Star. — London, England, 1801-05-05 00:00:00

dents, though he could not tell by what authority peAns lb dele g ated could delegate their power tti•Others-Lthe brit precedent they pioduced was -fi rt lii-rfign of Henry the Sixth, and in this (hors f.'!i•of only twenty-one lines, they have made sufftikesoffiough the Record the report was taken from couU fcarcely be confulered old Eng- Itt;• ;The:Cmurnittee did not under:Lind the Sat o% efiairifecr; there was one charader, a theta, which they iliatank for a r, and a letter which its the Baron charader was a r they millook for a Z. There were, he find, feverpl precedents which they did not give at all, though the Report lays, they have given ell - that bears upon the queftion. lie woiilCnot, however, take up the time of the Houle in detailing shat the Committee had or had pot donei but he would tell the Ilottfe, that notwithftanding the precedents quoted, it was not until the reign of William the Third that Want; and Aliens were prevented from fitting in that Hoare by an exprefs At of Parliament ; that Al peofcribed many perfons, and if it had its full force, the Houle would on that night be deprived , of the pleafure of hearing a very learned and edi-. Eying difcourfe which be anticipated from his Ma jeftyts Attorney General- He faid lie confidcred at as much his duty to contend for his right to fit in that Houfe as if he cared about the feat, and ha "Should - do fo. He approved of the Bill pro poled by the Right Honourable the Chancellor of the Exchequer to prevent perfons in Holy Orders, and Beneficed Clergysnea, from fitting in that Houfe—he fhould have no difiike to a fair Bill, but he contended for his own right, and it was fupportid within the laa fourteen years by perlons of reputatiOn• at:4O ll 5A WAKIW he iliould name 44r. Guillem, Mr. Capin, and ,/tlr. Hatfell—the Lit t*, a man whofe opinion on Parliamentary quef does was of much more importance than that of any Lawyer. A learned Gentleman, he Paid, who ;lithe eon& ofthe debate, had called him to order, had writt e n a hot* t1,4104.the. fn . which Rate!, that ;) ) ,ere were mato prey.** or perfqns being excluded that Houle by vote o Parliatneut.--it was a little unlucky he hoed not find them out. The Law of 'Parliament, by an excluding' vote, 3/ ? 3 Y crt of any Member. Why , he a m!, Shout not Bank DireCtors, Aldermen, and all in corporated Societies, have the lanes-power ? They may then go op expellin until they have reduced their numbers to twit, and only then of neceffity it muft.ceak.• .The prmadetua, be (aid, of es,clud kw parrs** ia HoltY Wm* from feats it; tittt Mmfis west nomore than three--.the irik :48, the feieoud Olt, and the third tat years ago. The 44 4l trge Gradded kcattfe. they ha 4. feats in the. CAISYQR49fb 444 the UAW for being its ItolY • Oaten. . she ma 1624 there it a declaration, that no Osten._ (ball vote (or a Knight of the irs. which has been oxcrlOCthed by he gout, Matta and *a right ko vote, though nevefa t t. spitted, is declared by the Statute; of the scab ofAnne, and oho 18th of George the Second. they are given a right to vote, they muR have a right to at ; if capable of being reprefented, they Inuit be oapable reprefenuog. Why% the Univerfity of Cambridge hilt had permit . - non to fend Reprefentatives to Parliament in the Year. 1603, in the Reign of Jame; the rixits it was ft ptod as his. Ktieay's pleafige, in a letter km, Sir E. Coke, is whicia he recommit* the Univer fay not to fend one of the Costvireation, as it may /mate (bikinis:M. 41311thilt be raid watt Ocit tips for cflif i antioo ; tecotnananded Name of L ay stelae patinas at that time moll likely to be well ;received, but mentioced sot a word of ohs ineligi bility of Clergymen to fit, and he would be glad to bear:what better authority, could be adduced ? Swpole, he faid, a father in the poffefion of eight or eighty thoufand pounds a year, and having two fons, - he makes the younger of them a Clergyman,for the purpofk of providing for him, by giving him a living of a iboucand a year fuppofe the aid& fon was to die, the younger fucceeds him would not the Honfe confider it a little hard, that a perfon in the polfelflon of a frechoM eftate of %Nom'. a year fbould be denied the privilege of tefigning his clerical function;, becaufe, in obe dience to his father's dietates, when an elder bro ther Rood between him and the fortune, he bad accepted of the bea pravifiou be could snake for Lin—Esc/7 Noble Lord bad laid a grcat deal about the fandity of Holy Or ders, he might have locked all that in from his nude or Sts maintria—thefe are not the clan of Popery--4iccordiSig to the tenets of P.opery,there are fevett Sakraments, and Holy Ordees,is one Of them ; but that is not the cafe in the reforMed re ligion--.