Star. — London, England, 1828-06-24 00:00:00

Ow 1 Dot. xi to .they deco ;in to 'le of fn do. ho ltd ted wat t a m * Tuft. iV:to irbOV 0 l b ( y ov er mding 'kw of Runtime tettosse- PPmin . leetiossly round be ►e tinted fend ;was Wee beets a strong to appli ci without oderstood nd to be can , : was rho Oootp • I of 30003001,. it. &void her party. Their wet anthu : Treasury was dated issue to* try Minot* s the sass* m. that the expel)* of , which ap the Act of Ids for the iod that the avid.--Q iut if it had any know- Gentleman at had beta The Co M' cower to ac- For a single iers of the iestion bad tirom that the matter r a itatatft .ct. It was set of-it •r tUterS•4e i I ced for the Il repaid — tee, 18211-- er semi MA g cf it isa sad Yorealib ced-- • silooPe 4WD* ano,o o, IS PO lad bee, tl• onatidy, tats PPsiatwra sabitiabial is they was reitullY i rse mid the tthlaw lid not A n the p . rem woutaiiiir „ std the lan e. lin that aw Inge tine "7, 'arliaabeati P arottla be contended that In the Triennial Report of the Commissioners it would-appear,but that-wasa mere sub. terfoge.and.even if it di I appear it would show that there bad'heen no atthority for thewct itself. It now became nece•la• v for him t. cite cases-in support of the in of argement he had 'pursued, and of the resolutions, with proposing which he meant to conclude. The first of these w ••s-the ca.e f Sir C. Seymour, who, in the reign of Charles II.: ! 1680) WAS inipeAchtl, for that be, being 4 r, e ismer of the Naar, did lend 90.0001. out of a sum o f ,584.,0042, sppropriateal .for the building of ships, towards the contingencies of the many. In 1711, a Committee h.d been appointed-to inquire into the rea sons of the increase of the public burdens, and reported that that ii.,:ressse had been partly caus'd by ib raisap rliCation of the -p4blic money, with reference to that ;particular case. • In 1796, a stronger precedent occur red, bat. which WAS at 'the same time, nothing like, the present. Mr. Pitt's excuse was founded on ex treme necessity ; but in the present instant a no such necessity could be pleaded. When attacked by Mr. Pox, Mr. Pitt replied, that whik: we were at war 'le did not like to opet the Councils of the country to the public. He had advanced t'!'00,0001. to the*Prince of Condi, and other sums to the Emperor; yet, with all the eloquence My. Pitt was master of, and with all his popularity, he felt himself placed in a predicament in. which. had he not been aided by Mr. Bragge and other hien& tot whom Lord Sidmouth was one)the vote of censure of Mr. Fox would have been carried—(Here ' the Honourable Gentleman recited_the terms of Mr. Foe ', vote, which stated that " his Majesty's Ministers basing commanded, while rarliament was sitting, the issue of various sums of money wiLhout the sanction of Parliament, had acted contrary to their dirty, and con trary to the trust reposed in them." 3 —That bad oc curred in time of war; and Mr. Bragge's amend ment was " that the measure for advancing certain sums of money for the service of the Emperor, al though it ought not to be drawn into a precedent, was, uncle' the peculiar circumstances of the coun try, justifiable." Now he (Mr. Taylor) would ask, could-the Ministers of the present day assert that any peculiar exigency retrired their departure from the line of their duty ? Another case occurred in 1805, grow ing out of an advance of 40,0001. to assist the house of Boyd and Benfield,*hich he could not help character isiog as an abuse of power of the most dangerous na ture. Mr. Pitt defended that Act, on the ground of its being domf. for the purpose of sustaining the credit of a bonse which must have otherwise failed, and produced great liras to the Public. Ent where was there a similes necessity to be found in the present case? So far from being an act of expediency or necessity, it had beenonli a Optfirjght assumption of power. For the former act, a cause was stared:—for the present, none—and of that fact the 'actor% iii k were convinced, for it-was suite clear that it was intended to becOncealed. The discovery was nude by the Finance and the Select Committees, and the result would.. he hoped, prove to be a God-send to the Public, who would, he trusted, receive their . 