Star. — London, England, 1815-05-23 00:00:00

die message hlttretsidetritind. to ordinary eases, be, knew it was the red - ice **of Parliament to vote an' Address to a Message fl.otn . the Crown, on the entitl ing day I but he believed there was no instance, at least his memory did not furnish him with one, in whichrarliament was called upon to express its °pi llion upon the Treaties communicated to it the very day after they were laid upon the table. and espe. I cially where' they had to vote large sums of money in c osequence of those Treaties. He really thought th it mere than twentylour *hours were necessary to e nable the House to forma correct judgment before deliverirm its sentiments. • • Lord CAS I'LEREAGH contended,. that it was entirely consonant to the practice of Parliament, even on the most grave and important qui!stions, to vote an addre4l to st* Message from the Crown the y subsequent to that Message being sent down.— With respect to the sehsidiary provisions which the H om e would be called upon to make, in consequence of the Treaties laid before them, that certainly would not come within the purview of the vote which it would he his duty to propose to-morrow. He should reserve that branlh cot the argument for a subsequent d j e. As to the general scope of the vote which he me ant to propose, he trusted he should he able to sa-• ttO the House that be did not ask them for any opi• which they were not fully competent to give uteri the information before them ; and he hoped, th::4ere, they would not think it necessary, in this lost inc.., to depart from what had been the usual ar. r angeleent, or hesitate to afford that cordi ii support to the Crown which the present momentous crisis de nt.soded. Mr. PONISONBY replied, that the House oils distinctly t, be called upon for an opinion with re spect to ce rtain treaties which Were to be laid before d ie m 24 hours previously to such a vote, and he eertaiely considered that interval too brief. In the case f the Crown declaring war, for example,' and concluding treaties with other powers in concurrence with whom the MAT was to be carried on, a commit.- uicat on would be made to that House, and all that the House would be called upon to do, would be barely to thank the Crown for the communication, but not he apprehended, to come to any opinion im mediately Piton the nature of the treaties, or the po licy r justice of the war. He could mention one very str..eig instance in point. At the time when an application was made to the House for money to assist Holland, six or seven days p issed before the House returned any answer to that application. In fact, he did not believe that the Noble L ird could pr. , duce a sing': instance where the opinion of Par liarrent was given so hastily as on the succeeding d iy, upon communications of the kind now under con sideration. The Noble Lord said the House were substantially in possession of all the information con tained-in the papers which were ordered to be com neinicated ; but that was not the case. Out Go vernment had annexed a Declaration to the treaty of the _'sth of March, which was sent to Vienna for the aeprebation of the Sovereigns there, and he (Mr. rim:entry) was ignorant, for one, how that Decla ration was received. There was another point wliich he wished to mention :—He had observed, from what passed in another place, that the papers relative to the overture made by France to this country were to be laid before the House that day. Those papers had been sent by the Noble Lord to Vienna, for the purpose of receiving the sentiments of the Allies upon them ; and Whitt their sentiments were he cettaiiily did not know. It appeared to hint, therefore, that there were solid and serious objections against bring ing the House to an opinion so early as the ensu ing day. LordCASTLEREAGH say, that the vote which lie intended to propose might be one of simple thanks for the Message from the Crown, or it might be one of a different description ; but he was decidedly of opinion that it would be more convenient to argue it to-morrow, than to go mot it' by anticipation, by dia. cussing a question which was not now before them. With respect to the information which the Right Hon. Gentleman seemed to think necessary before the klouse could exercise a sound judgment upon the subject, he bad received the commands of the prince Ateget.t to lay before the House all the papers that mid be necessary. Among those papers would be found a dispatch front Lord Clancarty, communica ting the manner in which the overture from Bona-, parte to this wintry was received at Vienna, also the overture itself, and. the judgment pronounced upon it by the Al.jed Sovereigns. He trusted, therefore, that the IligheHosi. Gentleman and the House, when they ho.rett4nsined those papers, would be satisfied that every means had been afforded for enabling them to form a correaand decisive opinion. Mr: WHITBREAD said, that as an act of cour tesy it might have been envied from- the Noble Lord that he would have given some hint as to the nature of: the vote he meant to propose to the House tomorrow, but the whole strain of the Noble Lord's observation were, as usual, ambiguous ; nor could he (Mr. .Whithread) infer