Star. — London, England, 1802-03-06 00:00:00

PARLIAMENTART PROCEEDINGS. HOUSE OF LORDS, FRIDAY, MARCH s. The SOLICITOR GIN was beard for the Appellant la the Appeal. Rebecca Lalbley v. William Thwaites and others. A:ter which the further bearing was adjourned till that day fortnight. The evidence given on Mr. Crew's Divorce BM !aft Sacs was ordered to be printed. The Expieing Laws PM was brought up and prefented by Mr. Alexander and others, and the Pbsn ngham inclofure DM by Sir Charles Banbury and others, and red a Brit time. The Bills upon the Tattle were forwarded in their refrain Rages. Some private Winds was then dirpoicd of..—Aftcr which their Lorddups adjourned till Monday. HOUSE OP COMMONS. Mr. DiceiNsou. amebae co leave obtained on a former day, brought in a Bill to continue for two months longer the Aet poked in the !aft Salon lefpedting the non-refuleace at the Clergy, which was read a brft time, and ordered to be read a ad time on Monday. Mr. Jou si sr on t moved foe an Account of the Servants of the raft India Company, at their Wawa of Fort Martha rough. with the dates oldie': appointment. After a few words of converfation betwixt Mr. Wallace and Mr. johnitone. the account was ordered to be laid on the Table. Mr. SSC& ITAIL T Toast brought in the Mutiny Bill, and Bated to the Hoak that it was weakly &war to that dually palfed,cteept as to the period of its He atemild how. ever, in the Commltue. have an to explain why it was limited to two months, foe the %tit making it cer refpokid with the time to which the •he the different parts of the fervloe had been vetedp.• was then read a bit time. and Monday named as the ime gar the ad reading. The 818 for Ming the has of one alien by a loan on Ex chequer 1111 a, was alliread a 'Eft time. and ordered to be read a &eland these on the kale day. The Bin for regulating the duties en Cinnamon, Calla, &e. was read a fecond time, and committed for Monday. Mr. MAINWAIIIIO pretested a Petition from the Company of themetehers,agahtft the Welt India Wet Dock Bill Refer red as the Committee on the Bill Ordered, on the motion of Mr. VANSITTART, that there !acid be laid before the Houk an Account et the Exports and =from the Britt& Colonies to America for three years, die sth of January. mad for three years ending the sth of January, 1793. ANISitiCAN TREATY. Upon the motion for the (scond reading of the American Treaty Bill, General Gtscoion a kid, although the lapfe of time between' he firl and fecond reading of the Bill had enabled him to obtain information, which had materially kffened his objection to it, there were Rill force difficulties his mind had been un able to remove—one was, the jealoufy with which be viewed every meafure that infringed upon the. Aet of Navigation—an Aft, in his opinion, next in importance to the charter under which the country enjoyed its liberty. It was in confequence of that alt the trade of Great Britain had reached its prefent pitch of fplendur—it was by that as this country, notwithilanding the convulfions which had fhaken the kingdoms of Europe, prefeuted a fingular and unexampled in Rance of wealth, power, and fecu- City, arifing from the proteaion affo rded to its Commerce, and the privileges enjoyed by its mer chants. He objed alto to the pref en t Bill, be- caufe he feared it might interfere with other Treaties which might be made at the coselofies of Peace. The objea of ibis Bill was to enebk hie Majelly to take off the countervailing duties in cer- tain cafes when Parliament was not StWg. Ufa& a power fliould be seed npbn, the conferments would be, this country would lore the whole of the carrying trade with the WeR India Colonies, the produce of which would be b a t i :t i r e : to Europe in American flips. There was point, the in demnification to American merchants. He believ ed there bad been a great abufe of this part of the I Treaty, on the fide of the Americans • but as be underftood the fubjea was to be difculied on a fo. , tune day, he thould not now enter into it. He was knfilde the Americans had the advantage of this country by the prefent Treaty, and (hould time countervailing duties be taken off, the injury void be very tenons. He obferved, that the number of hips employed by the Americans in the trade bad rogreffively increakd, while 221 Great Behan progreffively diminiilied. Whether this was to be attributed to the war, the rife of wages, or the price of timber, he knew pot; but the faa certainly was is he had Rated it. With regard to the trade in the article af- Salt, the re- I gulations in this country increafed the difficulties of exporting it, while the Americans had no fuelt impediments to contend with. He remarked thnt' the alteration intended to be made in the American Treaty by the prefent Bill, was not in confequence of any overture on the part of the Americans; therefore why do a thing that was detrimental to our commerce, when there was no certainty after it was done the Americans would be a&uated by' a reciprocal defire of favouring the trade of this country. He had no reafon to believe the Ame ricans confidered Great Britain exclufively as the molt favoured nation with regard to her trade ; on the