Star. — London, England, 1815-02-24 00:00:00

. . h e be told, that aviculture ahoulil 'he %aft to ibel dunce of a free trade, when every other bra nc h war protected .agaittst toreign.conspetition t On woollens, t i t e duty was 100 per cent. ; on cottons, 4185 10s.; c m glass, of every kind, £114; brass. and copper, ma nufactored, £59 7s. 6d.; earthen-ware, ifl79 fls. 4d. • d r essed leather,..£l42 ; plate, £ 80; if g il t , £B9 ; w i t h long list of other duties, with which he would not Tro uble the House. He bad heard it said, that these prohibitory duties were proofs of a bad system; and .1 Gentlemen would not add to it by interfering v uh this important branch. It did, however, ap „ear, that it had been interfered with—those laws f a d been repealed which placed agriculture on an' qiul footing, in point of protection, with manufac cures—this was found to have had a bad effect—and cis not just, under these circumstances, to say to agricultural interest , s we will not place you where before were—you may struggle thruagh your as you can." As soon as the Hrnourable Member sat down, tllert.. was a loud cry of Horner ! Horner! Mr. HORNER (amid loud cheering) was anxious to rut the Committee in possession of that opinion which he certainly had formed very early in the dis ussion of the subject, but which he had endeavoured to correct by subsequent arguments, and by his own . -!search. The Honourable and Learned Member roLounced a warm eulogium on the Honourable mover of the resolutions (Mr. F. Robinson), who a d e;ewed the question in a more advantageous light :Ilan any of its advocates, and had laid down the • rt i nc ipie of a free trade which was never to be in -I:inged upon, except where some actual necessity old be shown. This principle, therefore, being ac. nowledged and aJopted, he did not see why the op ; users of the measure should be taunted with the tames of theorists and political economists, titles v:llich his Honourable And Learned Friend appeared Insious to disclaim ; but it should be recollected ;lose epithets had been applied by one who had avail llimselt of all the advahtages of the title when he 1.1.1 paradoxes to support, which, according to his own statement only, appeared to be truths ; to poll. •;c.il economists, who, of course, were then pointed out the chat ness of their lac tildes and the depth of their reSe.il Ch ; but were they to be condemned for reason. ing—tor teasoning falsely they might, but surely not ;or merely reasoning. It did not well become per ' Dns to call them theorists who had advanced such taenties as that the price of labour had nothing to d o 'vial the price or provisions, and that the price of corn could not be affected by the price of land—(Hear) those persons; one of whorl) had put a copy ot Mira. 4au's principles of taption into his hand, a transla. •:on n', doubt made by that 'Hod. Member. Those, .owever, who advocated the - Resolutions would do wed, before they spread suds theories, to consider that blirabeau's system.wwit prog sal to abolish all taxes, and place the wholii wer t in a single tax upon land—(Hear, hear.). His .Hun. Friend had spoken rather lightly of Dr. Adam Smith; it never had been held that the principles of .that philosopher were oliginal—tbey 'trete rather a digest of all the apinions then held by the greatest philosophers of Iris own country and of others, and his book had been recommended by the greatest practical statesmen of this country. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman hen went into an examination of the arguments of the last speaker, and endeavoured to refute them. Ile maintained, that if the whole of the protecting Julies were to be removed from the articles of foreign - nanulacture, it could not afford any advantage to he lgricultur;st. The fact was, that with the ex ception of one article, the British manufacturer could supply it cheaper, and that one article (linen) he v i sposcd the advocates of the resolution were not anxious to be brought iato market free of any incum brilce. The whole of those duties were national disadvantages, and the measure under discussion prrs2J to a.id a similar disadvantage to the most Imp:mint of our national commodities, land t thend v of the propos-1 measure justified it by neces sity, but in his opitsion none of the argumentsor state mc;:ts of its supporters had made the necessi y apparent. L.::: measure had been a temporary one, to remedy a :•.inporary evil, he should hive had more difficulty it, than now, when it was proposed to make it a permanent principle of policy. The cir c^ar.tanc:s of the country had given of late a st:ma. lu, to agriculture, and great and extensive speculations head b.