Star. — London, England, 1802-12-03 00:00:00

r . d to wt lota mesa. they ': - ' -, 1 , -!. 1:"; .-. ; ;;ions there never would he wanting numbers to undertake any de!perate expedition. Suppofing vit inch a convullion as that. to which he had al lbould °dot tunately take'place, there would be thouf4nds ready to undertake any thing which old have for its oh's& the deft ruetion nf thisc(ltm- try. If our Navy was kept on a refpeetable eltablifh- °e nt, he had not , n o r could an y reafonable man, ent ertain the lea ft a pprehenfon from ;illy fuch hof tile and defperate efforts. From the fituation said:, during a year, he had held on the French coa ti, t o watch the motions of their fleets, he could !late with certainty to the Houfe, that from the ports of France itfelf there was no danger to be apprehended of fudden invafion. In all their har bours, from which veffels adapted to the pnrpofe of fudden invafion could fail, he had obferved that there was no opporturity for veftels drawing more than IS feet to leave them, even at high water, without being artificially dragged beyond the pier, and the greateft number which in one day could leave the different ports of France could not ex ceed fifty, even on the largeft calculation. Sudden invafion from thole ports was therefore not to be dreaded. But the cafe was widely different fince France had obtained fo many ports on the Eaftern 'bores oppofite thole parts of this country which were molt liable to invafion ; for, from the influ ence which France polkaed over Holland, every Dutch pert was to be fuppofed to afford, in every point of view, facilities for any proje& of fudden invafion. If, therefore, any of thole Brutufes who had figured at the time to which he had already alluded, fhould fucceed in patting an end to the life of the Firft Conful of France—an event which he for his part molt heartily deprecated, and would, if any thing depended on him, ufe every means to prevent, from horror at a crime in all cafes to be abhorred And execrated--a fleet might in the courfe of one night land forcesin this country,and proceed to outrages the moft dreadful, before invafion was anticipated. The Hon. and Gallant Knight concluded with earneftly imprefling on Minilters, in common with the Houfe, the neceflity of hold ing out every encouragement to thole employed in the public fervice. He placed in a ftrong point of view the mifchief which would refult from an idea going abroad that the bonourable fervice of the country in the military or naval departments was not likely fo rapidly to condud to honours or rewards as Cervices of a much lets refpedable kind. He begged the Houfe to confider, that if any thing ended to juftify fuch an idea, there would not be wanting perfons to improve on the hint, however fuggefted. The Honourable Member, in illutlration of his fentiments on this part of the fubjed, alluded to fome notices of this defcription which had appeared on the cover of a publication pretty generally circulated in, which the roads to the favour of Majefty and the honour of Knight hood, were much more eafily to be purchafed, than through the tedious and laborious toils of war.— After reading this ftrange notice, he fat down, propofing to hand it over to his Majefty's Attor ney General, who would, no doubt, take fuch Reps as the nature of the cafe required. Mr. STuaors, after a few obfervations on the fubjed of the Dock Yards, the particular dircuffion of which he avoided, as an Honourable Friend of his (Captain Markham) would fpeak mote fatif fadorily than he could pretend to do on this to pic, remarked that he was perfealy difpofed to give his unqualified approbation to the propofition more immediately before the Houfe. He was rea dy to give his cordial vote for the number of lea men propofed to be employed, on the mere ground that Minifters were the perfons moil competent to judge what was the number which the exigencies of the public fervice required. He could not, however, help nbferving, that fo extraordinary a mode of voting the fupplies for the public fervice," as that which Minitters had offered to the Houfe, did not occur in the whole hiftory of Parliamen tary proceedings. It was, he was convinced, the firft inftance where a peace eftablifhment, to fo large an amount, a peace eftablifhment far exceed ing any former . eftablifitment in our national hill tory, had been propofed to be voted without the ilightell communication to the Houfe on the rub jed. The language held on this occafion by the Right Honourable Gentleman at the head of his Maittly's Councils had filled him with inexpreflible aftonilhment. He certainly had expeded on the part of Minifters fome generalexplanation, to prove the neceffity of an ellabliflunent which, differing from all preceding ones, was to be joilified on new principles. It certainly, in his opinion, did behove Mininers to make fuch a communica tion to the Houfe as might be the ground of In !hiking a change. What, he begged leave to, afle, was the fituation of the country, and what was the language which the fpeech held out to the Houfe and to the country ? The country was in a Rate of , profound tranquillity, and'the fpeech offered no thing but a profped of the continuance of ex ternal