contrary, the fame advantages we enjoyed had been he ld out to all nations. He underftood a Treaty had been entered into between America , 1 and France, by which American hips, whether I manned by American or French Won, were to be confidered the fame as French property. It was the duty of the Honk, therefore, to look with cau tion before it granted fnch advantages as woad., Milk from the prefent Bill, to our rival in coon- MOM He then alluded to the prohibitions by Spain and the Batavian Republic, with regard to the importation of Britilh property of the produce of the Colonies in &itith (hips, inferring the great war t advanta g es the American trade mull derive from fech ibition. At all events there could be no T for pang (itch a Bill as this at protein, as' the Parliament, from the bufinefs before it, was likely to fit for feveml months. He therefore thought it would be infinitely better to defer it till the lunation of the trade of the *country, aid its relations with &reign Rates, was better afcertained by the concluilwa of the .Definitive 'treaty with Franca t ~... her. Vanirrtnar-enprefild nis turprife tnat the relay between die fir* and fecond reading of the Bill bad not esehltd him to remove all his doubts. The arguments in fopport of the pretest Bill Isty, within the narroweteosaptiirdiblee The between the Colonies and America was not con. netted with it at aIL With refl*Et to the probi hi•ions on the part of pois aid tha French Re puhlic,, he Should not now enter up is g,e fubj4.ll, _ - . 7gre•-rwfs-";:r 'as it was impoffible to form any accuratejudg: ment till after the Deinitive Treaty was fignod— it was impoilible till then to know whether . the prohibitions would be footoved or continued. As to the Bill being an infiingement of the Navigation Ad, he could not, with all the attention he had paid to the fubjea, perceive the lean conneftion the two Bills had with each other. The Bill gave America no trade to the Colonies that could be injurious to our trade—they were norahle to tranf port to this country any produce but our own. —With regard to America having privileges with France, be could not enter into :my obferva tions on that part of the Hon. Gentleman's argu ment, becaufe there were no Treaties between France and America which had been communi. cated to this country in an authentic (lupe. The regulations the Hon. Member had referred to, re fpcaing Salt, were not intended as a reftraint upon the exportation of that article, but as a precau tion of revenue, and to prevent it from being re landed and fold without payment of the duty. The queftion of indemnities to American Merchants he would not enter into. The grounds on which he propofed this meafure were national faith and ge neral policy ; it was in confequence of a relaxa tion on the part of the Americans, of regulations Indite to this country. After the Amencan war i that country long retained a fpirit of refentment towards Great Bntain; which was manifefted by impofing double duties on Britilb goods ; but after they had formed themfelves into a regular State, one of the firti aas of the General Congrefs had been to repeal thofe carrying duties, and impofe others, in which Britilli thips were as much fa voured as thofe of other nations; it was in the fame fpirit of national good will, and in return for the advantages this country enjoyed by its Treaties with the Americans, the Bill had been brought forward to enable his Majelly, if certain events fhould happen, to take off the countervailing I duties. He did not think it neceffary to enter farther into the fubjea ; he nutted the Houfe would fee the propriety of the meafure, and give it its fanaion. Dr. Laweanca contended there could be no occafion to enable hisMajefly to take off the coun tervailing duties, when Parliament had fo long to fit, and no dverture on the fubjea had been made 'by the Americans. He obferved, that the Ante ricans poll tied many and confiderable advantages over the fubjcas of this country, with regard to the carrying trade, and particularly in confequence of the decifion of the Court of King's Bench, in the cafe of Maryatt v. Wilfon. The advantages held out by that decifion were fuck, that many Merchants had left this country, and gone to America, with no other view than to obtain them. In order to thew the defigns entertained by France againft the commerce and the naval greatnefs of this country, the Learned Gentlemen read Tome palrages from a pamphlet, written by Hautreive, who was Under Secretary of State, and aging confidentially under Talleyrand, which pamphlet had been induftriody circulated all over Europe, and whore °Neel was to ftrike at the very vitals of our commerce. The doarines broached by France at different timei appeared to many perform to be nothing more than wild fpeculations, that ought to be difregarded. Bin they were afterwards ailed upon and carried into effeet. One thing was very remarkable in the condua of France : there was no country, except Great Britain, with which fhe did not exprefs a with to enter into a Commercial Treaty. What was her motive in excluding us .? It was in order that by forbidding the importation of our commodities, the might injure our manu faanres and deftroy our Navigation Aa, by en tering into a confederation with other powers.