Star. — London, England, 1824-02-17 00:00:00

oi ten; but itlarat ifillvelt the Usit Aleiperateofort the s mugglers in that put to defend their unlawful oc cu pation against the erteeeathinentt of the preventive o rrice. It was very true that Captain M'Culloch had bis whole heart in the success, of the sytteen, of which be was the contriver, and that his duties were of a very we i g hty kind, his command reaching in extent from Chichester, westward, to the Isle of Sheppey, eastward. °fe t e additional force now asked for, 630 seamen were t o be &e lated under the superintendence and direction of t h at o tr. The narrownessof the Channel in this di vision made the running of spirits more easy than in ot her Oates. But he could safely say, that the greater pan of the smuggling now carried on took place with out the limits of the coast blockade. He admitted that the high duties en spirits, rendered necessary by the large amount of tales which must of necessity be raised, offered a great inducement for smuggling, and therefore the preventive service naturally operated less effectively on those patts of the coast which offered most facilities fur the introduction of spirits. • . Colette' DAVIES doubted the last proposition of the gallant Officer, that the amount of taxes cony be ottg mented by such enormous duties on foreign slairits, and if the proper mode of augmentation woul d not be con siderably to reduce the duties, 'Which would also enable them to get rid of that thost expensive system of coast blockide. By returns for which he had moved in the last-Session, it appeared that the expense was no less than . Boo,oool. in the collection of that branch of the Revenue only. It washis intention, before long, to shew how the .Revenue might be benefitted and the esta blishment :educed by the adoption of a mote reasons e policy. It was in vain to look for the exti iction "bf smuggling to the preventive service. Tho e who vio lated the laws 14 the introduction of contraband goods had no immoral intentions—iconsequently - there was no ditect dread of ignominy in the punishments which they had to fear. There was nothing in the laws so prolific of crime (the laws concerning poachers al A ays excepted), as the laws which went to the prevention of smuggling. As to the interests of the Revenue, he pledged_ himself on a future day to prove that they were materially and constantly injured by the continuance of the present very high duties. Mr. HUME was not satisfied with the view of any addition to the navy, nor did he like the mode in which the accounts are laid before the House. It was impos sible to choose any method in which mischief wortld be more likely to arise, than the combining of the pietten tire service with the regular means•of defence for the country. The House was kept from knowing the limits of either branch•of the service; and if it were not so, it was next to impossible to asceftain the expense of collecting the revenue, and, consequently, they were without the power of deliberating upon the propriety of keeping up particular kinds of duties; they were pro ceeding altogether upon an erroneous principle. For merly the naval estimates were kept entirely distinct ' front the charges for collecting the revenue. the naval officers on the different stations were at hand, and fre quently assisted iu the caption of smugglers. It was ro advantage to the chatactei of English seamen to be identified with the collectors of the leventie—it would rather lower, than improve them. They would be anxious, for the sake of the additional pay and the milder kind of discipline, to get into that line of the service. He wished that the estimates hod continued to set out, as had been done up to last year, what force and ex penses were wanted for the defence arid protection of the country, and what for the prevention of smuggling. He had moved for returns which would be of great use in elucidating the preventive system,os they would thew how far the reduction of duties in Scotland and Ireland had tended to the dec t ease of smuggling on those coasts. Bat what necessity could there be for 29,000 men this year ? He remembered very well that alslobletord, now no more, had held out hopes, in 1817 and 1818, that they were to have the Nice) , reduced to the limits of its establishment in 1792, at which tithe andbehire it did not exceed 16,000 or 17,000. That Nobleman jus tified the continuance of the then establishthent by the state of the wbrld, which was net settled dovrn into that permanent and unquestionable tranquillity which they had good reason to expect. • Setae then all the tneasutes which he and his coadjutors had in hand were colt pleted. Netter teat the state of the world More entirely settled and at rest: The war was at aft end in Spain. The An:etican President had set at test all questions respecting the independence of the South American Co ionieo Thanks to him, and not to us: his iilawly beim viour had done that which the dastardly fear of speaking out to the Potentates of Europe had hindered us from doing. This might be eatery good ground of complaint between Spin and the United States, but there was no thin in it to require an increase of the naval force, we having resolved at all hazards not to go to war. He ad mitted, with Ministers, that the proper interests of the country should induce them to cultivate peace.