Star. — London, England, 1825-02-15 00:00:00

' -- r - Mr. NORTH deeleite4 that his Opinion of 'tie pre. l 'sent measure was, that it would advance the cease of the Catholics, and state how it the stigma which tile_ viotende and folly of some inefficient Men had cast upon It. The Hon. and Learned -Gentleman who had just At down, had promulgated a great number of general ptittciples, tq all of which he assented, but considered that he failed when he came to the application of them. There he :brook from the true question before the House, and eatrencheckhimself behind the strong bul wark f the Catholic Cause. If it were admitted that the Common; House of Parliament represented the peo ple according to the spirit of the Constitution, he thought it must necessarily follow that any other assembly, pro kissing to represent the people, must be a violation of 4 thiConstitution. This then, was the question as regarded k , e Catholic Association. He cared not how it was Seected, nor by whom, whether it was voluntary or not, !'6 lOng as they were afterwards confirmed the represen litives of the people. It was indifferent to him how the mischief came, so that it actually existed. If any 'stranger were found in his house in actual possession of his property, controuling his servants, and threatening his life, he would not stop to inquire whether he was let in by the door or got in by the: window, but proceed at once to eject him. So if he found the Catholic As sociation seducing the affections of the people from the legitimate object of the Commons House of Parliament, he should consider himself called upon to suppress them. Now, Mr. O'Connell told the Association he did not care for the shadow, it was the substance he looked to, and that they possessed. "Do we not," said he, represent the people? Ask the Priests, ask the people 'who pay their money, and look at the members ea-' rolled r It was a question whether this state of things was not attended with imminent danger to the peace of ille country? He knew that 10,0001. or 100,0001. rent was very little to procure Emancipation ; but the question did not rest there. The greatest evil had es caped the attention of the House. He alluded to the Catholic Rent. Every meeting on that subject was a minor association, held in every part of the country. Those meetings were in the abodes of persons, in Chapels and distant parts, where the conductors were not under the censorship of the press. This he consi dered a great evil ; the meetings were under the super intendence of the Catholic Poesthood. In Dublin all went out publicly. It was circulated in the country, and came back dark and poisonous. One was a dark stream of religious rancour, the other a turbulent whirl pool bf political animosity. Front the disposition of his mind, he should be the first to excuse the ebullition of a popular assembly, but there was something in the-de bates of the Catholic Association which applied to the darker periods. There had been things done which some of the Catholic Association did not feel conscien tiously to be their own sentiments. He knew Mr. O'Connell, and was sure there was something which governed that Gentleman, and told him all the mea sures of the Association.were not those he could sup port. Ministers and Masters were placed above him. It was stated in the proceedings of the Catholic Asso ciation, that all werecif one mind. Was that the case ? These was emulation in violence. What was cool and temperate to-day, was violent yesterday. The Asso ciation next year, if suffered to exist, would be more violent than this. He might ask whether the proceed ings of its members wele in accordance with the prin ciples of the Constitution ? chknge or fluctuate as they might, their Measures were those of irritation. Their aim was to vilify every man in private • life, whom they considered hostile to their objects. The Right Hon. Secretary for Ireland had stated two cases in which there had been a most outrageous attempt to charge a person with murder, and 'a soldier with a disposition to procure unlawful oaths. -There was an acquittal in both cases. An 11-nourable and Learned Gentleman said those cases proved nothing. How did' it happen they were acquitted? Why, truth, as it generally is, was apparent, but if truth had not been distinguished, and there had been a conviction, what would the prosecutors have said ? It had been assumed there was a maladminis tration of justice, and that the Institution had proved a check upon it. He denied there had been any mal administration. He had practised at the Irish Bar since 1811, and from the acquittal of Doctor Sheridan, down to the prosecution against Mr. O'Connell, he had never known a perversion of justice—(Hear,hear). He begged the House to attend to the recommendation of the great advocate of the Catholic Association. Cobbett told the, Catholic Aisociation two months since to draw up a statement of the acts of oppression of which they cores plained. If they gave that statement to the people of