--Clecgyanen are allovied by it to have the fame feelingras other men—they axe allowed to marry; and they have been hectored by the very beh judges to be as Well qualified for matrimony as any other men. 'He raid he had once petitioned that Haute, and the Houfe had taken the trouble to bear his petition, tbo' they decided that it was frivolous and vexatious ; yet if he had found a re fpedable body bf crick Intanti to return him as their reprefentative, wai his petition to he rejes red? and was he to be elictuded the privilege of repr-efenting becaufe he was not a Jew, a Jefult, a Pagan, or a blaboznetan Ilecaufe any of thole having the means of qualification may Make therofelves : and is a perfon to be excluded becaufe he is of the Ehablithed 'Church, and becaufe he bears a gopd charader : for he had the happi lief. to bear a good charader forty years ago. A Pupil Prieft may get rid of his clerical funitions by a clifpenfa tion from the Pope ;—in the Church of England every man is his own Pope—he abfolves hiusfelf, and he difpenfei for himfclf. The Noble Lord had laid, he viand to make the diftindion braider be tween the Clergy and the People; if that was his °Ned, let him bring in a BiU to that died; but if he did fo, it was an innovation, and contrary to the principles of the Reformation, the objea of which had been, to do away the dittindion between the Clergy and the People, and blend them more clofely together. It was Paid the other day, that if a clergyman who had committed adultery fhould hlre.been difninted, and afterwards elated to a •eabqoshatlioufe ; would he not be eligible ? He cafif 'not be abjelted to upon the principle of his helai**oll4llyrnan, becaufe he was deprived of the tuadsucCal be reamed the Houfc could not e ohjed to Wm *sok be hiul been op adulterer. • The Houfe has been told that aceoriling to canto ) , a perfon who voruntarily lays afide his 'clerical charader is fubje&ed to excommunication, but that this excommunication does not deprive him of his clerical charader. In order to get diyefled of this charader, he fuppored he mutt then commit fome crime which would fubjea him to depofition ; for inftance, imitate the condo& of the Rev. Gentle man who was a few days ago convicted of adul tery. By committing adultery, a perfon who is in lioly Orde; s may become eligible to a Seat in the Houle: but excommunication, in confeqoence of a voluntary ! and not criminal ad, only delivers him over to the devil, leaves him (till his charader as a Clergyman, and (till ineligible. In oppofition to this Canon, on which fo much firers has been laid, he begged Ivan to read another, as much in force at the prefect day as the other.--;[Mr.Tooke here read it, and by it all Clergymen who exor , die, or attempt to exit diet devils, or to wife evil fpirits, are declared fubjeet to the puniihment of depofitionl.Now, if he had given any fuch of. fence; for ;aflame, if be had attempted to cart out Hdeyil out of any Gentleman. a Member of that oufe, he would have been eligible to a kit in it. But becaufb he had voluntarily, innocently, withoot giving offence, laid afide his office as a Clergyman, he was to he declared ineligible to a feat in the Hours. ge mutt be guilty of fome crime, it teems, before he can be eligible. It real ly put him in mind of the girl who went to the Magdalen Hotpital, and applied 'for admiffion. She was anfwered, that there was indeed a place vacant in the houfe ; but use was &fired to Rate her claims to admittance. a How was you ruin ed ? How feduced ?"