Star. — London, England, 1818-02-24 00:00:00

COllll work eleven . or twelve, • hatever nu— er of hours they chose. But it was se with those upon streams. There were many se that could rot u•ork except when the water ;ho e (hear, hear,) --and if they were limited i,e-eleenier7P resc ribed by the Bill, they would be s hred. in fact. useless , which was , very strong for the consid era tion of the House. The real. ri ds fur the Bi ll, it should be observed, did not proceedings of 1816, but in a from any of the mea sure upon other evid ence. But he would t hat 'whatever evidence was brought up in the Le ts of persons from the country, w h en that evi rse fell upon the characters of people not present, is lord that they could nbt be heard in their own , That method of taking evidence was a , of underhand mode of proceeding—(hear, hear.) by le , means alluded to any part of the conduct ble Baronet: he was speaking of th e - sea the 11 ,•; ri zs u o ra f the production of that kind of evi jE vas such evidence as he was not at all pan ty lle should not oppose the Bill in its present a s the Honourable Baronet had professed his of g iving ample time for consideration. li r . PHILLIPS said, that some objections which b e enerade to the bill, had been stated not with a ie w of throwing it out, but with a wi s h to have e v e obviated, The Honourable Baronet had been ( „ cfn esi in manufactories,. and had himself a sots l l e t t he business, and therefore his interest was still crat . with manufactories. There was a bill for es m at i ng the law concerning apprenti ce s , which, . .e e ever, still left an advantage on the part of some l isctorics, there being some which took apprentices s el some which did not take them. It might be of impietance to the House to know .; the nature of some e i the examination s t hat had ta k en p l ace. I n roomof the examination of witnesses, he had been sired to ask a person if he had cause d to be inserted .1 the newspapers a statement respecting the reduc tion of the supply of hands. The person had de nied having caused any such document to be in serted, though he had afterwards been obli g ed pub licly to confess it. The Honourable Member then proceeded to prove, that in .. _ Manchester, and other D arts, the number of persons in infirmaries, &c. ,con ceded with manufactories, was comparatively very snail; and that when other portions of the popula ion were distressed, the persons belonging to facto ter had materially contributed to their relief. the Honourable Member then proceeded to read a letter f-om Dr. Henri, who expressed an opinion that spin sing factories, if well re-plated, .were not more un hulthy than other factories; and as to contagious. fevers, it was not .consistent with his experience, that, more persons came into the infirmary from the cotton nanufactenes than from other places. The subject of this bill, said the Honourable Member, was very important, and he hoped that the House would pay great attention to it. If they interfered with the re gulation cotton factories, and limited the hours of working in them, would not men front other p'.. es come forward, and say, " We worklonger and re les:" As to limiting ,the age to nine years, he observed, that in, all the well-conducted factories, so children of a younger age were employed.- -But the subject of this Bill was worthy of the more serious consideration of the House, when they viewed i: as tending to affect, in a very alarming degree, the. le:leas of our foreign trade. It was fell known, fen great exports were made hi this branch of our elmeuic industry, but he felt persuaded that they could be very considerably eliminisise4,if PArliarnent should think proper to interfere avid/ the.retsdafilon cf our factories in. the way ivlalclrthe I, ono Anitlior of the Bill proposed, At present,:the hews'. cf working in such factories - an the Continent were fully as long and as unlimited as in Englapdt and cer rivals abroad had been.heard to Fay, .that.if our , Legislature would only limit the hours of working,or tax the Exports, it would do them a great deal more service than any regulations that could •be adopted by their own Governments—(hear, hear.)—This mea riri had produced a great sensation in Lancashire, and he warned the House to consider the consequences which might arise from entertaining it. Would not the spirit of Luddism extend throughout tht whole, country? That spirit was less active now, but was not extinct. For his own part, after all_the conside ration which he had been able to.bestow on the sub-. ?et, he was decidedly. of opinion, that a proposal more injurious in all its consequences, Vieth domestic and foreign, could not possibly have been made.