Star. — London, England, 1805-05-11 00:00:00

L Item, and even more oppofite to their worthip than you are. I know not what reale of comparifon ought to he inilituted to 'regulate the claims of different bodies of men. I trust your Lordfitips muff fee the p , licy and juflice of conceffion to the Catholics.— Does not the continuance of the prefent fallen) tend to perpetuate and increafe ail the difficulties of which we complain? Admit all the charges again!" the Catholics, and then what is the courfe which this country i s t o p ur f ue.w i t h lime . trillions of fttbi: . as iaveterate in their hatred of all your eftaislithments? The one is that which was-adopted ;n -the reign of sheen Anne, and the other is that which has been warned ,with inch fiiccefs in the reign of his prefent - Majefty. On the fir!" fy acm, you moll begin by de . priving them of their cormilitutional. right 6 ;. then-of their property, arid the means cf acquiring .propei ; and !rally, 'educe them tarbefitnatiOnof aliens in their own cauutry. ''Pietro nts ',,iloispjng s...,urie: Neu art put 'diet ween&the:iltettiatives•nt` ; complete exclution, or the roffeffion w?ttc -the alienation of privileges. :- But illhe.alifpolitienei f. 2 people nee tr:i4,. the mcalbre of true wifdom is; -to alter and-aniellorate them. If, therefore ,. vin tc-; litfe to accede theirjequells, you • prevent thcmi -from forming an sittitchmeut to your Caovernmepr ;i land if you perceive that friar recent conchae - is IMP trf~ten; if ,yeu find •that tt fails to concilimi'm your • -interelts any orieuftime individuals wheria-yonfitonki •Wilb to have attached to you; why tmift this country 7perfill in a plan fo obnoxions to otfieri and afelefs to Well'? ItiOr propottioul in that cafe amounts but to thisi•we cannot ueprive the RomanCalbolics Of their property, that is placed by thelaws,heyond The reach of the Goverriment ; we cannot -.deprive them of their-natural-weight in fociety, and of thole franchifes and privileges which at preterit 'they pot lets;'but we .torment the more elevated ranks of hat-perfustfian, brrellraining them from attaiaing r,ie oldies of their ambition,.and hinder therm efFec sillily from ring tethe fummit of the profeillurri to which theyttray apply theinfelves. If this be not theirtiund on which the enemies of *the Catholics prticeedi.the - may 'argument that is left them feems tometo be this: we are now arrived at that parti. tqlar conjoin/tire at which we mull coma to it Rand. 6hpr it everthirprndetit or deferable for a, Legillature lerrefolve trpOti st rural celtstian in a meafure of filch wiratirre 'tills' rs ?. • -If it ever can be prudent or de &Ali; 4t itipil-he under Clrintirillances.of a very pe en)lar Itioefi-iind -of is very marked, palpable, and evident:clef-alp-ITT: But are fues the circom . fiansesaigsfir-which we are now iterated ? Your for.' titer concifkinrirto the Catholics have beenwite,4l4, acrd fittinity;but Wow ymn protold that tumult eras mienig .- the wimple; and. by way of A remedy for fo tliiftig • ati WOW,- you .prerpofe An take away all dlf. tinftiOrratwi-hte reward from thole to whom the People tire areetipmed to look up i by whofe•inilu-• atcce-thet aft: dire/Aid, and for whore injuries-they feel. if you mil place refiraints upon any, let thole reftrAnts be-it:Apt-tied on the perfons who may injure om r buts nett?' throw obitacles in the path of thofe if you tie not impede them, will labour fur your gond ; and who, after all, are the people whom hy your preterit refiriCtions you exclude ? Three or (our Catholic -Peers, wir^ not only are not difirffeEted towaretryoui"but have given repeated proofs of their loyalty, it the,"lazard• of their perfons, againa the foreign rd-Alotne.flie fees of their Soverergn ; thefe ire laded ; even • from •th e pnffr6ili . y of being placed isle tNliltioirft.