— Then, if they had any reasons to apprehend war (though he doubted the general value' of the information which they received), let them speak out and tell the country exactly what was to be expected. There ought to be some good reason assigned for the pi esent augmentation., The navy of England, both in ships and men, exceeded the navies of all the other Powers. %That was wanted with more? They ought not to be voted, unless iti could be shewn that there was imminent danger. To render the miry efficient, however, _much more was ne-j cessary besides men. There were defects in the whole' of the arrangements of the naval service, which were inimical to its strength and welfare. Ho* citertte it, then, in a time of profound peace, the Captains of the few , sops which were commissioned, found a arificulty in making up the complements of their event? be-; Leled that the reason would be found in the late regulations rhich had crept into the rules of the ser vice. The class - of Officeis now employed was not, !hied up from the old, +rained, and experienced Offi-i tos. The late promotions seemed to hate been taken• upon a better principle. But'would the Ylouse ;he navy to go on as i t was t it pre s ent conducted? i 0 come to the radical defect : formerly it was the pride PI the service that the son of any miii,'hirieeeferltewhis; condition or rank, Might; by entering into 'the niary,i "izoi to himself a sure way to the highest honours ofl the profession ; and this facility of advlincement in the 'e'vjee used to be vauntingly contettited with the naval services of France or Spain, in 'Wlii,:h no one could hope for a command, except he were a Cadet of some branch of the Royal Family, or was at least dis tinguished by his armorial quarterings. To this dif ference wits attributed, and with 'great truth., too, the Peat superiority of the English over any other navy. fileheld i n hi s h an d au O r de r i n C ounc il, dated 19th i anuary, 1803, which prohibited all persons holding i.arr ants , including Masters, from paSSing examination a% persons eligible tor promotion in the direcaline of the -"ice. The only exception to this Order -Was the' schoolmaster; whts.was sum - te• know lees of nautical affairs than any other officer, and was therefore less fit for that promotion which was secured to him knd ditied to others whose experience and qualifications were un questionable. The House must recollect the admission made by Lord liosire, that he owed his victory to the 'skill of the Master of his ship more than to his own.-.- Why should so valuable a class of officers be excluded from promotion? Whrshouldthere - be any more bar to it than to the promotion of serjeants in the army, many of whom bad advanced them - selves by their merit to great honours and distinction? Let this be done away, and then naval people of all ranks would readily flock to the standard whenever the service of. the country re quired it. Whatever number of men were needed, let the:. be perfectly satisfied, and theii the navy would always be efficient.. He considered the system of im pressment as an intolerable grievance, and. only equalled by the terrible system of discidline which gave unfledged boys the power of flogging veterans without the inter vention of a Court Martial, the natural and certain meani of protecting the service front abuse. Upon the whole he could see no_ reason for augmenting the naval force ; .and unless he heard sortie better reason than had been advanced, he 'would persist in dividing the House upon an Amendment which he would now submit— that instead of 29,000 men, the number 2:;,000, should be substituted in . the vote. Sir G. CLERK said, that as to the period of 1817 4 to which allusion had been made by the Hon. Gentle man, there was no time in which the Hon. Gentlemen opposite had been more united in their objections against Ministers for reducing the.navy to what-they considered too low and inefficient a. sian.lar d. The Hon. Member had inserted that no reason was given for the increase of thenaval force, except the coast blockade. He must have been unfortunate in trying to make himself under stood, or the Hon. Member would have known what he meant by the reference which he had made to the un settled state of the Spani-h American and the British West India Colonies, and the inconveniences to which the disturbed relations between Spain and her colonies had given rise in the western seas. It was impos;ible for so formidable a Power as Great Britain to allow the quarrels arising between infei for belligerents to inter rupt her merchandise in the other hemisphere; and as large a force as the whole of the addition now asked; would be less than was _required to restrain the petty piracies within the-West India s e as. The difficulty of getting men for the ships, he was happy to inform the lion. Member, was only imaginary; no ship had suf. fere,j any considerable delay on that account. As to the impressment, which bound men to the service for life, the Hon. Member must be ignorant of the regulation which limited the period of service in time of peace to three years. When the exigencies of state required it, men must be compelled to serve in the. navy even by force. In referring to the Orders in Council, the Hon.