Star. — London, England, 1805-04-11 00:00:00

*at vote. T bow to the decition of this branch of fie Legiflature; yet I may happen to feel not all the ronfidence which Tome Gentlemen do in the fobriety. fbundnefs, and equity of it. However, Sir, I wil lingly acqiiielce in the decilion of the Houle, and I repeat, I than not queftion its vote. But, Sir, it is not a little too hard that, in a mere motion toground a proceeding on that vote, every pnflible aggravation fie, old be employed, every thing that can be is draan from all imaginable fources. Many things not brought before you when you pallid that vote, now infilled on, and fome errancous and irrelevant matters let forth, only in order to miflead opinion, and extort a judgment not compatible with the juf Lice or the equity of Parliament. The Hon. Gentle. man has referred to other modes ..f decifion, and willies the Houle to bear in mind, that he has other trials pending. I know nothing of the grounds of the Hon. Gentleman'. expeaations as to fuccefs in trials of onqualified rigour, but all who voted the other night under flood, I believe, that the Houle had lore the c xi: emity af its duty. Now, the Hon. Gen. tlemari, however, willies to load the Noble Lnrdwith irdiead of applauding his fubmiflion to the vote of Parliament. Inflead of regarding his eager acquielcence in that vote as any mark of hu miliation. or of a proper deference to our opinions, the Hon. Gentleman tells you, that it was all an illu fion, all deceit, and even mifcondna in Lord Mel ville. But, Sir, %hat is the guilt or mileondua of Lord Melville ? All that your vote rays, all that we have voted is, that Lord Melville has violated an All of PA! 'lament ; it does by no means, or in no fenle, impute to him corrupt views. The Hon. Gentleman indeed has told us, that he purpofes bringing for ward hereatler f.me queflion as to whether the views of the Noble Lord were corrupt or not ? hut we mufl wait and fufpend our judgment until the Hon. Gen. tleman bring forward his propnfitions to Inch effea. —And the Lion. Gentleman has informed us betides, that lie means to put in a comic of inveftigation the quellion of participation, to know whether Lord Melville has derived profit from the employment, by the Paymafter, of the public money. Is perfecution to have no end ? Is Lord Melville, and are the over. fights of Lord Melville to be uticeafing objeas of de bate and dire:lllEon ? The Hon. Gentleman cannot tepee! to fucceed ultimately with the public. The public will coolly confider thefe matter!, and, be coming wife itfelf, even teach wifdom to the Honour able Gentleman. " We are defired, Sir, to vote the refolation the Hon. Gentleman has moved you this night. For one, I cannot concur in any fuch vote. Satisfadion has been given. Does it not fatisfy reafonable minds, that Lord Melville has difmiffed himfelf, has refired his fituation at the Admiralty Board ?— (hear ! kar ! from the IllstVer and his Friends) Is it contidercd what a humiliation to the Noble Lord to have been obliged, by a vote of this Houfe, to refign his employment as an active Minifter of the Crown? Let the Houk confider, whether loch an end to fuch a political life be not puni(hment fufficient ? What ever may have been the errors of Lord Melville, he was not Madill a bitter political opponent. He doomed no man endowed with talent to political ob livion. He had been moft impartial in the relation of military, naval, and other charaders. Some of the molt dccided of his political opponents were accord ingly employed by him. And our hiftory furnithes no example of a requital loch as that which the Houle is now called upon to mak: for that dillingnifh ed impartiality. And what (hall be thought, when the accufers PI Lord Melville, when thofe who would now condemn him to cullers infamy, are to be found among the very men whole neareß friends were de fended in this Houfe not many years ago by the noble Loll Every body remembers, Sir, that in the year 1795, one of the molt Rrenuous contefts we had for a lorg time witnefred in this Houfe, was on occafion of a debate which arofe from a motion concerning the conduit on a certain foreign Ration, of two noble perfons, (the Hon. Member alluded to Lords Grey and St. Vincent) when Lord Melville defended them with ur:quivocal refped, fincerity, and zeal.