-• Does. this • fyttem afford you any thiitilikefeturit ? &import theft Catholic -Peers m thiv - Houfe do you rhink-they could fttcce-ed in per- Tuading- you to alsolifis the Hierarchy that they 'Mould •perfuade you to defeit the religion- in which .yeattltive been educated or make war upon theCon btemOn tO-Which. Too ace attached ? I think there Ia norpan whoimagines it. Can you be afraid of it? On the tontrary,,ilit very eircumllances under which Bay • would be introduced, mull make them eager, qte every OteafiOn, to dilplay how worthy they were of the „privilege they had obtained. Oo 'to the -Houle Of Commons, you still fee that there, too, the enifchieFir - as :little to be dreaded. How ftr.all would be she number of Catholics elefted ! and to talican immoderate calculation, even if fifty members, one-half 'of the reprcfentation, fhould, in a long cOurfe of years, gain admifhion, of wb:.: poilible E.ittfequencecosmid - he a party•of comparatively fo lit tle impartanie•? if an evil difpolition exilled out of italeed you Might have.danger to ap- Prebend - from -men of fuck tonfequence as tome of the:C.athirlics in -Ireland. I will appeal to you all, if any mifehief hat occurred-from the mixture of Mem bers profeffing, a different religion from that of the Ch,urch, who have• been vetnrned from the'Kingdoin -of firotlandl • Has any man de fired:to-mot:dace -here the Prkbyterian. Govern simniq Jf .tbe• exclufion then of Catholics from Parli.iment be groom:Refs. streche other rethiitions you have thrull upon - them more confident with po licy ? They are excluded from the la.ve from the Army, an d from the Navy ;an unrearonable Itigina is thrown upon them ; yet, in the cantle of my life, which has not been a very long one, I have teen all the principal offices of the law filled by men, who, there is reafon to ruppore, had a Prefbyterian education ; among there were your Lorelfhip's prede oeffor on the woolfack, a Chief Jollies of the King's Bench, a Chief Jul - lice of the Common Pleas, a fdaf ter of the Rolls, and the yr.f.mt Chief Baron of the Exchequer. --I will venture to fay, that when they were appointed to their offices, there was no one who knew or enquired what religion they might happen to prefers. I could enumerate in the fame way 'perfons of the .higheft eininCtion in the army and the navy. So vain is time argument made tire of by tome, that if the Catholic Claims should be granted,- our King would be aProteltant, and his principal officers land Papifls. A notion has prevailed, that if one party acquires, another mull necelrarily lore; but to tar is that pe,fition from being true in domellic poli tics, that it does not always follow, even between na tion and nation, that if one country makes any ac quifition by friendly intercourfe, another mull fuller a lots in proportion : and here, by granting to the Catholics what their petition requells, you give what is of little benefit for you to withhold, but what it is of the uttnoll importance for them to acquire.— Dues not cvety Itadent in the law acquire tome de gree of coureqnence from your Lortithip's fituation --ttmci dignity tpon-the c:ooliack, and is be not cheer. i;il by the hope, that it may in future be his lot to arrive at a fimilar difticdion ?'Or what parcat would J - .. fiffijeft his chi!d to the miferies of a feafaring life, and the hardthips which, as a midfhipman, he mull fuffer:were it r.ot for the profgeet of future fuceeffes,. filch as thole. of •the Howes and the Nelfons of our day? In the army the cafe will be found parallel —Suppofe a number of fubaltern officers atferro" together, can you conceive any thing morelit tin?, than the fituation of'sinyone of them who's., be. told by- the-yek . whatiVer gleiriee-or-heinottri-bt., hereafter may obtain from. alk thofe sglotise* *ld .front.all thafe .konaurl. you malt be for tever exclndid:. To you we clto, icier fay— pede faufto Graedia laturul fortunx przmia. AU the fubjefts . if this equptty are exalted by the confidenition e that there is po man who walks the' ilieetr,...wha May n rpire to the higheß ranks of the Srite. • ,Apd not tea ir/fhCsnliol;cr for e v er be excluded from t all pOrricipatlon in the r steureltobjee3s zitotit)les ,if thole who 4e l iee, tp de !iii6fsihenf-thill 'hair