Star. — London, England, 1828-06-25 00:00:00

Who were frequently obliged to go as running their coaches at a loss, in hopes of better times. What he 'totted referred to the Right Honourable Member for Liverpool, who made use of an argument, ad ridicalum, by which be held up several respectable persons—he Meant the body of shipowners of Scarborough—vo ridicule. That was on the 18th of May, 1827, when the Right Honourable Gentleman said of them. in a tette appriiaching to a sneer, that, " this was the allega tion of the shipowners of Scarborough," whereas the petition referred to was from an individual not con nected with the body, and he, therefore, called upon the Right Honourable Gentleman to admit he was ial error upon the point. Mr. ii USICISSON owned he felt surprised at the Gal: las Officer finding on the 24th June, 1828, the opportu nity fOr the first time to correct a misrepresentation al to have been made so long back as some time in 1827,m0re especially too when the House had been only a week ago occupied the whole night with a dis cussion similar to what had taken place on the occasion alluded to. If lie had given pain to the inhabitants of Scarborough—who, he believed, did not send the Hon. and Gallant Officer as their representative, and who, if they did, did that which might have been done through hoe of their Members—he would have perhaps felt more on the subject. He could not. however,. then, not being apprised by the Gallant Officer of the attack intended, recollect the precise circumstances; and in deed it would be too much to call to mind all that he had said 14 months ago, and refer to documents which be Might then have made use of; but he regretted that any ill feeling should have been cherished after such a lipse of time. He never denied that the alteration of the currency must have an effect as welt upon freights is other transactions. And when the Gallant Officer (Sir J. Yorke) thought that it was lucky that he was now nothing. he might perhaps say the same of the Gallant Officer's long continuance in the same state, and hoped that while he had been out of office, he had been able to exhibit as many proofs of good temper as the Gallant Officer had during his long existence in the same unfortunate situation. Mr. ROBINSON defended the Petitioners from the charge of inconsistency brought against them by the. Honourable Gentleman opposite (Mr. Warburton), as they only came forward to show the poverty eegen acted by the present system. The Hon. Gentleman said, that as to ship building in North America, that was at an end. Mr. DUNCOMBE confirmed the statement of the Hon. and Gallant Officer (Colonel Trench).as to Scar borough, he having been entrusted with the Petitions referred to. Mr. HUME said, if guilt attached to the present system, be was a sharer in it, as he had promoted the passing of the Reciprocity Aga. When he did so, how ever, it was on the understanding that all taxes should be taken off which would militate agaii*t fair eompeti. , tion on the part of the British people. That bad been dline as respected hemp and cordage, but continued upon timber, which he objected to. He also thought, thit although he never would wish to see the wages of British seamen lower than they were, a fair opportunity should be allowed to the ship-owners:of laying in their provisions and sea stock at any place where they could heve them upon equally cheap terms with foramogra.l When there was no doubt we should be able to compel, with them. Mr. HEATHCOTE thought, that incidental debates -el - this kind could do no good, and that it would be bitter to post pone further discussion until the next Session. Gen. GASCOYNE thought, that the currency must hive a material influence on the question, and was sure that the present measures respecting it would be greatly altered. if not repealed, before neat April. The Hoc. General referred to his Colleogne's declarations to his constituents, and did not think his measures altogether consistent with them. tie also said, that the Honour.. able Gentleman (Mr. Warburton) had mach more of his capital invested in Foreign than in British shipping. 'Sir J. GRAHAM rescued the petitioners from the l charge of inconsistency, as they did sot state the reduc-1 tion of 60,000 tons to refer to their own shipping, but, as the effect produced upon the general proceedings of those engaged io the trade throughout tbe country. Mr .1; YORKE add. that be had not meaat any offence to the Right Heassnible Member for Liverpool. Colonel TRENCH said, that he had on a former oc casion addressed a note to the Right Hon. Gentleman,' intimating his intention to mention the subject he bad alluded to, but was not favoured with any reply. He had also the other night intimated the same through the Hon. Member for Worcester, wherefote be hoped he bad rescued himself from any charge of discourtesy. &Me a few words from Rh C. BeiILELL and the CIIMICILLOIL of L, the Petitioa was ordered to be laid ea the table. al l die modem that it be printed. ..; Q GRANT said, that great injustice bad been tele 'to his Right Honourable Friend in the repeated ducossions on this