- Member had neglected to quote a very important et. ception, which opened the line of promotion to Masters who should distinguish themselves. The fact was, that , no class of naval Officers was so valuable as the Masters, and therefore all that could be dime in the fair regula tions of the servile, was done to retain them in their si tuations, but this was not without duly warning them, drat is accepting the Master's warrant, they excluded themselves from the direct line of promotion. The rules of the Invite gave as much facility to a foremast-man td advance himself as ever. As to unfledged boys enjoying too much power the service, the present' re gulations did away all groundi for any such complaint. No Midshipman could pass for Lieutenant, unless he Were 19 years of age ; and no Officer could obtain a Captain's comminion, unless he had served two years as Lieutenant. This was all that he thought it necessary to say at present. If the Hon Member chose to make the other matters of his speech the subject of a specific mo tion, of course he was at liberty 'so to do; but after the triumphant answer which had been given to him in ere course of last Session by his gallant friend behind him (Sir G. Cockburn), it was not very likely that he would return to the attack—(Cheers film the Ministerial side.)i Mr. R. BkRNAL said, that if those cheers were - to signalize the triumph of the gallant Officer - over his Hots. Friend (Mr. Htime), that opinion was allowable for those who thought with the gallant Officer; but if they went beyond that, and presumed that the House or the service were satisfied, he could assure them, from the little eiperience he had had, that no speech could be more unsatisfactory to those who, were chiefly inte tested ; the Officers of the Navy. He was aware that the present regulations - prevented raw boys from the indis creettaercise of power as commanders in a greater de gree than before, and he believed that the condition was a- thousand times better than ever it had been; but still there was much to correct, especiallk in regard'. to the principle upon which appointments were at present ob tained. He could not, however, altogether agree with his Hon. Friend (Mr. Hume) that there was no 'cause of dead, and no reason for any alteration in our' naval equipments, arising from the unsettled circumstances of the world. On the 'contrary, it appeared to him, that the political horizon all round the globe was full of signs and indications of approaching danger. He was therefore - willing to leave the naval preparations of the country to the discretion of Ministers, as he had all his life through approached that subject with the greatest delicacy and caution. Sir GEORGE COCKBURN would not appeal to either of the Hon. Members to know whether the speech which he had the honour of making to the House in the course of last Session was satisfa6tory or not to the Officers in the service. There were several able-and ex perienced Officers in the House; if they were prepared Its say that there etas anything in the remarks which he n made which was 'disagreeable to 'the service gene rally, let them get up and assert it manfully. Be him self-was intimate with some Officers of the service, and probably ' , had -artich tirperience to guide him, as to 'the general'opinion of what he then said, as either of the Hon. Members. What he had then advanced, he now repeated, that while the road of promotion was kept open to merit , and enterprise, however obscure the station and origin of the parties, the navy would feel no jealousy whatever at'seeing persons of rank 'and con dition promoted among them ; they were of use wher ever-they were placed ; they were of use to the , Navy ; they were of great use in that tiouse—(Loud . cheers' roin:the Opposition benches.) The ships were as capable and the Officers, he would contend, were more capable, than at ail former period. There was a mischievous practice of those good old -times to which the Hon. Member alluded, which now existed do longer, of boy s in their mothers' drawing-rooms being put on a ship 's books, and thus serving their time without ever being at sea; and it was in the memory of many persons, that in the American war, we had Post-captains of 17 years of age; but now 'no *man could be made post till he was of proper•Oge. Then it was in power of an Admiral to make his son or his nephew a Lieutenant at 16 or lryears of age; but now there *eta pointed