it: . inAbeirpbwerforOver to fay,. is is clot vie ion back, 'it isothe law .t bet *c.outary that presents - your aggrandizement I If wai l niull condone ,the cafe, (mail is the hope . that we can evtr enterrsfinof fiefrig'Aornellic diferld,and isainlo-. • fay butiel in obliZvioii. Therefore it Ls, rny . l,ordi, , that I-repeat to your' bird:hips, that .thouglitillis -conceftion'ill be a - fivialt sole for yOu toitave - ed;;•lt'itill be A greit . one.fbr thenkto,recsive.g !Ewalt, 'tetriovt from - tliena a degraeliag badge: will be Some . cogolatiou to them to refteft; that. they have 'Rrprefenratives in Paill'amerit Of the fame perfuafion irith'theinfelves ; but if you perilft In diltrtifting the tathalies. is it not natural that they ihould &fruit YOU ? This has been my principal protivalcii'bring• ing the Petitiim behre,the notice of your Lordthips 6 arid I tout' always, to the ha Moment of niflifeste 7 member with the livelieft gratitttakthe attention yous Lordffiips have been pleated taleftow Istrobt jeet is union of 'parties, ofjcifts, of hearts Ow I afk you.not to. grant any thafg to ine.as,yer, for I am not prepared• to declare tabat other heal ing and frlutary meafures, for sunny filch ; thus a , e, I fhould Stink we ought at: prefect to Oclpt e -tit Do not let usibut our eyes upon the,flate of Liaisindi hut embrace this fir it opportunity that Iti beak pie. Tented to us, of confidering the affairs of Ireland in a conneaed view. This I confider to he a moll un, exceptionable opportunity. Long have I fought thii opportunity to bi jog forward the Petition, and find, ing that the Catholics began to grow impatlent when nothing had been done towards redee:pirrig pledge which had been fbrmerly given themilt.hous4 it expedient to bring forward. the cneefora It has been fait], that this knot a favgptable.fealo n. for prefenting that Petition to Parliament t.bat .1 think this fcsfoa, of all others, the nmatiVoutable; We have every external motive for. union t, we are Menaced by foreign enemies ; we IlsOuld.elofe Our, ranks, and prefent a firm phalanx ,to the foe. Let us grant this ptillege to the Icifb not As an extorted, right, but as alret boon. I feel enifel t f,ifighly hb nouled that the choice of the Lill Catholics has fallen upon me at fn momentous a crifis; and proud - 1114H I, he if your •Lordfhips fhail conceive that I have pro, perly executed the important charge which they.hoTe committed to me."' . The motion being read from the Woo Kick, .Lord HAWICE:SBURY role and addreged their Lordhips nearly to the following did :.,--lifter:the determination exprelled by the Noble Elarop, tvlio has it'll fat down, to treat the fubjetl with all the tem per and moderation of which he was cap4le, calling on the tinute.to follow his example in that re -4,00 can only regret that the Noble Baron teemed lo early in bis fpeecla to forget the recommendation with which he let out. The qoeflion, he laid, would and rnua be carried, if not on this night, at lean, at no very dill ant period. This was holding out a me nace to the Hoof:, calculated rather to defeat.the re commendation to temper and moderation which the Noble Lord bad made. Lord GRENVILLg—" My Lords, this is too much. I appeal to your Lord!hips, if I might, I would appeal to every Ilona Man, who heart ,me, ; whether the Noble Lord be in order and, above whether he does not offend againft the order of our proceedings ? My Lords, I fay the Noble Lord has been guilty of the groffett mifrepreftntation ? 