frost the Message, which was equally ambiguous, whether the country, at this moment, was to be considered as in a state of 'war, or in that condition of armed peace in which it had been for some time past. Now with regard to the papers in tine .stands of the Noble Lord, which he re piesented as containing the fullest information that vita.' be required upon all the points connected with this important question, he had been informed, only a few hours since. that the Noble Lord was not in possession of the ratification of the Treaty by all the Allied Powers. Probably in the interval between his receiving that information, and the moment at winch he was spaking,itsenight have arrives. He alluded to the ratification by Austria. If it had arrived, it was of dime included among the papers ordered to be presented ; but if it was not among them, it was surely an important omission. It might have been expected also, in the fullness of that information which the Noble Lord had announced to have found among those papers, a treaty of agreement. concluded at Vienna between the Allied Powers, and referred to, in the very first article of the Treaty signed on the 25th of March, without which Treaty it would be im. possible for the House to come to a thorough semi-' nation of the whole subject. He hoped the Noble Lord wo u ld inform the House whether that Treaty was among the papers, or whether it was one which could be communicated to Parliament I bird CASTLEREAGH said, that he was dis posed to give every information in his poieer as to the course he intended w pima on the following . • , st • day, t which ionl,rbe 'impanel without (hawing oa, Ifiebeetthietikancl by anticipation, a discussiOn of the general question. He had nO objection, therefore, to state, that the Address which he should propose, would simply echo the sentiments •of the Message, and give an assurance to his Royal Highness of the support of Parliament, in the measures which he might think it necessary to pursue, in concert with his Allies, and in virtue of the 'Treaties concluded with them.- But, in taking the sense of the House upon that Address he did not mien to obtain from it any vote, pledging it to an approbation of the subsi diary arrangements. The vote of to-morrow wouli be taken upon the broad principle embraced in the Message, that of opposing the pretensions of the com mon enemy, as hostile to The repo e and security of Europe, without entering into any of the details com prehended in the subsidiary engagements. [The Noble Lord her:. sat down, when Mr. Whitbread re minded him that he had not replied to the other ques tions which he asked. .I. , ird Castloroagli then conti d ]—Wit respect to the Austiiiii Ratification, it certainly had not been received, and of cuurse was not pet ViCh•lngell ; but the Hon. Member would see from the Correspondence now laid up at the tab:e. that the compleie and tinqualii•cil assent of Ansi' la hail been given to all the stipulations of the Treaty, and the cause of its delay was merely ministerial, fro:n certain formalities and ceremonies which were necessary before it could be expedited to this country. He corisikred it, however, in every respect to he.as form al and authentic an instrument, as it the ratifica tion had been regularly exchanged. Mr. WHITBREAD said he supposed he might take it for granted that not the smallest doubt existed in the Noble Lord's mind as to die fact of the formal 'ratification of the Treaty by Austria, though it had not yet arrived (hear, hear ! from Lord Castlere %h.) He could not help remarking: however, how easily any little informalities were got over by the Noble Lord, when he was willing to c •mmunidate a docu ment, and how insuperable they were it an informal instrument happened to be moved for by the opposite side of the hinuse.- (Hear, hear.)-lle supposed there was as little doubt in the mind of the Noble. Lord with respect to the other Treaty concluded by the Allies, and which, as ho before obseried, was re ferred to in-the first article of that of the 25th of March, though perhaps it had not yet been ratifieA. If, however, the Noble Lord, in the same spit it of conciliation, would consent to lay that unretified Treaty also before the House, or the substance of it at least, they would then be in possession of all the information winch was necessary, as far as he sea: aware, to form a correct judgment ; but if not, there would be this remarkable singularity in their pro ceedinga ; they would be called upon to approve a ratified Treaty which commenced with giving jts sanction to an unratified Tr:aty, and which unrati fied Treaty could not be exhibited either in toto or in subsume to the House. Surely the Noble Lord might get over the difficulty in the one ease as easily as he had io the other, and at least lay the substance of that Treaty upon the table. The Noble Lord had not satisfied him either as to the nature of the Ad dress he meant to propose, or the Vote he intended to in*. ve for. It was a very simple answer which he ward to obtain. He wished to know whether the Address would be considered as declaratory of the commencement ant offensive war against France, or only as a preliminary proceeding authorising effon sive war