peace. Nothing of a dread of rupture was hinted at; nothing was raid of the neceffity of fupporting a large Elablithment. He was fore that this was the impreffion which the Speech was calculated to create ;—and he 13:4- ged leave to rccal to the recollection of the Houfe, that it was fo under-flood by an Honourable Gentleman, not now prefent (Mr. Fox), who, when he gave his approbation to the Addrefs, beg. ged that it Might not be fuppofed, that in voting for the Addrefs he pledged himfelf to vote for the maintenance of a large enablifliment. That Hon. Gentleman had indeed gone farther, and had hated, that he referved to himfelf the full power of canvafling any ettimates which might after wards he propofed for the public fervice. He did not make thefe obfervations becaufe he thought that the propofition was liable to cenfure, but be caufe the impreflion on his mind was, that fuch %%is the fenfe in which the Winds was underftood, When the Addrefs to his Majefty was under dif cutlion. He was not one of tliofe who entertained the idea that our principal fecurity confined in the greatnefs of France. This idea, he was forry to perceive, on a former occafion, had been appa rently acquiefced in ; and there were not wanting perfons, both in the Houle and the country, who thought that French power contained within itfelf Air the feeds of decay.- If Itench pews had only "wigwiff • • bee% derived from the efinquA of defencelefs Rates, he was ready to allow that there would have been fome reafon for entertaining filch an opinion. When h_ faw, however, that every new conqueft and every new aggrandifement was a real and folid acceflion of flrength ; when he faw every effort of nature combined with every ex ertion of art, confpiring to increafe this ftrength ; when he faw the left bank of the Rhine under the dominion of France ; when he contemplated Holland not merely allied to France, but under the domineering power of French influence ; when he beheld the fortreffes of Piedmont and the mountains of Switzerland feized upon by their ra• pacious and dcfpotic hand ; when every other State on the Continent was fubjed to their deftrudive inroads, had he not, confidering all thefe circum fiances, a right to conclude that French ambition and French hoftility were objeds of the molt watch ful jealoufy and the molt unremitting precaution ? Such was the view which he entertained of French power. But, had not the French Government, in addlion to the reafons for precaution drawn from this four ce, manifefted the molt obvious fpirit of hoftility t He was unwilling to go into any detail of the evidences of this hoftdity, nor would he fay how far thefe ads formed a new ground of hofti lity. With Minifters, he molt fincerely defiled the continuance of peace. That he believed was the. with of every one prefent, and the only ground of difference was refpeaing the means to be employed for fo important an end. But to judge of thefe means a very material point for confideration was, the prefent fituation of the country. In fpeaking on this part of the fubjed he confeffed that he might be accufed of ignorance ; but he might with fair nets retort, that if he was premature in offering any remarks on this topic, then Minifters fubjeded themfelves to a fimilar objection by fubmitting a propofition to the Houfe, when not one of the grounds on which it was effered were explained. He would remark, however, that the terms of the treaty were non-executed on our part, and this non execution might either be the caufe of war on the part of France, or the effea of a hoftile fpirit dif played by that power. Whether it was the caufe or the effea, it was equally impoilible for the Houfe to determine, without a full communication of circumftances, which Minifters had thought proper to withhold. On this part of the fulsjea, he begged leave to remind the Houle of the language employed by a Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Addington) on a former occafion, when he allured the Houfe there was no reafon what• ever to dread a rupture, and that he law no reafon to fuppefe that this peace tnight not be as Lifting as any of thole which had been concluded for the laft century. If there ever had culled any difpo fition to doubt the truth of this ftatement, or more properly to have feared that fo fanguine a profped would never be realized, certainly the propofition of this night was not calculated to do them away. He, for his own part, united that the Rigbt Hon. Gentleman was not too fanguine in the expeaa dons he had formed, and that it never would with truth be faid of him— Intentus minium meta Sono non amt. This would be a fort of fupinenefs and fecurity, fatal to the belt interefts of the country, and he could not conclude what he had offered to the ' Houfe more ftrongly, than by expreffing his ar dent with that every precaution would be ufed to connteraa any defign on the fafety of our foreign potreflions, and above all to guard againft any un expeded invafion of our native coafts. Captain MARKHAM fpoke at fome length, chief ly in reply to the obfervations on the cubic& of the regulations of the Board of Admiralty, on their late infpeCtion of the diffeient ports. The Houfe had been given to underftand