4.gain I a ppe.a to the Houfe, I appeal to every honeft man, whether I have, in any one inil.ince, had recourfe to topics of the inflammatory nature of thofe dwelt upon by the Noble Lord? I have not introduced Tubjeds of dangerous tend e ncy. I have not dwelt on topics calculated to break in on the peace of the empire. On the contrary, J have (hewn the wi!h of my heart to be to encourage and lama ion no invelligation ordif cutli.m not calculated,in my judgment,to promote the welfare of the State, and the ultimate tranquillity of the Empire. I with the Catholics unfettered, but not unconneaed. Take oftheir chains Ofreligious.thral. dotal, and' you will direaly find that in all political views you gain lubjeas, and in eyeryfocial vOw, you acquire ft ictids." Lord EAWKESBURY—" I fay, my Lords, that, to my mind,' the Noble Baron did convey the irepref fion which I have attempted, however feebly, to le ptefent in .words to your lordihips. I cannot be tuppofed to infinuate, that I have done any thing but colleBed the general fpirit of the phfervation s or the Noble Baron, which, if I have not faithfully deve loped, your Loreithips will judge: The Noble ,Baron has talked of the triumph of the caufe of the fetiti oners.—(A cry of Hear! Hear !)—I am free to ORB that the Noble Baron talked of the triumph of the caufe by the operation of reafon, but I cannot well imagine how a mile is to triumph; unlefs reafon be on the fide of thole who call in reafon emphatically to their aid. A good caufe is ever lupported by sea for.. In a good caufe, you need not talk about the fopport of reafon ; for to fuch a cauf e y ou have it. put the Noble Lord talks of the fupport of reafon to his caufe, as if he diftruffed the inference of reafon in a cattle fo bad. " Huweycr, m 7 Lords, the Noble Baron tells us that he withes this entry ultimately to triumph by reafon—by the operation of reafon. I am ready to meet the queltion upon that ground ; and however it may be treated by the Noble Lord, or by others of his turn of thinking, who will fellow him, I know how to teat it on my part with temper; and to econtheff the enquiry with moderation. The Noble Lord has net thought proper to explain diffinelly the object of his motion. He bas left it to general confideration, and• almoff infinite details. The whole_ may he granted, or none granted ; for if we confent:to go into a conirnittee, it would kern et if the utmort wstbes of the Noble Baron svNaltheitdilf be,ln all othet,ilews, gratified. But to whit-daesihe motion of the Noble Baroxt go gilds not to, any partial ' iabilsogation, not tti - atty partial retititin, not to any ;limited modification of the flatutes heft to )ity entire repeal of `all laws, nikonlyata.ol ' Catho dic but which in any way o . perate in-eatclolion of . other ptrlualiont;4wliii denominatiorrftreren front • .holding the eery Erft offices in the Pate. I do not 4. 3 . !bat neceffarily.tht:Fitip - oiliion:iif- the Noble - Ba- ' ran warrants. that -dpsludica r but his tealoning molt Aguipediogalk 1.411 k negtimentivof the; . Noble •ftirink have indeed nu other isir ed. -tut: Whatever ‘4ereoce of .opinion there might be 'itsclulited• at to t to pil . ,e fent Petition, ' I certainly havedeptlicated the cycolfion now brought on, at die Mont moment. :and' in the.prefent circortirtancesa • -..Nto jnft cart is "segosado/ this great tturior.X . ,. by :441.5(e.wbovannoi ,arliat .properly• one- moment . fictui what. Aridly is.the• conifers* °L:somber. •rflowt ,ever lAtaigagree front fume, oragree•with others: however.l lug oat- be of xminiots 'that the'elaints. of the. Petitioners ongbt4o-heiwenta it anytime, Purl "others may thirtk, that they..ought to 'be -granted; hitt " % Sot granted, now; I am r • frce;tor , lay, .shat Art Affects have, foatcd. by me to:prevent th e queßina being. ,trot t. forward, ;,and tha-terped'able thrtilentanl ' who, Is in the. hemensmoy .of7Lreloftlr..To Pst.ent tO, ' being.agilatedin the.ptefeut •tronjedure., rlitutasof ter allithat -has beta - done to 'point ' nµtto the•Peti tionemths,right.line of their.dutya they havethlnitht • proper. to commit their interaits•to a party -elatedly hoftile,to his gajefty'reGosternment,' I feel it to be -my ditty to mylelf c mycomory, , -to youliLordfirips, and-to the Petitio:xers, co, nate, what my-opinion is of 14e.tetition .sow hefore-your:LordOsipalor coma d er iO nn , My lords, spinions•are formed. Ilia.te.confidered this fobjed dime leaf... - .. .fhe•invelii_gatient of- she queftion before- us - to-night has.occupied,my mind .a;very long -parted indeed; /et though my opinion is, that the prelent time