whenever the Allied Powers should see tit to begin it? Lord CASTLEREAGH said, the Hon. Mem ber was under a complete misconception as to the traasactions at Vienna. If any Treaty had been' signed, by the Plenipinentieries there, previously to the Treaty of :he `2sth 'ot March, it might undoubtedly be in a condition tit to lay before Parliament eitnet in substance or formally ; but in point of fact no such Traty had ever been si g ned there. The deliberae l tions at Congress had certainly proceeded, and the l Plenipotentiaries had signed protocid of those pro ceedings, which was the only instrument referred ti) by the first article of the Treaty of the 25th March. The engagements contracted by that instrument, were engagements of honour and good faith, And so far certainly they were binding upon the patties ; but they were capable of revision if circumstances should require it, and were not considered as having that solemn character which belongs to a Treaty for mally signed, ratified, and exchanged. He could AS• sure the Hon. Gentleman there was no Treaty in ex istence signed at Vienna pievions to the '2sth March, that could be submitted to Parliament. With re spect to the explanation which he had given of the course he meant to pursue to-morrow, he stated that it was his intention to call upon the House to vote an Address supporting the Crown in those engage ments it had contracted with its Allies, for the pur pose of maintaining the cause of Europe in concert with them, against the efforts of the common enemy. That Address, therefore, might be considered as con ducting to a state of hostilities against Bonaparte and those who adhered to him ; but with regard to any particular instructions which might have been issued to our naval and military commanders, he trusted the Hon. Gentleman would feel that it was not now a proper time for offering any explanation upon that, subject. Mr. WHITBREAD said his question did not point to any such information. With respect to for- . tnalities, in reference to the Treaty or arrangement, or whatever it might be called. entered into by the Plenipotentiaries ..t Vienna, he would just read the first article of the Treaty signed on the 25th et Marchs 4 , The . high contracting parties solemnly engage to unite the resources of their respective States, for the purpose of maintaining entire the conditions of the Treaty of Peace concluded at Paris on the 90th May, 1814 ; as also, tits ens elation determined soon and sign ed at the Congress of Vienne, with the view to complete the dispositions of that Treaty," kc. Would • not any common person reading those words, think that they referred to some stipulations which were binding and conclusive, and not to such as were still subject to revision and alteration ? But the Noble Lord bad new toll the House, that the Allied Powers, in• the exercise of those attributes which belonged to Sove reigns, were still at liberty those stipulations. to change and modify Mr. TIERNEY observed, that he understood the Noble Lord as intending to call upon the House to vote their approbation of the Treaties laid before them. If so, .he must remark, that in the Treaty of the 25th of March there is a direct recognition of cer . .. , ' 7 : .1%. • • tittl stipulations entered into and signed by cbe Pi ono potentiaries at Viennas Now, how was it possible for the House to approve of tt Treaty cdnrilning such a clause, without knowing to What it teferted ,f If the Noble Lord would explain that circumstance in any way that should appear satisfactory to the House, he would be contented. there was another point also, upon whict, perhaps, he would candid enough to give some information—he meant, as to the amount of subsidy which it was intended to propose. L ird CASTLEREAGH replied, that with re spect to the latter question of the Right Honourable Gentleman, he would find an answer to it in the Pa pers about to be laid upon the table; and as to the others, he apprehended he had already given a more precis: notice of his motion than was customary. Any further explanatio... of it would be, he conceived, not only unusual, but derogatory to the character and practice of Parliament. It could only tend to lore ' on the question prematurely. Mr. TIERNEY said he was not endeavouring W force i.n a discussion. He only wished to know upon what grounds the proceedings of to-morrow were to stand ? Lord CASTLE REAG H replied, that he had mos: 1 distinctly state..l, that it was no: his intention. to call 1 upon the House for any epution respecting the Trea tiessubmitted to it, but merely to a general assurance . ' of their support in the war which WAS likely to ens.m' Mr. TIERNEY said, that now they were told they were only to return an answer to the Message, stung asi.ug both the Subsidiary Treaties and the Treaty of the 25th March. Would the Noble be pie iced to explain himself in one word, without . any p Aren thesis ?—(4 laugh.) Lord CASTIAREAGH returned no answer; and the question was accordingly put, and carried in the af firmative. Lord CASTLEREAGH then presented the fol lowing papers at the Bar, which were brought up and ordered to lie on the table.-1. Treaties signed ori the 25th of March with Prussia and Russia, and an additional Convention to each, signed on the 3t)th of April.