— Formerly, a very considerable portion, of the work in'these factories was conducted by children alone ; but the case was now altered, and persons of a supe rior age were employed. The number of' children engaged in working had been much reduced, and, with respect to night-work, Mr. Arkyvright, whose authority could not fail to have great weight with fee House, had declared that night-work was very rarely practised. For these reasons, he felt it his dee, to object to the second reading of this Bill. Mr. DAVENPORT said, that he was a Member of the Committee who were appointed to inquire into t:-is subject in the year 1816 ; and lie thought that the Legislature ought not to interfere without the most serious deliberation. He did not wish to give aey opinion on the question in its present state ; but he trusted that the House would not proceed with any indiscreet haste. If the Bill was founded on the Report of the Committee, it might be desirable to .:,.r the opinions of the different Members who had elended most closely to the investigation of this reisser ; if it was founded on the Petition which had ttee recently presented, it might be proper to in wre the truth of its allegations, with a view to a• - e-:ain whether the Petitioners might not have 7. , ked tor the adoption of a measure which would be rt. injurious than beneficial to their interests. r. PEEL thought that the best course of pro ceelieg would be to suffer the Bill to be read a second :sire. and then go to a Committee for the purpose of le s eing the blanks•filled up, and to leav e t h e further eetession till after the recess. This would obviat e chiection made by his Honourable Friend who j ue sat down as to any indiscreet haste. The ciect of the regulation must depend on the minimum age of the children that were employed in ttesi factories, and the number of hours during u..lth they were to work. In his view of the subject, it was very difficult to pronounce an opinion on the zerits of the iiill, till the blanks had been filled up. the l'^eel, however, that no opposition would be the second reading, upon the promise of the tr ii. Dill, that, after the blanks were filipd up, no further proceedings should be taken at pre sent. • As to the propriety of entertaining the subject, he must observe, that not only on account of the age. of the persons employed, but also on account of the nature of the cotton factories, this could hardly be called free labour. A child must' either withhold himself from all employment, or submit to the task of working during a certain ,number of hours.— It was not for the House to determine what the number of well-conducted mills was, but to legis-. late in such a manner as should regulate the course of proceeding in all such concerns. The Noble Lord (Lascelles) had said, that he did not think this Bill proceeded on the Report of the Committee, but on some evidence that had been subsequently ob tained from the country. If this were the fact, there was no difficulty in stating what the nature of that evidence was. He (Mr. Peel) then held it in his hand, and any Gentleman might, if he wished, have a copy of it. It proceeded from persons-of great respectabi lity and experience, and who were capable of form ing an accurate judgment of the consequences of labour on the health and constitution of children.— The firs of them, Mr. Simmons, a surgeon of great eminence in London, stated positively, that personal observation had convinced him that the hours of em ployment in the Cotton Factories were too long for human beings of so tender an age to endure. Two other Gentlemen, the Rector of St. John's, Manches ter, and an Inspector of the Sunday Schools, were decidedly of opinion that the long hours of labour and confinement were extremely prejudicial to the health of such persons. The Honourable Member (Mr. Phillips) did not seem to attach much impor tance to the Petition which had been presented from the parents of these children ; but he (Mr. Peel) could not help thinking that this arose from the circum stance of the Hon. Member not being influenced by the same feelings which the Petitioners entertained. They had expressed a wish that the Legislature should interfere for the protection of their children ; and stated that they were obliged to allow them to work for an unlimited time, or submit to the misfortune of not having them employed at all. It was obvious, then, that the parents themselves had no discretion or contronl in the business, and that the Legislature *alone could regulate the management of these Fac• tories—(Hear, hear). Mr. PHILLIPS and Mr. PEEL mutually explained. Mr. FINLAY said, he had no objection to some of the