250,0001. back. He could not conceive a case more grievous—none more in direct violation of the privileges of tiut:House had occurred since the Re rolution—and he called upon the souse wallow their di,approbation el it by a strong vote. With whatever talent, whatever argument, or whatever conEdence (of which too much was witnessed within the walls of that House), the Act in question was sought :o bE defended, he thought it wooldree difficult to discuss it other wize that: as a mat ter involving the privileges of Parliament and the power of Ministers. Ministers did this though /ands for tha:_pplytose had been given the year before by autho rity oC,Paiiiameat ; stiU they misapplied this money to that pus possv and asserted* was right.. If it was sco why was knot stated to the House ? Was the WaSelo give op the most veluatile tit" its privileges? There was no necessity for their conduct. Parliament was sit. tint. Timm needed to hex been no delay. It was ,a wanton concealevent of the misapplication of the public money-, and against and in diroct op.. position to the principles of the British Constitu tion. He might have uttcl more argument on the subject. bat cooteated himself with a plain and'simple statement of facts as they aroso. ,As these were applied' tot the whole subject, the Houle had not . means of jaeliang, as Representatives of Else three Xingdoins, wbether they ought not to visit that act With the disap robatino and censure of Parliament. He trusted that se i question I.ke that he should not be unsupported' by men of high talent. Having biought the subject forward as an individual, he should take the liberty of wing two resolutions--one :taring the fait ; another setting forth the principle, as quoted hens a ResFlotion of the Journals of the House in nil which was passed fly a lane majority, in censure of the misapplication of a eeetatn nsm of money.. The Hon. Gentleman then read be Resolutions, which- were in substance as follows : • That it appears to this House, from Papers on the Table of the H 04194 that the Commiuioners for the 'Liquidation, Arbitra. the, soil Deposit if the Claims of British Subjects aiainst Fusee, apostates miter' the 59th, Geo. II f. chap-71, did p:.y by order er IN Las Cominisaleuen of .the Treasury to the Commitsieuers of Woods and Forests the sum of 100,0001. on tin 10th •f Mar-h, 1251; 55,0001. on time 7th of February, 18u7; 100,0001. on Lb:. 11th of March, 1527 ; and 15,0001. on the 54 of June, 1627 ; in all 250,0001. without any communication with this House, or any este or authority for applying them to that purpose:' Hr. BARING seconded the maim. Ms. HERRIES—Sir. I rise with great pain, and a **Avow of the difficulty of the oubject of discussion. Tbe reason why I rise so eatly in the debate is, that 1 was one of the persons whose official relations gave me an opportunity of acquiring a knowledge of the trans= anion, as who am therefore best ena b led by my ac traiotaete with the facts to explain the circumstances , aid repel the imputations, serious and heavy as they are, that have been made against the character*: the persons iseteerned in these transactions. lam sure I shall the ware readily obtain the indulgence of the House when 1 remind them, that the elaborate and lengthened statement of the Hon. Mover of these Resolutions shore low deeply he is impressed with the importance and (Meshy efahe subject. With the same impression of the importance of the question, but by a shorter alto , Wenr, I trait I shall be able to clear of all imputatiot the persons accused of this most serious charge. This Ilan bees described as an act the most grievous on the sailjecei and subversive of the principles of the Con. agitation, and the privileges of Parliament, that has Leta committed since the Revolution. If this be an Act of that nature, it lies heavy on the memory of eminent statesmen— of men the last to be suspected of such an . art—some of whom are now unable to answer for or des fend themselves. I mean of Mr. Canning, and of Lord Liverpool, and of Lord Goderich,who, thank Gore, is yet able to . u . sser fo r himself. If this act deserves the imal patations heaped on it by the Hon. Member, then I say that the memory of Mr. Canning, and.the character of Lord Liverpool, and Lord Gochnich,who is.yet alive, are in the greatest jeopardy; but, Sir,l hope, from the nature ei the plain and simple account of it which I shall give to the H(tre, that the friends of those Noble and Hon. Penes'. nerd labour under no great anxiety for the fate Of the Hon. G-ntlernan's motion. I hope I shall be able to show to tl.e House that there is no reason for enter. Wait% of those Noble-and Hon. Pasoan de* opinions which they must merit if rho measure in question were& mis,,pfdirastitus.dihriMblicfiLasds, e , 1 1..a. vitiation of the principles of theConstitation—ror theAne.at i . ntlanan has not_ggiegJol4!..,..ll.l2s„4l . 