subject; and be (Mr. Grant) wished that tiOnotuable Members would be good enough to get Wrote inforsiaat ion on this subject before they levelled attacks at those who did know something about it. The reciprocity system, which it was now the fashion to abuse in certain places, had commenced in 1810, iniposed upon them by the necessity of the times, and the change of circumstances. Practically, it existed long. before 'that period, and since it had been called into operation by an Or der in Council, and not, as stated, Is k y the fat or the will of his Right Honourable Friend. He asked them to look at the page of history, and in doh* so be *mild tearlessly ask them if it would have Wen possible any longee,to retain a system of impotent barbarism, such. as had existed upon this immense sub ject?—(Cheeri.)—Look at the state of Europe 50 years ago and now, America was then a dependent colony ; America was now one of the first couetriesinthe world. The whole face of Europe, of tba world, bad altered and improved ;. and he must protest against this goes tiOn being argued in selfish, narrow, miserable grounds ; for let it not be forgotten, that it was not until the course of :Nittut and the voice of the people forced it upon them that they yielded--(Cheers). The best interests of this greet country were trammelled by the ancient sydem—her energies were crippled — hex activity lin. pahed ; but still, li was not till others forced the reci rear system Rpm this country that the Government acceded to it. The fore* of freedom--the force of in tellect—the general improvement of mankind gave,rise to that independent, that wise, and political system, in whose continuance the prosperity Of the world can be alone maintained—(Cheers). Whenever the free trade svievvs was discussed on the proper principles, i hn sa4rold begiund ever ready to defend them. . Mr. rIt*ING agreed with the Fight Hon. Gentleman 'rho bad just spoken, thit the.reciprocity system grew but of the recommendation of a Committee of the Bore, and did not proceed from the Right Hon. Gen tletiast (Mr. I:l4,ltisrn). . The Patties was thee ordered'to be 'glutei. . , Mr. *. HOtt i rOtt `s -• to not e for the =eif beinigis i si 1000 the coasideration of at* t Itspoiatm a die ?Oita sf sukiyakis.. ft, . ~. . would not impose *spew Parliament the necessity of taking any decided Measure at the present moment; it merely would go .te pledge the Houses to•take op the su bj e ct eark in the ensuing Session. No man having lac w ar moderate acquaintance with the condition of Ireland could doubt that pauperism does eaist in that country under the most frightful circumstances. Such being the stat( of things, ought there to be the slightest hesitation on the part of the Legislature to adopt some measures of relief ? Were they not most imperatively called to take some decided steps ? Who could undertake to foretel the consequences that must ensue From the na tural tendency to spread itselfthroughout the whole com munity, which such a condition in any one part of it necessarily created.? He was astonished in a debate on 1 a former evening to hear it stared by his Hon. Friend,l not now in his place (the Member for Kerry), that it was a mistake• to suppose that the state of behind called for the especial consideration of that House.--a His Honourable Friend referred to the export. and ins• ports, for the purpose of showing the prosperity of that country ; and it also astonished him to find that pot only such was the opinion of that Honourable Mem ber, but that he found some supporters in that House. Out of it there was some reason to believe that his opinions were but little adopted. The Bishop of Li .nserick, no mean authority upon subjects connected with Ireland, had in his evidence before the Committee appointed in the year 1826, to inquire into the state of Iceland, avowed sentiments goiter opposite to those of the Honourable Member for Kerry, and those who thought with him. No one who was aware of the' character and situation of that Prelate could for a mot .Ment impute to him any undue bias, or at all question ; his impartiality and competence. With the permis sion, of the House he would then read a passage from the evidence of that Right Rev. Prelate,which be conceived to be most confirmatory of the statements be had been making.—(The Right Honourable Gentleman then read an extract from the evidence of the Right Rev. Prelate.) On reflection, lie thought by possibility, that it might be objected to that evidence, that inasmuch as it was delivered in the year 1826, it might be in no wise ap plicable to the year 1828—that, in short, circumstances which hate since occurred, might have altered the be of the Bishop of Limerick ; and were he again to be examined, he would give evidence the very reverse of that which, with perfect sincerity and good judg 'meat, he gave before the Irish Committee. In order to neutralise whatever importance might be supposed to attach to an objection of that nature, be made an application to the Bishop of Limerick, inquiring whether any circumstances had occurred since the year 1826, which would induce him to qualify in