Star. — London, England, 1818-05-21 00:00:00

directe the J-Is ment such si • be fall the inl with a groom Mr. cessar, able 13 duce a law in •r jetted Mr. fore th t the Le the lai that Si regard house what state t] No op House Mr. throw sion. but it Lor inforn it invc Scotia Lot that ti extent I Newp case r the pi Court brous tion, covsic Bible decid had I Mt 1 1 1 1 quirt' • had 1 The upon libcr regal quirt the ( part dare M R'gl Ilou the: wan Sessi • how the 1 rule old Scot M it qu shou folic laws prop ante calle thou, subje Si whit been coulc We I The Lc the( perfe such tion. previ Su mitt( form t in for throt Si of E fern cool appl Si the 1 tion 1100 I. Savo in ar.y fore Mir pre! tive pos ear. feel Cot nio nic the der ' 1111 ., 1 `: ral 1 sue COT the • \ • ... - .` \ b " . directed to cause to s. fre, made out, and presented to Iltluse s wleks . after the commence- o a,r, „i, .t'6 ' 3!"- of Parliament, a list of i statutes as the t:ouri. in Scotland considered to , :allen into desuetude, Ana no longer binding on inhabitants of that part of the Empire, together a state. ent of the authorities on which they !tided such opinions. .r. BRAGGE BATHURST said it was not ne cessary to have such a return as the Right Honour - Baronet had moved for, if he wished to intro any Bill to alter what was considered to be the , in Scotland, with respect to desuetude. He ob (octed also to the language of the motion. Mr. AIIERCROMBY said, that the question be -e the House was, whether any other body than Lezislative had the power to repeal the law of lan !? The Scotch Judges had been of opinion, Statutes that had never been repealed might be :garded as annulled. It was expedient that the louse should know what laws were in that state and weue not. The Scotch Judges were bound to the principle on which they had proceeded.— , opinion had been given on the subject by the House of Lords. . Mr. %V. DUNDAS thought that the motion would throw a great deal of trouble upon the Court of Ses- Part of the information requited was desirable, . it might be obtai.ted in a less objectionable way. Lord A. HAMILTON supported the motion. The information required was of the utmost importance ; it involved the elective franchise of the first cities of Scotland—of Aberdeen and.of Edinburgh itself. Lord BINNING opposed the motion on the ground the information required was unnecessary to the .tent demanded by the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir J. Newport.) A declaratory or enacting law, as the might require, would be sufficient to answer all purposes of the motion. In place of that, the Court of Session was to be called upon for a cum brous and useless return. The second part of the mo namely, alder to have gone into desuetude, it was impoo. 'le to comply with; 'because the Court could not ide until cases came before them, whether a law d become desuete or not. Mr. J. P. GRANT had no objection to have in '-y made, that it might be ascertained what laws become desuete, and what ought to be repealed. doctrine of desuetude in Scotland was founded Ton the law of Rome, in the times of her greatest Liberty. He would support the motion, so far as it reerded matter of fact, that was, so far as it re wed a return of those laws actually declared by Court of Session to be desziete. He objected to that „girt of the motion which required the Court to de clare what they consider to be desuete. Mr. BOSWELL expressed his gratitude to the fight Honourable Baronet for bringing befcre the louse the monstrous fact, that the promulgation of • Statutes of Scotland was a snare rather than a darning. lf, as it was contended, the Lords of Session could not state what laws were in desuetude, how were his Majesty's subjects, who were to obey laws, to form a judgment ?—(hear, hear.) The rule of law had arisen from the negligent framing of .4 Statutes, and the inattention of the Legislature of :otland ; but it was time it should be put an end to. Mr. WYNN approved of the motion. He thought quite as much a matter of course that the House should, in some way or other, inquire into the laws lien into desuetude, as into the expired and expiring ws in this country. Lord CASTLEREAGH said, that it would be im proper to call the Judges to make a report in a Mi nisterial capacity, which they would afterwards be called on to reconsider in their judicial case. He thought a better proposition would be to refer the übject to a Committee or a Commission. Sir S. ROMILLY said, to that part of the motion which required an account of the laws which had been decided to have fallen into disuetude, there 'ould be no such objection as that stated by the No - Lord (Castlereagh). It was a mere question of fact. is rest of the motion he agreed should be omitted. Lord CASTLEREAGH stated that