regulations in the Bill, except this, that they would be of no use, and remain a dead letter. He also complained that the Mover was now proceed ing, net on the evidence which had been adduced be fore the Committee, but on private information,' which persons on the other side of the question had no opportunity of rebutting. If any regulation was ' adopted by Parliament on this subject, it would be obeyed by those ManufaCturers whose establishments were at present well conducted, - and neglected by the others—so that it would punish the good for the be nefit of the bad. He thought there was a risk in in• terfering with the Cotton Manufactory, which was so important to the nati onal pr osperity . A ll other countries had the same advantages as we, and if by any injudicious regulations impediments were thrown in the way of the exertions of individuals, our 'superiority would soon be at an end. He had no doubt that the children in Cotton Factories were bet ter clothed, better' fed, and altogether iencire cohifor-' table than those who were employed in other species of work, or than those who were not employed at all. He had been obliged, as a Member of the Commit tee, to visit tyre jail, and he had there seen children of ten or twelve years of age under sentence of death. If they had been employed in factories, they would not •have been under temptation to commit such crimes, He admitted that children should 'not be employed under nine years old ; neither was it forshe advantage, of the manufacturers so to employ them; neither did he believe any so young were employed. As to the long hours, the time of working was longer in the linen manufactories, and in the woollen facto-- ries, it was stated in evidence, that they worked four teen hours, though this had been denied. He hoped the Hon. Mover would proceed with great caution. Mr. cm:mg* - said he-approved of the object of the Bill ; but he would - reserve his opinions, - as he should afterwards have an opportunity of giving them more fully in the Committee. Sir FRANCIS BURDETT observed, that the em-. 1 ployment of persons of a tender age for an unlimited number of hours, must be very prejudicial to their health and their happiness. It had been found that those employed in night-work were more healthy in appearance than those employed in the day-time ; because the former were indulged with certain inter vals of recreation ; while the long, severe, and unin terrupted application of the latter operated in the most prejudicial manner against their general health and happiness. The Bill was then committed, the Report was brought up, and ordered for further consideration on that day six weeks. • 2)IS c: c hatey 00: so ,a-11.1 e j those tl ; :e d thin t he ho Jered. for I ..?andi ft from mea that ckets of ease tell • a ss lru ce. '3,14 In He by it the 11 : : irnproPl' dente: 6 3 1 to. stage, as intention lir. 1 ' hid been . view of t. &ein ohs c ar.cerae ia that h ccanecte rezniain •SeCer, ,:d som the ane o coked' MISCELLANEOUS. Sir P. MORDAUNT presented a Petition from the Guar dians and Overseers of the Poor of Birmingham, stating the alarming increase of the Poor Rates in that Town, and praying thatthe House would take the subject into immediate and serious consideration.' Referred to the Committee on the Poor Laws. Sir WILLIAM BURROUGHS gave notice that on Wed nesday he would move for a Return of the Number of Persons that had been apprehended for Treason, and on Suspicion of Treason • as also when they had been committed, and when discharged. Mr. Sheriff DISANCIES presented at the Bar of the House the Petition of the Lord Mayor, Aldermen, and Commons of the City of London, in Common Council assembled, against the proposed Bill for Indemnifying Ministers from the consequences of the mode in which they had put in force the Act of last Ses sion for Suspending the Habeas Corpus. Ordered to be printed. On the Motion of Sir WILLIAM CURTIS a statement was ordered to be laid before the House of the money paid by the Chamberlain of the City of London, on account of the several Jails in the said City, for the two years ending Christmas, 1817, distinguishing the money paid on account of each jail. On the Motion of Mr. BOSWELL an Account was ordered to be laid before the House of the Fees now payable at the Royal College of Surgeons in London, by Members taking out their Certificates; as were also similar accounts with reference to the Royal College of Surgeons at Edinburgh, and the Royal College of Surgeons at Dublin. Mr. COURTENAY postponed the second reading of the Surgery Bill to Friday. Sir FRANCIS BURDEtT presenteli several Petitions front Warwick and other places, praying for inquiry into the