by an Honourable Gentleman (Sir Sidney Smith) that a number of perfons had been difmifted from different dock yards ; but efpecially from the dock-yard more particularly. conneEted with the city which the Hon. Gentleman had the honour to reprefent ; true it was that a confiderable number of perfons had been difmiffed in that dock yard, in common with others, but he now took on himfelf to fay, that no one perfon was ditsniffedwho was not difabled from fervice from age, otherwife deficient in the dif charge of his duty, or fo grofsly negligent, that he was a much fitter fubjeet to be brought before a court of common law, than to be treated with the lenient fentence of difmiffal from office. He had alto to Rate, that in no cafe had a difmiffal taken place in the cafe of deferring individuals where a penfion had not been granted, and many had received a penfion who had never formerly been allowed one under fimilar circumftances. He would not now fay that the total effed of thefe re gulations was hither experienced, becaufe on feveral of the cafes of augmentation of penfions the confent of his Majefty was previoufly necelfary ; but they were now in the dired train of execution, and he had no doubt when completed they would meet with the full and unrefervcd approbation of the Houfe. If the Hon. Gentleman who had taken up this point, or any other Hon. Member iu the Houfe, fhould at any fubfequent period require more full and minute information,heflsould be hap, py to meet their inquiries; and he was confident that to the real friends of economy in the public fervice, therefult would afford entire fatisfaftion. There was another defcription of perfons difmilred from his Majefty's fervice refpeding whole cafe he had only to make one or two obfervations ; thefe were the caulkers, who had united in a confpiracy with thofe in the fameirade in the merchant (hips in the river. He needed hardly to recal to the remembrance of the Houfe that the object of this confpiracy was to obtain the fame amount of wages during peace as during war. The confequences of fucli a combina tion were ferious in the greateft degree, and in con fequence of the application of the Merchants and Ship Owners, the Lords of the Admiralty had taken the fubjea into confideration. An offer had been made to thefe refraaory Caulkers to enter into the fervide of the Merchants, and tech of them as refuted were immediately difmiffed. If this was a ground of charge, he was at all times ready to meet it, and to there -in the cenfure, it cenfure lhould be judged applicable to (itch conduit on the part of the Board of Admiralty. On the ; . ~.,,R, . augmentation of Out Peal oners, he made a Teri few•obfervations. He cleared the Right Hon:Gen tleman to recollect that the place was a very late intlitution, and that it wasdefigned only for the re. ception of thofe who had been fo feverely wounded as to be totally unqualifiedforlabour,and thofe who were wounded, but not to the fame extent, in his Majetly's fervice. For the relief of the other de fcription of feamen, Rated to be in a fituation of deplorable diflrefs, there was provided the chef at Chatham ; and if thefe ditireffed objetis were not provided with fmart tickets from their refpeeive Captains, which, he was forry to fay, was too often the cafe, Government was not to be taxed with this omiffion. On the lubje6t of the infuffi ciency of the allowance to out-penfioners, he de clined entering, but contented h;mfelf with remark ing that it was equal at this moment to what it was at any former period. With refpeet to the Hon. Gentleman's allufions about the French theatre (a laugh), he had nothing to fay to them, he knew nothing of the matter, and certainly thou ld give himfelf very little trouble about it: he ha.i faid on the fnbjea to which he was particularly called to fpeak,' what, he hoped, had given fatis i . faCtion to the Houle, and ihould be happy to dif cufs the whole of the late regulations of the Board of Admiralty at length, whenever Gentlemen de fired it. . Sir SIDNEY SMITH, in explanation, difclaimed any intention to attack the Admiralty, and regret : ted that he had the misfortune to know any thing about the political theatre of France (laugh). Lord PROSY took notice of the cafe of a man who was difmiffed from Dock at Plymouth, who had been employed there for thirty years and up wards, and had always fupported an unimpeached charadter. At a moment like the prefent, when preparations, conducted with extraordinary rapi dity, might be required, it was, in his opinion % el. fential to avoid every thing like injullice or unne• necetTary feve: ity. He had mentioned the cafe now alluded to, as one in which no reafons were affigned for the difmiffal, and when reafons were asked by the perfon difmiffed, the only anfwer given was, that the Admiral►y had no further occafion for his Cervices. Capt. MARKHAM raid, in explanation, that the Board of Admiralty were not in the habit of af figning reafons for any difmiffal which they might think it expedient to order, for the benefit of his Majefly's fervice. As to the particular cafe refer red to, a good deal might be raid, if that were the proper opportunity of entering on the fubjedt at length. The fad, however, was, refpeaing Ply mouth Dock, that amongfl other grofs abufes dif covered, one radical one was, that the timber was of a very bad quality. It was received into the Dock with the full knowledge that it was bad timber; and on this and other grounds equally flrong, the builder was difmiffed from his Majef ty's fervice. The Board, fo far from deferving blame, might, perhaps, be liable to cenfure, in not bringing an individual guilty of fuch abufe to a much more fevere punifhment than mere difmifFal from his employment.