the Judges of t Court of Session were too much occupied in the performance of their judicial functions to prepare such a return as that which was required by the mo tion. The Noble Lord concluded with moving the previous question. Sir S. ROMILLY observed, that whether a Com- aittee or a Commission were appointed, still the in formation required could only be had from the -sages ; and, therefore, it was better to apply for that ~ , r ination to the Judges at once than to seek for it ough a circuitous route. Sir J. NEWPORT remarked, that as the Judges England were frequently applied to for legal in .rmation to guide the judgment of Parliament, he Id not concei?e the ground upon which a similar ,:plication to the Judges of Scotland should be 6.:,:med so very troublesome. Sir J. NEWPORT said, he should decline to press house to a division, in the hope that as the atten m of the House was drawn to a practice which no one attempted to defend, Ministers would them lves bring forward some remedy for such an evil. Lord CASTLEREAGH stated, that he was not possession of the information necessary to form ty opinion as to the merits of the case; and, there (ore, that he could not pledge himself dr his Majesty's linisters to take any proceeding upon the subject. Messrs. ABERCROMBIE and J. P. GRANT ex messed a hope that this discussion would be produc ive of great good upon this important question. Sir J. NEWPORT sai3, that if nothing were pro posed in this case, by his Majesty's Ministers, at an, early period of the next Session, he should himself feel it his duty to submit to the House a distinct mo lon upon the subject. The previous question was carrird. WEST INDIA SLAVES. Sir S. ROMILLY moved for a Copy of the Opi ion of the Attorney-General of the Island 'of Domi- Ica in March, 1817, with respect to the power of the Goverr.or of that Island to liberate slaves con demned by their masters to work in chains upon the )üblic works; together with a Copy of the case or ...itter upon which the opinion of the Attorney-Gene ral was founded. Mr. MARRYAT observed, that the liberation of such persons as the motion referred to was clearly contrary to law, for why should any Governor have the power of depriving a proprietor of a contrvttl• , • ..; • •....i• ••• over his negroes ? He really thought it trifling with the attention of the House to bring such a question under its consideration. Mr. GOULBURN said, that according to the opinion alluded to, which was in conformity with law, the Governor had the power of pardoning Slaves condemned to work by the sentence of the Courts; but not those so condemned by their masters. Sir S. ROMILLY remarked, that, the Honourable Member who spoke last but one, rather rashly ha zarded an opinion which was not justified by the case. The motion was agreed to. PUNISHMENT OF SLAVES. Sir SAMUEL ROMILLY rose to move that a Select Committee be appointed to take into conside ration certain Papers laid before the House relative, to the treatment of Slaves in the Island of Nevis, and to report thereon to the House. He was surprised to understand that there was to be any opposition to the motion, after the statement he had made on a former evening, proving the cruelty exercised to- wards two male and two female Slaves. Here the Honourable and Learned Gentleman repeated the statement which we gave in detail at the time, rela tive to the severe flogging of two Negroes, for re ceiving two pair of stolen stockings, and the subse quent flogging of two women, their relatives, for shedding tears at their punishment. It was impor tant to inquire whether, when such cruelties occurred and the parties were brought to trial for it, justice was impartially administered. In this case of Mr. r Huggins, all the circumstances in mitigation of the defendant's conduct were completely disproved at the tri:tl, and yet the Jury acquitted him. The As sembly had thought proper to send home their ac count of the transaction, and to add, net only the speech of the Counsel for the prisoner, but their own comments, in notes. It. was not the character of Mr. Huggins that he impeached, but that of the Jury. It was proved on the trial, that the men who were flogged were so ill on the next day that it was necessary to send them to the Hospital ; and yet it was said, that they went the next night to a masque rade, though no such circumstance was adduced in evidence. But the Agent for the Island had also sent other papers on the subject to the Secretary of States Office ; and the Assembly had recorded in their minutes Huggins's speech in his own defence— a speech made precious to the trial. But the House would no . , be surprised at this, when they heard of whom the Assembly was composed. The Speaker was one of Huggins's bail, another member was Ed ward