England, they would attend to it more than long speeches. That was sensible advice, but they did not attend to it. The acts of oppression had no foundation but in the wicked plans of those who fabricated them. The Member for Limerick spoke of acts of oppression. Had he named any? It was said they might obtain tranquillity through the medium of the Association, but admitting that to be so, would not the Parliament pay too dear for it ? Was it not putting an iron sceptre into the hands of the Association, and a reed in the hand of• the Marquis of Wellesley ? He would not accept tran quillity on such ternis. The voice which called for peace with deadly hatred of a fellow-man *as unnatural. It was impossible to preserve peace by won king on the best feelings of Ireland. With respect to the Orange L) dges, of which so muc h h a d b een sa id, t h e very name of Orangeman implied everything detestable to the Ca tholics. It was a cloak in their ideas for everything odious. He might fairly presume, that by the term Orangemen, the Catholics of Ireland meant Protestants. As against the Orangemen they said they could not be tranquil, bat cherish against them eternal enmity. He knew there were some who would resist such sentiments, but they had not come forward to contradict them. Lord Killeen b a d come f orwar d i n a manner werthy. his ancient house and noble name. He was surpi ised ether Catholic Noblemen and Gentlemen did not come forward to rescue their cause from such hands. In his opinion, his fellow -countrymen would never obtain their object whilst they continued to hold towards Pro testants a feeling alienative—(Hear, hear). By holding tut the right hand of conciliation they could only ho pe to succeed. It had been s aid, t he Catholic Association !ass counter-association. He denied that assertion.— When did it come forward ? Not before the Orange men were discarded by Government, and the arm of Power was raised to crush them. If the Orangemen should again rally, which Heaven forbid, the disorder which might ensue would be occasioned by the Catho lics. The Bibl e S oc i et i es h ad been charged with being the cause of the outrages on the part of the Associa. bon, but no OtAll who knew the excellent and exem plary manner in w hich those Societies acted, could give the least credit to such a statement. The Association should be put down by force, and unless the Catholics wished to heap coals of lite on their own heads, they 1 .. , . arouldaot oppose the good fedi* of their Protestant fslow.subjects. Having dueling his madasents ea this important subject, he should mons to kuiaad, where he knew Ise might be deprived of the regard and eases W ad marry who should, NAV' madding, receive estivate-thine' - War sentiments might di or from his owls. He saw the soonsfty Of supporting the Hill. be cause Ike would keep up the spiiit of tie Constitution-4 Hear !):•-- ' that pan of the Ouustitution which made Padianient the sole au thority for laws, besauss it he up the dignity of the law and Go , 'ferment, and preserved the peace ot the country. Dr. LUSHINGTON animadverted upon the attack of the Honourable Member for Londonderry (Mr. Daw son) upon the whole body of the Catholics. He denied the justice of estimating any society or any individual by one or twaisolated acts. He might instance this very House to shew the injustice of such a mode of judging; for would that House be estimated according to the expressions that certain Members might use ? He could make reference, too, to another society, of which the Righ t H onoura bl e Se cretary for the Home Depart ment (Mr. Peel) was President, and Mr. Speaker was a member : he might as well name it at once—" The University Club." Certain books were subscribed for by that Club. Well, on looking into the records of that Society he found,.for he did not pretend to know much about its forms, but in the records he found it propo,ed to have " The Memoirs of Harriette Wilson" ordered —(Loud laughing.) The next entry he found was .‘ A plain Bible proposed," rejected—(lntinense laughter.)— The 4 , Memoirs of a Woman of Pleasuie" was among them ; but he would not hurt the feelings of Noble Lords and Honourable Gentlemen, Members of that Noose— (Question, question) by more minute allusions. He only would put this to the House, if they would do him the ho nour to hear him: suppose it were proposed to put down such a Club as that to which he had alluded, would it not be an easy matter to declaim against it as a Society that took in the most licentious books and re jected the Bible?