04 it W2llll violitien of a tatute. -- The Chotiil - 74147;je l k : Sall sated his case. Nose, before I give my reasons for differing from the Hon. Geritlem conceiveit better 10 state my case too from documents, and my recollec tion of the facts. But before I oroceed tos that, I wish to remove an erroneous impreastou on the House_ as to the date of the transaction, into which the House and the Honourable Member have been misled by a clerical error in the official document on which the issue was made. If the House wish to hear the facts, "hope they will not proceed to a division without listening to an explanation of a clerical error. Sir, there is an error; in the document to which I alluded, it is stated, that the money was issued on the 10th of March, while the Trea :ury warrant is dated only the 30th. But the tact is, that the money was not, and could not be paid before the war rant was signed by the Lords of the Ti easury ; on the con tra, y, it was paid after, namely, on the sth April, though set forth in a different manner through mistake in this document. Now the facts of the case are these—in the year 1825, Lord Goderich being then Chancellor of the, Exchequer, brought in a Bill for appropriating a grant of money to the erection of certain public buildings. In the course of the proceeding it wa% found that the sum wanted would be about '250,0001. The public funds, . most proper for this purpose appeared to be those ari,ing from the sale of Crown lands. Some time alter the erection of these edifices began, it was discovered that the funds in hand were not iolficient.and for these reasons, that the expenses of certain measures for im proving and beautifying the Metropolis were. made chargeable on this fund—and the charges . on the fund, being unexpected. were the more heavy. Thus the Revenue arising from the sale of the Crown lands was not sufficient for to complete the erection of Bucking ham Palace. About this time it was.announced to Mb Treasury that the commissioners for the adjusunentot. the claims against France bad closed their labours, and,. having paid all they were called on to award, had a surplus remaining. It then became a question with the Treasury to determine what was to be done . with the surplus; and in the decision of this question, neither Mr. Canning b •who as Foreign Seeretary_hail the duty of announcing the fact to the Treasury„por the Lords of the Treasury, proceeded lightly, for they . applied to the King's Advocate for his opinion, Who reported that the purposes of the Act having been accompfithecti the Treasury possessed a discretionary power of. disposing of the overplus. After this the meeting took, place which has been alluded to, in which meeting the Tre4 7 ., sury decided, in concurrence with the Secretary -of State (for according to • the provisions •of - the . Act nothing could be• done without the concture,ce of the i ; two Secretaries.) In this meeting it was decided, futt ! that a certain portion of the surplus should Ise to served to discharge certain claims_which, though inad missible under the letterof the law, were considered• • such as in abstract justice ought to be satii.fiest-Ao - .:. Mate was then made that; by pitting !aide 2p0,00u1. tot t h at purpose,3oo,oool.wonld remain at thedisposalpf the Treasury. This was considered enough, and Are - th i • 'enough, for - the liquidation of the remaining cleitnia The 300,0001. would be at the disposal of the Treagury i ti for public purposes. Thus r by the,Aot 4..Pipheempic the Treasury being authorised to deal-with this .:Trphts., all pan s ies concurred in the appriierfaiiedof _thent,.entt, that they did so concur each individoll bats shikithownl by sabsequenz acts of his. Mr. Canning;Ailluly't • and Lord Liverpool and-Lord Goderich,tymerisures• iof theirs, showed that , they cest i carreda : ' B Yhey 4:.,pit. : , right to employ this tam in the, ritnuer. ,ther.dief nod were applying it to a just and, propel: abjeet...„l cast they were not warranted in agplying it to:iinr purpose bat to purposes for the geed Of the pubtiece They Rona , aidered they wore authorised by the Aet4olo apply is, They did so apply it. batin a tempowiryananiter.i.law,l. contend that they never alienated it-r-rtbey metely used,it conditioually for a certain public . purpose, unittfriri camstances which left to them ;thelroder Of resteririt that sum if ever it should appaiirlifisperto Parliament to.call for it, and for oi/they-bad the aothorityofraelia-. meet to apply it to * publie perpose, Tho.flon,filove.:9l. the* Resclutiona ha: compared this net with. forme, Measures, ta which, as precedents, it has . .no WO of Illetiess ; for if Ai were asked •in :heir a panident - in favour of this measure, I could - not fincl'any so fairotie abk, though of a contrary nature,•tbaoshatokthell • . Member ;• for that whiskbe has .quotediachatacterised by this distinct mark,. t.. bat. it catitaittse Oicgs.,of ill t safity, a charge which b . has not ventured' to. maks; on the present measure. . In the case on Which thil measure of 1811 was founded, a restriction hulk. placed by . Parliament . on. nppropsiatioe.ofribc:snii, to a purpose not authorised7hyslinliffent.; . .whPreasa in the present case, was not the . sum voted .by Parr liament for a particular purpose?