•en nutted into. Naw those circutostaiices ceas-d to exist ; the case was changed ; this had de tailed the recent extraordinary profits of agriculture, and a considerable loss had been sustained; this might form a very good reason for a temporary, but' st fcr a permanent measure—but the firmer had been disclaimed by all parties. lr.land had suffered more fri,n, this change than even England; but this arose from her having had, in a higher deA'rer, the artifi cial advantages of. which be had spoken—those ad vantazes bad ceased, and Ireland had lost in propos . , too to her late gains. No' one felt- more lot' the prosperity of Ireland than himself, but this tempo rary evil he considered as a pledge of future prospe "' becat.se it shessed the imp; ovemtuts, and the spaautity of capital which had of late been invested in agriculture. • Gentlemen smiled at this, but such 1 ‘ .411 t he farts and he w ould venture to assert, that the p.m : was the first that ever affected the Prosperity of irtiand,( near, hear.) The next disadvantage which it was said would arise only if the measure passed, was, that light lands, lihjoh could only grow corn when it was at- a high puce, would be abandoned, and a gnat loss of capi ta would ensue ; but if, as had been stated, the effect N Ilte measure wou!d be to lower the price of corn, ti v. le evil would be produced whether the Resolutions :re adopted or not. This evil would 21110 take r4ce if as much care and capital were applied to the :1 1 1 , l ' i l e land of flastid as it deserved ; yet !f any one ii.)? advance this as a reason for not cultivating a r !" , lands, the idea would be scouted. The nest Ivrunid assumed was, that the Resolutions would rett. d_ornt country independent of a foreign supply of n i this, if i t was really the case, would be the 7...,',7fr.e . 5t reason for adopting th e p ropose d measure ; he adopted the two principles assumed by A. Smith,; nd aidiasitte.i that nationaldefence and national . 311 „ . 4 hitence formed good grounds . lor a departure from usc g r Cat pr inciple 01 free trade, he would vote for the awdsure if it could be proved that this e nsure wod render the country ind e • Aleut of foreignpply, I• 4111 wat believe that Pu gth a sniau impqrS could ler nay In timei ma terially a ff ect t h e tw i ce h i the mar a tad. the importation s was large ' which he did . 'flee believ e less ever ilk* to be the rift, t tout(' not' rentertrtheuth.erounnntreye d was • Wepeen t • On foreign sup.; plies. • not at great exporting. country, and the greatest part of the grain recently . received had come from comities which would pro bably remain our friends ; from Holland, as an cm; porium of the grant of other countries; •and from Belgium, 'Where there was a prince of our creating, And from the Baltic. If Franeirwese to-become an exporting country, it would be a :proof of ber po verty ; no rich country was ever an exporting coun try. The poor export and the rich purchase ; they purchase the raw material, and pay for it in fiaished manufactures. The importation from .Filenoe . vois casual; this year, in consequence of die abundance of the late harvest; and in 1810, from the accumu lation of the crops of two or three years. The agri. tulture in France was bad ; the quantity of ground in tillage was great, but it was net very fertile. We never could be dependant on France for a supply of corn, while the Baltic and the Rhine poured forth their stores ; and our resources of foreign grain could not be cut off but by a union . of the whole world against us, a thing which was possible, because it had happened, but which was not probable. But : supposing this to be the case, and so wild a project ass destroying our commerce should ever enter into the head of a powerful despot—as it were for the .purpose of illustrating an extreme case, experience had taught us that such a plan which had been tried from 1810 to 1812, had been found impratticable, - and those had been the years of. the greatest im-. fort:Won known, and more especially from France. --(Hear, luar.) —Agriculture had flourished most, during periods of importation. The only remaining ground to be examined was, whether the proposed resolutions would produce a steady price? There was no such guarantee for/ a steady price, as assur ing the corn-factor that he might, in a case of ne cessity, purchase as much foreign