is improper, this • opinion is •not founded on the cir cumilance of the-impropriety as•to time, •but on ge. neral.merits. • hiy.objedions apply to. .any •time, liewever,peculietly.didinguilhed, .when she queftiou is, .or. can,or; could -he, •lirought iforward; sand though -wellineJ ined to , lend my,fandionto rational rofornos..l am not apprehenfive, ..that in oppofing oponthis quellion the weight of my.dilfent. to re. iatms-of .the nature of that fought by she Petition, 1 iletrad•froot !the-eh:trader lo juftly enjoyed.by the: kitith ,Gotasnmeat ' 7 for -moderation, love of free skim, and-general regard-to sheinterefit of homani ty. Without refemtiog any thing to -be explained hereafter, I fay that the.qaellion would meet withmy oppplition brouglat,foratard almott at any period. ..it , in fayiog this, 4.d0 not fay, as to political oc curreoces, haw far. events might operate to induce different opinions. Yet the country, as to all fend. merits, all views, all' feelings, all the impreirsonaater had of this great oneftion, the fenfe•of this •sountrg, and of the-rofteding.pert of she world, are againfl she l`koble Baron tontl" if I jhould hefitate• reloading flat oh,arader of the elefigns i motives, and (thirds of the Noble Baron, mankind could not allow me to remain indifferent to long eflablithedhabits of think ing, and the confequences of principle, Which ito change of times can materially alter. Very naturally qty viewis not the fame as that of the - Noble Baron, whole • views differ-sot only from mines but - front thole of .all who have, to my knowledge, made this fubied -particularly their findy. On .the °diet. hand. if the q ueltion werethe toletationofreligionsopinions I mutt think, my Lords, that my difetotition to indtd • gene& is not lets eompreheolive than that of the'Nehle Baron, or any other man wilhing the freedom of either religious or political opitiolis. As to tbitfeel ing of toleration, something it may, however, be re quifite to remark, in order to justify myfell in the vote I (hall give this night, and with reference to the dedudions which I until feel it incunibeneon me to infer from the arguments which I Mad lubirit to your laordihips. As to the quellion calf toleration, I have as Prong a feeling as any Noble Lord oldie impor tance of tolerating liberal 'notions in religion ; and I remember the queftion that has been started tending to decide whether infidelity or fuperilition, and fano ticifm, were lets confiftent with the .fafety of a sa tion and common-wealth. Without being over-friend ly to toleration, I can safely obferve that•from the ex ample of the hillory oldie world, Tani of opinion that nogroater bane to human fociety con arifc than infi. delity: We have had an example of this in our own times. The spleitioat, indeed, •was referved for tilde times ; for in the centre of Europe an atheiflical re public .was reared up, but, fortunately, van , llied with the feafon that gave it birth. That fyftem, flow ever, cannot have -ailed to make a great and tailing impreffion on the minds of men. It lei ton the mind perfualion, that the violence of fanaticifm, in the waft ages of the world, never equalled the intole , ranee, intemperance, and wickednefs of the F,ench Revolutionists. All the deviations of other countries, and of•feds in religion, from the rules and precepts of moderation and humanity, were trivial, compared to the atrocity of the first revolutienifis of France. 1 severities of teligions bodice were clemene.y compared to the condud of the atheiltical toletants pf Republican France. ..flecolleding what occurred • 1 in that country. n the period of the world.to which 7 I allude, i will fay that thole who have any religion be,it what it : may, are in a better fituation than if . they had none. The Catholics are not the claft of Chrillians in whom I feel the molt confidence, nay, they are thole in whom I feel the !call, and for whom as a led, I have the lealt refoed. Havipg hated • this, I have no difficulty in laying, that there are , tome Catholics I believe as loyal