-=(Cheers). - - Thtt4 Sir, I am right, and if Honourable Gentle:nen-won't* . remember the constitution of this .House, tlier.wonisl see that I am, In all cases of supply the, .Parliatioy, restricts the operations of the Government—lapt in a ease of ways and means, the funds are left to the Mil% wry for 'discretionary application to aoy public purpose.. As to the conduct of Sir C. SeymouMbat is not at-elk applicable to the. present case, for he lent money to the army beyond the amount granted by Parlirunent, and he feted illegally in .00 doing; but as for the . SUM destined for the erection of Buckingham Palace, no restriction bad been placed on it by Parliament. Parliament having bad no estimate of the-total expenses before it, could not, and did not fix the sum of expendi ture on that building at any definite sum; and thus the Tteasary was left to supply the deficiencies indefinitely out of the proceeds of the lands of the Crown ; and in appropriating the surplus to that object, they but an. tieipated the revenue derivable from • the sale of - those lands. They did not expend it on any purpose other than a public one.they did sot misapply, they merely anticipated the increasing of the fundi -which was being raised by the authority of an Act cf . Parliament, and which ultimately was to be devoted to this purpose.— The Parliament had authorised Government, in 1826, to raise a loan for the building offhickingbainPalace;on the sale of leases of the buildings on the site of Carlton Palace, and by another Ace of 1827.. on , the sale of lands in Ireland, land the appropriation of the surplus to the erection of Buckingham Palace wai but'an an ticipation of these funds. But it -may be ailed, why not rather raise 'money on these lands thaw so to ap 'propriate this surplus? For this reasona.that the mode adopted was the cheaper and more economical method ....as in borrowing•money it would have been necessary to pay a larger interest than was necessary in'the latter proceeding'; but then I may be Met With, Why penetrate to Parliament to ark permission * to appropriate it? To this 1 answer, it was not necessary, because they 'need not ask .Parliament to place at their disposal sums 'which were already at their dispusaL by Aet of F.aslia. meat. Parliament haniyig already.allowed them.tosaism a loan on the sale of land in Ireland, -anal leases. of Carlton Palace; and baring thus placed these-loods.at. ''. disposal of darTssasaryt wash necessary tbatithase . •r .• - 466, ,.1•11111MIMIirMni 11F i t !•311 persons who bate been so !wavily accused to-night. .Should come and ask Pollan/rent to grant them over again that prawn' eihOthey,alteadr possessdf by the authority, of those Acts . .if Pt liatnent? I said at the' .'cinteetthat I tChe with .snirie.' - degree . of pain to address the Iron , e on this subject, and•the reason was that it happened tit me in tny humble lot to be a parry in the transactions to which I allude, though in too horrible a.. situation to Like any important share in the affair, or to pAiticipate in the responsibility consiquenkopon it.— The Right Hon. Gentleman then proceeded to state,,, .that in the situation which he *(llr.,,Hetrie4) held Olen these transactions were going:ter-ward, it would be pre. snmption in him to suppose that, any part of thc blame, lit blame there was, could have.tallen on him. If he had then been in a situation to have advised.the Crown, he had no hesitation rn saying that he would have concurred with Mr. Canning, Lord Liverpool, and Lard Goderich. He would not have shrunk from stating as his opinion, that the application of this money to the purposes for which it was applied, was.not unconstitutional, but that Government, in so applying the money, had acted in strict conformity with the law, .aud had only applied 'the money to purposes for which Parliament authorised it to be expended. He did not consider that the appli cation of this money was any ground for the censure of the House. In all the cases that had been gutted, where Paliament