corn as he pleased. The price of corn had fluctuated more after the cons mencement of the French Revolution than during the last 7 years, which had been years of great importation. the three objects of the measure were, first, to relieve. the British farmers; secondly, to render the nation independent of foreign supply • and thirdly, to keep the price of corn steady. Acr d he believed it would not effect any one of those objects. The measure would do no good : it was next to be enquired, wile. ther it would not produce evil . ? lie was aware of the importance of agriculture, the first interest of the State, and also of commerce, and he knew how they operated oft each other. He could not sit down without making some remarks on the probable effects of the system proposed upon the agricultural la bourer, upon the manufacture, and the finances of the country. He would ask whether or not this was a time to enhance the expense of producing our ma nufactures, which raising the price of bread would do ? England had certainly advantages over the other nations in her manufactures—those great ad vantages were capital and skill, but they were not completely domiciled here, and he would warn the House not to do any thing that would give wings to those advantages, to make them fly to other coun tries. On the other head he went into some length, lamented the moral condition of the agricultural la bourer, attributed the chief evil to the poor laws, and said that by paying a part of the wages of labour by the poor rates, the peasantry were reduced from the condition of free labourers to that of bond slavery and villainage.—(Near, hear, hear.)—On the head of finance the Honourable Gentleman pointed out great difficulties, and said, that as the Government had been borrowing a great deal of depreciated - and arti ficial money at high rates, it would be almost impos sible to pay die interest of that debt, when money returned, with other property, to its real value.-- The man who could look such comp' cared evils in the face calmly, had stron ' -er nerves dian'he posses sed. He thought it would be wisest to do nothing in the present case; but if any thing was done, he did not think it necessary to protect the fittnel.. Mr. HUSKISSON argued in support of the ori ginal recoltitions at great length. l ie began by vin dicating the accuracy of the evidence coutained in the report, as well as the intelligence an.-1 respectabi lity of the witnesses examined. The calculaum of the Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Baring) that the, grower had a houtuy a £18,000,000 from the con sumer, he argued to be not onlyeraggerated but pre posterous, And contended, that the consequence, deed t , e,almost declared result of iris plan would be to drive all the landholders from the metropolis, by deducting from their rentals a sum of £32,000.000. He could easily prove that this caltulation of £18,000,000 from the consumer to the grower was wholly mistaken, but for the sake of argument be would admit sit to be correct, and apply the same ma d_ of reasoning to the situation of the manufac ture'. Foreign MAlltitactures were excluded from this country to_ protect our own. if they were per mitted to be imported, would it not produce an enor mous reduction of price; a sum at least equal to that calculated by die Honourable 'Gentleman, and this was the amount, according to his own reasoning, which the agriculturist craw paid to protect the MA. nulacturer.—(Loud eria of hear, hear.) He made this assertion, not to produce beat or delusion in the pub lic mind, or excite jealousy between the different ranks of society, but solely to prove the fallacy of the Honourable Gentleman's (Mr. Baring) calculation : , upon the converse of the question,,-(litat, hear.) The proposition attempted to be proved by the Ha nourable Gentleman, that corn might be had at forty five shillings, if no law existed against importation, was equally fallacious. It was founded upon the datum, that earn might be imported at forty-five shillings. This teas refuted by actual experience. 