Huggins, his father, the next was his son, an other was his brother, another Mr. Clarke, his retain ed Counsel ; and, in short, all the rest were persons who were connected with him, and took a lively in terest in his fate—(hear, hear). It appeared on the whole of the transaction as if the Governor and Council of the Island had sacrificed themselves in order to protect Huggins; and he should ask, it were not even on their account necessary that some investigation should take place? He did not mean to state that lie punishment to which he alluded was at A. ex:r tordinary ; but, whether it was or not, still if i, were uanterited it called for redress, and, in order ti afford such redress, inquiry was necessary. The chew:lst ,nces of the punishment, too, were worthy of not ee. Poor unprotected female slaves were to be wili t tped with the greatest severity, and for what?—for iothing mote than their being pos sessed of those feelings of humanity, tenderness and compassion, which were an ornament to the highest class of their sex in any country—feelings which did honour to society—(hear, hear). It seemed also as if Mr. Huggins intended to practice a refinement on cruelty, by blending a sort of indifferent politeness with his severity—(hear, hear). When he had pu nished the young man, and was about to punish the female slaves, who shed tears at the sight of such severity, he (Huggins), turning to one of his atten dants, said, " Now bring out the Ladies ;"—(hear, hear)—and while they were extended on the ground, and receiving their punishment, he was heard fre- quently to say to them, " now cry !" as if taunting them with the possession of any feeling of humanity —(Wear, hear). He should not go into the subject , any further, but should move—" That a Select Committee be appointed to take into consideration the Papers laid before the House, relative to the treatment of Slaves in the Island of Nevis, and to report to the House thereupon." Mr. GOULBURN argued, that it would not be l proper to judge persons by a Comrhittee of that House, where no evidence could be rdduced of their conduct. The Papers were, in his opinion, entitled to no consideration beyond the facts adduced before the Jury on the trial, and it rev uired no further exa mination here. He repeated his former observations on the subject, and contended, that if there were any blame attached to the contents of the papers, it rest ed with those who sent them. It was extremely in expedient for the House to re-try a case without evi dence, in which evidence had been submitted before the proper Authorities in the country where it was tried. He should have no objection to the motion, provided the duty assigned to the Committee be to exclude them from the re-trial of the case which had already been tried before a competent tribunal. Mr. WILBERFORCE implored the House not to adopt the opinion that it had not the power to in quire into the administration of justice abroad as well as at home.—[Mr. GOULBURN denied that he had given such an opinion, and repeated what he had said.}—He was to understand his Hon. Friend had not laid down such a doctrine ; he must have misunderstood him. But if an inquiry were not to be gone into, for what purpose had the papers been produced? It was clearly proved that justice was not impartially administered in the West Indies— (hear, hear)—and if ever there were a case which called for the most serious investigation, it was that made out by these Papers. The Hon. Gentleman then argued, at some length, on the misrepresenta tions by which we were deluded as to the happiness and kind treatment of the Slaves, and that there was no place but the House of Commons where the mal administration of justice In the Colonies could be in vestigated. He thought it a little too much to believe • ; what had been stated, that M r . Huggi ns h a d b oug h t ; an estate of Mrs.llutton, and paid 16,5001. to gratify the Slaves, in their wish to become his property— .l ( Laughter )--and that she, out of humanity, in wish ing to transfer them to so good a master, had con sented to take 35001. less for it than she could have got from any body else. He concluded with de- I cluing, he felt it to be one of the most solemn duties the House could eeercise to attend to the welfare those poor creatures, and to see that the adminiswe tion of justice was not perverted with impunity. Mr. MAR RYATT did not think the case called foe the investigation of the /louse ; with respect to the observations of the Honourable Gentleman about the sale of the estate to Mr. Huggins, there was a good reason for the Lady letting him have it for 16,5001. :other than part with it to another person for 20,0001. and the reason was rather different from a principle of humanity towards the slaves, he paid the money down for it—(Laughter).