—(Hear, hear.) Oppression must ne cessarily take place when too great privileges were en joyed by any party. The privileges r,f the Church of Ireland were its weakness, and would be its destruction. With respect to the proclamations of the Association, but one sentence could be fixed upon of an objectionable nature. This, however. when rightly understood, was harmless. In passing the present penal enactment he was convinced that the House would not si lence Use eloquence of Mr. O'Connell, or suppress the efforts of the Catholic Priests. `The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER then rose, and a general attention was rest red in the House and Galleries. He spoke as follows ;—Exhausted as I perceive Ilse House is with the pr..tracted discussion which has now been continued for three nights, and hopeless as I certainly am that any observation I can offer can add any force or variety to the powerful ar guments that have been on all sides advanced, yet I I confess that I feel most anxious to state to the House the reasons that influence me in rising to address them under such circumstances. I feel that anxiety, not merely because the question itself is of pecuiia portance, but also because, during the discussions, ob. servations have been made, having, I may say, a per sonal application, and therefore, I think, demand (rum me, as a Member of the Administration, an unequivocal' reply. But, first, I take leave to observe, that during the whole of the debate—and the circumstance, from the view I have taken,of the question, is a subject of no small satisfaction—nb one Gentleman, however deter. mined in his opposition to the principle of the proposed Bill, has either directly or distinctly attem,;ted to de fend the existence or the acts of the Catholic Associa tion—( Hear, hear).—True they have en, eavoureJ to account for its existence—true they have assumed that its existence arose from the situation in which a great portion of thc people of Ireland are placed. Not one opposer of the present measure has defended that As sociation, from the very first Gentleman who answered, the speech of my Right Honourable friend who intro. Iluced it (Mr. Goulburn), down to the last speaker, ie. eluding even the eloquent address of the Honourable Member, whose influence was so deservedly great in that House (Sir James Mackintosh.) On the contrary, all those Gentlemen most studiously avoided any such defence ; indeed, the whole gist 'of their hostility went to the assumption that the Bill ought to be defeated, because there existed another remedy,which,if adopted, rendered the enactment altogether unnecessary— that the denial of that remedy arose from the constitu tion of the present Administration, and to the principles on which that Administration were founded—most par ticularly to that part of it which had heretofore de clared their opinions in favour of the remedy, and to whom all the evils of Ireland were to be attributed at this moment. As I am in that very situation, Sir, to which such a weighty responsibility has been affixed— as I feel most fully the extent and character of that responsibility, and shOuld regret, deeply regret, that any act of mine could be fairly made accountable for those evils which, I candidly allow, the situation of Ireland presents—(Hear, hear, from all sides of the House) — I have, as I before said, been most anxious to express my sentiments, and especially to declare myself to this House—( Hear).—l must be allowed to say, however, that I do not think, that in throwing out these imputa tions, jestice has been done to the Government. I do not think that those who have so unsparingly indulged them have condescended (and it was most material for a candid view of the subject) to recollect the circum stances under which the present Administration was formed—(Hear.) —The Administration which pre ceded it—l mean that of which the late Mr. Percival was the head—was determinedly opposed to the repeal of the Catholic restrictions as a question of Govern ment. The members of that Administration, in their views on that subject, though united as to the end, dif fered, no doubt, as to the motives which influenced them. Some were opposed to the repeal of these re strictions from an opposition to the principle; others on the ground of inexpediency. On the death of Mr. Percival, by an Act of this House, followed up by an Address to the Crown,the remaining part of that Admi nistration were left in a most singular situation. That Address called for the-establishment of a Ministry who would possess the public confidence. In consequence of such a declaration on the part of the House of Com mons, various. negotiations took place amongst the great political parties of the country. These negocia tions failed—failed, I must be allowed to state, from the inexplicable blunders of those who would now visit us with those consequences which their own conduct produced—( Hear, hear).—For if the state of Ireland is of that complexion which they draw—if soca evils as they predict are to follow from the want of the re medy which they prescribe, let it be recollected, that it was the Honourable Gentlemen opposite, who now remind us of our responsibility, that threw away their own chance—(Hear).—Under such circumstances, the presert Government was formed, and by the circum stances of the period, like all other human establish ments, it was controuled. That the question, as to Ire land, remained in the situation in which it stands, is an evil I shall never deny—(Cheers from all parts of the I It ic re Id 11 rie bI ITV . • _ • • .