— When Lord Melville is ceafing to be any longer a Minifler, when his political exittence may be laid to be no more, after filch fervices rendered to thole Noble Lords, where lie is only an individual, a pri vate man. lie is to be hunted down by the friends of Lord Sr. Vincent —(A ery of hear, bear! mixed with lauglii , r, front the Cpkfition,) and by the kindred of Lod Grey. The oblivion of gratitude is rather a Spar tan sirtue. In thole times, when it was the con demnation of a Spartan patriot, or Page, to have me rited the gra•itode of his country, by his felf-devo. (ion and fact ifices,' important fervices rendered the commonwealth, only doomed a man to banifbment, and to the lag degree of ignominy and difgrace.— The giatioide of the Hon. Gentleman is wholly Spartan, and their j.iflice is as their gratitude. AL auc,,Ty Con preferve us from fuch )'uflice, and fo..n the operation of a fpirit fo inimical to policy, realms, and public virtue." Mr. GREY then role, and proceeded in fuhflance as follows :—The Right Hon. Gentleman accufes me for the warmth I have difplayed refpefting this bufi nef:, and in anfwer to this aceufation it is only need*. fary to fay, that I am quite unconfcious of any fuch hitternefs, and it would, I think, be rather difficult for the Right Hon. Gentleman to (hew in what way it has been evinced. He choofes to congratulate me -ind my lion. Friend near me (Mr. Whitbread) on our more than Spartan virtne in voting againft the Noble Lord, who, as he alledges, was the champion of thole who are dear to us by the ties of blood, or the emanations of friend(hip. He tells us that the battle which the Noble Loid fought for thofe relations was ditinterelled, and he admires the return we have made for tilde magnanimous exertions. This, Sir, is a firange kind of language, but it will be proper for me to Lall the attention of the Houle to the circumftances to which the Right Honourable Gentleman has al luded. It is fufficiently in the recollection of the Hot& that tkefe Noble Lords, being in the fervice of Government, received only bare jultice from the Mi nalas of the day. It will be recolleded that among the low inflances of military glory which dißinguifhed the Lite war, the two Noble Lords triumphing over diaic tiiiics of a very formidable nature, had eminently diitinguittred themfelves. On their return to this country lions the Welt Indies, fome ditratisfaltion arofe, and an inquiry was propofed by fome Mem bi f this Hoate. What was the conduit of there • occafion Did they, Sir, fly from juniee ? Did they with totincle inquiry, or did they discover any. an toe. .0 conceal their condor% behind any mean or difhonourable fubtertege? On the con trary, did they not court inquiry ? Did they not call for the fallen invelligation of any part of their con duet, and appeal to the fair decision of the Houfe ? The Right Honourable Gentleman has fpoken as if there Noble perfons received favours from the Noble Lord who appeared in their defence, but I utterly diklaim the exillence of any loch favours The No ble Lord defended them becaufe they had ferved with credit and honour thole by whom they were em• played. This fort of justice was due not merely to their particular met its, but it was due to the coun try whole intereits they had promoted. Will the Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Pitt) oppofite, who on the occalion when the motion for an in quiry was brought forward, moved the Amend ment, fay, that he did not fetioufly believe that the charge was rinfoulded—will he fay that he was not convinced that their cundua, fo far from bring liable to cenfure, was entitled to the highest approbation and gratitude ? Am I thew to be told that the Noble Lord who appeared in defence of the Noble Lords was conferring a favour on them, or any of thok by whom they were conneaed ? Am I to hold myfelf under obligations to the Noble Lord for a defence of thole gallant officers, whom he him fell had employed, and who had fignalized them felves in the public fervice. The Right Honourable Gentleman, however, takes fome merit to the Noble Lord for employing thofe who were known not to be in all cafes favourable to the adminiftration of that period. Without dwelling en this point, or afcer taining how far the Noble Lords at that time differ ed from Minillers, it is fufficient for me to fay, that to employ naval and military men of all different parties, is no proof of the moderation of Minifiers.— They are compelled, whether they will or not, to employ the fer vices of thole who are diflinguilhecl by their talents or their experience, and the Miniller who would ad otherwife would Coon find that be could not long perfevere in arrangements utterly re pugnant, both to the feelings of this Houk and the Country. It is hardly poflible to conceive Miniflere guilty of a greater crime than refufing the let vices of perfons of known talents, and to whole employment the only exilling objeCtion was fume differences of political opinion. But, Sir, the Right Honourable Gentleman has reprefented the defence of thole No ble Perfons a work of great difficulty. It is of con fequenee to fee, then, how the cafe really (lands.