and difficult examination 40 go through, and if the candi date was not sufficiently skilled in navigation to sail the skip without the assistance of the Master, he could not be made a Lieutenant. With regard to the Mastei s, of the impediments to whose promotion the Hon. Member complained, it was to be observed, that no other Officer could become so at once ; a Lieutenant could not be made, nor Pursers or Surgeons attain their respective make, with Out going through the previous steps in the loyal Navy ; but a Master, if he had sailed in a mer chant ship and was competent, might be tnade a Master at once ; and on that account it was, thought but jest that to that rank he should be rdstricted, unless he dis tinguished himself. With respect to discipline, the Hon. Member should pot mislead the House by assert ing that boys might flog the men ; that power was in the hands of the Captain only; and as it was a power necessary, the House would see that it could not be lodged in more proper hands. Sir F. OMMANNEY defended the vote proposed and expressed his intention of voting for it. Captain MABERLY said, that when we were assured by his Majesty's speech that our foreign 'Anions were never in a more pacific state, and when it was apparent that the late Spanish colonies of South America could not be reconotieted by the mother country without foreign assistance, he could not see with what face any Honourable Gentlemen could justify the augmentation propo-ed on that ground. An Honourable ME USER under the gallery declared, 'that South America was the place which peculiarly re iiuired an additional farce. Mr. FIUME said, he had heard nothing to justify the augmentation, if a proper distribution of the existing fbrce wet ,e made. The gallant O ffi cer (Sir George Cockburn) had argued as if it were the examination of Officers which impeded the promotion. Certainly, if the Officer were not competent, he ought not to be pro moted, but the Order in Council did not hold that lan guage !it said, that no Master should be eligible to be examined for promotion. The speech which the gallant Officer delivered last year, was certainly calculated to create dissatisfaction in the breast of every Officer in the navy; and from every communication which he (Mr.' Hornell:tad had with Officers, it appeared to have pro duced that effect, and surely nothing elk could have, been expected from the gallant Officer's declaration that the soils of Noblemen and Gentlemen were, as of course,l to be promoted after serving their Jime—(No, no, from' the Ministerial benches.) That, at least, was his un derstanding of the gallant Officer's speech. If he (Sir George Cockburn) had then said nothing but what he had now said, he (Mr. Hume) would not have found fault with it. With-regard to the proposed augmenta tion, he took the speech of his Majesty to be true, and that this country never had abetter prospect of the con tinuance of peace : it was impossible, therefore, for him (Mr. Hume) to see any reason for an increase of our naval force. Sir GEORGE COCKBURN said, there never was a more bold misrepresentation than that which the Ho nourable Member for Aberdeen had made of his (Sir George Cockburn's) speech of last session.; It was im possible for any one to suppose that he could have said that the son of every Nobleman sad man of fortune should be made directly he had served his time ; he was in the recollection of the House, and on that he would rest, for he should be ashamed if it were necessary to discuss the point. All his argument was, that provided proper atteritiun was paid to merit and services, the Navy did not feel jealous that a proportion of Noblemen should belong to their profession. Mr. Sect etary CANNING rose.—l well remember the debate of last Session, and the opinions which my Ho nourable friend ( Sir George Cockburn) expressed in the course of it. Of the opinions lie then expressed, there has been in the course of this evening much misiepiesen tion. My Honourable Friend did not say that in this fine ccuertry, merit and talent should give way to birth and fortune, and that the !atter should have as is were an eXiclusire preference. The opinions which ht ex pressed, and in which I concurred and followed - him, amounted to nothing like such a proposition. The senti ments that I professed thetr,l profess and maintain now. I am clearly of opiniot that it is the mixture of service and merit with rank and fortune that maintains the respect ability dr the British Navy. Ltt not birth or rank have an undue preference over stin and talent, but let it be attended to as far as is consistent with the reward due to snerit , --.