Star. — London, England, 1824-05-05 00:00:00

There was no object to which the attention of Parlia went bad been more earnestly directed than the amelio radon of the condition of Ireland; and the utmost readiness would, he was sure, be evinced to comply w ith any measure that should be likely to accomplish it. Partaking, as he di,l, of this feeling, it was with great regret that he could not adopt the suggestions of the Hon. Gentleman's proposition. It was true that Parlia went had on many occasions called on the public to ad vance money for purposes of local improvement. Two instances of this had occurred in Leland. One where a sum had been placed at the disposal of the Lord Lieutenant, to be advanced without any view of repay went; the other where it was expected that the advances would be returned. The House would agree, with re gard to the first of these, that however desirable it might be to afford relief in times of particular pressure, yet that such eleemosynary bounty could be justified by nothing but cases of overruling necessity, which set all principle at defiance. He did not apprehend that the Hon. Gentleman proposed any loan should be made without a prospect of repayment ; but he (the Chan cellor of the Exchequer), although he had often been a party to such loans as that now proposed, had always doubted the policy of them, and particularly with re gard to Ireland. His doubts arose from the anxiety he felt that Ireland should be permanently benefitted, and that nothing should be done which, although it might afford temporary advantage, would be succeeded by disappointment. Ile feared that if grants of this sort were lavished from the public purse, they would, instead of inducing Irish Gentlemen to trust to their own resources and exertions for roc-in g the energies of the country, and relieving its inhabitants, en courage the belief that Government would, on every occasion, keep their heads above water. Till: fatal error appeared inseparable ham the project. It was impostible always to go on ; an d w h en the s y s . tern slvarld terminate, the objects of this bounty of Lament world be found incapable of making an exer tion for their own good. With regard to the practical part of the Honourable Gentleman's plan, he (the Chan cellor of the Exchequer) did not exactly understand in what way it was proposed to apply it to the fisheries. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) was not prepared to say that the object of setting up the fisheries only (not maintaining them) was objectionable ; but for this purpose the sum proposed seas cleaily too large. A sum 450001. or 6000 V. was annually expended by the Lord Lieutemint in building smail piers, and lorry Mg rat bout s, at fishing stations. These were %vox ks which the indivi duals could not do for themselves, and to which, there fore, the public money was vet y reasonably applied.— The objection floss - so common sr ith teipect to It ciami, c f want of security, was the cause which prevented ca• pital from flowing in the same channels as in Engiand. But as even in parts where this objection did not apply, corn was grown in reference toll ix, the inference from this must necessarily be, that flax conld net be pro. duced as so cheap a rate, or at so great a pi alit, as other zsticulttiral produce. At least it must be adniitted that it was debit able Parliament should not interfere in lend ing money unless it was absolutely necessary ; and if the co:st!ary should be insisted on, he should feel it his duty to ,Tinse the preposition. He had not thought it ne cei;a:y to press his objections at length, nor with any arnah. Parliament had already applied itself ear res!ly to ti:e relief ollreland by the reduction of taxation, and by removing restrictions which affected commerce. The ci i‘racter ro these measures was, that they could c'o no Intim, while the inevitable inference of practical experience was, that they would do great ultimate good. ?`:o circumstances :tad been stated to prove to the House that the measure which was now proposed possessed either the one or the other of these qualities; its neces sity was quite as doubtful. The 'chef which it would afford must be temporary and delusive, and the I foii.e would probably be called upon two or three }ears hence to persist in the system they would have sanc tioned, and which ever y year it would be one mo:e difficult to abandon. U.:der this view of the case, he thought it much mo:e advisable that the f 1 ruse shoald decline to enter upon it, and he therefore concluded by moving the previous question. Mr. MABEItLY, in explanation said, that it was his intention that the money (should ParVament concur with his motion) should be advanced, not merely to one branch of manufactnre, hut to ever} branch which might apply for it, giving good security. Ile would also give it to the encouragement of the fishery. Lord ALTHORP did not think the general ob . •ceon to grants of this description applied io that content plated by the present motion. At present capital was • actually forced out of Ireland. lc was sent to Mexico, and to all parts of the n mid, except to that country.