— A fytlem fomewhat funilar to this was already attempted to be introduced into America, by per. Cons in that country, who attached themfelves to the faaions by which France was governed. Upon the whole he would fubmir, whether there could be any inconvenience in putting off the prefent Bill for a month longer, until accounts thould be received from America as to what that country intended to do? - I Lord Hawse:suer (aid he was Corry to obferve that the Learned Gentleman who (poke laft, had brought forward a great llore of knowledge and information for no other purpofe than to embar rafs the queflion before the Hoare, and draw away the attention of Gentlemen from it, rather than make it intelligible. Without intending to throw any refledion on thofe who fupported the Bill, he would fay, that it was one which no mm of com mon fenfe, who underftood it, could (ed to.— It had nothing whatever to do with the Navigation Ad : an Aft which he confidered as the founda tion of our Naval greatnefs, and which he fhould ever fupport and defend. The nature of the pre fent Bill was this--America, after the conclufion of the war with this country, had laid certain du ties on Britiih goods imported in foreign ihips, and Great Britain in return had laid other duties on American goods, to countervail chore impofed by America. If that country should repeal there du ties, we were bound, as a matter of courfe, to re peal ours. The only queition therefore was, whe ther, after America had, through her Minifter, notified her intention of taking off thofe duties, it was not expedient to pats an Aa for granting his 1 Majefty power to fufpend the duties here accord ing to circumfiances ? He was convinced it would be much more convenient for both countries to take off the duties altogether. The Learned Gen tleman had quoted a. book in order to thew the ,hollile difpofition of France, as if that had any thing to do with the Bill before the Houle; but it was worth while to confider the time when that book was publifhed ; it was in the year itiot. It then came out as a Manifefto, accompanying the fyftem of Armed Neutrality which was forming againft this country. It was at that time, and ptrhaps might be hereafter, a part of the principle of France to truth the Naval Power of this Coun try, by fupporting that Confederacy. He need not call it to the recolledion of the Houk that that Confederacy was totally defeated, and that tome of the belt blood of the country was flied on the occafion. But at the very time when his Majefly's Government was preparing to'alert our national rights, the Learned Gentleman who, tiiis night, fo Ispid of recemmending vigorous Councils, had beet) the firft to advife the Houfe to forbear aniftreyttin the ed. , ma c toner fe el 7 l 4e, at ri l gh ev u er of wo th atd c 4 ) e u which he produced on the prefent occafion was publinted at that time, but he kept it in his pocket, and never thought proper to bring it forward until the queftion to which it referred was decided. At the commencement of the late war, he beard it faid in that Houfe, that it would completely de ftroy the commerce of the country; now it was on the other hand afferted, that peace would deftroy our commerce. The &ft prophecy, however, was not fulfilled, and be was not inclined to place any faith in the fecund. When he looked over the dif Brent parts of the hittory of our commerce, al though he faw many events of late years to furprife him, he Caw nothing from which he couldfeel any apprehenfions for ifs fafety-L-he feared no attack that could be made againft it. The principle of commerce was, that thofe who could buy the cheapeft and fell the deareft, muft always have a commercial fuperiority; and whatever prohibition a country might make againfl certain commodities belonging to anothJr country, if thefe goods were wanted, they must find their way in fpite of all prohibitions. This ohfervation was clearly aemon bated by experience. Commerce refted on two great fources—Capital and Credit. In the &ft of diefe, no country in the world could rival Great Britain ; and in point of punauality, there was no country that equalled us except Holland, to which quality that country was at one time in debted for her commercial greatnefs. But this was not the cafe with France, owing to tbe national charaCter of the people of that country. There was not that fairnefs in their dealings, which was futficient to infpire foreign merchants with confi dence ; and therefore the commerce of the country never became great or eaten five. It was owing to this confidence that Great Britain encrcafcd her commerce,fo much ; and there was another cir curnftance in our charaCter which gave us a mani feft fuperiority over the Dutch and all other coun tries ;—that was the honour and liberality which our merchants had always obferved in their deal ings. This circumflance alone was fufficipit to throw the balance of trade in our favour, in fpile of all the attacks and the illiberality of other.coun tries. The experience of every day taught us, that if this country Rood true to