(Hear, hear.) This is a principle and re gelation to which the Navy themselees will look with out personal grudging or individual jealousy. It would not merely be my intention to undervalue that indivi dual reputation which depended on self-created merit, but my object would be to enhance it by uniting it with those hereditary claims of sank and birth, the combined association of which voriStitotes the greatness of the British name. It should be remerribered, that persons who are born to affluence, who may live at home in luxury and ease, will not leave their Come,' unless. from the prospect of great reward ; they will not undergo hardship with the same readiness as those who are obliged •by necessity to do so: it is therefore desirable that every encourageniergt,consistent with the due appre ciation of skill and service, should be held oot to them. Besides, one of the greatest rewards to those v. ho dis tinguished themselves in their country's service, was, to 'raise them to the rank and level of those •who were dis tinguished by rank and ennobled by -birth. It was, in [truth, the introduction of men of rank into the naval service, that 'made the British Navy ndt • only the pro fession oflmen of skill and talent, but also the 'proles si6n of gentlemen— ( Henn hear.) It is true that this country was- never'before so :iterated, in which it Might look with greater. confidence to the continuance of a long peace.: but although peace was to be expected,we were not to beaithout the apprehension of great agita cibn. In any agitation that might arise, it would be incumbent on this country to Maintain, not only its in dependence, 'but its nautical superiority over the other 'nations of Borope---(Fienr, hear.) There were three districts towards which it was now incumbent on this country to direct its particular attention. The Medi terranean, the West Indies, n d South America—(•Hear.) In any interference which this country may be called upon toadopt, in 'reference to either of these important clistticts,"it was neoessary• not only to display a strong hand, but also to evince great promptitude and great vigour- , —(liertr.) Under such circumstances, it was the duty Of this Country, to be not only equal, but superior to any foreign tritionin the world. It would be n:rces ,sary that such a naval force should be kept-up, as that by their neighbourhood, a line of communication should be preserved, and the ships might be brought, if litecessary,into ready cb-operation. When such impor !cant objects were to be attained, and when the great in terest this country posbused in'epholdiug its prowess at j .. sea was considered,.GentleMen ought rather to winder at the smallness of the present vote, ifthich, so far from going beyottd the necessity of the State, should not be so low as now proposed; which, were it licit for the - - great confidence we entertained in a long and pi otrac. ed peace, would he otherwise insufficient—(Hear, Irar ) Mr. HUMP. expressed hi; intention not to :iv ±e the Committee.—The aruendm€iit was then put, and nega tived without a division, and the original e:rl titian— For granting £885,950 for wages for 29,000 men was agreed to. The following resolutions were then agreed to: • £584,350 for Victuals, at the rate of £l. l le. a man per month. .C 282,750 for Wear r.nd Tear. £94,000 for Ordnance for the sea sertice. Sir GEORGE CLERK now proposed to move the ordinary estimates. Mr. HUME had not had an opportunity of looking to the e:ti-nate;, and put it to the Honourable Baronet whether it would be fair to press them forward now? .Sir GEORGE CLERK cnoranCed to ppstpone them. The Resolutions were then agreed to, anti the Re port ordered to be brought up on Wednesday next. On the motion of Mr. Goutannor, the Committee on the Irish Law Couits• Bill was postponed to Wednesday. RESIDENCE OF TIIE IRISH CLERGY. Mr. GOULBURN rose to move fin leave to bring in a Bill to compel, as far as was posSible, the Resideirce of the Clergy of Ireland upon their Benefices. He did' not think it -necessary upon this occasion to detain the House very long, by explaining the pat ticulars of the measure which he proposed. No one ould deny that the residence of the Clergy was in all countries benefi cial to the inhabitants; it was obvious that the practice was still more necessary in Ireland, because the greater the difficulties under which that country laboured, the more requisite was it that a vigilant attention should be paid to the wants of its inhabitants. There was another point of view in which the residence of the Irish Clergy seemed no less important; not only were they called upon to perform the offices of religion, but in con sequence of the absence of the Gentry, other duties de volved upon them, and they were required to minister to other than the spiritual wants of the people. 