practices of Spies and Informers. The Honourable Baronet said Mat he would have given notice of a Motion to inquire into*thisinfa mous system, hut that notice had been already given for thispyr , pose by an Honourable Friend of his (Mr. Pnifip9. The Committee of Supply WAS postponed till Wedrieerla7. A few *sum bailee eiglst o'clock the Howe adjoUrnild till to-nip:arm IMPOItrAND INQUIRY. Mr. Alderman *Poop, to whom carious complaints had been made since his return front France, upon the subject of the state of Newgate, thought it ne cessary, after an. examination of that prison, to move in the House of Commons .for a Committee to in quire into the causes of complaint. The Committee was appointed, and Alderman WOOD elected Chair man. On the first day of inquiry, which was Thursday last, the Committee were proceeding . to investigate, and had already seen enough to convince them of the very pressing necessity of making alterations in the several passages and wards, when a prisoner named' Lucas, upon whom sentence of death was some time ago passed, but whose judgment was lately respited, suddenly addressed Mr. Alderman WOOD, and begged that he would attend to a recital which affected the lives of Spicer and Kelly, the two boys who were in the ground cells for execution fer passing forged notes. Mr. Alderman Wools listened with the utmost attention to the declaration . of Lucas, who said he had been informed by a man named Parsons, the ne phew of a police officer, that there had been a plan between that Officer and a wretch mimed Finney, against the two boys; and that the bait had taken, for the boys were condemned, and wOuldhe executed. Mr. Alderman Wools immediately sent an officer for Parsons, and having ebmmunicated to the Com mittee the information he had received from Lucas, h determinatibn was made to efamhae into the particu-• lars of the ttlansaction.' 'The first person examined was the convict Kelly. He said that he became acquainted with a man named Finney, about three or four months before he was apprehended. At their first acquaintance, Finney was a costerrnonger ; and Kelly being out of em ployment, was taken into sekvicaby him. They were not long together when Finney told him he knew a good way of getting money ; Kelly asked in what. manner ? and' was answered, " By passing queer notes." He consented to join in the plan, and Finney Enrchased clothes to fit him out for the business, in Field-lane. As soon as he was dressed decently (his former clothes were in tatters, for he had been in ex treme distress), Finney gave him bad pound notes, one at a time, to pass in different, shops. He suc ceeded in getting off a great many, and then Finney. proposed that he should try notes of greater nomi nal value. It was the practice of Finney to wait out side each shop, when Kelly went in, and he exercised the utmost caution. by never putting into the boy's hand more than one note at a time. •• When Kelly consented to try large. notes, Finney proceeded to make new arrangements. Ile proposed a plasterer's jacket and apparatus, having expressed his opinion that such a dress would be a good secu rity against suspicion ; he also gave him the names Of several persons with whom he had worked as a plasterer himself some time ago. He brought the plasterer's jacket of flannel, a white apron, and a pa per cap,' and put them upon Kell?. 'These articles of dress were all splashed with whitening, as if the wearer had been at work. In this trim, Kelly, ac companied by Fumej, his director, went out to page the large notes. Finney shewed him three 'new 101. notes, wrote names upon them, and rubbed them to- Igether, to make them appear dirty, and as if they had been in circulation for some time. The first place they went to, upon this mere ITOMME plihr Chenies-street, Bedford-square, where Pinne y gave him one of the 10/. notes, pointed out the 'house of a large plasterer, with whom he said he had fbrmerly worked, gave Kelly the name of the fOiemaii, which he . desired him to use in passing - the note as . the` business Wat managed by the foreman. The first place he tried was the house of Mr. Bousall, a publican, where he passed a ten pound note. — In the same manner he passed another 101. at a pub lic:house, at the corner of a street in TottenhaM cOurt-road ; and another •he got changed at a Mr. Taylor's, - a baker, , in the same road, Where Finney said the plasterer dealt. :He gave Finney all the money he got in change, and received from him the reward of 2/. or 31. The practice was kept up for some time, Finney always remaining outside the door with a top coat, which he put upon Kelly, that those whom he had 'deceived might not know him. Kelly saw Finney talking - to the Officer above alluded to the day before he and Spicer were apprehended, and the Officer eyed them most closely. The impres sion upon Kelly's mind was, that Finney was talking to the Officer about them. On the evening Kelly and Spicer were apprehended, Spicer had been just enlisted in the business, and never before that night was con cerned with them. Finney had 'obtained Spicer's consent to pass the, notes, and desired that boy and Kelly to go to Kelly's lodgings, while he went to get some tea. After a delay of half an hour, Fin ney came to them, and they all went out together.