herfelf, the had no thing to fear from any quarter. The ftrength and refources of the country were futficient to pro telt her, and in the national honour and good faith would be found the nation's bell hope and belt fccurity. Mr. Witimaam wilhed to know what occafion was there fur the Bill before the Hottfe, until it was wanted ? Why anticipate that which another country might or might not do, kilt as it pleated? His Learned Friend had aliened, that the French where plotting the deftruaion of our commerce • and the Noble Lord endeavoured to refute this a l: fertiott by obferving that one prophecy had failed, and that of courfe the other mull not be fulfilled. Was the country now to underftand that prohibi tions againft the importation of our goods would not flop our commerce ; although the declaration of France had been folldwed up by pofitive aRc ? He could not believe any fuch thing afttlit' their condo& could do no injury to our commerce.— But it was neither our money nor our commerce that could rapport us in &prelim ctifis. We had to contend againft fuch a power as we never law fine the time of the Romans. It was a do minion of filch ambition and magnitude, that when he beheld it, he confided all his confidence in thofe general topics that had been laid dowh as the balls of our firength vanifhed into nothing.",-- The great and uniform fupport of this country was that proud and martial fpirit, that high and dignified fenfe of honour, which never fubmitted to any indignities. It was this , fpirit which had at all limes maintained us : and it was the poWer of our arms, and not the punauality of our ,pay ments, that had raifed us fo high in the scale of nations. He wilhed to guard the country againft the fatal opinion, that if once its fortune was made, the might go to fleep—that once its edifice was stetted, the feaffolding might be taken down. Viewing, as he did, the dangers which menaced this country, he was very far from feeling defpon dency which however he mull feel if he was to underhand that our wealth alone would be fuffi cient to carry us through the danger—that our commercial profperity would bear us up again* the domineering power of France . When the Noble Lord talked of the capital of wealth, he ought to talk of another kind of capital—the capi tal of dominion. The Houfe would delude itfelf were it to judge of this from former precedents ; and the country met be undone if the trotted to her wealth alone, unfupported by that fpirit, vi gour, and' magnanimity, which at every former period had diffinguiffied the people. Lord Havicasauav in explanation Paid, that the Right Hon. Gentleman who had jail fat down, had completely miftaken his ftatements, in fuppof. ing that he ever meant to affert, that commerce and wealth alone were fufficient to fuftain the can fequence of the country. No man could be more anxious than he was to hold up the national ho nour as the molt valuable treafure the country could poffefs, and the moll erential to the mainte nance of its character and profperity. The CMANCILLOR of the Exam most vindicated the reputation and general condo& of his Noble Friend, and exprefed his perfuafion that the Houfe would weft, from the experience of his life, that no man would be more unwilling to let down the fpirit of the country than he—that to no man could filch an imputation apply with lets 'office. It ap peared too tafhionable of late to pronounce com mercial purfuits incompatible with high tentiments of honour and national glory; bnt it would be re colleaed by the Houfe, that fuch an opinion was erroneous in principle, and falfe in fait ; for the experience of the left twelve years, in which we had attained to an unprecedented and unrivalled degree of commercial property, and during which the brilliant condo& of our army and navy fig. * oily proved, that the molt exa lted national fpi rit was not inconlident with that siropriety. 'hut krvect to repudiate and to falfify fuch an impute. " tion. lie agreed with the. Right Hon. Cehtle. man on the other fide, that the power of France was immenfe ; he would allure him that he was far from contemplating that power with indiffe rence. He would not be charged with apathy on that fuhjeift, for he was aware that the power of France was fuch as to call for the utmoft vigilance, exertion, and vigour on the part of this country; but not fuch as to juftity defpondency ; that he ti idled would be kept aloof from the minds of Englifhmen. That high and national fpirit which had ever diftinguithed then:, and which was the great conkreative of a nation's importance, he had the &melt rcliance, would uniformly preferve them from any degrading or dejeaed Th ey h a d it ., occafion to entertain it—if they., as his Hon. Friend had obferved, would continue true to themfelves, their ltrength and refources were fully competent. .With refpeel to the mea lure before the Houfe, he denied that it was gra tuitous on our part, but called for by overtures frem America. It evinced none of that unbecom. ing conciliation which fome Gentlemen had de fcribed as the attribute of confcious weaknefi, and nearly allied to meannefs. That fpecies of conci. Ration he fhould be as ftrongly