and !toilet as any men ; yet whatever tenets they may profefs, I know their great lubmilfion is not real. Still the Catltolii-s may be and ate as virtuous, loyal, and honell as men can be in face.refpeds, though only fo in a reds ed fettle. With this view of the flihjed. I come to the principles of the Law and Conititution, thole prin. cipks which have been donfidered the'beft support of the Throne in Church and State ; the bulwat ks of oueinititutions, and guarantee of Eatery to our coun try, which I hope Noble Lords will not abandon without llronger reasons than thole urged by the Noble Baron. Yet whilft I allow that our laws are excellent and ought to be fupported, I do not mean to lay that laws, however wife, are infallible, or ought to be considered eternal. All laws are liable to Tuition." and if circumstances demand that, it may Of even wile to abrogate great and important laws.— On the other hand, I do fay, that there are law; which are the land marks of our.Cosalitittion, fli t . compaa between the governors and the goveinec! : ' and though the modification of thefe, on a cafe made out, might be expedient, yet fuch laws ought not to be changed without the greatell necellity. 4 , Let us lock at the prefent queflion as bearir.g . upon,-or. affigted by our laws. The great_ and fore ' principreadieliw,Thy the ACt of Sfrtlement, is, :hat the King of this coootry is. kfrolefiarit, and bolds Commanionitlthitie - Churth Of - England. as by law ellablilited. -- OtiralieNtore felt this, and. departed no farther than neceffity -obliged them, from, the fpi r i t of theleW iiiderisillitinibn. 'When they did, how. ever, function' with the tortflitulion,.rhey foetid at idl Alm' itiparts, end put it to thernfehres.-Whetker if it. prinee r ame in of a different religion, froni•fhat eftabidhed by the laws, they -ooght foot to 1 . W.1 the innovation? . 'They were aware of the ineofiviiiiincei ' :hind great it was, of- bteiikitig in on the•llite erffttecer lion, yet thatinconvenience , theyelidineur, thinTitig %haradrrkting i priftee Of'll rtligloOld!ffering . fi ant the eltabelltedreqtgion, wohtd he a gyeat •zr• cid. The. clavi whichlettlee'the f'icceflion of the drown, is net Mounded - MP temporary Oleos 'of convetletice; or fiellcipecalarinto but on eiperience, and:well weighed rand !folly 'tnanfred principle. ""1144 • whO:ff or nAl oliii law, came to the cOnclnfiop that the prineeithelt • bektf 'the ellablithed - religion of the 'Rave, othi:Sitire that he wouldlntfeit the crown. 'ltfeltabliffdrigtbis %principle another grows out of it, that If it•be:steeX far y-lf y‘ raw that The-Prince • thould he Protelatit,'itis jikewife nudettiably fo that his chief Councillors, note intimate adsifers; and *thole the h e heft in' his code dente, thould Ilkiwife be of the-ettoollesei :Protelfist religion. Surely no one will Contend that the'Cohn eillori of theSovoreign thOuld.ntif be of the fame te. ligion with the Soseitign; * . l7grant that even'ef this principle thereonarbo fume modification ;•.yet ailiti itil Cirown pre-Mork* a' lawn it Cooßitution OfoGif vestment. The litonerchiCal'Eftallithxnent at the Rest:dation, was fonaded an the vdryftiiintiple - for which I now 'contend. ' And' I cannot conteivefei abfurd,fo extravagant a propotition as that We welts fopport one and bieak in on ettether line of the fuccef lion, and are to hate alCatholic'Chancitior; Cadthrie judges, and the whole Civil Atintinifirationlin•the hands of Catholics. Arguing, istirraio, you might Tay, indeed, that, in the cafe of the Crown, you wade remit the law;. but how onaceounzabk to alledgethat the Crown (hall be Protatllent. odd yet ks-adstfritt mead not. • The refpee!for the Crown. howeliet,.has teal marked inifoimer time. The Crown was . treatetas the fu tied imam .atteat pte dto berreated. 'lrfpnint of faa, ft wee what -was ilotteitt thestime.ettChttrbee 11. for then theybegao agninff Prefliytetints,..attivo rtes. and, Diffenters dfall idefetiptions ; but during the whole •time no A& ovas &ales tts the:Crew/1. 