11 importation could keep down the price, how did it. happen that during the last ten years the price had risen higher than at any former period, though the quantity imported has been considerably greaten+. This proved that importation was not sufficient to limp down the price. Mdcli stress had been laid, and justly laid, on tile Misfit have of distressing us; but it appeared to him, that though it was beyond their cosstroul to in fiune errs, eour importations yet that we should secure to e ourselves an independent supply tir4 c The minot onwe i rs u li ti th a; Continent can distress us, or troul. It -they ea can, we secu r o e t a dis -s t u re Pig sa yuatheluesr tiottheitdialcrealon. bat been suffe re clear that we should en c o ura g e d in respect to co t rn he c gr it 4p er w a th s s equ whi all c i was completely subject be out *Wa "O a " lb . . . • l'neeessity of a -mime of reVer wo o be 'AI, too 'elear, to require proof or illustratiou-••-(Rwir, hear.) Nothing was more notorious than the distresses of the Landholders; and not only of the Landholders,' but. consequently of the great mass of agricultural la-. bowers. Thus the great spring of action which in. creased capital by putting it in motion, was relaxed, and capital, on the other hand, reacted upon spirit of exertion, by giving to it new energy and ex., tension. Upan his owe knowledge he could state, that the conduct of the farmers as a body, was must liberal, humane, and public spirited. He knew in a 'district with which he was particularly acquainted, the extent to which they supported public schools, and other useful and benevolent institutions. A panic existed amongst them, which it was necessary the House should allay. He reminded Gentlemen who Oppased this measure, of the absolute prohibition of the exportation of coarse wool, though it was certain it might be had much more cheaply manufactured abroad ; and it was asserted from a communication made to him on the subject, that persons engaged in the manufacture of iron, were anxious fur a protection against iron imported from Sweden. England was such a country, that even sacrifices should be made to render her, as far as possible, independent of the nations of the Continent.— It was particularly the interest of England to lo .k to the state of Ireland, and protect her agriculture.— The produce of Ireland was under due controul of ;he Legislature, beyond any of time. casualties which attend.our relations with the Continent. We could not tell at what moment our manufactures) might be excluded from the Cuntinent ; but in Ireland we were always sure of meeting with a demand fur Clem proportioned to her resources, which we had it in our power to protect and improve. But what was our Situation in respect to Fr.lac• ? Ii 4 had harve.t 1.1-red in France and in Eng! Ind at the Same time, we not only lost one of car foreign sources of sup ply, but we had a powerful competitor in the torei . ,4ll market. What would be our condition, depend.nit upon foreign supply at the breaking out Of a war, with an increas:d taxation, and a reduced demand our manufactures ? Cheapness of I.rovisions, he ar gued, would produce a dimunitinn of a-gricultural la bour, and idleness land combina:ions among la bouring multeacturers. if the growers were pro tected, the capital already laid out upon lan I would be lost. Capital so applied was incapable of being as in other instances, withdrawn. Cheapness, with. put a demand for labour, was a symptom of distress. This country had capital with..lit cheapness—France had cheapness without capital, a symptom not of prosperity, but of decay. An lion. Gentiemaa who spoke on the preceding evening had indulged in sonic observations upon the greater luxury in-which our farmers now lived, and lamen!ed that they sometimes preferred a bottle of wine to a mug of ale. For his own part, he thought the change extremely natural ; and that it was the necessary consequence of im proved skill, and enlarged profits. Had not the same effects taken place in the commercial world ? vid not our merchants now think at desirable to exchange the City for the squares at the west end oftown ; and instead of dining at one or two o'clock with their clerks, as their forefathers did, were they not now to be seen sitting down so a table profuse in its v.triety ofoilsbes, at sax and *even ? (Hear, hear, hear.) But lie (fir. H.) did not complain that it was so.