— Kelly was in the lasterer's dress, and Finney took off Kelly's hat when they came near the butcher's in St. Martin's-lane, and putting the paper cap upon him, told him to go into the butcher's shop, use the name of Mr. Creese, of Long-acre, and get change of a .5/. note.. Kelly went into the shop, leaving Spicer and Finney outside. He got change of the note, and on corning out gave the five one pound notes he got in change to Finney, who passed them into Spicer's hand. They walked along as far as King-street, Seven Dials, when the officer came behind Kelly, wko was walking by •the side of Finney, and seized him, calling at the same time to another Officer who ac companied him, to "go forward and nipper him," pointing to Spicer. Spicer was apprehended ; he and Kelly were dragged into a shop, while Finney was allowed to look on and walk off. Spicer, the other convict, said* henlet Finney at a -public house. He never went out with him until that night, andhad accompanied Finney at his earnest re quest. While Kelly was in the butcher's shop, Finney ran across the way for a moment, and after saying a few words to somebody returned. ' The Committee having learned that Parsons was in waiting, ordered him in. He stated, that he had seen Finney and the Officers alluded to frequently to gether and suspected that something wrong was be tween Iliem;fortie could not conceive what inference but a bad one, could be drawn from an intimacy be .weal a thief and an Officer. Finney breakfasted with the Officer the day after the apprehension of the boys, and had been out in a chaise together. Par sons mentioned this circumstance to a man, whose name he did not know to be Lucas, but upon being .confronted with Lucas, he immediately recognized him as the person to whom he made the observation. —The Committee, ttpon hearing all these tircdttt• stances, sent a deputation to Lord SIDUOUTH, re questing that the sentence of the law, which Was ap. pointed to be put ,into execution to-morrow, should be deferred, and stating as a ground fur the request, that they had. reason to suppose from recent facts, that Spicer and Kelly had been led to commit the crime of which they were convicted, by villains of much deeper depravity, and that it was the first crime of Spicer. The reply from Lord Stnmovut was, We are given to understand, that the case had undergone the con , sideration of the Council, who were of opinion that the sentence of the law should be putt in force. The Committee proceeded yesterday farther in the investigation. A number of the friends of the Me:n• bens were asseMbled, amongst whom we observed Sir ROBERT WILSON, Mr. lioanousa, &c. . , . Mr. HAIIME!t, the Solicitor, had attended on the first day, at the request of Mr. Alderrnaiffooe, and was employed yesterday most busily in the 'investi gation. He suggested that the women who were the usual companions of Finney and Kelly, should be. brought to Newgate.-It was done with the greatest dispatch. . Emma Connor, who was questioned most particu larly by Mr. Bennet, said she lived- with Charles Finney.; she knew he was in the habit 'of getting forged notes for Kelly to pass. Finney told her he was in company with Spicer and Kelly when they were apprehended. Finney, and i girl named Rus sell, and herself, were taken up as disorderly, three weeks before Kelly and Spicer were apprehended, and taken to the watch-house in, Strand-lane, by one John 'Bean, and - the next day, when they went to Bow-street, the Officer before alluded to • spoke to Bean not to say * any thing 'against Finney. Bean complied ; and Finney was discharged. Emma Con nor and RtisSell.Vere - ordered to find bail. Crin nor - learned from Finney that he had procured the plasterer's dress from his father for Kelly to wear as a disguise in passing forged Bank of England notes -Three days after Kelly arid Spicer were appre. hended, Pinney went and spent the evening with the Officer at a public-house, where he remained until the house was shut up, as he told her ; and when he came home, he said he had seme expectation of bee ing made an Officer. • Finney also, told her he had the notes from a min named Scott, in the City•roade • After Kellr and-Spicer were in custody, Finney fold her hereeszt to lGelly's lodgings, and took from be .hind a glass the forged notes he had placed there.