— He thought every exertion ought to be made to invite capital to Ireland. To do so, he would almost say that he would consent to take off all taxes on direct con sumj:tinn. If this were done, many of the difficulties to a residence there would be removed, and many per sons who preferred foreign countries for a residence from motives of economy, might then be induced to give the preference to Ireland. Although he did not entirely concur in all that had been stated by the Hon. Mover, he approved of the plan, and did not think it would be impracticable to carry it into execution. Ile should therefore support the Motion. Mr. JOHN smiTki thought the argument of the Chancellor of the FccbcTe:r most extraordinary. This was the first time he had ever heard granting public loans for national purposes stigmatised as prejudicial to a country. He was himself a Conrmis.ioner, under an Act of Parliament, for lending money to the Pub lic for making roads, building bridge , , or some Such purpose, and he spoke from experience when he said that such a practice vas pi oduc:ive of the be effects. Why then was Ireland, so much depressed as she was, to be denied the benefit of such a system ? l'he Right Honour:lWe Gentleman, he knew, had the interest of Ireland at heart. lie must say, however, that the London Committee for the relief of the Irish had not met with that support from The I. ish Mern . per s which they had a right to expect. NeJer.hcless, much .rend had been done. There could not be a mere apt listance of the effect of maldng su.all loans to the Peo ple than that which the fisheries afforded. With the Niltry sum of 1001. a Reverend Gentleman in Irelerd had fitted out upwards of forty fishing boats, which had led to the successful employment of J-i 3 indivi remaining in hand. 110 rot change oar system of land, there were events lr would pull down this and bring destruction amelioration winch were :ar). I, that after what had )jest, it would r,ot be such time in his remarks. The Honourable Memlser (Mr. J. Smith) had observed, that his Right Honourable Friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had not been as eloquent on this occa sion as on others; and he had attributed it to the mode of argument he had adopted. His Right Honourable Friend had expressly stated his readiness to concur in any measure which might be suggested favourable to the interests of Ireland, but he did not think that the present was one of that description. For his (Mr. Gaud burn's) own part, he would say, that it would give him the greatest satisfaction to be able to state on his return to that country, that he had procured from Parliament, or assisted in procuring, a grant of a million of money to be applied for the encouragement of Irish industry, and he would most cordially concur in the proposition, if he thought it was likely to be attended with such be neficial results as had been stated. It was but justice to the present Lord Lieutenant of I; eland to state, that he was disposed to carry such a measure into effect, and' that he had tried it as far as it was practicable ; but he was obliged to discontinue it, when it was ascertained that it was not attended with the results which bad been anticipated, or with any good result for the genet al ad vantage of the country. The Honourable Member (Mr. J. Smith) bad stated, that Acts had passed fir granting sums of money, by way of loan, for carrying on particular works in England ; but if the Honourable Member had read a little farther into the Acts of Par- liament, he would have found, that at the ti me 1,000,000/. had been granted for such purposes in this country, the sum of 500,0001. had been advanced for a similar pur pose in Ireland. This was not imcnded as a permanent system of Government, but as a temporary expedient to meet particular ernes gencies. Indeed, for a certain pe riod, scarcely a Session passed in which particular-sum, had not been so applied. It was also enacted, as an el:- couragement for the application of capital to works in Ireland, that any person who should embark his cal .i:4l in public works in that country, should be allowed the interest on that capital for a certain number of years. It. might now be worth while to iAquii e hat had becii the result of those advance? One grant had beco ap plied as advances for the encouragement of trade aad manufactures. After some time a Commission was pointed to inquire into the effect of those advances. The Commission consisted of men above all suspicion—meo I of the highest character for integrity and impartiality— men of different religions, but of no political parties: 13) these it was represented to Goveinment, that they con sidered, under all the