— He honoured the industry, and gloried in the success which occasion-A it—(Hear, hear) ; and though the comparison might appear invidious, he was driven into it by the equally invidious comparison made by the Honourable Geialeman. From the whole of the evidence which had been gives before both Houses of Pailiameut, it was clear, in his opinion, that less than 80s. as a protecting price, would not remunerate the farmer; but that at that price he would be remu nerated, it properly protected. Nor did he at ail anticipate the-dangers which seemed to be apprehen ded, that because fits. were fixed as the protecting price, corn could never be at a less price, as the ex perience of the last century abundantly proved that the market price of corn was frequently, nay, almost always, below the protecting price. In behalf of the 'I agriculturist, in behalf of the manufacturer, in brhalt of the public creditor, in behalf of the whole com- Murky, he recommended the adoption of his Right Honourable Friend's proposition. Mr. Rosa and Mr. Husgassotf severally explained. Mr. BARING then said, he observed there was some opposition to his amendment, making the mea sure remain in force 4 , for a time limited," and not wishing to give the House snore trouble than neces• sary, lie should withdraw it. The amendment WAS accordingly withdrawn. Considerable discussion then ensued on that part of the resolution, fixing the average price of wheat at 80s. • Mr. CALCRAFT,wished to know if any obser vation was to be made to the House, on the subject of the average price of wheat, fixed in the Resolu tion at SW. Sir M. W. RIDLEY said, he understood that the • average would ultimately be less than bus. ; there fore he moved, 4 , that the protecting price of WileaL should be 761. instead of 80s !" Mr. F. LEWIS observed, that not one word had yet been said respecting the average. No notice had been given on that subject, and it was necessary to know what was to be done. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, the average of eighty shillings had been calcu lated from the best returns. yet be admitted it was subject to correction. He conceived if it was subject to correction, some reduction would be the conse quence, and probably it might not be more than seventy-sis shillings. However, if the reAution passed with eighty, that price might be atterwards made rather more consistent. The Right Hon. Geu tieman here took occasion to thank those Members who had so ably contested the subject, and to observe, qua this resolution had been most liberally supported, particularly by a Right Hon. Gentleman opposite ( Mr. Poneonby) ; who as firmly supported the views of Government on this occasion as he had opposed them on many others. He then observed on the pro. priety of protecting the growers of corn, while almost every species of capital was secured on the most ad vantageous principles. Mn. RUSE wished to knew what was to be done on the question of average, and whether it was to be understood that it had been taken from the maritime districts us England, Melodist& the principality of Wales The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER answered in the negative. Mr. ROSE then said. the average was fallacious. 'rhe experiment adopted on this occasion was tried in, 1791, and found defective. Toe CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER cliti, the calculatsun of the average had been made byti.e Board of Trade from the best returns. Mr. BARING said, the uncertainty of the average produced a new question, namely, whether the ave. rage should or not be altered t He conceived that it WAS a question of considerable importance, which could not be hurried, and under that impres,iol, the hour being late, he moved-44 That the Committee do adjourn." Mr. ROBINSON expressed some dlubt whether the question of adjournment could be entertaMe.f. On the subject of average he was disposed to recom mend 80s. That amount was better, with the co;:- venience of reducing it, than 755. without it. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCI - lEQUZI had no disposition to oppose adjournment, 0 it u- • the wish of the House.— ( Cry of ND, no, Go Mr. BARING, adverting to the orderly s::.irtrln in which the subject had been entertained, cod, lie should certainly persist in his moti. , n if the usual as. gularity did not prevail in the proce.:dings. Mr. F. Lewis, Alderman ATKINS, olr. the CUANCILLOA of the EXCHEQUER, and Mr. \V tux - imam), continued a conversation respecting the pro• priety of adjournment, to give an opportunity of pro. curing better information on the subject. Sir MATTHEW W. RIDLEY, understarni:ng that 765. was likely to be the price resulting from z'Ae calculation of 80s. declined pressing his motion. Mr. HUSICISSON recommended the Cointnittee not to enter into the sit'aject. It was clear, Ile %%id, the public would understand, that the :node of t tkine the average at 80s. would benefit the contit mer. Mr. PItOTH E ROE understandin^ , that the Hun. Baronet bad withdrawn his mmtion tor fixing the price at 765. took the liberty of proposing that pi ire himself. He