-2. Letters from Caulaincourt to Viscount Castlereagh, dated Paris, April 4, 1814, together with a Leiter from Viscount Castlereagh to M. CIU. isincourt, d+ted Downing -street, April Cor respondence between Lord Castlereagh and Lord Clancarty on an Alliance against France. Mr. TIE KN EY desired that the Clerk might read the Ist Article of the Treaty of the 25th of March. The article being read, he asked the Noble Lord whether he would explain what the stipulations there referred to were, or produce any document that would afford such explanation ? No answer was given by Lord Castlereagh. CIVIL LIST. Lord Avrtionrr inquired of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, when the papers moved for respecting the eloo,ooo granted to the Prince Regent as an outfit upon his assumption of the Rege:.cy, would be laid upon the table ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCH E.QIJ E R said he had oily been w.titing for an oppoituoity t. present them. The Right Honourable Gentleman then presented them at the Bar, when they were brought up, ordered to lie on the Table, and to he printed. Lord MILTON inquired whether certain persons concerned in a riot which took place last winter at St. Ives. in Huntingdonshire, arising out of circumstances' eennected with the .collection of the Property 'Fax, were to be proceeded against by ex Ifficie informations ? The ATTORNEY GENERAL said, it would be Improper, in the present stage of the proceedings, to give the answer required by the Noble Lord. Genet al GASCOYNE asked s whether it Was the intention of Government to erect any monument to the memory of General Ross? Lord CASTLEREAGH replied, that he was not prepared to say what had been done respecting it. Mr. A. BROWN adverting to a paper which had been laid on the table respecting the operation of the Officers' B;11, expressed his surprise that by that paper it appeared that the Secretary and Clerk of the Crown of 'Antigua had remained in this country twelve months after his appoinrsient. lie moved that the paper he alluded to be printed. • Mr. GOULBU RN did not oppose the motion, but said that on its being discovered that Mr. Aberdeen (the individual in question) was still in England, a notice had been sent to him, that unless he proceeded forthwith to Antigua his appointment would be can- celled. After a few words from Mr. WHITBREAD and Mr. GOULDBURN, the motion was agreed to. The Local Militia Bill was read a second time and ordered to be committed tomorrow. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER brought in a Bill to enable his Majesty to raise a sum for the service of the year by Each• quer Bills.—Read a first time and ordered to be read a second time to morrow. The Law Officers Fees Bill was read a second time and ordered to be committed on Thursday. After a short conversation in which Lord PAL mentyroN, Lord FOLKSTONB, the CHANCELLOR of the F.xcHivatuta. and L•ird MILTON participated, the fur ther consideration of the Report of the Soldiers En listtnent Bill was postponed to Wednesday se'nnight. On the motion of Mr. J. P. GRANT an account was ordered to be laid before the House of the sums levied by the Court of Session in Scotland. on ac count of law proceedings, and of the application thereof. staid, DUTIES. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved the Order of the Day for taking into further consideration the Report of the New Stamp Dudes. Mr. GRENFELL inquired whether any, and what composition had been made with the Bank, for the privilege they enjoyed of issuing notes without any stathp whatever The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER slid, that a negotiation _had been entered into on this point, but that no specific arrangement had as yet been made. Lord LANCELLES hoped the Right Honourable Gentleman did not mean, without mature considera. lion, to persist in the proposed scale of Stamp Duties. Some of them, be thought, would rather injure than benefit the revenue. He conceived the additional duty on advertisements to be of that description. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, Mt, with respect to t he branch of Stamp Du ' ties, to 'bleb the Noble Lord alluded, as well as • • ► ► I le ►e It lOW AA, vhh#cft {ti bll4 dot yet been OA t 8 ffi: festigate pith ittfficietft attentinn i he did OP! MOO tn hying thettl fOtifiatdntt the Istettent dcbaslue. 'nerd wete several other points connected with the ritattfl Dudek to which he intended 10 ptopnte a nuftibe- of verbal amendments If the Houle gene: ally Wished the consideration of this stibit•it to be postponed' he would accede to their feel:ng—tsince he Was sure the intermediate time would be usefully entpl.ited in the collection of infatuation from without doors. Sir M. W. RIDLEY was of opinicat that the ad: ditional duty on advertisements would have an eff ct exactly contrary to what the Right Hon Geatlematt (the Chancellor of the Eschequer) seemed to Opect. Mr. J. P. GRANT observed, that the duty on I:tw proceedings in Scotland, *3 , 111 dr, aw.. y ail actions for stnall debts. 