— Why, Sir, as nearly as I can recoiled, though I do not remember what was the majority, only fixteen Members, that is the odd numbers on the divilion of Monday, could be found to fupport that charge now reprefented as In formidable. The cafe was one of the plain:ft and leafl intricate that can be foppoled, and, therefore, the Nobl.: Lord's defence was, in point of difficulty, trifling, and in point of juflice, the Noble Lords had a right to expel it from thofe who em ployed them. I have been obliged to fay fo much' on this topic ; for, after what fell from the Right Honourable Gentleman, it was quite impotlible for me to have remained Talent. Indeed, the Right Honourable Gentleman's alltifion to this bufinefs was' equally ill judged and imprlitic. It was calculated to excite unpleafara feelings without at all advancing that caufe which he afFeaed to fitt.port. The Right Honourable Gentl , itran has alluded to the warmth with which the Noble Lord has been attacked ; but, really, 1 am at a Ids to difcover where the leaf} es idence of it has been exhibited. I have felt no perfonal warmth, or vindictive fpirit on the fubjea, and I am Cure no part of the conduit of my Honourable Friend has betrayed any appearance of a rancorous (pink. I have fupported my Ho nourable Friend, from a fenfe of duty, and I only regret, that I have been prevented from taking that (hare in the difcuffion which I could have walled. The Right Hun. Gentleman talks of rancour, of which no trace has appeared ; but though there has been no rancour, it was impuflible not to feel thong indignation when inflances of Rrong delinquency were difcovered. My Honourable Friend urged thefe delinquencies, with that force, which was peculiar to himfclf; but he never reforted to asperity of obferva tion. He wifhed only the ends of jullice to be ful filled; but when this object was accomplifhed, I am Cure that my Honourable Friend will never think for a moment of vit.dietive measures of punithment. It is with a view to have thefe ends of jultice fatisfied that the motion of my Honourable Friend has this evening been brought forward ; but he has declared that it a fatisfadory affurance is given that :.ord Melville has doled his political life, he has no with to prefs the motion at the prefent moment. This furely is no evidence of rancour of which the Rt. Hon Gen tleman speaks fu loudly in his fpeech. As to the ne ceffity of the motion I have no fort of hefitation in laying, that unlefsfornething is added to the Refolu tions of Monday night, they are left incomplete.— After laying that the Noble Lord has been guilty of a grab violation of an Ad of Parliament, and a high breach of his duty, we (hall not difcharge our duty to the country without following up fuch Refolutions by Come correfponding meafures. Without Tome others it was almoß a nullity to fuffer the Refulu lions of Monday to remain on the J turnals of the Houk. My Honourabie Friend has laid, and has laid with truth, that the muiticatian of the refigna tion of the Noble Lord by the Right Honourable Gentleman is far from fiti.fying either the Houfe or the country. The refignation of the Noble Lord at another period might have been very proper, but un der the prefent circumflances of the country his mere refignation of his fituation as Firft Lord of the Ad miralty is far from coming up to the fpirit of thofe Refolutions which %sill afford filch general fatisfac tion in every part of the Empire. Lord Melville's refignation after the Rdolutions of Monday was alto gether a matter of coot fe. Neither he nor any other man dared to have continued in power after the opi nion of this Houfe was fo folemnly and fo beneficially expreffed. The refignation has taken place ; but what fecurity have we ()Stained that he may not, in a very fltort time, be recalled to a confidential fituation under the Crown ? The Houfe will bear in mind that the Noble Lord (till continues a Privy Councillor, and one part of my Hen. Friend's mo tion is, that he be diftniffed, not only from his Majeity's Councils, but from his prefence for ever. It is sot at the fame time to be forgotten that the Noble Lord at this time was aaually in peffeffion of feveral lucra• five offices held during pleafure—and I do not think, that after the refolutions we have paired, that, 'the removal of there would be at all carrying pion • 1 tent to an improper