• Finste).—llow was it to be avoided? Is k not the l inevitable condi t i on o f G overnments to take circum stances as they are? It is so, and the mixed affairs of nations will not admit of Utopian fancies. The my- dation: failed--the`mintry most have a Government, And thit constituency of idministration was fot med which existing circumstances commanded—( Hear). — Are we, then, to be con s idered 'responsible for evils which'[ do not deny, which eiisted before and at the time of our formation, and for which it was i npossible, from the very state of parties in this country,to pravide a remedy ?—(Hear, hear).—Such being the real and undeniable state of the case, with what justice can we be now reproached fur having consented to take office; •aad if we ought not to be reproached for the accept ance, why, I ask, are we to be considered 'culpable for :remaining? —(Near, hear.)—But, say the Hon..u t: Able Members opposite, .‘ You ate now a strong :Administration; you are (as they s 'metimes admit) deset.redly popular; you are in the progre.sive reali zation of a new system, therefore now is the time for you, who differ with a part of your colleagues, to turn round upon them, and break up the Admi nistration, or carry the point on which you dilFet. —These are the taunts which have been thrown out against us. Such are the grounds on which the Hon. Members opposite have, during the present discussion, 'so repeatedly thrown ingenious-1 feel justified in say 111g—unworthy sarcasms, when they assume that such and such a measure is to be attributed to a pertinacity of adhering to place, and fix upon any one Member of the Cabinet as the sole author of such a policy. 1 declare unequivocally, that there exists not the slightest foundation for such a charge. It is not just to fix it upon the Noble and Lear ned Lord (Elton) who has been:so attacked—(Hear). The Noble Lord at the head of the Treasury would disdain such a policy (Hear, hear, hear). Is it chargeable upon my Right lion. Friend near me (Mr. Carmiag)? Nobody ever ven tured to attt ibute to him such a feeling—(Cheers). But were we, who have given our support to the Repeal of the Restriction Laws against the Catholics, to act upon the instructions of the Hon. Gentlemen opposite, to act upon the recommendation of the Hon. Gentlemen, in what a character should we present ourselves to the country and the world. Were we thus to turn round upon our colleagues, who on that question conscienti onsly differ from us, I should consider it nothing less than an act of gl-eat treachery (Hear, hear, hear). IV what a light would men who thus discarded the prin. ciples of integrity exhibit themselves to an honest Par liament, and to an enlightened people (Hear, hear, hart) What would be the result as to the very mea sure for which not a sacrifice of principle was made? It is my bpinion, that men who could prove them selves so insensible to justice, would, by the act, in capacitate themselves from carrying any measure the, pressed, much more a measure, which I do believe, even under present circumstances, and the state of public feeling, it is impossible to effect—(Hear, hear). S 6 far as my knowledge of the public sentiments extends, and I have not been an inattentive observer on the question, I do believe that at this moment there exists in this country a strong indisposition against the Ca.' tholic claims —(Hear.) And I do most sincerely be lieve, thaethe increased repugnance to that measure at the present moment is mainly to be attributed to the acts of this Catholic Association—(Hear.) It is always to be borne in mind, that the question passed even this Howie with no very great majority. In the other House of Parliament a very strong majority decided against it. Amongst the great body of the clergy, a very powerful opposition to it prevails. Such a feeling, without casting any reproach on that respectable body, is most natural, even were we to suppose them insen sible to higher interests, and only actuated, which, I am persuaded, is not the fact, by the interests of their 'order. Was it not natural that such a body should view with jealousy the extension of political power to a rival Church, which they believed to view with hos silky, not only their establishment, but even, if he I might say, their mode of faith ? Every man who re lieved on the lakence the Catholic Priesthood exerted over their flocks, must at least admit that such a jea lousy was, to say the least, excusable. But though I see great difficulties at present, I by no means think that the Honourable Gentlemen opposite are justi ,kd in representing, or rather misrepresenting, the opinions of my Right Honourable Friend near me (Mr. Canning), and which I say they have done, when they have assumed that he considered the possibility of carrying the repeal hopeless.