--a Lord, Sir ! (replied the girl) me reduced! I am as innocent as the child unborn." She was then told, that if The was in ' nocent The could not poflibly be admitted ; but if the yzifbed to gain admillion, (he mutt go away and qualify herfelc for the fitoation. Similar was the language which had been held to him. As to the rear in Of the queftion, he had a few more ob fervations to make. rt is the duty of Members of that Honk to watch over the public fafety, and to endeavour to prevent or remove the dangers which threaten it. But with this it is Paid the Clergy have no right to interfere. What, (hall a perfon in Holy Orderi on board a Ship not put his hand to the pump to Pave the Vreffel from finking ? or handle a buhket to put' ut a fire? This is not the • language ni Seftaries, but of reafon and common kale. "It here occurred to him to mention one thing which he ought to have mentioned before. There are three teamed Profeffions, Law, Phyfic, - and Divinity. In all civilized fociety each of thefe Protections are guarded againll the intrufioa of ig norance, left the ignorant fhould be impofed upon by the ignorance of other men pretending to know ledge. In the two former profeftions after the re qiiillte knew/ledge is afcertained by formal exami nation, the Candidates for them acquire ti,e full right to perform all their duties. , But there is a difference in the third Profeffion, which neither the Noble Lord or the Right Hon. Gentleman Teem to hate been aware of. A perfon may be formally ordained and admitted to Holy Orders, and yet have no right to perform any one of the duties of the Clerical Charader. Before he can have a right to perform any one of there duties, preach, adminifier the Sacrament, or baptize, he mutt have fome be nefice in the Church, and the moment he lays afide that beneffce he again lofes his right to perform Clerical Duties But it would not be difficult to prove that a Clergyman may be as ukful as another man in civil or military affairs. The cafe of the famous Dr. WALRIRovho bravely defended Lon donderry during its liege by JAMES 11. is well known. • Xitig•Wizziao was anxious to reward him by Iseflovnng on him a Bflhopric. The Bithops interfered, and laid, this man has indeed performed great fervices ; but his hands have been imbrued in blood, and, he cannot be a Bifhop. King WILLIAM was anxious to reward him in fome other .way i and as he could not make him a Bifhop, he gave him a Regiment, and Dr. then Colonel W , was afterwards killed, fighting gallantly by his fide. Mr. Tooas then mentioned a number of cafes, which he argued to be ;neon/114ot with the dodrinea held by the Noble Lord. He Paid there bad lately. been a Member of this Houfe, a perfon In Holy Orders, and Colonel of a Regiment of Mi litia--(His same cow called for, but not given)—Ro iiNeost the Bifhop of Dublin, was Lord Privy Seal ; Lord CIIOLMONDILIY held two Livings in the Church; Dr. PILITTY MAN, the Bifhop of Lin coln, was at one time Secretary to Mr. PITT; I)oaor O'Beiaw I, Whop of Meath, was Secre- , tory to the Duke of PORTI.AND ; the prefent Bifhop Of'Dsiter takes his Scat in the Houle of Lords as Earl of &envoi, ; the Arclibilhop of CASH I x takes his Scat in the fame Houfe as Lord SOMEILTON ; Mr. Goapoa, an intimate friend of the late Clerk 0 the Houfe, Mr. HA TULL and a Layman, was prefented fo the Living of Madras, and he finithed by being a Commit loner of the Vidualling Office, which he had no hopes of doing. The late Mini fler himfelf, Mr. PITT, recommended to hit Majeity to dignify with a Peerage, ander the name and title of Lord Howes, a perfon in Holy Orders, holding two Livings, and a Magiftrate in the Country.--Mr. Toosa concluded with cautioning the Hoare to take care at leaft that they abed le gally, and to make the Law before they enforced it. Mr. &moo entered into an extenfive view of the fubjed, illuftraiing with great minutenefs of Itatement the &ems) precedents which Teemed to him to invalidate the right of perfons in Holy Orders to a feat in the Reprefentatire body of the Commons of England. He infifted on the terms of the writ to the eledors, infiruding them to ehoofe Knights, Citizens, and Burgeffes, to none of which chains the clergy belonged in the more ancient times of our,biflory, and inferred that their eonfequent ineligibility was thus clearly efiablilhed. He contended that they never did at any time mix with the Reprefentative podyaf the People in the management of their property, but fat at different times, and were lubjed to peculiar regu lations. Having at much length attempted to (hew that hifiory, precedent, and law authority, made again& their right, he. in conclulioxi, ad -1 verted to the conk...peaces