length. After the declarations we have made, can we take any precautions too Rrong to infure the object which the majority of the Houle profeffed to have in view? The Right Ho nourable Gentleman reds a great deal on delicacy, as an argument for refilling my Honourable Friend's motion. I, Sir, am a friend to delicacy, where it can be exercifed continently with junice ; but I can never accede to a propofition for flereening convicted guilt from adequate puriifhment, by any temples which falfe delicacy would import. With a with then that our refolutions ['mold not he evaded, butcarried into the fulleft effeet, I fhould cct tautly be detirous of feeing my Honourable Friend's motion adopted, as at once the mot. continent with our honour, mon agreeable to the calls of jultice, molt confonant to the expeCtations of the country. I (hall fay only a few words on fome other topics which the Right Hononourable Gentleman has thought fit to intro duce into his fpeecli. The Right Hon. Gentleman has fpuken of the arbitrary and defpotic doetrine; brought forward by my Honourable and Learned Friend behind me (Mr. G. Ponfonby). But a• my Hon. and Learned Ft icild is himfell fo competent, it is not neceffa, y for me to trouble you with many oh fervations. But, Sir, I may jolt be permitted to afk, whether there be any thing extraordinary or incon tinent with jollier, any thing inconfotent with the charter of a Britith wyer, any thing at all ty rannical or defpotic, in having a perfon accufed of a more aggravated crime fectired previous to his trial? Could this be called a prejudging of the caule ? As well might w e he necofed of prejudging a crimi sal, becaufe we found it neceffary ro (bin him up in a prifon previous to the proofs of his guilt being fully or fairly confide' ed. Here, however, we were talk ing of a perfon ant accufed, but found guilty. I put it to the Houle, whether after the cite umltances of Trotter's concha& were known, it was at all decent to employ him in a fituation which he bad previoully employed to the molt improper put poles. If Trot ter was not dilmilied, he otreht timely to have been fufpended tiom hi• 'Zee till the inquit y in this Houle was clofed. The Right Honourable Gentleman had advanced nothing to thew that it was not his duty to have followed this courfe. His whole Ipeech, indeed, I was nothing but idle rant. and fury, containing no thing addi cffed to the reafon of the Honfe, nothing which affords the lean proof that the motion of my Honourable Friend thould not be adopted, as the natural confequence of the previous refolutions.— Conceiving then this to be 'the cafe, I (hall fupport the motion as called for by every principle of honour, every demand of jultice, and every feeling of regard tor our charuter. Mr. GEORGE PONSONBY followed, and fpoke to the following purport—After being fo pointedly and perfonally alluded to by the Right lion. Gentle man. I hope I (hall be favoured with the attention of the Houfe for a few moments. Since fir(( I had the honour of a feat in this Houle, I will not attempt to deny that even it has ever been my ardent with to Hand high in the etleem of all the Members of whom it is compofed. After the vote of Monday, howe ver, a vote fo honourab!e to the charmer of ;hi; af f.mhly, a vote which has exalted its character among all o:Ciers in the five who value independence and worth—l confers, that to hand well iu your opinion has bur oa: a matter of the tomall anxiety. The Rifiltt Honourable Geralentan has cliofen to fay, that it I had been a Lritifh Lawyer I never could potlibly have brought for ward thole tyrannical, delporic, and oppreffive d. , Cliints which he fu d pofes me to h a ve de livered. Of having uttered any foci language as could convey the idea of arbitrary principles nr praElices, I am utterly unconfcious. I was follow ed by a Right Honourable Gentleman who is rin queftionably one of the moll found and conflitutional Lawyers, and a Judge in one of the higheft Courts in the kingdom, and it is rather remarkable that he took not the lead notice of thefe fuppofed arbitrary doc ttines, though he did me the honour to allude to fe , vend parts of my fpeech. If Inch dol:rines had been contained in what I then adv ,need, it is next to im• pnflitde that they fhould have efeapt:d the obfervation of his penetrating and comprehenlive mind. If I did lay down arbitrary &Chines, they are the fame doc trines which many of the moil eminent lawyt:r: that this country ever Oise I.ave not t rupled to as ow. The Hon. Gentleman, howevt.r, tells me, that if I were a Britilh Lawyer, I could not prillibly avaw the principles