any man ner the evidence 'then given by him. To this the most satisfactory reply had been given. He stated, that he bad bad an opportunity of reading his evidence over again, and he declared, that were he to be a second time exam ined upon the same subject, he should not alter or qualify a single expression. The same causes continued to produce the same effects—the miseries of that country remained unabated, nor had any thing occurred during the last two years at all calculated to diminish them. Those were the views of a Prelate of the Established Church—those were the emphatic terms which he used. The Irish peasant is represented as lying the entire day on a litter of straw ; rising in the evening to eat a few potatoes • and then lying down to spend the night as be had passed the day. These latter opinions and statements, the House would observe, were in perfect accordance with the sentiments of the Bishop of Limerick ; they were the opinions of Dr. Doyle, the Roman Catholic Bishop of Kildare and Leighlin. The life which he described, before the Committee as being the life led by the Irish peasantry, was one which all men must agree with Dr. Doyle. bad better be terminated in any manner rather 'than continued under circumstances so frightful. He added, that their best friends would rather pray to GOD that they be relieved from such a condition, than con tinued in existence with every concomitant that could make existence a burden. Thus, then, the House had before them the evidence of Prelates of the two Churches, both tending to the same direction. It was not neces sarily consequent upon his motion thata remedy should be instantly suggested ; the effect of his Resolution, if adopted. would be to leave it is the discretion of any Member hereafter to follow op that preliminary step in any manner that future circumstances might seem to require. He could not but express extreme regret that the subject had excited so little interest in the House, on a matter of the very highest importance, not only to Ireland, but to England also. It was, however, some consolation to him, in the total absence of any support in that House, to know that high authorities out of 'doors—authorities having great influence upon public 'Pinion —took rather a different , view of the question Which it was his earnest desire to bring under the con sideratien of Parliament. When be spoke of high autho rities out of doors. be did not for a moment mean to compare them with the wisdom of that House, but they, nevertheless. had great influence upon the opinion of the community at )arge. And it was remarkable, that amongst the writers of whom he spoke, there existed not only the most extraordinary coincidence of opinion, as respected the question of emigration, but the most decided opposition of sentiment on almost every other question connected with Legislature and Goverment. ILt the hope that he should thereby induce Hon. Mena - a to look more minutely into the question than they ;eight otherwise be disposed to do, he would read. some passages, taking not;ce et the probable effects upon the people of England, of the influx of Irish paupers to. this country. Before doing that, however, he would remind Hon. Members of a Report made to that House, recom mending that no specific relief should be given to Irish paupers coming to this country. This he conceived to have been conclusive as to the opinion of those by whom the Report was made. To that 11E1)014 and to the (loci*. meats which be had- read, and which he should mad before he sat down, he entreated, in an especial degree, the attention at least of the Irish. Members. Further to strengthen his views of this question, he should read one or two of the passages which he betore had glanced at. The Hon. Gentleman proceeded to read extracts from the Quarterly And Edinhargh Reviews, the Westminster Reviete,aod other publications,ia coder to prove the extent of suffering which prevailed in that unhappy country, its consequence of an excessive, half - starved , hall-clothed peasantrY-E vela Biadoeowrallfegieslne,although it abused hint, singularly enough advocated the principle of emi gration. ,HO next celled the attention of che. H o e s e t o re. terns that had been made ef the number of families who had received relidfroastheMendicitySociety,frorn which it appeared, that in the Tear 1825, the number was 1,990 ; in 1826, 2,894 ; in 11127, 4,780. These returns, be contended, showed in a maser the most conclusive, that emigration of the Irish to this country was pro gressively increasing. sip that state of things, he felt it to be his duty to bring the subject under the considera tion of Parliament. and ID Wrest fore it the serious at• tendon el his Majesty's Geveromottts He was happy to see his Right Hoe. Mead .the Suntory jot she Home lepartmeot in his plat" and Welt an 4 pleasure is I .sting diets that Right Hon. Gentleman had before diepolition to sire toll* , atemore of mi. 