wltif,l2 would With from the recognition of the right, contending that the ditatarge of Parliamentary duty would necef farily involve a neglea of the offices of di& facred an important funaion. Mr. Vox rote next, and at confiderable length, combated the arguments adduced in fupport of the on motion. Though he differed entirely' from the Right Honoorable Gentleman who had moved the Order of the Day as to the grounds of this motion, and though he was pot by any means convinced that this was the moft prudent way of getting rid of the original quettion, ftillhe was content in the prefent inflance to rapport the mo tion, for the purpofe Qt difpofing of the motion of the noble Lord, add proteiling the Honfe from a vote which he conceived would be highly uncon aitutional in itfelf, and dangerous in its confe quences. After having heard the Right Honour able Gentleman esprcfs himfelf fully convinced of the inexpediency of the motion of the noble Lord, he had hoped that he would have been difpded to go the full length of giving a decided negative to the principle •of the Motion ; but without entering into any examination of the confiftency_ahis con duet, he was glad to have the Right Honourable Gentleman's litppOrt, however obtained. The Houle were placed in a Itrange fanatic% when it was thought proper to alert that a particular law exifted 14 the stage of Parliament, but it was at the 'brae time admitted that it would be more confifteitt with the maxims of wifdom and difcre. tion to difpenfe with its esercife. Without going into any difcuflion on the right which the Houk polfeffed to difpenfe ith laws in particular cafes, he was willing to accede to the motion for the Order of the Day as a means of putting an end to I the general question for ever. The queftion fub mined to the Houle was one materially involving a right of the•Conflitution, in fo far as refpated the whole body of the clergy, and this therefore led at once to an examination of thole precedent, on which this right was attempted to be denied. it was (toted by Gentlemen on the other fide, that there were many inflances where the circumftancc of perfons being in Holy Orders was declared to be a ground of ineligibility. On the other hand, he would affert that there was only one folitary intlance where any fuch declaration was made, and that too in a cafe where the circumfiances were of a peculiar nature. Was it declared in the precedents which were offered to the Houle, that the perfons ejeaed were ineligible becaufe they were in Holy Orders ? No ; it was on the con trary exprefsly declared in the cafe of Newell, that he was ineligible, not becaufe he belonged to the body of the clergy ; not becaufe he had been ad mitted to prieft's orders, but folely becaufe lie was or might have been, a Member of Convocation. The fame obfervation applied to the other prece dents, where the feat in the Convocation was ex plicitly mentioned as operating to their exclufion from the right of fitting in Parliament. He was unable, therefore, to conceive why the Houfe were to be repeatedly told that, in the Records of Parliament, Holy Orders were fpecified as form ing a bar to the validity of an election, when in the very words of the precedents produced, a dif ferent caufe was particularly dekribed. If in &ad of this, it was faid, that the clergy were in eligible as Members of Convocation, there would be a fair ground of argument where this affertion could be held, when the powers of the Convoca tion had sealed to be exercifed as in the ancient times of our hiltory. But the Noble Lord had chofen to alien, that even now the powers of this body exifted in their full force, and that they might henceforth refume all their former func tions. He had trolled that this phantom of the Convocation had difappeared for ever, for he had long conceived all its powers to have expired. He could not refrain from quoting on the prefent oc carton two lines of an Englifh Poet, where he in troduced common fenfe as a queen governing the world by her Tway, Boa, Common Scare, whilft thou on earth het reign, The convocation ne'er (hall meet again; The influence of' that queen he was willing to al low had been much felt, in the late counfels or plans of the rulers of this country, nor were his hopes of her future dominion of the moll fanguine kind. He could not