be imputes to me. I am not afliamed at any time, Sir, or under any circumliances, of my country, and I hope I (hall never he guilty of an aftion which will give my country cattle to be alhamed of me. As, however, the Right lion. Gentleman reds In much on my being a Britifh lawyer, I beg leave, Sir, to inform him, that 1 have as much B, i d& blood flowing in my veins as the Right Ham. Gentleman can boall of in his. I cannot boall, Sir, of having arrived, at fo early a per int] of Life as the Right Hon. Gentleman, at the honours and rewards which the Right Hon. Gen leman now enjoys : What I have earned of honor': s and rewards have been the refult of long labours and painful exer tion ; but this I can Eddy allure the licafe, that never till now have 1 ever been accofed of being an arbitrary or unconliitutional lawyer. I I;ti,J, alluding to the cafe of Mr. Trotter, that circum (lances had been difclokd which (hewed that he ought not to have been empirled in the office of Paymaller of the Navy, and I am (till of the fame opiaion. But on what pi inciple is it that the Right Hon. Gentle man accuses this declaration as inconfirient with the principles of jullice ? What are Oldie principles they ate plainly thefe :—that Mr. Trotter bad by his ow n evidence proved his guilt ; and that the tellimony of his friend and patron, Lord Melville, inllead of we ik ening, flrengthened his opinion. I ark then, Sir, after loch evidence was given before the Commillion ers, if it would have ben at all extram clinary or un jolt to have fulpended Mr. Trotter till his innocence or guilt was fully alcertained ? I fay, in finch a fur. perdion there was no prejudice. Thete was, on the contrary, that firift regard to the proper application of the public money, with which the employment of a perfon even fufpealed of malverfations doer not aro pear to me to be very conflllent. I think if the Hon. Member had a6led in this way I am fully fenlible that neither the Houle nor the country would have blam ed him fur his arbitrary or defpotic proceedings. I entertain a fincere relPed or th_. Right Honourable Gentleman's talents. Indeed it is not conceivalde that without great talents he (horrid, at to early a pc. trod of life, have rifen to that elevation in (tate in which he is now Oneed. With all my refpeji r•. 'tic abilities, however, I muff infift that tthcn he r ;- flouts my obfervations with his notice, he %till little pains to Rate accurately what I fay, for I •••• tell, with all my cflocm for his tater ts, I Innnld 11- relith the idea of his making ipeeches for me ( Having Paid this with rcip:6t to the arbit:4t y dor. trines of which he accule. me, I Owl!, before I fit down, fay a few words on the :7 nerd ipreition hef,re the Houle. My Honottrab!e F lend teems to me to have framei his motion cn the molt corditterit prin. ciples. He very properly lays, that thou,4h t',c Ri,;hr Hon. Gentleman oppolite ( '1:. Pitt) has ir.trniated to us the refignation cf . tog I raati. , n as Firft Lord of the Admiralty, he has noe told trt: a hat is much mote important, what is much mote i;:ti in ;zcly c.mneaed with the Refiplmions at M n;ght, that Lord Melville has el ,, fed his poi:-.ical life ; that he is never more to have any (hare in the .‘Llnsi nititation of the affair:, of this g' eat empire. \V know what arc the conneeti , ns of the No!slc 1.. how far extended arc the Tefolll ces of his ;1111 None of us are ignorant how imitnately ao;ra. the confidence of the Mininers nt the Cron n. arai how anxious they would at aay time be to re': iv: his aavice and lupport. We It rye, inderendent refs mo tion firnilar to that of my Hon. Fiend, net tactility againfl his return to power, a thing totally incorifilt era with the Ittfolutions of alonday,lnd which wr uld sander them mere wake paper on the J .or rils. But even admitting that Lnrd Melville did nominally re tire, let it be kept in mind that lie flat C.Pillinnes a Privy Councillor, as my Honourable friend bi law me (Mr. Grey) has already very properly remarked While the conneation of the Noble Lard ssah the Adminittration of the country continues, Inch as it now is, I prolefs that I arm nor fatisfied that we have gained what our grand thuggle of Monday lu ju tly entitled us to espeal. Let me itippnfe, Sir, that this intimacy continues, and that the alinilter employs his influence to mifreprcfent and vilify the dectlions of this Houfe. Let me fuppofe that the prefs is hired into the fervice, and that the public are 'old in pub lication after pubacatiert by the friends and crea tures of Minitters, that Lntd Melville has been run dawn by a defperatc fiCtion in