'I • ,_ I • •. . ration a favourable consideration. He then proceeded td notice the mission of Colonel Cockburne to Nova Scotia, visheanso b ai j ecerei t o t r w a hieb tion w w as erti* rac e r y t t a o in sp h c ola cai laot in d Ko isenettpostordivihin she . Government might kewPllo,oll ground to isee upoi. nndsbat statements might boeuthentionted byolte anted. ,obserionism of an accreditestageos iskshe 00.01 MOO: H. pistil to the House, whether* weeld netioehighly desirable that some plan should be adopted, having fete , its object to elevate a nee to happiness and content, who were at present in the extreme of wretchedness. He was perfectly aware that, many who might egret: with him io principle might, nevertheless, differ from him as to the extent to which it, might be desirable ti carry his views ; but he felt bound strongly to contend that nothing really effectual could be accomplished situ. less it were upon a considerable scale. The most nature reflection had convinced him, that unless a part of the population were removed, or unless a large additional capital were applied to stimulate trade in Ireland, it would be in vain to hope for any relief from the pressure of population. He then proceeded to tom bat the views which were stated. in a petition re cently presented to the House, and adverted to the hostility of the Catholic Association to any measure of emigration. The fact was, and it could not be dis guised, that so long as the present state of things conti need' in Ireland, they could not expect any smeller*. lion in the affairs of that country ; for while a col lision of sentiment and opinion existed there, even the attempts that might be made towaida improvement were certain to be repressed by one party or other, ,which might fancy its , own advantage to be connected with the continuance of the existing : state of things. Could there be any foundation tor the, argument that absentee Irish proprietors ought to be 'obstructed in the receipt of their rents, if they preferred ea :pending their incomes in England to expending them ' In the country from which they Were derived ?. That principle, if acted on, would be equivalent to the establishment fan Agrarian Lai in Ireland, and might be expected to produce an effect similar to the intro duction of the Poor Laws into that country in its pre sent condition. If the latter project were now adopted Red carried into operation on the English' system, there was no doubt the whole rental of Ireland would be thereby absorbed. He spoke now of the immediate in. troduction of the Poor Laws into Ireland as at present circumstanced, and without due time being afforded fee undertaking and carrying into effect the necessary huprovements. If this be the case, and the system of the Poor Laws cannot now be adopted, they wanted a remedy to be substituted for them more adequate to the removal of the evils complained of, and better cal-, ciliated for the existing state and condition of the', Country. What was that remedy? What but to reduce the supply of labour as compared with the demand? . On this, and this alone, the future well-being and pros.' perity of the people must depend. When he beard of reductions in our establishments, of reductions in the stripy and navy, with a view to relieve the pressure at present experienced by the labouring classes, he found it impossible to disguise from himself the fact, that so far from this system being attended with beneficial consequencei, it must, in the present condition of. the. country, inevitably produce effects of a contrary des scription. Such reductions would only tend to pro duce an overflow of labour in a market already over stocked. Any remission of taxes at the present moment must be attended with injurious effects upon the lower classes. He did not mean to say that, under a sound system of things, they should keep up larger establishments than they wanted; be spoke now only with reference to existing circomstancee. It was accessary that the causes of the present state of things should be carefully looked into, and there was little doubt that an accurate inquiry would wholly negative the apprehensions of those who were of opinion that, if relief be afforded to the population by coloninst'on in North America or elsewhere, the vaccuum thus created would be speedily filled. He admitted that if a popula tion were allowed toremain in a degraded and reckless state, it was not improbable that the removal of a por Lion of the people to other countries, by means of emi gration. would be followed by an increase in the bey of those who remained at home. But if the people were once elevated above such a standard, and con vinced of the propriety of adhering to the rule, that.