—Lord PROBY explained. Sir ROBERT LAURIE entertained warm hopes of receiving from his Majefly's Minifters fome expla nation, that might ferve as a clue, leading to fome jufl conclufion as to the real profpeets of this COUR try with refpeet to war or peace. The Right Hon. Gentleman who, with fo much ability, opened this debate, had made two demands of explanation from his Maje fly's Miniflers, which were certainly upon fubjeas of the firft importance, but neither of which had been anfwered by the Right Hun. the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The one was, with refpe6t to Malta ; the decifion refpedling which was Rill a myfteryl for although the Right Hon. Gen tleman had allured the Houfe that we had a Prong fleet in the Mediterranean-, he had not afferted that we had there a Cafe or friendly port for its recep tion. The other queftion refpeeted Switzerland ; regarding which it was underfood that a remon ftrance had been made to the French Government, on the part of his Majefty's Government ; but as to the refult of that remonftrance, this Houfe was utterly in the dark. It was, therefore, important for the Houle to be informed, what had been the ifftte of that remonftrance ; whether it had been made and fupported with that degree of firmnefs and vigour. on the part of his Majefty's Minifters, befitting the dignity, honour, and charaCter of the Britifh nation; which would deferve the confidence of Parliament, and of the country, and that fup port which thofe Minifters called for this night, in a force of so,ooo feamen ? Or, whether, with that languid and wavering fpirit which fhould difqualify them for the confidence of the country, and render them unfit to be trufted with power; which,inftead of enabling them to enfure peace, would be more apt to provoke war ? To thole queftions he deemed it highly neceffary that an explicit anfwer fhould be given. Lord HARKESBURY raid, that after the full and able explanation given by his Right Hon. Friend, (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) it would be unneceffary for him to detain the Houfe long, in what he felt it neceffary to fay on the fubjed in debate. The Hon. Gentleman had argued, that before his Majelly's Minifters had called for the maintenance of fo formidable a force for the en- Cuing year, they ought to have fully explained the reafons which, in their apprehenfions, rendered fuch a force neceffir•y. He would deny that fuch an explanation was previoufly neceffary, as of courfe, or as called for by any uniform ufage in Parliamentary Proceedings ; but more efpecially, as his Majefty, in his Speech from the Throne, on the opening of Parliament, had fated the necef- City of keeping a vigilant eye on the Continent, and maintaining an adequate force, as the beft means of fecurity in the prefent critical pofture of Europe, and the afped of Continental affairs; and it was very well underftood by Gentlemen, that this was to prepare them for the propofition of keeping up a formidable Army and Navy. Such 'ea explanation, therefore, as that required of Mini aers, as to the fate of the country, was not called for by the praCtice of the Houle; nor did it feem to have been expeCted by thofe Gentlemen who au ally oppofe his Majefty's Minifters. Even laft year, at the time of the armament of the Northern Con federacy, a large force was moved for;. founded _2 `: i' - 77; . out the2neceffity of auftiteiidfts explanation being infillea upon, and' the meafure was warmly ap proved by a Right Hon. Gentleman not now in his place ( Mr. Foxy) who was not much in the habit of approving the meafures of Admini Ilration. That Hon. Gentleman, or thole with whom he was in the habit of acing, did not think it meet . - fary to attend in their places on this occation,either to approve the meafure, or arraign its precipitanc y without previous explanation. But, above all men, how fuch oppofition and cenfure fhould come from thole who were loudeft in founding the alarm of public danger, and thought no expedition could be too rapid, and no force too formidable, for the public fafety : how they fhould be the foremoft to oppofe the confidence which the Houfe had ben in the habit of giving to the Executive Government, in the difpofal of the Army and Navy, without a minute explanation and expofure of the !late of the country, he was wholly at a lofs to account. In fact, he could not Rate any particular circumilance, in the fituatiun of the country, upon which the ne ceffity of maintaining a greatpublic force was found ed ; nor could it be expeded that he fhould make any explanation which might be detrimental to the public fervice. The neceffity 'was founded upon exifting circumilances, known to all