVILEa. Mr. SHERIDAN rofe, and faid, that he had fun in the Public Prints a Paper, figned by five Noble Peers, which he thought a high infringement of the privileges of the Houfe ; he therefore gave notice that he fhould, immediately after the rectfi, make a motion'on the fubjea.—Adjourned. LONDON. TUESDAY, DECEMBER HOLT IntroctNTs.—lfoliday at all the Pubiic Offices. DUBLIN, Diesaasia 13.—Srock Exctia::or. Gov. Deb. 31 per Cent. 83 . 1 6 per Cent. Grand Canal Loan, Gov. Deb. 4 per Cent. 90 = dated 1797,10 z s per Cent. 99 99+ Ditto, 1798, 3 per Cent. Stock 991 ReTil Canal Stock S4i COURSt 07 LXCUANGZ. Dublin on London, Dec: 23 _ xof k on•'on.on Dublin, Dec. 17 telfaft on London, Dcc. at &lfaft on Dublin, Ditto - Dace:dna 24. . 6 per Cent. Grand Canal Loan, dated .1797, 162 6 per Cent. Royal CatialLoan, . 94i I 2 7I 4 61 days. Bank Stock Gov. Deb. st per Cent. Cent. Gov. Deb. 9pf Ditto Stock, s per Cent. 991 cotrust or tzonANor. Ddblin on London, Dec. 2z : London on Dublin , Dec- z 7 - Belfaft on London, Den. ar Beth& on Dublin; Ditto . :of tot - 41 6t 7 daps. We have received letteri from Gibraltar which we fubjoin. It mul occafion concern to our Readers to learn that his Royal Highnefs the Duke of Ksyr has been much indifpofed with rheuma tiftn. We hope our next accounts will inform us of his perfee relloration to health. GIBRALTAR, NOV. 30. Yefterday the THAMES frigate, commanded by Captain Hou.Es, arrived here from Sir RICHARD Bic K sarox's fquadron, after a 'mir a g e of fix weeks. At the time the THaius failed, Sir RICHARD, with four fail of the limp was at the rendezvous, in the: ifland of Sardinia, waiting for the five fail of the line iroutthis, which-had not then joined him.— PrevioUe to the failing of the THAMES, the GREY ' HOUND frigate had arrived from Toulon, wberc the had been fent to examine the preparations making by the Trench, which, however, did not appear to be then very confiderable, or to be car• rigid on with any attivity, only five fail of the line , being ready for tea. But by letters from Malaga, we are informed, that the Conttellation, American frigate, had juft arrived from Toulon, after a than paffage, and that the French were then arming every thing they could with the utmolt activity in that port. The Captain of the Conftellation faid, That he had been treated, with much greater civility and attention by the French than formerly, and that they feem now to with to conciliate the friendfhip of the Americano Nothing more probable, if they intend going to war with us ! The ST. FIOItANZO and CYNTHIA both failed yefterday; and the THAAISS proceeds to Portf mouth the firft fair wind. His Royal Highnefs the Governor has been confined for fome days, with a fevere attack of the rheumatifm, which he is fuppofed to haNe: caught from remaining too long with wet clothcs as he never fpares himfelf on any occafion, and no weather ever prevents his attending the parade daily, when in health. The rains have continued with great violencc of late. DICEMBER 2. Yefterday a large French fhip of the line pall'el this to the eaftward about mid-day. The Spaniard s havenow two firit rates, and eight other (hips of the line in commifGon in the Mediterranean. The late Royal nuptials is the ollenfible eaufe ; but lets formidable force might have ferved as a coo• Toy againit the 13arbary*ates, between Barcelo:'.! ~~ . A man al t nly thing vevance rely as we learn Ft ifelaareni gthat r F ar is, he has t o leave that Zoom. - grotti this t h e o riginal t h e y have 1 - 1 prefent to a C_;overnmenl *Balls and Cirps are yr 18th inft. th, Ball, at wh t h er e, toget many perfor This An tor London. The twat Lord Ms to dinbi!rgh. We uncle' Corps will g !nand of Li" u *ppointed Lady Bui party on Sa Square. Lord and Bft Saturday eaconsfielc The Earl the holidays The Cou morrow on Mrs._ Stu tVednelday was crowdei Scots Was pe Mr. Beac nights ago engagement toot, who rummer, an( of his talent, On Satur( an clef:ant Regiment, in honour of The folio; plaufe : The King, al The Qiieen. The Prince c His Royal II His Majelly' Colonel Mat The Hon• Cc Lieutenant •C The 01Ems After war tosigia Ru 4 f G•prnhagen, On Tuef toured a de( of Suffix ar CEoLOB Li after a chac lets than t.w only Gentle axa and MI The repo C gt. A n T s tLos.c b s e fßed to this given in a y " Refpe4 ceived here lately circa and Well I •rtsoLte to cede the and Guafta "A Spa burgh, and that the G whom he i! received or to give u,p troops off him the ael the Spanift I:I/MOVE who rentic ?°" 11 , fey acres am( ly in garde During fervice, his pear tree, with fruit Pointed it found that nefs of a rt idle perfon ft) deep as was within from the t. As there for the tee tal incifiui bough to equal fucc he ordered an old peal without 6 the trunk i ' Per extra ~l _ ~