had censured. the appropriation of money, the principle on which. the appropriation was censured had been, that the application bad not been, for the public service, and not for the purpose for which it was intended to he applied by Parliament. No cen sure was ever thrown on a Government which acted with the double authority from Parliament to use the money and to apply it to a particular purpose. He (Mr. Herries) denied the justice of the inference made by . the Honourable Gentleman (Mr. M. A. Taylor), that the Government bad appropriated a part of this money to the relief of .the distressed manufacturers, in order to "gild the pill." The Government had deter- Alined, to interfere for the relief.of the distressed mann.; tacturers. Parliament was not sitting at the time—this money .wan in the care of the Treasury, applicable to. - Pulslic purposes, and they did not think it necessary to Agild.a.pill" when they applied this money to the re lief of distress,which had increased to a most lamentable extent... The observations , of the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. M, A. Taylor) conveyed• a strong imputation, against the Government... it charged them .with subterfuge, 'unfairness, and trickery.. Could Geatlemen of so much honour have been guilty, of such meanness?—(Cheers ) Could they . have persuaded the, honourable Member tut' Micihttrit (Mr. John, Smith) to. have entered into such,lplan?..r r (Hear, front the Opposition•Benches.)— He 44 not know. is hat that cheer meant, Out he thought 'Unclog Honourable-Member to whom he • referred 11,001400 t bavelconcurred. ap:any. thing so mean and , , r pawoethy. The application .of this money had been a ' matterof grave aod serious deliberation. There were gre• a,:diffc„, ulties in the transaction,hut thoie difficulties weremitioidered, and the government evinced a dispo . sit.i.n.to avert the calamities, whichavere,jospeading. . ' Par. trt, e n. TAYLOR•tviatd,garsleu, ~ he had not Made the ' r ebaree against the Govertiolesd Witich tholtight Hon. Gentleman imputed robin.. - -. , - • - • • ~... • • • Mr: BERRIES ;ethitinirtit=lbe 'Hon. Gentleman 'bad died Vie tvordi to utild the pill," and nothing but meatiness could he itiferredlrom tech a charge. The Hoiri Gentlerninht'd coMplaitsed that Parliament had been tint in I)6s:es - bloat of doCuments for •whith he had. ~ t-fired, but was it not right thlttrailiansent should Pik in possession . 4 . 4 the dottitsientt?:—(Hear).—A rabctinsenti had beenlaid beftirelbelfinAnee - Cons. 'avirteiititthhad . got mins& *breed, 'and it' *as rigta that: larlaiMent sibtald'be in possession of the whole:-' Ht: iMiAiiiries . )- hisilitated . the.tase truly; and 'exactly es .4e had viituelied , it, end Is die . dOesimentsterdist the Wilier' proved'it.• ' Ht idlWays - ptesented himself •re-' liictnittli • berovn . *eV.; Wirs'se.. tlnd would }rive • it to 'iitheri to disCula the Cisistitutional poinr..• Helves suds fied the•whole transtittioi on the part of was:strictly Olivet ; that the execution of . .thepower •eked in t4CGoteiliMeat was striCifY, cilifict; and, that ,theGOirernment throughout the whole tragisaction had aitedAtmessly, uprightly, and legally. ' He .wat theie foielitepared toSive a direct negeti're to ,the motion mide,hy the• Hon. *Gentleman. ' .• * ' • _; . • • .• , MroBA RING said tbst Ads subject IN& eupgoi*heattantion ,of the Roam , Comniinee, and not seeing the -Chakman of that Committee in his place, be (Mr. 33.).tbsinght it necessary that some person should state the: real facts; for though they had. bean sowed by his :Mien. Friend,-.the Member for Durbans, they 0 were se changed and turned about by the Right Hon.. Gentleman • (Mr. Herries) that he doubted whether the House was heposses- 1 elistsfof them. It was quite impossible teeny that it was not the ' duty. of the House to take some notice of this transaction. , Is was usual., when opposing such motions, to propose some modi. ;fled proposition; but the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Herries) put the <Lucinda on a direct negative, and called on the House to • say that where se- strong and clear a case had been made out, no Mince-et/sawyer should be taken of it—(Hear). He was the more serprhell that. the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Herries) should hive put it on these grounds, when he recollected that the Right }fon. Gentleman, when in the Finance Committee, had admitted that the transaction was irregular.. He (Mr. Baring) could not ,stseak.positively as to what had fallen from the Chancellor of the •Reciseetww: in the Committee, but the Master