* dividuals of the lower classes should not marry and have families without possessing probable means for the r support, the case would become widely different. In opposition to the assertion, that it was easier to give support and employment to the working classes at home rthan abroad, and at one-fourth the expense that would be necessary to enable them to emigrate, he was prepared' to maintain that the contrary we:the fact. He would un dertake to prove that a family could be sent from Ireland to Canada, and, to use that expression, planted there, and placed in a situation to enablethem to 'work out their .own independence, for a sum of money not twice the amount of that which would be necessary to plant them in Ireland. How came it, if it were true that such ample remuneration for agricultural investment existed in Ireland, that individuals were not found willing to employ their capital there in that way? If there was that degree of inducement and facility for the invest. meat of capital in Ireland. in agricultural speculations, it would be so employed. If it were attempted to.bring waste land into cultivation, he thought the experiment would fail, and, so far from producing beneficial ef fects, would be attended with results of an opposite de ecription. It would decrease the remuneration on ac- Wont of agricultural investments generally, and pro .duce prejudicial effects upon alt classes of the commst airy. It it was true that there was a great quantity of len&in Ireland which was reclaimable, and of superior quality to some of the land in cultivation in this country—and if it were possible to bring this land into cultivation. and supersede the difficulties arising out of the legal claims existing upon it—still the consequence Must be to affect, more or less, the proprietors of all land of interior quality, and generally to depreciate the value of all descriptions of agricultural produce. He begged to ask, with respect to this country, what was the nature of the principal difficulties that it had re cently experienced? A paper had been laid upon the table of the House, from which it appeared that there was an increase of nine per cent. in the poen rates all over England during the course of the last yeas. It was evident that this per tentage came out of the rent of land ; for when a farmer took a farm, he calculated' all his outgoings, and paid a less amount of rent in proportion to the increased amount of poop's rates, and other charges subsisting upon the land. It was one of the objects of she Emigration Committee to point out the distinction that subsisted between a regulated system of emigration, for which .provision had been previously made, and one of a blind and casual aitoa charact er. advanceintain t h p e rso n se m on ey li e i their main t ainedi w o i r t t o ll a e e ni t otv to awl country. a w oshfoi infin i tel y m i fi l a nut there E ri r t ry 4b astere cbsenaPte a pr' number of assisted no demand for their labour, and who could not be •maintained here at an expense of less than U. per, haps he might say 51. a head—suppostn_ for exampl, that there wne3oo,ooo sfthese„ it would cilia 000.nnoL sterling of annual revenue to support them I Now mit , of this sum would be sufficient to relieve el from the Witten, and place them in a state of comp s . ,restive comlort and prosperity. This might becalm ed tea Or the ground that the encouragement of etnigratina amounted to a tax upon the State. It was futile t o make use of an argument of this kind. If the nation a l livens* wee 4eteirimseediw the amount above n ew was It not better to apply the money to rem ove a p er; tion of the unemployed population, and ultim ate !, relieve the country and the revenue? Asi er ' idea seemed• to possess the minds of some pe rson , who, seefog the condkion of the countty as it reme the general depression of the laboUring ela nee ;l l Z gined it was therefore necessary to remove th e sea , jority of persons belonging to them. Now this emu hu , no means the case. If there were one hundred ; Q. viduals on a bench where there was only comfo rter ble room for eighty, take away twenty of these, and d se remaining eighty would be in a state of ease and cots; fort without its becoming necessary to remove the wholes In like manner, if a plantation were toe full and crowd e d to admit of the trees thriving, we took away a portion of them, and their removal bene6tted the rema i nder , and enabled them to flourish an 4 attain a h ea l thful condition. He would apply the same pri nc i p l e to populition —if a certain portion of the unempl oyed labourers were removed trom the market, th e pe k e of labour would be improved, and the condo 3l of those who remained ameliorated. He (Mr. Wil. mot Horton) had never argued that emigration, except it . were accompanied with temedial measures of ,another description, would be attended with any considerable advantages. He found there was m a . a gr owing opinjoo . in Ireland, that the evils of t h at i country did, in a great degree, consist n the redon dancy•of the population, and it was matter of satid sr , tion to have to perceive that there now existed g wi s h to prevent . the growth of that evil. i t had bees argued, in relation to the subject of emigration, that the effect of sending our population to the Colonies would be to induce the Colonies to throe of their allegiance, for the purpose of avoiding pay ment of the advances made to the settlers by Government. Now, the view he entertained in relation to this print, he should shortly state to the House, Was it not a no. unions fact that we paid every year a large tarn of money on account of the military and other expenses of our Colonies? He sever proposed to act otherwise with respect to repay