Europe; and which, therefore, required no explanation. No r ~ man was more ready to canfult economy in a peace eftabliflunent than he thould be, hut at the fame time he would appeal to recent experience, as well as to former wars, that a parfimonious lav ing, by the reduction of the public force in our ufual peace eftabliflnent, was not proved ulti mately to be true ceconomy. Becaufe, when dri ven to the neceffity of commencing a new war, confiderable time has elapfed before the Country has been able to put forth that degree of her ftrength, which ultimately fecured her fucceffes, and enabled her to regain peace. That ftrength has ufually been recruited under the operation of war, by which great loffes have been fuftain ed without any good effeds ;—and war pro longed confiderably beyond the time at which it might have been concluded, had the whole of the National Strength and refources been brought to action at &ft. Therefore the Peace Ella blifhment of the Country fhould be always fuch as to enable the Executive Government, at all times, to affume a refpedtable attitude, and com mence the operations of war with effect, whenever circumftances rendered them unavoidable. The Hon. Gentleman,who infilled fo ftrenuoufly on the neceffity of previous explanation, feemed to forget that it was avowed by his Majelty's Minitters, that, configering the circumftances under which the Peace was concluded, it would be neceffary to keep up a much more extenfive Peace Ellablifh ment than had ever been ufual on former occafions; and he would even appeal to the ftatements made this night by Hon. Gentlemen themfelves, of the inordinate acquifitions of territory and influence made by France, over fo many other countries of Europe—whether the ufual peace eflablifhment of this Country, would be fufficient to warrant us in a reliance upon our fecurity ? With refped to the war, which Gentlemen feemed fo reluctant for con cluding—if nothing more was to be got by it, was not the Country likely to be much better circurrk (lanced in a Peace which enabled her to recruit her ftrength and finances, in cafe it fhould be neceffary to renew the conteft, than to go on in the expenditure of her refources, without ob jell, or good purpofe to expea? That fo great a force as that now propofed, was not advifable for a permanent Peace Eftablifhment, he would readily allow; but in the prefent profped of Europe, it was one not only neceffary to be kept up, but increafed, if appearances required. It was the duty of his Majefty's Miniflers to look with the molt jealous vigilance at the condo& of France ; and to watch every ftep of defperate encroachment, or ambitious aggrandifement on the part of that Power, which could in the re. motet degree lead to hoftility; and at the com mencement of next feffion it would be competent for the Houfe to reconficLl the effect of the mea lure of this night, and to retain or increafe the force, if neceffary. In fhort, his Majefty's Mini tiers, keeping as they had done, the conduit of France in view, and looking at the exiting Rate of Europe, felt it their duty to be prepared for either alternative; preferring molt certainly peace if maintainable, but evincing a fpirit to !hew that we are prepared for war, fhould it be ultimately unavoidable. At the fame time he wifbed by all means to avoid, and to deprecate, that fpirit and. tone of irritation, which could do no poffible good, but might lead to much mifehief. One point more he had only to Rate, as his firm convktion, namely, that differing entirely from Gentlemen who argued that an armed peace was as bad as war ; he would maintain that a peace eftablifh ment, at its largelt extent, was preferable to.yar, and made a difference in the public expences of near 25 millions per ann. Upon the whole, how. ever, he was content to put the vote of the nigh t upon the notoriety of the exiting (late of Europe Mr. CANNING heard, with the fincereft pleafure• the able and candid explanation of his noble friend' for whom he profeffed the higheft perfonal etteem and had the explanation preceded the fpeech of his Right Hon. Friend over the way (Mr. Grenville) who opened the debate, it would have obviated the neceffity of the difcuffion which had taken place ; and have produced as much unanimity, in the vote for the Supply, as he could have with. ed. But at a time when Parliament was called together, under the utmoft anxiety and folici tude for the fafety of this Country, it would have been but decorous in his Majefty's Minitters, to have preceded their demand for fa great a fiip ply, by fome explanation, on the ground of its ne ceffity. There were fome other points which ren dered explanation peculiarly neceffary. There feemed to be fame material alteration, both in the form and fitbflance of the mealure, even during the fhort time fine it was firti propofed. Then it was mentioned as only neceffary for three months, but afterwards the demand, without any reafon affigued, was extended to a whole year. The firt demand, in common Parliamentary rccept akin, implied that fotn,r,itiegociatioia was on foot, which was taiidy in'its prpgrphogito bring which to a ti re. raw blot ick it was a oubt, mot be le fur: üblic. fuel sand ,they , . •" ' l ‘ • I