-& He gave her one of them for 51., and, she was takes . into cutody for passing it. . • Kitty Connolly said she lived with Kelly. Me, • Spicer, and Finney, were at the lodgings the night of the apprehension of -the two former ; Finney left the lodgings at the same time, declaring that they would soon return. Finney returned in half an hour, and said his two companions had been apprehended for passing aV. note. ' He took Kelly's watch add' some money, and also some forged notes, which were behind the glass. . • .- Israel Chapman, a convict, saw Kelly and Spicer at the 'Ct - iiini. Hart,• He saw Finney with them the . ni,glif O* were apprehended. He heard Finney tell Kelly 'and Spicer to go to Kelly's lodging, and after he had mketrtra - he Would join them. He had fre- ... Wentl7 sego Kelly and Finney together, and knew. item Ow conversation that took place between them, that Disney had forged notes for-Kelly to pass,. Chapman also said he twice saw the officer alluded fo tiding in a chaise With Finney, and upon asking harp ivbythe sventebtst•with such fellow ? was answered that there wore reasons for it. 11-,. Braidley.thefrosecutor, said; that the officer • had mentioned . .te hith, that he got SOL from the Bank, as a compensation for his trouble; and thae.lie ,had given part of it to the person who gaire hilif ifie information. -. ' -- ' .. 1-. , ...... . The Officer acknowledged that he had received his information from Finney, and that,he.had asso .ciated with that person before and afte r the appre hension of Spicer and Kelly. ' ..., ' .. ' Finney did not make"his appearance. - The Committee sent a second Depdtation totoe'd Sinsiotrrir, to press the necessity of granting a respite -.7 upon these strong grounds ;.and last night a respite for a week was granted for Spicer and Kelly. , ~, It would appear thICTIZITT,ickets and Shares ht the present Lottery, are travelling after the Prizes he sold in the last ; for not only is the . demand at tits Offices in London great; beyond all precedent, btft his Agents throughout theKingdoni are equally busy. 'The Lottery will begin drawing on Wednesday,. thil i 4th of next Month, on which day nearly 5,000 Tickets will be drawn, each Number deciding its own fate, and no other. By the arrangement made, ten Capi tals out of the one hundred, Which 'the Scheme con-, tains, must be drawn in the first teri minutes, exeln-' sive of what the chance of the Wheel may effertesrs bring forth. This naturally accounts for the eager ness of adventurers to make their purchases before the drawing commences, lest the whple of the Three Prizes of £3 . 0;006 should be drawn- the First Day. The very great satisfaction. the plan adopted in for- . mer Lotteries gave to personi residing in the Country,, has induced T. BosH, the Contractor, to t repeat ifiii the present; and he hopes he has,.as in a recent Lot tery, selected some of the Capitals amongst these numbers advertised._Tll6under-mentionedisimbeis may be had either in Whole Tickets, lialves,'Quiir ters, Eighths, or Sixteenths, at No. 4., Cornhill t • 1 , 2,109 10,212 . 1V;088 7,412 2 1 820 '17,..53. 6,826 , 11;488 5,121 17,251 " - 11,486. 46,083 16,057 2,818 51,125 13,200 13,232. 10,185 8,323 • 2,757 11,456 10,213 15,074 114e2 3,110 The following 'timbers may e had either in - whole Ticketi, Halves, Ata4iters, Eighths, or Sixteenths; ar No. 0, Charing -Cross: " 10,214 12,321 11,490 4,608 .13,553 13,234 10,215 4,511 11,123' 7,415 ' 16,089 17,231 3,002 13,571 8,285 17,204 16,090 10,130 2me. 3,131 15,071 13,235 11,459 3,122 2,816 The present Lottery contains Three rrizes of ieSO,OC.O -One Hundred Capitals-all Sterling .Meirey-nf Stock Prizes-no Classes--no re.draw. - 'III( Drawing commences Wednesday, the4th o f t MARK, Ticket - - . £l9 10.0_ - Half - £lO 9 0 I Ei g hth - .411,13 6 Quarter 5 5 0 1 Si A teenth 1 7' Q s„,* Letters (postpaid) containing Ban-hofes, or • Post-Office Orders, duly attendettte: - The last Lottery that contained ThreePltzes . c 1 £30,000, Btsii sold them all ! and 'last Lottery 4, sold Three Prizes of 1:-.5),000, .111 in Sh.tres. I . • 1 . 14 i 1 , , ~.1 , f 1 ' , 1 1 . 1 1 ! 1 ' i t i l ' e , 1 _ t , I . i t 11 1 ° i/' i !,1 .. , t , till 4. • •, I 1 E• . : t 111 1 , i 1 1 . th i ii r ; r i a 1 ' 1 1 .. , i . 1,0 1 1 I 1 , . . 1-. 4 t IP S .. 1 ' t i 4 - 4 / 11 r S . 4_ , It 1 e .e . ' i d ° r- k,... : ai t 5e TS . l I"- I 1 1 1 1 1 is !le 1"i I A at . 1 / I i l 00 i nr, he .H. ft , 1 1 pr Ct.; ha i viii