menu, on account dutch advances, than to place the amount in the hands of the Colonists themselves, and render it available towards diminish. ing the etpenses which we bad now to undergo on their behalf. It would be of inestimable advantage to the progress in-wealth and prosperity, and to the velem, tion to ourselves of our North American Colonies, td in. trodnce into them an augmented population, the effect of which must be to tender them to this country an ao keesiou of strength and a source of prosperity, instead of an incumbrance and a cause of butthensome metes tore . H e must call upon (iovernmei t to go theist it least, to take into its early and attentive coosidetatios the expediency of forming in this country a son of Co. lonial Board, which :Might afford means and opporno nity to individuals wishing to invest property itt the Ca loaies,of knowing all the circumstances connected with the Canadian waste lands, and of obtaining information of: various kinds very necessary for them to hat not now accessible. This plan might be :4: without involving the Government in any as, the general question of emigration, and thaeght that- many and unmixed advantages would be attained by means - of it... These were his general views on a subject which bad engaged much of his time and attention, and which be considered of great importance to the country. He *as ready to agree in what was, no doubt, the opinion of many Hors Meer bets, that many of the details connected with the ques- tion were much more suited for being considered in the closet than in the House of Commons, particularly as involving abstract principles cf a somewhat difficult nature. But, without entering into a discussion dutch principles, he trusted he had said sufficient to shoe that the subject was one well worth the attention efts Government and the House. He hoped Government, 'in the interval that would be afforded by the apple& ing recesss and previous to the next Session of Podia• ment, would examine into the question, for the put. pose of seeing whether anything of a practical nature could be recommended for the adoption of the Howe. He should only add, that horn the first hour in which be had turned his attention to this subject, now above five years ago, down to the present time, every succeed ing month had tended to convince him of the sound ness of the arguments adduced in favour of emigration, and he yet trusted, by convincing the minds of others in an equal degree with his own of its great impottatrei that he should be one day able to prevail upon them to devote their serious attention to the subject. The Right Hon. Member then mooed the following Resolution: “ That, early in the next Sadao of Parliament, the Nonni/laid take into consideration the expediency of enacting such wriumot whether of emigration or otherwise, which should appear best Co 4 collated to relieve paupethas in Ireland s to prevent the evil rem arising therefrom to England; and thereby to beta the contlidso of the labouring classes of ash country." The motion having been put and seconded, Mr. GRATTAN observed; that as the Right Hon. Gentleman had, in the course of his speech, made fre quent allusions to his country, be felt called upon to make a few observations oion the motion. The Right Hon. Gentleman was ensious that the Irish, landlord should contribute towards the support and improve ment of the poor ; he fully concurred in this opinion. Let the landlord but commence an improvement- - ke the tenant but follow his example, and the system of emigration now proposed by the Right Honourable Gentleman would be found unnecessary. The ques tion of emigration had been so often discussed io that House, that he did not feel warranted to (stet into details upon it. There was hardly a Gentleman is Ireland who did not yearly lose a number of persons oif his land in this way. This was all well enough ; but the Right Hon. Gentleman was anxious to introduce as ,organized system of emigration, the very thing which he was anxious to avoid. Much might be effected by tl)e Irish landlords in ameliorating and improving the condition of the people, but he much feared that the plan of the Right Hon. Gentleman could sot be re' alised. The Hon. Member, after some additional observations, concluded by opposing the motion. Mr. S. RICE was anxious to give his most cordial support to the motion of his Right Hon. Friend, who deserved the thanks of the country for having so ably , wrought the question under the consideration rf the House. His Right Hon. Friend was not, as a Member 'of that House, bound to introduce any practical measure of relict ; all that could be expected of him was, that be should suggest such a course as might with advantage be pursued by Ministers. Much had been said of the mportation of Irish persons into this country ; bet he felt satisfaction in stating, that the Magistrates and the Country Gentlemen of England bad borne testimony o the goad character and more habits of the prover _lasses of Irish, who sought to relieve their distresses ry seek' whi t ion peo whi lish pot pat Pu t in t thr far •tai del tbg sPI tin • an thi to ah Ira