of the Mint had certainly admitted that the transaction was irregular, and that he Wished. is bad been otherwise. Mr; -HERR:RS expressed his dissent. - Mr. BARlNGcontioned. He did not pretend exactly to re. cidlect the-Right Hoe. Gentleman's words, but he remembered .perfectly well that be (Mr. Baring) said in the Committee, that if 'a Misdate? of the Crown admitted the transaction to be irregular, .a Committee of the House of Commons was bound to 'lnquire ,whether another name should not be given to the transaction. , lielL KNATCIiBULL rose to order. He put It to the Hon. Ileralie„ whether it was fair or delicate that the Hon. Member Abouldeeter into what bad passed in the Finance Committee ? Mies of hear, bear: and order!) • Mr. BARING Mimed. If be was irregular, it was very right he shosdi hale heed called to Mkt, but be did not think he was out of it—{Hear). He 'typo not aware that there were any considera tions to prevent hiin from - alluding to the proceedings of a pubic Committee. The proceedings in daft case were before the House, and the House must deal with it. That the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite should feel considerably embarrassed at it, was not to him a matter of wonder. He (Mr. Baring) had himself objected to the dismission of *the question before the Finance Committee. He thought it important that in thaiConimittee they should avoid all question* of a personal nature, that they should not enter upon every little matter of rib& scandal. - Besides, the Noble Lord (Liverpool) who was at the bead of the Goiernment when this transaction took place, bad withdrawn from public life. A Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Canning) who bad been concerned in It, was no more. In fan's*: principal actors were out of the. ay, end be (Mr. haring>. inks, unwilling tP mil up the 'minden in the Inquiries of the Fjoaece Committee until it can under their consideration in the regular eourseuntil they came to the - penis cidr department with whichthis irehisiiion was connected. he thought, or center, :that Abe COnunittee were then booed to enter fully into the transaction, and he had drawn up a paper describing the precisenpumer in Which he thought the Committee should conduct the inqidry. .In the course be had pursued, and wished to pursue on this question, there was no desire for ends rating individuals—Sheri will no eh& intense feeling of party ac tuating him or any-of Ida Honourable Friends—(Hear, bear). This was not a question affecting the Ministry, nor any person in the Ministry to a great (Mr. Herne') had very properly stated that at the period when d "- . e- The Right Honourable Gentleman --e- this appropnatlon took place he was only under Secretary ,o( the Treasury, and could not „be..considered the responsible per son. For ooe person who was in some, degree responsible, he N./Mr. Baring): bad a rivet -eaters'. (W I inderitoed athe fliis g pourable Gentleman to allude to the late:fik. Canning): Thpt person was nossaare; but when be had Mien thelead• in affilei l lt bad induced hint (Mr. Baring) to change his * tint * in that Hot* • Is the only il l "" he . 4 4.. nCsivino him hie,binebk support:' IW .meadpsediy.,teilmil*nt Matti* Slit PI) chtts,Ulll,oool ...• • • with an unkind intention. He did nit Impose Motives to the Ministry—be did not charge them s triolatioo of constitutional principles—bet *Olw f .negligence, he thought , theyhad violated lb" Owner' .of that Hons.: He did not Wain Ulla Motion todlsA an the Mini Wry. As a Ministry, be did not .obi' nor did be wish to cast any serbitis reflections on fetdlvidi bets of ,the Administration. But the . House was bow to it; own character, and to those privileges whieh woeful and effictive. It they disregarded 'the C waver they possessed of controuling the public pr ischequer of the country, they abandoned. their The Right Honourable Gentleman seemed to raddress rather to perplex and to confuse' them f light on this subject. Two hundred and fifty thousand p or two hundred thousand pounds, were voted to enable the 'Commissioners of the Land Revenue to repair and improve 'Buckingham House. " For the improvensent and repairs of Buckingham House" were the words . The Crowh BeVgallig _ was the proper fund. Lord - Goderich stated that the repaielig might be estimated at 5100,0601. and as they occurred in 182$; the House contidered that the expense would run over niany years. To raise the sum necessary various modes were pointed out with great . precision—ampngst others the selling offices in Irelapd; but With , all the minuteness not a syllable was said of the