—When he had sold slaves, he invariably patted with them to masters of their own choice, and sold them on that account for a tat deal less than he could have obtained for them he had not given way to their feelings. He there fore would wish Gentlemen were not quite so incre dulous as to the fact of planters making sacrifices on the score of humanity. The proceedings against Mr. Huggins had been ordered by that very Gover nor and House of Assembly that had been accused of a partiality in his favour, but in this instance he thought that partiality could not easily be detected. From examinations taken before the Magistrates pre vious to the trial, and from affidavits subsequently made, he contended the case of Mr. Huggins had been much exaggerated, as, though the number of lashes inflicted on the offending negroes for the bur glary and felony they had committed was certainly great, it appeared that many had suffered as much who had only received 30 lashes. They were known to hare been at a mask and dance on the next night, and on the following Monday both had gone to work without being desired to do so. For the punishment inflicted on the women, he must say, to him the story appeared very improbable. That they should have been flogged merely because they commisera ted the sufferings of others, was too outrageous for belief. But if the truth were this, that they had been exciting, others to acts of insubordination—if it were their object to overawe the Manager in the perform ance of what he considered to be his duty, then, he thought, some slight punishment might be necessary. He was not one of those who thought the mother country ought net to look vigilantly to the treatment of the slaves in the colonies, but he considered pub lic discussions on such subjects very injurious, and this, therefore, was the last course that ought to be resorted to, when an application to that department of the Government to which the superintendance of the. colonies was confided had failed. The language held on the emancipation of slaves by the African Institution, and by persons generally in this country, he was likewise of opinion might do much evil, as it went to break the charm that bound the slave to his master, and to excite in his mind an idea that any effort he might make to emancipate himself would be considered perfectly justifiable ; and in conse q fence, at no distant period, such scenes as had al ready been witnessed in come parts of the West In dies, might ensue. He proceeded at length to shew the effects likely to arise from treating this subject as it had been treated. Under all the circumstances of the case he could see no grounds for any interference on the part of the House on the present occasion., When a case of real abuse should be brought for ward, he would be ready to second a motion for taking such steps as the justice of the case might de mand. At present he was of opinion no inquiry, as to the verdict which had been called in question, seemed justified by the facts which had transpired. Mr. GORDON was surprised at hearing a sort of defence set up for Mr. Huggins; he did not think the African Institution deserved the reflection which had been thrown on them; and as an individual con nected with the West Indies, he was anxious not to be mixed up with the opinions expressed by the last speaker, on the inexpediency of a public inquiry into the matters connected with the treatment of slaves in the Colonies. He thought the dominion of the whites would be best maintained by kindness to the slaves. A stronger case than that now before the House, had, in his opinion, never been brought for. ward. He could hardly believe that he had rightly heard the last speaker, when he said die jury appeared to have been justified, under all the circumstances of the case of Mr. Huggins, in finding the verdict they had returned. He telt that an inquiry was properly demanded, and was wholly with the motion. Mr. BARHAM was of opinion that in so small a society there would be found a difficulty in carrying the laws, whatever they might be, into effect against the most powerful persons in it. He hoped from this case a conclusion would not be spread beyond what the premises would justify--that it would not be in ferred that because one abominable case had occurred in which judgment could not be obtained, that such was generally the state of the administration of jus tice in the West India islands. He could wish the small islands in the West Indies to be consolidated with larger islands. Such a measure he believed to be highly de,irable, both for the welfare of the Bri tish empire and for the interest of the small islands themselves. lle repeated it to be his hope that Gen-. tlemen would not draw too general a conclusion