circumstances, the advances or loans to be working rather an injury than a benefit to 1 the country—that those to whom the loans had been ad- I vanced, and who were most anxious in seeking for them, I eie men, who for the most part, without any capital of ;heir own, were anxious to compete with those who worked their own capital ; and that the low rate of in terest at which the loans were obtained enabled them to Jo this the more easily. Under those circumstances, the Lord Lieutenant determined to withdraw su:h ad vaaces, and to confine them in I tante to public works only. He feared that a similar fate would attend the loans which might be advanced under the motion of the 11011°1,1 - able Member, should the House agree to it. He would not go to the details of the Honourable Member's motion, for it was rather to the principle that he object ed ; but one objection would be, that Government must resort to means of severity to recover those loans if any difficulty occurred : it would have the preference of all other cm editors, and recover by the process of extents. This would cause the other creditors to withdraw the money due to them, by every possible means ; and the consequence must be, that Government must either forego the debts which might be due to them, or by pro ceeding for them produce a greater inconvenience. It was tine, that a part of the money already granted by Parliament was still in the hands of the Irish Govern ment ; and any addition to it at present would be only holding out hopes which it might not be possible to r:alize. %%Idiom going to the other points of the Honour able Member's speed', he would state, that the ground on which he concurred with his Right Honourable Friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) in opposing the motion, was the inexpediency of advancing funds to the people, which could not be permanently kept up, and which, as lie had observed, would be giving rise to hopes which could not be realized. There were, he would admit, occasions when, the people not having a sufficient supply of food, it might be necessary to ad- 1 vance a sum of the public money for their relief; hut it was, he thought, inexpedient to call on Parliasoent for an advance of money when some such pressing neces sity did not exist. We should reserve the demands on the public money until time of need ; and not give the peo ple the habit of looking to a giant of public money on every emergency. After a few words in explanation from Mr. J. SMITH and Mr. GOULBURN, Mr. SPRING RICE expressed his surprise at the Proclamation which had just been made by the Irish Government in anticipation of the starvation of the people of Ireland. He never heard a more curious ar- . _ gument against granting the meansof relief. The means of improving the country and its resources, and placing the people out of the reach of sudden calamity, were demanded of Parliament ; and the answer of the Right Hon. Secretary opposite (Mr. Goulburn) was—wait till the people are in a state of actual starvation, and then give them eleemosynary aid—( Hear, hear, hear). It was the object of himself and friends to prevent the people from falling into this state. The only ground for a refusal which the House could adopt was that of di mess in England ; but this was nototiously untrue. 1 11 , 1' appeared to be agreed upon the principle, but diffeied in the details. The greatest benetit had been derivet.: even from the introduction and loan of flax seed t in Inland. A friend of his, Mr. Strickland, had laid out 1,0001. in the purchase and importation of flax seed, which he lent to the grower to be repaid at the harvest time. He sold fur tive shillings what bef)re could not be got under fifteen. The profit to the indi viduals arising from this 1,0001. was no less than 21,000/. and he had the satisfaction to say that Mr. Strickland frid receive:: Loe whole of the 1,0001. with the excep tion c 40/. which he could have upon demand. The Hon. Member also referred to a similar instance of ad vantage arising from a small capital advanced for the (Telling of a new turnpike road. lit either of the cases, if the answer had been made which was now made by the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, these happy re sults would have been lost. Mr. GOULBURN complained of the manner in which he had been misrepresented. He never had used any such argument a 3 that the people of Ireland ought not to be relieved until in a state of starvation. Neither did he entertain the opinions represented of him on the subject of granting loans for national purposes. He did not approve of the application, in the present instance, of such a loan in the mode proposed. But he was • 'himself a party to the yearly advance of such loans' for the making of roads, or any national monuments of that description. • l‘ re pr i een r s S t . e i t t 1 ICE said he was very sorry if he had miq anything which had fallen from