money liebng‘ng - to the claimants of France. Parliament passed tb's Act under ike - ' supposition that the expense would not exceed 200,0004 But Is - this Parliament found itself entirely deceived. It would have been impossible if any other men had been concerned in it not to have said that it had been a trick to induce Parliament to begin`the wotk with the understanding that it would only cost '200,0001. Whilst it . was likely, before It was concluded, to amount to 630,0001. • 1 Mr. BANK ES here.lnterrupted Mr. Baring to observe, that the completion of Buckingham Palace would only come to 432,0001. i ... Mr. BARING resumed. He had understood that the archhe test himself admitted that the expense would not fall short at 800,0001. This . was no matter. He would come to the mot* - important part of the subject—bow this money had come into rho f - bands of the Cominissloners; and how it came to be dealt with, . as it had been by the. Treasury. It was said it had been MAO , disposal of the Treatuty, land legally, ht admitted, it was It Ride •I, disposal. But what aaithe meaning of Its being-pt the &span, ' 4 " . of, the Treasury? 'Why, that it Was in their hands for the oldie ...! service, and that they were accountable to Parliament for kal i : plicaticin. • The money was appropriated•on the 10th of 1826, when Parliament was sitting. There was no retire made' ' of the transaction to Parliament in 1827, and none in 4 . 828, utittfliit- • the accidental circumstance of two. Committees being eininrffin ' transaction came out. This was the gretonsem of the change. against the Governnsent. .• No one doubted the natutable riika ry of the Treasury tinisPoie ef the money, nor of Shy. funds kft7lik ' their hands by the 'House for general purposes:. Out Patin** '' "ought immediately to have received notice of the manner lir' . which the money•had been applied. If it had been ipplied . to : *- , , payment of the army or the navy, or the Sinking Fund, it would *.. have been irregular for the Treasury to have appropriated 'dire. money, which was; to all intents and purposes public nioney,Witis lo t out giving public notice of its appropriation. But if it would hies - ' been bad to have implied this fund to'the expenses of the-arm • • or navy, with Out the consent of Parliament, it was erotic t , appropriate it to a blind fund, like the Woode.and Forests, andto . apply it to building a palace for the Crown. However nedtssaryir, palace for the Monarch might - be, the - people'Wished, and histra right to do.a gracibus act of that kind themselves, and not ti bassi the money taken from them by stealth onto( a fund which ought' ; to have been appropriated for public purposes -( Hear ). He (kft.? Baring) was not one of those who thought that the Soule*" it - this country should not have a palace suited to his oration, 'add tit.' the importance of this country; he' would" not be niggardly bas.. . such a subject, but the people, through. their Represeotatives.bs • that House, bad a tight to vote the money for it. They. sat there until morning engaged in discussions abOut soloists fisherlei and • lunatic asylums, but they would be fit tot' lunatic asylums theinsi • selves if they allowed themselves to be wheedled and dragged • -.- through the dirt, and did not stand up for the right of the *Set ... !and for their own rights and the privileges. of Parliansen; l —. • • (Cheers) He was glad the Right MOO. Geatlemae had, ansWeret : the motion by a direct negative. This *cued enable MX .Hini. 'Friend, at all events, to record the words of that motion, mike:. would prove the principle upon which those. who' sepportml t:•,• .- * ). t voted —( Hear. bear.) . ... • Mr. BERRIES begged to be, allowed i word in expLinatleollo• The language he used in the Fininee Coninifttee; and which * Honourable Gentleman had 'alluded to, didsint refeeto the apisista •priation of the money. He bad applied the words.i.it we:it-molar. , .or be wished it was otherwipe, to the circumstance that the account" of the • application of the money had not been ribitisly faid'bi•V .fore Parliament. Mr. BARING-kies the • Right tiloi. flaliffiniAenow *idtiliti i. 'that the iitglecting to lay sot account:at* wansatealeas.hefote.Pat .ttsment was irregular?- : (11tor.). „:..... ' -....• !:; . Mr. HARIIIES-4 anieerlectly readfto roptult-irhatiliale la . the Committee, that as to that tin of the ' tratiseidoo•l Wished IC Ara, otherivise.-(ll ene, heir). • `Mr. BAIIII•16.1-thers4 hope that the Right. He* Gectlemsug ~ Will have no objection that- the Howe shouldlikewhe express ittti • wish that part of the transaction had been otherwise—(Hear, hear t ,. . and laughter). . 