front a particular case, for he was satisfied that in the larger islands there existed a strong disposition to improve that system, which never could be made a good one, by giving all possible effect to the laws for the protection of slaves, and their situation generally was better than that of the peasantry of most coun tries. lie expressed his thanks to the Honourable and Learned Gentleman for bringing this motion for ward, which met with his entire approbation. Mr. W. COURTNEY considered the case one in which the House was called upon to interfere. To form a proper judgment on it, they ought to confine themselves to the trial. All the circumstances of pal liation brought forward by an Honourable Gentle man, were founded either on examination taken be fore, or affidavits made after it. The evidence be.: fore . the Jury had proved that H ugg i es had been guilty of those acts of cruelty which were now stated to be so preposterous as to outrage belief; and since diey had, notwithstanding, acquitted - him, it was fit that an inquiry into the real nature of the transaction should take place, in order to ascertain what was the state of the administration of justice in that World. Mr. WARRE had heard with astonishment that the slave in the West Indies was better off than the free peasant in most countries. All he could admit was, that the most favoured slave under the most le nient and most indulgent master, might be on some comparison with the most wretched peasant in the most despotic country. The conduct of Huggins towards the unfortunate women he had punished, was said to be such as to outrage belief. was it to be considered as so improbable, in s c where it had been proved in a trial f :r an act common cruelty, that the crime of the odi slave who had been so cruelly punished was, t had been sulky ; and when this was pressed, it out that slaves might be punished for kotin g He was decidedly in favour of the inquiry. Mr. W. SMITH wished subjects lik: the p re be openly debated, as he considered the Slave' to have been abolished by public discus,io n , fended the African Institution, and she insubordination now anticipated from th e st , slaves in the West Indies being brought h e f t , House, had not been apprehended in fo rme , l when the late Lord Melville (then Nfr. m it Mr. Pitt, and Mr. Fox, took part in the deba: such questions, and discussed them with t c , I the eloquence (one exception being ma.isi now displayed, and with ten thousand time, th, feet on the passions and feelings of me. Fur part, he could think of no employment mare • mate, more useful for that House, tha n to rests such subjects, to examine them, and t o g i ve op and publicity too, on their real character. He circumstances of this kind would not very fieql be entered into, because he hoped they wo u frequently occur ; but if they did occur often, t 1 it should be weekly, he trusted they would be inquired into, and dealt with so that dicw, cerned in them might be afraid or ashamed of so as to provoke new inquiries. Mr. BARHAM, in explanation, said he ha meant to compare the condition of the sla7e free peasant, but in this, that he was better lodged. Ile thought a free man much happier miserable cabin, with his brown bread, than slave could be, however well pri,vided Mr. WARItE received the explanation of nourable Friend with pleasure. Mr. A. I3ROWN was anxious that no exam view should be taken of this case ; that it and injustice were proved, the offending ind: should be punished; but that frcm curl inference should he drawn that snit was re, the state of the administration of justice in tilt India Islands, in which he stated the Slaves much better treated than they were forme.v Sir SAMUEL ItOMILLI, in reply, said h not limit the inquiry he had called tug in the! proposed from the opposite side of the Bout was much surprised to hear it said by one B able Member, that the verdict of the Jury see be justified. That Honourable Member mut in stating this his conduct was most inunsist he assumed the Jury were j ustified upon does they had not before them at the time trial. It had been said that the conduct of HI in punishing the women for commiserating t who were flogged, was so outrageous, grow s the tale excee all belief. Yet that done so had been proved on the trial, and it for exciting any insubordination, as his words " Now bring out the ladies who have been The Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Marrvau) h. if they had attempted to overcome the man. exciting insubordination, a slight punishing. , be necessary ; but it had been proved that attempt had been made ; and one of the won endeavoured to hide her tears. From the eve given, it appeared that she sat down on the covered her face with her apron, and ceeme. crying. This was