'The object of the Bill he meant to introduce was to effect this. In some cases he was aware the residence must be dispensed with. These were, either when the incumbents were compelled to reside on other parts of their benefices, or where the infirmities of nature caused their absence.' Ile proposed to limit these cases to such as were strictly unavoidable, and to take came that an adequate ptovision should always be made for the administration of the inc(sm bent's duties. By an adequate provision, he not only meant persons who should be duly qualified by their moral character and acquirements, to be Ministers of religion, but that their stipends should be suitable to the rank they would hold, and the duties they would be expected to perform.. .le would, therefore, shortly state to the House, that the form d the Bill would be in most . reveal similar to the existing law on the same subject in England : it would considerably narrow the grounds upon which a plea of exemption could be allowed, and provide that the stipends of the curates should be pro portioned to the value of the benefices, and to the ex tent of the population under their csre. The House would, therefore, probably excuse him from stating seriatim the several pr °visions of the Bill, and he thought he should best consult its convenience by moving fot leave to bring in a Bill to consolidate and amend the laws relating to the' residence of spiritual persons on their benefices; to restrain such persons from engaging in trade or merchandise; and to provide for the stipen diary curates in Ireland. Sir J. NEWPORT expressed his readiness to concur • in any measure which should be calculated to carry into effect the object of the Right Honourable Gentle men, and he thought the best means of accomplishing that object would he by preventing the beneficed Clergy from Jiolding pluralities. There were instances in which Clergymen, already holding five or sir; and even tea • benefices, had obtained faculties by o hich they weie permitted to unite to those benefices three or four more parishes. By a reference to the kiescopai returns, it would be found among others that. Lord Viscount Clif ford, in the Deanery of Armagh, held four parishes, in which duty was performed, and that lie was in posses sion of 388 acres of glebe ; he held also four other parishes, and in right of them 297 acres of glebe; but in these latter parishes no duty was pe, formed. There was also another living in another dioce.s, consisting of five parishes, in none of which there was a glebe house, although there were 240 acres of glebe land. In the diocess of Clogher, there was enjoyed, in right of a living, 1,300 acres of glebe land, though no glebe house; and in that of Meath, five vicarages, containing 2,600 acres, were la the same situation. The. only way, he thought, of procuring the residence of the Clergy, would ize by doing away with these monstrous _plura lities, as he would call them. The law, as it stood upon the Irish statute-book, prevented the Bishops, who Were inclined to do so from dissolving these unions. 'the ktiihorof Cloyne had publicly expressed his regret that he was prevented from doing so by the Act of the 21st of Geo. 11. which forbids such dissolutions, that the value of ecclesiastical dignities might not be diminished. Mr. HUME expressed his fear that no good could be done while the present system lasted. Until the over grown incomes-which 'Were at present enjoyed by indi viduals w ho did nothing should- be reduced one-fourth, he must consider such measures as that now proposed to be little better than patching up the inconvenience. Mr. DAWSON deprecated any attempt to interfere with the church pi operty of Ireland, and bore testimony to the valuable services of the clergy of that country. Colonel TRENCH shortly supported the motion.. Mr. BIJTTERWOR.TII Was most anxious that some measure of the kind shotr'xl be carried into effect. The number of unions was, in his opinion, most injurious to the welfare of the Protestant Church iu Ireland. He knew that many Protestants had becomeßoman Catholics, in consequence of not having the benefit of the religious advice and assistance of Protestant Clergymen. He was convinced that the .number and extent of the unions were a-cause of the dereliction of their duty by the Clergymen. - From a, tour -which he had made last summer in Ireland, he Was at once surprised and pleased to witness the greatest improvement in the conduct and demeanour of the Clergy; they took an active part in the educaion of the people, and in the superin tendence of schook ; they also made ample distribu tions from their private incomes to relieve and al leviate the wants.of the people. These facts he had ascertained with eqUal surprise and gratifieation, and he was bound to bear testimony to the improvement of the clergy. Ile would repeat his anxiety for the diusinn tion of the number Af the unions, and if this could be. done without inte:fering with the state of the Church, be was confident it would confer the greatest benefit upon the public". Mr. GOULBURN said, that with regardio th el,- \ 40 • . 1; • t ... 1 1 t It I • 1 . : 5 1 .: I t .' 4 : 4 i i ' I 1 4 1 • A 1 1. I, i I . • l' . 13, ( l if 1 1 4„,. ..'. ~ . ~ , • ! .. ' . i t , . ~... , . / , , , 1 , . i 1 , !. 1 ,i ' , .. , i I i , , 1 . . , 1 ~ ..... If * ' . : 14 . 0 '‘,.. ,i s 1 I .' • - % i',4 . 1 nterfere stimony untry. at some t. The trious to • id. He i. atholics, eligious He was unions by the ide last pleased uct and ye part super in- listribu- and al t. - he had , and he at of the • ould be Church, benefit the eb- •