Infer himfelf however for a moment to believe that the national charaaer was fo degraded, fir loft to every feeling of its own im portance and dignity, as ever to fubmit to the revival of the convocation in our land. He knew not how the Gentlemen on the other fide were to get over the dilemma, that the Clergy fince 1664 were permitted to have a vote in the elation of the Reprefentatives of the People,whilll they fire nuoufly contended againft their right of obtaining a Seat in that Houle where there Reprefentatives were to be afrembled. If it was find that, after the right of the Clergy to tax themfelve; ceafed, this ngbt of voting was eflabliffied by tacit com paa, it might be milked, why the right of fitting was not conceded on the fame principle ? The only principle flared on the records of' Parliament for their exclution front chit latter privilege was, that they wero'liembers of Convocation ; but this hav ing been abolifhed, the exclufive operation of the pnnciple was deftroyed. As the right of voting was eftabliffied by a fort of tacit compact, how might not the right of fitting be eflablilhed in a fl- Ini4r manner ? It was no argument fufficient to invalidate this fuppofition, that no Statute to this ef feawas to be found, fince it appeared that the right of voting was exercifed for 47 yeah previousto the formation of any Statute ;.yet no doubt whatever could reafonably be ente.rtained that during the whole of this interval the right was fully and - freely exercifed. The previous exclufion was declared to originate folely from the right of the Clergy to fit in Convocation; but, when this right could nolo:tiger be exeisifed ' • when the realm: of the 1-aWc(Stelpfion had ceafed to operate, it was fair to conclude that the Law was no longer in force. The Law which was founded on the powers vetted in the Clergy to fir a feparate rate of taxa tion was no longer expedient when the. right of taxation had coifed. In point of faa, the prece de*: iu the Report all Rated the exclufion on this fad, however' Gentlemen chofe to make unfupport ed'aertions about Holy Orders. At the period particularly alluded to, it was trot that this fort of language began to be held by certain individa als, but in no C3ie was it employed by the Houfe in their fi:vcral orders on the fubjea. If, however. the circumstance of being in Holy Orders was, as had been arrued, the real ground of excl nfion, how could it be accounted for that fuc,h terms were fo carefully avoided, and the right to a feat in the Convocation was the tingle ground on which the Houfe came to a decifion ? Nor was the cafe of Craddock at all irreconcileabk with this ftatement, Grace it was in the period when the flatute of 1641 was in force, that be was excluded on the ground of being in Holy Orders ; but when that statute ' was repealed, matters were reftored to their antient footing. On the fair foundation of law and pre cedent there was therefore, nothing which could area the right of the Honourable Gentleman to a feat in the Houfe. But other Ikons rcafons for this excitation had been produced, and a particular allufion had been made to the language of the , Clergy to Elizabeth, wheo praying for admiffion to feats in the Houfe, and hence it was endeavour. ed to be (hewn bow dangerous the introdu&ion of the Clergy mint be to the intereftsof the People. But what was in fa& the meaning of this petition, on which fo much firers teemed to be placed', It was not raid by the Clergy, " Suffer us to become the reprefentatives of the people, and thus rive us an opportunity to fupport your pi Cletilai,./*+bILIL it was, in fubltance, allow us to fit by your love. reign appointment, or in other words, without having been eleaed at all, and thus fecure us to your will. But Inch language in the mouth of peo pie, wifhing to fit without eleaion, was furely no argument againft the right of other perfons to a place in Parliament who were fairly and unobjec tionably:eleeted. Nor was he to be told by perfons who teemed to confider the prefervation of a par. ticular clafs, which were not unfrequently the obje& of reproach to others, that the people of Old Sarum were not entitled to proteaion in the perfon of their Reprefentative, againft whofe claim no cafe had been proved. gut here recourfe was had to antient learning, and an antiquarian lawyer was