her offence. Inquiry into t be considered to be absolutely necessary, and , tended at some length that no evil could rats be anticipated as the consequence of this or subjects being discussed in that House. The Motion was then agreed to. I.Aaornerts' WAGES BILL. Mr. J. P. GRANT, adverting to the drew of the Bill which he had introduced relativ payment of labourers wages having been thi in the House of Lords, and that considerabl prehension had prevailed as to the object of a difficulty had occurred to him in the Bill s had framed, from his being unable to prelim+ convenience of making Notes of the Bank of and Country Bankers legal tenders. This ol had, however, been removed by an Hon. F his, not in this /louse, who had taken the to frame a clause which obviated the objet. merely providing that payments made in Bank tt England Notes, or those of Country BankeTs. shoi./ be exempt from the penalties of the Act. lie moved for leave to bring inthis Bill. Mr. BABINGTON wished that the oremtlens ri the Bill were more extensive, and compreczaded hours rs of every kind. Aldrman WOOD concurred in this wish. Mr. J. P. GRANT said, the main object of the Ea was to make the exiting Act; effectual. He cer.vr• red in thinking that it wc.ulJ be Jetirable to extri the . operations of the bill, but considering the Liit p of the Session, it would be better to poi otie any extension of the law till another time, td.en could be more conveniently considered by introde.:ar, a separate Bill. Leave was then given to bring in the El. sr! was accordingly brought in, and read a firs: .:3.1 sc• cond time.--Ordered to be committed to.ntocrow. ALIEN SILL. On the question, th.Lt the Report of the Alien be postponed till to-morrow. Mr. J. P. GRANT said, that he intended t. h:•17 , moved an Amendment on the bringing tsrs Report ; and he had btined, that if the Report no: brought up this night, as he was to ,cay.` town to mien,' his profession:it ditties, 1:c roped tan: he would have an opportunity of mov - e,1 4 , Iti, amend incat himself, instead of being to_entrust to any of his Mr. LIISIIINGTOI able and Learned Gene opportunity of moving the Report w.cs the/ Mr. J. P. GRANT / a record should be kt Office of every order t of any Alien under thi that a sealed copy of time to time presented and by them referred t rnittee. Aftrr the decd already, he did not exi agreed to, but he thor Mr. LU SHIA; TO It bri eacept to a cer post, fc the City 'Majesty •o give 7.tople i. 71 add haPPI answer vay 1111 tißlll3t " good %ion. the Ito:tour seemed en ct , wa rds this sallo w or hilts s' 4 th,,t The clausi • st p a use Per ,„: brourhi J. P. d re pectir Pm( .• +(sod? -- i%c • LUSH I 11.. . „al e accord' that ;he Report • . ' state d Tie u Sc m at& Kfc+re tit ed to be col 'nit Other I) Undel, lbw( whour r. :hAtcs ta; srzs the of Fur hn • crou,i ors pilot OT It educe. Pe r C !.. - .A-17 At thz ' z ' 1.Ac1.. B has We this :I:etieltliaa' i igg i Ei c iejient rue ttih4l:: : ::2l : s I ...7-.7l..lStetelleeelf:att:tilr'aC;l4::::the:dttse:ti:lsttlidttho:ltr'l'' had r ive ndrid 4 ; l ckcc.e.cd As ample ea ; fr, 4 e : t c c T h ougho ults t Ives t I :e extreme: advantage si he cc-22. cannot kisc twist li e d the Ind le Honour. fend the ' eeme d 4 citen emir; must kt'.lll deed were isistent. fail; and doccm.n.3 ! fiznn l u s g a lis : ethetli h :Fg: e ll".. h Nl : e.: 4 l lf:kree:caiPer nhAc:rob.riteliftr of FEND' "i 1 it was nat ids were— There en crying' n mint L/ had sills America- manager by a d d ~• pro• ; neat might L a foil , at no such .-orneu had ef th e e evidence countenu be gr^t l2l, rated, a Cilled to be wh at b e en the ca e end he cc-, w e e ve r d rationtLy always b or simi:ar and even Can the tie indc ircum,are rotten b dive !c...‘e The P thrown c:.: Able We lean of Lis ; de-camp ill which he Berlin o Neat the i: Fence o of En!lar.d teen h a . ::-teed rf rf last n troub:e 7oung I jections tv ki.ND h; it on the bringing up et La:, aced, that if the Report n As no: rsosit; as he was Obk...!J tti day ae ifessional ditties, Le taa: Me: iortunity of imsviai L , liis 3.11101-1- Irith h of being t o entrust 1: tel% ett I:i;ends to m ove it. hn L'A N suggeoed, that the Hong"uHong" h utai ntleman might now have th: g his clause. v. , 10 0 en brought up. moved a clause, providin::tltst I.r.opc A mitt in the tle made by himctctar fer y e ic.motal had y, authotitv of this Bill, and bray if such record should be min At is ' s dto both Houses of ral:atiar.t. c'at of to the consideration Of a (,OM-'free visions of tie House on th is 13:1. ot 1 ; spoct that this clause aruld he itght it 11:s duty to propote it. lor 1:.s; ::id, that the opir.ion vt-c- tarba tali ti gradin: clauso Repo teed -C \I defi th dest tX ;tremel i ND 11. 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