— He never has made such an assertion. Who that re traces the history of human affairs, particularly in modern times, that is not struck with changes so im portant and unexpected, that they almost appear mira culous ? It is because human action so frequently illus trates such a variation of opinion, that I most certainly do not despair of yet seeing a great change, even on the Catholic Question, effected in the public mind of this countiy—(Cheers). A great change has been al ready effected in this House. I watched its progress, and as :I am myself an example -of what time and thought can effect, I ought to be the last man to despair on this i great subject—(Hear). For, Sir, I freely avow, that all my earliest impressions were strongly against it (Cheers). I once thought, as many honest men now think, that between Papal and arbitrary power there existed an in separable connection. I have, as my experience and Sea n s of information increased, lived to form a morel eorrect,oPinion—(Cheers). I shall never be ashamed, here or elsewhere, to avow a previous error, and to take credit for a more sound view of any question. I, there fore, ought to be the last man to doubt a gradual Ichange m the public mind, at the same time that I feel, 'from circumstances, that at this very moment it is, fear, improper to realise my own wishes on the subject. I do believe a strong repugnance to the question pre. vails in this country. I should be very glad, Sir, if I were mistaken in this opinion ; but it is my firm belief, that there exists a general prejudice, if it may be so called, a feeling of disinclination and hostility on that subject. on the part of the great majority of the people, which no power can at present overcome, and which would prevent any Administration, howevcr com posed, from passing a measure of Emancipation.— Most fatal to that question, I am persuaded it would be, were any Administration to be formed laying it down as the basis of their union, and after .wards-finding that it was impracticable to carry it. Such a failure would have the most injurious effect, and would throw the probable success of the question at least half a century back. It was with this view of the subject that I exposed myself to the reproach of belong ing to a Government in which that question stands in the condition in which it is with the present Government. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman who has just sa: down says, that it is not enough that the measure may be convenient, but that we must shew that it is necessary. 1 , -.. •••• • •r . Certainly; if convenience atone were suicient to jab* such a neeasnre,we might have proposed* long ago. We might have proposed it last year; but we did not think that we were justified in proposing it tietilthe conduct of the Society rendered it absolutely necessarj , . Last year the Catholic Association had not assumed the fortis it has since assumed. Mani of their most indefensible acts had not taken place. That, for instance, on which so mdcit has already been saiJ,that I feel almost ashamed of again mentioning it—l mean &heir interference with the administration of justice. The Hon. and Learned Member for Nottingham seemed to think that he had fully answered my Right Honourable Friend on 4 thal part' of the subject, by drawing a distinction between persons prosecuted by such a Society as the Constitutional As:cciation, and "such a Society as the Catholic Association—that the former prosecuted political Jibe's only, and that the latter did not interfere with political questions. But the H•mourable and Learned Gentleman entirely forgot that, in Ireland, whatever question the Catholic Association took a part in, it i•istairtly and necessarily became a political ques tion. Let it he an assault, let it be a rob!very, let it be any . ther offence, political feeling immediately mingled with it. .. The Catholics," say the Association, ‘e can not get justice without our interference and aid." 13y that declaration, and by the acts which followed it, the Catholic Association have constituted every case in which they engage, a political question ; and thus have they exposed themselVes to every one of those theore tical arguments which the Honourable and Learned Member for Nottingham urged with such force per haps, against the Constitutional Association. Sir, I perfectly concur with the Honourable and Learned Gentleman that it is not desirable that, either here or : anywhere else, there should exist an Association for the purpose of instituting prosecutions by subscription— (Hear, hear, hear). I was never a party to the Consti tutional Association, and I have, therefore, a greater right to condemn the Association against which the proposed measure is particularly directed. But the Honour able and Learned Member for Knaresborough says, that the prosecutions which have been carried on by the Catholic Association have been of little import. ance, and dwells much on the acquittals that have taken place. But the Honourable and Learned Gen tleman forgets all the antecedent proceedings—(Hear). He forgets that the Catholic Association assumed the fact, that murder