the Right Hon. Gentleman. Nothing was farther fi °in l.is in tention, and no one was more disposed than he was to give credit to the Right Hon. Gentleman In ser vices in Ireland. Mr. Secretary CANNING said, that as he had been absent from the House during the time tliat his Right Honourable Friend had spoken, he could not tell whe ther the Honom•ahle Member for Limerick (M r.S. Rice; had misrepresented what had previously fallen from hi , Right Honourable Friend : but from all he kne.v of his Right Honourable Friend's opinions in general, as well as upon the particular subject under di .cussi:in, he was inclined to believe, that what hz. had stated had not been correctly understood by the Honour tble Member f Limerick, and he was happy to find that his opinion had been confirmed by the explanation which Irld be ,m given by his Right Ilonomruble Friend. The I lourutr able Member for Limerick had argued as if the point at issue wele, whether Parliament should, on any occa sion short of an exigency absolutely amounting to v...tr.t, afford any pecuniary assi •tance to ',eland ; but a:: ht. ( 1 " Canning) understood the inestion, it Was not 01 that general nature, but only whether, on the pre.,enr occasion, and in the particular way piopo , ed, such as sistance should he granted ?—(lkar.) He would . . that nn proposition which had been made for the r.•lief of Ireland deserved to be entertained with mor e lAvout than that which had been pr.tposed by the Ilini.ntrable Member for Northanwton t it the I - lottst.', welr to con sider only the manner in which it ha J been intioduced to the notice of the I-1 , 111 , e. Nothing could he better than the Holton:able Mover's addl.! s, both in the con ception and the. etecution —(llear). He was suet% tiont the temper which the llonottrahle Member h di, played, that he would :eadily admit that it was poi•ihle for an individual to differ with hint in regat d to the appli cat;oa of the principles w Lich he ha.l propounded, t+ith out at a ll the principles themselves. The /Immutable Member had stated the case fairly, and, in deed, rather against himself, when he said, that unless he could shew that time existed a crisis in which as sistance ought to be afforded, and that his mode of A lm ding that assistance was the most available, his pro position must fall to the ground. In his opinion, the scheme proposed by the Honourable Member would be attended by inconveniences which would more than counterbalance the advantages which could be hoped from it. On what had the Honourable Member for Limerick rested his support of the proposition? On the example of the barren district being by an advance of public money converted into a flourishing neighbour hood. Undoubtedly, in the particular instance, this was a blessing; but the Honourable Member was wrong in deducing from that circumstance the general rule, that it would be wise to expend the public money in en deavoni ing to produce a similar change in every barren spot in Ireland. The same Honourable Member had also directed the attention of the House to an inst ince of the successful cultivation of flax. That result had been produced by the landlord lending his tenants money to enable them to cultivate their land; and the argument of the Honourable Member was, that because the experiment had been successful, ergo it would be advantageous for Government to advance loans to the landed gentlemen of Leland. He did not mean to deny that advantage might not result from Government giving its aid to public works; but it was quite a dif ferent thing for Government to come forward as a lender, and particularly as a lender to th -! landed in- terest of Ireland. He thought that the scheme of len:I -ing money by Government would be in the highest de gree mischievous. He entertained this opinion the mote strongly, perhaps, because it was one to which he had been converted; for, according to the old adage, con verts always maintained their new opinions with greater heat than those which they abandoned. A few years ago he had entertained an idea, that the distress& s of the landed interest of England might be relieved by making Government advance them money at a lower rate ofinterest than that w Bich was usually paid, in order to enable them to pay off the mortgages and other incumbaances of their estates. lie had set out in his schelne with the most sanguine expectation of arriv ing at a satisfactory conclusion, and it was with the greatest unwillingness that he stopped with the convic tion that his plan was impracticable, and that if it were practicable it would be mischievous. Ile presumed that the Crown would technically stand in the place of lender ; and then he would ask whether the Crown had the same privileges in Ireland, when Et and i g in the character of a creditor, that it possessed in England ? If, as he presumed, it did, could any man conceive that the landed gentlemen of Ireland could stand in