difpofed to con demn as any Member of that - Houfe ; but he was convinced that this meafure partook not of it—its motive was found national policy—its objea to get rid of countervailing duties, which, in fall were no equivalents, and which could not be en forced without irritation and injullice. If, as it was !Wed, that our (hipping were excluded from the greater part of the Continental ports—an ex elution, however, which could not availmaterially againft us while we polielfed loch curative Indian commerce ; yet if fuch exclutioa did exift owing to the war, or if it were to operate in any particu lar manner after the Peace, ihould not that impel its with additional obligations to cultivate a clofer commercial correfpondence with America—and that was the purpole of the Bill. He was ready to admit that the obferrations of the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Windham) were, fome of them, very thong, but it did not Teem to him that any of them could apply to this Bill by legitimate reafoning, or could difincline any Gentleman who heard hint to refute it his fupport. Mr. NICHOLLS (poke in favour of the Bill. The Bill was read a fecond time. 'On the mo tion for its commitment,, Dr. Lime tact took occation to obferve, that what he before Paid might perhaps require fome explanation. He merely meant to difcharge his duty in the Houfe, by calling on it to be cautious in what it was about to adopt ; but be could not do that, nor any other duty effeatially, if he did not put himfelf right with thofe who were to judge of the performance of that duty, namely, the Houfe. He fitould therefore, with permiffion. cone& a few unintentional errors, which appeared in the fpeech of the Noble Lord on the other fide of the Houk. He had laid, that a quotation had been made to-night out of a book, which he might have read on the occafion, when the fubjeel of the claims of the Armed Confederacy of the North had been under difcutlion in th a t Houfe, for that the fentirnents of that book were better adap ted to• fupport' the ptintiple he maintained that night, than thofe maintained by him this evening. The reafon for his not having quoted any thing out of that book on that occafion was a good one. There was not then a copy of that work in Eng land, nor did be then know of its exillenee ; there fore the obfervation of the Noble Lord upon his having kept that book in his pocket from that time to this was unfounded. Indeed be wondered the 'Noble Lord &could think it neceffary to advert to 'night to what had pallid on the occafion of the eliicuffion of the claims of the Armed Confederacy . . The opinion he then gave was fimilar to the opt ilion he had given to-night.—merely do advife the Houfe to watt awhile. The Sesaesa Paid, he would fubmit it to the Houfe, whether, on a queftion, that this Bill be committed, it was competent to the Hon. Mem ber to go into a reply upon arguments larged on a former night, and on another fubjed. Dr. LAWRENCE fubmitted to the authority of the Chair. He admitted, that what be was urging was irregular; hut obferved it was one of theft irregularities which were fornetimes permitted-- He then juftified his conclud upon the occafion of difcuffing the - claims of the Northern Confederacy; and contended, that the Noble Lord himfelf, as Secretary of State, had adcpted, in part at leaft, the Connfel he gave in the Houle, for, inftead of fending a fleet to enforce our demand, be had fent his Hon. Friend behind him (Mr. Vanfittart) to accomplifh by pacific means what was afterwards enforced by-arms. Mr. O'Hazit Paid, that the hoftile difpofition of France towards this Country was carried on, not by force and violence only, but alfo by infinuation and addrefs. It was a ilia well known, that there was a slats of perfuns formerly in France. whore political principles were fo bad that they could not remain even in France. They were fent to Ame rica. They dilfeminated their principles with a milchievous affiduity wherever they went: to coun teraa the efforts of fuch perfens, a meafure like this was the molt likely to be effedlual, as blending with the liberal principle of it, commercial advan tages to America. He Paid he was convinced this meafure dll not encroach on the Navigation Law: that was amply proved, and not attempted after wards to be refuted ; for which reafons he was de cidedly in favour of the meafure. Lord HAWNESDURY role to explain, and obferv ed, that as to what fell from him on aformer debate he could not refer to it. It was regular, however, to explain what he had Paid to-night, and upon which.he was anxious in one particular. He meant the expreffion of hoftile difpofition ; by hoftile dd. pofition he did not mean a difpofition for War, but a general hoftile difpofition to the general in tereft of a State. That was the fenfe in which he recant to apply the wordshoftile difpofition in thole parts of his fpeech to which that fentiment was ap plicable. As to the Government of America, and its difpofition towards this Country, his Lordthip &W A " I am aware it Ira dangerous thing to un dertake to anfwer for the difpofition of the Govern. l inn e t of a ForCign Country; but I think it due to N!,