to come forward and tell the Houfe, that the Clergy were ineligible, becaufe he had endeavoured to Phew that formerly they did not come under any of the defcription of perfons whom the writ embraced. This he could not help confidering, as one of the molt extraordinary caufes of ineligibility ever produced. For was it not notorious to every one, however limited might be his information, that the Clergy at this mo ment were fully competent to the difcharge of all the duties implied in the charaaer of thefe feve ral or could it be denied that they were, in a variety of cafes, aaually difcharged with honour to themfelves, and honour to the country ? As to the general principle of eligibility, he was unwilling to (tate a broad, general propofition to the Houk, but he conceived it might be aliened with truth, that where no pofitive flatute interven ed, every clafs in the community were elegible, and this obfervation was fufficient to mark his opi nion of the particular cafe. On the other quef tion. of the power of the clergy never to lay down their chara&er, he profeffed himfelf lets qualified to judge, but if, as the Honourable Gentleman had (hewn, the as of others originating from particular was of condo& in individuals of the body could enfure depofition, and confequentlyua , the lots of this char:after, he mutt own that the Honourable Gentleman's ftatements were info perable. But the Houfe were told to beware of the dreadful confequences that would refult from the admiflion of the Clergy to a feat in Par liament, and to tremble at the evils of fo imprudent a communication with Legiflative privileges. He wifited to know, however, what difference there was in the Conftitution of the Houfe of Lords, and of that Houfe, which rendered their Seat in the one not only harmlefs but ufekl, and in the othcr dangerous and deftruftive ? To him, then, there teemed to be only two grand diftinftions betwixt the two Houfes. The other Houfe could alone as as a Court of Appeal from the inferior Courts, while in this Houfe was lodged the difpofal of the national treafure. He wished to know, then, what pollible danger could refult from the pretence of the Clergy in the one Houfe, which was not now experienced in the other? Till this could be clearly explained, he should content himfelf with viewing all the popular arguments on this tub jeft as altogether nugatory. Was it not as true of the Bifhopi who fit in the one Houfe, as of the inferior Clergy, that it was their duty to devote themfelves to the duties of their facred charafter ? Befides, was it not to be considered that every Clergyman might be created a Peer, and in that. cafe his eligibility would not be cisfputed.— On the fame principle, it was not to be forgotten that Clergymen might in a variety of cafes be here ditary Noblemen, and they too would fit in the other Houfe without the fmallea attempt being made to oppofe their title. From this view of the fubjea, did it not appear how fallacious were the arguments drawn from popular conliderations— of the danger of allowing Clergymen to fit as Iso. prefentatives oldie Commons of England? Mr. Fox, after illuftrating this view of the rub. jea at tome length, and touching on feveral other topics, concluded his very able fpeech by giving his fupport to the motion for the previous queftirat. Sir Wae. Scorr Paid it was necelTary to look to the Canon Law before a queftion of this kind cou'd be decided. There was no pofition more clear than this, that by the Canon Law any man who had devoted himfelf to the Mioiftry was, during the remainder of his life, incapable of changing that fitaation into which he entered. The Hon. Gentleman oppofite him might fay, indeed, that he had voluntarily refigned his funaions ; but he knew as well as any man that he (till had it in his power to claim all the pirivileges belonging to the Clergy ; and that if , after having obtained a pre. ferment in the Church, he fhould come to him (Sir W. Scott) as Vicar General cf the diocek of Canterbury, he could not objea to him as a Lay. man. The prohibition which a Clergyman might labour under again(' detattng his funeions, was not a privation of his clerical charaaer, but a fuf, penfion from the exercife r and it that furpenaon continued during his life, be was Mill a Clergy &Dan ; and he cold not wither by any aft of his