a more inconvenient situation than as debtors of the Clown? It was observed in the Spectator, or some other popular work of that nature, that nothing was so diff.Tent as the commencement of a loan, and the end of it—(d laugh). Nothing could be so amiable as a lender; but nothing was so odious as a creditor. The borrower at first addressed the lender cap in hand ; but when he changed the mild name of lender to that of creditor, he was unwilling to lo , k him in the face —(A laugh). So it would be if the Crown were to lend money. After a certain time it must apply for payment. What then would take place? The Crown, it was well known, had the preference over all other creditors, and would take first. Nothing could be conceived more incon venient than such a eh cumstance, when it was cart ied to any considerable extent— ( Hear, hear). To make the landed gentlemen of Ireland debtors of the Crown, would cause them inconvenience, and loss, and perhaps ruin. It was these comiderations which had induced him to abandon a similar scheme which he had once entertained with regard to England—Wear, hear!) He ' was convinced that such a plan could not be cart ie,l into effect in Ireland without producing inconveniencirn infinitely greater than those which it was intended to remove. With respect to one of the other topics which had been touched upon—namely, the affording pecu niary assistance in aiJ of public woi ks—that course of proceeding had already received the sanction of ment. To a specific proposition of that nature lie would not be indisposed to give his favourable atten tion; but he was compelled to vote against the motion which had been submitted to the House upon the pre sent occasion—(f:ear). Mr. NI ABEItLY contended that thete would be no thing improper in Government advancing loans to the landed Gentiemen of Ireland. He was sure that if Par liament did not sreedily afford relief to that country, a general system of rebellion would ensue. Ile had re ceived from his agent in Ireland the most distressing accounts of the state of the pool er classes. There were hundreds of thousands of people there able and willing to - work, who had not been able for a lonktime to earn more than two-pence a-day. Parliament would not he acting justly if, whilst it was voting money for the building of palaces and churches, it v6thlield its assist ance from lieland—(fleat, hear). Colonel TR ENCEI praised the conduct of lr. ic k hod, who had to by tlif, flornitaSle Mem- bet for Unit,' irk tMr. S. Rice). and a ho was merely an agera ea. ; :loyed by st.”le attcrnies to su trill the ritii.ed estate ni a NoMema The unfot tunate situation of Ileland was to Ile - cl.rt fly attrihtvesi to the distresses f the residei•t,, and theref t )re he tltOug!tt that loan to them would he attended witlt hew_ficixl ri?tslts. Mr. A BER.CROMBY ve.l, tliat it WAS a most extt aordinat y en insta!tce that out of all the t edund tr.t capital of this country no put of it shoold go to Ire land, where there were seven millions of fellow-sWje,ts suffering from ,the want of cat.ital. SornethUg very strange there cel tainly must he in such a state of things. But Nlhattver that might he, here was a motion to in di.ce Gr , vernmera to do that wh;ch individuals would not do, but whit h it was inc.st desirabe -should be done. A long >eties of misgovernment, he feared, was the eau' e of the anomaly which he had noticed; and if some deniive. Act) were not taken, the most fearful re , ,u:ts mto,t be anticipated. Ilowever, notwithstanding ' t!.e opinioits he entertained of the state of Ireland, he could not as-tent to the motion of his II tnourable Friend. If i s ()hi e( t ion was not to the principle of his proposition, hut its applicaticat. Ilk objectioo was to the amount if . the money, wl ich was such that no security could be offer eel fo r it except the land, and from that he saw the gtea;est mischief. In that respect he entirely accorded with die Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Secretary Canning), and was only sur prised that a pers ot of his acuteness should es er have entertained such a scheme for a moment. He should however be glad to see small stuns distributed in the way in which Mr. Strickland had so beneficially employed capital. Mr. MONCIC declared his opinion to be against the Motion. A great deal was said about giving employ meta to Leland, but lie knew no place to which so much employment had been given for the last thirty years. During that time upwards of a million of acres had been brought into cultivation. The evil of Ireland was in the habits of her population.. They did no more to the eaith than what was sufficient to produce barely enough to subsist upon. They built their own huts, and gave no employment to any trade; acid their gar ments were of the same sparing nature. The super& cies of Ireland and .Scotland, he believed, was much about the same, yet how different wete the amounts