this Houe—that he has been condemned unheard—that he offered to call evidence to prove the falfity of the accufations againtt him, but was refufed—that in (hart he is a much perfecuted, and much injured man. Let me fuppofe that by thefe delnfions the thong fentimcnts of ho nourable indignation which now aelnate the public mind are a goad deal deadened, and that the Mini. tier, availing himfelf of thefe favourable changes. (hnuld during the reccfs if Parliament venture on the daring meafure of once more recommending Lot d M. to the fervice of his Sovereign, and that his Ma jetty, fatally yielding to this recommendation, fhould once more receive him into his Councils. Let me fuppofe this, which is not by any means an impolli ble cafe, and what then is to become of all our Refit lutions—of all our efforts to Item the growth of cora rupti ,n—of all our exertions to bring peculators, however elevated their rank, or extenfive their influ ence, to an ignominious uniiiiment. It is to guard equally againft this and any limilar cafe that I am in clined to limprt the motion of my Honourable Fr:end. The Riglit Hon. Gentleman lhongly re commends to us the propaiety t:f leniency in our pro ceedings. I am no enemy, air, to leniency when properly exerted, and I have ma with that the Noble Lord (hould be treated wall tranecenry feverity.— But, before I can be lenient, 1 mutt know that the carafe of public jritlice is fecure . .. 1 mutt be fatisfied that the Noble Lord (hall not again have it in Ns power to have any weiaht in our national councils. will' to have the public money placed lately beyond the reach of the corrupt and profligate. I am willing to (hew as much tendernefs as pnflible to the Noble Lord, though I confers I never had the honour to ex change one word with him in the tkholecourfe of my life ; but I (hall be a party in lenity to no man till I have provided agaiuft peculation ainong great public men. I am clear. Sir, for making every public delin- Tient refund what he has unjustly obtained out of the public purfe, and I (hall certainly iiippnrt my Ho nourable Friend in all his motions for carrying through this glorious work of reforeci. aVaile I thait fupport the motions tier caliing Lord Melville and Mr. Trotter to a stria accoun', I 'hall be equally a hien(' to any inveltigation of the controul exercital by the Treatur y over the inferior offices. It is the duty of the Treaftiry to fee that negligence and wale does net exia in the inierior departments. I do not impute corrupt praatices to the Right Ho. nouraale Genriemcn at the bead of the Treatury, for I do not like to impute corruption to any one without thong evidence ; bat I do tee from the report that the firperintendance of the Treafur y has in many inilances been criminally relaxed. The rank of the Commillioners is not to fcreer them from inquiry; and I hull the future proceed'ngs of the Houle will fully prove the truth of this opinion. Thoug h p I am a Reprefentative for another part of the king dom, I 111 ill feel no hefitation in laying that I confider my !fell as much a Reprefentative for Great Britain as fur Ireland, and un all occafions fliall endeavour Ca :la on this liberal principle. (il I.ud ear cj hoar! hear!) It the motion is pc:liar:a in, it certainly (hall have my cordial vote. Mr. CANNING explained, and Rated Lnrd vilie was as effeaually excluded from his Majefly's I Councils by what had alreaay taken place, as !a could be by any Refolution o f the Houle to that effea. Mr. ROBERT THORNVON jultified the Pena - . of England. rate allufion to the conduat of tlaa Corporation was his chief motive for addrefring rf e Houle. He faid that the Tenth Report gave al; accurate account of part of the examination rot a principal r ffis:er and very relpeatable ter vant of that body, Mr. Abraham Newland. The anlavers let down for Mr. Newland, in One Report, were not perfe&ly corral. It nas !ince fanod that the Pay matter was on every occation i;,ulatly careful to fpecify the heads of rar vice under which he drew from the Bank in every draft. The office where Elide halifaCtions took pl ace were not rimier the particular management of Mr. Newlana, but under that of another office! ; and lie (Mr. Thornton) had en• quired within this dry or two, and found that me .toy other draft but itch a> fpecifia.l the heads of fcr• vice, sere ever arefented for payment at the Bank. No payments were made but to the Clerks of the taiatualling and other Offices, arithorifed by name by the Treafurers of the Navy, fence 1;84, to draw. Hides. Trotter and Wilton, and the four other' berg of this Hi ale. noble patens on that