'l 4 l:e eipeoce would be so great, that no person would otigitiate in action in the Court of Sellutn i unless for sultis of rteat man ' nitude. Mr. HORNER was stireriree teat the Hon. Gentleman (the Cleve:eller of the Lxceeteter) should think of increasing the etetep Duees rei tee law proceedings of Scotlend, particularly .45 they were already so extremely heavy in that cuuctre. Sir S. ROMILLY declared th.st tee proposed in crease would operate as a total deeial of ju , ict. the inhabitants of Scotland, where Lee eioceed.ngs were already so extremely cepenove, end .vliere. in particular, it shoutd kart be imposed. Tee effect would be to render litigation an instrument of Inn geence in the !rends of the rich to eoppress tee poor. as none but the optilent could tuppott the sedgin et law suits. Sir J. NEWPORT dt precated such a determina tion, which was not justified by the peculiar circum stances of the two countries. Mr. J. P. GRAN I' said, that from the nature of the law proceedings in Scotland, differing essentially from those in England, an assimilation of the stamp duties would be an extreme hardship to the formers and press with a ten-fold severity. He therefore ete , treated the Chancellor of Exchequer to postpone the consideration of the question, and inform himseit, by means of the law officers of the Crown, on the true state of the case. Mr. HORNER desired to know how the money to be derived from such a measure would be employed, and if it were intended for the increase of the sal-triee of the law officers ? He understood that the salary of the Lord Advocate of Scotland was lately raised to £3,000 per annum, and that of the Solicitor Ge neral for Scotland to £l6OO ; he desired to knoW whe ther the report of such a misapplication of the public money was correct ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied, that , the report was correct, as the former sa laries of those officers did not seem adequate. Sir S. ROMILLY asked, were the chairs of those officers increased ?—(ficar.) The Report Was then ordered to be re-committed en Friday next. Mr. 11U ETERWORTH remarked on tee extreme severity suffered by certain legatees of peisons eying possessed of personal property,. inasmuch as the serve duties were paid for re 90,000 as for Rloo,oeo. Ties he thought rhotild be considered, as the priuciple was very widely extended, and operated with great injustice. Mr. V. FITZGERALD moved the further con sideration of the Report on the Irish Stamp Duet e It was, however, postponed till to-morrow, en the suggestion of Sir S. NEWPORT. The second reading of the Insolvent Debtorte Del was postponed to Wednesday seetnight. The House having resolved iato a Committee on the East India Postege Act, resolutiens were egreel to, to charge, on all letters to and ficen this century to the Cape of Good Hope, the M .urititts, and the Continent of Asia, for a single letter, 3s. 61; for a double letter, 7s. ; fer a treble letter, 10s. 6d. ; anti 14s. an ounce for all letters above treble ; and to cletrge on all letters to and from the Cape of Good Hope to the Menritius, and to the Continent of Asia, for a single letter, Is. 9J.; for a double letter, 31. 6J. and treble letter, 75.; and 10s. 6.1. an ounce for all letters above treli Priva:e soldiers and seamen, and non-commissioned officers, to pay only a penny for each letter. The House having resumed, the Replan was or dered to be received to-morrow; and the other orders of the day being disposed et, the House adjourned. BRUSSELS AND FReINKFORT 1 3 .1P.ERS. rktESIIWW, MAY 5. The King of &tinny has left this some d.lys for the Chateau of Luxemburg t his hl.iiesty was acp conipanied by his Minister Count Einsiedel and Ge• neral Zeschau, BO ['ZEN, MAY S. It is confirmed, trout all quitters, that the Aus trian Army occupies Rome; that the Neapolitans are shut up in Ancona, and that their army is iiiter ccred on its road to Foligno. It is als ) said, that the Lazaroni have disarmed the garrison of Naples. VIENNA, MAY 1. Nothing can equal the fury of the people of Italy, and especially of the Tthcans, against the Maratirts of Naples, against the French, and against all whom they suspect to be their partisans. This hatred game rise, among other circumstances, at Livourne, on the 17th ult. to acts of tumult, which nothing shun of tl►e whole military force was able to suppress► BERLIN, MAY 6. There is apparently in the topics at Vi.nna some negociations of importance with Sweden. Baron de Tante, the Swedish Minister at our Court, rec:ixed, last week, two Com iersfrom Stockholm; immediately after which he di,patched to Vienna his Secretary of Legations who was soon after followed by an °tikes in his suite. TRMSELS, MAY 18. His Excellency Baron Vincent, the Austriae Am. bassador to the French Court, has arrived here on his way to Ghent. VIENNA, MAY 8. We expect every moment a courier with the capi• tulation of Ancona, with which all the military stores fall into the hands of Austria. Some think Joachim will sail to France, others that he will land at Man fredonia ; and, with the wrecks of his army, go to Naples and perish sword in hand. Others think it is too late, otherwise the Queen would not have come to Ancona, It is supposed she has taken the princip tl treasures from Naples, and embarked them at Au. cona, on board the three frigates.