of their public bin diens ? Ile propose an Absentee Tax in the shape of Is. in the pound on the whole laud of II elaud. If sonic alteration like that he had suggested was made, much good might be done. If it did not produce any seal advantage it would at least open the way for improvement. Mr. nurciiiNsoN supported the motion, the ob ject of which was to employ the peasantry of Ireland; and was there any man who heard him who would for a moment contend, that in the South and West of Ire land employment was not wanted? He had often urged the necesssity there was that the system in Ireland should be changed—that something should be done for her; and he cautioned Parliament to beware how they sepa rated until they had forced from his Majesty's Govern , ment a declaration of their intentions toward s that part of the Empire. The Irish nation had consented to ruin and disgrace in consenting to the Union. That consent had been obtained by the promises of Mr. Pitt and his friends; and he now called on those who, on all occa sions, were anxious to call themselves Mr. Pat's disci ples, to perform his promises. His Honourable Friend who brought forward this motion had proposed, as one of the means of relief to Ireland, to impede the propa gation cf our species in that country. He knew not what the secret was by which his Honourable Friend thought he should be able to effect this great work, but he believed it would be the most arduous ta,k he had ever undertaken—(A laugh.)—'lhe put suing this great law of nature might be a fault ; but it was one to which his countrymen were particularly addicted, and he was inclined to think it was one of which they would never be cured—(Laughter.)—lle should give the mo tion his warmest support. Alderman BRIDGES thought, whilst we were raising Loans for every part of the world, we ought not to overlook the miseries and wants of our fellow-sub jects in Leland. Ile had no doubt, if a Loan for Ireland was proposed, it would soon be filled. Sir JOHN NE \\ PORT supported the motion. He considered it worth while to try this plan, even if it should only produce a temporary tranquillity in Ireland. That part of the Ealpiic: was sow suffering in conse quence of the enoneous system which had been adopted towards her of endeavoring to raise her taxes to the same scale as those of England. Ireland was unequal to bear the bur then, and the attempt had at length been given up upon a conviction that the thing was abso lutely impossible; and, when it was considered how many millions were annually drawn Born that country, and spent by the absentees in this country, such an attempt was the height of injustice. Mr. Secretary PEEL thought Parliament should rest until they had received a f urther Report from the Com mission, which was now pursuing its labour in Ireland with so much benefit to that country. Mr. MA BERM' shortly replied, and the gallery was cleared for a divi,inn.—For the previous Question, b 5 —For the Motion, 33. Majority against the Altman, 51. Mr. KEMP moved for and obtained leave to bring in a Bill to establi 4h a Metropolitan Register of Alarrines and Burials in England. Sir G. HILL moved for and obtained leave to bring in a Bill to authorize the transfer of certain Stock in Ireland.,. Sur J. NEWPORT moved for a return of the amount of several sums of money granted atid teceHed for the building and keeping up the Church of St. George, in the Cout.ty of Dublin, since the year 1800 to the present year, distinguishing the receipt and ezpen ' diture of each year.—Agreed to. Sir J. NEWPORT gave notice, that he would, on Thursday move for certain returns relative to the poralatitm of Ireland. The British Museum Bill was read a third time. and passed. Mr. KEN N IZ.DY moved the Order ut the Day for bringing up the Report of the Scotch Jury Bill. The LORD ADVOCATE Cued several objections to the DP.. Mr. KENNEDY defended the Biii. Sir O. CLERK supported the ohjeeziens of the Lord Advocate. Mr. A BERCROM BY complaiued of the course adopted in opposing this Bill; why had nut these oh:lee:Mesh...en made in the Committee ? Alnr some further observatiatis from Lorl IitsNING and others, the Itei.ort WaS•reeriVcd. The other Orders were divosed of, and the House adjourned at Two o'Clock. We understand MI. PAYNF, KNIGIIT has bequeathed his matchless collection of medahi, drawings, and bronzes, worth at lcast 30,00 a to the British Museum. They include A single volume of drawings by the inimi tahle CLAUDE, which ti e recollect Mr. KNIGHT pur chased tOr 1.60.1. from a private individual, who, a short tittle previously, had given rd. for the same. 1 1 l i 1 duals, whilst there was yet 206. uas convinced that if we did noi Government with regard to Irel in the prospect of Europe mighty etnpire front her height, upon all tho►e measures of an now only in their infancy—(Ha Mr. CiOULIICRN observed, been already stated on this subj necessary for him to take up mu • 1.