7 Mr. ARBUTHI(OT said the Hon. Membei for Durham• bad' mikotated the facts. - When Lord Goderi& brought in the Bilt ‘ for. repairing the Palace, he knew that the funds which Par' .•, meet voted would •not be suilicient. It lappened. that in c , Mlsece - of the rapidity with whic h the .Worka were -cati ' en, that there was .trot a WOW' in tilt Woods : and Poieur 4 sufficient to meet the expense.•• -He ltrVA..: called •one *ink.; ing on Lord Godeeleb, and the subject Aims. introduced. Mt; *Kenzie, one of the Commissimusrs foe the claims ote.tlin - , Preach Government, was asked in what siate the fund Was?l It was said to be. about 500,0001., - aid It atipeareti at the saw time that the claims did hot amount to more than 200,00040 there was consequently a surplus, and it was said that surplult• might be applied to the building of thh Palate, not an appr priatiop without the consent of Parliament, bit im a loon , to repaid by mooeyegpected to be foitheonsing from The -*mid • Forests. • .11e could not agrie to thewitemedi• thin thi . Lor d s ' the Treasury had not the power to Make this sempairy use' of tho; money in their bands. On the face of the Act- ot Parliament the - were authorized to do it. •He believed with, his Right Hosibm Friend, that it would have been better if the' transaction •,. been made' known to Parliament ; but 'there had been no eruct position to withhold consmunicatiosis froth Parliament of ft**. expended by the Department to which be belonged. ' In ceases queue of the work* In Regent-strew having required a loilsk . nom than Parliament bad provided, they applied to the' Sun efflux for a loan - of 4 500,00ut.- - aud obtained the same amount frail . ' the Bank. Theie Mote were brought before 'Parliatnent; and there was no desire to keep hack any facts :from Parliameht.* T. Honourable Member stated - that the land revenue had been .tab. creasing. In the reign of King cileorge 111. the amount was.lo,oooC. per annum. They bad •novr between 30 aril 40,000 acres, which, supplied timber for the use of the couotfy, and a revenue of 150,0004 a year. • . Lord HO WICK adverted to the expense Ofluilding the Palacio as stated by, Lord Goderich. The statensehttstiginally made vial' 200,0001. and by the last Report, he understood the building Would amount to 430,0001. The Noble Lord cited the *speech of Me. Pitt upon the application of Public Funds briar the sanction of Parliament, and upon the opinion of that Minister he drew a con. elusion that there had been in- the present installs a gross missy ptication of a public fund. Mr. HUSKtSSON commenced by sayPng, that-the Hon. Member for Callington (Mr. Baring) had stated that - Governmen t had an estimate before them for Car building of the palace • at Buckinghim-house, which estimate was limited to the sum of 200,0001. Now what his Noble Friend, the then Chancellor of the Ex f chequer, said was this—that the estimate would not be less than 200,0001.; and it would be remembered by' the. House, that when that sum was voted, it was era. ,pressly understood that a palace should be erected far more worthy of the sovereign than Buckingham. house. The present palace was built, it was true. upon a different site from Buckingham-house, but the difference of situation formed no addition to Vigs expense incurred. His NOble - Friend (Lard Goderich), who was then Chancellor of the Exchequer, .dis.. tinctly said that he would not pledge himself • on to the amount which the building might ultimately 1 cost. At that time, to be sure, there existed in the House a feeling of a more liberal—he meant -a mere pliaot—nature with :respect to the voting .of Money, than appeared to exist at-present. There coull trot have been a stronger proof of a disposition on. throPatt 'of the House to build a PAL'S* stetthy.of theNernaten . . than arose from the circumstance of the grant' he been allowed, on the underatiotlin % g thit Claret n Mee t wits not.to be,limited to the turn which was *Ored, 4 but thati.aiallevents4Valaceihopld 'Cs iii;iit 6( 'for • the -residence of the King of these' realossi .nlO .hose . 1 / 1 1 inight observe, th'it the King of England - was,•liy. no meat bitter 044' with respect' . to Palaces, thee' she 'caber. =wawa bock w 6; ligg i ti % . 0* iitiliiite . . ;~; , •••••• ?*:..zrtr _.• i ' .•~. .. . • e an y IllartaP in wish. any gr c* queeiesweerl4o,,, , Fliers and D• half . 1311 . ,at ,objhrt fodhia mat Mt* u bound tb.l6iit• Isteh rendered it ie Cooathnttotte purse, and the ir own rithse.—• id intend than to throat • 'bousand pounds, '• • •• ..... 4 _.-