'Die tidied was to 'be of therEflablithed ' Religion; the Gown was not. When thelElloke of Yotklifecaviet Catholic, and was cootir to the Crown, - it Writ laid that the circundianee Of 'his Avower of Cattholicalat was, as tn. the law of fucoelfiyin, orpc,fat9e, 'bit he was not exeluded front ille — Thront. Now in-ptiint of re:foul:to, and in point of fee,' if the limitationlf the Crown was neceffary, it was - more fo to refitiift the Councillors of the Crown.' As to political power, your Lordthips will, however,"locik .'to' it with -jets . leafy, .attd will sot place it in utivrerthy'handS ;let handsin which it can be ibufed is itha view ofpolkied fopeemacy. Thofe who stifpenfe the fisestfrs'olthe (lingo, timid be of the ritligion elf the Colin; The inference from the argument of the Noble haronls. however ; that be would difpenfi with tees altigithet. Upon the practical effects of the motions, it it neceffs rr to late to your Lordthip's in what Diffentere 'and Catholics differ, and to (hew that onr Engin Diffen ters differ more from the Church than the Catholics. There are many tenets in which Catholics teem to come nearer the Church than Diffenters; yet in one molt effentisrl point the Catholic is more at variance with the Church. and that is in regard •to internal Government. The Diffenter admits the right of the Church to internal Government, but the Catholic contends for external Governnieny and the .fupre nntcy of the Church of Ronne. This' foreign OM diftion is - Rated to be merely eccleftallical; but no one who relic& on the thing will fail to confider it as political. • Will Noble Lords confider that great part of the lands of another part of the Empire is in the hands of the Catholics, and will not that give them political power-? • Now the Catholics, honeltly, I will fuppofe, think the Church of - Eng land -heretical and idolatrous. And if they, bybeing admitted to the firft offices in the Race, gain 'power, who will effort himfelf that they will not inculcate the duet, ire, that lance they are not of the Church, they ought tact to be called upon to contribute to the maintenance of the Church ? If the Catholics be fi6- nek men, they mull prefer their ovrntenets to any other. and becaufe of that they ought to be received with jet loufy. hof it is Paid, that with a Proteßant King, no thing can happen to give the Catholics power. Now, on their owripriociples, this mull be futficient to in dace them not to be zealous, or at all defircus, to compafs the ends of their prefent petition; for,.mott affnredly, they with forpower, without which reek in the Rate would be idle and nugatory. If however. with a Proteftant Prince, they could gain no afeen • dancy, or acquire power, compliance with their Pe tition would be worth nothing to the Petitioners. —if, on the other band, you think there will be no danger in abrogating the laws, do it openly. The argument. of the Noble Baron applies to trotting employments to Catholics. and qualifying them tv fit in Pariiament. I will not go deeply into this quettion ; I think that when the eleeive franchife was granted them enough was done, but that has net fatisfied ; andl we are called upon to expole our fcct:- rity, by grunting what I do believe will end in Nit -As to the confideration r.f the queflion, on EIT ground of time, I wholly differ in opinion from the Noble. Baron; and contend that the moll dangercus time we could choofe is that when the power tailing in France is clofely connefled as it is with the Pope • of Rome. The ground of this opinion was feen in the rebellion of 1798. But if you grant the Cathc tics what they a& now, will they not elk more, v.hot we know that no footer were the conceffions made in 1793, than they e,xpreffed that farther conceffi , ins would enfue ? The charader of the Catholics if they did acquire power, we can coiled from the hiltory • of the short period when one of the Stuarts held tern , porary fway in Ireland; for there were then the nioß diabolical laws enaaed and enforced is the dittrie; .l of the Catholic Goverttment. I.ly.the .xerolution a