had been committed; he forgets that they sent an agent to conduct the prosecution of the man so prematurely declared guilty ; he forgets the extreme unfairness of a trial under such circumstances, circumstances entirely at variance with the sentiments of that Address which the Honourable and Learned Gentleman cr innsented on in terms of high Praise. Did that Address stand as the sole act of the Catholic Asso ciation, it might justly deserve Iris eulogium ; but % hen we fills' persons laying down principles of that kind at one moment, and conductin g them s elve s i n d irect op position to those principles at another. it is uifficult to speak of such inconsistency in any other language - but that of disappr4baonn. With regard to the expression contained in that Address, of hatred to Orangemen, I have reallybeen quite surprised to hear the attemos that have been Made by Hon. Gentlemen to explaio it a way. In the disputes between the Catholics and Orangemen, whether recent or ancient, whether accide' tat -I other wise, why should poison thus be poured into ev -t y cup? The meaning of the phrase was l in teeth intelli. gible to the persons to whom it was addre.se 1 ; and to say, that to hate Orangemen was merely to declare that they were not partial to their oppressor,, is a warping of the expression, which, I repeat, surpi ised me ex ceedingly. It is said that the Address, to which lam now alluding, is peaceable in its character. But recol lect how recent it is. We all know what was the lan guage antecedently held by the Association. That language was not very peaceable, nor were the acts by which it was accompanied very peaceable. I do not wish to remark harshly on the conduct .1' individual members of the Association ; nor do 1 fir # moment con tend, . that the violence or absurdity of Mr. ('Connell, or Mr. Dromgoold, or any other person. is any reason why we should not.do what is just and i ight. That violence or absurdity would never prevent me . from voting for the Catholic Question, but *hen a e find violence, not only in words but in acts, manifestid by a body possessing so much po..er over the whole Cat!.o. lic population ut It elud, 1 carnet help then at i ill , uting great importance to the circumstance. I cannot avoid seeing its inevitable danger; its tendency to excite great animosities and tears on the part tit those Against whom the feeling is shewn, and to ptoJuce cr-tintero associations, the manifold evils of which 1 all. sure I need not point out. But then, Sir, we are told— , Do but pass the Catholic Question ; there's the remedy ; you will hear no more of the Lathotic A , sociation?..„ In the first place, Sir, I do not believe tilat, to pass the Catholic Question would produce general sad:. faction in Ireland. Although I am a friend to that question, I do not believe that its triumph would create univprsal content. It would cm taioly iersicive a grievance ; and, as far as that goes. wi uld do - good ;., but we must never forget, that while we are removing discontent in one part, by passing the Catho lic Question, we may be carrying fear, and, for aught I know, discontent, into anodic:. part. By such a step, the situation of the Protestants of Ireland would cer tainly be reversed. They are now possesed of the ascendancy. That would be at an end. The very circumstance of their inferiority in numbers would by no means tranquillize their minds; and it they found that the Catholics, not content with the acquisition of political power, wished for religious, and were anxious which it is uot impossible they might be) to over throw the existing Church Establishment in Ireland., such a dis covery would naturally create just, uneasiness and alarm. I really, therefore, do not know anything more likely than chat, it the Catholic Question were carried, that system of Associations, which seems so coi gem*, to the country, and, at all times, to be so much to its taste e a d ° s o t d u e b n f t a s i l i o l t c n y w ' w o w o u would d i ll id bedo the part of the Catholics. The different parties would ibttoyh a c t h o C u g reatnPt ( e O r e . t x e a s t t s e s 0 c a n I t ) . t , : I t ; P i ( but e ,n r s ii a on rbgal'c followedaArir ei c ar ri ed wd exist. It would therefore be, of all absurd policy the ilsheecosmagneeexbaistpeteriaatneidatoasintdiest.hwe o s u am id e ez v i u s i t le ti i i it at p a i t ej p u r d c i sen ee It most absurd, to leave the Associations in lreland . as they now are. %Vele we to pass the Catholic Question to morrow, I think the peace and tranquillity, and safety cf Ireland, would require that Parliament should pass an Act, putting down Associations in Ire land, which, under whatever pretence they may be formed, are always an evil. Ss far am I there. fore, front conceiving that the proposed Bill will be injurious to the Catholics, that, as their friend, I think the hou s e would act tcwards them were ----- .1 .iittllCS, Ulat, as tnetr trend, I mint _ act most unwisely and-injuriously at to reject it. harp we have been