accordingly moved to that effect. The question of Adjoitraracnt being first to be clic. p^sed of, was put, the House divided, and the Gal lery was cleared. The Conan tee continued in debate above an hour, during the whole of which time strangers were ex cluded. The mrtion for adjlurnment was negatived without a division; alter the Comm:me decided on Mr. PHOCIIEItoE'S Amendment, fur making the price at 76s—Ayes 65—Noes VO9—M nity against tha Amendment U. The price of 80s. (as in the original regulation) was then agreed to, and the other Resolutions hcing carried, the Douse adjourned at Four' o'CLocis is the Morning. CORN LAWS. Yesterday there was a meeting of the Livery of London, at Guildhall, to take into consideration the propriety of petitioning both Houses of Parliant:i.t, upon the proposed alteration in the Corn Laws, now under consideration in the House of Commons. At one o'clock the LORD MAYOR took the chair, amidst the loudest acclamations. His Lordship pro ceeded to address the Assembly. He said he had conceived it to be his bounden duty to call toget:rer. the Livery and Corporation of London, for the pur pose of submitting to their consideration what was now passing in Parliament, relative to the Corn Laws of the Kingdom. He viewed, with heart-felt u:iea• siness, the intended prohibition of foreign wheat, ea. less the price of corn shall be advanced to Vs. tit: quarter. If that nseasure shoul.l unfortunately be carried, he did not hesitate to affirm, that the price of the quartern loaf, composed of such flour as it nnw converted into London bread, must inevitab:y be increased to the calamitous price of 16d. and 18!.. (Hear, hear).—Seeing such an attempt made, and that by the House of Commons, to fix such a maxi• mule or atirsimuns, as the exorbitant one propos,fd, fi e felt it would be a feeling unworthy of his high situa tion, and a complete dereliction of his duty, it he had riot called them thus together.= (Hear, and applause). In fact, he considered he would have acted uticons:i. tutionally, had he over-looked the threatened evil— an evil which was directed not only against his fellow. citizens, but the community at large ! —(Hear, hear). He did not wish to attribute improper or unjust mo tives to any set of men, or to oppose the interests M agriculture, against those of commerce, but it was highly necessary, on his part, to point out the mis chievous proposition in question, from whatever quar ter it came; and to warn his felow-citizeus against the certain effects of the measure, if carried into a w—(Lood amlaueer).—The country, for a period of 2& years, had patiently borne the burdens of sn expensive war, and these burdens had fallen, in a great degree, upon the middling and laborious classes' of the community. Was the country, then, rtprrr the return of peace, again to suffer new priva tions and distress ? (Hear, hear.)—Were the blcs "sings of peace to be unaccompanied with its conse quences, and the bounty of Providence to be con vcrted into calamity and starvation ?—(Hear.)—No ; he trusted that such pernicious evils would be arrested and prevented. The population of tl:e country was 12 millions of souls : of this population the Landed Interest, who are the great supporters of the measure, formed a twentieth part ! And w.is it to be endureJ, that they were to force this obnoxious measure upon the whole country ?—(Hear, hear.) —Were they to fix a maximum or minimum of corn for such a pope. latb'n, to the certain injury and ruin of the latter, fur their own, as certain advantage and ? (Hear, hear).—The attempt must bc resist.sl by the great body of the pecyle ; and thoe i ,h it was a tria• lification for Members of Parliament to swear 014 were landed proprietors ; yet he trusted the great pro portion of the community would notquietly suffer 'lisle interests to to be thus valued at certain rate, by the one twentieth part of the people. (Hear, and applautes). Having thus stated on this, as well as on a format. occasion, the objects for which he had thought it his duty to convene the Corporation and his fellow Citi. zens together, upon constitutional . grounds ; he had only to recommend to the assembly, firmness in their proceedings, andtemper indiscussion.—Lordapplaw, which eotainaed for several minute: 1 Mr. WAITHMAN said, it was already known be had brought forward motions and petitions upon this sub ject last year. He now repeated his firm conviction, not only of the impoliey of the measure, but of iti rui nous coasequesces, if paned bit() a la*. The' land-